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Australia Oppresses Jedi
eberry writes "Despite over 70,000 respondents (.37% of the population) replying "Jedi" to an optional faith question on Australia's census, it will not become a recognized religion According to CNN "Australian officials say respondents could face a $1,000 fine for supplying false information. Citing, and I quote, "...people of a particular religious affiliation do not provide the correct information, certain facilities might not be built that otherwise would be."
Personally I find their lack of faith disturbing." And I find the fact that this is on CNN even more so ;)
There is no reason the state needs to know my religion.
They should not even ask for this information. It is irrelevant to any aspect of the governments purpose.
My tax money shouldn't be used to provide any religious services to anyone.
How can you tell if a religion is 'false'?
Michael Loves Me!
Whats up? Do the Aussies not have freedom of religion? I can claim to be a Jedi here in the US and I won't get fined for it (or will I?). Damn weird that the Aussie government wants to pigeon hole everyone.
what i find disturbing is that they have to give out their religious affiliation or else...what buisness does the government have knowning how they worship, and why are they keeping records of that...
Mod me down.
Someone forgot to pull the old Jedi mind trick. Are Jedi inSIGnificant? If you don't get, read it again.
Everyone should list their religion as "Free Software!"
#define sig "Every social system runs on the people's belief in it."
What exactly does the Australian government /do/ with this information? From the "certain buildings may not be built" line, one might infer that it provides subsidies to religious groups -- but it's also conceivable that religious demographics are involved in determining which historical sites are to be preserved or what monuments get built or so forth.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
Make them use the force to move some shit around the room. If they can do it, let them have their religion.
Hell, make the fatter ones do 1 sit up and I'll believe they've mastered the force.
Nerd(robotic voice): I am a Storm-Trooper!
Triumph the Wonder Dog(robotic voice, mockingly): You are a huge nerd!
Finally, math books without any of that base 6 crap in them.
They need to know if they should build the Death Star or not!
"Despite over 70,000 respondents (.37% of the population) replying "Jedi" to an optional faith question on Australia's census, it will not become a recognized religion"
Well duh. Who would put down 'Jedi' and not be considered sarcastic? What'd they expect?
Frankly, I'd be insulted if they took me seriously for a stunt like that. "You believe in a force that requires motion control and wires, your idol is a puppet (muppet?), your bible is a piece of inconsistent fiction that isn't even aware of how slow the speed of light is, and you're willing to hang out with a crowd of people are understandably single."
Yep, I'd be insulted by being accepted as a Jedi.
But I'm surprised that we haven't heard of George Lucas trying to sue the pants off of those Ausie's that replied using the trademarked religion.
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to Sparkle Motion.
I presume that people who write Jedi on their census form are most agnostics and other non-religious people who would have otherwise not answered at all on the census. So the Australian religious budget would not go to them to begin with. Why not have a little fun? It doesn't hurt anything, except for a few hours for the census department to remove the figures from there total.
Now if a person from a legitimate religion answered Jedi, and therefore has caused less dollars to go to his religious organization, I say he gets what he deserves.
-BrentI remember watching the Daily Show several months ago, and they did a segment on how the U.K. recognized Jedi as a religion. It was listed on a census card with about 100 other faiths. Of course, the Daily Show made fun of the Force, which is to be expected.
All you have to do is look at the religion's main tenets and religious texts and use rock solid reasoning and sound science to decide whether they contradict themselves or phenomena that exist in the natural world. So, for example, if a religion holds to be truth a text that specifically states that the earth goes around the sun, when empirical observation has shown otherwise... oh, wait.
pi = 3.141592653589793helpimtrappedinauniversefactory7
They need a little structure and maybe they could get a Jedi facility built.
ender-iii
My suspisions are correct.The Dark force has taken over earth and is trying to eliminate the JEDI. The JEDI must stand up.
;-)
May the Force be with you ye noble soldiers
YODa YODa we call thee
come sooner than my credit card fee
we will set the world free
Let the unbelievers be
Coz the question is to be or not to be
I m not making any sense, aint I.. well i never ment to
My Aurora : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o91ZsGwJYyg
FB : https://www.facebook.com/TanveersPhotography
This decision must be because they have lots of firm evidence that all the other religions are based on fact, after all how can "Jedi" be a real religion the film came out after the book.
Everyone knows that you make your sacred text THEN you do the movies. Duh!
So, Australia is oppressing the followers of The Force. I bet they won't recognize Elvites either. Do you have to pick from an approved list of Christian churches to avoid being prosecuted for giving false information?
That's Bigboo TAY! TAY!
How is it fraud? Why CAN'T someone be a Jedi? Is it because it is a concept that appears in movies? Doesn't seem to be any differnt then claiming you are a Druid or Witch.
Granted, many of the people who wrote "Jedi" probably don't really believe in jedism (?), but what about the few that probably do? Where does the state think it has the audacity to declare some peoples' beliefs justified and others invalid?
On the other hand, what about the groups that actually rely on census data to make their decisions? It is a problem if lots of people falsify data. I know that lots of people purposefully lie on exit polls as they leave the voting booths in November just to screw up the prediction system.
Australia's National Census. If you're using these numbers to do anything important, you're insane. ;)
Any sufficiently simple magic can be passed off as mere advanced technology.
And I find the fact that this is on CNN even more so
No more surprising than some of the bullshit that appears on this site..
What standards or qualifications must a person pass to be a "real" Jedi, "real" Catholic or "real" neo-Druid? Who determines those standards? By what standard are they able to determine who is a "real" whatever, and who is lying?
If the single doctrine of the religion was to answer Jedi to what is your religion on the census form that that makes is as good a religion as any.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
when followers bring in doctors notes testifying to their "midichlorian count".
Where does the school board find them and why do they keep sending them to ME?
When are they going to open a jedi training center. The force is obviously strong in AU. They should be researching light sabers, building temples, and raising the next generation of Jedi Masters, not oppressing the chosen!
when will people stop with this sill nonesense???
come to your senses peope...stick to wroshiping sons of virgins and flaming hedges that talk.
dude.
Personally this makes me glad. Let's be honest here people .. JEDI IS NOT A RELIGION and the people who were putting it down on their forms were only doing it as a JOKE. Now I don't expect this to go over well on Slashdot, a site whose readership is about as anti-religion as you can get, but there are those of us who really do take this SERIOUSLY. If you choose not to, then fine, that's your decision.
But you have to understand when you put things like this down on your form you are mocking people's most cherished beliefs. That might not bother you, but at the very LEAST you might show some respect (or if not respect, try some RESTRAINT.) After all it's not as if my church teaches that Star Wars fans are going to hell, why use Star Wars in an attempt to persecute my church? If you have no religion, write "NO RELIGION", don't make something up to mock other decent people.
Seems like there's been a bunch coming out of the you-can't-make-this-stuff-up dept today.
Of course, sometimes it is possible to make similar things up.
Has anyone else recently noticed the nosedive in the quality of stories on cnn.com?
Come on, Russia waiting on Lance's space cash a lead story for three days?
I'm used to ignoring the drivel from those two yahoo's on the CNN network, Aaron Brown and Paula Zahn, but the cnn.com site at least used to have real news.
They have faith in the Jedi counsel! This is not a lack of faith!
This is so old it's not funny.
Yeah so your a jedi...which one are you? goodie or badie....?if your name begins with Random, your a sith, if your name begins will Linus then your a goodie
They should allow the losers to write "Jedi" and then proceed to ship everyone on the list into the outback. They can enjoy calling it Tattooine while the buzzards circle overhead. Feel free to take anyone who writes that Klingon is their first language too.
Do they exclude Scientologists too?
On the contrary, I think the events of 9/11 demonstrated precisely why separation of church and state is a good thing. (Note that this refers to a secular, non-religious government and not necessarily a secular and non-religious society.)
(IANAL) but I think you would have to prove intent to defraud. Was the point to make a joke like the email claims? But I think quite frankly I think one could claim to support the ideals/precepts of being a Jedi (they are close to Buddism, but a little differnt) and could safely defend ones point that ones religion was actually "Jedi". So unless the government could prove you were part of a larger conspiracry it would be a defendable point.
People like you and me do not take these statistical surverys very seriously, but if it was your job to collect accurate day. Painstakingly calculing your margin of error, insuring you have proper samplings, you'd be upset too.
:)
Must be a slow news day for cute pranks to get on CNN.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Mod me down too.
.37% of Australias population have no life.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
When most organized religons make it clear that they dont respect my beliefs. (Note, i said most).
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
Scientology was fiction, L God Hubbard was actually a decent sci-fi author till he started beliving what he was writing was divine (hence he started his religion).
As for fiction in modern religion, other then the fact that Jesus was a person, and was killed, we don't have much other proof to support the stories in the bible. Who knows maybe 2000 years from now people will worship Yoda as a person? I think the point is sure Jedi is a fictional concept, but who knows there isn't much proof that other religions are little more (and don't come back with the "Word of God" stuff, cause that is just bringing dogma into a factual argument).
Of course the US government acts (and allocates resources) based on faith beliefs of citizens. The US is a representative republic, and so the actions of government reflect, to some extent at least, the will of the people. For many people, their faith beliefs affect their wills more than any other single factor.
The US is also properly a constitutional republic, and to the extent that we pay attention to the US Constitution, governmental action is limited. For example, the Constitution would obviously forbid establishing the Lutheran Church as the official church of the country, even if 90% of the citizens were Lutheran. However, it does not keep Lutherans from lobbying for laws that fit their particular views.
(Note: I just picked Lutheran out of a hat as an example. Don't read more into it than that.)
"Rub her feet." -- L.L.
Smells like a troll, talks like a troll, walks like a troll... But I cant resist.
Actualy I have heard Christians say, with the backing of their chruch and good book, that beleif in aliens and/or exposure to Sci-Fi will get you sent to hell.
Jedis dont go around trying to convert all non-jedis to their beleifs.. Nor do they Kill and salughter people just because that have a different religous beleif.
What you beleive in is your right.. Comfort food for the soul..
Sure we may mock you.. but we wont kill you..
Their are practices and beliefs associated with Druidism and the Wiccan faith. A person can't reasonably _be_ a Druid just by calling himself one momentarily on a piece of paper, any more than it's reasonable to claim to be a Catholic while taking a page from the feminist movement and worshipping Athena as the goddess of Wisdom.
People claim to be religions and do things contrary to them all the time. Does that make the Catholic who gets an abortion guilty of commiting fruad on their census by claiming to be a Catholic even though they don't strictly adhere to doctrine? Or the Mormon who drinks? Or the Druid that eats meat and hunts? etc etc etc. That is why we have freedom of religion in the US, so someones concepts for a religion don't have to apply to mine, then again the government doesn't fund/build churchs here either.
My point is you are singleing out Jedi's becuase it offends you, and not seeing the bigger picture that this "fraud" as you state it goes on ALL the time.
Christianity has one thing that no other religion, past or present, has: the Resurrected Christ. Islam has Muhammad, who was just a mere man (if he even existed at all.) Judaism is built on a lot of tradition but misses the entire point of redemption. The rest of the world's religions are basically just hateful mockeries of things pure. The Resurrected Christ is the one thing that sets Christianity apart from every other religion on the face of this earth. It is for this reason that I am a Christian and it is for this reason that you should be a Christian.
That's all I'm going to say.
Actually the jedi faith is very similar to hinduism in it beliefs about the force being vreated by all living things. I didnt write the following excerpt but thought I would post it here. ______ It is a very little known fact that George Lucas, the creator of the Star Wars world, has strong Hindu beliefs. Just as Hinduism affects our lives, so has it affected his, which can be shown by the fact that he has incorporated Hindu themes throughout the Star Wars trilogy. This essay will touch, through various examples, the way Lucas has weaved Hinduism into his movies. Of the trilogy, The Empire Strikes Back seems to portray Hinduism in the fullest sense. Specifically, the part when Luke Skywalker goes to find Yoda. When he first arrives, Luke finds himself in a forest, looking for the old, wise Yoda to learn the ways of the Jedi. This is very like Hindu's Janoi (Gujarati), where young males run to the forest in search of the old, wise yogi, who would provide great knowledge. Just as a yogi "tests" potential students on their patience to enter into the arduous task of learning, so does Yoda "test" Luke by not telling him who he is. His purpose, of course, was seeing if Luke had patience or not. As the training progresses, Luke learns to control what is called "the Force." Yoda explains that everything is part of the Force, such as the "...the tree, the rock..." etc. This Force is very similar to the Hindu concept of the One or the Universe (in essence Om). In Hinduism it is said that we are all part of the One, just like what Yoda said about the Force. Simply put, it is concluded that Yoda was referring to "the Force" as the Force of the One. Luke also learns about illusion. In one scene, he tries to pickup his X-wing with the Force, but fails. Yoda explains that one should not judge anything by it's size (in essence, what we see is an illusion). He calls all material items "crude matter" and that these are the not the things to judge with. This scene illustrates the Hindu concept that life is an illusion (or Maya). During the same training scenes, Luke gets a vision of his friends in trouble. Luke then prepares to leave to save his friends. Yoda persuades him not to go by saying that he must finish his training because it is more important. This exemplifies the Hindu concept of duty over family. The duty over family lesson can be seen in stories like the Bhagavad-Gita, where Lord Krishna tells Arjun to fight his cousins, despite his feelings for them, because it is his duty. At then end of the training scenes, as Luke is leaving, Ben Kenobi warns Luke to never "give into anger and hate." This lesson of benevolence is also taught by Mohandas Gandhi, which he derived from Hinduism. Besides the training scenes, there are other areas of Star Wars that portray Hinduism. For example, the concept of destiny. In Star Wars, the word "destiny" is used many times in the context of fulfilling one's destiny. This is very similar to duty. Another example is the father-son relationship between Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker. This parallels with Krishna and his uncle who are both related and nemesis. Finally, one last example, Luke, being the only son, cremates Darth Vader at the end of Return of the Jedi. Though I have heard of other religions cremating, it is a predominantly Hindu ritual. In the above examples I have suggested a few connections between Hinduism and Star Wars. Of course, these are arguable, but they are a starting point in which to provoke thought. -Rajan Rajbhandari, 1994
3. While drivign down the street at night have you ever turned off your headlights and driven using only the force? did you live?
. . . I'm not even sure how to answer that last bit. No?
I don't think it's so much religious intolerance as it is their long-standing embargo on midichloreons.
If you had to prove your religious beliefs existed, say goodbye to all organized religion.
Not that it would be a bad thing.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
The problem here is that the Australian government KNOWS that people responding "Jedi" are either joking, or are complete losers. I've met so-called "Jedi"'s and they are among the most pathetic excuses for human beings I've ever met.
But, I have a very low tolerance for all forms of cosplay.
Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.
Ok, I'll bite: which version of Christianity is the correct one? Or rather, what subset of Christianity is true? Is it a binary thing, or a bell curve (ie: Greek Orthodox = 100% Catholic = 90%, Anglican = 75%, Baptist = 50%, Unitarian = 10%, etc.).
I am a Gnostic. Where does that put me on the scale of Truth, o wise AC?
I've got a bad attitude and karma to burn. Go ahead. Mod me down.
James Earl Jones is gunna be piiiiiiiisssed
I mean, if someone were actually serious about creating a Jedi religion, what would it look like? What would be the set of core beliefs? Would it be Christian based? Jewish? Islamic? What? Would it even have anything in common with those religions?
I guess the theory would be to take all of the known best attributes that were gleened from the movies and books and try to create a belief system out of them and use that as the basis as your religion.
Would there be two different Jedi sects? One for followers of the Jedi faith that were good and one for those that were bad? Would members of the faith be called, "Padawans" and the clergy called "Jedi Knights"? Who would hold the rank of "Jedi Master" and would that be the equivlent of say an Arch bishop or some such? Would the governing body of the Jedi church be the "Grand Jedi Council"?
Could we expect to see a "First Church of the Jedi Order" or a "Church of the Vengful Dark Jedi"?
I know this may be silliness, but I'm curious. What would everyone else see as being part of a Jedi religion so that it could actually become a real entity?
I am pretty sure people were just kidding around... But for those who weren't:
IT IS JUST A MOVIE!!!
who is your god- GEORGE LUCAS?!
Another Thought:
Government should not be concern with peoples religion.
You don't need to fill out our silly forms.
"All you need to do is count how many people live here."
All we need to do is count how many people live here.
"Just move along."
I'll just move along.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
to fight religious oppresion
Creationists are a lot like zombies. Slow, but powerful and numerous. And they all want to eat our brains.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
2) Have you and/or your padawan ever been followed incessantly by a computer-generated, massively insulting, highly annoying, ethnic stereotype disguised as an alien?
3) When you entered the tree on Dagobah, what did you see?
4) What specifically is your mitochlorian level? Have you taken any mitochlorian-enhancing drugs lately?
There is another issue, however: If Jedi is a religion, is Sith also a religion?
1) Sandpeople: Have you ever slaughtered any in a fit of rage/revenge?
2) Are you or your Sith apprentice in league with the Trade Federation?
3) Have you ordered any clone armies lately?
What if you just made something up for the form? What if you put "Linusian", "Openus Sourcinerous", "United Temple of The Perl", "Orthodox Geek", etc.....?
Table-ized A.I.
For those not reading the article (and to provide a little background), last year a hoax circulated throughout both the UK and Australia that if enough people marked "Jedi" on their census form, that it would become a nationally recognized religion. This was never true.
What made some people believe that it was true was that, in Britain, it was eventually revealed that "Jedi" was getting a specific response code assigned to it (e.g., people who wrote in "Jedi" as their response were getting assigned a value such as "746" for their religion). The fact that the "Jedi" responses were being recorded made some people believe that the hoax was true.
However, in many surveys, responses that pass a certain numerical threshold are often assigned a distinct numerical code. This doesn't actually mean anything; it's simply to aid in the tabulation of the results. For analysis purposes, "Jedi" was always going to be grouped into "N/A" or "Other" or "Refused to Answer" (I'm not realy sure which; depends upon how they want to deal with it).
All the details can be found here.
So a bullshit cult of lies and murder like Islam is acceptable, while a peaceful unification of the heavens like Jedi is "false"? Aussies are fucking stupid.
Heretic Emacs scum !
Even though it seems like slashdot got confused by an e-mail spam, it's good that they haven't posted this before.
And what exactly are they going to build? Swamps where all the Jedis can get together and learn the ways of the force?
:)
Personally, if they did build a monument to Jedi-dom I'd be happy, and I'd definitely visit. I think it would serve a real purpose in terms of raising awareness about the modern attitude to religion, and would also be a superb day out with the kids
Let 'em build it, the last thing we need is another bloody Catholic church.
If you can't see this, click here to enable sigs.
mandated to attend services ? Does the Big Eye in the sky keep track of what you claim as religion, Yes, how else do they determine which so-called religions have enough followers to get tax exemptions and such. BTW In god I DO TRUST, everyone ELSE is suspect :)
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
Is this false information? It seems to me that if you put Jedi as your religion, then it's true. As true as anything other religion, at least.
Come on, give it up, that's
If one of the Aussie's gov't main points is that "certain facilities will not be built", maybe they should just get over their prejudice against the Jedi and build them a temple! Hell! I'd start attending service if there were a Jedi temple in Jersey! And there is little doubt in my mind that The Way of the Force is a more spiritually enlightening path than that of the Chrurch Scientology!
Quod scripsi, scripsi.
"And I find the fact that this is on CNN even more so"
So you go ahead and put it on Slashdot.
Way to go, CmdrDorko
"A terrorist is someone who has a bomb but doesn't have an air force." -William Blum
Troll say, "Religion be best food!"
Mod up.
This couldn't be done in Austria. Everyone has the right to believe in whatever religion he/she wants to believe whenever he/she wants to. That's freedom of religion, but fining people for being an believer of some "Jedi Knight" cult is not.
A monkey is doing the real work for me.
Have you even read the Bible? Part of the "mystery" of the story of Jesus was that God so loved us that he sent his only son to become "just a mere man" as you so dismissively refer to Muhammad.
The Jedi will grow stronger than the State can possibly imagine.
To-do List: Receive telemarketing call during a tornado warning. Check.
Beam me the hell out of Australia!
A lot of people here seem to have a healthy contempt for these 70,000 Australians. I'd like to point out that it's not quite as sad as it seems. We're not talking about something that takes a lot of effort. And in particular, these people weren't trying to make any sort of serious point.
Simply put, the census is a royal pain in the ass and if your typical Australian knows of a way to poke fun at it without criminal sanction, he'll do so.
If the Australian Government strikes the Jedi down, they will become more powerful than they could possibly imagine!
I'll be honest, we're throwing science against the wall to see what sticks. -Cave Johnson
in interviews lucas states the the jedi is a wrapper for his hindu beliefs. He just gave it another name and gave them some really cool powers and light sabers. See my earlier post
If they take you to court and you really are a jedi, just give them the old "I'm not these defendant you're looking for. Case dismissed" version of the Jedi mind trick...
Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
If someone can formally present some kind of doctrine of faith that all Jedi would follow, thereby defining the religion, then I say let them have it. If 70k people want to follow the basic principles of the Jedi faith, I see no reason to forbid it.
Wicca is a recognized religion in the US, but the government doesn't require the witches to prove that they can perform magic. Likewise, the ability to use the Force should have no bearing on the establishment of the religion. All that should be required is faith in the Jedi religion, regardless if they are just a bunch of nerds.
Seriously, you don't see Catholics proving that the wine actually transforms into blood and back to wine again. Likewise, you don't have the government outlawing Catholisism on the grounds that followers of the faith are trying to be cannibalistic vampires.
FYI: I am not a Star Wars fan, so this viewpoint is less biased than you may have origionally thought.
TodayTM BillyJoelTM GoogleTMd for StitchTMes due to WindowsTM while RollerbladeTMing with an AppleTM and a PopsicleTM
the fact that SEVENTY THOUSAND people chose "Jedi" as their religion. What kind of dorks live in aussie land, anyways? Holy shit.
Why is it that there is an assumption of exclusivity among religions in these survey / census questions? Why do we make the assumption that a person belongs to one, or no religion?
I might as well be a Jedi(and I have responsed that way in survey's and the census before)...its at least as good as anything else...I might as well believe in the at binding force, its got a better chance of being real than some Super Being...at least after Death as a Jedi, I might get to come back and look in on my loved ones in a glowing presense kinda way.
I think I'll stick with the force, what has GOD done for me lately. If there really was such a thing, we wouldn't have people blowing eachother(and themselves up) in Isreal!
Power Corrupts,Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely, leaving one person(group)in charge is absolutely corrupt.
"An energy that surronds all things".. that sounds like several religous beliefs right there.
Yes, but then George fsck'd it up with that crap about the mitochlorians.
*** Where are we going? And what's with this handbasket?
"Personally I find their lack of force disturbing"
...at how far we've fallen.
So if someone declares Jedi is his religion then one is right.
Shut up. People like you need smacked... hard.
Just think of the religious oppression I would have to face butcause of my being a jedi.
Oddly enough, they did this same survey on Tatooine, but after only one respondant said "Jedi", they considered it a hoax.
"I can think of a large number of more ridiculous religions that have followers that take it really seriously (enough so to account for quite a few mass suicides, for instance). "
Or a small number of ridiculous religions with a large number of serious followers killing each other in countless religious wars past, present and future.
The Jedi religion would actually have some merit because of the ideals that they upholded in the movies.
But seriously, what stops people from trying to get other religions started? The Klingons from Star Trek could be seen as a quite honorable, but also quite sadistic because it involves killing random people on a daily basis.
It could never function within society.
And I think Jedi would have similar problems, though quite honestly they might be ridiculed.
And if it gets approved, its something to use to get other seemingly weird religions approved aswell.
"They did it, why can't we..."
Someone has to draw the line...
"Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality." -Jules de Gautier
I don't believe in a deity. I respect people who do because I'm a respectful person, but I think their views are ludicrous. Asking my religion (optionally or not) is like asking me what type of dragons I believe in - it's not that I happen not to believe, I don't believe because there's nothing to believe in. (pauses for response from the Draco-Human Anti-Defamation League)
So if asked a bizarre question about religion, dragons or anything else, I'd feel perfectly entitled to put a bizarre answer. Cargo cults believed that planes were linked to God, why shouldn't I think a film is?
Sorry, but i have to. There is a small group of nitwits in the US who believes that the "establishment" clause merely prevents recognition of one particular Christian sect over another. They go to great lengths to cite the religious convictions of the founding fathers, and posit that such men would obviously not wish to prevent government recognition of the virtues of Christianity, or of religion in general. These people want to frame the "separation of church and state" debate in solely Christian terms, not religious ones.
I see these same idiots posting things here like "Jedi is not a religion". Well, I have news: Lutheranism is not a religion either, but merely a sect of Christianity. The Constitution not only prohibits establishment of an official "church", but also prohibits an official "religion" as well.
"I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
I figured as a point of interest it was worth citing what is required by the IRS to be considered a religion. The IRS was picked because its the only body that would care:
The organization must be organized and operated exclusively for religious, educational,
scientific, or other charitable purposes,
Net earnings may not inure to the benefit of any private individual or shareholder,
No substantial part of its activity may be attempting to influence legislation,
The organization may not intervene in political campaigns, and
No part of the organization's purposes or activities may be illegal or violate fundamental public policy.
And that's it. So under US laws the Jedi church would qualify (if it existed in the US).
For more of this scene as well as the rest of the movie, visit: http://www.stone-dead.asn.au/movies/holy-grail/. Note the TLD... how pertinent.
IWARS.
People, in general, disappoint me. Politicians even more so.
in case you haven't seen it:
http://www.corrode.org/media/4me2p00p0n.wmv
(it's in windows media format unfortunately:/)
In one of the recent investigations in my area, I heard from a good source that they were testing the communion cup for semen as one of the altar boy's said that the priest forced him to ejaculate in it. Think about that the next time you take a sip.
Would members of the faith be called, "Padawans" and the clergy called "Jedi Knights"?
If that was the case, we'd probably be inundated with late-night (so-called)funnymen making jokes about Jedi Knights using their "light sabres" on young Padawan choir boys every time there was a sex scandal in the Jedi Church. Ewwwww!
GMD
watch this
"If, for example, people of a particular religious affiliation do not provide the correct information, certain facilities might not be built that otherwise would be." And since the converse must clearly be true, where's our fucking Jedi temple, bitch?
First it was light-saber control legislation, now the AU government is suppressing the faith of the Jedi they depend upon for it's national defense. Have we not learned from the Trilogies? They will take away a Jedi's rights incrementally, until they are able to invoke the "Episode 3" Clause, targeting and eliminating all Jedi. How long do we have until that fateful day?
"Inattention makes clowns of us all" -Bean
Despite over 70,000 respondents (.37% of the population) replying "Jedi" to an optional faith question on Australia's census, it will not become a recognized religion According to CNN. This comes after blood samples from subjects surveyed displayed non-sufficient midi-chlorian counts.
About 10 years ago I had seriously considered emigrating to Australia from the U.S. With all the bad press that comes out of Australia regarding censorship and other attacks on personal freedoms, I'm glad I didn't go. It sounds like there are more freaks and pinheads involved in Australian politics than American politics.
Maybe it's about time George goes on SNL and tells the Aussie Jedi to get a life.
I think there is a real big difference between having whatever faith and saving my privacy. Personally I believe in <fill in here>. But whoever askes me, might or might not get an answer. The last time I was asked I simple filled in <refused>. I simple ignored the fact that the government could fine me. This is my absolute private area, there is nothing more private than this question.
So I totally refuse to say that lack of faith is the reason why I refused the answer, the reason was Loss of Privacy.
And believe me, next time I will fill in Jedi too!
Roman historian Flavius Josephus mentions him in his writings about the Jews from 93 AD. Josephus was a respected secular historian, he basically says Jesus was a person, had some followers and he got crucified. And quite frankly without dogma you can't say much more for Christianity (and no I am not a fundie).
... who gives a shit!?
Insanity is the last line of defence for the master diplomat. But you have to lay the groundwork early.
Well my 1988 Toyota Camry has the Ford logo, the "Mustang" name, the running horses logos, not to mention the Chevy bowtie, camaro nametag, RS stickers, IROC-Z door print, Dodge truck floormats and mudflaps... Nowhere does it say toyota or camry on it, but if you run the VIN number that's what it is :-)
waves hand infront of the members of the "Ausi Jedi Order"
This is not the religion you are looking for...
HallmarkOrnaments.Com
Whats the title or ISBN of the book, I can't get the url you posted to work.
Actually it is 1000 Australian dollars, about $552 American dollars by today's exchange rates (by the time of this posting). The fine is semi justified, what is the purpose of getting Jedi considered a religion anyway? I have read here many people complaining about the over reaction of the government, but look these people had the "option" to put in this information and I imagine if it is anything like the American census, they signed that the given information is accurate thereby giving up any rights to not being charged. How would it be any different if i put down that I had 25,000 kids and living with me in my house? Sure its a joke, and any idiot reading it would realize i was kidding, but I signed a government survey and its not the time for jokes.
I mean, seriously, Scientology is no more or less fiction than Star Wars is.
--Won't that be grand? Computers and the programs will start thinking and the people will stop. - Dr. Walter Gibbs
And there is another small group of nitwits in the US that thinks that the establishment clause in the first amendment means that the Government can't even mention anything remotely religious. Don't you ever get tired of screaming "Separation of Church and State!" (a phrase that never appears in the Constitution, btw).
"The defense of freedom requires the advance of freedom" - George W Bush
"Jedi" is not a real religion, and any sad loser who calls himself a Jedi or puts it on an official form should be kicked out of society.
Everybody talks about "Star Wars" like it's some blessing from a god. Have any of you SEEN the "prequels"? The "Star Wars" concept is the stupidest, most self-satisfied concept ever imagined.
GET A FUCKING LIFE.
Oh, and BTW, Australia is NOT America. So all you dumbasses replying "separation of church and state" (which is irrelevant, no church is involved) or "freedom of religion!" need to get a clue.
(Note: I just picked Lutheran out of a hat as an example. Don't read more into it than that.)
Oh, I thought it was because you had created them in a petri dish from one of your teeth and some cola.
Damn it, is there any topic that can't have a Simpsons reference thrown into it?
Hey kids, there's only 5 days left 'til Yak Shaving Day!
I think they need to change "Its funny. Laugh." to "It's funny. Laugh. Get on with your life."
If they did make Jedi a viable choice of religion, would that make Darth Vader the Christian equivilant of God?
....
Obviously Luke Skywalker would play the role of Jesus
So does this mean that God fell to the Dark Side?
HallmarkOrnaments.Com
...no text
The faith itself is The Force. Jedi is a religion.
The Jedi are just an order that protects the light side of the force, as the Sith are an order in favor of the 'dark side' of the force.
The ongoing struggle between Jedi/Sith is an interreligious struggle. Like Catholics vs Protestants, the common faith is Christianity.
So basically the news is:
A bunch of Australian assholes who weren't bright enough to fully understand a main premise of the Star Wars series, wrote in Jedi on their census forms.
Bravo Slashdot, keep 'em coming.
What, did noone install linux today?
thought they were real clever and original.
What! Jedi-ism!?? Whatever happened to Slashdot-ism? It's time to spread the word, my friends!
Take off every 'sig'!
All your 'sig' are belong to us!
Have you noticed that no subject turns us into hostile camps of "us" and "them," sniping at each other, quite like religion? If we were not separated by cyberspace we would be fighting, and perhaps even killing each other right now. Not exactly love, peace, and brotherhood of man, is it? This story was supposed to give us a laugh! So is this one. Maybe laughter can chase away the anger and hate, and bring us a moment of joy.
The Uncoveror: It's the real news.
Article before this one: 178 comments.
Article after this: 120 comments.
This atricle: getting close to 400 comments.
I rest my case.
Fight hunger. Filet a politician and send him to a 3rd world country of your choice.
Some one always get upset when the government mentions religion. Think of all the fundies who would be screaming bloody murder if we allowed school prayer - then set a few of those prayers aside for Wiccans and Satanists. Thats the problem, most people who want religion in the gov't only want their *own* religion.
This is a bunch of Bull about the Jedi Religion...
Come on who cares what they believe in...
" IF I go to church then that makes me a Christian,
so does this mean when I go into my garage that makes me a car?"
Please don't feed the atheists.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
Please spell the Lord's name correctly. :) It's Cthulhu (note the second 'h' after the 'l'.) Thanks. :)
As Robertson Davies said about another United church, would that be the "oatmeal of" Linux?
:)
He said that the United Church is "the oatmeal of religion." I'm not sure the United church IS a real religion. First of all, its members can't even seem to decide what its credos are. (Go read the editorial page of the United Church Observer if you doubt me.) Secondly, it's a mangling of about three other denominations.
Hmm, do I see a trend here? Maybe they're run by the same people!
Interrobang, whose parents are (inexplicably) Uniteds, and who is Divided in Linux, and absolutely unchurched
I'm not a geek, I'm just a clever script.
The only time someone uses the word "religion" when referring to Jedi (or the Force, actually) is when Admiral Motti says something about Vader's "sad devotion to that ancient religion" and is nearly choked to death by the latter.
:)
Jedi are an order, which doesn't necessarily mean they're a religious organization. They do not worship the Force, they study it. True, their place is called the Jedi Temple, but this word also has non-religious meanings (accordgin to Merriam-Webster, at least).
Of course it still does have many symptoms of a religion (achieving something by simply believing in it, the good vs. evil stuff).
BTW, I wonder how many Australians said that their religion is Sith.
-jfedor
More FUD on Slashdot.
;)
The bible is a boring story.
Try to make a movie based on the bible and youd need some really good special effects to make it both interesting and believable.
StarWars on the other hand is interesting and isnt so hard to believe.
Pixels keep you awake!
Now, nation states themselves are in large part fictions. So which other fictions should they associate with and invest in? Should a state appropriate, even nationalize, a good fiction when one comes along? Should George II wear his Mickey Mouse hat on state occassions? Should he carry a cross? Should Saddam be let to live a few more years if he'll just play along and dress like Darth?
Even the most "realistic" views of the world are largely fictions. It's time to take conscious control of our choices here; and more than anything it's time for some new religions which are compatible with, but broader than, science. The precise place to find these is the field known as science fiction - duh.
"with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
But Steve, you're an atheist, what do you care?
Because lack of belief could just as easily be invalidated under such a situation. If you like your freedoms, you have to guard your neighbor's.
A great disturbance in the Force I feel. Hhrmmmm. Doubt the Jedi you must not. Succeed without the Jedi to hinder it, the Dark Side would.
No money deserves the Dark Side. Census, what matters this? Success, Jedi have found.
BOTTOM LINE: I cannot say better what Carlin says best:
"I gotta tell ya, when it comes to bull****, truly major league bull**** you have to stand back in awe of the all time heavy weight champion of false promises and exaggerated claims... Religion. Organized religion. It's no contest. Religion easily has the best bull**** story of all time. Think about it... Religion has convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky... Who watches every thing you do every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a list of 10 specific things he doesn't want you to do. And if you do any of these things, he will send you to a special place, of burning and fire and smoke and torture and anguish for you to live forever and suffer and burn and scream until the end of time. But he loves you. He loves you. He loves you, and he needs money." - George Carlin
Enter for me you must: "Jedi."
Hot grits Natalie Portman does eat.
p.mon
Jesus is God in human flesh. He is not half God and half man. He is fully God and fully man. At the incarnation He added to His divine nature the nature of man. Thus He has two natures: divine and human. He is both God and man at the same time. He is not merely a man who "had God within Him" nor is he a man who "manifested the God principle." He is God, second person of the Trinity. "The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word" (Heb. 1:3, NIV). Jesus' two natures are not "mixed together," nor are they combined into a new God-man nature. They are separate yet act as a unit. This is called the Hypostatic Union.
The following chart should help you see the two natures of Jesus "in action":
One of the most common errors that non-Christian cults make is not understanding the two natures of Christ. For example, the Jehovah's Witnesses focus on Jesus' humanity and ignore His divinity. The Christian Scientists, on the other hand, focus on the divine nature and ignore the human.For a proper understanding of Jesus and, therefore, all other doctrines that relate to Him, His two natures must be properly understood and defined.
The Bible is about Jesus (John 5:39). The prophets prophesied about Him (Acts 10:43). The Father bore witness of Him (John 5:37; 8:18). The Holy Spirit bore witness of Him (John 15:26). The works Jesus did bore witness of Him (John 5:36; 10:25). The multitudes bore witness of Him (John 12:17). And, Jesus bore witness of Himself (John 14:6; 18:6).
Other verses to consider when examining His deity are, John 1:1,14; 10:30-33; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Phil. 2:5-8; Heb. 1:6-8; and 2 Pet. 1:1.
1 Tim. 2:5 says, "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." Right now, there is a man in heaven on the throne of God. He is our advocate with the Father (1 John 2:1). He is our Savior (Titus 2:13). He is our Lord (Rom. 10:9-10). He is Jesus.
maybe i'm confused on the jedi 'faith.' but to be a jedi, don't you need to know how to use the force? maybe i'm confused here, but the force IS made up, right?
OK .. let's create a religion that meets their criteria. Something that is organized and has a belief system. I'm tired of telling people I'm an athiest anyway. Maybe I can pretend to believe in a 'life force' that binds everything together in the universe as long as I don't have to worship it.
But let's do it right this time. No heaven or hell, no eternal damnation, no confessions, no martyrs, no bleeding icons (bleeding as in blood, not as in the bloody British vernacular). No one in charge for life, no special group that gets to make the rules because they wear silly clothes or funny hats, no vague guidebook that contradicts itself. No 'special' days or times. Let's let other people make fun of our religeon as long as we can make fun of theirs. No admission fees either.
What does that leave for the basis of a religeon? I guess a religeon isn't really a religeon without all the accessories.
I rarely read replies, it's my opinion and if you thought about your opinion a little more, I'm OK with that.
I completely agree with you. So many people say they are of one religion and yet don't live it.
Also, think of the principle of this. You and I both know the law of averages states that at least 5 people in Australia saw Star Wars, had a spiritual epiphany, and actually decided to believe in the Jedi Religion for real. If the state assumes this ALL is a joke and throws all the responses out, or worse: fines them, it is wronging those poor souls who truly believe in it.
---=+=---
"Now if I were a landing thruster, which one of these would I be?"
-- Londo in Babylon 5
I'm not sure if it's sad or just funny that some people DO consider Jedi to be a religion. It's based on something called "Qi Gong" (chee gung) which is very similar to prana yoga, and Jedi itself could easily be considered to be a branch of Taoism.
Qi Gong, in the form of Falun Gong (an offshoot), is currently being severly repressed in China right now. Practitioners are jailed, some people say for standing on street corners and performing miracles. But I haven't seen that...
Should we add Australia to the list of nations opressing this religion? They don't have to worry about it affecting their status as a member of the WTO apparently.
For a serious website on this, see madscott.org
Isn't the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals saying that is is unconstitutional to say "under God" and endorsment of atheism over theism? Where do you draw the line?
Faith in the force is enough for it to exist.
I have a few resources about the uniqueness of Christ's virgin birth versus the virgin births of other gods (like Zeus, the Egyptian gods, and other pagan gods). However, the link doesn't really give any information. A few times it says "Product of a virgin birth," but that doesn't really give any information to go on for analysis. Often it comes down to the mother. A god coming to earth and impregnating some random woman is a far different from the prophecy and lineage of Mary.
In the begining there was the cencus and it was lacking in the religion of the Jedi.
Then the Jedi came and spoke out for there religion by scribing there faith.
This is the doctrine of the Jedi.
Why is being a Jedi any more of a fantasy than being, say, a Mormon? Angels bringing golden tablets in "Egyptian" to some loser in upstate New York? They might as well have been packing light sabers too.
If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
Christianity does not have a monopoly on the truth. Other religions have parts of the truth or may even have a large amount of the truth. Christianity has the complete truth, though.
"...people of a particular religious affiliation do not provide the correct information, certain facilities might not be built that otherwise would be."
Not being an Aussie, I seems to me that this quote implies that the Australian government is in the business of funding religious facilities. At the minimum is seems to imply that you will be either taxed or granted taxes depending on your religious affiliation.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
HIM this is correct just like police man,
.... america and HER army, there she goes (the ship), isn't she a beauty.
a 12 man team (even if there all women).
HER should be used for the definate neutor yada yada yada
I can't spell for shit but i hate those politically incorrect people.
They scoff at anything outside their narrowly-defined concept of a "genuine" religion. "That's not a real relgion, it's just an excuse to _____." "They're just thumbing their noses at us devout _____s, they're not religious." "I've never heard of anyone belonging to _____; it must be a fake."
Religion is much broader than that. Religion is about closely-held beliefs. In the United States we have what's known as "Freedom of Religion." Many people interpret this to simply mean that the government cannot prevent you from going to church/praying/etc. The Constitutional amendment which provides "Freedom of Religion" is also focused on "Freedom of Speech." The whole idea is "Freedom of Ideas." The government cannot tell you your your beliefs are wrong without solid proof
"Your belief that God is dead is wrong because God lives in every man," doesn't fly. "Your belief that you have a mandate from God to murder people of other religions is wrong, because you are harming another person," is valid.
This distinction is very important. When a government can condemn ideas or mandate ideas without the burden of proof, its leaders attain totalitarian power. The power to define valid religions/beliefs translates into the power to define facts and reality, and the government will evolve into a self-serving dictatorship.
I don't care for Star Wars, and I don't think any one of these people can levitate rocks. But I do believe there are many people who are religiously fanatical about Star Wars. I'm not going to ridicule people for claiming Jedi as their religion or accuse them of lying about their beliefs, because their beliefs are just as valid as yours and mine.
I don't pity these "Jedi" for their beliefs. I pity them for living in Australia. In the U.S., the government doesn't have the right to suppress beliefs by calling them lies.
Well you've already got a good name for it. Religeon. You could put the stress on the 'ge' so as to differentiate it from 'religion' which everyone else practices.
-- SIGFPE
Why can't they take a hint and realize people really don't want to answer their invasive questions? It's just people's way of expressing their disapproval of the census.
Wow, the planet earth apparently has more Jedi by several orders of magnitude than the entire galaxy did in Attack of the Clones :)
This Space Intentionally Left Blank
1) Plant grape vines
2) Add water to plants
3) Wait until ripe
4) Harvest grapes
5) Stop grapes
6) Bottle juice
7) Wait
Water into wine QED
Nope.
In my opinion, removing the phrase would make it neutral. If it had said something like "there is no God," then it would be endorsing atheism. (For what it's worth, as an atheist I'm against adding "there is no god" or some variation of that as much as I'm against the "under God" phrase.)
Regards,
Sean
I AGREE WITH THE PARENT POST
Mod up.
Well, perhaps if mod points were supposed to be a statement of agreement, that would make sense. But they aren't, so it doesn't, and you are a dipshit.
The alternative to funding religious charities is not your bogus government-dictated-atheism strawman, but simply the status quo: a society with real religious (and secular) freedom.
"Helping others help themselves" by taking money from everyone's paycheck and giving it to the local church to do feel-good charity? Come on. Where do you get from "religions exist; acknowledge their existence" to "give religious charities government funding"?
While there are some actual real world benefits to most religious charitable organizations, these charitable arms do in fact serve in part to promote their religion.
And, it is actually very common, when enough charitable money is flowing in, for the charitable workers to take more and more for their own purposes, perhaps without realizing it.
Therefore, I oppose government funding (even with oversight) of religious charities because:
1) it is in fact monetary support of the religious organization behind the charity (money is fungible, and the charitable activities do serve to promote the religion).
2) I should be able to choose where to allocate my charitable dollars. Government bureaucracy for assigning grants for charitable work will result in less care being given to the actual charitable use of the money than when the donors take a personal interest in who they give their money to and what it is used for.
3) If we simply must have "mandatory charity" I would prefer it be performed directly by government bureaucracy (that at least is subject to central oversight and control, and could in theory develop some degree of professionalism and fairness), rather than indirectly through government and then through church bureaucracy.
If Australian officials don't like the answer they shouldn't ask the queston in the first place.
If they strike them down, they will only become more powerful than you could possibly imagine ...
Tuus crepidae innexilis sunt.
Neither the religion nor the language sections explicitly mention Aboriginal religions or languages, though about 7000 people wrote that in on the 1996 form, and a number of other people wrote in "Nature Religions", which may include some aboriginals as well as neo-pagans. The Ancestry section does include "Australian", and there is also an explicit question asking if you're an Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander, and there are some specific instructions for Australian South Sea Islanders as well.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Visit xenu.net, I'm sure they have an in-depth explanation of the stunts the Co$ pulled to get tax-exempt status.
The US rules say that the data must be kept private for 75 years, but that rule was blatantly violated during World War 2, when the Army used census data to find people of Japanese ancestry and arrest them all. The current census asks lots of detailed data, especially about national origins of Spanish-speaking people. It's theoretically only kept on a census-tract basis, not an individual address basis, but that can be as small as a block or two. How many Guatemalan couples with three kids aged 2, 4, and 7 live on your block?
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
slashdot still quoting CNN... a new low...
Aw, geeze...
I guess that lets out building a Jedi Council Chambers building in Perth, huh?
Aren't you a kuro5hin crapflooder? I can make my own arguments based on my own sincere beliefs; I don't need your "help", thank you very much. There's enough religious trolling here as it is. Way too much, in fact.
If my government (USA) prosecuted me for filing misleading personal information on a census form, I'd see them in court. And in court, the census bureau would have to demonstrate that they tracked personally identifying information to me. Yes, I would pay $1000 to get that into a court record.
I would expect the EFF, the ACLU, and the New York Times to take a great interest in that court record, and I expect a few more Americans to wake up about the surveillance state.
Here is some information from Statistics NZ about the NZ equivalent. Two obvious conclusions from this: with 1.5% of the population, the Jedi faith is much stronger in New Zealand; and statisticians have no sense of humour.
--
Thanks for your enquiry. There were 53,715 people who identified
themselves as Jedi in response to the question on religious affiliation.
This was 1.5 % of the people who responded to the question.
For your information, most people realise the importance of the Census
and therefore provide meaningful and accurate answers. The religion
question, which has been asked in the Census since 1851, asks people
to identify what religion, if any, they affiliate with. They may elect
not to answer this question. If people's belief system was genuinely
Jedi, they could mark the "other" box and write Jedi in the space
provided. These data were captured during the processing phase but have
been coded as "Response outside Scope". Jedi is not part of the
agreed list of religious affiliations noted in the New Zealand Standard
classification. Hence it will not appear in the official results from
the Census.
Damn straight, and quit giving minorities welfare. Waste of money anyway.
I suspect that Jedi might be closer to my choice than any of the other options. I doubt that they would have liked "Reformed Druids of North America", either, but that's been my religion for the last 30 years. I'm not very dedicated, despite being ordained, but it matches my views better than any of the competition that I've run into.
Why do people assume that it is a joke when people claim Jedi as their religion? I'm not at all sure that it is. Religions can probably start in many ways, I have know devout members of "The Church of All Worlds". I didn't think that they understood the revealed doctrine (see Stranger in a Strange Land) very well, but they were sincerely misguided. And devout. Some of them did jail time over it.
I'm sure that many entered the term Jedi as a joke, but I see no reason to believe that all did, and even so I would bet that many who entered it as a joke were as devout as many of those who entered Anglican (Episcopal?).
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Yes, and I get just as tired of the hearing ill-informed religious zealots crying over the threat of the phrase, "under god," being removed from the pledge, when that phrase was added after the fact by President Eisenhauer. Try saying the pledge without those two words. I think that the phrase, "one nation indivisible," sounds more meainingful anyway, and doesn't alienate any portion of the public whether Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Atheist, or otherwise.
I think the Lake Woebegonians might prefer if the nation went Lutheran... ;)
Listing "Jedi" as you relegion is like picking "none of the above" in the voting booth.
None the less see related story on BBC news site.
http://bbcnews.com
The government doesn't act based on the beliefs of "the citizens." The government acts based on the beliefs of whoever can throw the most money at it...Ergo, the good old white military industrial crew. ;-)
Also, there are those of us who don't necessarily think secularisation of education is such a bad thing. In my own ideal society, you'd have private schools of various religious orientations, with the state's offering being secular. The references by ageing Pentecostal fundamentalists to America as "God's country," and insisting that the country have Christianity as the state religion are emotive, irrational, and not based on anything logically sound, be it theological or otherwise.
Does the government of Israel attempt to separate church and state? This seems tangentially related.
Although supplying misleading information on a census form in the UK is a criminal offence, interestingly there is an exemption for religion. Enough people put Jedi on the 2001 and census to have it added to the list according to the BBC. However the information on how many will not be made publically available. However its presence on the list does not mean it is officially recognized. This article points out that it is all a hoax and that it wont be added to the list. Hhh, conflicting ideas from the same media source, i dont believe it =) Cheers Rob
Rob 'robster' Bradford
Debian Planet Guy
We are the apt. You will be packaged. Resistance is futile.
They were maybe the first to build some nice stuff (observatories, equivalent of hospital) but thery were also the first to ACTIVELY repress knowledge. Galilleo comes to mind. Epure si mueve.
But the worst isn't even that they made him recant, the worst is that we had to wait 1980 so that the church admit that "maybe they did something wrong in pushing Galilleo to recant". Maybe *snicker*. Most of the stuff the church did, was to actively research the deep meaning of God and the teaching of christianism It wasn't a search for knowledge itself. Only a sort of furthering the propaganda arm of the church.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
Useless information, tongue-in-cheek ending, editor's superfluous tongue-in-check opinionating. Someone should hang the DJ. Oh crap, not me too.
Or Slash dot should parody itself
You are. Your electoral process voted in Bush. (Don't get me started on the popular vote question - I lived in Palm Beach County during the election). Bush and the Republican party are openly supportive of using religious resources and volunteers to suppliment (or even replace) the welfare and socialistic assistance system that is endorsed by the Democratic Party.
I am of the opinion that a government agency that functions as a connection between religious groups and government is not a bad thing at all. Ideally government turns a blind eye to race, and there are many government agencies devoted to minorities. The fact is, religious groups have a part in society, and government should address that, they should not endorse them above any other group, just as race plays a part in society, and government should address that, just not take a position other than an quality of rights.
I do not advocate tax funds being turned over to religious organizations. I do not advocate secular public mandated charity, for that matter. It's that mandated part I don't agree with. I don't, however, have a problem with government taking an active role in maintaining a relationship with such voluntary charities, both secular and religious, and extending them tax breaks and access to a government provided forum for cooperation and inter-group orginization, especially for quick and precise action in times of catastrophe, such as hurricanes or flooding.
--
Evan (no reference)
"$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
You've got a good point about fallable people abusing money, if even inadvertantly. However, I'm sure there are quite a few people being taxed who might offer the opposite viewpoint of yours: "If they're going to take my money, they had best not be putting it into an organization that conflicts with my religious beliefs."
And so, in order to acheive your idea of "the status quo: a society with real religious (and secular) freedom", the government should be funding neither sectarian nor secular organizations if they're in the same trade. In example, the government should either fund none of the alcoholism recovery programs, or it should fund all of them equally if there's even one in there with a different set of religious beliefs (or non belief) from any other one.
Brian Voils
"A university is what a college becomes when the faculty loses interest in students."
The thing about this that baffles me... Well, maybe it's different in Australia, but if you want something to be an Official religion, here in the 'States you just need to file some papers, basically. I would imagine that the reason they won't recognize these responses is that there is no legally recognized "Church of Jedi." Honestly, shouldn't someone start one? Clear this question up for once and for all?
It Is the Nature of Information to Transgress Artificial Boundaries
I don't get tired of it at all... and I won't until there actually is an effective separation between the two.
Then again, I guess that would mean that most of the people in the U.S. would have to disappear since it's usually the more dim-witted that are so strongly clinging to fairytales and fantasy.
Philosophically the concepts are good but I don't need to be frightened into following by some all-powerful concept of deity.
People's religion is their own business. So what if they want to call themselves Jedi? I'd personally rather be a Jedi than Christian, Jew or Muslim. The concept of the Force and the Jedi is a very elegant and spiritual system, and if that is what anyone chooses as their belief no one should say it is false simply because it is taken from a movie.
Wait, so if god knew what was going on than he willingly slaughtered job's children? Well that makes him a pretty sick bastard (like a murderer), doesn't it? God has murdered humans. Well that would make him a hypocrit, now wouldn't it?
An Education is the Font of All Liberty
There are Real Jedis (JEsus DIsciple) also. Please see http://jahtruth.co.uk/starwar.htm Learn The Way of The Force.
Right! Plus, as far as the 9th Circuit Court's ruling, they merely restored it to its original version. The "under God" part was added well after the fact.
Has anyone considered that those people might not have been joking?
The government is indirectly endorsing religion if it gives money to a charity (say a soup kitchen) that assists those in need but requires them to pray to recieve the assistance. Many church affiliated homeless shelters offer free meals, but hold a prayer before them. This is a violation of the 1st amendment.
What does this do to the homeless person?
(hypothetical specifics below)
If the homeless person is a christian and so is the charity, great, they are full in the stomach and the soul.
But, if a Jew is in need of assistance, they have to either pray with them, and go against their faith (speaking the word G_D, or pronouncing Jesus as their savior), and be full of stomach, but empty in soul, or eat without praying leaving them full of stomach, but also full of guilt, or not eat, leaving them full in the soul but starving for nutrition.
The alternative, charities with no religious affiliation, provide food and the opportunity to pray if you see fit, with no pressure to go against your faith.
"I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
The virgin birth of the one who will bring balance to the force (read: somehow change the human condition) in Episode 1 seemed pretty biblical to me.
Well, hey, I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons and not learn a little something about courage.
Treading through the posts debating the validity of christianity I've noticed a large number of Anonymous Coward posts.
/. topic? Why is it that people don't wish to sign their opinions?
I agree with many of the posts and it's my personal view that most religion doesn't amount to much more than mythology- though there are some good rules to live by in the bible once you strip out the hooey and flash powder.
My point is to the power of mass acceptance bringing into reality a tangible force. This force- though the writers claim not to believe they'll be struck dead by their non-belief- seems to instill a superstition towards signing their posts.
Is this a normal level of anonymous activity following a
Has 'mass acceptance' itself brought into reality an effect of a cause that doesn't exist?
Have you even bothered to find out what the Nazis were actually all about? The whole notion of the Nazi state was based on Christianity, it was the central crux of Hitlers perscution of the Jews (They deny Christ, see?)
Oh, and Goodwins law is in effect, but as I'm calling it now, my previous point stands. You're an idiot.
And then explain how, with this completely anonymous and private survery, they managed to pinpoint them.
The census is designed to recorded statistical information about the population in general, not about indivduals.
Who's to say Jedi philosophy is followed religiously by some? I don't believe it's up to Johnny to say what is a valid religion/philosophy or not.
Blah blah, it's not "recognised". Who cares. A religion doesn't need a seal of approval to exist.
That Lucas ripped off an existing religion?
All writers/producers/etc. do it. Rip things off, that is.
It's pretty hard not to do, considering to write something, you have to be alive, and are probably living on Earth. While enjoying a few decades of idiocy planet-side, you're influenced by damned near anything.
Hence, when you sit down to create, these influences manifest themselves.
Oh, yes, I know, (insert your favorite author/director/musician here) is totally original and isn't influenced by anything.
Beware people who try to tell you this, and beware creators who say this themselves, because they're full of shit. Even if you were locked in a box for the entirety of your life, with no outside contact, you'd be influenced by that.
I've seen quite a few people posting in the opionion that Australia's census bureau should lighten up and not take this so seriously, or that the government shouldn't even be asking this question so it is okay to falsify data because its funny. I think we need to step back and get some perspective on this. Lets remove the whole Star Wars connection (even though that is the only reason this is reported) and realize that there was an organized campaign to get people to enter a particular thing on their census sheet. 70,000 people didn't spontaneously decide to enter "jedi", they were coaxed into it. Its pretty easy to see that it is (at least mostly) a false entry. Imagine I started a campaign to get people to say that they are left-handed-lesbian-albino-midget-eskimos on their census forms, because damn thats really funny. With an internet campaign and maybe a few morning dejays on my side, I could have a real impact on the census. Do you see why the census bureau would be upset about that, or any other falsehood? Do you see how that would be a waste of out tax money?
Census information is actually kinda important to some functions of government, so it isn't a proper forum for humor.
Plus, the humorous campaign is actually doing a disservice to anyone who is a true diciple of jedi beliefs.
Don't moderate flamebait as Troll. Know the difference or you will be Meta-moderated.
"One nation indivisible," as opposed to "A voluntary confederation of sovereign states." The original pledge was a product of the post Civil War reconstruction period, and was then very offensive to southerners, but the winner of a war usually does make the losing side take loyalty oaths. It amazes me that a post Civil War loyalty oath was still around in 1952 for Eisenhower to add "under God" to, making it an anti-Soviet Union Cold War loyalty oath.
The Uncoveror: It's the real news.
I decided they would do that anyway so decided to put my religion as gnuism because i thought it most appropriate and ture anyway
meridian at tha.net
Get over it you self important yanks. It was a big joke. Anyone who put Jedi in their census obviously does not take it very seriously. I know I didn't. Remember, governments don't build churches, the religious community does. America has a very strange view of separation of state and religion, from what I have seen you cannot get elected to any public posision unless you are a "god fearing, good 'ol boy" with billions behind you and a swag of dodgy political supporters. Remember, the only real big brother you need o fear is Uncle Sam.
Who says these people actually believe they are Jedi? Maybe they believe that Jedi exist, that "The Force" is real, but they themselves are not Jedi. The Force is not strong in them, or they were not born with quite enough midichlorians, whatever St. George calls them. Han Solo was obviously not a Jedi, but by ROTJ he's been convinced that the force is real. What religion, then, is Han? For lack of a better term, he would mark Jedi on his census form.
So what if it was written by a Scifi hack who didn't believe it himself, filled with aliens and ancient wars? So was Scientology.
Yes, it is illegal to provide false information on the census form.
It's also unconstitutional for any department or official of the Australian Government to ask you to validate your faith. If questioned as to the accuracy of your claim, so long as you reply with something to the effect of "I believed in what I call the Jedi religion at the time of the census", you're all clear.
If you're stupid enough to reply "Haha! Great joke huh?", expect a fine coming your way.
I would cite the relevant sections of the constitution and codes, but I don't have the references handy, and it took me 10 minutes with Google and www.fed.gov.au to find them the first time.
Yawn. This is old old old. Go look at here to find out the Australian Bureau of Statistics response.
Every properly designed survey has a defined set of coding rules used to code and therefore analyse the responses. If you want to see trends over time, then you try not to change the coding rules significantly from census to census, so the current definitions might simply reflect historical attitudes about religion in Australia.
The one major exception is private schooling (often run by religious organisations), which receives government funding here. However, that's based on enrolments to the schools, not census data.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
Personally I find their lack of faith disturbing.
don't you mean:
Personally I find their lack of force disturbing.
The original pledge was a product of the post Civil War reconstruction period, and was then very offensive to southerners, but the winner of a war usually does make the losing side take loyalty oaths.
That makes it sound far more palatable than if you spell out that in this case it wasn't their vanquished foas that they made to take loyalty oaths, it was generations of school children. It's sick.
In fact any country that does (perhaps ironicly) NOT have compulsory voting, cannot call itself representative as not all are represented in elections.
Anonymous Coward (no relation to Noel).
The fact is if they start going after people who tell lies on this question on the census form they are going to have to go after quite a few more than the 70,000 or so Jedis out there.
An interesting fact (pointed out by Will Anderson of the TripleJ morning show and The Glasshouse on ABC for the Australians in the audience) is that every question where no or none is a valid response, the no or none option was first. Every question that is except the religion question where they had half a dozen Christian options first.
I think what this shows more than anything else is that Australians really don't give a crap about this stuff. It's just something the government makes us do every five years.
Nerd: Derogatory term typically directed at anybody with a lower Slashdot ID than you.
Don't be so sure, we of the sith believe that nothing is indivisible, a well aimed blast from the death star can divide just about anything.
-- Any comments seen here are not mine, but a mixture of alchohol and lack of sleep.
Judging by some of the responses that get assigned a coding number they do not only count recognised religions e.g. Doubtful or Zilch (which means nothing).
How long before the Australian Senate declares war and hires bounty hunters to hunt down and destroy the Jedi?
"It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance." - Thomas Sowell
This just goes to prove that the census long-form is fatally flawed.
There are definitely good reasons why government would want to know how many people live in the country. Assuming that every single person, just by being a US citizen, qualified for a $5,000 yearly check paid for by the US government (this program would take the place of welfare and other means-tested government programs), then it would be very easy to find out how many citizens there are - no one wants to hide, because they won't get their $5,000.
But what's the government doing finding out all these other factors? Who cares how many 42-year-olds there are in the country, or how many Irish? I can go to the Census online, and find out how many Romanians there are in my town of 8,000 people. There's six. Data of that precision is not the kind of stuff that government should have access to! And that's not even getting into religion.
Why can't government just use the census like it's supposed to be, a population count? And better yet, why can't the government find out population counts from other means, so that a census of any form is obsolete?
I can't seem to find a metion of this, but here goes.... Over at http://www.jediism.org you can learn the complete Jedi doctorine. Hmmmmm.....
Open Source: Every now and then, you get what you don't pay for.
Did somebody already make the, "This is not the census taker you are looking for. You will fine someone else" joke?
To be legit. A religion needs Gods, to be specific, the Gods in which we trust. Almighty Dollars. If The Jedi Just get one of their men on TV saying, "Send me your money, and the Force will be with you." Jedi will be recognized as legit as soon as he raises ten million. I offer to be that guy on TV. Send me your money, and the Force will be with you!
That's Bigboo TAY! TAY!
There is no confirmation that Jesus even existed from the time he would have lived
Have you heard of the "Anti-Stratfordians"? They believe that Shakespeare did not exist. You'll always find doubt about great historical figures. But that doesn't mean they don't exist. Most historians believe that both Shakespeare and Jesus were real people.
outside the New Testament except for Josephus' writings
There's two independent sources. Furthermore, what you're saying here is completely false. There are documents from outside the Christian Scriptures that talk about Jesus; many of them have been translated into English by the Jesus Seminar. Do a Google search for the "Gospel of Thomas", which wasn't included in the New Testament, and is believed to be independent of the canonical gospels, and contain authentic material (since it tells some of Jesus' parables in slightly different forms).
which have been embellished by monks.
That doesn't change the fact that they must have had something to start with. Since Josephus was a Jew, he probably wrote the part about Jesus being a rabble rousing prophet and his brother James being killed, while the Christian monks likely added the part about the miracles (presumably, if Josephus believed that Jesus performed miracles, then he would have been a Christian, not a Jew).
A paper putting forth the theory that Josephus made Jesus up, and wrote the gospels was published by a group called the Society of Josephus. It is frequently suppressed.
A paper saying that something is true doesn't make it true. And who are the "Society of Josephus"? Google doesn't offer any information on them. And their name hardly makes them sound reputable. Are they attached to any university?
Furthermore, this theory seems very unlikely, especially in light of the fact that there are many Gospels not in the New Testament. Furthermore, there are also Gospels written by the Jewish Christians; wouldn't it be more likely that Josephus would have written such as Gospel as these?
If Jesus really existed, and lived in the time of Herod, than our calendar system should be radically revised, as Herod was dead by 30 BC.
Please check your history. According to this source, Herod the Great died in 4 B.C. (There were many rulers named Herod, however; perhaps you have them mixed up.) And we already know that Jesus wasn't born in 0 B.C., this isn't news. Keep in mind that the Gregorian calendar was created in the middle ages, so we can't expect them to have pin-point accuracy.
And no, the calendar isn't going to change. The terms "BC" and "AD" are being switched in many places to "BCE" (Before Common Era) and "CE" (Common Era) in order to secularize the Gregorian calendar.
This site presents the evidence for and against Jesus' existence, without taking sides. If you look at the "against" information, it mostly comes down to lack of documentation by Roman historians of the time. But this should not be a surprise, because Judea (that's what Israel was called at the time) was merely an impoverished occupied territory. Many Judeans were crucified by the Romans. To the Romans, Jesus was just one more rabble-rousing Judean prophet better left forgotten.
#define sig "Every social system runs on the people's belief in it."
but does it look degobah
where yoda live?
This doesn't sound right, before the census the officially announce that jedi is a religion - and it was on the news too. I don't see how one would cop a fine for putting that on, in fact, I believe that because it was on the news that is the sole reason why so many ppl put it down.
Analytic & algebraic topology of locally Euclidean meterization of infinitely differentiable Riemmanian manifold
I agree with your statement, but I'm not sure what it has to do with the parent post. The bottom line is that although the Governement should not govern or support a particular faith or church, that does not mean that the government does not consider the religious values of it's citizens.
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
...an American general will have to play a really serious game of Galactic Battlegrounds.
Uh, no. Not any more than signing your name at the bottom of a driver's liscence is an "atheist" act. The appeals court is not saying that no person can talk about god: it's saying that the government shouldn't be leading its citizens in any endorsement of any particular theology or religious ideas. That right is reserved for the people.
I'm an American, and I happened to be in Oz at the time, so I filled in "JEDI". I have some questions for Australians:
Does the $1000 fine apply to foreigners?
Supposing people are really going to be fined (which I doubt) which agency would collect the fine? It would be amusing to turn myself into this agency on my next visit, as "guilty of being a Jedi". (If they are going to talk about fining people they should expect this). Perhaps we should ask Lucas to start a legal fund on our behalf...
I would love to see them try to collect the fines. Imagine if Aussie Jedi stuck to their guns (er, sabers), refused to pay, and went to jail for being a Jedi!
You're a little confused. The government already DOES give to charities that are run by churches. The catch is that the charities services DON'T involve evangelism: they do actual charity work. They are almost always legally and financially distinct from the direct church leadership. There's nothing wrong with this. What's wrong with Bush's plan is that it wants to give money to programs in which there IS no distinction between the charity and the evangelism services: where money goes not into food or drug treatment, but rather into evangelical materials and worship services.
Comparing to the 1996 numbers, Jedi's ~70,000 puts it close to "Churches of Christ (75k), "Jehova's Witness" (83k), Salvation Army (74k) and Judaism (80k) and ahead of Hinduism (68k) and the ever popular "No religion" (69k)
Not only was I a Jedi, but my family background was "OTHER" ____Tatooine_____
Haven't been arrested yet.
Actually Jedio are acceptable in Australia, its the Arabs that the government is indoctrinating us to hate...
* * Always question "the National Interest" - 9 times out of 10 it is a cover for evil
The government here needed to be told fuck off, freedom of speech here - doesn't exist and things like this just prove it
If the goverment here pushes for fines against the people who wrote Jedi on an optional question then an appropriate response would be to FORCE them to make jedi a registered religion through the existing legal channels
If it can be recognised in the U.K why not here, just another form of suppression
What would these be? A death star? Some tiny hut in the middle of the Outback? A sky-high tower for the top Jedi masters?
Jedi was recognised in the recent UK census as a statically significant category.1 /pdfs/secti on5part3.pdf (Page 18)
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/census200
However what I found really interesting was some of the other choices in the ~150 different categories including:
Scientology
Nearly 100 different versions of Christianity.
Heathen, Atheist, Agnostic, Realist, Idealist, Rationalist, Humanist, Secularist.
If something is true it is be definition not a hoax.
c ti on5part3.pdf
The simple fact is Jedi was recorded as a statically significant sample, it was recognised by the census, it was categorised by the census, and the result will be published in the census results, in due course.
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/census2001/pdfs/se
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck you may as well call it a duck.
I hope they fine them *so much*. A bunch of losers trying to be funny using a lame-assed idea they got from an Internet chain letter.
Not so hilarious when a big fat $1000 fine lands on the doormat are you?
If the "jedi" are serious about their faith, they need to form a church!!!
The "Force" is like the Chinese "Chee" (Qi) that permeates everything. Medicine, architecture (geomancy), martial arts, religion, etc seek to balance and maximize the Chee.
The site http://www.geocities.com/lucas_hale/census.html has a copy of the email. Also http://www.theage.com.au/frontpage/2001/04/19/FFX2 AMAEPLC.html is an article that appeared early on in the hoax. This is all really old news. It was a big deal here in Oz of awhile and I think the threats of fines scared alot of people off.
Lucas
>
> Hey that's from the New Testament. Orthodox Jedis don't believe in that shit...
No - it's from the, as yet incompletely revealed, old testament. Before Saint Luke lost his hand for your sins, he said that those old beliefs (and the prohibition of eating Ewok) does not matter any more.
The invisible pink unicorns stamp you pagan Jedis into the grassy fields anyway.
Am I the only one shocked that there are 1000 times more jedi in Australia than there were in the entire movie Attack of the Clones (which is supposedly to show the number of jedi that kept peace on an entire galaxy?
:)
I guess since Star Wars saga took place a long, long time ago, the jedis have since multiplied.
For those who want to know the full story, visit http://www.abs.gov.au/websitedbs/D3110124.NSF/24e5 997b9bf2ef35ca2567fb00299c59/86429d11c45d4e73ca256 a400006af80!OpenDocument
Note particularly the section headed: ABS has not issued warnings or threats to anyone. Can anyone say: "journalistic integrity"?
My guess?
Since almost all of the AC posts I've seen in this sub-thread are pro-Christianity, I'' say those ACs are:
50%- Trolls
20%- people who want to secretly bolster their own opinions (either through comments or moderation)
30%- Christians who sort-of believe, but are afraid of being ridiculed for their beliefs - maybe if they hurry, they can get 3 AC comments before the cock crows!
Bah, the Jedi are weak! Trekkies UNITE against these insolent fools!
... there is no spoon
> You'd need to define "Jedi" a bit loosely to include Anakin/Vader
Very loosely. Anakin was a Jedi, but when he turned to the dark side, he became Sith, which is opposed to Jedi, not equal to it. To lump them together is equivalent to labelling a murdering Satanist as a Christian.
Virg
There's nothing wrong with a Druid that eats meat. It's part of the circle of life. Just like when I die, I want to be able to rot into the earth or sea, as anything else is abomination. You'd have much stronger grounds if the hypothetical were the Druid that serves double duty as a lumberjack. A lot of misperception about Druidism circulated with the terrible book "21 Lessons of Merlyn". For a much better book, try "Tree Wisdom".
It is not Princess Leah, it is Princess Leia!
I mean, I don't care that much, but this bugs me in the same way that writing "it's" instead of "its" bugs me. If you write, try to write properly!
Grumble, grumble...
It's important to note in the examples above that the Old Testament has been superceded by the New Testament... Old Testament is now Obiter Dicta...
;p
I don't want to tell you what to believe, but Christians shouldn't be dictating the rules from Exodus, (ie Homosexuality is no more 'wrong' than wearing a shirt made of cotton and wool at the same time, or only having one kitchen to cater for milk, meat and others) and atheists shouldn't be pointing out the contradictions between the Old and New Testament - because that was the whole point of Christ, was to 'give a new commandment' that superceded the ten, which had had their run.
But it makes me think - maybe you should have about 4000 years between any sequel
(or in this case, at leat 20 years)
---- *dog sitting next to a computer, with his beady eyes shifting left to right*
Jedi were an invention of Lucas and Campbell. Much of the Jedi connection lies with Christian belief. They could be considered a new Christian sept. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
Just because someone calls themselves a xtian, just because someone goes to church, just because someone owns a Bible does not make them a xtian.
Google has a whole directory category related to this:
r /P ranks/Jedi_Religion_on_Census_Forms/
http://directory.google.com/Top/Recreation/Humo
Looks like the idea origionated in New Zealand, where I wrote Jedi on my cencus form. Looks like the 'stralians are typically claiming that one as there own aswell.
I wonder how big was the percentage of the Australians that were found to put "CowboyNealism" or smth in that vein into this "Faith" column on the answer form?
VKh