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Navigating a Geek Marriage?
JoeLinux writes "I am soon to marry my true love (a girl! yes! they do exist!). She is a literary geek, whereas I am a gaming/Linux geek. Being the RTFM-style geeks that we are, we have been reading up on marriage, making things work, etc. Unfortunately, all of the references seem to be based around an alpha-male jock and a submissive cheerleader-style wife. A lot of the references to incompatibility in the books don't apply to us (neglect due to interest in sports, etc.). What are some of the pitfalls and successes learned in the course of a more geek-oriented marriage?"
Starting lousy news summer in 3, 2, 1... GO!
A lot of the references to incompatibility in the books don't apply to us (neglect due to interest in sports, etc.).
Sports is an example, not the only cause of neglect. If your girl is a literary geek, she can probably explain this concept to you. Ask her about it when you've finished a gaming or Linux debugging session which prevented you from installing the bookshelf that you promised her 2 weeks ago.
Being in a similar situation, I'd also be interested in hearing suggestions from married geeks with more XP
It is the universe that makes fun of us all.
Neglect due to interest in World of Warcraft.
Intelligent people do not need the kind of rubberstamp advice you find in self-help books. As long you remain honest, open and calm, you are very well off. Not doing stupid thing like playing WoW (ATTN! compare to watching football with you buddies and sipping beer) through your anniversary helps, too.
Don't read books to make your marriage work. Don't ask strangers on slashdot like geeks were some sort of alien race. Get advice from people you know who are already married, parents, relatives -- people you know and trust. And then, relax, ignore it all, as the biggest thing is "different strokes for different folks"/"everyone has to learn for themselves".
Small piece of advice.
We geeks find it hard to "get in touch with our emotional side" sometimes...
Concentrate on enjoying each other's company. Enjoy being with each other. Stop trying to analyse the hell out of it and just ENJOY it :)
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines
Replace every passage in all the marriage books you've read where it says "Sports" - with "gaming/Linux geek" and you'll have exactly the same result.
However, don't believe everything you read! :-)
Email doesn't count.
IAAMG (I'm a married geek), so take my simple advice - Patience, forgiveness, always count to 10.
US-UK-Israel: The real Axis of Evil
Making a marriage work requires three things:
Communication, communication and communication.
Learn how to talk, how to fight, and how to consider the other person, and you'll be fine. Don't try to own your partner and let him/her do things with other people that you can't reasonably do together. Don't be afraid to show your feelings, and talk about little issues before they become big issues. Compromises are inevitable, so don't think of these are a failure on either part.
The single biggest thing that is needed to make a marriage work is simply work. You can't expect a relationship to last without maintenance. Make sure to have time for each other when times are rough, and you'll be fine.
And ultimately, if things eventually stop working, divorce is not really a failure. It's simply an option to be considered if the relationship is hurting either or both parties.
.: Max Romantschuk
That spells the end for this one.
But you'll learn, augment your common sense (It's a super power!), and apply it to marriage 2.0
This is, without a doubt, the worst story I have seen on Slashdot in the many years I have been reading.
AnimePapers.org: Anime Wallpapers Handled With Care
I am an engineer (ME), my wife is an engineer (EE).
We have been married for 15 years now and things are good.
1) I dated non engineers and let me tell you those relationships were more "active" in every sense of the word. But you actually tire of it quite quickly because you are constantly trying to figure things out.
2) The relationship becomes pretty constant since both you are pretty constant people. That is a good thing, but as my wife says NEVER take it for granted. Appreciate each and every day.
3) Be there for each other. I seriously mean this one. Be there for the other person through it all. EVEN if your logic says that the other person is wrong.
4) Support the other person. My wife is a director level manager and I have worked for her. Here in Europe some look at that as being a "wuss". After meeting me people quickly realize I am not a wuss, but there is a stigma associated with it. Though times are changing...
"You can't make a race horse of a pig"
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
How can a literary geek not realize that "(neglect due to interest in sports, etc.)." has an etc. in it?
Neglect due to over fixating on any one thing for a length of time, be it sports, books, linux, gaming, work, hanging out with friends and whatever else might come between you is what they're talking about.
When reading those kinds of books and articles, don't think "This doesn't apply to me because $reason" think "what would make this apply to me"
Geez ... and you guys call yourselves geeks?
This site use to be a fairly good site to read multiple times a day for fairly serious tech/computing articles.
The half-assed coding for the site and these idiotic 'Hi, I'm looking for advice...' crap just screams 'We just don't give a shit anymore'.
Sure there are still a few 300+ post articles now and then but the post count on stories appears to keep dropping more and more and the site ranking for Slashdot is on a steady decline.
It's too bad there is no single replacement for Slashdot. This place is toast.
You don't need books to read about how a marriage works.
Believe me, all you need is love for your spouse and respect for each other. If you both have that, any problems (yep, don't believe anyone telling you that a marriage doesnt have its rainy days!), can and will be solved.
Don't look into books, look into yourself, and your partner as the most cherished person in the world. That's all.
Hey, worked for my 20 years of marriage, lol!
http://www.automatiq.se
1. All good things come in cycles. Don't try to force things to always be exciting (or mellow), happy (or existential), close (or distant). Enjoy the ups and downs and you will always be fulfilled. 'Need' one or the other and you will never find what you are looking for.
2. Your deepest personal meaning (for both of you) is not tied to either literature or technology. Go find it together. Create shared meaning rather than simply expressing, in one direction at a time, your individual meaning.
3. Care about only a few, really important things; and let everything else go completely by the wayside. She moves her laptop around with abandon, not realizing how that affects the MTBF of the hard drive? You pronounce Goethe as if it rhymes with 'both'? Fuck it.
4. Get more attractive over time. I'm serious. Be a great investment, not a depreciating one, for each other. Join a gym. Do more cardio. Dress better. Release that hilarious, social personality inside you. Chris Rock said it best: In the first three months of a relationship, you're not you; you're the ambassador of you. He meant that you're at your best in the honeymoon, and then you let the belly hang out. Prove him wrong.
marriage is not for you
The first rule of seeking relationship advice on Slashdot:
1. Do not seek relationship advice on Slashdot.
Throw the books into the next garbage bin...
There is all to it, only a minority of marriages/relationships work in that scheme, the rest has been
posted by others alreasy.
One thing I cannot figure out is why all those books are written in those stereotype ways while
most relationships do not work that way anyway.
I'm a gamer / geek who is married to a wife with a university degree in german studies and
/.-comments. For our marriage, permanent :-). This takes the
literature.
There is no recipe that could be quoted in books or
communication is the most important key. We talk (even when both are travelling due to our
jobs) at leat an hour per day. Beyond that it is helpful, that we both don't loose our humor in
difficult situations: e.g. we agreed beforehand, that everything that ever happens will be my fault.
So by now if something happens, i even claim my privilege to be the guilty party
sting out of any discussion, whos fault it may be.
CU & good luck!
My experience: 1. Find out what's important to HER. For instance, birthdays never seemed a big deal to me, but she likes a little bit of a celebration -- nothing fancy, mind, but a few ribbons here & there. 2. Listen beyond the words. Something that doesn't usually bother her might get to her sometimes; find out why she was unhappy to start with. Work, relationship, family, ...
3. Do something unexpected and nice once in a while.
4. Trust her. I know it sounds obvious, but I was hesitant to tell her about some things first. I did, anyway, and eventually found that it's much less a big deal when you're in it together.
Good luck!
I think you're already a leg-up on many other marriages. Obviously, you've talked about your union in detail. That's it -- communication. Just like kids, there are no guides or books to follow.
That said, my only piece of advice to you (which I would give to any married couple) is to make sure you have some "me" time. You can't possible enjoy everything together, all the time, 24/7. If your wife likes absolutely everything you do/eat/say, you didn't marry a woman --- you married a fembot. Take some time to explore an interest on your own, and encourage her to do the same.
I'd guess that you being a Linux geek and she being a literary geek won't have much effect on your marriage. Other things, such as what you each expect from marriage, how you communicate (or whether you communicate at all!), how considerate each is of the other's needs, and so on, are more important. Forget the marriage/relationship books. They're pretty useless, and for the most part sell well because lots of people think that there can be manual for everything. It's not true; some things you just have to learn by doing. I've been happily married for 15 years. It takes patience and work to get through rough spots, but the good times make all that more than worth it.
Don't live by books, live by your brain. Books can help provide inspiration but you're not stupid... your brain knows if/when there's something wrong and how to fix it. People normally run off and cry to their friends in order to be told what they already knew. You know this. You know if the marriage is working or not. You know if you want to / need to work at it or not. To be honest, a marriage you need to "work at" in any way probably wasn't started on the best footing ("I don't really love you any more, darling, but let's work at it"? It's almost like saying "I don't find you sexually attractive any more but let's keep trying and see if I can keep it up" - Oh, and marriages based on sex aren't really marriages).
Ignore therapists, books, courses, "relationship counselling" (Yeurk!), all the other nonsense... live your lives together and be happy for as long as you both can and, if you can't, see what can be done to fix it. Sometimes that means divorce is actually the best way to find happiness for you both... so be it.
"I'm doing this because I read it in a book" comes nowhere near "I'm doing this because I want to make you happy".
Now run off and enjoy married life with your geek girl, you lucky sod.
wow, asking for relationship/advice about girls on slashdot? talk about going to the wrong place... seriously though, the best thing you can do to ensure a happy marraige is to at least make an attempt to work out some of the difficult issues before you actually get married... Do you or your GF have any annoying/disgusting habits: (weird laugh, make noises, leave toenail clippings around, etc..) those sorts of things tend to be ignored in the beginning when things are going well but once your married they can get very irritating very quickly. Secondly, work out basic stuff like finances: how is the money going to be spent and on what, how are you going to pay bills.. and so on... get that sort of stuff worked out before. Finally, I hope you are getting a decent amount of sex now because however much that is, its going to be *less* once you are married. if you arent getting much or any now then you might want to rethink things...
silly geek, a book is not the way to go about this. what motivated you to look at a book anyway??? sounds like you had some hidden doubts and/or insecurities.
basically, it's like this. (a) you are going to get married and be with the person forever, (b) you don't know if you'll be with them forever, but you'll be with them for a while and a while's good enough (and we'll end things amicably if they do end) or (c) you're going to take a rough and tumble through the marriage and then have a horrible divorce.
if you can stand to be around this person for long amounts of time, and also trust this person enough to let him/her do whatever they want when they want (as long as they're not doing someone else) then you should be fine. go with your gut.
There is no stock "off the shelf" marriage; every marriage is self-built, like Linux kernel 0.01.
You must learn to modify the source to fix problems that come up. There is no manual, and although there is a large user community, all of them have different systems, and consequently may give you bad advice. At least you have a co-author to help you.
Here is one piece of advice. Neither of you should play timesink online games, such as MMOs, unless you do it together or set clear boundaries about the times when you will play. Otherwise you or your wife will use those games to escape the marriage when it becomes difficult, and avoiding problems will make them worse.
The tao of democracy: the government you can vote for is not the real government.
Just read the normal books, but when it says "watching sport", read "playing Warcraft".
If you want to know what marriage will be like, just go live with the girl for a year or two. If you get on, if you don't argue, if don't annoy each other, if you can see a future together then go get married. If you can't do this then split up. I really don't understand why any further hyper-analysis is required. Books will dish up all sorts of blanket aphorisms and pat advice but at the end of the day it's up to you and her to make it work, not some stupid book.
Intelligent people do not need the kind of rubberstamp advice you find in self-help books. As long you remain honest, open and calm, you are very well off. Not doing stupid thing like playing WoW (ATTN! compare to watching football with you buddies and sipping beer) through your anniversary helps, too.
I can't second this enough. In the 4.5 years I've been married, the ONLY time we ever ran into any real trouble was when I tried to "manage" information. The excuse you'll typically tell yourself if tempted to do this is that it's to "spare her feelings", "you couldn't cope with it then", or "spare us an unnecessary fight". Those are excuses...the real reason is you don't want to deal with her reaction and the fallout. Don't give in to that temptation. Be honest, and demand honesty from your partner. That, and a good dose of compatabiltiy and love, will take you through just about anything).
The other underlying principle I'd add is: take the attitude that you're a team, and its you against the world--not necessarily in a combative sense, but in a "we stick together" and an economic (perhaps competative) sense. If you do these two things, you'll do well, and weather just about any storm.
There are other obvious guidelines, like not tearing each other down to your friends (even joking about the ball-and-chain will propogate memes that undermine what you have, so don't do it), not engaging in activity that can result in relationship-destroying behavior that you'll regret--like drunken "boy's nights out" in nightclubs or pick-up joints, or my personal favorite: these idiotic bachelor parties/stag dos that people go on right before they tie the knot (talk about laying the groundwork for a divorce before you're even married) ... but these are all common sense things that are directly derived from the two basic principles above: be absolutely honest with each other even when (or more precisely, especially when) it is difficult, and stick together as a team against the inevitable external pressures that the rest of the world will exert (in whatever form it takes, be it economic, cultural, external tempation, vicious inlaws, jealous exes, or whatever).
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
Geek lesson number one - establish your communication protocols.
Er. That's about it really. Anyone who thinks 'true love' can make everything right is wrong. What it really takes is open and honest communication - even about stuff that you might feel uncomfortable bringing up.
How you accomplish this is different for different couples and 'geeky' couples might well handle it differently.
...it could all end in a Geek Tragedy! I'm sorry...
Talk to each other, be open about problems and try to solve them together. Thats most important part.
Alex
Don't be a fool like I was
Don't go into a coma and hope that problems will fix themselves (they don't).
Tell her that she is special (she is).
Get your ass off the computer chair do stuff with her (she wants you to take part in her activities)
Get out of bed when the alarm goes off, shave and make her breakfast, buy her flowers ones in a while.
If you think that marrying a geek is extremely different than a non geek you are dead wrong. I married a geek girl, and I nearly lost her because I thought she was 90% logic and 10% emotions. I was wrong and now 10 years after our marriage I have just gone through the worst summer ever, and have finally realized that she deserves much more than I have been offering her.
I fell into a vegetable state where I was waiting for things (we were fighting a lot) to get better. Some guys watch sports, other play computer games and some do other shit. No matter what one chooses, all these activities boils down to a low activity veggie state where one resigns and hopes things, in some magical way will get better.
After some serious TLR (Total Life re-engineering) I'm back on track and we are rebuilding our relationship now. All it took was for me to realize that my special little geek girl are as all other girls, they need more than pure logic and reasoning, they need complements and they need to feel that they are special in the way only you can make her feel. A male geek and a female geek has as much in common as a male and a female, while a female geek and a "ordinary" female has almost everything in common.
:/
In the U.S. 58% of marriages end in divorce. And of the remaining 42%, my guess is that at least half of them become loveless marriages, with the two people being miserable and staying together for various reasons (e.g. financial considerations, "we have to think of the kids", "what will my family say?", "what will I do if I'm alone?", "divorce is against my religion").
So you're entering an arrangement with an over 75% chance of failure, one way or another. Why would a sensible person do that? "Geeks" are supposedly smart people. Marriage is an outdated institution (its origins are in property relations, it was a way for families to merge their property and wealth). If two people love each other, they'll be together, regardless of whether it's officially sanctioned by the state.
But be careful. It's perhaps even easier to fall out of love than it is to fall in love. And when it happens (as it most likely will), it's easier to get out of when you don't have all the legal crap to go through.
As a geek couple, I can say after 12 + years there are certain real pitfalls.
This may vary for you, but here's a few key items:
Your intellect can be very clever at making up lies, hiding what you really feel, and it basically just gets in the way. This hiding and dissociation from your feelings can take different forms. If you're the kind of guy who tries to be nice and tries to be a good partner, then you may find that you hide your natural anger and hide your resentments. Eventually these will bite you hard. If on the other hand you or your partner are basically quite selfish, lack empathy, and lack a basic goodness, then she or you can do the most outrageously selfish things but rationalize them away using your clever intellect. (I know one woman who would cry "sexist" if you said she was behaving badly, on the basis that had she been a man, you'd have complemented him for being "strong" (some people are educated beyond their intelligence)).
So feeling is very important. But what's also important, and this is beyond therapy now... what is also becoming more important for modern couples is that, once you both accept each other as equals (you're not stereotypical gender roles from the 50s), once you accept each other as equals, doesn't mean you are the same. You still have to be a man and she still has to be a woman, otherwise there is no difference between you, and there is no polarity of attraction, and sex and romance will disappear completely. See David Deida's books for a challenging and difficult slap in the face on this subject. Your woman may often act crazy--she is testing you and she wants to feel your masculine ability to be a solidly dependable rock who can stand there and still love her. Once she knows she can trust you to be a rock, she can relax into her feminine side and blossom and be sexy. And this little drama will repeat itself over and over. If you don't want that, get a best friend and forget about romantic partners.
There are at least two things you can do with it -- talking is one of them.
Geek marriage is not that different to any other marriage. Three pointers:
Slashdot - News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters, in ISO-8859-1 Has just realised that beta makes this signature redundant
My wife and I are both geeks (she's an SEO and I'm a DBA) and we just picked something we wanted. We wrote our own non-denominational vows and organised a marriage officer who was happy to perform the ceremony. We found a venue we both liked and did the whole ceremony so that we both enjoyed ourselves. We didn't do a first dance since neither of us are into slow dancing and we skipped stuff like having a wedding cake. In the end after the meal we all sat around outside by the bar chatting with all our friends and drinking and everyone had a great relaxed time celebrating together. Why try conform to an ideal thats not your own?
. . . that will go Greek, then --
Oh, wait. You said GEEk. Sorry. No advice here.
Get a copy of The Sixty Minute Marriage by Rob Parsons. Although aimed at Christians (you don't say if that applies), the large majority of the advice applies to anyone. Highly recommended: Parsons' line of thinking is very clear and logical.
Ydco co
Really? Which books were these? You know, the jock has been out as a male stereotype for over 20 years now, and likewise the cheerleader. Hint: marriage is not about anyone's hobbies or interests, it's about being able to tolerate another person hanging around for the next 40 years. Yup, I just checked and sure as sugar it's a kdawson story. PS stop pretending you're special.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
1) You are equals in the relationship. ...
Balance the things you want to do with the things she wants to do.
2) Have discussions, not arguments.
Going to sleep on an argument is not a good plan, try to make peace - doesn't matter if you won or lost the argument...
3) The odd's of an argument decrease dramatically the more you talk to each other
4)
5) Profit
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Hopefully you'll learn some valuable lessons for your future one(s).
Marriage is like a static group in any RPG. The same basic facts apply.
1. You need goals to achieve anything. You need to achieve things to be happy. If one or more of your group is unhappy, the result will inevitably be dissolution of the group. Set goals early, set them often.
2. Whenever undertaking any task it is important to understand each group member's role. Though not strictly necessary, it is good to have a leadership position to orchestrate any support roles. This position may be shifted around the group based on whatever the scenario requires.
3. Eventually you will reach conflict, it's inevitable. Practice care in participating in conflicts. Attempt to understand all party's grievances and complaints and effect a useful resolution. Submit the proposed resolution to the group and hope for a diplomatic reception.
4. Keep the channels of communication open. Be sure all group members understand and approve of any actions prior to taking them. Nobody wants a Leeroy Jenkins in their group!
5. When you wish for your group to grow, the most important prerequisite is always preparation.
6. As your group grows in numbers, avoid favoritism. All members should be treated with respect and given the assistance they need to become fully useful participants.
7. Members of your group are unlikely to be so exclusively! They may still have close ties to the group or groups that nurtured them. Be sure to respect those ties and even assist in maintaining them.
8. That said, members of the group must understand their priorities. Most successful groups have prioritized with their own goals in mind.
9. Finally, you are not the group. And the group is not you. Sometimes you must focus on your own goals. Always take time to solo and be understanding of the need of others to do the same.
Those are just a few tips on successful grouping in World of Wedcraft. Good luck!
I read the script, and I think it would help my character's motivation if he was on fire. -Bender
Dont make the mistakes my wife and I have. I'm about to begin the paperwork for our divorce.... But here's what I would have changed. My wife and I are both very hermit like people. However, one thing that I found that would later become a HUGE issue, was that we didn't do very much outside of the house away from our computers/books/projects. We sort of fell into being more roommates than lovers. Our Relationship became a combination of the two and not really either at the same time. Coupled with the economic and repeated job losses for both of us. After 3 years, the problems finally stacked up and well the rest is my own business.
If I can give you any useful advice, it would be to keep the communication open, keep doing things together, and when there's a problem bring it out into the open and solve it. I'm a very mellow and conflict avoiding person, and I allowed many things to just go unanswered, later on when things where going to sh*t, it was brought up that I never complained about the things that bothered me. Although I still think that that is actually a good thing I can also see the damage it did to our ability to communicate honestly.
Good luck to you, even with the way things turned our I wouldn't have changed it, my marriage has been some of the happiest years of my life, even if is ending on a low note.
gt
My fiance and I -- epidemiology and engineering PhD students, respectively -- found this classic text helpful:
Kiersy and Bates
Please Understand Me: Character and Temperament Types
http://www.amazon.com/Please-Understand-Me-Character-Temperament/dp/0960695400
Asking for marriage advice on Slashdot... it doesn't get much geekier than that! Congratulations, you've brightened my day! Oh, my $0.02: ask people who have seen many marriages up close, but always from outside: find a priest. A good one. There are plenty.
Why? All other combinations are cowered by a number of "funny" sitcoms on TV. I'm sure you can find one or two that covers your particular type of marriage.
I've been with my parner for a while, still considering the best time to take the next step like you. I have a fairly simple rule of thumb for when it happens though. Marrige is not the be all and end all, it's not the start of the rest of your life, it's the dedication to your partner and a special day for you both.
After marrige, dont let things go stale, dont fall into run of the mill lets do the same crap as always. do anything and everything you want and share the experience with your lover. if you want to play wow togeather through your aniversary because you will both enjoy it, do it! it's not sad it's enjoying your time togeather, screw anyone who refers to any hobbys that you both enjoy as sad because in the end (and i'll sound like my parents here) they are just jelous.
Geekie marriges can hold so much more than many others simply because you are open minded!
Here is a list of stuff both me and my partner enjoy just for the hell of it: WOW (yeah, she just got to L80 with me!! ), watching movies like everyone else, going to the local rock/goth clubs, playing AIRSOFT (yes, she has a L96 sniper rifle and a G36K among others) Tae Kwon do (believe it or not she out ranks me, she's a blackbelt! ETC etc
Just enjoy it!
1. Go geocaching. http://www.geocaching.com/ (be geeky outdoors) .. Outdoors, in nature, no books, no pc just you, your spouse and a gps. This will force you to interact, solve problems together which will teach you to solve YOUR problems together..
2. Do "the mariage course" http://relationshipcentral.org/ It almost ended my marriage but made it stronger in the long run. It is very practical because it is adapted to your needs. there are common theme nights where a subject is explained and then you discuss it together. every couple in our course enjoyed and had benefits from different subjects.
As with the other posts I've seen, Communication is very very important. But, there will be power struggles in a non-dominant marriage, and more than you like to think (especially after you've been together for several years). How to deal with that is non-trivial and non-self-help-book-solvable. But if you're both emotionally stable and adaptable people, you'll find your path through the problem. Just don't let it blindside you.
And then there's kids. Be totally sure you're on the same page about kids from the start. Not just yes/no or how many, but under what set of rules will you raise them, feed them, reprimand/punish them, what privileges will you allow (TV use, bedtimes, outside time requirement/allowances), etc, etc, etc... The subtleties in raising kids (no sugar-coated cereals, must learn a stick-shift before getting a license, etc) are the biggest source of power struggles in our household.
To the "football watching" comments, bah. The problem with going to watch football with the guys (or WoW, whatever) is not a cause, but an effect. It's the result of an unhealthy relationship. How do you cope with losing power struggles that you deeply care about? Because you will lose -- the sooner you accept it, the better. Just admit defeat and go have a beer with the guys and let it go.
Get digital copies of those books, open them with your favorite text editor and do a :
:)
ReplaceAll("sport", "WoW");
ReplaceAll("beer", "Mountain Dew");
ReplaceAll("talking about woman", "techtalk");
ReplaceAll("cars", "computers");
ReplaceAll("espn", "Discovery Channel");
ReplaceAll("Playboy", "torrents");
ReplaceAll("Hustler", "torrents");
There you go. The books will make a lot more sense to you now.
I would read "I Will Never Leave You", by Hugh and Gayle Prather (married something like 45 years now), which they wrote after, during their years as marriage counselors, they noticed a dramatic shift toward increased broken relationships that the participants originally intended to be permanent. One issue it addresses in detail that seems like it could potentially be relevant to you in the future is, What do you do when you seem very compatible but then one or both of you change so you seem not to have much in common anymore? Does it mean you're not "meant to be together" anymore? (Hint: no.)
Can I mod something +1 Scary if it's true but I wish it weren't?
Making a marriage work requires three things:
Communication, communication and communication.
I completely agree.
I find that the great thing about communication is that the more you do it the less often you will fight. Fights are normally just misunderstandings, caused by a lack of communication.
You will fight of course, any couple who tells you they don't is either a lier or in trouble.
Dude, how about a marriage-oriented marriage instead? You're not entering some club, you know.
Honesty is the key. A lot of people will disagree with me there, but if you can't be honest to your effing partner, with whom can you ever be honest then?
When I asked my first girl out, who happens to be my wife now, I told her my views on life and how I wanted and needed a relationship to be (both sexually and not) from the beginning. She happened to agree with what I said. I was honest and she was honest. That's why we've been married for almost four and a half years now and have been together for over seven.
No matter if one of the people involved tends toward submissive or dominant, the important part is that the relationship is built on being equal partners. Equal at least in the right to be happy and get from the relationship what they need. But to make each other happy, one must know what the other needs and what they have trouble dealing with.
I don't know how people can expect to live together for the rest of their lives, ideally, when they don't dare bring up wishes and dreams, fears and basic needs for fear of losing the other. How can people believe that someone whom you're afraid to tell your most important secrets, the things that are such a big part of you, would make a good partner?
The geekyness... what the heck does it matter? Whether you like being called a geek or not, the fact remains that we all have hobbies and interests. Being a geek is merely a label for how widely spread your hobby is (gaming retains its geeky status only through nostalgic means). Can you accept her hobbies? Can she accept yours? If not, you're going to have trouble that has nothing to do with geekyness anyway.
In any argument, if it seems like you're winning, apologize immediately. Robert Heinlein
Give her looks a rating out of 10. Then post that on the fridge. Encourage her to lose some weight to increase her rating. If she objects compare it to levelling up on WoW.
Name her breasts Han and Chewie.
Tell her that everytime you put on your Wedding Ring you hear the voice of Sauron calling you to do evil.
Inform her that her feet are as cute as a hobbits.
When times are rough tell her that you wish you took the blue pill.
Remind her that you are a true geek by not having sex with her unless she accepts money first.
Tell her you hope you both have a kid like Jake Lloyd one day.
I'd disagree with you on those bachelor parties, but then again, only very few people have such a relentless grip on their jealousy as me and my wife do.
I will agree with the honesty, though. You made a good point: Demand it of your partner. In fact, you might have to TEACH it to her in the first place. I married a geek girl, not the cheerleader-type and she still had to be taught that yes, it is okay to tell me the truth, no it will not result in a fight and yes, I do want to hear her opinion.
My wife has had to deal with a mother who thought she had to be like her in order to be an acceptable child. You can imagine how puberty impacted on that relationship, though, so this situation might not necessarily apply to other women. Do not forget, though, that the stereotypes of a beer drinking, football addicted husband and the constantly frustrated and nagging wife come from somewhere. They are so prevalent in our media that, it seems, a lot of girls think that's the way it's supposed to work. Some of them have to literally be retaught.
Just like she will be once a month, so get used to that.
There's one thing that is absolutely crucial and that I can't stress enough for any successful relationship: communication, communication, communication.
Naturally, this also includes openness and honesty. Talk to your partner. If you feel bad about something, discuss it with them. If you feel good about something, discuss it with them, too! Don't ever, EVER lie to your partner (the only exception to this rule is surprise birthday parties). For that matter, don't ever, EVER cheat on your partner; if you feel the need to do things with someone else, talk to them about it, and if they say "no" and want the relationship to stay closed, accept that.
But always communicate. And also make sure that your partner can always communicate with you and be open and honest without having to worry about how you might react. And make sure your partner knows how important it is for you to be able to be open and honest without having to worry about how THEY might react.
...it's never, never, NEVER compromise!!! :-)
"What are some of the pitfalls and successes learned in the course of a more geek-oriented marriage?"
Overanalyzing
I've had (... still have ... in a way such relationships never die) a 16 year relationship with a woman. We have one daughter, 11 years old. My advice on marrige is quite simple: Don't marry. Or marry with a 2-inch thick marriage contract. The simple fact that either of the SOs can walk away, with (nearly) no legal commitments holding them back contributes greatly to respecting each other and acknowledging each others sacrafices that where done for a relationship. And on this aspect of issues i'd like to quote this:
"People who are intensly in Love often forget that for it to last you need to actively maintain it. Emotionally and in your attitude towards your significant other."
Every single day. Don't get me wrong: You can marry, if it is for outside reasons. Maybe you have to marry for tax reasons or because you live in a society where only married couples are accepted. Maybe you or your SO is a federal employee and will have to move to a different state whenever superiors say so and there only are exemptions for married couples. However, what you should do - both of you, at the same time and in the same intensity - is treat each other as if you weren't married. Every day. That's easiest to ensure if you simply don't marry or do so with a thick contract that seals details.
Me and her, we've each had our share of affairs on the side lately and we actually console each other when things get rough or someone of us is lovesick about it. However, we have never lost our respect for one another. I went through a solid stretch of of near flat-out neglegt by her for years, and simply the fact that I knew I could walk out of the door at any time had me stick with her and my responsibilies towards our daughter. If you marry, it should be under circumstances under which you both feel comfortable with your self and are sure that you can give what the other expects of you and what is required to make the others life better than if they were alone.
And if you, after all this advice, *do* marry, *don't* spend huge amounts of money on the wedding. Marry, maybe invite your best friends and families to a dinner or party or something, but don't go into huge dept just for a wedding. The positive effect (bragging rights, etc.) wears of quickly and if that's all your doing it for it's pointless to do anyway. And you get the best marriage effect ('My wife' / 'my husband') anyways.
Congratulations on finding the love of your life and my best wishes to both of you!
My 2 Euros.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
Wow......Nice
The best advice I have to give is to find other married people or people in long term relationships that are heading towards marriage. Single people are alright but they have completely different priorities and if you hang out with them all the time you are pretty much saying to your significant other that you want to be single too. Find other geek couples and do things with them that do not involve sex. Swinging does not work, polyamarous relationships do not work and cheating only works if you are way more clever/intelligent than your significant other. A marriage of equals is a lot more work than a normal relationship, good luck.
An Education is the Font of All Liberty
"(a girl! yes! they do exist!)"
sorry, I cannot believe you.
... So you're getting married on /. or something??....
What kind of analysis is that, is that really how your girlfriend feels? Of course it's important to see the best sides of your mate and being able to appreciate those. But that doesn't mean women, or men, need someone to lookup to.
Please give some reference. I have a very hard time believing in your facts, making it even harder to believe in the conclusion.
Recommended reading for you: Voltairine.
Make her rewrite the Linux Documentation !
It takes 40+ muscles to frown, but only four to extend your arm and bitchslap the motherfucker
Don't forget to peek before you poke.
a) Try to be interested in what she likes, and try to convince her that what you do is interesting (so you increase the overlap), there is a big movement on "using literary content for new games" so you should at least have something to discuss.
b) do you tend to nag ? is she nagging you for this or that... ? it will get worse, deal with it (by running away fast if necessary....)
c) make sure that you both have a geographical zone in your place of living where the other is totally forbidden to comment (if you can't do not marry)
d) try to be nice to each other, which often means : NOT doing anything (if she likes to cook, in most cases cooking yourself is a way to make her wash the dishes, or criticize her meals this is "not nice") (works both way obviously)..
e) speak about "it"...
Good Luck
you'll need it.... (just teasing, we all need it)
So called "geeks" are no different to anyone else. So like anyone else your marriage will be a success if:
1) Your wife has no other man but yourself
2) Your wife should not encourage any other man to make love to her, or kiss or caress her
3) Your wife should remember to kiss and caress you, to honour and obey you and obey your every whim and fancy seven days a week and twice on sundays
4) Your wife should honour your name so that all other women will honour it also
5) Your wife should no provoke you to anger
6) Your wife should not search your pockets or night or annoy you with her hearsays
7) If you are walking in the street with another woman your wife should not shout at you in the street but wait intelligently until you get home where the matter can be dealt with decently.
8) Your wife should neither drink nor smoke
9) Your wife should not commit adultery since if she does she risks forcing you to murder her
10) Your wife should not covet her neighbours dress, nor her shoes, nor her bureau, nor her bed nor her hat nor anything which is hers. Your wife should not call your attention to anything which may be for sale in any stores since you will provide her with everything she needs for her daily purpose.
One thing that I learnt very quickly is that it is worth the effort to set reminders for Birthdays, Wedding-anniversaries, Engagement-anniversaries, Valentines Day et cetera. NOT only on the day itself: 1 month AND 1 week in advance: the month for reservation options for restaurants or gifts that take longer to get, and the 1 week option just in case you somehow did not get to finish the 1-month-idea. And you can just explain that you NEVER would forget $eventfulDay, but somehow are not really good in keeping track of the current date. That she will understand. But you are both German, of is it just you being German, is the wedding taking place in Germany? We Europeans _could_ do with a bit more facts.
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.
The second most important aspect of a lasting love interest is revenge.
You don't have much conscious control over the most important aspect of the relationship, it's practically a cellular thing, so go for number two!
Seriously, the prospect of revenge keeps both players honest in the long run. We've been at it for 21 years - it works!
Don't get a backup wife!
It will hurt you in the long run, both financial and physically (besides it is illegal in some countries). Backup is only a good idea for data.
Carbon based humanoid in training.
My advice, posted as an AC so my girlfriend doesn't find out: Don't do it! Marriage doesn't work. Try a loose "New York"-style relationship where each of you keeps his/her own apartment instead.
Intelligent people do not need the kind of rubberstamp advice you find in self-help books.
Wow, coming from the slashdot crowd, I find this really amazing.
One of the things that kick off problems in a marriage is the "better-than you" attitude.
I find it funny how the guys that tell you "do not read books about good marriage!" proceed to WRITE a whole page of how they think you should proceed, and expect you to follow it.
My "meta"-advice? do both. Check for books, get recommendations on books (a female cousin of mine recommended me three books when I married, I can't remember them unfortunately).
Do however also consult people that seem to have a successful marriage. Or what *you* consider one. (A successful marriage for a CEO may be to leave his wife at home while going on "work" trip to bang other woman). I specially recommend to ask these people after inviting them some alcohol, it helps them loose their tongue.
Last but not least, you should get all the "advice" and "information" you got, lay it on the table along with your beloved one, and talk about what do you (both of you) like and what you don't.
Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
I was married a year ago, and my experience has confirmed what I already had believed: communication is paramount. Honesty and openness is where it is at. My fiancee and I read many books during our engagement, and we found that (for the most part) they were only useful for finding discussion topics.
It sounds like the OP does not currently need specific advice. What might be helpful would be a list of topics that marrying couples should consider, along with something to facilitate discussion. Neglect (parameterized over interests of both groom and bride) is one important issue, but others might include life goals (Are these goals compatible? Do you want to be going in the same direction?) and values of many varieties (financial, religious, child-rearing, etc.). It might serve him well to search himself to see what things he does not want to talk about, or is afraid to discuss. As time passes, these things do not really get easier to bring up.
What I found helps is having two joint checking accounts. Have one with your name first and one with your wife's name first. Use the same bank so you can transfer funds between the accounts easily. Money is one of the most common issues, this gives you each control.
Always take the time to say sorry. Find the a common talking forum to discuss problems. The main failure of a relationship is communication, so find out a way that will allow you to do it amply.
Make it an open casket wedding and you'll be just fine.
Start doing things together. Like playing WoW with her (or any other RPG). Marry in-game. Only then are you allowed to call yourselves real geeks ;)
(but I will anyway.)
No crying.
No getting in touch with your feminine side.
The man's job (geek or otherwise) is the three F's.
Fixing
Freighting
Frickin
The man makes the complex political decisions about whether or not the nation should deploy cruise missiles, bomb anything from orbit, or bail out the banks.
The woman gets to decide what you spend the money on, where you live, how many children to have, where they will be educated, where to go on holiday and anything else not included in the previous sentence.
The hard part:
When the woman makes a remark about something that upsets her you must always resist the temptation to offer a solution. Sympathise.
But most important of all
Be excellent to each other.
Posts, MyBio or Sig, may contain satire, sarcasm, bolded nouns be sardonic or even witty & be Church of SD
Intelligent people do not need the kind of rubberstamp advice you find in self-help books. As long you remain honest, open and calm, you are very well off. Not doing stupid thing like playing WoW (ATTN! compare to watching football with you buddies and sipping beer) through your anniversary helps, too.
I can't second this enough. In the 4.5 years I've been married, the ONLY time we ever ran into any real trouble was when I tried to "manage" information. The excuse you'll typically tell yourself if tempted to do this is that it's to "spare her feelings", "you couldn't cope with it then", or "spare us an unnecessary fight". Those are excuses...the real reason is you don't want to deal with her reaction and the fallout. Don't give in to that temptation. Be honest, and demand honesty from your partner. That, and a good dose of compatabiltiy and love, will take you through just about anything).
What's so bad about not wanting to deal with someone's reaction? I'm sure they don't tell you the sex sucked right after you're done ... just as you probably don't tell them it's the arse that makes them look fat not the jeans.
Small lies, it's what holds relationships together.
Depends. Is it by Arthur Dent?
Geeks as we are my wife and I sat down and discussed about getting married no proposal nothing.
Point is, it saves a lot of taxes!
With the money we could go to vacation or buy geekstuff...and thats about it.
If 2 people are really made for each other, marriage doesn't mean shit...except the financial part, if you have that in your country too. :)
Married or not I'm pretty sure we'll be together for the rest of our lives... no one else would take us anyways
So...just do it, don't get dressed up, dress like you do everyday, and get married.
By avoiding all the meaningless crap surrounding traditional marriage and just marrying because you'll be together anyways...this thing actually got a meaning...I just realized :)
If you two don't fit the traditional gender stereotypes, try reading books for gay/lesbian couples.
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
"but in reality a woman with a penis isn't any more attractive to women than it is to men"
You should visit bangkok sometime! :o)
Reading a book about marriage when you plan to get married sounds like a real geek action. I'm surprised that these books are targeted to non-geeks. Don't read a book, just do it. And remember, a marriage only works for you if it works for the other person.
no, I don't have a sig
For my wedding I wrote my own wedding march song with a MOD tracker which composes free open source music. Nobody cared but me, but it was a big deal for me.
Just dont go shopping together
http://xkcd.com/309/
And wait a little with the babies
http://xkcd.com/441/
I married my favorite geek 19 years ago, and here are a few of the things I've learned:
Be considerate.
Shut up and listen when she wants to talk.
Respect her opinion.
She's smarter than you are, get over it.
It's more important to be friends than lovers (sex is fun, but no foundation for a marriage).
Give her the remote before you fall asleep.
If she prefers Windows (or a Mac or a different Linux distro), let it go.
Very few things are important enough to argue with your spouse about.
Money is the biggest marital stressor, to avoid this, live well within your means.
Settle disagreements quickly.
Even geeky girls like tasteful jewelry.
Make time to take her out on a date at least once a week.
Don't be an insensitive clod.
This isn't the sig you're looking for... Move along.
Excellent post. One point I would like to add is - Don't let your ego rule you especially when you are with her. Moreover, when she is angry simply listen to her, accept all accusations without fighting back, as fighting back wont help at all. This seems to work quite well for me. Watch the movie "Revolver" by Guy Ritchie. This movie will teach you everything you need to know about how to control your ego.
The most important part of making a relationship work is simply to do your best to make each other happy. If you are trying to make her happy and she is trying to make you happy then you will both be happy and you will have a successful marriage. If you want advice then here: When you get into an argument just stop, think about what you are arguing about, and if it is worth arguing about. If it is, present your position calmly or the argument will just escalate. Never carry an argument to the next day, if you are arguing in the evening have it solved before you go to bed. If you are both capable of arguing in a rational and compatible fashion the rest is simply about how happy you can make eachother and how much you can make each others lives better and easier.
Not fucking your wife's sister.
My wife and I recently celebrated our 12th wedding anniversary (July 20th - anniversary of the first moon landing :-D ). She's a math and space geek and I'm a computer, ham radio and space geek. We did no special planning, read no manuals, just did it.
Sometimes you have to stop over-analyzing things and just do them!
No matter where you go... there you are.
I think the easiest way to make friction is, if just-works thinks aren't working:
Very, very good advice.
I'm not sure I entirely agree with the last paragraph, provided the first paragraph is properly observed: if you have a history of open honesty (and mutual respect) then there are no hard barriers on behaviour in public - you will both know intuitively what is unacceptable/hurtful/undermining behaviour. Saying that, it's vital to have that well-established foundation of trust and respect before relaxing the rules.
I would add one important piece of advice though: Remember That You Will Both Screw Up. In any close relationship, you will inevitably end up hurting one another from time to time; sometimes in everyday little ways, sometimes in almighty one-off fuck-ups. Patience and forgiveness from both parties are the only medicine for such ills, and when applied liberally and sincerely, the relationship will often be stronger after the fuck-up than before.
Meta will eat itself
Obviously how you approach it depends on the country you live in and the rules, laws and expectations that come from the culture and families you are both marrying into.
The problem with geeky types is that they ofter think there are/should-be rules or tried and tested techniques for doing things. When dealing with other people (apart from the obivousl ones to do with respect and consideration - both ways) there aren't.
For a start, what are your plans for having children? - have you discussed it. How much are your / her family going to be involved? Who's going to give up or continue working? What will you / she do if the partner has an affair - are either of you the jealous type. Don't forget, that people change after marriage (though some, who should: don't). Is the motivation to be married, or to be with the other person (if the latter, why marry at all?). Maybe when you have both sat down and had a full and frank discussion about these, and other topics you will be ready to decide whether ot not to marry.
Finally, remember that when women say "commitment", it frequently means "sacrifice". What are you prepared to give up?
politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
Being alpha male isn't about being a jock, and being a submissive isn't about cheerleader types. Nor are either states of existence negative.
Being an alpha male is just about being a MAN.
Making it work in a relationship is where you are a man and she is a woman. You'll need to be willing to lead and take charge in the relationship and have the emotional strength she can take shelter in. Now, I'm not saying that you treat her like a doorstop; if she has objections or decisions she wants to make, consider/honor them, but until she does make said decisions, lead.
Just go from your gut sans fear, sans second guessing; human beings, and animals, have made relationships work long before cognitive faculties developed. You can too.
If you really need a book, I'd suggest 'The Way of The Superior Man' by David Deida. Yeah, there are concepts in there that don't have a scientific basis; however, it's not a scientific book. It's just a conceptual framework and mindset of looking at the world.
You should have some things you both enjoy together, and some things that are just "your thing."
But actually the biggest problems early on arise not from power issues (you are reading the wrong books), but from money issues and in-laws. Be sure you both have the same attitudes about spending and saving.
I piss off bigots.
At my grandparents' 65th wedding anniversary, my grandfather was asked for the secret to his long marriage. He said, "In any domestic dispute, if it turns out you are right, apologize at once."
Your description of you guys being both RTFM-type geeks makes me think that you guys really need to learn to talk to each other. Communication is, in my experience, everything.
In that regard, allow me suggest a slightly unorthodox source. It is directed at the workplace, and namely manager-direct relationships, so to apply their advices in personal relationships would be ... STUPID. Don't.
But if you try to read between the lines and try to understand the underlying psychological principles, and take it with, not a grain but a frickin' metric TON of salt, you just might find this interesting.
Now, with that caveat out of the way, into the point.
How you communicate (when you aren't paying specific attention to it) is predicated on your basic tendency to look at the world. You will find it easy to communicate with a person with a similar basic tendency as you. Under stress, you may find it difficult to bear when someone is communicating or otherwise behaving with an opposite tendency.
One system of identifying and working with those tendencies is called the DiSC model. Your "RTFM geek" description suggests that you both might be High-D, High-C.
Two High-Ds, tired, under stress, in a conflict, will. tear. each. other. apart. (I'm a High-D, High-I, my wife is High-D, High-C. Trust me, I know.)
The resources? It's a podcast. Here goes:
http://www.manager-tools.com/2006/03/the-d-in-disc
That's the first episode, covering the first, D. You'll find links to the rest of I, C and D there too.
Good luck!
Dude. You're doomed.
If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough.
Everyone's going to have their own bit of advice, and you have to take it all in aggregate and boil it down. Here are my additions to the pot:
1. The most useful thing in all those self-help books, especially for geeks, is the chapters on communication, and specifically active listening. Not only is this useful in marriage but in the workforce too. I suggest the habit called "Seek first to understand, then to be understood" from David Covey's "The Seven Habits of Highly Successful People".
2. The biggest arguments any couple has will be about money, eventually. Even though you make more money as life goes on, life will cost more, so you'll have more disposable income at the beginning. This is a recipe for an explosion a few years in when you have to reign each others' spending in. Fingers get pointed, etc. Learn to track your finances together. Also, each person should have a set amount of money per week to allocate *as they wish* and the other partner can make no comments on its use. As long as everything fits in the budget, no complaints.
3. The biggest realization for me was that if something is bothering you, then *you* have to take action to fix it, or learn to ignore it. For instance, some people complain about stupid things like their partner leaving the toothpaste cap off. You can't change the other person. That bears repeating: YOU CAN'T CHANGE THE OTHER PERSON. Either invent a toothpaste tube with a cap that closes itself, or get his and hers tubes, or just forget about it. Same thing goes with cleaning the house. Typically the female is the one complaining that the male doesn't care about {dirty floors, windows, whatever} and she thinks she can change him if she just keeps nagging him. This is a myth that it's always the female though - it can go the other way. Either way, nagging doesn't work, so you just have to take action and do it. Once *both* people realize that, things go a lot smoother. My saying for this is, "expect little, appreciate much".
Good luck!
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
I suspect that 90% of what you want to figure out has nothing to do with your geek aspects. Having a good marriage take a lot of effort either way.
I've gotten a lot out of these two books:
What Wives Wish their Husbands Knew about Woman
The Five Love Languages (best if both of you read this one).
Also, a few random tips:
For me there's no reason for getting married? What changes do you expect? If none, why do you want to do it?
1) As a geek, you might enjoy Robert Heinlein's suggestions in Time Enough for Love ("the Notebooks of Lazarus Long") for their practicality (plus, he trained as an engineer). Things like "budget the luxuries first"; "rub her feet".
2) Some years ago, I was at a conference with my wife -- we had just recently married, and we thought one session looked particularly interesting. It was called "Making long term relationships work" or something similar. The course began with the leader asking who in the room was in a long term relationship. Nearly every hand went up. He then asked us to go round the room and each say who we were and how long we'd been in our relationship. We were par for the course in saying we'd been together for five years and had just got married. The final person in the room answered by saying she wasn't sure if she could really claim to be in a long-term relationship... her husband had died last year after 54 years of marriage. At which point, the course leader turned to the rest of us and said "*That* is a long-term relationship. *That* is the timescale on which you should be looking to make things work. It requires a completely different perspective from how you would normally tend to think about things. How will you survive tragedy? How will you be a parent to your thirty-year old child? What will tie you together with your partner on a permanent basis, no matter the insults flung at it?" It goes beyond learning how to get along, or manage money, or put the lid on the toothpaste -- it's about finding a way to get to 80 together. It's tough, but one of the most worthwhile things you could ever do. Good luck!
Consult experts, those who have been married several times. You know how repetition sets the learning experience.
Oh Yeah. Have lots of sex. And explore sexual frontiers together. It is not what you do today. It is about what you look forward to tomorrow.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned here is what scientists refer to as 'the two body problem.' This is when both you and your wife have careers in science/technology, which may be hard to find in the same location, or may be prone to moving (like a partner in grad school, who will be looking for post-docs, then a teaching positions...all of those steps probably require a location shift). This is mainly applied to jobs in the academic realms, but it can apply to any couple that are both working in positions which might be hard to come by together.
So one thing you should ask yourself (and perhaps talk about with the wife to be), is what would you do if a fantastic job opportunity came up somewhere, or the natural progression of your employment at a location ended? Would you give up your job to move to where she could find work? Would she do the same for you? There are no 'right' or 'wrong' answers to the questions, just the agreements that you come to together. It can be done though (My wife and I have been doing it, and its been hectic at some times, but if you work hard, it always works out).
Best of luck!
There's a good book by comedian Ian Coburn called "God is a Woman". It's more about dating (it's kind of like the "PUA" stuff, for people who aren't assholes), but there's one good bit of advice in there relating to marriage, which Coburn got from talking to other comedians who were married (he says you get to know people pretty well on the road).
The advice was: before you get married, make sure you've talked about 3 things: money, sex and kids.
Money is probably fairly obvious, as is sex (according to the book, a lot of woman intend to change things in the bedroom once they're married). Talking about kids is not just talking about whether you'll have them, and how many, but how you'll raise them. These all kind of seem like obvious (and important) things to discuss, but you can bet a lot of people never bring them up.
s/sports/warcraft/ and problem solved.
I agree with most of what's been posted. You seem to already have a leg up on "non-geeks" by being who you are. I learned the following two things after I turned 30. (1) "Validate her:" basically in the middle of an argument, paraphrase back to her what you think she is saying (not what you think of what she is saying). This has an awesome disarming effect on her, and it will give you her perspective. (2) Pick your battles. There are some arguments that you will never win. It's not always about who makes more sense.
And, specifically don't do the following costly mistakes:
1- Don't cite statistics about divorce or break up rate, no matter how useful or reasonable such a citation might seem TO YOU. Two months into my relationship with my current fiance I told her that the statistical probability of people who have been dating for two months (like us) to end up together on the long run is slim. Nevermind that I was using that statistic as an example why people SHOULDN'T be complacent and that men should not take women for granted. All SHE HEARD was me saying that I don't think that we stand a chance together. This was the first occasion where I realized the awesome power of tips (1) and (2) above.
2- If she flirtingly asks you to say something nice to her, never ever EVER tell her that she is the SECOND prettiest girl you know especially if you really believe that. It turns out that truth does not add force to a compliment (#1 girl was an older married chick that was realistically never in my reach). As a guy, I'd be very happy if a girl - especially the one I'm asking to marry me - would say that to me. Being number two after an unattainable guy like Brad Pitt type is pretty good to me. Well, no... they don't see it that way.
We recently got married. We utilized some very good resources. One of the best we recommend was "How to save your marriage before it starts" - which initiates dialog with your partner over key issues; to make sure when things come up you are on the same page.
There are certain things that are okay to hide, some things that aren't. An example I heard in my Marriage & Family class of the former was during a honeymoon between a man that almost married someone else and a woman that really didn't almost marry anyone else. She snuggled up to him on the beach and asked what he was thinking about, and he answered that he was thinking about what his life would've been like had he married the other woman. Things got cool for a few days that week. A better answer? "I am so glad I married you," the conclusion of his thought. Not a lie, but also a better answer.
I think honesty about little things is incredibly important. Dishonesty about little things ("How have you been?" "What've you been up to?") is cancerous.
What's this? Another weblog? On transit?
Forget the books. Concentrate on being best friends. All of the advice about "communication" and "compatibility" and "caring" will fall right in line ... if you're best friends.
It has worked for us for 15 years. :)
Cogito, igitur comedam pizza.
The stereotype cast members used in self-help books should have perhaps been an indication that the books weren't aimed at or even necessary to you. I had always figured that anyone with the intellectual wherewithal to use a computer 'most certainly could survive without such "guidance". Where's the fun? Don't you want to troubleshoot your marriage on your own?
But that doesn't make it easier.
The most important lesson I learned was that when male geeks talk, it's to accomplish something, but when my female geek talks, she does not want to accomplish something or have me fix something. She just wants to talk. Just listening without trying to offer solutions is a challenge when you spend your days in task-oriented pursuits...
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
Do you have infinite patience?
Just do the things that made you happen when you were dating. Add to that doing things for each other not because you want to, but because it makes them happy. Never take your spouse, or yourself seriously.
And never go to bed angry, unless it's for sweet sweet angry sex.
I've been married for almost 6 years. We still haven't had our first big fight like everyone says we should.
Two simple words:
"Yes, Dear."
I've been happily married 27 years, thanks to those two little words.
Supposedly there was a study run by a bunch of marriage counselors some years back, looking to prove that couples that actively communicate have the happiest marriages. To their dismay, it turned out that the happiest marriages were the ones where the husband did pretty much whatever the wife told him to do. (One has to assume that the wife doesn't overly abuse her position here.) I don't know if the story is true or not, but it certainly matches my experience, and the experience of most of my happily married friends.
Get dibs on the remote...
Use your head, can't you, use your head,
You're on earth, there's no cure for that - S. Beckett
I have been an Anesthesiologist for 20 years. I have been fascinated when I see 80 year olds who have been married for 50+ years and they still care about each other. Whenever I have a couple like that, who tearfully kiss goodbye before surgery, I ask what the secret is to being married >50 years. The consistant pattern of advice I find is two things: 1) Be easygoing, compromise. 2) Make each other laugh. I don't know how many times I've heard "He makes me laugh" with people who are married >50 years. So do you make her laugh? Does she make you laugh? Is she willing to compromise a little if you want to do something she isn't in to?
Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
I've always said marriage is where decisions become discussions. It is two different people trying to share the same life. It takes work. I think as long as both parties accept this, and mutually work at it, the marriage will go fine. I don't believe a book will help.
I'm a BBS orphan in a blogging world.
- Never go to sleep without resolving a conflict
- Talk to each other, if you have a problem with something, let her know, never go and build something up
- Even after you have got kids, give each other space/time to do things on your own....
Also, I might come from a different culture , but marriage is just throwing a part for your friends to celebrate you two, nothing changes after you are married compared to before.
I married my high school sweetheart (dated through high school, college, got married after we both graduated.) We're both 37 now, still very happy!
We're like you: I graduated with a BA in physics but am now an IT geek, she studied literature then went on to get a Master's in theology.
I didn't realize they had books on marriage. We didn't even consider them. But over the years we realized some important things:
It's a trap!
DON'T DO IT
What?
I'm sure they don't tell you the sex sucked right after you're done ... just as you probably don't tell them it's the arse that makes them look fat not the jeans.
While I agree there can be a time and a place for the honesty. Nothing has improved my sex life with my wife more than being honest when it's boring, bad, or good. It's how you learn what the other person likes. If you're not honest when it's crap, you keep getting the same crap sex over and over. (At least until you get no sex)
Personally, I think that small lies are what slowly tear a relationship apart. They're all the small things that you quietly resent about your partner, and it's there, under the surface, just waiting for a release. So when the bad things happen, all the small lies come to the surface too. Then it's not just one bad argument, it's all the problems that you've been keeping secret all coming out at the same time.
That kind of mindset is likely to annoy the hell out of your wife after a while. Talk to her, ask her what she thinks, tell her when you are feeling a bit confused.
Second. Start listening to her and her signals. Pay attention and try to interpret them, but don't put too much weight on your interpretation until you know what you are doing. Women (and non-geeks) communicate far more with body language than what you might expect, so be prepared for this. This is extremely important, because after a while she WILL expect you to interpret most of her ambiguous communication in the correct way. What she is saying will give you part of what she means, her body language will give you the rest. Understanding her body language will be a signal to her that you care about her enough to pay attention.
Third, don't assume that talking is simply to solve problems or accomplishing something. Your wife will want to talk simply for the joy of talking. Unless you reciprocate and communicate simply for the joy of communicating, you might start drifting apart. And even if she comes to you with a problem, she may only want a bit of sympathy or a friendly ear. You may not be able to solve it, and she doesn't always want you to try.
"What's so bad about not wanting to deal with someone's reaction? I'm sure they don't tell you the sex sucked right after you're done ... just as you probably don't tell them it's the arse that makes them look fat not the jeans. Small lies, it's what holds relationships together" - especially when both sides appreciate the thought that goes into the lies.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Love and Respect.
My wife and I went to a group that discussed successful marriages and the main theme was the difference between men and women. Women love, men respect; so when the woman wants love it can be hard for the man to provide that and vice versa.
It boils down to that when an argument happens the man feels disrectped by the woman's tone or actions and the man reciprocates by being colder and more distant; which further feeds the cycle. One of the example that was given was to take a diet book for example. If the woman gives a man a diet book he doesn't really care, because he doesn't see that as a slight. But that might not be the case if the man gave it to the woman; should could see that as an attack on her appearance, or a rejection of her for who she is right now. But if the woman were to keep pushing the book as opposed to leting the man do what he wanted with it, then that starts to come across as demanding and disrespectful of the man's decisions.
The solution was presented as being the bigger person and realizing whats happening. Saying "I'm sorry. Was what I said unloving/disrepectful?" and then trying to work on those issues. Trying to untie yourself from the cycle and try to discuss it in a calm and loving/respectful way.
The course also talked about the needs of men and women. I found that to be accurate as well. Women need face to face time. If you aren't looking at her, she thinks you aren't paying attention. Men need sholder to sholder time, he may not be talking but he appreciates the company.
The group was a church affiliated group, and the class was based off of http://www.loveandrespect.com/ There are Christian overtones but the basic message was men and women are different, here are ways they are different, and how to handle those differences.
I/O, I/O, its off to disk I go, with a read and a write, and a bit and a byte, I/O, I/O, I/O, I/O
A happy wife is a happy life....
You know, just so she doesn't forget who's boss. Take a lesson from this noble fag:
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/broward/sfl-bso-deputy-arrested-sex-abuse,0,1484852.story
The best way to keep from arguing is to have three separate bank accounts, Yours, Hers, and one for the family. Then set up a budget for where income will go and where bills will be paid for. This will stop tons of fights in their tracks because you won't have to argue over who bought what with who's money.
Also keep at least one separate credit card.
Oh, and seriously get a pre-nup. I am going through the worst divorce and although it wouldn't help in my situation, It may help in reducing some of the lawyer fees because some things are already laid out ahead of time.
Trust me, looking back these are really things you need to do, to protect both of you.
Here's the deal. It doesn't matter if you're alpha-male-jock or whatever other type. What matters is how well you accept one another and how you deal with problems together. Most of the time, it is the woman that finds the man intolerable and not the other way around. (Yeah, there are exceptions of course) Usually, it's something that a guy does or doesn't do that leads to things becoming rocky and unstable at home and it's largely the weakness of the woman who quite literally chooses to not accept it as part of who you are. (There are also exceptions to this as well... should she accept sex, drug or gambling addiction? hell no! should she accept gaming addiction? hell no! should she accept failing to pay the bills because you spent money on geek crap? hell no!)
So putting aside serious detrimental behaviors, if she can't accept that you're a slob or a neat freak, then you shouldn't get married. And let's be clear on what the whole idea of marriage means in the first place. Don't consult a religious leader. Consult a divorce lawyer! If anyone knows what a marriage is REALLY all about, it's an experienced divorce attorney who has assisted in disassembling a marriage and all the things connecting the two people together in a tight relationship. You may find that in this day and age, that marriage is completely obsolete! A limited power of attorney, as it turns out, is all anyone needs unless one of you is from a foreign country. (I firmly believe that marriage is a legally binding agreement that can and will be used against you in a court of law.)
I have also found that some of the most serious sources of troubled marriages stem from the misconceptions of what marriage is or what function it serves. You'd both better be on the same page when it comes to the preconceptions about marriage religiously, socially and legally because they will lead to stupid friction moving forward. Personally, I have no religion and neither does my wife. That takes out 1/3rd of that problem from the start. Socially, we are on the same page. Legally, I'm fully aware since I have been divorced before (and came out on top).
Some people need to not be married at all. Both of you need to do some hard personality analyses on the matter. How do you balance "self vs relationship"? How do you balance "self vs family"? How do you balance "self vs child/ren"? If you favor yourself too much and are mature enough to admit it to yourself, then you probably shouldn't get married at all.
People too often think of marriage in terms of 30 minute situation comedies or two hour romantic comedies. They also too often think of it as a religious and/or social mandate. Get those misconceptions cleared up before you sign those legal documents. I'd say "read the fine print" but there is no fine print!!! Marriage is a bizarre legal construct that is not defined in any one single law anywhere. It's all over the place and frankly most written law is about divorcing if that tells you anything at all.
And even if you have all of the above completely covered, be prepared for changes that occur down the road. Dynamics and roles shift and change... sometimes abruptly and sometimes so gradually, you don't notice. Be flexible and know your limits so that you don't break when things go too far.
I'll tell you what works for me -- I'm ridiculously easy to get along with. I know myself well and have little trouble explaining myself to others while at the same time, I am very accepting of others. It also helps that it is accepted by my wife that I TRULY suck at remembering dates and what day it is. Having forgotten my own birthday on several occasions was all the proof she needed that I am an honestly a forgetful person when it comes to things like that. (And it's not like my birthday would be hard to remember. It's the first of a month! I'm just not that guy.)
Oh yeah, and don't make "the marriage" the thing... not EVER. If "the marriage" was the thing, then you're both chasing something that doesn'
This doesn't necessarily be heeded to as an advice, as every marriage is different and self-help is the best help! This instead can be read as FYI so that you be informed! Good Luck! here you go! You might have lived a world of your own until now, without thinking of anything else other than your avocations. That will get a sea-change when you get married. You will have the need to recognize the other person in every literal sense. * Time is the # 1 himalayan factor in making your marriage work. Ensure you can spend as much time as possible in your early stages so that both get the confidence. Coming out of your current routines will be a big ask, which one will have to manage. * Trust is the # 2 factor that makes your marriage work. Build trust and be trust-able. This goes a long way in making things smoother
1) Learn to "turn off" your need for your particular style of geekery so that you may enjoy hers from time to time, and vice versa.
2) Learn to "turn off" your need for your particular style of geekery to pay attention to your wife - I cannot stress this one enough.
3) Have separate PCs. There is nothing more annoying than being kicked off your computer in the middle of something so that your S.O. can check Facebook or partake in some other inane online task. Separation of workspaces is a good thing.
4) Use your geek powers for good - never install a password sniffer, a network traffic monitor, etc. NEVER snoop in on her email. Trust is essential - if you do not trust her enough to let her keep parts of her life private, then it's not time to get married. I have seen friends' relationships put on the rocks after some "relatively harmless" online flirting was picked up via a web proxy.
5) Don't sweat the small stuff - cliché advice, but important nonetheless. Do not let small annoyances turn into large fights - take a minute to cool off, reassess the situation, and move past your petty gripes. It's a tried and true formula.
6) Go to bed angry, but after giving her a kiss. Sometimes people just need to cool off - If you take the bull by the horns each and every time, you will get gored - it's statistically guaranteed.
7) Don't say "yes, dear". It makes you look like a wimp and it makes her look like a b**ch. Suck it up, put away your pride, and do the things you need to do when asked and you can avoid the need for a "yes dear" 90% of the time.
8) Happy wife, happy life. Keep her happy and she will be open to more of the things that you want. A few bucks here and there for the girly things in life (purses, jewelry, Bath and Body works) and you are home free to buy your $2,000 gaming rig or sports car.
Maybe it's just me, but these things tend to work from what I've seen.
The secret to a long and successful relationship can be found in two words. Yes Dear.
I've been married for 25 years now. Repeat the following until you can say them with utmost sincerity.
* I'm sorry.
* It's all my fault.
* You're right dear.
* I love you.
Remember: You're happy when she's happy. So, make her happy. And don't ever forget her birthday. That's why God invented PDAs.
So when you are reading a book and it doesn't apply to you because it says something like "lack of attention due to sports", keep in mind the root of the problem is "lack of attention", it could be due to sports, or due to raiding the new lvl 80 heroic content in the 3.2 patch, or spending every night trying to get that last ham station of the Islands on the Air award. You are a geek, she is a geek, but you are still both human, and relationships all work pretty much the same thing, and suffer from the same things just some more than others. Finally, this is a relationship, not a new car, instead of reading the books and using your heads, just talk with each other and use your hearts.
I read Slashdot for the headlines, because the headlines, unlike the articles, are usually original and never duplicated
Anonymous Coward writes:
The single best piece of marriage advice I ever heard was "remember to look after the 3 Fs: Finance, F**king, and Fun".
It is the 3rd one that everyone forgets.
I'm sure they don't tell you the sex sucked right after you're done ... just as you probably don't tell them it's the arse that makes them look fat not the jeans.
While I agree there can be a time and a place for the honesty. Nothing has improved my sex life with my wife more than being honest when it's boring, bad, or good. It's how you learn what the other person likes. If you're not honest when it's crap, you keep getting the same crap sex over and over. (At least until you get no sex)
I concur, but I sure don't like such a slap in the face as having an orgasm and then hearing "You know honey, that really sucked. I hope you do better next time"
person a: I feel/believe that (insert simple one topic statement here)
person b: So you feel that (repeat statement as you understand it), is that correct?
person a: Yes/no ( if no, repeat/rephrase statement)
Person b: OK I understand, is there anything else?
repeat with both parties until the issue(s) are all stated. THEN work on resolution. It sounds stupid, but it works. This stuff is covered in any pre-cana course if one is going to be married in a church.
To self: "Now make sure to click 'Post Anonymously'..."
Oops. I mean, if they had useful advice, would they be sitting at the keyboard right now? Oh, other than that: if your very own angel tells you she is going to be found in the bedroom, don't start practicing the accordion few minutes later. Bummer.
...but get married, and then get back to us in five years.
The bottom line is that if you haven't ever lived with her for a minimum of probably three weeks, you have no idea what she is really like, and she wouldn't know that about you, either. The difference between the two of you on that score though is that if she finds out you're not what she expected, she will then start trying to change you.
As far as I'm concerned, monogamy is strictly for people who do not value personal freedom, and who also don't really plan to do anything genuinely worthwhile with their lives. I came to the conclusion a long time ago that where sex is concerned, for men at least, there are only really two viable options; polygamy, or celibacy. So far, I have chosen the latter.
Realise also that as a male in particular, marriage basically boils down to a very simple transaction. You are going to trade personal freedom, (in every respect, not only sexual) and the right to direct your own personal development, for a certain amount of emotional, physical, and sexual gratification. You will also most likely end up trading most of your money for this, as well. The only way monogamy works is if one partner in the relationship voluntarily allows themselves to be subjugated, and don't let yourself be fooled; in most cases, in reality, it's the man. Anyone who tries to tell you that monogamy based on genuine equality can or does exist is lying both to you, and to themselves.
It's up to you, but I'd be smart and avoid it. Monogamy, as I've said, is strictly for the birds. People don't get married to have someone to live with; they get married to make sure they have someone to die with.
When you boil down marriage advice, they all come down to two suggestions: communicate well and don't be selfish. If you master those, you're marriage will work great! Oh and by communicate, I mean face to face.
At your job, when you disagree with others, you might actually be right a large percentage of the time, based on your geeky knowledge of the area.
In marriage, if you marry someone as smart as you (and you should), when you disagree, you'll find you're only right 50% of the time.
Get used to it.
This isn't a hard and fast rule. Just a general guideline.
For a man dating a woman:
If she starts complaining about work/school/friends/family. She is not looking for a solution, but empathy. Don't try and fix the problems, just understand how they make her feel.
For a woman dating a man:
If a man starts complaining about work/school/friends/family then don't try and empathise, he's looking for solutions to problems.
Respect each other and you'll do fine! Have a grand time!
Wherever you go, there you are.
Watch the episode "My Big Fat Geek Wedding"
There are six things that will make your marriage last.
Trust: If having a perfect marriage seems impossible, it is because it is. You have to trust that the person you want to spend your life with loves you and makes decisions with the best of intentions. Always choose to believe the best about your spouse.
Hurry Home: There is never enough time to do everything. Someone will feel left out or neglected. Your time together must be a priority. Sacrifice work, but don't sacrifice your relationship.
Communicate: There is nothing worse than feeling misunderstood by your mate, and nothing better than feeling like he/she knows you. Are you asking yourself "How can I be understood?" Or are you asking yourself "How can I understand?"
Nurture Romance: The power of romance, sex, and intimacy can be a huge ally, or a bitter enemy. All of us have needs, and we need to remind ourselves of that. Remember that your spouse has both physical and emotional needs and always try to meet those needs.
Celebrate Differences: Why do some couples differences pull them apart, but others draw them together? Men and women are very different. Use those differences to complement and SERVE each other. The temptation exists to change your spouse in the name of love, but a better option is to love your spouse, even if they never change. It is crucial to seek to understand and accept each other's differences.
Finish Together: More and more people are putting divorce on the table as an option. One essential thing every marriage needs is security. People need to know that together as a couple, they can work anything out. Take divorce off the table.
Mrs. Caudle's Curtain Lectures by Douglas William Jerrold
Douglas William Jerrold was the son of an actor manager. After some time in the Navy and as an apprentice printer he became a playwright and later a journalist. He was a contemporary and friend of Charles Dickens. As a journalist he worked for Punch magazine in which Mrs Caudle's Curtain Lectures were serialised, to be published in book form in 1846.
Job Caudle, the 'hero' of the book is a Victorian shopkeeper whose wife finds she can only talk to him without interruption in bed. Caudle, who outlives his wife, finds he can no longer sleep easily because of his memory of these 'lectures' and resolves to exorcise his wife's memory by recording the lectures, it seems with a view to future publication for the edification of others. Jerrold's humour shines through this insight into Victorian middle class culture.
http://www.audiopod.ca/audiopod/servlet/AudioPod?ra=RA10&P_5=869
Undetectable Steganography? Yep, there's an app fo
And that book should be "Why Marriages Succeed or Fail" by John Gottman. Its not a geek book, but it was written by a psychologist who has studied marriage and married couples for over 20 years. My wife and I read it and our marriage is stronger for it. I wholly recommend it.
In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.
* this can be either the best or the worst thing you'll do in your lifetime. THINK ABOUT IT CAREFULLY. If there are troubling bits then don't.
* don't assume that because you're married you can stop being nice 'because you've caught her'. She can divorce you, or worse.
* common law marriage. community property. alimony. Look up the laws in your state.
* learn what she likes and do it. don't try to make her like what you do.
* goto amazon.com and get a copy of this book. It explains the expectational differences between the sexes. http://www.amazon.com/Why-Dont-Enough-Women-Love/dp/0671689789/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1249474597&sr=8-1
* figure out how you're going to raise the kids. If you're strict and she's permissive and neither of you will give in then you're headed toward disaster.
* treat her as well as you'd like to be treated. Most people will respond with love if you love them, even if you do it badly.
Good luck!
-- Programming with boost is like building a house with lego. It's a cool but I wouldn't want to live in it
The trick is to continue to work at being in love. Don't take each other for granted, respect each other's opinions, and do small things for each other every day that say "I love you" in both words and deeds. I hope you both have a wonderful future!
Maybe the Mormons had it right, just think of a Beowulf cluster of them...
Watch Battlestar Galactica together instead American Idol. Socializing at Mensa and the Sci Fi club instead of church. Take a weekend trip to the Native American petroglyphs site instead of going to the Indian casino. Fly to a whale-watching cruise instead of a trip to Vegas.
Same but different. Doing "stuff" together. I suspect considerably more "alone time" must be allocated for reading in particular but, otherwise, the underlying relationship dynamics are the same.
With all of our electronic communication these days, I wonder if we've lost the ability to just talk to each other, face to face and with real emotion, not some goofy emoticon.
First thing - get rid of the books about marriage. Most are useless, authored by people who have had real problems and think they can now solve the world's problems. Spend a lot of time with each other and talk - honestly and openly. Your lady may be a literary geek, but she's still a woman, and women respond to verbal communication far better than us knuckle-draggin' males.
It may seem uncomfortable to be that open, but if both of you practice this, you'll not only gain a good marriage partner, you have a new best friend.
== First cross river, then insult alligator.
Driving Like a Geek, The Geek Guide to Not Sucking In Bed, A Geek and His/Her Dog, The Geek's Kitchen Friend, The Geek's Guide to Overcoming Superficial Label Addiction
I dunno if you're a geek or not when you can't figure out how to switch "(neglect due to interest in sports, etc.)" to "(neglect due to interest in Linux/gaming, etc.") Sorry to break your "Geek" heart but you don't need special books because you're a geek.
I hope your marriage works out. Really, I do. I've just had my fill of people that need "Tags" and live their lives around them.
1. Throw out and stop reading the stupid marriage/relationship guides. That alone will put you miles ahead.
2. Instead, pick up a solid conflict resolution book.
The greatest single piece of knowledge I ever learned was in a conflict resolution class in college. It is the Three Argument Rule (I named it that), if you have the exact same argument with resolution three times or more over any period of time, then the argument is NOT actually about what you are arguing about and you need to stop and dig deeper into it. Most relationships (business, love, family, etc.) will have these ongoing arguments that will chip away and wear on things. People continue to fight them out time and time again just to have them rear their ugly heads later. The real argument is ALWAYS something else but coming out as this familiar argument. Both parties knowing this and stopping to figure it out finally and being honest with the REAL issue instantly ends them completely, but they can be difficult or deep-seeded issues so it requires effort. It will change your life though, not just in love but in every aspect.
You're welcome.
http://teasphere.wordpress.com - A little spot of tea
Marriage is something that will have to grow between you two. You two have to figure out what feels right and what doesn't.
This is not something that can be read from a book. So stop trying to find wisdom in books and enjoy!
Don't worry, it's all just 1's and 0's anyway...
it is a sure recipe for disaster.
be honest
you need to be able to talk with your girlfriend/wife on nearly all matters
you need to be able to laugh together, and to laugh about each other
As for fun parties before marriage, that is all up to the comfort level of the people. Such as my wife and I could go to the strip club together man or woman. We are both 100% sure that neither of us want anyone else. Other people aren't that sure, or even comfortable with a naked body, especially in the US.
Mbr> But as far as a great marriage, communication open and honest and all the time. Hold nothing back, and hold no ill feelings when you hear something you didn't want to. Love each other more than you did the day before. as has been said, you are a team and should function like a single unit made up of two parts. Alone time, that is important to everyone. You need your time alone and so does she.
We have a rule not to let the sun go down on an unresolved issue. If it's not worth fixing right then and there, it wasn't worth arguing over in the first place. And if you have an argument, ending it happy. Our last argument ended in a prime rib dinner in a candle lit dining room and the argument was about communication not being as open as it should have been. So, we opened the doors over dinner and had a wonderful night.
Have fun. We play video games, go to museums, watch movies, ride our motorbikes or just relax together. But we have fun together.
Gifts are not only for special occasions. If you see something that you know would make your wife glow, get it. My wife loves See's candy, so out of nowhere I got her a 4lbs box and she loved it. Or a movie she's wanted for a long time. Perhaps a great book that's been on her list for far too long. You don't need a reason to show your wife you love her.
Sex, everyone has different levels and understanding the needs of the other is important. She can't keep up with me so she lets me have my porn collection, and I don't smother her with my man bits. When she's ready, it's business time. When she's not, it's porn time.
My geek wife is strong and has no filter. She'll say it like it is. I have a filter but still tell her how it is. So, be yourself, don't try and change the other person. After all you didn't want to marry the changed person, you wanted to marry the person she is today, and the same for you, don't change. If either one says I love everything about her but this, now if I can change that, they'd be perfect. Wrong. Either you love them for who they are, or you don't.
Be supportive. My wife is pregnant with our first and I didn't realize how much she has done around the house since I've gone back to school. The dishes, laundry, cleaning the house. When she's not feeling well or can't handle the smells of the kitchen, I take up with no ill feelings. I'm there to support her through this great time in our lives. When she can't lift the laundry basket, I carry it for her. When she's sick and feeling down, I'll rub her feet and make her feel better. It comes down to love. If you love her like you should, those things wont be a problem.
I also think every geek is smart enough to know how to handle the situation at hand. You know what you want, and if you're both open you know what the other wants and can make a great marriage from it.
My $0.02
Ben
The answer to this is really simple: Never stop dating. Don't stop doing the things that made her fall for you, don't take her for granted, don't get complacent. As long as she does the same, you're golden.
I haven't checked but I guess the Euro is quite weak on the exchange if thats what I get for 2 of them.
You're entering a marriage, not a "geek" marriage. You might classify yourself as geeks, but you're still human beings with emotions, and share more in common with that alpha male and submissive wife than you realize. There are times when your wife will think you are ignoring her in favor of your interests. There will times when you will discover incompatibilities. All of these times will require open and respectful communication and most importantly, compromise.
Your marriage will work, so long as both of you remember this one, simple fact:
Your spouse's happiness is more important than your own.
If you both work hard to make the other happy, then both of you will have a wonderful marriage. Seriously--it is that simple. It doesn't matter if you are a jock, or not; or if she is a submissive cheerleader, or not. What matters is that you are happy. Period.
Good luck in the future with your marriage!
$> man woman $> Segmentation fault. (Core dumped)
It's been challenging for us, but definitely worthwhile. We've jumped on anything that can be mutually enjoyed, but we also give each other space for the things one enjoys that the other does not. I take one night off a week and disappear into the local coffee shop to do 'deep geekery' (i.e. programming for fun), which helps a lot. Also, being correct in an argument does not necessarily create a win-win situation; sometimes it's a lose:lose. Learning what really needs to be communicated is one of the eternal learning curves, but over time you begin to realize when your spouse wants a breakdown of topic x and when the topic is simply the foil for a deeper issue that needs to be communicated. Depending on what you two are like, 100% may not always be possible. Get as close to that line as possible (hint: if you're comfortable, it's probably not honest enough), but there are some things (history of ex's, for example; knowing that you've known other women and have moved on is often enough, unless there is a compelling, specific reason to go into the lurid details of the past) that usually aren't necessary and weaken the bridges you're building. Don't get too caught up in roles. I never drive the car, and we alternate with child-care when I'm home. We have always made decision making (esp. big decisions) require a unanimous vote. No coercion, no unilateral votes; it requires one to learn to communicate right away, and if a decision can't be settled on we try and find a third option or simply drop it. hope that helps
s/sport/Wow/g
s/beauty salon/library/g
etc...
Specialist Mac support for creative pros, Melbourne
Congrats!
If you want to build a solid foundation with this wonderful person, one way to do it would be by acknowledging that she's a woman, not a "girl". (Unless she's 12, that is.)
Using "girl" instead of "woman" is extremely common but there's a world of difference between the two. Why not use the right word?
Good luck
Start by going to a few marriage councilors. I'm serious. Good marriage counseling is cheaper than a divorce by an order of magnitude and infinitely more helpful. Quite simply, it's a bargain. We went to two difference councilors. One taught us skills and the other ran us through a battery of tests, and then reviewed our weaknesses. Both were informative.
I am a married geek and my sister was married to a geek. Being a geek or a jock or a car salesman are all orthogonal to a challenging marriage. All marriages are challenging to all types of people. You say "spousal sports neglect" has no bearing on your situation, but sports neglect is no different from "lan party neglect." We all do things that segregate us from our spouses in some way because we are different people. A key (there are many keys to making it work) is finding a way to relate to each other across those differences.
Lan party neglect (along with losing job-itis) were contributors to my sister's marriage dissolving. They could never broach that gap in their personalities as he just came to expect her support and understanding for parties lasting till 4:00 AM and pizza boxes and soda cans everywhere the next day. She felt neglected and taken advantage of.
I am not a crafty person, but my wife likes making soaps, etching glassware and such. We went to AFO this past weekend and I opened her eyes to an entirely new realm of crafting. Can she, as an artisan of a certain fashion, replicate trinkets and props from anime? Suddenly one of our differences became another point of connection.
There is no silver bullet to making a marriage work, but there is something that is close. You must manage your marriage expectations. Marriage is not some magical thing that will transform your relationship. All the good and all the bad that existed in your relationship before are still there after getting married. The mind tarnishes the good by thinking a wedding will make the good into spectacular. The mind burnishes the bad by thinking a wedding will make the bad vanish. The tragedy, only the perception of the good and bad in the relationship has changed and a great relationship suddenly seems lackluster in the face of marriage. (Women who have a fairytale view are more susceptible to this than others.) If your relationship is strong enough to get married (and survive the wedding "festivities") it will be as strong afterward, but not magically stronger. Both of you must realize that a wedding will not change the other person.
My wife and I got married at a courthouse. We did not fly to Vegas, we did not have 500 hundred guests and we did not honeymoon in the Mediterranean. I told my wife we could have a wedding or we could have a housewarming party. $30k will buy you a nice wedding, but it also goes a long way towards a prime mortgage down payment or pays the lease on an apartment for a few months. We both want a house, but we will have our wedding at the house warming party. We both think that is fairytale enough.
The cancel button is your friend. Do not hesitate to use it.
If you're not already... (it helped us)
Learn to dance -- as social and sensual as dancing is meant to be, I found it's one of the most geeky activities and one of the most enjoyable ones I've ever experienced. Plus, if you're both geeks you'll soon find yourself mingling with non-geek types.
http://www.23andme.com
an learn as much about each others genetic traits as possible.
Then, assuming things are still in order, relax a bit. Chill out. Live in the moment.
Open up emotionally.
50 things she thinks:
1. Saying "I love you" immediately before, during, or following sex doesn't count.
2. Real men drive stick shift.
3. I will leave if you lie.
4. You are cute in raglan-sleeved T-shirts (two-toned baseball undershirts).
5. I'm convinced I'm pregnant and obsess about it for a minimum of 24 to 48 hours before my period, even when I have no rational reason to think so.
6.I love it when you hug me from behind and whisper in my ear.
7. "Fine" is never an appropriate response when I ask you how I look.
8. Most of the time when I fantasize, it's about you.
9. I'm terrified of becoming my mother, even though I admire her.
10. I get turned on simply seeing that I have an e-mail from you.
11. I expect you to call me.
12. Only rock stars are allowed to wear leather pants.
13. I'm scared of losing my independence.
14. I'm more forgiving of you than I really should be.
15. Oral sex is your get-out-of-the-doghouse-free card. Manolo Blahnik shoes also do the trick.
16. You did something bad. I seem cool with it. I'm not. (See directly above.)
17. If I'm not having sex with you, I'm: a). having a fat day. b). not feeling "connected" to you. c). blackmailing you to get something I want.
18. Shoes determine whether you're fashionable or not.
19. I own a Debbie Gibson CD, and I'm not afraid to use it.
20. When I compare my flabby tummy to a kangaroo pouch, say nothing.
21. A man I love plans the occasional fancy-schmancy dress-up date and impromptu weekend getaways, and he buys my favorite candy in advance when we're just going to the movies.
22. You look hot in hooded clothing items.
23. You should never tell me what to do.
24. If I slept over, you owe me breakfast.
25. My breasts love much licking and sucking.
26. If you ask me out directly, I will say yes.
27. I'm very impressed when you ask for my advice.
28. I'm unimpressed with a man who doesn't take the lead.
29. When in doubt, go with the shirt that matches your eye color.
30. I want to be Madonna.
31. Women get urinary-tract infections easily, so watch (and wash) your fingers.
32. I'm in heaven when you hold my hand.
33. You're sexy when you're shaving, fixing things, wearing a white T-shirt and jeans, driving, eating a peach, holding a baby.
34. I need to hear how you feel about me. Often. Tell me now.
35. Surprises, especially gifts for moi = more loving.
36. I want to be the best thing that ever happened to you--and for you to recognize this.
37. If I'm not feeling loved, I will start looking....
38. Discussion of ex-gf's and ex-bf's should be avoided at all times.
39. I like it when you tell me what you're thinking, even if you don't know yourself.
40. Celebrating our anniversary, even if it's only been a few months, earns major bonus points.
41. I love it when you're sweaty.
42. It's best to consult your gal pals for gift ideas.
43. A lady should always be greeted with kisses.
44. I like porn.
45. I love holding your bum in the palms of my hands.
46. Even nice girls like hushed dirty talk in public.
47. It's cheating as soon as you're doing something with her that you wouldn't want me to see, hear, read...
48. For the record: I'd rather you break up with me than cheat.
49. I remember everything about our relationship.
50. You should know all this and more with-out my telling you.
In my experience marriage books are for people who are on the verge of divorce. Just do it the Linux way: look at what looks good to you and make your marriage fit your wife & you.
For the love of god though read the kid & pregnancy books.
This may sound a bit Sims-y, but get a dishwasher. Our happiness level went up by about 150% when we did.
And no, I am not kidding (though the percentage thing is an estimate).
Seriously. I've never understood the difference between living together and marriage from a practical perspective.
Marriage strikes me as a somewhat anachronistic ownership-contract that is rooted in organized religion, so I don't really understand how two self-proclaimed geeks end up choosing the format unless they'd be forced to.
Can someone comment on this earnestly?
My wife and i have enjoyed 10 years in almost exactly the kind of marriage you are about to enter and it just keeps getting better. We have two rules.
1) You are a team now. Always back up your teammate. It's you and your partner vs. the rest of the world. Nothing should come between you. Not work, not money, not games, not extended family. It's ok for you to disagree, but when you're dealing with the rest of the world it's important to present a united front. You need to know that your partner is there for you and your partner needs to know the same about you. Of course, part of being a good teammate is not forcing your partner into Kobayashi Maru situations. Conversations, not ultimatums.
2) Life is a battlefield. Marriage is your foxhole. Stay in your foxhole. Another foxhole might look tempting, but there's a pretty good chance you're going to get hit if you leave yours.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Marriage is something unique to the people involved. There is no amount of reading that will prepare you for dealing with each other's personal quirks and problems. It's an adventure, on par with learning a new raid boss in WoW when you haven't read any strategies. It's just something you have to work out for yourself and do what you are comfortable with. Don't let social expectations force you or keep you from doing what you want.
Other people here have said some good things. Here's one thing to remember: You have chosen to be in a marriage of equals. Make sure you both remember it, and behave accordingly. Make sure you're not finding that one or the other of you is really the boss. In particular areas of expertise you can have someone dominant. In total, you can't.
One more thing: Marriage councilors are evil, deadly, and incompetent. Or rather, there are definitely such ones out there. You won't know what you've got, and they can screw you. Be very careful before entering into such a situation.
Well first, marriage is nothing more than some legal protections for your relationship and some discounts on insurance/etc... It is basically just like the relationship before except that is is harder and more expensive to leave. In the end a wife/husband is nothing more than a friend who you have sex with. If the sex sucks or you find yourself much more friendly with other woman, then there is a serious problem.
On sexual compatibility, there is a lot. Some people just like you to sink the hole, but other people like other actions. If you don't match there, one partner will either cheat or be very depressed.
On the whole friendship thing. If she likes to read and discuss Geoffrey Chaucer all the time and you like to discuss the tty subsystem of the linux kernel, it's going to be hard to be friends. If you have no middle ground so you enjoy talking to that girl who works next to you at work hacking away new device drivers for her crazy devices more than you enjoy talking to your girlfriend/wife then there is a problem. Presumably the two of you must meet on some middle ground to feel connected...
Neglecting with sports can be anything. If you are working 100 hours a week, then the office is your football. If you are going after extra courses, playing games all night and not spending time with her, pursuing advanced degrees, watching movies, etc. then they are your sports.
The other question is do you live together yet? Married or not stuff changes when you live together. Then all the habits come out. If she likes the house spotless and creates a rule about everything and you are lackadaisical about things that will cause friction. If one of you is OCD and the other isn't then that will cause friction too. For some people even what time to go to bed causes friction. Maybe one is a nigh owl and the other one is a morning lark or however they say. Sometimes a partner gets all crazy when the other doesn't go to bed at the same time. It's little things like that which can add up over time.
And of course there is the obvious stuff. You both want kids, if you aren't the same religion you are tolerant of each other's, you have similar dreams and goals in life for the future, etc... If you don't agree on the big stuff it will end up being a disaster.
geek girl posting ... (OMG, it can't be, on /.???) He's the IT geek, i'm the science geek.
just coming up to our 13th year anniversary (we did have a year -long hiatus at the 5 year mark). The absence made us appreciate each other more. Making sure you don't take your partner for granted, each and every day that you are together, is what's kept us together for the second half of our romance.
that being said, neither of us give a toss about getting married. the relationship is between the two of us, and has nothing to do with the state. :)
good luck. may you love each other for a long time.
[QUOTE]Unfortunately, all of the references seem to be based around an alpha-male jock and a submissive cheerleader-style wife.[/QUOTE]
Maybe the books will work if you try cosplaying the scenario. Just saying...
Murder-suicide.
There's been a lot of "communications is key" sort of responses, and that's true.
But it's true before marriage, too. Explicit, clear communication about what you're expecting from the marriage.
I got married 9 years ago having expressed a strong interest in having children and assuming that would mean in a year or two (I was 30-ish at the time.)
Still no children, because she refused to consider it until she or I jumped through various pointless hoops - her finishing her MBA, then us getting a bigger house. Now she claims she's ready "once she loses some weight." She's 38, I'm slightly older. That clock is ticking.
I'm at the point of wondering if I should just leave her and find a younger woman who wants to have babies, because children was a major motivation for marriage for me. As it is, I'd be roughly 60 when they're graduating from high school and I don't know if that's fair to them or me.
If you have goals in your marriage, make sure you've discussed them, in detail, with timetable, with your future spouse. If your goals are important to you and aren't "in alignment" with her reconsider the marriage.
...and it's still getting better. Two biggest marriage killers: Selfishness and immaturity. Advice: Don't go into marriage just for fun or sex. It has to be based on something deeper than that, because there's always someone else out there who is more fun than you are. Make sure you have life goals in common (children, e.g.) Make sure your beliefs are shared. There's nothing worse than arguing over how to spend money, what political campaigns you are going to donate to, what causes you support, etc. Those are fundamental issues, and you don't want to marry someone with whom you don't share your core beliefs. Marriage is a commitment, not just an extended dating relationship. (You know how tenuous any dating relationship is.) Nothing sucks the wind out of a marriage like the feeling that you could "break up" any day. Marriage was meant to be more than that.
The core of your marriage is the same regardless of whether you're a geek, jock, cheerleader, doctor, unemployed, or whatever. Every person has some core emotional needs; if you meet at least the top three to five of these consistently over the years, you'll be happily married for many years to come. If you don't fill them, someone else will. And it's left to chance whether that person has your marriage's interests at heart or not.
Recommended reading: Anything by Dr. Willard Harley. The keys to affair-proofing your marriage are also the keys to having a happy marriage. Identify your spouse's key emotional needs, fill them consistently, and you're on your way to living a long and happy life together.
It's possible that you may have needs that don't fit into the standard template (Affection, Sexual Fulfillment, Recreational Companionship, Honesty & Openness, Physical Attractiveness, Financial Support, Domestic Support, Family Commitment, Admiration). If you do, identify what those are. Dr. Harley publishes an "Emotional Needs Questionnaire" that's really helpful when doing an inventory of what your principal needs are. You need to have your own met, and meet those of your spouse, to make it successfully.
Qualifications: I'm a geek-guy married to jock-girl, 15 years and counting so far.
--Matt B.
Matthew P. Barnson
I learn what I think when I read what I write
There is no reason to get married. If you're happy together, stay together. Don't get married. Nobody needs the stress or the complication. It's just an institution handed down from our churches of New England. It has no practical role in modern life except to be a giant pain in the ass.
THAT is the geek attitude: read whatever strategy guides, "missing manuals" and other docs that will let you get the most out of the system, look at what works for others, and most of all don't be afraid to experiment!
The both of you already are taking this very seriously, which you should be. I will tell you, that I have been married twice. Once to a geek and once to a non-geek. The non-geek marriage lasted seven years and fizzled out. Part of the reasoning was that we could not find common grounds any longer.
Currently, I have been married two years to a geek and it has been great.
Some advice:
First and foremost, communicate. Open and honest communication. You don't like the way she does something? Fine, just suggest to her that you would do something different. You don't like what she cooks? Tell her. But don't be an ass. I guess I should rephrase this all to be open and honest communication without anger.
Second, make time for each other. Try and do stuff together. Not ALL the time, but on a regular basis. Have a "date" night. If you have kids, get a babysitter. Go see a movie or a concert or have a nice dinner or have a walk in the park or something.
Third, you have your friends, she has hers. Don't forget that. When you get married, sometimes people cut off a lot of contact with nonmarried friends. This can lead to resentments later. Let her go out with the girls sometimes and you can go out with the guys. This philosophy also applies to your time/her time.
Let's see, there's also agree to disagree on things. You each have a right to an opinion. I have heard the "don't go to bed angry" one before, but honestly, it's not relevant. Sometimes, if you have a fight, you both need the night to calm down. Another thing is, know how to tell if one another is mad and how to approach each other. Does she want to talk when she is angry or does she want to be left alone and will let you know when she has calmed down and is ready to talk and vice versa? This falls back to communication. Share in triumphs and share in tradegies, once you are married, you are one and the same. If she has a bad day, be sympathetic. Surprise her once in a while: if she isn't allergic, send her flowers or chocolates at work, if for no other reason than just to say you love her.
There are many things you will learn, some may be pearls of wisdom from books, others may be common sense. The best teachers will be experience and patience. Remember to have plenty of patience. Always.
Congratulations on your impending nuptials.
"Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet." General James Mattis
I get the joke, but can't let this pass. Communication and Commitment. Way too many people go into marriage thinking it's love that will keep us together. HAH! Wait till you can't pay the bills. Suddenly cuddling doesn't quite cut it.
Like any geek the poster is probably looking for, but not directly, some kind of acid test. Here's a suggestion; Borrow a kid for a week. Preferably two or more. Preferably tweens. Two smart people can go very badly wrong if they don't have some kind of Confidence in each other when it comes to decisions about their children. I don't mean that one would do something wrong - that's the easy one to solve. I mean regarding rational choices; Is bedtime 8 or 9 pm? Should a 10 year old have a cell phone? Johnny wants to go to church with his friends, but we're of a different (or no) faith.
Communication, Commitment, Confidence.
Does she have a sister?
Socially, especially in the USA I think more than many countries (others chime in if that's off), marriage is treated as a convenience.... something to do for insurance reasons. Treat marriage for what it is and alternatives for what they are. Marriage is not something to be left, and alternatives for your marriage (once you're in it) should not be an option in almost any case (abuse is an obvious exception... as you are an intelligent person I'll try to leave out obvious statements like that henceforth).
The love you feel now, perhaps giddy, flirtations, spontaneous, WILL change over time. You will relax, some of the excitement and newness will go away (like any gaming console or computer), but it will be replaced (if you take the time to notice and that is KEY) with increased trust, peace, and reliability. This may happen on both sides which is a good thing, but you must recognize it for a good thing. Do not give in to the "I don't feel giddy I am no longer in love or was never in love in the first place" crap that is everywhere. Make it work and it will. Do things, though, to promote that original flirtatious/dating atmosphere (by flirting, dating). The effort you put forth in capturing a mate needs to continue or increase.
Finally, be willing to change. You are not perfect, but neither is she. Try surprises (like taking out the garbage before she asks, or mowing the lawn, or doing some of the chores she hates but naturally has taken on herself, or traditional things like flowers) to help let her know you continue to love her. Lead by example.
Congratulations on the first step. Now get moving and make it work.
the other side of honesty is that people who love each other and have a good relationship still do have fights. It's just that they know how to resolve the disagreements. conflict avoidance will doom a marriage. Learning how to resolve a conflict into a mutually beneficial arrangement is the real sauce to a lasting relationship
The fact that you can even ask such a question on /., makes me wonder!
ok, you have to get to the basics, take the brainless standards used in the manuals... and extrapolate for your relationship....
is your weekly M:TG night going to annoy her?
are you going to spend more time painting miniatures than with her?
is she a trekkie while you're a member of the rebel alliance?
my wife can't stand star trek, and loves harry potter.... i can look passed these faults, because i love her....
if you love her, whatever failings she has, shouldn't matter....
If you want your marriage to last, then you should both find mentors who have long-lasting, healthy, happy marriages.
A couple with similar personalities and family backgrounds, 20 or so years down the road from you would be the best fit. You might have to search at work, professional, social, or religious organizations that one or both of you belong to to find these people. These should not be close family members who see things through a lens of "your side" of any issue, but more likely people you've met after you were already in a serious relationship or married.
Also, if many of friends get divorced down the road, I'd suggest you disassociate with most of them (not necessarily all - I'm not telling you to ditch your best friend). Many of them will give you bad advice tainted by their own bad experiences. Find friends who have healthy, committed, long-lasting marriages to hang out with. I'd also look for mentors who have kids that have turned out the same way as you'd like to see yours.
As with most serious endeavors in your life, supporting mentors and peers will be a huge key to success. Somehow in our culture people get this idea that romance is a deal that you are going to go the distance alone, the truth is that it often requires a lot of support and advice.
In your professional life, you'd try to do the same thing - find other people who have achieved or are working toward similar goals and "network" - to use the modern day term. Of course this works much the same way in every part of your life.
I've heard a quote - "You are the same today as youâ(TM)ll be in five years except for two things, the books you read and the people you meet." from a guy named Charlie T Jones. I know that I am tempted at times to just read the book and then try to do it alone. Whether it be something as simple as building a tree-house for my kids, or as complex as heading up a big project at work, or as daunting as raising a kid with ADD - I've found that finding mentors who've been there and peers who are there can make all the difference in the world.
Come on, geek-loving ladies. Give some input.
www.gaiageek.com
From my experience (having lost a 12 year relationship) and I'm now in a 2 year old one...the big three issues that keep cropping up are money, chores, and sex.
Do you have similar ideas about the value of money and to what degree to save it, to what degree to take risk with it/invest it? Does one person spend almost every penny of their disposable income while the other saves...and thus the burden of buying big items like home repair etc. fall proportionally more on one person than the other? (assuming you proportion expenses relative to individual incomes)
Does one person value a tidy house more than the other? Trust me, if this is the case, you *will* eventually have issues over completely silly things like dishes sitting in the sink. But if you handle the differences early and can see that each person is keeping up with their end of the bargain/compromise, then living with the compromises isn't hard at all. Let the messy person have some space to themselves out of "public" view so the neat person doesn't have to rant that you can't have company over.
The last issue that I can almost guarantee will crop up is the frequency of sex. I one person is always in the mood while the other prefers several weeks between lovemaking....not fun. The person always in the mood feels like they're constantly begging and can get bummed out by all of the rejections. The person who's not in the mood will feel like they're always under assault. Why can't they be left alone for a little while? They're tired of being the fall guy or the one considered not normal.
Never argue to a level more than you actually care about the issue. For example, you don't particularly care what movie you want to see, and she really wants to see another movie, don't argue for your choice that hard. That way, the person that cares about it most decides, and it's a fair method. One of you _will_ be better at arguing than the other (I'm married to a wonderful rpg-geek lawyer, 10 years now) and it's better to set the rules so that they don't win every argument - it's not good for the relationship.
What's really making my marriage easy is a set of 2 pairs of boxing gloves. Anytime i see my wife in a nervous state i put 1 pair of gloves on, i ask her to put hers on and let her hit my blocking gloves for 5-10 mins. It calms us both down and almost all our argues get solved.
To explain: we found out we used to have fights not because there are real issues between us, but because we were both nervous and were looking for a fight. The boxing gloves gets that out of the system and then we are 2 rational people again, that do not have any need for a fight.
First rule in my relationship with my wife is to listen (and understand) what she has to say. I may not be interested in the subject (what color curtains are best for the kitchen dear?), but I listen, respect the question/comment, and respond with my opinion. I also try to look interested!
The best part of our relationship is that she does the same for me....she is certainly not interested in computers, but when I am having some "geek" moment that I need to describe, she listens and responds. More than once I have solved problems simply by describing a problem and listening to her questions.
My parents have been married 50 years by following this advice, and we are over the 15 year hump. Go For it!
Yes I too am a computer geek with a literary geek wife. We've been married for a few years now. In fact we celebrated our 8th anniversary just yesterday. There are basically three rules to keeping a successful marriage of equals. 1. Communication - I know it's a cliche, but it's true. Make sure you're open, honest, and most of all empathic with your wife. You can't just go headlong into a decision without consulting her. She needs to make half the decision. If you both do not come to a consensus then do not take the actions that the decision dictates. 2. Share the duties - This really is a non-issue if this is a marriage of equals, but this is quite important to remember. I'm not saying schedule who cooks dinner on which day, but if chores need to be done at home, take the initiative, write a list and tackle them together. If you see a sink full of dishes, wash them. If you see the garbage overflowing, take it out. I Usually take my kids to school in the morning, while my wife comes home earlier to help take care of them at the end of the day. Don't make her feel like she is the domesticator of your home. Make it both your home by sharing in the responsibility. 3. Keep the fun alive - Know her interests and support her in them. Allow her to do the same with you. Don't take things to seriously, otherwise life itself will be a chore. My wife recently has taken up golf, though I've never hit a round of golf in my life, and never had any interest in it, going out with her to practice driving was actually quite fun. Be spontaneously loving. bring her some flowers once in a while for no apparent reason. Give her a surprise vacation (though this may be a little hard to do, 'cause if she may need to schedule some time off of work). Make her feel like she is the only person in your life who really means anything to you. She'll definitely respond in kind. This really is true for most marriages, but I find that in marriages of equals, this is especially true. Not only does your life run smoother, but you're both a lot happier.
"Small lies, it's what holds relationships together."
Empathy holds a relationship together. It sometimes directs you towards small lies, but that's probably the least important benefit in being empathetic toward your partner.
Just file for divorce now, before you get married. Be sure to get a prenup! Why do I say this? Simple; you missed the point of marriage. If you can't see why you would want to spend the rest of your life with the chick don't marry her... nobody can tell you this! You can't read it anywhere. It's you!! It's her!! I'd say delay for 1 year and ask yourself again.
It sounds lame but..
My Girlfriend and I ( we are getting married in September) both come from non-divorced parents. We have both seen our parents go through rough patches and even though as a kid, you don't see the complete show (since they keep a lot behind the curtains to protect you), it did give as both the idea that marriage is not something you take for granted or should consider lightly. I took us almost 5 years to take the step but we are both confident AND determined that we can and will make this work.
As to many of our friends who's parents didn't make it, we notice they see marriage differently. They have more the "it should go automatically, if not , you should split".. They make fun of use because we see it all "too romantic" while in fact, they just seem to keep the "bail out" handle in their hands at all times. Having this emergency exit in mind, AND the insane idea that in a marriage, everything should come natural, They don't bother to work on their relationship and/or are ready to make a compromise. This has lead to several longer going relationships/marriages (3, 4, 8 years) ending...
So in short: know you want to do this, know it does not come natural. The key is not to find out what you should do to make it work, cause you can't. No book in the world can tell you how you will be thinking about things in , let's say 5 years from now.. your complete view on things can change by any sort of event (meet other pretty girl, have car crash, get sick or even reading a book).. The only thing you need to keep in mind is that as you grow individualy, try to grow together too and never ever forget that it still is something you need to work on..
In my particular case, we do projects together, even tough i'm a boring IT Geek and she is a flashy commercial chick in the banking industry, we find our common ground and play there together once in a while (concerts, books, movies/series).. For the rest, we each keep having our own thing: shopping for her, kernel recompiling for me...
Oh.. and a personal tip: if you want to do geeky projects, 3 things:
A) make sure it works ( they don't like to be locked out cause your domotics system won't open the doors anymore)
B) check with her first ( don't install a "surprise present" carputer in her brand new car. they say the like surprises but they actually don't)
C) let her have her own pc.. wanting to check your e-mails just when you killed your computer system....again.. is just asking for trouble
13+ Years of geek marriage (and still going) brought about these lessons the hard way:
1) For chores around the house: write down a list of what you like to do, what you are neutral with, and what you don't like. That way you don't end up doing chores you don't like just because you should.
2) Views change. Even if you "know" what the other person thinks, verify.
3) Assume that the person's worst characteristics will get worse, and learn how to cope with them. Trying to change someone will only lead to pain and misery.
4) For any life changing events. Don't do it until both parties agree that it is the best choice. Battle it out, knock it out. Spend weeks working it out, but don't "just let it happen". Neither one of you should give up a life and then later say "I did _____ for you and it ruined my life." Both of you agreed it was the best choice. (This one I learned from observation).
Ok, I give up, why you?
I was reading through this comment list and despairing that someone was going to come up with exactly what you said. If I had mod points, I wouldn't have replied :)
I've been married. Twice, now... and I've been divorced twice. The first time around, I married a fellow computer geek. We were far better friends than we were "a couple", and marrying her was a mistake. The simple fact is that there's a certain amount of social weight that gets piled upon you when you get married, and that does wear on a relationship. I don't regret that marriage, but do regret that finally the pressure piled upon us by those around us (family, friends, general social expectations and so forth) tore us apart and even destroyed the friendship we had once shared. In the last few years we tried to rekindle that friendship but found things too hard. My second marriage was to a non-geek and suffered from many of the same problems. I got a son out of the deal, but also ended up split asunder again by social pressures and the fact that her and I just never had enough in common. It wasn't helped by the non-geek in the relationship constantly hounding me for technical support on her laptop... exasperating after dealing with users at work all day... I felt like I never left.
Now, I have a girlfriend. She's also divorced and both of us agree we are NEVER going to marry one another for the simple reason that we'd like to remain as we are; together because we choose to be together, not because some social expectation and contract say we should be together. We both agree that it puts a lot less pressure on a relationship. OK, her mother still encourages us to marry because she's a good Christian woman... but that's the limit of the pressure we get piled upon us. No, I don't get to take advantage of the tax breaks you get for being married... but I earn enough that I was able to soak up the drop in take-home pay after the divorce with minimal lifestyle changes (mostly just doing things like wiping out my credit cards, driving a car that's paid off... things like that).
My girlfriend is also a nice balance; she's an accountant by profession but is still enough of a geek that she flashes a new ROM on her phone periodically because she can... she's looking quite jealously at my AT&T Fuze running Windows Mobile 6.5 right now... ;)
Female geeks tend to be more intelligent and more independent. Their relationships frequently go sideways because their independence causes to refuse to compromise.
There are only three important things to consider.
First. Think of this like programming with ramming with rules. Together you create rules. Dont break them.
Second. Compromise. Successful relationships with independent women fail unless you can compromise. Always establish that you are compromising when it happens. It should never be assumed.
Third. Sex. Never compromise on sex. Humans are hardwired the associate sex and partnering up. When you stop having sex either you are your partner start looking for a new partner. Especially if she is independent. This is Hardwired. If you have friends that are new parents. You can observe this bug in the wild. Offspring tend to end ones sexlife for a while for various medical reasons. If both partners are extremely faithful the only perceived result is some sub-conscience guilt about considering sex from other sources; when they are less faithful its a little crazy how fast they start looking.
There was a female author who wrote a book about how having sex every day for a year had a near miraculous resurrection effect of her almost completely failed marriage. Sex = Not just important to men. Women tend to assume that after you are hitched that sex isnt that important. Maybe that was true in 1920 or 1950 but in 2009? Not even close to true. Any woman who believes that has a divorce to look forward to.
my wife is working on her doctorate in ancient greek history, and I'm posting on /. so you can guess what my proclivities are.
While I don't claim to be the world's leading expert on marriage, my geeky wife and my geeky self have managed to stay together 13 years now and we're still going strong. With that in mind, here are a few things that have saved ME a lot of grief over the years. (And trust me, I learned all of this the hard way.)
1. make time for each other. this sounds obvious, both when my wife and I are both in full-on geek mode (her in her library surrounded by old manuscripts, me in my office surrounded by computers) it can be easy to ignore each other. we schedule time to spend with one another, as terrible as it sounds that we have to schedule it, it really is necessary and that's the only way we remember to do it because we both get sucked into our work to the exclusion of all else.
2. try and find at least one common hobby. I definitely understand how difficult this can be, but make sure you have at least one activity you both like that you can do together. my wife and I play golf together a few times a month, and we go to the gym together a few times a week. sometimes it's a strain on our schedules to do so, but it has to be a priority.
3. this is going to sound exceedingly childish, but it's important: don't forget to make time for intimacy. (that's the grown-up word for fucking). when you have two stressy, busy, career-driven people, it can be really hard to a) make time and b) get in the mood. it can be really easy to laugh this off as silly and then have it edged right out of your schedule, but it only leads to unhappiness on the part of both parties.
4. there will be fighting. prepare for it. no matter how well you get along, you will eventually get pissed off at eachother. this is a fact of life and there's no avoiding it. marriages don't end because people fight, they end because people fight and say things they regret, get too emotional, take out job related frustration on each other, etc. try and see things from her perspective and remember that being right is not always more important than being nice. as a left-brained, type A control freak, I had a very bad time wrapping my head around this one. you don't always have to correct people when they are wrong, no matter how tempting, and your wife is no exception.
5. as awful and stereotypical as this sounds, it's generally true that girls tend to be more sensitive, so watch your mouth. it took me a while to realize that my constant joking around (e.g. calling your coworker a retarded douche when he screws up some code, or telling your friend that he's a monstrous blubbery whale when he eats a lot of nachos) was not always received in the lighthearted way in which it was intended. girls tend to take these kinds of things overly seriously, I have no idea why, so tread carefully.
6. money problems plague most marriages. my wife and I keep our money separate to avoid this. we divide up the bills each month and each pay our share, and we take turns buying groceries. while it might seem ridiculous for husband and wife to have totally separate bank accounts, it has saved me and my wife a lot of arguing. we each spend money as we please (none of this "I need to ask my wife first" bullshit) and we each take responsibility for our share of the shared utilities. ALL of the marriages I have personally seen fail failed because of money trouble and the arguing and backstabbing that goes with it.
7. try to have fun with it and don't take anything too seriously, this advice included. good luck!
In Soviet Russia jokes are formulaic and decidedly non-humorous.
Since your into reading the relationship books, the only ones I've found in my 14 years with my wife is "The 5 Love Languages" and it's sister book "The 5 Languages of Apology" by Gary Chapman. Most books read like compilations of Cosmo articles. If you want to hear the superficial, keep reading those. The 2 books I mentioned discuss the essential levels of love and apology. Each personality processes meanings differently. It's real easy for 2 people who speak identical love languages to get along. For those who have different love languages, it is essential to understand how each other interpret love and you will have to work at showing it in a meaningful way for her, and her to you. For instance, my love language is service. When she does something for me, even something small, I'm happy. In return, I am inclined to show love through service. Unfortunately, her language is words of affirmation. It annoys her when I spend a lot of time doing things for her. She flies high when I simply take the time and tell her meaningful compliments and expressions of thanks. As simple as it sounds, in the ranking of things, words of affirmation rank the lowest of the 5 for me so it is really a difficult task for me to do. Now that you see the flow of this, the languages of apology are the same. All I require is an expression of apology. Acknowledge you done me wrong and express that your sorry and I'm good to go. My wife is a restitution personality. If I am going to drink her tea while she is in the bathroom, I better be ready to make her a new cup. These books are written by a Christian author, but there is little theology. Even atheists look to glean wisdom from religious philosophy. Believe what you like, but don't discount these 2 books. Understand them and your on solid ground with your marriage. Check the website and take the quiz to determine which is your language at http://www.fivelovelanguages.com/
I recommend an evening of asking each other questions like these: http://www.bbc.co.uk/relationships/couples/life_questions.shtml it's actually a lot of fun and you learn a bit more about each other!
http://www.loveandrespect.com/
This was an excellent foundation to our marriage. Built on foundations described in the Bible, following the tenents in this series has helped us stay out of trouble.
I've noticed that most of the advice on here pertains to guys alone. The woman has a part in the marriage too. She's supposed to respect her husband unconditionally. The man is supposed to love her unconditionally, a sacrificial love, "as Christ so loved the church."
It's worked out wonderfully for my wife and I, and you don't really need to be a Christian to take the advice to heart.
find ~your -name '*base* | xargs chown
Wow, I'm a linux geek and my wife is a literary/gaming geek. We just got married last year.
From experience:
-- Change "sports" in those books to "games and linux"
-- Do *NOT* install the latest Alpha release of your distro because "it's stable enough"
----- If you *STILL* do the above, be sure you do it on a computer that she doesn't use
-------- If you *STILL* do it on *HER* computer, be sure to show her any and all of the differences.
----------- If you *STILL* don't show her what's new and let her know what's going on, be prepared for no sex / a divorce.
before i got married someone told me, "selfishness is at the root of all marital problems". Keeping that in mind will help a great deal.
"The Proper Care and Feeding of Marriage" by Dr Laura is a great help in developing a lasting marriage.
One of the rabbis my geeky wife and I discussed our then-pending marriage with handed me a sheet entitled The Rules. I remember exactly two of them:
. . .
In the ensuing 18 years, I have found these two rules to be the most accurate advice anyone has ever given me.
But seriously, the main thing to do with your wife is to talk to her and share your feelings, and listen to her when she talks. A very good book on communications between the genders is You Just Don't Understand: Women and Men in Conversation, by Deborah Tannen. The executive summary: When your female partner tells you about a problem, most of the time she wants you to shut up and listen, and not to try and tell her how to fix it. Besides helping me get along with women, the book has also helped me get along better with other men.
In any case, felicitations to you and your geeky honey. Live long and prosper, and be fruitful and multiply.
"Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past." -- George Orwell
First of all, be aware that it is always your fault, and you are wrong. 100%. For whatever reason.
Secondly, if you have kids, kiss your geek hobbies good bye. All I do now is house repair, kid herding, and wife appeasement. I wouldn't trade it for anything, but my home computer is old and neglected. I have games that are years old and still in shrink wrap because I've got more important things to do.
I've been married for about a year, and was in very much the same boat as the OP. I'm a programmer/sysadmin for a small business (I'm co-owner, and we're REALLY small - so I do a bit of everything). My interests are the usual heady mix of RPGs, computer games, painting miniatures, plus guitar playing, cooking and the obligatory taking things apart to see what makes them tick. My wife is an IT trainer at the local university, has an MA in English Lit, and is a semi-pro photographer. We just had our first anniversary, and so far - so good.
The first thing to realize is that marriage advice books are worth reading, but won't apply beyond the general case in most cases (even the jock/submissive cheerleader marriages they seem to target!). We've been through quite a few (as well as a "pre-marital class" - which was actually worth it mostly for the practical advice from people who've already tied the knot), and the commonalities are where the best gems hide; communication, division of responsibility, how to handle disagreements (you WILL have them - it is inevitable unless you are secretly robots), and a lot of the less enjoyable aspects in general.
Before you even get married, make sure the two of you really know one another. I can't stress that enough (and it's a lot easier to walk away crying before you tie the knot, and better for both of you if it wasn't a good idea in the long term). That means being completely honest about your past (and receiving the same); there's usually skeletons in the closet from the past that upset you, patterns of behaviour you need to avoid, things that (not entirely rationally) bother you, key-words that hurt (e.g. "stupid" is an insult I hear a lot in geek circles around here, but it's one of the most upsetting words you can say to my wife due to some bad associations from the past). It's unlikely that you've both managed to never be emotionally scarred, and those scars WILL come back and haunt you both if they aren't dealt with. This is a lot harder than it sounds - you make yourself really vulnerable when you share everything like that. On the other hand, you and your future wife are planning on spending the rest of your lives together, so if you can't be vulnerable to your fiancee now - you may need to wait/rethink (and vice versa).
There's a lot of practical advice that can help with living together, most of it documented. Love isn't enough, you actually have to be able to tolerate each other's lifestyle preferences - and be able to keep up with chores to keep the family home running as well. It really is hard work! Chore distribution (yes, just like in a college flop) is important; in my case, I love cooking, electrical work, keeping the various electronics working - so those were easy. My wife volunteered for laundry (finds it relaxing, oddly enough). We both hate washing up, but I picked that one up in return for not weeding the garden. And so on. We also loosely agreed who the final boss is on various issues. That is to say, just like when running a business, you decide who "owns" various issues. The owner is expected to take reasonable consultations, and try to find a mutually acceptable solution - but ultimately, if there's a disagreement, the "owner" makes a decision - and the team goes with it (even if they don't think it's the right choice!).
Make sure you know how to have an argument without killing one another, or brooding for weeks. That'll kill any marriage FAST. Make sure you both know that it's ok to retreat from an argument when it gets too hot - and discuss it more rationally later (but do NOT let it fester - you do have to have the discussion if you do that!). Try to at least kiss and make up before bed, it sucks sleeping next to someone while you ruminate on how wrong they are - and it's a nice idea to keep your associations with the bedroom positive! Avoid the "key words" that hurt above, don't even joke about divorce (that one's pretty much impossible to take back).
Schedule time together - at least 5 minutes every day, even if you just each
Lead developer, http://wisptools.net
I think what you are looking for is the equal of Peter Norton's "Inside the IBM PC" which gave us a look inside the new-at-the-time computer which is still with us to this day.
Well the best book on the subject is "His Needs, Her Needs" by Dr. Willard F. Harley, Jr.
The author was a marriage counselor who was distressed this his clients usually divorced anyway. He felt he was doing something wrong and started going to conferences and discussing methods with others in his field. He discovered the field's dirty secret - marriage counseling usually doesn't save the marriage.
This led him to begin his own research on what people need from a marriage for it to work. He discovered that generally men need 5 things and women need 5 things. This sounds really simple, but these things tend to be the driving force behind our actions. When she does something, rather than react to her actions, you will realize what the core problem is and be able to deal with it instead.
For me, it was also a book of self-discovery. I didn't really realize what drove me and this book helped me realize why my past relationships failed. I've been pretty happy since.
I have two copies of this book. One copy to loan to friends and another on my non-loan shelf to review from time-to-time.
This book is the best $12 I ever spent and I'd put on my top 10 must-read list.
Place nail here >+
The dude at the Love Lab disagrees. In his research - which is more serious and rigorous than I'm making it out to be - he's found three marriage styles that last, and in which the partners are satisfied. One of the lasting marriage styles involves two partners who desire low communication levels. They have to respect each other for the marriage to last, but they don't have to communicate, communicate, communicate.
Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks.
Well, on the one hand, you want to be in a relationship with someone who you can tell bad news to without fearing that they'll turn on you. If you lose your job, for example, and won't be able to afford a house you both want to buy, a good wife/husband will feel sympathy for you over the loss of employment before they feel angry about not getting the house they want when they want it. If you'd lie about something like that to avoid a blowout, there are several problems that you need to fix before you lay down cash for a ring, the solutions to which might involve breaking things off all together. And from personal experience, the problem could be that you don't have enough faith in the person rather than that they would react badly. Honesty and integrity in this sort of a situation is always the best choice. It's tired but true; honesty is the bedrock of a healthy relationship.
On the other hand, "white lies" are a necessary requirement of a successful relationship. Do you mind skipping happy hour with your boys to paint the mother-in-law's living room? Of course you do! BUT, you say it's no problem and do it anyway because it's the right thing to do. Does your fiancee actually give a shit about football, westerns or Street Fighter IV? Mine sure as hell doesn't! BUT, she pretends to listen because she knows I like talking about those things. (Actually, she's pretty conversant in football, and she likes some westerns, but she's from Texas so she throws the sample off a little. Doesn't like video games other than Super Mario Bros., however.)
At the end of the day it's less about honesty, strictly speaking, than it is about intimacy, and putting each other first, or advocating for each other as a previous poster more succinctly put it. You don't need to tell the big lies to someone who you really trust, and you shouldn't marry someone who you don't feel comfortable with seeing your dirty underwear, metaphorically speaking.
And literally, for that matter.
This unbiased moderation brought to you by the Porcine Aviation Group!
My wife and I (IT geek + Engineering Geek) have been married for just over 20 years. Here are the pearls of wisdom from my Grandfather which will always work: Marriage is NOT a 50/50 deal. If everyone puts in 100%, you will succeed.
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
and you have to explain why you typed 'man mount'
First, before marrying, discuss and make sure you can agree how to handle the following things:
1. Money
2. Religion
3. Children
4. In-laws
Second, make sure that both of you view marriage as a final, irrevocable decision. If either of you keep divorce in your back pocket as an option, then you have two strikes against you.
"Rub her feet." -- L.L.
What I have learned after ten years and three children is that when my wife vents/talks about a problem she just wants me to listen and commiserate. I hear problem and I want to solve it, that is dead wrong. She hears my advice, and instead of help she hears me telling her that she is wrong or she is left feeling belittled.
Trust that she can figure it out for herself, and only offer advice if it is specifically asked for. Other than that just listen and offer an encouraging word/hug/shoulder.
I was just married in June and we had a science fiction theme for our wedding. Everyone was encouraged to dress up in their favorite sci-fi costumes - our 'minister' was a vulcan, our parents were characters from Star Wars, Star Trek, and BSG, and our ring bearer was Dark Helmet. We even had a Jedi battle during the reception.
My wife did most of the planning, and got a lot of ideas from Offbeat Brides. I think the pitfalls are mostly the same as with any other wedding - be sure you book your space early, find a reputable caterer, make sure that everyone's outfit is in order, etc. The worst thing you might come across is friction from your own families about having such a non-traditional wedding. Some people have a real problem with anything but the standard church and white dress. Luckily, both of our immediate families were cool with everything and didn't complain. In the end, everyone had a great time that nobody is likely to forget anytime soon.
Here is a picture of our wedding party.
-- Give me ambiguity or give me something else!
That should be obvious. Whatever the book says, it applies to someone else's situation. Even if you can relate to it, it wasn't written with you in mind. It's terribly inefficient to read a 300 page book for the 10-word nugget of wisdom that might somehow be applicable some day.
Making it work is simple: it's you (the two of you) versus them (the other 8 billion people on the planet). It sounds stupid, but once you get past the warm-fuzzy aspect, marriage is about knowing that you've got someone covering your back. From that standpoint, it's all about making sure that you a.) actually cover the person's back, and b.) make sure that they know that they know you've got their back. In practice, it's not like a military unit, you aren't being shot at (I hope). Covering someone's back might be providing comfort when everything else provides stress, or helping share the risk of a new venture, you get the idea.
Common advice like "never go to bed angry", love one another, etc. are all good, don't get me wrong. But, fundamentally, they boil down to the golden rule (do unto others as you'd have them do unto you and respect each other as you respect yourself), and watching each other's back.
When you have a conflict -- and you will -- don't lose sight of the fact that it's you versus the world, and you versus each other is simply the other team winning at your expense.
Incidentally, there's this thing called sex. Enjoy that part.
As a real live girl I have to tell you that if you ever "let me win" at anything you're history, you patronizing remnant of the jock-cheerleader era! Which I guess is another way of saying, "every relationship is different because it's made up of different people." Trust yourself, your partner and God more than anyone else when it comes to what's right. On the other hand, if you happen to see/hear a piece of advice that seems relevant to you, don't dismiss it just because the social conventions behind it are outdated.
-Yeah, I know it's misspelled. Makes me stand out though, right?
write down all holidays such as your anniversary and her birthday so that you can have an online remembrance service email you a week ahead of time. send her flowers, or some small gift like one of those build a bear things at spaced but seemly completely random intervals. about a month/ month and a half apart.remember to act like you did when you first got together and you will never ever run into a problem with your marriage becoming stagnant. which is the first step towards affairs or divorce.
Well, speaking as the female half of a two-geek marriage (13+ years so far), I'd suggest that the answer is twofold.
You have been together long enough that you're getting married. I'm assuming that you spent a reasonable proportion of that time living together. (if not, then disregard this post!)
First of all, allow one other space to follow your interests. That also means that, if/when you have kids, you take some responsibility for amusing them so your other half can have some sanity time. Nothe that while they are under 12 months old you can't schedule this time more than a few hours in advance.
Second, talk. This may (and in my case has) meant PMs mid-raid to arrange who was dropping the kids off at school or making the packed lunches. Yell if you need to, but don't hide in a corner. Be honest. Count to ten before making an angry response to anything.
Oh, and ignore the books - and love each other!
Yes small lies, good cooking and an honest talk over wine ones a month. Please donâ(TM)t interrupt when one is coding and respect the napkin business models that are around the house, they are not napkins!
I would recommend You Just Don't Understand: Women and Men in Conversation by Deborah Tannen. I found it to be very helpful. There are few things more frustrating than misunderstanding or being misunderstood. You want to say something. Your thoughts get converted to words which get heard and converted to thoughts. Sometimes you don't say what you mean (without knowing it) and sometimes you do, but the words are interpreted in a very different way than you had intended. The book helped me to be more thoughtful about how I expressed myself and to also be more thoughtful about what I heard and how I interpret those words. Men and women communicate differently and the differences can be very subtle, but can cause lots of problems unless. I found what I learned to be useful not only in my marriage but also in communicating to other women as well as men. It's a quick read.
It's probably been said above already, but it bears repeating.
Remember that you're sharing your life with someone. Keep them involved (or at least aware) of what's going on, and visa-versa.
Be open and honest...don't hide or shade the truth.
Talk. Communication is by far the most important aspect as it enables the first two components. Depending upon the type of people you are, this might be easy or hard...and it can get harder as the years progress, and you fall into your patterns. Always try to understand...even if at first, what your partner says may seem nonsensical...just take the time to work through it so you know what's going on.
Give a hand, not a hand-out.
If I may illustrate by analogy: I've always looked at being in a relationship with a significant other (marriage or otherwise) as sort of akin to using MS Windows. It may not always be an enjoyable experience but it's what everybody else does and is the predominant manner in which most of the planet meets certain needs. Succumbing to the social dogma is, in a way, a compatibility issue.
I was lucky enough to marry a geek, and have been married for 5 years now. Considering the fact that most geeks are intellectual to some extent, the most important thing I have learned is that communication is key. Never, and I mean NEVER hold something back because you think that your partner won't understand. I also recommend talking about the taboos that most couples do not (i.e. cheating, death, etc.). These are topics that are not always pleasant but they build trust. Another thing is to talk things out instead of arguing. While I have had many heated discussions, we have never actually fought. Be flexible and admit when you are wrong. So many people can't admit when they are wrong due to pride or being just plain pig headed. HTH
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
I only say Euros if it is advice that is worth more. Things I have solid real life experience with. Others get the '2 Cents' or 'two Eurocents'. That advice is actually worth more than 2 Euros, I'd say.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
Since you are different varieties of geek, find ways to geek out together, and make it a priority. If a common interest fizzles as one or both of you loses interest, find something else to take its place.
Not everyone is the same, however the top 5 needs of men and women don't change much from individual to individual. While a sports analogy doesn't ring true for you, the same need to withdraw will likely manifest itself in a different way, such as gaming.
Top 5 needs of men
1. Sexual Fulfillment
2. Recreational Companionship
3. Attractive Spouse
4. Domestic Support (Know how to run the house)
5. Admiration
Top 5 needs of women
1. Affection
2. Conversation (understand feeling, not thinking)
3. Honesty
4. Financial Support
5. Family Commitment
As for your specific marriage I recommend two books having to do with MBTI personality types. The first will teach you about personality types, about you and your spouse. The next will match up your type with hers and show you the strengths and weaknesses of the type pairing. Of course it is impossible to caregorize everyone into 16 distinct types, however reading these pairings has been eerily accurate in my own experience. I have done this for several friends and it's almost like a fortune teller experience. Again though, personality characteristics manifest in different ways for different people.
Book 1: Please Understand Me II: Temperament, Character, Intelligence by David Keirsey
Book 2: Just Your Type: Create the Relationship You've Always Wanted Using the Secrets of Personality Type by Paul D. Tieger
Against Love
Saved my marriage for sure. After reading we stopped "working" on the relationship.
Also a lot of geeks are opting for non-traditional relationships (non-monogamy and the like), at least be open to talking about it all. Geeks -- even literary ones -- are after all highly evolved creatures.
I have been happily married for 3 1/2 years. We are very similar to you in that i am a geek and was a avid gamer, and my wife is the book smart type. One of the most important things that i have found is PAY ATTENTION TO HER!! Even if you are in the middle of something that is important to you (like playing wow) make sure and validate that she is in the room, either look over at her and say something to her ("i love u hun" is always a good one) or get up for a sec and go over and give her a kiss on the cheek, or whatever makes her feel loved. Also keep an eye out for signs that she may want your attention when you are busy, you may need to stop playing all together and give her the attention she needs. And dont wait till the end of the level if she looks upset, just get up and go over to her.. if you do this she will eat it up!!
Also you should both try doing things that the other likes to do, or try to blend them together so that you both can enjoy things together. Even though i am all about gaming on a computer we have a console so that we can both play together and we both enjoy it. Also it is ok to have a little bit of competition when playing together, but don't rub it in.. try to make it fun for both of you. One very very important thing... remember dates that are important to her and do something for them (like an occasional flower or dinner date) it doesn't have to be extravagant and creative but sometimes you still want to!! Don't be afraid to set reminders on your computer, she will respect this. Remember you are going to be together for a long time so take your time and have fun together don't take everything serious!
A nice rear is a plus. The waist on the other hand...
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
You should know without asking. You don't need advices or literature on that matter. Listen to your feelings, and be nice. It's a simple recipe that usually works.
Signed by: Another anonymous Computing Geek married to a Literature Geek.
I have a few short pieces of advice. I'm not sure that "literary geek" is a good term to use and I wouldn't recommend that you call her by that. Note that women are really really bad at being direct and they will often show displaced anger. As a guy, you will be completely unaware of this so you need to know that it happens. For example, in guy land if your roommate doesn't take out the trash even though he is supposed to, you will yell at him to take out the trash or you will inflict bodily harm on him. That doesn't happen in women land. In women land, the woman may say "You don't love me!" and after much talking and time spent you will finally figure out that she is really upset about the trash. Or perhaps she will give you some serious grief about not taking the trash out but her real problem is that she is angry that you never offer to help out in the kitchen. The other advice I have is that I found that reading the "Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus" book helped me to understand how men and women see the world differently. I've asked women and they tell me that they think the book's insights are correct. However, note that like any relationship book, this one has its detractors. The most interesting thing I learned in the book was its discussion of how men and women give out points very very differently in relationships and you'd do well to understand that.
Al: "Points A, B, C, and D."
Bob: "D is wrong, it's really E!"
What is implied is that Bob agrees with points A, B, and C, but it never gets spoken. In a relationship, this can sometimes end up leaving a feeling that you're constantly disagreeing with the other person, when really, you're only disagreeing about a small point in the overall issue.
So, if an argument occurs, start by figuring out what you agree on. Then you're working together.
Two rules I live by for a happy marriage: 1. Tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Seriously. If she asks if the clothes make her look fat, they do. That way, she'll believe you when you say they don't. 2. Realize that there are matters upon which you will likely never agree. You don't have to agree on everything, just be able and willing to negotiate. Bribery works very well for getting your way.
1. Love one another. That's #1 and it always will be. If there is no mutual love, nothing else matters. Your definition and feelings about love (yes, it's about feelings, not just logic or chemical reactions) might be different from hers, but it's not definable anyway. You'll both know it when you have it. Keep it.
2. Stop reading the books. Books are bullshit. The relationship you create with one another is far beyond what can be defined within the squared-off parameters of some outsider's perspective or opinions. All you're doing is making the people who write those useless things a little more wealthy. In fact, you probably should not be listening to anyone on this site about this, including me, but I'm not charging you. Just remember what I say may be worth what you're paying for it. When all the books talk about "compatibility" and the like, they're ignoring the incredible relationships of polar opposites...I think of Mary Matalin and James Carville as a public example. In my own family, I see a couple who are as politically opposite as you can get, but they worship one another. Sometimes, it's not about being compatible, but loving and accepting someone, even if they're different.
3. Here's some man advice: listen. Trust me on this one...don't ever shut her off, no matter how boring the subject matter is, and especially if she wants to vent (yes, even about you). You can have your say when the time comes, but you have to learn to listen to her, showing interest in what she has to say. Always. Even if you don't agree. If you can do this, it will go a long way to your marriage lasting forever. This doesn't mean caving in or compromising. She needs to do the same thing. But men seem to have an issue with this...believe me, I do at times...but this is something that most women wish their men did better. Doing it isn't difficult. The effort you make will be appreciated in spades.
4. Remember that things work both ways. It's a marriage, not a game. You don't push the stick and expect her to move the way you want when you want. Same thing for her. If you like something, tell her. Then find out what she likes and do it. In all things, from movies to leisure to TV to sex. Everything. You cannot get the things you want from a relationship if you're not willing to share that responsibility. Neither can she.
5. If you value your relationship and you truly love her, be ready for fight for her, hard. I hope that you never have a reason to do this, but you have to be willing to give it all up for her if that moment comes. I'm not speaking just of "fighting" in the physical sense, but emotionally, romantically, spiritually, whatever. In the end, the fight may be futile, but you have to be willing to go as far as necessary if you value the relationship and want to preserve it, even save it. Some people stay together a long, long time, both knowing that love and devotion are there. But sometimes, one party doesn't realize the depths of love and devotion the other has, because words and physical gestures are not often enough to express it. The day may come when you really have to reach down for this, so be prepared for it.
Now, the cynics here might read this and laugh and call it bullshit, but I'm just trying to offer some words based on my personal experiences. Just for disclosure's sake, I'm the geek (professionally) and she's a school administrator. She's not a "geek" in the usual definitions of the term, but she's smart, beautiful, and a superb human being. I am as devoted to her now as I was when I first saw her, 36 years ago, when we were seniors in high school. Next month will be our 30th wedding anniversary. Hope that's evidence of experience.
Joe Dougherty, Florida, USA
The words I thought I brought, I left behind. So, never mind.
Another thing to look out for is the power level in the relationship. There is only room for one full time captain on the ship. If you want to be the boss all the time and she wants to be the boss all the time it is hard. If one of you wants to be the boss and the other wants to be a follower then that is good. If you want to switch that is good too.
The other thing is some advice is "put your partner first" and "always do what she wants". That won't work all the time. On some level you have wants, things that you absolutely need. Failure to get those things will yield to you being miserable. The same goes for her. In the end you can put your partner first but you have to make sure you aren't neglecting your own needs. Ie if every time you go out to the movies you see what she wants to see and not what you want, you may feel resentful and bottle it up, then that resentment will explode in some other unrelated argument. Not that you should only go to movies you want or the reverse happens. You can even go to mostly movies that she wants. But occasionally you have to slip in your needs. In the end if she is incompatible with your needs, the relationship won't work. Just as you have to bow and help her with her needs she also has to do it for you to an extent.
The plain truth of the matter is relationships, and especially marriages are hard. They start off pretty great, but hard times will come. Being geeks, you're both always right! The trouble will come when you're both right, but you don't agree. You'll need to be OK with agreeing to disagree. If you can debate a topic peacefully without feelings getting hurt that would be great, but when you live that close with someone for very long, even the small insignificant things seem huge.
So, my number one advice to anyone getting married is just don't give up. If you're going to do this go into it thinking it's permanent and there's no way out. Any disagreement can be resolved with patience. So if you're both committed 100% to make it work no matter what, even if it means accepting that you might be wrong about something, then you'll be OK.
Unfortunately, all of the references seem to be based around an alpha-male jock and a submissive cheerleader-style wife.
Unfortunately, the reproductive process of these to variants are successful. I suggest getting in touch with your inner dumbass (her as well) and make kids that are competent enough to turn the idiocrocy tide, instead of reading up on it. Sometimes it is good to put down the book.
Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
Throw an exception if you don't reinitialize the toilet seat.
At this point, it has been 5+ years since my wife and I have been married. The first issue that we ran into almost immediately after meeting, at the end of our 3rd year of college, was our plans after college. We knew almost immediately that we would be together. However, in a geek marriage, together can be a relative term. After college, my wife (then gf) went off to get her doctorate in another state, while I stayed behind and did one more year at our Alma Mater, in order to work towards my Masters degree. Long story, short, I did not finish the degree in one year, but did receive a job in the same state. During all of this time, we managed to see one another and get engaged. The job didn't last long, so I moved to be with her. This was during the last recession, which made IT jobs even more scarce in a part of the country where IT jobs are scarce anyway. After a year or so, I was able to secure an IT job at the university at which she was receiving her doctorate. All was well, and we were married shortly after. But - and this will always happen in a geek marriage - it had already been several years and she was set to receive her Ph.D. in another 3 years. What would we do then? Well, time went by, and she received her degree. Researchers cannot exactly sit on a Ph.D., so, once again, she had to move to where her Postdoc position would be. She found a position right away, in another state, and she moved. I took this opportunity to stay behind and finish my Masters degree, between work and flying to see her every other weekend. After finishing, I found a (higher paying) job close to her (even though my new commute is 1.5 hours both ways and I do not like where we currently live). Although, I have the feeling that this arrangement will only be temporarily.
My point? You're both geeks. You both will likely want to work at a job that YOU find fulfilling that will not stagnate YOUR career. Our biggest disagreements have been about this. The problem has the attributes of a double-edge sword. We make more than enough for the both of us and are in a good financial position. But, her career requirements are more rigid than mine, and let's face it, you can do IT pretty much anywhere, so I pack my bags and move around to be with her. This has required us to take the short view (3 or 4 years at a time) and not the long view, which has prevented us from doing normal married things like buying a house and establishing lasting relationships with others around us.
My advice for nerds who tend to be intelligent, inwardly focused and long-term planners, is to take each day, week, month, year as it comes, and be flexible and talk about any issue you are having until you are blue in the face. It works.
First, I ask why do you want to get married? Make sure you have solid, concrete answers for that question. Many people get married because "its the thing to do". Terrible. One of you will end up owing the other half of everything, this includes your RAID NAS. Second, do your 5/10/20 year plans align? Is she your dream killer? Are you ready to have your dreams killed? Are you sure you want your dreams killed? Do you both want the same out of life? Finally, if you don't have common interests, it will put a strain on the relationship. What happens if some of those common interests dwindle? Do you still have a concrete relationship?
There are lots of good ideas above (honesty and communication are good things), but I find it interesting that nobody has talked about values.
My wife and I have been married for almost 15 years. She is a bit of a book geek, while I am a math/tech geek. We are opposites in many ways, but we share core values that keep us in sync. Neither of us is particularly religious, but we still have shared values help us keep things in perspective.
Some of our friends are divorced. For years, they seemed to be great play mates, but ultimately inconsistent values sank their relationships. Beware: if your values are out of sync, then having kids can shine a light on your core differences. For my wife and I, having kids has been great because they help to shine a light on the ways we are consistent. For several of our friends, having kids has shined a harsh light on their differences.
Anyway, good luck. Focus on values. Communicate. Be honest.
--p
"Nothing is impossible. Some things are just less likely than others." - Jonathan Winters
1. have fun 2. stay best friends 3. get it on at least twice a week and keep it freaky. physical intimacy leads to closeness the rest of the time, too. Keeping it interesting, uh, keeps it interesting 4. pick your battles. Is this *thing* worth arguing about? Is it *really* worth arguing about? 5. be able to be wrong and be able to verbalize and appologize 6. compliment her every day.
While whatever you've read may focus on Sports, common roles, etc, I recommend you take the advice to heart. Recognize that basically, you are still the male, and your wife is still the female. Regardless of how much you try to downplay those roles, I have no doubt that at some point you will see them. My wife is very independent, but occasionally she falls into the stereotypical roles that we eschew so much. Likewise, I sometimes fall into the stereotypical male roles that I generally try to avoid. That's because we're human beings and we have natural instincts.
At any rate, while you may not be interested in sports, it doesn't mean that you're immune to neglecting your companion, and that's the important part. Likewise, there are some ways she might neglect you. Make efforts to talk to each other, understand the needs of each other, and make sure you're doing what you can to care for her.
I wish you the best of luck and success in your marriage. Congratulations!
Asking for help means that you've got a pretty different idea of marriage. And as I, humble Coward, means a different set of ideas might apply. Those who ask for help before things get rough are not the ones targeted by those books.
1) It's OKAY to break the 'traditional' rules. This is important. While you hear 'Never go to bed angry' this is not always the case. Sometimes, it's good to seperate and let things cool off. Even little things may need this - just communicate when it's best for both of you. You'll get so much more sleep that way.
2) Have an affair. Really. Talk about it before hand and explore. Everyone needs another opinion and sometimes, friends won't due. Get someone new in your life and explore where that leads. Trust is key.
3) Lead separate lives. Again, marriage isn't getting another body attached. Go to separate events. Take vacations alone. Time spent apart does wonderful things and can strengthen bonds.It's the same trust.
4) Combine resources. Too many couples keep separate checking accounts and try and maintain a 'joint' venture. Just skip the separate part. It'll always end poorly and sets up a trust wall.
5) Don't worry about big purchases. My wife's father told us this advice when we got engaged and it's served us well. When you have a big purchase (with us, mostly computers and artwork), don't involve the other until it's done. You both know where the money is. You both should be relatively sane. If you want that car, think it over and then splurge.
Marriage isn't becoming a single person. Marriage is two people in, essentially, a mutually assured destruction agreement. Realizing that put many things in perspective and has made things much stabler in our relationship.
Forgive my prying, but might I know what social expectations destroyed your marriages? Its just that I do know some married couples, and I cant really think of any pressures I mightve put on them due to their marriage.
"This American Life" had an interesting episode a year or two back involving research on couples where they were asked to discuss some contentious point in their relationship. They played segments of the various arguments. At first blush, some of the arguments seemed pretty bad but what the research had discovered was the little clues in the discussions. At one point in a heated discussion the guy paused and commented "Are those new shoes? They are nice." The researcher commented that traditional wisdom would call that avoiding the discussion but in fact the monitors showed that blood pressure, breathing and such dropped and they continued the discussion. A different example didn't sound as bad at first but the couple ended up throwing in put-downs of the other person. This was a relationship in trouble.
I am a Linux geek who married a literary bookworm and after nine years I can say that it's good. We have a 5-year-old who thinks all computer programs involve Penguins and who hides under her covers with a flashlight so she can read. There are amusing moments that highlight our different backgrounds. Friends of ours named their boat "Prufrock". I googled it. She just started reciting the poem from memory.
Best wishes for a long and happy life together.
~~~~~~~
"You are not remembered for doing what is expected of you." - Atul Chitnis
Everyone says communication is key, but what I'm not hearing is communication about expectations. You really need to know what your SO's and your own expectations are and make any compromises in advance that you can. Know that your expectations & compromises WILL change.
1. Who is expected to do chores? Which chores? Cooking, cleaning, mowing, shopping, oil changes, etc. Is one of you expecting to be able to give "HoneyDo" lists to the other? Who cleans the bathroom & to whose standards?
2. Finances. Who budgets? who pays bills? What money is common and what money is not? Does one, or both of you get an allowance of personal money? Who decides how to spend discretionary money? Do you budget vacations in advance? if ONE of you controls the budget, be careful not to allow this to become a dominance thing.
3. Asthestics. Who picks cars, couches, pictures, carpet, etc? Whose decor is it and why?
4. Physical. Do you expect your partner to stay the same shape/fitness? What happens if time/work/children make this not allowable?
5. Children. Yes, No, NEVER, Maybe. When? Who decides? Oopsy, I know we decided "Yes in 2 years but ..". Upbringing. Good cop/bad cop? So very unfair to the "bad cop".
6. Private time? Friend Time? Date time? Private/personal space?
Expectations and the managing thereof are some of the most crucial ingredients in making a marriage viable. And I guarantee you both have some expectations that you don't even realize you have so you to start discussing the ones you know about, especially the ones you think are a "given".
-- More Smoke! The mirrors aren't working!!!
I also think parts of Gary Chapman's Five Love Languages book and ideas are useful, in that you end up with a profile of your and your mate's needs and how they match/mismatch. Mismatched needs can result in huge problems. The key is attitude, and that is worth a long, hard look. Do you feel that your mate deserves to have their needs met in the ways they need them? Does (s)he feel that way about you? How strongly? How high a priority is that to each of you? If it isn't a very high priority and the two of you are poor matches, then you might need to rethink your plans. If you're good matches, then unless one of you is too self-centered, you'll instinctively be able to fill each other's needs. If not, then think about how much trouble it'll be to fill your mate's. Don't write off your own needs, either. You never know when you might become more needy than you are presently and become resentful that your mate won't give you what you need. It's really not about what either of you wants, it's about what you'll each need throughout your lives. Consider areas where you mismatch (at least visit the website, fivelovelanguages.com, and don't throw the baby out with the bathwater; there's good stuff there, even if you find a lot that turns you off) and explore whether one is willing to expend effort to give the other what they need and try to learn to enjoy doing it when it's NOT presently something they like doing. No, not "willing to", but WANTING to. "Willing" is not enough. It connotes "yeah, yeah, I'll do all that stuff." What you really need is "yes, I want to do those things." Beat that dead horse, because it's going to be central to some problems down the road. One other thing... some people do OK by getting a need filled externally. As long as it works for the needer and is definitely OK with the mate, this seems reasonable. But be careful: you might start wondering why you're married if you're getting too many of your needs filled elsewhere. I'm not a counselor, this is stuff I've learned during 24 years of marriage, often the hard way. Do some other comparisons, too. Take the Myers-Briggs and compare your types. Take the Enneagram and compare results. Best of luck.
"Getting the Love You Want" by Harville Hendrix http://www.amazon.com/Getting-Love-You-Want-Couples/dp/0805068953 29 years and counting
but if they never tell you the sex sucked, it will continue to suck until they get sick of it and cheat on you. It's a lot better to give and take constructive criticism.
Likewise you can acknowledge weight gain. Hopefully you can also acknowledge that it doesn't matter to you because you love your wife, right?
Small lies only mask problems. But you also have to understand your partner to be honest and open. For instance, when someone asks if something makes them look fat, they might really be asking "do you still find me attractive"? answering a question not asked is sometimes a good idea too when the truth is less than great.
Then everything seems to make a lot more sense.
They're using their grammar skills there.
#1 most important thing in ANY marriage is honesty. I know several couples (including my parents) who have been married 13+ years and that is the thing they stress the most. 100% honesty, even when it might be hurtful to the other person. This doesn't mean blurt out whatever you're thinking at all times. Sometimes, thoughts are fleeting. But if you're struggling with something in your marriage, find a way to talk about it as soon as you can. Use tact. For example, I didn't like a certain thing (we'll call it X) my husband was doing during sex; it was a bit of a turn-off. And he did it through several of our sessions, so I knew I needed to nip it in the bud. One day, when we were completely out of sex mode and just hanging out, I just told him, "You know, when you do Y, it drives me up the wall... in a good way. You should do that more. X, though... it isn't really my thing. I like that you tried something new, though! It's great to explore. We should find more things that are as awesome as Y." Sex gets better every time with that kind of open communication (he does the same with me). When you can learn to communicate without hurting feelings in areas that are most delicate, everything else is easy. Hurt feelings are inevitable at some point, though, so you also need to learn to apologize. But NEVER apologize when you're not sincere. Ever. Again, 100% honesty. If you're not sorry about something you did, explain how you feel.
Don't insult each other. My husband and I jokingly insult each other (i.e. "Oh, you douche!" when he beats me in SF4), but NEVER seriously. Tone is very important.
Even if she does stuff that you find boring on the surface, learn more about it. For example, my husband is a fight-stick geek. He looks at pictures of them all the time, researches what parts are good, etc. I find it boring, but I pay attention when he talks to me about it because he's interested in it. He does the same thing with me and my knitting. It gives each of you a platform on which to carry a conversation. You'll also learn a lot about each other that you normally wouldn't.
Ok, all these guys who are telling you self help books are useless are mostly right. There's one book that will help you both. It's cheesy, and stupid, and totally right about girls. It's called "Women are from Mars, men are from Venus". You don't even need to read the whole thing, just the chapters about how to *listen* during an argument, and what women expect in those situations.
It'll save your ass over, and over, and over again!
Congrats, and good luck making it work in your marriage!
Marriage is da bomb with the person you love. You'll never know a high that's greater in your life, imho. But you can also have the lowest lows too. I married the man that was my equal in hundreds of ways, and I still love him even now. But communication was never really there, and I missed the signs. From the day we met we were attracted to one another, but he was showing signes of running from the moment we met. I didn't see that communciation. I wish I had. For he has run away from me, as fast as his selfish legs will take him. He didn't know how to communicate when things didn't fit in his mind. I kept things bottled up, he hid his feelings, and in the end he destroyed them, dropped a feeling bomb and ran.
Marriage is hard work, don't let anyone tell you different, you've receive a lot of good advice from lots of /.'ers, and they have provided some great wisdom. The books you've read also provided you lots to consider. But don't let all of this cloud your life with your spouse. Honesty is easy when you have good things to say, but it's not when the info is less than pleasant. Find your communication niche with your spouse. Make it work for you two, try different methods, and if you two truely are committed to each other, you will be able to work through almost anything and find an acceptable accord.
Key words to remember... Honesty, communication, trust, compassion, faithful, LOVE.
Hope you have a adventurous and wonderful life together.
Life takes interesting turns, but the most interest is when you're off the beaten path.
Another geek marriage here, my wife and I are both CS IT professionals.
Good stuff:
- You have someone to talk to about similar subjects
- You don't fight over what TV and movies to watch (SCI-FI)
- A LOT less drama and fighting over stupid stuff
Not awesome stuff:
- You have to take turns on the computer or game system since your wife knows how to use it too
- After work if your spouse has the same job, he/she can ask you for help
- She doesn't read cosmo so she's not constantly trying to figure out what kind of sex you want
There really hasn't been any really "BAD" stuff, and funny how life works we have started to fall into more macho and girly roles over the years, especially after having kids.
Hmm...lots of people giving advice...
First off, congratulations - may your marriage be long and happy.
Second, I'm not married, but I got to the point of proposing once. She said no...and the reason amounted to one thing. So, I'm just going to tell you what our mistake was, and advise that you don't repeat it.
She had one vision for what the relationship would be, and I had another. Neither one of us just left it alone to be what it was. And that's what ensured it died a slow death. We loved each other a great deal, but that didn't save us from our own manhandling of it.
So, as I said, congratulations, and don't make my mistake.
Robert B. Marks
Author, Demonsbane in Diablo Archive
You are already doomed if you are not letting yourself be vulnerable due to true love. I would say that is the most important aspect, being a married geek myself.
If you walked into the kitchen and found your spouse laying on the floor injured:
1) (perhaps unconsciously) assess the situation -- is the room on fire, are they bleeding, are they breathing, etc.
2) respond in a helpful way (stop the bleeding, call for help, etc.)
What you *wouldn't* do, is go over and kick them.
When your partner is angry at you, they are emotionally injured. Use the same assess/respond approach. First, listen to everything they have to say. If you sense that there's more on their mind, ask for it, but otherwise just listen. When they're done, find all the blame you deserve (and there is *always* enough blame to go around), and accept it and say what you're going to do about it. That clears the table of all the stuff you two agree on, and leaves just the real issues. It's fair at this point to bring up where you think they're off-base, too, but stick with the issues at hand. Then discuss in supportive tones the issues that remains. In the end, you two should have both found some blame to accept, and an acceptable compromise on how to do things in the future. It's only a "win", if you're both OK with it.
What you *must not* do when your partner is angry or upset with you, is to emotionally lash out at them. It's a natural response, but it's equivalent to kicking them when they're injured. Not only doesn't it help the situation, it makes it much worse. Shut-up and listen.
Good luck and best wishes. We're at year 13, and doing better than ever.
Read "His Needs, Her Needs." It's for real.
After 10 years of marriage, there is only one sure way to make it last. Communication. Openly and honestly communicate with your spouse, even when it is difficult or will hurt feelings, and your marriage will benefit and grow.
Oh, and there are only two difficult years in marriage -- the first and the current.
Of course they should tell you the sex should be improved, just you know ... timing is everything.
Then again, telling your partner the sex is bad because their penis is too small is probably less than productive in creating a better sexual experience for anyone.
Prepare for the likelihood of Autism Spectrum Disorder children. If I knew that was in the offing I wouldn't've married a geek.
The secret is playing ONLY cooperative games with her. Never, and I mean NEVER play deathmatch with your girl. Women often think frags in games carry a "secret" message, as if you'd really wanted to kill her... Specially if you happen to use a chainsaw and scream "DIE B1TCH!!"
A mate will totally understand that it's a game, your fiance will never do it.
You need to take up a sport.
She needs to get a cheerleading uniform.
Really, it will make you both happier.
http://www.amazon.com/Please-Understand-Temperament-Character-Intelligence/dp/1885705026/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1249484282&sr=8-1
Your wife should know better than to ask questions she doesn't want answered. That's just not fair.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_mono/woman.html
RTFM!!!
Do you mind skipping happy hour with your boys to paint the mother-in-law's living room? Of course you do! BUT, you say it's no problem and do it anyway because it's the right thing to do.
No, you tell her you had plans that are important to you. You still paint the room of course. This does two things, it lets her know that her priorities are important to you too, and it gets you some good will for next time your plans conflict.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
I've been married 19 years and learned a few lessons about making a successful marriage, none of which take "geekness" into account (it's not relevant). In no particular order, they are: 1) Say "I love you" out loud and in ways that your spouse will interpret as being loving (it is OK, nay, recommended, to ask "what do I do that makes you feel loved?). An author named John Lund writes about what he calls love languages to get this point across. Categories include: Doing things, saying things, spending time together, etc... 2) Be honest. The minute you start hiding things from your spouse, you are creating a problem. Don't rationalize yourself out of this, you're all smart enough to understand when you do this and why. Yes, marriage means love. It also means sacrifice of what you want, to make someone else (spouse, kids) happy. 3) Be united. This takes many forms, but boils down to: "talk with each other to make sure you're working on the same goals for the same reasons." What little I understand about women tells me that they (generally) need to feel like you understand them. All the problems you hear about with the stereotypical "bad husband" stories have this in common: the husband is ignoring the wife and being selfish about something. Husbands are men, not boys. So, be a mature, responsible man and go build a family together. Any problems you have along the way (and you -will- have some, either external or self-inflicted) can be survived if you will both stick with the core ideas I mention above. [YMMV]
Carbon_Tet
Don't sweat it. Marriage & relationship guides are just another kind of porn. They present someone's idea of perfection for you to aspire to and fail at. Every single person and every single couple is a unique combination, you just need to feel your way through it. What worked for me is: respect your differences, make space for each other and make time for each other too. Be friends. Make sure you communicate your feelings, If you really are both geeks, don't over-analyse your problems, relationships don't do logic and you will go crazy trying to work out the maths :)
YOu're not mature enough.
1. You refer to your potential wife as a "girl". Grow the fuck up. You're not ready for marriage until you see and think of her as a "woman". (I'm serious!)
2. You view the world of relationships as "jock" and "cheerleader" stereotypes. WTF man, are you like fresh out of high school? Again, do some growing up in the real world so you can see how varied reality is.
DON'T GET MARRIED until you're in your 30's and have a a fucking clue.
Aren't we special? But truthfully, the wisdom in this oh-so-human realm of experience is millenia old, maybe even aeons old, and I doubt you and yours will find anything radically new to brag (or moan) about. Are you good people? Are you friends? Do you like kids? Can your little family unit support itself? Take it from an anti-social geek who's been there and done that — your theories evaporate like the morning dew when your first kid arrives. Suddenly, one man plus one woman fuses in a synergy with the strength of ten and all your personal boundaries and sophomoric bull about identity jump five lightyears in radius. Be honest with each other, and you will quite soon discovery mysteries and joys, pangs and regrets, you can't imagine exist.
``Tension, apprehension & dissension have begun!'' - Duffy Wyg&, in Alfred Bester's _The Demolished Man_
Foci of Earth's Elliptical Orbit
Please be gentle, mods. I'm just trying to help someone out. :)
Modern copyright is theft of culture from everyone and it retards the progress of the useful arts and sciences.
Don't worry about books that you feel don't apply to you, just use common sense. Treat her with the love and respect you want her to treat you with. Love and take care of each other. Don't ever forget all the reasons you love her so much now, and don't let her forget how awesome she is. Show your appreciation for even the little things. Always back each other up, especially if/when you have kids. Be dependable for one another, but don't take one another for granted.
Get beyond the examples in the books. They may make references to watching football or other such sports references because a majority of readers will be able to relate to such topics. Try to figure out the underlying issues. My wife was and is thrilled that I don't get caught up in all of the sports mania that goes around, but boy can she get frustrated by my game-playing habits. Many of the examples try to get at basic, innate needs that are common to the vast majority of people of each gender. For him, it boils down to being respected. For her, it boils down to feeling loved. If he sits and watches TV all the time to the exclusion of activities she needs to feel loved (e.g., conversation, questions about her friends or her day, non-solicitive hugs), she feels unloved. If she nags him about housework or derides his interest in sports (or cars, cycles, games, his D&D group), he feels a lack of respect. When he does not feel respected, he respond to her in ways she perceives as unloving. When she perceives she is not loved, she responds less respectfully to him.
While your relationship may not fit the details of any given illustration, you can learn many lessons from some books, but you'll learn more lessons (and, imo, more significant ones) through your own experiences and through the experiences of others. Find a long-married couple and get to know them. Find out how they dealt with difficult situations. As them about what kept them together. Most will tell you that the warm fuzzy feelings can (and do) go away. They can come back, and some maintain them a long, long time, but they are not the feelings that preserve a marriage. What preserves it is the I'll-love-you-by-doing-what's-best-for-you-without-regard-for-myself kind of love that is most often viewed as commitment. It's the kind of love that says "I'll stick with you no matter what"--not because of what I get from the other person, but I'm committed to giving myself over to another.
When you have and practice that kind of love (and, yes, it takes much practice), it's hard to keep the other from loving you back. My wife and I have been married 16 years--a drop in the bucket by some standards--but that's what keeps us going. We're looking forward to the rest of our lives together, to the exclusion of all others. It's an adventure we've barely begun. Best regards as you set out on your journey!
I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
As a FEMALE geek who met her husband via Slashdot, there are a few things which have been said over and over, but they're important.
-- You're not that good of a liar. Therefore, if something is bothering you, you can try to hide it in order to spare your partner's feelings, but bottom line, just as you're not that good of a liar, your partner isn't stupid. So just get it out, it's easier and quicker and will result in fewer hurt feelings.
-- Realize that no matter how geeky you both are, you are different. Different things cause us to be stressed, and one of the important components of a relationship is realizing what things won't cause panic in yourself but will in your spouse and proactively helping your spouse through that.
-- Most importantly, remember why you're marrying her. Not only do you have lust for her, and love for her, you LIKE her as a person. You find her beautiful, brilliant, funny. So when she's left her dirty dishes in the sink for the millionth time in favour of reading a book, shake your head and smile, because that's part of who she is. Just like how she's going to tolerate how stinky you get during your WoW binges. Yes, these things are minor annoyances, and over time, she'll realize she can do the dishes and THEN read, and you'll make sure to shower prior to that huge raid, but don't let the little things get in the way of that most important thing. There's a reason you're marrying her, because you like her, love her, feel lust for her. Don't ever forget that.
Far too many marriages fail, and while people cite many things, it often boils down to one or both partners in the marriage just plain not being NICE to the person they claim to love.
Unlike parent I am not being funny but I thought NLP was "Neuro-Linguistic Programming" not Natural Language Processing. This link gives a bunch of other options. Would studying a trip to some place in South Africa help? I doubt it.
Having been married for 21.5 years, but not to a geek, my #1 recommendation is to follow the "Platinum Rule":
"Do unto [your spouse] as you would have them do to you -- if you were them."
Without adding that last clause, the Golden Rule can become a little thin. It's arguable that the extra clause is implied in the rest of the Golden Rule but it's better to put it bluntly, out there. If you don't realize that your spouse does not have exactly the same set of thoughts, dreams, desires, wishes etc., your attempts to apply the Golden Rule will be clumsy and probably do more harm than good.
All the best to you! This is the second toughest job you'll ever love (parenting is the toughest one -- sorry military; your job is tough, too, but your deployment comes to an end, parenting doesn't).
cheers...ank
Still hoping for Gentle Treatment...
What "social weight" are you talking about? Being expected to treat your spouse well? Being expected to be honest with your spouse? Being expected to not ignore them? I'm being dead serious, I have no clue what "social weight" you could be talking about beyond the mere things that are expected of any healthy relationship (whether it's between a parent and child, friends, people who are dating, or people who are married).
My best guess at what you're really trying to say is that one of you (or both) put the opinions / desires of other people over the opinion / needs / desires of your spouse. I used to date a girl that was everything I could ever want in a girl and then some -- and she looked at me the same. However, there was one flaw - due to the way she was raised (large family living out in the middle of nowhere in the country so they pretty much only had each other to talk to), she would always put her parents and siblings first. I was actually relieved a bit after we broke up because I knew that if we had gotten married, she would still continue to put them before me, and you can't have that in a good relationship. The same thing ended up causing issues with her older sister who recently got divorced because she allowed her family to influence her as well.
So, to sum up: If you read this and respond, I'd really like to know what "social weight" you're talking about and one of the biggest screw ups people make in a relationship is putting hobbies / work / other people before their SO.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
This book is about the life cycle of failed relationships. The path to divorce may start earlier than the wedding. Learn if some patterns apply to you. Some concepts revolve around distribution of information about the relationship among the couple. The book is not written by a psychologist who may be tempted to offer explanations, but by a sociologist who - in a curious unity of neutral, objective, indifferent yet compassionate discussion - analyzes a high number of uncouplings and highlight patterns of events and information flow. The book is thus compatible with analytical thinking, while its narration style might be interesting for the literary. Spirituality, commonplaces, broilerplate folksy advice or upbeat can-do encouragement are not found here. Considering the wealth of information, conclusions and advice are kept to precious short phrases, which is a merit of the book considering its stance and how little we know about ourselves.
http://www.amazon.com/Uncoupling-Turning-Points-Intimate-Relationships/dp/0679730028
Start talking about finances now. Get on a budget so you know exactly where you stand, with relation to expenses. Get some money saved up to take the pressure off in case something happens and its going to happen. Avoid accumulating debt as much as possible or completely if you can, its just more stress that can be avoided. If the two of you can talk frankly about money and get on the same page you can talk about anything which in turn will help with working through any trials that come along immensely.
Shop smart, Shop S-Mart.
For most people (women or men), considerate surprises are a "good thing" [tm]
a) Random acts of kindness never hurt (flowers, etc)
b) However, too much of [a] makes it less meaningful/appreciated in the long term
c) Random acts in [a] are NOT a substitute for important events (missing an anniversary/birthday/etc)
d) Surprises for special events are often fun for both parties
e) Don't buy gifts for yourself in the guise of getting them for your SO (oddly, a lot of people do this)
Showing up from work with flowers sometimes works out nicely. Buying gold+diamond jewelry, on the other hand, will sometimes lead to a "spoiled spouse" if it's not on a special occasion :-)
Pay attention to your wife's likes and dislikes. Don't always beg off those trips to the mall as boring, but rather go sometimes and pay attention to those "what she likes but can't bring herself to buy" items. Spending time together is important. If you're going to drag her to a comic-con sometime, then at least you can go with her to Central City and hit the mall on occasion (of course if you both like comic-cons and malls then it's win-win anyhow), but paying attention to her likes/dislikes and shopping habits is often a real win because she knows you actually give a damn enough to do so...
She wants to sit on your lap.
If your laptop is on your lap, she cannot sit on your lap.
Keep your geeky hobbies and interests in check - leave a significant amount of time for social interaction with each other. Oh yes, and interact with each other.
If she's reading, and looks like she will be for some time, go ahead and compute. If she puts book away, put computer away.
Also, the hardest cues to pick up on for geekboys are the "-blink- -blink- it's time to go to bed" cues. It doesn't matter that you're not tired or sleepy yet. That's the point, dolt.
Communication can not be understated. It's important to note that communication does not simply involve you talking to her, but also you listening to her. Some times we as men want to listen and fix, but sometimes she will just need a listening ear so she can unload her worries before she goes insane. Put up and shut up, because she does this for you more often then you realize.
On thing I haven't seen mentioned specifically is honesty and communication about money. All the other things discussed here are very important for the relationship, but marriage is a business contract wrapped around that relationship. Money is the number one reason for divorce (in America anyway). Both partners have to be involved with the short and long term finance goals. Both of you have to be on the same page about how much to save, spend and give. Argue out the details before the money is spent and don't keep financial secrets. It took us a few years to learn this, but after 7 years now, things are very good.
John Gottman. He does actual research on what works: http://www.kuow.org/program.php?id=17294
The only thing you need to know for a successful marriage, regardless of personality types, is one simple phrase: "Yes, dear."
Just remember men and women often interpret things differently.
And she will have needs that you don't, and you will have needs that she doesn't.
"you patronizing remnant of the jock-cheerleader era"
You couldn't be more wrong, hated sports, hated jocks, hated cheerleaders.
Shit, she lets me win sometimes, too.
'If Christ had tweeted the sermon on the mount, it might have lasted until nightfall.' - John Perry Barlow
A quick illustrative test:
If your significant other gets a promotion do you /cheer, /hug, /dance and tell your love how awesome they are and how much they deserve it
a) feel inadequate or jealous
b) sulk, blow off, belittle or otherwise diminish the accomplishment
c)
If you select a or b, your relationship is likely doomed. C is where it's at.
I really don't think the fact that both of you are geeks has anything to do with it. As many others have pointed out you are simply replacing one set of potential issues with another (ie. watching football all sunday vs playing games all sunday -- the underlying problem is the same).
What I haven't seen anyone mention is that just because you are married doesn't mean you get to stop trying. You *MUST* continuously "date" your wife. Whatever it is that you did to get her to agree to marry you in the first place... keep on doing... if that means flowers and chocolate and nice dinners out, do it. If it means setting aside time to read books she likes, do it. If it means joint sessions of WoW, do it. Marriage doesn't give you a free pass to your relationship.
The other thing I would say is that you two can make a choice right now. Are you going to work through your issues (you *WILL* have them) and be open with each other? Or are you going to keep the divorce card in your pocket just in case. My advice... toss the divorce card out the window and be willing to work through your issues no matter what. And before everyone jumps on me, I do realize that divorce is sometimes necessary -- but getting a divorce because he plays too much WoW isn't one of them. The bigger problem there is that you won't have learned anything. Why did I play WoW so much? Why did I let him play WoW so much? What is the underlying issues? Co-dependence, passive agressive, depression? You've got to solve those or you'll be back in the same boat the next time around.
I read an article about a study that took unhappy couples. Some broke up. Some got counseling and worked through it. Five years later 75% of those that stayed together were "more happy". Only 25% that broke up were "more happy". (my numbers are off, but you get my point).
I've been married 12 years..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-94JhLEiN0
A literary "geek" isn't anything like a technical geek. Don't make that mistake.
They aren't geeks at all, really. I know, I'm both and live in both worlds.
Don't think that just because she's socially weird too that you are at all the same. The literary mind doesn't work the same as the technical mind.
You will fuck it all up if you don't realize that right now.
Good luck and congratulations!
I found myself in a very similar place as you find yourself in now. I would guess/assume atheist or agnostic? If not, I do sincerely apologize! I new a guy who did pre-marital counseling, and as both my wife and I felt that divorce is practically never an option (consideration must always be given for those very few and rare cases of legitimate divorce) It seemed logical to prepare for our marriage with a counselor. While there is a lot of useless garbage out there, he did know of one good book to use. it is called "Preparing for Marriage God's Way" and it is by Dr. Wayne A. Mack. I don't know what your personal religious beliefs are, so I won't try to say anything on that fact. I can only speak from personal experience. This book is very VERY good. I thought my soon to be wife and I were completely open and honest with each other about everything, that we knew all the little inner-workings of each other already (We'd been dating for 4 years already) This book was a genuinely humbling experience. If you and your fiance can be completely honest while working through this book I think you would be amazed at how helpful it really is. If you want to talk more about it, feel free to email me at xkcd1 at yahoo dot com.
My husband and I met in Unix class. Since then he has remained a true geek, and I have admitted that I was just a poser. Geek couples have a big advantage: they can tap into that "troubleshooting" vibe when things get intense... ignore your emotions ask questions, and leave them open talk in hypotheticals just keep exploring use your geek intuition
I usually give these books to newlyweds with the recommendation that they both read them:
1) Personality Plus by Florence Littauer
2) The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman
3) Love and Respect by Dr. Emerson
but you can boil it all down to "you can be right, or you can be happy."
The reason that is insightful is because in a relationship most arguments are not about facts - they are about feelings. If you "win" an argument over feelings, you are basically saying 'your feelings are worth less than mine'. It's ok to stand your ground when it is truly important but for $diety's sake, pick your battles. Do NOT let your ego get in the way of what's really important to you, which *should* be each other. You are going to fight from time to time but why fight over anything you don't really care about? It is ok to point out to your wife that her behavior has hurt your feelings and, believe it or not, most women respond very well to such an admission. If you know you aren't being rational but you feel strongly about some non-critical thing anyway, acknowledge that and *ask* for your spouse to cut you some slack. Usually they will unless you are really being ridiculous.
Some other stuff:
i'm nearly 100% certain that it's accurate.
I've known my wife for 20 years. Yeah, there's more than a little truth in it - but not for the reason people think. Argue the facts but take great care when arguing feelings. Most guys seem to have trouble separating the two.
Don't read too much into the books.
I've been married over 5 years now without major problems and have never read a relationship book in my life. If you have a good respectful relationship based on trust you'll be fine. Everyone fights sometimes though and each one of you will eventually need "you time" to relax and do what you want. Nothing wrong with it.
*Don't try to change each other*, I don't think thats the point of a relationship.
Aha, one last thing.... "try before you buy". If you haven't already, then move in together to see if you're really compatible. I know a few couples that tied the knot before that only to discover they could not live with each other and quickly divorced. Sad but true, it happens all the time.
They all sound like little things but figuring them out ahead of time heads off potential conflict.
I can say [REDACTED] anytime I want!
I've always said that a couple should appear as an indivisible unit in public. They should strive never to disagree in public, but only ever in private. But that's just old fashioned me. It's hard to do, but it sure is useful.
Things taste better when reheated on the stove or oven, and taste differently to some degree when reheated or cooked in the microwave.
The most common reason for that is the Maillard reaction. Microwave cooking has its uses but it rarely improves the taste of anything you cook.
Act like an adult. Both of you. All the time. Everything else is a variation of that. Don't be an asshole. Don't ignore your spouse. Don't put your wants ahead of their needs. Communicate. Don't spend money you both need for something that matters. Whatever.
Act like an adult. All the time. That's it.
Why the hell anyone would ever need a class to teach them this is beyond me.
is where many brilliant people gather to make comments...
I believe that is why he asks for some advise, I don't believe he is going to accept it just because is posted here, however some of the comments here are very interesting, you can see several points of view from people with different backgrounds and cultures(well maybe not).
Therefore If I wanted to ask people an advise for something is very important to me, I would like to read from someone who has maybe another _intelligent_ perspective.
Yes, maybe the best thing to do is ask to a relative or something but it doesn't hurt to ask in slashdot.
In my experiences, you're absolutely right that many guys feel a need to "be looked up to" - but that's sort of irrelevant, when it comes to figuring out some sort of formula for "relationship success". (EG. I think it's perfectly possible to have a relationship where both partners are essentially "equals", yet both look up to each other -- perhaps for very different reasons.)
Whether you're a guy who has a strong need to feel like your partner "admires some aspect of your personality" or not, you simply need to be paired up with a woman who has similar goals to yours, so you can work as a "team" getting through the "business of life". It's a difference in basic priorities that seems to destroy most marriages. (If the guy, for example, is putting in a lot of hours at work, with a "goal" of ensuring financial security for the family -- problems will develop if the woman doesn't value that goal. Maybe she'd prefer the guy be home more often to "share in household chores" or to "spend more time with the kids"? Or by the same token, if the woman is the primary wage-earner, the guy has to share in the idea that her working those hours adds more "value" to the relationship than having things a different way. Sometimes, I think it's not REALLY even as simple an issue as the man being upset because she "out earns" him and that's non-traditional.... It may be a "power and control" issue, where the primary wage-earner gets to "call the shots" about whether or not a new car is purchased, how much will be spent on going out to dinner or where/how a summer vacation is going to work, etc. etc. "He (she) who has the gold makes the rules." in other words.
Talk about money, in detail
Talk about sex, in detail
Live together first, if you haven't already.
And neither of you will change all that much, so little things you choose to ignore will become issues later.
I have been in a geek marriage for nearly 20 years.
I can kill my wife's character in a game and have she will have no hard feelings, and visa-versa.
Live together for a while if you aren't yet.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
What's so bad about not wanting to deal with someone's reaction? I'm sure they don't tell you the sex sucked right after you're done
Yes they do... then you have to do it again. See? Sometimes being honest is good!
You bet your ass I do... of course, this means I'm the "Best Friend" who goes on clothes shopping trips now, though...
I just don't get... eh, ugh... never mind. This post wasn't worth the research I put into it.
Don't worrry about the "geek" part. Worry about the marriage part. When I first got married, we were so happy with each other that we tried to accomodate each other in all kinds of ways. However, the willingness (and perhaps ability) to maintain a change contrary to your nature is hard. You (plural) may find yourself slipping out of agreed-upon changes back into old habbits - or compromise habbits - with the result that "settled issues" become unsettled. I'm not sure I can offer anything more than that. I was married for 14 years when my wife decided that her latent lesbianism meant that she couldn't live with me anymore. While I was married, I'd been struggling to maintain personal changes so much that I delegated much of my judgement about social and family things to her, and prioritized those above all else. The divorce was a terrible shock. Since then, by depending solely on my own judgement - no longer delegating it - I've been much happier. So, I'm not sure I can offer much more advice than what I've given directly and by example.
I am in a happy geek marriage at the moment so here's the best advice I can give (which is based on the best practices of my field).
Always make sure you have your design done before you begin implementation.
Meaning, make sure you guys discuss how you want your marriage to work before you actually get married. This includes, but is not limited, division of money (joint or separate bank accounts? what purchases are family and what are personal), division of chores (who cooks, who cleans, who calls for Chinese take out), where you both want to be in five years (in terms of career, locations and living space) and what future additions you want to make (pets, children, etc).
There's a lot of excitement in the impending union but if you're not looking a few years down the road, then when you get there, you're going to have problems. My husband is Catholic so we had to go through pre-cana which was mostly about how to live as a unit of two rather then living solo. Most of what we learned, I mentioned above. It's not just about far reaching goals (like I want a house or I want 2.5 cats/dogs/kids), it also is the day to day stuff that you do that now gets done with someone else by your side.
Money is usually the biggie (we have a joint account and separate personal accounts and divide our direct deposits from work among them) but it'll make your future together a lot easier if you actually think about it now.
Where are we going? AND WHY AM I IN THIS HANDBASKET!?!!
This is not cynical... really.
As someone currently going through a divorce (mostly amicable), I have come to the conclusion that starting at the end can be very instructional. Sit down and write your separation agreement. Who gets what part of the pension/401k/RRSPs etc. Who gets the house, does the house get sold? Who gets spousal support and with whom will the children live. Set aside $20,000 for lawyers if you have a small agreement and set aside $50,000 and 4 years for big disagreements. And yes, this is money that you will never see again, and gains you very little.
Write down moving restrictions around children, this means that you probably can't easily leave the city you separate in because it is unlikely that your children will want your near, and you will want to be near your children.
Set aside an extra $20,000 dollars for extra transportation since you won't be sharing a vehicle any longer.
If you make more than your spouse, how much will you pay in spousal support. Look forward to a dramatically reduced lifestyle, since about 1/2 of your pay will no longer be yours for at least the first year of separation and couple of years of spousal support.
Set aside money for your mid-life crisis. It really doesn't matter how much, but make sure it is a percentage of your current gross, and expect you both to spend it between your 34th and 44th years.. say 10% of gross for four years. This is valid for those getting a divorce or not.
Set aside now, $4000/year for couples/your counseling to help you deal with the grief of the failed relationship/ job/ life you will experience.
And finally, write up a prenuptial agreement with a lawyer now. Both of you. Pay a lawyer to help you both write it. Marriages are expenses, divorces are an endless expense, know the risks.
Oh.. and Congratulations!! *throws rice*
p.s. If you read this and say "oh.. this doesn't apply to us" think again.
Q. What is Calvin's monster snowman called? A. The Torment Of Existence Weighed Against The Horror of Non Being
Gottman does actual, scientific research on marriages. He provides "evidence-based" advice, and it's vastly different than your average self-help book. I learned about him from my father, a marriage and family therapist... my wife and I haven't had any really serious trouble in the 14 years we've been married, and I credit Gottman's books with a big part of that.
One of the counter-intuitive things Gottman says is that contrary to most advice books, "good communication" isn't necessary for a happy marriage. If a husband and wife don't respect each other, "good communication" will just enable them to communicate their disdain more effectively. And he found plenty of happy couples who had terrible communication by regular self-help standards. It's fascinating stuff.
Seriously, even if you want to keep it a standard-issue monogamous marriage, the skills necessary for success in having more than one partner at the same time in any way, shape or form are almost all really helpful in monogamous relationships as well (by far not only my opinion). These books have had to leave a lot of stereotypes behind because of the diversity of the audience, so your criticism should not apply to them.
The classic one is "The Ethical Slut" by Dossie Easton and Janet W. Hardy, but i also heard a lot of good things about "Opening Up: A Guide to Creating and Sustaining Open Relationships" by Tristan Taormino. Of course there are more, but those are my tips.
Good look, you two!
Two bits of advice:
My wife has a master's degree in counseling and insisted we go to couples counseling, even before we were engaged. She assumed we had problems even though we were both happy. In hindsight it was the smartest thing we could have possibly done, and I recommend it to everyone because we learned how to fight. You're going to "fight", but it doesn't have to turn into a fight. Learn to recognize when emotions are overriding logical thought. If she "just doesn't get it", perhaps you're saying it wrong, and vice-versa.
And learn to recognize when "it" matters more to her. She has to do the same, otherwise you never get what you want, and that's more important than you think. It might be a decision about what you want to eat for dinner or it could be that you want to spend your tax return on a vacation but she wants a new kitchen. And most importantly, if she wants to order a pizza for dinner but you're not wild about the idea, and you end up ordering pizza, she doesn't "owe" you for that unless you establish it when the decision is made. For instance, "Sure we can order pizza. Mind if we go out for beer and wings tomorrow?" It scales up.
As for finances, there may not be a universal answer. What works for us is a "joint" account and personal accounts. After the household budget is deposited into the joint account each month (plus extra for vacation and emergencies) the rest goes into our individual accounts. Believe it or not, we came up with that system after I wanted to buy her a surprise. I knew she would think it was too expensive and it's not much of a surprise when it shows up on your bank statement. We both get to shop without constantly feeling like we have to get it approved first.
Here you go,
http://miscellanea.wellingtongrey.net/2007/08/27/wellington-grey-gets-married/
Seems exactly the sort of thing you are looking for.
I went into my marriage committed to be married for the rest of whatever to her and only her. after 22 years we have 5 kids (one in college, the rest about 2 yrs apart). we enjoy each other's company, we have differences, we have fun. at the first we fought and she wanted out, but I wouldn't and it's worked out pretty good to this point with a pretty good outlook for the future. I love commitment. makes me laugh to see folks balk at commitment.if you love her, commit to her and make sure she's first in your life. things will be fine. but you better make sure she knows it!
We're as close as you can probably get to your situation. We were attracted to each other physically of course, but the fourth date we went on ended at my place watching Ninja Scroll. She is a lit snob BUT reads Sci Fi. She PLAYS WoW with me (me tank/she healer - symbolism anyone?). I actually read some of her books - and enjoyed them. We have very enjoyable conversations - about a wide range of topics. Basically like every other couple, make sure you have some common ground. I didn't really have that with my first wife - and it ended (in a friendly way) because we were basically roommates with benefits. With my second Wife, our fights are usually about money (this decreases over time as you adjust to each other habits) or - of all things - politics. We're both Democrats but I guess I'm not left enough sometimes (money again).
One piece of advice: NEVER question her intellegence/expertise in her chosen profession. A geeks identity == his/her knowledge about their chosen field. You will essentially be questioning who she is - or if she knows who she is.
Oh - and I have always been attracted to females more intelligent than myself - not sure why but I think they are a challenge :) In my case (and I'm biased of course) the resulting offspring are very intelligent as well (and really damn cute) so there are multiple benefits to marrying the intelligent, elusive female but you must stay on your toes. (I don't win as many debates as I'd like to, but she treats me well)
Did I mention communication? I can't stress how important it is to talk.
Well, First thing I'd say to you is to stop stereotyping. What you have is two people. Whatever flaws these books have, if they stereotype, then that's not really worth your time.
One of the most useful books about family communication models, is "PeopleMaking" by Virginia Satir. Yes: she has kind of a whacko hippie mentality, with utopian fantasies about how proper communication between people can save the world. But, that's just one of the chapters, and most of the rest of the book is solid, research-backed information on communication structures, and modes, and how to avoid pitfalls.
One strong caution: if one or both spouse's is an abuse victim, or has codependency or other personality issues, fear of intimacy, fear of abandonment, then no book will help you. A lot of what goes wrong in communications is caused by unhealthy coping mechanisms for insecurity, fear, and guilt, and these coping mechanisms are often habits that are very difficult to overcome. The troubled person needs to see a licensed therapist - and learn how to share vulnerable feelings and trust their partner, and themselves.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
People don't come with instruction manuals. You might actually have to listen to one another. :)
The key to good conversation is constructive criticism. You need to let her know that you can solve her problems.
http://xkcd.com/306/
Do not taunt happy fun wife.
-Billco, Fnarg.com
If you both love each other, why get married? Who are you proving it to? The government? Well, fuck them. God? Doesn't exist, so stupid reason.
I think marriage is a social control method anyway, like a lot of shit based around religion.
And as geeks, you'll understand the stats: 75% of all marriages end in divorce. All those people went into marriage thinking they loved each other, and would do till the end of their lives. 3/4 were wrong about that, and it's not even accurate to say that the remaining 25% are happy. (BTW, no reference for the 75% figure, it might be about 66% - either way, most marriages break down).
There's a major chance you're wrong about loving each other. If you are wrong, marriage just grossly complicates the break up. If you are right, then it doesn't matter one bit you're not married.
http://www.dont-marry.com/
Have you ever read Stranger in a Strange Land, perchance? I figure you'd like it.
Having been a SlashDot addict for many years, I expect that many of us here have various forms of ADHD or ADD. You may find that ADHD has interesting impacts on the dynamics of a marriage, most of which are not good. One of the prime challenges arises when the ADHD partner "hyperfocuses" on the non-ADHD spouse during courtship. This is similar to the "hyperfocus" we all have for the "new" game we just bought. In ADHD relationships, that "hyperfocus" usually disappears, right at the start of the actual marriage. The non-ADHD spouse then feels abandoned and betrayed, while the ADHD spouse remains clueless to the challenges faced by his/her partner, and the communications breakdown is exacerbated by some of the other ADHD symptoms. If you want examples of some of the horror stories (and the surprising similarities in many of these challenging relationships), and some great tips for avoiding or recovering from a disastrous relationship, go see the forum section of the adhdmarriage.com http://www.adhdmarriage.com/ website. This affect is so significant and real, that it made it to the Dr. Phil show not too long ago http://www.drphil.com/shows/show/1292/?preview=&versionID=).
(Based on my nine-year marriage to a wonderful anime geek, and observation of other couples)
This is mentioned in the RPG advice, but, I want to add a little bit.
Conflict is inevitable - and even healthy in a marriage of equals. The key is to stay focused on the conflict at hand - do not drag in other conflicts or hurts that are months or years old. Have some sort of statute of limitations. Just as important - stay adults! that is, no name calling or other demeaning tactics.
Forget the books, just watch a couple of seasons of The Red Green Show.
Um.. last time I checked - intelligence was the ability to learn - and is not the same thing as knowledge.
:) . Cherish the 80% of her you love, and overlook the 20% you don't like.
None of us are naturally good at being married - we have to learn how to do it. Some of that learning can come from books, but those books will not tell you exactly what your fiance is like nor will they tell her exactly what you are like. And this learning can take a lifetime.
As a geek - you know what it's like to study a subject and know it inside and out. Study your fiance. How does she receive love? It's likely different than how you receive love. Does she know about the male need for respect? Ya'll should read the book "Love and Respect" together - it's a HIGHLY valuable book that talks about a man's need for respect and a woman's need for love (and in this "love over all"/"men are stupid" culture - information like this is desperately needed).
Understand what your own needs are, and she should understand what her needs are. When you understand that and can communicate it lovingly/respectfully - you'll go a long way. If you've never been married before - it will take a while for you to really understand what your needs are.
And - this is SUPER important - it is not your job to make sure your needs are met. You should love your future wife unconditionally whether or not she shows love/respect to you. And she should do the same. Because if you are always reacting in-kind - you are in for a crazy cycle that can be very hard to get off. In the traditional marriage vows - we say "in sickness and in health, for better/for worse, forsaking all others, until we are parted by death" - you pledge your love regardless of the circumstances. And she does the same. If you do this (it is not easy to love unconditionally) - you will go very far in your marriage. If you meet her needs and she meets yours - you will both be very satisfied.
An important point too - don't look for advice from those that AREN'T married themselves! Would you ask a non-computer geek how you should go about fixing your computer? Um.. no.
Seek wisdom from those that you view as having a successful marriage. Get pre-marital counseling from a pastor or counselor. Read REAL books on marriage, not "self-help" trash, but those that really get at deep things. Talk to each other about what you've learned.
Others have mentioned you will mess up and given that - be quick to forgive and be slow to anger. You are NOT the same as each other - if you were, one of you would be irrelevant
Here's a few great books I suggest (in no particular order):
The Five Love Languages (there are variants of this.. I think one for married couples too)
Boundaries in Marriage (not what you would think from the title)
Love and Respect (my wife and I are going through this right now and it is helping us relate IMMENSELY)
The Total Money Makeover (this is Dave Ramsey's book on finances, but given that finances are #1 in reasons for divorce - make sure you are on the same page in that area)
Marriage on the Rock
It's a bit of a double-edged situation, but you need to create a balance of time with your SO and some "ME" time.
Not enough of either breeds resentment. Absence may make the heart grow fonder, but familiarity breeds contempt.
Make time for yourself and make time for your wife.
Balance and moderation are the keys to happiness.
Amazing how many posts mention all the same stuff and yet neglect a crucial part of any functional and fulfilling marriage. f*ck like rabbits and keep doing it no matter what. All the other advice is helpful and useful but if there is no sex, there will not be any happiness regardless of how courteous, considerate and caring you pretend to be.
My biggest gripe with my husband (a gaming geek to the highest degree) has always been that he does not keep an eye on the time. EVER. When he is gaming or hanging with his friends, he never checks the clock, and it results in more fights than anything else. He's also unable to multitask with anything BUT gaming, and tries very hard to lock in his emotions. I've found that it's common with nearly every gaming guy I've met.
I have a lot of the same problems, but typically in the total opposite direction - I constantly check the clock, multitask in everywhere but the bedroom, and my emotions are very... er, open.
My suggestions?
Work on making sure your schedules are fair to both of you - and if she asks that you be home a a specific time, set an alarm! A lot of the time, women want their guys to get home for "surprises" and if you're late, it can ruin everything.
If you need some time to hang out and game without her bugging you, TELL HER. Say that you need alone time, that you're exhausted or whatever, and then make arrangements to do something fun or private with her later to make up for it.
Don't criticise her for her tastes or make fun of other people with the same tastes. It can leave a negative feeling and build up.
Generally, the same rules apply to her. She has to be understanding of your geekiness and vice-versa, but you both need to make sure that you set aside time for non-geeky together time - even if you're talking about geek stuff - like dinner out or something.
But yeah, those are some of the major things I would suggest. Make sure you listen to each other and don't be ashamed to attend marriage counseling if there's trouble. Sometimes, they can really help.
that's never the reason for bad sex. good sex doesn't even need a penis.
I'm out of a serious relationship, and looking back I agree with the above.
I had made the mistake of literally using the ball-n-chain excuse to get out of something I myself didn't want to do. My girl was standing there when I said it. She didn't appreciate it at all. NEVER make her an excuse.
On the other side. She stopped telling me things that she knew would make me mad because she didn't want to upset me. TRANSLATION - She didn't care about me enough to deal with me being upset with her.
Relationships fail. It happens. The reason above is why we're not still friends.
I'm a computer programmer married to an artist/librarian. When we got married (okay, eloped) about 14 years ago, what we did is, we looked around us and identified people who we considered to have successful marriages. And then we went to them and asked them how they did it.
Were there certain common themes? Sure there were. I'm not going to post them here, because what you really need to do is go identify people you know that you folks consider to be successful at this, and go talk to them.
"Of course they should tell you the sex should be improved,just you know ... timing is everything."
No, delivery is everything. (No pun intended.) Tell her what you liked, followed with "We should do more of that." As time goes on you can do more of the good things and drop the less enjoyable activities. With that said, a marriage is about far more than sex. A few things to remember are:
Always remember that you can hack on your Linux box anytime.
If you ignore your hobby/passion for two years it will still be there.
If you ignore your partner for two years they will not still be there.
Sometimes it is OK to go do your own thing, but plan it. (IE: Tuesday is do your own thing day.)
Always stop what you are doing when your partner speaks to you.
Sometimes you will have to do what your partner wants to do, and sometimes they have to do what you want to do.
Lastly go out and buy a copy of "How to Win Friends and Influence People." read it at least three times. Then at least once a year for the rest of your life.
If I were God, wouldn't I protect my churches from acts of me?
You're going to get a whole lot of "modern" advice to your question on this forum I am sure. I am a Software Engineer with a BA (and a genius IQ) and my wife is a Research Scientist with an Earned PhD. The key to your wonderful and happy marriage is the same as it would be for the jock/cheerleader stereotypes that you mention. Beyond a selfless dedication to one another you will find that your wife's highest need is security. She needs to know that you're love is unconditional and you devotion to her will be demonstrated by your finding ways to show that you cherish her. Do that and you will find out that she will put up with an awful lot of your geek-driven activities. OTOH, what you need most is respect and admiration from her. If she will be extra thoughtful to show that admiration by listening to your struggles with work, tech, etc. and mention that you are handsome and smart, etc. you will find yourself having nearly unbounded energy to find ways to do things that mean something special to her. My wife likes flowers, but never when she is mad at me (which is pretty rare). BTW, learn to be the one who apologizes first. Also the answer is ALWAYS "no that doesn't make you look fat" period. Tell her often you love her and if she ever asks you whether you still do, that is never the time for diliberation. The right answer is "yes, with all my heart". You'd be surprised how that will make her truly beautiful in your sight. Also, never fall for the "oh don't get me anything for my birthday, anniversary, etc.". They always want you to do things because you love them, not because they compelled you to do it. Start there and you'll be just fine, Geek or not.
Be More, Be Manly, The Manly Geek Ubergeek Extraordinaire Blogger: www.manlygeek.com/blog Podcaster: podcast.man
Yes dear.
I will second your disagreemnt on the bachelor party. As someone who has been married only 2 months now, I have lived through the fall-out from my bachelor party. I got in big trouble after my bachelor party. I was not unfaithful, I behaved myself. I had strippers at my party, but my fiance said she was ok with it (she had stippers at her party). The reality is, women are insecure. She says she's ok with it, but she's really not. She even thinks she's ok with it (i.e. this is not one of those tests, she really does want you to go out and have a good time), but when the reality of it all hits, she can't deal with it. But as I learned in talking to friends and colleagues who were already married, it's not just about whether you saw strippers or not. If there is one take-away to remember it is simply that no matter what happens, no matter what you do, you are going to be in the dog house the next day. You could be on your best behavior. Your bachelor party could consist of going to church. You are still going to get in trouble. You didn't do anything wrong, but you're in trouble. A colleague of mine had a fairly tame bachelor party that just consisted of going to dinner and some bars. Someone took a picture of him with another girl. His wife saw the picture and was pissed. Make no mistake, nothing happened with that girl. She was a random girl that posed for a picture, no hook-ups or anything, but he still got in trouble. The only sure fire way to not get in trouble is to not have a bachelor party at all. But what's the fun in that. This is really your last opportunity to go out and have a ridiculous night out with the boys. Mine was incredible and I know my buddies and I will be laughing our asses off about that night when we're in our eighties. But now that I'm married, I won't be striving for a repeat performance. That is a sure fire way to get yourself divorced, or at the very least a firm kick in the groin.
"It's not whether you win or lose, it's how drunk you get." -- H. J. Simpson
I would say that the "secret" to our marriage is having Christ at the center of it. During year seven, we almost split up and got a divorce. It was that year that we decided to get right with God and go to church. It is my firm belief that saved our marriage. Why? Because the teachings of Christ very much apply to marriage but one in particular: Selfless service.
If you want your marriage to work, you have to think of it not as a dominating man vs a submissive woman. No no no! It's more like a partnership where the both of you are back-to-back, each looking out for the other's back. You don't worry about your needs...she does that for you. She doesn't worry about her needs...you do that for her. You find ways to serve her and she finds ways to serve you! THIS is what a long-lasting and fulfilling marriage is all about!
To do this, you have to completely trust each other and communicate what you like. As the years go by, you'll KNOW what she likes and she will of you as well. The minute you start worrying about your own needs, you're on the path to divorce!
I would also counsel you to wipe the thought of other women out of your mind! You can't serve her and mess around on her at the same time! It's simply not possible. If you see a sexy woman, just don't say anything. Why? Because it's not of service to her...you'll only make her feel insecure and unloved. That's not serving her needs.
I don't know if you're a church-going person or even a Christian. However, this principle will definitely help you keep your marriage strong throughout the years. I would also advise you to consider reading some Christian literature on marriage so you get a better idea of the principles that make marriage work, even if you're not a Christian. Wisdom is wisdom, regardless of where it comes from!
I wish you and your new bride a long and prosperous life together!
Parent was modded funny, but they should really be modded Insightful. When my wife says she thinks she is gaining weight or whatever, my response must ALWAYS be that she is thin, etc. NO MATTER WHAT. If she gains a few pounds, I have to reassure her with "you were wearing heavier clothes this time" or "it was a different time of day", etc. To encourage her to lose weight, I have to constantly remind her that she's doing it for herself, not for me. But you know what? You best believe I'd like it if my wife were more fit. You best believe I don't like it when she gains weight. However, I also know that self esteem can be a fragile thing. Being honest about those little things doesn't help ANYONE. I know because I am exactly the same way. I can see in the mirror when I'm overweight, I don't need her telling me. She knows that. So what happens when I look in the mirror and say "Jeez, I need to ditch this spare tire", she doesn't say "Yep, and that chunky ass too while your at it", she says "no you don't, you're fine." I know she doesn't really mean it and that she'd like me to be more fit, but you know what? It feels good anyway. Don't kid yourself. Honesty can be a very bad negative.
Oh, and if you ever think it'd be a smart idea to be honest and say to your wife "Wow, the receptionist at work is smokin!" you deserve the upcoming divorce for your sheer stupidity.
Women have a duality about them, a wave (sex object) and particle (higher intelligence) duality. You must learn to see them as both. And always remember that physics solves everything.
OK, there is a difference between lies, brutal honesty, and honesty with tact you know... As in (keeping the bad sex example):
Lie: That was mindblowing! Best sex evar!!! Nothing could be improved, you're perfect in bed, honey!
Brutal honesty: That farking sucked, I hated it, I'd rather go screw a badger than have sex like that again! Get the hell off me so I can get to my porn and I hope it's better next time!
Honesty with tact: That could have been better honey, what'd you think? Maybe if you'd moved just so... Maybe if I moved just so... Let's try this again, and figure out what works...
"goodbye and hello, as always" ~Prince Corwin, from Zelazny's Amber series
You have to work at marriage. The two of you will not have 100% overlap in preferences and habits (and if you do now, you probably won't in 10 years) which means that you need to compromise. That means both of you. This means that you need to talk honestly about what bothers you and what doesn't. (And it bugs me when $wife says "I feel" when she means "I think", but I can deal with it...)
An earlier poster wrote "The simple fact that either of the SOs can walk away, with (nearly) no legal commitments holding them back contributes greatly to respecting each other and acknowledging each others sacrafices that where done for a relationship." I completely disagree. If you think like this, you are thinking that marriage is a temporary arrangement, which leads you to continually make value judgments about whether to stay or go. If that's what you want, fine.
If what you want is marriage for life, then you need to treat it like that. Failure is not an option. Eying up the green grass over the fence is not an option. Do not even allow yourself to think about other options. You are married to her, she is married to you, and you are both going to work to make the best job of it you can.
Your marriage probably won't be perfect - most marriages aren't - but if you split up for some garbage reason like "I wasn't feeling fulfilled" or "we grew apart" then you have failed, and most likely you will continue to fail, and finish up dying alone.
Yeah, I used to play the bullshit game of responding to loaded questions like, "Do you mind...," and, "Would you like to...," but then my wife would get pissed if I agreed and then didn't seem happy while doing it even though I wouldn't bitch. So now I just say, "fuck no," when she asks me something like that or does that weird thing that people do where they ask twelve questions in some bizarre chain of logic that is supposed to somehow end up getting the actual question answered. Although she still slips on occasion, she's gotten much better about using useful questions, like, "Will you do something for me...," and accepting that there are just some tasks that I won't do while shitting rainbows and singing showtunes.
1. Treat your SO equal; no less, no more. 2. Having extra ounce of patience helps at times. 3. Don't spend too much money on wedding. 4. Women, geek or non-geek are derived from the same base class. Even if you don't like/need/care (...) you might need to implement some pure virtual functions for smooth functioning. Good luck
Money issues are one of, if not the, leading cause of downfalls of marriages. All of the advice on communication is absolutely necessary and good, but I haven't seen anyone bring up money. One key to any long-term relationship is to be on the same page fiscally with your SO. If they are a big spender and you are a saver, then you will either need to work out boundaries, rules, etc., or be unhappy. I've found that usually it helps to just be on the same page from the get-go, but that's just me.
I think that is pretty much my idea of an ideal marriage, and is how my wife and i exist as well. Like anything, open communication and giving each other space are keys to co existing. That is really the only trick, being respectful to one another, not making your partner cease activities they previously enjoyed before the marriage, and being honest about things. I find that every few years my wife and I have had to re evaluate our relationship and talk it out.
We have had some tough issues to work through, but the times we have suffered for it are when we both internalize and step well clear of our trouble area and stick to the easy, fun places. Every time we pick at the sore, sometimes we get into heated words, but at the end of those nights are usually when we are closest, and have taken huge strides to eliminating the sores, all of which would have grown worse if we had let them sit and fester.
But that's pretty much life. In my opinion marriage is a pretty unrealistic promise. I got married at 24, and here I am, telling someone how things are going to be between us for another 50+ years (hopefully). That was twice as long as I've exist, and even less years that I was 'aware' of the world. A lot can happen to change a person in a year, or even a month, how can you realistically predict that you will still love each other in 50 years? You can't, you can only be optimistic about it and commit to trying.
And lets be realistic... how interesting is one person for years and years down the line? I think over time they become a rock that you need/use to weather the storm together, but you've been clinging it to it for so long you know every nook and cranny. It has the comfort of home and familiarity, but everybody likes to travel for a few weeks at a time. Marriage is in a sense battling against our nature. I know some couples have worked that out, but still... it's a losing battle.
I think many people don't take the time to at least establish a solid, realistic foundation for their marriage, and instead get caught up in the fact that our society sort of pushes out this idea that there is something wrong if you are 30+ and not married. I think people get wrapped up in the idea that they need to be married and have this happily ever after ending, they don't stop and take a real hard look at how each person treats each other in the relationship.
Long term relationships are HARD. Look at your family, its great and sad all at the same time, right? Not easy, but all you can do is keep talking to each other, let each other have a little bit of space, and keep interested in one another, and hopefully, it'll stretch out over the years.
It kinda does for guys.
http://www.amazon.com/Forever-Day-Invitation-Marriage-Lifetime/dp/0578014297/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1249495283&sr=8-2
...and here's my best advice:
Be prepared for her to not get the reference on your jokes, and vice versa. And don't write her love poems in perl.. She won't get it.
Try to read a book she likes and discuss it with her. If she wants to reciprocate this, recommend a book she might actually like (i.e. probably not Cryptonomicon, despite its awesomeness)
Figure the rest out for yourself! You're geeks, that's what you do!
Marriage is great for the female but a very bad deal for the male. Keep all your relationships with women strictly professional and you'll be happy for the rest of your life (and better off financially).
You want to share your experiences/secret, etc. with someone? Bond with your male buddies. You'll be able to share far more with them that with a female.
After marriage, all the things she used to do to please you sexually will stop. After a few years of sex becoming you serving her and you saying "how about me?" she will call you a dirty old man for wanting her to do all the things she used to do with enthusiasm.
Don't do it. Don't do it.
Well, you're sort of right... but there is this expectation which is maybe endemic to the Midwest USA rather than a more general comment about marriage in general... but there is an opinion that once married, children are the next logical step and a step that cannot be missed. Thus the social weight that I refer to in the first instance was primarily the pressure we were then under to have children after we had married even though we intended no such thing.
There's also an opinion that a married couple should both lead lives that are totally intertwined... that one partner cannot have friends who do not know the other partner... or perhaps do not like the other partner for whatever reason. This was a big problem in my second marriage as my ex then took it upon herself (with her parents support) to excise those people from my life who she either didn't know, didn't care to know or who didn't care for her... even if those friends pre-dated her being a part of my life.
Perhaps I'm tarring the entire experience of marriage with an overly broad brush, but out of all the relationships I've had that lasted more than a month or two, every one of them with few notable exceptions have stood outside of the opinion that I have of marriage.
It's not helped by the fact that if you're unhappy in a marriage, you're forced into a position where you must work things out or go through an expensive and deeply unsettling legal process. It also leads to unrealistic expectations on the part of one or both partners in the event that things go bad. I can't say more without being specific about my circumstances (which I don't want to be in this open forum) but those expectations made working things out impossible because those expectations could never be met.
Another social weight that is particularly a problem in the part of the world I live (Midwest USA) is that this is still a very sexist society I live in. As such, my ex wife went from being identified as an individual person, to being identified by all around as "xxx's Wife"... and she was effectively forced into my shadow by people around us who felt that since I was the man in the relationship, I was in charge... a situation I neither desired nor appreciated. The alternative... if a woman speaks up and becomes independently identified by those around... the husband is automatically an "uninvolved deadbeat". It's a no-win situation.
Generally, I have to say that my relationship with my girlfriend now is far healthier than any married relationship I ever had. Part of that is the fact that she's an independent woman, I'm an independent man, and if we ever decide that the relationship's not working for us, either of us can take the door at any time with no fear of violating a social contract of any kind. Sure, it may not be for everyone and may not even be "acceptable" to everyone... but it works for me.
And, sorry, but I have to disagree with your disagreement. My wife goes to strip clubs with me. We've been married 4 great years now.
The simple fact is, no two people are the same. We can give all the advice you want, but when it comes down to it, you have to live within each others boundaries. For me, that means paying more attention to her than I do other things. For you, it means making sure she isn't jealous.
Some of them have to literally be retaught.
Go on, slip her a red pill.
Karma fed to this user will be promptly burnt. Be warned; be wary.
This is all my opinion of course... but I do not think marriage should be a surrender of things that existed before marriage in the relationship. I know it seems crazy now, but in 2 years, 4 more years, 8, 16.. do you really think you will never, ever, want to go out drinking with your friends again? That has to end? I would assume before you got married, you still went out with the boys, but of coarse being in a relationship you aren't going to get all crazy with another woman... this should be the same before and after the relationship. I mean, think about it, by your words, for longer then you have been alive, all those things you enjoyed doing are now closed to you forever? Is that what marriage is supposed to be?
I think your partner having suspicions and beingupset with you is a product of your partners psychology. It could be something you did in the past, or something an EX of hers did in the past, or hell a friend's ex did to the friend, and you have to pay for it. Trust me, not all women are suspicious and jealous of their husbands.
My wife and I get odd looks sometimes. I have a bunch of female friends. We cuddle and lay on top of each other, we joke around and slap asses, we have a good time being friends. When my wife is around, I tone it down, and spend just as much time flirting with her as I do with my other female friends. Sometimes I go out with just my female friends for dinner. My wife's best friend is a guy, they go out every week for food, then come back and we all play rock band together.
I tell this to people they think there's some problem in our relationship because of it. "I would NEVER let my husband do that." "You LET your wife go out with a dude by herself?!?". Odd looks if we go do separate things on weekends, she goes to hang with her friends and I go hang with mine.
Thing is, we have this crazy thing called trust and honesty. It is a pattern that's worked for 8 years and still works very well. At the end of the day between the two of us we are the people we want to spend the most time with, and I think a big reason for that not changing is allowing each other to trust one another.
Each person is different, and each person reacts differently to marriage and their partners in a relationship, and unfortunately, the older we get the more jaded I think we all become. Either that should tell us something about ourselves, or society as a whole.
As someone who is looking to get himself into a similar situation (I'm a linux/programming geek, my girlfriend is a language geek), I find it very strange to not only find such topics being openly discussed on /., but finding information that's helpful? Honest? About something other than boobs? I'm shocked. Let me know when the real /. is back. Until then, I'll bookmark this, and download it after a couple days in case it "disappears" to save face.
As for my (significantly insignificant, IANAMP) two cents, I must agree with several people above - your significant other has to be someone that you are completely honest with, and someone that can be completely honest with you, no matter what. That's the only way it's going to work. It's not going to be all happy all the time, but neither is life.
You all have Oo.o and Firefox, so get World Wind.
"Love is never enough" is the book to get (http://www.amazon.com/Love-Never-Enough-Misunderstandings-Conflicts/dp/0060916044)
I am a computer geek, my wife was a literary geek. We were married for 20 years. Here are the things that I would recommend that you may want to look out for:
1.She will always, deep down, believe that she is smarter than you, and that your pursuits are pseudo-intellectual.
2.In time she will become convinced that she is being repressed, as all women are repressed by all men.
3.She will resent the fact that your technical expertise will mean that you will always make more money than she will.
5.She will come to hate the fact that she has to come to you for help with technical problems (see #1 above).
6. Over time, the above problems will fester until she becomes bitter, verbally abusive, and impossible to live with.
7. When you do finally decide that you cannot live with her any longer (and you will -- yes, you will) she will become angrier and more paranoid than you can imagine. She will become firmly convinced that she is a victim, that you lied to her and repressed her throughout the marriage, and that she is now entitled to her pound of flesh. This will be costly. Very costly.
My advice is to steer her towards the idea that marriage is an anachronism that has outlived its usefulness.
Oh, and read my sig...
Proverbs 21:19
Hell you don't even have to say it was bad, just suggest something that might be more fun. "Oh, you know what would be cool, is next time could you bend your ankle around your head from the RIGHT and put the monkey over on the LEFT of the bed, that would be sweet I think, what do you think?"
I met my wife 18 years ago. She's a literary geek and I am a computer geek. We are in much the same situation as you are. We been together constantly for over 10 years now. You are asking about pointers but you first need to know that each marriage is unique and thus one person's advice may not be in line with yours. Given that lawyer talk, here is my advice.
1) You need not be truthful all the time. I can just hear all the shouts all across the internet, but let me say this. No one is truthful 100% of the time. The thing is, you need to be truthful to yourself and truthful to your wife when it counts. Little white lies are fine but if you know a lie will cause a major uproar when found out, then you shouldn't being lying about it. Never lie about the big stuff, but lying about staying late at work when you are really playing LAN games at work after hours is ok(as long as you aren't fired for it). Buffering the truth with lies to make stuff easier to go down is also fine, but be sure its not lying to make things easier on yourself rather than on her.
2) Talk to each other. You both need to listen and talk about what interests you. If you don't find it interesting, that's fine, but make sure she understands, that while the subject isn't particularly grabbing you, you do want her to talk about it because it she interests you. On the other hand, fair is fair. You should be able to talk about stuff that she isn't super interested in. As an example, my wife's a big Yaoi (google it) nut, I am the opposite. She can go on for hours and she knows I am not into Yaoi. She tempers her conversation and I listen. On the other hand, I am a big gaming nut and she listens to me on though she doesn't really game anymore. Even though we do not share obsessions, we understand what each other likes and loves. We temper our conversations so as to not annoy the other (she doesn't go very vivid on some of the stuff she likes, I don't go into the boring minutiae). When it comes time to give gifts, I know what she's gonna like, and she gets me gifts she thinks I will like. We may not be part that segment of our lives, but we are still involved.
3) You will argue. (People who don't fight about stuff are lying to each other too much.) We argue, sometimes about silly little things, sometimes not. Always fight fair, always try to cool things to a logical level. Try not to interrupt each other. If she interrupts you, you should note that you didn't interrupt her and you need to speak too. This is harder than it sounds but try. One annoying tack my wife does is to make her argument go so long you can't address each item. When that happens, I stop the argument and put a time limit on arguments and rebuttals. It sounds silly, but it works. If you or she are starting to throw name calling into the arguments or you are punctuating your arguments physically, whether its foot stomping or yelling at the top of your voice, be the bigger man and say you need to take a break for 5 minutes to cool down. You're not ending the argument, you just want to cool the emotions down a bit. Take those 5 minutes, and take a break, don't stew. After 5 minutes, come back to the argument but reiterate in a calm collected voice without name calling, yelling, or derogatory comments, why you feel you are right. Include the points she was making and explain why you feel they are wrong. Don't just say, "because that's stupid".
4) Be thankful. It seems when you get close, you stop saying thanks for doing nice things. You stop complimenting her when she looks pretty. You stop taking her out on dates. This is wrong and should never stop. You don't need to go out on dates every night, but plan on going out once a week. It doesn't have to be a grand outing either, whether its going shopping together, out to the movies, out to dinner, just go out and do something together that you both like and can talk about. Thank the person who made dinner even if it tasted like boiled leather. My wife would say things like, "Hon, this ta
I read about this questionnaire that helps decide how ready you are, what spots to work on; the 2nd link is another reference to it:
http://www.relate-institute.org/
http://griggs.byu.edu:8232/Article.aspx?a=148
A Free, fast personal organizer for touch typists: onemodel
Actually, 2 geeks being married, even if they're geeky about different things, works well. Everyone who says that just spending time in the same room, even if you aren't talking, is right. My husband and I set up a shared office room where we both work on things. We also try to draw each other into our particular passions. I read whenever I have time, so he got me to start reading e-books (cheaper and less requirement for constantly expanding the army of bookshelves). I've gotten him to read more. We chat online when we're working and when we're at home on laptops - that seems to break the train of thought for us less than actually speaking - I guess that's come from work training for both of us. But that works, too. We've actually planned most of our child's best surprises while he was in the room with us. And find the things that you both enjoy and do them often. For me and mine, that started as cooking and then moved to writing about cooking. We're actually working on a book together now that someone may actually publish. Confession - this is my second marriage. My first husband was also a geek, but the big difference is that he wasn't willing to try anything he didn't already like and he didn't want me looking at anything he was doing. Not talking turned into too much of a habit, and eventually we found out that we really didn't like anything about each other anymore. Don't let that happen, and you'll be fine.
Being a geek that's starting in the process of divorce, let me give you this advice.
The book stuff will help. But what will keep you together and lead to happiness is complete honesty (phrased appropriately, of course) and keeping open your lines of communication. If you stop talking about your hopes, dreams, and desires together, even the small ones, then distance will creep in and slowly may drive you apart before you realize it.
Be mindful of the things she tells you, and make sure she knows how you feel as well. You don't need to have a lot of common interests or goals for a marriage to work, but you do need to understand each other's feelings, and know where problems lie. That way you can tackle them together, and strengthen your relationship.
As a real live girl I have to tell you that if you ever "let me win" at anything you're history, you patronizing remnant of the jock-cheerleader era!
Yes dear.
Rules that that work for us... 1. My wife always gets the new computer -- one every year to year and a half -- so buy based on what you want on your desk in that time frame. 2. My wife always gets the new iPod -- same rules as above, except I buy new headphones when I inherit her old one. 3. Any new toy I get, she gets something, when we went to a high def TV, I just factored in the cost of the PS3 (my wife is a system gamer, I game on PC's). 4. We always have at least a couple no tech nights a week -- use your imagination. 5. When in doubt, realize that it is far easier to justify a new toy for her rather than for yourself, then you replace them more often. Overall mantra - would you rather be happy with the hand me down toy or sleeping on the couch?
Number one indicator of divorce - insistence on coed combined bachelor/bachelorette parties. My theorem has never failed on me (at least for my circle of acquaintances). If a couple is not secure enough for one night apart, well...
If..em...entertainment is desired and your mate's approval is needed - just buy one for each other. That way, you're speaking with your wallet and gives the buyer a moment to reflect on their decision and will hopefully decrease some of the "reneging" that you're speaking of.
There are a huge number of yeast infections in this county. Probably because we're downriver from the bread factory.
What part of the midwest are you from? I'm from Ohio and have never come across any of the things you talked about. Sure, you get the mom / grandma going "when are you going to have kids" but everyone I've ever known never had a problem when they'd just say "We're not planning on it" or "We're not planning on it any time soon".
I have known people who got involved with girls like your second wife - but seeing as these were people who came from all over the country, it's more a matter of some people (guy or girl) being a controlling fsck than anything about marriage or regional culture.
It seems to me that all of your problems you had didn't stem from marriage or local culture, but from being with girls with unrealistic expectations, girls who were control freaks, or family / friends who just don't know how to mind their own business. I'm sorry that things went so badly for you (as a fellow nerd and man, I can say I've had plenty of girls screw me over), and I hope things go better for you in the future.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
If you are so caught up in obtaining your own pleasure that you don't notice if your wife/girlfriend was even CLOSE to an orgasm, then maybe you DO need to hear "You know honey, that really sucked. I hope you do better next time" a few times.
Seriously, it's ok every now and then to get caught up in the moment, but afterwords, go down on her (assuming she likes that and most do), or ask her if there's something SHE wants to do.
The only valid advice is that there is no valid advice.
People are not machines, you can't open a book, like if it was a manual, and find all the pearls of wisdom there.
Marriage is like any other human relationship (really) and for that reason no amount of advice will prepare you about how to progress that relationship.
Stop reading, start thinking and feeling.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
There are plenty of otherwise intelligent people who don't communicate well or manage conflict well. A book on those topics would definitely be beneficial.
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
these idiotic bachelor parties/stag dos that people go on right before they tie the knot (talk about laying the groundwork for a divorce before you're even married) ..
Totally depends on the situation. For me, I had a bachelor party, and have been to several since being married, and it has not posed any problem (my wife had a bachelorette party and has been to her share as well).
The reason this didn't cause problems is that we both know what the other is comfortable with. My wife has never asked me what I did at any of these parties, but if she did, I would answer openly and honestly, because I know that I did not do anything that she would object to.
It's all a matter of trusting and being trustworthy. My wife and I also remain friends with some of our respective exes. Does this pose a problem? No, because we are totally transparent about it. If one of us started sneaking around, that would cause problems!
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
Treat your wife like a human being who is your intellectual equal. Communicate your needs and desires, don't sweat the small stuff, and don't go to bed angry.
This December *my* literary geek wife and I will celebrate our 25th wedding anniversary. Obviously, I wasn't a Linux of computer gaming geek 25 years ago and neither was she. We did both share a love of literature.
We developed a simple strategy to remain connected. We tried when possible to at least read in the same room together, or at least within sight of one another, and we would read at least 1 out of three books that the
other selected for themselves. That way, we always had something available to discuss with each other about their interests, and I can tell you that across time, many of our traded books have lead to such serendipitous
discoveries for the other partner that this long ago became less a chore than a genuine pleasure to gain insights about each other and to constantly deepen what we know of each other and the things each of us care about.
Someone's library is like a road map to how they became who they are. If you both know and love one another's road maps, your relationship will always know where it's going.
Around 1990, another curious thing happened in our marriage. A few books I read about hardware and computing lead me off into a new career. When she read a few of my books, she discovered a sincere interest in
software, too. And by 1996, *both* of our interests lead us to be permanently employed by and entertained by the IT industry, each in our own IT silos. In other words, our mutual readings ultimately lead us serendipitously
to mutual interests and opportunities we could share and which have improved our family's interpersonal relationship, our career paths, our economic status, and even our shared recreational opportunities. Our rewards are that the more you make the effort to bridge the gap to share at least *some* of your partner's interests, the more inevitable it will be that you find those which you may share a consuming interest in with one another, and the less likely it is that you will lose the ability to communicate effectively with one another and grow apart. Honestly, like priming a well pump, the effort you put it is only at the beginning. Once you start, it won't take
nearly as much to keep going and for the mutual rewards to fill both of you till you're overflowing. Forget the relationship books. Just keep talking to one another about what you both want and enjoy, then find a way to
share some of it together. That connection will keep you from drifting apart.
My wife gets pissed if I watch porn.
Well, if I watch it without her, anyway. As long as I invite her, she's cool with it.
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
I used up all my mod points earlier, but this is definitely insightful. You can't rely on what anybody else wrote, and you have to be willing to adapt things more or less on the fly. It's more like the old days of computing, when no two boards would work quite the same. Figure out what works for the two of you and do it.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Yes dear
I think that this video says it all then... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-m6JDYRFvk
Lookup the book "A fortress for Well-being". There's also "Pure gold - Enhancing character qualities in marriage". Designed for a certain community, but solid ideas regarding commitment.
The Proper Care and Feeding of Marriage.
So things got cooler for a few days, he reached the conclusion of his thought, and she eventually learned that he was glad he made the decision he did. I'm guessing she was reminded of something she didn't like, but that laid the foundation for their growing closer together.
Sounds positive to me. A few days coolness, in exchange for that lovely feeling that you know you're partner will talk to you about their thoughts and let you in on their dreams and meanderings, even things they're not sure if you'll like. Then you have something to really talk about.
If I were in a position like that woman's I'd much rather hear what he was thinking than just hear the "conclusion".
But then again I'm not him or her.
It's not nice to get a slap like that, but it will improve the sex life if it's honest and you're actually compatible.
Consider it a starting point - "oh, I thought you were enjoying that.... let's try something else next time... tell me how you'd really like it..."
The real problem here is that you were awake long enough to hear her. Remember the steps. Orgasm. Roll. Sleep.
The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work doesn't make too many assumptions about you (it looks like there is another edition out which is probably identical except for the cover). And as a nice bonus, it's based on actual research, not useless psychobabble dreamed up by somebody based on theories that were based on theories by Freud. Freud's a bad foundation, almost anything built upon his work comes down in under three decades. Anyway, this book doesn't assume that you are stupid, willfully ignorant, a neanderthal, or any of that. Most of the stuff by John Gottman is good, it's all based from his love lab, an actual scientific setup where they study couples. Just as an example of how amazing they are, they have figured out how to predict the permanence of a marriage after watching one argument and interviewing the couple for about 15 minutes (!).
I think this is right, plus I'd add one more: ask HER. And, ask *yourself*. Making a relationship work is a collaboration between two people, and those two people know how they work better than anyone else does. Books - particularly self-help books - are sold to fearful people who hope that a simple recipe will make everything work for them.
In any case, OP is asking the wrong question. You're in a relationship NOW. What makes that relationship work? The same things that make it work - and that would continue to keep it working - are the things that will make a marriage work. Getting married doesn't change the people, all it does is add a paper contract to a pre-existing relationship.
People who expect marriage to change themselves and/or their partner are destined for grief.
I stole this sig from someone cleverer than me.
Mod parent up!
Bring back Sirius Punk!
I like it when i am told that it wasn't that good, because usually I get pointers which makes it better the next time. You can't improve something if you don't know whats wrong with it.
"Infecting minds with my own memetic virus, one post at a time." Ultimape
Athletic alpha male and submissive cheerleader-- lol. You are talking about sexual role play-- not marriage. Maybe check your sources? If the cover of the books portray an image of a lewd nature on the front then you are probably looking at the wrong material.
Zap: "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is spongy and bruised."
my god man.. have you seen how geeks can fight over big things, like linux distros, coding styles and typefaces? now crank that up to two peopel forced to cohabitate and then any little pedantic thing can be the source of legendary flame wars.
I mean, lets face it, we don't fight fair, now can you imagine getting your arm twisted by a literary geek "Admit Caslon Pro pwns Helvetica or no sex!"
yeah, that's the stuff of nightmares.
In the Philippines, there is no divorce, so one marries for life. How does one stay married for life? 1. Everyday, remember your vows: to have and to hold, from this day forward, for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health, until death parts you, and thereto you promise each other your faithfulness. 2. Have many children. If you have many children, you'll be too busy raising them to want to fight. Besides, geeks can afford them. 3. Teach each other your interests: literature and programming? Teach your children and learn with them, literature and programming. You can't go wrong with these two. 4. Always look at the good side of people, specially your husband/wife. Forgive their mistakes. Talk to each other. Make love often, in order to get many children. 5. Share in the household chores. Who says that the wife must do the cooking and the laundry? The husband can do that too. 6. Every so often, go out on a date with wife/husband. If you want, bring your children. 7. If you are religious, teach your children about God and your religion. Pray together with your children.
I concur, but I sure don't like such a slap in the face as having an orgasm and then hearing "You know honey, that really sucked. I hope you do better next time"
What hurts the feelings, in my opinion, is when you've been doing something they don't like for a whole month, THEN they tell you. You gotta be honest and open enough to address issues as they come up. It's also important to tell the person what they do that you DO like, or you run the risk of paralyzing them with insecurity.
But the way to approach it is say, "I don't like it much when you do X, could you spend more time doing Y? I really like that."
Please stop stalking me, bro.
Here is some good general purpose advice for marriages....
http://watchtower.org/e/archives/index.htm#families
Been with my wife for 20 years, married for 10. I was an engineer/gamer geek, she was a sysadmin/gamer geek. Over 20 years what we're geeky about has changed some, but the basics have not.
Lets see, in no particular order
1. The advice to not try to solve problems she talks about is good and hard for engineers to grasp. Listen, understand and sympathize first. Offer solutions later and ask if she wants a solution before offering it. Also you're more likely to offer a good solution or recognize that there is no good solution if you listen to the whole thing.
2. Accept that both of you are obsessive about things and give space for that. But if possible look for ways it can overlap. This can be as simple as moving all obsessions into the same physical space (setting computers up side by side for Muds vs computer games) or it can be trying out the other person's obsession and seeing if you enjoy it at all, and if you do, participating sometimes. Occasionally this will backfire and the alternate spouse will become more addicted than the original, but in general it works out better than if you have no understanding of the other person's obsession. Even trying and giving up on it is better than having no idea of the appeal. This is a typical problem with "normal" relationships too..pick a sports fan with a spouse who has no interest in his sport.
3. Related to #1 and #2 - Share your triumphs and tragedies in your obsession, as well as just the everyday life stuff, and enjoy/sympathize with the triumphs/tragedies of your spouses. You may not really care much in the abstract that she got a rare new hat in Puzzle Pirates and she may not care much that the reason you're grumpy is your character died for the Nth time vs an especially hard encounter, but the deal is - this is a shared journey. If you guys make time to listen to each other about the stuff that excites you, the excitement gets shared and life is just better. If you listen about the stuff that makes you unhappy in the hobbies, you'll have the right reflexes for the really big problems that come down the road too. Also this kind of communication means you'll be in touch with how your spouse is changing. You both will change and it is possible to end up with nothing in common at all over time. That's less likely if you share the little stuff as well as the bigger stuff.
4. Fights happen, big problems happen. Work through them. It's really scary the first time, but each time you get through a bad patch builds a foundation of trust for future problems. Like all the stupid self-help/business communication books talk about, there needs to be room for mistakes and failure and focus on getting out of the problem, rather than who is to blame. You can work out prevention after the crisis is over.
5. There will be stuff your spouse WILL NOT do. It's similar to the stuff YOU won't do, but the set won't overlap much and you won't understand why the spouce won't do it. You may eventually learn, but it won't change the behavior. (eg, my wife doesn't do dishes probably because as a kid, her big sister always stuck her with the dishes and didn't do her share. I do the dishes in the family. She also hates opening letters, so I end up dealing with mail and paying most of the bills. She does other chores and tasks I hate equally and for equally stupid reasons). When both of you hate doing something, pretty much you have to work out which of you has a lower tolerance for it being undone and that person ends up doing it. One kind of cool things about this is you get a lot of "spouse points" for doing stuff your spouse hates to do, even if you don't really mind doing it.
6. Sometimes you'll have contradictions as fundimental as the "won't do" stuff in #5. The best you can do is be aware of it and tiptoe around it. For example - I have a high tolerance for clutter but not as high as my wife. Eventualy I want to clean things up and I want to throw away things that aren't being used. The trouble is that if I do t
Have you ever considered... You know... Talking to her?
1. Determine what you each like and do at least some of that each week.
2. Determine what you like doing together and do at least some of that each week.
3. Make sure finances don't get in the way of both of you having a good time.
4. Make sure housework doesn't get in the way of both of you having a good time.
5. If something changes, find an equitable solution together and stick to it.
There. That's it. This has served me and my wife for 9 years and counting.
I did. It was painful and unproductive. "What would you do if you found out you could not have kids?" What would you do if you had not thought about this before deciding to get married? Almost everyone in the class I took was already living together, most were married, almost none were clued in. It was a complete, complete waste of time.
I suppose that if you get through the course it is a sign your relationship is strong and that you are on the same wavelength.
I guess the only positive impact was that it was a significant step on my SO's way out of the catholic church. I used to feel bad (20 years ago, or so) about not going to church with her, especially as she would often end up not going, and there are seriously positive aspects (meeting people when you move to new areas, shared context with said people) to church attendance (that do not balance the negative for me of actually having to sit through it, or at least did not when I was much younger). Now she has no interest in going either.
The priest who married us said the relationship would not last due to my lack of faith. The marriage is still fine after 15 years.
YMMV. I have heard of better and worse churches and priests. Ours were pretty bad.
You got me into this! You were the ideologue! I'm only a poor assassin! - Twenty evocations, Bruce Sterling
True that. I was with a woman who moaned all kinds of nice things during sex: "I love you!" "Your d*** is so BIG!" "Ahh, that's so good, how do you know?!! How do you KNOW!!?? AAAHHHHH!" etc...
It was ALL balogna and I knew it, but I felt 10-feet tall and as a result became much hornier and lasting. Damn, I can still smell it right now just thinking about it. Sex like that could have saved my marriage.
My advice on marrige is quite simple: Don't marry. Or marry with a 2-inch thick marriage contract. The simple fact that either of the SOs can walk away, with (nearly) no legal commitments holding them back contributes greatly to respecting each other and acknowledging each others sacrafices that where done for a relationship... ...Don't get me wrong: You can marry, if it is for outside reasons. Maybe you have to marry for tax reasons or because you live in a society where only married couples are accepted.
How about: Don't marry if you don't plan to have children. If you plan to have children, then you better be married.
In many instances, the institution of marriage, and the many of the laws associated with it, are more about the children brought into the world by the married couple than the couple itself. Marriage deliberately makes it difficult for the parent to divorce so that people don't simply walk out on the family, regardless of the problems. In the past, and perhaps some societies today, it was found acceptable to bring children into the world (and engage in sexual relations with someone) only if you were married as there were no social safety nets for the children if the parents divorced.
There are certainly couples out there who are miserable in their marriages. But society would be better off if more was done to help couples determine if they can raise a family prior to marriage, and help troubled families work through their problems, than facilitate divorce.
Found at the root of many of societies ills is the breakdown of the nuclear family.
Bzzzt, wrong. small lies are what keeps you in your miserable routine. I'm sorry your sex life sucks but if you took the five to ten minute to talk to the woman about why sex wasn't that great you'd probably come up together with ways to improve it. You didn't like the way she moved maybe? Yeah well, keep pretending you liked it and she'll happily repeat the same move over and over again for the next 30 years believing it makes you happy. If there is something you can't talk about in your relationship you're screwed. period.
See the thing is, I do want to talk about such things. Just you know, at an appropriate time ;)
White lies are what stupid people tell because they can't figure out how to tell truth gently.
Do you love that (really ugly fucking sweater) I gave you? Not really, grandmother, but I love you!
What do you think of (outfit that accentuates every single flaw of a person's figure)? You know I love the way you look, but this outfit doesn't really seem to suit your look.
At work they made me so mad I (did something really childish in response to a stupid coworker) - what do you think? It's great that you stand up for yourself - you always have a plan. What is your plan for handling the blowback if any of those idiots get upset?
All of those are honest but they are said in a way that is kind and speaks to the core issue. Allowing someone to look like a fool when they were counting on you for honesty is incredibly cruel.
Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
She'll dump you the minute she finds someone who is more successful and better looking than you. Oh, and you can forget about having sex once the ink on the license is dry. Seriously, you may think you know her but trust me, you don't. The moment you think you have her figured out, she changes the rules. Watch her like a hawk and be damn sure you remember everything you say and everything she says because she will conveniently forget stuff that doesn't support her beef at that moment and remember stuff that to you is insignificant. Oh, and watch your money, especially nowadays. Ask yourself if she's marrying you for the safety factor.
Ah yes, but the question "Does this make me look fat" is in a whole other ballpark than "What do you think of this outfit"
The point of the former is to corner you and force a compliment out of you because the lass is feeling a bit unsure of herself. Whereas the latter is an honest request for an opinion and honesty is expected.
Just let her have what she wants when it doesn't matter so you can have what you want when it does. Of course you should always pretend that the nonsense she thinks is interesting and important actually is and that you are listening as she rambles on and on and on and on about it.
She should do the same in turn.
Aside from that, put the toilet seat down and always put your dishes in the dishwasher.
Oh yeah, and always remember that what she says she wants, particularly when it comes to sex, is rarely what she wants. Generally they want to be treated like a dirty whore piece of meat in practice. They want it hard and nasty. Even though they claim to want it soft, gentle, long in duration, and touchy feely. Fuck em hard and often to the point that they complain their various crevices are swollen and swore, then tap it again.
Again, they won't admit it. In fact, there will probably be a woman or two chiming in saying something to the contrary and no doubt there will be a 90's metro-sexual mumbling something about caring and sharing. Trust me, ignore them all and listen to me and she'll have multiple orgasms within 5-15 minutes of intercourse and that in simple missionary and doggy style. It's all mental for them so as long as you handle things properly the physical part CAN be the way we want it and still be very satisfying to both.
If you are A) reading books about marriage and B) asking for advice from people on Slashdot, you're not ready to be married. You're over-thinking this when what you're really looking for is for someone to talk you out of it. I won't talk you out of it but I will tell you to think about whether or not you really want to get married and if so, why?
I mean, sure, it's technically still a cat, but...come on.
I'm about to get married and my fiancee and I have really enjoyed the books by John Gottman http://www.gottman.com/ From the website: "John Gottman, Ph.D. is world-renowned for his work on marital stability and divorce prediction, including the study of emotions, physiology, and communication. He was recently voted as one of the Top 10 Most Influential Therapists of the past quarter-century by the Psychotherapy Networker magazine. He is the author of 190 published academic articles and author or co-author of 40 books, including his NY Times best seller, The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work. He is the Executive Director of the Relationship Research Institute, which creates programs for new parents and treatments for domestic violence"
As first, a band/music geek then switching to computers in middle age who is married to an accountant and has been for 35 years I have a little advice.
When you fight, and you will, fight fair. Don't ever go for those things that a spouse knows about that can really hurt the feelings of your partner.
Remember even when you are angry that you love this person and you really don't want to hurt their feelings.
Also don't ever bring a lawyer, or even worse two, into your marriage. It is my experience that any mention of lawyers in a marriage totally destroys the trust in the relationship.
AG
Non bene pro toto libertas venditur auro
Why marry someone so petty and manipulative that they're the kind of person who would put someone they ostensibly love into a no-win situation such as that? My reply was based on the assumption that people weren't marrying emotional cripples or people who are developmentally stuck at approximately age 10.
Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
Small lies are what ultimately result in failed marriages. This is because small lies have a way of snowballing. Let's take your sex example. If you don't communicate your dissatisfaction about the sex you get, then over time you begin to lose interest in your unsatisfying partner, This generally leads to wandering eye and worse. Now take the couple that is smart enough to communicate like "I don't like that. Do this instead, Oooh ahhh OOOO!". This is how you communicate and wind up with a partner who out of affection for you WANTS you to be happy and is willing to learn how to do that, and vice versa.
/. for marriage advice, my advice is DO NOT GET MARRIED!
So my advice to this pair of Geeks is PUT DOWN TFM AND COMMUNICATE!
If you are honest and communicative, you can survive marriage. There is no FM for marriage and I'm not talking about "Friendly" here. Ok.
If you have to ask
Holy C!
I heartily agree with "Honestly: be honest, and stick together as a team" as good advice on Navigating a Geek Marriage -- and any marriage. I affirm those comments through these of my own:
Put-downs. I can also say that you need to work out how to detect even the slightest tendency in yourself to "put down" your wife, because that would not have you being a true team player. Just DO NOT allow yourself to talk down that person you love, even in the darkest recesses of your mind's "self-talk" where those thoughts might never make it to your larynx or the keyboard. And, yes, talking your partner down can become insidious within yourself, let alone if expressed in words. Someone I respected and looked up to in many things was a constant "talker-down" of his wife, who constantly 'agreed' so that he would shut up; but, it was not pretty to see.
Love. You have said that you love her. Very good. I urge you, from now on, to never say it lightly, or as a joke. To her, the saying by you of the "three magic words" ( I love you ) are imbued with a mystic, therapeutic, comforting, wonderful, relaxing, joyous meaning.
The words must be felt by you and said with your full conviction on every occasion. Preferably, when ever you feel it (and, aren't email and SMS wonderful innovations for this.) That's team play!
There may be times when you think that just by saying them (e.g. without truly meaning it, just for fun, to stop a fight, because you think she will be happier if you do, etc) will have the 'magic' effect; but this is not true. And, never qualify these words; no adding "... if you do/be/like/have this/that/other", etc.
Sun-set. The sun never sets on a marriage, except in one respect. Never "let the sun set" on an issue between you; spend the time and discuss it (fix it) so that it does not become a multi-day catastrophe. You might not be concerned, sleep on it and probably forget it, but she will worry over it through the night and until it IS fixed. You do not need her concerned! You need her "right", and the two of you as a team.
Together-ness. Others are telling you how to do things together. That's team play. What you share will change as you both grow. That's still team play. And, there's always one really fun way to have together-ness :) and that's really "team play".
Looking at space, radio, science and computing from a 'down-under' amateur enthusiast perspective.
Asian women also avoid key white women characteristics such as having a mid life crisis, divorce, and hobbies that donâ(TM)t involve taking care of the children or cooking for their husband. See for more info http://tinyurl.com/3r8x6o
"Flags are bits of colored cloth that governments use first to shrink-wrap people's brains..."
Let me bang your wife first before I give you any advice.
think that's the way it's supposed to work. Some of them have to literally be retaught.
You know, I don't necessarily disagree with you ... but goddamn do you come across as an arrogant condescending cock when you say things like that. If I were you, I'd re-evaluate some of your own personality traits. I'm going to take a wild guess here that you spend a lot of time "teaching" your wife the "right" way of doing things and feeling.
If I'm mistaken, please accept my apologies for making assumptions. Just realize that this is the impression you make.
An even better answer. "I'm thinking about what my life would've been like had I married the other woman. Damn, am I glad I married you."
A book that was very helpful in my marriage was Way of the Superior Man by David Deida. You may have to filter through some of it, depending on your world view, but there was some great information and incite in that book that has made a real difference in our marriage.
Wow, There goes the myth of single weirdo geeks who can't even spell the word "girlfriend"
Because women fish for compliments. It's their thing and I have yet to find a woman who wouldn't do it. Usually it's best to just pay them the compliment and be done with it.
My wife has a fat arse and I make sure she knows about it. But I like that kind of thing, because she's the only girl who'll kick my friends ass in almost any game after 10 minutes of learning it. She's a natural :)
I think there is value for the clueless. A lot of the people in our class loved it and were amazed by the questions. I could not believe that people were getting married (and, in several cases (though it WAS catholic) re-married) without thinking about basic living together stuff (and 28 out of 30 couples were living together, including us). I know people who had more enjoyable courses but I don't know anyone who said they really got much out of the class.
You got me into this! You were the ideologue! I'm only a poor assassin! - Twenty evocations, Bruce Sterling
Don't forget that RTFM only works when a definitive (or at least high-quality) M exists, and it's hard for that to happen when dealing with humans. If we had the M, we would have a much better idea of how to model human thought processing in AI systems. While I'm also a strong RTFM supporter especially because it helps one be thorough in many cases, there are definitely limitations.
So give the compliment that *she* looks beautiful to you, even if sometimes her clothing might not. And, to be honest, if you're dating people who do that, as I said, you're dating emotional cripples who use children's tactics to get their needs met. Male or female, people who use such tactics in their relationships for such things as compliments will also likely have a similar level of emotional maturity in other areas.
You're also being a bit wide with your comments when you say "women fish or compliments. It's their thing" even though you qualify it with your own experience (which I'm sure encompasses a representative sample of woman-kind, so that your global statements aren't just misogyny, right?)
Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
Actually it's what women themselves have told me about their kind. Who am I to question?
In my experience they don't fish for compliments a lot because I have a rule to always reply with an uncompliment when someone is being silly like that.
Ah, you must have met an Ur-Mother then; they speak for all of womankind.
It's so much easier to treat people as interchangeable objects rather than to bother with that whole "individuality" thing, isn't it?
Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
In short, yes, yes it is. But really, stereotypes exist for a reason and are a good heuristic to start with. It's only when people don't recognise it's just a heuristic and not a full-proof personality profile that problems arise.
In short, every person inherist from the base class Person.
Just watch out for the ones that are public and allow unrestricted access to their methods. Some of them have some really nasty bugs that may cause an unrecoverable system error.
Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
ouch, sorry couldn't resist. I can only imagine you dressed up as Spock and her dressed up as an Elf from LOTR
You should check out the blog and podcast Geek Loves Nerd http://geeklovesnerd.com
It features marriage advice and conversations about this very topic! :)
I guess it depends on what she was reading... (a romantic drama?)
My wife used to read those books all the time, the ones with fabio the magnificant, etc... Made her hot and ready when I was around (who says Geeks don't have fun).
Now she's in to cooking, and boy do I eat well... Makes you think?
A good marriage is like a superposition:
Both know they are stronger one
Communication. Sharing.
You sound like me and my husband. When we first got together, I read constantly. He spent all of his time on the computer. Over the years I found books that interested him and shared them. He taught me fun stuff about computers. These days, he spends lots of time reading. I love building and playing on computers and am ticked that he won't let me buy an Atom mobo to assemble a MythTV box. He has four book cases full of books, I have three PCs (one homebrew Windows box, one Linux box and a Mac Mini that I just upgraded).
It's all about listening and sharing and being willing to grow together. It's worked for us for 22 years.
Don't expect that you will know her once you make the committment and tie the knot. I've talked to people who have lived together for 5 eyars who still say that you marry a stranger. Go Figure.
You cannot change someone else. Learn to accept what is, instead of trying to make what isn't.
You can change yourself. But don't do it to please someone, do it only if you want the change.
Give her her own space.
Talk to her.
Listen to her.
Share the chores -- do them together.
Try to leave work at work.
Spend an hour a day out of the bedroom doing something together. Otherwise you can find that you are living with a total stranger that you used to know. If your life is hectic, it may be only chores. It may only be using the dining room table as a study hall, and both of you helping teh kids with your homework. It can even be one person on the mower with one with the weedwhacker, although it should be something with a few more opportunities for shared comments.
Don't have kids until you are sure this will last for 20 years. It's not fair to them. In my days as a teacher I've seen the damage that parents at war or separated can do. I've also seen the positive results from parents where they live in harmony and teach this relationship skill to their kids.
Third Career: Tree Farmer Second Career: Computer Geek First Career: Teacher, Outdoor Instructor, Photographer.
Marriage IS the pitfall!
Here is what helps for me ... I just visualize (in fair detail) what kind of a family I'd like to have 30 or 40 years from today, when I am really really old.
If you want your wife and kids around then, in a loving home, then it becomes crystal clear what needs to be done today. It sure helps smooth a lot of daily irritations and obstacles and stops them from becoming life and death situations. Literary geek ... linux geek ... these things become mere trifles!!
There is a book (forget the author's name) called "Never Be Lied To Again". I highly recommend this book to all males. Not for being able to discover how to catch someone in a lie, but because many of the techniques used in that process are the only way to understand (and have any hope of defeating) female logic.
In 6 years of marriage, I have found that my wife (wonderful and intelligent woman that she is), is absolutely incapable of showing anything that I would recognize as logic or reason when angry or upset. Like every other woman I've ever known (including 4 sisters, and several dozen friends/girlfriends) they slip into this weird zone of emotional quasi logic. At times like this, no matter how right you are (you could be telling them the sky is blue for instance), you are going to be wrong.
When she is in that state, you have to do or say something that causes her brain to "stutter", and allows the logic and reason to kick in. The book has a section that discusses how to do this (in the context of catching someone in a lie, they give several examples of statements designed to do this, referred to in the book as "silver bullets"), and it works like a charm to bring a woman back to a state of mind that will allow you to have an actual conversation, that has a chance of being resolved, with mutual satisfaction.
My favorite "silver bullet" is: "if you expected me to believe that, you wouldn't have said it."
Makes no sense at all. But that is the point. You have just caused her to hear what she is sounding like to you, and it will make her thought process stop. When it restarts, chances are her thought process will be more logical and orderly.
Try it sometime, you'll thank me.
This really isn't targeted towards geeks, but it may help you (and her) in the planning. Think of it as "The Knot" for Guys. Trust me: it's working looking in to. My wedding is planned for 2012, and this has gotten me way ahead of the game. http://theplunge.com/ Here's a sample article talking about the reception venue: http://theplunge.com/weddingplanning/how-to-pick-a-venue-for-the-wedding-reception
-- kp
My guess is that your biggest concern will be overanalyzing everything.
A common characteristic of geeks is that they tend to be rather close-minded or even insular about their hobbies with those that don't share them. My GF sometimes gets annoyed when I get into a long gaming session, and the same applied to me when she was involved in various things that left me feeling neglected.
Try and mold your interests to include your SO if possible, but don't try too hard to mold your SO to fit your interests. Also, make sure that you aren't ignoring each other. DON'T miss important events by being too involved in your hobbies/work/whatever (these include scheduled events or things like not noticing when your SO is experiencing a personal/professional issue and needs your support).
Up here (Canada), the words I keep getting from others is that after living together for an extended length of time, you're pretty much tied as if you were married anyhow. As common-law you can still claim shared medical benefits, taxes, etc. You can also get burned in a breakup.
I've often wondered about this. I'm currently the primary income-earner as my SO is from out-of-country and is having trouble finding a decent job despite massive qualifications (Degree in Account, Master's in Business). On the other hand she has a lot of banked money etc, mostly out of the country. People keep telling me to "be careful" as we've been living together for over a year, and the potential a nasty breakup. Personally I was less worried about it until a whole whack of people brought it up. It almost seems that a marriage would be safer in that regard as you could at least have a marriage contract. On the other hand, I'm not about to break up based on the forebodings of others, life's too short to live in fear.
There's more than just interests. What about values? Are you a slob? Does she consider cleaniness next to godliness? What's her father like? Is he a super-achiever who works for NASA? Are you? Was her dad Mr. Fixit? Even though she's a nerd, she may expect that you'll know how to change your own oil. Can you?
If all else, follow this piece that a friend of mine who's been married for 20 years told me
"When we disagree, I let my wife decide on the little things and I get to decide on the big things. And one of these days, a big thing is going to come along."
Well, my mate and I have been doing this awhile (25+) and I could post a few things that work:
1. Keep good separation. Especially of money. Social rules aren't going to help you and shared property gets tangled up in unexamined social rules, so minimize shared property until you negotiate in advance.
2. Negotiate everything you can. It'll take a long time at first, but will do three positive things ... improve your common negotiation skills, keep you talking with each other, and build up a repository of well-talked-out shared agreements. Start with housework. We recommend weighted scoring ... score = difficulty * odious factor
3. Make a ground rule that nobody walks out on arguments and nobody goes to bed mad.
4. '70's style argument rules work well, e.g. use "I" language not "You" language, keep to the topic, no personal attacks or "always" language, etc.
5. Assume your families are different, both OK and messed up in their own ways, and neither is a source of ultimate wisdom
Don't get hung up about it - geek is not a dirty word, and all organisms will have their intersections regardless of different interests. FFS, you are both l337, go with instinct. It is a point of honour never to RTFM.
My congratulations to you.