Microsoft Develops XP 'Light' for Thailand

GoatJuggler writes with this Bangkok Post report that "Microsoft announced plans to develop a discounted, slightly crippled version of Windows XP for Thailand."

Comments

You mean you can cripple it more?

[Snowspinner]

It's possible to wring even less functionality out of Windows XP?

Revolutionary!

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[Mr Guy]

Sure this one is just a splash screen and a blue screen, used interchangeably.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[pe1rxq]

You forget the teletubby landscape you get between those two....
Or is that the part that is cut out?

Jeroen

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, so they've relabled WindowsME as XP lite then?

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[bad_fx]

Sure this one is just a splash screen and a blue screen, used interchangeably.

...Uhhh... So what're they changing...?

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[ramzak2k]

I would like to get my hands on one of these if it does not include all the applications i dont need - windows messenger , internet explorer, Outlook express. Just the basic UI. I can customize it the way i need. Lesser the functionality, more secure the box will be.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[SIG TR0LL]

So, you mean they will bundle a complete office suite (openoffice.org), web server (apache), image authoring program (gimp) irc client (xchat, bitchx), several web browsers, two desktop environments, and a partridge in a pear tree?

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[Snowspinner]

There's something very sad when comments I write shooting for funny get moderated insightful. =/

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[jay-oh-eee!]

It's funny, people complain about how MS forces you to install everything (IE, Outlook, etc) and call in "anti-competitive" and when they offer it somewhere with these things stripped out it's called "crippled". There's no winning the article poster or OP, it seems.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[Anonymous Coward]

I would like to get my hands on one of these if it does not include all the applications i dont need - windows messenger , internet explorer, Outlook express. Just the basic UI. I can customize it the way i need. Lesser the functionality, more secure the box will be.

It sounds like you want windows XP embedded. For the embedded market, MS lets you pick & choose which parts of the OS you want.

Strangely enough, MS also says that this is completely impossible for the regular version, and that IE cannot be separated from the OS.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[dorsey]

You're not serious, right? Just because they're forcing a different option doesn't mean that they aren't still forcing the choice.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[Pharmboy]

Actually, I am guessing the "crippled" comment was more of a troll for the original author. Its a sure way to get comments, but then again, thats not a problem on /.

I agree with the other posts, I wouldn't call this crippled if it runs the apps, I would call it streamlined. I would be interested in a copy, if they "crippled" out the media players and such. Im sure it still has IE tho, since they wont let you use windowsupdate with Firebird.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[Pharmboy]

There's something very sad when comments I write shooting for funny get moderated insightful. =/

No, when you shoot for funny, and get insightful, thats ironic.

When you shoot for insightful, and get modded as funny, THAT is sad.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[jay-oh-eee!]

Im sure it still has IE tho, since they wont let you use windowsupdate with Firebird.

:) true, i tried it too. But I think the firebird would have to support embedded COM objects as well because the windows update site uses a COM control.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[jay-oh-eee!]

You're not serious, right? Just because they're forcing a different option doesn't mean that they aren't still forcing the choice.

I'm serious exactly because they're not "enforcing a different option", they're enforcing nothing -- they're taking stuff out, not replacing it with something else.

Since WMP, for example, isn't replace with WMP-lite.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[de Selby]

I was thinking the exact same thing. I spend a lot of time trying to get rid of the crap that comes with XP (ex: http://www.msfn.org/board/index.php?showtopic=1049 7).

This would be of a greater value than regular XP if it were just a naken windowing shell, say (only?) a bloated 150-200MB.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[mortonda]

Quick, someone mod this one "funny"... ;)

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[ramzak2k]

I have been doing their windows update through the update tool for quite sometime. Windows can well come without the Internet explorer if Microsoft really intends one to be so.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[MoronGames]

Or maybe just a splash screen that looks exactly like the blue screen.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[anethema]

Yeah, its the next best thing to -1: WRong

I love it when some know-it-all loser is arguing some stupid wrong point, then just get his post modded for +5 funny. Good ole slashdot.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[Saeed al-Sahaf]

And you can bet as soon as it's reliesed in Thailand, it will be mere minutes till the CDs are for sale around the world...

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[aauu]

How about releasing a Thai language only version. I only know one person who could use a Thai version in the us. MS could produce a version of XP that only supported languages of emerging markets.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[Pharmboy]

And you can bet as soon as it's reliesed in Thailand, it will be mere minutes till the CDs are for sale around the world...

I'm betting on it. Would even pay for it, if it is "crippled enough" to be useful.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[Jaysyn]

You mean like this?

Jaysyn

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[BW_Nuprin]

This one has a nicer splash screen?

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[MoronGames]

Precisely.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[Anonymous Coward]

The rest of us get the 'fully crippled" version.
Now, if we can just get Dell to stop setting up their boxes with
partitions such as this one: /dev/hde1, and /dev/hde2, so a Knoppix live CD cannot find a /knoppix folder there if you decided to run it off
the hard drive (faster) than off the cdrom.
What's this, some sort of Dell/Microsoft plan to keep us live
CD people out? My Damn Small Linux cd, based on
knoppix has to run off the cdrom also, because of this.
Then there is the winmodem that ships with that $2300 box...
Too much "crippling" going on here.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[tepples]

No, when you shoot for funny, and get insightful, thats ironic.

In practice, the only difference between Insightful and Funny is that Insightful rewards the poster with karma and Funny doesn't.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[drpatt]

I would like to get my hands on one of these if it does not include all the applications i dont need - windows messenger , internet explorer, Outlook express.

This version of Windows has been around for a long time. It is called NT4.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[Pharmboy]

I promise that if you stay here long enough, and actually enjoy it, karma won't matter anymore. Anyone who have been on slashdot for a year or so, posts a few times a month or more, and doesn't post like an idiot is going to have excellent karma.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[Phrogger]

> Im sure it still has IE tho, since they wont let you use windowsupdate with Firebird.

It's even more restrictive than that! I tried to connect to Windows Update with Mozilla. Not only do they require you to use IE but they insisted that "You must be running a Microsoft Windows operating system in order to use Windows Update." :-)

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[Snowspinner]

Yeah. The only thing that matters then is posting well and intelligently enough that you can abuse your moderator points without ever losing your karma.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[shfted!]

Shit, was at comment limit ;)

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[somethinghollow]

They are paying developers more money to cripple XP so they can sell it for less. Only a multi-billion dollar monopoly can get away with such illogical and rediculous actions.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[1u3hr]

It's funny, people complain about how MS forces you to install everything (IE, Outlook, etc) and call in "anti-competitive" and when they offer it somewhere with these things stripped out it's called "crippled".

I don't for a moment believe that the "reduced functionality" will mean cutting IE, Outlook Express or Windows Media. But I wouldn't be surprised at all if somehow this reduction made it harder to remove them or install competing apps.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[davester666]

Um, all the applications you mention are core features of the OS and couldn't possibly be removed unless they completely redid the entire OS.

It took MS man-months of effort just to make it safe to remove the icons for these applications from the desktop...

No, they probably will remove the ability to auto-patch the OS with the latest security fix of the day.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[TheMadPenguin]

Possible? Oh yeah! I have personally seen to it that the secret roadmap for this 'scaled down' OS was delivered right to my door this morning. Even though I will probably suffer a fate worse that death itself for disclosing it here, I am willing to take that chance for /.

Windows XP Shortcut Edition
Top Secret Roadmap

• Step 1 - Power on PC
• Step 2 - BSOD
• Step 3 - ???
• Step 2 - Profit

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[LO0G]

That's because embedded is designed to run on a single box, running a single application. Think Point Of Sale terminal, or DVD player. It's tested in this ONE configuration, by the OEM.

The retail version has to run on everyones computer, and has to do everything else that Windows does, EXCEPT for the stuff that was left out.

M$ doesn't have the money or time to test all the possible combinations and to verify all the possible things that doesn't work. For Embedded, it's the OEM's money and the OEM's time.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[Erwos]

I'm not sure whether you were ranting or being ignorant, so I'll assume someone else is ignorant and needs me to say the following:

This is done all the time. Take, for instance, the Quadro line of cards by nVidia. You are buying an intentionally crippled card everytime you buy a GeforceFX. Same hardware, sans a couple switched transistors and a slightly modified BIOS. In other words, they made the Quadro, and then crippled it to be the GeForce.

It's certainly not a tactic that only Microsoft employs. Indeed, most firms that sell both to the "individual consumer" and businesses do it. Singling out Microsoft as an evil corporation because they're employing intelligent (and in this case, non-monopolistic) business practices is stupid.

Basic economics. Literally, they taught it at the very lowest level economics course at my school.

-Erwos

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[HungWeiLo]

Intel, AMD - for example, Pentium 133-200 are the exact same chip. The chips which can be overclocked without failure are sold as 200's.

Automakers - Chrysler, for example, sold the same car as the Dodge Aries, Plymouth Reliant, Chrysler New Yorker, etc. with more or less leather, features, etc. according to each vehicle class. Or the classic case - the Chrysler LeBaron resold with leather seats as a new model with the newly acquired Maserati.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[leifm]

I'd jump on a version of XP without Messenger, Media Player, System Restore, System File Protection, Movie Maker, Outlook Express. I don't see how they could remove IE from any current version of Windows though. I don't like IE, and only use it for sites that won't work correctly with Moz(mostly Windows update) but removing it would break all kinds of stuff in Windows and third party apps. It'd be awesome if they de-integrated IE from Windows though, as most of the security exploits seem to come from holes in the IE zone security policies.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[DNS-and-BIND]

"folder"?

I thought linux had "directories". My mistake.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[Trejkaz]

And the blue screen probably says "you give zeny 55555" to fit with their culture.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[Reziac]

Ever since XP came out, I've been wishing for exactly such a "streamlined" version -- just the core OS, the admin/networking tools, and a minimal array of applets (such as what came with Win95). It would be more stable, less annoying, easier to customize, have fewer conflicts, and be less demanding of hardware (see anything in that list you don't like? :)

Which reminds me, did the 98Lite folk ever get their proposed XPLite tool finished?

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[ianr44]

After modding you funny, I can't seem to find the 'sad' option....

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[Altrag]

You can bet the things they'll pull out won't be IE, OE and Messenger. It'll be mostly stuff from the administrative tools, user profile options, ICS, etc.

The kind of stuff that 90% of "normal" consumers don't really use anyway, so that they can justify a new price level for people who can't (or don't want to) afford home edition.

And of course, if they decide not to release this stripped down (and lower-priced) version in the wealthier countries (US:P), then they'll have the best of both markets -- most people here aren't going to bother going through customs and everything for a cheaper copy of windows, and most people in Thailand and wherever will have a version of windows available at a price they can better afford.

Hopefully they won't decide to strip ICF :P (I doubt they will given all the security hounds on them these days and SP2 supposedly turning on the firewall by default and whatever else).

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[stfvon007]

Spending time and resources to make a product do less. I wonder if there also going to program in some extra secutity holes in that version for good measure? I can hear the announcement in the MS offices now......

"Well guys, we failed at fixing security holes and adding functionality, so were gonna do the exact opposite, Adding holes and REDUCING functionality! We should be good at that!"

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[Dashing Leech]

Basic economics. Literally, they taught it at the very lowest level economics course at my school.

Unfortunately, you left out the explanation of the economics. I've been curious about this for some time. Let me give it a shot, and tell me if I'm wrong.

Basically, there are two ways to make profit. If you price your product cheap (small profit margin), you don't make as much per unit but you'll probably get more sales. If you price it expensive (large profit margin) you make more per unit but don't likely sell as many. The "crippled version" approach takes advantage of both by using two markets: inexpensive vs better quality/features.

The unintuitive part is how can they sell the same product, with extra work put in to cripple it, at a lower price. Why not just leave it uncrippled and sell for the low price? The answer is that the crippled version is partially subsidized by the expensive version. You'd lose all of the bigger profit from the expensive version (since there wouldn't be one), so you'd have to sell a lot more at the cheaper price to make up for it. Having high quality at a low price will probably give you more sales, but perhaps not enough to make up the difference, especially because they are two different markets with different customers.

Looking at it another way, it makes sense to have products for both markets (cheap vs quality). If you didn't use the "cripple" approach, you'd actually have to design and build two different products. Using the "cripple" approach, you only have to design and build one system. The extra cost to cripple it is far lower than the cost of designing and building a second product. This reasoning makes more sense when the design and labour costs are high relative to the cost of components (raw materials). Software is certainly a case where raw materials are cheap, most of the expense is in the development.

Is this generally correct? Or am I missing something?

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[servanya]

Its just not funny anymore.
Most /. readers don't even know why it was funny the first time.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[zangdesign]

The "extra cost" actually becomes a slight savings, if the product is designed correctly. Consider: in the instance of two separate products, designed separately, with higher and lower functionality respectively, you require two different assembly lines, with two different approaches to creating two different products.

With the crippled version and the non-cripple version, you still require two assembly lines, but they are duplicates for most of the line, and perhaps require only removal of one or two positions to create the cripple versions of your hardware. You save time and money by creating one assembly line and effectively duplicating it for the lesser (or perhaps the greater) version.

You can even do it with one assembly line and some sort of selector programming where every fifth product is the higher level product (assuming it has one-fifth of the sales).

So you save some money on the manufacturing side. You also save money on the R&D side by creating two cards with only minor differences vs. creating two completely different cards.

It's pretty much the same as producing a car with a tape deck vs. cd player. The research is much the same, but the tape deck fits in the same slot as the CD player, and any room you would have used for the automatic changer is just extra space.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[Doomdark]

I'm serious exactly because they're not "enforcing a different option", they're enforcing nothing -- they're taking stuff out, not replacing it with something else.

As long as they do provide multiple versions (at least "full" and "light"), they are giving bit more options, but if they are/were only providing new "light" (aka crippled) version, they would indeed be forcing the choice. I think that's what poster you answered to was trying to suggest (ie. if MS just decided that in, say, Thailand, one can only by that diet Windows).

FWIW, I think it'd be good to have more choice with regards to Windows OE; starting with different configuration levels. For example, the only thing I currently need (or would need) Windows for would be to play games, ie. mostly use their DirectX libs. And thus chances are whatever is their most stripped down version of Windows would be very likely to work ok for me.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[CAIMLAS]

You have classic stupid poster syndrome. The article clearly states,

Mr McBean added that the first release would essentially be XP Home edition with some reduced functionality,

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[Endive4Ever]

You won't find that many non-Thailand customers who want to use a version not in their native language.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[Florian Weimer]

I would like to get my hands on one of these if it does not include all the applications i dont need - windows messenger , internet explorer, Outlook express. Just the basic UI.

I'm sure the UI will be Thai-only, as some sort of copy prevention scheme. If not, everyone would buy their Windows copies in Thailand, right?

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[Anonymous Coward]

Take, for instance, the Quadro line of cards by nVidia. You are buying an intentionally crippled card everytime you buy a GeforceFX. Same hardware, sans a couple switched transistors and a slightly modified BIOS. In other words, they made the Quadro, and then crippled it to be the GeForce.


Interesting.
I wonder why the Quadro line is priced between $500 and $1800 while the GeForce line is priced between $40 and $500.
Those must be some mighty expensive transistors they removed...
To me that means either the professionals who buy the Quadro are being ripped off, or NVidia is losing money on the GeForce.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[anti-trojan]

Intel, AMD - for example, Pentium 133-200 are the exact same chip. The chips which can be overclocked without failure are sold as 200's.

This is somewhat different. In this case, P133 is not intentionally crippled; it is slightly defective.

A better example would be 486 DX/SX case where Intel intentionally disabled math co-processor of DX and sold as SX (at a lower price). They also relabelled DX chips as 487 (co-processor) being an "upgrade" for 486SX users. Hence practically they sold some people the exact same chip twice.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[el pedro]

funny, I tried typing the update into Firebird, and I got a page that said it was only able to be accessed with IE, but that other security updates could be downloaded here:

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/search.aspx?d is playlang=en

and as far as I can tell it's legit.

I bash on M$ when it's appropriate, but save it for stuff that matters... :)

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[Jennifer E. Elaan]

Are you kidding? The Thai version of Windows has a little internationalization icon in the corner that lets you conveniently select between Thai and English.

I was just in Bangkok in December, and was forced to use Windows the whole time :(

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[Jennifer E. Elaan]

The reason that will fail is simple. Many of the people who would be buying this are also attempting to learn a bit of English.

If you look around the more affluent areas of Bangkok, you see ads for English lessons everywhere, a huge location in The Mall Bangkapi devoted to it, and the like. While the primary language is obviously Thai, English is used often enough, especially in school and business, that it can't be ignored.

An OS that doesn't support english at all would probably be a spectacular flop.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[Anonymous Coward]

It doesn't have to be expensive transistors removed. Remove even a cheap one, and you can turn a great product into an average one.

Same for lots of things... an egg in an expensive restaraunt doesn't cost much more than an egg in a cheap one.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[somethinghollow]

Either way (rant or ignorance), it is still completley illogical. Develop the bottom line, then add features to make the top of the line. Apple made the eMac and iBook with the ability to do dual display spanning, but crippled it to be only mirroring. Someone "hacked" it, and now I can span monitors on my eMac. They paid developers to cripple it so they could sell it for less. I pay less and can still have the same features.

It seems like bad business practice if you spend money to sell something for less money. It's also, apparently, bad practice to defent Microsoft on /..

But I got a "C" in economics. It seemed like it was the art of Pulling Things Out of Your Ass.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[gotw]

I remember a similar (slightly dafter sounding) ploy made by toshiba with their libretto laptops. Their supplier no longer made hard drives of the size they wanted to supply with the 70CT (2GB I think) so they bundled a larger hard drive, and set the BIOS up to only acnowledge 2GB of space! It didn't take long for people who knew to circumvent it, probably merely a sizeable minority tho.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[adeyadey]

Indeed they can, as this Demo of new version of Windows shows..

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[Groote Ka]

Apparently, it is. Nice step, they lost all their anti-trust defences

Didn't they initially claim that all functionality had to be in their to provide a proper functionning OS? And that therefore, MS/Windows could not be split up?

Food for thought for the EU in the MS anti-trust case. Go Mario.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[nikster]

I think it is Microsoft who wants to call it "crippled". They want you to think, pay less, get less (inverse logic: there must be some reason ppl in the US pay more, right?).

For us, less is more, so you pay less, get the same - without all the annoying and useless feature bloat. Great news, actually :)

Even better: M$ knows that the light version needs to be able to play all games. Which is perfect for people who run linux and just use win for games.

"Oh, no! They took out Clippy!"

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[Darkangael]

The admin/networking tools are probably likely candidates to be taken out (look at XP home).

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[Winkhorst]

"You are buying an intentionally crippled card..."

I think what you're missing is that some products have enough functionality for a crippled version to remain a quite usable product. The problem with XP and the like is that the uncrippled version is so bad that intentionally crippling it makes it act as if it were, well, crippled even more than usual....

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[jsebrech]

In a free market price is set by the meeting place of the supply and demand curves. These are over the entire market. What creating a crippled version does is split the single market into two. One market with people willing to pay more for extra features, the other market for the rest. No loss is made on the "el cheapo" market, and a considerable profit is made in the expensive market, in comparison with selling it all at the same price.

Differentiating your market is necessary to sell commodity products (which video cards are). As demonstrated by the major sporting goods manufacturers (nike, adidas, ...), which sell differentiated logos with regular clothes attached to them.

That microsoft is forced to differentiate its market like this is good news. It means they're losing their monopoly power. A monopoly can always sell everything at the higher price. Clearly, they can't anymore, not everywhere at least. So three cheers to the downfall of the evil empire.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[Casualposter]

I hate to say it...

Windows XP ain't THAT bad. For me, I'm a MAC/Linux Guy, but work...well they buy Microsoft stuff. OLD Microsoft Stuff. Like Windows 98. Get a new DELL and the IT guy puts WIN 98 on it. Let me remind you all that WIN98 isn't really an OS, its a countdown timer to a data losing crash. Win XP doesn't crash so often, which for me is a LOT Better. I wouldn't call XP "crippled" but rather, vunerable. A lot of stuff in XP works, well a lot better than other versions of windows.

Of course, I snuck Linux onto an old box down in the lab where the IT guy can't find it, and there it just runs and runs and runs.

I wonder, though, if it is not too much trouble to remove features from(Cripple) XP, why was it impossible to remove IE back during the antitrust trial? Isn't IE just another feature like the BSOD. (Which for the uninitiated does really still exist in Windows XP. I got one the other day.)

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[cshark]

How could it get any lighter than home edition without becoming windows nt 4? There's a thought... Why such a hubub? If they want a fully featured OS, let them use linux. Current incarnations of Windows are still lagging behind it.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[Paladine97]

So you're trying to connect to Microsoft to get updates for your Microsoft OS?

Seems fair to me that they require you to use their browser for WindowsUpdate considering the service is free (but not the OS of course).

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[McAddress]

It's possible to wring even less functionality out of Windows XP?

no. this is a slightly crippled version of XP, as opposed to the version they sell in the USA which is a highly crippled version.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[drfishy]

Not that one! ;)

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[Winkhorst]

"I wonder, though, if it is not too much trouble to remove features from(Cripple) XP, why was it impossible to remove IE back during the antitrust trial? Isn't IE just another feature like the BSOD. (Which for the uninitiated does really still exist in Windows XP."

This is just one of those inconsistencies that pops up when a person or corporation starts telling fibs without worrying about being consistent.

As for XP not being that bad, this is kind of like saying that your migraine headaches have been replaced with normal headaches that aren't that bad and only last a couple of hours instead of half a day. XP won't even allow drag and drop from and to a writable CD without having a third party program running. What are they going to do now, cripple the ability to drag and drop between regular drives? Block the use of the media player? Make you edit the registry in machine language? I really can't imagine what they could cripple that isn't either part of their plan to take over the world or is actually necessary for the computer to run properly.

Maybe they'll just make it impossible to boot anything but Windows....

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[Noren]

In some cases, if there is active quality control and testing after initial manufacture, you can use the ones off the line which are not quite up to the full uncrippled spec but work at the crippled level. At the extreme, you can just test all of your output, bin it by quality, and honestly sell different products from the same manufacturing process- this can happen in CPU manufacture.

More often, the proportions of high to low quality manufactured do not match what the marketing people think the proportions of high-end to low-end should be (or the actual sales figures in the case of a mature product line) and so you just toss some of the high bin quality parts in with the lower quality parts until the proportions are correct.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[bhtooefr]

What, you all use Lunix? What country do you live in? I mean, it must be pretty poor if you're running C64s everywhere!

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[FRiC]

Oh please god no. I support multiple language versions of Microsoft products at work, including Thai, and I've never seen anyone that actually uses the Thai menus unless for some reason the Thai menus can't be disabled. The Thai menu translations are way too literal and they don't translate the terms into terms that are in common use, and the users just end up confused...

Not to mention, the shortcut keys have to be pressed in Thai...

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[Reziac]

Unfortunately, you're probably right. :(

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[Lodragandraoidh]

I feel I must point out to you that there is no 'assembly line' in software development (although that phrase could be applied loosely to copying the application to CD and distribution of same).

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[HD Webdev]

In a free market price is set by the meeting place of the supply and demand curves. These are over the entire market. What creating a crippled version does is split the single market into two. One market with people willing to pay more for extra features, the other market for the rest.

Usually, the split is already there in a lot of situations. Here is an example.

I used to be in charge of ordering parts and accessories for Harley-Davidson & other motorcycles vendors. When I took over ordering (being their database & computer guru guy who rides bikes, it made sense to them). I started to make things more efficient. The first thing I started investigating was why we purchased duplicate parts from different vendors that had similar costs for us. My thought was this 'We're tracking the same products twice, it's a waste of shipping costs, it's harder for me to track product sales trends, etc...'.

The owner explained it to me like this 'notice that we charge almost double the price for one of the duplicate products? We do that because many people will pay top dollar regardless of the fact that the products are identical. They are either filthy rich or believe that you always get what you pay for'.

He then had me spend a few weeks selling as well as ordering and told me to show both identical products to customers when they requested them. I was instructed to be completely honest with customers ie: don't claim one is better or has more features.

After that, I ran some calculations using the product & sales database and found that ~20% of the time, people were buying the more expensive product even though we never made any claims about product 'a' having different features than product 'b'.

Also, I could see by looking at the numbers that those ~20% of higher product sale profits made the other 80% look like a drop in the bucket.

I imagine that if we could have crippled one version of each product we would have picked up quite a few more percent of higher priced (profit) sales. We wouldn't be making a split of the market so much, we'd just be shifting some from one side of the existing split to the other.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[HD Webdev]

In some cases, if there is active quality control and testing after initial manufacture, you can use the ones off the line which are not quite up to the full uncrippled spec but work at the crippled level. At the extreme, you can just test all of your output, bin it by quality, and honestly sell different products from the same manufacturing process- this can happen in CPU manufacture

It's like that with hard drives and many other similar products.

Many may not know it, but (for example) buying a SOMEBRAND hard drive from low priced computer-electronics store most likely means that they've purchased a drive that is at the very low end of passing quality control at SOMEBRAND. The model numbers will be the same except for some obscure code letters/numbers most often only on the drive itself, not as often on the box (at least that I've noticed).

I do programming here, but the technicians offer both low end and high end of the same hard drives and are happy to explain why to customers if they ask.

We win either way. If they pay the higher price for the high end QC Passed hard drive, they probably won't have problems with it for a long time and we make a few extra dollars.

If they think we are full of crap and buy the cheaper drive, that's fine too, we'll be able to sell them another drive in the nearer future and they'll be more likely to trust and listen to our advice in the future.

Another bonus is that we don't have to play the 'buy an extended warrantee' game with people. We just double the standard warrantee on the better drives and skip the pressure sales.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[zangdesign]

I was under the impression that the PP was commenting about hardware. If not, I wasted a really good explanation.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[cartermb]

Close, but it actually works in reverse. The cheaper product is actually used to subsidize the cost of the higher cost product, bringing down the total cost per unit. The cheap ones are sold at a very tiny profit and the expensive ones are sold at a greater profit that they would have if the cheap ones weren't made and sold. Of course, the assumption is that the market will bear the cost and volume of both. But when you're selling to millions in Thailand who would have bought it off the street for $3 otherwise, chances are that you will sell several of the cheaper variety where you would have sold 0 of the expensive one. At least, that's the theory.

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[WhiteWolf666]

Err......

Yes, basically....

However, this happens less in the software markets, because it really doesn't save money to take out features.

It DOES save money to take out feature in hardware, even if they don't actually remove the features from the chips....I'll explain, in just a second.

Several Points:
1: Microsoft makes monopoly profits on software. In a 100% efficent market, there are no profits. Corporations make exactly the amount of revenue necessary to cover all costs (note that this includes the CEO's paychecks). This is a good thing in a capitalist economy----You have optimal generation of wealth for all involved, consumers+producers.

Monopoly profits are the other end of the spectrum. When there is only 1 supplier of a product, and no competing products (or substitutes), you can set the prices high enough to maximize your profits---Note:This does not allow you to set the prices astronomically high, just high enough such that you maximize your profit function---You still are subject to supply and demand, you just reduce supply such that the reduction in units sold does not overwhelm the increased profit per unit.

Technically, Microsoft is not a complete monopoly, so they aren't right at the monopoly end of the spectrum, but they are pretty DAMN close.

2:You are kind of right about the two ways to make profit. You are also kind of wrong. More sales+less per unit means greater efficency in the market. If you have a billion competitors, you have to sell things at the lowest possible price--->These 'two ways' of making profits are actually just two scenarios you have picked on a greater spectrum, where the extremes are monopoly profits and no profits.

3:Cripplware, at least in this market (Microsoft) is an attempt to stem off competitors. Even though Microsoft gains some sales from the crippled product, my guess is that this strategy is a loser for them overall.

However, it is preferable to loosing marketshare---this just moves them in the direction of being a more competitive (as opposed to monopolistic) corporation.

4: Hardware versus software crippleware. One need to remember that in hardware, you get manufacturing errors. If I make a processor with 2 MB cache, which is my high end version, I end up loosing, say, 40%, mainly because of inconsistencies in the wafers. (On a technical note, cache is one of the largest space users on processor dies). I can take these reject processors, only enable 128KB of cache, and Voila!, I can ignore flawed components on 75% of my reject processors.

This also works with processors that have multiple execution units (Radeon 9500 versus Radeon 9700, or Geforce FX 5800 versus Geforce FX 5600). If I only enable half of the 'pipelines', I only need to have a 1 working set of pipelines---I can take a whole lot of my rejects and sell them as a lower end part.

This, as you can understand, substantially lowers the number of chips that I need to discard.

More importantly, in the world of non-intellectual property, this is a cost-saving measure that I can implement regardless of how much profit I'm making---monopoly or no, it always helps me.

5: In a more competitive market (oligopolistic probably wouldn't be enough, we would need quite a few competitors), crippled software would not make any sense at all----

Since it doesn't cost you anything to sell your top product at the crippled price, you would need to do this to protect marketshare. As the market becomes more fluid, and there are more substitionary products, profit margin per unit becomes less important, and market share becomes all important.

You do whatever it takes to hold on to market share, which means bringing your full product to the marketplace at the minimum possible price.

To me, this sort of rebranding is an indication that the market is not operating efficently.

However, this doesn't mean that the government should get involved----we are seeing low level movements in the ma

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[roger_and_out]

Remember the days when IBM used to do this all the time on almost every product? The line behind it was 'You are paying for what it does, not for what it is' Some customers discovered the bigger sheave on the 082 card sorter's motor pulley and moved the belt onto it. Twice the speed! Yeehaaaa!

Re:You mean you can cripple it more?

[fastdecade]

There's a name for this - "discretionary pricing". It can be a dirty phrase because of associations with anti-competitve behaviour, but it is intrinsically a useful means of allocating resources effectively.

BTW Remember the 486-SX chip, which was a 486-DX with the math coprocessor disabled?

Slightly Crippled?

[Phosphor3k]

Sounds like an improvement. Thats about three steps less crippled than my version, and cheaper to boot!

Re:Slightly Crippled?

[bersl2]

Oh, so you only have to put in a dime, instead of a quarter, when you reboot?

Re:Slightly Crippled?

[nazh]

Slightly Crippled?
But it comes with a free Frogurt.
/ob simpsons quote

Owner: Take this object, but beware it carries a terrible curse!
Homer: [worried] Ooooh, that's bad.
Owner: But it comes with a free Frogurt!
Homer: [relieved] That's good.
Owner: The Frogurt is also cursed.
Homer: [worried] That's bad.
Owner: But you get your choice of topping!
Homer: [relieved] That's good.
Owner: The toppings contains Potassium Benzoate.
Homer: [stares]
Owner: That's bad.


snipped from snpp.com

Re:Slightly Crippled?

[ircbuddy]

omg hi2u aslplz

Re:Slightly Crippled?

[Anonymous Coward]

Slightly Crippled?

Microsoft selling a "slightly crippled" XP is like Evian selling a "slightly wet" water.

slightly crippled version

[frovingslosh]

slightly crippled version of Windows XP

Boy, how can I buy this. I would much rather have a slightly crippled version rather than the massively crippled version that Microsoft supplied my OEM for use with my notebook.

Re:slightly crippled version

[Luban Doyle]

Per one of the posts above there are about 40 baht to $1. That comes out to about $37.50 if you buy the retail version at 1500 baht.

But Wait...

[Mr. Fusion]

Didn't they already released Windows XP Home?

-Mr. Fusion

Re:But Wait...

[AKnightCowboy]

Didn't they already released Windows XP Home?

Try reading the article. Windows XP Home was still too expensive for these users in Thailand. I seriously doubt you'll be able to get it outside of some OEM deals on computers sold in Thailand so I wouldn't get so enthused over this.

Re:But Wait...

[LostCluster]

The pro-Linux camps, however, have something to worry about here. Basically, Microsoft is willing to create a cut-rate version of XP rather than risk the users there switching over to Linux....

Re:But Wait...

[Pharmboy]

and no matter how much MS trims and cuts the price, Linux will still always be less than half the price ;) And no activation. And no locked into proprietary systems. And no peer to peer networking limitations (3 on home, 5 on pro). Oh, and almost no worms.

Re:But Wait...

[UnknowingFool]

No, as per MS standard naming conventions:

X = ascii(88)
P = ascii(80)

So in MS logic, we will have to substract 11 from both letters because 11 is binary for 3 and this is the third version of XP.

ascii (88-11) = ascii(77) = M
ascii (80-11) = ascii(69) = E

Hence, this version will be known as Windows ME.

. . .

How apropos.

Re:But Wait...

[confuse(issue)]

The pro-Linux camps, however, have something to worry about here. Basically, Microsoft is willing to create a cut-rate version of XP rather than risk the users there switching over to Linux....

That's true. I hope the guys at Fedora can make a slightly crippled version for a little less money. Oh wait, the free version has free functionality and is available with at least limited Thai language support. I do hope that can compete with crippled XP home light in terms of functionality.

Re:But Wait...

[TCM]

And no peer to peer networking limitations (3 on home, 5 on pro).

What exactly are you talking about?

Re:But Wait...

[maxbang]

There's more to it than that - I'm venturing they're releasing this in hopes that people will purchase something from them, not from the local "vendor" on the corner selling XP out of the back of his autorikshaw. That way they get a little money. The Linux thing is valid, but part of a larger picture.

Re:But Wait...

[anagama]

I've never seen numerology applied so adroitly.

Re:But Wait...

[SparkMan]

the MS shrink-wrap licenses restrict the number of connections you are supposed to be allowed to have to the PC running the OS

they want you to buy XP Server edition to run real servers

Re:But Wait...

[pdk]

I'm not sure but it seems to be not to be to compete against Linux but to compete against piracy. Strange they think that crippling it will make piracy disappear or less prevalent. I'm not sure about you, but I'd rather pay slightly more for a slightly full version of a pirated copy of something than less for a less-than-functional one.

I also wonder how long it will be before this slightly crippled version is on the streets for even less than MS asks for it.

Re:But Wait...

[Pharmboy]

Im talking about the limitations of how many computers you can use in a peer to peer in Windows. How it doesn't allow you connect more. You get to buy Windows Server instead. You can't connect 10 computers running XP home in a peer to peer using Windows networking, they won't see each other. Even XP Pro has peer to peer limitations that prevent it from doing so, but a higher threshold. Windows 9x you could raise the limit in the Netbeui portion of the protocol's properties from the default setting of 10 "maximum connections". XP doesn't have that option.

They could make this crippled version connect to an NT server only, with no peer to peer support. This is one way to cripple Windows so it won't get used in businss, but is ok for home use.

Re:But Wait...

[Anonymous Coward]

My hello world OS has no activation, no lock-in, no p2p limitations, and zero worms. If you're trying to sell Linux, you should mention what it does have not what it doesn't.

Re:But Wait...

[neko9]

that VERY interesting what they removed that is so expensive in WinXP. error messages? say two times cheaper and without GUI ;-)

Re:But Wait...

[Ark42]

Never realized that before, but never tried a ton of windows machines without a server before either. Just for the sake of completeness, whats the default limits for NT4 and 2000 and can you change those?

Re:But Wait...

[Jaysyn]

This is the same 10 user limit as in Windows 2000 Pro, but I *think* it's defeatable (in Win2K) with a registry hack. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Jaysyn

Re:But Wait...

[Pharmboy]

My hello world OS has no activation, no lock-in, no p2p limitations, and zero worms. If you're trying to sell Linux, you should mention what it does have not what it doesn't.

I use both, so I'm not exactly trying to sell Linux, but your point is still valid for those that are selling it.

At this stage, I'm more likely to switch back to Mac instead of Linux on the desktop, at least for another year or two. Only use Linux for servers, but still using Windows for the desktop because I love "new, exciting, open and free" but I love photoshop, quark and pc games, and I am more concerned with ease of use and security than freedom on the desktop. For servers, its security and freedom that concern me. Obviously Windows is no longer fitting the bill for either, for my purposes.

I am not a Linux zealot, I'm a Linux realist. I know its almost but not quite ready for primetime on the desktop, and at the cusp of being the best thing out there for servers. Eventually, Linux will be the dominant operating system on the desktop, or at least some unix like system based on Linux/BSD. It just makes sense on so many levels, particularly in security and portability for programmers (once they get the api thing worked out on the desktop.) Windows will still be there, and perhaps as a desktop ontop of a BSD kernel, like Mac. I mean, they ARE licensing Unix technology from SCO, aren't they ;) In 10 years, I would bet they would be the AOL of desktops. Big, but not 51% of the market.

I will say this, I'm far from an expert, but have run several Linux servers for many years and tend to run services on seperate boxes for security and redundency. Linux is at least as easy as Windows server for what I do, just different. Considering I can ssh in and start or stop any services quickly, upgrade, update, install, uninstall, and actually see all the processes that are currently running on a single screen, I would say its much easier to maintain.

Re:But Wait...

[Pharmboy]

Win2k is 10, and I am not sure about NT4. I want to say it is like Win95, being the same interface without plug and play, meaning a default of 10 but changeable in the NetBeui properties (along with NCBS, which I have no idea is for). But I can't swear to NT4 or older. I have a copy of NT 3.1 around here somewhere, I could install and see I guess:) I know WfW 3.11 had no limitations, but was rather slow. At least it would network with Win95

There is no technical reason for the limitation, its purely a licensing thing. You know....

3. Profit!

Oh, on another point. I have a network with about 20 computers right now that needed a simple file server, so its got a P3/1ghz server running Windows 95, lol. The stations are all 98/ME/2k/pro. The 2k and pro boxes connect ok because I have file/printer sharing OFF on all the rest. They are more forgiving about connecting to a 9x "server". On a pure xp network, you just dont see the computers over the threshold. They don't exist.

And no, it was not easy getting 95 to run properly and semi secure on a newer box without proper drivers, but it runs well as long as you boot it every month (it runs out of seconds to count at about 39 days and like all 95, will autocrash then). And since it is firewalled off the net (hardware and software) it does the job. Oh, and yes, its even a licensed copy of 95.

Re:But Wait...

[AKnightCowboy]

that VERY interesting what they removed that is so expensive in WinXP. error messages? say two times cheaper and without GUI ;-)

I don't know. I'm using Windows XP Professional and there's honestly nothing in it I would've paid over $50 for to upgrade from Windows 2000 Professional. I got it for $20 through a campus licensing program, but if I had to buy it on my own at full price I would've just stuck with Windows 2000. I can't imagine how crippled the XP Home version is if XP Pro is this bland. I would've expected developer tools like Visual Studio and Office 2003 Professional to be bundled in with XP Professional for the outrageous price they charge for it normally (over $200!!!). I can get basically the same thing, sans the support for Windows games, by installing Debian GNU/Linux w/OpenOffice.

Re:But Wait...

[Pharmboy]

This is the same 10 user limit as in Windows 2000 Pro, but I *think* it's defeatable (in Win2K) with a registry hack. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

better yet, tell me the hack ;) I got one box it would come in handy with right now. I had not heard of this particular hack. I had heard of, and played a little with, the NT4 workstation/server hack, but didn't really have a purpose for using it at the time. That was back in the day when Microsoft considered every web surfer that connected to your server in a 10 minute period a "client", requiring a license on the server side.

Re:But Wait...

[cmacb]

"I know its almost but not quite ready for primetime on the desktop, and at the cusp of being the best thing out there for servers."

Depends on what you do. Other than Second Life (see Sig) I play no games on my computer at all. Once SL comes out with it's Linux version later this year there will be absolutely no reason for me to keep a Windows system.

Everyone I know who feels a "need" to run Windows is using it primarily to play games, other than that we are dealing with people who just don't know any better. For these people, the Clue-train is just pulling into the station. But for non-gamers, Linux is the better desktop now. I prove it almost every day by helping some Windows user get "unstuck".

Re:But Wait...

[tepples]

You mean like "HAL" vs. "IBM" or "VMS" vs. "WNT"?

Re:But Wait...

[antiMStroll]

If policy allows, do yourself a favour and replace 95 on that server with e-smith linux. It was recently spun back to the community by Mitel and I've yet to see a more intuitive, simple Samba server.

Re:But Wait...

[antiMStroll]

The opposite is more true. Microsoft's business case relies on the high dollar return per package sold. Which of their high yield customers feel they deserve to be treated less well than the Thais? Everyone will want price reductions now.

Re:But Wait...

[Pharmboy]

I have a few different distros of Linux on one computer (its a 2.5xp with a dozen removable drive racks :) and I like KDE pretty well, but it is still not quite up to windows for everyday use, imho. Also, i can't run photoshop or quark on linux. and no, gimp wont work, i work with cmyk images. Linux isn't a desktop option for me right now, regardless.

For people who use the net for internet only, I would lean closer to Linux. When redhat had their RHN service, it was more viable, but until someone has automated tools for updating, it won't pass the "my mom" test.

But until Adobe start porting apps to it, I can't and/or won't use it on the desktop. I debate this all the time with others, but I still feel like it will be another year or two before I would recommend it for newbs. Novell/SuSe has some great promise in this field.

I know lots of Linux desktop users disagree, and they are free to. All I can do is judge from my own experience.

Re:But Wait...

[peragrin]

You have way to much free fucking time on your hands.

On the flip side it does take an over active imangiation to be ableto come up with that.

now I am not sure if I should praise you fore being smart, or beat you for being a smart ass.

Re:But Wait...

[Pharmboy]

If policy allows, do yourself a favour and replace 95 on that server with e-smith linux. It was recently spun back to the community by Mitel and I've yet to see a more intuitive, simple Samba server.

I had played with samba and found the performance to be very good, but had trouble getting both 95 and 98 to connect. Now thats not an issue, since all the 95 boxes are gone. I am planning to move it over this summer (too busy this time of year). Had not heard of e-smith, tho, thanks for the lead.

Re:But Wait...

[toddestan]

Interesting, but why not set up a Linux box with Samba? Probably could just format the hard drive with one huge, blank partition. Then load up Knoppix and have it start Samba. I believe the default in Knoppix is to share everything with read/write access.

Also, I can seem to get around the limitation in XP by typing in the IP address directly, such as
\\192.168.1.100
in the Run dialog.

Re:But Wait...

[TykeClone]

So why not just run a linux/samba server in its place? With that, you could even implement an NT security domain as well as doing the file server.

Re:But Wait...

[Rallion]

That's interesting...I was at a LAN with 11 people, and we had 100% network functionality. Sharing files and all. All running various versions of XP. ...am I magic? Seriously. I believe you. But I believe me too.

Re:But Wait...

[1u3hr]

There's more to it than that - I'm venturing they're releasing this in hopes that people will purchase something from them, not from the local "vendor" on the corner selling XP out of the back of his autorikshaw.

Actually, they hope that this will be OEM. There's no hope of any end-users buying real MS software in Thailand. A lot of the cheap Linux PCs sold under this program in Thailand had bootleg MS OS's installed the first time they booted. And the vendors in Tailand don't sell out warez off the back of a tuktuk, but in almost every computer shop (under the counter if there's a blitz).

Re:But Wait...

[neko9]

exactly. overpriced it is. maybe because it's too bloated... currently my WinXP Pro dir takes 1.2gb HD space. and that with restore and other shit turned off, disabled and Lite'ed (btw it's time for another re-install)... and thats only OS. on my Mandrake box on 850mb (yes 850mb) system HD (home, tmp and swap is on another one) is OS and many apps (like The GIMP, GNOME, Fluxbox, Opera, gFTP, BlueFish, Electric Eyes, Xmms, Xmovie, Xine...etc etc etc). and considering that 99% of apps that i use comes with Mandrake... so yes - WinXP is overbloated and overpriced...

Re:But Wait...

[JoeZeppy]

Nope, not true, never been true.

No more than 10 computers can connect to any one windows worksatation at any time. Has nothing to do with number of PC's in a network.

Inbound Connections Limit in Windows XP

You know, if you Linux fanboys would get your noses out of the air long enough to actually learn something about XP, instead of spewing the same old wive's tales and self-congratulatory bullshit, you might learn that it doesn't suck anywhere near as bad as you'd like to think.

Re:But Wait...

[Reziac]

Actually, the 47 day bug doesn't happen on ALL Win9* installs (it doesn't on my main Win95 and Win98 boxes), and from all I've read, I think it may need a hardware glitch to trigger -- maybe some interaction with system timer? Anyway, there is a patch for it, if you can find it. M$ has deleted a lot of the Win95 support files. :(

Re:But Wait...

[Aliencow]

Especially since XP Server edition doesn't exist. Must be a very expensive license to buy!

Re:But Wait...

[advocate_one]

"And no activation."

They've already removed product activation from the special cut price bundle they were doing for Thailand...

"Microsoft was even willing to remove product activation from the Thai version of their product. Of course, that doesn't open them up to much of a risk of bootlegging since people in other countries are not going to want to run the Thai versions of Windows and Office."

Re:But Wait...

[ReallyQuietGuy]

is to curb piracy

i had thought it was to stop linux.

Re:But Wait...

[Pharmboy]

actually, the default in knoppix is to mount hard drives RO. and you can't patch, or change services easily, since you have to every time you reboot.

Re:But Wait...

[Pharmboy]

that is interesting, would have to have considerable more data. But the limits are there as per license, and my experience as well. Now you will force me to go google and experiment, lol.

Re:But Wait...

[Pharmboy]

my understanding is that is used a 28 bit word to count the seconds since last reboot and it ran out of seconds. I can't swear to this, but it would run out of bits at the 47 days. Then again, it doesnt really matter since it is rather difficult to get 9x to run that long regardless.

Re:But Wait...

[Reziac]

Yeah, the origin is something like you mention, but any time this bug generates serious discussion, you'll find about half the people posting have seen it FAIL to manifest on at least *some* machines. (My own main Win95 and Win98 boxes have both had uptimes of a couple months -- somewhat beyond the 47 day rollover point.) From these various discussions, it does look like there is some hardware element, either required for the bug or that prevents it from manifesting.

Of course, could be cuz Windows is terrified of me and doesn't dare crash anyway :) I have a *WinME* box that, in intermittent but strenuous use, and with tons of crap installed, hasn't crashed in 3.5 YEARS!

Re:But Wait...

[SparkMan]

Windows Server 2003 or something like that. I've never bought it, probably never will, and therefore don't really care about the exact name. Linux makes a better server anyway.

Re:But Wait...

[Pharmboy]

or it could be a bug in windows that fails to count the seconds properly in some configurations, so it never reaches its top limit :D

Re:But Wait...

[bninja_penguin]

I realize the reason Microsoft is creating the "cut-rate" version of XP is two-fold, One, to stop(?) piracy, and Two, to stop people from thinking of switching to Linux. There are a couple of problems with that train of thought though. Last I heard, the target marketplace for the "cut-rate" or "crippled" or "streamlined" version is already able to get a "pirated" version of XP Pro (full-blown) for about US $5.00. So, why would someone want to buy a "crippled" version for US $37.50? Same applies to the segment wanting to switch to Linux. Why pay US $37.50 for a "cut-rate" version of XP, when you can get the Linux distro of your choice for the price of a burnable cd?
food for thought.....

Re:But Wait...

[Reziac]

That could be as well. Tho it would be interesting to compare chipsets etc. vs non-affected systems. Mine are both Intel (of different eras -- TX and BX400). It wouldn't be the first time a hardware glitch was needed to make some Windows or driver bug manifest!

Microsoft Plan

[GonzoDave]

1.Release product in piracy capital of the world
2.?????
3.Profit!

Re:Microsoft Plan

[phalse phace]

Yeah, but Microsoft won't be the ones doing the profitting.

Re:Microsoft Plan

[Threni]

It's a masterstroke, isn't it. Surely people will just pirate the US version? Or perhaps a most local one, if it's in a language they speak?

How to have both...

[Foolhardy]

Microsoft is notorious for bundling things to cause lock-in.
How are they going to balance that with creating a light version of XP?

Re:How to have both...

[Aneurysm9]

Sounds like the last line of the article covered that. They're going to provide a "clear upgrade path" to XP Home and Pro. Sure, "we clear your bank account and you get to upgrade."

Re:How to have both...

[CrazyDuke]

"They're going to provide a "clear upgrade path" to XP Home and Pro."

My psychic powers are hamonizing with this image...
I see...I see...

Something about that the first 30 seconds of startup and shutdown will be ads along the lines of "Like XP lite? Buy XP Home or Pro, today!" And if IE is still on it, it will randomly startup with "Upgrade to XP Full Today!" instead of your start page. And every time you try to run more than 3 programs at a time: "We're sorry, but this version is not able to handle that many programs. Purchase XP full today and run as many as you like!"

AKA Nagware disguised as a retail product that never lets you go more than 5 minutes without being nagged with an ad to upgrade it.

-Take heed.- This is but one of many paths in the world of scumbag corporate business as usual.

*looks around* What? WTF? What just happend? *walks away confused*

Shoot them the URL to Knoppix while you're at it

[Wunderbar!]

I guess the choice would be easy.

why do it?

[monadicIO]

The article says "
because of the complexity of an operating system, reducing functionality was not a simple process and every modification would have to be thoroughly tested.
So why would it make sense to spend more money in making these reductions? Why not just give the standard package? I'm missing something here.

Re:why do it?

[cgranade]

The article also says that there will be an easy upgrade path to XPH and XPP. Also, this project is endorsed by the gov't of Taiwan to try and bring computing to the masses. I can see MS happy to take a deep loss on this one. Even piracy wouldn't be too bad here, as it would start the MS monoculture momentum.

Re:why do it?

[s20451]

Am I the only one who thinks this is to keep Linux and other free operating systems out of third world countries? In that sense it would be a strategic move.

Looks like Microsoft is finally listening to their poorer customers.

Re:why do it?

[DrEldarion]

So why would it make sense to spend more money in making these reductions? Why not just give the standard package? I'm missing something here

Very simple.

User buys XP Lite, uses it for a while, and then decides he needs all the functionality. User then buys XP Home/Pro.

They have now bought two copies of the OS. Money++ for Microsoft.

Re:why do it?

[MattCohn.com]

Because they're also going to sell the regular version of XP? This happens all the time, with hardware too. Like USB flash drives... it's cheaper for a company to manufacture only 256MB Modules but then to switch some jumper and sell them as 128MB then it is to manufacture 128's and 256's.

Re:why do it?

[lambent]

Intriguing ... so what brand and model of USB drive can I buy and convert to 256?

Re:why do it?

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, this project is endorsed by the gov't of Taiwan

Article makes no mention of Taiwan.

Re:why do it?

[bakes]

User then buys XP Home/Pro. ...for $2 from the nearest street vendor

Re:why do it?

[Pharmboy]

Intel 486SX chips were simply 486DX chips that either had bad FPUs or had the FPUs manually disabled. Same chip. Some 75mhz Pentiums were the same as 100mhz, just moved down because they were producing better quality than expected. This is why so many overclocked them with ease. The practice is pretty common. Maybe a 128 are converted from 256's that had errors above 128, so they cut off everything over 128, or chop back good 256s if they need more. Legitimate and common.

Re:why do it?

[Kanasta]

In Thailand, WinXP IS free...

Re:why do it?

[Tony Hoyle]

A friend just bought a radeon SE, got a firmware hack for it and it became a full radeon... Not sure what model, though (I was only half listening at the time) but it seems ATI only produce one board an cripple it for the cheaper end of the market.

Re:why do it?

[fermion]

I think this change will be mostly symbolic. Many things in Windows, for example IE and WMP, are functionally profit centers. Other features such as networking and the like are necessities. People will still purchase unlicensed copies rather that live without the critical features.

But the changes are necessary. MS cannot sell a product for 1/10 the price in one part of the world and still say the product is worth the full price. So my suspicion is that the features will be disabled similar to the way some shareware is sold. Upgrading will enable all the features. There will probably be a hack to enable all features without paying the license fee. In any case, MS can now sell what is effectively the full product at a small fraction of list without running to dumping, monopoly, and other accusations.

Re:why do it?

[ithilienrp]

n Thailand, WinXP IS free...

Not really, it's still around $3 for a copy ;-)

Re:why do it?

[RealityThreek]

Yeah, you are missing something. The price for the OS is relatively cheaper there. Would be a great place to buy it for cheap and offer it in other countries, eh? By crippling it, they ensure people get what they pay for.

Someone else suggested they "cripple" it by making it Thai only. I think that's a good idea. But hey, the worse Windows is there the better chance they'll switch to Linux instead.

Re:why do it?

[timeOday]

So why would it make sense to spend more money in making these reductions? Why not just give the standard package? I'm missing something here.

You could say the same about XP home vs. XP professional. Just an artifical way to segment the market so everybody pays as much as possible.

Re:why do it?

[1u3hr]

So why would it make sense to spend more money in making these reductions? Why not just give the standard package? I'm missing something here.

Because if the standard package was much cheaper in Thailand there'd be massive pressure from other customers to get the same price, and lots of grey-market trade. Somehow crippling it, maybe making only Thai system menus avaiable (currently I believe all language versions use the same code and most of the same files), for instance, would make this a different product and a different price justifiable.

Re:why do it?

[HalfFlat]

You know, localized versions of Windows already are tied to a single language.

I couldn't believe it when I found out, but it's true. You can't take your English language version and give it a German locale for German OS messages. Nor can you take your Japanese version and get English messages. As far as I can tell, instead of maintaining a locale and message database, they maintain a separate version for each supported language.

That's just plain nuts. Unless of course internally at Microsoft it is just a big locale message database, and they include only those messages for a particular locale so as to maintain artificial price discrimination. But why would Microsoft want to do that, hmm?

Unfortunately, this will probably sell decently

[jbardell]

This is quite the desperate attempt by MS to obtain a larger share of the world OS market. Hopefully those in Bangkok will learn that there's an un-crippled, stable, fast operating system out there already, and it's FREE.

Re:Unfortunately, this will probably sell decently

[bobbagum]

Linux are pre-installed on those machines, that's why microsoft are now discounting.

Re:Unfortunately, this will probably sell decently

[marauder404]

Actually, I think this isn't so much a move against Linux as it is an attempt to stem piracy, which is huge in Thailand. If Windows is available at relatively low cost, more people will buy legal copies of it. Right now, it's just the pirated version that remains the practical choice for the vast majority.

While Thai-language Linux may be relatively well developed, all of the international versions of Windows are quite well done and have been for a while now. While features alone may allow for a user to switch to Linux in English-speaking countries, localization completeness is high on the list in other countries.

Thailand...

[Anonymous Coward]

...where the ILoveYou worm was named MeLoveYouLongTime

Re:Thailand...

[Anonymous Coward]

Hoo boy, I'll bet that had the guys at your Klan meeting rolling in the aisles!

Wait, it's 2004--you're not a "racist," you're "just not politically correct". Right?

Re:Thailand...

[sr180]

You got ripped off. You should have tried her sister, MeLoveYouLongLongTime.

Slightly Crippled?

[no longer myself]

Oh come on... With a headline like this, it's just too easy.

Slightly Crippled?
Yeah, it comes pre-installed with 14 viruses.

Slightly Crippled?
It's product activation is 30 days expired.

Slightly Crippled?
It's the latest version.

Slightly Crippled?
They wrote it using .NET

Slightly Crippled?
But it comes with a free Frogurt.

Damn... I could keep this up all night.

Thailand first, the world second

[CrackedButter]

You watch how fast that version leaves that country, home to some of the biggest software pirates on the planet! Everybody will want it just like everybody wants an Office lite as well.

Re:Thailand first, the world second

[tftp]

If this OS comes in Thai language only, then only people familiar with the language can use it. Thai is notoriously complex.

Re:Thailand first, the world second

[CrackedButter]

You would still need english since it is the most widely used language on the planet. However if they did only install the Thai language packs then it will deter some peoples from getting it. However i suspect a hack would sort that out before the first alpha is announced.

Re:Thailand first, the world second

[LostCluster]

It's highly likely that one of the tweaks they're making to this "light" version is to lock it to the Thai language. If you want to use English, you must upgrade to the full-price XP Home at whatever the local equal to US$99 is...

Re:Thailand first, the world second

[tftp]

I don't have non-English Windows myself, but I connected remotely to client's desktop in Taiwan, and everything was in Chinese, as far as I can tell (I don't read Chinese except a few glyphs.)

In GNU gettext package the code retains original strings, and gettext replaces them with translated ones on the fly. However in Windows no such luck. Resources (strings, dialogs, menus, icons and more) are attached to the executable, and to translate you attach the right set of resources to your program. Resources are ID'ed by numbers, so there are no english strings to look for.

The hack would be in ripping out the localized resources and replacing them with English ones from a stock Windows distribution. I don't know, though, if anyone can be bothered to do that...

Re:Thailand first, the world second

[tftp]

English distro of Windows in Korea is probably as easy to obtain as Korean Windows from Dell in USA :-)

I believe koreans are free to mail-order anything they want from USA, and I bet any Internet store would be ready and willing to sell them a box of Windows. But it does not mean that their local equivalent of Dell has English Windows preinstalled. Firstly, why would that OEM do that, and secondly they probably have a license only for Korean Windows.

Re:Jeez, this article's pretty scant on details.

[LostCluster]

It implies that the reason Microsoft is coming up with this "light" product is because US$99 is too expensive, so they need to come up with a way of slashing the price there without the rest of the world crying foul...

Wait for it!

[aztektum]

And now we present to you a hundred jokes about Windows already being crippled and a hundred more forshadowing jokes about Windows being crippled.

(Not too unlike this one)

What's the difference?

[pilot1]

Yes, I did RTFA, and it said nothing about what would be different between the "light" version and the normal version.

Is it going to have fewer M$ programs bundled with it or what? And if it is, what the hell isn't too tightly integrated for them to remove? Solitare and pinball?

Re:What's the difference?

[Pharmboy]

My guess is NO peer to peer networking allowed, instead of the "generous" allotment of 3 stations with Home. This way it wont get used in offices, just homes.

Re:What's the difference?

[confuse(issue)]

Solitare and pinball?

Hello? Remove solitaire?!?! Solitaires random number generator powers all the XP security features.

Re:What's the difference?

[jsse]

Yes, I did RTFA, and it said nothing about what would be different between the "light" version and the normal version.

Becase they're not going to take out any more functionalities, they'd just block them.

Do you realize that XP Home is just a couple of DLL away from XP pro? A complete guide to convert XP pro from XP home is out there.

It's more economical to block them rather than taking them away. :)

Re:What's the difference?

[psi42]

Maybe it will be ad powered? You know, ads in little bubble from the taskbar, ads on the desktop, ads in IE, ads on the BSOD, little button "reboot for more ads," "My Ads," C:\Ads, "Special Offers" desktop shortcut, Start-->Ads, "My Recent Ads," 100 page privacy policy (with ads). Nice bright flashy ads that move with the mouse pointer.

Re:What's the difference?

[bill_mcgonigle]

My guess is NO peer to peer networking allowed, instead of the "generous" allotment of 3 stations with Home.

Hey, a more secure version of Windows! :)

Re:What's the difference?

[CAIMLAS]

Hrm. personally, I suspect that the crippling would instead bundle -more- MS applications, and remove the ability to run things like, oh, something that competes with MS Publisher or MS Blah.

Re:What's the difference?

[dunstan]

The difference doesn't matter. Its only purpose is to allow MS to sell kosher XP licences much more cheaply in certain parts of the world.

Remember that the push by the US to reduce the amount of illegally copied software in many countries has had a damaging effect on Microsoft. The options have changed from:
a) illegal MS software - cheap and perfectly acceptable
b) licensed MS software - perfectly acceptable but expensive
c) free software - free/cheap and perfectly acceptable

to
a) illegal MS software - cheap but less acceptable than previously
b) licensed MS software - perfectly acceptable but expensive
c) free software - free/cheap and perfectly acceptable

So the push by the US government to reduce illegal copying will result in a loss of market share for MS (yes, they may get a few more properly licensed copies, but they'd rather have ubiquity on the desktop).

Now, MS clearly can't publicly say in those countries "We'd rather you ran illegal copies of Windows than Linux", so this is their attempt to provide a legitimate means of preventing their market share slipping away from illegal Windows to free software.

Dunstan

Re:What's the difference?

[TrancePhreak]

Sounds more like AOL OS ;)

Re:What's the difference?

[builderbob_nz]

Solitaire? I always thought it was Minesweeper... no wait, you must be right, Minesweeper seems to be too stable.

Give me a break

[Anonymous Coward]

If they think this will stop people from pirating in Thailand try again. That is like telling a pirate in the US that Windows XP Home is $200 but you can get a 'light' version for $40 or $50.

The pirates will still pirate! DUH

It happened with music. People bantered this whole "when the music companies get a realistic business model and stop charging highway robbery for 1 or 2 good songs yada yada and rest is filler". When iTunes and other services popped up "copyright infringement" (as they candidly call it) didn't stop or slow down. That was just the vocal point they argued for now they will find something else. Before it was fair use. Next it will be "I don't think artist x deserves a mansion so I can judge how much is enough for them" or some crud.

Re:Give me a break

[MavEtJu]

If they think this will stop people from pirating in Thailand try again. That is like telling a pirate in the US that Windows XP Home is $200 but you can get a 'light' version for $40 or $50.

The pirates will still pirate! DUH

Maybe the pirated version is cheaper than the pirated version of the normal Windows Xp...

Re:Give me a break

[AvantLegion]

>> When iTunes and other services popped up "copyright infringement" (as they candidly call it) didn't stop or slow down

1) A lot of people ARE using iTMS
2) iTMS still costs too much. 99 cents per song still comes out to $10-13 per album, only this time with no physical format. That's ridiculous. But I praise Apple fully because it's a start.

Thailand, not just Bangkok

[jbardell]

Make that Thailand, not just Bankok. That's what happens when you rush to post :)

Addiction

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

Customers of this new entry level version of Windows would be presented with a clear and easy upgrade path to both Windows XP Home or Windows XP Professional, he added.

In France, tobacco companies have started selling packs of cigarettes containing only 19 cigarettes instead of 20. A "crippled" pack of smokes in a sense. Why? so that those who can't afford full-size packs since the latest price rises (read: kids and teens) can buy the 19 cigarette pack and get hooked.

Sounds like Microsoft is doing exactly that with poor countries: snare customers then pull on the knot. "buy our cheapo limited software, then when you need more functionalities, it'll be a lot more expensive to ditch Microsoft and go for free-software than pay for the Microsoft upgrade".

But I guess it's business as usual, all companies do that sort of thing, not just Microsoft, I'm not shouting evil-M$ here. But I do hope the Thai government sees through the trap ...

Re:Addiction

[Dan East]

That makes absolutely no sense at all. So reducing the price by a whopping 5% makes them "affordable"? If they are reducing the price by more than 5% then it is cheaper per cigarette to buy the 19 pack instead of the 20 pack, so the 20 pack would go out of favor.

It would be more shrewd for them to sell a 20 pack that is subdivided into 4 mini-packs. That way a group of friends could all pitch in to by 20 cigarettes, and then they could divvy out the mini-packs of 5.

Dan East

Re:Addiction

[batkiwi]

Got any sort of link or proof?

If you'd have said they were selling 5 packs, I'd believe you, but a 19 pack is going to cose 95% as much as a 20 pack, not a make-or-break amount.

Re:Addiction

[jesterzog]

In France, tobacco companies have started selling packs of cigarettes containing only 19 cigarettes instead of 20. A "crippled" pack of smokes in a sense. Why? so that those who can't afford full-size packs since the latest price rises (read: kids and teens) can buy the 19 cigarette pack and get hooked.

Perhaps I'm going off on a tangent, but selling a pack that's only 5% smaller doesn't seem like much of an incentive on its own.

• How much less do these packs of 19 cigarettes actually cost; and
• If they're so much cheaper that it's worth buying them instead of getting one extra cigarette, then why isn't everyone buying them instead of the full pack?

Are there other marketing types of factors involved somehow?

Re:Addiction

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

That makes absolutely no sense at all. So reducing the price by a whopping 5% makes them "affordable"?

No, but it keeps the price of a pack under the psychological limit of EUR 5. Over that price, studies have shown that people are much more reluctant to buy.

Re:Addiction

[kju]

In germany some companies started to sell packs with 10 cigarettes, which seems to make much more sense than only leaving 1 cigarette out of 20.

Re:Addiction

[Tadghe]

I'm not the orig poster, but here's your links..

http://www.no-smoking.org/july03/07-25-03-2.html
note, however
"The law also prohibits sales of so-called "children's packs," which have less than 19 cigarettes and popular among youths because they are cheaper."

also
http://fr.news.globalink.org/248182.shtml
for more about the so called "Children's packs"

Re:Addiction

[bigHairyDog]

Erm...

It wasn't a ploy to get teenagers hooked on cheap fags - they didn't even cost any less.

They did that because 19 fags fit into a smaller packet. It was a marketing ploy to get the classy women on board ("reduce the unsightly bulge en votre handbag"). Didn't work very well if I recall correctly...

Re:Addiction

[line.at.infinity]

That reminds me..
Japan sells* mini cigarette packs called "Hope." Ten cigs for about a buck (140 yen).

http://www.jti.co.jp/News/Release/95/No19/No19.h tm l
http://www.jti.co.jp/JTI/tobaccobrand/HPF.html

*Well technically the gov't owns only 1/3 of the company (JT) now.

Re:Addiction

[garroo]

That's exactly what happened in Canada in the 80's. They started selling 15 packs and all my friends would buy them.

Also mentioned, sometimes we'd split a pack... here in Canada the internal portions of a pack are divided into 2 foil wrapped 10 packs.

20 years later, it cost me a kidney to cancer. Bastards.

Re:Addiction

[Reziac]

True of most things. Frex, for a long time around Los Angeles, the price break point for hard disks was $270. Anything at or below was a "good deal", while anything above was "too expensive".

However, unlike cigarettes and coffee, the HD price break point has gone down (it's now about $100) while the capacity went massively up. Conversely, that can of coffee that most people still perceive as "one pound" has shrunk to 13 ounces as the price has crept upward. A 50 lb. bag of dog food is now 40 lbs. Tuna is down from 7.25oz to 6oz. And so on. If this keeps up, human brains will have to be downsized to match. ;)

Re:Addiction

[Anonymous Coward]

In France, tobacco companies have started selling packs of cigarettes containing only 19 cigarettes instead of 20. A "crippled" pack of smokes in a sense. Why? so that those who can't afford full-size packs since the latest price rises (read: kids and teens) can buy the 19 cigarette pack and get hooked.

I believe you're referring to the 10 packs being introduced at the moment in Germany, also commonly known as "childrens' packs". Those were (allegedly) introduced to capture the market of those who cannot readily afford a full 20 pack. (Ie. teens, get them hooked on cigarettes while they're young, so it's less likely they'll be able to overcome the addiction later in their life.)

The reason for 19/20 cigarettes per pack is the vending machines -- you cannot refit all the vending machines to charge 3.20EUR/pack, but you can simply put one or two cigarettes less in one pack.

Regards, Felix. (smoking kreteks myself, can't stand regular cigarettes.)

Re:Addiction

[SoTuA]

FIVE EUROS?!?!?!

No wonder French exchange students that come here start chain-smoking right away. The highest-priced pack of cigarrettes you can get goes for like four dollars. And that price is for CUBAN, BLACK TOBACCO CIGARRETTES! (that means "luxury smokes" for you non-smokers :) You can get decent smokes for two bucks a 20-pack.

1500 baht...?

[jxliv7]

that's 36 US dollars and change.

so exactly what will be the "reduced functionality"?

i'd bet it will have something to do with hardware compatibility.

Re:1500 baht...?

[Neo-Rio-101]

That's what I was thinking, but few people seemed to have guessed it. Imagine Windows XP being able to run on Windows 9x hardware. (Which I assume is what most Thais currently have)

The missing feature in the "Light" version

[mooredav]

The End User License Agreement won't have a "disagree" option.

My question is...

[mishehu]

Does this mean they get rid of that obnoxious dog?
If so, maybe I'll study Thai... *grin*

Re:My question is...

[irokitt]

1. Start the Registry Editor

2. Go to HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\Curre ntVersion \Explorer\CabinetState\

3. Right-click an empty space in the right pane and select New > String Value

4. Name the new value Use Search Asst

5. Double-click this new value, and enter no as it's Value data

6. Close the registry editor

Re:My question is...

[0x0d0a]

Yes, isn't XP installation and configuration easy compared to Linux's?

Re:My question is...

[Token Limey]

It's quicker - and simpler - to click on "Change preferences" and then on "Without an animated screen character".

Re:My question is...

[irokitt]

But that wouldn't be geeky, now, would it?

Fighting Piracy For Dummies

[B2K3]

Software publishers in Thailand have begun to realize the huge popularity of pirated software in Thailand: the extreme price differential. You might be able to sell $100 software elsewhere, but when you are selling the $100 software a few feet away from someone selling a pirated copy for $5, what is the rational consumer going to do? Video game manufactures now produce Thai versions of games, complete with a Thai installation manual and even Thai ingame instructions, for only a a few dollars more than the street price of a pirated version. If someone isn't willing to pay 20 times more for the real version, perhaps they're willing to pay only 3 times more. Disclaimer: I was an American who I lived in Thailand for five years. Has anyone else gone shopping at Panthip Plaza?

Re:Fighting Piracy For Dummies

[gl4ss]

..actually what they have to realise is that when it's practically impossible for you to pay that 100$ is a substantial amount of your monthly income you're not that likely to spend it on software.

the current prices for them is like if microsoft was asking 3000$ for copy of windows to run on something that you already paid your arm, leg, lungs, both kidneys and liver for.

.

Re:Fighting Piracy For Dummies

[B2K3]

It's not just a matter of personal use; the majority of software used by Thai businesses is pirated.

Re:Fighting Piracy For Dummies

[foonf]

Microsoft doesn't care about piracy in Thailand or elsewhere, in fact it works largely to their benefit. If people who wouldn't be able to afford their software anyway are pirating it illegally, Microsoft doesn't lose any money, but they gain users and market share.

The point of this effort isn't to stop piracy, and Microsoft knows it won't. The problem is that the Thai government is setting up a program for the development of a very cheap computer, and they want to distribute a legitimate operating system with it. Since they weren't going to pay Microsoft's asking price, there was the potential of a very large number of computers being distributed without a Microsoft operating system. And even assuming most of the buyers replace the preinstalled OS (Linux, whatever) with a pirated copy of Windows, it still would have the potential of creating a substantial, new base of computer users not running Windows. This plan heads off that possibility. Whether they replace it with a pirated full version of XP or not, anyone who buys this thing is going to be using Windows, and that is what matters to Microsoft.

Re:Fighting Piracy For Dummies

[osgeek]

Yes, but I preferred to spend most of my time at Nana Plaza? :)

Re:Fighting Piracy For Dummies

[jfmiller]

Has anyone else gone shopping at Panthip Plaza?

If this is the 7 story high by 3 block wide shopping mall in Bangkok, then yes. I must admit to being a bit overwelmed my first couple of days in Thialand when I was there a couple of years ago, so I hope you will forgive me not rememebering all the names of all the places I went.

Anyway, what I remember as being most suprizing aside from the shire magnitude of the place, was the number of shops selling dvd and software for 50-100 Baht(1 to 2 USD). And these were not shady back ally shops, they were well established otherwise respectable buisnesses. It was either paradise or a nightmare depending on whether you are a content producer of consumer.

While, I agree that piracy is probably not the sole reason for MS to be putting out windows Lite, I has certianlly got to be a factor.

JFMILLER

Re:Fighting Piracy For Dummies

[hamishmorgan]

Farang go to Pantip Plaza for software, and Patpong Plaza for their um 'hardware' needs :p ...

Translation: Linux is winning there

[the_skywise]

Thailand appears to be pretty much going the Linux route so Microsoft wants to compete, but can't drop the prices of their software without violating their own pricing contracts with other nations? (I'm fuzzy on that part)

So they can remove a feature or two from Windows Home (my guess? Windows activation and automatic upgrading), call it crippled and then give it away to combat Linux.

Simply put...

[MoeMoe]

...slightly crippled version of Windows XP for Thailand.

In other words, it will take less time to hit BSOD...

Re:Simply put...

[NanoGator]

"In other words, it will take less time to hit BSOD... "

Tee hee giggle snort, never mind that BSODs are virtually non-existent in XP and 2K, they're still funneeeee!

Re:Simply put...

[daverabbitz]

This is simply Not true, I've been spending all morning trying to get Windows 2k working,
I turned my machine on in the morning BSOD, reboot, darn there's that BSOD again, Start linux, reformat C:, install Win2k, Disk error nuts, reinstall it again, another disk error, and no my hard-drive isn't broken it's just windows fscking my partition table. so Windows 2000 don't have BSOD must be I'm using a different W2k Professional to you.

Re:Simply put...

[Xabraxas]

Bull. Win2000 crashed on me all the time on my laptop. On top of that My brand spanking new installation of WinXP on a brand new computer BSODed on me twice within the first week that I had it. It crashes pretty much everyday. Suse doesn't have a problem running on that same computer so it's not the hardware. The only thing that has been changed on it is the installation of the drivers and Mozilla Firebird.

Re:Simply put...

[Rob Simpson]

No kidding. Programs crash, but the only time I've seen a blue screen was from a failing hard drive. I enjoy MS bashing as much as the next ./er, but credit where credit's due - they finally made Windows stable. As stable as the average Linux distro, I'd say - unless I'm the only one who has ever had to use xkill. At least, until XP gets infected or hacked because of it being laughably insecure (while I've never gotten a virus, I don't use Outlook or IE).

Re:Simply put...

[The Analog Kid]

Yeah I haven't seen the blue screen for years, I think the last time it blue screened was 2000(the year). As much as I hate to admit it 2k/XP are relatively stable. 98 was pretty stable too, until you started installing bad drivers.

Re:Simply put...

[Tony Hoyle]

XP tends not to bluescreen (still does, occasionally though) but it does freeze a lot.

It's also got a 'half freeze' mode where the mouse is still working etc. but you can't run any more apps... double clicking does nothing.

Oh and there's the fun when LSASS.EXE falls over ('I'm about to crash.. counting down... 10... 9... 8...')

Re:Simply put...

[cyt0plas]

Go to the Services Control Panel (under administrative tools), and go to the properties for the RPC service. Change the recovery options from "restart the computer" to "restart the service". Windows Update should fix it, if not you may want to run a test on your RAM.

Win95 core???

[Prof.Phreak]

It's possible to wring even less functionality out of Windows XP?

I guess they can make a special "win95 core" version of XP... sorta like a renamed WinME :-)

Re:Jeez, this article's pretty scant on details.

[Limburgher]

Reminds me of US pharmaceutical companies charging some countries more than others for some drugs. Like HIV drugs, for example.

Slightly crippled Windows

[vandelais]

only means that all of the solitaire games are unwinnable.

1500 baht doesn't buy much...

[LostCluster]

What this article is leaving out because it wasn't writen for a USA audience is that 1500 baht is roughly equal to US$35-40 depending on where exchange rates are.

Thailand's People PC project is a government effort to try to get the price of a PC to be affordable for the average person there. Microsoft's contribution to the project is its willingness to sell both Windows XP Home and Microsoft Office for 1500 baht... US$35-40. Uh oh, that's a drastically lower price then MS is charging the rest of the world, and MS doesn't like to have that kind of inconsistency.

So, that's why they're working on this "light" edition that will have a few things less than XP Home, and therefore be a different product that MS can price seperately.

Of course, the OSS folks can hop in here and point out that going with Linux would cost them 0 baht which converts to US$0... and that's what Microsoft's worried about. Better to get a little money than to risk getting none at all and letting Linux become the standard operating system in Thailand.

Re:1500 baht doesn't buy much...

[Richard_at_work]

Of course, the OSS folks can hop in here and point out that going with Linux would cost them 0 baht which converts to US$0... and that's what Microsoft's worried about. Better to get a little money than to risk getting none at all and letting Linux become the standard operating system in Thailand.

I follow your logic, but I do not agree with it. Yes, Linux off the shelf costs $0 (or the cost of a download, and a cd), but then that download needs to be installed, customised and configured correctly for the hardware and the class of user. Drivers need to be found or written for the hardware, and with the hardware manufacturers being hounded in thailand to reduce prices (to make systems affordable for an average consumer there), they arent going to react nicely to being told to spend more money producing new drivers. People need to be introduced to the system, and with the vast majority of people being the grandmother type with some knowledge of Windows, this isnt going to be as spectacularly easy as most people on here think it will be. Services need to be changed (how many 'pop this cd into the cd drive for cheap internet access' advertising larks is there for MS Windows? How successfull is it? Now how many do you see for a Mac or a Linux system?), and business interoperability needs to be conserved (what do you mean, I cant run the same software at home as I do at work?!).

Theres a shit load more that needs to be taken into consideration, above and beyond the off the shelf price for an OS. A few of those mentioned above are one off costs, but they are still costs which people have to decide to make, and they have little payback for the people making those decisions.

Re:1500 baht doesn't buy much...

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft is doing this because the first ICT Project PC's DID COME with Linux, and a whole "industry" was created by vendors offering to format the drive and reinstall a pirated copy of Windows and all applications for 500 Baht.

Microsoft will never sell any copies of their software to end users at their global prices around here. I'm highly paid by local standards and I only make slightly more than $600...

Re:1500 baht doesn't buy much...

[BigBadBri]

Bet you 1500 baht buys a weeks food for a decent sized family.

Of course Microsoft should price products according to the target market, but given the doctrine of first sale, and the principles of free trade, if you can get a product legitimately for 1500 baht in Thailand, then that same product will become available everywhere for the same price.

Now you can either have free trade, or you can have fair regional pricing.

Personally, I'll take Linux.

Re:1500 baht doesn't buy much...

[Dhalka226]

I agree with most of what you say, but this--

need to be introduced to the system, and with the vast majority of people being the grandmother type with some knowledge of Windows, this isnt going to be as spectacularly easy as most people on here think it will be.

--strikes me funny. I'm not attempting to troll or anything here, but how much knowledge of Windows (or ANY) OS does the average Thai have? If it is true that most Thai people still find the cost of a computer to be too high their experience might be nonexistant, even if the cost to grab XP illegal off the street is extremely low. An OS doesn't do much good without a computer to run it on.

The rest can certainly be problems. Linux on average doesn't seem to work as well out of the box as a Windows distribution (and yes, I know about things like Knoppix and they work alright), so that's something to take into account.

Then again all our programming jobs are going that way anyway. Maybe they'll make linux for the desktop truly boom. ;)

Re:1500 baht doesn't buy much...

[bendelo]

Perhaps Microsoft is hoping that users after 'trying out' XP Lite will want to upgrade to Home/Pro thus giving them more revenue.

Re:1500 baht doesn't buy much...

[Malcontent]

What amazes me is that the American corporations continue to pay through the nose for windows and office when they know full well that MS sells it in Thailand for $50.00.

What kind of a sucker are you if you pay $400.00 for something your neighbor bought for $50.00?

Re:1500 baht doesn't buy much...

[mobby_6kl]

>Linux would cost them 0 baht which converts to US$0..

No, that would convert to #DIVISION BY ZERO

This has NO chance of working

[dancingmad]

I can't speak for Thailand specifically, but I know it's the same as Bangladesh, when I was over there you could get the Longhorn betas pre-burned and with covers and the whole deal. And they cost next to nothing to boost. You could get them at malls, street vendors, Internet cafes. About the only draw back was that the CDs were so cheap they stop working in a few month or so, but that's plenty of time to use it.

Why would the average Thai pay for crippleware when they can already get XP for next to nothing?

Re:This has NO chance of working

[dancingmad]

Because it's legit crippleware. People are never going to pay for software they can't afford, but if some people pay for software they can afford, Microsoft makes more money. And some people, some companies will. In the end, Microsoft has another line of OS they can sell to third world countries for a song, more customers are locked in, and Microsoft wins.

I'll bite.

No they won't. There's no culture of buying legitimate copies over there (indeed, most of the Bangladeshi bootlegs came from Malaysia, Thailand, Singapore, et al). There's no nagging guilt, no RIAA swoop downs, no MPAA bleeding heart commercials. The average person over there either doesn't know or doesn't care that their software is copied. Believe me, for most people it's the least of their concerns.

Even assuming one could find the legit copies easily (which, with market economics at play, isn't easy), you'd have to be off your rocker to buy them.

Re:This has NO chance of working

[jfmiller]

There is exactly one consumer in Thailand that is under true presure to buy ligit software -- The Thai Government. They are starting a program of selling low cost hardware and need to put legal software on it or face ecconomic sanctions from the west. Can you immagin what the responce would be if a government announced that it was going to ignore international copyright law and sell low cost computers with unlicensed copies of XP?

JFMILLER

Re:This has NO chance of working

[druske]

"...Can you immagin what the responce would be if a government announced that it was going to ignore international copyright law and sell low cost computers with unlicensed copies of XP?"

Cheering and festivities on Slashdot?

Released when and where?

[Boiling_point_]

This new OS "will be released in limited, selected markets later this year". What's the bet one of the very first markets is the black market at Pantip Plaza??

In related news...

[stuffedmonkey]

...pirates in Thailand announced that they would continue to sell XP Pro from streetcarts for a dollar a disk.

Re:Thats great...

[Ianoo]

But that wouldn't be very crippled, would it...

Seriously, as a ardent Linux user and open source zealot, even I admit that Windows XP is a bit more user friendly for beginners. But removing more functionality than already has been removed in XP Home? Gnome and KDE will be more than a match for this setup, I'm sure.

As if Thailand cares anyway, who's going to pay $30 for Windows XP Neutered when you can go down to your local "store" and buy Windows 2003 Advanced Datacenter Server for a dollar?

Thinking Like Microsoft...

[codermotor]

I'll bet one of the first things to go is TCP/IP networking. The CLI interface could disappear. Crippled Multimedia support maybe? Or how about eliminating some of the configuration tools and options. Fewer drivers? Eye candy (what little there is now) including fonts, screen savers, wallpaper, event sounds, themes, etc. will probably disappear.

My guess is Microsoft wants to sell a locked down system where the only upgrade path to new features is through XP Home Edition.

Re:Thats great...

[LostCluster]

if crippled means, getting rid of internet explorer, the windows kernel, and everything else, and replacing it with, linux 2.6.2, gnome 2.4....

Bingo... Microsoft is lowering the price for Windows XP to this country because if they didn't, their government would start subsidizing Linux-based PCs. This is Microsoft's last chance to make sure that the standard PC there still runs Windows.

codenamed

[jjeffries]

thainy thim

Re:codenamed

[d8ta]

1. Microsoft XP Shack

2. Microsoft XP Shed

Possible differences

[venomix]

If you look at the differences between Xp Home edition and Xp professional, they are mainly in hardware and multiuser support. So, possibly, they may have removed the SMP support and set some kind of RAM/Hdd size limit. I guess they might have removed/decreased the multi user support too.

I'm just guessing, but it seems kind of possible anyway =)

Re:Possible differences

[Killjoy_NL]

Erhm.. no

The only thing ripped from professional is about 20 megabytes of networking stuff that normally only is usefull for companies

(spot the typo, guess I'm dutch)

Re:Possible differences

[Anonymous Coward]

ntfs compression
ntfs file permissions
share permissions

all this stuff is either missing or reduced in functionality in home

with xp home you leave your shares open to the entire network or you don't share them at all

Re:Possible differences

[Keeper]

with xp home you leave your shares open to the entire network or you don't share them at all ...and for a home network, that's a problem WHY?

Still pushing "innovation"

[Anonymous Coward]

The most "substantive" part (technically speaking) of the article was

Mr McBean added that the first release would essentially be XP Home edition with some reduced functionality, although for future versions there would be a chance of additional or incremental development and innovation.

So they are going to release XP Home and then add innovations to reduce the functionality to that of a "lite" version.

May be MS should buy the Thai people XPlite from www.litepc.com instead of spending money on additional innovation. :]

Tastes great ... less filling

[qoquaq]

Hurry ... hurry ... hurry ... Everyone ... step right up ... see the OS you have come to hate ... 50% less functionality than your competeing free operating system with 100% of the security holes you have come to love!

We will make it so easy to switch over ... no money down ...lock in forever.

Yes ... and over here the dog faced boy .... yes hurry hurry hurry!!!

This is the definition of monopoly

[nut]

Microsoft are going to spend money and time devaluing their product to sell it to people who can't afford it at their current price. This from a company that makes a profit of over $1 billion a quarter.

Re:This is the definition of monopoly

[bap]

That's not fair; many sellers engage in price discrimination, i.e. they sell essentially the same product to different groups based on each group's ability to pay. This is particularly common when marginal costs are low but sunk costs are high. DVDs are a good example, with "region codes" serving that sole purpose. University education is another nice one, with "scholarships" used to set radically different price points for different customers. Clothes are another classic example. Identical cars are often sold at dramatically different prices by changing nothing but the logo on the hood. The most familiar example is probably airplane seats; the airlines have raised price discrimination to a high art.

(This doesn't change the fact that Microsoft often engages in unethical business practices. Just not in this case, at least until them have the whole country locked in...)

Re:This is the definition of monopoly

[smithmc]

Microsoft are going to spend money and time devaluing their product to sell it to people who can't afford it at their current price. This from a company that makes a profit of over $1 billion a quarter

Gee, that sounds like sort of a nice thing for a monopoly to do. Abuse of a monopoly, it seems to me, would be more along the lines of "F*ck you. Pay me."

Re:This is the definition of monopoly

[0x0d0a]

It's not a nice thing. Price discrimination, barring side effects of said discrimination, provides the discriminator with more money.

Re:This is the definition of monopoly

[TrancePhreak]

from www.dict.org

From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913):

Monopoly \Mo*nop"o*ly\, n.; pl. Monopolies. [L. monopolium, Gr. ?, ?; mo`nos alone + ? to sell.]

1. The exclusive power, or privilege of selling a commodity; the exclusive power, right, or privilege of dealing in some article, or of trading in some market; sole command of the traffic in anything, however obtained; as, the proprietor of a patented article is given a monopoly of its sale for a limited time; chartered trading companies have sometimes had a monopoly of trade with remote regions; a combination of traders may get a monopoly of a particular product.

Re:This is the definition of monopoly

[Lethargio]

I am a total newb when it comes to this, but does it make any sense to spend money to dumb down a version of XP when they could just lower the price and save a whole lot in copyrights, developments, patents, and things? I don't see that as being an advantage to anyone, even microsoft. Could someone please tell me why they're doing this?

Re:This is the definition of monopoly

[jjsoh]

I don't see that as being an advantage to anyone, even microsoft. Could someone please tell me why they're doing this?

A: Why does a dog lick its balls?

(Sorry to answer a question with a question, but I'm sure you see where I'm going with this...)

Re:This is the definition of monopoly

[Lethargio]

Ok, nevermind: 1. If microsoft charged less for the same product in another country people would get pissed. 2. I'm not sure how this works, but the fewer things they have to translate, the better. I don't get the dog reference. To clean itself?

Brilliant Business!

[Sir0x0]

Or not. Microsoft is essentially spending extra money to develop a worse version of Windows they can sell cheaper. Instead of wasting no extra money, and selling Windows XP Home for cheaper to customers in Thailand. Then people would bulk order windows from Thailand to save costs? Microsoft has enough economic clout to blacklist anyone who tried selling cheap (legit) copies of Office from Thailand. All in all, I think its a terrible move by Microsoft, so selfish that it costs them extra.

Re:Jeez, this article's pretty scant on details.

[HawkPilot]

It doesn't even say why Microsoft is doing it: concerns about piracy? relative crappiness of Thai computers? price concerns?

My guess is that they are releasing a product with a price point that the market can bear. It kinda makes since economically. The alternative would be to release WinXP Home at the same relative prices that they are selling it for in the rest of the world. And have it not sell because it is too expensive based on the average earnings.

They could just sell XP Home at a reduced price but that would admit both the monopolistic practice of "same product - different price," depending on where you live, that movie studios and others have been accused of doing. Also, people would realize that the marginal cost of each addition copy sold of any software product is so low that the rest of the world will not stand for the prices that they are currently paying. After all, why would you want to pay $100 for a licensed copy of Win XP Home when you know that it is sold elsewhere for $10 and you are essentially paying for digital bits on a plastic disc that cost practically nothing to manufacture. Sure, the programmers have to get paid but doesn't $100 for your copy seem excessive? Therefore, avoid this scenerio and sell a crippled version. [My vote would be to "cripple" it by not including IE ]

I have not verified this, but I would imagine that computer hardware is generally cheaper in that part of the world and legal software makes up a higher percentage of TCO. This is probably just another factor.

Re:Translation: Linux is winning there

[farnz]

There's an EU anti-trust investigation ongoing into unfair practices by Microsoft. If MS can sell Windows and Office cheaply in Thailand, one of the EU's questions is likely to be "Why can't you do that here?"; this crippled version aims to do an end run around such ideas by giving an obvious answer.

Perhaps its Embedded XP

[nurb432]

They already have a 'lite' version, its what runs on PDA's...

Plus the 'embedded' product line...

Re:Perhaps its Embedded XP

[DrLZRDMN]

Embedded XP? Do you know how much 8 gigs of flash memory costs??!!?

Re:News?

[PygmySurfer]

Come to think of it, you get stale news on Slashdot but you don't pay for them, so it's like selling crap to the poor too. Only in this case, the price is right.

Unless you're a subscriber...

Re:Jeez, this article's pretty scant on details.

[niko9]

Not only that, but it's costing them more to do this; more programmers, debugging, testing etc.

The r&d costs for XP home and professional have long since been recouped.

--

Market segmentation and price descrimination

[dyfet]

One hallmark of a true monoply is price descrimination and market segmentation. This is where a monopoly charges different prices to different classes of users for reasons that do not reflect actual cost differences and often where the same product is sold in different forms to create artifical price points and artificial or arbitrary market seperations. The key to price discrimination is to exploit the fact that different users have a different willingness and ability to pay for essentially the same goods and services. As such I simply view this as further evidence of monopolistic behavior, as if further evidence is even nessisary.

Re:Market segmentation and price descrimination

[cookiepus]

Have you ever heard of the big mac index? the idea that different markets mustpay different prices for the same product is prety fundamental.

Re:Market segmentation and price descrimination

[CAIMLAS]

How is this different than,

the clothing industry?
the music industry?
the software industry as a whole?
or any number of other industries?

It isn't. Granted, there's some protectionism in there (clothing industry) so as to allow for such inflation, but that's largely how it sits. All the money floats to the top, too.

Re:Market segmentation and price descrimination

[cartermb]

Dude - I tought you wre smart untill you missspelled neccesary.

A little more on teh story

[randomErr]

Ars Technica has a little more on the story. Here's the text:

Microsoft is reportedly developing a "light" version of Windows XP to be aimed at developing markets. This is the word from the Bangkok Post (irritatingly long registration required), which is reporting that the origin of the project is Thailand's own program to aggressively seed homes with computers.

Thailand's People's PC project, initiated last year by the ICT Ministry, has been the genesis of a new operating system from Microsoft Corporation that is now under development, according to Microsoft Thailand Managing Director Andrew McBean. The new OS, as yet unnamed, but a new "light" addition to the Windows XP "family", will be released in limited, selected markets later this year and will offer reduced functionality when compared with Windows XP Professional and Home editions, he said.

Microsoft has to date been very protective of its pricing model, which aims at more or less parallel prices for its products across the globe. When People's PC was originally announced, Microsoft said that it would offer XP Home and Office Basic at an extremely reduced price, signaling the start of the company's willingness to adjust pricing on national levels. Now, however, it looks like the company is going to develop yet another consumer OS version. Why would the company spend additional resources developing an even-less functional version of Windows XP Home when they could simply just sell Windows XP Home at a reduced rate? The most likely explanation is piracy. In developing countries, piracy is a major problem, and the Redmond Giant is likely trying to avoid mass distribution of its fully functional OS by seeding the populace with a less functional, and probably less attractive OS.

Mr McBean added that the first release would essentially be XP Home edition with some reduced functionality, although for future versions there would be a chance of additional or incremental development and innovation. But he also pointed out that because of the complexity of an operating system, reducing functionality was not a simple process and every modification would have to be thoroughly tested.

A release date is not known for certain, but Microsoft Thailand is saying that this will happen, and not before SP2 for XP is released. It also remains unclear just where this product will be available. It's highly unlikely that it will every be available in the West. Rather, this project seems squarely aimed at recent efforts in Asia to build Linux-based solutions for emerging markets.

Re:A little more on teh story

[thebatlab]

That's not really a little more. It's practically the same thing, though slightly shorter, with altered wording in a few choice places.

For example, the 2nd last paragraph in your text is straight from the 3rd paragraph of the article from the Bangkok Post.

The only difference in yours really is the middle paragraph which basically puts out some unfounded conjecture.

Re:A little more on teh story

[thebatlab]

"from the 3rd paragraph"

from the 3rd last paragraph, I meant

Re:Jeez, this article's pretty scant on details.

[bobbagum]

The people's computer comes bundled with local distro of Linux, that's why. They're runnin scared, shitless. Majority of those who bought these machines will stay with linux, those who knows how to install a copy of XP will indeed find the pirated copies anyway.

This is about MS making more $$

[xorbe]

"Customers of this new entry level version of Windows would be presented with a clear and easy upgrade path to both Windows XP Home or Windows XP Professional, he added."

1) Customer buys XP-demo
2) Customer "forced" to upgrade to XP-home/pro at a later date
3) Profit!

Before you know it, Dell/HP/etc will be shipping only XP-demo, and end-suckers^Wusers will have to post-purchase the "real" thing.

Re:This is about MS making more $$

[Moderator]

Yeah, the full version costs a full $5 at Panthip Plaza in Krung Thep.

Developers...

[cwernli]

The new OS (...) will offer reduced functionality when compared with Windows XP. (...)

Development of the code is being done in the company's US headquarters in Redmond, Washington.

Lucky you who can enjoy backward development. Mortal beings like us have to stick up with the full functionality.

Great

[barenaked]

Great a slightly crippled version of XP for the slightly crippled people of Thailand. I mean really why is Microsoft trying so hard to cater to other countries while still lacking in the support as to completely modify an entire OS for this country.

Some other examples

[uptownguy]

Reminds me of US pharmaceutical companies charging some countries more than others for some drugs. Like HIV drugs, for example.

...or gas stations charging 10 cents more/gallon at the only downtown pump versus one of many in the suburbs.

...or books on the New York Times bestseller list being discounted by 15% at some bookstores but not others...

...or taxis and buses charging an additional "downtown zone" or "rush hour zone" rate for the same ride...

...or the vending machine at the movie theater charging you $2 for a 16 oz. coke when you could buy a 12 pack for less that double that...

...or the hip bar downtown charging $6 for a Heineken but the college bar where my brother lives sells beer for 75 cents on tap...

...or the cell phone company letting you make free calls on weekends but charging you 25 cents/minute for weekdays...

Yeah. Gosh. supply. Demand. Different markets. Variable pricing strategies. Absolutely shocking. We simply must create laws so that the government can set fair prices for everyone.

Re:Some other examples

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah. Gosh. supply. Demand. Different markets.

So wait, you mean that companies only get to call it a global marketplace when it benefits them?

I guess pure chaos would erupt and the world itself would shatter into trillions of little rocks if companies were forced to either pick a global market or a local market, and were forced to stick to it. None of the current "labor is a global market, we'll hire programmers from 3rd world countries and fire our own programmers" "Oh, but software is a local market. We'll make this area pay 1/100th what the other pays, and give them an inferior product to boot. But it will take 2 years to produce. Oh, and to make sure we can enforce this, we'll create a DMCA protected access control to make sure nobody pays extra to get a copy early and try to use it in the wrong zone, and to make sure that nobody in the 100x zone buys and uses a cheap copy."

But thats ok, after all its Good Old American Capitalism, and in the future we won't have to bother to elect people, since the corporations will just buy whoever they want into the presidency and congress (openly, instead of the current practice of giving money for some reason which can't really be explained but most certainly isn't outright bribery, oh no, giving money to elected people and expecting them to vote your way is never bribery). And just like always they'll declare a new tax cut for the 500 or so people with over $5billion income, and shift the burden onto the millions and millions of people making $10,000 a year, that is, if they're even lucky enough to manage to get a job, what with PhDs taught in US schools on US taxpayers' dimes who then move back to their home country in Umswanigosta going for $5000 a year.

But hey, companies doing whatever the hell they want is all ok with you.

Re:Some other examples

[uptownguy]

You wrote:

But hey, companies doing whatever the hell they want is all ok with you.

I think that companies doing whatever they want is foolish and we put limits on companies all the time. Environmental, ethical, social... You can only emit this much waste. You aren't allowed to sexually harass your employees. You have to hire people regardless of the color of their skin. We collectively choose to put limits on companies all the time. I just pointed out that we have -- and accept -- price differences all the time as a natural and basic consequence of a free market. So basic, in fact, to the workings of capitalism that we often ignore it. It shows up in cola prices and downtown zone bus fares. In fact, this same force is what drives powerful engines called "commodoties markets". In these black boxes, wealth can be invested, accumulate and magically GROW -- from nothing! It is pretty amazing stuff, really, when you start to understand it. But I digress. What I am trying to say is that that basic principle beind it all is this: You have something that you can make and someone else wants to buy -- you let the buyer and seller set their own price. You don't have a third party interfere.

You're worried that YOU will somehow get screwed? Don't get too worried about this. The market is very intelligent. Consumers in a higher priced market don't let themselves get "screwed over" for long. Soon people learn how to re-import those overpriced textbooks from the UK. They find a way around the barrier and lower their price in their market too. The overall price eventually finds an equilibrium. (Which it never actually does because other goods are always trying to dislodge it from its position in the market.)

if companies were forced to either pick a global market or a local market, and were forced to stick to it

What an arbitrary rule! Why? The market will always find a way around RULES if the market wants to. More to the point, though, you should really start to admit to yourself that there are a lot of people out there who mean it when they say that this is a global economy and they believe that this will continue to happen. Industry by industry, economy by economy, until the whole world catches up. Small electronic goods in Japan in the 60s and 70s. Semiconductors in South Korea in the 80s and 90s. Programming in India today. Huge American industries get outsourced to other countries, American workers -- eventually -- find other things to do. And the country that rides the boom is able to modernize in a very short span of time. Everyone benefits in the end. But of course if you happen to be in those sectors that get hit when they are getting it... it is painful to you. But let's not be intellectually dishonest and paint the globalization crowd as pure evil. Let's be honest enough to admit that they have a pretty strong case on their hands. It happens to suck for us because we are in IT and most of our jobs are going to end up overseas. But they aren't doing it to be evil. They are doing it because they want to see the whole world lifted up, just like you, and it just so happens that theirs is the only proven method to modernize the world...

But hey, your rant sounded really heart-felt and I bet it helps you get the ladies over beers on a Friday night. Keep it up, man!

Re:Some other examples

[Jaysyn]

...the college bar where my brother lives sells...

I'd say he has a problem...

Jaysyn

Re:Some other examples

[Bystander]

Yeah. Gosh. supply. Demand. Different markets. Variable pricing strategies. Absolutely shocking. We simply must create laws so that the government can set fair prices for everyone.

Sarcasm aside, the difference with HIV drugs is that laws are being used to eliminate the ability of competitors to offer alternative supplies of life-saving drugs. Drug companies enjoy a government-enabled monopoly through internationally recognized patent rights, which means that the government is helping to keep profits artificially high for patent holders versus what they would be in a true free market. To be consistent with a true free market, drugs should be freely distributed across national boundaries at the best price people could negotiate for themselves. Then there would be no need for the government to set fair prices.

So are you only against government-mandated price regulation when it doesn't hurt corporate profits? Or would you support the proposal that artificial government edicts which restrain free trade and reduce peoples choices should be ended?

Re:Some other examples

[Killswitch1968]

It's shocking how much senseless wrath is incurred by drug rhetoric. You think they would be heralded as modern saviors... at any rate.

Drugs are expense to DEVELOP (read: not produce). Millions and millions of dollars are poured into research in the hopes that a successful compound will result. I don't need to tell you that for every 1 drug company that is 'raking' in profits, there are 10 others that have come and vanished.
These patents are CRUCIAL if we wish to see more drugs in the future. I don't doubt that people have died because they couldn't afford drugs, but at least I recognize that the people that could afford them survived because of these companies. With these regulations all would suffer.

The free market economy is not only about profits, the losses are just as important.

Re:Some other examples

[Random Frequency]

drug companies spend more than 50% of their profits in advertising, not the development of new products.

(or they spend it in creative ways to take an existing patent, add a chemical so it process but produces the same thing, and enjoy another 20 years.

Re:Some other examples

[Bystander]

And whose fault is it that so many hundreds of millions of dollars are spent on ineffective, unneeded, or unprofitable drug lines that vitally needed medicines can be priced out of the reach of the people who need them? If you want to stop talking about rhetoric, let's discuss the actual breakdown of costs and examine ways that a workable balance of economic and social requirements can be met. That discussion is going on across the nation and around the globe today, and it does no good to try and dismiss one side of a very complex issue without considering some real issues.

One issue is the argument made by supporters of pharmaceutical companies that development costs of new drugs are enormous, and that high profit margins are needed to provide incentives for continued R&D. One should consider that high costs and guaranteed large profit margins means that companies have little incentive to reduce those costs. Similar to costs-plus contracts, the companies know that increased costs will be more than made up with increased prices and resulting revenues for successful products.

This brings up the issue of costs due to unsuccessful products. Instead of vague references to undocumented dollars and failed companies, I'll refer to figures in a paper found here. I recommend reading the report, not because I agree with any of its conclusions, but because it gives real numbers backed by referenced sources. Those numbers suggest that the often-stated costs to pharmaceutical companies to develop new drugs are overstated, and that risks are highly mitigated. If you have similarly documented figures backing your statements I would be happy to view them.

Finally, we could discuss how you know that patents are crucial to having effective drugs in the future. In another section of the report cited above, an NIH report reveals that publicly funded research provided a majority of the R&D studies behind the most commercially successful drugs in 1995. This does not include the long-term efforts of public agencies like NIH in researching treatment for diseases like cancer and AIDS. Using the FDA priority rating system for new drug approval applications from 1992-1999 it appears that only 22% of them represented important therapeutic gains, while the majority were for "me too" treatments.

There is of course much more than can be said here. Trying to separate out the facts from the opinions and misrepresentations is difficult, but the consequences of making the wrong choices will be reflected in their effects on the lives of real people.

Re:Some other examples

[Killswitch1968]

For every dollar spent on advertising, companies ensure that it will generate more than $1 in profits. This means that by advertising, more people are aware of their product and more lives are saved.

Re:Some other examples

[LurkerXXX]

or they spend it in creative ways to take an existing patent, add a chemical so it process but produces the same thing, and enjoy another 20 years

Even if they do this, the original process will still run out of it's patentable time period and be open for competitors to produce. The new process only makes a difference if it makes the product better (or cheaper for them to produce, giving them a competitive advantage).

It takes many millions of dollars to take a single drug through clinical trials and into production. Add in the numerous failures along the way of other drugs and you realize doing the research to get drugs to market is horrendously expensive.

Drug companies do need protection, in the form of limited patent time, to give them incentive to do the research. It may be too expensive for many people to by the drugs *today*, but the patents WILL expire, and from that point on, forever, the drugs become available to the masses relatively cheap.

It may seem terrible that people with a medical condition which needs treatment TODAY may have to pay a lot, but that price to society is more than offset by having the drug available for all future generations. Without the companies making money, the research may never be done (or at least might not be done till decades later).

Re:Some other examples

[Killswitch1968]

I don't have time to dig up a source at the moment, but the US produces the lion's share of new drugs. In countries that have price ceilings (Canada) drugs are rarely produced.

It seems we're at odds with our sources:
http://www.phrma.org/issues/intprop/
Of course this is from a pharmacy trade group, but then yours is a liberal group.

There's no question that Universities have research on their own. But this research is not as highly focused as the pharmaceutical companies. Scientists crave "knowledge for the sake of knowledge". Pharmaceutical companies get knowledge as a means to an end: a useful product. Once again I can't dig up a source but I'm sure the drugs per billions dollars invested is much greater for pharmacy companies than for biology research groups.

Re:Some other examples

[Bystander]

On your first point, I'll point you to this article that attempted to examine the effects of US-imposed drug price controls on overall global drug R&D spending. Note that the 15 largest pharmaceutical companies he studied were Pfizer, Merck & Co., AstraZeneca, Aventis, Bristol-Meyers Squibb, GlaxoWellcome, Pharmacia, Roche, Johnson & Johnson, American Home Products, Eli Lilly, SmithKline Beecham, Abbott Laboratories, Bayer, and Amgen. As is obvious from looking at the list and checking company websites, the pharmaceutical business is a global one. You can also note from the article (on page 23) that many European countries, including where a number of the top pharmaceutical companies are based, have drug price controls of one kind or another. It might be more accurate to say that U.S. consumers are the target market for the lion's share of new drugs.

The conclusion of the modeling study is that U.S. adoption of price controls equal to the average of industrialized European countries would result in lowered R&D spending overall, but that the decline could range in intensity from "a very small decline to a near complete cessation of R&D activity; the latter is, of course, an absurd conclusion". In other words, we probably shouldn't place much faith in any results from his model. The question of whether U.S. price controls would significantly cut R&D expenditures, or simply shift more of the burden for R&D to other global customers is beyond his model to answer.

On your second point, you gave the URL for the Pharmaceutical Researchers and Manufacturers of America site which contained a number of links. Not knowing exactly which article you wished to refer to, I'll simply choose the rebuttal article to this report by the Attorney General of the state of Minnesota, as they seem to clearly summarize the viewpoints of the pharmacy trade group and the opposing camp. Anyone interested in the subject should read both, hopefully with an open mind. If you would like to discuss any particular point, just let me know.

On the third point, I think your characterization of scientists is more of a caricature than a true picture. Scientists, whether publicly or privately funded, are people, who have normal human concerns and awareness of things around them. One thing basic research does is provide knowledge that makes the drug discovery phase more efficient. Discovery in finding the right compositions to pursue for new drugs is essential for making sure only the most promising approaches are followed up with more expensive development efforts and clinical trials. The pharmaceutical companies are often better suited for carrying on the later processes, but they heavily benefit from public research efforts that point them in the right direction. It's not just about total dollars spent, but also how much is saved by developing a proper scientific foundation for the search.

This also brings up the point that while the industry likes to brag about how much it costs to bring a new drug to market and how risky the prospects are for success, the truth is that the greatest development costs occur during the latest stages of product development (such as holding large clinical trials involving thousands of subjects). By the time decisions are made to hold such trials, the company must have already experienced enough success from earlier work to have a high degree of confidence in success. Most unsuccessful drugs are thus weeded out early, before huge expenditures are incurred in development. The better the basic science that is available, the more efficient this filtering process can be.

Re:Some other examples

[Bystander]

Except when the purpose of the advertisement is to convince a consumer to use Brand X, rather then Brand Y which has virtually the same effect. In this case the advertising dollars result in no additional lives being saved. Or perhaps it convinces the consumer to demand Brand X from their doctor over Generic Z, even though Generic Z could save them money which could be used in other ways to improve the quality of their lives.

Realistically viewing the types of drug advertisements seen today, which do you think is the more likely scenario, yours or mine?

Re:Some other examples

[lrucker]

"Reminds me of US pharmaceutical companies charging some countries more than others for some drugs. ..."

...or books on the New York Times bestseller list being discounted by 15% at some bookstores but not others...

I can go to the other bookstore (or any of the other examples you had) and nobody tries to stop me, but if I try bringing Canadian drugs into the US, it's illegal.

Depends on what's missing

[Valdrax]

None of the articles that I've read about this have said what functionality they're taking out of the system. For all we know, all the apps that we complain about (i.e. Explorer, Outlook, and Media Player) will be in the OS and other non-downloadable, core/system functionality will be removed (e.g. VPN, IPv6, and other networking protocols) or something else vexing but replaceable with third-party software.

In other words, it's perfectly possible that it will be both "anti-competitive" AND crippled.

Re:Depends on what's missing

[Reziac]

Sadly, the "streamlined" WinXP that Pharmboy and I long for may well be our own private fantasy, and as you say, the Thai version may well be a downgrade akin to how XP Home isn't quite up to XP Pro, only more so. Truly crippling it would do more for the "shit, if I want the damned thing to WORK at all, I'll have to upgrade" market.

However, given that the "reduced functionality" is supposed to be so M$ can "afford" to offer XP at a lower price, it may be that this reflects the cost of royalties for the various kitchen sinks they've shoveled in sideways (like the CD burning applet, which I gather is actually just one little part of Roxio5 -- and I'm sure Roxio charged M$ to use it).

Hopefully once it comes out, some kindly Thai will report back, so we can cease speculating. :)

[Shovelling kitchen sinks. What a horrible image!]

Re:Depends on what's missing

[cheekyboy]

na it will be just a logo change, and 1 registry value to 'disable' some features.

Same crap will get installed ;)

who would want it?

[Mark19960]

when you can pirate the 'full' version for less?
isnt that what they do there?
Micro$oft could GIVE the 'lite' version away and STILL be in the same position.

Easy How-To-Eat-Right OS Chart...

[Eric_Cartman_South_P]

Lard: Windows XP Media Edition

Full Fat: Windows XP Professional

Regular: Windows XP Home Edition

Lite: Windows XP Family Edition

Atkins Diet: Mac OS X

Fat Free: Linux

Anorexia: *BSD

Re:Easy How-To-Eat-Right OS Chart...

[Repugnant_Shit]

Deathly Thin: *BSD

Re:Easy How-To-Eat-Right OS Chart...

[ChaoticLimbs]

You forgot: Bulemia: Windows Me

Re:Jeez, this article's pretty scant on details.

[confuse(issue)]

It doesn't even say why Microsoft is doing it: concerns about piracy? relative crappiness of Thai computers? price concerns?

Which doesn't say it? The first post or the article? The article rather plainly states that the developing (that's developing countries not software developers) markets clearly outweigh the ESTABLISHED high end replacement markets. So the reason is good business (like MS or not, identifying a large potential market and catering to it is a good business model).

Re:Jeez, this article's pretty scant on details.

[Valdrax]

Well, that's because these drugs are very expensive to research and create. That money has to be repaid somehow, and African nations cry foul if the drug companies charge them the same amount that they charge the US and Europe and decide to buy reverse engineered Indian and South American knockoffs. So, the drug companies are basically forced to dump their original drugs on Africa for cheap while hiking prices in the better-off nations that are stuck actually respecting the drug companies' patent porfolios.

It's pretty much a lose-lose situation. ...Well, as much as any profitable business can be a lose-lose situation.

How do some get away with this?

[enosys]

How do some industries get away with this? For example the entertainment industry, especially with DVDs.

Red Herring

[UnknowingFool]

I read the article and it isn't very clear about what is being removed out of XP Lite. It is clear that it will be cheaper than XP Home. I'm sure the things that won't be removed are: IE, Media Player, maybe even MSN Explorer.

Maybe there won't be much at all removed, but MS needs to justify the lower price. Otherwise, if it offered Windows XP Home at dramatically lower prices, some governments may start asking the 64,000 question:

"Well, Bill when we said we couldn't afford XP Home at Z price and considered Linux, you say you can offer it at 1/3 Z price. If that was the case, why didn't you offer that before? Were you gouging us that much?"

Re:Red Herring

[0x0d0a]

Governments are not stupid. They are quite aware that Microsoft makes insane profits per copy sold.

On the other hand, the fact that Microsoft is willing to give in to negotiation is quite a big deal.

Note that anything Microsoft removes will tend to fragment the global Windows market, a plus for non-Windows OSes.

But it will COST more

[glenebob]

So, MS is spending a bunch of extra money to remove stuff and test the result, then charging the customer less for it.

This is just one reason I will NEVER understand marketing.

Wouldn't they be better off just selling the same thing everyone else gets, just at a discount?

Third-party apps

[SiMac]

My guess is they'll take out the ability to run third-party apps. Increases revenues and lock-in at the same time.

Wake up people!

[bobbagum]

The People's computer are state-subsidized machine that comes pre-loaded with localized linux, cheaply, about $200 Some local manufacture are also start to offer similar machine at the same price point-preloaded with linux as well. Yes, there's nothing to stop people from loading a pirated XP in these machines, but average person who just wants a computer won't care, these machines are fairly low-specced, geeks who will bother to get a pirated copy of windows to run won't bother with these machines, those that are, will be a minority. Microsoft have a unified pricing structure, if they lower the price of XP there, people in other places will start questioning why not here? Despite repeated request from the government there for lower-prized windows, they out right refuse not to; so they'll ship a crippled copy instead to prevent them having to lower price everywhere. Now, the average people will start to think, hmmm. for a couple of buck more, I can have the same "Windows" I use at work, non of these weird Linux... We're doomed. :)

Re:Wake up people!

[bobbagum]

for more, check this out http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/33963.html

What they did...

[gone.fishing]

The bundled XP Home with SP4 to cripple it!

Windows XP is already crippled

[Jason1729]

Any version of XP a consumer can legally get is already crippled beyond use. It has a huge bug called "product activation" which means you can not reinstall the product you supposedly bought without Microsoft's permission. This renders the product completely useless because you won't be able to re-install it in 5 or 10 years to access old data, or if somehow newer MS code is even worse.

Why is some other version with an insignificant additional crippiling newsworthy?

Jason
ProfQuotes

Re:Windows XP is already crippled

[Anonymous Coward]

Except that you are wrong. If you own they software, and are reinstalling it, you just need to ring up Microsoft for a new activation code.

Ever heard of FUD? Welcome to the Linux FUD machine. You are officially part of the Open Source Propaganda Network.

*cheering, waving of flags*

Re:Windows XP is already crippled

[Keeper]

Every sentence in your post is incorrect.

Any version of XP a consumer can legally get is already crippled beyond use. ...and people buy it and use it because it doesn't work...

It has a huge bug called "product activation" which means you can not reinstall the product you supposedly bought without Microsoft's permission.

Product activation isn't a "bug". A bug would be code that behaved contrary to the programmer's design, and I would submit that the product activation code was intentionally created and is working very much the way Microsoft intended.

It also does not mean you must get "permission" to reinstall. You can reinstall the product as much as you like. If you reinstall it on a new hardware within a few months of your original install, you have to make a 2 minute phone call.

(which I'm sure is a huge problem for most people, as the average person buys a new computer every week ... oh, wait, it's more on the order of years).

This renders the product completely useless because you won't be able to re-install it in 5 or 10 years to access old data, or if somehow newer MS code is even worse.

See last statement.

Re:Windows XP is already crippled

[MrAngryForNoReason]

This renders the product completely useless because you won't be able to re-install it in 5 or 10 years to access old data, or if somehow newer MS code is even worse.

See last statement.

Unless of course in 5 years Microsoft decide they aren't supporting XP anymore and shutdown the activation service. I am not saying they will do it, but they aren't normally too bothered about forcing customers to upgrade by ditching old products.

Re:Windows XP is already crippled

[Keeper]

Even if they did, your old copy of XP would still function and allow you to acces that 5 or 10 year old data.

Re:Windows XP is already crippled

[MrAngryForNoReason]

Unless you need to install it on new hardware, which would require you to activate it. If the Activation service is no longer in operation you won't be able to use it anymore.

Re:Windows XP is already crippled

[Keeper]

XP gives you 30 days to activate, after which it still functions in a somewhat crippled state.

Re:Windows XP is already crippled

[MrAngryForNoReason]

XP gives you 30 days to activate, after which it still functions in a somewhat crippled state.

Actually it is more an unusable state than a crippled one. It won't let you past the login screen unless you activate. Other Microsoft apps that use activation do go into a crippled mode after the 30 day period, normally most features are disabled like they ability to save in Office.

Mr McBean

[kasperd]

Am I the only person who accidentially read this as Mr Bean?

Questions?

[chunkwhite86]

Why is Microsoft doing this? Besides the obvious "Why don't they just use Linux?" suggestion, I'm puzzled why M$ would "develop" a stripped down Windows for just that market. If "crippled" means that it doesn't include a web browser or media player - I'm all for it. They should sell the product in other markets IMO.

Plus, in many developing nations like Thailand you can buy any software you want for about $1 or $1.50 per CD. Why would they pay more to get less?

I'll be interested to see if the product actually takes off there.

Well it`s certainly the wrong market...

[tit0.c]

...`cos if thailand is anything like venezuela,people get hooked and then just go out and get a pirated version for $2 out in the street.You can even see cops stopping and browsing all the pirated software/music/dvd`s etc. (and buying them of course.)

Re:Jeez, this article's pretty scant on details.

[Anonymous Coward]

there's 3 reasons:

1. Some countries (eg Canada) set a limit on the price of pills based on what manufacturing costs. This assumes that the RD, testing, and other setup costs are 0. Notice that there aren't any drug companies based on Canada that produce new drugs.
2. Some countries (eg the African ones) threaten to pass laws which ignore IP rights and legalize generics.
3. Some countries have lower incomes, standard of living, etc. By dropping the price within that country, overall revenue can be increased (lower price * more sales > higher price * fewer sales).

DOH

[anethema]

This is kind of like shareware that you have to pay for.

If I was Microsoft...

[darnok]

I'd use a carrot and stick approach.

Carrots:
- Offer better/more complete Thai language support in Win Lite.
- Offer it at low cost, as we now know will happen

Sticks:
- *Any* hardware upgrade results in needing to re-register with MS Thailand. More memory, a CPU upgrade; just keep re-registering every time. That way they can track usage that much better, and possibly get early warning of changes in usage trends.
- Possibly remove functionality to the point where Win Lite is essentially useless in corporate environments. Limit access to file servers, or network printers, or something similar; maybe time bomb it so you have X days to upgrade to the more expensive version once you start using "advanced" features
- Limit it to the point where it's essentially useless outside of Thailand. That shouldn't be hard given the uniqueness of Thai language

Re:Thats great...

[metlin]

Hmmm, for one, OEM Vendors and established dealers who cannot afford to sell pirated copies?

When they have to preload and bundle OSes with their hardware, a higher overhead would hurt them real bad. Which is why, they'd rather prefer something cheaper, even though it may not be the best alternative.

If you ask, how does it make a difference to MS? Can't they sell the same thing cheaper? Then the answer would be no, simply because they'd be pressurized by other vendors in the same way.

So the solution is to come up with an excuse for a price cut, and thats precisely what they're doing.

It does not matter whether or not its got features added/removed. What is crucial is the price cut, and how they've come up with it. And its a means of attracting more OEM vendors.

Pfft You Kids !

[ganhawk]

You kids are getting it too easy to cripple your windows. Back in my days I had to I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night,half an hour before I went to bed, eat a lump of cold poison, work twenty-nine hours a day hacking code, and pay microsoft for permission to hack code and cripple windows, and when we got home, our Dad would kill us, and dance about on our graves singing "Hallelujah."

Oh give me a motherfucking break....

[Kjella]

Why? so that those who can't afford full-size packs since the latest price rises (read: kids and teens) can buy the 19 cigarette pack and get hooked.

Try to pay at least some attention next time you're in the convienience store and you'll see pretty much every commodity works this way - those fishsticks, the glass of jam, the block of cheese.

They all reduce size. 1000g -> 900 -> 800 -> 750 -> 700 -> 600 -> 500 & new "big-pack" of 1000. Why? Because people pay a lot more attention to changes in price - changes in weight or volume go fairly unnoticed.

Of course in this case it's pretty obvious, since they're few and easily counted. But it's the same thing. People in general have a price they find "acceptable" for a pack of cigarettes, regardless of the price of the individual price per cigarette.

It's one of the small irrationalities of the mind, and the manufacturers are catering to it. To go from there to this being some directed attack on kids and teens is quite simply hogwash. There's more than enough legitimate complaints to make against them, without grasping for straws.

Kjella

Re:Oh give me a motherfucking break....

[jsebrech]

Because people pay a lot more attention to changes in price - changes in weight or volume go fairly unnoticed.

This is why it is now slowly becoming a legal requirement in EU countries to prominently display the price per weight unit next to the price per unit.

Internet explorer not only lacks tabs...

[Lord of the Fries]

...but has had the back button removed too.

MSFT must be scared

[rediguana]

This would set a nasty precident for MSFT, once one country has seen that MSFT may remove their global pricing, every country with a currency weaker than the USD will be clamouring for the same benefits. Guess its part of a larger trend away from US companies that need to earn in USD to survive. If you think about that, there are some nasty implications for the US ahead in international trade because of the relatively strong USD...

Re:Jeez, this article's pretty scant on details.

[neko9]

that is not Troll. more like +3, Redundant.

Re:Jeez, this article's pretty scant on details.

[Jaysyn]

[My vote would be to "cripple" it by not including IE ]

Ditto, they'd just have to include some way of updating it.

Jaysyn

EVERYONE uses this strategy

[Killswitch1968]

Examples:
1. Senior rates and student rates. They are poorer and can't afford things like park admission. This is a way to get them to pay up.
2. Coupons. Lower income people will now shop at your store. Rich people generally have better things to do with their time than clip coupons.

Microsoft is not special, and you don't need to be a monopoly to 'exploit' this strategy.

Re:EVERYONE uses this strategy

[secondsun]

Rich people are rich because they clip coupons. Microsoft is rich because they run an effective business (monopolies help this out and yes they are an illegal monopoly that broke the law).

It'll be the "read-only files" bug.

[nologin]

Yes, in this "light" version of Windows XP, they will change the code so that you will never be able to change the read-only attribute on any files or folders.

Yep, good ol Windows XP SP1 has a nice bug in it that doesn't allow you to remove the read-only attribute from a file. If you remove the attribute from the file, it will still be read-only unless you reboot the XP system.

Or maybe it is the cheapo version of Microsoft's built-in anti-virus measures (haha).

Wasn't inextricable integration part of MS defense

[saarbruck]

I seem to recall not so long ago Microsoft claiming it was impossible to remove components or offer any sort of modular form of Windows? Wasn't this one of the prime arguments that MS used in the antitrust trial? "No, your honor, we can't remove Internet Explorer. It just doesn't work that way." I really wish the defense witness had been allowed to demonstrate just how modular XP embedded is...

Two comments:

[Trailer Trash]

1. Less functionality than XP Home? Ouch!

2. I suppose it'll maintain backward compatibility with the common bugs and viruses...

This is probably to avoid "dumping"

[dcavanaugh]

Microsoft's problem in many parts of the world is that their US & Western European prices are dead-on-arrival. People who make $200/month are not about to cough up $199 for a copy of XP Pro. If they sell at a price that makes sense in Thailand, they get accused of "dumping". Piracy has little to do with the situation. Linux is available with no piracy required. With or without piracy, customers are not going to spend money they don't have.

If I were in charge of global marketing for Microsoft, I would create a country-specific version for certain target markets (like Thailand). It would be cosmetically "dumbed down" and priced to sell. Of course, any of the features that are not included in the base install can probably be downloaded from microsoft.com in about 30 seconds. You can't be accused of dumping if the product in question isn't sold anywhere else.

Re:This is probably to avoid "dumping"

[0x0d0a]

If they sell at a price that makes sense in Thailand, they get accused of "dumping".

That is ridiculous. "Dumping" is only an issue when:

a) One is selling below cost. The per-unit production cost of Windows is nominal. It would be *very* hard to argue that Microsoft is selling below cost.

b) The intent is to drive someone else out of the market. There is *one* provider of Windows, and that is Microsoft. Industrial-style economic terms just don't make sense here.

Re:This is probably to avoid "dumping"

[dcavanaugh]

"Dumping is only an issue when:
a) One is selling below cost. The per-unit production cost of Windows is nominal. It would be *very* hard to argue that Microsoft is selling below cost."

Dumping has nothing to do with selling below cost -- the basis for comparison is selling price in the producer's home market. The best quote I could find was written from the US import instead of US export point of view, but take a look at http://www.freetrade.org/pubs/articles/di-12-23-02 .htm where you will find: "Dumping is said to occur when an exporter's prices in the United States are lower than those it charges for similar merchandise in its home market."

"b) The intent is to drive someone else out of the market. There is *one* provider of Windows, and that is Microsoft. Industrial-style economic terms just don't make sense here."

Precisely. Microsoft is the only company that makes Windows, but they certainly are NOT the only company that makes an OS for x86. We all know who Microsoft wants to drive out of the market. Refer to the "Halloween memos". Software just like many other products that have a high development cost combined with nominal production cost.

Re:Thats great...

[hatrisc]

i am also an open source advocate. my comment was made in jest. obviously you didn't find it funny.

Microsoft's "old" Strategy.

[craznar]

"..., reducing functionality was not a simple process ...."

Maybe time for MS to stop putting so much effort into their products.

Upgrading

[oO Peeping Tom Oo]

Perhaps it doesn't allow one to upgrade to a newer version. They'll have to just buy the full version of "Longhorn Lite" or something alone those lines.....

Modularity

[ngyahloon]

But he also pointed out that because of the complexity of an operating system, reducing functionality was not a simple process and every modification would have to be thoroughly tested

I'm sure if Mr McBean uses anything else than Windows, he would know of such a thng called modularity

thats not possible

[geekoid]

won't it break the OS? I mean the told a judge that there OS couldn't be broke apart.

Mai Mai Mai Mai?

[JumperCable]

I don't have the tonal accents but the above sentence means "New wood doesn't burn, does it?

Re:Mai Mai Mai Mai?

[Dahan]

Tonal doesn't mean complex, it just means you have to learn to distinguish the tones. In general, Thai doesn't seem particularly complex to me. Straightforward grammar, and not too difficult to read. Spelling's a bit tricky (lots of consonants with the same sound; you have to know the correct one to use), but probably no worse than English (which is also a bit tricky--see Slashdot for examples :).

Using the soc.culture.thai transcription:

maai^ mai' mai" mai" - new wood doesn't burn.
maai^ mai' mai" mai+(often pronounced mai^) - does new wood burn?
mai+ mai' mai" mai" - new silk doesn't burn.
mai+ mai' mai" mai+(or mai^) - does new silk burn?

LitePC

[Anonymous Coward]

For those wishing for a reduced install, LitePC lets you 'uninstall' a great many things - IE, OE, Messenger, Windows Update, MSN Explorer, Media Player, etc.

Disclaimer - I am NOT a LitePC employee, just a user, who was impressed.

MS finally notices first time PC buyers !!!!

[openmtl]

What the hell ! - Mr McBean said that the ICT PC project had brought to Microsoft the reality and scope of the new market that first-time PC users around the world presented, and that the company had then looked at how it could best address this.

What exactly has MS been doing for the past 8 years if it wasn't to try and address the first-time PC market ! Mr McBean is really dishing out the marketting shit at that interview. I can almost envisage Redmond's finger up his arse wiggling it in lipsync.

How MS cripple their products is very strategic and solely to keep revenue intact by market segmentation. Its nothing to do with satisfying a new market segment.

WinXP home was crippled in subtle ways that a home user wouldn't even notice except if they expected to do certain things. The simple task of not being able to sync folders or join domains. The folder sync is really annoying for home users as it means that its harder to protect documents.

Something tells me that these two things were simple registry hacks and required very little testing to develope !

I see potential...

[vandan]

I think if you removed IE, Outlook Express, Active Desktop, Windows Media Player, and Digital Rights Management from Windows, it would be far LESS crippled, and actually MORE valuable.

Lite PC

[munwin99]

For those wishing for a reduced install, LitePC lets you 'uninstall' a great many things - IE, OE, Messenger, Windows Update, MSN Explorer, Media Player, etc. Disclaimer - I am NOT a LitePC employee, just a user, who was impressed.

HotJobs

[F7F7NoYes]

Did anyone else click on the bangkokpostjobs link just to see if anything was cookin? Hey my resume looks pretty damn good when it gets run through babelfish...

Soo...

[56ksucks]

..Basically they're just using Windows XP home edition

as opposed to...

[Drishmung]

If this is XP light, then by implication, the current XP is "XP dark". Hmmm. No surprises there, except that they've finally admitted it.

Re:as opposed to...

[p00ya]

I don't suppose you consider 'heavy' the more obvious antonym of 'light' in this context. Or even just 'non-light'.
My box isn't light, but it certainly isn't heavy compared to a car.

Re:as opposed to...

[Drishmung]

My point was rather to point out the humor of the less obvious antonym.

Re:"Slightly Crippled"

[eWarz]

1) It didn't have a compiler.

What do normal users need with a compiler? If you want one you can get one here.

2) It had no INTENDED remote access services such as FTPD or SSHD.

of course it didn't, that's what Windows Server 2003 is for.

3) I was unable to manipulate graphics.

*gasp* welcome to the world of closed source! Companies actually make MONEY here. You can do basic graphics manipulation using Paint, or you can download The Gimp of course, otherwise you should spring for a copy of Paint Shop Pro or Adobe Photoshop

4) I was unable to use my Network Card.

5) I was unable to optimally use my graphics card.

6) I was unable to optimally use any piece of hardware that didn't have Microsoft written on it.

What kind of bizarre obscure hardware where you using? Windows XP properly detects alot more hardware then linux does currently.

It takes for ever to do anything in Notepad as compared to Vi.

Then by all means, download vi and use it. Some people like working with this little thing called a Graphical User Interface.

8) I had practically no system logging to speak of.

Windows XP is a desktop OS, you can find all the logging you should ever care for at Start->Control Panel->Administrative Tools->Event viewer.

9) I was unable to use multiple desktops.

10) I was unable to entirely change the appearance of the GUI.

most display drivers come with desktop management software, or you can use Windows XP's quicklogin features to have multiple login sessions. Part of the reason Windows is so successful is that you CAN'T entirely change the GUI. Windows, at it's core, always looks like Windows, even with a skin applied.

11) I was unable to simply download much of the software needed to render Windows somewhat useful. Even though Gimp and OpenOffice run on Windows and GVIM, refer to number 4.

See my answer to number 4.

12) I kept getting "Access Denied" or something along the lines of insufficient permissions even though I believe I gave myself full rights over the system. On Windows 2000 this can be seen even if you are logged in as Administrator.

Wow, Microsoft prevents you from killing critical system processes! What a shock! Oh no! what ever shall we do?!? Seriously though, the only time i've ever gotten access denied is when a file is in use, or you try to kill a critical system process (except XP, which lets you)

13) I had to reboot fifteen times, and four hours later while windowsupdate.microsoft.com told me I needed nearly a GB of updates. Many of which could only be installed one at a time. 14) Then another two hours and multiple reboots becuase of installing device drivers (refer to number 6) and then updating those from the old drivers that were on old disgarded discs in the closet.

with the default install of XP, there are 50 mb worth of updates + sp1, which is another 30 or so, a far cry from the 1 gb you speak of.

15) I had next to nothing in regards to software and production....

Compared to what you get with the average Linux ISO image.... Windows, out of the box, is a pathetic quadriplegic whose wheel chair is missing a wheel.

Then, Microsoft goes and strips so much "functionality" from Windows XP to publicly admit it's "crippled"? What more can you take from it?

They never stripped functionality, it was never there to begin with. Windows XP is a desktop OS for every day users, not for supergeeks.

Disclaimer: I am not pro microsoft nor am i in any way being paid by microsoft for this comment. (On the contrary, i'm working on an open source Microsoft Windows NT Compatible Operating System called ReactOS The parent was a blatant troll and i was simply shedding some light on the truths.

Re:"Slightly Crippled"

[thebatlab]

1) Would you like them to have bundled their own? Or would you like to remember this generally is a home-user oriented OS.
2) Again, home user oriented and I believe server editions have these capabilities. I could be wrong.
3) Not sure exactly what you mean here. Image editing? Graphics programming? Buy/download a program to do it.
4) Get a better network card. Seriously. XP has great hardware support.
5) Vendors usually provide *their* own tools to toy with *their* hardware to make it "optimal".
6) I am unable to optimally understand what your problem is. My hardware all runs fine and I don't have Microsoft written all over any of it. Actually, my ms gamepad is my worst piece of hardware.
7) Would you like them to bundle Word?
8) Home users have enough that when an error happens it can get reported and if you view those error dumps, they actually have a lot of info in them. There are various logs to view in the Computer Management area of Administrative Tools.
9) Granted.
10) What is it with wanting complete customization but also wanting standards compliance? Ok, so you can't customize every single bit of it, but you can customize a reasonable amount. An amount that say....a home user would like? Power users can find those tools easily enough.
11) You're right. You can't get it all for free. Bummer. Some people need to live.
12) It's their problem you can't admin your machine?
13) I don't know about that. Get SP1 and that takes care of a lot and it's not a gig. It may be large but not that large.
14) Why would you install drivers and then....update from old drivers???
15) So....you had a system that you could then customize to your own working environment? Sounds ok to me.

"Then, Microsoft goes and strips so much "functionality" from Windows XP to publicly admit it's "crippled"?"

Well, I think "crippled" is the term everyone else is using. "Functionally insuperior" might have better marketing spin. Or "function impaired". Or maybe "functionally disabled". Or maybe "Windows ME".

Well what SHOULD they charge?

[Killswitch1968]

If they 'overcharge' their product, their exploiting their monopoly. If they charge market price, they are 'colluding'. If they undercharge they are using 'predatory pricing' to grab market share. Short of distributing free Mandrake CDs with the same gusto as AOL, I don't think MS can make a move that won't be criticized.

Re:Well what SHOULD they charge?

[ReallyQuietGuy]

yes, but this is MICROSOFT we are talking about. if they were to do those things, they probably ARE doing it for those reasons! :)

Woop woop -- Danger, danger, losing mindspace...

[zooblethorpe]

True --

But consider! MS is going for complete computing noobs here. Looking at the mailing lists, Linux can be befuddling for power users. It took me my own good time to figure some things out, no thanks to spotty documentation.

And therein lies the rub -- MS may suck donkey balls in a lot of ways, but they do a good job of holding noob hands with decent documentation. Unless and until some Linux distro can do the same, and still for that same magic price (and in Thai, Laotian, Swahili, what have you), I think this move by MS presents a genuine threat of incursion into undeveloped mental real estate.

crippled xp

[WA6FFV1927]

My xp is crippled so Microsoft does'nt have to send it to Thiland they can have mine.
No-I'm not a robot-wa6ffv is my ham radio call sign and 1927 is my year of birth so you see I'm an old Nerd.
My friends call me Al
BCingU have fun.

the real truth is that

[gearheadsmp]

Simply put:

MS Lawyer: Mr G, do well tell DoJ Windows cannot be seperated Internet Explorer?

BillG: Yes

Embedded VP: Do we allow vendors to pick which parts of the OS to include, such leaving out IE?
BillG: Yes

Dr. Evi: Ok, throw me a friggin' bone here. You say IE is inseperable, then you don't?

G: It's whatever I say it is f00!

They can't charge any price it seems

[Killswitch1968]

If they charge too much their exploiting their monopoly.
If they charge market price, they are 'colluding'.
If they undercharge they are using 'predatory pricing' to grab market share.

Short of distributing free Mandrake CDs with the same gusto as AOL, I don't think MS can make a move that won't be criticized.

counter?

[cyberbob2010]

"In an exclusive interview last week, Mr McBean said that the ICT PC project had brought to Microsoft the reality and scope of the new market that first-time PC users around the world presented, and that the company had then looked at how it could best address this."

heh, sounds like they just got tired of 3rd world countries and/or poorer countries turning to Linux for all of their needs and needed something to counter it. How many stories have we seen on here about South American countries, China, etc...

This is great!

[TimTurnip]

This would be perfect if they'd make the "lite" version incompatible with any version of any IRC client.

keke
ugh, not again
wut? u like me? kekekekekeke

Internet Cafe's

[osguru]

Internet cafe's are all the rage in Thailand. Nobody really owns PC's/laptops, and really can't to afford anyway. The only applications people really seem to use is IE, AIM, and word. The younger generation is into games, but that only requires directx these days.

Only the tourists load/use progams that require a fully functional Windows box. Me thinks this is MS's way of bridging the gap between CE & XP from a revenue point of view, since no one can afford CE based devices either.

They Took Out Minesweeper

[f0rt0r]

Oh the horror of it all. What is next? Solitaire is gone?

Smaller? I can see it now

[Tablizer]

Blue Icon of Death

I'm missing the point here.

[Theatetus]

They're paying a development team...

... to change an already-written OS...

... to make it less functional ...

... and sell it for less money.

Rather than just selling the original for less money. And people talk about open source business models being stupid...

What I don't understand...

[E_elven]

...Is how, if they have to create a new version (this means paying people to do it) they can sell it for less..:)

Say it real fast...

[zeroth]

They need a new name different from "WinXP" but related to it? How about we drop the "X" and get "WinP"?

Even better: Try mixing DLLs

[stm2]

I couldn't believe it when I found out, but it's true. You can't take your English language version and give it a German locale for German OS messages. Nor can you take your Japanese version and get English messages. As far as I can tell, instead of maintaining a locale and message database, they maintain a separate version for each supported language.

I'm a user (win and linux) from Argentina. I can tell you that if you install some dll from Spanish version into English one (or the other way around) you could break your system or leave it very unestable. The Windows version I use, is the English one, because the patchs are first released in English (some patchs take up to 2 weeks to appear in Spanish).
Another problem regarding i18n: MS doesn't sell English version in Argentina because the EULA should be in the local language (to be enforsable). I was told that by a MS seller, I am not sure it is true, but it sounds pretty logic.

wtf

[MoFoQ]

man...they make it easier and easier to mock microsoft.

Hell, even the pirated versions, which are subsequentially more functional than this "crippled" version, is still cheaper. Though it's Windows and I can't really recommend it for the security conscious.

Money troubles for M$

[cehbab]

It seems to me that Microsoft are going about this completely insane. They realize that Thai pc users have little money to spend on an Operating system. So Microsoft says okay, well spend MORE money in an attempt to bring you a cheaper lesser quality product than what we already offer. Why the fuck couldn't they just give a discount on their already available OS's ? why the need for another, if its just to make it cheaper, and it costs them a lot to do it, it seems like a better idea to cut your losses and sell XP home on the cheap :)

Re:"Slightly Crippled"

[0x0d0a]

11) You're right. You can't get it all for free. Bummer. Some people need to live.

For users for whom LaTeX and GIMP are acceptable, this is a significant concern. The actual cost of a legal Windows software setup, once one factors in the cost of software that is only available commercially for Windows, is exorbant (note that this is not necessarily Microsoft's fault, but it is a fact of life). For most users, it is probably multiple times the cost of their computer.

It's all in the registry

[superpulpsicle]

Like WinXP home and professional, there is a program out there (cough.. NTswitcher) which changes a couple registry settings and poof... home becomes identical to professional. As was the same with the windows 2000 series, I am pretty sure XP light is the same thing regardless of what M$ marketing saids.

Me so crashy

[SensitiveMale]

Me give you BSOD long time

Re:"Slightly Crippled"

[Anonymous Coward]

What kind of bizarre obscure hardware where you using? Windows XP properly detects alot more hardware then linux does currently.

Linux works on AMD Operons (and did 1 year ago) Microsoft? Linux runs on Alpha processors. Microsoft? Linux runs on MIPS processors. Microsoft? Linux runs on POWERPC processors.
Microsoft? Linux runs on POWERPC64 processors.
Microsoft? Linux runs on SPARC processors.
Microsoft? Linux runs on SPARC64 processors.
Microsoft? Linux runs on z900 processors.
Microsoft? Linux runs on 680x0 processors.
Microsoft? Linux runs on arm processors.
Microsoft? Linux runs on H8/300 processors.
Microsoft? Linux runs on cris processors.
Microsoft? Linux runs on v850 processors.
Microsoft?

Was that the hardware that you were talking about?

The Name is straight from "Life of Brian"

[WebMasterJoe]

Microsoft is doing this based on pressure from the Thailand's People's PC project, not to be confused with the People's PC project of Thailand, the People's Project for PC's for Thailand's People, or the Judean People's PC front.

I just don't understand why MS is spending money on creating a new version of Windows (and forking the development, in theory) which will cost less. If they are going to charge less for it, why not put less work into this version? Seems like MS would be better off just selling plain old Windows XP Home, and maybe just going with cheaper materials to ship it.

Mr McBean added that the first release would essentially be XP Home edition with some reduced functionality, although for future versions there would be a chance of additional or incremental development and innovation.

You sure as hell had better make some changes to the software for the next version! You can't just sell the same product in a new box and call it an upgrade! Well, I suppose it's better than AOL's claims that version x lets you connect to the internet faster than version (x-1). After all, 56kbps is - wait, no, I guess 56kbps is only 53kbps. Wow, all this computer stuff is a pain in the ass to keep track of.

Re:"Slightly Crippled"

[CherniyVolk]

What do normal users need with a compiler? If you want one you can get one here.

"get one here", oh and "get one there", oh look over there, there's a cuckoo singing in the tree. Look, I had a person a Linux CD, and another a Windows XP CD... Don't give me any of this "get one here" garbage, I'm talking about what you get when you install Windows XP.

of course it didn't, that's what Windows Server 2003 is for.

Why should I have to buy Windows Server 2003? We weren't talking about Windows Server 2003, so why did you even mention it? Unless, you're talking about the singing cuckoo bird again.

You can do basic graphics manipulation using Paint

"basic"!? What is your definition of "basic"? Don't be so naive, PhotoShop is a decent product and I would purchase it alongside Gimp if they had a port to Linux. I buy software that's worth buying, the problem is, Microsoft Paint doesn't do much of anything and is a joke. If viewing a file and screwing it up with a pencil mark is your idea of "basic" graphics editing you've got some perspective issues to deal with.

What kind of bizarre obscure hardware where you using? Windows XP properly detects alot more hardware then linux does currently.

Now, in reference to you implying I'm a troll, what we have here is the pot calling the prospective kettle black. I have an AMD motherboard with the nForce 2 chipset on it. Windows XP, out of the box, does not have a clue how to use the onboard NIC interface. but if you care, I can list alot of other hardware aswell.

Windows is so successful is that you CAN'T entirely change the GUI

This is bull, as there are plenty of examples demonstrating what your claiming is irrelevant to an Operating Systems prosperity.

Microsoft prevents you from killing critical system processes! What a shock! Oh no

Irony, see I saw it. To bad your sense of humor is but one way as you apparently haven't seen my own facetiousness.

Bottom line pal, if I'm root or administrator or whatever the computer better damn well do what I tell it to do and I don't care for a half-wit confirmation box. Do it, do it now. If I make a mistake, that's my ass. A lot of people write better with a pen, becuase they know that mistakes are less fogiven than with a pencil.

Windows XP is a desktop OS for every day users, not for supergeeks.

Here, I concur. So, why did you even argue? Windows XP out of the box has nowhere near the capabilities on many technologies as the typical RedHat CD or Mandrake CD.

It's of little use to argue here anyway... I have to remember this is /.

With Pantip Plaza, it doesn't matter

[Colonel Blimp]

You can buy any version of XP or any other software from MS for 100 baht per CD ($2.50). The piracy there is amazing, 5 floor building and its all pirated, any piece of software you need.

Re:With Pantip Plaza, it doesn't matter

[Jennifer E. Elaan]

100 baht sounds a little steep. I saw VCD's going for more like 30-40 when I was there. And this wasn't underground either. I wasn't entirely sure that the products were actually pirate, though, because DVD's were going for only a little more (~120 baht or so).

Still, it's true enough. The government doesn't seem to care at all about foreign copyrights. And these aren't underground operations either. This is all out for public display.

PS. $1US ~= 40 baht.

Re:With Pantip Plaza, it doesn't matter

[tomgohj]

100 to 135 Baht is about average in Thailand for software and 135 - 150 for DVDs.

As for underground they are partially underground. All the stuff they have there is in just the box or label. When you make an order they go off somewhere else to get it. They are scared of getting raided so they keep the actual disks off site.

Re:With Pantip Plaza, it doesn't matter

[Colonel Blimp]

The standard price is 100 baht for each CD of software. For a DVD, it ranges in price depending on if it is a just a copy of someone's film screening, or if it is a high quality 2 sided DVD 9 copy. Those usually go for 250 or so. Music CDs are cheaper. Last time I was at Pantip, product was not displayed in the open, you had to enter the kiosks and leaf through printouts of what they had, and order and come back 20 minutes or so later. Much better alternative is about a 10 minute walk down the same street to the nearly abandoned Hollywood center where you can buy and fly in a few minutes. I was in Phuket in Nov, and there was no software to be found, and the only decent DVD shop was inside a art gallery, hidden behind a large painting! (and the DVD's I bought from them didn't work!) I hate being ripped off by thiefs!

interesting

[CAIMLAS]

I wonder what exactly 'reduced functionality' will mean? No more 'security loopholes' allowing 'power users' to use machines as remote gateways? :P

Kidding aside, I wonder what exactly they plan on stripping out. Personally (as others here have mentioned as well), I'd love to see a version of XP, minus all the GUI tweaks, 'tools' that nobody uses (sans defrag), IE, WMP, and the like. I imagine that, if it's in the least bit operable, and it's available in English, it would see widespread pirating due to the suckyness of XP.

Then again, it might just be their way of saying it's going to have fully implimented DRM :P

They'll kill Messenger!

[Frodo420024]

What I expect them to take out:

• MSN Browser
• MSN Messenger
• Passport
• Windows Media player
• WMA support
• Internet Explorer
• Outlook Express
• Wordpad
• Notepad
• Sound recorder
• Automatic keyboard layout change
• CD-Recording feature

Not?

One could hope...

Point 12

[TiggsPanther]

I've noticed other people's flippant replies to this, but it is a big issue.

12) I kept getting "Access Denied" or something along the lines of insufficient permissions even though I believe I gave myself full rights over the system. On Windows 2000 this can be seen even if you are logged in as Administrator.

Administrator is supposed to be the Windows functional equivalent to root - so why the hell do I keep getting told "Insufficient Privelidgeds" when I'm running Admin?
I always though the idea of Superuser permissions was so that you could override the OS if you had to.

Tiggs

like Windows Media Player and iExplorer?

[jago25_98]

So things like Windows Media Player and iExplorer are removed.... or increased I wonder :)

Cheaper Version?

[HogynCymraeg]

In Thailand you can already get Windows XP full for the cost of a blank CD! Maybe this is the model they will use to make Windows cheaper than Linux?

Re:"Slightly Crippled"

[TrancePhreak]

He probably wants edlin

Do you really think....Re:But Wait...

[voss]

If Windows XP sold in the US for $50 a copy(In a dual full/upgrade version, people would be complaining about Windows nearly so much? I would say not...it would also greatly reduce piracy of Windows.

That should be impossible

[Flyboy Connor]

I thought Microsoft had argued in many court cases that removing anything from Windows would break it completely so it wouldn't work anymore? So how will they go about crippling their flagship?

Re:"Slightly Crippled"

[jsebrech]

Seriously though, the only time i've ever gotten access denied is when a file is in use, or you try to kill a critical system process (except XP, which lets you)

We could argue back and forwards about the critical process issue (who decides what is or isn't a critical process?). But the not allowing access to opened files is silly. Linux thanks to its inode-based filesystem doesn't have this. This allows in-place upgrading of libraries and applications (even while they are running), something which in windows has been the primary reason for requiring reboots. It also eliminates race conditions when replacing an old version of a file with a new one. Programs that have the old version open keep working on the old one, until the last program closes it, at which point it disappears into thin air.

You can also listen to recently downloaded mp3's, and sort them into the right directory at the same time, which is surprisingly handy.

Microsoft , Fear, and Fear itself

[JutMan]

This has nothing to do with cost at all. Microsoft is up against the wall in the far east. China has already given Bill the finger and his crapped his pants. He just lost a potential 1 Billion copies of Windows XP sales. If Thiland and then India is next there goes another Billion. I am sure India with it's large programming operations will still go with M$ but when they go home at night and fire up a Linux platform it is just less money for Mr. Gates. This is Microsoft running scared from a group of region of people who will not bow to Microsoft's whims and use there OS because he said to. Late

Already has been selling decently

[kiwimate]

Microsoft has actually been selling it since June 2003. Andrew McBean (MS Thailand's managing director, if you didn't RTFA) was, er, inaccurate.

BTW, this also neatly allows them to get around the one-price policy -- it's still a single price world-wide for XP, but a restricted version, well, that's different.

Re:Translation: Linux is winning there

[BgJonson79]

There's an EU anti-trust investigation ongoing into unfair practices by Microsoft. If MS can sell Windows and Office cheaply in Thailand, one of the EU's questions is likely to be "Why can't you do that here?"

Because it's what the market will bear?

Re:Microsoft Plan - Pirates as Marketers...

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Release the Crippled Windows XP
2. The pirates copy it like mad.
3. People use the pirate copy eventually upgrade to the full version of Windows XP, stolen or purchased - it doesn't matter.
4. Linux development, distribution, and adoption is slowed down - or crushed.
5. Now Microsoft is using Pirates as Marketers to crush the Linux competition, and protect the main product line. (i.e. free labor)
6. Keep selling more of the full WinXP to those who want to / are forced to - buy it.
7. Profit ! ! !

It follows the same MS logic as:
Paying fines for monopoly behavior by dumping tons of free product on schools and children... attempting to crush Apple and Linux by sealing the minds of children into the Windows Matrix forever and ever...

Go ahead and mod this up .

Re:Translation: Linux is winning there

[farnz]

The trouble with that answer is that the EU has already determined that Microsoft has acted anti-competitively; it now wants to know what penalties it should apply.

If MS chooses to sell software considerably cheaper in Thailand (taking into account that costs are lower out there), it massacres any argument they may have that suggests that Windows XP is fairly priced in the EU, thus opening up the concept of the EU fixing prices for MS in the realm of operating systems.

Re:Translation: Linux is winning there

[BgJonson79]

Good point. Though I have a question: how can somebody "price fix" their own product? I thought price fixing only applied to companies working together to keep prices high. I mean, you don't see them accusing Ferrarri of price fixing a Modena, right?

Re:Translation: Linux is winning there

[farnz]

Price fixing in this context is anti-competitive regional discrimination. To take your Ferrari example, if Ferrari charged USD15,000 for a Modena, and EUR500,000 for the same car in Europe, and had an effective monopoly on sports cars, and was acting in an anti-competitive manner, then the EU might consider limiting the price of a Modena in the EU.

In this case, the EU has found that Microsoft has an effective monopoly on preinstalled desktop computer operating systems (nearly everyone uses MS), and that they've abused that effective monopoly to try and block competitors in the media player market. All that's left is to determine a suitable punishment; given that US customers will be upset if they are paying much more than their British counterparts, and that OEM Windows is a major moneyspinner for them, MS cannot risk the EU drawing the conclusion that MS could afford to run its OEM OS business on smaller margins, and that that would be suitable punishment.

Careful - it's in THAI!

[cheros]

You're forgetting something: it's THAI Windows. In other words, even if you switch the language to English you'll find that the help file and menus are in Thai. And just to make it more exciting, the number of entries in the menu do NOT always match.

Been there (literally), done that. Much better idea to just kick the habit and install Linux ;-).

Windows: because other lemmings use it..

Re:"Slightly Crippled"

[eWarz]

You still fail to see the point. Windows doesn't come with a compiler because it's users don't NEED a compiler. Windows is a desktop OS, NOT a server OS, NOT a developer OS. Why do you think it's so successful? You think that if Microsoft actually wrote such a bad OS they'd be the biggest software company in the world? quit dreaming. Once again, i hate Microsoft, but they DAMN SURE know what they are doing.

Mod this up

[Kris Magnusson]

With a crippled product for Thailand, Microsoft is indeed differentiating its traditional market, which implies its monopoly power is slipping. Consequently this post should be modded +5, Insightful.

.......... kris

Windows lite preferred over Linux?!

[Mistshadow2k4]

What I find amusing is that they're so sure that these impoverished people will prefer their cut-rate Windows over Linux. Really now? Windows comes with practically nothing as it is; a calculator, paint, 4 little games, a cd player, WMP and the worst browser in existence. How much of that is going to be cut out? Same goes with their cut-rate Office.

Compare that to the average 2- or 3-cd distro of Linux, where you get open office, not one but several media apps, the gimp, at least 20 games, and a bunch of other programs, keeping in mind that most people in these countries can't afford even what we consider cheap software.

Sure, there's free software for Windows to download online, but most of it sucks next to what Linux-users take for granted (I know from experience), and what kind of internet connection will be available in these places anyway? A 3-cd distro like Mandrake can be downloaded even though it'll take a long time, and then passed around - or maybe someone from elsewhere can give a few copies to people there. After that, they don't need to be hunting for stuff online to download and acquiring a ton of spyware and viruses while doing so. Think about it - if they have Windows and don't download stuff, then about all their computer will be useful for is playing solitaire; assuming that's not one of the programs that gets cut out, of course.