iPod Generation 4 Released

I_am_Rambi writes "According to MSNBC "The considerably tweaked fourth-generation iPod will roll out this week, and Newsweek got an advance peek. It looks a bit different, operates more efficiently, has a few more features and costs less. Here are the highlights...." Improved battery life, upto 12 hours, a click wheel, more efficient menus, multiple on the go play list, and probably one of the best changes is a lower price. $399 (down from $499) for a 40 gig, $299 (down from $399) for a 20 gig, and there are no 15 gig versions." And you can read Apple's iPod site for the full details.

Comments

20gb = no dock!

[Anonymous Coward]

Notice that price cut with 20gb version was made by leaving dock out of the package.

Re:20gb = no dock!

[JHromadka]

Honestly, since Airport Express came out, I don't need the dock anymore. When I'm at home, I just stream from my Mac to my stereo using APX instead of having my iPod next to the TV.

Re:20gb = no dock!

[Mattb90]

The carry case was also removed from both models to reduce the cost. Adding both back in to the 20GB model brings the price to £276.99 on the UK store (down from £299.99) and $377 on the US store (down from $399). A reduction, but not as significant as Apple make out.

Re:20gb = no dock!

[joeykiller]

Ever since the day Apple started selling iPod models with several hard disk sizes, the low end model have always been sold without the dock. So this isn't new, but it may be confusing that the old "middle" model (20gb) now is the low end model.

Re:20gb = no dock!

[fyonn]

according to the tech specs (but not the store), the 40G one does have the carry case. still, the price in dollars converted to pounds is about £213 so quite a significant saving to be made if you can import one. sure the power plug is different, but a simple uk fig 8 cable can fix that.

dave

Re:20gb = no dock!

[thaddjuice]

Notice that price cut with 20gb version was made by leaving dock out of the package.

The base model ($299) has _never_ had the dock, carry case, or remote. Now it's just that the base model is the 20GB.

Re:20gb = no dock!

[EulerX07]

Allright then, they didn't remove anything, they just bumped up the base model to 20 gigs. But why does the article say it's 299$ down from 399$ then? You have to pick one :

1) Price has been reduced from 399$ to 299$.
2) They did not remove the dock or carry case.

One or the others, you can't have it both ways.

Re:20gb = no dock!

[MachineShedFred]

This isn't as complex as you are trying to make it.

here's how this works:

1. The low end iPod doesn't have a dock or carrying case. It never has.

2. The 15GB model has been eliminated, and the 20GB is now the low end.

3. The 20GB iPod cost you $399 yesterday, and now it costs $299.

Therefore, with these three statements, there was a price reduction, and the product line has been enhanced where the accessory opkits remain the same.

Stop thinking you're getting screwed when you really aren't.

Re:20gb = no dock!

[Anonymous Coward]

Is your voice as nasal and annoying in real life as your posts seem to be?

Re:20gb = no dock!

[violajack]

I think the confusion is coming from the two ways of looking at it. You are correct in all of your statements, except for a few important things:

1. The low end iPod has always cost $299.

2. The low end iPod has been upgraded from 15GB to 20GB.

3. Yesterday, the 20GB iPod would have come with a dock, remote, and carrying case, and now it does not.

You can either look at it as a price/accessory reduction in the 20GB model, or you can look at it as an upgrade in the storage capacity of the low end model.

Re:20gb = no dock!

[dasmegabyte]

To be completely honest, the 20 gig model they're offering is DIFFERENT from the old 20 gig, anyway. It's not the old "middle" model" bumped down, it's a completely new base model with the same price as the old middle one. Besides the new click wheel (which is a mixed blessing, I *LIKE* the round buttons but the one wheel design is so clean and will make for sturdier accesories), there's also the preeminent Shuffle feature on the main menu. A minor change, but something I would use all the time, since I like to switch between "play this album in context" and "full tilt random" depending on my mood. Right now, this means going back three or four menu levels, surfing to settings, and surfing to Shuffle - Songs. Shuffle on the menu eliminates the need to do this for every switch, and also eliminates one level of searching.

I hope they implement this functionality on the 3G, but since it's a minor enhancement that may sell the new model, I doubt it will find its way back. Shit, it'll sell it to me, soon as that 60 gig is out (my full library is an ever expanding 83 GB, and it's eating 50 gig of my 80 gig laptop drive at any given time).

Furthermore, the dock and carrying case are incentive accessories and are not worth the add on price, anyway. They're not bad, but the case is a little chintzy and the dock no more useful than a straight line cable. They're added to make paying $400 or $500 seem like a better deal. I used my plastic case for about a week before investing in a series of third party accessories, culminating in the excellent iSkin EXO2. I have never seriously used my dock...for a while, it sat on my stereo, but when it did I had no control over the ipod so I switched to a wireless line out (900 MHz, not an FM tuner).

Re:20gb = no dock!

[mattyohe]

It doesn't matter that the "low end has always been without a dock and case", the point is that apple only shaved 22 dollars of the price of the 20gb not 100.

Re:20gb = no dock!

[nicky_d]

Well, according to the "20gb to 40gb upgrade" email posted later in the comments (and, as you say, the store), the 40gb model doesn't actually include the carry case or the remote. Adding both those (on the UK site) puts the price up by £60, leaving it just £40 short of the old price. It's not that great a reduction when you look at it that way - though if you were planning to get a better case anyway, you'd be grateful you didn't have to pay for the default one.

Personally, I couldn't do without the remote, regardless of the new wheel - I don't want to be pulling the iPod out every time I want to pause or skip a track. And if I *was* willing to do that, I'd certainly want to buy a decent case with wheel access to protect the iPod...

The battery life improvement is good, and there's certainly a price drop in there somewhere, but it doesn't seem like a particularly fantastic update to me. And thank God, because I can't afford to buy another one.

Re:20gb = no dock!

[hooverbag]

40gb model doesn't actually include the carry case or the remote

although the tech specs page still lists them as included accessories for the 40gb model... Earbud headphones, dock, remote, carrying case, AC adaptor, FireWire cable, USB 2.0 cable, 4-pin-to-6-pin FireWire adaptor

Re:20gb = no dock!

[OrthodonticJake]

I have found that it is beyond easy to control my 2g iPod without removing it from my pocket. I don't even need the remote; I just know where the buttons are. This new click wheel should bring that option back again; just try it, it's a lot easier than you may think. Of course, this is all in-playlist navigation. To switch albums or playlists or crap like that I still take the thing out of my pocket, but you'd have to with the remote too.

Re:20gb = no dock!

[MrMickS]

Hmmm.... just checking the UK Apple Store gives me a price of £219 for the 20GB one.

Re:20gb = no dock!

[Miguelito]

since Airport Express came out, I don't need the dock anymore. When I'm at home, I just stream from my Mac to my stereo using APX instead of having my iPod next to the TV.

Same here. I finally received my APX on Friday and hooked it up this weekend. The audio streaming is great, and I moved my printer out to the living room from my office too, because I only ever print from my mac anyway.

In fact, I had an audiotron in my living room that I used to use, but it started failing on me a couple weeks ago (tons of static and popping noise even over toslink.. and it's not the cable). I was trying to decide if I should get another atron, or just use the APX... after playing with it this weekend, I think I'm sticking with the APX. I always have my powerbook on when I play mp3s at home anyway.

My only gripe so far was that I hadn't noticed it doesn't come without any cables.. I wish it had come with a toslink cable too, but that's not that expensive.

Re:20gb = no dock!

[spee]

the 15gb g3 version didnt have no dock :p

Re:20gb = no dock!

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok, this is absurd... you're really missing the point.

3. The 20GB iPod cost you $399 yesterday, and now it costs $299.

The 20GB iPod PACKAGE cost $399 yesterday. That included the 20GB iPod, cables etc..., the dock, and the carrying case. Now, the same package without either the dock or carrying case costs $299. All this means is that a different package which has just been introduced costs $100 less than an older package. It certainly doesn't imply that the same old thing now costs $100 less, especially given that the new iPod is...new, 4g, whereas the older package was 3g. Is this really that difficult?

Re:20gb = no dock!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, but they dropped the dock, carry case and remote from the 40GB one as well.

So, the point is - they're giving you less, for the lower price. And for the price of the dock etc. it's about the same price as it was before.

A little bit under-handed don't you think? Now, possibly only the top-end 60 GB (when it becomes available) might carry the remote, carry case and dock - or they may have dropped them altogether so they can get extra moolah from selling you the very things that used to be included in your purchase.

Very disappointing. (And I was holding out for an iPod from this release too, until I learnt that).

Re:20gb = no dock!

[dagny_dev_]

That's a bunch of malarkey. The 'base' level iPod in each release has been missing a dock. And they cost about 5 bucks to produce.

Re:20gb = no dock!

[SmittyTheBold]

I think the parent realized that, but was trying to point out that the $100 price drop was acheived not by obtaining cheaper components, but by leaving 'optional' components out of the deal. It's not so much of a price drop once you re-add the dock, which most people (I think) would want.

Re:20gb = no dock!

[thaddjuice]

Mostly a good point. The 40 still includes the dock, but you're right about the case and the remote. I never use the remote, but I certainly couldn't live without a case. Oh well, I guess they have their reasons.

Re:20gb = no dock!

[fyonn]

nope, they've fixed it now :( the tech spe3cs no-longer list the carry case or remote, which is annoying. I was planning on buying one and then bitching to apple that they weren't included, but I can't do that now.

still, I suppose I wanted the vaja case anyways

dave

Re:20gb = no dock!

[Anonymous Coward]

Allow me to make a little drawing for you.

B is the old 20 gig
S is the old 15 gig
X is the new 20 gig

B ---> X, 100 bucks less, without the case and dock
S ---> X, Same package, same price, bumped from 15 gig to 20 gig.

Now people are trying to say that it's 100 bucks less, same package, *and* bumped from 15 gigs to 20 gigs. My graph clearly shows that this is BS.

Retard.

ARRRGGGH.

[ZorinLynx]

They REFUSE to give us an inexpensive iPod. Rather than drop the price of the 15GB, they simply cut it and leave the existing lowest price the same with a bigger disk.

Why do they refuse to offer an iPod for $200? They'd sell like hotcakes. Not everyone needs 40 freakin' gigs.

-Z

Re:ARRRGGGH.

[fitch609]

I agree with you totally. I've been waiting for that to happen. I have tons of music but I definitely don't need a 40 gig ipod to put all that music on there because I don't even listen to most of it. Until the price comes down more, i'm just going to use my CLIE to play my MP3's. My 256mb card is plenty enough space to listen to music and it keeps me happy.

Re:ARRRGGGH.

[swordboy]

Why do they refuse to offer an iPod for $200?

Umm... Marketing?

The iPod is very successful. Right now, the people that are buying them are going to pay a premium. When this market is saturated, they can then sell lower priced versions. This is pretty straight forward economics.

I'll be one of the first to buy the cheap version that comes out around Christmas time.

Re:ARRRGGGH.

[galaxy300]

Because they're selling like hotcakes at the price point they're at already. Why undercut themselves? I'm sure they've spent quite a bit of time studying the market, and considering their earnings last quarter (61 million profit, much higher than expected) you probably shouldn't expect a price drop anytime soon.

If you're looking for a cheap iPod, check eBay.

Re:ARRRGGGH.

[Anonymous Coward]

News for you - iPods are selling like hotcakes as it stands. And an iPod that's even cheaper is probably below cost.

Re:ARRRGGGH.

[jacksonai]

Mmh, hotcakes /homer simpson

Re:ARRRGGGH.

[Saven Marek]

Why do they refuse to offer an iPod for $200? They'd sell like hotcakes. Not everyone needs 40 freakin' gigs.

Look at it from apples point of view.

iPods already sell like hotcake at the profits their making.

The Nets Biggest Adult Anime Gallery's

Re:ARRRGGGH.

[shplorb]

Why do they refuse to offer an iPod for $200? They'd sell like hotcakes. Not everyone needs 40 freakin' gigs.

They're already selling like hotcakes, nimrod.

Q: Why would you drop the price on something that you already can't make enough of?

A: You're an idiot?

If this post offends you, it's because the truth hurts. Try saving up, it's how a lot of us can afford expensive items.

Re:ARRRGGGH.

[Phekko]

I predict it'll be a long time before Christmas arrives, then

Re:ARRRGGGH.

[Anonymous Coward]

How much cheaper could a 15gb hard drive be than a 20gb hard drive? You probably can't make the 15gb version that much cheaper anyway.

Re:ARRRGGGH.

[jcbphi]

In addition to the marketing aspects pointed out by other folks, let me remind you of the economics of marking these things.

Hard disks, such as those used in the iPod, have high fixed costs to produce. So while it may be possible to cram more bits in the same package as technology advances, its difficult to take an older, smaller disk and produce them cheaply. The single biggest cost in producing an iPod is the hard disk. QED, etc.

Also, given that iPods in all varieties have been selling like hotcakes from the start, why would Apple want to lower the price? Clearly lots of people are willing to pay the $300-$500...I know I was.

Re:ARRRGGGH.

[BMonger]

It is possible that the components other than the hard drive cost X amount where X is more than $200. I have no clue if this is the case but... an iPod without a hard drive could cost $200 or more. Thus the reason there is no $200 iPod.

Re:ARRRGGGH.

[Blondie-Wan]

Aside from the fact all iPods in general are already selling like hotcakes (as several others have pointed out), they're also selling the iPod mini, a 4 GB iPod that costs $249. What are they supposed to do, sell a full-size iPod with a higher capacity for $50 less??

Re:ARRRGGGH.

[OmniVector]

everyone keeps replying to you saying it's because they're selling like hotcakes, or it's marketing, etc. bla bla..

sorry, the truth is it costs almost the same amount to make a 15gb hd as a 20gb. infact, i bet the difference is measurable in a few dollars. so what's your choice. offer a 15gb at $290 and 20gb at $300, or just a 20gb at $300? it's pretty simple which one apple's going to sell. until the manufacturing costs come way down on miniturized hard drives, it will pretty much be the same price for years to come.

Re:ARRRGGGH.

[Kjella]

First off, it could hardly come as a surprise. This is Apple's standard way of introducing products, same as their Macs. The old models don't go cheap, they disappear. In addition to already selling like hotcakes, they also sell by being expensive. The same goes for many other status symbols (which the iPod certainly is).

Yes, they could drop prices, try to be the "Windows" of mp3 players. But it requires a completely different business process. More cost-efficient solutions (read: cut corners), less R&D, heavy optimization of the production process and so on. Move around production based on wage costs etc.

Trying to be a price leader is a very tough market. Unlike software, where you "accumulate" code, the hardware business is full of clone makers, staying just out of reach of your patents. I don't think the iPod would be anywhere near the success it is, if Apple had chosen that strategy. It is simply not in their corporate culture and way of thinking, quite simply: others are better at it.

Instead they build brand, making people want an iPod, not pick it on price. Clone makers can't really touch that, because they customer specifically wants an iPod - not any other brand. And it is amazing how much cash you can up with for something you want, if only you prioritize...

Kjella

Re:ARRRGGGH.

[erick99]

Apple has always been this way. They do not want to have a low end product for any category. They have gotten away with this for many years though at the cost of market share. They can get away with it for a bit longer because they have a big cash stockpile and the iPods are profitable for them. I suspect that at some point they will run out of luck or steam. It may take a while but they just don't have enough going for them to sustain this business model forever. They could "reinvent" themselves as a much smaller company then they are now and have a better chance but, then, who knows?

I am neither a supporter nor detractor of Apple. I worked for an Apple reseller from 1983 to 1998 and sold Apple for most of those years and it was enjoyable. Eventually they undercut the dealer channel and that probably contributed to market share decline as the dealer base switched to pushing Windows machines.

It will be interesting to see what Apple looks like in five years. They might innovate themselves into a good position or they might slip into the tech graveyard. Hard to tell.

Cheers!

Erick

Re:ARRRGGGH.

[Jeff DeMaagd]

Hey, guys, how well do hotcakes sell?

And what if I wanted waffles?

Why do they refuse to offer an iPod for $200? They'd sell like hotcakes. Not everyone needs 40 freakin' gigs.

Seems like a false argument by pointing to the top model when discussing a hypothetical bottom end? If one doesn't need 40 freakin gigs, why not buy the 20 gig version for $100 less than the 40 gig version?

Re:ARRRGGGH.

[achilstone]

Look on the bright side, this will drive down the prices in the secondhand market.
*That's if Apple can keep up with demand.

Re:ARRRGGGH.

[Lev13than]

Hey, guys, how well do hotcakes sell?

Hard to say, but I heard a rumour that Pillsbury just came out with a new hotcake that's selling like iPods.

Re:ARRRGGGH.

[scorp888]

They do offer a $200 ipod.

They being creative, and the ipod being the Zen.

Or did you mean that you just wanted Apple to do you a special deal?

Re:ARRRGGGH.

[Anonymous Coward]

Do some research (Froogle, Dealmac for starters). "They" will never give you a price drop, but re-sellers will. At any given time someone has a 10GB (3G) on sale for $199.

Re:ARRRGGGH.

[Waltre]

Hey, guys, how well do hotcakes sell? hotcakes, they sell like iPods.

Re:ARRRGGGH.

[WormholeFiend]

eBay... or freeipod.com? but remember: TANSTAAFL.

Re:ARRRGGGH.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, because I want to pay more than retail for damaged, possibly stolen merchandise.

Re:ARRRGGGH.

[galaxy300]

I have no idea what TANSTAAFL means. Where's my handy Slashdot acronym dictionary when I need it?

Re:ARRRGGGH.

[monktus]

I remember hearing someone on TV refering to something selling like wildcakes. Maybe if Apple sold a Tiger-striped iPod, it might sell like those too.

Re:ARRRGGGH.

[Anonymous Coward]

There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

Re:ARRRGGGH.

[Anonymous Coward]

True about the manufacturing process. Most costs are from the drive mechanism, electronics, and enclosure. But, did you take R&D as a factor? In order to create higher density, a lot of research was done by highly paid engineers and scientists.

Re:ARRRGGGH.

[Dixie_Flatline]

I got a 10GB 3G iPod for Christmas last year. So, less than 12 months ago, for $299, you got a 10GB iPod, no dock, no accessories.

You can now get TWICE as much space for the same price in less than a year.

You say that you'd be willing to pay $200 for an iPod. I assume that means you could easily set that money aside and just go out and buy one if it took your fancy. Here's a suggestion: take that $200 and put it aside right now. For the next four months, put aside one dollar. You'll have the money you need in no time! You may even have a few dollars left over to buy some tunes at the music store.

Stop being so very whiny. They're giving a lot more to the buyer for the same amount of money. The value increases with each generation, even if the cost is the same.

Re:ARRRGGGH.

[raygundan]

I buy hotcakes about once a month, in bundles of 3-8, depending on size, appetite, and restaurant.

I don't have an iPod. I'd say the hotcakes are still winning, but it's a long ways to go before the pancakes develop the sort of "I'll pay $400" branding that Apple has. You'd have to make the pancakes white and shiny, with a radically simplified and improved UI.

Re:ARRRGGGH.

[ctrivedi]

If this post offends you, it's because the truth hurts.

Maybe it offends him/her because of your discourteous tone?

Re:ARRRGGGH.

[Go Aptran]

It's not general knowledge, Apple stores have factory reconditioned iPods for sale.

I was going to buy a 20 gig iPod, but the salesman clued me in and I bought a refurbished 30 gig for less than a price of a new 20 gig (old prices). It came with the usual accessories and the same one year warranty.

And there's always the eBay option

Re:ARRRGGGH.

[parkanoid]

And this is not marketing, how?

Re:ARRRGGGH.

[shplorb]

Maybe it offends him/her because of your discourteous tone?

I don't suffer fools gladly. People who make such obviously idiotic statments deserve to be shot down in flames. If I ever make such an idiotic statement then I can be shot down in flames, as I should be.

Anyone with even a single brain cell of common sense can see that there's no reason to lower the price when you're already selling more of the things than you can make!

Prediction

[GnuVince]

Slashdot nerds will complain that iPod's do not have OGG support and are thus evil and should never be purchased.

Re:Prediction

[eddy]

Slashdot nerds will complain that iPod's do not have OGG support and are thus evil and should never be purchased.

No Vorbis support doesn't make it evil, just worthless (for me).

Re:Prediction

[BJH]

iPods do not have Ogg Vorbis support, making them evil. They should never be purchased.

There, happy now?

Re:Prediction

[ZorinLynx]

That's what amuses me most about the whole OGG thing.

Considering that you're more likely to trip over a siberian tiger in Manhattan than to find an OGG file, the ability to play OGG is just an icing on the cake, and not really necessary in a portable music player.

Of course, if you're one of those overzealous people who compressed everything in their collection to ogg when the "MP3's are going to be illegal!!!#!##!##!!# WE MUST NOT USE IT!" craze of a few years ago, that's your problem. }:)

-Z

Re:Prediction

[bgfay]

It's not that it's evil or that it should never be purchased, it's just that I don't want to buy a system that is very expensive and will lock me into a platform I don't want to use. If I could just hook the thing up to my machine and put my music on it, then fine. But I have concerns about the DRM, about having to use Mac or Windows, and about the price.

If you can believe it, I still don't have a portable music player other than my six year old cd player. (I'm one of three people in the US without some sort of modern music device). If the iPod came out in a less expensive model that would work with my Linux box, I would buy it. Plain and simple.

For now, I'll let others enjoy it and refrain from calling them evil unless they also support Bush.

Re:Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

actually it is an Apple product, therefore it will be purchased no matter what it is.

remember the cube.

Re:Prediction

[Monkelectric]

You beat me to it :) I *want* ogg support. Is it *THAT* hard to do? No its not. Why won't they do it? Because like MS, Apple thinks they can tell me how to listen to my music.

Re:Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

I wouldn't call them evil, but i can think of another reason not to buy an iPod.
This is the fourth generation of iPods and they still haven't designed a way to easily remove and replace the battery.
What does that tell you?

Re:Prediction

[PriceIke]

I'd venture to say that a CD player is a modern music device. When I was growing up, we used cassette players .. we called them "Walkmans" back then.

And as for DRM, I've been using my iPod for about 6 months now and I have never had problems with using it as an MP3 player. I very rarely have issues with Apple's DRM, which only really applies to ITMS purchases. I don't use ITMS (much) so it doesn't get in my way of enjoying my music.

Re:Prediction

[tehcyder]

If you can believe it, I still don't have a portable music player other than my six year old cd player

And I don't even have a portable CD player. Gosh. The world's entire population is not aged under 21 with a need for constant background music.

Re:Prediction

[bgfay]

Thank goodness I'm not alone. Rock on, music luddites. Maybe I'll get out my discwasher, clean up and ALBUM and throw it on the turntable. I miss the seventies. (Well, not really.)

Re:Prediction

[GeckoX]

I would think you would have picked up on the fact that this thread was discussing the fact that it doesn't support ogg, which is a problem for those of us that use ogg exclusively.

We already know that it works with MP3 and that the DRM isn't that big a deal so quit beating a dead horse.

Re:Prediction

[GeckoX]

You haven't got a clue what you are talking about so please stop now.

Re:Prediction

[lenhap]

DRM? I think you have your facts wrong there buddy...of course this is /. so misinformed seems to be a prerequisite for posting.

First off, AAC, the standard that iTunes compresses to, is an open standard based on mpeg 4. Unlike Windows media 9, it adds no DRM to music you rip from a cd. You can take those AAC files and play them in any player that supports the OPEN standard of AAC, Advanced Audio Codec, the Audio portion of Mpeg 4. Also you can play a ton of other formats on iPods, AIFF, mp3, wav ... and so on. In case you have something against AAC, which in my opinion is the best sounding format by far, you can rip songs through iTunes to VBR MP3. The only time any DRM is involved is if you buy music from the iTMS, which you certainly don't have to do unless you want to.

As for Linux, I would bet that apple is trying to come up with a way to get iTunes to Linux. Of course you have to understand that there are many different distributions to support and they aren't about to distribute iTunes as source to be compiled on each individual distribution. Hence getting itunes to linux is harder than porting to windows. Think about how many different windowing environments there are.

Anyways, until hardware prices drop you aren't going to see Apple dropping their prices. And I think if they could drop their prices while maintaining their profit ratio, they would. Why wouldn't they want to gain more of the mp3 player market?

Just make sure you aren't misinforming other people here because you are only relaying information you heard word of mouth. Do some research before you go spouting opinions as fact.

Re:Prediction

[PsychoSid]

Not really. Apple can pander to whom they choose. If there was real money in it they would do it and cover the R&D and engineering efforts.

Re:Prediction

[nutsy]

1. Compress ripped CD audio to Ogg Vorbis
2. Share on your favourite filesharing system(s)
3. ...
4. Profit!

Re:Prediction

[LWATCDR]

"Considering that you're more likely to trip over a siberian tiger in Manhattan than to find an OGG file"

Well I find lots of OGG files. I rip my own CDs into OGG for my Rio Karma.
Why the heck shouldn't Apple add Ogg? It is a low cost feature and it is easy to find "legal" encoders for many OSs.

I have to wonder why no one has made a PDA with a 20 or 30 gig hardrive yet? It could even play Video files as well as music.

Re:Prediction

[jrockway]

Well because they're Apple. Apple goes for simplicity instead of features. AAC works, so that's what they use. Simple.

I don't necessarily think this is a good idea, but I'm not the product designer that's been doing this for years, either. Note that there's always the possibility that the iPod's CPU can't decode Vorbis in real time. It does run Linux, though, so just install Linux on the thing and run ogg123 :)

As an aside, I have a lot of FLAC files, but that's not really going to stop me from buying an iPod. Nothing a very small shell script can't fix.

Re:Prediction

[BasilBrush]

That's right. Because it really matters to Apple how you listen to music. In fact they are watching you now with binoculars from the building across the road.

It has nothing to do with not wanting to waste engineers time on an obscure format that a handful of people on Slashdot *want*.

Re:Prediction

[inzide]

What amazes me about the whole OGG thing: 1) Why on earth don't the vendors just throw the damn OGG support in there? I mean, it doesn't cost anything and by doing so they send a strong signal to holders of intellectual property: "We have alternatives, and we're ready to use them". 2) If you look at video encoding, XViD has overtaken the position of DiVX for quite some time ago (at least if you look at the number of encoded .. aehm .. non-profit video clips). XViD is in many ways comparable to Ogg Vorbis in that it's a high quality alternative to closed-source counterparts. How come OGG hasn't had the same success as XViD? Does it really take a few pirate groups to push it? /MK

Re:Prediction

[Dot.Com.CEO]

I find it funny that you write this:

Just make sure you aren't misinforming other people here because you are only relaying information you heard word of mouth.

a few paragraphs after writing this:

Unlike Windows media 9, it adds no DRM to music you rip from a cd.

The point, of course, being that DRM is an option to ripping CDs in Media player...

Re:Prediction

[mst76]

> OGG although free does not compete with MP3 (PRO) which in turn does not compete with AAC.

At 128kbps, Apple's AAC encoder was beaten by Ogg and Musepack in a recent public listening test, and performed only slightly better than Lame MP3.

Re:Prediction

[archen]

Um... I actually have a lot of music I purchased as ogg vorbis. If I need mp3 I'll just have to accept the loss from q5 vorbis to mp3. If I need a player I'd probably only accept one with ogg support. It's annoying that I can't just use any player, but I don't expect support for every weird format out there. People who can't accept that need to chill out a little.

Re:Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

OGG although free does not compete with MP3 (PRO) which in turn does not compete with AAC.

I'll go for Dolby AAC any day.

And this proves that this person has never even touched a Vorbis file, or listened to an mp3 (pro) on quality gear.

Frankly, I've used just about every codec under the sun. I've listened to them on etymotics, with quality DACs; I've listened to them on studio grade monitors. I've listened to them on a train, I've listened to them on a plane. I've listened to them on a boat, and I've listened to them with a goat (and he agrees with me on this one):

Vorbis is right up there with the best in terms of quality/size (if that's the defining factor, I think Vorbis beats even FLAC), and to put it succinctly, I just plain ***LIKE*** the sound of freedom.

Re:Prediction

[lenhap]

Actually that isn't information I heard word of mouth, but you are correct, the Windows media 9 DRM can be turned off. However it is on by default and from personal experiance, most users I run into have no idea any DRM is being applied or that there is any option to turning it off.

You are correct though, I should have given the whole story, that by default there is DRM but it can be turned off, rather than assuming people knew what I meant and further perpetuating a common misconception.

That being said, the rest of my orignial post should be correct. Though let it be known, I think windows media 9 audio encoding is about the worst quality of any encoding option, and the player is the worst option to go with when considering all the options. OGG in my opinion is good, and if AAC wasn't around I would probably be using it, however after comparing files ripped from cd to OGG and AAC, I (opinion here) think that AAC is the better encoding option if you aren't going lossless.

That should clear things up I hope.

Re:Prediction

[violajack]

I have to wonder why no one has made a PDA with a 20 or 30 gig hardrive yet? It could even play Video files as well as music.

I've been waiting for that device ever since the first iPod came out. Let's make one and sell it and make lots of money. Let's add Wifi and Bluetooth and cell phone capabilities so you can use your Bluetooth headset to make VoIP calls and cell phone calls and check your email or stream you music from anywhere.

I'd buy it.

Re:Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the fourth generation of iPods and they still haven't designed a way to easily remove and replace the battery. What does that tell you?

That the designers believed that the tradeoffs involved in making the battery easily replacable (greater bulk, reduced sturdiness and elegance) were not worthwhile, considering that under normal use, battery replacement is something that doesn't need to happen very frequently?

Am I right? Do I get a prize?

Oh, wait. I'm not paranoid enough, am I?

Re:Prediction

[GeckoX]

Apparently my post hit a nerve.

I guess I must apologise for defending my use of ogg, or rather, defending attacks against my use of ogg. You're right, I'll go convert my entire 50GB library of music to MP3 right away so as to avoid this unfortunate situation in the future.

Easier to mod as a troll than to have an actual conversation I know, but I much prefer the meaningful conversation.

Re:Prediction

[dasmegabyte]

Um.

Just because Apple do not themselves support Linux does not mean the iPod will not work on Linux. There are several prominent music export programs for Linux, as well as many good alternatives to iTunes on both Windows and Mac OS. Apple doesn't make iTunes for Linux, but why should they, considering how much money it costs for them to develop, test and support a new platform? There was dissent over whether iTunes for WINDOWS was worth it -- surely creating a solution for the slim number of Linux GUI desktops would be a loss venture. But Apple has been very good about not locking third parties out of their file format...even while they clamp down hard on people bypassing their sharing features. I think it's obvious they're making a distinction between good and bad hacking (from a continuation-of-our-business standpoint, not a moral one).

The DRM is only -- ONLY on files you download from the music store. Don't like DRM? No problem -- don't use the music store. APPLE DOES NOT EVER DRM YOUR FILES. Contrast this with the Windows Media Player, which wraps your files in DRM by default.

The iPod accepts industry standard formats in MP3 and AAC. Both of these having dozens of non-Apple encoders and will have more in the future.

Re:Prediction

[homer_ca]

The difference is that xvid and divx are both implementations of MPEG4 which is patented. The decoders are mostly compatible with each other's files. Vorbis is completely different from MP3 and AAC, and it's unencumbered by patents. Of course, I don't doubt the MPEG-LA would sue them anyway if Vorbis got popular enough to be a threat to MP3.

Re:Prediction

[b-baggins]

Sigh. Why do the great posts always happen when I have no Mod points?

The parent's post is just another example of how the typical slashdotter lives in a little egomaniac world where he thinks he is way more important than he actually is.

Re:Prediction

[nagora]

Considering that you're more likely to trip over a siberian tiger in Manhattan than to find an OGG file,

I have several thousand.

the ability to play OGG is just an icing on the cake, and not really necessary in a portable music player.

Given the above, there's zero point in me buying one that doesn't play OGG. Frankly, it would not matter to me if it didn't play any other format.

Of course, if you're one of those overzealous people who compressed everything in their collection to ogg

I like my music to sound good without taking up the whole hard drive, if that's what you mean by "overzealous".

On the other hand, there's no way I'd pay more than 50 quid for a portable music player of any kind so I doubt that Apple are interested in my desires.

TWW

Re:Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

Elegance wtf? Sturdiness? Bulk? Yeah, those apple engineers are so bright yet they can't be bothered to make the battery pack removable. Please.

Re:Prediction

[Oddly_Drac]

"Considering that you're more likely to trip over a siberian tiger in Manhattan than to find an OGG file"

Right, that's my trip to Manhatten off. I've found quite a few Ogg files.

Re:Prediction

[Jucius Maximus]

" Considering that you're more likely to trip over a siberian tiger in Manhattan than to find an OGG file, the ability to play OGG is just an icing on the cake, and not really necessary in a portable music player."

Clearly you do not surf illegal download sites. Many bittorrent album downloads are now in ogg and ape (monkey's audio, a lossless format.)

Re:Prediction

[Jucius Maximus]

"If I could just hook the thing up to my machine and put my music on it, then fine. But I have concerns about the DRM, about having to use Mac or Windows, and about the price."

It's amazing how a few facts can dispel FUD like this.

The iPod acts like a regular hard drive in an enclosure. There is no need to have iTunes or even a Mac or a Windows box. You can access the filesystem directly and copy your files over.

There are freely available m4a and mp3 encoders out there for you to encode to you heart's content. AAC is an open standard. Also it supports .wav and .aiff formats, the former of which is pretty universal.

As to DRM: What DRM, aside from the music store? If you don't want that, then don't use the iTMS. (Good luck finding another clearly legal online music store with less restrictive terms.) Just buy your physical CDs and rip to your heart's content.

Expensive I can understand, buy how exactly does the iPod lock you into any platform you don't want to use?

You have just been educated. Have a nice day.

Re:Prediction

[Monkelectric]

GROOWLLL. Look, apple does care what format is used, they promote AAC because AAC is the format of *their* service.

If apple didn't care, they would support quite a lot of formats like WMA and OGG, and FLAC like other players do. It wouldn't take much resources to do it, so don't tell me about valuable engineer time. I happen to know quite a lot about OGG, the code is even free, worst case is they would need a slightly larger rom and slightly faster CPU. And if companies like iriver can, then apple can to.

Re:Prediction

[Qamelian]

You may not be able to use iTunes, but you can still use the iPod with linux.

http://gtkpod.sourceforge.net/

Re:Prediction

[Broken Bottle]

Let's not forget that AAC was developed by Apple. Windows Media and MP# "work" too, but Apple has a vested interested in establishing their audio format, especially since it's got a little DRM built into it.

Chris

Re:Prediction

[shotfeel]

Don't forget that just because the IP is "free" it doesn't mean implementing, testing, and supporting it are free as well.

The best solution IMO would be for Apple to enable an open source implementation of vorbis support. That way they don't have to spend the resources to do the implementation, testing and support. OTOH, a poor open-source implementation would still reflect poorly on Apple (and may still cost in support), which Jobs likes to avoid.

Re:Prediction

[dcgaber]

Here you go: google for flac2mp3
link

Re:Prediction

[ballookey]

Yeah, but you also have Slashdot id in the 100 thousands. I had no idea what Ogg Vobis was the first time I saw it mentioned on Slashdot and I still don't except from the context other Slashdot users mention it in. I'd guess that anyone who does know what it is, has a Slashdot ID. How many iPod owners do, though?

I can't get upset if I can't find Jones Juice in Pavilions or Trader Joes - It's great juice, but it's hard to find support for my habit. I knew that going in.

I love this community, but sometimes it's a lot like New York: Thinking it's the world.

Re:Prediction

[Ageless]

Just one little nit. You can't just copy your files over to the iPod and listen to them. The iPod has an internal database that is required to be updated with song information before it will play them. That said, there is software available for about every OS that will do it for you.

Re:Prediction

[ryanwright]

You can access the filesystem directly and copy your files over.

Not if you want to listen to them on the iPod, you can't. You need to put them in a specific order and add them to the iPod's database. The iPod will not automatically index songs that are just dropped onto it's hard drive, and thus you won't be able to access them on-the-go.

Re:Prediction

[LWATCDR]

The version of the strong arm in the old IPod was just a little too slow to decode OGG. I would think that they latest version of the IPod would use the newer version of the Strongarm that can handle OGG. No it does not use any more power than the old Strongarm and I think it might even be pin compatable.

Re:Prediction

[LWATCDR]

Well wifi you can handle with a CompactFlash card. I would also add a USB slave port so you could use it as an external HD and a USB host so you could dump your digital pictures. Of course you could use the CompactFlash for that as well.

Re:Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, but you also have Slashdot id in the 100 thousands. I had no idea what Ogg Vobis was the first time I saw it mentioned on Slashdot and I still don't except from the context other Slashdot users mention it in.

You're a slashdotter, so be creative and go try it. There's half a bazillion freeware programs even for Windows that support Ogg Vorbis out of the box (you probably use one daily already). If you're into digital music, compare your favorite music encoded in your usual format to Vorbis. It's perhaps 10 minutes of your time that would go wasted to CS anyhow.

It really dosen't take good equipment to hear the difference, either. I'm betting you'll be pleased.

Re:Prediction

[Domini]

Isn't it marvelous that what I said was in fact true.

OGG is worse then MP3(pro) (but better then old normal MP3). Actually I've read up extensively and followed many blind listening tests. (64kb/s, 128kb/s) I will never re-encode any compressed music files (the worst thing you can do!). Thus I need to find a good codec and stick to it.

I'm a Linux/OS X fanatic but use win32 as well. (Run Debian unstable/OS X at home and RedHat/Fedora at work).

But when I actually give a comment that states the (sad) truth, I get moderated Troll... twice!

-grin-

Fortunately I'm maxed out on Karma anyway... -chuckle-

I think I have a Journal entry about music encoding which also states my opinions more clearly...

Re:Prediction

[Domini]

Exactly what I said in my original port... you get Insightfull and I get double Troll.

I guess that should teach me for speaking the truth in the first line on my post.

My comment bas based on blind listening tests... AAC is native in iTunes and I use win32 and Apple for media. iTunes rip about 10x faster than CDEX with less errors, and the auto-tagging is of a higher quality.

Re:Prediction

[Domini]

The slight margin that OGG and Musepack beat ACC with is about equal to the difference in kb/s of the codecs... consider that AAC and WMA were both at 128 and OGG was at 135. My music concerns do not stop there... I seem to have enough tools to edit and retag MP3 and AAC, and encoding of AAC is SUPER fast and decoding is not so CPU intensive...

Also, AAC was used from the inferior iTunes 4.2 instead of Nero at the time. I stick to iTunes and know about the sound quality problems in 4.5... something I'm sure Apple will fix soon.

Also, at the time I started to encode my music, AAC was better than Vorbis over time (and not just the past couple of months). AAC has still had a consistently good average. (The same arguments count for MP3 pro.

-shrug-

I'll stick to one format for the next year... I do not switch to the flavour of the month. For now AAC looks to be the most consistent and well supported. I dabbled in OGG a while ago, and was willing to live with it's quality problems at the time, but eventually ended up wiping and re-ripping in MP3 out of frustration.

Re:Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

> The slight margin that OGG and Musepack beat ACC with is about equal to the difference in kb/s of the codecs...

The Ogg files were on average 5.5% larger. But you cannot conclude from the fact that Ogg scored 4.59 and AAC 4.26 that "Ogg was only 7.7% better", that's not how it works. The scoring is on a ordinal scale, not a ratio scale. The conclusion you're supposed to draw from the test is that you have 95% confidence that people perceive the 135kbps Ogg files to be superior to the 128kbps AAC files (note the confidence intervals). Whether you think 5% bigger files is a good tradeoff for files that most people percieve to be better is up to you. Again, the test is not meant to show how much better the codecs are, relative to each other.
Also note that most people cannot distinguish the 134kbps Lame files from the 128kbps AAC files, their confidence intervals overlap for a big part.

> Also, AAC was used from the inferior iTunes 4.2 instead of Nero at the time.

iTunes was selected because it came out as the winning AAC encoder in the pre-selection, beating Nero amongst others.

> I stick to iTunes and know about the sound quality problems in 4.5... something I'm sure Apple will fix soon.

What if they don't? With Ogg, the community is encouraged to tune and improve the codecs (like the aoTuV implementation of Ogg, that came out as the winner), not so with AAC.
Fortunately, for AAC there are at least multiple competing implementations available, unlike the clear losers WMA and ATRAC3.

Re:Prediction

[nic barajas]

I know I shouldn't respond to an AC, but anyway...

Fact is that if you have a way to remove the battery pack, there's a significant chance that whatever's plugging that hole could come off. After all, that's what they would design it to do. And in order to make a properly-functioning slot to remove a battery pack, you'd have to close it somehow, either with a screw or something -- and you'd need extra space to hold that screw or whatever in place.

In the eyes of the designers of the iPod, it didn't seem worthwhile. Besides, with the fourth generation iPod, it has a 12-hour charge, which (although slowly) will degrade over a large enough portion of time that by the end of its life cycle you'll be in the market for a new player anyhow.

Editors, huh?

[TheRaven64]

And you can Apple's iPod site for the full details.

Nice job Hemos. Sentences should a main verb.

Re:Editors, huh?

[bs_testability]

I certainly

Re:Editors, huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

You must be new here.

Re:Editors, huh?

[BJH]

Yeah, I thought so too at first, but then I went to Apple's site.
On the right-hand side, it says "iPod your BMW.", so I guess 'iPod' is a verb.
Maybe Taco and Hemos have just been speaking some sort of future English all along. They're time travellers from the year 2100AD, trying to fit in with our primitive society, and the only ones in our time advanced enough to communicate in their language are Apple...

Re:Editors, huh?

[HaloZero]

Significant other talks like that a lot. Confuses the hell out of me. And then she gets frusterated with me because I don't understand her. *sigh*

Oh, topic. Right. Well, I've already got an iPod, I love it, I don't care about the new ones. I think the new design looks stupid, as I think the iPod mini looks stupid. It's 50 bucks less and not that 'mini'.

Stop improving on something that doesn't really need improvement (sans battery, mind you, but they don't need a full point release for that) or focus the improvement on something other than aesthetics. You've got the style DOWN run with it. Make it support OGG/CGI/Java/whatever the hell people want, and you'll have yourself a bloody free-for-all with peoples 'disposable income'.

Now make with the G5 PowerBooks before I have to go back to school.

Re:Editors, huh?

[barzok]

But verbing weirds words

Re:Editors, huh?

[foidulus]

Heh, the litle icon is also wrong too, iPods I guess can be considered a PDA, but the iPod has it's own little icon, why not use it?

Re:Editors, huh?

[clarkcox3]

ITYM "You must new here."

Re:Editors, huh?

[clarkcox3]

Verbing weirds English

Re:Editors, huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

You used verb as a verb- cool...
Makes sense that way- I mean why should verb be a noun?
Surely the most verby word should be verb...

Re:Editors, huh?

[MasterOfDisaster]

Shouldn't that be "Verbing nouns weirds english"? Unless youre verbing the english language itself, in which case, that's a whole new kind of weird.

Re:Editors, huh?

[comet_11]

the only ones in our time advanced enough to communicate in their language are Apple

Wow, so that's how the world ends. Oh well, at least armageddon will have a slick interface.

Re:Editors, huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

That would explain all the dupes.

Re:Editors, huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

On the right-hand side, it says "iPod your BMW.", so I guess 'iPod' is a verb.

It is a four-letter word, after all. Whenever I hit my thumb with a hammer, I usually shout "iPod it all to Mac!"

While it doesn't make me feel any better, at least it warns people around me of my severe displeasure.

Re:Editors, huh?

[clarkcox3]

No.

"Verbing" is the subject,
"wierds" is the verb,
and "English" is the object.
"Verbing" is not being used as a verb, it is a gerund, derived from a verb, which is made by "verbing" the noun "verb".

If you said "Verbing nouns weirds English", then you'd be completely discounting the "verbing" of the adjective "weird".

Re:Editors, huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

He was making a Calvin and Hobbes reference.

Re:Editors, huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, he's verbing weird (which is an adjective) to make a (funny) point.

If you've got to disect it you missed it.

Re:Editors, huh?

[druhol]

No. 'Verbing nouns weirds English' is the quote from Calvin and Hobbes. Biatch.

Re:Editors, huh?

[takotech]

Maybe Taco and Hemos have just been speaking some sort of future English all along. They're time travellers from the year 2100AD, trying to fit in with our primitive society, and the only ones in our time advanced enough to communicate in their language are Apple...

Goddamn goobacks! Dey took er jobs!

Re:Editors, huh?

[clarkcox3]

No, Biatch, the actual Calvin and Hobbes quote is "Verbing weirds language". And, in context:

Calvin: "I like to verb words."
Hobbes: "What?"
Calvin: "I take nouns and adjectives and use them as verbs. Remember when 'access' was a thing? Now it's something to do. It got verbed. Verbing weirds (sic) language."
Hobbes: "Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding."

Re:Editors, huh?

[kmankmankman2001]

Do keep in mind that Apple has a history of playing fast and loose with basic grammar. Does anyone remember "Think different"? Apple freed the world from the need to differentiate the usage of adjectives and adverbs, empowering all of us to assemble any sequence of words as we saw fit regardless of the lack of correct grammatical structure. When adverbs are outlawed, only outlaws will have adverbs!

Re:Editors, huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

ITYM "You must new here."

"All your bases belong to us"

Blood, that even makes sense!

Re:Editors, huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

You can blame the advertising agency where I work for that. If you send $10 to my paypal account I will videotape myself kicking the copywriter in the head and send you a copy.

Re:Editors, huh?

[AndyBusch]

I believe it's a command in headlinese:
And you can Apples - iPod site for the full details.

Re:Editors, huh?

[Bingo Foo]

Sounds like the ad agency might be liable to get sued if this results in trademark dilution.

"Trademark owners should never use the trademark as a verb or noun, implying the word is generic."

15gb

[rbolkey]

I guess they had to get rid of it. With $100 drop across the table, they would have been cheaper than the minis. Unfortunately, my price point would have been the 15gb with the $100 drop.

Re:15gb

[ODD97]

Sadly, the cost to make a tiny hard drive like that doesn't go down. Capacities go up, but the expensive part is the actual physical hardware, not the capacity. I agree that I would have seriously considered getting a 15GB if it were dropped $100.

Re:15gb

[Anonymous Coward]

check apple's refurb section. 15 GB new will probably be offered for $250 and a refurb for $200. if they still list them, you might be able to pick up a 10 GB new for $200 and refurbished for a bit less than that, even.

Re:15gb

[System.out.println()]

I don't like the terminology they chose to use: they didn't really drop the price $100, they just bumped the capacity up to the next model. The $299 model still doesn't include things like the dock connector. And of course, if they really dropped the price, there should be a $199 model now. THAT would've kicked larged amounts of ass....

Re:15gb

[Digitalia]

Funny that Apple's competitors can break this alleged hardware-cost barrier. It's not the cost of hardware which is an impediment to making iPods widely available--it's snobbery, pure and simple. If every Tom, Dick, and Harry had an iPod, then the Black Beret Apple Brigade wouldn't be nearly as hip as they otherwise would.

By consistently fixing the prices of their product above the market supported price, Apple ensures that the only people who will buy their product are the sufficiently affluent. If you want corroborating evidence, look no further than the recently announced plans by BMW to unite the iPod with their cars. Apple products are intended strictly for a niche market of consumers with large amounts of disposable income.

Re:15gb

[Moofie]

Since Apple can sell all the hardware they can make at the higher price, they would be STUPID to drop the price.

Want something cheap? Go buy one of Apple's competitors' devices.

Oh, you want it to have good design as well? I see. Then you get to pay for it. Get used to the notion that quality engineering costs money. Zero of Apple's competitors have quality engineered hardware.

Yes, including that Neuros lunchbox. Boy, that's a dumb looking piece of hardware.

Re:15gb

[Anonymous Coward]

Two words for you:
E. Bay.

Re:15gb

[b-baggins]

There is so much wrong with your post it's hard to know where to begin.

First, 51% percent of the MP3 market already is iPods. So your snobbery take is simply wrong. It may have started that way, but now it's become the "me too" syndrome. You aren't hip unless you have an iPod just like your friends.

Second, Alpine will soon be offering an iPod compatible sound system for you car, so there goes your second elitist argument.

Thirdly, iPods are enjoying triple-digit sales growth right now (last quarter sales were 180% above same quarter, previous year sales). Now, please tell me why a company that has 51% of the market, and is STILL enjoying triple-digit growth rates needs to change their pricing structure at all?

Re:15gb

[clf8]

Give it 2-3 years and that will be the iPod Mini. I predict the iPod itself will go away (at some point in the future), since there really is a limit on how much drive space you need. Either that, or it will evolve into something grander.

Re:15gb

[Drawkcab]

Possibly, but not certainly. While there is a limit on how much drive space you need, it is difficult to further miniaturizing batteries, and battery life is always important.

Plus, there is a limit to how small a thing needs to be before it is no longer an asset. A laptop so small that it is hard to read the screen or type on the keyboard is no longer benefitting from its small size for many users, and similarly a stamp-sized mp3 player would be too small for some.

My older iPod broke and I decided to replace it with a mini, which I like and is big enough for half of my music collection (the other half has a lot of crap I don't really need anyway). But when it starts getting this small, I can see someone choosing a model with 50% more volume for double the battery life.

Re:15gb

[Narchie Troll]

Dumb-looking. Only an Apple bigot could judge a functional piece of hardware based on its appearance.

Re:15gb

[Moofie]

No, I judge a piece of hardware based on its overall design, appearance being only one facet of that design. The interface on the Neuros looks totally hideous. As far as "funtional"ity (sic), I don't care how "funtional" it is if I have to have a luggage cart to schlep it around. It's enormous and heavy, and poorly designed.

You want one? Grand. It's got a great feature set, if you only go by the bullet points. Some of the features they promise to add someday look really nifty. Me? I'll take a well-engineered, small, light iPod.

But by all means, buy what makes you happy. Or don't.

YHBT. YHL.

Re:15gb

[Anonymous Coward]

OK, the iPod might be more mainstream than (say) the Apple G4 Cube.

But Apple is certainly using BMW Pricing to attract a "large disposable income" crowd. They don't need to change their strategy at all, but don't kid yourself into thinking iPods are marketed to the Everyman, yet.

Eventually things like the ipod will replace most of the boombox/dormstereo market. It's not there yet.

Re:15gb

[bwy]

At this point perhaps the mini price should drop $50. This recent set of enhancements to the regular iPod line adds new fire to the original speculation months ago about the mini vs. regular argument.

Now, $50 extra over a mini buys you even more, making the argument even more compelling.

Re:15gb

[pknoll]

Thirdly, iPods are enjoying triple-digit sales growth right now (last quarter sales were 180% above same quarter, previous year sales). Now, please tell me why a company that has 51% of the market, and is STILL enjoying triple-digit growth rates needs to change their pricing structure at all?

I agree with all of your points, this one especially. Your parent poster has no idea what he's talking about.

There's no reason at all to change their pricing structure. Looking at Apple's sales of the iPod and the iPod mini leads me to only one conclusion regarding their prices - that they're probably too low (for Apple, anyway). It's impossible to argue that they're too high, given such sales. I'd say they're exactly in the sweet spot for their target market.

Re:15gb

[jgs]

Apple is certainly using BMW Pricing to attract a "large disposable income" crowd

That would seem to be a better strategy than marketing to the "no disposable income" crowd. Kind of like John Dillinger's answer when asked why he robbed banks. "That's where the money is."

Firmware update

[Saven Marek]

is their a firmware update to bring the new features to my older ipod??? battery life is down allot and its only 2 years old. It still works but not as well as it used to and an update to get 50% more battery life would bring mine back to a new state, if it is by working differently instead of new battery technology, which I doubt.

anyone?????

The Nets Biggest Adult Anime Gallery's

Re:Firmware update

[Anonymous Coward]

There certainly is a firmware update, and in keeping with Apple's general update policy, it will only cost around $399. Now you can't ask much fairer than that.

Re:Firmware update

[jcostantino]

You can't magically 'get back' battery life. All rechargable battery cells have a finite amount of charge/discharge cycles until they start to lose capacity. You can do some googling and find companies that will sell you a new battery or replace it for you. There is always Apples' refurb program but it's the most expensive (although I believe you get a refurb unit instead of just a battery).

Apple will NEVER release firmware that upgrades older units to newer features unless it suits them. Example: Gen 1 and 2 iPods got ACC decoding but didn't get on the go playlists. They /could have/ done OTG playlists but that's one of the features seperating old from new.

Re:Firmware update

[__aafkqj3628]

I wish!

I don't see any technical reason why things like multiple generated playlists, speed-variable playback and hearing the clicker through the headphones can't be done on current iPods.
However, the current update page seems to restrict those features the the newest model.

I wish Apple wouldn't try and alienate their older customers so much like this. With software, it isn't so bad since the investment usually isn't as large. But with firmware and hardware, the investment can be quite conciderable.

Re:Firmware update

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

Yes I also want that update.
I've checked the iPod sofware update site and there's nothing about improved battery life on it. Danm!

The BBC article on this mentioned that apple improved battery life solely thrugh better firmware. Interesting. Sharp programming, or was the initial software ill-written bloat?

Re:Firmware update

[Anonymous Coward]

the improved battery life could be due to increased RAM. it used to be 32 MB. increasing that to 64 MB would cost marginally more for apple and would improve the battery life since HD will have to spin less often. in such a case, no firmware update will improve the battery life for older ones, of course...

Re:Firmware update

[leenoble_uk]

Hi, I'm what might commonly be regarded as a 'grammar nazi' although as far as I am aware spelling is not directly related to syntax. But anyway that's by the by. I was just stopped in my tracks by your post. In particular your correct spelling of the word 'lose". You my friend appear to be in a minority of internet users when it comes to being able to spell that particularly tricky word. Normally I might find myself ranting about how it isn't spelt with a double-o at this stage in my posting but in the interests of good karma (and no I'm not talking about my Slashdot Karma Rating(TM) which I couldn't give a flying toss about) I thought I'd congratulate you and thank you for paying attention in school.

Mod -5 offtopic - betcha!

Re:Firmware update

[afidel]

Actually throwing more cache ram at it might cause a reduction in battery life. At some point the HDD is spinning up so infrequently that it becomes moot unless you are skipping tracks like crazy, and no amount of cache will help there, but if you add more cache ram you have more rows of transistors that you must refresh with every clock cycle, and more current leakage. So adding more cache is generally a good thing but it is not a panacea.

Re:Firmware update

[novakane007]

I'm interested in the ability to play audio books at a higher speed. Do you think a simple feature like this will be included in a future update.

Re:Firmware update

[crackshoe]

alienate? you ( in this case, maybe they, but you is shorter) buy an ipod knowing the features it has. apple is not obligated to provide any new features to you - you bought an ipod, with foo features, which are update as problems occur - but you don't get feature bar when it show sup in the next years model.

Re:Firmware update

[OS24Ever]

You must be new to the computer industry. Someone releases a new product hoping you'll buy it, not continually updating an old product in the hopes you'll never need to spend money with them again.

Re:Firmware update

[(mandos)]

Yeah! I really hate when companies do this. I mean I bought my Acura Integra just a few years ago, and BAM, they discontinue it and start making the RSX. I called them up and asked for a free upgrade and they hung up on me. The bastards, alienating their true customers!!!

Mike Scanlon

Re:Firmware update

[503]

The 4g iPod uses the Mini's CPU which is different than the earlier models. Expect to see a firmware upgrade for the Mini, but older iPods are out of luck.

Re:Firmware update

[Phiu-x]

Exactly, it as if you'd request your car maker to "update" your car because now the newest models comes with air-conditioning."Hey I want this upgrade too!"

Re:Firmware update

[mbourgon]

Someone releases a new product hoping you'll buy it, not continually updating an old product in the hopes you'll never need to spend money with them again.

Yeah- like Half-Life. Or Neverwinter. Or Doom.
Oh, wait...

Re:Firmware update

[Aero Leviathan]

All I want is the shuffle option on the main menu. I was disappointed when I bought my 3g just a few weeks ago to find I could not configure that. There doesn't seem to be any technical reason they couldn't update the firmware to do that, other than they're a bunch of meanies and they expect me to pay $300 again or something.

Sigh.. ::pouts::

Re:Firmware update

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm with you 10000%.

I have a BMW 328i. I wish they'd let me pop in a 330 motor. I'd even pay a nominal fee for them to do so.

Heck, it isn't like the motor can't easily be replaced on these things. The mounts and everything are the same.

Re:Firmware update

[Anonymous Coward]

Points for noticing correct spelling of "lose": +5. Points for misspelling "by the bye": -2 Points for sentence fragment beginning "In particular your correct spelling" -3. Grand total: +0 Sorry, thank you for playing.

Re:Firmware update

[__aafkqj3628]

I hope so. I don't know the technical details of the new iPod though (and Apple tend not to reveal that readily).

Re:Firmware update

[__aafkqj3628]

Alienate was an exaggeration.

I'm not bitching at Apple that they should upgrade my iPod with the latest tricks. But if there are features that are clearly accessible to older users (unlike what it was between the generation 1/2 and 3), Apple just doesn't want to let you update them, that just seems like a 'fuck you' from Apple.

Re:Firmware update

[__aafkqj3628]

I'm drawing a distinction between the hardware update and the firmware.

In your example, I should be demanding that Apple fit me up with a click-wheel. What I'm saying is that they should let older users update using the new firmware (assuming it's a software updater restriction and not a technical restriction).

minis

[Anonymous Coward]

Mini Ipods Available in the UK, very soon.

Price

[prewashedironman]

The best bit about this i feel is that apples changed the exchange rate for the UK. In the USp the 20gb now costs what the 15gb did and the 40gb costs what the 20gb used to be. But in the UK we get the 20gb model for GBP30 cheaper than the 15gb model used to be(GBP220vs GBP250). Hurray for apple!

Re:Price

[b06r011]

exactly - now we only pay about £80 more than our state-side friends. lets be honest, it was getting a bit silly when, correct me if i am wrong, (and i am sure someone will as this is /.) you could buy in the US with the same number of dollars as pounds in the UK. (i.e. $400 or £400...)

does anyone think the drop in price is anything to do with the sucess of iTMS in europe? or is it just apple being nice to us?

Re:Price

[prewashedironman]

The $-£ conversion wasn't quite true, the prices used to be $299, $399, $499 for the 15gb, 20gb and 40gb respectively. The UK prices were £250, £300 and £400 for each. Not quite $1=£1, but not miles off.

Re:Price

[Anonymous Coward]

Right and you can thank your own government for those prices instead of a conversion from dollars to pounds...

I pay 8.1% sales tax, the VAT for a computer or accessory seemed to be on the order of 40% or more...

Re:Price

[amembleton]

UK Standard VAT rate is 17.5%

Source
Wikipedia entry

Re:Price

[Anonymous Coward]

When I was looking around I was unable to find a 15GB for less than £299 (outside ebay of course) so eventually bought a 20GB Thompson for £150 which does the same things (but isn't nearly as pretty, but I bought it to listen to it not look at it).

Re:Price

[weave]

Please don't forget that UK prices are inclusive of 17.5% VAT while U.S. prices are exclusive of sales taxes, that usually run from 0% to 10% depending on the state). I wouldn't be surprised if there was an import duty slapped on to the UK prices as well.

Not the full difference, but still. I can't buy a lot of Japanesse goods in the U.S for as cheap as I could in Japan with the current exchange rate either.

Re:Price

[evangellydonut]

really? I keep on hearing stories of Japanese people coming to the US to buy electronics since Japanese companies significantly reduce the prices on some of those things before exporting it here, I guess "dumping" on the market is what it's called...

Re:Price

[Anonymous Coward]

No...equivalent models will cost about the same. They'll be slightly more expensive in Japan, but Japan has higher taxes and vastly inefficient sales methods - iPods and other American goods will also be slightly more expensive in Japan.

Although there is a tendency to sell showcase models in Japan, for outlandish prices that most peple in the US (and most people in Japan) woudn't think of paying - and then seeing if the technology catches on. Last time I was there, there was some portable video screen device that was selling, I believe it used a removable memory device, and I believe nothing has come of it.

european price markup - why?

[davids-world.com]

the European version sells for 284 (370) Euros excluding sales tax (which is usually another 15-20 percent!). That is USD 353 plus tax. Why the markup?
Are there higher import taxes for electronics from Taiwan?

Or is the Eurpean market just considered not so competitive?

(Btw: Canon is doing that as well with their digital cameras. Really annoying!)

Re:european price markup - why?

[brandonY]

One of the reason a lot of things, especially electronics, are more expensive in europe is that both the euro and the pound are beating our U.S. dollar into submission at the moment. In reverse, visiting America from England is like having a nationwide 50% off sale.

Re:european price markup - why?

[mjs]

Europe has some legal requirements that increase costs. For example, in the UK at least, you can return anything you buy within 10 days of buying it, for full refund, even if you simply decide you don't like it anymore. As far as I know you can't do this in the US.

See UK T&C ("If you have received the ordered Product(s) and have simply changed your mind about purchasing them you may return the Product(s) or entitlement to Service to us for a refund..."), US T&C.

(This applies to everything, not just Apple products.)

Re:european price markup - why?

[strictnein]

One of the reason a lot of things, especially electronics, are more expensive in europe is that both the euro and the pound are beating our U.S. dollar into submission at the moment.

That doesn't make sense at all. If your currency increases in value in relation to another country, their goods typically drop in price in your country, not increase.

Re:european price markup - why?

[davids-world.com]

well i applied the current exchange rate... we should be able to get a much better deal, BECAUSE euro and pound sterling are so strong. also, what really matters are exchange rates compared to asia, right? on the other hand, a significant percentage of the cost of electronic devices go into patent royalties. the actual hardware is relatively cheap afaik.

Re:european price markup - why?

[jratcliffe]

"One of the reason a lot of things, especially electronics, are more expensive in europe is that both the euro and the pound are beating our U.S. dollar into submission at the moment."

Actually, this would make things cheaper in Europe than the US. Think about it - if the pound is stronger, then it can buy more dollars, so things priced in dollars get cheaper.

Re:european price markup - why?

[Anonymous Coward]

One reason I heard is that retail salaries are a lot higher in Europe than in the U.S, which forces prices up.
I've also heard someone say that Europeans are simply willing to pay more for electronics.

Re:european price markup - why?

[JaredOfEuropa]

There are indeed import duties on many goods brought into the EC. Not sure if there is one on mp3 players.

Not that it matters... as someone else pointed out, we Europeans have gotten used to paying more than US citizens, so retailers will just enjoy higher margins on goods that are duty-free. In addition, many goods are protected against parallel imports (excepting personal use). Sometimes it is cheaper to import things from the US, even with shipping, import duty and sales tax added on (taxes are levied on the shipping costs as well, I might add). The other day I ordered something from the US because it was cheaper that way than in any of the shops in Europe... and the friggin' thing was made in Germany! Go figure...

Re:european price markup - why?

[Anonymous Coward]

well, i bought a canon 300D (the Digital Rebel) in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia (Low Yat Plaza rules!), during my holidays. Not only did I have fun haggling over the price, I also got the camera (with lens) for about 900 EUR, while it is still going for 1400 EUR here in Ireland.

(Ireland is rip-off country because the Irish love to pay high prices for bad service -- but buying that camera in Germany, I'd still have to shell out some 1200 bucks.)

Re:european price markup - why?

[Oddly_Drac]

"For example, in the UK at least, you can return anything you buy within 10 days of buying it, for full refund, even if you simply decide you don't like it anymore."

14 days. It's a standard contractual 'cooling off' period where you can suddenly decide you don't want it. However, collecting on that clause in the Sale of Goods Act is _extremely_ hard unless you have something heavy to bludgeon the store with. Woolworths, for example, decided that they didn't want to play in terms of computer games, DVDs and CDs. I tend to go around pointing out that signs taped to the cash desk don't actually invalidate statutory rights...

One little known clause is 'fitness of purpose'; anything you buy has to be fit for the purpose for which it was bought.

Of course, my favourite is the implied and statutory 12 month warranty. I've had many an argument over a limited time warranty before now.

However, this is all normally policed by Trading Standards, and they _really_ have their hands full dealing with internet purchases/scams.

BTW, the major cost increase in the UK compared with anywhere else is importation duties and the recognition of the UK market as a cash cow...

Re:european price markup - why?

[solarium_rider]

Even underwear???

because...

[nikster]

...they already sell like hotcakes?

Re:considerably tweaked? yes

[adzoox]

There are on the go playlists and better backlighting + a new game. 6.5 hours is NOT atrocius - it's not great, but I have no other means of carrying that much music in that small and conveiniant/efficient package... and playing breakout, solitare ;) + holding all of my programs that I use in my daily Apple Technical service

Go to colorware if you need a color or just buy a mini that already has good battery life and comes in colors.

Or you could just go the cheap route and by one of the 100's of different protective skins.

here we go again

[chegosaurus]

blah blah no ogg blah blah too expensive blah blah clever marketing blah blah my rio etc etc etc.

But before we degenerate into that, can somebody kindly explain how the "click wheel" is different from the wheel on the 3G iPod?

Re:here we go again

[sammy baby]

The "click-wheel" is essentially the wheel from previous designs of the iPod, with little clicky buttons at the 12, 3, 6, and 9 o'clock positions. So, make the dialing motion for the wheel controls, press down for the buttons. I've never used one, but the people I've met who have tried both say they like the click-wheel better, which would explain the switch.

Re:here we go again

[__aafkqj3628]

The buttons are integrated onto the wheel and they (including the 'select' button) requires a physical push down to select. I think that the design on how it works is also different (and less sensitive - a good thing).
This means that you can scroll and select in a single action without moving to the other buttons.

Re:here we go again

[Vollernurd]

It clicks.

Re:here we go again

[chegosaurus]

Cool, thanks. For all the iPod's much vaunted ergonomics, I've never felt those buttons were ideally positioned. This sounds like a good idea, but it's hardly enough to tempt me to upgrade!

Re:here we go again

[rjung2k]

I've never used one, but the people I've met who have tried both say they like the click-wheel better

Listen to them; the click wheel is every bit as great as folks say they are. I know several people who skipped the iPod 3G and went for the iPod mini instead, just because they thought the click wheel was a superior UI.

Re:here we go again

[sarcastro73]

I still don't understand why it's ergonomic to move my thumb in a circular motion to move the selection vertically. Shouldn't it be a vertical "Click Strip"?

Re:here we go again

[Kenshin]

Because it's far easier to move the thumb around in a continuous circular motion than it is to move the thumb down, lift it up to go back to the top, move it down, and so on...

Pick up something smooth in your hand, and try it.

Re:here we go again

[chegosaurus]

There's nothing better on Slashdot than being modded down as flamebait *and* being right!

Considerably tweaked?

[nmg196]

How is it "considerably" tweaked? It looks pretty much identical and few new features.

USB2 cable

[prewashedironman]

Interesting, both models now ship with USB2 cables as well as firewire. And free laser engraving for the time being. And, surprisingly for apple their both shipping in "2-4 days" in the UK and "1-2 days" in the USA. Very Exciting!

Re:USB2 cable

[transient]

Yeah, but they still won't engrave "Bad Motherfucker." Bastards.

Re:USB2 cable

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, Apple's language filter isn't perfect. It seems they will engrave "Bad Motherfucker." on your iPod (but not "Bad Motherfucker")

Re:USB2 cable

[halo1982]

Yeah, but they still won't engrave "Bad Motherfucker." Bastards.

Just take it to any jewelry store. They should be able to do it on the spot for $10-$20. Thats what I'm doing when I get my iPod mini.

Re:USB2 cable

[nuggetman]

Engraving has been free about as long as I can remember... they say it's a special but i dont remember it NOT being free

Re:USB2 cable

[vogelgesang]

Says on the Apple website that engraved iPods can't be returned. I wonder if that has anything to do with their offer for "free" engraving. Seems like they've had this offer going for a while now, at least a year. I understand why they can't be returned, but I find it curious that they're encouraging this so much.

I'm waiting for my engraved Mini to be shipped, which will be my third iPod in the past two years, so I'm not trying to defame Apple or the iPod. It's just a thought.

Putting a Pam III icon on the topic

[Lispy]

while there is a beautiful iPod icon is actually a bit weird, but hey, this is Slashdot.

Re:Putting a Pam III icon on the topic

[antic]

I can't remember, is the Pam III icon the one from before or after the breast reduction?

I know this is tenuous

[Will Fisher]

But stay with me.

If you have an ipod of whatever generation, then I highly recommend you get the winamp ipod plugin as made by yours truly.

<a href="http://mlipod.sf.net/">http://mlipod.sf.net/ </a>

Re:I know this is tenuous

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to burst your bubble, but 99% of iPod users must be using iTunes.

Good for those in that 1% however.

Re:I know this is tenuous

[Will Fisher]

link correction: http://mlipod.sf.net

Re:I know this is tenuous

[Anonymous Coward]

i do, winamp5 is the best player for windows.

Re:I know this is tenuous

[Anonymous Coward]

Only in cases where "the best" = "a"

iTunes spanks it in ease-of-use

Re:I know this is tenuous

[Anonymous Coward]

Winamp... wow that takes me back... memories of college when everyone was just starting to use mp3s... ah the good ol' days.

Re:I know this is tenuous

[Anonymous Coward]

And Winamp smacks it in terms of customizability, keyboard shortcuts, memory use (if you use the old style skins), performance, plug-ins, and format support.

And why the original poster was modded as a troll both times is beyond me when all he did was mention an open source plug-in that lets you use an iPod with an alternative to iTunes. Was it because he mentioned that he wrote it?

Re:I know this is tenuous

[Anonymous Coward]

Really? Wow. I had no idea I was so special.

I use iTunes to buy from the music store and to download songs to my iPod. But for just playing songs on my computer, I still use Winamp. *Way* smaller screen real estate usage.

From CmdrTaco-is-always-right dept.

[Anonymous Coward]

No wireless. Less space than a nomad. Lame.

OGG Vorbis, what does it take to get the support?

[coe]

Taken directly from apple's spec sheet for the new ipod:

--
Audio formats supported: AAC (16 to 320 Kbps), MP3 (32 to 320 Kbps), MP3 VBR, Audible, AIFF, Apple Lossless and WAV
--

I mean what does it take for us to get the OGG support into iPod? For 3 generations of this machine, one major target audiance of "switch" campaing has been unix users. We, the guys who support and now have started to love the new apple have begged for this support into iPod.

4th generation. And still no support. Lots of feedback sent, even on the official apple forums and nothing. Not even an official explanation why not.

How many generations this will take?

For example, I have over 110GB of music and other audio recorded in OGG format, rendering iPod totally useless for me. I did a quick "hey, whats your status" in my local university and situation was the same. iPod feels, looks and sounds too good to be true, everyone of us wants one. Expect for one big but.. where in the hell is the inhouse OGG support.

I know the problems with ARM processor inside iPod and lack of integer based OGG coded, but now that there is one (tremor) (http://www.xiph.org/ogg/vorbis/) and it's even in BSD license, I cant belive apple choose yet again to leave OGG support out of iPod.

Could someone please take a club and bash the ingorant iPod tech division to little pieces, since I and many like me, would pay huge sums for this support.

It could even be "silent" "no warranty" "not supported" type of deal, just could someone please answer why cant this one of the most advanced piece of modern consumer technology lack the most important feature..

OGG VORBIS - Support.

No dock w/ the 20GB

[eples]

Looks like the 20Gb is the new 15 - no dock.

Bought one anyway. And the dock separately for thirty somethin bucks.

Gapless playback?

[Anonymous Coward]

Can it now do gapless playback? If not, I still won't buy one. I'm thinking about getting a Rio Karma though.

Re:Gapless playback?

[kefa]

I doubt it. At first glance it doesn't look like the core of the iPod has been altered - a few buttons wired up differently, a new battery, and a slimmer case.

I heard that the limitation of gapless playback was because the decoding was done in hw and as a result gapless playback would require upgraded chips.

Anyway, the feature's not being preached from the Apple website so I presume not.

Champs Elysee is in Singapore????

[natd]

From the product page on Apple.com.au;

"you could fly from Sydney to Singapore and still have hours of listening time left over as you stroll the Champs Elysée."

I think the Australian 'localisation team' need to do better than a find and replace of 'New York' & 'Paris'...

Re:Champs Elysee is in Singapore????

[raider_red]

We've got one in Las Vegas, so why not Singapore?

Re:Champs Elysee is in Singapore????

[Kopretinka]

I guess the Oz-version battery life is so much better, you can in fact fly from Sydney to Singapore, continue to Paris (or Las Vegas, I guess?) and still have hours of listening time left. 8-)

No dock? No carry case? wtf?

[Tibor the Hun]

I love apple, and would love an iPod, but seeing as (in adittion to no dock or carry case!)they still don't have a replaceable battery I'm still not interested in plunking down 300 bucks.

I don't know how useful dock is, since I've never used an iPod, but it does seem like a kick in the pants not to include it. Carry cases get used all the time I'm sure, it's a shame those are excluded.

I think it's the battery that does it for me. I'd really like the ability to purchase another battery 2 years down the road and snap it in myself. (Much like I can with the propriatery battery for my digital camera)

When they solve that issue, they'll have my money.

Re:No dock? No carry case? wtf?

[jt23]

you CAN replace the batteries yourself -- for $30 - $50. http://www.ipodbattery.com/

Re:No dock? No carry case? wtf?

[Anonymous Coward]

They have solved this problem already. For $50 you call apple, they send you a prepaid postage package, and in 3 days you get your iPod back with a new battery installed. The case isn't meant to be opened by the user for a convienience factor.

You can also get the Belkin iPod Backup Battery kit, which plugs right into the bottom connector and allows for 12 more hours on four AA batteries. Coupled with the 12 hour battery life that the 4G iPod offers, that's a full 24 hours of music without a charge.

It also gets fully charged in 2 hours.

I have a 3G iPod and battery life is about seven to nine hours, depending on how often you switch songs, how long the songs are, what bitrate they are encoded at, how often you use the backlight, and if you use the equalizer.

Go buy an iPod now.

Re:No dock? No carry case? wtf?

[Schmitty81]

they still don't have a replaceable battery
Technically that's not true, the iPod battery is replaceable in all revisions, just because it's not "easy" to do doesn't mean it can't be done. I work in an apple service center, we do iPod batteries about once or twice a month. Truthfully replacing the battery is a simple issue, takes about 15 minutes at the most.

Re:No dock? No carry case? wtf?

[CaptainFlyingToaster]

You're not missing a whole lot by not getting the dock and carry case. The OEM carry case is a piece of crap - mine broke within weeks of getting it, it's butt-ugly, and you can't access the controls readily.

As for the dock, the line-out functionality is nice, but for most purposes the headphone-out jack will do.

Speck Products Flipstand is a nigh-bulletproof carry case that includes a "pseudo dock" that allows for docklike vertical syncing (less the line-out). Check it out here: http://www.speckproducts.com/newflipstand/

As for the battery, sites like PDASmart ( http://pdasmart.com/ipodpartscenter.htm ) sell battery replacement kits for the do-it-yourselfer, or you can use Apple's battery replacement service for about US$50 more.

Now that your objections have been nullifed, go out and buy one. Right now.

Re:No dock? No carry case? wtf?

[cocoamix]

I haven't used my dock since I got an eXo skin for mine. It's a pain in the ass to remove the case every time you want to recharge or sync, and very few cases accomodate the dock.

I don't miss using a dock at all, actually.

Re:No dock? No carry case? wtf?

[Anonymous Coward]

"The case isn't meant to be opened by the user for a convienience factor."

Yeah, it's so much more 'convenient' to ship your new ipod to Apple, and have them send you someone else's ipod back, with a new battery, than to have a little hatch with a screw, and the ability to replace the battery yourself.

Convenience factor your ass, you little marketing droid.

Re:No dock? No carry case? wtf?

[MachineShedFred]

The built in carry case is crap anyway, as it doesn't allow you to press the buttons or use the wheel. If you want a carrying case that doesn't suck, you'll have to buy it anyway. Think of it as one less piece of clutter...

Re:No dock? No carry case? wtf?

[Moofie]

Go buy a different product. Or learn how to operate a screwdriver to open the existing iPod. It's not rocket science.

Re:No dock? No carry case? wtf?

[Meowing]

I don't know how useful dock is, since I've never used an iPod, but it does seem like a kick in the pants not to include it. Carry cases get used all the time I'm sure, it's a shame those are excluded.

You're wouldn't be missing much. The dock is convenient to have as a place to store the iPod, but the only real feature it brings is a line out. In real life, it's not wildly useful since the dock is generally used next to the computer which is going to have its own line out and iTunes, and the iPod can't play while it's syncing or being used in disk mode anyway. The line out is a bit more useful if you use it with a dedicated charger instead of a computer-to-firewire connection, but then you have to move it to sync or use disk mode.

Apple's iPod case is fugly, and it's not even very useful unless you plan on using the wired remote, because it covers up the controls.

I don't think I've used the wired remote, ever. It only brings out partial functionality, you still need to use the front panel for some things.

As others already mentioned, you can replace the battery yourself if you take reasonable care.

Re:No dock? No carry case? wtf?

[psyconaut]

Are you aware that if your battery is FUBAR after 2 years, you ship the unit back to Apple with US$99 and they send you a new iPod?

http://www.apple.com/support/ipod/service/batter y. html

-psy

wake up

[Chep]

EVERYBODY's doing it. iRobot. Apple. Dell. Younameit.

We need a Structural Funds-subsided pricewatch.eu.int.

Re:wake up

[Anonymous Coward]

... IRobot ?

Re:wake up

[Chep]

Yep. Compare the price of a Roomba in the US, and the price of a Roomba in Germany or Switzerland.

Re:OGG Vorbis, what does it take to get the suppor

[Anonymous Coward]

They prolly figure that once the OGG VORBIS crowd gets this format support in iPods, some other crowd will come up with another standard and beg for it to be included too...

They cannot let the first domino fall!

Re:considerably tweaked?

[Blondie-Wan]

The "atrocious battery life that should have been dealt with years ago" wasn't atrocious years ago; it was actually considered quite good, in fact (though those first- and second-gen iPods did have longer battery life than the third gen).

What's with your apparent assumption earphone color affects their quality?

Re:Still not such a great deal

[OmniVector]

I think i've had my ipod for like 2 or 3 years. I forgot. It was whenever the first $300 windows versions starting hitting the market. Anyways, my battery life is hardly any worse than when i bought it. Two brothers make a half-truth documentary and complain they couldn't figure out how to replace the battery themselves go and start that video/website (which did they mention they turned around and bought another $400 iPod right after?) which feeds the trolls for the next few years. Look, go take a peek at ipodbattery.com. For an operation you have to do once ever 2-3 (or maybe even MORE) years, i think holding off just because of a non replacable battery is stupid. i bet you'd get a new ipod just because's better within that span of time anyways, then ebay it for an extra $150 off your new iPod.

Re:battery

[Vollernurd]

It most certainly is and all you need is a small screwdriver (or guitar plectrum if you don't want to scratch it).

See iPod Battery.com for more info.

Man!

[caldroun]

I just got a 15g for my Wife for her birthday earlier this month.

Damn you Jobs!
(Ok... the one I got is still cool, though)

Re:Man!

[AragornSonOfArathorn]

I'm in the same boat. I got a 15GB iPod about 10 days ago because of the Cram and Jam promotion (the promo is only for ppl who qualify for the edu discount). I'm going to call my local Apple store (where I bought it, with my new iBook... mmm, iBook...) and see if they'll let me trade it in for the new 20GB, which is the same price.

Does "Cram and Jam" sound like a Jackie Treehorn production, or is it just me? ;)

Re:Man!

[Anonymous Coward]

What is the Apple policy in these types of situations? I just got a 20GB iPod about 2 weeks ago. I thought I heard a while back that Apple has some sort of price guarantee? Guess you have to call and ask.

Re:Man!

[OS24Ever]

Sometimes statements like these crack me up. Did she suddenly have a need for storing 5 more gig of music? ;)

Re:Man!

[dema]

Watch your inbox. Apple often upgrades orders when they release new product. They gave everyone who bought a mac with 10.2 an upgrade to 10.3 if the mac was purchased up to 3 months before 10.3's release. I noticed one post somewhere on this article mentioning a free upgrade.

Re:Man!

[AragornSonOfArathorn]

Yep, they'll let me exchange my 3rd gen 15GB for the 4th gen 20GB.

<mr burns>EXCELLENT</mr burns> :)

Re:Man!

[Anonymous Coward]

grrrrrrrrr, I just one Wendesday, I heard of the new ones coming out, but I couldnt wait, I'm just upset at the new battery life, since I listen to it for a half a hour and its low already, damn you Jobs again!!!

Re:Man!

[AragornSonOfArathorn]

You can get it upgraded for free since you just got it. Call Apple.

Re:Man!

[Anonymous Coward]

It's obviously your wife's fault for being born on the wrong day.

Re:Man!

[caldroun]

I called the local apple store, and they said exchanges are fine but a restocking fee of 10% will apply. Who is exchanging yours for free?

Re:Man!

[AragornSonOfArathorn]

The Apple Store in the Southdale Mall in Minneapolis. They said nothing about a restocking fee. I guess I'll find out when I go tonight...

Re:Man!

[caldroun]

Interesting. Post back here after your exchange if you dont mind... I am interested to find out.

Re:Man!

[AragornSonOfArathorn]

There seems to be some confusion at my local Apple store. They do not have the new iPods in stock, contrary to what I was told on the phone. They said I could exchange it for the 3G 20GB, which they still had in stock, but I'd have to pay a $30 restocking fee on my 15GB iPod since it is not defective. However, the remaing stock of 15GB iPods is being sold for $249 (or $229 with edu discount). So, they gave me back the difference in price from before. I get the edu discount, so I paid $269 last week, so they gave me back $40 (+ tax).

I'd have liked to have gotten the 4G 20GB, but $30 for a 15GB iPod is still a damn good deal :-) ($229 - $200 Cram and Jam rebate)

Re:Man!

[AragornSonOfArathorn]

I think if its within 14 days, they'll do a price match. So, you might get $100 back.

Re:Man!

[djeaux]

I just got a 15g for my Wife for her birthday earlier this month.

Excellent! I haven't been able to get $25 for mine!

Re:Still not such a great deal

[yumyum]

seeing as they still don't have a replaceable battery

I have a Gen 1 iPod that I've used pretty much daily. Excellent device, but the battery is starting to go. Thought about retiring it and buying a new model, but then I Googled for a replacement battery and found one for $30. Comes with a clear and concise user's manual -- see here. From the manual, looks pretty easy to drop in a new one, so I went ahead and ordered one.

Re:battery

[Neduz]

Of course, Apple wants you to pay them to do it: http://www.apple.com/batteries/replacements.html. But if your iPod is out of warranty, and you're a DIY guy, you can try to replace it yourself: http://www.ipodbattery.com/.

Re:considerably tweaked?

[clarkcox3]

Bring on the decent player that also has decent (IE not white . . . )

Yes, 'cause as we all know, the color of the earphones affects how they sound.

or canal phones at a preferance. [sic]

In-Ear earphones. Besides, it's just a standard headphone jack, you can plug in any pair of headphones you want.

I, Pod

[ackthpt]

The story of a new generation of personal music players which takes over peoples brains, until tough cop Will Smith shuts them all down.

Rated [R] for "Rip Off"

Where is the radio (AM/FM)?

[tc1970]

Too bad...there is still no radio on the new iPod. I refuse to buy any portable music device without built-in radio. Remember the black out from last year? I think AM/FM is a must-have life-saving feature. Mr. Job, are you listening? I wonder how many of you agree?

Re:Where is the radio (AM/FM)?

[MasonMcD]

So there's the hordes at /. that think the recording industry is the whore of Babylon and Apple needs to support vorbis, but dammit, give us our Clear Channel!

I see. Well, we all need our daily dose of Britney and Limbaugh, I guess.

Re:Where is the radio (AM/FM)?

[2nd Post!]

Hmm, 3 million people don't seem to agree with you, sorry :)

Re:Where is the radio (AM/FM)?

[dogmatixpsych]

And 3 million people are always right...

Re:Where is the radio (AM/FM)?

[jcostantino]

Well, compared to a handful of people, yes.

Re:Where is the radio (AM/FM)?

[amichalo]

I don't agree that an AM/FM radio is a requirement.

In fact, I wouldn't want a device that included a radio tuner, or for that matter, voice recording and image viewing capabilities. That is the road that cell phone manufacturers went down with the camera phone, MP3 playback, SMS messaging and all that. To some it is a necessity, but not for me.

The iPod is a tool for transporting and listening to high quality music of your choosing, on demand. The ability to listen to AM/FM radio runs counter to this purpose.

I understand some people *really* need a radio, or the ability to record their own voice, or some other feature. Luckily, there is a huge 3rd party industry with high quality products from comapnies like Griffin Technologies that address these concerns wth add-ons.

Re:Where is the radio (AM/FM)?

[lavar78]

Exactly. I haven't listened to the radio once since I got my first iPod. I don't miss it one bit. If I ever need a radio for emergency purposes, I'll use the one in my car.

Re:Where is the radio (AM/FM)?

[Pendersempai]

I got an iPod specifically so I wouldn't have to listen to the radio. Radio reception and mp3 playback don't complement one another at all.

Re:Where is the radio (AM/FM)?

[Hitchcock_Blonde]

Will this never cease?! Obviously, you're missing the whole point of an iPod. iPods are for those that want to choose the music they listen to, not to have someone else choose it for them.

Re:Where is the radio (AM/FM)?

[at_slashdot]

The iPod is a tool for transporting and listening to high quality music of your choosing, on demand. The ability to listen to AM/FM radio runs counter to this purpose.
I don't agree. iPod is a device for listening music. Period. Why impose artificial delimitations? It would be nice if you can channel music for other source not only its own harddrive withouth make it heavier and without complicating the interface too much.

Re:Where is the radio (AM/FM)?

[Tropator]

Of course the fact that you can use a calendar and play games with the iPod, purposed to play music, must be hard to accept then for you. Oh no, iPod on the "road that cell phones" go ?

a Tuner is indispensable to me, if it was only to get updates from news/sports events etc. The iRiver company has some nice models with tuners. Still all those toys remain pricey..

Re:Where is the radio (AM/FM)?

[Moofie]

No, but 3 million more people bought iPods than the mp3 player you designed. Maybe they're on to something.

Re:Where is the radio (AM/FM)?

[dogmatixpsych]

"No, but 3 million more people bought iPods than the mp3 player you designed. Maybe they're on to something."

I love the iPod (although I don't own one). If I were to buy a portable music player I'd buy an iPod. I was just making a purely logical point. Nothing more.

Re:Where is the radio (AM/FM)?

[Moofie]

Way to go, Captain Obvious.

Re:Where is the radio (AM/FM)?

[Merk]

A radio? Are you serious? The whole reason I like iPods and the like is that they're a source of music *without* the annoying DJs and incessant ads.

I can't honestly remember the last time I listened to the radio. It would have to be at least 6 months ago.

Look, here's how portable music worked. First there were portable radios, then portable tape players (with radios), then the "walkman", integrating those two, then came portable CD players, then finally portable MP3 players. Each one of those has become better and better at providing music the way you want it.

As for emergencies, yeah, a radio that runs on batteries is great. But I don't expect my portable MP3 player to be a useful tool for emergencies. I'm quite happy having a standalone radio, just like I don't need to have a flashlight built into my cell phone.

If someone were to combine technologies, I'd much prefer improved PDA capabilities in my iPod, rather than a radio.

Maybe it's just me, but the idea of wanting a radio built into an iPod is as silly as wanting a buggy whip built into a remote car door unlocker. Sure, if there were a sudden severe gas shortage horses would become viable again, and a buggy whip could come in handy... but I, for one, am happy to leave the buggy whip behind.

P.S. his name is Steve Jobs.

Re:Where is the radio (AM/FM)?

[bmantz65]

What if I want to listen to a segment of a local sports talk show on AM and then switch over to my MP3's? Be handy for me with one device instead of two.

Re:Where is the radio (AM/FM)?

[Yaztromo]

What -- you can't afford a $5 FM radio?

I was in my car when the power went out last August -- was actually just pulling out of a car wash when it hit (thank goodness I didn't get there 30 seconds later...). I actually thought my antenna was broken off when I got out, as that's when the power went out and nearly all the radio stations went off the air.

Radio was my lifeline as well -- and I didn't even onw an iPod then. I owned -- a portable radio! What a concept!

If you really want to be ready, do what I did -- I have a rechargeable flashlight/radio combination, with in-wall, solar, and dynamo charging all built into one unit. Cost me less than $50 CDN. I've had it for several years, and while the solar charging and dynamo charging sucks for the flashlight portion, both are excellent when used for the radio portion. Heck, the thing even allows yo to install alkeline batteries for those times when the built-in rechargable battery goes kaput, and you don't feel like winding it up again.

(Going off topic here, but I also have a 450 Amp portable power pack and a DC/AC inverter. The first night the power went out, my apartment was the only one with the lights on. Once in a while I'd see faces peering my way -- having a 300W halogen floor lamp glowing up the entire blackened neighbourhood certainly got some people attention. I can only guess what they must have been thinking. Myself, I was thinking how much I would have liked to have had a gas powered generator on my balcony. Oh well -- something to add to my "want" list :) ).

Brad BARCLAY

thanks to apple

[nighty5]

for bringing their products to the masses.

Now its cool to own mac stuff, and not as geeky. When im podding down the street I get stopped by common folk, conversations are struck and I'm meeting new people all from a little white music device.

"oh I want one of those, whats yours" - is all thats said until a conversation is struck.

I have a 3rd gen ipod, and very happy with it. I wont bother with a mini, or the 4th because mine is going great guns.

Some would say expensive, but if they can charge the market and get away with it to get the best margin then goodluck to them.

Re:thanks to apple

[puto]

I own an powerbook, and an Ipod. And various pc's with a hodge podge of Os's. And trust me I am not an apple dfany boy.

But I work with plenty, and almost married a girl with an apple centric family. Who on a whim I gave an XP pc(now they love surfing the net on it).

However, I can say it has never been considered geeky to own apple stuff. It has always been trendy, that is how apple has marketed its stuff for years. Why you see so many people sitting at starbucks drinking 5 dollar hot colored waters with their macs. Cause it is cool.

I live my powerbook, it is what i do a great deal of work on. As well as my Dell inspiron, depends on what mood I am, and both perform equally well..

As for getting stop by "common folk". Well what are common folk, the unwashed? The un appled? There is an elitist aitude with many apple users I do not like.

And no offense. But I meet people without carrying my gadgets around. I call it a " I SMILE"

Puto

Re:thanks to apple

[lidocaineus]

Wow, it doesn't get more disgustingly gushing and full of turf that your post, which doesn't seem to make any kind of point... and I own tons of apple gear.

Re:thanks to apple

[Reverant]

When im podding down the street I get stopped by common folk

-snip-

"oh I want one of those..."

I wouldn't be surprised if the "...so hand it over or feel the pain that stabs at the center of your heart" encounters increase even more. Wear black generic earphones when in public!

Re:thanks to apple

[meringuoid]

When im podding down the street I get stopped by common folk, conversations are struck and I'm meeting new people all from a little white music device. "oh I want one of those, whats yours"

You what?

Sorry, but mine (iRiver not iPod) is in my bag with cables running around my back out of sight to control panel on my belt under my T-shirt, from which nondescript earphones run to my head. Nothing visible to indicate anything other than a £20 Walkman.

I do not want every nimrod on the street to know that I'm carrying around a very portable, very expensive electronic item. Some of them might indeed 'want one of those'. I don't plan to supply them.

iPod vs iRiver

[Anonymous Coward]

Anybody know how these compare to the new iRiver 20 & 40 Gig devices?

Re:That's Great..

[Blondie-Wan]

Cut that price in half, and it'll be below Apple's cost to make it, so don't hold your breath waiting for it to happen anytime soon.

demand from hundreds of thousands of people.

[sammy baby]

Could someone please take a club and bash the ingorant iPod tech division to little pieces, since I and many like me, would pay huge sums for this support.

Sure.

20 gigs: $299
40 gigs: $399
15 gigs with Ogg support: $499

I mean, come on. What do you really mean by "huge?" They obviously don't feel that the cost of integrating the feature would be worth the effort. And when I think about it, I can't blame them: hell, I'm willing to bet that they wouldn't have included mp3 support if it wasn't for the fact that the installed base made that the "cost of entry" for the device to the market. Otherwise, they'd just have gone with AAC (and later, ALC).

Oh, and by the way: what do you mean by "many like you?"

For the first time, Apple sold more iPods in a quarter than it did Macs--and Apple CEO Steve Jobs is happy about it. "We feel great," Jobs told the New York Times. "We sold a lot of Macs, but we've sold more iPods in the quarter than all the Macs put together." As reported by MacMinute Wednesday, Apple sold a record 807,000 iPods in the quarter, a more than 900 percent increase from the period a year earlier.
- MacMinute

Somehow, I kinda doubt your conception of "many" jibes with theirs.

Re:demand from hundreds of thousands of people.

[GeckoX]

Nice randomly inflated guess at a possible price point for implementing ogg support. Unlike all of the other proprietary formats, there are no royalties to be paid to vorbis just to support ogg, and thus the cost would be a one-time development of an implementation that would run on the iPod. And, if I'm not mistaken there is already an implementation somewhere on vorbis' site for ARM processors.

Re:demand from hundreds of thousands of people.

[ballpoint]

MP3 support just the "cost of entry" ?
If they hadn't offred MP3 support, I guess they would have sold only 10%.

I'm very curious, if you'd be able to inspect the contents of all iPodii in use, what the ratio of MP3 to AAC would be. I'd be flabberghasted if it would be below 400%. My ratio is infinity - there is not a single AAC file on my iPod.

Re:demand from hundreds of thousands of people.

[sammy baby]

The "randomly inflated guess" wasn't a guess - it was a joke. I was playing off the poster's claim that he would pay "huge sums" for OGG support.
Next time, I'll make sure to use <humor> tags.

Re:demand from hundreds of thousands of people.

[amichalo]

I'm very curious, if you'd be able to inspect the contents of all iPodii in use, what the ratio of MP3 to AAC would be. I'd be flabberghasted if it would be below 400%. My ratio is infinity - there is not a single AAC file on my iPod.

Here's my single data point to counter yours:
Not only do I not have a single MP3 on my iPod, but I only have 20% of my 5000 song collection as MP3 and they are the songs I can't find on iTMS or only want for a single play (ie dance music).

This is just to say that though you may think my choice of audio format odd, I think the same of yours.

Re:demand from hundreds of thousands of people.

[GeckoX]

You have 4000 or so songs purchased off of iTMS?
You've dropped like $4g in the past year or so on proprietary format music files?

Wow. That's really all I can say is wow.

Re:demand from hundreds of thousands of people.

[Anonymous Coward]

In addition to development costs there are support costs. If there was Ogg Vorbis support, then there would be people calling AppleCare to ask questions about it, etc. There's also additional testing costs -- not just initial costs, but maintenance costs as that's another feature that needs to be verified as working for every future revision, etc.

Re:demand from hundreds of thousands of people.

[sammy baby]

I'm with you on that, actually. My point was that AAC makes Apple money (in a sense), because it's the file format iTunes uses, and that further drives iPod sales. If mp3 wasn't already deeply entrenched, they needn't have bothered with it.

Re:demand from hundreds of thousands of people.

[amichalo]

I have purchased 600 songs from iTMS (and do not regret a penny of it). The addtional 3400 are a ripping of my CD collection to AAC.

Re:demand from hundreds of thousands of people.

[Anonymous Coward]

You're one of those retards who doesn't understand that you can make your own AAC files, then?

No kidding.

[Anonymous Coward]

Until I read your post, I didn't realize iPods had that problem. I will pitch in with some praise for the Karma though. It is *definitely* able to play back consecutive tracks without a gap, and I've been extremely pleased with it in just about every respect. I've used it every day for about six months now, averaging about eight hours a day (I have a New York City commute and I use it at the office), and there hasn't been any degradation of battery life.

The one thing you'll have to watch out for is this nasty tendency of the Karmas to suffer from drive crashes (google "Karma drive crash"), but strangely enough, this is easily remedied by whacking the thing against the heel of your hand until it turns off. When it powers back up, it'll be fine. Seriously.

Also new from Apple

[rh005]

the infamous iYoYo

Re:Also new from Apple

[alex_ware]

and the iToliet http://www.electric-chicken.co.uk

Is my 3G 20G iPod now abandoned?

[swb]

That's kind of my biggest worry about it; that it will just become abandoned and not get any feature enhancements or maybe even any bug fixes. It was a gift, so the money factor doesn't really matter to me, but it's pretty bound to Apple's software and support for longevity.

Re:Is my 3G 20G iPod now abandoned?

[jcostantino]

My 5 gb 1st gen iPod (later upgraded to a 10 gb HD) is still supported just fine, in fact I played music on my way to work this morning!

It even worked in spite of Apple announcing new iPods!

Re:OGG Vorbis, what does it take to get the suppor

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know, maybe their couple of dozen man hours to hack some codec into their system isn't worth the three people who might actually buy it?

Re:Considerably tweaked?

[Eric_Cartman_South_P]

THE LIST:

-50% more battery
-Removal of 4 buttons with a single click wheel like the iPod mini
-A little thinner
-Better menu UI design
-Shuffle songs feature
-Faster or slower e-book reading by 25% without changing the readers voice pitch
-Price drop

Remember, it's hard to improve on something many people think is perfect (the sales #'s agree with that statement). But it's nice to see the company keep-on-truckin' and improve things. Some people might bitch about "thinner" being only 1 mm, but holy SHIT! At least they are trying! Better then 1 mm thicker!

Re:considerably tweaked?

[iamacat]

What are you doing to need more than 6-8hours battery life that can not be solved with a regular or car charger? I can not imagine listening to so much music or audiobooks in one shot. If anything, I can listen to iPod longer than a regular mp3 player because I can choose from my whole library.

Re:They cost only $80

[Anonymous Coward]

Heh, no they don't.

Life-saving feature?

[NormanEinstein]

Having a built-in radio receiver would be nice, but I'd hardly call it a "must-have, life-saving" feature.

Maybe you should ask Steve Jobs to include a weeks dry rations and heart defibrillator too.

Re:Life-saving feature?

[tc1970]

Yes, I do consider radio is as important as the POTS. During last year's Black-Out, they were about the only things that worked. Radio stations kept people informed when nothing else did during that time. Trust me, it is a "life-saving" feature for some people (of course, in a different sense).

Re:Life-saving feature?

[Anonymous Coward]

and heart defibrillator too.

What did you think the extra battery power was for? And if you dip the corner in vitamin supplements, it works almost as well as your towel.

Re:Life-saving feature?

[commodoresloat]

Yes, I do consider radio is as important as the POTS.

Notice, the iPod doesn't have support for POTS either.

A Player exists... But your not going to like it..

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

I have heard of something that plays OGG out of the box....

Nokia N-Gage.

Sorry to get your hopes up...

I'll wait for my 60GB

[foofie]

I'm assuming this will be coming soon. Then I'll upgrade my 30GB model that I bought for $500 for a model with twice the capacity and the same price. Thats not bad at all. And yes, I do need that much capacity.

Selling Like Hotcakes?

[rogerborn]

This expression is used continually everywhere to describe run away success in sales, popularity, etc. It was used here in this thread at least a dozen times when talking about the fantastic sales of the iPods.

I do not understand this? Who are these hotcake vendors? Where are they selling these hotcakes everyone talks about being so popular? Who buys these hotcakes anyway?

I certainly am not interested in buying hotcakes. They probably aren't Atkins friendly anyway. In fact, they don't sound so appetizing to me. Do they come with syrup? Are they sold with powdered sugar coating? Or fruit toppings? How about with butter or creamc heese?

Sounds like the popular pancakes that used to be sold in Moscow.

Surely this isn't where the term "selling like hotcakes" comes from, right?

How about we all change this old fashioned, outdated and silly phrase!

Lets all being using the term "Selling Like iPods!" instead. . .

Roger Born
writing.borngraphics.com
"Out of my mind. Back in five minutes."

Re:Selling Like Hotcakes?

[fantom2000]

ipods don't smell like hotcakes...

Re:Selling Like Hotcakes?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well at least "selling like hotcakes" is something that we can comprehend by modern standards. A lot of phrases like "don't look a gifthorse in the mouth" are lost on 90% of people that use the expression.

And while something like "hotcakes" might not seem special here in America, there are many places in the world where you can get EXCELLENT cakes and sweets from street vendors and bakeries.

Re:Selling Like Hotcakes?

[Anonymous Coward]

I am fascinated by your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Re:Selling Like Hotcakes?

[sootman]

In his biography, Lee Iacocca mentions in 1964/65, when the Mustang was introduced and doing very well (over 400k sold in the first 12 months) he saw a sign in a diner window that said "Our hotcakes are selling like Mustangs!"

Re:Selling Like Hotcakes?

[Anonymous Coward]

I used to work in a retail store. Any time Slim Fast went on sale[1]the stack of cases was mobbed by customers. So we use "sells like Slim Fast".

[1] which brings up another question. Why is it called "on sale" ? Surely it was _for_ sale before; I would think "on" should have the same meaning. Perhaps it's just short for "on sale at reduced price".

Re:Selling Like Hotcakes?

[Anonymous Coward]

well, if you dunk 'em in maple syrup, the sure do.

Re:Selling Like Hotcakes?

[rogerborn]

Dear Anon:

Subscription is free. But you must click on the website URL to get a continued subscription. A ponderous task, I know.

Clicking again from time to time will allow you to see the ever changing content, where less popular links are dropped and new, hopefully more enjoyable ones are added.

Since my site is for Critical Thinking, it does take some serious skull-sweat to enjoy all those excellent links, stories and diversions.

As of now, consider yourself a life-time subscriber to the venerable "Best Critical Thought On The Web."

Regards,
Roger Born
writing.borngraphics.com
Sorry, no refunds.

Re:OGG Vorbis, what does it take to get the suppor

[BasilBrush]

What's it going to take for you to abandon an obscure format and switch to AAC? After 3 generations it should be pretty obvious mountain isn't going to move to Mohammed. A couple of dozen people requesting OGG support just isn't going to make it happen.

60gb = no stock!

[kefa]

And what happened to the 60gb version? I thought Apple had signed a deal with hitachi/toshiba (or whoever it was)!

Re:60gb = no stock!

[Echnin]

They're probably just not ready yet. Apple has always, AFAIK, had 3 models, and obviously there's now just a free space for a 60 GB. Oh, and Apple uses Toshiba for the big iPods, and Hitachi for the small ones. Just to clear that up.

Re:60gb = no stock!

[System.out.println()]

When they were first introduced, the iPod had only a 5 GB model. (And since it had no wireless, it was lame) ;) That said, it's probably correct that they're going to put the 60gb model up there at $499.

Re:60gb = no stock!

[PsychoSpunk]

Yes, the number of iPod models offered has always been 3 for sufficiently large values of 1 (5GB first gen) or 2 (5GB and 10GB first gen), or sufficiently small values of 4 (4GB mini and 15/20/40GB third gen). Oh, and chocolate rations are up.

Re:60gb = no stock!

[Anonymous Coward]

War is Peace!

Ignorance is Strength!

I find your post double-plus good!

Re:OGG Vorbis, what does it take to get the suppor

[chegosaurus]

I used to feel the same. Finally I admitted I'd made the wrong choice, re-ripped as VBR mp3s, got an iPod and never looked back.

It's not the first time (and won't be the last) that I'd backed the wrong horse. For instance, I preferred the Amiga to the PC, but I lost out there too. Market forces meant that I either stayed back with my little minority interest and my politics, or I (begrudgingly at first) followed the herd.

I held out for a good while for ogg support, now I've had 9 months of happy iPodding and I couldn't care less. I really don't see the benefit of vorbis over decent bitrate VBR. I also don't think 95% of the people who've bought iPods have any idea at all what ogg, flac, aiff, audible and so on are. /.ers tend to overestimate the real world impact of their pet technologies.

Whenever I see the spec, though, I always wonder how many people are carrying round an iPod full of WAVs...

Apple are upgrading existing orders

[gataylor]

My fiance ordered a 20GB iPod for me on Friday (through Apple's online UK store). Apple just sent her an email saying:

Today Apple announced an exciting new generation of iPods!
We have automatically upgraded your 20GB iPod to the new 40GB iPod, at no additional cost and added the iPod Carrying Case, Wired Remote and Earphones (which are no longer included with the new 40GB iPod) free of charge.

Kudos to Apple for doing this!

Geoff

Re:Apple are upgrading existing orders

[radionotme]

Kudos indeed - and I notice that few people seem to have picked up on the fact that the remote no longer comes with the 40GB one, another of the cost-cutting measures to enable dropping the price point by $100?

Re:Apple are upgrading existing orders

[archen]

Apple is well known for doing this. Not so long ago people who bought a Mac with OSX 10.2 got an upgrade to 10.3 if they had purchaced one within 3 months of the new OS upgrade. My iBook had a defect with the logic board and Apple just replaced it for free - 10 months after the warrenty expired. They payed for all shipping and handling and expenses. They also offered to upgrade my CD/DVD drive but I already had the newer version. Try getting THAT kind of service from Dell.

Re:Apple are upgrading existing orders

[jgs]

I notice that few people seem to have picked up on the fact that the remote no longer comes with the 40GB one, another of the cost-cutting measures

Good catch, I hadn't. OTOH, folks I know who have 3G iPods tell me they generally don't use their remotes much or at all. I have a 1G iPod and haven't ever felt the lack of the remote. So, limited evidence suggests that maybe this was a good decision on Apple's part -- cut cost by unbundling a feature few people use. Too bad they don't sell the remote sans earbuds, though.

Re:Apple are upgrading existing orders

[Anonymous Coward]

That's Apple's SoP. Anytime you buy a product just before the intro of a newer shipping product, they automatically upgrade the item without costs. It's a bit rare these days, though since they often announce things that ship weeks later. In the case of the OS, you also get a coupon for a free upgrade if your Mac or OS X purchase is within 30 days.

Customer satisfaction. It's the reason why I stick with Apple. Can't say the same with the hell I went through with Gateway and Dell.

Re:Apple are upgrading existing orders

[/dev/trash]

Well hey, if I paid as much as you do for an Apple, I'd expect to have things fixed and upgraded for free.

Re:Apple are upgrading existing orders

[nordicfrost]

Long story (happy ending): I ordered a Apple keyboard, it arrived after 4 days. I noticed it had a crooked spacebar keu + I really didn't like the feel of the keyboard. I told them what the problem was, and they sent a new KB, + an over night pickup package for the broken one. The KB arrived, and it was an US model. Now, since I live in Norway, we use all kinds of crazy characters like Æ, Ø and Å. I called Apple again, they were sincerely embarrased to have made such a mistake and sent a new keyboard. Is arrived the news day (which is REALLY remarkable here in Norway. It seems that "next day" is really "nexy day (I FEEL like putting it in the mail)" along with thereturn package. Put they screwed up again and sent the old model. But I tested it and liked it. So I called Apple again. I told them what happened and the woman said: oh no! I'm so sorry! I'll send you a new one. But I said; listen why don't you send a little reimbursement instead? she said what kind of reimburesent? I: I kinda, you know... ...like that aplle bluetooth mouse of yours.... Could I get a rebate? She: I see. Ok, 'll put that on you order list. But no rebate. Me: WHAT? She I'll throw it in for free since we screwd up. Me ... (stunned by the discovery of true customer service.)

Re:Apple are upgrading existing orders

[g0at]

...and added the iPod Carrying Case, Wired Remote and Earphones (which are no longer included with the new 40GB iPod)...

You mean they don't even include earphones anymore?

-ben

Re:Apple are upgrading existing orders

[Anonymous Coward]

They include the basic Earphones, not the in-ear ety-style ones.

Re:OGG Vorbis, what does it take to get the suppor

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's what it takes to get OGG into the iPod: ACTUAL MARKET PENETRATION. Like it or not, OGG is the realm of Linux/anime/audio geeks and/or open-source zealots (categories may overlap)--this market is tiny compared to the vast majority of iPod buyers. Yes, they might get money from selling to you, but I'm sure a cost/benefit analysis has been done, and it comes out saying the cost of adding OGG support doesn't justify the benefit. The general public knows what MP3 is, and that's the population buying this device. Really, MP3 is all they know; most have no concept of lossy encoding, much less other formats, even other formats the iPod supports.

Besides, you could just install Linux on it, you crazy, lovable Slashdot scamp, you. OGG playback at about 80% of realtime. Go help them out! Because, let's face it, the kind of people who'd install Linux on their iPod are the kind of people who have OGGs. I'm not either of those categories, and my iPod suits me just fine.

Re:OGG Vorbis, what does it take to get the suppor

[Anonymous Coward]

If Ogg means that much to you, just buy the iRiver H120 or the Rio Karma.

They do sell cheaper iPods!

[YouHaveSnail]

They don't sell one for $200, but they do sell one for $249. It's absolutely tiny, weighs nothing, and comes in five colors.

And yes, it is selling like hotcakes.

As far as why they're not selling a 15 gig white iPod, I'm sure there are a few reasons:

- 15 gig drives probably cost about the same as 20 gig drives.
- Offering two products which are very close in features tends to confuse the market.
- A 15 gig model that was much cheaper than the current 20 gig version would probably undercut the mini's market.

If you're so price-sensitive that you can't spring for the extra $49 that a mini would cost you, then probably:

- You shouldn't be spending money on a portable music player anyway.
- You should check out eBay.
- You might want to take a look at some cheaper knockoff devices.

Re:They do sell cheaper iPods!

[Qamelian]

Pointing to Creative's Nomad line as iPod knockoffs is far from accurate. In terms of quality and meaningful features, the Nomad blows an iPod out of the water everytime. My first MP3 player was an iPod. I was disappointed in the quality of almost every aspect of the unit. The case felt cheap, the sound quality was awful (IMO), and the controls just didn't feel comfortable. I demoed a Nomad Zen at a local shop and returned the iPod a couple of hours later. The Zen costs significantly less and offers much higer quality sound and a more significant feature set (again IMO). For the quality you get, the iPod is drastically over-priced. h

Re:They do sell cheaper iPods!

[YouHaveSnail]

Pointing to Creative's Nomad line as iPod knockoffs is far from accurate.

Whatever you think of the quality of either iPod or Creative's Zen Touch, it's hard to debate that the Zen Touch is a "cheaper knockoff" of the iPod. It's obviously cheaper (i.e. less expensive) and a look at it's picture shows clearly that it's a knockoff, (i.e a copy of something popular). The UI as depicted looks quite like that of the iPod, and the form is about the same. Really, the only thing it appears to be missing is Apple's scroll wheel interface, and Apple probably has a patent on that.

So if you prefer the phrase "uncostly imitation" to "cheaper knockoff," that's fine with me.

But heck, the Zen can't even play AAC files! You can't use it with the world's most popular online music store! And it's not even all that much less expensive. I think I'll stick with "cheaper knockoff," thanks.

Re:They do sell cheaper iPods!

[Qamelian]

Been there...after hours of searching found a total of 3 artists that I like. Lots of messages telling me that the artist I was looking for couldn't be found though.

I'll stick to buying CDs. At least the local stores can order in the stuff I want when the online music stores don't have it. And I can rip them myself in a non-DRM hindered format. I like that.

Rounded corners

[Jouni]

... so no more iPod killings, I reckon. :)

Jouni

New software with "old" iPods?

[Kurt Granroth]

I haven't had an iPod long enough to know: does the software for a new generation ever propogate back to the previous generation? I have a 3G iPod and am looking longingly at "Shuffle Songs" option at the top-level menu.

Basically, I listen to a lot of songs and audiobooks on my iPod. I find it necessary to "shuffle" my songs since the iPod won't honor any sort of iTunes playlist order.. but I don't want my audiobooks shuffled at all (skipping from chapter 5 to 19 and back to 13 isn't as fun as it sounds). Having a setting right on the top menu would be too handy.

So do these features ever propagate back or is my 3G software likely to never change again?

Re:New software with "old" iPods?

[foofie]

They have never done it in the past, so I doubt it.

haha loser

[Anonymous Coward]

hahaha you ripped your entire collection in a format that hardly anyone uses and now your screwed. Looooooooseeeeerrrrr

Reverse flame?

[jcostantino]

Wow... I... uh... wow! I'm sort of speechless now :) I do refresh my 1337 gr4mm4r skilz when I read the obligatory "to, too, two, there, they're, their, loose, lose, etc" posts that are pasted into threads. I've never wanted to be the guy who said he "had to much too loose." Plus, homonyms are easy; I just have problems with gigantic run-on sentences.

I guess I for one welcome my new grammar overlord :)

Price wars

[Anonymous Coward]

Could it be that Apple has been feeling the pinch from its competitors like Iriver, and decided to start a price war to add to their share of the market?

What does this mean for us, the consumers? Will Iriver be forced to drop the price on their models to remain competitive with Apple? If so, that would be great news.

Re:Price wars

[amichalo]

Will Iriver be forced to drop the price on their models to remain competitive with Apple? If so, that would be great news.

I take it you are implying that with a lower iRiver price, it would cause Apple to lower iPod prices again, and THAT is what would be good news.

Certainly, owning an iRiver, at any price, is very, very bad news.

Re:Price wars

[Anonymous Coward]

I do not wish to be flamed by lovers of all things Apple and Ipod, but I believe that the IRiver player is significantly better then the Ipod. It has a built-in FM radio, it can be used as an external hard-drive without the need for drivers or propriatory software, and it is cheaper then the Ipod, and has a longer battery life. What's not to like?

Re:Price wars

[Anonymous Coward]

can't disagree with all your points, but you don't need special drivers to use the iPod as an external drive, at least under Windows...

Oh, the POOR ogg people.

[raygundan]

My record collection was entirely converted to VQF. VQF. It was going to be the next big thing-- sounded better than mp3 at lower bitrates. Well, we all know how that turned out... who's heard of vqf now?

Learned an important lesson about "better" standards. Unless it's got widespread adoption, or improves things by an order of magnitude, it's not going anywhere. Vorbis may sneak in as people start using it here and there (video games, etc...) just because it's free, but I'd expect that to take a LONG time. For now, I'm sticking with mp3 for portables, and keeping the files in FLAC for easy reconversion next time. If only I'd had the storage space for that the first time around-- converting LPs is *tedious*.

Re:Oh, the POOR ogg people.

[dave420]

"Learned an important lesson about 'better' standards. Unless it's got widespread adoption, or improves things by an order of magnitude, it's not going anywhere. Vorbis may sneak in as people start using it here and there ... just because it's free, but I'd expect that to take a LONG time"

replace "vorbis" with "linux", and this sounds very familiar indeed...

Re:Oh, the POOR ogg people.

[dasmegabyte]

My suggestion? Consider AAC next time you reencode. Since it's part of the MPEG-4 spec (thus having massive industry support as opposed to VQF's "kind of neat" support) and offers a vast improvement in the size to quality ratio (as well as being supported by more portable devices than any other format other than MP3/WAV), it's already the next big thing.

More info at audiocoding.com.

Re:Oh, the POOR ogg people.

[raygundan]

I believe AAC uses vector quantization similar to VQF, and is "where the technology went" after that debacle. I will reiterate my recommendation for everybody again, because I don't think I was very clear:

Keep all your music encoded LOSSLESSLY, with somethig like FLAC. Convert to the lossy-format-du-jour as necessary, whether that's mp3, ogg, vqf, aac, wma, or whatever. It's much, much easier than going back to the source, and you can do it programatically. Even CDs have to be fed in, and if you have any LPs/tapes/etc..., you're screwed on reencoding. (realtime only, plus editing for length, noise cleanup, and manual tagging)

It Does Not Matter what tech looks like the "next big thing." You will guess wrong at some point, so pick a plan that saves your source quality (FLAC), and uses an open codec that can't disappear. Then if you're wrong, you have a backup plan that doesn't take forever.

Re:Oh, the POOR ogg people.

[sootman]

Maybe you could play your LPs back at 45 or 78, capture at 96k, and then resample them down to the correct speed... ;-)

Re:Oh, the POOR ogg people.

[Anonymous Coward]

i do keep my music encoded losslessly - as a CD. actually, nearly 700 of 'em. IMO ripping them to 128 AAC is just as good if not better than listening to the CD itself (and yes, i've tried the others), mainly b/c i listen to my ipod via in-ear buds, which puts the music where i want it, into my ears, without other ambient sounds to interrupt. i've heard much more detail in pieces with this rig than anything else i've ever listened through, including higher end cans, and 128k sampling is just fine; i think the main issue is the environment you're listening in.

Re:Oh, the POOR ogg people.

[Anonymous Coward]

For a physical playback medium such as vinyl, you need to spin the disk slower to get more info out of it.

Re:Oh, the POOR ogg people.

[dasmegabyte]

For many people, space is a much bigger concern than quality of the rip. I have recently decided to bid farewell to archaic desktop technology forever and have made the jump to a laptop. It is nice having everything I need for my computer fit into a single 20 lb bag...but it also means that with MAX hard drive size and MAX iPod size I still only have 120 gig to work with. Most of my collection sits on DVDs organized by genre, which is useful since I rarely want to listen to bluegrass but when I do, I don't want to be fumbling around with a stack of CDs.

I have had to go back to my CDs (which are MY lossless source) a few times in recent months, replacing the albums I ripped in the early days of MP3 before VBR was prevalent and 112 was consider "pretty good." However, AAC is my format for everything going forward. It isn't gonna go away like VQF.

Re:Oh, the POOR ogg people.

[joeytsai]

replace "vorbis" with "linux", and this sounds very familiar indeed...

Sure, but linux was over ten years old before people really started caring... plus many consider it improving thing by an order of magnitude - which only proves the poster's point.

Re:Oh, the POOR ogg people.

[raygundan]

I was just trying to point out a way to avoid manually inserting and removing 700 CDs. If you had them handy in FLAC (or WAV, etc...), a recode would be as simple as starting the script for whatever new format you wanted, and going away until it was done.

CDs are easier and faster than tapes and LPs, but it's still a manually-driven process. Rip once, and then encode as many times as you want later.

Re:Oh, the POOR ogg people.

[Domini]

My point exactly... yet my original post got modded Troll twice.

My losless format is CD... My G5 iTunes encodes CDs in 4 minutes... what else do I need? (Tagging isn't a problem... it's pretty automated with iTunes)

-shrug-

Re:Oh, the POOR ogg people.

[dave420]

"many consider" != real

Not being funny, but the complete lack of objectivity when discussing linux on this board means this discussion might as well be ended right here. We won't get anywhere.

Re:Considerably tweaked?

[Anonymous Coward]

You can shuffle songs with the other iPods too, it's just not on the main menu.

I'm holding out...

[WormholeFiend]

for the generation of iPods that will come with 100 teragigs, stop the war and cure cancer.

Re:I'm holding out...

[dogmatixpsych]

What in the world is a teragig? Is that like a tree-huggers' jam session? A gigabyte, yes. A terabyte, yes. But a teragig?

Re:I'm holding out...

[dogmatixpsych]

What in the world is a teragig? Is that some sort of tree-huggers' jam session? Gigabyte? Check! Terabyte? Check! Teragig? Che... Oh no, wait! Not found.

Re:I'm holding out...

[Rick Genter]

Obviously a teragig is a trillion billion bytes. (Or, more precisely, 2^40 * 2^30, or 2^70 bytes.)

(You would have known this if you'd looked at the requirements for Doom3, where a teragigahertz Pentium 9 is recommended... ;-)

Re:I'm holding out...

[Anonymous Coward]

And people will STILL bitch that it doesn't offer OGG support!

Re:I'm holding out...

[Anonymous Coward]

for the generation of iPods that will come with 100 teragigs, stop the war and cure cancer.

C'mon, be realistic. Stop the war? Never happen.

iMac

[sjb2016]

*The 60gb hds are actually for the iMac G5's that will float on a cushion of air and have a hockey puck base which can make any flat surface into an air hockey table. Who says we Mac users don't get any of the good games? I love air hockey.

*Pure conjecture

Mmmmmmm.... Hotcakes.

[porkchop_d_clown]

Got any maple syrup?

Re:I, Pod

[ilikejam]

Aye, right.
</glaswegian>

You don't understand capitalism.

[jotaeleemeese]

If the even try to sit on top of the iPod as is, in a few months will come the iPod killer (of which there are several out there already) and will eat their lunch.

This is their attempt to innovate, but they are obviosuly missing the point.

People that already have the critter will not buy it, people out there shopping have better alternatives (sorry, I don't like inflexible formats), What is going to happen is what very often happens to market leaders (Palm,Nokia), they find a great idea, milk it for all what is worth but they develop tunnel vision while others, more dettached from the origianl success history are in a better position to take the technology a step futher.

Re:considerably tweaked?

[KevinKnSC]

In other words, what you're saying is, "I don't think I'd ever need that functionality, so I don't believe anyone else will ever need it, either."

Not everyone lives their life within easy reach of an electrical outlet, and those who don't appreciate every extra bit of battery life they can get.

Still sucks down battery power to skip tracks?

[jcostantino]

Does the newest (or even Gen 3) iPod still eat battery power when you track forward through a playlist or random? My 1st gen holds ~5 songs in the buffer and if I don't want to hear any of them by tracking forward, it loads the next batch and wastes HD power by doing so. It would have seemed obvious to just cache the next 500 songs in the buffer as well, plus it wouldn't create a huge pause as the HD spins up and loads data.

Is it possible that the extra four hours' playback time was "recovered" by the caching of the song data?

Just in case people yell at me for not pressing the menu button and manually scrolling to a song: My iPod is mounted on my dash and I'd rather push a button that I can find with my finger than ram into a car because I was looking for something.

Re:Still sucks down battery power to skip tracks?

[nano2nd]

Wouldn't you need 10x the buffer RAM to do this? IIRC, the iPod has 32MB RAM for the caching of tracks, hence your current buffering of around 5 songs.

Re:Still sucks down battery power to skip tracks?

[Doug Barth]

The reason the iPod can only load up ~5 songs in it's buffer is because it has a 32 MB RAM buffer. It couldn't cache 500 songs in that size of a buffer.

Re:Still sucks down battery power to skip tracks?

[rjung2k]

Cache the next 500 songs???

Re:Still sucks down battery power to skip tracks?

[jcostantino]

sorry, sorry... I meant caching the list of songs, not the actual data. the XML file for track names in my iTunes is 1 meg and it includes all of the relevant song information. throw that in the buffer and load the song information from IT instead of pulling the next batch from the HD.

Re:Still sucks down battery power to skip tracks?

[jcostantino]

I meant to say cache the XML data for the songs but I was a little vague. My iTunes XML data is about 1 meg and it contains all the data for the library, if the iPod could get song info from that instead of loading the next 32mb of data, the battery life wouldn't suffer if you like to track forward and backward.

Re:Still not such a great deal

[0prime]

You're like those republicans, ranting and raving about how one guy goes out and makes a documentary filled with half-truths and saying that people are idiots for believing it. Obviously, if a documentary is made about something people should believe as gospel truth.

Nice Update

[UMhydrogen]

It seems that whatever apple does, people will complain. Yes, the 20gig version no longer comes with the case, dock and remote, but does it really matter?

If you're looking into the 20gig version, here are some thoughts:
1) Spend $40 to get the remote (if you don't have it already).
2) The dock is only an added feature, it's not really needed. I bought the case and remote on my own when I got the 10gig version and have never seen a need for the dock.
3) Get a better case than the $40 Apple one that requires you to take it out of the case to use it. There are some nice cheap clear ones out there.

Also keep in mind, if you wanted the 40gig version in the past, it's now $100 cheaper! I was planning on getting the 20gig because I filled up my 10gigs. Now for the same price I can get another 20gigs. While the new 20gig version does leave out some things, the 40gig is much better deal now!

If you're like me and bought the remote and case seperately, then upgrading to the 20gig version still lets you have the remote/case. No big deal. The way I see it, I'm still saving $100 no matter what I do.

Look on the bright side, there's now longer battery life, a cleaned up interface and a new wheel.

Re:Nice Update

[BigBir3d]

the remote just adds to the cluttered cable mess that i really don't need. granted most of the time i am using the ipod while riding my motorcycle...

bluetooth headphones small enough to fit inside of my helmet would rule.

hrm... time to go make my millions.

Don't be idiotic.

[jotaeleemeese]

There are other alternatives, and radio is not as primitive as in the US in other countries.

Re:Don't be idiotic.

[Moofie]

Yeah! The BBC comes from a whole different country! I didn't believe it at first, but I checked. No wonder the people talking on it sound so funny!

The world ended today in a blinding flash of nuclear exuberance. Here's Brent Trentwhistle with the latest.

Re:Don't be idiotic.

[MasonMcD]

Oh, c'mon, laugh. Did I really need an emoticon?

What a moron.

[jotaeleemeese]

Obviosuly you have never been in a hurricane zone or in a place after a big earthquake.

Very often the only means of knowing what is going on is your trusty AM/FM portable radio.

Re:What a moron.

[jcostantino]

By way of your analogy, why would you want a device that couldn't be recharged (we're assuming the power is out) to be your means of listening for emergency radio instructions?

They still sell batteries, they still sell cheap radios. You could buy a Grundig FR200 FM/AM/SW radio with a built in dynamo for $39.99 at Radio Shack if you were really concerned with radio during emergency or blackout.

Re:What a moron.

[System.out.println()]

"Well, there a hurricane headed through.... winds are strong... heavy rains..."

GEE, ya think?
Honestly, what can a radio tell you that isn't blatantly obvious already?

Re:What a moron.

[Anonymous Coward]

The aliens can be killed with water!

Re:What a moron.

[Jeremy Erwin]

It can tell you where dams have broken, what places have flooded and will soon be flooded. It can tell you where the roads are washed out-- and where to seek emergency shelter...

Full refund...

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you tried to do that? It would be easier to make love to a lion with toothache (old joke)!

You also have to pay postage to return the item (distance selling regs only work for mail order). The law says they *can* charge that, so they do.

They will also bitch and complain if yo usay "I will NOT pay a restocking fee". They will say "you must". Then if you insist, they will pass you on to someone else who will say "oh, no there is no restocking fee".

Try getting trading standards to get their ass in gear won't work, though.

Grrr.

Reduced Price?

[Ill_Omen]

What is this "reduced price" I'm reading about? It looks like an iPod with more space than I need will still cost $299.

Re:Reduced Price?

[Hitchcock_Blonde]

Here is a simple solution to your problem: Don't buy one.

honoring iTunes sort order...

[KH2002]

"the iPod won't honor any sort of iTunes playlist order"

Sure it will. If you don't get the order you want, make sure the left-hand iTunes song column is highlighted. You can sort by any criterion and then right-click the playlist name to "copy to playlist order" so that the current sort becomes the default sort (with left-hand column highlighted).

When the left-hand column is highlighted, you can drag songs around, too.

That does it!

[midifarm]

I'm not buying an iPod until it supports OGG and AU and RA and WMA and MOD and SDII and 24-bit 96kHz files and has a built in sound module so it can play MIDI files and WRK and SF and any other esocteric file format that I can think of.

Get with it people, they can't support everything! Quit bitching and bite the bullet.

Peace

Re:That does it!

[Anonymous Coward]

Dingbat. That wasn't the GP posters' question. The question was "WHY NO OGG"?

There is no reason, except that they can't be arsed.

If they can't be arsed to put the free codec in there (costing some few manhours work to a single runoff), I can't be arsed to buy it. Neither can the GP.

The got a friggin' e-book reader in there fer chrissakes! More people have ogg than a fookin e-book.

Re:That does it!

[martinX]

I know that the iTMS sells, and the iPod supports, Audiobooks, but I didn't think they did e-books.

Re:battery

[Samael_666]

Correct link :

http://www.ipodbattery.com/

History of the iPod wheel

[lavar78]

Actually, it's the click wheel first seen on the iPod mini. The 1G iPod had a moving wheel surrounded by a thin wheel of clickable buttons. The 2G model replaced the moving wheel with a touch-sensitive one. The 3G model kept the touch-sensitive wheel, but replaced the four buttons around the wheel with a row of four touch-sensitive buttons above the wheel. The iPod mini has one wheel that is touch-sensitive (when scrolling) and clickable at the N, S, E, and W points.

Dave Berry's column right on time

[stefanb]

Looks like Dave is right on time with his column:

This is the biological basis for shopping. And this is why, even today, most men, when they shop, are yak-whompers. They do not wander: They go straight for the kill. I know I do. When I enter a store, I have a definite, practical, no-nonsense objective in mind, which is to locate, and secure, an electronic gizmo that I already have, except the new one has more features.

Re:Dave Berry's column right on time

[scoot241]

Strange... I didn't see any article from Dave Berry... it was from an unusual fellow named Dave Barry.

No.

[Anonymous Coward]

Want OGG? There are plenty of solutions: iRiver and Neuros to name two.

Anyone griping about iPod ogg support I always direct to the companies that DO support ogg, and DO listen to their customers.

I own a Neuros device and it is awesome. NeurosAudio recently released Neuros II as well as some seriously high-capacity backpacks (80Gig!!).

In addition, there is a GREAT free sync manager written in Java: http://neurosdbm.sf.net/

iPod? What's that? Who cares? It would be NICE if Slashdot would give a little coverage to something other than the iPod for a change.

Support iRiver and Neuros.

Re:12 hour battery life and click-wheel

[arson1]

catching up in terms of sales? No.
catching up in terms of capacity? No.
catching up in terms of functionality? No.
catching up in terms of popularity? No.
catching up in terms of battery-life? IDK, Creative doesn't list the battery-life

Re:OGG Vorbis, what does it take to get the suppor

[teg]

What's it going to take for you to abandon an obscure format and switch to AAC?

An open source implementation, easily available in music programs under Linux so I can listen to them and create them there.

Re:considerably tweaked?

[weekendgeek]

What are you doing to need more than 6-8hours battery life that can not be solved with a regular or car charger?

Try a cross country flight with one stopover.

Re:OGG Vorbis, what does it take to get the suppor

[meringuoid]

The iRiver players are nice - I mean, they must have been designed to a Slashdot specification, they do everything, Linux, ogg, no copyprotection - but I would like them to be able to assemble playlists on the fly, rather than copying in Winamp lists from the PC.

That's my niggle, anyway. Apparently iRiver are working on a firmware upgrade to add this in, which is due out somewhere between the Hurd and Duke Nukem Forever.

SO WHAT?!

[SPYvSPY]

I have found both the dock and the carrying case to be nearly useless. Also, the dock probably costs Apple about two cents to make (assuming they've recovered the cost for their plastic mold), and the carrying case probably costs them about thirty cents (a little cardboard, some fabric and some elastic). I doubt this is where Apple is getting its cost savings. Anyway, your better off buying aftermarket items that are just plain better.

Re:SO WHAT?!

[Monkelectric]

Its not about cost savings. That is a time honored tradition with electronics. It's all psychology. Say you buy a PDA and it doesn't come with a cradle and screen protectors and a protective case. Said PDA is also very cheap, say, 300$.

The PDA company then sells the cradle, protectors and case at far above their "value", knowing that a large percentage of customers will just grab them when they buy the PDA. That way they get to advertise their 300$ price ont he low profit item (the PDA), and make quite a bit more on high profit items like stylses and screen protectors and what not.

Re:SO WHAT?!

[ikea5]

The PDA company then sells the cradle, protectors and case at far above their "value", knowing that a large percentage of customers will just grab them when they buy the PDA. Since when did you see a Palm branded screen protector, or HP branded cases for sale at your local Staples? Those add-on items usually are made by 3rd party suppliers.

Re:SO WHAT?!

[Monkelectric]

But there are palm branded cradles, stylses, etc. :) When I bought my PDA (a dell axim, 299$), you could order *EVERYTHING* online in one big package FROM DELL (Rhinoskin case, sandisk memory card and screen protectors, made by dell :-)), which I did because I'm one of the suckers I talked about.

Re:SO WHAT?!

[Anonymous Coward]

I have the 3rd gen 20GB model ($399 - middle tier iPod when I bought it) which shipped with dock, carrying case, and remote. If I want the 4th gen 40GB model I will also pay $399. This time, though, I don't get the dock. I don't get the remote. And I don't get the carrying case. So I add them to my iPod order for $39 a piece. That's an extra $117. Let's assume that all those items were included in the price of the iPod to begin with, taking the total to $516. Looking back at the 3rd gen iPods, I would have only paid $499 for 40GB, dock, remote, and case. Looking at it that way, Apple has raised prices. I guess I'm a sucker. My 3rd gen just sold on eBay...

Re:SO WHAT?!

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, if they cost so little why are they dropping them?

The truth - because they are huge optional profit-makers. They'll make them optional for all iPods, even the top-end models (well, they already have with the now mid-range 40GB), and get mega-profit from selling the extras at inflated prices.

That's just not cricket, Apple. It's pretty much an ill-designed rip-off. I was going to get an iPod, but I don't feel like being taken advantage of that way...

What I Want

[Saturninus]

I want to see a high capacity Mp3 player for $100, when are they going to do that?

Return Gen3?

[CcntMnky]

So I purchased a Gen3 15GB iPod from Amazon less than 30 days ago. I'm thinking about returning it, then ordering a Gen4 20GB as soon as it's listed. The one I've got is in perfect condition, other than a minor scuff on the wheel (I'm anal, so most wouldn't even notice it). I don't really need more space or the different controls, but the "shuffle playlist" and longer battery are nice, as is the included USB2 cable.

I can't decide. Is it worth the hassle? Would Amazon do it, or am I out of luck?

Re:Return Gen3?

[amichalo]

Between the extra batery life and the new scroll wheel, I would go for the Gen4.

I have an iPod Mini and my favorite aspect is not the size or the color, it's the scroll wheel. It is SO easy to use when you can scroll and then click. You don't forget the orientation of the wheel because when you hold it in your hand, you can tell which way is 'north' on the iPod, even though you are holding it at a 315 degrees instead of 360 degrees.

Hard to explain, easy to understand in person. Bottom line is, if it only costs you shipping, I would get the Gen 4.

Re:Return Gen3?

[davisshaver]

You are lucky. I just bought mine two weeks ago from Apple, and did the free engraving deal (which makes the iPod unreturnable). I am not happy about it.

Re:Return Gen3?

[Anonymous Coward]

why do you think they are more than happy to engrave for free... so they don't get a bunch of returns...

Re:Return Gen3?

[amichalo]

I sympathize. This is always an issue when companies, but particularly Apple it seems, upgrade a model line.

My advice is first, enjoy what you have which is the best digital music player in the world and second, be sure to check the rumor sites before major Apple purchases. This site even has a buyers guide that advises you where in the product life cycle an Apple product is.

Re:Return Gen3?

[CcntMnky]

I did. I knew the rumors, but I had a specific need for one, so I went ahead. The rumors said this one would support video, which I specifically DID NOT want. I wouldn't worry about this too much if I weren't within my return period.

However, I decided to go ahead and return the one I have. Turns out my workplace gets an employee discount at Apple, so I may save a little money!

Re:OGG Vorbis, what does it take to get the suppor

[r3dx0r]

well apparently most switchers don't care that much about ogg support.

here's what steve said in a press conference sometime ago http://www.macobserver.com/article/2004/04/29.9.sh tml

i'd say make yourself heard...

Re:battery

[Anonymous Coward]

Is "Ipod Batery" when you take it fishing?

IpodBattery

Re:Considerably tweaked?

[Anonymous Coward]

the ipod is about 12.7 mm , so assuming that it was 13.7 before, that's a 7% reduction in thickness. That's pretty good considering how small it is to begin with!

Re:12 hour battery life and click-wheel

[bahwi]

Yeah, but still kickin' it in terms of design and looks. =) Mind you, I've heard nothing but good things in terms of the Creative Zen, but iPod has several very good features:

The USB/Firewire port is also the charger. So yes, a USB 2 or FW connection will actually charge the damn thing while you are messing around with it on the computer. Ultra cool. Something you don't really notice though, but you do tend to notice after several days of use that it is only at 1/2 battery b/c it's been in the computer so much. iTrip goes to extensive lengths to match the look of the iPod(now with iTrip mini).

I've got a mini, because, well, I think anyone who has that much music is just collection music for the sake of collecting, or is just silly. And it is much more portable and enjoyable to carry around(including the armband which is just awesome!).

Slashdot irony at its best -- look at the homepage

[IronChefMorimoto]

If you look at the homepage right now (July 19, 2004, 11:05am EST), you'll see two stories. An ironic juxtaposition of Apple releasing its latest/greatest iPod and Microsoft's PocketPC platform getting a test virus.

Apple loves it. Microsoft hates it. Film at 11.

IronChefMorimoto

Your point stands anyway

[lavar78]

While Windows Media 9 has optional DRM that is turned on by default, AAC doesn't add any DRM at all.

Automatic $99 upgrade?

[Rick Genter]

My question is similar to those who have asked about returned Generation 3 iPods being replaced with Generation 4 iPods.

I was reading about Apple's iPod battery replacement program and, from the description, it sounds like they basically replace your iPod with a new one when you send it in for a replacement battery. Does this mean that, if I send in a Generation 3 iPod for a replacement battery say, two years from now, I'll probably end up with a Generation 5 or 6 or whatever is current at the time iPod for my $99?

Re:Automatic $99 upgrade?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you read closely, they'll replace it with a refurbished version of the one you have. I have a 2nd Generation and was thinking about that since mine is 10GB, but I'd get a refurbished 10GB instead.

I don't understand why they just don't replace the battery. It's not that hard. I plan on doing so when the time comes.

So, how long before the 60gb is released?

[mbourgon]

We already know Toshiba is making them, they just got dumb and leaked the news before Steve did. Just like when ATI leaked info in advance on one of the cards. (One difference: while Steve didn't mention the ATI, it was still available via the web site)

Or is this a way to make the iPods appear cheaper, since there's no $500 one? Now, the apparent difference between a Windows-type Media Device (which, say, sells for $600) and an iPod is $200, not $100.

Re:So, how long before the 60gb is released?

[millia]

I've been thinking about this since the announcement this weekend. I have come up with several ideas:
1) they're still trying to figure out how to stuff it into the 20/40 new case, so they don't have to come up with yet another new dock.
2) caching/battery life is still is an issue they're tweaking.
3) the 60 will get announced as a one-more-thing at an upcoming Steve appearance, because they wanted something special ipod-related to be announced after the new imacs come out.

my money is on 1 & 3. i don't think it's a marketing thing.

Re:So, how long before the 60gb is released?

[Aqua OS X]

I'm fairly sure Apple thinks the 60 gig iPod won't be a big seller. The 3G 40gig iPod didn't fly of the shelfs. Most people bought the base model or the lower end model that comes with a dock.

Most folks don't care about having a gigantic iPod. Very few people need a 60gig hard disk media player.

Re:considerably tweaked?

[OS24Ever]

I've managed 8 hours out of my gen 2 iPod a few times when flying from Raleigh, NC to San Francisco and back again. It usually dies half way through the San Fran flight on the way back to Dallas.

Hate it when I forget my power adapter.

It's great to see the new generation.

[RegalBegal]

I'm a proud owner of a 3G 40gig. I'll eventually save up for the 60gig when it comes out.

In the meantime I can't help but think all the loyal third-party vendors of accessories for the 3G (there were alot after the holiday boom) would be a bit miffed that Apple changed the design again. Leaving them to re-make many of their already well sold products.

Re:It's great to see the new generation.

[amichalo]

In the meantime I can't help but think all the loyal third-party vendors of accessories for the 3G (there were alot after the holiday boom) would be a bit miffed that Apple changed the design again. Leaving them to re-make many of their already well sold products.

Really? I couldn't imagine they are upset at Apple. Apple has CREATED an entire acessory industry and when new products come out, especially when the design changes.
Now your iDevice that you love doesn't work with the new iPod, so you have to buy a new one where as you had no reason to need a new one prior to the upgrade.

Plus, you might sell your old iPod on eBay, creating a new owner who also needs the old-generation iDevice...

Re:It's great to see the new generation.

[RegalBegal]

consider myself served.

I must get my caffiene before I post nonsense drivel. I supposed I should be working now too.

Re:It's great to see the new generation.

[tbone1]

In the meantime I can't help but think all the loyal third-party vendors of accessories for the 3G (there were alot after the holiday boom) would be a bit miffed that Apple changed the design again. Leaving them to re-make many of their already well sold products.

Why? Take a look at this page. It looks like the interface for the remote and headphones is the same, so most (if not all) of the accessories should still work.

Re:It's great to see the new generation.

[RegalBegal]

already admitting jumping to conclusions. I was taking into account protective case more than anything.

*counts minutes till 5*

Well Actually..

[Klar]

"Hot cakes cooked in bear grease or pork lard were popular from earliest times in American. First made of cornmeal, the griddle cakes or pancakes were of course best when served piping hot and were often sold at church benefits, fairs, and other functions. So popular were they that by the beginning of the 19th century 'to sell like hot cakes' was a familiar expression for anything that sold very quickly effortlessly, and in quantity." From "Encyclopedia of Word and Phrase Origins" by Robert Hendrickson (Facts on File, New York, 1997)

Re:Well Actually..

[gnucurry]

I would presume "selling like hotcakes" also refers to the fact that people buy 4 at a time.

Re:OGG Vorbis, what does it take to get the suppor

[Anonymous Coward]

Sir, on behalf of humans everywhere,
suck my dick.

Re:considerably tweaked?

[OS24Ever]

I've made it to Raleigh to SFO, and Raleigh to Seattle on one charge, including the jog to the next gate.

I average about 8 hours on one battery charge.

Software update also released

[amichalo]

Apple also released a Software Update for ALL iPods.

The updates (from there site) are:

New for Click Wheel iPods:
-Shuffle songs with one click
-Create multiple On-The-Go playlists
-Delete songs from On-The-Go playlists
-Select reading playback speed for audiobooks
-Hear the clicker user interface sound through headphones
-Charge via USB 2.0 connection
-Enjoy improved playback performance

Updates for iPod with a Dock connector and iPod mini:
-Compatibility with iTunes 4.5 or later and the iTunes Music Store
-Improved playback performance
-Support for the Apple Lossless Encoder, to enable compressed music encoding at high quality

Updates for iPod without a Dock connector:
-Compatibility with iTunes 4.5 or later and the iTunes Music Store
-Improved playback performance

Re:Software update also released

[aptenergy]

iPod Updater v3.0 iPod Software 3.0

Click Wheel iPod iPod mini Updater v1.1 iPod Software 1.1

iPod mini iPod Updater v2.2 iPod Software 2.2

iPod with dock connector iPod Updater v1.4 iPod Software 1.4

Touch Wheel iPod

Scroll Wheel iPod
They didn't change anything. All they're providing is all the old software coupled with the new iPod 3.0 Software for the new click wheel iPod.

A more modern expression

[Anonymous Coward]

The correct Slashdot phrase is "selling like hot grits".

The Slashdot MicroEconomy

[weez75]

People that already have this critter will buy it. Apple has tremendous brand loyalty and plenty of folks pick up replacements and upgrades like the new iPod. I've done so twice now.

There's something horrific that occurs here: this community tends to view itself as representative of the consumer base as a whole when in fact it is not. Granted, it is a varied group but tends to be much more technical than the average Joe. So to say that it's not going to sell because of an inflexible format may represent a portion of the Slashdot community but that is a very small portion of the world-at-large. Obviously the general population of people shopping for portable players like the iPod or they wouldn't have sold as many as they have. Slashdot readers, contrary to popular opinion, still only represent a very small piece of the global economy.

Re:considerably tweaked?

[aclarke]

How about somewhere where you don't have ready access to electricity? For instance, my wife is currently in Sudan and can't just go home at night and plug in her iPod, digital camera, etc. since her "home" right now is a mud hut. It's understantable that battery life isn't that important to YOU but it is important to many others.

To appease Mini-buyers...

[tentimestwenty]

That would be stupid, but it brings up an interesting juxtaposition now that the entry iPod has so much more capacity than the Mini. Perhaps Apple made the iPod such good value to spread demand around because the Mini supply is still so restrained. Especially with the Mini now being sold worldwide, it's actually a smart move for them to maximize revenue by offering die-hard mini customers a really big incentive to "compromise" with the regular iPod. This also has the effect of keeping the Mini, which is the "cool" device, more exclusive at a relatively high price, which they can safely drop when they have much more supply.

One word...

[mark-ss]

...betamax

Get a real mobile phone...

[SPYvSPY]

...nearly all decent new mobile phones have AM/FM. I know my k700 does, and I carry it more often than my iPod.

Charging from USB 2.0 connection is big.

[Shivetya]

That will be a major boon to those in the PC arena who don't have firewire. It was the only reason I added a firewire card to my PC... just to charge my iPod.

Re:Charging from USB 2.0 connection is big.

[Vandil X]

There's always the option of charging your iPod in an AC outlet overnight via Firewire + AC Plug Adaptor.

Despite using Firewire to transfer songs, I often charge my 3G iPod with the included AC adaptor overnight -- Just like a cell phone.

Re:Charging from USB 2.0 connection is big.

[Steve B]

That will be a major boon to those in the PC arena who don't have firewire. It was the only reason I added a firewire card to my PC... just to charge my iPod.

Huh? The Apple site lists "AC adapter" as one of the included accessories for each model.

Re:OGG Vorbis, what does it take to get the suppor

[presearch]

Adding OGG support to iPod also means that Apple would have to add it to QuickTime for OSX and Windows
so that iTunes works with it correctly. And once they start, it has to be supported forever. Maybe it's no big deal, or
maybe it is, but there are more complications then just dropping it in the iPod half-assed.

Re:OGG Vorbis, what does it take to get the suppor

[Hitchcock_Blonde]

Maybe! But he's definitely sporting a much nicer digital audio player than you are.

Re:12 hour battery life and click-wheel

[Anonymous Coward]

>They're slowly catching up with the Creative Zen then.

and Creative is ever more quickly losing on the sales...

Re:OGG Vorbis, what does it take to get the suppor

[reoe_123]

Why wait? Iriver has supported the vorbis format for awhile. I was waiting for the next gen ipod to support vorbis, but then i realized iriver had a fairly competitive product and of decided to send my money to iriver. If you want vorbis to get more industry support, then we need to start rewarding fringe adopters of said format like iriver. I refuse to re-encode my music collection in mp3; consequently, I buy a H120. So I am happily listening to my music through my iriver player. Although I do love the Ipod, I also love my iriver player as i listen to it everywhere. Both are great products.

Re:considerably tweaked?

[weekendgeek]

I have a 3rd generation 15gb, and I've never seemed to manage over 6 hours. I don't really do any skipping around (1 or 2 here and there), but I fail to make it through the last hour of the 2nd leg of the trip.

Could be the 3rd gen iPod, or maybe I listen at a higher volume.

I guess, as they say, YMMV.

iPod software 3.0 - mini not supported

[sjonke]

iPod Software 3.0 is not compatible with the iPod mini. So says the read me in the latest iPod software installer, which only has 3.0 software for the new clickwheel full-size iPod. Is the iPod mini already obsolete or will iPod mini be supported in 3.0.1? Only time will tell....

Re:OGG Vorbis, what does it take to get the suppor

[Anonymous Coward]

No, that would be your penis. He is just being pragmatist.

Apple just released the update a few mins ago...

[Anonymous Coward]

iPod Updater 2004-07-15

Apple site gets canned?

[Skibbering]

And you can Apple's iPod site

Since when is "can" not a verb.. [/feeble]

Re:OGG Vorbis, what does it take to get the suppor

[DMUTPeregrine]

Try contributing to ipodlinux. Ogg support made easy.

Awesome!

[warrior]

The orginal buttons-round-the-wheel interface was much better than the 3rd gen 4-buttons up top interface (I hated it). The mini's click/touch wheel is the perfect melding of the original wheel/buttons interface, just awesome. This is great, I wish I had gobs of money to get a new one, but my 2nd gen 20GB is still chugging away healthily, no battery problems or anything. Another great product from Apple!

Re:12 hour battery life and click-wheel

[rjung2k]

Nah, they're telling Creative that a music player can have long-playing capabilities and not look like a piece of geek ass.

20GB & 40GB = no remote!

[zardie]

Actually, the 20GB doesn't include the remote, either.

In fact, nor does the 40GB model anymore.

Re:20GB & 40GB = no remote!

[dreamt]

According to the specs, the 40GB does have a remote:

Earbud headphones, dock, remote, carrying case, AC adapter, FireWire cable, USB 2.0 cable, 4-pin-to-6-pin FireWire adapter

I do like that they also come w/ a USB cable.

For my money

[shokk]

For less than that price, I just bought a Creative Zen 40GB. It doesn 90% of the same things and I don't really have a need to hook up little attachements like a voice recorder to it.

Re:For my money

[Ath]

For less than that price, I just bought a Creative Zen 40GB. It doesn 90% of the same things and I don't really have a need to hook up little attachements like a voice recorder to it.

You probably applied the same rule to the car you purchased. While your Geo Metro will also get you to work and back, my Audi A4 with Quattro, a Bose sound system, and leather interior gives me more pleasure when driving it.

I am not critizing, I am only trying to remind you that people put different values on different things. There is a reason why brands are important to their owners because they convey a lot of things: image, lifestyle, costs, etc. What may float your boat may not float someone else's. Different strokes for different folks.

And lest you fail to see my point that you also have the same character trait, take a look in your cabinet and tell me how many generic products you have. I can guarantee that there are generic versions of almost everything you buy. Cheaper? Yes. Better? Maybe...maybe not.

Re:For my money

[whitegold]

Not really a fair comparison.

More like comparing an Audi to a Peugot, or a BMW. Both luxury performance products with preferences being largely subjective.

That being said, for the price of your Audi I'd prefer a Suburu WRX ST-i :)

Also, I have no idea what a Geo Metro is, so I may be talking out my ass. I assume it's a low end car?

Anyway, the Creative Nomad Zen is a good product. Very good. The 60 Gig NX model sells for less than a 20 gig iPod. Sorry, less than it DID. Not counting the price drop.

It looks (and this is subjective) far cooler than the iPod, in brushed aluminium, and is far less Mac-centric. It also doesn't wipe itself if you try to use it in a different computer.

It plays WMA (which is important to me) and MP3. All the reviews I've seen are very positive on it. There's just one major difference.

It's just too big. Considering the technology is IDENTICAL to the iPod (same hard drive, etc), why is it so much bigger?

Re:For my money

[adamjaskie]

Yes, a Geo Metro is a VERY low end car. Think Yugo, or Ford Festiva. Cheap, good gas milage, poorly made, ugly and unsafe in an accident.

That is a fair comparison with a slight change, to include the mp3 player I bought instead of a 1G iPod a number of years ago. Replace "Creative Nomad Zen" with "Archos 10" and you have my situation. Needless to say, with Apple's current "Cram & Jam" deal, I am buying an iPod in the next couple weeks (next paycheck, in other words).

For those that don't know, if you can get an Apple student discount through your college (10% off everything for me) you can also get "Cram & Jam". $200 rebate if you buy an iBook (other than the CD-ROM model) or Powerbook and an iPod (not iPod Mini) at the same time. With the student discount, that gives me a $70 20 gig iPod.

Re:For my money

[Anonymous Coward]

ARCHOS! That's the name I was trying to think of when I was talking about them the other day.

Their newest product is impressive. http://www.infosyncworld.com/news/n/5126.html

And I respect them as pioneers, despite the flaws. :)

Anyway, I have to say... $70 is a damn good price. I just started a new job as chief web designer for the largest university in our state, so I might see if I can get any sort of cool discount on stuff. :)

Re:For my money

[shokk]

Like I said, this was "for my money". Not everyone has the money for Audi A4's or Volvos, so luckily we have alternatives like Geo Metros or my ten year old Ford Escort. Some are forced to have these "character traits". Those leather seats would surely float my boat, but my paycheck says otherwise.

probably a 60 gigger in August

[Scudsucker]

Remember that Apple placed an order for a bunch of 60 gig drives a month or so ago. I thought they were going to wait till the Apple expo in Europe, the first week of August, for them to come out with new iPods. That's probably when they'll unveil the 60 gig...makes sense as they don't have a high end (price) iPod right now.

Suggesting a possible remote replacement?

[ianscot]

Steve did mention the whole in-the-car thing quite prominently recently. Seems like a sweet spot would be replacing the not-often-used remote -- with something that dovetails with a car setting more naturally somehow. Make it more car-friendly, sell it separately and profit for the redesign.

There's no doubt at all that the car setting is still that weak link, anyway.

Personally I never saw the point of the remote. I do know someone who walks at work listening to audio books, and he's got the iPod on his belt with the remote up on his shoulder -- seems like he's working around the badly-designed Apple "sheath" carrier he got that won't let him at the buttons.

Re:Suggesting a possible remote replacement?

[AragornSonOfArathorn]

I think Apple (or some third party) should come out with a remote with LCD display, that will allow access to menu functions, like the remote on the iRiver or MiniDisc players. That way, one could keep the iPod in a backpack or something and still be able to change settings without digging the thing out of the bag. I used to do this years ago with my MiniDisc player and it worked great.

Re:Suggesting a possible remote replacement?

[ianscot]

Apple (or some third party) should come out with a remote with LCD display,

Totally agree. It's an accessory, though, not part of the base price. (Personally I like armbands, but for those mysterious runners who, unlike me, make iPods skip, the iPod can go at your waist and the remote goes somewhere that takes more punishment.)

But the update doesn't include the new features

[Shinzaburo]

Yes, Apple offers a new software update for previous iPod models, but these updates don't include the new features present on the 4th generation iPods announced today.

Apple = nice guys.

[Matt Clare]

On Monday I replaced my now falling apart PowerBook G3 with a PowerBook 15' and through an educational offer in Canada 'Cram and Jam' I also bought an iPod for $90 after rebate. I knew the 4th Gen was soon, but I needed that PowerBook and I can't knock a $90 15GB 3rd Gen iPod.

Things got even better today when they e-mailed me to tell me I'd now get a 20GB and the ship date was moved from the 27th to the 21st!

Now I just hope that PowerBook shows up at work with the afternoon mail!

iRiver a BETTER alternative

[Anonymous Coward]

Check iRiver's players: I bought this one, that was much more cheaper than the equivalent iPod, it's as small as it, has double battery capacity, radio, OGG support, direct recording from optical line/in micro, etc. etc., firmware upgradeable and a company that LISTENS to customers requests.

Have a good choice!

New Ipod

[KillaKen187]

I feel like one of those Sprint commercials. All new Ipod owners get the new and improved Ipods because they are new and being new is special.

Re:New Ipod

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, sucks how technology keeps improving like that. Why can't they just stop progress for a few years!

buffer still too small

[wonderdog]

RAM is so cheap, why the small bufer?! 25 minutes of "skip protection" just isn't enough. I still use my Rio500 for running cuz my iPod just can't take it. Bigger buffer gets you more jogging time AND more battery life. Seems the returns on this minor investment would be big enough to justify it.

Re:buffer still too small

[presearch]

It's probably RAM that's integrated into one of the chips, not a separate component.

Re:OGG Vorbis, what does it take to get the suppor

[falconx7]

Personally I don't give a damn how long it takes, my iRiver has ogg support, I'm just hoping they add APE support. And atleast firmware updates help older players not be as outdated. It may not have as nice of an interface as an ipod but even with these price drops, its still cheaper. It comes with remote(with its own display) and carrying case. Has a 16 hour battery life, even apple's latest efforts haven't caught up with that. Greatest thing I like is that it works like a true external hard drive, retaining the full filenames etc. making it easy to copy them back off. Plus it has a radio, has a mic for recording and can record the radio.

Only thing iPod has over it is the navigation wheel of its and a slightly better interface. They're slowly updating the firmware to better the interface, with no differences between 20gb and 40gb.

Maybe the 5th gen iPod will actually be competitive with the current gen iRiver?

http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?de sc ription=55-150-018&depa=0

Re:ARRRGGGH: check out refurbs

[Anonymous Coward]

How 'bout a refurbished 10GB (3G) refurbished unit for $199, with the 1-year factory warranty?

Small Dog has 204 in stock: http://www.smalldog.com/product/12652184/ss

(Hmmm, can't seem to remember my ID here...)

OGG Users = Terrorists

[Kenshin]

OGG Users = Terrorists

Apple will not make concessions with terrorists.

Just purchased an iPod.

[piecewise]

Well, I just bought an iPod. Mine is a clunky 2nd Gen iPod with a cracked out of warranty screen (no idea how that happened).

So, the 4th Gen is worth it. Slimmer, sleaker. It'll be the same size as mine (20GB) - but I only have 2,200 songs so far anyway.

The retail stores around DC (2 in MD, 3 in VA) do not have them. One said "early this week." Another, "hopefully by Friday." Another, "2-3 weeks."

I ordered over the phone and I should have my iPod by tomorrow with overnight shipping (crossing fingers). I am dead tired from a flight and I asked a very nice sales rep:

"Any advantage.. um.. Is it better to order online or over the phone?"

"Uh.... Over the phone. Do I need to explain why, sir?"

"Oh. Oh right.... Right."

Re:Just purchased an iPod.

[nahorniak]

"Any advantage.. um.. Is it better to order online or over the phone?"

"Uh.... Over the phone. Do I need to explain why, sir?"

"Oh. Oh right.... Right."

...I don't get it.

Re:Just purchased an iPod.

[Mistah Blue]

Immediate shipping for phone order vs. waiting 2-3 weeks for it to hit the store shelves.

Re:Just purchased an iPod.

[nahorniak]

Yeah, but he's talking about ordering online and not in-store...

Re:Just purchased an iPod.

[taped2thedesk]

Probably the fact that he was already on the phone with a sales rep...

Re:Just purchased an iPod.

[Mistah Blue]

That is what I said.

Gerund.

[Anonymous Coward]

Not verb.

Stupid Newbie Question

[Anonymous Coward]

Right now, all my music is in VBR-320 MP3 format. There's probably more than 20 gigs, but I don't listen to all of it regularly, so let's say I get this new 20GB model.

It's all from CDs I own. Will I have to buy it again to get it onto the iPod? (Assuming that iTunes has it all in their catalog, which I doubt.)

Also, the only PC I have is a Linux PC with no USB port, no Firewire port, and no PCI expansion slots to add either of those. Will I have to buy a whole new PC to put music on it, or is there some kind of magic iPod-Ethernet adapter I can get, so I could just install Samba or something and move files over?

Since people are so quick to ignore this point....

[Anonymous Coward]

Here is a better idea, since everyone claims that apple is the king of design, why doesn't apple actually design their mp3 players so that you can easily swap the battery without the risk of having to purchase an unofficial kit, needing to screw around with your mp3 player to replace the battery, and having the risk of damaging your $300+ mp3 player?

Re:considerably tweaked?

[Anonymous Coward]

It may not affect how they sound. But for a jogger in New Yok City, it certainly affects how likely you are to get mugged.
Personally, I use black Shure headphones. Way more expensive, but muggers can't tell the difference. ;-)

Market-speak

[cinderful]

It's a marketing choice.

It sounds better to say that the 20GB and 40GB have dropped in price instead of saying the 15GB and 20GB capacities have been increased to 20GB and 40GB.

Plus, it removes confusion of what happened to the original 40GB.

"And the 40GB capacity has been increased to being discontinued"
(There's going to be a 60GB soon, I'm sure, just not now)

Re:Market-speak

[Rodrin]

Actually Apple denies that there will be a 60gb model. It's on ipod lounge, and I'm too lazy to lookup and paste the link.

20GB Just $269 @ Apple Online Education Store

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget if you go to high school, college or work in any sort of school, you qualify for getting the exact same 20GB iPod for just $269 and the 40GB model for $369.

iPod works great on Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

I've had a 10gb 2nd generation (Windows) iPod for two years. It works fantastic with Linux. All I needed was a firewire adapter and a newer kernel. (2.4 to start with, now 2.6). I've recently moved to gtkpod and it works great. With the right kernel options, you can have it installed and working in no time.

Son of a...

[Aqua_Geek]

I just bought a 15GB 3G iPod at WWDC - they were selling them at the Apple campus store for 15% off. Thank you Apple for giving me the satisfaction of being up-to-date for 3 weeks.

I can't believe Apple didn't have the update for older iPods include the improved battery life. That sure would have smoothed over the blow of paying $250 for a 15GB iPod when now I can get a 20GB with 50% more battery life for close to that price.

Re:Son of a...

[xoff00]

I can't believe Apple didn't have the update for older iPods include the improved battery life.

The improved battery life is almost certainly a HARDWARE change. How the hell are you supposed to update that?

Oh, that was answered earlier as well. A firmware upgrade for old iPods is available, for around $300-$400, at the Apple Store...and you get a replacement headset, free!

Re:Son of a...

[Aqua_Geek]

No, it's not a hardware change.

From the Newsweek Article: Coast-to-coasters rejoice: the new iPods are rated for 12 hours of rockin' between charges--a 50 percent boost in battery life. This is accomplished, Apple says, not by a heavier battery but diligent conservation of power.

Re:Son of a...

[groke]

of course, if it impossible to conserve power by using components with lower consumption, or setting up hardware low-power modes, etc, etc.

HOT CAKES

[Anonymous Coward]

Jesus Christ, look at the number of bots in here that repeat the words HOT CAKES over and fucking over. Get some creativity.

Re:considerably tweaked?

[djtripp]

Even the best, and most efficient player would get you 1 day of listening, so it's a moot point. Sure 6-8 hours is enough for some, not enought for others. There are options, like the snap on battery pack. But it for sure will out last a laptop battery. And if you are sly, you could "demo" your iPod on the plane for some one with a FW port and suck up their battery...

Wired remote as Insurance

[CaptainFlyingToaster]

While it does provide "partial functionality," I see my wired remote as a fantastic insurance policy. I'm a bike commuter, and I've already destroyed one ipod by having it fall off of my belt while I was cruising along at 24km/h. With the wired remote I can select my playlist and stash my iPod safely in my messenger bag, without giving up the ability to skip tracks or adjust volume.

Also, using the wired remote and black headphones (as opposed to the white OEM earbuds) could reduced your profile to would-be muggers.

Re:considerably tweaked?

[iamacat]

In this case, I don't see how even 20 hour battery life would be optimium. What she needs is a player with regular batteries and a box of Duracell ultra.

Re:considerably tweaked?

[iamacat]

Try a cross country flight with one stopover.

Don't you want to try something else on the flight, like I don't know, browsing a magazine or shopping during a stopover? Personally my ears hurt after 6 hours with headphones and my brain hurts from listening to the same book for so long.

that kettle sure is black

[Anonymous Coward]

In other words, what you're saying is, "I need that functionality, so I believe everyone else will need it too."

Not everyone lives their life with the constant need to listen to over 6 hours of music and the inability to recharge, and those who don't appreciate every ounce and dollar saved by not using larger or more exotic batteries.

Re:that kettle sure is black

[KevinKnSC]

That's not what I said at all. If you don't want to spend money on battery life, then don't. Buy a cheaper model with a smaller battery. But don't sit there and argue that nobody needs that functionality, just because you don't need it yourself.

Re:that kettle sure is black

[Anonymous Coward]

"That's not what I said at all"
no more than the post you originally replied to said their needs superceded all others.

"If you don't want to spend money on battery life, then don't"
i feel so much better now that i have your permission.

"Buy a cheaper model with a smaller battery"
or... if it suits my needs, just buy the one that the op was ditching about.

"But don't sit there and argue that nobody needs that functionality, just because you don't need it yourself"
where was it, that i made that argument? for someone who whines about being misconstrued, you seem to be putting an awful lot of words into other folk's mouths.

Re:that kettle sure is black

[KevinKnSC]

First, the OP didn't state that his needs superceded all others, and neither did I. The OP did, however, question why anyone would ever need more than 6 hours of battery life, because he couldn't imagine being gone that long without a car charger or power outlet. Look at his (your?) replies to the people that came up with good examples for cases where longer battery life would be nice. He suggests that people wouldn't really want to listen to more than six hours of music on a long plane trip, just because he wouldn't want to. He suggests that someone in a mud hut use disposable batteries instead of the longer-lasting rechargable battery they want. All of these boil down to "I don't see the need for that, so I question your need for it." This attitude is what my original post was pointing out. Never did I suggest that other people were mistaken for not having the same needs as me--something the OP did repeatedly.

What about gapless and crossfade playback?

[will-el]

Look, I love my iPod as much as anyone, but I
would have thought by the 4th generation they would have added gapless and crossfade playback options.
(crossfade playback with beatmatching and auto-pitch adjust can wait for 5th generation...)

IAWTP

[Anonymous Coward]

I Agree With This Post.

It's not about capacity

[Anonymous Coward]

It's about space and cach'e- specifically about how much space it takes up in your pocket or your armband, and how cool it looks.

The Slashdot crowd cares about storage space, but Jane Winecooler doesn't give a flip about storage space. If 4GB is enough for all of her songs, or all of her favorite playlists, it doesn't matter that she can get five times the space for $50 more.

If you don't NEED five times the space, but you really want a credit-card sized, pastel, cutesy wutesy player, you're gonna get it.

FLAC

[halfelven]

Where's the FLAC support? Hello? Apple? Anyone?...

Re:OGG Vorbis, what does it take to get the suppor

[Anonymous Coward]

I mean what does it take for us to get the OGG support into iPod?

How many iPods are right now rotting on Apple Store shelves because people are going into the store and pointedly asking "But does it support Ogg Vorbis"? Call that number x. (No, you've got x way too high there. You're including people who wouldn't mind Ogg support, but bought an iPod anyway. And you're including people who would never buy an iPod. You must ignore all of them. x consists solely of the set of people who have no iPod solely because of Ogg. The money is burning a hole in their pocket but this one point is a deal breaker for them. That's x.)

Now figure out how much profit Apple sees from each iPod. Call that number y.

Finally, figure out the amount of money it would cost Apple to code Ogg Vorbis support, add it to new iPods, produce firmware upgrades for older iPods, document it, and support it. Call that number z. I'm sorry, you've got z as zero. That's just a lie. I expected better of you. Try again.

(Perhaps you think they wouldn't need to document it. This is because you are wrong. At a minimum there would have to be internal documentation on this new iPod feature, for reference by Apple engineers.)

(Perhaps you also think they wouldn't need to support it. This is because you are misguided. Apple will pay more money for adding Ogg support, whether it is in paying for official support or it is in paying for PR to put out fires because "unofficial" support is "okay". Because, well, let's say there's "unofficial" "unsupported" Ogg in iPod version 5. And that it has some bugs in it -- clicks and pops in playback, or lost metadata, or, well, anything less than perfectly flawless operation. Can you say with a straight face that you'd be perfectly happy with clicks and pops through your entire music collection, because you specifically said it was okay if Ogg capability was unofficial and unsupported?)

Now, let us know what you think the values for x, y, and z are. Are you sure your numbers are honest? Really? Okay, now multiply x by y. How much bigger is it than z? A few thousand dollars? A few tens of thousands?

If you can produce a compelling case for x*y-z being bigger than, say, the cost savings if Apple switches from Coke to Safeway Cola in its vending machines, then let's talk.

Inflexible?

[Onan]

Out of curiosity, what's inflexible about "AAC (16 to 320 Kbps), MP3 (32 to 320 Kbps), MP3 VBR, Audible, AIFF, Apple Lossless and WAV", and a tendency for more formats to become supported over time? It might not include a format you specifically want (vorbis or flac, I suppose?), but "inflexible" seems like an odd way to characterize it.

Screw Apple

[blunte]

My 2.5 month old 40GB iPod never had 8hr battery life as advertized. It's typically 5hours on a "complete" charge.

So I paid the $499 for it, and now 2.5 months later it is worth 40% less. Thanks Apple. Who would have guessed an iPod would depreciate faster than a car.

Re:Screw Apple

[nyssa]

Hi-tech consumer electronics have bad investments for several years now. I always tell people to make electronics buying decisions based on the current capabilities and the current price. Don't worry about what you will be able to buy tomorrow if today's device does what you need today at a price that you're willing to pay today, because you can be pretty sure that in a few months, you will be able to find a better deal.

Re:Screw Apple

[gnucurry]

I can't believe they let people like you ON here! Imagine! Be happy with your purchase! FAH!! FAH!!!! ...... ... FAH!!!

Re:Screw Apple

[blunte]

I didn't expect it to be an investment, but I did ignorantly expect it to have close to the advertized 8 hour battery life.

Quickly I've discovered that it has a much lower useful battery life, plus Apple just happily dropped the price $100 while reportedly increasing the battery life to 12 hours. That's just insult to injury.

Re:Screw Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

Who would have guessed an iPod would depreciate faster than a car.

Pretty much anyone who works with technology?

Re:Screw Apple

[__aafkqj3628]

You don't expect them to be able to provide you 8 hours of life no matter what you are doing, do you?

The battery life is incredibly dependent on what you do with your iPod - Do you use the backlight? What kind of songs (compression) do you play? How much do you skip through songs? How much does the HDD spin? Do you use the equaliser settings? What kind of charge cycle do you use?

All Apple does is assume the best possible conditions and combine that with what the battery should provide in theory.

(BTW, if your battery holds less than 50% charge, Apple will replace it for free (within warranty)).

Re:Screw Apple

[__aafkqj3628]

That's just insult to injury.

That's got to be one of Apple's trademarks - Whenever you buy a product, you can be sure that within two months, there's a new model for less than you bought.

It's the changing rate of technology, and you can't expect them to hold back just so that you can feel you got your money's worth.

Re:Screw Apple

[blunte]

Why does everyone miss the point?

If my iPod lasted close to the 8 hours advertized I wouldn't be so disappointed. Of course, I guess I should assume this new "12 hour" iPod will really do about 8.5 hours.

Basically it's about Apple constantly overstating the performance of their products. All existing Apple products underperform. If this were Microsoft people would be calling for lawsuits. Both MS and Apple promise more than they deliver. But Apple is the underdog, so that's ok for them?

Re:Screw Apple

[__aafkqj3628]

Basically it's about Apple constantly overstating the performance of their products. All existing Apple products underperform. If this were Microsoft people would be calling for lawsuits. Both MS and Apple promise more than they deliver. But Apple is the underdog, so that's ok for them?

No. It's not OK, they just have a better marketing dept. and reliance on Steve Jobs' Reality Distortion Field.

Remember your CDs!

[Anonymous Coward]

"When it comes to music I would sell my soul for good quality/bitrate."

Then listen to CD's.

Seriously. I'm all for having the lossy compression scheme be as good as it can be. But when you're bopping down the street or doing whatever requires you to have portable music then just put up with the inferiority.

If you have to have the quality then you want a CD player. Really and if you need the portability then (at least in my case) carrying around a nice big assed pair of senheisers or grados (+ something that can drive them!) that have the resolving power to show off some quality pretty much negates the coolness of having something so small that holds so much music.

compressed music coming from you computer is kinda cool. Compressed music coming from a tiny portable thing that holds a shitpot full of music is cooler.

But don't sell your CDs short. (presuming your home stereo is up to it) They sound much better than MP3's. The analog section of a good CD player way outperforms they analog section of the average sound board.

CD's sound so much SMOOTHER. The texture of each sound is much silkier. If your main stereo is worth more than $500 you can probably hear the difference (of course this sort of thing is so hard to make statements about). Go on back and check it out!

cross fader or gapless?

[dcgaber]

I would really like to not have a second or two pause between my mp3 tracks, particularly when listening to live shows or dj mixes that just sound stupid with that little gap. Am I missing something and is this currently possible? Or is Apple just not going to support this (what I consider) must have feature?

Re:considerably tweaked?

[weekendgeek]

I usually am reading (tech articles, exam books, or even a good bit of fiction when I want to unwind) while listening to music. It tends to make the flight go by a little faster. As for the headphones, I'm not sure which is more uncomfortable: Headphones for 6 hours, or listening to the screaming kid 3 rows away.

Also, I do not listen to the ipod when in the terminal. The battery would never make it to the next flight.

It's so funny that someone asks for an example where someone could use more than 6 hours worth of battery, people reply, and then someone comes along to debunk that reason. Whatever. To each their own.

Re:Still not such a great deal

[jannesha]

And now, even Apple will deal with the battery for you:

http://www.apple.com/batteries/replacements.html

"If it is out of warranty, Apple offers a battery replacement for $99."

Okay.

[Onan]

Fine.
Done.
Here you go.

Does this mean we get to stop listening to you whine now?

Life-saving feature? Yes, in tornado country

[AHumbleOpinion]

Having a built-in radio receiver would be nice, but I'd hardly call it a "must-have, life-saving" feature

Think about folks living in tornado country.

Re:Life-saving feature? Yes, in tornado country

[commodoresloat]

They live in trailer parks. You think they can afford iPods?

I actually tried that!

[raygundan]

I actually toyed with doing this. It didn't work too badly, although playing the record faster seemed to make noise worse and clip the high-end a tad. (I would *guess* this is because I raised the top end frequency above either the output of my turntable or the input of my soundcard's frequency response threshold.)

Add to that the fact that it really only saved time on the one part of the process I could already do unattended-- the recording, while adding work to the part that takes most of the "you have to be there" time-- the editing and cleanup.

It ended up taking more of my time. The best way seemed to be to set up a timed recording for roughly the record length (add 5 or 10 mins to be sure) and just let it play a whole side. Most of my records could be split on visually obvious song gaps in a wav editor and then labelled and encoded. Shortening the part where I record the audio didn't save anything-- I already wasn't sitting there waiting for it. But it did add a sample-rate change to my editing process, and a bit of signal degradation.

Re:20gb = no dock (and then some)

[Reverant]

Note how NONE of the iPods have a remote or a carrying case as standard anymore. They are both extras, thus the price drop.

yes, you can get that engraving...

[SethJohnson]

Put single quotes around the entire phrase. It will work.

As in: 'Bad Motherfucker'

Re:OGG Vorbis, what does it take to get the suppor

[kc8jhs]

How long am I gonna have to wait to buy my copy of "The Matrix" on Beta?

-Mikey P

Re:OGG Vorbis, what does it take to get the suppor

[chegosaurus]

> Sooo... you've got about as much spine as cooked spaghetti?

I've got the balls to post on Slashdot as a non-anonymous user! :-)

arg you spoiled our fun

[real_smiff]

oops! 'Bad Motherfucker' was OK, until Apple engineers on /. saw your post!

(hehe, i don't know, maybe it'll still work ;).

MOD DOWN!!

[Anonymous Coward]

This dickhead obviously doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. iPod is better than everything, end of discussion, I win.

Steve Jobs is the Devil

[Snaggy]

or at least he is in our JoT comic iPod Madness. :-)

We've nicknamed him "Stevil".

DUMBASS

[Anonymous Coward]

What a fucking dumbass. Let us count the ways in which Chris is dumb, shall we?

1. Apple did not develop AAC. The MPEG consortium did. Apple chose it because they liked its quality.

2. AAC has no DRM built into it. Apple added FairPlay on top of AAC for their iTunes Music Store DRM.

3. You are a dumbass.

Buy 4G or 3G(with accessories) 20GB?

[TMacPhail]

What a debate... I can get a 3G ipod for $5 more than a 4G but it includes the dock, remote, and belt clip. Is the 50% more battery life, changed controls, and $5 cheaper worth the loss of accessories?

Actually Hotcake Sales are brisk

[cdf12345]

No shit!

Re:I, Pod

[gnucurry]

Tough, emotionally disturbed cop Will Smith, you mean.

Re:OGG Vorbis, what does it take to get the suppor

[saitoh]

If you want ogg support, get an iriver h120 (or better yet) a rio karma. They have ogg support that works well (granted the karma is the only one of the two which has gapless support), as they are the companies that are targeting that small segment of ogg users.

Marketing is part of the decision here, the other thing is probably ROI which might just be too little to do an implimentation of ogg support on their mobile system.

Its like the matrix for CPUs (pick 2 of the three, but never all three):

low heat/power consumption
uber-fast
really cheap

You cant be really trendy and really nerdy at the same time, and still be part of the majority.

- Page

time stretching

[hermes369]

any ideas on why/how timestretching is available only to audiobook files? I teach classical ballet and often need to alter the tempo of a recorded track (usually only solo piano) to suit the needs of the combination I'm teaching. Is this possible? If so, I've just found a way to clear out several pounds of CDs from my bag. Thanks, B.

Re:time stretching

[Anonymous Coward]

Any AAC file with the extension .M4B is treated as an audiobook by the iPod, so you should just be able to import your song from CD as an .AAC file, change the extension, and be able to enjoy the timestretching feature. Good luck!

15GB iPod $250 + free shipping

[Kufat]

An actual price drop! eCOST has them for that price.

(There's no referral ID in that link, btw. I just happened to see this in their e-mail newsletter.)

AAC and MP3 aren't patent-free

[tepples]

First off, AAC, the standard that iTunes compresses to, is an open standard based on mpeg 4.

AAC may be "open" in the ISO sense, but it isn't "free" in the GNU sense because of subsisting patents in the markets where Apple operates. MP3 is in precisely the same situation. AIFF and WAV, the other formats you mentioned, don't have acceptable data rates without putting a ridiculously low brickwall filter on the high frequencies. Which patent-free 128 kbps-class audio codec does the iPod player play again?

iPod music database; AAC and MP3 patents

[tepples]

The iPod acts like a regular hard drive in an enclosure. There is no need to have iTunes or even a Mac or a Windows box. You can access the filesystem directly and copy your files over.

As far as I know, though an iPod unit's hard drive will store any files, its music player will recognize only those files that have been added to the player's database. Last time I checked, Apple provides no Linux software to update the database nor technical specifications to help the free software community create such software. I'm not so sure that the reverse engineers who developed and published GNUpod will always be able to keep up with the database format changes that come with each new version of iPod firmware.

There are freely available m4a and mp3 encoders out there

It's illegal to use LAME in the United States of America because nobody paid RCA. AAC (the codec used in .m4a files) is also patented. What other lossy format can the iPod play, and no, I don't mean severely downsampled mono AIFF/WAV?

how exactly does the iPod lock you into any platform you don't want to use?

Does the iTunes software run under Wine?

What DRM, aside from the music store?

There exist exclusive rights other than copyrights, such as the trade secret rights and anti-circumvention rights encumbering the format of the internal database and the patent rights encumbering both lossy codecs that the iPod can play.

Re:iPod music database; AAC and MP3 patents

[nuggetman]

You people seriously baffle me sometimes. You seriously think Uncle Sam is gonna come knocking on your door because you use LAME inside the USA? Trust me, I doubt you'll be the first.

As for trade secrets, anti-circumvention rights, etc, what exactly do you plan to DO with your iPod? Install a Linux iPod manager, copy your files in your format of choice (from AAC/MP3/aiff/wav/etc) and just listen to your damn music.

The government doesn't give a shit how you encode your music, or how you listen to it.

Re:iPod music database; AAC and MP3 patents

[tepples]

You seriously think Uncle Sam is gonna come knocking on your door because you use LAME inside the USA?

RIAA labels may enlist the aid of Thomson, the exclusive MP3 patent sublicensor in the United States, to crack down on unlawful file sharing using a two-pronged attack. Reasoning is that if they can't win on copyright infringement, they might win on patent infringement.

As for trade secrets, anti-circumvention rights, etc, what exactly do you plan to DO with your iPod? Install a Linux iPod manager

The very act of installing a Linux iPod manager may violate the DMCA, as the iPod/iTunes combination may act as a technical measure that effectively controls access to the iPod's copyrighted firmware.

still no queue funtion

[gestalt_boy]

Unfortunately, it looks like Apple still hasn't put in ability to queue up songs on-the-fly, i.e. passing around an ipod at a party and having guests queue up songs while it's playing. Dunno, maybe they could add a double-click to the play/pause button to enable queueing.

What medium?

[tepples]

I was just trying to point out a way to avoid manually inserting and removing 700 CDs. If you had them handy in FLAC (or WAV, etc...)

How can one keep 490 GB of data (700 CDs * 0.7 GB per CD) "handy"?

Re:What medium?

[That's Unpossible!]

How can one keep 490 GB of data (700 CDs * 0.7 GB per CD) "handy"?

105 DVDs?

Re:What medium?

[balamw]

Actually more like 52 DVDs if you assume FLAC gives you ~50% compression.

Also, how many CDs really have 74 minutes of music on them? If it's anything like my collection the average is closer to 40 minutes/pressed CD, reducing the number of DVDs by another factor of 2 (i.e. 26 DVDs).

Not bad, you end up with something close to a ~25X space compression this way assuming on average 50% space savings each from FLAC and half-full discs and the 6x capacity of the DVD vs. CD-R.

I'm actually doing this for my ~650 disc collection myself and the approach holds up fairly well.

B

Why is the battery life better?

[ejbgrinder]

I haven't read anywhere which changes actually contribute to a better battery life. Is it smarter firmware that makes the disk spin less frequently or for shorter durations? Is the chipset less power hungry? Is the headphone amp more efficient (or -oh no!- less powerful?) Thoughts?

FAAC is illegal

[tepples]

It is illegal to use the FAAC encoder in the United States for at least the next decade. I don't think grandparent wants to go to jail.

The Matrix on Beta

[tepples]

Betamax? The only thing it had over VHS was better sound and a slightly cleaner picture. If you want better picture and sound than VHS or Betamax, then buy an el-cheapo DVD player for $40 at Wal-Mart.

Or are you a broadcaster who's talking about one of the Betacam formats? You'll have to wait your turn, as it takes a while for a 1999 movie to make it down to the point where broadcast networks can pick it up, and it'll take even longer if you're not a WB affiliate.

QTComponents

[tepples]

Adding OGG support to iPod also means that Apple would have to add it to QuickTime for OSX and Windows so that iTunes works with it correctly.

Ogg containers and Vorbis audio in QuickTime? Done.

Caching the next 100 songs

[tepples]

Well it almost could. When the user is tracking back and forth through a playlist, the player could cache the first 5 seconds of each song in the playlist; at 128 kbps, that's 80 KB per song. Then, once the user has settled on a song, cache the next five or so songs.

How much does 60 GB of music cost?

[tepples]

Or 4) There isn't much of a market for 60 GB, given that at 128 kbps AAC, 60 GB nominally represents over $10,000 worth of iTMS purchases or CD purchases.

Re:How much does 60 GB of music cost?

[millia]

actually, i almost posted that i was disappointed no announcement of the 60- i'd love to have one, so i could have almost all my cd collection with me at one time. i could suffer with only 5/6 of my collection at one time- or 2/3 and a very very handy 10 gigs free for backup purposes.
but i wouldn't have to pick and choose about which johnny cash to put on, or which residents albums to leave off, or which set of shostakovich string quartets to have on.
given the fact that they bought the 60 gig drives already, i suspect *they're* thinking of a market for something, ipod or not. but my money's on an ipod.

Re:How much does 60 GB of music cost?

[millia]

and courtesy of macrumors:
it's for the new imacs.
apparently, they're 4200 rpm drives- and while that's not ideally as fast as one would want, if you're squeezing for space, that's one solution...

Re:OGG Vorbis, what does it take to get the suppor

[billatq]

If you have ogg support setup in quicktime, iTunes will conveniently offer to convert it all to aac for you, letting you load it onto the iPod. It's a tradeoff, but the quality hasn't been too bad so far. (coming from someone else with a significantly sized collection of oggs)

Free iPods for college kids?

[gwoodrow]

Someone may have already mentioned this, and if so - I apologize. But I noticed this in another article on the topic of the new iPods - it seems that incoming Duke University freshmen will be receiving iPods pre-loaded with "Duke University content." How frickin' cool is this?

Re:considerably tweaked?

[TrickyNik2004]

Not entirely true. I have a minidisc player that gets around 40 hours of playtime from a AA battery. I love my ipod, but when it comes down to durability or battery life, my minidisc player wins every time.

Re:considerably tweaked?

[Anonymous Coward]

You bet you can! I bought some headphones at Target for about $4. They work fine with the iPod. And they're not white!

Re:considerably tweaked?

[djtripp]

Oh yeah, my sister had one of those, and when i asked her, how much time she got with one AAA, she said "tons." Suprising, it is a spinning an optical disc, but perhaps it doesn't need the RPM's HDD based players require. But then the draw back (esp if you don't have a Mini Disk dubbing system) is the time to make a Mix Disk.

If you think the iPod is expensive...

[djtripp]

Check out the Oakley Thump

Only $395 for the 128mb version and $495 for the 256 version. I still think the combination of an iPod with a pair of Oakleys is cooler, and less expensive...

EDU deal is $19 for the 20gb iPod, after rebate

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple's new promo for EDU (students, faculty, and staff) knocks $200 off an iPod, by way of a mail-in rebate, with the purchase of a new PowerBook or iBook. The EDU price on the 20gb iPod is roughly $269. I'm already planning on buying the new 12" iBook, and am now looking forward to getting a new 20gb iPod for $19 after rebate.

Woo-hoo...

Has anyone actually gotten one yet?

[amper]

I called the local Apple store (Marlton, NJ) at 10:00 am this morning. I was told "we don't have them, and we don't know when we're getting them". Now, the Cherry Hill, NJ area is one of the more affluent communities in the US, so I would have thought that Apple would have made an effort to get them here?

According to the Apple WWW site availability is:

"Instant gratification available at an Apple retail store or an iPod reseller near you."

And Apple's press release states:

"The new iPod is available immediately..."

Oh, well. I just had my favorite Apple VAR order me a 40GB. I even have permission from She Who Must Be Obeyed because She now gets my Original, First Generation, 5GB iPod for her car...

Re:Still not such a great deal

[ePhil_One]

Obviously, if a documentary is made about something people should believe as gospel truth.

And never expect the situation to change. Apple, being a "corporation" is unable to find well advertised flaws in a product and change corporate policies in response. Therefore, a problem that existed 3 years ago must still exist today.

Conversely, if that flaw does not exist today, it is empiricaly obvious that the flaw never existed, and anyone who says it did is a big fat liar.

The "documentary" includes a recorded segment from the tech support call. Obviously it could have been faked, but what is the motivation for the documentary makers to fake that call? It could have been a stunt to pad their resume (they were film students), it could have been a stealth ad campaign by Apple to spread the word about the existance of those replament battery programs, it might have been a campaign by the alternative battery companies, which seemed to have products out pretty quickly. At this point any evidence either way could be easily faked, and it boils down to the only people who would care are those that might have paid for the refurbished units; which seem oddly quiet on the whole thing.

Wrong!

[Ohreally_factor]

Wrong! Cowboy Neal! What is best?

Cowboy Neal: To crush your enemies! To see them driven before you, and hear the lamentation of the women!

Re:OGG Vorbis, what does it take to get the suppor

[Ohreally_factor]

Dude, study some biology. Cooked Spaghetti is an invertaebrate, because filleting is part of the cooking process. You're thinking of raw carrots.

iFLAC?

[commodoresloat]

Is there FLAC for Mac? I would love to do this with my music library but I don't know where to start. Can QuickTime play FLAC with a plugin (like ogg)? Can iTunes recognize FLAC files?

Re:iFLAC?

[raygundan]

FLAC for Macs (and Linux, Windows, Amiga, Irix, and Solaris).

As to iTunes, I don't think it supports FLAC directly, but there seems to be some effort to write a plugin, and a couple of workaround methods currently. I *know* the iPod doesn't.

MOD PARENT THE HELL UP

[Anonymous Coward]

That's so fucking funny I spit tequila out my nostrils.

Hard drives.

[raygundan]

Well, for starters, that's why I suggested FLAC. Lossless compression, with about 60% filesize. So now we're down to 490 * .6 = 294 GB. I suspect it would be much better than that due simply to the fact that most CDs are not "filled to the brim" at 700MB.

The hard drive space (2 * 160GB drives) to hold that costs a whopping $220-- a tiny investment compared to the cost of your 700 CDs (700 * $8 = $5600, and that's a lowball estimate), and the value of your time to spend recompressing them. Assuming it takes you 30 seconds of time per CD, you will spend nearly six hours reencoding the discs each time. (and that's extrememly lowball, too) Not to mention the issue of using your originals as a "backup."

If you're in college and poor, the six hours may be less valuable to you than the $220. I was there once, too-- but I couldn't afford $5600 worth of CDs, either.

But hey, if you enjoy reencoding, and not having a lossless, separate backup of your originals-- knock yourself out.

Re:Hard drives.

[tepples]

The hard drive space (2 * 160GB drives) to hold that costs a whopping $220

Is that price for external USB 2.0 hard drives, or for 3.5" ATA drives that won't fit in a laptop?

If you're in college and poor

Worse. I'm out of college and still poor because I keep getting rejected after interviewing for IT job after IT job in my home town.

Re:Hard drives.

[raygundan]

Fair enough-- the price was for ATA drives, no luck for you on the laptop. But it's STILL going to be insignificant compared to your stupendous investment in CDs. Of course, in your current situation, spending *any* money is probably not a good idea.

At newegg.com, two 160GB ATA drives are going to run you $180. (I estimated a little high last time-- actual price for one drive is $89.50)

A USB 2.0 external enclosure for IDE drives is $28.99. Call it $30 for easy math, and buy two of them-- and we're at $240 total. Not a huge difference.

'Grouping' tags now recognized by iPod

[Ineffable 27]

When you update your 3rd gen iPod to software version 2.2, it will now recognize playlists that depend on the 'Grouping' tag introduced in iTunes 4.5. This must be part of what is meant by 'compatibility with iTunes 4.5' in the release notes.

Re:considerably tweaked?

[OS24Ever]

Mine's a 2G 20 gigger. I've read some complaints that the 3Gs actually had shorter life than the 2Gs, not sure what caused it.

For a while battery life sucked on the iPod I had, but then they updated something to do with the clock and it was fine after that.

NOT TRUE

[Anonymous Coward]

IT WORKS ON THE MINI

Actually, it IS true

[Shinzaburo]

Yeah, well, thanks for coming out, but what I said has been already confirmed by executives at Apple: the "updates" for the previous iPods (including your precious iPod Mini) do not include any of the advanced software functionality added to the 4G iPods:

* Shuffle songs with one click
* Create multiple On-The-Go playlists
* Delete songs from On-The-Go playlists
* Select reading playback speed for audiobooks
* Hear the clicker user interface sound through headphones

So, really, please check your facts first. If you know something we don't, perhaps you should provide some evidence instead of spewing information-free statements such as "it works."

Oh, and while I'm issuing thank-you's, thanks for shouting.

And I almost forgot: A final thank-you is also owed to you for modding my post down as overrated. The most hilarious part is that you then posted in the thread, invalidating your subtracted mod point and adding it back to my rating.

In sum, please do yourself a favor and go buy a clue. I hear they're on special at Target. :)