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Should We Change the Weather Even If We Can?

jonerik writes "According to this article in today's Christian Science Monitor, science will be able to make significant changes in weather systems in the next few decades. More than simply seeding clouds to produce rain, the technology will be available to nudge hurricanes out of the path of population centers, for instance. The big question is 'Should we?' 'Even if we can do this, is this something we really want to do?,' says Dr. Ross Hoffman, a vice president with Atmospheric and Environmental Research, Inc., who adds, 'Before we can really control weather, we have to be able to observe the weather and forecast the weather much better than we do now.' On the other hand, according to the article the genie may already be out of the bottle: 'According to the United Nations' World Meteorological Organization (WMO), at least 25 countries are engaged in weather modification projects to enhance rain and snowfall, or suppress hail. In the United States, 12 states have had weather modification programs. Texas runs a program at the county level for rain enhancement, while North Dakota is focusing on hail suppression.'"

422 comments

  1. Only... by craenor · · Score: 2

    If you can make it rain on my bosses house.

  2. we alread have by bigskinnee · · Score: 3, Insightful

    We already have changed the weather by all the polution we produce. So why not.

    Maybe we can change it for the better.

    1. Re:we alread have by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      lamo, like volcanos havent changed the weather. Ever heard of the ice age. Why are people so agrogant that they believe that we are more powerfully than nature

    2. Re:we alread have by Malcolm+Scott · · Score: 2, Insightful
      We already have changed the weather by all the polution we produce. So why not.

      Maybe we can change it for the better.

      Weather or climate? Pollution has had a vast effect on the climates of the world - i.e. long-term weather and temperature patterns. A short-term change of the weather is unlikely to be able to repair our damaged climate.

    3. Re:we alread have by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > We already have changed the weather by all the polution we produce. So why not.

      I thought global warming was a THEORY?

    4. Re:we alread have by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Americans are the only country in the world that are so ignorant that they believe that Global Warming is a Theory. Even though they ARE the largest C02 producing country in the world. They have largly ignored Kyoto and again show the world that they are ONLY concerned with American Oil Interests.

    5. Re:we alread have by the_2nd_coming · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      ummm.....dude....I guess Europeans are stupid enough to not know the diffrence between a theory and a law.

      it IS a scientific theory....what else are you gonna call it, you know something that science doesn't that you can be 100% sure?

      --



      I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
    6. Re:we alread have by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your right. It is a Theory. However there is signifigant evidence that co2 emissions are causing Global Warming. If you try to argue with that you Sir are stupid enough to acctually believe the Propaganda and hype that the Bush administration is generating. Do you have any proof that says for 100% that Co2 does not cause global warming? Do you personally believe that global warming is not affected by Co2 levels?

    7. Re:we alread have by Alyeska · · Score: 3, Funny
      I thought global warming was a THEORY?

      Here in Alaska, it's a GOAL.

      (And if the ultra-mild winters of late are any indication, we seem to be achieving it....)

    8. Re:we alread have by the_2nd_coming · · Score: 1

      who is arguing? I intervened because of the implicit claim that global warming was a known truth when it is not, it is a scientific theory

      --



      I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
    9. Re:we alread have by hackwrench · · Score: 1

      Why are people so agrogant that they believe that we are more powerfully than nature

      What are you a Luddite. Pretty much all of human activity can be said to modify nature.

      *Gasp* Making wood pulp lie in flat sheets, or burning it instead of on trees or lying on the ground, or letting lightning strike it, is an act against nature.

      Oh, please.

    10. Re:we alread have by shokk · · Score: 1

      You could destroy every plant and animal on this planet and a billion years later (a wink in universal time) it would all be well on its way to a fresh start. And maybe without monster asteroids hitting, the monkeys won't come out on top this time.

      --
      "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."
    11. Re:we alread have by darxyde · · Score: 0

      > Maybe we can change it for the better.

      The probability is minute.

      Edward Lorenz gave us his strange attractor as long ago as the 1960's, and subsequent work towards describing 'sensitive dependence on initial conditions' point towards a total inability to predict meteorological outcomes over even small timeframes.

      I don't know of any technologies which embody the prescient knowledge required even to monitor such a thing as the weather, let alone provide accurate extrapolations towards manipulation of that end.

      In a typically foolhardy fashion, the worlds leaders and scientists deem it more economical to take the risk (what a risk!) and attempt to change the weather, rather than make attempts towards cleaning up their act.

      You'd think people would learn. But then again, humanity has never been known for its wisdom....

      --
      Hey relax fella, you need a rest, guy.
    12. Re:we alread have by langed · · Score: 2, Informative
      Indeed, we already have.

      HAARP is an endeavor by the US gov't to attempt to tweak the ionosphere by the way of something akin to a huge electromagnet, near the North Pole.It's a wonder they haven't downed Santa's sleigh! :)

      Seriously, though, this is one project that has been accused of causing El Nino.

      For you who haven't followed my links, HAARP stands for High-Frequency Active Auroral Research Program, and is run by the Naval Research Laborarory.

      As you've seen from my links, there are many zealots who would claim that HAARP causes weather disturbances. The Official HAARP FAQ, though, claims quite the contrary.

      Personally, I tend to take the side of the zealots; the US gov't is well-known to hide issues of widespread importance and, in many cases, outright mislead its citizens. Hence my opening statement.

    13. Re:we alread have by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only the truly lazy would put feverishly believe in a THEORY and tell others to "prove them wrong"...

      The truth is, the same freaky "doomsday" types were fortelling the coming ice age back in the 70's (whom we all laugh at now). We'll be laughing at global warming in the same sense 20 years from now.

      CO2 is a greenhouse gas. The question to you is... How much do we need to make any difference? In 1980, Mt St Helens spewed more CO2 than all the motor vehicles ever created... That tells me that humanity's CO2 contributions are MINOR in the scale of things (like a flea on an Elephant's ass).

      The real issue is that some people feel the need to STOP others from doing things... I.E. City dwellers don't want cars, because in the city they're too much to deal with, and you have adequate "public" transportation (which, by the way, tends to be subsidized by those "evil" people who drive cars).

      The whole Kyoto treaty is a joke. Seems most developing nations (including CHINA and RUSSIA) are exempt. Seems like a good way to try to get America to conform to other nations will. Oh.. by the way, how good did RUSSIA (under communism) handle the environment?

      Newsflash JERK: I don't want to live in a concrete jungle like you. Go eat your tofu and ruin your own life, not mine.

    14. Re:we alread have by Trolling4Dollars · · Score: 0, Troll

      Not all Americans think that way. I, as a REAL American who believes in the principles this country used to have, hate our fucking stupidass monkey president. If that fuck wins again, I'm leaving. Canada here I come... Canadians seem pretty decent. Not like all the stupid SUV driving, gun enthusiast, ill-mannered, "me first" fucks that call themselves Americans. This country is going down the toilet...

    15. Re:we alread have by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      sayonara

      asshat.

    16. Re:we alread have by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The "global warming" hoopla is being pushed by the enemies of Western Civilization and (especially) the United States.

      Read the actual scientific reports sometime (not the "summaries", "interpretations" or the fuckheaded account in the popular press). There's so much ass-covering going on that you wouldn't believe it.

    17. Re:we alread have by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Personally, I tend to take the side of the zealots; the US gov't is well-known to hide issues of widespread importance and, in many cases, outright mislead its citizens.

      Personally, I think it's a conspiracy by the Reynolds Wrap people to sell more aluminum foil for people like you to make hats from.

    18. Re:we alread have by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stay out of my country.Canada already has enough asshole americans living in it because it IS better on the other side of the fence. Stay there and sleep in the bed you've made.

    19. Re:we alread have by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Many small ones make a really large ones. Ever considered how man tons of methane would be released in the atmosphere if every human on this planet would fart at the same time?

    20. Re:we alread have by IXI · · Score: 1

      What is better? Totally depends on who you ask.

      --
      He saw some dirty arabs and fired. Too bad it was just some friendly kurds, BBC reporters and his fellow cowboys.
  3. could this be... by gol64738 · · Score: 2

    could this perhaps explain the strange pattern striping in the sky i see so often in the california mountains?

    1. Re:could this be... by Alyeska · · Score: 2, Funny
      could this perhaps explain the strange pattern striping in the sky i see so often in the california mountains?

      That's usually less attributable to CO2, moreso to LSD.

    2. Re:could this be... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you talking about airplane exhaust?

    3. Re:could this be... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They are chem trails that your government is dumping on you. They want you to all die a long slow death, to make things easy for the new world order. Man I so very very lucky to not live in the states. Remember, knowledge is freedom.

      http://www.educate-yourself.org Set yourself free!

    4. Re:could this be... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If it looks like this
      it's called a wave bar. You often see several of
      them in parallel. They are caused by atmospheric
      oscillations downwind of an obstacle such as a
      mountain ridge.

  4. Reminds me of a joke... by kenthorvath · · Score: 3, Funny
    Although he was a qualified meteorologist, Hopkins ran up a terrible record of forecasting for the TV news program. He became something of a local joke when a newspaper began keeping a record of his predictions and showed that he'd been wrong almost three hundred times in a single year. That kind of notoriety was enough to get him fired. He moved to another part of the country and applied for a similar job. One blank on the job application called for the reason for leaving his previous position. Hopkins wrote, "The climate didn't agree with me."

    Waka waka waka!

    1. Re:Reminds me of a joke... by IsmoVuorinen · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Good joke :) I needed that too.

      --
      When you pull the pin out from Mr. Granade he's no longer your friend.
  5. Do we understand enough? by www.sorehands.com · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Before making any changes, we should know what we are doing and all the ramifications. Then once we know that, we should then consider if we should change.


    Given the protections for natural habitats and that people are hit with large fines for plowing fields because that impacts wetland noone legally can change weather. That is if it is though through.

    1. Re:Do we understand enough? by Malcontent · · Score: 5, Insightful

      " Before making any changes, we should know what we are doing and all the ramifications"

      It will take many decades before we know what the ramifications are. Weather is an enourmously complex system. I doubt the people who stand to profit from weather modification will willingly wait one year let alone decades.

      As usual the extent of peoples concern for the rest of mankind and the future is but a shadow of their love of money.

      --

      War is necrophilia.

    2. Re:Do we understand enough? by darthBear · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Weather is actually a chaotic system as Edward Lorenz discoverd in the 1960s. Small changes to the inital conditions of the system very quickly result in massive differences in behavior. An often (perhaps over) cited analogy is the butterfly effect in which the flapping of a single butterfly's wings in Japan causes a storm in Alaska.

      What this means is that the ramifications will never be known. We cannot measure the weather precisely enough to make meaningful long term predictions nor can we control our actions precisely enough such that their effects can be known.

      See this or this for more information on chaos.

    3. Re:Do we understand enough? by Optical+Voodoo+Man · · Score: 1
      I think as soon as we can accurately predict the weather the day after tomorrow I'll be OK with them changing the weather. We don't even understand enough to do that, so how could we possibly think about tampering with the Earth's weather systems?

      Until you can accurately predict what the weather should have been, it will be impossible to say that what someone did made things worse. Now suing weathermen for inaccurate forecasts: there's a lawsuit I want a piece of!

    4. Re:Do we understand enough? by outsider007 · · Score: 4, Funny

      An often (perhaps over) cited analogy is the butterfly effect in which the flapping of a single butterfly's wings in Japan causes a storm in Alaska.

      Sounds like a big problem. Maybe we should kill all the butterflies in Japan.

      --
      If you mod me down the terrorists will have won
    5. Re:Do we understand enough? by CVaneg · · Score: 2, Funny

      Frankly I don't know that we have a choice. Until Orbital Death Ray and Mind Control technology catch up, how are we supposed to execute our fiendish plans?

    6. Re:Do we understand enough? by edrugtrader · · Score: 2, Informative

      i just farted, hopefully it will rain on you.

      Scientists,
      as a wisconsinite, please do something to make it warmer, and stop listening to these cloud huggers.

      --
      MARIJUANA, SHROOMS, X: ONLINE?! - E
    7. Re:Do we understand enough? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'll tell you that short of a complete and simultanious nuclear exchange... we cant hurt this planet one tiny bit. we can make it unhabitable for the current life forms but the planet will happily continue along.

    8. Re:Do we understand enough? by Guppy06 · · Score: 2, Troll

      "I doubt the people who stand to profit from weather modification will willingly wait one year let alone decades."

      "As usual the extent of peoples concern for the rest of mankind and the future is but a shadow of their love of money."

      I like how you assume that the profit made is solely monetary, let alone that the only profiteers are faceless, souless corporations (yadda yadda yadda).

      I as a member from the general public would "profit" greatly from, say, not having to worry about category 5 hurricanes bearing down on my ass and flooding me out of my home (if not outright killing me). The same goes for tornadoes, lightning storms, hailstorms, blizzards...

      But if the first and only thing you're able to think about is money, you should be worrying about yourself instead of those "evil corporations" you resemble so well.

    9. Re:Do we understand enough? by MrLint · · Score: 1

      I think that before we should even consider trying to *change* the weather we should be havign at least a 99.99% prediction rate. If we cant predict the current weather adding another (several million) variables into the equation, borders on insanity.

    10. Re:Do we understand enough? by Melantha_Bacchae · · Score: 3, Funny

      outsider007 wrote:

      > Sounds like a big problem. Maybe we should kill
      > all the butterflies in Japan.

      Not a good idea. You would likely incur the wrath of a certain moth in Japan. When she flaps her wings, she topples towers and creates supertyphoons.

      And if you think Mothra can rain on your parade, you should have seen the temper fit her dark twin Battra threw after an early attempt at controlling the weather!

      "Mothra, you are Life Eternal! Hear the prayers of your servants. Come back to us from out of the legend. Come and save us with your power of Life!"
      US release of "Mothra", 1962

    11. Re:Do we understand enough? by randmairs · · Score: 1

      In South Dakota, a weather modification project was blamed by locals for causing a flood that claimed 275 lives. The meteorological upshot of the whole thing was that an east wind rose up over a stationary front and dumped 16 inches of rain on the center of the Black Hills. Needless to say the resultant flash flood killed a lot of people living along Rapid Creek. The project leaders say that the project was not to blame (and rightly so) but you couldn't convince some of the locals of that.

      Seeding of clouds is a very localized phenomena. IF you get the seed into a cloud at the right place at the right time, you can decrease hail size OR you can increase rain fall by 10 to maybe 15%. There is a lot of luck, timing, and skill involved.

      The main hypothesis of the article has been around for decades. The upshot is that the delivery of enough seed at the right time has to be massive and continuous in order to affect large scale systems. Even the USA does not have those types of resources. If we did, and in the end, it might not make a difference.

      Also remember you can get more blood out of a turnip that rain out of a clear sky!!

    12. Re:Do we understand enough? by Cadrach · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, here's another alternative: instead of clumsily (as the attempt would no doubt be, at least at first) trying to change weather to prevent floods or hurricanes, simply stop building in the path of floods and hurricanes. True, this means that more land would need to be left wild. This is a good thing (oh, and I plan on having 0, 1, or at most 2 children, so I'm not part of the population problem).

      --
      Faith may be defined briefly as an illogical belief in the occurrence of the improbable. --H.L. Mencken
    13. Re:Do we understand enough? by hackwrench · · Score: 1

      I can predict with near 100% certainty that the temprature will be between -100 and 100 degrees celsius on this planet. That good enough for you.

      Hate the ludditeism, love the luddite.

    14. Re:Do we understand enough? by tshak · · Score: 2

      I as a member from the general public would "profit" greatly from, say, not having to worry about category 5 hurricanes bearing down on my ass and flooding me out of my home

      Either build a house that can withstand the wheather of your region or move. I've never been in a hurricane, tornado, or a flood. It's much easier to move to a more inhabitable place then to screw with the weather when we will probably never understand the ramifications of it.

      --

      There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
    15. Re:Do we understand enough? by BorgCopyeditor · · Score: 1
      I as a member from the general public would "profit" greatly from, say, not having to worry about category 5 hurricanes bearing down on my ass and flooding me out of my home (if not outright killing me). The same goes for tornadoes, lightning storms, hailstorms, blizzards...

      No reasonable person would think that the outcome, as you describe it, is not desirable. The problem is that you could well be leaving out the part where other people might have to pay for your marginal increase in safety. And that's not something either of us really know much about, now is it?

      --
      Shop as usual. And avoid panic buying.
    16. Re:Do we understand enough? by Malcontent · · Score: 2

      "I like how you assume that the profit made is solely monetary, let alone that the only profiteers are faceless, souless corporations (yadda yadda yadda)."

      Mmmm that's interesting. What an insane assumption to make considering how few words I used in the first place.

      "I as a member from the general public would "profit" greatly from, say, not having to worry about category 5 hurricanes bearing down on my ass and flooding me out of my home (if not outright killing me). The same goes for tornadoes, lightning storms, hailstorms, blizzards..."

      Even if it means those tornadoes are diverted and kill other people? What if saving you worry has enormous consequences for the environment, for the future, for animals and plants?

      How is it that you are so convinced that diverting storms so you "don't have to worry" will have no consequences for anybody else?

      "But if the first and only thing you're able to think about is money, you should be worrying about yourself instead of those "evil corporations" you resemble so well."

      Because I recognize the power of the profit motive that does not mean that money is the first and only thing I worry about. As for comparing me to an "evil corporation" there you are way off. First of all a corporation is a soul-less immortal being. I on the other hand am a Human Being which makes me both mortal and endowed by my creator with a soul. I don't see how any logical creature could confuse beings with souls and beings without souls. Perhaps you should pick up a bible or a talmud or a quran or something and see what it says about immortal soul-less beings. It might be a good place to start. While you are reading that book you might also want to look at what it says about the love of money. Who knows maybe it contains some bit of wisdom.

      --

      War is necrophilia.

    17. Re:Do we understand enough? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      move south you gaseous polar bear fucker

    18. Re:Do we understand enough? by Kragg · · Score: 2

      I still think the point stands, even if it has a broader target than corporations.

      You stand to profit by not dying/having to move/etc. Are you willing to wait one year let alone decades for that hurricane protection? Or shall we take our chances and observe and learn from what happens on the way?

      --
      If you can't see this, click here to enable sigs.
    19. Re:Do we understand enough? by kien · · Score: 1

      Yours is a clueful perspective, darthBear. It would be hazardous and irresponsible to modify weather patterns without a full understanding of how those patterns function. Modeling in supercomputers has helped us understand the atmospheric physics involved with systems of mesocyclones (tornadoes, hurricanes, thunderstorms) but I have yet to see evidence that we're able to model the formation of these systems on a global scale.

      I was fortunate enough to experience the evolution of a weather station from standard FPS-77 rader to NexRAD (aka Doppler) while I was in the military. The difference was night and day. With Radar, we could observe phenomenon such as LEWPs (Line Echo Wave Patterns) and even (sometimes) hook echo signatures...but only after they had formed (which was usually too late). With Doppler, we could observe these phenomenon as they formed which gave us much more lead time to issue watches/warnings for our airfield.

      If we were able to implement this technology worldwide and combine it with supercomputer modeling that is able to account for local climatology on a very granular level, perhaps we would be able to safely and accurately control the weather. Until we develop this technology, however, I believe that any endeavour of this nature is equivalent to playing with fire.

      --K.

      --
      Sig: Bad people happen. Try to avoid being one of them.
    20. Re:Do we understand enough? by Bob+McCown · · Score: 1

      Your puny Mind Control satelites won't be able to penetrate my aluminum foil deflector beanie. BWHAHAHHAA! I'm safe!

    21. Re:Do we understand enough? by john82 · · Score: 1

      ...simply stop building in the path of floods and hurricanes.

      I'll be sure to tell my folks that. Their house was right in the path of hurricane Fran a couple of years ago. That would be in the middle of f*cking North Carolina. Sure as hell not a coastal town.

      Next thing we know you'll suggest that folks shouldn't build ANYWHERE in the state of Florida. And while we're at it, don't build in Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska or Missouri because you might be in the path of sizable tornado.

      Point is, your suggestion is not that bloody simple. Certainly, folks who build withing 10 miles of the shore on the Gulf or Mid-Atlantic coasts have to expect consequences. But storms aren't isolated to those areas.

    22. Re:Do we understand enough? by sjames · · Score: 2

      I as a member from the general public would "profit" greatly from, say, not having to worry about category 5 hurricanes bearing down on my ass and flooding me out of my home

      Will you feel the same if the company contracts with another area to save them from a category 3 hurricane 'with perfect safety, the method is foolproof' and as a result, you get to experiance the newly classified category 6 hurricane when they goof?

      That's the problem, faceless corperations have a habit of telling people that they can benefit from their services risk free when they're not actually sure that's true.

    23. Re:Do we understand enough? by WatertonMan · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Edward Lorenz' "butterfly effect" analogy is vastly overstated. First off while this effect does happen in certain nonlinear systems, to assume that this is what is going on in the weather everywhere is in lack of a proof. While this may have been true in the models being used at the time, the fact that the models were chaotic doesn't imply that real weather is. I half suspect that the reason the butterfly effect was pushed so much was to explain why all those models condradicted one an other as as much as a real guess about the nature of weather.

      Don't get me wrong. I'm not opposed to applying chaos theory to weather. And in some situations it probably fits. However most of us who did physics studied lots of systems that stabilized or didn't behave chaotically. Even some chaotic "systems" had a range where they weren't chaotic. (Using the term system and range or starting point loosely)

      I don't have the article handy, but New Scientist had an article a few months ago that compared the predictions of nonlinear behavior with measurement of how the weather corresponded to models. The article strongly argued that the problem was poor models and not chaos. The following is a similar paper.

      It's very nice to say that some problems are in principle "unknowable." However, as I said, that is sometimes a crutch of late in science. Hard isn't undoable.

    24. Re:Do we understand enough? by WatertonMan · · Score: 3, Informative
      Here's a better paper related to the two above. It goes a little more in depth and gives some of the graphs I vaguely remembered.

      http://www.copernicus.org/EGU/npg/8/npg8/357.pdf Quoting from the conclusion: While the effects of chaos eventually lead to loss of predictability, this may happen only over long time scales. Exponential-on-average error growth does not necessarily imply rapid error growth. In the short term it is model error which dominates, and which must be considered in any scheme of quality control.

    25. Re:Do we understand enough? by Guppy06 · · Score: 2

      "Well, here's another alternative: instead of clumsily (as the attempt would no doubt be, at least at first) trying to change weather to prevent floods or hurricanes, simply stop building in the path of floods and hurricanes."

      Nice idea. Except for the bit where, for the Atlantic and Gulf coasts of the US, you're around 400 years too late (give or take a century). And that's just North America

      And why does around half the population of the US live in this area? Why do most of the planet's population live within a few hundred miles of the nearest coast? Might have something to do with the transportation and trade hubs port cities tend to be. The further away you live from the ocean, the further away you live from ready contact with the outside world (ie. civilization).

      "True, this means that more land would need to be left wild."

      No, it wouldn't. You're advocating moving more people into the relatively unpopulated interior of the continents. But the coastal cities aren't going anywhere because those people will still need access to the oceans. So you'll end up with less land "left wild."

    26. Re:Do we understand enough? by Cuthalion · · Score: 1

      That said, by changing the weather the way we want in the short term, we change unpredictable weather from one unknown outcome to another. There's no reason to think that the altered future weather patterns are any way more likely to be worse, just different.

      --
      Trees can't go dancing
      So do them a big favor
      Pretend dancing stinks!
    27. Re:Do we understand enough? by tswinzig · · Score: 2

      Sounds like a big problem. Maybe we should kill all the butterflies in Japan.

      This will simply turn Alaska into a desert.

      --

      "And like that ... he's gone."
    28. Re:Do we understand enough? by mselmeci · · Score: 1

      I probably am wrong, but isn't the idea of a 'butterfly flapping its wings in Japan causing a storm in Alaska' kind of at odds with the idea of conservation of energy?

      I checked out one of the links you gave, but it didn't seem to answer my question.

    29. Re:Do we understand enough? by servo8 · · Score: 1

      The canonical "butterfly storm" would gather its energy from the same source as normal storms: The overall heat energy of the atmosphere/ocean, and to a much lesser extent, from the coriolis effect.

      There are problably countless other energy sources that such a storm could feed off of, and I would imagine that this contributes to the overall chaotic nature of weather.

    30. Re:Do we understand enough? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But we couldn't be playing with fire in the first place if we didn't have any fire!

    31. Re:Do we understand enough? by John_Renne · · Score: 1

      It's not just a question of understanding and be able to foresee consequences. It's also a question of ethics. It might be some kind of pavlov-reaction but allways when reading these kind of articles I start humming a motorhead-song. Just 'cause you got the power that don't mean you got the right

      --
      /(bb|[^b]{2})/
    32. Re:Do we understand enough? by matt4077 · · Score: 1

      Those of you that believe in mind control: please raise my arm.

    33. Re:Do we understand enough? by NulDevice · · Score: 2

      Except - we can't know all the ramifications.

      This is the fun of non-linear dynamics, commonly called "chaos theory."

      Weather is the classic case of sensitive dependence on initial conditions. Butterflies in China and all that.

      As nice an idea as it would be to just say "no bad weather" we could really, really screw things up. "No bad weather now! Yay! Whoops, we just flooded Oregon!"

      --

      ----
      "I used to listen to Null Device before they sold out."

    34. Re:Do we understand enough? by artsygeek · · Score: 1

      The issue inherent to this really is that even if microscale modification is possible, macroscale(world-wide) weather modification is nearly impossible due to the chaotic nature of the system. I think seeding clouds and suppressing hail could be okay on small local scales, but modifying weather on a large scale could cause all sorts of horrible side effects. We also don't know the ecological impact of hail and hurricanes. It may be true that oceans need to be stirred up a certain way by hurricanes to help fishing...we just don't know yet. And I think that until we find at least some shadow of a purpose behind these phenomena, we should keep our fingers off the buttons.

  6. Re:first post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    err..nope.. and gay popup site doesn't work with opera..

  7. i'm sure farmers wouldn't complain by netnerd.caffinated · · Score: 2

    I know a lot of farmers in rural NSW in Australia that are suffering from drought wouldn't mind. Although i think it will become a bit like genetically modified crops, or pesticide. The 1st world countries that can afford the technology will get it, but the 3rd world will have to wait.

    --


    You tried your best, & you failed miserably,
    The lesson is:
    Never Try
    1. Re:i'm sure farmers wouldn't complain by Menkhaf · · Score: 1

      But still, why should we? I'm afraid it would ruin our environment. And why should we do it when our forefathers didn't have to? And who are to decide how the weather should be?
      No, let nature do the work. Much cheaper, much easier, and much more environmental...

      --
      A proud member of the Onion-in-Hand alliance
    2. Re:i'm sure farmers wouldn't complain by netnerd.caffinated · · Score: 1

      there's a fine line between humaitarianism and environmentalism. Reminds me of a story about a bunch of environmentalists that were protesting against forest backburning to prevent bush fires, because lots wildlife die from it. But what happens when there is a bushfire & all the wildlife die anyway... on a much greater scale.

      --


      You tried your best, & you failed miserably,
      The lesson is:
      Never Try
    3. Re:i'm sure farmers wouldn't complain by Osty · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But still, why should we? I'm afraid it would ruin our environment. And why should we do it when our forefathers didn't have to? And who are to decide how the weather should be?

      Why shouldn't we? If done responsibly, environmental effects will be minimal, "ruining" nothing. Perhaps our forefathers didn't have to, but given the choice, do you think they would? An ever-shrinking amount of arable land is being used to provide food for an ever-growing world population. Why not use everything in our power to maximize (safe) production of food so that the world can eat? (yeah, yeah, we should do something about population control, but face it -- it's not going to happen).


      No, let nature do the work. Much cheaper, much easier, and much more environmental...

      In that vein, I'm sure you're against irrigation (nature didn't put a waterway where you need it, so tough shit), fertilizer (if the ground isn't rich enough to grow your food, tough shit), or even sowing seeds (hey, if nature didn't grow these food plants there, it must've been for a reason, right?). I'm sorry, but no. Man has been changing his environment since the first day he learned to walk (picking berries from bushes means less food for some animals, killing animals for food means less food for the natural predators of those animals, the development of farming causes vast tracts of land to be deforested, etc). Controlling the weather is not a revolutionary step. It's an evolutionary step in man's ability to control his surroundings. So long as we're responsible about it, there's nothing to lose and everything to gain.


    4. Re:i'm sure farmers wouldn't complain by Yorrike · · Score: 2
      Why should anyone use any kind of technology at all? We got far enough without it. I mean, why don't I just stop taking my daily insulin shots - it's technology after all. It's opinions like that which belong on an Amish farm.

      I agree that the it's cheaper, easier and more "natural" to let the weather do it's own thing, but think of the people who could be helped with technology like this. You'd be able to increase the amount of arable farm land in places like Australia or the Middle East/Africa - allowing more food to be grown more easily.

      Yes, it'll be playing around with the weather and I'm pretty sure we won't fully understand the earth's meterological patterns before we're able to change them, but if we're careful, it shouldn't be a problem.

      --

      Looks can be deceiving. Or CAN they?

    5. Re:i'm sure farmers wouldn't complain by Yorrike · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Man has been changing his environment since the first day he learned to walk (picking berries from bushes means less food for some animals, killing animals for food means less food for the natural predators of those animals, the development of farming causes vast tracts of land to be deforested, etc).

      Dont't you see? Man isn't part of nature, we're seperate from it, we only seek to destroy it. Seriously though, I would say that human cultural and technological evolution can be seen as part of a natural process. We are, after all, creatures of the earth, we've got just as much right to use the land as any other animal, we're just hundreds of thousands of times more efficiant at doing it (stupid baboons, let's see you develop a written language!).

      --

      Looks can be deceiving. Or CAN they?

    6. Re:i'm sure farmers wouldn't complain by cp99 · · Score: 2

      From my very limited understanding of the Australian skys, one major problem will be the lack of moisture over the drought areas. It's no good trying to induce rain, when there is no water overhead.

      --
      Warning: Some ideologies on the Net are smaller than they appear.
    7. Re:i'm sure farmers wouldn't complain by SweetAndSourJesus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Why not use everything in our power to maximize (safe) production of food so that the world can eat?"

      Uh, people aren't starving due to lack of food. People are starving because governments decide to starve them.

      There's plenty of food to go around, it's just not being distributed.

      --

      --
      the strongest word is still the word "free"
    8. Re:i'm sure farmers wouldn't complain by blisspix · · Score: 1

      actually they do mind. Some farmers have already complained that rain over New Year destroyed their feed crop.

      Some people are never happy.

      Instead of adjusting the weather to suit us, we should change to suit the weather. Farmers need to be much better prepared for drought. It's a fact of life in this country, and the sooner Howard put money into sustainability programs, instead of blindly handing out cash to pay mortgages, the better.

    9. Re:i'm sure farmers wouldn't complain by grain · · Score: 1

      No, man is part of nature. We depend on our environment and other species just like the rest of the living things on this planet. Granted, we do have just as much right to use the land as any other animal, but not more right than any other. We are currently treading way over the line in this regard, not from a destructive instinct but from the perfectly natural instinct of self-preservation.

      Unfortunately, the undeniable effect of totalitarian agriculture (converting as much of the earth's biomass to human mass as we desire) is the usurping of the very species and environment on which we depend. We cannot stand separate and ultimately control every aspect of our environment on this planet, and it would be foolish to aim for this goal as a species.

      I recommend reading Daniel Quinn's work for a better explanation.

  8. David Eddings by perrin5 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's interesting to see that fantasy is also sometimes able to predict the future. David Eddings talked a little about this in one of his series. The point being that when you change weather in one part of the world, the air, energy and such have to go, and come from, somewhere. The effects could be huge...

    --
    hmmmm?
    1. Re:David Eddings by CableModemSniper · · Score: 1

      ::puts on Troll hat::
      Ah yes, some fantasy author points out something fairly obvious, and you repeat it on slashdot. Instant +5, Insightful.

      --
      Why not fork?
    2. Re:David Eddings by geekoid · · Score: 2

      oh yes, the famous, "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction" that Edding proposed...

      yes garion summons up a storm, then gets yelled at by his uncle, but I would hardly call that a prediction. Besides, the point of that was to show Garions reaction, not as a desertation on weather control.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    3. Re:David Eddings by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the...energy... have to come from somewhere

      Maybe like that big orange ball in the sky?

    4. Re:David Eddings by susano_otter · · Score: 0, Troll

      Not only does David Eddings recycle his own ideas shamelessly in every "new" book he writes, but in this case he's also recycled Ursula LeGuin's ideas.

      Bad writing is excuseable, if the plotting and character development show signs of originality and insight beneath the cliches and awkwardness.

      Of all the writers I've read, Eddings is second only to Robert Jordan in his failure to show signs of either positive quality.

      Even Piers Anthony is a better author, for crying out loud!

      --

      Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.

    5. Re:David Eddings by 3Bees · · Score: 1

      Don't forget the warnings about wizardly weather responsibility in Ursula K. LeGuin's Wizard of Earthsea.

      --
      "I think we should tax people who stand in water! " - Mr. Gumby
    6. Re:David Eddings by belloc · · Score: 2

      The effects could be huge...

      And perhaps undesirable. The person/organization responsible for controlling the weather must be able to demonstrate unequivocally that whatever weather change he/she/they are proposing is better for everyone in the affected region than the unchanged weather would have been. Or at least better for some vast majority, and not horribly burdensome on the rest.

      Are we really ready to start making arguably uncertain changes on such a regional scale?

      Silly example: Three straight days of rain in May might be good for a region's farms, but devastating to local baseball teams who depend on attendance for their revenue. That's dumb, of course, but it's the kind of thing that would have to be considered.

      Belloc

      --
      I got more rhymes than Jamaica got Mangoes.
  9. NO by prichardson · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    I knew we should have dissabled super weapons when we started this game. Now that the allies can create lightning storms our infantry is screwed. The nukes aren't even that helpful, and we can never seem to get the Iron Curtain working.

    --
    Help I'm a rock.
    1. Re:no by drsquare · · Score: 1

      Well, I for one do NOT like my weather cold and grey. Living in the North of England, I'm lucky to see three days of sun a year. And even then it's freezing cold to make up for it. Having it cold, cloudy and rainy every single fucking day is just downright depressing. Some days I just stay in bed because I just don't want to face another day of such misery. I look out of the window and see it absolutely pissing it down with rain, and think "Fuck it, I'm not going outside in that." Then I just go back to sleep. On New Year's Day, I could barely see 50 yards it was so foggy. What a fucking joke.

      If we do find out how to change the weather, it would be an absolute god-send. Imagine, waking up to a warm, sunny day! It'd be like being on holiday every day! No more miserable fucking rain and cloud and wind. I could actually ENJOY leaving the house. It's amazing how much a little sun can cheer you up, so imagine having it sunny every day. It's no coincidence that places with the grimmest, darkest weather have the highest suicide rates. Changing the weather could make millions upon millions of people happier, which can only be a good thing.

      Although if you're worried about it affecting the climate, then we could compensate for it by making it permanently cold, cloudy and wet in all the sunny places. Let THEM see what it's like to live in constantly miserable weather. Then they might change their oh-so-fucking-optimistic outlook on life.

  10. If I only could change the weather... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...I would bring more snow to this desert. (Mod:O)

  11. all the oil companies are laughing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I see all the oil companies are laughing because they already do...

  12. no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I like my weather cold and gray. Stormy, when possible. I don't want every city in the world to turn into fucking San Diego or Miami.

    Likewise, I don't want all the environmental nuts declaring that an entire city should be subjugated to a type of climate all the time all in the name of the furry little dependant animals.

  13. Population Control by mr.+phantastik · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I may sound like a horrible person here, but I really think that as soon as we start screwing around with nature, we throw the balance out the window. The human population is already way too large as it is. Much like developing cures for disease, stopping hurricanes from hitting population centers is just another way to screw over any form of population control. We may save more lives now, but I bet you its going to cost us in the end.

    1. Re:Population Control by Telastyn · · Score: 2

      I've always said similar things about welfare systems (a bit jokingly). Why should we help people who cannot help or support themselves? Didn't humans evolve to such a state by letting the monkeys that weren't clever get eaten by the lions?

      (this of course assumes that said people would not turn to robery and murder to sustain themselves, and that their children would not gain beneficial "mutations")

    2. Re:Population Control by beta21 · · Score: 3, Funny

      I see, the idea of the strongest and most able to cope should survive, you know this means that George Bush being the most powerful man in the world is the epoch of what we should all aim for.

    3. Re:Population Control by I'm+a+racist. · · Score: 0, Troll

      My thoughts exactly!

      Things like cancer and AIDS are good for the human species collectively, even if they suck for a bunch of people.

      I've done some work on cancer diagnosis (specifically on certain types of leukemia), and even though I doubt my work is going to help anyone in the near future, I do somewhat regret having done it, simply for the reasons stated above.

      All of our medical technology has basically pulled us out of the Darwinian game of life. If it weren't for modern medicine, hemophilia would likely have been (nearly) eradicated by natural selection already. Of course, causing a major weather catastrophe or two will certainly help control the population. Lets not forget that this could eventually be used as a weapon (especially since some of the techniques are rather cheap/simple relative to nuclear devices).

      Regardless of this weather stuff, the population is out of control (this is mostly a third world problem) and will need to be dealt with. Lots of sci-fi authors have covered the topic of selective breeding programs. I wouldn't call the concept of needing to schedule some sort of executions (in a century or so) completely unrealistic (but, it seems highly unlikely now).

      --


      Down with Saudi Arabia!!!
    4. Re:Population Control by Elwood+P+Dowd · · Score: 2

      Cost who? *Not* doing it might not cost the living people (I think it would), but it would certainly cost all the people that die.

      So I think you'll have to clarify what you mean by "cost" and what you mean by "us".

      I think what you're really saying is that you don't know what will happen if we continue to experience unchecked growth, both in population and economy. You'd like to see us approach something stable. Who's to say that some arbitrary limit on life-extending enginuity is going to be a stable solution? The future that I see is a whole lot more dystopian, but I imagine that the stable solution will only be acheived after we've exploited every possible life-extending enginuity, and the Earth is at it's absolute limit of human population, and there is an honest-to-goodness struggle for existence. And I imagine this will take at least a few hundred years, if not much longer.

      This isn't the future that I'd like, but short of a world authoritarian government, I don't see a way to avoid it. Start moving people to other planets, I guess.

      Balance is out the window.

      --

      There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
    5. Re:Population Control by Mannerism · · Score: 2

      OK...but of course, it's not my population you're controlling. I'd probably feel differently if I actually lived in a hurricane zone.

    6. Re:Population Control by Telastyn · · Score: 1

      I think it's clear that we've not reached what we're aiming for :P

    7. Re:Population Control by Christopher+Thomas · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I may sound like a horrible person here, but I really think that as soon as we start screwing around with nature, we throw the balance out the window. The human population is already way too large as it is.

      I'll bite.

      You are making several questionable assumptions in your post.

      First of all, you're assuming that there is a size that the human population "should" be. How did you derive this value, and what was it? As far as I can see, the human race can survive at just about any population level it pleases - there's just a sliding scale of consequences, which in turn depends very strongly on _how_ people choose to run their lives. So both the desired population and the effects of maintaining this population are pretty arbitrary decisions.

      Second of all, you're assuming that there is a "balance" that must be maintained. Historically, the ecosphere has done a very good job of maintaining itself despite far greater changes than humanity has wrought. There is a continuum of possible balance points, each with their own consequences - where we want to place the balance point is a decision, not something dictated by nature.

      Much like developing cures for disease, stopping hurricanes from hitting population centers is just another way to screw over any form of population control.

      Hurricanes do not contribute substantially to population control.

      Neither does disease, really. We'll always die of _something_. The lag time is pretty much irrelevant over the long term. The period of fertility for women is pretty much the same, so people could live to age 300+ without affecting the number of children they had over the 20-year window. The number of children per couple is a social issue, not one of longevity.

      In summary, your argument makes no sense.

    8. Re:Population Control by CableModemSniper · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Survival of the fittest is an observation, not a criterium for living. If you are alive, you are surviving and therefore "fit", regardless of how you survive. Evolution doesn't have a goal...we aren't slowing down the creation of the ubermensch with welfare because evolution isn't leading us to the ubermensch in the first place.

      OTOH, I don't like welfare. :)

      --
      Why not fork?
    9. Re:Population Control by Boss,+Pointy+Haired · · Score: 2
      No need to feel like a horrible person. We're not throwing any balance out of the window, our scientific progression is all part of our nature - and it's all part of the balance. Just as we are using science to keep our numbers up by;

      solving more kinds of infertility

      finding cures for previously fatal diseases

      increasing our life expectancy

      so too is science going to have to kind ways to keep our numbers down; such as screwing with the weather.

      I don't think you can stop our technological progression. Nature will still find a balance; don't worry.

    10. Re:Population Control by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly I agree with what you say. If we could only get the Gov to agree and stop giving away handouts so that my %&*#*@ taxes dont have me in the poor house. If you cant support yourself then you die. Simple and easy. That would certainly clean out the gene pool in a hurry.

    11. Re:Population Control by Cyno · · Score: 2

      You know what the funny thing is? We'd rather say it costs too much money than to raise the bar on the quality of life for everyone. We'd rather save our money than feed a starving family. The funny thing is a single human life (when put in the proper environment) is worth more than all the money in the world because they are a human, fully capable of being intelligent, creative and productive (as opposed to a dog or any other animal). But we deserve whatever we get either way.

    12. Re:Population Control by Guppy06 · · Score: 2

      "I may sound like a horrible person here, but I really think that as soon as we start screwing around with nature, we throw the balance out the window."

      I hope you're "supporting the cause" by turning down medical attention in ways that make Christian Scientists look like hypochondriacs. I'd be seriously disillusioned if you, say, had health insurance. Or that you had a medicine cabinet (complete with medicine). Heck, you're failing your ideals if you drink fluoridated water.

      Which reminds me: food and water you don't hunt and gather for yourself is also "throwing the balance out the window." And all your hunting better be with nothing more advanced than a sharp stick (if not with your bare hands). Clothing and shelter are also no-no's.

      Speaking of which, what are you doing on a computer? You shouldn't be literate. Even language use is questionable.

      Are you familiar with Jonathan Swift's modest proposal?

      Troll or hypocrite?

    13. Re:Population Control by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stopping any type of scientific advancement is a silly idea. You could argue that any new discovery will have negative effects on the human species and the others it co-exists with, but without these risks we would never step forward.

      I say roll out the 10 foot chickens and baby farms!

    14. Re:Population Control by glesga_kiss · · Score: 2
      Of course. Welfare is reverse-evolution; it supports the weak and useless. Give them more money based on the number of children they have, you create a huge potential problem. But the alternative is having them starve to death, or turn to crime. It's a tough question.

      The same is true for medicine. The weak are supposed to get ill and die. Tragic, but that's Darwinian Evolution for you. By curing them, and if they have children, their crappy imune systems get passed on to the next generation. Eventually everyone will require constant heathcare assistance.

      Ditto any schemes to help people who unable to have children for various reasons. The idea in evolution is, if you can't reproduce, your defective genes get filtered out. Without the filtration, within a few thousand years ALL people will need medical assistance to have children.

      Ditto sexual desire and birth control. To have many children requires a lot of the first, and none of the second. Some of the offspring would carry on the high sexual desire trait, which for any successful species is extremeley useful. If sex is no longer reproductive, we may eventially remove the sex drive from the human psyche, because there is no need for it.

      All of these could take thousands of years to be seen. What's the alternative? Stop making scientific progress? Eugenics? If you come up with one that's morally sound, don't forget to tell the world!

    15. Re:Population Control by MaximusPrime · · Score: 0



      Things like cancer and AIDS are good for the human species collectively, even if they suck for a bunch of people.

      Now, I'm not a mad scientist but how can AIDS be good for the human species ?
      Is it good because it kills people or is it because in your mind it kills the right kind of people ?

      Hell, if being obese was a deadly disease 21% of U.S. would be at risk of death according to this report http://www.detnews.com/2003/health/0301/02/a01-493 57.htm

      Would that be ok with you seeing as how their deaths would erradicate some undesired fat gene from the world pool ?

      If Weather Control can help save crops and prevent deadly floods it would be a good thing (think dams), but knowing how people can be sometimes, what's to prevent Farmer Bob from sending a mean old crop freezing blizzard over to Farmer Bill's land.

    16. Re:Population Control by JimDabell · · Score: 2
      I really think that as soon as we start screwing around with nature, we throw the balance out the window.

      So you've never shaved or cut your hair? Never brushed your teeth? Never received any immunizations? You don't refridgerate your food? Do you use any electricity at all? What about modern medicine? Ever had surgery?

      Or have you defined screwing around with nature as "things that I'm not familiar with and don't understand"? It seems that's what everybody else who says screwing around with nature means.

    17. Re:Population Control by Superfarstucker · · Score: 1

      weak and useless, thats an interesting assumption to make.. how do you judge ones worth? by how much money they make.. how high up the ladder they have gone? whos going to make your shoes for .35 cents an hour if there are no 'weak and useless' people in the world..

      im sure you have made a ton of contributions to society...

    18. Re:Population Control by Idarubicin · · Score: 2
      Hurricanes do not contribute substantially to population control.

      Neither does disease, really. We'll always die of _something_. The lag time is pretty much irrelevant over the long term.

      I agree with you on hurricanes. On a global scale, their effect on population is quite limited. Disease is an entirely different beast, however. The "lag time" that you refer to is quite significant. With the same number of births, things will get a lot more crowded if the average person lives to sixty, rather than to twenty.

      Disease historically has a tremendous effect on population. The bubonic plague has caused tremendous devasation when introduced to previously unexposed populations. In the eastern Roman Empire under Justinian, between 25 and 50% of the population died between 540 and 590. A similar pandemic swept Europe in 1347-1351, killing roughly a third of the Eurpoean population. The plague returned again in 1663-1668, leaving another twenty million or so dead.

      In the influenza pandemic of 1918, more than twenty million died. The flu killed more people than World War I.

      Currently, there are approximately forty million people infected with HIV, including five million new cases just in 2002. Last year, there were more than three million deaths due to AIDS. There are some sub-Saharan nations that have HIV infection rates of twenty or even thirty percent--don't try to tell me that that fact won't have a significant impact on population.

      If a terrorist organization chose to deliberately release the plague or smallpox in an urban area, millions would die even with the tremendous quality of care available in the United States. Hundreds of millions would die if such a release occurred in Asia, in the crowded cities of India or China.

      --
      ~Idarubicin
    19. Re:Population Control by ebbomega · · Score: 2

      Did you by chance pay attention in ecology class at all?

      Population control and carrying capacity and the like always ends up at a happy medium. Hence why it's called "equilibrium". If a population can sustain itself at a certain level, unless it becomes horribly wiped out (Alvaraz! Wooo!) by some means it will always bring itself back to its original state.

      Let's say that New Orleans has a carrying capacity of about x people.

      Now let's say a hurricane hits it and destroys about 5% of the population. Understand that this is quite the exagerration as to what _would_ happen if a gigantic hurricane hit it.

      Within a couple of years, more people will move in to fill up the carrying capacity. Life continues to thrive. Business goes on as usual.

      Dum-dee-dum-dum and so forth.

      So nothing really happens differently to the population of New Orleans if the hurricane is dissipated before its formation.

      Honestly, this is probably one of the most evolutionary things out there. Too bad I still don't think that humans are responsible enough to use it properly.

      --
      Karma: Non-Heinous
    20. Re:Population Control by d_i_r_t_y · · Score: 2

      don't worry, the enemy of the civilised world, dubya bush, will kill off a few more thousand by randomly invading iraq for oil, thereby invoking the hatred of a thousand new potential terrorists for doing so, who'll pass on the favour by indirectly killing a few thousand more (innocents).

    21. Re:Population Control by Christopher+Thomas · · Score: 2

      Disease is an entirely different beast, however. The "lag time" that you refer to is quite significant. With the same number of births, things will get a lot more crowded if the average person lives to sixty, rather than to twenty.

      Population would increase by a constant factor (the ratio of the old and new lifespans). If we find a cure for *all* disease, this might be a factor of 10 (accidents would become the primary cause of death).

      This is perfectly manageable.

      Population problems arise when the birth rate is consistently higher than the death rate. As mentioned previously, this has nothing to do with lifespan, and everything to do with social norms.

      In summary, I see no overpopulation threat from longevity.

      Your argument about plagues is a red herring, as these are almost all confined to relatively small subsets of the population (people within the affected area), and so have virtually no impact on the population as a whole. Even a "tens of millions of people die" plague is barely a blip. Furthermore, the spreading of plagues on a global scale is caused by technology (the availability of cheap global transport), and so is as artificial as the cures for them. Thus, arguing that nature "wants" to stabilize our population through illness is still silly.

      In summary, I do not find your disease argument convincing.

      In the natural world, populations are limited by resource availability, whether that resource is habitat or food. With technology, both limits can be pushed back for humanity by many orders of magnitude. How far we push them back is, as described previously, an arbitrary choice based on what consequences we want to accept, as opposed to something imposed by nature.

    22. Re:Population Control by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Troll or hypocrite?

      What's the difference?

    23. Re:Population Control by alchemist68 · · Score: 1

      This reminds of the Volterra-Lotka Predator-Prey System:

      dx/dt = Ax - Bxy


      dy/dt = Dxy - Cy

      where A, B, C, and D are positive constants. The change in human population is dx/dt and the change in the hurricane's size and power is dy/dt. As humans encounter the hurricane, Bxy, their population decreases. As the hurricane encounters and EATS humans, Dxy, its size and power GROWS! Since humans occupy much of the Earth's surface, the hurricanes are going to have one hell of a feeding fest! Maybe that's how Jupiter's "Red Storm Cloud" came to be, it just ate the most populated dominate lifeform there, and as excrement, spits out small orbiting bodies that we concidently identify as MOONS! A recent "new moon" discovery supports this concretely solid hypothesis. By Jove, Another Moon!

      Well, I feel so much better now that I solved another great mystery of the universe! I just love the interconnectedness of Nature.

    24. Re:Population Control by skinnedmink · · Score: 1

      Did anyone take time to think...hey humans are part of nature. Whatever we do to the enviroment is caused by NATURE. Last thing is that we do mess with nature..ever hunted?

      --
      peace be with you.
    25. Re:Population Control by Velox_SwiftFox · · Score: 2
      If a terrorist organization chose to deliberately release the plague or smallpox in an urban area, millions would die even with the tremendous quality of care available in the United States. Hundreds of millions would die if such a release occurred in Asia, in the crowded cities of India or China.
      No, what would happen if smallpox were released would be hundreds of deaths in places with the quality of care available in the United States, mostly caused by vaccinia side-effects. Probably followed by millions of deaths in the poorer third world countries if, as is likely, it spread there before being recognized.

      Bubonic plague is endemic to most of the world and is both curable and easily suppressed in a variety of ways ranging from halfway decent sanitation to flea powder.

      The big surprise is likely to be a perfectly natural influenza virus pandemic.

    26. Re:Population Control by glesga_kiss · · Score: 2
      how do you judge ones worth? by how much money they make.. how high up the ladder they have gone?

      Of course not, but they are a factor in the overall equation, as they are a direct result of your productivity and usefulness. But I dare say that the people on welfare are not the most productive to society. Perhaps the US (I presume) does it differently, but in the UK disability benefit is completely separate to unemployment benefit. The people on unemployment are "available for work", so to speak.

      Many do not for various ecconomic reasons, such as actually being better off on welfare than they would be in work. For a minimum wage job, it's often not worth the financial cost of the transport to work, plus food and anything else to get you through the day (costs more to eat away from home). Or, here you also lose any housing benefit when you return to work. Another large problem are people on welfare working casual labor for cash, abusing the system.

      Welfare needs reform to address these problems.

      I'm not saying that welfare or similar should be stopped (I never did). I'm just pointing out a potential long term problem in it's effects on our genetic evolution. That is all dependent on how relevant your own genetic make up is in relation to whether you are on welfare or not. There are other factors, such as the environment you grow up in.

      whos going to make your shoes for .35 cents an hour

      We are talking about welfare/evolution in our respective countries. This isn't relevant to this discussion.

      No one is going to accept that wage here, the cost and relative standard of living here could not be supported on that wage, you could work every hour of the day and not come close to what you would get on welfare.

      In some countries, they are not as prosperous as ours. That money may just be enough to get through daily life, for the average person. Is it my fault that the standard of living, and the relative value of their currency differs to ours? How is it relevant to whether providing welfare on the issue of our genetic evolution?

      im sure you have made a ton of contributions to society

      I work, obey the sensible laws (grin), treat everyone decently, don't lie, basically don't shit on other peoples doorsteps. I reckon I'm doing not too badly.

    27. Re:Population Control by xaymaca2020 · · Score: 0

      Yes, and let's start with racists like you. Great idea!

    28. Re:Population Control by Trazk · · Score: 1

      To answer your questions and clarify the points made by the original poster,

      By balance, he's probably talking about the balance of humans to plants and other animals. There exists in our biosphere a concept known as "Carrying Capacity of Species in an area." Look it up in your biology textbook. This concept explains that the more of one type of organism inhabiting one area eventually will lead to the decline of another. By this, understand several things: We're clearcutting forests to make room for mini-malls and parking lots all the time. The trees have a right to life too, don't they? Do you think there are too many trees? They don't grow at the expense of others like Humans do.

      The author of the original post in this thread probably was trying to say that a balance must be kept at least in some reguard, with all other forms of life. We've already killed off the Dodo bird, nearly extinctified the White Whale, the Tiger, Gorillia, etc. All because humans:

      1. Consume too much
      2. Are everywhere

      If you exeed the carrying capacity of an area by increasing the population of one type of organism (man), 2 things will happen: We won't have enough food to go around, and hunger is ALREADY a problem in the world, and Disease will be more prone - it's a proven fact.

      This ties into what he was leading to what the population should be.

      There is no perfect size, as it would be changing all the time anyway. But optimally, we'd be in better proportion to everything else. I don't believe there should be only 2 dozen bangel tigers for every 6.5 billion people on the planet. That's absurd.

      Additionally, I'd like to disagree with your statement that Nature isn't responsible for trying to balance it's self out. Doesn't it seem like good logic that if Humans just went away for a while, Things would eventually return to the way they were before we were around? With the exception of the dodo of course. Trees would grow, natural fire, termites, etc. would keep them under control, but not to a breaking point, such as the one we're forcing.

      Hurricanes spread new and fresh soil for plants to grow, as do floods. The ancient Egyptians were able to live self-suficiently on the floods of the nile for more than 2000 years - Until industry started. I Don't support the diversion of hurricanes. Humans should learn that if they want to survive, they shouldn't live in an area where the threat is prevalent. Goes along the same line as drugs. If you want to survive, don't use them. Use them, and you die. I support Drugs as an excellent form of population control. Not only do people die off, but you clean up the genetic pool a bit.

      Agent Smith actually put it into perspective during his monologue in the Matrix. He said that he is fascinated by human's likeness to a virus: They replicate, consume, and move on.

      The original author's post, I feel, was well founded, but he was simply a little vague.

      *sneeze*
      "Don't bless me! I pray for war!"
      - Sgt. Kirklen, US Army

      --
      "In the beginning, there was nothing; Then it blew up."
    29. Re:Population Control by Trazk · · Score: 1

      So what you're saying is that if we unlock the genome and figure out how to program people to live to 200 (disease free) years old, we won't have a bigger population problem in the future?

      You're vague on this by saying it's manageable.. How? Mass executions?

      Do you support the erradication of other species so long as Humans win over?

      We possess the ability to create habits and food for us to survive on, but is that the right thing to do? If we possess this technology, maybe you think we should send this all to Mars or the moon so we can colonize that? Not much life there for us to kill off, eh?

      The thread's author is trying, I think, to point out that balance includes everything - plants and animals alike.

      --
      "In the beginning, there was nothing; Then it blew up."
    30. Re:Population Control by Christopher+Thomas · · Score: 2

      By balance, he's probably talking about the balance of humans to plants and other animals. There exists in our biosphere a concept known as "Carrying Capacity of Species in an area." Look it up in your biology textbook.

      As was described in my other messages in this thread, the carrying capacity for humans is not a constant - it is a function of both our lifestyle and of the industrial/technological effort we put into extending it. This makes it a very arbitrary number, whose exact value is chosen by our decisions as a society.

      We're clearcutting forests to make room for mini-malls and parking lots all the time. The trees have a right to life too, don't they? Do you think there are too many trees? They don't grow at the expense of others like Humans do.

      They grow at the expense of other types of tree, or of the other organisms that would flourish should the region in question not be forest. And vice versa. This is your own carrying capacity argument.

      As far as "rights" are concerned, there are no fundammental "rights" dictated by nature, as the concept of "rights" is an artificial construct. Arguments based on "rights" reflect society's choices based on cultural values, not anything imposed externally. The "rights" of other organisms - or how many tigers and gorillas we want to have around, to use your other example - influence our _choice_ of where to put the balance point. Using them as support of a naturally-imposed balance point is silly, for the reasons outlined in this paragraph.

      I sincerely hope that we as a society choose to leave vast swaths of untouched wilderness on the planet as parks, but it will be by charity, not by necessity for our survival.

      If you exeed the carrying capacity of an area by increasing the population of one type of organism (man), 2 thing will happen: We won't have enough food to go around, and hunger is ALREADY a problem in the world, and Disease will be more prone - it's a proven fact.

      These statements prove that we've already vastly increased the carrying capacity of the planet. Look at any major city; in a society with medieval technology, most of the population would die from cholera or some other disease due to poor sanitation, and cities far from farmland would starve due to vastly reduced crop yields and lack of volume of transportation.

      Food production and resistance to disease have been greatly increased, increasing the carrying capacity. Thus, your arguments don't seem to support your original point.

      Additionally, I'd like to disagree with your statement that Nature isn't responsible for trying to balance it's self out.

      You seem to have misunderstood my point. Nature is extremely good at balancing itself out. My point is that the location of the balance point is arbitrary, being determined by the conditions nature is responding to. Thus, nature's balancing act says nothing about where it "should" be balanced.

      Doesn't it seem like good logic that if Humans just went away for a while, Things would eventually return to the way they were before we were around?

      And if trees went away for a while, ferns would re-inherit the earth. So what?

      You're making the assumption that the state of the world prior to human existance is preferable to the state of the world with humans on it. This is a value judgement, based on your own personal values. As described above, this kind of value judgement is arbitrary, and so does not support the asseration that the world "should" be that way.

      Humans should learn that if they want to survive, they shouldn't live in an area where the threat is prevalent.

      We have the ability to alter our environment to make it more favourable to us. Why should we *not* use it? Ever since the first fire was lit in a cave, it's been done.

      To conclude, you seem to be making the implicit assumption that the way the world was before humans were present is the way the world "should" be. I think this is silly.

  14. Better now than later... by I'm+a+racist. · · Score: 0, Troll

    Look at it this way, if we wait until the technology is perfected and we know all the impacts, you'll never see the benefits of it.

    Not only that, but the only way to really perfect a technology like this is by applying it.

    Yes, it could have some catastrophic effects, but fuck it, you only live once (unless you're a Hindu, but then nobody cares what you think anyway)! As for future generations, if we wipe ourselves out, they'll never notice anyway.

    Being careful about raping mother nature is for quiche eaters...

    --


    Down with Saudi Arabia!!!
    1. Re:Better now than later... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You, my "friend, are an asstard.

    2. Re:Better now than later... by stevejsmith · · Score: 2

      Those "unles you're Hindu, but then nobody cares what you think anyway" comments are what makes you so hated in the first place. Why must you inject your horrible racist attitude into the situations that do not involve race at all? I suggest that if you want people to take you seriously, you do not push your beliefs in situations where they do not matter.

    3. Re:Better now than later... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      SIR, PLEASE do not feed the troll!
      that is all.

    4. Re:Better now than later... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Everything involves race. People get together in groups for one reason and one reason only, to do violence against outsiders. And groups are always racially/ethnically aligned.

    5. Re:Better now than later... by susano_otter · · Score: 2
      ...if we wait until the technology is perfected and we know all the impacts, you'll never see the benefits of it.

      Weather control will be implemented 50 years after people stop laughing about it?

      Why doesn't anybody ever take the long view, anyway? We have the whole universe and all of eternity to play with. This short-sighted obsession with Earth is stupid. All we've got here is an early prototype--a testbed for developing the technologies to survive beyond its gravity well. Weather control, terraforming... these things are only the first stepping stones of our development.

      If we survive, in a million years this whole galaxy will be our "homeworld". Who then will care what happened to one little planet orbiting one unininteresting star? So what if we turn this planet into a stinking cesspit of death, in the process of getting our species truly started as an enduring entity in this universe? There are far worse places, uninhabitable worlds by the billions. I say exploit the earth for all it's worth! There's plenty more resources where these came from. And if constantly putting ourselves on the brink of extinction is what drives us to greater heights of technology and expansion, then so be it. The sooner we test weather control and terraforming and all the rest here on Earth, the sooner we'll be able to do a good job of it on Mars--and the sooner we'll have to. And all that won't even be the prologue of our story.

      --

      Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.

  15. Absolutely by Col.+Panic · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Hurricanes kill lots of people in countries where housing is not well developed. I remember seeing a news broadcast from Nicaragua as one hurricane was approaching and the people being interviewed were basically saying, "we have no shelter - we are going to die."

    I am not as concerned with changing wind/rain patterns as I am about reducing the amount of O3 in the atmosphere or ice at the poles.

    1. Re:Absolutely by Salubri · · Score: 2
      I'm not as concerned with changing wind/rain patterns as I am about reducing the amount of O3 in the atmosphere or ice at the poles.


      Ummm... correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't reducing the ozone (o3) cause severe problems with radiation, and wouldn't reducing the ice at the polar caps cause global sclae flooding?????

      Wow. Are you a Bush by any chance?

      --
      ----- I want my LART.
    2. Re:Absolutely by Dynedain · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So you change the weather patterns so that hurricanes don't hit the coast (or at least not as hard).....suddenly, fertile farmlands 200 miles in from the coast have a severe drop in annual rainfall....those interviewed say "we have no food - we are going to die"

      --
      I'm out of my mind right now, but feel free to leave a message.....
    3. Re:Absolutely by Mantorp · · Score: 1

      well, reducing the ice at the polar caps is doing wonders for the shipping industry, and ozone in the lower atmosphere is a greenhouse gas. Which should save us fuel in the long run since heating needs should be lower.

    4. Re:Absolutely by Col.+Panic · · Score: 1

      (re: your .sig) Here's your lart:

      i said i would not be as concerned about changing hurricane patterns as changing o3 or the polar ice caps. so we are agreed that the latter would be bad. should i diagram the sentence?

    5. Re:Absolutely by Col.+Panic · · Score: 1

      I don't think most commercial farmlands rely on rainfall. They pipe in the o2.

    6. Re:Absolutely by Salubri · · Score: 1
      You know... I have a splitting migraine right now. So you know what? I WILL diagram the sentence in your origional post for you, since obviously you missed this somewhere.
      "I am not as concerned with changing wind/rain patterns as I am about reducing the amount of O3 in the atmosphere or ice at the poles."

      "I am not as concerned with changing wind/rain patterns..." This suggests to me that you don't really care to change any patterns of wind or rain.

      "...as I am with reducing the ammount of o3 in the atmosphere or ice at the poles." This part says that you want to reduce the amount of ozone and polar ice. If you're going to yell at me and inquire if I wanted the sentence diagramed, realize that I already did and that is why I made my joke.

      --
      ----- I want my LART.
    7. Re:Absolutely by Salubri · · Score: 1

      Most farms to a great extent really do rely on rainfall. Even if they do pipe in thier "o2" (even though I could go through the wonders of exploding farms when their oxygen pipe bursts into huge flames, I'm going to assume you meant H2O).

      You see, there isn't much water to pipe in when there's a huge drought. Why? Because the water is piped in from the ecosystem's water table, and in the scorching heat of the summer, if there is no rain that water table doesn't get replenished.

      --
      ----- I want my LART.
    8. Re:Absolutely by Col.+Panic · · Score: 1

      you still want a lart?

      Doh! on the 02 vs. h20 - you assume correctly

      back to the subject: when discussing a change in a hurricane's path you assert that we might induce a change in the rain pattern nearby

      i doubt that would happen because a hurricane takes a short time to develop, travel and devestate an area - it might "live" for a week or two. rain patterns and especially drought are not a factor in such a short time.

    9. Re:Absolutely by Salubri · · Score: 1

      Perhaps not just one. But account for the fact that there are many more than just 1 hurricane in any given system. The chance exists that anything resembling a hurricane would be modified by any weather enhancing system.

      Now, I've heard years in which the hurricane belt gets many many hurricanes. What would happen if all that water were to simply be rerouted to another area of the globe? Then you ARE talking about areas 200 miles away, because it will lead to less water evaporating into the surrounding skies, which is less water vapor that winds can carry to those farms.

      One perhaps not. Many, then your talking impact.

      And by the way, with the jobs I work and the people I meet, there isn't a passing hour that I don't want my lart.

      --
      ----- I want my LART.
    10. Re:Absolutely by Dynedain · · Score: 2

      In California, yes....in much of the rest of the world (such as the huge wheat fields of the midwest) - no, they rely on natural rainfall.

      If you've ever taken a geology course, you'd know that soil holds a vast amount of moisture (the topsoil, not just down in wells). Plants recieve most of their moisture directly from the soil. Even though the plants can't directly absorb and store up the vast amounts of water that come from rainfall, snow, etc....the ground absorbs much of it, providing the wet stuff to the plants later.

      --
      I'm out of my mind right now, but feel free to leave a message.....
    11. Re:Absolutely by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you know how ozone is produced?

    12. Re:Absolutely by Col.+Panic · · Score: 1

      I live in a hurricane belt. It is definitely true that our water table would be less plentiful if we didn't have the rains from hurricanes to help (over) fill it. However, I am sure the populace (farmers included) would rather use other means to water their crops and drink bottled water and live with water restrictions, if necessary, than have severe winds *kill* people and destroy property. We just don't want the rain that badly.

      OT (your .sig again)

      I finally understand your .sig. Apparently you want the noun version? I was thinking of the verb.

    13. Re:Absolutely by Col.+Panic · · Score: 1

      "I am not as concerned with changing wind/rain patterns..." This suggests to me that you don't really care to change any patterns of wind or rain.

      Well, that was not the intended meaning. "Changing wind/rain" is a gerund+object combination here, rather than using "changing" as a verb. So the meaning was: I am not as concerned with the change in ... rather than suggesting that I, personally, would change the weather.

  16. The ultimate weapon by tuxlove · · Score: 1

    Weather control may be bad for many reasons, not excluding military purposes. Imagine if you could cause endless crippling storms to descend upon your enemy. The possibilities are endless. I guarantee that as soon as it's feasible, the military will jump on it. Or even before it's feasible.

    1. Re:The ultimate weapon by MacAndrew · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Ultimate weapon? Tell you what, a duel: You get weather control and I get the nukes. :)

      I just think we've crossing the "ultimate weapon" line.

      Storm is not the most powerful of the X-Men, after all -- though close. (Who is? Hmm. A major theme there is teamwork.)

    2. Re:The ultimate weapon by CableModemSniper · · Score: 1

      I don't know...Enough hail, rain snow and sleet, and your won't be able to aim your precious nukes. Not to mention what happens when my storm causes a power outage. Plus, a nuke can be intercepted (well maybe not practically, but theoretically), what are you going to do shoot down my storm front? :)

      And Storm is so the must powerful :-P

      --
      Why not fork?
    3. Re:The ultimate weapon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    4. Re:The ultimate weapon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Another US Air Force paper:

      Counterforce Weather Control

      This paper included in Volume II

      NOTE: This paper is classified. Personnel with appropriate clearances may request copies by contacting:

    5. Re:The ultimate weapon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      A web site to wonder about:

      If Frogs Had Wings / Weather Control

    6. Re:The ultimate weapon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Tell you what, a duel: You get weather control and I get the nukes.

      You just about summed up Red Alert 2 right there.

    7. Re:The ultimate weapon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      This is my favourite:

      "On April 4, 2001 KNBC Weatherman Fritz Coleman during his 6pm News in Los Angeles witnessed two "flashes" during his presentation. It would appear these anomalies are getting harder and harder to hide or explain away."

      Check out the page, the images are interesting. It's a series of images digitized from the weather report, along with more images from weather radars. Very peculiar.

    8. Re:The ultimate weapon by geekoid · · Score: 2

      so after i have lighting strike your nukes after they leave the silo, i'll get to electricute you, or keep you from getting water.
      I'll take weather control, thankyouverymuch

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    9. Re:The ultimate weapon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Storm is not the most powerful of the X-Men, after all -- though close.

      But she has the biggest titties :)

    10. Re:The ultimate weapon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe you haven't noticed, but thunderstorms are not exactly instantaneous. A nuclear missle will leave a silo in under 30 seconds (and I'm being excessively pessimistic). When's the last time you saw a storm fully developed in under 30 seconds? Besides, this isn't like an arcade game where you can point your crosshairs and fire a lightning bolt at that exact spot. Lightning still works the same as ever - uncontrollably.

    11. Re:The ultimate weapon by minitrue · · Score: 2

      Storm is not the most powerful of the X-Men, after all -- though close.

      I guess I was absent the day they taught us to cite comic books as evidence of scientific veracity.

    12. Re:The ultimate weapon by MacAndrew · · Score: 1

      If you come to /. for your science, you're not doing much better. :)

    13. Re:The ultimate weapon by MacAndrew · · Score: 2
      I planned to sneer at your puny weather, pitted against my Minuteman III's nestled in hardened silos (and I'm sure emergency power has occurred to them!) ... but check this NMD idea:
      Plasmoids involve hurling clouds of energized atomic nuclei and electrons into the path of incoming warheads. There was also the idea of the HEL/CPB combo. A laser ionizes a channel in the atmosphere for the charged beam to travel along to the target. However, charged beams bend and are thus useless. One last idea was based on the Advanced Test Accelerator research at the Lawrence Livermore Laboratory. They had created a form of artificial lightning from pulses of electrons, which may have had SDI applications if it could be made to fire thousands of miles precisely instead of several feet randomly.

      Decisive, however, should be the 30-minute ICBM delivery anywhere in the globe; problematic only if you have no fixed base of operations (but even Al Queda has places it cares about).

      Your attempts to intercept will be overwhelmed by superior numbers and $1.95 countermeasures. And just try to stop my SLBM's! And stealth bombers! And Ryder trucks! Ha ha ha!
    14. Re:The ultimate weapon by SensitiveMale · · Score: 2

      Storm is not the most powerful of the X-Men, after all

      Yeah, but she got the biggest boobies and that PHAT ASS!

  17. In Soviet Russia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In Soviet Russia, weather changes you!

  18. Since when by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Since when have we ever refrained from doing stuff before thinking about the consequences?

  19. YES by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Q: Should we change the weather?

    1. Re:yes by vudufixit · · Score: 2

      There are plenty of hurricanes and other storms that spend their entire "lives" far from any human population. (IE way out in the middle of the ocean). If humans ever get to the point of attempting storm mitigation, I'm sure we'd start with those first.

  20. It depends by Osty · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I think the answer to this, like the answer to many questions, is a resounding, "It depdends!" For example, what environmental benefit does hail bring? Would it not be better to control hail, thus sparing millions of dollars in crop and structure damage? What benefit do we get from tornados? Hurricanes may be a tough one, because while they do cause lots of property damage, they bring rain and affect weather patterns farther inland than you would think. What about causing unseasonal monsoons? Would that cause environmental problems, or would the influx of water into the system be beneficial?


    Having the technology is good. There's nothing wrong with that. Using it, however, requires proper thought on the part of those who would use it.

  21. Avengers Anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wheres Uma Therman when you need her?

  22. That's Not Population Control by GuyMannDude · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I may sound like a horrible person here, but I really think that as soon as we start screwing around with nature, we throw the balance out the window. The human population is already way too large as it is. Much like developing cures for disease, stopping hurricanes from hitting population centers is just another way to screw over any form of population control. We may save more lives now, but I bet you its going to cost us in the end.

    As a big supporter of population control, I feel I must respond to this. Population control is not about finding ways to kill existing people or even turning a blind eye to ways to save existing people from being killed. Population control is about trying to reduce the number of births. Once a person living their life, I don't think anyone in their right mind would say its in the best interest of humanity to let them die (and, please, let's not get into an abortion discussion here). The way to curb the population explosion is through economic, societial and educational reform.

    You don't favor weather control? Fine. But please don't wrap yourself in the cloak of population control. You make us look like monsters. Population control is very humane. It has nothing to do with letting people die.

    GMD

    1. Re:That's Not Population Control by PatientZero · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Yes, I believe the proper scientific term is "population culling" and not "control." I am also in favor of using practical knowledge and common sense in managing the growth (or decline) of the human population, but not by killing living people thank-you-very-much. Nor by imposing my viewpoint on others, but let's not get into that debate as this thread is about weather.

      Having said that, I don't believe that if we figure out a way to nudge hurricanes we should just blindly use it. What if hurricanes serve a very important meteorological purpose that we don't yet understand. If we begin mucking about with weather patterns, we invite rather drastic effects later on. There's no gaurantee -- just like everything else in life -- but I'd rather we spend several decades studying the effects of minor projects rather than have every state and world power get involved.

      No, I'm far from being a luddite or chicken little. I'm only saying we should be cautious when attempting something so vast. If everyone started increasing the rain that falls in their state, from where does that excess water come? Do massive droughts appear elsewhere? After awhile perhaps only the capital-rich nations can afford rain as everyone competes to cause more rainfall. Just as the developing nations don't have as much access to world oil, will they soon not have access to water? Scary.

      --
      Freedom to fear. Freedom from thought. Freedom to kill.
      I guess the War on Terror really is about freedom!
    2. Re:That's Not Population Control by Lumpy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      If you want to make the biggest impact on the population there is one very simple thing you can do....

      stop water treatment and filtration. The NUMBER ONE thing that saves lives and lengthens the human lifespan is drinking clean and treated water. remove that one pesky thing and you instantly take a population hit.

      Everyone with an immuno-defeciency will die horribly within 2-3 months... dysentary can kill a healthy person, it will ravage someone that isn't up to par. Leigoniares Disease will take out another bunch... There are TONS of water borne diseases that can and will take a mighty healthy chunk out of the population.

      real population contril though is as you say... Unfortunately the human as a species is pretty stupid.. Animals don't have babies if the food/water or environment does not have favorable conditions ... Yet humans still happily reproduce... in areas where they cant feed themselves they still happily hump along...

      Population control is needed DESPERATELY in many areas of the world. the problem is that effective population control is always looked upon as bad or monsterous.. (limit the number of children to a family, forced birth control) and yet nobody looks at the starving family that is having it's 3rd child after the 1st starved to death and the second has one foot in the grave already as doing anything wrong.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    3. Re:That's Not Population Control by Joe+Tie. · · Score: 2, Funny

      Wow, if they did that and my water purifier worked well enough, I might actually be able to land a job again!

      --
      Everything will be taken away from you.
    4. Re:That's Not Population Control by shokk · · Score: 1

      As a big supporter of population control, I feel I must respond to this. Population control is not about finding ways to kill existing people or even turning a blind eye to ways to save existing people from being killed. Population control is about trying to reduce the number of births. Once a person living their life, I don't think anyone in their right mind would say its in the best interest of humanity to let them die (and, please, let's not get into an abortion discussion here). The way to curb the population explosion is through economic, societial and educational reform.

      Once you've embraced the concept that Life is an inconvenience, it's pretty easy to apply that further. You're a short hop away from "reducing the surplus population" and ethnic cleansing. It's just easier for a people to get rid of the other people that might inconveniently thin their wallet either by being born into their family or keeping the oil from flowing in another country, than it is to responsibly deal with the situation. In the end it's all the same when you've denied someone a taste of existence.

      --
      "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."
    5. Re:That's Not Population Control by Velox_SwiftFox · · Score: 2

      Unfortunately, once you have taken the opposite stand you're on the other slippery slope towards banning birth control, penalizing people for not having enough children, et cetra, aren't you? Or even falling over the mental cliff of declaring morality trumps logic and the math of compound-interest population growth, in the worst case.

    6. Re:That's Not Population Control by LoRdTAW · · Score: 1

      He is really referring to nature's method of population control. Like it or not nature has inadvertently helped keep the population in check to a degree. Today we have the knowledge and technology to help predict and avoid disaster to a certain extent. But if you think screwing with the planets natural weather patterns for the sake of humanity you really have to sit back and think. What makes you think that changing the weather patterns that have been around since the birth of Earth is a good thing? This is just another example of mankind's quest to find ways to fuck with nature for a dollar all in the name of saving lives. It's a double edged sword with the potential to help humanity but at the same time could damage the planets weather patterns or worse.

      One good question is what if a hurricane that is about to sweep across Florida is accidentally diverted towards one or more of the countries of the gulf or South America? The loss of life would be massive compared if it just swept over Florida. Also what if it was used in the military? And who will regulate and control the corporations that control the weather? What about lawsuits or the possibility of damaging relations with other countries after a cat 3+ tornado ran them over during a tornado redirection operation that went astray.
      Bottom line is this BAD FUCKING IDEA. Nature has done fine in regulating weather since the birth of this planet, LEAVE IT ALONE!

    7. Re:That's Not Population Control by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He must have been using China's 'population control' system as a basis for his comments.

    8. Re:That's Not Population Control by MountainBoiler · · Score: 1
      For all you "population control" believers - did you know you could fit every single person on the planet inside the state of Texas? And give them each roughly 1600 sq ft (bigger than my house).

      The problem isn't population - it is resource allocation. Some regions (and thus the people inside it) will always have surpluses for a given resource. In many cases, that region will have a deficit for a different resource.

      Free market economies should balance this out. Except there are no free markets. There are cartels, tariffs, copyrights, patents, and other barriers to re-allocation of resources. Greed also gets in the way. Therefore, we have wars to balance out the barriers.

    9. Re:That's Not Population Control by shokk · · Score: 2

      No, there are exceptions to every rule. There are always exceptional cases where abortions, executions, murders, and military strikes are justified. But it is also key to remember that an exception is not something that we should come across every day. Mkaing everything an exceptions is where things break down onto one slope or the other.

      --
      "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."
    10. Re:That's Not Population Control by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the thing is that none of the home "brita" jugs really filter the water worth a damn. they really are only giant carbon blocks takingo out taste and odor with having a side effect of reducing some heavy metals. it does ZERO biological filtration and the things are more of a hazard to society than any benifit they give.

      if you want to do bio-filtration or sterilization... either boil the water for 10 minutes, or add bleach (non-flavored with ZERO additives) and let it sit 10 minutes or more.

      Adding chlorine to your water is the #1 thing that saves you. and there are idiots and morons screaming that it's bad for you out there....

    11. Re:That's Not Population Control by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Animals don't have babies if the food/water or environment does not have favorable conditions ... Yet humans still happily reproduce... in areas where they cant feed themselves they still happily hump along...

      The real problem with this is the pan-cultural concept of "sex drive" which has long been attributed to humans but never to animals. Most animals only have sex a few times a year, during whatever season is appropriate to the particular species. Some only do so once per lifetime! Yet humans, in a pattern that I am 100% convinced is driven by women, are largely convinced that sex is necessary 50 or 100 times a year, every year. I would very much enjoy reading an analysis of how and when this pattern of belief developed; there's really no logical reason for it. Until this pattern of belief changes, meaningful population control is impossible. Monkeys don't need condoms!

  23. bad idea, here's why by Stanley+Feinbaum · · Score: 1

    We do not know the consequences of our actions. That is why there has been a ban on human cloning. However a weather disaster could cause distruction on a much larger scale. Imagine a tornado flying through the streets of New York due to a weather modification mishap.

    The problem is we are already modifying the weather unintentially. Suv's with their horrible gas consumption and emissions, methane emissions from the cows of huge farms built where rain forests used to stand to supply Mcdonalds with beef. American culture has already thrown the environment out of wack!

    Also, modifying the weather would be like playing God, and for that we might be punished in ways I do not want to imagine. I'd hate for another world flood...

    --

    Stanley Feinbaum, professional journalist and master debater! God bless the USA!

    1. Re:bad idea, here's why by shepd · · Score: 1

      >Suv's with their horrible gas consumption and emissions

      This is the funny thing about those blanket statements. They aren't exactly true.

      Which has fewer emissions... Reliant K-Car or modern SUV? This applies to about all older vehicles. Today's SUVs really aren't the problem. It's the coal power stations, and countries like Cuba, which, due to American suppression, drive cars that cause so much pollution, it makes NYC a nice place to be in.

      If everywhere was like America, Japan, Canada, the EU, Australia, and other 1st world countries I've missed, everything would be OK. But everywhere ain't like it is here...

      --
      If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
    2. Re:bad idea, here's why by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 2

      We do not know the consequences of our actions. That is why there has been a ban on human cloning.

      No, the ban on human cloning has to do with appeasement of the right wing, people mistaking their own scientific illiteracy for something having to do with morality, and a medieval desire to control technological advancement that persists to this day. We never know the consequences of our actions. The Wright brothers certainly didn't forsee the 9/11 attacks- should they have stopped work on the airplane?

      However a weather disaster could cause distruction on a much larger scale. Imagine a tornado flying through the streets of New York due to a weather modification mishap.

      This strikes me as being much less than persuasive. Don't you think you're being a little alarmist? Wouldn't a tornado flying through New York incite public outrage and demand a massive reform of the budding weather modification industry? Wouldn't the government have already placed controls on the industry already to prevent this from happening in the first place? Can you even provide any credible explanation as to how this could even conceivably occur in any realistic sense? Worrying about forseeable consequences is one thing. Demanding a halt to technological progress because of a bad dream you had is another.

      The problem is we are already modifying the weather unintentially. Suv's with their horrible gas consumption and emissions, methane emissions from the cows of huge farms built where rain forests used to stand to supply Mcdonalds with beef. American culture has already thrown the environment out of wack!

      I don't like SUVs either (their headlights are always right in my rear view mirror) but how does our unintentional modification of the weather constitute an argument against intentionally modifying the weather? Maybe we can undo some of our unintentional modifications with intentional ones.

      Also, modifying the weather would be like playing God, and for that we might be punished in ways I do not want to imagine.

      Oh please, spare me from magical thinking! Sorry, you can't have a vaccine, because saving you would be "playing God"! Sorry, you'll have to stay in your wheelchair, because allowing nonreproductive cloning would be "playing God"! All throughout human history, technological progress has been slowed and delayed by superstitious people who worry that others are "playing God".

      I'd hate for another world flood...

      There never was a world flood, only overrated local floods.

    3. Re:bad idea, here's why by ateball3000 · · Score: 1

      I think you're over-analyzing the proposition. Think about all the good that could come from keeping natural disasters from densely populated regions, or watering under-fertilized crops. There would be limitations and restrictions to keep clients from monopolizing the system.

      And besides, we modify nature in the most passive ways: breeding new roses for instance. But no one complains about "playing God" when that came up. And what about 'predicting' the weather? I'd say that's as close to playing God as humans will get.

    4. Re:bad idea, here's why by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      • Also, modifying the weather would be like playing God


      Don't Doctors play god everytime they save someones life in the ER?
  24. environmentaly unsafe by TerraFrost · · Score: 1
    we cut down entire forests to suite our needs, but then, some time later, we find that doing so has endangered lots of species, and overall, has caused a lot of harm, in general. i would think this would do the same thing. we adjust the weather to fit our needs, and we really mess up everything that is suited to that particular weather pattern already. so i can see environmentals calling foul on this one...

    and not only that, but what about skywriters? there would be some tough, new competition there, hehe.

  25. Rockets Baby - yeah! by shrike99 · · Score: 0

    I've been flying small model rockets (OK, Estes stuff!) for a while now. Does anyone know what amounts of silver iodide, crystal size, etc that are needed to seed a cloud? I figure on putting some into the top tube (instead of a parachute) and launching at the nearest cloud! Ok, so it's stupid. Shaddap! I can dream can't I?

    --
    "Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchet
    1. Re:Rockets Baby - yeah! by smack_attack · · Score: 2

      If you can get that thing to 13K feet with a sizable load of silver iodide, you let me know :)

  26. WWII by jbolden · · Score: 2

    During the WWII bombing campains over German cities we managed to get fire tornados 8000 feet tall and 2000 degrees F whipping over cities. Even forgetting about nukes and just considering conventional weapons we have long passed any real military need to use natural weather to damage property.

  27. We have the ability, but must act responsibly by smack_attack · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This is an arguable item on many levels. I believe that because we can make a hurricane move away from the coast we should. An even better notion would be to calm the storm a bit and let it hit with a lessened force (this was actually tried in the 1970s with devestating effects, so perhaps trial and error should not occur near populous coasts).

    And for anyone who says we shoudl NOT modify the weather, I have a wakeup call for you. Your argument is weak because humans are always going to adapt their environment to suit their needs. This is human nature and it flies in the face of our ability to survive. Our natural instinct is to change our world in order to suit our needs, from changing arid land to farmland or building a shelter so that the rain does not soak us while we sleep. We are always going to seek ways to make our environment more appealing to us and this is just the next logical step in that direction.

    1. Re:We have the ability, but must act responsibly by DaveOnNet · · Score: 1


      Just because we will modify the weather does not mean that we should modify it. Let's not throw out arguments against being stupid just because there are stupid people.

      Changing the weather is probably a good idea, but if it isn't, we'll need a good reason not to change it. We're here to find that reason.

      --
      Rank comments and posts against each other at We-Rank.com
    2. Re:We have the ability, but must act responsibly by d_i_r_t_y · · Score: 2


      And for anyone who says we shoudl NOT modify the weather, I have a wakeup call for you. Your argument is weak because humans are always going to adapt their environment to suit their needs. This is human nature and it flies in the face of our ability to survive. Our natural instinct is to change our world in order to suit our needs, from changing arid land to farmland or building a shelter so that the rain does not soak us while we sleep. We are always going to seek ways to make our environment more appealing to us and this is just the next logical step in that direction.

      this doesn't mean we should do it. the desire to aggressively adapt our personal circumstances for self-benefit is a carryover from when we were actually subject to darwinian evolution. we passed that point of self-preservation long ago.

      civilisation is about accepting that the wellbeing of the environment and future generations has to take precedence over short-term benefit/financial gain. at present, the ecology of weather is beyond our capabilities, it is folly to conceive attempting to alter it.

    3. Re:We have the ability, but must act responsibly by smack_attack · · Score: 2

      the ecology of weather is beyond our capabilities, it is folly to conceive attempting to alter it

      And it will remain so if we choose to remain ignorant about our abilities.

    4. Re:We have the ability, but must act responsibly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We have no abilities. We don't know what we're doing and we're destroying this beautiful earth. The more we meddle and manipulate out of egosentric self-interest, the more force will hit us back. Karma is reality.

      If you think you can survive without mother nature, you're the one who is ignorant.

    5. Re:We have the ability, but must act responsibly by anethema · · Score: 1

      But what if diverting that hurricane cause two more hurricanes to devastate other coasts half way across the world. Weather been weather, you cant really tell untill you try it, and like you said trial and error can be dangerous.

      Wing beat of a butterfly and all..

      my 2c

      --


      It's easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.
    6. Re:We have the ability, but must act responsibly by d_i_r_t_y · · Score: 2

      better to be ignorant of what can be done than ignorant about the consequences, or just plain ignorant.

    7. Re:We have the ability, but must act responsibly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ignorance is Srength.

    8. Re:We have the ability, but must act responsibly by jandrese · · Score: 2

      Well, if we don't try it, how are we going to know if it is going to devistate the some other part of the world?

      In other words, what is worse: doing nothing and loosing New Orleans, or diverting the Hurricane, but possibly doing somehting to the environment, maybe even something bad?

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
  28. We will control the weather... the rich get richer by dagg · · Score: 2
    As soon as humans have the ability to stop a hurricane from hitting Louisiana, you know they will. If a hurricane is going to cost 10 billion dollars in damage, but it will only cost 500 hundred thousand dollars to steer the hurricane away, what do you think the insurance companies will do?

    At least, that is what the insurance companies will do the first dozen or so times. They will eventually get sued by the people that were adversely effected by the hurricane's new route. It'll all balance out, eventually. The rich will still get richer.

    --
    Sex - Find It
  29. Quatrain by bobtheprophet · · Score: 2

    Why should we use electricity?
    Our forefathers didn't need it to see
    What about those with whom the weather is at odds?
    Think of them, you insensitive clod!

    --
    Don't give me none of this "nature theme" business.
  30. hail suppression by phantomwolph · · Score: 1

    Here in Calgary, Alberta, Canada, the insurance companies pay part of the tab for seeding hail clouds to reduce the size and hardness of hail to reduce their costs for damage claims. In some cases it has helped wildlife and farm animals because birds and small animals have been killed in the past by large hail stones. In the 1980's there were several hail storms that cost the insurance companies millions of dollars but since they started seeding the clouds damage has been kept to a minimum

    1. Re:hail suppression by hailstop · · Score: 1

      Actually, the insurance companies pay the entire cost of the program. I'm one of the meteorologists who works on it each year.

  31. Yes by ChangeOnInstall · · Score: 1

    We should screw with the weather.

    Any undesired ramifications can be swept under the rug as effects of "global warming", which can easily be curtailed by passing laws restricting carbon dioxide emissions which can be controlled by reducing the size of automobile engines and/or increasing hunting limits on larger animals, such as elephants.

    I guess I'm really digressing here, as even talking about such consequences is irrational. Changing the "weather" every day couldn't possibly result in a "climate" change.

    --
    What has *science* done?!? -- Dr. Weird (ATHF)
  32. Indeed, there *will* be lawsuits. . . by kfg · · Score: 5, Insightful

    for "stealing" somebody else's rain. Not to mention the legal "oops" factor that happens when you nudge that hurricane just a liiiiiiiiiiiittle too far to the left.

    For other weather control in fiction you might want to check out Poul Anderson's "Orion Shall Rise."

    KFG

    1. Re:Indeed, there *will* be lawsuits. . . by lommer · · Score: 2

      Ya, but then could a government be liable for not diverting a hurricane when they had the capability? It's not that unreasonable a suggestion, especially when that decision costs lives...

      Scary thought...

    2. Re:Indeed, there *will* be lawsuits. . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      but what would be the proper forum for this? If someone in Illinois diverts a nasty on-coming storm north, and it completely stuffs Wisconsin with about 4 feet of snow, what court would Wisconsin try to sue for damages against Illinois? What if the storm also ended up causing even more significant effects in southern Ontario? Or, what if the storm persisted across the Atlantic and really trashed on Ireland and England a week later?

      The Law of Unintended Consequences seems to win out here...

    3. Re:Indeed, there *will* be lawsuits. . . by SEWilco · · Score: 1
      Well, you sort of steal someone else's rain. But if you make the ground wetter there will be somewhat more evaporation than before in that spot.

      There may be places such as Washington State with more than enough rain, where some more moisture could be allowed to go eastward. The reason there is so much rain is the mountains, and there are a lot of them -- do we have enough thermonuclear bombs for some nuclear engineering?

      • Let's see...
      • Washington is about 550 km long and 380 km wide.
      • Mean elevation 518m, highest 4392m.
      • Meteor Crater was 10-megaton blast which made a crater 1.2km by 180m deep.
      • A 20-megaton blast makes a crater about 2.2km by 240m deep.
      • Let's estimate a 20 MT crater on average is 1km wide and 150m deep.
      • To go the width of the state requires about 550 craters, to make one stripe 1km wide and about 1/4th the mean height of the state.
      • If a horizon-to-horizon distance is meteorologically significant, standing in the middle and making it flat on both sides is about 10km.
      • 550 craters for a 1km stripe... 10km needs 5,500 craters (looks like a flat valley flat up to the mountains which are visible from 100km away).
      • 10 km may look like a lot when standing in the middle, but that is 1/38th the width of the state. See any weather map with a weather front to see the scale of weather events.
      • 1/38th is near 1/40th, or 2.5 percent. Yeah, that should be measurable.
      • Making 5,500 20MT bombs is quite a task. And don't put the environmental impact statement there or it will fill in the whole valley.

      Answer: Not enough bombs. Have to hit Washington State with space rocks.

    4. Re:Indeed, there *will* be lawsuits. . . by Velox_SwiftFox · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Governments usually are pretty good at declaring themselves immune to liability, at least from their own citizens... but aside from that, diverting the hurricane, making that rain fall or not fall, moving that tornado's path, et cetra, are much more likely to result in claims than not doing so. IANAL but as I understand it, you can't be sued for not doing something if you didn't have a duty to do it. Even "Good Samaritan" laws that might protect you from being sued for accidently breaking someone's leg dragging him out of the way of a train don't let you get sued for not doing so. Along with the legal situation - if one of 40 farmers who could benefit from a weather modification caused it, only he and not the other 39 would be sued by the 10 farmers who were flooded instead - this pretty much means only governments could even consider the risks.

      Back when Hurricane Andrew (I think it was Andrew) blasted across lower Florida and flattened neighborhoods far from the ocean, I remember one victim who thought that thermonuclear weapons should have been used against the storm. "This hurricane could have been prevented!" he angrily insisted.

      Somehow I doubt he would have been happy if he had ended up instead being merely showered with moderate soggy nuclear fallout, but since a hurricane dissipates thermonuclear-bomb quantities of energy every few seconds, I really doubt much is ever really going to be done to divert them. Which is probably a good thing, since if hurricanes were suppressed, the lack of atmospheric mixing and droughts resulting would probably cause more damage than the storms themselves.

  33. Re:first post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You poor fool. Not only did you follow the link but you actually responded.

    girls = time * money
    time = money
    girls = money^2
    money = sqrt(evil)
    girls = sqrt(evil)^2
    girls = evil

  34. It's been tried. by CaptainCarrot · · Score: 5, Interesting

    And Lord, it wasn't good.

    --
    And the brethren went away edified.
  35. same article, 10000 years ago by geekoid · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    According to this article in today's Christian Science Monitor, science will be able to make significant changes in how weather systems effect you. More than simply standing under a tree, the technology will be available to 'build a house' to keep you dry, and warm. The big question is 'Should we?' 'Even if we can do this, is this something we really want to do?,' says groog, a vice president with Atmospheric and Environmental Research, Inc., who adds, 'Before we can really control our eniviroment, we have to be able to observe the weather and forecast the weather much better than we do now.'

    in short:
    in russia, the weather controls you!

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    1. Re:same article, 10000 years ago by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Okay, so you make a crappy joke, and don't even get it right. You must feel stupid. It's "In Soviet Russia"

  36. I don't know... but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    +5 Funny

    http://www.druglordsgame.com/index.php?ref=11953 2

  37. Make Hell Freeze Over... by The_Mutato · · Score: 2, Funny

    And then we will get a M$ distro of linux!
    Of course, the M$ programmers will be complaining about the unusually cold weather.

    1. Re:Make Hell Freeze Over... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, I get it, Macro$hit porgrammers r in hell, hahaha, vary funi, lolololololo :D::DD:D::DD:D::DDDD

      Well, randomly bashing Microsoft (did the article have anything to do with MS?) should earn you at least +2 funny and +1 insightful.

  38. Reminds me... by lirkbald · · Score: 1

    Of forest fires.

    The park service (or whoever it is that's in charge, I dunno) seems intent on supressing any little forest fire that comes along. Oh, we can't have fires, it'll hurt the trees, or it'll destroy homes, or something. Problem is, sooner or later you'll have a dry year, and a fire that gets out of control, and there's all the dead wood left over from the fires that didn't happen.

    So instead of lots of little fires that aren't likely to kill trees or do too much damage, you end up with a few really big ones that *do* cause damage, and a lot of it.

    There are lots of other examples of similar effects- trying to control beach erosion with breakwaters, and controlling flooding with levees are two examples that come to mind.

    Anyway, point is, *maybe* I'd think it was okay to try to redirect tornadoes and destructive storms and the like, but just deciding 'this is a vacation hotspot, it should never rain here' (or even something less drastic), is almost certainly not okay.

    1. Re:Reminds me... by HeyBob! · · Score: 2

      I was about to comment the same thing...
      There are many plants that require fires to enable their seeds to germinate. I'm thinking of all the fires recently in California. There's a certain bush there that needs small brush fires.

      here's just one link found through google:
      http://www.werc.usgs.gov/fire/shrubland.h tml

    2. Re:Reminds me... by cp99 · · Score: 2

      A more extreme case of this is Australia. There are whole ecosystems built around fire.

      With the introduction of other plants, there is a interesting cycle occuring. New plants insert themselves into Aussie forests, slowly taking over. Fire comes along. Aussie plants recover orders of magnitude faster and take back what they lost. Introduced plants slowly move back in.

      --
      Warning: Some ideologies on the Net are smaller than they appear.
  39. Quatrain by bobtheprophet · · Score: 1

    True, the population is too high
    To maintain order some will have to die
    How should we choose them, the poorest and the worst?
    Since it's your idea, how about you go first.

    --
    Don't give me none of this "nature theme" business.
  40. Natural vs. Artifical Selection by GuyMannDude · · Score: 2

    All of our medical technology has basically pulled us out of the Darwinian game of life. If it weren't for modern medicine, hemophilia would likely have been (nearly) eradicated by natural selection already.

    I realize with a name like "I'm a racist" that you're obviously a troll. But I'm going to reply for the benefit of others who might actually be swayed by your words.

    We haven't pulled out of the Darwinian game of life, as you put it. We're simply replacing natural selection with artifical selection. We, as a society, have decided that advancing our species solely on the basis of physical fitness is not in our best interest. So we're tipping the balance so that physical characteristics don't play such a dominant role in who gets to pass their genes on. Intelligent people who may be physically weak will still get a chance to live and pass on their genes. Don't give me this "that's not the way Nature intended" crap, either. It's our species and we certainly deserve the right to modify a system that, while successful in developing robust animals, doesn't really fit the needs of our civilization without a little help from us.

    GMD

    1. Re:Natural vs. Artifical Selection by I'm+a+racist. · · Score: 1

      Ummm... maybe we should be altering the selection process to our benefit. The way things are going now, we are taking the physical element out. The end result (ignoring possible genetic engineering) may be a crippled populace, where most people are born with some set of severe physical deficiencies.

      What we really should do is augment the selection process, so that it favors the physically and intellectually fit. That is what would best benefit mankind. Then again, why should you or I care anyway, we shouldn't expect live to see the fruits of such an endeavor, so what's the point? Might as well just say, "Fuck it, I'm gonna go get laid."

      If I were to bring up and suggest implementing eugenics, all the "tolerance trolls" will come out of the woodwork to flame my post ("Ooh, a racist promoting eugenics, evil!!!"). Thus, I haven't mentioned eugenics.

      --


      Down with Saudi Arabia!!!
  41. No way by FearUncertaintyDoubt · · Score: 3, Funny

    In fact, I'm writing a letter to my congressman to introduce legislation to prevent any butterflies from flapping their wings in Beijing. That ought to keep any crazy weather changes from happening.

  42. Is weather a public resource? by fleener · · Score: 1

    Hey, given that the FCC regulates TV & radio because our airspace belongs to the public.... does that mean we have rights to the weather conditions too? er, I mean, the federal government bureaucracy has rights to the weather? er, I mean, the federal government will begin taxing us for clouds in the summer and sunshine in the winter and rain when it's needed for the water supply?

    Anyhow, let me know when I can buy a Precipitation Suppression System to mount on the roof of my house to regulate my own chunk of air. I'm sure it will run XP, so also send me the link on how to hack it for Linux.

  43. Chaos by popmaker · · Score: 1

    Ever heard of chaos theory? The weather system has shown to be chaotic in it's worst sense. That, for example means that small effects can have HUGE consequences, and not only huge, but highly unpredictable. Now it's true that literally EVERYTHING on our little planet affects the weather in some way or another producing the apparent randomness of the whole lot. So if we invent technology tochange it, it wouldn't be of any consequence. I mean, some weather machine is just as likely to produce a catastrophe as a buttefly in Mexico. So why not, we could maybe control immediate catastrophes if we spot them in time (of course it's impossible to predict such things as tornados). But then, how can we be sure that any modifications of the weather will turn out as intended? It's not "well, now we press this button and this happens", it's rather "now we press this button, and... gee, who would have thought!". Anyway, it will be very interesting to see how this thing turns out.

    1. Re:Chaos by Dun+Malg · · Score: 2
      Taking advantage of the regularity that we discover in the chaos...

      Ther isn't any regularity in a chaotic system-- that's what makes it chaotic. Despite all the pie-in-the-sky predictions of weather control via "a nudge here or there", we do not, nor will we ever, have a means of acurately modeling (and thereby predicting) the weather. The problem with modeling chaotic systems is sensitivity to intitial conditions. What this means is that you can never have accurate enough starting data to seed the system. To paraphrase from James Gleick, even if you had an array of sensors one inch apart monitoring the atmosphere and oceans in all three dimensions, the unrecorded variations hidden by the one inch of empty space in between will cause a model to vary exponentially as time passes. Essentially, the only way you could accurately model the earth's weather is by copying the actual earth. Any other model will contain simplifications, averages, and assumptions that do not match reality and subsequently will cause the simulation to diverge from reality. Cloud seeding? Sure. Stopping a hurricane before it starts? Not a chance in hell.

      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
    2. Re:Chaos by darthBear · · Score: 2

      If the system is chaotic, as weather is, the most minute differences in our actions will have totally different results. In a simulation of a chaotic waterwheel I ran changing the flow rate from 0.01 to 0.010001 had a dramatic effect after very few iterations. We simply cannot predict the effect of an action on weather with any sort of reliability.

    3. Re:Chaos by DaveOnNet · · Score: 1

      Ok you're right. From the essay at duke:

      seemingly random systems produce patterns of spooky understandable irregularity.

      I meant Taking advantage of the patterns of spooky understandable irregularity that we discover in the chaos...

      --
      Rank comments and posts against each other at We-Rank.com
  44. Water rights by goombah99 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Water rights and international accords for allocating them are nothing new. Many river cross boundaries. Even bitter enemies (e.g. middle east) often can at least come to accomodations they can accept even if they protest them.

    On the other hand few things can get more bitter since the supply is inelastic and its use critical. We (the US) certainly dont give mexico one more drop of water than we absolutely have to.

    In the werstern US states more than the eastern US or in europe, Water rights are in fact more critical and more precious because the water distibution is paradoxically plentiful where it existis yet generally sparse. In fact its more sparse than the typical homestead land grant. hence in days of yore the guy that homsteaded around the water source effectively owned everything as far as he wanted to (or till the next watering hole) regardless of the actual property boundaries.

    In the US west we have very recently reached the elastic limit of the supply. Many places (e.g. santa fe new mexico) are pumping at an unsustainable rate (which by the way causes depletion that is also irrevrsable even if you quit pumping it). And california, which has routinely taken unused water rights form other sates can no longer do so and thus is actually going to experience not just a water limit but an actual deficit when those rights are asserted by others.

    So now we come to the final frontier: rain allocation. My guess its that the moment the amount of rain taken from the skys reaches a value that causes a depression of rainfall eleswhere that is detectable on the scale of the annual varialtion, perhaps like 1 or 2% of the available rain, then there's gonna be a show down.

    Since weather is generally west to east, the eastern states will be robbed. This also means it will propably show up first intra-nationally rather than internationally since in the americas the countries are mostly divided north-south more than east west (or when they are east-west there is a mountain range making the rain issue partly moot). Even europe may experience some pain because some scientist belive the gulf-stream is about to be overrun by colder artic "underwater" rivers. This should depress their expected rainfall. Good thing they formed the EU or theired be some fights.

    Interestingly specualtors are already buying up land in many northern US states on the assumption they may get some sort of water right allocation.

    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    1. Re:Water rights by goombah99 · · Score: 2

      It;s been my observation that there is alot of knee jerk reaction to water conservation. Surface Water is in fact a renewable resource. It's not like oil which we are using up or trees that we cut faster than they grow. This is not true of water pumped from the ground. Thus water supply like money supply is sometimes hard to measure. For example, when a ski-area uses water rights to make snow are they really using water up? in fact they are doing everyone a favor by actually retaining the transient water flow for use in the spring and summer. Never the less currently they do need to purchase water rights in most states. Similarly, if I flush my toilet with river water, run it through a septic system or water treatment and then return it to the water have I caused any loss of water. (are all those low flow toilets addressing the right problem?). What if I shower too long, have I changed the amount of water for those down stream. Certainly the media would make you think so. So surface water rights are realy about water distribution. The city of albuquerque basically has the entire rio grand river flowing out its taps and through its sewer and back into the rio grande. the river actually goes vitually dry as it passes near albuquereque. the governement is telling them they are killing the fish and the city cant figure out how to solve the problem since they cant create more water. But the solution is pretty obvious isn't it/ just pump the outflow back up to the inflow. (or maybe a wee bit below it. THis of course costs money, but solves the problem. Rainfall distribution is obviously a primary source issue. It is the purest source of water available (ignoring acid rain). Tampering with this alters distribution. This fact and not the taking of water is the crucial issue. In most of the US it is illegal to redirect water from one basin to another. You cant pump water across the continental divide. and this is generally true locally. The big exceptions are the arizona and california water projects.

      --
      Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    2. Re:Water rights by Malcontent · · Score: 4, Informative

      The water is not quite a closed system though. The water you flush down the toilet can not be put back into use until it has been treated so it's out of circulation for a while. Before it gets put back it also costs a ton of money to treat so the cost of the water put back into the system is much greater then before it was "used". These costs are not trivial and that's why it's better to use less water in the first place.

      Also factor in a porlonged draught and the draining of the aquifers and you get a water shortage which will cause all kinds of strife and civil unrest.

      For a prime example look no further then Oregon. The farmers had a bitter battle for water with the US govt until the Govt caved in and diverted water for farmland. Within two months it lead to a massive kill or salmon coming up the river to spawn which will effect salmon populations for years. The fishermen, indians, farmers, environmentalist, ranchers are now at each others throats all fighting over what little water there is left in the klamath basin. After years of mismanagement in the face of draught the people of Oregon now have to choose between farming and salmon. They can no longer have both.

      --

      War is necrophilia.

    3. Re:Water rights by Snafoo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Waitamoment. You're assuming that the supply of rain is inelastic. Recall, however, that those big white puffy things that become rain are in turn formed by evaporation from the surface of the ocean.Since weather control presumably works over the open water as well as it does over land, it is very likely that we could simply generate as much rain as we like by efficiently manipulating cloud-cover over open water. This could become the world's most powerful desalinisation tool.

      --
      - undoware.ca
  45. Um... Duh... by c0dedude · · Score: 2

    Tornados and hurricanes kill people. They are also fairly predictable. Change the weather, prevent tornados/hurricanes. In 1998 alone 23,000 lives wre lost to hurricane/tropical storm related causes.(source:Insurance Site) You want to tell families of victims we shouln't change the weather? This is about saving lives. If you don't change the weather, people die.

    --
    Since when has this country used intellectual elite as a pejorative term?
    1. Re:Um... Duh... by gl4ss · · Score: 2

      well, that's why we should ban all traffic too.

      and guns.

      seriously though, i have high doubts on them being able to stop 'bad weather' without crushing somebody others 'good weather'. .. getting a magic weather changing stick is pretty common plot in kiddy-comics.. always with the same ending, the character noticing that he can't give good weather for everyone.

      (i know nobody would consider hurricanes good weather, but like i said i got high doubts on them being able to remove them without seriously affecting things that were fairly predictable before, like raining seasons and such)

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
  46. sigh... by blaimue · · Score: 1

    one more thing to deplete mercilessly(sp?) then bitch and moan about in 50 years....

  47. Weather-based Warfare by jazir1979 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Is this the beginning of a time when countries can undertake weather-based warfare against others? Want to cripple the US economy? Just alter the weather patterns.

    I assume that weather-tinkering (for benefit) in one part of the world could easily change weather patterns (possibly in a bad way..) in other parts of the world. Who is going to decide what manipulations go ahead -- the more powerful economies?

    --
    What's your GCNSEQNO?
    1. Re:Weather-based Warfare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A future form of terrorism?

  48. Are you kidding me? by Drakonian · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I'm going to go out on a limb and say the potential benefit of this is bigger than any single item you can name. I think it's probably safe to say more people have died of drought and resulting famine than all other non-natural causes combined. Certainly more than war.

    People talk about lofty goals such as ending world hunger - this would go a long way. All though the dangers are unknown and possibly severe, I don't think there is a chance anyone will wait and see. They didn't with cell phones, and this would have a much larger impact.

    --
    Random is the New Order.
    1. Re:Are you kidding me? by jazir1979 · · Score: 1

      Perhaps the overall equilibrium would be maintained - "fix" weather conditions in africa, and you may find parts of the US being turned to desert.

      --
      What's your GCNSEQNO?
    2. Re:Are you kidding me? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm going to go out on a limb and say the potential benefit of this is bigger than any single item you can name.

      No. Love conquers all..

  49. Could come in handy on other planets; by Boss,+Pointy+Haired · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I know a lot of people get upset about screwing with nature, but as i've said above, technical progression in our wiring, you cannot stop us scientist types doing it.

    Perhaps knowledge gained through weather control could actually _SAVE_ our species, because we can use it to create a suitable environment when we populate other planets.

  50. Consider the marketing ramifications.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If they could make winter last all year they sure would sell alot of coats...

    --Beware the almighty THEY----

  51. presumptious by selectspec · · Score: 2

    The problems with this kind of hypothetical debate are the contradictory assumptions.

    If we assume that we will hypothetically understand enough to change the weather, why can't we also assume that we will hypothetically understand the consequences of such an intervention as well?

    So far mankind seems to be doing pretty well.

    --

    Someone you trust is one of us.

  52. A new form of weapon by neverkevin · · Score: 1, Redundant

    How about using the weather a new weapon? Why not send a hurricane, tornado, and floods to Iraq? What about Hail storms with basketball sized chunks of ice? America could finally get rid of all the evil on earth with out starting one war!

    but imagine if the terriorist got ahold of this technology? Oh my! We must fully develop and exploit this technology before the evil terrorist. Then we can sit back and start a huge database containing everyones credit card purchases. Damn, I love America.

  53. gee by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Good call there, numbnuts.

    We shouldn't do anything until we know what we're doing.

    +1 Insightful.

    Fucktard.

  54. significant changes ... in the next few decades. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The article gives one estimate of "at least 30 to 40 years away" and another of "perhaps 100 years out."

    I don't think we will be seeing significant change in the next few decades... At least none that we meant to happen.

  55. Don't label people who are protesting backfires as "environmentalists."

    See, I happen to be an environmentalist and I don't oppose backfires. Most environmentally conscious people don't. The people you heard about aren't environmentalists, they're idiots.

    I'd like to think there's a difference.

    --

    --
    the strongest word is still the word "free"
  56. CONTACT and thanks for all the fish by goombah99 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Relax and grab your towel, this is not new. Life forms on other planets have routinely attempted weather control when they become advance enough. Generally this is about 100 to 200 earth years after the discovery of radio technology.

    By the way, this is also why the Seti project has been completely unsuccessful at detection other life forms since they are all dead.

    It is also why, the people of planet beta-3 have told me to tell you earthbeings, not to fret about your water. they're going to exterminate you and water their lawns with your planet.

    have a nice day, so long and thanks for all the fish.

    --ford perfect.

    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    1. Re:CONTACT and thanks for all the fish by unicron · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      Hah-hah, newb. I chosen for beta-1 back when it used to crash your hard drive if you used the rocket launcher.

      --
      Finally, math books without any of that base 6 crap in them.
    2. Re:CONTACT and thanks for all the fish by MrScience · · Score: 2

      It's Ford Prefect. PREFECT

      Sheesh. Kids these days.

      "I think I'm going to go insane."
      "Nice day for it," said a passing maniac.
      "Who was that?"
      "Who? The man with the two heads and the elderberry bush full of kippers?"
      "Yes."
      "I don't know. Just someone."
      --Douglas Adams, "The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy"

      --

      You quitting proves that the karma kap worked. The most annoying of the whores shut up. --CmdrTaco

    3. Re:CONTACT and thanks for all the fish by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You bastard. It's Ford Prefect.

    4. Re:CONTACT and thanks for all the fish by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nobody's Perfect

  57. Best way to find out... by Gorimek · · Score: 2

    The best way to learn what the ramifications are has to be to go ahead and change the weather. If we don't like what happens, we can just change it back.

    No need to make this more complicated than it is.

  58. changing climate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting
  59. Of course we should do it... by Lardmonster · · Score: 2, Funny

    it's the only way we (England) are ever going to win the Ashes from the Aussies :-(

    --
    The more advanced the technology, the more open it is to primitive attack
  60. if the ability to change the weather can be used by the_2nd_coming · · Score: 1

    to counter act the effects of global warming then yes....infact, if they create some way to remove the exess CO2 in the atmosphere then hell yes.

    --



    I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
  61. This is all very silly! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    If we just put nice strong DOMES over our cities there wont be a problem...

    Look a raging hurricane... good thing the dome can withstand it!

    Dammit I was promisde domed cities back in the 70's.... where the hell are they!

  62. Why weather could make a better weapon than nukes. by I'm+a+racist. · · Score: 1

    Weather control could (potentially) be a better offensive/defensive weapon than tactical nukes because it won't leave an area irradiated. Hell, you could even use it on your own territory to impede an invading force.

    Fallout is some nasty shit, so's a nuclear winter. Biological agents have a high risk of unintended consequences. By comparison, most chemical weapons are pretty nice, they may require serious cleanup, but their effects are relatively predictable, and the usually do not render an area uninhabitable for extremely long times.

    This, of course, assumes that your control of the weather (and the associated consequences) does not cause destruction other than what was intended.

    --


    Down with Saudi Arabia!!!
  63. Darwin and population control by DaveOnNet · · Score: 1


    Didn't humans evolve to such a state by letting the monkeys that weren't clever get eaten by the lions?

    It seems to me that we humans had to do more than let the monkeys get eaten. From the lack of animals more like us, it seems that we must have done quite a job of killing off slightly weaker species - perhaps species that were slightly more intelligent but didn't have the time to develop defenses against brute force.

    When we started recognizing the value of diversity, we started backing away from the "nature" of unenlightened animal behavior: kill off anyone you don't know that uses the same resources you use. Some balance between strength and intelligence was optimal for defense and survival.

    As the rate of growth in our ability to leverage intelligence has increased, we've started valuing it more and the balance is shifting. I think that's great because it seems that intelligence brings happiness more effectively than strength. Evolution has labored merely to optimize survival but conscious beings labor to optimize happiness. When the two conflict, it is right for us to defy evolution.

    --
    Rank comments and posts against each other at We-Rank.com
  64. A world without Hurricanes by RevDigger · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Would be like a world without tigers. Safer, maybe, but less interesting.

    1. Re:A world without Hurricanes by isorox · · Score: 2

      A world without Hurricanes would be like a world without tigers. Safer, maybe, but less interesting.

      Yes, I'm sure that the citizens of Tikopia and Anuta considered their experience very interesting.

    2. Re:A world without Hurricanes by owke · · Score: 1

      Save the hurricanes !

      Support the london zoo breeding program.

    3. Re:A world without Hurricanes by (trb001) · · Score: 2

      I have no facts to go on, but I have to believe that a single hurricane caused more deaths per year than all the tigers on earth put together. And no, I won't consider gazelles in this body count.

      --trb

  65. Case for effects of Global Warming by vroeni_slaav · · Score: 1

    OK, I'll bite.

    Before anyone takes this seriously, it's circumstantial recollection, so your mileage may vary.

    I'm sitting in the UK at the moment. We have flooding. Quite severe flooding.

    Homes are being destroyed, impressive looking barricades are being erected in liable areas, and the most disturbing thing of all is that it seems to be becoming a trend. For an example, take a look at this. It's not normal.

    Perhaps we have had a particularly freakish decade? Perhaps the climate is changing. Hard to say -- I believe that global warming most certainly has something to do with all of this.

    I was snowboarding in Italy over Christmas this year. There was little to no snow on Rittner Horn in the dolomites. This was also the case last year when I was there.

    A friend, who has been going to that particular mountain for about 20 years, has consistently told me that it was once possible to ski down from his family's hut to the ski-lift, ride up, and ski back to the hut. When I was there, this was patently not possible, but this story was backed up by many people with whom I spoke.

    It can't be that global warming has no effect.

    1. Re:Case for effects of Global Warming by gearheadsmp · · Score: 1

      Bah. Forget the harder-to-prove things. Go for easy things that are obvious like smog over major metropoliton areas such as Los Angelos, and the fact that during period after 9-11 when civilian air traffic was halted that temperatures dropped. Then again, those could be signs of global warming. But they're easier to prove to be caused by Humans than say, El Nino in North America.
      You could easily start doing things that qualify as "changing the weather" by building cars that not only qualify for zero-emissions standards, but have onboard air cleaners to get rid of the smog.

    2. Re:Case for effects of Global Warming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Funny, it got colder in september. You'd almost think we were in the northern hemispher.

      You stupid shit.

    3. Re:Case for effects of Global Warming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Funny if you could think logically, but since you kind of forgot that most meterologists keep records on the high, low, etc temperature of every day of the year for more than fifty years, oh well.

    4. Re:Case for effects of Global Warming by holysin · · Score: 1

      Of course scientists have said (many times) that the earth goes through periods of warming and cooling, it's possible we are only speeding up this process... Now what I'd like to know is if all these weather manipulating attempts are causing this F-ed up weather, and not so much the cars... (here in California the emission standards are just insane)

    5. Re:Case for effects of Global Warming by DEBEDb · · Score: 2

      It could be, like, a COINCIDENCE. It's not
      like you had 100 air-traffic stoppages in that
      period and they consistently yielded lower
      temperatures than without those (and try
      to factor in different levels of pollution -
      how do you measure that? In different parts
      of the world? Blablabla)

      --

      Considered harmful.
    6. Re:Case for effects of Global Warming by ShinmaWa · · Score: 1

      I remember in the late 70's, after a few years of particularly harsh winters dating back to the mid-60's, that the environmentalists and many "top scientists" were predicting another ice age by the year 2000 because of pollution. The rivers were going to freeze and the arctic ice cap was going to extend as far south as Toronto. You might remember all these theories and hype if you think hard enough. I certainly do.

      During the 80's and through the 90's the weather warmed up, and suddenly that same pollution that was causing global COOLING was now causing global WARMING.

      The problem with your argument is that you've taken two points of sample (20 years ago and this year), and determined that it had to be because of "global warming", rather than perfectly normal fluctuations in weather patterns.

      In either case, I'm predicting that the earth will start to see cooler weather again in about 2015 or so. I also expect the scientists and experts will either a) applaud themselves on how they saved the world or b) find some other human wrong that is accounting for the sudden freezing of our planet.

      --
      The /. Effect: Thousands of users simultaneously accessing a site to not read its content.
    7. Re:Case for effects of Global Warming by Herkules · · Score: 0

      Hey if you think science is made up of a bunch of people who don't know shit that's your problem!

      But things like the permafrost that is thawing in Alaska is happening!

      "same pollution that was causing global COOLING was now causing global WARMING." And no! The cooling was based on dustparticals and the Warming is based carbondioxid.

      --
      CIA Factbook 2002 (US):"Since 1975, practically all the gains in household income have gone to the top 20% of households
    8. Re:Case for effects of Global Warming by slntnsnty · · Score: 1

      quoted from Article

      "MINNEAPOLIS (AP) The past few snowless, warm winters could be the beginning of a long cycle of milder winters in Minnesota, similar to an era in the 1920s when a stretch of warm winters lasted into the next decade, a meteorologist said."

      You don't suppose for an instance that the weather, just like everything else on this planet is cyclic? Maybe I am just being silly, but I do not know that we really have enough data to prove global warming.

    9. Re:Case for effects of Global Warming by kfx · · Score: 1

      Not coincidence, and not global warming either. Aircraft create contrails which function as clouds... with less cloud cover less of the sun's heat is blocked in the day (making it hotter) and less that reflected from the surface is retained in the atmosphere at night (making it colder then). Simple meteorology people, not magic.

  66. Nope by geek · · Score: 2

    Why should we? Are we so arrogant now that we think we can do a better kob than nature? Nature has 4 billion years of experience, why mess with it?

    It's not like we need to change anything. If you want to help people then make better ways of predicting nature to avoid hurricanes and monsoons. Don't go messing with nature and playing god.

    1. Re:Nope by geekoid · · Score: 2

      'Nature' makes people with heart problems, should we let them die because it is interfering with nature?

      What about roads?damns?what id a meteor is going to impact the earth, should we let it?

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:Nope by geek · · Score: 2

      Helping people with heart trouble doesn't effect the entire global eco system. Your argument is moot at best, ignorant at worst.

    3. Re:Nope by curious.corn · · Score: 1

      Buddy, think about your statement next time you take an antibiotic. Afterall why should you interfere with a bunch of bacteria wasting your bowels, if that's god's will ;-)

      --
      Mi domando chi à il mandante di tutte le cazzate che faccio - Altan
    4. Re:Nope by geek · · Score: 2

      I'm a Buddhist I don't believe in a god, and me taking an antibiotic has nothing to do with the global ecosystem and the possible effects it could have on billions of people, not to mention the other species on this planet.

      Think about YOUR statement "Buddy".

    5. Re:Nope by curious.corn · · Score: 1

      Man take it easy. Nature isn't a pretty godess to worship and adore, not only. Pretty bad things can happen to humans living at her whim unshielded by air conditioners and grocery stores down the block. Shall I enumerate the shit many africans have to endure because of the damn weather patterns of their continent? I'm not an extremist so I will take notice if novartis wants to fuck with biodiversity for it's nyse rating but I think that messing with nature keeps us from dying like fruit-flies.

      Next, all animals have survival tools evolved in thousands of generations: gazzelles have speed and trajectory variation, lions play in group like wolves and hyenas, while leopards bet on speed. Anyone of these species best us on their specialty except for one, that's ours: intelligence. Why should we give it up?

      Back on topic: messing with weather sounds a bit far fetched; great improvements could be achieved if we got rid of the logistical obstacles that keep africa hungry: principally war, from that follows the social stability that makes transport, economic exchange and material condition improvement possible. Easier that playing StarTrek science.

      --
      Mi domando chi à il mandante di tutte le cazzate che faccio - Altan
  67. The reason we don't do this now: by veritron · · Score: 0

    The technology for changing the weather already exists. However, imagine the liability if a hurricane-seeding program changed the path of a hurricane from going through an empty field to going through a major U.S. city by accident. The weather service would get its pants sued off. Similarly, what happens if they don't seed a hurricane in a particular incidence and someone dies? Other weather controlling initiatives have similar problems. It's why we'll likely never see weather-changing technology used for civilian benefit. The above is also a reason why something is SERIOUSLY awry with the U.S. legal system.

  68. Speaking as a Evil, Mad Scientist... by NoMoreNicksLeft · · Score: 2

    I am making great progress on my weather control device, and I don't see any significant issues that should delay such wonderful mayhem! If it makes people more comfortable though, I will blackmail the world's goverments into abandoning all weather research (among other things). That way, you'll know that weather catastrophe-causing machines will only be in the possession of responsible people like myself and my henchmen.

    BTW, CmdrTaco, if you are interested, I wouldn't mind at all doing a Slashdot interview, answering the 10 highest moderated posts/revenge requests. Slashdotters, if you're interested in seeing someone's house torn to shreds by preternatural tornados, or small tropical island nations decimated by a freak hurricane, just let Taco know you'd like Slashdot to interview me. And make those requests interesting and malevolent!

  69. Chaos by DaveOnNet · · Score: 3, Insightful


    "Chaotic" does not mean random, so it does not mean that ramifications will never be known. We may find conditions in which something we can do will very regularly (and perhaps through magnification of effects - chaos that is) increase rainfall or evaporation off the ocean in some area. Taking advantage of the regularity that we discover in the chaos will not prevent us from seeing the ramifications of our actions.

    --
    Rank comments and posts against each other at We-Rank.com
  70. Not real science. by pclminion · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Science requires controlled conditions. Suppose you were trying to prove that cyanide gas kills fruit flies. So, you put some flies in a jar, hit them with cyanide, see them die, and write a paper. No respectable scientific journal would publish your work, because you didn't have a control. You should have had another jar, where the fruit flies were not given cyanide. Otherwise there is no way to establish a causal link between the cyanide and the deaths of the flies.

    This problem makes it extremely hard to do weather modification in a scientific way. We don't have access to a "control atmosphere." There is no fixed reference point to compare results against. We can never tell if our manipulations were the true cause of the effects we observe. And if we perform experiments in closed laboratory conditions, then we are no longer studying the real atmosphere by definition.

    If we gave serious thought to large-scale weather modification, we'd be insane. We only have one atmosphere. Not only is it unscientific, it's dangerous.

    1. Re:Not real science. by grandmaster_spunk · · Score: 1

      Whether or not we call it "science" is hardly the point. Perhaps weather modification is not, strictly speaking, "scientific." However, it may still be a reality, and may still be a technology worth pursuing. I stress MAY, since I do think it's important that we proceed carefully and make sure that we understand what we're doing before we do it.

    2. Re:Not real science. by Virtex · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I see it a bit like drug testing. If you give a drug to one person and a placebo to another, you can't really draw any conclusions from it since the two people aren't identical. So what you do is conduct the test on a larger population and draw upon the overall differences between the groups. Weather testing could be performed in a similar manner by choosing a number of locations and testing the technology on some now, and some later. If things go well, the results should show an overall difference between the two groups.

      --
      For every post, there is an equal and opposite re-post.
    3. Re:Not real science. by GenetixSW · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You have a very interesting point there, but I partially disagree, at least when it comes to comparing our results from the "control".

      Our control condition would be, more or less, all past meteorological data. Sure, it changes drastically from day to day, but it's still fairly periodic on an annual basis.

      A profound effect on the weather would be measurable and very easily noticeable. Say we manage to increase the rainfall in a region: we'd see a markedly increased rainfall which would then become the norm after several years. This rainfall might possibly adversely affect water levels elsewhere, which would also be measurable.

      That's a simplistic example, but my point is we'd still have a basis for comparison, so in effect we would have some form of control condition.

    4. Re:Not real science. by Kargan · · Score: 1

      As far as the "control atmosphere" is concerned, I think you'll see things just like this residing on supercomputers as a result of projects akin to the NEC Earth Simulator.

      --
      Palaces, barricades, threats, meet promises
    5. Re:Not real science. by pclminion · · Score: 2
      A profound effect on the weather would be measurable and very easily noticeable. Say we manage to increase the rainfall in a region: we'd see a markedly increased rainfall which would then become the norm after several years. This rainfall might possibly adversely affect water levels elsewhere, which would also be measurable.

      Ahah, you spotted the point that I left out. In addition to being controlled, experiments have to be repeatable. I can repeat the experiment with the flies and cyanide gas (to a limit, they aren't exactly the same flies). But it's impossible to repeat an atmospheric experiment. You can't arrange it so the temperature gradient is precisely so, and the wind is blowing in a particular direction, and the cloud cover is the same as before, etc. Even if you could get vaguely similar conditions to repeat an experiment, the atmosphere is so sensitive to initial conditions that the results would be nearly meaningless if you are considering longer time spans (like days).

      We can manipulate the atmosphere and observe what occurs but this isn't strictly a repeatable, controlled scientific experiment. I suppose you could call it circumstantial evidence. But definitely not hard proof of anything.

    6. Re:Not real science. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Real Science? It had a link to the CHRISTIAN SCIENCE JOURNAL! No Real Science comes from there!

    7. Re:Not real science. by girouette · · Score: 1

      Don't reduce science to one experimental protocol. Anyone who is testing a theory by using it to make a prediction, then devising a reproducible experiment to test that prediction, is doing science.

      Control groups can be one means to that end, but they are not the only one.

      Einstein predicted gravity would bend light. The effect was accurately observed during a solar eclipse. No control group required.

    8. Re:Not real science. by pclminion · · Score: 2
      I'm not reducing science itself, but scientific experimentation, to a protocol.

      Einstein predicted gravity would bend light. The effect was accurately observed during a solar eclipse. No control group required.

      But that isn't an experiment. It is an observation. The observers didn't perform any manipulations, thus there is no possiblity to control the environment. I'm content with science's use of passive observations in cases where no direct experimentation is possible, but actual experiments involving manipulation should be subject to extremely stringent repeatability requirements, as well as control requirements. IMHO.

    9. Re:Not real science. by arriya · · Score: 1

      Choosing a number of locations? We do have only one atmosphere and weather conditions in different places are interrelated. When you pull a few earths out of your back pocket, then we can start testing.

      And even supposing that weather systems were not interconnected, the weather is common to everyone. Who makes the decision about whether the weather can be changed in any area? You can't own the weather.

    10. Re:Not real science. by Kintanon · · Score: 2

      So saying, "I think putting a big turbine here and blowing lots of wind REALLY hard at the hurricance will move it." and then doing it and haveing it work/not work is not science to you? What if you do it 100 times and compare your observations? Is that enough for you to consider it science? All an experiment is is observation of a phenomenon after you have altered the conditions.

      Kintanon

      --
      Check out JoshJitsu.info for Brazilian Ji
  71. Oh come on by geek · · Score: 2

    If the land you are living on is no longer habitable then move the hell away! People who die in droughts are people subject to natural selection. If you want to live in a barren desert wasteland then don't bitch about the consequences and sure as hell don't be hitting me up for pocket change so you can live there.

    There is no reason to muck with the weather because some people don't get it and move to places that can actually sustain life.

    Whats next? Designer weather patterns? "Look it's North Dakota and we can all go out on our slippin slides in January."

    Nature does a fine job. Fuck with it at your own peril.

    1. Re:Oh come on by pnatural · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Fuck with it at your own peril.

      No, fuck with it at our peril.

    2. Re:Oh come on by cranos · · Score: 2

      It always amazes me when people try to apply Darwinian theory to humanity. For other animals fine but the problem with humans is that we know the theory and have turned it on its head.

      As to your comment about the people starving in famines being victims of natural selection, I respectfully put it to you that you blow it out your arse. Its a bit hard to move when some tin pot shit head of a general is ordering that anyone who tries to leave is to be shot. Or the army and rebels are both trying to steal your kids to fight their dirty wars.

      Its not fucking natural selection, its just human bastadry

  72. It's worth a try by nomadicGeek · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I know that the logical question is "should we?" There are bound to be some consequences that we don't understand but what better way to try to understand than to experiment?

    If we proceed carefully, I think that it is unlikely that we will cause any disturbances that are more catastrophic than a volcanic eruption or other large natural event. The world always seems to recover from these events.

    If we do gain more understanding and are able to tune our weather the benefits could be enormous. Imagine steering hurricanes away from population centers or directing a little rain to an area that needs it or directing it away from an area that is already flooding.

  73. controlled rain and agriculture by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    with the ability to create rain or wind, we could revolutionize our methods of getting food.

    Think: a (many decade long of course) plan to make the sahara arable? The consequences of this are obvious - we'd be destroying habitats, possibly changing weather patterns worldwide, but the benefits are staggering. if, through controlled weather, we could change deserts to green pastures, we could, what? double? triple? our worldwide agricultural production.

    1. Re:controlled rain and agriculture by blaimue · · Score: 1

      and double or triple our population problem as well...

  74. Why stop now? by Jeremi · · Score: 2
    --


    I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
  75. yes.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    but only when i go outside

  76. study climate changes by ArchieBunker · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The earth has been heating and cooling for hundreds of thousands of years. Ice ages have come and gone before and now we are just in a warming trend. The truth is humans have inhabited the planet for a very insignificant speck of time and we still know very little about the planet. Why is the center liquid? What causes magnetism? Its a theory, someday it could be proven either way.

    --
    Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
    1. Re:study climate changes by the_2nd_coming · · Score: 1

      the magnetic feild of the planet is casued by the circulation of liquid iron in the mantle.

      the center is liquid becasue of the heat and pressure.

      of course those are theories :-)

      --



      I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
    2. Re:study climate changes by aristotle-dude · · Score: 2, Funny

      Last time I visited the center of the earth, I found out the earth has a gooey nougat center. :)

      --
      Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
  77. Ursula Le Guin... by Rubel · · Score: 1

    also talked about this in The Wizard of Earthsea, where the wizards had to deal with a certain "conservation of weather" -- bringing rain to one place would bring drought to another, and so on. A lot of the philosophy espoused in those books is related to the Tao De Ching, of which she did a translation.

  78. Heresy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What!??!! An article not from the NYT? Heresy!

  79. I'm sorry... by rcs1000 · · Score: 2

    But even with all the hurricanes in the world, England would still fail to win. Maybe a drawn series is a possible...

    --
    --- My dad's political betting
    1. Re:I'm sorry... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd settle for a drawn game :(

  80. OT:Population Control by lommer · · Score: 1

    "Population control is about trying to reduce the number of births."

    I find one thing aggravating about this. When people make this statement, they often neglect to mention that this applies only in countries where the birth rate is way out of control (e.g. Kenya which used to have avrg. 8 kids/woman). In other, developed countries (e.g. Europe, N. America) there is no harm in having 2-3 children/couple to maintain a sustainable population. Currently, the populations in these countries are drastically shrinking and are only kept afloat by immigration. This is bad because, as a few recent studies have shown, there is a lower percentage of children comprising the total populations of these countries. As far as I am concerned, that is a very bad thing.

    end rant. sorry for the OT post.

  81. IN SUPPORT OF OLD KIKE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    De Federale Beleidsverklaring

    Brussel, 8 oktober 2002

    Mijnheer de voorzitter
    Waarde Collega's

    België is vandaag het vierde welvarendste land ter wereld. Ik zeg dat niet. Het zijn de Verenigde Naties die dat zeggen, laatst in augustus. Noorwegen is het meest welvarende land van allemaal. Canada is het tweede, Zweden het derde. En als vierde volgt België.

    Ik zeg dit meteen, als tegengif voor de waan van elke dag. Het is niet omdat de aandelenbeurs in het eigen drijfzand wegzinkt, dat de economie verdrinkt. Het is niet omdat een ramkraak slaagt, dat heel het politie- en justitie-apparaat faalt. En het is niet omdat sommigen vanuit hun oude communautaire loopgraven elkaar blijven jennen, dat het land op springen staat.

    Ik gun ieder zijn persoonlijk recht op verzuring. Maar ik gun de verzuurden België niet.

    Ik zeg niet dat de tijden gemakkelijk zijn. Ik zal ook nooit zeggen dat het in ons land niet beter kan, dat er niets moet veranderen. In een wereld die verandert is stilstaan achteruitgaan. In de Wetstraat gold te lang een ander princiep. Dat er niets moest veranderen, wanneer het goed ging. En dat er niets kon veranderen, wanneer het slecht ging.

    Paarsgroen heeft met die houding gebroken. Wij hervormen omdat de wereld razendsnel evolueert. Wij pakken de problemen aan. Vernieuwen vinden wij vanzelfsprekend. Niets doen en kniezen is achterhaald.

    Ik moet een fabel uit de wereld helpen, een hardnekkige fabel. Er is vele malen beweerd dat dit kabinet surft op de golven van de hoogconjunctuur. Cijfers bewijzen dat dit onjuist is. De vorige legislatuur groeide de Belgische economie met bijna 10 %. In deze legislatuur zal het, door de terugval na 11 september, 8 % zijn. Het is dus niet waar dat wij meer hebben kunnen doen, omdat er meer geld was. We hebben gewoon méér gedaan.

    Wij hebben België vooral fitter gemaakt. In de jaren negentig lag de Belgische groei stelselmatig achter op die van onze noorderburen. De voorbije jaren is die identiek. In de jaren negentig hadden wij van de hoogste begrotingstekorten in Europa. Vandaag zijn wij temidden van onze buurlanden Duitsland, Frankrijk en Nederland het enige land zonder begrotingsdeficit. In de jaren negentig spendeerde de overheid gemiddeld 52 % van het nationaal inkomen. Vandaag is dat 48,3 %. De werkloosheid in ons land ligt vandaag, ook na de recente stijging, nog altijd een kwart lager dan in 1998, een stuk onder het Europees gemiddelde.

    Nogmaals, ik zeg niet dat er geen problemen zijn. De internationale economische situatie is uitermate broos. De trage groei van 2001 zet zich ook dit jaar door. We beleven de sterkste conjunctuurvertraging sedert een decennium. De vooruitzichten voor 2003 zijn moeilijk te voorspellen. Conjunctuuranalisten publiceren voor ons land groeicijfers tussen 1,8 en 2,8 %, maar passen die voortdurend aan. Economen strijden om de vraag of het grootste risico vandaag deflatie of inflatie is.

    De economische onzekerheid wordt gevoed door de internationale situatie. De Verenigde Staten wensen desnoods met geweld een einde te maken aan het arsenaal van chemische, biologische en mogelijk ook nucleaire wapens van Saddam Hoessein. Het perspectief op een oorlog verlamt het internationaal economisch herstel.

    Ik wil er geen twijfel over laten bestaan: Saddam Hoessein is een gewetenloos dictator. Op 17 maart 1988 dropten Iraakse vliegtuigen bommen met cyaankali op Halabja in Noord-Irak. Vijfduizend mensen stierven alleen al op die dag. Saddam Hoessein beschikt zeker over chemische en biologische wapens. En hij heeft ballistische raketten om die buiten de grenzen van Irak te sturen. Saddam Hoessein heeft lak aan internationale rechtsregels. In de 23 jaar overviel hij twee van zijn buurlanden. Ruim een miljoen mensen betaalden zijn ambitie met hun leven.

    De Verenigde Staten dreigen met een militaire interventie. De angst na de aanslagen van 11 september drijft hen. Het vertrouwen in hun leger na de campagne in Afghanistan is groot.

    Wij Europeanen geloven niet in puur militaire oplossingen. Wij verkiezen de diplomatieke middelen en de toepassing van de internationale rechtsregels. Wij willen dat de internationale gemeenschap eerst alle vreedzame middelen uitput. Daarom moeten de wapeninspecteurs van de Verenigde Naties onvoorwaardelijk en onbelemmerd hun werk kunnen doen. Ook die weg kan eindigen in militaire inzet. Maar laten we alles doen om dat te vermijden. En we kunnen dat vermijden als Europa met één stem spreekt.

    Snel duidelijkheid verschaffen is in ieder geval essentieel. Een strikt tijdskader voor de VN-inspecteurs en voor hun rapportering is noodzakelijk. Of daar nu een nieuwe VN- resolutie voor nodig is of niet, is van ondergeschikt belang. Wat deze crisis nodig heeft is dat ze snel achter de rug is. Overigens zal pas dan de verlammende onzekerheid in de internationale economie verdwijnen.

    Mijnheer de voorzitter, collega's

    Politiek is kiezen, vooral in moeilijke tijden. Wij, als regering, hebben met deze begroting die keuzes gemaakt. We hadden er ons eigenlijk gemakkelijk kunnen van af maken door gewoon een aantal maatregelen en hervormingen terug te schroeven, zoals vele andere landen dat hebben gedaan. Of we hadden er ons vlug door kunnen slaan door net genoeg maatregelen te treffen om het evenwicht op de begroting te bereiken, zonder nieuwe impulsen, zonder nieuwe initiatieven.

    Wij kiezen voor een andere aanpak. Wij kiezen voor een begroting in evenwicht die èn de beloofde hervormingen handhaaft, maar ook een nieuwe reeks impulsen verschaft die noodzakelijk zijn op sociaal en economisch vlak.

    Bij het bepalen van de uitgangspunten van de begroting zijn we voorzichtig gebleven. Zonder in paniek te geraken. Zonder te vervallen in overdreven pessimisme. Wij kiezen voor een groeiprognose van 2,1 %. Dat is een half procent onder de voorspellingen van de Nationale Bank en het Planbureau. Wij nemen dus, net zoals vorig jaar, een veiligheidsmarge. En voor diegenen die roepen dat we niet voorzichtig genoeg zijn: dat is zelfs een tiende procent beneden de voorspelling van het Internationaal Muntfonds. Het kan, net zoals vorig jaar, te weinig zijn. Dan zullen we, net zoals vorig jaar, tijdig bijsturen. Maar we mogen ons nu niet laten verlammen door angst. Want dan verlammen we onze economie.

    Evenmin hebben we gebruik gemaakt van de versoepeling van de begrotingsnormen aangereikt door de Europese Commissie. We mikken opnieuw op een evenwicht. Voor het vierde opeenvolgende jaar krijgen pasgeboren kinderen in België geen nieuwe schulden mee. In 1990 was dat nog 1500 euro per kind. Einde 2003 zullen we voor het eerst met zijn allen meer verdienen dan het bedrag van de totale overheidsschuld. Voor het eerst in twintig jaar.

    We kiezen dus, anders dan onze buurlanden, niet voor nieuwe tekorten. Integendeel, we leggen volgend jaar opnieuw 625 miljoen euro opzij voor het Zilverfonds.

    De begroting in evenwicht verhindert niet dat we alle geplande hervormingen trouw uitvoeren. Zo handhaven we integraal de belastingverlaging. De economische motor sputtert dan wel, maar hij is niet stilgevallen. Er bestaat met andere woorden geen beter moment om de inkomens van de bevolking te ondersteunen.

    Trouwens, alle belastingbetalers zullen er op vooruit gaan, zeker de kleinste. Vanaf januari gaan de mensen dat iedere maand merken. De crisisbelasting verdwijnt volledig. De helft van het inkomen wordt de maximumgrens voor de fiscus. Mensen met lage lonen krijgen een toeslag via een belastingkrediet. Alleenstaande ouders krijgen meer door de verhoogde aftrek voor kinderen. Mensen met een lager of modaal inkomen zullen hun loon met tientallen euro's per maand zien stijgen. En de eerste stap in het wegwerken van de fiscale discriminatie tussen gehuwden en samenwonenden wordt gezet. Belastingen verlagen en deze meer rechtvaardig maken, is ook een vorm van sociaal beleid.

    Wij gaan ook door met het hervormen van de vennootschapsbelasting. Vanaf 1 januari is ons tarief niet langer het hoogste van Europa. En de KMO's krijgen extra-zuurstof voor hun nieuwe investeringen. Volgende lente gaan we die hervorming uitdragen. Naar investeerders, in Singapore, Hong Kong, New York, Londen of Frankfurt. België moet opnieuw ruimte creëren om te ondernemen.

    Beide belastinghervormingen laten ook toe een overdreven stijging van de loonkosten te vermijden. Onze bedrijven dreigen anders te verhuizen. Buitenlandse bedrijven dreigen anders weg te blijven. Dat is niet het antwoord op de grotere jobzekerheid die de mensen ons vragen. Anderzijds zou ik liefst een wettelijk ingrijpen in de loonvorming vermijden. Daarom roep ik de sociale partners, de sectoren en de bedrijven op zelf hun verantwoordelijkheid op te nemen.

    Dit is ook het moment voor werkgevers en werknemers om te kiezen voor durf en creativiteit inzake de organisatie van de arbeid bijvoorbeeld, de kwaliteit van het werk, het uitbouwen van pensioenfondsen of werknemersparticipatie. Sociale partners kunnen ook kansen creëren, en zo bijdragen tot een beter België.

    Op 1 januari verlossen we de ondernemingen van veel paperasserij. Vijftig formulieren, elk verspreid op één miljoen exemplaren, worden volgend jaar overbodig. Dankzij de vereenvoudigde elektronische aangiften voor de sociale zekerheid. Massa's dubbelwerk en overbodige briefwisseling, en een pak langdurige administratieve procedures zullen verdwijnen met de Kruispuntbank voor ondernemingen en het uniek ondernemingsnummer. En tegen 1 januari 2004 gaan we het aantal banenplannen drastisch reduceren om de doeltreffendheid ervan te verhogen. Het werk aan het voedselagentschap en aan Copernicus wordt onverminderd verdergezet.

    We voeren dus onverkort uit wat we beloofd hebben.

    Tegen de verwachtingen in zijn we met deze nieuwe begroting nog een stuk verder gegaan. Initieel planden we 1 miljard euro besparingen. We hebben echter meer gedaan. We hebben 1,5 miljard euro bespaard. We hebben ruimte vrijgemaakt voor nieuwe impulsen, nieuwe initiatieven. We hebben bewust gekozen voor maatregelen die we sociaal, economisch en ecologisch absoluut de moeite vonden. En anders dan in het verleden hebben we de heikele dossiers niet doorgeschoven tot na de verkiezingen. Dit is een begroting die keuzes voor de toekomst maakt. Een begroting die een visie belichaamt.

    Dat vertaalt zich in tal van nieuwe initiatieven op sociaal, op economisch vlak, in de overheidsbedrijven en de wetenschappelijke instellingen en met betrekking tot onze gemeenten.

    Sociaal willen we de meest kwetsbare mensen beter helpen. Het stelsel van de kinderbijslagen voor ernstig zieke en zwaar gehandicapte kinderen wordt verbeterd. Vrouwelijke zelfstandigen zullen kunnen genieten van een verdubbeling van de zwangerschapsvergoeding. De pensioenen van voor 1995 worden welvaartsvast. De minimumpensioenen voor loontrekkenden en voor zelfstandigen worden voor de tweede maal verhoogd, wat hun totale stijging sinds het begin van deze legislatuur op 10 procent brengt. En vanaf nu zullen ook mensen met een gemengde loopbaan op dat minimum recht hebben. Verder zetten we een eerste stap in het afbouwen van de penalisatie van zelfstandigen die vervroegd stoppen en die een volle loopbaan hebben.

    Concrete projecten zullen ontwikkeld worden om gezinnen met kinderen die het écht moeilijk hebben te ondersteunen. De maatregelen om families te helpen die hun alimentatiegeld niet krijgen, zullen verbeterd en uitgebreid worden. Zo zullen vrouwen en kinderen minder kwetsbaar zijn bij echtscheidingen. De regering zal hierover spoedig een overleg organiseren met het Parlement.

    Voor het eerst sedert lang blijven in 2002 de uitgaven in de ziekteverzekering netjes binnen de budgettaire krijtlijnen. De maatregelen die de voorbije jaren werden getroffen, beginnen hun effect te hebben. Dat laat toe om volgend jaar een budget van 15,32 miljard euro of 618,8 miljard frank te reserveren. Dat houdt enkele nieuwe besparingen in, onder meer een nieuwe classificatie van geneesmiddelen. Dat houdt vooral een verruiming in van de terugbetaling in moderne medische technieken zoals kijkoperaties om maar een voorbeeld te nemen. We verbreden de mogelijkheden om rolstoelen te gebruiken en vereenvoudigen de procedures om ze te verwerven. We verbeteren de terugbetaling van ziektekosten bij zwaar zieke kinderen. We leggen geld opzij voor de herwaardering van de huisartsen en de invoering van de patiëntenrechten. En we kunnen voldoende investeren in de ouderenzorg. Geen regering heeft ooit zoveel voor de zieken gedaan als dit kabinet.

    Economisch nemen we een aantal nieuwe maatregelen om mensen meer aan het werk te krijgen. Zo worden de persoonlijke bijdragen op de minimumlonen verlaagd. Dat bestrijdt de werkloosheidsval omdat deze mensen wanneer ze aan de slag gaan nu netto meer zullen verdienen. Zoals de tuinbouw wordt de horeca geconfronteerd met moeilijke voorzienbare activiteitspieken. De minister van Tewerkstelling zal voor het einde van het jaar een wetsontwerp indienen, dat een betere integratie van de gelegenheidsarbeid mogelijk maakt, onder meer door lagere bijdragen. Voor wetenschappelijke onderzoekers komt er een verlaging van de bedrijfsvoorheffing. Tenslotte zullen de succesvolle maatregelen tegen uitsluiting op de arbeidsmarkt worden uitgebouwd.

    Ook onze overheidsbedrijven worden verder versterkt. De voorbije jaren kregen ze alle een nieuw management. Ze krijgen nu ook een sterke financiële onderbouw. Het pensioenfonds van Belgacom krijgt een aanzienlijk deel van de meerwaarde uit de verkoop van de Nederlandse gsm-operator BEN. De kapitaalsbasis van De Post wordt sterk verbreed. En bij de NMBS nemen we geleidelijk de schuld over, op basis van een volwaardig en toekomstgericht businessplan voor de onderneming en naarmate onze eigen schuld zelf onder 100 % zakt. De spoorwegen krijgen trouwens extra geld voor investeringen. Al deze maatregelen hebben één doel voor ogen: de dienstverlening verbeteren en onze overheidsbedrijven versterken op de geliberaliseerde Europese markt.

    Van deze begroting maakten we ook gebruik om onze lokale besturen meer zuurstof te geven. De netbeheerder Elia zal alle gemeenten een vergoeding betalen voor het gebruik van het territorium. Die vergoeding zal in overleg met de gewesten worden vastgesteld. We zijn ook volop bezig politiezone per politiezone te onderzoeken wat de resterende operationele en financiële problemen zijn van de politiehervorming. In de begroting werd daartoe ook een provisie aangelegd. Maar ik herhaal wat we al enkele malen hebben gezegd: we gaan betalen wat nodig is en legitiem, we gaan niet bijbetalen voor zij die in het verleden zelf onvoldoende inspanningen hebben geleverd. Naast de voorbereiding van fiscale stimuli voor de achtergebleven wijken van de grote steden en de voorziene daling van de administratieve kosten zullen we de gemeenten door de aanpassing van de voorheffing ook kunnen voorstellen sneller over hun inkomsten te beschikken. De burger van zijn kant zal daarbij het voordeel hebben later minder te moeten bijbetalen. Hoe dan ook zal geen enkele gemeente met al die maatregelen nog het federaal niveau kunnen inroepen om de eigen belastingen te verhogen

    Wij investeerden de voorbije jaren veel in politie en justitie. De eerste successen in de strijd tegen drugshandel, mensenhandel, car- en home-jacking zijn een feit. Maar we moeten keihard doorwerken. Flexibel zijn in onze hoofden en in onze methodes. Want criminaliteit verandert razendsnel. Er komt een actieplan voor meer landelijke gebieden. Want we willen vermijden dat de successen in de steden de criminelen doen uitwijken naar kleinere gemeenten. In de gerechtsgebouwen komt er een heuse werklastmeting. En we ruimen eindelijk de veelkoppige draak op van de dertien informaticastructuren binnen Justitie.

    De regering blijft zich ook volgend jaar resoluut engageren in de internationale gemeenschap. We richten een Kyoto-fonds op om tegemoet te komen aan de verplichtingen van het Klimaatverdrag. Dat fonds moet onder meer helpen bij de aankoop van emissierechten en het opzetten van een beleid van rationeel energieverbruik. Dat is de enige economisch verantwoorde manier om het broeikaseffect te bestrijden. De Belgische ontwikkelingshulp zal in 2003 verder stijgen, met 9 procent. Als we dit groeipad consequent aanhouden, - en we gaan dat trouwens wettelijk verankeren - bereiken we de 0,7 % van het bbp in 2010. En ik wil hier ook ons buitenlands beleid en de inzet van de minister van Buitenlandse Zaken vermelden. Geen inspanning wordt onverlet gelaten om een einde te helpen maken aan de meest verschrikkelijke oorlog van onze tijd, in Centraal-Afrika. En stilaan met succes.

    Mijnheer de voorzitter, collega's

    Dit is het laatste politiek jaar van deze legislatuur. Nooit hebben er zoveel regeringsontwerpen en -voorstellen klaar gelegen voor bespreking in het parlement. Ik vraag het parlement zo snel als mogelijk het wetsontwerp op de verkeersveiligheid goed te keuren. Maar ook de tweede pensioenpijler. Het consumentenkrediet. De uitstap uit kernenergie. De hervorming van de adoptie. De nieuwe wapenwet. De anti-discriminatiewet. De hervorming van de vennootschapsbelasting. De Kruispuntbank voor ondernemingen en het ondernemingsloket. De milieutaksen en de ecoboni. De verzekering tegen natuurrampen. De drugwet. De correctie aan de genocidewet. De openstelling van het huwelijk voor homo's en lesbiennes. De vermogensaangifte van politici. De bijzondere opsporingsmethoden die thans in de Senaat aanhangig zijn, samen met de veiligheid bij voetbalwedstrijden en vele andere ontwerpen inzake justitie. En dan heb ik het nog niet gehad over het ratificeren van de vele verdragen of over het nieuw ontwerp tot vereenvoudiging van de banenplannen.

    De lijst is onvolledig. Want er zijn nog belangrijke ontwerpen op komst. Het sociaal statuut van de kunstenaar, de onthaalmoeders, de medewerkende echtgenote van zelfstandigen, de responsabilisering van de artsen, de medische aansprakelijkheid, het kenniscentrum in de gezondheidszorgen, de administratieve afhandeling van verkeersinbreuken .

    Ik verwacht eveneens vanuit de meerderheid spoedig een initiatief inzake de wet op de wapenleveringen.

    Er is in ieder geval nog veel werk op de plank. Speculeren over vervroegde verkiezingen heeft dus geen zin. Er resten nog 23 parlementaire werkweken. Als de stemmachine ons een beetje wil helpen. We zullen moeten doorwerken, want we kunnen de verkiezingen ook niet uitstellen. Kamer en Senaat kunnen in de schijnwerper staan als wetgever. De oppositie krijgt hier een tribune voor haar alternatieven. Tenzij ze, zoals sommige advocaten, zou kiezen voor louter procedureslagen.

    Deze regering heeft in drie jaar tijd aandacht besteed aan veel mensen. Ik wil maar enkele voorbeelden geven. Vier jaar geleden hadden veel mensen nog een pensioen dat lager lag dan het leefloon. Dat is veranderd. Vier jaar geleden hadden we nooit de Congolezen van Goma kunnen helpen op het ogenblik dat hun huizen en scholen en hospitalen overspoeld werden door lava. Er was geen geld, geen instantie die zich daarmee bezighield. Dat is veranderd. Vier jaar geleden stond er geen rem op oplopende facturen van patiënten. Ook dat verandert.

    Ook al zijn de tijden iets moeilijker, het gaat beter met België. Wij moeten hard blijven werken. We moeten blijven hervormen. Elke werknemer die vandaag zijn job verliest, blijft er één teveel. Elke misdadiger die ongestraft weggeraakt, blijft er één teveel. Elke zelfmoord van een jongere, elk kind gedood in het verkeer of elke slecht verzorgde zieke blijft onaanvaardbaar.

    Problemen zullen er altijd zijn. Problemen mogen ons echter niet verlammen. Problemen zijn uitdagingen.

    We behoren tot de tien procent geprivilegieerden op deze wereld. Wij hebben het goed. Wij hebben alle kansen. Het is niet omdat er af en toe een onheilstijding op ons afkomt dat we in paniek moeten slaan. En het is niet omdat politici vaak misprezen worden, dat politici moeten afhaken. Het is dwaas te investeren in pessimisme.

    Laten we investeren in positief denken, in voluntarisme. En in het geloof dat ieder van ons iets kan doen aan een beter België.

  82. Creation & Destruction - 2 Sides of the Same C by magic+weaver · · Score: 1

    After reading through the article (and accompanying articles as well) I am truely torn in the middle on this issue. On one hand we would be able to save countless number of lives, relieve economic burden on goverments for disaster relief funds, increase potential agricultural yield and more importantly possibly help slow/stop the onset of global warming.

    On the other hand without the destructive forces of nature the balance of the globe's delicate echo system would be effected. Without floods, fertile top soil would not be replinished by decomposing matter from rivers, streams and oceans. Without bush fires (naturaly occuring ones) flora and fauna which are normally controlled by nature's on destructive processes would run rampant and out of control. The list goes on.

    Being a man of science I am truely torn with these issues, on one hand we would be able to improve overall quality of life globally and possibly use such methods to terraform less hospitable lands (and even planets) with such controlls, but on the other we would be going the natural order which have their reasons for occuring known to us or not. Even with strict legislations by world goverments and UN what is to stop politcians from lobbying to have small amendments made to such legislations? Even a mighty oak tree can be fell by a tiny termite, all it needs is time.

  83. Playing GOD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why not? If we have the ability to play GOD, then do it. We need to stop pretending that there is something out there that will protect us if we believe in it. All the nay Sayers are just protecting their belief structure.
    Controlling the weather will give us more crops, better crops and therefore more food.
    Think about it. Bring rain to the desert, then no more starvation.
    Only problem is that we live in a world where most have some sort of a GOD that dictates the way we see what is trying to be done.
    Same goes for Stem Cell research and disease prevention.
    Science is what will make us better. God will only make us cling to a sad and violent past. Some day in the future, I hope that the wool get ripped form all of our eyes and we can then see on clearly to a real existence...

  84. I believe ... by mtec · · Score: 2

    Simon Bar-Sinister already did it. Underdog kicked his ass and destroyed the Weathermachine. Appears to me that a few people are due a leeetle visit from you-know-who (and he just took his pill).

    --
    Cake or Death? Cake Please!
  85. IN SOVIET RUSSIA... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The weather changes you!

  86. IN SUPPORT OF OLD KIKE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    De Federale Beleidsverklaring

    Brussel, 8 oktober 2002

    Mijnheer de voorzitter
    Waarde Collega's

    België is vandaag het vierde welvarendste land ter wereld. Ik zeg dat niet. Het zijn de Verenigde Naties die dat zeggen, laatst in augustus. Noorwegen is het meest welvarende land van allemaal. Canada is het tweede, Zweden het derde. En als vierde volgt België.

    Ik zeg dit meteen, als tegengif voor de waan van elke dag. Het is niet omdat de aandelenbeurs in het eigen drijfzand wegzinkt, dat de economie verdrinkt. Het is niet omdat een ramkraak slaagt, dat heel het politie- en justitie-apparaat faalt. En het is niet omdat sommigen vanuit hun oude communautaire loopgraven elkaar blijven jennen, dat het land op springen staat.

    Ik zeg niet dat de tijden gemakkelijk zijn. Ik zal ook nooit zeggen dat het in ons land niet beter kan, dat er niets moet veranderen. In een wereld die verandert is stilstaan achteruitgaan. In de Wetstraat gold te lang een ander princiep. Dat er niets moest veranderen, wanneer het goed ging. En dat er niets kon veranderen, wanneer het slecht ging.

    Ik gun ieder zijn persoonlijk recht op verzuring. Maar ik gun de verzuurden België niet.

    Paarsgroen heeft met die houding gebroken. Wij hervormen omdat de wereld razendsnel evolueert. Wij pakken de problemen aan. Vernieuwen vinden wij vanzelfsprekend. Niets doen en kniezen is achterhaald.

    Ik moet een fabel uit de wereld helpen, een hardnekkige fabel. Er is vele malen beweerd dat dit kabinet surft op de golven van de hoogconjunctuur. Cijfers bewijzen dat dit onjuist is. De vorige legislatuur groeide de Belgische economie met bijna 10 %. In deze legislatuur zal het, door de terugval na 11 september, 8 % zijn. Het is dus niet waar dat wij meer hebben kunnen doen, omdat er meer geld was. We hebben gewoon méér gedaan.

    Wij hebben België vooral fitter gemaakt. In de jaren negentig lag de Belgische groei stelselmatig achter op die van onze noorderburen. De voorbije jaren is die identiek. In de jaren negentig hadden wij van de hoogste begrotingstekorten in Europa. Vandaag zijn wij temidden van onze buurlanden Duitsland, Frankrijk en Nederland het enige land zonder begrotingsdeficit. In de jaren negentig spendeerde de overheid gemiddeld 52 % van het nationaal inkomen. Vandaag is dat 48,3 %. De werkloosheid in ons land ligt vandaag, ook na de recente stijging, nog altijd een kwart lager dan in 1998, een stuk onder het Europees gemiddelde.

    Nogmaals, ik zeg niet dat er geen problemen zijn. De internationale economische situatie is uitermate broos. De trage groei van 2001 zet zich ook dit jaar door. We beleven de sterkste conjunctuurvertraging sedert een decennium. De vooruitzichten voor 2003 zijn moeilijk te voorspellen. Conjunctuuranalisten publiceren voor ons land groeicijfers tussen 1,8 en 2,8 %, maar passen die voortdurend aan. Economen strijden om de vraag of het grootste risico vandaag deflatie of inflatie is.

    De economische onzekerheid wordt gevoed door de internationale situatie. De Verenigde Staten wensen desnoods met geweld een einde te maken aan het arsenaal van chemische, biologische en mogelijk ook nucleaire wapens van Saddam Hoessein. Het perspectief op een oorlog verlamt het internationaal economisch herstel.

    Ik wil er geen twijfel over laten bestaan: Saddam Hoessein is een gewetenloos dictator. Op 17 maart 1988 dropten Iraakse vliegtuigen bommen met cyaankali op Halabja in Noord-Irak. Vijfduizend mensen stierven alleen al op die dag. Saddam Hoessein beschikt zeker over chemische en biologische wapens. En hij heeft ballistische raketten om die buiten de grenzen van Irak te sturen. Saddam Hoessein heeft lak aan internationale rechtsregels. In de 23 jaar overviel hij twee van zijn buurlanden. Ruim een miljoen mensen betaalden zijn ambitie met hun leven.

    De Verenigde Staten dreigen met een militaire interventie. De angst na de aanslagen van 11 september drijft hen. Het vertrouwen in hun leger na de campagne in Afghanistan is groot.

    Wij Europeanen geloven niet in puur militaire oplossingen. Wij verkiezen de diplomatieke middelen en de toepassing van de internationale rechtsregels. Wij willen dat de internationale gemeenschap eerst alle vreedzame middelen uitput. Daarom moeten de wapeninspecteurs van de Verenigde Naties onvoorwaardelijk en onbelemmerd hun werk kunnen doen. Ook die weg kan eindigen in militaire inzet. Maar laten we alles doen om dat te vermijden. En we kunnen dat vermijden als Europa met één stem spreekt.

    Snel duidelijkheid verschaffen is in ieder geval essentieel. Een strikt tijdskader voor de VN-inspecteurs en voor hun rapportering is noodzakelijk. Of daar nu een nieuwe VN- resolutie voor nodig is of niet, is van ondergeschikt belang. Wat deze crisis nodig heeft is dat ze snel achter de rug is. Overigens zal pas dan de verlammende onzekerheid in de internationale economie verdwijnen.

    Mijnheer de voorzitter, collega's

    Politiek is kiezen, vooral in moeilijke tijden. Wij, als regering, hebben met deze begroting die keuzes gemaakt. We hadden er ons eigenlijk gemakkelijk kunnen van af maken door gewoon een aantal maatregelen en hervormingen terug te schroeven, zoals vele andere landen dat hebben gedaan. Of we hadden er ons vlug door kunnen slaan door net genoeg maatregelen te treffen om het evenwicht op de begroting te bereiken, zonder nieuwe impulsen, zonder nieuwe initiatieven.

    Wij kiezen voor een andere aanpak. Wij kiezen voor een begroting in evenwicht die èn de beloofde hervormingen handhaaft, maar ook een nieuwe reeks impulsen verschaft die noodzakelijk zijn op sociaal en economisch vlak.

    Bij het bepalen van de uitgangspunten van de begroting zijn we voorzichtig gebleven. Zonder in paniek te geraken. Zonder te vervallen in overdreven pessimisme. Wij kiezen voor een groeiprognose van 2,1 %. Dat is een half procent onder de voorspellingen van de Nationale Bank en het Planbureau. Wij nemen dus, net zoals vorig jaar, een veiligheidsmarge. En voor diegenen die roepen dat we niet voorzichtig genoeg zijn: dat is zelfs een tiende procent beneden de voorspelling van het Internationaal Muntfonds. Het kan, net zoals vorig jaar, te weinig zijn. Dan zullen we, net zoals vorig jaar, tijdig bijsturen. Maar we mogen ons nu niet laten verlammen door angst. Want dan verlammen we onze economie.

    Evenmin hebben we gebruik gemaakt van de versoepeling van de begrotingsnormen aangereikt door de Europese Commissie. We mikken opnieuw op een evenwicht. Voor het vierde opeenvolgende jaar krijgen pasgeboren kinderen in België geen nieuwe schulden mee. In 1990 was dat nog 1500 euro per kind. Einde 2003 zullen we voor het eerst met zijn allen meer verdienen dan het bedrag van de totale overheidsschuld. Voor het eerst in twintig jaar.

    We kiezen dus, anders dan onze buurlanden, niet voor nieuwe tekorten. Integendeel, we leggen volgend jaar opnieuw 625 miljoen euro opzij voor het Zilverfonds.

    De begroting in evenwicht verhindert niet dat we alle geplande hervormingen trouw uitvoeren. Zo handhaven we integraal de belastingverlaging. De economische motor sputtert dan wel, maar hij is niet stilgevallen. Er bestaat met andere woorden geen beter moment om de inkomens van de bevolking te ondersteunen.

    Trouwens, alle belastingbetalers zullen er op vooruit gaan, zeker de kleinste. Vanaf januari gaan de mensen dat iedere maand merken. De crisisbelasting verdwijnt volledig. De helft van het inkomen wordt de maximumgrens voor de fiscus. Mensen met lage lonen krijgen een toeslag via een belastingkrediet. Alleenstaande ouders krijgen meer door de verhoogde aftrek voor kinderen. Mensen met een lager of modaal inkomen zullen hun loon met tientallen euro's per maand zien stijgen. En de eerste stap in het wegwerken van de fiscale discriminatie tussen gehuwden en samenwonenden wordt gezet. Belastingen verlagen en deze meer rechtvaardig maken, is ook een vorm van sociaal beleid.

    Wij gaan ook door met het hervormen van de vennootschapsbelasting. Vanaf 1 januari is ons tarief niet langer het hoogste van Europa. En de KMO's krijgen extra-zuurstof voor hun nieuwe investeringen. Volgende lente gaan we die hervorming uitdragen. Naar investeerders, in Singapore, Hong Kong, New York, Londen of Frankfurt. België moet opnieuw ruimte creëren om te ondernemen.

    Beide belastinghervormingen laten ook toe een overdreven stijging van de loonkosten te vermijden. Onze bedrijven dreigen anders te verhuizen. Buitenlandse bedrijven dreigen anders weg te blijven. Dat is niet het antwoord op de grotere jobzekerheid die de mensen ons vragen. Anderzijds zou ik liefst een wettelijk ingrijpen in de loonvorming vermijden. Daarom roep ik de sociale partners, de sectoren en de bedrijven op zelf hun verantwoordelijkheid op te nemen.

    Dit is ook het moment voor werkgevers en werknemers om te kiezen voor durf en creativiteit inzake de organisatie van de arbeid bijvoorbeeld, de kwaliteit van het werk, het uitbouwen van pensioenfondsen of werknemersparticipatie. Sociale partners kunnen ook kansen creëren, en zo bijdragen tot een beter België.

    Op 1 januari verlossen we de ondernemingen van veel paperasserij. Vijftig formulieren, elk verspreid op één miljoen exemplaren, worden volgend jaar overbodig. Dankzij de vereenvoudigde elektronische aangiften voor de sociale zekerheid. Massa's dubbelwerk en overbodige briefwisseling, en een pak langdurige administratieve procedures zullen verdwijnen met de Kruispuntbank voor ondernemingen en het uniek ondernemingsnummer. En tegen 1 januari 2004 gaan we het aantal banenplannen drastisch reduceren om de doeltreffendheid ervan te verhogen. Het werk aan het voedselagentschap en aan Copernicus wordt onverminderd verdergezet.

    We voeren dus onverkort uit wat we beloofd hebben.

    Tegen de verwachtingen in zijn we met deze nieuwe begroting nog een stuk verder gegaan. Initieel planden we 1 miljard euro besparingen. We hebben echter meer gedaan. We hebben 1,5 miljard euro bespaard. We hebben ruimte vrijgemaakt voor nieuwe impulsen, nieuwe initiatieven. We hebben bewust gekozen voor maatregelen die we sociaal, economisch en ecologisch absoluut de moeite vonden. En anders dan in het verleden hebben we de heikele dossiers niet doorgeschoven tot na de verkiezingen. Dit is een begroting die keuzes voor de toekomst maakt. Een begroting die een visie belichaamt.

    Dat vertaalt zich in tal van nieuwe initiatieven op sociaal, op economisch vlak, in de overheidsbedrijven en de wetenschappelijke instellingen en met betrekking tot onze gemeenten.

    Sociaal willen we de meest kwetsbare mensen beter helpen. Het stelsel van de kinderbijslagen voor ernstig zieke en zwaar gehandicapte kinderen wordt verbeterd. Vrouwelijke zelfstandigen zullen kunnen genieten van een verdubbeling van de zwangerschapsvergoeding. De pensioenen van voor 1995 worden welvaartsvast. De minimumpensioenen voor loontrekkenden en voor zelfstandigen worden voor de tweede maal verhoogd, wat hun totale stijging sinds het begin van deze legislatuur op 10 procent brengt. En vanaf nu zullen ook mensen met een gemengde loopbaan op dat minimum recht hebben. Verder zetten we een eerste stap in het afbouwen van de penalisatie van zelfstandigen die vervroegd stoppen en die een volle loopbaan hebben.

    Concrete projecten zullen ontwikkeld worden om gezinnen met kinderen die het écht moeilijk hebben te ondersteunen. De maatregelen om families te helpen die hun alimentatiegeld niet krijgen, zullen verbeterd en uitgebreid worden. Zo zullen vrouwen en kinderen minder kwetsbaar zijn bij echtscheidingen. De regering zal hierover spoedig een overleg organiseren met het Parlement.

    Voor het eerst sedert lang blijven in 2002 de uitgaven in de ziekteverzekering netjes binnen de budgettaire krijtlijnen. De maatregelen die de voorbije jaren werden getroffen, beginnen hun effect te hebben. Dat laat toe om volgend jaar een budget van 15,32 miljard euro of 618,8 miljard frank te reserveren. Dat houdt enkele nieuwe besparingen in, onder meer een nieuwe classificatie van geneesmiddelen. Dat houdt vooral een verruiming in van de terugbetaling in moderne medische technieken zoals kijkoperaties om maar een voorbeeld te nemen. We verbreden de mogelijkheden om rolstoelen te gebruiken en vereenvoudigen de procedures om ze te verwerven. We verbeteren de terugbetaling van ziektekosten bij zwaar zieke kinderen. We leggen geld opzij voor de herwaardering van de huisartsen en de invoering van de patiëntenrechten. En we kunnen voldoende investeren in de ouderenzorg. Geen regering heeft ooit zoveel voor de zieken gedaan als dit kabinet.

    Economisch nemen we een aantal nieuwe maatregelen om mensen meer aan het werk te krijgen. Zo worden de persoonlijke bijdragen op de minimumlonen verlaagd. Dat bestrijdt de werkloosheidsval omdat deze mensen wanneer ze aan de slag gaan nu netto meer zullen verdienen. Zoals de tuinbouw wordt de horeca geconfronteerd met moeilijke voorzienbare activiteitspieken. De minister van Tewerkstelling zal voor het einde van het jaar een wetsontwerp indienen, dat een betere integratie van de gelegenheidsarbeid mogelijk maakt, onder meer door lagere bijdragen. Voor wetenschappelijke onderzoekers komt er een verlaging van de bedrijfsvoorheffing. Tenslotte zullen de succesvolle maatregelen tegen uitsluiting op de arbeidsmarkt worden uitgebouwd.

    Ook onze overheidsbedrijven worden verder versterkt. De voorbije jaren kregen ze alle een nieuw management. Ze krijgen nu ook een sterke financiële onderbouw. Het pensioenfonds van Belgacom krijgt een aanzienlijk deel van de meerwaarde uit de verkoop van de Nederlandse gsm-operator BEN. De kapitaalsbasis van De Post wordt sterk verbreed. En bij de NMBS nemen we geleidelijk de schuld over, op basis van een volwaardig en toekomstgericht businessplan voor de onderneming en naarmate onze eigen schuld zelf onder 100 % zakt. De spoorwegen krijgen trouwens extra geld voor investeringen. Al deze maatregelen hebben één doel voor ogen: de dienstverlening verbeteren en onze overheidsbedrijven versterken op de geliberaliseerde Europese markt.

    Van deze begroting maakten we ook gebruik om onze lokale besturen meer zuurstof te geven. De netbeheerder Elia zal alle gemeenten een vergoeding betalen voor het gebruik van het territorium. Die vergoeding zal in overleg met de gewesten worden vastgesteld. We zijn ook volop bezig politiezone per politiezone te onderzoeken wat de resterende operationele en financiële problemen zijn van de politiehervorming. In de begroting werd daartoe ook een provisie aangelegd. Maar ik herhaal wat we al enkele malen hebben gezegd: we gaan betalen wat nodig is en legitiem, we gaan niet bijbetalen voor zij die in het verleden zelf onvoldoende inspanningen hebben geleverd. Naast de voorbereiding van fiscale stimuli voor de achtergebleven wijken van de grote steden en de voorziene daling van de administratieve kosten zullen we de gemeenten door de aanpassing van de voorheffing ook kunnen voorstellen sneller over hun inkomsten te beschikken. De burger van zijn kant zal daarbij het voordeel hebben later minder te moeten bijbetalen. Hoe dan ook zal geen enkele gemeente met al die maatregelen nog het federaal niveau kunnen inroepen om de eigen belastingen te verhogen

    Wij investeerden de voorbije jaren veel in politie en justitie. De eerste successen in de strijd tegen drugshandel, mensenhandel, car- en home-jacking zijn een feit. Maar we moeten keihard doorwerken. Flexibel zijn in onze hoofden en in onze methodes. Want criminaliteit verandert razendsnel. Er komt een actieplan voor meer landelijke gebieden. Want we willen vermijden dat de successen in de steden de criminelen doen uitwijken naar kleinere gemeenten. In de gerechtsgebouwen komt er een heuse werklastmeting. En we ruimen eindelijk de veelkoppige draak op van de dertien informaticastructuren binnen Justitie.

    De regering blijft zich ook volgend jaar resoluut engageren in de internationale gemeenschap. We richten een Kyoto-fonds op om tegemoet te komen aan de verplichtingen van het Klimaatverdrag. Dat fonds moet onder meer helpen bij de aankoop van emissierechten en het opzetten van een beleid van rationeel energieverbruik. Dat is de enige economisch verantwoorde manier om het broeikaseffect te bestrijden. De Belgische ontwikkelingshulp zal in 2003 verder stijgen, met 9 procent. Als we dit groeipad consequent aanhouden, - en we gaan dat trouwens wettelijk verankeren - bereiken we de 0,7 % van het bbp in 2010. En ik wil hier ook ons buitenlands beleid en de inzet van de minister van Buitenlandse Zaken vermelden. Geen inspanning wordt onverlet gelaten om een einde te helpen maken aan de meest verschrikkelijke oorlog van onze tijd, in Centraal-Afrika. En stilaan met succes.

    Mijnheer de voorzitter, collega's

    Dit is het laatste politiek jaar van deze legislatuur. Nooit hebben er zoveel regeringsontwerpen en -voorstellen klaar gelegen voor bespreking in het parlement. Ik vraag het parlement zo snel als mogelijk het wetsontwerp op de verkeersveiligheid goed te keuren. Maar ook de tweede pensioenpijler. Het consumentenkrediet. De uitstap uit kernenergie. De hervorming van de adoptie. De nieuwe wapenwet. De anti-discriminatiewet. De hervorming van de vennootschapsbelasting. De Kruispuntbank voor ondernemingen en het ondernemingsloket. De milieutaksen en de ecoboni. De verzekering tegen natuurrampen. De drugwet. De correctie aan de genocidewet. De openstelling van het huwelijk voor homo's en lesbiennes. De vermogensaangifte van politici. De bijzondere opsporingsmethoden die thans in de Senaat aanhangig zijn, samen met de veiligheid bij voetbalwedstrijden en vele andere ontwerpen inzake justitie. En dan heb ik het nog niet gehad over het ratificeren van de vele verdragen of over het nieuw ontwerp tot vereenvoudiging van de banenplannen.

    De lijst is onvolledig. Want er zijn nog belangrijke ontwerpen op komst. Het sociaal statuut van de kunstenaar, de onthaalmoeders, de medewerkende echtgenote van zelfstandigen, de responsabilisering van de artsen, de medische aansprakelijkheid, het kenniscentrum in de gezondheidszorgen, de administratieve afhandeling van verkeersinbreuken .

    Ik verwacht eveneens vanuit de meerderheid spoedig een initiatief inzake de wet op de wapenleveringen.

    Er is in ieder geval nog veel werk op de plank. Speculeren over vervroegde verkiezingen heeft dus geen zin. Er resten nog 23 parlementaire werkweken. Als de stemmachine ons een beetje wil helpen. We zullen moeten doorwerken, want we kunnen de verkiezingen ook niet uitstellen. Kamer en Senaat kunnen in de schijnwerper staan als wetgever. De oppositie krijgt hier een tribune voor haar alternatieven. Tenzij ze, zoals sommige advocaten, zou kiezen voor louter procedureslagen.

    Deze regering heeft in drie jaar tijd aandacht besteed aan veel mensen. Ik wil maar enkele voorbeelden geven. Vier jaar geleden hadden veel mensen nog een pensioen dat lager lag dan het leefloon. Dat is veranderd. Vier jaar geleden hadden we nooit de Congolezen van Goma kunnen helpen op het ogenblik dat hun huizen en scholen en hospitalen overspoeld werden door lava. Er was geen geld, geen instantie die zich daarmee bezighield. Dat is veranderd. Vier jaar geleden stond er geen rem op oplopende facturen van patiënten. Ook dat verandert.

    Ook al zijn de tijden iets moeilijker, het gaat beter met België. Wij moeten hard blijven werken. We moeten blijven hervormen. Elke werknemer die vandaag zijn job verliest, blijft er één teveel. Elke misdadiger die ongestraft weggeraakt, blijft er één teveel. Elke zelfmoord van een jongere, elk kind gedood in het verkeer of elke slecht verzorgde zieke blijft onaanvaardbaar.

    Problemen zullen er altijd zijn. Problemen mogen ons echter niet verlammen. Problemen zijn uitdagingen.

    We behoren tot de tien procent geprivilegieerden op deze wereld. Wij hebben het goed. Wij hebben alle kansen. Het is niet omdat er af en toe een onheilstijding op ons afkomt dat we in paniek moeten slaan. En het is niet omdat politici vaak misprezen worden, dat politici moeten afhaken. Het is dwaas te investeren in pessimisme.

    Laten we investeren in positief denken, in voluntarisme. En in het geloof dat ieder van ons iets kan doen aan een beter België.

  87. BELGIUM SUPPORTS OLD KIKE! GO KIKE! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    De Federale Beleidsverklaring

    Brussel, 8 oktober 2002

    Mijnheer de voorzitter
    Waarde Collega's

    België is vandaag het vierde welvarendste land ter wereld. Ik zeg dat niet. Het zijn de Verenigde Naties die dat zeggen, laatst in augustus. Noorwegen is het meest welvarende land van allemaal. Canada is het tweede, Zweden het derde. En als vierde volgt België.

    Ik zeg dit meteen, als tegengif voor de waan van elke dag. Het is niet omdat de aandelenbeurs in het eigen drijfzand wegzinkt, dat de economie verdrinkt. Het is niet omdat een ramkraak slaagt, dat heel het politie- en justitie-apparaat faalt. En het is niet omdat sommigen vanuit hun oude communautaire loopgraven elkaar blijven jennen, dat het land op springen staat.

    Ik gun ieder zijn persoonlijk recht op verzuring. Maar ik gun de verzuurden België niet.

    Ik zeg niet dat de tijden gemakkelijk zijn. Ik zal ook nooit zeggen dat het in ons land niet beter kan, dat er niets moet veranderen. In een wereld die verandert is stilstaan achteruitgaan. In de Wetstraat gold te lang een ander princiep. Dat er niets moest veranderen, wanneer het goed ging. En dat er niets kon veranderen, wanneer het slecht ging.

    Paarsgroen heeft met die houding gebroken. Wij hervormen omdat de wereld razendsnel evolueert. Wij pakken de problemen aan. Vernieuwen vinden wij vanzelfsprekend. Niets doen en kniezen is achterhaald.

    Ik moet een fabel uit de wereld helpen, een hardnekkige fabel. Er is vele malen beweerd dat dit kabinet surft op de golven van de hoogconjunctuur. Cijfers bewijzen dat dit onjuist is. De vorige legislatuur groeide de Belgische economie met bijna 10 %. In deze legislatuur zal het, door de terugval na 11 september, 8 % zijn. Het is dus niet waar dat wij meer hebben kunnen doen, omdat er meer geld was. We hebben gewoon méér gedaan.

    Wij hebben België vooral fitter gemaakt. In de jaren negentig lag de Belgische groei stelselmatig achter op die van onze noorderburen. De voorbije jaren is die identiek. In de jaren negentig hadden wij van de hoogste begrotingstekorten in Europa. Vandaag zijn wij temidden van onze buurlanden Duitsland, Frankrijk en Nederland het enige land zonder begrotingsdeficit. In de jaren negentig spendeerde de overheid gemiddeld 52 % van het nationaal inkomen. Vandaag is dat 48,3 %. De werkloosheid in ons land ligt vandaag, ook na de recente stijging, nog altijd een kwart lager dan in 1998, een stuk onder het Europees gemiddelde.

    Nogmaals, ik zeg niet dat er geen problemen zijn. De internationale economische situatie is uitermate broos. De trage groei van 2001 zet zich ook dit jaar door. We beleven de sterkste conjunctuurvertraging sedert een decennium. De vooruitzichten voor 2003 zijn moeilijk te voorspellen. Conjunctuuranalisten publiceren voor ons land groeicijfers tussen 1,8 en 2,8 %, maar passen die voortdurend aan. Economen strijden om de vraag of het grootste risico vandaag deflatie of inflatie is.

    De economische onzekerheid wordt gevoed door de internationale situatie. De Verenigde Staten wensen desnoods met geweld een einde te maken aan het arsenaal van chemische, biologische en mogelijk ook nucleaire wapens van Saddam Hoessein. Het perspectief op een oorlog verlamt het internationaal economisch herstel.

    Ik wil er geen twijfel over laten bestaan: Saddam Hoessein is een gewetenloos dictator. Op 17 maart 1988 dropten Iraakse vliegtuigen bommen met cyaankali op Halabja in Noord-Irak. Vijfduizend mensen stierven alleen al op die dag. Saddam Hoessein beschikt zeker over chemische en biologische wapens. En hij heeft ballistische raketten om die buiten de grenzen van Irak te sturen. Saddam Hoessein heeft lak aan internationale rechtsregels. In de 23 jaar overviel hij twee van zijn buurlanden. Ruim een miljoen mensen betaalden zijn ambitie met hun leven.

    De Verenigde Staten dreigen met een militaire interventie. De angst na de aanslagen van 11 september drijft hen. Het vertrouwen in hun leger na de campagne in Afghanistan is groot.

    Wij Europeanen geloven niet in puur militaire oplossingen. Wij verkiezen de diplomatieke middelen en de toepassing van de internationale rechtsregels. Wij willen dat de internationale gemeenschap eerst alle vreedzame middelen uitput. Daarom moeten de wapeninspecteurs van de Verenigde Naties onvoorwaardelijk en onbelemmerd hun werk kunnen doen. Ook die weg kan eindigen in militaire inzet. Maar laten we alles doen om dat te vermijden. En we kunnen dat vermijden als Europa met één stem spreekt.

    Snel duidelijkheid verschaffen is in ieder geval essentieel. Een strikt tijdskader voor de VN-inspecteurs en voor hun rapportering is noodzakelijk. Of daar nu een nieuwe VN- resolutie voor nodig is of niet, is van ondergeschikt belang. Wat deze crisis nodig heeft is dat ze snel achter de rug is. Overigens zal pas dan de verlammende onzekerheid in de internationale economie verdwijnen.

    Mijnheer de voorzitter, collega's

    Politiek is kiezen, vooral in moeilijke tijden. Wij, als regering, hebben met deze begroting die keuzes gemaakt. We hadden er ons eigenlijk gemakkelijk kunnen van af maken door gewoon een aantal maatregelen en hervormingen terug te schroeven, zoals vele andere landen dat hebben gedaan. Of we hadden er ons vlug door kunnen slaan door net genoeg maatregelen te treffen om het evenwicht op de begroting te bereiken, zonder nieuwe impulsen, zonder nieuwe initiatieven.

    Wij kiezen voor een andere aanpak. Wij kiezen voor een begroting in evenwicht die èn de beloofde hervormingen handhaaft, maar ook een nieuwe reeks impulsen verschaft die noodzakelijk zijn op sociaal en economisch vlak.

    Bij het bepalen van de uitgangspunten van de begroting zijn we voorzichtig gebleven. Zonder in paniek te geraken. Zonder te vervallen in overdreven pessimisme. Wij kiezen voor een groeiprognose van 2,1 %. Dat is een half procent onder de voorspellingen van de Nationale Bank en het Planbureau. Wij nemen dus, net zoals vorig jaar, een veiligheidsmarge. En voor diegenen die roepen dat we niet voorzichtig genoeg zijn: dat is zelfs een tiende procent beneden de voorspelling van het Internationaal Muntfonds. Het kan, net zoals vorig jaar, te weinig zijn. Dan zullen we, net zoals vorig jaar, tijdig bijsturen. Maar we mogen ons nu niet laten verlammen door angst. Want dan verlammen we onze economie.

    Evenmin hebben we gebruik gemaakt van de versoepeling van de begrotingsnormen aangereikt door de Europese Commissie. We mikken opnieuw op een evenwicht. Voor het vierde opeenvolgende jaar krijgen pasgeboren kinderen in België geen nieuwe schulden mee. In 1990 was dat nog 1500 euro per kind. Einde 2003 zullen we voor het eerst met zijn allen meer verdienen dan het bedrag van de totale overheidsschuld. Voor het eerst in twintig jaar.

    We kiezen dus, anders dan onze buurlanden, niet voor nieuwe tekorten. Integendeel, we leggen volgend jaar opnieuw 625 miljoen euro opzij voor het Zilverfonds.

    De begroting in evenwicht verhindert niet dat we alle geplande hervormingen trouw uitvoeren. Zo handhaven we integraal de belastingverlaging. De economische motor sputtert dan wel, maar hij is niet stilgevallen. Er bestaat met andere woorden geen beter moment om de inkomens van de bevolking te ondersteunen.

    Trouwens, alle belastingbetalers zullen er op vooruit gaan, zeker de kleinste. Vanaf januari gaan de mensen dat iedere maand merken. De crisisbelasting verdwijnt volledig. De helft van het inkomen wordt de maximumgrens voor de fiscus. Mensen met lage lonen krijgen een toeslag via een belastingkrediet. Alleenstaande ouders krijgen meer door de verhoogde aftrek voor kinderen. Mensen met een lager of modaal inkomen zullen hun loon met tientallen euro's per maand zien stijgen. En de eerste stap in het wegwerken van de fiscale discriminatie tussen gehuwden en samenwonenden wordt gezet. Belastingen verlagen en deze meer rechtvaardig maken, is ook een vorm van sociaal beleid.

    Wij gaan ook door met het hervormen van de vennootschapsbelasting. Vanaf 1 januari is ons tarief niet langer het hoogste van Europa. En de KMO's krijgen extra-zuurstof voor hun nieuwe investeringen. Volgende lente gaan we die hervorming uitdragen. Naar investeerders, in Singapore, Hong Kong, New York, Londen of Frankfurt. België moet opnieuw ruimte creëren om te ondernemen.

    Beide belastinghervormingen laten ook toe een overdreven stijging van de loonkosten te vermijden. Onze bedrijven dreigen anders te verhuizen. Buitenlandse bedrijven dreigen anders weg te blijven. Dat is niet het antwoord op de grotere jobzekerheid die de mensen ons vragen. Anderzijds zou ik liefst een wettelijk ingrijpen in de loonvorming vermijden. Daarom roep ik de sociale partners, de sectoren en de bedrijven op zelf hun verantwoordelijkheid op te nemen.

    Dit is ook het moment voor werkgevers en werknemers om te kiezen voor durf en creativiteit inzake de organisatie van de arbeid bijvoorbeeld, de kwaliteit van het werk, het uitbouwen van pensioenfondsen of werknemersparticipatie. Sociale partners kunnen ook kansen creëren, en zo bijdragen tot een beter België.

    Op 1 januari verlossen we de ondernemingen van veel paperasserij. Vijftig formulieren, elk verspreid op één miljoen exemplaren, worden volgend jaar overbodig. Dankzij de vereenvoudigde elektronische aangiften voor de sociale zekerheid. Massa's dubbelwerk en overbodige briefwisseling, en een pak langdurige administratieve procedures zullen verdwijnen met de Kruispuntbank voor ondernemingen en het uniek ondernemingsnummer. En tegen 1 januari 2004 gaan we het aantal banenplannen drastisch reduceren om de doeltreffendheid ervan te verhogen. Het werk aan het voedselagentschap en aan Copernicus wordt onverminderd verdergezet.

    We voeren dus onverkort uit wat we beloofd hebben.

    Tegen de verwachtingen in zijn we met deze nieuwe begroting nog een stuk verder gegaan. Initieel planden we 1 miljard euro besparingen. We hebben echter meer gedaan. We hebben 1,5 miljard euro bespaard. We hebben ruimte vrijgemaakt voor nieuwe impulsen, nieuwe initiatieven. We hebben bewust gekozen voor maatregelen die we sociaal, economisch en ecologisch absoluut de moeite vonden. En anders dan in het verleden hebben we de heikele dossiers niet doorgeschoven tot na de verkiezingen. Dit is een begroting die keuzes voor de toekomst maakt. Een begroting die een visie belichaamt.

    Dat vertaalt zich in tal van nieuwe initiatieven op sociaal, op economisch vlak, in de overheidsbedrijven en de wetenschappelijke instellingen en met betrekking tot onze gemeenten.

    Sociaal willen we de meest kwetsbare mensen beter helpen. Het stelsel van de kinderbijslagen voor ernstig zieke en zwaar gehandicapte kinderen wordt verbeterd. Vrouwelijke zelfstandigen zullen kunnen genieten van een verdubbeling van de zwangerschapsvergoeding. De pensioenen van voor 1995 worden welvaartsvast. De minimumpensioenen voor loontrekkenden en voor zelfstandigen worden voor de tweede maal verhoogd, wat hun totale stijging sinds het begin van deze legislatuur op 10 procent brengt. En vanaf nu zullen ook mensen met een gemengde loopbaan op dat minimum recht hebben. Verder zetten we een eerste stap in het afbouwen van de penalisatie van zelfstandigen die vervroegd stoppen en die een volle loopbaan hebben.

    Concrete projecten zullen ontwikkeld worden om gezinnen met kinderen die het écht moeilijk hebben te ondersteunen. De maatregelen om families te helpen die hun alimentatiegeld niet krijgen, zullen verbeterd en uitgebreid worden. Zo zullen vrouwen en kinderen minder kwetsbaar zijn bij echtscheidingen. De regering zal hierover spoedig een overleg organiseren met het Parlement.

    Voor het eerst sedert lang blijven in 2002 de uitgaven in de ziekteverzekering netjes binnen de budgettaire krijtlijnen. De maatregelen die de voorbije jaren werden getroffen, beginnen hun effect te hebben. Dat laat toe om volgend jaar een budget van 15,32 miljard euro of 618,8 miljard frank te reserveren. Dat houdt enkele nieuwe besparingen in, onder meer een nieuwe classificatie van geneesmiddelen. Dat houdt vooral een verruiming in van de terugbetaling in moderne medische technieken zoals kijkoperaties om maar een voorbeeld te nemen. We verbreden de mogelijkheden om rolstoelen te gebruiken en vereenvoudigen de procedures om ze te verwerven. We verbeteren de terugbetaling van ziektekosten bij zwaar zieke kinderen. We leggen geld opzij voor de herwaardering van de huisartsen en de invoering van de patiëntenrechten. En we kunnen voldoende investeren in de ouderenzorg. Geen regering heeft ooit zoveel voor de zieken gedaan als dit kabinet.

    Economisch nemen we een aantal nieuwe maatregelen om mensen meer aan het werk te krijgen. Zo worden de persoonlijke bijdragen op de minimumlonen verlaagd. Dat bestrijdt de werkloosheidsval omdat deze mensen wanneer ze aan de slag gaan nu netto meer zullen verdienen. Zoals de tuinbouw wordt de horeca geconfronteerd met moeilijke voorzienbare activiteitspieken. De minister van Tewerkstelling zal voor het einde van het jaar een wetsontwerp indienen, dat een betere integratie van de gelegenheidsarbeid mogelijk maakt, onder meer door lagere bijdragen. Voor wetenschappelijke onderzoekers komt er een verlaging van de bedrijfsvoorheffing. Tenslotte zullen de succesvolle maatregelen tegen uitsluiting op de arbeidsmarkt worden uitgebouwd.

    Ook onze overheidsbedrijven worden verder versterkt. De voorbije jaren kregen ze alle een nieuw management. Ze krijgen nu ook een sterke financiële onderbouw. Het pensioenfonds van Belgacom krijgt een aanzienlijk deel van de meerwaarde uit de verkoop van de Nederlandse gsm-operator BEN. De kapitaalsbasis van De Post wordt sterk verbreed. En bij de NMBS nemen we geleidelijk de schuld over, op basis van een volwaardig en toekomstgericht businessplan voor de onderneming en naarmate onze eigen schuld zelf onder 100 % zakt. De spoorwegen krijgen trouwens extra geld voor investeringen. Al deze maatregelen hebben één doel voor ogen: de dienstverlening verbeteren en onze overheidsbedrijven versterken op de geliberaliseerde Europese markt.

    Van deze begroting maakten we ook gebruik om onze lokale besturen meer zuurstof te geven. De netbeheerder Elia zal alle gemeenten een vergoeding betalen voor het gebruik van het territorium. Die vergoeding zal in overleg met de gewesten worden vastgesteld. We zijn ook volop bezig politiezone per politiezone te onderzoeken wat de resterende operationele en financiële problemen zijn van de politiehervorming. In de begroting werd daartoe ook een provisie aangelegd. Maar ik herhaal wat we al enkele malen hebben gezegd: we gaan betalen wat nodig is en legitiem, we gaan niet bijbetalen voor zij die in het verleden zelf onvoldoende inspanningen hebben geleverd. Naast de voorbereiding van fiscale stimuli voor de achtergebleven wijken van de grote steden en de voorziene daling van de administratieve kosten zullen we de gemeenten door de aanpassing van de voorheffing ook kunnen voorstellen sneller over hun inkomsten te beschikken. De burger van zijn kant zal daarbij het voordeel hebben later minder te moeten bijbetalen. Hoe dan ook zal geen enkele gemeente met al die maatregelen nog het federaal niveau kunnen inroepen om de eigen belastingen te verhogen

    Wij investeerden de voorbije jaren veel in politie en justitie. De eerste successen in de strijd tegen drugshandel, mensenhandel, car- en home-jacking zijn een feit. Maar we moeten keihard doorwerken. Flexibel zijn in onze hoofden en in onze methodes. Want criminaliteit verandert razendsnel. Er komt een actieplan voor meer landelijke gebieden. Want we willen vermijden dat de successen in de steden de criminelen doen uitwijken naar kleinere gemeenten. In de gerechtsgebouwen komt er een heuse werklastmeting. En we ruimen eindelijk de veelkoppige draak op van de dertien informaticastructuren binnen Justitie.

    De regering blijft zich ook volgend jaar resoluut engageren in de internationale gemeenschap. We richten een Kyoto-fonds op om tegemoet te komen aan de verplichtingen van het Klimaatverdrag. Dat fonds moet onder meer helpen bij de aankoop van emissierechten en het opzetten van een beleid van rationeel energieverbruik. Dat is de enige economisch verantwoorde manier om het broeikaseffect te bestrijden. De Belgische ontwikkelingshulp zal in 2003 verder stijgen, met 9 procent. Als we dit groeipad consequent aanhouden, - en we gaan dat trouwens wettelijk verankeren - bereiken we de 0,7 % van het bbp in 2010. En ik wil hier ook ons buitenlands beleid en de inzet van de minister van Buitenlandse Zaken vermelden. Geen inspanning wordt onverlet gelaten om een einde te helpen maken aan de meest verschrikkelijke oorlog van onze tijd, in Centraal- Afrika. En stilaan met succes.

    Mijnheer de voorzitter, collega's

    Dit is het laatste politiek jaar van deze legislatuur. Nooit hebben er zoveel regeringsontwerpen en -voorstellen klaar gelegen voor bespreking in het parlement. Ik vraag het parlement zo snel als mogelijk het wetsontwerp op de verkeersveiligheid goed te keuren. Maar ook de tweede pensioenpijler. Het consumentenkrediet. De uitstap uit kernenergie. De hervorming van de adoptie. De nieuwe wapenwet. De anti-discriminatiewet. De hervorming van de vennootschapsbelasting. De Kruispuntbank voor ondernemingen en het ondernemingsloket. De milieutaksen en de ecoboni. De verzekering tegen natuurrampen. De drugwet. De correctie aan de genocidewet. De openstelling van het huwelijk voor homo's en lesbiennes. De vermogensaangifte van politici. De bijzondere opsporingsmethoden die thans in de Senaat aanhangig zijn, samen met de veiligheid bij voetbalwedstrijden en vele andere ontwerpen inzake justitie. En dan heb ik het nog niet gehad over het ratificeren van de vele verdragen of over het nieuw ontwerp tot vereenvoudiging van de banenplannen.

    De lijst is onvolledig. Want er zijn nog belangrijke ontwerpen op komst. Het sociaal statuut van de kunstenaar, de onthaalmoeders, de medewerkende echtgenote van zelfstandigen, de responsabilisering van de artsen, de medische aansprakelijkheid, het kenniscentrum in de gezondheidszorgen, de administratieve afhandeling van verkeersinbreuken .

    Ik verwacht eveneens vanuit de meerderheid spoedig een initiatief inzake de wet op de wapenleveringen.

    Er is in ieder geval nog veel werk op de plank. Speculeren over vervroegde verkiezingen heeft dus geen zin. Er resten nog 23 parlementaire werkweken. Als de stemmachine ons een beetje wil helpen. We zullen moeten doorwerken, want we kunnen de verkiezingen ook niet uitstellen. Kamer en Senaat kunnen in de schijnwerper staan als wetgever. De oppositie krijgt hier een tribune voor haar alternatieven. Tenzij ze, zoals sommige advocaten, zou kiezen voor louter procedureslagen.

    Deze regering heeft in drie jaar tijd aandacht besteed aan veel mensen. Ik wil maar enkele voorbeelden geven. Vier jaar geleden hadden veel mensen nog een pensioen dat lager lag dan het leefloon. Dat is veranderd. Vier jaar geleden hadden we nooit de Congolezen van Goma kunnen helpen op het ogenblik dat hun huizen en scholen en hospitalen overspoeld werden door lava. Er was geen geld, geen instantie die zich daarmee bezighield. Dat is veranderd. Vier jaar geleden stond er geen rem op oplopende facturen van patiënten. Ook dat verandert.

    Problemen zullen er altijd zijn. Problemen mogen ons echter niet verlammen. Problemen zijn uitdagingen.

    Ook al zijn de tijden iets moeilijker, het gaat beter met België. Wij moeten hard blijven werken. We moeten blijven hervormen. Elke werknemer die vandaag zijn job verliest, blijft er één teveel. Elke misdadiger die ongestraft weggeraakt, blijft er één teveel. Elke zelfmoord van een jongere, elk kind gedood in het verkeer of elke slecht verzorgde zieke blijft onaanvaardbaar.

    We behoren tot de tien procent geprivilegieerden op deze wereld. Wij hebben het goed. Wij hebben alle kansen. Het is niet omdat er af en toe een onheilstijding op ons afkomt dat we in paniek moeten slaan. En het is niet omdat politici vaak misprezen worden, dat politici moeten afhaken. Het is dwaas te investeren in pessimisme.

    Laten we investeren in positief denken, in voluntarisme. En in het geloof dat ieder van ons iets kan doen aan een beter België.

  88. What's the question? by geeknik · · Score: 0

    Seem a little to vague for me, like.. why wouldn't I want a huricane to not kill lots of people? There would have to be terrible side effects generated from the process that moves huricanes before it would even be a question no? IMHO there is no real ethical question here, if that's what this is about, this isn't like abortion or cloneing or something... People don't really find hospitals wrong or unethical (the institution of, not the bussiness practices of) except for Amish people.. and well, I think I won't be offending a lot of websurfin' Amish folks when I say the Amish are weird.

  89. Should We Change the Weather Even If We Can? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No. We should change the weather even if we can't.

  90. GO KIKE! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    De Federale Beleidsverklaring

    Brussel, 8 oktober 2002

    Mijnheer de voorzitter
    Waarde Collega's

    België is vandaag het vierde welvarendste land ter wereld. Ik zeg dat niet. Het zijn de Verenigde Naties die dat zeggen, laatst in augustus. Noorwegen is het meest welvarende land van allemaal. Canada is het tweede, Zweden het derde. En als vierde volgt België.

    Ik zeg dit meteen, als tegengif voor de waan van elke dag. Het is niet omdat de aandelenbeurs in het eigen drijfzand wegzinkt, dat de economie verdrinkt. Het is niet omdat een ramkraak slaagt, dat heel het politie- en justitie-apparaat faalt. En het is niet omdat sommigen vanuit hun oude communautaire loopgraven elkaar blijven jennen, dat het land op springen staat.

    Ik gun ieder zijn persoonlijk recht op verzuring. Maar ik gun de verzuurden België niet.

    Ik zeg niet dat de tijden gemakkelijk zijn. Ik zal ook nooit zeggen dat het in ons land niet beter kan, dat er niets moet veranderen. In een wereld die verandert is stilstaan achteruitgaan. In de Wetstraat gold te lang een ander princiep. Dat er niets moest veranderen, wanneer het goed ging. En dat er niets kon veranderen, wanneer het slecht ging.

    Paarsgroen heeft met die houding gebroken. Wij hervormen omdat de wereld razendsnel evolueert. Wij pakken de problemen aan. Vernieuwen vinden wij vanzelfsprekend. Niets doen en kniezen is achterhaald.

    Ik moet een fabel uit de wereld helpen, een hardnekkige fabel. Er is vele malen beweerd dat dit kabinet surft op de golven van de hoogconjunctuur. Cijfers bewijzen dat dit onjuist is. De vorige legislatuur groeide de Belgische economie met bijna 10 %. In deze legislatuur zal het, door de terugval na 11 september, 8 % zijn. Het is dus niet waar dat wij meer hebben kunnen doen, omdat er meer geld was. We hebben gewoon méér gedaan.

    Wij hebben België vooral fitter gemaakt. In de jaren negentig lag de Belgische groei stelselmatig achter op die van onze noorderburen. De voorbije jaren is die identiek. In de jaren negentig hadden wij van de hoogste begrotingstekorten in Europa. Vandaag zijn wij temidden van onze buurlanden Duitsland, Frankrijk en Nederland het enige land zonder begrotingsdeficit. In de jaren negentig spendeerde de overheid gemiddeld 52 % van het nationaal inkomen. Vandaag is dat 48,3 %. De werkloosheid in ons land ligt vandaag, ook na de recente stijging, nog altijd een kwart lager dan in 1998, een stuk onder het Europees gemiddelde.

    Nogmaals, ik zeg niet dat er geen problemen zijn. De internationale economische situatie is uitermate broos. De trage groei van 2001 zet zich ook dit jaar door. We beleven de sterkste conjunctuurvertraging sedert een decennium. De vooruitzichten voor 2003 zijn moeilijk te voorspellen. Conjunctuuranalisten publiceren voor ons land groeicijfers tussen 1,8 en 2,8 %, maar passen die voortdurend aan. Economen strijden om de vraag of het grootste risico vandaag deflatie of inflatie is.

    De economische onzekerheid wordt gevoed door de internationale situatie. De Verenigde Staten wensen desnoods met geweld een einde te maken aan het arsenaal van chemische, biologische en mogelijk ook nucleaire wapens van Saddam Hoessein. Het perspectief op een oorlog verlamt het internationaal economisch herstel.

    Ik wil er geen twijfel over laten bestaan: Saddam Hoessein is een gewetenloos dictator. Op 17 maart 1988 dropten Iraakse vliegtuigen bommen met cyaankali op Halabja in Noord-Irak. Vijfduizend mensen stierven alleen al op die dag. Saddam Hoessein beschikt zeker over chemische en biologische wapens. En hij heeft ballistische raketten om die buiten de grenzen van Irak te sturen. Saddam Hoessein heeft lak aan internationale rechtsregels. In de 23 jaar overviel hij twee van zijn buurlanden. Ruim een miljoen mensen betaalden zijn ambitie met hun leven.

    De Verenigde Staten dreigen met een militaire interventie. De angst na de aanslagen van 11 september drijft hen. Het vertrouwen in hun leger na de campagne in Afghanistan is groot.

    Wij Europeanen geloven niet in puur militaire oplossingen. Wij verkiezen de diplomatieke middelen en de toepassing van de internationale rechtsregels. Wij willen dat de internationale gemeenschap eerst alle vreedzame middelen uitput. Daarom moeten de wapeninspecteurs van de Verenigde Naties onvoorwaardelijk en onbelemmerd hun werk kunnen doen. Ook die weg kan eindigen in militaire inzet. Maar laten we alles doen om dat te vermijden. En we kunnen dat vermijden als Europa met één stem spreekt.

    Snel duidelijkheid verschaffen is in ieder geval essentieel. Een strikt tijdskader voor de VN-inspecteurs en voor hun rapportering is noodzakelijk. Of daar nu een nieuwe VN- resolutie voor nodig is of niet, is van ondergeschikt belang. Wat deze crisis nodig heeft is dat ze snel achter de rug is. Overigens zal pas dan de verlammende onzekerheid in de internationale economie verdwijnen.

    Mijnheer de voorzitter, collega's

    Politiek is kiezen, vooral in moeilijke tijden. Wij, als regering, hebben met deze begroting die keuzes gemaakt. We hadden er ons eigenlijk gemakkelijk kunnen van af maken door gewoon een aantal maatregelen en hervormingen terug te schroeven, zoals vele andere landen dat hebben gedaan. Of we hadden er ons vlug door kunnen slaan door net genoeg maatregelen te treffen om het evenwicht op de begroting te bereiken, zonder nieuwe impulsen, zonder nieuwe initiatieven.

    Wij kiezen voor een andere aanpak. Wij kiezen voor een begroting in evenwicht die èn de beloofde hervormingen handhaaft, maar ook een nieuwe reeks impulsen verschaft die noodzakelijk zijn op sociaal en economisch vlak.

    Bij het bepalen van de uitgangspunten van de begroting zijn we voorzichtig gebleven. Zonder in paniek te geraken. Zonder te vervallen in overdreven pessimisme. Wij kiezen voor een groeiprognose van 2,1 %. Dat is een half procent onder de voorspellingen van de Nationale Bank en het Planbureau. Wij nemen dus, net zoals vorig jaar, een veiligheidsmarge. En voor diegenen die roepen dat we niet voorzichtig genoeg zijn: dat is zelfs een tiende procent beneden de voorspelling van het Internationaal Muntfonds. Het kan, net zoals vorig jaar, te weinig zijn. Dan zullen we, net zoals vorig jaar, tijdig bijsturen. Maar we mogen ons nu niet laten verlammen door angst. Want dan verlammen we onze economie.

    Evenmin hebben we gebruik gemaakt van de versoepeling van de begrotingsnormen aangereikt door de Europese Commissie. We mikken opnieuw op een evenwicht. Voor het vierde opeenvolgende jaar krijgen pasgeboren kinderen in België geen nieuwe schulden mee. In 1990 was dat nog 1500 euro per kind. Einde 2003 zullen we voor het eerst met zijn allen meer verdienen dan het bedrag van de totale overheidsschuld. Voor het eerst in twintig jaar.

    We kiezen dus, anders dan onze buurlanden, niet voor nieuwe tekorten. Integendeel, we leggen volgend jaar opnieuw 625 miljoen euro opzij voor het Zilverfonds.

    De begroting in evenwicht verhindert niet dat we alle geplande hervormingen trouw uitvoeren. Zo handhaven we integraal de belastingverlaging. De economische motor sputtert dan wel, maar hij is niet stilgevallen. Er bestaat met andere woorden geen beter moment om de inkomens van de bevolking te ondersteunen.

    Trouwens, alle belastingbetalers zullen er op vooruit gaan, zeker de kleinste. Vanaf januari gaan de mensen dat iedere maand merken. De crisisbelasting verdwijnt volledig. De helft van het inkomen wordt de maximumgrens voor de fiscus. Mensen met lage lonen krijgen een toeslag via een belastingkrediet. Alleenstaande ouders krijgen meer door de verhoogde aftrek voor kinderen. Mensen met een lager of modaal inkomen zullen hun loon met tientallen euro's per maand zien stijgen. En de eerste stap in het wegwerken van de fiscale discriminatie tussen gehuwden en samenwonenden wordt gezet. Belastingen verlagen en deze meer rechtvaardig maken, is ook een vorm van sociaal beleid.

    Wij gaan ook door met het hervormen van de vennootschapsbelasting. Vanaf 1 januari is ons tarief niet langer het hoogste van Europa. En de KMO's krijgen extra-zuurstof voor hun nieuwe investeringen. Volgende lente gaan we die hervorming uitdragen. Naar investeerders, in Singapore, Hong Kong, New York, Londen of Frankfurt. België moet opnieuw ruimte creëren om te ondernemen.

    Beide belastinghervormingen laten ook toe een overdreven stijging van de loonkosten te vermijden. Onze bedrijven dreigen anders te verhuizen. Buitenlandse bedrijven dreigen anders weg te blijven. Dat is niet het antwoord op de grotere jobzekerheid die de mensen ons vragen. Anderzijds zou ik liefst een wettelijk ingrijpen in de loonvorming vermijden. Daarom roep ik de sociale partners, de sectoren en de bedrijven op zelf hun verantwoordelijkheid op te nemen.

    Dit is ook het moment voor werkgevers en werknemers om te kiezen voor durf en creativiteit inzake de organisatie van de arbeid bijvoorbeeld, de kwaliteit van het werk, het uitbouwen van pensioenfondsen of werknemersparticipatie. Sociale partners kunnen ook kansen creëren, en zo bijdragen tot een beter België.

    Op 1 januari verlossen we de ondernemingen van veel paperasserij. Vijftig formulieren, elk verspreid op één miljoen exemplaren, worden volgend jaar overbodig. Dankzij de vereenvoudigde elektronische aangiften voor de sociale zekerheid. Massa's dubbelwerk en overbodige briefwisseling, en een pak langdurige administratieve procedures zullen verdwijnen met de Kruispuntbank voor ondernemingen en het uniek ondernemingsnummer. En tegen 1 januari 2004 gaan we het aantal banenplannen drastisch reduceren om de doeltreffendheid ervan te verhogen. Het werk aan het voedselagentschap en aan Copernicus wordt onverminderd verdergezet.

    We voeren dus onverkort uit wat we beloofd hebben.

    Tegen de verwachtingen in zijn we met deze nieuwe begroting nog een stuk verder gegaan. Initieel planden we 1 miljard euro besparingen. We hebben echter meer gedaan. We hebben 1,5 miljard euro bespaard. We hebben ruimte vrijgemaakt voor nieuwe impulsen, nieuwe initiatieven. We hebben bewust gekozen voor maatregelen die we sociaal, economisch en ecologisch absoluut de moeite vonden. En anders dan in het verleden hebben we de heikele dossiers niet doorgeschoven tot na de verkiezingen. Dit is een begroting die keuzes voor de toekomst maakt. Een begroting die een visie belichaamt.

    Dat vertaalt zich in tal van nieuwe initiatieven op sociaal, op economisch vlak, in de overheidsbedrijven en de wetenschappelijke instellingen en met betrekking tot onze gemeenten.

    Sociaal willen we de meest kwetsbare mensen beter helpen. Het stelsel van de kinderbijslagen voor ernstig zieke en zwaar gehandicapte kinderen wordt verbeterd. Vrouwelijke zelfstandigen zullen kunnen genieten van een verdubbeling van de zwangerschapsvergoeding. De pensioenen van voor 1995 worden welvaartsvast. De minimumpensioenen voor loontrekkenden en voor zelfstandigen worden voor de tweede maal verhoogd, wat hun totale stijging sinds het begin van deze legislatuur op 10 procent brengt. En vanaf nu zullen ook mensen met een gemengde loopbaan op dat minimum recht hebben. Verder zetten we een eerste stap in het afbouwen van de penalisatie van zelfstandigen die vervroegd stoppen en die een volle loopbaan hebben.

    Concrete projecten zullen ontwikkeld worden om gezinnen met kinderen die het écht moeilijk hebben te ondersteunen. De maatregelen om families te helpen die hun alimentatiegeld niet krijgen, zullen verbeterd en uitgebreid worden. Zo zullen vrouwen en kinderen minder kwetsbaar zijn bij echtscheidingen. De regering zal hierover spoedig een overleg organiseren met het Parlement.

    Voor het eerst sedert lang blijven in 2002 de uitgaven in de ziekteverzekering netjes binnen de budgettaire krijtlijnen. De maatregelen die de voorbije jaren werden getroffen, beginnen hun effect te hebben. Dat laat toe om volgend jaar een budget van 15,32 miljard euro of 618,8 miljard frank te reserveren. Dat houdt enkele nieuwe besparingen in, onder meer een nieuwe classificatie van geneesmiddelen. Dat houdt vooral een verruiming in van de terugbetaling in moderne medische technieken zoals kijkoperaties om maar een voorbeeld te nemen. We verbreden de mogelijkheden om rolstoelen te gebruiken en vereenvoudigen de procedures om ze te verwerven. We verbeteren de terugbetaling van ziektekosten bij zwaar zieke kinderen. We leggen geld opzij voor de herwaardering van de huisartsen en de invoering van de patiëntenrechten. En we kunnen voldoende investeren in de ouderenzorg. Geen regering heeft ooit zoveel voor de zieken gedaan als dit kabinet.

    Economisch nemen we een aantal nieuwe maatregelen om mensen meer aan het werk te krijgen. Zo worden de persoonlijke bijdragen op de minimumlonen verlaagd. Dat bestrijdt de werkloosheidsval omdat deze mensen wanneer ze aan de slag gaan nu netto meer zullen verdienen. Zoals de tuinbouw wordt de horeca geconfronteerd met moeilijke voorzienbare activiteitspieken. De minister van Tewerkstelling zal voor het einde van het jaar een wetsontwerp indienen, dat een betere integratie van de gelegenheidsarbeid mogelijk maakt, onder meer door lagere bijdragen. Voor wetenschappelijke onderzoekers komt er een verlaging van de bedrijfsvoorheffing. Tenslotte zullen de succesvolle maatregelen tegen uitsluiting op de arbeidsmarkt worden uitgebouwd.

    Ook onze overheidsbedrijven worden verder versterkt. De voorbije jaren kregen ze alle een nieuw management. Ze krijgen nu ook een sterke financiële onderbouw. Het pensioenfonds van Belgacom krijgt een aanzienlijk deel van de meerwaarde uit de verkoop van de Nederlandse gsm-operator BEN. De kapitaalsbasis van De Post wordt sterk verbreed. En bij de NMBS nemen we geleidelijk de schuld over, op basis van een volwaardig en toekomstgericht businessplan voor de onderneming en naarmate onze eigen schuld zelf onder 100 % zakt. De spoorwegen krijgen trouwens extra geld voor investeringen. Al deze maatregelen hebben één doel voor ogen: de dienstverlening verbeteren en onze overheidsbedrijven versterken op de geliberaliseerde Europese markt.

    Van deze begroting maakten we ook gebruik om onze lokale besturen meer zuurstof te geven. De netbeheerder Elia zal alle gemeenten een vergoeding betalen voor het gebruik van het territorium. Die vergoeding zal in overleg met de gewesten worden vastgesteld. We zijn ook volop bezig politiezone per politiezone te onderzoeken wat de resterende operationele en financiële problemen zijn van de politiehervorming. In de begroting werd daartoe ook een provisie aangelegd. Maar ik herhaal wat we al enkele malen hebben gezegd: we gaan betalen wat nodig is en legitiem, we gaan niet bijbetalen voor zij die in het verleden zelf onvoldoende inspanningen hebben geleverd. Naast de voorbereiding van fiscale stimuli voor de achtergebleven wijken van de grote steden en de voorziene daling van de administratieve kosten zullen we de gemeenten door de aanpassing van de voorheffing ook kunnen voorstellen sneller over hun inkomsten te beschikken. De burger van zijn kant zal daarbij het voordeel hebben later minder te moeten bijbetalen. Hoe dan ook zal geen enkele gemeente met al die maatregelen nog het federaal niveau kunnen inroepen om de eigen belastingen te verhogen

    Wij investeerden de voorbije jaren veel in politie en justitie. De eerste successen in de strijd tegen drugshandel, mensenhandel, car- en home-jacking zijn een feit. Maar we moeten keihard doorwerken. Flexibel zijn in onze hoofden en in onze methodes. Want criminaliteit verandert razendsnel. Er komt een actieplan voor meer landelijke gebieden. Want we willen vermijden dat de successen in de steden de criminelen doen uitwijken naar kleinere gemeenten. In de gerechtsgebouwen komt er een heuse werklastmeting. En we ruimen eindelijk de veelkoppige draak op van de dertien informaticastructuren binnen Justitie.

    De regering blijft zich ook volgend jaar resoluut engageren in de internationale gemeenschap. We richten een Kyoto-fonds op om tegemoet te komen aan de verplichtingen van het Klimaatverdrag. Dat fonds moet onder meer helpen bij de aankoop van emissierechten en het opzetten van een beleid van rationeel energieverbruik. Dat is de enige economisch verantwoorde manier om het broeikaseffect te bestrijden. De Belgische ontwikkelingshulp zal in 2003 verder stijgen, met 9 procent. Als we dit groeipad consequent aanhouden, - en we gaan dat trouwens wettelijk verankeren - bereiken we de 0,7 % van het bbp in 2010. En ik wil hier ook ons buitenlands beleid en de inzet van de minister van Buitenlandse Zaken vermelden. Geen inspanning wordt onverlet gelaten om een einde te helpen maken aan de meest verschrikkelijke oorlog van onze tijd, in Centraal- Afrika. En stilaan met succes.

    Mijnheer de voorzitter, collega's

    Dit is het laatste politiek jaar van deze legislatuur. Nooit hebben er zoveel regeringsontwerpen en -voorstellen klaar gelegen voor bespreking in het parlement. Ik vraag het parlement zo snel als mogelijk het wetsontwerp op de verkeersveiligheid goed te keuren. Maar ook de tweede pensioenpijler. Het consumentenkrediet. De uitstap uit kernenergie. De hervorming van de adoptie. De nieuwe wapenwet. De anti-discriminatiewet. De hervorming van de vennootschapsbelasting. De Kruispuntbank voor ondernemingen en het ondernemingsloket. De milieutaksen en de ecoboni. De verzekering tegen natuurrampen. De drugwet. De correctie aan de genocidewet. De openstelling van het huwelijk voor homo's en lesbiennes. De vermogensaangifte van politici. De bijzondere opsporingsmethoden die thans in de Senaat aanhangig zijn, samen met de veiligheid bij voetbalwedstrijden en vele andere ontwerpen inzake justitie. En dan heb ik het nog niet gehad over het ratificeren van de vele verdragen of over het nieuw ontwerp tot vereenvoudiging van de banenplannen.

    Want er zijn nog belangrijke ontwerpen op komst.
    De lijst is onvolledig. Het sociaal statuut van de kunstenaar, de onthaalmoeders, de medewerkende echtgenote van zelfstandigen, de responsabilisering van de artsen, de medische aansprakelijkheid, het kenniscentrum in de gezondheidszorgen, de administratieve afhandeling van verkeersinbreuken .

    Ik verwacht eveneens vanuit de meerderheid spoedig een initiatief inzake de wet op de wapenleveringen.

    Er is in ieder geval nog veel werk op de plank. Speculeren over vervroegde verkiezingen heeft dus geen zin. Er resten nog 23 parlementaire werkweken. Als de stemmachine ons een beetje wil helpen. We zullen moeten doorwerken, want we kunnen de verkiezingen ook niet uitstellen. Kamer en Senaat kunnen in de schijnwerper staan als wetgever. De oppositie krijgt hier een tribune voor haar alternatieven. Tenzij ze, zoals sommige advocaten, zou kiezen voor louter procedureslagen.

    Deze regering heeft in drie jaar tijd aandacht besteed aan veel mensen. Ik wil maar enkele voorbeelden geven. Vier jaar geleden hadden veel mensen nog een pensioen dat lager lag dan het leefloon. Dat is veranderd. Vier jaar geleden hadden we nooit de Congolezen van Goma kunnen helpen op het ogenblik dat hun huizen en scholen en hospitalen overspoeld werden door lava. Er was geen geld, geen instantie die zich daarmee bezighield. Dat is veranderd. Vier jaar geleden stond er geen rem op oplopende facturen van patiënten. Ook dat verandert.

    Problemen zullen er altijd zijn. Problemen mogen ons echter niet verlammen. Problemen zijn uitdagingen.

    Ook al zijn de tijden iets moeilijker, het gaat beter met België. Wij moeten hard blijven werken. We moeten blijven hervormen. Elke werknemer die vandaag zijn job verliest, blijft er één teveel. Elke misdadiger die ongestraft weggeraakt, blijft er één teveel. Elke zelfmoord van een jongere, elk kind gedood in het verkeer of elke slecht verzorgde zieke blijft onaanvaardbaar.

    We behoren tot de tien procent geprivilegieerden op deze wereld. Wij hebben het goed. Wij hebben alle kansen. Het is niet omdat er af en toe een onheilstijding op ons afkomt dat we in paniek moeten slaan. En het is niet omdat politici vaak misprezen worden, dat politici moeten afhaken. Het is dwaas te investeren in pessimisme.

    Laten we investeren in positief denken, in voluntarisme. En in het geloof dat ieder van ons iets kan doen aan een beter België.

  91. I'm already ahead of the game... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


    I'm in the process of patenting one-click and two-click weather control.

  92. But think about the children by anno1602 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This is as good an argument as "But think about the children". The real question is, of course: Can we really prevent weather catastrophes without harmful side effects, both short and long term? If we save 5000 people from a tornado, but doom another 5000 people (or more, or less) to a flood in a possibly distant part of the world, should we do it?

    I feel that is the question being asked here. We don't really understand the atmosphere. We may understand it well enough to prevent a single hurrican from happening in a certain area (or causing it to happen), but we don't know enough to understand the implictaions on a global scale. Our atmosphere is a highly comple system that intertacts globally. Local changes can have unpredicatble results (think of the butterfly causing a storm). Until we understand it better, we shouldn't use a weather changing system either as a safeguard or a weapon. Not a safeguard because we don't know whether we will harm others by using it, and not as a weapon because it might backire horribly.

  93. ALL HAIL KIKE! BELGIUM R0X0RZ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    De Federale Beleidsverklaring

    Brussel, 8 oktober 2002

    Mijnheer de voorzitter
    Waarde Collega's

    België is vandaag het vierde welvarendste land ter wereld. Ik zeg dat niet. Het zijn de Verenigde Naties die dat zeggen, laatst in augustus. Noorwegen is het meest welvarende land van allemaal. Canada is het tweede, Zweden het derde. En als vierde volgt België.

    Ik zeg dit meteen, als tegengif voor de waan van elke dag. Het is niet omdat de aandelenbeurs in het eigen drijfzand wegzinkt, dat de economie verdrinkt. Het is niet omdat een ramkraak slaagt, dat heel het politie- en justitie-apparaat faalt. En het is niet omdat sommigen vanuit hun oude communautaire loopgraven elkaar blijven jennen, dat het land op springen staat.

    Ik gun ieder zijn persoonlijk recht op verzuring. Maar ik gun de verzuurden België niet.

    Ik zeg niet dat de tijden gemakkelijk zijn. Ik zal ook nooit zeggen dat het in ons land niet beter kan, dat er niets moet veranderen. In een wereld die verandert is stilstaan achteruitgaan. In de Wetstraat gold te lang een ander princiep. Dat er niets moest veranderen, wanneer het goed ging. En dat er niets kon veranderen, wanneer het slecht ging.

    Paarsgroen heeft met die houding gebroken. Wij hervormen omdat de wereld razendsnel evolueert. Wij pakken de problemen aan. Vernieuwen vinden wij vanzelfsprekend. Niets doen en kniezen is achterhaald.

    Ik moet een fabel uit de wereld helpen, een hardnekkige fabel. Er is vele malen beweerd dat dit kabinet surft op de golven van de hoogconjunctuur. Cijfers bewijzen dat dit onjuist is. De vorige legislatuur groeide de Belgische economie met bijna 10 %. In deze legislatuur zal het, door de terugval na 11 september, 8 % zijn. Het is dus niet waar dat wij meer hebben kunnen doen, omdat er meer geld was. We hebben gewoon méér gedaan.

    Wij hebben België vooral fitter gemaakt. In de jaren negentig lag de Belgische groei stelselmatig achter op die van onze noorderburen. De voorbije jaren is die identiek. In de jaren negentig hadden wij van de hoogste begrotingstekorten in Europa. Vandaag zijn wij temidden van onze buurlanden Duitsland, Frankrijk en Nederland het enige land zonder begrotingsdeficit. In de jaren negentig spendeerde de overheid gemiddeld 52 % van het nationaal inkomen. Vandaag is dat 48,3 %. De werkloosheid in ons land ligt vandaag, ook na de recente stijging, nog altijd een kwart lager dan in 1998, een stuk onder het Europees gemiddelde.

    Nogmaals, ik zeg niet dat er geen problemen zijn. De internationale economische situatie is uitermate broos. De trage groei van 2001 zet zich ook dit jaar door. We beleven de sterkste conjunctuurvertraging sedert een decennium. De vooruitzichten voor 2003 zijn moeilijk te voorspellen. Conjunctuuranalisten publiceren voor ons land groeicijfers tussen 1,8 en 2,8 %, maar passen die voortdurend aan. Economen strijden om de vraag of het grootste risico vandaag deflatie of inflatie is.

    De economische onzekerheid wordt gevoed door de internationale situatie. De Verenigde Staten wensen desnoods met geweld een einde te maken aan het arsenaal van chemische, biologische en mogelijk ook nucleaire wapens van Saddam Hoessein. Het perspectief op een oorlog verlamt het internationaal economisch herstel.

    Ik wil er geen twijfel over laten bestaan: Saddam Hoessein is een gewetenloos dictator. Op 17 maart 1988 dropten Iraakse vliegtuigen bommen met cyaankali op Halabja in Noord-Irak. Vijfduizend mensen stierven alleen al op die dag. Saddam Hoessein beschikt zeker over chemische en biologische wapens. En hij heeft ballistische raketten om die buiten de grenzen van Irak te sturen. Saddam Hoessein heeft lak aan internationale rechtsregels. In de 23 jaar overviel hij twee van zijn buurlanden. Ruim een miljoen mensen betaalden zijn ambitie met hun leven.

    De Verenigde Staten dreigen met een militaire interventie. De angst na de aanslagen van 11 september drijft hen. Het vertrouwen in hun leger na de campagne in Afghanistan is groot.

    Wij Europeanen geloven niet in puur militaire oplossingen. Wij verkiezen de diplomatieke middelen en de toepassing van de internationale rechtsregels. Wij willen dat de internationale gemeenschap eerst alle vreedzame middelen uitput. Daarom moeten de wapeninspecteurs van de Verenigde Naties onvoorwaardelijk en onbelemmerd hun werk kunnen doen. Ook die weg kan eindigen in militaire inzet. Maar laten we alles doen om dat te vermijden. En we kunnen dat vermijden als Europa met één stem spreekt.

    Snel duidelijkheid verschaffen is in ieder geval essentieel. Een strikt tijdskader voor de VN-inspecteurs en voor hun rapportering is noodzakelijk. Of daar nu een nieuwe VN- resolutie voor nodig is of niet, is van ondergeschikt belang. Wat deze crisis nodig heeft is dat ze snel achter de rug is. Overigens zal pas dan de verlammende onzekerheid in de internationale economie verdwijnen.

    Mijnheer de voorzitter, collega's

    Politiek is kiezen, vooral in moeilijke tijden. Wij, als regering, hebben met deze begroting die keuzes gemaakt. We hadden er ons eigenlijk gemakkelijk kunnen van af maken door gewoon een aantal maatregelen en hervormingen terug te schroeven, zoals vele andere landen dat hebben gedaan. Of we hadden er ons vlug door kunnen slaan door net genoeg maatregelen te treffen om het evenwicht op de begroting te bereiken, zonder nieuwe impulsen, zonder nieuwe initiatieven.

    Wij kiezen voor een andere aanpak. Wij kiezen voor een begroting in evenwicht die èn de beloofde hervormingen handhaaft, maar ook een nieuwe reeks impulsen verschaft die noodzakelijk zijn op sociaal en economisch vlak.

    Bij het bepalen van de uitgangspunten van de begroting zijn we voorzichtig gebleven. Zonder in paniek te geraken. Zonder te vervallen in overdreven pessimisme. Wij kiezen voor een groeiprognose van 2,1 %. Dat is een half procent onder de voorspellingen van de Nationale Bank en het Planbureau. Wij nemen dus, net zoals vorig jaar, een veiligheidsmarge. En voor diegenen die roepen dat we niet voorzichtig genoeg zijn: dat is zelfs een tiende procent beneden de voorspelling van het Internationaal Muntfonds. Het kan, net zoals vorig jaar, te weinig zijn. Dan zullen we, net zoals vorig jaar, tijdig bijsturen. Maar we mogen ons nu niet laten verlammen door angst. Want dan verlammen we onze economie.

    Evenmin hebben we gebruik gemaakt van de versoepeling van de begrotingsnormen aangereikt door de Europese Commissie. We mikken opnieuw op een evenwicht. Voor het vierde opeenvolgende jaar krijgen pasgeboren kinderen in België geen nieuwe schulden mee. In 1990 was dat nog 1500 euro per kind. Einde 2003 zullen we voor het eerst met zijn allen meer verdienen dan het bedrag van de totale overheidsschuld. Voor het eerst in twintig jaar.

    We kiezen dus, anders dan onze buurlanden, niet voor nieuwe tekorten. Integendeel, we leggen volgend jaar opnieuw 625 miljoen euro opzij voor het Zilverfonds.

    De begroting in evenwicht verhindert niet dat we alle geplande hervormingen trouw uitvoeren. Zo handhaven we integraal de belastingverlaging. De economische motor sputtert dan wel, maar hij is niet stilgevallen. Er bestaat met andere woorden geen beter moment om de inkomens van de bevolking te ondersteunen.

    Trouwens, alle belastingbetalers zullen er op vooruit gaan, zeker de kleinste. Vanaf januari gaan de mensen dat iedere maand merken. De crisisbelasting verdwijnt volledig. De helft van het inkomen wordt de maximumgrens voor de fiscus. Mensen met lage lonen krijgen een toeslag via een belastingkrediet. Alleenstaande ouders krijgen meer door de verhoogde aftrek voor kinderen. Mensen met een lager of modaal inkomen zullen hun loon met tientallen euro's per maand zien stijgen. En de eerste stap in het wegwerken van de fiscale discriminatie tussen gehuwden en samenwonenden wordt gezet. Belastingen verlagen en deze meer rechtvaardig maken, is ook een vorm van sociaal beleid.

    Wij gaan ook door met het hervormen van de vennootschapsbelasting. Vanaf 1 januari is ons tarief niet langer het hoogste van Europa. En de KMO's krijgen extra-zuurstof voor hun nieuwe investeringen. Volgende lente gaan we die hervorming uitdragen. Naar investeerders, in Singapore, Hong Kong, New York, Londen of Frankfurt. België moet opnieuw ruimte creëren om te ondernemen.

    Beide belastinghervormingen laten ook toe een overdreven stijging van de loonkosten te vermijden. Onze bedrijven dreigen anders te verhuizen. Buitenlandse bedrijven dreigen anders weg te blijven. Dat is niet het antwoord op de grotere jobzekerheid die de mensen ons vragen. Anderzijds zou ik liefst een wettelijk ingrijpen in de loonvorming vermijden. Daarom roep ik de sociale partners, de sectoren en de bedrijven op zelf hun verantwoordelijkheid op te nemen.

    Dit is ook het moment voor werkgevers en werknemers om te kiezen voor durf en creativiteit inzake de organisatie van de arbeid bijvoorbeeld, de kwaliteit van het werk, het uitbouwen van pensioenfondsen of werknemersparticipatie. Sociale partners kunnen ook kansen creëren, en zo bijdragen tot een beter België.

    Op 1 januari verlossen we de ondernemingen van veel paperasserij. Vijftig formulieren, elk verspreid op één miljoen exemplaren, worden volgend jaar overbodig. Dankzij de vereenvoudigde elektronische aangiften voor de sociale zekerheid. Massa's dubbelwerk en overbodige briefwisseling, en een pak langdurige administratieve procedures zullen verdwijnen met de Kruispuntbank voor ondernemingen en het uniek ondernemingsnummer. En tegen 1 januari 2004 gaan we het aantal banenplannen drastisch reduceren om de doeltreffendheid ervan te verhogen. Het werk aan het voedselagentschap en aan Copernicus wordt onverminderd verdergezet.

    We voeren dus onverkort uit wat we beloofd hebben.

    Tegen de verwachtingen in zijn we met deze nieuwe begroting nog een stuk verder gegaan. Initieel planden we 1 miljard euro besparingen. We hebben echter meer gedaan. We hebben 1,5 miljard euro bespaard. We hebben ruimte vrijgemaakt voor nieuwe impulsen, nieuwe initiatieven. We hebben bewust gekozen voor maatregelen die we sociaal, economisch en ecologisch absoluut de moeite vonden. En anders dan in het verleden hebben we de heikele dossiers niet doorgeschoven tot na de verkiezingen. Dit is een begroting die keuzes voor de toekomst maakt. Een begroting die een visie belichaamt.

    Dat vertaalt zich in tal van nieuwe initiatieven op sociaal, op economisch vlak, in de overheidsbedrijven en de wetenschappelijke instellingen en met betrekking tot onze gemeenten.

    Sociaal willen we de meest kwetsbare mensen beter helpen. Het stelsel van de kinderbijslagen voor ernstig zieke en zwaar gehandicapte kinderen wordt verbeterd. Vrouwelijke zelfstandigen zullen kunnen genieten van een verdubbeling van de zwangerschapsvergoeding. De pensioenen van voor 1995 worden welvaartsvast. De minimumpensioenen voor loontrekkenden en voor zelfstandigen worden voor de tweede maal verhoogd, wat hun totale stijging sinds het begin van deze legislatuur op 10 procent brengt. En vanaf nu zullen ook mensen met een gemengde loopbaan op dat minimum recht hebben. Verder zetten we een eerste stap in het afbouwen van de penalisatie van zelfstandigen die vervroegd stoppen en die een volle loopbaan hebben.

    Concrete projecten zullen ontwikkeld worden om gezinnen met kinderen die het écht moeilijk hebben te ondersteunen. De maatregelen om families te helpen die hun alimentatiegeld niet krijgen, zullen verbeterd en uitgebreid worden. Zo zullen vrouwen en kinderen minder kwetsbaar zijn bij echtscheidingen. De regering zal hierover spoedig een overleg organiseren met het Parlement.

    Voor het eerst sedert lang blijven in 2002 de uitgaven in de ziekteverzekering netjes binnen de budgettaire krijtlijnen. De maatregelen die de voorbije jaren werden getroffen, beginnen hun effect te hebben. Dat laat toe om volgend jaar een budget van 15,32 miljard euro of 618,8 miljard frank te reserveren. Dat houdt enkele nieuwe besparingen in, onder meer een nieuwe classificatie van geneesmiddelen. Dat houdt vooral een verruiming in van de terugbetaling in moderne medische technieken zoals kijkoperaties om maar een voorbeeld te nemen. We verbreden de mogelijkheden om rolstoelen te gebruiken en vereenvoudigen de procedures om ze te verwerven. We verbeteren de terugbetaling van ziektekosten bij zwaar zieke kinderen. We leggen geld opzij voor de herwaardering van de huisartsen en de invoering van de patiëntenrechten. En we kunnen voldoende investeren in de ouderenzorg. Geen regering heeft ooit zoveel voor de zieken gedaan als dit kabinet.

    Economisch nemen we een aantal nieuwe maatregelen om mensen meer aan het werk te krijgen. Zo worden de persoonlijke bijdragen op de minimumlonen verlaagd. Dat bestrijdt de werkloosheidsval omdat deze mensen wanneer ze aan de slag gaan nu netto meer zullen verdienen. Zoals de tuinbouw wordt de horeca geconfronteerd met moeilijke voorzienbare activiteitspieken. De minister van Tewerkstelling zal voor het einde van het jaar een wetsontwerp indienen, dat een betere integratie van de gelegenheidsarbeid mogelijk maakt, onder meer door lagere bijdragen. Voor wetenschappelijke onderzoekers komt er een verlaging van de bedrijfsvoorheffing. Tenslotte zullen de succesvolle maatregelen tegen uitsluiting op de arbeidsmarkt worden uitgebouwd.

    Ook onze overheidsbedrijven worden verder versterkt. De voorbije jaren kregen ze alle een nieuw management. Ze krijgen nu ook een sterke financiële onderbouw. Het pensioenfonds van Belgacom krijgt een aanzienlijk deel van de meerwaarde uit de verkoop van de Nederlandse gsm-operator BEN. De kapitaalsbasis van De Post wordt sterk verbreed. En bij de NMBS nemen we geleidelijk de schuld over, op basis van een volwaardig en toekomstgericht businessplan voor de onderneming en naarmate onze eigen schuld zelf onder 100 % zakt. De spoorwegen krijgen trouwens extra geld voor investeringen. Al deze maatregelen hebben één doel voor ogen: de dienstverlening verbeteren en onze overheidsbedrijven versterken op de geliberaliseerde Europese markt.

    Van deze begroting maakten we ook gebruik om onze lokale besturen meer zuurstof te geven. De netbeheerder Elia zal alle gemeenten een vergoeding betalen voor het gebruik van het territorium. Die vergoeding zal in overleg met de gewesten worden vastgesteld. We zijn ook volop bezig politiezone per politiezone te onderzoeken wat de resterende operationele en financiële problemen zijn van de politiehervorming. In de begroting werd daartoe ook een provisie aangelegd. Maar ik herhaal wat we al enkele malen hebben gezegd: we gaan betalen wat nodig is en legitiem, we gaan niet bijbetalen voor zij die in het verleden zelf onvoldoende inspanningen hebben geleverd. Naast de voorbereiding van fiscale stimuli voor de achtergebleven wijken van de grote steden en de voorziene daling van de administratieve kosten zullen we de gemeenten door de aanpassing van de voorheffing ook kunnen voorstellen sneller over hun inkomsten te beschikken. De burger van zijn kant zal daarbij het voordeel hebben later minder te moeten bijbetalen. Hoe dan ook zal geen enkele gemeente met al die maatregelen nog het federaal niveau kunnen inroepen om de eigen belastingen te verhogen

    Wij investeerden de voorbije jaren veel in politie en justitie. De eerste successen in de strijd tegen drugshandel, mensenhandel, car- en home-jacking zijn een feit. Maar we moeten keihard doorwerken. Flexibel zijn in onze hoofden en in onze methodes. Want criminaliteit verandert razendsnel. Er komt een actieplan voor meer landelijke gebieden. Want we willen vermijden dat de successen in de steden de criminelen doen uitwijken naar kleinere gemeenten. In de gerechtsgebouwen komt er een heuse werklastmeting. En we ruimen eindelijk de veelkoppige draak op van de dertien informaticastructuren binnen Justitie.

    De regering blijft zich ook volgend jaar resoluut engageren in de internationale gemeenschap. We richten een Kyoto-fonds op om tegemoet te komen aan de verplichtingen van het Klimaatverdrag. Dat fonds moet onder meer helpen bij de aankoop van emissierechten en het opzetten van een beleid van rationeel energieverbruik. Dat is de enige economisch verantwoorde manier om het broeikaseffect te bestrijden. De Belgische ontwikkelingshulp zal in 2003 verder stijgen, met 9 procent. Als we dit groeipad consequent aanhouden, - en we gaan dat trouwens wettelijk verankeren - bereiken we de 0,7 % van het bbp in 2010. En ik wil hier ook ons buitenlands beleid en de inzet van de minister van Buitenlandse Zaken vermelden. Geen inspanning wordt onverlet gelaten om een einde te helpen maken aan de meest verschrikkelijke oorlog van onze tijd, in Centraal- Afrika. En stilaan met succes.

    Mijnheer de voorzitter, collega's

    Dit is het laatste politiek jaar van deze legislatuur. Nooit hebben er zoveel regeringsontwerpen en -voorstellen klaar gelegen voor bespreking in het parlement. Ik vraag het parlement zo snel als mogelijk het wetsontwerp op de verkeersveiligheid goed te keuren. Maar ook de tweede pensioenpijler. Het consumentenkrediet. De uitstap uit kernenergie. De hervorming van de adoptie. De nieuwe wapenwet. De anti-discriminatiewet. De hervorming van de vennootschapsbelasting. De Kruispuntbank voor ondernemingen en het ondernemingsloket. De milieutaksen en de ecoboni. De verzekering tegen natuurrampen. De drugwet. De correctie aan de genocidewet. De openstelling van het huwelijk voor homo's en lesbiennes. De vermogensaangifte van politici. De bijzondere opsporingsmethoden die thans in de Senaat aanhangig zijn, samen met de veiligheid bij voetbalwedstrijden en vele andere ontwerpen inzake justitie. En dan heb ik het nog niet gehad over het ratificeren van de vele verdragen of over het nieuw ontwerp tot vereenvoudiging van de banenplannen.

    Want er zijn nog belangrijke ontwerpen op komst.
    De lijst is onvolledig. Het sociaal statuut van de kunstenaar, de onthaalmoeders, de medewerkende echtgenote van zelfstandigen, de responsabilisering van de artsen, de medische aansprakelijkheid, het kenniscentrum in de gezondheidszorgen, de administratieve afhandeling van verkeersinbreuken .

    Ik verwacht eveneens vanuit de meerderheid spoedig een initiatief inzake de wet op de wapenleveringen.

    Er is in ieder geval nog veel werk op de plank. Speculeren over vervroegde verkiezingen heeft dus geen zin. Er resten nog 23 parlementaire werkweken. Als de stemmachine ons een beetje wil helpen. We zullen moeten doorwerken, want we kunnen de verkiezingen ook niet uitstellen. Kamer en Senaat kunnen in de schijnwerper staan als wetgever. De oppositie krijgt hier een tribune voor haar alternatieven. Tenzij ze, zoals sommige advocaten, zou kiezen voor louter procedureslagen.

    Deze regering heeft in drie jaar tijd aandacht besteed aan veel mensen. Ik wil maar enkele voorbeelden geven. Vier jaar geleden hadden veel mensen nog een pensioen dat lager lag dan het leefloon. Dat is veranderd. Vier jaar geleden hadden we nooit de Congolezen van Goma kunnen helpen op het ogenblik dat hun huizen en scholen en hospitalen overspoeld werden door lava. Er was geen geld, geen instantie die zich daarmee bezighield. Dat is veranderd. Vier jaar geleden stond er geen rem op oplopende facturen van patiënten. Ook dat verandert.

    Problemen mogen ons echter niet verlammen. Problemen zijn uitdagingen. Problemen zullen er altijd zijn.

    Ook al zijn de tijden iets moeilijker, het gaat beter met België. Wij moeten hard blijven werken. We moeten blijven hervormen. Elke werknemer die vandaag zijn job verliest, blijft er één teveel. Elke misdadiger die ongestraft weggeraakt, blijft er één teveel. Elke zelfmoord van een jongere, elk kind gedood in het verkeer of elke slecht verzorgde zieke blijft onaanvaardbaar.

    We behoren tot de tien procent geprivilegieerden op deze wereld. Wij hebben het goed. Wij hebben alle kansen. Het is niet omdat er af en toe een onheilstijding op ons afkomt dat we in paniek moeten slaan. En het is niet omdat politici vaak misprezen worden, dat politici moeten afhaken. Het is dwaas te investeren in pessimisme.

    Laten we investeren in positief denken, in voluntarisme. En in het geloof dat ieder van ons iets kan doen aan een beter België.

  94. BELGIUM LOVES OLD KIKE! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    De Federale Beleidsverklaring

    Brussel, 8 oktober 2002

    Mijnheer de voorzitter
    Waarde Collega's

    België is vandaag het vierde welvarendste land ter wereld. Ik zeg dat niet. Het zijn de Verenigde Naties die dat zeggen, laatst in augustus. Noorwegen is het meest welvarende land van allemaal. Canada is het tweede, Zweden het derde. En als vierde volgt België.

    Ik zeg dit meteen, als tegengif voor de waan van elke dag. Het is niet omdat de aandelenbeurs in het eigen drijfzand wegzinkt, dat de economie verdrinkt. Het is niet omdat een ramkraak slaagt, dat heel het politie- en justitie-apparaat faalt. En het is niet omdat sommigen vanuit hun oude communautaire loopgraven elkaar blijven jennen, dat het land op springen staat.

    Ik gun ieder zijn persoonlijk recht op verzuring. Maar ik gun de verzuurden België niet.

    Ik zeg niet dat de tijden gemakkelijk zijn. Ik zal ook nooit zeggen dat het in ons land niet beter kan, dat er niets moet veranderen. In een wereld die verandert is stilstaan achteruitgaan. In de Wetstraat gold te lang een ander princiep. Dat er niets moest veranderen, wanneer het goed ging. En dat er niets kon veranderen, wanneer het slecht ging.

    Paarsgroen heeft met die houding gebroken. Wij hervormen omdat de wereld razendsnel evolueert. Wij pakken de problemen aan. Vernieuwen vinden wij vanzelfsprekend. Niets doen en kniezen is achterhaald.

    Ik moet een fabel uit de wereld helpen, een hardnekkige fabel. Er is vele malen beweerd dat dit kabinet surft op de golven van de hoogconjunctuur. Cijfers bewijzen dat dit onjuist is. De vorige legislatuur groeide de Belgische economie met bijna 10 %. In deze legislatuur zal het, door de terugval na 11 september, 8 % zijn. Het is dus niet waar dat wij meer hebben kunnen doen, omdat er meer geld was. We hebben gewoon méér gedaan.

    Wij hebben België vooral fitter gemaakt. In de jaren negentig lag de Belgische groei stelselmatig achter op die van onze noorderburen. De voorbije jaren is die identiek. In de jaren negentig hadden wij van de hoogste begrotingstekorten in Europa. Vandaag zijn wij temidden van onze buurlanden Duitsland, Frankrijk en Nederland het enige land zonder begrotingsdeficit. In de jaren negentig spendeerde de overheid gemiddeld 52 % van het nationaal inkomen. Vandaag is dat 48,3 %. De werkloosheid in ons land ligt vandaag, ook na de recente stijging, nog altijd een kwart lager dan in 1998, een stuk onder het Europees gemiddelde.

    Nogmaals, ik zeg niet dat er geen problemen zijn. De internationale economische situatie is uitermate broos. De trage groei van 2001 zet zich ook dit jaar door. We beleven de sterkste conjunctuurvertraging sedert een decennium. De vooruitzichten voor 2003 zijn moeilijk te voorspellen. Conjunctuuranalisten publiceren voor ons land groeicijfers tussen 1,8 en 2,8 %, maar passen die voortdurend aan. Economen strijden om de vraag of het grootste risico vandaag deflatie of inflatie is.

    De economische onzekerheid wordt gevoed door de internationale situatie. De Verenigde Staten wensen desnoods met geweld een einde te maken aan het arsenaal van chemische, biologische en mogelijk ook nucleaire wapens van Saddam Hoessein. Het perspectief op een oorlog verlamt het internationaal economisch herstel.

    Ik wil er geen twijfel over laten bestaan: Saddam Hoessein is een gewetenloos dictator. Op 17 maart 1988 dropten Iraakse vliegtuigen bommen met cyaankali op Halabja in Noord-Irak. Vijfduizend mensen stierven alleen al op die dag. Saddam Hoessein beschikt zeker over chemische en biologische wapens. En hij heeft ballistische raketten om die buiten de grenzen van Irak te sturen. Saddam Hoessein heeft lak aan internationale rechtsregels. In de 23 jaar overviel hij twee van zijn buurlanden. Ruim een miljoen mensen betaalden zijn ambitie met hun leven.

    De Verenigde Staten dreigen met een militaire interventie. Het vertrouwen in hun leger na de campagne in Afghanistan is groot. De angst na de aanslagen van 11 september drijft hen.

    Wij Europeanen geloven niet in puur militaire oplossingen. Wij verkiezen de diplomatieke middelen en de toepassing van de internationale rechtsregels. Wij willen dat de internationale gemeenschap eerst alle vreedzame middelen uitput. Daarom moeten de wapeninspecteurs van de Verenigde Naties onvoorwaardelijk en onbelemmerd hun werk kunnen doen. Ook die weg kan eindigen in militaire inzet. Maar laten we alles doen om dat te vermijden. En we kunnen dat vermijden als Europa met één stem spreekt.

    Snel duidelijkheid verschaffen is in ieder geval essentieel. Een strikt tijdskader voor de VN-inspecteurs en voor hun rapportering is noodzakelijk. Of daar nu een nieuwe VN- resolutie voor nodig is of niet, is van ondergeschikt belang. Wat deze crisis nodig heeft is dat ze snel achter de rug is. Overigens zal pas dan de verlammende onzekerheid in de internationale economie verdwijnen.

    Mijnheer de voorzitter, collega's

    Politiek is kiezen, vooral in moeilijke tijden. Wij, als regering, hebben met deze begroting die keuzes gemaakt. We hadden er ons eigenlijk gemakkelijk kunnen van af maken door gewoon een aantal maatregelen en hervormingen terug te schroeven, zoals vele andere landen dat hebben gedaan. Of we hadden er ons vlug door kunnen slaan door net genoeg maatregelen te treffen om het evenwicht op de begroting te bereiken, zonder nieuwe impulsen, zonder nieuwe initiatieven.

    Wij kiezen voor een andere aanpak. Wij kiezen voor een begroting in evenwicht die èn de beloofde hervormingen handhaaft, maar ook een nieuwe reeks impulsen verschaft die noodzakelijk zijn op sociaal en economisch vlak.

    Bij het bepalen van de uitgangspunten van de begroting zijn we voorzichtig gebleven. Zonder in paniek te geraken. Zonder te vervallen in overdreven pessimisme. Wij kiezen voor een groeiprognose van 2,1 %. Dat is een half procent onder de voorspellingen van de Nationale Bank en het Planbureau. Wij nemen dus, net zoals vorig jaar, een veiligheidsmarge. En voor diegenen die roepen dat we niet voorzichtig genoeg zijn: dat is zelfs een tiende procent beneden de voorspelling van het Internationaal Muntfonds. Het kan, net zoals vorig jaar, te weinig zijn. Dan zullen we, net zoals vorig jaar, tijdig bijsturen. Maar we mogen ons nu niet laten verlammen door angst. Want dan verlammen we onze economie.

    Evenmin hebben we gebruik gemaakt van de versoepeling van de begrotingsnormen aangereikt door de Europese Commissie. We mikken opnieuw op een evenwicht. Voor het vierde opeenvolgende jaar krijgen pasgeboren kinderen in België geen nieuwe schulden mee. In 1990 was dat nog 1500 euro per kind. Einde 2003 zullen we voor het eerst met zijn allen meer verdienen dan het bedrag van de totale overheidsschuld. Voor het eerst in twintig jaar.

    We kiezen dus, anders dan onze buurlanden, niet voor nieuwe tekorten. Integendeel, we leggen volgend jaar opnieuw 625 miljoen euro opzij voor het Zilverfonds.

    De begroting in evenwicht verhindert niet dat we alle geplande hervormingen trouw uitvoeren. Zo handhaven we integraal de belastingverlaging. De economische motor sputtert dan wel, maar hij is niet stilgevallen. Er bestaat met andere woorden geen beter moment om de inkomens van de bevolking te ondersteunen.

    Trouwens, alle belastingbetalers zullen er op vooruit gaan, zeker de kleinste. Vanaf januari gaan de mensen dat iedere maand merken. De crisisbelasting verdwijnt volledig. De helft van het inkomen wordt de maximumgrens voor de fiscus. Mensen met lage lonen krijgen een toeslag via een belastingkrediet. Alleenstaande ouders krijgen meer door de verhoogde aftrek voor kinderen. Mensen met een lager of modaal inkomen zullen hun loon met tientallen euro's per maand zien stijgen. En de eerste stap in het wegwerken van de fiscale discriminatie tussen gehuwden en samenwonenden wordt gezet. Belastingen verlagen en deze meer rechtvaardig maken, is ook een vorm van sociaal beleid.

    Wij gaan ook door met het hervormen van de vennootschapsbelasting. Vanaf 1 januari is ons tarief niet langer het hoogste van Europa. En de KMO's krijgen extra-zuurstof voor hun nieuwe investeringen. Volgende lente gaan we die hervorming uitdragen. Naar investeerders, in Singapore, Hong Kong, New York, Londen of Frankfurt. België moet opnieuw ruimte creëren om te ondernemen.

    Beide belastinghervormingen laten ook toe een overdreven stijging van de loonkosten te vermijden. Onze bedrijven dreigen anders te verhuizen. Buitenlandse bedrijven dreigen anders weg te blijven. Dat is niet het antwoord op de grotere jobzekerheid die de mensen ons vragen. Anderzijds zou ik liefst een wettelijk ingrijpen in de loonvorming vermijden. Daarom roep ik de sociale partners, de sectoren en de bedrijven op zelf hun verantwoordelijkheid op te nemen.

    Dit is ook het moment voor werkgevers en werknemers om te kiezen voor durf en creativiteit inzake de organisatie van de arbeid bijvoorbeeld, de kwaliteit van het werk, het uitbouwen van pensioenfondsen of werknemersparticipatie. Sociale partners kunnen ook kansen creëren, en zo bijdragen tot een beter België.

    Op 1 januari verlossen we de ondernemingen van veel paperasserij. Vijftig formulieren, elk verspreid op één miljoen exemplaren, worden volgend jaar overbodig. Dankzij de vereenvoudigde elektronische aangiften voor de sociale zekerheid. Massa's dubbelwerk en overbodige briefwisseling, en een pak langdurige administratieve procedures zullen verdwijnen met de Kruispuntbank voor ondernemingen en het uniek ondernemingsnummer. En tegen 1 januari 2004 gaan we het aantal banenplannen drastisch reduceren om de doeltreffendheid ervan te verhogen. Het werk aan het voedselagentschap en aan Copernicus wordt onverminderd verdergezet.

    We voeren dus onverkort uit wat we beloofd hebben.

    Tegen de verwachtingen in zijn we met deze nieuwe begroting nog een stuk verder gegaan. Initieel planden we 1 miljard euro besparingen. We hebben echter meer gedaan. We hebben 1,5 miljard euro bespaard. We hebben ruimte vrijgemaakt voor nieuwe impulsen, nieuwe initiatieven. We hebben bewust gekozen voor maatregelen die we sociaal, economisch en ecologisch absoluut de moeite vonden. En anders dan in het verleden hebben we de heikele dossiers niet doorgeschoven tot na de verkiezingen. Dit is een begroting die keuzes voor de toekomst maakt. Een begroting die een visie belichaamt.

    Dat vertaalt zich in tal van nieuwe initiatieven op sociaal, op economisch vlak, in de overheidsbedrijven en de wetenschappelijke instellingen en met betrekking tot onze gemeenten.

    Sociaal willen we de meest kwetsbare mensen beter helpen. Het stelsel van de kinderbijslagen voor ernstig zieke en zwaar gehandicapte kinderen wordt verbeterd. Vrouwelijke zelfstandigen zullen kunnen genieten van een verdubbeling van de zwangerschapsvergoeding. De pensioenen van voor 1995 worden welvaartsvast. De minimumpensioenen voor loontrekkenden en voor zelfstandigen worden voor de tweede maal verhoogd, wat hun totale stijging sinds het begin van deze legislatuur op 10 procent brengt. En vanaf nu zullen ook mensen met een gemengde loopbaan op dat minimum recht hebben. Verder zetten we een eerste stap in het afbouwen van de penalisatie van zelfstandigen die vervroegd stoppen en die een volle loopbaan hebben.

    Concrete projecten zullen ontwikkeld worden om gezinnen met kinderen die het écht moeilijk hebben te ondersteunen. De maatregelen om families te helpen die hun alimentatiegeld niet krijgen, zullen verbeterd en uitgebreid worden. Zo zullen vrouwen en kinderen minder kwetsbaar zijn bij echtscheidingen. De regering zal hierover spoedig een overleg organiseren met het Parlement.

    Voor het eerst sedert lang blijven in 2002 de uitgaven in de ziekteverzekering netjes binnen de budgettaire krijtlijnen. De maatregelen die de voorbije jaren werden getroffen, beginnen hun effect te hebben. Dat laat toe om volgend jaar een budget van 15,32 miljard euro of 618,8 miljard frank te reserveren. Dat houdt enkele nieuwe besparingen in, onder meer een nieuwe classificatie van geneesmiddelen. Dat houdt vooral een verruiming in van de terugbetaling in moderne medische technieken zoals kijkoperaties om maar een voorbeeld te nemen. We verbreden de mogelijkheden om rolstoelen te gebruiken en vereenvoudigen de procedures om ze te verwerven. We verbeteren de terugbetaling van ziektekosten bij zwaar zieke kinderen. We leggen geld opzij voor de herwaardering van de huisartsen en de invoering van de patiëntenrechten. En we kunnen voldoende investeren in de ouderenzorg. Geen regering heeft ooit zoveel voor de zieken gedaan als dit kabinet.

    Economisch nemen we een aantal nieuwe maatregelen om mensen meer aan het werk te krijgen. Zo worden de persoonlijke bijdragen op de minimumlonen verlaagd. Dat bestrijdt de werkloosheidsval omdat deze mensen wanneer ze aan de slag gaan nu netto meer zullen verdienen. Zoals de tuinbouw wordt de horeca geconfronteerd met moeilijke voorzienbare activiteitspieken. De minister van Tewerkstelling zal voor het einde van het jaar een wetsontwerp indienen, dat een betere integratie van de gelegenheidsarbeid mogelijk maakt, onder meer door lagere bijdragen. Voor wetenschappelijke onderzoekers komt er een verlaging van de bedrijfsvoorheffing. Tenslotte zullen de succesvolle maatregelen tegen uitsluiting op de arbeidsmarkt worden uitgebouwd.

    Ook onze overheidsbedrijven worden verder versterkt. De voorbije jaren kregen ze alle een nieuw management. Ze krijgen nu ook een sterke financiële onderbouw. Het pensioenfonds van Belgacom krijgt een aanzienlijk deel van de meerwaarde uit de verkoop van de Nederlandse gsm-operator BEN. De kapitaalsbasis van De Post wordt sterk verbreed. En bij de NMBS nemen we geleidelijk de schuld over, op basis van een volwaardig en toekomstgericht businessplan voor de onderneming en naarmate onze eigen schuld zelf onder 100 % zakt. De spoorwegen krijgen trouwens extra geld voor investeringen. Al deze maatregelen hebben één doel voor ogen: de dienstverlening verbeteren en onze overheidsbedrijven versterken op de geliberaliseerde Europese markt.

    Van deze begroting maakten we ook gebruik om onze lokale besturen meer zuurstof te geven. De netbeheerder Elia zal alle gemeenten een vergoeding betalen voor het gebruik van het territorium. Die vergoeding zal in overleg met de gewesten worden vastgesteld. We zijn ook volop bezig politiezone per politiezone te onderzoeken wat de resterende operationele en financiële problemen zijn van de politiehervorming. In de begroting werd daartoe ook een provisie aangelegd. Maar ik herhaal wat we al enkele malen hebben gezegd: we gaan betalen wat nodig is en legitiem, we gaan niet bijbetalen voor zij die in het verleden zelf onvoldoende inspanningen hebben geleverd. Naast de voorbereiding van fiscale stimuli voor de achtergebleven wijken van de grote steden en de voorziene daling van de administratieve kosten zullen we de gemeenten door de aanpassing van de voorheffing ook kunnen voorstellen sneller over hun inkomsten te beschikken. De burger van zijn kant zal daarbij het voordeel hebben later minder te moeten bijbetalen. Hoe dan ook zal geen enkele gemeente met al die maatregelen nog het federaal niveau kunnen inroepen om de eigen belastingen te verhogen

    Wij investeerden de voorbije jaren veel in politie en justitie. De eerste successen in de strijd tegen drugshandel, mensenhandel, car- en home-jacking zijn een feit. Maar we moeten keihard doorwerken. Flexibel zijn in onze hoofden en in onze methodes. Want criminaliteit verandert razendsnel. Er komt een actieplan voor meer landelijke gebieden. Want we willen vermijden dat de successen in de steden de criminelen doen uitwijken naar kleinere gemeenten. In de gerechtsgebouwen komt er een heuse werklastmeting. En we ruimen eindelijk de veelkoppige draak op van de dertien informaticastructuren binnen Justitie.

    De regering blijft zich ook volgend jaar resoluut engageren in de internationale gemeenschap. We richten een Kyoto-fonds op om tegemoet te komen aan de verplichtingen van het Klimaatverdrag. Dat fonds moet onder meer helpen bij de aankoop van emissierechten en het opzetten van een beleid van rationeel energieverbruik. Dat is de enige economisch verantwoorde manier om het broeikaseffect te bestrijden. De Belgische ontwikkelingshulp zal in 2003 verder stijgen, met 9 procent. Als we dit groeipad consequent aanhouden, - en we gaan dat trouwens wettelijk verankeren - bereiken we de 0,7 % van het bbp in 2010. En ik wil hier ook ons buitenlands beleid en de inzet van de minister van Buitenlandse Zaken vermelden. Geen inspanning wordt onverlet gelaten om een einde te helpen maken aan de meest verschrikkelijke oorlog van onze tijd, in Centraal- Afrika. En stilaan met succes.

    Mijnheer de voorzitter, collega's

    Dit is het laatste politiek jaar van deze legislatuur. Nooit hebben er zoveel regeringsontwerpen en -voorstellen klaar gelegen voor bespreking in het parlement. Ik vraag het parlement zo snel als mogelijk het wetsontwerp op de verkeersveiligheid goed te keuren. Maar ook de tweede pensioenpijler. Het consumentenkrediet. De uitstap uit kernenergie. De hervorming van de adoptie. De nieuwe wapenwet. De anti-discriminatiewet. De hervorming van de vennootschapsbelasting. De Kruispuntbank voor ondernemingen en het ondernemingsloket. De milieutaksen en de ecoboni. De verzekering tegen natuurrampen. De drugwet. De correctie aan de genocidewet. De openstelling van het huwelijk voor homo's en lesbiennes. De vermogensaangifte van politici. De bijzondere opsporingsmethoden die thans in de Senaat aanhangig zijn, samen met de veiligheid bij voetbalwedstrijden en vele andere ontwerpen inzake justitie. En dan heb ik het nog niet gehad over het ratificeren van de vele verdragen of over het nieuw ontwerp tot vereenvoudiging van de banenplannen.

    Want er zijn nog belangrijke ontwerpen op komst.
    De lijst is onvolledig. Het sociaal statuut van de kunstenaar, de onthaalmoeders, de medewerkende echtgenote van zelfstandigen, de responsabilisering van de artsen, de medische aansprakelijkheid, het kenniscentrum in de gezondheidszorgen, de administratieve afhandeling van verkeersinbreuken .

    Ik verwacht eveneens vanuit de meerderheid spoedig een initiatief inzake de wet op de wapenleveringen.

    Er is in ieder geval nog veel werk op de plank. Speculeren over vervroegde verkiezingen heeft dus geen zin. Er resten nog 23 parlementaire werkweken. Als de stemmachine ons een beetje wil helpen. We zullen moeten doorwerken, want we kunnen de verkiezingen ook niet uitstellen. Kamer en Senaat kunnen in de schijnwerper staan als wetgever. De oppositie krijgt hier een tribune voor haar alternatieven. Tenzij ze, zoals sommige advocaten, zou kiezen voor louter procedureslagen.

    Deze regering heeft in drie jaar tijd aandacht besteed aan veel mensen. Ik wil maar enkele voorbeelden geven. Vier jaar geleden hadden veel mensen nog een pensioen dat lager lag dan het leefloon. Dat is veranderd. Vier jaar geleden hadden we nooit de Congolezen van Goma kunnen helpen op het ogenblik dat hun huizen en scholen en hospitalen overspoeld werden door lava. Er was geen geld, geen instantie die zich daarmee bezighield. Dat is veranderd. Vier jaar geleden stond er geen rem op oplopende facturen van patiënten. Ook dat verandert.

    Problemen mogen ons echter niet verlammen. Problemen zijn uitdagingen. Problemen zullen er altijd zijn.

    Ook al zijn de tijden iets moeilijker, het gaat beter met België. Wij moeten hard blijven werken. We moeten blijven hervormen. Elke werknemer die vandaag zijn job verliest, blijft er één teveel. Elke misdadiger die ongestraft weggeraakt, blijft er één teveel. Elke zelfmoord van een jongere, elk kind gedood in het verkeer of elke slecht verzorgde zieke blijft onaanvaardbaar.

    We behoren tot de tien procent geprivilegieerden op deze wereld. Wij hebben het goed. Wij hebben alle kansen. Het is niet omdat er af en toe een onheilstijding op ons afkomt dat we in paniek moeten slaan. En het is niet omdat politici vaak misprezen worden, dat politici moeten afhaken. Het is dwaas te investeren in pessimisme.

    Laten we investeren in positief denken, in voluntarisme. En in het geloof dat ieder van ons iets kan doen aan een beter België.

  95. Pretty funny! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Thanks, I needed it...

  96. IN SOVIET RUSSIA... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    the weather controls you!!!

  97. Heads or Tails? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If you're of the scientific bent that says that humans are adversely impacting the ecosystem, then customizing the weather to mitigate the human impact to the global ecosystem is our responsibility.

    On the other hand, if you're of the other scientific bent which says that the planet's been around for a few billion years, the self-destructive monkeys that populate less than a third of its surface area can't do jack to it, then attempts to customize the weather will be generally be met with chaotic results (causing the companies working on such projects to go bankrupt prior to succeeding).

    Of course, if the coin lands on its side, then you sould watch the [awful] movie version of The Avengers and thereby learn that weather control can be used for great evil and terrorism and such. Alternately, it'll run on Windows causing an ecological disaster -- think "memory leak" from the clouds. (And all the terrorist religious zealots will praise their respective gods as said respective gods unleash rain for forty days and forty nights on the infidels who are on hold with Microsoft tech support.)

    Tee hee hee.

  98. No, I meant it for ALL countries by GuyMannDude · · Score: 3, Interesting

    "Population control is about trying to reduce the number of births."

    I find one thing aggravating about this. When people make this statement, they often neglect to mention that this applies only in countries where the birth rate is way out of control (e.g. Kenya which used to have avrg. 8 kids/woman). In other, developed countries (e.g. Europe, N. America) there is no harm in having 2-3 children/couple to maintain a sustainable population.

    I'm not sure where you get the idea that population control is only necessary for 3rd world countries. Many environmentalists are very concerned about overpopulation in developed countries. Why? Simply because a single person in a developed country uses way more natural resources than a single person in a 3rd world country. Overpopulation is a problem for EVERYONE, not just those unfortunate enough to live in China or India.

    Personally, I agree with you that allowing everyone 2-3 kids/couple to sustain the population is fine. What I'm less pleased about is couples that have more than this, regardless of what country they live in.

    GMD

  99. The next logical step... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah, great idea! Have about 30 slow-moving, unarmed planes orbit over some clouds in enemy territory, dropping hundreds of tons of chemicals over the course of several hours to make it rain the next day. Sure, you'd lose most of the planes to antiaircraft fire, but the rain will do even more damage to them.

    Wait, that gives me another idea. Maybe when bomb-making technology has advanced, we can make a bomb that can be dropped out of a high-flying plane! Legions of these planes could drop bombs in a coordinated fashion! Hmm, I wonder if this has been done before...

  100. Oh please by PatientZero · · Score: 2

    Eugenics is about as useful as ebonics, though I think the latter wins out.

    --
    Freedom to fear. Freedom from thought. Freedom to kill.
    I guess the War on Terror really is about freedom!
  101. phooey by ender's_shadow · · Score: 2

    I wonder how things would have worked out if Og & Zog decided that they didn't know enough about fire to even experiment with it, etc.

    Seriously, we should experiment with everything. Any knowledge ultimately leads to better things, and we will learn to control any technology out there. I'm actually optimistic as to global warming; cleaner technologies will save the day, IMO. We know, or will know, the problems new techs will introduce, and we'll adapt.

    Of course, if the H-bomb had really started a chain reaction across the globe I'd be singing a different tune.

    1. Re:phooey by geek · · Score: 2

      I wonder what would happen if you put a loaded gun to your head and pulled the trigger? Maybe you should experiement with it and try.

    2. Re:phooey by BrainInAJar · · Score: 1

      I wonder how things would have worked out if Og & Zog decided that they didn't know enough about fire to even experiment with it

      I don't know... Have you looked outside lately? I think we might've been better off if we hadn't bothered with all that fire stuff.

    3. Re:phooey by ender's_shadow · · Score: 2

      hmm, that doesn't really sound very Buddhist to me ...

  102. The Human-Engineered Chaos Effect by aerojad · · Score: 2, Insightful

    One of the largest difficulties in forecasting weather is something called the "chaos effect". It's the theory that one small change in one portion of the world can lead to drastic changes down the line in another portion of the world, such as the wind from the flapping of a butterfly's wings in Asia eventually adding just a bit more speed of wind to a super hurricane in the Atlantic Ocean. Hurricanes are huge heat-transfer engines. The only reason that hurricanes form is to transfer heat in the atmosphere from the tropical latitudes to the temperate and polar latitudes, thus helping keeping the world at stable temperatures. Severe hail storms in the American midwest are a way for dryer air to head east off the slopes of the Rockey mountains to the eastern United States, thus keeping the east from being as muggy as a tropical rainforest in the afternoon.

    Say you nudge a category five hurricane south of hitting Miami, Florida. Instead, it strikes near Havana, Cuba, causing considerable damage and devistation. In a time where altering the weather is obvious, the Cuban government is outraged, and begins to launch terror attacks in the southern United States due to the high death toll caused by the Americans changing the path of the hurricane instead of hitting Miami and causing billions of dollars of damage. This example shows one effect - if the weather could be controled by westen nations, smaller nations, or other western nations would retaliate with terrorism, or all out war, thus causing much more widespread damage than the hurricane would ever do.

    The hurricane, and others like it, are directed south, or out to sea in the Atlantic, away from the eastern seaboard of the United States. As a result, the western coastline of Europe, espically the British Isles, get lashed by severe windstorms in the fall, while the eastern United States freezes in much colder airmasses going unmoderated from Canada. A number of hurricanes passing over the same portion of water creates upwelling, thus changing a considerable amount of the sea surface temperature in the Atlantic, messing up the North Atlantic Oscillation, and throwing weather patterns in the eastern United States and Europe into chaos in the wintertime.

    Severe thunderstorms are prevented in the central United States, preventing dryer air from flowing east to offer relief to high heat indexes in the Eastern United States. With the lack of dry air, heatwaves intensify, and thousands die in large metro areas thanks to the already present heat-island effect. (300+ alone died in 1 weekend in a Chicago heatwave in the 90's)

    In the end, the worldwide weather patterns are thrown into chaos, which is thus controlled by more chaos, and so on and so forth, until the process gets out of control even of the weather controllers, and then the average person, the average you & I, get to suffer for it.

    This project, above all others, should be halted immeidately, for our sake.

    --

    SecondPageMedia - Wha
  103. Ok, dumb ass by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't you think we already are changing it?

  104. Weather control won't end world hunger by RodgerDodger · · Score: 1

    Famine is not really a product of a prolonged drought. It's the product of a disorganised society, typically one where there is no effective government, or the government is a dictatorship that doesn't give a damn about the population that supports it.

    An organised society doesn't succumb to anything but a really major drought. The problem in most places isn't growing the food, but rather one of distribution; warlords and criminal gangs steal the food instead of letting it go the market. This is the major reason that most international aid efforts fail.

    --
    "Software is too expensive to build cheaply"
  105. lemmings. by minitrue · · Score: 2

    technical progression in our wiring, you cannot stop us scientist types doing it.

    They say the same thing about lemmings which is why i don't find your words very reassuring.

    1. Re:lemmings. by Shawn+Baumgartner · · Score: 1

      When the lemmings start developing the innovations behind your air conditioners, motor vehicles, computers, or other methods that we humans use to make our lives more convenient, then I'll give a shit about what they have to do with anything. In the meantime, I need to bone up for analytical chem so that I can go work on things that might save human lives, take human lives, or just make someone's day a little bit cooler.

      I don't blame Americans for becoming such pussies over the past century, since its understandable given the incredible level of comfort that we have acheived, so nobody wants to dick with the status quo too much. Its just kind of embarrassing to see how much ass that we've kicked in 200 years getting where we are only to watch it go the shit from complacency and fear.

      And I can understand the reservations that you religious folks might have with what you might consider to be "playing god" although I have a hard time imagining a deity who would be so stupid as to create an animal, give it free will, and then place restrictions on it anyhow, but that's a whole other debate. Just always sounded like a coder who uses a random fuction generator to produce code and then gets pissed when it doesn't make him rich.

      Christ, we've had automobiles for a long damn time and thousands of people still fuck up using those each day to varying degrees of consequence. Let's just compile the data, develop the experiment, and then see if we can't kick a hurricanes ass. When shit happens, as it inevitably will even if we nail down weather control to a tee, then so be it. We'll moarn, learn, litigate in grand pansy fashion, and move on as the occasional fuck up just a part of life.

      I'm just glad that we still have people in this world like the original gents in the particle acceleration biz that had enough nut to step up and say, "Fuck it, let's go stir some shit up, even if we might end up bending some weird ass law of physics that we don't know about that wouldn't take kindly to bending." Else we might still be sitting around, stratching our asses, and playing "what-if" games instead of learning more and more about our universe.

  106. Then again... by hackwrench · · Score: 1

    Temperatures tend to drop at that time of the year anyways.

  107. Ye swe should by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This guy seams to be saying if we get the tech. to change the weather we should know how to pridect it. No If we can change the weather I would think we would have a very good understanding of it.

  108. Oooh! Oooh! Oooh! by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 2

    I can't believe no one has said this already:

    Everybody talks about the weather, but nobody does anything about it. - Mark Twain

  109. Rats, never mind by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 2

    I read the article too fast! Damn.

  110. It was done in Star Trek, so it's gotta be okay by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    DATA: I have some information regarding Amanda Rogers' parents.
    Picard reaches the Aft Science Station.
    DATA: Records indicate that they died in Topeka, Kansas. Their home was destroyed during a tornado.
    PICARD: A tornado? Why wasn't it dissipated by the Weather Modification Net?
    DATA: Unknown, sir. The bodies were found in the rubble after the storm had passed.
    PICARD(a beat as he ponders): See if you can find out any details. I'd like to know more about that storm.
    DATA: Yes, Captain.

    STNG: True Q

  111. The Raelians will be doing this in a few days. by WeeLad · · Score: 1
    A reliable independant source told me that the Raelians expect to have created a baby hurricane in the next few days. Aliens gave them the technology to control the weather so that they could water their "Clone-fields".

    --
    Seriously, Don't take anything I say seriously.
  112. Future Headline: Hurricane Deflected, Strikes Cuba by Sean+Clifford · · Score: 2
    Undoubtedly we'll see headlines like these. Despite many posts here, there's lots of money to be made in modding weather. Agricultural companies that want a certain amount of steady rainfall - more in this area, less in that. Or a region that neglects to pay its "weather tax" can experience the ramifications of unmodded weather as its affected by modded weather.

    It would also make a pretty, shiny new weapon in the War Against Terrorism/Drugs/Everything/Everyone. Wanna get rid of those pesky coca plants? Strangle rainfall to regions of Columbia and other growing areas. Wanna impose some "sanctions" with "teeth"? How about burying North Korean in snow?

  113. Money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    The main problem I see is that rich countries will be able to create the weather that they need, where as poor countries will get whatever we don't want. I guess this happens with everything else (ie food, medicine etc), so this will just add to their problems.

  114. You're gonna f@#k it up!@ by Thaelon · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm not against cloning, in fact I'm all for it, so I'm not some anti-progress/science guy.

    But ever heard the expression, "The flap of a butterfly's wing can affect the weather halfway around the world" (note that halfway is the farthest distance possible!)?

    If we mess with the weather on a big scale we risk F@#king up the whole goddamn planet! We don't have even remotely enough knowledge of the weather to do such a thing. We're messing with a CLOSED system here, if you make more water in one place that means there is less somewhere else!

    PLEASE don't mess with the weather!

    --

    Question everything

    1. Re:You're gonna f@#k it up!@ by Zone-MR · · Score: 1

      Yes, its called the chaos theory. It is possible minor variations in weather can cause gigantic reactions some time later, in some other place.

      However, does this unpredictibility neccessarilly mean all things we do will cause NEGATIVE effects? On the same logic, perhaps itll PREVENT a disaster in the future. On the same basis, according to the chaos theory, I should avoid moving at all, for the risk of causing a hurricane. But what if a movement I made just happened to COUNTERACT that butterfly flap and yo mommas fart?

      We cant predict what will happen in the future as a result of such small actions, itll take its own random cause anyway. But if we can learn how to avoid/deferr natural disasters, its a step in the right direction.

    2. Re:You're gonna f@#k it up!@ by Thaelon · · Score: 1

      Natural "disasters" are a part of nature. Only humans label them disasters. They're just another part of a good working system that we don't happen to like.

      --

      Question everything

  115. Can we change the wx? We HAVE! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It seems to me we already have! Just look around you...in the past 30 years, we have had such an increase in violent storms, droughts, tornadoes, you name it! What has happened? In nature...nothing, the only difference in what's going on on the planet is US! Like it or not, all you right wing idiots, especially those of you in Alberta who have been suffering through drought after drought yet still insts on keeping the likes of Ralph "Dinosaur Farts" Klein in power. Think about it! You think Kyoto's bad? Kyoto's just a start! Then there's all you Yank idiots, who insisted in giving power to oilman Baby Bush, who promptly turns around and axes Kyoto as far as the US is concerned. How stupid can you get?

  116. Not a real definition of what science is. by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 2

    Ahah, you spotted the point that I left out. In addition to being controlled, experiments have to be repeatable. I can repeat the experiment with the flies and cyanide gas (to a limit, they aren't exactly the same flies). But it's impossible to repeat an atmospheric experiment.

    People like to come up with bad definitions of what "science" is, and yours is no better than most I've seen. It has too many false negatives.

    Nobody has produced a black hole in a lab, but that doesn't mean that black holes cannot exist. "It has to be repeatable" effectively rules out geology, astronomy, paleontology, and meteorology as "sciences". In fact most of the astronomical and historical sciences fail to meet your narrow definition. Hypotheses from all of these fields can be validated by collecting whatever evidence is available, even if the data doesn't come from a repeatable tabletop experiment.

    1. Re:Not a real definition of what science is. by pclminion · · Score: 2
      There is a difference between observation and experimentation. If for example a cosmologist actually created a black hole, in a repeatable and controlled way, then that would be a scientific experiment. Cosmologists are largely observers, though.

      The only example of a meteorological "experiment" I can think of would be cloud seeding. But please, see this page at Colorado State: The Importance of Natural Variability.

      Again, the point is that atmospheric manipulations are not repeatable.

    2. Re:Not a real definition of what science is. by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 2

      There is a difference between observation and experimentation. If for example a cosmologist actually created a black hole, in a repeatable and controlled way, then that would be a scientific experiment. Cosmologists are largely observers, though.

      Are you implying that astronomy is somehow less than a science?

      The only example of a meteorological "experiment" I can think of would be cloud seeding. But please, see this page at Colorado State: The Importance of Natural Variability [colostate.edu].

      From that link:
      nonetheless the bottom line in examining potential human-caused effects is: are these effects large enough in magnitude to be extricated from the `noise' of the natural variability of the system?

      This is a well defined statistical problem, and there are methods used in all observational sciences to evaluate the probability of a null hypothesis. Rarely do your conclusions simply fall in your lap from the evidence without your having to do some work to separate them out from the noise and to sufficiently demonstrate that you are in fact not drawing your conclusions from the noise itself. This is done even in fields like medicine. I still fail to see your point.

    3. Re:Not a real definition of what science is. by pclminion · · Score: 2
      Are you implying that astronomy is somehow less than a science?

      I'm not implying that, I'm explicitly stating that astronomers do not perform experiments.

      From that link:
      nonetheless the bottom line in examining potential human-caused effects is: are these effects large enough in magnitude to be extricated from the `noise' of the natural variability of the system?

      You conveniently left out the immediately following sentence: "There are few, if any, cases in which we can answer this question affirmatively."

      From the same site, have at look at this: The Dangers of Overselling.

      This guy is not "out in left field," this is a fairly moderate opinion.

  117. Re:if the ability to change the weather can be use by geek · · Score: 2

    There is no proof global warming even exists, so proving whether this technology would counter it's effects is impossible.

  118. Re:Future Headline: Hurricane Deflected, Strikes C by geek · · Score: 2

    "Strangle rainfall to regions of Columbia and other growing areas."

    Yeah lets strangle the water supply to the rainforests of the world. I'd give us about 5 years before we went extinct.

  119. Re:if the ability to change the weather can be use by the_2nd_coming · · Score: 1

    huh...umm...I think you mean the greenhouse effect casueing global warming has not been prooven....global warming has been prooven. look at the Nasa data, look at the EPA, look at any national and international environmnetal organization that deals with the climate and they will have proof of global warming.

    do not confuse global warming (something that is natural for thge earth) with the greenhouse effect (a casue for global warming which indicates human co2 polution as the source)

    --



    I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
  120. or there'll be wars by BACbKA · · Score: 1

    as if we don't have enough water-related injustices/provocations/conflicts in the Middle East, here's another way to stir it up :(

    --

    VKh

  121. Remember... by andrewski · · Score: 1

    Remember how much trouble Garion got in with Belgarath for moving that one cloud away from Aunt Pol's farm? Yeah. I don't want an angry Belgarath showing up at MY house either.

  122. We already modify the weather... by HockeyPuck · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I was working a while ago with some folks from the national weather service, and they mentioned that cities grossly affect weather patterns. As they retain heat better than unpopulated areas (ie fields, natural grasslands).

    The specific instance that he pointed out was that he has witnessed storm systems in the southeast US, moving from the gulf of mexico towards Georgia, and have them go around Atlanta, b/c of all the heat it retains.

    -HockeyPuck

  123. Prediction == Control by msheppard · · Score: 2

    Once we can predict the weather with high accuracy, we will change it... ipso-facto. Once we can make the connection between a butterfly in India causing snow in New England, we will be able to put another butterfly in france to make more snow.

    Everyone's always talking about the weather, and no-one's ever doing anything about it.

    M@

    --
    Krispy Cream is people
  124. Proceed with caution by rnelsonee · · Score: 1
    There's one way of singling out humans as a species that I always liked - while all the other creatures on the earth have learned to adapt to their environment, man went ahead and learned to adapt his environment to fit his needs.

    And is that a bad thing? Using water as an example, man creates irrigation channels, dams, and even diverts entire rivers to allow for more people to have better lives.

    Granted, even though these can be big projects, the basics are pretty primitive, and we can now safely estimate what will happen if we put a dam of size x and such-and-such a location. Weather is very complex, and there's plenty of other issues such as the water-stealing conflicts mentioned in other posts (the Midwest states using up the rain that was meant for the East Coast, for example).

    But hey, let's try it out. Try small experiments in remote locations and go from there. And if we can't accuratly measure the effects (which we probably won't... who knows how much rainfall the East Coast would get if the experiments are performed vs. if they weren't performed?) then we can still keep what we've learned. And hell, if diverting a killer hailstorm away from D.C. means less rainfall for me in Annapolis for a day, I won't complain :) Nothing says we can't use this to not save lives at the expense of 5" less rainfall somewhere else...

  125. New Reason for Wars by rossz · · Score: 2

    Not that humans ever really needed an excuse to slaughter one another.

    Consider this situation, a country implements a program to increase rainfall. A side effect is less rain in a neighboring country, resulting in massive famine, or it could cause a low lying country to suffer heavy flooding. Either way, diplomatic channels go into action, one country demanding the other country to stop causing devastating weather side-effects, the other country refusing to listen because they are tired of not being able to feed their own people. Wars have been fought for far less signicant reasons.

    Now consider the actual war. Aiming a few tornados at the enemy capital might get their attention. We're in for some interesting times.

    Just as a gun can be used for good or bad, feeding your family or murdering your neighbor, weather control will also be used for both. When weather control is possible, it will happen. There is no question about that. Intelligent people will recognize this fact and try to find ways of reducing possibility of evil uses.

    --
    -- Will program for bandwidth
  126. An interesting bit to consider by dacarr · · Score: 2

    The Christian Science religion espouses that everything of this mortal coil is merely an illusion, and founded by a woman from Boston who declared herself free of cancer - and died of it shortly after this of cancer. One would be best advised to take this with a grain of salt.

    --
    This sig no verb.
  127. Altering weather? by monoqlith · · Score: 0

    I'm not sure, but I'm not yet comfortable with the idea of getting rid of/making more clouds. Imagine, for example, what this might do to those poor Care Bears! I propose, therefore, that we make Care Bear reservations, special "no fly zone/zero alteration" weather patterns where Care Bears are able to roam about freely, rainbow sliding on and off of whatever cumulus happens to be within the reserverations' boundaries. Let's be compassionate people. Care Bear Reservations, Now!

  128. What about the Care Bears? by monoqlith · · Score: 0

    I'm not sure, but I'm not yet comfortable with the idea of getting rid of/making more clouds. Imagine, for example, what this might do to those poor Care Bears! I propose, therefore, that we make Care Bear reservations, special "no fly zone/zero alteration" weather patterns where Care Bears are able to roam about freely, rainbow sliding on and off of whatever cumulus happens to be within the reserverations' boundaries. Let's be compassionate people. Care Bear Reservations, Now!

  129. Rich getting richer? by shams42 · · Score: 1

    It seems that only wealthy countries will be able to afford to use this technology if it ever becomes available. As someone already pointed out, there's only a finite amount of rain, etc. I imagine that poor countries that are already starvation-prone would suffer because of this technology. What, did you expect human nature to change over night?

    As an aside, since when did we start getting science news from the Christian Science Monitor?

  130. Of course we'll DO it... by Mulletproof · · Score: 2

    Common sense has never stopped us before. The only real question is how much damage we'll do before we are able to perfect the technique.

    --
    You need a FREE iPod Nano
  131. what a bunch of shit by Fict · · Score: 1

    i didn't read the article, nor did i read the /. blurb. in fact, i only read the title. the fact remains that this is a bunch of shit.

    die bitch die.

  132. We already do this.. by Gortbusters.org · · Score: 1

    and it is bad.

    On one level, we consciously do it... we cloud seed and force some areas to rain. What happens? Other areas become increasingly dry and barren for planting crops. Yay.

    On another level, we affect the weather passively with things like pollution. Ever been to Europe? The statues are said to start looking "melted" from the acid rain.

    Let's f' things up some more!

    --
    --------
    Free your mind.
  133. Bullshit by TheOnlyCoolTim · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Most third world countries pollute much worse than the United States. They are simply smaller, so their absolute CO2 admissions are smaller than the United States. Kyoto exempts many of these countries.

    Tim

    --
    Omnia vestra castrorum habetur nobis.
    1. Re:Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So? Many 3rd world countries simply don't have the money to make the necessary changes, the US does! Lets set a decent example for them or maybe better yet, make this a challenge for your industries so they can sell environmental-friendly items to the 3rd world countries instead of blatantly refusing to sign Kioto.

    2. Re:Bullshit by IXI · · Score: 1

      Even if you don't like it, the USA are the worlds biggest polluter. How can you expect so called 3rd world countries to do something against pollution if you, as the worlds biggest pollutor, don't. And for worse even boycott international efforts to do so?

      --
      He saw some dirty arabs and fired. Too bad it was just some friendly kurds, BBC reporters and his fellow cowboys.
    3. Re:Bullshit by TheOnlyCoolTim · · Score: 2

      "So? Many 3rd world countries simply don't have the money to make the necessary changes, the US does!"

      That's why we've done our part and made the necessary changes. Should we go farther and just shut down all our factories so more manufacturing will be outsourced to dirty third world facilities?

      "this a challenge for your industries so they can sell environmental-friendly items to the 3rd world countries"

      As soon as the third-world countries decide they'd like to spend money on environmentally sound factories instead of AK47s, eight children per family, or denying the existence of AIDS, our industries will be glad to sell them the equipment. That's part of how our evil capitalist system works.

      Tim

      --
      Omnia vestra castrorum habetur nobis.
    4. Re:Bullshit by TheOnlyCoolTim · · Score: 2

      Imagine a country with 500 million people and an enormous GDP that produces 40% of the CO2 emissions in the world. Now imagine three other countries with 10 million people each, that are poor as hell, but they each contribute 20% of the CO2 emissions. Which of these is more at fault in pollution?

      Those statistics are extreme, but they show my point. When the CO2 outputs are adjusted for the relative sizes and economies of countries, the United States comes out pretty well.

      Tim

      --
      Omnia vestra castrorum habetur nobis.
    5. Re:Bullshit by kyrre · · Score: 2

      Do you have evidence to back up this statement?

    6. Re:Bullshit by IXI · · Score: 1

      Imagine

      Is this word to be taken literally or are you really trying to say me that you can name those imaginary three countries?

      --
      He saw some dirty arabs and fired. Too bad it was just some friendly kurds, BBC reporters and his fellow cowboys.
    7. Re:Bullshit by TheOnlyCoolTim · · Score: 2

      Yes, "imagine", because it's a fabricated example to show the idea that I was talking about, which you seemed entirely incapable of understanding.

      Tim

      --
      Omnia vestra castrorum habetur nobis.
    8. Re:Bullshit by TheOnlyCoolTim · · Score: 2

      http://www.sourceoecd.org/data/cm/00000819/OECD_in _figures_2000.pdf

      Look to page 50. Observe how the U.S. CO2 per GDP is better than quite a few European countries. It doesn't even include third world countries, which would be even worse. To be really fair it would also need to be adjusted to "CO2 per industrial sector GDP."

      Further looking around, you find that the United States is just a bit below average on energy from renewable sources, and if you took out lucky countries like Canada and Norway (copious waterfalls) or Iceland (copious geothermal activity) we'd be at the average or above the average level.

      Tim

      --
      Omnia vestra castrorum habetur nobis.
    9. Re:Bullshit by IXI · · Score: 1

      because this fabricated example has nothing to do with reality.

      --
      He saw some dirty arabs and fired. Too bad it was just some friendly kurds, BBC reporters and his fellow cowboys.
    10. Re:Bullshit by IXI · · Score: 1

      Observe how the U.S. CO2 per GDP is better than quite a few European countries.

      You can always divide some number by another arbitrary chosen number to show anything you like.

      It isn't really astounding that the CO2/GDP is relatively low for the US when the US accounts for 1/3 of the worlds GDP while giving home for only 1/10 of the world's population.

      So you're seemingly trying to tell me that the US produces more value than emissions compared to other countries, but looking at the GDP gives you a very distorted picture. The question is if there is really something produced or is it just money that is hoarded.

      Anyway even if you look at the CO2/capita numbers the US is by far the worlds biggest polluter.

      --
      He saw some dirty arabs and fired. Too bad it was just some friendly kurds, BBC reporters and his fellow cowboys.
    11. Re:Bullshit by TheOnlyCoolTim · · Score: 2

      It is only a way to try and make you understand the concept of adjusting admissions for GDP and other factors.

      Tim

      --
      Omnia vestra castrorum habetur nobis.
    12. Re:Bullshit by IXI · · Score: 1

      Yes I understand it is a way to ease your conscience.

      --
      He saw some dirty arabs and fired. Too bad it was just some friendly kurds, BBC reporters and his fellow cowboys.
    13. Re:Bullshit by kyrre · · Score: 1

      Thank you. I am in one of the lucky coutries btw. :)

  134. Meteorological ethics by BierGuzzl · · Score: 2

    Next we'll be cloning snowflakes! What's the world coming to?

  135. Ask the millions of drowned Bangladeshis... by vudufixit · · Score: 4, Insightful


    If they think there's anything wrong with developing technology that could have mitigated killer cyclones and torrential floods.
    I think you'll hear a resounding silence.

  136. No one would miss the hurricanes by penguinland · · Score: 1

    I agree that there are legal and moral issues involved if we try to "steal somebody else's rain," but I don't think anyone would mind if we got rid of hurricanes. The destruction they cause is obvious, but I cannot think of anything useful that hurricanes bring. One Florida company, Dyn-O-Mat, is in the process of developing a product that can get rid of clouds, storms, and possibly even hurricanes (there is an article at Discover Magazine about it). The idea is simple, yet elegant: baby diapers are filled with stuff that absorbs several times its weight in liquid. Let's make it into a powder, put it into a storm/hurricane, and it will suck up all the rain in the storm. It then falls down into the ocean, and is neutralized by the saltwater. Poof! No more storm.
    Their goal is to prevent hurricanes, which, incredible as it may sound, seems likely in the next decade (assuming their product isn't toxic, etc). I'm surprised no one has mentioned this company yet, since they seem to be the most prominent weather-control project in the news lately. I think that this product, which is called Dyn-O-Storm, has much more potential than seeding clouds with dry ice (whose effectiveness, after decades of testing, is still inconclusive). The test of Dyn-O-Storm in the article says that it made a cloud completely disappear from radar within minutes. Admittedly, this is only a cloud, not even a storm. However, I think it is a very impressive step. They will try to test it on a hurricane sometime in the near future, weather permitting. :-)
    Does anyone know how the testing of Dyn-O-Storm is coming? It would be nice to hear when they actually try it on the hurricane.

    --
    "Flying is the art of throwing yourself at the ground and missing." - Douglas Adams
    1. Re:No one would miss the hurricanes by ross.w · · Score: 2

      It sounds like a nice theory, but Hurricanes and the like release a lot of energy. I remember reading (sorry don't nhave a reference) that storms are like a "safety valve" for the atmosphere - a means of releasing energy that would otherwise accumulate.

      Could we, by suppressing regular hurricanes, inadvertently cause a catastrophic super storm that would wipe out low lying pacific islands and level countries?

      As an analogy, Here in Sydney there used to be regular controlled burning of the surrounding bushland (which penetrates deeply into some suburbs) When the green lobby and others succesfully prevented controlled burning in urban bushland for a time, the result was the catastrophic 1994 fires.

      Now the controlled burning has resumed and, while bushfires still happen (like last December) they generally don't do as much damage as they otherwise might

      --
      If my call is important, why am I talking to a recording?
  137. Con$spiracy Theory by Black+Copter+Control · · Score: 2
    In a typically foolhardy fashion, the worlds leaders and scientists deem it more economical to take the risk (what a risk!) and attempt to change the weather, rather than make attempts towards cleaning up their act.

    It's the people who make the most money off of the activities that threaten our long-term climate that have the most to lose from changes. As an example, Canada's federal government is moving to ratify the Kyoto agreement (after a decade of shuffling our feet). The loudest complainers about this are the oil industry and the Premier of Alberta (Canada'a largest oil-producing province). The problem here is that they control a large amount of money, and a goodly number of jobs. When the medical officer of a regional health authority spoke in favour of Kyoto, he was fired. The uproar over this obvious case of censorship was enough to get him his job offered back to him, but by that time the message was out: Supporting Kyoto could put your career in jeopardy.

    It's clear that Oil Company and Alberta government research funding, is going to flow towards those scientists who are willing to critize Kyoto and away from those who might. The silence is deafening.

    There's a second reason for the favour of Intervention vs non-destruction: If the government is spending $10M to change the path of a hurricane, about 5% of that ($500K) is likely to end up as profit in the hands of the owners/shareholders of the company that provides the process. There's no obvious profit path for stopping the (over)use of petrolium products.

    Trust me, there are people (scientists and politicians) who would love to put forward alternative approaches, but they have a bitch of a time finding someone willing to put forward the resources needed to get their message out and their research done.

    --
    OS Software is like love: The best way to make it grow is to give it away.
  138. yes by Transcendent · · Score: 2

    ...but in moderation. Sure, we might have the technology soon to change any climate into anything we want, supress natural disasters, but doing so will effect the climate globaly in ways we do not have the ability to predict. While we diverted one hurricane, the result might cause severe drout in some areas, or even spawn hurricanes that are exponentially stronger... we just don't have the knowledge necessary to control our weather effectively...

    Yes, some added moisture here and there or weakening severe thunderstorms might be somewhat "safe", but when you mess with forces on a much greater scale, the new result could be much worse than the natural one...

    Just my thoughts...

  139. No by TheDarkRogue · · Score: 2

    We shouldn't change the weather untill we know what will be the total results of doing so.

    --
    (Score:0, Interesting)
  140. Effects On Other Locations by ATN · · Score: 0

    I think we should be very careful about controlling climate, one of my main concerns would be what effect it would have on the climates of other locations. I don't think you can change the climate in one area without having a significant effect in another. It's a global system that should be very well understood, before we start screwing around with it.

  141. This reminds me of another discussion... by stinky+wizzleteats · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ...about cloning. Based on what I've seen here, the answer is conditional.

    If controlling the weather will piss of religious people, then yes, we should do it. If not, then the usual prudence with regard to new science applies.

    1. Re:This reminds me of another discussion... by tswinzig · · Score: 2

      ...about cloning. Based on what I've seen here, the answer is conditional.

      If controlling the weather will piss of religious people, then yes, we should do it. If not, then the usual prudence with regard to new science applies.


      Well let's put it to the test then, shall we:

      Does this new science perform an action previously left up to God.

      Alright, when do we start!

      --

      "And like that ... he's gone."
    2. Re:This reminds me of another discussion... by stinky+wizzleteats · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Does this new science perform an action previously left up to God. Alright, when do we start!

      That's a good paraphrase of the position I described. Absurd, isn't it? It interests me to see scientists allow an irrational urge to disprove the existence of God to determine their actions, and indeed, to sweep aside the ethical concerns of their work. In order to allow them to return to a thoughtful analysis of their work, unfettered by the belief that they can and must destroy God, I would like to make the following statement.

      As a Christian, there is no scientific achievement that can reduce either my personal esteem for God, or my willingness to discuss and demonstrate that esteem. You have nothing to prove. Please proceed with your experiments accordingly.

  142. Africa by Tim12s · · Score: 1

    I recon they should build a pipeline to the middle of the sahara desert and pump sea water there... build a lake/whatnot and get some consistent rain in the desert. As long as this happens, maybe it would be possible to open up some farm land and feed a few million.

    The biggest problem I forsee is the knock-on effect with different weather systems. Irregular weather would throw out weather models and possibly disrupt whatever systems depend on at least 3 day weather forcasts.

    -Tim

  143. Lynmouth floods by Zog+The+Undeniable · · Score: 1

    My favourite conspiracy theory of all time is that the fatal Lynmouth floods of 1952 were caused by RAF cloud-seeding experiments. This is well worth a read.

    --
    When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
  144. TROLL ALERT! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Thanks for a most beautiful troll today!

    I almost took it for a seriously stupid post...

  145. Storms is the earths way of reparing itself by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As much of an inconvience to mankind major storms, huricants, earthquakes and what not are. They are the earths way at attempting to re-pair itself to the damage we have done to it.

    Untill we find ways to help repair what we have done, we shouldnt be fooling around with how its doing it currently.

  146. How are they going to control Chaos ? by master_p · · Score: 1

    The weather is the first example learned by a mathematician that studies the Chaos theory: a butterfly's wing flap in China may result in a thunderstorm in US.

    So, how are they gonna control it ? a local weather change may result in undesirable massive changes in nearby areas.

    1. Re:How are they going to control Chaos ? by Zone-MR · · Score: 1

      Yes, but who said anything about it neccessarily being negative effects? According to the chaos therory, and its randomness, every movement we make has the potential to escilate into huge meterological events. Its so random, weather the changes are big or small, that it would be unwise to be able to surpress droughts, yet refuse to do it because when someone happens to fart during the operation it might create a storm in another region...

  147. The expectations... by ChiefGeneralManager · · Score: 1
    If we do change the weather on a more regular basis, and with more accuracy, the expectation will be set that no-one should experience bad weather. Once we shift hail clouds away from a farm, that farmer can expect never to see hail again. When he does, he'll ask why did his farm got hail when it has been moved away in the past.

    The scope for litigation would be enormous -- weather would now be the responsibility of local government.

    Schemes to control weather in the UK have generally failed. I feel that the scale of experimatation needed to get it right will stop us from ever fine-tuning the weather and knowing the consequences.

  148. Should we? by Zone-MR · · Score: 1

    No, perhaps we should continue to let people die from lack of water, or weather-related natural disasters. After all, if we tried to save them we'd have swarms of religious leaders protesting that we are tampering with god/nature/their egos.

  149. Christian Science by turgid · · Score: 2

    Christian Science. That has always struck me as being a bit of an oxymoron.

  150. Weather by mqduck · · Score: 1

    I live in California. The Bay Area, specifically. Believe me, sirs and madams, you do NOT want to live without weather.

    Now please excuse me while I go hit my head against a wall.

    --
    Property is theft.
  151. Correct me if I'm wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    but this talk about equilibrium I really don't get. Everyone talks about the thing that if we alter something in one place an other place will for certain be hit harder by weatherpatterns we didn't foresee. Isn't weathercontrol just all about energy and dissapation (to outerspace) of unwanted energy? Then again, I could be oversimplyfying the problem!

    1. Re:Correct me if I'm wrong by jazir1979 · · Score: 1

      Firstly, I said this "may" happen. I never said "..another place will FOR CERTAIN be hit harder.." But you are right that I am certainly no expert (or even knowledgable) in the field. Does anyone else have something more concrete on this issue?

      --
      What's your GCNSEQNO?
  152. Chem Trails dude... Chem Trails. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Barium is being used for the HAARP project. Check it out. You are being poisoned from the sky!

    www.tetrahedron.org
    www.whatreallyhappened.com
    http://www.rense.com/general4/chmmm.htm
    http://w ww.rense.com/general21/dr.htm

  153. Cool! by NotTheNickIWanted · · Score: 1

    Once the technology is available, my snowmobile may have a chance to be used as something other than a lawn ornament!

    --

    unsigned int question = 0x2B | ~(0x2B)
  154. Utter Stupidity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Changing the weather is utter stupidity. One change will always cause another somewhere else,
    by law of causality and if everyone is trying to make it what they like, they are going to end up competing with each other and the resulting weather will be chaotic shit all around the world.

    Thanks a lot!

  155. not a good idea.. by Alarion · · Score: 1

    IMO

    This planet has a rather stable weather system and weather patterns. Granted, in the short term, things can be very chaotic and seem somewhat haphazard.

    However, if you zoom out to hundreds or thousands or even maybe millions of years you have this fine balance. Were we to go and cause some extra rain here, or less tornadoes there, sure it will help us in the very short term. Farmers might have better yields, lives might be saved from hurricanes and such, floods prevented.

    The problem is, nature has this weird way of balancing out, as I mentioned above. So after a couple years of drought, you might get a couple years of heavier rains. Mix this in with us eliminating droughts and then we basically have to micromanage (hello WC3) every single weather system on the planet to keep things in check.

    Along with that, we are inevitable going to totally fsck something up and hundreds if not thousands of species of plants and animals will be on the verge of extinction. We will have ruined habitats on a scale much much larger than what we are allready doing with deforestation, pollution, etc.

    Now, I am no meteorologist, nor do I even have a college degree. However, I think a lot of this is common sense and is not something we should tinker with until the day comes when we can forecast the weather precisely for hundreds of years in advance (which is unlikely to happen).

    just my 2 cents.

  156. This isn't new by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We've been altering the weather for quite some time now with Global Warming!

  157. these may have consequences... by john_uy · · Score: 1


    from a show i watched from discovery channel, the purpose of today's devastating weather phenomenon such as hurricane and typhoon is to distribute the heat around the earth. suppressing this may cause undesirable effects.

    but it would also be beneficial to avoid these calamities (especially in my tropical country) to avoid flooding and increase food output.

    just a thought...

    --
    Live your life each day as if it was your last.
  158. Of course we want to. The China Factor by briancnorton · · Score: 2

    It's really great to want to have a full understanding of the function of the atmosphere before modifying it, but there are others that are not so patient. I can absolutely promise that If the western world dosent take the lead in this or any other emerging powerful technology (genetics, nanotech, quatum computing, etc) there are plenty of others that will have no such qualms.

    --

    People who think they know everything really piss off those of us that actually do.

  159. Energy must be disappated by Rasvar · · Score: 2

    Weather modification is a dangerous game. Especially with hurricanes. Hurricanes allow the dissapation of stored heat in the ocean. If we artificially disrupt storms, the heat dissapation wil not be able to occur. This will cause other climate changes and will also lead to stronger and more dangerous storms down the road. Weather modification is not a zero sum science. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Imagine if in hurricane season, two possible storms are disrupted in the Gulf of Mexico. Both of these storms could be minor hurricanes with minor damagae at landfall. Instead, they are dissipated early. Heat that these storms would have dissapeted remain and intensify in the GOM. Now a system, comes along and rapidly strengthens in the area where the prior storms should have dissipated the heat. This storm grows to Cat4 and makes landfall with major damage. Storm three would not have happened if storms one and two were allowed to happen. Weather modification is not a good idea.

    1. Re:Energy must be disappated by Alizarin+Erythrosin · · Score: 2

      Exactlyt. On the local news station a year or so back I remember seeing a story about this guy who claims to have invented some sort of polymer that can actually "destroy" a thunderstorm. Well that's all and good but my first thought was "This is bad. What happens to all that storm energy?" Imagine the same thing happening to a hurricane, who's energy output in one hour is so great (something like 100 nuclear bombs, I forget the exact amount) that making one "fizzle out" could be disasterous!

      This storm grows to Cat4 and makes landfall with major damage.

      Yeah I live in Florida! I don't need anybody artifically increasing the amount of storms or even hurricanes that come around here... we get enough as it is

      --
      There are only 10 kinds of people in this world... those who understand binary and those who don't
    2. Re:Energy must be disappated by RetsamYthgimla · · Score: 1

      I read a story in an Asimov magazine about 8-10 years ago that addressed the energy issue. While somewhat farfetched at the time, I've seen other serious proposals in recent years.

      It basically consists of a huge tower or two built in the Gulf of Mexico (perhaps in Texas and Mississippi, or wherever). The towers suck in hot moist air at the bottom, and the air rises. As it rises, the air cools, and moisture condenses, releasing heat/engergy. The condensed warm water is extracted, and cold dry air exits the top of the towers, at about 25,000-30,000 feet. The guy ran some basic figures in his article, and found that a tower could change the air over several hundred square miles from 90 degrees at 90% humidity to 85 degrees at 85% humidity during the late summer months. This would reduce the energy available in front of incoming hurricanes, weakening them just before landfall. And because of the pressure and humidity gradients that would be created, it would actually help, not hinder energy dissipation from the warm Gulf waters.

      Of course, the costs of the project would be stupendous, and even factoring in the savings in hurricane damages, it would take decades to pay for itself.

  160. Ok by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah let's just screw up the planet even more than we already have! Yeah, great idea. I'm not surprised about hearing about weather manipulation in Texas...Bush's state...yeah he's environmentally friendly for sure...

  161. Science from Sci Fi? Morals of Dune! by louzerr · · Score: 1

    Odd, after seeing the later posting about 'Science from SciFi', this subject has me thinking about Frank Herbert's "Dune" series. After they transformed the complete desert planet into a green paradise, they had to blow it up and start from scratch - converting a green world into a desert! Lesson (IMHO): Altering the weather is a bad idea.

    I also have to think of that concept of a butterfly's wings in China effecting the weather in the US. There's just too many things we don't understand. Science all too often tends to examine things in lab conditions - in a closed environment. But closed environments do not happen in nature. By increasing rainfall in Kansas, do we cause a drought in Austrailia? I don't care how many people & computers you have analyzing weather patterns, you cannot truely predict cause and effect on a global scale (hey, isn't that in Dune, too?).

    --
    "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away" -- "Step Right Up", Tom Waits
  162. I agree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am a stron advocate of pulling out in time.

  163. Some thoughts about Global Warming blah blah by Punk+Walrus · · Score: 1
    One of the things that people go on about is "Save the Earth." Well, the Earth is fine, and will always be so until the sun swells up some 5 billion years down the road. What I think we mean to say is "Keep the global status quo for our lifesytle," meaning that we don't want the Earth to be an uncomfortable place for us humans, living en masse, on the crusty surface above the water.

    I saw an article about how the ice ages were studied. Thanks to ice core drilling, we know the general weather back through 250,000 years. Because of a bug tree ring database, we have a more accurate reading for local areas back some 16,000 years (with some gaps). One thing they noticed is that just before a major ice age, the global temperature spikes sharply just before it plummets downwards and stays there. Now, this could be a lot of things, but some are starting to wonder if the Earth has some sort of Gaia effect, a self-regulating thermostat, via atmosphere and weather.

    A "simplified until possibly incorrect" example would be when the earth heats up, the ice caps melt, and more heat is raidated out into space via water reflection, making the Earth cooler, making ice caps, which then reflect more heat, but trap a lot of water, exposing more land, which absorbs heat, and so we go around again. I am sure there are a lot of other debates that would shatter my example as "uneducated to the point of nausea," but I wanted to give everyone an idea what I mean by "self-regulating."

    So back to us. Well, we are a hardy bunch, and we have our own self-regulation. First, we chop down trees and burn them, releasing heat-trapping gasses. We also plant crops, which reduce diversity, and increase the chance of global-sized plagues on our food sources. The ozone layer might also be thinning, and pollution is choking us in the growing urban sprawl. So... after a while, we go to far. We chop down one too many trees, or one too many cars puffs out the critical puff of CO2. Crops die. People die. Civilization collpases. The whole societal infrastructure is reduced to pre-Roman levels. Well, that means less people to pollute, chop down trees, and so on. Nature heals itself, the empty niches we made by wiping out 90% of the animals are filled by animals who specialize, the Earth goes on, or as Vonnegut said, "And so it goes..." Civilization now will be a legend (like Atlantis), supported only by oily ruins, mined for their scrap until they, too, are gone. We'll probably have two or three of those cycles before we finally learn.

    "Tell my grandfather, of this oracle you used to conlsut called Slashdot? It is true angry Gods banished you, sending trolls to attack the commons with a plague called Spam? Or is Lord Cowboy Neal the IV drunk on fermented cabbage again?"

    _________________________________________________
    "They said it couldn't be done. So we stopped. It was cheaper that way." - Punk Walrus

  164. You believe those quacks? by coinreturn · · Score: 1

    If you click the link you listed and explore the idiotic accusations of mass population mind control you quickly discover just what quacks these people are. They believe that the government can modify the moods of crowds of people with some electromagnetic waves in Alaska.

    People are complex bowls of chemicals! Any single simple "treatment" like this wouldn't do shit to mood unless it just gave everybody a gigantic headache, in which case the only mood-altering they could do was to piss everybody off!

    If they could alter moods so easily, why is there ever civil unrest like marches, riots, etc.?

  165. The only thing I know for sure is ... by changhai · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Someone will do it when it becomes technologically possible, no matter how many people say we shouldn't. Clone is a good example.

  166. Wake up!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Obviously you don't read up on subjects that you fondly discuss!!! Theories relating to the earth's liquid centre and every reason behind magnetism's existence have ALREADY been tested!! If you would have even the smallest look you will find that there is a law of magnetism, and it's not even that hard to explain! I understand it.