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New Documents Shed Light on Microsoft's Tactics
Tigen writes "As the NY Times reports, even as MS prepares to face penalties from the European Union, testimony during the second week of trial in the consumer class-action lawsuit in Minnesota has revealed some embarrassing internal documents from Microsoft which were not disclosed in the 1997 federal antitrust lawsuit. Items include a 1990 letter from Bill Gates to Andy Grove, and Microsoft's illegal tactics against the Go Corporation, a Silicon Valley startup."
Newsflash! M$ sucks!
Yeah, Microsoft's tactics really suck. I like Fianl Fantasy tactics better. Oh, and FP, propz to all my dead homiez.
"Armed forces abroad are of little value unless there is prudent counsel at home" - Cicero
Trying to intimidate the guy who would kidnap misbehaving Intel employees and keep them locked in his cellar in Oregon for weeks on end?
Microsoft might be bad, but they've never done anything remotely as illegal as that.
I have been pwned because my
propz to gnaa
Or alternatively for those that don't want to register at NYT.
[)amien
It's over. The antitrust trial has gone by. A decision was made and we've stuck to it.
What now? does dragging this stuff up accomplishe anything more? It's just for microsoft bashing.
This whole story should be market -1 FLAMEBAIT
Microsoft has actually been a bad big corp? Tell me it isn't so...
OK it's so, let the "Exchange server ate my email" excuse begin!
This space is not for rent.
The article:f t.html?ex=1080709200&en=81be83eda9c09dad&ei=5062&p artner=GOOGLE
f t.html?ei=5062&en=81be83eda9c09dad&ex=1080709200&p artner=GOOGLE&pagewanted=print&position=&g t;
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/24/technology/24so
and again without ads...
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/24/technology/24so
@ASP.NET's parent-teacher meeting: "Little Johnny.NET is very bright, but he doesn't play well with others."
Sounds eeriely like a movie script minus Erin Brockovich..
I've contended for years that computing in general has been held back by Microsoft, not pushed forward, and this is an example of just how that has been the case.
...
... and most of them do.
There are a lot of 'high order' dreams in the computing science. The CS holy grail of pocket, portable computing is only now coming to fruition (thank you Palm), but has been on the cards since at least the 60's as a design reference/specification. Go could've given us this in the late 1980's, early 90's. Microsofts' machinations, however, prevented that from happening.
I understand now, why the Palm founders adopted their 'found and leave' strategy for PalmOS. In the light of Go, Inc's demise it makes sense to light 4 or 5 small fires that the enemy can't put -all- out, rather than making a very large target, like Go and Motorola did
I stopped using Microsoft products in 1998. They'll not get one penny of $ from this consumer, and not one item of code from this programmer. I tell all my Microsoft-using friends to fuck off with their self-made problems, too, and get real operating systems, from real software companies
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
Consider the author and the source of the article. First, the NYTimes now has a history of embellishing and a keeping lying journalist n the payroll. Second, Markoff is the cat who made up stories about Mitnik breaking into NASA and other cracks and phreaks that Mitnik whole heartedly denies. Plus the jackass sold his soul to a book on Mitnik (a poorly written book at that). Now though many of you hate MS, consider the source to this story and take it with a grain of salt.
parent post is gostse link!
"Hi Tom, I'm reporting live from Redmond WA, and here with me is Paul who works in our favourite software giant's shredding department. So Paul, now that your employment has been terminated, what do you plan on doing?"
"I heard they're hiring in India."
"Well folks, thanks for tuning in. Until next time, I'm Jimbo with your live report.
According to sources, Microsoft still has a 90% marketshare.
Hi there
Back then in June 1990 (as the date of the letter), Microsoft wasn't a monopoly yet, right? So, the anti-trust trial cannot use this as an evidence against them....
I would say that this may lead to anti-competitive lawsuit... (btw, is such lawsuit allowable in the USA?) And of course, as usual, IANAL...
--
Error 500: Internal sig error
from what I can see, MS is trying to make money, while other people try to sue them (again and again). very soon their product need to raise to cover their cost, at the end, the general public will have to pay more for the product. Is it a good thing? we don't know yet... it could cause more diversity on OS when pepole start thinking about other less expensive option. :)
... after all it's a Markoff article.
insecurity asks the wrong question irritation gives the wrong answer
If GO Penpoint software was open-sourced 14 years ago... as an attempt to counter Windows H agression...
I wonder what would the landscape of mobile computing be like today?
Hey, that's my password you are typing
If this is not anti-competitive, then what is?
Microsoft violated a signed secrecy agreement with Go and showed that Microsoft possessed technical documents from Go that it should not have had access to.
Industrial Espionage.
Microsoft violated nondisclosure agreements with Go, and then used that information to build PenWindows, a competitor to Go's PenPoint operating system.
GO has loyalty rights for PenWindows. GO should sue PenWindows licensee's individually. This is what Microsoft is trying to do to Linux users through SCO. GO has more legal grounds to stand on that SCO.
Shortly after the letter was written, Intel reduced its planned investment in Go from $10 million to $2 million
Intel was held to ransom, and they paid it.
The advice read in part that the focus should be shifted from "killing the competitor" to "providing a better solution to the customer's problems."
So they did believe in Killing Competition. A tiger never changes its stripes.
I think some of these allegations could ammount to criminal offences. I do hope Mr. Gates does a time in a cell with No Windows
Moderate this comment
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Nothing to see here
Pretty lousy. GO used "inkblot" style handwriting recognition, and wasn't very good at it.
I was going to point to the Google link of the story, as I'm some people will do.
But also remember the login/pass: slashdot1234/slashdot1234 to quickly log into a slashdot NY Times acct, which beats searching google for the other...
Maybe it's a bit before my time, but does anyone remember anything about PenWindows at all?
Was it renamed Windows CE in a later life?
Or was it just another MS experiment?
Typical slashbot FUD.
Please explain how pocket, portable computing would have been possible even ten years ago. The hardware was the limiting factor. Microsoft had nothing to do with it - the state of the semiconductor industry did. We didn't have CPUs that worked withotu sucking *lots* of juice. NMOS CPUs were very power hungry.
Today we have calculators with 75 MHz processors, powered off AAA batteries. Would that have been possible 10 years ago? perhaps, but the price would have been insane.
Companies are always free to develop their own embedded OS; some do. Back then the hardware wasn't available. So quit the microsoft bashing.
Typical slashdot groupthink
OH THE SHAME I fell off the wagon and use sigs again!
Microsoft would not leak so many embarrassing documents if they never wrote anything down. But, I hear you say, surely people will just record what they say and leak the recordings. Well, not if they conduct all their business in mime. So that is my suggestion. Microsoft should do everything by mime.
-
apt-get install deathstar && deathstar alderaan && echo "You're far too trusting"
Yes this is ONE of microsofts most embarrassing moments however this would also make the list
even includes embarrassing photo.
The plaintiffs contend the new documents show that Microsoft violated nondisclosure agreements with Go, and then used that information to build PenWindows, a competitor to Go's PenPoint operating system. The documents included Microsoft's internal e-mail messages showing that it had detailed knowledge of Go's product plans.
and this:
Shortly after the letter was written, according to Mr. Kaplan, Intel reduced its planned investment in Go from $10 million to $2 million, and stipulated the investment be kept a secret.
and this:
In late 1993, Go was sold to AT&T where it was ultimately merged into the company's portable computer subsidiary. In 1994 the phone company shut down the effort in portable computing. Three months later Microsoft canceled its PenWindows project.
I kind of doubt Markoff did make all this up. Ignore the rest of the article, these facts makes one think, perhaps M$ is targeting all its potential competitors and burying them before any competition actually takes place?
I tell all my Microsoft-using friends to fuck off with their self-made problems, too..
Surely there's a way you can express your displeasure with MS products to your friends with a little more tact?
-- jimmycarter
If this is embarrassing then what does bill gates think of the scene in pirates of silicon valley when he gets high and steals a steamroller.
Finally, someone who isn't a MICRO$OFT SUX0Rz!!! drone.
It is too bad that the Go Penpoint OS never made it. In my opinion it was a very nice system and well designed. The Apple Newton came close, but not quite.
I read the book "The Power of Penpoint"
by Robert Carr, Dan Shafer but never had one of their computers myself (they are pretty rare in Europe). I nearly bought one on ebay recently though.
Some images: http://www.ojisan.com/penpoint/index.shtml
True...I'm a Palm advocate and I had my first handheld back when the first one came out in 1996. It was the PalmPilot Personal/Professional, I believe. But he was close though, saying it was 10 years ago. But I'm sure 1994 they already had some of the ideas and design for a PDA. It's just that the hardware technology hasn't caught up yet.
http://www.palmzone.net
Sir, why do you need to post nine links to your tard website in one post? Is it so that you can get more opportunities to rake in Google ad clicks?
A decision was made, but a lot of people believe that decision was just so much tepid crap. Courts have been overturned in the past; perhaps if enough new evidence comes to light, the case can be reopened.
Yes, it does serve a purpose. It serves to dig up more facts and evidence should someone in the judiciary ever get wise and reevaluate that case.
Even if the trial never reopens, the Court of Public Opinion is always open. The more people learn what kinds of jiggery-pokery Microsoft has been up to, the more likely Microsoft will gets its just desserts sooner or later, and the less likely anyone else will ever pull such stunts again.
Honestly. I'm trying to figure out your attitude. "Microsoft did it, they got away with it, and that's good enough for me!" Are you always this doggedly complacent?
Need something burned down in a big hurry? Then come on down to the Flamebait Market, for all your pyromaniac needs!
You cannot truly appreciate Dilbert until you read it in the original Klingon.
While I don't think anyone will deny Microsoft is guilty of non-competitive behavior, there is certainly some spin on the part of the author regarding this story. The quote doesn't say "this is agressive and we'll come back at ya," but it says, somewhat sensibly, that Intel would weaken the i386 platform by dividing its support between Microsoft and Go. I wouldn't use this as any evidence for non-competitive behavior.
There's plenty of that all over the place, it's just a question of whether 500,000,000 Microsoft users give a damn.
Come up with an argument that Microsoft is holding back the floodgates of technology and then you'll see some grumbling. Replace them with a superior alternative and they will become obsolete by definition.
I don't think Linux is successful because it is technically special. But it is more immune to Microsoft's monopoly powers than closed-source efforts. If Microsoft didn't exist perhaps we'd have many snazzy OS's out there and computers would resemble video game consoles more than computers. If Microsoft didn't snuff out these alternatives we wouldn't care about smelly hippies and free software.
Every time Microsoft goes on about piracy hurting them damaging innovation etc they should be reminded of this that they are IP thieves themselves and if SCO can ask for $1million from IBM then what can the former executives of Go sue Microsoft for? All hypothetical of course the documents have yet to prove this is the case.
Saying Apple is better than MS is like saying Botulism is better than rabies.
Parent says that we could have had PDA's in the 80's - thats more then twenty years ago. HELLO?!?! McFLY?!?! PC's were not that affordable back then - much less low power processers with LCD Screens.
The parent is clearly a fucking inbred retard
The stupid fuckface sayed that things like that could have been around in the eighties.
Actually the newton proves he is wrong. Thank-you
From the article:
A Microsoft spokeswoman said that many of these newly disclosed documents were not relevant to the trial, which focuses on Microsoft pricing actions.
Oh, of course, sorry. Yes, these documents aren't relevant for the current trial, so we should just ignore them completely and pretend they don't exist.
"These are not the documents you are looking for..."
Jedidiah.
Craft Beer Programming T-shirts
but what monopoly? i see macs, i see red hats, i see real players and firebirds they are dominant, but in what way am I even inconvienienced for avoiding ms? not that ms isnt culpible for its crimes, but thanks to creative and intelligent and bored middle class programmers, we finally are able to overcome and avoide monopolies.... or im just a moron
I used to work at a start-up specialising in pen computers in the early '90s (my first job
after leaving university) and PenPoint was actually a pretty good system IIRC.
The primary development language was 'C' with an OO facade used to build the windowing libraries -
rather like GTK in that respect in fact.
There were also tools enabling development in ObjectiveC instead of 'GO' C if you preferred. (though
I think these were from a third party (Slate?))
All in all if my hazy memory serves 10 years later, it was a pretty damn good mobile computing
solution.
In 1991, the hardware for portable computing just wasn't there. It.. just... WASN'T. I mean, where did PenWindows go? Yep, right into the dumpster. If Microsoft had just not done anything, Go would have released their software, gotten a lot of "ooh nifty!" reviews in the trade press, and disappeared without a trace.
If you want the whole story of GO, read Startup: A Silicon Valley Adventure by Jerry Kaplan. It's a great book. And it shows just how evil Microsoft really is!
IF it is true then it just goes once again to show how fucking rotten the legal system is. Tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth eh? So will these be grounds for a new case? Wasn't Martha Stewart found guilty of lying to an officer instead of insider dealing? Can they get MS on withholding evidence? Perhaps even going after people who can be jailed? I personally don't believe for a second that this could be accidental (IF of course it is real)
Some posts seem to mention that attempting to create or abuse a monopoly is a felony. Doesn't this mean that MS is a criminal? So how exactly is it still allowed to do business as usual? Companies seem to want all the perks of being treated a real people but none of the bad stuff like oh say being punished for committing crimes.
Oh well at least we can snigger at all the microsoft apologist trying to wriggle out of this one. This must be one of their worst weeks. Embarrising papers, being fined and if you look at groklaw yet more hypocrasy by claiming that the EU has no right to tell it how to behave while MS itself is asking the EU to tell Lindows how to behave.
I almost pity the MS fans. Almost.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
1. Dominate OS market.
2. Profit.
3. Get fined by EU.
4. ????
"All of Microsoft's conduct was designed to acquire and hang on to their monopoly,'' said Eugene Crew, a lawyer at Townsend, Townsend & Crew, based in San Francisco.
Many companies would desire to maintain a monopoly. The problem here is that after so many years of knowing that Microsoft has this attitude, nobody has done anything effective to stop it.
People can complain about the EU being anti-American in its anti-trust case, but personally I feel that the US should have imposed far more restrictions on Microsoft than it has thus far. Microsoft continually gets away with anti-competitive practices, everybody knows this - although some Microsoft apologists vehemently deny/excuse it.
"Consumers were harmed by being deprived of choice. The greatest harm out of the Go story was the suppression of innovation and new technology by Microsoft."
The extent of consumer harm can't really be known. People seem to be relatively happy with Windows. Then again, people just accepted that computers needed regular rebooting after running Windows 95, it just goes to show how most people just accept things without question. I guess we'll never know how far things could have progressed if it wasn't for Microsoft preventing competition by abusing its position.
Consumers are harmed, so are competing businesses.
Look how things are flying now because Microsoft has a bit of competition from Linux/Open Source. Of course, Microsoft can say, "Hey, we're doing this because we love you all, not because we're scared of Linux", but why does Microsoft care now when it obviously didn't give a damn for years (judging by the poor quality of Windows up until now)? If there's no competition then you work at your own pace, and as long as it appears that there's progress, people seem to be satisfied.
Linux/Open Source/Anti Microsoft News
...can be seen here: Link
The trial exhibits (including the documents mentioned in the NY Times article) are being posted on the court's website.
SO.... for all ye programmers... // what they must have coded //should read
if($partner) $access = 1;
switch($partner){
case 'google':
$access = 1;
break;
case 'slashdot':
$access = 1;
break;
default:
$access = 0;
break;
}
when too much is never enough. lookout bullow.
7 89 64.html
Robert Wexler
Peter King
Dan Burton
Gregory Meeks
Steve Chabot
Joseph Crowley
Jo Ann Davis
Adam Schiff
Mark Green
Chris Bell
http://www.nytimes.com/cnet/CNET_2100-1012_3-51
more LIEk a who's who of who isN'T?
The Whole point of Go was to create the software and hardware together remember that IBM and Intel where involved. Microsoft persuaded Intel to reduce its contribution to the project which they did which killed the hardware side resulting in the failure of the software side. Once this happened neither IBM nor Intel would have wanted to work with Microsoft thus no hardware for PenWindows either.
Back then the hardware wasn't available. So quit the Microsoft bashing.
Again the point was to develop the hardware Microsoft stopped Intel from helping. It would only be Microsoft bashing if it was untrue. Quit the knee jerk response and find the facts.
extra note ran this through the spell checker and PenWindows is in there it even corrected the capitals
Saying Apple is better than MS is like saying Botulism is better than rabies.
Let's see, $613 million to the EU and being forced to make their server APIs open (WOO HOO!), maybe $1.5 billion to Minnesota.
That MCSE of your's is starting to look a bit less useful, eh?
At times I wonder if people have become so desensitized to people in positions of power lying to them that they no longer care. People have to accept wrong behaviour from politicians, businessmen, the media and everybody else. It does not matter if George Bush lies, or Bill Gates bullies his way through or Wall Street analysts pump up a stock - this type of behaviour does not shock or surprise - it is expected of them.
Don't like it, but they did.
By the time Linux is a threat to the MS juggernaut Microsoft will have fixed the numerous problems in their products - so why bother?
By submitting willingly I hope to be higher in the hivemind than you.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
I just read pengwindows. Now there's a nice tux reference for you...
Let's just call the next OS windows manager penguindows.
At least they can't call out for a copyrighted 'windows' in there.
(or really call it PenGwindows, where G stands for Gnu?)
anyway. useless brainbabble.
Their innovation continues to exist in Symbian Devices.
:)
I own a SonyEricsson P800 UIQ based Mobile Phone. Based on the Symbian 7.0 platform, you can still see the Psion/Epoc influence underneath.
The result, a sold stable computing platform, which arguebly crashes FAR less than equivelent MS Smartphones. (this is from personal experience amongst me and my collegues)
A MultiTasking/Multithreading operating system that is easy enough to use (MAC/Palm style), yet DOES allow you access the filesystem (C drive, ddrive, etc), and other system details via freely downloadable software shoudl you wish to tinker.
Its Handwritign recognition is exemplar, and far better and more "user friendly" than Palm's old Graffiti system which was very good for what it was.
I use it as an Ogg player (who needs an MP3 player, its sound quality is excellent), a PDA (it synchs with Outlook contacts/mail/tasks/diary/notes, and has dynamic contact spaces (it dynamically adds new fields even when they are not provided in the main set of fields, try that with palm its its infuriating 5 max fields for numbers/fax/email/web and one address field)
For those not wishing to submit to Outlook, it also has excellent vCard and SyncML support. You can back up the contacts by selecting "send all" and pointign the Infrared or bluetooth at any computer (Win/Mac/Linux) and selecting send. it will create a standard vCard file with all contact details stored in it. and to send it back to the phone, just send the single file. Even outlook on the PC cannot handle a vCard with numerous contacts so simply and elegantly, heaven help Mobile Outlook users!
it is simply the best PDA i have ever had, and does follow to some extent Jerry Kaplan's original vision...
Oh and i forgot to mention, its a damn good phone too!
Have a nice day!
I just don't see how we can have a discussion.
I mean just because Intel became what it is today in large part through the success of Operation Crush which was intended to steal 5000 Motorola customers, where do you get the idea, they wouldn't be happy to help fund their business ventures or even that they might be competitors.
Microsoft is evil. Look around, everyone in this essentially cloistered community thinks so, except for the dissenters who no one takes seriously. Just because the EU has used specious arguments to sue and obtain technology in the past in no way should suggest that this is what they are doing now. Microsoft only offered to include 3 rival media players with every copy of windows. Everyone knows if they were really serious, they'd have offered 5.
They repackaged Mosaic, until mosaic began to outpace them because they spent too much time tracking their stock options and fiddeling with their new top of the line office chairs. Mosaic was actually the best browser until the project came to an end, by which time Microsoft had caught up to and surpassed Netscape. Which died the ignoble death it deserved. Small wonder Andressen's new venture it talking other companies into paying him to help them outsource.
Netscape died because they started counting their stock options before they'd won the war and entrenched themselves. They weren't even competitive with the project that spawned them, and was still free. Small wonder they couldn't get everyone to buy their garbage.
And Real, they're damn lucky to have survived their most recent giant PR gaffe. Hell, look at their site today, they still seek to mislead their customers. Who would want to do business with asshats like them?
Look at google for comparison. They've won. They are a fucking verb! And are they content to rest on their considerable accomplishments, while companies with billions in cash look to enter their industry where there is a low to virtually no barrier to entry? No, they still churn out clever new tools frequently. Netscape died for want of a brain, Real may well for lack of a heart. Microsoft might have been, and soon will be the wolf feasting on their carcasses, but rest assured their respective congenital defects are what struck the killing blow.
In both the US Fed. and EC cases the fine/penalty/remedy is not really the big economic point.
Once a company has a gulty verdict against it in a federal anti-trust case the door is open for all kinds of civil cases.
Realistically, materially punitive federal judgements would hardly fly even in the EC, let alone the US (where an amazing majority of people actually like the applications that MS produces and a highly vocal segment figure if they're so successful they must be 'good' both technically and in customer service).
So really this kind of suit could sink MS, and in fairness to the feds (even the shamefully inept way the Bush administration runs the show) There is a case to be made that letting the market take care of itself is more efficient in the long run.
As the 'market' has access to the courts MS can look forward to more of these.
Coupled with the likelihood that more and more of their products will become materially irrelevant due to opensourcing of better alternatives I think MS's future isn't as gold plated as it surely looked before the whole anti-trust thing started.
Linux is Linux, if One need clarify their dist: <Dist>/GNU Linux
bsds are of course just BSD
this is business 101 and it is revered in the corporate world.
there are no morals in the corporate world it is just me, myself, and I.
Microsoft sucks and I will never buy another one of their products again (windows nt was the last one I bought). I am forced to use it at work but yet I risk my job by putting linux on my laptop. I just can't go into a place everyday and use microsoft. It just sucks. Use to be an mcse also but I am not taking four tests just to renew my certification. I'll go get a unix one if I have to do that - it would also be more respected by my peers than a mcse.
fsck off Microsoft and SCO.
apple newton would have fit the bill ten years ago (or so). And by 98 it was 162 mhz speed. Too bad it was dropped.....
zogger
after many cases and revealations like these. how could you? how could any reasonable person not feel that they were and are getting the short end of the stick becuase of M$ business practices?
linux, BSD, or any other OSS/FS is not your only choice if u don't want to mess with M$. You have Apple and some others. but people who have a love for M$ should really look at why the like them, what they have been doing to the industry, and whether or not M$ business practices benefits you and your friends in the long term.
i know, that seem like just too much for really busy people to think about. but like politics, it may not be fun, but ignoring it will get you and idiot for a leader. as for M$, it will limit your choice if they get thier way, u probably won't have Linux, BSD, Apple, BeOS (which kind of don't exist thanks to them), etc.
Other companies actually make software that can compete with microsoft's flagship (windows)
Too bad they dont, instead they make software that only geeks want to/could/would use.
built on fraud and deceit, just like most corporations except you dont goto prison if you wear a suit
"Also, Microsoft research has contributed quite a lot to scientific community..."
Please be more specific here! Or are you just being sarcastic?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Found this old cache in Google on the perception of Penpoint in 1991..
Quote: PenPoint emphasizes handwriting recognition, and GO has designed PenPoint from the ground up to support 32-bit memory and preemptive multitasking.
c'est la vie
They would probably use the sign language, then create proprietary (read ununderstandable or usually used to say something else) extensions to it, then try to force all deaf persons to stop using it with fud and other bullying tactics, or to buy a microsoft Hand(TM) license to have the right to use it.
Of course, watching anyone using it or merely waving your hand without a licence would soon be illegal, since a patent is on its way:
"a method to communicate by signs in order to, eh!, say something, without actually, uh!, say something".
Yes, there *were* processors of a suitable kind ten years ago. Take the various ARM processors as an example.
And even then, there's lots of other processors from around that time that would have given sufficent processing power _and_ the needed power-efficiency.
Just because most machines contain baroque tech from the 60s (the x86 series), doesn't mean everything works so badly.
I don't like trolls and mod against me if you like, but I'd prefer if you'd reply.
Who needs the ARM6? Even the ARM2, ARM250, and ARM3 would have been more than sufficient.
If I remember correctly, Acorn built a Tablet PC in the early 90s running RISC OS, and powered by the ARM. It was damned good (saw a demo), but, as with so many Acorn-related things (ARM being the exception that proves the rule), they didn't have the capital investment to mass produce it.
Oh well, there's always Psion...
I don't like trolls and mod against me if you like, but I'd prefer if you'd reply.
most ordinary users think, that it's perfectly normal, that your computer crashes few times a day. they just let it go as "well, that happens" not knowing, not expecting and not caring for any particular reason.
this only single fact gives "excuse" for millions of lines poorly written code, (who cares, it happens anyway) and keeps thousands of "hacky" programs and viruses alive, while most of those crashes may be their "natural" side-effect, not nessecerily something, that would "normally" happen with healthy system..
Microsoft has already paid $1.6 billion in its efforts to settle consumer antitrust claims filed in 10 states
Paid $1.6 billion? In cash? Somehow this doesn't ring true to me.
Didn't Microsoft "pay" for their sins in credits for Microsoft software? Anyone know for sure?
Ruby on Rails Screencast
There are two ways to view mircosoft. There is the traditinal Slashdot Micro$oft is evil and sucks opinion, and my view that Microsoft is evil and is really cool. Think about it. The mobsters in The Godfather movies, and the Sopranos are evil, but they don't suck. Admit it, you Love playing GTA Vice City. Its not always easy being so evil. You have to admit Microsoft does a very good job ( at being very evil) and in my book that makes them the coolest company in the world.
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
The thing MS is worried about now is that this is setting the stage for massive suits against them. It is going to be death by a thousand cuts.
Oh yea and all you windows loving trolls remember this site is called slashdot not c colon backslash.
Got Code?
believe piracy is wrong and anti-american. We also view giving source away as evil and counter to the american capitalist ways. After all, our founder Bill Gates has been preaching this message since the very beginning of Microsoft. If we happen to accidentally plagerize software for Visual Basic from the original inventors, or technology from Apple or Go, it was purely accidental. We are sorry it happened, but honestly, a mistake is a mistake. We can't be held to different standard of conduct. If that happened, corporate american would collapse and every time a mistake was made, the company would have to take a huge loss. Should a company like goodyear produce faulty tires and cause a few minor accidents, they shouldn't be required by law to replace the defective tires for free. That would be insane and cost goodyear millions of dollars. We love capitalism and work aggressively with government officials to preserve the capitalist system.
... the mimes escape?
Oh, right.. they wouldn't be able to tell anyone. It'd be like a really deranged version of Microsoft Charades (tm).
for removing the shameless hype about Go Corp from the IT press.
During a few months you couldn't open a computer magazine without Go Corp being hyped in every article.
Every article during that time had Go Corp hyped in every paragraph.
I got so fed up of reading about Go Corp in every paragraph in every article in every computer magazine that I cancelled a few subscriptions.
Then good enough access to the internet came along, and I didn't need those subscriptions anymore, and Go Corp was but a vague memory.
Can we stop bringing up daemons from the past, and leave Go Corp for once and for all behind us ?
Flourescent (adj): smelling like ground wheat.
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
Many companies would desire to maintain a monopoly.
All companies would, because all people would like to have a job in which a) they can never be fired, b) they can change the price of their sold goods/services with impunity, c) customer opinion is irrelevent, and d) the wealth you make is limited merely by your sense of pity.
And we need the government to protect us from people like this, right? Well, guess again! The government supports people like this in many, many ways!
Case in point: I am in the process of opening a restaurant in Georgia. (This process has earned me a fresh, new hatred for all things government as they are rackets that "skim off the top" of the efforts of people who are believed to have money, and I dare anyone to point out to me the "government services" that these looting taxes are allegedly providing me.) If you want to buy Budweiser in Georgia (for resale, that is), then you will buy it from one distributor. Every institution in Georgia that sells Budweiser to consumers has bought that beer from one distributor. Just take a guess at what his margins are.
Oh, why can't we buy from another? Because the law forces us to buy Budweiser from one distributor. That's right, the law. The alleged arbiter of fairness and justice.
The reason that the law can exist in this state is because I live in a state that is replete with conservative Christians who believe (or pretend) that alcohol is "sinful" and thus those who trade in it deserve to be persecuted by the state.
I don't make the rules. I just make fun of them.
These things ran DOS and were actually quite sturdy. I developed some very nice CLIPPER apps (a dBase descendant) for these for use in manufacturing environments. They were quite nice. The batteries really did last a week under heavy use, or two weeks under light use. I wish I still had one.
See my blog at Who's Who
AmiPro was the best WYSIWYG word processor there will ever be, at least it was when Samna owned it, by the time Lotus bought it, 'updated' it to look like other Lotus apps, and crammed it into their 'office suite', it was well and truly lobotomised.
So I agree, AmiPro as it appeared in Lotus SmartSuite was crap, but it wasn't that AmiPro started out that way, it was the morons at Lotus that turned it into crap.
I'm sure that same was true of Word before microsoft got their grubby little hands on it.
Microsoft is a classic example of this. One would be pressed to think of a single innovation from Redmond.
"First you get the Linux, then you get the power, THEN you get the women"
if there weren't people looking for it. It would have remained the realm of academia, research papers in shitty fonts on plain gray backgrounds. Content appearing on the web went hand in hand with people on the web looking for content. What kind of mental deficient puts up a billboard (or builds a library) on a country trail in the middle of nowhere where 6 cars a day pass by?
mithuro, what's dat all about? is it good, or is it whack?
it's WHACK!
Court system administrator Melvin Plunk stated, "I was just walking through the computer room at 5 in the morning, and the IIS server just burst into flames. I think it was those Al-Slashdot terrorists."
The blaze had almost extinguished itself, by the time the local fire companies had responded. Experts attribute this to the posting of a Natilie Portman article on Slashdot at that time.
The Greek Empire started deteriorating when the gods became fallible and human, and the people had nothing to aspire toward.
I'm curious as to this Greek Empire of which you speak - the only Greek Empire I can think of was that forged by Alexander, and that fragmented due chiefly (and shortly after) to the death of Alexander himself, lasting barely a decade or two as an empire. Do you mean the Byzantine Empire - which was of course Roman in origin, rather than Greek?
-Chris
1. Having the power to fix prices.
2. Having the power to exclude competition.
For once, the legal definition is better than the ones you find in the dictionary. It focuses right on the essance of what a monopoly is. Market share doesn't define a monopoly, but being able to exclude competition or fix prices does. That's the control that matters, that's the kind of dominance that's at issue.
A company can have 100% of the market, but if they can't fix prices or exclude competition, then they don't have a monopoly. If they can fix prices or exclude competition then they have a monopoly even if they don't have anywhere near 100% market share.
Clear Channel has been doing this kind of crap and worse to their competition for years. Oddly enough, nobody ever seems to go after them. Think radio sucks nowadays? It does, and you can blame it on the ugly monopoly that has gone pretty much unchecked in that industry.
It served 80 concurrent users quiet nicely and probably had the processing power, which would put a Gameboy to shame nowadays.
No snazzy videos, no doom and no music playback, though, but a development environment, which was a true pleasure to work with.
ich bin der musikant
mit taschenrechner in der hand
kraftwerk
that's really interesting; how did people know you were a troll? they must have followed the link expecting goatse.cx stuff
GrimRC
And if that/NYT Al-Quaeda partner link gets as much traffic as I expect, everyone who reads Slashdot will be on a Department of Justice suspected terrorist list.
Notify your family that you will soon be arrested and held incommunicado for a few months or years.
Assembly is the reverse of disassembly.
big debate
GrimRC
Two years later, Marlin Eller, a former Microsoft programmer who was part of the PenWindows project, wrote in "Barbarians Led by Bill Gates" (Owl Books) that the intent of the PenWindows project had been primarily to undermine Go.
In the same book he describes how they put together a presentation for their PenWindows for a computer fair (Comdex?) to show that they could do the same stuff as Go. When in fact they had absolutely nothing. It was all smoke and mirrors.
I always remember that story when watching another cool Longhorn presentation. And I wish others would too, especially journalists ...
His joke was funny, your reply was not, Mr. 700,000+ UID fuckstick.
At least he has a UIC, AC.
that Win95 OSR2 put a web browser into the hands of the masses with every computer they bought. It drove the demand for content.
I wish I still had points to give ya.
Companies compete aggresively to squish their competitors, anybody surprised? (not me)
Monopoly control laws try to prevent abuse when a company is too large. Before that, aggressive competition is more or less regular business.
1990 is the time of DOS 4 and the launching of Windows 3.0. There was a considerable variety of machines and operating systems (Macs, Amigas, DR-DOS, IBM's "home-remade" PC-DOS4, Coherent, etc). Microsoft was large but I honestly don't think that they were a monopoly back then.
Shouldn't that be incriminating? It isn't like forgetting someones name or something. This is serious and shouldn't be taken so lightly.
After reading this debate all I have to say is: prepare to live the rest of your lives as virgins.
and Microsoft's illegal tactics against the Go Corporation
Bill: Go stop Go
Lackie: What?
Bill: Stop the Go company
Lackie: Oh, go and stop a company, but which one?
Bill: THE Go company
Lackie: Oh! Go!
Bill: Yeah, now go!
Lackie: You mean they renamed it from something else?
Bill: No, I mean you. You go.
Lackie: Okay, I'll go and stop Go
Bill: Stop it!
Lackie: Yeah, stop Go.
Bill: No, I mean stop repeating me.
Lackie: Maybe I should go.
Bill: Okay, but don't forget to stop Go.
Lackie: Got it! I will stop It.
Bill: It's Go, not it.
Lackie: Me or the company?
Bill: Nevermind, I'll do it myself, now GET THE HELL OUT!
Table-ized A.I.
Yes, this is business. Not to be confused with highway robbery.
Business: Microsoft was supposed to build their own competing product, follow all legal and ethical guidelines, and fairly compete with Go. Hopefully if they both have good business plans and a good product, they both make a profit. The good natured rivalry between the two causes each to put for their best effort to make their product better. Their customers have a choice of who to give their money to, and high quality products from which to choose from. Everyone benefits.
Highway-robbery: Microsoft violated a non-disclosure agreement (a contract). They took Go's technology and used it to compete with Go. They used their monopoly and bullying tactics to try to frighten investors away from Go. Regardless of the fate of the Newton, this was breach of contract, and potentially a violation of antitrust laws (IANAL). In short, Microsoft's actions were unethical, and possibly illegal.
Btw, Apple canceled the Newton in order to streamline their product line so they could concentrate on OS X (and staying afloat). The Newton still has users today.
"At this moment, it has control of systems all over the world.
And...we can't do a damn thing to stop it."
Miyasaka, "Godzilla 2000 Millennium" (Japanese version)
Regardless of some execs in microsoft and their motives or what they think their motives are, MS has done alot for this industry and will continue to catapult this industry forward. I run W2k, WXP, W98 and 2 Solaris boxes at home and I normally will only ever use XP. Its is crafted for usuability and expedites my tasks.
.Net and other technologies will do the same for the computing industry.
I always equate it this way... Just as the standardization of screws and bolts led to great strides in automobiles and the entire industrial industry, Microsoft's
Splitting our top talent in this country into two camps that support either unix or microsoft leads to a competitive environment but alot of redundant code. (And a lot of, Hey lets port this, and this and this... Which is ultimately busy work)
Most Minnesotans (the ones who think for themselves, anyway) pretty much think like this. If Bill wants to argue, I'll slap him with a rather large muskie/walleye/northern.
When you look at the state of the world, how can you not become a radical, liberal anarchist?
Strange. I would think that given your userid -- Amiga Lover -- you would want to know everything about Microsoft's criminal activities, past and present.
Has it never occurred to you how much of a threat the Amiga was to Microsoft?
Have you not thought that when Microsoft made deals to block DR-DOS and OS/2 out of the retail channels, Microsoft may have done the same to the Amiga, thus causing a sudden reduction in Commodore's revenue, and contributing to its bankruptcy?
I think it's important to remind people that Microsoft is a criminal, and that it will be extremely harmful if a criminal like Microsoft is allowed to control Internet and multimedia protocols.
I suggest the following remedy for *any* company holding a monopoly in a market segment.
Take its market share in the market segment and subtract 50%. The number you get is the additional taxation imposed on the earnings of the company.
I the case of microsoft having, say 90% market share in the pc operating system market, this would impose them a hefty 40% extra taxation on their earnings.
I've yet to see my Windows XP box crash ONCE or catch any virus, or cause me any other headache. Yes, Win 9x and SE were crap, but let's give the credit where it's due - W2K and WXP are solid, robust products that just let me do my job and don't get in the way much.
Look I was all impressed with Microsoft's XP Tablet Edition when it came out recently until I one day came across the IBM ThinkPad 360P, 360PE and 750P laptops.
...the systems even seem to have support for pressure sensitivity but apparently that was never added into the full driver support because sometime around when Microsoft "decided" that pen computing was dead, everyone inlcluding IBM quit developing the format. It just makes me see red to think that this technology had to sit and stagnate for 10 years until Microsoft got off their ass and decided that *THEY* should be working on it again... and they shut down everyone else in the meantime. Man, I am so sick of this crap.
Holy shit these were 486SX and 468DX touchscreen systems where the screen flipped over on top of the keyboard making the laptop a thick tablet computer.
Running OS/2 Warp 4 with full pen functionality enabled, these systems are absolutely amazing. I never use the keyboard, even from a DOS window as the handwriting recognition is pretty darn good all across the OS (even with Win-OS/2 aps, etc...).
Why did I stop moderating? Why did I do that?
Because I *simply* had to respond to this.
If I had to bet on it, I would wager that 90% of the devoted Microsoft bashers that infest Slashdot are either devout liberals or aspiring socialists.
Not this particular M$ basher.
Actually, I'm mostly a Libertarian. I am a fiscal conservative but a social liberal. I wish to see as little government meddling in free enterprise as possible, because it almost always backfires. As an example, I'm quite convinced that the government Corporate Average Fuel Economy regulations which killed the full-size station wagon are, in fact, the very reason why we now have full-size station wagons built on even thirstier (CAFE-exempt) 4x4 pickup truck chassis choking our streets.
But I make an exception for Microsoft. Without government intervention, there'd be nothing to stop monopolistic behaviors. Linux is an aberration unique to computers: if one car company had more than 97% of the market and was abusing its monopoly, there wouldn't be open-source cars because the product is not intangible and easily duplicated. Normally, the free market will work things out on its own. But Microsoft lucked its way into a position of power initially, and has ruthlessly used that power to squash anything which could become a threat.
Micrsoft, it seems, has become a symbol for "corporate greed", "bullying", etc, etc and bashing it serves as a substitute for bashing capitalism - the real target of their enmity.
Microsoft is a symbol for corporate greed and bullying. If they're not, I can't imagine what they'd have to do to get that name. Maybe Bill and Paul would be abducting competitors' children in a non-descript white van.
As for capitalism, yeah, it sucks. Some people starve while others get rich. But it's also a lot better than anything else anyone has come up with. I do hate capitalism. But I hate socialism and communism even more.
Indeed, bashing capitalism is considerably less "fashionable" than bashing MS (or Wal-Mart, or any other large and successful company), so why not use MS as a proxy?
I love Wal*Mart. Usually, after I've been shopping there, I compare prices with their competition (key point, that) and determine that I've saved a couple of bucks with each shopping trip. Case in point: was going to buy a small level, checked out Home Depot. Found a level that I liked for $19.95, which seemed a little steep. Went to Wal*Mart, found exactly the same make and model of level for $4.99. I do not begrudge Wal*Mart their success, because unlike Microsoft, it seems they've actually done something to achieve it. The very first thing Wal*Mart has done is somehow create a discount department store that I'm not embarrassed to go into. The next thing is almost always having what you want in stock, and usually at the same price or a little better than the competition.
So, all you MS bashers out there, why not just admit that you are, at the very least, liberal Democrats and voting for Bush would be as inimical to your creed as using Windows?
A vote for Bush is evil, pure and simple.
Al Gore was no better. His liberal fiscal policies would have punished me for my financial success rather than enticing me to expand my business and hire more employees. His pro-union stance drives up the cost of labor artificially to a point where a person who makes brake pistons all day gets $25/hr while a McDonalds employee whose job requires far more intelligence and skill gets minimum wage. But, on the other hand, at least Gore was intelligent and secure enough with his masculinity to know that gay people aren't going to hurt him.
Furthermore, why not just say that capitali
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
Well, I don't think it would've been as big as Linux. Mainly because 14 years ago, barely anyone had net access.
Remember when people asked Microsoft why they had $50 billion of cash reserves? One of the reasons that they gave was to pay off lawsuits. They aren't afraid of paying off lawsuits. They have already budgeted for it. They are afraid of being forced to change their business practices as a result and of losing their effective monopoly on desktop computing.
Microsoft doesn't care about the money that much. Even if they paid both fines (EU and Minnesota) in the same quarter, it would only take them from ridiculously profitable to break even point *for that quarter* (even if the Minnesota fine is the full $1.5 billion). Their big worry is that they might lose the ability to make $2 billion profits in a quarter. In that respect, the EU case is far more dangerous than the Minnesota case. The EU case involves actual changes in business practices (Media Player bundling and secret APIs). The Minnesota case is just money. They'll probably just have to pay in software vouchers again anyway.
Where do I start?
DR-DOS did a lot of things right that MS-DOS didn't. All of their command options were consistent in a way that MS-DOS only dreamed about. The help messages were actually informative.
The diskcopy program could use a file as a source or target. Single-disk copies actually used all available memory instead of a fixed chunk and force the user to swap. All of the command-line utilties could draw on all of available memory (not just the first 640kB) at will. FIND was actually useful (not by any stretch of the imagination a grep clone, but still way more useful than MS-DOS's FIND). You could do useful things with disk labels. XCOPY (remember that?) had twice as many options. The batch language, while still .BAT compatible, was streets ahead. The multi-user (TaskMax) and printing stuff worked more smoothly and reliably. If you installed Windows 3.11 under MS-DOS then overwrote it with DR-DOS everything sped up and it crashed less often. Most of the command would recurse. A real disk cache. A CURSOR program to do cursesy things from batches. Twice the debugger (SID). Undelete (DELWATCH). A better editor (certainly crapped all over EDLIN, anyway). A laplinky thingy (FILELINK). Semi-serious disk fiddling (mirroring etc): DISKMAP. A directory renamer. A SORT that was actually useful. A clever extended deleter (much more useful than DELTREE) called XDEL. And so on...
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Just curious why.
Crappy software is the reason for this, not bad users.
If a computer gives the user a way to destroy there computer, or get virus, through an easy, friendly means that looks like it's what your suppoe to do, it is the softwares fault, not the user.
If you put a button on a blender that started flashing and said 'push me' and when someone did, it exploded into a thousand pieces, it is NOT the users fault, it is the products fault.
I am convinced that if there where real competition in the GUI level, we could all open any attachment without worry, because they would open in there own sandbox, and be unable to effect any other program or file on the system.
People want the convience of opening an attachment without jumping through hoops, and they should be able to do so. Microsoft gave them that, but didn't bother to build any safty features.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Speaking of the Newton: Did Microsoft's monopolistic policies actually hurt our national security? Are there Al-Qaeda / Redmond links? Did Microsoft weaken our anti-terrorist defenses enough to allow 9/11?
Ummm... prob'ly not. But if the idea of a bunch of grunts with Newtons intrigues you, you might find these interesting:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/hunter- warrior.htm
This one's PDF, takes a while to load:www.cadrc.calpoly.edu/pdf/feat4_brochure.pdf
The Dalai Llama
I got your Sea Dragon right here...
My sig could be your sig!
Huh?!?!?!
Ok, first of all, the documents would be copyrighted under the Berne convention. Secondly, if Microsoft actually paid someone to steal them, that's corporate espionage. Thirdly, if they violated their contract with Go on this, then the former shareholders certainly could sue. Fourthly, considering where Microsoft stands in the marketplace, violating their contract like that does count as anti-competitive behaviour worthy of anti-trust investigation. Fifthly, Public Defenders defend the accused, not the accuser. Sixthly, just because the crime finished off the victim does not stop it from being a crime. You will note that prosecutors still prosecute assault cases when the victim of the assault dies as a result, they just change the charge to murder.
Honestly, I don't want to descend to aspersions on your character, but you already did it to another poster. So, I have to say that, based on the things you've written in this thread you appear to be the worst kind of pragmatist.
there is nothing wrong with a Monopoly, Only how you wield it.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Well, we saw how long that corporate strategy lasted...
Xenon, where's my money? -Borno
10 years ago I had an Amstrad PC with Dos and GEM as a GUI...
now I've got WinXP...but I don't remember GEM ever asking me every 5 minutes if I wanted to send an error report...
Sometimes I wonder...did we ever innovate, or did we just move to one provider.
Which leads us to another question...if a word is not recognized by Microsoft's spellchecker, is it really a word?Have you looked to see if monopoly is a word in the Microsoft spell check lately?
Did anyone just hear that tree fall in the forest?Reading all the image files it just makes it totally clear that the US was bought and sold in the original trial.
People who voted for Murray, a sock puppet for washington state, should feel so proud.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
You can easily get all the scanned documents. Site is even very fast. Just go one dir up on the link and you will find a simple dir listing. Download, make sure you rememeber to tell wget not to travel up and read and be horrified.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
My opinion:
DOS killed the competitors because Microsoft allowed illegal copies of DOS to be sold and circulated. Back then, it was DOS for a considerable payment, or DOS for free.
At that time, there were at least 6 computer distributors in the Portland, Oregon area that were selling illegal copies of DOS.
All governments are untrustworthy.
"I'm just here to regulate funkiness."
Around the same time I remember working on many a NeXT. Couldn't justify the price (ie: afford one). Fortunately today I can afford a Mac. OS.X, well, smokes anything I've ever seen Windows able to do (and all at the *same time* mind you :).
Of course having a couple of computing degrees and starting out on AT&T SysVr4 I know not what I am speaking about when I say, "Windows? Mickey-mouse platform."
This is ridiculous. Nobody held a gun to people's heads and forced them not to make their own ventures into personal computing. Nobody held a gun to Netscape's head when they put out crap browsers that allowed IE to take over.
I'm sick of this victimhood mentality. "Microsoft is a monopoly, therefore nobody is allowed to attempt anything!!" Uh, yes they are, and if their product is better, people will switch.
Underloved Movies and Pub Quiz: donotquestionme.org
" by selecting "send all" and pointign the Infrared or bluetooth at any computer (Win/Mac/Linux) and selecting send"
Yeah, smartguy, select anything you want and point your infrared at MY computer! I don't have an IR port!
HA HA! Your Dawson's Creek Trapper Keeper won't assimilate ME! BILL COSBY has protected us!
--I'm a conservative, probably closest in todays terms to what is called a paleo-conservative as opposed to the socialist/globalist techno-feudalist neoconservatives, which is the top leadership of the R party. And newsflash, the US has been a socialist nation by DEED since FDRs time, and heavily. A military/industrial autocracy, which throws slops at the rest of the people in a socialist manner using phony money and promises.
With that said, I would NEVER vote for that lying scumbag, and I didn't last time. Last several elections I vote constitutional party, reform or libertarian. To me, the RNC and the DNC both need to be grand jury investigated under RICO at a minimum. You could spend days listing crimes committed by both those political gangs (and their lobbyists/bribers/blackmailers).
Microsoft doesn't engage in capitalism, they are CROOKS and engage in greedism. There's a big difference there.
zogger
You mean Clinton right? No, I guess you mean our current president, Bush. So, exactly, what has the "scumbag" lied about anyway? Do you have any evidence to substantiate your assertion?
not long after Go went under I was part of a startup that moved into their old premises .... embedded in the ceiling tiles above my new desk were about 40 pencils .... all I could imagine was some sad engineer left in the dieing remains of the company throwing them up and not really caring where they fell back down ...
Here's a wacky idea. Take the precedents that have established the "personification" of corporations in American law (that is to say, that have defended the rights of corporations to any protections extended to individuals under the law) and apply them to situations like this. When a person takes actions intended to result in the dissolution of another person, the word we use is murder. In this case, there is documentation to prove that the actions taken were premeditated. Should Microsoft be brought to trial for murder one in the death of corporations? As persons under the law, do corporations like Go have this right?
While we're on the subject, can corporations get married as an alternative to mergers?
me: So, are you a lawyer?
Speare: No... but i did stay in a holiday inn express last night.
Case in point: was going to buy a small level, checked out Home Depot. Found a level that I liked for $19.95, which seemed a little steep. Went to Wal*Mart, found exactly the same make and model of level for $4.99.
:) That's one of the reasons many dedicated hardware stores have higher prices (yes, I'm aware of exceptions)
Great post, but I have to comment here, being in the DIY biz;
Walmart has great prices on a lot of stuff, but just try finding an employee who not only knows how to *use* that level/tool but can teach you some of the finer points WRT to how you're going to use it
Great post in any case BBM
SB (not card carrying but libertarian nevertheless )
It's old. The more humans I meet, the more I like my cats. At least they are honest.
I'll just add my post to this thread, since it is a pretty interesting thread. The best thing microsoft has brought forth in my opinion is compatiblity. If everybody on this planet uses microsoft windows and microsoft word and microsoft internet explorer etc then people can easily exchange each other's documents and talk about it. Let's imagine a world without microsoft. How would that world look like ? Well take the linux world for example. That is a world I hate ! Truely. How many linux distrobutions are there ? How many linux gui's are there ? I as a programmer say: "NO" to that. If I as a programmar say: "NO" to that, just Imagine how every day users will say: "HELL NO" to that. Computer Life would become very difficult. Now how could somebody post a reply to this: I would expect replies to say: Well that can be solved with open standards. That's true... open standards are good in this view... like the internet, like xml, etc, etc. That's good. Still the operating systems are different, the gui's are different, the hardware is different, everything that makes open standards work is different. Having a layer on top of that that makes it all the same is good. Windows is the solution to that. I rest my case :D
Start Up: A silicon valley adventure by Jerry Kaplan, published by Warner Books (ISBN: 0751517135). Warning: This is the UK edition of the book.
Apologies if this is redudant; I have to pop out now and don't have time to check if this has already been mentioned.
Plays violent online games as: Nerfherder76
The Newton still has users today. You've obviously never had to pry a cold dead Newton from the fingers of a distraught Newton user to send it off for repairs. The Newton doesn't have users, it has addicts.
Sara
Designer, Gamer, Macgrrl in an XP World
I am guessing it would be the heaven you had in mind. Multiple forks, feuding camps, a veritable holy-war, which the Linux Newbie PenPoint customers do not understand, and are only left with questions and no answers.
but I'm a bit remiss as to how that's flamebait. I mean c'mon, socratic irony n stuff
If I were NYTimes, I would consider giving a partner status to slashdot so that they can find out where hits are occuring. Right now, I suspect that we skew the google linkage by quite a bit.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
You seem to think Microsoft recognizing it was no longer a monopoly, and abandoning monopolistic pricing, in that limited space is somehow equivalent to dumping.
That's not what "dumping" is. What you described are known as responsible business practices.
They had to give up margin to remain competative, but the margin wasn't negative. They still made money. And why on earth would a company want to make it's products compatible with a direct competators product. That's just insane.
Yeah, IE was free. So was Mosaic, which was the best browser available up to the end of the project.
Netscape was trying to sell for money, what the US Government was trying to give away for free, source included, OH and was better quality product.
Netscape was trading, and only trading, on people's ignorance.
Why should Microsoft be prevented from taking this free software, which the government has already paid for, and giving it away to its customers? And even monkeying with it, experimenting on how it can be used to make their existing products better.
Netscape didn't innovate anything. They just assumed they were entitled to money for nothing.
By your reasoning, Linux should be illegal, because Microsoft is entitled since they got there first with a commercial product. Yeah, doesn't sound so reasonable when your logic is applied there does it?
We love you Libertarian fiscal conservative/social liberals. You guys are so cute: "I do hate capitalism. But I hate socialism and communism even more." That is SO close to how we think, if you can ever get us to admit it ;-)
Let's get over this whole label thing. Let's focus on the 90% of things we agree on. Find yourself in a tizzy over what some 'idiot' in the 'opposite camp' thinks? CALM DOWN! Move on. Find something you agree on. If you are both thoughtful people there will be something.
I think social programs do some good. I think corporate regulations work more often than they fail. Okay, we disagree on those things. So what? I bet you and I agree that corporate welfare sucks, that people should be able to do what they want with their own bodies and with consenting adults, and that divisive punks obsessed with labels and ad-hominem attacks need a good talking to.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Hehe, went to look this up, hoping to be the first to give that particular bit of refutation. Now I'll just have to settle for giving a link. Came out in 1983, suckas!
Joe Clueless downloads a program for his linux distro called pammypussyfuck. He launches the program. The program says "I need your root password to run, otherwise I can't access the screen". What Joe Clueless does in response to this? That's fucking right, enters the root password! So if users are clueless, how exactly is Linux more secure than Windows, anyway?
Well I have two things to say about this whole situation.
One I've signed up I don't know how many times. But for one reason or another it forgets, and I have to sign up again. That's INCONVIENT.
Two now why can't OSDN become a NYT partner? Lord knows we certainly have the traffic (slashdot effect anyone?).
Put some of that subscription money to use.
Not to defend MS or anything, but I have my Windows 2000 MCSE, and I know what a differential equation is, and how to solve many types of them.
However I learned that at a University, not from Microsoft Press.
I noticed you're getting chewed out by the "my computer doesn't crash" and "Linux crashes now and then". I think that both groups are missing the big picture. If you look over the entire history of Microsoft, for the majority of it, they did indeed have a reputation for crashieness. Remember the pavlov experiment were the dog gets conditioned to a particular response when the bell rings? The same thing happened with the computing public, and with a 90% market share that group was a large one. One can argue that Microsofts present offers don't crash anywere that much (I would agree. I run W2K and Linux). However reputations are hard to shake, just ask ATI. Also we have several living generations fearful of their computers. Afraid that they will break it. How many people do you know that are afraid of their cars? Afraid they will randomly spin out of control, killing them, and harming others. THAT is Microsoft's legacy, and even if they shake it, people will not forget what was, anymore than an abused child will forget it's past, no matter how healed it is presently.
--I doth predicteth that all currencies based on "borrowing into existence" will always drop in the long run against tangible coined precious metals "money", and that what you can trade the coined money for will rise in real value as opposed to drop with the intangible.
..well.. it's a crime, it's pure theft from others. Stocks (for most purposes once past IPO) are no longer *investments*, they are gambling chips. Perhaps if there was a rule/law that stocks must be held for one calendar year before being sold or traded, they might still represent an "investment" in a company, because for sure, no company can produce a widget and sell it during the time frame of "buy in the morning before the sucker rally run-up, then sell early in the afternoon". That's just gambling.
I've had this notion since the 60's when real silver change was still in my pocket.(well, I DO still carry silver and gold in my pocket, but I know that is rare...)
Example, personal: As a young nerd going to mickey D's (when the sign said just a few million served) one paper dollar OR one silver dollar would be traded to the mickster for 5 regular burgers, one shake, one fry, and I would get one nickle back in change. Today that paper dollar gets you what-one burger and some change? Whereas a silver dollar (I'm being sort of loose here but you can get my point) is worth approximately 7 to 12 big macs perhaps.
Stocks-no idea, I stay away. Government paper ditto. Seems like gambling to me. Government paper is a tax in advance, a lot of it on the next generation, and I feel it's
I also think usury should be civilly illegal. It leads to parasitism, IMO, and the phony money scam all the big banks use.
(Yes, I hold a few old testament-styled views of things).
To get back to today's currencies, the euro will do moderatly well (partially Au backed), the new moslem gold dinar will do fabulous, the green (peach) back will continue to drop--we've lost the produced wealth that made it valuable. The oil producing nations used their received petrodollars to purchase US goods, when we still manufactured everything-now, no need. They are losing interest and dumping bucks as fast as they can-but still slow enough to not have them lose even more value than they have. There's also the dilemma of foreigners to the US hoplding the bulk of the mortgagenotes (way up the scambank food chains), and most of the dotgov paper, so they have to be cirumspect as well, but really, the dollar will continue to decline, give it a high %90 percentile rating on that occurring. I also give a high 90% rating to china soon doing some straight swaps, no currency involved, manufactured goods for oil, eliminating the banking middleman and being tied to the dollar. They will still USE dollars, but only (mostly) to continue to purchase machine tools and other high tech gear from the US and some other western nations.
They are smart, think long term. I hate their dictatorship, but you have to admire a system that can so completely bamboozled so many alleged "smart" westerners.
People think we get cheap stuff from china, when it's really the reverse-china is getting the means to become even more wealthy (and quickly, too)for pennies on the dollar, and even those pennies are donated/given to them. They got to be laughing every day about it....
Wealth is either mined, grown, or it's a combination of the two in some manufactured form, and that's it. Everything else is a wealth-rearrangment.
zogger
"there are no morals in the corporate world it is just me, myself, and I."
There's just one small thing wrong with the above. not the sentiment mind you, but the expectation that morals will somehow arise from a corporation, naturally.
Here's the secret to having a moral corporation. You build it using moral people. Here's the secret to building a moral government. Build it using moral people. Here's the secret to building a moral country. You fill it with moral citizens.
We have as individuals, neglected our morals, and since everything is built upon the individual citizen. Well "Ye reap as yea, shall sow."
people just accepted that computers needed regular rebooting after running Windows 95
:)
Don't look at me, I used OS/2 Warp until I got a copy of win95 OSR2 in '97. It wasn't until 99 or 2k when I got a copy of 98SE that I switched to that. Now I'm using 2k, and will be until I see if longhorn is worth the effort. If it isn't, I'll be upgrading late to yet another Microsoft OS to avoid the hassles.
It's been a long time.
It makes you wonder how Microsoft continues to get away with these things. And then, yesterday the U.S. government says that it thinks it did enough to Microsoft and that the EU should not be levying such a high fine! Who the heck are they kidding?
But Officer, I DID read the f**king article!
IIRC the only difference between Navigator and Navigator gold was the HTML editing tools of the latter. IE has never had such tools and I'm pretty sure Microsoft have never distributed any such tools for "free".
Not true. MS bundled FrontPage Express into win98 along with other little IE tools. Personal Web Server, Web Publishing Wizard, Web-Based Enterprise Mgmt...
Most (if not all) of the "bundled" applications in Windows are basic and don't provide advanced functionality. Microsoft can't win, of course - they either get blasted for leaving out functionality (no tabbed browsing ! no popup blocking !) or they get blasted for putting it in (anti competitive ! abusing monopoly power !)
They should be blasted for both. MS only bundles MS products and locks out other vendors at the OEM level, and almost every other level.
Another thing MS bundled was DOS and Windows into win95 to block DRDOS and kill the DOS competition.
Given the sheer crappiness of Real's product, I'm amazed anyone could even try to say their death might be Microsoft's fault, with a straight face.
Easily. MS can be a factor independent of the quality. Your excuse seems to be "All of those products deserved to die," blame on others, and denial that MS is even a factor.
What would it take for you to be convinced that MS was a monopoly or has committed crimes? Is there any scenario that MS would be doing something as charged, and can you please describe it to me? As far as I can tell, there is absolutely nothing that would convince you. This would help all of us in determining if it's worth arguing with you at length.
I've never met anyone - even amongst clueless newbies - who actually enjoys using Real's player, or uses it for any reason except absolute necessity.
Yes, the windows-bundling effect on a product is interesting. It increases the market share of a product even when it's crap. Just like with AOL. The cost for this bundling was that AOL had to drop Netscape and use IE as their browser. What was the cost to Real? I forget.
Try The Eyre Affair , a quite fun read wherein you could just about sell your soul to a book... or at least to the characters in it, be they written in or only visiting...
Cheers
"What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
"A four-foot prune."
I believe the type of code used in any online system has to be balanced against ease of use, extensibility and speed. When you really have to pay attention is when you've got the traffic Slashdot has... That's when every nanosecond counts, not on some blog site that gets 800 hits a day. :-)
:-)
So for me, I code for quick neutral-coder interpretation, ease, and portability. I don't use switches that much, as I prefer if/elseif/else combos, as they are easier to manage and they take less of a hit than switches. Another thing I like doing, is finding alternate methods to using if statements; for example I had a page that checked the values to rule out hack attempts. It was growing to a large size of checks that I became concerned of the length of the whole if-loop. It hit me that due to the nature of the data, running in_array and stuffing the accepted values into an array ($this[]= 'value54443';$this[]= 'value54444';) sped things up significantly, with the added benefit of being easy to add accepted values. Liberal use of Unset() also helps.