New US $20 bills Released, Colors & Layout Change

JayBonci writes "CNN is running a story with the newest advances in the original copy-protection arms race, a new US $20 dollar bill. From the article, specifically color and different number arrangements as an improvement over 1996's "Big Face" dollar bills." Little off the norm for Slashdot, but it's interesting since computers have vastly simplified forgery.

Comments

Hmmm

[Gortbusters.org]

is the next story for today, "How to use your Linux machine for forgery?"

This is off the norm, with the decline in jobs I don't see too many 20s! :(

Re:Hmmm

[Surak]

You need SANE, a scanner supported by SANE, The GIMP, a modern printing system (CUPS is pretty good), and a good inkjet printer supporting on your printing system of choice.

First you ... &^&*^(*^%^&%*&%%*%* %%^T&(

THIS USER HAS BEEN ARRESETED UNDER THE U.S. PATRIOT ACT. MOVE ALONG, NOTHING TO SEE HERE.

Re:Hmmm

[KDan]

Ok then, here's a five dollar bill that should be appropriate for a slashdot poster :-)

Daniel

Re:Hmmm

[Consul]

You know, photo-realistic money is something I never thought of. That would be cool!

I vote for Belldandy on the ten. :-D

Re:Hmmm

[Sylver Dragon]

The question I have now, as I did the last time the US Treasury decided to do this sort of thing is, why would a forger bother with trying to forge one of the newer looking bills? The old $20's are still accepted everywhere, and have not become harder to forge. Seriously, if I was going to do something like this I would just make up a batch of older style $20's, put them in a wallet and run them through a few washer/dryer cycles to make them look a bit beat up. Then trek down to my local Wal-Mart and pass a few of them off to buy stuff. Wash-Rinse-Repeat (literally).
If anything this is just another example of our tax dollars being wasted in a futile attempt to stop a crime which, I believe, is not very rampant. This money could be better spent keeping the govenment out of debt and keeping inflation down. Sure the counterfeit bills increse inflation, but probably less so than the government printing more money everytime it feels the need. If anything, I think we would be better off if the govenment would only print as much money as it destroys, and then turn the presses off.

Re:Hmmm

[weave]

This is an excellent point and one that i was wondering about. Unlike other countries who routinely decommission monetary instruments (with a brief trade-in period), the United States refuses to do so. Why? It helps support the dollar's strength. Everyone all over the world knows if they stuff chests full of american currency inside their walls, it will still be good in the future. They won't have to drive it to some US bank to exchange it for the latest bills. Why do you think Saddam had so many dollars stashed?

So, basically, in order to keep our currency the choice of the (under)world, we refuse to expire it.

Re:Hmmm

[Cowboy]

You may want to check out this page. An average $20 bill is only in circulation for about 4 years before it gets replaced. More to the point, 95% of all bills printed in a given year go to replace existing currency. Better ways to keep the US government out of debt would include reducing military spending and rolling back existing tax cuts. In case you hadn't noticed, keeping inflation down is the least of our worries concerning the US economy.

Re:Hmmm

[Ancil]

why would a forger bother with trying to forge one of the newer looking bills? The old $20's are still accepted everywhere

Take an old $20 or $100 bill anywhere in Russia and try to spend it. Good luck. In parts of the world where forgery is rampant, the "new" bills are all people will accept. I imagine this will be true of the new monopoly money, as well.

this is just another example of our tax dollars being wasted in a futile attempt to stop a crime which, I believe, is not very rampant. This money could be better spent keeping the govenment out of debt and keeping inflation down

Oh Lord, here we go. Contrary to what Rush Limbaugh might be telling you, redesigning the currency is not causing the record $300 billion dollar Bush Deficit. You can chalk that up to a lack of fiscal discipline on the part of Republicans.

And counterfeiting isn't rampant here in the States. In some parts of the world 20 and 30 percent of US bills are counterfeit. The government would rather sell real US currency than have someone sell knockoffs. Much of the best counterfeit currency is printed in places like Libya and Iran, where US law enforcement is non-existant. Supposedly, North Korea is getting into the business as well.

Re:Hmmm

[sg3000]

> Why do you think Saddam had so many dollars stashed?

Is this kind of like the "why did the chicken cross the road" joke?

Umm... because U.S. currency is all Donald Rumsfeld brought back in December 1983. Saddam Hussein wasn't going to fall for the old I.O.U. trick again.

Re:Hmmm

[NetSettler]

Unlike other countries who routinely decommission monetary instruments (with a brief trade-in period), the United States refuses to do so. Why? It helps support the dollar's strength.

I, too, had planned to ask about how this helps at all, given the old money is still around, but since I'm already maxed out on karma anyway, I can be gracious and just be glad someone else did the typing. :) Your answer sounds like it confirms the presence of and explains the reason for a lingering security hole, but still leaves me wondering then why they would take an action with such an obvious hole in it! The following are the kinds of ideas that run through my head, and yet I can't imagine the government offering one of these as the official response in a press conference if they actually got pinned down and were forced to offer a reason. (The CNN article showed no evidence of the reporter having tried to get a reason.)

• "We've done it for the drug war and people haven't called us on it, so we thought we'd try it for the currency as well: Just making a lot of noise about all the things we're trying seems to hide our overall lack of success."
• "We are planning to flush the old money as a kind of attack on drug lords everywhere one day (and sorry about the unavoidable civilian casualties), but we're just not telling you yet."
• "We have friends in the treasury who are aspiring artists and keeping them employed is part of our plan to keep unemployment from worsening."
• "The French have complained and complained that our money was boring looking and our hope is that if we finally jazz it up, international relations between our two nations will warm."
• "It's yet another aspect of our CYA strategy--if the US dollar tanks and is only useful for toilet paper, at least it will be colorful toilet paper you're C'ing your A with."

Someone please tell me they're offering a line that's more coherent than these...

Re:Hmmm

[yellowstone]

The old $20's are still accepted everywhere, and have not become harder to forge.

But it has gotten a lot less ususal to see the old-style $20s... And forgery is one of those crimes that only works if the victims don't realize it's happening. As the population of legit old-school 20s in circulation dwindles, the harder it's going to be to pass counterfits.

People's faith in our currency is one of the basic underpinnings of our economy (both in the US and around the world). It's critical to the health of our economy that counterfitting is not just "not very rampant"; it must be unheard of.

Re:Hmmm

[DrXym]

It is my understanding that British currency and presumably most other countries is legal tender forever. Possibly not the coins, but notes can be exchanged at the Bank of England or wherever at face value for new ones even twenty years on. In the euro zone it is still possible to get rid of old notes but you have to turn up at a central bank to do it.

Re:Hmmm

[Citizen of Earth]

Seriously, if I was going to do something like this I would just make up a batch of older style $20's, put them in a wallet and run them through a few washer/dryer cycles to make them look a bit beat up.

One needs to be able to think in the longer term to see the benefit. In the country in which I live, we seem to have modifications made to our currency quite often and have over quite a long period of time. If I were to take a $20 bill that was in circulation about 12 years ago and try to spend it, most of the puke-faced teens that I would try to give it to wouldn't recognize it and might not accept it. Older people might remember it, but would give it a good looking over before accepting it. This is the longer-term strategy: make sure the older notes get a good looking over before being accepted. Maybe a forger wouldn't like the pressure every time he tried to pass an old note.

Re:Hmmm

[spaceyhackerlady]

This is an excellent point and one that i was wondering about. Unlike other countries who routinely decommission monetary instruments (with a brief trade-in period), the United States refuses to do so. Why?...

Here in Canada all Bank of Canada notes are legal tender, and will remain so.

You are not likely to see a George V or George VI dollar bill in circulation, but you can still spend it. However, when the banks send them back to the Mint, they will be destroyed. The Bank of Canada have a nice web site with lots of pretty pictures. All the notes they show are legal tender.

We are rolling out a new series of banknotes now, with two versions of both the $5 and $10 bill in circulation. They incorporate all the usual security goodies: weird colours, large portraits, watermarks, embedded doodads, complicated fine-line backgrounds, and so on.

...laura

Re:Hmmm

[DudeG]

Old notes aren't 'legal tender'; if you owe someone £20, they can legitimately refuse to accept an old £20 note.

However, you're right that the central bank will continue to accept and exchange old notes at their face value.

Re:Hmmm

[Spades_]

the dollar isn't just accepted in the US, it's also accepted all over the world for the most part. if you try to take an old 20 or old 100, hell even if it's the new large face $100's, if they aren't 1999 or above they won't accept it due to forgery. Lesson learned when traveling to bali and trying to exchange some cash to spend. all we had were 1996 $100's and they wouldn't take them. i would imagine that counterfeit money is a bigger problem outside the states as making them is easier there outside of US jurisdiction.

Re:Hmmm

[Hans Lehmann]

why would a forger bother with trying to forge one of the newer looking bills? The old $20's are still accepted everywhere, and have not become harder to forge

Because paper money has a rather short lifespan. While you'll frequently see coins dated from the 60's and 70's, you won't run across very many bills more than 10 years old. As old bills wear out and are shredded by the mint, they're replaced by the new ones. Even now I rarely see a $20 bill with the old smaller faces. The short lifespan of bills is a big reason behind the governments push for dollar coins; they cost twice as much to mint, but last ten times longer than paper.

Re:Hmmm

[DrXym]

Sorry by legal tender, I was referring to the "I promise to pay the bearer" part which obligates the Bank of England to accept them, not for anyone else to.

Re:Hmmm

[DickBreath]

Here in Canada all Bank of Canada notes are legal tender, and will remain so.

You are not likely to see a George V or George VI dollar bill in circulation.....

What about a George W note for Canada?

Re:Hmmm

[Have Blue]

The Federal Reserve is constantly collecting "old" currency and shredding it, and constantly publishing new. The money supply is unchanged, but the life of individual bills is not that long. The old 20s will still be accepted, but there will be gradually less and less of them (unless, as you say, someone starts stashing them).

Re:Hmmm

[Steve Cox]

The old 20s will still be accepted, but there will be gradually less and less of them (unless, as you say, someone starts stashing them). ...or someone starts forging them.

Re:Hmmm

[wmspringer]

I suppose that as the new money becomes more and more prevalent, it will become unusual to see the old $20s, so that if someone is passing counterfeit bills it'll be easier to track him down as not many people spend them.

Of course, in that case wouldn't they want to wait a bit longer before they change the bills again? I dunno....quite a few things the government does don't make that much sense to me.

Re:Hmmm

[gruhnj]

The reason that the US tresasury feels fine with allowing old money to be used is simple. Most bills dont last that long anyway. The average time that any given bill is in circulation is 18-24 months. Major banks regurarly examine the money that they recieve and exchange old money for new fresh currancy. That being the case, in a few years the "old" money will look strange compared to the newer money as their will simply be less of it. Because their is less of the old style money around, it will look more suspicious in the long run.

Re:Hmmm

[rkent]

Alright, this is just kind of another wrinkle in the story, not really an "answer" to your question. I figure you'll want references, so here are the 2 pages I used as a basis for this post:

US Treasury Currency FAQ:
http://www.ustreas.gov/education/faq/currenc y/prod uction.html

Bureau of Engraving and Printing FAQ:
http://www.moneyfactory.com/section.cfm/19

Basically, 2 important points from there:
1) No, there will not be a "recall" like the EU countries did when switching to the euro, and
2) "about 95%" of money printed by the US replaces worn-out bills (which are taken out of circulation and destroyed).

The point about people stockpiling bills in foreign countries is a good one; some huge portion (I want to say 2/3?) of US bills, particularly hundreds, are circulating outside of the US. Frankly, we LOVE this phenomenon, because for each amount that's printed, the government takes out an interest-bearing security which is cashed in as the note is destroyed. Of course, it's not "the same" security that's cashed in when a bill is destroyed, but a corresponding number are redeemed as bills are taken out of circulation (which probably has a lot more to do with removing currency from circulation than "the bills wore out"). So basically, the widespread use of US currency outside the US amounts to a free loan to us by everyone else in the world.

So of course we're interested in maintaining this state of affairs. But this isn't the cause for *not* collecting old bills. It is the cause for *designing new ones*. If our bills were easy to forge, do you think they would remain the preferred currency of the world, and yes, the underworld as well? No! Drug dealers don't want to have their money devalued any more than anyone else. And it's partly (perhapts primarily) their demand that keeps the amount of US currency so high. Drug dealers probably prefer the new bills when they can be had -- they don't forge money from whole cloth, they launder real money that people have given them illegally.

So basically, the old money does come out of ciculation, just not all at once. I for one have noticed it getting rarer; this past weekend at the casino was the first time I'd seen old 20's and 100's in a long time (in the sheer volume of currency I saw, it was inevitable to spot a few). The money with increased security features is in demand because it's in almost everyone's best interest to have it that way, from US citizens to foreign drug dealers.

Re:Hmmm

[irn_bru]

It's a brief trade in period for use IN SHOPS, in the UK. Bank notes issued by the Bank of England will always be acepted by the Bank of England, even if they're 400 years old.

The point is, if the only place you can cash in your ancient pounds is directly through the issuer, you're not likely to try and pass off counterfeits.

Re:Hmmm

[clambake]

Well, they aren't concered about people like you, that's chump change... what they are concerned about is when somone shows up at a bank with 40 million in old $20's and wants a cashier's check...

Re:Hmmm

[kfx]

Bank notes issued by the Bank of England will always be acepted by the Bank of England, even if they're 400 years old.

However, only a fool would cash in a 400 year-old note, as I'm sure it would be worth significantly more than that to a collector if it was still in good enough contidion to cash in.

Re:Hmmm

[blate]

Actually, if you believe the folks at the US Treasury and the Secret Service, counterfeiting *is* a major problem. The amount of fake currency produced each year is on the order of tens of billions of dollar. Granted, there are trillions of dollars worth of cash in float at any given time... however, every fake dollar out there does "devalue" the others and hampers the government's ability to regulate the money supply.

Apparently, some countries actively float counterfeit dollars in an attempt to destabalize or otherwise harm the US economy. While, year over year, their contribution is probably in the noise, I suppose it could build up over time.

Your overall point, IMHO, is well-taken, however: changing the money is rather futile, since the older bill patterns will be legal tender for many more decades, if not centuries. Sure, the changes make it slightly harder to pull this off in, say, 30 years, but, overall, the money could be better spent (or even better, not spent) on other things.

Then again, if you're the agency who prints money, perhaps you don't worry too much about how much money you spend. >:-)

Re:Hmmm

[Guppy06]

"Unlike other countries who routinely decommission monetary instruments (with a brief trade-in period), the United States refuses to do so. Why?"

We do, we just don't see a need to force the general population to conform to the new rules. As old $20's come back into the banks, they're sent back to the Federal Reserve where they are destroyed.

"Everyone all over the world knows if they stuff chests full of american currency inside their walls, it will still be good in the future."

That probably has more to do with the strength and reliability of the US dollar as a currency in general than with the printing practices of the Bureau of Engraving and Printing in particular.

"Why do you think Saddam had so many dollars stashed?"

Perhaps because crude oil is bought and sold in the world market in prices in US dollars? That, and the Iraqi Dinar wasn't worth the paper it was printed on outside of his borders.

Re:Hmmm

[Mac Degger]

Just wait...a number of countries in the middle east are contemplating (or already have) switching over to the euro for their oil money. Iraq for one petitioned the UN in 2000. It's gonna stir up the international money markets quite some when this happens multilaterally.

Re:Hmmm

[mpe]

It is my understanding that British currency and presumably most other countries is legal tender forever. Possibly not the coins, but notes can be exchanged at the Bank of England or wherever at face value for new ones even twenty years on.

But you can't use old currenct for any transactions. You have to exchange it for new with the issuing bank. Whereas old US paper money can be used anywhere which accepts US dollers.

Re:Hmmm

[armb]

And some bleach and some small value notes, probably.

http://money.cnn.com/2003/05/12/news/economy/twe nt y/index.htm

Any sensible person would make the larger notes larger - stops that working, makes life easier for blind and partially sighted people, easier for sorting notes, but no, that would be un-American.

At least the colours will start being different.

Re:Hmmm

[BenTels0]

You're right, that is stupid -- there's absolutely no point in introducing new currency for security reasons if you're not going to replace the old currency....

Although, about the counterfeiting, I wouldn't be too sure it isn't rampant. After all, the U.S. Secret Service was founded to combat counterfeiting at a time when the amount of counterfeit money was estimated to be a third of the total portion of money available.

Re:Hmmm

[BenTels0]

No no, that is not correct -- "old" money is not legal tender anymore. You can often exchange it for legal tender at face value at the central bank (up to a certain point) but you cannot purchase goods for it anymore.

As for the "national-to-Euro" echange that happened here in the Zone, there is also a time limit on exchanges. For old Dutch Guilders, you can exchange the coins until 01/01/2007 and notes until 01/01/2032. After those dates, they're just pieces of metal and prettily-printed bits of paper.

Re:Hmmm

[ImaLamer]

Funny as it may be, you wouldn't be arrested under the USPA. The Patriot act lets them tap your phone because you downloaded that evil pinko RedHat 9 ISO, but you broke other laws...

I guess that is the sad thing. The Treasury Dept., specifically the Secret Service would get you. Chances are they know it was you who did it - being that the ink you used matches one their many, many, samples of inks from around the world and you own that brand of printer (they got the FBI to check that ditty out from their Carni^H^H^H^H^H investigation).

Seriously, I'm not knocking you... but it's sad that today's youth doesn't know who would investigate.

My g.friend works at a bank, although in the offices/phone center, she told a concerned customer to simply spend the money they thought to be counterfeit. Then I said that wasn't a good idea and then she remarked: "I should have told her to call the FBI!", no, no, no... although the Feds love to step on city and state cases this isn't one for them. (Note: I guess, that is what they do in the movies /"don't give me that jur-is-my-diction crap ... The orders were for your men's protection."/ ).

Re:Hmmm

[Surak]

Funny as it may be, you wouldn't be arrested under the USPA. The Patriot act lets them tap your phone because you downloaded that evil pinko RedHat 9 ISO, but you broke other laws... ...or they tap your phone because you were talking about counterfeiting...

Seriously, I'm not knocking you... but it's sad that today's youth doesn't know who would investigate.

Actually, I'm well aware of who would investigate. And I only wish I was 'today's youth' ... at best I'm 'yesterday's youth' or perhaps 'last millenium's youth' ;)

I also know that most color copiers add a sort of 'digital watermark' to anything copied off the machine that can be tracked back to that specific machine. What I've been wondering is -- now that color inkjet printers are capable of producing very good quality conterfeit bills, do these devices do something similar? And if so is this a function of the printer driver or the firmware in the printer?

Re:Hmmm

[CentrX]

What do you mean you cannot purchase goods with it anymore? If it's possible to exchange it at the central bank, why wouldn't a seller accept it as payment?

Re:Hmmm

[BenTels0]

What do you mean you cannot purchase goods with it anymore?

Errr... I don't see how I can put it any clearer than that... Over here, whenever we've had a new currency introduced to replace an old one (e.g euro for guilder or the new fl.100 note for the old one) there has been a short transition period after which the old currency has simply stopped being legal tender. After the transition, stores no longer accept the old stuff and except to the Dutch Central Bank it's just paper with some pretty printing on it.

If it's possible to exchange it at the central bank, why wouldn't a seller accept it as payment?

Because it is no longer currency as backed by the (in this case) Kingdom of The Netherlands. Any and all persons are beholden in this country to accept the official currency of the land as legal tender in a monetary exchange, but they are not beholden to accept anything else -- and most people don't. Of course it's not forbidden: a shopkeeper CAN agree to an exchange for another object that he deems of value (printed paper that used to be money, for instance) just as much as you can agree with me to swap your bicycle for my walkman. But most people do insist upon payment with official money.

Re:Hmmm

[TKinias]

scripsit ImaLamer:

The Patriot act lets them tap your phone because you downloaded that evil pinko RedHat 9 ISO, but you broke other laws...

Jeez, just wait 'til I start running Red Flag...

BTW, anyone know of any good GPL'd nuke simulation software?

Re:Hmmm

[TKinias]

scripsit DrXym:

It is my understanding that British currency and presumably most other countries is legal tender forever.

I dunno about most countries, but I've got a drawer full of Greek notes that became worthless just a few months after Euroization. Already in June of last year I couldn't exchange them even at a bank.

Have old bills?

[Joe the Lesser]

Send them to me and I'll dispose of them in an environmentally safe way.

Re:Have old bills?

[squarefish]

how much?

nobody seems to recycle anything for free anymore, but as long as you promise

Re:Have old bills?

[Liora]

I wonder if they'll ever do a complete face-lift on our moulah so that old bills become worthless, as they did sometime a long time ago... my grandmother had a few of the really old and now worthless (save for collectors) bills. Have other countries done this? Given that ours will be getting new looks every 7-10 years, will our old twenties (the ones that do not look like play money) be pulled out of circulation and eventually be denied as legal tender?

What do they do with old bills and coinage? Do they recycle it? Does anyone know?

Re:Have old bills?

[I Love Soup]

I've encountered money exchangers in various countries that would not accept the older, smaller-headed bills. Some were in Europe, some were in Central America.

Re:Have old bills?

[Planesdragon]

What do they do with old bills and coinage? Do they recycle it? Does anyone know?

AFAIK, they melt down old coins and re-use them (they're mostly just raw scrap anyway), and they burn the bills (which are just colored cotton & paper anyway.)

Re:Have old bills?

[yy1]

Old bills are destroyed, shredded and incinerated I believe.

As for our money being worthless, I doubt that would ever happen, just that it might be harder to "spend" it after a while.

I had a few bills that were old enough not to have the security strip in them, I had to take them to a bank because noone would take them.

As far as I know any FDIC bank should take any legal tender, even if they have to send it on to the Fed.

If you got confederate money, I think you are screwed tho. 8P

Re:Have old bills?

[weave]

United States currency doesn't expire. See my previous reply for why.

Now if you have a fiver that looks like this you might have to take it to a bank to get it swapped, but you'd be much better off taking it to a collector and getting more than face value for it! :)

Re:Have old bills?

[WegianWarrior]

While I'm not sure what other nations does, I expect most of them to do something simular to how Norway does it:

Norges Bank withdraws certain notes and coins from circulation by issuing regulations, which are publicly announced in the Legal Gazette. The Bank also runs advertisements in Norway's largest dailies to inform the public. The notes and coins continue to be legal tender for one year from the date of the public announcement. According to the Act on Norges Bank and the Monetary System, the Bank is obliged to redeem notes and coins for another ten years.

The public is encouraged to turn in withdrawn banknotes and coins by contacting banks or Norges Bank in Oslo before the deadline.

Norges Bank will, however, redeem withdrawn banknotes and coins for some time after the statutory deadline. After this, it may be necessary to apply for ex gratia payment for expired notes and coins. The application for ex gratia payment must contain information about why the notes and coins were not redeemed within the deadline date.

So you got eleven years to take those notes out of your mattres, walk down to the bank and exchange them into newer, safer notes. Or you could do like everyone else and keep the money in a bankaccount where they'll earn you interest. After all, private bank deposits are garanteed by the nation - even if the bank should topple your money is safe there... or rather, here.

Re:Have old bills?

[richy freeway]

In the UK when they bring out a new design for a note (bill) they run them side by side for a period (A year perhaps? Don't quote me on that) to give you time to exchange the old notes at the bank. After this period is up the old notes are no longer legal tender and you can't do anything with them other than hang on to them for collection value in the future. Same applies with coins.

Info about British notes : http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/index.htm

Info about British coins : http://www.royalmint.com/talk/default.asp

Re:Have old bills?

[DarKrow]

Incinerated? Yeah, some.

The rest is repackaged and sold back.

http://www.oldcash.com/photos.html

I've seen bags for sale at the U.S. Mint in Philadelphia, too.

Re:Have old bills?

[KingAdrock]

I doubt that is true. If it is, I'm on the next plane over so I can rip all of the bills into about sixty distinct pieces and trade each in for full face value.

Re:Have old bills?

[mgs1000]

When I was travelling to Taiwan earlier this year, the banks there would just give you more for the new twentys than for the old ones.

Re:Have old bills?

[number11]

What do they do with old [US] bills and coinage?

They shred the bills. And sell bales to novelty vendors, who repackage it into smaller bags with clever sayings printed on them (think we can slashdot compuserve?), who sell them to you in exchange for unshredded bills, in a process akin to perpetual motion.

Coins don't wear out very fast. What ones do, probably get melted down. In the old days, before laminated coins, they could just melt them down and make new coins with them.

Re:Have old bills?

[richy freeway]

You doubt this to be true? Uhhhhm... Ok then, I must have been mistaken during the last 24 years of my life. My Bad :| Why would they exchange a ripped up note? If that is case, why wouldn't I rip up the note into 60 pieces during it's life and exchange it for 60 full value notes? Or not?

Re:Have old bills?

[cos(0)]

The only way it would be remotely perpetual is if you could sell a bag of thirty dollars worth of shredded currency for thirty dollars. You'd be lucky to sell it for five.

Re:Have old bills?

[NickFitz]

I can rip all of the bills into about sixty distinct pieces and trade each in for full face value

IIRC, the rule is that more than 50% of the note must be present, and the serial number must be decipherable.

7-10 years?!?

[Phroggy]

Holy crap, redesigning bills every 7-10 years? What the hell are they thinking?

When the current $20 bills came out, I heard of people having trouble using them, because apparently a few people somehow didn't hear that new bills were being released so obviously thought they were counterfeit. The current bills are pretty obvious, though, now that everybody knows about them. Now they're saying there will be subtle changes every few years, so in another decade there will be like 4 different versions of the $20 bill, ALL LEGAL. If you saw a fifth version, which was counterfeit, would it be obvious to you?

Yeah, they're including new security features. That's cool and all, but how often do people really check them? Sure, on a $100, people check. On $20 they usually don't. They still go by appearance and texture, just like they always have.

Re:7-10 years?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know about that 4 different versions thing... according to this, the average lifespan of a 20 dollar bill is 4 years. Two different types could be in circulation at the same time, but 4?
For that matter, when was the last time you saw an "old-style" 20 from before the last redesign?

Re:7-10 years?!?

[Havokmon]

For that matter, when was the last time you saw an "old-style" 20 from before the last redesign?

Yesterday. No foolin.

And not everybody keeps their money in banks.

Re:7-10 years?!?

[meloneg]

For that matter, when was the last time you saw an "old-style" 20 from before the last redesign?
Anywhere from two to six a week. I work waiting tables in a restaraunt on the weekends. In two shifts a week I usually see a few. Probably one in ten of the twenties I handle.
It's amazing what percentage of the population buys lunch on a credit card. Though check cards are the majority of them.

Re:7-10 years?!?

[Gordonjcp]

What's wrong with different styles of banknotes? In the UK there are perhaps five or six different styles of each denomination of note, issued by different banks. They are all roughly the same colour as each other though.

Re:7-10 years?!?

[EinarH]

Now they're saying there will be subtle changes every few years, so in another decade there will be like 4 different versions of the $20 bill, ALL LEGAL. If you saw a fifth version, which was counterfeit, would it be obvious to you?

[trollmode]
You live in a banana republic with almost an banana economy; so what did you expect? ;-)

Several different versions of the same bill is so thirdworldish.
[/trollmode]

Re:7-10 years?!?

[RealAlaskan]

When the current $20 bills came out, I heard of people having trouble using them, because apparently a few people somehow didn't hear that new bills were being released so obviously thought they were counterfeit. Look here. I don't think that the ``new look'' will be a big deal: it's not that new.

Now they're saying there will be subtle changes every few years, so in another decade there will be like 4 different versions of the $20 bill, ALL LEGAL. If you saw a fifth version, which was counterfeit, would it be obvious to you?

Here I think you've found a real problem. People DON'T look at their money. It's surprising how few people even check the $50's and $100's. Right now there are two versions of every bill, in 2004, it will be three, and just as you say, NO ONE is going to know what the newest versions look like until they see them.

That leads to a sick-but-funny possibility: some merchant takes a ``new'' $20. Later, you come into his shop, spend your ``new'' $20, and he calls the cops, who haul you away for counterfeitting. The problem? The first $20 was counterfeit, and yours was real, and neither the merchant nor the cops knew the difference.

Since no American is educated about their money, it could happen. When the new bills with the watermarks and threads came out, I had to explain what they were to most of the store clerks who noticed. I only knew about them because I'm a coin collector.

Re:7-10 years?!?

[ocelotbob]

Paper money doesn't last long enough for that to happen. How many series 1993 notes do you have? How about 1989? 1985? Really, people will only have to worry about keeping track of maybe 2 or 3 notes at the most as the old ones get too beat up to be usable anymore. Average lifespan of paper money is only a couple years, redesigning is hardly going to make an impact on most people

Re:7-10 years?!?

[Wyatt Earp]

The average life of a dollar bill is eighteen months Five dollar bills last about fifteen months, with twenties remaining in circulation for two years. Ten dollar bills have about the same lifespan as singles do, and the larger denomination bills can last up to eight years.

I've seen mid 1920s 100s and 50s in circulation in the past.

In my wallet I have
1999 - 1 dollar
2001 - 1 dollar
2001 - 1 dollar
2001 - 1 dollar - stinky
2001 - 1 dollar
1999 - 10 dollar
1999 - 20 dollar

Re:7-10 years?!?

[AKnightCowboy]

The current bills are pretty obvious, though, now that everybody knows about them.

My $20 bills already look like this new one since everytime I seem to have one the god damn cashiers run a highlighter over it. What, pink and yellow highlighting is the new anti-counterfeiting technique? I thought defacing currency was a federal offense.

Re:7-10 years?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

What's wrong with different styles of banknotes? In the UK there are perhaps five or six different styles of each denomination of note, issued by different banks. They are all roughly the same colour as each other though.

Specifically, banknotes in England and Wales are issued by the Bank of England. [Which is more or less equivalent to the federal reserve.] The notes change every few years as extra anti-forgery features get introduced - the most recent change was the new £5 note, which is about a year old.

In Scotland, notes are issued by the Bank of Scotland and the Royal Bank of Scotland. Apart from issuing notes, those are normal banks. The notes from each bank look slightly different, but have the same size and colour, so it's obvious what denomination it is. The Clydesdale bank also issues notes, but they're not as common.

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/ has details of the English notes, and http://www.scotbanks.org.uk/design.htm the Scottish ones.

You can use English notes in Scotland, and Scottish ones in England, although merchants tend to retain them so they don't generally circulate.
Pedants may wish to know that English banknotes are Legal Tender in England and Wales, but not in Scotland. Scottish banknotes aren't Legal Tender anywhere - the only legal tender in Scotland for unlimited amounts are the £1 and £2 coins. Pedants may also wish to know that legal tender has a very narrow definition, and isn't really very useful in most cases...

Re:7-10 years?!?

[Milo Fungus]

Yeah, they're including new security features. That's cool and all, but how often do people really check them?

That's the most troublesome thing about it, IMO. From the article:

Thomas Ferguson, director of the Bureau of Engraving and Printing, acknowledged the new bill would not discourage counterfeiters from this process [leaching], but he said there would still be features that, with a quick look, could distinguish a "leached" note as counterfeit.

"It will still have a different watermark and security strip. You could tell the difference in about 15 seconds," Ferguson said. (emphasis mine)

15 seconds?! Imagine how long you would be standing in line at Wal-Mart if the checkers took 15 seconds on every $20 bill they saw! 15 seconds adds up quickly, especially the day after Thanksgiving or Boxing Day. Another thing is that this guy is an expert. He's probably among the most knowledgeable white hat money makers out there. If it takes him 15 seconds, it's bound to take Suzy Dropout, the Wal-Mart checker, a bit longer (if she does it properly, that is).

As an aside, I spent a couple of years in the UK and learned to really appreciate their money system. US notes are BORING. It's good to see more colors on our new ones. Maybe they'll also change the relative sizes of the notes? (Not that changing the sizes would necessarily thwart counterfeiting, but it was a nice touch to the UK system, IMO.)

Re:7-10 years?!?

[Gortbusters.org]

Since no American is educated about their money, it could happen.

Well hey, a lot of americans aren't educated about a lot of things, why should money be any different?

Re:7-10 years?!?

[stratjakt]

That leads to a sick-but-funny possibility: some merchant takes a ``new'' $20. Later, you come into his shop, spend your ``new'' $20, and he calls the cops, who haul you away for counterfeitting. The problem? The first $20 was counterfeit, and yours was real, and neither the merchant nor the cops knew the difference.

When I still lived Canada, this happened to me. I went to an ATM, took out some cash, and walked next door to McDonalds.

I ordered my QP with Cheese, and handed the clerk a 20. She then went back and got her manager, both of them gawked at the bill, and then the manager tells me she cant accept it.

This pissed me off, since I don't like people accusing me of a felony. The funny thing was, the currency was at least a year old at the time. I guess McDonalds employees dont often see anything bigger than a five. (Having worked there when I was 14 I can attest to that).

Anyways, I told the manager to either accept the bill, or call the cops. It says right on the currency, "This note is legal tender for all debts public and private". Technically, that means, you either accept it as payment, or agree not to be paid. (I've heard of assholes running around with 1000 dollar bills demanding that if a clerk doesnt accept it they dont have to pay at all)

Now where am I going with this story? Oh yeah, she called my bluff and called the cops. The cop came and asked what the problem was, and she walked around the corner with him all in private like she just busted some great counterfeiting ring. The cop, visibly annoyed, pulled one out of his wallet, held them side by side for McTwitwich, and said there was nothing wrong with the bill.

So then I decided I wanted Arbys. I didnt really want Arbys. Noone really wants Arbys. But thats what I said, and I left.

People are educated about their money. You read the article just now didnt you? If people are too stupid to educate themselves, thats their own fault.

Re:7-10 years?!?

[CausticWindow]

I've worked as a storeclerk, and while you don't have time to thorougly examine each and every note, you have a uv light placed by the register so that you can drag the note past it in the same motion that you put it into the register.

While I was working in this store, there was a wave of forgery in my hometown, so that we were urged to check every note we were handed. I can tell you, this wasn't very popular with the more "upstanding" customers. I was almost physically attacked by and older, obviously wealthy man. He thought it absurd that a man of his standing would be paying with counterfeit money. I politely told him that he could have been given forged money by another store, but this only enraged him further. Luckily, his wife was there to hold him back, but I never saw him in the store again.

Re:7-10 years?!?

[PhilHibbs]

Your bills are all the same size? Good grief, how do visually-impaired people cope? I suppose I should have deduced that from the mention in the article of the technique of bleaching and reprinting smaller bills as larger denominations. It's totally impossible with ours.

Re:7-10 years?!?

[MindStalker]

Just cause he prints money for the so called government of the United States, how does this make him white hat, he is still taking cloth and printing words on it to magically make then worth some imaginary value. Its not as if you can even turn your money in for gold anymore. /end humorus rant.

Re:7-10 years?!?

[Saige]

Visually impared people? In the US? They're not impared, they're just lazy mooches who can't be bothered to put effort into seeing. They shouldn't be able to tell the bills apart if they're not going to work hard enough to see clearly like all the other hard working Americans.

And don't get me started on all those people who are in wheelchairs because they are too lazy to walk. Don't give me that wussy politically-correct "they're paralyzed" crap either. That's just a lie of the liberal media!!!

Re:7-10 years?!?

[eggstasy]

I guess you must think euros are children's toys as well. All our notes are pretty and colourful, and they're usually worth more or less the same as dollars.

Re:7-10 years?!?

[precize]

You idiot, that's a special kind of ink in those markers.

http://www.howstuffworks.com/question212.htm

Re:7-10 years?!?

[Alan Partridge]

When I used to work at Majestic Wine Warehouses, our company policy was to NOT accept Scottish banknotes due to risk of counterfeit (through unfamiliarity).

Re:7-10 years?!?

[PhilHibbs]

What the hell is Boxing Day?

The day after Christmas Day.

Colorful currency = children's toy.

I think it's a question of what you're used to. Our currency is fairly colourful, but the subtlety and complexity is more than one would expect in play money. The Euro looks a little toy-like to me, but as I said, maybe it is just familiarity after all.

Re:7-10 years?!?

[Qube]

Boxing Day is a national holiday in the UK (and I think other Commonwealth places) - 26th December. The "day after Boxing Day" referred to is when all the big sales start.

Nothing wrong with having some colour either. Bank of England notes don't have lots of colour, but you can tell the difference between each without a second thought. US currency just seems the same note with a different number on each. And you lot need more coins! :)

Re:7-10 years?!?

[WegianWarrior]

Yeah, they're including new security features. That's cool and all, but how often do people really check them?
That's the most troublesome thing about it, IMO. ...goes on quoting the bit about leaching, ie washing away the ink to print a higher value note on the same paper.

I'm not going to make any friends here today, but honestly I find US notes to be boring and unimagninative. All the same size, rougthly the same design (even thought that is changing for the better with this new 20) and - from an european, or rather norwegian, point of view - all to easy to make a passable, if not perfect, copy off.

Lets compare this to a currence which I'm very familiar with, ie the Norwegian notes (click on each note to bring up more information on each) and coins. While the coins could be counterfitted relatively easily, the cost of doing so would mean you would spend more money than you made. As for the notes, all except the fifty has more or less the same securit feature as the 200 kroner note (roughtly worth 29½USD as of today). The fifty will be updated soon I guess, to give it a Intaglio print and foil hologram stripe like the others have. The amount of counterfeited notes has dropped significantly since the introduction of this single measure... as it is impossible to scan, let alone print, without specialised equipment.

So it's (relatively) easy to make money that is hard to counterfeit, easy to tell apart, easy to see if it the real deal, impossible to 'leach', and - to quote my girlfriend from West Virginia - looks very pretty. The only thing stopping you is the inertia in the system...

Off topic, but the dollar has been falling like a rock the last few days... good news for me who's just about to go on vacation to the US, bad news for Norway, who earn a lot of cash selling oil...

Re:7-10 years?!?

[10am-bedtime]

though sometimes more more than less less.

Re:7-10 years?!?

[Xerithane]

I was almost physically attacked by and older, obviously wealthy man. He thought it absurd that a man of his standing would be paying with counterfeit money. I politely told him that he could have been given forged money by another store, but this only enraged him further. Luckily, his wife was there to hold him back, but I never saw him in the store again.

It's even worse when it happens to you. Sometimes you get counterfeit money and don't realize it. When I was younger I got a counterfeit $10 from a store that accepted it. Didn't realize it was counterfeit until I tried to use it at another store. I told them where I got it from, they gave me a real $10 for it and talked to the cops. End of my involvement... but it was still kinda "cool" in the neat experience for a 10 year old boy.

Makes me wonder the best way to pass counterfeit bills is to pay your neighbor kids $10 to wash your car, mow the lawn, etc. Everybody takes pity on the poor kid who earned a fake $10.

Re:7-10 years?!?

[LetterJ]

He said highlighters and I'd bet that's what he meant. See, just because there ARE markers that have the special ink on them doesn't mean that some of the idiots in gas stations and other places aren't using highlighters instead, blissfully ignorant of WHY they are using some marker. They just swipe it with whatever marker is handy and put it in the drawer. I've seen it happen.

Re:7-10 years?!?

[blibbleblobble]

"that's a special kind of ink in those markers.[for checking currency]"

Am I just thinking like a cracker here, or would it not be easier to counterfeit the detection pen, replacing the one in the store with one which always marks red? Until such time as they test the pen on white paper, that store would become vulnerable to currency printed without the official ink.

Re:7-10 years?!?

[Paul Komarek]

We're (Americans) also the disgrace of coin minting. The Canadians prooved it by creating a two-dollar (Canadian) coin so cool that the US has been unable to respond in kind.

-Paul Komarek

Re:7-10 years?!?

[jcronen]

Last year, I got a series 1950 $20 out of an ATM.

They're hard to find, but there is a lot of older currency still in circulation.

Of course, in this particular case, I can't be sure the bank didn't just screw up and miss this particular bill in the replacement they are required to do.

Re:7-10 years?!?

[Havokmon]

Of course, in this particular case, I can't be sure the bank didn't just screw up and miss this particular bill in the replacement they are required to do.

Having worked for a bank in the past, I can't say that I know everything that happens on the teller line, but I can't believe they would actually check bills.

I bet they leave it to the larger banks and the Fed to do the sorting.

Re:7-10 years?!?

[Zebbers]

umm being legal tender for all debts doesnt mean they need to accept it, can. can != must

Re:7-10 years?!?

[hesiod]

> Moronic Amerikans need to be educated.

How insightful, except that when insulting someone by claiming they are stupid, make sure you spell the name of their country correctly. Especially one that's simple, as opposed to Phreokliektenstav or something.

Re:7-10 years?!?

[10am-bedtime]

well, i'm an american (so far -- perhaps that will change in the future), and above all i know my dishonor was not participating in the political process of the country for about a decade. in many ways i focused too much on free software as an aid to all of society, and neglected to DTRT in my phsyical community. i hope in the next few years to return to balance.

Re:7-10 years?!?

[SuiteSisterMary]

Hmmm. Somebody should market the 'sealed' cash register.

Bills and coins are placed into slots, where they're read in, scanned for authenticity, then stored (different slot for each denomination) and change is made by the machine; if the sale is 25 bucks, and they hand you a fifty, the machine spits out a twenty and a five.

Allows for scanning, which is hidden from the customer, tracking of amounts in/out, automatic notification of when more change is required, makes accounting/balancing easier, and reduces accidental short/over changing.

Re:7-10 years?!?

[Leigh13]

When I still lived Canada...
...I ordered my QP with Cheese, and handed the clerk a 20.

I thought they used the metric system in Canada. Don't they call the quarter-pounder with cheese a Royale with cheese?

Re:7-10 years?!?

[devnullify]

Nope (the Quarter Pounder is called a Quarter Pounder), obviously the switch here was recent enough that McD's decided to keep the old name.

Re:7-10 years?!?

[TGK]

That design would be even more popular at any resturant charging less than 20 for an entree. I've worked a few and the amount of theft that goes on is astounding. The biggest draw for this sort of thing woudl be keeping the employees out of the cash drawer.

Where's my mod points when I need em?

Re:7-10 years?!?

[Vellmont]

Actually, changing the size of the bills probbably would thwart counterfeiting. According to the article one common method now used is to bleach the ink out of low denomination bills and re-print them with higher denominations. If larger valued bills were larger in size you wouldn't be able to do this.

Re:7-10 years?!?

[Oliver Wendell Jones]

Wow, I'm sure this posting violates the Patriot Act. Better pack your bags and pick your favorite pair of clean underwear.

Re:7-10 years?!?

[Paul Komarek]

Have you ever seen a "two-ney"? It rocks. Gold and silver colored, with a cool border. Our quarters are lame in comparison. I've been told our mint doesn't have the right machines to even come close to the $2 Canadian coin.

And what happened to those new dollar coins we had here? I had two, and spent them. I haven't seen any more since, and that was quite a while ago.

-Paul Komarek

Re:7-10 years?!?

[nmg]

I'm pretty sure I ordered a Quarter Pounder with Cheese when I was in London. Of course, maybe the cashier was just used to stupid Americans and didn't say anything.

Re:7-10 years?!?

[damiam]

two-dollar (Canadian) coin ... respond in kind.

We already have the penny, that's pretty close...

Re:7-10 years?!?

[Piquan]

You say this happened in Canada, but you used American money? I live nowhere near that border; what's up with that?

Anyway, regarding the guys with $1000 bills: The "legal tender" doesn't mean that somebody has to accept it, except the Federal Reserve. If the seller and the buyer can't agree on an instrument of payment, then there's just no sale. Yeah, the guy with the $1000 bill wouldn't have to pay-- but the store doesn't have to give him their product!

By the way: the $1000 bill hasn't been issued since 1969, and the Federal Reserve pulls them from circulation.

Also see Snopes on legal tender, and the US Treasury FAQ.

Re:7-10 years?!?

[cicadia]

I thought they used the metric system in Canada.

Yes they do.

Don't they call the quarter-pounder with cheese a Royale with cheese?

No they don't. Watch the movie again; that's France.

Of course, the last time the Canadian $20 was changed was back around 1986, and people still knew what a pound was back then :)

But then, Canadian bills have never said "This note is legal tender for all debts public and private", so the whole anecdote could just be made up.

Re:7-10 years?!?

[kfx]

Yesterday. No foolin.

And not everybody keeps their money in banks.

I saw two old-style twenties just a few hours ago, when I withdrew money from the bank to pay some bills...

Re:7-10 years?!?

[mindstrm]

Remember, though, the reason every bill isn't checked thoroughly in the US is because counterfeitting is not that common.

If it is known to be more common in an area, people DO check more carefully, it's as simple as that. When you want to know if a bill is real or not, you will be glad those features aer there.
If you live in the US, you won't see the real need for this because counterfeit US bills are a much larger problem outside the US.

Re:7-10 years?!?

[Arthur Dent]

That's not a highlighter -- that's a pen with iodine ink. Iodine reacts with the wood starch in normal paper to form a black stain. It does not react with the fibre based paper used for printing currency. If you want to have some fun, spray the currency in your wallet with starch.

Re:7-10 years?!?

[RadRafe]

Canadian bills do not say "THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL DEBTS PUBLIC AND PRIVATE".
They say "CE BILLET A COURS LÉGAL [tab] THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER".

Damn slashcode for not allowing long whitespace! I want tabs and multible spaces! Arrgh...

Re:7-10 years?!?

[kmac06]

My uncle is blind, and can handle money just fine. He folds different bills into different shapes or puts them in different parts of his wallet. When he is getting change from something, he just asks the guy what bill is what and puts it in the appropriate spot.

Re:7-10 years?!?

[mindstrm]

Well, askign them to accept it, or call the cops was a good move, but only because it would embarass them and make a good story for you. However, the "Legal Tender" phrase does NOT mean they have to accept it. It means that it's legal to pay down a debt.

If you owe me $100, and give me five 20s, I can't refuse to accept it because it's legal for the payment of that debt.

However, ANYONE, and ANY business, has the legal right to ask for exact change only.

Re:7-10 years?!?

[mindstrm]

Canada has $1000 bills (may have been discontinued recently, not sure) We don't have a federal reserve. He's talking about Canadian money.

You are correct though... nobody has to make change. They just can't refuse to let you pay a debt with smaller bills... so if you owe $2000, and I give you two $1000 bills, you can't refuse saying "Hey those are too big I don't want them" and then sue me for not paying you money I owe.

If I owe you $500, you can demand exact change.

In some countries, there are limits to this, for instance, at one point in HK, you could use the one cent bill (yes, really was one), but right on the bill it says "legal tender for the payment of any mount up to $2".. the point being, you don't have to accept a truckload of them.

Re:7-10 years?!?

[Guppy06]

"Here I think you've found a real problem. People DON'T look at their money."

First off, people don't look at their money because of the image of reliability in the currency. Few people suspect they may be carrying conterfeit bills. When was the last time you saw a counterfeit bill?

Secondly, the whole point of changing the design like this (beyond the "better, safer" mantra the Fed is chanting) is to get people to actually look at the currency. Counterfeitting is easier to catch if the general population ask themselves "Is this bill real?" more often.

"Since no American is educated about their money, it could happen."

Articles like this in the major media outlet helps. Also I seem to recall cardboard signs in banks from the Secret Service detailing the security features of the bills (watermark, fluroescent strip, security threads, etc.)

Re:7-10 years?!?

[thogard]

Why would I want a $2 coin? It would just increase the inflation rate of everything sold in a vending machines (anything less than $2 will go for $2 and stuff that was $2.5 would go for $4). No thanks.

Australia has $1 and $2 coins (which happen to be about the same size but opposite of what New Zealand uses) an I prefer to carry $10 in one dollar bills than $10 in coins.

The US money should be different sizes. That would stop the bleaching issue. Just make the $1 bill smaller than the $100.

Aussies use plastic money. Its very strong and almost impossable to destroy. The only problem it has is that it tends to tear when its been soaked with beer. Its also easy to counterfit according to the signs at all the fast food places.

Re:7-10 years?!?

[thogard]

Are you sure they didn't find a collector that wanted it? I expect a fake $10 would be worth more than $10. Its the fake $100 that aren't worth anything. The US mint gave Iran some of the old printing presses and Iran made billions of good fake $100 (did someone remember to take the plates out?).

The last time I was in Egypt, they wouldn't take real US $100 bills. They prefer the fake ones because thats what they see all the time.

Re:7-10 years?!?

[whereiswaldo]

Why would I want a $2 coin? It would just increase the inflation rate of everything sold in a vending machines (anything less than $2 will go for $2 and stuff that was $2.5 would go for $4). No thanks.

You're right, actually. And you forgot bus fair. :)

But I have to laugh at this story, because I've heard a number of Americans laugh at Canada's "monopoly money" over the years and now coloured money is coming to the US! Though I have to admit the new Canadian $10 bills are a little funky.

Re:7-10 years?!?

[kaiidth]

Weird... when I worked at Threshers the company policy was to accept anything with Sterling written on it. However, since the company policy also included hiring outstandingly 'budget' management, you'd be amazed at the sheer number of 20s with Faraday on that got through in an average day, too.

And since the company was too cheap to spring for any form of checking device (UV, pens, anything) the only counterfeit checking that actually took place was 1) looking for a watermark, 2) ripping the note slightly to find the little metal strip and 3) the new notes, when rubbed against a piece of paper, are supposed to leave a smear of appropriately coloured ink. All of which takes time. Which means that if you want to use counterfeit money, try Threshers at around seven-thirty PM on a friday when there's a queue of twenty-five people. Nobody'll check.

Re:7-10 years?!?

[PhilHibbs]

There must be some physical difference then. On UK notes, there is a small shape that is of a different texture than the rest of the note - the £5 has a circle, £10 has a diamond, £20 has a square, and the £50 has a triangle.

Re:7-10 years?!?

[blibbleblobble]

"Wow, I'm sure this posting violates the Patriot Act. Better pack your bags and pick your favorite pair of clean underwear."

Luckily I don't live in a fascist country.

Re:7-10 years?!?

[Dr. Manhattan]

Well, back in '86 I got a $20 bill from 1937. I still have it. Looks almost like the pre-1990's twenty, but the printing's a bit different, and (I swear to God), the trees in the picture of the Treasury building on the back are smaller.

Someone actually updated that picture between 1937 and 1986.

Re:7-10 years?!?

[jcronen]

As is the fact that several different versions of the same coin is so thirdworldish.

Oh wait...

The new $20 bill ...

[Shant3030]

I've always been in favor of having a hologram on our currency. It seems to be an effective way to curb counterfitting. Without a change of the shape and surface area of the bill (ie. a clear patch with a hologram), just changing the colors on a bill is more of a nuisance than a deterrent.

Re:The new $20 bill ...

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

I've always been in favor of having a hologram on our currency.

That's right, Microsoft have done that for years and they've never been copied. Ever.

Re:The new $20 bill ...

[El_Servas]

That's not the point. You can't pay with xeroxed bills, but you sure can install windoze with a burned copy.

I'm guessing the cost for the bill would rise with an hologram.

Re:The new $20 bill ...

[uberdave]

My current browser doesn't render sarcasm tags, so I'm not sure if your post is meant to be serious or humerous. However, I've never seen, or even heard about someone copying the Microsoft Hologram.

Re:The new $20 bill ...

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

I've seen fake M$ holograms, in the form of a roll of stickers. I don't know where they came from, but I know the used computers shop I've seen it at is closed today and its owner will be housed by the government for some time to come.

Re:The new $20 bill ...

[Accipiter]

This was actually considered, attempted, and dismissed. The problem with the hologram was that it didn't survive all of the torture tests required, since paper money gets the shit kicked out of it in circulation.

If memory serves, I think the hologram they designed had passed all but one of the torture tests. These included baking them in extremely hot ovens, rolling them, washing them, etc.

The test on which it failed was the crumple test. They set the bill on top of a metal tube, and a shaft came down and pressed the bill into the tube, crushing it incredibly. When it came out and was flattened, the hologram was severely wrinkled and crushed, and the holographic image was (obviously) no longer able to be seen.

Re:The new $20 bill ...

[Silverhammer]

Blockquoth the poster:

I've always been in favor of having a hologram on our currency.

Look at the "20" in the bottom-right corner on the current $20 bill.

Look closely...

Re:The new $20 bill ...

[Accipiter]

That's not holographic. It's reflective ink.

Re:The new $20 bill ...

[Wyatt Earp]

US won't put a hologram on because they've not found one that will survive the fold cycles required for US money.

4,000 double folds is the requirement for US bills to survive.

Re:The new $20 bill ...

[EisPick]

The Treasury looked into including holograms, but could not find a hologram that could survive crumpling, laundering, etc. A mangled bill is still legal tender, so they put a lot of research into the durability of bills and their security features.

Re:The new $20 bill ...

[Malc]

The British do this. As other posters have pointed out... perhaps Britons don't fold their money as much. Then again, it is a higher denomination note - worth about USD$32.

Re:The new $20 bill ...

[toasted_calamari]

I belive there have been attempts to do this.

However, they have met with failure as the holograms degrade easily. It is extremely important that a security feature on the bill be durable, so that the bill can still be circulated if crumpled, dropped in the mud, put through a washing machine, etc.

When the $20 was last redesigned they attempted to put a hologram on it, but none of thier hologram designs passed durability tests.

As a compromise, they made the number 20 on the front bottm right corner change from black to blue depending on the angle. This is intended to make the bills harder to photocopy

Re:The new $20 bill ...

[Rolo Tomasi]

So how come Euros have holograms on them?

OTOH, Americans seem to treat their money differently. I've yet to come across a Euro that has been written on, whereas I've seen lots of US$ with stuff scribbled on them.

Re:The new $20 bill ...

[NanoGator]

"That's right, Microsoft have done that for years and they've never been copied. Ever. "

Yep, I verified that. The cd label on Microsoft discs has never been copied.

Re:The new $20 bill ...

[alanak]

The US should move to Austrialian Type currency.

It has translucent windows.

It's made of plastic so it's virtually indestructable.

The only thing is it costs more to make, but it lasts longer in circulation. Currently, about 95% of new US bills replace old ones.

Re:The new $20 bill ...

[CausticWindow]

So.. 5 square inches, folded 4000 times equals 0,0013 square inches, and the bill would reach halwfay to the moon.

Re:The new $20 bill ...

[Wyatt Earp]

No.

Take bill fold it, then fold it again, so that is now a quarter of it's normal size.

Unfold it.

Take bill fold it, then fold it again, so that is now a quarter of it's normal size.

Unfold it.

Repeat 3,998 times.

Re:The new $20 bill ...

[CProgrammer98]

Hmm Holograms work just fine on British currency. We've had them for years now.

Re:The new $20 bill ...

[Saige]

I think this is a great idea.

If they want to make truly hard-to-counterfeit bills, add transparent windows to the bills, with different locations and patterns for each denomination. Very tricky to counterfeit, and will easily stop all the people who do just a little bit with their laser copiers and such.

Of course, that would just lead to people counterfeiting the old ones instead.

Re:The new $20 bill ...

[deragon]

True, but the american dollar has now for the first time a serious competitor. A lot of money is being transfered from American to Euro because of the worldwide anti-american sentiment. I just heard this morning on the radio that many saudis invested in America are pulling their money out, buying Euros and investing in Europe, because they despise the security measures applying to them. And for sure, many islamic people now have an alternative and switching to Euro.

I still believe that the US will remain the all mighty, but its not going to be as poweroff as it was in the past. I think that you can now travel pretty much around the world with Euros and they will be accepted.

Re:The new $20 bill ...

[WegianWarrior]

A lot of nations are doing this these days... here in Norway we have a hologram as one of the security feature of the 200 kroner note (roughtly worth 29½USD as of today), but then all our notes except the fifty has it. And I recoon the fifty will have it soon as well.

It stands up very well against everyday wear and tear - even survived a trip in the washingmachine wihtout any trouble (so did the rest of the bill).

Re:The new $20 bill ...

[VCAGuy]

The cd label on Microsoft discs has never been copied.

Right, that's becuase it's not a label. It's embedded into the aluminum top of the CD's data surface (basically buried under a few mils of polycarbonate). The new ones even have copper!

Re:The new $20 bill ...

[Xenex]

Of course, that would just lead to people counterfeiting the old ones instead.

Here in Australia our first polymer note was introduced in 1990, and throughout the following decade all currency was upgraded. 13 years on and paper notes have totally disappeared from circulation.

The old paper notes may still be legal tender, but you'd likely trade them for polymer at a bank because a stores nowadays are incredibly wary of paper notes. There's a good chance you'd be asked for a 'normal' polymer note instead, or even refuse to accept it.

I don't understand the mentality with many of the comments on this story. The old notes will soon disappear from public use, and using them will only draw attention to you. Counterfeiting the older currency quickly becomes pointless.

Re:The new $20 bill ...

[DrXym]

Coming from the Euro zone where every note has a hologram, I can assure you that the paper falls apart way before the hologram. So such concerns are not relevant. With that said, the 5 notes do become very tattered after being circulated for a while.

Re:The new $20 bill ...

[Saige]

Good point - I wasn't thinking that far ahead in the future. For the first couple years after polymer bills in the US, there would be enough older bills that people would still treat them as normal, leaving the counterfeiters to work on those. Eventually though, as you point out, the old ones will leave circulation enough that when older bills are used, there can be enough scrutiny focused on them to make counterfeiting them increasingly riskier.

I'm all in favor of going down that route.

Question - are the polymer notes longer lived than paper notes? It would seem it to me, suggesting a benefit in that direction also.

Re:The new $20 bill ...

[Xenex]

To quote the site that alanak linked to a few posts up:

"Polymer notes are also more durable than paper notes (lasting around four times as long), are cleaner and more hygienic, and can be recycled at the end of their useful life into a range of plastic products."

I can vouch for their strength first-hand. It's rare to see a damaged note, and it's not really possible to accidentally rip them. Oh, and they're waterproof, so leaving notes in pockets bound for a washing machine isn't too much of a problem...

Re:The new $20 bill ...

[shepd]

>I'm pretty sure the "h" in hologram is not silent.

That depends on your english dialect.

Many UK dialects drop preceeding letter Hs in words. Often, these are viewed as spoken by "lesser" people there, but they are still valid dialects.

I know this as my parents are from such a region (Lake District).

If the preceeding letter H is dropped then one would use "an" if either you weren't thinking too much, or you intend the reader to read your writing aloud.

If you search google, you'll see much discussion of this topic (h-dropping).

Heck, they made a whole MOVIE about this. :)

Re:The new $20 bill ...

[Zaiff Urgulbunger]

Plus you can spend them in the UK too apparently... I do live there (I mean here) but I haven't tried spending euro here.

<tangent> Oh yeah, just remembered, they're called *Euro* not *Euros*. Plural and singular are the same!! </tangent>

Better pics

[Kaeru the Frog]

You can find some better pics here.

Re:Better pics

[GMontag]

Don't forget to leave the word "SAMPLE" intact when printing. This is a key component in detecting fakes :-)

Re: Better pics

[YetAnotherName]

I think I'll just run a few dozen copies of these better pics off on the old color inkjet printer and ... hey, what's this "SPECIMEN" in red ink?

Must be part of the new security features!

Re:Better pics

[xpurple]

Now I have to re-fit my press.

After a bit of thought the old bills will continue to be in circulation for quite some time. Might as well leave it the way it is. They will still be accepted most everywhere.

Re:Better pics

[Elwood P Dowd]

Jiminy Jesus fuck. One of the "New Design Features" is "Symbols of Freedom". I don't understand. After everything else in this country has become embarassing, now I'm going to have to be embarassed by the twenty dollar bill. This is annoying.

Re:Better pics

[Kaeru the Frog]

Yeah, freedom is so embarasing. I'm embarased that 227 years ago men gave up their lives in a fight for freedom. And the government putting a symbol of that freedom on the nation's currency, well, that's over the line.

Re:Better pics

[Elwood P Dowd]

Jingoism is embarassing, not freedom.

Re:Better pics

[Paul Komarek]

US money was already thouroughly impregnated with symbols, including Masonic symbols among many others. You'd think the whole country was in on the "secret handshake" and strange ceremonies. If we were all issued those cute Shriners hats, the embarassment of the strange symbols might be worth it.

-Paul Komarek

Yesh!

[jdehnert]

If they change them any faster, You'll be able to make your own and pass them off as the latest, newest , most non counterfitiest $20.

Re:Yesh!

[tomhudson]

The Treasury plans to redesign bills every seven-to-10 years to keep up with technological advances in counterfeiting.</quote>

... every 7- 10 years, so the plan is to stay 3 generations behind the counterfeiters ... good plan ... not!

Re:Yesh!

[tomhudson]

Actually, here in Canada we're phasing out $1000.00 bills to help deter money-laudering CBC News Item here

We've been doing the same thing with $1 and $2 bills for more than a decade. Any ones turned in are sent to the Bank of Canada for shredding.

Well, I guess the next step will be $20 coins. Can't print those on a bubble-jet.

Re:Yesh!

[SN74S181]

One of the side benefits for Law Enforcement is that if the currency changes gradually erode consumer confidence in the currency, more people will stop using Cash. Cash is something that encumbers Law Enforcement. They would prefer that everbody use more tracable forms of monetary exchance.

Re:Yesh!

[mindstrm]

The $1 and $2 were phased out due to cost, not money laundering. Coins last a lot longer, plain and simple.

The $1000 is another issue; the logic being that joe average will go a lifetime without EVER using using a $1000 bill.

And the next logical coin to come up would be the fiver. ANd hopefull they'll ditch the pennies, as The Netherlands did. (The cent still exists in electronic transactions, but for cash transcions, you round to the nearest 5c)

More efficient

[L. VeGas]

I can finally use all the colors in my ink-jet cartridge.

Re:More efficient

[EMH_Mark3]

*knock knock*
- Who's there?
- Secret Services
- Secret Services who?

Counterfitting measures updated.

[Angry White Guy]

It's about time the U.S. has updated their bills, but I don't think that this is enough. Take a look at British Money to see how difficult you can make it for a counterfitter. Big watermarks, multiple color dyes that penetrate the fibres of the paper. The old U.S. bills you could bleach a $1 bill clean and print a $20 dollar bill on it, and nobody would be the wiser.
Ironic that the most precious thing a nation could have would also be the cheapest.

Re:Counterfitting measures updated.

[legojenn]

I'm surprised that they didn't include that little scratch & win thing like they have on Canadian 20s and above. Nothing makes a currency seem valuable than making it look like a lottery ticket.

Re:Counterfitting measures updated.

[th77]

Don't forget that in Britain (and many other countries) bills of different values have differnt physical sizes.

Re:Counterfitting measures updated.

[stratjakt]

Actually, there are the colored bands that go through the paper with the denomination printed on them. So while you can bleach a one, you cant remove the plastic strip inside that has "1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1" on it.

It's virtually impossible to replicate every single feature in modern currency. What the big counterfeiters hope for is to fool most of the people most of the time, and get an army of kids/lackies to pass the bad notes for them.

Counterfeiting is more about finding ways to pass the bills than create them - it always has been.

You have to find clerks and gas station attendents. But since most stores have you on camera, it's easier to find the guy who passed the bad bill. You'd be a complete idiot to go to Best Buy and pick up a fancy Alienware PC and 21" LCD monitor with counterfeit 20's.

Better would be strangers on the street ("hey buddy can you break a 20?"). Street level drug dealers and prostitutes no doubt get a lot of funny money.

But it's a slow, labor-intensive process.. You have to pass one note at a time, and in the smaller denominations, as to not arouse suspicion.

It's much like other organized crimes like drug dealing or bookmaking - it's not generating the money thats the problem, it's getting rid of it (laundering).

They'll probably never make an "impossible-to-duplicate" bill, but they can make the enterprise of counterfeiting so fraught with headaches and dangers that few would even bother.

Re:Counterfitting measures updated.

[Draoi]

Ironic that the most precious thing a nation could have would also be the cheapest.

The most precious thing a nation could have is not its money! Geez ....

Re:Counterfitting measures updated.

[CowboyBob500]

That's to allow blind people to know what currency they've got. US currency is a bitch for blind people.

Bob

Re:Counterfitting measures updated.

[yanestra]

Ironic that the most precious thing a nation could have would also be the cheapest.
The most precious thing a nation could have is not its money! Geez ....

Its weapons? Its lawyers?

Re:Counterfitting measures updated.

[Carbonite]

US currency is a bitch for blind people.

That why a new law that goes into effect on June 1, 2003 mandates that all legally blind persons turn in their paper US currency in exchange for coins.

Re:Counterfitting measures updated.

[Malc]

" Actually, there are the colored bands that go through the paper with the denomination printed on them."

I believe British money has had a metal strip in it for many years. The Bank of England web site lists some of the security features: this is the £20 note.

Re:Counterfitting measures updated.

[TMB]

Nah, the coolest bills are the Australian ones. The damn things are waterproof and see-through... they look more like windsurfing sails than money! ;-)

[TMB]

Re:Counterfitting measures updated.

[Angry White Guy]

Where is the watermark in relation to a $1 bill? Where is the metallic strip in a $20 in relationship to a $1?
The techniques may be fancy, but not fancy enough. The fact that all the bills are the same size, the same color, and have the same security features have given rise to one type of counterfitting. The fact that many security features require close analysis give way to most other forms of counterfitting. Like I said, the British take their currency very seriously. It is not only asthetically pleasing, but also has functional security checks that a moron can do in the space of two seconds to check to see if it's genuine. And he needs only a light source, not a magnifying glass to check a metal strip to see what it says.

American money is horribly easy to forge. Hard to forge well, but a halfway decent copy on some good paper, properly treated can be passed in a dimly lit bar very easily. Ask any bar owner and see what they have to deal with. I've seen the ends cut off of $20 bills and taped to $1 bills passed quickly. I've seen guys print a handful on their home pc's and pass them through public coin machines.

If you've ever seen foreign money, you would see how grossly inadequate the U.S. has been in preventing the casual counterfitter.

Re:Counterfitting measures updated.

[(trb001)]

I've always wondered how to go about distributing counterfeit money. While I think it would take freakin forever, what about change machines? I doubt there are cameras watching you and recording which bills you put in, and I can't imagine they can detect all the tangible differences as well as a person. Granted, they can get into much finer detail as far as coloring, spacing, etc, but that just means you have to print things out on a really nice printer.

You walk into an arcade with $100 in 10s every day for a week, you have $700 dollars in quarters (at the arcades that still use quarters instead of tokens). Same with laundromats.

Just curious.

--trb

Re:Counterfitting measures updated.

[Jonny Ringo]

The Liberty dollar has better counterfit protection then federal reserve notes. dna coding, micro printing plus 3 other secret messures. This is from verify first technologies. http://www.verifyfirst.com Its also backed by silver and gold.

Re:Counterfitting measures updated.

[Angry White Guy]

That's been in the news for years, and in the article. Everything else you need to know about counterfitting you can learn from Lethal Weapon 4. Poker chips in the dryers, printing process, etc.
All my expertise comes from pop culture and the library. Did you know that the instructions on how to make nitrocellulose (smokeless powder) are in most encyclopaedias, and that you can get everything you need from the hardware store and the gap?

Re:Counterfitting measures updated.

[Angry White Guy]

You'd be a complete idiot to go to Best Buy and pick up a fancy Alienware PC and 21" LCD monitor with counterfeit 20's.

A counterfit credit card, however...
And for the most part, large organizations with thousands of distributed contacts in the underworld (ie. Mafia, Hells Angels) will buy counterfit money for pennies on the dollar. They have their own methods of laundering money. After all, what mom n' pop store is going to refuse to take money from a bunch of bikers?

Re:Counterfitting measures updated.

[Reziac]

"...you cant remove the plastic strip inside that has "1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1" on it."

Nonsense. I just take hold of the end of the strip like so, give it a good jerk, and out it comes. Instant counterfeit!!

Seriously -- what's to stop people (assuming they have the equipment to insert the strips) from yanking the strips out of real $100 bills (then getting those replaced by the bank as "damaged currency", so they don't lose that money) then making counterfeit using real ID strips?

Re:Counterfitting measures updated.

[aaarrrgggh]

It's actually not as hard as you would think. It still has to be done bill-by-bill, but if you go overseas with a wad of fake $20's it might not be as hard as you would think.... especially in countries where the local currency is pegged to the dollar, so shops frequently accept it.

As others have pointed out, it becomes a numbers game... if you have a roll of 20 bills, how much time can you spend checking the accuracy of all of them? How many bills does it require before someone will not check (all) of them? ...not that I would recommend doing this at home or anything...

Re:Counterfitting measures updated.

[ShadowDrake]

Please waddle over to Google groups and search for 'norfed' in rec.collecting.paper-money for a variety of interesting discussion on this topic.

Synopsis:

It's a scam. Sell $5 worth of silver for $7.50 to people who then try to pass it for $10.

If it were legitimate attempt at new currency, why does it play off the value of the US dollar, rather than floating against it? The true value of a Norfed dollar is about 50 cents on the dollar for silver content, and a floating currency would fall to acknowledge it.

Re:Counterfitting measures updated.

[Jonny Ringo]

But why should I pay twice the price for silver?

Put simply, you aren't. The Liberty Dollar is a currency, not an investment. If you want to buy silver at the spot price, then buy silver bullion. Of course, you'll have to buy quite a large quantity to get it that low.

We are trying to bring about a positive political and economic reform, and that costs money--not to mention the costs of minting, storage, insurance, printing and distribution, bookkeeping, supporting the Redemption Centers, advertising, and all the other usual expenses of a free-market enterprise which have to be paid for.

Remember, when you accept a $100 Federal Reserve Note, you are trading $100 worth of goods or services for a 3-cent piece of paper, backed by nothing but debt and delusion. Partial-backing with value is infinitely better than zero-backing with debt.

Click here for a more in-depth explanation as to why you are definitely getting your money's worth with The Liberty Dollar.

Re:Counterfitting measures updated.

[Jonny Ringo]

"If it were legitimate attempt at new currency, why does it play off the value of the US dollar, rather than floating against it?"

Because its the easiest way to get the currency out there when you have it at a 1 to 1 ratio. Eventually it will float against the dollar.

Re:Counterfitting measures updated.

[ShadowDrake]

>The Liberty Dollar is a currency, not an investment.

It's a poor example of either.

For a currency to be worthwhile, it should be widely accepted. Norfeds aren't. It's also stupid to throw away a significant chunk of value for the benefit of it being a "currency" that's unpassable.

> If you want to buy silver at the spot price, then buy silver bullion

Still, even purchasing quantities of one at a local coin shop, you can do better than $10 an ounce, and often better than $7.50.

>We are trying to bring about a positive political and economic reform,

Well then why not just agree to use low-markup silver rounds and send the savings to lobbying?

> Partial-backing with value is infinitely better than zero-backing with debt.

Value is no good if you can't spend it. Moreover, if my FRNs go worthless, I'd say you'd suffer from the resultant economic panic too.

If you show up with $100 in silver liberties to pay me, why shouldn't I say "exchange them for FRNs, go to a coin shop, buy $100 in silver, and give me that" if I *wanted* silver in payment. As I said, why trade away value (in this case, probably about 5 ounces of silver) to have it be considered a currency?

Re:Counterfitting measures updated.

[Jonny Ringo]

>Well then why not just agree to use low-markup silver rounds and send the savings to lobbying?

You will have to enlighten me on what low-markup sliver rounds are.

>Value is no good if you can't spend it. Moreover, if my FRNs go worthless, I'd say you'd suffer from the resultant economic panic too.

They are more stable then the FRN's, because they are actually backed. What if these were floating around in Arentina after there clapse? I'd bet you'd get a ton more value out of them then there deflated currency. Anyways this is activism. We are trying to get people to except it. From my experience people have been very receptive to its idea.

>If you show up with $100 in silver liberties to pay me, why shouldn't I say "exchange them for FRNs, go to a coin shop, buy $100 in silver, and give me that" if I *wanted* silver in payment. As I said, why trade away value (in this case, probably about 5 ounces of silver) to have it be considered a currency?

Because who wants to walk around with a bunch of heavy silver in there pocket? Its convienent to have a warehouse reciet.

The facist control is whats coming from the white house right now. Our monetary system needs healthy competition.

Re:Counterfitting measures updated.

[Pyrosz]

Because it is a lottery ticket, you never know how much its going to be worth from hour to hour.

As a Canadian who buys a lot from other countries, you just never know what its going to cost you in the end.

Re:Counterfitting measures updated.

[ShadowDrake]

>You will have to enlighten me on what low-markup sliver rounds are.

One of a thousand different types of one-ounce, round, lumps of fine silver, sold as a means of holding silver at a relatively small markup. Often available for $6 or $7. Usually with pretty designs (emulations of old coins, and holiday-oriented themes are popular). Some foreign bullion issues (the Mexican Libertad for example) also fall in this category. Check your local coin dealer.

>Because who wants to walk around with a bunch of >heavy silver in there pocket? Its convienent to >have a warehouse reciet.

The issue with the "warehouse reciept" is its high overhead and expiration date. You can't even get an ounce of silver out of a $10 reciept, due to shipping costs, and apparently if you wait 20 years to claim, you lose everything.

Moreover, can you trust them to be there when the economy collapses?

>The facist control is whats coming from the white >house right now. Our monetary system needs >healthy competition.

Fine. Do things better. If the system offered reasonable value, it would become widely accepted. The constant hemming and hawing to justify why someone should supply you with $10 in goods for $5 in silver is what dooms it.

Re:Counterfitting measures updated.

[Smidge204]

Inserting the yanked strips into the new bills might be a tripping point. Did you know that each denomination has the strip in a different location?

Plus, if someone actually bothered to hold it up to a light and look for the stip, they're going to look for the watermark, too.
=Smidge=

Re:Counterfitting measures updated.

[2short]

"Partial-backing with value is infinitely better than zero-backing with debt."

No. Both backing methods under consideration involve risk. The value you should ascribe to FRNs depends on your belief about the future chances that the US Government will remain stable and continue to pay its debts, the chances that people will trust the US Government when they print dollars.
The value you should ascribe to your currency depends upon what you believe about the future value of silver. I don't know lots about the silver market, but the future value of silver sounds likely to be fairly stable to me, (even more so than the US government) so that sounds good. But wait! You want me to accept that your currency is worth twice as much as the silver I can get for it? OK, so I have to take my expectations about the furture value of silver, and average them with predictions about another value: The chances that people will continue to trust a new startup that says this is worth money for no good reason (we've already accounted for the silver). Based on that, I'd say the appropriate value of your currency is pretty close to the value of the silver in my pocket. I'll take the greenbacks.
If you want to start a new currency based on silver, I'd recommend detaching it from the dollar, and I'd name the basic denomination the "ounce". See where I'm going here? Once you get things going, you might even be able to get people trusting "warehouse receipts" ala Silver Certificates. But they'll need to trust you to pay for some reason. (Being a national government helps here, but Big banks used to do it too) I understand you'll have a hard time making a profit with this scheme, but frankly, when I'm deciding what currency to use, your making a profit is not exactly a high priority.

Re:Counterfitting measures updated.

[stanmann]

Yes, I just read the page and it is a scam. It repeats a variation on the theme of "income tax is illegal" and paper money that isn't backed isn't real and can't be used to "pay debts". Basically paranoid ranting.

Re:Counterfitting measures updated.

[Jonny Ringo]

Thanks for the info on the coins.

My guess is that we will end up to agree to disagree.

You have to understand that this currency is not an investment in silver. Its a grassroots movement to return to a more stable inflation proof currency like with the green backs that Licoln had congress create. norfed needed to have a good way to get this currency out and get excepted. Its not just going to happen. So they set up a system that slightly rewards people who spread it.

Its obvous that are government will not do this.

I'm sure we can both agree that our 6 trillion defecit is not a good thing, which 50% our income tax goes to pay just the interest alone.

>The constant hemming and hawing to justify why someone should supply you with $10 in goods for $5 in silver is what dooms it.

Isn't that better than offering a piece of paper that cost 3 cents make and is only backed by debt and trust? I believe it is. I believe this system does offer reasonable value, more so than a FRS does to say the least.

Have you ever thought about what would happen if there was a run on U.S. Treasury securities which 40% are owned by foreign interests.

Pretty interesting stuff. Anyways, I can't possibly see how norfed.org is a "bad thing".

Peace.

Re:Counterfitting measures updated.

[Rinikusu]

Actually, the local strip clubs around here have a massive counterfeiting problem... And this was before the "fake check" in "Catch me if you can". :P

Re:Counterfitting measures updated.

[Jonny Ringo]

Thanks for your input. The silver market is a extremely stable market, but don't let me stop you from doing you own research.

There are many ways of keeping the "worth" of the FRN, but because of the way the system is there will always be inflation. And there is also the possiblity of the deflation. see what happened to the Japanese economy, and the Argentina colapse.

>when I'm deciding what currency to use, your making a profit is not exactly a high priority.

Obvously. Banks have been and will always make more money off you then any person you can think of. I'm know body compared to the power of the federal reserve banks and never will be.

Re:Counterfitting measures updated.

[Kombat]

So while you can bleach a one, you cant remove the plastic strip inside that has "1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1" on it.

Actually, if I've read correctly, US currency doesn't have that security strip in anything smaller than a 20. Am I wrong?

Re:Counterfitting measures updated.

[rixkix]

Actually it's only the ones that don't have the security strip.

Re:Counterfitting measures updated.

[ShadowDrake]

>Its a grassroots movement to return to a more >stable inflation proof currency like with the green >backs that Licoln had congress create

It's NOT inflation proof. It's a fiat money, just like the paper dollar! The only difference is instead of stamping a sheet of paper worth 3 cents with a value $10, they're stamping a chunk of metal worth $5 with a value $10. Eventually, it still comes crashing down in your scenario-- perhaps not as far, but significantly. Plus, it's pegged to the fortunes of the silver industry. Look through history-- whenever there was a glut of silver, everyone would demand free coinage of silver (turning their ounce of silver worth 80 cents as bullion into silver coins worth $1.20), and whenever bullion prices rose, the coins would be hoarded and melted, and then you have to find some other form of money (tokens, small denomination paper) to fill the gap.

Importantly, notice the difference between your currency and traditional specie. An ounce of gold used to be pegged at $21 or so, and the $20 coin had almost an ounce of gold in it-- it fufilled its promise. Here, you're trying to peg an ounce of silver at $10, but you're only putting $5 worth of silver in it.

Re:Counterfitting measures updated.

[pod]

You'd think someone would become alarmed when a person suddenly brings in a bunch of 100s all with the strip missing and getting them replaced with real money. There's not much they can do, they have to replace damaged legal tender, but surely they wouldn't just send you on your merry way with a bagful of new money?

Re:Counterfitting measures updated.

[Zaiff Urgulbunger]

Oh please someone invent scratch'n'sniff money - The Ultimate In Forgery Protection TM.

please!

Re:Counterfitting measures updated.

[Jonny Ringo]

I agree that its not perfect. It is not fiat money. The govenment doesn't issue it. its partially backed by a comodity.

Re:Counterfitting measures updated.

[tupps]

Here is a site that has images of the Australian Currency,

www.vpcoins.com/forgery.html

Although it is talking about how these have been forged, they are very difficult to forge.

Re:Counterfitting measures updated.

[thogard]

The silver market is no longer a currency standard at all. A few years ago (in the middle of the dot com rise), Warren Buffet became the 1st person to actually corner the silver market and he turned it from a mostly historical currency standard into a metal commodity. It may have had something to do with it being needed for so many maunfacturing processes (many that are also owned by Buffet) and he got tired of having to play stupid speculation games. Now the prices is stable.

Re:Counterfitting measures updated.

[Oscar_Wilde]

Better yet, stop using paper. Take a look at Australian Banknotes. Bright easy to see colours, different sizes for the blind, UV printing, raised numbering, clear windows, micro printing (you can read parts of our constitution on one note part of "the man from snowy river" on others), etc.

Plus being made out of polymer, they are cleaner than paper/cotton/wool/whatever banknotes.

Re:Counterfitting measures updated.

[ONU CS Geek]

According to the Spouse (who works as a Bank Manager), for a bill to be cashed as a mutilated bill, it must have the security features still in it/visible...or you have to send it to the Fed.

Re:Counterfitting measures updated.

[Reziac]

Dunno about now, but there used to be a procedure, complete with paperwork, where you turned it in to the bank, then they reported/sent it to the Fed for approval and replacement. IIRC, more than 50% of a damaged bill had to be present. No snipping 'em exactly in half to double your money. :)

Re:Counterfitting measures updated.

[Reziac]

One would hope this would set off alarms, yes :)

In fact, here in the Antelope Valley, you can't even give away money damaged by the strip being removed, and if you try to use a $100 that lacks the strip (even if it's a bill that's old enough that it never had one), chances are someone will call the cops. I've personally seen that happen at a local gas station.

This is why when you hand someone cash here, first thing they do is hold it up to the light to be sure the strip is present!

Re:Counterfitting measures updated.

[Reziac]

Yep.. lots of trip-me-ups. Counterfeiting is starting to sound like too much work. ;)

Tho I've not seen anyone look for the watermark, only the strips (EVERYONE hereabouts looks for the strips, at least in larger bills).

Re:Counterfitting measures updated.

[2short]

"Thanks for your input. The silver market is a extremely stable market, but don't let me stop you from doing you own research."

The point is I'm willing to stipulate that the silver market is rock solid. If I wanted the most stable investment I could possibly find, I might consider buying a bunch of silver and burying it in the back yard.

I fully expect inflation will cause FRNs I have today to be worth less in the future in terms of silver, milk, housing, or whatever. This is why I would consider burying silver before considering burying FRNs. But how much less will it be worth, and how soon? Your currency looks to me like it's going to be worth half what I paid for it (100% inflation) the moment it hits my hand.

Banks will make more money off me than you? Lets see, my bank will pay me to keep my money there, or they will reverse the deal, and charge me in exchange for giving me access now to what I'll save in the future. The difference in the interest rate they'll pay and the interest rate they'll charge is about 2% (YMMV). So they make more money off me than you because I do business with them, and not you, but in percentage terms, they want 2% in exchange for giving me considerable flexibility about when I spend vs. save my money. You want 50% for, uh, what exactly?

It's not a currency unless it's widely accepted (consult the definition of "currency"). The basic question relevant to currency is "With which one can I buy a gallon of milk?". Hell, since you're so concerned about inflation, I'll even throw in "Which one do I expect will buy me more milk in five years?" Since I don't think any reasonable person would expect the dollar to undergo 100% inflation in the next five years, FRNs win.
So it looks to me just like selling silver at a really bad price. You justify by saying it's a currency, and quickly redirecting discussion to the supposed problems with FRNs. I call that a scam.

Re:Counterfitting measures updated.

[Jonny Ringo]

Yeah, you know a lot of the time inflation is above 2% or damn neer close.

Do you have a credit card? Banks issue that out. Do you have a car loan a morgage and other type of load? If you have any of the above you are paying a much higher interest then what you are getting to BANKS.

Its grassroots effort to get the currency out there. It is better the FRN's, and may be more widely excepted in the future. A cam? yeah you know those crafty non-profit groups are always out to get you.

Read some books on the federal reserve or something.

Most counterfeits look stupid

[Dark Paladin]

I've worked in the financial world for a bit, and I'm always surprised by how bad most counterfit bills look.

95% of the time, counterfeit bills are accepted by people who don't seem to notice that while the bill corners say $20, George Washington is in the center. Or that they're printed on normal grade paper.

I'm sure the government is making the change to the $20 for "big time" counterfeiters, but it seems like most of the time it can be prevented on the retail level by people just using their heads.

Re:Most counterfeits look stupid

[CausticWindow]

It will make it harder for countries like Iran, who, at least in the eighties, were producing counterfeit dollars.

Re:Most counterfeits look stupid

[Angry White Guy]

I remember watching an old PBS special about 'monetary warfare' which touched on this, as well as a couple of blurbs about the U.S. flooding Viet Nam and Korea with funny money. At one time the CIA were considered the best counterfitters in the world.

Re:Most counterfeits look stupid

[CausticWindow]

I don't think the forging is especially difficult when you have access to the kind of resources the CIA have.

Wasn't very difficult for Iran either, they just bought a press and paper from the same people who make this equipment for the govnerment.

Re:Most counterfeits look stupid

[markov_chain]

I wonder how much counterfeit money is directed toward vending machines. It would seem that a machine would be easier to fool than a person, since presumably one only has to fool the built-in scanner, without need to reproduce the properties of the paper (smell, quality, feel, etc.).

Re:Most counterfeits look stupid

[override11]

You think forgers dont have access to those kind of resources?? They PRINT money! :)

Re:Most counterfeits look stupid

[CausticWindow]

Of course :) And for governments, it's even easier.

Re:Most counterfeits look stupid

[DNS-and-BIND]

The Nazis also did this to the U.S. and England. Isn't counterfeiting another country's currency against U.N. resolutions?

Aw yeah, I forgot, middle eastern countries don't have to follow U.N. resolutions.

Re:Most counterfeits look stupid

[CGP314]

I've worked in the financial world for a bit, and I'm always surprised by how bad most counterfit bills look.

Wouldn't you, by definition, find most of the bad fakes? Wouldn't you not find the really good ones?

Re:Most counterfeits look stupid

[CausticWindow]

Aw yeah, I forgot, middle eastern countries don't have to follow U.N. resolutions.

Much, in fact, like the US.

Re:Most counterfeits look stupid

[sharkey]

I'm always surprised by how bad most counterfit bills look

Doesn't really matter. You can still pass them in Tennessee (or was it Kentucky?). Remember the Quickie-Mart clerk that accepted a $200 bill with Dubya's face on it?

Re:Most counterfeits look stupid

[DNS-and-BIND]

Defying U.N. resolutions for years is apparently OK with a (very) few countries, some of whom hold vetoes on the security council. Putting teeth behind U.N. resolutions was what the fuss was all about. The U.N. has been revealed to be a toothless tiger.

The U.S. violated no U.N. resolutions, yet somehow they get all the bad press. Go figure.

Re:Most counterfeits look stupid

[ipjohnson]

Love the sig ...

Frontier Psychiatrist is an awesome song.

Re:Most counterfeits look stupid

[sebmol]

Yeah, they did. They violated (and are still violating) conventions of war by keeping "enemy combatants" in custody without being treated as either POV's or citizens. They also waged a war against Iraq without UN mandate.

Just because you are not satisfied with the way the police is enforcing the law doesn't mean you get to go after the (suspected) criminals yourself. Likewise, just because the US disagree with the way the UN was enforcing their own resolutions doesn't give her the right to enforce them on her own.

Re:Most counterfeits look stupid

[DNS-and-BIND]

They also waged a war against Iraq without UN mandate.

What U.N. resolution did this violate?

Re:Most counterfeits look stupid

[sebmol]

The Charter of the United Nations, specifically Article 2, Clauses 3 and 4. It is against international law to for one country to attack another country unless it's acting in defense to prior action. Iraq never attacked the United States nor did it recently attack any of its allies. Just the suspicion of possible action in the future is not defense just like me hitting someone else to prevent him from hitting me isn't self-defense either.

Re:Most counterfeits look stupid

[blibbleblobble]

You'd think that someone with the ability to print money, plus the ability to require anybody in the country to give them money on demand...

You'd think they'd manage to stay out of debt?

Re:Most counterfeits look stupid

[blibbleblobble]

The fact that the US violated no UN Security Council resolutions borders on a mere technicality.

But more relevantly...

Re:Most counterfeits look stupid

[stanmann]

Perhaps you missed them shooting at our aircraft legally patrolling the no-fly zones? Not saying that is why we attacked, just that that is "sufficient legal provocation".

Re:Most counterfeits look stupid

[sebmol]

At no time did the current US administration claim that as grounds to invade Iraq. And even if that was considered, shooting down an airplane doesn't call for an invasion of the country and hunting down its government, whether it be a nice one or not.

Re:Most counterfeits look stupid

[stanmann]

World war I started because of an assassination of no-one in particular? Oh and they never succeeded and it wasn't one airplane, it was 2-3 times a week.

Re:Most counterfeits look stupid

[DNS-and-BIND]

That charter is a leftover from the bygone age of the Clausewitzian concept of war between nations. We're in a new age now of asymmetric war between nations and non-state actors. The U.N.'s role in refusing to accept change was a major reason it was consigned to the dustbin of history.

Re:Most counterfeits look stupid

[sebmol]

World War I started before the UN was created. And nobody ever claimed that it was a legitimate war. Germany and its allies attacked other European countries on the height of an arms race uncomparable to anything before.

If Iraq fires at US airplanes, US airplanes should disable those installments that are firing missiles. Or ask for a UN resolution to get those installments disabled. Or ask the UN to find somebody else to patrol that air space. Nobody forced the US to do that and while the UN members no doubt were very thankful for the US doing that, it doesn't mean that it now has general policing rights in that area.

The concept that someone else has power over what a country can and cannot do seems to be no problem as long as that country is not the US. For an example, look at the suit the US filed today with the WTO claiming that the EU ban on genetically engineered food is an infringement of internaional trade.

However, when it comes to international law limiting the actions of the United States, things look completely different. It is international law that no country can attack another country unless it is attacked first. The US couldn't care less about that when it invaded Iraq. The international court was created to prosecute and punish individuals who commit crimes against humanity. The US was all for it as long as its own citizens could never be on the prosecuted side.

Re:Most counterfeits look stupid

[sebmol]

So you are saying that just because the US doesn't believe in the idea of the UN anymore, it doesn't have to abide by its rules any longer? Looks like a great example for many other countries who might now ask themselves "What's the point of following the rules? The most powerful nation doesn't either, so why should I?"

The US became a member of the UN and accepted its rules. What rights does it have to break that contract now and say it doesn't want to be a part of it any longer.

I don't think the US was ever willing to let the UN have control over any of the US' actions. Taking advantage of the UN's current weakness is just a great opportunity to get out of it w/o looking too bad. Or at least, that's what the White House must be thinking.

Re:Most counterfeits look stupid

[DNS-and-BIND]

It's more the idea of, the U.N. has ceased to represent the views of its member states. When a second-rate power like France can block the will of the world's nations (and make no mistake, France, Germany, and Russia were the only nations not supporting the U.S. but of course the media didn't make it look like that), then perhaps it's time for a re-evaluation of just exactly why the U.N. exists, and what benefits there are to belonging.

What rights does it have to break that contract now and say it doesn't want to be a part of it any longer.

Why, the rights of a soverign nation-state, of course. You're familiar with those, right? Otherwise you wouldn't be shooting your mouth off making yourself look like a fool in a public discussion? The U.N. isn't some super-state that binds the world together, it's really more like a country club. Would you want to be a member of a club who puts Libya and Cuba on its human rights commission?

Re:Most counterfeits look stupid

[sebmol]

There's no doubt that the veto powers in the UN security council are undemocratic and unrepresentative. That France (and Russia) used this to its advantage is nothing I or anybody could be proud of. If the US had convinced the security council that a military mission in Iraq was necessary (and the US got very far in doing so), then the UN should have given the mandate. That's something the US was trying to do until it became evident that France and Russia would veto any resolution that resembled military intervention.

But at that point, instead of just ignoring the rules of the UN and international law, the US should have tried to change the structure of how decisions are made. Why it didn't? Because such efforts could backfire at the US when it disagrees with something the UN wants to do. If France and Russia had to give up their veto powers, so would the US. That's not something the current administration was willing to do.

As to the rights of souvereign nation-states, it is obvious that no country is nor should be in a position where it can do whatever it wants with no regard to the rest of the world. The US is as much part of the global network of trade and politics as any other country. To deny that and say that the US has no responsibilities to the rest of the world is denying reality.

If Cuba or Libya are on the Human Rights Commission and the US has a problem with it, then it needs to complaing about it and use the tools it legally has to change that. Leaving just because you don't like it there anymore proves neither strength nor wisdom.

Re:Most counterfeits look stupid

[Guppy06]

"but it seems like most of the time it can be prevented on the retail level by people just using their heads."

The big time counterfeiters are the ones that are harder to catch. Good-looking counterfeits get used successfully more than bad-looking ones, which means the bad-looking ones are generally found close to home.

Re:Most counterfeits look stupid

[thogard]

The US gave the printing presses to Iran. I wonder if they remembered to take out the plates first.

Re:Most counterfeits look stupid

[mpe]

If Iraq fires at US airplanes, US airplanes should disable those installments that are firing missiles. Or ask for a UN resolution to get those installments disabled.

At which point the UN is likely to laugh at the US as remind them that they shouldn't be flying the planes in Iraqi airspace in the first place.

Or ask the UN to find somebody else to patrol that air space.

Assuming the UN believes that the airspace needs patroling in the first place. Which was never discussed by the UN and several times got in the way of the weapons inspectors, who were acting with UN authority, being able to do their jobs.

Re:Most counterfeits look stupid

[stanmann]

Enforcing UN Resolutions?? Seems legal to me.... Can't have it both ways son.

Re:Most counterfeits look stupid

[Kombat]

Sure, whatever.

"Hi, Acme Currency Printing Presses? Yes, I'd like to order one of your USD-2004/100 Series presses - yes, that's right, the one that prints US hundred dollar bills. How much is that one? $850,000 US? Sounds good. Listen, can you deliver it first, and then I'll pay you about a week later? And, can I pay you in hundreds? Great, thanks, I'll give you a call when it arrives."

You really think anyone selling counterfeit equipment to someone is going to wait for payment? Or that they'll accept cash? Especially considering that this equipment costs on the order of hundreds of thousands - or even millions - of dollars? They probably won't accept payment in hundred dollar bills for that (since the US hasn't had a thousand dollar bill for decades, for precisely this reason). This means you'd have to have the cash in a bank somewhere, and good luck passing a million dollars in fake hundreds through a bank.

But...

[archetypeone]

they haven't changed the size?! Why is it that no blind people have sued over this?

Re:But...

[schovanec]

In Canada, all of our bills are the same size. But the most recent designs include the denomination inprinted in Braille.

Re:But...

[L. VeGas]

When will people learn that SIZE DOESN'T MATTER.
(My shrink makes me say this 50 times every morning. Or until I stop crying, whichever comes first.)

Re:But...

[VirtualAdept]

Really? That's weird, my mailbox tells me that SIZE DOES MATTER 100 times every morning. Or until I start crying because my mailbox hit quota again.

Re:But...

[Malc]

Braille's great for the blind. But something simpler would be a more useful security measure that the seeing could also use. How many seeing people can actually read braille?

Re:But...

[DNS-and-BIND]

Quick, some piddly detail is wrong! Call a lawyer! What this country needs is more lawsuits!

Re:But...

[ThinkingGuy]

I don't know if it's true or not, but I'm sure I heard a story a few years ago that the government was considering adding features to paper currency to help blind people, but that some "advocacy group for the blind" actually opposed it because it was "demeaning" or "promoted the stereotype of blind people as helpless" or something.
Like I said, I don't know if it's true or not, but in the modern US, it wouldn't be surprising.

Re:But...

[blibbleblobble]

they haven't changed the size?! Why is it that no blind people have sued over this?

'Cos they can't read the treasury website.

What about size?

[sebi]

Isn't it about time that different dollar bills start coming in different sizes? Isn't it pretty standard for counterfeiters to bleach a small denomination bill and print the image of larger ones? Different sizes would at least make this practise a bit more difficult. That doesn't stop forgery in euro-land, but it does make it just a bit more difficult. I thought that holographs would be pretty effective, but in day to day commerce nobody looks to closely. The best way to make sure that your bills are genuine is using ones that are really unpopular. Last weekend was the first time that I saw a 200 Euro bill. And that was one and a half years after the introduction of the currency.

Re:What about size?

[laughing_badger]

The main reason for making bills a different size is to aid blind people in differentiating them. I guess that it does help prevent the bleach-and-reprint mode of forgery too.

Re:What about size?

[gmhowell]

The other benefit of different sized bills is for the blind. You can tell denominations by feel.

Re:What about size?

[altek]

I personally think it would be a real pain to have bills of different sizes in my wallet. Especially if they made some of them too big for standard wallets (which I doubt they would), which means that they would have to start making them smaller. Our bills are already smaller than a lot of countries'. I could see losing them or accidentally having smaller bills between larger ones and handing them over to a cashier who isn't scrupulous and pockets the extra ones..

Besides, then my G-stacks wouldn't look as neat!

Re:What about size?

[op00to]

Actually, US bills are HUGE (lengthwise) compared to both the British and Euro currencies. American wallets are useless over there, and the lack of a change pocket on a wallet really sucks.

Re:What about size?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Isn't it pretty standard for counterfeiters to bleach a small denomination bill and print the image of larger ones?"

They could still bleach a larger denomination bill, cut it down to size, and print it with the smaller denomination. The problem still exists.

Re:What about size?

[DougMackensie]

They could still bleach a larger denomination bill, cut it down to size, and print it with the smaller denomination. The problem still exists.

Hey you're right. Althought that could render the counterfiting business unprofitable by changing 20's into 1's ;).

Re:What about size?

[sebi]

They could still bleach a larger denomination bill, cut it down to size, and print it with the smaller denomination. The problem still exists.

Funny, funny stuff. Sounds like something Mafia families like the one in 'Ghost Dog' would be likely to do.

Re:What about size?

[Kadagan AU]

cheange really sucks. I try to avoid it. Last thing I need is for my wallet to be even fatter.

Re:What about size?

[DougMackensie]

The best way to make sure that your bills are genuine is using ones that are really unpopular. Last weekend was the first time that I saw a 200 Euro bill. And that was one and a half years after the introduction of the currency.
Just the opposite. The rarest bills are also the least counterfitted. 20's (not 100's or higher) are by far the most counterfitted bill in the US. If you see 100 bill as a teller, then you are definately going to give it a close look, while 20's are so common the tellers barely even give them a glance.

Re:What about size?

[sheldon]

It'd be like the dot com companies...

1. Buy $100 bills
2. Reprint as $20s
3. ...
4. Profit!

Re:What about size?

[sebmol]

Amen. Try even buying one of those here. It's impossible. I have been looking for wallets with change pockets for a long time and to this day can't find any.

From what I've seen, many people here just drop change in a jar at the end of the day and then, when it's full, go to machines that spit out bills for the coins. Of course, they take a percentage of your money but that doesn't seem to bother too many. And, of course, these machines can be found in almost every grocery store.

Re:What about size?

[Paul Komarek]

If you don't mind cloth wallets, look at outdoor and travel stores. I've got a simple Eagle Creek wallet that handles US and UK currency well.

-Paul Komarek

Re:What about size?

[aaarrrgggh]

Thailand was pretty cool with that; all the bills had significantly different textures, with the middle common bill being plastic.

Re:What about size?

[identity0]

Okay, I've wanted to ask someone who lives in the Euro zone - how do you pronounce amounts less than 1 Euro? Is 0.01 Euros a CentiEuro? point-oh-one Euro? A one-hundredth of a Euro? Or is there a special term, like 'cent' or 'schilling'?

Re:What about size?

[dunkelfalke]

cent or eurocent.
it is even official as far as i know.

Re:What about size?

[DarthAle]

Cent, actually. Or if you want to be sure that there is no mixup with other cents you can call the Euro Cents.

From � to � (not!)

[cwernli]

As long as the name doesn't change it's A-OK: immagine the dollar being called the "Amerio"...

Re:From � to � (not!)

[Ozan]

Actualy "Euro" was one of the few words that have a meaning in every single language spoken in the 12 participating countries. And except for greek it's even spelled the same way everywhere. Nothing much else to come up with when looking for a name.

Most probably it is easier for NAFTA with its 3 languages...

Interactive Flash Movie That shows new features

[phnx90]

http://www.moneyfactory.com/newmoney/flash/interac tivebill/index.cfm

Re:Interactive Flash Movie That shows new features

[rastos1]

Looking at the server name, following comes to my mind: How does goverment pay the company that prints the notes?

Yes, I know it's stolen question,but I'd like to know anyway

Re:Yay!

[GMontag]

Are they brazilian-looking?

I hope not! Pictures of dead Presidents from the neck up are fine. Backsides have no place on US money, well, unless it is like a J-Lo backside (I know she is not Brazilian, but she should be).

I have some swiss francs.

[Unknown Poltroon]

Not only are they all different colors, with holograms and different sizes, but they also have a raised pattern on each bill, a tiragle, square or circle. I understand why tehy cant change the size of our bills easily, but a raised pattern on the bill would be easy.

Re:I have some swiss francs.

[91degrees]

Good in two ways - Firsty for the blind, secondly, it's that little bit of extra work for a counterfeiter.

Re:I have some swiss francs.

[Jordy]

A raised pattern? On a linen bill? That gets folded up a thousand times over and often sent through the washer?

I guess they could insert a security strip that was a little thicker instead of actually creating a raised pattern in the linen itself.

On the other hand, who uses paper money anyway? I don't think I've paid for anything in actual cash in quite a while with the exception of the stamp machine and parking meters.

Re:I have some swiss francs.

[mosch]

Carrying only credit cards leaves one open for far too many incidents (sorry, our credit card processing system just broke, or if there's a power outage or what not) Some people don't like the risk associated with carrying cash, but personally I find it comforting to know that my wallet has enough money in it to take care of most any situation which could arise, and not be payable via credit.

Re:I have some swiss francs.

[blibbleblobble]

A raised pattern? On a linen bill?

When you're making the paper, you can emboss any pattern you like. That's what watermarking is all about (variable-thickness paper in the shape of the queen's head) -- it shouldn't be much of a problem to include raised patterns the same way.

Re:I have some swiss francs.

[arkane1234]

I think the person was referring to the fact that the raised portions would be badly distorted, if not flattened, through normal wear and tear.

It looks faded in the middle

[Marx_Mrvelous]

Any idea why they chose a color that makes it look like someone left the bill in their laundry with some bleach? I was hoping for something that looked *good* not faded. Oh well.

Re:It looks faded in the middle

[stratjakt]

Muted and light colors with less contrast are much harder to scan/photocopy.

Re:It looks faded in the middle

[Jeremy Erwin]

The middle of the bill recieves the most wear and tear (because of folding). As the portrait is considered a security faeature, it makes little sense to place it in region susceptible to damage. Instead, the center portion is left blank, so as to increase ones attention on the undamaged, off center portions.

Actually

[Kelz]

It looks strikingly similar to the canadian dollar or the old british pound.

Re:Actually

[GeckoX]

It looks like a large brass coin? Very interesting... ;)

Re:Actually

[SN74S181]

No, that would be the Anthony dollar, which looks like crap after it's passed through two or three hands. As opposed to the Canadian Loon, which seems to be going quite well.

I like the Canadian Two Dollar coin best, myself. Bimetallic is cool. And can probably be rigged into a thermocouple by some adventurous soul....

Re:Actually

[Capt. DrunkenBum]

Rumour has it that we Canadians will be getting a $5 coin in a couple more years.

I must admit it is nice to drag out a handfull of change and discover you have enough coin for dinner and a movie.

Facelift extends to e-moeny too

[jocks]

IN the UK we are about to roll out a massive scheme whereby we don't use our signature to validate our bank card/credit card transactions, we use a PIN number instead.

I guess the days of innocence are passing, my concern is that the general public is going to be the ones that get hurt and the criminals will carry on regardless.

Re:Facelift extends to e-moeny too

[MeerCat]

IN the UK we are about to roll out a massive scheme whereby we don't use our signature to validate our bank card/credit card transactions, we use a PIN number instead.

In Australia they've been doing this for years - mind you they've also being running decent IT systems in the retail branches too for a long time to make it easier.. whereas the UK retail banking is only now starting to get away from the "all your details at your home branch" mentality.

Re:Facelift extends to e-moeny too

[Malc]

About time. We've been doing this in Canada for years. It was in place and quite common when I emmigrated here from Britain in the early 90's.

It's always made me laugh how uptight and anal some people can be about signatures in the UK. They're basically worthless. I remember being scolded once in Sainsbury's for not trying hard enough to make my signature look like the one on the card. Give me a break! Stupid system: forgers will probably do a better job than me. And, producing an authentic signature on the card always seemed problematic in itself.

My biggest concern with the PIN number approach is of course man-in-the-middle attacks with fake readers. Or cracking the security on the wireless machines that have been appearing in restaurants and bars in the last few years.

Re:Facelift extends to e-moeny too

[damien_kane]

In Capitalist America...

Credit-card transactions validate YOU

This will stop counterfeiting how...?

[Jerk City Troll]

Have you ever handed a cashier a note and had them examine it with an expert eye to determine if it was real or not? Obviously if you hand someone a piece of monopoly money, they're going to know right off the bat that it's "not real". But if I hand a clerk at Subway a counterfeited 20$USD, nobody is going to know it until the bill falls into the hands of someone who's paying attention. By then, it's covered with finger prints. Now this will make it more difficult to make similar-looking currency, but I don't see how it solves the problem.

Re:This will stop counterfeiting how...?

[Timesprout]

This is part of a cunning plan in collusion with HP to make forging the new colour bills prohibitively expensive due to the new massive overhead of time limited, half full HP ink cartridges.

Re:This will stop counterfeiting how...?

[slyguy420]

Actually I ended up with a countereit $10 dollar bill once... unknowingly I went to buy lunch at a hole in the wall mexican restaurant.. I hand em the bill and the guy looks and looks.. and he's like "this bill no good"
sure enough I looked closer and it was!!
out of all the places to get a phony bill spotted I would have never of thought the local taco stand would catch it.

One change we won't likely see

[Chagatai]

While the adaptation of colors and revising the layout of the dollar bill is a nice deterrent, there is one thing that would be nice to see: dollar bills that the blind could use.

In Japan for years now, not only are the coins and dollar bills used in different colors (for easy glances to see how much money someone has), but they are of different sizes and shapes that make the coins recognizable by the blind. The 10,000 Yen bill is the longest, while the 1,000 is the shortest. Even the 5 Yen coin has a hole in it to separate it from the other coins (yes, this also goes back thousands of years to the Chinese "cash" coins).

Seeing as how all American bills are of the same size, I imagine that it must be slightly frustrating for a blind person to trust someone they don't know to be completely honest about money and take $5 instead of $50. Unfortunately, I can't see the Treasury Department putting some sort of Braille marker or other deliniating factor into future money production.

Re:One change we won't likely see

[antelopelovefan]

I've talked about this problem with several blind people and most of them have a system (usually involving) folding the money in different ways so they know which bills they're dealing with. Several of these methods are described in the Int'l Organization for the Blind web page.

Re:One change we won't likely see

[meloneg]

Unfortunately, I can't see the Treasury Department putting some sort of Braille marker or other deliniating factor into future money production.
Definately not likely.

Re:One change we won't likely see

[kurosawdust]

I had the same idea when I read about how "for the first time braille would be featured on a US quarter". Of course, it was just decorative (for the Hellen Keller Alabama quarter), meaning that I had yet again underestimated the astounding ability of government officials to come achingly close to a great idea yet still completely miss the point.

Re:One change we won't likely see

[Microlith]

In fact due to all the differences between all the denominations in Japanese money, ATMs are far more versatile as well.

At the ATMs in my bank, I was close to shocked that I was able to just throw in a bunch of bills and (*gasp*) CHANGE and the machine automatically tallied it all up for me.

The only issue I can see that they've had is that recently the 500yen coin underwent a fairly hefty remake and many vending machines and some older subway/train ticket machines won't accept both, either one or the other. I've only encountered one of the older 500yen coins in the month and a half I've been here, so they're probably actively filtering them out of circulation.

Re:One change we won't likely see

[slim]

While the adaptation of colors and revising the layout of the dollar bill is a nice deterrent, there is one thing that would be nice to see: dollar bills that the blind could use.

Yes, it'd make sense, wouldn't it... or at least, the partially sighted.

I have perfect (corrected) vision, and even I have trouble distinguishing US notes at a glance -- all the same size, all the same colour, who's stupid idea was that?

Re:One change we won't likely see

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem with braille, or raised markings, or cut corners, etc, is that they make it really easy to rip the blind off.

Cut the corner off an old one and give it to the blind guy, asking him for change for a "hundred". Or use a toothpick to poke out "100" in braille.

The markings and raised letterings wear off and become confusing as well, and it causes quite a problem for blind folks back in Canada, as I have a couple blind friends back there.

I dont think the solution is in the currency itself, perhaps some piece of handheld tech, like a miniaturized version of the scanners that vending machines use, maybe built into a wallet that says "20" as you stick the bills in.

Re:One change we won't likely see

[grassy_knoll]

And not only are the bills of a different size, but in the lower right hand corner ( IIRC ) of the bill face are a number of raised dots. One dot == 1000 yen, two dots == 5000 yen and three dots == 10000 yen.

Re:One change we won't likely see

[greenguy]

Thanks for linking to this, but frankly, what they write is really weak. They looked at raised symbols, Braille, cutting corners, and different-sized bills, but decided not to use them because "the durability of these modifications is limited."

Hello? Cut corners would grow back? Different-sized bills would revert to the same size?

Re:One change we won't likely see

[fishbowl]

Folding his own money a certain way only solves the problem for spending the money.

A blind person cannot work independently in a job where he accepts money from the public (i.e., cashier), unless he can differentiate the bill.

Now, think how many jobs require taking money from the public.

Re:One change we won't likely see

[cosyne]

I've always thought that different sizes of bills would be inconvenient, but having the length of the bill be proportional to the denomination could be useful. Easier for the blind (although they'd probably need a special ruler unless the differences were inconveniently large). It would also prevent the bleach-and-reprint counterfitting technique.

Re:One change we won't likely see

[DeltaSigma]

Simple Solution: Those strips, on the bills, why not make them increase in distance from the side of the bill as the denomination increased. 1$ - Quarter of an inch from the left side of the bill if you're looking at the face. 2$ - half an inch, 5$ three quarters, so on and so forth.

It's my understanding that the blind have a pretty good ability to detect spaces between prominant physical features (or at least that's the impression braille gives me). So why not just adjust the distance that the strip is from the side of the bill? Should be quick and easy for the blind person, and they would even be able to tell you if the bill is facing forward or backward!

Someone tell me how this wouldn't work.

Re:One change we won't likely see

[sebmol]

Right. According to your way of reasoning, construction company shouldn't be forced to build elevators into commercial buildings either considering how much money it costs and how it primarily benefits a minority of the population (those unable to walk stairs). Or reserve space for handicapped parking lots.

Re:One change we won't likely see

[Idarubicin]

If cutting the corner off a bill makes it a five, then give me a pair of scissors and presto - blind people think I'm giving them a five.

You cut fewer corners on higher denomination bills, so that trimming a bill will decrease its apparent value.

For example, no cuts on a $100 bill, lower right on a $50 bill, lower and upper right for $20, lower left and right for $10, lower left and right, and upper right for $5, and all four corners for $1.

Wider adoption of a one dollar coin would also help in the States--it could reduce significantly the number of bills one must handle.

Re:One change we won't likely see

[vistic]

It wouldn't let you tell if the bill is facing forward or backward. You could flip the bill so the other side is showing and still have the strip on the same side in relation to yourself.

Re:One change we won't likely see

[Idarubicin]

While the adaptation of colors and revising the layout of the dollar bill is a nice deterrent, there is one thing that would be nice to see: dollar bills that the blind could use.

Here's a link to a detailed list of features that can be used to make currency more accessible to the visually impaired. There's a discussion of pros and cons for each. (For example--Braille or other raised markings seem like a good idea, but they can wear off. Also, when stacking large amounts of currency, raised markings can cause trouble.)

The Appendix to the report also has a list of features that were rejected outright for practical reasons. These include (among many) microencapsulated odorants (different denominations smell different) and acoustic effects from the edge of the bill (different denominations sound different when you blow across their edges.)

Re:One change we won't likely see

[blibbleblobble]

I think there are limits to how far the rest of the world should feel obligated to go to make things more convenient for the crippled.

Yes, blind people can't use paper money. That's sucks if you're blind, but most people aren't. And changing the money to make it "blind-friendly" by making the bills different sizes or adding braille would greatly inconvenience everybody else. Money-handling tools and systems aren't set up to deal with bills of different sizes, and bills with embossed seals or braille on them won't stack the way flat bills do, so practically every cash-handling system would have to be redesigned.

The blind just have to suck this one up, I'm afraid.

I'd never normally wish a crippling industrial accident on anyone, but in this case...

Re:One change we won't likely see

[buffer-overflowed]

So I could go spend a one that's in circulation now and a blind person would think it's a $100.

Brilliant.

Re:One change we won't likely see

[Idarubicin]

So I could go spend a one that's in circulation now and a blind person would think it's a $100.

Such a change in the notes could also be accompanied by a small change in their size or aspect ratio, to avoid confusion with old notes.

Really, there's nothing that prevents an unscrupulous individual from lying about the value of current notes, either.

Re:One change we won't likely see

[buffer-overflowed]

Right, but there's no net benefit to changing currency sizes, cutting corners, et cetera for the blind and Braile isn't durable enough.

It's no harder to rip them off, if anything, it's easier, and they'd still have to insist that they only got $1 notes to be sure.

Re:One change we won't likely see

[AndrewRUK]

Why would different sizes of bank note inconvience you in the slightest? Is it inconvienent that different denominations of coin are different sizes? And how on Earth can different sizes of nate be both useful and inconvenient at the same time?

Re:One change we won't likely see

[Idarubicin]

Right, but there's no net benefit to changing currency sizes, cutting corners, et cetera for the blind and Braile isn't durable enough.

It's true; it's difficult to prevent the blind from being ripped off, short of having a trusted companion (or a portable device) verify the bank note denomination.

On the other hand, if different denominations are on notes of different sizes, the blind could certainly verify that a note was on the correct size and texture of paper--not a bad test. Also, sizing, notching, or corner-cutting new bank notes will help the sighted, because it will make 'raising' a note virtually impossible.

Re:One change we won't likely see

[sjames]

Clearly, they're waiting for some sort of technology where the blind can just carry around a 500 pound scanner (with convieniant wrist strap) to read special inks (costing $1000 per bill) and able to guarantee <10% error rate. Until that's possible, it just isn't worth it to try a bunch of 100% effective cheap half measures.

Re:One change we won't likely see

[Idarubicin]

Clearly, they're waiting for some sort of technology where the blind can just carry around a 500 pound scanner (with convieniant wrist strap)...

You mean like this one? (It has a belt loop, rather than a wrist strap. From its size, I'd say it weighs in at under a pound.) The Bank of Canada has designed and circulated new currency specifically considering the visually impaired. The CNIB (Canadian National Institute for the Blind) lends readers to the blind free of charge.

Re:One change we won't likely see

[sjames]

You mean like this one? (It has a belt loop, rather than a wrist strap. From its size, I'd say it weighs in at under a pound.)

That's quite cool. I was mostly commenting on what the U.S. government considers a good idea vs. what sane people think, and that whatever solution may come up will be more complex than a simple modification to the bills themselves. You must admit, the scanner, cool as it is, is much more complex than properly designed bills.

Anti-counterfeit or vending lobby?

[adzoox]

I read some time back that that a move like this costs the taxpayer/letter sender close to 200 MILLION everytime we change the currency (stamp machines in postoffices) and that it costs companies like Coca Cola several BILLION to change over or update their machines. It makes me think of the motive. Is it the vending machine industry or anti counterfeiting / retailers lobby?

Moves like this reak of the Sopranos. The same people that make vending/coin change machines also make lottery ticket distribution and numbering systems and slot machines!!

If the vending industry were smart they'd be lobbying for money readers REQUIRED to accept cash at retail that would authenticate bills and serial numbers OR going to plastic/mark of the beast I suppose would solve the whole thing ;)

Re:Anti-counterfeit or vending lobby?

[LordNimon]

Dumbass, vending machines don't take $20 bills!

Re:Anti-counterfeit or vending lobby?

[adzoox]

Whatever!!! Postal machines take 20's some take 50's - all machines in big cities I know of take 2o's because a 20oz Coke is $3

Re:Anti-counterfeit or vending lobby?

[Wyatt Earp]

That is why they don't change the $1 bill.

Because of the cost to vendors.

At the most a vending machine might take a $5, so it'll be changed. But the vast majority only take coins and ones.

Re:Anti-counterfeit or vending lobby?

[fishbowl]

>Dumbass, vending machines don't take $20 bills!

Sure they do. Maybe not the drink machine in your cafeteria, but there are many vending machines that take $20's. The stamp dispensers at my post office take them, and give change in Sacajaweas. Also, the ticket kiosk at my light rail system. The changer at the laundromat. The automatic car wash. There are plenty of machines that have to be updated whenever the bill changes. And for the people that have to pay for it, the last change was yesterday!

Re:Anti-counterfeit or vending lobby?

[thinkstoomuch]

We don't have this problem in the UK. A few years back, they introduced a nice new tech for vending machines.

First you have to understand that very few machines take notes here - our coin money has a reasonable value, and is the norm for machines.

The new vending machines check the coins by size, weight and electrical conductivity (all the coins have a slightly different alloy). Any change in coins, and just recalibrate the machines using software.

(train ticket machines do take notes, so I assume they're still afflicted. They take credit card/switch too though)

Re:Anti-counterfeit or vending lobby?

[Fizzl]

Actually. I have been working with gas stations systems for some time at a point.
I don't know how the "old stuff" works, but modern cash-regognition units can be trained for new money relatively easy.

Re:Anti-counterfeit or vending lobby?

[Temkin]

My Dad owns a coin-op laundrymat. It cost him over $1000 back in 1996 to upgrade the scanners on his change machines for the then "new" $20 bill. Hopefully, they'll sell an upgrade for this one. Otherwise, he'll be out big $$ for new change machines.

Re:Anti-counterfeit or vending lobby?

[blibbleblobble]

train ticket machines [in the UK] do take notes, so I assume they're still afflicted. They take credit card/switch too though

I think a change of currency is the last thing our train-ticket machines need to worry about! Last time I checked, fully half of them were completely broken through complete lack of maintenance.

about time

[lexcyber]

Haven't the technology for making perfect copies of dollarbills been know for the better part of half a century?

Look at australian dollars, apparantly they are the hardest to copy in the world. Also sweden has been pretty successfull with their new ideas for protecting money. Using all kinds of tricks with metal in the bills, uv-print, watermark, special paper, relief and on top of everything very complicated print
process.

Best thing that could happen for funny money

[doublem]

This will be a boon for counter fitters.

"Don't be an ass, it's not counterfeit, it's the new twenty that just came out this fall."

All a counter fitter needs to do is come up with a bill chock full of security features and start spending it like there's no tomorrow. As people get used to the new bill every few years, it will become commonplace.

Remember the story of the person who passed a $3.00 bill with Bill Clinton's face on it? All they could charge him with was failure to pay, since he hadn't really counter fitted any money.

Re:Best thing that could happen for funny money

[doublem]

counterfeiter vs counter fitter

Damn spell check. You'd think with the average spelling on slashdot, I'd get away with such a slip up.

As for the counterfeit bill I mentioned. My memory was flawed. It was $200 and George Bush, not $3.00 and Bill Clinton. (Thanks Unknown Poltroon (31628) ) Funny how your memory starts to fail as you age.

Google Cache

Danville DQ Gag 'Talk Of Town'
Restaurant, Residents React

UPDATED: 6:42 p.m. EST January 30, 2001
DANVILLE, Ky. -- It started out with a blizzard and now a Dairy Queen in Danville is getting an avalanche of attention.

This $200 bill was used at a Danville Dairy Queen Sunday
A woman who paid for her food with a fake $200 bill Sunday left with plenty of change. The bill had a picture of George W. Bush on the front and oil rigs on the back.

"That's the talk of the town," Danville resident Joseph Bourne said. "It's got to be one of those dumb blonde stories."

Added fellow resident Drew Hammond: "It's the kind of news I like to hear out of my own hometown. Usually things don't happen of great significance here. It gets a lot of attention."

The 18-year-old employee has offered to refund the store. Her manager, Mike Tracy, tried to be supportive, and said that she probably was just too busy to notice the mistake.

"We try to do things as quick as possible here," Tracy said.

At least he's being a good sport about it. The restaurant is now distributing coupons on the backs of fake $200 bills.

"We're going to play off this advertising a little bit and try to think of it as something positive," Tracy said.

Local law enforcement said that the joke became a crime when the woman took off with all that change.

"When the woman received the money and left with it, the joke ceased," Danville police officer Bob Williamson said.

Still, because there's no such thing as a $200 bill, the woman, if caught, couldn't even face federal counterfeit charges.

Re:Best thing that could happen for funny money

[yintercept]

Since the average bill only lasts from two to three years in circulation, 7-10 years is probably reasonable for changing the design. The big thing is that government needs to be very agressive in getting old currency out of the pipeline.

The bill change will be a let down to all the people who've been marking all of their currency with Where's George?

Re:Best thing that could happen for funny money

[ebh]

What's counter fitting got to do with cash?

We had our kitchen redone a couple years ago. The counter fitters came in, templated our cabinets, and in about a week came back with a custom fabricated counter, complete with sink. It was tricky getting the entire thing into the house, but once they did, fitting it was no problem.

They were a subcontractor, so they were paid by the main kitchen designers. I don't think cash was ever involved, so counterfeiting was not a problem.

Re:Best thing that could happen for funny money

[infinite9]

This will be a boon for counter fitters.

I'm not sure what a counter fitter is, but I'm a trained Diesel Fitter. :-) I work in lady's undergarment stores and say, "Dees'll fit her."

Re:Best thing that could happen for funny money

[Guppy06]

"All a counter fitter needs to do is come up with a bill chock full of security features and start spending it like there's no tomorrow."

After he gets his hands on currency-grade paper, that is. The graphics are the easy part, the inking method is a bit tricky, but the toughest part is probably getting your hands on some paper that feels and wears like the real thing.

"All they could charge him with was failure to pay, since he hadn't really counter fitted any money."

Urban myth if I ever heard one. If the piece of paper the counterfeiter tried to pass said that it was from the Federal Reserve and that it was legal tender from all debts, public and private, he'd be the textbook definition of a counterfeiter and would have had all sorts of fun with the Secret Service.

Anecdote

[Schnapple]

True story: a friend of mine went to a popular burrito joint in town and paid for his $5 burrito with a then-new $20. The cashier somewhat blindly thinks its a then-relatively-new $100, so gives him $95 in change instead of just $15. The friend took the money and left quickly.

I told him he was all horrible and evil for doing so - but I'm not sure I wouldn't have done the same.

Re:Anecdote

[snkline]

Ouch, I would never do this since I once worked as a cashier. I don't think your friend has any idea how much trouble that guy will be in when the register comes up $70 short.

Re:Anecdote

[digitalsushi]

I gave the first window at Wendy's a 10 dollar bill a few weeks ago, and they gave me back change for a 20. So I told the lady at the second window what she did while giving her a 10 dollar bill, and the lady put the 10 in her pocket and called me "retarded" right before shutting the window. I'm thinking that's ironic somehow.

Re:Anecdote

[Schnapple]

Should have called that 1-800 number and reported her. You know, since she called you retarded.

Re:Anecdote

[weston]

True story: last week I was shopping with a friend and the cashier somehow rang up the purchase at about $30 less than it should have been. Said friend pointed this out to the cashier, who then rang up the purchase at the correct price.

So retail folks often make mistakes. Sometimes in your favor, sometimes in favor of the store. Which is more impressive: remaining silent and taking advantage of it, or saying something?

Especially considering that the more you think about it, the more you realize society runs on trust and relies on people to do the right thing more often than not...

Re:Anecdote

[ichimunki]

Considering the error would have caused it to come up $80 short, perhaps the cashier should not be trying to compensate by only putting in a $10 from his own pocket (or short-changing a later customer). :)

Re:Anecdote

[Joe the Lesser]

I found a 20$ bill in an ATM with noone around. I left it, since I didn't need the money, but told my friends. The poorest of them went to get it.

If your friend has trouble paying his bills, then it's understandable.

If he makes 20$ an hour, he's an ass.

Re:Anecdote

[vistic]

I just would feel too guilty and icky to even enjoy the extra $30.

Re:Anecdote

[Politburo]

For me, it really depends on who I'm buying from. If I'm at a conglomostore like Walmart or McDonald's, screw em for hiring substandard workers. If I'm at the corner market, or a smaller store, I will tend to correct them if I notice an error in my favor. Of course, I always correct anyone who makes an error in the store's favor.

Re:Anecdote

[iabervon]

Where do you find a burrito joint that routinely breaks $100s? Anyway...

I think the worst problem with the current set of new bills is that they all look different from the old ones, but they all look like each other. I think people would do much better with new bills if they formed a logically matched set without being nearly so similar. As a really simple feature, just make the non-black printing on the black side a different color for each denomination. People care about the green back, but who cares that the colored medallion on the front is green? Some feature on the back should also be the denomination-specific color, so the backs look different. Perhaps the numbers, so they'd stand out more, too.

For that matter, they ought to print the bills on different weights of paper; then you could identify bills by feel, and you couldn't just bleach bills and print other values on the paper (make the higher values thicker, so you couldn't shave them down to approximate the feel).

Re:Anecdote

[stanmann]

Hey I shop at that Wendy's too... Same problem.... Well I usta eat there, lately the service has been getting so bad.

Re:Anecdote

[blibbleblobble]

"I just would feel too guilty and icky to even enjoy the extra $30"

Buy a Microsoft product with it.

Re:Anecdote

[Just Some Guy]

I bought a toy kitchen for my kid last Christmas. The thing cost something like $85, but the cash register scanned it as a $20 half-pipe for those little finger-bikes. I told the clerk that it was wrong, and he looked me in the eyes and said that the register said $20 plus tax, so that's what he was charging me. I actually tried to argue but he was rather intent.

On the one hand, I'm kind of happy that I got an $85 toy for $20, and even got to feel good for having tried to do the right thing.

On the other hand, I wish I'd bought four or five more and sold them on eBay for $70 (plus $25 shipping because, well, it's eBay). I'm too nice.

Re:Anecdote

[weston]

On the other hand, I wish I'd bought four or five more and sold them on eBay for $70 (plus $25 shipping because, well, it's eBay). I'm too nice.

That made me laugh out loud. :)

I've got an experience like yours, too. I stopped at a convenience store in Nebraska for dinner and some gasoline. Dinner was two slices of pizza, a bottle of Gatorade, and some fruit and candy. Gas was $10... the whole thing should have been at least $17. The purchase range up at $5 or $6. I pointed this out to the cashier, and he said "well, computer error. Guess the stuff is yours." Those are always the best. And I didn't even have to wonder if I could have sold the pizza slices on ebay. :)

Sometimes it's a really good thing to do from a human perspective, too. I once noted that a cashier had forgotten to ring up a tie after I'd gotten out to my car. I took it back in and payed for it. The cashier mentioned she'd lost her purse the week before, with $200 in it, and ID, but nobody had called, but it was good for her faith in humanity to see the contrast, even if she didn't get her money back. Your influence can be bigger than the difference in cash in the till...

Re:Anecdote

[Schnapple]

Where do you find a burrito joint that routinely breaks $100s?

It's called Freebirds and they're in Texas. They started out in College Station (Texas A&M, Bjarne Stroustroup) and they've branched out to Dallas, Austin and Houston. People wait in long lines to get a "monster" - essentially a large burrito. Plus there's the "super monster" for those with no respect for their own stomachs.

Re:Anecdote

[penis fish]

Microsoft product for $30? You're out of your mind, bub.

Re:Anecdote

[Narcissus]

Except for the fact that that "conglomostore" (in the case of McDonalds, at least) is still owned by some franchisee trying to make it (well, more than likely: a small percentage are owned by the company). Yeah, they hired "substandard workers" but if the corner store did, too, then they should deserve the same response.

At the end of the day, the McDonalds' guy is trying to do the same thing, but with a name you know: a lot of people who run with these franchises are looking to it as a form of retirement. It is definitely not a "conglomostore".

I can't speak for Walmart, but I'm guessing that they are not franchised, but it still doesn't make it right.

Re:Anecdote

[vistic]

I'd feel even ickier then for giving them money. What on Earth are you thinking?

Re:Anecdote

[NemesisStar]

I'm sorry, but that's not ironic.

One thing that might have made that situation ironic is if she had then shut her hand in the window and couldn't call for help, because to fit the $20 bill in her pocket (instead of the till) she had to remove her cell phone which was now out of reach.

That would be ironic AND poetically just.

Re:Anecdote

[Jon Abbott]

...lately the service [at Wendy's] has been getting so bad.

I have noticed this as well... My only guess is that it has to do with the fact that Dave Thomas is no longer alive... If you haven't read "Dave's Way", I highly recommend it! You can see while reading the book that he was half of the reason why Wendy's has survived the fast-food chain wars.

I hope to make money off it again

[swb]

When they released the new $10s (which was not long after the new $20s), I had several places where I used the new $10 give me the change as if I had given them a $20.

I think it happened 3-4 times within a week or so, I'm pretty sure I netted at least $40 off of that.

Re:I hope to make money off it again

[stanmann]

I had that happen also, and I told the person behind the counter that I had given her a 10, she argued the point vigorously, to the point where I accepted the $13 of change for my 10.

Re:I hope to make money off it again

[SexyAlexie]

Why not? Isn't the USA all about making money?

Rumanian Lei

[neonstz]

Some of the Rumanian lei-bills (at least the 10000 bill) are quite difficult to counterfeit (with a standard pc). They have a hole covered with transparent plastic (which also has some kind of watermarking). I don't see why anyone would counterfeit lei though, since the 10000 bill was worth 50 cents or less when I visited Bucharest.

Re:Rumanian Lei

[ehiris]

Actually the 2000 lei solar eclipse limited edition bill is the coolest bill I have ever seen. Not because of its buying power since its value is 10 cents but because it promotes space science on top of politcs and also looks cool.

And BTW, the country is called Romania not "Rumania". Romania has a lot more to do with the Romans then it has to do with rum.

Re:Rumanian Lei

[neonstz]

Yes, Romania of course...

Forgers (and whistleblowers) beware!

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

At the behest of the FBI (or maybe it is the secret service since counterfeiting is their purview) all color photocopiers in the USA embedded a watermark with a unique serial number identifying the copier used.

For some reason this fact is not well documented, but here is at least one reference(pdf) in an IBM report from 1998. See the section on tracking.

This can be a problem for cheap counterfeiters (well-equipped ones won't have a problem either acquiring a copier on the blackmarket or using a modified one) but it also can suck for whistleblowers making copies of documents. If the copier used can be identified it makes it that much easier for a vengeful company/government to identify the whistleblower and take "corrective action."

Re:Forgers (and whistleblowers) beware!

[innate]

The link you have says this was proposed, it does not say nor can I find any evidence that it was ever enacted.

In this (interesting) discussion from the House of Representatives in 2000, they talk about the current state of anti-counterfeit technology and mention that some copiers "scar" or refuse to print bills -- and discussion of implementing this in scanners too -- but there is no mention of serial number tracking.

Unfortunately Snopes hasn't said anything on the subject yet.

Re:Forgers (and whistleblowers) beware!

[Anonymous Coward]

Jah-Wren, you are absolutely right. Color copiers put a pattern that encodes the machines serial number, manufacturer, time and date, on every sheet of paper that puts out. You can confirm this by looking at a sheet of paper which has been copied in a color copier. In the white areas of the image, or the backgrounds, there is a matrix of small yellow dots which are clearly visible under a microscope. Those yellow dots create a code and it repeats throughout the entire image. The code in its entirty covers the area of a postage stamp approximately. It's very real, and very sad. Only the United States Secret Service, and the color copier manufacturers have the software to decode it. At least, that's the way it's supposed to be.

Re:Forgers (and whistleblowers) beware!

[Anonymous Coward]

That was a poor link to the IBM paper, but here is a good link to a fairly reliable source. (editor of the PRIVACY FORUM digest, a cousin to the RISKS FORUM digest which everybody on slashdot OUGHT to read regularly.)

Summary quote pulled from the body of the article:

In fact, rumors about this, often chalked up as an "urban legend," have been
circulating for a long time. This is a bit ironic, given that in the
copier/printer industry it's been well known for years--no secret--that
"invisible" IDs are imprinted on virtually all color xerographic output,
from (apparently) all of the manufacturers. But for persons outside of
"the trade," this hasn't been as widely known (even though the issue goes
back to the early 90's, and the topic has appeared in publications such as
the Wall Street Journal).

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

It's all about september 11

[Gamasta]

Probably everyone has already seen this. But it's worth posting... I hope it can also be done with the new bills.

Simple origami

More on it

Re:It's all about september 11

[JUSTONEMORELATTE]

Quote from your linked site:
Even worse than the $20, fold a new dollar coin in half, and it turns into a black helicopter.

--

Time to verify?

[Havokmon]

"It will still have a different watermark and security strip. You could tell the difference in about 15 seconds," Ferguson said.

Umm. 15 seconds is the MAX time a credit card terminal should take to authorize a transaction (including dial-time which should only be once if you have a lot of customers in a line). Do they really think people are going to spend that amount of time, PER BILL for each customer?

Re:Time to verify?

[wirelessbuzzers]

15 seconds is bullshit though. You just have to hold it up to the light. I clocked it at 4 seconds to carefully verify both the security thread and the watermark portrait on a current $20 bill.

Good security, bad taste

[hprotagonist0]

The last update of the bills made them look like Monopoly money. Now, they're just plain ugly. Come on, I mean: peach !?

Counterfeit Detection

[non]

in europe, many stores, kisoks, etc. have purchased small uv light detectors, especially after a flood of fake 50 bills. the interesting thing is that washed bills of any denomination usually fail this test. at one point i had carried a 50 that i had been told was fake by my bank for six months. i went to another bank and asked them about it, they told me that it was real, and then took me downstairs to while they checked it with the 100,000 machine they have. they also explained that there are very simple tests for checking a bill; they have little ridges stamped into the bill that can't be washed off and are very difficult to fake.

Re:Counterfeit Detection

[switcha]

...they have little ridges stamped into the bill that can't be washed off and are very difficult to fake.

Hey, there's your answer to the issue of the blind and bills farther up (down?) the page. Braille away on our bills dammit!

Re:Counterfeit Detection

[cristofer8]

That's why the US does tons of torture tests. Someone above mentioned them, so I won't retread here.

Re:Counterfeit Detection

[Guppy06]

US currency has something similar. There's a fluroescent strip woven into the paper that glows a different color under UV light for every denomination. They're also placed in different locations for different denominations.

There's also something involved with the watermark under UV light, but I can't remember the details.

Finally...

[surprise_audit]

Nice to see the US finally catching up with Europe...

How Long Before The Counterfeits Arrive?

[DoctorMabuse]

The last time a new $20 was issued, the Mexican counterfeiters had a high-quality bill within a week of the release. Anyone care to venture a guess as to how long it will take the Mexicans, Iranians and other folks to have the new bill in production?

Today's helpful hint: With the right halogen-based solution, you can strip the ink from crisp new one dollar bills and end up with genuine currency paper, complete with the colored threads.

Sorry to be a pedant...

[arvindn]

Little off the norm for Slashdot

You meant: A little off the norm for Slashdot

Dropping the article negates the meaning :)

Request for future features

[guacamolefoo]

Date: May 12, 2003
Re: New version of $20 bill

Dear Treasury Department (cc to Bureau of Printing and Engraving):

The new release of the product looks ok. I think it still needs some work, though. There are some additional features that I would like to see in the upcoming $20 bill v. 2.3 beta release:

1. P2P sharing
2. Centerfolds (!) (note: not Andrew Jackson - think modern, maybe Denise Richards)
3. Self-generation (try making paper from those Wizard's Apprentice broomsticks)
4. Encryption, so that only I can use my bills

BTW, please, please do implement a "software activation" thingy. That would be really lame.

Respectfully,
GF.

Re:Request for future features

[JUSTONEMORELATTE]

And OGG. It's gotta have OGG.

--

Are they brazilian looking?

[Transient0]

No.. but they are edging more towards looking like canadian bills (or even euros). Seriously though, I've always found that one the problems with American money is that it is too hard to tell the denominations of the bills apart at a glance. If they are going to start using different colors on different bills, good on them. Or they could go even one step further like the Euro and have different denomiations be slightly different sizes. I know this sounds wacky, but imagine trying to use American cash if you are blind.

Also... the article mentions 2-dollar bills. Since when have the States had Twos? We (Canada) got rid of ours almost a decade ago and the states is just starting to make them now? talk about behind the times. Or is that a joke?

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[B3ryllium]

I'm Canadian :) The new fives are cool. (As for my "Brazilian-looking" comment, it came from people who accused the new Canadian bills as looking too South American)

Anyway ... I don't recall the states having a two dollar bill, but they've had the one dollar bill for ages.

And they call *US* loonie.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[jd142]

Since when have the States had Twos?

For *decades*. Two dollar bills have been around for a very long time. I remember one of my great grandfathers would always give us kids a two dollar bill for our birthday. Doesn't sound like much until you realize he had a lot of great-grandkids.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[Transient0]

you see... waht with this being the internet, I still an't tell whether or not you are joking.

If there are two dollar bills are they a limited run, collectible currency thing like silver dollars? what do they look like? why have I never seen one?

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[jawtheshark]

As a European I did not know, and have never seen one. Seems they are collectors items nowadays. Being curious, I googled a picture . Neat... I wouldn't have believed it if someone would have given one to me.

Anyways, that new 20$ looks great! I like the design. Seems you guys doing a step in the right direction. Boy, had I trouble in the US keeping the different bills apart...

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[RoundTop-VJAS]

Actually, the US used to have a $2 bill.

The reason it was eliminated was the negative connutations of it. a $2 bill used to be the going rate for a Hooker. (Hense the phrase "a $2 whore")

It was eliminated due to thus negative stigma attached to it.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[BeBoxer]

Really? Don't tell my wife. She'll probably make me get rid of my uncut sheet of $2 bills.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[B3ryllium]

Mmmm, uncut. (hahah)

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[McDrewbie]

I never figured out why people had difficulty telling two different bills apart at a glance. Just glance at the number and voila you can see what bill it is.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[DarkEdgeX]

The United States has had a two dollar bill since at least the 70's (when I was born). I can't speak earlier than that, but surely Google could turn up some links to currency history sites.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[NickDngr]

Boy, had I trouble in the US keeping the different bills apart...

That's why we print the amount on all four corners in big, bold numbers.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[The Almighty Dave]

Boy, had I trouble in the US keeping the different bills apart...

The easiest way is to look at the number in the corner.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[bigbadwlf]

Typical of uneducated Canadians to think only their country has ever had the $2

Perhaps you missed this link that some AC was kind enough to post.
I'm Canadian and I knew that the USA has a few two dollar bills in circulation.

Bad troll! No biscuit!

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[SavingPrivateNawak]

If you do not think having bill of different color/size helps telling them apart, you're not honest...

Just imagine your coins having all the same color/size/weight!!
Nah, it would be easy to tell them apart and estimate how much do you have, there are numbers on them!

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[Gropo]

Since when have the States had Twos?

Since 1776.

An interesting thing to think about - in order to acheive $100:

One, $100 bill

Two, $50 bills

Five, $20 bills

Ten, $10 bills

Twenty, $5 bills

Fifty, $2 bills

One-Hundred, $1 bills

Makes a little more sense now, eh?

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[LamerX]

Here's a good fact for you...

In 1975 the Canadian dollar was worth the same as the US dollar. And before that, it was worth as much as 2X. Since the appearance of the US dollar hasn't changed much since then. I seriously doubt that it has anything to do with value.

Also, Canadian money will be exchanged at any place where you can exchange American money. Canadians probably use ATM machines when travelling, or even travellers cheques so that they don't have to worry about exchanging money.

Typical of an uneducated American to take cash with them when travelling out of the country. Canadians also aren't ignorant when they travel, and try to fit in by at least trying to speak the language, and carry the currency of the country that they are in.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[Transient0]

yeah. When I posted the grandparent comment, I knew I was asking for a bunch of "stupid canadian, look at the numbers" responses. I didn't say that I CAN'T tell the bills apart, I said it wasn't CONVENIENT. Here in Canada I can open my wallet and tell how much money I have by glancing in the top, even just seeing the edges of the bill. And I can make sure I get more or less the right change in a transaction just my noting the colors in the pile of money, without actually counting it.

Yes, compared to a lot of things (like proving Fermat's Last Theorem) differentiating American bills is a pretty easy task. But, considering how often everyone has to do it, you gain a lot of convenience by making it even easier.

I would like to see some sort of empirical study for how often people don't notice that they've been given the wrong change in the USA versus in Canada.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[eyeye]

More colourful notes would make it easier to tell them apart wouldnt it.

The poster said he had trouble, not that it was impossible.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[IdleTime]

Spoken as a true literate American!

As far as I know, I have not visited all the countries on the earth yet, but not far from it, US is one of the very few countries that have the same size and color for all their bills. This makes it really hard for people with eye problems to see the difference.

Besides that fact, if having all the bills the same size and color is the right thing to do, why not the same with the coins?

US is backwards again, as usual. But, the rest of the world knows better, thank God!

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[Amiga Trombone]

If there are two dollar bills are they a limited run, collectible currency thing like silver dollars? what do they look like? why have I never seen one?

I don't know it they're still printed, but they are real, and still in circulation. They just not commonly used.

Here's a link to the Bureau of Engraving and Printing. The have a picture of Jefferson on them.

And here's a link to a funny story about someone who recently tried to spend one at a Taco Bell.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[blibbleblobble]

"Just imagine your coins having all the same color/size/weight!!"

The americans don't use coins: their currency is so low that they have notes for £0.60, and anything smaller than that is just coins which aren't worth the metal they're made from.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[nolife]

One of my relatives worked at a 711 and used to get all kinds of coins and dollars. It is amazing how many people buy beer on Saturday nights with silver dollars and pennies, 2 dollar bills, steel pennies, indian head nickels the newer gold colored dollar coins, fifty-cent pieces etc... She used to swap out the collector stuff with bills from her pocket when she could. Half of these bums would pay with jewerly if they could.

As for the two dollar bill being real, did you ever hear the saying as phony as a three dollar bill or as in Limp Bizkit's "Three dollar bill y'all$"? They skipped over two because it is real!

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[DNS-and-BIND]

Try finding an international ATM with your logo on it in a strange country at night when you're hungry. Many countries actually prefer that you pay in dollars, as tomorrow and next year the dollar will still be worth something, unlike many currencies that unfortunate people around the world are forced to use inside their own countries.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[pianophile]

It was eliminated due to thus negative stigma attached to it.

It was not eliminated .

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[errxn]

Ha! Limp Bizkit preaching about being phony? The irony amuses me.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[issachar]

In 1975 the Canadian dollar was worth the same as the US dollar.

Who cares what the Canadian dollar was in 1975? What matters is what it's worth TODAY. You make us sound like a sad little country trying to recapture past glory. And it's extremely simplistic to think of a high currency value as automatically indicating economic strength. Should we conclude that the British economy is stronger b/c the pound is worth more than the dollar?

Also, Canadian money will be exchanged at any place where you can exchange American money. Canadians probably use ATM machines when travelling, or even travellers cheques so that they don't have to worry about exchanging money. Typical of an uneducated American to take cash with them when travelling out of the country. Canadians also aren't ignorant when they travel, and try to fit in by at least trying to speak the language, and carry the currency of the country that they are in.

I'm Canadian, and I travel. If you'd travelled anywhere, (outside the easily marked path of backpacking in Europe), you'd realise that relying on your ATM card is extremely unwise. The intelligent traveller carries a credit card, travellers cheques and US dollars. US dollars are accepted everywhere in the world and many merchants, (most in some countries), prefer US dollars to local currency. EVERY wise traveller takes US dollars with them if they're going to be travelling outside of Europe or MAJOR cities.

Canadians also aren't ignorant when they travel

Only when they post on /. about how ignorant Americans are? Now you're just embarassing my country. Seriously. It's embarassing when I see Canucks shooting their mouths off about things they know nothing about simply b/c they learned in school that Americans were dumb. Please stop.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[issachar]

The americans don't use coins: their currency is so low that they have notes for £0.60, and anything smaller than that is just coins which aren't worth the metal they're made from.

I'm sure you're trolling, but I'm a sucker anyway. Coins are a much cheaper way of making currency because they last longer. The reason why Britain has a £1 coin and Canada has $1 and $2 coins is that they last longer than equivelent notes, so the government doesn't have to spend money replacing the worn out bills. The low value of the US dollar would make them more inclined to use coins, not less.

I don't know why the Americans don't use $1 coins, but I suspect it's a combination of two things. Firstly, people in the states don't like the idea. (I know I was ticked when they introduced $1 and $2 coins in Canada). Secondly, there is a LARGE amount of US currency in international circulation. Reissuing it is not to be taken lightly.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[cetan]

That's funny because most BLIND people I've met have no problems telling one bill from another.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[pkunzipper]

Just look for the "Cirrus" logo on any of those machines and you know you're home free. As a visitor and/or resident of 21 countries, this advice does not come without reason.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[arkane1234]

That, along with the fact that alot of people in America carry quite a few 1 dollar bills along with them "just in case" they want to get something cheap, or find themselves in a position where they need a dollar for something. Carrying around coins is far heavier than the bills, making it more burdensome than just slapping a few bills in your wallet and going your way.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[PeteEMT]

Best way to get a dollar in coin form that I've found is the Stamp Machine at the Post Office, it gives them as change.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[fireboy1919]

We do use coins. Ever heard of silver dollars? Its what Americans call our dollar coins. If you buy stamps from a machine here, the change is in silver dollars (you can put a twenty in some of those machines to get $12 in stamps).

The trouble, though, is that silver engravings aren't very easy to read - at least not compared to paper. The main reason I've heard that they're not used more here is because they are roughly the size and shape of the much older and more highly recognized fifty-cent piece - and there is the dilemma. If we changed them, and made them smaller, they'd look like quarters. If we changed them and made them bigger, they'd weigh a LOT. Getting rid of the other conflicting coins isn't really an option, as the previous poster mentioned.

I think we should put a hole in them. That would make it easy to tell them apart.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[jawtheshark]

Yeah, except that when you're a tourist and there are 20 other tourists waiting in a queue behind you and you have to sort through all your bills to find the correct amount while the others get impatient, it's a real pain.
No wonder I usually use my credit card in the US. I still got over 100$ of cash in my wallet from my latest trip to the US... I just stopped using it after a while. I mean, if you can pay your 2$ beverage at the bar with your credit card, why bother. (That would be frowned upon here in Europe)

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[issachar]

sorry, I should have been more specific. I'm aware that the US has coins, what I meant was that you don't have dollar coins instead of dollar bills the way Canada or Britain do. The hole in them is a great idea.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[SomeoneGotMyNick]

The change machine at work dumps handfuls of 'alternate cash' when you change a $5 bill. You get:

(3) Sacagawea Dollars (gold ones)
(1) SBA Dollar (Susan B. Anthony)
(4) Quarters (generally recent state quarters)

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[jawtheshark]

... Which means, I have to take out all my bills out of the wallet to sift through them. Meaning I show everyone around that I have over 500$ in my wallet. Very very good idea... NOT...
Here I just pull out a blue note when I need 20, and not the green one because that's 100.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[SomeoneGotMyNick]

Color: It doesn't help me tell them apart when it accidently gets mixed with the Monopoly money.

Size: I've been to Turkey. They have different sized bills also. I hated how the smaller ones got lost inside my wallet. They also don't fold/roll up well with each other. Although they've been watermarking their bills with Ataturk's image for decades. That was good idea.

Weight: Make them the same size. It'll be easier to fake a quarter with a nickel in the vending machine. The arguement about same sized coins is useless simply because having them different sizes makes a vending discriminate coins so well, adding to their convenience.

I suppose this circles back to bills being the same size for ease of use in vending machines and bill changers.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[UserGoogol]

They're in full circulation, but they're not exactly popular so banks rarely ask for them.

Why two's are so unpopular has a lot of legend behind it. (It's supposedly associated with prostitution and gambling but I doubt that.) I think the most logical explanation is that it is just a bad number for a bill. You have the one, and you have the five. The difference between a one and a two is rather small, and thusly it's not incredibly useful to pile your money into a two. If you're going to have a bill that small, you might as well go all the way.

Also, once the two dollar bill got unpopular, people didn't really want the hassle of having to deal with people unfamilar with the two dollar bill, so the popularity dropped further.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[Yunzil]

If you do not think having bill of different color/size helps telling them apart, you're not honest...

I'm not honest then. I've been in England, where the money has different sizes and colors, and I still can't tell the damn things apart when I'm peeking in my wallet without looking at the denomination in the corner.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[DNS-and-BIND]

Yeah that's what I mean. They're next to impossible to find unless you're in a downtown area of a major city.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[B3ryllium]

According to the Canadian Government, our economy is more robust today than at any time in the past decade. It's funny to see the Canadian dollar at $0.72 American, since it's been at $0.67 for so long.

As for travelling ... well, I've never travelled. I've only left BC and ventured a few miles into Washington. But something tells me that carrying any cash on vacation, at least in some areas, might be a poor idea. Traveller's checks are insured, after all.

Yes, relying on an ATM card is unwise - but the statement that "few banks will exchange canadian money" a few posts above is totally untrue.

Have you ever seen a bank that would refuse to take money from someone?

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[prockcore]

I don't know it they're still printed, but they are real, and still in circulation. They just not commonly used.


They're still printed. Go to any dog or horse track and you'll see your share of $2 bills. They're everywhere.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[Gropo]

Are there $25 bills? Nope. Are there $50 bills? Yep!

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[spyfrog]

Does anyone actually use the 100 euro? Isn't it a bit impractical as payment? For instance, I live in Sweden. 100 euro is about 1000 sek. I never use the swedish 1000 sek bill - it is simply a bit to large (if I buy expensive thing, I use my VISA) and you can't get it in the ATM. Can you get a 100 euro bill in the ATM?

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[patchmaster]

The $2 bill has been around since 1776 (printing authorized by the Continental Congress). Thomas Jefferson is pictured on the front. (Presumably someone else was on the front of the 1776 $2 bill.) The latest $2 bill series originated in 1996. According to the US Treasury Department, as of 1999 there were $1,166,091,458 worth of $2 bills in circulation.

In my lifetime, the only place $2 bills ever got much circulation was at the horse track. Historically, $2 was the minimum bet, so having a single bill to cover that amount came in handy. It probably also made for easier payoffs before the days of computers and instant odds calculations.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[ncc74656]

I don't know why the Americans don't use $1 coins, but I suspect it's a combination of two things. Firstly, people in the states don't like the idea.

When the Susan B. Anthony dollar coin was introduced in 1979, the nation was gripped by a pretty nasty recession brought about by Jimmy Carter's failed economic policies. Double-digit inflation eroded the value of people's money. That the new coin was disturbingly similar in size to the quarter didn't go unnoticed...not only did a dollar have the same buying power as the quarter did a few years earlier, but you could now get it in a coin that was about the same size as a quarter. (It's just barely larger than a quarter; you have to hold two of them together to see the difference.)

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[issachar]

Yes, relying on an ATM card is unwise - but the statement that "few banks will exchange canadian money" a few posts above is totally untrue. Have you ever seen a bank that would refuse to take money from someone?

Yes I have. Katmandu in Nepal. Several places wouldn't take Canadian cash. A few refused to take Canadian dollar travellers cheques. Others that did take them gave me a truly awful rate. US dollar travellers cheques were given a rate much closer to the international exchange rate.

Exclusively carrying cash is of course a poor idea. The wise thing to do is carry more than one form of currency and wear a money belt. Don't put all your money in the belt though. You don't want to be digging into that in a public area. I always take the following on trips: ATM card, Visa card, US dollar traveller cheques and US dollars in cash.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[IWannaBeAnAC]

They are pretty rare, but I think most (all?) shops accept them. I havn't encountered an ATM that gives them out, but I did recieve some once (in Germany - maybe they go in for big notes?) as reimbursement for travel expenses.

There are also 200 and 500 euro notes (I think 200 is yellow-ish, 500 is red-ish) which I have never seen, and probably never will. A lot of shops have a sign saying they won't accept them.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[JourneymanMereel]

Besides that, have you ever tried to give a stripper a $1 coin... it just doesn't seem like it would have the same effect ;)

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[The Almighty Dave]

Just imagine your coins having all the same color/size/weight!!
Nah, it would be easy to tell them apart and estimate how much do you have, there are numbers on them!

In the U.S., coins don't have their value as a number on them, the value is spelled out (one cent, five cents , one dime, etc).

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[kfx]

The easiest way is to look at the number in the corner.

So very true. I dont know why foreginers compain so much--as a literate American, I have no trouble at all distinguishing between bills by number or even by the look of the design on the bill. There's simply no need to make your money look like it fell out of a Monopoly box. If you can't count well enough to tell the bills apart, you shouldn't bother trying to use money in the first place.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[holt]

I'm an American currently living in Europe (Ireland), and I don't think that the different colored-and-sized bills makes things any easier than the same sized dollar bills of various denominations. Perhaps it's because I haven't grown up differenciating currency by color or size. But automatically assuming that what works well in one culture will work well in another is asinine. It reminds me of the stereotypical American.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[El Cabri]

For most other currencies, the 1-2-5-10 series applies to coins as well. The quarter is a pre-decimalization oddity.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[jawtheshark]

The most common ones are indeed 5, 20 and 50 Euro which are distributed out of ATM's. You can get the bigger bills though, if you go to the counter of bank. I live in a country known for it's banking, so that might explain why I'm a bit more exposed.
I've often seen the green ones (never had one though... my post was just an example). The 200 and 500 bills (yellow and grey) exist, but I've never seen them live. I've never seen a shop that has signs saying that they don't accept them (as the other poster mentioned), but I've never tried, so I don't know. On the other hand, it's not as if you see the "bigger" bills like 100$ often either in the US. (There is a thousand, right?)
Same here: expensive == VISA. Added bonus, you get only charged for real one month after purchase. ;-)

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[portforward]

I prefer using my debit card here in the states as well. It also comes right out of my checking account. I HATE getting coins as change because of pennies. Yeah, there are coin machines, but they charge you a percentage. I also like having a running automated tab of expenditures.

Plus when I use cash there is no way for the UN/New World Order to track me, so the black helicopters tend to follow me more often.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[blate]

Yes, $2 bills are still produced, are in circulation, and are legal tender. They are apparently very popular at race tracks and a few other obscure locations. They're kind of neat -- the artwork on the back side is pretty.

If you want one, a good place to get one is at your local bank. They usually have a couple floating around.

Cashiers hate them because there isn't a slot in the money drawer for them. Also, a lot of people don't even know they exist, so they'll think you're trying to pass forged money.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[Guppy06]

The US $2 bill, like the US $1 and $0.50 coins, are in a bit of a Catch-22.

1. The BEP printed up a series of $2 bills around 1995
2. The bills are distributed to banks to be inserted into circulation
3. But the banks generally don't hand out $2 unless they're specifically asked for
4. Nobody gets $2 bills from the bank
5. Nobody puts $2 bills into actual circulation
6. The banks are sitting on gobs and gobs of $2 bills
7. The banks never run out of $2 bills
8. The banks never ask the Federal Reserve to replenish their stock of $2 bills
9. The BEP doesn't print any new $2 bills

Despite their artificial rarity (they're "in circulation," just not really in circulation), US $2 bills aren't collector's items. They're worth $2.00. If you want some, go in to any bank and ask to change a larger bill. Just remember that, like with the $1 and $0.50 coins, you'll get reactions ranging from funny looks to outright anger* if you try to pay for anything with these.

*(I swear to God a former roommate of mine would go ballistic whenever I tried to repay a debt to him with dollar coins)

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[amRadioHed]

How come the random guys walking by could tell what denominations you had a wad of so easily?

Honestly, non-americans complain so much about our monochromatic currency, but it's really not a problem. If you're bills are organized in your wallet like mine are (don't tell me I'm the only neurotic freak that sorts the bills), it's a piece of cake finding exactly what you need.

That being said, I really do like the new design. It's nothing too radical, very cool.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[MegaHamsterX]

Nah, it would be cool, it'd be like the dancer winning the jackpot on a slot machine when she's done dancing :-)

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[babymac]

Have you ever seen a bank that would refuse to take money from someone?

Yep. I live in St. Louis, MO. In 1989 I returned from a trip to France with about $40 worth of Francs. I had to call *many* banks before I found one (miles away) that would exchange my francs for dollars. In France, places like these were everywhere. In America...you'd better look long and hard. My mother at one point tried to talk me into keeping the money, but I was 17 years old and $40 was too much to just give up as useless!

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[Jaysyn]

Matt Murdock, is that you?

Jaysyn

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[Lectrik]

Weight: Make them the same size. It'll be easier to fake a quarter with a nickel in the vending machine. The arguement about same sized coins is useless simply because having them different sizes makes a vending discriminate coins so well, adding to their convenience.

I work as a tec in an arcade and i'm glad that most coins are different sizes, the mechanisms we use to accept our tokens (while rejecting almost everything else) is a realy simple piece of equipment containing 2 moving parts, mostly to prevent coins crossing the switch area close enough together to keep the switch from re-opening.
We have a mechanized token counter and we have to keep track of the earnings of the games. Unfortunately our counter chokes and makes a racket when it swallows a quarter. Since it's slightly larger than our tokens it goes into the intake just far enough so the machine can't clear it on it's own. Only one game is old and archaic enough to not have any coin return slot and instead puts rejected coins (including 10's of dollars a week in quarters) directly into the token basket. It's totally annoying and once we found it faster to just count those tokens by hand while the machine counted the other games.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[instarx]

Sheesh - that is absolute baloney. First, its a two-bit whore not a two dollar whore; and second, US politicians are often ridiculous, but they're not stupid enough to think that a lack of $2 bills is going to do anything at all to prostitution. Hundred dollar bills are the lingua franca of the drug trade, but don't expect them to be recalled anytime soon. Two-dollar bills were phased out because inflation decreased the value of the dollar to the point where there simply wasn't enough difference between a $1 and $2 amount. It wasn't worth the cost or effort to make them or sort them.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[b1t r0t]

And here's a link to a funny story about someone who recently tried to spend one at a Taco Bell.

What do you mean "recently"? This story is almost ten years old.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[DeputySpade]

Besides that fact, if having all the bills the same size and color is the right thing to do, why not the same with the coins?

I would think that the answer to this would be obvious even to a *ahem* non-American. A coin was originally a commodity. It _WAS_ the money. The size of the coin and the material it was made of was the source of its value. Dollar bills were certificates for a commodity, not a commodity in and of themselves. As all certificates are equally useless untill you cash them in at which point the only important bit is the number in the corner, there's no ihnerent value in making them all different. Of course, they are anyway and anybody with half of one functional eye can tell the difference between the common bills at a glance. What makes you think that dying the money like easter eggs makes it more intuitive? Prices are not listed on items in any store in London as "One blue bill and two red ones" so why are different colors so much less inherently confusing? You still have to read the number if you're unfamiliar with the currency. Like another poster said, if you can't be bothered to look at the numbers that are printed on all eight corners, you shouldn't be in charge of the money anyway.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[LamerX]

Wow, okay there... Did you read the comment I was replying to? I was just trying to point out what an asshole the guy was for calling some guy an ignorant Canadian for not knowing about the US $2 bill. Big fucking deal, why don't you go write a book?

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[Arker]

I think that's funny, I live in Europe, but I'm from the US, I know everyone here seems so used to the different colours and sizes of notes and thinks the US ones are confusing - but it was never confusing to me. You don't have to take your bills out of the wallet to figure out which is which, you just flip hold the corner of the wad with finger and thumb and let them flip... normally you sort them when you get them, when they go in the wallet, anyway. I do that with european bills too, the larger denominations go to the back the small to the front, without even thinking about it, just habit. To me, the european currencies are strange, yes the colours and sizes make it particularly easy to distinguish the denominations, but I never had any trouble doing that just by flipping the corners anyway... and they just don't look like money. They look like the banknotes in a childrens game, not something real. I guess it's just a matter of what you're used to. I know the new 20s are NOT well received in the US, again, too much like something out of a childrens game, not like real money.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[jawtheshark]

So real money should look boring? (Not colourfull, not pretty)
Everybody it's own I guess.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[holt]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean. I'm not saying that having multi-colored money is bad... I'm just saying that it's not necessarily the best way of doing money for a particular country. If Americans don't want multi-colored money, then the Fed shouldn't put out multi-colored money. What do cars have to do with this?

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[Arker]

It's not a matter of boring or not pretty. Greenbacks are very pretty. Ever look at the detail on them? They're really quite incredible. So it's not that they are boring, or not pretty, I think they're quite incredible works of art. But they're very dignified works of art, where the european money is more... dignified would not be the word, restrained would not be the word... no. Something quite the opposite.

Either type spends the same, and I've never had any trouble knowing which bill was which with either type, and I'm quite happy to get paid with either type. But the old Greenbacks will always look more like real money to me, I suspect.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[jawtheshark]

That's only because you're used to it. Money is money. The greenbacks look ugly to me. I have some here, I don't see what you mean with detail. Look at a 20 Euro, it has a lot of detail too.
My opinion, your opinion.... We won't agree on this topic.
Fact is: European (and other countries) currency is more modern. Better protected against forgery, and often designed for the blind and bad seeing. Your greenback has none of these... The US could pull it off too, modernising it's whole series of bills. It happened here, without much problems.

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[Arker]

That's only because you're used to it. Money is money.

I believe that was my point. ;)

My opinion, your opinion.... We won't agree on this topic.

I think if you weren't so set on disagreeing with me you might realise we already agree, for the most part.

I have a 20 euro in hand atm, looking at it now, it's more 'modern' in a sense, but that's not necessarily better. The little patterns look computer generated to me, I don't know if they are or not, but they give that appearance. The greenbacks have intricate patterns in the engravings that have all sorts of irregularities and humanity to them, intentionally. There is no way you can be looking at a greenback of any denomination next to a 20 euro bill and think they are comparable in terms of detail of engraving, the euro doesn't hold a candle there. The greenbacks don't have the flashy space-age-looking shiny strip on them, but for years they have had a very small hard to find strip embedded that serves the same purpose. I really don't believe it's any harder to counterfeit one than the other. Certainly the euro paper would be a lot easier to match, it feels cheap actually... greenbacks are printed on a very special paper that's almost impossible to get, you can rub it for a moment and it will turn very smooth, like satin... anyway my point all along was it's more a matter of what you're used to and what you expect than any 'objective' superiority of one design over another.

Actually I kind of like the Swedish bills, they're like the euros in having different sizes and colours, but the designs are a step up in my opinion, they look more like they were really designed and not just generated, and the paper doesn't feel so cheap for some reason. But regardless, the important thing is that you can spend them, everything else is fluff really...

Re:Are they brazilian looking?

[arkane1234]

man, now that would look real odd after a while of not emptying... :P

Coming soon..

[PerspexAvenger]

Ameridollars(c) sponsored by Sony(tm) Playstation(tm)?

What goes on NintendoBucks?

Re:Coming soon..

[Conspir8or]

What goes on NintendoBucks?

Who else? Mario of course!

Yeah, yeah! Re:Becoming more and more like Europe

[StefanJ]

Next thing you know, these traitor$ will be pulling other Socialist-communist tricks, like putting scientists and authors and artists on our money!

Damn them and their evil black collektivist souls!

Quick Martha, git me my gun!

Dollar coins

[PateraSilk]

(soapbox)
What I wanna know is, when are they going to phase out the dollar bill? The Sacagawea dollar coin went the way of the Susan B because they kept printing singles. Coins have a pocket life of 30 years, compared to 3 for bills. If we're gonna spend the time and money in a coin let's actually make it work.
(/soapbox)

Re:Dollar coins

[aksansai]

The problem with the Sacagawea (sp?) dollar is that people hoarded them instead of actually using them in regular circulation. It was a problem of the supply could not match up well with the demand for consumers and collectors.

Now, if they would print something on the dollar like....... well, something simple that would not have vast historical value, then perhaps it would not be such a collectors item.

Re:Dollar coins

[PateraSilk]

The problem with the Sacagawea (sp?) dollar is that people hoarded them instead of actually using them in regular circulation.
Wow. I had no idea. Well, see, that's the thing--if they'd stopped printing singles, they could have forced the coins into circulation.

(grouse)
And they could have made it a little bigger than the quarter while they were at it. I know the vending machine mafia was against it but you really need some tactile feedback to determine the coins in your pocket.
(/grouse)

Re:Dollar coins

[yy1]

To me, the dollar coin is perfect for vending machines, yet not even the government supports this.

If you take the Metro in Washington, DC, the nation's capitol, and put a 20 in the machine for your fare, you will get change in quarters.

Almost no vending machines accept the dollar coin either, this is the perfect use for them yet nothing accepts them. If they can't even use 'em in their back yard, do they expect anyone else to use them either?

Re:Dollar coins

[MorePower]

NO NO NO! I hate coins! I wish they would phase ALL coins out (and maybe issue $0.25 bills). Bills fold up nicely and fit into my wallet. Coins make a big, heavy, bulky, noisy lump in my pocket and make it hard to get my keys out without accidentally dumping a bunch of coins on the ground.

Re:Dollar coins

[Tenebrious1]

The Sacagawea dollar coin went the way of the Susan B because they kept printing singles.

No, they went that way because nobody used them.

They are too heavy to carry. I have a couple sitting in the ashtray of my car in case I need to get a soda or something, but I never carry any in my pocket- they're just too bulky to replace singles.

Second, most vending machines still don't accept them. They get stuck, and you lose a buck.

Third, you ever try slipping a dollar coin into a stripper's g-string?

Re:Dollar coins

[McDutchie]

In Europe we have 1 and 2 coins, but there have been calls to change those to bills because people tend to ascribe low value to coins and spend them too easily. This is true especially in Italy where they used to count in thousands of liras.

Here in the Netherlands we were used to coins up to f5 (2,27) before the changeover, though, so we like the coins. Goes to show how hard it is to get consensus about that kind of thing.

Re:Dollar coins

[angle_slam]

The Sacagawea dollar coin went the way of the Susan B because they kept printing singles.
No, they went that way because nobody used them.

And nobody used them because they kept printing singles.

Re:Dollar coins

[sebmol]

In general, it seems like Americans don't like change. In many instances I have seen a lot of people hording change in change jars that get emptied out every now and then in exchange for bills.

Personally, here are some reasons I prefer not to use change:

• Unless you are used to it, it's to know how much coins are worth. In many other countries, coins feature large numerals stating the value of the coin (e.g. a big 1 or 10 on the face). American coins don't. If you don't know what a dime is (10 cents), you're out of luck. The quarter, nickel and penny show the value in ridiculously small print.
• The dime is way too small. Coins should increase in size as they increase in value. So, a penny should be smaller than a nickel. A nickel should be smaller than a dime, and so on. Again, when you see American coins for the first time, you will have no idea what a dime is worth.
• American wallets typically have no change pockets. That means that the only other place to keep change are pockets in your pants/purse/etc.
• Until $1 and $2 coins replace bills, people will prefer using bills to coins. The $1 bill is the most commonly used piece of currency.
• Coins come in too few denominations. For coins to become more widely adapted, 2c, 20c and 50c coins would have to be introduced. Also, the quarter doesn't really fit in when trying to make exact cent payments. If a 20c or 50c coin was available, coin use would be much easier.

Until these things change, I doubt you will see $1 coins widely accepted. It's also important to note that while the vending machine industry would love to build new machines for the new coins, those companies having to order them will spend considerable efforts at lobbying against such changes.

Re:Dollar coins

[Wireless Joe]

D'accord! The biggest complaint that I hear about switching to the dollar coin is, "I don't want to have all that change in my pocket." But you never have to have more than four of them in your pocket at a time. Get five dollar coins, change it for a fiver.

My friends would rather walk around with a pocket full of coins than try to count out exact change when they make a purchase. Sometimes I have to wonder just how deserved the "lazy American" stereotype is based on little observations like this.

Re:Dollar coins

[genka]

...however in nearby Baltimore, MD metro ticket machines accept coins only, including $1. You need to chnage paper $$ into the coins to get a ticket.

Re:Dollar coins

[Politburo]

Get a changepurse.

Re:Dollar coins

[sebmol]

Definitely. However, I doubt that these coins will be changed to bills. Bills are more expensive in the long run because they only last a few years. Coins can easily last a decade or more. In fact, I still have German coins from the 1950's that looks pretty decent.

I think in this instance, people used to high-value denominations due to inflation (primarily spain, italy, greece) will just have to get used to coins.

Re:Dollar coins

[pommiekiwifruit]

Get trousers with two pockets, e.g. a left one and a right one.

Re:Dollar coins

[Richy_T]

It is definitely something about the currency, In the U.K. I would always use change wherever I could. Since moving to the USA, there's a change jar that fills up pretty quickly.

In addition to your suggestions, I would also offer this one. In the U.K., sales tax is included in the price of items listed. This means that with a bit of mental arithmetic, I can work out exactly how much I am going to have to pay and get it ready while I am standing in the queue. Also, purchases tend to be rounded to multiples of 5 or 10 [yes, yes, multiples of 10 are multiples of 5] pence. In the U.S., the sales tax means that you usually don't know the cost until it's time to fork over the mulah. At this point, you don't want to seem like some old lady fishing about for change so you just fork over a wad of bills and let the cashier do the change thing.

Something else I've noticed is that in the U.K., I'd keep my notes in my wallet. Here in the U.S., I just keep them in a separate pocket. I suspect this may be because it is easier to sort and recognise U.K. bills in a wallet whereas for U.S. ones, you really require them out and in your hand to get a good recognition of the different denominations.

Rich

Re:Dollar coins

[Yunzil]

The dime is way too small. Coins should increase in size as they increase in value.

Why?

Again, when you see American coins for the first time, you will have no idea what a dime is worth.

I have a stack of English coins here, and the order from smallest to largest is 5p, 1p, 1 pound, 10p, 2 pounds. I don't have a 2p coin handy, but I remember that it's pretty big. So it's not just the US.

The $1 bill is the most commonly used piece of currency.

Which means if it gets replaced, I have to walk around with a bunch of heavy coins. Not only that, but under your scheme, it would have to be the largest coin! :-b

If a 20c or 50c coin was available, coin use would be much easier.

Um, you can get 50 cent coins. Tell me you've never seen a Kennedy half-dollar. They are big, bulky, and whenever someone gets one in change, they horde it.

Re:Dollar coins

[Yunzil]

But you never have to have more than four of them in your pocket at a time. Get five dollar coins, change it for a fiver.

But since dollar bills are so light, I don't *have* to change it, see. :) Plus I'd feel like I was holding up the line if I had to ask the checkout person to be a money changer too. Also, it's just more convenient to have a bunch of dollar bills for things like vending machines.

Re:Dollar coins

[molo]

Third, you ever try slipping a dollar coin into a stripper's g-string?

Cheapskate. Try a fiver.

Re:Dollar coins

[sebmol]

The dime is way too small. Coins should increase in size as they increase in value.

Why?

So I can find the right coin without necessarily having to look at them. It also makes it easier for people with less than perfect vision to sort them out. And it's logical.

Again, when you see American coins for the first time, you will have no idea what a dime is worth.

I have a stack of English coins here, and the order from smallest to largest is 5p, 1p, 1 pound, 10p, 2 pounds. I don't have a 2p coin handy, but I remember that it's pretty big. So it's not just the US.

I know it's not. German money was the same. The 0.50 DM coin was smaller than the 0.10 DM coin. I believe that came from the fact that the amount of metal the coin was made of was worth 0.50 DM at the time the piece was introduced.

The $1 bill is the most commonly used piece of currency.

Which means if it gets replaced, I have to walk around with a bunch of heavy coins. Not only that, but under your scheme, it would have to be the largest coin! :-b

Correct. But then we'd also have $2 coins to make up for it. The reason you have so many $1 bills in your pocket (if you do) is that the $2 bill is close to extinct and definitely not in wide circulation.

If a 20c or 50c coin was available, coin use would be much easier.

Um, you can get 50 cent coins. Tell me you've never seen a Kennedy half-dollar.

I have never seen in person, uh, coin a 50c coin because...

They are big, bulky, and whenever someone gets one in change, they horde it.

Re:Dollar coins

[innate]

The way to have made the "golden dollar" successful would be to use it in daily transactions.

Most people don't get coins from a bank. You get paper bills from your bank, but almost all the coins you have came as change from a retail transaction.

No retailers that I know of were using the golden dollar in change. If the Treasury had teamed up with a high-profile retailer like McDonalds or Safeway it would have been much more successful and others would have followed suit.

Re:Dollar coins

[5KVGhost]

(rant)
Please, God, no. Who still thinks that dollar coins are a good idea? And why? We've tried it twice now and nobody uses the damn things if they can help it.

I don't care if other countries use them, or if you like nice shiny things, or if they're more durable. Giant cubes of lead would be even more durable, but I don't want to carry them around in my pocket, either.

I have eight one-dollar bills in my wallet right now. Why in the name of heaven would I want to carry eight coins instead, in addition to the quarters, nickels, and dimes I already have in my pocket? People may eventually stop using $1 bills but it won't be because they prefer carrying the coins, and trying to force them into it makes no sense at all.

It's a dumb idea and it won't work. Go away.
(/rant)

Re:Dollar coins

[5KVGhost]

It has nothing to do with being lazy, friend. Stateside, one dollar bills are readily accepted by vending machines of all types; fives are not. If I have a five-dollar bill I have to find someone who will make change.

Re:Dollar coins

[daveo0331]

In addition to your suggestions, I would also offer this one. In the U.K., sales tax is included in the price of items listed. This means that with a bit of mental arithmetic, I can work out exactly how much I am going to have to pay and get it ready while I am standing in the queue. Also, purchases tend to be rounded to multiples of 5 or 10 [yes, yes, multiples of 10 are multiples of 5] pence. In the U.S., the sales tax means that you usually don't know the cost until it's time to fork over the mulah. At this point, you don't want to seem like some old lady fishing about for change so you just fork over a wad of bills and let the cashier do the change thing.

I agree. The few times I can do this in the US (like buying coffee at work, which I know is 0.91, or 1.29 if you get the Starbucks) the transaction ends up taking a lot less time. The advantage to the US system, though, is you always know how much money the government is taking. The European system hides it more.

Re:Dollar coins

[buffer-overflowed]

Stop speaking freedom. The black helicopters are circling as we speak.

Re:Dollar coins

[Wirlw9nd]

The dollar bill will not be phased out any time soon. A distinction to be made: A dollar coin is "real" money, ie. currency. A dollar bill is not. A dollar bill is actually a very spiffy I.O.U. More to the point, Dollar coins are not made by the Federal Reserve (Fed, for short).

The Fed is a private company (consortium [sp?] might be a better term). They are a collection of privately held banks that have a contract with the Federal Government to make Federal Reserve Notes. By law, the Fed is not allowed to make currency.

The Fed gets paid by the piece. They get as much for making a $1 as they do for a $100. If the $1 was taken out of circulation, they would lose 74% of their revenue from printing Federal Reserve Notes. Even if they matched circulation via the $2, they still face a revenue drop of 32%.

Now _that's_ a lobby!

Re:Dollar coins

[IWannaBeAnAC]

My guess as to why Americans don't like change (as a foreigner who's visited a couple of times): you never know what the correct price is going to be until you get to the checkout. Like, your standing in the queue at macdonalds for 10 minutes, figure out what you want, see that that price listed on the menu is, say, $4.85 so you collect together the right change.

Then you go to pay for it and the cashier says "that will be $5.17 please!" D'OH!

Why oh why can't they just add the tax to the friggin price list????? Every other country on the planet does!

Re:Dollar coins

[IWannaBeAnAC]

Yeah the UK currency is a mess, it will be much better once they get rid of their toy currency and join the Euro.

The Australian coins are a bit of a mess too, but not as big. The only really bad anomaly is the $2 coin is much smaller than the $1. It was a mistake making the $1 coin so big (but understandable, since it was a big step introducing it). They were then stuck because it wasn't really possible to make a $2 coin that was even bigger than the $1 without it being too unwieldy.

I think the plan is, when they eventually get around to replacing the $5 note with a coin (probably many years away) they will redo the $1 and $2 coins at the same time. Perhaps with bi-coloured coins patterned after the 1 and 2 euro coins?

And, I have never seen a half-dollar. But I have only spent about 4 months in the USA (spread over several short trips).

IIRC, the USA 10c coin is much smaller than the 5c ? Or have I got that round the wrong way? I do like the quarters though. They stack very well. For whatever reason, I find 25c to be a nicer amount than 20. Before they got the Euro, the old Dutch currency had a 0.25 and 2.5 guiler coins, and a 25 guilder note (and I guess a 250 guilder note too? Never saw the notes above 100). Unusual, but nice. More consistent than the USA scheme where you can get a quarter of $1 but not a quarter of $10 or $100.

Re:Dollar coins

[IWannaBeAnAC]

It certainly isn't a dumb idea, because it works in many other countries without any problems.

The problem with them in the USA is cultural baggage (Italy, especially older Italians, have the same problem with the Euro coins). Americans are simply used to being able to carry a large stack of $1 notes around with them even though it is actually rather pointless doing so. How many quarters do you carry around with you? Why should the number of dollar coins you need to carry be any larger?

Re:Dollar coins

[Guppy06]

"The Sacagawea dollar coin went the way of the Susan B because they kept printing singles."

IMO, the problem isn't that the bills are still printed but that the banks don't normally hand them out. You can go to any bank and get all the dollar coins, half-dollars and $2 bills you like (assuming you give them correct change, of course), but you won't get them if you don't ask for them.

What is up with all the new money?

[EvlOvrLrd]

The treasury puts out all these new bills to try to foil counterfeiting, but leave the old bills in circulation for another 5 - 10 years.... OK, I cannot make a new $20 bill -for now- but those old style $100s can still be made.

Next we are going to see the govt try to limit the extent in which publishing technology can go.

Excuse me, but my printer says that it needs another ream of paper. Then off to the Porsche dealership.

It's still counterfeit...

[zogger]

... no matter how new it is, what color it is, or how much hot air backs it. It's nuts. At least if they are going to use bogus fiat currency, use the mint, don't make the bills part of some private for-profit bank that can charge "interest" on them and make everyone indebted to them on bogus pretenses, then carefully control the supply based on PRODUCED WEALTH as an aggregate, tangible total, not on some vague debt/credit schemes.

It's the mother of all government scams. I think IIRC this is the third time the US has used phony money, the previous two times failed eventually after ripping people off and letting the crooks skedaddle.

Representative Ron Pauls efforts, a good quick read

BTW, Alan Greenspan, BEFORE he became chairman of the private "federal" reserve bank mega conjob, was totally against phony fiat money. totally, and he articulated a lot of good reasons why. Funny how someone's values change once they get bribed off and put into a position of extreme power, isn't it?

Re:It's still counterfeit...

[kmellis]

I know I feel so much better when my currency is backed by gold. Because, you know, gold is so shiny. It's the shininess that gives it its intrinsic value.

Re:It's still counterfeit...

[Rude Turnip]

This came up in another thread a while back and someone said thatwhen it's all said and done, any sort of currency, whether it's strictly paper or backed by gold, is ultimately based upon the trust that it can be used tomorrow in exchange for goods and services.

There is nothing inherently special about gold...it's only valuable because people perceive it to be valuable. A long time ago some people agreed to use it as currency for goods and services. Same deal with paper money now.

Re:It's still counterfeit...

[Rude Turnip]

"Actually, what gives gold (and silver) their value is that they are rare, durable and difficult to counterfeit."

Now it is. But what happens when we're able to replicate it easily through nanotechnology or some other, undiscovered marvel of science? Paper currencies would be in trouble, too...and then we'd have to switch completely to electronic money - something much more ethereal than gold or paper money.

"A federal reserve note is worth about the paper it's printed on."

Care to trade your $100 for my $5 if they're both pieces of paper of the same size? Why not? Because a federal reserve note is worth what you can buy with it. Whether your money is paper or gold, it is all about perception and the trust that society accepts a currency as valid.

Re:It's still counterfeit...

[kmellis]

"There is nothing inherently special about gold...it's only valuable because people perceive it to be valuable. A long time ago some people agreed to use it as currency for goods and services. Same deal with paper money now."

Yes. Ultimately, that's completely true and the gold standard loonies fail to appreciate this. However, they're likely to say that gold is a tangible thing that has utility--whereas a floating currency is backed by nothing. The problem with this view is two-fold. First, gold has utility only because people think it has utility, and, anyway, its valuation has not very much to do with that actual practical utility. Mostly, it's valuable because it's pretty. But, secondly, a floating currency is backed by something--the word of the government that issues it. Just because that trust isn't tangible doesn't mean that it has no value. Of course it has value, and, in fact, its value fluctuates on the open market just like the value of gold does.

The gold standard loonies are not really worth arguing with. They don't understand simple economics.

Re:It's still counterfeit...

[kmellis]

"When a currency is backed by something that cannot be exponentially duplicated, it cannot be inflated."

That's just ignorant. Inflation is the reduced purchasing power of a given amount of currency. If you used gold bars as currency, you could still have inflation. The only supposed limit on inflation in your gold economy is the limit on the money supply (gold). But you could do the exact same thing with a floating currency: just don't print more money. Except that doesn't work. If the money supply wasn't increased when there were inflationary pressures, people would account for the inflation by utilizing a barter economy as necessary to take up the slack.

Inflation doesn't happen because governments print money. Inflation happens when aggregate demand exceeds supply. Period. The end. Learn some economics.

Re:It's still counterfeit...

[joss]

Nice rant, misses a fair bit of the point though.
The main problem is not paper money, whether backed by gold or not. The main problem is that most money is invented by private banks when people take out loans. We need a greater percentage of debt free money in circulation to avoid boom and bust.

Re:It's still counterfeit...

[zogger]

--I addressed those points somewhat more in detail in a reply/follow up down the thread. I think our posts crossed paths. I'm running in and writing then running outside and working, mucho glorious spring day here!

Re:It's still counterfeit...

[kmellis]

I wrote:

"Inflation is the reduced purchasing power of a given amount of currency."

...to which an AC responded:

"Wrong. Now THAT'S ignorant."

in.fla.tion: 2 An increase of money and credit relative to available goods resulting in a substantial and continuing rise in the general price level.

Where'd you find that definition? A general purpose dictionary? It is not a correct definition...except that I just noticed that you chose the secondary definition.

Inflation is nothing more and nothing less than a general increase in prices, which is exactly synonymous with my previous definition. It is not--I repeat not--exclusively defined in terms of a result of an increase in the money supply.

"If inflation were truly just demand exceeding supply, we'd have nice little cycles. One year, $1 would buy you a candy bar. The next year, the candy bar would be $1.17. The year after that, maybe $0.87. Then $0.92. Then $1.15. But you don't see that, do you, Einstein?"

No, because you're wrong. As long as demand exceeds supply, prices will increase. I have no idea why you assume a cycle unless you're assuming that demand will decrease as a result of inflation, which is correct. But then, inflation will cease because demand no longer exceeds supply, which is my point. However, why do you assume deflation?

"Inflation has been on a constant increase.

No it hasn't. You probably meant that "inflation has been constant"--but if you can't be bothered to avoid making such a elementary mistake, why should you expect to have any credibility at all?

"The loaf of bread is the same loaf of bread. The money has less purchasing power. Period."

And your point is...what?

"Why? Because the govenment and the fed play their loan/payback game (with interest), continually increasing the supply of "money" in the united states."

Ah. That's not necessarily why inflation is nearly continuous through the years. Again, inflation is demand exceeding supply. Lots of things can cause this. One is simply that people have the expectation that they will have higher earnings in the future and thus it's safe for them to spend today instead of to save. Another is increased availabity and utilization of credit (which is exactly the same thing as an increase in the money supply!). Something that doesn't necessarily require a central bank.

As you know, the mechanism with which a central bank influences the money supply is not merely printing more money, but rather loaning the money to banks who, in turn, loan it to indivudal borrowers. Thus, borrowers have money they otherwise wouldn't have had, and they spend it. Demand exceeds supply (assuming that they were in equilibrium beforehand). The monetarist formulation of this sort of inflation is just another version of the demand/supply relationship.

The idea that you can't have inflation in the absence of a central bank that indirectly increases the money supply is profoundly ignorant. It's not only ignorant of basic macroeconomics, it's ignorant of history.

"I'll give you some terms to look up and you can educate yourself: federal reserve, fiat, fraud, confidence, inflation, gold, backed, interest, credit, money. Knock yourself out."

A nice little list tilted toward a cranky, economically ignorant, American, naive, ideological, gold-standarist view.

Here's a couple of terms for you to look up:

Demand-Pull Inflation

Cost-Push Inflation

New Canadian bills

[Yosemite Sue]

One of the things that surprised me with the latest version of our Canadian bills was that braille is used! (Bank of Canada - currency - accessibility features)

I do wonder how well the braille stands up to the wear-and-tear such bills would go through during the normal lifetime of paper currency ...

YS.

More Info

[ka9dgx]

An even better chart, showing the relationship between the Euro and the Dollar over the past two years.

Look, we're even falling against the Canadian Dollar..

--Mike--

Re:More Info

[Misch]

Hmmm... It could bring back some Cross border Shopping...

What I've never understood...

[Pirogoeth]

...is why there is no recall on older bills? What's to stop me from ignoring the new bills and just forge a 10-year-old bill without the embedded strip, etc. and stamp '1993' on it?

Re:What I've never understood...

[MeerCat]

is why there is no recall on older bills?

The US $ has been the worlds leading "hard currency" for quite some time. A large proportion of the issued paper is not in the USA, but is in use overseas. If they recall the older bills, you'll get hit by a huge flood of people desperate to change their notes from all sorts of back-waters (you'll get this anyway even without the recall, but not as much).

This flood of cash movement is a great chance for fraud, and it can cause currency problems as some people may decide to cash in old US to local currency instead, and that would cause all sorts of problems as large amounts of paper money wash back.

When the $100 bill was changed a few years back, it triggered quite a stampede in several countries, as rumours started that the old bills would not be valid.

Anyone doubting how much cash is held overseas - the Columbian drug barons have so much dirty money in US bills that they're unable to clean - in both senses - that they shrink wrap it, stack it in pallets, and are supposed to be holding warehouses full of $5 and $20 bills. One of them reputedly threatened the US that if they didn't call off harrassing him, he'd fly a few pallets over the poorest US ghettos and drop tens of millions of dollars from the air, which would trigger some very nasty riots and major local economic,civic and social problems.

So, in short, I'd suggest a major answer in that the US is being a responsible provider of hard currency by not recalling old notes.

Re:What I've never understood...

[benzapp]

Anyone doubting how much cash is held overseas - the Columbian drug barons have so much dirty money in US bills that they're unable to clean - in both senses - that they shrink wrap it, stack it in pallets, and are supposed to be holding warehouses full of $5 and $20 bills. One of them reputedly threatened the US that if they didn't call off harrassing him, he'd fly a few pallets over the poorest US ghettos and drop tens of millions of dollars from the air, which would trigger some very nasty riots and major local economic,civic and social problems.

If you have any links regarding this, I would be most interested. That is one of the coolest stories I have ever heard.

Re:What I've never understood...

[MeerCat]

If you have any links regarding this, I would be most interested. That is one of the coolest stories I have ever heard.

Sorry, but it was an anecdote told to me back when I used to work in investigative analysis, fraud investigation and money laundering software - it was from one of the US customers who prefer not to be identified. You hear some great stories working in large scale fraud investigation, but most of them can't be attributed - sorry.

Some of the reporting on fraud and money laundering in general might include similar themes.

I'm voting for

[multiplexo]

the "young Elvis" twenty dollar bill.

New bills, interesting look

[rzbx]

First thing I thought when I saw the new bill was that it looked like a European currency bill. Anyone else see the resemblence?

Re:New bills, interesting look

[Megane]

Looks more like a government check to me.

Back in the '80s they used to be printed on Hollerith cards, then they eventually changed to something resembling the current twenty, probably with at least one other variation in between. For a while after that, informational inserts with government checks were still printed on unpunched Hollerith card stock.

How about some _techie_ proposals?

[dpbsmith]

They have to print a unique serial number on each one, anyway... well, why not a barcoded serial number? You've seen the "Where's George" website... well, as part of Total Information Awareness, why not equip every cash register with a scanner that relays the serial number to a central database, and as soon as the same serial number is seen in two places at the same time, zap!

Yeah, yeah, yeah... not very good... how about get some _creative_ suggestions for ingenious, wonderful, complicated technical fixes?

Re:How about some _techie_ proposals?

[Ioldanach]

You've seen the "Where's George" website... well, as part of Total Information Awareness, why not equip every cash register with a scanner that relays the serial number to a central database, and as soon as the same serial number is seen in two places at the same time, zap!

Anonymity. The people with the tinfoil hats already tend to think the plastic strip with the #'s printed on it (20 20 20 for a $20 for example) includes a magnetic id that tracks who spends what, where. If your suggestion came to pass, the anonymity of purchases made with cash would be just as transparent to law enforcement as credit cards.

While I may never have purchased anything illegal, it still remains that I don't want the government tracking my every purchase. Allowing money tracking (which I do think the currency changes over the next 50 years will work towards) is a slippery slope. Sure, you can claim its ok because its being used to thwart counterfitters, but with all that nice juicy data in the computer they can find all the people who bought pot from some dealer they caught. And then someone decides to extend the 2050 Patriot Act to allow the feds to track down the people who bought certain books without having to ask the bookseller or librarian (like the current Patriot Act allows them to do).

I like my anonymity, thin as that veil is. Please don't give the government an excuse to take it away.

Re:How about some _techie_ proposals?

[spitzak]

Print a public-key encryption of the serial number as a barcode (or magnetic stripe) on the bill. This will force counterfeiters to copy the numbers off existing bills. Then do something to locate duplicates... Of course as another response her says, this probably would mean a database that would also track everybody's cash, which may be bad.

Re:It will still be worth less than the euro....

[AlgUSF]

Hmmmm, Troll?

Yeah, nothing like those worthless euros.

Most common counterfeit detection will remain...

[aksansai]

Most banks and stores that detect counterfeit bills do so using a special marker that leaves a particular mark/color on a true bill and nothing/or another special mark on fake. It's the reaction with the cloth-based real bill.

Since most stores use this method (banks will already know better), it will remain true for the new $20 (just as it has for the 1997 $20 and the legacy $20s.)

Even still detection mechanisms simply are in place to keep honest people honest. They are a deterrent. Successful counterfeiters can always find a mom and pop shop to accept their close-to-the-real thing design.

Counterfeiting and Terrorism

[NewbieV]

A little Googling turned up this article in December's Business 2.0 about counterfeiting and terrorism... interesting for the background into several counterfeiting technologies.

Now if they'd only take Jackson off the twenty...

[zipwow]

If they'd just take Jackson off the twenty, I'd be happy.

If you're not aware, this is the guy that was responsible for deporting many of the native americans to Oklahoma. You might recall that the Cherokee were pretty well "integrated" into society at the time, and they did what any other wronged group would do: they sued in court.

And won. The Supreme Court ruled that "the laws of the state of Georgia 'can have no force' within Cherokee boundaries."

This fine president, who we honor by putting his name on our money, said "John Marshall has made his decision, now let him enforce it!"

What a fine example of our American politics.

-Zipwow

Seems counterproductive

[A nonymous Coward]

The more features you put in a bill, the fancier they get, and that seems to me like more work to detect a counterfeit. How many stores actually have the time to spend even 15 seconds checking every $20 bill? Buy something for $41, pass 3 twenties, get $19 back ... is the clerk really going to spend 45 seconds checking those bills? No way can they do that every time, all day, all year, and be any good at it.

Plus, changing them all the time, now there are several different kinds in circulation, more things to remember to look for.

I'd like to see a good study done of different bills and how much they are counterfeited. You'd have to make allowances for how desirable the different currrencies are. I am not convinced that all these doodads really do any good.

Re:Seems counterproductive

[karnal]

Better yet, buy something for $41, and pass 2 real and one counterfeit. Try to hide it better amongst the "noise" of the good bills.

One time we used an HP Officejet scanner/printer/inkjet printer to copy the face of a few $1 bills, just to see if people would pick them up. Well, it turns out that someone used one in the cafeteria, and they took it. Amongst all of the days sales, they didn't even notice the paper was wrong, or that there was nothing on the back.

We were pretty tight with them, so we heard about it and gave them a dollar. But we vowed not to do that again, even as a joke.

Re:Seems counterproductive

[Zillatron]

The more features you put in a bill, the fancier they get, and that seems to me like more work to detect a counterfeit. How many stores actually have the time to spend even 15 seconds checking every $20 bill?

Actually the more features the bill has the more options the cashier has of ways to verify. The counterfeitter can't know which two things the people who work with me will take the time to check: chemical test (the pen), read the mylar strip, check for embedded red and blue fibers, look at the watermark, color shift the lower-right corner, put the strip under ultraviolet*, microprint check, etc. We don't have to use them all, but if different shops spend two seconds to check different things, the counterfeiters will have to take the time, and more importantly the expense, to make many of these things pass. The more hoops one has to jump through to make some money, the less likely it will seem like a profitable venture, and the fewer people will bother. O.K. just a smaller number of rational people, but you get the point.

I've spent almost a decade in retail one way or the other (mostly the other) and have personally stopped people from passing 4 counterfeits (offtopic side note - travellers cheques as often as cash - not being U.S. currency the potential penalty is far lower, IIRC only a class-two felony)

* The strip embedded in the "new" $20, $50, and $100 bills glow different colors and are in different positions on each bill. Sorry I can't find a pic online, but this looks frickin' cool when you first see it in person.

Plastic Money

[awol]

Australia has been using plastic notes for years. These notes are much harder to forge they have a transparent section and a translucent dual sided motiff incorporated into the design to aid forgery identifcation. And that is just for starters, other benefits include that the notes last many times longer (and hence despite the higher cost to produce they save the treasury loads), they go through the wash just fine (and you can even have them in your board shorts whilst surfing without fear of being unable to buy a pie for lunch). They don't really tear (they do but its much harder to get started on the rip) and are generally much more durable. They look kinda weird even for Australian currency, and the one drawback is that IIRC they are a bit more difficult to handle if you are manipulating lots of cash manually.

Re:Plastic Money

[rherbert]

Except if you're a tourist, you should be warned not to try to iron Australian money to make it nice and flat for a picture.

Oops.

Re:Plastic Money

[brer_rabbit]

they go through the wash just fine (and you can even have them in your board shorts whilst surfing without fear of being unable to buy a pie for lunch)

Isn't that money laundering?

Re:Plastic Money

[Anonymous Coward]

Even better - plastic money with those new little radio tags!! Then Big Brother can keep track of every single bill in circulation! Bust counter-fitters (and plumbers, who also take money in cash to avoid taxes; also bad news for counterfitters, btw); clean up the undergound economy, smash the drug trade and the rest of cash-based organized crime, put the kibosh on tax evaders of all stripes; plus oodles of jobs for the coders who have to write the software to make the whole thing run... C'mon, guys - is this brilliant or what?

Re:Plastic Money

[Now15]

You'll no doubt be amused to know that New Zealand 20c coins pop up occasionally in Australia, and are generally considered acceptable tender.

In fact, I've got one in my wallet at the moment.

Australia's very colourful and very durable plastic notes might look like monopoly money to an American, but seriously, it's just a case of fashion and culture.

I think our notes are some of the best currency designs I've ever seen, with the possible exception of the Euro. The transparent panels make it easy to do a reliable forgery check in a fraction of a second.

I also like how the strong colours make sorting cash in your wallet extremely easy to do, and you never hear anyone ask "did you give me a 10 or a 20?"

Cheers
Simon

Re:Plastic Money

[jpatters]

Similar situation with Canadian quarters here in Vermont, and in other northern parts of the US. Rather anoying, actually, since most vending machines reject them.

Re:Plastic Money

[IWannaBeAnAC]

The good thing is, NZ twenties are close enough that Australian vending machines usually do accept them.

It is not unusual to get passed the occasional NZ twenty, I've never had a problem with shops (or even banks) refusing to accept them.

I wonder, are there more NZ twenties in circulation in Australia, or Australian twenties in circulation in NZ?

Re:Plastic Money

[Narcissus]

You almost had me as an Aussie, until you mentioned keeping the money in your boardies while you're surfing.

Mate, everyone knows that you keep your money and car keys in your shoes or under your towel while you're at the beach, or at least bury it if you're paranoid...

Re:Plastic Money

[hayden]

Same here in New Zealand (in fact I would not be surprised to find that we may have had the plastic money first ).

For once, no. Your money (along with Singapore and a bunch of other countries) is actually printed in Australia.

Re:Plastic Money

[awol]

Mate, everyone knows that you keep your money and car keys in your shoes or under your towel while you're at the beach, or at least bury it if you're paranoid...

I guess I have been travelling alone for too long, you learn to be very careful about contingency planning, or I must be uber paranoid since I tie my car key to the drawstring on my speedos (no special techie key for me) and keep my folding currency in my pocket and body bash to my hearts content without even worrying about those that would nick my stuff (I even keep a spare shirt and towel in the car).

Webcast

[rgf71]

Here's the webcast of it. It's about a half hour long, and in WM format.

Re:Webcast

[blibbleblobble]

"Here's the webcast [moneyfactory.com] of it. It's about a half hour long, and in WM format."

WindowMaker has a video player?

Re:Plastic Bank Notes

[aksansai]

I imagine they don't fold up very well for a good fit in my wallet. I mean, sheesh - I already have enough problem with all my credit card receipts and the one-dollar bills biting into my ass when I sit for long periods of time!

The blind just need this gadget

[ricklow]

Some folks I know of here in Ottawa have a nice little device for blind people to read paper money.

Re:MOD THIS DOWN PLEASE.

[llamalicious]

Not to feed a troll, but...

The kind who found the parent comment amusing/funny. Had I any moderator points, I too would have modded that up. Your disagreement with the comment doesn't automatically mean everyone else needs share you point of view. So, get a user account, some mod points, and use them... otherwise, stop bitching from behind the relative safety of an AC posting.

And then go crawl back under your bridge. /soapbox

But why?

[homebru]

What problem is solved by adding another new design?

The two previous designs are still legally in circulation. Since they were / are apparently counterfeitable (is there such a word?), adding a new design does nothing to make the older designs un-counterfeitable.

Unless the older designs of currency are de-monetized, new designs do not solve a problem. (Older readers with military service may remember the MPC[1] script coversion days[2].) Yes, eventually almost all paper money will wind up being captured by banks and turned in for destruction. But it takes years to remove most of a type of bill and the remaining copies are still legal money. So the older patterns are still vulnerable.

[1] MPC - Military Payment Certificates. See google or eBay.
[2] Script conversion days - A twenty-four hour period during which all personnel were required to exchange their MPCs for the same value in a new series (new colors, new pictures). At the end of the conversion period, old series script was worthless and had value only as a colorful curiosity. Failure to exchange meant that you lost. No excuses, no make-ups, see the chaplain.

huh?

[oyenstikker]

Why is John Lithgow on the $20 bill?

What about the older bills?

[Xaroth]

My thought is this, and I'm surprised it hasn't floated its way to the top of the modded posts already:

Of what use is a new anti-counterfit bill if they don't recall the old, easily counterfitted ones? Counterfitters won't even try to adjust to the new bills if the old ones are still in circulation and legal tender - there's just no reason to.

Re:What about the older bills?

[Ghengis]

The older bills will be phased-out, eventually. Banks will start collecting them, sending them back to the Federal Reserve, and getting new bills in return, effectivly phasing-out the old bills. It's easier than forcing everyone down to the banks to trade-in their old money.

Re:What about the older bills?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sweet Merriam-Webster! It's COUNTERFEITERS. They're not trying on counters as articles of clothing!

Re:What about the older bills?

[mark-t]

Within about a year or two after the mint stops printing them, almost all of the old bills will be gone even if there never is an official recall. The reason this would be is because of all the handling that bills undergo, they end up getting taken out of circulation by banks anyways once they've been practically mutilated.

Official recalls are faster, of course... But the general public does not need to be involved. All that happens is the nation directs the banks to turn over all old bills as they come in to exchange them for new ones, and instructs them not to release any of the old bills, and within what seems like only a few weeks the older version of the currency is next to impossible to find in circulation.

I've seen both systems employed at different times for different reasons. It's also worth pointing out that, at least in Canada (I'm not sure about the US), any place that accepts cash can always refuse to accept money that they suspect might be counterfitted (although they cannot keep it as such if they have no proof). All nationally recognized banks, however, will continue to accept all old currency, regardless of age (and have facilities on the premises to identify forgeries faster than you could say "can you give me change for a twenty?") My wife, who has a job as a cashier at a grocery store, actually did this not that long ago when a woman came to her with an old $20. My wife apologized to the woman for not being able to accept it because the bill was too old, but she also added that there was a bank half a block down the road that would be able to change it for her if she needed it. My wife said that the woman seemed mildly suprised, but just reached into her purse and gave her a newer bill without argument.

Re:What about the older bills?

[Chester K]

Of what use is a new anti-counterfit bill if they don't recall the old, easily counterfitted ones? Counterfitters won't even try to adjust to the new bills if the old ones are still in circulation and legal tender - there's just no reason to.

Sure there is. When's the last time you saw an old $20 in general circulation? They may still be legal tender, but they're rapidly becoming rare... so much so that you notice them when you see them nowadays.

As a counterfeiter trying to pass your bills off on others, added scrutiny is something you want to avoid.

Re:What about the older bills?

[kasperd]

Counterfitters won't even try to adjust to the new bills if the old ones are still in circulation and legal tender - there's just no reason to.

I have always been wondering why they don't counterfeit the new ones which people are not so familiar with. Being unfamiliar with it, you should have a harder time realizing it was fake.

Re:From ? to � (not!)

[Wyatt Earp]

I bet when NAFTA finally goes to a single currency they'll be smart and avoid the Amerio name.

US $2 Bill Fact Sheet/Pictures

[burgburgburg]

Treasury Department $2 bill fact sheet

Pictures

The President on the $2 bill is Thomas Jefferson.

lack of desire

[irving47]

Why? Because you lack desire to have the Secret Service busting your door down?

Now its time to get rid of the penny

[tetranz]

And have a widely accepted $1 coin so we can get rid of the $1 bill.

The US might then be on the way to having a modern currency.

Re:not tempting to me

[CausticWindow]

I agree with you. It's simply too easy.

Even criminals might want to take the less obvious path.

Deception Dollars!

[funwithstuff]

Does that mean they'll be producing a new Deception Dollar?

http://www.deceptiondollar.com/

Seriously, though, the US could do worse than differentiate its different bills more clearly. Almost every other country makes it clearer (different sizes, very different colours) which can make it tricky for tourists. Australian notes (plastic, bright colours) are great, purely because they go through the wash and come out the other side. But I don't have to count large piles of the slippery things...

Re:Deception Dollars!

[GlassHeart]

the US could do worse than differentiate its different bills more clearly.

We're talking about a country where the 10 cent coin is smaller in size than the 5 cent coin. Don't hold your breath. :)

Re:Deception Dollars!

[Richy_T]

Well, hey, in the U.K., the 2p coin is bigger than the 5p and the 20p I think the 10p is bigger than to 20p too (it's been a while)

I do miss the old 50p though. That was some serious coinage.

Rich

Re:Deception Dollars!

[Segador]

Not to say that the vaules are SPELLED, not clearly printed in NUMBERS.

There's nothing appealing about Denise Richarards

[cryptochrome]

Those vapid, empty eyes, the mouth hanging open 90% of the time... for sure SHE would never notice if money was counterfeit or not.

It's a "Simpson's" reference

[blach]

Dude,

"Are they Brazilian looking?" is a reference to the great Simpson's episode where homer is kidnapped by Brazilians, and when they get the ransom money, they look at the greenbacks, and note that they sure look like serious financial documents, and then remark something like "Hey, our money is pink and purple" "Yeah, our money sure does look gay"

So there you have it =)

James

Finally

[pmz]

US$20 XP.

Paper Money

[uberdave]

A friend of mine recently came back from a trip to New Zealand. Their currency is made of a plastic film instead of paper. It cannot be torn. It has areas that are transparent. I don't recall any texture features, but it probably had them. The main point was that the material was easy to recognize, and very difficult to fake.

Actually, it was a 200$ bill, not a 3$ bill

[Unknown Poltroon]

http://www.thelouisvillechannel.com/lou/news/stori es/news-20010130-161443.html

Re:Actually, it was a 200$ bill, not a 3$ bill

[Black Copter Control]

Remember the story of the person who passed a $3.00 bill with Bill Clinton's face on it? All they could charge him with was failure to pay, since he hadn't really counter fitted any money.
No, because you made that up. The George Bush $200 (from an earlier post) is the most recent form of the scam. I can't say for sure that the Clinton $3 bill wasn't a hoax, but it definitely got enough airtime for me to hear about it (up in Canada).

agreed

[shdragon]

You don't work for Bank of America do you? I remember hearing that same story when I first started there. I remember looking at the book of funny money and laughing soo hard at some of the crap that got passed off as legit.

My favorite counterfit was the one that had 2 different denominations depending on which side of the bill you were looking at.. $100 front, $20 back. hahahaha...

Re:When can we break from paper currency?

[smack_attack]

Gold?

www.moneyfactory.com hosting service

[jea6]

We run the web infrastructure for the Bureau of Engraving and Printing on our DataHost platform. Starting about 2 hours ago (when the unveiling press conference ended) we've been sustaining over 20Mbits per second of traffic. As I look at the monitor now, we're doing 33Mbits/sec. Most of the traffic has been US-based, though we expect an overnight surge as Asia wakes up. Gotta go back and look at histograms now - Bolivia just took a keen interest in the new $20 note. Don't forget to stop by the BEP store (http://www.moneyfactory.com/store) and pick-up some neat collectibles (though, nothing with the new twenty until later this year). All the info on the new twenty is at http://www.moneyfactory.com/newmoney.

arrrragagarglargagahag!

[Thud457]

Was it really that hard to educate yourself?!! GOOGLE IS YOUR FRIEND!

It's the $22 bills that are "fake"!

Re:arrrragagarglargagahag!

[Anonymous Coward]

A nice story about a man's misadventures trying to pass a $2 bill

Re:arrrragagarglargagahag!

[SomeoneGotMyNick]

Same goes for SBA dollars.

I was lucky enough to have several people my age and older waiting in line behind me at the convenience store confirming the fact that the SBA is still LEGAL TENDER

The clerk was in her late teens or something. Born after the SBA had stopped being minted.

BEst place to dispose of counterfeit money?

[Unknown Poltroon]

Collection plate a church. THanks George Carlin.

The most ridiculous thing I've read...

[WIAKywbfatw]

This will be a boon for counter fitters.

Firstly, I think you mean counterfeiters, not counter fitters - counterfeiters forge money, passports, designer clothes, etc but counter fitters fit counters. OK?

Secondly, issuing a new design of bank note clearly cuts down on counterfeiting and opportunities to commit monetary fraud in several ways:

1. The new design is different from the old one.

Thus, any plates, etc a counterfeiter has for the old note are useless once the old note has been removed from general circulation. This also applies to all the counterfeit notes out there too.

2. A new design takes time to counterfeit.

Granted, today's hardware and software has speeded up the traditional counterfeiting process (Photoshop, Illustrator and QuarkXPress coupled with the best printers will work wonders), but the fact remains that being able to successfully reproduce a bank note's aesthetic appearance is still time consuming and expensive. Obviously, if you're good at it, money's no object because you'll be able to print your own...

3. New designs incorporate tougher security measures.

Watermarks, magnetic strips, even holograms can be used to make notes harder to forge. These features cost treasuries money to incorporate but they cost counterfeiters even more (per bill) to duplicate. Most will mimic some features but not all, making detection possible to anyone who's vigilant enough to care.

4. New note designs promote consumer vigilance.

Seeing something different reminds consumers that bank notes can be forged and subconsciously encourages them to be more alert to the possibility of receiving counterfeit notes. Ever checked your speed after seeing a police car? It's the same thing.

5. New bank notes are successfully introduced and old ones replaced every day.

Just about every country on the planet retires old designs in favour of new, more secure ones on a regular basis. The people in those countries don't have any problems with new bills leading to more rather than less fraud, so why would the opposite be true in the US?

I live in the UK and all of our notes (£5, £10, £20, £50) have undergone at least one redesign each in the last twenty years and there's never been one occasion where a new note has led to more fraud. The same can pretty much be said of the rollout of the Euro notes throughout most of the EU, which was the single biggest rollout of paper money ever.

Again, unless you're suggesting that the average American is too dumb to take care of their own money, why would there be a problem?

Re:The most ridiculous thing I've read...

[doublem]

My point is, with frequent currency redesigns, criminals would be able to make up their own version of the "new" bill and circulate it. They wouldn't have to make it a very accurate reproduction, just something that looks like it COULD be something similar to the bill. Read "the Art of the Steal" for examples of all the half assed funny money that people accept. Another post in this thread has info on a $200 bill one woman passed.

Money redesigns are necessary every now and then, but every 7 to 10 years is too often. Unless you educate people on all the new currency in circulation, they'll end up accepting bad counterfeits thinking it's the new money.

Here's an example of what could happen how. Make a bill that looks like the one on TV just as the new bills are going into circulation. Put out enough in an area, and there will be people rejecting the REAL bill and accepting the new one.

However, if there is enough education, it'll be harder to do.

It's not the redesign I'm against it's the proposed frequency that I think will cause trouble.

Re:The most ridiculous thing I've read...

[hackstraw]

1. The new design is different from the old one.

Doesn't matter, the old design is still (il)legal tender.

2. A new design takes time to counterfeit.

Exactly, so they'll keep using the old ones (see #1). However, their are the "king of the mountain" counterfeiters that are just in it for the accomplishment of gettting away with a phony bill, but they also do not typically do large runs of their bills.

3. New designs incorporate tougher security measures.

See #2 and #1.

4. New note designs promote consumer vigilance.

I guess, but if I have only explicitly checked my money for fun to see the different things added to the new bills. I don't really care if I have a phony bill, if it was good enough to be given to me, its good enough to spend.

5. New bank notes are successfully introduced and old ones replaced every day.

No, the old ones are not replaced, they are still valid money, and every 20years is hardly every day. Plus the note in question has been replaced in 1996 so the new one would be 7 years.

Re:The most ridiculous thing I've read...

[edbarrett]

The old bills haven't been removed from circulation. Not to knock you, but until the old bills are removed, the new ones don't do a damn thing to stop counterfeiting.

Re:The most ridiculous thing I've read...

[jmv]

While the old bills are still legal, they become very rare after about 1 year. This means that it makes "old counterfits" more suspicious because: 1) people will watch out for old bills and 2) a sudden increase in the amount of old bills will raise suspicion.

Re:The most ridiculous thing I've read...

[Azghoul]

The new ones do get removed. Ever notice that when you get money from an ATM, it's all shiny and smooth? Banks replace notes all the time.

Try to find ancient $20s now. It's possible, but they're not exactly commonplace.

Re:The most ridiculous thing I've read...

[JPelorat]

Especially crisp new 'old' bills.

Re:The most ridiculous thing I've read...

[Remlik]

"1. The new design is different from the old one. Thus, any plates, etc a counterfeiter has for the old note are useless once the old note has been removed from general circulation."

Flaw in your logic: The new 5s,10s,20s and so on came out when? 99? 2000? I Still have old style bills (even old style 100s) in my wallet every week. So for at least 3 years the new bills have done nothing to stop counterfeiting...all they have done is givin the criminals 3 years to perfect printing the new bills.

Re:The most ridiculous thing I've read...

[jdreed1024]

Thus, any plates, etc a counterfeiter has for the old note are useless once the old note has been removed from general circulation. This also applies to all the counterfeit notes out there too.

And this happens how often? Prior to 1996, the notes had not changed significantly for many years, and still remained legal tender, whether or not they were in active circulation. Heck, I've even seen silver certificates in circulation. When they get to the bank, of course, they remove them, but well, by that time the damage is done.

Re:The most ridiculous thing I've read...

[Guppy06]

"No, the old ones are not replaced, they are still valid money,"

If the old $20 is actually used, it ends up back in a bank somewhere, and banks routinely send old bills back to the Federal Reserve to destroy, who then replaces them with new bills. This is why you probably haven't seen an old $20 in years outside of a collection.

They actually encourage you to print it!!

[morcheeba]

On this page, the mint encourages you to "View, download or print glossy images of the new notes" from this pdf!

Re:They actually encourage you to print it!!

[cpt kangarooski]

Sure, why not? The Mint makes coins -- if you can successfully pass off a printed copy of a quarter or half-dollar, then I say you deserve to get away with it.

Paper money is made by the Bureau of Engraving and Printing.

Re:They actually encourage you to print it!!

[morcheeba]

little known fact: the Bureau of Engraving and Printing tastes like.... ah, screw it - I won't even try to justify my mistake. Thanks for the correction.

Re:It will still be worth less than the euro....

[thelexx]

Not entirely a troll. The Euro is stronger than the dollar right now, with the dollar having lost ~25% of it's value relative to it over the last several months, and in fact days (check the dollar index chart). The only reason this hasn't bitten the Average Joe in the US square in the ass and HARD is that China has their exchange rate fixed at 8 renminbi to 1 dollar. With our most massive trading partner at a safely fixed rate the current administration is OK with a weakening of the dollar vs the euro for a couple of reasons, the (much) lesser of which is as a boon to US manufacturers (all three or so of them that are still left). The big reason is as a slap at the EU as now all European goods will cost much more in the US, which tend to be the more 'up-market' goods (German cars, French wine, Danish furniture, etc). When the price of an already expensive item is suddenly 25% higher, it has an effect. That'll teach them to go against the wishes of the US, as in the case of Iraq. Also take note of the fact that the major dollar fall of the last week or so coincides nicely with the acquisition of a big fat huge pool of oil.

It's a big mean game being played out there with our money. The new bills are but a sideshow.

Moo

[Chacham]

Little off the norm for Slashdot

Actually, it comes up every once in a while.

Iranians have the US press!

[rxed]

I've seen on PBS that US Treasury in the 1970ties has sold Money press machine to Iran to prin new Iranian notes. Iran than figured out that it was more profitable for them to print dollars than...whataever they used in Iran in 1970.

ooooh, more color

[calethix]

Now we get pretty money like other countries. :)

Re:ooooh, more color

[Darth RadaR]

Now we get pretty money like other countries. :)

Now if they could make the denomiations in different sizes too so it can be easier to tell the difference between them in dark clubs and such.

Re:ooooh, more color

[calethix]

"Now if they could make the denomiations in different sizes too so it can be easier to tell the difference between them in dark clubs and such."

black-light sensetive like those little hand stamps? :)

Re:ooooh, more color

[tuxedobob]

Actually, the new (current) bills are black-light sensitive. The strip that runs through the 5, 10, and 20 glows blue, orange, and yellow, respectively. I don't have 50s or 100s lying around, but I bet they glow different colors, as well.

pics of money around the globe

[witts]

Found a great website for pics of paper currency from around the world. My personal fave has to be Netherlands 50 Guilder note, sunflower and bee. Makes U.S. paper money look downright ugly... http://aes.iupui.edu/rwise/notedir/mappage.html

Re:When can we break from paper currency?

[mike_mgo]

There are lots of time when cash is more convenient (not to mention paranoids who don't like to leave a paper trail of their purchases). When I'm at a club I where I might get a drink from 4 different bartenders during the course of the night I don't want to have to dig out a card and sign a receipt or punch in a pin number every time.

Why should they care?

[Joe the Lesser]

A cashier makes, say 6$ an hour to stand around and cash people out all day, not to mention deal with asshole customers.

When I was working as a cashier, if someone told me to look hard for counterfeits, I'd reply with the finger.

So their boss/company loses some money if the bank doesn't accept a counterfeit that they didn't see. Ces't la vie.

Re:Why should they care?

[Grishnakh]

In this economy, new cashiers should be pretty easy to find. If a cashier accepts too many counterfeits, fire his ass and get another.

REally? Ever made a typo?

[Unknown Poltroon]

Obviously not. You would never make an error in the course of your day to day job, because you sir, are perfect. By the way, i believe the A in Java is lower case.

Re:Credibility

[Wyatt Earp]

Actually, I think the reason the Euro is up in value is because there is a push right now to get the UK into the Euro.

As for the Pax Americana allegation, it's FUD.

Following the Second World War the United States occupied western Germany, Southern Korea, Japan, most of the tiny Pacific Islands, and had troops based from Morocco to Libya to Turkey to Korea to Vietnam to Germany to Norway to Scotland to Greenland to Canada to Taiwan and the dollar survived.

Now if the EU had an economy near as strong as the US I'd be worried. But they don't.

EU GDP 8.6 trillion - 380 million people
US GDP 10.6 trillion - 275 million people

Look at the age of the working population and demographics, the EU just isn't going to be able to remain a powerhouse like the United States will be able to.

If current trends continue, the median age in Europe in 2050 will be 53, compared to 36 in the US; currently, median ages are 38 and 36.

Remeber the 80s. Japan was strong, part of Tokyo worth more than California, America to be crushed beneath the Rising Sun.

"Japan's economy continues to be hit by a vicious circle of lower wages and weaker spending, according to government figures.

The average monthly wage fell 2.1% in March from a year earlier, the steepest drop in 11 years, the government said on Wednesday. "

Also remeber that the EU spend next to nothing on defense, but now Germany and France want to go thier own way. Well France and Germany can't build engines for transport aircraft, the EU has limited stealth technology. The EU is dependant on DSP from the US and Japan.

So if the EU really wants to go thier own way in reguards to defense, it will take serious infrastructure outlays in a system that is already about to break from social security spending and an aging workforce.

I got it!

[Acts of Attrition]

1. Draw money on computer 2. Print money 3. PROFIT!!! wait a minute, that was too easy...

Re:Obviously a hoax

[NighthawkFoo]

Don't forget about the $100,000 bill.

It was never in public circulation. The department of the Treasury used it internally for transferring funds.

In the UK there are several different notes

[Moderation abuser]

Different banks in the UK are allowed to produce their own notes. It's especially noticable in Scotland where there are 3 banks allowed to print their own notes and, yes, you can still get a 1 pound note.

Example:
http://www.thebanknotestore.com/britis h.htm

As a Scot, sometimes this is a pain, the further south you travel the more difficult it becomes to spend Scottish notes. They are strictly speaking, not even legal tender, they are simply accepted on the basis that the banks issuing them are trusted.

http://www.scotbanks.org.uk/notes.htm

On the whole, people pick up new notes fairly quickly.

Re:It will still be worth less than the euro....

[dracocat]

Perhaps looking at interest rates for euro vs. dollars may shed some light on this mystery for you.

Interesting idea

[Eudial]

What if you were to print the value of [value-of-the-bill]>Government_GPG_key>bill on the bills instead..... ... ... ......... on the otherhand. that's pretty easy to forge. damn.

You cant do this.

[Unknown Poltroon]

Youre going to tell me that my 20 year old dollar bill, issued with the full faith and trust of the governemnt, is no longer good? Gee, what a quick and dirty way for the government ot make money. "WEre sorry sir, despite the fact that we promised it would be good forever, you missed yesterdays cutoff date for trading your bills. Theyre wastepaper. Thank you for paying off part of the debt" Yeah. Like this wouldnt shatter the economy, as i and most other people switch to gold and euros as my currency of choice.

Re:You cant do this.

[Ghengis]

It's good, and eventually after you spend it, it will go t a bank, which will send it to the Federal Reserve in return for a new bill, and no-one will ever see your 20 year old dollar bill again...

Re:You cant do this.

[sully67]

Probably not quite the intention, probably more something along the lines of:
Withdrawal of old 10 pound note design by the Bank of England

The note is still good, you just don't have the right to expect shops and retailers to accept it.
To get your money back you have to send it to the issuing authority instead.

Re:You cant do this.

[UnknownQ]

as i and most other people switch to gold

This would probably actually fix the problem since it's really hard to counterfeit gold.

Re:You cant do this.

[homebru]

Exactly the point. Or rather, the attitude.

So many taxpayers would be pissed that it would be a major political blunder to de-monitize a bill or series of bill. So the old bills remain legal and the old-style bill patterns remain vulnerable to copyists.

So, again, how does introducing a new pattern reduce the vulnerability of the old patterns?

Re:You cant do this.

[NeoChichiri]

Actually...in that case you'd be able to make more money off of it if you save it for awhile. After awhile you'll be able to sell it as a "collector's item" hehehe

Should paper money die?

[re-geeked]

So, to give you all something to bicker about, I wonder if this means we should go to coins only, and start minting $100, $50, $20, $10, and $5 coins.

Pros:

they can't be counterfeited (or at least it's much harder, correct?)
machine sorting is easier
last longer
that cool jingle in your pocket
will accelerate use of debit cards

Cons:

Form factor - need a coin purse, not a wallet (correctible? credit-card shaped & sized coins?)
Heavier
More expensive to produce (but really, how bad can it be if pennies are coins and $100 bills are paper?)
How big would a $100 coin be anyway?
Will accelerate use of credit cards

Thoughts?

Re:Should paper money die?

[rnelsonee]

I just hate coins. I throw all my pennies away and give away my non-quarters. My reasoning is I'd gladly pay someone the 20 cents or whatever if I wasn't forced to carry a bunch of noisy metal discs around in my pockets. I think it's cool you can carry around $500 and have it weigh less than an ounce. Paper is easy to manage (fold, slip into your pocket or socks), and is just so light you never notice it's on you.

Re:Should paper money die?

[UTPinky]

Con:
Spend it too quickly... well at least at first. When I was in Europe a few monthes back, me and my friends all agreed that we were just tossing around these 2 Euro coins left and right, and yet, they were worth about $2.50. So, OK, $2.50 isnt that much... but what happens when you have a $10 coin. Right now Americans are used to having coins be "chump change" and not worth anything, it just doesnt seem to have that "high worth". We're taught that all of the real money is in big bills. I can definately see an all coin system to take quite some getting used to.

Just my 2c

Re:Should paper money die?

[Telastyn]

Cons:

It's hard to put coins in a stripper's thong.

Re:Credibility

[yy1]

The only question, are GWB and John Ashcroft Caeser and Brutus? And which is which?

"Forgued" Notes

[Anonymous Coward]

Dennis Forgue, an anti-counterfeiting expert
Has anyone else noticed that this anti-counterfeiting expert's name rearranged spells "u forge"?

Re:"Forgued" Notes

[Repugnant_Shit]

And if that's not bad enough, it also spells orgefu, which is a rare type of Mexican horse-eating carp.

If dollar bills were like computer software..

[jetmarc]

..then you could download the new (cracked) design files 2 weeks before they release the "original".

Re:If dollar bills were like computer software..

[blibbleblobble]

"If dollar bills were like computer software..."

Please type the 30-digit registration number which came on the disposable plastic wrapper of these dollars... Do you accept the license agreement?

Size variation is good (for the consumer)

[WIAKywbfatw]

Don't forget that in Britain (and many other countries) bills of different values have differnt physical sizes.

This statement can't be underestimated. Bleaching $1 notes and using the very same bleached ink to reprint the clean note as a $100 is one of the best methods of creating forged bills in the US. After all, you're using exactly the right paper and exactly the right ink, which is half the battle.

One other unfortunate side effect of having notes that are all the same size is that blind and visually impared people have no way of easily differentiating between denominations. Ie, there's no way they can tell if the "$20" that they've got back from a cashier as change is really a $1, as they're the same size and feel the same too.

Obviously, this isn't a problem if your notes are of different sizes and/or that are easily distinguishable through touch (via metallic foil, etc).

Although changing to notes of varying sizes would be of great benefit to the America public, it's unlikely to happen any time soon. Why? Well, big business is against it, especially those that have a lot of money invested in keeping the status quo - nobody wants to have to go through the expense and inconvenience of replacing and/or updating ATMs, ticket and other vending machines, etc if they can possibly avoid it.

Re:Size variation is good (for the consumer)

[thogard]

The ATM's already deal with different size currency and it reduceds the odds of loading up a $20 canister with $50s (which happens).

It also lets you sort out old bills faster to remove
them from circulation.

The new 20 should be a few mm smaller than existing bills.

While you're at it...

[Hard_Code]

...could you please make the $20 bill worth more? k thx.

mind blowing.

[twitter]

"The soundness of a nation's currency is essential to the soundness of its economy. And to uphold our currency's soundness, it must be recognized and honored as legal tender and counterfeiting must be effectively thwarted,''

So, the entire US economy is dependent on the government prventing people from publishing small bills that are backed soley by small bills. It's incredible that everyone's motivation to show up to work is those little pieces of paper. It's a wonder such a system can be stable. Even savages have enough sense to use shells or other objects that have a use as a store of value.

Time

[56ksucks]

Drat! They're really making it hard for us time travelers aren't they! How am I suppose to go back to the 80's to sell them future technology when no one will take future money?

it is too dark to notice

[gosand]

95% of the time, counterfeit bills are accepted by people who don't seem to notice that while the bill corners say $20, George Washington is in the center. Or that they're printed on normal grade paper.

It's usually so dark in strip clubs that the strippers don't notice. Only bring one or two though, or you'll get caught.

I actually know someone who did this in college. A couple of photocopied $20s on regular paper, crumpled many times, then folded up. He didn't get caught, but I really wouldn't want to get caught passing a fake bill in a strip club.

The new twenty isn't compatible with...

[yintercept]

...the chip in the back of my head.

I think it's great that the new bills can be picked up by the govt's secret sensors and every transaction traced by the police, but the dang things aren't compatible with the chip the CIA put in the back of my skull.

I would hate to have to get an upgrade. I hear the new chips by homeland security have bulky transceivers and mess with your mind.

Re:The new twenty isn't compatible with...

[warwick]

Are the only people who post to /. anymore ones with user IDs greater than 10000?

Re:The new twenty isn't compatible with...

[pyrote]

ya mostly.

Re:The new twenty isn't compatible with...

[Wolfrider]

It's only your imagination... (gestures with hand) "You don't need to see my Slashdot ID. I am not the droid you're looking for."

I hate this

[NickDngr]

I REALLY hate it when they do this. I work in a casino, and we have to update the bill validator firmware in every one of our slot machines every time they come out with a new bill design. It gets very expensive and time consuming. The treasury says they are "working with companies in the vending, gaming and public transportation industries to help them adjust their currency-reading devices to accept the new bills." What they mean is they are telling the validator manufacturers what they need to change in the firmaware. They aren't helping to cover the expense of updating my machines, nor are they helping to pay for the re-education of the cashiers. /rant

Re:I hate this

[jonr]

Oh boo-fucking-hoo... I feel so sorry for you. In what other business do people come in, give you their money for nothing, and leave? /standard flaming

DRM

[gosand]

4. Encryption, so that only I can use my bills

That would be DRM, Dollar Restriction Management.

I am pretty sure that Microsoft is working on this already, but their method is to just own all the money. Own it all!

Same sized bills = a Boon for leachers

[sully67]

Am I missing the point or would be making the bills a different size the easiest way to kill this practice stone dead?

This practice has been common in the UK for as long as I can remember with each different note being a different size and in recent years colour.

It just seems that clinging on to the sacrosant colour is holding back security for the larger donomination notes.

dammit...

[PhilHibbs]

currency

Is U.S. currency a victim of foreign competition?

[mpthompson]

I wonder if these relatively rapid changes to U.S. paper currency are a reaction to the fact there is now another paper currency vying for dominance -- namely the Euro. I believe that the vast majority of counterfeiting of U.S. currency occurs outside the U.S. and if the Euro is considered more secure in this regards it could be a serious threat to the dominance of the U.S. currency throughout the world. If this is indeed the case, it is in our (the U.S.) best interest to react to real and perceived vulnerabilities as quickly as possible and the American public had better get used to these kinds of changes to the revered greenback on a regular basis. As always, competition is a potent catalyst for change.

silly money!

[wfberg]

Pre-euro Dutch money was the absolutely silliest money on earth.

Check out these babies (the top ones are the newest you should be looking at;
10 guilder note
10 guilder note 25 guilder note 50 guilder note
100 guilder note
250 guilder note
1000 guilder note

If you don't have much time, just check out the 250. The newest notes feature almost exclusively abstract images, raised ink as well as different levels of height in paper (quite distinguisable by hand, or even in daylight), LSD induced colors, barcodes, microprints of poems, and no image of any identifiable person whatsoever!

Really, click on those links, and if you collect money (who doesn't? ;-) get your hands on some of those notes.. They are very purdy! Did I mention silly?

I was sad to see these wonderful notes go the way of the dodo with the introduction of the euro.. The euro is even a weaker currency (the guilder was linked to the Deutsch Mark, one of the hardest currencies in the basket).

Re:silly money!

[Inda]

I loved Dutch money when I went to Amsterdam. It was too funky to spend... but I did - all of it :)

UK money is boring. I'm a bit fed up of seeing the Queen's face everyday - if she were to smile every once in a while then I might feel different.

shopping list

[hpavc]

what is the low end shopping list to print your own passable $20 bills with your pc?

i have seen photocopiers that do an excellent good job. but i assume that i cannot go to dell.com and get buy a system that will work can i?

What about Chips?

[hipster_doofus]

One of the most secure "currencies" I've seen are casino chips. A counterfeiter would have to be incredibly skilled to create anything similar to some of the chips that Chipco and Paulson Gaming produce today. These are the chips that you see most-often at any major casino around the world. Not only is the chip material nearly impossible to duplicate, the counterfeiter would have to have some *very* sophisticated equipment to duplicate the dye and printing that chip manufacturers are able to accomplish.

As an owner of a set of Chipco chips, I can also attest to the fact that they are very durable and easy to clean, which should mean that we wouldn't have to make so much new currency each year just to replace the currency that gets worn out.

Why don't we all start using chips and plaques (the rectangular chips that you see used mostly in high-roller rooms)?

The Treasury Dept. is the Chief Counterfeiter!

[johnpipe]

The bills in circulation today are "Federal Reserve Notes" not backed by gold or silver, but The Constitution of the United States of America says:

"Section 10
No State shall ... make any Thing but
gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; ..."

Therefore ALL U.S. currency in circulation today is counterfeit. So, changing design and color won't stop the chief counterfeiters!

Re:The Treasury Dept. is the Chief Counterfeiter!

[sebmol]

Federal Reserve Notes and Treasury Notes are produced by divisions of the federal government. Hence, the provision of the consitution is fulfilled.

Banknotes in Ghana

[Aardpig]

A few years ago, I was working out in Ghana (Africa), and I was struck by the fact that the highest-denomination banknote was only 5,000 cedis (around $2 at exchange rates back then). This struck me as an inevitable consequence of the high inflation experienced by the country. However, one of my local friends pointed out a secondary factor.

The banknotes currently in circulation in Ghana were printed by the Royal Mint, in the UK. As well as the 1,000, 2,000 and 5,000 cedi denominations, a large number of 10,000 cedi notes were printed. They were shipped out to Ghana in two maritime containers - the huge bastards you see on freight ships.

Unfortunately, one of the containers went missing, probably due to collusion between local crime gangs and corrupt officials. As a consequence, the Government were unable to issue the other container-load of notes. Hence the absence of anything larger than a 5,000 cedi note in Ghana.

Just imagine if the theives had been able to spend the 10,000 cedi notes. Anyone know how many notes you can fit inside, say, a 20-ft container?

hmm

[Pros_n_Cons]

There must be a new conspiracy in the making.
See if you can find the next planned disaster. It's fun for the whole family.

Re:hmm

[Pros_n_Cons]

oops there is an '=' at the end of the URL, that should not be there

http://www.glennbeck.com/news/05172002.shtml

And what about other denominations?

[dacarr]

I once received a bogus $10. Wanna know something weird? Because of the bad quality, it looked a little like that new $20 on CNN.

And the subtle changes thing is nothing new. I mean, the Sackopotatoes dollar coin was apparently put in place to phase out the $1 bill, and before they refaced the $10, they put the security strip into it. As far as the dollar coins, I myself prefer them to $1 bills anyway - I don't have to fart around with trying to convince the farebox on the bus that the bill I feed it is a one, rather I just drop the coin in and go along my merry way. But I digress.

That they're making Yet Another version of the US $20 bill is kinda cool, but let's go with a standard and stick there for a bit. Better yet, let's reface ALL paper currency, conspiracy theories be damned.

The question on everyone's lips

[Nodatadj]

Do they still smell like cat piss?

Still paper? Still green?

[Xenex]

Why paper? Polymer notes last longer, are much harder to damage, and are much more difficult to counterfeit. Also, adding extra anti-counterfeiting measures such as transparent windows, micro-print, and watermarks is simple.

Why so much green? All the US notes are green, which makes distinguishing between denominations take longer than it should. If the notes were coloured, only a quick glance would be required to check denomination, especially for people with vision impairment.

To speak from my own experience in Australia, it's been all polymer notes since 1990. Each note is a different colour and length, doesn't rip, and is terribly difficult to counterfeit.

I'm just surprised this new $US20 isn't polymer. The technology works - why not use it?

Re:Still paper? Still green?

[Dirtside]

If the notes were coloured, only a quick glance would be required to check denomination, especially for people with vision impairment.

Unless their vision impairment is colorblindness. :)

Re:Still paper? Still green?

[Xenex]

I guess in that case they can read the number, or feel for the size differences of the notes. Someone has to find a problem with every system, don't they? ;)

It is an interesting point though; I wonder if there was any study into the colours used on the notes and the way people suffering colourblindness perceive them. A quick Google search didn't find anything about it...

Re:Still paper? Still green?

[prgrmr]

US paper money remained vitually unchanged from 1969 until we went to the "mononpoly" style money 7 years ago. Color could have been added a long time ago, as well as different sizes for different denominations. We have the Crane Company of Taxacheussetts to thank for our slow rate of change and improvement:

http://www.lynknight.com/articles/article2077.chtm l

They do "recall"!!

[voxel]

They do recall older bills. The Fed Gov. will recall bills from all banks, so all new cash given out will be the new bills.

Eventually MOST money goes through a bank. Over time, little original bills will exist.

What does the Gov do with the current bills? They burn them of course... Big heaping pile of burning money. Must be emotional to watch that happen...

- Jeff

Re:It will still be worth less than the euro....

[sebmol]

Well, considering that the total economic output of the EU is larger than that of the US, what did you expect? The GDP per capita might be lower, but if you consider that there are quite a bit more people in the EU than there are in the US, total GDP easily surpasses the US.

The value of a country's (or group of countries in the case of the EU) currency is an expression of the trust in that country's ability to pay its debt. That depends on economic growth and stability. At this point, currency traders apparently trust that the EU is more stable economically than the US.

It happened to me.

[TerryAtWork]

I was in a coffee shop about 3 am one Saturday when this kid tried to pay for his coffee with a fake ten (This is in Canada, the land where Moose rule).

The fake was easy to spot, printed on smooth paper on a colour ink jet printer - what made me laugh was some of it had got wet and the ink had run...

We called the cops and the kid disappeared.

Re:It happened to me.

[kingkade]

I don't think someone working in a coffee shop until 3 am is allowed to laugh at other people. It's in the bible, or something.

Re:It happened to me.

[TerryAtWork]

I wasn't WORKING there - I was getting WIRED there in true geek fashion!

Re:Swiss francs: Many more Security Features

[ssclift]

Check out the security features of Swiss money.

Swiss Bank Note Series

In addition to the colour changing ink, fine print, security thread (actually not really considered security, it just makes the note more recognizable in machines) and a watermark of a famous or important Swiss person, they have

• Holographic number in the middle... and down the side, labelled A to H, eight variants of the denomination number
• A. Irodin ink (shimmering>
• B. Digits in watermark
• C. A number that rubs off coloured onto plain paper
• D. Superfine outline of the number, or micro-perforations to form the number on higher denominations,
• E. Colour changing ink
• F. UV Visible ink
• G. Metallic numbering
• H. Numbering visible only at a sharp angle.
• and also Microtext on the note, and
• a raised section for the visually impaired.

That is serious forgery security. Then again, judging by its recent monetary and foreign policy the U.S. is getting a little tired of a strong currency anyway...

Obsolete Currency

[Detritus]

Old bills and coins are still legal tender, although they are worth more than their face value as collector items. You can no longer redeem gold and silver certificates for gold and silver, but the certficates are still legal tender.

"All coins and currencies of the United States, regardless of when coined or issued, shall be legal-tender for all debts, public and private, public charges, taxes, duties and dues."

Coinage Act of 1965

Mathematicians!

[m00nch1ld]

before the euro with its flashy pseudoarchitecture, germany even had gauss on the 10-mark note.
why do the americans always do presidents? i maybe can understand this in a representative monarchy like the uk, but...

Re:Mathematicians!

[sebmol]

Germany money always had artists and scientists on them. The 1000 DM bill had the Grimm brothers on it (whose stories some Americans might now as Disney movies, e.c. Cinderella or Snow White). I always figured that was because they didn't really have any great presidents/chancellors to put on their money (remember, the curent republic of Germany is only 54 years old).

The new Euro bills don't have any people on them at all. Instead, they feature (non-existent) bridges representing different styles of architecture. That was presumably to avoid inner-european conflicts on which countries get to put their famous person on the bills.

Re:Mathematicians!

[Paul Komarek]

We (Americans) don't have that many great presidents, either. But they still insist on putting them on the bills. Maybe this is because we're similarly impovrished w/r/t composers, artists, and scientists. ;-) Can you imagine putting Werner von Braun's picture on a US bill? Or von Neuman's?

Actually, we do have some good scientists and artists, but Americans wouldn't recognize them anyway. OTOH, having Guass (and a bell curve *with* the expression) on a bill is way to cool for us luddites here.

-Paul Komarek

Re:Mathematicians!

[Quikah]

Alexander Hamilton ($10) and Ben Franklin ($100) were not presidents. Hamilton basically established our national monetry system. Franklin was an inventor/scientist/statesman/philosopher.

Re:Mathematicians!

[default luser]

We don't always do presidents.

Hamilton adorns the $10 bill. Was he president? Nope.

Just the first Secretary of the Treasury under the new United States Government.

Re:Mathematicians!

[IWannaBeAnAC]

I really want one of the Serbian notes with Tesla on it!

Can't remember which note it is though, I just remember a Serbian friend of mine describing it once.

Re:Mathematicians!

[Paul Komarek]

That rocks!

Switzerland: Euler
Germany: Gauss
Serbia: Tesla

And in the US? Lying, cheating, stealing politicians like Andrew Jackson. At least Ben Franklin wasn't a president.

-Paul Komarek

Replace him with Harrison

[Stephen Williams]

Replace him with Harrison, and make the bill out of special paper that disintegrates after thirty days.

-Stephen

NOT the first time for color on U.S. bills...

[Xii]

The new $20 bill is the first U.S. currency since 1905 to have colors other than green or black.

Since the announcement of the new colors I've seen this statement several times but it's not true.
http://taco.com/reb/2bill.html

Re:NOT the first time for color on U.S. bills...

[stanmann]

Silver Certificates were "hard currency" vs what we now have which is floating. so it is half correct.

Re:NOT the first time for color on U.S. bills...

[kfx]

In addition to the use of red on the $2 Silver Certificates, I have a $1 Silver Certificate which uses blue for the seal.

...as well as religous proclamations

[f97tosc]

On the back I can still read that we trust in God. Well, I am not so sure I share these supersitious beliefs. Does that mean that I am not an American or that I should not use the bill? Tor

Re:...as well as religous proclamations

[Nicolas MONNET]

Are you invoking the 1st Amedment? T'was good while it lasted, wasn't it?

and the RIAA...

[Anonymous Coward]

the newest advances in the original copy-protection arms race

yeah, right... i'm sure copies will be available on Kazaa any day now.

a.c.

"THIS IS YOUR GOD"

[Tiger Smile]

That is the special message for those of us who have alien mind control blocking sunglasses.

PS: This is a joke. If you don't get it watch the 'B' movie They Live.

Kill the penny

[PateraSilk]

Here's another fun idea, while we're on the subject of circulating currency--how about getting rid of the penny and rounding everything to the nearest nickel? Another poster mentioned jingling coins being annoying--aren't pennies the epitome of a valueless annoyance?

Re:Kill the penny

[sebmol]

Psychology speaks against that. There's a country in the EU (I think it's Finnland) where all prizes must be rounded to the next 0.05. Accordingly, there aren't a whole lot of 0.02 and 0.01 coins issued by that country.

The point of this regulation was to avoid psychological tricks where prizes like 2.99 would trick more people into buying a product than when it was prized at 3.00. The difference between those two prizes is often perceived to be greater than the nominal value of 0.01. Getting rid of the penny would stop that same "trick" in the US, which is something the retail lobby will undoubtedly fight against strongly.

Re:Kill the penny

[PateraSilk]

The point of this regulation was to avoid psychological tricks where prizes like 2.99 would trick more people into buying a product than when it was prized at 3.00.

They can always use $2.95, I suppose. The harder psychological obstacle is the idea of not using 1,2,3,4,6,7,8, or 9.

$2 bills

[omacs]

Also... the article mentions 2-dollar bills. Since when have the States had Twos? We (Canada) got rid of ours almost a decade ago and the states is just starting to make them now? talk about behind the times. Or is that a joke?

Actually $2 bills have been around in the US for a long time. Sometimes when I need cash, instead of using the ATM I go into the bank and ask for $40 in $2 bills. I give a few of them to my kids.. it wows them every time!

So there were actually two major printings of $2 bills in the recent past, and I cant remember the exact years right now, but every $2 bill I've ever had has either been printed in 1956 (I think!) or in in 1996 (a rough guess again). Sometimes I get a stack of brand new, in sequence, 1996 (?) bills. The banks clearly haven't used up their $2 bill stash.

how will this effect bill changers?

[heff]

This new bill could potentially cause a whole slew of problems for bill collecting machines like change machines, ticket dispensers, and even those soda machines at amusement parks where the sodas are $4 a piece ( i only mention this because those were the only coke machines I ever saw that took 20's)

I wonder if these bills are going to be reverse compatible with the old ones.. like the quarters were when they redesigned them.

Amen...

[FirstNoel]

I just went down to the change machine here at work and broke a $10. 8 Sacs and 8 quarters...a alot better than having 40 quarters in my pocket.

Plus the Vending machines don't spit them back out.

Sean D.

...slipping a dollar coin into a stripper's g-str

[FirstNoel]

That could be fun.....

Sean D.

Why have money at all?

[bmalia]

I think that carrying around currency is outdated. How much of what you buy these days do you actually pay in cash? I use direct withdrawl for my car payment. When I pull up to a gas station, I'll use the pay-at-the-pump feature with my debit card. The only thing I need cash for is for buying a double-quarter pounder with cheese value meal or maybe a can of Mountain Dew from the vending machine.

Electronic forms of payment are becomming more prefered among vendors. And as a consumer, you should prefer them too. In 7 to 10 years, we should focus our attention on making electronic payments more secure and not finding a color scheme that is difficult to print out on an ink-jet.

Coins and bills are for collectors. Its 2003 people... we're supposed to have flying cars by now!

Why Not Just Track The Money?

[istartedi]

Why not just track the money? You need: 1. A camera looking over the shoulder of the cashier and 2. A database tracking each serial number.

I believe it is well within our image processing capabilities to pluck the serial number off a bill in real time.

Once you've captured the number, you can check for duplicate numbers, invalid numbers, stolen numbers, etc.

Of course this won't prevent you from getting a counterfeit bill in more informal situations, but it would seriously clamp down on the ability of bad guys to pass cash at stores.

There might be some privacy concerns, since the combination of till surveillance + regular video surveillance means that the store knows who has which bills. However, the government already knows the serial numbers on your Treasury bonds, and I haven't heard anybody complain about that.

I certainly like the idea of tracking money better than the oft-proposed alternative--tracking people.

The only barriers to this are setup cost to the retailer and getting the government to maintain the database; but in areas with a counterfeiting problem it might be worth installing, and maintaining a DB probably wouldn't dramaticly increase what's being spent on anti-counterfeiting now.

UV lights and those silly "pens" are useless

[doublem]

According to "The Art of the Steal" the use of a UV light or a special "pen" is a waste of time. The "Pen" relies on the PH of the paper, and dusting the bill with any number of inexpensive chemicals will alter the PH to pass the "Pen" test.

UV lights are a similar waste. The factors they test for do not really help determine if the bill is real or not.

its all a SCAM!

[HaveBlue34]

As soon as all these bills are in circulation and counterfeiters are making tons of the OLD, non-secure, or not so old and not very secure, and even the NEW bills the average person will be so pissed that they will stop carrying cash and relying more on creditcards or ANY digital payment system available. if that happens the use of cash will quickly diminish.

Re:i posted this story over a year ago

[Politburo]

At that time, there was no picture of the new note. Hence, no story.

you have to...

[zogger]

.. you have to differentiate between the concept of "money" and produced "wealth". You are correct, anything can be made "money" and used, especially at gunpoint and by inertia. the difference is, when your "moeny" is backed by a tangible, it cannot be inflated or deflated arbitarily. it can't be scammed or conned or disappeared or created by trickery. It's (precious metals now) also by far and away the oldest, most used and most "trusted" human currency, all the way back to pre biblical times. And you may still rest assurred, the very high level dudes on the planet still "trust" it. They just don't want you peons to use it, that's all, but they sure do. Don't believe me, go up to any big bullion holding bank and ask for a free sample of their worthless or near worthless precious metals.

They want you to keep using that counterfeit crap they print up, sweet deal for them! they can create boom/bust cycles, get you sucked in on credit, act all pious, the good times are rolling! Then WHAM, lower the boom, create a "depression", and walk away with your wealth for "pennies on the dollar". They just have to make sure they don't get too greedy, have some years in between their scam cycles,especially their larger ones, so people won't revolt against them.

How many factories or farms raptured away into the ether during the so called "great" depression? Zero, that's how many, just title in huge numbers got transferred up stream, all "legal". How convenient for them. Whoops, they also confiscated the gold back then, what a coincidence!

I would support a return to the original US monetary idea, but carry it a step further, to make the true monetary supply reflect produced wealth. I would recommend something along the lines of a monetary supply, that is not only backed and represented by precious metals at the top,those would be the representations called "money" as in coins, but by the top 100 commodities traded the previous fiscal year. These are quantifiable tangibles, produced wealth, verifiable, useful, and real. Those commodities could evolve around society's evolution and business. The supply itself could still be paper for day to day trading, or you would have the option of using the coins for the higher level currency, something durable and that can last. More than likely the coins themselves would become very valuable, with the ability to rise in value as humans work and produce wealth, sort of "interest" in a way, but not inflationary and 'borrowed into existence". The coins themselves raise in value, and the digits aren't as important, ie, example, it wouldn't matter if your 300 grand house now as represented in FRN's only "cost' 30 grand in "real" tangibles based money, or 3 grand for that matter, it really wouldn't matter, you'd still have the house,and no "new" money could be "borrowed into creation", it must represent true *produced* wealth, which is either grown, mined, or combined into a manufactured product. That's IT, that's what "wealth" is. "Money" is different, and eliminating the fraud potential with eliminating fiat currencies is a worthy goal, IMO.

I think keynesian economics and fractional reserve banking are just an absolute scam and lead to huge profits for people who have no moral claim to them other than through force of co-opted government arms and highly advanced shucksterism. It is a huge theft-by-deception,I mean really huge, it's buncoism on a grand scale. If you go back and research the passage of the federal reserve 'act' you will see how incredibly sneaky and bogus it was when it was voted on, because at the time it was reviled. If it worked in the long run we wouldn't be having governmental "debt", it would be impossible almost to even contemplate that, ie, you would find it impossible to "spend" that which you do not have. If fiat currencies had actual lasting value, then so could artificially high "stock" values, after all, it's essentially the same thing, a piece of paper or electronic entry that gets called as "worth" such and such when it is not in a

Re:you have to...

[zogger]

--the "Fed" is in an unusual situation of tgheir own making, because of the nature of using phony money. On one hand, they want a 'strong dollar", so tyhat joe sixpack can buy cheap imports. On the other hand, they want a "weak dollar" so that our exports can be sold overseas easier.

So let's look at what they are doing to go along with this dichotomy (apparent).

destroying the vertical manufacturing base, the real deal when it comes to creating wealth and not just re-arranging wealth. check, moving that stuff offshore as fast as they can.

OK, that leaves agriculture. Whoops, other nations are taking those markets, and fast.

Well, then, mining, that's it, that's the last of actual wealth producing industries. whoops again, "ponderosa mine closed due to the flying three eyed newt owl that nests in the varigated spiderwort".

Hmm, gee.... but but, stuff at the store is still cheap!

why yes, as long as you still have a job and keep using them credit cards!

HAHAHAHAH

It's just SO obvious the great rip-off is coming! It's gonna make the great depression look like a lemonade stand stickup!

I think the scam they will use to stifle dissent then and to impose drastic "police" presence and stop the riots will be biological in origin.
Cut to the US movie set --> "Que biological terrorist attack, take one!"

Telling small lies is hard, it's those really big ones that are easy it appears.

I remember my grandmothers and great aunts telling me about the great depression scam, how tons of the local real estate just shifted hands up stream.

got another one here local. civil war time, south loses, carpet baggers come down. Well, confederate money gets declared "illegal" it's made worthless, you need "union" money. Deal was, no one who lived down here had any "union" money. when the tax came due,or the farm bank note, surprise, no money to pay it. Carpetbaggers picked up entire farms around here for 50 or 60 cents. entire farms. To this day there's two families local here will not speak to each other.

True facts on what happens when your fiat money gets blown out. And lookeee just recent down in argentina, what happened there. It don't matter to US folks much because those are "foreigners on the TV",and "it can't happen here".

Uh huh, yep. It only already happened to peoples grand parents or great grandparents, but it's "impossible" to happen. "just because"

Mostly your are correct, I own "stuff", tangibles. I do business in tangibles as much as possible, sorta hard, but not impossible. I saw what was going to happen in the go-go 90's when I saw how incredibly greedy people can be, and what they think money and wealth are. It's like no one stops to think 'wealth" can't be created out of thin air, it has to be a human being doing something to create "wealth".

Ya, I'm holding out for the next two bubbles, real estate and derivatives. I should do OK then with my "loony" tangibles. I believe in metals, gold, silver, steel, brass, copper and lead. Good stuff.

Re:you have to...

[Beliskner]

Globalisation will have the general effect of allowing cheaper imports of all sorts of products. The US economy produces teh most high tech stuff in the world which is why it tries to patent everythign in sight

ObSimpQuot:

[Thud457]

Don't forget the one trillion dollar bill!

Reminds me of a trip to Mexico...

[Svartalf]

They'd just started issuing the new $20 bills and while I'd had a bunch of the old ones, at least one poor tourist had nothing but the new bills. The shopkeepers down in Nuevo Laredo were giving these poor people fits because they thought that the tourists in question were trying to rip them off with fake dollars.

It took somewhere around 10 minutes or so of arguing with the people, usually with something like 2-4 other American tourists trying to confirm the fact that the "new" money was legit to convince the shopkeepers.

And the changes are stupid, really. Leaching can be caught visually, but considering that the stores out there just use those stupid pens to check whether it's counterfeit or not, a leached bill will pass at least a couple of times. These changes will give the criminals pause for maybe a couple of months while the bills get into circulation.

New $20 bills?

[goodhell]

I'd like to see one. Could anybody send me just a couple of them so I could see them?

Re:New $20 bills?

[Kredal]

I still haven't seen the old kind. Neither has my brother. Tell ya what, you send me 2 of the old kind (so my brother and I can each have one), and I'll send you one of the new kind.

The true litmus test...

[reverseengineer]

"It will still have a different watermark and security strip. You could tell the difference in about 15 seconds," Ferguson said.

The problem is that 15 seconds is about 14 more seconds than your average counter jockey is going to spend looking at the twenty you just handed over. I can see taking that sort of time to verify a bill if it's a 100, but so many "yuppie food stamps" (crisp 20s, fresh from the ATM) get spent that it wouldn't be difficult to pass off a decent fake. It wouldn't pass muster with a Secret Service agent, of course, but if it can pass a cursory glance by the clerk, it'll go right in the drawer with its legitimate siblings from the Bureau of Engraving and Printing.

Re:Swiss francs: Many more Security Features

[WegianWarrior]

Intrestingly enought, european money seem to be more focused towards making it hard to copy as well as making it easy to see if it's a counterfeight. Many of the ideas used in the swiss note is used in Norwegian banknotes as well:

• Portrait watermark and security thread. When the banknote is held up to the light, you can see the security thread, a dark line bearing the text Norges Bank.
• Fluorescent print on the front. In addition, a narrow strip on both sides of the foil stripe will light up in ultraviolet light.
• Intaglio print, meaning that the print is slightly raised (try that on a inkjet...)
• Foil hologram stripe
• Snowflake with a hidden N, tilt the note to spot it
• Mother-of-pearl effect, tilt the note and marvel at the changing colours
• A register mark on both sides of the banknote. If the banknote is held up to the light, the mark will be completely filled and the ornament will appear symmetrical.
• When the banknote is exposed to ultraviolet light, part of the print as well as small fibres in the paper become fluorescent.
• Microtext hidden in parts of the design.

I like the idea of a raised section for the visually impared thought.. lets hope that comes in the Series VIII notes... which should come about 2015 or thereabouts.

As for your last comment... without saying anything more on the issue, I think the avrage US citizen is up for a rude surprice one of these days. Suddenly, their money is worth a lot less...

Um...OK.

[waldoj]

If they'd just take Jackson off the twenty, I'd be happy. If you're not aware, this is the guy that was responsible for deporting many of the native americans to Oklahoma.

OK, we'll do that. Just name a president that is without flaw or a disputed reputation, and we'll use him.

-Waldo Jaquith

Re:Um...OK.

[hackstraw]

I don't know how you define "flaw", but Jimmy Carter's reputation is fine.

Re:Um...OK.

[Zathrus]

The flaw there is that he's still alive. You cannot use a living figure on US currency or stamps.

Re:Um...OK.

[Megane]

You aren't old enough to remember the so-called "energy crisis" and lines at the gas pumps. His reptuation was bad enough that he didn't get re-elected. Except at least his bad rep was specifically due to performance, and not due to covering up a scandal.

For a president from that era, Ford is as good as any to choose from.

Re:Um...OK.

[zipwow]

How about we limit the filter from "without flaw or disputed reputation" to "hasn't flagrantly disobeyed the constitution"?

I'm sure this would bring in some candidates.

-Zipwow

Look in your wallet

[bill_mcgonigle]

What's the oldest bill you have in there? Mine's a series 1995 $1. Sure, you might get a series 1934 $5 once in your lifetime, but the graph of year vs. number of bills in your wallet is very heavily skewed towards today.

So, the problem will take care of itself in the normal old-bill destruction process over a number of years. You can get a bag of a thousand shredded dollars at the Treasury Dept. gift shop for $1 in a comemorative plastic bag.

Liberty Dollars

[mustermark]

America already has very difficult to counterfeit money with all these features, including DNA fingerprinting. Check out Liberty Dollars

BTW, they're inflation proof and just plain look cool.

Just don't use a color copier...

[Svartalf]

I do believe that the color ones are the only copiers with this lovely "feature".

strip clubs

[keldog728]

the two dollar bill is the denomination used in strip clubs. err... not that I'd know

Re:strip clubs

[ncc74656]

the two dollar bill is the denomination used in strip clubs.

That would explain why I've run across so many of them in the time I've lived in Las Vegas...before coming here, I'd never seen one.

Re:strip clubs

[Read Icculus]

the two dollar bill is the denomination used in strip clubs.

Damn buddy, you must going to the classy places. Seriously.

Re:Most common counterfeit detection will remain..

[xkenny13]

Most banks and stores that detect counterfeit bills do so using a special marker that leaves a particular mark/color on a true bill and nothing/or another special mark on fake. It's the reaction with the cloth-based real bill.

Unfortunately, this method isn't fool proof, either. Some counterfeiters will take a real $1 bill and bleach it till the ink is gone. Then they have a nice blank to run through the ink-jet printer, turning it into a $20, $50 or $100 (or whatever).

The feel of the paper is real, and it will indeed pass the "special marker" test. The stripe down the middle (assuming it has one) is still there, but probably reads the wrong information. Very, very few people squint long enough to read it anyway.

In short, you now have a largely passable counterfeit bill, and the "special marker" test won't help you to detect it.

Re:Most common counterfeit detection will remain..

[Nurf]

Most banks and stores that detect counterfeit bills do so using a special marker that leaves a particular mark/color on a true bill and nothing/or another special mark on fake. It's the reaction with the cloth-based real bill.

I like the way South African money is protected. It has a lot of different features, but IMO the best one is the fact that the bill looks completely different (and very pretty) under ultra-violet light. I have been to many a small store with an ulta-violet light mounted over the money tray in the till. Zero effort counterfeit bill checking!

American money is incredibly easy to counterfeit compared to many of the currencies I have used. It's also really stupidly designed. South African bills are all different sizes and colours depending on their denomination, and they are marked in braille too. This makes it really easy to identify a note in bad light, or if you are blind. They are easier to seperate in your wallet too. It also cuts down on the number of times you pay someone with a 10 when you meant to use a one.

It's funny that some Americans call the new notes "monopoly money", because that's what American dollars look like to us. :-)

Re:Becoming more and more like Europe

[Capt. DrunkenBum]

I know I am going to get modded down, but:

I just had to say. The European countrys don't want you, the Third world countrys don't want you. The middle east countrys want you dead..

Did you ever think maybe something is wrong with you?

No?

Perhaps you should.

Sponsored by Playstation?

[pommiekiwifruit]

Is there an X as well?

It figures...

[Trolling4Dollars]

What a dull design. I don't understand why America never tries something a little more radical with their money. Australian money has a much better design overall. Their bills appear to be made of a plastic or paper/plastic hybrid. They also have a clear portion which would be much harder to counterfeit. But I think the best feature of Australian bills is that the actual physical width of the bill increases with the value of the denomination by about 5 mm per bill. That makes it so much easier to tell ata glance what value your bill has without needing to actually read the numbers. I, for one, would love to see the old fashioned greenback go the way of the T-rex.

www.moneyfactory.com hosting service

[jea6]

Looks like we peaked at over 50Mbits per second at 2PM EDT. At that point, traffic was over 1000 hits per second.

2 bucks?

[Bobman1235]

From the article : The $1 and $2 notes will not change.

When's the last time they actually printed a $2 bill? ANyone? I think the only person who still thinks they're a viable monetary note is my grandfather, who still plays poker with fifty cent pieces.

Seriously.

Re:2 bucks?

[innate]

When's the last time they actually printed a $2 bill?

1996 (series 1995)

Currency changes

[labradore]

I, for one, am very sick of all this changing currency. I run a laundromat and depend on a bill changer. If the currency changes then I must pay almost $1000 for a new bill reader to accept the new 20s. The bill reader does not make me money, it is just the cost of doing business. Every time our stupid government decides to change the currency, that's more out of my pocket and into the pockets of the damnable changer manufacturers.

Re:Currency changes

[stud9920]

Yeah, 'cause buying a bill eater that can get a software update is soooo impossible...

Re:Currency changes

[Lord Barrabas]

Obviously you need to get into money laundering. hah!

Re:Now if they'd only take Jackson off the twenty.

[Zathrus]

He's also responsible for setting up the Federal Banking system, which is a large reason for why the dollar has become a stable and respected form of currency.

So maybe it does make sense to have him on the currency after all.

Yeah, he was hardly the finest president. He was also hardly the worst... as with many great leaders he was very controversial.

Should not make changes to our bills

[nurb432]

First of all, the average person doesn't know real from fake. With all the 'new' versions of bills floating around, what does a real one look like..

It will only serve to let more counterfeit bills pass, or legit ones be refused.

Sure they get caught back at the federal bank level, but by then, who cares.. the counterfeit did his job and is long gone.

Plus why not just copy the old bills, they are going to be accepted for many generations to come around the world... why even bother faking the new ones and waste the energy?

The 'look' of money was consistent, represented stability ( be it real or perceived ), and should NEVER have been messed with.

Let me just whip out my particle accelerator

[Unknown Poltroon]

ANd hook it up to the Mr. Fusion, well have gold a'plenty in no time.

Stupid copy protection

[elmo13]

First they try to stop us making 'back ups' of our music and videos (for personal use of course), then they make it even harder for us to make 'back ups' of our money.

Thats just stupid

-- http://www.spran.co.uk (America doesnt exist)

Re:Hmmm...how about a quick google?

[scrawny]

As old paper money and coins wear out or become damaged, the Federal Reserve banks collect and return the old money to the U.S. Treasury. Paper money is shredded and burned into mulch, and coins are sent back to the U.S. Mint for melting and recasting.

When the Treasury produces new paper money and coins as replacements, they ship the currency to the 12 Federal Reserve banks, which then put the cash into circulation.

i got this from siainvestor.com; there was much info like this to be had. i have also seen a TV show about this. aside, i bought a pen with a shredded $100 in it from Washington DC a number of years ago as a souvenir for maybe $1.29.

9/11-Money Coincidence

[Mr.Sharpy]

I you haven't ever seen it done before, fold a twenty in a certain way and there is a striking similarity in the image to what the burning WTC looked like. I suspect that in the next revision of the currency you will see nothing like that.

If you want to see this weird coincidence, go the following link and follow their instructions. Yes Yes the site is a little strange, but it is still rather interesting.

http://www.twin-towers.net/20_bill1.htm

Re:When can we break from paper currency?

[blibbleblobble]

Gold?

Just use this

[rkent]

[ Printer-friendly Version of this Article ] ... Yes, that's from the CNN article.

US Currency: Evil (and Good)

[ChaosDiscord]

We have some of the most distinctive currency on the planet. The green and black bills we print are recognized everywhere, in part because no one else is willing to print currency quite that ugly. If you quickly flash a mess of bills from most countries in front of someone, they would be unable to identify the source country. It's just a patchwork of bright colors without any key identifying characteristic. Flash some US dollars and the heavy green markings instantly identifies it.

By being (basically) one color and using the needlessly closed and old fashioned design, we end up with currency that just looks evil. When you look at a good ol' US greenback, you know you're looking at the root of all evil. You have to respect it, in much the same way you might respect a court summons. It's dark and gritty, suitable for underhanded bribes and black market deals. When you frame the first dollar your business earns it remains an ugly green mark on your wall, no one will confuse it for some piece of nice art, it evokes the blood sweat and tears that went into starting the company.

Adding more colors is a mistake. So is opening up the design (Jackson is no longer imprisoned in a bubble). Our currency is starting to look open, friendly. This is an insult to our bill's heritage as something that looks evil and is widely identifiable.

Keep our money evil!

e-money?

[peter303]

Why have 20s at all? Perhaps only 5% of my life's cash flow is in cold physical cash with the rest in non-cash transactions. And I see others card everything- a hamburger, smokes, a movie ticket.
Anonymous small cash hasnt caught in the States yet, but many Euro cities use smart-cards for everything. That is probably the future.

Specimen

[cwikla]

Isn't it a little odd that the picture of the new, harder to counterfit, $20 bill needs to have "specimen" tacked on to it?

Re:Is U.S. currency a victim of foreign competitio

[evilWurst]

The most popular/stable currency is always the one with the biggest counterfeit problem. Once a currency gets commonly used in a foreign country, it's a ripe target for fraud, because those people are less able to detect the fakes. If the euro gets internationally respected at that level, it'll be massively faked too... in non-euro countries, where crappy fakes will be accepted.

photoshop

[petecarlson]

Looks like it's time for a Photoshop on Fark.

Re:There's nothing appealing about Denise Richarar

[guacamolefoo]

There's nothing appealing about Denise Richarards

There are lots of appealing things about Denise Richards - her tits, her ass, and her "mouth hanging open 90% of the time."

If you need convincing, you can check out her tits:
- Here and
- Here

You can rest assured that I have check the links thoroughly. I will consider the site to be slashdotted in advance. If this post isn't a "+5, Informative" then nothing is.

GF.

Re:It will still be worth less than the euro....

[thelexx]

Please elaborate, I'm not sure what you mean. The ECB has said they don't want to risk inflation by lowering rates further and the Fed is saying it can't raise rates without jeopardizing the "recovery". The Fed is between a rock and a hard place BIGTIME right now. Lower rates and court inflation or raise rates and bust the borrowers/lenders. They are betting on inflation not getting out of control before the cheap money somehow sparks a recovery. Think Alan has his fingers crossed though? I don't. There is something else at work and it's related to oil IMO. In particular, OPEC is no longer in a position to dictate prices to the US. That pressure on the dollar being removed, by itself, has to have fundamental repercussions.

Better than counterfeiting:

[gantrep]

1st guy buys a magazine with a hundred dollar bill and gets $95 in change. Second guy in suit comes running in two minutes later, flashes fake FBI badge, and holds up a picture to the cashier of the guy who just bought the magazine. "This man has been passing passing counterfeit money in the area. Have you seen him?" "Yeah he just bought a magazine." "Did he happen to pay with a hundred dollar bill?" "Why... Why yes he did about two minutes ago!" "May I see it? Hmmm. Yes it's counterfeit. I'm going to have to confiscate this for evidence. Which way did he go?"

Canada is doing this, and it sucks

[xtal]

We have a $1 and $2 coin already. We're getting a $5 coin, too, unless something changed.

This means at any time, I might have ~100-200g of change on me. Having heavy pockets gets old fast, and digging through fistfulls of change is a PITA. I'm going to resort to carrying around a moneyback on a rope soon. It'll double as a self defense tool against muggers - I'll brain you with my bag of money. Hahaha.

It'd be cooler to see disposable electronic cards of some sort.. they don't cost too too much and can be made as anonymous as cash. Although, you do have the electronic tampering issue without a clearinghouse of some type. That'd be bad. I have a theory that all these coins are supposed to deter people from using paper money..

Re:When can we break from paper currency?

[satterth]

And what would you rather have?

more coins or smart cards?

Re:Now if they'd only take Jackson off the twenty.

[Megane]

You know, it sort of looks like someone put a towel over his shoulders in preparation to give him a haircut. Okay, so I guess that's the kind of cape guys wore back then, but in this particular rendering it really looks like he's about to get a haircut.

By the way, one thing I didn't realize was already in the current money design is the face watermark. I just looked at a current design $50 and realized that I could see Grant's face on the right side of the bill as a watermark. (looks in wallet) Yep, Andy's face is a watermark on the $20 too.

Why not do the job properly ?

[ukoda]

I recently travelled to the US from New Zealand and found the money a real pain. Kiwi money is plastic and all different colours and sizes. Over here you simply look at the edge of the notes in your wallet to see the correct colour and fish out that one. While in the US I had to remove the notes from my wallet first so I could read the numbers. As a tourist this made me feel uncomfortable about doing public transactions, not being one who likes to 'flash the cash'.
I worked on note vending machines at the time of our change from paper to plastic money so I was one of the people invited to the Reserve Bank to see the features of the new money. We where given real and counterfeit US money and asked to tell which was which, it was impossible to tell to the untrained eye. Then we where shown some of the methods used to try and counterfeit the Australian currency, which uses the same technology as ours. At was funny to see bits of paper with holes cut in them for the clear window etc. They also showed off some ideas they haven't used yet. One was a clear window at each end with printed lines that create an interference pattern when the note is folded in half. I also saw what happens if you over heat the plastic notes, they shrink ! But don't worry you have to get them real hot to do that. On a practical note (no pun intended) you need to look at static handling for new plastic notes in note handling machines or else the stick together.

Boost the economy

[clambake]

People tend to spend change quicker than they do bills, especially here where change in meaningless. Having $5 and $10 coins would mean an instant boost to the conomy where people will be spending mor ein little increments than they think they are.

What about the Afro?

[kisak]

I can only imagine what they will call the currency when Africa get a free trade sone...

Er, what?

[zipwow]

Jackson set up the federal bank? Or not. From "A Time Line of the National Bank", Jackson vetoed the National Bank's recharter in 1832.

Lastly, I think that in retrospect, the deportation of the Cherokee (and the thousands of deaths incurred during the process), despite a Supreme Court Ruling in their favor, slides down that hill from "controversial" to plain out and out "wrong"

-Zipwow

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[account_deleted]

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Acceptance of older bills

[danimrich]

Being from Europe, I still have a couple of older $1-$50 bills lying around. When I come to the US in, say, a few years, will these bills still be accepted by stores or will I need to exchange them for newer bills?

Re:Acceptance of older bills

[Vegeta99]

YEah. I still see old $20's all the time. (This will be our 3rd style Federal Reserve Note.)

Re:Dollar coins and the response

[PateraSilk]

You'd think the Sacagawea coins were as heavy as old silver dollars the way people have been talking about the massive amounts of change they'd have to carry!

Re: ...slipping a dollar coin into a stripper's g-

[Thurn und Taxis]

I don't know about you, but if I saw a stripper with a bulge under her panties, I'd leave the room pretty quickly.

Re:Credibility

[IWannaBeAnAC]

Actually, I think at one point downtown Tokyo was worth more than the whole USA :-)

My business plan...

[rleibman]

1. Print some pretty pictures and tell everyone I'll store their gold which they can later retrieve
2. Forget the gold, just give them the paper.
3. ???
4. Profit!!!

Man I wish we were back on the gold standard!

There are several reasons why it's okay

[mindstrm]

First, realize that counterfeit US currency is a much larger problem outside the US, for joe average. I live in Central America.. and seeing counterfeit bills is much more common. It's not like you see them every day, but if someone hands you US cash, especialy $100, you look very carefully. I've seen people who receive the odd counterfeit bill right from the bank.

It's not to absolutely prevent counterfeitting, but to make it easier to detect fakes. So if the bank hands you a stack of new-style 100s, it's easier for you to inpsect the bill than it is for old ones.. both because they are less worn, and becuase of the newer features. I've seen a counterfeit 100 that fooled several bankers.. it ahd everything, the 2 tone ink, watermarks, the embedded black thread or whatever it is, etc. If you compared it side by side, you could see it was wrong.. the watermark face was too fuzzy, the embedded strip wasn't clear enough, the 2tone ink wasnt' quite the right color, and the serial number was slightly wrong in color, and the paper didn't quite feel right.. but despite all that, you could easily convince yourself it WAS real.

IF someone handed you a stack of bills, and they were all old 100s... you are going to be suspicious. You are going to study carefully whether they are real or not. If I get a stack of 20s out of the machine, and one of them is oldschool, I have a more careful look at it.. something I woudln't do if they hadn't changed the printing. Doubly so if it's a 100.

It's not as rampant in the US because people are interrogated for passing counterfeit currency. Here, if someone passes one, the store or bank just says "this is counterfeit" punches a hole in it, and gives it back to you. Unless you were, say, trying to pass off a big stack of them, the cops aren't even called... it's no big deal, it's a fact of life.

If you walked into walmart with a bunch of 20s that don't feel quite right, look old and beat up, and are the old style, you can be sure that it's more likely someone will take a close look at them than if they were the newer ones and felt the same. And then you'd go to jail.

As for "printing as much as you destroy", now you are talking about a whole different issue.. the amount of cash in circulation is a meaningless number, other than meaning "do we have enough cash to conveniently let our economy work". The actual money that exists and cash in circulation are two very different things.

ON a side note... coming from a place where US currency in bad shape is not as accepted.. the newer large-face bills actually end up with the face getting rubbed off where the bill is folded much quicker than the older ones. IT's kind of annoying, because here, a bill in bad shape is not always accepted, as ultimtaely the US banks that take currency from foreign banks reject currency in bad shape.

Nope.

[mindstrm]

Yes, old notes are valid money. BUT you forgot, or don't know, that cash circulates... bills eventually, from banks, make their way back to the Fed, where old ones are destroyed and new ones issued in their place. That's what he means. You will find many less old bills in circulation now than when they were first issued.

Furthermore, the reason YOU don't care about counterfeit bills is because you live in a country where counterfeit bills are extremely rare (The US). Counterfeit US currency is MUCH more of a problem outside the US, where a HUGE portion of the US cash in play exists. Over 1/3 of US bills are outside the US.

Counterfeitters who are in it for "the fun of it" are not the ones to worry about. It's those who pass off huge amounts of fake bills that are at issue, and as the number of old-style bills in circulation goes down every day, and the number fo new bills goes up, having any significant amount of old style bills used in a transaction gets mroe and more suspect, and people will look at it closer and closer.

If it was good enough to be given to you, it is good enough to spend, except if you spend that fake $100 at the wrong place, you'll end up spending the afternoon with the police, and if they find that you KNEW it was fake, you'll be spending a lot more time with them. I guarantee after the first time you lose a few hundred bucks due to counterfeit bills that you "didn't think to check closely", you'll see it in a different way.

If you try to, say, deposit them in a bank, and the bank realizes they are fake, you don't get your money, or your bills back.

bank raphael

[rapiddescent]

is this story related to the fact that saddam husseins son 'withdrew' 2bn in US Dollar notes from the bank in Baghdad 2 days before the US troops got there. Apparently the cash withdrawal weighed 22 tonnes and was taken away in farm vehicles. no doubt found its way to a swiss bank... it amazes me that so much money could be there in cash. what were they selling? rd

Re:But... sue - for what?

[Zaiff Urgulbunger]

'cos if they sued, what would they get paid in?! They'd have to sue but ask for the settlement in Euros!

Yeah - but

[Zaiff Urgulbunger]

Regarding easy forging, always remember that MS Excel became the No.1 spreadsheet over Lotus 1-2-3 *because* it was easier to copy.

So what does that tell ya? Eh?!

oh, i can only hope...

[inkedmn]

What do you think that chances are of Jackson being in the classic "Buddy Christ" pose?

Re:Monopoly money

[phillymjs]

I don't know about the photocopiers sold in Oz, but the high-quality color copiers sold in the USA have built in currency detection. They do stuff to make the copied bills unusable, like make a perfect copy of a bill but make the entire page hot pink. Other copiers make the copy, but insert a code number somewhere on the bill. When the bill makes its way to the Secret Service, they find the code, contact the company, and find out where that copier is located, which speeds up the investigation quite a bit. IIRC, a few years back they nailed some idiot Cornell students this way. Unfortunately I can't find the story on Google, and I don't quite remember where I heard it-- possibly from one of the Discovery Channel or History Channel documentaries concerning the U.S. Mint or the Secret Service or counterfeiting.

~Philly

Change machine.

[mindstrm]

Your bill would have to be pretty damn good to fool the change machine.

Most businesses that can make lots of change are wise to laundering, and take steps to prevent it.

THe way counterfeitters make money is by selling counterfeit dollars in bulk to someone else for so many cents on the dollar.... nowhere near face value. Like, to a drug dealer, or anyone else into the underworld who is in a better position to launder it.

Blind people

[marcushnk]

How does this affect Blind people?? They often can only figure out what note they are holding by its physical features.. have they changed?

ACtually... it's the opposite.

[mindstrm]

Fake US currency is a much larger problem outside the US than it is internally.. if you go to a foreign country with a currency pegged against the dollar, or a place where the dollar is accepted generally, you will find people inspect the bills much more carefully, and are more knowledgable about how to detect fakes than your average american clerk. Don't make the mistake of thinking they know less about it than you do. They often won't accept bills if they are too beat up, even if they appear real.

You general don't check all your 20s, especially if they are all in the new format. If it was a roll of old 20s, battered and beaten, you might check them very carefully, as even the fact that they are all old format raises a flag.

Susan B. Anthony dollars, aka

[Conspir8or]

"Carter quarters." A boon to vending machine operators throughout the late Seventies owing to the carelessness of the spending public.

Actually, someone deployed one of the Sacajawhatsis dollars at the low-stakes poker game two weeks ago, and it drew suspicious stares when it landed in the pot. I recall quipping that someone must've been to one of the local Indian casinos recently.

Re:Susan B. Anthony dollars, aka

[sootman]

My friend refers to them as "Post Office Money" (jokingly, almost like "Monopoly Money") because you get them in change from stamp machines at the post office. That's the only place I see them anymore.

Re:PBS show

[phillymjs]

I don't know the name, but I did see it-- that guy does more than copy the official currency. (Note to non-USian readers: it is not illegal to duplicate US currency if you alter the size by a certain amount so as to make it unusable as money to anyone with two brain cells to rub together). Anyway, the artist who does that stuff also makes his own U.S. currency designs and tries to 'spend' them as well.

You might also remember the tale of Emperor Norton of San Francisco, which it would seem from this page was part of the same show. That guy made up his own currency, and freely spent it-- it was accepted by the shopkeepers as though it were the real thing. Apparently authentic Emperor Norton money that has survived to modern times is worth really big bucks these days to collectors.

~Philly

Australian money images and info

[spoco2]

I was suprised I had to read down so far to see anything about Australian currency, considering it was the first country in the world to use entirely polymer notes for all its money. Here are the notes as we use them.

Re:When can we break from paper currency?

[satterth]

Imagine getting mugged and having your finger or thumb chopped off. I'd rather have some type of removable object that needs secondary comfirmation. I know the existing debit card fits into this, but it has to be free to use to be widely accepted. I hate to pay to spend my money.

Re:Now if they'd only take Jackson off the twenty.

[Guppy06]

What, you're expecting people to know their history? Benjamin Franklin wasn't even president, but nobody seems to question his presence on the $100. It's not that I don't agree with you, it's just that this issue has "lost cause" written all over it.

damnit.

[_outcat_]

Wouldn't it be nice if we did currency by the bitwise operations used for subnetting?

Then instead of these damn eight 1's I have in my wallet, I'd have $255.

Re:Yay!

[Wolfrider]

--I wouldn't mind if they WERE for a change... I had a look at the new $20 bill picture and thought "MAN that's ugly!!"

Counterfeits will increase?

[mrmeval]

>>Little off the norm for Slashdot, but it's interesting since computers have vastly simplified forgery."

The first major remake of the 20 dollar bill was supposed to prohibit forgery, yet forgery increased, probably due to counterfeiters capitalizing on the newness of the bills.

Many stores now use the gold detector pens. Those pens actually work sometimes, try them on different papers.

I have worked as a cashier and these bills look worse than some pictures printed off a computer.

In fact one method of counterfeit detection is to look for the ink runs, the glitter ink that comes of, misalignments, poor quality paper, etc. The others methods are on that chart showing an absolutely perfect bill, but if I follow the chart they are all counterfeit.

Forgery prevention through quality mismanagement is just plain wierd.

Oh, and they stink too, the smell is just nauseating. A rather poor showing by printers of the most collected product in human history.

ObURL: The mysterious link between the 20 and 9-11

Link for pics of Aussie Currency

[shitdrummer]

Australian Currency

Great pics of our Aussie currency. Also includes info on the people on the notes.

Barcodes: Been There, Done That

[Pakup]

The Dutch had a few barcoded banknotes until the Euro replaced them. If you're interested in ordering some for your own economy, the Dutch printers Joh. Enschedé will do them up for you. As they say "The use of bar-codes . . . gives a banknote an unmistakable contemporary feel."

two words,

[pair-a-noyd]

butt ugly.

HK's Got 'Em Now

[Pakup]

If you liked the silly old guilder notes don't despair. The designers of those crazy Dutch notes had to look elsewhere for work when the Euro came in and they found it in Hong Kong; unfortunately their design for the HK$10 note, interesting as it is, looks nothing Chinese and everything Dutch.

Behind the times

[spudgun]

New Zealand changed to Decimal Currency ( Dollars and cents from Pounds etc ) back in 196?
Back then the Bills were Different Colours and Sizes
( one Brown , Two Purple, Five Orange, Ten Blue, Twenty Green, Fifty Orange, Hundred Red )
for someone like me who didn't see lots of 100s or 50s it was easy tell everythign but those two apart
the 1 was the smallest bill the 100 the bigest,
this mean that bleachign a $1 you can't reprint it into anything else.

NZ recently (ie in the last 10 years) Changed to Plastic Money with See-through Windows in the same sizes and colours

you still can't Print plastic with seethrough windows on your inkjet printers.

I wonder to myself how much the company that makes the textile/paper for the Greenback pays in donations to political parties.

switching would mean only Large organisations / countries could counterfiet , and there is nothing stopping them doing that now anyway.

( /. needs a spellchecker. )

other money links

[Smoking]

Euro notesfor the US citizens who might not have seen them yet...
Swiss banknotes also a favorite of drug dealers... Please notice that they include many security features (like euros) and the 4 national languages (the fourth one is spoken by only 30000-50000 people).
Notice the 1000 (~650 $) francs note, highest bill in circulation in the world. You can buy your car in switzerland and not even look like you have much money in your wallet... These are always carefully checked...
Lastly the new 20 pesos bill from México (third from the top). It's polymer based and includes a little transparent window... Supposedly undestroyable (except by fire...)

No, it means you should drop your apathy.

[jotaeleemeese]

If you belive those superstitious proclamations should not be there, you should make this known to your representatives, people in charge of issuing currency, etc.

more fun with Yen

[gpvillamil]

If you try putting yen notes into some color photocopiers, it will produce an all-black sheet of paper!

I don't know if this is built-in to the machine, or something to do with the paper.

I discovered this accidentally while photocopying receipts for an expense report.

hang on

[RMH101]

shouldn't that be pictures of presidents dead from the neck up?

$3 bill worked ok

[SgtChaireBourne]

The three dollar bill with Alfred E. Neuman worked fine for a while. It lead to a run on that particular issue of MAD:

We [Mad magazine] had published a three-dollar bill with Alfred's, instead of some President's, picture, on it. It was not a stat of any U.S. denomination bill. It was a Bob Clarke "simple" rendering of one. It lacked etched details, machined scrolls and all of the accouterments of a genuine bill. But it was, however, freakishly being recognized as a one-dollar bill by the newly-introduced, relatively primitive, technically unsophisticated change machines...

-Al Feldstein on the FBI experience.

New twentys?

[Alphtoo]

Damn, I'd better print out a bunch before the new ones come out!

is it supposed to look that old?

[terrox]

The American style is very traditional, still using Ye-Olde fonts and lines. When are they going to change and go with something new? If that poll question said "Do you think the money could look better?" rather than "Do you think this is better than before?" the percentage would probably be the same because everyone would think it is better than the last design already... wouldn't they?

Saudi liberation

[Deflagro]

Guess who's next in line to be liberated. I'm sure they've only been spared because of their billions in holdings at certain New York banks. Nevermind 90% of these terrorists are Saudi, Iraq is a much scarier 3rd world country.

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[account_deleted]

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Re:Monopoly money is for ass-clowns

[Rivabem]

Funny.
A couple of months ago your country started a war just because a certain oil producer country was thinking of selling the oil for EURO's...

But, selling it for EURO's would make too much dollars go back to US, causing inflation, causing the Central Bank to maybe set a 0%/year interest rate...causing them lots of BIG money to be invested on other countries all at once, putting american banks in trouble, and so on...