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HD DVD to Screw Early HDTV Adopters
orionware writes "Apparently the folks who designed the Advanced Access Content System (AACS)for the new HD DVD formats have decided to stick it to the early HDTV adopters. If your set used the older component video, expect to watch your new HD DVD at a quarter of the resolutions. To thwart piracy of course." From the article: "AACS says the new players won't output a full-HD signal from their component-video connections, since those jacks are analog instead of digital and thus have no copy protection. The 'down-rezzed' signals will be limited to a resolution of 960 x 540 pixels -- exactly one-quarter the 1,920 x 1,080 pixels that you'll get through the copy-protected digital connectors on the players. The potentially huge problem with this strategy is that the only HD inputs on a lot of older HDTVs are component video."
That should read
"HDTV adopters screwed by HD-disc rules"
Because I can't see any advantage to the end user by any of these rules.
Will it be easier to make backups - No
Will it be easier to play it on all the devices around your house - No
Will i beable to skip the 2-30 minutes of copyright ads + trailers to watch a movie - No
Will the image quality be higher - Only if you have the right hardware (the confusing HD standard means up and down sampling will reduce the quality even more if you HDTV isn't the right native resolution)
Will you beable to sell the disks on to friends/second hand market - No (At least from my understanding so correct me if i'm wrong)
Will it reduce the cost as no one will be able to pirate anymore - No, This will be hacked within a few months of it coming out the same way CSS was
"If I pirate will my life be easier than going the legitimate route" should be the one question that these media content owners need to answer. And they fail over and over again
Will I boycott HD - Yes
"In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act." - George Orwell
Yeah, we all know how well having a digital stream helps protect content. Most piracy is conducted over the internet, which is digital media? OK. I don't think this is going to stop, slow down, or hamper piracy in any way. It's a way to get more HDTV's sold to the people who were already suckers enough to buy them the first time (videophiles don't count, they always buy the latest thing, I'm talking about regular Joe's who now will hate HD).
Good job, everyone.
stuff |
I must have an old hdtv.... what else is there OTHER than component video?!?
(this is honestly not a troll... but I am posting as AC out of embarassment!!)
Someone is going to make a lot of money selling Chinese digital-to-component adapters for all these HDTV owners - at least if HDTV actually goes anywhere.
Is it just me, or is slashdot lagging digg.com by 3 or 4 days now?
Sam
blog.sam.liddicott.com
well, blu ray FTW...
The war with islam is a war on the beast
The war on terror is a war for peace
Any suggestions?
Doesn't the FCC have anything say in this? Aren't they supposed to be in charge of standards?
Wasn't it supposed to be a national priority to encourage people to adopt HDTV?
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
Well, I'm glad I'm a Sony fanboy. Blu-Ray ftw!
This is actually a benefit for companies selling TV's. Now anyone with an "older" HDTV will have to go out and buy a new one. More profit!
Looks pretty cut-and-dried to me..
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
The old boy network is too busy arguing amongst themselves over which "standard" will reap them the most rewards to spend any real time considering the effect of these decisions on mere consumers...the people who are supposed to lap this stuff up at their local electronics store and video rental outlet....
I think I'll pass.
Ok, so they're going to limit the analog outputs to 1/4th the normal resolution. And what the hell do they think that's going to solve? Most of the people downloading movies are not overly concerned about the quality. Hell, a lot of copies are made by hand held cameras in movie theaters, with plenty of shaky video and noise disturbances from the crowd. Besides, the vast majority of people aren't going to want to download a 20GB file to watch a movie when they can download a 700MB one.
Congratulations, you have prevented nothing.
The laws of probability forbid it!
Companies always seem ready to screw early adopters. Which doesn't make any sense to me, since the early adopters are typically the source of the largest margins in retail spaces. They absolutely have to have it as soon as possible and are willing to pay a premium... only to get burned for it later. It seems to me that you'd want to nurture your early adopters rather than screw them.
#include "forums.h"
int main() {while (bollox) postcount++;}
I'm not too worried though, i will wait. Wait for the second generation of cheaper devices to flow from the secondary players in the DVD player markets (the "no-names"). these most assuredly will have the "secret back-door" keycodes to enable full HD over component.
most of you seem to be missing this: have any of you ever seen a pirate version of a video that had a res as high as the limited hd res?
-- lol pwned
I kind of expected this.
(reviewing notes on Palm I now)
Yup. I won't be buying a newfangled TV until I absolutely have to.
the less the incentive to update the old DVD library. People are used to a certain level of performance and portability; I don't know how quickly they will adopt these new technologies if they are overburdened by DRM crap. Particularly so long as the format is still up in the air.
HDTV resolves YOU lower
Funny sigs make your Karma go down.
Seriously, you would think that they would realize they are facing an uphill battle to convert everyone over to a new format. It seems the goal would be to make it as backward-compatible as possible to win over the fence-sitters (me) and early adopters of then-costly HDTVs, or in my case, a really expensive plasma TV that I sure as hell won't be replacing anytime soon.
Movie pirates watch grainy hand-held movies with babies crying and people coughing and walking in front of the screen while enjoying the recorded-in-a-coffee-can audio. I think 960x540 would be a step up for most of them.
Just another fine example of how honest paying customers get screwed over while those that break the law get a better deal.
It has a remote hack to remove HDCP.
-- You see, there would be these conclusions that you could jump to
I would love to see owners of old HDTVs file class action suits against the vendors of their HDTVs. They were promised higher resolutions, they lead the way to making the costs go down for the people who bought HDTV later. They spend more money and went through more trouble to get HDTV resolutions, but now their getting screwed. And do you really believe that when they were sold the set they were told "sure, your set will do 1080i, but when HD-DVDs come out we won't let you have that resolution.
Specifically I think they should sue companies that made their HDTVs that also signed on to this "Mickey Mouse" copy protection.
The other point is that the millions of HDTV owners that will get screwed over by this have absolutely NO reason to buy and HD-DVD player, ever.
Everytime I hear stories like this I always can envision the future press release that says something like "HD-DVD players not selling well". Well, lets see, you severly limit you product for a large number of your intended customers and its a suprise when they don't buy it? How many people would really buy cars limited to going just the speed limit? Ideally the argument could be made that drivers shouldn't be allowed to break the law. But how many people would actually buy these cars? Thats right absolutely no one.
It's not just HD-DVD, Blue-Ray players will almost certainly do this, and the HD-TiVo that was show at CES in January does this as well. To be fair to Toshiba, the player doesn't force the down-rezing. The _disc_ tells the player to downrez for component. So it's up to the studios to descide if they want to use this feature. http://blog.scifi.com/tech/archives/toshiba_demos_ hd_dvd_confirms_downrez_issue.html
I was not an early adopter, but have a component only HDTV set. To boot, I have a DVD player that upconverts DVDs to near 1080i resolution via component. So, will HD-DVD be SO much better than my current upconverting player that I'll wish I had a more current-gen HDTV? I doubt it. Upconverted DVDs look fabulous to me.
This is shaping up to make the VHS vs Beta wars look like a border skirmish. The real losers are going to be the consumers that suddenly find their beloved $2500 HDTV and $300 HD-DVD they just got has been suddenly obsoleted by some jerk that thinks the entire buying public is a bunch of pirates. Their attitude is that they need all these restrictions just to keep US - the public - honest? Go jump in a lake!
IMHO, the MPAA, RIAA, et. al, are going to make the consumer public so mad that they essentially put themselves out of business. What then? Add more DRM and restrictions to products claiming their plummeting sales are due piracy?
I'll just pass on HDTV until these jerks finally self-destruct and we can get rid of them.
-dh
... if their pirated movie "only" has a resolution of 900x500-something ?
How is this news? It's been known for a long time that the new digital formats will only work over HDMI or DVI with HDCP. Why do you think that any new player that supports the SACD or DVD-Audio formats only provides access to the high resolution multichannel format via 5.1 (or now 7.1) analogue outputs? It's still not possible to take advantage of a digital processor's portentially superior decoding abilities and bass management - you have to rely on whatever's been included in the player itself. Besides the format war, this is one of the other big reasons why these formats never caught on - to listen to them, you'd need a processor or a receiver with 5.1 or 7.1 analogue inputs. Standard RCA, Coax, or Toslink users need not apply. I know that my argument is based on audio formats, but I think anyone looking at HD-DVD or BluRay as a format would have seen the writing on the wall for some time now.
Can I use a DVI-to-Component video or HDMI-to-Component adapter to get around this? Just wondering since I didn't RTFA.
-Nick
"A plan fiendishly clever in its intricacies"- Homer Simpson
They keep finding more toes to shoot off, antagonizing their customers one segment at a time, hoping the remaining customers will be oblivious. Bang at the early adopters, bang at the mass market, bang at the computer users, bang bang bang ... pretty soon they won't have a leg to stand on.
Infuriate left and right
I just polled the 5-10 people within shouting distance of my desk, whether they "care about people who
spent $6000-$9000 on stupid television sets." It's unanimous: 1 loud NO, with the remainder abstaining.
--
This vote was not scientific, and reflects only the opinions of those
users who have chosen to participate. The results cannot be assumed to
represent the opinions of users in general, nor the public as a whole.
(This vote has not been certified by Diebold, Danaher, Sequoia or AVS)
The HDCP requirement is very old news. Upsampling DVD players have the same requirement so it isn't a surpise that the HD media would have it. Equipment manufacturers are probably pretty happy since most early adopters will probably buy new HDTVs.
and I assume the signal voltage levels are different than one volt, since the connector is digital with status leads
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
That's a DVD player, not an HD-DVD player. Totally unrelated to this topic.
PT Barnum would be so proud of what has happened with HD. We've got the hardware producers *and* the government rolling over to the content producers with everyone intent on finding more ways to make the consumers pay more and more often. It's not about cheaper, newer, or better technology.
"See the egress!" of people *not* buying new TVs as they walk out of their electronics store frustrated by the HD cartel.
Why do I get the feeling that there will be an HD 2.0? I think I'll stick with my old TV and if it dies, I'll buy someone elses' old TV.
Betamax anyone?
HD DVD to Screw Early HDTV Adopters
This will only change when the majority of consumers stop respond to these kind of actions with the expected, "Thank you sir, may I please have another."
If HD fails in the marketplace, and I mean utterly fails , the MPAA might start to get the idea.
My mom purchased a Sony HDTV two years ago (I told her to wait because of unresolved issues like these, but did she listen????). It only has HD component ins as HDMI and so on were not even spoken about. I see that Sony is part of the AACS defining group. Well, they advertised that their HDTV was the future of TV (obviously not), and that the component inputs would be capable of accepting HD from future products (that's what the sales guy said). Well, they sold a product that they are now crippling its abilities. Is it possible for early adopters to sue to get compensated for now having to buy a new set just to use HD-DVD or Blu-Ray?
Ironic you meantion the Saturn. It's HDTV compatible. Although the only game to use HDTV was a special version of Bomberman used a promo demonstration... It was never released.
This type of a-hole (analog hole) closing tom foolery is already in place with "upscanning" HDTV players designed to take the 480p and output it at 720p/1080i/etc. You get 720p via digital (so called protected) outputs, but get crap (low rez) out via analog component. In effect the DVD upscaling device you bought is intentionally crippled out of the box.
:(
The end game doesn't look good for fair use, and the ability to move content around freely between devices
E.
Build Your Own PVR/HTPC news, reviews, &
I personally liked the tone of this blog posting.
I really do get tired of companies that think consumers are there for them to screw over, instead of understanding that to be successful they need to be selling what consumers want.
Think Deeply.
Basically since HDCP start showing up on the first sets years ago, we knew this was going to happen with future generations of STB's and DVD formats.
c ps-shiny-red-button/
Here is one of may solutions:
http://www.engadget.com/2005/07/21/the-clicker-hd
Blu Ray will also suffer this down-conversion fate. This makes my TV useless for any new technology as I am sure all future technologies will implement this restriction. Let's see, average disc cost = $20 for HD DVD I would probably buy 100 - 150 the first year alone. Hollywood loses out on $2000 - $3000 from me, the first year alone. http://www.inaniloquent.com/PermaLink.aspx?guid=47 5bef13-f44d-4f70-b922-9c07d8ea632f
I won't have to worry about replacing my huge dvd collection like I did when dvd first came out.
"...try the exact same thing again." Or maybe more appropriately was Ben Franklin's quote: "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."
So they release one copy protection after another, spending gobs of money that translates to increased cost to the end user, and ultimately they're all cracked in less time than it took to develop them. Why not try a different approach for a change, instead of having the audacity to think that eventually you can come up with an unbreakable copy protection?
The bottom line, (imo), is that some people will always pirate, and some will always pay the asking price. Forget about these two groups, and focus on the people in the middle who would buy your product if you simply made an offer they'd be interested in paying for. Piracy is about getting something for less than what you could get it for off the store shelf, and unless you cut costs and lower DVD prices, these people are going to copy/burn/download/bootleg your product unless you make the retail package, (being more than just price) more appealing than the piracy route.
As it stands, what I see here is that you can legitimately buy the DVD, and play it at reduced resolution on your early HDTV, or you can wait for the copy protection to be broken and get a pirated copy that plays at full quality. Where's the incentive for buying your product now??
Perhaps, but screwed early adopters = dead technology anyway. Look at the history of the consumer technology market, and I defy anyone to find me a major exception.
It might be inconvenient for mainstream consumers too, but since their "expert" friends and family (the guys who invested silly money early to play with the new toys) will all be telling them to steer well clear, I doubt the tech will get far enough for that to matter.
However, let's be fair. It is very unlikely that HDTV itself will fail; the quality of HDTV images is genuinely much better than what we have now, and the connectivity is all there for anyone who chooses to use it. Those who do, in a consumer-friendly way, will profit. Just as with on-line music sales, there is a ripe market with a lot of cash to throw around. As soon as someone's smart enough to fill the niche, they'll make a lot of money, and it's just a matter of time before that happens whatever any particular media cartel wants.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
I need to protect my product from piracy, and these are the only measures I can think of to do that. While I recognize your right to first sale is important, so is my right to selling my product. You lose, I win. Thank you, come again.
...but the comments here are light years ahead of digg.
_signature creation failed.
I'll invent a new format! A simple one! A fantastic format that's still as portable as a DVD! Perhaps...yes...I'll put still frames of images on a reel. And it will spin, making the sequential images appear to move! To the drawing table!
This will work to strip the DRM, but it doesn't solve the problem for those of use with HDTVs which only use component inputs. Besides, this will require constant updates since the content producers will be shutting it down weekly with new DRM code.
7 5bef13-f44d-4f70-b922-9c07d8ea632f
http://www.inaniloquent.com/PermaLink.aspx?guid=4
Like I commented to a news.com story a few days ago, why are they so paranoid about component or DVI outputs? I don't know of any capture cards for these connections, so it just seems like these guys are making up fictional things to be afraid of in the really real world. I just don't get it... The news.com story specified DVI as a connection the movie industry was very concerned about for piracy reasons, but I've never heard of a DVI capture card.
I'd looked for a component input capture card a while back as I've got a few laserdiscs I'd like to convert to DVD in the best quality I can. (There's no DVD for sale of these versions of some films, the unmangled original Star Wars set for example) I didn't find one, so I don't see any reason for these shennanigans in the HD industry.
Where's my broom? I call shennanigans on these retards.
This will be better for piracy. Legal HD-DVD will run on 1/4 of the pirated version! Jeez, I just sooo want to spent my money for legal movies... :(((
I own an HDTV and I shudder every time I see those ugly compression artifacts that often make the 1080i image look more like 100x100 pixels. I'd prefer a smooth, artifact-free, full-screen video signal at 640x480 to the crappy-looking 1080.
This is a rehash of all the hoopla that went around months ago when talk started about HDMI monitors. Just to recap, yes, your going to need a tv with the correct connections to watch your HD-DVD player (and your blu-ray), component will either downsample (television) *or* possibly not even show a picture (computer monitor). Your computer will also require a HDMI spec vid card in addition to HDMI monitor to watch protected hi-def content.
I know I went all Banzi about this shit back then. I really don't understand what they are trying to do other than piss people off. Are they trying to curb piracy? Well, duh. Will it work? Not in this lifetime. Why can't they see this? My theory is that it's just a way to prevent casual user piracy (cause we all know that everything will be available in full hi-def glory in all the "usual" places). Problem with it is, the access and usage is getting so screwed that it's actually going to become a roadblock to adoption.
We have enough youth, how about a fountain of SMART?
I was one of the early adopters of HDTV. Do I feel screwed? No, not really. Why? F*ck HD movies, f*ck HD TV channels, I just want my HD video games. Does a movie at 1080i truly have advantages over a standard definition dvd? Not to me.
I need to replace my aging tv soon, and although I'd love and HD tv, and I have the money for one, I'm avoiding HD like the plague until a few years after they get all this crap sorted out. The format is pretty much doomed.
Ugh. You think they could get their info correct. Many companies wanted this option pulled. A few wanted to keep it so now it is an option that the studio can decide to use or not on a particular disc. It will probably be marked on the packaging. Besides AACS isn't even finalized.
F this crap, my vision is bad enough from years of monitor glare that i cant tell the farging difference from 10 ft' away anyhow. I'll keep my regular old tv or just BT the crap i want and watch it on my PC thanks. These jerks can all go fly.
sometimes, i wonder if i'm the only conservative on teh intarweb. ah well, back to mah hogs and warmongerin'....
The million consumer march is scheduled for April 1st, 2007 to
protest how our rights as consumers have been trampled
by business and government.
Remember to bring your suntan oil...
- kds
You make your product sufficiently inconvenient and/or expensive that I decide not to buy it. Some smart chap (or chapette) from China or India starts importing players and media that do not have these restrictions. I buy them from him/her instead or I forego video pleasures for other entertainments. Your stock price goes down, you lose your house in Aruba, and ice weasels kill and eat your children.
You lose, I win.
the major advances in civilization are processes which all but wreck the societies in which they occur - A.N. White
I spent almost $9000 a few years ago an a HDTV compatible projector (a Sanyo PLV70). It has a DVI input, but oh wait. I can't even connect it to my HDTV receiver from Timewarner. It says it misses content protection thing. Right.... So I connect it using component. I do love the quality of the image, it is amazing. Even compared with today's projectors it does seem to do the job pretty well. Besides the fact that it is a rather big projector, but then it is hidden, I don't see ANY reason to change it. Except if one day I move to a smaller place, I would buy a Plasma TV.
I wish people like me had something they could do. All those protection mechanism systems are just insane. At the end they are useless and they only annoy people. The result of this? I will NOT be buying a HD-DVD player, unless I know it has been unlocked and support full resolution on the component... Everybody should do the same.
Garbage in, garbage out.
Yes, HD-DVD or Blu Ray will be that much better.
You can output a DVD through 1080i outputs, but at the same time, the DVD only has so much information in it. The HD-DVD / Blu Ray disc has double or triple the amount of information in it. Yes, sound and video output will be a LOT better.
Just by outputing it over a higher quality signal doesn't make it a higher quality image.
Curiosity was framed; ignorance killed the cat. -- Author unknown
The only legitimate use for this type of product is to violate my copyright to the content I own. I lobby congress to ban media devices which do not support the protection scheme. They willingly oblige, and then crawl back under my desk.
I'm not so sure if it's so simple, as HDTV and HD-DVD are completely different standards. I don't think the DVD Forum is obligated to make HD-DVD compatible with all HDTV's. IMO this is a good thing, hopefully this will cause a backlash against media DRM schemes.
Anyone care to bet that the money from selling bandwidth (which was the original reason for the push) is more than consumed by the subsidy to Asian electronics companies and the MPAA?
[1] No, I'm not fool enough to think that anyone but Congress will get new 52" HDTVs out of this.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
In the interests of limiting piracy by Rebel factions, all future Imperial transport ships will limit their cargo to 5.184 million tonnes, rather than the current 20.736 million tonnes. Standard HDCP fleet escort requirements still apply.
Long live the Empire!
Why not stay away from the entire HDTV thing? After all, by the time copyright suits have had their way HDTV might have been so neutered as to be a complete waste of time. For many folks, HDTV will probably mean a slightly better picture while watching football on a widescreen down the pub, but after a couple of pints of Dogbolter they really won't notice the difference. Until massive LCDs cost a couple of hundred bucks, it really isn't going to be on most folks' radar.
I thought HDTV sounded like a great way to part fools and their money when Paulie Walnuts tried to sell a crock box as "HDTV ready" to some chump on the Sopranos a few years ago. Seems like he may have been well ahead of the game.
Las qué passoun
tournoun pas maï
This will also affect people who have a nice home theatre setup.
People who run componet cable through an older reciever will have to spend
at least a grand on a decent reciever, plus new cableing to match.
I don't need to bother buying a new DVD player, since my current one has the same resolution as the new ones will, seeing as all I have, and will ever use, is component cables...
Sounds to me like these HD-DVD people are just screwing themselves out of all those potential sales...
Oh well.
See subject
--- What?
This is only good news, folks. Those people who were early adopters are going to raise such holy hell - first at Best Buy to the poor schmuck selling High Dev DVD players, then they will call the DVD player makers, then the DVD makers, then their congresscritters.
This will finally be the frist massive fuck you to the consumers by the tiny movie studio industry that will be so blatant and so obvious that even My Mom (tm) will understand that they are being fucked.
Something will have to give, and i guarantee you, it won't be My Dad (tm) buying a new plasma TV - he'll pay $500 for whatever box comes out to hack the problem, just like the descrambler box we had as kids.
Unfortunately, i won't need to, because i held off until that sweet ass Aquos 45" was under $4K.
guns kill people like spoons make Rosie O'Donnell fat.
I'm guessing that the vast majority of HDTVs in existence right now don't have more than 1 HDCP input. What happens when every media source wants to hog it? The cable company, the DVD makers, DRMd internet movie download vendors, etc. are all going to insist on HDCP connections. Do they expect people to plug and unplug cables on the back of their TVs every time they switch playback devices?
DVD's are a huge step forward compared to video tapes, but HD DVD actually doesn't add much to that for most consumers. If they in addition add a lot of limitation in aim to stop piracy people probably not going to by it.
For a nice date: Call strftime(3C)!
... count the owners of analog-input only displays are part of the market they expect to be buying their DRM crippled discs, and use the low sales statistics to "show" there is even more piracy than ever before when asking Congress to establish more draconian laws to let them squeeze everyone for even more money.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
Clearly the ??AA is sewing up the media stream path between their studios and our corneas and eardrums. But this is only going to work in the US, and to the extent that the US can push its laws onto other nations. Given the popularity of the US abroad these days, I don't expect complete success in forcing our IP regimens overseas.
If Bollywood and other foreign media areas don't smell opportunity here, it's because their scent receptors are burned out. Agreed that American media appears to be our one export left, that's no more guaranteed that steel, cars, technology, or weapons were. (Weapons aren't gone yet, but we're working hard in that direction.)
In the long run, I fully expect the rest of the world to thumb their noses at US concepts of DRM, go their own way, and let us stew in our own juices.
Which brings back the subject line...
US citizen goes overseas, likes the media experience over there, tries to bring "foreign version" media and equipment back. Gets prosecuted. Obviously this depends on the scale and wealth of the citizen. If he's really rich, doing it for himself, no problem. If he's mildly rich, and tries to open a botique shop with the stuff, he'll get nailed, and hard.
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
Anyone who was buying and HDTV early on was warned by several sources that their device may not even be compatible with HDTV signals that come over the sir since the standard wasn't fully ratified at the time. There was NO spec for HD DVD and DRM was big news. Anyone who could put 2 and 2 together should have seen this coming. That's why I waited a good long time before even considering HDTV. It's also why I made sure that my HD device was a MONITOR ONLY. The DVI connectors on it support DCHP (yes that's correct) so that the monitor will be recognized as a legitimate viewing source. The only problem I've got now is that my current media center PC is Linux based. We'll have to see if there will be legit HD-DVD software for Linux... if not, I'll have to buy a set top box and use LiRC to control it.
-"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
http://www.comics.com/comics/dilbert/archive/image s/dilbert2006073272217.gif
Dilbert with the current event commentary: Show up early, be stood upon!
I'm disgusted with the high cost of content, and furious with the over-zealous DRMs that are already present in DVD usgage. Clearly it will be worse with HDTV - its entirely likely that I simply wont bother to upgrade to HD format. You may say "oh but you wont be able to watch ANYTHING", I'll say "so what?" I suspect that internet-based on-demand video is going to be the preferred alternative to CATV/HDTV for enough people that DRM restrictions will be eased in order for the hardware mfg's to remain competitive. Or, if the legal restrictions prevent them, the HDTV implementation will be inconsequential and eventually die like OS2.
The only PT Boat Journal on the web: http://www.PT171.org
Why would you complain? I see this as a huge money-making opportunity. As soon as I read this story, I went down to my workshop and started designing an HD-DVD player with a fake record button that emits a stream of poisonous gas when pressed.
This weekend, I'm having my buddies over to brainstorm exploding HD-DVD players, smoking HD-DVD players, hand-grabbing finger-chopping HD-DVD players, and the pièce de résistance, the farting HD-DVD player. All will have fake record buttons and exhibit behavior designed to train users to stop their appalling thievery in a totally acceptable way.
I expect the MPAA to offer me big buck$ to randomly replace real HD-DVD players with these fine babies!
China has no respect for copyright and is probably responsible for 99% of the piracy in the world. That's where the industry needs to direct its concern to, not your average joe consumer. Kick China out of the WTO and boycott their products until they decide they want to behave like a good world citizen!
Considering the volume of theater cams and low-res DVD rips available from any give torrent site, exactly how do they think this will stem piracy at all?
Possible responses of your average movie pirate:
A) "Oh no, I can't find a copy of the movie at 1920 x 1080, I guess I'll just have to go out and buy it!"
B) "Well, crap. No hi-res, looks like I'll just have to watch this 960 x 540 version."
C) "I have seen the error of my ways! I repent my sins of piracy! Forgive me, lords of MPAA!"
And you can't forget D:
D) "Huh...they've got a full HD-DVD rip out for the movie I want. Damn that's a huge file. Better go get a cup of coffee. In France."
120 characters for a sig? That's bloody useless.
Go to store. Buy HD-DVD and HD-DVD player. open box, plug in. Note that you're not seeing HD quality picture. Return all items to store (opened, of course:). Repeat. endlessly. At every store you know.
:-D
If we all do this, imagine the losses. And the stores will return these malfunctioning units to the manufacturers, so the stores won't be the ones hurt.
Of course, then the MPAA/RIAA will bitch and moan about massive losses....
The cesspool just got a check and balance.
You know what else is pretty damn satisfying? Using VLC to play any region, any format DVDs, upscaled to 720p. It looks fantastic, nearly as good as a true high-def video. I have no reason to "upgrade" to a high-def video format, as DVD is plenty good enough, and I can actually watch whatever movies *I* want to watch, instead of just the movies the studios think Americans want.
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
Some random points that occur to me:
The bottom line is that it doesn't matter. HD-DVD and Blu-Ray will die if they can't clearly show superiority to DVD and their competition. Doing what they are doing, they will fail to show superiority to DVD in many installations. They're stillborn.
Now, you have to keep in mind that, as a Slashdot reader, you are part of a minority. You are technologically literate, and probably willing to dish out more than most people to get better technology. The majority don't care about the technology, just as long as they can see something. Hell, quite frequently they don't even care whether or not the aspect ratio is right, or know what an aspect ratio is! The view with which you and I approach technology is going to be skewed, period. We are technophiles, and most of our friends are technophiles. Most importantly, we who would be interested in this technology if it weren't such a clusterfuck are the minority.
HD-DVD and Blu-Ray will die.
www.wavefront-av.com
Why do you Americans insist on that crappy Y, R-Y, B-Y component video? It's still encoding-sensitive; and it has to go through a decoding matrix, for crying out loud. What's wrong with RGB? It is completely PAL/SECAM/NTSC agnostic {though sensitive to line and frame rates}, and RGB is what gets fed more or less directly to the electron guns of the picture tube; there is no decoding matrix anywhere in sight.
We have had SCART {aka PERITEL} in this country since the 1980s. This 21-pin connector, found on every colour TV set, provides a composite or RGB connection, and does so transparently: the same pin in the connector used for a timing signal in RGB mode, is used for a composite picture signal in composite mode. RGB-capable appliances such as DVD players and games console put out an RGB signal on the RGB pins, a full picture on the timing pin, and take both the "RGB" and "external" pins high. Mode switching {internal receiver, composite or RGB} is done using analogue voltages on two other pins {one for internal/external, and one for external is composite/external is RGB. Yes, that does apparently give a fourth mode, for which behaviour is undefined}. Now, if the TV set supports RGB, then it will sense the RGB switching signal and use the RGB picture; otherwise it will ignore the RGB switching signal but still see the "use external source, not internal receiver" signal and use the composite picture on the timing pin. Appliances such as VCRs, which produce only composite video, do not present an RGB switching signal. The standard also calls for mono audio, if that is all the appliance supports, always to be presented on both audio output pins.
Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
Quote: "If HD fails in the marketplace, and I mean utterly fails , the MPAA might start to get the idea."
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha !!!!!!!!!!!
You must be overmedicated.
I wrote an indepth article in 2002 for god sakes.. and made it clear that if HDCP went forward in anyway those of us with CRT's or HDTV early adopters would be screwed.. The industry was pissed at the article. Even more scarry was the blatent coverup by the industry. They knew that if the consumer was educated on the plans for HD content, no one would spend $5000 on a TV that wouldn't be able to get HD content.
- article-digital-home-video-2-2002.html
I know for a fact that they kept silent, and were shipping products they knew would be useless in a matter of years.
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_9_1/feature
It's a decent article if I do say so myself.
Sony has patented a technology that allows for Blu-ray discs to be designed such that they lock themselves to the first player they are played on. I don't know the technical details of how it works, but that's the functional end of it. Now, of course, this does not mean that Blu-ray players will end up working this way, but it does give one pause. Why would they develop such a thing? It seems a likely reason would be to deploy players where you couldn't resell discs. You buy a disc, it locks to you, you never play it elsewhere.
How it is actually implemented (if it is implemented at all) remains to be seen.
I am almost certain the players from the likes of Apex, GO-VIDEO, Sansui, HongKongPhooey, whoever.. are going to have (just as the generation before) "accidental" backdoors included. One such will be the ability to pipe 1080i through the component portion of the unit.
You think China is every going to get kicked out? Too many fat white guys getting rich for that to happen.
I'll just buy my DMCA-violating equipment in NYC...heh heh heh
Blar.
i'm sure high-res pirated DivX will work fine ont this equiment...
:)
when will they deter ppl from piracy by providing a seducing legal order? One more step in the wrong direction..
bah who cares.... Won't by HD till their DRM has been cracked, so that i hack a DVD i bought to play it on my TV
As an owner of a upsampling DVD player(the Samsung HD841 that has been a popular topic around here), yes, the image of a true 1080i image will be superior to an upsampled 480p to 1080i image.
Upsampling uses algorithyms to predict what the pixels will look like. It's like scanning in a picture at 300dpi and 600dpi. Use your favorite photo editing program to convert the 300 dpi image to 600dpi. You will see artifacting, or loss of clarity in the converted image in comparison to the 600dpi image.
Some upconverters, like the DVDO iScan HD+, will have good looking images, if you have $1,500 to spend on it. DVD players that include upsampling technolgy, are no where near as good as an external box like the iScan.
The other question is what is the native resolution of your display? Most HDTVs, under $2,000, have a native resolution of 720p, so they need to downsample all 1080i or p images to 720p. If you upconvert your DVD to 1080i then the TV downsamples it to 720p, you would have been better off upsampling to just 720p(or feeding the TV the 480p video, then have it do the upconversion...you will have to do some experimenting to figure out which works best).
Take a 320x240 image in Photoshop or Gimp or whatever you use, and stretch it to 2048x1536. You tell me if it looks good. That's the same thing that's going on with a DVD upsampler. It's creating new data by interpolating existing data. Any visual improvement you see is in your head, and in fact the image quality is at best the same as the DVD before being upsampled. It's exactly like taking a 64 Kbit mp3 and upsampling it to 192 Kbit. You don't get better quality from upsampling.
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo!
At least at this time, I don't think it can be made all that cheap. That converter is actually going to have to be an active device with some deceant circutry. You have to accept HDMI/DVI in, with HDCP, decode that, then feed it through some high bandwidth D/A converters, amplify and output that. Given the price of devices that do similar things (DVI to VGA for computers, for example) I'm not optimistic on pricing.
Furthermore, each studio has a different opinion about ICT. In an ironic twist, Fox Studios---the one who typically is the most severe about copy protection---has publicly stated that they don't intend to use ICT.
So there is real potential for market pressure to keep ICT from being used widely. If people boycott just those titles that employ ICT, there could be real incentive for studios to wake up.
It's going to piss off a lot of early adopters, people who have been trying to prepare for the switch to digital TV and HDTV, which has been mandated by Congress. I'd bet that this issue eventually gets dealt with via more legislation. I don't think that's the best solution; but, once individual members of Congress and their constituents start getting screwed over, they're likely to act. Unfortunately it may be too late by then...
Hasn't this been know for well over a year? And Blue-Ray is doing the same thing.
There's many posts pointing out that even the analog inputs are putting out better quality picture than dvd, and that this will be enough for most pirates. When you think about it, they could have completely plugged the "analog hole"; the legal consumers with component-only HDTVs would have been screwed either way. Maybe leaving some avenue of pirating the media is a concession aimed at deterring people from cracking&pirating the copy protection (as the unprotected analog picture is good enough for most pirating), thus leaving the higher resolutions to paying customers. Are the media corporations finally realising that piracy can never be completely prevented?
You just gave me yet another reason for NOT buying an HDTV. Nintendo is the other reason (and they're right - Xbox 360 looks like crap... hi-res crap, but crap anyway)
Congratulations! You get the pleasure of saying "Fuck you, I'm not buying another HDTV set just to make you happy!" when someone tries to sue/whatever you for using the Chinese decryption+D/A converter thingy. No pain no gain, of course, but that's life.
The same companies have gotten away with region coding for years, and that's a pretty clear violation of international trade laws, specifically the WTO Agreement on Technical Barriers to Trade section 2.2.
e .htm
http://www.wto.org/english/docs_e/legal_e/17-tbt_
I'm kinda surprised the EFF hasn't shown any interest in pursuing this.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
can we get an {{NPOV}} on that?
Since when has this country used intellectual elite as a pejorative term?
If they introduce DRM like that I will most definitely pirate everything from that point on. I've always been a good consumer, paying for all my movies. But when they pretty much beg you to pirate the media since it is so unusable in its DRM'd form, there's really no other choice.
Congratulations.
Just because you build it doesn't mean the consumer will come.
Investing billions of dollars in technology which nobody buys costs you a FUCK of a lot more than piracy.
I think a big dose of reality is headed towards The Man pretty soon.
One of the reasons iTunes works is that the DRM is reasonably non-intrusive. One billion songs. Count 'em, RIAA, count 'em.
I'm not wrong. You haven't thought about it hard enough.
1. You get a coupon for the company's products.
2. The company gets a tax writeoff.
3. Some lawyer triple their call girl and cocaine budget.
The class action lawsuit is the invention of unemployed lawyers.
If HD DVD is outlawed, Only outlaws will watch HD DVDs
Listen, at the end of the day, you don't *need* to have the latest Movie or whatever. Media is not a necessary part of life. Stop buying the MPAA's and RIAA's stuff plain and simple. I think their monopoly is going to be worn away eventually anyways. It's not nearly as expensive to create media as it used to be. And the young up & comers are going to grow up with a severe disdain for those companies.
Some are going to be quite talented, and some may even have associates who are talented actors, etc. Eventually some decent shows will be released and distributed entirely outside of the MPAA and RIAA reach. It's already happening with music a lot, and with video it is underway as well.
One day the indi version of Star Trek, or heck even Friends is going to pop up. It will become wildly popular and the creators will retain full distribution rights. It will have been created by artists and techies sick of hearing about the MPAA and RIAA so they will gladly keep it away from them. (Plus they will get to keep more money in their own pockets anyways) This success story will be the first of many nails in the MP/RIAA coffins. People say, "hey space adventure is a great show, I bet I could do that too..." There'll be lots of crappy shows which will fizzle and fail. But the best and most popular will do well.
I can even see a broadcast station picking up some of these shows, getting rid of the mainstream stuff and making their own ad deals etc. If they can do this then it opens up indi stuff to the wide world of media consumers and not just tech junkies.
The deal is at the end of the day, this isn't bread we're talking about, or power, or water. These are luxuries and consumer goods that people choose to buy.
Not quite so. Of course buying a Samsung HD841 won't help in this case, but it may be fair to assume that a real HD-DVD player in the future will have the same kind of hack to allow full rez even through component. Cheers
"Companies Puzzled by Lack of Consumer adoption of HD-DVD".
"Industry stagnates on HD-DVD sales".
"'No Thanks!' Consumers happy with current DVDs."
Part of the reason DVDs caught on so quickly was because of the portability and convenience. If companies continue to restrict this technology, I don't see any reason to adopt.
This week on slashdot
"HD DVD to Screw Early HDTV Adopters"
next week on slashdot:
"Blu-Ray to Screw Early, Mid-Phase, Late and even Non-HDTV adopters"
When the posters fear their moderators, there is tyranny; when the moderators fears the posters, there is liberty.
Why not also make it a requirement that you have to show a ticket stub when you purchase a movie in HD DVD to prove that you have also payed you dues to the theater chains as well? HD DVD will further obsolete movie theaters, making the viewing experience that much better(and cheaper) at home.
Also, Doesn't the filesize of an HD movie make it an impractical enough thing to download? I know thats only a temporary thing, But Anyone who forks out the bucks for an HD TV and an HD DVD player isn't going to settle for crappy compressed DIVX movies, sure, there will always be those bottom-feeders out there who do it, but that has always been the case(in the 80's, people who had huge libraries of recorded VHS tapes for movie collections)
In fact, a couple of months ago, I wrote an email to all of my congressman for my area, expressing this view point to them, because there was legislature at the time being considered.
Maybe I should contact the biggest class action lawyer in the country and ask him about it, after all, he lives about 6 miles from here.
I'm thinking of buying a LCD HDTV 1280x768 now.
The required interfaces: VGA + SCART (S-Video), DVI nice-to-have
I'm not buying any HDMI / HD-DVD crap until it's cracked and DRM-free.
Where's the time you could buy two pieces of hardware and with the max of some resistors, capacitors and inductors, could connect them and play nicely together ... without breaking _any_ laws ...
Where is it?
How comes I cannot connect a single piece of hardware in my house without hitting a 'for-the-sake-of-copyright-protection' incompatibility issue?
Where's my promised home media system that connects every hardware in my house?
Tristan.
Sure the new sets cost maybe a fifth of what they paid on day one, and have better picture quality to boot. If you have plasma, it's pretty well burned out by now anyway.
Still, if they decide to revolt the politicians will have to listen. And this whole copy protection issue is political. If Washington said "NO" to it, it won't happen.
Let the fireworks begin!
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
I'm just going to get rid of my analog TV and go back to doing what I did in college... READ BOOKS.
There is a great interview with Mark Knox from Toshiba regarding the HD DVD format in which he discusses the copy protection, MPAA etc. Long, but a good read.
I just purchased an HD LCD and am NOT planning on duplicating my DVD library on HD. They are not making the content very appealing to own. Why buy something that severely limits your options? If anything, I'll get some sort of player and just depend on Netflix for content. The last thing I need is another copy of the Star Wars trilogy.
I have enough complexity in my life to add any more. HD is simply too must confusion, hassle and financial risk to invest in. I'm sticking with my old setup as long as I possibly can.
I'm having a bit of trouble with this one, especially since I just bought a high definition television. My understanding is that the 1080i standard is about the second best on the market right now, and the best that's not ludicrously expensive. This provides a maximum resolution of 1920x1080. It's a slightly older standard (by about a year I think?), and high-definition TVs are only recently coming into the mainstream.
"Early adopters" would be defined as the people who spent stupendous amounts of money on earlier versions of HDTVs say, 3 years ago, would it not?
"No problem. I have the capacity to do infinite work so long as you don't mind that my quality approaches zero."-Dilbert
Actual numbers of people attending movies in theaters is down. Revenues are up, becaue of higher prices, but the Internet is taking away from more passive forms of entertainment. TV's been bitching about declining overall ratings for years.
When a new media is introduced it hurts the old media, at least initially. Lots and lots of people are spending time in front of screens, but more of those screens have keboards attached and those people aren't watching movies and TV shows. They're more and more likely to be reading, arguing, or hacking at dragons.
the major advances in civilization are processes which all but wreck the societies in which they occur - A.N. White
How do I find out if this will affect my TV? (I'm at work so I don't know the model number). Is there a list somewhere? Is there a cutoff date where after a certain manufacture date everything is cool?
I like watching DVDs, and I have a great longing for the legendary "Home Theatre" with all the mood lighting, high-lumens projector, eleventy-billion-dot-one surround sound, etc... But, news like this really makes me feel great that I'm a lazy, slow adopter to new technology. Hell, my main TV in my house doesn't even have S-Video. I don't have cable, so all I watch is local broadcast, or DVD's. Anyway, I laughed at everyone who had problems with their XBOX 360 when it came out, and I'm laughing now at the early HDTV adopters. How many people had to upgrade their DVD burners because of incompatibilites? How many people had to support BlackBerries when they were introduced? (Not me, but I heard many a grumble from my co-workers who had to deal with them.) I can't say I have any patience for early adopters and their complaining. Yes, it sucks to be them, but they also call it "bleeding edge" for a reason.
There's HDMI and DVI. You have to be careful with DVI though, because not all DVI inputs are HDCP compliant.
Consumer to providers: I think I've got the HDCP, ABDC, xyZ, and HIJKLMNOP, you say I ned the QWQrs3tr2qyGDJDvd too? Fuggit, I just wanted to watch a movie!! Let's see what Joe downloaded last night!
I don't follow the technology behind this, but as this news breaks I become more interested. So the DVD player outputs a digital signal. If I'm lucky, my TV has a digital input. If I'm not, what's stopping me from using a DAC? I understand there's some encryption going on, but I'm not sure what kind. Why can't my DAC do the decryption? Or is it as simple as a bandwidth limitation on my old TV? Do these new electronics have embedded keys? If so, how are they shared? Who's responsible for assigning them?
It seems reasonable that I should be able to (legally) obtain a device to perform all of the necessary operations externally to support my legacy device.
ascii art
Here are two reasons why reducing the resolution won't work (and will only hurt honest consumers who early-adopted HDTV):
1. Converter boxes will be sold that will take in an HDMI signal and output component video at full resolution.
2. Look at mp3, it was very successful even though it sounded worst than CDs. Why? Because people really care about good songs, not just songs that sound good. The same happens today with movie downloads over the Internet: People download low-quality versions of movies because they care about the movie and not about how good it looks. Of course, people DO want the highest quality version possible, but this is AFTER they get good *content*. Lowering the resolution to one quarter will still be good enough for almost anyone who wishes to copy the movie.
Bottom line: The movie industry should lower their ridiculous prices (say, movies for $5 dollars) and then they will almost completelly put an end to piracy, as most people will rather spend $5 to own a high-quality version of the movie (along with extra features) than spend the time to download it in lower quality.
It is not completely unreasonable to imagine a high-end A/V receiver with HDMI/DVI inputs and the capability to "upconvert" all input to HDMI/DVI/Component. My current SONY receiver can upconvert all analog signals to 480i over the component out. The receiver does not have HDMI or DVI inputs, but I suspect A/V receivers with HDMI support will be more common after HD-DVD / BluRay penetrate the market.
:)
Early adopters were already screwed when they bought displays which often had less than 2/3 the necessary vertical resolution to display a 1080 picture... unless they bought a CRT, which can actually display an interlaced picture, and the full 1080 lines.
It makes me laugh when I think about the issue. The RIAA has long accepted lossy analog copies of CDs and cassette tapes, as has the MPAA when it comes to VHS tapes. Not that they really had a choice, but they get in a hissy when consumers can make a lossless copy or transcode the original audio/video source. Component video is an analog format, which makes perfect copies impossible to begin with.
I am not complaining however, as both of my TVs have HDMI inputs and support HDCP. I would like to see HDMI switchboxes or A/V receivers with HDMI inputs though, since my TVs only have 1 HDMI input and I already own 3 devices with HDMI output... on the bright side, I only have to swap 1 cable when I switch between my DVD changer and computer
The backlash assumes that
1) your HD-DVD is encoded at 1080i which it may not be - 720p content is entirely possible and a lot of "720p" content is barely 900x500 in resolution anyway due to overscan borders, extra widescreen bars
2) everyone is going to be pissed off at playing 720p content at non-noticably lower resolutions
3) OMG you never watched a DVD at such a low resolution
It seems like a fairly okay downsizing. It's still an advantage to have an HDTV (over SD or ED) but you might want to invest in HDMI at some later date. Remember when you had to buy a new HDTV so you could connect your brand new satellite/cable HDTV box up to it anyway? Yeah because your standard CRT TV was useless. You may have "early adopted" that box less than 18 months before to get progressive scan DVD and Playstation gaming, but you still got rid of it to get an HDTV, right?
Early adoption is all about taking the RISK of having new things come out later.
If we all want to live in a status quo universe where we can safely watch movies at a "normal" resolution without fear of ever having new technologies to make you pine for, let's go back to 100-line black and white with mono audio?
There are two different types of DVI you see with computers. DVI-I and DVD-D. DVD-D connectors output digital only, DVI-I output analogue as well. GRaphics cards, at least all the ones you'll ever normally encounter, have DVI-I outputs. They are identifiable by the little 4-connector bisected connector on one end. You can see it noted in the picture here (http://www.heise.de/ct/04/26/224/bild.jpg). So, out of one port the card outputs both Digital data for DVI, and analogue data for RGB.
All the adapters do it take the analogue data and convert the pins to VGA format. This is not an actual converter, like the one you'd need for HDTV.
Don't get me wrong, I'm as opposed to AACS as the next guy, but exactly how many "early adopter" screens are even capable of full 1080p HD resolution? Even today, only the biggest (other than computer monitors) can do the full shebang; I would expect even fewer of the early adopter generation screens can do the same. That's no excuse, of course, and I could be wrong anyway.
A violation to the DMCA, in the US, yes. However, there are about 6 billion people outside the US, so for the vast majority the DMCA does not apply.
one of the fun features of AACS allows it to revoke/disable the keys of any "hacked" players. The minute that hack is common knowledge, your player is now worthless. (probably via hidden firmware updates in new discs, like Ps2 games have been known to do)
It doesn't have to kill sales if you start locking after everybody has adopted.
The first 2 years of content could be lock free, so lots of people buy the hardware and content. Then they start shipping content that locks to players.
To implement a content-to-player lock must require either by a "phone home" or writeable disc. In the case of "phone home" they could lock up a user's entire library before they knew it was possible. Sure it will be hackable but not legally and not easy enough for the majority of users.
This guy, at least is really pissed.
Found this from theInquirer.net. I'd like to see much more awareness from the general public. Once a powerful DRM scheme gets it's foot in the door it's too late. The general public is the only one getting screwed here. Serious consumers will find a way around the DRM scheme the lazy and uninformed force on them.
Just buy chinese HD players when they come out. You know they won't be adhering to all the "rules" made for the players
All this hoopla about nothing really. Just don't buy HD anything. That has been my policy, and I'm glad I have old fashioned tech. I had no intention of purchasing HD anything because this has outcome has been predicted for years. I have likewise discouraged others from placing their bets when such stupid outcomes were likely.
The reality of this is that a bunch of "must have latest gizmo" yahoos broke thier piggy bank thinking the industry was going to hand them everything on a silver platter. Well, reality is now coming to roost. Those with the busted piggy banks figure out if HD or BR rulz, OK? While your at it, could you figure out where reasonable use dies so I can stay on this side of it? Something tells me that I will be buying standard DVDs for some time to come.
Sig under construction since 1998.
And, they have the bucks to go buy a new set that supports whatever DRM comes out. I know I am one of them but I won't bend. I am keeping my Panny with Component Inputs. I think this new crop of HD DVD players will die like Divx did, it's way too restrictive for consumers. I think consumers can only take so much. The content providers are going a bit too far with this one. I don't think the law can help us either. In a free economy, the seller can peddle anything they want and the buyers are free to buy whatever they want. No one held a gun to my head to buy my now hobbled HD set. Market forces should make everything right though. Depends on how many sales they'll get for their DRM-laden HD DVD players. I can definitely see a firmware upgrade 1-2 years into it to turn off some of the crazy DRM. CZ
The problem here isn't people with DVI but no HDCP. I suppose that exists, but in the home theatre market is very rare (it's fairly common in the computer market though). The problem is people with no DVI AT ALL. I'm in that boat. The HDTV I have is a real, no shit, full rez HDTV. Does 1080i and everything, looks beautiful on Discovery HD. However, it only has component inputs for HD. No DVI. It was built prior to DVI really being a big thing and, being a tube, is analogue in nature anyhow.
So what I'd need to get HD rez from an HD DVD is an outboard DAC that would take the DVI signal and convert it to component for me. That's expensive, at least for now. I think I'll opt for the "Fuck you, DVD looks good enough, I don't want your crippled peice of shit" option personally.
Disney, IBM, Intel, Microsoft, Panasonic, Sony, Toshiba, and Warner
At least it's not that second-rate, plastic, mass-produced "evil" - this is first rate, industrial-grade evil.
Oh BTW, good luck breaking the encryption - I know it's possible, but given the current state of encryption technology, any successful attach will almost certainly involve analyzing and back-engineering the chipsets which ship with commercial units. I'm sure most of you know that this is going to be impractical (even if there weren't safeguards in place to prevent even that extreme measure).
Just as big a problem is the lack of video distribution systems for copy-protected HD video. Today I can have an HD player or satellite box in one room and watch the output on a TV in another room using component video distribution technology. For copy protected HD signals there's really no good video distribution system.
Great, so now my $3500 HDTV that I bought only two years ago won't be able to display HD DVD content in its full resolution. Glad I was an early adopter on this... It is bad enough that my set has Firewire jacks on it that nobody makes hardware for, now my component 1080i jacks are useless too.
I guess I'll just either watch movies for pennies on HBO-HD or Cinemax-HD, and wait until someone makes a nice capture card that'll allow capture off component video 1080i and build a nice HTPC box to store HD movies off cable.
There's always going to be a workaround, but it seems that the content creators don't want me to buy their content. Not only that, but the hardware folks don't want me to buy their hardware since it'll down-res on my display.
Where's the upside for the consumer in all this crap?
Luckily today's movies suck anyways, so by saving my money I'm better off without all this mess.
so that's why I waited for HDMI. One thing that they don't mention is that those early HDTV adopters wouldn't have 1080p TVs anyway, so it's closer to half the resolution as opposed to a quarter.
Remember DIVX? DVDs which cost more, self destruct so you don't have to take them back to the rental store and so the rental store owner has every incentive in the world to not stock them, and the payers cost more so that you can add a phone line to them so they are registered to the first player that plays them.
Consumers avoided it like the plague.
This sounds like a replay of DIVX, and consumers will avoid it like the plague. If it is forced down their throats by monopoly legislation, even one percent of consumers raising a stink will sink it.
DRM is useless unless totally in control from disc to brain, and anything that bad is doomed.
Infuriate left and right
Class Action Suit.
Insert witty sig here.
That would be even stupider. Not only would the general public turn to pirating over the 'net, but the lawyers would unleash such a slew of anti-trust, consumer protection, and conspiracy lawsuits that the movie industry would be forced to switch back after massive losses on all fronts.
Are they really that stupid? (Don't answer that.)
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
If HD-DVD's really get locked to one player, then their business model pretty much goes in the toilet, right? They won't be able to offer HD through their service, only standard DVD's or maybe HD-DVD's that play at lower resolution.
Seriously, these new HD DRMed formats are setting themselves up for failure. I feel that Sony, Toshiba et al must must think that their prospective buyers are really stupid. It's almost offensive just how low these companies are willing to go to protect their profit margins, especially when there are so many better ways to do it.
While I'm busy boycotting these new formats, I'll be waiting for stuff like this to hit the mainstream and become as simple and widely-used as this or this.
P.S.: For what it's worth, Apple is a member of the Blu-Ray Disc Association. Are they thinking of an application of the technology that could be tied to iTunes (download movie, burn, watch on your TV,) or just going with the flow of capitalist greed and not counting on the success of the format?
Initially this kind of pissed me off, but considering that I won't be able to afford an HDTV until after I graduate and that the next generation DVD formats will under AACS output higher resolutions anyway, I think it's an okay compromise. Once again, it just sucks to be an early adopter.
A class-action lawsuit would be totally appropriate in this case. Also, who's to say that at some point, someone (ie, the producers of the television sets without digital inputs that lost the court battle, or a random hacker) manufactures a DAC that will crack HDMI and convert the signal to full analog component glory? It's a long shot, but hey.
Also, this article fails to mention that the downconversion can be turned off at the option of the individual movie studio. It seems like every other news source that has reported on this story mentions that some studios will not support the downconversion and some will. Satellite providers have had the option for years to downconvert with analog, but they have not done so yet. Maybe we need to have a little more cautious faith in these companies.
These sorts of rules are only going to have one effect - to annoy people. The rulemakers don't seem to be able to see that in actual fact, they're probably making piracy a little simpler - most people who watch piraated movies are willing to sacrifice some quality for the fact its free, and for the fact its quicker to download. By outputting a lower resolution, they're just making it easier for anyone to encode to divx and distribute it. If they output at the full resolution, they would restrict those able to do that to people with more patience and higher end hardware. And those people would just end up downgrading the quality to make it easier for people to download anyway. So it seems to me all they're going to do is annoy people.
Funny thing is though, the downgraded signal is still fairly high resolution, and would probably be more suitable for pirate Internet distribution. Of course, piraters will still just build equipment to rip the original digital data, scale that how they see fit, in order to optimize quality and size to their own preference.
Again, if you can see and / or hear it, you can copy it. And it's very, very easy. Laughably easy.
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
Pirate HD-DVD will be available everywhere as soon as the market is worth the pirates' time to break in. The price-fixing cartel thinks that they'll make more than enough to cover the losses by making as many honest people as possible pay twice for the same content or just plain old pay monopoly prices once.
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
Market the product at hugely inflated prices to early adopters. Change the system slightly and tell the early adopters about the fantastic new features in the new product. Sit back and sell the same product to the early adopters all over again.
Oh well, what the hell...
Most of today's holywood releases are plagued with warning screens, trailers, advertisements, and prohibited user operations, plus they're region coded so you can only play them in certain areas. A pirated DVD has all that stripped away. You can play it anywhere, and once inserted you can go straight to the menu, and from there straight to the movie. So there's a BIG incentive to go for pirated movies, even if you don't care about the price. Every movie I have ever bought, I have had to decrypt, "clean up" with DVDRemake, and then burn back to a disc. Sometimes I wonder why I don't just skip the proccess and get pirated versions in the first place.
There is a "Contact Us" form on the HD DVD Promotion Group's website.
I just told them that I would buy neither HD DVD content nor devices if it doesn't work with my two existing component/DVI HDTV television sets. I suggest you all do the same.
There exists no way of exchanging information without making judgments. --Bene Gesserit Axiom
First of all, isn't this story a dupe? I've known about this for weeks now.
But anyway, my point today is that not only are non-HDCP TVs SOL, but it's likely that current HDMI/HDCP "1.0" TVs will eventually be left out as well. From what I understand, the equipment manufacturers are already on to about v1.2 by now, but it's hard say since they can't all agree on the details. People are already seeing compatibility issues between specific models of player and display devices, and it's only likely to get worse.
None of this matters, the whole point of getting the new HD players is to get 1080P. Most every current or past HDTV doesn't support 1080P. So any early adopters without HDMI inputs must get a new HDTV anyway to reasonably use the new HD players.
Most people only have 720P devices anyway. I would almost guarantee that 99.9% of people can't tell the difference between 540P and 720P.
When HDTVs came out there was already talk of needing some form of copy protection on the connectors, and that there would be a new standard "at some point in the future": that's the main reason why I, and others I know, decided to wait until the dust settled before making the switch to HD.
Early adopters are such a minority in this case that I strongly doubt there will be any concessions made: in any case, if you bought one of the first plasma screens that came out, probably now it's already nearly time to replace it due to the gas discharge etc. etc.
-- the cake is a lie
I'm not a fan of this decision, but quite frankly I don't mind. Realistcally, when I'm streaming a 1080p signal to my HDTV coming from a digital source (such as an HD-DVD player, PS3, Blu-Ray, etc) it would be -crazy- to use anything other than the HDMI (high definition multimedia interface) cables that this article is referencing. Honestly, using analog component would be tantamount to using a wireless audio connection for your speakers instead of an optical output... Especially when you consider the amount of data being moved in hd video vs audio.
The real way that we earlier adopters, and the semi earlier adopters (like myself) get screwed is through the -lack- of inputs. In time, everything will go to copy protected digital inputs like HDMI, but many TVs only have 1 input. So between my HD PVR, PS3, HD-DVD Player, Output from my PC (maybe even throw in a 360) I have -ONE- HDMI input and so do many other people. Even the highest end commercial DLP HDTVs currently only have 2 HDMI inputs. It's just simply not enough.
And that's to say nothing about the impending HDCP debacle!
Please don't misunderstand---I think this sucks, and I definitely support a boycott of ICT-enabled discs. (As I pointed out in another post, ICT is optional, and will be enabled on a studio-by-studio basis; and some studios have already said they will not use it.)
However, many of those same first-gen HDTVs with only component inputs are already crippled, in the sense that they really only extract 540 lines of resolution from a 1080i signal (because they do only "bob" deinterlacing of 1080i content). As a result, only the loss in horizontal resolution will be apparent, if that.
Right now I use that DVI input for a 480p display from a PC running Windows 2000 so that I can watch anime fansubs (the subtitles are much clearer than over S-video), and when I watch HDTV, I usually set the ATSC tuner to downconvert wide-screen HD into a letterboxed 4:3 picture rather than go into squeeze-scan. This means that I'm getting a picture with less resolution than 480p when watching HD, like laserdisc but with the component color of DVD. The extra resolution just isn't that important to me after getting the nice clear picture.
My point is to look at the smashing success of both SACD and DVD-A. I'm sure the RIAA would love for the market to switch to either of those formats. As far as I know, neither format has been cracked, but that may be due to the general lack of interest in either of those formats as much as anything else.
The only thing I want HD-DVD for is as a high-capacity backup medium. And I wouldn't be surprised to hear of people eventually using HD-DVD to make "backups" of 2-5 regular DVDs, along with the appearance of reverse DVD shrink programs to make it easy. Because if you watch it in your living room at a reasonable viewing distance, it's not going to look all that much better to the average person, especially over age 40.
--
"Open source is good." - Steve Jobs
"Open source is evil." - Microsoft
DRM is the entertainment industry's Vietnam. The guy that loses is the one on the ground. They should know when to quit, but like my moma always said, 'there's no cure for stupid'.
If someones DVD updates the firmware on a piece of equipment that I OWN then they had better be prepared to either buy me a new one (especially if their update breaks it) or get sued. Remember the Sony debacle.
Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
Screw it all, the old HD TVs aren't even good for making a cool fish tank.
Maybe a boat anchor?
1 year ago my old venerable 36" tube started flaking out on me. I just got a bonus from work, so I decided to upgrade "Once and for all"
I got one of the 'grand-daddies' of them all, the Sony XBR950 - a 70 inch behemoth that cost me ~$6k. Of course, it has a grand total of 1 DVI and 3 component inputs for HD. . . which means running my PC through the DVI leaves me with nothing but component. So I searched around and found that a Chinese brand "Momitsu" made a un-converting DVD player that would output 1080i over component. (no HDCP crap) I instantly bought one even though it was $100 more than some other upconverting DVD players that only output over DVI/HDMI
So the net is that we'll all find ways around that, or if it ever doesn't work I'll return the PS3/whatever HD disc player I end up getting. If it's really locked into a step DOWN from the upconverted "psuedo-1080i" I'm getting today, I can't see spending money on it.
The box takes the HDMI input and makes the HDCP authorization routine happy. The switch will output via component video.
Yeah - I know this one is $1500. But it takes just about any input and converts to just about any output. I've seen early products (seems like it was from Sweden) that just did the HDMI-to-component video conversion for $150.
I know that the HDCP technology can dynamically be updated to turn off the compliance key in these devices. But there will be two problems: (1)there will be a zillion of these on the market; and (2) consumers (and their lawyers) will be screaming.
Just as it's common for people to use modchips in their game consoles, it'll be as common to use modchips in HD-DVD players.
Anyway, will this thing be able to thwart piracy? I don't think so, this is just another way to get more money, like the region codes system.
Besides, I've had experience with divx video, 640x480 is a very good resolution, i've played some divx on my 21" TV. And there's the good ol' 512x384 which is acceptable.
Why think that a resolution of 900 pixels wide is bad?
Let me tell you something i've seen in my city. Pirated VCD's to play cheap movies in your house, the chinese players are around $30, if not cheaper. Yes, at 320x200 they look crappy. But they sell. If common people feel fine with VCD resolution, do you think they'll say "oh crap" when they realize their pirated movies can "only" display at 900 pixels wide? Give me a break.
Ultra-high resolution movies are only for "original owners" (read-as: suckers) and fan-pirates. And fan-pirates do value resolution, and they're very persistent. Don't think a pitiful hardware limitation will make them give up.
In other words, is the high-resolution protection necessary? No. Effective? No. It's just another excuse to sell more hardware. Welcome to America.
Time to organize a class action .. Then hope/pray for a more citizen friendly DOJ that will investigate some obvious restraint of trade issues (RICO act)...
I may well be way off on this, but if my memory serves correctly, the DMCA allows for reverse engineering for purposes of compatibility (think about DVD playability on Linux). Is it reasonable to apply this scenario as a "compatibility issue"? If so, would it hold up in court?
(I realize it's quite a reach, and I'm sure I already know the answers to both, but I'd like to see how y'all feel about this particular way of thinking.)
A proud provider of services through the Microsoft Reboot Engineer Certification since 1997!
How long will it take before someone hacks the encryption scheme of AACS to make a converter to change the HD signal from a digital HDMI connection to the analog component connections?
I don't mean to sound cold and cynical - but I am, so that's the way it comes out.
With a degree in EE this sounds like a new market for a DVI to RCA converter!
difference between this and the Sony rootkit is that they're not even trying to hide it. It's part of the spec. Use a "cracked" player and they'll revoke the license to not just your player, but ALL crackable players of that model, turning them into little more than expensive bricks. Since the DMCA says it's now illegal to circumvent this type of copy protection (i.e. "cracking" the player) you better believe they'll get away with it too.
Here's the way I see it:
DVD:
Cheap players
Cheap discs
I can copy (though not always legally)
I have a Blockbuster online account
I can play on any DVD player
I can lend to my friends (or borrow)
Next-Gen:
Expensive players
Expensive discs
Draconian copy-protection
Competing formats
I don't have HD, so upgrades in quality are nil
"Might" be backwards-compatible (depending on format)
Might not be able to borrow (or lend)
I've already upgraded my collection from VHS, I really don't feel like laying out thousands of dollars for limited or no gains.
It still sucks, though.
before even thinking about buying HDTV.
Look, the first rule of marketing (my first degree was BusMgmt (Sales/Marketing)) is that the price drops drastically for electronics until it gets to about $300 then levels off. Waiting until it drops to about $500 is usually optimal, and it won't be until mass introduction of HDTV in 2007 that you should buy it.
Now, if you need it, great. Pay the premium to be an early adopter. But, in return, you'll have to deal with:
a. more bugs - the bug-free version of your set will retail for $300 in Feb 2008 that you paid $1500 for in Feb 2006;
b. fewer features - as they become more of a commodity, what used to be special features (e.g. picture in picture for standard TV, etc) become standard features - think of cars and anti-lock brakes, airbags, MP3 players, that kind of thing;
c. less compatibility with other electronics - as the market matures, more devices will interconnect more easily.
Now, I've paid $5,000 for a Linux server that I could have bought for $500 only two years later, so I'm as nuts as the rest of you, but just realize that if you only wait until 2008, all three game consoles will be out, there will be new games for all the consoles, and they'll all work with your much cheaper HDTV, so you can afford to buy both a new game console and a new bigger HDTV and a whole library of games and movies for them, for the same cost of just an HDTV today.
It's your money: use it wisely.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
It's the hardware devices which use ENCRYPTED HDMI that you have to look out for. But there is nothing inherently bad about HDMI itself. Have no fear, buy the HDMI interface. You can still use DVI with it just fine.
We've all known that not having a DVI or HDMI input was going to screw you in the end, it's just official now.
Your stock price goes down, you lose your house in Aruba, and ice weasels kill and eat your children.
Everyone knows that there are no ice weasels in Aruba. It's the zombie chickens that you have to be afraid of if you end up living on the streets there.
I propose a new slogan for the rebellion that will strike fear into Aruba-living executives everywhere:
"Down with the HD-DVD Consortium! Long live zombie chickens!"
Mod me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!
Oh yes, oh yes people. Wait for faster cheaper broadband. The HD DVD format to be cracked just like CSS and Sony's ARCOSS within a month or 2 of release. Wait for cheap HD DVD format writers and everyone will be happy :) Lots of waiting, but we're already waiting for HD :D
It's worse than mentioned in the article - upconverting DVD players won't even do component output (at 720 or 1080). So, I can steal a disc at it's fullest resolution, but can't even play purchased legal disc on my TV with a hi-tech upconverter. Way to kill that market!
My LCD TV is 37" - but (like most) is only 768x1280; so for the one device I have that WILL accept DVI/HDMI digital input, 1080i is a waste of money.
I agree- most people aren't going to replace their TV until they need to. Until then, many like me will be content with DVD. With a good hi-res large TV, DVD resolution even at 480p is acceptable. It's not like I'm suffering, or trying to watch my 26" TV from 1985. It took from 1985 til 2002 to replace my last TV. When will I replace this one?
How badly do I need to see "Caddyshack" or "Something About Mary" in 1080i? I don't think anything can improve the video of "Sky Captain". Heck, TV shows were passable at broadcast quality, they're fine on DVD. Very few shows DEMAND being seen at 1080i - I'll wait. Actually, computer-generated movies (Toy Story, Bug's Life) are frighteningly sharp on DVD at 480p.
I'll wait until the manufacturers see the light. I suspect the hundreds of millions of households that just spent the last 7 years investing in DVD technology and content are in no hurry to change... DVD was a cheap quantum leap over VHS. BluRay (BluR?) or HD will have to be as convincingly better and as cheap before it goes anywhere...
Old news.
HD DVD is stillborn.
-- Mean People Suck
"Early HDTV adopters screwed by adopting early HD-DVD players"
My TV has a component input (though, I suppose I could buy the DVI upgrade board) and I'm not going to make the same mistake I made with my early Sony DVD player. Back then, it was not uncommon for the players to reject burned audio and video discs. Now, not listing every conceivable format on the box is the norm.
I'm a bit older and a bit wiser. If the early HD-DVD players pull this crap, and I'm certain they will, it just means I wait for the reasonable models to come out.
....they could lock up a user's entire library before they knew it was possible. Sure it will be hackable but not legally and not easy enough for the majority of users.....
If suddenly millions of such HD DVD owners discovered that none of the content they purchased works any longer, they would start looking for ways to get around that artificial DRM restriction. Just like anyone who wants to today, can get tools to decrypt existing movies and songs, this will also be true of the new DRM schemes. When these millions of voters learn that it actually their government that is the real reason why their movies suddenly don't play any longer because of the laws (DMCA and mandated equipment designs) that these companies have bought from corrupt politicians, these laws will be repealed or ignored.
Since the content must eventually reach the eyes and ears of the consumers, it can also be copied. The content creators know this and are using the laws and courts to support their old, outdated business models. The horse industry tried this for a short time when the horseless carriage came. All bits are copyable and there can NEVER be an artificial restriction that will change this. Existing businesses that will not adapt to changing technology and markets have always tried to use governmental force to protect their business models.
If the government had not protected these old business models, they probably would have changed by now and the content creators would have figured out by now how to make money from the new technology. In the past, the government largely refused to protect content makers from the new emerging technologies such as audio and video recording for consumers. As a result, the content distributers have profited immensely from the new business models they came up with, whereas the actual creators have gotten an increasingly smaller portion of the revenue.
Once these artificial government business model supports are eliminated, DRM will permanently disappear. The real "pirates" are not stopped by any DRM in any case.
All theory is gray
I know I have an old HDTV (It only has component inputs). I will most likely replace it in a few years when costs for HD-DVD and Bluray have come Down. The thing that still concerns me is not many recievers have switching for anything but component. So I dont know what I would do if I had a bluray player an HD-DVD player and maybe a tivo series 3 that all require HDMI with HDCP to appease just hollywood and not the guy that just dropped a few grand on new stuff.
http://www.wickedtoast.com
Look. There's no possible way to secure audio or video media such that folks who pirate it will be unable to pirate it. It's just not there. If there's a billion dollars to be made, it will be hacked . . . probably in about a day. This whole DRM crap is to remove fair use. Just to illustrate the point . . .
0. Buy HD DVD with DRM, put it into a legitimate player and pipe it to your new spiffy TV.
1. Crack open TV, place probing hardware on the internal video generation components.
2. Reverse engineer a HD DVD code out of it . . . w/o DRM this time.
3. Stamp out a billion HD DVDs and flood the Chinese market.
For the people who make money off of this, it will always be possible, you just might make them work a little harder. The only people this stops are people who are using their legal fair use rights.
Holy Crap, I just made Kim Il-Jong richer.
What are the odds the studios will enable it on higher quality source material?
(a) slim or (b) none?
umm one quarter of 1920x1080 is 480x270
http://www.digitalconnection.com/Products/Video/ DCDA1.ASP
http://www.digitalconnection.com/Products/Video/ DCDA1.ASP
This isn't the only place that sells these types of things. Component can not send a 1080p signal, so that you will lose, but at least you can get 720p or 1080i out of it.
We were all warned a long time ago that MS products sucked, remember the Magic 8 Ball said, "Outlook not so good"
Here's your new puppy.
No, you can't take it out of the cage, because you might kill it.
But you can look at it all you want, you just arn't allowed to pet it.
Well, you can pet it, but only if you wear these boxing gloves so you can't actually feel it.
Why? because there are some naughty children who would hurt the puppy.
I know you wouldn't hurt the puppy.
Yes, I know you paid for it, fed it, and love it.
But you still can't touch him.
Isn't he cute though?
Are those keys in your pocket?
You arn't allowed to have keys anymore.
Because you might try to unlock the cage.
It doesn't matter if those are the keys to your house, you arn't allowed to have them.
No, even if you don't buy the puppy, it's illegal to have keys, because you might hurt puppies.
Your dad is a Locksmith? I'm calling the police.
It's not like these movie companies are making fantastic movies anyway - it's all a bunch of recycled crap anymore. Sure I can still laugh at funny movies, and I still watch them... but would I really miss them? I think, perhaps, not.
My first though was, hell i'd rather download a torrent at this rate. If they keep this standard then down the road after blu-ray or hd-dvd discs mature i'll probably download a torrent and burn it in my home. I win in convenienc, price, and comfort (knowing that if my disc gets scratched i can easily make a new one).
The movie industry has a few choices either get with the program or see a massive increase in piracy. VHS had zero copy protection and movie makers were still able to make a nice profit. DVD's were much more painful to copy and the new discs are just gonna be pita to play and copy.
Hmmm... Pie...
If you had the knowledge that a pirated version of a disc would give you a higher quality then the legitimate version would you even bother buying the real disc? At least now with dvd's your going to get the full quality of the video that is offered out of the box.
Hmmm... Pie...
Early adopters always get screwed. This is why you WAIT to buy new technology until it hits the 2nd generation.
It sounds like they are building a great market for pirated high def disks ;-)
Full HD resolution is normally output on the analog HD connectors. The only exception to that is when a content provider (on a title-by-title basis) chooses to constrain the image to 960x540. If they make this choice, there is a labeling requirement so a consumer can decide before purchasing the title if they are bothered by this restriction. Also, this option is forbidden in countires where they have laws against such things (currently only Japan).
Seems a little biased.
"Prepare for a pride-obliterating bitch slap" - Ignignot
This whole issue has been there for the past several years. It's always been said that analog outputs would be down rez'd for new HD devices. In fact, 3 years ago I did a Christmas stint at Best Buy (you wouldn't believe the discount on Monster Cable) and we were trying to steer people away from any set without digital signal inputs. But frankly, consumers didn't care.
Customer: "You mean I'll probably have to buy a new TV in a few years if I don't pay $200 more for this one now?"
Me: "Yup"
Customer: "Well, I'm not paying an extra $200. Give me the all analog set. And no delivery, I'll take it out of the box and force it into the back of my Geo Metro."
And note that the hardware manufacturers are limited in what they can provide by what the content providers are willing to do. And the CPs made it very clear that if the "analog hole" wasn't closed, they were going to get behind HD.
So, no one should be surprised by this. If you bought an analog set in the past three years, it's your fault for not doing your homework. Anything bought earlier is the price of progress.
* As is generally the case, my opinions do not reflect those of my employer.
the less I want to even watch a movie or television... the cost of admission even into your own home goes higher and higher and the quality goes down.
I'll go outside instead.
-- I am. Therefore, I think!
Nice troll. Subtle, yet inflammatory. I loved the Geo Metro reference.
I too have felt the cold finger of injustice.
People won't even stop to think about the drawbacks to the new format, they'll be too busy thinking "High res content, what's the best out of these two shitty ways to get it?" and not "Why isn't the newer format at least as useful as DVD?"
Twinstiq, game news
people are upset that they bought bleeding technology several years ago and are suprised that it is out of darte. Hell I bought my hdtv in 01 nad it had analog and digital inputs, so they had to buy a "bleeding edge" device more than 5 years ago... yet they expect it to still be cutting edge 5 years later?
Come on people. If you are the type to buy a first to market item, yu are not going to be satisfied with analog even if it looked exactly the same. Early adopters do not buy one early item then stick with it for ever.. they like the newest neat gadgets, and most of them have probably already sold their older tv's to somebody who couldnt aford a new hdtv anyways.
New and improved Guilt. Now its alcohol soluble!
You think people will actually go for having their filesystem drivers written in Java? Cute.
http://outcampaign.org/
This sub-thread has more heat than light!
You will be able to play a physical HD DVD in any physical HD DVD player. The net access is about making a legal copy of the media for use in a media center. You'll be able to play in disc in your library on any other player, without net access, just like you can with a DVD.
HD DVD trades better cryptographic security for more flexible end-user rights. with Mandatory Managed Copy, any HD DVD can be transferred, legally, to other approved devices. While this is technically capable (via deCSS tools) with DVD, it's illegal.
My video compression blog
anyone who early adopted a HDTV set already paid 10x what they should've for a large display. why would they care that they can't see full resolution content on it? they can just fart the lesser amount of cash to buy another modern tv that works and is better than the old one.
Check out this forum of people complaining about HDCP: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/forum/showthread.ph p?t=3121&page=1&pp=10/
The first post:
"In discussion with some industry engineers, I found that there are some problems popping up with the adaptation of the new HDMI standard. Here is what was discussed:
(1) Some cable TV boxes with HDMI out are not delivering any picture to displays with HDMI inputs.
(2) The current HDMI plug appears not to be as sturdy as anticipated, and there may be a change next year in the design of the plug, and the new plug would not fit in current HDMI sockets.
(3) If you have an HDMI source such as a DVD player, and connect it to your display via HDMI, you may not be able to get 5.1 digital bitstreams to come out of the coaxial or Toslink digital output of the player at the same time as digital video and audio out of the HDMI output.
(4) HDMI is a two-way digital communication, and some displays send a handshake signal to the DVD player that permanently messes up the player's ability to output digital video through its HDMI jack.
(5) HDMI v 1.1 is already hitting the shelves, with v 1.2 on the way, and v 1.3 in the next couple of years (v 1.3 will deliver higher res 5.1 digital audio). What will be the backward compatibility of these versions?
In my own situation, using a DirecTV satellite box with HDMI out to an LCD TV with HDMI in, when I turn off the TV, the satellite box crashes. I have to unplug the satellite box and then plug it back in. I have not solved this problem, except by switching to some other input besides HDMI before turning the TV off. Then, when I turn the TV back on, I switch to the HDMI input for viewing."
There follows a litany of woe where devices need to be turned on in a specific order for the HDCP handshake to work, where the coax cable needs to run from the digital set top box to the tv (even though it's not needed) to keep the box from crashing, complaints from professional AV system installers who can't get components to work, some boxes that will either transmit the HDCP stream or the digital audio but not both, some components that don't recognize HDCP repeaters so that hooking your cable box straight into your tv works, but not with the dvr between them, etc. All for nothing. If the HDMI cables just didn't have to deal with HDCP they would transmit the same quality with no problems. You can't put out a technology that requires you to turn on components in a specific order to work, it's just ridiculous.
This is Slashdot! We're not supposed to actually read stuff, are we?
I don't really have the ability to read it properly now (I just woke up). It looks interesting, but there are warning bells going off in my head, and I don't know why yet.
FYI: You might want to look at what AmigaOS did with "DataTypes".
Cheers!
http://outcampaign.org/
Joe 6-pack will max out his credit cards and spend his children's college fund to watch the super-bowl in HD. After that he can watch nascar in HD while asking the wife/kids to bring him another beer.
The question is not will Joe buy a HDTV, but will he bother to buy an HD DVD player. And that probably depends on the porn industry!
Think Deeply.
From what I understand a component level input has limited resolution capacity simply because it's an analog signal. With that stated, to my knowledge, earlier HDTV's were also limited to the same resolution.
TV's have advanced a lot in the past 5 years since HDTV first came out. Now there are LCD TV's, Plasma's, multi-layer comb filters, HDMI connections, etc.
The problem isn't in the copyright protection, the problem lies in the connection. You're only going to get so far on an analog connection.
The product is already gone. Here's why:
"Well... there's a bigger problem looming ahead. Unfortunately, the good people behind HDCP weren't complete idiots. If you thought that the idea of OPM was a little scary, you're going to love Key Revocation Lists. Consider revocation HDCP's version of the History Eraser Button.
So what is revocation? Let's first start with a brief look at HDCP.
There are three main parts to HDCP's security system. First, there is the cryptographic Authentication and Key Exchange (AKE). When a company wishes to produce an HDCP-compliant device, that company requests a set of keys from the HDCP licensing body. After the licensing body has determined that the company's product has been designed in a manner robust enough to withstand attacks and that the keys will be protected, the company will be given a series of unique secret keys.
AKE is the cryptographic method that uses these keys to determine a mutual value with which to encrypt the data traveling between the playback device and the display device.
Once both the playback device and the display device have settled on a value with which to encrypt the content, all the video content will be encrypted using this mutual value (this is the second part). Additionally, the system will check every couple of seconds to ensure the integrity of both the keys and the link.
So far, that seems reasonable. However, what happens when rogue devices start to appear on the market? What happens when a company's design wasn't as robust as first thought or, worse yet, a company's secret keys are leaked "into the wild."
This is where key-revocation lists come into play. The third aspect of HDCP security is "device renewability." This is the ability for media, streaming content, or even other devices to invalidate keys known to be a problem. For instance, let's assume that you've purchased a DVIMAGIC. That little device is sitting between your cable box and your television. Everything is going fine. Then, one day, you wake up to discover that your television is no longer working with all the channels. What happened? Your cable box just used System Renewability Messages (SRMs) to invalidate the keys used by your DVIMAGIC. From that point on, your cable box will treat your DVIMAGIC as a rogue device. As such, it will not allow it to pass AKE.
Will your DVIMAGIC work with a HD-DVD player? That depends: what discs have you tried to play? Revocation lists are encoded onto the DVDs. The newer the disc is, the larger the revocation list will be, and, once you're "caught," that playback device should never pass AKE."
Key revocation is ridiculous. Devices like these are the only way for older HDTVs to work with the new players.
And here's the best part, about how innocent people buying brand new TVs could be screwed too:
"However, what happens when legitimate keys are "in the wild?" For instance, let's assume for a second that a large plasma-television company was the victim of a break-in/angry employee/etc. The result is that said company's keys have landed in the hands of a DVIMAGIC-type dongle maker. When that dongle-maker is caught, will the powers-that-be revoke its keys knowing that, in doing so, there will be legitimate customers caught in the crossfire?
The answer isn't 100% clear. Content owners might very well say, "Too bad - Company X didn't properly protect its keys." The result? Unclear."
Problems:
1) This is DVI, not HDMI which will be the connector of choice for HD-DVD and Blu_Ray.
2) They can revoke your key at any time.
3) It costs $400.
I bought a HDTV in the last 6 months. It is a Panasonic 65LCX61 which is a recent model. It only has ONE HDMI input. I'm using that for my cable input. I'm not thrilled with the prospect of unplugging the cable and plugging in the HD DVD player (or BLU RAY). I looked for an HDMI switch box. As far as I can tell only one company makes them (Gefen http://www.gefen.com/) and they cost $300 or more!
The fact that they're crippling HD-DVD isn't as much of a problem as the fact that they're doing the same thing with Blu-Ray. The concept of banning screenshots and artificially degrading the playback quality of physical media you paid for is going too far.
The marketing for Blu-Ray is excellent. Consumers are going to love Blu-Ray movies, clean them off the shelves, and it's going to be the product of the year, but consumers are going to be more limited in what they can do with their purchases than they ever have before.
This great dutch movie goes about the story of a man who found out about the conspirancy in wich the whole television industry is involved. How they have planned the future of marketing moves in frigting great detail.
It is called: Off Screen
A must see, with subtitles if you don't understand dutch.
Great movie.
Hivemind harvest in progress..
If one wanted, it would be easy enough to get an hdtv monitor, hdtv camera and record at 1920x1200. They seem intent on killing that which made the current system so successful. At some point you've gotta let those who insist on self vestigilization do so.
I pretty much agree with you. I'd love to see DRM done away with.
But I am curious about this: How could the movie industry adjust and be successful? What should their new business model be like? If they were to abandon DRM, what would keep piracy from running away with their money? Are you saying that there are enough people who would buy it if it wasn't DRM'ed, that it would make a difference?
Early buyers knew when they purchased that future sources would include limitations on resolution for non HDMI-stadard sets. It was predicted by Nostradamus.
....Are you saying that there are enough people who would buy it if it wasn't DRM'ed,.....
I think the iTunes music store shows that people ARE willing to pay a reasonable price for the content they want. The iTunes DRM is relatively benign and conveniently allows what most users want to do with the content. Do you really think that Apple would sell significantly fewer songs and videos if there were no DRM at all? I think it might be just the opposite. There are many for whom DRM is a slap in the face, impugning their basic honesty and integrity and they therefore avoid it like the plague. Just as there are some who help themselves to store merchandise and walk out without paying, there will always be some who will get content without paying for it. Even so, most stores make money from the vast majority of honest folk who stop at the cash register.
In the same way, I think the content makers would not lose if they eliminated DRM with its attendant extra costs and the negative effects (Sony rootkit?) of painting their customers as dishonest thieves. I suspect that Sony lost more money and customer goodwill from that episode than they ever might have saved through their DRM efforts.
DRM has never stopped and never will stop the criminal copyright infringers who copy things wholesale and then try to sell it on the streets. These guys should be sought out, thrown in jail and sued into financial oblivion.
All theory is gray
There are so many different kinds of television. It's boggling. Now I like choices. But it's overwhelming. I've settled on HD LCD/ PC compatible for my own reasons but only after a lot of research. Choice is good. But when half the choices of today aren't supported tomorrow, it gets frustrating. What do you think?
Everyone who didn't see this coming. It doesn't matter though: for $100 or so you'll be able to buy a HDV->Comp converter that doesn't downrez at every tech stall in the night market. Of course Joe Consumer won't know this so he'll be returning his HD-DVD player and disks because the picture's crap.
...folks might actually read what's in there, rather than take someone else's opinion as gospel who also clearly hasn't read the documentation. Heck, this is worse than some of the threads at AVSForum!
What is real:
1) Early players will be able to output full HD from the component outputs unless the disc itself specifically precludes it.
2) There is a susnet provision in something like ten years for the "analog hole" to be closed.
3) While you may not like it, you are technically breaking the law (DMCA, without actually saying whether it is a GOOD law...) when you "backup" a DVD.
4) It took several years and a sloppy replication house to break CSS. It was not "a few months", and DVD Jon did not do it without someone on the inside getting sloppy.
5) I haven't noticed anyone mentioning breaking key lengths by brute force on Slashdot that are of a similar size as the ones being used here.
6) AACS applies to both HD-DVD AND Blu Ray, so let's make sure that we heap equal amounts of scorn on both.
Mmmmkay?
That's a good choice. I have a X1 that I got off eBay for cheap and it's great. It's the main TV in my dorm room, shared between 6 people, and we've put around 2000 hours on it since August. Supposedly the bulbs are rated for 2500-4000, so we'll see when it blows.
I used to get high on life, but I developed a tolerance. Now I need something stronger.
What I will own (even if I have to bring it over from china) is a flashable DVD player with a beefy DSP to play compressed HD movies thru component and DVI/DHMI.
With DIVX you can squeeze a 4.5 gig movie down to 720MB. Making some assumtions about compression ratios I think its safe to say most HD content will soon be downloadable at the 4.5 gig size point. I look forward to RAN in particular. (if you've ever seen a clean print you'll know what I'm talking about).
Being able to see HD content upscanned to 1600x1200 on my 21 display will drive the NEED to upgrade the tube in the living room. There just is'nt any content driving the need yet. Wait till the first good HD movies show up on USENET and lots of attitudes will change. Piracy has always driven sales.
Put that player on the market and you will sell millions. Do you think the offshore player manuafacturers are'nt aware of this?
MPAA is as doomed as RIAA. Perhaps the new entertainment industry (whatever business model they come up with) will produce more Kurosawas and fewer scumsucking hacks like Lucas. I can only hope so.
What I want is the sheep to buy just enough of these players for the industry to issuing HD versions of the great old movies. With this plan I don't think even that will happen.
The phone cord to the player is the kiss of death. Nobody wants hollywood reviewing their movie watching habits (not even the kind of morons that infest these 'burbs trading their lives for sparkleys). It killed the DIVX (pay per play) players, it will kill these.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
I bought my TV over 3 years ago, and it has at least one digital input, so it would have to be a really early adopter (or a cheap @ss TV) that would lack the required inputs. I haven't seen anything that says it requires the latest type of digital input; just digital.
Native resolution is only an issue if you have a "fixed-pixel device"; a plasma or LCD display. If the scaling bothers you that much, avoid those technologies. It's nowhere near as bad as you seem to think, if properly implemented, either. (You can buy a $75 DVD player that scales just about flawlessy, so it's not hard or expensive, these days.) Or, just don't buy an HD/BluRay DVD player. I don't intend to. At least, not until the format war is over.
While the fault is entirely that of the content producers, wouldn't an easy way to "fix" this problem for the early adopters be a way to have the televison set expire prematurely? Surely if the TV burns out early and is still under warranty, then it should be replaced with a newer tv which should meet the requriements. Not that anyone would damage the TV on purpose.
Instead though, maybe everyone should organize a mass buy HD-DVD protest campaign. Us they won't listen to. Have a couple million people call,wrtie, e-mail in complaint to the content producers, and we might actually get somewhere.
This is one reason why I've made no plans on updating my TV. I'm even re-considering why I'm buying DVDs or CDs right now.
They might try tricks like - available first in HD... But a half a billion households probably have DVD. For the first few years, especially while HD and BluRay are fighting it out, I doubt they'll sell 10 million players. HD will be to DVD what SACD and DVD-Audio are to CDs. The market will be negligible.
This is the principle - the new has to be a quantum leap above the old. CD was so much better than vynil or cassettes - convenience but especially sound quality - that everyone wanted to buy. CDs are sufficiently good that there's no impetus to buy anything better.
DVD's outdid VHS in quality, convenience, and durability. But a major driver to both CD and DVD sales was the rush to re-buy all your favourites in the new format. Nobody chucks their 500 CD's to buy SACD, and if the HD/BluR groups fiddle too long, and charge too much, by then everyone will have their library of classics on DVD. Nobody will see the need to rebuy more than a handful of classics in HD; their DVD copies will be plenty good.
(Actually, that's what I think is behind the decline in CD sales, not piracy. Everyone who wanted to re-buy classics of their youth -60's, 70's, or 80's - on CD has done so. The record companies can't rely on the Beatles, Stones, Hendrix, Fleetwood Mac or Led Zeppelin to boost their sales. And the people that would buy those universally agree - today's "music" sucks!)
The Chinese want to build their own DVD format and when they do, I'm hoping that it will be without these limitations on use. Whatever China does in this space will make HD-DVD and Blu-Ray irrelevant due to the size of their market at home.
As of last month, downrezzing over component was an optional restriction that was left up to the individual content providers, not an absolute requirement. Maybe that's changed within the past month, but since the Sci Fi article provides absolutely no source, I'm loath to uncritically accept their claims.
This seems like a deliberate attempt to force obsolesence, since there is no technical reason why they would have to downgrade the signal coming from the analog output.
My rights don't need management.
You probably want one of these: Spatz-Tech's DVIMAGIC
But that $500 device may become a paperweight when the HDCP compliance police (Digital Content Protection, LLC) revoke the DVIMAGIC HDCP key. And they can slip that revocation on an innocent-looking movie disk so that your working system suddenly fails and refuses to send any more content through the device :(.
Yes, and you do know that HDMI+HDCP is converted to DVI+HDCP with the simple change of a few pin positions don't you? There is no electical or algorithm needed to "transcode" from a HDMI to a DVI connection. The only thing at issue is the loss of the audio portion of the signal. There are MANY devices out there that are capible to grabbing that data and putting it onto another wire, Gefen for example makes several devices that convert from HDMI v1.1+HDCP to DVI+HDCP and analog L+R, or DVI+HDCP and optical toshlink, or DVI+HDCP and copper SPDIF. There are also HUNDREDS of other converts that simply drop the audio portion of the stream and will convert the cable from HDMI+HDCP to DVI+HDCP, since the "stream" itself is never changed, only the form-factor of the connection device (just like how you can take an ethernet cable with a RJ45 endpiece and instead of it being a straight patch cable, cut one end off, re-wire a few of the pins, crimp on another RJ45 endpice and bingo, you now have a crossover, well that is exactly how it works with HDMI->DVI, you cut off the end, strip out a few of the wires which will not be used, re-arrange the others, and crimp on a DVI end piece...).
We were all warned a long time ago that MS products sucked, remember the Magic 8 Ball said, "Outlook not so good"
I'm not surprised. There's lots of important Electronic Frontier bandwagons that the EFF doesn't jump on. In this case I presume it's because they can easily purchase a hacked DVD player, so why bother?
That argumentation might work against someone who actually used the hack.
;-)
But disable the player of Granny who has the same model but never thought of hacking it, and I guess she will be able to sue you successfully. This might eventually happen with a popular model of which a few 100.000 are in circulation, and we will have something like the Sony affair
C - the footgun of programming languages
Oh, glorious analog hole, you will be missed.
Locking the keys in a black box won't stop us from getting the keys. However, by criminalizing those that seek the keys, they've ensured that only the criminals will get the keys. Those are the people who affect the bottom line through piracy and counterfeiting.
It is time netizens, to harness the power of the internet for good, not pr0n. Education and information dissemination are tools we can use. Teach Joe Six-Pack consumer that corporations are taking away their rights and limiting their options to deal with a phantom threat. The "all ighty ollar" speaks louder than any laws in this land. It's time we began shouting, and do not buy.
That headline alone will cause problems (and potentially failure) for this initiative. Just like development or construction projects where use/acceptance is not compulsory, success needs to take into considerations the needs of all stakeholders, and not just one.
Sounds like they're playing favorites.
Beware: I believe all are created equal, and have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Yeah - the momitsu was really nice, I thought about getting that, but I had read some posts to some of the AV forums that it didn't really upconvert in all cases - but there's a Samsung (that I got) that upconverts to Component, and supposedly has really good audio too. Unfortunately, I'm not all that discriminating on the audio side (my ears just aren't sensitive enough). But I've been pretty happy with the component out of the Samsung, considering it was pretty cheap.
Still have the old husk of my Apex 600 AD; the mechanism gave out.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Unless I missed how resolutions are calculated 960x540 is exactly 1/2 of 1920x1080, not 1/4. Am I missing an important math class somewhere where 1920/2 does not equal 960?