Gibson to Embed Guitars with Ethernet

caseyuw writes "Gibson is planning to roll out their Magic this year with the delivery of guitars using Cat 5 instead of analog cables to connect instruments and amplifiers. The debate over the quality of digital vs analog signal processing is not new, but using a 'Magic' Les Paul would force you entirely into the digital domain." We mentioned this last year, but the above article has much more information.

Comments

Uhhhh

[l810c]

Let's DOS the basist.

Re:Uhhhh

[tha_mink]

My drums are running L.O.A.F...

Re:Uhhhh

[Bullet-Dodger]

Dude, now we actually can HACK THE GIBSON!

Re:Uhhhh

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, you could DOS the bass, but would it result in Great Justice?

Re:Uhhhh

[octaene]

I wonder how long until the first guitar virus strikes?

"Dude, I was gonna shred at this concert, but my guitar got the W32.Klez.vbs and so we're hosed..."

Re:Uhhhh

[Anonymous Coward]

Damn that's fuckin funny :-)

(posting anonymously to protect my precious karma)

Re:Uhhhh

[Salo2112]

This one's special: it goes to 101Mbs....

- Nigel Tufnell

Wireless?

[dpete4552]

Would it then be possible to send the info wirelessly (sp?) to the amp? Seems kind of cool.

Re:Wireless?

[l810c]

You may run outta bandwidth at the current wireless speeds. The article talks about getting to Gigabit by March.

Re:Wireless?

[1ridium]

Just as long as no one in the audience is sitting there with a laptop and a Pringles can.

Re:Wireless?

[v2]

Yeah they could. But they do that already, with analog. You know, they work kinda like walkie-talkies, those things you talk into and the sound comes from the second one.

Re:Wireless?

[Chainsaw]

Let's see... If we transfer standard CD quality, you would get (16*44100)/1024 == 689 kbit data per second. Stepping up to 24*96000, 2250 kbit is used. The maximum limit for 802.11g is about 5400 kbit.

As a guitarist, that seems good enough.

Re:Wireless?

[chrome]

The latency is too high. I usually get around 11ms to my wireless 11mbit network at home. Had the same on my apple airport (actually, a bit slower, 15ms).

Might be that 54mbit wireless has good latency though.

One thing that annows me about the main post is the statement that Magic will 'force' people into digital. This is nonsense of course.

From the article: Those initial Magic guitars will also have traditional analog pickups. "It will essentially be two guitars in one: You don't have to go digital if you don't want to," said Arora.

Re:Wireless?

[Monkelectric]

For music applications 3-5 ms latency is considered "acceptable" but even that can sound kind of crummy in some situations.

Re:Wireless?

[Anonymous Coward]

Read the article - they're talking about 32 channels, 32-bit each at up to 192 kHz sample rate, synchronous operation (not using the term, but it comes down to it) and 250 usec latency.

You'll never get that across today's wireless LAN technology.

Re:Wireless?

[chief-dot]

The article outlines that the current revision of the standard is based on 10/100 Mbps Ethernet (IEEE 802.3 and 802.3u). If a 'Magic' Network can operate at 10Mbps then I'd suggest that the bandwidth of an IEEE 802.11b network would be acceptable...just.

Of course bandwidth isn't the only factor to consider.

Re:Wireless?

[jptechnical]

Sounds great, we can all bring our wifi pda's to the concerts and add some effects of our own.

Re:Wireless?

[tcr]

Uh, 3-5ms latency is generally considered to be "not noticable"... :-)

That's what you might get with modern cards and, say, ASIO drivers/Cubase VST.

Re:Wireless?

[Bohnanza]

Would it then be possible to send the info wirelessly (sp?) to the amp? Seems kind of cool.

Yes, I would love to connect my digital wireless ethernet guitar to my tube amp.

Re:Wireless?

[avandesande]

I read an interview with Billy Cox (Hendrix's Bassist) where he made a 100' cable so that Jimi could play in the crowd. He couldn't use it because there was a 1ms delay in the signal. Networking is much slower than that!

Re:Wireless?

[hackstraw]

Any professional guitarist would want better than CD quality, especially in the 16 bit field (dynamic range). Especially since the signal will typically go through a number of other processors. Kinda like doing gfx work on a jpeg, it may be OK but the more you mess with the origal, the quality will only get worse with each tool it passes through.

But IANAM.

Re:Wireless?

[dkessner]

1ms delay in a 100 ft cable? Not likely. Signals travel in a cable at about 1/2 the speed of light or about 6 inches per nanosecond. So a 100 ft cable will have a propagation delay of about 200 nanoseconds. That's a far cry from 1 ms (a.k.a. 1,000,000 nanoseconds).

On the other hand, sound travels through air at about 1 foot per millisecond (roughly). So that 100 ft cable would put Jimi 100 ms away from the monitor speakers. At 4/4 time and 120 beats per minute that is almost a quarternote of latency. Clearly no riff-master would ever want to be off by that much.

Likewise, you can think of latency as "adding distance between you and the speaker". For example, 1 ms of added latency is like adding another foot between you and the speaker. For most applications 5 ms isn't going to be noticeable, but the signal chain for a concert or studio can be long. And all those 5 ms delays really add up.

Gibson Magic is really just a CobraNet wannabe (www.peakaudio.com). CobraNet has been around longer, is more of an established standard, and has more sophisticated network management and routing than Magic. In contrast to CobraNet, Magic is a latecommer that was developed by people who should stick with guitars rather than 100Base-T. More to the point, CobraNet is supported by more than 30 different companies while Magic has maybe one supporter if you don't count Gibson itself.

And isn't this just a repeat post? It seems that Gibson Magic pops up here every so often but that they don't have any real new news...

Re:Wireless?

[avandesande]

How about inductance and capacitance? Whatever it was there was an unacceptable amount of slop.

Re:Wireless?

[dkessner]

Inductance and capacitance will effect the propagation down the cable, but not in the magnatudes that we're talking about. It might change that 200 ns propagation delay by maybe +/- 100 ns but not make it go to 1 us or even 1 ms. This delay is miniscule compared to the delay that you'd get from moving 100 feet away from the speaker (and the rest of the band).

Re:Wireless?

[Anonymous Coward]

I just watched the "What is MaGIC?" video on gibsonmagic.com, the video stresses heavily that it does indeed support wireless, and even mention having entire wireless studios and the like..

Here's the link to the video if you want a bit more detail:
http://www.gibsonmagic.com/video/magichi. wmv

Re:Wireless?

[avandesande]

Agreed. You can't always take the words of aging rockers at 100%.

Re:Wireless?

[DrMorpheus]

GAHHHHH!!!!! This has been done for over twenty years morons!!! But it's plain ol' FM analog transmission (with multiple failover channels) rather than digital. And there wouldn't be much advantage to wireless digital even if they could fix latency problems. The analog system works just fine.

Re:Wireless?

[edhall]

One cure for the 100 ft cable is to use a second 100 ft cable -- to a pair of headphones. I'm surprised no one thought of that, or perhaps Jimi didn't like the idea of wearing cans [jargon for headphones] in concert.

-Ed

I FAIL IT

[Anonymous Coward]

Imagine

[TaoTeCheese]

Imagine the harmony you'd get from a Beowulf cluster or those!

Ethernet, not Firewire?

[Thenomain]

Why not use Firewire, which is more common for A/V devices?

Re:Ethernet, not Firewire?

[Moofie]

Isn't the spec for FireWire like 15 feet? I'm sure I've seen longer instrument cables than that. Sure, I'm sure you could use a signal booster, but that'd be a) expensive and b) noisy.

Just guessing. : )

Re:Ethernet, not Firewire?

[jerkychew]

Firewire currently tops out at 800Mb/second, and is a relatively new techology. Cat5e can handle 1 GB/sec, and has been around in its current incarnation for quite a few years.

Also, the max length of a FireWire cable is 4.5 meters , while Ethernet can do 100 meters before needing a repeater.

Not sure how much bandwidth a gee-tar takes up, but I'd bet that cable length was the deciding factor in this design.

Re:Ethernet, not Firewire?

[ikewillis]

"Firewire currently tops out at 800Mb/second, and is a relatively new techology. Cat5e can handle 1 GB/sec, and has been around in its current incarnation for quite a few years."

Why is data transfer rate even an issue? Let's assume they use a 24-bit DSP with a 192kHz sampling rate (which is probably far superior to the DSP they'll be using in these guitars). Doing the math, that's:

192000 * 24 = 4608000 bits/sec

10bT would be suitable for those purposes.

"Also, the max length of a FireWire cable is 4.5 meters [firewiredirect.com], while Ethernet can do 100 meters [homenethelp.com]before needing a repeater."

Now this is a good point. However, why not use USB? USB has a maximum cable length of 80 feet. Furthermore, remember that the DSP and pickups on the guitar are going to need power, most likely using Power over Ethernet. If this is the case, the length restriction on Ethernet becomes more like 100 feet (depending on how much power is injected).

Furthermore, this will probably require nonstandard Ethernet frames (unless they intend to embed a TCP/IP stack into the guitar) thus making any use of this guitar with computers (which would probably be seen as one of the benefits of using Ethernet) only possible through custom software. Furthermore, Power over Ethernet is a nonstandard technology, whereas USB provides bus power to devices standard.

If the guitar were USB, you could plug it into any computer and it would work out of the box as a USB audio input source.

Given these considerations, I think it's ludicrous for them to use Ethernet over USB.

Re:Ethernet, not Firewire?

[Jeremy Erwin]

Nope.
The parent post linked to a site that sells IEEE1394a cables.
IEEE1394b (or Firewire 2) uses 9 pin (rather than six pin) cables (in the Apple implementation).

1394b also defines a new high speed mode called S1600, with a data rate of 1572.9 Mbit/s. The signal can be carried by copper wire, glass fibre, or plastic fibre. The maximum cable length is now 100m, rather than 4.5m.

This is not to say that Apple computers can transmit at S1600 over 100m distances, but this article indicates that 1394b does not always imply 800 Mb/s over 4.5 m of copper.

Re:Ethernet, not Firewire?

[Anonymous Coward]

That is retarted.... I dont care what you are doing, you do not need 1gb a second to record audio from a fricking guitar... I can get more than anyone would want in 300 Kpbs

cripes you engineering weenies that have zero knowlege about audio.

Re:Ethernet, not Firewire?

[jeddak]

So the networked toaster didn't work out....hey - let's do a guitar!!!!

Great. A 100 meter guitar cable. So much more useful than a 4 meter cable. Me, somehow I get by with a 2 meter cable. God. How do I do it?

Firewire is at least supported by existing audio devices that a guitarist is likely to want to connect to. Hell, even USB would be good enough for a guitar signal. You don't need 1Gb of bandwidth.

If I buy one of these retarded Gibson Magic guitars today, I can plug it into a Cisco router. Yay.

Actually, I strongly advise everyone who has the money to buy one of these guitars, keep it wrapped up and never, ever play it. They're gonna be collector's items twenty years from now.

Wonder if it'll run Java...

Re:Ethernet, not Firewire?

[hackstraw]

Cat6 is rated for gigabit, although cat5e would probably be suffice for gigabit, as it was the interim standard until they decided on cat6.

1st p0st

[lsd4all]

As a guitar player, this sounds like a bad idea. whenever you create more connections/contacters which rely on a fixed signal, your fudge factor increases. I have broken so many guitar cords in my life by just stepping on them and/or falling off the stage.

plus- how are roadies going to figure out the wiring sequence? Pin 1 >> Pin 3 Pin 2 >> Pin 6 Pin 3 >> Pin 1 Pin 6 >> Pin 2

Re:1st p0st

[l810c]

plus- how are roadies going to figure out the wiring sequence? Pin 1 >> Pin 3 Pin 2 >> Pin 6 Pin 3 >> Pin 1 Pin 6 >> Pin 2

Easy, quit smokin pot and it's pretty simple.

Re:1st p0st

[kdgibson]

With what they're talking about, sounds like you'd only have one cable going from guitar to amp. Wouldn't need your effects pedals anymore, it'd either be in the guitar or amp digitally. If that's the case, your fudge factor is minimal.

Re:1st p0st

[lsd4all]

i guess i should have included my love for the analog sound in my original post.

turn offs : digitally processed effects and rude people

turn ons : valve amplifiers and walks on the beach

Re:1st p0st

[juicy_pants]

While this might not be the best idea for live shows, think about the implications that this could have for recording studios, esp. electronic music.

If digitizing of the analogue signal can be perfected at the instument end of equipment, the possibilities for signal loss/distortion are greatly diminished. A digital signal from the guitar can be sent directly from the guitar to the recording equipment.

This allows for a more pure signal to be recieved, and recorded. While there are people who object to digitizing music (give me a 'pure' analogue signal!), it is hard to deny the reality that ALL recorded music (on CDs) is digitized. By digitizing earlier on in the process, Gibson is mearly allowing for the listener to hear a sound that was sampled from a more pure origonal than current methods allow.

I don't really see how someone can object to studio use of technology like this, and as another poster pointed out, there are plenty of uses for such tech in things like the addition of live effects during concerts, etc..

And maybe, just maybe this will help to get us away from the current bland techno beats, as this *does* give better access to instuments to the button pushers.

Re:1st p0st

[Anonymous Coward]

Easy, quit smokin pot and it's pretty simple.

So I repeat the question... how are roading going to figure out the wiring sequence? :-P

Re:1st p0st

[Moofie]

They address this explicitly in the article. The engineers are comfortable with the fact that not everybody is going to like this. Nobody's going to take away your vacuum tubes. : )

Seriously, I think that anybody who wants to use new technology to make new sounds is cool in my book. Music didn't start, nor shall it stop, with the electric guitar.

Re:1st p0st

[godIsaDJ]

Yeah, and guitar cables are nice and flexible! My ethernet cables on the other hand are sooo rigid, I would not make the switch just for that, besides what happens if you got a 'kind of broken' cable??

Re:1st p0st

[buswolley]

this would be fine if the a/d converters were of very high quality. If they were of very high quality then you might be right. But high quality a/d converters can cost 10,000 per channel. I don't see this going into a poor man's guitar.

plus if you have a digital signal coming out of your guitar the you'd be forced to use a digital mixing board. Analog mixing boards are still king in sound quality.

in a digital mixing board, every time you adjust the treble for example, you are really adjusting the word length and redithering. bad bad bad

I proably don't know shit.

Re:1st p0st

[D iz a n k Meister]

I don't think that the a/d converters relative quality when compared to "the state of the art" is going to matter much. This type of guitar will have to be plugged into a matching amp, or whatever, to make any noise. That thing will have a modeler on the ouput to create the analog signal to the speakers.(I don't really understand how this will work for speakers, unless they were already powered like EONs or something. 1000's of watts through ethernet??) The modeler will have to compensate for the original quality of the a/d converters to create "good" tone. It's like having a POD built into the guitar/amp.

And if you're having trouble with those digital mixing consoles, just plop a mic infront of the amp instead.

But I think the parent poster was talking about *new* possibilities, not recreating old-ass tones that were played much better by someone else a long time ago. You'll be able to put seperate effects on each string, etc. Put enough effects on it and that initial a/d conversion won't matter at all. Just using strings instead of keys.

Re:1st p0st

[beowulfcluster]

Since when is a Gibson a poor man's guitar? ;)

Re:1st p0st

[kdgibson]

I apologize if my post had a rude tone to it, it was not intended, I guess it was a side effect of being concise. Notice my use of tone and effect with applicable subject matter, as I think both are affected by digital effects, which I think suck too. Perhaps this new technology can live a symbiotic life with ol' school technology and totally kick ass.

Re:1st p0st

[tcr]

With what they're talking about, sounds like you'd only have one cable going from guitar to amp. Wouldn't need your effects pedals anymore, it'd either be in the guitar or amp digitally. If that's the case, your fudge factor is minimal.


Also...
Given the popularity of analogue/tube effect plugins available for sequencers, I wouldn't be surprised if Gibson also release a "guitar lead simulator" plugin with the software, to keep everyone happy...
:-)

Re:1st p0st

[beowulfcluster]

With what they're talking about, sounds like you'd only have one cable going from guitar to amp. Wouldn't need your effects pedals anymore, it'd either be in the guitar or amp digitally. If that's the case, your fudge factor is minimal.

I think the day when the majority of guitar players would be ok with someone telling them they don't need their effects pedals anymore because they're in the guitar is pretty far away. That would be like 'not needing' to put together computers from different components we like and know work well, but instead all use Dell machines with Windows XP (even if some might say xp isn't minimal fudge factor).

There already are 'all in one' digital solutions for those who want that, and amps with digital amp models and effects in one amp. But different effects pedals do different things, different pedals that provide the same effects sound different. Putting them together in a setup that works well is half the fun (or pain, depending on who you ask). I have both a rackmount multieffects unit and a bunch of stomp pedals. Which I use (often both together) depends on the situation. The rack unit is more convenient, but a board with effects pedals is a lot cooler (much like a homebuilt computer is cooler than a Dell).

Re:1st p0st

[kdgibson]

I have an 'all in one' unit', and a couple stomp boxes too, and I agree that the stomp boxes are a lot better, and cooler too. Perhaps Gibson will realize this and have some kind of feature where you could hook up to your computer, download some effects, tweak them to how you like, and patch them to your guitar. Wouldn't it be cool to download an effects package that your favorite artist used on the last album?

Re:1st p0st

[LudditeMind]

While this might not be the best idea for live shows Why not? Seems to me that being able to have seperate effects on different strings would allow some artists to re-create what is on their album using less people (which some musicians can't afford to hire). The creative mind out there will find plenty of applications, think of having distortion on the bottom three strings for a chunky rythm using to clean-tone for the solos on the top three strings. And that would be a simple use of this.. it just depends on the quality of the digital effects.

CAT5?

[forgoil]

If we are going digital, wouldn't it make far more sense with built in wireless lan instead? The argument for those pesky cables has been the analog sound, I'd think most people would be hardpressed to find problems with wireless vs Cat5 these days.

Well, there will surely be those who claim that since it IS a cable, it must be better. But with the same information being carried over, I hardly think that they can make much of a case, other than being pesky.

Re:CAT5?

[seanw]

I don't have a definitive answer, but I would guess that latency would be a problem. in a live or recording situation, you really can't have your guitar solo lagging behind the rhythm section. latency has to be very small, whereas wifi introdcues larger and more unpredictable degrees of delay.

Re:CAT5?

[grahams]

Think Spinal Tap... Remember the scene at the military base? Obviously radio interference would manifest itself differently with MAGIC, but it is still a concern, and one that roadies and performers probably don't want to have to worry about.. On top of that, MAGIC supports up to Gigabit Ethernet, bandwidth that current wireless networking can't really approach..

Re:CAT5?

[lennart78]

First of all: Wireless isn't getting nowhere near the transmission speeds you achieve with a cable.
If you want fast and realtime communication, you also get 2 extra conversion steps while using wireless transmission. Extra conversion is extra delay.

And reliability is a factor too. Wireless transceivers for analog audio signals have a bad reputation for reliability and audio qualitiy, and you should avoid them until you have the means to invest the monetary value of, say a medium sized car, into it.

No guitarist is going to ever touch that equipment if it fails him/her onstage, ever...

Re:CAT5?

[Anonymous Coward]

quote:
in a live or recording situation, you really can't have your guitar solo lagging behind the rhythm section
End quote

You obviously haven't been in a rhythm section before. I think going wifi would finally bring the guitarists back to playing on the beat.

Re:CAT5?

[djupedal]

'ever' and 'not touch' are pretty strong statements...they get in the way of your weak point.

Also, you're saying your cable TV can do things your (wireless) satellite media connection can't? Bluetooth, maybe...but since 'wireless' is a big topic, with lots of methods, you just might be wrong.

I seriously doubt anyone would ever want to defend such a clearly outragous claim :)

Re:CAT5?

[NynexNinja]

Wireless can be denial-of-serviced much easier than CAT5 can. It would really suck if your playing at a concert and someone in the room overloads your own wireless bandwidth to knock your equipment off the air.

Re:CAT5?

[Anonymous Coward]

And you're obviously gay.

Re:CAT5?

[The-Pheon]

There are two main problems:

First there is the power supply question. You have to power that wireless card and you are trying to eliminate the cable.

Second, gigabit ethernet is a lot faster than today's wireless ethernet.

The main point is that using digital as opposed to analog will allow control of amps and effects from the guitar, and give each instrument a unique id for the guy in the mixing booth.

Easier interaction, not cable size.

Re:CAT5?

[SignoffTheSourcerer]

Yeah, mobility, CAT5 is stiff as shit, atleast STP. I know as i had stp for mouse cable once (in lack of better options at the moment). Wireless is the way to go if you are going digital.

Re:CAT5?

[DarkMan]

From the article:

Magic conforms to the 802.3af spec for providing power over Ethernet.

Utilitiding power-over-ethernet means that you no longer have to worry about dub batteries. That's a huge saving, and the reason that phantom power (essentially a power-over-mic-cable technology) exists in all mixing desks.

With wireless, you have to worry about power too. For a large stage show, you assign a tech to deal with that, and kick his ass if you run out of juice.

For people who arn't the Rolling Stones, U2 etc, power and signal in one cable is a good thing.

Additionally, cable gives a dependable signal. Note that this is not TCP/IP over ethernet, but a completly different protocol. What happens when you lose bandwith in your wireless connect? You'd get a click in the sound. That's speaker-wreckingly-ears-bleedingly unacceptable. 802.11 doesn't have badnwidth guarentes, whiles cable does (de facto, if not de jure - I don't know the ethernet spec well enough).

Re:CAT5?

[Alien Being]

Yeah, but this one would go to 802.eleven.

Re:CAT5?

[mikeage]

No no no no noe! Don't _ever_ put 802.11b in a musical instrument... that would allow anyone with special listening equipment (a "sniffer", aka, "ears") to listen in ("intercept", aka, "hear") all of the data ("bits", aka "sound") being produced from within a certain distance ("range", aka, "earshot"). Just think what might happen if someone knows what kind of data (let's call it... say... music) your guitar is outputting.

P.S. This is a joke. I know there are good reasons to allow people to hear analog, but not record digital.

Re:CAT5?

[Anonymous Coward]

God, I wish I still had my mod points! Mod parent up!

If you get it, that is...

Re:CAT5?

[SecretAsianMan]

No guitarist is going to ever touch that equipment if it fails him/her onstage, ever...

I guess that's why the vacuum tubes are so popular, right?

Re:CAT5?

[necromaedian]

wtf is de jure? du jour? i'm confused...but also drunk

Re:CAT5?

[RadioTV]

One problem that I haven't seen anyone mention is that 802.11b is shared bandwidth.

Re:CAT5?

[Anonymous Coward]

It means (more or less) "to be decided". Like, "the jury's still out".

Re:CAT5?

[RFC959]

No, it does not. It means, roughly, "in law." See http://dictionary.law.com/definition2.asp?selected =472&bold=%7C%7C%7C%7C

Re:CAT5?

[forgoil]

Due to the pretty damn good points about wireless lan actually sucking in some aspects (lag is not fun etc) I don't think that is a good idea either.

But it would be a good idea to have wireless though. There are wireless transmitters for guitars today after all. And maybe one should double up having both digital and analog at the same time.

I wonder if they sample the sound btw, and if they do, at what quality. I guess it would simplify the effects racks if nothing else, and get the A/D converters closer to the source. And who could argue with 96khz 48-bit mono in ;)

Re:Can you imagine...

[Sarcasm_Orgasm]

Yep, I'd call it Slipknot.

How about BlueTooth?

[meitsjustme]

its a cool badge to put on a guitar anyways, oh well, maybe not for gibson guitars.

OH YEAH!

[The_Rippa]

I can't wait until I can digitally UNLEASH THE FOCKIN' FURY!!!

Re:OH YEAH!

[Anonymous Coward]

another glass of water Mr. Malmstein ?

neat-o

[seanw]

this is a solution, searching for a problem

I do not want to run fucking windows CE on my amp, thanks. BSOD = horrible screeching feedback noise, maybe?

Re:neat-o

[Anonvmous Coward]

"I do not want to run fucking windows CE on my amp, thanks. BSOD = horrible screeching feedback noise, maybe?"

It's offical: we've finally scraped the bottom of the barrel for BSOD jokes.

Re:neat-o

[seanw]

are you kidding? that happened AGES ago

RIAA?

[Jason1729]

Does this mean if you try to play a copyrighted work, the RIAA will DOS your guitar?

Jason
ProfQuotes

Re:RIAA?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope, it doesn't.

Re:RIAA?

[Anonymous Coward]

Who's the idiot who moderated this redundant? I've seen a lot of posts lately moderated redundant that are obviously not. It seems to just be a cop-out to mod something down that's questionable and not get punished in M2.

I now M2 all redundant moderations as unfair.

When a really bad band comes on in concert.......

[SirCrashALot]

I'll just pull out my handy-dandy 802.11 jammer :)

Does this mean...

[Quaoar]

...I'll be hit with a classmates.com ad every time I strum G#?

Re:Does this mean...

[littleRedFriend]

No, but it does come with DRM. This will prevent you from playing tunes on your guitar that have been copyrighted.

Re:Does this mean...

[heretic108]

I don't think it would work that way.

But here's how it *could* work:

• At the start of each gig, the guitar amp would 'activate' with a central Gibson server via GPRS, WLAN etc.
  
• Once cleared by the server, the guitar would then be able to play wirelessly.
  
• During each gig, the guitarist's playing would be written to disk as a compressed MIDI file.
  
• During the next 'activation' with the Gibson server, the midi file of the last gig gets uploaded.
  
• The Gibson server analyses the musical components of the MIDI file, and determine which of the licks, riffs, rhythms, fingerings, chops, changes, scales, arpeggios and general melodic sequences are already on the 'copyrighted guitar techniques' database, as well as general songs databases.
  
• For all playing elements that encroach on copyright, the Gibson server would calculate a royalty bill, which would be totalled up and emailed out to the musician. For example, the chord sequence Am/D7/Edom9 would cost 0.1 cent each time it's played.
  
• Failure to pay the royalty bill at the end of each month would result in the guitar refusing to 'activate' at the start of the next gig. Either that, or physically incapable of all chords except those for 'Achy Breaky Heart'
  

Re:Does this mean...

[Anonymous Coward]

Or you could just shut the fuck up and stick a pineapple up your buttocks. What do you think about this?

Re:Does this mean...

[neillewis]

I hope Gibson's lawyers remembered to get them include a 'broadcast bit' in the protocol so the guitarist can sue under the DMCA anyone who records the output without explicit contractural permission...

Re:Does this mean...

[Idarubicin]

No, but all of the backend code will be written in C#.

Re:Does this mean...

[heretic108]

Or you could just shut the fuck up and stick a pineapple up your buttocks. What do you think about this?

That's what we, as consumers, are being asked to do.

Re:Does this mean...

[bitfoam]

...I'll be hit with a classmates.com ad every time I strum G#?

No, but you will need an activation code from M$ if you want to play C#

Haven't you ever been to a concert?

[10e 999]

The info can already be sent wirelessly through the amp via VHF and UHF.

Ever heard of a wireless microphone? Same concept, except connected to the pickups on the guitar.

Re:Haven't you ever been to a concert?

[4string]

Wireless Guitars have been around for a long time, actually wireless units are extremely cheap now. I think Nady has one for $59.

Did Anyone Think...?

[Aldurn]

My fist thought was:

I didn't know Steve Gibson played guitar!

Re:Did Anyone Think...?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, they didn't.

Die die get in the coffin die

Re:Did Anyone Think...?

[juicy_pants]

Did Anyone Think...? My fist thought was:

I didn't know Steve Gibson [grc.com] played guitar!

No.

Re:Did Anyone Think...?

[D iz a n k Meister]

I hope these new Gibson guitars don't come with that horrible security risk, Raw Sockets *gasp*

Just kiddin. I love you Steve. You can probe me any time.

Re:Did Anyone Think...?

[Ratface]

Indeed! I was just on my way to post that if it's Gibson research behind this initiative we at least know that every guitar will come with Shields Up! technology included ;-)

Re:Did Anyone Think...?

[Tink2000]

Actually, I thought, "Wow, not only is Willam a great author, he's a guitarist too?"

Obligatory...

[Anonymous Coward]

Now you can REALLY hack the gibson!

More annoying cliches

[Anonymous Coward]

In Soviet Russia, Linux kernel recompiles YOU!

Not the problem

[evilviper]

You can have it going over ethernet if you want to, but the probelm is the noise introduced by the pickup of choice, not the 1/4 inch cable.

Re:Not the problem

[srichman]

You can have it going over ethernet if you want to, but the probelm is the noise introduced by the pickup of choice, not the 1/4 inch cable.

I'm sorry, but no. Noise will always be introduced by pickups, and many consider it to be part of the "character" of the guitar/pickups. (Modern pickups, particularly humbuckers, aren't all that noisy anyway.) Noise need not be introduced by cables, but it often is, and musicians universally hate it when it is.

Long runs of 1/4 inch cable are notorious for signal interference and degradation. In particular, I (like many others) am often plagued by AM radio interference when I run unbalanced cable too long and amplify it too much.

Balanced cabling (e.g., the XLR cables used for mics) were invented to counteract exactly this kind of interference. Unforunately, most instruments and many effects and amps take only unbalanced connections (though converters are available).

Balanced audio cables try their best to eliminate interference. Digital error correction over ethernet, on the other hand, is perfect. (Well, minus all the information you lost in the digital conversion.)

Sorry for blabbing, but I hate audio cable hum and interference, and I feel pangs of emotion when people claim that pickup noise is more of a concern.

Re:Not the problem

[evilviper]

Noise will always be introduced by pickups, and many consider it to be part of the "character" of the guitar/pickups.

That's very short-sighted. You could just as well say that distortion will always be introduced by amplification (ie. tub-amps), and many consider it to be part of the character.

Long runs of 1/4 inch cable are notorious for signal interference and degradation.

Certianly... But there are plenty of things you can do about it. Even now, you could hook a preamp near your guitar (instead of after the cable run), use wireless connections, balanced cables, etc.

So, to reduce your interference, you already have many options. In the studio (which is where it really matters IMHO) there aren't any real options to eliminate pickup noise.

Re:Not the problem

[srichman]

Noise will always be introduced by pickups, and many consider it to be part of the "character" of the guitar/pickups.

That's very short-sighted. You could just as well say that distortion will always be introduced by amplification (ie. tub-amps), and many consider it to be part of the character.

Come on! Are you really trying to argue that people don't think the distortion introduced by tube amps is part of the "character" of their music!? The overdriven tube distortion sound has virtually defined rock music for decades! The "noise" that tubes produce is mostly in the form of even harmonics, which are pleasing to the ear.

Pickups make noise, most of it desirable, some undesirable. Pickups also have a very significant effect on the final sound that somes out of your guitar. I would consider it a little assuming to try to work out a definition to demarcate the "desirable" from the "undesirable;" a lot of it is in the eye of the beholder (ear of the listener?). Try telling some guy who spent hundreds of dollars (or more) on vintage pickups on eBay that a certain facet of his pickups' sound is just "undesirable noise." He might have thrown down his dollars for that very sound.

Re:Not the problem

[evilviper]

Are you really trying to argue that people don't think the distortion introduced by tube amps is part of the "character" of their music!?

I would never base anything on what people *think*. People think a lot of things, wether they are true or not... Most of the time the actual thinking only comes *after* the decision making.

If you someone wants that tube sound, make it an effect that can be added if someone wants it.

A person could just as well *think* that the noise that long cables experience is part of the "character" of the music as well.

Some people might think that using a straight-razor is part of the experience of shaving... Some people may think cutting yourself is part of the experince of shaving and adds "character" to your face.

Etc.

Re:Not the problem

[Bush Pig]

Actually, using a straight razor _is_ part of the experience of shaving. And before you ask, I hardly ever cut myself (unlike when I use a so-called "safety" razor).

Wow...

[Eric(b0mb)Dennis]

Jack in with the ethernet, man, and score a gibson! ...

Hey there's a video presentation

[t0qer]

They also go into why they chose cat5. It has something to do with packet and jitter control.

Apparently it's compatible with all existing ethernet devices. So in theory you could connect any kind of tranciever you wish. Want Fiber? Just get a tranciever, want wireless? Just buy a tranciever. Want to route it across the internet through a tunnel.. Holy sheep shit batman!

I know a lot of bands, the worst problem they have is finding a studio to practice in. You could set up a "virtual studio" just by tunneling and building VPN's between their houses.

Things like latency could be transformed into delay effects..

Anyways, sounds really cool. I'm gonna post the story on my site and try and get an interview.

Re:Hey there's a video presentation

[Anonymous Coward]

This idea is just plain silly. First, consider who is creating this standard? Who is promoting this standard? Is this in any way necessary? Are there any benefits that can't be realized with current technology?

It is my belief that simply adding "digital" to the standard guitar design does little more than claiming my shiny red bicycle runs on java. In fact there may be more immediate negative consequences than positive ones.

The guitar pickups, as far as I can tell, will still be analog. Thus, every guitar must have an A/D converter in the body. Having digital output will limit you to digital signal processors, unless you first convert back from D/A. You will find countless arguments supporting analog sound quality, I won't even attempt to address that issue. However, what quality do you think the onboard converter in the guitar will be? I doubt (considering size, power, and cost constraints). that it will even begin to approach that of a hide end DSP effects box. Unless of course these are meant prohibitively expensive play toy gadgets. Not to mention these prohibitively expensive gadets will only work with other prohibitively expensive gadgets that are compatible with the same format. Using a guitar to control other devices is not a novel idea, there are plenty of midi conversion kits. With a little technical know how, you could replace the knobs already on your guitar with others to send midi signals (providing you have the appropriate card and install a midi output). The author of the article took a naive view of midi, making it sound like a total failure. Although it might not be the most beautiful solution for communication between instruments, it is successful. You'll be hard pressed to find any quality synthesizers or processing gear that don't utilize the MIDI standard. You'll be hard pressed to find any entry level synthesizers or processors that don't use the standard. A qoute also appears in the article that all instruments and related equipment will be digital in ten years. You'd expect synthesizers to be the first to bring about this revolution, considering the construction. I suppose that is why MOOG is still such a powerful name! The article seems little more than an ill informed response to the intersection of two fields that the author fails to comprehend as a whole.

Re:Hey there's a video presentation

[Anonymous Coward]

• They also go into why they chose cat5. It has something to do with packet and jitter control.

It also begins the process of closing the "analog hole". . .

Re:Hey there's a video presentation

[statusbar]

Sorry, you won't be sending the audio over the internet with much reliability. Packet jitter is totally important with this system. The packet's timing on the receive end is used to set the exact proper sample rate for the output D/A via a Voltage Controlled Crystal Oscillator (VCXO). Just setting both ends to the same sample rate with a plain crystal oscillator is not good enough, both ends will never be the same exact frequency. Both ends must be locked, otherwise you will end up with slippage on one end.

--jeff++

Re:Hey there's a video presentation

[Anonymous Coward]

Hello?

Do you have ANY fucking clue? Obviously not.

Mod me down wankers, but the poster above has no fucking idea at all.

Lets just make shit up and type it. I'll look like I know what i'm talking about. My name's t0qer.

Re:Hey there's a video presentation

[Anonymous Coward]

What was he wrong about? Stupid troll, at least try and explain why.

Re:Hey there's a video presentation

[Moofie]

Hey yeah, you're right. Those guys at Gibson know fuck-all about guitars.

We know you like your vacuum tubes. Can the other kids please play with some different toys now?

Re:Hey there's a video presentation

[t0qer]

This idea is just plain silly. First, consider who is creating this standard? Who is promoting this standard? Is this in any way necessary? Are there any benefits that can't be realized with current technology?

Read the specs, it's all open. Biggest advantage will be user created software synths, better compression/normalization, it's adaptation of highly availiable technology and it's open sourceness (which I know the mods will love me for mentioning)

The one major weakness with midi is it's ring topology. This is just straight up ethernet, any topology that ethernet supports this new standard will.

Here's a quote from the PDF specification.

1.
Physical Layer
: consists of the mechanical and electrical specifications required
to form the physical network. This layer is compatible with the IEEE 802.3
Ethernet physical layer.
2.
Data Link Layer
: as defined by the IEEE 802.3 Ethernet protocol. It views bits
transported by the Physical Layer as defined sequences called frames that can be
transported across any standard Ethernet-compatible network.
3.
MaGIC Application Layer
: uses the frames transported by the Data Link Layer to
encapsulate MaGIC-specific information into packets that allow MaGIC devices
to exchange real-time bi-directional audio and control data.
The MaGIC application layer is independent of the two layers under it thereby providing
the ability to easily change the mode of physical transport based on available technology.

As you can see, it uses just good old 802.3 Here is a list of what Mechanical interfaces it works on.

2.4 Mechanical Interface
The MaGIC protocol is suitable for a variety of physical interfaces. Examples include:
the IEEE 802.3 Ethernet physical layer, the high-speed multi-link Optical Interface,
wireless interfaces, the Ethernet Gigabit-based physical layer, etc.
This specification only describes the MaGIC Link based on the IEEE 802.3 100-Megabit
Ethernet physical layer, which uses standard Category 5 (Cat 5) cables, and RJ-45

I could go on and on about why it's so much better than midi. Check out the pdf, it's got more info than the videos.

Re:Hey there's a video presentation

[Anonymous Coward]

It is my belief that simply adding "digital" to the standard guitar design does little more than claiming my shiny red bicycle runs on java.

A-to-D conversion at the source should mean less noise. They also suggest that you will get a separate signal from each string. This would be very useful because it would give you much finer control over mixing - 6 tracks/channels per guitar instead of just one. And for special effects, applying different processing to different stings would allow a single guitar to sound like six different instruments.

With traditional pickups there would be lots of cross-talk between the strings, but I'm sure they will switch to optical pickups soon. This may be a good reason not to buy one of the first models.

All in all, I think it's way more useful for recording than for live performance.

Re:Hey there's a video presentation

[HamNRye]

Well, I for one could go for some single-string effects. Imagine setting up various delays for each string and playing with the textures offered. Imagine being able to put some crunchy distortion on EA and Overdrive with an echo for DGBE. Works for 12 bar blues.

The real problem I see here is hubs and the like. Consider the 48 point patch bay, a standard for any studio. Now, think of 24 Cat5 ins with 36 discreet channels... They talk about being able to plug dirctly into your PC, but are we going to have dual ethernet?? No, you will probably have/need a Magic card with a Cat 5 plug.

Controlling amps from the guitar... Umm, I like foot pedals for that.... Besides, it is already more than possible. In the commercial world, I think all of the Line 6 amps support MIDI and amp switching from there. Danny Gatton had the "Magic Dingus Box" on his LP that allowed him to control the rate of his Leslies as well as controlling other effects.

"The guitar pickups, as far as I can tell, will still be analog." Really?? They won't be traditional Mag Field pickups and be usable. Single string isolation is just not feasible. The GK-2A's from roland use a hexaphonic magnet arrangement, but require that they be very close to the strings, and there are problems keeping good tone when bending. So, they are either going to have 1 piezo per saddle or something totally new. Piezo's don't sound great anyway, so plan on a lot of post-processing.

Now, could these be equipped with an Livewire ?? That would be nifty...

Final summation?? It has some appeal, and those who went out and got a "Roland Ready Strat" will probably get a "Magic Les Paul". I still won't see either of them when I'm gigging. Actually, if any of you Musicians out there are seeing Roland Ready strats used by other bands please give me some band names. I haven't seen one played here in VA in over 10 years.

JM

Re:Hey there's a video presentation

[illumin8]

Hey, in the immortal words of BT, one of the worlds best musicians (IMNSHO):

"Midi is a protocol from 1981. The only thing I want from 1981 is a pair of parachute pants."

But in all seriousness, MIDI is not widely used in a lot of modern studios. Most digital musicians prefer sample accurate equipment because MIDI always has small amounts unpredictable latency.

When a guitarist...

[Trollificus]

...is frantically setting up his equipment before a gig in a fit of nervousness and adrenaline, the last thing he needs to worry about is a lot of fancy technology.
I'm sure the geek culture thinks this is cool, but most musicians will probably shrug and think, "So what?"
And there are the audiophile types who will condemn the ditigal format as sounding too processed and impersonal. There are some things you can do with analog that digital will never be able to touch.

Don't expect this to take off like the next revolution. It will likely be a nifty toy to play with and nothing more.
I know that after playing guitar for over 10 years, I could really care less about cat5 in my guitar. It is more complication than I need when I'm on stage troubleshooting minor problems.

Re:When a guitarist...

[mabinogi]

> ...is frantically setting up his equipment before a gig in a fit
> of nervousness and adrenaline, the last thing he needs to
>worry about is a lot of fancy technology.

hmmm...so pedals, fm transmitters, effects units, etc aren't a lot of fancy technology?

I really don't think technology bothers most modern guitarists that much....and I really don't think it'll make any difference to them on a practical level whether or not the signal is digital or analogue.
The thing that will really matter, is what do these guitars sound like?

Re:When a guitarist...

[mabinogi]

what on earth makes you think you'll have to worry about any of that?

just because they use ethernet as the link level protocol doesn't mean that suddenly there's a hard drive and a windows PC in every device...

The latency on this is unacceptable.

[Blaede]

It's bad enough that you will be listening to a sampled version of your guitar, but 250 microseconds delay on your sound is the best case scenario? 1/4 second delay? As a mucisian, even one millisecond of delay is not accepable.

Re:The latency on this is unacceptable.

[hpa]

250 microseconds (s), not 250 milliseconds. 250 s is 1/4 of a millisecond, or 1/4000 of a second.

Re:The latency on this is unacceptable.

[MannyDixn]

that's micro-seconds, 250 of which is 1/4 of a milli-second. That's probably reasonable, delay-wise.

Re:The latency on this is unacceptable.

[Space Coyote]

It's bad enough that you will be listening to a sampled version of your guitar, but 250 microseconds delay on your sound is the best case scenario? 1/4 second delay? As a mucisian, even one millisecond of delay is not accepable.

Lunky for you you're ont a mathematician. 250 microseconds = 1/4 millisecond Harely noticeable. Though I think I'll stick to my old setup for now as well.

Re:The latency on this is unacceptable.

[Anonymous Coward]

At 1 metre distance from the instrument, it takes the sound 3 ms to reach your ears.

2 metres, 6 ms.

If 1 ms of delay is unacceptable, you want to start clamping your ears to the speakers.

Re:The latency on this is unacceptable.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's probably worth pointing out that one millisecond of delay is what you get by standing one foot away.

Hmm, was getting away from digital

[Kataklyzm]

Hmm, this seems 'interesting' at best.

I know I've spent the last year finding I really love the sound of analog gear to a lot of digital gear. I've moved from Digitech 2101's and asundry sorts of pedals to Marshall JCM800s and EL34 Dual Monoblocs. I absolutely love the sound I get out of this type of analog gear and cranked valves. I'm not sure I'd want to start playing in a situation where my sound passed through an ADC right in the guitar. That seems to limit some sounds and tone related options quite a bit.

Tho, I'm sure in time as ADCs and DACs get better and sample rates get higher I won't be able to tell the difference. And in fairness newer gear like the Prophecy guitar system are quite impressive.

but for the time being, get your stinking digital off my guitar, you damn dirty engineer! ;-)

Re:Hmm, was getting away from digital

[beowulfcluster]

I've gone through the digital ride the past two years, Boss GT-3 -> Pod -> Flextone -> yada, yada. It's so flexible and it's 'supposed' to sound great, how come I only managed to make it sound 'ok'? I finally gave up on it and now I have a Vox AC30, and it sounds like god himself reaches down and touches that amp when I crank it. Digital might be the future, but it's not quite the present yet (imho of course, others who might now what they're doing when tweaking the digitial stuff might live in a digital present)!

Open Architecture rocks (pun intended)

[bsdbigot]

I noticed that the Specification is offered for a Royalty-free 10 year license. The MaGIC developers seem to have a very strong sense that the only way for music to go digital is to have an Open Architecture. Sounds familiar... At any rate, I've downloaded the PDF Spec; very logically split up (chapter X for hardware guys, chapter Y for net hackers, and chapter Z for app developers) - can't wait to start! I wonder if they'ld mind if I hooked my Strat up with it ;)

Re:Open Architecture rocks (pun intended)

[m1chael]

when you do intend the pun yo dont say you do. you only mention the pun was you dont intend it.

Re:Open Architecture rocks (pun intended)

[bsdbigot]

I'd flame you back, but it would just get modded up and nobody would know what the hell I was talking about ;) Cheers!

Never mind the 1/4 second bit, wrong figure.

[Blaede]

I caught my mistake too late. Still, just the sampled output thing is enough to make me not interested.

Re:Never mind the 1/4 second bit, wrong figure.

[Anonymous Coward]

Doesn't matter, you're still a pretentious retard.

Re:Never mind the 1/4 second bit, wrong figure.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sampled output makes you not interested? I guess you don't listen to CD's then do you.

WOW! Does this mean we can finally...

[Tokerat]

...hack the Gibson?

I'll be damned

[jarkko]

If I'm going to start replacing the cable during a hot solo (screaming chicks, crowd going wild) and the stupid plastic clip on the RJ-45 breaks off.

OTOH, the only time I've ever seen screaming chicks is when they run away.

Digital can duplicate analog sound exactly.

[deathcloset]

Does anyone still actually argue that analog is superior to digital?

I mean, the only thing analog has going for it is "warmth". Of course this "warmth" is a result of the limited frequency and dynamic range of analog and can be easily duplicated.

Tell you what. Have an expert put on headphones and listen to an analog recording, then have them listen to a 32 bit 96khz digital copy of the analog recording. Do you think they are going to be able to tell which is the original? No, of course they won't because the digital copy is IDENTICAL in frequency and dynamic range to the analog signal.
The only difference is that the analog recording is using the full dynamic and frequency range of the medium to reproduce the recording and the digital recording of the analog recording is using a mere fraction of it's potential dynamic and frequency range.

So if one is a superset of the other why even use the other!?

Re:Digital can duplicate analog sound exactly.

[Anonymous Coward]

the difference in this case being: when you overdrive a digital sound channel, you get a this godawful staticky thing that makes ears bleed. whereas when you overdrive an old valve amp, you get that toneful guitar crunch (e.g. Jimi Hendrix). granted it may still make your ears bleed, but they will bleed happy.

Re:Digital can duplicate analog sound exactly.

[buswolley]

32/96? 24/96 i believe.

also if the converts were of nice quality. but the wont.. because.. theyre expensive.

the cheap converts are pretty shitty.

Re:Digital can duplicate analog sound exactly.

[Anonymous Coward]

When CD was introduced, it was claimed that it was superior to analogue because (using Nyquist theorem) it reproduces frequencies up to 22kHz, beyond what was considered to be the range of human hearing.

The new Super Audio CD goes way beyond that, because apparently higher frequencies do have a noticeable effect on how we perceive the sound. Particularly drums and the like.

But you're talking about the last link in the chain.

This is talking about the initial production of sound, and digital has not won that yet. An analogue synth, despite being a pain in the ass to use, still sounds better than a digital "virtual analogue" simulation, and old tube amps still sound better than the new modelling amps (in general - there are dogs of both types).

Part of the reason is that old analogue gear contains nonlinear circuitry, the subjective effect of which is not fully understood. It's not as easy as emulating a linear system, say the reverb of an accoustic space, in which digital can emulate perfectly - you simply take the impulse response of the system and use that as a convolution kernel.

Personally, I use a digital synth which models analogues (Nord Modular) and a digital amp modeller (POD). I don't think the vastly higher price of analogue gear is worth paying for the slightly nicer sound, and digital stuff is much less hassle to use.

Re:Digital can duplicate analog sound exactly.

[Mr.Coffee]

i'm not currently sure if there are 32 bit DAWs (digital audio workstations) out there yet. the highest sample rate i've seen is on the Pro Tools HD system, that's 192khz/24bit. and yes, there is still a difference between that and full wave analog (what they're talking about in the a/d debate) one gets a full wave analog source from one of two places typicaly: 1) turntables and 2) good reel-to-reel tape machines. whilst even some of the most discerning ears would have difficulty telling the difference between a 192/24 signal and a full wave analog signal. the difference is still there and can still be palpable. just dump a whole lot of DSP and effects on there, and it will start to come out of the woodwork. a sample is basicaly an instantanous picture of a sound wave. they're measure in sample rates (hz) and resolution(bits) the sample rate is just that, how many samples per second. the resolution is how much info is recorded per sample (which can translate roughly into how much headroom one gets) now, basically in order to get an accurate picture of a sound wave, you need to measure it in a couple of places 1) at it's lowest point, and 2) at it's highest point. the midpoint can be defined from these two as well as reference stuff, and i'm not to up on the ee ans such, so this will be basic and/or possible flawed. feel free to straighten out the facts as need be.
what this comes down to basically is that you need a sample rate of twice the highst frequency you want to record. (this is why cd's are 44.1 khz) some of the factors to consider here are saturation , dynamic range, and signal to noise ratios. the more complex an audio signal is, the more it can be said to be saturated. this can cause clipping and data loss, and in a digital environment, that results in distortion. in modern electronics you're seeing a constant increase in signal to noise ratio and dynamic ranges. these two factors are linked, as the dynamic range increases, the potential for a better s/n ratio also increases. notice i say potential, having the headroon does not mean it will be noise free. but pick up some data sheets and compare the s/n ratio of cd's and dvd's. there is a difference there of usually 10-20 db. that is one hell of alot of a difference. higher sample rates and more discret electronics allow for this. anyway, i'm starting to think myself in circles, and i fear i have already made a fallacy or two, so i'm going to stop now.

Re:Digital can duplicate analog sound exactly.

[Anonymous Coward]

you are all wrong

Re:Digital can duplicate analog sound exactly.

[LizardKing]

Does anyone still actually argue that analog is superior to digital?

Yup. Ever heard digital distortion? It's downright disgusting and would only be considered useful by certain Industrial-Noise outfits. My valve bass amp (Ampeg SVT) compresses as it reaches distortion, creating a fantastic sound.

On the synth front, my Korg Mono/Poly sounds far superior to the MS2000 digital synth that sits above it. Fuller bass sounds, more cutting leads and pad sounds that exude far more character and are so fat they need compression to fit in the mix.

On the drum machine front, it's more a matter of taste, but for me a Korg KPR-77 with everything but the kick run through a Roland RE501 tape echo sounds great.

Chris

Re:Digital can duplicate analog sound exactly.

[Anonymous Coward]

The issue with a guitar is that distortion sounds different on a digital amp (transistors) versus an analogue amp (valves). One sounds like a sick chainsaw, and one sounds like rock'n'roll. The technical reason for this can be seen when you look at the respective sound waves. As the wave gets bigger, a digital amp simply chops the top and bottom of the peaks and troughs. This sounds hella-ugly. A valve amp actually curves the peaks over smoothly.. this sounds a lot nicer.

However.. this effect can be reproduced with fancy electronics, but why bother?

Re:Digital can duplicate analog sound exactly.

[bailout911]

Ever heard digital distortion? It's downright disgusting and would only be considered useful by certain Industrial-Noise outfits.

Please tell me you're not serious. Digital distortion (depending on how implemented) can give various sounds. Sure, it will never be the same as your favorite tube, but it also doesn't radiate a small star's worth of heat or run at 250 V.

Why do people claim that tube-based audio products sound "better" or "warmer"? It's because of the harmonics involved in the distortion. Tubes produce mostly even harmonics, which sound "softer" to the typical human ear. Transistors tend to produce more odd harmonics, which give the signal a "harsh" tone. "Better" depends completely on the desired effect, but all methods of distortion essentially do the same thing.

Re:Digital can duplicate analog sound exactly.

[Anonymous Coward]

Does anyone still actually argue that analog is superior to digital?

It's not about better or worse, but _how_.

Tell you what. Have an expert put on headphones and listen to an analog recording, then have them listen to a 32 bit 96khz digital copy of the analog recording.

Yes, the digital REPRODUCES exactly the sound the analog PRODUCES--but cannot produce the sound itself to begin with.

Re:Digital can duplicate analog sound exactly.

[Da Schmiz]

You misunderstand, my friend.

I have no problem with digital recording. You're right, it's possible, with enough bits, to create a (near-)flawless digital signal. Digitally recorded music does tend to have far less noise and distortion, especially after multiple generations.

But that's not what we're talking about here.

As a guitarist, I am playing an instrument. The purpose of the instrument is to translate my musical imagination into sound. Therefore, everything along my signal chain, from the pickups in my guitar, to my preamp, to my effects, to my amp's power section, to my speakers, are all really part of my instrucment, since they all affect the tone of my instrument. Yes, it's true that analog devices create more distortion than digital. And, shockingly enough, as part of my instrument, that analog distortion is exactly what I want! Most modern electric guitarists use a lot of overdrive or distortion, and tubes create a fuller, warmer distortion than transistors can -- especially at low gain (Stevie Ray Vaughan) or super-saturated high gain (Joe Satriani) levels.

Now, a lot of work has been done lately in emulating the waveform of a vacuum tube at high output, but I've yet to hear anything that can exactly duplicate the sound. I've got a digital preamp here that is pretty good, and to an untrained ear might sound the same, but there is a difference. I don't mind the digital, but, given the choice, I'll take a tube amp over a digital one, and I think the vast majority of modern guitarists would agree.

Even Marshall has been making AVT amps with solid-state power sections, but the preamp is still a 12AX7 vaccuum tube. It just wouldn't quite sound the same without it. (Note: I've never played an AVT. They may sound awful. I certainly doubt they sound as good as a JCM2000.)

It reminds me of a clip I once saw of Pete Townsend. He said, roughly, "Buy yourself a nice guitar, like a Les Paul. Plug it into a big Marshall stack. And hit a chord. And then you'll understand."

Re:Digital can duplicate analog sound exactly.

[wunderhorn1]

Transistors != digital.

Transistors vs. tubes and digital vs. analog are 2 entirely separate debates. Analog and digital are just ways of encoding a signal. Transistors and tubes do the same thing (gating an electric current), just in slighty different ways. The first digital computers used tubes because transistors hadn't been invented yet, if that helps you understand.

Transistor distortion pedals are going to sound different than tube distortion pedals, but they're both analog. Digital would mean sampling the signal, encoding it in 1's and 0's, and using a software program to distort the signal. Think "digital delay" vs. "tape echo."

Re:Digital can duplicate analog sound exactly.

[tweakt]

these two factors are linked, as the dynamic range increases, the potential for a better s/n ratio also increases. notice i say potential, having the headroon does not mean it will be noise free. but pick up some data sheets and compare the s/n ratio of cd's and dvd's. there is a difference there of usually 10-20 db. that is one hell of alot of a difference. higher sample rates and more discret electronics allow for this. anyway, i'm starting to think myself in circles, and i fear i have already made a fallacy or two, so i'm going to stop now.

Yep, you sure have.

Dude, you completely forget that anolog gear is most definately NOT noise-free. If you are looking for the highest dynamic range and signal to noice ratio, digital recording is the only way to get it.

With Sony Direct Stream Digital, the contest is basically over. It can completely reproduce the contents of ANY analog audio recording. Vinyl deteriorates, gets scratched/dusty, etc... bits don't.

Re:Digital can duplicate analog sound exactly.

[deathcloset]

wow, psuedo-flamadge eh?!

Now I agree that digital distortion is ugly as hell. I use, Sonic Foundrys suite of crap, and I am well aquainted with Pro Tools. I have been making digital music for a very long time.

and yes, the 32 bit thing was wrong. But there is an extra 8 bits in the 24 bit used for something. so in 24 bit recordings there are still 32 bits, though 8 of them aren't directly used for the audio representation.

Now do you really think that an expert could tell the difference between an analog recording and the digital copy of that analog recording?

analog is superior to digital the same way walking is superior to driving: If you run into something it's much more forgiving.

so the answer to digital superiority is to avoid distortion.

Don't we already have these?

[cabra771]

ummm...they're called synthesizers. Reading this story gives me cringing thoughts of those horrid keyboard-guitar hybrids from the 80's. If it's going to be digital then keep it on the good ol' horizontal keyboard synth. I like my guitars just the way they are.

Re:Don't we already have these?

[Anonymous Coward]

OMG! KEYTARS ROCK HARD!

Or. . .

[D iz a n k Meister]

Smoke more pot and it's even simpler.

Re:Or. . .

[Anonymous Coward]

agreed. Smoke less pot and you'll figure out plugging/unplugging cables for little/no pay is no fun when sober.

Anyone know the over/under until...

[SensitiveMale]

the first web server appears on one of these things?

And the first copy of Doom that is controlled by the guitar?

Re:Anyone know the over/under until...

[deathcloset]

Oddly enough the simpsons sound effects engineer uses a guitar with a midi pickup for insertions!

isn't that weird?

Re:Anyone know the over/under until...

[Anonymous Coward]

No, not off the top of my head, but send your email address and you'll be the first to know.

Can give a whole new meaning to...

[SensitiveMale]

to the song "Communication Breakdown"

Re:Can give a whole new meaning to...

[Anonymous Coward]

nope, 'It's always the same'

Don't Write it Off Yet!

[Hasie]

Remember that many of the arguments against this technology are the same as the orginal arguments against electric guitars (pioneered by Les Paul if memory serves), electronic keyboards, and most other tech-based revolutions in the music industry. Yes, guitarists are traditionally very conservative, but they adopted the electric guitar, so why not the electronic guitar?

Re:Don't Write it Off Yet!

[Anonymous Coward]

Charlie Christian was the *First* electric guitarist

Re:Don't Write it Off Yet!

[D iz a n k Meister]

Les Paul pioneered "solid body" electric guitars.

Re:Don't Write it Off Yet!

[Anonymous Coward]

Would his real impact be inductive pickups as opposed to accoustic guitars with microphones?

Re:Don't Write it Off Yet!

[D iz a n k Meister]

Well, according to The Ultimate Guitar Book, Rickenbacker was the first to put electro-magnetic pickups(inductive) on to steel guitars.

Les Paul has this thing called "The Log" where he put some pickups on a 2x4, glued on a neck and some cutouts from an Epiphone, and went to Gibson in like 1941 saying, you sould build a guitar like this, which was supposed to give more sustain over the "Spanish Electric" guitars that people, like Charlie Christian, were playing at the time. Then in 1950, Fender started manufacturing the Broadcaster. The Broadcaster was a simple solid-body guitar with a bolt-on neck. So, Gibson sought him out in 1951 to design a guitar to his specifications to compete with the Broadcaster. They didn't want to put the Gibson name on it right away, so they called them Les Paul guitars.

same _basic_ concept...different demands

[djupedal]

From the article:

"New team member Alexei Beliaev will help rev the spec to version 3.0 by March, adding support for video and 1-Gbit/second speeds, up from 10/100-Mbit Ethernet today. Magic uses the Ethernet physical layer and Category 5 cables to provide thirty-two 32-bit bidirectional audio channels with sample rates up to 192 kHz, jitter less than 80 picoseconds and latency as low as 250 microseconds across 100-meter point-to-point links. The protocol uses a UDP-like packet held to a fixed packet length and transmission rate. Magic conforms to the 802.3af spec for providing power over Ethernet."

In terms of connection vs. usage, this particular concept is a bit ahead of the curve. As much as I endorse 802.11g, I don't think it will cut it for these guys. Wonder if they've tried FireWire 800?

RJ45 Connector Durability Issues

[farfisa69]

There is no way that RJ45 connectors would be able to endure any kind of live stage abuse. At least mLAN uses Firewire cables which are possibly a little more durable. Why don't they update the MIDI protocol to include all these extra things. In a MIDI lead two of the five pins don't do anything anyway. Everyone's gear already has MIDI connections, so I reckon it would take a while for the new protocol to take off.

All in all though, new technology such as this will create some totally wild new music and some awesome new stage shows. I am excited! (Big Kev excited!)

Some related technologies:

Yamaha mLAN

CobraNet

Steinberg System Link

Re:RJ45 Connector Durability Issues

[Soporific]

Well, I guess instead of one loop around the guitar strap they could do two. Honking out a 1/4 in. cable is easier than pulling an RJ-45 jack.

Re:RJ45 Connector Durability Issues

[mlong]

There is no way that RJ45 connectors would be able to endure any kind of live stage abuse.

Oh really?

Re:RJ45 Connector Durability Issues

[Megane]

There is no way that RJ45 connectors would be able to endure any kind of live stage abuse.

That's the first thing I thought of. They keep falling out of my laptop's port all the time, even when the clip isn't broken. Good thing I have my DHCP server provide the same IP address to both my Ethernet and WiFi interfaces so it can do a seamless fallback.

There is a good reason why the 1/4" plug is so successful.

At least mLAN uses Firewire cables which are possibly a little more durable.

Then you've never had the pleasure of the plastic center bit breaking and coming out with the cable. Seems the ports are still usable even without it, but I worry a bit about shorts and stuff.

Re:RJ45 Connector Durability Issues

[MamasGun]

As those connectors stand, they wouldn't do for this spec...those connectors are only certified for 10 base T. However, it should be trivial to improve them for Cat 5/5a/6 compliance. Spiffy.

Better to strum a G$

[Soporific]

Than to strum a sharp G$.

~S

Re:Better to strum a G$

[Tokerat]

It's that a new Ja Rule song?

Please, lord. . . no!

[Skadet]

"They are more focused in finding ways to recreate the sounds Led Zeppelin or B.B. King laid down in the '60s or '70s," said Thompson

And there's my big problem with digital amps. Jimmy Paige didn't need them, nor did B.B. or Eric Clapton. Why do you need a computer's help getting killer tone? Hint: It's because you don't know how to do it the 'real' way. It's expensive to get real good, real loud tone no matter what instrument you play, and this digital crap is just a shortcut -- a pretty lousy sounding facsimile of a shortcut for the most part.

In other words, this is for the script kiddies of the music world.

Besides, my cat5's connector inevitably snaps off after a decent amount of use. Could you imagine the number of connectors a gigging band would go through, plugging and unplugging those a hundred times a day? As said before, it's a solution looking for a problem. Unless Gibson has something else up their sleeves we don't know about... Hmm...

Re:Please, lord. . . no!

[fr0dicus]

Jimmy Page now uses an electronically self tuning guitar.....wired has a story about it.

Try to keep up, like Jimmy does. ;-)

Re:Please, lord. . . no!

[IngoSchi]

Jimmy Page now uses an electronically self tuning guitar

The amazing thing is, "now" was almost a decade ago.

Re:Please, lord. . . no!

[Anonymous Coward]

He's also paunchy and hasn't produced anything decent in 20 years.

Re:Please, lord. . . no!

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe he should go back to the obviously, and undeniably, better analog equipment.

Re:Please, lord. . . no!

[JaredOfEuropa]

"It's because you don't know how to do it the 'real' way. "

I think the great thing about the advance of electronics and computers in music is precisely this:it has made many hard-to-do things easier. And even the script kiddies as you call them come up with good music every now and then. Sure, they turn out a lot of bad stuff but it isn't all bad.

Re:Please, lord. . . no!

[Anonymous Coward]

How will that help him kick his fridge addiction?

Re:Please, lord. . . no!

[MamasGun]

It's not a fridge addiction folks...longterm Heroin usage can pooch out a person's face/body if they aren't experiencing Heroin-related anorexia. For another good example of this phenomenon, check out the later episodes of "Married With Children" during Christina Applegate's junkie phase. Ms. Applegate in that period had a face that made Margaret Cho's look positively chiseled.

Regardless of appearance problems, Jimmy Page still has the touch musically. The Plant/Page "No Quarter" album is great. Aging's also not been kind to Robert Plant either, but those pipes are unchanged. Glorious. Pity Page wasn't asked to compose the "LOTR" scores because I have a hardwired connection in my brain between the Tolkien books and Zeppelin. I can't help it, I'm a child of the '70s. They should have at least put "Battle Of Evermore" on the soundtrack, dammit!

Re:Please, lord. . . no!

[revividus]

"Jimmy Paige didn't need them, nor did B.B. or Eric Clapton." A reasonable overview of Jimmy's career, in particular, shows him to have used or abused almost every studio trick and technology available to him at the time. The guy played guitar with a violin bow, for crying out loud; he coaxed every different sound out of his guitar that he possibly could. It makes more sense to think the only reason Jimmy wasn't experimenting with this, was because it didn't exist.

Nice try

[Anonymous Coward]

We'll see whether a working technology will be accepted by the musicians. This seems to be one of the countless aproaches to make the world of eletric guitars use standard technology. Up to now, Gibson is earning (do they ?) money with guitars rebuild along the specs of these late 50 myths. Surprisingly the technology of these instruments has its origins in the 1920's. How to get from there to CAT5 ?

Cheap home recording!!

[tgrotvedt]

This could be really, really good for young bands and such who are making demos so they can get signed to *gasp*, a major label, or even indie recording. Most people assume that it would be very easy to record guitar and get a good sound. Well when I set about recording a demo for my band, I found out just how wrong I was.

'Till now, if you wanted to record on a PC (and some of this also applies to 8-tracks and tape systems), you'd either need a really good stack, a proffesional pre-amp, or one of those new-fangled V-Amps. But none of those come dirt cheap, so lots of people have to download software amp sims from Kazaa, and stick with that. Not great.

In a few years, if this tech makes it into low-end guitars, beautiful, full, well equalised tones for everybody! And I also imagine that when this becomes common place, it will bring the quality of cheap & expensive axes much closer together.

Nowadays, alot of rich kids, or kids with parents or brothers or whatever in the industry make it because they are the only ones that get to prove themselves. Even without being conscious of it, the A&R rep at the studio will prefer a real nice sounding, well produced demo than something cheap, because it makes the songs sound better, and in music, what else is there? In the long run, this technology could be really beneficial. But for now all the struggling artists will have to keep hearing audiophile elitists crapping on about how anything mastered at anything less than perfect 96khz audio hurts their ears.

Re:Cheap home recording!!

[lennart78]

'Till now, if you wanted to record on a PC (and some of this also applies to 8-tracks and tape systems), you'd either need a really good stack, a proffesional pre-amp, or one of those new-fangled V-Amps. But none of those come dirt cheap, so lots of people have to download software amp sims from Kazaa, and stick with that. Not great.

I have a little experience in home recording, and I have to disagree.
Since it's little use to plug a guitar straight into a soundcard, you'll need some pre-amping. I use a zoom gfx-8 to get the right signal strength. This baby cost me the equivalent of $500. It can do some compression (which it shouldn't) and a hell of a distortion (even though it's digital, it beats a lot of analog equipment I've used, including my current choice of amplifier),and some other fx, if you'd like to. (Every el-cheapo amp with a line-out will also do fine, in my esteem.)
When you've pushed you signal through this thing, any decent sequencer software can finish the job, provided it is equipped with a compressor and a parametric equalizer. These are available for under $200. You can use the fx-processor for bass too, but I personally perfer the line-out of my old 25-watt bass amp, because it's got all it's need, and anything I need to alter, I can do with some EQ.

The moral of this story:
Gibson MAGIC will NOT make home recording cheap, because these babies will be /very/ expensive to start out with, besides, you will not find any Gibson guitar for under $1000, and you will need an evenly expensive amp to boot...

Re:Cheap home recording!!

[buswolley]

not to mention the cost of quality a/d converters.

Re:Cheap home recording!!

[tgrotvedt]

Yeah, all the things you said are right, but when I was saying cheap, I meant *cheap*, as in for highschool kids. And when talking about this Magic technology, I more meant in 5-10 years if/when it becomes common-place on all guitars.

Anyway, seeing as you have some experience you may be able to answer me something.

> Every el-cheapo amp with a line-out will also do fine, in my esteem.

Really? If so then that's good, because I had a friend who had done some recording who told me that I can forget using the line-out on a real amp for input to a soundcard. I have a fairly nice 50 watt Jade (Aussie brand) amp that I use at home and have messed around with enough to get the sound I like quickly. I read stuff about the line levels on amp line out being different to a sound card and that trying this may harm the card. That's what stoped me from experimenting.

If you're fairly sure that this would do the trick, then it would solve one or two problems for me!

Re:Cheap home recording!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Heh. Reminds me of an observation one of my long time guitar playing friends made about gear- "Everything cool is a thousand bucks."

OT but you mention recording, demos, stacks and the like-

I'm not sure I've ever heard a stack that sounded like a stack after the engineering/production happens on the final mix. Just my opinion of course. So keeping that perspective in mind...

Many moons ago I built PAiA's "Stack In A Box."

http://www.paia.com/tubestuf.htm

Bought the PCB from PAiA then stuffed it with mostly salvaged parts. I believe I spent about $40 total.

Added compression, eq, a bit of reverb and got what was in my opinion very passible guitar sounds considering it was just a few pawn shop pedals and a kit pre-amp going straight into the board.

Guess the point is that I'm too cheap to buy magic when solder will do. YMMV.

Re:Cheap home recording!!

[Mr.Coffee]

What you're friend and possibly the things you've ready about line level signals is probably the difference between home and pro equipment. line level for home equipment is -10dbu, and pro equipment is +4 dbu, for a difference of 14 db, which is substantial.
that being said, the two are not totally incompatible. some solutions to adapt this are: go to your local electronics store and buy an inline volume control for headphones, this will work to lower the level of your guitar's line out, and help to keep from frying your sound card, just turn the volum down untill there is little distortion. a safer bet would be to acquire a 20 db antenuator, which can look like alot of things, but can also be inline. there are also several converters that will go from =4dbu to -10 dbu and back, but these are more expensive. one other option you could use (which makes a good backup amp as well) is to take a tape adapter for a cd player, ya know, the cassette with the headphone cord coming out. and hook your guitar up to that, then put the tape into the tape deck and hit play. presto, you can play your guitar in your car, or anywhere else with a tape deck. of course, this is not the mos desirable option, as you will get alot of noise from the tape mechanism and such, but it will work in a pinch.

if your amp has a headphone jack, you could also use that to adapt to your computer, and just adjust the level on that. you could also probably use a phonograph preamp to connect to your computer.

Re:Cheap home recording!!

[poot_rootbeer]

This technology will never filter down to low-end guitars, because to do it (and to do it RIGHT) is going to be expensive, especially compared to doing it the old fashioned way.

The electronics in an electric guitar are amazingly simple. The pickups are just magnetic coils, they go through a rheostat or two for the volume and tone knobs, then to a 1/4" jack and off to the amplifier or effects rig.

To replace the phono cord with Cat-5 means you have to stick an ADC in there to convert the signal from analog to digital, then an Ethernet adaptor to convert the digital signal into packets that can go out the RJ-45 jack. And then on the other end, the amplifier or signal processor has to have the same thing to convert the packets back into an analog audio signal. And you don't want to skimp on any of this, as the degradation in audio quality will be easily apparent.

If you want to record a decent quality guitar tone, just get a SansAmp. They're cheap as far as musical electronics go and produce acceptable if not spectacular results -- they're used professionally more often than you'd imagine.

Re:Cheap home recording!!

[spruce]

I have a 100 watt amp that I used to have plugged into the 1/4 inch on a Soundblaster Live card and it fried the jack, so you might want to be careful.

Re:Cheap home recording!!

[Anonymous Coward]

hah, same here!

Re:Cheap home recording!!

[Wildcat J]

Want a simple solution? Buy a cheap mixer. It's a good idea to have an external mixer around, anyway. I had the same sort of problems you experienced, but with the mixer, I was able to record decent quality demos on a modest PC with a SB Live Value. Mostly, I was toying around, and I mic'ed a cheapo amp (I live in an apartment, so the half-stack would be a bad idea ;), but it works pretty well. Plus, any decent mixer should have phantom power for condenser mics, something the soundcard can't provide.

What you can do on some mixers is use the 2-track in and out to go to your sound card output and input, so you can record track-by-track. Make sure the 2-track in doesn't go to the main mix unless you want an infinite feedback loop. I personally use a 20-channel Behringer (around $200, but you can get a decent smaller one for under $100) and I've been very satisfied. I now use an Echo Audio Mia digital audio card (~$180) but I still use the same mixer.

-J

Re:Cheap home recording!!

[Azothoth]

It's not dirt cheap, but the POD (http://www.line6.com) is accessible to most. $300. It lets you record direct, with excellent results. No expensive mics, no soundproofed rooms, no studios necessary.

I can see it now - Screw the Marshall stack,

[SensitiveMale]

Give me a Cisco Stack!!!!

Wrong...

[Theaetetus]

Firewire currently tops out at 800Mb/second, and is a relatively new techology. Cat5e can handle 1 GB/sec, and has been around in its current incarnation for quite a few years.

Also, the max length of a FireWire cable is 4.5 meters, while Ethernet can do 100 meters before needing a repeater.

Not sure how much bandwidth a gee-tar takes up, but I'd bet that cable length was the deciding factor in this design.

From Apple's Firewire 800 page:
"FireWire 400 delivers data over cables of up to 4.5 meters in length. Using professional-grade glass optical fiber, FireWire 800 can burst data across 100 meter cables."

-T

Re:Wrong...

[ikewillis]

"FireWire 400 delivers data over cables of up to 4.5 meters in length. Using professional-grade glass optical fiber, FireWire 800 can burst data across 100 meter cables." If fiber optics were used, how would the guitar's pickups and DSP be powered (not to mention the Firewire transciever)? A separate input for power? I don't think this is nearly as ideal a solution.

Re:Wrong...

[Theaetetus]

"FireWire 400 delivers data over cables of up to 4.5 meters in length. Using professional-grade glass optical fiber, FireWire 800 can burst data across 100 meter cables." If fiber optics were used, how would the guitar's pickups and DSP be powered (not to mention the Firewire transciever)? A separate input for power? I don't think this is nearly as ideal a solution.

Read the F-ing link before you reply next time. 1394b carries power, even over optical - bundled with the optical cable are a pair of wires for power.

-T

Re:Wrong...

[Anonymous Coward]

Four "wires" in Firewire versus two in Cat 5e makes Firewire less reliable (i.e., more likely for one of the "wires" to break).

Also, optical cables cost more than copper, not to mention that their cost is on top of copper wires, so the total cable cost per meter would be much higher.

Firewire is not as good a choice for this application. Then again, 100 meter cable lengths are likely to cause latency problems for both types of cable.

Re:Wrong...

[Moofie]

Settle down, Beavis. And, at any rate, the theoretical burst transfer rate is way less important than getting all the packets exactly when you expect them for this particular application. Yes, firewire can do synchronous transfers, but I don't think those happen near max throughput speeds.

Wouldn't it make sense to guess that these engineers thought about alternatives, and selected the best one? In what way would FireWire be superior for this application, apart from the fact that you could plug your guitar into, uh, your camcorder?

Re:Wrong...

[gazbo]

Given that cat5 signals travel somewhere in the region of 0.6C (I don't know the exact figure), I don't think you'll have to worry about latency until the musicians start playing from the next town.

Re:Wrong...

[BeatleBill109]

Yamaha has been pushing a multichannel digital audio over Firewire standard called mLAN for a while now. It seems to be a more ambitious attempt to network everything from the sound source to the harddisk, with mixing consoles and effects in between.

Re:Wrong...

[Anonymous Coward]

Well Firewire would make the damn thing a lot more expensive. Cables will cost 20 dollars for 5 feet instead of 2 bucks.

Re:Wrong...

[jeddak]

FireWire makes sense because of many existing digital audio products - computer interfaces from Mark of the Unicorn (MOTU), Digidesign, M-Audio, and others, not to mention several high-end digital signal processors.

Firewire isn't just a camcorder interface!

Re:Wrong...

[linoge]

hmm, I can picture this already - Ozzy Osbourne connected with an optical fibre cable.

Very short concert that will be....

Re:Wrong...

[Moofie]

Fair enough. Seems like a bridge would be easy enough to construct, at any rate...

Bridge like network bridge, not bridge like between the chorus and the third verse... : )

Cool...

[Anonymous Coward]

...Now I can blame the guitar for having a lousy ping, when I screw up at a gig!

I can see it already...

[SensitiveMale]

During some guitar contest, the losing geek can launch a DoS attack against the leader

Line6 already won in this domain

[mirko]

Line6 offer a better choice for most guitarist with their GuitarPort : it allows one to use its existing guitar with computer which'll model the required amp/cabs sounds...

Now, the laziest could also check out Steinberg's Virtual Guitarist...

Think of the possiblities when they add memory...

[SensitiveMale]

to the guitar.

It would be just like adding a sequencer to a drumkit.

The guitarist can play lead and rythm parts on the same guitar.

No more problems when lip synching or playing the music off a tape. Simply save the packets on the guitar and send out. How would the audience or the anyone know?

You could actually buy a guitar that played EVERY Stones or Rush song perfectly.

Cover bands everywhere are celebrating.

Does this mean...

[Anonymous Coward]

Does this mean Microsoft will require a EULA for all music played in the key of C# ?

*rimshot*

Thanks I'll be here all week!

major label?

[Skadet]

You speak as if being signed to a major label is a good thing...

I want the first Slayer branded controller

[Anonymous Coward]

That way I can be sure to send my enemies to everlasting Doom.

So what?

[kamapuaa]

This doesn't seem like a very useful product. As far as I can tell, the advantage to this is:

1) Able to use CAT5 cable instead of normal cable. That's cool but no big deal.

2) Effects can be controlled from an on-guitar dash-board, instead of foot pedals. Foot pedals are convenient and can be manipulated while playing the guitar, which is important. Also, so far, all-in-one digital effects aren't so great. So it might be useful for beginners, but it doesn't sound like the technology is being aimed at beginners. (Worth noting that Gibson experimented with controlling effects from the guitar in the 70's, but the guitars didn't sell well.)

Regardless, any guitarist would have to be prepared to play in a situation that uses normal equipment. So why bother having the second technology?

It's not a blanket opposition to digitalizing guitars... the Variax seems like a pretty cool guitar, if overpriced, and the basic technology has obvious cool applications that haven't been exploited yet. But Gibson's new technology doesn't seem to have a good reason to exist.

Re:So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

As a guitarist, I'd say that getting a great sounding guitar that can sound like 10 other guitars, sitar, etc... for under $1000 is not a overpriced at all... Variax rocks...

Is Ethernet the best choice?

[autopr0n]

I mean, Ethernet isn't really designed for real-time connections. I realize that it can work when you get to the really high speeds, but wouldn't that be expensive.

I guess what I'm wondering is, why did they chose Ethernet rather then Fire wire, or even S/PDIF? Do you need to use special switching hardware that insures real-time communication? What about packet loss?

Personally, I'd like it if everything used Ethernet, it really does seem to be the most convenient form of networking out there. Hopefully all the work put in by Gibson will be adopted and we'll be able to plug our stereo, TV, VCR and everything directly into our home gigabit LAN. It would make things a lot easier, that's for sure.

Re:Is Ethernet the best choice?

[djupedal]

I agree, but since they started this three years ago, you have to think they made the best choice under the circumstances. I'm sure they will fix it if it becomes an issue.

Re:Is Ethernet the best choice?

[Echnin]

Ethernet isn't designed for real-time connections? Then why does it work so well to play games over? BTW, what's up with autopr0n.com? It's been down, like, forever.

Re:Is Ethernet the best choice?

[DarkMan]

Firstly, remember that Ethernet is not TCP/IP. TCP/IP is not Ethernet.

This stuff is not compatible with a typical home LAN. You could write a Linux Magic protocol stack, and use a standard Ethernet card. But you'd have to have a different card for your Lan (Perfectly feasable, by the way).

Ethernet is one of the few networking hardware systems that is cheap, comodity, high bandwidth and can deliver power. I can't think of another that meats those criteria.

Magic is a protocol at the same level as TCP/IP.

Re:Is Ethernet the best choice?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Hopefully all the work put in by Gibson will be adopted and we'll be able to plug our stereo, TV, VCR and everything directly into our home gigabit LAN. It would make things a lot easier, that's for sure."

Hmm.... You might want to check this out.

http://www.lynxbroadband.com/

Re:Is Ethernet the best choice?

[silverhalide]

Ethernet cabling has one huge advantage over these other two standards: long runs. You can run 200+feet of ethernet no problem with signal loss, while I believe firewire is limited to under 30 feet, and I'm not sure how far S/PDIF can go. When you're running audio for a gig though, sometimes you have to make very long runs from mixer boards to amps to instruments which can often be quite a distance apart in any professional gig. An interesting side note, Yamaha is already marketing a version of this with their mLAN system, which hooks up to Yamaha digital instruments and other MIDI stuff utilizing Firewire technology. Fascinating.

Re:Is Ethernet the best choice?

[silverhalide]

You're misusing the term "Real-time". Realtime means extremely low and reliably latency, on the order of 1ms or less. It DOESN'T necessarily mean high-bandwidth, or large amounts of data. Another word used in the industry is deterministic. In other words, you know the data will show up within a certain timeframe, guarranteed. There is no guarrentee with the traditional ethernet archticture. "Real time games" are actually very tolerant, and with efficent engines, they actually tolerate lag times up to 300 milliseconds or so. However, if there was a 300 millisecond delay from when you played a note on a guitar and the sound came out the amp, it would be completely unplayable.

Re:Think of the possiblities when they add memory.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, except that when the guitar plays a Rush song, it will still suck.

NOT the 1/4 inch cable??

[D iz a n k Meister]

Try running that 1/4 inch cable through powerstrips filled to the rim with wall warts for your effects. Hear that hum??

That hum will still be present on the ethernet signal, but not in the packets. Even better than balanced.

That guy just rules!!!

[chip_s_ahoy]

I know that you make fun of him, and all, but this is just an awesome display of technological diversity!!!

I mean, you can go to his website and get your probes ported, and get your testes shielded, and get your zip drive fixed, and get a screensaver, and get some really 31337 advice on stuff, and even get a tool that tells you your IP address. And it's all in "hand-crafted assembly code!!!"

And now he does stuff with guitars!!! And it's Ace Frehley's brand of guitar. Wow!!! ...oh...not that Gibson? So I shouldn't have used all the !!!'s?

nuts

[io333]

This is a solution in search of a problem.

I've been a musician all my life and I'll tell you right now what seperates the really good players from everyone else is PRACTICE, not gadgets.

I think probably the marketing division staged a successful coup over at Gibson.

The gadget freaks are gonna love this though, so I can't blame Gibson for trying a new way to bring in some cash.

Someone posting something about the "purists... blah blah blah blah"

Excuse me? Purists my *ss.

There's a real reason that the best guitarists lust and drool over 90 year old technology: It is because it is impossible for solid state electronics, no matter how tweaked, sampled and modified, to duplicate the odd harmonics the come by nature out of the plasma in a hot vacuum tube.

Musicians care about *sound* and nothing else. If the best sound came out of a old transistor radio running FreeBSD modified with DDR ram and put in a hollowed out cardboard box, they would use that.

I'm a violinist. Once upon a time I thought that all the hoopla surrounding Strat instruments was just complete BS and that with the right combo of tech, lutherian technique and materials, that the sound could be reproduced. And then I heard one in person.

Perhaps another problem is that lots of *engineers* work for the instrument manufacturers, and they stare at an oscilloscope hooked up to a tube and think "it can't be so hard to reproduce that" as well as "I need to do something new around here to keep my job!"

Now I have heard some solid state amps that sound pretty good. But they still don't come close to tubes, even after all these years (40+?) of trying.

And if you personally cannot hear the difference, might I suggest you work on training your ear a bit better? The difference is glaring to folks with well trained musical ears.

Re:nuts

[io333]

oh heck, that's gonna be modded off topic. it was supposed to be in reply to a different post.

Re:nuts

[stereoroid]

On a slightly pedantic note (?): it's the even harmonics (2f, 4f...) that are most prized in vintage tube guitar sounds. Odd harmonics (3f, 5f...) are easily found whereever there is clipping. This is the difference between Jimmy Page and Robert Fripp - Crunch vs Fuzz, Even vs Odd harmonics. Personally, I don't want to sound like any well-known guitarist, so these "amp emulation" systems have little interest to me.

Re:nuts

[torpor]

I, likewise, have been a musician for a long time, and currently working in this sort of industry at Access.

Personally, I totally agree with you on the performance vs. gimmick issue. I think there's no fact more telling than the mere musician statistic: there are a lot of people making music.

It's better, live. If Gibson can give a better experience - functionally, what's different about protocol types to a guitarist if he's *still* plugging a cable in, either way?

I haven't heard a better 'sound' over Gibsons magic. I only see easier recording potential, and thus: easier editing.

From my current standpoint, editing is crap. Protools gave us Britney Spears.

It's time for performance to reign supreme again. Does CAT5 give that, somehow?

Re:nuts

[Mr.Coffee]

...From my current standpoint, editing is crap. Protools gave us Britney Spears...

record execs, song writers, ed mcmann, and a vocal Harmonizer gave us Britney Spears. Pro tools was just the medium. that's like saying the internet brought us porn. porn was around waay before the internet. so were pop stars and boy bands around before pro tools (remember new kids on the block and debbie gibson?)

pro tools just made it easier for everybody to do what they wanted to with their music. and it wasn't a magical solution, either: recording studios have been moving away from tape for awhile now. pro tools is just the industry leader.

Re:nuts

[TeknoHog]

> There's a real reason that the best guitarists lust and drool over 90 year old technology: It is because it is impossible for solid state electronics, no matter how tweaked, sampled and modified, to duplicate the odd harmonics the come by nature out of the plasma in a hot vacuum tube.

Pardon the nitpick, but it's actually the even harmonics that sound nice. Transistor amplifiers have much lower levels of harmonic distortion, but because they produce odd harmonics, they sound crap. When the signal reaches the saturation level of the amplifier, a solid-state amp makes a sharp cutoff, but a tube amp makes it more round. It's something you can clearly see with an oscilloscope.

This is not something inherent in transistors or tubes; it comes from the way these components are wired together to form amplifier stages. I'm not sure if it's possible to build an even-harmonic transistor amp, though.

Re:nuts

[Sosarian]

> I'm a violinist. Once upon a time I thought that all the hoopla surrounding Strat instruments was
> just complete BS and that with the right combo of tech, lutherian technique and materials, that the
> sound could be reproduced. And then I heard one in person.

I don't know if you're refering to Stradivarius violins, but I just thought that I would pass along an article about the "Nagyvarius". The basics are this, Stradivarius may or may not have been a genius violin maker, but either way his violins are amazing, and reproducable. The other argument is that he was a great violin maker that through a combination of materials, luck and geographic location. Unfortunately whatever secret he may have possessed died with his sons, whose deaths followed shortly after their father.

In search of the Stradivarius Secret

Re:d/a converters.

[buswolley]

also the analog to digital converters would have to be really good. High quality digital studios a good ten thousand dollars per channel for d/a converters. I doubt the average guitarist will spend an extra ten thousand dollars for their guitar just to maintain this quality. So. these guitars will be outfitted with cheap converters, destroying any chance for quality sound. Cheap converters add many artifacts to appear that are not musical. analog does of course add artifacts of their own, but these artifacts tend to be more musical and pleasing to our ear. ie:tube amps create a pleasing distortion when pushed sufficiently by the amp. But the digital artifacts are generally displeasing. physiologicaly. Also cheap converters have greater problems with things like jitter. Jitter is a phenomenom that occurs when the a/d converter is not perfectly in sync with the "system clock". this also causes artifacts to appear. I'd reccommend you let the studio do the d/a converting, as they probably invested some money into this very important component in digital recording. Guitars like this will not improve the quality of recordings for the poor artist, just when it is becoming apparent that we as artists, must throw off the yoke of the recording industry and make our own recordings. own our own music, and distribut it ourselves. etc.

Gibson quote:

[servasius_jr]

"Generally speaking the music industry is very digital-averse," acknowledged Gibson Labs general manager Shri Arora, who helped design the core Magic technology. "But as the technology gets better, the cost-effectiveness is becoming a compelling force. In five to 10 years this [electric instruments and related equipment] will all be digital anyway."

Umm . . . yeah. So where do I get digital vacuum tubes?

You can argue, if you want, about whether analog actually does sound better than digital -- all of us purists will still be dragging around our out-dated, cost-ineffective, heavier-than-sh!t gear anyways until we're convinced it's been improved upon.

And as long as I can still fret a note, I'll be gutting cats myself for fiddle strings . . . .

Re:Gibson quote:

[198348726583297634]

Fiddles have no frets, cat intestines were never used for any part of the violin (sheep intestines were), and the strings haven't been made of gut in hundreds of years.

idiot

So where's it going to get power?

[oneiros27]

As the article states:

Magic conforms to the 802.3af spec for providing power over Ethernet.

Now, I admit that this doesn't mention if the 'Magic' system is providing power, or receiving power, but well, something's getting power over the cable. I don't know how you're going to pull that off with wireless.

Re:So where's it going to get power?

[beowulfcluster]

Guitars with active pickups today get their power from batteries in a cavity in the guitar. Don't know how much power this thing will need but a similar solution is probably not out of the question.

Re:So where's it going to get power?

[SignoffTheSourcerer]

Ever heard about phantom power? That's been around for as long as capacitive mics (since the 70s atleast).

Re:So where's it going to get power?

[beowulfcluster]

True, but phantom power over the wireless the parent spoke of might not work so well(?).

line6 guitar...

[Anonymous Coward]

what about line6's Variax. Doesn't it have an rj45 port on it?

Obligatory "Beowulf cluster" comment...

[Anonymous Coward]

*ponders a beowulf cluster of these could do*

Re:d/a converters.

[buswolley]

several mistakes in my post. like:I'd reccommend you let the studio do the d/a converting, as they probably invested some money into this very important component in digital recording

should read as:I'd reccommend you let the studio do the a/d converting.

Shhhh. . .

[D iz a n k Meister]

Music didn't start, nor shall it stop, with the electric guitar.

Don't tell people that. Especially vintage gear freaks. I think they will have a harder time dealing with that reality(rock n' roll is dead) than creationists have dealing with the reality that the Earth is several billion years old(not several thousand).

Re:Shhhh. . .

[Moofie]

I hear what you're saying, but I don't think rock n' roll is any deader than baroque music is. I still like both. I also like Blue Man Group, Lamb, Portishead, Parliament Funkadelic....

There is room on this earth for so much cool music, I don't understand why one has to be at the expense of the other. I mean, it's not like five companies own all avenues for music distribution, and do their very best to make sure we don't hear anything else.

Oh, wait...

Let's wait and see, it's Gibson after all

[ebusinessmedia1]

First, I wish them well, but the current Gibson management has a history of failed and ill-supported attempts to make new technology work in the music industry.

Also, Gibson's shotgun-like litigious actions within the music industry within the past decade have caused the music industry to put little faith in its supporting a technology standard of *any* kind. The past actions of its current management will make music instrument manufacturers think twice (or more)before they adopt or even license Gibson technology.

Some history:

1) Gibson completely blew their opportunity as once-owners of the Oberheim name (which they inherited as part of a purchase). Poorly-defined and ill-marketed products killed the Oberheim brand; meddling by ownership didn't help...(recently the Oberheim name returned to its rightful owner, Tom Oberheim, who is nicely rebuilding the brand).

2) Gibson bought Zeta Violin (a very innovative manufacturer of electronic violins and basses), and with it the services of the gifted engineer who who started Zeta. They had this engineer cobble together a MIDI substitute called ZIPPY. This at a time when MIDI was just getting a head of steam up. Gibson's ownership wanted to replace MIDI and collect license fees. Forget about helping to nurse a just-getting-off-the-ground standard, or MIDI). Talk about bad timing. ZIPPY died, and the engineer had a hand in regaining Zeta (a fine company these days).

3) Next was Gibson's infamous purchase of Opcode Systems, a few years back. Opcode was a primary manufacturer of music software and hardware at the time - one of the best. They created the OMS standard, which the Mac music community was widely dependent on. They promised Opcode's then-owner an opportunity to start a little R&D Group and come up with a few new things. The whole thing died in an acrimonious lawsuit, and in the offing, Gibson destroyed Opcode, and OMS. What a waste.

4) Unrelated to technology (at least computer technology) is Gibson's recent purchase of the once-renowned Baldwin Piano Company. Gibson has chosen to take even this famous music industry name, and make it a laughingstock. At this year's NAMM (National Association of Music Manufacturers) show they presented Baldwin pianos in gaudy, bright colors with graffiti-like drawings on them (for instance, one bright yellow grand had a desert scene painted on it with a Hummer riding across the desert floor in the the background - unbelievable!). I can see doing this to one piano, but the whole damn line? The instruments are laughable, and a blight on the once-reknowned Baldwin name.

5)Gibson is run like a personal playpen and funhouse by current management, who is out of touch with market reality (and a few others); however, Gibson has good, dedicated people. For their sake I hope this technology cathes on.

6)Other companies will be coming forward with technologies like this, and others. Let's wait and see if Gibson maintains its consistency in things having to do with technology, and screws this one up.

Certainly, if this technology did catch on, *any* music instrument manufacturer licensing it would have to be *very* wary of Gibson's current management's penchant to sue fast and hard for any real or even (and especially) perceived violation of licensing or other agreements. This company is vulture-like when it comes to the law. Gibson is a great example of a company who is purchased by a management with a few crazy ideas and a lot of money. They come in, buy a well-established company with good products and dedicated peopl,e and make it a personal plaything. Gibson, and the music industry deserve better.

Re:Let's wait and see, it's Gibson after all

[schatten]

Don't forget, they also aquired Tobias Basses - Michael Tobias' SoCal 5 person operation - and they thought they'd continue with the name, with cheaper components and where did that go? They ran it into the ground.

I too wish them luck, but not sure how it will stick with the 'classic sounds' that every loves with analogs and tubes.

Re:Let's wait and see, it's Gibson after all

[Mr.Coffee]

...3) Next was Gibson's infamous purchase of Opcode Systems, a few years back. Opcode was a primary manufacturer of music software and hardware at the time - one of the best. They created the OMS standard, which the Mac music community was widely dependent on. They promised Opcode's then-owner an opportunity to start a little R&D Group and come up with a few new things. The whole thing died in an acrimonious lawsuit, and in the offing, Gibson destroyed Opcode, and OMS. What a waste...

to my knowledge, opcode systems is still alive and kicking, and i believe they are making hardware again. i put pro tools free on my g3 laptop yesterday, and OMS (open music system) came right along with it. as well as some opcode plugins for pt free.

Re:Let's wait and see, it's Gibson after all

[AnalogDiehard]

Gibson is run by a pointy-haired technohick CEO named Henry Juszkiewicz. If you read anything about him, read about the Oberheim debacle to get a glimpse on his poor management style and scavenger tactics of extorting IP from technology companies. Every man that has ever entered into a technology partnership with Juszkeiwicz have all been sued by him. Even law firms under retainer for Gibson have been sued by Juszkeiwicz. He openly refuses to pay engineers and programmers more than $25/hour and refuses to offer bonuses/raises yet he brags about retaining the top law firms in town. More info on Gibson here.

Almost everyone in the music industry is well aware of Henry Juszkiewicz's history and do not put any faith in his gee-whiz high tech products. He is quickly becoming the laughingstock of the music business.

Re:Let's wait and see, it's Gibson after all

[MamasGun]

Oddly enough, some of the best products Gibson has made recently has come out of their low-end line...we've got two Epiphone guitars here, a TV-Yellow LP Junior, and a "Mo-Baby" which is a semi-hollow guitar shaped like a Moderne with a Pignose-stylee amp inside. Both have really amazing sound when they're plugged in, and the "Mo-Baby" even sounds pretty damn good with the internal amp.

My husband teaches music, and he will often just bring the "Mo-Baby" to lessons...easier than lugging an amp.

At the time we grabbed those guitars, we spent a lot of time with other guitars in the store. Amazingly enough, the more expensive stuff didn't sound so hot next to them. I don't know what Epiphone is doing in their Korean and Chinese plants, but they are putting out some good guitars that just happen to be inexpensive too. Maybe the New Regime hasn't made it to Gibson's offshore plants yet.

DRM?

[freaker_TuC]

Hope they won't embed DRM in these Guitars ...
would sound stupid not?

Re:DRM?

[freaker_TuC]

Next time I'll add a disclaimer "this is a joke, laugh with it" ... because people take this too serious seems to be :)

Off Topic

[L3WKW4RM]

Q: How do you get a bassist off your porch?

A: Pay him for the pizza!

(...sorry)

Re:Off Topic

[Gojira Shipi-Taro]

You misspelled "drummer".

Re:Off Topic

[4string]

Q: How can you tell if the drum riser is level? A: There's drool running out of both sides of the drummers mouth!

Re:Off Topic

[squarefish]

another one:

What's a stripper do to her asshole before she goes to work?

She drops him off at band practice.

Re:Off Topic

[edbarrett]

How many drummers does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they have machines to do that now.

Re:Off Topic

[UncleGizmo]

...And how do you know a singer is at your front door?

He can't find the key, and he doesn't know when to come in.

(bump ba dump)

Re:Off Topic

[kevcol]

Q: How do you get a guitar player to turn his volume down?

A: Put sheet music in front of him.

Re:Off Topic

[cayenne8]

What's the last thing the drummer said before leaving the band??----"Hey, guys, I've got some songs......"

Re:Off Topic

[Anonymous Coward]

No, no, it goes like this.

Q: What do you call a drummer without a girlfriend?

A: Homeless.

Re:Off Topic

[masterkool]

to ammend the drummer jokes....

Q. Hey, did you hear about the drummer who graduated fromhigh school?

A. No.

Q. Neither did I.

But using regular CAT 5 cable?

[Cap'n Crax]

I don't think it would stand up to on-stage use. The bending of the cable (and stepping on it, etc..) would likely break some wires. And if they are meaning to use regular plastic RJ-45 connectors, I just don't see it. A big metal 1/4" plug is much more sturdy. I can just imagine RJ-45's getting yanked out and broken right and left. And according to the article, this does seem to be their plan, as it mentions using cable bought from computer stores. I'm not sure that this aspect of it has been completely thought through...

Re:But using regular CAT 5 cable?

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess you haven't seen these.

Stratocaster violin

[Anonymous Coward]

I didn't know Fender made violins. Maybe you meant a Strad.

Re:Stratocaster violin

[ShavenYak]

Actually, Fender does make violins. Still, I think you're right that the parent poster meant Stradivarius.

Re:a/d converters.

[buswolley]

oh and i meant a/d converters in the subject header. my apologies for the parent

point-to-point

[TheSHAD0W]

A lot of people were complaining about latency in wireless network connections. Does anyone make a short-range, low-latency, Ethernet bridge? Something made for point-to-point communications will be a lot better for musical applications than trying to hook the guitar into 802.11b or Bluetooth.

Especially knowing how the music industry drives technology, I suspect we'll be seeing these sorts of links in the near future.

Hmm. Infrared LEDs on the guitar strap?

Guitarists hate digital

[XJoshX]

Although I really hope this does well, I know there will be a large percentage of "diehards" who will never accept any sort of progress in guitar technology. Look through review sites like harmony-central and you will see many people who are very similar to extreme audiophiles in their oddities. They think that anything digital will sound like shit and they'll never change their mind.

As far me, I'm really interested to see how this goes. With all the noise introduced in analog effects pedals the business has been needing something like this just to get a clear signal.

Re:Guitarists hate digital

[sakusha]

Well count me in as an electric guitar luddite. I thought it was ironic that the article mentioned the '57 Les Paul, because I used to own one. Back in the 70s, I saw the lead guitarist from Uriah Heep strumming a '56 Les Paul Jr.. with a handfull of tire chains. Try that with your expensive computerized guitar!
Anyway, part of the point of electric guitars are that they are noisy, and that's part of the whole sound. I heard one eminent musicologist declare, "music is just pure tone plus noise, and each genre expresses one particular noise preference." Even a virtuoso like Segovia would sound like crap on a guitar with no noise in the signal.

Re:Guitarists hate digital

[srichman]

I am a guitarist who "hates digital," but not this kind of digital. I buy analog effects, amps, and synths because I appreciate the sound they create. I feel that the sound of a screaming analog filter or an overdriven tube amp is not something that has been reproduced accurately in the digital world. I find these analog sounds quite desirable.

However, the "sound" that an audio cable imparts to music (in the form of hum and interference) is not something I find desirable. In this case, the digital version is superior to the analog version.

I'm sure there are a few extreme-odd-audiophile-luddite musicians who don't want any analog to digital conversion happenning at all between their instrument and their ears. This, of course, means that they can't put their music on compact disc, which is the de facto music distribution standard (or at least was). I find this attitude wholly unreasonable and impractical. Musicians who eschew the DAT, the mp3, and the compact disc must, in my estimation, be in the minority.

Most musicians, I think, are like me. I might prefer a quirky old tape delay or analog phaser to their digital equivalents, but, at the end of the day, I know my music gets fed into my computer at 24bit-96kHz digital. I'm an analog fan, but not a snob; I switch to digital when it's better/more practical.

Re:Guitarists hate digital

[Anonymous Coward]

It is amazing how much progress has been made with digital amp modeling during the past five or so years. Line 6 (http://www.line6.com) is regarded as the head of the pack, with their POD line of amp modelers. You can simply dial in the amp you want -- everything from a Fender Twin to a Mesa Dual Recitfier -- and immediately get your sound, including selectable speaker and cabinet simulation. And most of the simulations sound very convincing.

However, unless you're going for a specific, synthetic guitar sound (e.g. the heavy Fear Factory sound), the amp modelers still fall short of a real miked up speaker cabinet / tube amp combo. But for most people this is unrealistic -- trucking one of these huge 4 x 12 cabs around, taking the time to get a sound, miking it up right and then turning it up until it knocks your neighbor's house down is impractical. The amp modelers are great for cranking out quick demos with 90% of the sound of a real amp, and because most have digital out they can be plugged right into a modern digital console or computer. And yes, many records these days are actually cut using amp modelers -- but most experienced guitar players will tell you that there's a lot of magic in that 10%.

Re:Guitarists hate digital

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't hate digital - I'm just not interested in it for the production of sound.

Granted, I play a nylon-string classical (with all the corresponding irritating fingernail maintenance), but taking your instrument-> ADC-> computer system-> DAC->stereo-> speakers creates too much of a lengthy, remote chain for my taste.

Pickup->amp->speakers. Direct, no funny sampling or crazy processing needed. Heck, you can get away with a magnet, a coil of wire, and a single vacuum tube. Best of all is straight acoustic, but I'll concede the need for my electric brethren to crank it up :)

High-res digital sampling (24-bit, 96 kHz, for example) has its place in recording, splicing, mixing, and so forth, but for straight amplification it's needlessly complicated.

Re:Guitarists hate digital

[wunderhorn1]

I think you're a little confused. The pickups and amplifiers will still be analog, and that's where guitarists want their noise to come from. All Gibson is doing is digitizing the sound that comes from the pickups and sending it to the amp where it is changed back to analog. There's nothing stopping the guitar from digitizing the noisiest pick scrapes or muted strings. The only noise lost would be the hum from bad cable connections, the kind of noise guitarists avoid.

Also, I think the tire chains act was probably one of the few times Uriah Heep showed any kind of originality...

Re:Guitarists hate digital

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem, as I see it, is that if you are cat5 out of the instrument, you can't get the signal into the analog effects chain without more D to A (and A to D). This is what using digital to eliminate cable noise implies.

For my rig: digital out of the bass => d to a into the analog effects chain (let's ignore the connections between the effects for simplicity, they're short lengths of cable anyway) => a to d for the run to the tube amp => d to a to get the signal into the amp...and it all needs to be done with dynamic range (and control thereof) so I can overdrive the 12AX7s in the amp to the degree I want (or don't want) at any given moment.

Keep in mind that all this has to work reliabily in an on-stage environment... Forget it, the noise reduction can't be worth all that.

Why don't people read the articals?

[autopr0n]

but using a 'Magic' Les Paul would force you entirely into the digital domain

If you read the fucking artical, you'd see that the Guitar will also have anlog pickups and outputs. It won't force you to do shit.

musical locks?

[MikeFM]

Just thinking of that great genius of our time - Willy Wonka - and thinking of musical locks. Could you use something like this to take a fingerprint of the player so that you could encrypt or sign files? It sounds like it'll have a high-quality stream so you could possibly get a better sample than you could get from a cd or recording? It'd be interesting to see a digital music file with a musical signature that only the original artist can duplicate.

Famous last words

[m00nun1t]

Quotes from the article by "Art Thompson, a senior editor of GuitarPlayer magazine":

...The mainstream guitar player doesn't have the slightest interest in this...

...but he pointed to the unfulfilled promise of such earlier digital-music revolutions as the musical instrument digital interface (MIDI) format. Most interest in digital technology today is limited to small experiments, conducted among artists and consumers, with systems that model effects...

Doesn't this just sound like one of those famous quotes waiting to be reused over and over again in 20 years time - like the "there is a total world market for 5 computers" and "rock and roll is a fad, Mr.Epstein".
(Please don't reply with the Bill Gates 640K quote - he never said that)

Re:Famous last words

[Anonymous Coward]

Sort of like "No Commercial Potential"...

Re:Famous last words

[proj_2501]

It sounds like someone reporting on an old quote. MIDI is only used for small experiments? Then what's techno?

Gibson has re-announced this technology three times with no product. Meanwhile, Yamaha's mLan is actually SHIPPING.

Re:Famous last words

[poot_rootbeer]

but he pointed to the unfulfilled promise of such earlier digital-music revolutions as the musical instrument digital interface (MIDI) format.

Unfulfilled promise??? The last 20 years of dance music would not have been possible without MIDI.

If anything in music technology is due for an update, it's the MIDI standard. The protocol is still the same as it was when it was created in the early '80s -- serial communications have gotten extremely fast elsewhere, but MIDI devices are still limited to something like 20kbps over a current loop.

I'd love to see digital instrument makers develop a standard for exchanging MIDI event data over FireWire or Bluetooth or some similar modern protocol. But not audio signals. I'm hardly a purist, but the longer an instrument signal stays in the analog domain, the better.

sounds like you're just boosting your imago

[Anonymous Coward]

"i'm no friggin gadgeteer, i'll use ONLY vintage equipment because those sound good!"

who cares what eq you use, just play that damn guitar and if you can do it without fetching out 10 grands & your momma, then all the better. It's making me sick to hear that whine about equipment when you can make music clapping your bare hands or whistling or singing. No stupid overly expensive junk.

Re:sounds like you're just boosting your imago

[Anonymous Coward]

I take it you're a musician? There is a difference between a karaoke singer and Placido Domingo. There is a reason concert violinists will play instruments that are older than most american cities. There is a reason why pianists will play Steinway. There is a reason guitar players will save every penny for a martin or a santa cruz. I really don't think you know what that reason is, but here's hoping for a miracle.

Re:sounds like you're just boosting your imago

[Anonymous Coward]

I take it you're a musician? There is a difference between a karaoke singer and Placido Domingo. There is a reason concert violinists will play instruments that are older than most american cities. There is a reason why pianists will play Steinway. There is a reason guitar players will save every penny for a martin or a santa cruz. I really don't think you know what that reason is, but here's hoping for a miracle.

The reason is: Vanity.

There is no difference if Placido is at the karaoke bar with me, singing, "So Happy Together"

So, since you aren't one of those concert people you hold in such high regard, do shut up. They probably don't need an idiot like you defending them.

Re:sounds like you're just boosting your imago

[tcr]

I take it you're a musician?

I take it you're not...

Clapton playing a $99 guitar would sound like... Clapton.

If you played one of his Strats, you'd sound like...you.

It's something of a truism in guitar circles, but It's All In The Fingers.

Re:sounds like you're just boosting your imago

[io333]

Sorry that was a typo. I meant to type Strad, as in Stradivarius, and not strat as in stratocaster. I dare say that if I were to play a violin made by Stradivarius I would sound very different.

Re:sounds like you're just boosting your imago

[ShavenYak]

Clapton playing a $99 guitar would sound like... Clapton.

Except that he'd be saying things like, "Damn, this neck sucks!" and "What retard adjusted this bridge?" the whole time.

BSOD

[LittleBigLui]

blazing sound of deafness

vacuum tubes my ass

[Anonymous Coward]

poor excuses for poor composing and/or playing skills. If you can't do it with dirt cheap eq, then with all the gibsons and tubes in the world you can't do it either.

either you play good or you don't, tubes won't help you there.

don't know much about converters

[Anonymous Coward]

but with all that shit oozing from big labels, I'd say converters is their least serious problem. and jitter, yes jitter must be the reason why backdoor boys, virgin blondecunts and other faggots make me sick.

ATTN: Slashdot Trolls

[Tuxinatorium]

How do you do the "wide" posts? I've been attempting to duplicate Klerk's recent one, but it looks like they've adapted already.

I Dont Believe It

[Anonymous Coward]

As a previous founding member of the GMICS/MAGIC group (which was comprised of 3 Opcode Systems Employees after gibson closed down Opcode) and an ex-employee of gibson, I can honestly say that gibson is one of the cheapest dishonest companies I have ever worked.

The only thing I learned was that having a very young very inmature 'Manager' is less than ideal in a small isolated group. He was also quite dishonest, dissing henry the ceo whenever he was not listening, but kissing butt otherwise.

I took a look at the website and it looks strangly similar to the demo board made 4-5 years ago, a BabySharc, 100 MBit, pic chip, and a few codecs. I guess it took that long to debug the hardware. That group was very incompetent.

If they were smart they would use gigibit ethernet which has enough bandwidth to support the channels required for henry's dream. But I guess that would take that group another 25 years.

I wonder if it still uses my pic program and the sharc os (called GROS for Gibson Realtime OS)

I do have a fond memory of buying a carvin from www.carvin.com while employed at gibson, that guitar rocks, employee discounts sucked.

That and the GIFF that was passed around email, it was that gibson logo, the one with the pic and the ribbon on the bottom saying 'Musical Instuments", some employee spent the time to seamlessly replace the text with "Hates You" this is how I remember my time at gibson.

A Good Reason Not to go Wireless

[orange_ice]

There's one very good reason to choose cat5 over wireless- no matter what protocol you use, your wireless guitar would be working at a radio frequency that can be duplicated, and therefor messed with. One of the easiest to mess up would be 802.11b- it runs at the same frequency as many microwaves, cordless phones and other appliances. Can you imagine being a guitarist on stage at a show at a small venue, and all of a sudden the owner of the place gets a phone call that effectively stops the show? Other protocols share frequencies with less other things, but can still be interrupted easily by anyone who really wants to sabotage a show.

Re:A Good Reason Not to go Wireless

[HawkingMattress]

Can you imagine being a guitarist on stage at a show at a small venue, and all of a sudden the owner of the place gets a phone call that effectively stops the show? Hey that would be an homage to Spinal Tap you clueless insensitive clod !

i'd like to get one

[Anonymous Coward]

and nickname it 'William' (or possibly 'Wild Bill')

an Analogue nut on Slashdot. Science Vs Art?

[jago25_98]

The drummer won't keep pace, the bassist has nothing to pong to and the singer has a virus. Groupies :/

Course, got to try it.

I don't feel most people really appreciate what analogue is about in terms of it's life and in terms of sound.

For me I prefer analogue sometimes because when an error is introduced it can be beneficial.
For me, analogue is Art and Digital is Reason. Analogue = life and digital = man made.

Science and Slashdotters have to understand that in Art inaccuracy and error, -can- be a good thing.

When interferance is introduced from Guitar -> LP -> analogue cable -> listener, that error is coming from the real world + it isn't fatal to the sound. In fact, I like it.

The unfortunate thing about analogue is that it takes so long to get to know it.

* Analogue error is more useful than digital error * ?

I intend to go digital though because it's condusive to the rest of my setup, specifically my computer. Can't wait to try this stuff out!

[OT] MIDI over Ethernet - DMIDI

[philkerr]

Slightly off topic but relevant to the story. DMIDI is a distributed networked MIDI protocol and is an emerging IEEE standard. It's currently undergoing a revision moving it from being IP based to Ethernet based and the new applications should be releasable in a few weeks (the Linux/ALSA app was finished yesterday and is now being tested).

The original UDP version, from a performance timing perspective, was tight and the network was transparent to musicians. The Ethernet version seems to be even tighter!

http://www.dmidi.org

Re:[OT] MIDI over Ethernet - DMIDI

[Anonymous Coward]

This is NOT off-topic. If Gibson can somehow or another get this to work (and with some of the comments here enough doubt has entered the picture to suggest this is vaporware.)any MAGIC-equipped instrument could be used as a DMIDI controller. Way cool. This also will obviate the need for those crappy USB-to-MIDI boxes on newer computers not equipped with either Mac serial ports or PC game ports. Mod this the hell up.

Pretty dumb....

[Anonymous Coward]

I am still in the air on this one. I can't figure out whether this is "the" stupedest thing I've ever F'in heard, or just one of the stupedest things I've ever F'in heard. The movement within the Guitar/amp community is one of regression. Vintage amp clones are currently the most highly regarded ( Vox AC/30's, Bassmans, and ole 1970's JMP's).

I do take comfort that this may be the final nail in the coffin for Gibson. It has been over a decade since they last produced a decent guitar. Paying $2000 for a piece of wood that was made by a machine strikes me as odd. Paying $2000 for a piece of wood that won't work with the majority of amps in the world strikes me as being insane.

For tube amp reference, I recommend www.ampage.org .

Thank you for your time,
Anon

Re:Wrong... Ugghhh not fiber!

[Xuther]

Using professional-grade glass optical fiber

I've played guitar on and off since early high school, started in our jazz band my sophomore year, and one of the biggest problems I had before I got my nady wireless was that people were tripping over cables or not watching where they were putting their music stands down. Not sure how much stress a firewire cable using fiber optics can take, but I know for a fact that my copper cables got stretched and bent and kinked all the time.

Hey Michael...

[Anonymous Coward]

...YOU'RE A JERK!

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Electromagnetic interference with wireless?

[kwoo]

If we are going digital, wouldn't it make far more sense with built in wireless lan instead? The argument for those pesky cables has been the analog sound, I'd think most people would be hardpressed to find problems with wireless vs Cat5 these days.

One problem (or maybe not -- I defer to those who know wireless far better than I) would be the magnetic interference from the pickups on the guitar itself. Wouldn't that do a number on broadcast quality?

Sorry everyone...

[PasteEater]

but this is kinda crappy. As someone who is in a legit band who actually plays (lots of) shows, this sure sounds like a bad idea. I don't think my Marshall has an "interface" for this. I especially like this...

"It will also simplify stage and studio setup, substituting low-cost Category 5 cables that can be bought at a local computer store for the thick, expensive analog cables used today."

Yeah, those Cat5 cables are WAY less expensive. LOL! Yeah, if you want to play your guitar six feet or less away from your amp.

This is for suckers. It's almost laughable. Why in the world would you want your guitar to interface with your computer? Recording? Yeah, there's better ways to do that already, believe me.

And I just have to mention again... you need to plug that $2,400 Gibson into something when you are on stage. Otherwise, no one is going to be able to hear you.

latency

[jago25_98]

I can see latency remaining an issue. A musician can detect something like 10ms delays.

Will equipment be rated by delay to process the sound signal?

Re:latency

[kinaole]

please just give me my telecaster and music man combo amp .... it is all i need for small clubs ... no peddles, just fingers

aloha,
dave

Re:latency

[Anonymous Coward]

Sound travels less than 11 feet in 10ms.

Man o' Man!

[Anonymous Coward]

Imagine a beowulf cluster of these!

MaGIC =

[Cunk]

"Media-accelerated Global Information Carrier"?

This has to be one of the worst over-contrived acronymns I've seen in a while. I can see a conference room of Gibson execs thumbing through stacks of computer magazines looking for snazzy words to match the neato acronymn someone came up with.

Analogue Home Recording

[jago25_98]

I plug my guitar in. It hums like hell due to:-

- Interference from monitor (this is worst so I turn monitor off)
- interference from power outlet it's plugged into
- lights (both types, dimmer switches make worse)
- TV
- Radio
- X10 based intercom

Can I eliminate all the sources of interference?

Yes; go outside with my acoustic and minidisc.

But that makes a gap between
Guitar + Computer.

My questions to Slashdotters:-

- Would a PowerSupply filter do the job? I'm going to need a least 5 outlets aren't I?

- If recording from a Mic how do I listen to what I have already recorded over headphones, whilst recording from the Mic with the recorded sound effected in real time with output back to headphones?

Linux and Windows available, cheapo SB Live soundcard but hacked ASIO low latency drivers = nightmare and ALSA = complex.

Re:Analogue Home Recording

[deppe]

If you're using a single coil pickup guitar like a Fender Strat, the only thing you can do is place the 5-way selector in the neck+middle or middle+bridge positions to simulate a humbucking effect, that reduces the noise to acceptable levels. :)

For a humbucking guitar, try shaving off the top treble with the tone control if it's still a problem.

Also, turn off everything you don't need while recording.. You hardly need to sit infront of the TV when laying down a track? :)

As for sound cards, if you're serious about recording at home spend the $300 on a good sound card. It's worth it.

These come with better AD/DA and have the monitoring options you need. Also, you get much lower latencies in Cubase etc. with these cards, down to a few ms, and you won't need the hacked ASIO drivers.

Is digital all that good...

[Anonymous Coward]

I know there are lotsa benefits with digital music. But still the quality of analog signals is something which should not be made completely obsolete. Recently in /. there was an interesting article (link below) about unintended aural consequences of digital compression. It raises an interesting issue about brain caliberation and such. It is a worthy subject to investigate before all traces of analog are removed. It would be something for poeple in Gibson to check out....

http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/12 /2 0/2029212&mode=thread
http://www.informatik.fh-ha mburg.de/~windle_c/Logo logie/MP3-Gefahr/MP3-risk.html

It goes...On and On and On ... Stop the madness!!!

[SuperGlue]

With these new "MAGIC" components included, I am curious on how long it will take for the following things to happen:

1. MS announcing an embedded version of NT for the Gibson.

2. The developers of products such as Soundforge,Cakewalk *& Protools get preloaded in package deals.

3. Slashdot features an article showing how easy it is to Mod the gibson with the latest Gforce card & monitor, mouse & keyboard connectors.

4. Not satisfied with only supplying the OS for the guitar, MS purchases Gibson.

5. All songs after this will begin with that happening and eternal windows startup wav file.

6. Slashdot post an article featuring the first Linux build for it.

7. A custom neck mod made with a slot for scanning your guitar tab in. (Embedded LED's light up green on frets and turn red on wrong notes)

8. The first Worm makes its rounds looking for predefined sequences and modifies the output based on it. (Ygnwie capped at 12 notes a minute or possibly the always unheard Church guitarist will have their volume adjusted to an audible level)

9. A small number of freshly networked guitar players attempting to break from the norms of society will stop speaking and develop a riff-only based form of communication. (Coincidentally following a profound LSD experience)

10. Actually the previous item may have already happened.

11. Terrorist are accused by homeland security as using embedded messages within a guitar which is reveiled when the correct 80's hair band solo is played.

12. Humans realize their diminishing fun while playing these devices and get back to their musical roots (Fart, Burping & beating on things with sticks)

13. Slashdot post its final article on the subject on the greatest MS Gibson guitar mod of all ...... Firewood

Almost Sober,
SuperGlueBooger

'Original' 3O year-old technology?!

[melonman]

It is because it is impossible for solid state electronics, no matter how tweaked, sampled and modified, to duplicate the odd harmonics the come by nature out of the plasma in a hot vacuum tube.

The 'natural' sound of the electric guitar was a quirk of the technology that was around at the time. And a lot of people hated it, compared to the 'natural' sound of acoustic instruments, most of which had only been around in their current compromised scale form for a few hundred years. When the compromised scale was introduced, in order to make transposition and keyboard instruments possible, I'm sure the purists said that the compromise was just that, and that nothing that would ever replace a flute that only plays in E flat.

If Gibson had gone digital from day one, people would be posting about how now analogue system, however tweaked, can never reproduce the clean precision of digital. Or something. And in 30 years' time, when someone comes up with another way of doing music, all the digital 'purists' will bang on about how nothing can approach the 'natural' beauty of a DX-7...

You ear get used to whatever sounds you feed it within reason. If you don't believe me, try listening to some Indian music, for example. To a Western ear, it is all out of tune, before we get on to the melodic component, but half a billion Indians would disagree...

Re:'Original' 3O year-old technology?!

[teamhasnoi]

Much like the keyclick on a B3 organ - Hammond tried for years to engineer it out; when the jazz musicians of the day heard it, they loved the sharp, percussive attack. The 'click' was left alone, and organs that produced a pronounced one were sought after for recording.

I guess for live performance, this guitar system would violate the idea of KISS. I used to play live with a board full of pedals and wireless system. When my amp died before a gig WAY out of town, I went and bought a little 150w godawful loud Solid State Crate amp. When I got back, someone had spilled beer on my pedals. grrr. I did that show with the Crate and channel footswitch.

I immediately missed the 'tube' sound of my good ol' Ampeg, but I did realize that the less gear I carried, the more fun I had and better-sounding I was. I paid more attention to what I was playing. Less is More became my mantra.

I did the rest of the shows with a Mesa-Boogie, a cord, and my guitar. It kicked ass. ;)

Anyone need a 150w Solid State Crate?

Re:'Original' 3O year-old technology?!

[ShavenYak]

I guess for live performance, this guitar system would violate the idea of KISS.

But I didn't think KISS performed live anymore!

hmm...

[Anonymous Coward]

>There is a reason why pianists will play Steinway.

Actually, Real Pianists(tm) would rather play Bösendorfer. ;)

tubes from an engineering standpoint

[lingqi]

first of all, IANA (I am not ancient) so my knowledge on this might be rusty. correct me if anybody knows better.

Now, here are some reasons why tubes might sound better:

first of all let's start with some tube basics: you heat a plate (cathod) and electrons jump off it. the electrons pass through a grid, and gets obsorbed at another plate (anode). You can vary the voltage on the grid and control how much eletrons pass - hence the amplifying.

The difference between a tube amp and a FET amp is that tube amps have some insane amount of dynamic range that is very nice and linear. somethinge like 40V (or more, depending on the tube). It goes by the name "high voltage, low current."

Now, for the same power, FETS can't touch this range because most fets don't operate at that high voltage level - and if you push it then it will saturate / turn off and you won't be linear anymore.

So for the same power, FETS would go toward "low voltage, high current." This is cool and all, and theoretically if you stay within the linear region you are all good, right? wrong. All the EE books teaches you one thing that you never do in the real life - that is to assome a nice ground.

ground is never nice - especially when there is a lot of current, ground tend to float here and there - which would give you crap and distortions that we all know and love. Of course, throughout the years engineers (hey we don't have a life, after all) figured some ways around it - but AFAIK all of these are either 1) very expensive, and 2) not completely effective (usually it's both). (btw, one of these is to make as much of the system digital as possible.)

So... In the end, tube amps still reign. I heard that RCA made the best tubes, no confirmation on this, though.

Just for the few who thought "well when we get lots of superconductors then finally FET amps will be better!" That's not correct either. Unfortunately superconductors we know of are only good for no resistance at DC, and the ground does not play nice because of AC concerns.

So, there you have it. For the record I don't know any engineers who thought "oh yeah I can duplicate a tube response through other means," but they might have told their bosses shit like "I can make it damn close and you can't tell the difference" (which is usually a lie) so to keep their jobs.

And Tubes are considered solid-state. A tad fragile (there are stainless steel ones for the military, if anyone is interested), but still solid state last I checked...

Re:tubes from an engineering standpoint

[hackstraw]

1st off, the parent was backwards with the harmonics of a tube amp. Tubes have even harmonics, which are more, err, harmonious, than odd harmonics that are found in transistor amps.

From what I've read, tube sound better because of 1) the harmonic issue and 2) they don't clip when they distort 3) both transistors and tubes have distortion, its just that tubes are more pleasant distortion than transistors.

Plus tubes glow :)

Re:tubes from an engineering standpoint

[idioto]

one of the things that makes tubes sought after is the fact that they offer a natural means of compression. not data compression mind you, but reducing the dynamics of sound. what this means is the loud sounds become softer and the quiter sounds become more present in the mix. the compressed sound is what most music listeners like and are accustomed to. it's why when you listen to an old jazz record and then a new britney spears record, the latter is much hotter.

Annoying assumptions == Good for wire makers

[VWswing]

"But as the technology gets better, the cost-effectiveness is becoming a compelling force. In five to 10 years this [electric instruments and related equipment] will all be digital anyway."

You've got millions of guitar players who scoff
at the idea of a digital amp, which has been around for decades, and they think 5-10 years will be the conversion time? Eventually digital engineers will figure out their heads from their asses, and yeah it'll be a good idea, but I'll be in my late 40s by then..

My grandfather said to my father, about 40 years ago, "Son, digital electronics are for people who aren't intelligent enough to understand analog electronics". Sad, but true..

I paid $50 for my last guitar cable, and that
was a rather mid-quality cable imho.. Just think.. cable manufacturers will be ripping off guitarists charging $50 for a 10' ethernet cable that cost them $0.01 to make :)

If only I'd have gone into the scsi cable industry, I'd be a rich thief right now!

guitarists tend not to embrace technology

[shortscruffydave]

There have been a lot of attempts over the years to get guitarists to go hi-tech. Guitar synths never really gained the momentum that they their keyboard-driven cousins, and innovations like the SynthAxe, Step, etc. have pretty much fallen by the wayside. The guitar is a very 'organic' instrument, and that tends to reflect in the attitudes of people playing it. Personally, I'd be suprised if this technology becomes totally mainstream within the next 5 years.

Beware of the license

[Koyaanisqatsi]

From the article:

The spec (...) is now available online in a version 2.8 for a 10-year royalty-free license.

So what happens after ten years? Huge fees those manufacturers who can afford, lawsuits for everyone else? The fact that Magic is not a open standard may prevent it's wide acceptance.

yeah, and we'll jam over p2p...and use OFC Cat5

[RMH101]

PROBLEM? THIS IS SOLUTION. ARE YOU THERE? The expense of guitar cable? For chrissakes, how many do you buy? How much do you spend on them? How long before people start selling OFC, silver core, directional monster CAT5 cable to idiots with too much money who think it'll sound different? You can control your effects from your guitar? That's what your bloody feet are for, aren't you using your hands to play the thing? Fer chrissakes, people don't know how to *rock* anymore...

Digital

[tsikora]

I'm sure the 'Magic' will become a household name like the Roland guitar. When will these 'boneheads' learn. Digital = lifeless, dull, and clinical in the audio world.

Re:Digital

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope you aren't infecting this world with your own music, because what you just posted above is the biggest piece of garbage I've seen here in a long time. Your parents should have been shot for polluting the gene pool, really. All those bands you listen to? THEY WERE RECORDED DIGITALLY dumbass.

Latency and Music

[Anonymous Coward]

How would latency affect things that much? Presumably the amp/soundboard doesn't have much to say to the guitar. The above mentioned 11ms latency corresponds to the echo from a wall 6 feet away from an accoustic instrument. Are we thinking that musicians will be out of sync with each other over this?

Re:Latency and Music

[fishbowl]

"They" say that anything under 10 ms is "not noticeable"
but, as a musician, I must say it becomes unnerving and
makes playing impossibly difficult when it becomes noticeable.
Just playing solo is a challenge, playing ensemble is extremely
difficult if there is a time delay between your action and
the sound. You can fix this somewhat with a monitor, but
it's also a challenge to sync your recording. It's really
not fun to play live with a synth that is a 10th second
away from your key press, especially if you have gear with
all different latency.

Pedals?

[Zog The Undeniable]

Just wondering...how do pedals (flangers, wah-wahs) etc work on a digital Cat5 signal? You'd have to buy new versions of those too.

1. Tell everyone you've made an improved digital interface
2. Change the plug design from a big jack to RJ45
3. ???
4. Profit!

Re:Think of the possiblities when they add memory.

[Anonymous Coward]

The guitarist can play lead and rythm parts on the same guitar.

I already exists... It's called "delay"...

Life imitates art...

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks to the ever-advancing march of technology, soon, you truly will be able to "hack a gibson".

Thank you,
please tip your waitress.

OT question about transmission lines

[Anonymous Coward]

How can electric signals travel that slow? Does this have something to do with impedance?

Re:OT question about transmission lines

[gazbo]

Well, I'm no electrical engineer, but I think that it's safe to say you've got teh question the wrong way round. It's not "why do the signals travel so slow" but "why do they travel so fast".

In fact, electrons move slowly - there's no reason for them to travel at the speed of light, although for some reason people are led to believe that this is the case. Indeed, if Einstein is worth his salt, it would not be possible for an electron to move at the speed of light (they do have a mass).

In wires, electrons actually move at speeds measured in CMs per second (once again, I forget the actual figures, but it's either CMs or MMs). The reason that it appears so much faster is that, at the risk of oversimplifying things, the whole chain of electrons is shunted along when the first electrons move. As an analogy, imagine holding a long stick and moving it backwards and forwards. The actual movement at the other end of the stick would appear almost instantaneously, despite the fact that the stick would never actually be traveling more than say 20MPH.

It's the same with free electrons moving through a conductor - they may not move fast, but as electrons are passed to atoms, other free electrons in the vicinity are passed along - the net result is very fast data transmission.

That answers the question of why it goes so fast, and hopefully you see why that is the question, rather than why it goes so slow...

Re:OT question about transmission lines

[gazbo]

s/teh/the. I shall mutilate my arm by way of penance.

Slow down cowboy! I'm going to throw away your post because you dared to try and correct your heinous typo - as you know, this is against slashdot policy. If you think this is unfair, email grammar@slashdot.org with your MD5d IP address which is "FUCKOFF"

Re:When a really bad band comes on in concert.....

[Anonymous Coward]

Then, my friend, I will enjoy shooting your whale-esque bloated form of a geeky human being and chuckling as your corpse hits the ground.

I hate you annoying fairies and your false belief that you would be somewhat witty to do such a thing.

Only a matter of time..

[Scooter]

Lets get rid of the troublesome strings then, replace the operator with some software! Said operator can then concentrate fully on the strutting, and generally looking cool.

I can only imagine your traditional rock band roady will think of this - can you imagine:-

"Oi! Dave, make us a cuppa tea - I'm jus con-figging dur main switch"
"yeah alf a mo John, gotta unpack da amps and those er.. 'rooter' things you was talking about"
"Noice one, don't forget the bootp server"
"er... John.. what's this 'effernet' anyway?"
"not now John" (taps microphone) " Testing, testing..er I mean 'Ping 12.12.123.12'"

"No response from bass guitar"
"is it da cable?"
"Nah thas normal - he's bladdered, innit".

one millisecond of delay is accepable

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think Glenn Gould could clap at 60 beats per minute with 99.999% accuracy. If your accoustic guitar is more than 13 inches away from your ears you're already dealing with a 1ms+ delay between pluck and "I hear F#".

weezer and the pod

[srichman]

It's interesting to note that Weezer (certainly a guitar-driven band) has been touring with PODs instead of Marshalls lately, though they use real amps in the studio. PODs are certainly a lot more convenient to lug around than Marshall stacks, but, in that interview, the band's frontman makes the claim that they sound better in a messy arena environment.

Actually, I've recently heard Weezer has quit using the PODs live. Can anyone confirm or disconfirm this suspicion?

Re:weezer and the pod

[Anonymous Coward]

Pods are terrible. Nothing can beat the real thing. And, I wouldn't say Weezer is an expert on tone. They play bar chords and don't use much dynamics in their pop songs.

Re:weezer and the pod

[drix]

Weezer could have been reasonably called guitar driven for the Blue Album and maybe parts of Pinkerton. The riffs were quirky and inventive and they had some good, expressive solo work. They were never tone monsters but they had a nice mellow tone that suited their style. And what were they playing with? Why, Fender and Mesa Boogie, of course. Analog, it need not be said.

God knows what they playing with now, and honestly, who cares. Its all 5 chords and ditzy little arpeggios, boring. At the last two shows I saw them at, both in arenas at SF, it looked like they were playing big tube stacks and good old analog, but who cares. Their music had turned into mindless, distortion-filled droning for me. Maybe I just got outta high school and left them at the gates...

Sig

[Anonymous Coward]

Wouldn't "breed" be a more appropriate word?

I want it!

[UrGeek]

Imagine plugging in your Les Paul and playing the first bar of a song. Your computer recognizes it and setup the correct settings on the multi-effects - one for each string. I have heard legends about hexaphonic distorion. And you can have separate delay and reverb settings for each string. Run each of the separate sounds thorugh unique choruses and finally to 12 different amps, placed all around the room.

"Fire Woman" coming at you from 12 different directions! A sea of fire, burning your soul. Then you play a few notes of "Telegraph Road" and the computer automagically switched to that ultraclean Mark Knopfler patch, reverbing around the countryside.

Then switch to Eric Johnson's "Trail of Tears". Eric used three completely different chains of effects and amps and danced on A/B switches while he played to achieve seamless tone changes. With Gibson's Magic, the computer can handle it.

And then imagine a guitar symphony version of the Music of the Ainur!

Damn, I'm creaming in my jeans over this.

Just imagine!

But Pete Townshend doesn't like it . . .

[pariahdecss]

Pete does not like the Gibson guitars because the internal hard drive on his Fender guitar can hold more child pornography . . . .

Re:But seriously

[chamenos]

i think this is more of a gimmick than anything else. there's no actual need for a digital electric guitar. its just digital for the sake of being so....its kinda reminiscent of all those "can i install linux on my toaster" jokes. you might be able to, but what's the point??

Don't scare me like that!

[mraymer]

When I saw "Gibson" in a Slashdot article title, my first thought was, "Oh dear God, they're posting stories about the movie Hackers! Please, God, no... please! Oh... whew..."

sound over CAT5

[Anonymous Coward]

Although this is a new twist, it's based on existing technology- I currently work in a venue where all the sound is piped through cat5 (a system called Cobra-Net [Peakaudio.com]). It's a system (or variant thereof) used extensively in large (stadium, huge theatres) venues- lighting is also controlled via ethernet these days.

They have been doing this on a limited basis ...

[Anonymous Coward]

For about four years they have had this going on. Back in 1998 when I was just entereing a college a friend of mine had one. It isn't anything spectacular. All this means to the guitar player is 'digially-over priced instrument' rather than just 'over priced.'

The interesting thing isn't the Cat-5...

[NorthWoodsman]

"The Magic technology will let users apply unique digital effects to each string of the guitar " That's the important part; when you can pick up each string individually, a guitar turns into one hell of a MIDI device. This means you can make your guitar sound like some other instrument like a piano, or make it automatically harmonize a third above whatever is playing, or it can play a drum machine and automatically adjust the tempo based on what you're playing. The Cat-5 is just a way to connect it. Although, Roland has had this same idea for some time now (Albeit it costs $1000, but then again, a '54 Les Paul isn't cheap either).

The RIAA...

[Jaysyn]

...will put DRM in it so you can't play anyone else's songs.

Jaysyn

guitarists aren' natural technogists

[shortscruffydave]

The guitar is a fairly 'organic' instrument, and that seems to reflect in guitarists' approach to technology. Guitar synths, never caught on the was that their keyboard-driven cousins did. And there are a number of technical innovations which have pretty much been left by the wayside or (at best) only have a very small minority following. I'm thinking of things like SynthAxe, Stepp, etc.

Similarly with amps, ask the majority of players if they'd prefer a traditional valve-driven Marshall stack or one of the new-breed 'virtual amp' modellers, and I think they;d opt for the former.

I'd be suprised if this becomes mainstream within the next 5 years.

Re:But seriously

[Datoyminaytah]

There are plenty of inventions now in wide use for which there was no "need" when they were invented.

Did you read the article? This will allow a lot of options, such as independant string processing, controlling remote equipment from the guitar, etc. If you're not a guitar player maybe this doesn't mean anything to you.

Not to say that there isn't a place for the good 'ol analog guitar, which will continue to be the mainstay of rock music. I sure won't be getting rid of mine.

Look at the flame on that

[Zog The Undeniable]

"It's the sustain. It's famous for its sustain."

"I'm not hearing anything."

"You would, though, if I had an RJ45 cable."

Re:d/a converters.

[NormalVisual]

Studios may *pay* a ridiculous amount for A/D/A conversion, but that doesn't mean if actually *costs* that to implement. I can't remember ever seeing a laboratory-grade A/D converter board being more than a couple thousand dollars per channel (and that's for 24-bit sampling in the megahertz range), and I guaran-damn-tee you the lab-grade stuff is better designed and implemented than anything done for the recording industry. It's just like when I used to hang out at a friend's studio a number of years ago - he had a custom 64-channel Amek console that cost more than a million dollars and he had to pay many, many thousands of dollars for if he wanted to add another channel, when the parts themselves came out to be somewhere on the order of $400 or so. I'm quite sure Gibson will figure something out. :-)

Re:But seriously

[chamenos]

i am a guitar player...and this introduces nothing new.

it might be able to process individual strings, but are the pickups able to pick up individual strings? if you mean making the guitar wireless, its already being done by connecting the guitar to a wireless microphone trasmitter. if you mean effects, i think pedals are good enough, since fiddling with buttons or knobs on your guitar to turn effects on or off would not be possible or convenient to do so whilst you're playing.

anyway unless the pickups become digital as well, the digital interface in between the analog pickups and analog speakers isn't going to do much. you might as well save the money you would spend on this gibson and buy some quality cables and pickups.

sounds silly, but

[hawwy]

this sounds pretty radical on the face of things, and ideas like an effect for each string are way out there too. myself, i'll stick to my 'normal' les paul, but just remember that it was crazy innovation that brought about some of the biggest changes in music, and it wasn't always accepted at first.

CyberPunk

[joe_90]

So are they going to bring out a William Gibson custom model so I can play some raucous cyberpunk?

"Lets DDOS the Landlord"

-- joe.

Tube Amp?

[mistermund]

So, when do they make a tube amp with Ethernet?

Re:d/a converters.

[SanLouBlues]

Yeah, but the spec also says (in 4.2.2 #2) that a/d and d/a should be chosen with particular care. And right below that it says that each device should limit jitter to within 80 picosec. Besides, a good customer plays stuff before buying, and if it sounds worse than a $100 stratocaster replica, there will be no consideration given to any MaGiC products.

Re:I can see it now - Screw the Marshall stack,

[Anonymous Coward]

So does this mean that the RIAA will now charge you for playing songs you don't write.

The Real Question....

[Anonymous Coward]

But does it run linux?

or! better yet! Imagine a beowulf cluster of these...

It's not ethernet

[TheTomcat]

It's just CAT5. There was an article here on /. a year, or-so, ago, about it.

S

a few questions from handybundler

[Anonymous Coward]

Will the pickup to processor transfer be able to handle the rigors of the full spectrum of sound? Is there an optimum frequncy operating range that these will be able to pick up with no signal degradation? I'd hate to think this would be limited by a 20-20KHz signal window.

I'm imagining being able to wipe out my whole analogue interface and be able to connect dirextly to a rack mount panel (Magic interface?) and essentially do every thing from program drum sequences with MIDI capable sounds to being able to choose from a '68 Marshall Plexi head or a '94 EVH 130 head.

Cool ass shit. Can I test one?

handybundler

Not for me.

[Ancker.net]

As an avid guitarist and technology nerd at the same time, I have to say this is BAD. The pure sound of an analog pickup on a guitar going through an all tube pre-amp and all tube amplifier is amazing. The realness and clearness of each and every microtone that you decide to play is flawless. No serious guitarist would use CAT5. I could see some applications for transcribing and controlling other pieces of hardware (but that is what MIDI is for) I do see how some features could be cool, but not for everyday playing. You'd have to bring your whole rig EVERYWHERE you go. Because most likely, your bassist isn't going to have a CAT5 enabled practice amp for you to use in his basement. Now what I want to see is 2.4GHz Guitar Wireless!

No way I am using a Gibson amp

[Anonymous Coward]

I love my SG and I am planning on buying a Les Paul soon, but there is no way in hell I am going to buy a $3000+ Les Paul that will only interface with Gibson hardware and amps.

DUPE!

[mattyohe]

Well.. not really a dupe.. but it was last mentioned here http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/12/04/175325 9 -- 12:33 PM December 4th, 2001

Cat5 cheaper? Not for long

[Scodiddly]

OK, so at the moment it's claimed that Cat5 is cheaper than 1/4" plug guitar cords.

But hey, how long will it take Monster Cable to come out with an expensive "audiophile" and/or "guitar optimized"/"jazz optimized"/"bass optimized"/etc Cat5 cable to sell in the music stores? And how much longer before the guitar store zombies start adding "oh yeah dude my solos sound *so* much better with this cable yeah" to their spiel?

I actually spotted a Monster modem cable in the store - a 6-foot telephone cable which promised to improve my dial-up connections! Sheesh.

FETs vs. BJTs

[mekkab]

A quick question: I remember back in the day seeing adverts in GFTPM* magazine about MOSFET this and that...

But when I learned a thing or two about semiconductors, its seems that BJTs would be a much better choice for amplification (where as FETs are better at the binary thing, given their VERY limited linear range)- they give BIG amplification values and have a larger linear range.

So why don't they use BJTs?

P.S.- If you have a crappy guitar, I'm not sure how much a tube amp is gonna help.

P.P.S- if you loose enough of your hearing from lots of loud, loud music, the difference between real tubes and "sumilated" tubes doesn't matter! ;)

*(Guitar for the practicing musician)

Re:FETs vs. BJTs

[lingqi]

I don't think that's quite true. BJT was good for a while but then when they can finally make FETs in quantity and quality most people switched to it.

The thing is that FETs have a much higher gain than a BJT, and a higher input impedance, lower (or, easier to control manufacture-wise) output impedance, lower leakage (input current) and the gain is not based on a hard-to-calibrate factor (read: BJT's lovely beta number).

At the same time FETS amplification factor is so high, though, that you need to put a lot of feedback on the amplifier to make sure it stays in the linear range. not a hard thing to do. And FETs handle more power too usually, IIRC.

again, havn't touched this stuff for a while, so definitely not authoritative. might be utter bs, in fact, so somebody feel free to correct me.

Re:FETs vs. BJTs

[mekkab]

Thanks, that helps.

Most all my bjt vs fet knowledge is from text books... they aren't too concerned with pratical applications of one over the other!

Re:It goes...On and On and On ... Stop the madness

[BlakeGarretson]

I believe you forgot:
14. Beowolfed guitars

Re:I can see it now - Screw the Marshall stack,

[tigertigr]

I hear the volume goes up to 0x0B on that one.

Excuse me?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hack the what?

Re:d/a converters.

[hyperturbopete]

What a load of bull.

D/A converters are quite cheap, compared to musical instruments and recording equipment.

Couple of hundred $$ for the kind that plugs into your PC, is good for audio frequency signals, lets you record a bunch of channels. Couple of thousand $$ if you are stupid about setting volume on your instruments/amps/effects and you need ridiculous dynamic range to compensate for that.

Shame they called it the "Magic"

[ktstev01]

"Multicaster" would seem to be more appropriate.

Not the Same Thing

[Gerry Gleason]

Yes, the analog wireless devices are common now, but obviously, that's not what this would be. No doubt they went with wired ethernet is that it best met the latency and bandwidth they needed. These requirements can probably be met with a wireless system, but probably not with many (if even one) current 802.11* gear.

I have no idea whether anyone is already working on the technology for "realtime" digital wireless, but I'm sure any breakthrough would be prime /. material. Yeah, why not an Open * project .... It would be cool technology.

New opportunities for 1337 hax0rs

[qengho]

I can just see it: a worm that turns the output of a Nine Inch Nails show into the treacly slop of Kenny G. The horror, the horror! (Although vice-versa might be interesting...)

Gibson's management not God's gift?

[swb]

IANAMusician, but I could have sworn that Gibson had been put into the same category as Harley-Davidson by the American business media -- "an icon of American business & manufacturing that almost died but was resurrected and on a newfound path to glory, thanks to its innovative, dedicated and insightful management team."

The way you describe them, it sounds like they're headed back to the same gutter!

Re:But seriously

[LudditeMind]

Not true. Sometimes it's all about the inputs and outputs, how much easier now to record directly onto digital media. No analog to digital mess, there's a big difference. Especially if you're ear is used to listening to audio equpment someone can tell the difference between a line6 digital amp and the real thing easily. But the technology is getting much better, and this warrents a new interface. Digital vs. Analog is a big contention between some musicians.

Pipe organists have faced this dilemma...

[Anonymous Coward]

...since time immemorial.

You've heard of the plain, old-fashioned, analog pipe organ, haven't you? The kind they've been playing in Protestant churches for upwards of half a millenium? A pipe organ responds with as much as half a second of silence between the time the key is first pressed at the keyboard and the time the sound first emerges from the pipe. That's why great [or even competent] organists are so rare [by contrast with great, or even competent, pianists] - the organist has to anticipate everything the orchestra and the choir and the conductor will be doing about half a second in the future. It's damn near impossible to play the instrument, and if you listen closely to any work featuring an accompanied organ [Saint-Saens Sym. No. 3, Mahler Sym. No. 2], you'll realize that even the "greatest" organists in the world can't master the thing.

Re:Pipe organists have faced this dilemma...

[Anonymous Coward]

I heard that this is also what makes playing a carillon difficult (you know, those things with a series of bells at the top of a clock tower and the keyboard tens of meters lower).

Sober roadies????

[Anonymous Coward]

You gotta be kidding. A roadie quit smoking dope? Maybe a roadie for a Christian rock band only.

replace the operator with some software

[shortscruffydave]

I presume that the natural choice of language to develop this software would be C#

Re:But seriously

[LudditeMind]

People said the same thing about ProTools. Now every studio and their grandma is using it. Why? Because it makes things easier. And if it's easier to set things up, then the musician can spend more time on the music at hand. You may not be able to imagine a use for having different effects on each string, but I think you'll be pleasantly suprised at what other people come up with. It isn't hard to see how it could be useful for live performances. I understand if you're not a progressive player, but lots of people will find ways to put this to good use.

Re:a/d converters.

[buswolley]

its a/d converters.. and yes they are expensive if you want quality. Do some research man

Great for Madonna,J.Lo

[Anonymous Coward]

If you want to produce and manage a stage show, this is great. Run all the instruments through a Mac for a real production line kind of sound. And if the musicians miss a note or 2, the computer can fill in. Lip-sync for the guitar.

I spent too much time getting the right 60's tube amp and vintage guitars for a great sound. I don't need more toys. If you wanna sound like Stevie Ray, Eric, or Jerry Garcia, you have to play using the equipment they did.

open-source guitar/music FX

[phorm]

I was just looking at sound of the FX, etc boxes for guitar, and choking on some of the rather high pricing. If a niche-market for PC-enabled (or at least PC-hardware enabled) guitars comes out, perhaps we can see something more custom along this line.

I've been considering starting an open-source project (once I have time) to create a custom guitar FX synth - does anyone know what the CPU requirements might be around to process Digital Effects in realtime (probably in one soundcard and out another).
Somebody may have already done this already. If I can get a DSP/ethernet enabled guitar, this could theoretically save a lot of headache in trying to sort out the input/FX/output latency issues.

NOTHING NEW

[Anonymous Coward]

1) OLD NEWS
2) LOW QUAILTY SOUND (all digital is) comparted to the originals.

3) THERE IS A THING CALLED TONE...... wait what would you bunch of geeks know about why the golden sound is only produced via ANALOG!!!!

Newbs....your all foocking newbs...

And yes Jimmie is spinning in his grave!

Hold off!

[Anonymous Coward]

I would suggest holding out on this. Companies have tried to merge guitars with the digital world before. Roland has a MIDI pick-up and a series of guitar-synths and modeling amplifiers. I think Gibson or one of the larger guitar makers have even made a guitar with the Roland Guitar pick-up built in. You see people using the stuff on occasion but generally, most guitar people I know tend to shy away from it in favor of a simple

Right now I use a POD 2.0, a DSP based direct recording box, to connect my Gibson 335 right into my board. It works pretty well but there are certain sounds that the POD just can't replicate. The stuff is getting better. There is a new version of the POD which sounds better and there are even some software only solutions which sound great. I like technology as much as the next guy but there is something to be said about just pluggin' in to a big grungy amp and rockin' out.

I wish all these companies would get their sh1t together, stop coming up with goofy proprietary stuff, and start pushing an industry wide solution like mLan or some kind of standard which provides audio signal and device control (MIDI + AUDIO). MIDI is showing its age and despite the various standards for digital audio the we don't really have something "clean".

Re:But seriously

[Tink2000]

The article indicates that the first generation will have analog pickups, so you can play it either way. I would imagine later versions will dispense with the pickup and process only sound off the string. Also, most professionals have a processor loaded with custom presets connected to a foot switch. Not all distortion effects sound the same for each song. So when they need to switch from Distortion 1 to Distortion 2 to Clean, they kick the switch ever how many times and that flips the signal processor. No need for fiddling with knobs either on the guitar or on some foot switch. (read as: this tech isn't quite ready for a garage band where all distortion _does_ sound the same.) When i first read that, I was reminded of some of the things that the Dead used to do during Dark Star. I never cared too much for the Dead, but some of the things they pulled off during that 20-30 minute between set jam were simply amazing. Innovation in music is always a good thing. The Beatles (like em or loathe em as you will) did neat things in the studio, and got the recognition they deserved for it (cf: cutting up loops of tape for the closing sequence in "The Benefit of Mr. Kite", the entire song "Revolution 9"). Pink Floyd circa 1972 was heavily innovative with thier quirky use of stereo and quad -- I'm told to go to a show back then was to subject oneself to virtual streams running down the isle and birds chirruping overhead in an imaginary sky. Lastly, I didn't see anything about wireless transmission in the article at all. Don't knock new tech till you've tried it (and try rtfa next time too).

... midi is an unfulfilled promise?

[sin(theta)]

he pointed to the unfulfilled promise of such earlier digital-music revolutions as the musical instrument digital interface (MIDI) format.

... pardon me? What does he think people use to control their synths, software, automated mixing boards, video mixers...? MIDI may have its limitations but it is far from an unfulfilled promise.

I have to wonder, though, why they didn't go with firewire, or partner with Yamaha and make them M-Lan devices... Too many new "standards", that's what leads to unfulfilled promises.

Re:It goes...On and On and On ... Stop the madness

[Andrewkov]

Nice Yngwie Malmsteen reference!! Must be the first ever on /. !

I play a roland midi guitar (digital)

[Anonymous Coward]

1st - the tracking (how well the digital interpretation can follow my actual picking) is horrible. I must play very simply and VERY precisely. Also things like slides and mutes are impossible to do.

2nd - latency is unacceptable. once the a/d filters get overwhelmed, note bending for example, latency goes way up and quickly becomes completely unplayable.

So to overcome the analog/digital conversion problems, a guitar would have to have direct digital inputs. This means that there would have to be a digital sensor at every fret, and for every string. There are currently guitars like this but playing these is not like playing a guitar, it's like playing a keyboard layed out in the shape of a guitar. In short, it's not a pleasant experience.

Sure there will be people who'll adopt this technology, but they'll only be a joke to the analog guitarists with a tube amp. As is said in the business, "I'll bury you with the roar of my marshall."

Lessons of Recent History

[John Michael Davison]

None of the following links is new, but it's useful to remember how Gibson Guitar Corporation has managed such projects in the past. See the following:

SUMMARY: GIBSON GUITAR CORPORATION vs. D.N. CROWE
http://stephengoldin.com/gibson/summary.html

REPORTS OF THESE DEATHS ARE GREATLY EXAGGERATED
http://stephengoldin.com/gibson/reports.html

A SETTLEMENT HAS BEEN REACHED http://stephengoldin.com/gibson/

It is also useful to see how Gibson handled the acquisition of Opcode.

Gibson vs. Opcode
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Monitor/645 4/

Somewhere on the Harmony Central website are some sobering remarks on Gibson's rebranding of third-party products as Opcode. I can't find the links at the moment, but the bottom line is that the goodwill associated with Opcode trademark has been squandered; one hopes that the same fate will not befall Gibson's efforts with the Magic platform.

If only they had open-sourced Opcode's software!

Tube Amps

[evenprime]

srichman and evilpiper were discussing sound artifacts and errors that show up in pickups, cables, and amplifiers. I'm reproducing part of that exchange here to give the context for my comments below.

srichman said:
>>>>Noise will always be introduced by pickups,
>>>>and many consider it to be part of the
>>>>"character" of the guitar/pickups.

Evilpiper responded:
>>>That's very short-sighted. You could just
>>>as well say that distortion will always be
>>>introduced by amplification (ie. tub-amps),
>>>and many consider it to be part of the
>>>character.

srichman countered:
>>Come on! Are you really trying to argue
>>that people don't think the distortion
>>introduced by tube amps is part of
>>the "character" of their music!? The
>>overdriven tube distortion sound has
>>virtually defined rock music for decades!

evilpiper offered the opinion:
>>I would never base anything on what people
>>*think*. People think a lot of things, wether
>>they are true or not...If you someone wants
>>that tube sound, make it an effect that can be
>>added if someone wants it.

There are plenty of companies selling effects pedals like this that are designed to simulate the sound of overdriven tubes. Guess what? The sound is close, but it is not the same. I've got a pedal to play through my newer amps, and it never comes out the same as my fender bassman with the 6L6s glowing in the back. The same is true of organs; I don't think you can buy an organ or keyboard that doesn't have a setting to simulate the sound of a hammond B-3 organ. The genuine B-3 will sound different in a recording, though.

I'm not sure why. Maybe the electronics to simulate the sound of the old equipment just aren't quite there yet. Maybe the electronics are, but musicians respond differently to simulations than they do to the genuine stuff, and that comes across in the recording. Regardless of the reason, though, there is a difference.

In the long run this becomes increasingly less important over time. As music changes, a sound will be nearly abandoned for a decade or more. When that sound becomes trendy again, a simulation may be good enough to satisfy most listeners. Older music fans will be able to hear the difference, but they will be in the minority of the people buying music.

I started out wanting to say that evilpiper is wrong, and that overdriven tubes sound better than mere effects. Now I have to admit that they simply sound different, and I prefer the sounds I'm accustomed to over simulations of those sounds. [sigh!] I'm feeling old.

Re:Tube Amps

[evilviper]

Perhaps you don't realize that you could have a pedal with an actual tube in it... In fact there are plenty of small, tube-driven, pre-amps already. No doubt the electronic simulation is cheaper, though.

But I still don't buy the defense that, because some people enjoy a particularly noisy sound, that it shouldn't be ``fixed".

Re:Tube Amps

[Anonymous Coward]

That's very short-sighted. You could just as well say that distortion will always be introduced by amplification (ie. tub-amps), and many consider it to be part of the character.

uhh... yeah... I might as well say that somebody who buys a car has the intention of driving it somewhere.

The distortion provided by an amp contributes IMMENSELY to its "sonic character."

You obviously don't play guitar, and know little about the equipment involved. While distortion may be undesirable in a tube-based home audio system, guitar amps are specifically designed to distort. They weren't always, but once people started to develop a taste for overdriven guitar sounds (early 1950's, maybe?), amp manufacturers started to incorporate this feature into their amps.

"Master volume" amps have their level of distortion directly tied to the volume at which they are set. Non-master volume amps, like my Peavey 5150 for example, have seperate gain controls for the pre-amp and the power amp. I can crank the pre-amp gain and get tons of tube distortion while keeping the power amp gain low enough to not disturb the people downstairs.

-Dan.

Imagine

[Anonymous Coward]

A beowulf cluster of these

CAN'T CRAETE ACCOUNT - Invalid form key

[Anonymous Coward]

Invalid form key: ONhMTLHMkE !

Chances are, you're behind a firewall or proxy, or clicked the Back button to accidentally reuse a form. Please try again. If the problem persists, and all other options have been tried, contact the site administrator. ..............
DUH! I'm behind a firewall AND a proxy.
SO WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So are 88 zillion other people.
Why can't I create an account, you assholes?!!!!

Re:But seriously

[talesout]

The point? Let me conspiracy theory something up.

The point is the RIAA fears change. They see it coming. The big-name music making companies need to come up with a way to get free-music lovers back under control. I always feared the day I would need a license to play an old Metallica song through my own guitar. It seems, if that day is to come to pass, this is the perfect first step. Convince musicians that there's all kinds of good reasons to go fully digital. Soon, the amps go fully digital. Soon after that, there's a processor in your amp analyzing every note. Play the correct series and you are taxed by the RIAA for playing a cover song without prior written consent.

Sure, it's a crackpot theory, but what are the chances some RIAA good isn't salivating at the prospect of being able to crack down on illegal (i.e. unsponsored) guitar playing? Imagine if music itself becames outlawed. I fear the day my children are told that analog musical devices are no longer legal, because they cannot be properly monitored.

Re:a/d converters.

[Anonymous Coward]

I found nothing from microsoft.com a/d converters don't exists you are crazy!

seems like..

[presearch]

latency would totally screw up feedback.
You might get a whole new class of sounds,
but it's not an improvement on the original,
just something different.

Cat5 Amp cord

[GDanzig777]

Can I write scripts for my guitar now, and get rid of all those messy pedals? Or is Microsoft going to make Bluetooth enabled musical equipment now?

Lone Wolf tried this

[Animats]

In the early 1990s, Lone Wolf Systems built a LAN for pro audio, called MediaLink. They didn't extend it to the instruments, but it went out to the amps, and Peavey made some amps with it built in. Some major groups went on the road with that system. For major productions, it cut way down on the number of cables. That's really what this is all about.

Then Paul Allen bought the company, and it disappeared into "the hell that is a Paul Allen company".

Running cable to instruments seems backwards. It would make more sense to have them be wireless, digital, protected from interference, and have a long battery life, all of which are achieveable with current technology in a lightweight package. Just reprogramming some 3G cell phone units for point to point work should do it.

Besides, if you run Cat 5 cable to instruments, you'll have to have special cables and connectors engineered with all the flex and crush resistance of pro audio cables.

Composers vs. Performers

[UncleGizmo]

I am a guitarist, and I see this as an instrument more for recording than performing. As ProTools, Sonar, Acid and others have helped make studio recording easier [and less expensive], so will this.

But [as the article points out] unless you are a guitarist who performs using a lot of programmed material, it will not replace good old analog equipment. Typically, vacuum tube amplifiers actually preferred - and more expensive - than solid state / digital equipment because of their inherent 'warmth' and capability to saturate the sound when pushed. Same with analog recording vs. digital. Depending on the style of music you play, one may be preferable.

Also, MIDI music controllers are typically keyboards. Which means, as a guitarist, if you want to add other instruments to a recording, you use the keys...Which can be tough if you never had piano lessons.

It will also help [especially if the Magic network thingy becomes successful] for musicians to collaborate virtually, change pitch without changing tempo, etc. This will again reduce the time and effort required to produce a well-engineered composition. It will probably also do for music what other electronic instruments did [synthesizer, drum machine, loops, sequencers, etc.] - it won't replace analog, but give more options for sounds and composing [and therefore ideas].

BTW, there are already other companies [such as Line 6, Roland-partnered with Fender, etc.], who have already started the trend of using guitars as controller for electronic sounds.

Re:Composers vs. Performers

[nnet]

Also, MIDI music controllers are typically keyboards. Which means, as a guitarist, if you want to add other instruments to a recording, you use the keys...Which can be tough if you never had piano lessons.... In the 70's and 80's, yes, keyboards were primary controllers. Starting in the 80's, virtually anything with a MIDI interface can control. Computer software, guitars, drum machines, foot pedals, and many more I'm not aware of. I'm not a keyboard player, but I don't require one to handle all my MIDI control.

Re:Composers vs. Performers

[UncleGizmo]

Right. My point was that, as a guitarist, it's easier to control with that instrument than one that may be [less] familiar.

Gibson tried once before with fiber optic guitar

[nnet]

....a few years back, Gibson, and another company I cannot recall, were trying to build a guitar that used fiber optic strings, instead of the real thing. The press release mentioned something about increased tonal width, blah blah blah. Six months after the press release, I tried to follow up on the progress of this project. I got some PR response that said nothing, and nothing ever came of the project.

Wish I could recall the project name and the company Gibson paired with....

Interface implemented with a Xilinx FPGA

[brandido]

The Gibson MaGIC technology is implemented using a Xilinx Sparten-IIE FPGA, as noted in this press release. From this release it sounds like they choose an FPGA to enable reprogramming capabilities to implement different effects, as well as allowing them to license the technology to other music manufacturers. This article also mentions that there will be a 30 to 30,000 increase in data and control transfer rates compared to MIDI. Not too shabby.

Illegal != unsponsored

[UncleGizmo]

I think you may be a little _too_ conspiratorial here. You don't think Metallica smiles at every kiddie guitarist who goes to Guitar Center on Saturday to play 'Enter Sandman' on a big amplifier? Those are the same fans that go to concerts, pay for the t-shirt, etc.

The issue the RIAA has with is recorded music [the "R" in the acronym]. Performing someone else's music live is completely legal [if unsponsored].

The only way you'd be 'taxed' is if you released your recording of someone else's song...which is a royalty payment. And btw, you're already taxed playing cover songs if you perform - the clubs [big ones anyway] send you a 1099 for taxes, and [IIRC] either the company hiring you or the venue itself has a license [ascap/bmi?], lest the local music union folks visit.

Re:Illegal != unsponsored

[talesout]

First off, your comment about Metallica pretty much is exactly the opposite of what I expect Metallica does these days. They've proven they give less than a shit about what their fans want and how to best give a favorable impression to their fans. And the little MP3 debacle with them means nothing to me, I'm talking of their attitude and the way they speak of their "old" fans.

Secondly, I was speaking entirely theoretically, but since you mentioned it...

Yes, you are "taxed" if you play covers in a live venue. Guess where most of that money goes? It isn't the original artist. It's the record company that holds that artists "interests" as they say. And believe me, if the RIAA could figure out a way to charge junior every time he played the latest big thing on his guitar, they would.

ActualGuitarPlayer

[Anonymous Coward]

As long as I can get the same sort of sound I've been getting with an analog cable, I don't care! High frequency, low frequency? Half of you probably couldn't even pick up a guitar...

cat5 is fragile 1/4 is not

[rjmullens]

Ever trodden on cat5? Twisted it? Yanked it out of the socket? (All common with guitar leads)

Did it survive? 10:1 it didn't

This is nuts, cat5 is inherently fragile, it's not made for the treatment guitar leads get.

And if we have to use a "specially hardened" version, it won't be cheaper than 1/4 cable for very long.

Re:d/a converters.

[Anonymous Coward]

What a pile of crap.. 80ps jitter. No human can discern 80ps of jitter at 192kHz. At 100Mhz 80ps of jitter is not a problem in digital systems. Also the bag of parts for a high quality AUDIO a to d is not in the thousands of dollar range(Although the person who makes a finished product may charge substantially more).

Just a common sense thing

[Anonymous Coward]

Price of USB or Firewire cable vs. Price of ethernet. Plust I already have 2000 Ft. of cable in a bundle and my RJ45 tips at home. Why use USB or Firewire, when as you the consumer it would be cheaper to use ethernet.

Re:But seriously

[susano_otter]

Not everybody likes ProTools.

The story is a compelling account of what it's like to record an album in the studio, from the recording engineer's perspective. vgrep for "Alsihad"[1] for a strong indictment of ProTools' guarantee to suck the life out of good music through the magic of digital editing. Apparently it makes editing easier, but not better.

Plus, it looks like musicians generally don't spend any time editing their music in the studio anyway (that's the recording engineer's job). So it's not like a lack of ProTools is cutting into their valuable "focusing on their music" time, or anything. Presumably, those musicians who cared enough, and had clout enough, to edit their own albums, would prefer to produce higher-quality music, not necessarily faster, cheaper music.

Perhaps this is all different in the electronic music genres, where the life of the track comes from places other than the musicians heartfelt manual playing of their analog instrument.

Finally, consider this congruent argument: "People said the same thing about VHS. Now everybody and their grandma is using it. Why?" (Hint: not because it turned out to be the superior format.)

Re:But seriously

[susano_otter]

[1] For some obscure reason, the author refers to ProTools as "Alsihad".

actually...

[vena]

behringer makes an absolutely awesome virtual cab/direct box called the Ultra-G. retails for about $30. check it out sometime, i highly recommend it and use it myself.

Re:No way I am using a Gibson amp: DON'T HAVE TO

[magic_dev_guy]

1. That's why the digi guitar comes with an analog breakout box to use with ANY amp/effects/gear. 2. It won't cost $3K

Re:The latency : real results

[magic_dev_guy]

In the lab with our HW we're seeing about 21 microseconds latency board to board--10X faster than the spec allows.

RIAA wet dream?

[jmorse]

I can see it now. You have a jam session and some lawyer shows up on your porch: "Sir, that note you played last week is the copyrighted property of the RIAA. You can either pay us $50,000 for infringing or we'll see you in court." Or, better yet, your amp will now pre-empt when you try to play any RIAA-owned notes. Those would be the notes in the range ABCDEFG, including sharps, flats, majors, and minors. Yes, all your tonal range are belong to us! After all, we've just got to plug that analog hole somehow!

Re:A Good Reason Not to go Wireless(any examples?)

[borkface]

Has anyone ever heard of an instance where a show's wireless sound system was deliberately sabotaged (other than Spinal Tap)?

Just imagine...

[Blrfl]

A whole Steppenwolf^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HBeowulf clutster of these things!

1/4" cables coil much easier!

[Anonymous Coward]

I haven't seen anyone make mention anything from a roadie/sound-tech perspective yet. There are some nice advantages to using regular 1/4" instrument cables that may not be so nice with current cat5 cables I've seen.

1/4" cables are fairly easy to "train" so that they coil nicely, and can lay flat across a stage. Have any of you ever tried to train a cat 5 cable? There's just no way "cheap" cat5 will coil nicely. It's alays a mess. And making it lay flat? No way.

Maybe there are more expensive cat5 cables out there that can coil nicely and lay flat, but I have a feeling they'd be even more expensive than standard 1/4" instrument cables. Also, the nice heavy duty connector of a 1/4" cable is harder to damage.

If someone trips over a cable, or you step on your guitar cord, you might break the tab on the rj45 connector that keeps it locked in. With a 1/4" connector, if you yank it out there's no problem or damage. You can just push it back in. I suppose that nothing says they have to use an rj45 style connector, but the article didn't make mention of anything so I assume they are.

Autopr0n

[autopr0n]

got hit by SQL slammer, I think. And now something is wrong with the server.

Re:Autopr0n

[Anonymous Coward]

That's because you use a platform that is totally inappropriate for serving stuff on the Internet. www.17babes.com not only has better porn, but they run on something reliable too.

Re:But seriously

[FenderGeek]

Actually, as the story talks about, it's very similar to the concept of MIDI, only it's a little more advanced and a little more digitally pure. Brian Moore guitars is already marketing a guitar with a direct MIDI port rather than a standard 1/4" jack, and it seems to do quite well for a niche market. The cool thing here is now you could have the top 3 strings with heavy fuzz/distortion and a completely clean sound for the bottom 3, etc. Still, it's gotta suck when your guitar starts suffering from packet loss in the middle of a show.

Les Paul Picture

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.cesweb.org/awards/inn_images/innovation s_2003/1342/mainphoto1342.jpg

electric guitar is a system

[Pinball Wizard]

it consists of magnetic pickups, tube amplifiers, and magnetic speakers.

take any one of these out of the loop and replace it with something else(solid state amps, modelling amps, guitar synthesizers, anything that digitizes the sound) and it becomes something else. An approximation at best.

Why do the latest and greatest digital modelling amps all brag about the 50's and 60's era tube amps they emulate? Is it because they found a better way to reproduce the sound of the guitar transmitted through those magnetic pickups? No. Its because the old tube amps sound better. Find me a single tube amp that claims to sound like a Line 6 and I will eat my post.

Its not just one element, its the entire system. Magnetism interacts with electricity. The pickups, tubes and speakers work together to make a pleasing tone, and nothing can change or "improve" that equation. You might as well talk about a system that runs an acoustic guitar through a series of A/D and D/A converters to produce a "better" sound. Not going to happen. An acoustic guitar is an acoustic guitar. What we know and love as the electric guitar, again, is magnets, tubes and electricity. Change that and you have something else entirely.

Noise -----

[SacredNaCl]

I've never had anything digital that didn't add a ton of noise to the sound. Remember Fenders Midi Guitar? +30DB. Absolutely worthless for anyone playing at any volume outside of their basement by themselves. Roland GP-8? Noise. GP-16? Noise.

First generation of "digital" delays? Excessive noise. In fact, even the expensive ($1000+ racks) that are dedicated to a single effect (Lexicon) add a ton of noise and choppiness to the sound.

I'm sure there are a ton of guitar players who thought they might save a little money and buy one of those 6 in 1 digital effects boards and quickly discovered that you had to use a noise gate on it to even make it tolerable, and it was worthless live because of the noise.

This isn't to say that some digital appliances don't have a place(if you don't mind the noise), and that analog appliances are always noise free (they aren't). But I can go buy a good set of analog effects from $20-110 a piece and not have those issues, have a simple interface that I can control easily. More knobs, or worse "buttons" just make the situation more aggrivating for the musician. If I have to do a ten step tap dance on a 10 button floor controller to change a bank of effects ...I'm supposed to be able to do this in the middle of a song while playing? I've never been able to. About all I can muster is one or two foot stomps on very simple switches.

The one area digital effects are truly superior is compression. But it's very hard to find ones that allow soft compression for more varied styles of music.

Then comes the problems of ...Can I change the pickups out with what I want and still have it work? I generally stick a P94 in whatever guitar I buy because I like that sound and know what it will do. With digital pickups am I going to have to gut the entire thing if that is all that is available to get what I want? Is my guitar tech going to be able to work on it? Or is every trip for a slight problem going to be "replace the main board"?

One other note on the wonders of digital appliances... I had a couple friends that bought digital modeling amplifiers and took them on the road. None of them can currently survive a trip through the airport even with heavy road cases. Not line-6, not yamaha. Am I going to have to worry about my guitar getting rattled to pieces if I take it through the airport to play a gig in Australia as well as the new amp and effects I am "forced" to use?

Even if it allows you to mount the buttons to control the effects on the guitar, that isn't an ideal solution for most players either.

That being said, I do see some uses for those who are disabled and play. I had a fit and a half converting a series of stomp boxes from their new style (FET) swtiches to traditional switches so I could wire up a hand controller for my friend who is paralyzed from the waist down. He plays with a pick, so the solution was to make a hand band that puts the other three switches on his 3rd 4th and 5th finger directly on his palm and a sweat band to take the cables to a point where they wouldn't be obstructive for him. He's got three effects now, distortion, delay, and reverb.

I also understand why the industry really wants this. Good wood is becoming harder to find. China has proved dismal with their lack of technical ability to manufacture quality instruments. but you can take a crappy $90 guitar and make it sound half way decent with enough digital processing. Electronics are cheap. So they will start making the guitar out of plastic and compressed cardboard and use electronics to mold the sound...Still sell it to you for $1000 but cut their manufacturing cost by 2/3.

Rant mode off.

Re:It goes...On and On and On ... Stop the madness

[Ancker.net]

You forgot the HowTO on recompiling the Kernel with the distortion module, because so many teenagers keep complaining that their guitars sound too Country.

Re:It goes...On and On and On ... Stop the madness

[mulhall]

6b: Slashdot poster imagines a Beowolf cluster of those, and the first Ethernet band is born!

6c: Band spend several years thinking, not playing, and eventually decide on the name "Band-width"

Sound is already digital...

[anthony_dipierro]

Oh, you're talking about a granularity greater than h-bar?

Cool dude, now we dont need a guitarist

[Anonymous Coward]

Now we dont need a guitarist at all... just plugh the ether net cable and stream MP3 to the guitar, and all we need is a Highschool kid to hold the guitar and freak out (which can easily be achieved using electric shocks)

Lets start new rock group... how about Etherletric for the name.

Re:But seriously

[OrbNobz]

>...This will allow a lot of options, such as ... controlling remote equipment from the guitar...

No Bob!
You _double_-pluck G to turn on the distortion!
Idiot!

- OrbNobz
Who said that??? Dammit! Who said that?!?

Re:d/a converters.

[Madcapjack]

actually, buswolley is right.