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Dealing w/ Relocation Package Bait and Switch?
An anonymous reader asks: "I got a R&D job offer with a large company in Philadelphia area last week. It includes a relocation package that they told me was standard for my position. After I accepted the offer and made plans to terminate my current job, the recruiter handed me off to their relocation department, where I was told that my relocation package is significantly less than what I was promised. The relocation manager tells me that whenever there is conflict between their relocation policy and the offer, their internal relocation policy supersedes. Is this type of switch-and-bait common practice in corporate America? If you have gone through this nightmare before, any advice on how to respond to it?"
what anyone else would do, and post the name of the company on Slashdot.
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I think you're screwed.
http://packetnexus.com
I would seriously consider not taking the job if they don't try to fix it quickly. If they're going to screw you over before you've even started, imagine what they'll do once you're there.
FWIW, I took a job cross country about a year and a half ago that included a relocation package. They handled it very professionally, and followed through with everything that they had promised. So far, it's been a good company to work for.
Get it in writing next time, and sue the heck outta them if you get less than what's on the paper.
I've never run into a problem like that. However, if I were in a situation like that and had already quit my previous position, I would probably
1) take the job
2) start job-hunting immediately
3) see if this was an anomaly or business-as-usual for a company without a moral compass.
If it's business-as-usual I'd jump ship as soon as I got another job.
If it's an anomaly I'd work from within to make sure this never happened to anyone else.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Go ask a lawyer.
God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
Was the offer made in writing? If so, they are obligated to honor it and you'll need to take whatever steps you deem prudent to see that they do. Taking a new employer to court might start things off on the wrong foot, but you shouldn't let them walk all over you especially if it's a larger company. Check into whether or not there are any government agencies who can intervene on your behalf. If the offer wasn't in writing, you're probably screwed for the most part.
Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
If you have something in writting, you should be able to hold them to it. Of course, you have to wonder about the company if their first offical act is to screw you over.
A treat to eat, in a puppet that's neat!
Why would you trust a company that makes these opening moves? My take on it is that use as a selection method and what they most need is sheeple that do not squeal too hard when they get done in the *rse. By screwing them even before they take the job they are weeding out theones that would. But be shure to tell the recruiter that this is why you are declining his offer. If it was an honest mistake he should be able to get it fixed, otherwise he will just don't care.
This space is intentionally staring blankly at you
First question: do you have the original offer including the relocation package in writing? If you don't, you're screwed. If you do, however, that written offer will trump their policy. You accepted that offer, if they try to change the terms after the fact that's a material change that opens the whole thing up again. If the relocation package was actually part of the final paperwork you signed to accept the offer then the change isn't just a material change in the offer, it'd be an attempt to breach the agreement and they can be held liable for damages. If you have the original package offer in writing, I'd start with presenting the matter to HR as an attempt to change the offer after acceptance. HR will be rather nervous about that since they know what kind of havoc you could wreak if you wanted to.
This hurts you personally, but if I were in your shoes, and I was able, I would refuse the job offer. I know it isn't an answer anyone wants to hear, but if everyone did this, it would be extremely effective at stopping this kind of manipulation! The problem of course, is that few of us are able to do this, as most of us live hand to mouth, with little savings. And lets face it, the IT industry isn't as fertile as it was even recently.
Perhaps the next best thing to do would be to publicize the companies with these kinds of practices. That is also very risky, since the company can then turn around and fire you without a reason, and I expect most would do that. So perhaps you don't publicize this practice until you have procured another job.
Perhaps you can talk to a lawyer, but I expect there is little that can be done legally, unless you have a contract which spelled out what you were actually promised...
At the very least you should consider looking for another job. Any company with these kinds of practices won't stop at the relocation packages they promise. I would expect more of this kind of behaviour, and by staying you are rewarding this kind of practice.
Before you peg yourself as someone who's unreasonable to work with --
Contact the person who originally told you about the relocation package, and tell them that the 'Relocation Manager' isn't offering the same thing. Ask them to deal with the issue, or make a counter offer and tell them what you're willing to take in exchange for the lower package (eg, higher pay, alternative benefits).
I've gotten the bait & switch on jobs before (my second day on the job, job responsibilities changed dramatically)-- my suggestion is deal with it as soon as possible, but don't become adversarial with the HR department -- have the person who hired you deal with them.
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
There's that, but an earlier step that's also missing in almost all of these questions is -- did you ask anyone before flying off the handle and coming here? In this case, did you go back to the recruiter and ask him what's going on and whether he can untangle it?
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
Burn the building down.
While everyone seems to want you to quit, sue, or play hardball, they're not the ones in the middle of it.
So why not try talking to the hiring manager first? It could be that someone doing the relocation is just taking their duties a little too seriously.
Wax-Museum Fire Results In Hundreds Of New Danny DeVito Statues
Call the VP or Human Resources and tell him what happened. Chances are he'll be furious that this is happening and straighten out the recruiter or whomever gave you the wrong information. He'll probably also be able to arrange an exception to give you what you expected, or at least a compromise. No large company would do this as a matter of policy. No one wants employees who feel cheated; they don't work hard and might steal from the company.
So, to accept anything and resign from your current job, isn't it reasonable to get that all signed on paper?
So where are the papers?
"Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky
Mod Parent Up. Ask A Labor-Law Specialist.
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
Read your offer letter and what came with it. If it says you get X. You get X. They signed it and sent it to you certified probably, and then they wanted a signed copy back.
It's a contract. That's what matters. Anything else is just people's lips flapping.
Explain what you were promised and agreed to as part of the agreement to join the company. Explain what HR told you. Make it his problem.
If the company does not end up delivering what was promised, DO NOT join that company. DO NOT move your entire life for a company who renegotiated the deal after you accepted it. Even if it wasn't in writing, even if the company might not have even made the offer (maybe it's a contract recruiter talking out of his...?), it doesn't matter. There was a deal on the table, you accepted it, and now after that you're being told, gee, sorry, standard policy, we're not going to honor our end of the deal.
Don't go to work for a company where there's any question about ethics on day one. Usually it takes a while to decide that a company is crooked or incompetent or disorganized. You haven't set foot there and you're already personally getting screwed by this. That bodes poorly. Joining a company and then immediately leaving looks bad on your resume and can haunt you for future reference checks. If you get a bad enough vibe, don't even go.
But give the hiring manager a chance to make it right. If he goes to bat for you and gets the problem fixed to your satisfaction, you owe him. But at least you are coming on board knowing that (a) you have a manager who's going to work to take care of you and do what's right, and (b) your company is not so disfunctional that "policy" trumps doing what's right. If he shrugs and says he can't do anything, what do you think he's going to do the next time the company tries to screw you? Your manager's job is to be your advocate, here's a chance to see if he tries to do his job and whether the company lets him.
So take this as an opportunity to let your potential future employer demonstrate to you their true colors. Think of it as their employer interview.
Even if you have it in writing, this first taste of the job is already quite sour. If you do have it in writing, do you really want to work for this company?
If you don't have it in writing, talk to the person that extended you the original offer. Depending on what they do, you may or may not decide to take it/stay. Make sure whatever you agree to is in writing. Basically, any company that did something like this would be way in the hole and would have to work to keep any reasonable person.
If you haven't quit your old job, or you gave notice but haven't left and they're really sorry to see you go, indicate you might be interested in staying. This would involve playing the "what can you do for me" game. You certainly don't want to be honest about why you're reconsidering. Say something to your boss along the lines of "I would have liked to have seen project X to completion. It is going to be great!" or something like that. Perhaps they can sweeten your current job and you can both save face and your sanity by "accepting" the offer.
The cesspool just got a check and balance.
If it's a genuine case of the offers being different, as you say, do not under any circumstances work there unless it is resolved to your satisfaction. Tell them up front. It might be an honest mistake, but it establishes a bad precedent, and sours the relationship from the start.
So write this out and send it off:
Dear Big Company,
I'm afraid the apparent change in conditions of my employment makes it impossible for me to accept the job. While I understand and appreciate that this difference may be an honest mistake, no effort to provide an explanation has been given, and this issue has soured our relationship. While I incur great personal hardship in making this decision at this date, I cannot in good faith accept work for a company that unilaterally changes the terms of my employment.
If you need to, spend a couple hundred bucks on getting a lawyer to write it up for you.
First, you describe it as a 'nightmare'. Is this a deal-breaker, or not, for you?
If it's not, and you'd honestly take the job even without the better relocation package, then your goal is just to try to negotiate, right?
If it IS a DEFINITE deal-breaker, call them up and tell them that, bluntly but softly: "I'm sorry, but that's what I was promised. I don't want to cause any trouble, but for me right now this is definitely a deal-breaker. Please talk to whoever you need to talk to," get info on how long it will take them to make a decision and arrange to call back, and then call back.
If it's not a definite deal-breaker but you want to negotiate, the procedure is the same, but use softer wording.
"Bob, you told me that there was [blah] to help me get there and get going, and they're telling me [blahrg]. I'm just really concerned, and I wanted to let you know where I'm at with this. I'm really excited about coming on board with you guys, and I'm really looking forward to it, but my situation right now is that without an adequate relocation package like the one you described, it just might not make sense for either of us."
Also, mention to them that there are two ways that this is bad -- first, that the financial hit you'd take from the lower relocation package is enough to make taking the position a lot less attractive. But second, that taking that hit -- a substantial financial penalty -- is enough of a negative for you that it just might not make sense to start off what you *had* hoped would be a long and mutually rewarding career by being asked to take a big financial penalty.
You didn't quit your job yet, right? You haven't yet taken a dump on your supervisor's desk, right? So you can survive. If your prospective new bosses react to these kinds of reasonable concerns unreasonably, you're better off where you are, so expressing your concerns can only help you.
Go ask a lawyer.
*looks over previous Ask Slashdots*
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I can see why this comment was marked "insightful"
Note: This is intended to be funny. It actually appears that "ask a lawyer" is a reasonable answer to quite a few Ask Slashdots.
This guy's the limit!
Not everyone is in the position to just up and leave. If you have a family, wife, kids, morgage, bills, commitments then you can't risk not being in work for a few months. There is also potential damage to your career, jumping ship too often does not look good on a CV
In your position I would go back to the agent and tell them the full story, they may be able to get it sorted out for you, though it is unlikely, but otherwise tell them you are back on the market looking for another job - tell the other agencies the same.
The one reason the agent may be inclined to help is not any altruism on their part, but purely self interest. You quiting doesn't look good on that agency, and agencies are very competative. Also depending how they negotiated the contract the agency may only get their commision (or all of the commision) based upon a certain retention period.
I wish you the best of luck either way!
$_="Slashdotter";$syn="OTT";s;..;;;sub _{print shift||$_};s!ash!Perl !;s=$syn=ack=i;tr+LLEd+BLAH+;_"Just Another ";_
That while many posting here think the company is screwing this person, maybe the fault really lies in the hiring manager. Quite often the hiring manager may make promises or say things they don't have a clue about.
In any of these questions there are not enough facts to really figure out what happened. Yes, while this person accepting the new job may get screwed don't jump to the conclusion that the company is backstabbing and that the new employee should quit. This just might be some dumb manager who doesn't have a clue--or maybe a smart manager who didn't get the email on what the standard relocation package is now. There is way too much missing information.
Legally, there may or may not be a contract. You can have a verbal contract which is binding, however, the hard part is proving the existence and details of the contract. Also, the newly hired employee might have a claim for induced reliance--the company induced him to quit his or her old job (maybe, because we really don't know when things happened) and because of that promise of relocation money he is out of a job. There is a potential claim here, but there is so much more that is needed before the new employee heads off to court.
Like someone pointed out he should go back to the hiring manager and find out if they can do anything. But the real lesson is that you don't quit your old job before you have all the details of the new job worked out first.
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Take the job, learn all of their internal systems and processes, steal them blind. Bonus points if you can frame the guy who hired you.
If you get caught, insist on a management position. You'll likely get it.
I had a similar situation only it was during the switch of one Government contractor company to the newly awarded contractor. They made small promises of 'educational reimbursement' just to keep me onboard but later made excuses, and finally reneged on those promises altogether. We are not talking about big bucks here. Within two weeks of that realization I had another job and they were left hunting for someone who even had a clue about doing my job. For me it was not a matter of money, but moral principal. I just won't work for anyone who can't be trusted to keep their word. Period. As for my coworkers who did not do anything deceitful, I kept in touch and helped keep them personally out of hot water when they needed it, for the better part of two years. So I do know how long they were looking for a replacement. In the short run the company saved the cost of one semesters course tuition, but in the long run they paid dearly for their shameless deceptive behavior.
R&D, huh? Easy.
1. Take the job and suck it up.
2. Start working on a project.
3. Make yourself indespinsable.
4. Feverishly look for work for their competitors.
5. Dump the company to work for "the other guys" when you land a position.
6. Profit! (In the form of the sweet feeling of pay back)
Run, don't walk, out the door.
This kind of bullshit is endemic to a company, if you have to deal with it here, you'll have to deal with it once you get there and start working. This is how you end up stuck in a job you hate, and stuck in the city they moved you to.
From a contract point of view, his claim is utterly false. It dosen't matter if it's not in writing, since you relied on the promise, it was reasonably foreseeable that you would do so, and this has harmed you - but that means suing your employer. That never ends well.
Seriously, don't work for these people.
-GiH
In addition to talking to the hiring manager, you can show up and start working, but refuse to sign all that glop they shove at you the first day or two, until you're given what you're owed. That puts the problem back on them in a big way: you're actually in the building and doing the work, so it would be a huge nuisance for them to find someone else. I did this when someone gave me a job offer and then stuck an unacceptable employment contract under my nose. They pretty much had to make the changes I asked for (which weren't financial), because it would have been too disruptive to fire me.
Hrm.. I can't offer any input there as I have NEVER seen/had a company offer a relocation package... that is "part" of the reason I am still working where I am.
A look through Monster.com most the jobs have "no relocation" listed on them.
I would almost say "Be happy you got something!"
I will tell you a related story. I was a consultant on an open-ended contract for 2.5 years. The company re-organized and I was given less than two weeks to either take a 30% pay cut or leave. I immediately started looking for other work, but stuck around for a couple of months while I found a new position. The one thing I did do was to calmly, rationally let everyone that was in a similar position know what had happened. After I left, they gave a whole group of consultants (about 20 people) the same ultimatum. Since they were prepared for the new offer from my story, all of them resigned, simultaneously. The company back-pedaled on the ultimatum and allowed those consultants to stay on under their current terms. It was still detrimental to the company, however, because 10 of the 20 left anyway.
Several of those 20 people thanked me for sharing my troubles because they were better prepared. The details of your experience may help someone else not make the same mistake later. It may even make the business involved change their practices.
Still, with a plan, you only get the best you can imagine. I'd always hoped for something better than that. -CP
thats simply not true. typical liberal entitlement mentality
It's wrong to think that you're entitled to something that somebody, reasonably empowered to do so, told you were going to get, in writing? Can you please explain that logic to me? Apparently somebody else agrees with you too, as you're currently +1 Insightful.
If a liberal mentality means refusing to be screwed over by an employer that can't get it's representatives on the same page with regards your compensation, then I'm happy to be a liberal. I guess conservatives are happy with being compensated at less than the agreed on rate? Or was I simply trolled?
--
$tar -xvf
What's not true? There are labor boards in many states who enforce labor laws on your behalf which do not interfere with your tort rights. Stupid troll. When did Rush Limbaugh get mod points?
_damnit_
It's my job to freeze you. -- Logan's Run
this is one of the most annoying things you will learn out in the corporate world. the person who actually wants you, will tell you almost anything that he/she thinks you want to hear. I have been burned in the past by taking someone's word, thinking that what they say will become reality. However, burned i became, especially once dealing with corporate.
so, my lesson for you grasshopper, get anything discussed in writing in your offer, or copies of policies they refer to and you will be much happier.
This could be an honest mistake by the hiring manager, I'll wager it most likely is, but sadly, the 'corporate' policy is what will win, unless of course, it's in your letter. After being burned, I have held up job acceptances going back and forth numerous times on what some HR people may deem insignificant. What they have lost sight of is that if it means enough to me to bring it up? It is nowhere near insignificant.
I forgot what I wanted to say, but honestly, it was important.
...package in detail? If not, you should not have signed it.
Honestly, this is common sense. If you get an employment offer that does not stipulate the exact terms of your employment and compensation, then you do not sign it. If you did not sign an employment offer or receive one prior to accepting in some other factor, you're naive. I don't say that to sound harsh but to re-align your expectations for business behavior. In all honestly it probably isn't a bait and switch as much as a stupid recruiter and poor communication with the company.
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When I started a job in a different city, I was told that I could only get a certain amount of relocation assistance. I needed to push the envelope of this because my wife couldn't relocate as fast, so I blew my budget on housing instead of on moving expenses. I was frugal with moving costs (I packed myself, etc), and I ended up having a small amount of moving expenses I paid out of pocket.
When the VP of our group heard I had additional expenses, he said "just continue submitting your receipts." So though I knocked myself out to fit what they said was my budget, they were willing to give me more. I guess the moral is that it never hurts to ask, and it is better to ask for forgiveness than permission.
Maybe they aren't trying to be sinister, maybe the person who made the offer simply didn't know what he could and couldn't offer you, maybe their relocation policy recently changed...it could very well had been an honest mistake...which doesn't make it "ok" by any means, but possibly give the company a chance to confirm their business practices.
In a world of acronyms, the words are the real victims.
Uh, did everyone forget Hanlon's Razor?
Make a polite phone call to the person who made the original offer and tell them what happened. Maybe they can straighten things out. If they can't fix it, or they don't admit they promised it, you have learned something useful about a possible future employer with no risk to yourself or reputation.
-Jeff
That you quit. Right now. They may promise you more money, more women, more booze, anything to make you accept the offer while look for someone else that is "less trouble". Trust me, you don't want to work for them. If they screw you around before you even start, then they will be even worse when you actually turn up. You will probably be miserable there anyway. If you are still unsure what to do, go out for a beer with you new co-workers. After a few drinks, you will be in a much better position to gauge the mood of the workforce. Something tells me it won't be positive.
People who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.
Step 1. Call your new boss and tell him: 1. The company is refusing to honor the terms of the offer, and 2. If the company does not honor the terms of the offer, your acceptance is rescinded. Wait 48 hours and find out if he has good news for you.
Step 2. Call the HR Director, tell him you're hopping mad and you expect him to honor the relocation terms specified in the job offer. Wait 24 hours and spend the time tracking down the phone number of the relevant office at the state corporation commission for the state in which you were to have worked. Call and get the name of an actual case worker there. If the HR Director does not have good news, advise him that you have spoken with so-and-so at the state corporation commission and intend to file a fraud complaint.
Step 3. Beg your current boss to keep you on for a while. You'll still have to find a new job pronto but at least you'll keep the paychecks coming for a while.
Step 4. Call your would-be boss again. Advise him that you rescind your acceptance of the offer due to fraud on the part of the HR department.
Step 5. Spend $200 with a lawyer to see if you are entitled to any damages as a result of the company's fraud.
Step 6. Post a hate-page on the web, but stick to the straight facts so they can't sue you for libel. Step 6 is optional but it feels so good.
Note that if they refuse to honor the terms of the offer they made you, the job is lost. I know you don't want to give up on it but do yourself a favor: walk away. If they'll screw you this blatently at the front end, they'll screw you far worse down the line when you're already moved.
Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
> what they most need is sheeple
Sheeple! That's my new word for the day.
Sheeple: n, people who tend to act like sheep. Contraction of sheep and people. ex. Listen up, sheeple! I want you all working 'til midnight tonight so you can make me look good for the presentation tomorrow.
Mmmm. Sheeple.
1.) Talk to the person that hired you, and the person that you are going to report to.
2.) Don't send out your resignation letter.
3.) tell personell you can't afford to relocate without the relocation package deal that you agreed upon
4.) All else fails, keep your old job, file a small claims suit for the max that you can get, that way a sleezeball
laywer doesn't get any money.
Haha, flamebait now. When I saw it, it was at + insightfult.
Anyway, there's a reason we have written agreements- and the reason is so people don't walk all over them. If that's entitlement, damn right, mark me liberal!
"It is possible to commit no errors and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." -Peak Performance
You should have been provided with an offer letter detailing the amount of relocation (at least in terms of $$ and vendor) that you would sign. If they did not provide this and the offer was purely verbal then I imagine it would take the form of any other verbal agreement. I used to work in HR and this was standard practice to include the total amount (i.e.: Offer relocation services with Company X not to exceed X dollars over X amount of time). Offer letter should include other details such as annual salary, sign on bonus, benefit plan, retention bonus and annual bonus if applicable.
Don't forget about the Guacamole !
... "I'll put Strychnine in the guacamole"
Mumbling to self
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
But what it comes down to is which person made a mistake:
A. The recruiting person described the standard package badly or
B. The employee heard/remembered it incorrectly.
Without something in writing, the employee may in fact be in the wrong. That is part of the reason why it is so hard to prove in court. For something like a relocation package, I would definitely want a written, signed copy of what was offered.
If you have that, show it to the relocation guy and say "This is what I was promissed. If I don't get it, I have a valid cause for legal actions. The fact that you have a company policy of ignoring written promisses is neither a legal justification nor is it an ethical act. It will cause the company many problems. Please explain the siutuation to your boss and have him call me back to discuss this extremely important ethical issue."
If you don't have that, your only hope is to call the recruiter and discuss with them what was originally promissed and any compensation you can get if the recruiter agrees the company has reneged on his original offer.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
The hiring manager was authorized to speak for the company, and they have an obligation to honour his commitments. The proper response to him overstating things is to discipline him, not renege on their commitments.
I heard about this story where these guys were getting screwed over by their job. So they came up with a plan to steal from the company, but where it would go unnoticed. See, every financial transaction had fractions of a penny associated with it. They take those fractions of a penny and deposit it into their own accounts, through a program that my super elite hacker friend of my sister's friend wrote. I heard they ended up with over a million dollars in a short period of time. True story. I think they even based a movie off of it. Maybe you can do something like that?
The relocation package amount is always specified in a contract for a new hire, should he be elligible for such a package. If you did sign it, you knew about the amount. If the amount didn't appear in your contract, you should have known and not sign anything. Unfortunately, it's as simple as that and you should be more careful next time to secure your rear end before doing any move.
In Delaware at least, a verbal contract is binding. Legally, the company must honor it.
The problem is that you have to prove the contract was made, and without a written copy that can be difficult.
The recruiter probably made an mistake. It is unlikely a recruiting tactic. Communicate you situation to Human Resources in writing. Save copies of all communications. Keep the tone of your communications positive. If you don't have an immediate alternative, figure a way to make a low cost relocation to your new job, and then start looking for a new job immediately. Unfortunately, it is unlikely you have enough evidence to support legal action against the company and/or the recruiter, and even if you do it is probably not worth the time and effort. Try not to make a bad situation worse. Stay positive and friendly as much as possible. Cut your losses and move on to a different company as soon as you can. Put a negative experience like this behind you and concentrate on the future.
Problem is: amount in dispute = X. Lawyer consult = X + a zillion. That is how it always works.
The deck is stacked, the house always, wins, and as long as you keep that firmly in mind you are never disapointed.
- Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum.
About five years ago I actually got a relocation package that was BETTER than offered.
I accepted a promotion with the company I had been with for two years, but in a different city. They offered full moving expenses, days off and travel expenses to look for a place to live, etc.
Turns out that my wife and I decided to split at that time. Since she got the majority of the household goods (which was totally okay with me), the company agreed to move her to a town that was actually 100 miles further away than my destination, AND reimbursed me for a self-move rental truck for my stuff.
While the split (and subsequent divorce) were tough, my company's compassionate attitude made an unpleasant experience much less stressful.
Serving your airship needs since 1995.
Hahahaha... No... Seriously.
If you have a written contract and they contest it, it just makes the offense more aggregious. If they are not willing to honor their terms when they are trying to hire you on, what do you think they'll do when you are hired?
I'd say if they don't fix it toot sweet you best keep looking. Jobs hardly ever get better when you're hired on, they decline the longer you work. You'd best find out their true face now.
My current job they welched on my drug test and made me pay for it myself. 3 rounds of wage cuts later.. *SIGH*
"Don't fear death... fear not living..." -me
It is how companies do things.
This should only be an issue between your lawyer and HR. It is a bad excuse and an abuse of you to make you an offer and then say "oops sorry are policy doesn't allow for it." It is their responsibility to know and apply there policy. You should not have to baer the burden of there error.
I ahve been through situations where what was promised got 'superceded' by policy. My lawyer handled each situation with a simple phone call or letter.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Yes, talk to the hiring manager. Often, these things are compartmentalized and the occupants of said compartments may have histories you're not aware of -- and your polite "excuse me, but" to one person may result in an immediate burning of the phone lines to everyone as far up to the top as is required to beat the tar out of the moron(s) causing you grief. It doesn't necessarily reflect a systemic flaw in the company, it just identifies one possible idiot in the ranks--one that you may never have to deal with again.
Start taking boxes of staples and pencils until the amounts even out. If that's not fast enough, look for other ways to waste money anonymously. Egg the building, driving up maintenance fees. Begin to send enormous amounts of unsolicited internal company mailings. Not emails, but those inter company envelopes. Fill them with viagra adds, or photocopies of your butt, and send them to various departments.
Some times Karma needs a little help, just ask Earl.
IANAL, but I'm pretty sure here in Massachusetts a verbal contract is still a valid contract. Maybe a lawyer can step in and add more or tell me I'm off base?
Most of companies I've worked for/with don't have 'relocation' department; They simply outsource these stuff. chances are that this is a simple/deliberate miscommunication on the side company that does the outsourced job of relocating you.
Talk to your recruiter about this. Spell it out for him/her; Be completely polite but precise and to the point. It did work for me.
This
Contact your hiring manager (the person who you're going to work for, not the HR drone) immediately and politely but directly describe the problem. Tell them that the HR person is giving you an offer that is different from what the hiring manager offered, and that you'll be unable to take the job unless the issue is resolved.
At the same time, tell your current employer that you may be available for contracting.
If the hiring manager doesn't fix it, or tells you that they can't, then look for work elsewhere. Getting a promise pulled out from you during the *offer* period is surely an indication that you'll get more of this once you're hired, and are less likely to leave. Life's too short to work for a place like that.
Good luck with this, and remember to be polite but firm, and start lining up other interviews now in case the offer isn't resolved.
--Pat
Had an engineer come work for the company I was at. Moved 1/2 way across the country. About a month later, all hell broke loose becasue he had an offer letter that said his relocation expenses would be covered, but when he turned in the receipts, they were very high.....he never mentioned he had a bunch of prize horses he had to bring along.....
As far as I know, he got the money...but was fired for "other" reasons about a year later...
Listen, if they're screwing you before your first day of work, they're going to continue screwing you once they get you into the job.
Unemployment does suck, but relocating to a new city with no support system (family, friends, etc.) and into a job where they are doing this kind of thing the first day sucks more. You think you're going to have any kind of job security there?
-j
Note: explaining the joke makes it unfunny. If you would have just kept it without the note, some mod points would be in order.
Remember, open source is free as in speech, not free as in bear.
ask Mel, he looks fairly amicable:n tlawyer.htm
http://www.myemploymentlawyer.com/Meet-myemployme
If the company does react that way, then he is better off not working for them.
I know I may come across casual and naive, but years of experience working in and with companies has told me that if they are screwing you at day 0, then every day from that point forward will be misery. In a way, your cynicism is well placed - something is wrong here. But to roll over and present your genitalia without stating something just screws you in the long run. Better to have a clear contract upfront and know where the lines are, instead of having some bureaucrat use their discretion.
The thing is, there are people and places that are fully above-board. Even in corporate America. Even corporations. The problem is when people use their psychological contracts instead of real contracts. Business is business,and you should never expect more than a written contract asserts. If all you have is someone's word, you don't have anything. If their word is truly good, they won't have a problem writing it down.
I'm surprised you're even bothering to ask advice about this situation--it seems like a no-brainer to me.
Moving across the country to accept a new job involves significant risk. You are taking a leap into the unknown. You might decide that you really hate your new location, or that you can't find a place to live at a price you can afford. You might find that the job is not to your liking, that your boss is an abusive jerk, or any of a long list of other possible negatives. Plus there is the possibility of financial loss, and the certainty of high stress involved in making any geographical move. If you have a family, the risks and stress become much greater.
The only factor to counterbalance all these negatives is your faith in your new employer: you are trusting them to deliver on the promises they made to you with respect to your job duties and working conditions--and with helping to compensate you for the financial cost of moving, as was promised to you.
The key word here is trust. Sometimes, you just have to go with your gut instincts, and trust people. But trusting people whose actions show a lack of good faith is a dumb thing to do; it's like asking to be abused.
It may be that the headhunter knowingly made false promises to you so that he could get his commission. But the headhunter represents the employer, not you--he is their agent. Depending on exactly what happened, the employer may very well have a moral obligation to keep the headhunter's promise to you--but even that isn't the heart of the issue. The bottom line is this: if these people really wanted to hire you, then they would go out of their way to make you happy, to make you feel good about taking this job. They haven't done that, have they?
As for legalities, like "get it in writing, stupid", they're irrelevant in a situation like this. A deal is a deal, whether it's written on paper or spoken. If the other party breaks the deal before you've made any real investment in it, walk away. It really doesn't matter if the law is on your side or not. The law won't buy back wasted time, suffering or broken marriages. This is not a legal matter, it's a matter of common sense.
I hope you don't feel any moral obligation to take this job. You have been released from any such obligation by their show of bad faith. Write a letter to the employer's HR department telling them politely that you are refusing their job offer and why; be sure to cc it to the CEO and the headhunter.
I hope you haven't already given notice to your present employer. If you have, do anything you must to get them to let you stay. Chances are that you are a valuable employee, and they will be glad you're not leaving.
Great men are almost always bad men--Lord Acton's Corollary
Also consider that you had accepted the offer based upon false information, so you can decide to go back and renegotiate a new contract or just withdraw completely. It might be easier for them to just give you more money in salary or vacation or something rather than to deviate from some standard relocation package policy. Be flexible.
Say you are being stiffed $5000 in relocation expenses, then just see if they will give you a new offer for that much more in salary. Leave your intentions vague. If they just say no, then you have to decide if it is worth it to you just as you decided with the original offer, which is now effectively less than you thought it was. In any case, you accepted the offer based on the false information they provided you so you can withdraw.
Could be an honest mistake, which you should give them the benefit of the doubt on, but the fact of the mistake certainly gives you enough leverage to renegotiate parts of your contract or to withdraw from the accepted offer.
My guess is that they will not budge on the relocation expenses, but might on salary unless you squeezed every last penny from them in the first place or unless they have terribly rigid salary structures for particularly defined positions.
But as the previous post said, you have to decide what it is worth to you.
This is an obvious lie. It's equivalent to having a company policy that calls for blowing off legally binding contracts (and verbal contracts are legal). Ask for a copy of the policy in writing. They won't be able to provide it.
Here's the other thing. If you tread lightly here, you'll be forever branded by management as a fool who is easily manipulated. Tell the relocation manager in no uncertain terms that you do not appreciate his trying to "play" you. If you waffle on this, you'll have little to look forward to with this company.
in other news, snow is cold.
I don't see why 1)anyone is surprised that a large company is unorganized, and 2)suggest to get Johnny Cochran's spirit to sue the pants off of these unscrupulous folks.
Here's an idea: chaulk it up to a lesson learned. No harm , no foul. Next time the submitter may be more careful.
Unless you were given a specific offer in writing, including the details of the relocation offer, your hosed. The verbal agreement is worth exactly the paper it's printed on
-- 73 de KG2V For the Children - RKBA! "You are what you do when it counts" - the Masso
So here is the story. At one time I was working with a non profit to attract professional leadership. After reviewing several candidates, we chose one and negotiated an offer. Due to lack of resources, we lowballed all the numbers, reducing the numbers on a daily basis as the costs mounted. In the end we barely covered moving expenses and offered a ridiculous first year salary. We got away with this because of the job marker, but also promised more money as it became available. This money, or course, never fully materialized.
The reality was that the resources never materialized for this position, and there was never any realistic expectation that such resources would develop, and the promises though couched in modifiers, were nevertheless disingenuous. This may be the best case scenario for your situation. The job may be good, the firm might be good, but if the motivation is money I suspect it will not be maximized.
prior to telling your current employer you were leaving, if you did get the offer in writing then it is a non-issue, i doesn't matter what their policy is, they made a legal and binding promise of intent, get a lawyer.
And by the way, you might want to reconsider going to work for a company where they are that incompetent and/or dishonest.
my old sig is obsolete, and I haven't come up with a stupid enough new one yet
Relocation is just that, money to cover relocation. It is actually taxed differently. Because it is taxed differently, they cannot pay you more than it costs you to relocate. HR knows this, your hiring manager might not. It is non-negotiable. It is federal law.
However, if you just take the whole amount as a 'Signing bonus' it'll be taxed at normal rate and you'll just have to deduct relocation from your taxes separately.
Just a troll. Ha Ha
Before you go to work for this company, please consider that employees typically must sign a contract agreeing to stay with a company for a specified period or repay all or a portion of company paid relocations expenses.
You can't just cut and run as so many here have suggested.
It was an IT services company. Except I was already at the job site when they pulled their magic now you see it, now you don't act. But it was my mistake because they told me they would "help" with relocation. Turned out their definition of help and mine were quite different. That was the same job the customer described the "intent" of making the job permanent. In this case the road to a hellish job in a hell hole of a town was paved with helpful good intentions.
The others telling you this is a big, red flag are absolutely correct. If it starts out bad, there's nowhere to go but down, especially if this is a company renting you to another company. You will have endless niggling disagreements because they're squeezing you on one side and the customer on the other. The customer will always be expecting you to pay the tab, and in disagreements with your employer the policy will always be on their side. Besides, it's a cheap chisel and if you roll over on this they're going to keep chipping away at your hide.
Go back to your current employer, tell them you changed your mind and wanted to give them first chance before putting them through the expense of finding someone new and yourself through the expense of finding another job.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
Coming out of school I received an offer from IBM, a company that would certainly meet your criteria of "large-enough" and which is well-known for having plenty of bureacracy in place to make sure they cross all their legal t's and dot all their legal i's, via letter directly from the HR department. No way would IBM let anyone except HR make a job offer.
Nevertheless, several weeks after I started working the HR department sent me an email to say they were changing the offer terms because they had failed to read both my resume and the extensive application forms I had filled out before they made the offer and were only just noticing that I did not have a degree that I had never claimed to have but which IBM internal policy required of everyone in the job they hired me for and which I was already doing.
(no, it wasn't a technical writing position. ha ha.)
The moral is: it is exactly those companies which are large-enough to have a big HR department which are dumbly-bureacratic enough ("procrustean") to go to the gates of heck to give stupid rules priority over legal contracts since they're also paying enough to permanent-staff lawyers to drown you if you try to make them adhere to the contract's terms.
> Was the offer made in writing? If so, they are obligated to honor it
They are legally obligated to honor the agreement, even if it was verbal. Of course, if it is verbal, they can deny the agreement was ever made. The trick is to get them to admit (in writing) that there was a verbal agreement in the first place.
You've actually been done a sevice by this screwup.
This is a clear example of bad faith and high handedness. God alone knows what they'll do to you once you sign up.
I'm a pimp for banks, and if one did this to a candidate, I would already be working my way up the management chain, what's yours doing ?
You need to find a different job at a better company, you can't trust these jerks. A bit of naming and shaming would be a service to us all. One thing that's worth remembering is that for a hiring manager recruitment is a tedious time consuming business that you don't want to repeat if you don't have to.
You may want to give your new boss one that is exactly one chance to sort this out.
But personally, I'd run, not walk away.
Dominic Connor,Quant Headhunter
I signed on with eCharge in the Fall of 2000. They promised the moon, even the VP that interviewed me told me everything was fine. They paid for my move from Boise to the Seattle area.
On the day my wife was closing on the sale of our house in Boise (Jan 2001), employees were in a conference room in Seattle being told the company was shuttering its doors retroactively to the beginning of our Christmas vacation.
A few months later, the relocation company that did my relocation, approached me for the cost of the move, corporate apartment (I had been in it for 30 days), shipping, real estate search, etc. I told them to go jump. They told me they would sue.
At the mention of that word, I realized, it's good to have a brother who is a lawyer. We crafted a nice letter informing the group that their contract was with eCharge, not me. My contract was with eCharge. So, in essence, we were both screwed by eCharge. That shut them up. I didn't hear from them again, and they went out of business. A collection agency trying to collect from them, called me, they got the same response. A year later, Mayflower shipping called me trying to collect from me. They got the same response. While I came out of it o.k., it cost me a year and a half of BS.
GET IT IN WRITING AND MAKE THEM STICK TO IT.
Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong fix.
Better yet, take the job, and find out how badly they are out of compliance with their Microsoft software licenses (pretty much all big companies are... some quite largely so) and then squeal on them so they get a BSA audit. One of my former employers got busted shortly after I left them (nope, it wasn't me who ratted on them, it was another co-worker) and Microsoft, the BSA and Informix all showed up one day with three US Marshalls and a federal search warrant. I heard it cost them almost $200K to get right with their software licenses. Within 18 months after that, the company was bankrupt and being liquidated by their creditors.
They made a promise, which you relied on, to your detriment. Ask them if losing a lawsuit supersedes their internal relocation policy.
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
This is such an easy solution
1) Talk to your recruiter and find out what is happening. This could just be left hand doing something that right hand does not know about. If you don't get this resolved how you want it to be resolved, don't take the job. There is plenty of work out there for people who want to work and have skills. Recruiters and HR in general hate it when this happens. When Amazon.com moved me and the moving company screwed up and I asked my HR rep what to do. They made me sit down and tell them everything about the move so they could contact the moving company and get it resolved. To quote them, "If they screw up your move, we're not happy because you are not happy and we also paid them."
2) Do not act on or believe anything that anyone is saying until you have the written contract to sign. Read it, understand it, don't quit your job until you have signed this and sent it back and the recruiter says they have it. Make it clear that you will not take the job until you get the paper work. Make a copy of everything for your records.
3) If they still screw you over, then you don't have to stay there. You may just work one year and then find another job. The company will lose in the long run because they will not be able to hold top talent. Your life does not begin nor end with a job. Trust me, this will hurt the company in the long run much more than it hurts you.
4) Move on with your life no matter what happens. If you get screwed over, then just suck it up and move on. Don't be bitter and don't hold a grudge (Although, you might suggest to others in the industry not to work there). Just move on with your life and enjoy it.
Linux O Muerte!
These relocation packages typically include a clause that state; if you leave within a year, either voluntarily or due to termination, they can demand you repay all relocation monies.
I'm in that boat right now, I even have another offer on the table, but I have to wait.
A goal is a dream with a deadline
IANAL, however for a person or department to contradict what transpired as part of your employment negotiations is effectively a breach of contract. If it isn't in writing, then it is difficult to enforce it. You ARE right to call it "bait and switch".
I have meekly accepted similar things in the past as I really wanted a particular job. It did however diminish the level of trust I had for that organisation which compounded into further problems down the track. It is important to discuss this matter with whoever hired you and make sure they are aware of this injustice. How you do it is up to you, but my approach would be polite and frank.
Good Luck
Slashdot: Where nerds gather to pool their ignorance
Same thing also happened to British Rail quite a while back. It went on for a couple of years until someone noticed the missing half penny on their payslip and actually bothered to complain to payroll about it.
I had this more or less happen to me after hurricane Katrina. Chalk it up to youthful ignorance. I was sitting in Houston after the hurricane when my boss and his boss called me and asked me if I would go to Atlanta temporarily. They told me to keep all of my receipts for fuel/moving expenses becuase they would pay for the relocation, AND they would see what they could do to get me some money from the relief fund our company set up in order to help me replace anything that may have been lost. Of course, I agreed. I was happy to still have a job, and they could have just as easily told me to move without any sort of moving expenses if I wanted to keep my job.
Long story short, corporate was dragging their feet about the whole deal, and it got to the point where I either had to start paying rent at my place in New Orleans again, or find one in Atlanta and move my stuff out there. I litereally had ~2.5 weeks to find an apartment in Atlanta and arrange to have everything moved in to it, which wasn't easy considering every moving company in New Orleans was booked solid. It was only several weeks after I had moved that I was told that my company would not, in fact, pay my moving expenses per se and that all I would receive was a nominal ammount from the relief fund. It didn't even cover the cost of the moving company, let alone meals, gas, hotel, etc. Several weeks later I was also told that Atlanta didn't warrant a cost of living upgrade either, despite the client I was working for deciding otherwise for their employees who came from New Orleans.
Basically, I felt like I got used. They'd been trying to find somebody else for the Atlanta office, and they managed to get an already trained and knowledgeable employeee at no extra cost to them. (The relief fund was funded by employee donations.) I stuck it out longer than I should have in Atlanta. It took a long hard look at my financial situation for me to realize that they weren't doing me any favors, so I quit. I did have a "wage increase" discussion with my manager when I put in my notice, but when he told me that the best they'd be able to do is a few percent, I basically told him not to bother. When your rent alone has gone up by nearly $4000, an extra $1000 a year just isn't going to make a huge difference.
Anyway, I learned my lesson: to be sure I got it in writing the next time I was offered any sort of relocation package.
If Murphy's Law can go wrong, it will.
Assuming you haven't quit your current job. You need to got back to whomever made the initial offer, get things in writing and renegotiate salary and benefits based on what the relocation manager told you.
If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
I live in the Philadelphia area and put nothing past companies that operate in and around said area. Don't get me wrong, Philly is a great place to live with access to activities, but the corporate culture in the area, in a word, sucks. I have been the victim of unscrupulous recruiting. In fact, after an interview, a recruiter told me I had the job and gave me directions to the client and even told me the date and time they were expecting me. So, I showed up. Apparently, they were not expecting me at all and I got an unwelcome escort off site from security despite having done nothing threatening or wrong. Upon contacting the recruiter, all he did was apologize half-heartedly. I asked to speak to his supervisor, got his voicemail, and he never returned the call. Finally, two days later, I found out from the branch manager of recruiting agency that my recruiter had surrepitiously quit. I had spent money and time to travel to center city three times for different interviews. The scrupulous contracting company would have offered me some money in terms of compensation. I asked the branch manager what had happened and his feeble explanation was a mistake had happened. I asked for one week's compensation from the contract and he laughed and terminated the phone call. Proceed carefully my friend, for your move is longer distance and be wary!
Yes, it does reflect badly on them. In fact, it's a huge warning sign. If this company treats prospective employees this way, imagine how crappy it will be to work there.
If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
And you forget to mention that, although taking this position may require some courage, he also has a pretty good hand to play. People who have been offered a job and are feeling excited and grateful and are hoping everything goes their way and don't want to blow it often forget one important thing: HIRING PEOPLE COSTS MONEY.
If they have made it through the process of interviewing candidates for long enough that they want to offer you a job, that probably means that a whole bunch of senior level managers have taken time out of their days to look at candidates' resumes, talk to them on the phone, talk to them in person, talk amongst themselves. All that time is time they didn't spend doing their real jobs. What's more, they have a whole HR department whose salaries are spent on exactly this kind of hiring-and-firing stuff, every day. This money is all ALREADY SPENT, whether they hire you or not.
So, after all that effort and money is spent and they make you an offer, they probably actually want to hire you. You shooting down their offer is the last thing they want to hear. They want this process over with, already. "Let's get this guy on board, pronto." So it may not seem like it when you're sitting at home hoping the job really does come through, but if you've made it this far in the process, you actually do have a pretty good negotiating leg to stand on.
But if you don't ... if it seems like they're playing "hardball," or moving around the terms of the deal ... then it may be a clue that you didn't negotiate particularly good terms to begin with. They might have looked at a few different candidates and decide you were the low-rent option, the one they could push around. And, to echo advice that dozens of people have posted here already, that's probably not the kind of job offer you want to accept, anyway.
Breakfast served all day!
... especially if you were wise enough to insist on the relo package details in the written job offer. Remember, if it's not in writing, it's not yours.
Your hiring manager is your champion. They are the one that justified your extravagant salary to the higher-ups. They are the one that made HR find you. They are the one that wants you and not those other scrubs that applied and even interviewed. They know the ins and outs of their company and can get the right wheels greased in seconds. Just give them a call and tell them there is a snag on their end that you would appreciate some help with.
Be reasonable, but firm and insist that they correct this and stick to the agreement or you are going to be in a very awkward position. While already quitting your current job may make it feel like you've lost leverage, you are still in a strong position because you haven't started working with the new company yet--they don't want to lose you! Especially over something they already said you could have.
As a regular hiring manager, I've seen my share of great candidates get lost because of HR's mistakes. One of my peers lost a great candidate because HR stood too firm on the salary offer, when he called the candidate to find out what happened he discovered that they guy only needed $2K more to say yes!! For some reason, HR failed to discover this and had too much ego to make the deal happen, sending this hiring manager back into the process over $2K.
Call your new boss, he'll sort it out. If he doesn't, walk--you didn't want to move anyway.
These opinions guaranteed or your money back.
Do not take this job, if you can possibly afford not to.
What every reply so far is missing is the part about "they have a policy that the relocation policy supersedes any offer". If they *have a policy* about it, this is common and is probably done intentionally to sweeten the offer.
Yes, it is common practice in large companies.
However, you are in luck!
It sounds, from your description of the offer, that they included details of the relocation package in the offer. Which means you have it in writing. Which means it is a contract. Which means that you should tell the HR person that you have already accepted the job, which means that you have accepted the terms of the contract the offered.
You have the option of telling them that they will honor the terms of the contract, or you will sue them for the difference plus attorney's fees. Also add that you have every intention of honoring your part of the contract by continuing to work there, and if they try to fire you for filing suit, you will sue them again for wrongful termination, damages, and attorney's fees. Make sure the Recruiter and your new boss know of your intentions to hold them to the contract by legal force if necessary.
It is that straight forward. Good Luck.
JUST DO IT
Offering a relocation bonus is certainly within the scope of a hiring manager. However, I wasn't really referring to legal obligations, but to moral ones. It doesn't seem wise to relocate for a company already pulling shenanigans.
I posted this earlier, but typically, they have a clause in the relocation contract that says if you leave within a year you have to pay back all relocation monies. I.e. you won't be able to start job-hunting "immediately". Besides that, you don't want too many "job-hops" on your resume either.
A goal is a dream with a deadline
and Google will open up a new data center near you, and they're hiring like crazy this year, or so said a recent /. posted article. Problem SOLVED!1!!
Your welcome!
This is the NSA, we're gonna geet U h@x0r5! Also, what is a h@x0r5?
If they give you what you want, there will be resentment effecting you in ways you cant imagine coming from people who can fuck you from the shadows.
If you accept less, you will have the very same resentment. Just count your losses and move on.
This happened to a friend of mine, who had his offer signed and in writing, and was able to force the company to pay him the cost of relocation in cash, even though he raised such a stink that they no longer wanted him.
No substitute for paper. No paper, no job. Consider it a lesson well learned and find something else.
A lawyer? What good is that going to do? All the lawyer is going to do is try to take every penny you have.
If you were handed over an offer letter, and the relocation is spelled out in detail, then that is a binding document and you can push harder. If it isn't, you are screwed.
..." followed with a few paragraphs explaining the things I listed above. The offer letter is sometimes handed with an addendum with the rest of these things, and you return both signed when you accept the job.
Actually, you are screwed regardless of the outcome:
1. It was spelled out in the letter. You raise a stink, which gets you singled out as the new asshole that would not stick with the program. You won't last a year.
2. It was not spelled out in the letter. Pwned. They don't owe you jack squat. You are now singled out as the new asshole that was making things up when he got hired. You won't last a year.
3. It was spelled out, you stop whining about it. This sets a bad precedent for them to do it again and stick it to all new hires.
4. It was not spelled out, you stop whining about it. You are now the boy that cried wolf. Same outcome as #2 but it may pass.
The end result is you'll get screwed regardless, and your new coworkers may or may not hate your guts. This is of course too late for you, but what about others about to jump ship (we like to call it "Operation Bail the Fuck Out" or BTFO):
An offer letter is a legal instrument. These things usually spell out in great detail:
1. what you are to do
2. who to report to
3. salary/rate criteria
4. medical coverage
5. disability coverage
6. full time status
7. location of work
8. overtime criteria
9. bonuses
10. performance appraisals
11. relocation
12. education benefits
13. liability
14. IP credit
15. At will employment clause
16. drug testing requirements
17. financial disclosure requirements
18. NDAs
19. Covenants to not compete
20. company property disclaimer
Etc.
A well written offer letter basically says "thanks for considering us, we are delighted to offer you a position as a [whatever] for [salary]
Pedro
----
The Insomniac Coder
They offered, you accepted, they tried to change the deal.
That kind of behavior, and the resulting breach of the "King's Peace" when you whacked them over the head with a sword was the reason the 16th-century "Statute of Frauds" became part of English Law.
Previous to that only thing the King cared about was direct Murder, Assault or Battery.
--dave (slightly tongue-in-cheek but still serious) c-b
davecb@spamcop.net
The only questions you have here is how bad you want the job?
If you did not want it pretty bad you would be barking at them about the very thing you asked. I mean, be honest with yourself do you want the job bad enough to forgo the relocation money or not? If you want the job that bad, they will give the you howdy HIHO when ever they want because they know they have you bent over the couch. If you stick to your guns you might get labeled as a trouble maker, but at least you are not taking it on the chin.
I would, in your case would simply write back what you are will to accept as an offer and see what they say. Just be willing to walk away.
The Neck.
.
This is an indication of how messed up the place is; you're caught up in internal politics / disputes before day one.
Imagine how it will be on day two, month six, year one. It can only get worse.
Decline. And do them a favour - do it in writing, and tell them why.
A message from our sponsor
An accepted offer cannot be treated this way. Here's why:
You are entitled to the compensation in the offer. Anything less is "substantive dismissal".
You can now NOT work for the company, and receive ALL benefits for a period of at least your probation. Settle out for three months of salary, and all (potential) relocation expenses, signing bonus, etc.
Since you are now entitled to this much, the offer on the table is: (1) you are going to be a nice guy, and accept the original offer, or (2) will accept a payout, or (3) will take a higher signing bonus (to pay for your unanticipated legal expenses), and take the offer.
The ball is in your court.
This is not legal advice -- talk to your lawyer.
Just another "Cubible(sic) Joe" 2 17 3061
Come on - too well worded to be submitted by most "Anonymous Cowards", not enough information to actually get a real useful discussion, but enough information to spruce up a slow news day.
I'm really starting to hate Slashdot.
And based on what has happened with respect to your offer, I would seriously question the integrity of the HR departement.
Keep in mind, you will have to deal with HR at some point. Be it for promotions, pay raises, or even unhappiness with you desk location. Additionally, should you have more serious issues like not enjoying your assignment or your boss turns out to be a jerk, you will be completely dependent upon their HR department for handling these issues.
It sounds like you will be dealing with a less than diligent (and possibly unscrupulous) HR. To some extent, HR is a reflection of the upper level management. So you should not expect much different from upper level management.
Don't walk... RUN!!!
20+ years development says...
1. Never work salary, hourly only.
2. Never quit a job until you have another offer, in writing, specifying ALL the details.
3. Never let on you are going to quit a job until actually giving notice.
4. Never let on to recruiters that you don't have other offers.
5. Never trust a recruiter. It's not personal, it's business.
6. Never stay with a company out of loyalty, they won't return the favor.
7. Never argue about insignificant development details.
They want it red, it's red. Now yellow, it's yellow. Back to red, no problem (see #1).
8. Good develeopers don't get promoted, a development 'career' usually ends with...development.
9. Can't find a decent job? Take a low paying (hourly) contract and keep looking.
10. Never spend more than 65% of what you are making.
11. Work 1099 or corp to corp whenever possible. Tax benefits usually outweight all else.
12. STFU when first getting a position. Be quiet and listen. You're new. You don't know everything.
13. Take time off when you need it. You are not a slave. Be assertive if necessary.
14. Get your assignments done on time, earlier if possible.
15. A 'team player' follows #14 but is not responsible for helping other incompetant or lazy developers to do so.
16. More work != more productivity
17. Never discuss how much you are making with your peers.
18. Ask for increases in compensation when appropriate. It will not be magically given to you.
19. Take lunch hours. An hour, offsite, and not always with your peers.
20. Never give up your regular exercise to work more.
There are many others but that's a good start.
Unless that offer was in writing, fat chance anything can be done.
Oral agreements are way to hard to enforce.
Word to the wise: never quit a job until you have your offer in writing with details of the offer to your satisfaction.
If you get a bad response from someone that can authorize a fix the you know what the company is about.
"The relocation manager tells me that whenever there is conflict between their relocation policy and the offer, their internal relocation policy supersedes." That policy is just engineered to encourage duplicity. If it were the opposite, then people would actually have some incentive to get their shit together. I'd suggest you inform them that their internal relocation policy is superceded by your "suck my balls" policy. Alternatively, talk to your direct boss if you can. Relocations and recruitment have no real stake in your happiness since they won't ever see you again. Your boss, however, needs your expertise and goodwill. He/she will realise that being screwed on arrival is not great for the motivation. You'll also find that relocations become more and more accomodating as more people hear about the sleight-of-hand. Tread softly, however, you don't won't want to get branded as a malcontent and whinger.
Become self-employed. You will never have to work with abusive bosses again.
"Go ask a lawyer."
But I thought we hate lawyers?
Beauty is in the eye of the beerholder.
I work on the flip side of this situation writing up and delivering offers - not R&D but a hospital, and the situation is usually much simpler than these 'master evil plan' theories are suggesting. If numbers are different revert back to 'intent'. Was the intent of the verbal offer- to cover the cost of your move or move + bonus? Most companies truly want to cover your actual costs - really! Try to open the negotiation back up and ask that they commit to reimbursing you for your receipts (or actual costs).
A number of years ago, I changed jobs and moved 500 miles. The company that hired me offered relocation so I took it. In fact, they needed me to start immediately so part of the relo package was putting me up in a furnished apt for a couple months, a service to help me find an apt or house, movers and more. It seemed like a great package to me so I took it.
Reality is that all these costs are taxable and added to your income. Further the costs were ridiculasly high. Thousands for the 30 day stay in the furnished apt, a "service" that met with me once and basically just provided a written list of available apts - charged hundreds of dollars, movers who did a great job but were very expensive, in addition since they were storing my stuff for me, the storage costs were very high. In the end, I found an apt on my own so the expensive service was no real help to me at all just a waste of hundreds of dollars.
All told, the relo bill was very high and written into my employment agreement was that I would have to reimburse the company if I left before 1 year. Fine - that seemed very reasonable at the time.
Well, it turned out this company was a nightmare to work for - that was why they had to go to a headhunting service to find someone to begin with. No one local would work for them! Within a couple weeks, I knew I had made a huge mistake but I was stuck since I didn't want to repay the thousands of dollars in all these relo charges. In addition my taxes were higher since all these costs were taxable!
When I did quit (just after 1 year) and move back 500 miles, I used U-Haul and did it for a couple hundred bucks.
Now, my rule is to NEVER ACCEPT RELOCATION. If a company offers it, I will decline. If they need me to start instantly and can't wait for me to move myself, I say NO THANKS to that company.
... negotiating a relocation amount [whatever cost actually paid or expected to by covered] is not a "perk". It's a condition of employment. Many companies simply do not offer this as an option, and refuse to interview non-local candidates.
Unrestricted access to the company gym is a perk. Free parking is a perk. An option to purchase products at a reduced price is a perk.
Conditions of employment include, but are not limited to:
hours of employment
wage or salary
moving expenses
pass drug test [some companies]
When I got an offer letter from Apple, the relocation package was much smaller than the one described by the HR person during my interview. I called them on it, and they bumped my grade from 5 to 6 so they could offer the better relocation package.
Unfortunately, their relocation contractor (Cendant, I think?) was even flakier than Apple HR. After a bunch of mistakes, they eventually moved me and my stuff to Cupertino. My car in the process, which was too bad.
The story doesn't say a whole lot about the current situation. It says that the guy "...made plans to terminate my current job...". It doesn't say that he's actually left, yet. Nor does it say that he's actually relocated. Another thing missing is an explanation of the misinformation. Was it just because the person hiring him didn't know the specifics of the internal policy? Or, is the company really trying to do a bait and switch? There isn't a whole lot of evidence to conclude one way or the other.
Now, although I feel sorry for him, the fact remains that he definitely *shouldn't* have done this if he didn't have the agreement in writing. As stated elsewhere, the contract is what you have in writing; anything else is a bonus.
Having said that, I don't know what U.S. laws are relating to verbal contracts (don't live there, don't ever intend living there). In the UK, verbal contracts are generally binding, but are obviously hard to prove. Note that the original poster stated The relocation manager tells me that whenever there is conflict between their relocation policy and the offer, their internal relocation policy supersedes. This brings up some issues. If it could be proven in court that the relocation manager said this, does it imply that he/she knows that an offer was made, or are they simply reciting a general policy?
If the former, it implies that they are knowingly using their "policy" to renege on the verbal agreement. (Let's remember that if the agreement were in writing, this wouldn't- or shouldn't- fly, any more than "We agreed to pay you $40,000 in your contract, but that conflicts with our policy limiting your job to $25,000, so tough" would).
Even if the manager *didn't* know for sure about the verbal offer, the very existence of the "policy" is legally suspect, as its existence is only necessary if the company was routinely making verbal offers which it did not intend to fulfil. (This assumes that verbal contracts are binding in that jurisdiction).
Even if it could not be proven that the relocation manager said what he said in this specific case (let alone was aware of the terms of the original verbal offer), or that the policy he referred to was unwritten.... the company could implicate itself through a pattern of behaviour.
But... IANAL, particularly not an American one, and I wouldn't want to have to fight and prove this sort of stuff in court.
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
Go ask a lawyer.
(Written and authorised by Litigious Bastards Inc.)
It would be really great if the poster either under the "Anonymous Coward" post or by letting the editors update the main post told us: 1) What company he/she was joining? 2) What he/she will do/is doing/has done about the situation. Thanks!
I have a similar story. I worked a year's worth of contract jobs at this company. When a permanent job finally opened up as a result of some one leaving for another company, they offered me the job. I took their written-on-paper offer back to my desk and thought it over. Then I went back to my manager-to-be and we both signed it.
...?")
Later that week, HR started writing me e-mails about when my benefits and retirement plan would kick in. Their start dates were later than the start dates in my offer letter. I wrote back with the dates on my offer letter. They replied in typical HR prose with their dates. I called the HR person on the phone and asked to meet with her. I went to her office. We talked. She explained her side. I explained mine. She said the company's benefit and retirement start date calculations were complicated. I said that a person shouldn't have to be a lawyer just to figure out a simple job offer letter.
That same afternoon, I did a 30 minute presentation to the entire company on the launch of a new product line.
At day's end I got a call from my new manager. She wanted to see me in her office. She said that the HR director said that the HR admin I had met with said that I was talking to a lawyer over this offer letter nonsense. (Remember my wise crack about "you shouldn't have to be a lawyer
I was fired. Total employment time: 1 week.
... away from that new job.
You asked for advice.
(Of course, you get what you pay for is never more true than for advice from Slashdot.)
Most companies large enough to claim that kind of intransigent policy also have an ombudsman. Find out who it is at the new company, and discuss the matter with him (or her). If there isn't one, consider it strike two against ever taking a job with them. If there is, discussing the matter indicates a willingness to work to solve problems from within. In some cases, the ombudsman may have enough authority to solve the problem on the spot; if not, they can almost always make those involved (the HR rep, your hiring manager, and the headhunter) all line up and get their stories consistent, and probably in writing.
I'd make the headhunter the next focus. Make it clear that you understood such-and-such to be the offer, and he now not only needs to resolve the apparent discrepancy, but explain to you how and where the "confusion" arose so you can determine not only whether to back out, but whether the company, the headhunter personally, or both should be avoided in the future. The phrase "litigation is not a preferred option" may make a nice mantra. Try to avoid burning bridges, but be prepared to hold a lifetime grudge with clean conscience.
And, speaking of the future, add to your permanent list of dealbreakers: personal copies of all company policies that will apply to you at the start of employment must be provided to you in printed form for your review (with legal counsel) prior to final acceptance of employment, with a cover letter listing the policies by name and assuring completeness of the list. Make sure all aspects of the offer are in writing. In important non-dealbreakers, you now may want to put identifying the ombudsman on your pre-acceptance checklist as well, and consider paying a lawyer to review employment offers for booby traps.
Most important, take this as a learning experience: possibly painful, but non-fatal.
//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
after getting sued for defamation".
It's only defamation if it's a lie. And the plaintiff has to prove the person is knowingly telling a lie, which isn't easy otherwise all those weekly rags that publish dirt on celebrities would be out of business.
FalconShould there be a Law?
If its the recruiter that is lying to you remember one thing - they don't receive a dime until you accept. The point is this, make SURE everything is rock solid before you accept. If its the 11th hour and the job details are different then you either ask the company to change the details to what the recruiter they hired told you, or, you tell the recruiter to make up the difference. Until one of those things happen its a deal breaker.
You said there was a recruiter involved. They don't get paid if you don't take the job. They have some skin in the game, use that fact to your advantage.
Anyone who relocates for an employment-at-will job is not very smart. You need an employment contract for at least the length of time to make it worth it.
No way would I relocate without a one year contract. If they fire me or lay me off for any reason (other than cause) I would still want to get paid.
Without an employment contract, the parent comment is correct - they can fire you in five minutes.
Moral of the story - use a lawyer or get screwed.
Listen, do not listen to most of these people here who tell you that youa re going to be scrwed.
Often, big companies outsource relocation to some 'real estate' company. For a fixed amount. They expect that minus a certain commission if that's thecase, or fully if a separate fee is paid, most of the money would be paid to you in some form.
However, these companies try to live in the traditional american way - cheat and lie wearing a suit. They *will* inflate every bill presented to your employer, tell you that you would not be paid much, cook up ficticious commissions etc.
So talk to your HR first. You employer does not have to screw you now. They could have done this while offering your job and benefits. The relo company wants toscrew you now, and your employer is not going to be too happy if they hear about it. So, take the advise some guy gave, talk to the company HR - assuming that the bimbo has not been paid off by the relo company already. Try that and you would be surprised.
When I moved across state taking a job with a huge co with billions in revenue (they do not have to screw me for a few thousand dollars off my relo package), the relo company tried to collect a few thousand dollars in 'finders fee' to an apartment I searched and found myself paying the application fee myself and eventualy did not take up! I found this only when I saw the tax time statement of benefits, and ofcourse having a bit of time, alerted HR and the relo company. Ofcourse, far from being embarassed, the relo company just said it was among other thigns a'misunderstanding' and 'computer error' and paid my compnay back. I probably took someones holiday bonus away.
So, talk to your HR and company, they might not be all out to screw you.
I'd call one if I were you. Considering the company admitted to having conflicting offers/policies, there may be some recourse. Especially if you have the original offer in writing. I can't believe they can claim that a secondary offer, after you accepted the first, can be used.
It may be that they have a policy of the relocation department superseding an offer. However, that 'official' position may be open for discussion, especially if you know what rights / recourse you are entitled to.
Just wait until you find out what you can do in terms of recourse [by consulting an expert] before making any brash statements/rash decisions.
Who put this thing together? Me, that's who.
Promissary Estoppel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estoppel
Just take Homer Simpson's advice, come in every day and do your job really half-assed. After all, they might have it in writing that you'll come in 8 hours a day, but does it specify how much work you'll do there? Seems fair to me.
If you take a job on a verbal contract, either you'd better REALLY know the person you'd making the deal with, or have a recording of it, or you're nuts.
The problem, that least in the US, is that in order to record the conversation legally you have to have the permission of all the parties of the conversation, at least in most states. And it's doubtful that if they won't give you a written offer, they'll let you record the conversation. Then again if they don't give you a written offer or allow you to record the offer then more than likely it's not an employer you want to work with.
FalconShould there be a Law?
It actually sounds to me like a shady independent recruiter fed him a load and the reality was different. Independent recruiters will often lie to make a placement.
This type of problem is not at all uncommon in the corporate big bussiness world. Ideally all proper channels are in place to guarantee that everything various deparment and policies align with the common company goals. BUT, the world is not ideal, and large companies are not exception.
Lesson
Unless somebody has proven themselves trustworthy and competant, always assume that they are not. Assume that everybody you meet will screw you over by accident. Finally, ALWAYS get everything in writing and rubber stamped! If they refuse to provide that, its a red flag... screw 'em.
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who do not.
of one of my coworkers. He was moving to DC. THey had several mistatements in the document about the duration of the 'probation' period- some were 1 year, some were 2 years. For the same package. And no answers from them as to which one was the correct one.
Then there was the fees for the houses, and the clauses for required realtors (point shaving). Then the additional fees that were covered (mortage insurance thru special lenders) that were 50% above the going rate.
It's not as if having it in writing by the base company is something particular- it is probably farmed out to the cheapest group that's going to find every opportunity to tack on fees (sticking it to your new employer) and possibly (*worst case*) impacting your mortgage rates.
Good luck- I don't see alot of remedies in this situation EXCEPT to contact the original offer-er and ask him to have his super work something out with HR on this. If you're that good, they'll swing it. Otherwise negotiate for another week of paid vacation and consider it a learning experience.
Refuse the offer. Or at least pretend to. If they really wanted to hire you, they will, and will give you what they promised. If they won't, then they're a very misleading and deceitful company, and you don't want to be there anyway.
Not being without a job sucks, yes, which could be a constraint in your go forward; but I would say that you're probably in a stronger position than you imagine, if they hired you and were willing to relocate you at all. Call their bluff. The "our policy overrides any agreement" is total BS; talk to the person who made you the offer. In the worst case, and they don't follow through on their promise, then you're likely fairly marketable, if someone was willing to relocate you in the first place (and you had an existing job). You'll find something, don't get too worked up, but don't take their shit.
Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
I am not sure what 3v1L corporations you are working for, but I have never ever had such an experience. In fact, all of the companies I have dealt with were more then happy to modify small points to suit me. If a company is not willing to make such changes, especially when you are taking about a relocation package worth a few thousand dollars, that should be a big old clue mallet whacking you across the head.
Tell them that you need the agreed upon relocation package in writing. If they tell you that they won't do it, then you need to decide for yourself if you are willing to make the move without the relocation package. If you are not willing to make the move without the relocation package, don't be a dumb ass and sign anyways. Tell them that you can't move without a guaranteed relocation package, and if they still will not offer it up, then they clearly had no intention to give you one in the first place in which case you should look for another job. It is idiocy beyond words to join a corporation that is malevolently trying to swindle their employees out of a few thousand dollars before even stepping into work while management sits in a dark room cackling with laughter as they feast on baby flesh. Personally, I don't buy that such silliness exists in the US, but if you happen to run across it, don't be a complete dumb ass and just find something else.
Just follow two simple rules of accepting a job and you won't get burned.
1) If it is not in writing, it doesn't exist. If they promise you something, GET IT IN WRITING. Do not budge from this position. If there is something missing from your contract, make them add it. It is a quick and painless process to add stuff. If they refuse to add something in writing, assume that you are not going to get it and become deeply suspicious. Don't be a dumbass and work on promises. Don't be a dumbass and cave into pressure. The fact that they are pressuring you should send off a dozen warning bells that you are stupid to ignore.
2) Never, never, never, never, NEVER, EVER quit your current job until you have signed your name on the dotted line. Don't tell anyone you got a job until you have a signed contract that says you do. This not only gives you the ability to back out without becoming homeless, but means that you will not be screwed if they back out - AND IT DOES HAPPEN.
Moreover, what the hell is up with these kinds of posts I've seen lately?
"You should just expect companies to do anything at all to make more money. It was your fault for expecting ethical behavior, not their fault for [lying/stealing/polluting/killing foreigners]."
Yes, it sure as hell IS someone's fault if they behave unethically. Sometimes it is ALSO your fault for believing in them when you had good reason not to. Both can be true at the same time.
But regardless of anything else, it is absolutely that politician, CEO, stockbroker, etc.'s fault when they behave like an ass. Work on the problem from both ends by recognizing that they will sometimes act like the crooks they are, while at the same time holding their feet over the coals for their specific malfeasances.
I worked recruiting for a while back in the lste 80's. Could not deal with the deceit and misrepresentation. I am not at all surprised at your experience. If a recruiter's lips were moving, he was probably lying. If the job was worth a crap, the company would probably not need a recruiter.
other employers will come along.. they're a dime a dozen.
I was already an employee of Corporation X when I received a written internal relocation offer for an overseas assignment and accepted it. The offer gradually came apart; they withdrew pieces of it at a time. "Well, we can't actually do that part," or "no, other employees aren't getting that so we can't give it to you," etc.
I had already acted to my own detriment by giving notice in my apartment, selling furniture so it wouldn't need to be stored, and so on. So after making a last-ditch effort to salvage the relationship, I ended up having to resign from the company about two weeks before I was slated to move. In an attempt to recover my losses, I kept the portion of the money they had advanced (quite a bit of it had already gone into expenses, e.g. deposit and first month's rent on an apartment in the new location, travel expenses for the apartment-finding trip, etc.). I really had no choice at that point. They withdrew so much that I would have lost a significant sum of money -- and continued to bleed red ink for the months and years to come -- just by acquiescing and moving at that point.
What did I get for my efforts to play by their rules while they jerked me around? A lawsuit served by a top-tier national law firm, and scorched-earth litigation threats from their lead counsel (e.g., "we'll have to dig into all of your personal finances, and we'll tell any future employer that you took money from us unless you pay everything back right now"). I had to settle with them and go deeply into debt (not just to the corporation but to my attorney) just to escape from that toxic, nasty situation.
Is there a lesson here? I don't know. Just be very careful what you do. For what it's worth, I agree with the countless others who predict that it can only go downhill from here.
What if you were doing construction work on someone's house and they decided not to pay you even though you completed what was outlined in the contract?
Ah, remodelers have a terrific tool to use in cases like this, a construction lien. Either the contractor is paid, or the house can be put up for auction to satisfy the contract.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Save all your receipts. Anything your company ends up not paying for (and maybe even some of the things they do) are tax deductible if you're moving due to a job.
t e/yourplace/chi-0701180020jan18,0,7207865.story?co ll=chi-classifiedyourplace-hed
http://www.chicagotribune.com/classified/realesta
Tell them to take their job and shovel it.
Given that they cannot honor that agreement, it's clear that:
- Internal politics run amok
- They lack integrity
- It is unclear that your position won't change to include "phone grunt" or "gofer" responsibilities once you get there
The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
the gp meant "toot sweet".
It's execu-speak. I've seen it used in emails from business executive types who speak French. It's kind of a joke, although not an incredibly funny one.
First, the too-late advice: get everything in writing before accepting one job and resigning from another. Ask a lot of questions. Uprooting and relocating for a new job is no laughing matter, and you should make an effort to avoid unexpected surprises. This story reads as if the surprise was sprung before relocating, so it's far from a "nightmare" scenario, but it's still bad.
As in many situations in life, having a clear idea of how much bullshit you will accept is important. Whether it is a new job across the state or the other side of the planet, always know where your bullshit line is and be prepared to walk away if they cross it. Before you get on the plane, hope for the best but accept that you may have to eat thousands in travel and relocation costs in a worst-case scenario. Walking away will set you back, but if they're in a situation where they need to do long-distance hiring, then it is probably in their best interest to try and keep you around.
In employment there is little that is as bad as being shafted on a long-distance relocation. Be thankful if you discovered this discrepancy before going through the stress of relocation. Nasty surprises sometimes await until after relocating and starting the new job, and that's when it really gets into living through nightmare scenarios.
RTFM; please, I beg you.
FYI Some places are starting to email offer letters as PDF files.
The purpose of language is communication, If the idea is clear the grammar ain't important
Don't put up with that crap. When you get that vascillating prick on the phone and he spews superseding reprioritization of denatured pre-hire compensation, you can say, "Well, that is very interesting to know. Will you please communicate to the hiring manager that I can no longer accept the position because you, Mr. HR Monkey, saw fit to breach good faith and contradict the offer that the manager made and reduced the relocation package that I was relying upon in making the decision to sell my home and relocate to your state? Yes, please do go ahead and explain that to him. I'll let him know to expect your call. Good day."
Then you hang up, and shit gets fixed.
I have just turned down an offer from my current employer to relocate from the Northeast to the Deep South. Part of the reason was the problems a co-worker had relocating recently. The manager made an offer, then HR decided that it was not standard and would not honor the relocation package. The problem was the manager failed to inform HR. If the manager is willing to pay out of their budget, a lot of time HR will not care. First step is to contact the person who made you the offer and see if they can resolve the issue. While that is going on, start looking at your options if the recruiter can't get the HR folks to change.
THINK: My suggestion to you is that you think through all of your options, use a spreadsheet to keep track of the costs associated with each option.
EVALUATE: Try to get three options, not just take/don't take. Next decide what is important to you, e.g.
- is what the work at the new place more important than money?
- Will you be closer or further from family, and does that matter?
- etc.
Assign a weight to each of these criteria, for example a weight of 1 is very important and a weight of 3 is not important. On a piece of paper or in a spreadsheet make a grid with the options across the top and each criteria down the side. For each criteria pick the best, second best and worst option. Once done use, the weights to come up with a numerical score for each option. The best option will have the lowest score (best option of a criteria will be a 1, and with a weight of 1 it will score a 1. The worst will end up with a score of 9). This should be done in a couple of hours, since you have a short time frame.DECIDE: The above method will force you to think about the issue in a structured way. It will also give you a numeric answer as to which you think is the best solution. Think some more about it and decide if that is really what you want to do. Your heart may disagree with the evaluation, or the evaluation will confirm your previous feelings. In the end the evaluation is just a tool to help with the decision making. Reflect on the evaluation and then decide.
ACT: Once you have decided on an option act upon it. Call the hiring and let them know your decision, and your current employer if you have already given notice and need to ask for your position back. Above all, don't be mean to anyone, you never know if you are going to see them and need their help in the future. Don't email angry!
Above all be true to yourself, you can always get another job. Good Luck.
This has happened before and rather than keep the situation from happening again - which any prudent company would do - they've come up with a policy that is essentially "Because I said so" and expect you to take it.
Any you're thinking of relocating for this company?
You could not have asked for a better warning sign.
Bail. Bail. Bail.
Pah, another amateur lawyer. Legally, firing somebody is not that simple. Yeah, technically you can fire folks for any number of reasons. In the real business world, firing people is not something you do if you can avoid it. For one thing, it's is expensive, because you need to document that you did everything correctly. If you don't document a termination carefully, you could end up getting in legal trouble for what someone claims you did, and have no proof that you acted correctly.
(I'm actually speaking from personal experience, and no, I'm not going to share the details.)
The fact is, this dude's problem is not "bait and switch". That's when somebody knowingly makes a substitution. No sane manager is going to start a new hire out by screwing him: it's formula for disaster. What obviously happened was the manager making promises that the HR department doesn't feel bound to honor. The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing — not an uncommon thing in large organizations.
Confrontation is a lose-lose here. If the potential employee goes in thinking, "They're out to screw me!" it's going to be a self-fulfilling prophecy: either he'll walk away from a job he disrupted his life to take, or he'll start a new job totally pissed off at the people he works for (not a formula for professional success!). For their part, the company has invested a lot of effort into hiring this guy, and made business plans on the assumption he was going to start work. They have a vested interest in making him happy, even if they show the usual bureaucratic stupidity in fulfilling their own interests.
So forget about who's the good guy and who's the bad guy. The dude needs to express his disappointment, respectfully but firmly, to both the HR bureaucrats and the manager that made him the negated offer. Everybody here has motivation to work out a comprimise; nobody should waste time being self-righteous.
here in aus there's a lot of companys that will relocate workers all expenses paid, mostly due to the resources boom. i wouldn't work for a company like that imagine what'd be like once they have you by the balls.
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
You have one big bit of leverage at your disposal here: you. You obviously have some skill set they want, and, most likely, not too many people have it (I'm guessing they weren't paying for your relocation so you could flip burgers). They wanted it bad enough to pay you a salary and pay some significant amount in relocation expenses. They'll probably want it bad enough to pay that plus a bit more. Even if this is a contract, and you're now stuck with each other if that's really how they want it, do they really think they'll get your best work as things stand? Or that you'd be interest in renewing a contract with a company like that? Too many people view employment as a one way deal. Employers need you just as much you need them.
This is also done with drunks and Cheese Steaks. The guy up front says your getting beef, but the policy in the back is if "what they have" and "what you ordered" conflicts you get what they have.
Perhaps they do that at the Baby Gap.
The scenario described abobe is unlikely to occur. Companies rarely rescind written job offers, and never haggle individual terms after they are accepted. In any case, processing the paperwork and getting them set up is a front loaded cost. The company would be an idiot to hire someone and fire them after 5 minutes.
The reason they do not do this, and you should be glad if they do, is that it would be like hitting the lottery for the employee. You could then get another job, and sue for wrongful termination. Two years later you settle for two years salary. Take a vacation.
any advice on how to respond to it?
Simple. Tell them to go to hell and and stay at your old job.
Do you really think a company that starts out by cheating you is going to get any better?
I just had an excellent offer. So good I had this 'wow cool new job' glow along with a math and critical thinking dysfunction.
:)
I announced it in my blog and got some pretty good advice. Then I talked to someone that systematically and with great glee hacked my math affliction to shreads with such glowing things as COL, taxes, relocation, benefits, etc etc etc. By the time they were done flaying me with their experience, knowledge and math prowess I was IN THE HOLE 3k for the first year. I also got some other information on the assignment, it's a high pressure sweat shop with extremely high turnover.
I'm fortunate that I hadn't run skipping off to wonderland. I did get the paperwork and it's a contractor for a contractor for the government. The base rate is LESS than I now make but they pad the fee by calling it 'per diem'. Since the job lives or dies on the government contract it's mostly a fancy temp job.
I let the recruiter stew for a day and then talked to them and managed to get more money offered but at that point I wasn't even interested in baiting them further. He pretty much cut me off and said 'thanksforyourtime' and hung up.
I'd go on a Vegan diet but the delivery time from Vega is too long. --brownkitty
Tough to say what the best move is without a bit more information. For example, is the recruiter internal or external? Was the original offer in writing and signed by a party designed to represent the company in such matters?
Regardless, one important observation applies across the board. First, provide a copy of the original terms to both the recruiter and HR on the same email, and state plainly and respectfully that an error was made and that you would like the original terms followed through. You'll have one of two things happen next. If you get a "sure, we'll get back to you" and no discernable resolution, do not move. Delay your start date until the issue is resolved and WHATEVER YOU DO, DO NOT BEGIN WORK UNTIL THE ISSUE IS RESOLVED.
Now, if you have moved and such, as I understand it you do have options even if you do begin work under the legal doctrine of "promissory estoppel". What this means is you can file suit based on evidence that you relied on a promise, implying an oral contract was in place. It's a tricky sell though. If you want more info on this, google Ricketts v Scotthorn, which is a case that made it up to the Nebraska supreme court as a starting point.
Obligatory disclaimer: IANAL and the above is not intended as legal advice, always seek counsel from an attorney. Santa Claus isn't real. Neither is the easter bunny.
Ok, at some point in the near future, you're going to decide whether or not to take the offer they switched to. If you tell them to take a hike, I hope you will post a follow-up and let us know the name of the company that pulled this stunt. And on that note...
Several years ago, I was contacted by a company that wanted to interview me in the Washington DC area, and I was assured by the HR drone that they'd pay my travel expenses to come out and talk to them. So, I go to the interview (which was pointless; the hiring manager I was supposed to meet with was off on a trip somewhere, so I spoke with two other people who had no interest at all in whether I joined this other guy's team or not).
After the interview, I sent the company an invoice for my travel expenses. I heard nada from them for about three weeks. I then called up the HR drone to ask about my reimbursement, and got her voice mail. I called again the next week, and then recieved a check in the mail for exactly half of the amount they owed me. (I later learned from friends who had worked there that they had a deliberate policy of never paying any bill until they were threatened, and then sending half to see if the creditor would just go away.)
Upon recieving the check for half of my expenses, I called the HR drone again, and left a message stating that unless I was paid in full, immediately, they would find it exceedingly difficult to get any NeXTSTEP developer to come to any interview with them, as the community was quite small and we pretty much all knew each other. One post to comp.sys.next.developer would have done it.
I recieved a check for the remainder of my expenses the following day by federal express.
That company was SHL Systemhouse, which I believe was acquired/merged into MCI a few years later.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Yes, screwing over employees and customers is the de facto standard of Corporate America.
I'm sure you are already aware of your options, and are only asking because you are hoping for a fairy-tale ending that can be spelled out on /. I don't have any non-obvious answers, but here are the obvious ones:
... would most likely lie cynically to its customers, suppliers, and partners - and possibly the government as well.
Now, you can look at that in one of two ways.
1. That's what corporations do; I have to work for one of them, so I must make the best of things as they are.
2. There are decent companies out there, and I will try to get a job with one of them.
I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
Yeah, this is a crappy situation... The law is completely different in the UK for people who work with computers than for everyone else. IR35 only applies to IT contractors.
I know a couple of plumbers working on large contracts. These people are in exactly the same position as I am - they run their own business, manage their own books, handle sales and getting the next job, etc. The only difference is that if they work on a contract for 2 years, that's just normal. If I choose to, I get nailed on taxes and what I can claim as a company benefit.
Well
I ask to take any offer home to check it during the weekend.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
You can still use common sense in many situations without requiring a lawyer and can ask other people what their experiences have been in similar situation.
The love for lawyers in the US is reaching epidemic proportions.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Step 0: Call the recruiter and tell him that what HR is offering isn't what you were promised. If the recruiter has any morals at all, he'll get in touch with HR and find out what jackass stopped his hire and why. He may be able to work up the chain faster than you can simply because he already has a working relationship with the company.
And there are pretty awful ones. The ones that start screwing you from the day 1.
Run!
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
Maybe you lost millions in the .com bust?
I didn't. I never made millions. I have always taken my work seriously. I never took 4 hour lunches, I never got massages at work. But I'm always, always been on the level with a company that wants to hire me.
Yes, companies DO need you. If they didn't, why hire anyone? It's still hard to find actual GOOD IT workers in this market saturated with very mediocre ones. If you're actually talented (maybe you're not, and that's why you're so pissed at the world) then you'll show that at an interview, and the company will want you. If they're not willing to write down your offer, you don't sign with them. ESPECIALLY IF YOU HAVE A JOB ALREADY, which is what this AskSlashdot poster had.
Finding a good job is a shitty job. No doubt about it. In 2001 I lost my job and I didn't find another decent one until 2003. It sucked. I understand how hard it is, even if you're good, when the market is bad. But, right now it's not. And, since I never took advantage - never took the 4 hour lunches - nothing has really changed for me.
ps. I work for the government now. No matter what tax cuts or spending cuts get made, I'll still have a job.
- It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -
I've taken a look through your journal - not all the way back, but the last week or so. In doing so, I stumbled across [what I assumed to be] your resume.
I don't know the circumstances that led to your present situation. As someone who managed to avoid losing my home [and would have included losing my family], I am curious about why you are currently unable to find *any* job?
Your resume suggests that you've held a wide variety of positions - some in research, some in construction, etc. You appear to have an above average vocabulary, and some aspects of your posts hint at a sense of humour. You seem to be tenacious in a debate [like this thread], and might prove useful in something involving vendor relationships.
Is it possible that, in an interview, you come across as cynical or fatalistic? Or perhaps overbearing or maybe victimized? I know hiring managers that view these types of attitudes as "deal breakers" during interviews.
This past weekend as I was walking through Calgary (my home town up here in Canada), I was amazed at the number of help wanted signs. 4 out of 5 shops appeared to be seeking help of one variety or another. I have heard of people with criminal records that have had the luxury of choosing between jobs [granted, these aren't office jobs, but they do pay a reasonable wage]. While I'm sure that La Jolla is a beautiful city, perhaps you'd have much more success in a different location?
It doesn't make sense to me...
I was born, raised, and have lived in the USA for more than 40 years. Other than Canada the only other countries I have been in are Panama and Germany. While I was in the Army, my unit went to Panama for three weeks for training, then I was transfered to Germany.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Yes, Dorthy corporations lie. As a matter of fact, they do so as a matter of business. Welcome to the real world of Dilbert. And if your caught in the machinery, a little grease is good for the machinery. Enjoy your minimum wage slave and be happy that the big boss doesn't come down and say, "Make him feel as if he were working."
You must be new here (on Slashdot)... ;-)
You may be joking, however without visual or audio cues, ie irl, I frequently can't tell when a person is straight forward or is joking. As for how long I've been here on /. I've been a member for several years.
FalconShould there be a Law?