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Stealth Inflation
prostoalex writes "The New York Times on the Web explores the topic of incorrect bills and numerous surcharges with names like 'assessment', 'handling', 'restocking', etc. David Pogue quotes Business Week magazine, where it says that such small charges $100 million annually for hotels, $2 billion for banks and $11 billion for credit-card companies. Users of landline phones, cell phones, checking accounts and credit cards are starting to suspect that such huge revenue might imply the mistakes are made on purpose. Is it just another conspiracy theory, or are we becoming victims to the stealth inflation?"
How about physicians? I had a couple appointments with my family doctor to regulate my blood pressure... At one of the earlier appointments she took an EKG. Being 24 and never having one before I wanted it explained to me. She spent 2 or 3 minutes (and I am being loose here with the timeframe, it was only as long as it took me to put on my jacket and hat) explaining the peaks and what she thought they meant.
.02,
Out the door I went into the world to get a new prescription filled and pay my co-pay...
A few weeks pass and the bill from the doctor's office comes showing what the insurance company paid, etc, and that I owed $5. No biggy, pretty typical. I did see that she charged my insurance company $103 for an "EKG Consultation Fee". Call me insane but there is absolutely no way she had the right to charge $103 for a 2 minute deal.
I went in the next time and not so calmly explained to her that she will not do that again without a) telling me what she is going to later charge, b) lying about what she was really doing, and c) being a cheat.
We wonder why insurance costs so much... It's because of hidden fees and bullshit that the medical industry decides to make a quick buck on.
That doctor made as much in 2 minutes as I do in 6 hours at work... She will NOT fleece me again like that... To those of you that say, "who cares, your insurance covered it." I say that my insurance co-pays just went up and they probably won't stop there. I am not going to stand idly by and watch this shit go down and you shouldn't either.
How about my bank? TCF here in Minnesota. I *pay* for their advanced online banking service (it's just like any other free service I have had before but it shows all the transactions immediately unlike their free version which just shows a balance). I started noticing that I was being charged for using out of network ATMs when I wasn't using them. I had four $6 charges in a six week period. I had to call them each time and get them removed. It wasn't an issue to get it removed it was the unsettling feeling that other people out there that don't have the advanced online banking are getting ripped off, a lot.
Sad state of affairs these days...
Just my worthless
Is it just another conspiracy theory, or are we becoming victims to the stealth inflation?
Yes, in that order.
Next week: Ninja Tax!
When anger rises, think of the consequences.
Confucius (551 BC - 479 BC)
Inflation hasn't only gone up because of things like this, but because of the increasing dollar amount of taxes being subtracted from paychecks. Even if your paycheck is the same as 10 years ago, your take-home pay is very likely less. These surcharges are yet another way that make you think you're making the same amount - when really, you're making less and less, every day.
...think of it this way; if you cut your bill short by a few cents, the system would cut off your service faster than you realized your mistake. And yet they can't employ the same error checking the other way around?.......
this EP is for all my goo friends everywhere and to those who pretend to be my friends a punch in the groin and kic to the face
$699 for you know what
This article is totally right! I was just looking at my software bill for this month. What are all these $699 charges for Linux? I'm glad I checked!
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
Maybe I'm REALLY paranoid, but I figured it was intentional long ago, and have since merely accepted it. Since when does "handling" in the shipping and handling for a two pound item justify an extra $10 expense? Online, I've taken to shopping where I can get free shipping. It feels more honest, and I like making the statement that I appreciate it.
Damon,
http://actionPlant.com
It all started with adding the sales tax to an item's advertised price to make up the real cost to purchase it.
That still annoys me.
sigs, as if you care.
This shouldn't really be a surprise unless you still believe in the essential goodness of humankind (!)
It's a simple-enough risk calculation - how much will I gain by people not noticing or not bothering for $xxx, how much will I lose by annoying customers. If that comes out positive, it's a good business (and only business) decision to do it. You'd need to re-analyse the figures periodically, and figure in public opinion when news breaks like this, but essentially it's money for nothing.
So, why are we surprised ?
Simon.
Physicists get Hadrons!
I wasn't aware that the Iraq war would inflate the price of the B-2 bomber. Guess I'll have to get the model without leather and heated seats.
Shucks.
Byzandula -Beware the lolipop of mediocrity; One lick and you will suck forever.
Now I doubt that the companies intentionally make the mistakes in order to extract more money from the customer...
Now that being said, I think that the companies intentionally do make extra charges all around and hide them intricately in deals as they see there. It wasnt 800 minutes but 700 plus 100 minutes. Now no one in the world is going to ask about that. I know to ask about extra hidden charges, but no that.
I think that the companies then through the complication of such systems easily profit from mistakes related to calculating the charges and fees. And they are not going to do anything to fix such errors.
So the question remains by not doing anything is that the same as actually cheating the customer... This client says YES.
30% Troll, 50% Underrated, 10% Interesting
Score:5, Troll
Like the "lifeline service fee" that gives free phone service to people who can't afford it... It's just another hidden tax.
There's also the "airport service fees" at airports.
And I love how, the few times I have been in the hospital, I end up getting 30 different bills from 30 different organizations and SELDOM does the whole thing get handled by insurance companies without my having to get involved.
I'm sure its all accidental .. and the fact that the charges are never in the consumers favor is a mere coincidence.
Of course sales of 'random billing error' plugin modules are skyrocketing! ... again, coincidence
It's sad that when people tell horror stories, others reply, "Yeah, that's about normal." We should not sit idly by while companies continue to 'mistakenly' swindle consumers out of money. I have personally spent countless hours fighting with RCN (a cable/phone/internet) company to refund $182.91 that they owe me. The full story is available at my RCN sucks page. I've had to resort to telling my credit card company to refuse payment, because RCN still refuses to return the money they owe me.
I'd be inclined to agree, at least some of these ridiculous surcharges are deliberate. Recently, I purchased some DDR Ram, for which they tried to charge me extra to test it. When it arrived, I installed it, and my machine did nothing at all. I got the RMA, and sent it back for refund - they told me I'd get the "restocking" fee.
Thankfully, I'd used VISA to buy it, and complained to my bank, which refunded it in toto. The company did, eventually, issue me a credit - not only did they take out their "restocking" fee, but charged me to test it when it got there, *and* then credited me based on the current price of the ram, not what I'd paid!
Thank heaven for VISA. I did get *all* my money back (had to let the bank take the pitiful excuse for a refund that the company issued).
So yes, these "hidden" charges are, in at least some cases, the way companies can increase their profit margins. Caveat emptor, indeed!
Lemon curry?
My sister has a cell phone and a whole bunch of roaming charges showed up on her bill. The problem with this is that she was physically local, making local calls. The provider said that sometimes the calls use different towers and sometimes show up as roaming charges, and removed the charges.
;-)
But if they know this happens, why don't the charges get removed by the phone company before a customer is billed. I'm sure a bunch of people just payed it, not thinking twice... cuz people are dumb.
Oh and I stayed ambiguous not to incrimiate Cincinnati Bell Wireless (AT&T)...oh..oops
In California a year or three ago one of the major grocery store chains was slapped with a class action lawsuit and lost, IIRC. They were just ringing items up slightly wrong, like collard greens as the more expensive kale (happened to me. Twice. I don't shop at that chain anymore) or $.99 instead of $.79 for misc. food in a can, small stuff, stuff you probably don't notice 99% of the time. Spread it out across a year, they could screw customers out of maybe $100 each. Multiply that by however many people you've got buying groceries at your stores and that's a lot of "revenue."
I love how they charge us all a flat rate fee on our cell phone bills for 911 service. Its because they have to update their systems to meet FCC requirements for E-911, but the way I see it, is that I am being charged for trying to call for help. So the first time I see a telephone in a car accident, I will ask for the dollar they charge me on my cell phone bill before calling for help. And then charge him for the help i provided.
I'm not collecting a salary for my service (that would void me out of the good samaritan law), i am mearly getting a service fee for the training needed to help him.
30% Troll, 50% Underrated, 10% Interesting
Score:5, Troll
If two-bit entrepenuers have figured out that this is a sneaky and effective profitmaker, I am sure it is not lost on the bigger, hungerier corporations....
=========
Together, we will drive the rats from the tundra.
Honestly, you must consider the fact that throughout all time, people have use euphemisms in order to hide the reality. Confusing language is the tool of every good businessman, like it or not.
.... it should be covered in the mutually negotiated fee!
The poster proposes a false dilemma:
"Is it just another conspiracy theory, or are
we becoming victims to the stealth inflation?"
Clearly both are true, if one accepts the
non-standard uses of "stealth" and "inflation".
-I like my women like I like my tea: green-
- CALIFORNIA CODES
The beauty (or horror, depending on your perspective) is the "unfair" part. What was not technically illegal in the past may now be sued for if it is "unfair."BUSINESS AND PROFESSIONS CODE
SECTION 17200
17200. As used in this chapter, unfair competition shall mean and
include any unlawful, unfair or fraudulent business act or practice
and unfair, deceptive, untrue or misleading advertising and any act
prohibited by Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 17500) of Part 3 of
Division 7 of the Business and Professions Code.
Next case, hidden bank and ATM fees...
Slashdot "libertarians": Small government for me, big government for those I disagree with. -1, I disagree with you
Assume a background of random errors. Now in usual circumstances, clients are able to fix mistakes quickly: if someone overcharges in a shop, or if you get shoddy goods or service, it's easy to complain and get your money back. As more and more sales get done online, as credit card statements get longer and more complex, as suppliers get futher and further away, we will see the less disciplined suppliers making more profit.
Example: the company I use for registering domain names made a mistake and charged for a domain name that was actually not available. Now, after some hours of trying to get service, I just let it fall. Hours' work to get $35 back is just not worthwhile. I'm not even annoyed with the company, it's my choice to let it slide.
So, over time, there will be an inflation in the greyness of transactions, ironically quite the reverse of what you'd expect from a more and more automated system.
Haha, this gives me a terrible idea. In decades from now, I guess we'll have shifted to a system whereby basic consumables are paid by taxes levied on our level of income. Much simpler and eventually the same result. Think RIAA taxes, but on the entire arena of consumer products.
OK, sorry, ruined your evening.
Ceci n'est pas une signature
Back in the 80's my mom used to record _all_ of her long distance calls and numbers on the calendar next to the phone (having only one phone, and little kids who didn't use it helped) and every few bills they'd try and screw us out of 50 cents to a dollar. After 2 years of calling up and screaming she started going into the main office and grumping in person, demanding the manager etc. After a couple of those and proof that we weren't home on days when calls were billed our bill mysteriously quit having problems and has been that way for the last 15 years.
I know we all have a sad story about this, and looking the person's post about medical fees, it reminds me of at least three or four times I have been screwed by medical misbilling. BUT, the simple truth is, these bastards know they can get away with it. ...the hotel know they can jack up the fee 10 bucks because it's late and you guarenteed it with a credit card ...the e-tailer that sells you the memory or video card knows they can tack on 6 dollars special handling fee (or something else made up; I was charged $3.50 last week handling fee for an automated refund from a company that owed me $4.20) because i'm not going to return their card for a silly 6 bucks because i want to play games now, not wait 6 days for the return and rebuy elsewhere ...and the most important one, people that don't know or are too ignorant to check...people get screwed alllllll the time and they just don't know enough to ask.
Many companies have a policy of "settle on audit". They adjust their business practices so that any errors will be in their favor; then if they're caught they apologize and settle. This is similar to an earlier policy called "Devil take the hindmost".
voodoo economics!
I have to point out on my new Sprint bill, there is a $2.50 charge A MONTH for Number Portability, should I ever decide to change to another carrier. I know they had said it would be a reasonable fee, but that is outragous. Multiply that $2.50 per customer, per month, and that's one HELL of a profit. Sure would love to start a movement to blow that scam out of the water...
Mine means my own, but how can this be if I owe for it?
1. Announce service
2. Make mistakes
3. ?*?*?...
4. Profit!!!!
Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
When I got my first student loan back in 1992, the cut out 4.5% right away... Called origination-destination charges or something like that...
:)
They took like $600 US before the check even arrived at the school!
You might notice these fees apply more to people who are in need. I remember when I first got out of school I had trouble saving money, and a few times my bank account fell below the minimum and they got me for $25 bucks. Of course now that I make a good income, I find that I don't get caught on many of those hidden fees. Everyone wants to be nice to me now
Of course I do pay higher taxes, but I really didn't notice that as much as you would think.
Peace, or Not?
The credit card and phone businesses are the biggest culprits. Tell them of your dissatisfaction and move your biz somewhere else.
The phone bills are the BIGGEST joke. Hidden fees everywhere . Making this a big matter by the media will help and put the spotlight on the problem . The only answer might be with legislation by congress.
I think there's a LOT of this nickel and diming going on... I switched banks because of it, but it's a little harder for servies which there is no real competition (land line, etc.)
I called and asked why I had a $31 credit this month and the phone rep. said that it was an overcharge compensation having to do with DEX. She couldn't explain it any further but said that all Qwest customers were getting it.
So, after reading the summary on this topic I'd normally agree, but after this experience I'm not sure I would. It's costing Qwest money to fix the problems, so I don't think it was a purposeful mistake.
My Sept 2003 VerizonWireless bill had an error on it to the tune of $220 for early termination, plus reactivation, plus taxes on that. This was Verizon's fault, and I called them right away. They promised to fix it asap. Didn't do it. Next month, I called again. Nothing happend. Just talked with them again yesterday, and they swear it will be done on Friday. Needless to say, when I call tomorrow, I expect to get another run around.
:-)
Or maybe they don't take you serious unless you call them at least 3 times.
Until you've paid I advise getting involved as little as possible. In fact, I advise against getting involved by paying and trying to get the money back. Its amazing how much harder they'll work to recoup money vs. how hard they work to return your money.
I also have a semi-firm policy of ignoring bills that arrive for the first time more than a year after services. If you wait to bill me until after I've filed away receipts from last year and have a fuzzier memory of the event, you can wait a few years longer.
t
It's just the most recent revenue stream.
In college, my roommates and I had a "family talk" plan with Cingular. Every month, you had to call up because of bogus roaming charges or similar increases. They are betting on the fact that most people won't bother, especially for only $1 or less. But if one million people are overcharged by 30 cents, and only 100,000 complain, the company has now made $300,000 and as long as they can settle the 100,000 complainers with that amount or less, they come out ahead.
Look at rebates. The whole idea behind them is that even with a 100% money rebate, only x% of people will actually send in the rebate, and only y% will be valid. Hell, how many people will complain if they deny a rebate submission, I would, but I have a spite factor.
In terms of the cellular industry, or any other industry with competition and technology bringing down prices, the companies will look for new methods to get back any lost revenue.
Just make sure you always fight it, write an email, make some phone calls, but most importantly Don't use companies that screw you over!
-dave
/., where "Apple and Google provide Iran with nukes" will be refuted with "But Microsoft is a convicted monopolist"
My main experience with this sort of thing was with MCI long distance. I will never willingly do business with MCI, Worldcom or any related company again. Everything they did was entirely intentional and designed to prey on their customers.
I started out with a plan that was 5 cents a minute, no monthly fee. I never looked at my bills very carefully. About a year later, I noticed that there was a $2.95 / month fee, and daytime calls were 10 cents per minute. I thought about it, and decided that I may have actually started out like that it it might have been my imagination that I started out a 5 cents, no fee.
Another several months go by. In this time, I start online billing (no paper statement, charge to credit card (I think)). Eventually, I noticed that I was now paying $5.95 per month, 25 cents per minute during the day and 10 cents evening and weekends. So emailed customer service, and their response was something like: "We notified you of the change on the back of your statement. By not complaining, you agreed to the new rates.". I searched, and there was no notification on my online statement. There was a notification in small print about 5 clicks away on something called "paper statement" which was apparently different from the online statement, but that I had no reason to suspect had any information not contained on my statement.
That was enough. I called them to tell them to go to hell, at which point they offered to switch me to a 5 cents / minute plan with no fee. Gee, why on Earth would I believe for a second that they'd leave me on that plan? I said no thanks, and signed up for bigredwire, which charges me 4 cents a minute, no fee, and has continued to do so for about a year now.
Such shady business practices. Hoping that I wouldn't look at my bill closely enough to see how they were screwing me, and then lying about it when I called them on it. If that's how they treat their customers....
But, like stealth inflation, you just can't see them. Whaddaya expect? They're ninjas!
We had a nailed-up Centrex ISDN connection to another build for about 4 years through PacBell aka SBC. We replaced it with SDSL a few months ago. It took 4 months of calling, faxing, and sending complaints to the state attorney general's office for them to stop billing us for the ISDN. Every fsking time we called, we took down names and were given assurances that it would be taken off and nothing happend. I can't help but think that it's a pattern and that they see a nice revenue stream from companies that don't take the time to fight.
"Eve of Destruction", it's not just for old hippies anymore...
How about the "delivery" charge my electric company charges me? They didn't even install all the wiring and poles out there. The provincial government did long ago an then this company took over when it was privatised.
Fees! Fees! Fees! Companies can't raise prices, so they're socking consumers with hundreds of hidden charges--and that's creating stealth inflation and fueling a popular backlash
America used to be the land of the free. Now, it's the land of the fee. Companies, hard-pressed for money, are taking every possible opportunity to nickel-and-dime people to death. Need a monthly brokerage account statement mailed to you? Ameritrade (AMTD ) may charge you $2 per statement. Want your hotel room cleaned? The Alexander Hotel in Miami Beach, Fla., will bill you an extra $2.50 daily for housekeeping. Have to return a new camcorder? Best Buy (BBY ) Co. will dock you 15% as a "restocking fee." Want to buy a season ticket for pro football? The New York Jets will make you pay $50 for the privilege of getting on their waiting list.
The U.S. economy has become sneaky. Inflation is officially low, but Americans face an ever-growing mountain of extra charges that are pushing up the true cost of purchases. No area is safe, from retail to finance to travel to sports. "You have companies charging fees for things that were free on an unprecedented scale," says Claes G. Fornell, marketing professor at the University of Michigan Business School.
The extra hits -- each one typically small by itself -- add up to big money. AT&T (T ) could bring in as much as $475 million by charging its long-distance customers a new 99 cents monthly "regulatory assessment fee." Fresh fees for services such as housekeeping will generate $100 million for hotels this year, according to PriceWaterhouseCoopers. Fees on consumers who pay bills online bring banks an estimated $2 billion. And credit-card late-payment fees -- up by 11% over the past year, on average -- could reach an astonishing $11 billion this year, estimates investment bank R.K. Hammer.
The fee frenzy is mainly an attempt by Corporate America to escape the brutal price wars of the past few years. Companies can't raise list prices without losing business, so they are burying higher charges in the fine print instead. "It's much easier to raise a price through obscure fees and surcharges than it is to raise a sales price," says Stephen Brobeck, executive director of the Consumer Federation of America.
The plethora of stealth charges makes it much harder for consumers to use the Internet to do comparison shopping, as they started to do in the late 1990s. The result is that apparently simple buying decisions are turning into a hopeless and discouraging labyrinth. In response, frustrated consumers are fueling a backlash, including the creation of new vigilante organizations to pressure companies to roll back fees.
The growing significance of extra fees means that inflation is understated. Surprisingly, many add-on charges are not reflected in the Bureau of Labor Statistics consumer price index. One reason is that many companies, especially in airlines and telecom, haven't provided the BLS with a full breakdown of their charges. In addition, fees for such things as credit-card late payments and airline-ticket changes -- both rising -- are not included in the government's figures. The implication: Fears of deflation may be overblown. Instead, the true rate of inflation, so important for setting monetary policy, is probably higher than the 2% or so that the BLS is reporting.
State and local governments are also willing participants in the fee game. Rather than hike taxes, politicians are hitting up Americans with a bewildering array of fees, fines, and penalties. Cash-strapped states will pull in $2.6 billion in new revenues this year by raising more than 200 different fees on everything from fishing licenses to fingerprint processing to driving with new tires. On Aug. 15, the fine for driving without possession of a driver's license in New Jersey jumped to $173, up from $44. Some of the charges are ridiculous: With some exceptions, blind Massachusetts residents will now have to shell out $10 once, and $15 every five years, for certification that pro
When it comes to money (specifically, other people getting their hands on yours), everything is done on purpose. Everything. People will do anything they need to do, and will fight harder for money than they will for their own lives. Haven't you figured that out by now?
Use Ctrl-C instead of ESC in Vim!
Here's my take on it. The companies started making all these "mistakes" that net them some extra cash. While all this is nice and lovely, there is going to come a time when the trial lawyers take them to task for some outrageous zillion dollar settlement. Everyone will be part of the class action suit. The companies will lose the case, which means the lawyers will earn about a zillion dollars while the people may get a penny or two. I'm sure somewhere along the lines the lawyers work out some kind of kickback to the companies so they aren't really out a zillion smackers. To summarize:
Consumers get screwed
Lawyers sue
Lawyers get rich
Consumers happy
Lawyers compensate companies
Companies don't change a thing
Consumers still get screwed - but are happy about it
repeat ad infinitum
The only thing left is to start your own business and write everything off as a business expense.
Are the voices in my head bothering you?
I used to work for an outsource bank data processor. We had a customer who required us to apply debits before credits because it generated more fees that way.
Not all banks did this, and it wasn't standard practice (at the time -- don't know now). It was odd enough that it was the talk of our company for a couple of weeks.
It's just like the mail in rebate scam that goes around....
How many people forget to send in those $5 rebates for items?
Here's annother one...
Ever notice the weight of a "pound" of coffee?
Most of them are 300 grams. Not 454g (1lb) or 500g (1/2 kg). 300grams.
Don't forget all the other tricks that companies use, like playing with the labeling on a product or gradually decreasing the amounts. Or the mistakes those scanners make at the checkout.
There's so many opportunities for abuse, for one bent to the bottom line.
n/t.
A sad effect of socialism. Take from the (increasingly-less-)haves and give to the have-nots. While I'm all in favor of poor people getting telephone connections at reduced rates, why does the company want to charge customers that pay the regular rate an additional amount for a facility they won't be using. Also, the 911 fee...don't you think that should be free? If they've disabled your making long-distance and then local calls, but still leave you with a dial-tone, can't you call 911 in an emergency without having to pay a fee???
I've noticed this for years and its gotten entirely out of hand. I am now forced to ask people stupid questions like "How much does the $19.95 a day truck cost?" I was shocked to find out that at UHaul it actually cost 19.95 plus mileage.
I refuse to get phone service because of this, cell or otherwise. It is insane that the priveledge of using over 100 year old technology to talk to people costs on order of 1/2 the amount to power my house for a month.
I pay over $1,600 dollars a year in taxes for my house which is in a city. I always thought that city == trash pickup because of said taxes. Nope, they charge me 15 bucks a month on my water bill for trash, plus 4 dollars "maintence" on the sewer systems. I dunno what the sewer charge is for.
The only way that this is going to stop is if people stop paying for it. I have asked hotels to take off the safe charge.
Back to the phone thing. I promptly canceled my last phone after the 12.95 a month phone cost me over $26 (yes thats double!). I told them that it was deceitful and false advertising and under no circumstances was I goint to pay that, and I have been without a phone for 6 months or so (my work does pay for a cell, so I'm not that hardcore). This phone thing really pissed me off because it was a switch of providers that I agreed to because it was going to save me $10 a month. Being that I was writing a check for over $26 before and after, I do not see how I was saving anything. These extra costs make price comparison imposible and I think that it should be illegal.
Things such as deregulation, increased competition and globalization etc. have all squeezed profit margins. Adding these charges or systematically making mistakes that only a minority will catch all help to increase profits while keeping the headline cost of the product or service the same. Of course it makes comparing genuine prices impossible, but that's the point. It's also the point of making things like cell phone plans as complex as possible - they don't want you to be able to compare between competitors.
I've finally got around to changing my sig
I used to live in NYC, with Verizon for local calls and Sprint for long distance. The Sprint charges showed up on the Verizon bill, along with an extra charge of $2.25 from Sprint for the "convenience" of the single bill. I never requested the single bill. Sprint had no option to have their bill sent separately, which would have been fine by me. I'm sure they were saving money by not having to conduct their own mailing and processing. So they were basically charging me for sending me the bill. Wish I could charge my customers extra for the service of billing them. Shouldn't this sort of nonsense be illegal? To make it even sillier, the $2.25 had a two-month delay, so two months after my final payment to Verizon, I get an additional bill for $2.25. I still use SprintPCS - haven't seen anything silly in the billing - but I'll never use Sprint landline long distance again!
"with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
The NY Times has some of the worst business and economic coverage at times.
The first paragraph is non-sensical.
Inflation is a fall in the monetary standard unit of account. Inflation isn't the rising of prices, but the rising of prices is a result of inflation. As the dollar becomes worth less, prices must rise to still cost the same. Inflation is seen by a rising price of gold followed by rising commodity prices or also in a fall in the exchange rate (although you must be careful with that because if two currencies are both deflating but one is deflating faster than the second, the second currencies will appear to be inflating if you do not look towards other indicators).
The two examples in the first paragraph as exactly this. In the 70s and early 80s Stagflation we say gold shoot up stratopherically and the value of the dollar plummet. That resulted in high commodity prices (oil being improperly blamed on the Arab oil emabargo which had no serious effects) and soon filtered down to consumer prices. The deflation of the late 90s was a strengthening of the dollar driven by growth. A standard way of wording deflation is too few dollars chasing too many goods (or inflatoin as too many dollars chasing too few goods). We produced a lot in the late 90s and Greenspan didn't accomidate the growth so prices and business profits had to fall. (Consumer prices were not pushed negative too much because the CPI measurement has an upwards bias, and by the time the CPI shows falling prices you have to be heavily deflating.)
These were both changes in the monetary standard. All the article is talking about hidden fees. I guess "stealth inflation" has more buzzword points, but there is no such thing.
Argh. The NY Times just looses more credibility each day. Let's go see what crap Krugman is spewing today...
This may have already been mentioned, but as a "profitable" business practice, it would probably be more cost effective to pay a normal CSR to take your call and work with you to correct the charges, then it would be to pay qualified accoutants to make sure the bills are accurate before they are sent out.
If these companies were forced to take action, in the event they were actually found guilty of negligence, they'd probably just outsource the jobs to make up the difference.
My wife had a c-section last November and it required an epidural(sp?). The eppy needle left a slight leak of spinal fluid (happens about 3% or so of the time when they do them), which in turn lowers the brain fluid level, which can cause horrible headaches when the woman stands up (i.e. her brain slaps against the skull w/o the fluid cushion).
My wife started having headaches, and we asked the nurse to get a doctor/anesthesiologist to come check her out. An anesthesiologist comes in and talks to us and says that she probably has a very light case of it (which turned out to be the case) and told her to drink caffeinated soda. It took him 3 minutes to discuss it. Dude didn't even walk all the way in the room - stood near the door the whole time and then left. When we got the statements from the insurance company, it turned out the dude had charged $300 for the three minute "consult"! Total BS... I used to feel sorry for docs in general for getting squeezed by insurance companies (malpractice insurance, HMO contracts, etc.) until I saw that.
It's become a war between the physicians and the insurance industries - elevating the stakes over and over again, forgetting that us peons aren't making enough money to cover the increasing premiums.
Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies... Neil Peart
I've been through countless overinflated medical bills. One instance of double billing: they charged 900$ for an ecography and separately $900 for the personel handling the aparat. After months of back and forth figts with the clinic and the insurance company they finally dropped one of the bills. If you ask me, $900 for a 1h examination is way overinflated to start with.
..., just state the damn final price upfront. If things follow current trend, in 20 years it will take three hours on a Pentium 15 to compute the final price on any service.
I would have a some suggestions:
1. Pass a law that a company is required to pay back a customer 50% of each 'mistaken' billing they make. The % amount is just a suggestion.
2. Pass a law that a company can't charge 'a posteriori', they have to inform you exactly of what they are going to bill you up front, before doing you any service. Better make them need your signature on it. While at that, limit the depth level of financial obfuscation to a (very) small number, even zero. No more 'mail in rebate 1, 2, 3' + 'bonus points a, b, c' +
I think it is reasonably easy to not make 'mistakes' with todays computerized billing systems.
If you don't say *what* services you rendered, and you can come up with something plausible that you did have to spend time on because of that company, while they aren't obligated to pay because you don't have a contract with them... invoicing them also shouldn't be illegal. And if they pay it, well, they chose to pay it.
I have noticed that with my cable provider, when I asked them the price, they quoted me $X. I asked again if X was the final price, and they said, no, there are these other charges, etc. When I added up all that, it was only a few dollars more, but if the bill is supposed to be $X, it should be illegal to charge more on hidden fees that the customer is not made aware of until the bill's delivery. That seems like a scam to me!
stuff |
Dunno about other countries, but in Canada it's against the law (or at least against merchant agreements) to charge a fee for accepting credit cards. For those that don't know, merchants pay a percentage of every puchase you make on credit card back to the card issuer. The $1000 television you just bought on your Visa may end up costing the store 10 or 20 bucks, depending on their merchant agreement. This money cannot be charged back to the customer.
Now, stores up here like to play games with this. They offer a "cash discount" if you pay with anything other than a credit card. It's usually right around what their merchant fee is, in my experience. So bascially, they raise their prices by 1%, and charge everyone who uses a credit card the higher price. Sneaky, eh? What's funny is that some stores claim they do this because of the cost of processing various forms of money. I did retail for a while with the swipe terminals, and I'll tell you, it's FAR cheaper for a business to handle credit card monies - except for their merchant fees.
It simply amazes me that this is allowed to go on.
The other neat one is the "no payment, no interest for 12 months deal", but they tack on a $50 (or more) fee onto the purchase as an "administration fee". Often, it'd be cheaper to get a small bank loan and just pay the damned interest.
Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
In my experience, CC companies do want you to get charged "late fees". My FCNB card is real bad about it. I have to send my bill off within two days of receiving it in order to keep from getting "late" fees. I've sent it off 11 days before it's due and somehow it was still late. 14 is about what you have to have with them. I'm not the only one that had problems with them either. Do a search on FCNB at google. Class action lawsuits, complaints, complaints and more complaints.
i want to play games now, not wait
Get a Cube. Consoles are engineered to be more reliable in what they do than PC hardware.
In all things. There are hidden costs to almost everything whether it be packing, shipping, delivery, surcharges, taxes and flat out mistakes. The challenge is understanding what charges are business related and which are just plain dishonest.
For example: Shipping Handling charges are often viewed as "trying to make a quick buck you a sellser isnt entitled to". There is a good reason to charge them: it costs a business to employ a shipper/handler. Due to competative pricing/marketing the true cost of goods is not build into its price, but tacked on later.
6 to one, half dozen to another, but it is misleading to the consumer!
Physicians aren't the only ones joining this scam (although I consider them the most money grubbing of the lot). My insurance company (UHC) regularly (like +50 percent of my bills) get it wrong. They don't pay the correct amount or they don't take the proper percentage for my co-pay. Their reasonable and customary fees (unpublished) are some rude percentage of the amount several outsourced services haved billed me. (My facility is in a network plan, but some services aren't (radiology).) On several occassions, I have to contest their reasonable and customary payments via a snail mail exchange.
This is intentional and possibly criminal, but my only recourse is to take them to court some 300 miles away. Yeah right.
Some of these bills are just too small to complain about (hidden tax). Others are outrageous errors (criminal intent). With all, I have to call and complain about my bill and wait months for it to get corrected. (I've had bill sent to collection agencies on a number of occassions due to my insurer's performance.) I'm sure there are plenty of people out there paying the bills and not checking, because they can't figure it out.
It stuns me how much my company pays for this coverage. For me any time spent correcting "Explanation of Benefits" I consider to be on my employer's time as this is their insurer. If I add my lost man-hours to the cost of the insurance and then add the incorrect bills I've paid, I can only conclude that my insurer is making a bundle and my employer is getting reamed.
Clearly a fine example of a capitalist conspiracy!!!
machinator omnis sine licentia
I'd just like to go on record and say that I'm very annoyed with Verizon Wireless right now. I got my first bill - we just started service - and not only had the failed to include my corporate discount, but they also pro-rated entire bill because their billing cycle ends 10 days after I purchased this phone. Who doesn't make a bunch of calls when they get a new phone - I can't help but feeling that someone figured this out and realized that by pro-rating they would be more likely to get more overage changes.
Two more beefs. First, they make you cough up a whole extra month on your first bill - kind of like a down payment. It's money that you won't see again for 2 years when you can use it to pay the last month in your contract. They get to keep your money, and do whatever it is they like with it, for two whole years. If you assume 55 million subscribers (the number the last time I checked) and an average monthly fee of $40 - they've gotten $2,200,000,000 (that's billion) in money that they can just sit on for two years.
Second, I signed up for "unlimited" picture messaging. I read the fine print upon getting home to find out that the unlimited part ends on January 1, 2004. Okay - most companies pull this sort of stunt. What Verizon Wireless did to really piss me off was that they imposed the limit on my first bill. My pro-rated "allowance" was 13. I sent 19. I was given a credit - but come on - how many people signed up and won't really read their first bill in detail? Alot.
Corrupt.
Today I just received my next bill. This bill was "supposed" to be significantly less, however it doesn't appear to be. I did receive the credit that was promised above, but I'm currently now trying to wade through the 50 page printout of the bill in detail to determine what is going on.
One thing that I have noticed is that the trial month of the Mobile Web wasn't in fact an whole month. I was only given the first billing cycle "free". As I've written above the whole first billing cycle itself is a crock. I was told by the store's representative that I'd get one "month" of the web for free, not just till the first billing cycle. Another phone call to Verizon is in order.
Your credit must be AAA(wful).
It is called gouging. It is all bullshit, like the Federal excise tax on tires that was supposed to disappear after WWII, but remained on the books as part of a pattern of theft from the citizens. Now ALL countries use this method! Fuck them all.
Now, when you combine this with the fact that Job growth isn't keeping up with immigration you have a serious problem in the US--a problem that appears likey to get worse over time
I think we will see some fundamental, systemic changes to the US economy-changes similar to what the US did under the "New Deal" simply because the problem is getting bad enough that extreme social instability is likely if the problem isn't addressed meaningfully.
It's not just add-on charges either. Much of the Internet, those 300 bazillion cable channels, radio, magazines, newspapers, sporting events, and other things are all funded by advertising.
How many markets are over-advertised, and how has this dragged-down the economy, both nationally and globally? There's nobel prize in the answer for that for someone I think.
I'm very interested in hearing the other side of this story.
Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
The trend in rebates is getting annoying also. Take a look at a BestBuy ad. 90% of the products have rebates to get the advertised price. These people are driving themselves into the ground with trying to manipulate the lowest advertised price. I assume at some point consumers are going to have enough and stop buying there, maybe it will be when every single product in the store has a $20 rebate.
Off topic but I went there on black Friday. I did not expect the door busters to still be there but I thought at least a few of the Fri/Sat only things would still be there. I looked for about 15 things in the ad and the only thing that was still in stock was a pair of $15 speakers. They've been in business long enough to get a general idea of what to stock and how much, "15 per store" is insane and not even worth the printing space in the weekly ad. Thier lack of stock was NOTHING but a blatent attempt of bait and switch to get you in the store. Walmart has it's flaws but they were still putting out pallets of $29 DVD players at 2:00pm. BestBuy probably sold all 5 of thiers (5 indivudual units, not pallets) by 6:01am and the probably were $119 with 3 different $30 mail in rebates that all required the original UPC code and 12-26 weeks to deliver.
These tactics are all "hidden costs" that consumers are subjected too.
Bad boys rape our young girls but Violet gives willingly.
1) Announce Service: $699 Linux IP license.
2) Make Mistakes: "Oh, we really don't have any provable IP in Linux."
3) ?*?*?*...: Check out their latest fiaSCO on GrokLaw.
4) Profit!!!!: $50M from sucker investors who think this will succeed plus pumping up the stock price.
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty.
Ben
Remember when cans of coffee were a pound? A couple of years ago they were 13 oz and the last time I checked th think it was like 11 or 11.5 oz.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I had this argument with ATT and Verizon. ATT changed my long distance plan on me then doubled billed me. It took 6 months of me calling every month to straighten it out. Ther only reason it did straighten out was because I dropped everything ATT and on the last bill I I wouldn't get off the phone untill the Rep zero'ed my account.
Then Verizon 1 year after canceling my contract send s me a bill for 1 months payment. I call up asking where do they come off billing me 1 year later when I paid all the bills. I was on 1 bill so I had to talk to 1 bill, who sent me back to verizon wireless. it took 3 months and a complaint to the better business bureau to straighten it out. The punch line they actually owed me $7.47 because when I canceled they didn't refund me enough. It's 6 montsh later and every month I call and ask for the refund check again.
It's Truly become a let the buyer beware world out there.
The Lunatick, Carpe Corpus!
I want you to repeat after me. "Nothing is free!", again "Nothing is free!". Someone has to pay for 911 and since it's a public service we all pay. Kind of like those paved roads that the Amish use.
If they think they can scam us and get away with it, I see no problem with scamming them back.
Another common practice that consumers are exercising is automatic payments of services, directly from their bank account. This can lead to an even larger headache.
Nevermind the fact that you may get charged more than the cost of a postage stamp for this "convenience". This is also a great way for them to keep your mischarged money for longer than necessary.
When I get a credit card or cell phone bill, and I am lucky enough to notice an error on it, I can always refuse payment on the account (or at least the contested amount) until the problem is fixed. They don't get their money until they have fixed the problem.
However, if you use automatic payment for a service, and they misbill you, they already have your money. Good luck trying to get it back. They don't have much incentive to give you a refund on the mischarge until you've become an extremely large thorn in their side (threatening lawsuits, etc.).
As an example, I had my DirecTV service billed to my credit card automatically every month. One month, I noticed that they charged me twice for my service for the same 30 day period. It took 4 months for me to get the error fixed and get my money refunded. Every time I spoke to them they claimed "We can't refund your credit card, but we can give you a service credit on next month's bill". By saying this, they basically got to keep my money for another month. Then I noticed on the next month's bill that the credit never showed up. Repeat ad nauseum.
I finally had them stop billing my credit card and now send them a check every month.
I finally got so fed up with my bank for charging me insane fees all the time that I shopped around and found FREE banking. It really is free banking too. No charges for cheques, interact or ATM use. I even get points for using online banking. I emailed my old bank and laid out exactly why I was leaving :
1) despite my 10 years of loyalty I was denied a car loan from my own branch while after filing out an online application with another bank I got accepted in 10 minutes.
2) I got charged $12 in overdraft charges when more than enough cash was available to cover the automatic withdrawal (to the tune of $5000 more than what was being taken out).
3) New unnancounced service fees are being charged all the time. Suddenly online banking that used to be free costs 25 cents a transaction.
Anyway they refunded me $50 worth of bank fees but I still left. That's how you win against these idiots. Let them know what their doing wrong and take your business elsewhere!
When I finally turned 18 and headed off to college, I was flooded with credit card offers. I took to reading the fine print to pick the very best ones. There were offers that advertised 'NO ANNUAL FEES' and in the fine print, it would say something to the effect of 'by stating no annual fees we make no promise of the future.' On two of the cards I used to have, I was slapped with random $20 charges - one was called an annual fee and the other was called an 'account maintenence fee'. I called it in and they took them off.
Also, I had cellphone service with Sprint for a week. They promised me 14 days to try the service and get my money back if I didn't like it. Well, I found a better deal with Tmobile (fuck me up the ass) and decided to cancel Sprint. To make a long story short, there were about $260 in random fees from 'disconnection fee', 'early termination fee', etc. I had to spend nearly 3 hours on the phone insisting that each one be removed per their contract that states 14 days free to try out the service. I bet most people that do that end up paying the lower fees just to avoid the $200 early termination fee.
Now.. Tmobile.. that's really a company I would like to sue. They've managed to fuck up my bill every other month (call in and they fix it after an hour of arguing). I get dropped calls more than 1/2 the time. I seldom get a decent signal (in a STRONG signal location advertised by Tmobile). They charged my brother for nights used when his contract was supposed to be for nights and weekends. Since he didn't pay it, it was sent to collections. Tmobile is horrible.. they don't negotiate; they treat their customers like terrorists. Anyone else want to 'class action' against Tmobile? I'm sick of their random fees and lack of usable service.
Sorry about my rambling.. I hate Tmobile so much. I can't wait to walk off with my number at the end of the contract to a better carrier.
--- We need more Ron Paul!
Americans are getting stronger. 50 years ago, you needed a station-wagon to hold $10 worth of groceries. 20 years ago, it took two people to
carry ten dollars' worth of groceries. Now, a five year-old can do it. -Unknown
When I shop for food, I'm a brand-loyalist's worst nightmare. I don't buy based on brand preference, I buy based on value. That means that I buy what ever happens to be on sale, assuming that it's something I like. Typically, how this works out, is that I wait for stuff that I do like to go on sale before buying it. This means that when it's not on sale, I buy something else that's more in line with what I'm willing to pay.
That having been said, since most of the stuff I buy is based on the best price I can find, I know what each item costs at the register. Watching each item as it's scanned, I've pointed out mistakes in the amount being charged on several occasions- sometimes they give it to me for free as a matter of customer satisfaction, and other times they just adjust the price.
I wonder how much extra revenue this creates, as I assume most customers don't watch this closely, and just assume they're being charged accurately.
A friend of mine got a power bill from OOG&E a couple of months ago for over $350. When she called to ask about the rather glaring overcharge, she was informed that it would take a $50 fee to send someone out to re-read her power-meter. So, they left her with a choice of dealing with a mistake, or paying extra to the power company to fix their own mistake.
It's good to use your head, but not as a battering ram.
Increasingly on EBay people are expecting "professional" quality packaging and shipping instead of a reused Amazon box from the recycling pile. I've had a few people whine about it, but I haven't had an item damaged or gotten negative feedback.
If I had to buy new shipping materials at retail for the random crap I sell on EBay, it could easily come to $10 or more for a larger item. Go to your local UPS Packaging Store (ex Mailboxes Etc - BTW why are these places invariably run by grouchy, cigarette-munching old ladies?) and check out the prices of boxes, styrofoam peanuts, etc... $$$
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
Ever go out for dinner, order an entree, and come up a few bucks short because of tax, tip, charges for water, blah blah blah?
Its ridiculous. Most other countries (such as Japan) have a "What You See is What You Pay" system, tax and tip rolled in.
Let me guess: People had trouble spelling and pronouncing "First Union".
Off-topic, I know, but am I the only one getting sick of companies with names like "State Power Corporation" contriving new and more meaningful names like "Trilanovianicium" ? And people get paid big money to come up with this kind of crap.
We're just looking for a new name for it.
"Stealth Inflation" is as good as any.
I work in retail sales (internet based) and there are a ton of expenses that the vendor has to cover during the shipping process. Consider the following:
* Cost of box, tape, packing material
* Paying someone $8-12 an hour to pack the stuff
* payroll tax (add another $2-3 per hour for the packing guy)
* Someone to answer phones when the customer calls in wanting tracking info, etc.
I agree that $10 handling for a 2 pound box is a bit exhorbitant, but nonetheless handling fees must be there for the company to at least break even.
I had one credit card that they would always be slow processing the payment check. Even if I sent it back to them the day I received the bill, the next month I would be charged a 'Late Payment Fee'. And then since they considered me late they doubled the APR % I was paying! I have long since cancelled that card, but I'm sure other companies are waiting to take advantage. Always read your bills. I had one phone company completley change my billing plan (more expensive of course). When I called to ask about the extra charges I was told that I was sent notification last billing period. It turns out to have been on the fine print on the back of the bill!
For some time, credit card issuers have made almost all of their profit on late charges. The interest primarily pays off fraud losses.
I know of one large issuer which has processing centers in many states. It intentionally mails its bills from the one with the longest average snail-mail delivery to your address (a friend of mine was in the meeting where this strategy was hatched at that company). Credit card companies have also greatly increased their late fees (they used to be trivial) and a late payment will usually cause any interest rate deal that you had to disappear, with your rate going very high.
In the good old days, paying your credit card bills on time was the best way to have good credit. Today, credit card companies prefer people who pay late, but always pay, and also those who keep big balances on the cards. Pay your card late and watch the increase in credit card solicitations in your mailbox!
I have a couple of cards that account for almost all my credit card usage. I use automatic electronic payments monthly out to eternity to those cards... payments exceeding the minimum payment expected. This avoids any late payment charges (and the loss of my mileage points) should I not get around to processing the bill and sending in the full payment in time.
The only good weather is bad weather.
Verizon's approach is particularly agregious - they charge for an itemized bill?!?
I smell more class action lawsuits coming on - and I don't care that the lawyers will get 50% percent of the judgement or settlement. This behaviour needs to be stomped on hard core.
Granted, I'm not a network person by any stretch of the imagination, so pardon me for being wrong about my assessment of this situation, but I still don't see why I have to have "cable" in order to have a cable broadband connection. I recognize the need for the data stream of cable in order to be able to hit the 'net. But at the very least, I still have to pay for a basic cable package just to have Internet access (DSL is out of the question for where I live). Can't they somehow "scramble" the basic package so I can't see it, give me my broadband connection, and knock the damn $14 a month extra I pay for something I don't want?
And speaking of things I don't want, and a bit of a turn from the previous paragraph, I remember distinctly the argument between myself and my cell provider about all the "extras". They tried hard as hell to sell me on the text messaging, and sms, and all that jazz, but I have NO NEED for that. They tried hard to sell me on the "convenience" of others being able to get in touch with me (as if they couldn't just call my damn number instead), and my response was "I don't want people to be able to find me." Shit, I must pay at least $100+ for crap I don't want!
Spread the RC luvin'
The article says that it would be silly for companies to do this intentionally, due to the cost of the customer calling in to complain. Seems that, say, credit card companies have no problem spending their reps' time and phone charges on trying to sell you credit protection, or whatever other service they can charge you extra for, so it can't be that much to spend a few minutes on the phone.
Except that errors are not truly random, they are generally structural, i.e. a particular kind of error will be repeated until enough customers complain and it's fixed. Businesses that structurally make errors in the customer's favour will simply be selected against. "Bzzzt! You're Bankrupt!!" Leaving the professionally incompetent in charge...
Ceci n'est pas une signature
It's a fairly minor deal to file a claim in small claims court, and it will definitely get their attention.
They'd have to pay a lawyer much more than the $182 to even address the issue if you file a claim.
And when they want to settle, it is your right to settle for the amount + court and filing fees + attorney's fees (assuming you get legal advice/help).
.sigs are for post^Hers.
Tell the insurance company that you suspect the doctor is charging / overcharging for services which were not rendered. Ever had an argument with an insurance company? Stand back and watch the fun.
Q.E.D
I am not a number! I am a man! And don't you
Ever wondered what 'dealer paperwork' was? Or why in the world, living in a near-tropical climate zone you would need 'undercoating'?
Or, perhaps, has anyone bought a computer from one of those magazines... the ones that 'give' you extra ram for free as an incentive to buy from them? You pay about forty bucks to have the case opened and a DIMM shoved in.
This sounds more like someone wanting to coin a phrase than anything else. However, I don't condone the practice... it is effectively, theft by deception. Especially in those cases where you aren't even notified that you're being raped.
I used to work for MCI as a analyst. My job was to "fix" problems in the billing systems. If an issue was over $20,000 then we would consider resolving it. On several occasions, I came across unreported problems that were costing the customer more money than advertised, and I was told that we' "only resolve issue that are brought to us by customer complaint." Also, if an issue impacted more customers than the complaining customer, no refund was granted, except to the customer that complained. 99% of the issues I was assigned had one complaintant, but impacte 100's if not 1,000's of additional MCI customers.
One issue that sticks out in my mind dealt with the personal 800 service users being charged international rates for a domestic call. Someone forgot the jump in a nested loop. Oops. That COBOL can be trickey. lol.
Gerald Roebke
...is that the Ad for this NYT article is from MCI. Ironic or deceitful?
A co-worker of mine was making an appointment to get his wisdom teeth pulled, and was told he would have to pay $250 up front. The next day he asked the simple question "What is the $250 for?". He was told that they don't file paperwork in advance, so the insurance company penalizes them $250.
The oral surgeon's office was charging this guy for their own laziness. That takes some cajones muy grandes my friend.
I recall Andy Rooney talking about most of these complaints a couple months ago. Although, he has done this as an on-going article. He started back when a pound of coffee first started not being a pound. It was interesting to see how things progressed each time he covered the same topic five years later. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/03/07/60minute s/rooney/main543240.shtml
Almost at the end of the article it says:
"The more customers catch the errors and push back, the more it will cost the service companies to handle them - and the more likely such problems will be prevented."
If it costs more to handle this problem, then the obvious solution would be to add to the administrative fee to all customers since they all potentially benefit from it.
The error-catching is a service! And services aren't free, you know...
This is not my sig.
So, using their words, unfair competition is defined as any unlawful, unfair or fraudulent business act or practice. Well, we already know that unlawful and fraudulent practices are illegal, and covered elsewhere; there are whole sections of the code devoted to them. So that leaves us with unfair == unfair. No shit. Really? This is why I hate legislators. They can't even make a law that isn't recursively defined.
The biggest mistake my insurance company made was to give me online access to my account. Now I don't have to spend an hour on the phone disputing some claim, only to have to call back again and again because it still isn't paid. I can now just relentlessly resubmit it online until it is actually paid, which has proven to be a very effective strategy.
Frylock: That's not a toy!
Master Shake: You say that about everything you own. You should own toys. They're fun.
It doesn't stop there, you know. Automatic deposit for your paychecks gives your employer power of attorney over your banking account. Oops, we put in too much... we'll just take out twice that much... it doesn't matter that you won't be able to pay your car note or your house note or... or...
I'm fairly certain that it works the other way, with direct pay. They gouge you, then they 'fix' it by causing some sort of clerical error(again) that sinks you deeper in the hole.
When I saw the headline of this posting, I was hoping that the article would be about the Federal Reserve Bank. What a disappointment.
The Fed has been printing money like mad, for several years now. This is inflation, big time. The published rate of inflation is below 2% per annum, but this is deceiving. Consider an example: an electric table saw.
Perhaps its price has barely changed in the last two years. Is this an example of low inflation? No. The price changed only a little, but the table saw changed a lot. Two years ago, most of the manufacturing that went into the table saw was performed in the U.S. or Japan, or possibly Taiwan. Today, most of the manufacturing took place in China. The cost of this production decreased dramatically. The price did not. Where did the difference go? Was it turned into profit? Doubtful. Except for markets where a monopoly exists, profits are constrained by competition.
A similar story has developed for services. Consider an insurance policy, a home equity loan, or the interpretation of your last mammogram. Over the past several years, all three of these services became much cheaper to provide, due to offshoring. The labor used to provide these services gradually moved to India. The phone support, the analysis of creditworthiness, the medical transcription, the inspection of X-ray images, all of this (and much more) is steadily moving overseas.
The price, in dollars, of these goods and services has not changed much. The nature of these goods and services has changed tremendously. How is this possible? It's because the government has been printing money like crazy. It's not easy to figure out how much new money is being created. For some reason, newspapers love to report changes in the interest rates controlled by the Fed. They even report rumors of future changes in this rate. The byproduct of these rate manipulations is usually an increase in the money supply, and this information is rarely reported. If mentioned at all, it is in the form of an aside to a more "important" development. I've seen figures ranging from 6% per annum to 12% per annum. I don't know what the true figure is. But I do know that prices on goods and services should be in free fall right now. This, because every month, more of these goods and services are being produced by dirt cheap overseas labor.
We're enduring lower pay and more frequent spells of unemployment, due to offshoring. We're being denied the benefits of cheaper foreign-made goods and services, due to the Fed.
No wonder, you're banking with Twin Schutzstaffel Federal; the bank that can screw you over with 3 $30 late charges because they enter in your transactions out of order.
I bank at Think Federal Credit Union (formerly IBM Employees Mid-America FCU), pay nothing for overdrawing except miniscule interest up to $1000 nor do I pay for a similar on-line service that you pay for.
What I do care about is that if I purchase a Compact Flash that states 512 meg, I get 512 meg and not 500 meg. Goddamit, it states 512 meg on the box, the only reason they get out of it being fraudulent advertising is because they stick a tiny disclaimer at the bottom.
Sure, it's only a small thing ... but they stack up.
Avantslash - View Slashdot cleanly on your mobile phone.
I can agree with a lot of the thoughts on this subject, but people are leaving out a Very Big part of the equation.
Say you're Joe Average. Your family salary is average (say $60,000 a year, combined), with 2.5 kids and a dog.
Joe Average needs a Coronary bypass which conservatively costs $200,000.
Without insurance, Joe Average is dead. With insuance, his outlay is something between $0 and $5000.
Sounds like Joe just won the Lottery. As stated before, my twins and their complicated pregnancy probably would have cost me half amillion dollars out of pocket. As it is, it didn't cost a dime. (well, _maybe_ $200 in co-pays.)
So, Half a million for the birth of two healthy boys. How much has my family paid into insurance? A helluva lot less than that. Perhaps $12,000 over the last 5-10 years.
It's not the annual checkups the insuance covers for you, it's the absolute destruction of all past and future income.
"Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus."
Companies have up to *90 days* to ding you for roaming charges. So if you travel outside of your area, and 2 months later you see the charges, that's normal.
It sucks, but it's normal.
It doesn't matter that you don't have any ninjas. The only federally recognized use for ninjas is pirating copyrighted works. Paying this tax gives you the right to potentially employ ninjas for whatever purpose. The proceeds of the tax go to RIAA and MPAA to cover their losses due to "ninja-ing" of copyright material.
For their part, RIAA/MPAA wave the right to send their ninjas to your house to beat up your 14-year-old daughter.
It breaks my pluginses, my precious!
Yes, because fraud laws only apply to the common person. If the common person starts their own business and then tries this, it will be okay.
Some sanity injection here:
1. Check your bills for extra suspicious charges
2. Contest every overcharge no matter how small
3. Use a credit card to pay small businesses, tips to waiters, etc...so that the recipient hast to report it as income and not cheat the tax system. It's only fair since your employer reports every dime you earn.
I think that this extra money that they make is offset by the extra money they throw away in poor customer service.
As an example:
I recently had a problem with my cable service (which I pay way too much for anyway) over about a 3 week period. Anyway the problem resulted 4 phone calls each about 20 minutes, then a technician coming out who was 3 hours late and so I was not there when he arrived. That resulted in 6 more phone calls averaging about 30 minutes each. Another technician was dispatched. This one was an hour late which resulted in 2 more 15 minute calls.
Then after having 'fixed' the problem we noticed that the tech didn't check the work. We ended up losing about 20 channels. This resulted in about 4 more calls 30 minutes each and another tech being dispatched to fix the problem. He didn't find one but the visit resulted in 3 calls to techsupport just from him. Then after he left 2 more 15 minute calls. Then a call back from the cable company to say they transferred the problem to billing.
The problem persisted I called and was told they could reset my box (which had already been done 8 or 9 times) then told me that billing hadn't responded yet on the problem. They'd call me back. No call back ever came (I've only ever gotten 2 call backs even though I've been told I'd be called back about 10 times). I called again 30 minute call, somehow on that call the woman finally fixed the programming, but only after scheduling an appointment with a technician to 'check the lines'.
All told I received about $200 worth of credits. I used about $100 worth of call center labor, probably close to $200-275 worth of contractor/installer labor, then around 8 hours of MCI/SWB phone time for the time on hold and time talking to reps. Let's say at a minimum $525 for a relatively simple programming/rate problem that one rep fixed on the last call.
Now the cable company says that my experience is not indicative of other customers experiences BUT statistically that would be impossible. If I at a minimum spoke to 20 reps and only 1 out of those twenty actually fixed the problem (and that rep fixed it by accident). Then how is it plausible that anyone else calling in is not getting exactly the same service that I'm getting.
And it's not just the cable companies that are having this problem. It's the phone companies (I received almost 6 months of free service from SBC when I had DSL with them because of various problems and they were already in the red on the service), and ISP's (how much credit is AOL issuing daily).
If they took a little time (and money) on fixing customer care and ensuring service levels then there would be no need for these stealth charges they keep needing to sneak in. If they had proper customer service they might actually be able to save money and lower prices.
In Britain, preserved railways (aka private railways that operate steam trains as an attraction) get billed a 'connection fee' (last I heard, around 300) by the main rail operator (Network Rail) for being connected to the network. The smart ones send it back with a connection fee to Network Rail.
I don't see why you can't bill the company for the amount of your time their facilities used. You couldn't stop them closing their relationship with you, however, which could be difficult for credit checks, and a bit of a pain anyway.
Exercise your right not to vote. thinkoutside.org
For a while, my insurance company had been including a little leaflet with correspondence, that says clearly: if you see a "mysterious" or inappropriate fee on the claim, call them and tell them about it. If they get doctor to reverse it, you get 20% of disputed amount credited to your account.
Now, of course, this can only be done if that "consulation" was what it was -- the charge for 2 minute talk, explaining what peaks and valleys are, and EKG itself and result interpretation were charged separatedly.
Hyperom.com
I am married and my wife raises the kids and manages the home. She also does the bills. We try to do as much electronic commerce as we can, and pay our bills online. Since she knows very well what our expenses ought to be, and has access to detailed statements online and time to go over them, she finds things constantly. Mostly it is just random stuff where you say "wtf?" and make a phone call to get your bill adjusted. But we had a real dust-up with [cell phone service starting with S] over our family cell phone plan, where they were charging us hundreds of dollars extra on our phone bill for months on end. Every month we knew we would have to call them to get $100-$400 worth of charges removed, 8 hour calls to places we never even heard of, totally off the wall. Finally they "fixed" it and we have not been troubled for over a year. If we had not annoyed them so furiously for most of a year before, would our billing ever have straightened itself out? Not on your life! But what in the world actually *changed* in their system to shield us from bogosity I could not tell you!
I am dead certain that most (if not all) [cell phone service starting with S] customers are being overbilled on their mobile phone usage just as we were, and I suppose [cell phone service starting with S] spends a lot of time adjusting bills. There must be some really horrendous software blackhole in their billing system that gravitationally slings stray phone charges all over the database like so many loose asteriods.
Why we sucked up so many nasty stray bits remains a mystery. Were they testing us because we were new with a one year lockin? Rather more a mystery is how it stopped. I can tell you *why* it stopped, and it was because of my wife. So they have control of some kind, which they exercise at need.
What makes you reach for the tinfoil hat is the thought that maybe they don't "fix" the problem at the core because as a business matter it makes them money. Someone did the math and elected to a) invest less in expensive engineers doing process debugging, b) spend a little hiring low-paid phone jockies in Nevada to debate billing issues with irate customers, and 3) scrape off whatever is not adjusted as easy money.
It is the lure of easy money, and avoidance of hard work, that creates this nonsense. Now that we have transferable mobile numbers let's see how long it takes service providers to clean up their act. And, let's see if honest billing impacts the bottom line.
=^..^= all your rodent are belong to us
I recently bought a "refurbished" Dell 18" flat panel monitor. It took Dell technical support (India) FOUR tries to get me a monitor that worked correctly. What did that cost Dell in terms of support costs, shipping, handling...etc? It can't be cheap to insure and ship four flat screen monitors.
I don't think this type of behavior is intentional. It is the unintended consequence of COST CUTTING. In a depressed economy, companies cut everywhere they can...including billing, customer service and support. These cost cutting measures result in alot of mistakes.
And they end up costing companies money.
-ted
Last month I visited a friend in North Carolina and rented a car. When we returned the car there were all sorts of fees with names like "Airport Surcharge Recovery Fee", "County Mandated Foo Fee", etc. The fees and taxes added up to roughly an additional 30%.
.
I have mixed feelings on this. On one hand I like it when the government tax gouging is made obvious. On the other hand I want things to be standard from place to place.
What lots of companies have been doing (hotels, car rental firms, and telcos are among the worst), is to make their prices look lower by "converting" a bunch of their overhead to "fees" that get tacked onto the bill (always phrased to sound like taxes but often including the overhead of handling the supposed manditory tax)
It's like buying a cup of coffee for $0.30 but going to the cash register and finding your receipt reading:
Coffee: $0.30
Property tax recovery fee: $0.10
Business license recovery charge: $0.02
Government mandated workers compensation surcharge: $0.25
Health board inspection fee: $0.08
Employee income tax recovery charge: $0.35
Corporate tax surcharge: $0.20
Sales tax: $0.05
City waste disposal charge: $0.15
That will be $1.50, sir.
As an aside, in a country where one of the rallying cries was "No taxation without representation" our politicians try to subvert that wherever possible. The prime example is outrageous hotel room taxes. Soak the tourists, they won't be able to vote against me.
~~~~~~~
"You are not remembered for doing what is expected of you." - Atul Chitnis
You don't need to believe in any such thing, fraud is a bad buisness model. You may make a little money cheating people, but you can only do it once. More people than you might imagine would rather be without a cell phone than deal with a dishonest company. If they lied to you to take your money, what won't they do? Is a cell phone worth that kind of risk?
Cingular screwed me, Sprint has not. I'll never do business with Cingular again. I paid out my contract as soon as it cost me nothing to move to Sprint due to the difference in policy and I was nervous until I made that move. I also got rid of Bell South long distance because they are associated with Cingular. Cingular's mistake was bigger than they thought it was.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
..a laden or unladen ninja?
Is doing similar things in BC and Alberta. My girlfriend's aunt and uncle built a house recently. They phoned Telus to have phone service setup a couple of months in advance. They moved in 2 months ago and they still have no phone service. 4 months and still no service! They finally just decided to get a cell phone and forget the land line altogether. WTF happened to CUSTOMER SERVICE!!!
When I moved to my new house, I had my long distance service move with me. Even though I now use a cell phone for most of my long distance, when my mother visits I let her use the land line for long distance calls.
My first month at the new house, my bill was less than $2 total. The next month, there was a $5 minimum usage charge. I called up MCI and disputed it, and the restored my original plan with no minimum or monthly fees. Next month, no bill. Next month more than $6 of usage. Last month, there was a $6 minimum usage charge!
I complained on-line this time, but I think they didn't get the complaint because they thought my session had expired. I withheld the $2.70 difference on my bill between usage and minimum usage.
Unfortunately, it appears no one else offers a better plan than what I signed up for. I either have to pay an even higher minimum service fee or pay more per minute for in-state calls. If I get another bill, I'll have my long distance service discontinued and switch to using calling cards for any landline calls (which are even cheaper).
Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
As online biling becomes the norm people are just going to glaze over these charges more and more. I'd expect to see some kind of class-action suit in the near future, as basically some companies are charging for unauthorized fees. Montey Burns just get's richer and we all get screwed. Read your bills people!
It also is incredibly annoying; I've been living in Pennsylvania for almost four years now and still don't know what items have sales tax, and how to tell if a price does or doesn't include sales tax.
In New Zealand, a pseudo sales tax was introduced in the 80s/90s (I think) called Goods and Services Tax, or GST. By law, the price displayed must include GST or state it doesn't include GST and somewhere show what the price is with GST added on. In practice, everyday items always have GST included, and only big-ticket items (e.g. AV equipment and computers) show a price without GST. And those advertisements must show somewhere the price including GST. So, for example, it'll say in large type "$1999", and then down the bottom say "($2248.85 incl. GST)".
But there's no dispute -- it either includes GST or it tells you somewhere on the sign what the full price is including GST. Why, oh why, cannot this be the same in the States?
Some of these charges are mandated by industry. For example some of phone charges (911 access fee, etc) are actually required by the local governmnet, state government, and FCC. What they don't tell you is that what the phone company charges you is more than the mandatory fee. Hence a hidden profit for them.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Somebody is seriously underestimating that number
Caution: Contents under pressure
Anyone out there know why unleaded gasoline cost more than leaded gasoline? Why charge more to *not* put an additive in the gasoline?
To me TM seems like pure scam. I wanted to see a concert. The tickets were $30. The "convenience charge" was $8 a ticket.
Convenient for who?
Sadly it seems Ticketmaster has a near-monopoly for online ordering of tickets of all kinds. Gougers.
Even the delivery people screw you now. We recently ordered a pizza deal (2 Large for $13.99) and when the orderer got off the phone, he calmly announced that the total was $20 and change. Huh? I asked him to call back whereupon we discovered (whoops!) the total was actually $17 (since we also ordered a 2 liter).
Let's see... $3 extra on $17. Yep. They tacked on 17.5% (a tip?) without mentioning it.
On another day, we ordered some chinese food. Food arrived, I looked at the bill, and there was an extra $1 charge on there for absolutely no reason, which the delivery person could not explain, could not reduce, but he definitely said it was normal and no big deal. We'll, that amount was neatly deducted from his tip, in front of him (since I figured it was a delivery fee anyway, no need to pay for the same thing twice).
When I got my final, cancellation bill for my SBC home phone line (advertised for $29.99 monthly, but actually cost over $55.00), they added a cancellation fee of $97.95 for the privilege of disconnecting the line. huh? So I called the phone company to dispute the charge. These people delayed, deferred, and disputed my claims. Initially they said that I was free to dispute the claim, which they noted in my billing record, but that I would still continue to get bills for it. (Net result: nothing).
I had to indicate that I wanted resolution that day, so I made the customer service rep prove to me that I had agreed to a cancellation charge at the time that I had ordered the service. She made many false claims, about notices being on my bill, or on my welcome packet, etc, but when I had her check the archives of my billing records... surprise! I had no cancellation charges listed in my service agreement. Got $97.95 credited and it cost me about an hour of time.
All you have to do is be persistent.
Sign up for SBC DSL service.
Just sit back and watch your bills.
The more you bitch, the more they charge you.
For a residential single DSL account with nothing fancy, dynamic IP, one email account, etc. SBC was ass raping me for an average of $500 ~ $600 a month.
Every time I called and bitched about it they ADDED ANOTHER (non-existent) DSL ACCOUNT to my bill and charged me $200 installation for it.
I finally told them to get fucked and physically cut the wire to my home, now the tail of the wire dangles from the pole and I'm on RR which kicks ass and they don't screw me.
It's not just me either, they did it to me at my office, they did it to three of my friends and they did it to another friend of mine in another county (still on SBC)..
Not to mention the serivce and quality of service was beyond piss poor...
I wouldn't have DSL again if it were FREE...
I have similar problem with my cell phone service, they keep adding shit on it that I don't ask for, like SMS and all sorts of *xx services (such as *50 to hear the weather report. Bullshit, look out the window.)
Every month I go through the meat grinder with them. One of these days someone is going to snap and go in some place and start whacking people. Overbilling rage, I'm sure there's a term for it..
What really pisses me off though are ATM fees. They're not even as bad here (yet) as they are in some places. Not only do I get dinged (for 2, 3, 4 bucks) at the ATM, I also get dinged an extra buck by my bank if I use an "out-of-network" ATM. All for the privilige of saving them the salary and benefits of another teller they didn't have to hire because I'm using the ATM. But Congress won't regulate that because they like to whore themselves out to the highest bidder, and C*** can pay them a lot more than I can.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Even if the company ultimately winds up refunding or rescinding your money, they still gain some benefit from holding onto your cash. Insufficient cash flow is one of the most important reasons for business failure, but they can effectively gain cash flow by making billing instant and refunds drag on for weeks or months. So your cash becomes their capital.
I had a dispute with TWA (now defunct airline) one time -- due to their error, I was billed twice for a ticket. It took months for them to refund my $800. They can take your money instantly, but they can only return it after months of hassle, phone-tag, "I don't have the authority" etc.
Ironic, that TWA was once the coolest airline (founded by Howard Hughes, and once had the best service). It was unable to adapt to deregulation. Whether their stealth cashflow was a cause or an effect of their weakness is left to the reader to decide.
As a European I always find it amazing how Americans put up with forced surcharges, tips, service fees etc.
Surely the price of the goods/service should be the one on the label, not what it says on
the label + tax + tip etc.
Do you think a Doctor should fleece the well-off just a little bit in order to provide the neccessary treatment for those who can't afford it? (I know nothing about your situation)
What if you knew that $103 dollars would help subsidize treatment for a sick child, who could easily be cured, but the mother can't afford the reasonably priced treatment? (Yes, that would violate some confidentiality)
Doctor's run a buisness and charge on a sliding scale. They have to find away to take of themselves, the hospital, their clients and the best interests of the community.
"I used to feel sorry for docs in general for getting squeezed by insurance companies (malpractice insurance, HMO contracts, etc.) until I saw that."
Here's my question to you - what should the doctors do? Malpractice insulrance, etc. are costing them more than they can honestly earn. They've been through nearly a decade of schooling (which costs hundred of thousands of dollars), and many have been doing their job for 30 years by this point. What is their alternative? Should they quit and get computer science degrees? It's either overcharge insurance companies to recoup costs, or find a new line of work.
While I am certainly averse to dishonesty, I can understand its necessity in some cases.
GL
It has been pointed out that:
... beat them naked with wet noodles and toilet paper until they finally start treating us like humans rather than cattle to be harvested one surcharge at a time.
-Everyone has experienced this first hand across many industries.
-Sometimes the extra surcharges are mandated by law.
How can we stop ourselves from being "nickel-and-dimed to death" by the industries which we pay for? Tell the politicians to get out of bed with the executives, line them all up against the wall and
+++ATHZ 99:5:80
If you have that much friction with your doctor, then change doctors. :)
I've just read down this thread, and let me assure you -- this person has already had trouble with a string of different medical providers. (You've just been added to the list -- "She did it for the money and you know it" being an accusation that you were lying, right?)
We're not hearing anything like a full, honest story on this one. I'd place money that the supposed apology by the doctor involved was nothing like what we're reading, to start with. What happened was, the doctor brushed this person off when he started ranting about the way things got categorized on the HMO bill. This person has no idea of the context and doesn't want to hear you try to explain.
Pretty sad, really. Sort of reminds me of my college days working in a retail bookstore; we had customers like this all the day long.
"Fundamentalism" isn't about divine morality. It's about human authority.
> One day everyone who sells on the web will work out that shipping should be free and absorbed into the cost of running the business. Do businesses bill you for the electricity they used in preparing your order?
Well, yes, they do, they just don't itemize it. How do you think they determine prices? Any business that doesn't consider sunk and processing costs when setting prices quickly goes out of business. But more to the point, why shouldn't you pay for the electricity they used preparing your order?
Virg
Now if only the state has the backbone to enforce the law, all will be well.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
no one can ever explain why i was dropped from the database, my employer always pays the insurance company on time (i've checked). I've never died or cancelled the coverage, i'm just randomly dropped, for a day, when they get a bill. sometimes.
... and read this month's AdBusters. They've been trying to *buy* ad time on TV and radio for more than a decade and they are refused. One simple way to fight the fact that everyone just sits around and takes it is to at least get the memes out there that you don't have to be a product, that you're more than the sum of your purchases, that corporations have been very successful in controlling your life and it's time to do something about it.
MediaCarta.org
This is perhaps slightly off-topic, but it's really the same idea, that these companies can rip you off and there's very little you can do about it. There's a guy in another comment that does not have a personal phone because he got sick of getting screwed over and lied to. There isn't any competitor for him to go to because all the freaking corporations do the same crap! I experience this all the time. There are a lot of messages in here about how mega corp screwed people over and there isn't a whole lot anyone can do about it.
I propose to fight back, and getting some subvertisements on the air are a really good start, and it has lots of serious implications about personal rights versus corporate rights. Check it out.
... corruption.
It happens to reminds me of a trip I took to Lebanon a couple years ago. Very seldom would anyone get back the correct change after purchasing an item. The change would usually be the price after they had "rounded" the price up (never down) to the nearest equivalent dime or quarter. The "rounded" portions would be pocketed at the end of the day. This form of corruption was everywhere.
We once decided to calculate how much a single grocery store would skim from their customers using this method. 1000 skims a day @ 10 cents each makes $100 (US) a day. Over the course of a year, $36,500. And that was a conservative estimate.
iaamoac
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
My credit is top notch. Everyone that I owe money to gets paid. But I don't pay them just because they say I owe them money.
A good example happened a couple years ago: My wife had a surgery. We met our out of pocket maximum that year. Two years later we get a bill saying that we owe them $3000. They try a couple times to get us to pay and have us deal with the insurance company to get reimbursed. I make it quite clear that its not my problem that they can't fill out my insurer's forms (they had received some payment from this insurer).
I've run into this several times. Their standard tactic is to get money when they can, then make you do the work of figuring out how much you have. I just don't extend credit to doctors or hospitals, the insurance mess is just as much their fault as the insurance companies.
In the end, its the person holding the disputed money that has the leverage to make the other party do paperwork. I certainly don't mean this as a stalling tactic, if I know I owe someone money, I pay them what I know I owe them.
t
There is a pretty good rule that says don't attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence, but on the other hand I wonder how companies displaying such staggering levels of incompetence can stay afloat. If, conveniently, the incompetence works in their favor, I guess it's shareholder gold.
Is the allusion in your .sig intentional?
Virg
I think the explanation is a combination of market incentives for complex price and fee structures and corporate unwillingness to work hard to save consumers money.
First, my hypothesis on why certain types of bills are so hard to decipher: in industries with intense competition (long distance, cell phone, credit cards), a complex pricing structure reduces the amount of head-to-head competition you have to face, essentially increasing your monopoly power (I mean that in the technical economic sense of the word) and allowing you to extract more profit from consumers. Think of it this way: If AT&T cost 10 cents/min. flat, and MCI cost 5 cents/min. flat, with no other fees, how many people would continue to use AT&T? But complex pricing structures make it near impossible for consumers to make a head-to-head comparison based on price alone, thus decreasing the effective competition on price in the market.
Complexity in pricing/fee structures inevitably leads to billing errors and/or customer misunderstandings about fees. You can probably design more error-proof billing systems, but the industries won't do that unless it's in their economic benefit to do so: here, as the article points out, is a balance between extra revenue made from those who never complain and extra cost from those who call customer service. As complaints increase, the economic incentive to fix billing, or even simplify it, will increase. But corporations won't take active steps out of the goodness of their hearts to reduce billing errors that benefit them.
So, no conspiracy here, but just a couple of economic incentives interacting.
Imposing Libertarian views on everyone online since 1992.
The law says that if they factor a rebate into the advertised price, they have to give you the rebate money at the cash register. Essentially it outlaws the practice of factoring in mail-in rebates in advertised prices. More states need to follow their lead.
Once upon a time, I ran a small cellular phone company.
At first, life was grand. Charge a rate plus sales tax.
then the state wanted an excise tax
then the county wanted an excise tax
then 15 different cities levied 15 different taxes
then the FCC wanted money to put internet connectivity in schools
then i had to upgrade my network for 911 location
then i had to provide means for the police to conduct surveillance (at my expense)
then townships & cities want $60,000/yr in school taxes for cellphone towers
Oh and when I need to but in a new a/c & electrical system to cool the computers that I need to track all of this gov't crap, I have to pay the township for construction permits and pay more property taxes.
If you think it sucks to be a consumer, try running a business.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
I don't know about the rest of you, but why put so much emphasis on the $2 service fees? Why not go after the bigger costs in life - mainly rent/mortgage? You can escape the cost of your cell phone, cable, and other communication services, but you really can't escape the cost of living somewhere. I'm no economist, but isn't that partially where a lot of the high cost of services elsewhere come from?
One reason the Fed has been steadily producing more money is because the US economy (plus foreign US dollar buyers) has been steadily expanding over time. Do you think we have the same number of dollars in circulation now as we had in 1950? As long as they don't exceed this growth rate it isn't causing inflation.
If they did stop producing dollars then you'd see the value of a dollar on the currency markets increase (assuming a growing economy) and our exports would become more expensive for foreign buyers. That isn't a good thing for US manufacturers (if there are any left of course).
Adding extra costs hidden behind the advertised cost is real inflation. Those costs directly affect the cost of living.
Also, if you are wondering why prices aren't dropping with the (ab)use of cheap overseas labor then one thing you need to look at are the compensation packages our nation's business executives have been giving themselves (i.e. Tyco, GE).
Lastly, you said "profits are constrained by competition". I wish that was always true. Our nation's anti-trust laws are proof that companies will sometimes act in collusion to avoid the pains of competition to profit from a cozy agreement instead. Even organized crime knows that fighting is bad for business.
all those "little things" are called overhead.
Personally, I dont care what the Doctors/ staff make off of me. If it is a fair and reasonable price, it is worth the service. Big insurance sits in the middle of all financial transactions, takes what they want, and pay what they want.
I move every 3 months with my job. Just landed in LA, and the utilities here are doing their best to f&*k me up the @$$. For basic cable in my building (which is provided by a satellite, and therefore has no cable broadband), I pay a reasonble $13 a month. And a $40 connection fee.
For broadband, I needed to get DSL. No deals for me, because I'm only here for 3 months. So I'm paying $50 a month for DSL, plus $100 for the equipment, plus a $50 connection charge, or some such bullshit.
If I want DSL, I need to have phone service (though I only use my cell). That's a reasonble $6 a month. Plus a $30 connection fee.
In all, for my 3 month stint, connection fees have ended up doubling the price of everything. WTF? I'll even be lenient on the cable company, because at least they had to send a guy to make sure it worked. All SBC had to do was flick a switch for my phone and DSL.
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem
According to them they are not responsible for the actual products they sell. Boy, long way we've come since store owners actually stood behind the products they sold.
From their FAQ:
"What about restocking fees? How much? When? Why?
There is a restocking fee of 15% on all returns for refund, unless waived by our Customer Support Agent. Newegg is not responsible for manufacturer defects. We are not manufacturers. We are willing to replace a defective item. If a refund is requested instead of a replacement we will charge a 15% restocking fee. Why? Claiming "defective" is the easy way out of a restocking fee just because you don't want the item. If it's defective we will replace it (rma type repair)."
Total horsecrap that they make you a deviant just for buying from them. That whole thing at the end where they say you would just be "claiming" defective is fucking bullshit. You should be able to return a defective product for a return from anywhere. If its defective then you should be able to escape the sales contract completely. Newegg tacking on a 15% fee is beyond wrong. I guarantee they make a mint screwing customers like that.
So if your buying from newegg.com be warned. If you realize that the product you bought is not only defective but subpar in general be prepared to bend over. I dont support them anymore and neither should you. It's bad enough being nailed for return shipping on a defective product, read the policies carefully so stores like Newegg don't rape you on restocking fees as well.
If you wanna get rich, you know that payback is a bitch
The law should at least require that taxes and government fees are itemized separately and identified as such. Many bills I receive do not separately itemize government manadated fees from those billed by the company.
Beyond that I wish that billed services were mandated by law to charge a monthly or per unit rate inclusive of all fees. It is absolutely impossible to shop for a lot of services because of additional, non-quoted fees. Electricity is a prime example here in my province, Alberta. There is no way to directly compare the prices of one company to another.
Part of the problem in the U.S. is that local and state authorities have taxation powers. In Canada that is not the case as most provinces restrict municipal taxing authority to property and school taxes only. Not that it has much effect, we still get taxed up the ass here by the provincal and federal governments.
is corporate whistleblowers. I am sure that before the smoking industry was caught no one would have believed that they were deliberately marketing to children. I think it is naive to assume that because it is a large corporation that it cannot be involved in conspiracy. It would be nice if someone on the inside were to reveal documentation of corporate misdeeds.
I would like to salute the ashes of american flags, and all the fallen leaves filling up shopping bags.
Inflation is when the government increases the amount of currency in circulation. When prices in general rise, it's a result of inflation, not inflation itself.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
From the article:
"In the end, the idea of a scheme to bilk millions of people by tiny amounts sounds preposterous, even silly. After all, wasn't that the villain's master plan in "Superman III"?"
Tiny amounts multiplied by millions of customers add up very, very quickly. What's $5 time 3 million customers times 12 months minus $7 times 100,000 customers who complain times 12 months? So, yes it makes very good economic sense, when you can get away with it. Obviously, if the cost of handlling complaints reaches the profit made by the fees, it's time to think of something else.
I guess being first-post comes with some benefits, but really people, an off-topic rant by someone who clearly has issues w/ their doctor due to lack of comprehension of the healthcare system should be modded sad...
that makes a business out of it. http://www.resellerratings.com/seller2870.html They definitely count on people not being able to tell what they're getting, and even if the switch is discovered, they charge a 'restocking' fee. Pretty sick.
I was five minutes from buying memory from these clowns when I discovered that site. It boggles my mind that they're still in business, but I check back every couple of weeks to see what new colourful language is being used ("It's like two people running a business out of their bedroom or something.").
Haida Manga
Which brings me to a question. Cellphones nowadays can send email, text messages, or hell, even play doom in some cases.
How hard would it be to put a feature in a cellphone when you define your "free" calling period (by hours, or day of week), start and end periods. The cellphone could then log minutes in your "free" (as in included in evening/weekend plan) time, as well as during your pay-by-the-minute time. Perhaps it could even log when calls occurred depending on memory limits (which if the cellphone can load games, should hold a monthly log)
Seriously, I'd pay an extra $50 or more for a cellphone that has that feature, and screw the games.
Another VP had as his yearly goal a target for revenue growth. Subscribers were very sensitive to the rates for the service, because it was very expensive, so he knew he couldn't just raise the hourly rate. So he sat down with some spreadsheets and crunched numbers, and noticed that they had two groups of subscribers. The ones who used the service constantly and ran up huge monthly bills, and those who used it occasionally and often had a zero balance at the end of a given month.
He instituted a new policy where a new minimum charge was added to the subscriber agreement, something like $2 or $4, but was only charged if you didn't already spend at least that much in hourly charges. As a result, this new fee would have no effect on the big-time users of the service, who naturally would be the most vocal users.
But there were thousands of users who fit in this low-usage camp, so once instituted, this new fee resulted in a couple million extra dollars a month rolling in. And with no extra work on the company's part, it was like free money! A month after insituting this fee, they had gotten like maybe a dozen complaints.
Needless to say the VP who made this decision got his million dollar year-end bonus, and everyone was happy. Except the few subscribers who paid attention to their bills.
I think this is where most of these junk fees come from. Executives who have little else to do than to play with a spreadsheet all day, play with numbers on end until they come up with some little slice of their user base that they can charge an extra fee to that is unlikely to complain, but will still affect the bottom line.
But as my story points out, this is not a new thing. Its been going on for decades or more. A couple of years ago I noticed AT&T and the other long distance services instituting a minimum monthly charge as part of their standard rate plans, and I thought back to that VP at CompuServe.
The worst practice I've come across is double billing. I got hit with this one around February and March, as the power was deregulated. Around that time, the price of electricity was also capped after some people had a very hard time with soaring electrical bills.
The cap goes into action, and I get a bill that is about double what I expect. When I look over it, I realize that I've been billed twice for the same electricity. I complain about it, and I'm told that it was a mistake because of the cap, and that it will be credited to my next bill.
The next bill comes, and the charge is still there, and earning interest. I'm now at the point of having to manually calculate my bills (partially because when the cap went into effect, the utilities company took about three months to adjust their billing system), complaining every couple of months, and even writing the occasional letter regarding these errors.
And then, in October, I get a notice that because of my debit, I have to pay what I owe ASAP or they will require a deposit. Let's just say I didn't take this well. After calming down, I wrote them a polite letter where I pointed out that you cannot bill somebody twice for the same electricity, enclosed a copy of the bill where the mistake first appeared, and requested a meeting within two days.
The bill was corrected the next day, and both the double billing and the interest it had accrued were removed. I swear, though, if they had charged me a deposit fee, I would have gone to my lawyer and sued their asses. Nobody screws around with me like that and gets away with it.
Robert B. Marks
Author, Demonsbane in Diablo Archive
Sort of like the disagreement the bankrupcy court had with lawyers in the MCI bankruptcy case.
.. the lawyers were billing for the time they took filling out the bill.
They were charging an arm and a leg (I take it) for the billing.
Namely
Funny you should mention rebates. Over the summer I bought a laptop and a WiFi card for my wife. The laptop had a $100 rebate. That came promptly. The WiFi card had a $10 rebate. That just came, and after I called them a couple times.
I've experienced this sort of thing before. The small rebates only come after a call or two, the big ones are prompt.
My theory is for significant rebates people don't forget them, so it is easier for the business to just mail them out. However, for smaller rebates more people forget, or don't think it is worth the bother to follow up. So the company can rely on this as profit.
If anyone can ding you with a hidden or nasty service fee, it's a bank. Not only that, but if you really piss them off, they can kill your credit, possibly mess with money in your account already, and sick their hugely pricey lawyers on you.
In my case, my account was supposed to be $3 min with a $12 maximum for debit charges, etc. One day I checked and noticed odd billings in the area of $50 or so. Checked into it and found that the account I had was actually $12 maximum up to 50 debit transactions or something stupid, and $0.65 after that.
Being that I debit a lot, $0.65 x 50+ tranactions or so over my limit is a rather large amount of money in service fees. I've since switched to "no fees with an >$1000 balance," but I'm still planning on switching my account over once I find a better bank. Oh, and yes, they did the same thing to my sister. FYI, the banks is CIBC.
Next, take my sister's other run-in... mechanics. She had recently gotten her car worked on, when it broke down about 3h from home while she was looking to move for work. Automotive club had it towed to nearest mechanic: GM Goodwrench. GM quoted her a rather steep fixing fee, citing that several parts were corroded or in very bad repair.
She had this forwarded to my mother (a good billkeeper) who checked it and found that these parts had just been replaced in the earlier job.
A call to the GM shop later, and both the mechanic and shop manager claimed with certainty that the parts did need replacing and it was necessary. Upon faxing them the previous invoice for parts/labour, they changed their tune, but still charged a jacked-up service rate.
All that was really wrong was a small distributor problem or something similar, but it costs several hundred dollars. I had mine done for much less than this, less than half.
Rules for mechanics (unless you know yours well):
a) Always ask for the original (supposedly worn) parts back
b) If you can, watch what is being done. It's simple for a mechanic to give you a different worn part than the good one that actually came off your car
c) If your new parts have engraved serial #'s, record them... that helps if you have problems in (a) and (b)
You could say the phone company is giving me something for the added $.15/month occasionally compounded onto my bill but if it is a far suburb I haven't called in my 20 years in the area, it isn't buying me anything.
Interestingly enough, it looks to me like my local calling area is expanding at about the rate of inflation. Coincidence?
They are trying to slip an extra few bucks in each bill. These are charges for nothing, oh wait thats FRAUD. Time Warner Cable does this monthly, so does every phone company I ever heard of and most other utilities.
Professional Politicians are not the solution, they ARE the problem.
Do you have a link to that quote about mcguinty, I recall reading it somewhere.
-Reid
I had my Windows XP system totally die the other day so I called a local computer repair shop to fix it. The guy comes over, opens the case and plugs something he called a "power connector" back into a thing called a "hard drive"? Apparently, it had fallen out when I moved the computer from the living room into my office. It took him 2 minutes to fix the dang thing and get it up and running again.
Next week, I get the bill. $100 !?! It only took him two minutes to fix it! He reminds me of that college kid my company hired to program our stock system. They paid that kid nearly $45,000 a year and all he does is type for eight hours a day, anyone can do that!
Just my $100 worth.
While not really bill related, it has to do with companies screwing you and not really caring at all, and some hidden costs because of this from other organizations.
At one time many years ago, when I had a car, it was insured with Progressive. Each month a few days before the bill was due, I would call into their phone payment system with a bill in hand and my credit card to make a payment. When you call in, they ask you to punch in your account number, they repeat it back, then begin to process your card. It is a live transaction, with immediate effects on your balance once payment is authorized. After authorization they give you a short number to keep in hand as your payment authorization.
15 days later I recieved my bill on it's usual time, and proceeded to ignore it, since I pay a few days before it is due. When I opened the bill, almost a month after making the last payment, I realized they had sent me a letter of notification that my insurance had been cancelled because I had failed to pay my previous bill. I called them up, and the people behind the phone were unresponsive, saying statements like "There is nothing we can do", "we cannot access that", etc etc.
So for 28 days I was without insurance on my vehicle, and it took Progressive 18 of those days to send me notification that I had lapsed. The DMV didn't notice though, and promptly billed me $8 a day, which ended up being 30 days, because it took me a day or so to find quotes. (That's $240)
Progressive ended up billing me a minor cancellation fee, which I told them to shove up their collective arse, and I guess they did, noticing the circumstances. They also failed to do anything about the DMV bill.
One more minor hidden cost was restarting a new policy, since I had a lapse of insurance for 30 days, I couldn't get an insurance discount when you have insurance for more than 6 months, which I had to pay for until I could get a new policy 6 months later.
btw: Progressive never denied that they had recieved payment when I gave them the authorization number, they just conveniently forgot about it.
I am currently a Progressive customer because I don't have a (financial) choice, and I'm dreading every month's bill.
Just stopping by to say that what you have is a bright solution for dealing with those bastards. Way to go!
quiquid id est, timeo puellas et oscula dantes.
The Government (Australia) likes to play some of these kinds of tricks too. They don't want to be known for increasing taxes, so we get things like 'stamp duty' and 'special levies' instead. Apparently if you don't call it a tax its not a tax so there's no problem with it.
To top it off, they now charge tax (our 10% Goods and Services Tax) on some of these not-a-tax taxes. They only get away with it because they know we're stupid enought to re-elect them anyway.
Phone: (215) 665-1700
Fax: (215) 981-7790
I was put on hold for about 4 minutes, then told I was being given a full credit for the disputed amount. I was actually given an additional credit for six months of service, and when I ended up moving before the end of that six months, I got a real refund check for the balance.
You've got to be quite threatening to get through to customer service call center attendants these days.
In the same month, my girlfriend and I were both charged a fee for using directory assistance on our cell phones. Her twice, and I once. The problem is, I know for a fact, neither of us has EVER used directory assistance on our cell phones.
...
Krick
1) I know it costs money and I can get the numbers free from my phone book or the internet. i.e. I'm cheap.
2) Since I never use it, I don't even know what the number for directory assistance is on my cell phone? Is it 555-1212, 411, something else?
Anyway, after going round and round for about a hour on the phone with several AT&T Wireless customer service reps and their manager, they concluded: "We know the number was dialed from you phone so someone must have used your phone without your knowledge." And they refused to credit my account. My phone is almost always in the front pocket of my pants (the radiation keeps my testicles warm) and is never in a place where someone could just pick it up and use it.
The charge was only $1.40 or something like that but it was the principle of the whole thing. After my girlfriend got charged for two calls that month, I began to wonder what would happen if they "accidentally" billed each of their customers for a directory assistance call one month. It would probably equal millions of dollars. Thieving bastards!
Ok, this may not be a scam, but it sure seems fishy to me, and it ticked me off at the time because it involved my kids. For some reason, my son loves D*n*y's restaurant. He's been doing good in school, so we decided to treat him one afternoon. We ordered, ate, and everything was fine, then we moved to dessert. He and my other son opened up their kids' menus and picked what they wanted. $1.79 each, not bad. Oddly, though, when I got the bill it showed $3.19 for their desserts. Turned out that they have "adult" versions of the desserts with the *exact same name*, but costing $1.40 more.
I took it up with the waitress, saying we wanted the kids version (I mean, you think she would have noticed that they're children), and she gave me a rehearsed blank look and said, "Oh, well, you didn't say that." Of course, I argued that the names are exactly the same in the menus(there's nothing in the kids menu that even hints that there is an "Ore* Bl*nd*r Bl*st*r" for adults). She ultimately changed the bill, but it ticked me off. I guess it was my fault for not researching all the menus at hand to find differently priced duplicates. *rolls eyes*
With so many D*n*y's restaurants in the US, how many times does this happen per day? I guess the moral is, if the theives can find a way to cheat you, they will do it, even in front of your kids.
last time i checked, NYC's small claims court has an award cap of $3,000, and you do not need a lawyer. if you can figure out how to post a reply on /., you can probably fill out the small claims application yourself.
No, they do that because there is a shitload of dishonest video card and processor buyers who buy a product, get it home, find out that it doesn't overclock well, and send it back demanding a refund.
You can return a defective product for a return, with no problems. In fact, I've got an opto-write DVD-RW in RMA right now with them.
Now, the lack of return shipping is a bit of a bummer, but like they say, wal-mart doesn't pay for your gas when you go to return an item.
Sounds like a good business policy to me.
Steven Vallarian
I patented screwing your mom. But it got revoked for "prior art."
I converted $150 worth of sprint points to travel anytime anywhere value but to collect on it you have to go thru the Valley Travel Group.
Now Its a long wait on teh phone to make a reservation, even for a car rental. But I did that when I was in California visiting so friends.
Ok Got my reservation and after hopping the hotel to LAX the nightmare began. Turned out the car rental was a smal operation that their shuttle was by only by call. No regular shuttle to and from LAX.
When I got to teh rental place, finaly I was not impressed with the office. But they claimed they didn't know me, and knew nothing about sprint travel stuff. They even said they didn't have the minivan this whole thing was about. Got on teh phone to sprint/valley travel again waiting forever. OK so they didn't make any reservation but only called the car rental to see if they had a minivan. Interestingly enough they somehow came up with one but wanted more than the deal I had agreed to...... A Clear Bait and Switch.
So I said NO, take me back to the airport. They Said NO, leaving me stranded. So I called Sprint/Valley Travel back again waiting forever and they said just get what ever I decided to get and send them the receipts..... Duh... Like why wasn't that simple to begin with?
But it doesn't end, When I finally get back to atlanta I misplaced the paperwork I needed for the addrsss and redemption code. finally after several months I found it but not after trying to contact then by phone and email. Email also was such thet it became clear they were injecting problems where ever they could.
Armed with the information I sent the paper work off onlyu to get it back a week later with a not deliverable stamp. Realizing then That I have used the address on the redemption code paper, I then sent it to the address I got in email.
After the first car rental bait and switch problem , I did find a car from Thrifty (not to far a walk from the CON shop) open 24/7... and great service. But I several days later needed another car just for a day (the first car- nobody had minivans at that time - I had for 2 days.)
So I sent both receipts in --- They paid me back for the second car (which I never went thru them for) - but the first car was for 2 day and almost twice as much --- The one I had gone thru them for.... They did not send me a check for that one.
But they did include a questionair regarding service...
I made a long distance call to try and streighten it out and they offered to connect me to a fucking answering machine claiming the person I needed wasn't at their desk. I hung up and called the next day and they connected me to the accounting department....a fucking answering machine.
They are screwing me out of about $70 -- plus and additional $40 remaining of the $150 spring points I had converted to travel anytime anywhere value.
There is no doubt in my mind that they have intentionally made all communications difficult and problematic.
You see, they already got the money from sprint andt he program ends at the end of this year. Where they get to keep what ever is left over.
> If you lend someone else your car, do you charge them for insurance?
If the person you lent the car to crashes it, do you expect them to pay for the damage? Do you loan your car to anyone who walks in and asks?
Your comparison isn't valid. It's completely reasonable for them to charge you for coverage for a commercial rental, because unlike your example there's no pre-existing expectation that you'll reimburse them for loss.
Virg
only understand the technobabble, not yiddish.
I get this from the phone company, who have the one of worst institutions in the US. There was a weird charge of $6 added to my phone bill for USBI misc charges. I called the for-questions 800 number and I get this woman who tells me that because of the 'do not call' list, they are adding this charge to my phone bill to compensate for their loss of revenue from not being able to telemarket. I couldn't even get her to tell me who she represented. When I asked, she said " We got fined $78,000 for violating the 'do not call' list, "Don't you think it's fair that I should be able to raise our rates to cover this?".
I was stunned. After speaking to four other people in the telephone billing system, I talked to one person who said now almost anyone can add random charges to your phone bill and if you don't pay, you'll lose your service. He said that one company was sending pop-up ads that started automatic collection of long-distance charges if you didn't click it off within about 15 seconds, even if it was under your browser display. This was a phone company representative! He said that the only way to ensure that you wouldn't get socked with random charges was to quote 'never lift your phone off the hook' unquote.
Insane. What can you do?
Its called Payroll Withholding.
If you look on your paycheck, you will see some of it, but what you don't know is that you are only looking at half of the withholding collected. Your employer "matches" the amount that is reported on you payroll slip, but just like the S&H this is really paid by you because it is money that your employer could be paying you!
Think of it this way. When you are hired, your employer's accountants figure that you cost $80/hr. You of course are only being paid $50/hr. You pay $15 in withholding from your $50 paycheck (netting $35), so your employer sees you like this:
$50 wage + $15 withholding(by employer) + $15 overhead= $80 cost of employee.
(The $15 overhead is for insurance, pension, unemployment, etc.)
The employer is willing to hire you for that $80/hr, so if he weren't paying that $15 match, he would have been willing to pay you $65/hr.
This was done intentionally when the income tax was started, because FDR knew that people would get upset if they saw the true cost of the tax on their pay stubs. Now everybody is used to thinking in terms of the NET amount on their check, not even the Gross amount shown, so they certanly don't think about what they aren't shown.
This is also why when you are self-employed you have to pay "self-employment" taxes; they are really just the "employer match" half that you don't see as an employee.
McFly777
- - -
"What do people mean when they say the computer went down on them?" -Marilyn Pittman
Most likely we are witnessing a creeping civilization-wide entropy brought about by the widespread use of MS Windows, and crummy software in general. It will only get worse as humans and machines alike are dragged into a morass of stupidity from which we will never escape, reaching climax where humanity is no longer smart enough to program machines, and machines are programming themselves with very buggy software. And then there's the worms and trojans.
Hey, sure, Doctors have "greater than seven years of training." Well, guess what, so do all of the other professions that afford an individual the title "Doctor" and most of them pay crap even though they cost every single penny as much to acquire. So yes, we're all thankful that Doctors are there to save our sorry butts, but please respect those who are at just as highly trained, but don't charge usurious rates for their services.
Let's forget about these fake stealth fees for a moment and take a look at banking, grocery, cell phone, and other billing errors. For those of you who thinks these charges by are mistakes, I propose a poll: How many of you actually had a mistake in YOUR favor? hmmmm
LS
There is a fine line between being a cultivated citizen and being someone else's crop. - A. J. Patrick Liszkie
Besides that, I think the parent is probably correct that the fee was for reading the results of the EKG, not explaining it to you.
"I think the U.N. is going to find that the blame lies with all the Sudanese rap music that glamorizes genocide."
Actually I'm a bit amused by his reaction. I've dealt with customers on the phone and face to face, and I've seen many a time were the customer did something they're not suppose to and damaged (destroyed) the product. The honest ones admit this, and take their lumps. the less than pull a hissy fit like the parent poster, and in general make life unbearable for everyone. Is it any wonder that customer service is seen as a bottom of the barrel job. It's like signing up to be abused.
I noticed on my last telephone bill they stopped charging for touch tone. That was a boondoggle. If you didn't have touch tone they had to have special hardware to convert pulse dialing to touch tones.
Well that's why I compare item stickers with price. And as far as the
"who's a thief" and "who's a customer" I've worked retail and none of
the thieves wear a sign saying "I'm a thief". I find it safer to hope
for the best (a customer) and expect the worst (a thief) and keep my
mouth shut until I can prove otherwise.
Now when challenged, the fee usually goes away. I suspect that wouldn't happen if my balance with them were lower.
No reason to believe my bank is an exception here (it's a major bank).
So my experience leads me to believe that yes, banks across the country are getting away with routinely imposing nonsense fees on their customers who don't know they can object or don't have the power to object. Yes, it wouldn't be surprising at all if this ran into hundreds of millions of dollars. And yes, this is stealth theft.
And yes, as Consumers Union notes, this is also done by credit card companies, insurance companies, car rental, video rental, phone, cable, store credit cards, the list goes on and on. It's a ripoff of massive proportions stolen a few dollars at a time.
Was it Congress or the courts?
Either way, states' rights doesn't mean the federal government has no rights; the states are reservered the non-enumerated powers under the Tenth Amendment.
If this was overturned on the basis of interstate commerce, that is a clear, constitutional domain of the fed.
You know she just wrote in your permanent file that you're a "problem patient"
;-)
Try to get an appointment now!
Very nice place, it had to be said. The room - well, suite - I was staying in was the size of my flat back home.
The problems came when it was time to check out. Although Warners were paying the basic expenses, additional ones (phone calls, room service, etc) were expected to be covered by us.
Now, I hadn't touched the minibar (there was a convenience store just down the street for booze and snacks), the premium cable had been left alone because Warners had taken me out every night, I had no girlfriend (hey, I'm a /. reader!) so there hadn't been any phone calls, I hadn't made any calls for room service, I hadn't connected my laptop to the internet, I hadn't thrown the TV out of the window or taken a big shit in the middle of the living room requiring special cleaning... hell, I even left a decent tip.
Go to reception to check out? I'm handed a bill for $95 dollars of assorted 'additional services'.
Needless to say, I went ballistic and all the charges magically vanished. But it was a lesson in how places like that operate. They obviously assume that guests have all their expenses met by somebody else, so couldn't care less if a wodge of charges are added to the bill.
Now, I know that if I'd presented those expenses to *my* employer expecting them to be paid, they would have laughed in my face and told me to fuck off...
You must think in Russian.
I'm rather not happy with Newegg. I purchased some computer parts from them (I think it was a motherboard and video card). Their website messed up and ordered twice what I needed.
I only found out about this because I received two emails for different orders. I called them up to cancel. They told me I couldn't cancel with them and I would have to call shipping. I called them there. They said I couldn't cancel the order either but I could refuse the package and that after they received the refused package, THEN they would credit my order. I had to literally pry package tracking numbers out of them and then find out what item each tracking number stood for, and which order it went with so I could cancel one entire order.
After I refused one order, they still didn't credit me back because they didn't recieve it. They eventually said that UPS delivered it to the wrong address. It took me a month to get my money credited back to me.
Overall, they were very unfriendly about the whole process that started with THEIR website screwing up. I would have ordered more products from them in the future but after that incident, I am not likely to ever again.
"Would you rather have a playstation addicted dork wearing a star wars t-shirt?"
Like, duh. It's not a conspiracy; it's the normal way for business to be performed under undue stresses. It's pure PR. It's the spoonful of sugar to make the medicine go down.
... and there's no way to dry off.
Tuition is capped by law at state universities. What happens? Your "fees" go up until they rival the tuition in time. Textbook prices have climbed as sharply, and who knows what kickbacks are occuring behind the scenes?
I knew an instructional video supplier who understood (and set) the level of his "shipping & handling" to be his profit margin. He did this because the price of the tapes was what the customers compared, not the S&H.
And most recently, as the Big 3 Automakers are finding out, mandating a 5% yearly reduction in price upon their supply chains has only given rise to a veritable blizzard of itemized charges. The charges are being used to support the profit margin while the base price is being eaten alive by unreasonable demands.
Look at your fucking phone bill, fer crissakes! Look at all those itemized charges. You are getting soaked
[You have a stable society when some nut guns down a schoolyard and the law doesn't change.]
FYI, it costs about $200,000 to train a doctor. That's like a median US home price mortgage, but without the house. Show me *just one* other profession requiring this kind of investment...
Well, maybe a fighter pilot, but for that the taxpayers pick up the tab.
Paying back student loans and the incredible price of malpractice insurance are very different things from the view of the doctor and the view of the patient.
"What do you think?" "I think 'What, do you think?!'"
A year or two ago I read a great book "Naked among cannibals", which was an inside story about the Australian banking system. With the reduction in interest rates and increase in competition from other lenders there was a very definite and deliberate move to replace interest margins with fee income. The bank that the author worked at 'pioneered' the range of loan fees in Australia - application fees, duplicate statement fees, break fees, ....
Another trick was to offer deposit accounts with relatively high interest rates. After heavy advertising and signing up customers, the bank would move to a 'new' deposit product (ie just a name change) and then lower the interest rates paid on the old product.
The author noted several times, that the reason the could get away with doing this and still make money is because we let them.
Living in Canada and using eBay once in a while, I am occasionally confronted with the US shipper who only uses UPS. (What is it with Americans and UPS anyways? Is it some kind of cult?)
I ship it regular. At the border, I get charged for 'brokerage', which at the end costs as much as the merchandise itself.
I clear packages myself now, and the whole process is: get customs papers from UPS depot, go to Canada Customs office to get papers stamped and pay whatever (usually sales tax, so it's as if I bought the item here), bring stamped papers back to UPS, get box.
Basically, the customs clearance service amounts to rubber stamping a few forms. For this they can charge 30$+...???
Thieves, plain and simple.
Canada Post just lets parcels fly through, with the occasional 5$ brokerage charge...
Funny you should suggest that. I just got my Notice of Class Action Settlement papers in the mail from Nextel.
They've been charging most everyone an extra $1.55 per line for "Federal Programs Cost Recovery Fee" - which is really just a rate increase disguised as a government-imposed fee. What sucks about it is that all I get out of it is 9 minutes/month for three months. I don't even use all my minutes as is... I bet the lawyers made better than that.
One of the most egregious examples of this is the "destination charge" tacked on to the price of a new car. This was originally because a dealership further away from the factory had to pay much higher shipping fees to get their stock. But then they decided the low-cost-shipping places were getting an unfair advantage, and people were shopping across state lines. So a law was passed making the destination charge the same all over. They could have passed another law requiring it be rolled into MSRP, but those whores in Congress were down on their knees in front of the auto industry again.
You're insane. That's $250 please. See the receptionist on the way out and make an appointment for another session next week...
Household Bank, a major player in the screw-the-poor subprime market, has been caught for this kind of thing. But I've heard stories of even worse.
A friend of mine is a financial planner, and now whistleblower. She's brought several of these sleazy operators into court and won.
A couple of her clients with recent bankruptcies have Household Bank credit cards. They're always having problems with web payments or automatic debits going through, being assessed usurous late fees, and then overlimit fees when the late fees put them over their suddenly-lowered limit. My friend suspects these "problems" are carefully programmed into the system, and has been gathering evidence to support this. So if anyone from Household is reading, we're on to you!
I happen to work on these machines, and I can definitely say that staples, folded checks, and extra slips of paper will not generally stop one of these machines, but the machine will sort it into a bin for manual processing. It cuts the throughput of the high speed equipment a bit, but it means that generally an overworked, underpaid drone will have to destaple the check manually.
Often though, payments are not processed by the company on the stub, but rather they are sent to a lockbox operation, such as a large bank, or a company that specializes in payment processing such as Regulus . Unless you have inside information about the PO box that shows through the window on the return envelope, it is hard to know who actually processes a particular payment.
In general, if you want your payment processed as quickly, accurately, and uneventfully as possible, it is best to bow to the machine's desires. The preprinted postnets on the statements or envelopes will speed your payment quickly through the postal service's high speed sorters, and they win the race to reach the processing floor at the bank or lockbox. White mail and damaged mail gets sorted last, and generally gets processed last when it gets to the bank. The high speed work is always the first priority, outsorts and white mail usually wait.
Folks,
... expect the whore to take your money, forget you, and be headed for the next fucking buck. You should not worry about the new economic morality. Be very happy that you have the standard of life that allows such quality rewards.
You must always pay for what you get. When you pay to get fucked
OldHawk777
Reality is a self-induced hallucination.
Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
Every so often I get a phone call from some AT&T telemarketer wanting me to switch to AT&T. I continuously decline and inform them that I will never, ever use their services. When they ask why I tell them that I still remember what they were like when they were the only game in town and that if they wanted my business then they should have been more customer oriented then. I well remember the piss off attitude they displayed that required me to get two US congress people and the FCC in to fix a minor billing hassle. I was fortunate that my then girlfriend (now wife) was working as a congressional aide and could involve her boss or that my congresswoman (God bless you Bev Byron!) was always an outstanding practitioner of the art of constituent service. But lots of folks didn't have that firepower to bring to bear and got rolled over by THE PHONE COMPANY. Well bleep them. When I had a chance I switched and I will never go back! I'm not surprised to see their still up to their old tricks.
Insurance is one of the major problems, they got ya coming and going.
Medical insurance is astronomical because, well, medical costs are high. Medical costs are high because insurance is astronomical, both for malpractice and for office employees have to have medical insurance.
You pay malpractice for the doctor and labs, comprehensive coverage for every employee (doctor's offices are, in general, small businesses, and there is a reason 7-11 doesn't provide medical coverage), liablity for the drug companies. Simply huge insurance costs at every step in the medical delivery chain.
> She will NOT fleece me again like that...
Yes, she will. Or, your new doctor will. You have no choice in the matter, other than to die for lack of your prescriptions or by forgoing care.
There are all sorts of things that COULD be done to remedy this problem. But, the money at almost every level likes it very much just the way it is.
So, they burned the hippocratic oath and cast the ashes to the four corners. Did you expect different when there is money to be had?
I discovered a few days ago that this very thing has been happening to me for the past year and a half. I'd noticed my cell phone bill slooowly creeping up - however, the creep was entirely under a section named "federal fees".
Turns out that was a lie, and it wasn't taxes going up. I found this out by the surprise letter I got from the lawyers running the class action suit against the phone company.
I cancelled my service the next day (I'd already been about to do it because I never use the phone). They'd pumped me for about $40 extra over that year, and probably every one of their other customers.
you just have to fix it while it's still running ...
For the human body, you can't have "try rebooting the system and see if the application still works"
It should be noted that this isn't entirely accurate.
Your entire withholding is not matched by your employer. Far from it. I believe it's the ~7.5% social security tax that your employer must match. Therefore when you're self employed, you must pay the entire 15% yourself.
All other taxes are paid by the employee alone, and are of no concern to the employer above the employees gross pay plus that social security match.
In each of my last 3 jobs I've had this happen. Each time our company would be on a specific plan/rate and at somepoint the rates would change on the bills and we would get way overbilled to the tune of thousands of dollars.
When I would call up the phone company (ATT mostly) they would say oh, there must be some mistake and they would promptly change it back and credit the amount. Now from my understanding of the the way software is made, especially billing software, there usually aren't random variables or functions programmed in that change options on an account. I mean how does the fixed rate change on an account seemingly randomly. I've had it happen too many times at work as well as at home to smell foul play. My guess was that somewhere high up the programed the system to change rates to random accounts and told their reps that if there was ever a problem just to fix it quickly without a fuss. Or maybe they just have someone doing it manually, but that would be a lot of accounts to be messing with.
There are thousands of companies out there that don't even check some bills over for consistency, especially ones from "reputable" companies like ATT. I hope to hell something like this is proven and these scamming phone companies (and other companies) are given what they deserve.
A distinctive mark, characteristic, or sound indicating identity
Sigh, the moderators strike again. Why is it that so often informative comments from people that have been there and done that are moderated downward while idiot "In the Soviet Union..." or "hot grits" jokes are moderated upward? The process to select moderators is obviously broken.
Whether you like it or not, the reason why doctors can charge so much is because of basic economics. They (the doctors) are in relatively short supply, and the demand for their practice is pretty much non-negotiable; a deathly ill person doesn't have the option of foregoing treatment.
But there are other reasons as well:
It isn't a simple matter of greed. It's a matter of market conditions. If you don't like how much a doctor charges, don't go unless you're sick! Since you can't directly affect the supply of doctors, the best you can do is to affect the demand. If you want to bring down the cost of medicine, keep yourself healthy!
Barring any pre-existing conditions, the average person can stay healthy with a little regular exercise and a good diet. For these people, seeing the doctor once or twice a year is all they need.
The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
Are you sure? Nations Bank paid a nine million dollar settlement for this practice. And it looks like New York and California have banned it.
In the last year, my landlord has given me past due notices three times. In every case, they were wrong - once by more than $850.
In every case, they've blamed the error on a "computer glitch".
My time is worth money. I work as a consultant on the side at a going rate of $50/hour, with a 100 hour minimum.
So, my landlord company has been informed that if they call me again with an invalid debt based on a "computer glitch", I will consider it an acceptance of an offer to do business. After all, fixing bugs is my business, and if you call me with a computer bug, you better be prepared to pay for my time.
I don't do business with dishonest companies, if possible. But inevitably, I'll run across a shady business here or there. Here's how I handle it:
Hope this helps.
The Economist had a great article on tipping, several months ago. ("Gratuitous gratuities"
Aug 24th 2000)
Essentially, tipping is a purely cultural phenomenon that's been proven to have no effect on service. Americans will pay a tip that's roughly the same with good service as with bad.
We americans tip for more things than anything else. The belief for this is that it's some sorta sociological/psychological feature (or depending on how you look at it...defect.) Americans are the most charitable people (on an individual basis) so it appears that they want to carry this charitableness to many transactions (that other countries won't do.) For some people a large tip is a boasting sign of wealth and charity.
(from the article)
"According to Michael Lynn, the Cornell paper's co-author, countries in which people are more extrovert, sociable or neurotic tend to tip more. Tipping relieves anxiety about being served by strangers. And, says Mr Lynn, "in America, where people are outgoing and expressive, tipping is about social approval. If you tip badly, people think less of you. Tipping well is a chance to show off." Icelanders, by contrast, do not usually tip (see chart)--a measure of their introversion and lack of neuroses, no doubt.
While such explanations may be crude, the hard truth seems to be that tipping does not work. It does not benefit the customer. Nor, in the case of restaurants, does it actually incentivise the waiter, or help the restaurant manager to monitor and assess his staff. The cry of stingy tippers that service people should "just be paid a decent wage" may actually make economic sense."
In Soviet Russia, the hot grits hot you!
Just kidding, but I bet the above would be more likely to be moderated upward than the parent that talks about experience dealing with an investigation into one of the causes of stealth inflation. The parent is an ontopic post that mentioned real data so you know it won't generally get moderated upward. In this case, it was moderated downward! What in the hell is wrong with the moderators here? Are they intentionally trying to ruin this site? I've been here daily since Oct 98 (hey, over five years!), and this problem is just getting worse.
I've been shouting from my soapbox for a long time that if we follow the money, we'll find that it all comes back to the insurance industry. The rising costs involved in renting or owning a home or vehicle, practicing or receiving medical care, operating a business, or practically anything else you want to do in our society other than shut the fuck up and break your back for The Man, can be traced back to the insurance industry. The government makes insurance a legal requirement in many situations but fails to regulate the industry or clamp down on the rampant litigation that drives the high prices of insurance. If I were President (or even a Governor) I would saw the insurance industry's legs off. The hard part is making voters understand why this is so necessary.
They actually flip out and kill pirates
"We have got to make Stan understand the importance of voting, because he'll definitely vote for our guy." - South Park
guys you need a massive website with all this shit, possibly outside usa so lawyers cant screw it down.
notgoodenough.org in australia is a good example.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
I swear god will strike all those at the steak! no heaven for those pricks , direct to hell.
How can those people go to bed and screw people like that. They deserve HIV or something coz if you screw 1000000 people, each of those peoples gripe kill yield bad karma to the banker.
Any way, banks do worse, they lend out gold at 1% interest to other banks which then sell it , and use the cash to get 4-5% in foreign interest rates, then force the gold lower and buy it back and make a whopping profit for doing SFA!
Read GATA.ORG , its all their, JP MORGAN is bankrupt, trust me, they are the next enron together with citygroup.
Watch kitco.com and read financialsense.com gold-eagle.com for the truth.
Banks are gona die, and take all your money with it and give you 1cent in the dollar back and the government wont help coz they will say, "well it was law and you should have knew"
Its all a big pyramid scam thats lega, why do you think the US ONE DOLLAR bill has a pyramid on it?
I urge you all take your US$ cash out, put it in canada or EUROs, you would have made 20-40% by now in interest + currency conversions. Nobody wants the US$, watch it fall, watch the graphs, its bye bye american pie in the crapper.
JP MORGAN has cancelled all long cash positions, they have NO FAITH in the US$ either.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
Since when does "handling" in the shipping and handling for a two pound item justify an extra $10 expense?
Dan's Data has a recent short write-up on this (albeit for international shipping), excerpt below:
[quote] The strange phenomenon of Amazingly High International Shipping Rates is something that people who buy gadgets from overseas often encounter.
There are two reasons why dealers may do it.
One: They don't really want overseas orders, but they're tired of getting mail from people who may or may not be credit card scammers, in unlikely nations, asking about shipping fees. So they list some outrageous gold-plated international priority rate, which chases away such people.
Two: They used to offer air mail shipping, but parcels kept disappearing. [/quote]
According to the law, someone who fails to provide you with a product or service that you paid for must correct that (by replacing/repairing the product or (re)doing the service). The buyer must give the salesman the opportunity to fix his mistake (by accepting a (reasonable) replacement or by giving the other party the chance to repair the product or (re)do the service). The contract that you entered into can only be broken if the other party cannot keep up his end of the bargain. Reasons include:
- The salesman cannot replace/repair the product.
- The service cannot be redone to satisfaction.
- The salesman doesn't fix the problem in time (set a hard deadline which is reasonable!).
A defect product or one which has been superceded by a new model shortly after the sale doesn't mean that you should get your money back. At least, not according to law.
she wasn't worried about the EKG evaluation fee, but she was worried about the part where her doctor says "an EKG is ..." it helps to read the post... and whille we are at it, maybe you should re-evaluate the ekg's you have done to make sure you didn't miss anything there also.
> Don't be absurd. You know perfectly well that this is entirely unlike what counterfeiters are doing.
Um, it was exactly my point that making my own "money" is nothing like what counterfeiters do.
> You see? It's not just fraud. The feds wouldn't care about the lie so much if it weren't for the *effects* of it. The effect of counterfeiting - if left unchecked - is to destroy the value of money.
Here's the sentence that reveals armchair economics at its worst. Money in the economy is represented by the term "M1". That number represents the amount of spending power that exists in the country, including the cash in your wallet, your bond portfolio, your bank account and tons of other places that value is held. The amount of physical, printed currency in circulation is a minute percentage of the value of M1, so in realistic terms the amount of printed money is not able to affect the money supply in meaningful ways. Counterfeiters would have to print hundreds or thousands of times more bills than the Treasury to have even the smallest effect on the value of the dollar. It's therefore vanishingly unlikely that the main reason the government pursues counterfeiters is because of deleterious effects on the value of money.
> Let's suppose I own the ball that Barry Bonds hit for his 73rd home run. This thing recently sold for $450,000. Now let's suppose that someone takes this thing and throws it into a giant box of a million baseballs that look *exactly* the same. What's the Bonds ball worth now? Answer: unless you can absolutely, positively, and with 100% certainty identify the Bonds ball, the Bonds ball has just become worthless (well, it's worth no more than any of the million other balls). In other words: it has been devalued.
Firstly, I was discussing knock-offs that I directly identified as knock-offs, so your example does not apply. The correct analogy to my argument is my putting a baseball on the market that I advertise as a Barry Bonds ball mock-up. More to the main point, though, is that while a forgery can indeed reduce the value of an original by confusing the potential market, this argument does not extend to currency, for the reason stated above that currency is a tiny portion of the money supply.
> > this drills an unrepairable hole in the "immoral to create new currency because it devalues currency" theory.
> As you can see, you are quite mistaken.
Nope, I'm still not mistaken, and this is the other part that shows an economic misunderstanding. The government doesn't create money by printing bills, because, as stated above, it wouldn't help. It creates money mostly by issuing bonds, and then spending the resulting income. While this behavior does indeed cause inflation, the tradeoff is lower unemployment, which has a negative relationship with inflation (the Phillips curve describes this relationship - as inflation rises, unemployment falls, and vice versa). Virtually all of fiscal policy is geared toward controlling this balance. The reason why this damages the immorality argument is that is can be argued (and is, at great length) that lower unemployment rates can justify inflation.
Virg
That's interesting..
I think that most of the lesbos I met were this type - the type of girls that will make me say: "what? you're a lesbo??". I didn't get to see the other types.. hmm...
But what's the difference between lipstick and just a plain femme?
And I betcha you can meet many other girls in the dating services, unless you live in a very desolate place.
Slashdot community, please notice: I am looking for a girlfriend.
Nave H. Weiss