Student Given Detention For Using Firefox [UPDATED]

An anonymous reader writes "Several sites are reporting that a student has been given detention for using Firefox to do his classwork. No, really. The student was in class, working on an assignment that necessitated using a browser. The teacher instructed him to stop using Firefox and to do his classwork, to which the student responded that he was doing his classwork using a 'better' browser (it is unclear whether the computer was the student's own computer or not). The clueless teacher (who called the rogue program 'Firefox.exe') ordered him to detention." Update: 12/17 20:09 by SM One of the school officials was nice enough to contact us and let us know this is a hoax. If you are planning on calling the school please refrain from doing so, I'm sure they have had enough excitement for one day.

Comments

OSS is evil.

[jez9999]

The teacher was right. We have to stop this communism right here, right now!

Re:OSS is evil.

[ArcherB]

The teacher was right.

Well, the teacher was right... and wrong.

First, the teacher was wrong for not knowing what FireFox (FoxFire) is. Any teacher with a computer in the classroom should have AT LEAST that level of knowledge.

Second, the teacher was right in assigning detention. The teacher is in charge and has the right to tell the students what they can and can't run on school computers. If a student is running an application and the teacher tells the student to close it, the student needs to close it, period, end of story. It's no different in the real world. If an IT director tells you shut down Cain&Able, you can get fired if you don't. It doesn't matter that the IT director doesn't know what Cain&Able is.

Re:OSS is evil.

[Archangel Michael]

I work in School District IT, and can assure you that teachers decide what is in the classrooms, not IT. If the Teachers want something, IT is charged with making it happen.

However, teachers aren't absolute in their dictations, as IT is able to make recommendations, and express concerns (support, helpdesk resposibility etc) .

Re:OSS is evil.

[morgan_greywolf]

What IT people? Maybe a University has an IT person, but most K-12 institutions in the U.S. have no dedicated IT person. Usually the "IT person" is just a teacher very knowledgeable about computers -- and is usually one of the teachers teaching computer programming classes. There's usually not a lot of formal IT policies, either. But I do know one thing -- the teacher, as a member of the faculty, is a representative of the school. If it was indeed a school-owned computer, the teacher has every right to order the student to run this or that or not run this or that on the school computer.

And the TFA is unclear about whether this was a student-owned computer or a school computer.

Re:OSS is evil.

[hedwards]

I don't agree, it sounds like the program was already installed on the computer, and that the teacher didn't order it removed from the computer. Which is moot because teachers don't get to make those decisions anyway, that is the responsibility of the IT department in conjunction with the administrative staff to determine, since it was unlikely to have been installed by the student, one would have to assume that it was previously vetted.

This teacher is the type I ran into all the time in school myself, the petty tyrant type. I would be shocked if the reason was using an installed program rather than a need to assert power over a student that was thinking in a way that was unusual. Or admitting that the teacher doesn't actually know how to teach the subject.

Of course that is speculative, and the letter doesn't actually mention the student installing the program or who owned the computer in the first place.

Re:OSS is evil.

[XHIIHIIHX]

1) The teacher was telling the student * not to run an executable that was already installed on the computer *. Either the machine is locked down or it isn't. Obviously this machine is not at all locked down 2) The teacher told the student to use "IE". Having a student run IE on a networked, non locked-down computer is nearly criminal. This school has much larger issues. How many parents want the russian mafia knowing every detail of what their little one's are doing online while attending high school at Big Springs Highschool in Pennsylvania?

Re:OSS is evil.

[DaSniper]

What IT People? You gotta be kidding me. My K-12 school of 500 students (my graduating class was 25 people) had a dedicated IT person. All questions about software running on the computer went through him. I worked for him my senior year. So schools that don't have IT people are schools that are interested in high technical understanding of todays world.

Re:OSS is evil.

[kdemetter]

If Firefox was installed on the school computers , then i see no reason not to use it .
Unless the teachers is completely blind , he can see the web page the student is looking at , and can judge from that wether or not he is doing his work .

This is like a teacher telling you to copy every file in a folder , and because he only knows how to do that by right click-copy-paste , you get detention for using Ctrl-A - Ctrl-C - Ctrl-V .

It's a silly example , but it's just the same .

Re:OSS is evil.

[fm6]

It's no different in the real world. If an IT director tells you shut down Cain&Able, you can get fired if you don't.

It is different in the real world. If an IT department wants to control what gets run, it locks down the system. It's true that there are still things you can do that might get you fired, but it's not like a school, where you have your teacher always looking over your shoulder.

This is a situation that was around long before there were computers: a stupid teacher issuing stupid orders and expecting a student (an adolescent!) to obey without question. You think that makes sense, because the stupid teacher is a teacher. Good luck with that!

Re:OSS is evil.

[elrous0]

Exactly, schools aren't there to teach creativity, they're supposed to teach conformity and acceptance. And I damn sure want to keep it that way because I'm creative, I like my job security, and I need schools to churn out people to fix my plumbing so I don't have to crawl around under my house. I would hope my fellow /.ers would feel the same.

Re:OSS is evil.

[h4rm0ny]

The teacher is in charge and has the right to tell the students what they can and can't run on school computers. If a student is running an application and the teacher tells the student to close it, the student needs to close it, period, end of story

So the lesson to be taught in the class room is that obedience is more important than being right? I disagree with that principle. The child should stick to his guns. Setting obedience above being right leads to a seriously damaged society.

Re:OSS is evil.

[gt_mattex]

This entire story is possibly based on erroneous information.

http://www.bigspring.k12.pa.us/news.php?action=view_article&article_id=2130

Re:OSS is evil.

[KevMar]

Not only did the teacher have the right to tell him what program to use, the detention is for not listening to the teacher. I dont care if he was looking at porn or wikipedia. He still has to fallow her instructions.

If the kid was smart, he would have alt + tab over to IE or just said "yes mam" and closed it.

The kid did load unauthorized software. But thats a different story in this situation.

Re:OSS is evil.

[MightyYar]

Some schools are getting rid of art and gym teachers. If it comes down to art vs IT, IT should lose. I'm a pretty big geek, but computers aren't all that integral to elementary education.

Re:OSS is evil.

[morgan_greywolf]

Where did you go to high school? I went to two high schools, one was an exclusive Catholic college prep school, the other was a public high school. I graduated in 1990, and neither of these schools had dedicated IT staff. And I'm pretty sure neither of them do now.

Re:OSS is evil.

[goodmanj]

Parent is the only post in this thread worth reading.

Re:OSS is evil.

[cayenne8]

"My K-12 school of 500 students..."

Wow...where are you located? I've never heard of single schools that house all grades K thought 12.

It's been awhile since I was in school, but, we were broken up by grades....middle school was 6th -7th grade, jr high was 8th - 9th (something like that, I'm a little hazy about that far back), and my high school was 10-12th.

Re:OSS is evil.

[evilRhino]

Your link's message sounds like damage control PR to me.

Re:OSS is evil.

[EvanED]

I've entered a tag of "correctionavailable," but I have no clue how they actually show up.

Re:OSS is evil.

[kdemetter]

I don't buy it either .

Re:OSS is evil.

[KlomDark]

Nice sociopathic attitude.

Re:OSS is evil.

[arth1]

Indeed. It appears that the teacher here is the victim.
Even before seeing this statement from the school district, I believed this to be the case, due to most of the language being in correct English, apart from a few words and phrases with grammatical errors -- and those being the ones describing the teacher's assessment and actions.

If this being a fraud is indeed the case, I expect that the person who altered the detention letter gets expelled permanently, or, if not a student, charged with fraud and impersonation.

Re:OSS is evil.

[Essron]

ehhh, i've worked in government as well and i would expect extreme variance in policy between one school/district/county/state and the next... its definitely not a 'seen one seen 'em all' situation. you talk as if they are standardized, qualified professionals! get thee to a union shop! err, i mean, stop communism OSS or whatever.

Re:OSS is evil.

[elrous0]

Ha, more like practical. If every kid comes out of school creative and motivated to do great things, where are we going to get people to do all the shit jobs that no one wants to do? If teachers didn't suck and beat kids down, everyone would be going to college and competing with those of us who had to overcome the shit teachers and motivate OURSELVES.

Re:OSS is evil.

[mr_matticus]

What are you talking about? I haven't seen a school with just one IT person in over a decade.

Hell, the elementary school down the street has two full time IT staff members, and they are supported by an entire IT/IS department for the district should the need arise. There are networks, Internet connections, email servers, and network storage space to be maintained even at a typical middle school. There's no way one of the teachers supports the typical school in any official capacity.

As for "not a lot of formal IT policies", I suggest you're out of touch there as well. Ask a neighborhood kid to take a look at their student handbook. I imagine you'll find two or three pages of policies for the use of electronics and computers in the school.

It's 2007. Unless you live in the middle of nowhere, the school, or at the very least, the district, has a professional IT staff.

Re:OSS is evil.

[MyDixieWrecked]

That example isn't so silly.

in my 12th grade C++ class (late 90s), I had points deducted from a test for using "\n" instead of 'endl' when using 'cout'. I also had points deducted for using /* */ style comments rather than the teacher's preferred // one-line comments.

A friend of mine who was in some community college had points deducted when naming his functions and variables "just_like_this" rather than "justLikeThis" in Java.

Re:OSS is evil.

[kannibal_klown]

Where did you go to high school? I went to two high schools, one was an exclusive Catholic college prep school, the other was a public high school. I graduated in 1990, and neither of these schools had dedicated IT staff. And I'm pretty sure neither of them do now.

You sure about the "now" part? My HS went through a major shift during the mid 1990s. By the late 90's they had a decent computer lab, and an IT person. Granted the IT person was shared between 3 schools (1 HS, 2 elementary) but all 3 schools were small and the High School had the more important computer room. And I think things have grown since then.

If you graduated in 1990, then you were there during the late 1980s. That's a big difference from today. You're talking 486 CPUs and networks only being common-place in the workplace. I'd imagine any school today with any kind of decent computer room (or computer lab) has an IT guy, especially if they have a network (more-so if it also has an Internet connection). Then again, if it's a poorly funded school the Computer Science teacher admins it.

Re:OSS is evil.

[mini me]

I graduated from a small rural high school with about 600 students in the year 2000. We had an entire IT staff. Microwave data links with other schools in the region. A high speed connection to the internet (I seem to recall it being in the 40Mbps range). We had a lab full of SGI and high-end Apple computers. Strangely enough, the PCs, the ones that everyone used, were nothing to phone home about.

There was no real emphasis on technology in the curriculum though, so all that cool technology was pretty much wasted.

Re:OSS is evil.

[bugg]

I don't see what's wrong with being penalized for using "\n" instead of endl - endl is more portable, as it does not assume that \n is used for newlines. I believe endl also forces the stream to be flushed, whereas \n does not.

Re:OSS is evil.

[vidarh]

TFA is however clear about claiming that the detention was not given for installing unauthorized software, but for failing to obey an order to "get back to work", while the student claimed to be working. If that description is true, I have now qualms about calling the teacher incompetent and unreasonable.

Re:OSS is evil.

[TwilightSentry]

Except for those of us still in high school, who find your words disturbingly true.

Re:OSS is evil.

[LWATCDR]

"Your link's message sounds like damage control PR to me."
And if it was a fraud then what would they say differently?

Re:OSS is evil.

[Archangel Michael]

Well Firefox is on the list of software that is available for use in our district, but no support is offered for it. And honestly no support is needed for it. It isn't installed by default because most teachers don't know what it is, or how to use it. Those that do use it, and prefer it, can find current version available on local repository.

Like I said in another post, I find it easy to manage stuff if 1) I'm not a prick, and 2) you're not a prick. I prefer cooperation to open hostility.

Re:OSS is evil.

[Shakrai]

I graduated from a small rural high school with about 600 students in the year 2000. We had an entire IT staff. Microwave data links with other schools in the region. A high speed connection to the internet (I seem to recall it being in the 40Mbps range). We had a lab full of SGI and high-end Apple computers. Strangely enough, the PCs, the ones that everyone used, were nothing to phone home about.

As much as I'd love to play with all that hardware it seems like a real waste of money when most of our schools have more pressing concerns (like class size, old textbooks, etc). Then again, I probably shouldn't be too quick to judge, because maybe they had a grant for all that iron? If that came out of general funds though I'd say that they have some priorities mixed up .....

Re:OSS is evil.

[DrinkDr.Pepper]

I have a friend who is a public school teacher and I can assure you that teachers do not decide what is in the classroom regarding computers. If the Teachers want something, either the local Principal or the School District IT most likely says NO. If by some amazing magical coincidence both the Principal and the School District IT says yes, they are usually too busy or they assign someone too inept to install it correctly. IT is not accountable for IT failures at his school.

Re:OSS is evil.

[foobsr]

Honestly, though, aside from a BBC article about a tsunami fund hacking probe that doesn't mention user agents there's little to corroborate this.

And this assessment might apply to this very case as well. Tough time if journalism is to reach beyond the first (or second) boing.

CC.

Re:OSS is evil.

[jedidiah]

Nothing in that statement really contradicts the original story.

Of course the letter was altered. It was redacted.

I am not even sure that this statement could be considered a claim
that the original story was a hoax. At best it could be a somewhat
carefully crafted CYA statement that is meant to be taken as a
claim that the original story was a hoax.

Re:OSS is evil.

[mini me]

If that came out of general funds though I'd say that they have some priorities mixed up .....

I don't know where the funds came from, but I do know that the whole community realized benefits from having all that technology come to the area. Because there is no department of technology in government, to school board was playing that role. That's not necessarily a bad thing considering that it is publicly funded.

I say "was" because they don't seem to splurge on technology anymore. The area, despite being a farming community, was once ahead of large cities in many respects with regards to utilization of technology. But we're pretty much back in the dark ages now. It's rather unfortunate. But I guess reducing the class size by a few students is more important than the well being of the community. ;)

Re:OSS is evil.

[jedidiah]

Howabout:

        This letter circulating on the internet is a fraud. No one at this
school has been given detention for insubordination related to the use
of an alternate web browser.

        Be clear. Get to the point. Act like you're someone who teaches
other people how to communicate.

        My high school rhetoric teacher would use this in his "introduction
to rhetoric in advertising".

Re:OSS is evil.

[sumdumass]

I don't know. I have done some work with schools and it has been the way the parent suggested with an additional draw back on costs. It has to be in the budget err, the budget has to have funds to cover it.

I would think that for the most part, the teachers do have some say in how things work in their classroom. Well, unless your a sub and complain about pornographic pop ups. But then you get 40 years to think about changing the system. Thank god(tm) someone has the ability to think straight.

Re:OSS is evil.

[tom_evil]

That's not always true - school districts vary so much. I worked IT at a school running 300 - 400 OS X (Tiger) iMacs in labs and 200 - 300 G3, G4 and MacBook notebooks. All had Safari and Firefox as standard browsers. Kids would be able to use the laptops; 7th and 8th graders brought them home and pretty much did whatever they wanted with them - I know because I had to fix them.

If they did something wrong or installed unapproved software (we were very lenient - it had to be porn or something that wreaked havoc), their punishment was to be assigned an old clamshell iBook.

Now that's incentive to behave!

Re:OSS is evil.

[modecx]

And I damn sure want to keep it that way because I'm creative, I like my job security, and I need schools to churn out people to fix my plumbing so I don't have to crawl around under my house. I would hope my fellow /.ers would feel the same.

I like to crawl around under my house, you insensitive clod!

Re:OSS is evil.

[elrous0]

And risk bringing skynet online?!?! No fucking way. Humans can be surly, but at least I don't have to worry about finding a weapon to cut through a titanium-armoured battle chassis when they rebel.

Re:OSS is evil.

[jedidiah]

Also, you can always get a different boss. It can be hard but it can be done.

You are not required by law to have a boss or a (particular) employer.

High School students are effectively prisoners. They are trapped there
as a matter of law and not allowed to leave or not attend.

Re:OSS is evil.

[xhrit]

>If every kid comes out of school creative and motivated to do great things, where are we going to get people to do all the shit jobs that no one wants to do?

illegal immigrants.

Re:OSS is evil.

[TheDreadSlashdotterD]

If you're out in the sticks, it's possible to have K-12 on one campus. It doesn't make sense to build three or four schools for 200 students each.
However, if your student population density is higher, it then makes sense to have more than one campus. My high school had 1,000 or so students. The other side of the county had about 300 students in their high school. I'll never understand why they needed a separate junior high though.

Re:OSS is evil.

[KevMar]

My wife and I are from small towns. She grew up in a town of 5,472 thats 5 min away from the next town thats 27,000. And that town is 20 min away from Kansas City (447,306 people). She has a few hundred in her high school class.

To her that was a small town. She never realized what a small town was before she visted my hometown. I was giving a tour and pointed out the school and said "thats the school". What grades? All of them.

Some towns are that small that we only have one building for K-12. I had 28 in my graduating class. The school held about 360 student in a town of 2000. We drive 23 min to get to a town of 25,000 and 3.5 hours to get to a town of 225,000.

And alot of the towns away from the only interstate were smaller than that.

Re:OSS is evil.

[Sgt.Modulus]

I used to use Firefox during high school and during the first year of college. I simply ran it off the USB flash stick. It was the install folder of Firefox. I installed it at my house. Whenever I ran the thing it would bring up the import wizard because it never remembered my settings.

However, as the previous poster mentioned its NOT OK to install/run anything foreign on school computers or at your job unless allowed in the policy. It may seem harmless or can be but should you get caught you can face serious punishment. It is also in the teachers right to dictate what the student may or may not do.

So... I make it a rule for myself to not change any settings, run any of my apps (firefox..others), boot to Linux, connect to servers at home, etc... In school you may get suspension or detention but in real life you can face fines, jailtime and a mark against your record which can hurt future job opportunities...

Thats all I gotta say... Peace!

Re:OSS is evil.

[CrimsonAvenger]

Ha, more like practical. If every kid comes out of school creative and motivated to do great things, where are we going to get people to do all the shit jobs that no one wants to do?

Finally, an acceptable reason for illegal immigration!

Re:OSS is evil.

[Ephemeriis]

I work in School District IT, and can assure you that teachers decide what is in the classrooms, not IT. If the Teachers want something, IT is charged with making it happen.

We used to support a school in the area... I'm very glad we don't anymore. What a headache... Every teacher had different requirements for their classes... Often to the point that we'd have to support two different, yet nearly identical pieces of software just because one teacher liked one program more than the other. There was one piece of software...don't remember what it was...it required write access to all sorts of registry keys... Basically would not run as anything less than administrator... We had a hell of a time locking down those computers.

Re:OSS is evil.

[Fordiman]

Any spyware designed sufficiently to track all student movements would be on the proxy server that all 'net traffic must be routed through. The only attack for that is to run everything through an SSH tunnel, and that can be flagged pretty easy.

Re:OSS is evil.

[Ed Avis]

Even Bjarne Stroustrup uses "\n" instead of endl (at least sometimes). I think the reasoning is: since the C standard library convention (which C++ inherits) is to fiddle any platform-specific line terminator and show just \n to the application, you might as well write that and let the library turn it to \r\n or whatever as needed. That said, I haven't tested what happens on DOS or Windows platforms (say) with his example program.

Re:OSS is evil.

[Skolor]

This isn't true of all school districts. In the district I came from, IT passed down mandates makes things very difficult for teachers, so much so that a number of state provide tools could not be used in the classroom. In addition to that, I know of a similar TRUE story. As a recent graduate of high school, we had a similar incident with a student in an advanced technology program. While being taught about dual booting a computer, the student decided he would install Linux and Firefox in an additional partition. Upon discovery by the teacher, he was told to un-install the software, and when he did not do it before class was dismissed, had the hard drive wiped and was forced to completely re-install Windows the next day. This happened two more times, and it ended up with him being kicked out of the program. Of note would be that this program provided all sorts of Microsoft/Comptia certifications completely free, in my time there I aquired the following certifications: MCP, MCDST, MCSA, A+, Net+, and numerous microsoft office certifications.

Re:OSS is evil.

[Aqualung812]

You may be a geek, but I take it you have not worked a Helpdesk.

Kids that are joining the workforce now are just supposed to get computers, right? They have been around their whole life, right? No, I still get 18 year olds telling me the classic "I know just enough to be dangerous..."

Let's not make sure they can use a tool that is a requirement in almost EVERY job. Everyone from factory line staff to auto repair shops have to use computers. Let's just make sure they can draw pretty pictures...like "Will paint for food"

Re:OSS is evil.

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

This is like a teacher telling you to copy every file in a folder , and because he only knows how to do that by right click-copy-paste , you get detention for using Ctrl-A - Ctrl-C - Ctrl-V .

It's a silly example... Here's a less silly example:

A teacher hands out a multiple-choice test that is graded by machine. The higher-ups request that a particular type of pencil is used on these tests because they have been tested with the machine. A student uses a pen with magnetic ink, knowing for a fact that it will work with the machine. The teacher doesn't know this and asks the student to use the right pencil. The student says no. The teacher insists. The student declines. The teacher gives him a detention, not for using a pen, but for disobeying.

Ordinarily I wouldn't have corrected you, but the implication that FireFox and any other browser are the exact same thing is chillingly wrong.

Re:OSS is evil.

[crossconnects]

my school had about 100 students grades k-12.
I was valedictorian in a class of 3!

Re:OSS is evil.

[Lumpy]

I also work in school IT I support 5 schools and I can assure you that Teachers, specifically Computer class teachers know very little about computers and are typically some of the wierdest people I know.

They freak out easily, think that a broken off USB port on the back of a computer is easily fixed by going to radio-shack and cant understand why you refuse to give them administrator rights after they hosed the entire fleet of 45 classroom Pc's by loading a new program purchased without your input that freaks out when it sees multiple copies running on the network and is not a network version. (they saved money and bought 45 copies of the single user version and not 1 copy and 45 licenses of the network version.)

The teachers you need to keep FAR, FAR away from computers and teaching computers is typically the Computer class teacher.

Re:OSS is evil.

[Hucko]

In Australia, mostly the computers for the children are administered by the teachers, followed by the librarians before being outsourced. Of course, the teachers and librarians are highly trained by reading through a ~10yo print-out of how to use a computer!

Re:OSS is evil.

[bladesjester]

I haven't seen a school with just one IT person in over a decade.

I saw one a couple of years ago. Their IT person was retiring and they found my resume and gave me a call.

I had experience in basically everything they had/needed, so I went in to talk to them.

I found myself sitting across the table from a group of 50-60 year old administrators who basically decided that, experience be damned, someone in their mid 20s was just too young to do that job.

The looks on their faces when they met me were mildly amusing. I guess they were expecting someone about a decade or two older.

Re:OSS is evil.

[dmitri3]

No! Art class is evil. Art classes are mostly for studying before exams and doing homework for the class after. That's what people did in Art class when I was forced to assist it. On the other hand, computer classes are full of people watching Youtube and Facebook... simply because school can't afford good technology teacher. Fuck, I just say, let students learn skills that aren't required, at home. Most of non-standard classes are retarded and just waste students' time. And yes, they will say thank you, because finally they will be able to do what they love instead what you force them to do! And yes, 90% teachers can't teach.

Re:OSS is evil.

[Scudsucker]

Ordinarily I wouldn't have corrected you, but the implication that FireFox and any other browser are the exact same thing is chillingly wrong.

But the resulting homework would be the same, which is the point.

Re:OSS is evil.

[Scudsucker]

However, as the previous poster mentioned its NOT OK to install/run anything foreign on school computers or at your job unless allowed in the policy. It may seem harmless or can be but should you get caught you can face serious punishment. It is also in the teachers right to dictate what the student may or may not do.

Then it's the schools job to set security policies in Windows to disallow such things. Setting up computer labs and just expecting people not to run any other programs on the computer will be only slightly more effective than dropping money on the street and expecting people not to pick it up.

Re:OSS is evil.

[Virgil Tibbs]

I got in trouble for using torpark a while back. of course... the purpose of torpark is slightly different (bypassing RM content filtering) to access Gmail. I've got sympathy for this kid, what ever the degree of truth behind it.

Re:OSS is evil.

[Essron]

i think you are applying a commonsense argument to a state level bureaucracy, which is fairly absurd, but your optimism that most school districts are not overrun with destructive, unionized incompetent lunatics is reassuring.

but seriously, addressing the vast variety of schools, school districts, funding, egos, elections, unions, etc by any qualitative measure is futile. there is no fed standard, probably no state standard, and often i'm sure no local standard.

Re:OSS is evil.

[FireFury03]

If every kid comes out of school creative and motivated to do great things, where are we going to get people to do all the shit jobs that no one wants to do?

Prison?

No, we can't do that - it would be against the murderer's human rights to put him to work in a shitty job...

Re:OSS is evil.

[Sgt.Modulus]

Then it's the schools job to set security policies in Windows to disallow such things. Setting up computer labs and just expecting people not to run any other programs on the computer will be only slightly more effective than dropping money on the street and expecting people not to pick it up. Yeah but when you disallow installation of programs you start to tread in hot water. You can hurt other programs meant to run on the machines from running at all or running properly. Yes... I know its up to schools to set the policies up correctly but it is often not done correctly. I find that high schools tend to be more lax in security or implement such restrictive rules its ridiculous. I'm currently attending college and stay away from using their machines. I do all my work on my own machine. Yes... I know thats not always possible for others.

Re:OSS is evil.

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

"But the resulting homework would be the same, which is the point."

That depends on what the homework actually is. To put it another way, this scenario doesn't pass the "What if IE's and FF's roles were reversed?" test.

Re:OSS is evil.

[hedwards]

They updated the story since I posted. Apparently it was a hoax.

But that aside, if a student were given detention for using firefox that is an entirely different thing than being given detention for skirting the firewall policies of a school.

Re:OSS is evil.

[MightyYar]

I'm all for it if it is a vocational school. Otherwise, let them get their serious computer experience in college or trade school (where the hardware and software will only be 2-4 years away from the real world instead of 5-17 years). Or at the very least, let the kids wait until high school, when they have to start writing serious papers and such. A high schooler needs to know how to use a word processor for the same reason that they needed typing 30 years ago, and they need to know how to use the web for research in the same way that they learned about the reference section 20 years ago, but otherwise a kid is better off with his art, music, and phys-ed.

Re:OSS is evil.

[MightyYar]

I would say that grade school is not yet a time for kids to do what they love. Kids aren't mature enough to make that decision yet. Kids should be exposed to art, music, and physical activity in addition to the 3 Rs. A vocational high school is for kids who already know what they want to do. If a kid would love to be a secretary, then fine, they can take some crappy class that teaches typing and how to use MS Office. Otherwise, they can wait until college to really specialize. Putting kids on a "track" too early is a bad thing, IMHO. I know a few programmers who could have used a bit more phys-ed and shop class - and I know a lot of bachelors who REALLY missed out on home-ec.

Re:OSS is evil.

[1u3hr]

Let's not make sure they can use a tool that is a requirement in almost EVERY job. Everyone from factory line staff to auto repair shops have to use computers. Let's just make sure they can draw pretty pictures...like "Will paint for food"

Teach kids to type, sure. That will always be useful. But nothing else they learn in school computer classes will be relevant or useful by the time they graduate. My daughter is 10, she's learnt how to use wordprocessors, paint programs, and is now making a Flash Xmas card. It really did not take long for her to pick this up. But she knows little about "safe" computing, and what she does know is from what I've told her, not what she learned at school. She complains because I've banned her from using IE or chat programs. Very few teachers are competent at teaching computing skills. I'd much rather she learnt how to read, write and do music and art and maths that screwing around on a PC at school. She can pick up any computer skills she needs by reading a book or doing a focused course. Learning art and music is something they have to learn young or not at all. Not many have the skill to be a professional artist, but many jobs are open to those with some talent. (My brother makes a good living as a signwriter, for instance.) Learning to think is what kids need if they're going to have a decent job.

Re:OSS is evil.

[dmomo]

Also, it is important to stick with standards. The teacher's personal preference may just be that. But in Industry, this is important. If instructions specify standards, points should be deducted. If the instructions were not clear, of course this isn't reasonable.

Re:OSS is evil.

[Eivind]

"\n" is *defined* to be newline.

"\n" will be one thing on unix, another on Windows, just like endl.

Using the equivalent of \cr\lf would have the problems you mention and thus be worthy of a loss of points.

Re:OSS is evil.

[Eivind]

Art is important for -other- reasons, but for purely job-related education, knowing computer-basics is an order of magnitude more important.

Today you need to know basics of computer use regardless of if you are a doctot, a nurse, a teacher, a office-worker of any sort, a car-mechanic, a oil-driller, a farmer or a bus-drivers.

Yes, you can -do- some of these jobs with no computer-skills, but you're seriously hampered in all of them.

In contrast, it's a rare job that can't be done without any problems by someone who doesn't know the storyline of Hamlet, has never watched a complete Opera in his life, and has never heard the name "Mozart". Infact, I'd guess 90-95% of all jobs fall into this category, the main exception being, ironically, teaching. (It's somewhat ironic to consider a skill important for the reason that you need to know it to teach it, if that is the only reason, then the skill as such is redundant)

Like I said: I consider art important -- but for -OTHER- reasons, almost completely separate from work.

Re:OSS is evil.

[greenlead]

I was the valedictorian of a class of one (a small church school).

Re:OSS is evil.

[yoyhed]

When I was in high school, 5-6 years ago, I used PSCP to copy homework to and from my home computer, and PuTTY to view the filenames, etc. This was before USB flash drives were cost-effective for a high schooler, and - well, fuck floppy disks. The school's IT department "caught" me - since none of them actually knew what SSH was, they assumed I was doing something malicious and banned me from school computers for an entire semester.

Much worse than this 2-day detention hoax, if you ask me. They just told me not to be a smartass when I tried to explain. If only I could go back with my mind now - I'd sure give them a piece of it, those bureaucratic fucks.

The school is Hudson High School if anyone wants to know, hs.hudson.k12.wi.us, 715-377-3800 is their number.

Re:OSS is evil.

[mrhartwig]

In our district, this is clearly not the case; at least in elementary school. The teachers all have laptops, but they're running some software that doesn't allow changes to the C: drive. I believe it keeps a copy & refreshes changes after every boot (and a boot is enforced every day). Idiots didn't put the teachers' home directory on the D: drive, so they can't even personalize their desktops -- no background, no color changes, nada. Nothing permanent, anyway.

Don't get me started about how married IT is to Microsoft....

Re:OSS is evil.

[mrhartwig]

First, the teacher was wrong for not knowing what FireFox is. Any teacher with a computer in the classroom should have AT LEAST that level of knowledge.

That's not even close to reasonable. Any computer teacher should know about Firefox, maybe, but there's no way I would expect any other teacher to know about open source or other alternatives to pre-installed software the school provides. It'd be nice if they did, and I'm sure some do, but I think it makes no sense to expect that knowledge.

You have a car, right? Do you know about all of the after-market parts available? Do you have a house, and do you know everything about water heater alternatives? Heck, if you have a bicycle, are you aware of Shimano's latest component group or Speedplay's latest pedals? And, if I've picked bad examples (that you do know about), you get the idea....

We can claim that computers are where the future lies, and everyone needs to know all about that. That is just not the case; name one technology revolution in which all users (successful or not, whatever "success" means) became experts. Heck, I bet that not everyone knew how to knap flint 15,000 years ago....

Re:OSS is evil.

[shutdown -p now]

Depending on what you were trying to do, '\n' may well not be interchangeable with std::endl; keep in mind that the latter also flushes the buffer, while plain '\n' won't do that.

Re:OSS is evil.

[funfail]

There is a naming convention for Java, published by Sun. In a programming course, teachers should not accept a code that "just works" in an exam, it also has to be maintainable. Naming conventions are part of maintainability.

Re:OSS is evil.

[MightyYar]

I think you overstate the importance of computer skills for common jobs, but I generally agree with you. The thing is, though, that school - especially grade school - is not about making you a good worker. It is about making you an educated person. I can't think of many jobs that require a history education, but you sure can't make an educated vote without a good history background.

For what it's worth, my wife is a doctor and she grew up in a 3rd world country with no computers. They have a 2 hour training class to show them how to use the computer system and she's good to go. The nurses are all from the Philippines or the Caribbean with a similar lack of computer skills. My brother is a teacher and still calls me with questions about turning on his computer (exaggeration). I don't think computers are so hard to learn that you need to start being instructed on them in grade school - though if your school can afford it without cutting other programs I think its great.

I wasn't really talking about Mozart and all that - I'm more talking about being exposed to music and art. Having a teacher come in and teach the kids "Bingo was his name-o" where you learn about rhythm and melody. Art where you play with a lump of clay and make it into a pot. There are more ways to express creativity than "creative writing" class, and they are all healthy for kids to experience.

Re:OSS is evil.

[spikedvodka]

It's 2007. Unless you live in the middle of nowhere, the school, or at the very least, the district, has a professional IT staff. I beg to differ... I Do live in the middle of nowhere, and our school does have a full time professional IT staff. There are two of us, supporting 800-ish students, and 100-ish staff members. he have about 150 Macs, and about 300 Wintel based machines, as well as web-, email-, file-, testing-, and moodle- servers (Yes Online testing, in the boonies)

It's enough to keep us busy the whole time.

We're between three buildings (High School, Administration Building, and elementary-middle school) that are within 500 yards of each other. and as for "Formal IT Policies" we have more "Formal IT Policies" than you can shake a stick at, Many of which are state requirements.

All software goes through IT, however the teachers tell us what they *need*, functionality wise, and the suggest titles. We then find titles that will work, we test them, and license them appropriately. The exception to this rule however is "Classroom/Educational Software" where we are not curriculum experts, we defer to them: If the software they want can be licensed appropriately, we will license it, and install it.

oh, and P.S. while we can't require it, because some of the state tools require IE (damn them all to hell) Firefox is the Recommended web-browser, and set as the default on all computers

Re:OSS is evil.

[Eivind]

Actually, I'm pretty sure I understated it. And besides, if you read what I wrote, I *agree* that arts and culture is important -- for reasons almost completely disconnected from work. Having a functioning democracy is one of those reasons.

That it's possible to function as a doctor with no more than a few days worth of computer training and/or experience is no evidence that being comfortable with the basics of computers isn't a tremendous *benefit* to someone working as a doctor.

One can type on a keyboard with literally 5 minutes of training -- but it's going to take you a HELL of a lot more time than filling out the same form would take for someone who has a few hundred hours of practice typing on a keyboard.

Re:OSS is evil.

[LocutusMIT]

has never watched a complete Opera in his life

Opera's a web browser, right?

Re:OSS is evil.

[MightyYar]

I'm sorry to break it to you, but the only computer skills that a doctor needs are Word, PowerPoint, and the custom software that they use at the hospital. Really and honestly, that's it. I don't know how my wife's career is being limited by only knowing the custom in-house software.

One can type on a keyboard with literally 5 minutes of training -- but it's going to take you a HELL of a lot more time than filling out the same form would take for someone who has a few hundred hours of practice typing on a keyboard. Yeah, she can touch-type. She learned that in college. I learned that well after college - it took about a month. I got all the way through engineering school with my hunting-and-pecking. I've seen kids typing on their cell phones faster than I could type in college :)

I'm not saying computer instruction isn't important, because I think it is - and it can help you professionally in some cases. I think all schools should have computers. But if it comes down to hiring an art teacher or an IT guy, I think they should stick with the art teacher and let the most techy of the teachers try to fill in as best as they can.

Re:OSS is evil.

[zopf]

Sincerely yours, John C. Scudder High School Principal

Principal Scudworth!

Re:OSS is evil.

[Eivind]

You've got your nose so deep in computer-skills that you don't even notice they -are- skills.

True, a doctor needs only to be able to deal with a low number of programs. But you ignore the -BASIC- computer-skills. You know the ones that all the more *spesific* computer-skills depend upon. The ones you don't even notice knowing, because to you it's as natural as breathing.

To use the handful of programs a doctor needs to know, the doctor needs to know a lot of -basic- computer skills.

• How to type text using a keyboard, preferably without using hunt-n-peck. (that works, but means a lot of wasted time)
  
• How to use a mouse. Point. Click. Double-click. Right-click. Drag-and-drop. I know it seems incredible to a computernerd, but these things *really* aren't obvious to someone who -didn't- spend time infront of a computer.
  
• Basic, general concepts: A *file*. A *program*. A *folder*. A *drive*.
  
• Basics of windowing-systems: Minimize. Close. Maximize. Move. Menus, Icons. Combo-boxes. Radio-boxes. Checkboxes. Scrollbars.
  
• Simple file-managments: Move, Copy, Delete.
  

If you don't know how to do these things well today, you are severly hampered in the large majority of available jobs out there.

None of these things are -hard-. Someone who is smart enough to be a doctor can learn all of them quickly. It'll take some time to get -good- at them, but learning and understanding the basics of it can be done in a couple of weeks, even starting from zero.

The *basics* of art and culture aren't hard to learn either, that can -also- be done in a few weeks, even starting from zero by someone who is smart. But there are two important differences.

First, unlike computers, it is actually very hard to start from zero. You are continually exposed to art and culture, in contrast there are millions of people in USA that have never themselves spent even 10 hours working on a computer.

Second, unlike computers, you are -not- seriously hampered in your ability to do most jobs by a near-zero knowledge of arts and culture. Not having heard of Mozart, George Orwell or Shakespear is completely irrelevant to 90% of all jobs.

Your wife is not an example of someone with zero or near zero computer-skills. To me she sounds like someone of -average- computer-skill. Indeed from your description it sounds as if she's spent hundreds of hours learning about and/or working on a computer.

If your wife was unable to send an email with an attachment, could not type a simple sentence correctly in less than 2 minutes, had yet to master the doubleclick and stared at you blankly if you asked her to delete a file from her desktop -- that most certainly would have had a negative influence on her ability to do her job efficiently.

Re:OSS is evil.

[Eivind]

Among other things. Which was sorta my point: Not knowing how to use a "web browser" is much more of a practical problem in the current workplace than not knowing a single opera (of the singing-variety) by name.

Re:OSS is evil.

[MightyYar]

The VERY basic concepts that you are talking about are known by kids way before high school. If you had a computer class for kids today that included "move, copying, and deleting" files, they would laugh at you. You can't use an iPod without such concepts, and I don't know many (any?) high school kids without some kind of mp3 player. The type of clueless computer person that you describe isn't very prevalent among the high-school crowd.

And once again, I'm not talking about Mozart, Orwell, or Shakespeare. I'm talking about understanding how basic rhythm and melody work. You know, start the song out as B-I-N-G-O and then take away one letter at a time but keep the rhythm.

But all of this is irrelevant, since you don't need an IT department to teach word processing - which would cover typing and basic computer skills.

Re:OSS is evil.

[Eivind]

This may be a shock to you, but not -all- kids grow up in homes with multiple computers and ipods. Many kids can count to 10 and do simple reading before they enroll in school too, which doesn't mean that schools should ignore teaching these things.

Re:OSS is evil.

[MightyYar]

That isn't a shock to me at all. But I fail to see how computer education is all that important to elementary-aged kids at all. I didn't even see my first computer until I was 9, and I make my living with them.

Please, again, note that I am not saying that computers should not be used in school - just that an IT guy should be below art, music, and phys-ed on the budget list.

detention for disobedience

[yagu]

It appears the infraction was probably closer to being for disobeying the teacher than for using Firefox. While it exposes an interesting deficiency in the general knowledge of educators about browser technology, it isn't necessarily their specialty. (We don't know if this was some proxy of a teacher who was unaware of options for browsers.)

Without any more information, this is merely a potential story... I wouldn't bother sending e-mails to the school. You may want to consider first:

• did this student have a history of infractions?
• was the student explaining his choice as a better browser as a canard?
• was the assignment specifically geared toward, or requiring of IE?
• was the firefox browser installed as an option and available, or,
• did the student download and install without authorization?

Re:detention for disobedience

[Anonymous Coward]

No surprise here, US schools have become so much about teaching to the test that kids are being taught not to think, but just blindly, mindlessly obey. No wonder there haven't been any sound leaders coming from the US this generation... because no one is learning how to think for themselves, think critically, and do what is right even when it conflicts with doing what you're told. Even Hollywood is in on it - try watching Dead Poet's Society sometime...

Re:detention for disobedience

[Nicholas Bishop]

Why would you take into account whether the student has a history of infractions? You don't discipline a person more just because they've caused you trouble in the past. As for the rest, if the student put Firefox on IE-only machines, it doesn't matter whether he had authorization; he did them a favor, period. Think schools, not prisons.

Re:detention for disobedience

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

This is an apology for authoritarianism - assuming innocence on the part of authority, and granting benefits of doubt to their actions while also itemising possible hypothitical infractions by the accused.

That is how fascism is apologised.

Re:detention for disobedience

[LWATCDR]

You really need to stop trying to be reasonable.
The Student was told twice to close Firefox and use IE.
He should have just fired up IE.

Re:detention for disobedience

[Alastor187]

I think your points are valid, but since teachers aren't experts on web browsing technology should they just close their mind to anything they don't understand? The bigger question I am asking is, why cannot teachers learn from students everyone once a while? So maybe for the next assignment students could be given the option of using IE or Firefox depending on their comfort level.

Re:detention for disobedience

[Hes Nikke]

this is slashdot, we don't use logic here. for that you need to go to.... um... not the internet!

Re:detention for disobedience

[CriminalNerd]

IIRC, it is common, and socially accepted, to hand out a heavier punishment to a student who has more infractions (ie: tardiness) than to a student who has, say, maybe one or two (ie: one late day).

Re:detention for disobedience

[Anonymous Coward]

You forget that now "A history of Disobedience" means "The student has thought outside the box". I remember reading a letter sent home by a teacher that basically said "I've given this student detention because I made a mistake in class and the student corrected me" and proceeded to rant about how, despite showing the teacher in the book that they were wrong, the student should have simply "obeyed"

re: detention for disobedience

[ed.han]

if the student put firefox on IE-only machines, it does matter what account he was using and whether he had admin rights. in a lot of user environments, your average user is not given the rights to install new software and whether it's stupid or not, it's the admin's right to make that decision for that environment. in a classroom, it would in fact make sense that the desktops be locked down to preclude bandwidth-abuse (MP3s, etc) or prevent "adult" site viewing, which would expose the school to liability in legal action, etc.

ed

Re:detention for disobedience

[Archangel Michael]

I work at a school district in IT, and I can assure you that some (too many) teachers can barely teach, let alone manage to run a classroom with computers.

I would love to require all teachers who want to use computers have to attend a class on computers in the classroom by someone like me who can explain the technology and what it can do (and not do) in the classroom.

However, I can equally assure you that the Teacher's Union is so high on itself that it wouldn't allow having a non-teacher teaching anything, let alone other teachers. There is this underlying current of elitism in many teachers.

Suffice it to say, I doubt that 85% of the teachers using computers in the classroom know anything more than "Click the Start Menu" type instruction, and if it isn't Microsoft ________ it isn't used. Period. Firefox isn't Microsoft, so it isn't used, and teachers don't know about it.

I don't know if I should blame the teachers or not. However, this teacher was running the classroom properly. The student had no right to change the instruction of the teacher (even if the student was correct). I know that managing a classroom of people is hard enough without having some rogue student thinking they know better. Even if Firefox is a better browser (it is), that doesn't give the student the right to vary from the instruction (use IE).

One last thing, the last thing I want on computers I manage is students downloading and installing whatever programs they think they want onto computers. If they want to use a program they need to request it through the proper channels. If I caught a student installing software on a computer without permission, I'd recommend they be expelled, regardless of what they were installing. Its not their computer.

Re:detention for disobedience

[iamacat]

It's a school, not the army. Students are entitled to make the most efficient educational use possible of computers purchased by thousands of tax dollars their parents pay per year. The only restriction is that such use must not interfere with education of other students. Hence no breaking installed educational software, no hogging network resources, no accessing/changing grades, no installing games that will unduly tempt others to slack off during classes. However, installing Firefox is well within educational use. It can make the student more productive with tabbed browsing and download manager. It can also enable him/her to do research using search engines without exposing school systems to malware or being bothered with porno popups.

Re:detention for disobedience

[lazarus corporation]

these are all possibilities, but since none of these are mentioned in the teacher's letter linked to in TFA then we can dismiss them.

If the kid had a history of infractions then the teacher should have mentioned it in the letter. Likewise if the kid was being a smart-arse in his explanation the teacher should have (and would have) mentioned it. And the same applies to the other 3 points you made.

However the teacher made none of these points in his letter - judging by the teacher's side of the argument (given in the letter) the teacher just didn't know what he was talking about.

Re:detention for disobedience

[ArcherB]

his is an apology for authoritarianism - assuming innocence on the part of authority, and granting benefits of doubt to their actions while also itemising possible hypothitical infractions by the accused.

Uh, no. I expect Authority to be... well, in charge. Imagine that. Should the students be allowed to install and run anything they want on school computers? Can you do that at YOUR job?

That is how fascism is apologised.

Blow it out your ass. Just because someone is in charge, in this case a teacher in charge of the classroom, doesn't mean that the school is fascist.

Re:detention for disobedience

[plover]

This sounds like a lesson in the "bullying style" of authority. "I am the teacher, you shall do my bidding unquestioningly or face my punishment" is a lesson where it doesn't matter if it's over browsers, flavor of soda, or color of socks.

Not that I don't universally find that sort of "authority figure" to be an abominable example of humanity. There are much better ways to teach, and many better lessons to learn. But sometimes a butt-head teacher will think he's doing the student a favor by "teaching" the lesson of not questioning authority. (They are always wrong.)

Re: detention for disobedience

[Joe The Dragon]

you can run firefox off of a usb key and it does not need to write to the HDD.

Also some school use stuff like deep freeze to lock down the systems. Some software may need admin to work and deep freeze just lets reboot the system to make it go back to where it was when you booted it up.

Re:detention for disobedience

[Helios1182]

For minor things people tend to go easier on you the first time you make the mistake. If you show up late to work once your boss may not say anything, the second time a reminder or warning, the tenth time you get fired.

Re:detention for disobedience

[Sciros]

The teacher was under the impression that the student was not doing his work. So the request to 'close the program and resume work' was, well, nonsense. I'm not going to bother entertaining the idea of this being a 'reasonable' request, because the reasoning behind it was faulty to begin with. With this in mind, and with regards to your comment, should there be no issue taken up with teachers enforcing 'unreasonable' requests?

The whole 'punish first, investigate later' mentality of some teachers is the problem here. I have met many of the sort, and they are NOT among the better educators I know.

Your bullet list being what it is, I wonder whether you read the detention letter in the first place.

Re:detention for disobedience

[CastrTroy]

That's the way it works in criminal justice. Why not have it work the same way in the classroom? The courts will often hand down harsher punishments to those who have a history of repeatedly breaking the law.

Re:detention for disobedience

[arose]

Would you say the same if the teacher had ordered to use a fountain pen instead of a ball point?

Re:detention for disobedience

[Lemmy Caution]

And if I get that hideous garden gnome out of your garden, I've done you a favor, too.

Really, it's hideous.

Re:detention for disobedience

[melikamp]

This is what compulsory schooling is for, though, and not much else. I do not agree with everything that Gatto is saying, but he hit the nail on the head for this one. I am surprised it even made it onto the /.

Re:detention for disobedience

[ivan256]

Insightful? Give me a break...

For over 50 years, US schools have been about teaching kids to obey authority, not to think. It has nothing to do with some "test"... It has nothing to do with "this generation"... The primary purpose of the public education system has seemed to be producing obedient, law-abiding citizens.

Any kid with half a brain can figure that out, and game the system to his/her advantage, and learn to think critically in the process. This particular kid probably learned how to handle situations like this online from his FPS buddies, or from his parents who don't believe in discipline.

Re:detention for disobedience

[Archangel Michael]

And you sir, are an apologetic for anarchy - assuming the guilt on the part of the authority. The facts of the case are not in dispute, the student refused to do what the teacher said, which was a reasonable request. The students don't run the classroom, the teachers do (or are supposed to).

Re: detention for disobedience

[muckdog]

Might not have been install but rather launched from a usb stick.

Re:detention for disobedience

[ubuwalker31]

It appears the infraction was probably closer to being for disobeying the teacher than for using Firefox.

Bullshit. On the face of the detention document it is clear that the teacher didn't believe that the child was doing the classroom assignment because he was using Firefox. The teacher told the student to close Firefox and open IE to complete the assignment.

Thus, it is clear that the teacher did not know that Firefox was a web browser, and it is clear that the teacher gave the student detention because the teacher thought he was not doing his work.

Why does this matter? Because some educators are ignorant about computers and refuse to learn anything about them. Any idiot can "google" firefox.exe and determine that it is a popular browser.

The other reason that this story invokes outrage, is that the student, who is clearly correct, is ignored by the teacher.

The "unauthorized installation" and "disobedience" issue is a red-herring. If he was disobedient or violated the schools policy, then that would have been made the focus of the detention. It was the use of Firefox and the perception that he wasn't doing the classroom assignment that garnered the detention.

Re:detention for disobedience

[MarcoG42]

If I caught a student installing software on a computer without permission, I'd recommend they be expelled, regardless of what they were installing. If I caught you changing lanes without using your turn signal I'd recommend having your driving privileges revoked for life, regardless of the fact that the punishment doesn't fit the crime.

Re:detention for disobedience

[Don Music]

Wrong. This is an example of a teacher who may never have encountered FF before and so didn't recognize it as a suitable technology to be used in the assignment. Don't be so quick to condemn entire U.S. school system on the basis of this report lest you be accused of the same narrow-minded and uncritical thinking that you revile. Also keep in mind that don't really know how this student responded to the teacher ... it is easier for me to imagine that a smug and belligerent retort from the student is what got him/her sent to detention.

Re:detention for disobedience

[Elemenope]

did this student have a history of infractions?

If so, extra points. Troublemakers in school are usually the bored ones. Who's fault is that?

was the student explaining his choice as a better browser as a canard?

If it's literally true, it isn't a canard. Regardless, confounding the stupids is a mitzvah.

was the assignment specifically geared toward, or requiring of IE?

Bad assignment, no donut for teacher.

was the firefox browser installed as an option and available, or, did the student download and install without authorization?

If it was installed, someone expected it to be used. If, on the other hand, the kid somehow has admin privileges on his school's compies, there are larger issues here, starting with the immediate firing of the school's tech guy.

Re:detention for disobedience

[Deadstick]

Let the jackass teacher win: One good grade.

Disobey and get to make a public jackass of the teacher: priceless.

rj

Re:detention for disobedience

[pongo000]

I work at a school district in IT, and I can assure you that some (too many) teachers can barely teach, let alone manage to run a classroom with computers.

I work at a school district as a math teacher. I also have several years of experience in IT industry, and have a master's degree in CS. I can assure you that *most* of our IT people know little to nothing about anything that doesn't involve Microsoft or Novell. Which means I just deal with IT problems myself, because I can usually *not* count on getting any level of help beyond the simple scripted responses one gets when they e-mail technical support.

Why do I bring this up? Because this sword you swing cuts both ways: I'm *definitely* not one of the teachers you describe, and *you* definitely don't sound like one of the IT people I describe. I think it's fair to say that not many teachers *or* school district IT employees are what you and I would describe as "computer literate beyond the most basic level."

BTW, your comment about installing software leads me to believe that this student may have also violated an AUP that specifically prohibits the installation of programs other than those endoresed by the school district. Regardless of how one reads "installation," it's a safe bet that no one would argue that copying an .exe to a Windows drive, even if it does not access the registry, constitutes "installation."

Re:detention for disobedience

[orclevegam]

Odds are using Firefox didn't make any difference in how the kid did his assignment. He was most likely using it because "M$ sux!" This is a case of making waves just to make waves, or the tech savvy kid wanting to show off that he knew something other kids didn't. Firefox + AdBlockPlus + NoScript wins against IE hands down if for no other reason than performance on a constrained bandwidth and processing environment. I've attempted to find comparable addons or plugins for IE but so far I've had no luck. In addition the simple and efficient layout of the Firefox extension page beats the pants of the windows marketplace which uses CNET as the actual download host and merely links to it in search results.

I regularly use Firefox for lab assignments rather than IE7 because it allows pages to load faster on the congested school network by eliminating ads and useless scripts, as well as reducing security risks. If necessary I'll bring Firefox on a USB stick, but most schools have at least one person on staff with the smarts to have installed Firefox on the lab computers.

Re:detention for disobedience

[Howitzer86]

Most of the people here would have been expelled long ago...

Re:detention for disobedience

[jedidiah]

At least it shows the boy can think for himself and solve his own problems if necessary.

Odd are, not using Firefox would leave him open to all sorts of BS on the web. This is why many of us use it in our corporate lives despite corporate policies to the contrary. Fortunately, we don't have to worry about people with so much time on their hands (like teachers) that we have to worry about it.

He was just foolish for not pretending to be cowed.

Re:detention for disobedience

[wrf3]

Without any more information, this is merely a potential story... I wouldn't bother sending e-mails to the school. You may want to consider first:

• The teacher is an idiot

Thirty-five or so years ago, while I was in high school, our "math lab" had an ASR-33 connected via dial-up to a Honeywell DDP-516 timesharing system in a nearby state. Another student who was at the terminal wanted to make a punch tape copy of his program and he asked me how to create the leader. I told him to press the "here is" button to have the terminal feed the tape. A "teacher" immediately told me, "the proper way is to press 'rubout' and 'repeat' at the same time." I replied that either worked. She then immediately threatened to take me to the head of the math department for insubordination.

She has forevermore been my example of what not to do with students. Sometimes they do know more than you.

Fortunately, I also had some real gems. My eleventh grade math teacher once challenged us by giving us some of her college work for extra credit. I stayed up all night working those ten problems. With circles under my eyes the next day, she took the time to go over my work after class. She looked at problem #3 and told me that I had gotten it wrong. I looked at her paper, saw where she had made a mistake, and showed her. She thought for a second then said, "You're right." Miss Kearns, to this day I still love you!

Re:detention for disobedience

[bladesjester]

The bigger question I am asking is, why cannot teachers learn from students everyone once a while?

Because, in the minds of a great many teachers, they are *the* authority and admitting that they don't know something is an insult they can't bear. This is especially true when they are dealing with a student (or his/her parents).

A lot of them don't like to be questioned or made to feel inferior in any way and will come down hard on anyone that even looks like they might do that. There are, of course, exceptions, but, sadly, it's been my experience that they're fairly rare.

Re:detention for disobedience

[tloh]

I find it somewhat amusing that the part of Pennsylvania where this occurred is right next to Dover where we had that embarrassing ID circus show some while back. Maybe there is something in the water suppressing common-sense/critical-thinking/open-mindedness? I'm sure there is a much more clever joke to be told here but I'm not cynical enough to deliver it.

Re:detention for disobedience

[MBCook]

Yes. It's a stupid rule, but it's the rule. He can talk to someone (like the principal) about it during another time. You can't just be a scofflaw.

Re: detention for disobedience

[onecheapgeek]

Portable Firefox still sticks a directory in %homedir%\Application Data. That is writing to the hard drive, in a location that even a non-admin has full control over.

Re:detention for disobedience

[LWATCDR]

Yes. After the first time I would. The correct way would be to take it up with the dean after the fact.

Re:detention for disobedience

[nomadic]

US schools have become so much about teaching to the test that kids are being taught not to think, but just blindly, mindlessly obey.

Do you really think schools were ever any different? If anything students were even more controlled during earlier periods.

Re:detention for disobedience

[Selfbain]

Let me get this straight... If a student installs something you don't want him to, you'll try and ruin his life in exchange... Ever heard of detention?

Re:detention for disobedience

[plague3106]

I'm guessing you have a dislike of teachers, and probably authority in general and are bringing it in to an issue completely seperate from what you are talking about.

There is much reason to dislike authority, especially when authority is exercised when it shouldn't be, over trivial things. I'm more distrubed by people that blindly bow to authority of them than anyone who questions it. Its our duty as citizens of this nation to always question authority, and if we find said authority over-reaching, to ignore it or remove it.

Re:detention for disobedience

[Goat of Death]

Are you really that gestapo? My mother is the IT person at a school as well so as her additional ad hoc computer help I'm well acquainted with what kids can be up to. Expel kids for installing software? Are you serious? First off, they are children we have an obligation to teach, not throw out to the dogs. Second if your security policy is so pathetic as to have a kid installing software cause serious problems with your machines and network it'd probably be you whom should be expelled. We're supposed to be teaching kids independent thought and how to find the best way of doing things for themselves. Yet you think detention for not towing the line is appropriate? Makes sense so many of our schools suck if you're the administrative mentality that runs them.

Re:detention for disobedience

[Archangel Michael]

I'm sorry your school district tech support is so bad (we have bad techs here too). I'm also sorry that there are bad teachers. Now, we're even. The problem is that due to union issues, bad (can't perform) people can't be fired. I think that *MOST* teachers are adequate, but too many aren't (same with IT, btw).

Yes, the sword does swing both ways. I'm willing to admit the weaknesses in my department, most teachers aren't willing to do the same.

I've supported and even recommended the use of Firefox over IE, even though we're a mostly MS Shop. I'm not a big MS fan, and have recommended every step of the way to use free (beer/speech) alternatives instead of MS. But I'm a lone voice in my dept.

Re:detention for disobedience

[sykopomp]

The point isn't whether firefox is good or not. I love firefox, honestly, and that's the default (and only available browser...) for all the computers I manage at the school I work in. The issue is that running non-approved software actually carries a risk of interfering with the operation of said computers. When you're managing a bunch of computers, or have a lesson plan designed in a certain way, the most obnoxious thing a student can do is try and install different software or operate things differently. I'm assuming this kid was carrying around a portable version of FOXFIRE.EXE, since no sane IT director would run student accounts under admin privileges. The problem here is that running software that hasn't been explicitly approved, no matter what it is, can put the entire school system at risk, and can even add several hours of work to an IT guy that's trying to manage a bunch of computers already. The issue is that not everyone is always going to know what every piece of software out there does. This kid could've, as far as the teacher know, been doing any of those things that you mentioned. His job isn't to have an encyclopedic knowledge of all software out there. He should, though, call attention to anything different that might cause problems, and running unsupported software is a big red flag. I hate to say it, but this teacher was completely right in giving detention to this kid. If he wants to run firefox and thinks that it will considerably improve his and his classmates' experiences, he should talk to the IT director and make his case. If he gets turned down, tough.

Re:detention for disobedience

[AJWM]

the student refused to do what the teacher said, which was a reasonable request.

It was NOT a reasonable request. If the assignment was to do or look at something on a website, who gives a rat's ass what browser the kid is using as long as it's connected to the website?

Besides, asking someone to run IE is never a reasonable request.

Re:detention for disobedience

[Archangel Michael]

Ever try to clean up a mess caused by people who don't know what they are doing, even when they didn't. Installing software without authorization is a No No. No exceptions. It is easy enough to get authorized, all you gotta do is ask and have a good reason.

It isn't that hard.

Re:detention for disobedience

[LWATCDR]

A high school shouldn't have to lock down ANYTHING. In High School you are old enough to drive or soon will be. Just because it is possible to do something it doesn't mean that it is okay.
I see time and time again people on slashdot saying that teenagers are no children. Well it is real simple. The rule is that you do what the teacher asks you within reason. If the teacher says use IE then you use I. If you have a problem with it take it up with the teacher after class. In other words handle it like an adult.

Re:detention for disobedience

[djtack]

A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.

Ha, your sig says it all, I feel sorry for the students with the misfortune of attending your school district. I was lucky enough to have teachers that encouraged me to explore computers. Under your guidance I would have gotten expelled by the second grade. You seem to think the student's job is to just follow orders, and the teacher's role to shepherd a bunch of barely trained animals through a maze.

Re:detention for disobedience

[Selfbain]

Oh, ok so it makes the admins job a bit harder so the kid should be thrown on the street to rot instead of being punished appropriately.

Re:detention for disobedience

[wdsci]

The teacher was under the impression that the student was not doing his work. So the request to 'close the program and resume work' was, well, nonsense. I'm not going to bother entertaining the idea of this being a 'reasonable' request, because the reasoning behind it was faulty to begin with. With this in mind, and with regards to your comment, should there be no issue taken up with teachers enforcing 'unreasonable' requests?

I think this is the point to get all excited about, that the teacher thought the student was not doing his work simply because the teacher didn't recognize the program. As far as I can see in the original post and the detention letter, there is no mention of the student having been required to use Internet Explorer (or any other particular browser); if that were the case, I imagine it's the kind of thing that would have been mentioned in the detention letter. A teacher who knows enough to require his/her students to use IE is almost certainly a teacher who knows to recognize Firefox for what it is, and I certainly get the impression that the teacher in question here is not one of those.

Re:detention for disobedience

[damn_registrars]

Should the students be allowed to install and run anything they want on school computers? Can you do that at YOUR job?
Its too bad that we don't have information as to whether or not the student actually installed firefox, or if they just ran something that was already installed. All we know is that it was running on a windows system (based on it having a ".exe" extension). I'd like to be able to assume that the IT person at said school was smart enough to set up the windows boxes to keep people from being able to just install any application willy-nilly, but of course we cannot make that assumption.

So really, due to the lack of good information in this case, the answers to your questions don't really apply. We could of course make some fun assumptions about how their IT is run at that school, and decide based on that, but that wouldn't likely help in this case.

Re:detention for disobedience

[Champion3]

So the student didn't comply with the teacher's edict to use IE. What is the effective outcome of this "disobedience?" Clearly using a different browser to do the same work is irrelevant to the ability to complete the assignment. Since the detention notice from TFA reeks of ignorance, I'm going to assume that the infraction had nothing to do with any sort of acceptable use policy violation (i.e. mandated use of prescribed applications) and had everything to do with a teacher going overboard because of his/her power tripping over petty, meaningless orders. For some of these guys it's about control. Often it's the young ones fresh out of college who think that they have something to prove. This is bringing back memories. No wonder I hated school!

Re:detention for disobedience

[syntaxeater]

Absolutely. In fact, I remember kids in my class getting in trouble quite often for using mechanical pencils to take scantrons. Seems dumb enough, but like many other people here have said - a lot of the facts were omitted for sensationalism. It could very well be that the school's criteria required IE.

Re:detention for disobedience

[dwandy]

managing a classroom of people is hard enough without having some rogue student thinking

ok, I know I'm dropping vital words to re-context your quote, but this is what's wrong with education today.

In a world where every fact is just a click on the InterTube(tm) away, we don't need kids who have memorized facts without meaning. We need to teach critical thinking and allow the kids to explore the world and find their own path. And sometimes that means they'll find something that the teacher isn't aware of. This kind of behaviour needs to be encouraged, not stifled with detention.

We're so busy protecting our precious IP, while we stifle the very people who we count on to produce tomorrows innovations.

Re:detention for disobedience

[cptdondo]

Last I heard, a school is supposed to be a place for learning. Learning is not a top-down activity. Learning is a many-to-many mapping.

The teacher and the principal(s) who signed this should be required to sit in a class taught by the students - on any topic of the students's choosing. They would be surprised by how much the kids know.

So far they've taught this kid that might makes right, and that "it's my way or the highway". That's not exactly great preparation for today's multi-faceted, coopoerative world.

Re:detention for disobedience

[The One and Only]

Blow it out your ass. Just because someone is in charge, in this case a teacher in charge of the classroom, doesn't mean that the school is fascist.

No. The school is "fascist" (for lack of a better term) because the authority in question is belligerently and militantly ignorant and incompetent to be in charge.

Re:detention for disobedience

[iamacat]

People who do not want to learn have no place working in a school as IT stuff, much less as teachers. "foxfire" is not exactly an obscure piece of software that non-computer pros are unable to comprehend. The teacher certainly has right to observe student's use of computer and make sure that it serves an educational purpose. If the guy can not tell the difference between playing games and using a web browser to do Internet research, he can be better employed in a school cafeteria flipping burgers.

Re:detention for disobedience

[Kevin Stevens]

I agree and just want to chime in.

Until I hear the whole story, including this kid's background, I would not pass judgment on the teacher or the school. This sounds eerily like the stories some kids used to tell along the lines of "I got detention just for sneezing!" which on the surface sounds like some idiot power-crazed teacher wronging a well meaning student. Then you get the back story, he was acting up in class, and being asked to control himself several times, then lets out an over-exaggerated (even if it was a naturally reflexive) sneeze intended to get more attention, which is the last straw to the teacher who then writes him up. But his version of the story is "all I did was sneeze, and I got detention!" which one or two of his buddies will corroborate, and that is what spreads around.

Somehow, it was always the disruptive students with histories of disruption that somehow ended up the victim of such events. I have a feeling this kid circumvented IT policies probably not for the first time, installed Firefox, showed off his 1337 skills to the class, who then caused a distraction by saying "ooh cool" followed up by "can you show me how to do that?!", the teacher then found out, and then said "close that and use IE" to which the student did not comply, probably at least twice, while basking in his badassness and attention from his classmates, then the fed-up teacher finally gave him detention.

Re:detention for disobedience

[ArcherB]

Its too bad that we don't have information as to whether or not the student actually installed firefox, or if they just ran something that was already installed. All we know is that it was running on a windows system (based on it having a ".exe" extension). I'd like to be able to assume that the IT person at said school was smart enough to set up the windows boxes to keep people from being able to just install any application willy-nilly, but of course we cannot make that assumption.

So really, due to the lack of good information in this case, the answers to your questions don't really apply. We could of course make some fun assumptions about how their IT is run at that school, and decide based on that, but that wouldn't likely help in this case.

True, if the student was caught installing FireFox and stopped when told. Unfortunately, we don't know if the student installed it or not. Either way, when the teacher said, "don't use that" the student should have stopped. I guess it would have been OK for the student to say, "Well, OK, but this is better, but if you want us using IE, I'll use IE." What is really the point here is that the teacher said, "don't use that" and the student said, "I think this is better, so I'm going to keep using it, regardless of what you say."

As to the machine not being sufficiently locked down to prevent unauthorized apps from being installed, well that's a problem between the teacher and the IT dept. No matter how locked down something is, there are ways around it. At some point we have to say that the rules must be followed, regardless if it is possible to do something or not. Securing the PC just makes the teacher's job easier, but it's not the responsibility of the IT department to run the class.

Re:detention for disobedience

[jedidiah]

> Browser fanboism aside, "Students are not to install any software on class computers" is a perfectly reasonable policy. (they would be crazy to have any other policy)

No, this is just an artifact of windows where there isn't proper access control and resource management in the operating system. Managing systems with user loadable executables is not problematic when the underlying OS isn't crap. Although a crap OS brings on it's own headaches even if you can lock the end users out of changing anything.

Re:detention for disobedience

[CFTM]

Most software in windows is not completely self-contained and Firefox.exe most certainly is not; it needs code libraries that need to be linked up through the OS. This means that the user either had administrative access [which is the fault of the admin, not the user], the software was previously installed by the admins or it's the student's own PC, in which case the teacher has no business telling him how to get a job done.

I have to believe that you haven't been doing IT in a Windows environment in some time as I can only think of a handful of windows based applications that are bundled in a completely self-contained way [ie you can just copy the .exe file, which is the process you described, and have it run]. Even old dos software would have code libraries that it'd make calls in to, without those files the program would crash.

Which means I just deal with IT problems myself, because I can usually *not* count on getting any level of help beyond the simple scripted responses one gets when they e-mail technical support Let me also say, that people in IT deal with "know-it-alls" all the time; it is a very vexing thing. I know this comes off as quite trollish, but your perspective on this issue indicates to me that you could possess the "know-it-all" IT personality which is the reason why you get canned responses and little help. The understanding laid out in your post does not reflect the reality of a windows environment and in fact shows a gross misunderstanding of how an application works in Windows. In the world of the Mac you're 100% correct, but why would someone be told to run Internet Explorer on a mac? Last I checked, Microsoft pulled any support on IE for the mac years ago.

Re:detention for disobedience

[Stripe7]

No surprise to me, I had an issue in high school with the science teacher. I got in trouble for correcting him on stars, told him they came in all colors red, green, blue, black, white etc.. He thought they were all white.

Re:detention for disobedience

[RomulusNR]

Uninformed authority is inexcusable and scourge on the intelligence of society.

Authority is not a justification for itself. The simple state of being in power does not make you right.

Authority must have basis for its existence. Otherwise it is false, empty authority. Such authority deserves to be questioned and opposed.

This is why despite how we run (most) schools, workplaces, and militaries, we choose an open, questioning, democratic process, ostensibly, for the operation of our cities, states, and country, so that false authority can be challenged, and replaced with legitimate authority. This has led in many cases to stronger nations and other bodies where it has been applied.

But our kids don't get taught that in school -- instead, they are taught to follow rules, no matter what.

What is the result? Discuss.

Re:detention for disobedience

[Jtheletter]

Given that one can get a nib customized to your personal writing style, the elegant and more civilized fountain pen would be the better representative of firefox than a mere ball point.

Luke: What's that?
Obi Wan: It's your father's fountain pen, a more civilized writing utensil, for a more civilized time.

Re:detention for disobedience

[davidsyes]

Do we know if this teacher or the school ARE "knowledgable" and they are shills for msoft? It's possible they are getting dollars and constraints from mshaft and that they detected the kid is smart enough to block their ads going to computers (kids' or the schools').

If someone said "nuff's enough" and tried to shut the kid down, then regardless of history of disobeying orders, if he doesn't want shit adverts distracting him, then he should have the right to block those ads provided his tools of preference aren't immediately threatening to the network.

Imagine if kids decided "WE DAMN DON'T WANT TO SEE ADVERTS DURING CLASS, and stepped up anti-soda-on-campus campaigns, and demanded more sandwiches and fruits and veggie and tried to kick McDonalds and Taco Bells off the campuses. Not only would the marketers balk, but the school authorities try to clamp down (for fear of losing budgetary supplemental income)...

Hell, right now, I'm using Firefox, and I've got so much doubleclick bullshit and dozens of other cookies block that my Firefox won't even right-click-reply-in-new-tab. Scrolling isn't working, and page scrolling is rickety, all because Slashdot's sponsors cookies are being blocked by ME.

I suppose that kid could be screwing up data collection, or the teacher is an ms shill, or the school's IT consultants/contractors think the kid is a rogue who will try to harm the network, or the contractors are ms-shills and are using Firefox as a red herring to punish the kid. I'd rebel, too.

I guess dumbass principals and teachers like these, and defiant kids like him will surely add fodder to finally make possible a worthwhile US-version of Battle Royale. (Many hard-core BR/BRII fans feel there isn't much in the US to make a US version of BR come remotely near the intensity of BR... But, the current administration and schooling officials seem to want to instigate one with pro-ms stance/anti-OSS in pockets here and there...)

Re:detention for disobedience

[slapout]

What if he used Portable Firefox from a USB drive?

Re:detention for disobedience

[jdjbuffalo]

If you're that concerned about people installing unapproved software on your machines then you should disable admin rights for everyone except yourself. Expecting people to just know better will get you nowhere, even in a corporate environment where people could lose their jobs they still won't follow that policy.

And your idea of expelling a kid for installing unapproved software is so far out in left field that I'm getting the distinct feeling that you are one of those power-hungry-Napoleons that many schools are full of these days.

Re:detention for disobedience

[Sciros]

Wow that's fantastic. I would have expected at least white and yellow, since our *own* star, aka the Sun, isn't exactly white. But then again I was watching The Soup and they had a clip where one of the hosts of The View wasn't sure if the Earth is flat or not. So, um, yeah.

Re:detention for disobedience

[jedidiah]

> Ever try to clean up a mess caused by people who don't know what they are doing, even when they didn't.

What? You re-image the machine like any competetent IT drone.

Machines can get mangled for reasons unrelated to student disobedience.

If you have any business doing the work, it won't be the big deal you make it out to be.

Re:detention for disobedience

[Thaelon]

Yes. It's a stupid rule, but it's the rule. He can talk to someone (like the principal) about it during another time. You can't just be a scofflaw.

Yeah! Down with scofflaws! Those people are deplorable, I never want my kids to grow up and be like George Washington or Thomas Jefferson! err...wait...

It's a stupid rule, but it's the rule.

Tautologies are poor arguments and poorer justifications.

Rules are generally created for a purpose. And when that purpose is no longer served by that rule it needs changed or removed.

Re:detention for disobedience

[AaxelB]

Assuming the students were furnished with functioning fountain pens, absolutely! Although the situation doesn't quite fit, since writing with a fountain pen (as I always do) is orders of magnitude more pleasurable than writing with a ballpoint. As a sidenote, considering writing with a ballpoint is anything but pleasurable, those orders of magnitude add up to a non-negligible "somewhat pleasing."

Re:detention for disobedience

[dvice_null]

> It is easy enough to get authorized, all you gotta do is ask and have a good reason.

Do the student's know this? Have you printed papers on the top of the computers that say: "Don't install your own software, if you need something contact me at xxx"?

We had computers at school, but never was I told that I could get some software I want, installed to the computers. Nor did I ever bulieve that it would even been possible.

Re:detention for disobedience

[sltd]

I think you have it backwards, unless fountain pens are worse than ball point.

Re:detention for disobedience

[mr_matticus]

That's a happy sound bite, but it's utterly moronic here.

This isn't some stand against authority. It's not a principled anything. It's a kid who was given an instruction by someone entitled to do so, and who failed to comply. That's the end of it. It doesn't matter if it's arbitrary that Firefox isn't permitted on the machines. It's not the student's decision to make.

There is no injustice here. This "defy authority" crap is juvenile and pompously self-righteous, but that's par for the course for Slashdot.

If you're asked to print a memo on green paper, print the damn thing on green paper. There is no ground to be taken by questioning the decision. Your adolescent protest notwithstanding, society is hierarchical by design. Deal with it or use it to your advantage, but quit bitching.

Re:detention for disobedience

[tompaulco]

I was once in that situation. It was for a project to explore writing longhand, and we actually had to use a real fountain pen. I saw no reason to complain that I couldn't use a ballpoint. In fact, I thought it was kind of neat that we should do something unconventional like that.
We have no details (as usual) but make leaps to conclusions (as usual) regarding the circumstances. Perhaps the assignment was "Use IE to find information on X". Then Firefox could only be used to attain the end of the project, not the means.
It is good to question authority, but once you have questioned, should you automatically disobey? What if the answers to your questioning are reasonable? Do you assume they are trying to pull the wool over your eyes, or can you just take their answer at face value?

Re:detention for disobedience

[daenris]

No... I just started a new job and unfortunately do not have admin rights on my work computer. However the first thing I did was install Firefox to avoid having to us IE. Once I told it to install somewhere other than the default "Program Files" location, it went along just fine and I'm using it now.

Re:detention for disobedience

[sponga]

Seriously what a jackass, I hope his opinion isn't that bad in the real world at his school or maybe they just don't take his opinion as usual with any IT person.
A simple suspension of 2 days or several weeks of Saturday detention would be much more appropriate.

Re:detention for disobedience

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

"Teapot, meet tempest. Tempest, this is teapot, of whom we were just speaking!

"My, my! Now that introductions have been made, let's try and mix it up a little!"

Re:detention for disobedience

[Archangel Michael]

Actually, too much software still requires Admin Rights to run (Adobe InDesign, used by newspapers and yearbooks).

The problem isn't with installing Firefox, but rather the 15 different browser extensions and toolbars, each with their own version of spyware.

I'm not sure how you get from "ask me" to "Napoleon" dictator. I'm not unreasonable. Apparently it is too hard for you to ask.

Re:detention for disobedience

[LWATCDR]

What teachers hate are know it all students that try to make the teacher look stupid. This teacher could have been an art teacher, english teacher, or goodness know what. Why should they have to know EVERY browser on the planet? If you will READ you will find that the teacher asked the student twice before the student was sent to the office.
Yea I was a smart kid also. I often knew more than my teachers on some subject. As I have gotten older I have learned that there is a right way and a wrong way to do things.
In this case it looks like the kid picked the wrong way.

Re:detention for disobedience

[CFTM]

Well that's nice to know and all and I know plenty of programs that are self-contained within the directory; many video games are put together this way (basically anything put together THQ and many others) but my post is a direct response to the GP's quote of "it's a safe bet that no one would argue that copying an .exe to a Windows drive, even if it does not access the registry, constitutes "installation".

Maybe my interpretation is overly pedantic, as I bet the whole directory would work, but there is a distinction between the two IMO.

Re:detention for disobedience

[Archangel Michael]

I install stuff all the time. And if it is good, I add it to the software build for the district I work for, or make current version available on local repositories, so that people can get the current version without crossing the WAN. Ever try to download OO.org?

I find it much easier to manage things if 1)I'm not a dick, and 2) you're not a dick. Seriously it is the pricks of the world that ruin it for everyone else.

Re:detention for disobedience

[atomicthumbs]

Stars don't come in green. Or black. Or (technically) white.

Re:detention for disobedience

[paeanblack]

One last thing, the last thing I want on computers I manage is students downloading and installing whatever programs they think they want onto computers. If they want to use a program they need to request it through the proper channels. If I caught a student installing software on a computer without permission, I'd recommend they be expelled, regardless of what they were installing. Its not their computer.

Would you recommend expulsion for a student that brought in some insect to mount on a slide to look at under a microscope? It is, after all, not their equipment to play with as they see fit.

High school lab computers are there for learning and exploration. If you have them locked down like a supermarket checkout kiosk or bank teller terminal, you may as well not have a lab in the first place.

As an IT admin, it's your job to make sure the computers you administer are configured for the role they serve. In this case, it's your job to make sure the students cannot intentionally or inadvertently interfere with the education of other students. Specifically, students should not be able to:
-Disable the machine beyond a point from which it easily restored to a working state by a teacher or other students
-Degrade the network performance to a point that affects other school activities
-Put the school in legal jeopardy

A competent administrator can accomplish all of the above without locking the machine down so far that it is about as educational as a doorstop. Draconian AUPs with dismissal upon first infraction are appropriate in many places, but certainly not in a school.

Re:detention for disobedience

[RobBebop]

Based on the above discussion, it seems that "reads (and posts on) Slashdot" would be a desirable quality for school districts to use to screen candidates.

Re:detention for disobedience

[Eivind Eklund]

Should the students be allowed to install and run anything they want on school computers? Can you do that at YOUR job? Yes, both presently and at every job I have had during the 15 years since I started in the workforce, excepting a single 3-week consulting gig in 1996 where I used a common workstation and what I was supposed to do only required the use of a text editor and the pre-installed web browser.

This is, of course, subject to "no obvious abuse". My present contract says I can do whatever I want, with the only limitation that I should not do something that hurts or is likely to hurt the company.

Eivind.

Re:detention for disobedience

[orclevegam]

I don't necessarily disagree with some of your sentiment, but you're borderline flaming in that post, and probably going to get moded either troll or flaimbait. Also your post is kind of hard to read and seems to wander all over the place. You're suggestion that the school or teachers are being paid by Microsoft to push IE or ads seems unfounded. It's far more likely that their staff are clueless and just don't realize that there are non-Microsoft ways to do things. Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

Re:detention for disobedience

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, expelled for installing software on a computer. Perhaps you over estimate the value of computers in school, but that seems a little over reaching for installing software. I could see revoking computer privileges or monitoring closer, but expulsion seems to not fit the rule they are breaking.

Also, as to the right to vary from instruction, that is what made my time in school so valuable. The teacher would be going over basic typing and allowed me to pursue more interesting areas of computing. But perhaps you are correct, schools these days are often used to teach that students need not question authority, try new and better ways of doing things, but to be instructed on the methods of being a good little factory worker.

Re:detention for disobedience

[MBCook]

Rules are created for a purpose. But if you want them changed, then you need to try to get them changed. You don't just start ignoring them. Are you telling me that Jefferson and Washington went straight to declaring themselves independent? Or did they try to get it changed and then when that didn't work they did it?

They tried it the correct way first. When that didn't work they moved on to stronger tactics.

The kid wasn't in danger by following the rule for the next 45 minutes until he could talk to someone about it. He over-reacted.

Re:detention for disobedience

[guardian-ct]

OK, er... stupidity doesn't necessarily correlate with being a microsoft shill. Anyhow, the school claims it was a hoax, and I think that there's a good possibility that the school is correct. Bad grammar in the incident description, not including "Incident type", odd formatting for "Consequence: Detention Consequence". It just seems a bit off.

Re:detention for disobedience

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

Every fascist justifies their means by waving the "Anarchy" bogeyman in front of people.

"If we don't arrest the Animal Rights protestors, there will be ANARCHY!"

That's just crap. We derive authority in our society, when it operates best, from the consent of the governed.

Democracy or the rule of law aren't things; they're a bunch of shared assumptions about how people should behave.

The question you're asking is about the survival of government; can government founded on the idea of deriving its legitimate power to act from the consent of the governed survive and prosper?

The answer is, always, maybe.
(It's a process, not a state; if the process stops, the condition goes away.)

None of what's going on is, particularly, a problem of political institutions or parties.

It's a consequence of three things.

People act in their perceived best interest; the percentage of the population who constructs "best interest" in broad or altruistic ways is always proportionately tiny. So almost everyone is going to act in the ways that increase their relative social status, because, fundamentally, that's what band-living ground apes do. http://sideshow.me.uk/sdec07.htm#12162355

Better stop dreaming of the quiet life / 'Cause it's the one we'll never know
And quit running for that runaway bus / 'Cause those rosey days are few
And - stop apologising / For the things you've never done,
'Cause time is short and life is cruel / but it's up to us to change
This town called malice.

Re:detention for disobedience

[Archangel Michael]

I agree that we need to teach real thinking. However there has to be bounds to limit what goes on in a classroom. Chemistry is dangerous, Football is dangerous, and in appropriate use of computers is also dangerous. Maybe not to the same level (blowing things up, blowing a knee, blowing a configuration). Part of teaching is not teaching facts, but why things are the way they are.

The question is, how do you tell a black hatter, from an idiot, from some random kid intalling something he saw on slashdot? Teachers don't have the time to manage 35 Kevin Mitnicks.

The problem isn't the one kid, its the one plus the 34 others in the class.

Re:detention for disobedience

[damn_registrars]

Securing the PC just makes the teacher's job easier, but it's not the responsibility of the IT department to run the class.
I agree half-way with you on that one. I agree that securing the PC makes the teacher's job easier, however I would argue that it also makes the IT jobs easier because of the long-term implications of leaving systems wide open for students. Furthermore, I don't see how you could see that being a case of that being "the responsibility of the IT department to run the class". I believe that the IT department should have reasonably rigid rules for the PCs that the school has to follow. In particular, I really hope that the school doesn't have every user logging in with administrator privileges - though I know that may well be an irrational hope.

So ultimately, I will agree that based on the letter it appears the student did not follow the teacher's orders as said. On the other hand, we don't know exactly how far the student had to go to do so. We also don't know what the student needed to view on the internet - maybe the student had a reason to need firefox?

Re:detention for disobedience

[adisakp]

Would you say the same if the teacher had ordered to use a fountain pen instead of a ball point?

More like using a pen instead of a #2 pencil on the scantron so the teacher has to grade it by hand.

Re:detention for disobedience

[__aaxwdb6741]

Schools should be teaching "right tool for the job", not "One person has the right to decide everything".
Teaching "right tool for the job" should be done by telling about the (dis)advantages of each tool (If neccesary) and let the student decide for himself.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather prefer my children aren't brought up to be mindless drones.

Captcha: misused.

Re:detention for disobedience

[daenris]

Well, I was merely pointing out the flaw in your comment:

This means that the user either had administrative access [which is the fault of the admin, not the user], the software was previously installed by the admins or it's the student's own PC, in which case the teacher has no business telling him how to get a job done. Because there is an alternative in that it is the school's computer, but the student could potentially still have installed Firefox.

Re:detention for disobedience

[Glothar]

That's right. Blame the unions! They are the reason why bad teachers exist. How dare they look after the rights of fellow teachers! They just keep asking for more money (despite the fact that they have some of the lowest salaries for any job which requires a university degree and a clean history). They act like they are constantly besieged with demands that [insert teacher here] be fired because Johnny got a B in Math. I mean, what world are they living in? Parents would never do that.

Now, let's remember that all sorts of people suck at their jobs. And that the plural of 'anecdote' is not 'evidence'. And that in your case, the one thing all these teachers have in common is that they were hired by your school district. Being close to school districts and workers for quite some time, I can say that I've seen quite a few bad teachers "let go".

Some common sense is needed here. You must understand what it means to truly fire a teacher. If Joe programmer joins ABC Megacorp and writes substandard code for a year or two, ABC fires him. After a week of drinking, Joe polishes his resume and starts looking for a new job where he might have to sweat a little as he explains why he decided to part ways with ABC Megacorp.

If a school district actually fires a teacher (as in: gives a specific reason for dismissal), it is almost a career ending thing. No nearby schools will pick them up. In general the teacher has two options: Find another school farther away who is desperate for a teacher (and almost always paying even less) or start working for the local Barnes & Noble (which probably pays more than a teaching job).

The finality and seriousness of this is the problem. It's not the unions who cause the problems, it's the parents of the school district. People hate hearing this. No one likes being told they are the problem. Schools are so beleaguered by complaints and threats and litigation that it's hard to sort out which teacher is really bad from the one's who aren't willing to give Jill Protestant an A because her parents are very influential at City Hall. By default, union attorneys will protect all of them (just as a corporate attorney would, but let's not get into the habit of treating teachers like ordinary people).

In the crossfire of legal threats and backstabbing, I've seen maybe a dozen or so teachers get fired. Of them, at most half of them were bad. The others were fired simply because they angered the wrong parent. Did anyone from the community speak up for those wrongly fired? No. They whined because the union made it so hard to fire them in the first place. Damn union. It should be easier to end someone's career just because they didn't give my son enough play time on the football field.

Here's an idea: Support good teachers. Help them. Pay them well. Speak up for them when others say that teachers are dumb, talentless, useless, and bitter.

Maybe if the community actually gave teachers some support, the unions wouldn't need to be so protective.

Re:detention for disobedience

[TheVelvetFlamebait]

No surprise here, US schools have become so much about teaching to the test that kids are being taught not to think, but just blindly, mindlessly obey.

I dunno. I'm a relatively recent product of the school system, and I was taught to think for myself, especially in later years. I was taught to argue my own opinions in English, taught to formulate my own theories in History (and sometimes in Geography), even in maths I locked horns with the teacher when I thought he was wrong (and often I was right).

The only subject that I was ever taught to mindlessly obey was computers. I hated the administrator, because he flatly refused to acknowledge what I perceived to be my superior skillz with computers, and that he was, in fact, I dinosaur who refused to change to a better OS like Linux. It took me a while to realise how difficult it is maintaining a computer system in your spare time between classes, with a bunch of know-it-alls giving him unsound advice. The best way was to make everyone follow the same set of rules to minimise the hassle.

In short, I'm not at all surprised that the student got detention. Students come to the school knowing how to think for themselves in the computer arena, they just need to learn obedience as well.

Re:detention for disobedience

[arth1]

Would you say the same if the teacher had ordered to use a fountain pen instead of a ball point?

Absolutely. Especially so when the school provides the fountain pens and everyone is expected to use one.

And you picked a bad example too. That students are no longer required to learn how to use a fountain pen is a major reason why so many students can't write well, holding their pens way too cramped, to the point of often even bending their first finger outer joint, and pressing down too hard on the paper. This in turn leads not only to bad handwriting, but to cramps, tiredness and a dislike for writing. I am all for reintroduction of fountain pens, and that students are made to handle those properly, as well as pencils of various hardness and thickness, before being allowed near a ballpoint pen.

Re:detention for disobedience

[sgholt]

As a IT person, you should KNOW that browsing with Firefox is more secure than browsing with IE.
If I was IT at that school I would have already made the suggestion to switch to Firefox. Turning kids loose on a computer with IE as browser is inviting problems with malware and spyware.
I think the story (if true) only shows the sad state of IT and computer instruction in our schools.

I face the same thing at my workplace, I use a USB drive with portable apps to do my browsing and e-mail...etc. Am I going against IT rules, you bet! I suspect that they are too ignorant to even realize what I am doing anyway. Why don't I work in IT? It doesn't pay as much as what I am doing.
If they want to underpay the IT staff, then thats what they get, a under-performing system.

Re:detention for disobedience

[plague3106]

Obey simply because you're told to? No thanks. The student (which doesn't exist, because apparently this was a hoax) wouldn't have been doing any harm. He wouldn't have been disruptive, nor would it damage the computer in question. Someone shouldn't be punished if there wasn't any harm done.

If you're asked to print a memo on green paper, print the damn thing on green paper. There is no ground to be taken by questioning the decision.

Ahh, you mean like my wife being told to redo charts at her clinic because the paper used was a shade off? Nevermind that meant tossing a bunch of used paper, re-creating on the new paper could lead to errors (if one record were not recreated, for example) and in general be a waste of her time.

Or like when I questioned why we print orders / invoices with white text in black boxes as column headings. No one had a real good reason for it to be that way, but I had a good one for not doing that, namely that they were using more black ink / toner to have that effect.

But you're right, next time I won't question anything.

Re:detention for disobedience

[LaskoVortex]

> If I caught a student installing software on a computer without permission, I'd recommend they be expelled, regardless of what they were installing. Its not their computer.

I'm not sure you know how to administer computers or even the philosophy thereof. You should administer them as if anyone will try anything short of physically compromising them with a power tool (physical security is a different department). If someone "installs" something as a normal user, then it shouldn't be able to affect the computer. If it does, you are not doing your job correctly.

Secondly, even though this story has turned out to be a "hoax", I'm sure its not very far from the truth. The philosophy of teaching in its current form is not about the students' self learning, but about regurgitating tedious information. The "hypothetical" teacher's actions of the story and your attitude are symptomatic of contemporary education. In a perfect learning environment, the teachers would provide learning tools to students and the students would have absolute freedom to explore these tools as much as possible. If some actions are not desirable for the students, then said actions would be disabled via the design of the learning tools. For example--a computer in a classroom would not have the ability to connect to a porn site, etc. In other words, the devices should conform to the needs of the school while the students should have absolute freedom to be creative.

You appear to be a product of the regurgitory educational system I describe because it seems (1) you are incompetent to protect computers, (2) you are incompetent to make them proper learning tools, and (3) you probably don't even acknowledge these facts. Same goes for any teacher or administrator who happens to agree with you.

Re:detention for disobedience

[sykopomp]

because all teachers, regardless of what subject they teach, are absolutely required to be completely savvy on all aspects of technology, including knowing the difference between unknown software that does good things and unknown software that can potentially be used to bypass security measures. Right?

Re:detention for disobedience

[iamacat]

No they don't have to be "completely savvy". I would expect them to be intellectually curious though and not averse to getting cursory knowledge of other subjects that can help with their student's coursework.

Re:detention for disobedience

[davidsyes]

Well, then, it's a good thing this is being claimed to be a hoax. (Either that, or the school is getting so much bad rep that they'd rather it go down as a hoax and "un-detain" the student, and let things cool down....)

But, as for:

"You're suggestion that the school or teachers are being paid by Microsoft to push IE or ads seems unfounded"

How many times did people claim that ms wasn't paying marketing dollars to companies to get them to position ms products more favorably? How many times have we heard that ms punishes non-complying companies by removing advertising dollars? How many times have we been told ms wasn't polluting standards and decision-making bodies only to find out they WERE?

We all know ms doesn't want kids growing up on OLPC and Linux, so they'll do ANY, ANY THING to stem any risk of a tide. Is it really so far-fetched to assert that ms would pay a school?

I think it's a generalization or a mistake(I'm known to generalize or nitpick, even) to say or imply that most schools don't know enough about tech to deal with students. Eventually, one by one, schools with serious problems have to become (or end up becoming)more proactive and it's when they become draconian that they show inflexibility and lack of granular approach to problems (or take the advice of quick-shot consultants).

Actually, it might have been better that this were NOT a hoax. It would bring a raging debate to the fore and possibly even make the trade rags do a series of articles on the status of Firefox a threat (where tight integration with IE is not the topic, but browser compliance, security, convenience, general flexibility... are concerned) as a threat to IE.

Re:detention for disobedience

[Arapahoe Moe]

One last thing, the last thing I want on computers I manage is students downloading and installing whatever programs they think they want onto computers. If they want to use a program they need to request it through the proper channels. If I caught a student installing software on a computer without permission, I'd recommend they be expelled, regardless of what they were installing. Its not their computer.

Of course you would have them expelled since you're a pretentious asshole (go re-read the rest of your post for the evidence of that buckaroo). If I was your boss, I'd have you fired for recommeding such a blatantly excessive and inappropriate response. Prime example of WTF were you thinking, right there.

Re:detention for disobedience

[ross.w]

There is such a thing as Portable Firefox. I use it myself because it installs on a removeable USB disk and leaves nothing behind when you are done. Keeps everyone relatively safe.

Re:detention for disobedience

[Akzo]

If a police officer pulled you over and requested that you use a turn signal when changing lanes and you proceeded to not use a signal right in front of him then yes, you should be punished. You were just given a warning and you proceeded to continue to break the law.

Re:detention for disobedience

[CFTM]

Ahh well then, that blows my whole comment up :)

I'll go back to being a n00b

Re:detention for disobedience

[mr_matticus]

Obey simply because you're told to?

When you're in an environment that requires it, absolutely. There is nothing to be gained by being contrary and flippant for procedural contexts.

He wouldn't have been disruptive, nor would it damage the computer in question. Someone shouldn't be punished if there wasn't any harm done.

Refusing to comply with an instruction is grounds for discipline in and of itself. The teacher is in charge in the classroom. The place for protest or complaint is elsewhere. Knwoing when to fight is at least as important as how. The computer is utterly irrelevant. The student does not get to make policy decisions regarding the parameters of the assignment, the authority of the instructor on procedural matters, or the relative merits of a particular software application. It is beyond the scope of the student's discretion and authority. Refusing to comply is deleterious to the clear hierarchy in a classroom environment. Discipline and order is critical when dealing with 30+ teenagers and being stifled in a too-short school year.

Clearly, you don't have experience on the other side of the desks in a classroom.

Ahh, you mean like my wife being told to redo charts at her clinic because the paper used was a shade off?

Absolutely. There are procedural requirements to filing and sorting, which is essential in any litigation and insurance interactions at the administrative level. Forms are standardized for a reason. Knock bureaucracy all you want in passing, but it is essential to the efficient operation of large organizations and critical when you're receiving boxes of documents and billing out at $500+ an hour.

That's completely independent of the life-saving potential that clarity and standards and practices serve in a medical environment.

re-creating on the new paper could lead to errors (if one record were not recreated, for example) and in general be a waste of her time.

Then she is either incompetent or overworked. If done correctly the first time, the problem would be avoided. Good habits are essential in an industry involving the care of other lives. In that situation, like here, there is nothing to be gained. There will not be a paper liberation, a tactical victory, or anything else. It is a complete waste of time and energy to refuse to comply with established procedure, especially where it saves lives, saves money, and protects liability.

Or like when I questioned why we print orders / invoices with white text in black boxes as column headings.

Clarity and error prevention. It uses a negligible amount of increased toner in terms of volume per page and it has a substantial impact on readability and accuracy. It's exactly the same with alternating table rows with a pale grey background.

Even still, raising the question in an appropriate manner is entirely different from refusing to print your invoices in that manner when directly required to do so by a superior, and by doing so, creating a disruption on the office floor instead of dealing with the situation in private.

Your myopic disregard for procedure and its role is just as childish as your linking of "questioning authority" with a software policy at a high school.

But you're right, next time I won't question anything.

Unsurprisingly, your broad strokes miss the point entirely. Subtlety and precision clearly are not valued highly. Firefox has nothing to do with this issue, nor does principled stands to inappropriate uses of authority, nor does questioning come into play.

This was an insubordinate, disruptive act by a student over a matter which has no moral, social, or economic value and for which no appropriate acts were taken by the student. This student overstepped his authority for no good reason except to be a pain in the ass. The merits of Firefox are not at stake. The practice of being a good citizen and c

Re:detention for disobedience

[rpillala]

One time I tried to show one of the other teachers Firefox because it was the answer to some question she asked me about her home computer. I think it was basically along the lines of her was bloated (as happens) and I suggested that if she cleaned out the spyware and used Firefox she might have an easier time keeping the crap out of her computer. She refused, opting to live with the slowdowns and crashing, because she "liked her MSN better." This without even seeing Firefox. It boggled my mind. She's quite effective as a teacher too because teaching of mathematics has been reduced to teaching a series of discrete unrelated processes. Sigh.

Anyway to the point, are you sure it's got anything to do with the union? Here in Calvert County, Maryland, the school system prides itself on having qualified teachers, but this is because of:

• Maryland laws about certification and high school diplomas
• Status in relation to other school systems who have a harder time getting and keeping teachers (CCPS pays a lot in Maryland)
• Emphasis on "highly qualified teachers" per NCLB

which is not to mention that teachers looking for continuing education credits in Maryland have to take classes that meet some certain standards set by the state board of ed. The same state board will bend over backwards with "alternative certification" programs which means certificating people who didn't study education as an undergraduate in college. Maybe the union where you live is indeed full of itself, but that hasn't been my experience as re: hiring and allocating personnel.

The only actual problem I see (as opposed to some imagined challenge to authority) in using a different browser is when students run into technical problems and the teacher cannot support it. For example we use TI-83 calculators for the most part and when someone has a different (yet equally capable) graphing calculator, I can't always figure out how to do the same tasks on it. Or if students use a method they learned earlier in their math career and we are covering new material where their old method doesn't apply, they basically have to start the problem over without necessarily understanding why.

The OP was not true, but both the teacher and the student in that hypothetical could have handled things better.

Re:detention for disobedience

[Scudsucker]

RTFA. The posted letter is the schools side, and it makes no mention whatsoever of the student "mouthing off". So it probably went like this:

T: Look up X on the internet and do a report.
S: Ok (loads Firefox)
T: I told you to do this report.
S: I am! Firefox is a browser just like IE.
T (later): I told you to do the report! Detention!

Re:detention for disobedience

[LWATCDR]

Let me tell you a story. We had a guy at my office that really knew Foxpro. He wanted to write some programs for internal use in Foxpro. Nobody in this office knew Foxpro and we really didn't want to learn it. We told him he could use Foxpro but he would have to use Postgres as the back end. Well he couldn't figure out how to use Postgres as the back end and then tried created a little utility. He was told to not put his little utility into production until it was tested.
He did and it caused issues with one of our mission critical apps.
He later left.
Had we let him build big parts of our infrastructure with Fox we would be in a world of hurt. Was Foxpro a better tool. For him personally yes since he knew it. For the company no.

This story was a total fraud from the start. It never happened but if it had.
Why would Firefox be a better tool than IE? Yes I use FF and have it customized to work they way I want it but would IE have in anyway made the job harder?

Re:detention for disobedience

[arose]

RTFLetter no school policiy of using IE or even unauthorized software are mentioned as grounds for detention. In fact as far as I can tell the student was put on detention for not resuming work. What facts have been omited again?

Re:detention for disobedience

[Archangel Michael]

I actually blame the unions for low salaries, but that is a long story. If you want to make more money, go do something else. Remember, we all volunteered for our jobs. We said yes to the terms and conditions.

As for a fired teacher not being able to find a job? So what? Why fill in substandard teaching just to protect a bad teacher? I don't get that at all.

Parents are part of the problem, but teachers, administration, students are as well. I know from being a parent, I feel almost helpless with regard to schooling my children. I have NO choice, everything is assigned to me. I can't make sure my kids avoid the bad teachers, and I can assure that they will get good ones. And no complaining amounts to any changes, because we can't fire the bad teachers.

And don't tell me that there aren't any bad teachers or that they are rare. I walk into classrooms all the time, and it pisses me off as to what passes for "teaching" today. Sex Education from the likes of Rikki Lake, Teachers spewing their leftwing/rightwing hatred at Bush/Clinton, Capitalism, Socialism, Mexicans, Muslims, Christians, Evolutionists, Creationists ........

I've seen it way too often. Most teachers do a pretty good job, a few are great, and a few are aweful, we can't really reward the great ones, or get rid of the aweful ones. Thanks to the Union, where everyone is treated exactly the same regardless of merit, skill, dedication or otherwise. I'd love to see GOOD teachers get rewarded by paying them MORE than average.

I've known good teachers who've just quit because of the crap the bad ones cause. I'd wish the Union would support the good teachers that are giving up rather than support the bad ones that deserve to be culled from the ranks.

Re:detention for disobedience

[arose]

We have no details (as usual) but make leaps to conclusions (as usual) regarding the circumstances. Perhaps the assignment was "Use IE to find information on X".

Yes we do, we have the school letter explaining the circumstances, they didn't mention any "use IE" assigment. Now there might have been one, but then I'd be forced to conclude that they suck at explaining things...

Re:detention for disobedience

[Scudsucker]

When you're managing a bunch of computers, or have a lesson plan designed in a certain way, the most obnoxious thing a student can do is try and install different software or operate things differently.

Then the school should lock down it's network.

Re:detention for disobedience

[Scudsucker]

The problem isn't with installing Firefox, but rather the 15 different browser extensions and toolbars, each with their own version of spyware.

Um, that's IE's problem, slick. If anything you'd be freaking out over using Microsoft's web browser...I'm sure you could work in a lame anti-union rant on that subject, as well.

Re:detention for disobedience

[Champion3]

I used to install my own software -- as in code that I wrote myself -- to plug security holes in their own computer labs. Does that count?

Re:detention for disobedience

[brizzadizza]

I'm tired of the "teacher's don't get enough support, pay them more" meme I hear constantly. Teaching is a job with ample benefits and a salary at or above the average wage in America. The median wage for a first year teacher is around $40,000 a year* with guaranteed benefits, time off and guaranteed raises over time. Try getting that at Barnes and Nobles where the starting wage is around $8.00 an hour, raises are not guaranteed, good luck with getting your benefits (how many managers shave off hours to keep employees out of the full-time bracket to keep store costs down?) and your schedule will vary week to week. If as a barnes and noble employee I were to work 40 hrs a week at $8 an hour what would my salary be? $16640/year! Mind you thats for working ALL 52 weeks in a year.

I'm not saying teaching isn't a demanding job, but I read over and over how they could make more money at some crap retail job and they need to be payed more. Its an elitist and annoying idea that as someone who has worked in many industries bugs the bejesus out of me. Don't think low-end entry level jobs are hard, work one for a year and tell me why EVERYONE is clamoring for a better job. Starting wage for a construction laborer in Orange County CA, just about $10 an hour. Physically intensive, massive time-sink (6am-6pm days are common), unstable pay(rain? no work, job done? no work, client not paying for the remodel, no pay) if you're not working union you're unlikely to be receiving benefits. What about warehouse work? Or secretarial, or clerical or what have you. What about office jobs? And unlike teaching, in order to be payed substantially more in any of these jobs you have to take on more responsibilities. You're unlikely to make more than $12 an hour at any retail store as a cashier/information associate. Want more money? Fight hard to be a manager. After 6-10 years in construction you'll cap out at around $20-25 an hour... don't like it? Become an independent contractor or learn a highly technical skill (welding, ornamental iron, plaster) With teaching on the other hand, you have the same responsibilities year to year and you still get substantial wage increases. First year teacher has between 30-35 students/class, 20 year teacher has between 30-35students/class. First year teacher teaches the state approved curriculum, 20 year teacher teaches the same curriculum. Teachers put in many hours outside of class? Sure do, but in the comfort of their own homes, in front of their TV grading children's papers! A 60 hour work-week for that supremely dedicated (and likely just starting) teacher is not the same 60 hour work-week a roofer or a mason puts in.

The kind of arrogance implicit in the statement: "I could make more money working at x retail store" is staggering. If that's true then do it, go there and after a year of dealing with all the bullshit that goes into entry-level work, and dealing with all the snooty sops looking down on you for being behind that register and dealing with all the managers on little power trips and dealing with barely making ends meets even though you're not living particularly high on the hog and dealing with the mind-numbing monotony of the same soul crushing work with no glimmer of meaning to be found and then say how happy you are to not be teaching any more. Tell me about the meaning you've found in working at B&N, let me hear about the wonderful financial decision it was then and how teaching was such a dead end because of the lack of support from parents and communities. I'll be interested to know the responses from family and friends about what a respectable job you've managed to get. But until then don't even pretend for a moment that teaching isn't a supported job. Don't suggest or imply that the community at large better rewards the people at the very bottom more than the "omni-suffering, omni-dedicated teacher/hero who selflessly devotes each and every second to compassionately and intelligently guiding

Re:detention for disobedience

[dotgain]

Anonymous, Coward, Ad-hominem?

There could be any reason he chose that nickname, many of which might not be claim authority / superiority.

Re:detention for disobedience

[jdjbuffalo]

The "Napoleon" comment was referring to expelling someone because of a minor infraction.

If, for example, they intentionally release a virus that cripples all the schools machines for weeks then it would be reasonable to expel them. However, expelling them for installing a benign software package is asinine.

I work in a tightly controlled corporate environment and anyone that has admin rights, and knows it, has unapproved software installed on their machine. Most of it is very benign and doesn't cause a problem. If they are found to cause a problem then their admin rights can be taken away or in very rare cases they can be written up. But I've never seen anyone fired for it provided it wasn't something like a virus. However, under your rules all those people would have been fired. If that happened then we have almost no one left at the company. It's just an unreasonable response to a common IT problem.

BTW, if someone does screw something up then I'm usually the one that has to clean up the mess.

Re:detention for disobedience

[Scudsucker]

And you sir, are an apologetic for anarchy - assuming the guilt on the part of the authority.

No, he's not, because...

The facts of the case are not in dispute

The student was told to do an assignment on the Internet. Student proceeds to follow the assignment using Firefox. Teacher tells the student to close Firefox and do his assignment. Student points out that he is doing his assignment. Student gets detention. The parent isn't arguing for anarchy, he's arguing for an ounce of common sense.

Re:detention for disobedience

[Scudsucker]

Should the students be allowed to install and run anything they want on school computers?

If the school doesn't want anything installed on school computers, then they need to set the appropriate security policies.

Blow it out your ass. Just because someone is in charge, in this case a teacher in charge of the classroom, doesn't mean that the school is fascist.

Authority for authority's sake absolutely is fascist. Blow it out your own ass.

Re:detention for disobedience

[Scudsucker]

This isn't some stand against authority. It's not a principled anything. It's a kid who was given an instruction by someone entitled to do so, and who failed to comply.

If it's a stupid instruction, it's a stupid instruction. A spade is a spade, and cracking the whip because you can doesn't make you right, it makes you a jackass.

That's a happy sound bite, but it's utterly moronic here.

The only moron here is you. It's called picking your battles.

Re:detention for disobedience

[Troy]

High school lab computers are there for learning and exploration. If you have them locked down like a supermarket checkout kiosk or bank teller terminal, you may as well not have a lab in the first place.

As an IT admin, it's your job to make sure the computers you administer are configured for the role they serve. In this case, it's your job to make sure the students cannot intentionally or inadvertently interfere with the education of other students. Specifically, students should not be able to:
-Disable the machine beyond a point from which it easily restored to a working state by a teacher or other students
-Degrade the network performance to a point that affects other school activities
-Put the school in legal jeopardy

You're correct when you say "learning and exploration," but you take it in the wrong direction. In a school environment, "learning and exploration" happens within the confines of the pre-existing curriculum. Why teach students about a cell when they can have one-on-one time with a interactive flash animation of a cell? Why just talk about the Civil War when students can play with a 3D Civil War simulation? Why play tapes of French speakers to a French class when they can be connected via VOIP with real French speakers who are learning English? Why teach the unit circle when students can play with it on a screen?

The list goes on and on! That's the kind of learning and exploration that technology allows, but it only works when the computers are in a reliable state. 8 years experience have shown me that this is only possible when the computers are sufficiently locked-down and students use the machines with minimal privileges. Back in the day, I ran a Win 98 lab. My school was on the late edge of the tech curve, and so sufficient security software was lacking. I ended up having to reimage the lab every few weeks as machine after machine went down to student after student loading useless crap on them. If I wanted to fix the machine during class, I'd have to burn 5-10 minutes (up 25% of my teaching period) silently cursing at a monitor instead of teaching or helping students. Over the years, we've gone from Win 98 to XP to Linux w/XP over rdesktop. Students now have a network store where they can keep files, but no install privileges on the machines. Now learning and exploration *is* happening in my lab, because when I try to show my students something cool, the machines remain working. They don't labor under the weight of god-knows-what installed and running in the background.

Here's the heart of this issue: I've taught a lot of cool things over the years. C++, Java, web design, 3d-modeling, image manipulation. We would spend some time talking about TCP and IP and how the Internet works. We would learn about fractal terrain generation and modeling natural phenomena. All of my classes were centered around open-ended projects with lots of opportunities to play, explore and push the limits of your understanding on your own. Given all of this cool stuff and all of the opportunities to challenge oneself and grow, the average kid on the average day would rather spend 1.5 days of a 5 day project doing the bare minimum, just so they could play jewelbox for the remaining 3.5 days. There were plenty of kids who stood out and really pushed the boundaries on their own. A number of kids surprised me, and quite a few kids experienced a lot of success in my class while struggling in other classes.

Still, when the average kid on the average day would rather stare at a monitor and surf the web for screen savers instead of actually learning the material, leaving the computers in an unsecured state is asking for a lab filled with malfunctioning machines. This is true regardless of who is leading the class and how expert s/he is at maintaining discipline in a classroom. The teacher can't be everywhere.

Re:detention for disobedience

[Tastecicles]

Hear hear! I've always questioned authority (nay, spat in the face of it and called it a bastard at times), and whenever I could, done my own thing at my own pace and for my own ends. OK, this means I'm not holding down a "job" job eg factory or line work, but that's not me anyway. I'm a creative person who loves nothing less than to find interesting solutions to interesting problems. I THRIVE on challenge. I get BORED SHITLESS doing the same thing every day. I will NOT stick a job where I'm not doing my own thing. I will NOT stick a job where conformity is the name of the game. I guarantee you unusual and invariably successful solutions to any unique problem you throw at me. As for authority in government, they couldn't find their own arses with both hands, so no way I'm trusting them to tell me how to find mine!

Re:detention for disobedience

[Alegery]

However, I can equally assure you that the Teacher's Union is so high on itself that it wouldn't allow having a non-teacher teaching anything, let alone other teachers. There is this underlying current of elitism in many teachers. In what universe are people living where teacher's unions are so powerful? It sure isn't this one. Most states have outlawed teacher strikes which removes their only leverage--period.

Re:detention for disobedience

[mr_matticus]

Stupid or not, it is a valid instruction from someone in a position to give instructions. The detention was for insubordination, plain and simple.

It is called picking your battles, and if you think not following the directive of an instructor in an academic setting is some sort of crusade for righteousness, it's a sad state of affairs. There are real, honest-to-God battles to fight. A mouthy and insubordinate 17 year old failing to do as instructed is not one of them.

It could not possibly matter less whether he was told to use IE or Firefox, nor could the reason why one was chosen over the other be less important.

Re:detention for disobedience

[ddcc]

The difference is that you don't have authority over mass transportation. As an IT person, you have authority and responsibility for the computer network. As a driver, you're at most a bystander, not an authority figure.

Re:detention for disobedience

[MarcoG42]

The point I was trying to make is that expelling a child because he installed whatever on a school computer is a bit severe. Leave it to the Slashdot Horde to take it to the extreme.

Re:detention for disobedience

[WilliamX]

Uh, no. It doens't show that the kid can think for himself and solve his own problems. If he could do those things, he would have complied with the teachers command in situ and then later found time to talk to the teacher when it would not be disruptive to the classroom and made his case. Then the teacher would have more information on which to base their decision and could seek guidance from those in the school or district or can be trusted to provide advice to the teacher on these types of situations.

THAT would have been a great way of showing good problem solving skills. Disobeying during class, just because he didn't see a valid reason for the instruction, only shows that he has no respect for authority, and no sense of how to properly deal with problems and difficult situations.

Yes, I know this whole story is a hoax, but had it been real, the detention would have certainly been valid, and the kid would have hopefully learned a very very important lesson about how to handle those types of situations not only in the rest of his academic life, but in his "real" life as well.

Re:detention for disobedience

[WilliamX]

If the hypothetical kid was being expelled for not following this single instruction for the first time, you may have had a point. But since that wasn't the case, the hypothetical kid was being given an appropriate punishment, and thus you are being nothing but over dramatic.

Now if the kid had a long history of disobediance, had many detentions and suspensions for his disobediance, then maybe a more harsh punishment would have been in order. In this case, had it been real, the kid would have served detention, NOT for using Firefox, but for not following the instruction of his teacher.

Re:detention for disobedience

[WilliamX]

You are very right about most of your points, however, just because hte student has found something the teacher isn't aware of does not mean that he disrupts the class when the teacher has given him/her an instruction. Even if, as in the hoax case that started this whole thread, the student is correct in that firefox could have been used to complete the assignment, that does NOT excuse him for not following the instruction.

Critical thinking and problem solving would mean he would follow the instruction, since there is NO immediate harm in not following it, and then seek to resolve the issue later with the teacher one on one, or via the appropriate school channels, resulting in the teacher being properly educated in a way that does not disrupt the class situation (of having to be in charge and directing 30+ other students through the same course work), and in the student learning how to handle his problems correctly in the future.

Re:detention for disobedience

[WilliamX]

Those are great points about firefox. And it would have been great to have them made to the teacher and to the school. But the time to do that was NOT in the middle of class in a classroom. The right thing to do, since there was no harm in following the immediate instruction, was to FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTION, and then later find a way to make the excellent points you brought up, by talking to the teacher one on one, outside of class, or if necessary through other channels in the school.

THAT Would have been an appropriate way to handle it, simply saying that because the student was right, he didn't have to follow instruction is irresponsible and doesn't take into account the realities of classrooms, nor does it send the right message to our kids about how to properly handle their problems, how to utilize problem solving skills, or about how to pick and choose their fights.

Re:detention for disobedience

[MarcoG42]

To begin with my original comment was in response to the IT guy's hypothetical kid installing *anything*. He didn't stipulate whether or not it was a repeat infraction. I assumed, from his tone, that it was a first time infraction. Regardless: Expulsion = No more school for you in this district *EVER* Suspension = No more school for you for n days Expelling a student for installing X program, even after n infractions is a very severe punishment usually reserved for the most severe infractions: Bringing a weapon to school, beating up kids constantly (or teachers), selling drugs, etc. Again, my point was that the guy I was responding to was being a little over-reactive in how he would treat an infraction of this nature, repeat or not.

Re:detention for disobedience

[ddcc]

That's standard policy for most schools. I think I got banned from computer usage for an entire year because I was deleting a HKLM/Software key belonging to MyWebSearch or some other piece of adware/spyware.

Re:detention for disobedience

[MarcoG42]

I got detention for altering my assigned desktop's startup .bat file to ask a series of obnoxious questions at boot asking the user if they would like to boot windows. Each answer would lead to yet another question and the questions just cycled through forever. Teacher didn't know about ctrl+c. He was cool about it, though. Never said anything when he'd see me playing games we weren't supposed to have access to. Ahhh...how I miss middle school.

Re:detention for disobedience

[Attila Dimedici]

The reason that a teacher that got fired can't find another job is because it is so hard to fire teachers. A study in New York State said that it cost over $175,000 to fire a teacher and if the teacher appealed the cost jumped to over $300,000. A year or so ago, I had a reference that gave the cost of firing teachers in various states throughout the country, but I can't find the link anymore.
Based on how expensive it is to fire a teacher, there is no way that someone is going to hire a person to teach who was so bad that another school district went through what it takes to fire a teacher.

Re:detention for disobedience

[uglyduckling]

I think I got banned from computer usage for an entire year because I was deleting a HKLM/Software key belonging to MyWebSearch or some other piece of adware/spyware.

That's entirely unreasonable and action should have been taken against the school. If the school doesn't understand the technology, they should tread very carefully before taking action against pupils. Yes, you were interfering with the system, but for good motives and at worst that should be considered a misdemeanor, not worthy of a long-term ban.

Suppose a pupil was walking down the corridor and saw a live electrical cable hanging loose. A sharp pupil might find the distribution board and isolate the corridor before reporting the problem, to leave the cable there for the shortest length of time (this is exactly the sort of thing I used to do at school). Now, maybe the pupil should be disciplined for interfering with the electrical system, something that could have serious consequences, but they should also be thanked (maybe off the record) for doing the right thing. Hopefully, in a decent school, the net effect would be nothing more than a verbal wrist slapping. Removing a registry key isn't that urgent/important, but then the consequences aren't that severe either, at worst re-imaging the hard disk.

In reality, teachers are scared because they don't understand the technology and know that most pupils understand it much better than they do. Therefore they feel the need to come down hard on anyone viewed as being out of line.

Re:detention for disobedience

[shutdown -p now]

You know, reading all the replies about "obeying the authority" in this discussion somehow seem to me to be much stronger argument for the "USA becoming a fascist state" theory then all the Bush&co shenanigans.

Re:detention for disobedience

[shutdown -p now]

student refused to do what the teacher said

Correct.

which was a reasonable request

Incorrect. The teacher was within his authority to demand this, but it was not a reasonable request.

The students don't run the classroom, the teachers do (or are supposed to).

The teachers are not supposed to run the classroom as they see fit. They are supposed to do so rationally. That's what's lacking in this case.

Re:detention for disobedience

[plague3106]

I had a longer post written, but it got lost. Oh well. Too much effort for a troll anyway. Next time you try to troll though, don't claim to know more about a situation that the person you are trolling was personally involved in. It makes you look stupid and your trolling obvious.

The coloring has nothing to do with health or safety standards, and the colors are a shade off. If it WAS vital, the colors would be completely different. As it was, no one notice the wrong shade color being used for SIX MONTHS, and that was about five and a half months before my wife even worked in the office. The white text in a black box does nothing for clarity or preventing mistakes; since I've changed them to bold black text in white, the only thing different is the $200,000 savings in toner / ink saved.

Finally, don't accuse the person you're trolling of being way too broad then close with a statement like this: If a teacher tells you to stop doing something while you're sitting in a classroom, you do it. If you have a problem with the imperative, you make use of the appropriate venue to deal with it.

Re:detention for disobedience

[Glothar]

Precisely.

Firing a teacher means that their performance or behavior was so bad that they are unsuitable for employment. I think a lot of people are stuck in this corporate mentality where its okay to be fired because you made a bad decision or because you said the wrong thing to the wrong person.

In this area, a teacher who is fired is essentially blacklisted in six (or more) states. Employment simply won't happen.

The point here is that some people want to fire teachers because their students have low scores, or because they said something insensitive to their child, or (much more commonly) because they didn't bend over backwards to make little Jimmy's life easier. At least in this area, the main purpose of the union is to protect teachers against that sort of stupidity.

However, the reality of the situation is that the grand majority of requests by parents to get rid of teachers are based on selfish, prejudiced, and stupid ideas of the parents and not any actual misconduct or lack of ability.

To toss out some anecdotal evidence: I know probably around a dozen educators and on average they've probably been involved in a dozen lawsuits each. About half of these are seeking to get a teacher fired (occasionally by assigning a punishment which requires termination). None of them worked, but all of them required union lawyers to help protect the teachers. One might suggest that I only know crappy teachers, but the fact that all of these cases were dropped or dismissed by a judge seems to show their actual merit. Under that barrage of distrust and lack of respect, I would hope that the teachers unions would work hard to defend the teachers. At the very least, you can see why the union needs to exist. Even on my salary, I'd quit any job that required me to pay for an attorney to defend me every couple years. It's just not worth that sort of abuse.

Ironically, it's the schools who usually know who the bad teachers are, but history has repeatedly shown that people can't stand the idea of giving schools the ability to control their own staff. Perhaps if there were less frivolous complaints and lawsuits by parents, it would be easier to take the real complaints seriously.

Re:detention for disobedience

[Glothar]

A few quick notes:

When I look at the page you supplied, I see different statistics. The way I see it, the median wage of the highest paid section of all k-12 teachers is $41K. That's not first year teachers, that all teachers. Of course, that's with a two month block of time off, sure, but no vacation outside of it.

The actual median wage for a first year teacher (again, according to the page you supplied) is $33K. And that's across all types of teachers. Your comparison to $8/hour work at B&N is somewhat insulting. Remember that all teachers are required to have bachelors degrees. That puts you in a manager position at a retail store, not as Billy-Bob Bookshelver.

However, a manager at B&N can easily pull off a 2% raise every year and they don't have to deal with a community and government which blames them for their children's problems.

Yes, teachers pick their careers. And lots of people decide not to pick teaching simply because of the crappy payscale and abuse they receive. While you were perfectly comfortable comparing teachers to construction workers, you seem to forget that a teacher supposedly already has gone to school to get that specialized training. Why not look up statistics and see what happens when you look at salaries per year of education? Considering that its common for teachers to have the equivalent of eight or more years of post-secondary education, you tell me if they're undervalued or not.

Re:detention for disobedience

[__aaxwdb6741]

(Just to mix examples a little)
If the student had used foxpro instead of internet explorer, he would have been using the wrong tool for the job, because foxpro would have been incompatible with the problem at hand.

Or whatever. You get the point.

Re:detention for disobedience

[ddcc]

Well, they apparently considered it so serious that the librarian (the librarian was pretty much the school IT director) had to call up the district office and have them suggest a punishment. This was the same school where they left a word document accessible to all students on a shared network drive that detailed the removal of a email worm that infected the district. Apparently they didn't realize that the word document had user names and passwords for the school-wide administrator account and the school-wide account designed to manage Norton AntiVirus either.

Re:detention for disobedience

[uglyduckling]

When I was at school 15 years ago the network system was Ethernet (Acorn/BBC Micro based). The network traffic appeared at a fixed memory-mapped location on every station, and passwords were sent plaintext. The root passwords were easily obtained with a simple program that monitored this address on any workstation and wrote the results to a file. A group of us could then remotely access any workstation, monitor the screen buffer and display locally, and even take control of the keyboard.

When they finally upgraded to a PC-based network we figured out that the IT manager chose passwords using unusual words from various posters on the walls of the PC lab. We found the password with a bit of trial and error, used it once and created a stash of accounts with names that sounded like staff members but had full admin rights.

Back then they figured out the BBC hacks and I was banned from the network for a few weeks. They never did work out that we had full access to the PC system. I never got more than a verbal telling off - I'm not sure they even spoke with my parents - these days I would probably have been expelled or arrested. I think they worked on a 'friends close, enemies closer' because I saved them a fair bit of money in support costs when things went wrong.

Re:detention for disobedience

[Rakarra]

Blow it out your ass. Just because someone is in charge, in this case a teacher in charge of the classroom, doesn't mean that the school is fascist.

Maybe not in itself, but I would say schools are some of the most fascist organizations in our society. The rigid 'authority for authority's sake' environment was far harsher in my school than in any business I've been to in the years since graduating, and I don't believe it prepared us for how society would function 'in the real world.' That's just something we ended up picking up on our own.

Ah.

[Stanistani]

I think we can all safely jump to conclusions here and make some truly insane comments - GO!

Re:Ah.

[Facegarden]

Clearly the teacher was on cocaine. -Taylor

Re:Ah.

[morgan_greywolf]

You're right! It's obvious that the teacher in question is actually a super-secret spy working for Microsoft. They are trying to stamp out Firefox usage at all levels, even amongst school children! Everyone should be using IE, in their view, and they'll stop at nothing, even planting "teachers" in classrooms to make their message known!

Re:Ah.

[Praedon]

Clearly this teacher is the sister of the cousin of the butcher of the brother of the nephew of the aunt of the brother of the friend of the half brother of the sister-in-law of the cousin of the friend of the friend of Bill Gates....

Re:Ah.

[h.ross.perot]

Jump to Conclusions? Insert Office Space jokes .. here GO!

Re:Ah.

[Stanistani]

Thank you. You do me proud, all of you.

Re:Ah.

[Dan667]

That game me an idea. A "jump to conclusion" floor mat. I am going to make millions unless I am hit by a car first.

Re:Ah.

[Stanistani]

>Update: 12/17 20:09 by SM One of the school officials was nice enough to contact us and let us know this is a hoax. If you are planning on calling the school please refrain from doing so, I'm sure they have had enough excitement for one day.

Well, we all had fun.

Re:Ah.

[Seumas]

Stop trying to spread lies by suggesting this is a hoax!

IT CAN NOT BE A HOAX.

The article that was submitted to Slashdot clearly says

No, really. If this wasn't real, there is no way on earth that sentence would be there.

Goodness me, what superb teaching skills

[Cally]

What an inspiring role model for the next generation. I bet that in 40 years' time that kid's telling their grandchildren the story... "Yes, I never will forget old Mrs Wilkins, heh! heh!"

Well, naturally

[timster]

Our schools are supposed to teach discipline, which most people think means following the rules. As Stephen Colbert says, if the rules were logical then they wouldn't be learning respect for the rules, they'd be learning logic.

Re:Well, naturally

[ZeroFactorial]

Absolutely. We should teach or children to blindly respect the rules, even when those rules are illogical.

Yay for communism.

</sarcasm>

Re:Well, naturally

[tokul]

Our schools are supposed to teach discipline, which most people think means following the rules.

Middle Ages called. They want their teaching method back. USA is democracy. Right? Schools are supposed to educate people to think and not to obey. If you want "healthy working class", put those kids in military camps.

Re:Well, naturally

[ubergeek65536]

Schools are supposed to teach you how to learn, question authority, and think outside the box. Hopefully someone may even teach you a few things your dumbass parents couldn't. If you want to learn discipline enroll in boot camp.

Some things never change

[ComaVN]

Haha, reminds me of how I got yelled at by an irate "computer-science" teacher ages ago, for breaking a monitor (ie. turning it off with the big red power button on the front)

Re:Some things never change

[coolGuyZak]

Didn't I tell you to NOT press the big red button!!!!

Re:Some things never change

[krog]

And it made me recall earning detention in 4th grade by putting the Apple //e I was working on into graphics mode. Didn't matter that I'd finished my work (some BASIC program, probably about ten lines) about 40min early...

Re:Some things never change

[misanthrope101]

I was taking a mickey-mouse "intro to computers" course (required for the degree) and the instructor said that, while old versions of Windows ran on top of DOS, modern operating systems are GUI from the ground up. I pointed out that Linux/BSD can be installed in command-line-only mode, and was unceremoniously told that "this is the answer to the question, so don't confuse people." Accuracy wasn't the point--the point of class is to fulfill the requirements to get the piece of paper. Education it isn't. He also didn't know about Knoppix, much to my dismay. How can you teach a computer course and not know about Knoppix?

Re:Some things never change

[DoofusOfDeath]

How can you teach a computer course and not know about Knoppix?

Because of the level of knowledge students are expected to have after completing the course. A course like that doesn't even require an instructor with a BS in computer science / IT. It just requires a power-user with a lot of patience.

Re:Some things never change

[nahdude812]

FYI, high school computer science teacher requirements are completely off-base, at least in my state (Pennsylvania). I looked into becoming a high school comp sci teacher, and the requirement was a degree in business. I kid you not. Not "a degree in business or a degree in computer science," but you MUST have a degree in business, and there are no other requirements (other of course than the standard educational stuff of getting certificates and whatnot, which are common to all subjects).

To convert my Comp Sci degree, it would have required 2.5 years of education. So the result is that most public school computer teachers have no real computer experience other than maybe using Word / Excel. Technically-minded people who want to teach computers don't want to put 4 years into a business degree (or add 2+ years to their CS degree), and people who got a degree to teach business don't tend to want to teach computers, or else don't tend to be very good at it.

Re:Some things never change

[tor528]

Reminds me of the time in 9th grade that I got a detention for pulling the backspace key off of a keyboard in typing class. This was right after the instructor had said, "we should take the backspace keys off these keyboards so that you guys stop using them and learn to type accurately." I popped it off, proudly showed him what I had accomplished, then I popped it right back on. He gave me a detention for defacing school property.

Re:Some things never change

[The MAZZTer]

I got accused of hacking my school's network by the computer class teacher about 7 years ago in high school.

Turns out someone had set IE's homepage to a local network copy of the school website instead of the online version (which it was supposed to be). Wouldn't surprise me if it was the teacher in question who did it too by accident. Of course, the network share didn't have appropriate permissions so the moment I fired up IE it "hacked" into the share. Apparently it DID have some form of logging, though.

To be fair, I did notice the URL, and out of curiosity navigated a level up and checked out a few other webpages on the local copy. But I only checked out a couple files before I got bored and went back to doing whatever it was I had fired up a browser for in the first place. Still, she blatantly labeled me a "hacker". Uh huh.

This same teacher disappeared without a trace at the end of the year without even giving out the obligatory class award plaques and honor roll certificates that year. We didn't even get the t-shirts she promised anyone who could break 50 words a minute typing the alphabet blindfolded (I got 53).

at least not opera

[Soleen]

I wonder would he get an A from music teacher for using Oepra?

so what?

[abigsmurf]

He was told to use IE, didn't, teacher noticed, told him to use firefox, he mouthed off back to the teacher. Got punished. Nothing to see here.

Headline is a bit sensationalist.

Re:so what?

[tannhaus]

Exactly. The issue here wasn't whether Firefox would work or not. The issue here was he was told not to use it and refused to comply.

There really is no difference here between this and a student saying "No, I've decided I'm not going to get on the school bus to go to the field trip. I met this awesome guy in the bathroom of the mall and I'm going with him in his car instead".

Re:so what?

[caluml]

Exactly. The issue here wasn't whether Firefox would work or not. The issue here was he was told not to use it and refused to comply. And you should always do what you're told, even if it sounds like, or is, not the best option? Baaaa, I will obey, baaaa.

Re:so what?

[PhxBlue]

Nothing to see here.

Except maybe why public schools are having such a hard time of it in the first place. A reasonable teacher might have said, "Interesting -- tell me more about it after class, but for now, stick with the other browser." This teacher, in contrast, played a power game and probably did more to undermine his authority in the classroom than reinforce it.

Re:so what?

[jedidiah]

No. These two examples aren't remotely similar.

Refusing to use IE is much like refusing to eat your vegetables before your meat at lunchtime.

This sort of mindless follower mentality is why like directives regarding what order to eat your lunch in even get considered.

Re:so what?

[King_TJ]

Umm, despite the typo in your message (the teacher told him "NOT to use Firefox"), I disagree that this is a simple case of "nothing to see here".

This is SOMETHING to see and take note of. I have friends studying to go into education right now, and they tell me the trend is moving towards teaching kids to be critical thinkers. Question authority when what you're told runs counter to what you've already learned.

We often speak of the system of "checks and balances" in government as a good and necessary thing, yet in education, it's sorely lacking. Students are considered "disobedient" and subject to punishment if they challenge a statement or order made by a teacher. Some people are currently trying to change this -- but it definitely meets with great resistance by the established ranks of educators who didn't learn to do things that way.

It's one thing to be disruptive in a class for the sake of chaos.... but another to defend one's position with logic and facts. An attempt to clarify that Firefox is a legitimate web browser choice, and not some type of game, malware, or other diversion from the task at hand is not "class disruption".

Re:so what?

[The-Bus]

This may be the first and only time that Firefox has ever been compared to a child abductor. Bravo, sir.

Re:so what?

[CheshireCatCO]

The thing is, the detention report doesn't indicate any form of mouthing off beyond arguing back. If the student were being rude, belligerent, or otherwise unruly, I'd expect to see that documented in the teacher's report -- if only as a cover-your-ass move. If responding to an order you find unreasonable or unfair with a counter-argument is mouthing-off, we've got some serious problems that need addressing here.

Re:so what?

[Znork]

"There really is no difference here"

A more apt comparison would be the student getting a ballpoint pen and being told to use the fountain pen that will regularly place inkblots on the paper, forcing him to start over.

I mean, what kind of workers would we end up with in the future if we teach kids to adopt more effient means of production. I mean, sheesh, soon we'd be using tractors instead of manually plowing the fields. How could we keep employment up?

Re:so what?

[Sloppy]

The article doesn't mention IE. The student claimed Firefox was better, but better than what? We don't know.

Re:so what?

[dougmc]

And you should always do what you're told, even if it sounds like, or is, not the best option? Baaaa, I will obey, baaaa. Well, that IS what high school is meant to be like. We don't let people think for themselves until at least college.

Re:so what?

[mr_mischief]

Give this poster a cookie!

It's entirely possible to maintain authority and not be an ass about it. The teacher was being an ass. You've just given the respone from the teacher that would have not only kept this out of the news, but also earned the teacher some respect as an open-minded (if technologically ignorant) and reasonable person.

Re:so what?

[nku]

I was once told by our sysadmin at work not to use Firefox. I asked him why and I got the answer "Standards". I kept using it and he told my manager about this "non-compliance". My manager freaked out and personally uninstalled Firefox from my machine, revoked my admin access and almost made me write lines. The point I am trying to make is because that was not my machine, I had no business using it my way. When in Rome ....

Re:so what?

[Locklin]

Additionally, a lot of schools have weak client based web-filters, or proxies. And downloading firefox.exe from portable apps, would bypass the filters quite easily.

non story

Re:so what?

[Bloater]

According to the teacher's statement the student was not told to use IE, the student was told to do his work - the student explained that he /was/ doing his work and how it was possible with firefox. The teacher did *not* claim that he/she then explained that the coursework must be done using IE - this is not documented in the explanation of the reason for the detention (and since the student would need a clear instruction of what to do before being able to do it, one would think that this should have been the reason).

It seems like this student still hasn't been told what he's in detention for - you'd expect that to be in his letter home. The letter just says he wasn't doing his work... but he was :/

My old mum gave me my brother's lunchbox once, containing a sandwich filler that made me puke on contact and still does 25 years later. The teacher insisted that my mother could never make an error that would cause such an effect on me (even after I said that the lunchboxes were outwardly identical). 30 seconds later I destroyed four peoples meals and made the classroom stink of vomit for the rest of the day.

Don't just assume that because somebody is getting on in years that they are automatically honourable, super-intelligent, and infinitely wise. There is no statutory cull of wankers at 18 so they go on and get jobs and some of them become teachers.

Some teachers are great, though. I got a pat on the back for wrestling in class, knocking tables over and stuff, because the person I was fighting needed somebody to stand up to him :) Still had to go over to the science building to clean tabletops though :)

Re:so what?

[Tsiangkun]

yes, obey, or rebel and accept the punishment.

Student rebelled. Student got punished.

Have you ever waited at a red traffic light, even though you can see there is no traffic coming ?
Why do you obey that stupid light ?

Baaah, I suspect you too are sheep.

Re:so what?

[uglyduckling]

If the teacher said 'everyone take out their Bic pens and write this essay' and repremanded a pupil for using a different brand of pen, would anyone agree with the teacher?

It's quite likely that the teacher has no understanding of the concept of a generic web browser, and believes that WWW == The Internet == Internet Explorer. In the same way people insist on referring to any computer-based presentation as 'a Powerpoint'. Sometimes it might be right for teachers to insist on a particular piece of software - e.g. if they are specifically teaching how to do something esoteric with that software. If the assignment is generic web-based research then any web browser installed on the computer should be acceptable.

I was always getting into trouble for this sort of thing at school (14 years ago!) and it was nearly always because the staff didn't actually really understand what they were asking. Not just not understanding in Computer Science graduate terms, but clearly hadn't even read Windows for Dummies. I usually got away without the detentions because I would be called back in later on to fix the computer that the teacher had deleted command.com from "to save some space".

Re:so what?

[Paradigm_Complex]

I had points knocked-off in an English class for writing "G-d" in a paper; clearly a typo spell check would have caught and unacceptable. Trying to calmly explain what and why I did that resulted in a "stop making excuses" speech. Fuck ignorant teachers. There could very well be a huge difference between what the student did and your example. If he was getting his work done and the program wasn't causing any harm to anyone else it's none of the teacher's business what browser he uses. However it is the faculties responsibility to keep an eye on their students at all times, for their safety. I ended up being a teacher myself and know first hand that this kind of punishment does absolutely nothing to help anyone baring a sadistic streak in the teacher.

Re:so what?

[Ranger96]

A reasonable student might have said, "Yes ma'am/sir. After class, may I show you this alternative to IE?" This student, instead, chose to ignore/disobey the teacher, and will suffer the appropriate consequence.

Respect works both ways.

Re:so what?

[uglyduckling]

But if you read the article, there's no indication that the pupil was "mouthing off". I'm sure the teacher would have mentioned that in the detailed detention report if he had. It looks as if the pupil explained calmly and reasonably that he was indeed doing his work in a perfectly valid way, but the teacher was insisting that the pupil do his work the teacher's way. Maybe there's times when it would be right to insist on that, but this doesn't look like one of them.

When I was at school I was pretty good at Maths (UK). I would do my best to follow what the teacher said when working through examples as a class, but when it came to doing exercises on our own, unless the question specified a particular method I would work through the problem my own (usually quicker) way. Teachers that were just sitting in and weren't really maths people would look over my shoulder and get very upset with me for 'not doing it right'. Decent maths teachers who knew their stuff had no problem with me, so long as they were happy that I understood the conventional approach too.

Re:so what?

[Carrot007]

No it's just there is a proper way to do things.

If the student believed that having FF available to him would be a benefit then the proper manor to request this is not in a class as (as obviously was the case) the teacher would not have a clue and should just be teaching the subject at hand.

heh makes me feel old though, in my day it was netscape all the way, ie 1 or 2 or whatever (pre 3 certainly) were also on the machines (well the windows ones, heh there is another difference) but were not really any use.

Re:so what?

[The One and Only]

Respect is earned. One does not earn respect by pretending to teach something (using the internet for research) which one knows absolutely nothing about.

Re:so what?

[JustShootMe]

And then expect them to think for themselves with no training or experience.

Which is why we have so many porn movies with college girls.

Re:so what?

[AJWM]

We've got some loony moderators today. Insightful?

In the first case the kid is making an informed decision that doesn't really affect the outcome of the homework. It's just a browser for pete's sake.

In the second case we've got a kid making a stupid decision that could affect his personal safety.

All the difference in the world.

Re:so what?

[Ogive17]

When my parents were in school and were disobedient like that to the teacher they would've been spanked in front of the entire class. Now we're worried about a kid getting a detention for mouthing off to a teacher?

I know when I was in high school if someone publically challenged one of the teachers it was to show off or an attempt to discredit the teacher... not due to 'open thought'.

There is one reason why high school teachers should have the final say, maturity. High school aged kids lack it.

Re:so what?

[AJWM]

Geez, that manager would have had my resignation on his desk within the hour. Fortunately I've never worked for anyone that stupid, they don't usually make it past the interview process. (You do realize that interviews are a two-way process, right?)

That said, there are a couple of necessary-evil apps at work that work better in IE, and for those I use it. For everything else, there's Firefox.

Re:so what?

[Orkie]

Quite the opposite.

Re:so what?

[Scudsucker]

Great, and when you start paying students to go to school, all of you "if you did this at work you'd be fired" guys will have a point.

Re:so what?

[Haeleth]

That said, there are a couple of necessary-evil apps at work that work better in IE, and for those I use it. For everything else, there's Firefox.

There are a couple of those where I work, too -- apps where the IT people go so far as to state flat out, "this app ONLY works in Internet Explorer", and have even put in browser ID checks to stop people trying things out for themselves.

I use Firefox anyway, of course; a combination of browser spoofing (to bypass braindead checks) and Greasemonkey (to fix the non-standards-compliant pages that actually cause the problems) can work miracles.

So, unless you're facing genuinely proprietary crap like ActiveX, I commend Greasemonkey to you as a potential solution to your workplace woes.

Re:so what?

[Scudsucker]

There is one reason why high school teachers should have the final say, maturity. High school aged kids lack it.

Horsehockey. A teacher who breaks out the paddle or hands out detention at the first hint of being challenged is the one showing immaturity and childishness. The only difference between an authoritarian teacher and a spoiled brat is age and a paddle.

Re:so what?

[itsdapead]

He was told to use IE, didn't, teacher noticed, told him to use firefox, he mouthed off back to the teacher.

Except that the letter in TFA completely fails to mention whether the student was told to use (specifically) IE or if he "mouthed off". Since this letter was apparently written by the teacher in order to record and justify the punishment, I think we the Jury are justified in assuming that if the student had been foul-mouthed or abusive then this would have been mentioned.

The letter also fails to mention whether the teacher gave any sort of civil reply to the student's explanation or even looked to see whether the student actually was working on the assignment. If you treat kids with contempt then you will reap what you sow. Enforcing stupid, unjustifiable rules on people doesn't teach respect for authority, it teaches contempt and shows them how to behave should they find themselves in a position of authority.

Getting the name of the offending program wrong on the formal punishment letter is a pretty poor show, too. You don't expect a 100-page legal document, but its reasonable that all the salient points should be present and correct.

UNLESS of course the program really was something called "foxfire.exe" (sic - see TFA) - probably malware or a "stealthed" game - in which case the teacher is totally exonerated and the little brat should get a damned good flog^H^H^H^H counselling - if only to make sure that next time he uses "iexplode.exe" or "msorifice.exe".

Re:so what?

[Scudsucker]

Respect works both ways.

Then the teacher should have shown some.

Re:so what?

[Descalzo]

Where did you find the transcript of the student/teacher conversation? I followed the link and found nothing.

I find it extremely easy to believe this kid got busted for dinking around and made up this story, even to the faking of a document.

Check this link out. Someone else in this thread pointed it out, but hasn't as yet been modded.

Re:so what?

[Scudsucker]

Just curious, were you better at the maths than the englishs? :)

Re:so what?

[Ogive17]

You let one kid talk back and soon enough you have 5 more kids pushing the boundries. Teens are pack animals... Heck, I'll admit to being part of the pack a few times when I was in high school. New teachers were especially vulnerable.

Every classroom had one kid that would challenge authority. If the teacher handled the situation in a way the class understood shenanigans would not be tolerated, the class would be better. If the teacher allowed someone to talk back in a way that could be conceived as defiant, they could lose the entire class.

Re:so what?

[Scudsucker]

And so many college students drinking way too much and hurting themselves or others. Which is always followed up by a community crackdown on underage drinking rather than dealing with the issue with an ounce of thought or understanding.

Re:so what?

[stanleypane]

You assume the student has no history with this teacher. Perhaps this student has had problems with the teacher before? How can you make an assertion that the teacher hadn't already been reasonable prior to this incident?

Oh wait, this is slashdot... Vive la Firefox!

Re:so what?

[LaskoVortex]

> I imagine with this attitude you were in detention a lot as well :-p

I was in detention--a lot. Spent about 1/3 of my days of 4th grade sitting in a curtained box about three feet away from the vice principle for "disciplinary" reasons. Played endless games of chinese checkers with the "counselor" while talking about why I piss my teachers off so much. Generally hated by half of the teachers and loved by none. I think one tolerated me one time--she was a saint.

Now I have an ivy league education and a PhD. I can't say this for the teachers who sent me to D-hall. How about you, sheep boy?

Re:so what?

[Scudsucker]

You let one kid talk back and soon enough you have 5 more kids pushing the boundries.

Pointing out that a teacher is wrong isn't "talking back", it's pointing out the teacher is wrong. That happens to human beings. Parents and teachers with an authoritarian attitude are no better than a six year old having a tantrum in Wal-Mart because the parent wont buy him a Wii - both are unhappy because they didn't get their own way, instantly.

Sure kids can be snots and there are a times when absolute obedience is called for - fire alarms, starting fights, etc. Using a browser other than IE to do an internet assignment is not one of them. Anyone who ever went to school or was raised by parents should be able to recall a time when they got in trouble when they did nothing wrong, or even for following the rules. Or to put it more simply: pick your battles. You might find it works wonders.

Re:so what?

[Joe Jay Bee]

There is no statutory cull of wankers at 18

And being 18, I'm eternally grateful for that fact. I'd be first for the chop, easy.

Re:so what?

[Tsiangkun]

And what, order in the classroom has no dependence on EVERYONE obeying the teacher ?

Obey the teacher or face the consequences, it's actually not an advanced concept.

Re:so what?

[stuuf]

Law enforcement has figured out that you can get quick results (that make you look like you're doing your job well) with little effort by going after symptoms of the problem and not trying to understand where the problem came from in the first place. Instead of protecting real victims of sexual predators, we create simulated crimes and arrest people on a sick reality show so it looks like we're actually helping society.

Re:so what?

[uglyduckling]

Thats why I put "(UK)" after the first time I wrote "maths". In the UK it's correct to write "maths" as a contraction of "mathematics".

Re:so what?

[Scudsucker]

Sorry about that, eh chap? To make it up to you, I'll buy you a mug of sex in a canoe and a bag of jelly babies.

Re:so what?

[uglyduckling]

Okay dokay, toodle pip.

Icon

[WPIDalamar]

I approve of the new story icon :)

Re:Icon

[syrinje]

Shouldn't that foot be clad in a jackboot or something!?

Ignorant Teachers = Problems

[corsec67]

It is a problem when the students know more than the teachers.
It isn't clear if this is a "computer class", in which case this is really bad because teachers should know more than the students in the area they are teaching in.

There is much more leeway for an English teacher to not know how to do integrations/derivations, for example. I don't know if this should extend to stuff the teachers use to teach the class, but it probably should. How can you use something effectively to teach if you don't know how it works?

Re:Ignorant Teachers = Problems

[alienw]

Um, the students almost always know more than the teacher does, at least when it comes to technology. It just sounds like this was a non-technology related class. If the teacher knows his/her subject area (such as English), then it's not a problem.

Re:Ignorant Teachers = Problems

[corsec67]

It wouldn't be a problem, but here the teacher was trying to use technology in the classroom. Which it seems like the teacher didn't understand very well.

It was being made technology-related, by the teacher using it in the classroom.

Re:Ignorant Teachers = Problems

[DrNASA]

No, it's a problem when the student feels like it is necessary to demonstrate in front of the entire class that he knows more than the teacher. "Knowing more in an area" is pretty vague. Do you really expect a flesh and blood teacher to have the sum of all human knowledge at their fingertips? "The stuff they use to teach the class" is also vague. Do you get pissed when the teacher can't turn the projector on? Heck, 75% of ./ is probably employed because of one word: SPECIALIZATION It isn't the teacher's freaking job to know the difference between Firefox and IE (even if it is a computer class that is teaching ANYTHING other than A. web development B. The differences between Firefox and IE Any other course than those two options and the teacher is perfectly fine in not knowing that anything other than IE exists because it DOESN'T MATTER. Were the other kids complaining: "Hey, this site won't render in IE - I'm getting X error"? The teacher has the right and obligation to be in complete control of their environment. The teacher was unfamiliar with Firefox and wanted to kid to close it. Maybe the teacher knew it shouldn't have been installed. Maybe the teacher knew that multiple tabs could aid in cheating or give some other unfair advantage the other kids didn't have being on (crappy) IE. Maybe the teacher knew that IT has Group Policy established that prevents kids from clearing browsing history and cache from IE, but that Firefox wouldn't be limited and wants to make sure that the kid isn't violating web use policy. The fact is - the teacher told him to do something and he refused. Twice.

Re:Ignorant Teachers = Problems

[ThaNooch]

The problem is that computer classes are typically teaching some specific skill (VB programming, MS Office, CAD, etc..) and teachers are trained in that skill. The teachers rarely have inclination to fully master the art of computing because: (1) it's not going to net them any more money (arguable) and (2) they have a family to tend to and don't have the time to study up on best practices. The truth remains, s/he should have been a little more patient; but another truth remains that kids need to be a little more submissive. There is no reason a student should feel that they are not under the authority of a teacher and mouthing off, talking back, or disregarding instructions is punishable by... *gasp* detention. You also get detention for being late to class even if it was because you were firing a particularly stubborn rocket in the b-room.

Re:Ignorant Teachers = Problems

[FireFury03]

teachers should know more than the students in the area they are teaching in.

This is quite wrong. In any subject where students get a lot of hands on experience (especially a subject in rapid development, like computing) you should expect the student to have a greater knowledge than the teacher in some parts of the subject. This is completely natural - the students get more time to play with the "cool new stuff" than the teachers, so you should expect them to be more knowledgeable about the "cool new stuff". However, the teacher is probably still far more familiar with the "boring old stuff", which is probably still extremely relevant. i.e. the student has an extremely good knowledge in a single very specific area, whereas the teacher has a reasonable knowledge in a much broader area.

As an example, the student may know $new_programming_language. The teacher does not know this language - she knows a few older languages. However, the teacher also has a good knowledge of many algorithms. Even though the teacher doesn't know the new language, the algorithms that she can teach the student about can, for the most part, be applied directly to the new language, and many other languages that the student may choose to learn in the future.

Re:Ignorant Teachers = Problems

[azenpunk]

that has no bearing. a teacher should be familiar with all tools used in the teaching of a course. i believe this to include a range of options for all or most tools to ensure that the most suited tool is being used. any teacher using a web browser or requiring one for assignments has an obligation to know about at least firefox and opera. it is perfectly acceptable to disallow the use of these if IE is truly required.

but for a teacher in such a scenario to not even know that firefox is an alternative web browser is simply unacceptable.

treating this as a hypothetical example, as the story seems to be a hoax, the teacher should know about alternative browsers even if for no other reason to make sure his orders to the student are correct and make sense. telling someone to " close [your browser that is perfectly acceptable on a functional level that you are already using to complete the assignment] and open the web browser and complete the assignment" is just simply nonsense.

now, if the student is purposely snarky, then yes disciplinary action is called for, but detention should not be handed out simply to save a teach from an embarrassment he caused himself.

if this is too much to ask of teachers then browser interfaces should be eliminated entirely from normal courses and relegated to classes about the topic.

if it's a non internet/computer/technology class the students would learn more from working through the problems with a pencil anyways. you retain more when writing than when typing and clicking.

teachers need to hold themselves up to a higher standard as well as the students.

Report it right

[Borealid]

It's actually funnier the way the teacher DID report it... 'foxfire.exe', not 'firefox.exe' as the /. blurb says.

Evil is FireFox.exe

[TheGeneration]

OHMAGAWD THIS IS TERRORISM PURE AND SIMPLE! As somebody who is in no way associated with Microsoft I must say that the use of browsers not written by Microsoft is a clear violation of our - their - intellectual property. Clearly this child should be executed for his crimes against our... their... corporation.

Student Given Detention For Disobedience

[ergo98]

While Firefox is indeed a great browser, it is a largely irrelevant part of this sage -- kid runs unauthorized application, is told not to, disobeys instructions and talks back.

Boring.

Sidenote - Do the editors or the submitter start off the tags these days? This story came fresh with 4 tags...I thought it waited until "democracy" spoke. Wisdom of the masses et al.

Re:Student Given Detention For Disobedience

[noidentity]

More exciting stories on the way: Student has to wait until end of class to use restroom. Student denied hall pass. Student drops ice cream on floor at lunch.

Re:Student Given Detention For Disobedience

[BeanThere]

Perhaps the tags come from the firehose version?

Re:Student Given Detention For Disobedience

[geminidomino]

Sidenote - Do the editors or the submitter start off the tags these days? This story came fresh with 4 tags...I thought it waited until "democracy" spoke. Wisdom of the masses et al. Subscribers can tag when the story is still in "the mysterious future"

Re:Student Given Detention For Disobedience

[boteeka]

kid runs unauthorized application, is told not to, disobeys instructions

If the student's work assignment requires a browser, how on earth could a browser be an unauthorized application?

See, here is the major problem, a problem of the educational system itself. It doesn't teach you to create a drawing, a text document, a chart, a spreadcheet (insert your favorite document type here), instead it tries to teach you AutoCAD, Microsoft Word, Microsoft Excel, etc. And even worse: only specific versions of these programs, so when you're out of school you don't know word processing, you don't know spreadsheets, you only know Word and Excel, and IE - to stay with the article. It is like a kid from the kindergarten is told to use only a pencil from a specific vendor, instead of leaving to choose a pencil of your liking.

This is fucking insane. The poor kids are thought only to listen to what they are told to do, and then execute the "order". Do not even blink an eye!

Re:Student Given Detention For Disobedience

[kaoshin]

This should prepare him for the real world where violation of software (i.e. browser) standards can result in severe penalties. In my environment for example, Internet Explorer is required because it is bundled with the OS and patching is already managed through our existing windows patching infrastructure. Yes, it is possible to manage the patching of firefox, but for the deployment team to take on that task you are going to have a fun time convincing management of a business case for a change when all in-house web apps targeted for IE don't render properly in Firefox, and when they already have a "browser that works", and with more critical tasks to focus on. Firefox is more secure for general websurfing, but since you are supposed to be working instead of surfing anyway that doesn't make a good argument. Nevertheless, zealots and power users who don't see the big picture will go off occassionally so you just have to give them a dose of reality which is probably what this kid needs more than a punishment. Unfortunately people are usually more concerned with punishing people than educating them, often because they are less than capable educators.

Student's Side.

[bigattichouse]

Having worked in education for many years (and having kids), I guarantee that the student's side omits mention of defiance or cockiness. This of course doesn't excuse the idiot teacher, but I imagine there is more to it than presented by the submittor. It is astounding how innocent and respectful they believe they were after the fact. I imagine the kid wanted to use a better browser, the teacher got miffed at the install, and they both proceeded to behave poorly. Most likely the browser was just a catalyst in the childish behavior of both. And I say this strictly as having been the idiot teacher.

Re:Student's Side.

[calc]

There isn't much for the kid to need to make up for his side of the story as everything was documented in the official detention notice...

Re:Student's Side.

[Anne Honime]

Having been both defiant and cocky for a long time as a student, because many teachers I had were plain idiots, I surprisingly never had to give a single detention when in turn I steped behind the desk. Know why ? Because I never felt threatened in my teacherhood by a defiant and cocky student. Moreover, I felt it was my duty to listen to his/her objections, and thought that there was a certain possibility that he/she might be right. That's what I call teaching - accepting constructive criticism, elaborating talks, and drawing conclusions. What you're talking about is herding. Completely different job.

Re:Student's Side.

[spoiledlittlelucy]

Actually, the facts listed in the article aren't the student's side at all. If you google for more coverage of this incident you can find a scan of the detention notice, which gives the teacher's reasoning for issuing the detention.

"Today in class ___ had a program launched called Foxfire.exe. I had told ___ to close the program and to resume work but he told me that it was just a different browser and that he was doing his work. I had given him two warnings but he insisted that it was just a "better" browser and that he wasn't doing anything wrong. I had then issued his detention."

It doesn't sound like the work required IE at all, nor does it say anything about installing unauthorized programs, just that the teacher thought the kid wasn't working. Of course the teacher doesn't explicitly state the reason for the detention anywhere in all of that. If this were my kid I would have had to phone the school.

Re:Student's Side.

[Scudsucker]

That's nice. What's the teacher's punishment for acting even more childish?

Re:Student's Side.

[Scudsucker]

Nicely put. If you want to crack the whip anytime a student hints at challenging you, you should join the military and be a drill instructor.

More Information Please

[Xchagger]

There isn't enough information here to really jump on top of the school for giving this kid detention. I worked as a tech in a public school district for just over 5 years, we did our best to keep the school's machines locked down tight. But there isn't a lot you can do against a student bringing FireFox in on a USB drive and surfing the net, bypassing some of our security. (OK, there is a lot you can do to stop this, but I'm not going to debate that now.) The school may have certain rules put forth about running unauthorized software. The student was told to stop and didn't. I really don't see anything wrong with the dention. On top of that, as some others have mentioned, we know none of the back story. Does this kid have a history of being a troublemaker, especially in terms of the computer (we routinely had "reapeat offenders", kids trying to break into the school network and getting caught.) A little more information on the schools rules and exactly what had happened would be nice before jumping on anyone about this.

Oh no, someone got detention for being an ass

[yotto]

I'm sure the student sat the teacher down and explained the pros and cons of Firefox vs IE in a clear and respectful manner, and didn't say "Shut up, hehe, I'm using Firefox. It's better than your crappy IE!"

If you are a jerk to a teacher, you get detention. I knew this when I was in school. When has it failed to be common knowledge?

I'd also like to know if the computer was the student's own or a school one. If it's a school computer, then all bets are off. If it's the student's, I would have said that I don't have IE.

Re:Oh no, someone got detention for being an ass

[jedidiah]

> If you are a jerk to a teacher, you get detention.

If you are not totally subservient to a teacher, you get detention.

I fixed this for you...

Re:Oh no, someone got detention for being an ass

[ArcherB]

If you are not totally subservient to a teacher, you get detention.

Is it not the job of schools to prepare kids for the real world?

I ask because last time I checked:
If you do not obey the rules of your employer, you get fired.

There, I fixed this for you.

Re:Oh no, someone got detention for being an ass

[Scudsucker]

Is it not the job of schools to prepare kids for the real world?

And unless that kid is going to be spending his whole life in the military, cracking the whip over irrelevant issues is not going to prepare him for the the real world.

If you do not obey the rules of your employer, you get fired.

Last time I checked, kids were not paid to go to school.

There, I fixed this for you.

Re:Oh no, someone got detention for being an ass

[PortHaven]

And if the teacher is a jerk to you...you get...detention.

Well, honestly...

[Daemon_Maestro]

This kid sounds like a real douche bag. Do your work and don't be smarmy.

Am I the only one surprised...

[damn_registrars]

... that the teacher even noticed the difference? Really, the displays of firefox and ie are fairly similar, and if you aren't looking at the very top or very bottom of the window, a layperson might not notice the difference at all.

I do wonder what version of windows was being used that the teacher noticed it called "firefox.exe" (and then subsequently changed it to "foxfire.exe" in the write-up).

Re:Am I the only one surprised...

[OglinTatas]

Maybe the teacher DID notice the difference... that he had Multiple tabs open, one of which was www.amInakedornot.com

Internet explorer (before v7) did not have tabbed browsing. /didn't RTFM, browsing amInakedornot in the other tab instead.

Re:Am I the only one surprised...

[ThreeGigs]

Chances are the teacher was using some sort of process monitor to see what was running on the kids' computers.

Chances are also good that the teacher never saw the screen of the kid in question.

And, if the kid installed Firefox, he could have also uninstalled it, deleting all history. Any kid savvy enough to install Firefox is also probably savvy enough to have a good reason to avoid admin lockdowns in IE that prevent one from deleting your browsing history.

Worse? If the program running really *was* Foxfire.exe, not Firefox. I see no one has entertained the possibility that the kid was running malware. Also simple enough to rename utorrent.exe to foxfire.exe.

However, all of the above aside, aren't kids *supposed* to be supervised while on the net?

Essentially by running Firefox, the kid could've gotten around blocked sites, bypassed proxies, and been browsing pr0n with no accountability.

And as a sysadmin having dealt with too many users having installed things on work computers they shouldn't have (did the kid install the Google desktop with FF?), I'm completely on the teacher's side.

Re:Am I the only one surprised...

[Aaron_Pike]

There are a number of monitoring programs that track processes. Some allow the admin to include a banned list that will alert a monitoring teacher to an unauthorized process, usually using its process name (e.g. "firefox.exe"). There are school districts that do not allow Firefox because they're using a Web proxy for censoring^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H filtering and figuring out how to lock a proxy in Firefox is "hard."

Re:Am I the only one surprised...

[JonWan]

that the teacher even noticed the difference? Really, the displays of firefox and ie are fairly similar, and if you aren't looking at the very top or very bottom of the window, a layperson might not notice the difference at all

Maybe it didn't have the standard "Performed an Illegal Operation" error message. Thats quite easy to see.

Re:Am I the only one surprised...

[bot24]

If you are catching students bypassing the Windows firewall and bypassing the school's content filter *and* installing software that affects other users of the computer, then there is something wrong with your system.

The Windows XP firewall should stop Bittorrent clients, Limewire, AIM, etc. The school content filter should block anything that gets around the Windows firewall, Windows Messenger, porn, etc.

I don't care what students install on the PCs as long as it doesn't take up too much space. If you're running Windows NT and have user accounts set up properly then users should not be able to negatively impact each other. If the teacher lets them play Quake in class it's not my job to stop them.

You should realize that it's impossible to block everything you want to block without whitelisting only what you want; there is always another proxy out there and students can run their own proxies off their home computers. You should also realize that at some point if you add too many restrictions the system becomes unusable and unmaintainable.

Many possibilities here for detention

[acrobg]

The teacher could be an idiot for assigning detention over using the "wrong" browser in their eyes. But there are a few things that need to be clarified first: (1) what was the other browser option? It is fairly safe to assume it is IE6. (2) was firefox installed on the machine already? Many k-12 schools ahve specific access policies which forbid downloading and running of software on the machines. If Firefox was already installed on the machine, then (3) Why weren't the teachers aware of the programs available on the machiens to the students, and which ones were okay to use? An in any case, the school's surf-watch system is going to be equally effective in either browser. Unless, of course, the kid disabled it in the registry, downloaded firefox, and installed it. Oh well, whatever. Just goes to show how little people know these days.

Disobedience

[Toonol]

The detention was for arguing with the teacher, I'm sure. We all know the school would be better off running Firefox as a matter of course; it would at the least be more secure. But the teacher should be able to, for instance, say "Stop using Word. I want this done in notepad."

It would be stupid, but the teacher can set the parameters of how the kids perform the work.

If the kid wants to promote Firefox, good for him. I'm sure he's sharper than the teacher. But the proper way is to write something up that lists the cost/security benefits and give it to somebody official, not just install and run the software.

(I'm assuming this was the school's machine, not his own computer.)

Re:Disobedience

[Scudsucker]

Sure sure. But cracking the whip instead of picking your battles just encourages more disobedience and rebellion, and on issues more serious than running an alternative web browser.

How about the possibility..

[Smordnys s'regrepsA]

I wonder if the teacher actually knew what the program was, but wasn't sure if the school's monitoring software would work with it.

If not, I'm sure the teacher could get in trouble for not making the kid use IE.

Not saying its right, just saying its a possibility.

What's New

[fumanchu32]

Given the context in which this story is presented, the teacher is quite ignorant. Granted, there is probably a lot more going on than what is in the story. Even so, I was given detention for talking in Calculus one day. The problem... I was at home sick. Needless to say it was easy to get out of.

foxfire not firefox fix the typo of a typo please

[justdrew]

in the description...

What I hear:

[nahdude812]

This is what I hear when I read this:

Teacher doesn't know all things about all things, makes request for perfectly reasonable action from child under his/her supervision. Child refuses on the grounds that child knows better than the teacher what the teacher was asking the child to do. Teacher gives child detention for disobedience.

Look, it turns out that teachers are not omniscient. Whether or not the child was correct that he was adhering to the spirit of the request, he was not adhering to the letter of the request, and refusing to do so is still worthwhile grounds for punishment.

Notably lacking from the report is what the kid's attitude was. If the kid copped an attitude, then nothing else would really matter. Also lacking is whether the student installed unauthorized software on the school's hardware. It could be the teacher was cutting the kid a break for a more serious offense by only giving him detention for failure to comply with the request.

There's many unknowns here, and giving the benefit of the doubt, it still breaks down to a student refusing to comply with a reasonable request, and that should be grounds for punishment.

Re:What I hear:

[UtucXul]

Teacher doesn't know all things about all things, makes request for perfectly reasonable action from child under his/her supervision. Child refuses on the grounds that child knows better than the teacher what the teacher was asking the child to do. Teacher gives child detention for disobedience.

No one really expects (or at least I hope they don't) for a teacher to know everything. What people should expect is that the teacher should be at least somewhat aware of what they don't know (and occasionally even try to fix that). In this case, if computers are used in the classroom, it would seem reasonable to expect the teacher to know a little bit about them (at least at the level of what a web browser is). And if they see something they don't understand, they should maybe consider finding out what it is. That doesn't sound like I'm asking for an omniscient teacher. Just one who knows that they aren't omniscient.

I do of course admit that without the full story (which only the people there probably have) it is hard to say who had what attitude (the student could very well have been totally out of line in his response). But I am a bit surprised by how pro-authority so many of the comments on slashdot have become.

Re:What I hear:

[KtHM]

See, there's part of the problem with education today; teachers do not know everything, but they refuse to acknowledge that the students might know more. A good teacher would have tried to find out why the kid wanted to use something else, instead of saying "Disobedience! To detention with you!"

Re:What I hear:

[e4g4]

The teacher doesn't need to be omniscient in this day and age - if a teacher encounters something he or she does not know about - he or she can learn very quickly by using a bloody search engine. Now, I'll admit that there is very little information here, but I'm disinclined to let the teacher off the hook. If I were, for example, using a blue Pilot pen to do my homework, and my teacher insists that I use a blue Bic pen - isn't that an unreasonable request? This was clearly a situation where the student *did* know better than the teacher - and the failure of the teacher to recognize this is certainly a quite troubling indication of the state of public schools. This was a situation where the teacher could have actually learned something, that he or she could then pass on to other students. "Hey kids, there's more to this internet thing than a blue 'e'." Clearly, however, the teacher instead saw only disobedience, and likely learned nothing.

Re:What I hear:

[jockm]

Right, but the teacher should just drop everything to find out. She didn't know, taking a student's word for it can be dangerous, so she acted appropriately for that moment. The question is after this incident if she researched what Firefox is. But right there in the heat of the moment I don't fault her one bit.

Re:What I hear:

[Scudsucker]

iThe appropriate response for the time was to take five seconds to Google Firefox.exe and find out if he was telling the truth, especially considering the 12 day gap between the date of the incident and the date of the detention.

Re:What I hear:

[misanthrope101]

I know that kids exude attitudes. I have 2 teenagers. I get attitude. But dammit I went to high school, and I well remember seeing teachers (one or two in particular) needle the "attitudinal" kids into saying something, and then punishing them, perpetuating the whole "see--they're a troublemaker!" thing. No, it wasn't me--I know when to shut up, and I'm good at the whole irony thing. But even when it happened to kids I didn't like, I still knew the teacher was abusing their position and getting off on in.

Re:What I hear:

[Slashdot Parent]

Teacher doesn't know all things about all things, makes request for perfectly reasonable action from child under his/her supervision. That's precisely this "teacher's" attitude toward the student. This "teacher" probably also wonders why she does not have the respect of the "children" (and I use air quotes on the word "children", because the student in question was 17 years old).

As a parent, I'll let you know that by middle school, that My Way or Detention attitude loses its sway but quick. For older students, respect is earned.

Perhaps the "Bus. Ed. Career Project Teacher" would have more luck in early-elementary education, where Respect Me Because I'm a Grown-Up And You're Not actually works.

Re:What I hear:

[nahdude812]

The student should have complied with the request, and if s/he felt strongly about this subject, come to the teacher after class and described the difference between browsers. Teachers DO know they are not omniscient, and are often willing to admit the error of their ways. But they can't stop and have a discussion every time a kid thinks they know more than the teacher when it's not relevant to the subject matter being taught.

My wife has as many as 55 kids in her classroom, and an aide to assist with discipline. She's happy to address on-topic questions and discussion, because the whole class can benefit from it. If it turns out that the question is specific enough to the kid (ie, the rest of the class won't benefit from it, such as if the rest of the class already has a good grasp on the topic), she'll ask the kid to come in during study hall to work through the details. She's got a responsibility to keep the class moving forward, and stopping to engage in off-topic dialog with individual students any time one of those students feels like having some means she would never get anything taught.

If they were in a class about using to learn the Internet, then it's topical, and I side with the student. If it's any other subject (even computer related), it's off topic, and the student needs to comply so that the teacher isn't spending time arguing with the student instead of teaching the 30-50 other kids in that room.

Re:What I hear:

[jedidiah]

It seems clear that some sort of assignment was being done
that required the use of A browser. Now this teacher objected to
the use of something other than A PARTICULAR browser. Now given
that webpages look more or less the same across browsers this
leads to the question: "Why did the teacher even bother?"

            The fact that this kid was running firefox should have been
very subtle. Most of what was on his screen should have been what
everyone else had on their screen. Only some border stuff should
have been different.

            It sounds like we've got someone here who is both incredibly
anal while also being ignorant about technology or just intolerant.

            This teacher is a real anal control freak. Although I suppose
that should not be a surprise to anyone.

Re:What I hear:

[nahdude812]

Teachers don't have time to argue with kids over every little thing that the kid feels like arguing about. If the kid felt strongly, he could have talked to the teacher after class. If the teacher asks you to use and provides a blue Bic pen, and you refuse and use a blue Pilot pen, and these two pens perform exactly the same function, you're still disobeying a reasonable request from the teacher. Just like teachers are not omniscient, students are not omniscient, and they don't necessarily know if there is a reason the teacher prefers one over the other. Interrupting class progress to have a debate about the merits of different brands of pen is inappropriate, no matter how really really sure the student is that he/she is right.

The teacher has a responsibility to keep class moving forward. Whether or not the different browsers serve the same purpose, stopping class to discuss it is not appropriate.

Re:What I hear:

[Tom]

Whether or not the child was correct that he was adhering to the spirit of the request, he was not adhering to the letter of the request, and refusing to do so is still worthwhile grounds for punishment. So what you're saying is that the letter is more important than the spirit?

I'm getting old. You know, back in my days, the letters were the attempt to capture the spirit of the law in writing. People (including lawyers) were well aware that such an attempt was limited, due to the limits if language and all, and that the letter of the law needs interpretation. Which is why laws are usually published with voluminous commentaries outlining what exactly was meant, and are through the years refined with even more commentaries as courts and law experts work out the details.

The other way around, I always thought, was the realm of the religious and irrational - taking "the word" and abiding by it, no matter what.

Re:What I hear:

[Anonymous Coward]

It's about respect to the teacher, but it's also about respect to the rest of the class. Interrupting class to discuss the merits of different browsers is inappropriate, and the teacher has a responsibility to keep things moving forward. Having a friendly sit-down chat each time a student interrupts things is what my communications teacher did in high school. Unfortunately there, communications meant "TV and Video Production" and not "having conversations," so we rarely got around to learning anything related to the intended subject matter. I wanted to learn this stuff, and so I had to come in during study halls and teach myself. Most students aren't going to do this, so stopping to have a 2-minute evaluation of the relative merits of each student's interruptions means nothing gets done, and even in my case it meant that time I could have spent learning this subject matter was spent not learning it.

Re:What I hear:

[The One and Only]

Never before have I read a more stunning apology for ignorance among teachers of the subject they are supposed to teach. Bravo.

Re:What I hear:

[nahdude812]

No, I'm saying both are important. It's silly to violate the spirit of a law in favor of the letter of the law. And it's silly to violate the letter of the law in favor of what you perceive to be the spirit of the law (thing about spirit is not everyone agrees) unless the letter breaks the spirit (and even still you may end up paying the consequence).

Fortunately this discussion is only tangential to the case at hand since there was an easy way that the student could have satisfied both the letter and the spirit of the law, by simply abiding by a normal and reasonable request from the teacher. The teacher should not take time to debate every request because this detracts from the rest of the class's ability to learn, and especially because 99%+ of the time the outcome will be in favor of the teacher's original request.

Re:What I hear:

[nahdude812]

The subject was web browsers? Or at least the Internet? Because if so, then I agree with you. But if it was any other subject (including other computer related courses), then it was off topic to the subject at hand, and instead of disagreeing with and disobeying the teacher in class, the student should have done as requested and approached the teacher after class when he wasn't holding everyone else up from learning what they were supposed to be learning.

Re:What I hear:

[The One and Only]

If you're going to assign students to do web research, evidently you're supposed to be teaching them to use web research, and thus the internet is at the very least a background or prerequisite topic that the teacher should be conversant in.

Re:What I hear:

[nahdude812]

FWIW, in case you didn't notice, this thing was a hoax. But even still, if it's a social studies class, the teacher should only have to know enough to be functional. They should not be expected to be an expert on all things technology when that is not the subject they teach. What if the kid had been using Opera? What if the kid had been using iCab? How about NXS Mosaic? How about some spyware/adware laden browser shell?

I'll agree that it would be nice if all teachers knew all things about the Internet, and I think it would be valuable to have teachers taught these matters so they are at least reasonably conversant on the subject, but requiring this stuff loses focus on the purpose of education. The social studies teacher isn't there to teach Internet surfing, they are there to teach social studies.

Insert car alalogy: I think it's ridiculous to require a teacher to understand the difference between different types of school bus before taking his/her kids on a field trip. "Everybody get on the bus." "No, I'm going to take that bus instead because it's got better gas mileage." The district provided a tool, and the teacher, deferring to the expertise of the experts the district hires for this purpose (whether or not you agree with the decision of those experts), expects kids to use that tool and not one they brought from home.

The student was provided with a perfectly adequate tool to do the job, there is NO REASON that he could not use the requested browser, and refusing to do so was lipping off to the teacher, and preventing the class from moving forward. That's the core issue, not whether the teacher should or shouldn't have known the difference between two identical (from the teacher's perspective) browsers.

The only way that there would be an issue in the kid's favor is if for some reason IE wasn't able to do something that was part of the assignment. In which case the student should raise his hand, explain that, and request permission to use something different. That wasn't the case, even in the version the student made up for this hoax, and even in the student's made up scenario, I still side with the teacher. Furthermore, the fact that the student's made up scenario still breaks apart at refusing to comply with reasonable requests shows what this student really thinks of his teachers, that he knows better and his opinion ought to be followed when it disagrees with the teacher's.

Re:What I hear:

[The One and Only]

FWIW, in case you didn't notice, this thing was a hoax.

Sure, but it makes a good conversation topic anyway--surely it's something that obviously could happen in our school system, and either way the value is in the discussion.

They should not be expected to be an expert on all things technology when that is not the subject they teach. What if the kid had been using Opera? What if the kid had been using iCab? How about NXS Mosaic? How about some spyware/adware laden browser shell?

The teacher should have noticed that the software in question was, in fact, displaying web pages and that the program was, in fact, a web browser.

The student was provided with a perfectly adequate tool to do the job, there is NO REASON that he could not use the requested browser, and refusing to do so was lipping off to the teacher, and preventing the class from moving forward.

There's no reason he should be prevented from using Firefox. If I'm in a math class and I want to use my HP calculator instead of the TI's they hand out, the teacher shouldn't respond by saying "that's not a calculator, it must be a gameboy or a hacking device, stop using it or you will go to detention." Responding that way only illustrates his ignorance. And we aren't dealing with anything as exotic as postfix notation here, just a different web browser that works fundamentally the same way.

Re:What I hear:

[nahdude812]

At this point I don't have much else to say but that I respectfully disagree. If I was the teacher, and the student was using software that I didn't recognize, I'd at least require him to stop using it until I could educate myself more about that software, even if superficially it seemed to be doing the same thing. Software is not calculators. Unknown software has the potential to expose the student or school to a world of bad things. Most calculators aren't going to have a shot at doing this.

In the (now hypothetical) writeup, it sounded as if the teacher has monitoring software that lets him see what the students are running. If he didn't know what Firefox.exe was, then he didn't know it from some IM software, video game, or cracking tool. In his lack of knowledge on this subject, he should play it safe and request that the student return to the software he does know and has approved. Imagine the stink if he was told "MiRC is just a different web browser," and showed the IE screen claiming that it was the MiRC program, when the student was actually chatting with some perv, and making plans to meet after school. Everyone would absolutely jump on him and demand blood because he should have known better or failing knowing better, not taken the word of the student.

I firmly believe schools need more discipline, not less. Students refusing to abide by a reasonable request from the teacher should get detention. If they say, "Stop using HP calculators and use this TI calculator instead," and provide that calculator to the student, then that is what the student should do. The student doesn't know, there may be reasons to use one instead of the other. Maybe the TI does a better job showing you how the calculations work. Maybe the HP one comes with cheat sheets in the calculator, divulging formulas that the student is supposed to have memorized. Maybe the HP one has the subject matter built in as a native function, and the student can get the answer without understanding anything about how it works. The point is the student doesn't know, and the teacher has covered this subject matter more times (hopefully!) than the student has taken the subject matter, so when it comes to a conflict of intention, the outcome should favor the teacher, barring the sort of lengthy discussion which is not appropriate during class while holding up the rest of the students. Again, if the student firmly believes he is right, he can have a discussion with the teacher when he isn't impacting the other students, and if the teacher has reasons for his stand, then he may now have time to make them evident to the student.

I guess I did have more to say =)

Re:What I hear:

[The One and Only]

Again the apology for ignorance. A teacher who assigns work that requires internet research should be able to know what's what, just as a teacher who assigns work that requires calculators should be able to tell a calculator from a gameboy.

I firmly believe schools need more discipline, not less. Students refusing to abide by a reasonable request from the teacher should get detention.

(1) Using IE instead of Firefox isn't a reasonable request. It's a request borne out of ignorance. (2) Discipline is a virtue--it's not the same thing as arbitrary authoritarianism. The "obey the rules blindly even when they're ad hoc requests from someone completely ignorant of the matter at hand" form of discipline is unfitting a free people.

Re:What I hear:

[nahdude812]

I don't feel I'm apologizing for ignorance any more than I'm apologizing for lack of omniscience. I don't expect teachers to be conversant experts on the technology they use to facilitate their teaching. I expect them to be sufficiently knowledgeable to be able to effectively leverage that technology in the classroom. Anything else is a bonus. They are not teaching web browsers, they are teaching some other subject. Discussions about web browsers are out of place in that circumstance, and the teacher has a duty and obligation to avoid being distracted into such side conversations. The teacher does NOT need to know the difference between Firefox and IE to be able to use IE to teach the class. And they correctly should be permitted to require students to use the requested tool, even when the student is really sure a different one is better. Discussion otherwise is out of place in a class where that is not the subject matter.

As I said, I don't expect a social studies teacher to know the ramifications of a diesel, gasoline, or propane powered bus (they have those here) before they take the class on a field trip. Likewise I don't expect them to know the difference between IE and Firefox. It's a tool. IE does the job just as well as Firefox for the purpose of teaching, and the student arguing otherwise is being difficult and hindering the entire class. I don't think a teacher should have to know all things about all computers before using one as a tool.

As I said several times, when the student believes otherwise, he can approach the teacher out of class and have a discussion of the relative merits of each, so it's not even like there is not an appropriate escalation procedure for the student. The kid, even in this made up scenario, just felt like being difficult or demonstrating how he knows more than the teacher, and it's not respectful and it's not fair to the other students to detract from their learning what they are supposed to be learning to have the debate.

Re:What I hear:

[The One and Only]

As I said, I don't expect a social studies teacher to know the ramifications of a diesel, gasoline, or propane powered bus (they have those here) before they take the class on a field trip.

No, but they should know that both gasoline and diesel exist, just as this teacher should have been able to either know that Firefox was a web browser, or to tell that it was when shown.

Re:What I hear:

[nahdude812]

Well, we're clearly arguing circles, so I guess this will be my last one. Unless they are teaching auto mechanics or environmental science, or some other discipline which different types of engine would be material for, they don't need to know the different types of engine to teach. Sure it's nice if they do, but it has nothing to do with their ability to convey the subject matter. Not knowing about Firefox does not hamper their ability to teach with Internet Explorer. It's not their job to know this, and it doesn't hurt their ability to do their job if they don't. It would be nice if they did, but they don't have to.

As long as the type of browser is immaterial to the subject matter, then it's not a debate worth having in class, and it's not something the teacher should necessarily be expected to know.

You guys are all wrong

[MSDos-486]

He was using a rouge program, while I use Firefox, I have never hered of a program called "foxfire.exe" (sic). Obviously this student should be punished for promoting animal cruelty as well.

Re:You guys are all wrong

[PyroPenguin]

I understand you are mocking the letter and what the teacher wrote, but there is an application called foxfire. http://www.micromegasystems.com/foxfire/foxfire.htm

I am amused that people automatically assume that the 16 or 17 year old was being "Wronged By The Man". If this was "close excel.exe and use scalc.exe"...the dorks in this page would be singing the praise and brilliance of said educator. But since this person has to gall to inadvertently diss FireFox...Death to the Infidel! Tar and feather the fascist clod!

And yes, teachers have and will dictate what you can use in the classroom...

• Everybody have their #2 pencil ready?
• Did you ever lose points for using a pen in math or a pencil in English Composition class?
• Not having sneakers or shorts for gym?

Re:You guys are all wrong

[rts008]

WTF??
"...rouge program," Is that some kind of red colored program, or does it apply makeup to your virtual doll?
I've never "hered" of this rouge program you speak of, but I don't play with dolls either.

Animal cruelty? What kind of idiot are you to confuse bioluminescent fungus with animal cruelty.

Foxfire is a well known naturally occurring result of glowing fungus. Hell, I played with it as a kid. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxfire_(bioluminescence)

Obviously you should be punished for promoting ignorance as well as knee-jerk stupidity. Oh yeah, if you DO use Firefox, you might want to enable the spell checker...you obviously need it!

It would be one thing if it was a better browser,

[crossb0nez]

... but its not. gg making school network vulnerable!

.exe

[yotto]

Considering the teacher reported it as ".exe" that leads me to believe there was some sort of process monitoring going on, and the teacher saw that this one computer, presumably in a lab (else how could they monitor a personal laptop) which leads me to believe that the student DID install Firefox on school property and therefore broke the rules and should be punished.

Any chance that I would be outraged by this, which was quite low to begin with, has faded.

Re:.exe

[jav1231]

It's more likely that "firefox.exe" is on a disallow key in the registry. To avoid this, the student probably changed the executable to foxfire.exe which allows it to run.

Re:.exe

[corsec67]

Which is why you never enumerate the bad things, and instead enumerate the good things that are allowed. Otherwise you can't secure anything.

Re:.exe

[gEvil (beta)]

Exactly what I thought when I saw that the teacher was noting the program by its full executable name.

Re:.exe

[residieu]

rename firefox.exe to iexplore.exe. You're good to go. Using filenames to allow/disallow processes is just a bad idea.

Re:.exe

[fred fleenblat]

i dunno, if the kid just went to firefox.com and clicked on the button and the school laptop just let him install a program right off the internet, the lab is probably overrun with viruses and spyware already.

the teacher who runs the lab is probably frustrated by his own incompetence and taking it out on the kid. not cool.

Re:.exe

[joost]

broke the rules and should be punished.

I see this response all the time in this thread and it is very, very dangerous. What happened to common sense? What happened to rewarding the excellent students? What happened to independent thought?

Try to remember that all innovation in a society comes ... from innovators. People who think outside the box, people who DON'T do what others do, people who swim left when the school swims right.

Punishing them is a big, big mistake and has immensely negative effects on society. You are creating an army of mindless drones, bored to death, frustrated as hell and pissed off with themselves. It cannot have a positive effect.

Re:.exe

[0100010001010011]

PortableFirefox? I believe it still launches firefox.exe I'd resort to that in college rather than having every setting different (granted I kept it on a shared drive).

Re:.exe

[corsec67]

Unless you use the fully qualified filename: C:\windows\iexplore.exe, and then don't allow the students to write to C:\windows.

Agreed, using just the filename itself in a allow/disalow list is a bad idea.

School More Educational Than Originally Thought

[Anonymous Coward]

So, what is the take-away lesson?

1. You probably know more than the authorities do.
2. The authorities don't like it when you challenge them.
3. The authorities have the authority to do things to you that you don't like.
4. The world doesn't care that it isn't fair.

Sounds like an excellent, low-cost (1 detention) life lesson that will serve this kid well.

Re:School More Educational Than Originally Thought

[turgid]

The authorities don't like it when you challenge them.

Weak, ignorant teachers will do anything to save face in front of a class rather than admit that they don't know.

Sometimes enthusiasm on the student's part can easily be misinterpreted as arrogance or even misrepresented as intimidation by that teacher.

Re:School More Educational Than Originally Thought

[PortHaven]

Applied to the global scale...

Good reasons why we must always maintain our first and second ammendment rights.

Where is the IT people in this?

[Joe The Dragon]

This maybe just about useing software with out asking IT before hand.

Did IT install Firefox on the systems?

Did anyone form IT even take a look at the system?

Did IT say to give the Student Detention or is just that IT put Firefox on the systems and the teacher is not used to it and the teacher thinks you can't do the work on it?

Is the class work coming from a old work book that only talks about IE and may even show the old IE 6 GUI?

It's sounds the teacher does not know that much about computer systems and is used to useing IE for the web and the teacher may even be the some one who may even think the same way about IE 7 if see is used to IE 6.

Re:Where is the IT people in this?

[arose]

This maybe just about useing software with out asking IT before hand.

If it was, wouldn't the teacher just say so?

Firefox could be career ending

[catherder_finleyd]

The kid is lucky he is only getting detention. If he were to use unauthorized software in many workplaces, he could lose his job and very possibly end his career!

Rouge?

[nyet]

Would mascara.exe have been better?

Doubtful

[eebra82]

I find it hard to believe that the teacher punished the kid for using Firefox. He/she probably installed the application without authorization to do so. Not knowing what Firefox is, is hardly an oddity. After all, if every single being knew that there's a browser other than IE, far more would be using FF (or Opera for that matter).

What's the Problem?

[Smordnys s'regrepsA]

No, I've decided I'm not going to get on the school bus to go to the field trip. I met this awesome guy in the bathroom of the mall and I'm going with him in his car instead

...but, some of my best field trips started like that!

it's fake

[rhendershot]

look at the complainantt name: P BCalmear

Please B Calmer

come on!

Nothing to see here, move along

[DrNASA]

The kid was told to do something and back-talked. Was he right? Technically yes. But sorry dude - you are about to hit the real world. Someone in authority tells you to do something - you do it. Then, after class, you go the teacher and say - "may I show you what I was using and why?" Have a discussion, demonstrate that you weren't being disrespectful or devious and you won't have a problem.

I, for one...

[pebs]

Would rather be sent to detention than use Internet Explorer. The teacher should be fired for making such a requirement.

Re:I, for one...

[jedidiah]

"I would rather be sent to detention than use Internet Explorer."

We need to put that on t-shirts and bumper stickers.

Obvious Answer

[sexconker]

It was an online quiz / assignment, requiring the reading of material and the answering of questions.
Student used FireFox because it has tabs, and he could CTRL+TAB, CTRL+F to find the answers without reading the questions.
(The school is still running IE 6)

Re:Here's his teacher

[Boap]

The offending teacher is P. Bealmear and she is a Bus. Ed. Career Project Teacher http://www.bigspring.k12.pa.us/staff_directory.php?action=view_profile&person_id=1116&PHPSESSID=9f78f61e5bdb80de29e2dfd3f9b1b55a

Reality Check People!

[spiedrazer]

As others have stated, the detention was probably for not listening/being disrespectful as opposed to the specific browser choice. Most Schools have standards of what browsers they support, so if the school has standardized on IE, and that is what the teacher was familiar with, he/she had every right to ask the student to use the supported platform. It's not the teachers job to be hip to all the alternative browsers. He/She just saw the studnet using an unsupported application and asked them to stop. The student argued about it and got a detention. I hate Microsoft, but it's not all a huge conspiracy every time people!

CORRECTION

[whtmarker]

According to the document provided, the teacher called it 'Foxfire.exe'

He had 2 warnings

[davidwr]

If you read the letter, he had two warnings. This looks like a case of disrespecting authority more than anything else.

Part of a teacher's unwritten job description is to teach students how to behave when their supervisor gives them a seemingly- or actually-idiotic order:

Unless it's something you are willing to get into trouble over or it violates company policy or the law, you obey the request and ask questions later.

I'm not saying this is a good thing only that's the way it is.

The teacher's actually-idiotic order not to use Foxfire.exe without explaining why is not serious enough to get into trouble over. The student owes the teacher an apology for being disrespectful. The principal owes the teacher an apology for not giving her adequate IT training.

The principal can start by forming a committee of students to train the teachers :).

Re:He had 2 warnings

[AJWM]

The student owes the teacher an apology for being disrespectful

No he doesn't. The teacher clearly demonstrated that - in that domain at least - they were not worthy of respect. The teacher owes the student an apology for being an ignorant martinet.

The principal owes the teacher an apology for not giving her adequate IT training.

Nonsense. The teacher owes the principal an apology for bringing shame upon the whole school, and failing to keep up to date with technologies likely to be used in the classroom. If she's giving assignments that rely on a browser, it's her duty to know at least something about browsers.

Unless it's something you are willing to get into trouble over or it violates company policy or the law, you obey the request and ask questions later.

Clearly, this is something the kid was willing to get into trouble over. Good for him. (NB I'm not generally lauding getting into trouble -- too many kids get there for the wrong reasons. This case isn't one of those.)

No good deed goes unpunished.

[Spy der Mann]

Better summary: "Student Given Detention for being better informed than the teacher".

IMO, the student should frame that paper and hang it on his wall. We need more people like him. And seriously, what kind of school education system allows teachers to be outsmarted by their students? Oh, right, the teachers are only doing their job, instead of actually LEARNING SOMETHING to teach their students!

Worse - the reward for challenging the system and trying to improve it is detention. Go figure.

If you put it that way...

[lobStar]

...then you should check this!

Forget right and wrong...

[jesdynf]

Focus on what was accomplished.

The student's contempt for his teacher (and the process that employs this teacher) is now validated.

How useful.

Does this mean I'm finally a Grammar-Nazi?

[Smordnys s'regrepsA]

Maybe the editor, like the teacher, is dyslexic? It would explain a lot...

Either way, it should be "FoxFire [sic]"

where are the IT contacts?

[Joe The Dragon]

where are the IT contacts?

they are the people that you should be talking to.

$2 bill

[suitti]

Much like the guy who attempted to buy a burger at a fast food place using $2 bills. The cashier had never seen one and thought they were bogus. The manager too.

Different from the guy who wanted to change for a whole stack of $6 bills, and was given $3's.

Just more Slashdot sensationalism

[davmoo]

Another day, another non-story.

This is no different than a company telling an employee what software to use on the company's time and company's equipment, and then the employee gets punished for disobeying. If the kid wanted to use something else, he should have done it on his own time and his own computer. "Freedom" doesn't have a damned thing to do with it. There is no story, the teacher is not even the least bit ignorant, stupid, or in the wrong, and I have absolutely zero sympathy for the kid.

And the Slashdot editor(s) responsible for the posting of this sensationalized non-story should also get detention.

Re:Just more Slashdot sensationalism

[Dusty00]

This, while not news, is different. You have a choice in weather or not to work for a company, you don't have a choice to go to school. A student willing to disobey when he thinks he's both right and smarter than the teacher is likely going to come out of school suited for more than a mindless factory job.

Re:Just more Slashdot sensationalism

[Igarden2]

I wish you were a teacher for a few days. You would probably view this in a different light.

Might be a good reason for it

[SailorSpork]

Where I work, our company uses something called "Webwasher" to filter for work-related (no pr0n) content and to scan everything coming in for viruses. The catch is, it only works when you use IE; using Firefox or any other browser bypasses it. The assumption here (and the tagging) seems to be that the teacher was an idiot, but they might be in a similar situation where using a browser other than IE might circumvent their content blocker/proxy/virus scanner/whatever and would be against school rules.

It could have been worse.

[domatic]

Portable Firefox configured to use Tor or a rotating selection of open proxies has and probably is popular among HS students. I'm not saying this kid did that but if I were admin on that network, I'd be extremely interested in anyone installing software that wasn't provided in the first place. The superiority of FireFox over IE has very little to do with this and more to do with the kid using a school computer as his personal playground.

Yes, everyone call!

[Megaweapon]

Let's bog down a school with a flood of phone calls from people who have no business calling the school other than to complain about some kid getting a detention for disobedience despite a poorly worded article summary on a geek news site! /sarcasm

Maybe the teacher is right

[slapout]

Maybe the assignment requires some quirk in IE (like strange CSS rendering) to work. :-)

You could use a liitle perspective!

[spiedrazer]

You are reading way too much into this!. The school probably has a standard for browser software. The teacher expects to see that application as they wander the room to see if their students are on task. The teacher saw the student using a different application and asked them to get back to their assignment (it's not the teachers job to be hip to all the alternative browsers no matter how much of a dolt you may think he/she is!). The kid argued about it instead of just switching to (I assume) IE, and got a detention for it. There is no great conspiracy here... move along... get a life...

Vegetables before meat?

[Crane Style]

How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat!?

Re:Vegetables before meat?

[jedidiah]

If I promise never to be prime minister, then can I eat my pudding first?

UPDATE! Cory Doctorow just reported...

[Spy der Mann]

From boing boing's blog entry:

I just spoke to the principal of the high-school -- nice enough fellow. According to him:
* The kid altered the document after scanning it
* The kid was punished for mouthing off to the teacher, not for using Firefox
* The kid had been asked to work in Word on a resume (the assignment) and kept looking at the Web instead (and this was a recurring problem)
* The kid has admitted this and will be posting a followup/correction/retraction today

It appears that the student wasn't JUST using "a better browser". He was browsing OTHER STUFF on the web. Too bad.

Re:UPDATE! Cory Doctorow just reported...

[digital photo]

Fact checking seems to be out of fashion these days. Thank goodness there are still some who feel that vetting sources and cross referencing story details is more important than sensationalism.

Re:UPDATE! Cory Doctorow just reported...

[snarfies]

...unless, of course, this is just damage control on the school's part, and they are now trying to make this kid lie to the public or face additional retribution for making his teacher look like a twit. I'm certain that MY school district would have done that, no reason why this one shouldn't.

Re:UPDATE! Cory Doctorow just reported...

[rob1980]

... which would then make it the administration's word against the kid's, and everybody knows Little Billy would never do anything to get into trouble.

Think I'll pass on this issue and save the outrage for stuff that is actually important.

Re:UPDATE! Cory Doctorow just reported...

[azenpunk]

boy am i glad i treated the original story as 'hypothetical' in my previous post. the kid was an ass. sounds like something i would have done, keeping word open and available to be sure.

Re:Here's his teacher

[Macthorpe]

Anybody with half a brain will tell you that discipline is critical for kids when they're growing up, and here you are telling people to harrass a teacher who dared to punish a disobedient student.

Absolutely pathetic.

Kids lie

[Joebert]

Kids lie. Not all of them, but enough that the teachers have to assume innovation is an attempt at an excuse.

The solution, kick the shit out of your kids when they lie.

Re:Kids lie

[DrNASA]

Correction:
"Everybody lies"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_(TV_series)

US Bases in Europe ban firefox, mozzie 2 the rescu

[caseih]

American forces bases all across Europe ban firefox too in their base libraries and schools. Mainly because it won't listen to the locked-down windows settings for proxies and stuff. Additionally, firefox, with a plugin, ties directly into the Tor network, so it's deemed a security risk.

So for situations where stupid policies reign, maybe this interesting little project would be of help: the mozzie plugin for IE. This plugin embeds the gecko rendering engine into IE. http://mozzie.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Main_Page . In theory this should give one standards-compliant rendering, and the security of the gecko engine, within the framework of IE. Of course, depending on how it plugs into IE it won't protect you from IE url exploits.

That is actually worse

[Per Abrahamsen]

Giving detention for using unauthorized software for school work actually makes some sense, and not knowing FireFox is a lot less outrageous in the real world it would appear to the users of a nerd forum.

However it seemed to me that the kid was trying to rationally justify his decision, and the reason (as you indicate) that the detention was given as a punishment for questioning authority. That is a much more serious problem, especially if you believe one of the goals of primary school is to teach the pupils how to function in a democratic society.

Re:That is actually worse

[Virgil Tibbs]

one of the goals of primary school is to teach the pupils how to function in a democratic society. In the USA that would be....
Don't Tase me Bro!

Or what?

Lab rule #6

[mishelley]

Do not download or install anything without prior authorization.

I manage a computer lab at a middle school so it I'm fairly confident in saying that I'm sure the innocent little sweetheart was just trying to help.....
Teacher gets a lowered grade for lack of fundamental skills....

Reason for detention

[teslar]

While Firefox is indeed a great browser, it is a largely irrelevant part of this sage -- kid runs unauthorized application, is told not to, disobeys instructions and talks back.

I agree. The TFA does indeed tell us that the detention was due to the disobedience and nothing else:

Today in class, had a program launched called Foxfire.exe. I had told to close the program and to resume work but he told me that it was just a different browser and that he was doing his work. I had given him two warnings but he insisted that it was just a "better" browser and that he wasn't doing anything wrong. I had then issued his detention.

Incidentally, isn't it scary that a teacher appears to have no clue on how to use the past tenses of the English language?

Re:Reason for detention

[teslar]

Err, yeah, using HTML tags to indicate where the name of the student has been censored is a really smart idea.... so the first line of the quote should read: "Today in class, CENSORED had a program launched [...]. I had told CENSORED to close the program [...]"

This actually happened to me...

[icebrain]

Many, many years ago. Though it was the other way around. And, my case turned out happier.

So there I was, Fall 2001, my senior year in high school. As one of my classes, my friends and I were the tech support for the entire school, and we had administrator priviliges on everything but the county network and the gradebooks. We reformatted computers, did network stuff, set up teacher accounts, and so on. We also got away with playing Rainbow Six over the network.

At the time of my incident, the school's computers were all running an old version of Netscape, which hadn't been updated in some time. I believe most of the computers had IE 5, which even though it was IE, was far superior to the Netscape version the school was running.

Anyways, I was in one of the English department's writing labs, working on an assignment using IE instead of the school-sanctioned Netscape. The lab administrator flipped out, wrote me up, unplugged the computer, and sent me to see the assistant principal. (Now, this woman running the labs was a complete idiot... if anything out of the ordinary happened, even "please insert disk into drive a," she'd flip out and unplug the computer, then put in a work request... by the time we got there, she'd tried to turn it back on, and wondered why it wouldn't start up...) And to make it even better, I had just been in that morning reformatting one of her computers. Go figure.

So I get to the principal's office, and explain what was going on. She laughed, explained that the school was basically getting some kind of kickback to use Netscape, and told me not to worry about it. She later had words with the lab administrator.

Re:authority figure is a moron

[MBCook]

The kid wasn't ordered to shoot himself in the foot. He was told not to use an un-approved program.

Cut the hyperbole. Your example doesn't apply.

He wasn't being told to do something illegal. He wasn't be told to do something that could cause physical harm to someone. The teacher was in charge, and if he wouldn't stop he deserved what he got. The correct thing to do would be to stop and then talk to someone more powerful (like the principal) about getting that policy changed.

Commenter doesn't read article.

[munch117]

Is modded up. Boring.

The kid was given detention not for using an unauthorized program, but for not doing the assigned task. Apparently the kid was goofing off with some sort of computer game called "foxfire.exe", when he should have been using a web browser instead.

The colour of the browser

[whitehatlurker]

I always thought that Opera was the "rouge" browser, Firefox was "orange" and IE was "bleu". I'm not sure which would be "vert" - K-Meleon, perhaps?

The issue here is the teacher is a moron

[DethKing]

This is something I would have gotten in trouble for in high school as well. The way I read the document is that the student received the detention for disobeying the teacher for not doing his classwork. However, as we all know, he was doing his classwork using Firefox. Now, without knowing more details...the teacher was in the wrong here. He saw a process that he was unfamiliar with (Let's assume the student did not install it on the local PC, but was running from a usb drive one of the portable versions of the program) and made the idiot assumption of "student must not be doing his work and is playing a game." The correct course of action should have been to take a walk over to the student and see that he was in fact doing his schoolwork. The detention was then given because the teacher was embarrassed, and in classic form of many high school teachers (many, not all) a student is not allowed to know more than the teacher.

Re:The issue here is the teacher is a moron

[jeppster]

and in classic form of many high school teachers (many, not all) a student is not allowed to know more than the teacher. Interesting theory, but from the update in the comments above, the kid was being mouthy, and the teacher had every right and duty to punish the kid. It sounded like you just wanted to make this one statement and made up the story to fit it. All of the high school teachers I know would welcome intelligent kids. Unfortunately, it seems that all I ever hear from them is how lazy and mouthy kids are these days.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

shhhhhhhh!

[circletimessquare]

we all know that the any given webpage looks gray and moribund and depressing in ie, but in firefox the same webpage looks golden and sparkly and cheerful

"the displays of firefox and ie are fairly similar, and if you aren't looking at the very top or very bottom of the window, a layperson might not notice the difference at all"

sacrilege! how dare you!

Portable Firefox

[Mutio]

The kid may still be at fault for not obeying what the teacher requested, but he may have been running a portable version of firefox. There has been a portable version available since 1.x . Also the kid might have changed the .exe name to foxfire which would account for the concieved misspelling (used to do that all the time to play quake on network, just named it something harmless like iexplore.exe)

and that's why so many schools suck

[Scudsucker]

They place blind obedience over learning.

monitoring program detected Foxfire.exe ..

[rs232]

"Considering the teacher reported it as ".exe" that leads me to believe there was some sort of process monitoring going on"

There's process monitoring going on on a PC an 11th grader is using, I don't think so. The teacher also refered to the program as Foxfire.exe, not what an alleged monitoring program would report.

"Incident Description: Today in class AAA had a program launched called Foxfire.exe .." P. Bcalmear

So basically what we have here is a dumb teacher penalizing a pupil for not using INTERN~1 EXPLOR~1

Who modded this up Score:4 Insightful ..

Re:authority figure is a moron

[plague3106]

Debating idiocity lends some validity to said idiocity.

Re:authority figure is a moron

[ArcherB]

In the military, A commanding officer can order you to drop your pants and shoot yourself in the left testicle too but you have the right to disobey. Especially if the order is stupid, immoral, without merit or could get you into trouble. On always has the right to disobey when the authority figure is a moron.. such is the case here.

Blowing off a testicle would be considered an unlawful order. Only using the approved browser is quite allowed by the rules. What if the kid wanted to user Opera? How about if the kid wanted to use IE, but with that nifty share ware search toolbar he got for free when he installed Kazaa, which also has a browser of sorts. Where do we draw the line. Are you implying that the students should be allowed to install whatever they want, provided that they think it is better than what is on there?

Filters

[infaustus]

I received a similar detention a few years back for using Opera on a school computer, which happened to be pre-installed somehow. It was annoying, but hardly an outrage. The filtering software the school used (Bess) didn't work with Opera. Also, they didn't want people searching around the C drive (as I did) or installing new software on school computers.

Re:authority figure is a moron

[Gorobei]

Yes, but that doesn't have much to do with anything.

In the military, following unlawful orders is a no-no. You don't get to do it and offload your responsibility on the officer issuing the order. Stupid, but legal, orders must generally be obeyed: if ordered to take a hill with a stupid plan, you still have to try to do it, you just report that enemy fire makes the plan unworkable. I.e. you follow orders, but orders don't require suicide. At worst, the issue is sorted out later at a court martial.

School is a bit different - the Supremes have held students don't even get full 1st amendment rights while in school. The teachers are assumed to be the responsible decision makers, and students are not liable for acts they commit at the teachers' order.

Using a browser doesn't rise to the level of rights for students. The teacher doesn't want it, it doesn't happen. End of story.

Well, actually, the story continues, but the story is only that the teacher is an idiot.

No, not wrong.

[khasim]

This is an example of a teacher who may never have encountered FF before and so didn't recognize it as a suitable technology to be used in the assignment.

And when said teacher was informed by the student that it WAS "suitable technology", what did the mature, responsible teacher do?

His/Her actions certainly do NOT fit the criteria for "mature" or "responsible" (nor "teacher" unless you count this as the lesson).

The entire incident could have been a non-issue if the TEACH had acted like an ADULT instead of as an immature child with authority.

Deal with it.

Re:No, not wrong.

[Don Music]

I agree that the teacher was ultimately in the wrong here. What I disagree with is the blanket condemnation of the US school system that was not-so-subtly intimated in the post that I responded to. I think that it is an absurdly reactionary response to say that this teacher's actions are indicative of systematic failure and backwardness in an entire school system. Care to defend that point? And I still insist that neither you nor anyone else responding to this message knows the full circumstances.

Re:No, not wrong.

[Actually, I do RTFA]

And when said teacher was informed by the student that it WAS "suitable technology", what did the mature, responsible teacher do?

FireFox was not "suitable technology". It doesn't matter if FF is superior for reasons XYZ, the teacher is not comfortable with it, while the student surely knows how to use IE. It is not the teacher's job to know about every browser (I use Opera, for instance), and approve its use. The teacher knows how IE works well enough not to think that they were going to get tricked by a student.

School is not just about solving problems, but also showing the teacher how you solve problems (for instance, showing work in math). Sometimes it is the teacher's responsibility to become educated, such as if a student uses calculus in econ or physics and the high school teacher does not know it, because it shows a deeper understanding of the material and produces better results. However, peripheral issues are not like that. If a teacher is unable to comfortably audit a student's web research, then that teacher is able to help the student less effectively, and it would be the student's fault for making more work for a probably underpaid and overstressed teacher.

For example, I prefer base 60 (divisible by 1-6 evenly, way superior to base 10). But math teachers always insisted I use base 10, because then they could follow what was going on without learning 50 new symbols.

Re:No, not wrong.

[cHiphead]

Additionally, a lot of schools with little or no IT support will use the Content Advisor in IE to block sites, FF gets around that.

A smart kid a.) doesn't get caught and b.) just changes a registry key to kill the content advisor.

This whole thread is moot since apparently this/some other punk kid changed the detention letter to appear like it was for firefox. Then again, the Principal could be lying to try and save face.

Cheers.

Similar experience

[OneShirtChris]

I actually had something very similar happen to me while i was in high school. I was in a typing class doing my excel work and the program locked up on me (as it sometimes does) and being a somewhat tech savvy student at the time i knew this super elite way to kill hanging programs. I guess i'll give up the secret, you hold down Ctrl+Alt+Del and get what is call the Task Manager where you can then end the "hanging" process. My teacher was so clueless about computers that she freaked out thinking i was hacking it or something and told me to stop what i was doing. I tried to explain the situation to which she said to restart the entire machine. I tried to explain that this was not necessary upon which she gave me detention. If schools hire teachers for computer classes they should know something about computers and software. Idiots.

you're forgetting

[misanthrope101]

authority figures are always to be given the benefit of the doubt. The person questioning authority is always a slacker, smartass, arrogant punk. Even if the authority figure is going against facts and logic, they are still to be given the benefit of the doubt an obeyed anyway. If they're complete idiots, we're to just assume that, in the larger scheme of things, it was better to let them have their way. Trust me on this. The alternative is anarchy.

These comments explains a lot about Americans

[amorsen]

Apparently you people believe that the student is there for the benefit of the teacher.

the real issue is ..

[rs232]

"The issue here was he was told not to use it and refused to comply"

No the real issue here is a teacher penalizing a pupil for using Firefox ..

Who modded this up Insightful ..

was Re:so what? Score:4, Insightful)

Re:authority figure is a moron

[brouski]

One doesn't have the right to disobey without consequence, moron or not. That would sort of defeat the whole purpose of authority.

so let's see:

[Surt]

The teacher instructed him to cease using firefox and to do his classwork, and he refused the teacher's instruction. Sounds like grounds for discipline to me.

And at least on my computer, my Firefox link refers to firefox.exe.

My advice to student: learn how to negotiate with authority better. If you hadn't gone in-your-face, you likely wouldn't be in this situation.

That lucky teacher

[Deadstick]

...should be very grateful for the Hollywood writers' strike. Can you say Daily Show?

rj

tags Re:Student Given Detention For Disobedience

[damn_registrars]

Do the editors or the submitter start off the tags these days? This story came fresh with 4 tags...I thought it waited until "democracy" spoke. Wisdom of the masses et al.
I didn't watch this story really closely as it came off the pipe, but I can say that I have noticed we do have the ability to tag stories when they're still in the firehose. Perhaps this story was tagged there and then released, with tags attached, to the front page?

Just a thought...

No,the teacher was wrong(based on facts presented)

[PortHaven]

Okay why is everyone on Slashdot posting comments regarding installation of software, not using the proper software, etc.

None of the evidence we have states that to have been the issue. The issue at hand as stated by the detention slip is a failure of said student to be doing his work. Which has been stated as a task requiring a browser.

No evidence has as of yet been provided to any of these other claims. Only a failure of the student to do his work.

So let's assume that Firefox was already present on the machine. Let's also assume that the assignment merely stated that the work be done in a browser and no brand was specified. In which case, the only claim we are left was a failure on the part of the student to in fact be doing his work.

Which would then be an invalid claim, and the detention an unjust punishment.

***

What we have here is the typical situation of a teacher/professor who feels threatened by a lack of knowledge. A very common problem within the scope of the public school system (and education systems in general). Where teacher's egos feel threatened when a gifted youngster demonstrates a working knowledge beyond their own.

What a failure....that we even call such a system "education".

good for the teacher

[smithcl8]

I'm reading here a few things that are truly screwed up:

1. The student was clearly smarter than the teacher.
2. Good for that student for doing what's right.

But here's what I say:

1. Whose fault is this in the first place? I would argue that the students shouldn't have the right to download or install Firefox if the school's browser-of-choice is IE. Sounds to me like the IS person (who is probably just a teacher who fiddled with computers on the side and got stuck with it) really blew it there.
2. Since when did knowing about an alternative browser make you smart?
3. The teacher is just a user, too. There is nothing that says they must become IS folks to teach their Literature, History, or any other classes. If they did, a lot of us would be out of jobs. In most cases, the teacher just uses the tools provided, just like at every other company in the world. (On an aside, ever fixed a computer that an engineer has been using? Guaranteed to be trashed. And most people here consider engineers to be "smart".)

Of course, this is Slashdot, where using Firefox, Thunderbird, a Mac, or Ubuntu determines a person's intelligence. And using said products is always right, regardless of the situation. The way I see it, that little turd kid needed to be sent to detention. Was his choice of software better than what was provided? Maybe, but it's still wrong to make those changes to the school's computer system.

Re:good for the teacher

[yotto]

2. Since when did knowing about an alternative browser make you smart?

Knowledge of random facts is linked to intelligence all the time. It's the basis of the show Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader? and it pisses me off every time I see it (people linking knowledge of facts with intelligence. I wouldn't watch the show).

Re:authority figure is a moron

[MBCook]

The teacher needs instruction. Agreed. But that is the kind of thing to take up with the principal. That doesn't make it OK for the kid to disobey the teacher.

Nope, this is school policy in some places...

[Big Smirk]

My daughter, upon entering middle school in Montgomery County Maryland was forced to sign a computer usage agreement. It included among other things, a ban on 'other' browsers like Firefox _IN_SCHOOL_.

Only Microsoft's Internet Explorer (version not specified) is the approved, in-school browser. When I asked her computer science teacher about it. She agree 100% but said it was county policy and as much as she disapproves and recommends using a "good" browser, at school that was the policy.

Re:authority figure is a moron

[MBCook]

Both Fords and Audis are licensed to drive on the road, thus a police office can't do that. You're right that the teacher should be teaching the concept and not the tool. But in the middle of class is not the time for that point. You discuss that with the teacher or principal after class. You don't just sit there and do a metaphorical "screw you" by ignoring their rules.

There is nothing wrong with questioning authority. But that wasn't the time or place, and it wasn't an issue so dire that it couldn't wait (like if they said don't give CPR to someone who passed out, that would be something that couldn't wait).

Is a hoax?

[ChrisMounce]

So apparently some kid who got detention 'shopped the letter and posted it online as a hoax:

http://www.bigspring.k12.pa.us/news.php?action=view_article&article_id=2130

Detention is FAKE

[sykopomp]

...according to the school. They just did a press release. Apparently, whoever uploaded the picture altered it. http://www.bigspring.k12.pa.us/news.php?action=view_article&article_id=2130&PHPSESSID=cf4be39ed120b93f823997c95b3533a9

Re:Detention is FAKE

[KodaK]

I came in here to post that. Thanks for trying to be a voice of reason.

Detention Letter Press Release
December 17, 2007

Recently, a file was uploaded to the Internet purporting to be a copy of a letter from Big Spring High School to a student regarding a two hour detention. The uploaded letter was an altered version of a detention letter sent to a student. Unfortunately, privacy concerns prevent the School District from giving a full explanation of the nature and source of the letter's alteration at this time. The Big Spring School District does have confirmation that the discipline letter was altered.

The reports, blogs and other sources on the Internet indicating that a Big Spring student was assigned detention for using the Firefox internet browser instead of Internet Explorer are untrue and were based on the fake letter. Detention is assigned in our schools after appropriate warnings are given, if students continue to engage in non-academic activities or fail to follow a teacher's directive during class time discipline can and will be assigned.

Sincerely yours,

John C. Scudder

High School Principal

Re:Detention is FAKE

[PortHaven]

Well of course it's been altered. The names have been blocked out in Photoshop.

Note, they do not state what has been altered. And of course, the issue will always be one of 'discipline' and failure to heed a 'teacher's directive'. Because they always have that caveat to fall back on.

Whenever a student tries to correct a prideful teacher it will become and issue of 'teacher's directive' and then everyone tows the line. It shouldn't be...we destroy our best student's that way. Arrogant teachers scar kids for years to come.

Re:Detention is FAKE

[Achromatic1978]

Why would they state what's been altered - it ain't none of your business what the kid actually got detention for, and it's not their position to disclose that, that little thing called "privacy", you may recall.

Re:authority figure is a moron

[Cjstone]

Unfortunately, this line of thinking is all too common. Just try explaining to the average person over 38 that Internet Explorer is not the Internet, and that Outlook Express is not email. It's nearly impossible. Thank the Microsoft Monopoly for that.

i find myself sounding like a broken record

[superwiz]

But I am beginning to think that conservative might have it right on education, too. Would that student really be worse served if he were home schooled?

Re:authority figure is a moron

[davidsyes]

Lotta good that would do for people the USA in uniform being shipped around by a buffoon. One can lawfully disobey an order, but depending on the circumstances and spinelessness of witnesses, the CO or some ranking person can execute, imprison, or seek revenge upon the one disobeying, especially if unit cohesion is affected at a critical moment, or the officer is being embarrassed, or if the disobeying person sets an example that undermines those giving the orders.

"Don't argue with the teacher"

[damburger]

Pretending to be omniscient is bad teaching. The only point of giving such a detention is to try and instil in the child an aversion to questioning authority figures. Where is the educational value in that? Idiotic teachers who can't properly handle a teenager with an opinion play right into the stereotype of schools as place of indoctrination and intellectual repression.

I hope for his sake the kid has some teachers who can actually justify themselves to a child without reverting to "I'm an adult, listen to me or else"

Re:"Don't argue with the teacher"

[PortHaven]

Kind of reminds me of when in 1st grade I asked the teacher what happens if you subtract a larger number from a smaller number.

Here I was, in first grade ready to stumble upon the concept of negative numbers. Rather than encourage insightful self-learning, I was told:

"You just can't do that!"

Only to be shown a few years later when 'authorities' figured I was now old enough to understand the concept.

Is it any wonder American math scores are so low. I'd say they suck, but you'd have to double America's math scores before they even qualified as 'sucking'.

Re:"Don't argue with the teacher"

[808140]

Sure, but what exactly would you have had them tell you? You get a negative number? What exactly would that mean to you as a first grader? It would take quite some time to explain, and the teacher isn't just teaching you, he's teaching everyone. Assume for a second that you're unusually precocious and are able to grasp, at age 6, why additive closure in the ring of integers is important. The other 29 kids in the class didn't get it, and all they've taken away from the discussion is that you can subtract a bigger number from a smaller one, under circumstances they don't understand and that are utterly irrelevant to the context of the lesson. The result? The teacher, whose job is to make sure first graders understand how the mathematical concept of subtraction (which is abstract) is related to the real world action of "taking away", has failed in his goal. Score one for American math education!

I don't know if you're a parent, or if you have younger siblings or nieces/nephews around, but little kids ask why to everything, which is great (and in my opinion, you should do your best to satisfy their natural curiosity). But in the context of a classroom, where one teacher's attention is divided among 30 students or more, taking this approach is like herding cats. The opportunity cost of explaining something to the one or two sublimely gifted children is simply to high if it means that the rest of the class is penalized. You will learn about negative numbers, eventually — you obviously did. Why must it be when you are six and the rest of the class is still struggling with the basics? And be honest with yourself, would you have really understood negative numbers then? European mathematicians only started accepting their existence in the fifteenth century, and I would posit that many of them were much smarter than you were at age six (or now, for that matter — no offense).

As an exercise, try coming up with an intuitive, real world explanation of negative numbers that you could relate lucidly to a six year old. I doubt you can.

(And on a related note: if America's math scores suck, it most certainly is not because teachers are failing to teach abstract mathematics in first grade.)

Re:"Don't argue with the teacher"

[3247]

As an exercise, try coming up with an intuitive, real world explanation of negative numbers that you could relate lucidly to a six year old. I doubt you can.

With number lines, that should be easy enough. Probably, someone has already asked whar happens when you add 9 and 9. (The result is the same: a number the children don't know yet.)

c/

Re:"Don't argue with the teacher"

[808140]

Why would children at age six not know 18? Relating a number like 18 to the real world is manifestly trivial: here, there are 18 pencils in a box, let's count them.

As for the number line, why would that make any sense at all? The concept of positive infinity is hard enough to grasp already. I remember, as a kid, that Sesame Street used to run all these little skits and segments trying to help kids understand that there was "no biggest number". "Think of the biggest number you can think of," it would say. "A billion," the child would answer (or whatever). "Now add one more!" And so on... it was clearly not a simple thing. In fact, I would guess that many people simply accept the notion of infinity without truly deeply understanding what it actually means. A surprisingly large number of innumerate people actually think it is a number in and of itself.

So now you start making them think about negative infinity, when they don't even understand negative numbers... it just doesn't seem realistic. Why must the line extend to the left at all, they'll wonder, and you probably won't be able to give them a better answer than "it just does", which is exactly the sort of answer your teacher gave you.

The best real-world applications of negative numbers are in simple 1 dimensional physics -- moving forward, moving backward -- and to model the concept of debt. Both of these extremely simple use cases are an order of magnitude more complex than the "I have 5 marbles, Timmy takes 3 away, how many do I have left" scenarios the average child is using to understand subtraction at that age. Of the two, debt is probably easier to understand, but illustrating it requires at the very least a good understanding of money, borrowing, and bookkeeping. It's not something you teach a 6 year old, it's something you might teach an 11 or 12 year old (which, IIRC, is about the time negative numbers are first introduced conceptually).

I want you to know that I do not disagree with the central thesis here, which is that the American education system is screwed up, that it needs a swift kick in the butt, etc. But the reason it is screwed up is not so much because we're not taking on enough material, but rather because we fail to teach the material we ostensibly require. It's not because we're not learning about negative numbers at age 6 (no one anywhere does that) but rather because we're failing to even teach kids basic subtraction.

Re:And who claimed that it was?

[ArcherB]

You're right. The child should have been allowed to install whatever he wanted on his ... I mean, the school's computer. The teacher, acting as a representative of the school district has no right telling students what they can and can't do to school property. If this kid wanted to install the Adult-porn-finder search bar, that should have been allowed. If the student wanted to format the drive and leave it at a blinking "Press F1 to continue", that's his right. These student's should be allowed to jump around and fling shit all over their monitors if that is what they desire. Teacher's have no business running the classrooms! What was I thinking?!!? That's what the Nazi's did!

(is that better?)

the kid signed a contract

[ImTheDarkcyde]

Every school I've been to or heard of has required students (and parents) to sign acceptable use policies dictating what they can and cannot run on school computers. Running Firefox.exe is an obvious violation, so what if it is harmless, the rules is the rules.

From here my post is going to go downhill.

The kid was kind of an idiot bringing a web browser to school. Internet Explorer does all education related websites just fine, and I've never known encarta to install toolbars or trojans, nor wikipedia, google, or any site a kid should be at while IN SCHOOL. He was probably just trying to be a smartass, or misuse tax dollars spend on the schools computers and internet connection.

Also, I think its kind of funny that next to the article summary the foot is seen crushing the mozilla dinosaur, I think someone is a fan of Opera!

Probably School Spyware

[JoeCommodore]

Probably the school has some sort of spyware system in place that depends on IE as well as other specific software and snitches on anyone running programs not on the approved list - so the teacher probably saw a red blinking warning stating the student was running this "firefox.exe" program instead of what the school's spyware was monitored to allow.

check the school's website

[sydney troz]

There's a note from the principle that says the letter was modified, and the information floatin around on the net is untrue. http://www.bigspring.k12.pa.us/news.php?action=view_article&article_id=2131

UPDATE: Statement from the school

[ashitaka]

The following notice has been posted on the school's website. Looks like some attitude was involved which would make more sense. Too bad the principal isn't prepared to provide more details about the use of software.

Detention Letter Press Release
December 17, 2007

Recently, a file was uploaded to the Internet purporting to be a copy of a letter from Big Spring High School to a student regarding a two hour detention. The uploaded letter was an altered version of a detention letter sent to a student. Unfortunately, privacy concerns prevent the School District from giving a full explanation of the nature and source of the letter's alteration at this time. The Big Spring School District does have confirmation that the discipline letter was altered.

The reports, blogs and other sources on the Internet indicating that a Big Spring student was assigned detention for using the Firefox internet browser instead of Internet Explorer are untrue and were based on the fake letter. Detention is assigned in our schools after appropriate warnings are given, if students continue to engage in non-academic activities or fail to follow a teacher's directive during class time discipline can and will be assigned.

Sincerely yours,

John C. Scudder

High School Principal

Re:UPDATE: Statement from the school

[onecheapgeek]

The following notice has been posted on the school's website. Looks like some attitude was involved which would make more sense. Too bad the principal isn't allowed to provide more details about the use of software.

Fixed that for you.

Re:And who claimed that it was?

[Sciros]

You clearly didn't actually figure out why the student got the detention. I'll give you a clue: it wasn't for installing Firefox.

FoxFire not FireFox

[kirouac]

who knows what the kids is up to..... but the letter state he uses Foxfire.exe not Firefox... hmm i dunno about Foxfire man... might be some kinda new browser the kid developed :P

Schools are dictatorships ...

[tyroneking]

... led by teachers, kids are cajoled and numbed into becoming the mindless drones our governments want them to be.

The fact that the kid was browsing the Internet instead of doing classwork speaks more to the content of the lesson than anything else.

What we really need is open schooling - where kids decide what they learn and when they do it. There's nothing to rebel against if you have to be responsible for yourself (adults like us learn this lesson the first time we live away from home) and it's easier to learn when you're in the mood and you understand the real point of learning.

In the UK there is Summerhill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summerhill_School) where lessons are optional and the kids decide on new teachers - and Sands School (http://www.sands-school.co.uk/Home.html) which I don't know much about. In India there's the National Institute of Open Schooling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Institute_of_Open_Schooling) which follows a 'learner centric' model.

As a product of 70s and 80s schooling in the UK I can tell you that teachers added nothing but misery and mis-education to my life and that of my friends.

It must be at least 2000 years since the first school - and we still treat kids like cattle ... it's time for a change.

11101011 01010010 10101011 =

[Deadfyre_Deadsoul]

I was 16 at the time (this was back in 89 or so), and was in the computer class. Back in the day it was just computers 1 & 2. Anyway, this nameless teacher had given everyone the assignment of writing some basic thing to put some stuff on the screen and what not. Well, I was 1st done, about 10 minutes in. Now I couldn't turn my work in until everyone else was done. So rather then twiddle my thumbs for the next 30 minutes, I opted to work on some other stuff I had brought from home. It was just some piddly screen savers I had been working on, and hell my assignment for the day was done already, it was not my fault the rest of the class had problems with the stuff, and I was only in there for the class credits. Hell I was 16 and could have taught the damn class.

Needless to say I was suspended from school for 5 days and he banned me from all of his classes because I was working on non school related stuff, even though my work was done, printed out, saved to disk and ready to turn in.

Needless to say the guy was a complete ass hat who didnt need to be teaching kids. They in turn made in principal and then superintendent of the school system.

To this day I still laugh at this fool.

Re:11101011 01010010 10101011 =

[Deadfyre_Deadsoul]

Anyway, its obvious the moron teaching the class should not have been teaching the class if he in this day and age did NOT know what fire fox is. Computer class teachers should be knowledgeable about what they are teaching to their students, not just teaching from the MS book of business economics.

Re:11101011 01010010 10101011 =

[Torvaun]

Already been shown to be a hoax, but...

This is not necessarily a computer class. We had computer related assignments all the time in English classes when I was in high school. We even did research projects where we were expected to go online. While many Slashdotters pride themselves on skill with both grammar and computers, many English teachers do not boast any sort of ability with computers past typing.

what monitoring software ..

[rs232]

"wasn't sure if the school's monitoring software would work with it. "

Where does it mention 'school monitoring software'

was Re:How about the possibility.. (Score:5, Interesting)

********* is a hero

[The Fun Guy]

After having read that detention report, all I have to say is that ******** is a hero for trying to use an OSS browser. ******** deserves a pat on the back, not detention. If more people emulated ********'s example, then they, like ********, would see how much better it is. And to ********'s parents, I say, "You should be proud of ********! ******** should wear this detention like a badge of honor!"

Congratulations, ********!

Also, the teacher, "P. Bealmear" is obviously a certain "S. Ballmer" doing a sabbatical in a high school. I see you, Steve!

this is a hoax

[soybean]

Response to Internet Hoax
December 17, 2007

Recently, a file was uploaded to the Internet purporting to be a copy of a letter from Big Spring High School to a student regarding a two hour detention. The uploaded letter was an altered version of a detention letter sent to a student. Unfortunately, privacy concerns prevent the School District from giving a full explanation of the nature and source of the letter's alteration at this time. The Big Spring School District does have confirmation that the discipline letter was altered.

The reports, blogs and other sources on the Internet indicating that a Big Spring student was assigned detention for using the Firefox internet browser instead of Internet Explorer are untrue and were based on the fake letter. Detention is assigned in our schools after appropriate warnings are given, if students continue to engage in non-academic activities or fail to follow a teacher's directive during class time discipline can and will be assigned.

Sincerely yours,

John C. Scudder

High School Principal

Re:this is a hoax

[blast3r]

Slashdot got Punk'd

Re:authority figure is a moron

[H0p313ss]

So it would then be ok in your book that a police officer tell you to stop driving a Audi and drive only Ford?

Well... only a fool would argue it out with the officer in situ! (While arguing with armed men is an invigorating sport it should be left up to experts... like lawyers...)

The correct approach is to stare in disbelief, say "Yes Sir" and proceed to document the hell out of the situation so you can then take your evidence to the police chief, the mayor, or whatever governmental authority the officer reports to as well as the press.

Yes, the teacher is an ass... how can you supervise an course that somehow involves the web and not know what a web browser is? But arguing the point with the teacher IN FRONT OF THE REST OF THE CLASS is just looking for trouble.

I just remembered... I once had an argument about optics with one of the guys who worked on early semi-conductors... later on he told me I was right and that the only reason I lost the argument was:

• A: He was the teacher and
• B: He was the teacher

In school, the teacher is always right, particularly when they're wrong AND foul tempered.

the teacher was right

[Bizzeh]

in school, college, work... any place like that, you do as you are asked. otherwise, its trouble. installing programs onto a networked computer that arnt authorised to be on their is a one way ticket to bad times.

Re:authority figure is a moron

[bennomatic]

This is not about thinking outside of the box, this is about a kid being snotty.

If the rest of the class was using IE (or whatever) for their task, and the teacher wanted everyone to be using the same tools, they have the right to insist on it. The article doesn't say what the task was, but if the environment in which the student was working was unfamiliar, the teacher might not be comfortable knowing, for instance, that the kid wasn't cheating in some way.

When I was a kid, we wrote all papers by hand, as computers were not widespread, nor printers that had anything better than that ugly dot-matrix stuff. And we were typically told to write in black or blue ink; if someone wrote in red ink, or some other color, they were likely to get their score docked for not following instructions. Arguably arbitrary, even silly, but learning how to follow instructions is important, or you may not find yourself with opportunities to "think outside the box".

Having done some teaching of kids at various age levels, I can imagine what the exchange was like. Detention is not the end of the world, and without knowing the details of the interaction, the task, and some other elements that could affect how this was viewed, it's not possible to tell for sure, but it does not seem like the punishment is outrageous for the crime of insubordination.

what the detention was for ..

[rs232]

The detention was for arguing with the teacher

He was running Foxfire, teacher told him to stop, he didn't, got detention, ergo .. he was punished for running FOxfire. Else enlighten us as to what he was really being punished for.

"Today in class AAA had a program launched called Foxfire.exe. I had told AAA to close the program and to resume work"

Re:Disobedience (Score:5, Interesting)

It's just a browser...

[framauro13]

I used to use it, but then I realised something...

Re:authority figure is a moron

[Foofoobar]

The teacher should have stated 'open Internet explorer' then. His lack of specificity and obvious ignorance are now his downfall.

This is stoopid

[blast3r]

How the hell did this get /.? A teacher basically told a student to quit surfing the web and do their work. This is news?!

Re:Here's his teacher

[Macthorpe]

There is no true discipline but self-discipline. Bullshit.

Never, ever breed, for the good of the rest of us. If you really think your child can only get through life on the lessons he or she learns by themselves, then you are not only sorely mistaken but the worst kind of parent.

Re:authority figure is a moron

[Atlantis-Rising]

And then you will suffer the consequences. You always have the right to disobey the law- but you do so at the understanding that you will presumably be punished as the law decides.

Each situation, then, must be judged along the scale of "Is doing X worth more to me than having to suffer punishment Y?"

IMHO justified

[Duncan Blackthorne]

The executable for Firefox is "firefox.exe", not "foxfire.exe", so I imagine that in the view of however the teacher in this case was monitoring (remotely? from his desk?) what executables were running on student's computers, it must have been flagged as an unknown application. Furthermore if Firefox was installed on the student's computers, then the student wouldn't have needed to bring in (as someone else suggested) a standalone version of Firefox, and the student would've been allowed to use an installed version of Firefox anyway. There's no way that a school should be allowing students to install or run foreign software, that way lie dragons! Of course if the computers in question allowed the student to execute a program from a flash drive or CDROM or from the public Internet, then the network setup and domain policies weren't set up very well either IMHO. It was poorly handled perhaps, but still it sounds to me like the teacher was following/enforcing school policy for student use of computers and was justified for assigning the student in question to detention for: 1) Violating school policy, and 2) Not following the directives of the teacher of that class.

Fake?

[BeanBagKing]

http://www.bigspring.k12.pa.us/news.php?action=view_article&article_id=2131

Response to Internet Hoax
December 17, 2007

Recently, a file was uploaded to the Internet purporting to be a copy of a letter from Big Spring High School to a student regarding a two hour detention. The uploaded letter was an altered version of a detention letter sent to a student. Unfortunately, privacy concerns prevent the School District from giving a full explanation of the nature and source of the letter's alteration at this time. The Big Spring School District does have confirmation that the discipline letter was altered.

The reports, blogs and other sources on the Internet indicating that a Big Spring student was assigned detention for using the Firefox internet browser instead of Internet Explorer are untrue and were based on the fake letter. Detention is assigned in our schools after appropriate warnings are given, if students continue to engage in non-academic activities or fail to follow a teacher's directive during class time discipline can and will be assigned.

Sincerely yours,

John C. Scudder

Don't get me wrong, I'm usually not on the school's side, but a student with computer knowledge altering a document to gain popularity and to raise a cry from everyone on the internet over this isn't unheard of. So who are we to believe? High School Principal

Re:Fake?

[link5280]

So the next question! Does the altered letter further the student's problems? Especially since his school is bombarded with calls, because this made Digg as well. This student is in deep dodo!

Re:authority figure is authority

[ArcherB]

You sound like the classic case of a proletariat. Just do what everyone tells you, even if it is stupid, and you know it's wrong.

First, welcome to the real world.

Second, let's turn your statement around:
Just do whatever you think is best, regardless of what the rules are, because you know what is right and everyone else that disagrees with you is stupid.

Is that the attitude you take at work, on the highways and in your home? We have rules for a reason. Your thinking that they are stupid does not mean it's OK to disobey them. I think it's stupid that I have to wait a red light when there is no traffic coming. Does that mean I should be free to run it? If you have a problem with a rule, challenge the rule, not the person whose job it is to enforce those rules.

In this case, the student should have stopped using Firefox, started using the tools that he was supposed to be using, and then went to the principal or whoever and challenged the use of IE over Firefox.

Tase him, bro!

[Subm]

Tase him, bro!

Respect my Authority!

[Kaenneth]

I had a teacher, who, whenever a student speaking in front of the class said 'um' while speaking would say "'Um' is not a word, 'Um' is not in the dictionary.

Once when she did that to me, I opened the dictionary on her desk to the U's, and pointed out "Um: a interjection used to indicate a pause in speech" (or something like that)

Best detention ever.

Re:Respect my Authority!

[PortHaven]

Yes, and sadly, a common example of why American's are so poorly educated. Anyone smart enough to teach themselves is bashed for it.

"Proving a teacher wrong should NOT equal detention."

I did have a teacher who if you proved them wrong or caught a mistake rewarded you with candy. Now that was a good teacher. Of course, she taught a class for the talented and gifted. She wasn't afraid of smart pupils, it was her desire to encourage them not thwart them.

Re:Respect my Authority!

[Eco-Mono]

I had a teacher like that. Too bad she only taught first grade :(

Hoax, that was my first impression!

[link5280]

Hoax, never!

Again with the straw man?

[khasim]

Hey, if that's all you got, well, that's all you got. So beat that straw man.

You're right. The child should have been allowed to install whatever he wanted on his ... I mean, the school's computer.

Except I did not say that. Whomp on that straw man!

The teacher, acting as a representative of the school district has no right telling students what they can and can't do to school property.

Well, if you think so, that's your opinion.

I'd say that the teacher is the one who implements the school's policies in the classroom. But you can disagree with that if you want to.

I also say that the teacher failed to implement those policies in the fashion of a mature, responsible adult.

If this kid wanted to install the Adult-porn-finder search bar, that should have been allowed.

I'd say your view of school is more that slightly twisted. Why do you believe that such should have been allowed?

If the student wanted to format the drive and leave it at a blinking "Press F1 to continue", that's his right.

Why do you believe that that is okay?

These student's should be allowed to jump around and fling shit all over their monitors if that is what they desire.

Fascinating. Is that how you were raised?

It seems that you cannot accept the fact that the teacher FAILED to act as a responsible, mature ADULT in the situation.

Therefore, any and all actions should be acceptable.

Why?

Re:The Slashdot Effect

[rice_burners_suck]

The story was updated. It's a hoax. DON'T CALL THE SCHOOL!!!

How many calls?

[olddotter]

So how many calls do you think they got?

Re:How many calls?

[link5280]

Enough to punish the kid even more! Wonder if it was the same kid who did the mock letter! Give him a shovel, the hole isnt deep enough yet.

Re:How many calls?

[wfWebber]

Probably enough to be the first documented case of phone-slashdotting.

Re:authority figure is a moron

[Penguinisto]

Err, you got that seriously wrong, and on way too many levels.

A subordinate not only has the right, but the responsibility to disobey a clearly illegal order under the UCMJ (says nothing about morality - otherwise the infantry would be a whole lot smaller than it is now). As a veteran myself, if I were ever given an illegal order, I'd get hold of someone with some actual authority over the illegal-order-giver first and get some damned clarification first, not just sit there and say "nuh-uh!" a lot. There's a system in place for such instances, and you damned well better use it whenever it's available. Also know that if you do refuse, you still have to explain and justify your refusal in a court martial, so simply saying "no" doesn't get you off the hook. You'd better be fully prepared to justify it, because if that order does turn out to be at least somewhat justified and legit, you're fucked (e.g. you refused an order but didn't know the whole story as to why it was given, but it turns out the order was actually legal).

Now... a teacher telling a kid to stop using a program is not an illegal order. The teacher may be ignorant, he may be incompetent, and he may well be a flaming asshat. That said, his authority still rules in the classroom. If the kid had a problem with it, he should've taken it up with the principal and/or the school counselors. There is a system in place, and the kid can use it at any time. There's also this one last niggling detail - the teacher and kid are both civilians, and took no oath to do anything.

I've run a classroom before. I built my own network in it. If the student asked, I encouraged experimentation (Hell, I had images and spare HDD's loaded with them as well). If I told a kid to stop doing something, I explained the reason why I wanted it stopped, and listened for any mitigating circumstance. If that didn't stop him and the explanation wasn't satisfactory, I locked the keyboard and mouse, isolated the box from the network, and had the principal deal with the kid. 99.999% of the time, I never had to deal with it at that level - the kids were smart enough to realize that when I said something of that nature, there was a damned good reason behind it, even if it didn't make sense to them at the time.

I can grok the stupidity involved with banning Firefox and all, and yeah, it is stupid. That said, it's no excuse for a student to disobey the teacher like that. There are avenues and systems that can resolve the situation without some sort of stupid power-play egofest being triggered. That's a game the student will always lose, even if he is in the right. Far better to do the job right and know that you won fairly, than to get in a shouting match and go from a student - to becoming a 'problem' that has to be 'solved'.

/P

delinquent's detention made to Slashdot, wow

[layer3switch]

Detention is assigned in our schools after appropriate warnings are given, if students continue to engage in non-academic activities or fail to follow a teacher's directive during class time discipline can and will be assigned.

Enough said. Move along... Nothing to see here.

Phone

[fm6]

One of the school officials was nice enough to contact us and let us know this is a hoax. If you are planning on calling the school please refrain from doing so, I'm sure they have had enough excitement for one day.

Well, now I know what to do with the phone numbers in Craigslist spam.

Re:authority figure is a moron

[orclevegam]

The teacher needs instruction. Agreed. But that is the kind of thing to take up with the principal. That doesn't make it OK for the kid to disobey the teacher. Well, based on what's provided in TFA it's impossible to determine if the student disobeyed the teacher or not. Suppose that the following conversation had happened:

Teacher: Open the internet and go to www.somesite.com and do the assignment there.
Student opens Firefox, goes to the site, and starts the assignment.
Teacher: What are you doing, I told you to go to the internet and do the assignment, now close that game and do it.
Student: This isn't a game, it's a web browser, and I did go to the site. I'm doing the assignment now.
Teacher: Shut that game down right now or you get detention.
Student: It's not a game. I told you, this is a web browser like IE.
Teacher: That's it, you have detention.
Now, I'm not saying that's what happened, but it's possible. Until we get some more information we don't know whether the student did anything wrong or not.

Seeing through the unhoax

[Ichijo]

The uploaded letter was an altered version of a detention letter sent to a student.

Correct, the student's name was blocked out to create the "altered" version.

The reports, blogs and other sources on the Internet indicating that a Big Spring student was assigned detention for using the Firefox internet browser instead of Internet Explorer are untrue and were based on the fake letter.

Technically, the student was assigned detention for insubordination.

Re:authority figure is a moron

[Hatta]

We all know this is a hoax now, but I still have to say this. The proper response to arbitrary and capricious authority is utter disobedience. The alternative merely teaches that being powerful is more important than being right, which is exactly the kind of thinking that causes most of the worlds troubles. There is so much good that could be done if people would simply stand up and fight back against those in power, but they've been trained to be completely submissive by people with your kind of attitude.

Re:authority figure is a moron

[aztektum]

Where, pray tell, is this place known as "Idiocity"?

Or did you mean idiocy?

Teacher not right!

[Roger W Moore]

Second, the teacher was right in assigning detention. The teacher is in charge and has the right to tell the students what they can and can't run on school computers.

Just because you have the right to do something does not make it correct. For example you have the right to go into the street and shout non-threatening racist comments but is a very long way from correct behaviour in any imaginable circumstance. The important thing that many seemed to have missed is that the teacher is lacking in teaching, not just IT, skills.

If the reaction to something the students do but which he/she has never seen before is to shut it down without understanding it how is that encouraging learning? Nobody can know it all but the reaction to something new which your students come up with should be to ask them to explain what it is, how it works, why its better etc. That way YOU learn something new and your students get encouraged to think. In addition, far from losing respect, they will develop a far greater respect for you because you are being honest and respectful to them. Even if it turns out to be a daft idea you can at least explain to them the reason why your way is better than theirs which will hopefully improve their thinking next time.

Not your property

[mlund]

It doesn't really matter what the student's opinion of the teacher's instruction was.

The teacher is a contracted agent of the school to whom the hardware and software belongs.

The student has no right to refuse to comply with an instruction to cease operating the school's computer system. It doesn't belong to him.

He or she can certainly lodge a complaint with the administration if he feels that running the software in question is normally permitted by the school's use policy. It may be that the teacher was in the wrong. It may be that the schools systems only allow the SysAdmin to add executables to the system images and FireFox was not supposed to be part of that system - for whatever reason. It is certain, however, that the student deserved detention.

original letter

[xPsi]

update: 12/17 20:09 by SM One of the school officials was nice enough to contact us and let us know this is a hoax. If you are planning on calling the school please refrain from doing so, I'm sure they have had enough excitement for one day. From the school letter: Recently, a file was uploaded to the Internet purporting to be a copy of a letter from Big Spring High School to a student regarding a two hour detention. The uploaded letter was an altered version of a detention letter sent to a student. Unfortunately, privacy concerns prevent the School District from giving a full explanation of the nature and source of the letter's alteration at this time. The Big Spring School District does have confirmation that the discipline letter was altered Hoax disciple letter: "...had a program launched called Firefox.exe..."
Original discipline letter: "...was browsing slashdot with Firefox."

Ah, now we are getting to the nub of it. But, of course, as we all know, this is actually perfect training for the real world.

Re:original letter

[Teriblows]

lol new story..slashdot pwned:)

Re:authority figure is a moron

[vidarh]

I strongly disagree. The best time to question authority is ALWAYS when they try to order you around for reasons you find absurd. Yes, it's disuptive, and that's exactly the point. Questioning it at any other time tends to be met with a shrug if you've got no power to do anything more, which is exactly the case when dealing with teachers. However, you need to be prepared to deal with the consequences.

Inaccurate even if not a hoax

[DaveV1.0]

This would be inaccurate even if it weren't hoax. The student would be getting detention for not following the teachers directions. The fact that the directions were "Do not use firefox." is irrelevant.

Re:authority figure is a moron

[NealokNYU]

I'll be modded offtopic, but as someone who went to Marine Corps boot camp, let's not go too far with our comparisons:

USMC DRILL INSTRUCTOR: "Put that left sock on right now! 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1."

USMC RECRUITS: "Done, sir, done!"

USMC DRILL INSTRUCTOR: "Put that right sock on right now! 10, 9, 5, 3, 2, 1!"

USMC RECRUITS: "Done, sir, done!"

I went to a strict parochial school, and they had NOTHING on the good ol' USMC.

More on topic, perhaps unfocused use of the internet is exactly why people don't get work done in the real world, necessarily. Yes, yes, they'll be fired, a good workplace monitors traffic and blocks non-productive sites, but to deny the tendency to take extemporaneous hour breaks in the modern workplace is to put Popcap out of business.

I don't know how you would implement a meaningful traffic control policy for K-12-- it seems like it would probably have to occur at the district level of IT mentioned above-- but in a world of PornTube, 2girls1cup, and a trillion other sites, maybe limiting kids' full access to the internet isn't totally evil. I know if I were capable of unfettered computer/internet access when I was in school, I would have visited all manner of unspeakable internet nonsense... and I did when my high school finally got broadband access!

I'm NOT saying the kid was up to no good here. He was probably stunned at how stupid his teacher was. But the general sentiment on Slashdot always seems to be, "Let all information run free all the time, as in beer and speech, no matter what!"

Re:US Bases in Europe ban firefox, mozzie 2 the re

[Actually, I do RTFA]

Additionally, firefox, with a plugin, ties directly into the Tor network, so it's deemed a security risk.

Tor is a security risk (reference the people who snooped all the unencrypted e-mail passwords.) Can you protect against it with encryption, yes, but that doesn't mean you should invite the *insert favorite national enemy* agents to listen in.

My Take on the Situation

[Zashi]

Here's my take on the situation:

The student is doing some web based assignment. Maybe research, maybe some web test off the school's server. Whatever.

Whether the student was allowed to use or install Firefox isn't really in question (though it is something to consider).

The student was told to do the assignment (which the teacher probably didn't realize didn't require IE, just a browser). He uses firefox. The teacher tells him to close firefox and do the assignment, not realizing that using firefox and the assignment aren't mutually exclusive. The student blows the teacher's demands off knowing their ridiculous. The teacher gets irate and has detention assigned.

I made many assumptions obviously, as has everyone else who has ventured to speculate. From my view, detention is a bit much since the teacher is largely at fault here too.

All the same, woo firefox!

P.S. I've done web assignments in IE because it was the only browser installed (and I the only real alternative at the time, Netscape, wouldn't work with the IE only site). Crash city! I lost hours of work that way.

Re:authority figure is a moron

[MBCook]

That's obnoxious. If this was the second time this happened, after having talked to the principal about this, that would be one thing. But it is a stupid idea to just decide to disobey as soon as you think some rule is arbitrary or capricious. This isn't an adult. He's not free. He's in school. Going over the teacher's head and getting them overruled doesn't teach the teacher they are more powerful. Throwing a tantrum in class by being disobedient simply shows which of the two of you are more mature.

The first step in standing up for yourself and fighting back is trying the correct channels. You don't start civil disobedience and other such things until that has failed or proven unworkable.

You stand up for yourself. It's just not the first thing you can go to. Making the teacher look like an idiot because they don't know something they aren't trained on does nothing but cause problems. The kid had other options.

Re:Here's his teacher

[Macthorpe]

"harrass"[sic] That is what we call in the industry a 'mistake'. This you would know from the fact that you typed 'nowhere' as two words. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Indeed I even went to the length of typing *stands well back* in order to distance myself from what people wish to do with the information I provided. Whatever you need to tell yourself to help you sleep at night. Considering that the article is in fact a hoax, I hope you're prepared to accept the consequences of doing so.

Re:authority figure is a moron

[Hatta]

Throwing a tantrum in class by being disobedient simply shows which of the two of you are more mature.

Saying "no" is hardly throwing a tantrum. The immature one is the one who escalates the situation, i.e. the teacher.

You stand up for yourself. It's just not the first thing you can go to. Making the teacher look like an idiot because they don't know something they aren't trained on does nothing but cause problems.

It would teach the teacher that, no they don't know everything. And in fact, their students know a lot more than they are given credit for, and deserve more respect. Students would be a lot more enthusiastic about school if they were just treated like human beings.

Despite this being a hoax...

[stubear]

...the student was punished for failing to follow instructions, not for using Firefox. Whether the student was right or not about Firefox being a "better" browser, it appears that there were numerous requests to stop using it, period. Maybe the school had an IT policy in place that prohibits the use of any other browsers then the one provided. We aren't given enough information to come to this or any other conclusion, however, and given the hoax letter all we do know is the student was being an ass. He was instructed to do something and ignored those instructions.

With the rise of "internet justice" it is becoming increasingly more important to improve one's reading comprehension skills and actually note what's being said without interjecting your own biases into the issue. Far too many people read a summary in a blog, the headline of an article or just the first few sentences and are unable to make a reasonable assertion as evidenced by this incident. Too many people want to see Firefox become THE gold standard of web browsers and when they read that some random student is being denied the ability to use said browser, they fly off the handle regardless of having all the facts or not, regardless of understanding the actual complaint or not. if you're going to be a bunch of self-righteous pricks, at least be educated self-righteous pricks.

Re:Despite this being a hoax...

[Anonymous Coward]

With the rise of "internet justice" it is becoming increasingly more important to improve one's reading comprehension skills and actually note what's being said without interjecting your own biases into the issue.

Amen to your post! If I had mod points I'd certainly give you one. Unfortunately it's become all too fashionable to post knee-jerk reactions, to condemn authority figures, and to accept the first bits of information as gospel, especially here on Slashdot. It's a shame, because the Slashdot population should be more intelligent than this.

If this is a hoax...

[night_flyer]

and you want people to refrain from calling the school... you could... you know... remove the story...

Re:If this is a hoax...

[Joe U]

Or instead post an update and let the users actually read and think for themselves.

Just because you can delete a published story doesn't mean you should.

Re:If this is a hoax...

[night_flyer]

yeah, cause we know slashdotters actually read the stories

Re:authority figure is a moron

[MBCook]

The teacher is the authority. They said "close program X", the kid needed to close program X. The kid tried to prove their point, it didn't work, they need to do what the teacher said. You take the issue up after class with the teacher or the principal. The kid just wasted class time and acted inappropriately.

By the time I write this, we know it's a hoax. But that doesn't matter. If the story was true, the kid still acted wrong because they didn't obey the teacher at that moment. No one was in danger. It wasn't that urgent. He just wanted to look cool or more powerful. He was behaving inappropriately.

Except...

[LWATCDR]

That it was a fraud.
I am surprised that even I fell for it.
1. Why would the teacher call it Firefox.exe? They where smart enough to figure out the name of the executable but don't know what firefox is?
2. Why put down that much detail for a two hour detention? "After being asked twice the student refused to follow the teachers instructions". Or the teacher could have just put down. "Student failed to follow school policy."

We where scammed and will now probably end up on snopes.com.

I find it funny that you think it is reasonable to trust a students opinion on what programs should or should not be installed on a PC? Ever see a computer that is used by a teen? Ever clean the malware off a computer used by the average teen?

Re:Except...

[porcupine8]

I believed it because it reminded me too much of what happened when I was in high school...

WARNING: PERSONAL ANECDOTE AHEAD!

In my English class (circa 1995 or 1996), we were in the computer lab typing up stories. Having finished writing and typing my stories with about half the class time left, I asked the teacher if I could use the time to work on some flyers for a Student Council event. She said no. So I sat there staring at my finished stories, and started playing with the fonts and font colors on them for something to do.

The teacher came over and yelled at me for working on the flyers she told me not to work on. I explained to her that this wasn't a flyer, this was my story I wrote for her, see the story there on the screen?

The next day after student council (which was a class at my HS called Civil Leadership), the teacher wanted to talk to me. It seems my English teacher (who was friends with the SC teacher) had told her that I was doing student council work in her class after she told me not to! When I explained the situation to the SC bitch teacher, she said that I "shouldn't put myself in situations where my integrity could be questioned." WTF?

I wound up getting a B in SC that semester. I also got a B in English, because after that incident I stopped turning in any homework. Luckily, I got a different English teacher the next semester, and those were the only 2 Bs I got in high school.

Re:Except...

[LWATCDR]

Hey it happens to everyone at least once.
I had a Social Studies teacher in seventh grade that took us to the Library one day a week to do "extra credit". It was the stupidest busy work you can imagine. I think we had to find books using the card catalog or something just as dumb.
Since I had a 100+ average in the class I used the time to draw airplanes. I got sent to the deans office for not doing the extra credit.

Your case does seem stupid but looking at it from her point of view I can see the logic. If she had let you do that other project then other students that where not as bright as you might also try to do other stuff. It would have been too hard for her to try and police who could and couldn't do an outside project. Plus we have the famous battle cry of teenagers... It isn't fair.... For you to do that project in class when other students couldn't.
The teacher probably should have figured something else for you to do that was class related. Maybe she just didn't have time to deal with you right then.

Way back when I was in high school we had to take a class called comparative government. Basically it was "communism bad democracy good".
It was in no way leveled so every class was a mix of students.
A friend and I where in the class together and we really liked the subject. We kept asking questions and having discussions. The poor teacher finally took us to one side and explained that some kids where going to fail that class if we kept it up. He would bring in extra books for us to read and we could ask him questions after class if we wanted too.
We both got an A in the class with no real effort. That teacher had limited amount of time and we where taking up too much of it.
It happens, teachers are not perfect and I would like to think that most of them do the best they can with the resources available.

Re:Except...

[porcupine8]

It wasn't so much that she wouldn't let me do the Student Council stuff. But I DIDN'T do it, then she accused me of doing it just b/c I was playing with fonts, then I SHOWED her that I wasn't doing it, then she still told the SC teacher that I HAD done it. All because she apparently didn't realize that I could change the fonts on my stories (for her), not just on the flyers I wanted to work on.

The poor teacher finally took us to one side and explained that some kids where going to fail that class if we kept it up.

Heh, that is classic. As much as some people whine that having different levels of classes is elitist, it really does make it easier on the teachers.

Re:Except...

[LWATCDR]

As I said everybody has at least one jerk teacher in their life.

They didn't level that class because it was a real BS class. The year before I took it they called it Communism vs Democracy. The changed it to a less Doctor Stranglove like comparative government the year I took it. I think it has be replaced with Economics. Just to show you how things never change I graduated High School in 83.
Of course I would have never had gotten into trouble changing fonts on my english paper. Way hard to do it when your word processor was a No. 2 pencil. I actually had a teacher freak out because I used my brand new Commodore 64 to write a school paper. She thought that it was so weird that I would take the time to type draft and that then I could make the changes and retype it so by the next day :)

Re:Except...

[Knave75]

I also got a B in English, because after that incident I stopped turning in any homework.

Yeah, you sure showed that teacher whatfor.

Re:No,the teacher was wrong(based on facts present

[strings42]

Or it could be that a bunch of slashdotters were completely trolled in by a hoax and went off to the races with unfounded allegations .... nah, that could never happen.

That doesnt change the fact ...

[jopet]

that detention is a rather anchronistic measure to motivate students. I always find it amazing when clueless teachers try to motivate students to study by using studying or hanging around school as a punishment.
I am amazed to see how 1900 US schools still are.
And principals being proud about their being 1900.

it's in Illinois

[name_already_taken]

Where, pray tell, is this place known as "Idiocity"?

According to Google Maps it's at the Art Institute of Chicago

Idiocity

[rk]

Where, pray tell, is this place known as "Idiocity"?

It's on the Potomac River, about 100 miles upstream from the Chesapeake Bay.

Re:authority figure is a moron

[flitty]

IIRC, I had to sign a waiver to use any "computer lab" in almost every school, which 99% of the time included a "Only approved programs can be installed..." etc., and failing to follow that rule got you kicked out, and if defiant about it, detention. If the Computer Lab operator didn't know what the program was, he had every right to kick the kid out. This (hypothetically) wasn't a college student using his own laptop in the computer lab. This (hypothetical) situation has most likely happened many times in many schools, what's the big deal?

Re:authority figure is a moron

[orclevegam]

Had this actually happened I would have pulled my kid from that school. I think school is a place children go to learn, not to be instructed. It's a subtle but very important point. Unfortunately there are very few schools left that are places of learning. I understand your point, but it's one I disagree on. As this is a matter of opinion concerning learning style and the position the school institution plays in society I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on the theoretical outcome of this situation.

Re:authority figure is a moron

[squallbsr]

Detention is not the end of the world,

Hmm, sounds like somebody didn't have parent's like mine, when being home 5 minutes late caused 2 weeks of grounding. God knows what would have happened if I ended up in detention...

Re:authority figure is a moron

[jedidiah]

Don't be so sure.

Both the Corps and the public schools can change a lot over the years.

When I went through the recruits were quickly in a routine of getting up early (before reveille) so as to get a jump on the day so there wouldn't be any opportunity for a DI (or the SDI) to kibutz that much.

10 seconds per sock? That's way too inefficient.

he he - anyone actually read the detention letter

[einar.petersen]

The detention letter actually says Foxfire.exe - not FireFox.... ah well

Re:authority figure is a moron

[jedidiah]

He was being ordered to do something that could harm/disable the computer.

He was being ordered to do something that might prevent him from finishing the assignment.

He was being ordered to do something that might cause it to appear that he has done something illegal.

Clueless teachers...

[Bert64]

I witnessed a kid in my class being given a detention, for "trying to break the school computers".
He was using keyboard shortcuts, instead of going through the slow laborious way the teacher had shown the class.

Yes I have. Many times.

[khasim]

Ever see a computer that is used by a teen? Ever clean the malware off a computer used by the average teen?

Yes I have. Many times.

I find it funny that you think it is reasonable to trust a students opinion on what programs should or should not be installed on a PC?

Where did I say that?

I said that the teacher did not behave in a mature, responsible fashion.

I said that if the teacher HAD behaved in a mature, responsible fashion, that this would never have been an issue.

I am frequently required to inform our users that the software they want to run on the company computers does NOT meet the criteria that I developed. But because I am able to do so in a mature fashion, this does not become a problem.

It's as simple as that. Treat them with respect and they'll treat you with respect.

If the teacher did not know what Firefox was, the teacher is hardly competent to teach any class that utilizes a browser.

Re:Yes I have. Many times.

[Tastecicles]

"Treat them with respect and they'll treat you with respect."

You're not a parent, are you?

Re:authority figure is a moron

[Miseph]

As someone who plans to be a teacher and comes from a family of educators and school administrators, that's bullshit.

Teachers are not omnipotent or all knowing, and any teacher who is too arrogant to accept that they might be mistaken has no business educating our future, especially if they are so intellectually dishonest as to punish a student for knowing something that they do not. Some day the kids are going to be smarter than us anyway, so gracefully acknowledging that they might know some information we do not is simply common sense.

Furthermore, schools SHOULD NOT teach children how to mindlessly follow instructions and obey orders. It should teach them to think, and provide the framework tools necessary to doing so and participating in our culture without having to reinvent the wheel. Questioning authority is part of that, and one that we cannot afford to stamp out.

When I was a kid, I did stupid stuff like this too

[Theovon]

When I was in high school (graduated in '91), I knew vastly more about computers than the teachers did. That wasn't a major feat considering the time, and I am now aware of how many things I thought I knew but knew wrong at the time. But in any case, because of my "vastly superior" knowledge, I was a total cocky-ass jerk. Because of my (perceived, at least) superior technical knowledge, I was a discipline problem and a disruption in class. I would "correct" what the teacher said and refuse (or at least resist) to do what the teacher told me to do, etc.

I should have gotten my ass beat for this.

Of course, at the time, I was really hard-headed. I'm not sure I would have learned my lesson if I had been punished. I was the sort of person who would get so caught up in being technically correct that I was blind to the concepts of being socially or procedurally or ethically incorrect.

I'm 34 now and in grad school. I took a computational linguistics class where we had to code an Earley parser, which is a dynamic programming approach to human language parsing. I was bothered by the fact that the grammar we were using was, in my opinion, half-assed. I think lexical grammars are a better (if still not very good) model of how humans process language syntactically. But I did not complain. I had a good time chewing the fat with the professor about it during office hours, because it's interesting, but there was no need for me to "complain" about it in any context. After all these years, I'm able to pull my head out of my ass and recognize that we often "simplify" things or make arbitrary choices as a foil for learning something more general. We were not there to learn about lexical grammars. We're there to learn to write parsers, and an Earley parser can be adapted to lexical grammars should I feel inclined to do so. Big picture here!

Let's hope this kid doesn't take as long as I did to learn to see the bigger picture, recognize that life involves judicious compromises, learn to function socially, and not be so self-centered that he makes things harder on other people just for the sake of being "right". (And by "right", I mean that he may have logical support for his hypothesis, but it's technical and the topic can still be debated. I'm NOT talking about moral "right" here, which is a whole other subject matter.)

Re:Entirely appropriate.

[PortHaven]

Really?

I thought the reason I paid exuberant municipal and county school taxes was to 'educate the young'.

If our school system exists merely to make children subservient and obedient to authority than something is wrong. Then the system should be done away with and better stop begging for more money.

Re:The Slashdot Effect

[guardian-ct]

Wait, the OP saying it's a hoax, and asking that people not call? Am I still on Slashdot?

In summary...

[websitebroke]

The school system is not the military. Thank God.

"The real life" is much more reasonable (with some notable exceptions). Most bosses just care that you get your work done and don't give a rat's ass what program you use to get there.

Yeah, there is a time and place to take up grievances. In this case, shock at a teacher's grievous stupidity is completely understandable. It was situations like this that contributed to me being completely disillusioned with school. School is insulting and irritating enough without this sort of trouble from teachers.

Most schools in my area (I live about 45 minutes drive from this school) are NOT tech savvy in the least. Another nearby school had trouble with kids logging in to the system and causing havoc with the computers. The password in question was the school's street address. (and that one was not a hoax)

Fascist lies!

[Keyper7]

He was using Firefox to download OpenOffice and use it to write his resume.

Really.

Social DDOS?

[dreemernj]

Maybe someone created this hoax hoping a /. link to the school's website would take it down :-D

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Bureaucratic stupidity

[wikinerd]

I find it funny that while in theory schools exist to help students learn about the nature and the society they are growing in, detention punishes students by making them stay in the school more, therefore implying that school is probably a bad place to spend one's time.

Here we have a great example of a brainless bureaucracy punishing one of its subjects for being smarter than the crowd. This student may have done something wrong (installed software on someone else's PC without permission) BUT I hope we all can see here that this student was smart enough to understand the deficiencies of mainstream browser(s), find a better browser, and install it. One would assume that society and schools should encourage children to take initiative, fix mistakes when they see them, and take decisions that make their life and the life of everyone better. This student discovered that the big bureaucracy they were subjected in was using a stone age browser, and he took a bold decision to fix the problem immediately without bureaucratic inefficiencies (the only problem being that he should have asked for some kind of permission first because the computer was probably not their property, but we can overlook this because we can't expect from young kids to observe complex society rules, so we should have used this as an opportunity to teach them, but detention really doesn't help a pupil to understand the concept of property at all, it only makes them feel alienated from society and think that they live in a dangerous place).

This is exactly how self-organised societies can function (by the way my academic research is related to self-organised non-hierarchical business companies and swarm intelligence algorithms), self-organisation is a good thing, and yet big bureaucracies like this school kill every spark of self-organisation at first opportunity. One has to wonder whether discipline and hierarchical control has become the new religion and it causes us to live in greatly inefficient bureaucratic McDonaldised iron cages (ironically McDonaldisation implies efficiency but in reality the associated bureaucracies create inefficiencies in many ways). Really, how much time have you lost trying to persuade your boss (if you work in a traditionally hierarchical company, which I thankfully managed to avoid as an independent) that your next project should be done in a serious language such as Python or Lisp instead of .NET? Or that Firefox and Thunderbird should be allowed on your work PC?

Also, why should schools be designed with teachers being superior to students? All humans are students, after all, and some students may know more in one subject than the teachers. For example, in this case probably the teacher knew more in some academic subject (let's say history) and the kid knew more in technology. I see this as a good opportunity to learn: The teacher could invite the student to speak publicly to the class about why this mysterious program "firefox.exe" is a better browser, and they could ask the student to write an academic essay analysing their position on browser choice and argue for or against allowing students to install whatever they want on school PCs. The teacher could offer guidance to the student, explaining that while some students may know better and install good software (firefox), other students may put the school in risk by installing malicious software (viruses), and for this reason some sort of efficient supervision needs to exist. The student then would be required to search online for examples of arguments supporting each view and come up with their own position on the matter, etc... All this could be a great academic exercise, and it would also offer the teacher the opportunity to *learn* from the student, specifically to learn why "firefox.exe" is a better browser. This is what I mean that everyone is a student... Even PhD holders and well-known researchers are nothing more than students, they d

Re:Bureaucratic stupidity

[wikinerd]

Just saw this might be a hoax. The criticism was based in the case that this incident were true. But since now we have some information suggesting that this may be a hoax, the criticism should be understood in a general way and not specific to this school.

Not exactly a hoax...

[NimbleSquirrel]

http://gadgets.boingboing.net/2007/12/17/student-given-detent.html

There was a student, and he was using Firefox, and he did get a detention.

However, the student wasn't supposed to be using IE, he was supposed to be using Word. He should have been working on a resume (his assignment) instead of browsing the web, but that was not what he got detention for.

He got detention for mouthing off at the teacher.

The student photoshopped the detention letter to remove the real reason, and posted it on the web (I assume he knew it would get a reaction).

The student is probably in a lot more trouble now than if he just shut up and took the detention. Even if the letter was genuine, it just showed that he was being insubordinate by repeatedly refusing to do what the teacher asked. Not the best 'hoax'.

Clueless...

[LWATCDR]

"It's as simple as that. Treat them with respect and they'll treat you with respect."
You really think that if you treat EVERY teenager with "respect" they will treat you with respect?
What is worse is that the "teacher" never did a thing wrong! This was a fraud, scam, lie, a work of fiction.

Re:Clueless...

[Scudsucker]

You really think that if you treat EVERY teenager with "respect" they will treat you with respect?

Same of course applies to teachers and parents - doesn't matter how well the kid behaves, an authoritarian will find some way to crack the whip.

Re:Clueless...

[shutdown -p now]

You really think that if you treat EVERY teenager with "respect" they will treat you with respect?

No, so here's a much better working algorithm:

1. Treat them with respect.
2. If they treat you with respect as well, keep it going.
3. If they don't, start being intimidating.

The problem is usually when people go to #3 straight away ("Bah, most of those kids are idiots anyway, why bother trying?"). It really sucks for the smart teen to be on the receiving end of that.

Re:No,the teacher was wrong(based on facts present

[PortHaven]

That could be....I never said "Don't question the facts!"

But having been in a number of such situations in my past with poor educators. It doesn't sound implausible. And of course, the final caveat of the school will be a failure on the part of the student to be subservient and cow-tow it the teacher, even if the teacher is wrong. Because it's far more wrong to hurt a teacher's pride...

this sounds familiar

[cjdkoh]

this hoaxious teacher sounds as incompentant as my school's head of IT. the only difference seems to be that our head of IT would have given a student detention for using internet explorer rather than firefox if it were possible.

This happened to me too

[daybringer]

I will probibally get in trouble for this for posting this too. I put firefox setup on the public drive that anyone can access Friday morning and Monday morning I was in the office geting work detail (cleaning up trash for an hour) My school's phone number is 720 972 6700 feel free to voice your opinion as many times as you want.

Re:authority figure is a moron

[bennomatic]

Trust me, I got grounded plenty. Again, not the worst thing in the world. And if this kid was as snotty about using Firefox as I imagine him to have been, he probably deserved to be grounded, too.

When I was this kid's age, we had computer labs filled with Apple IIes and Commodore Pets. If a teacher had said to do something on the Apples and I (a Commodore fan back then) had refused and insisted on doing it on a Pet, the teacher probably would have had some right to give me detention.

In another few years, the Firefox/IE wars are going to sound reminiscent of the old Apple IIe/Commodore 64/Atari 800 wars. This kid was just being a punk, and he got punk'd.

Me, I'm no fan of IE, and truthfully, I don't think schools should be using non-FOSS software, as it helps promote the entrenched advantages that MS has. But if a kid wants to rail against MS software, he can do it in a productive way and get the rules changed, rather than being smarmy about having a "better" browser when IE would have been fine for his use.

And yes, I'd say the teacher probably should have been willing to listen, but gee, have you ever tried to teach 35 teenie boppers at one time? It's hard, hard work, and I, for one, stand behind the teachers who do that day in and day out, for far too little compensation.

Hoax or not?????????

[Joe the Lesser]

One report says it never happened signed by the principal, another said they talked to the principal about the event.

Me so confused :(

How dare....

[moondo]

That kid got what he deserved. That'll teach him not to mess with rogue programs. The teacher has successfully saved the kid from taking the red pill.

Re:authority figure is a moron

[MBCook]

It's amazing how many people read what they want into my posts. I didn't say "just suck it up and take it", I said suck it up and take it for that period, then go discuss it and get it changed. My point was the time the kid put up his fight. I don't think the middle of the class was the right time for that (hypothetical, since this was a hoax) fight. I can easily see a teacher who is unsure of technology doing this. If you have a kid tell you "X is just like what you said to use", do you want to risk X being something that will destroy the computers, or just tell them to do what you know to be safe?

The teacher might have handled it wrong. They could have asked IT or another teacher or even a student they trust if they wanted to.

The kid definitely handled it wrong. This wasn't something worth disrupting class over.

Questioning authority is fine. It's good. But there is such a thing as decorum and acting properly. This wasn't something important enough to need fighting right there. It could have waited until class was over. That's my point.

This has happened to me

[cowplex]

Yes, incredible as it may seem, this has happened to me.

Let me repeat that:
this HAS happened to me.

Schools (K-12 at least) seem to be under the impression that students should be locked down hard from the Internet - a policy I may not agree with, but see good reason for. However, this attitude has gotten me into trouble a number of times.

For instance, one day we had some assignment to look something or another up on the Internet. Since I had my laptop there, I decided that I would use it instead (it has a Dvorak keyboard, which I like better than QWERTY). I pulled out my laptop, hooked it up to an unused RJ45 jack with a cat5e cable that I had brought from home, and did the assignment. At the end of the hour, as we were all packing up, our "sysadmin" (I use the term loosely, as I could do a better job than him while in a coma) walked in and saw my laptop. He walked over, asked my name, and then asked me to try to access a blocked webpage (myspace, if I remember correctly). I typed in the URL, and lo and behold the site came up. The sysadmin looked puzzled, thanked me, and walked away, polite as can be. The next day I found my computer account suspended and a fresh new detention slip waiting for me for circumventing school security, even though I had never done so until he asked me to visit the blocked website.

The first detention was something that I could see a faint glimmer of rationality in, but the second one I got took the cake. This one occurred a few days later, while my computer account was still suspended. I was in the lab again, using the teacher's account (we needed the internet again, and my laptop had suddenly and mysteriously been banned from connecting to the internet at school) when the sysadmin walked into the room and saw me on the computer. He talked to me teacher for a while, and I could see her trying to explain why I needed her account and his insistence that I was breaking every school rule known. Eventually, he walked over to me and asked whose account I was on, etc. and told me to get off immediately. I complied, but before he walked away I asked why my laptop could no longer connect to the network. I asked as polite as you please, no anger in my voice, no threatening actions, etc. He simply looked at me with an odd expression on his face for a few seconds and then walked off. Next day I get a slip with not one, not two, not three, but FOUR detentions for "using another person's account" and for "insubordination."

All this hyperbole brings me back to my initial point: at a different point in time, I got a detention for using a version of portable firefox from my thumbdrive.

Re:This has happened to me

[cowplex]

This is entirely true, and I can see the rationality behind it all. I guess I just needed to vent, as other schools in that district have firefox pre-installed on their computers, and the ones I was using did not (ant then I got a detention for using it).

The CIPA issue, at least for the firefox debate, is actually a non-issue - from the little poking around that I have done, they seem to have set up one master "gateway" server running blocking software that is accessed through a proxy. It doesn't matter what browser I use - I get the same filtered content. But telling me I HAVE to use IE? Talk about breaking someone's spirit...

Re:This has happened to me

[CrazyTalk]

All I can say is - I'm glad I went to school before personal computers were around!

Re:This has happened to me

[seanadams.com]

For chrissake man, do yourself a favor. Drop out and go start a software company.

Re:This has happened to me

[_14k4]

"I pulled out my laptop, hooked it up to an unused RJ45 jack with a cat5e cable that I had brought from home, and did the assignment." ..do that in the corporate world and you will get fired, even when the sysadmin is nice about it. No admin wants unauthorized equipment on his/her network. Do you know if that was the reason you got detention instead of the page access? Circumventing security could simply be not putting in a password to get a connection - something that may be "forced" on the crappy boxes the school may have.

Next time, don't use your laptop.

If anything, to protect yourself. If the admin is as bad as you say they are... what's to say your machine won't get filled with crap from the one security hole you forgot to patch/watch?

Re:This has happened to me

[G00F]

If I was your parent I would have gone in with both guns blazing with that 2nd one, giving them hell. In no way would I allow my kid be to punished for doing exactly as a teacher asked. But then I prob would of had a nice conversation with the principal durring the first one that would have prevented the 2nd issue to have occurred. And I probability would not let you bring a laptop to school.

It doesn't take a computer literate person to know that
1. You went to a non allowed site because you did what the school IT person told you to do.
2. You used the teachers login with permission to do an assignment because of an overzealous IT person.

But as someone with an IT background I can bring up other things, such as the incompetent IT person taking things personal, and acting as such.

The IT person was way over zealous, was able to persuade school officials, but your parents need to be their for you, right or wrong.

Firefox in school

[kakiller]

i am currently a senior at NDHS (Notre Dame High school) in NJ and my freshmen year they started the pilot program, 1 class of freshmen students purchased HP tablet computers mostly locked down by the tech department to prevent viruses and the like. already having more experience with computers then anyone else in my class immediately found ways around a few of the blocks and soon they opened them up a bit so we could manage them ourselves, well that was fine up until last year (my junior year) when my tablet (an HPTC1100 for those intrested) fell off of my desk and the screen cracked, no big deal it was still covered and fixed for free. but instead of just fixing the screen and not messing with the rest they completely reformatted my hdd and i had to re-install everything... soon after i found an SVChost.exe taking 100% of my cpu, so i brought this to the tech departments attention as it was a problem i had with the loaner computer they had given me while mine was being fixed, and what do they tell me the problem is? "o you installed firefox, spybot search and destroy, and adaware" which all 3 i had been using since my freshmen year with out a problem, and now all the sudden they cause my computer to fail at life... besides telling me to uninstall said programs, how do they tell me to fix it instead of taking action themselves? "give it a week and see how it works" a computer is not a pair of shoes, if there is a problem in a file it is not going to fix itself unless it has a way to fix itself. needless to say i removed myself from my schools network soon after and installed linux, i have not had any problems like that since that i did not cause myself by being an idiot

Re:Firefox in school

[SixFactor]

Glad you're using Linux. I wanted to email you, but as with some Slashdot users (including myself), addresses are held private. I'm not meaning to be a pompous ass, but while your story was interesting, you might want to consider some enhancements that would serve you well in the future, especially when you attend university:

1. Capitalize the first letter of each sentence. This helps the reader's eye know when another thought starts (or is about to start).

2. Use of periods versus commas. Periods alert the reader that the thought is complete. Commas let the reader know when you've completed a clause of a sentence, but also tells him to expect a completing fragment (or fragments) of your thought.

3. Use paragraphs. Again, this helps the reader. I have a friend who is dyslexic, and really needs to see whitespace from time to time so that the letters and words do not run over themselves. Your narrative could have been partitioned into maybe three or four paragraphs. Maybe:

a) brief introduction and being part fo a select group;
b) the event that led to the reformat;
c) the consequences of said action; and
d) your ultimate solution.

Adding HTML breaks is easy, just use the inequalities to bracket "br" (no quotes, though), and voila!, a line is added.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt: you were in a hurry, and heck, this is Slashdot, so no one cares (dem's fightin' words for ya!). These may be true, but the more you practice proper writing, the easier all your challenges will be, regardless of your future field.

Re:Firefox in school

[Actually, I do RTFA]

Did you install Firefox, Ad-Aware and Spybot on the loaner as well (I presume so, because how did Tech Support know?) Maybe one of those was the cause, a new update. I know where I work, I refuse to help people who are running FireFox (while they are running it). Why, because two years ago, FireFox ate up resources and made it look like there was a leak in my software. Or maybe it was a FireFox plugin. Or it could have even been Java. I don't care. FireFox is not a necessity. So if FireFox is running, I don't let you file bug reports.

And yes, when we ship to clients, we often lock down the computers and don't allow them to install other software. Could they do so technically, sure. They have access to an admin account. But then we won't deal with it. There are enough things that can go wrong that anything I can control, I will.

Re:Firefox in school

[kakiller]

no on the loaner i did not install firefox, spybot, or adaware. the first loaner they gave me had a dud hdd that died as soon as i got home, the 2nd one is where i found the problem initially

firefox spybot and adaware were not the sources of the problem, i had been using all 3 for the 3 years i had the computer and never had a problem, even with out them installed the same problem still exsisted in the loaner i remind you. between the 2 installs nothing in the image had changed besides what they updated, and the problem exsisted as soon as i turned the computer on with out even getting a chance to install firefox or anything else

Re:authority figure is a moron

[MBCook]

If he was my kid, he would have deserved what he got. He was right, but he went about it the wrong way, and that's what he was punished for. If he had talked to the teacher after class about this and was given detention for it, then i would agree with you. Interrupting the class was not the way to handle this. No one was being stabbed. No one was dying. No giant lies were being told that needed to be addressed (Nazis were good, the holocaust didn't happen, the government poisons the water with mind control drugs, whatever). He didn't need to escalate to where he did at that time. That is why he was punished.

The fact that the teacher was wrong (probably out of ignorance, if this wasn't a hoax) doesn't give the child license to act like a brat. Blindly defending the child since he was right (that FireFox is the same as IE) is the wrong tact to take here. The idea that you can ignore authority figures just because they are wrong is not the right message. If they are wrong, you talk to them about it. If they won't face facts, then you can eescallate. You don't start there... that just raises brats with no respect.

Scudder? Which Scudder is that?

[mangu]

Scudder, Scudder, where have I seen that name before?

Ah, never mind. Just let me say, that name makes me shudder... [ducks]

Re:OSS is evil. Note the Teacher's Name?

[infonography]

Ok it was blurry in the picture but I could swear it was Mr Ballmer, anybody else see that?

Re:authority figure is a moron

[ascendant]

Debating anything causes both sides to see the arguments of the other. Why did the teacher try to prevent the student from using a better browser? Because he it was some alien software program - he didn't trust it because it's different. People don't generally stand up for something unless it seems logical to at least them.

Too bad if the GP had the unfortunate side effect of breaking down your preconceptions.

Re:authority figure is a moron

[Bastardchyld]

In the military, A commanding officer can order you to drop your pants and shoot yourself in the left testicle too but you have the right to disobey. Especially if the order is stupid, immoral, without merit or could get you into trouble. On always has the right to disobey when the authority figure is a moron.. such is the case here.
Actually in the military you are not allowed to disobey an order simply because it is stupid, immoral, without merit or could get you in trouble. The only situation where a military member can disobey an order is when the order is ILLEGAL. Cut and dried plain and simple. Illegal is not synonomous with stupid, immoral, without merit, or could get you in to trouble (whatever the hell that means).

Furthermore, closing a web browser is not shooting yourself in the left testicle. If the teacher had instructed the student to do that your argument might have merit, but alas reality is nowhere near that.

Bandwidth?

[WPIDalamar]

The poor principal is getting a $$$$ internet bill next month for posting that on his site.

Only a detention?

[Knoarmanne]

Hmm, currently I'm out of high school, in college for that matter, but back in the day I, too, was hounded for using firefox at my school. The only difference being that I was suspended, for three days, because the head of my school's IT department lied through his teeth about how since firefox is OSS, and because of that it poses a security threat to the school. Yeah, ok. I defended myself against the accusation of "having the ability to alter the source code and exploit firefox to gain network control" (the exact wording of what went on file with the suspension, btw) by stating that I had no source code with me, and that the MD5 sums of the .exe I used and the readily available one would be identical. The IT guy's eyes glazed over at the mention of the MD5 sum, he couldn't even explain it to the deans! It's people like that that give IT techs a bad reputation, and moreover I was punished despite having proved that I did nothing wrong. Classic case of "pulling rank" to save face on the Administration's side, they added in a clause on my suspension saying I violated the school's Tech AUP, which was conveniently revised to include what I did while I was serving my suspension... /rant *shrug* sorry to rant, but what I'm saying overall is that though this story was/is a hoax, it happens.

Re:Only a detention?

[stuntpope]

Did you download and install unauthorized software on your school's equipment?

That could get you fired in the work world. Regardless of the merits of the software. I assume your school had an acceptable usage policy for their computers and networks?

Re:Only a detention?

[Knoarmanne]

They did indeed have an AUP for their computers, but they didn't mention anything about installing software, or even running software that wasn't already there. Technically, I was running Firefox from a flash drive, so nothing was installed, but in both cases, nothing in their AUP covered it until_after_I went back to school, as they modified it while I was gone. I'm not saying that I'm completely innocent, I kinda knew that they wouldn't be happy if I was using it, but there was nothing in the AUP at the time that either explicitly stated or alluded to installing/running unapproved software, but that didn't keep them from getting me on it *shrug* that's what irked me about it all.

a better response

[nomadic]

If you are planning on calling the school please refrain from doing so, I'm sure they have had enough excitement for one day.

If you were planning on calling the school, then WHAT THE HELL IS THE MATTER WITH YOU? What possible purpose does that serve? There is no legitimate train of thought that should lead to the decision "I SHOULD CALL THEM."

Re:authority figure is a moron

[AusIV]

If I'm working on a project and have half a dozen tabs open and the teacher tells me to close them immediately, that may set me back 15 minutes of redoing all my searches and finding the sites again in IE. If closing my browser means I'm not going to get a class project done (and subsequently hurt my grade), I'm going to raise an objection now, not wait until after class when it may be too late to get the assignment done.

Re:When I was a kid, I did stupid stuff like this

[evilviper]

I would "correct" what the teacher said [...]
I should have gotten my ass beat for this.

The difference between a very good and a very bad teacher is that the good ones will encourage you to correct them, while the bad ones will discourage corrections.

In High School, I was kicked out of a class for simply changing a screen saver. I was technically breaking the rules, in that everyone was supposed to do EXACTLY what the teacher said, and NOTHING ELSE but sit and drool. Ironically, at the same time, I was completely maintaining the lab in my another computer class, so the teacher didn't have to bother with it. Would you care to guess which was the brainless, incompetent technophobe, and which was the skilled and highly knowledgeable pro? I'm just thankful the 90% idiot vs 10% intelligent teacher ratio was completely reversed, when I went from High School to College.

HOAX

[fireheadca]

I don't believe it.

Wired got the actual truth

[Trerro]

The assignment was to write a resume in a word processor. The kid was given a detention for ignoring the assignment and randomly surfing the web, then mouthing off to the teacher that told him to stop. I don't think that's unreasonable. Now, if he was writing his resume in say... Google docs instead of Word, then all these authority arguments would be relevant. However, he was simply ignoring the assignment and web surfing instead, so there really isn't a whole lot to discuss. He was given an assignment, he chose to ignore it completely, he was warned to stop, and then finally given a detention. I'd say that's both pretty standard and perfectly reasonable (unless he had already finished the assignment and that's why he was surfing... but I doubt that's the case.)
Here's the article explaining this.

Re:Wired got the actual truth

[Trerro]

Errr, oops. Not sure where I got 'resume' from that. It was still a written assignment in a word processor though which did not involve web research. So the above is otherwise correct.

Re:authority figure is a moron

[cp.tar]

I just remembered... I once had an argument about optics with one of the guys who worked on early semi-conductors... later on he told me I was right and that the only reason I lost the argument was:

• A: He was the teacher and
• B: He was the teacher

In school, the teacher is always right, particularly when they're wrong AND foul tempered.

Only last Friday, I heard one of my college professors say: "Wow. I've taught this for twenty years and this has never crossed my mind. You just ruined my beautifully constructed lecture, but this is a perfectly valid interpretation. I've never thought about it in that way."

Of course, I've had some assholes for teachers as well, but generally, I've been lucky: most have been honest enought to admit they were wrong.
I'll probably be a teacher at some point in the future. And I hope I'll be able to admit when I'm wrong.

Re:authority figure is a moron

[ChrisMP1]

As if this was real...

The kid was disobedient and snotty and should be punished for it.

However, the teacher was stupid and ignorant. Ever hear of "the blind leading the blind"? Stupid and ignorant people should not teach, and the teacher should also be punished. People who know nothing about computers should not be in charge of people who are using computers, just as people who know nothing about fire should not teach people how to start one.

Even if it were not a hoax, detention is appropria

[Tweekster]

It would be completely appropriate punishment.

This isnt about politics of OSS, but rather simple control of hardware on their network and making sure it is consistently running.

Guess what can happen in the real world if you do that type of stuff? anywhere from nothing to finding a new job.

Could The School Be Lying?

[HermMunster]

Could the school be lying to keep you from calling and complaining? What seems more likely? The story seems reasonable and the teacher seemed clueless enough. I've had teachers like that. I'd say the school is lying to keep the calls and letters from overwhelming them.

Re:Could The School Be Lying?

[stuntpope]

If the assignment were to be using the Internet for research or whatever, I would say it's more unlikely that a teacher whom everyone is assuming is a techo-idiot would glance at the student's screen, see an appropriate and inoffensive web page, and then *notice* that the application's icons looked different from Internet Explorer's.

In other words, I believe it was a hoax.

Glad it's a hoax, sad it's believable

[Frank T. Lofaro Jr.]

I'm glad it is a hoax, but it is sad that the state of the world is such that it is believable.

P.S. Reminds me of the "Student suspended for using PHP" bbSpot "story". Funny thing is, is that there really is a drug called PHP.

http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/pubs/scheduling.html

It's the first one there. " 1-(1-Phenylcyclohexyl)pyrrolidine 7458 N PCPy, PHP, rolicyclidine", some kind of PCP analogue ironically enough.

Re:authority figure is a moron

[Nazlfrag]

It's a sad state of affairs, I agree. Steiner schools have a decent approach, though they are relatively rare. Your kid should be fine in any school though, it's the parents attitudes to a childs education that are most important.

Next on Slashdot...

[tm2b]

... we'll have a big internet furor over whether a child was unfairly sent to their room. We'll start out assuming that the child was correct when they detail it as "no fair!"

Re:authority figure is a moron

[WilliamX]

I'm guessing you are a teenager?

Part of teaching kids to become adults is teaching them the proper way of handling things. Anyone who thinks you should be teaching kids to disobey anything that they do not agree with simply because they do not see a justification for the instruction, is quite simply being an idiot. If this had been a real situation and not a hoax, the student should have immediately complied, and then later perhaps sought to talk to the teacher and explain his side of the situation. Disobeying in the moment, in front of the entire class, is NEVER the appropriate way to go unless the request being made is clearly unreasonable (such as an order to strip naked in front of the class). There is clearly a distinction between things that are unreasonable and reasonable, and the situation described in this hoax situation is not one where disobediance is a reasonable response.

THE monitoring software

[Smordnys s'regrepsA]

Have you been to a school that doesn't monitor what you do online, or block certain sites? I would be happy to hear about it, but it would be far from the norm.

Re:authority figure is a moron

[WilliamX]

Yeah, what these people who are saying the hypothetical kid did was correct do not understand the logical extension of their positions.

Say the kid was stopped by the police for something he didn't do. He knows he didn't do it, the cop is convinced he did. The cop tells him that he is being detained, and goes to handcuff the kid. Should the kid fight the cop to prevent being handcuffed for suspicion of something he didn't do? No, and if he did, the Tazing, Macing, or ass kicking he would get as a result, not to mention the then VERY VALID charge of resisting arrest, would be entirely justified.

In the described situation in the classroom, you teach the kid to comply with the teacher, and then seek to talk to the teacher in a private discussion and explain what he was doing, to prevent future misunderstandings. The teacher can then check it out with the school's IT staff or others who are entrusted to make those decisions, and if the student is still not happy, then he should continue to comply with the request not to run firefox in class while he goes throughs channels to see if the policy can be changed. That is the responsible way to teach our kids to handle their problems. To teach them that they do not have to obey someone in a position of authority just because they know they are in the right is to teach them the entirely wrong way of resolving things in the real world.

Re:authority figure is a moron

[Miseph]

In this particular hypothetical (since it was a prank, that's what this amounts to), I think it can be safely assumed that anyone using common sense would be able to recognize a web site (particularly if using it was assigned by the person in question), perhaps even to the point that one would have to carefully examine what that specific child was doing in order to even notice the difference between IE logos/UI and Firefox logos/UI which, for all that they are different, are not readily apparent to a casual observer looking from a distance greater than a few feet.

I factoring into my analysis that any individual savvy enough to instantly spot the difference between IE and Firefox viewing the same web page and be able to differentiate them (or at least tell that one was not the other at a glance) should be able to reason out that, while the software, or even UI, being used might be different from what they were expecting, it was clearly bringing them to the same information on the same website and in a very similar way.

In that case, the only reason to discipline the student would be a misguided effort to "save face" and re-assert complete intellectual superiority over the other students rather than simply saying something to the effect of "oh, I thought I saw something else, I must have been mistaken, carry on." which not only avoids extraneous disciplinary action for the child, but also for yourself if/when they DO take it to an administrator or IT staff member... it also serves to not undermine your authority in the first place by making your ignorance a matter of public knowledge.

And no, I do not agree that complying with instructions and then failing to tell them that you have not is inappropriate or disorderly in the slightest, nor is failing to comply with impossible directives. If the student was doing the assigned work, and was not playing a game, then they were in compliance to all the valid instructions, and failed only on the directive to "close the game" which was not open to begin with. Again, anyone savvy enough to actually figure out the name of the program and close enough to actually see it is also, clearly, close enough to see that nothing inappropriate is taking place. Update aside, this was a pretty strong indication that the incident was either a hoax or a gross misrepresentation.

Re:authority figure is a moron

[Hatta]

So basically you call me a teenager and an idiot, and then you call my point unreasonable with no explanation why? Nice ad hominem an argument by assertion there. The only thing that is clearly unreasonable here is the command to stop using firefox.

Re:authority figure is a moron

[WilliamX]

Hmmm, seems to me that I did explain myself. Perhaps you should go back and read my post.

His instruction to stop using firefox was not unreasonable. If he had told him to strip naked, that's unreasonable. Had he told him to strike another student, that's unreasonable. But please explain to me the harm in following the instruction to stop using firefox that makes it warrant immediate disobediance, rather than following simple problem solving skills to resolve the issue in a more appropriate fashion, in a more appropriate method?

Re:Here's his teacher

[macbigot]

"All I did was link to publicly available information. I didn't do anything further with it myself, what others did with it is up to them. If anyone really did abuse it (and I doubt that they did; any looneys would have looked up the info themselves) they will have to live with the consequences, not me." -VJ42

What you did (despite the lame attempt to cast aside responsibility) is to pretend that you aren't aware of 1) the large percentage of people that will skim across this forum and NOT realize that this teacher does not need thousands of hate-letters, 2) that many readers will not care that despite their mob-mentality -- their chastisement of the teacher would not have changed his/her behavior if he/she HAD done something wrong, and that 3) our legal system has fully vetted the "I didn't kill they guy I just left a bunch of guns around his little brother's room and what the kid does with them is his fault, not mine." -- and found it lacking in sound logic.

You are showing a method of rationalizing a witch trial that you believe in burning someone for, but can't support with your own logic -- so you hope others will anonymously carry out the sentence for you.

Shame on you. Whatever your political strip, civilized society does not value anarchy without reason. When there is a punishment without a crime, the punishment becomes the crime, and the leader of the torch-bearing mob the criminal.

You have branded yourself -- so don't get all upset that some readers here have pointed you out.

Re:authority figure is a moron

[Hatta]

What's the harm in asking the kid what he's doing before issuing an ignorant and wrong headed command?

Breakin' the 64s

[Chysn]

When I was in middle school back in the mid-80s, my school had a new computer lab. It consisted of a dozen Commodore PETs with tape drives. I wrote a little machine language program that redirected the IRQ vector to a little timing routine, and after a half hour of seemingly normal operation would fill the screen with boxes and lock the machine up. Before class one day, I loaded this routine into each PET, then went around the room executing the routine on each machine, waiting about five seconds between each one.

Predictably, halfway through the class, the semicircle of PETs started crashing in a semicircle around the room, with my classmates losing all their half-typed BASIC programs.

The computer instructor really got a kick out of it. I got high-fives instead of detention. He was excited for me to explain how it worked.

Re:authority figure is a moron

[WilliamX]

Because to determine if the kid is correct, and that his actions don't present a possible problem, cannot simply be resolved like that in the middle of class.

There was no harm in the student following the VERY reasonable instruction he was given, and then he could have pursued available options AFTER the fact to resolve the issue. Disobedience in the moment is NOT a reasonable course of action for the student, and would CERTAINLY warrant displinary action, and detention is not unreasonable.

Not Surprising

[PopeJM]

I remember back in middle school when I was called out of the middle of class to change a computer's desktop resolution back to 640x480 or something like that because they didn't know how.

Re:more curiouser by the minute ..

[rs232]

"Ok, I spell it out simple for the stupid:"

OK, where is the 'followup/correction/retraction', apart from a mention on the boingboing site I can't find any original source.

Re:authority figure is a moron

[shutdown -p now]

If the teacher cannot admit that he is proven wrong by a student, (s)he is a lousy teacher.

Re:authority figure is a moron

[shutdown -p now]

The kid just wasted class time and acted inappropriately.

Sorry, but this is just plain wrong. It was the teacher who wasted class time, by even bothering to order the kid around when there was no need to.

Re:authority figure is a moron

[orclevegam]

Thanks for the link. That looks very interesting.

Re:Even if it were not a hoax, detention is approp

[Igarden2]

Am I the only one NOT surprised by the knee jerk reactions (pro and con) to this hoax?
Get a life, people. You got sucked in by this one. I wonder how many other snit fits have been triggered by bull on the internet. This was a brilliant hoax. It got you going. Look at all the slather and froth above. Makes me wonder if it is worth reading some of them.
Ok, think up a similarly bogus ploy, but first set up a telemarketing office to receive the irate phone calls. When outraged do-gooders call, tell them that they can help support the freedom of whoever seems victimized by donating to save-the-whatever org.
Just make sure its an off-shore office.

Re:authority figure is a moron

[orclevegam]

The issue here is that there is a very big difference between being told to do something by a cop, and being told to do something by a teacher. Of course we know this didn't happen at this point, but had it happened, depending on how the teacher and the student react completely changes who is at fault. If the teacher told the student to close the program and open the web browser and the student tried to explain that Firefox is a web browser and got detention, then the teacher is in the wrong. If the teacher told the kid that Firefox wasn't approved and that he has to use IE but he continued to argue over it, or started yelling, then the student is wrong. Teachers do not get a free pass on something just because they're ignorant of it. If the teacher doesn't understand something and a student attempts to explain it, it's the duty of that teacher to listen to the student and learn, just as it's the duty of the student to listen and learn from the teacher. The critical distinction here is that the student should listen and learn, not listen and obey, they aren't there to be commanded. Learning is about the free exchange of ideas, and just because the knowledge is trying to pass from the student to the teacher doesn't change that.

Re:authority figure is a moron

[MBCook]

Thanks for the response. I'm glad that someone else here seems to see and agree with my point.

It depends on your district too

[phorm]

A lot of this depends on the district, and the infrastructure. I used to work as a school district tech in a mid-sized city in Western Canada. Pay was decent, and while many teachers were old-fashioned, lazy, or just plain not very bright, a good number of them were still in-touch enough to go by with more recent software/hardware. Did they complain when we switched browsers to firefox, well not so much. Did they complain about openoffice, quite a lot (until the kids figured the software out for them). Did they complain when we moved to a linux-based model... hell yes, but generally before the switch even occurred. Once things actually happened and their POS Pentium-1 Win98 boxes were sent away, there is definitely a noticeable amount of complaining but it was mixed with something of a resigned acceptance on the part of many, and for some there was even a promising interest in something new. In terms of web-based tools usage was definitely superior though, with teachers getting into all sorts of neat thigns.

Now that I've moved to more central-Eastern Canada, I don't work in education anymore. I have been to some of the local schools and I'd say that the state of IT here is very, very sad compared to where I came from. Hopefully by the time I have kids in school things will have improved, or perhaps I'll move back to my hometown. It does seem that larger cities actually have lesser budgets for IT in education, and in general the quality of teaching staff and pay-rate is comparably lesser.

Re:authority figure is a moron

[WilliamX]

If the teacher told the student to close firefox, end of story, close firefox, work the rest out later. There is not time in the middle of a class working on an assignment to explain it to the teacher and get approval, like I said, there is a time and a place for doing that, and the middle of a class is NOT the time.

Re:SLASHDOT SUX0RZ

[eno2001]

What, pray tell, is that ASCII art supposed to be? It looks like Alice the Goon from the Moon (Popeye reference) riding a bike. Were you thinking of something more like this perhaps?

Re:Here's his teacher

[Cernst77]

I like the quote you have on your signature I had so much success in IT with a less than desirable attitude and without a degree during the 90's that I thought I could not possibly lose continuing down the path of "bad attitude" and "no paper credentials" during the 2000's LOL

Re:SLASHDOT SUX0RZ

[eno2001]

Come back when you grow some pubes kid... The name of the game is to get foed by Pudge.

Re:authority figure is a moron

[Hyperspite]

Yes it's true that the kid maybe didn't comply immediately, but assuming all he did was argue his point, the real failing is on the school for not countering his arguments with logical reasons. Schools that only teach because I said so are the worst kind. They should only react with disciplinary measures in the face of malicious or illogical disobedience.