Slashdot Mirror
Microsoft Sinks Teeth Into New Orleans
An anonymous reader writes: "The New Orleans Times-Picayune is reporting that Mayor Nagin is considering letting Microsoft upgrade the city's computers free of charge. The catch? New Orleans eventually has to buy the software and Microsoft gets to use the city as a marketing model to push this on the rest of the country." According to the article, a similar system Microsoft developed for Oklahoma "is expected to expand into accident reporting, video arraignment and automated pawn-shop-ticket tracking." So don't worry about privacy -- it's all taken care of. Open bidding's taken care of too: "Because these services are considered a gift, the city won't have to publicly bid the project." Sounds like dirty pool to me.
Consider these handcuffs a gift from Microsoft.
Go ahead. Try them on. Fits real nice, huh?
You will, of course, have to pay for them later.
-----
The angel in the oatmeal.
For corruption, gluttony, and other vices?
eventually has to buy the software... nice...
\m/
Embrace and extinguish, only this time with government....
Hey, this is my sig, if you don't like it, STOP READING MY POSTS!
we propose to the city to give them a linux installation. Free of charge, of course.
Fleur de Sel
Does the entire city now have to read and agree to microsoft's EULA?
.noitacidem deen uoy siht daer nac uoy fI
Classic Microsoft marketing. Hook 'em first, then they're yours for life.
They're offering them a good deal, they're not suing them. For the non-initiated, it's called business.
>>Open bidding's taken care of too: "Because
>>these services are considered a gift, the city
>>won't have to publicly bid the project."
This won't last long under public scrutiny.
-------
Coming soon! Microsoft Bob II !!!
10 MD
Regardless of what we say about them, their marketing department is effective. With out that, we would not be discussing them today..
---- Booth was a patriot ----
And that surprises anyone how?
The IT staff for these towns should get together and offer to upgrade the entire system to Linux or *BSD for free. Since the OS would already be free and the city is already paying the IT workers to work there is no cost at all. But if dune the M$ way NO will have to pay M$ for everything in the long run.
"Really, I'm not out to destroy Microsoft. That will just be a completely unintentional side effect." Linus Torvalds
More power to them if it works out!
Just imagine the PR hit if it fails or bites them in the ass somehow.
The terms of the deal are probably pretty restrictive, and the city gov is probably locking themselves into something they know nothing about.
But I don't live there so I could care less.
Who run Barter Town?
Microsoft is a business. They are smart at attempting to acheive Vendor lockin with their customers. This is easy once in the door, they can then be a cheaper solution to new problems the organization (customer) faces. Microsoft is not the only organization to operate this way...most of them do.
From the Article:
New Orleans police will be using a system Microsoft developed for the state of Oklahoma. Dubbed the Offender Data Information System, the system can link dozens of law enforcement agencies, jails and court systems.
From the Blues Brothers:
Elwood:"I bet these cops got SCMODS."
Jake:"SCMODS?"
Elwood:"State, County, Municiple Offender Data System."
Jake:"Shit!"
You have to credit Microsoft with one thing... They sure know how to run a business...
100% Insightful
It shuts out network OS competition, and it shuts out hundreds of companies that develop applications for cities and governments.
A lot of cities and their respective police departments have a "no gift" policy. In other words, an officer or government official cannot accept a gift - as it could be seen as a bribe.
No. Wait. It *is* a bribe.
"Here, take this software for free so you will be stuck in my neverending upgrade cycle. You'll have to pay me later, then pay me again when you go to upgrade."
Something stinks here..
= Grow a brain...
...why I said forcing government to use only open source software was a good thing....
Pay Microsoft later? Oh, they'll pay later all right. Plus interest!
"Like fire and fusion, government is a dangerous servant and a terrible master."~RAH
crash all computers in the city and see what will happened.
Everyone here is smarter than the politicians in New Orleans.
Hmmmmm.
That sounds about right.
-- You see, there would be these conclusions that you could jump to
Here in Peru, the response from M$ to the Open Source proposal was not only the easily rebutted FUD letter. There was also a 'donation' of computers and software to the schools. All free, of course... for 5 years. after that, we'll have to pay for the priviledge of being locked-in with the propietary formats.
And the same line: "Since it's a donation, there was no public bidding", and it will make impossible to apply the OpenSource law (if it would be approved).
How can we escape? having no money is no longer a defense from being robbed
-Kz-
And what should we call this combination? Perhaps "The Big Sleazy"?
According to the Slashdot story... "New Orleans eventually has to buy the software..."
Yet, the article says... Eventually, he added, the city will have to purchase software from the company...
The article would suggest that future software will not be free. Not that the current software will, in the future, have to be purchased. A minor detail perhaps, but it does explain why the software is a gift.
It would be like a gun maker giving pistols to a police department a substantial savings, but making them purchase their own magazines, springs, etc.
I personally don't see a problem with what Microsoft is doing.
If there's a contract involved.
Microsoft is stipulating that they buy in the future, according to the article. There's an obvious transfer of value between parties.
If I were in the position to bid in one of those cities, believe me, I would sue.
Based on upvotes, Ageism is the only "-ism" Slashdotters care about and think isn't SJW
How can it be a "gift" if it must be purchased? Is Arthur Anderson involved in the deal somehow?
Napster-to-go says "Fill and refill your compatible MP3 player", which is a lie. It's not MP3. It's WMA with DRM.
If they're indeed trying to get around the open bidding requirement (I assume such exists), then it's called dirty business.
Belief is the currency of delusion.
According to the article, a similar Microsoft developed for Oklahoma "is expected to expand into accident reporting, video arraignment and automated pawn-shop-ticket tracking."
What is this poor grammar trying to convey? They made a Microsoft Corporation just for us Sooners?
"Eventually, he added, the city will have to purchase software from the company, but he said it would be a "minuscule" expense."
It doesn't say they will have to purchase THE software from Microsoft, only that they will have to eventually buy software from Microsoft. Granted, it isn't very specific, but get your shit straight.
The New Orleans Police Department uses a system that holds 1 million records and is in imminent danger of meltdown, city officials said. Backup copies of most records exist on paper, but a crash could erase key data.
So if you have a long ass rap sheet for shit like murder and arson, you can just roll up the the police station and burn the muthafucka down. Shit, if you're an arsonist, that should be your specialty. The catch, if you get caught, you're fucked. If you don't, you're a free man, with no police record. Who's gonna do it for the greater good of their fellow criminals.
Of all the places, I never thought that world domination would begin with New Orleans
"Oh no, 3 horny women and only 2 condoms...Thank god I read slashdot"
New Orleans News
City may get free Microsoft makeover
Typo: the "m" is makeover should read "t".
We appologize for the error.
-
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
Fantastic! Now someone just needs to write free drop in replacements for the pieces MS is providing. MS can spend their resources on requirement analysis and setup, and when it is time to collect revenue, discover that they have been replaced. Maybe a large company with an interest in denying MS income would be willing to sponsor such a project.
From the article, refering to the new Offender Data Information System, "It gives them a lot more weapons in fighting crime," Meffert said. The reality? "We can not wield it! None of us can!"
A steaming cup of soykaf would be real wiz right now.
I dont think a team of geeks are going to come into Nawlins' and upgrade all systems with freash copies of debian in hand. Thank God microsoft is bailing us out here...govenment5.0.
Geeks get off your ass and make proposels to the govenment if you want change.
New Orleans is known for booze, sex and debauchery.
:)
You think they would have chosen BSD.
.
Have you read the moderator guidelines? Well, have you, PUNK? (and I want a Karma: Gnarly option)
Bitching about Microsoft and privacy, but we would be in this position if it were oracle, open source, etc.
My point is that Microsoft has issues, but they cannot be as evil as the Slashdot community makes them out to be.
Privacy is an issue that's OS agnostic.
Tim O'Reilly said that if we try to force government to use open source Microsoft would do the same. Now you see, they are trying to force their software now, and we don't have a law yet. Here in my state in brazil, you have to give Open Source preference, so here and I think in Germany people are not concearned with this kind of shit. Well but you americans still sentence people to death...
I have no sig and I want to scream
Since the Feds (CIA, FBi, NSA ...) own Microsoft and the bugs that ride in with them, consider this not a gift to the Big Easy, but a public works project.
Let's see, science/technology, libertarianism, and "information wants to be free". 3rd!
"Meffert met again several days later with Microsoft executives at the company's sales and marketing conference in New Orleans to discuss the prospect of jointly developing and marketing software for other cities and municipalities."
Looks like the city plans to make some moeny from all this.
From the summary:
Open bidding's taken care of too: "Because these services are considered a gift, the city won't have to publicly bid the project."
I was under the impression that government agencies had fairly strict rules regarding the acceptance of gifts from companies that they do business with or plan on doing business. Perhaps the fact that it's a "gift" takes care of the open bidding requirement, but I think it's still violates the law. Does anyone have more information?
The first shot is free, but that is just to get you hooked on it. Once you're hooked, prices go through the roof and they will take everything you have.
--- Hindsight is 20/20, but walking backwards is not the answer.
Is microsoft going to "give" them software And hardware, or just a bunch of software?
::calls new outlets::"
"Upgrading Systems" isnt a very clear term.
IF they are giving them a bunch of hardware And software, hey no problem, let them spend the $$, and they can just say to microsoft in X years, "Oh sorry, we actually broke bid laws since we Do end up paying you, so, we cant pay you. Oh, and those systems are critical to our police doing their job, you cant have them back. What, you would cripple an entire city's ability to fight crime?!
If its just software, then , well, Is there even anything Like this being done in the *nix world ?
from the article : "New Orleans police will be using a system Microsoft developed for the state of Oklahoma. Dubbed the Offender Data Information System, the system can link dozens of law enforcement agencies, jails and court systems. A virtual crime-fighting tool, the system also provides officers with online mug shots of suspects, warrants and other data. In Oklahoma, the system is expected to expand into accident reporting, video arraignment and automated pawn-shop-ticket tracking. "
Isn't Microsoft cutting it a bit close? A penny more and they'd be overcharging.
Game... blouses.
Basically, Nagin got elected on a platform of cleaning up the corruption and he'd sign a contract with the Devil himself to get rid of the current scumbags. Wait, he actually did just do that. Well, I for one can't blame him under the circumstances.
Brackets contain world's first nanosig, highly magnified:[.]
Gee, if they used Linux, it would be free FOREVER.
Someone should explain the difference to the mayor.
Sdelat' Ameriku velikoy Snova!
But consider this: With news security holes being discovered every day, a man could get arrest, released and with the proper contacts, have his record expunged the next day. It is a glorious time for New Orleans organized crime now that they have a government they can work with: a governemnt using MS products.
Dawn of the Dead
first one's free...
Cake or Death? Cake Please!
Wait'll you see the bill!
Dawn of the Dead
New Orleans wants to be a sacrificial lamb.
They can take Microsoft down a notch when they crash.
How many people are going to mourn either of the co-victims? Not many, I'll wager.
As this makes clear, the idea that Open Source supporters are wrong to demand that governments justify failures to use Open Source is moronic. Microsoft will stop at nothing to sell its overpriced, underpowered, insecure software and lock in its proprietary infrastructure. The Open Source movement will be lucky to slow it down.
something you eventually have to buy be a gift? Sounds to me more like a loan!
Comment removed based on user account deletion
What are the legal implications of software licensing for software that is a gift ? If the software is normally sold and you give it as a gift does that affect your license ?
"player 4 hit player 1 with 0 stroms"
"The systems that we are using right now . . . Elvis was still alive and singing when they were made," he said. So Elvis sang while the computers were being made... I guess this makes their strange decision a bit clearer. Someone needs to tell the mayor Mardi Gras is over and he can stop drinking.
There is no gift here...This is a bribe... If this were a gift, there would be no other obligation. In other words no future payments required.
DRM? No thanks, I'll just get it somewhere else...
Comment removed based on user account deletion
My question is if they want to prevent a crash, why are they looking into Windows?
What color would you like your blue screen today?
Don't ping my cheese with your bandwidth!
The Mayor of New Orleans is an asshole. This is the same guy that spends MILLIONS of dollars to recruit an NBA team (Charlotte Hornets) and build an arena for them, while at the same time schools across the city are in shambles. For christs' sake, there aren't enough books to go around in classrooms! This guy is being RUN by corporate interests. How gullible can one be?
Not Oklahoma, Micky$oft you stay the hell out of my state...
Microsoft know all of this and will do whatever it takes to keep their grip in the government. Expect more "donations", cost cuts, etc. They will not just sit there and see how their empire falls down ...
Get the razor almost free and then buy razorblades at a high price.
We will be seeing alot more like this in the future. I think Microsoft gladly loose money if they can keep linux off government and cities.
HTTP/1.1 400
New Orleans gov't has always been filled with corruption so Microsoft will find it quite easy to work a deal that's bad for the city in the long run yet good for the politicians who are currently in office. Its one of the main reasons that I had to leave the city to start off - that and the fact that there exist NO IT market within the city at all. Somewhat difficult to have intelligent computer people lobby against free software when they've moved to other cities to find jobs. But such is the way of things.
One must wonder just what the Mayor would say to a free gift of Redhat with NO contract to buy in the future? Someone living in New Orleans may want to offer such a gift.
"Your superior intellect is no match for our puny weapons!"
Comment removed based on user account deletion
That spent millions of public funds to lure the Charlotte Hornets into their city while schools are in shambles. Yeah, you got it.
It's surprising that Microsoft is bothering with Government applications. The margins aren't that big. That field has usually been addressed by companies that did mostly Government work, like EDS, Unisys, and the government business unit of IBM. This may reflect a major strategy change for Microsoft, moving towards owning the customer in the classic IBM way, with lots of Microsoft people onsite at the customer location.
Why do our kids have to deal with a non standard computing system in our schools? Because at one time Apple gave them to them, pay later, yes.
To be honest, can you really blame New Orleans? They obviously have found that they really need to replace their antiquated system. At the same time, Microsoft offered to develop software and make sure it works for free for now. Yes, New Orleans might have to give money to Microsoft in the future, but given budgetary constraints, efficient use of taxpayer money and other concerns, it is probably a good deal for New Orleans. You have to realize that the politicians need to get something done in this current term of office.... money that must be spent two or three terms from now is not important.
The article claimed that the city's CTO will make N.O. a "city of the future". This is clearly ironic since N'awlins has no future at all. Louisiana's protective coastline around New Orleans loses 35 square miles every year from constraining the Mississippi River from dropping a silt load over the entire delta. When the next hurricane actually hits the Big Easy -- the last couple have come close -- the storm swell will top the levees, will utterly drown the city, will kill tens of thousands of people (as projected), and $50 billion will disappear from the US economy from the catastrophe.
So, who cares what OS is running on those servers? Run Windows XT and Oracle DB using excess licenses from California. They'll be under water anyways, and everybody can write off the loss of software that was useless to begin with. On that note, right now the Louisiana state government should be swapping out servers in New Orleans, putting their older, crappy hardware in place for the write-off. W00t!
[also misbehaves on Kuro5hin as Peahippo]
Some points:
1. A sneaky deal? Sounds like it, but Microsoft does represent computers to the 99.99 percent of the population that doesn't read Slashdot.
2. Sneaky deals and monopolism aside, the simple fact that Microsoft is a corportation allows them to speak with one voice and make a coherent proposal that has a real chance of being implemented.
3. So...how could the free software/open sourcee world do the same thing? How could a similar wall-to-wall open source solution be offered to New Orleans? Does such an institution exist, or is the notion antithetical to the community?
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
My attempt:
I found your article "City may get free Microsoft makeover" amusing, in a sad sort of way. Your omissions seemed to speak more than your words.
There was not one word of the irony of the city working out a deal with a convicted, unrepentant monopolist corporation in upgrading the city's police department. Surely that should have been mentioned.
Nor was there any real data on what the "minuscule" software upgrade costs would be in the future. Instead, you just used the "minuscule" quote and presented it as a fact. Anyone who has dealt with Microsoft's licensing on any significant scale knows these upgrade costs are wildly excessive and over a short time are far more expensive than the software's initial license fees.
The entire aspect of this being a "gift" was not questioned. Nor was the fact that public data will be locked up in secret, proprietary file formats that only Microsoft knows. The fact that this "gift" will lock the city into Microsoft software and make any future migration away from Microsoft software very expensive was never mentioned.
And moreover, there was not one word about Microsoft's legendary security problems and whether the officials involved had even considered these problems when linking together many different government agencies which contain huge amounts of personal/private data.
To me, the article was simply "feel good" cheerleading; this is hardly the role the public expects the media to play. Your article wasn't objective nor did it try to do even a minimal amount of investigation. Shame on you.
Every company does that, discounts, free upgrades and so on. What is wrong with that.
Some????
Try all their software from microsoft.
front end
back end
everything
Sorry to those that think W2K isn't stable, but I've yet to have W2K BSOD or hard lock on me yet. W2K is many times better than NT 4, and NT 4 SP6a ran very very well for me. Choosing the right hardware and drivers is key. Any competent Sys Admin should be able to keep his boxes running smooth within reason. I am the Sys Admin in a mixed environment comprised of Windows 95, 98, NT 4, 2K, Macintosh, NetWare, AS/400 and Linux. The business I work for demands near-24/7/365 availability. I deliver that. If I could just get Win9x and the Macs outta here, things would be better.
Sure I use Linux in my spare time at home, but in business, Windows just dominates for general workstation and server usage. Many slashdot readers need to grow up and realize how businesses work. The goal of business is to make a profit, and preferably make a profit that matches or exceeds what is budgeted.
This is Microsoft's way to show people how an effective use of their products is going to help the city. Believe it not folks, MS wants to make money, they are a business.
Big computer companies have been using this tactic for decades.
.
You want to enter a marketplace? First problem is you haven't got a reference site so noone will take you seriously.
So you buy yourself a reference site and shower them with goodies to make sure the software, hardware and services all hang together. Now you can go to other related businesses with a credible offer.
For this to work, the vendor has to have deep enough pockets to make the showcase site a success, and time enough to do the job properly. Secondly the marketplace has to be broad enough to replicate the showcase to a goodly number of real paying customers.
Nothing wrong here, quite the reverse, it's good business to invest time and effort on satisfying customer demand.
This sort of strategy is popular in the public sector, with regional governments and the like. They all have broadly similar requirements, and are strapped for cash, so that someone will likely be prepared to take the risk of being the trial site. I have also seen it work in smaller banks, the ones who can't really afford to develop new solutions in house.
The upside for the vendor is that you get a pretty much captive market: the customer can't usually afford to pay for any alternative system. This means that you can sell them related services at a premium rate year after year.
The downside is that the margins are hit initially, after all you had to buy the business. Further, if the target marketplace is not actually as homogeneous as you thought, then there can be expensive customisation required for new clients. They won't take the offering just as a package so the perceived risk and cost goes up, meaning that your expensive reference site is not quite so compelling.
The downside for the customer comes when the vendor's pockets aren't so deep, and they are in a hurry for profit.
There are quite a few spins on this strategy, the worst of which is "break the customer's leg and then sell them a splint". In other words, you get 6 months into the project before revealing that there are significant "special" problems that can be blamed on the customer. These "problems" are outside the scope of the original agreement and the customer has to write some cheques to cover it. 6 months later, new unexpected problems crop up . . .
Well MS has the deep pockets for this kind of work, but they are in a hurry. Tough call to decide whether it's good business or not.
the "marketing model to push this on the rest of the country" part of the contract has kicked in, you mean?
/. then.
Bet New Orleans gets burned on this deal sometime in the next 5 years;) see ya back at
Sdelat' Ameriku velikoy Snova!
I would definitely consider letting Microsoft upgrade MY software for free...
The three largest industries for Louisiana are tourism, oil, and graft, and not in that order. A few years ago there was one murder per day in New Orleans; in the French Quarter they put up a sign with cardboard cutouts on hooks for numbers. It stopped when they found out that a couple of local police had been going into convenience stores, killing everyone, and taking the cash.
...and 5 minutes after the traffic control systems are "upgraded" by Microsoft, a BSoD graces the monitor and every traffic light in the city turns green.
All I want is a kind word, a warm bed and unlimited power.
I truly don't have a problem with Microsoft should supply New Orleans with software. On the other hand I don't like the way it's done this time, at all.
Microsoft is here trapping New Orleans in a slick way and the mayor of New Orleans is obviously terribly short sighted and porly informed. The problem in any government, county, municipial etc. is that technical decitions are made by politicians or poorly educated/bribed advisors and not by well educated consultans with a broad software experience.
Look a monkey!
I know why I despise christians. They keep moralizing and thumping their bibles crying "thou shalt not kill", but man, when they really want to kill someone, they have the PR.
What the hell? Who brought religion into this? You have serious bigotry issues. Oh wait, I forgot... you're a compassionate soul. Well, compassionate for criminals, at least.
I send you this free software in order to have your advice.
"The carrot for them is that they can work with an actual city to develop this system," Meffert said. "They were extremely excited."
Does that mean there is a stick?
Probably they'll get more from support and upgrades. They're killing three rabbits (the comptetitors, model to showoff and one less city using non-microsoft products) with one bullet.
If this was Redhat doing this it would be praised.
...to pick the leat corrupt city in the whole of the US as their starting point.
-- SIGFPE
There is no such thing as a "Sys Admin" for Windows. If you work with Windows you have no business calling yourself a Systems Administrator.
So many inept comments.
I live in New Orleans, and the reason for such an offer is simply one man: Greg Meffert.
He has been appointed Mayor Ray Nagin's CTO.
No one else in City Hall really does technology, so the idea that it's "stupid politicians" is ridiculous.
Meffert is respnsible for getting City Hall online, really, with online business forms, taxes, etc. People don't like change here, and there is great resentment, believe it or not.
But there is again no one else really in place at City Hall to make a choice for open source. Meffert also headed the largest software company in New Orleans, so there's noone else to really tell him or Nagin how to do things.
The Open Source solution looks bleak.
However, if anyone is truely concerned, one can send a well written propsal here.
Funny, knowing the inside story and seeing the comments under this post, I can only wonder how others feel when they know the story, and there streams in comment after comment of same-a-thon logic and peer modeling.
Anyway, send in a request! Get New Orleans to Linux! I can only do so much!
Thanks.
I'm shocked, shocked.
Sure, they're picking up a software package for free, initially. And as stated, it is a software package, not an OS upgrade or hardware. And as much as I support the OpenSource advocates, as far as I'm aware, there are no criminal information tracking systems on Sourceforge at the moment.
But as with all Microsoft products, they're definately not a once-buy solution. Will the city be paying for upgrades, support, disaster recovery? With Microsofts current licensing movements, they'll probably be paying a yearly leasing fee in a couple of years.
But thats the point, a couple of years. How long do political administrations usually last? The majority of the people involved in the decision will probably be consulting for large companies in a couple of years.
You idiot, it is the doing of a "well educated consultant with a broad software experience".
Study up before you write, sheep.
Software choice, free computers, donation to Peru, etc.. now we can forget all the bad things M$ has ever done, they sure have turned good, or have they?
In the 80's I remember stories where Microsoft sent a teenager into a computer store complaining that he has lost his mouse driver. A goodwilled sales clerk of course took a copy of the drivers from one of their DOS packages. Few hours later M$ lawyer was at the door..
Maybe the younger generation will see only the good deeds Microsoft has done.
I anyway won't ever trust M$..
My mother always said "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is." In this case, they should listen to my mother. A deal that says "It's all free now, but you'll have to pay down the road" doesn't sound reasonable to me. I really hope that they look at the long-term effects of this decision, and look at all of the options. This reminds me of all of those commercials that say "No money down until 2003". What happens when I/we start having to pay?
Now M$ gets to have a base of operation where the officials are officially corrupt (I know an ex-Nor'leans cop,) and where chyrrosis of the liver is death by natural causes.
They can stop worrying about those pesky revenuers now.
You buy "Boudreau" or "Thibodeau", real cheap, and they stays bought as long as you can pay. I ga-ron-tee eet.
Think of it as "SeaLand" [http://www.sealandgov.com/] without the kiddie-porn restrictions.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
Look here.
Learn to read and write English you fucking moron!
Quote from the story:
"a similar Microsoft developed for Oklahoma..."
Wasn't a single Microsoft enough?? They are now developing another one????
^_^
"Microsoft Sinks Teeth Into New Orleans"
with a counter headline being something like
"Linux wins over hearts and souls of Germany"
Its just business, leave the emotions at the door if you want to perform your best. Microsoft did in 1981 and if linux wants a bigger market they will too.
Small dick, stupid post.
This whole thing reminds me of a rather parallel situation that goes on all the time in the musical instrument sales business.
A small manufacturer develops a great new product, and starts working on building a customer-base for it.
Along comes a music "superstore" such as Guitar Center or Mars. They woo the manufacturer, saying "Hey, we absolutely *love* your new product and want to carry it in all of our stores. We'll make you a really sweet deal, paying you X amount each with a guarantee that we'll buy at least 40,000 units up-front, and thousands per month after that!"
Of course, the little manufacturer thinks "Wow, how can I go wrong? This is the break I was looking for!" They proceed to spend large amounts of investment money to ramp up production to meet the needs of the music superstore and everything looks great.
That is - until the contract comes up for renewal. Then the story changes. "Hey pal, we're not really making much money off this product of yours. If you don't start selling them to us for under price Y, we'll just quit carrying it and go with a competitor." All of a sudden, the small manufacturer realizes he's stuck in a permanent marriage with the music superstore, and pretty much on *their* terms.
He didn't spend millions, the team was already a done deal when he got into office.
Further, you can't fix schools in 100 days.
the citizens of New Orleans will also receive free gifts, like tons of junkmail and more spam. the city plans on selling names and addresses of its citizens to advertisers for monetary gain. i'm glad i'm not gonna be in their new database.
Consider the rhetoric here:
"a city of the future" (hype)
"miniscule expense" (no evidence)
"$100 million savings" (no evidence)
"more weapons for fighting crime" (hype)
This is a political sales pitch, pure and simple, and even worse, it involves an end-run around a process that was designed to protect the public's interest.
While I agree that cities may have a problem with their current technology, solving it by digging a huge pit, and then slowly burying yourself as a company like M$ begins to extort larger and larger sums of money (in the form of licensing/support agreements, of course), isn't the way to go.
Well I'm wondering a couple of things.
One what OSS tech. is or could be made comparable to what MS is offering.
Two just how bad is the situation in New Orleans that they have to make such a deal.
Open bidding's taken care of too: "Because these services are considered a gift, the city won't have to publicly bid the project." Sounds like dirty pool to me.
If its legally considered a gift, that means there can be no consideration of future payment involved. They should just take the gift and then later bid it out anyway.
No way!
Looks like Microsoft has found its perfect partner in crime.
pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
> Sounds like dirty pool to me.
Well, what's to stop a vendor like RedHat from offering a similar deal?
... New Orleans, being a massively under-technological wonder-city, has *no* obligation to accept the offer from Microsoft. They choose to. They could have looked into Linux, BSD, Apple Mac, C-64 GeOS, or whatever they damn well like. But they didn't. They could have researched its cost effectiveness. But they didn't. They could have spend a month trying different systems and running different distributions of other OS's to find out what best suited their needs. But they didn't.
See a trend here? The classic Microsoft-hater liturgy: MS "forced" something on someone/a group/a government even though that someone/group/government could have researched otherwise. So now Microsoft is the bad guy. It's called Doing Business. Businesses that eventually die don't evolve, are not self-propogating, and do not try new avenues and ventures in order to magnify their revenues. Businesses that survive, do.
Perhaps get your heads out of whatever dark smelly hole they're housed in, and realize that this is the way business works. Unless you decide to change the entire American "way", get used to it. Whining about it won't make it better.
Microsoft gives away some free software and the 'Free Software' movement gets all pissy about it. Ain't life a bitch sometimes?
It's too bad for New Orleans that they can't get Linux or FreeBSD for free somewhere.
But, 'next year' comes around and the interest charges include those prior months and the high monthly bills start rolling in.
Some people live but some people never learn.
Running with Linux for over 20 years!
Imagine a company selling tires has a 90% market share. Suppose they are convicted monopolists. How would competitors react to this company offering the city police new tires for free for the next five years.
Would the city even go with this firm, if they knew they were obliged to keep buying these same tires for many years to come afterwards? For the city traffic infrastructure would need to buy from them afterwards...
but you don't want MSFT to give away its software?
If it's such a good idea, perhaps it should be codified into law. Government shall only use free software. Wait a minute, they're opposed to that.
The question has never been one of whether the software is free or not but whether the software's souce codes (or at least all data formats) are freely available to the public. IMHO (and I think other's as well) ANY software, except that for defense, that is obtained, for compensation or not, by a public (govenmental) entity should be required to have all of its technical details (souce, formats, protocols etc) available to any citizen within the community in question. Otherwise it makes it that much harder to change in the future and without change there can be no growth. If M$ opens its source then I won't have a problem but until that day comes I think it wise for government to stay divested as much as possible from such sandtraps.
Do you have a link to this admittedly very interesting backstory?
The coolest voice ever.
Nope, reread the article, it doesn't say anything about NOLA being restricted to using ONLY MS products.
Further, IFF you know anything about MS server products, the consulting and aftermarket business they generate is astonishing.If you're running an MS shop, you will quickly learn the meaning of TCO. And network security. And data redundancy.
"It *is* a bribe."
One man's bribe is another man inducement. Whether we're talking about Triple Coupon Day, Zero Dollars Down on a Lexus, Zero Percent Financing on a Chevy or a Free Hot Wax with every Car Wash on Tuesday.
MS don't have any real position in goverment software systems, so they can't be accused of market domination. That means they're safe from any legal blowback.
HEY, I HAVE AN IDEA!!!!
Why doesn't RedHat or Mandrake or Debian make a counter-offer to NOLA to provide them with LINUX systems, tit for tat, for all the services that MS is offering?
Think what a great headline that would be for LINUX.
"Entire City of New Orleans goes OpenSource."
That's how you play and that's how you beat them. Competition. The Amurrican Way.
BTW, you do realize, don't you, that this is a rather BIG validation of "free software" (small 'f"), and MS has done little in the last few years but tell everyone that "free software is worth what you pay for it.
Interesting, that they're "giving it away".
What could that mean? HMMMMMMMM
Ten quid, she's so easy to blind. And not a word is spoken...
Microsoft gives N'Orleans the first one and they have to pay later? Like drug pushers? (First one's free).
New Orleans has a larger looming problem if they head down this path: the cost of hardware upgrades.
The problem with tying oneself to M$ is that you need more powerful hardware everytime they release a new version of bloatware.
If New Orleans can't buy software, how the hell are they going to keep upgrading their hardware with every release?
A friend of mine works at the Contemporary Arts Center in New Orleans. One of their revenue streams is renting out their 2nd floor, 3rd floor and warehouse space for parties. Just last month she worked a huge Microsoft party at the CAC. HUGE. XP bloat, huge. Gates was rumored to have been there, althought she didn't see him. I'm thinking she said that numerous city officials were there, though. ...the party after the monumental decision is made, perhaps?
-- I'd say your post was about 3 monkeys, 18 minutes.
Have you even visited a minumum security prison, let alone a maximum security prison? I think death is a huge grace when compared to life in one of these hell holes.
Yes, you think that ...death is a huge grace... compared to beeing locked up in any kind of prison. Does that mean everyone have to share your point of view? My very uninformed guess is that there are lots of people currently on death row that would rather be in a very high security prison. I guess the opposite isn't that very common. In my not so humble opinion it is not the matter of any state to decide whether it's citizens are to live or die. Recognize this quote?
Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.
Who? A fictional character called Gandalf (Well, Tolkien), speaking of another fictional character called Gollum. Still it is one of the best all-time quotes imo.
--
"I'm surfin the dead zone
In the twilight, unknown"
Now's your chance to volunteer some free time and offer help to install some open source software. Beat Microsoft to its own game. Then use it as a model for all cities in the US.
You have what it takes, you know that. All you need is some getting together and a plan of attack.
*Sigh*, I wish I was an American living in New Orleans by this time. I'd sure be glad to help.
Yet it is not free according to the second paragraph - it has strings attached and an undisclosed cost.
The second paragraph says:
The only requirement the computer giant has made of the city is
then lists 2 requirements:
(1) that New Orleans let Microsoft use it as a model for marketing the system to other governmental bodies once it is up and running, said Greg Meffert, the city's technology officer.
(2)Eventually, he added, the city will have to purchase software from the company, but he said it would be a "minuscule" expense.
So there are at least 2 requirements and a cost. Also, define "minuscule". If I were a taxpayer in the Big Easy, I'd sure as hell want a number. Big numbers always seem minuscule to public officials spending someone else's money.
Because these services are considered a gift, the city won't have to publicly bid the project, he said.
Some real hardcore and in-depth journalism here. It sounds more like the real story might be that Microsoft has found a way to do an end-run on the public tendering process. Also, if MS wants a real proving ground, they should be paying the City of New Orleans to compensate for the inevitable problems while they host the trial. Instead, the 'start button' for the trial will probably bring up a EULA box releasing MS from all liabilities and the Mayor will have to click the button.
This just sounds like a variation on a common practice - the 'free gift'. The phrase 'free gift' is one of the most insidious and abused phrases in modern language, yet people fall for it all the time.
There ought to be a law...
Sigs are bad for your health.
It now looks quite clear how Microsoft plans of keeping control of the market. They make the desktop operating system, the server operating system, the database, the applications software. A nice neat package to do a specific job, complete! Just sign the contract and sit back. No need to call IBM, Sun or HP. They would still offer bits and pieces instead of a complete package. The ultimate weapon? Microsoft could withdraw its desktop operating system unless you buy a complete package. Very strong marketing plan.
The one regional newspaper, the Times Picayune, does not put much of its content online. The story has gotten a lot of play in the local media but it's still local politics so I haven't seen it on the major news sites.
Brackets contain world's first nanosig, highly magnified:[.]
Lindows and Microtel could come up with something here. Or even RedHat could come up with something. But either one of those groups probably couldn't afford it. Maybe some local LUGs could do something (snicker).
Everyone here is hating Microsoft for offering to set this up for free and help them migrate to MS from their old system. Yes they need to have people to maintain this system, but MSCE's are a dime a dozen. New Orleans old system is going on 30 years old and who knows how much longer it will work.
I think more Linux businesses (ie RedHat) or LUGs should go around to local governments and such who might have old computer systems and offer to help them convert to Linux/BSD whatever.
www.eFax.com are spammers
And its true our current systems in City Hall are extremely old and outdated, and our options are pretty limited due to money factors and closed mindedness, but is this what we really want? Nagin and Gates seem to be quite chummy, and this makes me very uncomfortable. I will not allow Microsoft to run over my city!
People are saying that the catch is that New Orleans will have to upgrade, and then they'll be stuck with a big cost. Based on the previous city upgrade schedule, that'll be in the year 2020. At that point, it won't matter.
The important part is that the city is getting the infrastructure to move into the modern business world. I don't recall anybody else jumping in to support this radical change -- Redhat, IBM, Sun?!? It's a smart play for MS, and a smart play for New Orleans. If other cities can pull it off, then please do so.
New Orleans is sinking man, and I don't wanna swim.
New Orleans citizen: "Blue flashing traffic light? Hmmm. I have never seen that before, 'cept at Kmart".
Table-ized A.I.
After reading the original article i do find the mistake that New Orleans wont have to buy "the software" later...they will have to buy software later...slashdot reported this incorrectly IMHO. But hey, microsoft comes out looking like the god guy in all the this, right? they are being charitable. Yeah, okay right...mmmhmm im sure. Another point, Micro$oft is known for its lack of security, so im sure hackers everywhere will be loving the fact that crime files lack on a easily hackable windows system, eh? I have a feeling this is the begginning of the end, folks
~Just keep eating, porky. Fat people are harder to kidnap.
Today's random quote at the bottom of the page:
"Beware of geeks bearing graft."
My name is Carlos Montoya. You share files of my music. Prepare to die.
That's free software as in it won't cost Microsoft a dime, because eventually you have to pay for it. DUH.
Hell no, they don't need to go to bid, that might give someone else a fair shot.
You know, I am beginning to think Microsoft OWNS the government.
-There is more to this than just, "give them the first hit for free." Most public safety systems are based on other systems developed partially with government grant funds. The vendors avoid ownership questions by structuring the contracts such that the software is ostensibly free, and the only software charge is for customizing it. This has the added advantage of avoiding sales tax in many areas.
-A great many of these public safety systems are already sold at a loss. The vendor only gets well from changes and add ons such as software maintenance contracts on the systems. This is not completely a scam, since the only limit on how often agencies will change their minds about what they want is money.
-One hundred million sounds very inflated. Cities much bigger than New Orleans have built such systems for far less. It is only if you are throwing in things like a new police radio system and microwave network to connect all of the city offices that you can get the price that high.
-Any fairly new municipal government computer system, particularly in a destination city like New Orleans, draws a steady stream of tours by politicians and bureaucrats on junkets from other cities. This seems to be good for the ego of the local politicians and bureaucrats. As a result, vendors routinely make a big production of assuring the locals that their system is going to be a showcase. This has the added advantage of allowing the locals to convince themselves that even if the vendor has a lousy reputation elsewhere, this time will be different.
Jake: "Shit!"
Elwood: "What?" Jake: "Rollers!" Elwood: "No!" Jake: "Yep!" Elwood: "Shit!"
if you're going to go with the silly, badly spelled version it's nawlins.
i mean, where do you even get nor'leans? n'orleans i could have understood.
and this finger wagging from someone in new york of all places is pretty sad. yes, this town is corrupt. yes, we let our bars stay open all night. yes, you're free to write a crappy script about about some voodoo murder mystery where every other character is named (boudreau or thibodeau) with your bottomless wisdom of this town. just make sure you give everyone really absurd accents and include shots of a mardi gras parade no matter what time of year your story takes place.
"eventually has to buy the software"
"Because these services are considered a gift, the city won't have to publicly bid the project"
Receiving an item to be repayed at a later date is a loan, not a gift. They are bypassing the public bid system. Either they are taking a loss to establish a monopoly or it illustrates how much they gouge everyone else with huge margins.
Almost all economic mistakes in history were caused by one of two things:
- ignoring the big picture and focusing (selling) only on short or long term
- ignoring all the groups of people and focusing (selling) only on one group
There is no free lunch.
Don't make me sick LoseNotLooseGuy on your ass. My apologies if you're suffering from Alzheimer's and not just a language deficiency.
..the aversion to a public bidding process.
If the mayor had some amount of intelligence, he could say, "Look, we gotta have a proper bidding process here, but feel free to offer your stuff on the same terms for the bid."
This way, he'd avoid bribery allegations and it would also open things up for an even better offer to come through. Also, if Microsoft won (which I would actually expect, especially if they're offering migration support as well as software) they could then point to the city and say "See? Our software got chosen over supposedly 'free' software. Our software is therefore better, and that's why we charge."
Easy opportunity for a double win for MS (they get their test city and get it in an open bid) and a double win for the mayor. (He's squeaky clean, plus gets his free software)
Is there some flaw in the logic that MS and the mayor are seeing here that I've missed, or are they just going blind?
That Jesus Christ guy is getting some terrible lag... it took him 3 days to respawn! -NJ CoolBreeze
You see it's stuff like this that makes me happy we have a community of Linux and Open Source users and as users of linux we should compete against M$ and use each other as a mechinism to boast about our source the freebird Project freebird.8m.net is a new project devoted to finding people who want to make linux Advertisable through television and radio and any other media types if we can build this network we can take the cuffs of new orleans.
At least one business in New Orleans uses Windows, and they don't care if it stays up or not. Takes a lot of talent to put up a linux system, and they're short on that.
Real gifts come with no strings attached - a no contracts.
Is this really a gift?
Yes, yes, corporate America could run government much better than elected officials. Of course they could. If only the chiefs of AOL, Enron, Philip Morris, and Worldcom were running our local, state, and federal governments, things would be so much more efficient.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
I live down here in New Orleans so I think I speak with some authority on this subject...
;o) Everything goes down here.. We are used to it ;o)
See New Orleans is a unique city where at any given time you got more parties, public nudity and drunkiness then anywhere else in the country combined! So New Orleans is a perfect place for Microsoft to test their stuff since when it starts crashing everybody will be too drunk to notice it or even care about it.. Afterall New Orleans is known as Big Easy
THE WHOLE CITY OF MICRO ORLEANS NOW HAS TO RECITE THE EULA BEFORE GOING TO BED. methink the scheme goes like this:
somecity, usa. Through MS support inept governance takes place (3-5) years.
IT starts to fall drastically behind. It is now obvious even to a clicker that the city bureaucracy is in trouble.
Billy Gatos comes to the
mayor's rescue. What a deal: the mayor scores a major victory, MS owns the souls of the citizens.
how do you represent a foul burp in letters?
Um, beg pardon, but, so far as I know, all translations of the Bible are deemed to be inspired by God, and so divinely accurate by definition...
Sorry, couldn't resist playing Devil's Advocate .
'nuff said -
This isn't a gift, it's a loss leader. How can they circumvent competitive tender regulations by pretending the first part of a huge lucrative deal is a gift. It's crazy. Microsoft isn't giving them the hardware because they think they will lose money on this deal. Just how dumb are these civic leaders?
Of course, people are quite correct to point out that this kind of tactic is common in business. It's still stupid for governments to fall for it. Public tendering is the way to go for any big government purchase - heck, for any big purchase.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
The problem is that there was no bid process. Clearly Microsoft gains in this, or they wouldn't do it. Shouldn't others be able to show how their solution would be even better for the city long-term, and the potential problems with the existing solution?
This is the entire reason that government entities have bid processes - to make sure that noone is slimeballing their way into making the city pay out large sums of money. In this case, the payment is delayed, but the lock-in is evident.
Engineering and the Ultimate
>The only requirement the computer giant has made of the city is that New Orleans let Microsoft use it as a model for marketing the system to other governmental bodies once it is up and running, said Greg Meffert, the city's technology officer.
Two words: Aluminum siding.
rj
Teeth? Surely you meant Fangs.
Microsoft must have taken a look at the drug dealing bussines ******** Here, have a free smoke, its good and i give it to you free
Elwood:"I bet these cops got SCMODS."
Jake:"SCMODS?"
Elwood:"State, County, Municiple Offender Data System."
Jake:"Shit!"
[ Cops remain in cruiser for 5 minutes, waiting for Windoze to reboot...]
[ Camera pans to Police Data Display, as the MS logo changes to white characters on a blue background. ]
Cop: "Shit! It's the blue screen of death! Again!"
[ Cop steps out of car, approached Jake & Elwood ]
Cop: "Well Elwood, I would run a more thorough search, but our computers are down, I'll have to let you off with just a warning."
Elwood: "Have you guys ever heard of Linux?
Cop: What's that? Does it link to my GPS database of doughnut shops?
Elwood: Never mind.
Who would you rather have creating a bureocracy...
a microsoft run and efficient bureocracy... or one created by the government... this is inevitable... I knew microsoft was going to pitch this sooner or later... wich the experience they get from mapping business rules and so one they will increase their lead even more... but like i said... I am happy with microsoft... someday we will all be working for microsoft and the world will be a much better place
After working for over 4 1/2 months abroad, mostly in Central America, I can say without a doubt that governments being courted by Microsoft to deals like this one.
**If you start to read the fine print, you may find clauses that: **
a) lock them into using only Microsoft's OS. This inludes security devices such as firewalls.
b) lock them into this deal for a period of 3 years.
c) provide no upgrade service.
d) provide access to all databases, etc. for the transition effort.
These types of deals are going to be a global concern.
Lot's of Open Source guys rant, rave, hem and haw talking about how Microsoft is crappy and evil.
If you want to help the public, hold their hand and educate them. Show them stuff they can relate to... skip the new wiz cool skin/desktop. Show them business productivity and INNOVATION!
Show them the numbers.
These deals will be a problem if someone doesn't step in.
1. This is an HUGE OPPORTUNITY for some LINUX distro and Company with hair to get some media exposure (FREE marketing -- hard to comeby in this world).
2. If NOLA + MS is going to short-circuit the bid process, why shouldn't EVERYBODY get to play? (BTW, this is almost certainly a ***LEGAL*** circumvention of the bid process -- very few governmental entities have a rule against accepting ***FREE*** anything, as long as it is NOT an attempt to gain POLTICAL FAVOR). This is VERY, VERY slick on MS' part.
3. VERY FEW Federal, State, Regional, Municipal entities have a F*****G CLUE when it comes to IT procurement. They are freq well behind industry in IT acquisition/deployment (not all that many corporations are great at it either).
So, NOLA is gonna do whatever NOLA is gonna do. Courts might reverse it later, much later. Probably not (separation of powers and all that).
I suggest you consider what my main man, StevieB, has probably already figured out...once a few 2nd/3rd tier munincipalities have adopted a 'City Wide' apps and services vendor (WHOEVER that is) it will MUCH, MUCH easier to sell the rest of them.
Procurement specialists (need to be careful about discussing 'procurement' in NOLA -- my favorite American city) in government jobs are VERY, VERY conservative and follow a "herd rule". Once a few of these entities adopts a given solution, many/most of the others will follow.
We can sit on the sidlines and cry "Foul" and ask for the "Ref" to intercede (and we've all seen how effective that strategy is, haven't we?), or we return the punch.
Quod erat demonstrandum...
Ten quid, she's so easy to blind. And not a word is spoken...
Let them do it. They can only get egg on their face later, or it will cost too much to run.
That is the real question. How can we find out what
other cities are being approached??
Tom Cruise and John Travolta really kick ass.
Or was that they really lick some ass.
Well anyway. Send in "XENU the barbarian" to take care
of the those windows users.
If I remember right, fletch 2 took place in thibideux louisiana. I'm not shocked that life is going to imitate art!
But it doesn't matter what the Old Testament says, or if it's mistranslated as it is over written in Christianity by the New Testament, and seeing as the message of the New Testament is a definate forgive the sinner, it is hard to see how putting anyone to death is acting in accordance with the Bible. However, the USA is suppose to be a secular society where government and law are concerned so I don't think it matters anyway.
I live close enough to tell you all that something already stunk there way before Microsoft stepped in. Just get a whiff when you walk down Burbon St.
PU!
Honestly, the city needs something. From reading the article and the city's public forum seems like their biggest hurdle is going to be getting workers now. They have to hire people from inside the perrish. And I'm sure there are a few who qualify, however, most of the people that live in the perrish aren't going to be skilled enough to run anything besides a store or a garbage truck, there just aren't enough full time residents there who can get the job done.
Once they relax that policy and you can live in, lets say Kenner, then maybe I think about helping out.
-Tony
If you need a system customized for running a traffic ticket managment system, then Linux can be customized to do so. Do you need a way to keep track of city salaries, Linux can do a better job of managing a database of names and income levels.
Oh, really?
What evidence do you have of this?
How many cities do you know of that use Linux to run their traffic lights, manage their employee information, or do any of the other things you mention?
Getting ahead now is fine, but what is Microsft going to say 5 years from now when its time to upgrade again? Do you really think they'll allow the city to keep its copies of Windows XP when the special license agreement says they must upgrade or else?
I have never seen such an agreement on any piece of software (Microsoft included) I have owned. Can you explain the terms of this agreement further, or are you just FUD-mongering?
- A.P.
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
display the Blue Screen of Death?
Juiz de Fora IRC
Because these services are considered a gift, the city won't have to publicly bid the project, he said.
When there are strings attached that later on down the road they'll be forced to buy software, how can they claim it's a Gift?
I guess since our government is in bed with MS, they'll continue to let MS be anti-competative
--It's all about maintaining POWER AND CONTROL; what bastards!
WTF they gonna do when Billy says the licence has expired. They'll be fucked.
USM: The United States of Microsoft.