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"Fastest Browser On Earth" Cuts Crud
gabec writes "The guys at Opera have been rewriting their rendering engine over the past 18 months, tossing out legacy code and making the browser more DOM compliant with the intention of making the self-proclaimed "fastest browser on earth" even faster. They claim to have succeeded, according to this article on ZDNet.. Fun stuff.. ;)"
More impressive.
Gotta stop mixing Dayquil and Nyquil.
They need a few things, IMHO. The frist is a hotkey to enable/disable popus (which they may have, I haven't looked very deeply). The second is a mozilla-like "kill all popups I don't request" option. They kill *all* popups, which interferes with my webmail programs, surveys, etc.
Moderation: Put your hand inside the puppet head!
First of all, this is bait for trolls to speak about IE and flaming OS zealots to scream about mozilla
.01seconds to render the pictures on a screen.
Between Opera, IE, and Mozilla, the speed difference is small enough for your average user not to know the difference.
I think we're better off improving the features (like removing pop-up adds, etc...) than to try to squeak out another
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
Actually, I.E. will always be the best browser. Say what you will about Microsoft, they make a damn fine internet browser.
Finally, math books without any of that base 6 crap in them.
surfing pr0n in an Xterm. w3m forever!!
Classic. SOmeone says "Mozilla is better" and get modded up, someone says "IE is better" and gets modded down.
Slashdot-think anyone?
...that Opera is the fastest browser doesn't actually make it faster (although some religious types might believe differently).
-- SIGFPE
The guys at Opera have been rewriting their rendering engine over the past 18 months
Was rendering speed ever a problem, in either Opera or IE? Back when I used a double-digit MHz processor maybe, but even on a Pentium II 333 I don't give page rendering speed a second thought.
"World's fastest browser" smacks a whole lot of the "Pentium IV makes the internet faster" nonsense. The bottleneck, even on a slow processor, is the network connection.
My wife can flip through the closeout clothing racks in a store at near light speed.
You wanna talk browsing speed? Opera ain't got nothin' on her.
PointlessGames.com -- Go waste some time.
MassMOG.com -- Visit the site; Use the word.
It needs work, but Dillo is the fastest graphical browser I've ever used. As fast if not faster than a text-only browser like lynx, links or w3m. Galeon feels incredibly slow next to Dillo, and Galeon usually feels pretty fast to me.
Microsoft ain't much for Open Source, but they are for Open Holes. IE has so many holes in it with no patches or anything. Damn fine internet browser? Sorry, but no, you are wrong.
except for security bugs that let hackers root your system :)
sarcasm
Actually, I.E. will always be the best browser. Say what you will about Microsoft, they make a damn fine internet browser.
Damn fine until you realize you can't block popups or have tabs. But then again -- maybe I am the only one who does not liked popups and thinks 1 window is cleaner than 15 windows.
(+1 Funny) only if I laugh out loud.
is it faster than Lynx?
Mozilla > Opera
Mozilla wasn't built for only browsing. It was built as a platform, for further development in the open source community. Thus, speed is not the main focus, but useability, and modability. Opera on the other hand, is zoned in on being a hella-good browser. They don't mess around trying to incorporate extra packages and options that are just not necessary for average users. The problem is, average users use IE...
By the way, if you get the student discout, it's half price to buy opera, sans banner ads. And, unless i'm mistaken, that purchase lasts a lifetime.
But ultimately, Hurd concluded, Opera and other Microsoft competitors would do better to support the technologies that the market-leading Internet Explorer browser made available, rather than focusing on industry standards
Mozilla does not attempt to cater to the IE crap-nuances. Opera does. They actually write code that basically says 'click here to emulate IE f0rk-ups.' Oh, i do like opera more than mozilla or 'scape, for my little pitiful uses. I LOVE the glorious plethora of shortcuts, both mouse and keyboard
I didn't know so I found out...
What does DOM stand for?
The Document Object Model. This means that we are developing a model in which the document or Web page contains objects (elements, links, etc.) that can be manipulated. So you will be able to delete, add, or change an element (as long as the document is still valid, of course!), change its content or add, delete or change an attribute. You will be able to get a list of all the H1 elements in the document, or all the elements with an attribute CLASS="foo".
Why should I support or use the DOM?
The DOM API provides a standardized, versatile view of a document's contents. By supporting the DOM API, a program not only allows its data to be manipulated by other routines, but does so in a way that allows those manipulations to be reused with other DOMs, or to take advantage of solutions already written for those DOMs. This interoperability also allows programmers who invest in learning to use the DOM calls to apply those skills to other DOMs.
The intent is that -- if you stick with the standardized APIs -- any DOM implementation can be plugged together with any DOM-based application. The original example of this was dynamic-HTML scripts; by agreeing on the DOM as their standard representation of the document, scripts can be be written that will work properly on all browsers. But this applies to larger-scale programming as well; for example, a server-side solution might be built out of the following reusable components, which may or may not all share a single DOM implementation:
A database which presents its contents as a DOM tree. (Note that the underlying data presented via a DOM need not itself be DOM-like. The DOM is a tool for manipulating data, not a data structure itself.)
An XML parser which generates a DOM tree, used to read a stylesheet.
An XSLT processor which combines these, producing a new DOM tree. ("Extension routines" in the XSLT stylesheet may also access the source document via the DOM.)
A routine which writes a DOM's contents out to the network in the desired syntax (XML, HTML, or other).
If a better implementation of one of these modules becomes available (a faster XML parser, for example) or if an additional/different processing stage is required, you should be able to unplug the existing connections and plug in the new component with minimal recoding.
(The goal is "no recoding", and that is already the case for many applications, but at this writing the DOM Level 2 APIs are not yet complete enough to promise this for all applications. In particular, some of the tools needed to construct a DOM "from scratch" are not yet exposed in the published APIs, and the DOM has not yet defined a representation for the DTD/Schema information.)
Similarly, while all DOM implementations should be interoperable, they may vary considerably in code size, memory demand, and performance of individual operations. So the ability to unplug and replace the DOM itself may also be very useful. For example, since some parsers can write into a user-provided DOM, you may be able to parse a document directly into the above-mentioned database.
There is one potential downside to using the DOM: As with any generalized set of interfaces, the DOM calls can be used to solve a very wide range of problems, but may not be the optimal solution for any specific problem. The advantages of interoperability and familiarity to users will more than compensate for this in many applications, but you will find that some tasks may call for other interfaces in addition to, or instead of, the DOM. For example, your application may wish to use custom interfaces internally for performance reasons, yet be able to import/export/expose its data via the DOM for convenient access from outside.
I am developing a product using the DOM specification. What must I do when the product is released?
Full details are in the DOM specification. A brief summary follows:
if you are copying the DOM specification into the documentation of your product, then you must cite the source (including the URL) and include the W3C copyright notice and the status of the specification
if you are intending to build technologies based on the DOM specification, then you are free to use these. W3C specifications and sample code are freely available for any use by anyone. If you are going to change the DOM bindings in any way, you must document that the bindings have been changed and change, for example, the Java package names.
Why doesn't the DOM specify anything regarding memory management?
The DOM specification does not define any methods related to memory management (such as to release an object). This is because while the DOM is a programming language independent API, the way one deals with memory is very language specific. Therefore any method related to memory management that is required by a particular language, needs to be specified in that language binding. Due to the way memory is managed in Java and ECMAScript, none of the bindings included in the DOM specification have such methods.
-mbell
Opera seems to crash on me a lot. This happens whether or not I have Javascript disabled. Anybody else have that problem.
Fast browser slowed by repeatedly loading large, annoying advertisements begging the user to purchase the browser. Details at 11.
But ultimately, Hurd concluded, Opera and other Microsoft competitors would do better to support the technologies that the market-leading Internet Explorer browser made available, rather than focusing on industry standards.
"What these other browser makers should do is stop complaining about what Microsoft is doing and start supporting what Microsoft is supporting," Hurd said. "People out there aren't reading these specs; they're using IE."
This would be a huge mistake for any competitor. Why would you want to jump into line with MS? You would have no opportunity lead. You would just play catch up and never be able to offer the customer a superior product.
Follow the standards and anyone can lead the market if they implement them better. They will also avoid being blindsided by new MS "standards".
-- My HARDWARE, My CHOICE.
The coded i develop is first certified with W3C and then tested for satisfaction within Mozilla because 9.9/10 times I know I don't have to tweak anything for it to be viewed in IE at that point but not the other way around.
Regarding Opera, its definitely 3rd in compliance with W3C standards and explains the arrogant tart comment about not worrying about standards but targeting an approach to hack what IE hacks.
Well... it's one thing to say one is better and give concrete reasons, but to say one "will always be better" is pretty much Flaimbait. That's a pretty ludicrous claim, don't you think?
PointlessGames.com -- Go waste some time.
MassMOG.com -- Visit the site; Use the word.
From reading the article, I get the feeling that the real reason for the rewrite is not to get better speed, that would just be a side effect. It sounds like it had to be rewritten because they were running up to limitations in what they could do by just extending their current engine. These things happen from time to time with larger projects.
Opera's interface wasn't anything revolutionary in the first place. It definatly had quite a few advantages when it came to user interactivity with it mouse movement recognition, and caching techniques, but left room for quite a bit of improvement.
Hopefully the change from Legacy will not literally remove them from the game like it did intially for Netscape.
My ignorance is a perfect shield against your logic.
Actually, I probably will be moderated troll; but you know what? I can say that honestly, I will not put one above the other.. Mozilla is a respectable browser and a great open-source effort, but you know what? Microsoft, even with their horrid tactics definetly produce an amazing, fast browser. I'm not going to lie about it, it's an awesome browser. Not too fond of their mail client or operating systems, though ;).
The parent was not trolling either, he just has an opinion that differs slightly from 600-lbs men who spend all day in IRC and play games like "Move the red dot to the right", and "Bill Gates is a fag, LOL!".
Rather than bashing other browsers or saying one is better than the other. Why doesn't everyone just twiddle theirs thumbs and wait for the code to come out? Then we will see if a) they are in fact the fastest web browser and b) just how opera ranks vs Mozilla, etc.
I for one can't wait to try it out.
Animals have rights!
The part here that made me worry about the future of any non-MS browser software was
"What these other browser makers should do is stop complaining about what Microsoft is doing and start supporting what Microsoft is supporting," Hurd said. "People out there aren't reading these specs; they're using IE."
On the surface I agree with this (though philosophically I don't like the idea of establishing standards by enforcing a monopoly). If your going to compete you have to do what the leader is doing and try to do it better. What I worry about is that only the leader, who has large resources and a vested interest in seeing everyone else fail, inovates while the others spends all their time catching up.
I don't think thats happening with Opera or Mozilla...yet.
Today is a gift. Save the receipt.
fine internet browser
s/fine internet browser/dangerous shell/
cyn, free software and *nix operating systems enthusiast.
Is he serious? IE is not bad, and was the best browser; that is, when nothing else existed except POS Netscape 3 or 4.
Some points:
Is it fast? Not as fast as Opera, I've noticed. Not even a contest--no one is going to argue this.
Does it have a history of breaking standards? You bet your damned britches.
Does it only run on two platforms? What do you think, sonny?
Is it full featured? Yeah right! IE has BARELY updated their feature set for a couple of releases now. IE6 has seen bug fixes, optimizations, image toolbar, and the like, but they STILL don't have a download manager, still can't zoom. Puleeeease.
Is it buggy? I still see crashes in IE, but haven't for a long time in Opera.
Can it print web pages? In your dreams. Has anyone ever tried printing out a page in IE? Probably not, because it doesn't scale ANYTHING to fit the page properly, and has been an essentialy worthless feature since whenever--one must rely upon "printer friendly" versions a page to successfully print.
No.
it's the fastest browser on earth. It also seems to make my other apps hiccup (like making winamp skip) when I minimize it, but I think that is more of a problem with W2K
To read makes our speaking English good. - X. Harris
"But ultimately, Hurd concluded, Opera and other Microsoft competitors would do better to support the technologies that the market-leading Internet Explorer browser made available, rather than focusing on industry standards."
Wow does not that quote stick out like a sore thumb from the company that prided themselves on following the published standards? To me that is a scary way of looking at things.
(+1 Funny) only if I laugh out loud.
Yeah, I love it. I'd probably laugh if it wasn't so pathetically sad. Everyone I know that actually runs Linux/Mozilla and knows what they're doing(i.e., not a 12 year who installed Redhat off a bootable CD and considers himself "a linux user") completely agrees that I.E. is a great browser.
What's also funny is the ammo mozilla/opera users use in their arguments:
I.E. user: The compatibility with today's plugins and scripting languages is unparalled.
Mozilla/Opera user: We have pop-up killing!
I.E. user: The image renderer is awesome.
Mozilla/Opera user: We have pop-up killing!
I.E. user: Not to mention that while an open standard is best, you will find most webpages catered to users running I.E.
Mozilla/Opera user: We have pop-up killing!
I.E. user: You got a lot of pop-ups, don't you?
Mozilla/Opera user: All day, everyday, wall to wall pr0n and warez sites.
I.E. user: My god....
Mozilla/Opera user: 1337!
Finally, math books without any of that base 6 crap in them.
tabbed browsing.. zoom function that zooms both text and images.. mouse gestures so I don't even ned gui buttons for navigation.. no pop-ups.. author/user-mode toggle that is useful for those pages with unreadable text/background combination etc.. skinnable.. the adress bar turns into a status bar when loading a page (more screenspace ^_^).. very customizable..
Each time I have to use mozilla or IE it gets uncomfortable, if only for the mouse gestures that makes surfing that much more enjoyable, and perhaps the lack of the zoom (really handy lots of times).
I'd been looking to find out how to change the pop up options....awesome! thanks!
They stuck me in an institution, said it was the only solution, to...protect me from the enemy, myself
CSS2 and DOM are hard problems - IE's rendering engine needed a huge amount of work to get it halfway right in IE6. A lot of Opera's size and speed advantage comes from cutting corners.
(Statement of bias: I'm involved in Mozilla.)
http://rocknerd.co.uk
No it's not.
Mozilla IS better.
Denying it makes you ignorant.
Apart from it's constant freezes, security holes, lousy support of standards, no support for popup blocking, no cross-platform capability, no tabbed display and huge memory footprint yeah it is pretty good.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
For quite a while I used Opera 6, and I loved it. It was fast, and its tabbed browsing was fantastic. The mouse gestures were an unbelievable leap in the speed of web browsing. But I started to get a little ticked off that it blocked all popups, because I liked getting them when I clicked a little javascript button. In order to get these little windows, I had to dig through the extensive preferences menu and temporarily turn on popup windows. It soon began to get tiresome.
Then Mozilla 1.0 came out. I downloaded it, and I've been using it ever since. Mozilla could use some of the things that Opera has, like mouse gestures, but it is more stable (Opera had the habit of crashing when I had more than a dozen windows open) and at least as fast. That's right, Mozilla's rendering engine is at least as fast as Opera's "fastest on earth." Not only that, but it rendered many pages more accurately. With the release of 1.0, Mozilla is a very mature offering, and it makes Opera seem a little less professional, despite the hefty price tag.
Unless the new engine is considerably faster than Gecko, I for one will be sticking to Mozilla. Good luck to the Opera guys though.
Lack of eloquence does not denote lack of intelligence, though they often coincide.
Fastest browser on earth.
Generally the are talking about the render times etc. But what about the load time? When you are talking about windows pcs, you wont find something faster than explorer because its already open all the time. This gives it an advantage because it will always open faster than other browsers on others systems because its built right in. I will use mozilla tho to block those pesky popups.
Apologies. I forgot to close the bold tag.
I've designed pages with popups.....I admit, popup advertising is annoying, but having the larger version of an image appear in a popup when I click on a button....or poll results, or a movie clip, or ....etc,etc,etc is a interface feature I like and employ. I don't like having to leave a page or having an entire page of content be regenerated for 1 small thing.
And I hate tabs. They are annoying in the photoshop toolsets, they are annoying in the macromedia toolsets, they are annoying in NN/'zilla since they take up more window space on the smaller resolutions I have to design for. I like having pages in seperate windows so that I can resize them however I feel apropriate for comparing the data I'm looking at. I want to be able to place them on different monitors and desktops without opening another instance of the application. Or so I can send only 1 window to the alternate monitor and/or desktop without sending them all.
I'm out of my mind right now, but feel free to leave a message.....
Mozilla has more than just popup killing (Which fucking sucks in Opera)
The superior rendering engine
The superior tab system
The superior popup killing system
The superior interface
The superior memory managment
The superior mail/chat/news client
I could keep going on, but I don't spend more time than I need to on ignorant IE users.
Ya as I recall it renders renders MSN super duper fast.
I thought the browser war wasn't about speed but about using standards churn to lock out anything but the 'A Normal Browser'. Oh well, good for Opera.
KWTCMA
Opera has a lot of cool features that I like BUT there statement on being the "fastest" is total BS on linux I find Konqueror WAY faster and on XP I find IE to work the best, on a mac wit 9.2.1 (havent used X) I find IE to work the best all around. Opera is definately cool with registered copy but I have a 1.5mg connection for a reason (I am impatient) and waiting for opera to just open let alone get me from one page to another quicky (since im impatient) isnt worth it.
Ave Molech Setting
Microsoft.
That's right M$. They have academic licensing programs that, provided your school has subscribed, allow students to by M$ products for next to nothing. Windows XP for $15 is a damn big student discount.
Did I just plug Microsoft? Jesus Christ!
is the ability to Cancel a download, click the link again, and have the browser (usually) pick up where the previous download attempt left off.
My university's network can be somewhat unreliable, and downloads often stop midway through. I often find that using IE is the only way to get the download, even though I prefer Mozilla (and Galeon, when I'm using GNU/Linux).
#define sig "Every social system runs on the people's belief in it."
"Between Opera, IE, and Mozilla, the speed difference is small enough for your average user not to know the difference. .01seconds to render the pictures on a screen."
I think we're better off improving the features (like removing pop-up adds, etc...) than to try to squeak out another
Featuritis is what brought us bloated, slow browsers such as IE and Mozilla, while I'm an avid Mozilla user, it's comparatively slow and resource-intensive.
Opera has ALWAYS strived for performance , correct HTML, and truly useful features. Opera pioneered the MDI browser concept, as well as accessibility features such as full keyboard browsing, configurable page zoom and many others.
Best of all, they've ALWAYS done this without adding bloat to the browser. It's always been lean and mean, ever since the 1.x versions (I helped with some language translations so I know about this firsthand).
Keep in mind that many places still have aging 486 or P5 systems with little ram or hard disk to spare. On systems where Mozilla or IE won't even download due to lack of disk space, Opera installs and runs completely flawlessly, and absolutely flies when compared to the two leading browsers.
Why is this troll-lamer getting modded up?
/. these days.
Such stupidity in
Too bad I'm superior to everyone.
IE may reneder web pages well and load fast, but it is still a vulnerable POS that gives out too much control over to whatever website you happen to visit... no thanks, i don't want it
here are 3 essential opera features I cannot be without:
- mouse gestures! these things get addictive..
I can navigate without using keyboard/GUI.. only downside is I keep trying to pull them off in file explorer, and that doesn't work obviously.. I'm convinced mouse gestures will be implemented in a future version of windows (hope so anyway)
- zoom.. zoom images and text down or up as you please.. can't imagine a wired world without it hehe.
- pop-up killer! YEAH!
Mozilla has the pop-up killer.. great.. and perhaps it has zoom too? don't know.. but it will at least need a zoom and mouse gestures before I consider turning over to the lizard..
but mozilla is too bloated for my taste anyway i suppose.. one another great thing about opera is that it doesn't feel as bloated as IE/mozilla.
If its fastest then why is enlightenment dr 17 so slow?
We all know how well that worked for Netscape.
sulli
RTFJ.
Okay.. so it has a subset of dom but messing with document.stylesheets collection doesn't come out clean in Opera... Why do i want to purchase a browser that still has issues... yes IE sucks sometimes but its free, and I think that we are sick of tossing money into software for PCs
- what is the definition of simultanagnosia?! I've been meaning to look it up!
1: Actually, I.E. has the superior rendering engine.
2: We have a tab system as well, runs along a bar on the bottom of our screen.
3: I generally don't visit that many gay pr0n sites, so annoying pop-ups aren't really an issue. If I ever do face them, I know how to kill windows with a simple keystroke. Don't confuse "tricks for lazy people" with "superior features".
4: What, you're go and stop buttons blow mine out the water? 99% of my commands are keystrokes followed by the enter key.
5: Never really noticed a problem, even after browsing for hours on end.
6: I'll give you that one, the mail sucks, never chatted using I.E., and their news reader blows, just because it's hard to download files and it's a pain getting it to list every post in a group.
Good job chief, you keep at it.
Finally, math books without any of that base 6 crap in them.
I don't want a "platform", that's what my OS is for. I want a web browser. I don't want a bunch of useless shit clogging up what shiould be a small and nimble program. I don't want email or news on my broswer, I've got programs that were DESIGNED for those jobs and do them much better than any bolted on afterthought I've seen on browsers.
This, IMHO, is what screwed Netscape into the ground - the idiotic desire to not be just a wen broswer, but to be a platform for accessing everything on the Net. It turned Netscape 3.x, a lithe and nimble program, and turned it into the bloated, slow, anf buggy monster that was Netscape 4.x.
If what you want is a "platform", use AOL.
Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.
I just want to be able to do as much as possible, as easy as possible when making a webpage. I'm a TA at our local college. The universities official policy is to use Netscape as the main browser because of its integrated mail system (which doesn't screw up as much as outlook does).
However, a lot of instructors who use the web heavily (as in the course I teach, for example), require the use of IE. Why? Because it works more. Its more forgiving of browser errors; it has more built-in features; certificate setup is easier.
Me? I installed Win4lin so that I could continue to use MS. If someone else makes a browser that I can run js animations in just as fast, and that will work as easily with (private) certificates, and has as advanced a parser, I'll switch. And if I am browsing for mere text, I'll use galeon.
But when page displaying must be top-notch, I'll use IE. If everything that MS did was done in another way on another browser that I liked equally (or even other cool things that I liked using), I'd switch. I'd REALLY like to have a reason to cut out microsoft. But they still have the best, IMHO.
Think about this: the reason that people should do things the way Microsoft is doing them is not because Microsoft is doing it, but because Microsoft has implemented some good ideas. Personally, I think they should leave the OS and application businesses to people who know what they're doing, and just make and sell their browser.
Mod me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!
F12, w - accept pop-ups
F12, r - refuse pop-ups
F12, b - open in background
I don't use the other browsers at all so, as far as speed is concerned, that's where I notice it most.
_khl
Damn fine until you realize you can't block popups or have tabs.
Download.com gives this list of popup killers for IE. Seems like you can block popups quite easily.
Tabs is a little harder, but you might like to try BroadPage.
See, it wasn't that hard?
Sailing over the event horizon
I used Opera on Linux and it was OK. But when
I've installed it on MacOS X I was suprised how
crappy it is. Apparently they do not put much
effort in MacOS X version.
Once again you are incorrect on all parts.
You are ignorant.
The short bus is on its way to pick you up.
s/Cyn/Zealot#40576
No matter how you put it, code rewrite from scratch just means that they
;)
ended up with a messy code which got out of control, and had no choice but
to spend 18 months rewriting from scratch.
Cynicism apart, I have used Opera (much earlier version), Netscape, the new Mozilla,
IE, and even lynx, but being a very picky person when it comes to browsers,
I was amazed to see that I didnt have much to complain about Konqueror 3.0.0
Of course if you have used earlier konqueror, you wouldnt even consider it
a browser but its amazing how far they have come so fast. I bet they didnt
rewrite their core.
Its fast to load (I like to close unused windows), renders well, quite fast in
rendering, supports most websites and many times more accurate that IE in rendering!
Very neat bookmarks, nice DCOP interface, breeze for writing plugins, neatly
handles pesky popups, and on top of everything else, very cute too !
There are many missing wanna-haves like being able to launch your own satellites
but otherwise the best browser on earth
DO NOT PANIC
It's pretty amazing how much better the products get when even a small amount of competition is allowed to happen... I wonder what computing would be like if all software had such an opportunity.
People shape laws. Not the other way around.
Ah, yes!
You have to download crazy 3rd party addons to get what you want. I see I see...
Of course the superior browser, Mozilla, has all this ready for me out of the box.
IE does not.
Mozilla is clearly superior.
MS will probably never have tabbed browsing. MS officially declared MDI obselete, because it was application centric and not document centric. Just another way MS is not responsive to customers, their usability experts say it is better, so the customer can go to hell.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
I don't know about Mozilla, but Opera has this. It also seems more stable (and perhaps less bloated, although I haven't quantified that statement) than Mozilla as well. You also get a pop-up killer feature, is my favorite feature of Opera. My next favorite is the fact that Opera starts to download a file while you are choosing the location to save it to. More often than not, the download is done before I navigate to where it should be.
-B
Ash and Hickory, straight-grained and true, make excellent bludgeons, dandy for the cudgeling of vegetarians.
TO sum up every emotion and thought in my head I give you this personal quote:
I have a 15 inch black and white TV, I buy a 61 inch Digital Color TV, did all the bad shows before suddenly get better?
I have a slow web browser and I get a really fast web browser, do all the crappy web sites somehow become better?
WHO CARES how fast it is! If I am really big on visiting the site the whole 3-5 extra seconds doesn't mean shit! 99.999999999999% of pages aren't worth loading. Does a faster browser equate to a better browsing experience? Yes if there is good content. Whoopie! Now my pop-ads, embedded mpeg commericals, floating flash ad will load faster than BEFORE!! BITE ME....
-=[ Who Is John Galt? ]=-
What you mistake for zealot clearly labels you ignorant. Cyn speaks the truth. IE is a dangerious shell. Many webpages can execute commands through IE to causes reboots/shutdowns/etc.
Calling him a zealot just labels you ignorant.
By the way, if you get the student discout, it's half price to buy opera, sans banner ads. And, unless i'm mistaken, that purchase lasts a lifetime.
It's less than half price last I checked, and you only get one major version upgrade before needing to repurchase. I bought Opera 4, and I had to buy again when 6 came out.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
What's also funny is the ammo mozilla/opera users use in their arguments:
/me can see the "troll" mod already
As a webmaster I find myself hating IE more and more. Yes most of the webpages out there are designed for IE cause IE kills the standards. I can't get CSS to display properly on IE, but just fine in Moz. If i "hack" my code I can get it to display, but then it is nolonger w3 certitfied! What a pain!
Further more, It's not just that Mozilla/Opera has "Popup killer" it's that it is customizable. For example, I don't want IE resizing my damn jpg's and png's to fit the screen every time, yet I have not found a way to turn it off.
I'm tired of Microsoft making a new "hack" onto something great as webbrowsing and not standarizing it cause most people use there products anyway. I don't see the world as Microsoft sees it
Well this post has gone the wrong way.
Ah fsck it, I'm out
~nemith
Read the article closely and you'll see this quote:
"I've worked with Opera since version 3, and I've liked it a lot," said Monte Hurd, a systems architect with Starphire Technologies in Clearwater, Fla. "
Hurd isn't with Opera. Thank you and good night.
Good points. I feel I can make a good review on the subject since I do use (have to use) IE at work everyday. And yes -- if I wanted to I could install Windows and use IE at home. But since I don't, I can compare apples with apples. Yes -- before Mozilla stabalized (I use galeon) I did have a few flustered moments....But nowadays the things that IE does not do right, as listed above...are just WAY to big of a pain in the A** to ignore. Granted if IE could block popups, have tabbed browsing, zoom in zoom out, custom download manager, etc....Then maybe my only leg to stand on would be "They do not have a version for my OS of choice" (as it was a year or two back) but nowdays their really are better browsers than IE. Imagine that!
(+1 Funny) only if I laugh out loud.
Well, I see you have the whole age discrimination thing going on here; you must be quite insecure, having to blast on about how experienced you are.
;).
;).
My first successful install of Linux occured when I was 8 years old. I was more than happy to read the documentation that came with the distribution, learning the concepts behind the tools I would shortly be using to create disks and begin my install. After installation, I proceeded to go into some sort of RTFM frenzy (;), after which I configured X, which, at that time was quite a difficult task; compared to the whipper-snappers with their auto configuration tools of today.
But, you know what? After my rant, I think I will not say some stupid troll statement to you now.. I think you're right. I was a child Linux-user in the era where it was a very exclusive operating system; now any moron can stick a CD in and have it running in 40 minutes. So, in effect, you are right. I'm sure that rejected twelve-year olds would hop on the boat to consider themselves prodigal after running through a GUI-installer
And to think, I spent my childhood playing xevil and xbill
Thanks,
-J.S (only left here so if Kon stumbles onto this, he knows it's me. AXR is almost done).
I use Opera, but MyIE really impressed me as a GUI for IE's engine. Tabs, popup filters, etc; it's just a shame you can't use Gecko in it
If you want to block all popups, you can do it in IE by killing Javascript, or you have have a proxy kill the Javascript which does the popping up. What makes the "kill popup" feature in Mozilla so invaluable is that it only blocks "unsolicited" popups - it will let Javascript pop up a window in response to a click, but not otherwise. So you kill the ads, but pages still work as designed.
then you tell me why I always load up opera and not IE? the only thing that happens when I open IE is that I curse because there are no mouse gestures and I suddenly see popups =( oh and no zoom either, and I actually have to put up with an interface (in opera I don't NEED button interface because of mouse gestures doing basic stuff and menus rest)
The ability to pause and resume downloads more flexibly (like Opera's download manager -- which Mozilla's download manager is heavily inspired by -- does) is in the works (Bugzilla # anybody?) and will hopefully get added sooner or later.
Someone needs to drive that guy out of the industry. We are supposed to stop supporting standards and play follow m$ and whatever they feel like doing? That is the problem with the web as it is, you have too many web developers doing it the "IE" way and ignoring industry standards and then we wonder why everything is so screwed up. Ok so we don't wonder:)
.doc is niftier
While we're at it, lets throw out some other standards that I'm sure we don't need:
ASCII - ahh who needs it, maybe
ISO9660
IEEE 1394 - why do we need to follow a spec, why cant the device figure out what is coming at it on it's own? You don't own me, you can't tell me what protocols to use!!!
OK, I'll come of the celing now...
The superior tab system
Annoying. This is a personal preference, of course, but I hate those damn tabs. Also, what happens when the browser crashes? Does it take down all your tabbed sites with it? Because if IE ever trips on shitty scripts (which is rare), it only takes the one instance down when it crashes.
The superior interface
Now, I haven't played around with Opera in years, but judging from the screenshots, the interface is the same as all the other browsers.
The superior mail/chat/news client
I haven't used the Opera mail client, but I can safely say that, yes, it is better than OE. If it's better than Netscape Mail from the 4.72 release, I might make the switch.
You can add Gesture capability to Mozilla. Just get This.
Wow, wait to give examples and back that up with facts. Here's your helmet.
Finally, math books without any of that base 6 crap in them.
I use IE.
:)
I also use popupstopper (from Panicware).
So.... I have pop-up killing!
They talk to one web developer and this is the schmuck they get? My lord, is it any wonder the web is such a mess when professionals who should know better spout tripe like that? For the first time ever web developers can actually markup their documents to the specs and have a reasonable expectation that they'll display correctly in all the leading browsers.
Look, dammit, specs are good because they don't change with every minor revision of the program. Do you really want a web that Microsoft can lead around by the nose? News flash - IE has bugs. Should developers make their markup bug-compatible with IE, then change all their sites every time Microsoft releases a new version or bug fix?
Besides, he's contradicting himself. He complains that Opera doesn't support all of the DOM - why not instead complain that Opera doesn't support VBScript? That's a Microsoft "standard."
This isn't as much "normalization" as it is "don't take so many drugs when you're designing tables."
"Fastest Browser On Earth" Cuts Crud
Yes, but can it cut a tin can in half, then slice a tomato paper thin?
Opera never needs sharpening!!!
Bah weep granah, weep ninny bong!
I.E. user: The compatibility with today's plugins
Mozilla supports the Java platform, Flash, and QuickTime. What else do you need?
and scripting languages is unparalled.
Mozilla supports the HTML DOM better than IE does.
The image renderer is awesome.
Wrong. Unlike the image renderer in Mozilla, the image renderer in IE 6 doesn't even support alpha-transparent PNG images.
Not to mention that while an open standard is best, you will find most webpages catered to users running I.E.
Netscape Communications, the company that bankrolls the Mozilla Organization, is not being sued for antitrust violations.
And what about Outlook Express, the joke of an e-mail client that comes with IE? Wasn't that single program responsible for most of the e-mail worms that have plagued Windows machines on the Internet in the last three years? Yes, Microsoft eventually posted patches, but Mozilla's open development process (nightly builds from CVS) got them to the public sooner.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Some moments of light in this article, then not...
"This is a fuller implementation," Tetzchner said. "We could have improved support with the old engine, but it would have been more difficult. This is a more future-proof solution."
OK - that's a smart thing, imo - realizing that the legacy code is a dead-end and doing something about it.
"But ultimately, Hurd concluded, Opera and other Microsoft competitors would do better to support the technologies that the market-leading Internet Explorer browser made available, rather than focusing on industry standards."
"What these other browser makers should do is stop complaining about what Microsoft is doing and start supporting what Microsoft is supporting," Hurd said. "People out there aren't reading these specs; they're using IE."
Uh-oh - now they're dead. Here's a news flash; every company that ever tried to to "follow" MS's lead ends up getting served up in the MS cafeteria as stew. They will forever be behind, in the dark and ultimately out of business if this is their plan.
You know you're a geek if you've ever replied to a tagline.
I like having pages in seperate windows so that I can resize them however I feel apropriate for comparing the data I'm looking at. I want to be able to place them on different monitors and desktops....
uh... being able to use tab doesn't mean you have to use tab. You can still open links in new windows if you would like to.
Also, the anti-popup feature in Mozilla does not kill all popups, but only only the ones "you do not request for". While it does need some fine tuning, it's a lot better then most other approches you can find now.
it's about time that old fucker kicked the bucket.
What good does it do for Opera to render pages quickly, when it thrashes your machine to death every time it changes its own ad? Oh, yeah, right: upgrade to a paid copy.
There are front-ends for Internet Explorer that have features that you want, one I know of is CrazyBrowser. Note that I still think Internet Explorer is bad in general however.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Is Links!!! Or Lynx. No question. (Or wget depending on your persuasion).
You have to download crazy 3rd party addons to get what you want.
Mozilla is a "crazy 3rd party addon".
Of course the superior browser, Mozilla, has all this ready for me out of the box.
Out of the box, a home computer ordered from Dell.com (where the OS options are WinXP Home or WinXP Pro) will come with IE 6 installed. Mozilla is nowhere to be found until you download it using IE 6.
(I use Mozilla as my primary browser on my Windows 2000 box, but I feel that somebody has to state the other side of the story.)
Will I retire or break 10K?
The one feature netscape had....
is don't download to tmp and move grr..... those iso's shure chew up HDD.
Uh, newsflash: You don't have to use tabs in Mozilla. It's perfectly happy to open new windows if that's what you want. So far, the best thing about Mozilla is that I can make behave as I want it to.
That being said, I'm going to grab the spiffy new version of Opera and play with it lots.
Netcaptor
It wraps the IE rendering engine and gives you the following features:
- tabbed browsing
- configurable pop-up and url blocking (via regexp)
- pre-defined groups of pages you can bring up with one click
- F2-F3 to cycle through tabs
- macros on the address bar (search google by typing "g foo" on the address bar)
- aliases (go to slashdot by typing "s" on the address bar)
If you have to use IE, this is the only way to go.
I've seen it a dozen times...
As someone who has moz/opera/ie/netscape4 (ugh hate admitting that) on the same box, opera DOES load the fastest.....in terms of from when i double click it to when i can open a page.
followed by ie, followed by ns, followed (in a year) by moz.
i prefer browsing with moz, but the mouse gestures are far too kludgy. (sorry optimoz, you dont cut it)
so i use opera for the most part...and IE when i must. (and sometimes...even with moz...i must...damn frontpage)
When in doubt, parenthesize. At the very least it will let some poor schmuck bounce on the % key in vi. (Larry Wall)
Between Opera, IE, and Mozilla, the speed difference is small enough for your average user not to know the difference.
Rendering speed, yes. All three of them render pages in a heartbeat on virtually any hardware.
UI speed is something else entireley. On a 300Mhz K6 with 160MB RAM running FreeBSD 4.0, I can out-type Mozilla by a fair margin. This may not be the most modern hardware, but that is just plain ridiculous. It makes the app unuseable, which is a real shame. Galeon runs like a champ, as does Netscape 4.
Even on my dual 1Ghz P3 running W2k, the Mozilla UI is awfully sluggish. This is ridiculous.
On my 85 Mhz Sparcstation, IE5 is a bit slow but at least I can't out-type it.
You all talk about pop-up killers, mouse gestures etc. but if you have very slow modem (well, today 56k is slow) there is no better option than with ONE MOUSE CLICK to stop loading all images.
Pure html loads in just a second!
That's why I mildly use Mozilla (although IMHO is better in some ways).
Idarubicin wrote:
> And it really is the fastest (of IE, Moz, and
> Opera) browser on earth.
if small footprint is your main concern, ie you're less concerned about fancy sidebars, etc, you would do well to look into some of the alternate frontends for mozilla's engine. i've been playing with dillo recently, and while it doesn't do much more than display web pages, it does this a lot faster than mozilla on the same machine.
ofc, this might require an adjustment to the os you're using...
Sitting Walrus Blog
Some companies never learn
if you like ie6 but are missing features like tabbed browsing, a fully configurable pop-up blocker etc., try the crazybrowser (what a stupid name). it's basically an third-party upgrade for the ie. it's free too!
http://www.crazybrowser.com
i used to surf with opera, but since 6 it got unstable when viewing more than 7 tabs.
sic luceat lux
Lynx in a 132x50 terminal window is pretty farkin' slow
The thing I really, REALLY like is their implementation of the "innerhtml" construct (and outer, too, I suppose) in javascript, allowing you to rewrite from scratch ANY tag. That has more recently been added to several other browsers. I think they did that well from the start.
That has made a world of difference for my DHTML quick coding.
Of course, there was a bit of memory leak problem as a result of that...
Mod me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!
>is the ability to Cancel a download, click the link
:)
>again, and have the browser (usually) pick up where
>the previous download attempt left off.
I can understand this need. Why not go a step further and request that it also utilize multiple sources so it can improve throughput and download reliability?
By the way, isn't lynx faster than Opera?
Codifex Maximus ~ In search of... a shorter sig.
Um Check your hardware buddy... I've never seen IE6 crash rendering a webpage. Although I have crashed Explorer a few times doing funky stuff with my file systems... but thats not web-rendering is it, and we aren't compairing it as a shell. by far I think Midnight Commander is the best file browser.
"Is it fast? Not as fast as Opera, I've noticed. Not even a contest--no one is going to argue this."
I believe this is adequately addressed in previous comments, no one cares about the extras
"Does it have a history of breaking standards? You bet your damned britches."
I believe since it is the dominant browser out there (Like it or not) this is called setting the standard. Thats what a standard is, a widely accepted principle and if 90% of the people use it... its STANDARD.
"Does it only run on two platforms? What do you think, sonny?"
It runs on windows and Mac OS X. MS isn't about to port to Linux because they don't make money of Linux users. They sell lots of office software to Mac users though... Linux users in general are anti-MS which == NO $.
"Can it print web pages? In your dreams. Has anyone ever tried printing out a page in IE? Probably not, because it doesn't scale ANYTHING to fit the page properly, and has been an essentialy worthless feature since whenever--one must rely upon "printer friendly" versions a page to successfully print."
Point taken on that one, but once you start changing the way a page looks (scaling/moving/whatever) you are altering the content in a way the author might not have intended, which the way the law is heading now may very well be illegal in the not so near future. Not to mention I've seen "scaled" pages to fit on a legal paper where the print was so small it couldn't be read. Printer friendly is a standard for websites who wish to make content available for the user to print out. I wouldn't be surprised if in the near future the standard HTML set gets a . It is their intellectual property after all....
"If I were bound by all laws everywhere I'm sure I would have committed a capital crime somewhere."
Does anyone else have this problem? I downloaded Opera 6.03 rpm yesterday and put it on my Red Hat 7.3 box. Run Opera and I get a segmentation fault. Opera 6.02 works perfectly on the same box. Opera Software has a ghawd-awful system for reporting bugs (in my opinion) but I did go through the pain of reporting this and haven't seen anything yet. My report doesn't even show on the list of reports yet.
If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
Opera is closed and not free.
When I connect to the Internet I'm used to use -only- free and open software. The reason is that almost every closed source software that connects to the net soon or later will carry some spyware module that reports your net usage; what you're doing and where.
For this reason, even admitting that Opera is really a fast browser, I use Galeon to surf the net: slower, but trustworthy.
I also took a look at Links (not lynx), the mixed text-graphical browser and found it amazingly fast and small. Their page unfortunately seems dead and the project page on freshmeat is now closed to the public.
Anybody knows what's going on there?
Now, someone please make me happy and write a browser with the Links engine, the Galeon user interface and the Mozilla filtering capabilities!
Oooh! It displays mangled css even faster! Sweet!
There is an HTML tag for "open link in a new browser window", I believe. Except that in that case, it leaves you with all your menus, browsing control buttons, scroll bars, window-resizing abilities, etc. etc. Too many times I've had an unreadable popup window appear because I'm using a bigger font than they expect and it doesn't line up with the graphics, but they turn off all access to scroll bars. Grr.
I don't understand why people force users to open things in new windows, anyway. Maybe this is just a feature of *n*x-based browsers, but with Mozilla, Netscape, and (my fave) Galeon I can middle-click to get a new window, and I often do; saves the reload that often comes with hitting the back button. But that decision should be mine, not the page author's -- if I'm not coming back to the original page, I'd rather open the new one in the same window. (Is this a middle-click thing feature of Windows browsers, too? eg. Windows Mozilla? I'm pretty sure IE doesn't do this...?)
As for tabs, they're handy for when I open a page that does have popups. The popups go in their own tabs, and I can safely ignore them (if they're ads or whatever) and just close the whole window when I'm done with the page -- the popups all vanish with everything else.
-Erf C.
Cthulu always calls collect...
Form the article:
"But ultimately, Hurd concluded, Opera and other Microsoft competitors would do better to support the technologies that the market-leading Internet Explorer browser made available, rather than focusing on industry standards."
I don't know who this Hurd guy is but he is stupid, don't you agree?
If you think some feature is cool/useful you standardize it. That's how it's supposed to work.
Having said this - standards compliance may be _bad_thing_. Example: earlier Opera's have been happily ignoring many "cache-me-not" headers/metas. Now they are taken into account. Guess who's using them most? Good thing, I use Proxomitron but many people do not. At least that should be an option (ignoring "no-cache" instructions).
One more issue - does anyone really need "no images at all" mode in Opera? I could've been more happy if I could switch between "images"/"cached images" without that third mode (which is badly broken BTW, IMHO).
Anybody thinks the same?
Okay, this was flamebait, but I have to say that IE on Windows is good enough for everyone...
I don't speak from personal experience, since I don't use Windows. I was teaching a class recently where Windows was the only working desktop OS. My students, relative computer novices, ran into these awful pop-ups all the time. When I had them try Opera or Netscape, these same pop-ups were far less devistating.
http://www.crazybrowser.com there's tabs for you.
http://www.analogx.com there's a popup blocker.
But I suppose ad-ons in Moz are Ok but not in IE, right?
It's not just the rendering speed that is fast. The GUI is fast too. Of course, a banana slug will look fast when you are looking at Mozilla's GUI, but Opera is pretty snappy in its own right.
The cache handling is probably one of the most noticeable places where Opera is fast. No browser I have seen can whip out a page from cache like Opera. Since my browsing habits involve hitting the "back" button often, the snappiness is noticeable. Moreover, caching is highly configurable. No matter how slow your Internet connection, cache performance makes a difference.
Opera also has some UI conveniences that makes its featues very accessible. The quick preferences menu lets you toggle popups, plugins, GIF animation and proxies by hitting F12 and a click. Toggling image loading is a mouseclick away. My favorite feature is the button that toggles author/user mode styles: on pages with lousy fonts/colors, you get instant readability with a click. All these, too, save time and makes things fast.
I find it appropriate that he is rated +3 funny.
As a web app deveoper, I'd love to add another browser to the lists that I can support. Unfortunately, the list of unsupported features is longer than the list of supported ones. Hopefully they'll stick with the standard and implement the useful features of the dom (the ones they support now leave much to be desired).
As for tabs, try NetCaptor , which I haven't used myself -- but it looks like it adds that capability.
Normally, I'm not a Micro$oft fan in any way -- but I have to admit that IE generally does a better job at rendering the kinds of pages that actually live on the net.
Standards are nice, but if people are already failing to follow them, must we continue to have "nearly as good" or "works if the web author had followed the standard" browsers? What's the point of staying to a "standard" that isn't used? I'd rather be able to READ what's out there.
Just another way MS is not responsive to customers, their usability experts say it is better, so the customer can go to hell.
Well, if usability experts say it is better, then that - on top of the rationalization you also provide - is a perfectly sane reason to go the way MS has chosen. Except for the original poster, I have never heard anyone IE sucks for lack of MDI.
Actually, to play devils advocate, you can use proxomitron and have better popup/popbehind/popexplode/etc. filtering than any browsers attempt. Then add crazy browser for tabs...
:)
But.
I use Mozilla, but email/news/web browser runs as one task, if it crashs, the whole mozilla instance crashs.
Always something aint it?
Your concern is 100% valid. My comment was taken slighly out of context in the CNET article. I believe in standards and we test against Opera and Mozilla on a continual basis and I'm no MS fan. Let me repeat, I believe in standards 100%.
;-)
I was trying to make the point that now that Microsoft has achieved browser market dominance (with proprietary extensions included), strict adherence to standards is EXACTLY what Microsoft hopes non-MS browser developers will pursue as doing so necessarily creates incompatibility with IE. This in turn leaves users with the impression that non-MS browsers are broken or not as advanced when they fail to render pages in the manner IE has led them to expect.
I don't like Microsoft's tactics at all. Period. But unfortunately, at this point in the game, a browser's market penetration is more a measure of end-user acceptance than it is one of developer acceptance. The point I was trying to get across was that non-MS browser developers should co-opt Microsoft's proprietary extensions strategy and use it against them! By supporting all of the MS extras end users wouldn't perceive non-MS browsers as lacking. As a developer I can appreciate the fact that this would take some work. It's not a perfect solution, but the sad fact is Microsoft isn't going to change it's ways and no amount of name calling will change that.
Just trying to think of ways non-MS browsers could turn the MS tide. Does this make any sense?
-Monte Hurd
Systems Architect
Starphire Technologies
Anybody else noticed this? In the olden days of IE 3, the page was rendered as it was loading. While probably slower overall, it meant that I could start reading the email/article/whatever immediately.
Nowadays, all of the browsers I tried seem to want to load the whole page (including most pictures) and display it all at once. That means I'm sitting at a blank page because some adserver somewhere takes 60 seconds to cough up its piece of the pie.
Is there a browser out there that renders as it loads?
Opera has great support for CSS2. Saying that CSS2 is a "hard problem" is nonsense.
Sure, it has bugs, but so has every single other browser. We could always play the "list the bugs" game and I could list Mozilla bugs and you could list Opera bugs, but there wouldn't be any point in that. The simple fact remains that both Mozilla and Opera are superior to MSIE when it comes to CSS (and in most other respects), and rather equal to each other on the CSS front.
Clever signature text goes here.
Oh, sorry, I didn't notice your tiny dick before.
WTH did you install to cause IE to resize jpg and png? It doesn't do that on any of the machines I have, from NT4 IE 5 to WinXP IE 6 if an image is larger than the screen I get scrollbars, vertical and horizontal. IE NEVER resizes images unless it's in a web page that specifies the height/width of the image.
"Our old engine wasn't that bad," Tetzchner said.
Sorry, it is. OK, so it has decent CSS support (Well, CSS1 anyway). However, its DOM support is at least as bad Netscape4's CSS support is. DOM today is what CSS was back in 1998, somewhat used, but not to the extent that it could be, mainly because of legacy browsers.
Also, they compare rewriting the rendering engine to writing Mozilla. Hello, they're producing a non-embeddable, platform-specific web browser. Mozilla.org produced a platform. Take a look at Komodo if you don't believe me. Sorry, but it's apples and oranges.
And this "fastest browser on earth" crap is getting annoying. Anybody can create a fast browser, but both Mozilla and IE can do far more than Opera can, and I can't help but wonder how DOM compliant this new Opera will be. Will it be up to Mozilla's or even IE's capabilities? I doubt it to be honest.
A little Clarification...
-Monte Hurd
Starphire Technologies
It is a feature on IE 6 (maybe just on non-XP boxes?). There is a switch in Preferences to turn it off.
A Little Clarification...
Does'nt it bug you when some dolt puts a banner ad on his pages without the height and width parameters coded? The page can't display until the image arrives because there is no information to tell the browser how much space to allocate. And insult is added to injury when you get a timeout on the download of the bloody ad. Y'unnerstand what I'm saying here?
[FURY ON]
You can't see the bloody page, because the BLOODY AD WON'T LOAD!!
[FURY OFF]
(Pant, pant, pant!)
If there is one feature that is missing in IE or Netscape or 'Zilla that would be a boon to all, the ability to kill the download of some ad, or button graphic would so enchance my web browsing, that I'd . . . I'd . . . Gawd! I'd even pay money for that!! (And I'm of Scottish descent!)
A Little Clarification...
With a T1 connection to internet, IE5 was painfully slow rendering HOTMAIL pages, and often crashing while doing so. After a particularly frustrating session, she started bitching about needing a faster machine... at which point, I showed her the Opera icon on the desktop...
The crashes stopped. Pages appeared in "real time", rather than taking MINUTES to render.
Granted, a 486/66 is an OLD computer. But they serve useful purposes. And, if it weren't for IE, they'd be useful web browsers...
A Little Clarification...
Clever signature text goes here.
No, I don't mean the browser... I mean opera needs a seperate mail program.
I love Opera's browser. The biggest advantages over the other ones have been listed but one thing I haven't seen is that opera has nice PNG support built in. I don't think IE did until recently.
The thing I love about IE is that it's packaged with Outlook Express. In all it's virus/security flawed glory. I love it. It's fast and it's easy to use and the mail filtering is the best I've seen for a windows client.
Eudora just doesn't do it for me. Too slow to fire up and it just doesn't flow as nicely as I'd like. Opera's current mail system isn't too bad, but it's just not as powerful as OE.
The program doesn't necessarily have to be integrated into the browser.
I had a bunch of ideas I sent to opera about an awesome mail client but they never responded.
Another thing I'd LOVE to see is a calendar collaboration tool. Does anything like this exist as an external package that runs sharp and is easy to use? (under windows)
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
I was looking at this the other day for a cross-browser web application which relies on DOM. If you look at this W3C DOM Compatibility Table and run your eyes down the Opera column, you'll see that it supports only a handful of the DOM features listed, and is by far the least DOM-compliant browser. This new version is a much-needed improvement to bring Opera into line with Mozilla, Explorer, and Konqueror.
A Little Clarification...
*sounds of crickets in Redmond*
I thought so.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
Let me summarize:
I'd like to give a shoutout to my imaginary friends, and brag about my non-existent technical skills. Btw, THBT.
gg, son.
Stop trying to make sense, you'll hurt unicron's troll feelings.
Cute, but what's stopping anyone from putting in a bid with the local Board of Education to use open source? People don't learn about new things by osmosis, you know, someone needs to tell them.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
Everyone take a deep breathe. Now exhale. I am not the great satan here guys... ;-)
;-)
Let me clarify...
My comment was taken slighly out of context in the CNET article. I believe in standards and we test against Opera and Mozilla on a continual basis and I'm no MS fan. Let me repeat, I believe in standards 100%.
I was trying to make the point that now that Microsoft has achieved browser market dominance (with proprietary extensions included), strict adherence to standards is EXACTLY what Microsoft hopes non-MS browser developers will pursue as doing so necessarily creates incompatibility with IE. This in turn leaves users with the impression that non-MS browsers are broken or not as advanced when they fail to render pages in the manner IE has led them to expect.
I don't like Microsoft's tactics at all. Period. But unfortunately, at this point in the game, a browser's market penetration is more a measure of end-user acceptance than it is one of developer acceptance. The point I was trying to get across was that non-MS browser developers should co-opt Microsoft's proprietary extensions strategy and use it against them! By supporting all of the MS extras end users wouldn't perceive non-MS browsers as lacking. As a developer I can appreciate the fact that this would take some work. It's not a perfect solution, but the sad fact is Microsoft isn't going to change it's ways and no amount of name calling will change that.
Just trying to think of ways non-MS browsers could turn the MS tide. Does this make any sense?
-Monte Hurd
Systems Architect
Starphire Technologies
Of course it's fast. It doesn't do anything but ;)
html 3.2 or so
I'm getting tired of telling you to go back to AOL, son. You're getting pretty old to be trolling Slashdot.
Hey, it's 7 in the morning, mkay?
I have never heard anyone [say] IE sucks for lack of MDI.
You must not read Slashdot much, all people can talk about is how great tabbed browsing is. Of course most of them are behind the curve, I've been using it since early Opera 4. No one really talked about it much until Mozilla copied the idea from Opera.
As far as Windows users not complaining... If you don't know there is a better alternative out there, you won't really complain much. How many Windows users complain about a lack of multiple desktops? That's because they just don't know the advantages of them.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
Thanks in large part to the WaSP & friends, we've reached a bit of a cease-fire. Everyone's writing browsers to standards, and some people are adding their own little features. As long as Microsoft supports the standards, I don't care how many new features they add. This means that I can markup a page to standards and it works, period. I get goose-bumps just thinking about it.
If a web site uses new proprietory Microsoft features, then they can catch hell from the community. We don't have to get Microsoft to stop making the Kool-Aid, we can settle for getting individual web developers to kick the habit.
Playing follow-the-leader with the richest software company on the planet is a Bad, Bad business model. It's not competing, it's not "turning the tide" - it's a sure-fire recipe for getting buried.
This isn't as much "normalization" as it is "don't take so many drugs when you're designing tables."
1. Tabbed browsing
2. Mouse Gestures
3. Better cookie manager: white-list/black-list for servers/domains instead of keeping a list of every damn site that you have been to.
4. Better popup control
5. Disable referrer logging
6. Quick Preferences
7. Identify as...
Whatever
I'm rather bored by these claims that one has to write for IE. Admittedly, my site is small, and academically orientated, but the following are the stats for August. (1 was a local bot.)
2 2991 21.22% Netscape
Best wishes,3 1628 11.55% Microsoft Internet Explorer
Bob
No mention of Lynx?
I am sorry, but the windows taskbar as a tabbing system does not cut it. If you have used mozilla or opera tabs for even as much as a day then you will know what I mean.
At this very moment I have over fifty web pages open. Can you do that with IE? Without going insane? I didn't think so. I'll tell you how it's done: I have four GNOME desktops, two of which contain three browser windows each, and each browser window contains about ten tabs. I keep all my slashdot pages in one window, all my nytimes pages in another window, etc.
The multiple-desktop to multiple-window to multiple-tab hierarchy allows for, essentially, three levels of tabbing, as opposed to the puny (and for all practical purposes unusable) one level of tabbing that Windows/IE provides. Not only do you get an order of magnitude more open pages, but managing those pages is much simpler too. Whereas Alt-Tab in windows cycles through your browser windows and all your non-browser windows in some random and ever-changing order, the corresponding Ctrl-PgUp/Dn keys in mozilla cycle through your tabs in a much more predictable fashion without your non-browser windows getting in the way.
The tabbing feature in mozilla is not a toy. It's a killer feature, and one that makes me unable to stand using IE for any length of time anymore.
The zooming in Mozilla is text-only, at least it is in version 1.0. On Opera it zooms everything including images. It would be a nice feature to see added to Mozilla.
Best Slashdot comment ever
You can't handle the truth.
I just tried installing it, and the way it's done leaves them almost useless. By default, you do gestures with the left mouse button (which causes all sorts of selection problems)... and when you try to map it to other buttons, you get even worse problems. Middle button will paste things, which will often load an undesired web page after the gesture is finished, and using right button doesn't work at all because the right button immediately brings up a context menu which screws up any chance of a gesture! Worst off, they seemingly won't fix this on Linux at all. (It would seem to me that the best way to handle this would be to have the context menu appear when you stop pressing the button (assuming you made no gesture). This is the way Opera does it.)
The only option they give you is to combine button presses with the ctrl, alt or shift keys to do gestures... but this mostly defeats the purpose of gestures in the first place, since you're supposed to be able to do them with just the mouse.
I had high hopes for this, but unless they fix the problems with it, I find it very disappointing (It also took me quite some time to get the "automatic" installation to actually work properly, as it gave me no end of permission problems)
-"One machine can do the work of fifty ordinary men. No machine can do the work of one extraordinary man." -EH
MDI tabs are just a weak substitute for your window manager's poor handling of many windows. I have used Mozilla (on Windows) with tabbed browsing and it is no better than IE. Why is having a tab of 15 pages on the top of your browser better than having a tab of 15 windows at the bottom of your screen? Windows XP can automatically consolidate your IE windows into a single taskbar item. The list of IE windows is available when you want it, but it does not steal valuable vertical screen real estate all the time like Mozilla's tabs.
cpeterso
If you're being honest, and you actually configured X at the age 8, I have the utmost respect for you.
My only claim to fame like that is successfully installing E when I was about 14. Damn I felt 1337.
Finally, math books without any of that base 6 crap in them.
Come on, really? Who came up with that name.
We all know what it looks like...
I never used Opera much beyond playing until I got my Zaurus. While the thing is pretty much non-configurable, it does work well, and pages look surprisingly great considering how small the screen is. I'm hoping that this new engine will be coming to my little box too.
For example, I don't want IE resizing my damn jpg's and png's to fit the screen every time, yet I have not found a way to turn it off.
Easy: Go to Tools -> Internet Options... -> Advanced and just unmark Multimedia / Enable Automatic Image Resizing
Dillo is faster.
Follow me
I use Mozilla on a 512 MB 1.8 Ghz machine, and also on an older 400 Mhz, 256Mb machine. I don't notice any appreciable difference in page load speeds between the two of them. They are both plenty fast enough, going into that range where I stop caring about the speed (once it's down below 1 second). Mozilla seems to work just fine for me. I'm wondering after reading your post (and many similar ones here) whether my experience is atypical. If I was just reading one post claiming Mozilla is such a dog I'd assume it was just FUD, but *everyone* besides me seems to be having bad experiences with it, and I don't understand what I'm doing differently.
I used Opera as well, but had trouble getting it to interface properly with my java SDK for applets, so I've gone back to Mozilla. As far as speed goes, I consider the two a total wash.
Yes, Opera had MDI first, but since you originally had no choice in the matter and HAD to use MDI, that wasn't an advantage. Mozilla had non-MDI (which many people, myself included, prefer) first. Opera added non-MDI at about the same time Mozilla added tabbed browsing, so again, that's a wash between the two. At about the same time, they both gained the ability to let the user choose which way to make it work.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
"This is a personal preference, of course, but I hate those damn tabs. Also, what happens when the browser crashes? Does it take down all your tabbed sites with it?" "Don't know about the latest Mozilla, but Galeon brings you back to every single of your n tabs. "Because if IE ever trips on shitty scripts (which is rare), it only takes the one instance down when it crashes." Back in the Windows days I remember that it wasn't rare that IE took down not only all it's windows, but also the shell (explorer) and the whole system. No I haven't used XP, I can't aford it money/hardware/mental health wise.
mp3: l33t term for empty.
Tools -> Internet Options... -> Advanced and just unmark Multimedia / Enable Automatic Image Resizing It's so EASY, you could guess it, and so EASY to remember...
mp3: l33t term for empty.
To me, someone who posts without showing their face, is ashamed of themselves and their opinion.
/.'s cookies are still broken, if that is the case I apologize.]
... but i digress, this isn't a point that needs to be made again.
I feel sorry for you, you poor tortured AC.
[I am assuming, of course, that you didn't post AC just because you're running Opera under Linux and
no - really. hahaha.
now then, what wasn't dangerous about users hopping on the web and opening random stray documents in a shell?
cyn, free software and *nix operating systems enthusiast.
... for this nice hint.
I decided to buy Opera some time ago, but things were rough and $40, cheap as it is, is a lot of money over here.
$20 is feasible and, considering how Opera is evolving, actually a great deal.
Thank you very much!
Tickle me embarrassed. I never noticed that before. Thanks.
You hate tabs, I hate pages designed with popups. You have a choice, and thank Galeon I have one too, all your popups go into tabs.
It still would be better if you left ME the choice how to open the picture, but then again, what good would bee web designers if not for forcing their content the way they think it is best...
mp3: l33t term for empty.
... obviously are not a financial math student! ;-P
- that prevents me from using it, is the fact that it doesn't support right-to-left HTML rendering, which has become the standard in Hebrew and Arabic sites (and is supported in IE and Mozilla for years). it does render hebrew text correctly, but renders the page structure in reverse.
hope they fix this sometime soon.
And you can remember all 15 pages right?
With tabs you have one click, with the one taskbar item you have two clicks. I switch a lot, I don't want to do two clicks all the time.
I general windows should be handled by the window manager, BUT browsing is a speciall case with more windows than usuall and they are changing much ofter too.
So who else think's that to BUY a new OS to get a decent window manager is a bit too much?
mp3: l33t term for empty.
And I'd say the same if I was as well informed as you seem to be (thanks for the reminder, BTW -- and thanks to the guy before you, too, who also gave important "catches" of the Microsoft "offer").
My only minor point is, once upon a time, probably until the 50's or so, doing this was not only called a "clever thing" but also called very low, more or less in Uriah Heep-style.
Sometimes I dream of time (which I hope will return) when we don't associate profit with such lame practices, but with an honest use of good marketing.
Yeah, maybe it's an utopia on my part.
Mozilla is fast. It just is. I really don't quite comprehend what is going on with the systems of the people who are complaining about Mozilla's speed. I suspect many of them haven't even really tried it recently. I've been using Mozilla daily on a variety of machines and a variety of operating systems without any speed problems at all for well over a year now. Hell, even my wife doesn't complain and she's much less tolerant of computer problems than I am.
In the last 3 years I've spent copious time on 1Ghz Athlon (Mandrake Linux & Win2000), a 300Mhz Thinkpad 700 (Win2000), and an SGI Octane SSE (250Mhz). Only the athlon would be considered even moderately fast by today's standards. All have adequate amounts of RAM (256M+) but are otherwise unremarkable. Mozilla was/is my daily browser on each of them. And it is fast. Faster than IE 5.5 & 6 and faster than Netscape 4.7. And certainly more than fast enough for daily use. Never mattered what OS I used, at least after about version 0.92. It has and continues to work great.
Except in cases where folks are stuck with a very old machine I don't know what they are complaining about. (Mozilla does take some resources so it's a *bit* much for a P90 with 64M of RAM) Opera has a lighter footprint and no question is a bit faster and if it suits one's needs that's great. But mozilla doesn't have a speed problem that I can see on anything vaguely resembling modern hardware.
Why shoild I check my hardware if it runs PERFECt under GNU/Linux?
Check your damn OS.
mp3: l33t term for empty.
Credit where credit's due. Marc Andreessen invented the tag. However, Microsoft, can lay claim to tag. (in a strange twist, now supported by Mozilla)
That should be Monte GNU/Hurd!
Upgrade price is only $15 USD -- but, heck, you don't qualify as you don't have version 4... :-(
You can buy a new one for $20 USD, though, in their 50% off campaign.
Enjoy!
Now all they need to do is but a candy coating on it to make it look pretty and less intimidating to the average user to use.
You need a FREE iPod Nano
Yeah, I just noticed a couple days ago. There was some blinking text on a NOAA page, and I thought, "Java? JavaScript?" I felt the icy hand of death on my spine when I checked the source and found a blink tag. Man, that's evil.
This isn't as much "normalization" as it is "don't take so many drugs when you're designing tables."
Mozilla does NOT support DOM better than IE. DHTML is faster in IE by a large margin (getting smaller but large nonetheless). Feature-wise they are about equal. Speed-wise there is no real competition.
Posted from Mozilla July 30th nightly build.
- I don't need to go outside, my CRT tan'll do me just fine.
I tried out Opera a few years ago (version 3? 4?), and dropped it because I hated the tabbed browsing. I don't care about application-centric vs. document-centric, but I hate not being able to alt-tab between all my windows.
Maybe I'm getting too old on this stuff, cause I think I understood your nick. :-\ /n
Live long and prosper...
This would be a huge mistake for any competitor. Why would you want to jump into line with MS?
Because a web browser is simply a document viewer. If a web browser can't view certain documents, because they happen to be written in non standard MSHTML, then the web browser is a failure from the users point of view. That's the number one thing users care about is can this view my document or not? If it can't, from the users perspective, it is broken.
The ideal browser should be able to `embrace and extend' nonstandard code - i.e., allow pages written in MSHTML to render properly (even perhaps applying different rendering rules if a document has no DTD, like IE does) but follow the spec for labelled documents in its entirety and as close to the cuttign edge as possible.
"Oh, you want to write a badly written MSHTML website? We'll render that - we need the marketshare to stop IE becoming the only feasable web browser. What's that? You want to use SVG graphics? Then stick to the spec, and we'll render it."
Skipstone uses it, too, IIRC.
But Opera does an excellent job, too.
Dillo is terrific, IMHO it needs just two things: frames and javascript. Then they could as well change its name to Killa (copyright me but I hereby transfer my rights to the Dillo current maintainers and/or authors).
Hello, they're producing a non-embeddable, platform-specific web browser.
Hello. You'll find Opera in more embedded devices than Mozilla will, because its smaller, uses less resources, and uses the existing OSs toolkit rather than requiring its own. Its also almost as cross platform - there's Linux, Windows, MacOS, Solaris, and QNX Opera plus quite a few more.
If you're talking about Mozilla `producing a platform' (ie, XUL) then that's not a feature most users and I imagine embedded developers want or need.
But even then, give a try to "Links -g" (the "links" browser with the graphics option).
Links is available at freshmeat.
Page rendering *is* a problem here.
Opera runs ok.
Mozilla is unusable.
What popups??? Those who live on the web have always used PROXO. As for browser rendering speed, I find the order OPERA/NS_6.x/IE_any to represent significant differences. MOZ_who? Is that like a diaper for Tux? Otherwise, lots of sites screw-with NS & OPERA.
The latest IE versions, if you have "enough" memory by an algorithm that it determines, open each window (not it's children) in a separate process. No, it won't kill explorer.exe.
Aw, fuck it. Let's go bowling. - The Big Lebowski
I'm sorry... I didn't clarify...
I do use opera for my browser and OE for my mail.
Alright. 5 minutes later, I just fired it up and setup two accounts. I think they meant for it be a feature, but I don't like how it creates a new set of mailboxes for each account. I can see how it would be useful, but a lot of the time, the only reason I setup multiple profiles is so I can send mail out as Matt@domain or webmaster@domain, etc. whereas they all go back to the same account.
It let's me nest new mail folders so that's good.
I had a bit of trouble deleting them using the delete key but I was able to drag them to the trash.
The filter seems exceptional, they have an awesome feature OE doesn't that lets you filter off of custom headers. All they need is regex filtering!
Viewing headers is easy, however... I can't highlight them with the mouse (or any other way) to copy them onto the clipboard.
The address book seems pretty decent, other than not being able to nest address books I didn't see any problems.
Mozilla mail does seem to load just as quick as OE. Maybe even quicker!
Thanks for turning me on to it, I might give it a whirl for a while and see how it goes. It might not take too long to wean me off of OE.
If anyone from the Mozilla team is reading, I'd like the ability to attach aliases to each account. So I could have as many @.com as I wanted per one set of mailboxes and just check the master.
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
Excuse me, but the parent post from Shabazz is hardly a troll. He pointed out a massive error on the part of SomeOtherGuy.
SomeOtherGuy has incorrectly read the article and assumed that 'Monte Hurd' is an Opera employee, which is totally incorrect. He then attacks Opera for something they didn't say.
Shabazz's post is insightful.
SomeOtherGuy's post is overrated.
Please moderate as such.
You should try it again, Ctrl-Tab works in my Linux version. I think it always has. (Ctrl-Tab is switch MDI window, Alt-Tab is to switch main application windows)
These keyboard shortcuts have been in place since Windows 3.1 as standard MDI shortcuts. Or did you mean you didn't like Ctrl-Tab inside MDI windows and Alt-Tab between other application windows? If so I guess you have a valid point, but with recent versions of Opera you can switch to non-MDI if you want very easily, it gives you a choice the first time you start up.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
Well sure, but you see, we want images, not just image tags. :)
Dyolf Knip
Here's a clue: it's not his helmet.
Opera is 50% off at this link: http://www.opera.com/order/campaign/ It's $19.99 or $9.99 for students at that link, instead of the usual $39.99 or $19.99 for students. I've been using Opera for months for free and when they offered it to me for half price with one of their banner ads in the toolbar(ads are only in the free version), I actually bought it. I never thought I would pay money for a browser, but it's worth it to me be able to easily toggle things like Flash and Javashit and cookies on and off. I also like surfing the net in full screen mode without any toolbars. I bought this almost two weeks ago and I don't know when the offer ends, but it is still active right now.
Unlike the image renderer in Mozilla, the image renderer in IE 6 doesn't even support alpha-transparent PNG images.
Oddly enough, IE has a renderer that supports alpha transparency in PNGs, they just chose not to have it work automatically. You have to set the image to a transparent gif and then overlay the PNG with some funky directdraw filter. (at least, last time I checked)
I download a 100MB file to a drive with plenty
of space and have it run out of disk space because
it DLs to a temp directory first.
Score 4?
First off, some of what this guy is saying is totally false. Opera IS cross platform. Opera IS ALREADY embedded in more devices than Mozilla.
Also, who is the "they" in the statement, "they compare rewriting the rendering engine to writing Mozilla"? What I read in the article was that, "Tetzchner resisted comparisons to Netscape..."
Of course the other side of the "Mozilla created a platform" argument if they spent less time creating a platform and more time creating a browser... Don't get me wrong, I think what they did is great and very useful (as Komodo proves), but it wasn't absolutely necessary to create a platform to create the browser and the time they spent out of the race benefitted IE greatly. If Mozilla 1.0 had come out 18 months after they started, the browser market would probably be a lot different than it is today.
I would agree that CSS support is decent. I have tested it on CSS test pages and it did well. One of their head guys is on the W3C CSS committee, so go figure. They actually had decent CSS1 support before MS or Netscape supported CSS1 at all, as I recall.
I run across pages that don't render corectly from time to time which may be due to DOM problems, so I'm not saying the old engine was as good as Mozilla is now, but for the majority of my browsing, it has worked well enough.
As to being faster, it certainly loads faster than Mozilla. As other have said here, on older machines where you can really tell the difference, it does run faster than IE or Mozilla. Sorry it annoys you...
I'm not sure what the "Mozilla and IE can do far more than Opera" refers to. Relevant examples? Like I said, I've run into some pages that don't work (usually badly designed shopping cart pages), but most things work fine.
As for the last statement in your post, all I can say is that conjecture based on nothing doesn't really contribute anything meaningful to the discussion.
I'd be interested to see what browsers everyone actually uses... I use a combo of IE and Opera.. Just had a few issues with Opera which necessitates the use of IE.. Future poll topic..?
MOS-13E ( thirteen - echo ) Cannon Fire Direction Specialist
Is that what you're talking about?
Rangers Lead the Way!
Then let me explain:
Mac OS X has a serious problem with text layout (the NSLayoutManager class and friends).
I myself is currently writing a browser, and I have a 740 KB test page. If I use NSLayoutManager to obtain the text dimensions then it takes 20 seconds to layout this page (on my 733 MHz G4) -- if I instead use some cached glyphs (which is needed if I want to bypass NSLayoutManager) and NSFont's positionOfGlyph:precededBy: then I can cut down the time to around a seconds.
Unfortunately caching glyphs is not really a good solution because I'll then miss ligatures and other features of Mac OS X (not to mention that there is not really any well documented way to obtain the glyphs in the first place -- ATS is completely undocumented).
However, I believe that Opera use Carbon, which would not be using NSLayoutManager (but maybe it use ATSUI, which again rely on ATS, which should be the system NSLayoutManager use) -- and Opera spend 50 seconds on the page in question (OmniWeb takes almost 2 minutes, IE & MZ both take 12 seconds).
The sad thing is, my 40 MHz Amiga can parse, layout and render the same page in 8 seconds.
I do use a 64 MB and windows 95 PC but with a fast internet connection. I did try an upgrade to opera 6 and i went back to opera 5. Version 6 was too memory hungry for me.
/. .
The biggest problem with opera(5.12) is that it sometimes uses too much "system" resources. an example for this is when i get moderator access at
But i am worried that there are no more security updates for opera 5.x
If you're using Mozilla or a browser that supports user css files, you can disable blink tags for all sites. Wahoo!
Create a file usercontent.css in your profiles chrome directory (something like C:\WINDOWS\Application Data\Mozilla\Profiles\default\f0saup39.slt\chrome on windows).
In said file put
blink {text-decoration: inherit !important;}
and your blinking will cease forever.
For more examples of the fun things you can do with user css, see the css anarchist.
The CSS Anarchist's Cookbook
The CSS Anarchist Strikes Again!
Cheers,
Roger
Do you have any better hostages?
Ofcourse it's slashdot-think. MS is bad. IE sucks. Windows crashes, LOL. This is what you MUST think before you can be accepted here.
Just wanna mention that you can do this in Opera, too.
Oh, and Opera (and IIRC Mozilla) comes with a nice download manager - why doesn't IE have one?
I started using Moz 1 on my Win98 P2-350 a few weeks ago. In many ways, it's nicer than IE (particularly in the various content types it lets you block selectively) but the fact that that damned splash screen pops up for more than ten seconds every time I load is enough to keep IE sitting on my quick launch toolbar right next to Moz. If I want to look up a single thing quickly, I've often got the answer from IE before Moz would even have loaded.
Now, if the new version of Opera manages to keep the small footprint and high performance that it's famous for, while also having the useful features I can get in Moz but not IE, then hell yes, I'll pay them money for it.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
"I.E. user: The compatibility with today's plugins and scripting languages is unparalled.
Mozilla/Opera user: We have pop-up killing!
I.E. user: The image renderer is awesome."
Mozilla/Opera user: We have the ability to open a blank page by default AND designate a home page.
I.E. user: Not to mention that while an open standard is best, you will find most webpages catered to users running I.E.
Mozilla/Opera user: We have the ability to open a new page without the current page having to reload in the new window.
We also have tabs (awesome advance in browsing - I currently have 10 tabs open - if I was using IE, I wouldn't be able to see any of the items in my taskbar). Tabs rule.
Also, while the margin is much closer on a really fast machine (like the Athlon 2100+ I'm on now), Mozilla (and Opera) are still faster than IE. It really shows itself on older hardware (like the machine I upgraded from). The only thing faster about IE is that it launches faster. Remove that (nigh-unfair) advantage and IE loses in the speed arena all around.
Speaking as someone who helps run several small web sites, I don't see any justification for claiming that browsers have not advanced since generation 4. For a start, I now write most of those sites using XML, and run a script using XSLT to turn them into HTML/CSS for download. Today's browsers support far more of CSS far better than anything in generation 4 ever did. Several of them support the XML/XSLT natively as well, although for portability reasons we only use that internally for now. These advances alone are enough to put today's tools far ahead of the late 90's models when it comes to producing and updating web content.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Sorry, but I think you're wrong on all counts. If you're developing a commercial web site, you develop it using the most cost-effective techniques. That means you make sure it works for most people in your target audience first, and if it's too expensive to support the few exceptions, you don't bother. This is simply good business sense.
Right about now, well over 90% of hits on most commercial web sites are from people using a recent version of IE. Those using alternatives such as Mozilla, Opera or whatever number a few percent each, if that, yet to support these things properly (including all the overheads of testing all your development on each platform, etc) costs a lot. For many web sites, that spending simply will not give a good ROI and thus is not justified.
You may not like the fact that people write IE-specific web pages, but that is the de facto standard, and for now it is a far more important one than anything the W3C produces. Yes, it's a vicious circle, since no-one will move away from MS as long as they have the market share and they'll keep the market share until people move away, but that's life. If you're running a commercial web site, you work with the way things are, not the way you'd like them to be.
Quite rightly, the only way this situation is going to change any time soon is if someone demonstrates that the "standards" are actually more useful. To do that, they need to produce a superior alternative browser to IE that also does a good job with "IE-specific" extensions. That browser would have a chance of gaining market acceptance, and if it could do more using the W3C standards than using MS techniques, people would start to realise that and move towards them. But in the meantime, there's no point coding for a standard that most people don't follow on purely ethical grounds, if you're in business trying to make money (which most IE-specific web sites are).
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Well, I've said this before, but you're not quite right there. Certain "features" are added/removed depending on the setting of the "Identify as..." feature. For example if you choose "Identify as MSIE 5.0", calls to the JavaScript object document.all will be successful. If you choose "Identify as Opera", the same calls will fail. It's explained in detail here.
Nope. Outlook Express has certainly been vulnerable to an embarrassing number of exploits, but it's a distant #2 to Outlook itself. Despite the similar names (that's a rant for another day) they're completely different programs.
Slashdot - News for Herds. Stuff that Splatters.
That's part of the spoofing. It's intended to trick scripts that check for "document.all" and/or UA string. Emulating IE takes a bit more than supporting a couple of proprietary extensions for spoofing purposes.
Clever signature text goes here.
Thanks for the tip. I'd thought about setting up my own style sheet, but I kind of like seeing s. I've only seen one in about a year browsing with Mozilla, and now it's cool to see how little the tag is actually used. Maybe if people start using it again I'll have to disable it; right now it's like a window into a forgotten world.
This isn't as much "normalization" as it is "don't take so many drugs when you're designing tables."
Yeah, you're right - I don't think I ever saw it even before I disabled it. The css anarchist stuff can be fun though :)
Do you have any better hostages?
Sorry. links -g is faster than opera. (-g means graphical mode, yes the text browser renders graphics and tables and all that stuff just fine, even does an limited amount of javascript.)
I don't know where they get off claiming it's the fastest browser when there are at least two faster than it. (the Photon browser "voyager" is also faster than opera)
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
There are two ways to kill banner ads in Mozilla. First, right-click on the image and select "Block images from this server". (Make sure it's an ad-only server -- check the Properties first.) Do this for ad.doubleclick.net, etc., and the prime ad sites will never bother you again.
Second, to catch the rest, download the BannerBlind add-on:
http://bannerblind.mozdev.org/
BannerBlind blocks ad images on the basis of their sizes, which are fairly standardized.
That was what, like, last week?
I'm gonna go ahead and raise the bull crap flag on your claim of installing linux at age 8.
Ummmm... It looks like your sarcasm is implying that it's hard to find that option, which makes you a total idiot. If you couldn't find that option, how the HELL do you plan on recompiling a linux kernel?
The point is, Mozilla doesn't need any steenking add-ons. It's got it all to begin with.
Post brought to you by Mozilla 1.0.
I think you actually meant to say "your," not "you are."
On a modem Opera is tremendously faster than IE if used properly. Image loading should be turned to "Show cached images only". Links should be opened in the background when possible: "shift-ctrl-click". Images should be loaded only when necessary: "shift-g" for one page, or "g" to change the image loading for a window if there's a lot of graphical text etc. Popups should normally be left off.
With Opera configured this way, most web sites are twice as fast as on a regular browser that loads images. Navigation images can be loaded just once if desired and will be displayed from then on. (Opera seems to cache more effectively than IE.) And with background loading you can easily avoid ever sitting and waiting for the browser.
IE can toggle image display but only by going through a graphical dialog. There's nothing like Opera's "cached only" which is usually just right. And though IE does have window spawning, it doesn't work as well as Opera's. For example there's no such thing as background spawning; spawned windows do not open full screen; and there's no SDI option, which I prefer.
Well, XP is like this: It's like Linux in that it doesn't crash, and it's like Windows in that it doesn't suck. I think that's as good an explanation as any.
Wow, you effectively repeated yourself! You must be quite insecure, almost ranting as you panic to think perhaps there is a better, faster browser than the Mozilla shithole you enjoy toting around as some great browser. If you use Opera, though, cheers. I quite like the browser.
These keyboard shortcuts have been in place since Windows 3.1 as standard MDI shortcuts.
I would like to know how you found this information, because never in my 9 years of Windows experience have I seen anything referencing Ctrl-tabbing between MDI windows.
Y2K Compliant since the late 1890s
You really should have done a quick google search.
K B; EN-US;q126449&
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=
ALT+- (ALT+hyphen): Displays the Multiple Document Interface (MDI) child window's System menu (from the MDI child window's System menu, you can restore, move, resize, minimize, maximize, or close the child window)
CTRL+TAB: Switch to the next child window of a Multiple Document Interface (MDI) program
They say that article applies back to Win 95, but I assure you, the shortcut was there in Win 3.1. Next time you are on a Win 95 box, run WINFILE.EXE or whatever Win 3.1 File Manager was named and try it.
The reason I know is because I used to develop in VB on Windows 3.1. Nothing serious, just playing around and making some crappy shareware, but I did learn a few things.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
Perhaps I could do a google search, but that would be unnecessary, as the concept of *-Tabbing between MDI windows isn't something I considered a possibility until I read the post.
My point is that I found out about Alt-Tab without having to look it up anywhere (I'm fairly sure a I have a Win3.1 app somewhere out there to thank) whereas I've never seen any mention in any app about Ctrl-Tab.
Y2K Compliant since the late 1890s
Oh... Yeah it isn't often mentioned. I'm not totally sure where I first saw it, it may have been when programming in VB, or from the book Supercharging Windows, which was a great book at the time for 3.1.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
I bought opera for linux two days ago and am very happy with the result, I've been an opera user for the last 5 years and they just keep getting better.
/* FUCK - The F-word is here so that you can grep for it */
Also, what happens when the browser crashes? Does it take down all your tabbed sites with it?
As an Opera user I can say: Yes, it does take every tab with it, but when you restart the browser, it will ask do you want to continue browsing from where you were before the crash.
Please stick with your 15 inch black and white TV and your Vic-20. There is nothing to be had for you.
I will continue to use opera on my bleeding edge ultra fast computer, and enjoy my surfing more.
Opera probably won't like this, but I just cover up the banner add with my Accessories Clock. If you keep the clock in digital (rather than analog), and make your clock "always on top," you can "stretch" the clock so as to exactly cover the entire banner during the whole of your session.
Ctrl-Tab is documented in the 'window control' section of the keyboard help for Opera (^B).
Also: If you buy Opera, you get Mulberry half price. If you buy Mulberry, you get Opera half price.
If you want both, make sure you buy them in the right order.
Another thing I forgot, if you bought Opera 4, you got 6 at a discount, student or not. I didn't even take the student discount when I bought 6, because of this. I remembered since the first message I posted because I finally decided to dig up my registration email to disable the banner ads.
I had reinstalled Linux because my file system ate itself. I deserved it though, I was going back and forth between ext2/3 kernels, and the times I booted in ext2, the init scripts thought I was still runnning ext3, so they didn't force checks on unclean shutdowns. Word to the wise, if you go ext3, stay ext3, or be very very careful not to miss an unclean shutdown.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.