Apple Updates iBook Line With G4 Processor

I was looking at some laptops today by Dancin_Santa · 2003-10-22 01:23 · Score: 0, Troll

I went laptop shopping to see what kinds of options were available for Mrs. Claus's sister in Germany.

I was absolutely blown away by the iBook. Not in a good way though. In the current line of iBooks, though stylish and finally Unix-based, the laptops are large and fairly oversized when compared to comparable laptop systems. The Toshiba, Sharp, and Panasonic models are much smaller, offer more power, and frankly look better than the somewhat dated iBook models.

However, if the G4 will be installed, perhaps all that size will pay off.

Re:I was looking at some laptops today by BlueGecko · 2003-10-22 01:40 · Score: 4, Insightful

I honestly do not find the iBooks--at least the 12.1" versions--to be that large. They are a bit thicker than competition, but they also can take a tremendous beating. I have dropped my current iBook three times, and my previous one four or five, and neither was hurt at all. (What finally did my old iBook in was actually when idiot moving people dropped a 100 pound crate on it, which cracked the LCD. I currently use it as my home server.) By comparison, I have heard stories from my friends of when they drop their IBM and Sony laptops and they shatter badly. Yes, this is anecdotal, but If we're talking only about a pound difference weight-wise for the extra stability then it's certainly worth it to me.
Re:I was looking at some laptops today by Marc2k · 2003-10-22 02:00 · Score: 1

By comparison, my TiBook fell off of my desk (normal desk height, 2.5'-3' maybe), and busted out the IrDA , cracked the plastic interior, and bent a little of the frame around the IrDA port. The IrDA port I could care less about, but the case looks a little nasty, and not long after, it myseriously stopped working (it freezes even running the kernel on the OS install disc when reinstalling, and the hardware diagnostic tool reports that all hardware is nominal). I'm taking it to get fixed, even without AppleCare, which definitely shows love, but I'm pretty disappointed with its durability.

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--- What
Re:I was looking at some laptops today by Incongruity · 2003-10-22 02:10 · Score: 1

You do realize the irony in your post is that you too posted virtually the same sort of annecdotal evidence, except without the specific annecdote, right? Just because you proclaim something doesn't make it true... in fact, a good ol' annecdote would have given your assertion a bit more weight...otherwise you could have sited materials used or specific, stated design philosophy from IBM. But alas, you chose the ironic route and didn't do anything of the sort.
Re:I was looking at some laptops today by Broken+Bottle · 2003-10-22 02:16 · Score: 0, Troll

Yeah, but it's over a grand for a 12.1" screen. Who in their right mind would buy something like that when it's sitting on the shelves at Best Buy next to a lot of laptops by HP, Sony, and Toshiba that are snappy dressers too, along with a LOT more Mhz, MBs, and GBs for the same amount of money. Gee, they're cool, but a terrible value...

Chris
Re:I was looking at some laptops today by nehril · 2003-10-22 02:17 · Score: 2, Funny

yeah, 800mhz G4, student-proof construction and 6 hr battery life for $1000 is such a turn-off.

however, if they raise the price to $2000and cut the battery life in half, perhaps you will be more impressed.

p.s.
... and finally Unix-based ...

what rock have you been living under? ibooks have run osx since day one... YEARS ago.
Re:I was looking at some laptops today by ViolentGreen · 2003-10-22 02:30 · Score: 1, Insightful

The screen size is the turnoff to me. A 12' screen is way too small for me to get anything done on.

I was considering buying the 12 inch powerbook until I actually saw the screen sitting next to the 15. Now I am sure that I do not want a twelve inch but don't want to pay the extra for the 15 inch.

--
Not everything is analogous to cars. Car analogies rarely work.
Re:I was looking at some laptops today by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 02:33 · Score: 0

Pardon my french, but what the FUCK? Why was this post moderated "overrated?" Is there some troll out there with mod points who wanted to take one down for his homiez?
Re:I was looking at some laptops today by AKAImBatman · 2003-10-22 02:42 · Score: 1

> I gaurantee that you haven't heard a story of someone
> dropping an IBM laptop and it shattering badly. IBM make
> by far the toughest laptops in the world (which aren't
> specifically ruggedised) You can stand on them, drop
> them, kick them shake them etc. and they just won't break.

*cough*bullshit*cough*

IBM laptops are designed for a six month life cycle. After that, the execs who pay big bucks for them are supposed to pass them on to juniors and get themselves a new laptop. The passed on laptop happily fails within a month or two, leaving the junior owner in a tight spot. Ruggedized. HAH!

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Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
Re:I was looking at some laptops today by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 02:47 · Score: 0

ancedotal yes !

my brother dropped his iBook ONCE and it was hosed, i am talking about a small two foot drop (i saw it happen), cosmetically the screen was a little crooked and the hard drive was dead.

Sony laptops suck . period.

Now I'm sorry but IBM laptops are in a different league than the above. I administer a small sales force and they all have IBMs. These things are beat to hell and back, their cases are tough tough tough.
Re:I was looking at some laptops today by rbrunner · 2003-10-22 02:54 · Score: 1

They make a 14 inch iBook that's just what you're looking for. Its $1299.
http://store.apple.com
Re:I was looking at some laptops today by bhtooefr · 2003-10-22 03:00 · Score: 1

OK, so you're a student. BAM. Except for CPU (which I've heard isn't bad in the iBook), it's just as good as the Dell outrageously low priced Inspiron 1100 deal of the week (typed from such a Dell, but I didn't have a choice on that :-|).
Re:I was looking at some laptops today by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 03:02 · Score: 0

i don't know what universe u are in, but IBMs are way better than most laptops i've dealt with. I have people still using 3 year IBMs with no problems. Seriously, what other laptops are better/equivalent ?
Re:I was looking at some laptops today by bhtooefr · 2003-10-22 03:04 · Score: 1

BTW, that even refers to the 14.1" model.
Re:I was looking at some laptops today by ViolentGreen · 2003-10-22 03:05 · Score: 1

yeah but the powerbook is so much prettier...

I am planning on looking at that. I was just commenting on why someone wouldnt want that "excellent deal" for under $1000

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Not everything is analogous to cars. Car analogies rarely work.
Re:I was looking at some laptops today by b17bmbr · 2003-10-22 03:07 · Score: 1

because: one, the screen res and clarity kicks ass. try looking a that POS dell screen for anhour or two. you'll get a headache. two, the keyboard is a dream to type/code on (except no g**damn delete key. oh wait, i use vim, just hit x). three, because it just plain freakin works. you pay for what you get. buy some POS markup ODM portable from dell/hp/sony, etc., you get what you pay for. i'll tkae the rock solid os x, the tough cover, and the greta ergonomics (and yes, it does matter.) i ahve a 12"/700mhz ibook. i love it. one thing you can be sure of. even if i ran linux on any laptop, which i would do, not a single laptop would ever gain the relgious following that apple's do. and it's not an OS thing either. beacuse we'd all be running debian on or stinkads.

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My problem? I was perfectly gruntled, until some numbnuts came by and dissed me.
Re:I was looking at some laptops today by rbrunner · 2003-10-22 03:16 · Score: 1

I do agree about the screen size. 12 inch screens are too small. I plan to get a 15 inch PB when I replace my current PB G3. Hopefully I can hold out until G5s make it to the PowerBooks. Based on history, I'm guessing G5s around the end of 2004.
Re:I was looking at some laptops today by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 03:30 · Score: 0

The Toshiba Portege M100 has a 12" screen, weighs 0.7 lbs less, and might have a faster processor (1.2 GHz Pentium M vs 800 MHz G4). It also has a 16 mb video card instead of the iBook 32 mb, and it costs $1000 more. Is this what you mean by comparable?
Re:I was looking at some laptops today by AKAImBatman · 2003-10-22 03:43 · Score: 1

> Seriously, what other laptops are better/equivalent ?

The Compaq Armadas (before they cheapened them) were built like their name. They were a bit heavier, but they were tough, had everything built in, and had a nice tactile feel. (You just can't beat the graphite feel of the old Armadas.) Then Compaq changed them to a square, boxy thing that matched every *other* POS on the market.

At that point, I was forced to switch to the VAIOs with Magnesium cases. Small, thin, light, every feature under the sun, and tough enough to use a weapon against a mugger. These days, I'd tell people to go for the Apples. The iBooks are built better than the old Armadas and the PowerBooks simply outclass the VAIO line.

Whatever you do tho, NEVER pay money for a Dell laptop. They've got to have the worst construction I have ever seen in a laptop. Guess that's why they try to sell you the docking station. You're not supposed to carry it anywhere!

--
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
Re:I was looking at some laptops today by squiggleslash · 2003-10-22 03:46 · Score: 1

You know, a 12' screen would be pretty awesome - imagine watching a movie on that. It would pretty much dominate the living room though, and not exactly fit on my lap.
Whatever though, Apple doesn't make such an iBook. It does do a 12" and 14". Both are, sadly, 1024x768, which is my objection - I'd happily use a 1400x1000 10" with OS X, but 1024x768 is just a little too cramped. (And yes, I know much of OS X is scalable. But much of it isn't, and the default font sizes keep popping up.)

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You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
Re:I was looking at some laptops today by buckminster · 2003-10-22 03:48 · Score: 1

The value equation has to include software, and specifically operating system. I believe OSX tips the balance in favor of the iBook.
Re:I was looking at some laptops today by greck · 2003-10-22 04:12 · Score: 1

I've been using 1600x1200 on my desktop since... a really suave Tektronix X terminal I had as a co-op at Cisco in like '95. I've weaseled a way to have it at every job, and I have my very own 21" FD Trinitron at home. When you're programming or doing systems administration, having a huge landscape is a plus.

So when I finally let myself buy a 12" PowerBook a couple of months ago... I started out with the Sony hooked up and an external keyboard and mouse when I was at my desk. I went through the usual novelty period of using both displays, but within a few weeks I noticed that my monitor was sitting there just showing off its wallpaper 99% of the time, and I was doing all my work on the LCD. I turned the monitor off about a month ago, and haven't used it since.

The reasons as I see them, in retrospect:

- Overall ergonomics: My PowerBook is comfortable to use as-is. More parts just make it more complicated. I do continue to use an outboard mouse.

- Display quality: Side-by-side, I think the LCD looks better. I've always liked the precision of LCD, and coupled with well-anti-aliased text, it's my display of choice.

- Tabs: My browser, my instant messenger of choice, and my terminal program all do tabs. For me, they let me organize what I'm doing far better than real estate ever did.

- Transparency: I thought it was going to be another one of those novelty phases... but I very quickly got into the habit of reading the documentation in the browser in the background while working in the transparent terminal above it. It's actually more efficient, I think... no more eyes darting around looking for things, it's all stacked up.

I was specifically looking for a 12" Apple... I wanted something I could throw in my bookbag and take everywhere. I thought I was going to feel cramped on the screen (1024x768? I'm not a peasant!)... but just the opposite, I'm more comfortable on my PowerBook than I have ever been elsewhere. I work on it 8-12 hours a day, and couldn't be happier.

So that's my $0.02--maybe you wouldn't be so unhappy with it, after all. Too bad there's no 2-week test drive option.
Re:I was looking at some laptops today by darkwhite · 2003-10-22 06:53 · Score: 1

WHAT?

Have you actually compared any Thinkpads to other companies' models? Have you held them and worked with them? Have you looked inside them and compared what you saw to the majority of other manufacturers' chassises?

IBM's laptops are designed with more structural integrity clearance built into their chassis and more quality control in their components than the vast majority of other manufacturers. I know, I have seen enough of them. For any structural impact/wear test you can think of, IBM's laptops on average will come out ahead of any competitor.

For the record, I own a T40, and it has the toughest chassis for its dimensions I have ever seen. It's still flimsier than I would like it to be, but it's not even comparable to the competitors. I expect to use it as my main computer for at least 3 more years, and it should sustain multiple drops and other severe conditions in the meantime.

Don't even get me started on their other advantages like component quality and expandability. IBM offers the most advanced integrated laptop line on the market, and the price is right.

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[an error occurred while processing this directive]
Re:I was looking at some laptops today by MoneyT · 2003-10-22 10:50 · Score: 1

To get a delete (i assume you mean forward delete) just hold the fn key when you press delete.

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T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
Re:I was looking at some laptops today by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 12:39 · Score: 0

You sir, are full of shit.
Re:I was looking at some laptops today by SStrungis · 2003-10-22 13:56 · Score: 1

You get what you pay for...
My iBook plays games, movies, runs OSX, OS9, Linux, and Windows 2k in emulation via Virtual PC.
What can your Dell Inspiron do that my Apple can't?
Wait...I know...Catch a virus!
Scott
Re:I was looking at some laptops today by sjb2016 · 2003-10-22 16:21 · Score: 0

I'm happy to report that I will be purchasing a new iBook G4 with a 14" 1024x768 display. I guess I'm too much of a hobbyist to notice that I need more pixels. "Well, have you every used such a cramped screen before?" you may ask. Indeed I have. Currently typing on my Apple Studio display that is 15" at, you guessed it, 1024x768. I have no doubt, unfortunately, that the iBook screen will not be as beautiful to look at as my current monitor, but I will survive. I guess if I was doing a lot of developing or Photoshopping I may be desirous of more pixels, but as a consumer (Mac zealot to be sure, but my work does not require a computer, let alone a Mac) it's an excellent alternative to the 12" Powerbook I was going to buy, but now I can save myself $300. Lettuce keep in mind that the iBooks are for consumers and education, need more pixels, pony up the cash and buy a Powerbook. Am I wrong? No Sam, you're just an asshole.
Re:I was looking at some laptops today by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 16:25 · Score: 0

>> what rock have you been living under? ibooks have run osx since day one... YEARS ago.

The original iBook didn't have enough RAM to run OS X, which is a moot point because OS X wasn't available in July 1999 when the iBook debuted.

The Public Beta of Mac OS X appeared in September 2000, well behind the iBook. Apple didn't start shipping iBooks with Mac OS X pre-installed until May of 2001, and those were the new dual-USB ones.
Re:I was looking at some laptops today by ViolentGreen · 2003-10-23 00:15 · Score: 1

Too bad there's no 2-week test drive option

I really wish there was one. I have never owned any apple system and hacn't used one since those shoebox looking ones with the 5' screen. I am hesitant to buy one without having any real experience with one.

--
Not everything is analogous to cars. Car analogies rarely work.
Re:I was looking at some laptops today by dpa_kork · 2003-10-25 23:01 · Score: 1

just think about what other companies want for their so called sub-notebooks (which, actually, contain 12" screens)... and MHz never counted on apple computers

Dont by AnonymousCowheart · 2003-10-22 01:24 · Score: 5, Informative

dont forget if you are going to order one of these, to get your student discount!
it takes the $1099 12inch ibook down to $949. Hey thats 1/2 an ipod!:)

Re:Dont by tuxedobob · 2003-10-22 01:34 · Score: 0, Redundant

You meant twice an iPod. I hope.
Re:Dont by SlamMan · 2003-10-22 01:37 · Score: 3, Informative

Also there's a pretty nice discount for government employees (federal, state and local).

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Mod point free since 2001
Re:Dont by An+Anonymous+Hero · 2003-10-22 01:52 · Score: 5, Informative

student discount! it takes the $1099 12inch ibook down to $949.
Actually I think it's only a $100 rebate across the board, but the edu store (here, anyway) has an extra $949 moder with only a CD-rom drive, and the RAM downgraded to 128 MB (clearly not enough).
The eMacs were also upgarded -- both models have 1GHz processors now. Specs:
Combo Drive model
1GHz PowerPC G4
128MB SDRAM
40GB Ultra ATA drive
$799.00 ($749 at edu store)
Super Drive model
1GHz PowerPC G4
256MB SDRAM
80GB Ultra ATA drive
$1,099.00 ($999 at edu store)
Re:Dont by Gilmoure · 2003-10-22 02:09 · Score: 4, Informative

Get your RAM elsewhere. Apple about doubles it's RAM prices. I just ordered a bunch of Macs for my college and minimized all the RAM in them. Saved me about $1200 on 30 odd Macs.

Check out datamem.com. Been using them for about 6 years and only had one bad chip. I called them and they next day'd a chip out to me. Didn't even wait for me to return the bad chip.

--
I drank what? -- Socrates
Re:Dont by primalamn · 2003-10-22 02:13 · Score: 1

emacs were not upgraaded, prices were reduced.
Re:Dont by gUmbi · 2003-10-22 02:14 · Score: 1, Funny

I'm not a student you insensitive clod!
Re:Dont by An+Anonymous+Hero · 2003-10-22 02:24 · Score: 1

Yeah, I do this as well -- but here I'm not sure saving $50 by downgrading the built-in RAM from 256 to 128 MB (and losing the combo drive) is such a good deal.
Re:Dont by Gilmoure · 2003-10-22 02:43 · Score: 1

Go for the one with the combo drive and then click on build to order. Set the RAM lower there.

--
I drank what? -- Socrates
Re:Dont by Gorbag · 2003-10-22 02:54 · Score: 3, Funny

I'm an insensitive clod, you insensitive clod!

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-- I speak only for myself
Re:Dont by Jeremy+Erwin · 2003-10-22 03:20 · Score: 2, Interesting

Some macs are equipped with two DIMM slots, a dealer slot and an user accessible slot. Downgrading the RAM may decrease the maximum memory the computer can hold.
Re:Dont by Raunch · 2003-10-22 03:25 · Score: 1

The hardware discounts are nothing to laugh at, but the software discounts are really impressive. I purchased Panther (two more days) for 69.99, when it retails for 129.00.

--
George II -- Spreading Freedom and American values, one bomb at a time.
Re:Dont by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 03:36 · Score: 0

Well, they DID ditch the 800MHz G4 with CD-ROM only model.
Re:Dont by Gilmoure · 2003-10-22 03:52 · Score: 0

Just about all of these Macs have (eMacs, iBooks have 2 RAM slots. Both are accessible by users. Yeah, Apple's shipping 128Mb chip in one but I'm adding a 256MB chip to them for 348Mb for the price of Apple's 256MB. Good deal for me. Now if only there was some way of adding more than 64MB RAM to our PowerMac 6100's. They can't go past OS 9.1.

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I drank what? -- Socrates
Re:Dont by phatlipmojo · 2003-10-22 03:55 · Score: 1

I usually hesitate to ask stupid questions, but I'm going nuts trying to find the Apple Store for non-education state and local govt. employees. Where is it?

--

Nice things are nicer than nasty ones.
Re:Dont by Chad+Page · 2003-10-22 05:05 · Score: 1

If it didn't have a 17" tube in it I'd consider one. I'd much rather have a pizza box eMac for the same price, since I'm an LCD convert who already has a pretty decent 17" and therefore don't want to cough up the extra $ for an iMac 17". That and my apartment already has too much stuff in it.
Re:Dont by BlackBolt · 2003-10-22 05:13 · Score: 2, Funny

Also there's a pretty nice discount for government employees (federal, state and local).
I'm "technically" a federal government employee (for the next 3-5 years with good behavior). I make license plates and package Microsoft products, but I can't find a discount structure that applies to *me*. What should I do? And would it be possible for some kind soul to hide an iBook in a cake and hand-deliver it to me?
Also, I *may* be eligible for the student discount. I'm learning a trade in here, but I can't really give more details.
Re:Dont by mbbac · 2003-10-22 05:27 · Score: 1

Apple's RAM prices in these new iBooks are actually pretty reasonable. It's $50 more for 384MB and $150 more for 640MB total.

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mbbac
Re:Dont by TiMac · 2003-10-22 06:02 · Score: 1

Check your specs. The $949 EDU-only model has only a CD-ROM drive and 128MB. The Combo is $999 with 256 MB....a good $50 to spend IMO.

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Re:Dont by Espectr0 · 2003-10-22 06:38 · Score: 1

I live in south america, and i am a college student, if i go to the US and buy one and bring proof of my college could i get a discount?

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Open Source Java Web Forum with LDAP authentication
Re:Dont by SlamMan · 2003-10-22 06:58 · Score: 1

Got the Apple store, click on the left hand column for "Government" and in there there's a selection for "State & Local Government Employees".

Or go here.

--
Mod point free since 2001
Re:Dont by Jeremy+Erwin · 2003-10-22 07:08 · Score: 2, Interesting

At least one iteration of the iMac G4 (700/800 Mhz) is equipped with both a "logic board slot" and a "user accessible slot". It is possible to upgrade memory in the logic board slot without taking the machine to the dealer, but it will void the warranty.

My dual USB ibook has only one DIMM slot. It also came with 128 Megs soldered onto the logic board.
Re:Dont by JDWTopGuy · 2003-10-22 10:33 · Score: 1

Hahaha! It was a while before I got that one. Very good. :-D

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Ron Paul 2012
Re:Dont by ksheff · 2003-10-22 14:00 · Score: 1

How is that different than any other PC OEM?

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the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
Re:Dont by Demolition · 2003-10-22 15:59 · Score: 1

I didn't see anything in the Apple Store's sales policy to indicate that you wouldn't be able to get a discount from there, but it might be buried in the fine print.

Perhaps the best thing to do is to call 1-800-MY-APPLE and ask.

D.
Re:Dont by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 16:30 · Score: 0

Sorry, the iBook goes to the guy with the most cigarettes...
Re:Dont by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 16:33 · Score: 0

I have a learning disabiltiy (dyslexa), you insentisive clod!!

End of the G3 by An+Anonymous+Hero · 2003-10-22 01:25 · Score: 5, Informative

Didn't see it coming -- saw them on apple.com a few minutes ago, and at the time neither MacRumors nor ThinkSecret had anything. (Macbidouille did, however.)

Just got myself a 12' PowerBook, oh well :-) Today I'd be hard pressed to choose -- one big plus on the PB is the *digital* video out, which lets you attach a Studio display. The new iBooks are discounted $100 at my University's edu store, versus $200 on the PBs. Specs and Euro prices from Macbidouille:

- 12" / 800MHz
PowerPC G4 a 800 MHz
256 Ko de cache N2 (a 800 MHz)
Ecran TFT 12" (1024 x 768)
256 Mo DDR266 / 30 Go
Lecteur combo DVD/CD-RW
ATI Mobility Radeon 9200 (32 Mo VRAM)
1.199 euros

- 14" / 933MHz
PowerPC G4 a 933 MHz
256 Ko de cache N2 (a 933 MHz)
Ecran TFT 14" (1024 x 768)
256 Mo DDR266 / 40 Go
Lecteur combo DVD/CD-RW
ATI Mobility Radeon 9200 (32 Mo VRAM)
1449 euros

- 14" / 1GHz
PowerPC G4 a 1 GHz
256 Ko de cache N2 (a 1 GHz)
Ecran TFT 14" (1024 x 768)
256 Mo DDR266 / 60 Go
Lecteur combo DVD/CD-RW
ATI Mobility Radeon 9200 (32 Mo VRAM)
1699 euros

Re:End of the G3 by Helevius · 2003-10-22 01:52 · Score: 5, Funny

"Just got myself a 12' PowerBook, oh well."

A 12 foot PowerBook? I'd be upset too.

Helevius
Re:End of the G3 by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 02:02 · Score: 0

'Just got myself a 12' PowerBook, oh well :-)'

HOLY CRAP A TWELVE FOOT POWERBOOK! We're all doomed!
Re:End of the G3 by troc · 2003-10-22 02:11 · Score: 5, Funny

The pixels are THIIIIS BIIIG (holds hands wide apart)

Troc

--
Troc's dubious podcast and blog: http://www.trocnet.net
Re:End of the G3 by squiggleslash · 2003-10-22 02:12 · Score: 1

AppleInsider predicted major iBook updates but believed (from the sounds of things not having anything to go on at all) that they'd be based on Gobi.
Who's going to use Gobi? Nintendo? (The Gamecube currently uses a PPC, though I believe it's Yet Another Branch, not one of those Apple chose)

--
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
Re:End of the G3 by ack154 · 2003-10-22 02:19 · Score: 3, Informative

Um, I currently have one of the G3 12" (note: inch) iBooks, and it definitely has a DIGITAL video out. It has a mini-DVI on the side with the other ports. The adapter they gave me is mini-DVI to VGA, but for $20 or so, you can get a mini-DVI to DVI adapter from Apple (the link probably doesn't work though, cause their store sucks when sending links). I don't think I could consider that a "Plus" in the PowerBooks. Now when you talk about light up keyboard and being aluminum... those are pluses in my book. :)
Re:End of the G3 by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 02:33 · Score: 0

Those Mini-DVI to DVI adapters are only for the new (1GHz) 12" PowerBooks. As it clearly states in your link :)
The connection on the iBooks is not a Mini-DVI connector.
Re:End of the G3 by An+Anonymous+Hero · 2003-10-22 02:33 · Score: 2, Informative

Wha? Are you sure it then takes DVI to ADC, which is needed to attach a Studio Display? This page only talks about attaching them to PowerMacs and PoweBooks...

I'm actually interested (my GF has a 12" [okay :-)] G3 with video out, presumably the same as yours, and we might share a display then. But it has to be digital, not go through analog and back like those "industry standard" VGAs.
Re:End of the G3 by ack154 · 2003-10-22 02:39 · Score: 1

So wait... then is my mini-DVI only go to VGA? That would be kind of dumb then, wouldn't it?

My bad on not totally reading the description ;)

Is the one I have a "mini-VGA" then? I thought I saw they had one of those too.

I'm so lost and disappointed now...
Re:End of the G3 by JBv · 2003-10-22 03:41 · Score: 0

What size of shoe is the reference for feet and how mucch is that in centimeters?
Re:End of the G3 by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 03:49 · Score: 1, Funny

who's idea was " and ' anyway? Perhaps we should make use of other interesting symbols on our keyboard:

2 # ago, I was driving with a speed of 60 & along the highway for about 200 `. It is nice to own a car with 300 }. Suddenly i heard a sound which must be over 70 ~ loud. Someone signalled i should slow down or i would get a fine of $ 50.
Re:End of the G3 by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 04:34 · Score: 0

For you and the other retards, a foot is also a unit of measure. It is about 30.48 centimeters.
Re:End of the G3 by bunicula · 2003-10-22 05:00 · Score: 1

how could you be upset? apple is the first to market with a twelve foot display! let's see sony beat that!

comes with a free iCart to haul it around on.
Re:End of the G3 by Predius · 2003-10-22 08:22 · Score: 1

A DVI plug does not mean DIGITAL. DVI connectors have both analog and digital signal pins on them. Most LCDs can use either as a source. So unless you have an LCD that will tell you it's running off the digital side, or can ONLY accept digital on a DVI cable, you don't know which you are running.
Re:End of the G3 by McAddress · 2003-10-22 11:46 · Score: 1

A 12 foot PowerBook? I'd be upset too.
i use metric, you insensitive clod!
Re:End of the G3 by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 12:20 · Score: 0

You've got a Mini-VGA.

The Mini-DVI is ONLY on the 1 GHz 12" PowerBook.

HTH
Re:End of the G3 by Nexx · 2003-10-22 13:37 · Score: 1

a 12 meter powerbook? Mon dieu!
Re:End of the G3 by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 20:44 · Score: 0

You're talking out your ass cunt.

Necessary Move by JamesP · 2003-10-22 01:25 · Score: 0

Kudos for Apple... This is a necessary move for Apple to reclaim some market share.

Of course G4 is a very nice processor, but since it was not available in mobile devices, people went for Intel solutions.

Again Kudos for Apple, and we are waiting the mobile G5...

--
how long until /. fixes commenting on Chrome?

Re:Necessary Move by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 01:34 · Score: 0

What are you talkiing about?
G4 has been available in mobile systems for years, just not in apple's bottom of the line system.
Re:Necessary Move by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 01:34 · Score: 0

Huh? The G4 has been available in the powerbook line for ages... Or are you referring solely to the "consumer" line of portables?
Re:Necessary Move by JamesP · 2003-10-22 01:37 · Score: 1

I meant affordable systems...

--
how long until /. fixes commenting on Chrome?
Re:Necessary Move by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 01:45 · Score: 5, Interesting

This is a necessary move for Apple to reclaim some market share.

I'm only going to say this once.

Nobody gives a damn about Apple's share of the entire computer market. Does anybody care about Mercedes's share of the entire automotive industry? Of course not.

Apple, like any company, has target market segments. First-time home computer buyers in upper-middle-income brackets; first-time laptop buyers in same; students; teachers; creative professionals; science and technical users. Among these market segments, Apple's share is just fine, thanks.

Apple doesn't sell well to people who already own computers and who make under $75,000 per year per household. So freakin' what? That's not their target market. Just like Mercedes doesn't sell well to single people under the age of 25.

Now that you've been educated, kindly slink back under your bridge, you troll.
Re:Necessary Move by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 01:57 · Score: 0

Oh BS. People won't switch between Mac and wintel solutions just because of the G4/G3 issue on an ibook.
Re:Necessary Move by b17bmbr · 2003-10-22 04:13 · Score: 5, Insightful

this is a great point. for one, apple could never substantially increase their share without dramatically changing their structure. i was an econ major, not business, but i know a a little about vert/horiz integration and economic scalability. apple is a "niche" player. to be able to compete with the dell $799 un-inspiron or the best buy special o' the week, they would have to cut back on what makes them a "mac". then they are not different, and they cannot compete, because they can't scale that high. so, they are better off being where they are. if they change, they don't compete, they die. great point.

--
My problem? I was perfectly gruntled, until some numbnuts came by and dissed me.
Re:Necessary Move by renoX · 2003-10-22 04:29 · Score: 1

>Does anybody care about Mercedes's share of the entire automotive industry? Of course not.

Your analogy is flawed: you don't use a car to run software, whereas a computer is useless if you cannot run on it the software you want.
Re:Necessary Move by dasmegabyte · 2003-10-22 04:31 · Score: 2, Insightful

Uh, i think you're right but your perception of Apple's segment is all wrong. First time users are NOT apple's market anymore. First time users have been buying "whatever's cheapest" for the past few years.

Apple's market is now experienced computer users who find that the Windows world has failed them and the Linux world still takes too much effort. It is people who want to USE computers and are tired of FIXING them. This includes many students and artists and lawyers and writers and scientists whose first priority is not securing and optimizing their computer's environment.

--
Hey freaks: now you're ju
Re:Necessary Move by fr0dicus · 2003-10-22 04:45 · Score: 1

Apple's market is now experienced computer users who find that the Windows world has failed them and the Linux world still takes too much effort.
I wouldn't say Linux was too much effort, just that it's not as good as OS X.
:-)
Re:Necessary Move by jargoone · 2003-10-22 05:16 · Score: 1

Wrong. Apple cares about their market share. It's a company. They exist to make money. Make no mistake: if they could have the market share Microsoft does, they'd take it in a second.
Re:Necessary Move by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 05:27 · Score: 0

First time users are NOT apple's market anymore.

You know, the thing about sentences that's funny is this: every word is important.

First-time computer buyers in a particular demographic segment are Apple's bread and butter.

Just look at the neighborhoods where Apple has decided to put retail stores, and you'll see this at work.

Apple's market is now experienced computer users who find that the Windows world has failed them and the Linux world still takes too much effort.

That's part of it, yeah, but not a big part. Apple's core business is still the "digital hub." The Macintosh (mostly the iMac) is a digital lifestyle device, and that's where the lion's share of Apple's sales and marketing is.
Re:Necessary Move by Ohreally_factor · 2003-10-22 06:36 · Score: 1

Which is why x86 computers are useless to me.

--
It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
Re:Necessary Move by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 06:47 · Score: 0

Let's see... on a Mac you can run Mac OS X software (obviously), Mac OS software (either PowerPC or 68K, through Classic), Windows software (or any other IA-32 software, through Virtual PC), BSD software (through Ports), and virtually all POSIX software through a process no more complex than that required to run the same software on, say, Linux.

Sounds to me like a Mac can literally run any software that any personal computer can run.

All other personal computers, therefore, are useless.
Re:Necessary Move by dasmegabyte · 2003-10-22 07:02 · Score: 2, Informative

I am in one of the neighbourhoods where Apple has one of their stores. Speaking solely from the experience of spending way too much time hanging out at said store and drooling over the keypads, you're dead wrong about it being a first-time buyer's solution. The most common thing overheard when people are using the GUI is "that's so much better than Windows." Not "that's so easily done, this is my only frame of reference."

And you're dead right about the digital hub being part of the allure. They have each type of device you can use for sale on a freaking pedestal. I have definitely seen a lot of Camedias and Palms and iPods sold as accessories alongside PCs. But few of the purchasers are computer virgins.

--
Hey freaks: now you're ju
Re:Necessary Move by jafac · 2003-10-22 07:17 · Score: 1

apparently, mercedes DOES care, because they bought Chrysler. Why else would they buy friggin Chrysler?

--

These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Re:Necessary Move by 33degrees · 2003-10-22 07:46 · Score: 1

Moreover, the rest of the market is dominated by companies that move a lot of poduct but make a very small profit on each one. Trying to compete in that space is incredibly difficult, as margins are so low it's hard to differentiate your product. In what way is a Dell better than a Gateway or whatever? They're essentially the same exact thing, the only reason people would choose one over the other is brand awareness.

Apple would rather sell fewer computers at more of a profit to people who are willing to pay more for quality, and they're doing just fine.
Re:Necessary Move by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 08:09 · Score: 0

Speaking solely from the experience of spending way too much time hanging out at said store and drooling over the keypads, you're dead wrong about it being a first-time buyer's solution.

You're kidding, right? You've hung out in an Apple Store, so you think you understand their business plan?

Wow. That's not even arrogance any more. That's... I don't know what the hell that is. That's out there. That's some wild, wild stuff.
Re:Necessary Move by awl · 2003-10-22 09:35 · Score: 1

Ermmm, Apple are a computer hardware manufacturer. Microsoft's share of this market is ~= 0% (as it includes only mice and keyboards). Apple's share is considerably higher than Microsoft's ;-)

If you are looking at the OS market, then you are right, Apple would love to be the dominant player, but only because of all the extra hardware they would sell ;-)

I don't believe Apple would have a chance of getting to be the majority OS vendor in the x86 computer market, because firstly they don't currently have the resources to be able to maintain their software quality on the huge mess that is the x86 platform, and secondly, if they went for that market Microsoft would just refuse to license Windows to manufacturers that installed Apple's OS on their machines, so there is no path to market.

Of course, that's a circular argument - if Apple had licensed their OS before Windows existed (which they probably had the opportunity to do), then they would likely be the majority OS vendor now. At the time, though, there wasn't an established business model for bing able to make money from an OS in existence. One of Microsoft's biggest innovations was coming up with a way (albeit unethical and illegal) to make money in this market.
Re:Necessary Move by HoneyBunchesOfGoats · 2003-10-22 11:46 · Score: 1

Does anybody care about Mercedes's share of the entire automotive industry?

I think Mercedes does...
Re:Necessary Move by dasmegabyte · 2003-10-22 15:09 · Score: 1

Young wiseass! One need not spend every waking moment in the wallow to know that it is MUD for PIGS. I say to you, do you need even FIVE MINUTES in a Wal-mart to figure out that their business plan is selling shitty goods for less money to people who don't care about quality?

It is the exact opposite situation with Apple. And if you think a person can't see that by SHOPPING AT THEIR STORE, you are what the Belgians call a "fucking idiot."

--
Hey freaks: now you're ju
Re:Necessary Move by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 16:50 · Score: 0

Your post didn't make a single bit of sense. Furthermore, you failed to respond to the assertion that hanging around an Apple Store does not qualify you to speak intelligently about Apple's business plan.

Non-responsive. You lose.

Next!
Re:Necessary Move by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 20:01 · Score: 0

Apple tried the "emulate the PC biz" strategy once and promptly lost $700 million dollars.

It was Michael Swindler's...I mean Spindler's mindstorm, as far as I can tell: make piece of shit Macs can compete with even the crappiest home-built PeeCees in terms of industrial design, reliability, and overall engineering finesse; then follow the lead of Compaq and load them with shitty software that can't run on the computer with just it's built in memory; then make them slower than a sixteen year old golden retrieve you've shot with a tranquilizer gun; then install an OS on them that no one bothered to finish writing, let alone started testing; then to save more money make sure that is little meaningful expansion capability (but, strangely, decide to use all proprietary internal expansion connectors...); then bundle them with monitors that are every bit as bad as those found with most budget Windows machines; and finally charge about what you'd expect to pay for a mid-range PeeCee.

Oddly, it didn't work out too well. Go figure.

NOTE: Apple's professional machines of this era were actually quite good (albeit expensive), were highly upgradable, and many are still in use today running G4 processors in place of their original 604s.

Powerbook premium by wazzzup · 2003-10-22 01:26 · Score: 3, Interesting

If pices are the same, why would I pay the premium for a Powerbook? Obviously, with the 17", the screen of course, but for the 12" and 15" I'm not sure if a $500+ markup is worth it.

Re:Powerbook premium by gsdali · 2003-10-22 01:36 · Score: 5, Informative

remember 15" widescreen is not the same as 14" at 4:3 ration, but you are quite right regarding the premium.
Re:Powerbook premium by jhatch · 2003-10-22 01:36 · Score: 5, Informative

Here's why the 12" powerbook is more expensive and why someone might choose it over the 12" iBook: BTO SuperDrive bigger hard drive faster processor higher maximum RAM bigger L2 cache slightly lighter extended desktop video (rather than simple mirroring) DVI port rather than VGA port If those are features you want/need, then the markup would be worth it. But the new iBooks are clearly very attractive and well-priced alternatives.
Re:Powerbook premium by Jesrad · 2003-10-22 01:36 · Score: 1

PowerBooks are not THAT far apart, price-wise, but they get Video-Out (Mirror and Extended Desktop modes supported) and Sound-In, which iBooks don't have.

--
Maybe we deserve this world ?
Re:Powerbook premium by marnerd · 2003-10-22 01:38 · Score: 2, Informative

SuperDrive is only available on the Powerbooks, plus dual monitor support instead of just mirroring. My wife cares about the first feature, I care about the second, so I guess we are saving our pennies a bit longer.

--
Not so much a sig as a lack of one.
Re:Powerbook premium by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 01:49 · Score: 2, Insightful

DVI out, Gigabit Ethernet, FireWire 800, SuperDrive. Plus, you know, the PowerBook is faster.
Re:Powerbook premium by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 01:55 · Score: 0

You can have dual monitor support on G3 iBooks with just a little bit of firmware hacking. Type, type. Do 30 seconds of googling. It probably works with the new g4 iBooks too.
Re:Powerbook premium by EricWright · 2003-10-22 01:58 · Score: 4, Informative

The PB line has:

Availability of superdrive
Max 1.25 GB RAM, compared to 640 MB on ibook
Built-in bluetooth
512 K L2 cache, compared to 256 K for ibook
Mini-DVI out, not Mini-SVGA out
Allows for monitor spanning, not just mirroring

The 15" and 17" models also have gigabit ethernet, FW800, widescreen aspect ratio, and backlit keyboards...

Of course, it's up to you to decide if these features are worth it or not.
Re:Powerbook premium by log0n · 2003-10-22 01:59 · Score: 1

Unless they've done something drastically different to their 'video mirroring', it's also an extended desktop. I've got a 1ghz 17" iMac that is only supposed to do mirroring, yet allows extended desktop. Same thing with my gf's 15" TI Powerbook which was also labeled as mirroring.

I imagine it's a small fubar like the Superdrive allowing DVD-RW, but it's only labeled as DVD-R. :o?
Re:Powerbook premium by bpbond · 2003-10-22 02:07 · Score: 1

Higher resolution, Firewire 800, more memory, and ability to burn DVDs are the reasons I'd pay more for a PB...but I agree that the 12" PB in particular becomes hard to justify, unless you REALLY need one of those features and REALLY need the 12" form factor.

--
"Science is a tribute to what we can know although we are fallible" -Jacob Bronowski
Re:Powerbook premium by hype7 · 2003-10-22 02:24 · Score: 1

the premium, IMO, is especially justified for the 14 ibook vs the 15 PB. You get gigabit ethernet, widescreen, the fastest graphics card available in a laptop, backlit keyboard, faster CPU, more standard RAM/HD, Firewire 2, proper digital video (read: DVI) output and greater expandability.

The difference between the 12 ibooks and PBs are less, but then so too is the price. Key differentials are the better graphics card and the mini-DVI output.

It was only yesterday people were saying "why would you buy an iBook when you get get the extra grunt from the PBs for so little extra $$$?" How quickly things change.

Oh, and finally, RIP the G3 processor. You took us out in front of the Pentiums, until the G4 scarred your legacy.

-- james
Re:Powerbook premium by lysander · 2003-10-22 02:25 · Score: 1

The newest 15" and 17" pbooks support up to 2GB of RAM.

--
GET YOUR WEAPONS READY! --DR.LIGHT
Re:Powerbook premium by uunh+haun · 2003-10-22 02:29 · Score: 2, Informative

ibook doesn't do extended desktop, but you can apply a hack that will allow it to. The titanium powerbooks have always been able to do extended desktop, so you must be reading the specs wrong.
Re:Powerbook premium by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 02:49 · Score: 0

Powerbook has
Faster Video
DVI Out
PC Card
More RAM capabilities
Faster CPU
Faster Cache

Those reasons are enough for me to buy a Powerbook over an iBook
Re:Powerbook premium by CynicTheHedgehog · 2003-10-22 02:51 · Score: 1

G5 Powerbooks soon, perhaps?
Re:Powerbook premium by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 02:51 · Score: 0

oh, and you cant get a superdrive with an iBook
Re:Powerbook premium by kalidasa · 2003-10-22 02:54 · Score: 2, Informative

And the hack doesn't work with the 1st generation of white dual usb firewire iBooks (the 2001 version), only the later ones: different video card.
Re:Powerbook premium by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 03:08 · Score: 0

no fucking sound-in on an iBook? That's a fucking rip off.
Re:Powerbook premium by mirko · 2003-10-22 03:56 · Score: 1

167MHz bus ?

--
Trolling using another account since 2005.
Re:Powerbook premium by Mr+Pippin · 2003-10-22 04:02 · Score: 1

Keep in mind that the Powerbook has a better graphics chip and higher resolution display.

That may not matter to many, but it matters to me.
Re:Powerbook premium by OS24Ever · 2003-10-22 04:13 · Score: 1

Because you bought the Powerbook G4 12" in March.

--
As a rock-in-roll Physicist once said, No matter where you go, there you are.
Re:Powerbook premium by daviddennis · 2003-10-22 04:19 · Score: 2, Interesting

The 12" PowerBook looks like an endangered species. I can defend the 15" model because it has the wonderful large screen, but the 12" PowerBook screen is identical to the iBook screen. This was always a bit of a disappointment to me since the iBook screen is a distinctly inferior piece of work compared to the gorgeous screen they use on the 15".

The specifications of the 14" iBook is superior in every respect (speed, drives, etc) to the 12" PowerBook, and it's $100 cheaper. I think it's a pity they didn't speed up the 12" PowerBook, but perhaps there are problems with the faster and therefore hotter processor in such a small case.

My biggest disappointment in this new range is that they didn't leave in a $999 machine. I think they should have kept one G3 machine at $899 for the cheap charlies among us.
Re:Powerbook premium by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 04:25 · Score: 0

The 15" and 17" models also have a PC Card slot.
Re:Powerbook premium by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 04:42 · Score: 0

The new iBooks don't have built in bluetooth, only as a USB addon.
Re:Powerbook premium by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 04:44 · Score: 0

I don't believe bluetooth is built in. It appears to be a USB addon. They never specifically say it's built-in.
Re:Powerbook premium by jtrascap · 2003-10-22 06:04 · Score: 2, Interesting

Yeah - 1099 for a laptop is a deal-breaker.

Especially since it comes with a DVD/CD-RW drive, 1 FireWire & 2 USB 2.0 ports, 30GB drive, decent 32MB video ram, 10/100 & modem all built-in.

So - were you just looking to troll, or were you actually trying to make some kind of informed point?
Re:Powerbook premium by daviddennis · 2003-10-22 06:11 · Score: 1

I happen to own a PowerBook G4 1ghz that cost $3,000, so this is not about me.

This is about the symbolic meaning of having a product "Less than $1,000" in a cutthroat market. It's important to have something in that price range because it subliminally makes the whole range look cheaper.

That was my point.

D
Re:Powerbook premium by raju1kabir · 2003-10-22 06:28 · Score: 1

Allows for monitor spanning, not just mirroring

Does anyone know what the resolution is of an external monitor connected to one of these?

I'd love to get the 12" Powerbook but ONLY if I can connect my 19" monitor when at home and get at least 1280x1024. Otherwise I'm sticking with the clunky old desktop; screen real estate is more important than speed to me.

--
"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
Re:Powerbook premium by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 06:32 · Score: 0

I have a PB 12in and a 17in LCD. I get plug n play mirroring with 1024x768 on my PB and 1280x1024 on my LCD screen. It sure was easier to set up than xinerama was. In fact, it can't get easier than this :

- power up your external screen
- plug it in your powerbook (using adapter provided)
- enjoy!
Re:Powerbook premium by djwu · 2003-10-22 06:33 · Score: 1

I just bought a 15" powerbook 1.25 Ghz. It cost me $2545. I figure that I paid about $200+ premium over the top 14" ($1499). If you take the 14" and add the specs to it to match the 15" I figure it would cost $830 more. Some numbers were taken from the BTO on Apple Store. Other numbers were guessed.

- 15" screen vs. 14" : $100 more (guess)
- ATI 9600 vs. 9200: $50 more (guess)
- FW800 vs. no FW800: $35 (guess)
- Backlighted keyboard: $70 (comparing the 2 15" PB)
- DVI: $25 (guess)
- 1.25 Ghz vs. 1 Ghz: $75 (guess)
- 512 L2 cache vs. 256: $25 (guess)
- 80 GB HD vs. 60 GB: $75 (comparing the 2 15" PB)
- Airport Extreme built in: $100 (comparing the 2 15" PB)
- Bluetooth: $25(guess)
- Superdrive vs. Combo: $200 (comparing the 2 15" PB)
- 512 RAM vs 256 RAM: $50 (dealram)

total guesstimate difference: $830 more ...

$1500 + 830 = $2330 ... about right?
Re:Powerbook premium by Espectr0 · 2003-10-22 06:42 · Score: 1

basically the powerbook is more expensive because it has twice the L2 cache of the imac. Remember how fast and important the L2 cache is.

--
Open Source Java Web Forum with LDAP authentication
Re:Powerbook premium by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 06:46 · Score: 0

On the PowerBooks, the bluetooth is builtin. Interestingly, System Profiler shows that it's hooked into the system via USB. But it's all internal.
Re:Powerbook premium by fafaforza · 2003-10-22 06:56 · Score: 1

With the 12" powerbook, you wouldn't get all that much more than a comparable iBook. But the 15 and 17" PBs have a vastly better LCD.

The iBooks LCDs are comparable to crappy XGA ones you would find on cheap Dells. My 15" PowerBook's LCD is incredible.

That's just from experience though. I never bothered looking up who actually manufactures them, or which technology they use.

And for me, the LCD is very important. Afterall, one stares at it all day.
Re:Powerbook premium by awl · 2003-10-22 09:44 · Score: 2, Informative

On the powerbook you can concurrently have different resolutions on the built in display and the external monitor. I'm typing this right now on a 12" power book with an external 17" display with the internal screen at 1024x768 and the external screen at 1280 x 1024. I've had an external display running at 1600 x 1200 as well, but it was only a 17" screen, and it was doing my eyes in...
Re:Powerbook premium by Onan · 2003-10-22 11:40 · Score: 1

From http://www.apple.com/powerbook/specs.html :

Dual display and video mirroring: Simultaneously supports up to 1024 by 768 pixels on the built-in display and up to 2048 by 1536 pixels on an external display, both at millions of colors
Re:Powerbook premium by bdsesq · 2003-10-22 11:49 · Score: 1

The 12" PowerBook looks like an endangered species.

It is only endangered until the 12" G5 comes out
Re:Powerbook premium by Large+Green+Mallard · 2003-10-22 12:01 · Score: 1

The original two white ibook revisions only have 8MB video. 4MB per screen does not a happy mac make :)
Re:Powerbook premium by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 12:23 · Score: 0

Yes, you need a Radeon, which first appeared on the iBooks in May 2002.

HTH
Re:Powerbook premium by jtrascap · 2003-10-22 19:45 · Score: 1

And my point was that it was close enough to $1000 to count. Apple isn't going to play the priceline game, and as an intelligent consumer I wouldn't either.

I want to know what I spend my money on, and when I start to compare features, I think most consumers will say "Hmm!"

Apple has never been a mass-market mentality computer - why should it price itself that way?
Re:Powerbook premium by dhuff · 2003-10-23 00:50 · Score: 1

I was wondering if this difference in LCD quality was still the case with the new iBooks. A crappy, dim LCD would be a deal-breaker for me...
Re:Powerbook premium by yellowjacket03 · 2003-10-23 18:33 · Score: 1

They just refreshed the Powerbook line not even a month ago, so probably not for awhile.

G5 to powerbooks by muyuubyou · 2003-10-22 01:26 · Score: 0

...looks like the next step. You have to justify the price gap somehow.

Re:G5 to powerbooks by Ianoo · 2003-10-22 01:43 · Score: 1

Unlikely with the current G5s because they produce too much heat. If the chip fab moves to a smaller process then maybe.
Re:G5 to powerbooks by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 02:12 · Score: 0

Who said they produce too much heat? Oh, you mean those jumbo heatsinks? Ever consider those may be there to aid in convection cooling? There are lots of fans, but they're slow and move a low volume of air. Those jumbos are most likely to help them run quieter, not necessarily cooler (they could have just made them smaller and increased the volume from the fans).
As I've seen a few places (sorry, no links - Google for them): the G5 chips can go into a PB model; they're waiting on a controller chip.
Re:G5 to powerbooks by Ianoo · 2003-10-22 03:52 · Score: 1

If this is true, then I'll save my money a little longer and hold out for a G5 rather than a G4 PowerBook. I had just heard some bad reports about its thermals in a couple of places. That said, a few weeks back people were claiming you'd never be able to put the G5 in an Xserve, but it looks like they've done it...
Re:G5 to powerbooks by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 05:20 · Score: 0

I want a G5 Powerbook very much. Though I would miss saying, "The Titanium".
Re:G5 to powerbooks by MoneyT · 2003-10-22 11:09 · Score: 1

I'd figure on waiting a year or so before you see G5 Powerbooks. For one, the iBooks would need to up their specs to roughly equivelent (or a shade more) than the current G4 powerbook offerings (figure at least 6 months till the next iBook update), and if they don't get there with one update, you'll need to wait till the second update in another 6 months. And the G4 powerbooks will still have to go through two more upgrade cycles (one sometime next feb and then another about six months later).

Finaly, they still need to work on adjusting the heat dissapation. If the ammount of effort and concentration on cooling the G5 towers is any indication, you're going to see a new case design for the powerbooks with the G5s

--
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984

Damn by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 01:31 · Score: 0

I've had a G3 iBook for about a month now. Anybody know what kind of things I'll have missed out on? Is it just performance, and if so, what kind of difference will there be?

Re:Damn by otis+wildflower · 2003-10-22 01:35 · Score: 1

Altivec and lap warming?

I like the aluminum case better, but that's a subjective decision...

I doubt this will be the end of the G3 by gsdali · 2003-10-22 01:31 · Score: 3, Informative

The next IBM 750 series of processors will have faster main cores and Altivec extensions so G3s will be back even if they don't get called G3s by apple. What is a G3 with altivec if not a G4 (ish, sort of).

I will interested to see how this will affect lower end powerbook sales.

Re:I doubt this will be the end of the G3 by vonFinkelstien · 2003-10-22 01:42 · Score: 1

Now they will have to call the Gobi with AltiVec a G4.
Re:I doubt this will be the end of the G3 by Daniel+Dvorkin · 2003-10-22 01:42 · Score: 2, Insightful

I'm wondering if that's actually what these G4's are. "G4" is really a marketing term, not a designation for a single chip; and I remember the "Road Warrior" guy on MacOpinion predicting a few months ago that Apple would eventually stick IBM's 750+Altivec chip inside an iBook and call it a G4. Is it possible that this has already happened? IBM and Apple are both pretty good at keeping their mouths shut these days.

--
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
Re:I doubt this will be the end of the G3 by gsdali · 2003-10-22 01:45 · Score: 1

To be fair I can't find anything on Apple's site that says these processors are IBM or Motorola.
Re:I doubt this will be the end of the G3 by javaxman · 2003-10-22 07:12 · Score: 1

There is a lot of speculation about what chip is really in these machines, since the cache size is different from the PowerBook line, which *does* use the Motorola "G4".

The IBM chips are fast ( if not faster ), cheaper, and since they include and Altivec unit, the G3/G4 distinction is more than a little blurry where the "G3" IBM chips are compared to "G4" Motorola chips.

Which speaks volumes about Motorola. Too bad, it was once a good company...

Interestingly enough, I just noticed a post which states as fact that this is the IBM chip. Too bad there's no reference to back up that claim. I wonder if it's true.

G4 heat issues? 12" model only 800MHz by johnpaul191 · 2003-10-22 01:31 · Score: 1

the one standard 12inch model is 800MHZ and the two 14inch models are 933MHz and 1GHz....... i wonder if it's a heat issue of the G4, or if they are trying to make the 12inch an entry model? Personally if i bought one i would go for 12inch just because of the portability factor. The slower processor makes me wonder though. I guess we will have to wait to see what actual G4 chip they have? That being said they seem like a decent upgrade and stay in the same price brackets. This seems to blur the line between 12inch ibook and powerbook even more.......

Re:G4 heat issues? 12" model only 800MHz by Ancient+Devices+King · 2003-10-22 10:47 · Score: 1

I doubt it's a heat issue, considering the 12" powerbook runs faster than that. Probably just making it entry level (as you said).

--
-"It seems like you're trying to exploit a security hole. Would you like help?"
Re:G4 heat issues? 12" model only 800MHz by Leica · 2003-10-24 07:28 · Score: 1

Does the 12" Powerbook have a fan? Evidently my 900MHz G3 iBook does not (although this is subject to much conjecture among those of us unwilling to violate waranty by opening it up to find out). If there is indeed no fan in the latest G3 iBooks, then maybe there isn't one in the G4 iBook, either. This could explain the 800MHz cap on the processor. My G3 sure gets toasty at times.

Death to Gobi? by dafz1 · 2003-10-22 01:32 · Score: 1

I guess the kills any speculation of Apple using a G3 with Alti-Vec.

Prediction: OS 10.5 will not support G3s(will require Alti-Vec). Also, a Powerbook G5 is less than one year away(maybe even MacWorld SF).

Re:Death to Gobi? by Jesrad · 2003-10-22 01:43 · Score: 1

The G3 will likely be continued, for embedded and video systems (Cube consoles use them, I think).

Apple is visibly trying its hardest to get G5 processors in their laptops. They cannot depend on Motorola anymore, and should they stop getting G4s from them for whatever reason, it would seriously damage their sales, and their credibility in the enterprise market.

What could possibly happen once Motorola sells off its microprocessors division ? Or when / if the lawsuit filed by Apple against Mot' over breachs of contract goes to court ?

--
Maybe we deserve this world ?
Re:Death to Gobi? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 01:47 · Score: 0

Interesting. AppleInsider was strongly hinting at the Gobi earlier this month, so were they that far off? Or is this the much rumored (but highly unlikely, IMO) IBM Gobi with AltiVec grafted on? I guess we'll know as soon as someone can get their hands on one and see what CPU model it really is.
Re:Death to Gobi? by GeorgeH · 2003-10-22 02:02 · Score: 1

According to this comment this is just a G3 with Alti-Vec. So it kills any speculation in the sense that the Babel fish proves that God doesn't exist.

--
Why can't I moderate something "Wrong" or at least "Grossly Misinformed"?
Re:Death to Gobi? by kalidasa · 2003-10-22 04:12 · Score: 1

But the comment is wrong. It's not a G3 with Altivec. Sure, that's what everyone expected, but it didn't happen: this is a real honest-to-god Motorola processor.
Re:Death to Gobi? by gsdali · 2003-10-22 21:37 · Score: 1

Motorola selling off its microprocessor division may cause the new company to focus on PowerPC again. It's a very good processor and although Apple is the only major customer there is no reason why it couldn't develop the chip and aim it at 'Media Centre' devices, Linux workstations or even try to rebuild the relationship with Apple. Competition between strong suppliers would be very healthy for Apple; look what happened when Motorola went off the boil just recently.

Not snow white anymore... by nordicfrost · 2003-10-22 01:33 · Score: 1

Too bad. I really liked the all-white design, it made all the difference from the gray mass.

Oh well, off to buy one I guess.

Re:Not snow white anymore... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 01:45 · Score: 0

Eh?? Maybe my monitor's too bright this early in the morning, but it looks just as white as ever in the pictures. Am I going blind?
Re:Not snow white anymore... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 02:14 · Score: 0

It's always been two-toned, white with the same grey coloring as the Titanium Powerbook (the ring around the outside).
Re:Not snow white anymore... by squiggleslash · 2003-10-22 02:21 · Score: 1

An AC writes (1 reply below your current threshhold)
Eh?? Maybe my monitor's too bright this early in the morning, but it looks just as white as ever in the pictures. Am I going blind?
If you take a look you'll see that they're whitish, but certainly not snow-white. The above picture shows that the base, for example, is a brighter shade than the rest of the machine which is a sort of very light gray, or possibly silver (not easy to tell in the photo.)
You know, this machine looks really nice. If I hadn't bought a notebook a few months ago, this is probably the Mac notebook (the 12" model, 14" is too big) I'd have gotten.

--
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
Re:Not snow white anymore... by ack154 · 2003-10-22 02:29 · Score: 1

Looks to be the same color scheme as before. My G3 powerbook is grey on the inside, around the display, around the keyboard, etc. But the top and bottom (battery too) are all white. The white looks strange in the photos cause it's kind of like a big plastic layer around it... Looks like the same white though...

As long as the Apple on the lid still lights up, that's all that matters, right?
Re:Not snow white anymore... by Ignominious+Cow+Herd · 2003-10-22 03:22 · Score: 1

Don't know what you mean. It looks just like the one I'm holding. (original white dual usb 500)

White on top and bottom, Silver (Magnesium frame) around the middle.

--
Lump lingered last in line for brains, and the ones she got were sorta rotten and insane.
Re:Not snow white anymore... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 04:52 · Score: 0

The last generation of G3 iBooks was actually all white all the way through - no silver wrist rests, touchpad and button, it was this godawful white white white. It hurt my eyes when I saw it at CompUSA. Also they changed from using a clear plastic painted white on the inside (which is delicious looking) to an actually white plastic (which is cheap looking) for the outside shell. Suddenly all the subtle depth and graduation and sleekness is gone and it's just this big white blob. Eugh. (Christ, I'm sounding like a stereotypical apple using artfruit. I'm a _programmer_ fer chrissakes..)

Now whether or not that was just the $999 cheap iBook or all of them, I can't say - CompUSA's "rep" wasn't very informative, but if the new ones went back to the white/silver color scheme, I'm already plotting to get one.
Re:Not snow white anymore... by ndpatel · 2003-10-22 07:28 · Score: 1

i have the same 500mhz machine, but later revs eliminated the silver part 'round the middle and replaced it with a cool rubberized white plastic. apple called this 'opaque white'; the replacement battery i bought for my machine is different than the old one (a solid piece of white plastic instead of clear plastic over paint).

--
london is drowning and i live by river

I want to cry by trust_no_one · 2003-10-22 01:34 · Score: 1

Having bought a 900 Mhz G3 iBook just after they came out, I am moved to tears to see the G4 iBooks now. Of course, my g/f has been wanting one, so maybe I'll just buy myself a G4 and give her the G3.

As for the practical, nice to see USB 2.0 and Airport Extreme on the iBook. Still maxes out at only 640 MB of RAM though. Also only 256K L2 cache seems like it will hurt performance. The Powerbooks have 512K. I guess they had to come up with some ways to justify the higher cost of the 12" PB. That and if you want a Superdrive or built in bluetooth, you need to buy a PB.

Guess I'll wait to see some benchmarks on this, but my guess is we'll become a 2 iBook household before too long. (Should probably save up for 2 iPods too.)

--
I'm not an actor, but I play one on tv.

Re:I want to cry by loosifer · 2003-10-22 01:50 · Score: 1

That and if you want a Superdrive or built in bluetooth, you need to buy a PB.
The new iBooks include builtin Bluetooth as a BTO option, which means I'll probably go ahead and spring for one of these.
Re:I want to cry by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 01:57 · Score: 0

I guess they had to come up with some ways to justify the higher cost of the 12" PB.

Your understanding of economics and business is flawed.

It costs X to build and deliver a product. The more features that product has, the higher the value of X.

Take X and multiply it by some number Y and you come up with the street price of the product. The difference between X and X*Y is the profit margin. It's normally around 30%, though sometimes much lower.

The reason the iBook doesn't have a big cache, lots of RAM, or a SuperDrive is because Apple had a target price in mind for X*Y. That target price was $999. With the bare minimum feature set, they couldn't make that target. They had to go with $1,099. (Stupid LCD prices.)

The price is set by the features, and the features are selected to match a target price. Got it?

That and if you want a Superdrive or built in bluetooth, you need to buy a PB.

Bluetooth is available as a BTO option.
Re:I want to cry by Maxwell309 · 2003-10-22 03:55 · Score: 1

I thought bluetooth was dead...long live bluetooth

--
"DRM is like violence: if it doesn't work, use more."

Why is this news? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 01:35 · Score: 0, Insightful

I thought it was a given thing that computers tend to get faster CPUs as time goes on. Yes it's nice that Apple are making faster machines, but what's the big deal about upgrading a machine with a CPU that's readily available in other machines?

It's not surprising or anything, just something that would happen sooner or later. I bet it got a bigger hard drive too...

Re:Why is this news? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 01:41 · Score: 2, Interesting

The reason this is slashdot front-page material is that they moved from g3 to g4. Historically this is a biggish thing.

Basically the difference between g3 and g4 is so great that this is a big deal. Up until now, the question has been, do you go with the iBooks and save a bunch of money, but suffer; or spend a "premium" and get the leaps-ahead g4. This has been one of the biggest problems with recommending a mac laptop to someone-- they couldn't get an acceptable processor at a cheap price.

Now even Apple's bargain-basement laptops have the vastly superior g4.

This is also significant because if I am not TOTALLY confused, this means that the g3 is no longer being used in any products whatsoever anywhere. It is dead. Salute. The retiring of an entire chip line is perhaps somewhat significant on a geek site.
Re:Why is this news? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 03:56 · Score: 0

Ah, if the G3 is dead, then that is news - maybe some subtle rephrasing of the story would've helped out and made it more interesting, rather than just regurgitating something that's as interesting as "new Ikea sofa now comes in loganberry"...
Re:Why is this news? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 06:02 · Score: 0

Actually Commodore still make Amiga One G3 machines
Re:Why is this news? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 06:20 · Score: 0

IIRC, the gecko processor in the Nintendo GameCube is a 400mhz IBM G3.

Student and Developer discounts (Re:Dont) by Manos+Batsis · 2003-10-22 01:35 · Score: 1, Informative

I'm in Athens, Greece and exploring the Apple website has persuaded me that both discounts are unavailable for me. Apple should offer both globally...

Re:Student and Developer discounts (Re:Dont) by MacFreek · 2003-10-22 02:35 · Score: 1

It seems that Apples offers student discounts in most european countries.

For example, there are Dutch, German and Swedish educational stores.

Indeed, there does not seem to be a Greec education store; in fact, there does not seem to be an Greec Apple Store at all (See list of International stores.

Bus speed and backside cache by kriegsman · 2003-10-22 01:36 · Score: 5, Informative

I just checked out the specs, and with the exception of the 12" model, the G4 PowerBooks all have a 167Mhz bus, and 512K of backside cache.

The G4 iBooks have only a 133Mhz bus and 256K of backside cache.

The faster buses and larger caches in the PowerBooks are going to keep them running faster than the new iBooks in real-world tasks, even if the CPU speed is the same.

-Mark

Re:Bus speed and backside cache by BigJimSlade · 2003-10-22 01:43 · Score: 1

The faster buses and larger caches in the PowerBooks are going to keep them running faster than the new iBooks in real-world tasks, even if the CPU speed is the same.

All kidding aside... how will this impact my gaming? (No, seriously)

I've wanted a newer Mac for a while. I would also like to play Warcraft III and maybe some other 3D games and would LOVE to tote an iBook with me to LAN parties instead of my PC. Is the bus speed going to have an effect on gaming? It looks like they include a (fairly) decent video card (Radeon 9200), so I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
Re:Bus speed and backside cache by rwhiffen · 2003-10-22 01:48 · Score: 1

Yup.. you hit the nail on the head. They did the same thing with the G4 iMac. They put in less L2 cache in the 'consumer' models. The L2 cache makes a pretty big difference. I couldn't google it, but I remember there being and article where a "digital audio" 533Mhz G4 power mac with 1Mb L2 cache cleaned the clock of a 800Mhz G4 iMac and it's lack of L2 cache when they first came out. Apple's trying to make it worth while to spend the extra cash for the increased speed of the 12" PowerBook. I'd love to see a benchmark between the two to see just now much a difference twice the L2 cache makes.

Cheers,
Rich
Re:Bus speed and backside cache by Alan+Partridge · 2003-10-22 01:54 · Score: 1

"Cleaned the clock"?

What does THAT mean?

--
That was classic intercourse!
Re:Bus speed and backside cache by kriegsman · 2003-10-22 01:56 · Score: 1

I currently have a Lombard PowerBook (aka G3 Series, "bronze keyboard") with a PowerLogix G4 upgrade daughtercard with a megabyte of backside cache. The PowerLogix software lets you turn the backside cache on and off, and adjust the cache's clock divider (e.g. 1:1, 3:2, 2:1, etc.). I accidentally turned the backside cache off a few days ago and within an hour I was cursing the sluggishness of the machine, and shopping the Apple Store for a replacement.

When I realized that the backside cache was compeltely OFF, and I turned it back on, performance immediately returned to a reasonable level. Unfortunately, that also eliminated most of my excuse for buying a new 15" PowerBook...

-Mark
Re:Bus speed and backside cache by capmilk · 2003-10-22 02:02 · Score: 1

Cleaning the clock is pretty similar to removing dirt from the watch, if you know what I mean. ;)
Re:Bus speed and backside cache by Alan+Partridge · 2003-10-22 02:07 · Score: 1

So it's kind of like buffing the Casio, then?

--
That was classic intercourse!
Re:Bus speed and backside cache by Spyky · 2003-10-22 02:38 · Score: 2, Informative

I have a 15" 1.25 and play WCIII and NWN both at full detail. I would hazard a guess that you should be able to play WCIII very will on any of the G4 iBooks. You might have to bump the detail down a notch, I don't think you will even notice the difference. It may not even be necessary at all.

-Spyky
Re:Bus speed and backside cache by sootman · 2003-10-22 02:41 · Score: 3, Insightful

The slowest PB-G4 is 1 GHz, and the only way to get above 800 MHz is to go up to the 12" model, so there's not much overlap in the 12" units at all. And since the 14" units still only have a 1024x768 screen (same as the 12" *books) that's the big difference between the 14" iBook & 15" PB. They did a pretty good job of no overlap.

That aside, it would be interesting to see how the 133 MHz/1 GHz G4 with 256k cache in the iBooks compares to the 167 MHz 1 GHz G4 with 512 in the PB. (barefeats, are you listening?) I was also wondering how long Apple was going to make G3s, G4s, and G5s. Now they're back to just 2 CPUs.

--
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
Re:Bus speed and backside cache by Surlyboi · 2003-10-22 02:52 · Score: 1

Not to be confused of course, with extracting the Michael...

--
Mod me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine...
Re:Bus speed and backside cache by baka_boy · 2003-10-22 03:30 · Score: 1

I've played Warcraft III and Black & White on a 12" PB quite a bit, and it kept up nicely. The iBook will suffer a small performance penalty across the board, (slightly slower bus, less L2 cache, etc.) but you should still be able to get 30+ FPS if you play with the resolution and detail settings a bit.

Also, the iBook *should* have one serious advantage for extended gaming sessions: its plastic enclosure should transfer much less heat into the lap and hands of anyone using it. The 12" gets almost painfully warm after a couple of hours.
Re:Bus speed and backside cache by OwnedByTwoCats · 2003-10-22 03:33 · Score: 1

Take the money you would have spent on the powerbook, and put it into a savings account. Then, in a year, when the mysterious computer braking force has slowed your upgraded bronze PowerBook to a crawl, you'll have the money to buy an even better machine.
Re:Bus speed and backside cache by dipipanone · 2003-10-22 03:54 · Score: 1

Possibly similar to polishing the Piaget or burnishing the Breitling?
Re:Bus speed and backside cache by diamondsw · 2003-10-22 07:13 · Score: 1

There are a lot of architectural differences between the 15/17 inch Powerbooks and the 12:

1) Bus speed
2) Firewire speed
3) Gigabit ethernet
4) Backlit keyboard

Etc. The 12" Powerbook was always a rev'ed iBook. Now that the iBook has inherited many of these bonuses, the 12" is less appealing. I configured identical ones (as much as possible). For a $650 difference, all I got was 200Mhz, DVD burner (nice, but still...), and DVI out.

--
I don't know what kind of crack I was on, but I suspect it was decaf.

Great and all... by meta-monkey · 2003-10-22 01:39 · Score: 1

..that the new iBook ships with 10.3, but I keep checking the Apple store to see when they're going to start shipping the G5s with 10.3. Right now, they're still shipping with 10.2, but they'll send you a copy of 10.3 when it gets released on Friday. Thanks and all, but I'd rather not have to bother getting my new G5, and then waiting a couple days, and then upgrading my OS. Apple, my credit card is burning, scarring my hand waiting to buy a G5!!! Start shipping them with 10.3 and I'll hemorrhage cash for you Mr. Jobs I swear!!!!!

Okay, breathe...

--
We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.

Re:Great and all... by SlamMan · 2003-10-22 01:43 · Score: 1

Easy answer. The iBook isn't shipping for 3-5 days, which is after Panther comes out. The towers are shipping now, so they can't say they ship with Panther.

--
Mod point free since 2001
Re:Great and all... by HeghmoH · 2003-10-22 01:45 · Score: 1

Yeah, because it's SO difficult to install a new version of Mac OS X. It'll probably take you at LEAST twenty minutes, oh the horror!

--
Mod down posts with a "Free Mac Mini/iPod" sig, they're spam!
Re:Great and all... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 01:45 · Score: 0

I'm waiting for exactly the same thing (only with the iMacs). I called Apple Australia today and was told that after the 25th they'll ship with 10.3 installed or the CDs included in the box.
Re:Great and all... by Alan+Partridge · 2003-10-22 01:58 · Score: 1

Order the G5 now. Having the OSX install disk is MUCH better than having only the software restore set.

Seriously, man - do it now.

--
That was classic intercourse!

help by cyberbob2010 · 2003-10-22 01:39 · Score: 0

Being a Windows person for most of my life (and just recently converting to Linux) I have a question. I am looking to get a Mac, if for any reason to play Escape Velocity lol. Slashdoters, seeing as how I'm one of the frst posters I hope that I'll recieve an ample amount of responses to this; Should I go ahead and buy an older G4 or a new G5? Laptop or desktop?

--
We seldom regret saying too little but often regret saying too much.

Re:help by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 02:04 · Score: 0

Get a 15" PowerBook. It's the sweet spot of the Apple product line.

Don't buy a Power Mac this year. You really, REALLY want two processors, and the only way to get that is to buy the top-of-the-line G5. Hold off until dual processors trickle back down through the product line before considering a G5.

But if you get a 15" PowerBook--with Bluetooth; you'll need it soon if you don't need it now, and you can't add it internally after you buy--you'll be set for a good, long time.
Re:help by kylector · 2003-10-22 02:13 · Score: 1

I'm holding out for a speed jump or price drop in the dual-G5 model. Buying a top-end Apple will last you about 4 years if you want it to (mine has). If you're just looking for middle of the road, then you might consider the above response or a 1.25 Ghz dual-G4 tower. Depends what a laptop is worth to you, really.

-Kylector
Re:help by TheDredd · 2003-10-22 02:28 · Score: 1

Maybe before you go off to buy a Mac, you might want to know there is a windows version of EV:Nova and you can download it here
Re:help by Gilmoure · 2003-10-22 02:32 · Score: 1

I just got my G5 1.8GHz last Friday. Totally sweet. Yeah, a G4 laptop would be cool but the G5 is just so totally slick. Can't wait for 10.3 to show up and see it really shine.

Guess I'll hold onto my G3 266MHz laptop for a few more months. It's topped out with OSX 10.2.8 (10.3 isn't supposed to install on equipment that didn't ship with USB ports). I imagine that there'll be a hack to let 10.3 install on older Macs.

--
I drank what? -- Socrates
Re:help by jchapman16 · 2003-10-22 02:48 · Score: 2, Informative

The two questions I always ask in response to this question are "how much do you want to spend?" and "what do you want to use it for?" All of the current Macs will run OS X and basic Internet and Office applications with no performance problems (just add RAM). If portability is of any interest to you, the Apple laptops are great with regards to relative performance and durability. On the other hand, if future expansion/upgrades are important to you (and they may be, considering you're interested in playing games), the desktop is the way to go. Deciding between a G4 desktop and the G5 will likely be a cost consideration. If you can afford the G5, its performance justifies the cost. The G4 desktops can be had for considerably less money, but still offer good performance (especially in dual-processor configurations). Obviously if top of the line performance is critical, you must choose the G5, but you can easily save enough for an iPod and additional RAM if you go for the G4.
Re:help by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 03:18 · Score: 0

> Guess I'll hold onto my G3 266MHz laptop for a few more months

For what it's worth, those black chunky curvaceous G3 laptops were the most stunning designed portable machines I've ever seen.

*drool*

But thats just me, I think
Re:help by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 04:42 · Score: 0

The author of XPostFacto (the utility to allow installing OSX on unsupported machines, http://eshop.macsales.com/OSXCenter/XPostFacto/) says:
'I am also now working on Panther support (i.e. Mac OS X 10.3), both for the models that XPostFacto currently supports and for the Beige G3 and "Wallstreet" Powerbooks.'

So help is on the way. I've got a TiBook that I love but my old Wallstreet is still one of the best designed laptops ever.
Re:help by Gilmoure · 2003-10-22 04:54 · Score: 1

Cool! Thanks man. Will be nice not losing my beige G3 at home, either.

--
I drank what? -- Socrates
Re:help by cyberbob2010 · 2003-10-22 09:58 · Score: 0

just a few more months?
well when you decide to get rid of it - leave me a message

--
We seldom regret saying too little but often regret saying too much.
Re:help by MoneyT · 2003-10-22 11:28 · Score: 1

Just so you know, here is a prediction (based on past actions) of the next upgrades for each of the models:

G4 iBooks: Apr. 2004 + or - a month

eMacs: Apr. 2004 + or - a month

G4 Powerbooks: Between Jan. 2004 and Mar. 2004 (some confusion here due to a constant stream of minor updates this year, best guess of Feb)

iMacs: Nov 2003 or Dec 2003

G5s: January 2004 + or - a month

Please note that these aren't official numbers, they are best guesses based on observation about the macintosh upgrade cycle, these numbers are subject to change.

--
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984

Only G4 by apple's marketing by Amiga+Lover · 2003-10-22 01:40 · Score: 5, Informative

These aren't the same G4 chips you're used to in Powerbooks, they're IBM manufactured "PPC 750GX". Yes, that's a G3 with AltiVec.

Previous PPC750s (the fx and so on) were called G3s. Add an AltiVec unit to it and Apple call it a G4

Remember Apple's marketing is perfectly justified in calling a chip anything it likes, and it looks to be using AltiVec as the demarcation between G3 and G4, rather than the rest of the core. It's still a PPC750 in these new iBooks however.

Re:Only G4 by apple's marketing by HeghmoH · 2003-10-22 01:47 · Score: 4, Insightful

AltiVec really is the only significant difference between the G3 and the G4 anyway. There are some other minor differences, but the "bolt on altivec and call it a G4" story is not new.

--
Mod down posts with a "Free Mac Mini/iPod" sig, they're spam!
Re:Only G4 by apple's marketing by Jesrad · 2003-10-22 01:50 · Score: 1

This is VERY interesting, could you cite any source ?

--
Maybe we deserve this world ?
Re:Only G4 by apple's marketing by Halo1 · 2003-10-22 01:52 · Score: 2, Informative

These aren't the same G4 chips you're used to in Powerbooks, they're IBM manufactured "PPC 750GX". Yes, that's a G3 with AltiVec.
How do you know? Personally, I doubt it. The last few generations of G3 iBooks had 512kb of L2 cache, and these iBooks only have 256kb.
This points more in the direction PPC7450/PPC7455 (i.e., the G4 used in the eMac/iMac and previous -not current- Powerbooks) than in that of a PPC750GX (successor of the PPC750FX used in previous iBooks, supposedly with up to 1MB of L2 cache and altivec support).

--
Donate free food here
Re:Only G4 by apple's marketing by LightForce3 · 2003-10-22 01:53 · Score: 1

Pardon me if this sounds rude, but what's your source for that information?
Re:Only G4 by apple's marketing by reiggin · 2003-10-22 01:55 · Score: 1

You're wrong.
Re:Only G4 by apple's marketing by jonbrewer · 2003-10-22 02:04 · Score: 1

These aren't the same G4 chips you're used to in Powerbooks, they're IBM manufactured "PPC 750GX". Yes, that's a G3 with AltiVec.

You wouldn't mind disclosing your source for this tidbit, would you?
Re:Only G4 by apple's marketing by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 02:06 · Score: 0

I agree with Halo1 - it's probably Motorola's PPC7455, as used in the previous powerbooks. The give away is the 256K level 2 cache - the PPC750FX has 512K level 2, and the next version will have 1Mb.

The PPC7455 is fabricated at .18 rather than .13 as in the PPC7457 used in the latest powerbooks. As such it runs hotter, which is probably why the 12" iBook is only 800 MHz. The "old" 12" powerbook was clocked at 867MHz and got pretty hot. Perhaps too hot for a plastic case...
Re:Only G4 by apple's marketing by AstroByte · 2003-10-22 02:35 · Score: 1

Well, I hope this doesn't come out as anonymous coward like my last pos. As I said (newly created account, AstroByte in case I'm a coward again) it sounds like a PPC7455. Interestingly (for Slashdotters anyway), it makes it a worse Linux laptop than before. Clock for clock, on non-altivec code, a 800MHz 7455 will perform worse than a 900MHz 750fx. And the 750fx had 512K of cache as opposed to 256K... BTW, I have a 700MHz iBook and a 1GHz 12" Powerbook both running Linux. 12" wipes the floor under MacOSX which is obviously why they've done it.
Re:Only G4 by apple's marketing by Jesrad · 2003-10-22 02:43 · Score: 4, Informative

Hardmac.com identifies the chips as PPC7455. There go the Gobi / Mojave theories of MacOpinion and AppleInsider.

--
Maybe we deserve this world ?
Re:Only G4 by apple's marketing by An+Anonymous+Hero · 2003-10-22 03:00 · Score: 1

I have a 700MHz iBook and a 1GHz 12" Powerbook both running Linux
What distro did you install on the 12" PB? I'd like to know if the stock Debian Woody kernel (maybe even the new Debian installer?) will boot on it.
Also, should the Linux or OS X partition go first? This report says Linux ("Use Drive Setup to create a partition at the beginning of the disk. This partition needs to be big enough to house all of your planned Debian partitions"), that one says OS X ("It's important you leave MacOS partition first"). Both are for iBooks though; couldn't find any report specifically on the 12" PB.
Also: is HFS (not HFS+) still the only file system that both OS X and Linux can read and write to?
Re:Only G4 by apple's marketing by Brad+Lucier · 2003-10-22 03:41 · Score: 3, Informative

These aren't the same G4 chips you're used to in Powerbooks, they're IBM manufactured "PPC 750GX". Yes, that's a G3 with AltiVec.
The PowerPC 750GX has a 1MB Level 2 cache and no AltiVec. I doubt that these are in the Ibook.
Re:Only G4 by apple's marketing by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 03:43 · Score: 0

Wrong! These are real Motorola-supplied G4 chips. I should know, I work there!
Re:Only G4 by apple's marketing by AstroByte · 2003-10-22 04:23 · Score: 4, Informative

Wow! Lots of questions! Both of them are running Yellow Dog Linux 3.0. I have tried Debian Woody (last year), but prefer YDL. I don't think it matters in which order the partitions are. I usually put MacOS X first, because I install it first. I then put Linux on and setup yaboot to dual boot them. Last time (i.e. Saturday), I stuck the Jaguar DVD in, used Drive Setup utility (now accessed via a menu option) to partition the disk in 2, and installed MacOS X on the first. Then, under the YDL 3.0 installer, I deleted the 2nd partition and replaced it with 3. A 1Mb Bootstrap partition (Apple_Bootstrap) for yaboot, a 512Mb swap partition and the rest for root (/), and that's it - the installer does the rest... Oh, if you're installing on a new 12", make sure you get the a recent version of XFree86. The one that came with YDL 3.0 (from June?) doesn't recognise the GeForce FX go5200. Upgrading to the one from YDL 3.0.1 fixes this. Also, watch out for the MacOS X 10.2.8 upgrade. The cpufreq code in the linuxppc kernel contains a protocol error and doesn't work after the upgrade (crashes on boot). Either recompile the kernel with it turned off, or grab a (very) recent kernel from benh where it's been fixed.
Re:Only G4 by apple's marketing by 11223 · 2003-10-22 04:31 · Score: 1

You are making it up based on an earlier NMR report. Please stop spreading this bullshit.
Welcome to Slashdot, where moderation of a comment has nothing to do with reality...
Re:Only G4 by apple's marketing by marmoset · 2003-10-22 04:35 · Score: 1

e2fs for OSX.
Re:Only G4 by apple's marketing by dwightk · 2003-10-22 04:57 · Score: 1

and you know this because?

Oh... it is just conjecture. I get it... state conjecture as fact...

I gotta try that some time.

--
Like anyone can even know that
Re:Only G4 by apple's marketing by diamondsw · 2003-10-22 07:16 · Score: 1

Where did you get this information? None of Apple's pages that I can find specify what specific "G4" is in the iBook.

--
I don't know what kind of crack I was on, but I suspect it was decaf.
Re:Only G4 by apple's marketing by grassy_knoll · 2003-10-22 07:25 · Score: 1

These aren't the same G4 chips you're used to in Powerbooks, they're IBM manufactured "PPC 750GX". Yes, that's a G3 with AltiVec.
::Does jedi hand wave::
These aren't the chips you're looking for... move along...

--
A Human Right
Re:Only G4 by apple's marketing by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 10:17 · Score: 0

http://www.lowendmac.com/tech/insignificant.html
Re:Only G4 by apple's marketing by Ancient+Devices+King · 2003-10-22 11:00 · Score: 1

Their evidence for that is the cache size (256k vs 512k on the newer G4's). If memory serves, they make G3's with 256k of cache as well.

--
-"It seems like you're trying to exploit a security hole. Would you like help?"
Re:Only G4 by apple's marketing by Roguelazer · 2003-10-22 11:23 · Score: 1

You got this from The MacRumors Page. This is a rumor from several months ago and is (AFIAK) untrue. These iBooks use Motorola processors. Even the presence of the AltiVec engine is unknown, but I am pretty sure that these aren't IBM procs.

--
My Systems
Re:Only G4 by apple's marketing by An+Anonymous+Hero · 2003-10-22 15:16 · Score: 1

Lots of answers, thanks :-)
This is very helpful, especially about the 10.2.8 upgrade. Panther might have the same problem, so I guess I'll try it first on 10.2.7, which I'm still running.
Re:Only G4 by apple's marketing by An+Anonymous+Hero · 2003-10-22 15:20 · Score: 1

Thanks. I didn't know about this, and it looks excellent. No more need for a special partition, just what I was after.
Re:Only G4 by apple's marketing by An+Anonymous+Hero · 2003-10-22 16:29 · Score: 1

Uh-oh, and I just found this, too, from Roman Zippel on lkml: [ANNOUNCE] HFS+ driver, a Linux HFS+ driver that now "supports full read and write access". (Not sure if anyone successfully compiled it into a powerpc kernel, though?)

Screen resolution questions by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 01:41 · Score: 2, Insightful

Can someone explain why a 14.1 in display would have the same resolution (1024x768) as the 12.1 in display? I would expect to see a higher resolution as the screen gets bigger. Can you see the difference when comparing the two side by side (clarity of the icons, etc)?

Re:Screen resolution questions by Sillypuddy · 2003-10-22 01:45 · Score: 1, Informative

the pixels are bigger, so the screen is not as smooth as the 12"

that's why i went with the 12" ibook instead of the 14" when i got my G3

now i gotta find a way to get rid of my G3 ibook and upgrade to the G4 ibook

-joe
Re:Screen resolution questions by Dot.Com.CEO · 2003-10-22 02:09 · Score: 1

Send it to me
I'll even pay postage.

--
Mother is the best bet and don't let Satan draw you too fast.
Re:Screen resolution questions by repetty · 2003-10-22 02:12 · Score: 1, Informative

Your misunderstanding is simple: "resolution" is a optical term that used to describe resolving power. Applied to computer displays, it would correspond to how many pixels there are per inch.

Nowadays people use the term "resolution" when they really mean screen size or dimension.

You can have a screen that's 1024 X 768 and is only 2-inches wide... or 2-feet wide.

Get it?

Anyway, since most people sit closer to their laptops and portables than they do when they are working on desktop computers, smaller screen can be perfectly acceptable to some. My daughter loves her older iBook, which has 1024 X 768 pixels in a 12-inch (diagonal) display.

--Richard

PS: The word "resolution" has been bastardized
by tech-types and marketing dweebs. Pity. It
was a good word.
Re:Screen resolution questions by beattie · 2003-10-22 02:26 · Score: 1

Apple is dumb. If you look at the screen on the 14" and the 12" ibooks side by side, you will wonder why anyone would ever buy the 14. It's larger, heavier and the screen is almost to the point of being blurry. if the 14 had a 1280x1024 or even slightly lower res, then it would be worth it.
Re:Screen resolution questions by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 02:39 · Score: 0

Yea but why would you pack the same number of pixels into larger screen when obviously you are capable of manufacturing screens with a higher pixel density?

I ran into a problem where I could not read greek symbols in a technical document without zooming in - very annoying after a while. Higher density displays offered by Dell removed that problem. I'm suprised Apple doesn't go with the higher density.
Re:Screen resolution questions by bach37 · 2003-10-22 02:47 · Score: 1

[snip] you will wonder why anyone would ever buy the 14

I use a 15" laptop as my main machine. I'm a music composer and the bigger screen allows me to see more music sheet area. That was a factor when I recently went laptop shopping.

Scott
Re:Screen resolution questions by jweatherley · 2003-10-22 02:54 · Score: 1

But with the iBooks the resolution is the same whether you go for the 12" or 14" so in your case you would not see any more music sheet area. That is why the 14" is a waste of money - get the compact 12", save money and get a sharper screen.

--

--
Reverse outsourcing: it's the future
Re:Screen resolution questions by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 03:12 · Score: 0

I use a 14" G3/600 at least 8 hours a day for development, and I can assure you that the screen is not "blurry". Quite the opposite -- it's the brightest, sharpest display I've seen on a consumer laptop ever.
Re:Screen resolution questions by beattie · 2003-10-22 03:19 · Score: 1

You dont get any more desktop space from using a 14" ibook than a 12". That was the original point, they have the same resolution.

screen size and desktop space are seperate variables.
Re:Screen resolution questions by beattie · 2003-10-22 03:23 · Score: 1

compare it to a 12" ibook and you will see what I mean.
granted the 14" is better than most PC laptop screens, but it's still not as sharp as the 12"
Re:Screen resolution questions by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 03:42 · Score: 0

> I'm suprised Apple doesn't go with the higher density.

These are iBooks, not PowerBooks. For iBook, Apple wants to keep the price down. That's why the bigger models of PowerBooks have higher resolution but not the 14" iBook.
Re:Screen resolution questions by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 05:47 · Score: 0

Yeah, but Apple isn't keeping the price down -- the 14" iBook has a low density screen (cheap)and it also weighs more (cheap), and yet it's more expensive than the superior 12" model.

Mark this up to dumb Apple buyers who think bigger-is-better, even though everyone else in the laptop business charges a premium for smaller.

Needless to say... by am46n · 2003-10-22 01:42 · Score: 2, Funny

Needless to say, they had the G4 iBooks ready to go, but held off announcing them until my 15" AlBook had arrived.

next? by kylector · 2003-10-22 01:42 · Score: 1

So why the chip change? What's next? My bet is they're about to put G5's in the PB line. But that would be pretty shocking. To go from desktop to laptop that quickly??? That's not like Apple, unless I'm forgetting something. I figured they would wait until early next year around MacWorld to announce something like this. But maybe they're trying to get the Christmas sales..? Must be it.

I just hope they drop the price of the G5 desktops, or increase the speed of the high-end model. That's what I want. :)

Still chuggin' on my 400Mhz G4 from 3.5 years ago...

-Kylector

Re:next? by otis+wildflower · 2003-10-22 01:50 · Score: 2, Interesting

My bet is they're about to put G5's in the PB line. But that would be pretty shocking. To go from desktop to laptop that quickly??? That's not like Apple, unless I'm forgetting something.

I think you're forgetting that it's the year of the laptop.. ;)

And I think you'll see speed revs before (or in lockstep with) price drops, given that they said 3GHz in 2004 is realistic..

And listen, the stock G5 may dissipate lots of power at 2ghz, but don't be surprised if Apple comes up with an interesting cooling scheme, runs the chip at lower speeds, and basically sells it as a desktop replacement ala desktop P4 laptops..
Re:next? by jo_ham · 2003-10-22 04:43 · Score: 1

Increase the speed of the high end G5? Is 2x 2Ghz not good enough for you?

More power!

Models and inches by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 01:43 · Score: 0

"12" model gets a 800Mhz G4 while the 14" models get a choice"

I'm an 8" model, what do I get? Spam mail promising more inches!!!

G3 support? by metatruk · 2003-10-22 01:45 · Score: 2, Funny

How much longer can we see OS X support for the last generation of iBooks with G3 processors? The current version of OS X 10.3 (Panther) does not support the beige G3 model.

Re:G3 support? by gsdali · 2003-10-22 01:48 · Score: 1

A fair while yet. Beige G3s are 1997/8 vintage IIRC, so maybe another 4/5 years at least.
Re:G3 support? by SofaMan · 2003-10-22 01:54 · Score: 2, Insightful

When you consider that the beige G3s are now around 5 years old, I don't actually think it's too bad that Apple are only now withdrawing support from a current operating system. It may not be unreasonable to expect that current or near-current G3 models would be supported for a similar timeframe.

Why would you want to try and run Panther on a 233-300 Mhz G3 machine anyway? I can't imagine the performance issues on that slow a processor would be worth it.

--
SofaMan -- Occasionally Battling Evil With His Mighty Powers Of Indolence.
Re:G3 support? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 01:59 · Score: 0

Well, as it's been almost five years since they stopped selling beige g3s, I would guess it will be a while yet.
Re:G3 support? by OccSub · 2003-10-22 02:07 · Score: 5, Funny

I know! I mean, this company is a flock of ravenous vultures... just forcing those people who just bought their brand new Power Macs only 6 f**king years ago to upgrade, just to run the latest OS! I mean, if Microsoft ever dropped support for my 90MHz Pentium in Longhorn, I'd be so ticked, I'd have to slit my own wrists and cry, on my bed, in the dark.
Re:G3 support? by tuxedobob · 2003-10-22 02:08 · Score: 1

Well, Jaguar's decent on a 466MHz iBook. I still have my sights set on one of these, though.
Re:G3 support? by NaugaHunter · 2003-10-22 02:09 · Score: 1

The beige G3 isn't officially supported because of it's overall architecture - the processor is a minor part of that. The main difference between that G3 and current G3's is speed, but the differences in the motherboard, standard graphics, ports, harddrive, etc. is far greater. When you throw in the fact that people still using those machines have almost certainly upgraded most of those factors QA goes out the window. From what I've heard Panther will probably work, they just haven't tested it and won't help - not unreasonable for a 5 year old machine, considering how many OS's versions have worked for it.

--
R: That voice. Where have I heard that voice before? B: In about 365 other episodes. But I don't know who it is either.
Re:G3 support? by squiggleslash · 2003-10-22 02:37 · Score: 1

You know, I own a couple of Beige G3s, and while I'm not overly happy about Apple dropping it, I'm not bitching at them either and completely understand why they've done it.
You see, it's like this: Beige G3s are not like subsequent Macs. They employ an architecture that Apple basically discarded with the iMacs and Blue & White G3s. The new architecture has been in place until today (possibly excluding the new G5s, I'm not certain)
If you doubt this for a second, take a look at the various Linux and *BSD projects, and their PPC versions. Most require an old version of Mac OS to be installed on Beige machines, with a special loader that runs when that OS is booted, that then loads up Linux or BSD whatever. And that's just to get around the firmware differences. (Pedants will point out that there are various projects to create loaders that do not require Mac OS - this is true, but they're still special loaders that wouldn't exist if it wasn't for Old World systems being substantially different, so it doesn't change my point.) The Beige G3s also were based around ADB, not USB. They had SCSI built into the motherboards, and networking included Apple's overloaded-serial-port based AppleTalk systems (something Apple never got working with OS X - no, not the protocol, the overloaded-serial-port implementation of AppleTalk.)
I don't think Apple is going to have to make a decision like this again until the G5-based systems have been standard in all product lines for five years, which is probably close to a decade away. It sucks they're doing it, but given the choice between them dropping future support for a cranky platform and OS X becoming bloated with hacks, I know which choice I'd prefer them to make.

--
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
Re:G3 support? by Gorbag · 2003-10-22 02:58 · Score: 1

Well, I'm running Jag on a 333 lombard, and consider it "worth it," but then I used to run Tenon's unix on mac in ages past. If Panther is more efficient than Jag, then why not?

--
-- I speak only for myself
Re:G3 support? by HeghmoH · 2003-10-22 04:21 · Score: 1

Unlike certain other well-known OSes, Mac OS X has, so far, gotten faster with each release. The Public Beta was horribly slow, 10.0 was barely usable, 10.1 was finally somewhat decent, 10.2 was very good, and now 10.3 is fast as all hell.

--
Mod down posts with a "Free Mac Mini/iPod" sig, they're spam!
Re:G3 support? by gamgee5273 · 2003-10-22 06:22 · Score: 1

Well, my iBook 500 is two years old now. Panther runs much better than Jaguar did, and I'm even seeing better graphics candy than in Jaguar (and I can't do Quartz Extreme). So, I suspect, that my iBook probably will make it for another two-three years if I don't beat it up too much...about the time 10.5 comes out. I suspect 10.4 might see the iBook get slower, but will still work.

Re:Mac problems by pcraven · 2003-10-22 01:45 · Score: 2, Informative

That's like comparing a Windows 3.1 system to a current Mac with the Unix-based OS. You'd be asking why anyone would choose Windows.

The mac you are using doesn't have pre-emptive threading support. The Macs now have a totally different OS core, based on BSD.

thank god i hesitated by 514x0r · 2003-10-22 01:45 · Score: 3, Interesting

i was minutes away from buying a g3 ibook for my wife yesterday, but decided to wait. by this morning i'd talked myself into it and went to the apple site. holy jebus, for an extra $100, she's [i'm] getting a g4 with twice the memory and the combo drive built in!

--

!(^((ri)|(mp))aa$)

Re:thank god i hesitated by Alan+Hicks · 2003-10-22 04:13 · Score: 1

i was minutes away from buying a g3 ibook for my wife yesterday, but decided to wait.

I ordered a G3 iBook two weeks ago tommorrow. It was shipping out slow (expected ship date was the 28th. I was having trouble accessing my order to see if it might have shipped early last night. This morning, I checked the order and it had a hold placed on it with instructions to call the good people at Apple. They politely canceled my order for a G3 and I'll now be receiving the 12" G4 for the same price, albeit the expected ship date is the 29th. I can't way. Anyhow, you would have probably gotten the same deal as I did.

--
Slackware, what else when it must be secure, stable, and easy?
Re:thank god i hesitated by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 05:51 · Score: 0

Don't you *ever* post anything that suggests that the reason we buy our wives cool technology is so that we can have new gadgets without the guilt trips. You're going to ruin a good thing for a lot of us.

Six Forty Em Bee We Want More Memory! by ellem · 2003-10-22 01:47 · Score: 0, Offtopic

Six Forty Em Bee
We Want More Memory!
Six Forty Em Bee
We Want More Memory!

I'll be chanting that at my SoHo Apple STore today.

--
This .sig is fake but accurate.

Re:Six Forty Em Bee We Want More Memory! by Junior+J.+Junior+III · 2003-10-22 02:32 · Score: 1

640 ought to be enough for anybody, 640 ought to be enough for you.

--
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
Re:Six Forty Em Bee We Want More Memory! by ellem · 2003-10-22 02:37 · Score: 1

I run a Tralfaz Emulator. I need 768 at least!

--
This .sig is fake but accurate.
Re:Six Forty Em Bee We Want More Memory! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 11:19 · Score: 0

-Buy a PowerBook
or
-Use a 1GB SoDIMM

Still the best deal by rixstep · 2003-10-22 01:47 · Score: 1

The iBook is still the best deal in laptops anywhere, and now it might be better. The G4 is a lot hotter than the G3 what I know, and this might cause the fan to run incessantly. Whether the iBook is as powerful as the PowerBook is not the issue, as far as I am concerned; the iBook is a convenient box to lug around and pound for pound the best deal going.

Re:Still the best deal by beattie · 2003-10-22 02:32 · Score: 1

How is an ibook the best deal in laptops anywhere when I can go to dell or compaq or whatever and get a faster notebook for $800. I have an iBook and I like it and all. But sometimes I wish I had a dell laptop that was cheaper, faster, and had more features.

Linux on the lap by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 01:49 · Score: 0

http://www.linuxcertified.com/linux-laptop-lc2000. html

no MPC7447 here... by Tomasset · 2003-10-22 01:51 · Score: 5, Interesting

It is just curious to see that Apple is not using the latest MPC7447 G4s (those found inside the newest Powerbooks) but the oldest MPC7445 , which include only 256K cache and generate more heat as they are produced with an 0.18 u technology (as opposed to the 0.13 u of the 47s)

The only reason I could see is, apart from differentating the models in terms of cache size, the future transition to G5 in the Powerbooks and G4-7447s in the iBooks.

Re:no MPC7447 here... by tuxedobob · 2003-10-22 02:01 · Score: 1

Still, there's no question that a G4 of any type beats a G3 under OS X. And now even the cheapest Apple laptop boasts a G4. Dat's da bomb.
Re:no MPC7447 here... by berniecase · 2003-10-22 02:36 · Score: 3, Interesting

The new PowerBooks use the MPC7457. Apple's CHUD tools report it as a 7457, and I have a 15" AlBook to prove it :-)

I think it was probably just easier for Apple to shoehorn the older 12"/17" PowerBook design (with the MPC7445 (or are they using the MPC7455?) into the iBook's case, where you've got a little bit more space for cooling.
Re:no MPC7447 here... by myov · 2003-10-22 02:55 · Score: 1

Probably using up excess inventory

--
I use Macs to up my productivity, so up yours Microsoft!
Re:no MPC7447 here... by illumin8 · 2003-10-22 06:46 · Score: 1

You are incorrect. The new PowerBooks use the Motorola 7447 chip, which includes everything the 7457 chip has without support for L3 cache. There have been several articles on this on Macrumors.

--
"When the president does it, that means it's not illegal." - Richard M. Nixon
Re:no MPC7447 here... by mzs · 2003-10-22 06:54 · Score: 1

Actually it is good news that Apple is not using the MPC7457 in the iBooks. (This is in fact the G4 that is being used in the newest powerbooks.) The MPC74x7 parts have a BTIC (Branch Target Instruction Cache) bug and the current work around is to disable it. This causes somewhere between 1% to 3% of a performance degradation on typical code. There was a good comment about it on macosxhints a little while back:
PPC 7457 performance tweak for new PowerBooks
The second comment down is the one with good information from this discussion. Here is the choice quote:
The BTIC is a 128-entry, four-way set-associative cache that contains the most recently used branch target instructions (up to four instructions per entry) for b and bc branches. When a taken branch instruction of this type hits in the BTIC, the instructions arrive in the instruction queue a cycle sooner than they would arrive from the instruction cache. Due to an error in the processor, the BTIC may provide corrupted instructions and should not be enabled.
256K vs. 512K of cache also gives a distinction between the iBook and powerbook lines that Apple may wish to have as one of the reasons to justify their price difference as well.
Re:no MPC7447 here... by berniecase · 2003-10-22 07:02 · Score: 2, Informative

No, you are incorrect.

I have one of the new PowerBooks. I also have Apple's CHUD (Computer Hardware Understanding Development) tools. When I run the Hardware PreferencePane, what is reported is 7457, not 7447.

Since when do you believe what you see on MacRumors?
Re:no MPC7447 here... by david-bo · 2003-10-23 09:05 · Score: 1

Could you both please post references for your claims?

Thanks
Re:no MPC7447 here... by berniecase · 2003-10-23 09:47 · Score: 1

Here's a screenshot I took from my 15" 1.25GHz PowerBook.

Re:Mac problems by cyberbob2010 · 2003-10-22 01:51 · Score: 1, Interesting

"I'd rather hear some intelligent reasons why anyone would choose to use a Mac over other faster, cheaper, more stable systems"
Shity File System? - use a Windows machine all day for three months straight using at least 5 different memory and processor intensive programs a day and see how long it takes you to start getting fatal errors (that is of course unless you want to use your Pentium Pro 200 to defrag - cause that'll be REAL fast)
Blue Screen of Death? - I'd rather have it run slow for a bit than lose everything. Save often? I shouldnt have to!!

--
We seldom regret saying too little but often regret saying too much.

Re:Think you've got it bad? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 01:51 · Score: 0

you live, you learn. oh well. And I felt bad for the guy. :-/

Re:Think you've got it bad? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 01:52 · Score: 0

This happens to you a lot doesn't it?

Get the hint.

Also, I think your clock has stopped...

It needs to be asked by Evil+Adrian · 2003-10-22 01:53 · Score: 0, Offtopic

Mwongozi adds "Although not announced on the front page, the Apple Store was updated just a few minutes ago to show the new iBook."

Mwongozi, how did you know? Do you sit at the Apple Store hitting reload looking for changes? :-)

--
evil adrian

Re:It needs to be asked by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 02:26 · Score: 0

Mwongozi, how did you know? Do you sit at the Apple Store hitting reload looking for changes? :-)
Maybe he is an undercover Apple astroturfer, who got the info right from the source? I mean, if the RIAA can afford astroturfers, so can Apple!
Re:It needs to be asked by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 03:36 · Score: 0

You could only be from macosx.com :) --kilowatt

New Power/iBook by locarecords.com · 2003-10-22 01:53 · Score: 2, Insightful

...

I have just bought a new top-of-range Al Powerbook and although I am extremely happy with it I am concerned that Apple has not got enough of a differentiation between the iBook and Powerbook line.

Bluetooth and a larger L2 cache is hardly a justification and the superdrive is personally neither here nor there. I think the sooner they get the liquid cooled G5 fitted into a powerbook the better. Hey I might even be *forced* to part with even more money for the sheer coolness of it.

However I think that this market segmentation is crucial for Apple to keep an aspirational difference between consumer and pro lines. And frankly these releases are dangerously close to blurring them...

I would suggest that plastic vs metal case is *not* gonna be enough if they are both based on the same processor architecture...

--
---- The Open Source Record Label : : LOCARECORDS.COM

Re:New Power/iBook by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 02:59 · Score: 0

You bought the last Powerbook line to sport a G4. Don't worry, there will be a clear differentiation in a few months when the Powerbook G5 is released.
Re:New Power/iBook by gamgee5273 · 2003-10-22 06:33 · Score: 1

Now slow down, sparky. There are some massive differences in the video output, the RAM capacity, the processor speeds, etc. A 14" iBook does not compare, in any way, shape or form to your new PowerBook, no matter what size it may be.
As a 12" iBook 500 user, I'm seriously trying to decide between asking my boss for the new iBook 12", the PB 12" or PB 15". Each has its advantages but each has its disadvantages. iB 12", for example, has a strong price, but lacking in on-board components I want and need for work. the PB 12" has more of what I want, and I love the size, but is a decent amount more. And, finally, the 15" PB has everything I want, but it's a touch too big for my needs and the price might be prohibitive...
Trust me, I think there is plenty of differentiation between the lines...
Re:New Power/iBook by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 07:12 · Score: 0

A few months? Ha. Try a year. Save this post, I'm right.

The 7 stages of grief for highly effective people by teamhasnoi · 2003-10-22 01:54 · Score: 4, Funny

I just got a 15" PB a few weeks ago, and am just had a "Oh no..." moment when I saw this story.

Shock: "What? G4s in the IBOOKS?
Denial: "This must be some poorly researched article on /."
Bargaining: "Maybe I can return my powerbook and get an iBook..."
Fear: "What if Apple won't let me return it because its a build to order??"
Anger: "Those SOBs KNEW and didn't tell me before I spent all that money!"
Despair: "Now my Powerbook will have no resale value when I have to eBay it for the new G5 laptops!!"
Acceptance: "Wait a minute - this this Powerbook kicks ass! The girls want to be with me, the guys want to be me, and I consistently get benchmarks higher than a dual 1 ghz G4 Powermac. The Airport Extreme rules, the battery life is lengthy, it runs nice and warm and winter is coming! I guess I did ok..."

Fast forward one year. "The G5 laptops are OUT?!?...."

Re:Dear Most Rev. Father Randy "Pudge" O'Day by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 01:54 · Score: 0

While you probably think you are engaged in a little harmless trolling, you might want to consider the message you are sending out to your peers.

You are obviously profoundly obsessed with an issue to the extent that you feel compelled to post messages such as this. This is denial. Why not accept yourself and stop denying yourself your true identity.

The same goes for your repressed homosexuality.

Re:Think you've got it bad? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 01:55 · Score: 0

You gotta talk to her. I know it's hard, but cowboy up and do it, it's the only way you can resolve this (well, other than through violence, which may or may not be a viable option).

If she's still your best friend, surely she can understand you not wanting to see her and your roomie getting it on and you two can come to an agreement. If she can't then she's not worth the flesh (sexy though it may be) Satan poured her black soul into; tell her she's not welcome in your home and that the friendship is terminated.

Moral of the story being: friends and sex is a really fucking risky prospect. If you get involved with a friend and they're the right one and things work out then congratulations, fate has baked you the tastiest of cakes, if not, you can pretty much kiss the friendship goodbye. 'Course, you know that first hand now...

Gah by YOU+LIKEWISE+FAIL+IT · 2003-10-22 01:55 · Score: 1

Bloody hell, my Powerbook order was approved today. Now, I'm not saying 'causality' here, but it seems everytime I order something from the store, they update something else. :-P

YLFI

--
One god, one market, one truth, one consumer.

Difficult to justify the 12" powerbook now... by iJed · 2003-10-22 01:56 · Score: 3, Insightful

Its difficult to justify buying the 12" PowerBook with the new 12" iBook. I know the PowerBook is slightly faster, has slightly better graphics card, DVI out and a slightly nicer casing but the price difference is so large that you'd really have to need one of these specialised features to justify the purchase of a PowerBook 12".

Re:Difficult to justify the 12" powerbook now... by bpbond · 2003-10-22 02:47 · Score: 1

The ability to burn DVDs is also a big difference.

--
"Science is a tribute to what we can know although we are fallible" -Jacob Bronowski
Re:Difficult to justify the 12" powerbook now... by iJed · 2003-10-22 02:59 · Score: 1

The ability to burn DVDs is also a big difference. Yes I never thought of that one actually... I suppose the only reason that there is no SuperDrive option is so that the new iBook G4 doesn't cannibalise sales of the PowerBook. Another area where the 12" iBook G4 beats the PB is battery life. It appears that the new iBook 12" has had its battery life extended to 6 hours just like its bigger 14" brother. Its max RAM is still limited to 640M though.
Re:Difficult to justify the 12" powerbook now... by WasterDave · 2003-10-22 09:04 · Score: 1

I'm not sure it does have a slightly better video card. And before we mention screen spanning, I'm typing this on a happily spanned 12" iBook.

Of course, they may have fixed that now...

I'll still be buying a 12" PB next. I'm wanting to run at *least* a 1GHz G4 and my only choices are the PB or the 14" iBook. Personally, I don't get on with the larger iBooks.

Dave

--
I write a blog now, you should be afraid.
Re:Difficult to justify the 12" powerbook now... by curious.corn · 2003-10-22 13:19 · Score: 1

How about plugging more ram? For the price it costs today the more ram the better. OS X is a ram pig, easily eating though 512 MB and swapping tends to suck on laptop HDs (it does anyway). We all know anyway that DDR is bottlenecked in pre G5 architectures but plugging a gig of ram won't hurt and for the same multitasking performance it might cost less than bumping the processor speed. So the 12" PB does have an edge on that. Also, the larger cache and (presumably) better vid card will more than enough make for the 100$ delta between the top iBook and the PowerBook). Of course most of the sales will be on the lower target iBook because very few looking for a faster laptop will fret for those lasst 100$. BTW, according to the ram combinations it might look like the first 128MB are soldered on the mobo while on PB (I've seen titaniums, sorry) all ram is dimm-ed so you really have all the possible freedom. iBooks are cheaper and kind of "tablet" equivalents; throw them in the suitcase/rucksack, scribble for hours on a comfortable layout and do some odd multimedia/game... centrino's were designed against them and Apple should focus on battery life for these devices or intel will eat into their pie (uh, I just made an odd statement, sounds like I've taken it the other way around... seriously though... Apples rule... the only things missing are Applications... I know of entire faculties like civile/mech engineering just dreaming to jump ship only to be held back by AutoCAD!)

--
Mi domando chi Ã il mandante di tutte le cazzate che faccio - Altan

Re:Mac problems by Sillypuddy · 2003-10-22 01:57 · Score: 0

if you going to troll you shuold come up with your own stuff

Previously copied

-joe

Re:Mac problems by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 01:58 · Score: 0

YHBT (You Have Been Trolled). This is a serial troll that has plagued every hardware /. story for a long time.

Annoying ibook external monitor limitiation by acomj · 2003-10-22 01:58 · Score: 1

I don't know if this is still true, but the older ibooks (mine included) when hooked to an external monitor can't display higher resolution than the lcd.

Re:Annoying ibook external monitor limitiation by Shenkerian · 2003-10-22 03:07 · Score: 2, Informative

How old is your iBook? My 11/02 800 MHz (with monitor spanning enabled) works great with my 1280 x 1024 17" LCD.
Try here for the firmware hack.

--
You tell me how "whilst" differs from "while," and I'll stop calling you a pretentious jackass.

Heat Issues? No, Market Segmentation by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 02:00 · Score: 0

They have a 12-inch Powerbook at 1GHz that they want to sell, so they have to make a slower iBook

Re:Mac problems by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 02:01 · Score: 0

Holy shit, this troll just keeps working and working, doesn't it?

eMac prices lowered too! by milenko11 · 2003-10-22 02:02 · Score: 3, Informative

The eMac has dropped to $799 now and that is for the 1 GHz G4 with a combo drive.

Re:eMac prices lowered too! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 02:22 · Score: 0

Yeah I just noticed that too... I guess I'll be ordering a 1GHz G4 with superdrive instead of a 800MHz G4 with combo drive... Screw the portability factor. ^_^

Welcome to computer purchasing by acomj · 2003-10-22 02:03 · Score: 1

My rule for buying computers.

research, buy, don't look back (don't look for a least a year)

Re:Welcome to computer purchasing by obadiahtech · 2003-10-22 04:27 · Score: 1

that advice really helps someone who just spent $1700 in july on a 12-PB (867/640/60) all-maxed at the time. man, this hurts
Re:Welcome to computer purchasing by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 07:15 · Score: 0

That's ok. We bought a 600 MHz iBook last year knowing full well that they were due for a refresh. Sure enough, 3 weeks later we could have gotten 200 more MHz, 16 MB more vram, and a combo drive (we got dvd-rom) for about the same price. No biggie, we wanted it at the time we ordered and were happy to have it for a few weeks before the refresh.

pictures by Sillypuddy · 2003-10-22 02:03 · Score: 0

They had it on their "staging" server.. now it's on production

Pics

-joe

Re:Does it really matter anymore? by Alan+Partridge · 2003-10-22 02:05 · Score: 1

Feeble troll.

Apple are moving plenty of product and making a small profit.

You should try cut & pasting a better troll from one of the professional Mac-baiters.

--
That was classic intercourse!

USB 2.0 by mblase · 2003-10-22 02:05 · Score: 2, Informative

Browsing Apple's pages, I noticed that USB 2.0 support was added to these iBooks. USB 2.0 was first supported by Apple in the new G5 towers (although unlike the G5s, the iBooks don't support FireWire 800, only FW 400).

It also ships with OS X 10.3 Panther, although this should surprise no one as Panther is set to ship within the week anyway.

Re:USB 2.0 by dafz1 · 2003-10-22 02:25 · Score: 1

Actually, the later generations of Mirror Drive Door G4 (1.42 dual processors) were the first to have USB 2.0 support. When shipped, they only ran 1.0, but a system update(or maybe firmware...I can't remember) activated the 2.0 capability.
Re:USB 2.0 by BigBir3d · 2003-10-22 03:01 · Score: 1

USB 1.1 not 1.0 if you want to be precise...

Other than that, yes, you are correct.

AFAIK, you can no longer buy a 1.1 chipset, they are all 2.0 now.

Apple had to be dragged into the modern USB era... kinda funny considering they jumped on USB so much quicker than the average PC companies did.
Re:USB 2.0 by reiggin · 2003-10-22 03:07 · Score: 1

The "new" eMacs are still 12 mbps USB. What a shame.
Re:USB 2.0 by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 11:14 · Score: 0

Why would you need USB 2.0, when you have FireWire? Yes, USB 2.0 is 480 MB/s (IIRC), whilst FireWire is 400 MB/s. Big whoop. In reality, FireWire gets more performance out of its bus than USB does -- a hard drive connected via USB 2.0 will be slower than the same drive connected via FireWire (assuming it can saturate the bus, that is.)
USB is perfect for keyboards, mice, and other low-speed peripherals. FireWire is perfect for high-speed transfers. USB 2.0 is an attempt to polish a turd; it may give you higher numbers, but we all know about lies, damn lies, statistics, and "peak performance" figures, right?

Wait until Friday!!! by tuxedobob · 2003-10-22 02:06 · Score: 4, Informative

If you want to buy one of these, it might be a good idea to go to the unleashing of Panther this Friday at an Apple Store! When Jaguar came out, it was what, 10% off everything in the store?

Re:Wait until Friday!!! by phong3d · 2003-10-22 02:29 · Score: 1, Informative

They come with Panther whether you buy it today or on Friday - Apple's site says it comes with it installed, and since the ship date is set to 3-5 business days from now, you'll definitely get it.
Re:Wait until Friday!!! by Zed2K · 2003-10-22 02:56 · Score: 1

The point he made was that for the release of the new OS the store discounted everything 10%. So if they do the same this time you either buy it now at full price or wait 3 days and get 10% off (maybe).
Re:Wait until Friday!!! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 08:18 · Score: 0

Excellent advice. At last year's "Hello, Kitty" party (the Jaguar rollout) I dropped three grand on a brand new G4, and saved $300 in the process. That's significant.

Now, if only Apple and the state of Texas would get together on this, so that the next major rollout can be on one of Texas's famous Sales Tax Holidays... :)

I ran over my girlfriends iBook on my bike by jasonbowen · 2003-10-22 02:08 · Score: 1

I was coming to a stop and taking my backpack off as when I noticed my books started flying forwards as I swung my backpack around, then I saw the iBook do the same. I think having a suspension fork on my bike may have helped but but when I plowed over it I was sure I just killed it. The culprit was the worn zipper on my 10 year old backpack, it wast thrown away that night.

Which to choose? by _w00d_ · 2003-10-22 02:08 · Score: 1

A friend of mine has a brand new 15" PB that looks very nice and I've considered purchasing one. However, the 17" PB has more screen realestate and a faster processor at the cost of $400 more. Is it worth the price to upgrade to the 17" PB as opposed to the 15" PB? The 14" iBook looks nice from the pictures but would a power user grow out of it rather quickly? I haven't used an Apple computer since my IIc I had when I was a child but I'm anxious to try OSX. What has been your experience with your Apple laptop? Would you make the purchase again or go with an IBM ThinkPad or other Intel-based laptop?

Re:Which to choose? by teamhasnoi · 2003-10-22 02:21 · Score: 1

I have been using OS X at work since 10.0, but always had PCs at home (and a couple system 7 macs...) I had thought about getting a little P3 laptop and running linux or Beos on it, but couldn't find any that had resonable battery life. Then the Aluminum PBs came out.
I would absoulutely *not* trade my 3-week PB for anything. It rocks. :) It runs all the stuff I need for work - Photoshop, InDesign, etc. and is just great.
17" might have a bigger screen and be slightly faster, but you still have to carry the thing around. If you see yourself traveling with it, I'd have no problem recommending the 15" PB. The iBooks are maxed out on ram at 640, while the PBs can use 2 gigs. (I have a gig in mine) OS X needs lots of mem to run like it's supposed to.
OS X is just great. Run 'big' apps next to open-source ones. I will never go back.
Re:Which to choose? by _w00d_ · 2003-10-22 02:37 · Score: 1

Thanks for your reply. I don't travel too often on a plane but I would be taking it to class with me every day. I've seen backpacks that can accommodate the 17" PB but having never owned a laptop before, I can't say how heavy it would feel by the end of the day. But I think you're correct, 15" PB may be the best size, especially for a student who has a limited amount of desk space in class.
Re:Which to choose? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 02:43 · Score: 0

I have owned four Apple laptops-- a Duo 210, a 5300c, and iBook 500 and an iBook 800, on which I'm typing this post.

I loved the Duo. The 5300 was a stinker, but the iBooks are great, especially with OS X. The iBooks are quite sturdy, and when I'm on the clock they go with me everywhere in my backpack (inside a padded sleeve case).

They have worked wonderfully-- every time I work on a client's Wintel laptop I get a new appreciation for the iBooks. When I upgraded from the 500 to the 800, I just cloned the drive over and ran the OS X installer that came with the 800, and everything worked fine. They require very little maintenance, and they hold their resale value beautifully (actually, I have eBayed all of my previous laptops, and even got a good price for my 5300c). To subsidize the purchase of the iBook 800, I sold my iBook 500 in January of 2003 for more than 2/3 what I paid for it. I don't expect this 800 to do quite as well since it will be competing with G4-based iBooks, but it still should pull in enough money to make the effective cost of my upgrading to a G4 iBook palatable. I've already priced out what I want, and the same $1300 that last year bought me a G3/800/12"/128MB/30GB/CDRW this year will buy me a G4/800/12"/256MB/40GB/CDRW/Bluetooth/AirPort Extreme.

I do consider myself a "power user," but the 12" iBook fulfills all of my needs when I'm at a client site. Within a minute of walking in the door at any client's office, I'm on their network with no reboot necessary. It can even run Virtual PC (with Win98) when I need to use it for something. I don't need FW800 or gigabit Ethernet, I don't need a SuperDrive, and I don't need a backlit keyboard. If you don't *need* any of those things, then you might want to stick with the iBook yourself.
Re:Which to choose? by Cazis · 2003-10-22 03:00 · Score: 1

If your gonna take it to class, do go for the 15". If you need screen realestate on it, get a virtual desktop app installed...

With regards to the processor speed, its such a small bump that it doesnt really matter as the HDD would be the bigger bottleneck. Instead of the 17" I suggest you take the 15" and upgrade the HDD to a 5400rpm instead of the default 4200rpm, that would make somewhat of a bigger overall speed increase that going with the 17" and you save roughly $345. (HDD $125, VirtualDesktop $30)

Ohh, and get the Apple Student discount while your at it...
Re:Which to choose? by haut · 2003-10-22 03:14 · Score: 1

I had been an x86 user for my whole life but got an ibook a little less than a year ago and I haven't looked back. I wouldn't consider buying a laptop from another company, unless there was some Windows app that you really needed. The ibook is the perfect laptop in my opinion (and now at $1100 its cheap). First, the 12" ibook is the size of a piece of paper, which makes it really easy to carry around if youre a student. Second, its durable and feels like it, unlike EVERY pc laptop I've tried (we get a lot in at work for professors and even the high end Dell laptops don't feel as nice). Second, my 800 mhz G3 ibook is fast enough, quartz looks great and I can even run programs like Matlab with decent speed, so the G4s should be even nicer. Finally, AppleCare rocks and for $183 (to students) you can have a 3 year warranty. I had problems with my 800 mhz w/in the first year and they sent me a replacement 900 mhz one. Before my year is up I'm buying Applecare and if I have repeating problems with my current ibook I'll get another new one.
Re:Which to choose? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 03:30 · Score: 0

My new 17 inch Powerbook is solid as a rock. What is it worth to have a computer that runs great, is stable beyond words, looks incredible and gives you peace of mind? I don't see any problems with the size of it either. I think people that complain about the size of a 17 inch Powerbooks have *ahem* laptop envy.
Re:Which to choose? by teamhasnoi · 2003-10-22 03:50 · Score: 1

upgrade the HDD to a 5400rpm instead of the default 4200rpm
That's what I did, plus got the one stick of ram (1 gig)- I never have to wait for stuff to load or open, it really is sweet.
I know, all the hard-core apple buyers are saying, "What? You could have gotten a 7200 rpm HD from HardDriveStore, and bought your ram from MemoryStore and put that in and saved a zillion!!"
I just wanted it to work with no BS, no waiting for 3rd party ram, no worrying about zapping the motherboard. You spend a few grand, you don't want to mess it up. ;)
One thing I would mention: When I first got the 15, I said to myself "Wow. I don't even need all this screen. I could have gotten the 12."
Now I'm glad I got the 15 - It's just enough room for Photoshop and such.
Any new PB or iBook will have Panther installed and that has Expose, which should do the job of virtual desktops nicely (or so I hear).
Re:Which to choose? by jimlau · 2003-10-22 04:25 · Score: 1

I have a 17" PowerBook, and I agree that it's too big for taking to class every day. My 12" iBook was the perfect size for bringing in a backpack, but I frequently wished for more screen space. I've gone to a new strategy of bringing my Palm Tungsten T3 (and keyboard) to classes for notes and voice recordings and so on, and using the 17" at home/office/traveling. I find this combination excellent. The screen on the big PowerBook impresses me every time I look at it. Not to mention the sweeeet aluminum case, backlit keyboard, bluetooth, etc, etc, etc. For one PowerBook that does it all, I highly recommend a 15" Aluminum PowerBook. I think you would be very pleased with one.

Wow by defishguy · 2003-10-22 02:08 · Score: 1

Would it REALLY be news if IBM released all of their laptops with P3s?

Upgrading old hardware with hardware that ahem... isn't so old doesn't exactly make this geek drool.

Re:Does it really matter anymore? by presearch · 2003-10-22 02:09 · Score: 4, Funny

I was going to get an Audi TT then I found out I could get a
Kia Rio for less than 10 grand! They both go 75mph which is as
fast as you can go anywhere anyway. Audi is charging over
3 times as much!

Audi, as a quality automobile company, is dying.

Re:Getting there.. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 02:11 · Score: 0

You know, I have noticed that whenever you get someone trolling you, you get, without exception, modded down as a troll yourself. I'd be truly sore in your place, trying to find that SOB who is stalking you on /. Love your site btw, truly pioneering stuff!

Wish they'd do a pen convertible at least by WillAdams · 2003-10-22 02:12 · Score: 2, Insightful

I actually considered going w/ an iBook (got to use a couple at TUG2003 in Hawai'i and thought the 12" model was a good fit---found the 14" too big, guess I'm still remembering my Sharp PC-6220, the first truly usable laptop (and I had a GRiDCase III plus, NEC Ultralite and Toshiba 1200xe before that)).

But, I'd have to haul around a separate graphics tablet (at least these days w/ USB you don't need a wall-wart power supply like my ThinkPad and Wacom ArtZ did), and the handwriting recognition is ``merely'' the print recognizer from Newton OS 2.x and doesn't learn, and there's no built-in support for gestures beyond basic editing for other aspects of pen UI.

Surely Apple could engineer a nice double-hinge setup which was elegant, durable, reliable and innovative (look at recent stories on interesting laptop designs from IBM as examples of what they should surpass).

So, I got a Fujitsu Stylistic instead, at least I didn't have to compromise and get a convertible, but got a true slate---for Mac OS X, I'd probably compromise though, especially if they added further pen-specific aspects to the UI.

I really miss PenPoint though (ran it on an NCR-3125), and have always kind of wished that Go had teamed up with HP, and that NeXT had gone w/ PenPoint for their portables (say w/ some kind of synch arrangement like to the Palm Pilot).

William

--
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.

Re:Wish they'd do a pen convertible at least by Durin_Deathless · 2003-10-22 05:48 · Score: 1

handwriting recognition is ``merely'' the print recognizer from Newton OS 2.x and doesn't learn
Rosetta may not be adaptive, but my father's MessagePad 2000 is really something as far as recognition goes. I have never seen better. It routinely gives 98% accuracy on the first time you use it, and it gets better over time as you get used to the device(slipperyness of the display, spacing of words, etc). Not too shabby for a device with less processing power than some of today's cell phones. I used it on Jaguar in the store, and found it to be just as good. That said, I like my keyboard a lot, since I type really fast.

--
You should use AdiumX on your Mac.
Re:Wish they'd do a pen convertible at least by Ophelan · 2003-10-22 06:12 · Score: 1

TUG? Wow, small world. One of my coworkers does quite a bit of work on TUG publications.
Re:Wish they'd do a pen convertible at least by WillAdams · 2003-10-22 06:22 · Score: 1

I type quickly too, but it's a nuisance to switch between mouse and keyboard when (for example) annotating .pdfs.

It's also a lot more convenient to just directly draw / sketch on a pen slate, than to draw in a paper notebook, go find a scanner, scan the drawing, import the drawing into a drawing program and then _redraw_ it (I'm fortunate to have a copy of FutureWave's SmartSketch, one of the coolest of PenPoint programs ;)

Also, on your father's MessagePad are you using Rosetta (the print recognizer which survives (as is) in InkWell), or Calligrapher (the cursive recognizer which is used (greatly improved) in Microsoft's TabletPC)?

William

--
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
Re:Wish they'd do a pen convertible at least by Durin_Deathless · 2003-10-22 09:52 · Score: 1

It is Rosetta/InkWell. True about switching, but for mass data entry, I love my keyboard.

--
You should use AdiumX on your Mac.
Re:Wish they'd do a pen convertible at least by WillAdams · 2003-10-22 15:37 · Score: 1

Naturally a keyboard is better for mass data entry, that goes w/o saying (esp. if it's a Dvorak keyboard).

Being able to hide away the keyboard and use a pen instead is a big win flexibility / portability wise (use while standing w/ system held naturally like a clipboard, use while interviewing or when taking notes in a class w/o throwing up the ``video wall'' and being considered rude, &c.)

And if one does much drawing at all....

William

--
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.

You may get money back... by CptTripps · 2003-10-22 02:12 · Score: 5, Interesting

If you bought it within the last 30 days, you'll get some money back if you ask. I bought a G4 desktop 5 days before the G5 was released, and I got $700 back from Apple. That's why I usually buy hardware from the Apple Store directly...you get perks like that. Either way, it's worth a call...

--

My .sig can beat up your honor student.

Re:You may get money back... by cortez · 2003-10-22 07:36 · Score: 1

My younger brother bought a pbg4 like a week before they released the new ones, so I'm going to have him call the store and see what he can do about gettin money back. You called the brick-and-mortar store? Did you have to do a lot of bitching, or just state what happened and hoped for the best?

--
Paizurishitetai desu ka?
Re:You may get money back... by ModernGeek · 2003-10-22 14:46 · Score: 1

I bought a G4 desktop 5 days before the G5 was released

What were you thinking?! But the $700 seems like it makes up for it :)

--
Sig: I stole this sig.
Re:You may get money back... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-23 11:57 · Score: 0

We bought a G3 iBook 18 days before the G4 came out, so we called Apple but were told that there's nothing they can do.

G4? Bah. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 02:15 · Score: 0, Troll

I don't want to start a holy war here, but what is the deal with you G4 fanatics? I've been sitting here at my freelance gig in front of a G4 (PowerBook G4/1Ghz) for about 20 minutes now while it attempts to copy a 17 Meg file from one folder on the hard drive to another folder. 20 minutes. At home, on my iBook G3 running MacOS 9.2, which by all standards should be a lot slower than this G4, the same operation would take about 2 minutes. If that.

In addition, during this file transfer, Limewire will not work. And everything else has ground to a halt. Even Camino is straining to keep up as I type this.

I won't bore you with the laundry list of other problems that I've encountered while working on various G4s, but suffice it to say there have been many, not the least of which is I've never seen a G4 that has run faster than its G3 counterpart, despite the G4's faster chip architecture. My B&W G3/300 with 8 megs of RAM runs faster than this 1 Ghz machine at times. From a productivity standpoint, I don't get how people can claim that the G4 is a superior machine.

G4 addicts, flame me if you'd like, but I'd rather hear some intelligent reasons why anyone would choose to use a G4 over other faster, cheaper, more stable systems.

oh no, what am i going to do? by bean_tmt · 2003-10-22 02:15 · Score: 1

Well... I had given up on ever getting a G4 laptop... but now, I am torn. Okay, so here's the deal. I will be starting the computer science program next semester (January) and I would enjoy having a laptop (or is it unnecessary for a poor college student?). I have never owned a laptop, but, like most of you I would like to get the most of my $1100-1300... I have also never owned a Macintosh nor used Mac OS X, but the idea of having something unix(ish) on a laptop is very appealing. Now I just don't know what to do... i could get the 14" 933 MHz ibook or get a asus m2n 1.4 GHz for the same price. I was hoping someone had the experience to point me in the right direction.

Re:oh no, what am i going to do? by Daniel+Dvorkin · 2003-10-22 02:50 · Score: 4, Informative

Well, as a student, I find having a laptop makes a huge difference in the amount of work I get done. My situation is a bit specialized -- I'm a grad student, and I work as a DBA 30 hrs/wk and take 6 credit hours (this is considered full-time in grad school, although I'd say it's more like 3/4 time) at locations that are fairly far apart. One machine -- my iBook -- serves as my sole computer for work, home, and school. I really like having everything accessible to me, all the time.

The iBook (mine is a 700 MHz G3, a little dated now) is a wonderful machine, and it handles every demand work and school can throw at it. Having the Unix command line accessible at a click is indispensable for both locations. The GUI part of OS X is absurdly easy to use and very powerful; if you're used to XP or any of the common Linux desktops, it will take you about a day to get comfortable with it and a month or two to get over the "I didn't know it could do that! OMFG, that's so cool!" reaction. I'd say that if you buy one of the G4 iBooks, you'll feel that your money was well spent.

Any caveats? Well, yeah. You probably want to spend a little extra on the 3-year AppleCare plan. With luck you'll never need it, but let's face it, life is rough on laptops. And unless you shoot your laptop, give it to your dog as a chewtoy, or drop it in salt water, AppleCare will take care of anything that's likely to go wrong. And, of course, as always, spend every penny you can on boosting the RAM; the default is never enough. But I think you can do all of the above and still stay within your $1,300 limit -- and you'll have a machine that no similarly-priced PC laptop can touch.

--
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
Re:oh no, what am i going to do? by Spyky · 2003-10-22 02:51 · Score: 1

I'm a CS master's student. I just bought a 15" 1.25. It is the perfect machine for what I do. Install fink, get Unix tools, install X-server. Now I use it exclusively, I hardly even touch my linux box anymore.

A mac really does make a perfect unix machine. If you were considering running windows on that asus laptop, I garuntee you will be happier running OS X on a Mac.

-Spyky
Re:oh no, what am i going to do? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 03:01 · Score: 0

If I had the choice, I'd go with the iBook. However, you may want to see what type of CS program your school runs; if they teach in .Net/C# you may be better off with a Windoze laptop. But if they do Java, c++ etc - iBook all the way!

The iBook gives you more bang out of the box, in my opinion. If I was going to be a CS undergrad again, then that'd be the way I'd go...
Re:oh no, what am i going to do? by ricosalomar · 2003-10-22 03:12 · Score: 0

Started CS last year with a refurb tiBook (my 1st mac). Our projects are JAVA/C/C++. Everything is great, I can work on projects anywhere, and 10.3 has a new development environment. The only problem is all the other students and teachers drooling over my machine.
Re:oh no, what am i going to do? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 05:19 · Score: 1, Interesting

im a fourth year CS student with an iBook 800. my university does alot with Java/C, so it works great. my wireless connection 'just works' inside thier building, everything compiles fine, etc.

everyone else with a laptop brings it to class, but thier all PCs. one day in a lecture, i got the pleasure of watching one laptop infected with that blaster worm propgate itself across the whole room while my iBook was unaffected. sucks for the i guess - i din't have to go all frantic.

in my networking class it's much nicer to have a laptop that 'just works' with a unix terminal instead of a 486 whose ISA nice card might be working today.

the only software i haven't been able to run is MS Project in my project management class last summer.

i think you'd really like OSX, and the price of this new G4 ibook is great. i wish i had a G4, but i'll do with a G3 ;)

also, there's something else an iBook can give you. i shit you not, but i have had those hot asian girls come up to me because of my iBook and start talking to me (normally i can guarantee you they wouldn't have.) iBooks/PBs stand out - they're lookers. if you use one in public, people /will/ come up and talk to you, at least about that really cool laptop your using. as a first year college student that's a big plus!
Re:oh no, what am i going to do? by ckd · 2003-10-22 05:47 · Score: 1

poor college student

Don't forget, student pricing is available via the online Apple Store for education. The $1100 base iBook is $1000, for example, and there's also an edu-only $950 model.
Re:oh no, what am i going to do? by pmz · 2003-10-22 06:02 · Score: 1

AppleCare

Extended warranties are useful only to those people whose investment in the technology is so large relative to their income and liquid savings that replacing a defective or broken unit would bankrupt them. So, unless in such a desparate situation, it is much better to never purchase an extended warranty on anything, even cars, and use the accumulated savings to either more than adequately take care of the rare breakage or put it to more useful things, like a vacation or reducing other debt.

For anyone who would like to defend the usefulness of extended warranties, your argument is squashed by the mere fact that companies and stores offer them in the first place. These warranties are extremely profitable, as their only business expenses are for accounting their profits while producing only a slip of paper for people to take home and file away.

We aren't talking things of the scale of homeowner's insurance or health insurance...we're talking about a computer that costs under $1000. I recommend foregoing AppleCare and anything similar and taking a significant other out to a nice dinner, because a single enjoyable evening beats the value of an extended warranty ten fold.

--
Healthcare article at Kuro5hin
Re:oh no, what am i going to do? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 06:25 · Score: 0

Well, I got a PB 12" on sale when Apple came out with the new ones. Same price as the lowest end iBook. I sure don't regret it. Having OS 10 and all my files in my backpack is a huge plus. Look at it this way. I've been using a computer since 1994 and everything I've ever generated is now in my backpack whenever I need it. :-)

Go for it. You won't regret it. Just make sure you get a wireless card. :-)
Re:oh no, what am i going to do? by truenoir · 2003-10-22 06:47 · Score: 1

I dunno, I spent $60 on a $200 (open box, from $320) TV...which wound up breaking 18 months later and they gave me a brand new $250 TV to replace it (plus I still have another 18 months of coverage at Sears). Saved me almost the original cost of my TV. Then again I've had other components that have never had issues in years (like my Powerbook). It's a gamble at any rate, and depends on the product. I personally think it's a good idea on laptops though, since repair parts and costs on them are insane.
Re:oh no, what am i going to do? by pmz · 2003-10-22 07:21 · Score: 1

Citing one instance of a warranty paying off when the 100 other people who also bought warranties never used them is not sufficient justification for the warranties as a whole. Extended warranties are like gambling at a casino, where the casino knows the odds and the gamblers don't. This is why the warranties exist, because they are almost pure profit (the cost of the occasional replacement TV pales in comparison to the thousands of dollars they rake in on the warranty fees). Additionally, the replacement TV was worth $250 only from your point of view, not the wholesale point of view of the retailer (I wouldn't be suprised if $60 covered most of their loss on the replacment).

I view extended warranties to be of similar financial worth as the Powerball Lottery Retirement Plan, where two people will retire multi-millionaires while everyone else retires broke.

--
Healthcare article at Kuro5hin
Re:oh no, what am i going to do? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 08:45 · Score: 0

I'm sure that some would not prefer this, but I like using Yellow Dog Linux on my iBook. For me, it's more pleasant to do my "serious" work with that than OS X. (I use software such as Mozilla, GNU Emacs, gcc, ssh, LaTeX, etc.) Perhaps newer versions of OS X are better (I have 10.1).
Anyway, the networking is about as simple in YDL as it is in OS X, and the SOUND WORKS! For years, I saw the sound not work on x86 Linux installations. Surely this has improved, and maybe the x86 box I was using was flaky about the sound, but I'm still impressed with that.
And, with the bootloader that comes with YDL, I have a dual-boot OS X / YDL system, so I can still use OS X when I want to. And as another poster mentioned, the Apple hardware looks spiffy. This may not be the most important factor, but it has value nevertheless!
Re:oh no, what am i going to do? by sexecutioner · 2003-10-22 11:38 · Score: 1

Is it me, or does this sound like it just came right from the marketing droids at apple??

Having the Unix command line accessible at a click is indispensable for both locations.

This bit especially is marketing speak.

If this is a legit post then, oh well, you sound like a marketing droid Daniel.
Re:oh no, what am i going to do? by geekwench · 2003-10-22 12:33 · Score: 1

Oh, for the want of a mod point...
Obviously, having the Unix command line available is useful, if you do any sort of DBA-type work. Duh. I could (I won't, but I could) sit here and dictate chapter and verse about how my Caphalon skillet is incredibly useful. This does not make me an employee of -- or shill for -- Caphalon cookware. To paraphrase Freud: sometimes a personal endorsement is just a personal endorsement.

--
Doing my level best to piss off the religious right wing...
Re:oh no, what am i going to do? by binarybits · 2003-10-23 01:30 · Score: 1

I bought my iBook when I was a junior studying CS. I managed to do most of my CS-related homework on it without problems-- you can get compilers or interpreters for most major languages, and Panther comes with an X server, allowing you to run other Unix programs.

I say go for it.
Re:oh no, what am i going to do? by jaoswald · 2003-10-23 04:21 · Score: 1

the only software i haven't been able to run is MS Project in my project management class last summer.

This is such a major gap in MSOffice for Mac OS X. People complain about the Windows monopoly, and the Office monopoly, but nothing compares to the utter lack of any visible competition for MS Project.

The sad thing is that MS Project has to be the most mediocre, frustrating, ill-featured member of the MS Office "family." If Resource Levelling changes my task durations one more time, I'm going to go stark raving mad. (Yeah, I know my task somehow got marked "effort driven"...)

Browsing Apple's Mac OS X Resource page, I did encounter PMX. It claims to import .mpp files reasonably well.
Re:oh no, what am i going to do? by Daniel+Dvorkin · 2003-10-23 05:17 · Score: 1

:) Thanks.

I did realize after I made that post that it sounded a bit like market-speak, but hell, it's the truth. Being able to get to the Unix command line, without having to log into someone else's server to do it, really is so incredibly useful to what I do for both work and school that these days I wonder how I ever got along without it.

--
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
Re:oh no, what am i going to do? by sexecutioner · 2003-10-23 19:05 · Score: 1

Sure thing, the command prompt is awesome. I do agree with everything in Daniel's post, I was just making a glib comment on his writing style, that's all...
Re:oh no, what am i going to do? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-11-02 04:09 · Score: 0

Nice laptop. Too bad you're a dumbass for having overpaid $1,000.

Re:Does it really matter anymore? by lost_n_mad · 2003-10-22 02:15 · Score: 1

You can find a light, 12" laptop with an average of five hours of life even with use of a DVD player for $500? Buy it and share man!

--
TANSTAAFL

15" powerbook by simpl3x · 2003-10-22 02:19 · Score: 1

a bought 4 when they first came out like 3 years ago. they run osx fine with 1g of ram. great purchases, and aside from employees dropping them, absolutely no problems. my son's ibook has been great also, and runs osx and some games fine for his needs, but i would recommend a g4 for anything intensive.

Differences between PowerBook and iBook by laird · 2003-10-22 02:19 · Score: 4, Informative

My first reaction was "great, the iBook is the same as the PowerBook I bought a few months ago". After a few minutes digging, though, there are some real differences, though they're subtle. So Apple managed to give the core benefits of the PB to the iBook at a somewhat lower price, which is a good thing, even if it does reduce the product differentiation a bit.

The differences I can see are:
- Bluetooth is extra (an internal module, like AirPort).
- No SuperDrive option. This is a big deal to me -- I do backups on DVD-R's (you don't want to back 60 GB onto CD-R's!).
- No DVI out (also none on my PB, but there is on new ones)
- White plastic instead of metal case.
- 0.3 pounds heavier, perhaps 1/2 inch thicker.
- 10 GB smaller hard drives
- Plastic probably more impact resistant than metal (but also leads to case being thicker).
- $500 more for PowerBook.

So overall, a tradeoff. I'm still as happy as ever with my 12" PB, but now more people can buy most of what I've got, and while that makes it a little less exclusive, that's really a good thing... :-)

--
Enable 3D printed prosthetics!

Re:Differences between PowerBook and iBook by valkraider · 2003-10-22 03:57 · Score: 2, Informative

The powerbooks also have larger/faster cache, and a faster system bus and main memory. I don't know enough about the graphics cards - but they are probably better in the powerbooks as well. Basically the new iBook looks like the first revision iLamp iMac specwise...
Re:Differences between PowerBook and iBook by glazik · 2003-10-22 04:22 · Score: 1

One HUGE difference, IMHO, is the maximum supported resolution of the LCD. It's a mere 1024x768 on the iBook.

1024 just doesn't cut it for me.
Re:Differences between PowerBook and iBook by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 04:22 · Score: 1, Informative

Another difference, and a showstopper for me: the absence of a PC Card slot. The 12" PowerBook doesn't have one either. For us with pro soundcards (think RME Hammerfall DSP), this is, well, a no way.
Re:Differences between PowerBook and iBook by rsmith-mac · 2003-10-22 04:36 · Score: 2, Informative

The 12" PB is exacltly the same though. The only difference is that the PB can also drive an external screen to ungodly resolutions, instead of 1024.
Re:Differences between PowerBook and iBook by gnudutch · 2003-10-22 08:15 · Score: 1

Here is another major difference, for design and usability freaks like me. The 12" Powerbook has all cable connections on one side of the laptop: left. The 12" Ibook has most on the left, but the power connection is on the right. It's a small design choice, but Powerbook did it right.

Actually it looks like 12" Powerbook is the only Apple laptop will all cables on one side. (QTVR is fun)
Re:Differences between PowerBook and iBook by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 10:42 · Score: 1, Insightful

The differences that led me to buy a new 15" PowerBook over a comparable iBook actually had nothing to do with processing power. An 800 or 900 MHz G3 would have been fine with me as I spend most of my time in BBEdit and Terminal. If the iBooks have not been significantly improved in the following areas, then I would still buy a PowerBook over a new iBook.

I haven't noticed these 3 PB features in the comments so far:

1.) Noticeably better quality display. I don't know what the technical details are but when you line up any iBook next to any PowerBook, the differences in contrast, color saturation, etc. are like night and day. The iBook appears fuzzy and washed-out while the PowerBook looks sharp, detailed and rich in color. And, yes, I adjusted brightness on both machines.

2.) Vastly superior keyboard. The keyboard action on the PowerBook is the best I have ever felt on any laptop - period. The iBook keyboard feels cheap and sloppy by comparison.

3.) Lid-closed operation. I have a 20" Cinema Display at home so this feature allowed me to entirely replace my PowerMac with the PowerBook. The DVI out (not available on the iBook) was also neccessary to make this work without losing image quality or features. Another plus is Apple's flexible extended desktop display support (not available on the iBook) which lets me set up the Cinema Display as my primary monitor and the PB as the extended area. So I can simply pop open the PB when I need some extra desktop space and it handles the transition on the fly. Close the PB, everything moves back to the Cinema Display - simple and intuitive.

None of these features are terribly sexy and they don't carry much weight in the context of an ad, brochure, or feature highlights list, but they are critical to the overall quality and flexibility of your computing experience. High-end visual and tactile feedback are both productivity and health issues and, along with the features mentioned elsewhere, still easily justify the PB's premium price.
Re:Differences between PowerBook and iBook by Roguelazer · 2003-10-22 10:52 · Score: 1

Also note that the PowerBook sports the NVIDIA GeForce FX graphics chip, whilst the iBook has the ATI Mobility Radeon 9200. Both fairly good chips. We all know why this is happening, though. I forsee a G5-based Powerbook with a next-generation graphics card being released in either mid-November or next February- either just in time for the Christmas rush, or long enough after it that people won't know it's coming when Christmas hits, and will buy current generation products.

--
My Systems
Re:Differences between PowerBook and iBook by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 15:55 · Score: 0

There appears to be no Airport Extreme option either.
Re:Differences between PowerBook and iBook by JamieF · 2003-10-22 18:50 · Score: 1

They *just* released an upgraded line of PowerBooks, and the G5 desktops just started shipping. What the hell makes you think that Apple would then turn around and ship a G5 laptop three weeks later?

Oh, I know... so that they can hide them inside the Big Mac cluster to get >100% efficiency and reach #1 on the Top 500 list!
Re:Differences between PowerBook and iBook by Roguelazer · 2003-10-22 23:06 · Score: 1

Because they just shipped an updated iBook that does almost all of what the current PB does except DVD burning, for 1/3 less price-wise ($1100 vs $1600).

--
My Systems
Re:Differences between PowerBook and iBook by JamieF · 2003-10-27 18:00 · Score: 1

OK, I gather now that you must have intended your previous prediction as sarcasm... it's hard to be sure given the unbelievable quantity and intensity of Apple-worshipping zealots (the same people who believe in all benchmarks that favor Apple, and instantly disregard all benchmarks that don't).

Malcolm X? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 02:19 · Score: 1, Funny

What's up with the Malcolm X references? The 10.3 box is black with a silver X (a la movie) and the OS is called Panther...

Re:Malcolm X? by mrklin · 2003-10-22 07:13 · Score: 1

Because OS MLK just doesn't seem as cool as OS X.
Re:Malcolm X? by GOD_ALMIGHTY · 2003-10-22 07:27 · Score: 1

Malcom X wasn't a Black Panther, he was Nation of Islam. But I do agree there are a lot of civil rights coincidences there in the naming. Maybe it's the industry making up for mistakes like:

Correcting the MLK error

I ran across this yesterday looking at Rational PurifyPlus docs. I couldn't believe the techwriter didn't see the obvious connotation. In this doc MLK stands for Memory LeaK.

The lesson is, take computer industry word usage on face value, cause otherwise you're going to find double entendres everywhere.

--
Arrogance is Confidence which lacks integrity. -- me

Accidental leak? by ldm · 2003-10-22 02:19 · Score: 1

The Register reported that dabs.com had made an advert reading "iBook G4" but dabs claimed it was a mistake... in this case I think it was, but it's still interesting. This update to the iBook (and eMac) line seems to have come completely out of the blue.

Re:Accidental leak? by squiggleslash · 2003-10-22 04:37 · Score: 1

Given the "leak" was of a 500MHz machine with a 15" LCD, I think it's fair to say it wasn't based on anything real.

--
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.

steve's just on old con-man... by simpl3x · 2003-10-22 02:23 · Score: 1

damn him! he's just pulled another $1100.00 out of my wallet!

Re:steve's just on old con-man... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 04:42 · Score: 0

Sure it wasn't out of your manhole?

Re:Mac problems by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 02:24 · Score: 0

Excellent post, still makes me laugh! Please post this on Macslash as often as you can, I've been putting it up there, and I get plenty of ppl that fall for it. It's oh so fun to tell 'em YHBT.

Wow. by supabeast! · 2003-10-22 02:25 · Score: 1

As much as I criticize Apple, now and then they do something I really, really like.

This time I actually let out an entirely involuntary orgasmic moan at my desk.

Re:Wow. by dlosey · 2003-10-22 04:02 · Score: 2, Funny

This time I actually let out an entirely involuntary orgasmic moan at my desk.

Sorry I just ... can't.... .. resist.

Did you tell the secretary she can get out from under your desk and go back to hers?

;)
Re:Wow. by supabeast! · 2003-10-22 05:57 · Score: 1

She? ewwww! I keep a midget frat boy down there!

nice, but... by ametzger · 2003-10-22 02:27 · Score: 0

there is a good part to this, however, there are downsides. if you use these computers on your lap, they most likely will be hotter. this is a good step, though, towards apple having the first 64 bit proccesor in a laptop, which would be uber nice. still a while yet, though methinks.

Re:nice, but... by phobix · 2003-10-22 12:34 · Score: 1

Athlon 64 Laptops are available now. So I don't think apple will be the first with a 64bit laptop.

http://www.voodoopc.com/systems/m855.aspx

There are a few others, but thats the only one I know off hand. Pretty good considering the chip was only released a few weeks ago.

--
- The early worm gets eaten by the bird.
Re:nice, but... by dadragon · 2003-10-23 17:47 · Score: 1

Tadpole has UltraSparc laptops that run Solaris, they've been around for a while. There were also DEC Alpha laptops for a whole.

--
God save our Queen, and Heaven bless The Maple Leaf Forever!

excuse me! but did you read the specs? by simpl3x · 2003-10-22 02:27 · Score: 1

"Asus' latest model, the M2N, is sold in the US only as a barebone notebook ((i.e., no CPU, RAM, hard drive or operating system). However, it does have Intel's 855GM chipset with integrated graphics and Intel's WLAN module (Pro/ WLAN2100), and that makes it worthy of the name Centrino. For this review, we used a 1.6 GHz Pentium-M processor with this model."

and, how does this compare to an iBook? it's like buying a car with no seats, engine, wheels/tires, and an empty gas tank! but, they cost the same amount! huh?

Re:excuse me! but did you read the specs? by bean_tmt · 2003-10-22 02:33 · Score: 1

Yeah, i read the specs, but they sell on pricewatch.com with the "guts" for about the same price as the ibook, sorry for not clarifying that.

Asus (Notebooks - Windows OS)Centrino Notebook,Asus M2N , Pentium M1.4Ghz, 256MB DDR, 20GB, DVD/CD-RW Combo+ WIN XP COA. $ 1266

or

256MB DDR266 (128MB built-in & 128MB SO-DIMM)
40GB Ultra ATA drive
Combo Drive (DVD-ROM/CD-RW)
AirPort Extreme Card
14.1-inch TFT XGA display
933MHz PowerPC G4
ATI Mobility Radeon 9200 w/ 32MB DDR video memory

Subtotal $1,288.00

Re:Does it really matter anymore? by alecto · 2003-10-22 02:28 · Score: 1

Car analogies are weak--the Audi really does go faster than the Kia. The iBook does NOT run faster than a comparably priced Intel laptop.

Turn her out! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 02:33 · Score: 0

Surely you wife has a good enough pussy/mouth/ass that she can use them to make a little money on the side?

Before I run to buy one .... by sumirati · 2003-10-22 02:43 · Score: 1

... does anybody know if there are other resellers in Germany than Gravis and Apple itself?

And can someone tell me why the add-on options for the iBook in the Apple Online Store don't apply for the Students Rabatt?

Anyhow, the new 14'' iBook is pretty much the machine I want + iPod, + iSight, + 640 MB RAM, ....

... uh, now the price hurts again.

Re:Before I run to buy one .... by Jeff+Kelly · 2003-10-22 06:13 · Score: 1

Try www.mac-kauf.de for a comprehensive list of online retailers in germany

Which add-on options do you mean? The iPod iSight and similar add-ons are all available for the student prices.

Regards

Jeff

iTunes by MORTAR_COMBAT! · 2003-10-22 02:43 · Score: 3, Interesting

I actually had my wife considering an iBook for her next laptop, because she wanted iTunes. But now that she's got iTunes on her existing (Windows) laptop, there will be no iminent iBook purchase.

Thanks Mr. Jobs.

--
MORTAR COMBAT!

Re:iTunes by bojan · 2003-10-22 03:09 · Score: 0

one night, after some hot steamy action, tell her you'd like her to get her Mac on...
Re:iTunes by Lewisham · 2003-10-22 05:42 · Score: 1

I think if your wife wanted a laptop simply based on it's MP3 jukebox software, she'd probably go mental at the lack of a Start menu anyway! ;)

Excellent by FrostedWheat · 2003-10-22 02:50 · Score: 3, Interesting

I was considering buying one of these yesterday, but decided to wait a week to see if I can find something better. Glad I did now :)

One thing I would like to ask those who have an iBook already: What's the battery life like? It sayed 6 hours in the UK Apple store for the pre-G4 12" version, which would be amazing if it was true. They've changed it to the rather vague "extra-long battery life" for the G4 version.

Re:Excellent by Mister+J · 2003-10-22 03:19 · Score: 2, Informative

My iBook (now two revs old) certainly does manage the claimed battery life (with the brightness down and airport off etc).

--
Windows moves in mysterious ways, its crashes to perform
Re:Excellent by kalidasa · 2003-10-22 04:22 · Score: 1

My iBook *almost* manages 5 hours if I put the brightness on barely visible, shut off the airport, shut down the sound, lower the processor speed, and use very low-resource stuff (i.e., not the DVD). It gets about 3 hours at my standard use: with brightness at 50%, sound at 80%, processor speed at high, and airport on (about 2 with a DVD and the airport off). YMMV. Important thing is to know how to reset the PMU and PM preferences when necessary (after upgrading to 10.2.7, I was getting 1 1/2 hours of battery time at standard use; after I upgraded to 10.2.8, I reset the PMU, and it's back up to 3 hours).
Re:Excellent by n8_f · 2003-10-22 05:26 · Score: 1

The specs still claim 6 hours. Maybe that page wasn't up when you looked. The battery capacity is up 3 watt-hours over the previous, 50 to 47 for the old iBook (and the new PowerBook 12").

As far as actual length, 3 hours under normal use is much closer. That is what I get on my iBook 500. It depends on what you do, of course. As with all laptop manufacturers, those battery life claims are the absolute maximum; probably backlight one above off and left to sit there for the entire time. But the Apples have been getting Centrino battery life for years.
Re:Excellent by GauteL · 2003-10-22 07:39 · Score: 1

I get around 4,5 hours battery life on my 4 month old iBook 900 with 12" screen.

Cancel it and order again by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 02:58 · Score: 0

You can do that.

Re:Powerbook premium--fan? by Sara+Chan · 2003-10-22 02:59 · Score: 1

What about fans? The PowerBooks have fans, which I really dislike. One of the great things about the previous iBooks is that they ran truly truly silent! I don't know if the new G4 iBooks have fans, but I sure hope not.

Act quickly by Iowaguy · 2003-10-22 03:04 · Score: 1

I believe you still have time to cancel the order, if you act soon. Apple is pretty good about this. Now, which product you want is up to you.... -Iowa

--
"He who laughs last, didn't get the joke."-Cap

Re:Act quickly by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 11:18 · Score: 0

Thanks guys, but the Powerbook is still a stronger machine, so I'll stick with that.

But this timing pattern seems to repeat over and over again. I advise anyone else buying stuff from Apple to get me to buy something else first so they can have a crack at getting a price drop.
YLFI

PaulBunyanBook by zerocircle · 2003-10-22 03:06 · Score: 1

Just got myself a 12' PowerBook

Holy crow! What's the resolution on that?

Re:PaulBunyanBook by the+web · 2003-10-22 07:19 · Score: 1

128000 x 102400.

I mean, it does have a ATi 980000 pro in it afterall.

There's also a firewire 800 port....er....I mean 800 firewire ports.

--
__
Thou hast besquirted me, O leotarded one.

Re:Mac problems by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 03:08 · Score: 0

I do use my windows machine continuously, with several memory and processor intensive programs, that write gigabytes of data to the hard drive, and that frequently crap-out mid write because the software is still being developed.

And the OS still hasn't crapped out. So what's your point? XP and OSX are both very stable. The only OS I've had crap out on me doing this is Linux (due to its shitty device support). But give me an OSX box with a programming environment anywhere CLOSE to .NET and then we'll talk.

Sure its pretty, but when it gets down to it, I need DirectX, performance monitors that are easily programmable, a centralized data access method, remoting and RPC that doesn't take 15 minutes to deploy a new compile (umm J2EE), and media player components that I can include in my application with no time at all.

Macs are nice, ObjectiveC is not too bad, but as a dev you are nowhere as productive as you are on a Windows environment.

consider talking to a lawyer by green+pizza · 2003-10-22 03:09 · Score: 0, Offtopic

Having bought a 900 Mhz G3 iBook just after they came out, I am moved to tears to see the G4 iBooks now.

Yeah, Apple pulled another fast one, making even more enemies and possibly breaking the law in more than a few places.

You may have a legal case here, though I don't think you would get much more than a new iBook out of the deal. (And depending on the cost of a lawyer, it may not even be worth going after).

Re:consider talking to a lawyer by MoneyT · 2003-10-22 11:16 · Score: 2, Insightful

You're kidding right? Talk to a lawer? He bought the iBook just after it came out, and that would make it sometime back in April. Apple has a standard upgrade pattern of roughly 6 months between updates. At the time, he obviously thought it was worth it, and common sense dictates that computers will get faster.

The only case he would have is if Apple guaranteed him that this would be the fastest iBook ever. And since that's unreasonable, there is no case.

--
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984

G4 has a much better FPU by willy_me · 2003-10-22 03:11 · Score: 2, Informative

then the G3. So the Powerbook should still be significantly faster.

Re:Powerbook premium--fan? by Ignominious+Cow+Herd · 2003-10-22 03:13 · Score: 3, Informative

All iBook (dual usb) have a fan. Take it apart and look. Normally can't hear it though.

--
Lump lingered last in line for brains, and the ones she got were sorta rotten and insane.

There are Thinkpads, and there are THINKPADS... by MsGeek · 2003-10-22 03:14 · Score: 5, Interesting

IBM laptops are designed for a six month life cycle. After that, the execs who pay big bucks for them are supposed to pass them on to juniors and get themselves a new laptop. The passed on laptop happily fails within a month or two, leaving the junior owner in a tight spot. Ruggedized. HAH!

Perhaps you speak of the newer IBM Thinkpads that were basically designed and built in Taiwan by Acer. However, the Thinkpads that were IBM-designed and built in IBM-owned facilities *are* that tough.

I just plunked down three bills to get myself an off-lease 600E. The thing is *built*. The finish is completely coated in a rubberized coating so that even french-fry fingers won't slip. It seems to be made with a metal frame and plastic shell over the metal. Even though the thing only weighs 5 pounds, it feels very, very solid. (Yeah, I know there are much lighter lappies out there but this is the lightest one I have ever owned.)

Oh yeah...this is the only IBM Thinkpad that Big Blue took the trouble to get Linux certified. Here's a link to an old /. article about it.. The big gripe in the article was about how everything but the modem worked. Guess what: IBM did write and release Linux drivers for the MWave modem in this model! It took them a while, but they are out there now.

You can get 600Es cheap at Computer Geeks and at other places that sell off-lease Thinkpads...I suspect the reason why they are all over the place now is because they were popular around the apex of the Dot-bomb boom, and now there's a glut because so many of the folks who were carrying those around are now baristas at Starbucks. ^_^

Oh yeah, to pull this back on topic: the only thing built tougher than a Thinkpad is a PowerBook. Ph33r the mighty Wallstreet/Lombard/Pismo...those are tough mofos. Same with the iToiletSeat iMacs...those were designed with K-12 students in mind, just like the legendary eMate NewtonOS device. Even the old 100-series PowerBooks are tough as nails. And everyone I know with an Ice iBook has stories of how durable their iBook is.

--
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.

Re:There are Thinkpads, and there are THINKPADS... by Jeremy+Erwin · 2003-10-22 03:28 · Score: 1

Even the old 100-series PowerBooks are tough as nails.
Nope. They can shatter. Before that little incident, the backlight was acting up--a defect that, unfortunately, has also appeared in the powerbook 1400, as well as the ibook 500.
Re:There are Thinkpads, and there are THINKPADS... by MsGeek · 2003-10-22 03:31 · Score: 1

I dropped my PB145 a few times in its lifetime, and it still was fine. I wound up having to relinquish the thing to one of my co-workers on this magazine project I was involved with, but it was in working order when I passed it on.

--
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
Re:There are Thinkpads, and there are THINKPADS... by smittyoneeach · 2003-10-22 05:06 · Score: 2, Informative

My biggest tip, regardless of brand, is to keep that thin bit of packing that sits between the screen and the keyboard when you first unpack your .
Whenever you're hitting the road, slide that bad little piece of non-biodegradable love in there, so that your keyboard and/or pointing device (if you've got one of those wee joysticks amidships) doesn't trash your screen.

--
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
Re:There are Thinkpads, and there are THINKPADS... by Jon+Abbott · 2003-10-22 05:07 · Score: 1

Yeah, I know there are much lighter lappies out there but this is the lightest one I have ever owned.
That is definitely interesting. Someone else told me a story very similar recently, but when they said "lappies", I punched them in the face and cut their balls off.

(That quote was blatantly ripped from an old Slashdot post... No harm intended.)

--
Slashdot's first reaction to VMware
Re:There are Thinkpads, and there are THINKPADS... by binary+paladin · 2003-10-22 11:30 · Score: 1

I had an old Fujitsu Lifebook. I don't remember the model number, but it was burly. It was a PII 266 and it had one of those weird sorta joystick pointer things (which in my opinion was the best pointer device on a laptop, but given that they don't use them anymore, I'm in some sort of a minority).

That bastard was sturdy! I got really pissed off about work one day and threw it like a frisbee into my wall. It missed hitting the studs directly and broke through the sheetrock. Still works just fine. Ironically I traded it for a Ruger Security Six.

oh fuck by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 03:21 · Score: 0

... let the worship begin.

Re:The 7 stages of grief for highly effective peop by Vengie · 2003-10-22 03:30 · Score: 5, Funny

If you're an apple user, chances are good the girls *AND* the guys want to be with you.

O:-)

hehehe

--
When in doubt, parenthesize. At the very least it will let some poor schmuck bounce on the % key in vi. (Larry Wall)

Just bought refurbed 867Mhz PB by Alpha_Geek · 2003-10-22 03:30 · Score: 2, Interesting

I was about to scream when I saw the 12" G4 iBook for $1100. I paid $1200 for a refurbed 12" 867Mhz PB (Direct from Apple, got a 20GB iPod for $270, too!). Then I realized that if I added the bluetooth module (yes, I use it) and bumped the HD to 40GB (what I have in the PB), it would only be about $25 cheaper. I'm not upset now. I'd still buy the refurbed PB for the slight speed bump and cool design.

Re:Buy this! by ducman · 2003-10-22 03:33 · Score: 1

I can't seem to get Photoshop and Office to run on Linux. Safari and iTunes both seem to have problems, too. How did you get them to work? I guess my rsync backup scripts would work, at least.

--
"We have nothing in common, your attitude annoys me, and your political views are appalling."

Re:Buy this! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 03:46 · Score: 0

Most people don't get it and simply think Apple is selling a "pretty OS" and "expensive hardware".

We got Macs at work, OS X is very nice (pretty AND powerful/stable), and I was simply waiting for Apple to lower the price/upgrade the eMacs.

Apple, here I come. Microsoft, bite my shiny metal ass.

Re:Buy this! by valkraider · 2003-10-22 03:50 · Score: 1

Not to mention finding a 802.11g card that is supported under Linux, and then installing it... Linux: PnHnCnSnR (Plug-n-Hack-n-Compile-n-Swear=n=Redo)

Can anyone explain why by h4mmer5tein · 2003-10-22 03:51 · Score: 1

It costs 1000 more to buy the same spec Powerbook in the UK than in the US?

From the US store a 17" G4 powerbook with 2GB ram, faster HDD, backpack, extra battery and chuck in an Ipod for good measure comes in at 2978 at todays exchange rate. The same spec system from the UK store costs 3978. Judging by this I'd be better off ordering from the US and having it shipped. It would even be cheaper to get a flight to New York and buy one in person.

I have to admit I'm not actually very likely to actually buy one.... my other half might have something to say about it if I blow the budget for outr new bathroom on a laptop :P

Re:Can anyone explain why by daviddennis · 2003-10-22 04:30 · Score: 1

Before you get the flight, make sure you know what the import duties are on the Mac. That could be a lot of the difference. Also note that spending a night in Manhattan's pretty expensive nowadays, even if you stay in a dive. You might want to consider Florida since the weather's better, hotels are cheaper, and there's still an Apple Store in Miami.

If you can straighten out those issues, it might - in all seriousness - be a good way to subsidize a vacation.

Car Magazine (UK) has had a lot of articles mentioning extremely high UK pricing for cars. A lot of people go to a European country, buy their car and re-import it into the UK to get around it. This makes me think that you might want to check Mac prices in Europe before you fly all the way to the US.

I don't know why the UK prices are so high, then, but it seems to not only be computers. Perhaps the cost of doing business in the UK is high.

I'm sorry I don't have a definitive answer for you, but hopefully this is some good food for thought.

D
Re:Can anyone explain why by fr0dicus · 2003-10-22 04:39 · Score: 1

Import duty would take a HEAVY chunk out of that price difference I'm afraid :(
Re:Can anyone explain why by robosmurf · 2003-10-22 04:46 · Score: 1

Do remember that the UK price includes the 17.5% UK sales tax, which makes a large difference.
Of course, it is still much more expensive, but not by as large a margin as it might seem.
However, there are some really messed up things with Apple's pricing. For instance, PowerBook 12in RAM upgrade to 768MB costs 230 pounds, but the same upgrade from the Accessories store costs 160 (and the equivalent chip from crucial is less than 90).
Re:Can anyone explain why by h4mmer5tein · 2003-10-22 20:42 · Score: 1

Well according to this the import duty on Portable Automatic Data Processing Equipment ( Laptops ) is 0%.
This ties in with the fact that Sony have recently successfully got the PS2 recategorized as Automatic Data Processing Equipment in order to avoid import duties into the EU. The ability to run Linux on it was apparently a deciding factor :)
The TARIC code is 8471300000 if anyone else wants to have a play.
Given all that, even with 17.5% VAT in the UK I still save over GBP800.
On a side note it's even more expensive to order from the continent. In the French store it works out a GBP4077!

Always seems to be the case... by ducomputergeek · 2003-10-22 03:54 · Score: 1

My business partner just got a brand new 12" powerbook about 3 weeks ago. More sleek that this 1 year old 14" 700Mhz G3 iBook, but overall, I must say that I cannot complain. Of course he bought his laptop a week before Panther's release date was announced. He didn't listen to me when I told him to wait another month. He gets the "I want it now attitude" and goes and buys anything the sales man will sell him.

I have all the attachments for the iBook to hook this up to TV's via RCA or Svideo, but since the iBook has the VGA output port and powerbooks DVI, they won't work with each other. I understand the reasoning, but still it doesn't make a lot of since.

I bought this laptop about 6 weeks before 10.2 was annouced, but I couldn't wait anylonger as I was getting ready to leave for a semester abroad and 10.2 wasn't shipping until after I would have left and I wanted a good month to make sure it all worked correctly before going.

This iBook will proably last me another 2 or 3 years at least, if not longer. Chances are my next purchase will be a G5 tower sometime after the first of the year. Honestly I am waiting for Final Cut Pro to add 64-bit extensions before buying a new tower.

--
"The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.

Re:Always seems to be the case... by Drakonian · 2003-10-22 14:16 · Score: 1

Have him try putting in his serial number on Apple's Up-to-date web page. I ordered my 12" PB on Sept 23 and still qualified. And I was just informed Panther shipped today. :)

--
Random is the New Order.

Longer... by SuperKendall · 2003-10-22 03:54 · Score: 1

Given how new the computer would be, you're almost compelled to wipe the HD before the upgrade - which stretches things out a bit longer, and also means that you would be loathe to install much the first few days. Who wants that? I'm with the original poster, I would just wait a few days when it said it would ship with the new OS (or go down to an Apple store and hope for 10% off G5's the day of Panther's release).

--
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley

You may think you have won this round... by SuperKendall · 2003-10-22 03:58 · Score: 1

But wait until you get your first iTunes bill!! Then we will see if you have avoided the Jobs Monetary Distorion Field, Mr Mortar.

--
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley

Re:You may think you have won this round... by MORTAR_COMBAT! · 2003-10-22 06:45 · Score: 1

First bill was $1.98 for the 2 songs downloaded.

--
MORTAR COMBAT!
Re:You may think you have won this round... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 12:42 · Score: 0

+ tax :-(

At least that was for me (billing address in Washington DC)

G3 eBook coming? by Johnny+Mozzarella · 2003-10-22 03:58 · Score: 1

Its the next logical step.
eMac -> iMac -> PowerMac
eBook -> iBook -> PowerBook

I think Apple can do an eBook right.
Compact form factor.
High resolution screen.
Simple intuitive interface.

It would also be cool if Apple allowed you to buy books and magazines in PDF format to read on your new eBook like the iTunes Music Store.

Video mirroring? We need extended desktop!!! by Dufffader · 2003-10-22 04:06 · Score: 1

I just noticed that there's no multiple monitor support on the ibook G4. I find using an extended desktop spanning 2 monitors to be significantly more efficient to whatever I'm working on.

At least for me, that's enough for me to justify a powerbook 12" instead of the ibook.

Re:Video mirroring? We need extended desktop!!! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 06:52 · Score: 0

There will be a 3rd party fix for this real soon. Same as the old ibook. Some German will write a script (in German) that enables true multi-monitor support and you'll be able to extend your desktop by clicking "Ja!" a couple of times.

That was one of the first things I did with my 800Mhz G3 ibook.
Re:Video mirroring? We need extended desktop!!! by pmwanner · 2003-10-22 23:11 · Score: 1

As far as I know, there is also a firmware modification that can be made directly, but whether the new Radeon 9200 chipset in the iBook G4's will permit this remains to be seen.

Nothing Worse Than A Arrogant Dick by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 04:08 · Score: 0

Especially a 3 inch Apple zealot's dick.

Re:Apple bitches by blackmonday · 2003-10-22 04:15 · Score: 1

Check the number of comments within Apple articles vs. the rest. We love Apple stories on Slashdot, they generate great discussions. BTW you can remove Apple stories from your main page if you want. Problem solved.

Obviously hundreds of /. readers care... by ErnstKompressor · 2003-10-22 04:19 · Score: 1

Or else the story wouldn't be posted you worthless sack of opinionated horse shit. Your pathetic attempt at being an asshole -- er, I mean sharing your 'insight' -- is so unappreciated that I am sure if there were a mechanism to ban you from participating in these discussions, you would be swiftly kicked. Get over yourself. No one cares what you think, AC, so get a life. The anonymous 'fuck Apple users' shit is tired. Find a hobby other than venting your own self-hatred and delusion at others who have done nothing more to you than share an interest in computing. Otherwise, go suck your own dick, you infantile jackass.

--
We apologise for the fault in this post. Those responsible have been sacked. -- Signed RICHARD M. NIXON

that's not a plus by penguin7of9 · 2003-10-22 04:20 · Score: 1

Today I'd be hard pressed to choose -- one big plus on the PB is the *digital* video out, which lets you attach a Studio display.

One of the main uses of a laptop is to give presentations, and that almost universally requires a VGA output. The fact that the PowerBooks now require a dongle to connect to VGA is a nuisance IMO. And DVI doesn't make enough of a difference in terms of quality to be worth it.

Re:that's not a plus by Tokerat · 2003-10-22 04:49 · Score: 1

The fact that the PowerBooks now require a dongle to connect to VGA is a nuisance IMO.
Well CYO because IIRC they have both connectors. My sister's Powerbook does, anyway.

--
CAn'T CompreHend SARcaSm?
Re:that's not a plus by penguin7of9 · 2003-10-22 06:38 · Score: 1

You are imagining things. Check the specification page at apple.com. All the Ti Powerbooks with DVI require a dongle to connect to VGA.
Re:that's not a plus by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 06:40 · Score: 0

Nope. The 12" PowerBook has mini-DVI and comes with a mini-DVI to VGA adapter. The 15" and 17" PowerBooks have DVI and S-Video, and come with DVI to VGA adapter. The iBook has something else and comes with a VGA adapter for it. All of them use a dongle to connect to VGA.
Re:that's not a plus by jcr · 2003-10-22 07:39 · Score: 1

The original G4 Powerbooks had VGA out, not DVI. So, not all Titanium powerbooks require the adapter.

-jcr

--
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Re:that's not a plus by Tokerat · 2003-10-22 07:41 · Score: 1

Ahh, that's what it was. Yes, hers actually came with an S-Video to RCA adapter...Why I was thiking of RCA when I the subject was VGA I don't know... I guess posting to slashdot when you first wake up is not a good idea!

--
CAn'T CompreHend SARcaSm?
Re:that's not a plus by DarkVader · 2003-10-22 14:30 · Score: 1

I don't know about that... A decent number of projectors have a DVI input...

I'll stick with my iBook SE by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 04:20 · Score: 0

I bought a used iBook SE graphite model, a g3 366. I loaded it up with 320MB RAM, an airport card and upgraded the hard drive to 20GB.

Sure it's not top of the line, but I love the styling of this line of iBooks, and I can run OS X on it without any problems. It's great for taking around to use around the city's hotspots, surfing and checking e-mail, and listening to music. The battery lasts for 4 hours, and it's quiet and stays cool.

If you want a mac laptop that can run OS X (yes it'll run Linux too), I'd recommend finding an older iBook.

Re:I'll stick with my iBook SE by dasmegabyte · 2003-10-22 05:07 · Score: 1

The book you describe would be very nice for doing crap work...internet, word processing, etc...but would be completely insufficient for what I use my laptop(s) for: managing digital photos, collecting and jukeboxing mp3s, photoshop, and a bit of light programming (shell and java). My g3 600 barely makes it.

A g4 933, WITH a radeon moving complex GUI functions off the main chip and a faster hard disc for the inevitable swapping, would seem infinitely faster than your book.

--
Hey freaks: now you're ju
Re:I'll stick with my iBook SE by clf8 · 2003-10-22 05:31 · Score: 1

Yeah, I've got an iBook SE 466 and just upgraded to a 15" AlBook. Biggest problem with the iBook SE, 800x600 resolution. Especially with OS X, you've got to resize everything constantly and can't fit anything on the screen.

Of course, if the new iBook's had resolution greater than 1024x768 (cmon Apple, 1280x1024!!), I would actually consider replacing it. Those iBooks are beasts! They make nice wireless satellites to your desktop too, if you don't always need the power on the road.
Re:I'll stick with my iBook SE by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 05:32 · Score: 0

With the exception of Photoshop, that is exactly what I used my G3/600 iBook for and it is fine. Typically, JRun 4.0, Eclipse 3.0 M4, iTunes, a couple of instances of Terminal and Mail are open and running at once. It's maxed out to 640MB and does a fine job of handling that load.

For some reason my first reaction is: by mcc · 2003-10-22 04:22 · Score: 3, Funny

"It comes in YARDS?"
"..."
"I'm getting one."

--
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts

Re:Who the fuck cares? by diersing · 2003-10-22 04:25 · Score: 1

Uhh kettle, pot's on the phone for you.

You are an idiot. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 04:25 · Score: 0

Please kill yourself.

Thank you.

Re:The 7 stages of grief for highly effective peop by rsmith-mac · 2003-10-22 04:27 · Score: 1

You think you have it bad? I bought a 12" PB a month before the refresh. Now the iBook is almost better than my PB, at only 60% of the cost.

Correction...Nothing worse than AN arrogant dick.. by ErnstKompressor · 2003-10-22 04:30 · Score: 1

You moron.

Actually there is something worse...An arrogant asshole who doesn't understand the language, is incapable of reasoned discourse, and is convinced that other people give a shit about his worthless opinion which is really just purile mud slinging by a coward -- zealot -- yeah right, I think we know who the zealot is...By the way that is a pretty big word 'zealot'... You may have a big dick, but you sure have a small brain...

--
We apologise for the fault in this post. Those responsible have been sacked. -- Signed RICHARD M. NIXON

Yes, it would by fr0dicus · 2003-10-22 04:35 · Score: 1

If IBM, and not Apple, made the sexiest notebooks in the known universe.

Re:Think you've got it bad? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 04:38 · Score: 0

You saw boobs.

Re:The 7 stages of grief for highly effective peop by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 04:44 · Score: 0

Hey, I'm not complaining....

:)

Ouch... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 04:45 · Score: 0

This will not last long when SJAKs(Steve Job's ass kissers) find out and mod you down for this.

Re:Buy this! by fr0dicus · 2003-10-22 04:49 · Score: 1

Gnome is a pretty feeble Aqua substitute dude.

Re:Does it really matter anymore? by dasmegabyte · 2003-10-22 04:52 · Score: 4, Interesting

This is too little, too late for Apple. They're dying, and everyone sees it except the Mac users themselves.

This is a funny statement. I'm not entirely sure why. It's something like a Roman Centurion around 200 AD saying "Christianity is dying. I mean, why shell out for one god when you can have a whole pantheon, and with significantly fewer commandments to follow!"

--
Hey freaks: now you're ju

Mustang-Proof by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 04:53 · Score: 0

A friend of mine, in a rush of carelessness, left his iBook bag sitting behind the wheel of his for mustang, and then backed out of the parking lot, over the iBook. The LCD had problems that got worse and eventually had to be replaced, but the machine is still working today, as his portable recording studio.

Before he got the thing replaced, you could actually make out the tread pattern in the busted pixels of the LCD.

Audio Software by dwightk · 2003-10-22 05:05 · Score: 1

They include Sound Studio recording software with the iBooks... which is interesting since they don't have audio in...

This is pretty good software, esp free, but you gotta buy an iMic from Griffen or some other USB Audio-in dongle to use it (except with the built in mic, but I don't think anyone will be "digitizing their vinyl collection" with the built in mic.

--
Like anyone can even know that

Re:The 7 stages of grief for highly effective peop by rsax · 2003-10-22 05:22 · Score: 1

If you're an apple user, chances are good the girls *AND* the guys want to be with you.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

View Mirroring and firmware hacks by acomj · 2003-10-22 05:24 · Score: 1

I have a 500 mhz ibook. I like it. The question really is should I have to Hack the firmware to get it to work. The video card is more than capable.

Also I checked the apple sight. Still "Video Mirroring" to external monitor is supported which is apple speak for you can't change the resolution.

sigh.... 32 megs of vides ram...

Re:View Mirroring and firmware hacks by mehgul · 2003-10-22 09:20 · Score: 1

The question really is should I have to Hack the firmware to get it to work. The video card is more than capable.

The firmware hack doesn't work on 500 & 600 MHz iBooks with an ATI Rage Mobility (8 MB VRAM), unfortunately. And don't try it, it could render your machine unusable.

Re:Getting there.. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 05:31 · Score: 0

It doesn't bother me one bit.

That person is using up what limited time in their life they have on me. See this journal entry of mine from a few weeks back.

Poor troll. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 05:34 · Score: 0

Centrino != Celeron. Think P4-m.

You're an idiot, GFY, HAND.

Re:Powerbook premium--fan? by rabbit994 · 2003-10-22 05:37 · Score: 1

It normally doesn't run unless your doing a lot of processing which isn't happening 99% of the time.

No Audio In by ezthrust · 2003-10-22 05:42 · Score: 1

Another thing missing in the iBook is an audio in. Sure it can be resolved with a Griffin PowerWave or iMic, but it still is nice to have one less device on my desk.

PB 15 is built like a German sports car by hackshack · 2003-10-22 05:47 · Score: 1

The 15" is a bit stiffer overall than the 17" mostly because it ain't as big. It's the finest notebook I've seen... the build quality rivals IBM Thinkpads. The 17" isn't very portable, mostly because it's about an inch or two wider than is comfortable for most cases. The 17's screen doesn't have as many extra pixels as you'd think. Personally I'd recommend the 15".

--
Wrists killing you? Not in 2 weeks. Learn Dvorak.

Software issues by blackmonday · 2003-10-22 05:51 · Score: 1

Apple's professional line of video software (DVD Studio Pro, Final Cut Pro, etc) requires a G4 processor. I assume the new iBook can now run these applications. This is great news - a lower end machine that can run some very powerful software. Get that DV cam out! My powerbook elitism declined this morning.

Re:Differences between PowerBook and iBook - RAM! by gobbo · 2003-10-22 05:58 · Score: 2, Informative

Plus, very important for Video Nerds:

iBook = up to 640 MB
Powerbook = up to 1.25GB

Big difference!

--
Damn those pesky terrorists

Re:The 7 stages of grief for highly effective peop by the_2nd_coming · 2003-10-22 05:58 · Score: 1

no, you still et a bigger cache, faster bus, duel display, more memory expansion, smaller and lighter, and you look kick ass with it.

don't worry about it.

it is nice to know though that the G5 will be a long time coming to the iBook, so wen I buy mine in a year or so, I will be happy with it for a long time :-)

--

I am the Alpha and the Omega-3

6100 can have upto 520 MB (was Re:Dont) by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 06:06 · Score: 0

According to http://www.kan.org/6100/RAM.html the 6100 was only rated upto 64 MB additional RAM because that's what was available. Theoretically, one could find 2 256 MB cards. I remember getting 2 64 MB cards in my hazy past as a 6100 owner (lost it due to smoke damage from a fire).

Re:Does it really matter anymore? by Glock27 · 2003-10-22 06:07 · Score: 1

Car analogies are weak--the Audi really does go faster than the Kia. The iBook does NOT run faster than a comparably priced Intel laptop.

No, but it does run a fairly sane OS. It is also supported well, and very nicely designed. I understand (I've never owned one) that iBooks are pretty rugged. Battery life is also outstanding.

These observations often don't apply to "a comparably priced Intel laptop".

For me, though, the 15" Powerbook is definitely a better fit. ;-)

--
Galileo: "The Earth revolves around the Sun!"
Score: -1 100% Flamebait

Re:Does it really matter anymore? by pmz · 2003-10-22 06:07 · Score: 1

(whiny voice sound) Keeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh! Keeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh!

Ahhh, the sound of driving a quality car in the city.

--
Healthcare article at Kuro5hin

Re:Does it really matter anymore? by hvm · 2003-10-22 06:15 · Score: 1

Car analogies are fair indeed: nobody buys a car on performance and top speed specs alone. We have to like driving it at ordinary speeds, enjoy the looks, etc.
The driving experience of my iBook has o so little to do with its speed and so much with its well-thought design and ergomics.

Love reading this stuff... by mergatoriod · 2003-10-22 06:20 · Score: 1

Posted from my 17" powerbook, woohhahaha....

"Romanes eunt domus"... by ErnstKompressor · 2003-10-22 06:21 · Score: 0, Offtopic

Centurion: What is this then? Romanes eunt domus, "People called Romanes, they go the house"? LAME FILTER LAME FILTER LAME FILTER

Brian: It-it says, "Romans, go home"! LAME FILTER LAME FILTER LAME FILTER

Centurion: No, it doesn't! What's Latin for "Roman"? [grabs Brian's ear] Come on, come on! LAME FILTER LAME FILTER LAME FILTER

Brian: Romanus! LAME FILTER LAME FILTER LAME FILTER

Centurion: Goes like? LAME FILTER LAME FILTER LAME FILTER

Brian: Annus! LAME FILTER LAME FILTER LAME FILTER

Centurion: Vocative plural of annus is...? LAME FILTER LAME FILTER LAME FILTER

Brian: Anni? LAME FILTER LAME FILTER LAME FILTER

Centurion: [writes] Romani. And eunt? What is eunt? LAME FILTER LAME FILTER LAME FILTER

Brian: "Go"! Let- LAME FILTER LAME FILTER LAME FILTER

Centurion: Conjugate the verb "to go". LAME FILTER LAME FILTER LAME FILTER

Brian: Ire; eo, is, it, imus, itis, eunt! LAME FILTER LAME FILTER LAME FILTER

Centurion: So eunt is...? LAME FILTER LAME FILTER LAME FILTER

Brian: Third person plural, present indicative. "They go!" LAME FILTER LAME FILTER LAME FILTER

Centurion: But "Romans, go home" is an order, so you must use the...? LAME FILTER LAME FILTER LAME FILTER

Brian: The... imperative! LAME FILTER LAME FILTER LAME FILTER

Centurion: Which is...? LAME FILTER LAME FILTER LAME FILTER

Brian: I! LAME FILTER LAME FILTER LAME FILTER

Centurion: [twisting Brian's ear] How many Romans? LAME FILTER LAME FILTER LAME FILTER

Brian: [yelling] I.. Plural, plural! Ite, ite! LAME FILTER LAME FILTER LAME FILTER

Centurion: [writing] Ite. Domus? Nominative? But "go home", it is motion towards, isn't it, boy? LAME FILTER LAME FILTER LAME FILTER

Brian: Dative, sir! LAME FILTER LAME FILTER LAME FILTER

[The centurion promptly draws his swords and presses it against Brian's throat. Brian yells:] LAME FILTER LAME FILTER LAME FILTER

No, not dative! Not the dative, sir! No! The... accusative, accusative! Domum, sir, ad domum! LAME FILTER LAME FILTER LAME FILTER

Centurion: Except that domus takes the...? LAME FILTER LAME FILTER LAME FILTER

Brian: The locative, sir! LAME FILTER LAME FILTER LAME FILTER

Centurion: Which is? LAME FILTER LAME FILTER LAME FILTER

Brian: Domum! LAME FILTER LAME FILTER LAME FILTER

Centurion: [writing] Domum... -um [sheathing his sword] Understand? LAME FILTER LAME FILTER LAME FILTER

[Brian nods eagerly] LAME FILTER LAME FILTER LAME FILTER

Now, write it out a hundred times! LAME FILTER LAME FILTER LAME FILTER

Brian: Yes, sir, thank you, sir! Hail Caesar! LAME FILTER LAME FILTER LAME FILTER

Centurion: Hail Caesar. If it's not done by sunrise, I'll cut your balls off! LAME FILTER LAME FILTER LAME FILTER

Brian: Oh, thank you, sir. Thank you, sir. Hail Caesar and everything, sir!

--
We apologise for the fault in this post. Those responsible have been sacked. -- Signed RICHARD M. NIXON

PowerBook G4 vs. iBook G4 by TechStuff.ca · 2003-10-22 06:23 · Score: 1

> If prices are the same, why would I pay the premium for a Powerbook?

Why buy a PowerBook instead of a new iBook?

Bigger Screen - First, the obvious stuff: you can't buy a 15" or 17" iBook. There are only two options: 12" or 14". If you want a really big screen, you have to buy a PowerBook. (However, if you want a small screen, you can buy a 12" PowerBook.)

Bigger Brain - The G4 processor is the computer "brain" that does most of the computer's heavy lifting. The G4 processors inside the new iBooks range from 800 MHz to 1 GHz. The PowerBooks start at 1 GHz and go up to 1.33 GHz. Faster is better.

Bigger Pipes - Behind the scenes, the various "pipes" that transport data from place to place inside PowerBooks (e.g. the data "bus") have more capacity than the data pipes inside the iBooks. In other words, PowerBooks are designed to "think" more quickly.

SuperDrive - PowerBooks have a SuperDrive that can record ("burn") on DVD or CD disks. iBooks can play DVDs, but they can only record on CD. This is one of the least obvious differences between iBook and PowerBook -- you simply can't buy an iBook that records on DVD.

More memory capacity - The iBook G4 can be upgraded to 640 MB of memory (RAM), but that's the limit. The PowerBook G4 can use up to 2 GB of RAM. If you're working with professional quality audio or video stuff, this matters. (The RAM that ships inside PowerBooks is also better (faster) than iBook RAM.)

Better short-term memory - Programs that temporarily store stuff in "cache" memory will perform better on a PowerBook. The PowerBook G4 has a bigger L2 cache (512k vs. 256k). You may never notice the difference, but it's there.

Faster Networking - iBooks support standard Ethernet network connections (10/100BASE-T Fast Ethernet). PowerBooks support Gigabit Ethernet connections, which are ten times faster.

Firewire 800 - The iBook G4 has a standard FireWire connector. PowerBooks add support for Firewire 800, which is twice as fast.

More Video - An iBook can connect to an external computer monitor. PowerBooks can also connected to digital monitors (DVI), and can "span" video images across more than one screen. This is especially useful for video pros (and anyone else who needs lots of screen real estate.)

More Audio - iBooks have headphone and speaker jacks to send audio out. PowerBooks also have a line in jack so you can record from an external source without any additional hardware. (Add-on USB audio input devices are available that work with iBooks.)

Summary:
iBooks are still primarily for students and home users; PowerBooks are still aimed primarily at professionals. Consider all the facts before you make your purchase.

Re:PowerBook G4 vs. iBook G4 by the+shoez · 2003-10-22 08:59 · Score: 1

Nice advertising TechStuff, but you fail to mention the 12" PowerBook in the above. It doesn't have the faster firewire, a 1ghz chip, faster networking, etc, etc. However, not to sound like I'm repeating everyone else, but it's all been mentioned before in the day.... you might like to revise your "blog".

--
&lawyers($instruction);

DVI out is vital for Apple displays by rtv · 2003-10-22 06:23 · Score: 1

Key difference is the lack of DVI out. The 12" PB allows you to use a spiffy Apple display (with a DVI-ADC converter).

Re:The 7 stages of grief for highly effective peop by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 06:23 · Score: 0

The 1024x768 resolution of the iBooks is stiffling for any "power user." Fine for Grandma and her single-application lifestyle, but you won't regret the 15", I promise.

RAM by MHV · 2003-10-22 06:24 · Score: 1

I see this one coming: "no one is ever gonna
need more than 640 Mb of RAM" ...

Apple the Mercedes of PCs by rtv · 2003-10-22 06:25 · Score: 1

Just like Mercedes doesn't sell well to single people under the age of 25 You didn't go to USC or UCLA did ya?

Re:Apple the Mercedes of PCs by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 06:57 · Score: 0

Matter of fact, I did go to USC. I lived in Birnkrant back in 1990-1991.

When were you there?
Re:Apple the Mercedes of PCs by b17bmbr · 2003-10-22 07:15 · Score: 1

but those are bought by mommy and daddy.

--
My problem? I was perfectly gruntled, until some numbnuts came by and dissed me.

New Zealand rip-off mac pricing by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 06:29 · Score: 0

Yup, we are bring ripped off big time here in New Zealand too. Cheaper to fly to OZ to buy one and perhaps even to the USA. Try Hong Kong...they have really good pricing, just a bit more than the US.

Wrong...you forgot something... by ErnstKompressor · 2003-10-22 06:32 · Score: 1

Buy Crapway M500...

Pay Microsoft Tax...

Install Linux...

Days later, get Gnome 2.4.x...

Get OSX Gnome theme...

Get OSX Background...

Begin tearing out hair...

Realize how stupid this whole process has been...

Sell M500 on eBay for half of what you paid for it...

Go to Apple Store and actually buy iBook with OS X installed...

--
We apologise for the fault in this post. Those responsible have been sacked. -- Signed RICHARD M. NIXON

Re:Wrong...you forgot something... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 20:26 · Score: 0

Listen to the ball licking cum guzzling fanboy. Enjoy your overpriced but underpowered crapple hardware and your piece of shit proprietary OS (built -- that is to say, stolen -- from free and open Unix source code).

FUCK apple, and all the fanboys who prop up their hedgemony. Fucking faggots.
Re:Wrong...you forgot something... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 20:49 · Score: 0

sounds like you've got some unsloved issues in regards to your sexuality there.
Re:Wrong...you forgot something... by dadragon · 2003-10-23 17:42 · Score: 1

Did a Macintosh bite you when you were a child?

--
God save our Queen, and Heaven bless The Maple Leaf Forever!
Re:Wrong...you forgot something... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-27 16:31 · Score: 0

hedgemony? Is that where there's only one type of hedge in a yard? Or is that what bushes pay each other when they get divorced?
You'd think with that state of the art PC you've got there, you'd have a spell checker. Perhaps you've overcocked it :).
~~~

Conjecture on G5 Powerbooks by Mistah+Blue · 2003-10-22 06:32 · Score: 1

Anyone care to guess when we'll see G5 Powerbooks. I'd rather have one of those than getting the G5 tower.

Re:Mac problems by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 06:33 · Score: 0

BULLLLLLLLLLLSHIIIIIIITTTTTT

as a WINDOWS development station, defiantly you are no where near as productive, but with Xcode I can get automatic distributed compiling and all the goodness of VS.Net in the way of UI features.

The G5 Laptops are coming! by madcoder47 · 2003-10-22 06:35 · Score: 0

When apple upgrades their bottom line, the professional line is never too far away. I remember a while ago when Powerbook G3's were all the rage, apple created the G3 iBook and then immediately moved the powerbooks to a G4 Chip (and the Titanium enclosure). The same thing happened with The iMacs and the G5's... when iMacs + eMacs became G4's (the current models), the G4 towers were soon phased out and replaced with G5's... the pro powerbooks will be G5-based soon.

Re:The G5 Laptops are coming! by dman123 · 2003-10-22 07:20 · Score: 2, Interesting

No. All Powerbooks were upgraded last month. September 16, IIRC. It'll be a while for another upgrade.

I'm sure the new G5 PBs will come out only a few days after I get my new G4 PB.

--

--
dman123 forever!
Filtering out the -1s and 0s since 1999.

Don't you get it yet??? by ErnstKompressor · 2003-10-22 06:40 · Score: 1

People actually like Apple products!!! Slashdot people no less -- Hell did freeze over. No one gives a flying fuck about the next Dell Opti-whoop-dee-doo or the HP Crapillion. We all know that there are cheaper boxes and that you can get such and such performance for X% less money...No one cares...this is not a competition to see who can get what for whatever...Apple computers are great and that does not mean that other rigs aren't -- I don't see why non-Apple users are so threatened by this...Please, keep using your system of choice...but lay off the constant whining about Apple...We don't care...

--
We apologise for the fault in this post. Those responsible have been sacked. -- Signed RICHARD M. NIXON

Re:Don't you get it yet??? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-23 14:08 · Score: 0

"People" don't actually like Apple products. Uninformed morons who like pretty shiny cases like Apple products. Nothing like paying 2x the value for hardware, and paying $130 for a FREE operating system. Hahaha! Fucking choad guzzling fanboy. I can't wait until Apple releases a new product, so you get fucked up the ass by Steve Jobs again! :-D

Start menu by MORTAR_COMBAT! · 2003-10-22 06:41 · Score: 1

She doesn't use the start menu, she places shortcuts to the applications she uses on the desktop.

And it's not the jukebox software, she's been missing song downloads since Napster went under. She liked LimeWire but the RIAA successfully scared us away from using P2P software.

--
MORTAR COMBAT!

Reality Check by tyrione · 2003-10-22 06:43 · Score: 1

I wonder if Apple will think this too aggressive but an ad campaign to show the costs people spend on their 'habits'/'addictions' versus what they spend on technology purchases.

People whine about the extra price in RAM or if Apple would just shave $200 off hear, offer a headless system and presto!

How about people stop sucking down $12 a day worth of Lattes/Mochas, etc or better yet cut back on their pack a day smoking habit to half a pack.

Over the course of one year you inhale and urinate out costs that could have you with a brand new G5, in some cases, and at least a new iBook for the general case.

Kudos to Starbucks, Tulleys and others who are able to capitalize on the weaknesses of the individual but shame on those that bitch Apple is being too expensive to purchase as their reason for not experiencing OS X.

P.S. I have my daily coffee, I just purchase it at $8 for 3 lbs from Costco and grind it myself. And no I don't smoke. I'm also the same person who goes to Starbucks or Tuley's and orders only a Grande drip, period.

Re:Reality Check by Ohreally_factor · 2003-10-22 12:45 · Score: 2, Funny

You need to get your own TV show. Call it "The Frugal Yuppie". =)

--
It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.

Silent computing by shagfu · 2003-10-22 06:44 · Score: 2, Interesting

I already had a PC based DAW (digital audio worksation). But decided upon swithing back to the Mac with the ibook. One of the main reasons I chose the iBook over a Powerbook was because of how quiet they are. When you're recording classical guitar with a sensitive condenser microphone-it's nice not pick up the sound of a computer. Most of the time my iBook 700 is as quiet as can be. My Athlon box, on the other hand, generates huge amounts of heat and fan noise. Even the turbulence of the air coming out of the back of the pc generates a huge amount of noise.

price protection by pinpoint23 · 2003-10-22 06:48 · Score: 5, Informative

having just recieved my 900 MHz G3 iBook in the mail 4 days ago, I was pretty pissed to see that Apple unveiled a new line of iBooks.

However, I called Apple, and it turned out I qualified for some kind of price protection. I am not allowed to return my iBook and get a new one (since my iBook was "custom built" by having extra RAM and an Airport card added), but they are going to credit my Visa $190.

Hope this helps anyone else who just bought an iBook. CALL APPLE!!! they may have some money for you....

Re:price protection by galego · 2003-10-23 01:51 · Score: 1

Had just ordered a refurb powerbook 12"/867/SuperDrive on Tuesday. Didn't really *need* the SuperDrive, but figured it would be good for backing up. Called them to tell them I wanted in iBook instead. My PB order is still on the road to my house, but they helped me get the process rolling to turn it around when it gets here.
Already have my order in for the 933/14" G4 iBook and the 160GB FireWire Drive for back ups (as well as an extra 512 MB RAM). But now I have to wait for this one to ship :(
And another plus, Apple Care is cheaper on the iBook (at least via my .edu discount), so that freed up some cash!

--
Que Deus te de em dobro o que me desejas
[May God give you double that which you wish for me]

Re:WRONG, just older G4s by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 06:55 · Score: 0

They are G4's from the same generation as the last PowerBooks 7455 instead of the current 7457. But, they are definitely Motorola G4s. The IBM G3 based CPUs with Altivec haven't even been made yet.

Oh, and a G4 has several things over a G3 including bidirectional memor access and execution of 64bit floating point ops in half the cycles.

Think of buying one. Tips? by Espectr0 · 2003-10-22 06:56 · Score: 1, Interesting

Now i am really screwed. I was almost decided to buy the 12" powerbook and now i could get 2 inches bigger screen with the same ram and cpu ghz for 100$ less.

Which one should i get? My current laptop has 12" too so screen size doesn't matter that much (both have the same resolutions anyway)

I dont think i will be using the video output.

I care most about raw speed of the laptop, since i have read that mac laptops are slow and i should get at least 512mb ram.

A 1ghz mac laptop would be the equivalent of what pc's cpu speed?

--
Open Source Java Web Forum with LDAP authentication

Re:Think of buying one. Tips? by dman123 · 2003-10-22 07:24 · Score: 1

I care most about raw speed of the laptop...
Get the PB. The iBook is 800 MHz, the PB is 1 GHz. The iBook has only half the L2 cache. Two major speed differences. You won't regret it.

--

--
dman123 forever!
Filtering out the -1s and 0s since 1999.
Re:Think of buying one. Tips? by Espectr0 · 2003-10-22 08:04 · Score: 1

remember i was comparing it to the 14" imac which has 1.0 ghz itself but still have the cache.

since i will buy the thing in december, maybe this will change so i guess i just have to wait a month an a half

--
Open Source Java Web Forum with LDAP authentication
Re:Think of buying one. Tips? by Redundant+offtopic+t · 2003-10-22 22:11 · Score: 1

I hear you--I'm getting ready to get a 12" powerbook. And now apple gives us an equally weighted choice between price and features. Stupid Apple! For me, I prize portability in a laptop over speed--I want a laptop rather than a luggable desktop replacement. So, the 12" form factor is much better than the 14, especially, as you state, they have the same number of pixels. However, some people do like the bigger pixels which displays bigger text. I, on the other hand, adjust the text scaling within a program if text is too tiny--but to each his own, I suppose. So, if you're like me, the 14" drops from consideration. The choice now becomes: $500 versus thinner, lighter, brighter display, DVI + extended desktop at a good resolution (which you won't be using), better keyboard, more RAM capacity (though to get the higher total, the memory cards are extremely spendy at the mo), faster cpu (not just the mhz, but twice the cache), faster RAM bus. Last is the software bundle. Appleworks (comes with ibooks) is a great app for opening yer average Word and Excel files. --besides it being a competent office-type app that does what people need to do. The powerbook comes with some good graphics utils but trial versions of MS office and filemaker. Omnigraffle is a terrific drawing/charting program (think visio with an understandable interface). But do you need that? If you are near an apple store or apple reseller, the best thing to do would be to burn some of your files to CD, round up a few music CDs, and your digital camera, and hop on down for some quality time. Oh, and take the backpack/briefcase you carry your current laptop in to see how the apple books fits and feels. The only benchmark that matters is the one you do yourself. Whichever you decide on, I have only one hard recommendation: don't buy apple's ram. cost's too much compared to any reputable memory seller.
Re:Think of buying one. Tips? by Espectr0 · 2003-10-24 16:18 · Score: 1

Thanks for your comments, perhaps you can tell me where to buy the ram (retail please) since i dont live in the u.s and have to go to miami for the shopping.

--
Open Source Java Web Forum with LDAP authentication
Re:Think of buying one. Tips? by dpa_kork · 2003-10-26 22:15 · Score: 1

i was looking for a used 12" PB the last weeks (which are - actually - still pretty expensive though some of them are over a year or so old...) but since the g4 ibooks are announced (haven't seen one at my local dealer yet - damn) - even for less money than a used 12" pb will cost - i'll take the ibook... just look at what so called sub-notebooks (i think the 12" ibook can call himself one...) from other companies take from you - sigh!

upgrade? by Riff10111 · 2003-10-22 07:16 · Score: 1

Will the new logic boards fit in the older model iBooks? My iBook needs a new logic board anyway, 'cause of a bad RAM chip. (Naturally, the one that went bad was the one soldered to the board, not the one that's easily replacable. All Hail Murphy.)

--
"When I smile, I have a mouth full of teeth; when I frown, I'm not even here."

No, iBook supports 1.25 GB RAM by flux4 · 2003-10-22 07:21 · Score: 1

Although you can order an iBook with a maximum of 640 MB, it still has one slot open. The maximum supported is 1.25 GB.

Re:No, iBook supports 1.25 GB RAM by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 08:57 · Score: 0

wrong Gump - read it again. All the ibooks have maximum of 640MB ram.
Re:No, iBook supports 1.25 GB RAM by EricWright · 2003-10-22 09:35 · Score: 1

Dude, I HAVE an iBook... I think I know what fits into it: 1 128 MB DIMM soldered to the motherboard, 1 SODIMM slot supporting up to 512 MB. 128 + 512 = 640...

Re:The 7 stages of grief for highly effective peop by Cybrex · 2003-10-22 07:32 · Score: 1

Funny you should mention that, since that does seem to be the case on the flip side. My wife's girlfriend (my ex-girlfriend) moved out a month ago- just before my wife started using a Mac as her primary machine. Now suddenly half of our female friends are hitting on her- even ones that didn't previously identify as bisexual.

I guess that grape iMac really IS a chick magnet. :-)

-Cybrex

--
Boundless Expansion, Self-Transformation, Dynamic Optimism, Intelligent Technology, Spontaneous Order- BEST DO IT SO!

Re:Does it really matter anymore? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 07:33 · Score: 0

Yep! It is called a used iBook ;-)

BUY IT THROUGH YOUR SCHOOL by gelstudios · 2003-10-22 07:36 · Score: 1

if you buy an apple computer with a educational discount, applecare is included with your purchase! I didnt realize this when I got my ibook, and I ended up buying the applecare later (at a discount).

Re:Apple bitches by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 07:43 · Score: 0

The question is why are we all so interested in Apple? Is because they are Unix-ish, because they are pretty, or just different?

Except for a short stint with blueberry ibook (checked one out from work for a while, thought it was OK but hated 800x600 res. I do own a Next Station.) I have never owned or really even used a Mac. Yet I eargerly anticipate their product releases and pretty much read every article that gets posted.

So what is it? Is it just the marketing. What drives people to point out that PCs are cheaper or post what Apple should or shouldn't do next? Do I have secret Mac desires I can't quite come to grips with...

Re:The 7 stages of grief for highly effective peop by Vengie · 2003-10-22 07:56 · Score: 1

no...there isnt. i'm one of the boys who hits on bois i see with ibooks/pb's. thanks apple....for giving mo's a self-identifier. [woe unto the heteros who carry macs around...]

--
When in doubt, parenthesize. At the very least it will let some poor schmuck bounce on the % key in vi. (Larry Wall)

GRRRRRRR by falcon5768 · 2003-10-22 08:01 · Score: 1

It only figured I buy a new iBook 3 weeks ago and they release THIS now when everyone was pretty sure the g4 ones wouldnt be comming out till 2004.

Though I must say it now makes the G5 powerbooks look very much more likely since keeping the iBook at a g3 was the only thing I thought showed that they wheren't on the horizon within 6 months or so.

--

"Slashdot, where telling the truth is overrated but lying is insightful."

MOD PARENT DOWN!!! by EMDischarge · 2003-10-22 08:01 · Score: 1

Come on, moderators, either respond to a message like this or don't moderate - this needs to be clarified. There are no inaccessible slots in any Mac, including Powerbooks. There are slots that are more difficult to get to but you can still get to them. The parent comment is utter BULLSHIT.

--
Quintus malus puer est.

Re:MOD PARENT DOWN!!! by Jeremy+Erwin · 2003-10-22 08:56 · Score: 1

No, it's not bullshit.

According to Apple's "iMac (Flat Panel): Memory Specifications":

Warning: While you may add or change memory in the SO-DIMM slot, do not attempt to access the factory-only memory slot. Special seals and tooling are required to access and reseal the computer successfully. If the computer is incorrectly resealed, damage to the computer will result and this damage would not be covered under warranty.

The services of an Apple authorized Service Provider or Apple itself is required to install additional memory into the factory-only accessible memory slot. The service and support information that came with your computer provides instructions on locating an Apple Authorized Service Provider or contacting Apple for this service.

The iBook only has one slot.

If Apple is going to install that premium priced memory in a user-inaccessible location, it may be worth the cost to avoid aggravation later.. If Apple is going to solder that extra memory onto the logic board, it's worth it. If Apple is simply going to place an overpriced DIMM in a user-accessible location, then such service is not, IMHO, worth the premium.
Re:MOD PARENT DOWN!!! by DarkVader · 2003-10-22 14:26 · Score: 1

The "special seals and tools" consist of torx drivers, a "black stick" (plastic screwdriver) and heatsink grease.

I'm reasonably confident that most slashdot readers would be capable of adding memory to the internal slot of an iMac.

And I'm an Apple certified tech.

(Oh, and if you read the Apple phrasing, you can see that the warranty voiding only happens if you fuck up...)

And yes, the iBook has only one slot - the currently shipping models have 128MB soldered on the logic board. Trying to upgrade the soldered memory WILL void your warranty.
Re:MOD PARENT DOWN!!! by Jeremy+Erwin · 2003-10-22 14:50 · Score: 1

Oh, and if you read the Apple phrasing, you can see that the warranty voiding only happens if you fuck up...)

Only if you take the warning notice as a legally binding document. If Apple really wants to get out of paying for an unrelated repair, they might just use "self installed memory" as an excuse.
Re:MOD PARENT DOWN!!! by DarkVader · 2003-10-23 01:11 · Score: 1

If it's been done properly, they'll never question it.

If a tech opens up an iMac and sees a damaged heatsink, it'll get questioned. If the heatsink has not been properly cleaned before being greased, it'll get questioned. If the wrong kind of memory has been installed, it'll get questioned.

Oh, and if you're an ass to the tech when you need a warranty fix done, the tech is likely to look for things to void your warranty.

But I'd never void a warranty based on properly installed memory when it's obviously an unrelated issue.
Re:MOD PARENT DOWN!!! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-23 03:03 · Score: 0

could someone mod my parents down? they have been dressing far too mod lately.

No Velocity Engine !!! by javaxman · 2003-10-22 08:08 · Score: 1

If you look at the pages on Apple's website :

iBook Tech Specs

scroll down to "Technical Specifications", it says :

Processor and memory

800MHz, 933MHz or 1GHz PowerPC G4 processor with 256K on-chip level 2 cache running at full processor speed

compare this to

PowerBook Tech Specs

which says :

Processor and Memory

1GHz PowerPC G4 processor with Velocity Engine, 512K SRAM on-chip L2 cache, 133MHz system bus (12-inch models)

Why do the iBook specs leave out the "Velocity Engine" reference?

Maybe because it's not there. If it was there, Apple would market as being there. As much as I really am a fan of Apple, this was a bad move by their marketing folks.

So there is a reason why you might want to still consider that PowerBook G4. Personally, I don't care how fast it is, if it doesn't have a "Velocity Engine", Apple shouldn't call it a G4. It *is* misleading. Sure, Dell or IBM would do the same, but I do in fact expect more from Apple.

Re:No Velocity Engine !!! by Frodo2002 · 2003-10-24 12:06 · Score: 1

No, not true. It does not say so at the top of the page, but if you go to the bottom of this page, you will see that they indeed to have velocity engine.

iBook vs Powerbook by tokengeekgrrl · 2003-10-22 08:12 · Score: 0, Redundant

Not to ask a stupid question, but what's the difference between them given these upgrades to the iBook besides price? The SuperDrive? Memory expansion?

- tokengeekgrrl

Re:iBook vs Powerbook by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 18:32 · Score: 0

For the most part I will ignore the 12.1" PowerBook, it is a bit of a hybrid between iBook and PowerBook. Memory is certainly one thing. Apple intentionally cripples the iBook still by hardwiring a 128 and leaving only one slot upgradeable for a maximum of 640. The PowerBooks have two available slots, giving you a maximum of 1gb. The PowerBooks also take faster memory than the iBooks.
Video performance is another big gap. You can plug a second monitor into the iBook, but Apple cripples it, it will only mirror what is on the LCD. So matter how nice of a monitor you hook it up to, the best you'll get is 1024x768. PowerBooks can drive the second monitor independantly, and support high resolutions. You can even plug their 23" mega panels into a PowerBook. This is more essential for a pro that would like to reference colour corrections on a high quality calibrated monitor.
Then there is the obvious differences in screen size, with the exception of the 12.1" PowerBook, the other two have much better resolutions -- and additionally the technology of the LCD itself is far higher. The PowerBooks have some of the best screens I've seen on a laptop. Crisp, wide viewing angle, rich colours. iBook's screens have a very narrow viewing range, and the dynamic range is not near 24bpp. You can forget perceptual colour correction on an iBook.
Network speeds on the PowerBooks are gigabit. Important for large data transfers.
FireWire Extreme on the PowerBooks, as opposed to the slower variant on the iBook. This is not a great concern right now though.
Other than that, that is about it and what you listed. The gap has closed a great deal, and the iBooks still have advantages over the PowerBooks in other areas, such as build quality. iBooks are tough little suckers, and PowerBooks are as frail as butterflies. The iBooks also still have better battery life by a long shot. It doesn't look like it on the spec sheets, but from personal experience I actually can get about five hours on an iBook, and despite PowerBooks claiming about the same, the best they can do even with all of the power settings maxed is around half of that.
I'd say more than ever it comes down to what you really need the thing for. Before, the 12.1" PowerBook was enough to make most of the iBooks pointless, and now they are much more even. Even enough to make the iBooks more tempting.

get the 15" PB by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 08:23 · Score: 0

If you wee going to go 12in i'd get the ibook because the PB 12" isn't that much better. 15in gets you more ram ability, the machine is built better too. If you buy a pc the IBM is the best 2yrs ago I dumped my PC laptop running linux for an ibook I was just sick of breaking pieces off of it, I have dropped my ibook on concrete and it is still fine. Before I bought PC which hmm rhymes with hell, I had a thinkpad it is the only pc I have ever owned with quality close to that of the apple.

you misread the parent post (nt) by Acous · 2003-10-22 08:25 · Score: 1

(no text)

Re:Does it really matter anymore? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 08:26 · Score: 0

Ah, but the question is whether I go faster using an iBook or a whatever. The answer: I go faster when I use the iBook.

A lightning-fast IA-32-whatever would spend most of its time waiting on me to sort through the Gordian knot that is Windows, or the utter mess that is Linux, or what have you.

Pass, thanks. I'll stick with what makes me most productive, and happiest.

Just bring it by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 08:30 · Score: 0

Stop wasting money on hardware, make the fucking OSX for X86 and help us get rid of the Borg Gates.

No Velocity Engine !!! by javaxman · 2003-10-22 08:42 · Score: 4, Interesting

If you look at the "Technical Specifications" page for the new iBooks, you'll notice there is NO mention of the "Velocity Engine". Same for the new "G4" eMac.

Any other Technical Specifications page for any other "G4" Apple offers, they say "with Velocity Engine".

I am afraid the iBook and eMac may not *have* a "Velocity Engine", or Apple would advertise it, wouldn't they ? These might be IBM chips, but they are not IBM chips with "Altivec". They may be "G4" in name only, i.e. we're marketing guys, we're willing to call it "G4" just because it's over 800 Mhz... this totally sucks if it's the case. I hope I'm wrong and Apple updates the Tech Specs to include mention of Velocity Engine, but I am afraid that Apple might have just stooped to the level of other hardware companies here.

Great day for Altivec by ekc · 2003-10-22 08:45 · Score: 1

Knowing that Apple's entire line is now G4s or better has made my day! I no longer have to steer clients away from the iBook because our Altivec-tuned modelling engine will crawl on it. I hope more developers will use Altivec now that they know every Mac will support it. Man, I haven't felt this good since Apple moved to PowerPCs and every machine from then on had an FPU!

Re:Powerbook premium--fan? by follower-fillet · 2003-10-22 08:46 · Score: 1

> It normally doesn't run
Although recently i had it turn on and never turn off, except if you put the machine to sleep. This still happened when left sleeping over night.

A reboot stopped it, but killed my 56 day uptime. :-(

iBook does NOT support 1.25 GB RAM by imcleod · 2003-10-22 09:04 · Score: 1

Read a little more carefully next time. Both the Apple Store and the page you linked to say 640MB is the max: 128MB built-in, and up to a 512MB SO-DIMM in the one available slot.

Re:iBook does NOT support 1.25 GB RAM by flux4 · 2003-10-22 09:37 · Score: 1

Hmm, now you're right. But I have a cached version of the iBook specs page from earlier today, which does say 1.25 GB. What's up with that?

Re:Differences between PowerBook and iBook - RAM! by plj · 2003-10-22 09:09 · Score: 2, Informative

The "old" (non-DVI) 12" AluBooks, like mine, were also able to have only up to 640 MB of RAM.

So you're right only, if you compare to new 12"DVI PBook

--
“Wait for Hurd if you want something real” –Linus

Re:Does it really matter anymore? by SensitiveMale · 2003-10-22 09:40 · Score: 1

It's something like a Roman Centurion around 200 AD saying "Christianity is dying. I mean, why shell out for one god when you can have a whole pantheon, and with significantly fewer commandments to follow!"

that was damn funny. :)

If you bought a G3 iBook a week ago .... by 2muchcoffeeman · 2003-10-22 09:42 · Score: 2, Funny

... like I nearly did, how ticked off are you?

--
Prevent Windows piracy. Use Linux instead.

Re:If you bought a G3 iBook a week ago .... by cmason32 · 2003-10-22 10:03 · Score: 1

If it's less than ten days you can return it and get the new ibook.
Re:If you bought a G3 iBook a week ago .... by MoneyT · 2003-10-22 11:38 · Score: 1

I would be ticked at myself for not looking into the upgrade cycle of Macs and failing to realize that the iBooks were due for an update.

--
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984

Re:Bus speed and NOT backside cache by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 10:18 · Score: 0

The level 2 cache is not connected to the processor by way of a backside bus. It is on the chip itself, at full processor speed. This makes for far better I/O performance, since the distance is shorter (regardless of clock speed).

http://www.apple.com/ibook/specs.html

While not being as large as the L2 on the AlBooks, it is still better than the backside L2 cache on my first gen. Powerbook G4, 1MB @ 250MHz (1/2 proc speed).

~Joe L

Re:Powerbook premium--fan? by JDWTopGuy · 2003-10-22 10:59 · Score: 1

I run dnetc, you insensetive clod!

--
Ron Paul 2012

Battery? by Roguelazer · 2003-10-22 11:00 · Score: 2, Interesting

I was viewing the specs and I noticed that the battery was listed as a 50w/h on the 12.1" iBook, as opposed to a 41w/h on the 12" PowerBook. In the past, I know PowerBooks had bigger batteries than iBooks. Does anyone with a G3 iBook know how much theirs is?

--
My Systems

You're very wrong! by MarcQuadra · 2003-10-22 11:14 · Score: 2, Informative

The 750GX DOES NOT include a SIMD/AltiVec unit, and these machines DO NOT have IBM 750GX CPUs in them.

the 750GX, due soon at a fabrication plant near you, is essentially a 750FX with additional L2 cache (1MB vs. 512K), and some minor reworking to accomodate higher clocking and better caching. Expect it to run in the 900MHz-1.2GHz range over it's lifetime.

The 750VX, which nobody has even claimed to have seen yet, is the rumored IBM 750+AltiVec CPU. It would be IBM's answer to Motorola's G4 chip. Specs are up in the air.

I think if you were to tear one of these new notebooks open you'd see a Motorola 7XXX branded CPU, which tend to favor AltiVec in exchange for on-die cache. What leads me to this conclusion? The IBM whitepapers for the 750GX have been out since June, and their specs just don't match with this laptop's, while Motorola's offerings clearly do.

--
"Sometimes, I think Trent just needs a cup of hot chocolate and a blankie." -Tori Amos on Nine Inch Nails

Where are the Microsofties hiding? by rixstep · 2003-10-22 11:26 · Score: 1

It's been Apple, Apple, Apple in the news for weeks. What are the Microsofties up to?

Oh yeah - they say they patched a vulnerability in Hotmail.

G5 portable? Nah... by lintux · 2003-10-22 11:29 · Score: 1

> 256K vs. 512K of cache also gives a distinction between the iBook and powerbook lines that Apple may wish to have as one of the reasons to justify their price difference as well.

It surprises me that nobody noticed yet that the later G3 iBooks (May 2002 and later AFAIK) had 512KB of cache. So would this G4 maybe be slower than a G3 when running non-AltiVec applications?

Also, don't expect the G5 in portable devices soon. Just look at the fans in the G5, try to put one of them in a laptop. :-)

Re:The 7 stages of grief for highly effective peop by binary+paladin · 2003-10-22 11:40 · Score: 1

Well... I wasn't gonna say it.

Re:Science and OS X by tsch · 2003-10-22 11:42 · Score: 1

I'm taking issue with your claim that students and scientists (specifically student scientists) are well served by using Apple computers.

Some background. I am an undergraduate student studying science. I am an Apple Certified Technician. I have pretty much exclusively used Macs my entire life. I work for the IST department of my college.

The amount of Macs (~2% of all computers)on my campus is lower (by a little more than half) than Apple's market share. As I attend a small (1000 students) private college, I know all the students that own Macs. None of them (apart from me) are science students. Very few of them are "creative" (film or art) users. Most tend to be "just" students. The only thing they tend to have in common is coming from a wealthy background.

As much as I love using Macs, it's my opinion students are unlikely - and, I think in most cases, ill advised - to bring one to college.

Why?

Easy: compatibility and software.

For example. I'm having to dump my eMac to use my old PC. My organic chemistry textbook includes activities with ChemOffice Ltd (student cost: $70). ChemOffice Ltd does not exist for OS X. ChemOffice Ultra 8.0 does exist for OS X, but (a) only ChemDraw is carbonized (Chem3d [etc.] has to be run in Classic mode, which sucks) (b) ChemOffice Ultra 8.0 costs $490 for students.

To give a more inclusive examples: networking to printers, browsing computers on the network, and taking full advantage of Exchange server capabilities (LDAP) are much easier (or, simply, are possible) on a PC. The common student would be much better servered using a PC and spending the time she'd spend configuring her Mac studying instead.

I know that there's a wealth of software that fink/x11 is bringing to OS X, but ease of use and ease of accessability to the software seems to be the sticking point. Sure, I'd much rather stay with my eMac and run some x11 or unix software to do my molecular modelling. However, search as I may I haven't found any good options that work well with the instructions the book gives me.

Right now Apple seems to be in a situation much like HP's calculators are; like an HP calculator, a Mac is (in my opinion) a much better product than the competition (Wintel in the case of Macs, TI-8x calculators in the case of HP calcs). However, since the other has become a standard, it is assumed that every(rather than the typical) student is a PC user with a TI calculator. No (or very few) alternatives are available for those students who are not.

At any rate. This is, I suppose, a roundabout way to ask who, exactly, you know in the sciences that's big on Macs. In lab we have an awesome Sun setup (running Spartan) for modelling. I only know one chem professor that uses a Mac. The Physics dpt uses iBooks for student labs because of the lab software that's available for them ("Determine the rate of acceleration..."), but other than that everything's Sun or Wintel.

And let me add this to avoid one "easy" thoughtless response: yeah, my household does make more than $75k/year, but that still doesn't mean that I'm going to pay $420 more for software when I'm going to be using the same features in it that I would in the $70 version. Not to be a prick, but the way one gets to have money is by not spending it on outrageously priced items when equally competent options are available at significantly lower costs.

There are definately students who benefit from owning a Mac (film, art and [arguably] language students come to mind). Science and math students are probably done a disservice by purchasing a Mac (ex: let me know how to transfer files from my eMac to my HP48GX - I can do it on my clunker wintel laptop though). I think the general student probably is better served by getting a PC because of the time and hassles they'll save at most schools. 'Course, if they're going to Reed, then they're lucky and can use their Mac and be happy, healthy, prosperous and wise.

Re:The 7 stages of grief for highly effective peop by rsmith-mac · 2003-10-22 11:44 · Score: 1

No, I mean mine is a Rev. A 12" PB; I have the same cache, the same bus, and the same memory expansion. The only different is weight/design, and the dual display capibilities, along with a slightly faster processor.

Re:Apple bitches by binary+paladin · 2003-10-22 11:53 · Score: 1

Eh... I'm always really curious about Apple as well and I haven't owned one of their products since my Apple IIgs. For me it's OSX and basically wanting a laptop running it but... then I realize that I cannot justify the cost for aesthetics, since that's all it would be for me.

It's kinda like the classic cars I want but would never buy. If I got one as a gift or as a prize I'd take it, keep it and use it. However, I don't really *need* one. OSX is pretty but there's nothing I use that I need it for. If I was a video editor or a graphic artist I'd spend the extra so I didn't have to use Windows, but as a programmer what does OSX give me that I don't get with Linux or BSD?

I have no problem admitting that I like Macs and would love to own one. At the same time I have no problem admitting that I'm too cheap to follow through with it. This might change with my impending marriage because the intended female seems to think she *needs* a Mac.

Re:Powerbook premium (you forgot) by King_TJ · 2003-10-22 12:07 · Score: 2, Interesting

The 15" Powerbook also features factory defects, such as a poorly designed casing behind the LCD panel, causing pressure on it to form white splotches in the middle of the screen.

Right now, I think anyone would be a fool to buy one. People who just received theirs are having these screen problems in as little as the first few days to 1 week of use. Apple was doing warranty replacements, but so far, the replacements had the same issues as the originals.

(To Apple's credit, though, many of the Apple support people are starting to admit they're aware of the problem - and some new orders for 15" Powerbooks have stopped shipping. It looks like some sort of fix is in the works.)

Re: THE BIG DIFFERENCE by ghettocat · 2003-10-22 12:08 · Score: 1

You missed the fact that ibooks do NOT have a PCMCIA slot, that's a biggie to me.

Hmmm by birdman666 · 2003-10-22 13:14 · Score: 1

Did someone say Powerbook G5 soon?

That's the only way Apple could get away with the thin line between the iBook and Powerbook. I for one can't wait for that beast.

--

Nothing from nowhere I'm no one at all

It's in the eMac by extra88 · 2003-10-22 14:42 · Score: 1

It *is* unusual that it's not mentioned in their description of the G4 iBook but the eMac tech specs mentions "Velocity Engine." I bet it's either an oversight or just a marketing change to stop pushing the "Velocity Engine" as a marketing term.

Re:It's in the eMac by ModernGeek · 2003-10-22 15:02 · Score: 1

The eMac has already had the G4 with Altivec for quite some time, so the only G4 that isn't advertised with it would be the iBook. We need to squeeze the real specs out of Apple somehow, I say we all email them.

--
Sig: I stole this sig.
Re:It's in the eMac by rootofevil · 2003-10-23 05:20 · Score: 1

so instead of trying to fry their webserver we hit the mailserver instead?

bringing the /. effect to every service known to man...

next week, lets toast a finger server!

--
turn up the jukebox and tell me a lie

Different *from* by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 14:59 · Score: 0

You mean "a different league from the above," dumbass.

So you think :-) by MacDork · 2003-10-22 15:12 · Score: 1

Yeah, and she just wants a new rug too. That's all. Honest. But then it doesn't match the drapes... oh well, it's just new drapes. Couch... reupholstered. Paint? Wallpaper. Pretty soon, she's got a whole new room.

Welcome to the flock brother. Let us know what she thinks of her new iBook after you've been lectured about iMovie, iPhoto, iDVD, iChat, iSight, and iGiveUPHeresYourDamniBookAlready! ;)

Re:So you think :-) by MORTAR_COMBAT! · 2003-10-23 01:12 · Score: 1

People seem to think that I didn't want the iBook. On the contrary, I wanted her to get the iBook. The "thank you Mr. Jobs" was indeed sarcastic, but in a different way than people seem to have taken it. I'd rather support a new iBook than some new x86 laptop with Windows on it.

--
MORTAR COMBAT!

on power consumption of G4 in 12'' iBook G4 by Mariner77 · 2003-10-22 15:40 · Score: 1

For those of you who are curious how the G4 will affect the power usage in the new iBook, here is some info (800 MHz only).

First, there are two versions of MPC7455 that Motorola produces (ignoring the MPC7445 for now since exact same statements apply), they are designated by XPC7455RX800LC and XPC7455RX800NC. The LC version, with a core voltage of 1.6V is the one that's published on Motorola's website, it has a power rating of 17W (typical) and 24W (Max), which is terrible for notebook application. The NC version, on the other hand, has a core voltage of 1.3V and its power rating is 11.2W (Typical) and 15.9W (Max) which is reasonable. I believe this is the version that Apple's using in their 12'' iBook G4.

You can see for yourself at http://e-www.motorola.com/files/32bit/doc/data_she et/MPC7455RXNXPNS.pdf

Quite a surprise by Sebby · 2003-10-22 16:05 · Score: 1

I always thought Apple would keep crippling their entry products to unusable levels compared to their higher end stuff.

With this move, they've removed one of the biggest complaints of thier entry laptop, while still making it fairly affordable, and really not too crippled considering the specs and price.

They might finally be waking up to the idea of making a good entry level alternative that's equally attrative as their higher end stuff....

--

AC comments get piped to /dev/null

FYI: it's not a dongle! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 16:41 · Score: 0

Dongles are for security, copy protection, etc. What you have on your video port is an adapter.

http://www.e-consultancy.com/knowledge/glossary/ 80 5/dongle.html

Re:Correction...Nothing worse than AN arrogant dic by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 16:44 · Score: 0

And you, sir, are by contrast the paragon of eloquence and maturity... NOT!!

Re: THE BIG DIFFERENCE by JamieF · 2003-10-22 18:52 · Score: 1

Nor does a 12" G4 PB. IMHO the 12" iBook and 12" PB G4 are pretty similar, though I guess if you add up all the little differences they are worth a few hundred bucks.

Maybe once we get to see some iBook vs. PB benchmarks, the differences will become clearer.

Re:Powerbook premium (you forgot) by Blackstealth · 2003-10-22 20:46 · Score: 1

The 15" Powerbook also features factory defects, such as a poorly designed casing behind the LCD panel, causing pressure on it to form white splotches in the middle of the screen.

I ordered a 1.25Ghz 15" PowerBook the day after they were announced. Being one of Apples less cared about customers in Europe it took 34 days to arrive. But it's mint, with no defects whatsoever. Everything fits flush and the screen is magnificent - no white spots, no scratches, no dead pixels.

great laptops by irabinovitch · 2003-10-22 21:05 · Score: 1

I still have my original 500mhz G3 ibook. I highly recomend them. They take a pretty good beating and will run Linux and OS X. Cant promiss X will work on the newer models yet. It seems everytime apple upgrades they change the video slightly, but the ppc developers seem to be on top of it. In the LUG I regularly go to I think theres 8 or so iBooks running debian. We're all pretty happy with them.

Re:Getting there.. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-22 23:16 · Score: 0

I'd say it does bother you, otherwise you wouldn't have made a journal entry about it.

Fascists... by ErnstKompressor · 2003-10-23 00:12 · Score: 1

You said it. There is definitely a small group of latently homosexual, self-hating fascists, running 'round these parts...but that is probably a compliment to these tweenies. "Blah, blah Apple fanboy, blah blah...zealot, blah blah, gay, blah, blah, blah..." Maybe they'll take a hint a meet up for a circle jerk with their KKK brethren, light a cross and if we're lucky, blow themselves off the face of the Earth.

--
We apologise for the fault in this post. Those responsible have been sacked. -- Signed RICHARD M. NIXON

Re:Fascists... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-23 14:05 · Score: 0

You're comparing people who dislike Apple and Apple products with card-carrying KKK members? Oooookay. And you call US zealots. Fucking fanboy.

you COMPLETE TOOL by RMH101 · 2003-10-23 00:14 · Score: 1

speaking as someone who actually buys corporate hardware, from IBM and other vendors, this is complete rubbish.

i'm not a particular fan of IBM, but their hardware division rules: all the kit looks a bit like darth vader, sure, but it does what it says on the tin with a guaranteed TCO. when i reported a BIOS issue with a particular card we use for data capture, their hardware team WROTE A NEW BIOS FOR US in a week: how much better can you get?

Re: white spots on Powerbook 15" by King_TJ · 2003-10-23 03:59 · Score: 1

Well, there's a whole message thread discussing it here:

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.php?s=&thread id =180531

Someone posted a picture of the problem here:

http://homepage.mac.com/filmmaker2002/PhotoAlbum 15 .html

A petition to recall the Powerbook 15" for this issue has been posted here:

http://www.petitiononline.com/applelcd/petition. ht ml

And here's an article on MacFixIt regarding the issue (plus some talk of problems people had with lots of bad RAM shipping in Powerbook 15" models):

http://www.macfixit.com/article.php?story=200310 23 025442258

None of this even touches on yet another issue some Powerbook 15" users are reporting -- latches that stick. So basically, no - I'd rather wait a while before buying a new Powerbook 15". If yours keeps working great, teriffic - but the odds don't seem to be good.

Ooops!! There it is! Re:No Velocity Engine !!! by javaxman · 2003-10-23 06:44 · Score: 1

Sorry for the false alarm guys, the words "Velocity Engine" are on the iBook pages ( at least, they are now ), they just weren't where I expected to see them and I missed it.

updated pages ! marketing slip-up!! by javaxman · 2003-10-23 07:04 · Score: 1

Actually, this smells like a marketing slip-up!

I've confirmed, with the help of a co-worker's browser cache, that Apple changed thier web page since I first posted about this! It now says "Velocity Engine" in the iBook page as well, on the first paragraph no less!!

Too funny! I'm glad to learn that the omission was a mistake!!

Re:Does it really matter anymore? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-23 11:11 · Score: 0

Ah, but this is from one of those strange p[eople who view MS as the only way to compete. Apple posted profits 20 out of the last 22 quarters, to me that looks like a company that is doing just fine. I even own Apple shares :)

Apple is a succesful company at what they do. A vertically integrated computer company. It's a pity that trolls such as the origional poster have trouble trealising this. Perhaps the concept of "vertical" is a little complex for them :D

New iBook G4 does have velocity engine by nozpamming · 2003-10-24 00:47 · Score: 1

The new iBook will have the normal G4 velocity engine.

If it wasn't in the tech specs before...it is now.

he is a professional writer :P by bean_tmt · 2003-10-24 08:40 · Score: 1

/nt

Re:Does it really matter anymore? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-24 22:33 · Score: 0

A truely bad analogy. Volkswagen (which Audi is part of) is not a reliable car manufacturer. According to the
JD Powers reliability survey, VW is only better than Suzuki, Daewoo & Kia, and way worse than everyone else. (I am an ex-Audi owner, enjoying the significantly more reliable Suburu that I replaced the Audi with)

Not that it matters, it's all about "branding", and VW sell to the same demographic as Apple, where it's all about being "cooler than the mid west republican bible belt" than "reliability".

As for Apple laptops; all Tier1 laptops are pretty good, but you want to get good service from the vendor _when_ it breaks. Dell & IBM can do this (you can pay a bit extra to get 3 year _on site_ service), whereas AppleCare costs more than what Dell charge and requires you to "return your laptop to shop and wait until they fix it", which is pretty bogus given what how much extra you pay for Apple hardware.

Of course, this doesn't matter to the zealots. And to think that if the situation was reversed and it was Apple having better warranty plans than Dell/HP/IBM, we'd never here the end of it from the objective Apple fanatics. ;-)

Clarification: These iBook G4s DO have AltiVec. by Masque · 2003-10-25 09:43 · Score: 1

This is a quote from Apple's newly-released Developer Note for the G4 iBooks:

PowerPC G4 Microprocessor
The PowerPC G4 microprocessor used in the iBook G4 has many powerful features, including an efficient pipelined system bus called MaxBus.

Features of the PowerPC G4 include

32-bit PowerPCimplementation

superscalar PowerPC core

Velocity Engine (AltiVec technology): 128-bit-wide vector execution unit

dual 32 KB instruction and data caches

an on-chip level 2 (L2) cache consisting of 256 KB with a clock speed ratio of 1:1

high bandwidth MaxBus (also compatible with 60x bus)

fully symmetric multiprocessing capability

So there we have it.

last post! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-27 06:42 · Score: 0

i succeed it!

Is this Anonymous Choad??? by ErnstKompressor · 2003-10-30 05:42 · Score: 1

I am starting to enjoy the 'choad' posts...

And no, I am not comparing the 'people who dislike Apple' to KKK members, I'm comparing the "rabid 'gay-slandering' 'faggot-spouting' inconsiderate, intolerant/untolerable 'fanboy-calling' assholes who troll the Apple stories", to KKK members...Is that any clearer?

--
We apologise for the fault in this post. Those responsible have been sacked. -- Signed RICHARD M. NIXON

Anonymous Choad??? by ErnstKompressor · 2003-10-30 05:59 · Score: 1

As I said elsewhere,I really look forward to the 'choad' troll. I appreciate the constant reminder of my superiority over AC choad -- not based on what I buy, or how much I spend, or what OS I chose to use, but rather for my deep understanding of the sad situation AC choad must be in. Threatened, lost in the world, unable to express itself in normal social situations -- forced to vent it's rabid anger and venom to no one in particular. --

Calling me an uniformed moron??? How am I uninformed? I work on my computer. I make back a hundred-fold the investment I put into my hardware -- money I would not earn if I used a different platform. I do not slander or ridicule other people's choices of computer -- I used Linux before you probably got your first PC with Windows 98. I am a person -- there are many like me -- we constitute 'people' -- and we do actually like Apple products -- we don't play games on our computers, we work on them. We don't have penis-size competitions regarding the speed of our boxes, or the free-ness of our OS, we are usually too busy doing real work -- close the dorm room door and forget about getting a life -- you have already proven that you will never have one -- Apple computer or not...

--
We apologise for the fault in this post. Those responsible have been sacked. -- Signed RICHARD M. NIXON

Re:Anonymous Choad??? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-10-30 23:01 · Score: 0

Shut your fucking cakehole, you cocksucking fanboy you. I don't want to hear another god damned work escape the confines of your cocksucking mouth. Got it? Shut it. Shh. Shhh. Shhh.

For the last time...it's Mr. Fanboy to you !!! by ErnstKompressor · 2003-10-31 03:58 · Score: 1

Actually, can we use the term "Fan-Man" at least...I haven't been a boy in decades...

--
We apologise for the fault in this post. Those responsible have been sacked. -- Signed RICHARD M. NIXON

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