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Will Microsoft Subsidize WinXP For Lindows Buyers?
kinema writes "Ars Technica has an interesting little article about Microsoft's alleged "dumping" of Windows XP. It seems that Microsoft is selling XP through TigerDirect for only US$50 to customers who have purchased a Lindows computer." Note that Tiger says nothing like this on their site (No, you can't buy WinXP for $50 there); Lindows CEO Michael Robertson says (in the linked column) that "Microsoft's latest offers to TigerDirect are extremely lucrative and I wouldn't be surprised if they ultimately cave to Microsoft's pocketbook." PR ploy or reality, you decide.
If you had bought a Lindows system, why would you wanna buy XP. You've obviously made a choice not to buy windows.
-- Karma Karma Karma Karma, Karma Chameleon - Boy George
I mean, do we *really* want Lindows to be the thing the masses at large associate with linux, or alternative OSes in general?
Machine9dotNet
Like the friendly neighborhood drug dealer, Bill says, "Here, have this first taste on me..."
People who have bought Lindows PCs are not going to want to spend yet another $50 bux on something that their computer does for them already.
From what I've seen the concept is to eliminate the M$ tax and make the machine as cheap as possible...this kinda defeats the purpose for the user.
I dont know that this is new news,
Microsoft seems to have been taking heat for something or another for as long as I can remember.
On the otherhand, all compitition play dirty. Dont they?
How Now Brown Cow
Price dumping implies Microsoft is selling it below cost. It costs far less than $50 to produce a WindowsXP CD.
OddManIn: A Game of guns and game theory.
Is it even possible for software to be subject to "dumping" laws? Doesnt the product need to be sold for less than it's manufacturing cost? Sorry if i am misinformed.
.. this is the kind of stuff that's illegal in EU and there's no Bush here to save you in court.
Is the US market enough for you, Microsoft? Because that's where you're going to end up owning your monopoly - and only there.
it's in my head
So, the main competitor to M$ for home-user computer Operating Systems allegdes that M$ is discounting windows XP when specifically targetting Lindows users?
Could be, certainly within the GatesBorgs resources and methodology. Equally however, this could be a cleverly designed ploy to increase the profile of Lindows.
I'll wait on some hard evidence.
Note: I'm not saying I like M$, but I'm certainly not about to go off on some raving Linux-fanboi rant without seeing some evidence first.
An infinite number of monkeys will eventually come up with the complete works of
Now, this might be right and it might not be. But I wouldn't take Michael Robertson as a reliable source on things Microsoft related, particulary with (at this point) no evidence to back him up. The man who put up a large sum of money to effectively sponsor the XBox hacking competition doesn't seem to be especially objective.
Read reviews of shopping cart software
IF and it is a BIG IF, if this is true then what happened to the Anti-Monopoly laws?
Interesting that in all of their supreme intelligence the DOJ and judge thought that their measures would tame the beast.
AND IF and again it is a BIG IF. It it is true. MS should be split right then and there into multiple companies... Sometimes the buck has to stop!
"You can't make a race horse of a pig"
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
Maybe we should pool our resources so we can offer a cheap version of Linux to people who buy systems with Windows XP!
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Even $50 is too much!
C'mon M$, how low can you go? I've got an OS here that is Free (as in beer!), let's see you match THAT!
This sounds as if a lot of users bought Lindows thinking it was Windows (the average walmart user isnt going to realize there is a huge difference) and then wondered why [insert game name here] didn't work,
the average user is only influenced by price, they dont care if its closed or open source just wether it works and runs all the latest games etc,
this confusion can only get worse, but then what did Lindows expect ? they purposley named their product as close as they could to their biggest competitor (by 1 letter no less)
you get what you pay for
I would think this would be great for Lindows users.
This would make it cheap to make a dual-boot computer! I wouldn't mind having a Lindows computer for some daily work and piddling around. I would setup the dual-booting for games that only run on Windows. I could see paying $50 for it, but not $200...
I'm not a big Microsoft fan, but I am a game fan.
dochood
Why is it that anything Microsoft does is considered bad?
When Microsoft overcharged $200 for WinXP, everyone was criticizing them. Now that they are releasing it for a more reasonable price, they are still getting criticized. We should decide on the price we want. Do you want WinXP at $200 or $50. I would rather have $50.
Besides, is competition not one of the good things GNU/Linux has done to Microsoft? When they had no competition they kept high prices. Now they are reducing prices to compete. Is that not what we want?
This product called Linux is offered for FREE for users of Windows.
Now that, my friends, is price dumping.
Microsoft is not above the law. Microsoft can operate in certain bands. These bands are the law of the lands and its contracts.
Microsoft can buy its way out of many situations. But when it is clear how the market is manipulated, where the money goes, it becomes possible to assess the law, the contracts vis a vis what is done.
So yes, by documenting what is objectively done, you get a situation where a Dell can ask for the same rebate, where a justice department can start an investigation, where another organisation decides that there is an alternative and look into it.
Thanks,
Gerard
PR ploy or reality, you decide.
/. poster with an overly creative mind. Microsoft couldn't give a rip about Lindows or any poor sucker that bought a bluelight Walmart special.
Neither, just some
I swear, there should make a "creative writing" section (and even icon with it)!
SEO Copywriter. Just Say ON
Here's the article I submitted.
Since MS is declared a Destructive Monopoly in the courts all Lindows has to do is the following.
1) Gather Information on what MS is doing to Stifle Competition.
2) Sue.
3) Win.
It's That Simple.
In Soviet Russia, Trojan exploits YOU!
Everyone should expect to see small things like this begin to trickle out of Microsoft over the coming few years--they're seeing that the slow push of lost market share is starting to hurt them. Add in the fact that whole COUNTRIES are deliberately dumping Windows (Germany, India), and they're going to start resorting to things like this which will put a hit over time onto their massive cash reserves of $40 billion. You can compare it to the TV networks and their endless pathetic grabs for ratings with reality TV--they're desperate, hungry, and scared, but won't admit that they're losing the battle to cable television. Does anyone really think Bill Gates will hold a press conferance saying "Linux has us by the balls, in the long term"? No; we'll get things like this, quiet little sad grabs for market share.
Dude, where's my packet?
No surprise that TigerDirect would do something like this. Bill is probably giving them a hefty profit margin on the sales too. TigerDirect would sell their own mother into slavery if it would turn a profit. About 6 years ago I bought some rinky-dink thing from them and got on their spam-list. Ever since then, I get spam about once a day from them. No matter what I do, phone, email, snail-mail, "unsubscribe" via their web server - nothing will get me off the list.
Not only that, but they sell (er, "Rent") their spam list to other spammers. I know this because I have my own domain, so I can track who does what with my addresses - for example, amazon thinks my address is amazon@mydomain.com and tigerdirect things I am tigerdirect@mydomain.com - so when I start getting non-tigerdirect email sent to tigerdirect@mydomain.com I know they gave away my address. I wouldn't be surprised if Bill has bought a list of TigerDirect's lindows customers to use for targetted FUD. Hell, if he has their email addresses, they may end up being the recipient of the world's first linux email trojan...
I've long since put any mail addressed to tigerdirect@mydomain.com into a direct-to-devnull kill filter, but according to my logs they still keep sending me crap. Don't trust them for a minute.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
Some of Linux's purported advantages over Microsoft are:
1. Lower licensing fees ($0).
2. Freedom from proprietary encumberment
3. Better security
4. More rapid bug fixes
5. Community support
It just sounds like Microsoft has chosen to compete on the first point. It's really only monopolistic behavior *if* they try to force deals by taking unfair advantage of their monopoly position. Competing on price is not that.
At least with Lindows, its yours, you own your copy. Not only that with, with Lindows you retain the right to continue to access your data.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
As a CD cost next to nothing in production cost they doesn't stand to loose much. On the other hand they distract people who away from lindows by saying: "Hey! Come get the real thing(tm) for only $50". My best guess is that lindows will suffer from this tactic move.
Unethical, sure, but thats not new. Squash competition before the competitor has any money. Seen many times before!
Did he really think by naming his product 1 letter away from his closest competitor they was just going to lie down and take it ?
hell they couldnt even make their website look original and copied Apple
I recently bought a bare bones, no-OS system from tigerdirect. I later received a survey from them via email that was a thinly veiled survey direct from Microsoft. They offered an $80 gift certificate off the purchase of XP if you filled it out. I filled it out anyway. It basically asked what OS you use, how many computers you have, what word processing program you use, and why (i.e. price, performance, features, etc.)
One would expect Microsoft to do the same kind of thing with any other releases in the future as well, so it does matter. It won't just be limited to Lindows.
Microsoft are bastards but they're not stupid. If this was true it would be solid evidence against them. In court there is no question wether MS has a monopoly or not, it's just wether they abused it or not. This is quite a blatant abuse of power.
Lindows is free(beer), so what's to stop anyone who actually really just wants Windows XP from downloading Lindows first, then using that to leverage a quick discount for themselves?
If MS has to cut their prices for EVERY non-pre-bundled installation of WinXP, that could really pinch their budget. Of course, the fewer sales they make, the better, overall, but still, cutting their margins that significantly for every license holder gives me a nice warm feeling.
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
Exactly. Tell the customer: "buy Lindows for $50, then buy XP for $50, throw your Lindows into the trash, and notice how you've only paid $100 for your XP rather than $200"! And most users would be curious enough to keep Lindows around (rather than throwing it away), and might have a look at it one boring Sunday afternoon. In conclusion, this looks like an excellent deal for the customer, for Lindows, and for Linux in general!
For several days, the Ars crowd has been discussing this. The discussion is worth reading through
I don't think that this will work well mainly because the people buying $200 computers won't pay $50 for something their computer already has, and more importantly, they wouldn't know what to do with it. Installing an operating system, which while isn't that hard, is not something that is not done by many people. I only envision 2 groups of people buying these computers. Those that don't know much about computers, and those that know too much about computers. The first group would be even less likely to try to undertake installing an OS and the later would already own a license for Windows or be smart enough to install some other OS.
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. -Ghandi
The only surprise here is that Microsoft is acknowledging how overpriced Windows is. I loaded OpenOffice on my son's computer for his homework last night. For the average user with light word processing needs, Redmond's bloatware much too expensive as well.
What's the big deal here? Companies have been offering cheap upgrades for years. If you have a mobile phone from company X, you can almost always get a mobile phone from company Y for less than the "normal" price.
Microsoft has done this before, as well. When Windows 2000 was released, it cost $250, but it was available as an "upgrade" for $120. There was no requirement that the upgrade be from an earlier version of Windows; in fact, it was explicitly stated that this was an upgrade "from any operating system".
Tarsnap: Online backups for the truly paranoid
That's OK, we all make mistakes.
Now GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY RESTAURANT.
Hmmm.
IIRC with WinXP you are only purchasing a subscription for a year or so. So, assuming that and no price hikes, if the effective life of your system is 3 years, then $50 / year is still $150 and for 5 years it's $250.
At least with Lindows, its yours, you own your copy. Not only that with, with Lindows you retain the right to continue to access your data
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
The next Slashdot story will be ready for rejection soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and see it rejected early! :-D
--- I wish I could hear the soundtrack to my life. That way I'd know when to duck.
...because soon linux will have been destroyed by SCO.
You won't find XP for $50 on Tiger's site. According to the article and the associated web page, Tiger sends MS a list of customers who bought Lindows machines and MS will give them a rebate towards the purchase of XP for "taking a survey"
This bothers me on two levels. First is the dumping factor. MS will get out of that because in this case they are "buying market research data" from the customer with that rebate. Second is how yet again personal information is sold between companies. I'm very close to forming an LLC just to act as an "agent" for all my purchases.
I've been on slashdot so long I'm starting to get out of touch with the cool stuff if it ain't on slashdot.
I'm buying a new house in a couple of months - if they want to help subsidize that for me, it'll be a pleasure for me to switch one of my PC's over from Linux to XP. Bill can even pick the one for me - the Mandrake box, the RedHat box, or the Slackware box. Any one of 'em is fine by me!
Of course, I'll leave Linux on all the rest of my systems, I won't let him touch my e-Smith server, and I'll keep my Macs, but he'll get one PC's additional market share and I'll get a free house out of the deal (heck, I'll even pay $50 for the house). That is what I call a win-win scenario!
-- Josh Turiel
"2. Do not eat iPod Shuffle."
If they can make some sort of profit at $50 in a depressed economy, why have they been selling thier OS's for $200-500 in good econimies?
You say things that offend me and I can deal with it. Can you?
I love linux as much as the next geek. Heck, I'm running gentoo right now. But from a consumer perspective, those Lindows PC (when they're running Lindows) are junk. Relatively few scanners, printers or digital cammeras will work with them. Especially the kind of cheap scanners, printers and digital cammeras that a person buying a $200 computer is likely to buy. The software is going to be, like it or not, unfamiliar to nearly all consumers. Plus it won't run all those games and apps consumers see on the shelfs, and tech support lines aren't 24hrs (I know this isn't an issue for people reading this, but to joe average this really matters). This is not to say Lindows is a bad distro (It's not, it's actually pretty good and getting better). It's just not ready to go head to head with windows like this.
:), after they're established. In other words, I want them to behave like apple, at least early on, and find themselves a nice moneymaking nitch. By selling the hardware themselves (or by proxy by controlling what walmart is bundling) they can control compatibilty and give the user a more consistent experience.
So why do I want MS subsidizing XP on those boxes? Because every unit they move is a little money into Lindow's pocket. Maybe not as much as somebody buying click-and-run, but it's better than the nothing they'd get if the end-user just returns the damn thing because none of there peripherals and software works. Because as it stands now, Lindows by itself isn't going to make it.
What I really like to see from Lindows is them selling a complete package. Computer, monitor, printer, scanner, cammera w/smartmedia reader and software to make it all work. Brand the whole shebang, maybe take a loss on some components so you can make your money elsewhere, and above all abandon the silly notion that they're going to make money competing with microsoft right off the bat. That comes later
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
Frankly, in light of the settlement, whereby Microsoft was going to give away copies of their software with a total retail value of $x, the requirements ought to be adjusted in view of the retail price they are now offering for Windows XP (assuming the story is to be believed).
There have been a lot of posts claiming that Microsoft is "dumping" XP on the market at below cost to drive away competition. There is a problem with this: as another poster has mentioned, "dumping" is defined as selling an item below the variable cost (i.e. per-unit cost). A full XP box set costs less than $50 to produce, so this is not "dumping."
Secondly, Microsoft is doing exactly what every company does when presented with competition: they are lowering their prices. They see Lindows as a competing product to their own, so they are lowering the price. Now, their ability to offer that discount only to buyers of Lindows machines is a result of a tool called "price discrimination." Under perfect price discrimination, each consumer of a product would be charged exactly the maximum that he is willing to pay for the product. There is nothing inherently bad about this, it simply creates several prices for a single product, similar to what Amazon was accused of doing in an earlier article here.
Microsoft has simply lowered the price of XP to customers of Lindows only, because they know that other consumers will continue to pay the higher price. This is textbook price discrimination and nothing more.
you're most likely on a computer that cannot run WinXP very well anyways. I would stick with a system that does the essentials like surfing the web, checking email and what not. That is what these machines are for. If you're looking to have a machine without an os then build it yourself. You'll learn a lot more about computers and it's a lot more fun than buying a cheap Wal-Mart computer and working with that.
___ Shout Central - Crushes your nuts!
Assuming the article is true, MS is specifically offering deep discounts on WinXP to those who have bought Lindows computers, not to the general public. This would obviously target those who are sitting on the fence with respect to Linux and try to herd them back into the MS camp. This would have the effect of cutting into Lindows' $99/year "click and run" subscription revenue stream and hopefully drive Lindows into bankruptcy. Does "We're going to cut off their air supply" ring any bells?
Yep, and as soon as the contract is signed and you have title bye-bye windows.
why not trying it out and someone who buys a PC at that place, should try to get that winxp special 50$ price.
then we would know how microsoft tries to take over the world, at any price.
who is gonna shut down those microsloth dudes at last.
fuck them monopolies
Windows XP for $50.00 wouldn't surprise me. Here at The University of Akron, the students and faculty can buy a University copy of Windows and/or Office XP for $20.00. That's actually expensive, seeing as just over a year ago I purchased Windows 2k for $10.00. Obviously when Microsoft wants to push its product in a certain market it is willing to kill its profit margins. And I agree with many of you - I don't like it. Reminds me of Apple and the way they pushed themselves into the education market. That combined with a techno-stupid administration meant I had to grow up in a school district saturated with useless computers that weren't compatible with what I had at home. Also - as stated above, I can see where people who purchase Lindows machines would want "what everyone else has". My family, for instance, would not be able to handle the differences and technical issues. Well - they would - it would just mean I'd be spending all my free time playing "volunteer technical support guy"...screw that! And really I'm included in that group. I still run Windows on my main box. It's just easy. I don't have to worry about dependencies and software issues - I just click and go. It's easy, convenient, and to many people it is worth the $50.00. Is it ugly business practice - hell yeah! - but who's going to stop them?
rather than dumping. IANAL, but I thought most countries had laws that are supposed to prevent the kind of practice alleged here: offering substantial incentives only to a specific competitors customers in an attempt to drive that competitor out of business.
no conspiracy here. Just the simple fact that OEMs pay less for Windows than Joe Schmoe would at retail.
I want to make sure that I don't overlook an important facet of the proposed discount. That Microsoft considers Windows XP only $50 superior to Lindows in enough ways that the discount is warranted. Is this a testimony for Linux on the desktop or what? If the Lindows product (tightly controlled for a Linux distro) did not have sufficient quality to make it an alternative, then MS wouldn't be paying so much attention to it. I do not use Lindows, I am a Debian guy myself, but I have to be honest... I'm interested in taking a look at what Lindows has to offer, which makes you wonder if the discount MS is offering is going to have the intended effect.
But isnÂt that exactly what they are not supposed to do under the terms of the settlement with the DoJ?
as a Christmas present for somebody. It was the low-end Wal-Mart special. Decent box. Just perfect for email and web browsing.
Lindows is great *if* you utilize their $100/year Click-N-Run Warehouse service. If you're don't, there's no real incentive to use them over RedHat or Debian (Lindows is based on Debian). In fact, without the CNR subscription, it's *less* useful; there aren't any books out there for "Lindows," and the RH books outnumber the Debian titles by a large margin.
Installing OpenOffice.org on the machine makes it close enough to MS-Office compatible for her; the only thing it won't do is run those Outlook trojans that keep going around.
The recipient was not somebody I'd call computer literate; they just wanted a machine that would allow them to send and receive email ad web browse; the Lindows box was perfect.
I really hope that RMS and ESR bought a bare bones, no-OS system from tigerdirect recently too. I'd like to see the look on the face of the lackey who got to tabulate those survey results.
(imagine voice of pimply faced kid from the Simpsons)
"uhh, what do we do if somone attached a 500 page essay to their survey?"
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
Ordinary clones are listening to their guru, not any corporation. If the guru/consultant population is moving away from Microsoft, Microsoft is in trouble no matter how much they try to recapture Linux users.
How many people would take advantage of this with honorable intentions of returning to the mother ship? I'd use it for an easy and legal stopgap for the day where 100 percent Linux usage becomes possible.
Note to zealots: it's not there yet.
Laws are for people with no friends.
Why would a Windows user care about the command line? Seems like the whole point of Windows is to put more emphasis on a GUI than arcane textual commands.
Not many people know of the the wintergreensys.com connection with Lindows and Tigerdirect.
... back in October wintergreen started making budget PCs similiar to Microtel/Walmart machines ... but with a Duron processor,modem,and floppy drive. Making money on these machine is hard due to the almost non-existant margins. Needless to say the quality of these machines was poor ... and due to the inexperience of the manufacturer the quality control was poor. This all equates to one of the highest return rates that Tiger Direct ever had for a system ... though the hardware and software problems are lumped together in that rate ... the excessive hardware problems helped to inflate that number alot. Over time the hardware situation has improved greatly and the system that wintergreen put out are much less likely to fail. But all of this has left a bad taste in Tiger's mouth. Another thing you have to understand is that Tiger Direct gets money for promoting a product ... Lindows hasn't paid and left a prime positiion open for Mircosoft. Microsoft has given money to Tiger in return Tiger will give the names of past Wintergreen/Lindows system owners and send them a rebate for XP home to put on there machines. So that is some history directly from a Wintergreen employee.
A little history
...indicate which printers work under linux. The printers they sell are labeled with compatibility with various windows flavors, and even apple flavors, but nearly every printer lacks information if it will run with a linux operating system. Since linux is heavily entrenched now for servers, and since printers are normally connected to servers even on small networks, it would be useful to know which printers run with linux. And once the printer manufacturers start seeing their competitors supporting linux, and that fact showing up in the sales descriptions, and the other manufacturers obtaining an edge, they are going to start sweating and think twice about whether they are going to enable linux support...or not.
Once we get the linux info on the printers, there may start to be some push to include linux support with the multi-function machines, which is what I'm waiting for.
TigerDirect, you stop selling Lindows computers, or cave to microsoft pressure, and I'll stop buying them from you. And other hardware as well.
I already wrote to you in an email about labeling which printers and other hardware works with linux, and I'm probably the only one who wrote you such an email recently, so you should know who I am, and know that I buy the Lindows computers regularly, along with quite a bit of other hardware. Just so that you know this isn't the idle threat of an anon coward, but a real threat of losing a big spending customer.
And considering your rating in reseller ratings, and the warnings about your company I'm getting on mailing lists, you can't afford to lose too many large customers.
We evaluated a Lindows PC for use in a Citrix/Terminal Server environment here at my work. There were a couple problems.
1) The Lindows PC didn't run any of the binary releases of the Citrix client availaible from their web site.
2) The Lindows PC didn't have a compiler that would allow me to compile the Citrix Client from source. Nor could I compile rdesktop to use the RDP protocol.
4) In the end I had to set up a java jump page on my web server for the Lindows PC to be able to log into Citrix via Java. It was less than pretty and was not the solution my company needed.
5) That PC is now running Windows 2000 Pro in our shipping department. For 200 bucks I'd gladly buy 10 of them and throw win98 and a Terminal Server client on it to replace our other aging PCs. At least everything will have the same hardware. (The PC's come with a driver disk that has all of the windows drivers on it.)
Apple free since 1990!
Isn't it almost obvious, given recent interviews with top MS execs about a 50 million dollar fund for exactly this purpose? You can't expect Microsoft to allow anyone to discuss the terms of this type of deal, so if you're waiting for hard evidence all you're going to get is a statement from TigerDirect saying "no, we decided to drop Lindows because of poor sales." You're also not going to see WindowsXP for $50 a pop, Microsoft may have reasons to sell below market but TigerDirect sure doesn't.
no problem. it's early, and I still have yet to get that coffee.
In the artical he asks: if TigerDirect is functioning as an OEM, shouldn't they be bound by the uniform licensing agreement that Microsoft is supposed to have with its partners?
The answer could be that the "uniform licensing agreement" only applies to the biggest OEMs (the top ten as I remember??). Even if it were one of the big OEMs MS can easily get around it by offering "market development funds" to the OEMs that don't offer Linux.
I can't open word documents the security folks send me that are generated by the ISS security scanner. It's the only reason I have to use Word... OO.o sits and spins (so to speak) for the 30 seconds it normally takes to come up, and then disappears. Great.
Economic sciences define monopoly market-position to be :
"When a company can, by means of market position or money, prevent normal competition in a market."
Now, there is no question that Microsoft holds such a power in the PC/OS market, and I think it's very hard to see this move by Microsoft (if true) as something else than using it's monopoly power to prevent "normal competition".
echo '[q]sa[ln0=aln80~Psnlbx]16isb572CCB9AE9DB03273snlbxq' |dc
Of course had the Japs won WWII, Ghandi would have said:
"First they march you through hundereds of miles through the jungle heat, then they shoot you, then they disembowel you, then you lose."
Lets say I wanted to buy a box with Win XP and I heard about this deal. I could buy the Lindows box and claim my $50 copy of Win XP.
Result:
-I would get what I want for $150-250 less.
-Lindows would get some $ from the purchase, as they are now.
-M$ would loose $150-250 per box!
If all the effort you geeks use to type rants can be code instead, your "free" software movement just might work.
the ars technica article admits that the accuracy of the original column, which was written by the lindows CEO, may not be entirely based on fact. the slashdot editor ends the slashdot post with "PR ploy or reality, you decide." i'd rather read and discuss topics that are somewhat true instead of what could possibly be one man's effort to shape public opinion against microsoft for the benefit of a linux company that many slashdot readers don't really care about.
Why did I lurk so long before registering for a Slashdot account? I could have had a Slashdot ID of less than 100000.
and Lindows, Microsoft will pay you $300 to run Windows XP.
let's see who sells below development cost:
/. readers should realize that MS can do whatever it wants with its pricing.
netscape
linux
freebsd
winamp
aim
I guess it is only immoral/bad when Microsoft sells/gives away software below development cost.
did not EU rule on this some time ago that MS could not dump its OS products onconsumers by lowering the price below costs?..
Don't Tread on OpenSource
Not too long ago, Ballmer gave an interview and said that MS was concerned about the cheap Linux boxes being sold because the owners would turn around and put pirated XP on them in under a week. This is an interview within the last 3 weeks or so, but I couldn't find the link. This is a typical MS FUD tactic. Provide some hearsay evidence that Joe Sixpack runs down to WalMart and gets his Lindows box to turn around and get a warez XP. That is, Ballmer says 'cheap Linux box == piracy' - first step in the plan. Now they pull this stunt at TigerDirect and you'll see that MS will give some explanation that their trying to stop 'piracy'. Walmart may be a different story. Bill Gates may be the richest guy in the world, but at least 3 people on the top ten list have the last name 'Walton'.
I've been swashdotted -- Elmer Fudd
Though not everyone wants that specific feature, everyone has a specific feature that they want. That is the general case.
As far as people using the wrong tool for the job, what happens when your manager sends you a presentation? Will you be asking your manager why he's using the wrong tool for the job? Or will he be asking you how come you can't open this document that everyone else can?
I'm all for the Linux movement and all, which is why to the point of this article, I'd have to say that MS is making a dangerous move to displace the OS preference. This is clearly monopoly anti-competitive selling. Unfortunately the statement by Lindows CEO is rather dissappointing.
"Last one in is a rotten goblin!" - Kepp
My less-technically-inclined parents are begging me to put Linux on their computer.
Why?
Because their Windows system has hosed itself or been wiped out by viruses and trojan horses four times in the last year or two. Every time they get it all working again, suddenly they have an infestation of pop-up penis enlargement ads, or everyone they know starts getting e-mailed virus file attachments. Even when Windows is not obviously hosed, it tends to crash and otherwise behave erratically, because they're not technically astute, so they don't know how to tune Windows to be reliable.
They only use the computer for e-mail, web, word processing, spreadsheet, and other simple tasks that can easily be handled with open source software. They only occasionally need to exchange documents with other people, and OpenOffice's compatibility will be fine for that purpose.
What they want is a computer that's reliable--both in the sense of not crashing, and in the sense of continuing to work without being reinstalled every six months. Not having to pay Microsoft annual fees is merely a bonus.
So I'm gonna give 'em Xandros, just on the off chance that they really do still need one or two pieces of Windows software. If they don't, they've got a Debian system, so it's all good. I'll set up a bunch of Debian mirrors for dselect/apt, and when my dad wants a piece of software to do whatever, I'll tell him to open a terminal window and type apt-get install [whatever]. If there's a security problem, I'll tell him to do apt-get update; apt-get dist-upgrade. In fact, I'll probably set up an icon on the desktop to do it.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
This case is different. Buying a cheap Lindows machine from Tiger leaves you with 1) a cheap, usable box you can play with or give to your aunt 2) a possible opportunity to get an XP license at below market rates which you can presumably resell to pay off the computer 3) a chance to support Lindows, Lindows retailers and open source desktops in general and 4) a chance to remove revenue from Microsoft by removing a full-priced XP sale. 2 and 4 may be speculative but 1 and 3 are a sure thing.
If you have a few bucks sitting around and have been thinking about playing with Lindows, now would be a good time.
mt
I'm confused as to the point of this; TigerDirect isn't selling WInXP for $50, so what's the point. It seems to me to be akin to the idea of Linux going closed source, or the sky turning pink...
You're running windows 2000 Pro on 128 MB Ram? That's how much memory you get with the $200 model (which is actually $220 months ago, and now with a rebate, at TigerDirect).
Citrix is for windows.
Here's my experience:
I bought the lindows $220 boxes through TigerDirect. I had an account already at TigerDirect. I could have saved $20 by buying through walmart instead, but then I'd get a slower celery processor, instead of the 1.3 Ghz Duron I got from TigerDirect. And I'd have to release personal info to another company, walmart, and their privacy policy sucks, and they also collect sales tax in my state.
While the hard drive was advertised as 10 GB, my boxes formatted out to 13.9 GB.
What am I using them for? I didn't try to put citrix or win2000 on them, especially not with 128MB of Ram. I got rid of Lindows immediately, and installed suse 8.0 on them. I've recently upgraded to 8.1 on one box, and will be finally upgrading them to debian, afterwhich the upgrades will be automatic and perpetual. They are happily file and print serving, serving web sites with apache, serving music and video files on the lan, serving a database, and more.
I have a friend who's installing them in his lab as terminals for his workers. At $220 plus shipping, it's a joke. He's ditching the DOS 6.0, windows for workgroups 3.11, and novell 2.0/upnetone database server. Someone else is porting the upnetone database to MySQL, and I'm helping with the terminals, file/print server, database server, remote X server, and related installations. After lengthy testing, everything has been working flawlessly with a few users and dummy database data. The setup is a one dual processor box that will run all the server software (he already bought the box from ebay with a new novell license for their latest release, don't know the number), and 37 of the Lindows boxes for the employees (a spare for emergencies/backup, plus some boxes that will be running software related to his laboratory without users, he has less than 30 employees).
It's a little retarded to run citrix/windows 2000 on the stock lindows boxes. As terminals for remote X from a server, that's the sweet spot for these boxes. And for loads using linux, (not citrix) that would rival a much beefier box running windows 2000.
And the wildcard is going to be the knoppix distro with the openMosix patch. I can't wait to try this out on my gaggle of Lindows boxes. Thanks to this new distro (knoppix/openMosix), I'm putting everything on one Lindows server (apache, MySQL, mail, dns, music, and more) and will be connecting additional boxes to this one, via the openMosix cluster patch. And the additional boxes will be set up to be backups of the main box. So I'll have a web/database/mail/dns/etc cluster of debian-based/openMosix boxes.
I've run the TigerDirect/Lindows boxes (using suse) for many months as apache web servers, and they've hummed along without any problems, never requiring a reboot, shutdown, or crashing. And my local linux group uses them for student training, since they require the students to purchase the computers before starting the Linux 1 class they teach. They are priced right for me, and for the classes, and when the students are done with the classes, they leave with a fully functioning server on their hands that they can administer themselves. The satisfaction has been high in the classes with these boxes, and we haven't run into any problems installing suse, slackware, and other distros on them (the manufacturer does futz with the bios a bit, making it hard to boot from the cd, but you have to play with the settings and reboot a few times to overwrite the Lindows software).
One good tip would be, don't buy the lindows boxes if you are going to use them for citrix/windows. Buy them if you are going to use them for their intended purpose: flawlessly running a linux os with incredible uptimes, stability, and value.
a) I don't typically. The rest of my family does often email things like word docs around.
b) Usually they are communicating with people at work, who do email Excel, Word and PPT's on a very regular basis.
c) I only used office documents as an example.
d) I like to mess with my family by sending random binary attachments for which they have absolutely no use.
That is why I don't bother to submit anything(I did try it a couple of times).
It takes time to make a proper submission, and I must admit I feel that I have better things to do and after a few rejected submissons I thought "Fuck it, if they want content on their site, they can provide it themself". And I guess there's still plenty of people submitting.
I've said this before and I'll say it again.
Get a copy of Open Office. Its free and successfully opens doc, xls and ppt files. It runs on Windows and Linux.
I use Windows XP with Open Office. This is because I get any Microsoft Software except Office and Games for free because my university department (University of Hull, Department of Computer Science) has made some dodgy deal with them.
Loads of students want office, I just point out: use open office. Thats what I use and its great. It also works just as well under Lindows or Linux. Use Mozilla (like I do) as your mail client and you can just click on attatchments and open them. Again that also works in Linux or Lindows as well as Windows.
PS. Enjoy your coffee.
I'm so tired of this.
Ease of installation is a non-issue; ever used a modern distro like Red Hat, Mandrake, or SuSE? I've used Red Hat 6.2, 7.1 and am about ready to install 9.0; every one has had a very simple install process. Kudzu detects just about everything hardware-wise.
Furthermore, the ease-of-installation is a red herring; I'm one of the very few people that actually do OS installations; most people buy their machines with a factory-installed OS. "Ease of installation" means taking the machine out of its box, plugging it in and turning it on.
As far as ease of use goes, I have significantly less trouble getting new hardware to reliably work with my Red Hat Linux machine than with any Windows box I interact with, but that's mostly an application issue; Linux software appears to be written in a device-agnostic fashion while a lot of Windows software is tied to particular hardware configurations. aftermarket CD-RW drives are a good example. The included Windows-centric disc-burning software is invariably tied to that make and model drive and won't work with anything else.
I've heard dumping defined as selling a product for less than it took you to make it. It's a bit harder to judge this in the area of software, since it is very cheap to reproduce. However, I would think that by now Microsoft can easily sell Windows XP for $50 and still make a profit, so how is this dumping? It's just that MS has been overcharging before this.
I install windows regularly for some people I know (for free). I got by the lean years with others paying me to install Windows. They're not stupid. They're just computerphobes. Don't you have anything you're simply not good at or don't like messing with? Cars? Plumbing? Flowers? Some may say those things are not difficult but you may.
The point is it may not be a successful strategy based on the target market, but its an opportunity nonetheless. It's not altogether farfetched that some of them may decide to install windows over their linux box. They may even pay me to come and use their $50 windows to install over their lindows. Either way, getting that survey is probably the main objective, not the displacement of the OS. Displacement of OS is just a shot in the dark. You send in reconnaissance and light infantry before sending in your main battalion.
Mispelling of Linux was not a mistake. It's a feable attempt to confuse brand recognition. If they were really smart they would have just left Linux out and only included Lindows, since Lindows either comes with the box or is the option offered. The best way to bury brand recognition is obscurity.
"Last one in is a rotten goblin!" - Kepp
I have the wintergreen boxes. Duron 1.3 Ghz, 10 gig (formats to 13.9 GB) hard drive, 128 MB Ram, Intel modem, ethernet card, floppy drive, cdrom.
Have many of these boxes from TigerDirect, never had a hardware problem, pulled one of the modems and installed on a homemade duron/shuttle mb/256 MB DDR ram/box when the older modem failed, box is dual booting win98se/suse 7.3, never had a problem with the modem under linux or win98se (wintergreen happily provided the url for the windows driver on intel's site for the modem when I couldn't find the Tiger/wintergreen supplied cd/driver).
I have the boxes you are talking about, and am as happy as a pig in a poke with them.
One definition of "dumping" imo is to sell a
product below the cost of production in order
to gain market share. In that case, this may
not be true dumping, in the sense that Microsoft
probably still makes a profit selling XP for $50.
Moto Man
You stupid shit. This is called COMPETITION. This is what all the OSS freaks are always braying about. MS is dropping it's prices to COMPETE. So fuck off kid. You don't know what you're talking about, and you're nothing but another knee-jerk OSS fanatic drone without a brain.
Here is a link that gives a survey and promises $80 off win xp on the tiger direct sight.
S su rvey.php.html
http://info.lindows.com/microsoft-tigersurvey/M
I would like to believe that it's solely FOSS thats beginning to put a hurt on MS but I'm not sure. At least, I don't think it's just FOSS. Where I work, the emphasis is on maintaining what we have. We can't afford to upgrade much of anything right now. We can keep what we have working and that is just about it. MS is very much the Only Solution in the minds of many here but any attempt to "increase revenue" from us could start changing that. And anyway, MS is their own worst competitor. Lots of people are still running 98. Heck there's still 95 users. Many businesses are just now completing 2000 rollouts that they expect to stay with for several years.
MS has gotten a free ride while every other sector of IT has taken the brunt of the post-boom collapse. I don't think FOSS is doing much more than making them feel their share of the pain everyone else has had.
This is just simple economics. When you're flush with cash then everything has to be expensive, flashy, and loaded with bells and whistles. When times are tough, less elaborate yet functional solutions start getting "good enough" in a hurry. If the "good enough" solutions in question are visibly improving then so much the better.
Many have already made the point that the bad economy could be good for FOSS. I think that is finally starting to play out.
This is what Micheal had to say about microsoft paying off TigerDirect:
After my expose piece on Microsoft last week, I promised one reader that I wouldn't write about Microsoft again for awhile. Unfortunately, I think I have to break my promise and here's why: As I've written about previously, the real key to desktop Linux gaining momentum is to get retailers to sell computers with Linux preinstalled. Sure, some people are smart enough to download software from our web servers then burn a CD and install it, but the majority of people want to buy a computer, plug it in and have it ready to go. Getting Linux computers onto store shelves sounds easy -- what store wouldn't want to stock computers for $200-300? (I just bought a computer for $249 and upgraded the RAM from 128MBs to 256MBs for 30 bucks and it is a solid little performer!) Consumers really want affordable computers and any retailer who stocks them sells large quantities of them. It seems like it would be an easy decision, right?
There's one additional dynamic that comes into the equation - Microsoft's money to discourage retailers who start selling large numbers of LindowsOS computers. Microsoft routinely offers financial inducements to computer companies to not carry LindowsOS computers. With $40 billion in the bank, it's an easy decision for them to use a few million dollars to block Lindows.com from major retailers. Every month that Microsoft keeps their monopoly position, it is another billion or so in profit. You've probably heard rumors of such behavior in the past and maybe you're skeptical because the tales are, not surprisingly, light on facts. So allow me to give you the facts from one such retailer to convince you.
LindowsOS computers have been available from TigerDirect, a popular mail order technology business, run by a savvy CEO, Gilbert Fiorentino. After selling thousands of LindowsOS computers in the last few months, TigerDirect describes their experience with LindowsOS in their most recent catalog, saying they have found it to be "faster, leaner, and more stable than Microsoft Windows," mentioning how "...LindowsOS never crashed, even in extreme testing situations," and then go on to say that they are "more enthusiastic about the LindowsOS than ever."
We've met with TigerDirect in the past and they've remarked what great sellers the LindowsOS computers have been for them and how they were surprised at the demand for Microsoft alternatives. However, at these same meetings, they talked to us about e-mails and phone calls from Microsoft attempting to bribe them to stop selling LindowsOS computers.
While TigerDirect has resisted Microsoft's pressures in the past, recently Microsoft has stepped up orders to their staffers to increase the financial incentives to impede LindowsOS sales at TigerDirect. At some point, Microsoft's monetary inducements become so large that it makes economic sense for just about any retailer to abandon LindowsOS - no matter how many computers they might be selling. TigerDirect is in the business to make a profit and if Microsoft will guarantee them a profit, nobody can begrudge them for taking it.
Microsoft's latest offers to TigerDirect are extremely lucrative and I wouldn't be surprised if they ultimately cave to Microsoft's pocketbook. Microsoft is giving TigerDirect unheard of discounts on Microsoft software, allowing them to sell Microsoft Windows XP for just $50 to all of their customers who have purchased LindowsOS computers. TigerDirect is paying less for some copies of Microsoft Windows XP than even the largest Microsoft customers like Dell. Besides radically discounting their software, Microsoft is agreeing to spend a lot of marketing dollars to advertise their products through TigerDirect and more specifically to past LindowsOS computer buyers. Additionally, Microsoft is paying TigerDirect to collect market research on Li
I had one submission accepted and I had submitted it as an AC (before I was registered). I have tried several since, all rejected, and have seen a few show up (even days) later, submitted by someone else. I don't take it personally, but like you I decided, "Fuck it, it's not worth the work involved".
If you've installed windows you've probably violated the EULA.
EULA's don't mean much in the EU.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
buy XP licences for $50, sell it to someone else who in any case would pay $200 (or $100 for an upgrade) for a XP licence!!!!
Screw MS and make a friend happy at the same time!
Do you want WinXP at $200 or $50. I would rather have $50.
YOU may want it for $50.00, I don't want it at all. I would much rather stab the splintered end of a broken two by four through my own head than run XP. Even if I were paid to have XP I would not use it. At my work, I am sent occasionally to conferences, mostly Microsoft ones. Since XP has been on the market, Microsoft has been giving free certificates for NFD copies of XP. I've received three of these. I've never redeemed them, I just tear them up when leaving the conference. Call me extreme, or whatever, but I won't run XP. I dug ditches and roofed houses before getting into computers, and if Microsoft gets their way, and they are the only software available, I can easily go back to digging ditches and roofing houses.
For those who describe their systems as 'boxen', do you order multiple 'boxen' of corn flakes also?
Holy shit! With this story I see that Slashdot finally has more paid astroturfers than real posters. Truly I weep for better days.
Jesus Chr*st that is NOT captialism. MS being an monopoly CANNOT sell it's products for $1 each in order to keep competitors from entering its market. That is illegal plain and simple.
Your vision of what captialism is is whacked. The worst thing that can happen in a capitialist market is one company gaining complete control. Sorry but being a strong advocate of capitialism myself I see this as among the worst things any company could do to maintain a monopoly.
If you wanna get rich, you know that payback is a bitch
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I want to see what happens when the large OEMs demand the same pricing. The pressure for M$ to discount had to be really high, especially for them to offer such a deal to TigerDirect knowing full well that larger customers would squawk.
In ancient times, the OEMs were bullied into doing whatever Redmond said, lest they be cast aside from the DOS/Windows herd. The ultimate effect of this little exercise is to show the OEMs how much power they have. Just start talking about Linux, and wait for the discounts. Wait another 6 months and you might see M$ paying the OEMs to pre-install the product.
You'd lose the case, because about $50 is what MS charges companies like Dell per copy when they buy in bulk. Their lawyers would say that this is the fair value, and the rest is markup for the retail distribution system. Pretty high markup, but hardly unprecedented.
In any case, if Microsoft can be accused of dumping for charging $50 for their software, couldn't a case be made against Red Hat for providing free ISO downloads? Isn't that dumping? It costs more than $0 to provide that service, so they are clearly dumping it.
Maybe they'll subsidize Office XP for OpenOffice buyers? *snicker*
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day, but teach a man to phish...
You assume that the version of XP given away won't overwrite Lindows when you install it. Isn't Lindows just preloaded and they don't give you the CDs to save $$$?
Way to promote proper virus-prevention behavior!
Microsoft's other customers may not take too well to someone else getting a better deal than they do.
This is a step down a steep slope of cheaper software, that MS doesn't really want to go for in the long run.
Agreed -- having submitted over a dozen stories, many of which admittedly turned out to be a dupe, it would be nice to have it either DELETE the freaking things from the profile -- otherwise, its like an albatross around my neck everytime I go in -- perhaps its meant to stop me from submitting, but my percentage accepted is better then 10% :)
Seriously though, either having a REASON why it was rejected, and then recycle the bits, *OR* have an overflow page that just has all the rejections as you've suggested -- that way one might scan the list PRIOR to going through the effort composing a story complete with hyper-link
Old age and treachery almost always overcome youth and skill.
It seems to me, that the target demographic for people buying a lindows computer is not going to be a demographic that would easily cave in (or even care) about XP.
/.
In my eyes, its a repeat of the IE vs Netscape war, although it won't matter as much. Its analogous to offering a discount on windows to everybody here on
Sure, you may sell a few copies, but mostly you'll just get ridiculed.
Online Starcraft RPG? At
Dietary fiber is like asynchronous IO-- Non-blocking!
I'd say about 90% of those pc's will not be powerful enough to even boot XP nor run very fast.. so the users will just switch back to Lindows.
How about crossover office, to allow you to use your Microshaft products on a linux machine? I'm not sure how well it works (oo is fine for me), but perhaps some other /.'ers know a bit better.
90% of office users only use 10% of office features. Unfortunatly its a different 10% for each user.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
"You have obtained your software through fraudulent means"
No, you may have obtained your software in contradiction of the EULA, but EULA's hardly constitute fraud.
You are correct, something like that needs to be on the shelf at retail stores, either from Lindows or any othe other major vendors of hardware or OS software. It's a *good* idea to have bundles that "work" out of the box so joe end user doesn't have to dork around with it. And it needs to be on retail shelves, not "just" mail order.
I'll tell you the one strange one that got me on Linux first install. All through the install the screen was perfect,perfect I tell you, zero wrong with it, THEN it asked to "configure the monitor".
Huh??? what?? It's plugged in, it's working, wazzup with this insanity?? I was stumped, why would it do that if it was already working perfect? So (luckily I have other machines to go online with, lot of people got the one box, that's it) then I had to go find all the specs of this or that, because the *exact* monitor wasn't in the list,the crap on the back was illegible and vague, it honestly didn't mean a lot to me either, so I entered what I thought "might be" correct, never having to do this before,and it slammed the desktop way over in the corner, then had giant fonts from heck and whatnot,not to mention the disco strobe flicker, yeech, and to a raw linux noob, man it was weird. Beyond weird. Took me a long time to fix it too, because it was SO borked you couldn't even see the input boxes to check on, you had to guess. Then the sound didn't work,huh? there's a card in there, been working right along I thinks. I go online, find this sound config, tried that, it still didn't work. Went back, found out (this is days later really) you had to adjust the volume WAY up on the mixer software to "make it work". ((*&$!! It was working, just the volume from default was SO low it didn't matter. That was sure nuts.
Coming from a (almost completely)mac background, I tell you, I came *this close* to not even attempting to use linux at that point. This is only a little more than one year ago, too, BTW. completely spoiled by years of everything *working perfectly well* as soon as it booted up. Upgrading OSs was easy too, never lost hardware compatability or anything of that sort. I was always mystified why I would hear my windows friends even have to have video and audio "cards", I really didn't understand why that was "extra" on a PC initially, I thought that video to a monitor and sound coming out of the machine was just normal common sense, as in "of course it should work right off the bat, duh". heh heh heh, that's what I thought anyway.
Anyway, I have no idea what a "windows only" casual user would have thought of that, but it was real darn close to a "deal breaker" for me. Next was getting the &&**(( modem to work,that was justy WAY too frustrating, then I had the fun of finding out that the default install was insecure as all get out. ((*&^!! Whoops, the too late then syndrome took over, had to re do it, wipe and reinstall. Sheesh. Neither windows nor any linux I ever heard of has the quality of out of the box security that mac classic had. That's just data.
I never had to do anything like that evar, evar, evar since I've been using computers, from the early 90s. Only reason I stuck with it is because I read of the philosophy and goals of linux in general,I totally agree with them, saw that it was still in a serious development stage to get it past unix professionals/gurus CLI only level useage, and really, it was just for fooling around for me at the time, and I have backup boxes that all work.
If someone had really wanted to do something with their computer right that day then, and had 1% less patience, no, I honestly don't think they would have stuck with it, they would have taken it back to the store or their friend or wherever they got it, or let it slide into the trash can, and installed what they were familiar with. Main reason I wandered away from mac was because they switched OSes, completely and totally knocking me out of the market, I couldn't afford-still can't really-any hardware upgrades that will work with OSX adequa
I suppose there must be some type of disclaimed noting that these XP discs are not to be resold? I mean, at $50, you can probably make a profit on ebay if you sell the XP CD and continue using Lindows.
Meanwhilst, and Lindows users who want to sell off their XP CD's cheap? XP is supposedly friendly with my games/hardware, so I wouldn't mind having a copy myself for dual-boot (not a Lindows user though).
Fark.com has something similar to what you propose. If you donate money and subscribe to TotalFark, you can view a list of all stories submitted, regardless of whether or not they make the front page.
/. could do something like this for their subscribers?
Maybe
This is good practice for Microsoft to get into as they prepare to become an open-source software provider.
an idea that i've been interested to see for some time...what if article submission was handled with an algorithm similar to message posts?
there would be hundreds of articles every day. moderators would sort through them. moderators be meta-moderated. viewers would create filters to only display stories above a certain threshold (with perhaps other parameters such as giving preference to certain topics).
administrators just sit back, tweak stuff, and occasionally override the moderators to get out particular articles (eg announcements, interviews) or repress articles (eg pornographic, extremely off topic, promoting illegal activity).
it seems to me that would make everyone happy.
char *mySig;
It's a way for Microsoft to undercut the Open Source groups out there. Whenever an Open Source model can make money Microsoft attempts to grab a hold of it in some way or another. If it means lowering prices it doesn't matter! 50$ is better than 0 to them!
or you can just buy the student copy of Windows XP for 7$
In that case it would be illegal for Linux to give it's product away because by doing that you are keeping competitors from entering the market.
.com giving stuff away. Look how long they lasted.
If microsoft wanted to GIVE it's OS away, why can't it? As consumers, we would make a choice, what is better, Free MS OS or Free Linux Distro? What is GM wanted to give away free cars? Would you take one?
I feel the Slashdot community once again is just "anti-microsoft" and not thinking with their heads.
The concept of preditory pricing needs to go away. If just doesn't make any sense. If the price is too high, new competitors will enter the market forcing the price down. If the price is too low, they will go out of business. Either way the consumer wins. I remember many a
Instead of "Will Microsoft Subsidize WinXP For Lindows Buyers?", shouldn't the story title be:
/.?"
"Is Lindows Trying To Save A Buck On Advertising By Posting This Story On
Oops, the cats out of the bag. Mybad.
SEO Copywriter. Just Say ON
The according to your definition of dumping, then Linux is dumping worse than any competitor, and needs to be stopped. Lobby your congressmen to outlaw free software today.
Windows has near-zero marginal cost. Even at only $50, Microsoft still makes a profit. $50 is a very good deal on Windows, so if that's your goal it's good advice. But buying Windows at $50 to 'screw da man' is silly. It's damn near impossible to sell Windows at a loss. According to this and other stories, windows could be sold at $28 and still not lose MS any money.
"A EULA is not a law. Legislatures make laws, not companies."
Senator meet lobbiest. Lobbiest meet senator.
Both specify "must be purchased with hardware" which is apparently related to the deal they have with Microsoft. This is probably intended to be sold to people building their own computers, as that's the primary business of the referenced site, so Microsoft's 'with hardware' clause may have been intended to mean a processor and motherboard etc... but a $5 cable satisfies the formal requirement.
The $93 price has been pretty constant at that site at least a year, so the $50 price mentioned in the article doesn't seem like the dramatic, unusual thing the article's author claims it is. I suspect the low price for 'purchase with hardware' there is for similar reasons to the Lindows case- people who build their own computers have to actually choose Windows instead of having it preinstalled for them, and there are SuSE and RedHat distributions sold at the same site. In a competitive sales environment, the price of Windows goes down.
XP = Crap;
TigerDirect = Crap;
XP && TigerDirect
= Crap and Crap
= more crap
-- everyones not everybody and neither is everybody like everyone.
Need a refresher course in micro-economics?
The concept of fair competition is for companies to compete on attributes (price, performance, etc.) of the product so that consumers vote with purchases. So underselling your competition is part of the fair competition. It's what drives the perfect market condition to lower prices near cost.
However, MS is not competing on the attributes of the product. They are competing with their size and bankroll. They are competing using fear and relationships. This is not part of fair competition, but rather modern competition. Whether they sell below their cost or not. Whether they are dumping or not. They may not be using draconian license agreements with resellers, but they are using draconian methods to isolate and target LindowsOS with pricing policies. Their rebates are specifically aimed at one company. Their only tangible competitor for a rather in-elastic product. How can you blame them though.
Although such pricing policies may be viewed as normal competition (what else would MS do if you were making its decisions? Sit idle and watch shrinking marketshare?), Most of the Linux defense comes from a deep rooted compassion and benevolence for an underdog. I would admit to it. Who on earth cheers for the bully at the schoolyard (other bullies?)? Don't we measure heros by the weakness of those the hero helps?
"Last one in is a rotten goblin!" - Kepp
I think that any professional company would withheld announcements like that from their website as well as their store.
Being a playground for such undermining marketing from hostile suppliers which products you decided to stock, I don't think any business man would desire.
Looking around on their website, TigerDirect seem to be professional company
You're supposed to BUY WindowsXP?
What are those black helicopters doing thing. they must be looking)(#)$(**$(ATDT LOST CARRIER
Wow, if it's true, we could get a whole new anti-trust suit going.
M$ can not sell their products for "too much", since that is an abuse of their monopoly. And they can not sell them for "too little", since that is also an abuse of their monopoly.
So does their prices have to be set by some government competition commision then? Some capitalism...
Pardon my ignorance here, but if dumping is definied as :
'Export price that is "unfairly low," defined as either below the home market price (normal value) (hence price discrimination) or below cost.'
Then how is freeware and linux not considered dumping as it is 'below home market price'? To argue that point, it seems like one would have to argue that Linux and OSS had no production costs.
How could, say, Microsoft legally compete price-wise, as they couldn't lower their prices below the cost threshhold?
Unless you plan on pirating office, the 50 bucks does NOT give 'Joe User' the ability to open 'coolstuff.ppt'..
True it gets you closer to running office in somewhat stable manner ( its still not perfect.. though more so then wine at this point ).. but it still doesn't solve this mythical users issue..
As a side note, last I checked ( 10 mins ago ) openoffice or koffice still opens PowerPoint files.. and word.. and excel.. so wine doesn't even have to come into play here.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Look at Lindows. Look at the marketing. Read it, understand that it's not about you, it's about Michael Robertson.
Lindows is not cheaper than XP. Lindows, for a one year subscription to "insider" information and "click-n-run" software is $129 per year. XP is $99 for an upgrade - a one time fee no less.
Flame all you like. I guarantee that Lindows is all about Michael Robertson getting richer, not about doing something really good for consumers. Check with Suse or RedHat or other Linux distributors - they're doing a good thing for the consumers. If Lindows would explain to people it's strengths without ever mentioning a competitor by name, that would be fabulous. Why can't the product stand on its own without constant comparisons?
Check out the book Good to Great: Why Some Companies Make the Leap... and Other's Don't and read the section on leaders. There's one type that leaves a healthy company behind, there's another that once they leave, the company becomes unsuccessful due to the wreckage left behind. Where is MP3.com today? Where will Lindows be tomorrow?
is still crap.
The GEEK shall inherit the earth...
I tech-support friend of mine told me that you can't buy XP as a from-the-get-go install; either you get it pre-installed on OEM equipment with a non-installable CD, or you buy an upgrade version if you're using one of the earlier Windowses. Anybody knowledgeable about this?
"How many light bulbs does it take to change a person?" --BMcC-->
Methinks a cable is not a peripheral... The agreement needs tweaking.
My Ass hurts.
are a complete idiot.
It is that simple
I don't know what it is like for other companies, but the store I work for is allowed to sell OEM copies of Windows with any piece of hardware. It must be sold with hardware, but the hardware can be anything, from a can of air, to a bag of screws. Microsoft doesn't care that much if random home users buy an OEM version. They'd rather make the $99 on that then have them pirate it. The $250+ price is an idiot tax. It's not like Microsoft isn't making enough money.
Got Apathy?
I purchased a Wintergreen LindowsOS computer from TigerDirect, and a week or two back I recieved an email pointing me to the "survey." I took it and was then offered a rebate on XP, bringing the cost to around $50.
I remember at the time that it seemed like a Microsoft promoted ploy to get people using LindowsOS to use XP.
Obviously, I saved my $50. =)
Mark F
Hence the ever famous paragon of technical society: "What is Linux?"
Unfortunately, no one can be told what Linux is. You have to see it for yourself.
Actually I think Michael is just blowing hot air. I'm a Lindows user and I for one don't see anything wrong with this. This is legal and far more ethical than may a Microsoft deal. It would be wrong IF, M$ offered TigerDirect lower prices if they agreed to stop carrying Lindows. It would be wrong if M$ blatantly lowered their cost to prevent Lindows sales. But as it is, a person only gets the discount if they are purchasing a LindowsOS pc. Therefore it will not lessen the number of Lindows sales, it should only increase them. You're not in line for the $50 XP if you do not pick up Lindows. So, in many ways M$ is doing what Michael claims that he wants to do, and that is to give consumers a choice. That's how I see it anyway.
It costs Microsoft $15 for each copy of XP. Microsoft has a long way to go before losing any money, and a long way before it violates antitrust laws. I agree with the posters who say that this is just the market at work.
I do wonder who would buy one of those Lindows machines. I guess Microsoft also wants to know. I looked up the specs at Tigerdirect.com and was not too impressed.
Parent post is complete garbage - check the thread:
> > > If you want MSOffice, use OpenOffice
> >
> > OpenOffice can't do this thing I need.
>
> How dare you claim it doesn't work for anyone??
Grandparent post said he would like to use OpenOffice, but it couldn't do what he needed. Same here - I started making a presentation in OpenOffice, but had to switch to PowerPoint to get the job done in some reasonable amount of time.
OpenOffice is great, but I've run into show-stopping problems with both the spreadsheet and presentation parts of it. It does most of what I need and is moving in the right direction, but it's not ready to replace MSOffice for many, many users. Shouting down people who point this out just makes the open source community look immature.
On the other hand... if you buy a piece of OEM software and a piece of hardware, then you could then resell just the software to someone else without the hardware, as you haven't signed any agreement with Microsoft not to, and you certainly own the software product that you've purchased!
Oh no! A monopoly is pricing it's products reasonably! Call out the lawyers!!!!
If you are going to complain about MS lowering the price of windows (Never mind that there have been lawsuits saying that the pricing is too high as it is) Then what do you call Linux giving away a completely functional OS for free? If it is ever shown in a court of law that Linux took market share away from a commercial interest by "dumping", Linux will be the one hurting then.
The STUPIDEST thing a Linux person can possibly complain about is MS lowering prices for Windows.
The moral of the story seems to be if you're a business that wants to get good prices out of Microsoft, play hard to get.
Just curious.. I thought all Linux companies had to make their distro's freely available on the net? If so.. how does one download Lindows for free?
What was your username again? -BOFH
... that Michael Robertson heads up the an Anti-Trust suit against Microsoft within the next 2 years for anti-competitive practices.
This is price dumping to prevent a competitive marketplace, raising the barrier to entry for competitors, pure and simple. If Microsoft keeps this up, the Justice Department is going to actually have to do some real work and actually punish them.
Or not.
"To make a mistake is only human; to persist in a mistake is idiotic." Cicero
Microsoft could give Windows XP away and I still wouldn't use. Garbage is garbage. Windoze is doooomed...
Azurite is fine covellite is mine.
You're absoultely right. It doesn't cost microsoft squat, they aren't losing anything..
The "win-win" was funny ... Dunnow if it was intentional ...
eWeek.
hang brain.
...is that $50 is about the maximum that XP is worth. Why should XP be sold at 4-5 times the price of other software? There's not a lot in it that's worth $200. But when Microsoft offers XP to this group for $50, everyone says "Wow! What a deal!" and jumps on it.
I just don't get it.
You're no bright bulb, pad're. Of course folks buy computers to do things they want to do with computers. Why else would they purchase?? Certainly NOT to stick a thumb up their azzwhole and fsck-around with BASH script ... eh pad're ?
As Rumproast points out, a cable is certainly a computer hardware component, while under some definitions it isn't a peripheral, but under others it is.
Using the first definition, a cable is a "non-peripheral computer hardware component". Even using the second definition, a CPU can be purchased for all of $18...
More to the point, they're a US based company advertising this on the web. I suspect that they might have consulted lawyers about this. Well, either that or they'll be hearing from Microsoft soon...
Through which your usage of the software is determined. A license is an agreement or a contract that can have portions violated and thereby activating other clauses of the license that could make you liable for damages, etc.
Informative? Hardly.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Slashdot is 90% morons and hypocrites
Fuck you mang
If you liked licking my balls, add me to your foes list!
I purchased an IBM Thinkpad with XPHome. Wiped the hard drive and loaded Mandrake9.0. Once I knew everything would run, I loaded Slackware 9.0.
It's fun to have a label on your laptop that says "Designed for Windows®XP" while running Linux on it.
It is easier to build strong children than to repair broken men. -Frederick Douglass
Yes, I accidentally left out the "or," but I did mention that it'd be nice if the agreement were more explicit about what constitutes a non-peripheral hardware component. However, the agreement is very explicit about the bundling requirements for server and application software, and I don't see any way that NewEgg can claim that a cable is a fully assembled computer system. But they do it anyway...
What does you family do for a hobby? Accounting?
In my case, the interchange between me and friends and family so far are:
-Images (normaly jpg format). Tick.
-Text or, shudder, html email messages. Tick.
-Power Point presentations with jokes. Bin it. Tick.
-The ocassional word document from the OU (OO.org opens them all so far). Tick.
-Windows executables with little amusements. Bin it. Tick.
Why should I have what my brother and sister have? Specially knowing it benefits a convicted monopoly abuser?
So I strongly disagree. A home user does not need Windows, he/she can use satisfactorily a Linux or Mac machines for most stuff (Games? Buy a console, or play the Linux ones out there).
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
.... that this is as arcane (I contend it is more ) as the simple command line given by the previous poster?
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
After 9 years of using Linux, the last 4 of them as my only home OS, I have decided to stop kidding myself and start to use Windows again.
I have sinned, I beg for deliverance and forgiveness...
Not.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
The average user undertsands if a computer is different form another. Is all what they need to know.
If you look at the Lindows website, you will see that the only places that they have an agreement with OEMs are in USA, Canada and Israel. :(
When will us Europeans be able to buy cheap PCs? The best value for money PCs here always come with the MS tax.
Yes, I bought Lindows, but have replace it and Win98se with Mandrake9.1 following an upgrade of ram from 64 meg to 192 meg. Mandrake is running stand alone on the Dell PII/300 and is just fine. Lindows now sits in it's wrapper on the shelf along with dinosaur unusable REDHAT 6 and 7.1, SuSE 5.2 and Mandrake 7.0.
Oh, and I did replace RedHat 7.1 with Win2000pro on my custom Duron 900 with 128 ram. This has become my default tool with the Mandrake box being the learning toy.
My wife's ME remains in place. All are on a LAN to run DSL through a Netgear RT314 router/gateway. This setup is very inexpensive (except for 2K) and works to provide very good interent access for the casual user (dinosaur, too) and give him/her a way to keep the old computer in service when he upgrades to a new one. All he/she needs is a NIC card and cord to plug into the Router.
Retired dinosaur, simple user, volunteer, guinea pig
but not spelling.
i purposefully left windows myself - moved onto beos (see username...) so i can't say, without bias, that you are wrong. but dam i hope you are.
albeit the average (maybe even the above average) consumer is an absolute dolt. hands down, no arguing this - people don't WANT to bother 'picking' an operating system, nor a harddrive manufacturer. to most people, that would be analagous to 'choosing' the vendor of the fabric for the interior of their car. "who gives a hoot"!?
despite this obtuse lack of will, these same consumers have to at lesat LOOK at the friggin thing they are about to pay $$ for. if i walk into a car dealership and find a brand new porsche for $5000 you better believe that i'm going to be looking closely at the emblem and make sure it REALLY says what i thought i read.
your 'family member' obviusly didn't even look at the label. the Lindows logo doesn't even resemble microsoft. "windows lindows its all the same thing?!" bullshit - if you don't read the label you aren't even comparing and concluding similarity, you are just assuming that 'everything is microsoft'
and that there is the real problem. just about everything IS microsoft - so it has beoome a 'safe' assumption for people who don't want to be bothered. and breaking this homogenious market into unique segments which can interoperate enough to 'get the job done' is what i see lindows doing. all the other linux's are there if you WANT linux specifically - but we aren't selling to these people at *name your store here*, we're selling computers to the kinds of people who drive 50mph in the fast lane on the highway just so they don't have to look around as they drive. we're selling to people who actually WANT to be numb to the world and all the options out there. we're selling to people who would prefer being dumb enough to never have an opinion.
and thats the world as i see it.
-jared
- im just sick of fixing windows all the time -
If you can run XP on a 1 GHz laptop I think any desktop that could be built out of new parts would be fast enough. And I bet even a 64Mb 400 MHz would /boot/ it for crying out loud.
Right, you can't moderate journal posts.
However, you *can* moderate replies to journal posts which is how the open story queue works at my journal.
--LP