Mazda Switches To USB Keys

kv9 writes "The new Mazda Sassou while being 'cool and promoting a positive state of mind' has a most important feature, that every geek will love. Instead of the classic key it uses a usb flash drive for starting up. The key can also be used to transfer things like driving instructions or music to the car's hard drive."

Comments

great, another point of failure

[hqm]

Now you don't have to lose your keys, just have to get them in salty water, or rub your feet on the carpet and touch them, or ....

Re:great, another point of failure

[lukewarmfusion]

I have a PNY Attache.

I've gone swimming in the lake with it in my bathing suit pocket, worn fuzzy sweaters on thick carpet, and accidentally slammed it against some concrete (swinging it on a cord when the cord broke).

The thing is really durable, and I'm certainly not gentle with it.

Still works beautifully. YMMV.

Re:great, another point of failure

[ari_j]

How about running over it with a grain truck when the ambient temperature is -40 (celsius or fahrenheit, your pick)? I can do that with my keys right now and they still work.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Anonymous Coward]

Bathing suit POCKETS? Never had a suit with pockets... is that for like putting rolls of pennies in?

Re:great, another point of failure

[marcantonio]

I'm sure they'll be a little more durable than the USB sticks we have now. I wonder, though, how you'll unlock the doors. I don't like the idea of someone being able to stick a USB key into my car door. Plus, people probably won't be ready to give up the mechanical for the electronic.

The music upload is really cool though...

Re:great, another point of failure

[Saven Marek]

...or take them to work. many many it workplaces ban the bringing of usb keys into the premises just as they do cell phones and ipods because of being a security risk.

so you can't drive this car to work people

Re:great, another point of failure

[javaxman]

I have a PNY Attache. I've gone swimming in the lake with it in my bathing suit pocket, worn fuzzy sweaters on thick carpet, and accidentally slammed it against some concrete (swinging it on a cord when the cord broke)

In contrast, I have two coworkers who both had their Lexmark USB memory sticks break after simple, relatively low-velocity drops from 3 feet or so...

Lexmark's quality issues asside, they should be able to engineer these keys tough enough that they'll stand up to most normal use... they won't be quite as sturdy as a simple bit of metal, though, and I'm not sure the actually make the car more secure. It's cute, more than anything... and I'm pretty sure the only new part is that it's a regular USB key... all sorts of cars have electronic starter keys of some form or another.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Anonymous Coward]

Come on idiot, swimming trunks come with pockets all the time.

Re:great, another point of failure

[jcr]

I'd be a bit more worried about the connector wearing out. If this thing breaks, you wouldn't be able to just call a locksmith.

-jcr

Re:great, another point of failure

[Anonymous Custard]

How about running over it with a grain truck when the ambient temperature is -40 (celsius or fahrenheit, your pick)? I can do that with my keys right now and they still work.

At -40 I'd be more worried about that little car even working than about crushing your keys.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Anonymous Coward]

surely you mean a roll of 50 cent pieces!

Re:great, another point of failure

[Anonymous Coward]

Does this happen a lot where you live?

Re:great, another point of failure

[Anonymous Coward]

Umm... plenty of people drive when it's -40 out.

There are many parts of the world where it isn't unusual for the morning temperature to be -40. It's not fun, but it's a fact of life.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Evil Adrian]

Why are you running over your keys? Are you stupid? Or are you just making a stupid argument for argument's sake?

Who has ever run over their keys, incidentally? Seems like the keys need to be IN THE CAR IN THE FIRST PLACE for the thing to even be running to run something over.

Your post angered me. Almost irrationally so. But I think I'm right.

Re:great, another point of failure

[MoonBuggy]

I guess that regular keys probably could survive that, but if it happened to mine I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they snapped or were bent out of shape to the extent that they didn't fit the lock.

Re:great, another point of failure

[over_exposed]

If I had mod points, they'd be yours. I know a lot of places who disallow things like that. If the key can hold music, it can hold "company secrets" and all sorts of nasty things you want to sneak past a company firewall.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Moofie]

I bet your car alarm remote doesn't fare so well.

Re:great, another point of failure

[dirkdidit]

Pfft, 40 below? Come on, that's like a nice day in January up here in North Dakota. They don't even call school off for that. It's gotta be closer to 50 or 60 below before people start to worry. Toss a block heater in it and it'll be good to go.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Anonymous Coward]

Seems like the keys need to be IN THE CAR IN THE FIRST PLACE for the thing to even be running to run something over.

He was talking about running over his car keys with a grain truck.

Your post angered me. Almost irrationally so. But I think I'm right.

The word "most" doesn't begin with a silent "al".

Re:great, another point of failure

[alan_dershowitz]

I just had an Attache die after it went through the washer and drier. It has a single weak point, a resistor or something is soldered onto one side of the circuit board. It detached in the wash, probably from drier heat I suppose. I was able to recover the files by having a friend copy my files to the hard drive while I carefully held the resistor back in place (thank God.)

Keys typically don't have problems going through the wash. I can't speak for all USB drives, but at least the Attache has a problem with this.

Re:great, another point of failure

[ari_j]

You may find this shocking, but this is a problem that occurs due to the existence and proximity of other vehicles. As to the likelihood of this happening, I can't say that it's high. Or even measurable. However, it does exist. Say that you drive up to your house and walk across your cement driveway to the front door, shivering and hurried due to the extreme cold. There is probably also some wind. Yes, wind. Lots of wind. So you're fighting the wind, the cold, and hypothermia by this point, and you are carrying in groceries, a briefcase, and your gym bag. Your keys fall onto the driveway. You live in a secluded spot (secluded mostly due to the climate, if you can imagine that) so your front door is never locked, and you don't need the keys to get inside. You don't even know you're missing them until after you put the groceries away, and by then someone else has pulled up onto the driveway in a truck, running over your keys in the process.

You're right that this is an excessively rare occurrence, but you are not right for the right reasons. You assume that either there is only one vehicle in all the world or that it requires stupidity to run over a car key. Neither assumption is valid, but your anger is. :)

Re:great, another point of failure

[Daniel Wood]

Yet half the computers have DVD burners. Gotta love it.

Re:great, another point of failure

[edwarddes]

car alarm remote? all i need for my truck is the single flat piece of metal that is the key

Re:great, another point of failure

[passthecrackpipe]

With my current car (a Mazda RX-8, incidentally) i have *never* ever used my key to unlock the door. I use my alarm fob for that.

Re:great, another point of failure

[ari_j]

Wow. There are officially four Nodaks on Slashdot. :)

Re:great, another point of failure

[ari_j]

I don't need that to open the door and start the engine, as I do the ignition/door key(s). Try pushing those little buttons with a wool mitten, anyhow. ;)

Re:great, another point of failure

[Alistar]

Uhh, he said run them over with a grain truck, Im assuming that he had dropped his keys and said grain truck ran over them. I mean I know other vehicles are a rarity, I mean there are only millions of other vehicles on the road, the probability of another vehicle running over keys must be astronomically low.

Re:great, another point of failure

[jellomizer]

Who has ever run over their keys, incidentally? Seems like the keys need to be IN THE CAR IN THE FIRST PLACE for the thing to even be running to run something over.

You work in a place with construction. You have your keys in your pocket but your hands a numb because of the cold. You try to put your car keys in your pocket but miss. They fall in the snow which muffles the sound. You get into the construction vehicle put it in reverse and you drive over your keys, after you have feeling in your hands maybe after 5 minutes you realize that you don't have your car keys so you start looking for them. You will walk in the tracks of the truck because it is easier walking and you happen to find the glint of your keys for your car you pick it up. And at the end of the day you put it in your car and it works.

I am sorry but your post angered me. Almost irrationally so. But I think I made a good counter argument.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Evil Adrian]

"Almost irrationally so" == the amount of my anger was almost irrational, but not quite. There is nothing wrong with the grammar or the idea presented there.

Try taking some classes at the Grammar Police Academy before you try issuing tickets, genius.

Re:great, another point of failure

[ari_j]

Yeah, most people up that way don't drive Mazdas. They drive grain trucks, hence the situation I described. :)

Re:great, another point of failure

[Moofie]

How nice for you. Your objection is still silly. Those of us who can manage to not drive trucks over our keys in the dead of winter will still be able to start our cars if this concept (you know, like in a "concept car"?) ever comes close to reality.

Re:great, another point of failure

[ikkonoishi]

I once had a usb stick go bad just due to me plugging it in the socket.

To this day my computer thinks I have four usb mass storage devices plugged in. I think it burned its signature into the usb bus.

Re:great, another point of failure

[ndansmith]

The real problem with USB flash drives is that after surviving all that abuse, they can still crap out for God knows what reason.

Re:great, another point of failure

[nocomment]

So that's 100% of ND reads /.? ;)

Re:great, another point of failure

[ari_j]

No, thank goodness. I moved away from that madness.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Moofie]

My mittens fold back off of my digits when I need dexterity. Your mittens are clearly inferior. : )

Re:great, another point of failure

[halr9000]

So perhaps it would wake up the eyes of your employer and their draconian policies? Just a thought. I know this won't work for every company (like banks), but if I were the CIO of a company, I'd just make HR policies with strict punishments and train the employees on those policies. Then you can treat your employees like adults instead of children.

Re:great, another point of failure

[robertjw]

Don't think he was attacking your grammar, he was insinuating that you were irrational, genius.

Re:great, another point of failure

[dillpick6]

The key can also be used to transfer things like driving instructions or music to the car's hard drive. As well as viruses! And how hard is it to make a copy of your key? This also means a great deal more training for computer illiterate valets...

Re:great, another point of failure

[Evil Adrian]

Your sarcastic reply fails to account for the simple fact that most people never have their keys run over by another vehicle, because most people aren't stupid enough to drop their keys somewhere where someone else is going to run them over. How many people do you personally know that have ever had their keys run over? I bet you can't even find statistics on this sort of thing because it almost never happens.

I think it's obvious that the five people EVER that have had their keys run over are just going to have to suck it up and deal with the whole USB car key thing.

Re:great, another point of failure

[uncqual]

so your front door is never locked

Are you nuts? :) Here in Los Angeles we lock our car doors when we go inside to pay for gas (fortunately, pretty rarely needed nowadays) - the thought of leaving the front door to the house unlocked is difficult to grok!

Re:great, another point of failure

[jburgess]

Maybe if it wasn't also against the rules to bring in blank media, then your point would be a good one. Unfortunately, in my office (Air Force Intelligence), it is.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Jozer99]

You haven't seen the study where they tried to destroy flash chips. They failed, even after nailing them to a tree though the chip. These things are durable. Plus, since they are usb flash drives, they will probably be less expensive than the electronic keys many cars use now. My only worry is someone will find a bit for bit copy utility that can dulplicate keys. Plus, USB ports don't seem durable enough to me to be plugged and unplugged 5 times a day for ten years.

Re:great, another point of failure

[c_woolley]

You ran your keys over with your grain truck....you idiot. Am I also to assume that these keys weren't the same used to turn your grain truck on?...idiot.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Anonymous Coward]

if I were the CIO of a company, I'd just make HR policies with strict punishments and train the employees on those policies.

And you'd be the quickest to lose data to a competitor.

Re:great, another point of failure

[ivan256]

Such workplaces will have to come to grips with the fact that they'll need to trust their employees instead of enforceing draconian policies. After all, they need to trust their employees anyway, since policies like that are impossible to enforce, and any determined employee will find a simple way around the policy anyway.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Skuld-Chan]

Who's going to be driving a car like that in places where it gets to -40 deg celsius or fahrenheit (your pick) and allows their keys to get run over by passing trucks.

Come to think of it - I've never had my keys run over by anything anywhere...

Re:great, another point of failure

[BinaryOpty]

Is the "celsius or fahrenheit, your pick" a reference to the fact it wouldn't matter how cold it is outside for keys, or that -40 is the same temperature in both scales?

Re:great, another point of failure

[Evil Adrian]

Touche!

Too bad he's wrong.

Re:great, another point of failure

[ari_j]

I don't think he really meant that you're a genius, genius. ;-D

Re:great, another point of failure

[jedidiah]

In my bathing suit pockets I keep my entire regular keyring (one pocket) and a small mini-wallet that has my ID, amusement park passes and a small amount of money.

          None of it will be destroyed by water so there is no point in leaving it behind.

Re:great, another point of failure

[ari_j]

Your mittens leak. ;) I have mittens like that, but only for hunting, and I wear a pair of gloves beneath them. But that's not enough for -40 temperatures - hunting season is in November when it stays above -20. I think we can agree that both of us have inferior fingers, which should be able to regulate their temperature so as to obviate the need for mittens in the first place. ;)

Re:great, another point of failure

[ari_j]

Actually, it's 4/3 = 133%. I am out of the state.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Overzeetop]

Hope you never need to work in a classified environment. In that case its not a company thing, but a national security thing. And, no, humans as a group cannot be trusted.

Re:great, another point of failure

[norton_I]

I have had my key snap off in the ignition in cold weather. (like -10 or so). A key/lock without moving parts is not as subject to that failure mode which is almost certainly higher than "running over your keys with a cement truck" -- which might also bend a normal key to the point it won't work, especially if it is on a keychain and unable to lie flat.

Re:great, another point of failure

[ari_j]

When it's cold enough that keys have a 10% chance of breaking off in the deadbolt because the bolt is stuck and the key is brittle, you don't take chances on your front house door. Besides, what self-respecting burglar is going miles between houses to steal stuff when it's -40? He's at home watching his stolen TV and staying warm, drinking his stolen Swiss Miss. ;)

Oh, I almost forgot to answer your question. Yes. We're nuts.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Anonymous Coward]

WOOSH!!

Re:great, another point of failure

[TeflonTB]

or you could just leave them with the receptionist...
My work place does not allow pretty much every electronic device, and with good reason. There are workplaces where it is absolutly required. This practice is not drakonian it is simply effective. Its not a matter of treating people like children its a matter of security and not always just corporate security...

Is a usb key neccessary, no. Should it even be considered, nope.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Leebert]

Now you don't have to lose your keys, just have to get them in salty water, or rub your feet on the carpet and touch them, or ....

Actually, I was thinking the opposite. Great, finally something I can copy without having to go to the dealer to pay $100 for a new key to replace the one I've lost.

Re:great, another point of failure

[ari_j]

I've lost keys to the deadbolt but never to the ignition. But I do agree that the likelihood of running your keys over with a truck is less than that of breaking one off in the ignition, so - what's the secure and reliable solution? USB just doesn't seem to be it, to me.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Thud457]

Yeah, but have you ever driven the candle truck over your speaker bracelet? Man, what a disaster that was!

Re:great, another point of failure

[Anonymous Coward]

Brint: [about Hansel] Have you seen the way he does his hair?

Meekus: Or like, doesn't, it's like, *ex-squeeze* me, but have you ever heard of styling gel?

Brint: I'm sure Hansel's heard of styling gel, he's a male model.

Meekus: Uh, earth to Brint, I was making a joke.

Brint: Uh, Earth to Meekus, duh *I knew that*!

Meekus: Uh earth to Brint, I don't think you did because you were all like 'well I'm suure Hansels heard of styling gel' like you DIDN'T know it was a joke!

Brint: Earth to Meekus, I knew it was a joke ok, I just didn't get it at first!

Meekus: Earth to Brint...

Re:great, another point of failure

[Moofie]

Stupid fingers. Stupid mittens.

Re:great, another point of failure

[halr9000]

Hope you never need to work in a classified environment.

Me too. :)

I do know more about IT security than I let on, but as I said, where possible, treat your employees like adults and they will act like them.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Mr. Jaggers]

Yeah, and god forbid you drop them in a snowbank... first of all, gloves do NOTHING at 55 below with wind, and second, nothing makes them worse than nothing like snow caked on while you dig through the snowbank, give up, and pull your spare key out of your wallet.

Then again, people who've never lived with cold winters never seem to understand how one locks themselves out of a running car...

At least with keys, you can come back later and dig it up with some shovels, a couple of buddies, and a thermos of coffee.

I can't even imagine how pissed off I'd be if losing a stupid little usb flash stick in a freakin' snowbank somehow got between me and the heated seats in my Subie!

Re:great, another point of failure

[Anonymous Coward]

Extreme cold, as I am sure you are aware, can screw things up in more ways than we can easily plan for.

Just this winter, I had to take a hair drier to the ignition lock of a car which had frozen up by being outside in the cold overnight (MN, not -40 material). A usb lock would not have had this problem. I am sure it would have had a good chance of having a different problem though.

In -40, if you drop your keys, then I expect that they would have a pretty good chance of becoming brittle enough to snap in a stiff (icy) lock. A usb drive would probably be ok.

As for running over it with a grain truck, I may be wrong here, but I suspect it is best avoided with most car starting devices - old or new.

I am sure that Murphy will find ways to screw this up in even the mildest weather, but it would be nice to be able to copy a few keys myself, so if I do lose one (probably the greatest risk), I can just copy myself another, rather than having to go to the dealer.

Having one key for all of the keys in the house would be nice. Interesting to see if they have a way to acheive that securely. Mind you, the current arrangement in our house - have all of the keys on the table by the door is not exactly a model of security either. Oh, security v usability.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Anonymous Coward]

Kind of reminds me of a Sekonda commercial (an inexpensive Russian watch which, despite what you might think, was actually fairly high quality) that ran in Britain during the early eighties.

They showed two watches, an expensive competitor, and a Sekonda, on the ground, and a large steamroller heading towards them both. The voice over was talking about the fact that "the watch on the right" matches {big list of features of} "the watch on the left". "So what's the real difference?"

The roller goes over, and you're supposed to expect the "watch on the right" to have survived or something indicating its unparalled strength. Nah. Both are smashed to bits. Voice over: "The watch on the left costs ten times as much as the watch on the right"

Re:great, another point of failure

[FunkSoulBrother]

5 :-P

Grand Forks representin'

Re:great, another point of failure

[smbarbour]

Simple solution (maybe not so good for the equipment though), fill all the USB ports with silicone caulk.

It works well enough to keep people from adding water to the coffee machine that connected to the building water supply.

Re:great, another point of failure

[zippthorne]

I ran a lexmark jumpdrive through a washer-dryer cycle. It still works fine as well. I would've thought the detergent and agitation would've been quite damaging.

Re:great, another point of failure

[93,000]

six. (though I did hop to the other side of the river a year or so ago). But hell, I put 29 years in -- I still count.

Re:great, another point of failure

[nofx_3]

Here in cali we think its cold when it gets down to 60 above zero.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Jack9]

Short answer: USB drives aren't durable enough.

After about 2000 "removals" you typically lose your drive from interface wear of one kind or another. That's with proper use, albeit heavy usage. Using your car multiple times a day qualifies as heavy usage. I have only bought 4 drives, but this "idea" isn't gonna fail insomuch as it's not even going to have a chance to be a fad.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Frank T. Lofaro Jr.]

Yet you're allowed to post to Slashdot.

Re:great, another point of failure

[dirkdidit]

Yeah, that sounds about right. There are a couple more, but they haven't been around for a while. Bismarck up in dis biatch.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Anonymous Coward]

Sometimes logic is so fubar'd, it's not even worth coming up with a witty reply...

Re:great, another point of failure

[Frank T. Lofaro Jr.]

Watermark your data, and if/when something gets stolen, sue them and use discovery processes get at their copy of what was stolen, verify the watermark, and get a windfall judgement in your favor, including back profits, punitive damages, etc.

Re:great, another point of failure

[KinkifyTheNation]

6, ha, born in GF :P

Re:great, another point of failure

[westlake]

Now you don't have to lose your keys

I don't understand this geek obsession with replacing simple mechanical solutions that are known to work.

Your set of keys provides protection against the toddler and the drunk. You want opening the door and starting the engine to remain just difficult enough to exclude the incompetent.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Frank T. Lofaro Jr.]

If indeed they are being so strict for a good reason (extremely valuable corporate or national security information), I sure hope they are using scanning and electronic countermeasures to prevent stuff being smuggled in or out.

Such as strong magnetic fields and electric fields and scanners, etc.

Re:great, another point of failure

[twiddlingbits]

Sure you can, you just have to leave the keys in the car so it can be easily stolen while the guards are checking someone's gym bag. I do however wonder if a) you can accidentally erase your key and the car won't start or b) you introduce a car virus and something really bad happens to the car.

Re:great, another point of failure

[magarity]

Say that you drive up to your house and walk across your cement driveway to the front door, shivering and hurried due to the extreme cold
 
Sounds like you need to look into this amazing new invention called the "attached garage".

Re:great, another point of failure

[COMON$]

I have had about 4 usb keys from Lexmark. Bought them for their durability. They have been dropped, stepped on and all of them been through the dryer a couple times (I didnt say I wasnt clumsy or not forgetful) all still work after a couple years of use.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Anonymous Coward]

You need a bigger truck.

Re:great, another point of failure

[briancurtin]

i live in a place where i could probably leave my front door open all day, not just unlocked, but open but of course we dont do that. well we lock it now because a naked 50 year old man walked in and made himself at home one morning, forgot to take his pills. true story.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Anonymous Coward]

Not so stupid, try living in a colder climate. I have dropped my keys and had a sand truck run them over before.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Anonymous Coward]

You work in a place with construction. You have your keys in your pocket but your hands a numb because of the cold. You try to put your car keys in your pocket but miss. They fall in the snow which muffles the sound. You get into the construction vehicle put it in reverse and you drive over your keys, after you have feeling in your hands maybe after 5 minutes you realize that you don't have your car keys so you start looking for them. You will walk in the tracks of the truck because it is easier walking and you happen to find the glint of your keys for your car you pick it up. And at the end of the day you put it in your car and it works.

I am sorry but your post angered me. Almost irrationally so. But I think I made a good counter argument.

I'm sorry, but you're full of shit. But I like your style. Almost irratonally so. I don't think much of anything.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Anonymous Coward]

Slightly off topic, but it has to do with running things over cars, so what the hell.

At work a few weeks ago we had an old hard drive with data we needed to get rid of. So old that the connectors to it weren't even in production anymore and there's no modern equipment it could hook up to... One of those old 5.25 inch hard drives. The thing was a freakin tank! We ran it over with my Tahoe in some pretty destructive positions, threw it against concrete, smashed it with sledgehammers, the damn thing wouldn't break. We finally broke it open after about 15 minutes of sledgehammering/throwing against the pavement. It'd be nice if new hard drives were this tough. :P

Re:great, another point of failure

[Spy der Mann]

At -40 I'd be more worried about that little car even working than about crushing your keys.

Hah! At -40 I'd be worried about my frozen arm breaking when I turn the keys!

Re:great, another point of failure

[briancurtin]

looks like its time for me to start a USBsmith shop then

Re:great, another point of failure

[phoenix321]

You dare making the car dealers unemployed, don't you?

There's no chance in hell this would happen. There's something hardwired, copy protected inside. A challenge-response system you can't easily defeat with a playback-attack. Nooo, the dealers will want to sell you more, not less. The stick wears out fast or the memory on it becomes too small, have a new one!

Re:great, another point of failure

[Anonymous Coward]

Forget the USB keys. I'm more impressed that you drive over things with a grain truck, just to see if they'll still work afterwards.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Lumpy]

But the cool part is if you buy a crappy brand of car stereo you can have your mp3's on that usb memory drive.

pyle, www.pyleaudio.com, makers of the low end crap quality car stereos are the only innovators to bring us the car stereo with USB plug on the front for our thumb drives.

none of the "high end" car audio makers will do this.

personally I find it the best mp3 playing car stereo ever made. I can have my linux box load up my fresh podcasts every morning, a simply plug in and away I drive listening to radio that does not suck or cost me $12.95 a month.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure this happens, like, all the time too.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Hes Nikke]

sorry, bad argument. i put my keys away when i'm still next to my vehicle. if you're driving your construction vehicle within six inches of your transportation vehicle, i think you have bigger problems!

Re:great, another point of failure

[FragHARD]

<>

Well to get traction on the ice of course because he forgot to put chains in the car.

Re:great, another point of failure

[westlake]

Then you can treat your employees like adults instead of children.

Some of your people will be always be corrupt and others weak or careless. Threats of punishment have little meaning whem secrets walk out the door. HR isn't recruiting saints.

You do what must be done.

Re:great, another point of failure

[FragHARD]

Would that be a flat piece about 2 feet long 1 inch wide and fairly thin and notches at the end... I think that is called a slim-jim ;=)

Re:great, another point of failure

[Anonymous Coward]

I concur. I put my PNY Attache in the washer/dryer once and it still works like a charm.

Re:great, another point of failure

[subgrappler]

well there is a place you can shove the USB key that your employer probaly wont bother to (or want to) check... but they might get curious about why you walk funny and can't sit for more than 30 seconds.

Re:great, another point of failure

[TClevenger]

Exactly. I can have another key made for about 2 bucks.

Re:great, another point of failure

[geekoid]

God forbid that accidentlly fall out of your pocket.

That being said, nhow well would an USB key work after the kids have been playing with it? :)

Re:great, another point of failure

[Anonymous Coward]

Much, much, MUCH easier said than done.

Even when there's hard evidence, even when you have records of 'byebye.tar' and have shown matching error messages in software. It still takes years of court battles, and millions of dollars in legal fees.

Re:great, another point of failure

[magarity]

After about 2000 "removals" you typically lose your drive from interface wear of one kind or another
 
That's a consumer grade memory module which has a thin layer of cheap, weak metal for connectors. I'll bet it has occurred to Mazda already and they're making the car key things a little tougher. I imagine they use stainless steel for the connectors or somesuch tough metal.

Re:great, another point of failure

[cynyr]

gets -40F here at least ~3 times a year here, Marquette, MI USA

Re:great, another point of failure

[MarkRose]

Temperatures below -30 C are only an issue if you run diesel (which begins to gel). Gasoline and propane continue to work great. I've never needed to plug my car in, ever, even in -40 weather. Obviously, you don't want to work the engine hard until it has warmed up, or you risk cracking things. But really, -40 is not a big deal.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Anonymous Coward]

My Escort allows me to remove the key while it is running (just have to pull it strait out)... so yea, it is possible to run over my key while i'm driving my car.

Re:great, another point of failure

[cynyr]

ever go to move a stick back 4 inches and be too lazy to turn it on, or what happens when 1 car key get's dropped and run over by another car?

Re:great, another point of failure

[Anonymous Coward]

They do treat us like adults. There are rules, we follow them. There's no nazi at the gate frisking us. We're expected to follow them, and folks who don't end up getting themselves in trouble without getting ratted on by anyone else.

Re:great, another point of failure

[zonker]

The likelyhood of this getting from the concept vehicle to the production vehicle is debatable. Read this article for example: http://news.com.com/Mazda+throws+away+key+for+USB/ 2100-7337_3-5845472.html?tag=nefd.top

Re:great, another point of failure

[Anonymous Coward]

what about my RX8 key with the chip on it?

Good luck copying that for $2...

Re:great, another point of failure

[Anonymous Coward]

If the keys are in snow, they will not get crushed.

-Anonymous Coward,
Edmonton, Alberta

Re:great, another point of failure

[Anonymous Coward]

-40F == -40C

http://www.google.com/search?q=-40F%20in%20C

Re:great, another point of failure

[mr100percent]

How could you run the keys over with the car, if that is the key needed to start the car?

Re:great, another point of failure

[Thuktun]

Looking at the coldest temperatures here, it looks like Minnesota tied North Dakota's coldest temperature of -60*F in 1996 (1936 for ND). I was up at my in-laws place in NW Minnesota that time and their outside thermometer was pegged at -66*F.

Without block heaters or a heated garage, we were running the cars every so often to ensure they'd start when we needed.

At that temperature, you walk slowly or you make your own wind chill.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Anonymous Coward]

Uhhhm, gas isn't the problem at those temperatures. The engine oil gets soo thick that the engine has difficulty cranking at around 20 below (Farenheit), even if you use real low viscosity oil. You may live in Canada, but I seriously doubt your "-40 is no big deal" statement.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Zakir]

What my question is, if that battery is dead, can you still get into your car... also, copying your 'key' would cost a fortune, because you'd have to buy another USB key from the dealer, unless you could copy them, which would create even bigger problems.

Re:great, another point of failure

[MayorDefacto]

Try taking some classes at the Grammar Police Academy before you try issuing tickets, genius.

Say hi to Steve Gutenberg and that guy who makes all the funny noises while you're at it.

...oh, wait. Grammar Police Academy? That doesn't sound like any fun at all...

Re:great, another point of failure

[Anonymous Coward]

The latter

Re:great, another point of failure

[Anonymous Coward]

You can't even use your keys to pull the wax plugs out of your ears.

Re:great, another point of failure

[CastrTroy]

Petro Canada sells wintergas though. and people buy it even though it costs more than regular gas. Because people think it's better than regular gas. Even though it's the same thing.

Re:great, another point of failure

[MarkRose]

Basically the same, but the additives are different. Personally I buy whatever. I'm loyal to no store.

Re:great, another point of failure

[nmb3000]

Florida: -2, Feb. 13, 1899, Tallahassee, 193ft

Oh, those poor people! It's a good thing it happened in the 1800's because if it went below zero in Floriday today I think half the population there would die. (Just speeding up the process a tiny bit it seems :).

Now Montana's -70* is beaten only by Alaska. That's some state pride right there folks!

Re:great, another point of failure

[CastrTroy]

I hate companies who treat their employees like theives. I konw a guy who worked at BBY, and every day, they put a sticker on his 3 year old cell phone so that they could say it was actually his. Yeah, cause if he was going to steal a cell phone, it would be a 3 year old one that someone brought in for repair, and not one of those fancy new ones. Just trust your employees a little bit. All you're doing is pissing them off. If they really wanted to steal information from your company, they would do it, and stopping them from bringing mp3 players from work isn't stopping them.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Anonymous Coward]

There's been a year-long drought in your area and a lot of the vegetation is dying out. You, yourself, haven't eaten in... how many days was it? At least you got a small amount of water yesterday to keep you going for one more day.

You fish around in your pockets for your keys, with your shorts clinging to your sweaty skin--so much for that water. It takes a minute, but eventually you managed to retrieve your keys from your pocket. You purposefully extend the key toward the keyhole on your car, but your hand-eye coordination has taken a beating recently. You miss the hole and put a big scratch on your car. You'd be mad, except the paint is already peeling off like shingles in a hurricane and the delirium doesn't really permit you to feel anything other than a dull aching sensation.

On your second attempt, you jam the key into the car on the other side of the hole, but harder this time. The jolt sends the key on its merry way down to the hot pavement below.

As you strain to bend down, the muscles in your lower-back aching like you'd just finish a hard day's work in the coal mines, something flashes right past you. You didn't have time to comprehend the situation with your reduced faculties, but a quick glance down the road tells the story exactly like Homer couldn't.

That dingo must have been hungry; how it was still alive, you're not sure. You are sure that is has your keys, though, and you need them to get out of this godforsaken place.

Good thing you still have an unused shell in your handcannon. You wearily take a few steps closer, put the sawed-off shotgun next to the dog-like creature's side and letterip.

Picking through the scattered remains is a chore and pretty messy, but the keys are intact. That ol' mate Fido could've been working the digestive juices for a week and the key would still serve its purpose.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Kadin2048]

And this is why the rest of the country laughs at you. Constantly.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Kadin2048]

Uhh...not true. While you're right that gasoline doesn't gel like diesel fuel does, at least at temperatures you and I are likely to encounter in our lives (some components of gasoline start to gel at -97 F), that assumes that the gasoline is pure and uncontaminated. If the gasoline has any water in it at all, then the freezing point can rise up to the point where it's possible to have problems.

I've heard a lot of different explanations on how you get water contamination in gasoline, but the common thread is that it usually only happens if you have a very high ratio of air to gasoline in the tank, either the big one at the station or the one in your car. If you get some moist air inside the tank, it can then condense on the cold interior walls of the tank and put the moisture directly into the gas. By keeping the tank full, you have less air to condense and more gasoline in which to distribute the trace water.

But it's quite easy especially if you have a crack in the top of the gas tank, or a cap that doesn't fit tightly, to get water contamination in your gasoline. Then it definitely can freeze up in the lines, or the small ice crystals can clog the fuel filter.

The "Wintergas" which another poster mentioned above, although I'm not intimately familiar, is probably just gasoline with some additional methanol added. Since the methanol is hydroscopic, it absorbs the water and lowers the freezing point back to an acceptable value. You can buy this at most gas stations in northern states, usually under the name "Dry Gas."

I've always wondered whether this was redundant now that most gasoline you buy is actually 10% or more ethanol. I know that dry gas definitely predates gasohol (and unleaded gas, for that matter) and seems to be used religiously by older drivers, so perhaps it doesn't serve any purpose anymore.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Kadin2048]

At the end of the day, you need to ask yourself: was getting rid of that old ASCII porn collection really that important?

Re:great, another point of failure

[danheretic]

so you can't drive this car to work people

But with the price of gas, who's driving to work now anyway?

Re:great, another point of failure

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course, the snow acts as padding for your keys.

Re:great, another point of failure

[russellh]

In my family it is said that gramma ran over herself. Parked in neutral thinking it was park, got out, went around behind as the car started rolling backwards...

Re:great, another point of failure

[MarkRose]

Yep. Adding methyl alcohol to your tank (in small quantities) is a common thing to do up here, at least when engines sputter a bit in the cold ;)

Re:great, another point of failure

[Anonymous Coward]

"ambient temperature is -40 (celsius or fahrenheit, your pick)"

Kelvin?

Re:great, another point of failure

[Mspangler]

So, if the battery is dead, how do you open the door so you can pull the hood release to attach the jumper cables?

Electric only door locks are a just plain bad idea.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Gulthek]

What about a key fob? Can't get that for two bucks already.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Firethorn]

Very true.

There are places that I could walk into the unoccupied house, and be watching the TV, and when the owners came down they'd help me get my frozen car started. Or give me a ride into town.

On the other hand, if you start a problem, just about every one of them has multiple guns.

It's too cold to want to cause trouble most of the time. I mean, do you really want to freeze trying to break and enter? Evade the cops in the winter? Hint: You try to run, and you'll probably freeze.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Tug3]

At -40 I'd be more worried about that little car even working than about crushing your keys.

I'd be worried about a wheenie plastic toy car too... (And I'm not just talking about Mazdas now.) ...on the other hand -40C/F is nothing that a car should not stand. I've started (to get to the uni as usual) at -40C/F, and didn't have a block heater either at the time. No worries. But that was about 20 years ago with a car that was about 20 years old at the time, it was a late 60's model Beetle.

Nowadays I live by the sea (where it hardly ever gets below -30C) have a block (and internal) heater, so I'm not worried about my new cars. - But I do have some older (project) cars in the garage, so I won't be stranded in case the new computerised play things break...

Re:great, another point of failure

[PickyH3D]

That's what the person on the network you're using it for other purposes for was thinking, as he copies it.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Reziac]

Five. ;)

Re:great, another point of failure

[WhiteBandit]

Ah ha! I have just such an invention for you to prevent your keys from falling out of your pockets and all that jazz!

Carabiners are cool!

Re:great, another point of failure

[SanityInAnarchy]

Nah, just Minnesotans.

Re:great, another point of failure

[hairyfeet]

Hell,Here in the rural south(60 miles north of Little Rock,AR)nobody ever locks there doors--Hell,Son,That's what the mean ugly mutt in the yard is for!

True story-After losing my best bud of 25 years(man i miss that dog)i started getting gas and yard tools stolen.Went to the local pound,Picked up a stray mutt that NOBODY wanted(big scary part wolf mutt),Two days later-BINGO!-I hear a scream,Come running out to find my new mutt happily bringing me back a piece of bloody pants leg.Never had to worry about locking anything since

If you want to feel safe and thief free,Go to your local pound.Pick up the ugly mutt that nobody wants.He'll be very grateful to have a home and someone to pet him and you won't have to worry about them nasty thieves.

Now if you will excuse me,Talking about my mutt has made me miss the fellow so I'll go give him a hot dog and a good ear scratch(Gotta love a good mutt).

Re:great, another point of failure

[Anonymous Coward]

Duh!




Ok, I think you're just trying to bring that fact to the attention of those few who aren't already aware of it, and
without sounding pedantic. But it's a joke, and explaining it won't make it funny to those who didn't get it.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Anonymous Coward]

Gramma didn't ran over herself. GRAVITY ran over gramma.

Now, if she had left it on gear and still managed to run to front/behind of it...

Re:great, another point of failure

[hypnoticstoat]

There was a show on in the UK called "Braniac Science Abuse" where they took 4 types of storage media. A floppy, a harddrive, a CD and a memory stick then subjected them to various things trying to corrupt them. They immersed them in water, baked them in a pie, ran over them with a car then fired them out of a cannon against a brick wall. They might have done more things but I cant remember. The one thing I do remember is that although the outer casing of the memory stick was destroyed it still worked fine.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Anonymous Coward]

but it would be easy to back up; unlike keys. How many people have key cutting machines at home/office (okay, okay, a few, but not the vast majority)? Who has an extra USB stick kicking around. Download your ignition key from an internet server or home pc and away you go. Instead of a call to the CAA/AAA/ADAC you multiply the number of place you can get a "key". E

Every one is assuming that the key looks like a usb stick. What about a compact indestructable ABS housing? Duh!

Re:great, another point of failure

[Anonymous Coward]

I can infact double the probability of your keys being run over and thus being unable to run your car with another scenario. Your impossibly tired after fighting your way from your parking spot across the street up to your apartment against the wind, the cold, the ice, and the assortment of bags you are carrying. You decide that you simply cannot continue without taking a rest, and so you curl up in the street in your white (GAP says it's cool to dress all in one colour, and to match that colour to the season, so ever the fashionable one, you are dressed in snow white khakis, a v-neck Tee, and your puffy down unzippable mini-vest) clothing. Out of nowhere the only other car in the world happens upon your street and fails to notice you curled up in the street in your white clothing and bags. Your keys are promptly crushed between you and the road as you are crushed between the car and your keys, your keys now fail to operate your car.

There is one positive to the probability of my scenario, if it were to occur, your grain truck keys wouldn't matter either.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Anonymous Coward]

And the rest of the world laughs at your whole country, dickface.

Re:great, another point of failure

[jellomizer]

It just needs to happen once to be annoying.

Re:great, another point of failure

[jellomizer]

Well most areas where you will be doing some constuction work in dead winter is usually partially plowed you only need a couple of centimeters of snow to muffle the snow and when you drive over it with say a any type of vechical over 1 ton. The snow will collaps to less then 1/2 cm. Thus putting consiferable strain on any USB Device.

Re:great, another point of failure

[JRIsidore]

USB flash drives are pretty resistant against water. I accidentally washed mine (forgot to empty my pockets) and it's still working fine.

Re:great, another point of failure

[AK Marc]

I've had someone else run over my cell phone and it worked, not even a broken screen. And I have had keys run over once, and they were broken and useless. So, based of my anecdotal experience, I would have to say that your implication isn't correct. There's no reason that this "key" couldn't be just as sturdy as the millions of "smart keys" out there (the ones with built-in chips, remotes, and other such electronics) which no one whined about when they were introduced and have been holding up quite well, aside from the occassional dead battery.

Re:great, another point of failure

[over_exposed]

As a former BBY employee I can attest to that - but I can also tell you stories of rampant theft BBY the employees (at multimple stores, not localized). Best Buy does this because they know that, in general, people are not trustworthy. In my own store, our LP (Loss Prevention) SUPERVISOR was arrested for stealing video cameras. I was a technician (before that retched Geek Squad crap) and my coworkers would routinely take home CDs and DVDs of music and porn from customer computers. That shit is why companies are so nervous. While I think this is a pathetic state of affairs, it's life.

Re:great, another point of failure

[druxton]

Not to doubt you (too much) but how do you drive over your ignition key?

Re:great, another point of failure

[Anonymous Coward]

Count this foreigner out from your warped thinking, fool.

Re:great, another point of failure

[superflyguy]

if you live in the subburbs, you might just have to drive to work. Or the train/bus station, in which case you'd still need the key. Or maybe your work is somewhere you can't get on public transportation, or it would cost more than the public transportation. Where I live, most people still drive at least part of the way to work because there are no other reasonable options.

Re:great, another point of failure

[wembley]

You work in a place with construction. You have your keys in your pocket but your hands a numb because of the cold. You try to put your car keys in your pocket but miss. They fall in the snow which muffles the sound. You get into the construction vehicle put it in reverse and you drive over your keys, after you have feeling in your hands maybe after 5 minutes you realize that you don't have your car keys so you start looking for them. You will walk in the tracks of the truck because it is easier walking and you happen to find the glint of your keys for your car you pick it up.

You have been eaten by a grue.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Anonymous Coward]

So wait a minute. Your saying that people in these extreem conditions are actually going to drive this 70% glass 2WD 2 door car?!

Id suggest a Land Rover or something or the sorts for conditions like that.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes

Re:great, another point of failure

[Feztaa]

Perhaps he is Abraham Lincoln. First he built the log house that he was born in, then he runs over his own keys with his own vehcile. A man of many talents, I should say.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Stephen Samuel]

You've been reading too many D&D manuals. (Gygax apparently determined that if you step inside from -40 weather your teeth will crack from the thermal stress. ... idiot).

In the US ±40C is Mil Spec (especially in the south). In Canada, it's outdoor equipment.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Stephen Samuel]

Treat someone like an enemy for long enough, and they'll get the hint. If they treat you like a criminal and make you do things like sticker your cell phone, it soon starts to look like anything not explicitly prevented is fair game.

The places where I work, we tend to be more worried about outsiders coming in and messing with things. Yeah, sometimes insiders will do wierd things, but nowhere near what it would take to put together a loss prevention type program. People generally like to be trusted, and will often take action to protect that trust (if it's there).

Re:great, another point of failure

[Darkmoor]

"How about running over it with a grain truck when the ambient temperature is -40 (celsius or fahrenheit, your pick)? I can do that with my keys right now and they still work."

How would you run over your keys with your vehicle? I don't know about your cars, but in the USA, keys need to stay in the ignition to operate. Freaky-ass Canadians and their -40 (Farenheight, thank you very much) weather.

Re:great, another point of failure

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep. Isn't that messed up? I also work in a place with access to classified information and we have similar rules. I'm on the Internet, can email, post to websites... but cell phones, PDAs, USB drives, and floppies are prohibited.

I'm a registered user but I think posting AC is smart in this circumstance :)

Re:great, another point of failure

[mink]

They're not stupid, they're advanced.

"Mazda Sassou" Gesundheit!

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like a Japanese sneeze.

Re:"Mazda Sassou" Gesundheit!

[dnquark137]

In Russian "sassou" means "[I] suck". Looking at the design of the car, all I have to say is, you certainly do.

Virus infections

[morcheeba]

Houston, we've got a vector. Good thing it's just a concept car.

Re:Virus infections

[NoTheory]

Come on now, you've got to work on the delivery, like so:

The key can also be used to transfer things like driving instructions or music to the car's hard drive."

Oh, you mean things like viruses?

I often wonder if people are in such a hurry to submit articles that they don't ever concider such ramifications, or whether they just prefer to leave it open for commenters to pick up on... (or both?)

Start the clock

[Limburgher]

How long before someone hacks it to:

A: Start multiple cars that they own

B: Start other people's cars

Re:Start the clock

[Nos.]

Though I can't read the article (its refusing connections, even without the referer set), I'm guessing the car will look for a key in a particular file. So, hacking it to start more than one car would involve convincing a USB device to deliver a different file based on who is requesting it. Now, if each car looks for a different file, then its not really a hack, its copying a file.

Re:Start the clock

[jayhawk88]

That was my first thought too. I mean seriously, somewhere right now there's a guy getting a freaking HP calculator to host his website. It'll take about 10 minutes for this to get cracked.

Re:Start the clock

[DevanJedi]

OR to run Linux!

Re:Start the clock

[prockcore]

It'll take about 10 minutes for this to get cracked.

Why? It's a public/private key pair. Those aren't exactly hackable... if so, then GPG and SSH would have some serious security issues.

Re:Start the clock

[mwilli]

I'm sure they don't run windows, so it's probably more complex than that. I'm guessing it's not a typical, off the shelf, flash drive, but specialized so that, as is, only the car can read it.

Re:Start the clock

[TheSloth2001ca]

Everything is hackable. Will it be worth someone's time to do it? I guess it depends on how lucrative the stolen car market is

Re:Start the clock

[jofi]

That's just silly. We all know that we don't want to have to type commands to use our car.

Re:Start the clock

[sarlos]

I won't be happy until I can hack it to boot Linux on my onboard computer and use http://www.verizonwireless.com/b2c/promotion/contr oller?promotionType=miniPac&action=miniStartone of these to control my coffee pot and start the microwave to reheat dinner while i'm driving home from work.

Re:Start the clock

[killjoe]

The new nissan micra seems to have some sort of a bluetooth or a RFID key. When you aproach the car it unlocks the doors and then you simply get in and turn the ignition without taking the "key" out of your pocket and putting it into the ignition.

When you think about it that's real cool, but only if they can make it as safe as a key.

Re:Start the clock

[John.P.Jones]

Okay instead of thinking about how to hack it, why don't we think of the harder question, how to make it secure?

What if the drive has multiple partitions (is this possible with USB?) and one is normal and two are small specialized partitions. When a challenge is written to one of these (only a couple bytes long) and then the other one is read than the result of the read is a response to that challenge instead of a normal data value. This would effectively hide an arbitrary secure chip behind a USB key interface. This could easilly be implemented without the partitioning (in some convoluted way)

If you want to be able to transfer the data to a new key and actually have it work though there is no way to make it super copy safe. Of course as many have mentioned most car keys aren't super copy safe and those that are tend to be annoying, my VW key would cost several hundred dollars to replace because we bought it used and didn't get the key number tag that came with the car. That is annoying but the dealer likes itbecause its a good source of income for them.

Re:Start the clock

[Jason Earl]

If you can use it to copy music from your computer to the car's stereo, then it's probably just a bog-standard USB drive.

Re:Start the clock

[jwocky]

They can probably put a transmitter in the usb key just like most car keys have now.

Re:Start the clock

[bmalia]

Bah... I'm not worried about it. Takes about 10 seconds for someone who knows what they're doing with a slim-jim and 20 more to hotwire it. At least this way, less damage will be done to the car.

Re:Start the clock

[vigilology]

I don't know.

Re:Start the clock

[Anonymous Coward]

Who says you need to plug a USB key in to the car? Likely a hacker would use a laptop and plug the USB in to that and use either brute force or dictionary attack to start the car.

Re:Start the clock

[Geek of Tech]

C) Run Linux. (Oh, don't you even start to pretend you weren't dreaming about it... Yeah right man!)

Re:Start the clock

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure it is, ever hear of a replay attack? These things are USB drives and do not use smartcard technology. Copying a key will probably be as easy as using dd. If you are lucky, they might even store the keyfile on the same filesystem (most likely FAT32) that your music is stored on though the key could always be stored as raw data on a seperate partition which would be enough to stop your average Windows user.

Security?

[BlackCobra43]

How secure is this compared to a traditionnal key?

Really, "keygens" could be given a whole new meaning...

Re:Security?

[owlstead]

There are many USB tokens on the market. Probably a few of them will handle 2048 bit RSA keys. This is as strong asymetric encryption as you'll ever need.

What you do is you send a challenge (random bytes) from the car to the token. It encrypts (read: signs) the challenge with the private key. Now the encrypted challenge can only be decrypted by the public key. The car does this and if it finds the challenge it knows that the token has the secret private key of the public/private key pair.

These chips can keep the private key pretty safe, so safe that it is really, really hard to get it ever out of the chip, even in a big lab. And with USB it is pretty easy to put some MB's or GB's next to it.

All this said, such a key would be easy to loose (forget you put it in a computer somewhere), and USB has not such a strong connector (even if better than most computer connectors). I hope they used one that was designed from scratch. It's not so much the security that I worry about.

Re:Security?

[merlin_jim]

These chips can keep the private key pretty safe, so safe that it is really, really hard to get it ever out of the chip, even in a big lab.

Oh yeah. REALLY safe, I'm sure. I mean it's not like you can extract the data with a standard photographic flash

Re:Security?

[owlstead]

Well, they needed to get to the chip first, then they would have a pretty good microscope (not your default kind of thingy) and they their attack might work. But nowadays most of the keys are stored encrypted with another (symetric) key that is not stored in main memory. Other kinds of memory are much harder to read. Note that this article has been published in 2002 and still smart card IC's get a CC AEL4+ rating. Not to say that there are no problems - attacking a chip with this attack has a much higher success rate than attacking an RSA key with any length over 512 bits. But this attack would at least be rather much for a car thief, even one that has a big criminal network behind it.

Re:Security?

[ZakMcCracken]

Public key cryptographic security would probably be overkill for a simple one-to-one transaction like this one.

What is likely to have been engineered, rather, is that a short secret (~128 bits) has been stored on the key and on the car, both with physical security (as in a smartcard). Then, the car can authenticate the key using a simple challenge / response protocol based on secret key cryptography.

The short secret itself is probably generated from a master secret, a key derivation algorithm and the car's serial number.

Re:Security?

[CosmeticLobotamy]

If they have the key already, why are they bothering?

Re:Security?

[owlstead]

Yep, that would work. As long as the keys are safe, you wouldn't want anyone be able to copy the keys. Besides stealing the car, their would be no prove that someone did not have access granted or not (fraud).

The protocol is not that much of an issue (as long as it is chosen with care). The other practical considerations are much more important. Even RSA processors are not that expensive anymore, but I agree that it would be overkill for this kind of "problem".

Re:Security?

[cow-orker]

Pardon? You just put a keyfile on the flash drive. If the correct key is there, the car starts, if it isn't, it doesn't. You don't need any crypto, b/c the channel is secure (man-in-the-middle between you and your car? there's no room for that...). Who would intercept your key and copy it? YOUR CAR? That's ridiculous.

Re:Security?

[owlstead]

What if the other party is not your car? Someone walks past your desk, puts your key in a cheapo copy device and the drive will fill it no questions asked? What kind of scheme is that?

Re:Security?

[patio11]

You've got it backwards (public key encrypts, private key decrypts) but are otherwise correct.

Re:Security?

[De Lemming]

You've got it backwards (public key encrypts, private key decrypts) but are otherwise correct.

No, that's when you want to encrypt a message (e-mail, document). He talked about signing, which is the other way around (private key signs, public key verifies).

Re:Security?

[cow-orker]

No other scheme than with mechanical keys. In fact, you really need a copy, breaking the lock and hotwiring doesn't get you anywhere.

Re:Security?

[owlstead]

Why the hey would you make a scheme on par with mechanical keys if you can do better? And maybe the shape of mechanical keys is also some protection? Most key copiers start out with a basic key and put that further in shape.

Oh great.

[GMFTatsujin]

Considering that my USB key just died yesterday after about a year of use, taking lots of yummy files with it, my heart THRILLS at this news.

Re:Oh great.

[ad0gg]

Considering that my USB key just died yesterday after about a year of use, taking lots of yummy files with it, my heart THRILLS at this news.

Yummy files? Is that the new term for porn?

Re:Oh great.

[Ced_Ex]

No... more like the files produce some protein which to him are yummy.

Eeewwww

Re:Oh great.

[Anonymous Custard]

no, he meant linux updates.

Re:Oh great.

[ben0207]

For some of us that is porn.

Re:Oh great.

[superpulpsicle]

Finally kindergardeners have an alternative word they can use loosely in a classroom.

Re:Oh great.

[hobbesx]

Yummy files? Is that the new term for porn?

Kinda, only for porn with cucumbers and carrots.

Re:Oh great.

[hobbesx]

And chocolate and whip cream! How could I forget those!

<HomerSimpson>Mmmmmmmmm</HomerSimpson>

Re:Oh great.

[Bogtha]

Maybe he was running Portable Firefox and is distraught at the loss of all his cookies.

Reliable?

[EvilSporkMan]

Every USB drive I've ever owned has started to get a little flaky after a bit, and I don't abuse them (except the first one). It'd be a bummer if I couldn't start my car because my USB drive had bad sectors.

Re:Reliable?

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

Every USB drive I've ever owned has started to get a little flaky after a bit

After only one bit? it really isn't reliable...

Re:Reliable?

[Seraphim_72]

Imagine though, that with the proper password that you could back that key up to a HD or CD ... imagine temp passwords - "Bill, could you get my car from the Airport parking ramp? The password is "h&FT>l543", sadly I am here an extra week or two."..imagine that your iPod,usb HD, any usb device becomes a potential key - all passworded and hashed just for you. - To me this sounds great - no more locksmiths - gimme a cell phone with web access.

Sera

Concept car only.

[CerebusUS]

Cool idea, but wake me when you can actually buy one.

Re:Concept car only.

[itomato]

"turboed three cylinder 1.0 litre direct injection petrol engine."

They are both Auto Show "OOoh-inducers". Press tidbits. Just like the model that was named "MP3" with the MP3-capable stereo..

Re:Concept car only.

[Anonymous Coward]

This is has great potential for a couple places:

Valet parking / time limited keys
Give the valet a six-hour code that will never work again. Who cares if gets copied?

Rental agencies
Just like hotels, change the codes for every customer.

Timelocks for minors
In some jurisdictions, youth drivers aren't allowed on the roads at night. Give them keys that don't work at night.

Fleet maintenance
Companies like Roadway, Coca-Cola, or the USPS would love inexpensive programmable key systems

Re:Concept car only.

[Thud457]

"turboed three cylinder 1.0 litre direct injection petrol engine."

That sounds more like an MP3 player than a real automobile. /dirty American

Re:Concept car only.

[sean23007]

Not going after you here, but I've seen this attitude a lot here lately. "Who cares about this cool new tech, I want to buy things!" Seriously guys, that's a cool idea. Instead of whining that this thing somehow prevents you from enjoying you current car or buying a new one, why not think of other cool things that could be adapted from this. Like sending an encrypted signal from your bluetooth phone to your car to start it from 30+ feet away. How often would you use that? Every day?

Re:Sorry

[Anonymous Coward]

Gives a whole new meaning to "it just feels right."

Grant theft Auto

[MonkeyBob]

Great. Now all it takes is some kid with the technical manual and a usb key to steal my car...

Re:Grant theft Auto

[Timesprout]

As opposed to some kid with a screwdriver.

USB?

[Chyeld]

Well gee, I wonder how hard these cars will be to steal.

Re:USB?

[Anonymous Coward]

Now you know what the "Zoom, zoom' means in their commercials.

It means, gone in 60 seconds.

not only does your mp3 player have a virus...

[bubba_the_mermaid]

but your Mazda 3 has one as well.

Will I get calls from my friends to help them get the spyware and viruses off of their car now too?

Re:not only does your mp3 player have a virus...

[pYrOmiLkMaN]

Popups would suck while driving.

Re:not only does your mp3 player have a virus...

[RealityMogul]

I think the ultimate in-car advertisement would be an injury attorney ad printed on the air bag.

Can you "clone" the key?

[Anonymous Coward]

Or use a larger USB drive?

This should be an adventure

[GecKo213]

Locksmiths everywhere will be out of business unless they start carying USB Flash drives. Won't it be fun when someone writes a program that will program all possibly key codes onto a 10 Gig flash driver or something and these cars just start dissapearing? I can't wait to be the first in line to buy one of these!

Re:This should be an adventure

[nyrk]

This already happens in a way. In high school it was pretty well known that most toyota keys would work on most toyota cars. I had a toyota pickup, and even though the keys were not the same, I was on one occasion able to enter, and start up a friend's truck. He happened to be walking on the sidewalk, and I drove past him as I was moving it to the back parking lot. That took a while to explain. Later though, he did help me when I locked my keys in my truck.
The point is, just because you see a failure mode in it doesn't mean that that he old way didn't have the a similar one

Re:This should be an adventure

[MonkeyBob]

I know what you mean. The key to my ski racks also open my garage door... I discovered this by accident when The keys happened to be lying next to each other and I noticed that they looked identical. Tried them out, bingo. One less key on my keyring, and 2 extra spares for garage/ski rack. Makes me onder who else can open both my ski racks and garage though...

Re:This should be an adventure

[owlstead]

Yeah, I've already started to write all 16 byte long numbers on my harddrive. The problem is that I'm a few bits short, some 309485009821345068724781056 of them. Oh, yeah, that's TERRA bits. You could divide by 8 to get bytes back, but I wonder how much good it would do you. Oh, and I forgot to remove your .008 Tb drive from it as well.

Re:This should be an adventure

[pizen]

I try my bike's u-lock key (the round kind) in every coke machine I come across. Somewhere out there is a coke machine waiting to give me free drinks. Unfortunately, it's not the one down the hall from my office.

Re:This should be an adventure

[LordSnooty]

The point is, just because you see a failure mode in it doesn't mean that that he old way didn't have the a similar one

That is true, but shouldn't these so-called "car manufacturers" be coming up with methods which have NO points of failure, rather than the same number as before? They take away one method, and replace it with a similar one. No, this smacks of marketing first, practicality second.

Re:This should be an adventure

[Anonymous Coward]

Earth bits? Sorry, prefix pet peeve.

Re:This should be an adventure

[Ced_Ex]

Why don't you try a bic pen?

Re:This should be an adventure

[i.r.id10t]

There's a locksmith tool you can buy that will fit any of those round keys... has sliders to produce the "pins" then it locks in place with a collar.

Re:This should be an adventure

[hunterx11]

Hopefully your key isn't shaped much like a Bic pen.

Re:This should be an adventure

[nyrk]

That is true, but shouldn't these so-called "car manufacturers" be coming up with methods which have NO points of failure

Yes, They should cure cancer too, and maybe solve world hunger, and global warming at the same time. Actually, I would be happy with a flying car
Any car can be broken into. Any mechanism can be fooled. complete security is not attainable.
As far as this being marketing, yep, they will do what they can to sell cars. Where is the crime in that? It does look like they are adding additional features to it as well.

Re:This should be an adventure

[The_K4]

No, this smacks of marketing first, practicality second.

Yeah because the H2 and H3 and sports cars that can go 180 mph are practical and arn't just mkareting to make people want 400 horses under the hood. Practicality doesn't sell, flashy does!

Re:This should be an adventure

[garberian]

I can one up you on that. I was at work and had to move an employee's car, but I couldn't find the set of keys he normally uses. As a last ditch effort, I found a key that looked similar to his and moved his 1990 Honda Accord. I later found out that the key was to an old Toyota pickup truck. Oops...

Re:This should be an adventure

[plavadp]

you locked your keys in the trunk of your pickup?

Concept

[spiphy]

We probably will never see this because it is a concept car.

This is a BAD idea.

[Tuxedo Jack]

What if someone uses something like Ghost to dupe the USB key to a key of their own? Unless this is a chip-based key, it won't be secure at all - and I don't know about you, but I don't want someone going to Best Buy and buying a $20 USB key to dupe my car key onto.

Re:This is a BAD idea.

[Piquan]

As opposed to today, where they can go into any hardware store and buy a $1 blank and $3 service to dup your key onto another key?

Re:This is a BAD idea.

[Jeff DeMaagd]

Aren't there secure USB key standards, where only authenticated software can even retrieve the data? I'm sure something like that can be done.

I think it could be used to implement a "use twice" key, so that if the valets try to use it on a joyride, the owner would know.

Re:This is a BAD idea.

[sycodon]

Actually, they will encrypt the key data and prohibit the duplication of the key by anyone except a dealer....at $100 a pop.

They will use the DCMA Act to sue anyone who provides a mean to do so on your own.

Re:This is a BAD idea.

[Amouth]

well i tried that for my car.. didn't work.. i used it to open the door fine.. put it in the ignition turned it and the alam went off.. i had to call the dealer to tell me how to reset it

aperently my has a chip and i didn't know it (and no it isn't one you could see)

Re:This is a BAD idea.

[Drooling Iguana]

Except that you can't distribute physical keys over the Internet.

Re:This is a BAD idea.

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

Today I can borrow a key for a few hours and go get a copy made, or I can make an impression of that key in just a minute, cast a model, and spend a few hours with my dremel tool making a duplicate that may or may not be good enough. I can duplicate a USB key in just a few minutes while you're in the bathroom. This just makes it even easier for someone with common off-the-shelf technology to make a copy. It has added functionality, but it is also less reliable and may be a vector for computer viruses to infect your car. Personally, I'll stick with an old fashioned key and a hidden kill switch.

Re:This is a BAD idea.

[mdabbs]

... or write down the VIN number from the plate under the windshield, call the dealer where you bought it and have them make a new key for them. Cars aren't nearly as secure as everyone thinks.

Re:This is a BAD idea.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd be thinking in terms of a garage door opener. The usb "key" sends a 32bit key to open the door.

There's no reason that you can't have the key change every time you open the door. I think this might help with the "dishonest parking valet" problem.

There's also no reason for the key to be limited to 32 bits. Make it 1k-bits or even larger-- you're only limited to how long you need to keep the usb-key in the "lock".

-cmh

Re:This is a BAD idea.

[Kurt Granroth]

As opposed to today, where they can go into any hardware store and buy a $1 blank and $3 service to dup your key onto another key?

Will that work with any new cars? The last three cars I've owned all had keys with chips in them. Lose the key and the dealer charges between $100 and $200 to replace it.

I'd imagine that the USB key would work somehow similar. Maybe it could encrypt the contents using some unique hardware ID associated with the key. If you lost it, you would have to go to the dealer to get a replacement ... just like you (or me, at least) have to now.

Re:This is a BAD idea.

[Anonymous Coward]

Except that you can't distribute physical keys over the Internet.

Actually the last 2 vehicles I've had I just go into my dealership, give them my "key number", and they can make me a new key. I'm sure that number I give them could be transferred over the net...

Re:This is a BAD idea.

[Drooling Iguana]

I think the main risk here is that someone might make up an archive of all the keys for a certain model and then start distributing that archive, so that a thief could put them all on a USB key and then be able to drive off with any of that model vehicle with nothing more than a USB key the size of a cigarette lighter.

Re:This is a BAD idea.

[Octagon Most]

"I can duplicate a USB key in just a few minutes while you're in the bathroom.

Since my keys are always in my pocket I will probably find your actions suspicious.

Re:This is a BAD idea.

[Dalroth]

Pfft, you've got this so wrong. You can dup the key in minutes, but you can distribute it across the entire world in mere seconds.

That's what is bad about this.

Bryan

Re:This is a BAD idea.

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

I disagree, I can send the specs for a regular key across the internet just as quickly. It is the ease of copying the data to and from a useful form that is "key" here.

Re:This is a BAD idea.

[pegasustonans]

Since my keys are always in my pocket I will probably find your actions suspicious.

"Here, let me help you!"

"What?! No!"

"You're making a mess!"

"That's because you're grabbing me!"

Meanwhile, someone else sneaks up and takes your keys out of your pocket.

It could happen.

Re:This is a BAD idea.

[Anonymous Coward]

Tell me when you can also distribute the car across the entire world in mere seconds for the hypothetical car thief to steal it. ;)

If you have access to the key, the car is likely to be nearby and you wouldn't need to send the copy anywhere.

Re:This is a BAD idea.

[algf2004]

An old fashioned key and a hidden kill switch, versus a USB key without a kill switch? Not a fair comparison really...

Re:This is a BAD idea.

[stormshaker]

Good security uses 'something you have' and 'something you know', so wouldn't it be a better idea to use some sort of password/keypad along with the usb key?

Re:This is a BAD idea.

[Anonymous Coward]

Be here 11/21/03 @ 6pm for a good time or to get your keys flashed.

Re:This is a BAD idea.

[weicco]

Yeah but you could read someone's USB stick into a binary file and distribute it on internet with register plate info with it "Want to drive my neighbour's car: usb.bin FIIFOUFAM-12345" :)

Re:This is a BAD idea.

[Khazunga]

Will that work with any new cars? The last three cars I've owned all had keys with chips in them. Lose the key and the dealer charges between $100 and $200 to replace it.

And you don't protest? With Audi, you can get the car to learn any new key, using some strange protocol I don't remember clearly. Something along the lines of starting the car with the old key and then with the new one, with or without dancing around the vehicle in between.

You have to pay if you lose all the keys, but then you'll be paying for a new central computer. Oh, and you'll pay by the nose...

Re:This is a BAD idea.

[Kichigai Mentat]

where they can go into any hardware store and buy a $1 blank and $3 service to dup your key onto another key?

Boy, are you out of touch. It is not that simple any more (or cheap!). It might be that easy on an '86 Honda, but modern cars have that problem taken care of these days. With my mom's '96 Camry, it seemed Toyota had a stranglehold on key duplication, and had the cost locked at $20 (So much for a $1 blank and $3 service!). Volkswagens (and I think Benz, and a few other car makers do this too) have a key where the up-down grooves are cut into the side of the key, not on top, which makes them very hard to duplicate (I'll bet only the manufacturer does it, for a hefty fee). Have you seen newer GM cars? (I think it's GM, I know it's some US auto maker, might be Pontiac) The keys have a little piece embedded in them that will enable the car to start (without it, it just sits there).

Duplicate keys aren't just duplicate keys any more. Chrysler embeds the car's remote keyless entry system into the keys now. When my dad bought his van, the duplicate was identical to the original. This leads me to believe that your corner store locksmith can't duplicate the key.

Of course, there's also an interesting effect that takes place over time. My mom's Camry's key had (over time) become quite warn and old. Instead of jagged jutts of metal, they became smooth slopes. Well, at one point she decided to get a new key made (we lost the original, and she was scared of losing the valet key). However, strangely enough, the new key refused to start the car. It acted as if we had used the wrong key. It seems that over time the lock became warn with the key to the point where it saw a duplicate as so different from the original. This isn't the only such case of these kinds of things. I had a friend with another older car. At one point, he broke his key in half. The duplicate he had produced wouldn't start his car, but his half-a-key would. Try doing that with a USB key.

Another problem with your statement is that to have your physical key duplicated, you have to take the key somewhere and get a copy made of it. Well, hell, if you can hang onto the key, why not keep it? Because the person will notice it's missing. Perhaps the owner will notice the key is missing while you're out getting it duplicated? Now, to make a copy of a USB key, it's much more subltle. Just bring over your laptop, and tell your friend there's some things you want to pull off of his USB key (it's supposed to act as additional storage, right?). While you're copying the other data, just copy the key. He'll never even know it's missing.

Now even MORE bad software in cars!

[Work Account]

As if BMW's Microsoft-powered iDrive wasn't bad enough, now drivers can copy viruses inadvertantly onto their cars from their home computers using their car key!

(Fact: 2005 BMW 7 series vehicle, MSRP of $70,000+, has more known bugs/defects already than a 1990 Lexus luxury sedan)

Great, but its a concept...

[sTalking_Goat]

and only the most mundane parts of concept cars ever make it into production. Nothing to see here.

It's cool until...

[Aslan72]

Your car 'keys' go through the clothes wash. :\

It's not impossible, but they may want to sturdy up the design of their key rather than making it work with existing models of usb drives.

--pete

Re:It's cool until...

[Moofie]

How is this worse than what happens with alarm key fobs? I hear those are pretty common nowadays...

reliability?

[the arbiter]

My USB keychains fail at least every six months. If my car does that there will be hell to pay.

Very bad idea, Mazda.

Re:reliability?

[MindStalker]

You know, its good to see that you and other people on this site have the same problem. What really disturbing is I can't find any review site that has done a failure rate analysis... Like its not a problem..

warez

[KingCarrot]

Cool, soon we'll be able to download keys from the Internet!

Wonder how many weeks it will take some group to crack the security....
Joyriding, here we come!

Driving Instructions?

[dave-tx]

The key can also be used to transfer things like driving instructions

Sorry, but I don't want to be on the freeway with someone who needs instructions on how to drive.

Re:Driving Instructions?

[tepples]

but I don't want to be on the freeway with someone who needs instructions on how to drive.

True, you know how to drive, but do you know how to drive without getting lost? And do you know how to drive a stick? And even you had to practice driving once.

Re:Driving Instructions?

[ThePatrioticFuck]

What, you don't think you are already? I know damn well that 90% of the people I see on the road daily haven't got a clue how to drive.

Re:Driving Instructions?

[sapped]

Sorry, but I don't want to be on the freeway with someone who needs instructions on how to drive.

Steer clear of the 405 around LA. Oh and the 110 and the 101... Forget it. Just don't drive anywhere in Southern California.

Re:Driving Instructions?

[Anonymous Coward]

Clippy: "It looks like you're trying to cut someone off. Would you like me to give them the finger as we pass them?"

Re:Driving Instructions?

[topical_surfactant]

Being in a car on the freeway in Southern California does not constitute driving. The technical term is 'idling'.

Re:Driving Instructions?

[Humorously_Inept]

Given that the same people will be on the freeway regardless, wouldn't you rather that they have some instructions with them?

Re:Driving Instructions?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's referred to as 101, not the 101, as everyone in Northern California is well aware.

Re:Driving Instructions?

[StarsAreAlsoFire]

Any highway starts with 'the'

The 10
the 5
the goddamned parking lot.

It is part of being in SoCal.

Uh... great.

[mcc]

Aand.. what happens when you accidentally drop your usb "key" in the fishtank?

Re:Uh... great.

[Anonymous Coward]

Aand.. what happens when you accidentally drop your usb "key" in the fishtank?

Same thing as when you drop your "real" key in a fishtank: you pull it out, dry it off, and use it.

Water is not going to hurt an unpowered USB key once it has dried off again.

Re:Uh... great.

[Tassleman]

If you drop your car keys in a fishtank?

Your brain immediately stops functioning, and you die, because you are too fucking stupid to live.

Re:Uh... great.

[rockinrobotix]

You stop drinking, duh.

Drives? Hard Drives?

[Lead Butthead]

The key can also be used to transfer things like driving instructions or music to the car's hard drive.

So when the drive crashes, what happens? Are the vehicles owner permitted to make "archival" copies of the drive content? What sort of information are kept on these hard drives? Can the content of the drive be used against the owner in some way? Questions, so many questions...

Re:Drives? Hard Drives?

[Anonymous Coward]

Making archival copies?? PIRATE! I'm wielding my DMCA-stick to come to your house and break out the windows and sue your ass for every single MP3 and video cassette and photocopy I find!

Yeah, I got nothin'.

Re:Drives? Hard Drives?

[Anonymous Coward]

FLASH drive. As in solid-state, no moving parts.

Re:Drives? Hard Drives?

[mrjackson2000]

The key can also be used to transfer things like driving instructions or music to the car's hard drive. i don't want a car that can crash on it's own, i have enough trouble with people crashing into my car as it is.

Security

[linguae]

Woohoo, my first first post

Anyways, back on topic, I think that the idea of using a USB key that holds directions and other information, as well as starting the vehicle, is a nice and innovative idea. However, the article nor the specifications state anything about where the information about starting the car is stored on the USB drive. My only potential worry about this is the failure of the USB port or computer inside of the vehicle (you can't start your car manually), and whether or not we'll see "Mazda bootkits" widely available online by crackers who now have something else to break in to.

Still, it is quite innovative.

This is a "concept" car... get it?

[ninja_assault_kitten]

90% of that car will change before production.

Re:This is a "concept" car... get it?

[Strider-BG]

Yes, we GET it.

The point isn't whether the USB key will be in THIS car, it's for we slash nerds to discuss the pros and cons of such an idea. It's a novel idea, why not talk about it?

sheesh.

Re:This is a "concept" car... get it?

[ninja_assault_kitten]

"Mazda Switches To USB Keys" - Seems pretty misleading to me. Perhaps, "Mazda considers switching to USB keys"?

Security for everything

[Iriel]

I guess that this system is going to have to rock solid. Otherwise, I'd hate to see the day that all these cars are shut down (or worse) by starting their car with a USB key infected with a Mazda.b worm from their PC.

"And I thought I was just loading some new tunes!"

Re:Security for everything

[Asprin]

Your naiveté betrays you -- there is no such thing as "rock solid". Ever.

Re:Security for everything

[Ced_Ex]

Your naiveté betrays you -- there is no such thing as "rock solid". Ever.


What if you're talking about rocks?

Re:Security for everything

[Iriel]

I'm well aware of that fact. People can brag about inpenetrable Linux servers, and those can be hacked just like anything else. The meat of my post was the point that worms could serve the double danger of harming your computer as well as your car. When considering the market majority of computer users run as administrator (ie. root) and allow all changes, I think this should stay a model car until security practices can actually be 'practiced'.

Otherwise, any Joe Sixpack with an email with a subject like "Re: Hello!^" can destroy their own Mazda

Re:Security for everything

[Allnighterking]

Take a look at any of a number of "Chain Gang" movies from the 50's or 60's (as in 19) In the world of rock vs sledge hammer. Rocks loose more often than not.

Re:Security for everything

[Mspangler]

"Your naiveté betrays you -- there is no such thing as "rock solid". Ever. What if you're talking about rocks?" I know you are making a joke, but I used to work at a mine that had serious issues with "incompetent rock." And the term means what it says; the rock kept breaking off and falling on people. It had to be held up with metal netting and roof bolts.

Re:Security for everything

[Anonymous Coward]

This is Slashdot, logic doesn't apply.

Re:Security for everything

[Anonymous Coward]

I know you are making a joke, but I used to work at a mine that had serious issues with "incompetent rock." And the term means what it says; the rock kept breaking off and falling on people. It had to be held up with metal netting and roof bolts.

Ah, there's our measuring stick.

So when somebody says Windows is "rock solid", that really means "Solid! unless it's incompetent, in which case it keeps breaking off and falling on people, and has to be held up with metal netting and roof bolts".

-bp

What happened to RFID?

[mungtor]

RFID would be the way to go. I though that somebody (Mercedes, Lexus?) had one of their uber-expensive cars set up so that you carried an RFID chip in a credit card in your wallet. When you pulled up on the doorhandle it checked your ID and unlocked. Automatically locked when you got more than 20 feet away, and only had a push-button for a starter.

Or, it could have all been a dream.

Re:What happened to RFID?

[dptalia]

The new BMW 3 series has this feature. One of my friends was just raving about it - there's and RFID chip in her key and the car automaticly unlocks its doors when it detects it.

Re:What happened to RFID?

[Mystical Presence]

That was Volkwagon on that monsterous SUV of their's, the Touareg.

It can also "kneel" to help the vertically challanged get in.

Re:What happened to RFID?

[Jussi K. Kojootti]

That's Lexus, and it really is cool. Just walk to your car and open the door... Once you push the start button it naturally adjusts the seat, mirrors, steering wheel and radio stations automatically. The 'key' is large though, definitely not credit card sized.

Re:What happened to RFID?

[Nos.]

The Cadillac XLR is the first vehicle I know of that had these features.

Re:What happened to RFID?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, your right... one of my clients has a mercedes that does this, only it is a normal IR key that has a RF chip included, rather than a creditcard. You also have to push a button on the handle to get it to check your code and unlock (ie you cant just walk up to it). The pushbutton start is cool, and the car can even sense if the key is inside the car, and wont start if it isnt.

-wash

Re:What happened to RFID?

[SFEley]

It's not an "uber-expensive" feature; my Toyota Prius has it, and the car only cost $25,000. The RFID key's not a credit card, it's a fob on my keychain, but it's extremely convenient not to have to pull anything out to unlock my car or start it.

Re:What happened to RFID?

[Richy_T]

RFID really isn't expensive. Plug for the company I used to work for: Affordable RFID kits. If you call the owner, he's a great chap and happy to answer any questions you might have.

Rich

Re:What happened to RFID?

[Botia]

My '96 Corvette had a dongle that worked like this. You walk up to the car and it unlocks. You walk away and it locks. It was pretty nice although the range was much smaller than the typical dongle remote.

Re:What happened to RFID?

[ptbarnett]

My Acura RL has this feature, although it's not uber-expensive.

The dongle is about the size of a standard remote, and has the same buttons on it (lock, unlock, open trunk, panic). The difference is that while carrying it in my pocket, putting my hand on the inside of the door handle unlocks the car. Touching a raised dimple on the outside of the door handle locks the car.

Other features:

• The trunk can be opened in the same fashion: just lift up on the release above the license plate while the remote is in your pocket or purse.
• The car will not lock when the remote is inside the car. The trunk will not close and lock if the remote was dropped into the trunk.
• The remotes are coded #1 and #2. Depending on which one enters the car, it chooses one of two sets of driver seat position, side-view mirror positions, steering wheel position, radio station presets, cell-phone hands-free directory (it uses Bluetooth to communicate with my phone, but doesn't have access to the phone's directory), and navigation system settings.

Re:What happened to RFID?

[Elwood P Dowd]

The car will not lock when the remote is inside the car.

This is going to be a plot element in a thriller at some point in the future.

Re:What happened to RFID?

[myth24601]

You can get this on the AMC Grimlin.

Re:What happened to RFID?

[Anonymous Coward]

Monsterous? You're kidding right?

Those things are like tall cars.

Re:What happened to RFID?

[mindstormpt]

Renault has been doing it for years, on most of their models.

Re:What happened to RFID?

[Anonymous Coward]

[Mercedes] Maybach 57/62.

Re:What happened to RFID?

[Anonymous Coward]

He must be from Japan

Re:What happened to RFID?

[ptbarnett]

This is going to be a plot element in a thriller at some point in the future.

I realized what you meant, and I should clarify:

The car will lock if I'm in the car. I'm not sure about how it determines it -- it's probably if either of the front seats are occupied. I don't know what happens if only the rear seats are occupied, as I've never tried that.

However, if I get out of the car and leave the remote on the seat, floor, console, etc., it won't let me lock the car by touching the dimple on the handle.

Re:What happened to RFID?

[Pfhor]

Weight sensors on the seats. It's how it can tell to flash the annoying "seat belt" light when you put a heavy bag in your passenger seat. I wanted to change the settings, and re do the light decal, so it says "Fat Ass" instead, even if the seat belt is on.

Re:What happened to RFID?

[leoval]

Sorry I meant to moderate this "Informative", Oh well.

Re:What happened to RFID?

[pjkeyzer]

My '95 has the same thing, and if I recall correctly, my neighbor's '94 has it also. From what I hear, it was only on '94 through '96. I love not having to use the key to get in it, but one problem on mine is that when it locks and arms the alarm, it honks the horn. If you are just near the edge of the range, say, talking to someone, it will honk every once in a while.
I have gotten some odd looks before, because when I walk up to it, people have noticed that I do nothing to unlock it. They always ask why I never lock my car.

pete

Re:What happened to RFID?

[lostchicken]

The XLR's mother car, the Corvette (back to at least the '99 C5) has this too. You slide the little switch to "passive" mode on the key, and it'll unlock the door when you get near the car.

Still have to start the car with the key, though.

Re:What happened to RFID?

[giminy]

I don't know what happens if only the rear seats are occupied

I believe the dome light slowly fades out, and funk starts playing on the radio...

Re:What happened to RFID?

[dascandy]

I /DO NOT/ want a start button on my brand new car.

Hot Wiring: No Match for a Thief

[Anonymous Coward]

That USB key is no match for a thief. Some thugs in Oakland, California can hotwire the ignition in about 1 minute.

No key is necessary.

Don't know why this hasn't been done before.

[L. VeGas]

This seems to me an obvious fit.

There should be an option to disable a specific key, if lost, so you don't have to change the "lock".

It should be fairly easy to hack it so that you can make more keys, but it's really easy to do that with current car keys.

new market: Mazda Virsus Scanner

[phsdv]

very soon there will be a new market: Virus scanners for your car.

It can download data to your car, so within no time there will be virus out to infect your car!

I am sorry police officer, it was not my fault that I was speeding. I could not slowdown, I really tried. It must have been a virus that I got from my USB key

Re:Ditto, and...

[GecKo213]

I don't want to have to trust the Mazda to do my driving for me!

Drive?

[FireFlie]

A lot of people seem worried about the how long the drive will last, but I would also be curious about the port. You would have to keep it a lot cleaner and I would imagine there would be problems with the port simply failing.

Cool idea otherwise though. I like the idea for a lot of things like the music or movie idea, and for directions and such, however I don't think I would feel safe having it as the starting mechanism.

Also if this is in place of the ignition, what is in the door locks? Having usb ports on the exterior seems like it would be asking to get your car hacked and having to carry around at least 2 keys would be a pain by default. There are always other means, but these things came to mind.

Re:Drive?

[TheOrangeMan]

I can't even imagine the damage USB door locks would suffer at minus thirty degrees celcius. Just imagine (because it would happen) some poor idiot using some deicer on those puppies...

Soon to be implemented...

[WombatControl]

Rumor has it that Mazda will introduce the new flash-drive technology on the 2006 Mazda 3.1. In the future they intend to make a version that can start via a network and is outfitted for carpooling - the Mazda 3.11 for Workgroups - until they get an 8-cylinder version, the Mazda 95.

(And while I may poke fun, I'm a happy owner of a 2005 Mazda 3, which is a damn good car - especially for the gas mileage...)

Re:Soon to be implemented...

[EnlightenedDuck]

I'm actually thinking about buying a Mazda 3. Any advice, suggestions, or reccomendations?

Re:Soon to be implemented...

[silvaran]

the Mazda 3.11 for Workgroups - until they get an 8-cylinder version, the Mazda 95.

Would that be the 3-cylinder one with another 5 cylinders bolted on?

Re:Soon to be implemented...

[WombatControl]

Get a manual. An automatic would make it much less fun to drive and reduces the gas mileage. The power package is a must. The other packages really aren't necessary unless you really want the extra features. If you've never driven a manual, it's not too hard to learn. By week two I had it down pat. YMMV, of course. I bought the 3i, but I've heard the hatchback is fun as well.

You should get a 4 year/48,000 mile warranty - and that includes roadside assistance and should the car ever be in the shop for more than a few hours, Mazda will pay for a loaner vehicle.

It's a fun car to drive, it's cheap, and the interior is better than a car that's 3 times the price. You'll love it. The steering isn't quite as good as the old Protege, but once you realize that it's a car where 60% of the weight is in the front you get used to the difference and you really can have fun with it. You can drive at some pretty low speeds in 3rd gear without stalling the engine, which is nice in traffic. The gearing is very docile, and the shifting mechanism is very easy to work with. (Japanese cars are much better than European ones in that way.)

I've had it for less than a month, and by driving carefully and not going over the limit, I've managed to get 27 mpg so far - 80 miles on a quarter of a tank of gas. And usually gas mileage goes up as the car gets broken in.

Re:Soon to be implemented...

[EnlightenedDuck]

Thank you. Thinking manual/hatch-back, and I appreciate the options reccomendation. Mike

Re:Soon to be implemented...

[feijai]

The steering isn't quite as good as the old Protege

I own a 2002 mid-year Protege5, and it is indeed an amazingly fun car to drive, even in automatic. Very go-kart feel, handles like a $40K car. Mazda (perhaps rightly) decided the P5's strongly sport-tuned suspension was too rough on the butts of the typical car-buyer, and made the 3 much more cushy at the price of handling. :-( Right decision I guess, but it's sad to see zoom-zoom fall by the wayside.

How bad is the 3's gas mileage?

And now back to topic: The USB car has a 3-"cylinder". Did they make a mistake -- how do you do 3 cylinder pistons? Or is this actually a rotary?

Re:Soon to be implemented...

[gazpa]

In the future they intend to make a version that can start via a network and is outfitted for carpooling - the Mazda 3.11 for Workgroups - until they get an 8-cylinder version, the Mazda 95.

And in the next 10 years they will only repaint the car for the next versions.
That are good news, that means that somebody with long beard is designing a free and open tank.

Re:Soon to be implemented...

[phoenix321]

3 cylinders aren't a novel idea. They're just 120 degrees apart on the crankshaft, no problem. A rotary has no cylinders of equivalent of this and I seriously doubt they'll risk the novelty value of their RX-8 with that kind of engine.

Useless trivia: former Eastern Germany produced a car called the "Wartburg", which had only 3 cylinder, 2-stroke engines from the very beginning. As with all cars from Eastern Germany, they were flimsy, unreliable and underpowered. But IIRC, the 3-cylinder models were much much more unreliable than all other Eastern German cars, which had 2-cylinder 2-stroke engine (the famous plastic car "Trabant") or imported russian 4-cyl 4-strokes. After the wall came down and western cars poured in, the 3-cylinders vanished first. In 1993, 3 years after, you'd be hard pressed to find any of them still in use. The Russian 4-strokes came second, after 5 years they were all gone, probably exported back to Russia. Amazingly, the 2-stroke 2-cylinders are still around, albeit a bit rare now. In short: as a former Eastern German citizen, I deeply distrust anything with only 3 cylinders. They will work, maybe in 2-stroke fashion - the Japanese are well renowned for good working models of this type - but I doubt they're anything as durable as regular 4-cylinders.

Re:Soon to be implemented...

[feijai]

3 cylinders aren't a novel idea. They're just 120 degrees apart on the crankshaft, no problem. A rotary has no cylinders of equivalent of this and I seriously doubt they'll risk the novelty value of their RX-8 with that kind of engine.

You may be right, they'd want to protect the RX brand: but Mazda had positioned the Renesys engine for, ultimately, a significant line of cars. The standard Renesys engine is a dual 3-chamber, but it seems to me that a single 3-chamber rotary would be straightforward.

Re:Soon to be implemented...

[LionMage]

The USB car has a 3-"cylinder". Did they make a mistake -- how do you do 3 cylinder pistons? Or is this actually a rotary?

Not a rotary. An odd number of cylinders is easily doable with an inline configuration. Volvo S40 and S60 sedans have 5-cylinder inline engines, for instance. The pistons just need to be attached to the crankshaft at (360/n) degree intervals, where n is the number of pistons/cylinders.

Inline engines seem to do well up to about 6 cylinders. (My Volvo 960 has a 3 liter inline 6, for instance.) Odd numbers of cylinders are pretty rare, especially in North America, but there are still a few 3- and 5-cylinder car models out there.

Re:Soon to be implemented...

[LionMage]

Whoops, forgot to answer this question:

How bad is the 3's gas mileage?

My coworker has the Mazda 3 hatchback with automatic transmission, and he's getting approximately 30 miles per gallon. He also typically uses 89 octane fuel instead of the more widely used 87, and he claims it gives him a small performance boost; I reckon the higher octane fuel also gives him marginally better mileage than he'd otherwise have.

Re:Soon to be implemented...

[Anonymous Coward]

The USB car has a 3-"cylinder". Did they make a mistake -- how do you do 3 cylinder pistons? Or is this actually a rotary?

Uh, no, I don't imagine they made a "mistake" in something as fundamental as the number of cylinders. :-)

If an inline 3 weirds you out, we better not even talk about inline 5, Volkswagen's V5, or Bugatti's W18 -- 18 cylinders in 4 banks.

Heck, most of these configurations would probably make your head explode.

And we'd better not even tell you about 1-cylinder engines...

Re:frist post

[bradbeattie]

As far as I can tell, the first post was over on Fark.

SCIF

[Copperhead]

My office is a classified environment, and USB drives ain't allowed in the door. Where am I supposed to put my keys?

Re:SCIF

[Moofie]

Bend over. I'll show you.

Re:SCIF

[Daniel Wood]

I work in a SCIF too, same rules. Yet all the computers have a DVD burner or a CD burner. Go figure.

Re:SCIF

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess you shouldn't buy this concept car; you poor baby.

Re:SCIF

[Anonymous Coward]

You would place it where you place the cell phone you bring...the box outside the scif.

Re:SCIF

[Anonymous Coward]

Interresting. In the classified offices I've worked in (Navy) there are nowhere to stick a USB stick into, just for that reason. No floppy, no CD either.

Re:SCIF

[patio11]

Been there and done that. Or rather, haven't done that, because it was drilled into me that it was impossible. I have the utmost respect for the engineers who walk around everywhere with a pad of paper and a pencil for security concerns, but couldn't see myself doing it forever, so I now work somewhere where data security means not dropping coffee on your keyboard.

Re:SCIF

[Copperhead]

The funny part is that I'm allowed to have my PDA, as long as all the communications abilities have been disabled.

Re:SCIF

[Anonymous Coward]

The burners should be locked down so you can't use them. Heck, in my SCIF (posting AC since this is a public board), the optical media readers are restricted to certain people. You should check with your security person if you really have unrestriced writing devices in a secure area.

But you're right, a lot of the rules, especially when taken together, are non-sensical. I think they just make them to keep everyone on their toes :)

My first written complaint about /.

[Skynyrd]

"Mazda switches to USB keys"

Um, no.

Mazda put a USB key in a freakin' concept car. There's no USB keys in any Mazda at any dealership now. It might happen some day down the road.

"Switches" my ass. "Tries out"? "Messes about with"?

Come on guys.

Re:My first written complaint about /.

[grumpyman]

What you didn't realize is that the USB 'key' actually plugs into a USB extension cable, in which is connected to the 'brain' of the car - Windows Vista (duh!).

Re:My first written complaint about /.

[colinleroy]

My first written complaint about /. (Score:5, Informative) by Skynyrd (25155)

How patient!

Re:Hot Wiring: No Match for a Thief

[Philmeeh]

Ahhh but look on the bright side - without a USB key they won't be able to upload their music to your harddrive

Cracked by...

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone know where I can get a keygen for the RX-8?

It's just a prototype people

[djve]

It's a concept car according to the article. Take a shower and wait a decade.

Do i have to right click to remove USB Drive

[Anonymous Coward]

Do i have to right click, to stop before taking out the key???

Does it corrupt data, and wont start my car next time I insert the USB... without right clicking first and stopping first.

What's that smell?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Whew, what's that smell? That's Sassou! Used to be Ron" - Al Pacino in Carlito's Way

If by "Mazda switching to USB keys"

[spyrral]

...you mean Mazda experimenting with using USB drives as a key in a concept car, then yes.

Re:If by "Mazda switching to USB keys"

[John_Booty]

We can only hope that Slashdot's editors will experiment with reading the articles at some point as well.

Security questions:

[ediron2]

Will any USB drive work? That'd be great for self-duplicating keys, not so great when someone finds one of my 'put the carkeys on every usb-stick-I-own' drives and then steals my car.

Can I hook up my Maxtor 200gig drive? If more than one car key is on it, will all get scanned? Will this enable a library of keycodes that'll allow any compatible car to get boosted? Is the stored data that starts my car based on some published algorithm that is more secure than passwords on .doc files or Rot13?!

Is it possible to temporarily override this? Can I force the system to a key-only state?

Can I rekey the car if I think the keycode data is stolen and am worried about theft? Does this require $35 and a trip to the dealer?

Physical issue: is the tip of a USB stick able to sustain the weight of sixteen keys without falling out? If my keys fall out of the car while I'm driving, how catastrophic is the system shutdown?

Secure?

[pYrOmiLkMaN]

But how secure will this be? I mean all car keys now are made slightly different then the next so that "one key wont rule them all" but all USB ports are the same (besides the difference between the larger and smaller connectors). I wouldn't want my car stolen by some "net-savvy youngster" who found a way around the encryption on my car and popped it on his own thumb drive. The ability to transfer files to your car is a good idea though.

Re:Secure?

[shobadobs]

It is much easier to find out the appropriate shape of a key from a lock than it is to break into a car, find the computer, take out the computer, look in its memory, and see the key.

And even this would not even be enough. The onboard computer could store a product of two very large prime numbers, and the USB key could store one of the prime numbers. Then the key stored on the onboard computer could be printed on the outside of the car if you wanted, and it would still be secure.

So the computer itself isn't the point of failure when it comes to keeping your car secure.

If you bothered to read TFA...

[Iphtashu Fitz]

...then you'd see that it said Mazda is testing a USB key in a concept car. Concept cars are prototypes of what the auto companies think cars MIGHT be like in the future. Many "features" in concept cars never actually make it into production. So despite the title of this article, Mazda isn't switching to USB keys - they're using it in a test vehicle that may never even see the light of day.

Re:If you bothered to read TFA...

[Winterblink]

Just because the car is a concept doesn't mean all the little enhancements found in it will remain concepts. Lots of features found in concept cars that never make it to production often end up in production models later even if the concept car itself doesn't make it.

Re:If you bothered to read TFA...

[bwy]

Sorry dude, I have no mod points. but it looks like you and I are the only ones that read the article. I actually read it days ago on another website, but that is another story. I really don't know how they twisted it into "MAZDA SWITCHES TO USB KEYS." This place is dumb.

Better than most.

[tgd]

Most car models that don't have a radio immobilizer of some kind (which is most cars) only have maybe 30 different keys for the whole model production. A lot of repo guys have key rings with all the standard keys for high-repo models.

I've actually found a color/key collision before when I was a kid. My mom and I almost drove off with someone else's car until we realized it was WAY too clean to be our car and we were in the wrong one.

Thats also why you can go online and order key dupes using the number stamped on the key or in some cases the VIN.

(Not many people seem to know all you need is the VIN and a contact at a dealer to get a key, as well... and the VIN is visible on modern cars through the windshield)

There is no real security with cars. If someone wants it, they can take it.

Re:Better than most.

[David Horn]

I disagree. My own car (an 8 year old Citroen) requires the car be present at the dealer and connected to their computers, with the previous key to hand, to have a replacement key coded.

With the incorrect key, the stop solenoid in the diesel fuel pump is not energised.

No key = new ECU = very expensive.

I imagine most new cars require the ECU to be taught to "recognise" the key.

Re:Better than most.

[Anonymous Coward]

Most car models that don't have a radio immobilizer of some kind ...

Your car has an immobilizer.

Re:Better than most.

[LightningBolt!]

Not many people seem to know all you need is the VIN and a contact at a dealer to get a key, as well... and the VIN is visible on modern cars through the windshield

To be more specific, you need to have a sketchy contact at a dealer. In real terms, this translates to "anyone in sales or financing".

Re:Better than most.

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no real security with cars. If someone wants it, they can take it.

That may be true, but it reminds me of the old joke about two people being chased by a bear.

One asks, "Why are you running? Everyone knows you can't outrun a bear?"

Response, "I don't need to outrun the bear, I only need to outrun you."

I don't need my car to be perfectly secure, just more secure than yours.

Re:Better than most.

[meloneg]

I prefer to go with the less-desirable-than-your-car approach.

That's why I drive a ten-year-old car with almost 200K miles on it. I frequently leave the windows open on a hot day, if I don't have anything valuable in the car.

Anybody desperate enough to steal it needs it more than I do. Its not even fast enough to attract joyriders.

But, it does it get me around just fine. And, I bought it outright for about 3 monthly new car payments.

Re:Better than most.

[ahaning]

FWIW, I was reading the manual for my dad's 3-4 year old Dodge Caravan and there are instructions on making extra keys if you have a working and a "blank" key. You can only make 4-5, though (Good Thing).

Check your manual to see if there's a way to do that with your car, too.

Re:Better than most.

[Malc]

Yeah, but is a car thief also going to know which fuse to bring with him to re-enable the ignition circuit on my car?

Re:Better than most.

[lostchicken]

On the Lexus (at least on my IS), while there are only a few mechanical keys that are in circulation, each key needs a radio transponder in it that's interrogated to start the car. The ID is specific to the key, but you can tell the car (through a bizarre song and dance involving turning the key a couple of times and pumping the accelerator) to allow a new key to pair with the car.

So, you can add a key to the car, but you need at least one key to get the thing in the programming mode. They don't store that code anywhere, so if you lose all four keys it came with, you have to buy a new ECU. Really, really expensive. Also hard to steal.

Re:Better than most.

[Anonymous Coward]

I beat up my vehicles so severely that the theft value is higher than the resale value. This lets me sleep easy at night. Why people put so much time, effort, and money into their vehicles is a mystery to me. All I care about is that it is safe and runs well.

Re:Better than most.

[David Horn]

No, strangely enough, there's a little tag which you hang on your keyring. When it gets within range of the ignition it turns out a little red flashing light. Must work in conjunction with the key.

Re:Better than most.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sigh. That's exactly what a fucking immobilizer is. Something that IMMOBILIZES your car, by for example, not energizing the goddamn solenoid, when the key and all the nifty doohickeys such as the "little tag" associated with it ARE NOT present.

Got it?

Re:Better than most.

[isecore]

Most car models that don't have a radio immobilizer of some kind (which is most cars) only have maybe 30 different keys for the whole model production. A lot of repo guys have key rings with all the standard keys for high-repo models.

Many older SAAB models (the 99 for example) have identical keys for the entire series. This is rather amusing, and it's a common occurence that an owner of a old-model SAAB might accidentally drive off with a different car.

It happened to my mother when she owned one. She got into the wrong car (but right color/model) and drove for about 100 ft before she realized it wasn't her car at all. Left a note with an apology and parked it in the same place. Think this happened 2-3 times in total while she owned it.

Re:Better than most.

[David Horn]

You're not a very nice person, are you?

What will we see next?

[TheOtherAgentM]

How about bluetooth ingition systems? Then we can start our cars remotely, someone can jump into it, and drive it off. All this can be done without us even being in line sight of our vehicles. Sure it sounds dumb, but it's high tech!

Re:What will we see next?

[hendersj]

We can already do this (though not with bluetooth AFAIK) - we were looking at a car a few years ago that had a remote keyless ignition system as an option.

Ignition may not be in the drive

[devnullkac]

The USB drive may simply be an add-on to the "keyless" ignition of the 2004 Prius: RFID authenticates with the ignition system when in close proximity. This way you've got a neat storage doodad, but the car will still run if your virus-ridden laptop reformats the USB drive.

Re:Ignition may not be in the drive

[Anonymous Coward]

close proximity is redundant and gramatically incorrect

Nice Car

[bhima]

Make it a diesel and 30% more effcient and call me in morning

Viruses...

[daviqh]

Oh, and won't you love it when your engine starts revving excessevly because of a virus and overheats to its' death...

Key Loss?

[sedyn]

Wouldn't key loss, and hacking issues be absolved by biometrics?

And as for damaging a biometric key, I think in this case the user has bigger problems... Well unless they need to drive to the hospital without a thumb.

Re:Key Loss?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well unless they need to drive to the hospital without a thumb.

Don't worry, the guy who just stole your car will have your thumb too.

Re:Key Loss?

[FragHARD]

> Well in that case we need biometrics for different extremities than just digits... but then again who knows what they would chop off! to steal your car *OUCH*

Re:Key Loss?

[Scooter]

Indeed - opens the way for hacking of a very different kind :P

Re:Key Loss?

[Nefarious Wheel]

You want to take your mittens off and touch them to an outside biometric scanner off in sub-zero weather? Do you also touch your tongue to frozen metal fixtures to see if it sticks?

Of course we never have problems like you describe because it never gets that cold in most parts of Australia. Generally we lose keys when the bower birds think they're pretty.

huh? why?

[Rhinobird]

USB for my car entertainment system is a good thing.
USB to start my car is WTF?

You know what would be kind of cool? With all these black boxes that are going into cars now, If there was a usb port (or something) somewhere to plug in to and get at that data. That would be neat. Get back home and upload your car's data to your home pc and analyse it. See if that special MPG sticker you put on your exhaust really works or not.

Re:huh? why?

[avalys]

There is one. It's called the ODBII port. All cars manufactured since 1997 (and sold in the US) have on.

You can buy an ODBII reader/logger from carchip.com. You plug it in under your dashboard, and can download the data to your computer.

Re:huh? why?

[Richy_T]

It's called obdii and you might be interested in carchip

Rich

w00t!

[RAMMS EIN]

So soon we will see the first Linux distros for Mazda appear? Can you imagine a Beowulf cluster of these? Or a botnet? That would be something!

Anything new in this?

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't see anything new in this but the usb mass storage. We have a 2003 renault which has no keys but a simple keycard, what im guessing is that the usb part is just an addon to allready existing keyless technology.

Hacking competition

[Cally]

I can see it now... some strange futuristic mutated derivative of Defcom's "Capture the Flag"...

"Gentlemen, start someone else's engines!"

Physical Strength?

[aero2600-5]

I don't know about most people, but my everyday keychain weighs a bit with only 5 or 6 keys on it. Is the physical interface between the key and the ignition going to be able to support that weight, or will it just be a few weeks before your USB ignition is broken from the strain and your key falls out every time you hit a bump or go around a corner?

I'm sure most of the slashdot crowd has seen a USB port that's been strained a little too much and is a bit flaky because of it.

Re:Physical Strength?

[surprise_audit]

So, maybe the USB port wouldn't be on the steering column?? Why is a regular key there?? So that it can disengage the steering lock with a (supposedly) unique edge pattern. The USB key won't do that, so it will probably use a solenoid or some other method to lock the steering. The USB key could easily sit in a pocket on the dashboard, along with whatever regular keys you have hanging on it.

Re:Hot Wiring: No Match for a Thief

[stupidfoo]

I'd be interested to see them do this on a relatively new BMW or Mercedes or a myriad of other luxury cars because you can't just "hotwire" them. No matter what wires you twist together nothing is going to happen.

Just like rotary engines...

[xxxJonBoyxxx]

Just like rotary engines...they're not as efficient or powerful and require special mechanics, but they are COOL! Zoom, zoom my ass.

Re:Just like rotary engines...

[Anonymous Coward]

powerful??? a rotary engine is sized at 1.3l but has 2.6l displacement. how is that not powerful, you moron! the new RENESIS is slightly larger then the transmission, output is NA, and rated at 238HP! Seems pretty powerful to me. The car that it is in is equally comparable to the 350z, yet the 350z engine bay is ALL engine.

Re:Just like rotary engines...

[HerculesMO]

Sadly you're wrong though... while rotary engines aren't as FUEL efficient, they are certainly more horsepower efficient, based on weight to power ratios. The rotary engine in the RX-8 is about the same size as a small 4 cylinder engine, yet it puts out 238 horses. It revs silky smooth up to 9000 RPMs, and has only 3 moving parts.

The fact it drinks gas like a drunk uncle unfortunately, makes it an unrealistic engine for cars today though, hydrogen technology is particularly well achieved thru a rotary engine.

If it weren't for the gas mileage, I'd keep my RX-8 after the lease is up... but I think I'll swap it out for a MX-5 later.

Re:Just like rotary engines...

[Anonymous Coward]

Huh????

IANAME (I Am Not A Mazda Expert), but I'm pretty sure the biggest rotary Mazda ever put in a production RX7 was a 1.9l 3 cylinder that put out 200+ hp in the mid '90s.... That is not at all inefficient in my book.

Some have managed slightly better naturally aspirated inline 4's, but not many. Rotaries are pretty finicky and run a bit dirtier from what I've heard but their hp/torque to displacement ratio is better than 75~80% of alternative engine designs.

Better solution: rfid tagged key

[Anonymous Coward]

Meh, my explorer already has a key with an imbedded RFID tag. Even if someone copies the physical key, they can't start the engine since the correct rfid won't be in it. In other words, barring duplicating the (encrypted) rfid AND the hunk of metal, my car can't be started without a pretty large hack job. This is a much better idea than a USB key... multiple modes of verification and all.

The downside is it costs $50 or so to get a new key if I lose it =)

Renault

[Anonymous Coward]

All current renault cars use a key of this type: it's and rfid card that you put in a slot or, depending on the model, keep in your pocket.
I have the model you have to put in a slot and it has worked reliably for the last two years.

Re:Renault

[Baki]

I have one too, of the type you can keep in your pocket. It is very convenient: you walk to the car and can simply open it and press a button to start the engine. The (rfid) card must be somewhere in the vicinity of the car for it to be unlocked automatically when you touch a door handle.

The card also provides some settings, such as airco temperature, chair position, navigation system data and other preferences. I assume each key (I have three) has its own ID, and the cars computer remembers the preferences by each card ID.

Server down, here are some other news sites

[mpieters]

The server doesn't respond anymore, no coral cache is available either, and mirrordot only has the text of the article and broken images, so here are some links to other sites reporting on the concept car, with pictures:

• Autoweek: Mazda's Sassou three-door hatchback concept to bow at Frankfurt
• Automobile.com: 2005 Mazda Sassou Concept
• Softpedia: Mazda Sassou Loses Its Keys!

Secure environments

[Anonymous Coward]

Great, for work I regularly have to go into a secure environment, in which I most emphatically can't bring in anything like a USB-drive...

Christ, they'll have that thing hacked

[Anonymous Coward]

by the end of the first month. That is a complete abortion waiting to happen. Within 6 months, it'll be the most stolen car in America, displacing Honda.

Ba-dum-ching!

[Swamii]

Cue the "it better not be running Windows, else I'll get a blue winshield of death" jokes.

Actually, with all the dupes posted recently about the Create Mp3 player being shipped with a virus, cue the "I hope they scanned them for viruses first, unlike Creative" jokes.

dd to make a spare key?

[tscheez]

so what, duping a key is dd if=/dev/sda of=/dev/sdb?

Keys in Secure areas

[Sir_Stinksalot]

Now I won't even be able to take my car keys into secure areas. It's bad enough that every cdr I take in can never come out but now my keys too!

Re:Keys in Secure areas

[tang]

This is exactly what I thought initially when reading this. This would be a major PITA for people working in secure areas. With cell phones, I can just leave it in my car...but I can't just leave my car keys in the car...

Re:Keys in Secure areas

[Anonymous Coward]

You know there is rewritable memory in modern car electronics.

Time for a secure valet - takes your car and never brings it back!

Cars

[Anonymous Coward]

Think about this innovation creating a lot more tech jobs - now we will be cleaning out malware, adware and scumware not only from computers but cars as well.

On a side note - updating car software is way overdue, lets hope this will be the first step. Optimal operational parameters on a new car might not be so optimal in 5-10 years. Just treat car like any peace of hardware - if you keep it around for a while flashing its bios is not a bad idea.

Sensational Headline...

[rAiNsT0rm]

nah, couldn't be on /., could it?

Sweet Jeebus, its a freakin concept car. No one is "switching" to anything.

Nothing to see here, move along.

So what? My Prius doesn't even need a key

[Anonymous Coward]

...at least not one I have to insert anywhere.

if only...

[Anonymous Coward]

Now if they can only make brake rotors that last more than 35000 km....sigh

Why do you assume the connector will be the same?

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't assume the connector will be the USB-A connector you find on PC-compatible thumb drives.

They could add USB functionality to a traditional key form, if they wanted to.

Keys/Dongles

[cyberfunk2]

I wouldnt worry about these keys getting duplicated easily...

My guess is that they use a system similar to hardware dongles that you buy for uber-expensive software.

Companies like http://www.aladdin.com/ make these keys for a living and from what i hear, they are NOT easy to crack/copy. Any cracks are invariably done by very talented people with debuggers in software, not by duplicating the hardware key.

So basically, if you can modify the software of the car, then perhaps you'll be able to steal it. But that would require flashing the onboard system, which would certainly need further authentication (IIRC you need some sort of dealer code to update the onboard software), and time, during which you'd likely be noticed with your laptop hooked up to a roadside car with the hood open.

To prevent even that sort of problem, I can easily imagine them putting the necessary algorithms/data on a non-flashable chip, akin to the TPM chips in computers.

All Your Mazda Belong to Us

[Wicked187]

Mwa ha ha

Re:All Your Mazda Belong to Us

[Anonymous Coward]

You forgot the obligatory "are" in there.

All your Mazda are belong to us.

Otherwise, the grammar is too good.

Sigh

[$RANDOMLUSER]

I suppose this means I'm not going to make any money with my floppy-disc car key patent.

Does it NEED to be fixed???

[kizzbizz]

My key has lasted me ages in my car. I've never lost it, never broken it, never had it swiped. Nothing. For me, a plain old fashioned metal spike works perfectly.

Now, I'm not saying that it couldn't be IMPROVED upon. For isntance, maybe a key that not only has a mechanical part but also a thumb pad to make sure it's YOU using it (just throwing the idea out there). Maybe that would work better than a plain old spike. But a USB key? How does it improve? Would you build a new kind of fancy high-tech bicycle that went half as fast and was twice as hard to pedal? I don't think so. The USB key is the same- it doesn't IMPROVE anything (if anything, it allows more points of failure). Maybe allow a USB port to upload driving instructions/music, but it doesn't HAVE to be part of the key.

Re:Hot Wiring: No Match for a Thief

[pezpunk]

touch a lead from the battery to the starter case and the car [i]will[/i] start. USB won't stop that.

Anyone remember the mp3mobile?

[Phreakiture]

The British dude who created the Empeg in-dash MP3 player (which, I believe, was the first commercially-available in-dash MP3 player... and it runs Linux) originally developed it to use in his Mazda MX5 (Miata in North America). Is it karma that Mazda would, therefore, be the ones to try this out?

Why not go hybrid? / USB hacks? Nah..

[RUFFyamahaRYDER]

From looking at the pictures, I think this would be a nice looking little hybrid vehicle.

And as for the USB for the key... I seriously doubt they would put the encoded information to start the car on the USB drive. It sounds to me like they attached a USB drive to a chip that starts the car. So even though they are on the same board they are completely separate so it isn't easily hacked or copied.

You're not blind, it's not in the article.

[amrust]

There is absolutely nothing in the posted article about USB key actually being used to start the car.

So, Yes. I did RTFA. I'm just wondering if the submitter did.

Re:You're not blind, it's not in the article.

[Shin Chan]

What, you scrolled right to the end? [i]Designed for "net-savvy youngsters", Mazda's new concept hatchback, Sassou, ditches the traditional cylinder lock key system in favor of USB flash drives. In addition to starting the engine, the flash drives can be used to transfer driving directions for long trips along with the latest songs for the day to the Sassou's internal hard drive.[/i]

Re:You're not blind, it's not in the article.

[amrust]

Oops.

I read the hyperlink about the flash drives, not the one about the car itself. The info about starting the car is in the 1st link presented, not in the 2nd. Misleading, sure. But I stand corrected. Thanks!

My apologies.

hackfest

[oglueck]

Looking forward for a real hardware hack then. Maybe use a laptop and USB cable to hack a Mazda? The question is not IF it happens, but WHEN.

sounds like we're...

[KillShill]

well on our way to have "Trusted" cars.

imagine if they can remotely revoke your car from being able to start, or even from preventing you opening the doors.

give it 15 years or so.

when DRM and Insidious Computing grab a firm foothold in the computer industry, nobody will bat an eyelash to oppose such crap. it'll be in the name of protecting you from the bad guys or terrorists, also national security.

yeah you know it. don't let them turn up the temperature slowly... when they aren't looking, turn it up full blast.

black boxes that record your auto activities without user knowledge. gps tracking systems integreted into new models...

yeah it's a good time to be a "consumer" now.

Re:Hot Wiring: No Match for a Thief

[cgadd]

No, without commands from the computer to fire the injectors, etc, it won't start.

Designer BS

[wiredlogic]

This is typical design "styling" team BS. This will never be used in a practical product for the very simple fact that an electrical contact based interface like the USB connector can't stand up to the abuse keys sustain over the 10+ year life of a car. This is up there with the NS2000's "race inspired" start button.

There is of course practical value in having a USB interface to a radio/digital media player but not as a security key for such a large asset.

Being closely tied to Ford, Mazda will use their existing RF transponder keys if they aren't already. These represent a much better authentication system that USB.

Re:Designer BS

[surprise_audit]

Ummmm, how about building the RF transponder into a USB key?? The transponder still operates the car, and the USB key can transfer MP3s and stuff as promised. If the key contacts fail, it wouldn't stop the car from working, and the RF transponder could be moved to a new keyfob by the dealer.

Re:Hot Wiring: No Match for a Thief

[networkBoy]

um... bbcode issues aside,

You could plug this into your notebook and run millions of codes in a brute force attempt, or you could put a sniffer on the USB wires and simply re-play the code for next time.

So rather than having to hotwire, this should make it easier (at some levels) to steal a car.
-nB

USB House Lock

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the lock on my house should use a USB key!

We don't need software to start cars

[John Seminal]

How long before someone hacks it to:

A: Start multiple cars that they own

B: Start other people's cars

Not that long. By having USB devices to start cars, soon hackers will be doing more than writing viruses and "testing" websites. They will be stealing your car.

But this is a larger problem than meets the eye. If software is used to start a car, how long until government gets creative? What kinds of algorthims can be put in the car computer?

• If there is a gas outage, the new flash only allows the car to be driven 100 miles per week, then you can't start it until next week?
• Since there is an algorithm that makes each car unique, how long until the car broadcasts its VIN number to anyone who wants to listen? Will cops knock on your door because you parked in a mall, next to a store that had shoplifters?
• How long until my car decides I am driving to fast, and calls the police to mail me a ticket. Before you write this off as never_gonna_happen, consider that many highways now have radar guns attached to cameras, and they mail out tickets in the mail.
• And how long until a bank robber and hacker changes your flash to mask the car that robbed the bank. Imagine the extra people the police will need to hire to straighten out the messes. And imagine how many more tickets they will need to write to pay for those new employees.

The only good thing for software like this is we can keep track of kids. We can program cars that are started with certian USB keys, that the car will stop if it drives to a certain area. For example, we can have zones the car is not allowed to enter. We can also have software on the computer, to know what family member has the car, and where they are. Maybe we can even set up cars, so if the 16 year old daughter is going out with her friends, that the radio really listens to what is going on in the car to make sure she is not picking up a 18 year old drop out weed head. And if we hear something we don't like, we can drive to where the car is with out shotgun and have an old fashioned lynching.

Re:We don't need software to start cars

[jburgess]

You're complaining about invasive government control, and then proposing using the same level of invasive control on your children. How about trying a little thing called "parenting" before putting your kids in lockdown? Teach them to ask before using the car, to be selective about the quality of people they consider friends, and not to lie to you when you ask them where they are going. Raise decent kids, and this level of control is not needed.

Re:We don't need software to start cars

[sobachatina]

the car will stop if it drives to a certain area

Do you really want the car to stall when your child drives into some seedy forbidden neighborhood?

How long until my car decides I am driving to fast, and calls the police to mail me a ticket.

...

And imagine how many more tickets they will need to write

You seem to be a little paranoid about speeding tickets? Perhaps you have a speeding problem? I'm signing you up with your local police speeding ticket subscription plan!

Re:We don't need software to start cars

[merlin_jim]

How long until my car decides I am driving to fast, and calls the police to mail me a ticket. Before you write this off as never_gonna_happen, consider that many highways now have radar guns attached to cameras, and they mail out tickets in the mail.

In some states, rental companies already do this.

Re:We don't need software to start cars

[kent_eh]

...Or reports to the authorities that your vehicle passed thru an area frequented by prostitutes a few times last week (due to, ferinstance, a construction detour - a fact that wasn't reported).

Re:We don't need software to start cars

[AKAImBatman]

How long until my car decides I am driving to fast, and calls the police to mail me a ticket. Before you write this off as never_gonna_happen, consider that many highways now have radar guns attached to cameras, and they mail out tickets in the mail.

It's important to note that this sort of thing is far more ubiquitous in Europe than it is in the US. The US laws about entrapment, personal property, and privacy tend to preclude these sorts of measures.

Re:We don't need software to start cars

[The Angry Mick]

The US laws about entrapment, personal property, and privacy tend to preclude these sorts of measures.

Well...they do for now anyway...

Re:We don't need software to start cars

[jlapier]

But this is a larger problem than meets the eye. If software is used to start a car, how long until government gets creative? What kinds of algorthims can be put in the car computer?

Awesome, someone let me know when the open source CarOS comes out.
Anyways, forget all that computer crap - I think car-tech should be moving us towards flying cars. We're 20 years overdue for those.

Re:We don't need software to start cars

[Anonymous Coward]

The only good thing for software like this is we can keep track of kids.

So we all have privacy rights, but not our kids?

If your 16-year-old wants to pick up a "18 year old drop out weed head", she will find a way. And if not, she can do it in two years no matter what.

Good parenting is about teaching values that last a lifetime, not enforcing rules for a few years.

Re:We don't need software to start cars

[twiddlingbits]

There are already devices you can put into a car that uses GPS to track the car and you can see it's whereabouts on a web site. There is also the "black box" in your car (2003 and newer) that now records how fast you were going and the position of the brake, etc. This data can be accessed and used by investigtors (police and insurance). If someone says they saw a car like yours driving erractically and that caused an accident they can come to your house, dump the system and tell if it was you. And of course if you have an accident and say I was doing the speed limit, the insurance company comes over reads the data and finds out you were hitting 80, then it's claim denied. Not a thing you can do, and you can't disable the box. Here in TX, starting today, car stickers have to say if the car is equipped with those sort of boxes.

Re:We don't need software to start cars

[westlake]

How about trying a little this little thing called "parenting" before putting your kids in lockdown?

The thing is, even good kids make mistakes. There are times when trust just isn't enough.

Re:We don't need software to start cars

[lucas_picador]

And if we hear something we don't like, we can drive to where the car is with out shotgun and have an old fashioned lynching.

Let me get this straight... you're against government coming up with efficient highway-safety enforcement, but you're all for overprotective fathers throwing an "old fashioned lynching" when their little angels start mingling with (I loved this line) an "18 year old drop out weed head"... presumably a black guy, if you really want this lynching to be old fashioned in true American style.

You're right, John -- you're not ready for this technology. For that matter, how are you dealing with the "movable type" and "indoor plumbing" thing? Because as far as I can tell, you're not dealing well with the 20th century, much less the 21st.

Re:We don't need software to start cars

[Bagheera]

Not that long. By having USB devices to start cars, soon hackers will be doing more than writing viruses and "testing" websites. They will be stealing your car.

Assuming, of course, they can get past the physical layer to actually access the ignition system. This is a USB to start the car, not to open it. Since the other site was alread /.ed, I don't know what they're actually planning.

Fact is, they need physical access to steal your car, and it's not difficult to implement the system so making a "copy" of the key would be very difficult.


But this is a larger problem than meets the eye. If software is used to start a car, how long until government gets creative? What kinds of algorthims can be put in the car computer?

        * If there is a gas outage, the new flash only allows the car to be driven 100 miles per week, then you can't start it until next week?


And they'll upload this into your physical device how, exactly?



        * Since there is an algorithm that makes each car unique, how long until the car broadcasts its VIN number to anyone who wants to listen? Will cops knock on your door because you parked in a mall, next to a store that had shoplifters?


That's seperate from a USB car key, now isn't it. Putting a transponder on a car is ALREADY being done. That's essentially what a FastPass is now. Ping it, and it gives you a serial number.


        * How long until my car decides I am driving to fast, and calls the police to mail me a ticket. Before you write this off as never_gonna_happen, consider that many highways now have radar guns attached to cameras, and they mail out tickets in the mail.


You mean like an automated radar system that takes pictures and sends you a ticket? Old news. Plus (as others have noted) some rental car companies already do that with GPS now.



  * And how long until a bank robber and hacker changes your flash to mask the car that robbed the bank. Imagine the extra people the police will need to hire to straighten out the messes. And imagine how many more tickets they will need to write to pay for those new employees.



How, exactly, do they change MY flash to mimic their car? How is it going to take "extra people to sort out the mess" when this magic transponder is tracking two cars at the same time, one of which is obviously mine because it's the one parked at my house, while the other one obviously ISN'T mine because it was busy robbing a bank at the time.


The only good thing for software like this is we can keep track of kids. We can program cars that are started with certian USB keys, that the car will stop if it drives to a certain area. For example, we can have zones the car is not allowed to enter. We can also have software on the computer, to know what family member has the car, and where they are. Maybe we can even set up cars, so if the 16 year old daughter is going out with her friends, that the radio really listens to what is going on in the car to make sure she is not picking up a 18 year old drop out weed head. And if we hear something we don't like, we can drive to where the car is with out shotgun and have an old fashioned lynching.

Ok, repeat after me. "USB is not GPS." If you're going to get paranoid, at least keep your technologies straight. You're essentially ranting here and it doesn't wash. Numerous manufacturers already use microchips in their keys to effectively make sure they're the right key for the car. This USB key is really nothing more then adding some accessible memory to an existing technology.

Insightful?

Paranioid.

Mazda's doing something reasonably cool here. There's nothing wrong with it.

Re:We don't need software to start cars

[AKAImBatman]

If someone says they saw a car like yours driving erractically and that caused an accident they can come to your house, dump the system and tell if it was you.

Except for the fact that they need a warrant before they can do that. Illegal Search and Seizure *does* still mean something, despite the Patriot Act and other nonsense. (Although I have a feeling that the Patriot Act would be repealed in a hurry if it was abused by law enforcement.)

Re:We don't need software to start cars

[timmyf2371]

This is very true, however if kids don't get the opportunity to learn from their mistakes then how are they meant to grow up and become sensible, normal human beings?

Re:We don't need software to start cars

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course. That's the reason why if I'm driving too fast in Europe I get a ticket, and if I'm in USA I go to jail.

Re:We don't need software to start cars

[cow-orker]

Will cops knock on your door because you parked in a mall, next to a store that had shoplifters?

Well yes, they will. How are they gonna find you? Oh, they use amazing high technology! They read a globally unique identifier from your car using an advanced optical scanner. You wouldn't believe it, but your car offers its identifier to anyone possessing the right kind of scanner, and billions of them exist worldwide. That high tech part is mass produced and installed in literally every car worldwide. It is called a licence plate.

Come on, just because you can copy your key without being a locksmith doesn't enable the Black Hats to steal your car. It's only the key, fercrissake!!!

Re:We don't need software to start cars

[AKAImBatman]

That's the reason why if I'm driving too fast in Europe I get a ticket, and if I'm in USA I go to jail.

Why do you people even troll this crap? In fact, where do you even get such an idea? A bad Hollywood movie?

As far as I know, there is absolutely NO way to go to jail simply from speeding. (Reckless or druken driving is a whole other matter.) In every state I've ever been in, you just get a ticket. The only exception to that is if you're going exceptionally high speeds - usually defined as 25+ miles per hour over the speed limit - in which case your license may be automatically revoked.

Re:We don't need software to start cars

[Anonymous Coward]

As far as I know, there is absolutely NO way to go to jail simply from speeding.

You can go to jail for simply being overparked, if you don't pay your ticket. Any parking ticket or moving violation which remains unpaid will trigger the automatic issuance of a bench warrant for your arrest. The police won't come looking for you, but when you get pulled over that second time for speeding, you will be arrested, hauled into jail, and your car will be impounded unless someone else is with you to drive it home.

That's the way it works in Minnesota, anyway.

Personally, I think an arrest warrant is an outrageous response to an unpaid parking ticket or moving violation. For misdemeanors, the state ought to have to hire a collection agency just like anyone else. But that's just me.

Re:We don't need software to start cars

[ErikZ]

So you're saying, you can't go to jail for speeding, unless you're speeding really fast.

Sounds like going to jail for speeding to me.

Re:We don't need software to start cars

[Kombat]

In some states, rental companies already do this.

Absolutely false. I presume you're referring to the Budget dealer in the US that used GPS to detect when their customers were exceeding the speed limit excessively, and then charged them an extra fee on their rental charge.

This is not a "ticket." A ticket entails demerit points on your license, which can lead to license suspensions and other disciplinary action. This type of punishment can only be doled out by law enforcement agencies.

Not rental car companies.

Re:We don't need software to start cars

[AKAImBatman]

So you're saying, you can't go to jail for speeding, unless you're speeding really fast.

Read what I wrote again. And again. And again. Until you get the part about "you're not going to jail". Unless for some reason you think that having your license revoked is the same as going to jail?

Re:We don't need software to start cars

[mrchaotica]

Actually, you do get arrested if you refuse to accept (i.e., sign) your ticket.

Re:We don't need software to start cars

[AKAImBatman]

Then you're not getting arrested for speeding then, are you? :-)

Re:We don't need software to start cars

[StarsAreAlsoFire]

Oregon law stops defining financial tickets for speeds greater than 25 over, and starts declaring jail time.

You WILL go to jail if you are caught going 100+ mph. Will. Unless you talk *real* smooth.

California, at least near Riverside, it is 'required' that you be booked for anything over 100, and your car towed.

I recall nothing about lost licenses. That is actually the one thing that is almost impossible in the US.

Re:We don't need software to start cars

[juhaz]

Yeah, clearly we, the un-civilized non-Americans can't have such laws.

Oh wait, we do, and we haven't (yet) diluted them with patriot anti-boogeyman bullshit.

Re:We don't need software to start cars

[Anonymous Coward]

i got caught doing 160 mph in florida, but since i was a tourist i got away with a ticket - but the officer told me that under normal circumstances that i would go straight to jail for this - and that and that a warrent for my arrest would be issiued if i didnt pay the fine

Re:We don't need software to start cars

[AKAImBatman]

I recall nothing about lost licenses. That is actually the one thing that is almost impossible in the US.

Huh. Well, here in the Midwest, you just lose your license for going 25+ over. I know because I almost triggered the revocation when I was younger and stupider. (Actually, I learned about it later in a voluntary points reduction class, but I digress.) They won't arrest you, at least in the midwest, simply for speeding. Of course, if you're going *extremely* fast they may get you for reckless driving. Which, again, is not the same thing as speeding.

Re:We don't need software to start cars

[AKAImBatman]

Yeah, clearly we, the un-civilized non-Americans can't have such laws.

Probably the most enlightening comment I ever heard about Europe vs. US freedoms was in a discussion about the speed cameras in Britain. Now Britian is generally considered a *very* free country, and is actually the very basis for the US system of law. However, one gentleman made the comment that he was surprised that no British equivalent of a redneck had taken a gun to a few of those cameras. To which it was replied that it was not generally legal in Britain for citizens to own handguns.

I can't speak for all US readers, but I was rather shocked by this statement. In the US we take for granted the rights we have, and we seem to assume that they extend to other "free" countries simply because they have followed our example. But this simply isn't true, and "freedom" means different things to different systems of law.

The US system may be seen as "less efficient" and "screwed up" by our European brothers, but at times like this I realize just how free we actually are.

Re:We don't need software to start cars

[AK Marc]

The charge they arrest you for isn't "not signing." They can and do arrest people for speeding. I know cases of people being arrested for speeding going less than 5 mph above the limit. Yes, they were tossed into a cop car and driven to the judge, where the criminal offence of speeding was adjudicated right there and then. It is somewhat common when dealing with out-of-towners they want to make sure pay the tickets. I even posted $5000 bond for a friend that was arrested for no license. Yes, hauled out of the car in cuffs, thrown in jail, and not let out until $5000 bail was posted, all for a $250 fine. It was the only way to guarantee that she'd pay the $250 fine, since she was out of state. And they'd have been well within their rights to do the same thing if it had been a speeding offense. That you don't know of anyone that has been thrown in jail for speeding (and I do), doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Re:We don't need software to start cars

[AK Marc]

As far as I know, there is absolutely NO way to go to jail simply from speeding. (Reckless or druken driving is a whole other matter.) In every state I've ever been in, you just get a ticket. The only exception to that is if you're going exceptionally high speeds - usually defined as 25+ miles per hour over the speed limit - in which case your license may be automatically revoked.

In TX, you can't lose your license for a single offence, unless you are drunk or hit something. Yes, with a clean record you can run a red light in a school zone while going 150 mph backwards blindfolded, and you can't lose your license. But they can throw you in jail. They can throw you in jail for "speeding" even if you are traveling below the posted limit. Just because you have experience with only one state doesn't mean that you are correct for any state other than yours. Next, you'll be telling me that left on red from a 2-way to a one-way street is illegal, when I know it is perfectly legal here (not TX, if you were wondering), and at least 3 other states.

Re:We don't need software to start cars

[bcmm]

Entrapment? Do you mean to say that you think speed cameras encourage you to go faster?

Or do you think that entrapment laws say you shouldn't be in trouble for breaking the law (and this isn't the DMCA, this is a reasonable law to prevent you from accidentally killing another person) if you didn't know you were going to get caught?

If you shoplift, and a policeman you hadn't seen comes round the corner and arrests you, has your privacy been violated?

What's so special about speeding then?

Also Comes With...

[kilocomp]

Norton Car Protect 2006
With the following new features:
1. Virus protection- Prevents you from being an idiot and loading viruses on your car
2. Firedoor- keep intruders out by emitting flames from you door
3. Billboard Blocker- rockets are emitted at billboards before you have a chance to read them
4. Maintenance Checker*- provides full maintenance check to keep your car up and running
5. Free Trial of Engine Boost 2006- Increase your engine's performance by doubling your virtual horse power.

*Currently maintenance checker only can tell if you are our of gas.

Re:Also Comes With...

[Anonymous Coward]

Do I get a fee year of upgrades?

Re:Also Comes With...

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope just 90 days then it is 19.99/month.

Re:Also Comes With...

[phoenix321]

Can you say "Freudian slip"? :) I know you can.

um, no

[illtron]

So what, every time somebody comes out with a concept car, the headline will declare that these things are for sure?

1. USB key as a car key is retarded. Give me a wireless fob or something, not some clumsy usb key.

2. Did you hear that GM is switching to hydrogen? Yeah, they've had a concept car for about three years now, meaning they're switching to hydrogen.

3. Shoot me. Please.

Re:Hot Wiring: No Match for a Thief

[VAXcat]

Yup, cgadd's got it right, and ya won't get any sparks either...there's a difference between an old style car with the electronics doodads added as a bag on the the side, and a new one where the electronics are integrated in from the ground up.

Ok.. I read this article...

[iceT]

No where does it say it uses the USB key to START IT.. It says it has an "interface port for multimedia applications"...

The article isn't that long.. maybe we could read it a little slower next time, huh?

ggrreeaattt...

[nealrs]

wait until you unplug it before you turn off your car. itll corupt itself. rendering you unable to open your whip or drive. on the other hand... if it lets me carry my music for the ride with me, thats kinda neat. until that gets corrupted too.

Future movie scene

[British]

I'm sure we'll see a movie in the near future where someone with a pda just hooks up a USB cable into the slot, and away they drive. It will have a bunch of numbers flashing on the PDA screen and in 3 minutes, it unlocks.

Or, maybe people will leech power from it. Hook up a USB hub to a parked car and power a light or something, just because you can.

Deus Ex Future

[dobesov]

Once i made the comment to a friend that if only we started using USB interfaces to unlock doors or start cars, i could finally have a working nanokey device... muahahahahaha! so far Deus Ex 1... still prophetic....

Standardized public key authentication for cars

[Wonko]

I want my car to authenticate drivers just like SSH does. Everyone could carry a standard fob with their private key on it, and maybe some other people's public keys. If I want to let a friend borrow my car I just load his public key on my car and tell my car that he is authorized to drive.

Take it a step furthur. You can authorize a valet to open the doors and drive the car with a low rev limiter so he cannot go tooling around town.

The best part about this is that if I lose my fob I only have to remove my public key from the car.

You can take this as far as you like. You can make this same system work for locks in your home and office. I the system is remotely accessible you can do neat things with it... You could temporarily authorize people while you aren't home.

The people who sell copies of keys probably won't like it, though :).

Re:Hot Wiring: No Match for a Thief

[M1FCJ]

Simple. Kidnap the owner, get the car keys off him, cut his digits off until he tells you the code, if there is one. Drop him at the first corner and speed off with the car to a location where you can change the license plate, serial under the bonnet and the security mechanism at your time.

It happens. It is usually safer just to get your car stolen. Insurance will pay it out in any case.

Key? What key?

[NobodyExpects]

Why should we all like the idea of having to stick something into the ignition? That's almost as bad as finding a way to see if the thing has breasts... A Toyota Prius doesn't even need a key, just the RFID keyfob...

Re:Key? What key?

[phoenix321]

It's not about mechanical or other devices, it's about WEAR and TEAR after heavy use. The Prius keyfob almost never leaves your pocket, the car unlocks if you're near and locks if you walk away, fine.

The Mazda on the other NEEDS that USB stick plugged in to run. And then you have all sorts of people in the world who simply need to unlock/start/stop/lock their car a dozen times per day. Which means after a typical working year around 2500 plug-ins and pull-outs. If those USB devices, plug and socket, aren't built a hundred times stronger than your garden variety USB port and stick, the car key will never survive more than 2 years. No matter how clumsy you are (and most people are clumsy at least one or two days per year), the socket will wear out, the connection leads will lose contact or static electricity kills something inside. Remember the little shocks you sometimes get when touching a car? Static electricity. Some cars deliver more static electricity than others I suppose, but mine zaps me all the time. Not to mention isolating shoe soles on synthetic carpeting. Zapp. You watched Office Space? Good.

Morale of the story: things that are sensitive to static electricity and not hard wearing shouldn't be used as everyday access tokens for important things like cars and house doors. Make all the electronics inside a wireless keyfob and everything's fine. No wear on the connectors, no point of contact for static electricity. Everything else is bust and is in danger outside the dry home or office environment.

Re:Key? What key?

[Reziac]

I've been using the same vehicle key since 1978. That's right, it is 27 years old and it has never been replaced. It has been fried in the sun, run over, dropped in the toilet, frozen to -65F, xrayed at the airport, and despite all this use and abuse, it still works.

Not only that, but if it ever stops working, the reason will be obvious -- it'll be broken in half. Whereas you may have no hint that your USB key has failed, until you're stuck in the middle of nowhere with a car that won't start. And what happens if the startup data gets corrupted??

The only upside I can see is that it should be relatively easy to make perfect spare copies of your own key. Of course, that means that any unscrupulous parking valet with a laptop PC can do the same. Just wait til house keys are USB flash units too. Then we'll see REAL fun.

not everything USB

[micr050ft]

everything usb's usb webserver has crashed

Viruses

[pt99par]

The key can also be used to transfer things like driving instructions or music to the car's hard drive.

Or worms and viruses..

The question is...

[tbcpp]

Yes, but does it run Linux?

Re:Hot Wiring: No Match for a Thief

[Irish_Samurai]

Or some guy mods his key to attach to his phone so he can start his car with his cell phone's WiFi connection, and then wonders who the hell keeps starting his car when he's not there.

dude...

[hangareighteen]

I'm so going to hack your car.

Hacking punishment.

[Anonymous Coward]

Wonder which would have a greater penalty?

A) Car jacking.

B) Hacking into a car.

People have a rational fear of guns and an unrational fear of "bad" computer geeky smart people doing things they don't understand.

you dont need no stinkin key for free coke

[ikea5]

http://www.i-hacked.com/content/view/12/48/

Why possession based Key?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why are we still stuck on possession based keying. USB requires you to have something to start the car just as a key did. Now while security might be increased, possession is still required and reliability is probably decreased.

I prefer knowledge based keying.

The distinct advantages:
-> You can't loose the key. You could forget it
      but that is easy and cost free to "back-up"
      your key code. That means no more griping in
      the morning "Where are my damn keys?"
-> No cost for "copying" the key. Everyone in
      your household could have the key without any
      extra expense.
-> Improved security over tumbler lock keying
      since all you have to do is break the
      mechanism or "hot wire it"
-> It would be easy to implement special access
      keys. For instance keys that expire if
      you want to lend the car to someone without
      giving them your key. Key that have time
      access restrictions for such things as
      teenagers.
-> Trivial and cost free to change the key if
      you feel it has been comprimised.

I for one frown on this USB key for some of the reliability reasons previously stated and also that I would not be allowed to bring the key into work since I work for a defense contractor.

But...

[ChrisF79]

This is just a concept car, people. It's only an idea that may never see the light of day... much like Windows Vista.

Likely Harware Description

[mpapet]

I would be very surprised if it was a COTS flash drive.

Most likely it is a smart card module (microprocessor) in a USB package.

Atmel makes one, (used to be called a 6464c USB) and I'm sure the other smart card manufacturers have something like it.

If it's a secure memory module, I'd be more worried. If it's an actual smart card microprocessor it will take a little while for the bad guys to catch up.

OT there is some very cool new flash memory cards with a smart card module built into the card. Developers can partition the flash and control access to it from the smart card module.

Durability is more than physical toughness.

[leshert]

Given the ratio of usb-drives-I've-owned to usb-drives-I've-killed-presumably-from-ESD (which currently sits at 1:1), I'd be more worried about non-physical threats to the integrity of the device.

Last time I zapped a usb drive, I drove home and burned a CD from the backup I'd made. That might be problematic in this case.

Smart Key

[alecks]

I just bought an '05 Toyota Avalon that has the "smart key" system, which is very simliar to what you're saying. Don't think it's RFID, but it works the same. i keep the keys in my pocket at all times, when i'm near the car, it knows it and allows me to unlock just by touching the handle. When i'm inside the car, i can start it with a push of a button.
I love it.

Re:Hot Wiring: No Match for a Thief

[TobyWong]

Real thieves don't hotwire anyhow. They back up the tow truck and tow the car away, engine imobilizer and all. In broad daylight even. You don't need to start it to chop it into pieces.

If they REALLY wanted to do it they could still "hotwire" the newer cars by bringing a seperate matching key/column computer and splicing it into the car but why bother with this hassle when you can just tow?

And viruses!

[Dracolytch]

Don't forget all the cool viruses that you can transfer to your car too! Great idea!

~D

Re:Sorry

[FragHARD]

Makes me wonder where you are supposed to stick it!

Key Privledges

[nonsequitor]

For the sake of arguement lets ignore the possible ways the user can hack this.

It would be really cool if for say a family car you could have unique keys, one for each kid of driving age, and a master key, issued to the owner.

Then have it configurable that certain keys only work during certain times of the day, and track car usage stats based on the key used to start it.

Which of your children speed? Which key is used when putting in gas?

Maybe not ....

[taniwha]

I have an electronic key for my Prius - when we bought it we got 2 - with the strong warning "lose it and it will cost $1000 to replace" - being able to make my own backups might be a very good thing

great idea for webserver hack...

[Deitheres]

I'm just waiting for someone to start a webserver that runs on a Furby :-P

Concept Car!

[Anonymous Coward]

So nobody seems to have pointed out that, at least acording to the first link (Second one is already dead) that this is a CONCEPT car that they are showing at the Frankfurt Auto Show.... So the debate can rage forever, but it's all pointless.

Not Only Is This A Bad Idea... but...

[http101]

not only do we know where you're going, where you came from and what you're saying (test, test, is this thing on?), but we also uploaded a virus to your car, but we also snagged the security image used to start your car, and we don't take plastic...

whoo!

[Zebra_X]

planned obselecence reaches a new milestone. really how long is that key going to *really* last. 10 years? i don't think so...

Re:whoo!

[The Cisco Kid]

Yeah but its easy enough to make a backup.. In fact.. Hrm.. Your corner hardware store is going to need some new tech at its key-copy counter.. (At least for the non-geeks that need their keys copied)

Audio USB

[crimoid]

'cool and promoting a positive state of mind'

How about a USB slot and built in MP3 capabilities in a factory car stereo. That would be cool.

Flash Drive...

[korbin_dallas]

Screw Mazda, get one of these...
Ninja ZX-6R
http://www.kawasaki.com/kawasaki_main/images/produ cts/motorcycle/1478_800.jpg

Parent is a troll

[Anonymous Coward]

Cut&paste from here , with a little added idiocy.

What a waste of life this poster is

Backups?

[aj50]

So does this mean you can backup your car keys on your pc and make any number of copies of it on another usb drive? Could you store more than one set of keys on it?

Defcon just got better

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm going to have to fly out and compete in "Hack the Mazda"
I just hope it's an RX-8 and I get to keep it...

No thanks

[nurb432]

No need to increase the complexity of the car just to be 'cool'.

This is bad is sooo many ways..

What ever happened to haveing a mechanical lock and key?

I want to see what they do when your battery dies.

And no, i couldnt get to the FA to see if they had any mechanical backup plans..

Re:No thanks

[sanx]

They'd do the same thing that you do every time the battery in your car dies. Get someone to come round and jump-start you.

'Legacy' keys (the term will come around, never fear) might have the advantage that you can open the car when the battery's stoned ... but you still can't start the bugger.

Light bulbs?

[leathered]

All the light bulbs in my house are Mazdas, does this mean I have to stick a USB key in the wall every time I want light?

Oh wait..

Think a little, people...

[eosp]

Change a couple bytes in a file (maybe, just maybe, a little bit of dd work) and you just got into someone's car.

Digital key signing?

[Meeuw]

Wouldn't it be great to implement enhanced key verification? Sign the key of your co-worker so he can borrow your car for a fixed period? If you lose your key just change the public key stored in your car!

Cruzer Mini

[bhsx]

I've got a Cruizer Mini 1GB that I not only washed last week, I also ran it through the DRYER! As it tumbled out of the dryer with an arm-full of clothes I thought OMG, that's got my latest resume (amongst a GB of other things)! Ran to the 'puter and popped it in. To my astonishment, even the LED still works!
Man, those things aren't as indestructible as a steel key; but I wouldn't worry about destroying it too much. I'd be more worried about someone finding a way to easily copy it (with, I don't know... say... a COMPUTER!) and steal my wheels.

Re:Hot Wiring: No Match for a Thief

[thc69]

New Acura RL just has a key fob that you keep in your pocket. As long as it's near the car, the car will start and run. There is no key, no direct contact. You don't even need to use a key to get in; you merely approach the car (key fob in pocket) and touch the door handle, and it unlocks by the time you've pulled the handle far enough.

I'll bet you could just record and playback the frequency used by it to take the car.

Either way, the usb key is already obsolete.

Re:Hot Wiring: No Match for a Thief

[JFitzsimmons]

I'm almost completely sure that someone competent enough to pull that off would be aware of the security risks. With that said, if the rich guy paid someone to do it instead...

Re:Think of the movie directors!

[vertinox]

When you pulled up on the doorhandle it checked your ID and unlocked. Automatically locked when you got more than 20 feet away, and only had a push-button for a starter.

What?! And put all those horror and thriller movie directors out of a job because they can't make movies about people franticaly fumbling with their keys as the monster or killer slowly closes in on them.

Jeez... Cell phones were hard enough on the industry...

Overly technical solution for you

[geekoid]

In 'Box' with a lock on it at the front desk.

Please, you are trying so hard to make a problem you are making yourself look stupid.

Re:Overly technical solution for you

[Copperhead]

Sorry, won't let us have that either. Too much of a bomb threat. I asked for that when they banned cell phones. Thanks for the insult... I'll store it with the others.

"Keying" cars?

[fbg111]

Now, jamming chewed bubble-gum into your hated enemy's car keyhole takes on a new and devious meaning...

Symmetric? I think not...

[Anonymous Coward]

Car keys can be put in either way.
USB you may have to flip around.
Stupid design; mediocrity rules!

Bad News

[geekoid]

Most drivers still need some instruction.

I keep trying to give good advice, unfortuantly I have had to compress the information so it fits onto one fingure.

Re:Hot Wiring: No Match for a Thief

[Irish_Samurai]

Maybe not. I have a programmer I work with who knows the ins and outs of C code, but knows shit about setting up a network. I went to his house and found his WiFi hub completely open. He said he thought it came "protected out of the box. It said it had a firewall." He Never knew he had to turn the encryption on. And in my opinion, he could get the remote USB key thing to work if he tried.

I will say this though, people competent enough to do such a hack with out knowing the security risks are an anonomoly. So I guess I agree with you...

Ach

[EiZei]

Why cant they just put a separate usb slot for all that transferring stuff and just use a somewhat more secure solution that might not be even so bulky?

'96 Neons

[brakk]

From what I've heard, all 96 neons use the same key. I know of at least a couple that do.

Viruses?

[PhYrE2k2]

This comes at the same time of "Creative MP3 Players Ship With Virus".

To be honest, it's fine if you have a USB key for a radio to bring some MP3s in- make it specific to load MP3s onto the radio...

BUT I _don't_ want the ECU linked to any user-modifyable device. Especially a device that can be put into any computer and have anything done to the data files. What about the ease of reprogramming these devices. Wasn't the whole point of codes on the keys to keep the car even somewhat secure from ease of keymakers and lock-pickers? Imagine just setting codes.

Again No user-modifyable part should be linked to the ECU

Digital security

[phorm]

Except in the case of my keys it wouldn't do much without the chip embedded in the original that enables the ignition... and lots of newer cars support this.

With this, all I need is a laptop or similar usb-enabled device, so it's not just cost but ease-of-copying involved here.

Misleading Title

[vi-rocks]

Don't want to be a "stick-in-the-mud" -- but Mazda Switches To USB Keys is a pretty misleading title.

"What? Mazda is using USB keys in all their cars??"

Ummm, no. Mazda experiments with USB key in concept car would be A LOT better.

usb = worst connector ever

[libra-dragon]

Take a look at any usb port and notice how scratched up the surrounding area is. This connector is an abomination. It seems I'm always putting the usb plug in upside down. Of course I can't be sure if it's upside down or just misaligned... Looking at the plug for the logo doesn't seem to help much --I had a laptop that had the ports upside down.

I doubt anyone can blindly plug in a usb device and achieve better than 90% accuracy. As for the keys to my current car it's ambidextrous, although not the case for my previous car. My proposal for USB 3.0 is to use the connector from an Atari 2600.

Re:usb = worst connector ever

[rampant poodle]

Right about that. I always thought that the PS2 connector was a dumbshit design. Then along came USB. One of the elegant points of a metal key is it is reasonably self aligning. Most modern car keys are symmetricly cut and will work in either of the two possible positions.

Re:usb = worst connector ever

[Anonymous Coward]

90% of the time, when it's a crappy low budget computer I'm called in to repair, guess what it was that's screwed up?

That's right, the crappy USB on the motherboard. It's bad technology in almost every way I can imagine. The hot swapping requires you to use software to stop the usb item before you remove it or it'll cause damage. How many morons do you think don't do this? Items plugged into a USB port that has gone bad can stop your computer from booting up entirely. No two USB errors ever seem to be the same, and last but not least doesn't work very well with old OS's.

Why not design the hardware so you can plug it in when ever you damn well please, and with a clear indication of which way the plug fits. Lord, how I hate USB.

Re:usb = worst connector ever

[cr0sh]

For my 1979 Bronco (fullsize with a V8 - good thing it isn't my daily driver with these gas prices!) my key is double sided - flip it one way to open the doors (there is a notch on the key), flip it the other way to start the vehicle. I had to get it cut this way at a locksmith because the locks on the door were different from the lock on the ignition, and I didn't want to have to mess with multiple keys (and fortunately the locks could work like this, too)...

What about the Direct Injection motor?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the Direct Injection motor is more technically interesting than the silly USB key.

From the article:
"The three cylinder engine features lean burning, direct injection technology designed to meet forthcoming European CO2 regulations and shuts off when idling to aid fuel economy."
Read here for more info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_Direct_Injec tion>

So when I upgrade to the next Mazda...

[exp(pi*sqrt(163))]

...I'll be able to take my high score with me from the previous one. Nice!

Re:Why do you assume the connector will be the sam

[jcr]

Don't assume the connector will be the USB-A connector you find on PC-compatible thumb drives.

Ok, fair enough. We'll see when it comes out, I guess.

-jcr

Transfer things to your car's hard drive?

[Anonymous Coward]

"The key can also be used to transfer things like driving instructions or music to the car's hard drive."

Mazda should team up with Creative. They know how to store things on USB devices that can be transferred to hard drives

Re:Hot Wiring: No Match for a Thief

[FragHARD]

< No, without commands from the computer to fire the injectors>

or the fuel pump or the electronic transmision or the radio!!!

Car for a geek?

[Eminence]

They also clearly think that a typical geek likes small, B-class segment cars which can't boast performance, safety or comfort so they have to discuss how advanced and green their small, weak engine is.

I'm not a geek then, it's official, what a relief...

Now lets see....

[SomeOtherGuy]

I am as techy as the next guy....But why would you take something (a regular old metal key) that work without failure for much longer than your car itself --- and replace it with a USB drive -- that is lucky to last a year or 2?

  I can totally geek out on adding USB ports somewhere on the dash to upload/download songs and maps, etc. into the eye and ear candy pieces of a car. But I must draw the line on something as important as the function that determines if the car starts up or not.

Unnecessary

[Anonymous Coward]

This is just unnecessary. The only reason this exists is for the same reason people build toasters that run Linux. "Hey, isn't this cool???"

Re:Unnecessary

[atomic-penguin]

The only reason this exists is for the same reason people build toasters that run Linux.
 
That's silly nobody would ever need to make toast in a Mazda!

Re:Hot Wiring: No Match for a Thief

[Anonymous Coward]

an old style car with the electronics doodads added as a bag on the the side

I have one of those, with an immobilizer in it. The immobilizer only effects the starter. You can roll-start the car without the keyfob. I'm more than a little PO'd about that. Being used to a car (my old one) that had electrical problems, the first thing I try if a car won't turn over is roll-starting.

I'm sure there's a few thieves that would think of the same thing, And my new car has high joy-ride/stripping potential (older popular model of sport-compact, with lots of OEM parts in good condition)

Re:Hot Wiring: No Match for a Thief

[zakezuke]

If they REALLY wanted to do it they could still "hotwire" the newer cars by bringing a seperate matching key/column computer and splicing it into the car but why bother with this hassle when you can just tow?

If you are in the business of chopping up cars, this is reasonable. But if you are just some jackass who wants to take a joy ride... hot wiring, or hunting around for the magnetic extra key box box is a better solution.

Re:Hot Wiring: No Match for a Thief

[temojen]

Real thieves don't hotwire anyhow.

How is someone with a towtruck any more a thief than someone who walks by and sees the keys in the ignition?

Re:Hot Wiring: No Match for a Thief

[Bega]

In other news, RIAA sues car manufacturer for condoning piracy!

Mechanics 10 step guide to acquiring a new Mazda.

[DigitalReverend]

1. Inset key into USB port on your service computer.
2. Open Windows Explorer, and couble click on the drive letter for the key.
3. Click Edit. Click Select All
4. Click Edit. Click Copy.
5. Remove original key and insert a blank new USB drive into usb slot.
6. Open Up Drive Letter for blank USB drive.
7. Click Edit. Click Paste.
8. Give Customer his key back.
9. Write down Customer's address
10. Wait til some night, drive up to customers house, insert your key into his car and drive off in your brand new Mazda.

A Car With a Hard Drive?

[sehlat]

Could give a whole new meaning to the term "disk crash."

wow

[unfunk]

So how long until somebody hacks this to allow control via USB input device?
You could control your car as if it really were a GTA game! :D

Re:Hot Wiring: No Match for a Thief

[mikael]

The electronics controlling the fuel ignition system will have all signals from the dashboard to the engine encrypted. Any attempts to reverse engineer this will be a violation of the DMCA legislation, Any violators wil be subjected to a large fine, have their car confiscated, and be required to write an essay saying why grand theft auto is bad.

There is no Key

[Displaced Cajun]

boy: Do not try and bend the key. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth.
Neo: What truth?
boy: There is no key.
Neo: There is no key?
boy: Then you'll see, that it is not the key that bends, it is only yourself.
There is no key.

Re:Hot Wiring: No Match for a Thief

[Anonymous Coward]

Disclaimer: I work as an engineer on the firmware in engine controllers.

The replay is not going to be very helpful as its based on a nonce. Each location beacon for the prox includes a one-time nonce that changes the response (at least on the systems I work on).

So you have a pile of digital sludge that the car will happily reject the next time.

Re:Hot Wiring: No Match for a Thief

[ScrewMaster]

I dunno ... I thought GTA was a pretty cool game, actually.

Incredible power of this

[ZakMcCracken]

Imagine if you could just plug that USB card into your PC, log on to your manufacturers' website and check your mileage, view where your car is or has been, order duplicate keys...

Kids will be kids

[Steeltoe]

The thing is, even good kids make mistakes. There are times when trust just isn't enough.

Your mistake is in not allowing for mistakes.

When we remove all mistakes from evolution, what are you really left with?

Same goes for experential knowledge. If you remove all mistakes from a growing consciousness, what is left? What are kids supposed to learn these days..

How shallow can you get? How much fake security are we going to pamper ourselves with, until we're so removed from reality we can hardly piss without someone controlling us?

Besides, if you can't trust your kids, and lend them some freedom, they will grow up either:

*) Frustrated and become your opposite and hate you for it. They will do everything you disallow, and learn to enjoy it.

*) Become like your teaching, and never mind the New World Order of the government, whatever that may be. What you didn't want for yourself, your kids will ignorantly want, because they haven't learned to think critically for themselves.

Or both, with one of them at a later age, when they're tired of reacting on your parenting for some years. These things happens to ALL parents btw, but you can limit the damage you do from your parenting, or you can make it worse. No parents are perfect.

My dillema is that I have to let you make this mistake (what else can I do?), but I will tell you "I told you so!", later. You bet..

Next term to come to grips with....

[chudgoo]

"My car wont boot!"

Re:Hot Wiring: No Match for a Thief

[Curmudgeonlyoldbloke]

It depends on in which decade the car was made. Yes, if you stick 12v across the starter, it'll turn over. Chances are, with anything made in the last 5-10 years, nothing more interesting will happen (this is in Europe - may be different where you are of course).

Every car that I've had that's been made since the mid 1990s has had a standard-fit immobiliser. Even not taking that into account, what happens in the engine depends not just how much you're pressing the right-hand pedal, on a whole lot of other stuff as well. I once had a 1992 Citroen that refused to go over 40mph because the potentiometer detecting accelerator pressure failed. It wasn't truly "drive-by-wire", but the pedal angle was used to control (among other things) the amount of air getting into the engine. Having previously driven cars with a more "agricultural" approach to engine control, when this happened it was something of a shock.

Or maybe transfer...

[ranolen]

The key can also be used to transfer things like driving instructions or music to the car's hard drive

Or possibly a virus.... I know that's exactly what I want. My car running with a virus in it possibly controlling where I am going (in the future).

I can see it now....

[dexter riley]

6 A.M. I get out of bed, shower, dress, and shuffle to my car. I put the USB drive in the car lock. Following my 20 years of training, my half-asleep brain takes over...

...and I turn the USB key, breaking the connector.

It's just a key

[Anonymous Coward]

Until laws are written, i'll just disable those features.

I think it would be cool to download engine performance data to my pc.

...maybe 30 different keys..

[Curmudgeonlyoldbloke]

Er, have you got any actual evidence for that statement?

Even going back 30 years (yes, I am nearly that old) there were plenty more combinations than that. There was a problem with wear (hence the old "one old Ford key fits all" joke from the 1970s).

> ... order key dupes using the number stamped on the key ...

No, you'll need the master key, a bent dealer, a VERY good story or some combination of the above.

> ... the VIN is visible on modern cars through the windshield ...

No (well, not in Europe anyway - not sure about elsewhere). Everything I've driven outside of Europe has been a rent-a-car and those do have a number on a plaque behind the windscreen.

> If someone wants it, they can take it.

That, however, is absolutely spot on. If they want it badly enough, they'll tow it away.

Re:...maybe 30 different keys..

[tgd]

Yeah, actual experience with it.

I'm sure you can find something more reputable than a first hand account on Slashdot, though, with a little google searching.

I have a) mistakenly gotten into and started a car before, b) ordered a key online with just the VIN, and c) ordered a key online for a 40 year old European-delivery Porsche 911 with nothing but the three digit code stamped on the original key, and d) a sister who works in high risk car financing who is involved with repos on a regular basis.

It may be US-only that the VIN MUST be visible through the window, but it seems strange that would be the case. In either way here, its mandatory.

Re:...maybe 30 different keys..

[AK Marc]

(hence the old "one old Ford key fits all" joke from the 1970s)

Ford? GM had like 5 keys. It was such a joke that they had two separate keys, one to get in and one to turn it on. This was for security because it was so easy to accidentally get in someone else's car. There was a group at my college that would get all that GM owners (except for Corvette, they actually paid the additional $0.05 per car for a real lock when you bought their only real car) and play with the keys. They would try out all their door keys in all the university vehicles they could find. They'd match outside keys with the people that could open them. Then they'd get the outside key for a specific vehicle and as many ignition keys they could find, and ran those until they found a match. They then tracked which people/keys were needed to get into and start any one vehicle. I think they had it down enough that one trusted person was given duplicates of the keys and matched with the vehicle number. Someone could walk up and get the keys to "borrow" a university owned Caprice. Of course, I have no first-hand knowledge of such illegal activities. But I've heard that they went one weekend and moved every car they could to a new parking lot. They played with them some, but never anything more destructive than burning a gallon of fuel. Or so I pieced together from anecdotes and hearsay, as I would never do anything to break the law.

Nice going mazda, but how about an aux in jack

[Maltheus]

I can have a USB key, but there's still no way to plug in an MP3 player into a Mazda car without getting the $200 tape deck "upgrade" (or other after market stereo with an aux in jack). I would have bought a Mazda 3 this month in a second if it had an auxilliary input jack for my mp3 player. And no, I don't want an optical player since they aren't convenient for listening to daily podcasts. I felt like they were making me use a freakin' 8-track (normal CD players are pretty much 8-tracks at this point). And I'm sure we'll have some new kind of player before I'm done with my new car, they should let you just plug anything in. So instead I bought a new Civic, just because it had that jack. But thanks Mazda for some stupid USB key that I'll never have any use for. Geez!

Wrong.

[Poromenos1]

Yeah, I had that idea too. Read this. I was surprised that noone had thought of it. I recently read "Applied Cryptography" (an excellent book) and it had the exact same thing as an authentication protocol, and below it it said "It is foolish to encrypt arbitrary stringsnot only those sent by untrusted third parties, but under any circumstances at all". So much for my bright idea.

The solution he proposes is that "Alice makes some computation based on the random numbers (both the ones she generated and the one she received from the host) and her private key, and sends the result to the host. The host does some computation on the various numbers received from Alice and her public key to verify that she knows her private key".

There you have it, my brilliant idea foiled by chosen plaintext attacks.

Re:Wrong.

[owlstead]

Yeah, well, they also call this OAEP (a padding scheme which uses hash functions as well as a random) it seems. Obviously you should keep yourself as much as possible to cryptographic standards. Only a fool would create his own scheme for something like this. If I remember correctly, Schneider (the author of the book) himself has said something similar.

As another contributer wrote, it is probably easier to keep to symetric cryptography.

+10, Funny.

[Poromenos1]

This is the first comment on /. that made me laugh out loud. I will forever remember this day and celebrate its anniversary.

Re:+10, Funny.

[TCQuad]

You are not alone on that one.

Dead Battery

[nurb432]

My point was this:

Your car is locked, using 100% electronic locks. You run off and leave your lights on.

You come back later to a dead battery, locked doors and no way to tell them to open. Unless there is a ( as you put it ) 'legacy lock' system.

My car has remote power locks, if the battery is dead I better have my key handy... ( or a brick )

Re:Dead Battery

[Luke-Jr]

I have a friend who's mostly immune to problems like these. He simply leaves his car unlocked all the time... he also leaves his ignition key in the car. Sigh, I miss small towns sometimes...

Re:Hot Wiring: No Match for a Thief

[triso]

If they REALLY wanted to do it they could still "hotwire" the newer cars by bringing a seperate matching key/column computer and splicing it into the car but why bother with this hassle when you can just tow?

They also need a geek on staff to make sure the car isn't broadcasting its position via a wireless GPS thingy (CarWings or Galileo).

Car crash

[l0rdpestilence]

with a realtime OS running car, gives new meening to: car crash.

Re:Hot Wiring: No Match for a Thief

[petermgreen]

or they just point a gun at the drivers head and tell them to hand over the keys.

Umm...

[ClosedGL]

Does this mean I can boot my car into Linux?

KEYGEN

[sven_eee]

if you break your key you could just download another, maybe download one for someone elses car too while your at it.

Not a Great Idea for a Key; Great Idea for Revenge

[Absentminded-Artist]

Definitely a specious article title, but not as bad as some of the hand wringing going on in this forum. C'mon, guys. If somebody has physical access to your USB Key it is no different than having physical access to a plain ole key. If you left your keys on your desk I could take them during lunch break and get a copy made at Wal*Mart and put them back before you noticed, theoretically. :/ But not likely. The trick is getting physical access, people. Sure, now you could save a trip down to Wal*Mart and just copy it at your desk, but you still have to steal the key.

I just wonder what the advantage is of having a USB key as opposed to having a standard metal one. There seems to be no advantage other than for marketing purposes. Copy files to the hard drive? Wouldn't it be better to just read them off the key? Are you really going to fill a GB hard drive via sneaker net? Do you really want to wait for your files to finish syncing before the car will start? (Or worse, stall while copying files? heh). A USB Key as the article describes doesn't seem to offer anything that isn't already available.

I was just talking about this USB Key with a bud earlier today and we decided this opened up new doors for fun, gags, and abuse. Consider getting access to the USB key (assuming this is actually easy as everybody else here seems to worry), making a disk image or zip file of it, posting the file on an anonymous Geocities page for easy download, and letting people know where to find the car. Better than geocaching. Oh, the hilarity ensues!

"My car is where?"
"Hidden somewhere in Nebraska. Here are the coordinates for a log in Payson, UT that has further instructions..."

sassou.1 virus coming...

[swschrad]

this virus will cause the mazda sassou to ignore all attempts to make every third turn, or to slow down during that period.

you really want to transfer other stuff to the car computer? be ready for ALL of it....

security is about planning for the worst

[DarthAngst]

If you work in a facility that requires you to not bring media into work so that you can't remove secret information, you deserve to be fired for bringing in a flash drive. Trusted insiders are the greatest threat, hence the need for policies. Such policies are very enforceable, and hold up under the law for the dismissal of employees who violate them. A good policy sets up not only what's forbidden, but also what to do if a security breach happens. Check http://www.sans.org/. If an employee is determined enough, he or she might just find a less restrictive job.

Re:security is about planning for the worst

[RockDoctor]

Such policies are very enforceable, and hold up under the law for the dismissal of employees who violate them.
Providing the workplace provides reasonably secure "locker-room" type areas where you can store your necessary bit and pieces, then a "violation=unemployment" policy is reasonable.
Since I frequently work in such places, I know what I would consider "reasonably secure" :
Firstly, I wouldn't trust any on the minimum-wage security guards who are used to avoid paying for wallpaper. If there's a human involved, then I don't trust the system.
Secondly, I wouldn need to know that the security policy is in place before I am called to that site. This is, of course, impossible. I've been flown to sites before where no-one knows why I'm there, who I'm working for, or what I'm meant to be doing (turned out I should have flown to site A, not site D. Damned typists! ordering the wrong flight for me.) Of course it would be nice if the different companies in particular businesses had even vaguely similar policies, but that's just ludicrous to ask for.
Thirdly, it might be interesting if the minimum-wage security people would actually recognise the various pieces of equipment under discussion. Cameras might be banned, but mobile phones - well they've only got to be turned off; memory sticks are banned, but if I've got an external hard drive in my pocket and a laptop in my bag ... well it doesn't look like *the picture*, so go ahead. And as for the CF card in my left pocket and the CF-PCMCIA adaptor in my right pocket. What's that? "Stuff I need for my work. It's a calibrator for a poison gas sensor." Go ahead.
Oh, and as proof of "reasonably secure" one would expect to see crows picking the eyes out of the last thief, who's chained into a gibbet-cage. Maybe they'd be dead already, but better if they're alive and moaning.

Re:security is about planning for the worst

[ivan256]

If you work in a facility that requires you to not bring media into work so that you can't remove secret information, you deserve to be fired for bringing in a flash drive.

Agreed.

Trusted insiders are the greatest threat

Agreed again.

hence the need for [removable storage] policies

Woah, you lost me here. These policies do nothing to protect against theft by a trusted insider, unless you're searching your employees on the way in and on the way out. If you are, then you could either check the contents of the drive, or better, provide a place to store it while your employee is inside the secure area. Either of those options means it's perfectly fine to use one of these things as a car key.

Most places with a policy like this not only don't search on entry and exit, but can't tell what is and what isn't a removable storage device, and hence the policy is useless.

Re:Hot Wiring: No Match for a Thief

[tylernt]

Yup. Even simple garage door openers are resistant to replay attacks.

Not a production car or key

[macshome]

From all these posts so far I'm guessing that not only does no one RTFA, but that most of the /. crowd aren't car guys either.

It's a concept car. Meaning that it's full of wacky stuff that will never see the light of day. Japanese concept cars in particular can be rather bizarre.

Broken USB ports?

[bkoehler]

I've seen many laptops and a few desktops with broken USB A sockets. Usually this is due to the user thinking the USB cable should really go in a certain way (like upside down) or that they really shouldn't need to disconnect devices like NICs, printers, or cameras before leaving with the laptop or device.

I can just see myself trying to explain to some executive why reflexively trying to turn the USB key was a bad idea, or that you shouldn't have to force USB key in, regardless of the temperature outside (works better when not inserted upside down).

So now if YOu want to make a copy of your key

[Cyberllama]

You just dump the contents to your hard drive and copy it to a new USB flashdrive . . . No more trips to the hardware store.

That's going to be real funny....

[UnixRevolution]

The remotes are coded #1 and #2. Depending on which one enters the car, it chooses one of two sets of driver seat position, side-view mirror positions, steering wheel position, radio station presets, cell-phone hands-free directory (it uses Bluetooth to communicate with my phone, but doesn't have access to the phone's directory), and navigation system settings.

I can't wait for someone 6'9" to get in their car with their 5'2" wife's key fob and get squished Christine style.

Re:That's going to be real funny....

[ptbarnett]

I can't wait for someone 6'9" to get in their car with their 5'2" wife's key fob and get squished Christine style.

Or, they could not read the instructions. If both remotes are detected in the car, #1 is supposed to take priority. If he gives her #1 and he keeps #2, it will adjust to her seat position, even if she is sitting in the right seat.

Portable Firefox, Portable Thunderbird

[bahwi]

Next we'll have Portable GPS, load it up into your Key(drive) and plug it in! Tired of the wife finding out where you've been going at night? Tired of your boss checking the company car's last stop? Now, with Portable GPS you store all you favorite locations on your Key and just go! No more questions about why were you at the transsexual strip club last night in the company car! Just imagine!

Modern key? No.

[SuperKendall]

That's not just a problem for the USB key. Many modern keys have some electronics in the handle that talk to the car when you put in the key. Shatter than and you're toast.

Of course the flippant answer is you pull out the backup USB guy you secreted somewhere on the underside of the car. Whatever happened to backup keys? Far more likley to be lost than run over by a tank in the cold.

Alernate scenario

[Anonymous Coward]

"Here, let me help you!"

"After the keys, eh? GOLDEN LASER ATTACK"

*Whoosh!*

two key dupes flee, chastised and de-santitized for your amusement

Adding Alchohol in the winter...

[Firethorn]

Yes, it's redundant.

In the winter, I fill up with ethanol for just this reason. Pay a little less at the pump(well, a fair bit less now), to get the same additives that they'd want a buck for in a can.

With gas prices heading the way they are, E85 will be substantially cheaper than gasoline*, and I'm hoping to hang onto my current car long enough for them to produce a non-truck, non-premium priced car that can take E85.

*Results will vary: I live in the midwest, corn country, and ethanol is cheap here.

The ordeals of modern life in 20X6.

[not-enough-info]

"Damnit. I've lost my keys."
"Don't worry. I've backed them up."
"Great! Lemme get a copy."
"Damnit. I've lost the computer."

Re:Hot Wiring: No Match for a Thief

[Anonymous Coward]

On a traditional carburettor engine, yes, it might start, or at least do a couple of revolutions.

Without having read the article, I guess the USB key contains an encryption key which unlocks the fuel injection system. Remember this is digitally controlled stuff. No air+gasoline == no combustion == no ride.

Re:The new Mercedes S-Class

[Anonymous Coward]

will have a hard disk. It's coming out is September this year!

Re:Hot Wiring: No Match for a Thief

[Cyberax]

There is a device called 'squid' (direct translation from Russian, I don't know how it's called in English), it's a little black box with lots of wires with clamps. It can control ignition and injectors without any help from car's electronics.

This device is used in service centers and by car hijackers :)

Re:Not a Great Idea for a Key; Great Idea for Reve

[rjw57]

That isn't actually true. For a start many makes of car have model-unique key fobs that can only be cut by an appropriate dealer and then you'll need the matching chassis number (which can clearly be obtained but now you need physical access to the car and the key).

Secondly most mid-range cars here have active keys where the fob either contains a raido transponder or there is some electronic communication with the fob via the key itself. This cannot be copied and you must get a new set sent to you direct from the factory by post - in this country to the address matching your car's registration - if you want a duplicate set.

of course it won't you stupid fool

[RMH101]

on any modern car with any form of immobiliser, which is *all* modern ones.

I've seen this car before somewhere...

[andrewski]

The Sassou looks just like a 323 with 16" wheels.

I'm sure by the time this goes from concept to product, it'll look even more like a 323 and have less sporty wheels too. So it'll be a 323 with a USB key and a smaller engine!

make sure the car isn't broadcasting its position

[da5idnetlimit.com]

Last time I had a look at security systems for cars, I saw a company specializing is car RFIDs -> passive system...

Thay have specialized readers installed at all Highway payment booth and all borders, so you cannot sniff the GPS emission and also cannot use the fast roads and/or export the car as is.

Which is why the Joy Riders have more and more problem finding a ride in a decent car, and why the Pros just tow the car away and sell them for parts.

They should use Biometrics also...

[Sylven_1969]

I have a new USB pocket drive coming in that has built in USB key security for the desktop and also has Biometric security (thumbprint) built in as well. I'm going to store a password .doc and other items on it that I don't want to leave laying around on our Network or my local drive. It seems to me that using a key with biometric security would be a great idea for "Car security" and the technology is there and readily available. What do you think?

another Norton auto edition feature?

[Bob-o-Matic!]

Oh, if only it would defrag parking lots!

especially at the University of Akron, between classes... but finding your car might be a problem.

Re:Hot Wiring: No Match for a Thief

[mattspammail]

Most efficient hacking technique by far. Social hacking takes longer, but it yields great results. (according to what I've read) This is just forced/abbreviated social hacking.

Car owners, for your safety, simply leave your new USB key in the diginition. (hey, can I patent that word?)

Re:Not a Great Idea for a Key; Great Idea for Reve

[Absentminded-Artist]

That'll teach me to drive an older car. LOL Thanks for the info. I brought my 1997 Minivan's car keys to Wal*Mart and had copies made without issue, btw.

Newer keys may be more dupe-proof than older keys, but the USB key won't be any less secure than the older keys, though I think it's a daft idea. At any rate, physical access is needed to pull off any dupe job and most people keep their keys quite close to their person.

Re:Hot Wiring: No Match for a Thief

[moeffju]

The reaction in Brazil was to just put a gun to the driver's head.

Yes, But...

[Anonymous Coward]

Can you still use the USB Drive to write "Da Moon Rulz #1" on the side of someone's car as a sign of trust and friendship?

Re:Hot Wiring: No Match for a Thief

[lisaparratt]

What you need is the imobiliser from a friends motorbike!

Basically, if you were foolish enough to try and start it with the obvious "start" button, you'd short out the electrics and blow all the fuses :D

(For those that don't know, the majority of motorcycles made in the past 20 or so years are started by turning the ignition key on and pressing the start button)

Reply to sig

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you really not thought this through, and don't see why God would use prophets, or are you just pretending to be ignorant of those reasons to get a rise out of people like me?

Sure

[QMO]

Like we're going to believe that.
Everyone knows that North Dakota isn't real.