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Will Americans Have Trouble Finding IT Jobs, Overseas?
pmancini asks: "I am a skilled senior engineer. Currently there are lots of choices for me to work just about anywhere in the United States. However, I do have an interest in living and working outside of the U.S. for a while, in particular France (though I am also considering Rome). Is it hard to get a job overseas? How is the market over there for jobs? What about the language barrier? My French is awful, but I do want to learn the language. I can get by in Italian and I am sure I would be fluent within 2 months. Any help would be greatly appreciated."
Reading this thread, I've only heard Spain mentioned once in a peripheral way. I'm a college student majoring in technical communication and computer science, and I've thought about going to Spain to try and find tech work (Webmaster? tech writing? support?) after I get out. I'm not really all that picky about what I'd be doing, since I'd be living in Spain and all. :)
Does anyone know of any special considerations I should have with this plan? (I speak fluent Spanish and am familiar with the culture, for what it's worth).
- BMO
ortega@mindless.com
The feeling is truly mutual. Nobody in the whole Europe wants to go to France. Not even us Scandinavians.
I agree. The amurricans that have problems are the ones with no manners to begin with. Like any country, the French have customs and courtesies in their social context. It's better to recognize, learn and use these quickly - the language will come. For instance, a courteous "Bon jour, comment ca va?" will go a long way. Many Americans seem to think of France as an interesting but quaint museum. But they are as proud of their country as merkins are of theirs. Have some respect, and they will respect you as well. Fwiw, my wife is French and has more problems here with jingoistic americans than I have over there with rude French (haven't met one yet). We are already planning to move back, since it will be as good for me there as it is here, and better for her. She speaks English fluently (also German, Dutch, Flemish and Italian) and has advanced degrees in science, art and business, including one from Oxford and an MBA from CUBS in the City. But americans here still give her a hard time. The hassle from the INS is beyond belief. It makes me ashamed of this country. I have never had such problems as an American in Paris. A lot of Americans here like to make fun of "socialist" France, and it does have its labor problems. But at least it takes care of its people. The health care system works. The public transit system works. Dotcom workdays are not necessary. It's easier to have a life there. On the other hand telecomm is more expensive, and taxes are higher. But in America we don't count our health insurance as a "tax", when it really ought to be. But the cheese, wine and fresh food are better and less expensive...
I would agree with Switzerland, it's a nice place, if a bit of a culture shock initially. The shops shut at 7PM and aren't open on a Sunday. It does have it's advantages though, but you have to come here to find out.
One Canadians comments.
I lived and worked in the UK (London) for about a year. Since I had a grandparent that was born in the UK, I was eligible for an ancestry visa (good for 4 years, no restrictions on who you work for, etc.) If you have a parent born in the UK, you can get an even better arrangement, I believe (ie. a visa that lets you work anywhere in the EU).
Lots of jobs in London. Check out http://www.jobserve.com.
As for tax, for me, since I didn't give up my Canadian residency (note: different concept than citizenship), I paid tax in both countries, but there are arrangements between the nations to take care of these sorts of double taxation issues. So I got credit on my Canadian taxes for what I paid in the UK. Of course, I could have chosen to relinquish my residency in Canada, and only pay tax in the UK.
Disclaimer:
- I'm not a lawyer, talk to your lawyer/accountant, talk to the embassy/consulate of the country you are interested in working in, etc.
Second, don't kid yourself into thinking you'll pick up the language. I speak almost fluent German, but even I had a hard time. My German hardly improved the time I was there. It's one thing to be able to hold conversations with people when you're a tourist, but you know nothing about what it's like to actually live in the country.
I would suggest that if you really had serious problems with the language, then fluent isn't a word to describe your level of language competency. Conversant is a better choice of words. I spent my junior year of high school as an exchange student in Hamburg, and by the time I left, I was truly fluent. I've since slid back into the "barely conversant" category from lack of use, but I don't try to pass myself off as being fluent.
You will pick up the language, provided you have some knowledge of the grammar and a patient friend over there, but only if you work at it.
There are many hotties in Central America. All over, but the cutest ones may be in El Salvador, with Costa Rica probably being second.
In rural Nicaragua, one of them basically begged to marry my travel companion...
Yes, but I lived in Central America for 3 months and my Spanish is still FAR from fluent.
2 months is a good start, but it will take most of a year to get close to fluency. Probably 3-5 years to actually achieve true fluency.
You should consider Singapore if you're going to asia. I went there on vacation for two weeks:
Work permits are easy to get, they like to bring in foregn talent wether it's workers or artists.
The only country in asia where "everybody" speak english, except some old cab-drivers and similar.
Very neat, clean and orderly, decent standard of living.
Food is great and cheap!
Plenty of diverse cultures
Nightlife is great.
And last but not least, flush the public toilets or be heavily fined! And leave the chewing gum home, you're not allowed to import that.
You're serious about those prices? I mean Swedes don't earn that much, but a new tech worker at least get 1800-2000$ / month. Do you even survive at 800$? That's a lot less than you get in welfare here...heck my summer job was twice that.
I think France is a rather extreme choice, mostly because of the language. The french really _is_ picky about that. I on other hand can only speak for Sweden, where you'd have no problem finding a computer related job. Additionally noone under 40 raises an eyebrowse if you speak English instead of swedish. We're a wee bit to anglofied in our language.
Mmm..understood it was net, whereas mine where not, but someone earning something like that in sweden, would pay ~30% tax, so it would still be quite alot more. If you just newly came from the unis, you have lower taxes too. I only pay 18% when I'm working while still studying, and I have friends who've been down to 3%.
My French is awful, but I do want to learn the language.
If your french were okay, you would not need the language...
© Copyright 2000 Kristian Köhntopp
All rights reserved.
I moved to France in April 1995 and I was able to get work. If I was willing to do phone support type stuff, I'd have started within a month or two. But I insisted on waiting until I found a development job, so I didn't get an offer until about 4 months after I showed up. From what I saw when I last looked, you should have any problems, at least not in/around Paris.
Getting a visa will be a HUGE problem. The french scheme is (basically)
- the French
- EU citizens
- ex-colonies
- the rest of the world
us USA-types are in that lowest catagory. I spent three days waiting outside a sous-prefecture trying to get the right to stay in the country. I might still be there today if one of the folks didn't see that I was american (I didn't speak a word of french), so bumped me to the front of the line ahead of the Romanians, Indians, etc.
Another issue is the DDTE will need to give you a funky little blue slip of paper so that the Secu will give you the equivalent of a SSN.
One difference between the US and French systems is that for France, the consulate will only give you the right to enter the country. The real work of getting "working papers" will be done at a sous-prefecture in the department where you live (Paris uses a big police station across from Notre Dame). This is unlike the US where all real paper work for visas are done at consulates before you get on the airplane.
To reduce this, look for a job before you go. Get someone there to help you with the paperwork. I have a friend who was just hired by Nortel France to move there and they handled much of the paperwork BS. Read newsgroups like fr.emplois.offres, and check the weekly mag "01 Informatique" for ads. If you speak some French and are willing to learn the rest (it will take more than a few months, trust me), I bet someone will hire you.
Just don't expect anything close to a US salary. There are lots of perks from living in France, but raw cash is not one of them.
I don't know anything about working in Italy, but if you try, you can get into France. Good luck.
- doug
sending over your resume.
We're a major independant european business oriented ISP, many positions are open today in all the countries, including France and Italy.
--
Yes, and that would be right beside the X marking the center of the known world...
"Hot lesbian witches! It's fucking genius!"
(Especially in France. The French are pleasent people, in many respects, but can be nationalist bigots at times. The Eurotunnel was almost destroyed by French farmers bombing trains as they went by, over some dispute or other, and the French National Front is the third largest political organization. If the conditions of France and Germany had been reversed, after WW I, Europe would have been in a lot worse mess.)
Anyways, enough of that. One document you REALLY need to read is the European Union Social Charter. This will tell you what Europe is trying for (but will never really achieve), and therefore whether you'd make it in Europe. Not everyone likes the European attitude. That's not a blame thing, in any sense, of anyone. Some folk just can't mix, and it makes sense to know whether you can or not before you commit yourself to any one action.
Lastly, if you absolutely NEED to get out of America for a bit, or go crazy, spouses of Europeans AUTOMATICALLY become European citizens, at least in many European countries. This won't mean giving up US Citizenship - there are plenty of dual nationals out there - and it's a scam that is no great secret. It's used a lot by the smarter refugees, to prevent deportation.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
The Commonwealth doesn't seem to count for much. It certainly hasn't helped me in me endeavors going the other way to Canada.
If you don't plan to go for a year, apply for PR now (assuming you have some cash to spend). It will make it far easier for you. This is a good web site to start with information: Citizenship and Immigration Canada - http://www.cic.gc.ca/. The key being to do it now and thus give the process time.
Personally, I don't mind picking up foreign citizenships. So long as I don't have to give up my British passport. It makes life easier, introducing flexibility and future assurances of somewhere else to go if they have a better economy. It'll be nice not to have to worry that my temporary status might end, leaving me little time to pack and leave for another continent.
It's gotta be all those power lines in Missisauga throwing the cartographers' compasses off...
In Soviet Russia, Jesus asks: "What Would You Do?"
Corporations never get get tried for antitrust violations until it's much too late and in many cases the decision is at least partially reversed just a few years later. The telephone companies and the power companies come to mind.
Any time a corporation is faced with the decision of whether or not to use it's size to unfairly influence the market it is always profitable to do so. Hence the antitrust laws don't even serve as a deterent.
Yes, but he says that he can already get by in Italian. Apparently he feels that his Italian skills are already good enough that he would only need a couple of more months to polish them to something resembling fluency...
Shawn Asmussen
I've been considering trying to find something up in Quebec.. I've taken 15 years of French, grade school through college, but never having spent more than 2 weeks immersed in it, my grasp on it is a whole lot more tentative than I would like.
Any advice on the process for Americans finding work/green card in Quebec? If I was going to go expat, I'd definitely want it to be in a thoroughly french environment.
- jon
Ganymede, a GPL'ed metadirectory for UNIX
I like winter just fine. I used to live in Anchorage, Alaska, and every year I drive up to visit my family in Minneapolis. The change in climate was part of my calculations in considering Quebec.. ;-)
I'm not quite ready to pick up and move, but I am thinking about in within the next year. I assume the best thing to do would be to use some of the job search web sites to get something lined up and then ask their HR department for advice on living and working in Canada for whatever duration.
I doubt that I would want to become a Canadian citizen, but it would be nice to have the PR option if I got a job I really liked and was enjoying the place.
- jon
Ganymede, a GPL'ed metadirectory for UNIX
Interessant.
I typically spend my night time coding sessions listening to la premiere chaine de radio canada over the net, and the french I hear on the radio doesn't seem all that bad. It is interesting to hear a lot of franglish, but my english is good enough that it doesn't really confuse me.
On the other hand, I know that the media tend to speak a much more formal, standardized form of the language.
And it surprised me to hear that Montreal is so anglicized.. I was trusting in the legendary french stubbornness about the purity of their language more than that.. ;-)
I'll have to go on vacation sometime up in Montreal and see for myself.. maybe if I walk around carrying my copy of Jacques Parizeau's 'Pour Un Quebec Souverain' I'll be accepted by the hard-core frenchies. ;-)
- jon
Ganymede, a GPL'ed metadirectory for UNIX
Immigration and Employment laws are federal laws, applied the same way wherever you are in Canada.
The province has no jurisdiction on immigration. If you go to an immigration or an employment office in Quebec, or any other province, it will be run by the goverment of Canada and you'll get to see canadian flags everywhere.
Speaking from experience here...
You'd have a much better shot getting a job as a sysadmin with a multinational bank or other financial institution. I don't see a lot of demand for foreign programmers unless you have a unique skill in a high-demand field.
If you're serious about working in Japan, marry a Japanese citizen. It makes so many things easier I can't even begin to tell you.
I don't know about Italy, but we're located in south France (weather is mostly similar to California, but life is several times cheaper) and we're currently hiring 60 more people. We already got some foreigners, more are welcome; different cultures are cool. One of the foreigners has been here for a year and just gave up speaking French; he's spoken English at the office (albeit not always great English :), all our code is documented and specified in English, most girls here understand English, what else do you need :-)
Jobs are there.
--
Emmanuel
No, France is the most beautiful country, there's lot of place, very different, mountains, beach, forest, etc.
Of course Paris sucks a lot, not for tourism, but for work, too much pollution, traffic jam, and people there sucks. I worked 6 months in south suburd, horrible. But each night I went to Paris (by RER, took 35 minutes) to visit and have fun.
Forget big cities like Paris and their 17 millions people with the suburd, forget Lyon, forget Marseille, forget Lille, but you may find others cities very pleasant, like Grenoble, Montpellier, or Nancy (lot of CS here, check http://www.loria.fr)
--
"Science will win because it works." - Stephen Hawking
I've been looking into this recently myself. As far as I understand it, the only way to be "entitled to citizenship" is to either be born in the UK yourself, or have both parents be UK citizens and be born outside the UK because of some reason (military service etc.)
As you say, though, a grandparent who is a UK citizen can get you the "Right of Abode" -- provided you can document it, of course. If you are a Commonwealth citizen who has one parent who is a UK citizen by birth, you can also be entitled to the "Right of Abode."
This right is essentially the equivalent of a Green Card in the US, though I don't think it ever qualifies you for full-on Citizenship, no matter how long you live there, unlike the US.
Breakfast served all day!
Actually Germany is approximately the same size as the state of Wisconsin, so it isn't even near Texas or Arizona.
As for Canada, they are running a huge deficit and having problems supporting their socialism (At least accoriding to a Canadian friend of mine.)
Exactly my point, even though you horribly missed it..
Holland is the only country in the world where I have the right to legally end my life.. That's just one of the many examples of their coolness..
As soon as my degree is finished, I'm taking the first decent job I can get in the Netherlands.
I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is and support what I think is a goverment that actually gets civil rights.. Freedom is worth way more the cash..
The skills in the English language is generally good enough at Swedish IT companies to not make it a real hazard.
Unfortunately I would say it's a little bit too good, because those three people never bothered to learn Swedish and therefore still are kind of outside the Swedish culture and things happening in town etc.
However, you might discover that sallaries are generally much lower outside the US (and living expenses are naturally a bit lower as well). Sweden is not the place to go to if you have a lot of debts or are anxious to build up a fortune, but nice to spend some time in if you allready have a bunch of money... ;)
I've found that sallaries here are about 30-40% of what they are in the US and taxes are higher as well.
On the other hand, you can get a nice 2 room appartment in downtown in most cities for around $4-500 and you hardly need a car at all (cities are generally more compact with good bike-only roads and bus connections).
Yeah, but there aren't exactly many services in the US so it's a bit moot...
Personally, I'd rather work in Milano than Italia.
:)
:) Anyway, back to Europe, the countries I recommend are Ireland -- they have a LOT of High-Tech jobs over there, England/Scottland/Whales, France, Italy, and Germany. You also might enjoy Finland as they are a very High-Tech nation but since they don't speak an Indo-European language (Urgo-Finnish actually) you may have a more difficult time mastering the language. 40% or so of the population is Sweedish so perhaps if you want to learn another Germanic language like English, Dutch, Northern and Southern Norwegian, Danish or of course Sweedish, then Scandinavia is for you (But don't confuse the Flemish with the Dutch, trust me! :) The Iberians have some very interesting jobs too, if you want to bone up on Spanish, which you can use on your return, or Portugues, for those spontaneous trips to Brazil. In fact, have you thought about looking in Argentina or Ecuador or Chile? Just because we live in the 'New World' doesn't mean the continent is all like the United States, and all of those countries have a relatively stable government and a pretty reasonable high-tech sector. Anyway, my best advice is go to Monster.com and post your Resume in French and Italian, mark that that's where you want to work, and if you can get through the recruiters enjoy your stay in Europe and bonne chance! :)
You probably need to be Milanese to get that. >sheepish grin<
Now, seriously, I've worked as a technical in Switzerland and to work there you literally 'have to know somebody' as I did, especially with that nasty ultra-nationalist they elected a few years ago. Schweitz pour i Rheto-romani!
But if you can re-write your Resumé in French and post it on Monster.com I Guarentee you you will be hearing from French recruiters within a week. In fact, most European countries will contact you if you check the box indicating willingness to relocate to their countries and my Finacée and I have been vascillating over whether we'll find a pair of high-tech jobs over there for a year or buy a house in the vastly over-priced Northern Virginia / Washington D.C. area. As for France, I strongly recommend learning the language pretty well first because they're pretty protective of it over there, and you might think about working in Québec, Canada en lieu of it because getting the Province and Government of Canada to approve you I've found rather easy in the past if you can just find a job. Montréal is doing better than it was 5 years ago when I was trying to extend my visa so I think your prospects may be good. What, you think it's too cold? Wimp!
Be Seeing You,
Jeffrey.
Time Lord, Dark Horse: The Techno Mage of Gallifrey
This is not original. We saw it on our NoVaDWVS list a few weeks ago and it was passed on by member Joanne's sister, I believe. Forgot where she got it from.
Be Seeing You,
Jeffrey.
(NoVaDWVS = Northern Virginia Doctor Who Viewing Society, http://www.egroups.com/groups/novadwvs/)
Time Lord, Dark Horse: The Techno Mage of Gallifrey
Mabe you didn't read with your full attention, but you don't actually have to do any work at all.
You don't even have to show up at work. And if they don't want to terminate your contract, then they will have to pay you as well.
Also, the not-working-for-the-competition 12 months after you quit is also a joke, yes, they *can* block you from doing it, but then they have to pay you 100% for those 12 months. *And* you can have a full time work at the third company, all 100% according to the law.
Please understand that the position of the company against the employee is extremely weak in France, you might need to hire a lawyer, but the law is on your site.
--
Why pay for drugs when you can get Linux for free ?
echo '[q]sa[ln0=aln80~Psnlbx]16isb572CCB9AE9DB03273snlbxq' |dc
Remember that the U.S. has many restrictions on hiring foreign workers. All European nations have restrictions on hiring foreign workers. Realize that as a foreigner in Europe you will be subject to laws that native Europeans are not. Do some research to see how easily it would be for the French or Italian government to remove you from their country should domestic IT workers start screaming for protection from the foreign invasion.
Stuart Eichert
Stuart Eichert
I don't know about the EU-regulations, I live outside the EU, in Norway. But I know several americans working here, and the biggest problems they have, is actually the american system/papermill, that can give a lot of work sometimes (election, passports etc.).
Southern and eastern countries are cheap, while northern western countries are expensive. In comparision with Norway, USA is cheap. But your salary will match the prices, so that shouldn't be a problem.
Most things in Europe varies a lot from country to country. So ignore all those comments: "I know how it's in Europe, because I've been in ". Ex: Two countries in Europe, may be more different than USA and Mexico.
"The assembler gave birth to the compiler. Now there are ten thousand languages." - Tao of Programming
Were not idiots.
Looking for IT work in the states is a passive experience. Post the resume on monster.com, wait a day or two, and evaluate what the bottom feeders who will inevitably call have to say.
Looking for IT work in Europe must be an active process. This summer I changed my resume on monster.com to say I would only consider positions in Europe, and in four months I've been offered two jobs in Europe, period. (both in Germany) I've talked to countless recruiters up and down the east coast, (who tend to ignore the part of my resume that says I'm looking for work in Europe only and call anyway) and I've asked them, "how about jobs in Europe?" Sometimes I get stories about vacations, or about how nice Belgium is supposed to be, or whatever, but almost no one who ever calls actually has jobs in Europe.
In four months I've had around twenty hits for US jobs, and only two for European jobs. This is passive mode. If you want better results, I'd suggest getting active and beating the proverbial (and metaphorical in this case) pavement, because I don't think European IT jobs just fall from the sky like ones in the US do.
That's another side of the story.
There's no real IT worker shortage. The media keeps claiming this so that some markets get flooded with IT people looking for jobs, thus bringing down wages.
You've commented most IT people you know speak bad English. Companies still hire these people because they're willing to work for food (relatively speaking).
I commented on jobs with standard wages, which is what the Ask Slashdot guy wants to know about. He's not going to France to work for food, as far as I know.
Flavio
[Note: I'm being realistic here. Don't mark it as flamebait, because my comment, as the life, isn't supposed to be fair.]
How hard is it to study or to work in the US?
Pretty hard for the foreign version of you, pmancini, considering a decent company or decent college won't accept a worker/student who doesn't speak English or doesn't have the standards you require.
I don't see a lot of confidence in your statement that your French "is awful, but you do want to learn it". The trouble is most Americans don't know other languages, while the rest of the world usually speaks *at least* two languages.
As a starter, learn the language where you are. Don't expect infinite indulgence from your potential employer because your proposal is flaky.
Once you know the language, apply for the job. If your technical knowledge is adequate there shouldn't be any major problems.
Consider that your foreigner counterpart would be laughed at if he came to an American company wanting a job and speaking awful English.
Some may say that Europe doesn't have many people with technical skills, but they're not that desperate.
Flavio
I'm British, and lived in Italy from 89 to 95.
I've been there to visit occasionally since then.
I'd say Italian is a relatively easy language:
the spelling and pronunciation correspond
almost perfectly, which is somewhat unusual.
Wherever you go, you'd be better off being
able to communicate in the language before
you go there, but I know quite a few people
in multinationals who get transferred to
countries whose languages they don't speak.
Since I did Italian at uni in my spare time
I applied for an English language assistant
job at a university in Rome and moved there.
I did that for 2 years and then did other things.
Since I'd been a student immediately before
this, I didn't really appreciate how low
my salary was whilst I was in Italy. If you're
willing to lived in shared student flats
you can live quite cheaply. I lived in central
Rome and paid next to nothing.
I don't think I can imagine going back to
Italy to live there for a variety of reasons,
but I'm glad I did it. Being fluent in a second
language is very useful, and being there
is the best way to accomplish this. Admittedly,
I was able to cope ok on day 1, but after
I'd been there a year I was more or less
a fully functioning adult. I'll never be
mistaken for a native speaker, but I don't
mind that.
Judging by what my Italian contacts tell me,
salaries in Italy are much much lower than in
the UK. e.g. Italian friends who get jobs
in the UK seem not to believe the sums they
get offered here. I have no idea about
things like houses - I've never tried to buy
one anywhere. Certainly central Rome is not
somewhere you should dream of _buying_ one
unless you're astonishingly wealthy.
Most of the people I knew there were recent
graduates being paid very little (15 million
lire a year, 5 to 10 years ago) to do
language teaching jobs. My last job there
was as a proofreader for a publishing company.
I got twenty something million for a part-time
job.
When I was there, the bureaucracy was
almost as bad as Italians like to claim it
is. I think some of the worst excesses may
have calmed down, but I wonder. The bureacracy
is one of the reasons I wouldn't want to live
there again. e.g. the strange and bizarre
"one-off" taxes that get announced at
no notice, and then revoked and reimbursed
a few weeks later as they are declared
unconstitutional. Or sometimes not.
-- You've got to get a hat if you want to get ahead.
I know tons of people have replied, but I would like to add my two bits. I think it will be especially helpful since I have gone through your scenario.
First let me state that I am a German, who was raised and educated in Canada and the US. About 7 years ago my wife and I decided after university to tour Europe. We did so as contractors. The places we went to were England, Germany, France and Switzerland. BTW as reference we just moved back.
Ok so what did I learn? First if you are not an EU citzen you WILL HAVE a hard time. France as you mentioned will be the most difficult. We lived for 1.5 years on the French Riveria. And my wife who is Canadian had a very hard time getting her papers. The problem was that they ignored her marriage to me. Once I bluntly pointed this out things went faster. Once you are in France WATCH out. You pay through the teeth in taxes and social costs. For example in France social costs are 40% of your income. After that you pay income tax. This means after all is done and said you will in the IT industry pay about 60% to the government. Unless you like the French lifestyle, which I LOVE, avoid France like the plague.
Next, the UK IT market is great. People are friendly, tax situation will result in about American level tax rates. However, the problem you will have is that as an American you will not be able to contract. This means you pay WILL SUCK!!!! And you will get very little social benefits. We left the UK because of the bad weather.
Germany is a good IT market. The pay is pretty good and tax situation is bearable for a social country. However be forewarned Germans are an exact society. Once you are used to it you will wonder how the rest of the world actually functions. When my wife and I moved back we were appalled at how inefficient things are in Canada. But this efficiency comes at the cost that Germans can seem very cold!!! BTW Germany is right now offering the "green card" program. This means you can get a five year permit, which is identical to an H1B.
Italy, great country, but "corrupt". I have some friends and did some work there. Love the food, love the people, but would never open a company there.
And finally Switzerland. This is IT heaven!!! Great wages, low taxes and the country works like clock work. This is one of my favourite countries. Why did we leave? Simple getting a permit to stay in Switzerland beyond 5 years is very difficult. The way I like to phrase it is that Switzerland endures foreigners for extended stays, but you return to your own country. Unless of course you happen to have a few millions lying around. Then "welcome to switzerland". Again though Switzerland is my favourite countracting country and if I could stay there I would.
What is the overall impression? First as an American be prepared for the difference of opinion. In other words if you can relate to Gore, you will have no problems in Europe. If however you are a Bush person, forget you will have battles and you will go home saying "Europe what a f****d place". Europe is a social continent and having mainly grown up in Canada have no problem with socialism.
Would I go to Europe again? In a dime, but life has taken me back to Canada. Just get corporate support and enjoy life!!!!
"You can't make a race horse of a pig"
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
That certainly depends how you define ``EU'' and ``not that much higher''. Here in Denmark the minimum tax is 50%, and our VAT is 25%. I'm sure this is a good deal more than most other countries, and especially the US.
--
Unselfish actions pay back better
It's not difficult to get taxed more than your income. If you have a bank account or own your house (and you're paid it off already) then you have to pay taxes on your house, on your savings (even though you've payed income tax on that money already) and so on and on. If your income isn't particularly big then you can easily end up paying more in taxes than you earn. Of course the really reach folks play tricks with the system and always end up paying nothing.. they let the rest of us pay for the infrastructure, pention and health system.
TA (a Scandinavian)
You mean the Nordic countries. The Scandinavian countries include only Denmark, Sweden, Norway. Scandinavia plus Finland, Iceland, Faroe icelands are the Nordic countries.
TA
No, he's right. I've worked a bit in Italy too, and I was shocked to learn that young, bright fellows who really tried to do a good job and put in a lot of effort didn't make more money than I did when I started working almost 20 years ago. I'm talking about young people straight out of university. Obviously the more experienced people earn more money, and the bosses make far too much. But starting salaries in Italy are low, at least in Rome. On the other hand, it should definitely be possible to get a job there, even if you're a foreigner, like me. The problem could be to get the job you really want, as far as Italy is concerned it looks like lots of IT-people are now forced to work in boring (IMO) areas like e.g. finances (after the Euro was introduced they need a lot of people to re-program the cash registers and bank systems for two currencies :-)
TA
I agree with you, except with the French vs. Italian language issues. To say that Italian would be more difficult that French for an English-speaking person doesn't make any sense. They are both Latin-derived languages and thus share a lot of the same grammatical issues, however there are differences: Written French and spoken French are two entirely different things, and there are exceptions to the rules everywhere you look. Whereas for Italian it's dead easy to write Italian, if you hear a word for the first time you have a 95% chance (closing in on 100% with experience) of spelling it correctly. It's the same the other way, if you see a written word it's easy to pronounce it right (well, whatever counts for "right" for a non-native speaker :-) All the letters in a word are pronounced etc. (Although of course you have to first learn that the letter combinations 'ci' and 'ge' are actually a single letter most of the time, like e.g. 'ij' in Dutch. Italy doesn't have the letters 'k' and 'j', so they compensate with using some of the other letters differently. But the system is easy. And the Italian counting system is one of the easiest around, easier than French and even Spanish.
However, some of you native English speakers had French in school, and in that case it'll probably be easier to go on with French. But from a standaing start I would say Italian is easier, because of pronunciation and spelling issues. Grammar isn't exactly easy, at least compared with English (which doesn't have much grammar at all and in any case the grammar is mostly redundant! If I say 'he are' it's grammatically wrong, but the meaning is still clear. Not so in Italian!) But French is no better.
TA
That was very well put together. I agree completely with your descriptions of the European languages, although of the Asian languages I know nothing.
TA
The health care system is not a "socialist system", get your facts right. You have no idea what "socialist" means.
As far as France is concerned though it probably has the best health care system anywhere, better than Italy, better than any other country I know. A lot of countries try for the same system (Including Italy and, in particular, the Scandinavian countries), but they are wastly less efficient.
TA
Ottawa is great, I love it there. But I'm not sure if what they speak on the other side of the river should be called 'french', it really doesn't sound anything like french as spoken in France.. (actually I met a French friend of mine at Ottawa airport once, he told me the first two or three trips to Canada he had to speak English with the [french speaking] people he met.. he had a hard time understanding their french). Languages diverge, and Canadian French is just that, Canadian and not French' french.
" On the other hand, I know that the media tend to speak a much more formal, standardized form of the language."
You nailed it. What people speak in the streets (or better, in the lunch room where I tend to hear it) you wouldn't think it's the same language.
TA
Why didn't you read the whole sentence before you reply'ed?
TA
Yes, you can get a well-paid job in Oslo. But it's super-expensive to get a place to live, the housing prices are astronomical. And that is exactly why it is easy to get a well-paid job there.. people can't afford to live there. All things are connected. It's much more difficult to get a job elsewhere in the same country, and the wages are much lower, but then it's easier to get a place to live for a more normal price.
There's always a catch, whatever you do and wherever you go.
TA
As for integrating with society, hell, even in the States it takes two or three generations. :)
-- Some things are to be believed, though not susceptible to rational proof.
Most countries have strict rules about employing foreigners who don't have work visas, e.g. American students. But most medium-to-large companies will be willing to deal with the paperwork necessary to get you a work visa, if they really want to hire you.
As to all the little difficulties like phone service, medical care, and talking to strangers, yes, you can take those as a given, but tens of thousands of expatriate Americans manage to have a great time even so, even in places where the level of public services is a lot lower than in France, Italy, or Germany, and the languages are a lot harder to learn.
(I'm curious: if your German is almost fluent, why'd you have so much trouble having meaningful conversations? My German is lousy, but while I was living in Spain I met lots of Germans with decent English and most of 'em were willing to talk. Some of them were even worth talking to.)
-- Some things are to be believed, though not susceptible to rational proof.
-- Some things are to be believed, though not susceptible to rational proof.
Also, I believe the Netherlands effectively requires English, French, German, and Dutch to graduate from High School
Nope, at least one foreign language.But the first 2 years you get English, French and German.
In the third year you can drop French and/or German.
Most Dutch people speak at least 2 languages.
There is only one country where the average person speaks 3 languages and that's Luxembourg.
This is also the reasons why the Netherlands have so many international call centers.
It is very easy to find people who can speak Spanish, Italian, German, French, Polish, English,
etc..
.. working here!
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
I did it through a big multi-national consulting firm. It was a great experience and looked great on my resume. My wife hated it because she tagged along and there wasn't a whole lot for her. But that's a different discussion. In my experience, English is the defacto language of technology. Almost everyone in Germany spoke English. Half the people in Japan spoke English. The other half know and speak most technical terms in English. I speak Japanese, so I was able to handle either situation fairly well.
Think of London (or UK in general?) as California of western Europe.
Without the nice weather.
San Francisco values: compassion, tolerance, respect, intelligence
I would consider Japanese easy, English medium, French medium hard, Latin hard, and Russian Chinese German most difficult languages, correct me if I'm wrong.
Having taken 3 years of Japanese and 5 of Latin, I'd have to say Japanese is harder. Latin grammar is very regular and unambiguous (Japanese is too, but Latin moreso) and the vocabulary is much easier to learn (since the words are often visually similar to English words with similar meanings). Of course, Latin is essentially a read-only language, so the real comparison would be how easy each is to read. If you compare reading Latin and reading Japanese, you'd have a pretty hard time arguing that Latin's harder!
I'm in my third year of college Japanese (I'm a college Junior), and I'm trying to find an internship for next summer. I've pretty much resigned myself to working in the US (not that that's bad) and maybe going to Japan for 2 weeks or so just for fun (I've never been). My Japanese is decent, but let's just say that my programming is quite a bit better. Reading would definitely be a problem. Something makes me think, though, that most of the technical jargon used in Japan would probably be just Japanese pronounciations of the English technical jargon. Anyone know if that's the case? Is it reasonable to look for an internship in Japan, or would I be doing myself and the company a disservice if I actually landed one?
The EU is more racial and ethinc prejudice than some parts of america, but there is nothing in the original post to indicate that the person is non white. America's approach to foreign policy does offend many people, as does its obsessions with itself.
On the other hand Europe, the "continent" does not have a homogeneous population. Each country consists of MANY different ethnic and social groups - generalizations are thus useless. Some countries do have nationalist parties PAT BUCHANAN that expouses xenophobic tendencies STROM THURMOND but they are generally aimed at non whites DAVID DUKE, e.g. the Algerians, the Pakistanis etc.
And with respect to the tough time getting a job, recently Germany was commenting about the failure of their visa program for IT workers. They claim that they are unable to satisfy their shortfall.
Woe be on to them, all who rise against poor people, shall perish in a the end. Buju Banton
you'll have to tell them you're moving on months in advance instead of not returning from lunch
Naw, just catch a flight back to the US over lunch.
It should not be a problem if you only speak English in the northern/western European countries: In Scandinavia, The Netherlands and Belgium, English is ok for a tech job. I work in Belgium, the internal working language is English (all documents are in English, of course collegues speak their native language to one another). I know Dutch, French, German and English. I've worked in Italy, without speaking Italian it is a nightmare (few speak southern-Europeans speak English). Same applies to France, Germany is intermediate.
core dumped.
The problem will definately not be finding a job. The problem will be obtaining a work permit.
I am an American IT guy (mostly embedded systems though) and I just returned from spending a year overseas. I must have interviewed with more than 30 companies in Barcelona, Spain (where I decided I would like to live). I only got rejected once (I asked for too much money), the other times the company couldn't afford, didn't want to go through the hassle of a work permit. I did however have a couple of companies submit the work permit application (around April/June/July timeframe) and the government has not given them any response yet.
Now, I hear Germany is completely desperate for IT people, and it's a nice place (a little boring compared to Spain) so you could check that out. Figure once you actually land a job about 8-10 months to obtain a work permit after that (in most EU countries, anyway). If some ppl think I'm wrong and have EXPERIENCED something different please tell me because I would desperately like to know the best way of going about obtaining an EU work permit.
Hope this helps
geremy
I'm a freelance consultant, so my salary doesn't count, but my collegues (with and without PhD) earn about 3.600.000 lire a month, and you get 15 months payment fo about 11 months of work...(that's about 25.000 US$ a year)
Food in Italy is excellent, there's no other country in the world, where it could be better. If you prefer hamburgers, well, we have MC Donalds here too. US-citizens are used to eat big unwhealty steaks - that's why 50% of americans are overweighted, while 95% of Italians instead have a top-body!
Well: appartments are expensive, so there's no wonder, we live with our family till the age of 30 or till we marry...
Nightlife, nature, culture, people, fashion, the sea and the mountains are spectacular - it's worth its price.
BTW: a beer or coke costs about 1.5 US$, cellular phone contracts are free (70% of italians have a GSM phone now!) and you pay as little as 10 cents per minute, while for surfing the internet you should better get a flat-contract.
Obviously you weren't in Italy for a long, long time - things change quickly!
ms
Anyone have any experience with getting a Tech job in Taiwan?
...some of my friends are making about $1000-$1200/mo net... a dumpy apartment ... will set you back at *least* 500$/mo... 100$/mo in heating costs, another 50$/mo in [electric]...
Sounds a lot like living in Boston! Where do I sign up?
(Mind you also that I was sharing a run-down 5BR Mission Hill apartment, which cut basic rent to a lucky $400. Cheapest apartment on Comm Ave [1BR] is $1050/mo!)
Keith "they better not start calling it Dot Comm Ave, either" Tyler
Terrorists can attack freedom, but only Congress can destroy it.
Well, that's a quite nice attitude. Do you think that language matters for a foreigner to work at the US? If so, you should think so about Europe.
You may be lucky in the UK or Germany (where I'm from), but espacially at France you have to know french for work. Because the french don't know english very well (I have to work with them a bit). And they have french words for every special word of computer sience. Our partners at france were unable to understand the word "computer". When I pointed to one, they told me, that that is in "ordinateur" (calculator).
So please don't make the mistake to think your english gets you everywhere. You would add to the prejudice that american people are ignorant to other cultures. And I don't think you want to do that.
That's just like Utah.
No store I saw had a "No-Gaijin-Allowed" sign. People were curious but reserved. At no time did I feel slighted or looked-down-upon. (Probably because I was 6'4, comfortably above damn near everyone).
Which towns did you go to? From my experiences, I really want to go back, as soon as I have their customs down.
Sigmentation fault - core dumped
I would not suggest that you come to Rome. The Pope does not allow that we have computers. Perhaps you could obtain a job that explained to other Americans as Italy really is not similar to a loading of the system. Much people forget that we have had a dictator and fought you in world war two but they do not preoccupy themselves because there are many gangsters in your cities like New York and Chicago. I cannot believe that you have preoccupied yourselves translate this of new to English.
I'm currently interested in packing up my bags
and moving to the far east. How hard would it be to find a tech job in the Japan? I've got a degree in CS from a well known University, CCNA, CIPT, and I've been doing VoIP integration with Cisco gear for 2 years. I'm also a UNIX geek with a decent amount of experience in C and Java.
Does anyone know what I could expect in Japan?
The Information Revolution will be fought on the command line.
i lived in france 2 years ago, and the only work i could find was freelance stuff... i'd set up sendmail in holland, apache in germany, etc. etc.
i really didn't want to work but there was a girl involved in my desire to stay, so work was something of a necessity. It may have changed since then, they really didn't seem to have a fully formed net business sector at that time.
Don't worry, SaulGood
No, we don't need you goddamn yankees here. Stay home.
//SaVa
http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/prod/tax_edu/teletax
...If you are a U.S. citizen with a tax home in a foreign country and you meet the bona fide residence test or physical presence test, you may exclude up to $74,000 of foreign earned income for tax year 1999. The exclusion amount will increase by $2,000 a year until it reaches $80,000 in the year 2002...
Skip ------ See the latest from http://www.anArchyFortWorth.com
I don't know where you got that 90% tax rate from but it's quite untrue (thankfully).
The new income tax rates for 2001 are:
0 to 31652 guilders taxable income: 32.55%
31652 to 58381: 36.85%
58381 to 99460: 42%
over 99460: 52%
The new capital tax is 1.2%.
Intrest paid on mortgages is tax deductable.
Fuel taxes are high (as everywhere in Europe).
VAT is 19% on most goods
Regards,
Xenna
Can't answer the Latin bit, but I lived in Italy. I knew next to no Italian before I went, but picked it up really quickly (I worked off my knowledge gained from French, and a Teach Yourself book). After 2 months I could hold a basic conversation, and in 5 months could argue politics. I even picked up some of the local dialect.
The reason I picked it up so quickly was also due to the fact that there was only one other person I knew who spoke English. Necessity......
The only country in asia where "everybody" speak english, except some old cab-drivers and similar. Not quite true - practically everyone in the Philippines speaks English.
the beer SUCKSS??? what the fuck do you want, michelob? I'll take guines and murphy's any day over the pale , vile brew of my homeland.
Juln
Another way to obtain work overseas is to work for a government agency like the NSA which deals with foreign nations. I know they have a few bases in Germany (though I think the French forced us out a fews years back). The US Gov't is starving for tech people and is initiating programs to reward IT professionals who work for them.
If you don't like the idea of working for the government, you could work for a government contractor that deals with overseas matters. You won't be working for the USA gov't directly and you'd probably make more money.
if(!toilet_paper) roll.replace(new roll);
Why not take an extended vacation first in order to make up your mind, before you actually move there. I'll never understand what it is that Americans like about Europe :)
It's almost impossible to have a baseless snobbish opinion of the General Theory of Relativity.
Coincidentally, I'm planning to move to Germany early next year (Berlin) and will be seeking an IT job. Every source of information is telling me that unless I am displacing a German from a job, it will be no problem. My German is pretty good, and once I'm there I have no doubt I will be near-fluent (in High German anyway) in a few months just like when I was there in 1994 (couldn't find work then, though).
It is also useful to note that EU citizens and citizens of the US even have the luxury of going to Germany under a tourist visa and then applying to change your visa status once you're there. Apparently it's not usually very difficult to get them to grant you Aufenthaltserlaubnis (permission to stay) for a three-month period so that you can look for a job. I did this in '94, even before Germany loosened up its foreign worker laws a bit.
Germany is really hard up for good IT professionals, and even if I didn't speak German very well, I imagine I wouldn't have too hard a time (as Wirr said above, most Germans have taken English in school).
My $0.02, wenn es Euch hilft...
A hen is only an egg's way of making another egg. -- Samuel Butler
Thank you for clearing up. I'm german and have visited france very often, it's really nice, special if you drive a motorbike, but you have to speak french, cause the french people like to speak their language. I speak a bit, enough for a journey, but it wouldn't be enough to work their. And the french people I met, they were very friendly, but could only speak french!!
You could look up for a job here in germany, we are in great need for skilled IT people. Last time I changed my job, I only wrote two companies and could choose which one I wanted...:-)
I only think, that payment could be a problem, AFAIK you get a lot more in the US...:-(
You can email me if you have further questions...
Michael
Just lookup http://www.dv-job.de/, you can even select the area you like a job, based on postal information, last time I checked they had about 5000 jobs in IT. Most of them around Munich, Hamburg or Berlin.
You can email me, if you need some more info/help.
Michael
The problem in the UK is that there are very few *good* people. There are lots of shit ones, who think because they studied databases, they can be DBAs, for example. Experience is paid for. The job market is very fluid - we've had the dotcom boom, and things seem to be calming down. That means sensible salaries for the best, and realistic salaries for the rest. The most IT-centric areas are starting to have problems supporting other parts of society (rent/mortgage too high, unless you get paid 2-3x national average)
In the UK, start salaries are about $28-35k. 2 years experience will get you up to $70k as a direct employee, or $200k as a contractor, but you'll be screwed for tax. Average tax burden is about 40% (including indirect taxation), but you'll be paying more than the average because you earn more than the average.
Accomodation varies $400-1300 a month, to rent in a shared house, $1k-3k to rent solo. Its cheapest in the north and west (Scotland and Wales too), London is very expensive
You can play all sorts of telecoms games to keep landline prices down (uncluding unmetered access), Mobiles are endemic - >50% of people carry one. Cost is about $30 pcm, depending (obviously) on usage
Eating out is very expensive compared to the US - $15 would be about normal. Big Mac is about 2 pounds ($2.80) for comparison.
Transport - petrol (gas) is very expensive compared to the US. A bit over $5/gal at the moment. New cars about $15k+, decent 2nd hand from about $8k, but if you're living in a metropolis, you probably don't want one.
Public transport is variable. Not particularly reliable or cheap, but it is there. Things are improving, but slowly. Best to live close to where you work than try to travel (unless you're into pain!). Travelling further afield, Ireland is about $100 to fly, France is roughly the same, but you can go on the train or ferry for about $50, IIRC. You can get to most major cities in Europe for $250
Having said all that, the immigration system is fairly harsh - like the US system for incoming Brits! *Don't* come on a tourist visa and try to get a job - you'll be PNGed and sent home. Many companies won't even interview if you need a visa/work permit - its just too much hassle for them to get one (unless you have truly exceptional skills!), so try to get the paperwork first.
You almost certainly won't be able to work in the rest of the EU with a UK visa. Similarly, a French, or Italian, or German visa won't help you in the UK!
Cheers
James (and its not raining, and there have been no floods, honest!)
James
There are several differences you will find in France:
Regarding the language, usually in high tech companies, people speak english pretty well, but you would want to learn for everyday life anyway.
Also, many people have a very bad view of americans, mostly due to the arrogance of the vast majority of the tourists, who do not even understand that the ATM cannot give them dollars but francs (I've seen that) or that people in France do not speak english as their primary language, but if you play it cool, that should be fine too
Good luck...
OhYes your Emperorshit^Hp :)
We're not worthy of you!!
--
Ermmm :) couldn't help it:
:)
www.arbeit-macht-frei.com
--
I think you forgot
:) It's after all "The American Dream(tm)" I guess they'll send it to conquer the space - imagine - "NASA - Powered by McCrappalds" :)
:)
"Voulez-vous coucher avec moi?"
Ah - as about the McCrappalds - good luck with it!
That French guy did the right thing to McDonalds... Way to go man! Many more others soon!
--
> Bah.... Do you think that Jay Leno doesn't set
... if one gives the right answer (which I don't believe it will happen from the first person) move onto the next one... though I hardly think he'll have to look much time for an idiot - US are full of them :) and they have some proportions - you can't miss one
>that up in some way ? How funny would it be if
>people gave the right answers ?[...]
Naah
--
I too desire to work overseas... what I am doing is working at a company in the US that has offices overseas... interoffice transfer is probably the easiest although I haven't tried it yet. Also post resumes online with an indication that you want to work overseas. Maybe somebody will invite you over. Then you know you're wanted.
:-) True, but the poster was just saying that you will not be paying for services you are not able to use.
Don't be too sure of that. I've heard several studies report similar problems with geography. Then just last night, on "Who wants to be a millionair" (Ok, laugh if you must) a "fastest finger" qustion was arrange the Michiner novels in geographical order, east to west, "Chesapeake (sp?), Texas, Alaska, Hawaii" (Not that order, that's the answer). I wondered just how easy these questions could possibly get, when the results came on. Only 2 of this already select group got the right answer, and this is American geography.
Maybe you went to an unusually good high school.
Cost of living is cheaper? I checked out the flat prices when I was in London on vacation... then I checked out the average salaries for the tech jobs... not a chance.
Of course, a lot of companies seemed to like giving away automobiles as a bonus. But who the hell would want a car in london? It cost my 60 pounds just to park our rental for 3 days while we were there....
I sig, therefore I am.
...and they think *New Mexico* isn't a state. It gets annoying when you're trying to order something over the phone and they tell you "We don't do international orders".
Really? I doubt that, but there are huge differences within Europe of course.
In switzerland hourly rates (for contractors, after deductions of intermediate bureau etc.) are between $50 and $150, with an average of $80 I'd say. Total tax in Switzerland is about 25% (including social security). How does that compare to the US?
OTOH in most European countries tax is higher (say 40-50%) and rates are lower (Holland: I'd guess $70 on average at 50% tax). But for that, housing may cost only half of Switzerland, and general other costs are maybe 30% lower.
Since I've heard that within the US there are huge differences in cost-of-living and hourly rates too, it is very hard to compare such things.
I moved from Holland to Switzerland a year ago. I make about 50% here per hour, at half the tax. Still I don't know in which country I had more to spend in the end, since it is so hard to compare all the pros and cons, cost of living etc.
Based in Vienna, Austria--however language is not a problem as we mostly use English, and so do our customers, and will help the right person to get a visa. Salaries are not great, but you'll have fun, and get plenty of benefits and holidays if you're willing to work with the team.
See out site: http://www.lanifex.com and drop me an e-mail at paul@lanifex.com if you're interested.
--
Paul Gillingwater
Paul Gillingwater
MBA, CISSP, CISM
I've been considering doing the same thing for a few months now and I'm facing a hard decision on this matter. I'm a Canadian citizen working in the US so I cannot help you with VISA related matters. However, I've done a fair amount of thinking about this over the last few months.
:-).
Basically, I've got my arguments categorized in three categories: carrer progression, compensation, and life style.
From a carreer progression point of view, you'll have a hard time beating the US. The wide array of opportunities in the US is mind boggling compared to what is available in France. There is a positive side to this if you decide to go work in France though: France is roughly 2 to 4 years behind the US in most aspects related to IT jobs (mind you they are ahead of the US on certain things too like portable computing). This is a good thing for you because if you are up to date here, you'll be ahead of everyone over there. The difficult part, will be to come back in a few years if you ever plan to.
As far as compensation is concerned, prepare to be dissapointed. US salaries are much more generous than French salaries, without even taking into consideration the strength of the currency. The US dollar is currently about 7x stronger than the French Franc, yet if your US salary is around $50K/year, don't expect to get offers in the 350K FF/year range; the same goes if you make $100K/year, you won't get a 700K FF/year offer. Of course, this would be a crude conversion that doesn't take into account the HUGE number of vacation days (between 5 to 7 weeks per year!) and other benefits that you get (healthcare) when you work in France. Still, overall... if you plan to visit other countries (let's say Switzerland), you are much more wealthy when you walk in there with your American salary than your French one.
On the lifestyle issue, there is no comparaison either. You might want to try a little trip over there for a couple of weeks before you make up your mind but from my perspective, the French people know much more what "life is all about" than Americans (before I get flamed by Americans, let me just say that is is a generalization and *of course* this doesn't apply to everyone in particular). The 35 hours work week, 5 to 7 weeks of vacation, excellent public transportation, and many other obvious things makes living in Paris very attractive from the lifestyle perspective (if you can get used to the small apartment that is
In the end, there is no simple answers. Many other factors come into play if you have a family. Good luck with your decision; I'm sure you'll make the right one and wish you all the best.
It is a common as drunks in America or Europe
peeing in the streets... Actually after living there for about 3 years (tokyo) it is not really
all that acceptable.
What is really cool to see in the mornings in Tokyo are the salaryman who were drinking late and
missed the last train home... A lot decide to just sleep (or pass out) in the streets if they don't have enough for the taxi ride...
-Brian
Like the posts here, it depends on where you chose
to work. If you work for an American Company in Japan, it can go pretty sweet. U.S. Companies are
known to give there employees generous packages
(housing allowances, car allowances, family benefits) when they move to Japan.
Working for a Japanese company, you can usually swing similar packages but it all depends on the company and the rest of the native staff might be a little jealous.
One thing to note about working there. IF you go over looking for a job on a tourist visa, you have to get sponsored by your company to get the working Visa. This means going back to you native country and getting the Visa from your local Japanese consulate or Embassy. It can take awhile.
It just depends how influential the company is in
getting the wheels turning are their request expedited.
-Brian
I just applied for a part-time job here and was told that the job was limited to people under 35. No reason given, no apology. "Here" is Milan, Italy.
So I would guess that Germany is not the bad apple here....
-steve
"There are no shortcuts to any place worth going."
"Be regular and orderly in your life, so that you may be violent and original in your work." -Flaubert
The Czecks and the Hungarians... I spent more than a few hours of my stays in Budapest and Prauge just sitting oustide a cafe enjoying the mobile scenery, and I really did enjoy the company in the cities I did spend more time in. Didn't have enough time to realy get to know anyone, but met pleanty of women I would have liked the chance to get to know (they guys were fun to...).
As an American who worked long and hard for his not-quite-american accent in German, I found that quite a few Europeans totally unwilling to accept that I was anything but a tourist. I got very tired of the inferiority/superiority complex that I ran into there. I reallize that we Americans have our own brand of it, but that is no excuse to categorically say that we are all Ego-Cultureally-Centricly bound.
P.S. In the Oslo Vicking museum I found the description of the Vicking raids on (what is now) Nothern Great Brittian as "Cultural and Economic Exchanges" rather humerous.
<p>As someone with three semmesters of Japanese behind my belt, I can speak to this a little bit. Modern Japaneeese is written either left-to-right (top-to-bottom) or top-to-bottom (left-to-right), depending almost on taste. This is not the biggest issue in learning Japanese, the biggest difficulty for us Gaijin (roughly "Western Devils", or "foreigners" with some heavy overtones), is that Japanese is a "culturally pregnet" language, that is you have to understand the culture to truely understand the langugage.</p>
<p>Of course, having three alphabets (Hirigana - 56 letters, Katakana - 56 letters, and Kangi - tens of thousands of letters) all mixed in with eachother all the time does not help. Keybording is a real art in Aisian languages, and takes some time to get used to (typically they type in the romanized, Romanji, versions of the words and use a small input program to help them indicate what they were aiming for).</p>
<p>I have got to say that I did enjoy the challenge of learning Japanese, and hope one day to go there to truely learn the language, but I liked the chalenge (ok.. I am nuts...). If you are not up to that, I would recomend one of the "easier" langugaes for Westerners, German (my favorite), Spanish, or French. I am not saying they are easy, only easier for Westerners. I am fluent in German, so I am speaking from experience here... and if you want a truely beutiful, challenging western langugae, try Hungarian, my current target language!</p>
Small Comment: Japanese is inflected, not tonal. The bi-tonal "sing-song" quality is a convention, not a necessity. You can sucessfully speak Japanese in a Monotone, it just sounds silly.
Most of the chatter here has been about Western Europe. I will most likely be moving to South America (Brazil, Argentina, Chile, or Mexico) in about 1 year (when my wife completes her MA in Intl Poly Sci). What are my options in SA?
TIA
RedZone
I worked oveseas and at sea for US firms on Department of Defense contracts and foreign military contracts for over ten years. The biggest requirement here is a DoD security clearance at the proper level, even if you are working for a foreign military force. Generally, the worker is under military protection, and must behave per the desires of the base commander, and according to local custom. This means a great deal in countries like Saudi Arabia. In any case, avoid any political statement about any country or person. This is critical to your well being.
Foreign employers are a different matter. They work under their own rules, which usually bear little resemblance to US labor laws. Job requirements are clearly stated, including age, education, sex, marital status, and physical condition. Most employers will insist on a curriculum vitae (a detailed resume and life history), and several references. Do not submit these until asked. Get the IRS publications for expatriate workers and read them. Physical presence in a foreign country is easy to prove, but allows no deviations. Residence in a foreign country is difficult to establish, and will be disallowed for any of many listed, and some not so obvious, reasons.
Life can be very good in foreign countries, but it will be different. Be very adaptable, and enjoy all the good things. You will learn. Hopefully, you will also benefit.
I'm from Denmark and have lived in several european countries. I would like to describe the following:
:-) Most americans I know that settled down here, stayed for more than 10 years or are still staying. As a dane, I'm not able to judge Denmark, but I can give phone numbers to americans living here.
Germany: Works pretty much like USA - lots of lawyers, federal government, high technology, but german language knowledge is a must, if you want to be someone at the workplace.
Netherlands: Very U.S. centric. Probably one of the easiest places for an american to settle down and make good business.
Denmark: High taxes (>60%) - beware!
Sweden, Norway: Many people believe that scandinavians are just scandinavians. But I cannot tell you anything useful about those two countries, except that the Swedes have extremely good food at their workplaces...
In scandinavia, though, it is important to understand the working culture here. We are very non-competitive - we don't compete with each other in the work place, only with other companies. The boss doesn't want to hear what you do, unless you got problems, and official ways of command are mostly non-existent. You can read much of this in american teaching books on organizational behaviour - scandinavia is often mentioned specifically.
I have worked with americans over here, and know many people who have worked with americans, and there is a culture clash, that has to be resolved. It usually works out fine.
If you can get a transfer from your curent company to an EU branch, you can work for a short period of time without having to worry about all the work visa legalities (obviously a short term solution). The logic is that one is travelling overseas on a long business trip using a "tourist" visa.
If you are not single and are open to some vaguely questionable moral/ethical actions, you could always try to marry a member of the EU and get permission to work by association...
I actually went through this myself, and ended up working in Germany (Munich) for a few years. To sum it up - I had a blast, I'm sorry I left, and I'm looking to get back.
;^) ). Again, not being an EU citizen caused problems, but they were a large company that had American offices. In the end I was technically employeed in the States and became a permanent expat to Germany.
Now for the in-depth... I was looking to get out of the States (no, I didn't have a criminal record, I just think this country sucks on many points and I was looking for a little diversity). My language at the time was French, so I figured that a job in France was a good idea. I didn't look too hard, because I was picky and already had a good job. I applied to a couple of places (one was the ESO, the other a smaller tech company), and on both cases lost because I wasn't an EU citizen. Note that many European countries have since relaxed such rules for techies (this was a few years ago). Then an interesting position was offered in Munich. OK, I didn't speak German, but that wasn't a problem (they wanted my skills - you know, shut up and code
The pluses of that situation was that I paid American taxes (and no state income tax), the minus was that I didn't get the usual 6 weeks of vacation. BTW, another post mentioned that you pay higher taxes and get nothing for it. That's only partly true. If you aren't employed as an expat, you will pay local taxes (actually, even if you are expat you do, but it's magically equalized - very high tax math that I don't want to go into here). However, if you are there for a short time and move back to the States, you actually have the right to get back some of the taxes you paid (for certain services). OK, it's a pain in the ass, but it's not all lost if you are determined to mitigate the lost taxes.
OK, so about the language barrier. I am quick with languages (even natural ones). The company offered to pay for language lessons (I did twice a week after work). I worked with people who all knew English, but not natively. I was also determined to learn German properly, and they were helpful in my resolve. Add to that the fact that I was a single guy (keyword: *was*), and was making German friends. That combination led to me picking up the language quite quickly, much faster than the family guys who didn't go out much, or those who worked in groups where they spoke too much English. After only 4 months of twice/weekly evening sessions, I dropped that class since it was too slow and commited myself to mostly German daily. After 2 years I was still learning, but well before that I was confidently fluent in most conversations.
Ummm, so what was the point anyway? Ah, yes - do go for it. Your best bet is to find a larger company, or at least one that has had numerous dealings with hirings non-EU types. Also, if you are going fully local, get to know the lay of the land before accepting any offers. For example, in most European countries, it's common for even engineers to make deals that include a car. Analyze the benefits. For all that you pay higher taxes, you really do get more back (doesn't always offset, but if you go in with the American view that the gov't just takes, you're going to miss out some).
I could go on and on, but your questions weren't that specific. Again, your best bet is to go with a company that in multinational. In fact, an American company in Europe might be a really good idea. Personally, I think not enough Americans get a real view of the world, and more people should be willing to take a few years out somewhere else (anywhere not in the US!).
"When I'm singing a ballad and a pair of underwear lands on my head, I hate that. It really kills the mood."
When I'm singing a ballad and a pair of underwear lands on my head, I hate that. It really kills the mood.
-Tom Jones
A good way to look at the tax burden on a US citizen is to consider that government at all levels eats up around 45% of GDP. At least that's what I read in the WSJ.
"When I'm singing a ballad and a pair of underwear lands on my head, I hate that. It really kills the mood."
When I'm singing a ballad and a pair of underwear lands on my head, I hate that. It really kills the mood.
-Tom Jones
I am a NT/Novell LAN Administrator. I am looking to move to JNB, South Africa. Any ideas of job market there, pay, what needs to be done. Any feedback would be great!
Total tax is 38%? Did you forget about the social security taxes you are paying? More than likely, since you probably never even see it.
My tax here in CT is 40% and I am a home owner with lots of tax deductions but living in a ritzy, underdeveloped (business wise) community.
This post brought to you by your friendly neighborhood MBA.
Actually, this is not the case. I was born in Scotland but my family emigrated to Canada when I was young, so I hold dual EU/Canadian citizenship. Being a citizen of a Commonwealth member nation has no bearing on job applications. I've seen this in effect with jobs in the UK, the Continent, and Australia. My EU citizenship was of great help in that regard, while my Canadian citizenship didn't do anything to assist me. -drin
Actually, the minimum for anyone is 50%. No joke.
When I said "enforcement of monopoly power", I was talking about patent/copyright/trademark law and trade agreements that favor the biggest companies while squeezing out the little guy.
Free Hans!
How does one find out which multinational companies are using the technologies I'm interested in?
For example, if I want to work in Coldfusion or PHP, and only on Linux servers running Apache, and preferably in a Linux desktop environment (down with Windows!) is there a way for me to find out what companies may or may not be the right choice for me to apply to, other than perusing their websites to find out what systems they have running?
Send me an email if you are so inclined. Thanks!
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Powerbook G4/1.5GHz 12", Toshiba Satellite 1135-S1554
I am an American and I lived in France for two years. I never encountered a French citizen hostile to me because of my nationality (except for one communist guy in Toulouse; he was just fundamentally anti-American, but otherwise very cool). I believe the French have this image of stupid American tourists who expect the good people of France to speak American, and as a result have a little distaste for Americanisms... but because I spoke their language, and near the beginning of my stay, made an effort to speak their language, they were quite hospitable. I wouldn't mind going back there to work as a programmer. Paris is beautiful.
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Powerbook G4/1.5GHz 12", Toshiba Satellite 1135-S1554
Second, you're right about missing things - I missed be able to shop for food after 6pm. I missed being able to watch TV shows I liked. On the other hand, I didn't miss the bad beer and stupid 15% tips.
Third, where do you get off calling me ignorant? I know a whole lot more about living/working in a foreign country than 99% of Americans do, so the last thing I am is ignorant.
--
And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
Germans with decent English weren't my problem. Like I said, it's one thing to visit the country and talk to people, it's quite another to actually live there and try to integrate with society.
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And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
I am actualy a french speaking "Quebecois" and we are not anti anglo at all. English is spoken as much as french in Montreal only. If you go out of the city peaple mostly speak french.
:-)
But it's true that we simetime use both use english and french in the same sentence. But not that much.
The reason, by the way, we European like socialism is because it works
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Speak for yourself!
Functional healthcare system != socialism.
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Help savingAmigaOS and a free PowerPC market
That said, there's plenty of culture in the USA. Sure, you might not find a lot of it in Rexburg, Idaho; but if culture is important to you, you won't live there. New York, San Francisco etc. have a vibrant and active art and cultural scene. That's why I live in San Francisco.
Unlimited growth == Cancer.
Look by yourself, who's the kid writing as an AC and who's trying to reply in a more intelligent way ? Americans don't need idiots like you, get a life or rent one if you can. Thanks.
"Naughty, naughty, naughty, you filthy old soomka !"
I used to work for a large multinational corporation and was deployed over in Germany for a summer. I know lots of people who have had much longer deployments. Some of which who have jumped ship and taken up full-time employment and residency overseas.
It is far easier to have someone else deal with all the hassles of doing this: moving all your stuff legally, getting various papers, work permits, taxes, and immunization, if someone else is footing the tab. This stuff is non-trivial, it takes many people, lawyers, and years to get it done right.
A deployment acts as a nice transition period; your company will pay you lots of extra money (per-diem), you can fly home occasionally for free, take time to learn the language, and bail out if you don't like it. It's much easier to look for a job overseas if you already live there, so you'll have more choices. A big company like that will have lots of overseas projects, so you might even be able to pick where you want to go.
Sure, potential companies might pay for your expenses to fly out to interview and all you moving expenses. However, if you're already there, it makes you that much more marketable.
As for language, don't worry. European businesses workers mostly speak English; they need a common language to talk to other European countries. You'd be surprised how far you can get along without being able to speak the native language in a foreign country. Being able to read is far more important, and that's is relatively easy to learn on demand. For example, I can't speak much German (enough to order food, really) but I can read enough to run my own life when living there.
I can explanate how to administrate your network. You must configurate and segmentate it, so it can computate.
...and I'm but a wee VB peon!
I met a friend of a friend who was a project manager for Visio, now owned by Andover, uh, I mean, Microsoft. I asked her if I could get a job in Dublin, having programmed VB/SQL for about 3 years. She answered by saying, "Can you please start tomorrow?"
She was quite adamant that the offer was serious and that salaries compared favorably to the states, especially when considering cost-of-living.
YMMV. TIJODP. GAYOR.
(Your mileage may mary. This is just one data point. Generalize at your own risk.)
Yeah, same to you, buddy!
Yeah!!! The world needs more "horny removers"!!!
Amsterdam wouldn't be so bad, I think. We have the American Book Center there, and indeed even the homeless speak English.
Age-discrimination is forbidden by law, but it does occur, just like in Silicon Valley.
Btw, in Winter, it doesn't get very cold, just wet, so don't forget your raincoat and umbrella.
Also, housing is expensive in all densely populated areas, and not cheap in the less populated areas surrounding them. I'm talking about $400k for a townhouse here! (though that might have been an exception, I hope...)
I suffer from attention surplus disorder.
By the way, the message was in Italian.
I'm currently learning Latin, and found that it is a pretty hard to learn language. (a word can have several dozens of forms)
Does anyone fine knowing Latin helps learning European languages in general (excluding German)?
I would consider Japanese easy, English medium, French medium hard, Latin hard, and Russian Chinese German most difficult languages, correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm learning it and found it somewhat interesting. Does it help learn Italian Spanish or Franch?
Personally, I think the more languages you *do* learn, regardless of what they are, the easier it becomes to pick up a new one, just because of the understanding you gain in learning a new grammar. For example, learning Russian reinforced my understanding of English, learning German reinforced my understanding of Russian and English, learning Hawaiian...well, okay, learning Hawaiian hasn't helped much :) No, I'm kidding about that.
In what wise do you find those languages difficult or easy? Maybe it depends on what your native language is, to a certain extent. For example, I found German to be a piece of cake after taking far too many years of Russian in school than I care to admit to (okay, it was six), and I can't imagine that any inflected language would be too difficult after learning Latin or Russian. Tonal languages, on the other hand--Japanese, Chinese, Hawaiian--are a different beast altogether. I'd put them all at the "hard" end of the spectrum, especially with cultural differences thrown into the mix. But if your native language is tonal, then Japanese might really be easy.
I guess what I'm saying is that for me, I'd put Russian and Latin as hard, any tonal language as most difficult, and any Romance or Germanic language as easy, provided you know one of the hard ones.
IMNSHFO, of course.
Thanks for the link! I love those froggies with their oh so convoluted ways! Though I would like to think that if one (meaning the person you responded to) were to wave around a bombastic po-mo philosopher's name you would know what you were talking about. He missed the point (whatever his was). I think one cool thing about living in France would be to pick up a French copy of Derrida's "Glas" for cheap. Not to mention using the time to learn another language so that you could start reading your fave euro philosophers in the language that they wrote in.
Hey, you think your house is cool?
I'm in the same boat you are in that my French isn't so hot, but I'm working on it. The company is also English-speaking, which is REALLY nice.
The hurdles to getting a job (especially in France) are very signifigant. You have to really want to go to France in order to wade through all the BS paperwork. France is stuck between wanting to keep France French, and loosening up their visa process to bring more foriegners in for IT jobs.
If you're brave enough to wade through a French jobsite, I'd suggest Monster France, though you kinda have to know your French.
I also would not suggest looking at it as a finicial career move. I'm taking a large pay cut to work for this company, but I'm still making a lot of money as far as French salaries are concerned. I see this more as an adventure. Something to do while I'm still young. I don't want my memories of my youth filled with nothing but Team Fortress Half-life.
Trains stop at a train station. Buses stop at a bus station.
Buses stop at a bus station
Trains stop at a train station
On my desk there's a workstation....
I'd say this is partly true. ISPs are looking for high-level people at all times, and we have a lot of american guys and girls working as techies and coders here at Skynet (Belgium).
Maybe other countries are not that friendly, but I can tell you that Belgium, being the country it is (three national languages, 90% of the city population speaks english), doesn't complicate foreigner's lives.
I think it's worth giving it a try.
Language is what makes us different from primitive animals, and bureaucrats.
Knowing Latin helps learn the Romantic languages (i.e the non-Germanic & non-Slavic) languages of Europe. But even if you know one of those languages (Spanish, Italian, Portugese, French) picking up the other ones (at least to read them) is generally pretty easy. I coudln't construct an Italian sentence to save my life, but I could read the Italian above with very few problems, since I'm familiar with Spanish.
So, as you're talking english, you know, we're mostly civilised here ;). I bet we all know your language, at least a bit. So for france, no problems. For italia, english is a bit less fluent (as myself too I don't speak italian, I had to use english at the beginning when going wildly to Italy. With some old people I had little problems being understood, for young ppl, it's mostly good.. enough)
But butbutbut...
The opposition is : do you like nervous ppl under a gray sky, in a wonderful city, or cool ppl under a blue sky in a not-less wonderful city ?
Paris is colder than Rome... But, eh, you know, France is not only Paris, as Italy is not only Rome !
people from Marseille are really cool guys (I'm from there ;) ),
but if you want a job, well, of course Paris or Rome. You can also find a job in Aix-en-provence. It's one of the most beauthiful cities in france (personnaly I find people here smell too much fashion and pride, but, eh, I'm a Rognes town (2Kppl) guy).
And if you're really looking for a french work, try www.emploi.com. Good stuff.
Vincent (vince_b@hotmail.com)
glop
>would you want to work with somebody from France that does not know English? ;)
And, btw, it doesn't seem to me than american speak good french, when they come to get some advice. That's no problem, but you come to a foreign country, where more than 2 third of the people make the effort to understand you and talk to you in your mother language, you don't know theirs, and you says "Oh my god, it's horrible being with these savages from france, who do not know english".
;).
Actually I think than most of the french ppl speak english, not always fluent but at least enough for most of daylife uses. And if you really like to speak fluent english and be understood, ok, there will only be one fifth of the population to talk to about ginsberg
Don't say it too loud, french around you perfectly understand what you just said
One thing : ppl from Paris are not always welcoming, and sometimes f*cking morons, but Paris is not France, and just go elsewhere, you'll find better people. And who will welcome you.
Vincent
and next time you express yourself, don't post anonymously, guy.
glop
It's funny, for once I find some moderate propos, I'm ok with you. But I don't really care what SOME stupid, as we all have in every population, could say. And yes, I'm french :).
Vincent again
glop
...listed by www.monster.fr
"In the UK income Tax is only ~22%-34%, low compared to the US's 45%)." As a part time job to get some extra spending money, my mom used to do taxes and she says that if you do your taxes right, in the US you can easily get your federal income tax down to 15%. I want to know where you got those #'s from...
I am sick and tired of being told Japanese is hard! I am a WMCPM (White Middle class protestant male) and have had great sucess learning Japanese. People have the misconception that Japanese is hard because it is different, I takes a little work and some abstract thinking and suddenly you are picking up words left and right.
AUGAUUUGCGCACAUAUCUCAGCGAAUGAAAGGGAUUAA
I found this site, and registered my information. Also, this site had a lot of helpful information. But, you should speak German to use the site. Or, just type in what you want. But, this site also was helpful. It had information about the govt. side of going to a foreign country to work. Find an American company with foreign offices. Good luck.
I've thought about doing this. What I wasn't sure of is whether the US would allow me to obtain an Irish passport without losing American citizenship (my grandfather is from Ireland and--hearsay, correct me if I'm wrong--that can get me Irish citizenship). Anyone know the answer?
All this if I remember correctly.
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Listen. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
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Listen. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
And socialist none of the Scandinavian countries are.
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Listen. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
The shortage of IT workers is same, the locals often move in other countries towards west. But the appreciation for someone from the west with a bit of experience and know-how could make it worth for you. You will most likely make it with English only since most of local folks now takes english like a second language.
For any country, start with US company having offices in this country. IBM, Microsoft, PriceWaterHouseCoopers, Andersen Consulting, and similar big companies are everywhere and usually have all workers english-speaking.
Expect to earn less money, than in US, but the lower cost of living makes it kinda easy for you in case you have some savings. Get $50k and buy yourself nice house. But really ponder to leave US in case you have some debt there...
If you will have good experience, you might even get net savings after taxes comparable or higher to what you get in high-living-costs areas like Silicon Valley.
If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
No, the UK income tax can go as much as 40%. But you won't pay more :)
To be compared with France, where it starts at 0% but on the other hand can go up to 56%...
So the ideal would be to be employed in the UK, paid in the UK, but to work in France for its more efficient infrastructure, its health system and its food !
Second, don't kid yourself into thinking you'll pick up the language.
I couldn't agree more. It's just not going to happen. I studied last year at a german university as the third year of my degree. I'd been learning german for about five years prior to that at school and university. Whilst I was there, I took lots and lots of german language courses and spent lots of time talking german. I spent very very little time speaking english.
After all that time I would in no way say that I am fluent. I could get by nicely enough and express all I wanted to say in long conversations, but it was no where fluent. For fluency, you're talking two to three years in close contact with the native speakers, whilst taking lessons - some of my friends who had been there longer confirmed this. If you don't take lessons and just try and pick it up, which is possible, it'll take a lot longer to get anywhere and you'll get to a certain point and get stuck on interesting grammatic topics that aren't obvious at all. Similar to not being able to say "I would have liked to do that" and such things.
Start learning now, the more grasp of the language you have before you go the better you'll do.
oojah
Do you have any better hostages?
Typical American, can't even spell right :)
The real Captain Avatar is a fictional character, so I suppose he doesn't mind if I impersonate him.
Figuring people in the know would be reading this thread..... Does anyone know of any good resources available for students of U.S. universities to come over to Europe to work for a semester/quarter or two? My school advising office has trouble enough finding us jobs in our own city let alone across the atlantic.... Sites that list want ads rarely list companies looking for interships, but I think this would be a great opportunity, plus if England (country I am really looking at) is as desperate for IT/CIS people as this thread seems to say then they might actually want me.... Basically I am just looking for some info on the best course of action to take.... Thanks...
A nuclear reactor is not a nuclear bomb. For a bomb you need highly enriched fuel, which is hard to make, unlike for power plants where you need only about 4% enriched. And a reactor does not help you build bombs. So it's not a big deal.
As I said, if we continue using nuclear fuel irresponsibly (i.e. once-through), there will not be enough cheap U-235 to last us 50 years. If we use reprocessing it will last for thousands of years. Which one do you prefer, considering nuclear energy is probably the cleanest and cheapest major electricity source. Also, nuclear reactions more or less conserve mass and you don't add stuff when recycling, so the amount of waste from reprocessing will be the same, but the more you recycle, the more waste ends up with short half-life fission products, since U-238 is extracted.
By the way, my nuclear engineering prof mentioned in class that Three Mile Island was basically a partial core meltdown (IIRC 20% core melted and penetrated the containment, not much leakage). The amount of radiation released was not that big. People can take significant amounts of radiation with no ill effects, but increased probability of cancer in the long run.
I was only allowed to work 20 hours.
Because you've been a student. Students get shitloads of bonuses in Germany, this is the only cutback.
Apparently, there were other problems as well, since I never actually got around to working.
There must be some other reason. It couldn't possibly be your fault.
I speak almost fluent German, but even I had a hard time.
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
Inigo Montoya
Do you know how to hook up phone service? Did you know you need to pay a license to watch TV? What about car insurance? Or going to the doctor? If you don't bring your significant other with you, will you be able to have a meaningful conversation with someone you meet there?
You mean... you mean... it will actually be different from homesweethome when I go abroad? Different as in... varying? Dissimilar? Divergent? Unalike? Unsimilar?
Gosh! Who would've expected that!
Censorship on Slashdot
There will be problems, but IT techs are much sought after and your company will almost certainly help you.
The language won't be a problem, as english is used in most IT companies anway. About one out of two projects I worked in uses english for documentation. (If you get to know people beside co-workers depends on you, of course.)
I used to live in walled-in Berlin, now I live one mile from The Netherlands and work one mile from Belgium. It's a great change, even in the same country.
Censorship on Slashdot
This is off topic as well, but by St. Petersburg, this is abreviation. And in Russia we still call it Leningrad, or "Peter".
As an American you shoul get yourself an spell checker, man. As to the rest, I agree. Generall in Europe whenever you go with a different accent you have a hard time being accepted as something else than a tourist. Furthermore, as a tourist you feel pretty much welcome, whn it shows that you work there, it is totally different picture. If you are to stay there (permanent-like) it's even worse...
Three words for you: Pot, kettle, black.
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"Give him head?"
I am rather interested in working in the U.K. for a bit. One thing I really relish is vacation time. Is it true that many companies outside the U.S. offer more vacation time and generally less hours worked? What is the standard amount of vacation time offered in the U.K.?
2 weeks per year is just not enough!
Carl
Vote Libertarian
Just look at the exchange rates between USD and EUR (Euro, the common currency for almost all western Europe, except England, Sweden, Norway..)
- 1.12.1998 1USD=0.85EUR
- 1.12.1999 1USD=0.97EUR
- 1.12.2000 1USD=1.12EUR
Today you get 25% discount for euros compared to situation two years ago.On the other hand; if you're working you get less money!
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Binaries may die but source code lives forever
Sorry to break it to you, but I'm not Canadian. I'm American. In particular I come from Mexico althought I live in another part of America, the US.
Thanks for the comment. My only intent though was to make it clear that it is not politically correct to use the word America to refer to the U.S., since America also encompasses other countries like Canada, Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, etc. When in doubt consult a map.
I think your idea of the American economy dipping and causing Canada's economy to dip is only showing your lack of logic and geographical culture since Canada is part of America, and the situation you propose of America's economy dipping implies by semantics and not by reaction that Canada's economy also dips.
I've got another story: They haven't figured out that America is the name of a Continent, and there are more people (like Canadians and Latin Americans) that are Americans besides them. Jeez, how bad can their education in geography be!
Most countries have bilateral agreements so that you only pay income taxes in one of them. The agreements also says in what instances you should pay taxes in what country. Generally, if you work and live in a country, that is where you pay income tax. -17028
I have an Italian friend who came over to the US because according to him IT workers are looked upon with the same attitude as a secretary and are paid accordingly. As for going to Rome I would do it in a second if I coulod pay for it. I went there to study art history and italian when i was a college student and it was by far the best time i had in college. People in Italy work to live instead of the American live to work routine.
They were there looking for help, finding knowledge, and even doing recruiting.
They explained to me that the shortage of trained high tech workers is very terrible. They buy the best hardware, cause the money's there, but they cannot find the people to pay.
You'll do fine.
"[T]he single essential element on which all discoveries will be dependent is human freedom." -- Barry Goldwater
Taxes in the EU are higher but not that much higher. Assuming you're moving out from CA you're taxes are already pretty high from an American standpoint and the cost of living is astronomical. I used to live in Sweden and I payed less than 1/3 for an apartment 3 times bigger. So what if I make twice as much money here? Take that into account. I'm not sure if you will be covered by any medical insurance if you move over as a temporary worker. If you're not make sure your employer pays. All in all: Yes you might end up paying for something you don't use but your quality of life might still be higher. If you want to have a good time though, move to Tokyo. Getting laid was never so easy... (Damn, that's what I'm waiting for. One of those relocation calculators that take into consideration how many single women there are)
Spanish or Turkish girls. Spanish women are just awesome. Turkish girls can be unbelievable, believe it or not. When I was in Germany, there were gaggles of Turk immigrant girls, and they looked tasty as all hell. Greeks too.
I must put in the word for Russian and Latvian girls though. I've had the good fortune to meet a number of Latvian and Russian women. The most brutally and refreshingly honest women you will ever meet.
Derek
Well, one route you can go is if you are employed by a US company with overseas offices or facilities. Usually you can transfer within the company if an opening is available. And if you get a promotion with the position applied to, the company may very well pay for relocation as well. I work for UUNET in Houston, and this article has made me scratch my chin about the possibility of transferring to one of many overseas data centers, like London or Tokyo. UUNET requires you be with the company for 1 year, then you can transfer.
why not get hired by a US company thats staffing people overseas? I've heard of plenty of people getting paid by US companies and working in France and Belgium and the like.
http://youare.whyihate.com
I don't doubt that it would only take 2 months to become fluent. I've found that learning a new spoken language is very similar to learning a new programming language. This point of view made it significantly easier when I was learning German. Being submersed in the culture and language makes a great deal of difference too. I mangaged to pick up enough Arabic when I was in Jordan for two weeks this summer to get by. Although that was a unique situation in that my traveling companion spoke fluent Arabic and English. Being able to hear something in Arabic first, and then a summary in English made it easy to pick up a significant number of new words per day.
Your French friend should try visiting Manitoba. Quebecois (Quebec's french) has apparently diverged quite a bit from the French spoken in France, while there was less divergence in Manitoba's French communities (according to my French teachers anyway). Although considering that the language spoken in both areas have likely evolved, this may not be the case.
-- If at first you do succeed, try to hide your astonishment. -- Harry F. Banks
2 popular sites aimed at bringing foreign talent to Japan are http://www.workinjapan.com and http://www.asia-net.com. Both sites are in English.
If you are able to read Japanese ( ie. have ability and a have a system that will display Japanese characters correctly ) asia-net has a Japanese site, otherwise try http://www.daijob.com
I am not sure about the salaries, but they are quite high wrt the cost of living. Just to give an idea, a 0-experience dude with a computer science or computer engineering diploma can easily earn twice or thrice the mean salary - for a start.
You should really check how your earnings would be taxed, though...
A few things I learned:
not really true, you can leave the next day if you want - its just considered a sucky thing to do not to give a notice period (of at least a month) and stick to it. usually the company will let you go after a few days anyway
It may sound easy but grammar is very complex. Don't confuse "easy to listen" with "easy to speak". Various complexities make it nearly impossible for most popoulation to speak 100% clean and proper Italian. Actually most people speak some sort of dialect and which isn't so easy to get rid of. I'm not an expert in languages but I can tell that those that learn Italian as a second language tend to give up on following the proper grammar. While being understood, the accent won't be the major problem.
I think that with Italian it's easy to get going, but as one tries to refine the language the objective becomes much more difficult.
The reason why schools around the world teach English, French, German and Spanish is that, sure they are languages that are practical to use, but they are also relatively affordable to learn. I've had this kind of debate with some Spanish speaking friends of mine and so far my Spanish seems to come out easier than their Italian.
bau
English is taught but not practiced and spoken English is a different issue. True, as an Italian you don't see many opportunities but foreigners (especially English speaking ones) can find more opportunities.
In regard to obtaining work permit.. you live in Canada not in USA. I can assure you that it's so much harder to work in USA than in Italy. In Italy everone can enter and start working legally somehow.. it's a breeze compared to USA.
Italian language is not easy at all, I know an American guy that speaks excellent Italian but he's a rare case. I definitely expect learning Italian to be harder than learning French for someone that already speaks English.
On the issue on were to go.. I'd be careful with France. Unlike Italy, in France you won't feel special in a positive sense or even welcome for that matter. If you go to Japan instead you'll feel special and welcome but you'll never be one of them, Japanese society is a very sensitive one and little details will always reveal your true culture. In Italy, Americans tend to be more welcome going south but decent IT business pretty much stops in Rome.
My suggestion is to try Italy.. with the right employer and the ability to speak English fluently one can still stand out of the sad economy.
English speaking people are more valued in Italy and Japan than France or Germany.
Maybe good for jobs.. but man it's a sad city !
Visit both Rome and Milan (on a sunny day if you can find one) and then decide..
Anyone know what the market is like in Toronto? Who is hiring over there and what is hot? -hoz
Well, on IT-sector, I'd also add that all Scandinavian countries (Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Iceland) should be fine too. No need to know a single word of local language to be able to work, especially if you live in one of the larger cities.
I like paying taxes. With them I buy civilization -- Oliver Wendell Holmes
So, EU favours EU citizens about the same way USA favours its citizens as far as I know?
I like paying taxes. With them I buy civilization -- Oliver Wendell Holmes
Just a quick note; yes, London (esp. City) is sickeningly expensive, but that doesn't mean other cities/countries in Europe are very expensive. Think of London (or UK in general?) as California of western Europe.
I like paying taxes. With them I buy civilization -- Oliver Wendell Holmes
Have you considered Ireland? They speak english (mostly), have a great economy, and are booming in IT areas. Additionally - become a citizen, pay no income tax (at least, that's what I've been told)! I did a quick google search and found this site which returned more than a few jobs in Dublin that sounded reasonable.
Tarlyn
even though dutch is our natural language, most of
us don't have a problem with speaking english (but forgive our weird accent)...
I happen to work for an international company in Amsterdam but when we were still "national" we already had a lot of english speaking colleagues...
Ricardo.
The Netherlands is a good place to work. I've been working in IT in Holland a few years. I started for a new company in amsterdam 1 month ago. One of the advantages is thatalmost every dutch man speaks english quite well. I've worked with dutch and french colleages and noticed that their english is quite bad. Besides dutch people are known for their tolerance. The second best choice in europe IMO would be the UK.
What about looking at getting a job in a large US company with overseas offices/facilities. I'm in Michigan and most of the larger autocompanies and the suppliers have large organizations in Europe, and the Pacific. The companies I worked at seemed willing to help relocate people on occasion. I also have known several IT/Programmers who spent months overseas for various projects.
You would have the advantage of keeping US salary, the language barrier would be less of an issue, and the company would take care of all the nasty legal red-tape. You would also not have to worry about getting a job when you get back.
I imagine you would miss out on foriegn business culture to a certain degree. . .
This is just my assumptions I have only been to Europe once and it was a personal vacation. I have never seriously looked into transfering or anything like that so please take my comments with a grain of salt or two.
-MS2k
It all depends on how you compare them. European roads are usually more on the rustic side; narrow, winding and more challenging to navigate. There's a lot of cobblestone too. Not really a problem for them because their drivers have such better training. However, the quality of their paving is so much better. Even in relatively wealthy US neighborhoods, I've seen horrible potholed, cratered roads, and forget about the less wealthy parts of town.
Now explain why US citizens flock to the borders (for those close enough to Canada or Mexico) to buy prescription drugs. US taxpayers subsidize drug R&D by funding lots of basic research, and yet we pay the highest prescription drug prices in the world.
Americans know there's a world outside of North America? Heck - they know there's a country outside of the States?
I've got a story!
When I was at the programming competition in Celeveland a guy came up to me and asked where something was - I said that I didn't know and I wasn't even from his country. He said oh, what country are you from? I said that I was from a country just north of Cleveland. He said in all seriousness : "There's a country up there?" I gave up on him right then and there.
Like sex? Read and write about it! Indecent Blogging
They do, but you should be careful about ones with bitchy character. As a Russian, I can tell you that the difference can be great between different areas of the country and different girls.
If you want to marry one, try to find one from a provincial center, but neither one from a village nor from Moscow.
Tigers respect lions, elephants and hippos. Maggots respect no one. (C) S. Dovlatov
I guess Russian might be hard for English speaker, but not that hard for others. Hardest part will probably be the gender-based nouns, adjectives and some forms of the verbs. Other things are much simpler than breaking your tongue trying to speak tonal languages ;-)
Tigers respect lions, elephants and hippos. Maggots respect no one. (C) S. Dovlatov
Getting an American multi-national to send you overseas is the best way to go, especially if you can be considered "on-loan" to a foreign office. This has potential tax benefits, and as a "guest" in a foreign office your lack of language skills is more likely to be tolerated AND you'll find it easier to get help with mundane things like getting phone service. Not to mention that you'll probably find it easy to move to the "home office" (or another foreign office) if you find that the locale doesn't suit you.
The level of beauracracy that an American has to go through to work in an EU country is mind-boggling. Make sure that either the company you're working for is experienced in obtaining these permits or is willing to pay a professional to handle the matter. The fines for messing this up can be severe, as my employer is discovering, and may jeopardize your ability to continue working in that country. Liability applies to your employer AND YOU. These permits must generally be applied for before you enter the EU.
Be prepared for a great deal of culture shock. Rampant consumerism hasn't caught on over here. In Germany, stores close at 6-8pm on weekdays, 2-4pm on Saturdays, and don't open at all on Sundays and holidays. Italy is about the same. Haven't been to France. The UK (or at least central London) is much better with weekend hours, but has reduced weekday hours. London has the advantage of being thoroughly globalized, which is nice if you ever find yourself fancying a trip to Starbucks (I think that I visited 7 on my last trip) or something similarly American.
Anything that's electronic and imported costs a hell of a lot more than in America (my German PSX2 was US$375, but then again, I was able to buy it at a store the day after release ;-) Fuel costs are obscene thanks to severe taxation (about US$3.50/gallon in my part of Germany). Where I live a car is semi-necessary, but in metropolitan areas driving can be counter-productive.
Good luck wherever you decide to go. I've been in Germany for a year, and as trying as it's been at times, I wouldn't trade the experience for anything.
-Bryce
Good comeback to what was obviously just a flamebait fool
--
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
Before you even think about moving here check out http://www.expatica.com for information regarding life in the Netherlands (and soon other european countries).
You will also want to apply for a special tax break that is offered to professionals in certain fields, including networking and IT professionals. This used to be termed the "35% ruling" because in entitled the holder to a 35% tax exemption for the first 10 years in the Netherlands. The bad news is that this exemption has been reduced to 30% effective next year. The good news is that the top tax bracket has been reduced to 50%, so if you are in the top bracket (and you don't have to make too much to put you there) you will still net more than you would have under the old system. The net effect is that taxes are on par with what you are used to paying in the US.
By far the easiest way to eliminate the immigration hassle is to find some way to transfer within an international company that has a Dutch office. If you can pull this off, your case should proceed quickly.
In any case, YOU should not have to worry too much about the complexities involved. Any company that you would want to work for will have an international HR contact that will apply for your work permit (tewerkstellingvergunning) and help with relocation. As for the residence permit (verblijfsvergunning), I found the process simple, but irratating. You will need all of your documents in order (be sure to get an 'apositile' from your state department of records for legal records like birth and marriage certificates) before you make your initial appointment. You probably won't have some document (or, rather, as one official put it, "you don't have the right seal on your birth certificate"), so you will have to make another appointment, get the right documents in order, and try again.
Somethings are actually easier than you think. For instance, buying a house and getting a mortgage are easier than in the US.
For whatever its worth, I moved 18 months ago, and if I knew then what I knew now, I would not hesitate to make the same decision. I still don't know the language very well, but I find Amsterdam in particular to be very international. You will probably be working with people from all over the world.
As for the pay issues, it varies widely. If you work for a Dutch company, it would be wise to expect a lower salary, but additional vacation days and maybe a car lease. On the other hand, international companies which have offices here tend to pay their employees about the same as their US based counterparts. Good Luck!
In fact, Microsoft, Oracle, Sun, Intel, Lotus, Netscape, AOL, HP, Lucent, all have their European development headquarters in Ireland.
I could add a lot more to that list if I tried.
Considering the shortage of IT-Workers in Germany, actually getting a job should be no trouble at all.
As an Italian IT worker, I can tell you that you can't expect high salary levels unless you're going to work for a very big company, or for a local representative of some world corporate. There's a lot of IT work, but companies are not willing to pay it more than a standard administrative office job. There's not a specific category contract, and you can get hired under a wide tipology of contracts related to the company's main activity, rather than to your tasks. If you work for a commercial firm, you'll be hired as a commercial office clerk. If you work for an production company, you'll be a metalmechanic office clerk. There's not an IT category. Language can be a problem. Italians are not very skilled about english, and you can't expect high levels of understanding. So you better learn some local language basic stuff or have some older english-speaking colleague who can get you into things.
I would ask you if you have been to the US. I've been to europe on several occaisions and in my opinion I would have to make triple what I make here in the US to live at the same level anywhere in the EU. At my income in the EU I couldn't afford the things that I take for granted in the US ie: daily 1/2 hour long hot showers, a house with a fair amount of square footage, a big gas guzzling car, a case of Coke a week, etc. You can have your free health care, I can afford to buy my own insurance so it isn't that big of an advantage.
But in Japan you not only have a language barrier, but an alphabet barrier, and a reading and writing barrier (Japanese isn't read the same way english is). That would make it very difficult, unless you want to get schooled up in the language over a few years.
--
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
Linux and KDE are no way of measuring innovation of a country. Maybe, Americans spend more time working instead of donating to open source, making themselves more valuable to their company.
Currently, most new products are designed here and built somewhere else, so your example of Japan is void.
My evidence, the world recognizes that we have superior universities. Not just in Yale and Stanford, but across the board, a significant percentage of atendees are international. This just shows that the expertise is most centered here.
Discussion Never Hurt Anyone.
Libertarians
Very few people are trying to screw you. They offer you goods and then you accept them, and afterward you bitch. No one forced you to do anything here. If the people at the store were unkind, don't go back, if every store is like that it's because the majority people prefer that over the alternative, and you are in the minority. If you think that's not the reason then why are these the businesses that are sucessful?
You make agressive statements, but don't back them up. Basically you bitch.
Discussion Never Hurt Anyone.
Libertarians
Wal-Mart was having trouble opening stores there because they demanded that the workers be nice to the customers.
Beats me.
Discussion Never Hurt Anyone.
Libertarians
Sure, I'll gladly agree my high school was filled with a large number of morons (graduated from a california public school in 99), BUT, those people aren't looking for IT jobs, much less looking for them overseas. Keep this question in context, and the answer is NO. Take it out of context, as you all have, and the answer is YES. Give credit where credit is due, there are a large number of brilliant and skilled kids coming out of american schools, they just dont receive the credit they're due because of the huge number at the other end of the spectrum on which you all seem to focus.
Mooniacs for iOS and Android
What's with this need to have everything bigger and better? Do you really need to have a car that will do 250 Kph? Does your dinner really need to be ready in 'just five minutes'?
How often do you think Americans eat fast food? I probably eat fast food once every 2 weeks. The fact is most adults do not like fast food (kids love it), but they do like the convenience. You're stereotype there is way off.
Who are you talking about referring to fast cars? Italy? Germany?
I think the problem here is you're watching some American TV and you believe it! Trust me, don't believe anything you see on TV.
Why do I keep typing pythong?
I live in the US and I'm not offended by the truth in which you've bestowed upon us!
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
Gruss H.
I'll never understand you ACs.
Unless you're suggesting that speech with the netherworld is a more common resource in Europe?!? - Man, I gotta go!
Just wondering if anybody had any ideas what the IT employment situation is like in Japan? How easy would it be for a British citizen (or a US one) to get a work visa and a job in Tokyo?
Anybody have any experience of this?
The ground rules are pretty much the same. If you are educated, have no criminal record and can find a company to sponsor you, then you will be able to get work authorization.
A thing to be aware of are that you will be going against the tide for a reason. EU techy citizens move to the US because of higher pay, lower taxes and a chance to work within a richer group of tech companies. You can expect lower pay, higher taxes and a more limited range of employers over there.
Nevertheless, I think its is pretty much a requirement of having an interesting life to live in more than one country. So go and do it.
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
Which services wouldn't he be able to use?
I am currently temporarily working in Germany, and I find it very annoying that I pay full pension and unemployment insurance every month but have no right to take advantage of these "benefits". If it were simply included in "tax" then I would not really be complaining, but since it is detailed on my pay slip on separate lines I can see exactly how much money I am throwing away.
So what's up with Ottawa?
Nutshells: Bob Chiarelli is going to be mayor of the new "mega-city." Almost all of the region voted in Liberal candidates in the recent federal election. A small two-seater airplane crashed into the middle of Hull; fortunately, nobody on the ground was hurt. Duplicated street names are being changed in preparation for municipal amalgamation.
But why isn't anyone else asking for interviews from up there? Perhaps I've picked the wrong handful of companies?
Hmm, that's rather surprising. Nortel and JDS Uniphase are currently undergoing ridiculous expansion (almost disturbing, in fact). Telecom experience would be an asset for both those places, but I'm sure any computer science background will get you somewhere.
Maybe that's it; maybe they're looking for more experienced people. I'm not sure. I'm looking at the moment.
--
Accountability on the heads of the powerful.
Power in the hands of the accountable.
Something to remember...
Quebec, always eager to assert their sovereignty, might have different labour laws from the rest of Canada. I don't know anything about it, so I can't say anything specific, other than that you should not assume that things are identical between Quebec and the other provinces.
You might get some useful information from the Government of Quebec website.
Good luck.
--
Accountability on the heads of the powerful.
Power in the hands of the accountable.
I don't know your reasons for wanting to work outside the US, but if it's French specifically, then I can recommend West Quebec and Eastern Ontario, in Canada. Companies are really hurting for IT people here, just like in the States.
I live in Ottawa, which is just on the border between Quebec and Ontario. Although the lingua franca of Ottawa is English, there is a great mixture of French and English speakers here.
As a matter of fact, I'm currently taking private French lessons. (For myself, it's a mostly a matter of my personal Canadian identity.) I find that there's a lot of opportunity to hear spoken French (radio and television), so conditions for learning the language are superb.
A few plugs for Ottawa. We are experiencing quite an explosion of high tech here. The city is extremely well kept, urban sprawl is kept (somewhat) at bay by designated green spaces, and I understand the public transportation infrastructure is amazing compared to most US cities. The twelve municipalities that used to comprise the Ottawa area are also being amalgamated into a single city, and hopefully, this will promote well coordinated urban planning for the whole region.
Finally, as a Slashdot reader, you might also be pleased to know that Ottawa is fairly keen on Linux and the whole "open-source" movement.
The big downside of Ottawa, currently, is a chokingly tight housing/rental market.
Canada may not be "foreign" enough for you, but I'm sure it would be much, much easier to find work here than overseas. I just wanted to mention it.
--
Accountability on the heads of the powerful.
Power in the hands of the accountable.
>
;)
I think the Germans already tried to put themselees between the English and the French.
Personally, I'd annex the Sudetenland.
- MFN
"Slow down, Cowboy! It has been 3 years, 7 months and 26 days since you last successfully posted a comment."
www.irishindependent.com/2000/75/d01i.shtml Developers are like gold in Ireland.
Two things pmancini ...
1) Language: When you say you can get by in Italian, what do you mean? Asking for coffees? Intermediate (renting a flat, opening a bank account), Advanced (possibly working in the language everyday) or Fluent?
My basic point is that yes Italian and French are both latin languages, but they are very different in many ways. Two months is nowhere near enough time even if you were Italian and spoke fluent Italian. I live in Spain, am English and having been learning Spanish for over 2 years, I'm nowhere near it yet ... I've studied damn hard and I'm just about Advanced-ish. I know Italian people here learning Spanish (a lot more similar to Italian, than French), they've been studying for a few years and they're not near it yet.
The saving grace is that the IT world speak English, but only when they feel like it and not everybody. You need to remember the following:
a) if you've got desirable specialist skills then you're in for a better chance.
b) the French (excuse any French readers for the generalisation of you) are very proud of their language and will not necessarily either speak English or be willing to speak English to you!
For example, I know for a fact that a lot of French companies employ those from Quebec when looking for North American IT people.
2) Secondly, bear in mind that as a US citezen, you do not qualify for a work visa in France (or any other EC country for that matter). The only way you'll do it is either by working illegally, by getting sponsorship from a French company contracting you for your special skills or by an internal company transfer by a multi-national.
Not trying to put you off or anything, far from it. I wholeheartedly encourage you to go for it (the steamed mussles and fries are wonderful ... and the pave au poive, c'est manafique!). But it'll be difficult, so get prepared. You might find Holland easier as they do business in English... but if you can't get in legally, then some 'under-the-table' bar work might be in order!
Not encouraging anything honest :-)
Cheers,
Mike.
I work for a French research company, at our England office, and my French sucks. I've spent some time in the French office, and found that most of the other coders spoke some level of English (especially the research guys with Phds), so communication wasn't really a problem. Communicating in restaurants wasn't so easy though... Most books on software engineering are written in English, so our coding norms (and probably others') are in American English, as well as most of the coder's websites. *BUT* you don't code well in isolation, so you'll need to pick up some French slang pretty damn quick :-)
Tanulok is magyarul, de nagyon lassan. Nyelv nehéz es nekem van nem ido. Talán írhetünk. Kellem gyakorlatot nagyon sok. Beszél hozzád has érdekelt vagy.
I'll go for the German ones
And we all know that if NPR says it, it must be true. Please, if anything, Japan loves Americans. When I went over, they treated me like a king.
Can people please stop posting this in every single thread related to either the US or the rest of the world? I've seen it way too many times now.
If it ain't broke, you need more software.
Europe is a big and diverse place I have been there I lived there I have family there. I also work for a British owned Software Company in the US. I work with many British citizens who tell a different story. I know for a fact that Europe is not the shining light people make it out to be. First Europeans have better health care ONLY COMPAIRED TO NO HEALTH CARE Most European have a universal health care it almost always sucks beyond belief. People often have to be put on waiting list for months before being able to get an operation or even to have a MRI, this goes for emergency cases as well. It may be better than no care but just barely. What often doesn't get said is the number of people die waiting to get care in Europe. Second Better public transportation If Europe was a rural as the US and GAS was not so insanely priced this would not be the case. They have this because they have no choice. Third. better roads Only in Germany and France. But when you go to Portugal, Spain, Italy, UK, not the case by a long way also France and Germany have a fraction of the road to build and maintain. Forth many more cultural choices Again wrong. You need to travel some in the US look at places like south Florida New England, Texas , the mid west and the many faces of the west coast. The US is a culturally diverse Europe having many more choices only if you think culture is talking a different language or needing to have a passport stamped. This is just bullshit. Standard of living IF you think lining in a small apartment and driving a gas sipping car I high standard of living. If you want to have land or a V8 you better be in the top one present al gore keeps talking about in Europe. After taxes you will not do well. The US Crime rate has to do more with our drug policy than any indication of the state of lawlessness. European countries are "socialist" is pretty ridiculous. European countries are free market economies Free markets have little to do with making a government "socialist" It has to do with government ownership of businesses that can and often do compete in the free markets. (Often badly). Europe is a good place to visit. It is a bad place to live it you are middle class. Rich not bad. poor OK. but middle class the US is much better.
I'd put German between English and French. But overall I think that's about right.
You are, of course, joking right. I have been in Japan for ten years and I have yet to be told that I can't go somewhere because I am a "foreign devil" - not counting the a couple places in the "soap land" - red light district - area, where I wandered by mistake. (And even there they politely told me that I probably didn't want to go in, as I could get sex for free somewhere else, as I was a "handsome foreigner" - true on the free sex; sadly, not quite true on the handsome part. Hell, I have even gotten into places that the locals can't get in. In many of the "Onsens" - hot springs - they have signs banning people with tattoos - this is aimed mostly at keeping away the members of the Japanese organized crime, Yakuza. Much to the shock of my Japanese friends, I was only asked ONCE to cover my tattoo. Not asked to leave, not denied entry, not attacked with a cleaver, not ... you get the drift.
I often go to areas frequented by the US military personnel, and while at first people look at me "funny" they soon warm up to me and treat me REALLY WELL. Being 180cm /100Kg, into sports, and having short hair, I am easily confused to one of the "drunken Marines" who seem to do their best to make a bad impression on the locals. In my "hometown" - Hiroshima - I am treated no different from any of the locals. (Actually that's not quite true, the local cops do treat me a bit differently after I trashed a group of the local bad boys - "bosozoku," young men on NOISY bikes. The cops often come to my office to tell me that my car is illegally parked, and that I will get a fine "next time" and, by the way, they have heard that I am on the "bosozoku" black list and I should be careful, and that they hope the "bosozoku" will not attack me because I could get in trouble if I end up putting any of them in the hospital again. But I digress ... :)
I am NOT in any way saying the Japan is the perfect country, ask my Japanese friends and they'll tell you that they are tired of my complains, but it is by and large a much better place than the US, or even Canada - with the possible exception of Vancouver. And yes, I have lived, as opposed to "travlled to", in MANY other countries around the world.
"Consistency is contrary to nature, contrary to life. The only completely consistent people are the dead." A. Huxley
1. Fortran as a language is much more optimizable by the compiler than C or especially C++, and as a result relatively naive Fortran code runs as fast as hand-optimized C code.
2. Experimental physicists aren't in the business of writing software, so they'll continue to use whatever tools they already have to do what they need to do, and will write new software in the quickest, easiest way possible (i.e. in Fortran since all the important scientific codes are written in Fortran).
All is Number -Pythagoras.
I tried getting work in UK and Switzerland after graduating. As a Canadian citizen, I assume that it would be as easy or easier then an American citizen (Commenwealth and all). It wasn't easy. It wasn't even doable. They wanted me to pay to go there for interviews - because I was a new grad. They said that I would have to obtain my own sponsorship to work there - even though they said they were desperate for people. Protectionism is a pain in the ass.
Unless you're currently living in Manhattan, I think you'll find the cost of living in the UK at least will be _higher_ than the US. Rent is expensive (esp. in London), utilities are expensive, petrol (as everybody knows) is expensive. I lived in the UK for 9 years (dual citizen) and, while there are a number of good points about life there, cost of living is not one of them. Italy may be cheaper (I've only visited) but I doubt it's much cheaper. Rural housing in France is cheap, but that's not where you're going to find a job... Your purchasing power will certainly decline substantially with a move to Europe, but so what? You may be happier and you'll earn enough to get home if you want ;o)
It's also too bad that the average German national (at least those paticipating in O-fest) likely has an alcohol tolerance that would make Ted Kennedy envious, meaning it'd probably be the visiting American to collapse under the table first. Better start those practice rounds of Quarters now if you want any chance of staying conscious for Oktoberfest 2001.
That work contract you signed is just that: A contract & "Human rights" do not in any way excuse you from your oblications in a court of law (prudhommes). I've seen it happen. Large companies are more than willing to use any means possible to "punish" as much as possible key workers who jump ship to discourage others who may be thinking about it. The higher you get in these companies the more likely it is that it'll happen. Paying one guy for three months to do shit work in a tiny office is a tiny price to pay if that means the others keep working.
I'd advise you to look at your work contract a little closer before giving advice that could get someone else burned...
Democracy is a sheep and two wolves deciding what to have for lunch. Freedom is a well armed sheep contesting the issue
Please email the contact info for that company.I'll pay you lots of money if the job is still available and I get it or get a similar one Thanks adseligman@removefromaddress.yahoo.com
Haven't had to use Italy's health care system. It is a socailist system however so it should be low cost and universal coverage. My comments about cramped rooms was an observation I made when I went to see a cousin who had just had a baby. Boy that hospital was noisy. Halls were cramped full of people. This was for a major hospital in a ciy of 100,000 people. There are probably better hospitals out there but I would guess that what I saw was the average.
I haven't worked in Italy but have visited many times.
Pros:
Food
Fashion
Attractions
People (if you don't know them they can be rude though)
Cons:
Government
Economy
Health Care (I have seen 6 people per room compared to 2 in US)
Back in the early Pentium days I helped my brother pick up a computer. Seemed like all their stores were 6 months behind the times, including ones in Rome.
If you aren't a citizen then you may not be eligiable for governmen jobs. Check on it. Also, there doesn't seem to be that great of a job market. A full time grocery cashier is considered a permanent (and good) job.
Finally, when I said government is a "con" above it's because it is SO inefficient. Trying to get a government document out of them is like trying to find new secrets in a game - you poke all over the place until you stumble across the right person to help you. Banks over there are another adventure. Often you wait in line for an hour just to do a simple transaction with a person who is smoking in your face and has no customer service skills whatsoever - no joke, seen it first hand.
As others have mentioned - probably best is to find an American company that has an outfit in one of the 2 countries you mention. However, if you maintain residency in the US and travel back and forth you WILL have to pay taxes in the US for the earnings you make overseas.
Final note... When you get quoted a salary for a job in Italy that price is after taxes. My relatives are impressed with my US salary until I tell them that income tazes are removed.
However I don't earn much of my living here. I like to live in the tropics, and wages suck. If you were prepared to live down in Sydney you could probably find wages around 1/2 the US equivalent. Up here it's more like 1/10.
So instead I do contract work for US clients, and make frequent visits there. Viva la Internet! Viva la QANTAS.
I am forunate enough to work for a large IT corporation that handles global accounts, and we have NUMEROUS overseas positions, especially in the investment banking industry. check it out here. And I'm NOT a recruter, just a happy, well-paid help desk junkie.
Hi Cliff,
I've had the pleasure of working with people from all over the world, specially US and Europe (Currently work in Colorado -- not, I'm not a HB1...)
I'm a U**x Systems Administrator, and I can safely say that you should have no problems with cultural- and language barriers in Europe. At least not in the IT field. The professions' language is English, anyways, right.
Off course, this WILL depend a little on what country you'd like to live in. France and the lower countries tend to be a little less English proficient, but in Scandinavia, Germany and Great Britain, that shouldn't be a problem. At least not at work...
I'm a contractor working in Spain for a European subsidiary of a major US IT corporation. I was locally hired and fall under Spanish labor laws, which happen to be *strongly* biased towards the worker. I'd suggest looking for a similar position, i.e. a US company doing business over here. There will be somewhat less of a corporate culture shock (they'll be used to having had Americans around) and may be more accomodating regarding language skills. There are quite a few IT jobs here if you have the background, age (yes, they do discriminate), and a work permit. The suggestion to obtain a visa is a good one and a low-overhead exercise. To get one that authorizes you to obtain employment may be a different story altogether. "Don't leave home without it!" (tm) If you shop around first, you may find a position with someone who would be willing to sponsor you - get used to the idea of having to become a European resident - during the contractual period. Aim high and shoot low - there are a lot of sharp *native* people here who will always be in line ahead of you, and there is an overwhelming amount of internal promotion, i.e. it's rare to see ads for senior management types. If all that's not too depressing, and you get it together, you'll enjoy working in a culturally diverse, challenging environment. Yeah, it's a hassle at times, but the quality of life is infinitely better. Oh yeah - don't worry about taxes until you break the $80k ceiling. Do keep declaring to Uncle Sam, and file locally so you get back most of what you put it. Good luck...
Supposedly, one may learn the Chinese system of writing (kanji, a non-phonetic writing system) well enough to read a newspaper within a month. You just need a decent book on the topic.
Try James W. Heisig's "Remembering the Kanji" volumes 1 and 2, ISBN 0-87040-739-2 and ISBN (JAPAN) 4-88996-002-3. You might be able to get it at Amazon if you don't mind them. They supposedly approach learning the system similiarly to the way a native learns, by using a set of stories to help you remember the kanji. I'm pretty certain, though, that the stories used are different from the ones taught to a native, due to cultural differences.
And so it goes.
From personal experience, I know that the US government has Double Taxation Agreements (DTA) with several countries. (The UK in my case.) In a covered country, it usually prevents someone from being double-taxed. It also can protect the foreign country (eg the UK) from continuing to want to tax you when you return. (The DTA saved my bacon.)
For about 2 years, many startups start to get
some troubles to find skilled people in IT technology in France.
Moreover they do not care if you do not speak French, because they start to be used to work
in English even in France.
I have been working with American, Australian, French and German people in Paris last year.
We were used to speak english in the office as well as in the Metro.
Hehehe.
This guy was counting on some sort of response, preferably from French and you just played right into it
Healthcare in Europe doesnt work. Its bankrupting the countries.. at some point the system collapses its only a matter of time. Healthcare costs continue to rise as a proportion of GNP in the US and Europe, about %13 this year and expected %17 in 5 years. Neither the US or European systems work.. we are headed to a massive breakdown of public healthcare. Right now today more money is spent on insurance paper-pushing then the entire US military budget. Take a look at Communisim and Russia to see what happens when the system collapes - life expetency starts to reverse. The solution is a mix of public, private and insurance depending on the need: tax dollars shouldnt be paying for your Viagra pills, however they should be paying for your nicotine patches to quit somokeing. Another problem is %33 of all health costs happen in the last 2 weeks of life! We blow 1/3 of all our money to live an extra 2 weeks. This needs to be redistributed.
In the UK, smoking in workplaces has been banned for more than a decade. You still can smoke in designated places or outdoors.
I'm too sexy for you.
Well, he already knows Italian, which gives him a huge head start.
(To bring this on topic) I don't think knowing the language is a requirement to working overseas, but it certainly helps.
If you need web hosting, you could do worse than here
Now, forget about the language, or the culture thing, I would pick depending on the babes overseas.
So, Slashdot, who's sexier, French, Italian or German babes?
I can only recommend Switzerland. Of course, you might consider me biased, as having grown up there. You get decent salaries, affordable taxes, and excellent public services. Due to the country being multilingual (four official languages), people know about foreign languages, and you will always be able to find help, even if you don't speak one of these four, but only English :-)
If you are looking for a position, there are several online resources available (use this link for research-related jobs.
For Germany (and many other parts of Europe), Die Zeit (a German newspaper) offers good job search opportunities, with a lot of links to other, more specialized sites.
Wherever you want to go: Get a company interested in hiring you, then they will do all the paperwork for you (and they are typically effective at doing so). No worries, no lawyers to pay etc.
-Marcel
Somehow, I managed to keep a straight face in both instances. They asked me completely seriously, too.
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
Hey, If you are a good engineer you will surely find a Job in Europe or Japan. I worked in a Spanish company and they had people from US and other countries. Your best bet is to find a global company or a local company that want to sell to US. So you will not need, in the beginning, to know the local language. But be a bilingual person is sure a PLUS because :
1. You can browse foreign jobs sites.
2. You will be able to talk to other people outside your job.
For those who want to know more about working/living in Japan just visit the site http://www.workinjapan.com and write your questions in the BBS. Someone will answer for you... or leave your contact to me here.
Other things you should be aware :
1. Cultural shock. Most of people feel a cultural shock after sometime.
2. Cost of moving. You will have to sell your stuff in US and then buy in your new country.
I've been working in Strasbourg ( France ) for 6 months. I'll probably go to Paris for a new contract in the next weeks. IMHO the things that you need to consider:
1) You will make less money than in the US.
I'm coming from Quebec and I could have made much more money in the US. The cost of living is lower but if you're coming from the US you must be conscious that you're making financial "sacrifices".
2) You need to be functional in the language.
It's an american fiction that everybody is talking english. ( I have a very hard time to understand the "english" spoke by the frenchs and the "english" spoke by the germans. If you have a hard time understanding the peoples from England or Australia don't even think about it! )
3) Every country in the world is looking for IT peoples!
If they need you, they will find a way to get you there. ( And they really need you! ) At least that's my feeling. But I'm a SAP R/3 consultant so...
4) You will live a better life over there.
Cognac, foie gras, months of vacations, two hours for lunch ( with the wine and the digestive ) etc., etc., etc. Do I need to say more? But don't listen to me I'm biased. ( Don't forget that I choosed to work over there! )
5) This is NOT the US of A
You probably already know that but it's always good to remember that you can't bear arms, gasoline will cost ~$4/gallon, you don't talk about salary, socialism is GOOD, you will shake hands all the time etc., etc.
The easiest way for you is probably to find a compagny that will hire you to go work in europe. ( It worked for me! ) It will save you all the paperwork since they already done it a zillion time and you may have some fiscal advantages working that way. ( In my case it let you fall ( legally! ) betwwen two fiscal systems. You don't pay taxes in France and you don't eally pay taxes in Canada neither!
But as one of the earlier posters suggested the easiest way for you to get a taste of "europe" is probably to go for a couple of weeks in Quebec. ( North-eastern part of north america if you have some problems with your geography! )
If you need more information send me an email.
Louis-Frédéric Michaud
I am US citizen currently living in Paris, France and employed by a company that's building services based on OS products that they financially sponsor.
Obviously every company and situation are going to be vastly different. If you can speak any French, it's going to help. I can't! Here's a few things to consider:
The job market seems to be healthy. I'm not interested in working for anyone else but have recieved several offers. I work as a contractor. Consider the following issues with care:
As a contractor, you're responsible for delivering a product. Nobody can tell you what hours to work. Just deliver. After becoming comfortable with your responsibilities, a trip to Amsterdam will be in order. Don't ask for permisson, just do it. You're not looking for work, it's an experience that you're after.
OK, I have been in the country for a couple weeks, I haven't eaten anything in 36 hours and I'm ready to break down. I go to a restuarant and recognize one word on the menu. It's a favorite dish, my eyes swell, I'm grateful for my fortune. I order "sausage." Within 15 minutes the waiter delivers a dish that's odor reminds me of a backed up sewer. The adrenalin rush keeps me from snapping, I hide my frustration and out of desperation take one bite. It's pig's guts and balls, "annuette" (sic).
I better comment on the French people. I think they're very fine people. They're polite and genuine if you are. Anyone that learns to tolerate and appreciate me, is a damned fine people. All the points in this letter are my first hand experience. The French have accomodated me to the letter. I have been asked to extend my contract and probably will. Although, I've informed them that I'd prefer to live in the US. I am loyal to my employer and will work myself to death because they're good to me.
One last reality check. I left a dog in the US. Everyone loved this dog, 100ish pound black lab. I taught him to sit on top the kitchen table when people were eating and to jump up on everyone. Everything a dog shouldn't do he did and he was loved for it. I left him in a house with nine people who he lived with. They loved him and treated him better than I did. I suspect, I was his first master. He happily did what was expected and stopped being a runner within four weeks of being with me. Punishment for running away was a plate of human food. The day I left for Paris, he stopped eating, four months later he died. My point, you'll pay the price and in return you should be compensated. Good Luck!
I think the best option would be to find an American company that's willing to send you overseas. That way, you'll be able to use your US language and your US $'s (which currently go a LONG way in Europe) in a European country where you can "slowly" adapt to the European culture/language/etc. I know of at least a few companies that have difficulties finding US people to go overseas to start or continue operations there... For instance - I'm from Holland, started to work in the US, and will be going back to a European office of that same US company but on a US salary :-) Bit of "best of both worlds" it seems.
Also - I vouch for Sophia Antipolis, as I've worked there and am still scratching my head as to why I ever left. It really is the silicon valley of Europe but the weather, nature and way of living is "Grrrrreat!".
Some of us have fallen in love with the notion of giving without reserve-Raoul Vanegiem, Revolution of Everyday Life
Yes, the government TRY to banish english-esque words. But it's only work if you actually work for a government agency. All others company doesn't fuck up with this and let everybody use the word they have always used (in general English words).
> SAN Petersberg? WTF? It's ST. Petersberg.
It's Sankt Peterburg.
Do they have any restrictions there? Aargh.. there are many countries in Asia and Eastern Europe. And all of them have their own laws.
What's with this need to have everything bigger and better? Do you really need to have a car that will do 250 Kph? Does your dinner really need to be ready in 'just five minutes'?
If socialism can get me a 20 hour work week, a nice (not opulent) place to live and reduce the amount of CO I have to inhale on my cycle to work, well then Sign me up!
--'I wouldn't live there if you paid me' - The Talking HeadsIf the only tool you have is a hammer, you'd better start looking for a carpentry job.
As it would have been better for distancing yourself from the french. Both spanish and french are romantic languages (along with italian, and a few others). This means they are all directly descended from latin. German, on the other hand, is a germanic (wow, where'd they get that name) language, in the same family as english. I've often found that I can *almost* figure out what someone is saying / writing in spanish, just because I took 5 years of french in high school.
It may look like I'm doing nothing, but I'm actively waiting for my problems to go away.
--Scott Adams
Go so far as to sew a canadian flag on your backpack. The only one who's going to know is the customs official who lets you into the country, and is he really going to care? Just make sure you study the names of the provinces and capitals first. It's much easier than your country, we only have 13, not 50. You could also go the extra step of choosing your "home city" and learning a couple of relevant facts about it to impress people who've only heard about it.
It may look like I'm doing nothing, but I'm actively waiting for my problems to go away.
--Scott Adams
Not to mention being able to elect a prime minister with a minimum of hassle.
It may look like I'm doing nothing, but I'm actively waiting for my problems to go away.
--Scott Adams
Plus there's that whole Oktoberfest thing, where the entire country is soused for a month, drastically increasing all chances of scoring. It's too bad we only do it for a weekend here :(
It may look like I'm doing nothing, but I'm actively waiting for my problems to go away.
--Scott Adams
If you go outside Tokyo, either you are in teritory where they don't know and don't really care, or in teritory where they are discomforted. But these things are obvious, so if you ask around or make some calls before you make any decisions, you should have no problem.
Actually, Canada is doing just fine fiscally. We've had balanced budgets for a few years now, and are racking up fairly large multi-billion dollar surpluses. Paying down the large mountain of previously acquired debt is another matter, however it is being done slowly. For every little bit knocked of the deficit the federal government has more cash to spend on social programs.
Define having troubles. All the troubles are caused by politicians adovcating tax cuts. The Ontario government recently granted and across the board $200 dollar tax cut. For most people that is a nice present, but not significant. On the other hand it represented a billion or two dollars in lost health/education/enivronmental/infrastructure spending.
Keep your US salary? Not over here. It's roughly half of what you would get in the US, and that's in the major cities ie. Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Perth (where I live). Anywhere else, its less. Quite a few Aussies in the tech industry want to move to the US because the pay is so much better over there - I certainly do. But if you really want to come here - C++ is the most desired language, followed by Java, so you're in with more than a fighting chance. Good luck :)
My French is awful
Don't be afraid, their Inglish is even worse, and zey have that outrageous accent - though zey fart in your general direction.
Consider working at the fringe of Europe--in Central Europe, Prague has quite a bit happening or somewhere North like Oslo, where there is a huge shortage. The people who work in IT typically speak English and value you more for your technical skills than your language skills. So many of the projects cross borders, that English ends up being the working language. Your biggest problem will be the visa however, and this is why working in the fringe countries will increase your odds of employment.
Yes, starting a small business is the easiest way to do this, especially a consulting one.
Note that you will be limited to working 35 hours a week, and must comply with all labor laws, even if it's your firm. This is not a joke, and you will suffer severe penalties if they hear you pulled off three late night coding sessions in a row. Since you're not French, they'll probably jail you to make a point. If you're American, they will also mock you for it.
You can get a special passport if you own a business there. This allows you to work more easily.
Remember, the French invented the bureaucracy and we take the word for it from them. Don't try to cut corners - this is not Italy where you can just bribe your way out of regulations.
Have fun!
--- Will in Seattle - What are you doing to fight the War?
Just a hunch, but it might be because we dropped a couple of big ass bombs on them. I think something like that would stay with me for a while.
I recommend Dirty Little Secrets of World War II by James Dunnigan and Albert Nofi.
And the bombs were justified when looking at the predictions of casualties of an amphibious assault on Japan's main island. The devotion of the Japanese to the Emperor was blinding. A nation full of kamikaze soldiers, would have forced extremely high casualties on both sides. For the staggering destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, right or wrong it saved lives on both sides.
A few years ago I worked for a company Games-Workshop, and they sent me from the US to their offices in Nottingham UK.
I never got a visa myself, and I was in charge of trying to hire staff from Japan. It was a HORRIBL process. In order to get them (and they were about 1000LB each) we had to prove that the japanese lads could provide a service that no out of work Englishman could do. (at the time .. there was a job shortage in europe .. i dont know how it is now.)
In fact , being a US citizen, they couldn't even GET me a visa .. so I was permanantly on 'Training Trips' (i had to go back to the US every 30 days - which worked out nice for me)
they also had to pay me from the US office.
so I dont know how easy it would be now. However, The company im working in conjunction with NOW (proxicom) has offices in both london and france and can move staff from their DC/NYC/Cali offices to there in times of need. Im not sure how that works, but you might want to look into contracting positions that post overseas.
--Ne auderis delere orbem rigidum meum, non erravi pernicose!
If your parents or grandparents are/where citizens of any European Union country (i.e. Italy, UK, Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Spain, France, Germany, Austria, Holand, Netherlands, Belgium, etc). You'll be able to gain an EU passport,
Once you have that you are able work in any/all EU countries, without requiring a seperate work visa.
people forget that we have had a dictator and fought you in world war two
Though only about half the Italians, the rest where communist (shsh..!) partisans who fought alongside the Allies.
I think the skills shortage means the difference, between US and Canadian citizens is theoretical rather than actual.
English is the language of IT across Europe (except France). In Germany it's almost as common as German.
If your going to do it not is definitly the time.
Europe is currently is a massive Boom (the low Euro makes for cheap exports) consequently there is the usual shortage of skilled workers, any skilled workers, associated with booms.
In the UK for example, an experienced IT person, using recruitement agencies could find a new position in about a week. In fact you'll almost certainly be picking over multiple offers (No kidding). So you might as well take your time.
You'll find salary levels vary considerable with skill set. Overtime pay is normal for techies, 4-5weeks + ~5-8days statuary holidays, fully expensed company cars (but tax disadvantages) in most positions above senior programmer/team leader.
The best bit, Safe Streets, little or no gun crime!
I understand that SUN are looking (or at least were looking 6 months ago) for people to work on Chorus in either in Versailles (Paris) or in in Grenoble.
I am guessing that there will be visa implications as an American citizen but I don't think that these are too onerous.
The language barrier will be a problem, I think you would have less issues working in Denmark/Holland (especially) or Germany but that is generalising. If you're out on your own then the first year can be a bit tough, but after that it will all depend on how much you like the place.
The EU is a closed job market, but what about Asia and Eastern Europe, do they have any restrictions on foreigners working there?
from personal experience, I'd say:
Europe -
claim to be canadian, show certain M$ tech experience and don't yell linux all the time;
explain the difficulties of open source without forcing your point on everyone. don't make jokes during the interview and let them ask a question or two and you should get a job;
Australia -
claim to from 'The Valley', use linux, bdss and oss in every sentence twice; violently oppose M$, wear slacks and bring iced beer to the interview;
Southeast Asia -
claim to be Bill Gates' illegitimite son or linus' long lost half brother - depending if you want to work for a big company or a start-up;
show keen interest in VC and expansion possibilities, claim to be 'connected' to VCs and buddies in 'The Valley', use catch phrase, invent new ones and make sure they don't understand what you say - if they do, they think you are just talking...
Okay, it's a bit over the top, but not much. Europeans hire Americans, only if they don't have a choice, Asians hire Americans, cause it's great to have 'first hand experts'.
Either case, salaries, bonuses, etc are lower than in the US. Much lower. But you can negotiate extra, un-official benefits, such as top accommodation, company car, first class travel, etc. - and, you get to play with the latest toys.
In Asia, getting approval for new hardware is a breeze [pick up the phone and say: "I want, because the competition doesn't have yet..." and you get anything you ask for.
Finally, job security is best in Europe, but they also expect loyalty in return. A job surfer has limited chances to be desirable after changing compies twice or trice - word passes fast.
In Asia, job security for foreign IT experts is the lowest. If the company is in trouble [or doing great] and/or if one of their cousins claims he can do your job, you are history [even if the cousin can't]. However, Asians headhunt like nuts. Meaning, you'd get job offers from collegues whose uncle is starting his own IT company, from customers who like dealing with you, although they have no clue what exactly it is you are doing and from everyone else you talk to...
Really. I feel I must point out a problem with that.
The Japanese will often use Hiroshima and Nagasaki as devices for pity. It is often overlooked that Japan needed to be stoped as a military prescene in East Asia. Why do you think the Chinese and Koreans hate the Japanese? Maybe you might want to read into subjects like Japan's takeover of Manchuria, and the Rape of Nanjin.
Hell, read about it here: Click me!
Now, does this justify the A bomb? I don't want to be a troll, so I'll leave that to the philosophers.
I remember reading that one of the Scandinavian countries had an income tax that could theoretically be greater than 100%.
I think it was in Guinness, but I'm not sure.
Ben Franklin, iirc, found that knowing Latin made it easier to learn French.
I also found that while studying French, I gined a greater technical understanding of English (the logic behind certain constructions, mainly).
short answer: no, the finding part is not a problem.
minus the part about being senior anything, i'm in a similar situation. a u.s. citizen with half an engineering degree and 6+ years of IT industry job experience, i live and work in france. i've *just* finished going through the process of acquiring a work visa and residence permit. though one would think that this would feel very similar to sitting on an anthill after bathing in honey, it was, in fact, an exceptionally painless process. there is, without a doubt, an exceptional demand for qualified IT workers in western europe, as in the states.
tips for getting over the bureaucratic hurdles:
-it's essential that you find the job *before* trying to start the process of getting the visa. i'd recommend perusing any of the major european jobsites, or even monster. you need to make sure that your prospective employers understand what it means for them to hire a foreigner. (they are required to officially "sponsor" your visa, which means that they have to pass inspections and pay some fees).
-once you find the job that you want, it is your employer's responsibility to start the administrative ordeal. your part is basically to sit back and wait for contact from the French embassy or consulate with jurisdiction for your area.
-don't even think about trying to do this while in France. you need to have the visa *in* your passport *before* entering France; otherwise, things get fabulously more complicated.
from my experience, most of the senior-level positions are located either in paris or the cote d'azur, with the notable of exception of grenoble (i believe hp has an office there, and sun has or will soon be opening an engineering center).
bon chance!
De acuerdo, tio. Las muchachas de Andalucia son para gustar. :)
If you're thinking about Spain, you're pretty much limited to Barca or Madrid in terms of IT work. There are some opportunities in Sevilla, but you'd probably be travelling to the capital most of the time.
Good thing you left out the traffic on your bicycle on your way to work... at least in NJ.
mcgrof
I would consider Japanese easy, English medium, French medium hard, Latin hard, and Russian Chinese German most difficult languages, correct me if I'm wrong.
Among major languages, the hardest for English speakers are those with complex syntax and/or major conceptual differences from what they're used to.
These include ideographic and/or tonal languages like Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Thai, and Vietnamese. Among these, Japanese is by far the easiest.
Next hardest are those with grammatical structures entirely unlike European languages. Here you'd include Arabic, Hebrew, Finnish, and the various languages used in India. Arabic, for instance, has a tiny number of words compared to English, but each one can have up to dozens of forms with entirely different meanings. The subtlety of the difference makes it quite confusing. It's sort of like trying to recognize people's faces in China if you're used to Western faces (and vice versa - just as hard for Chinese to recognize Western faces).
After that it's pretty much a toss-up. Russian is on the hard side of the remainders. Most of the romance languages are fairly easy, especially Spanish because of its crystal-clear orthography and very regular structure. Almost all of the European languages have large swathes of vocabulary (or at least word roots) in common with English, which makes feeling your way around relatively easy.
The easiest languages for English-speakers to learn would be Dutch, which is grammatically and lexographically very similar (the closest living language to English) and Bahasa (Indonesia/Malaysia) which is just a remarkably straightforward language.
But in any case, almost any decent-paying IT job worldwide will be in an office full of English-speakers of varying ability.
"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
If you want the European feel and another language than english you can always come to Montreal. You wont have to learn french but you will hear it around you. Plus the IT business is booming here.
Maybe you should consider the Netherlands. Its a great little country and since europe ain't that big you can easy go on your holiday's to france,uk,italy etc. Everybody here in the netherlands speaks dutch wich makes first-contact with people a whole lot easier. And people are generally pro-Gore over here (about 90%) so be carefull if you're Republican :)
Rennes is a dynamic city especially in the telecommunications sector. And it is only 30 minutes from the sea, 90 minutes from the ocean, and 2 hours from downtown Paris (high speed train). All the details on job opportunities there can be found on the following Web site (in English ;):
http://www.rennestelecom.com/.
Hope this might help.
I am in a similar position, looking for a programming position in france. I am probably not as experienced as you are, but I speak french fluently. Frankly, my best bet at this point is to marry a french person, fast! The biggest problem is obtaining a visa. In order to stay in France for more than 3 months for whatever your reason, you need a visa. Some examples of visas are student visas and work visas. To get a work visa, the company in France where you plan on working has to sponsor you. You must present an offer of employment to the French consulate. Generally speaking, The French don't hire many Americans. Why would they hire an American, when they can hire a French person? France has a very high unemployment rate, and I think the government blames foreigners for taking away jobs. This is just my opinion, based on what I observed while living there mostly with regard to Algerians. Of course there are exceptions, and it's not impossible. But, they seem particularly nationalistic. My understanding -- from going through the same process -- is that yes, the French need skilled IT workers. But in order for you to get hired by a French company, you must somehow prove that you are INVALUABLE to them. It's just such a time consuming expense for them to go through the process of sposoring you, that very few people end up being "worth it." How is marriage sounding at this point??!!
I'm a french guy... and I left my country, despite I love France
I'm working now in Switzerland and I went there for at least two reasons:
1. Taxes are lower here than in France
2. Despite prices are two times higher, you may get paid 4 times more...
Provided you come to "Suisse romande" everybody speak french (if you want to learn french it's ok) and at least in the IT community quite everyone speak english (there is about 23% of foreigners in switzerland).
There is a LOT of job opportunities here...
concerning work permit, any IT company can get you a 1 year permit (B permit) in 4 to 6 weeks
IT companies do provide stock options and taxes come when you receive them, not when you realize them (like in France, and this makes a BIG difference)
It's a healthy country, more than France and certainly much more than Paris. There's a wonderfull landscape but you will have to stand living in the Alpes, and having cold winters.
However, you will be able to ski almost all the year long, while having a good swim in lakes during summer.
I worked with two US guys that came to my company directly from the states, and now they left...
They did not adapt to the living standards, it seems this is the main challenge for an american guy who comes to Europe
I heard the market in Japan is pretty good. Had somebody leave for there not too long ago.
Bah.... Do you think that Jay Leno doesn't set that up in some way ? How funny would it be if people gave the right answers ? If you think that TV paints an accurate picture, you need to spend less time in front of the TV and more time in reality.
Actually I was pondering the possibilities of doing this as well, however I have a family and I doubt that I could bring them all over with me let alone get myself over to Europe for just being a network manager/engineer.
My wife likes the UK and I even thought about Greece since my mother came from there and this might get me a visa of some sort by inherited citizenship or some such. (though just about anywhere would be interesting to me for relocation my wife is a bit picky I suppose. Asia, Europe, Australia, all sound fun to me!)
Oh well, anyone have any info they might wish to impart? It would be appriciated, thanks!
"When people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called 'the People's Stick'." -Bakunin
There should be a moderation option "+2: Profound" for posts like this one.
Mod him up mercilessly.
NO LANGUAGE PROBLEM AT ALL! When you don't want/can learn French in time just come to Belgium. Most high level companies use English as the standard language for documents and meetings. In france you won't be able to keep serious: the accent is awfully comic. Belgium has an even better taste in food: French quality (even better) combined with German quantity (very useful for Americans!) BTW: Brussels (belgiums Capital) is less than 2h drive from Paris... One place you can get a job is Steria
120 chars is not enough!
I'd have to agree... The number of idiots the schools are churning out are alarming. Can't even find their home city or state on a US map. Usually can't find Canada on a world map. Jay Leno does some sort of Ask the Idiot on the street once in a while. People find it funny. I find it sad that 20-30 year olds think Mexico is a state. Ask the average slashdot user -- the 16 year-old. They'll tell you their class is an idiot garden.
Your generalizations of the American technology worker is inaccurate, and I would suggest has a hint of jealousy. Your point of the importance of the America technology worker in respect to the development of computer technology in its infancy is dead on. We only need to look to the men of IBM, Steve Job's, and (sorry unavoidable) Bill Gates to see this. But talented men of technology in the US don't stop there. Men, or even very young men from the US as in the case with the Napster creator are continuing to produce innovative software and hardware that not only keeps the US on its toes, but the world as well. Therefore, it's not a question of whether US technology worker is needed, but rather where him/her can be of service.
Well, I'm French and I've been worked in US so I see the both sides... Et bien vous êtes la bienvenue, le marché de la nouvelle économie manque grandement de bras, et vous n'aurez pas trop de problème à avoir le visa si vous avez une entreprise qui vous patronne. Contrairement à ce que l'on dit les français sont assez accueillant mais d'une manière différente des américains, nous sommes plus réservé. Quand à la langue, si vous faites preuve de bonne volonté et n'imposait pas l'usage de l'anglais à tous ça passera bien, je recommende les plus petites villes genre Nancy pour un emploi sous Linux, vous pouvez allez jeter un coup d'oeil sur http://www.lolix.org. Well, you are welcome, the IT market is in a huge need of good people, and you won't have any trouble getting a visa if an enterprise sponsors you. We are welcoming but in a different manner than US people are, maybe we are shier. But if you behave correctly, you struggle to learn french and not imposing people to speak english you won't get any problem. I think France is neat, so go ahead. You can have a look to http://www.lolix.org where you could find Linux jobs in France or I also recommend you IDEALX http://www.idealx.fr, if you are good, there is work ! Anyway I'm still open to any question on France :o)
That sounds good, thank you I love the way you show the tolerance you have to French men. I'm French, why on earth do you insult us ? There is good things in US that don't exist in France but the contrary is also true, there is good things in France that don't exist in US. When you don't understand a kind of art don't insult it, and btw nowadays the art is more worldwide than in France... There is americans who are doing the same bullshit... Do you remember who is Lafayette... a French who helped US to be independant... fighting with americans against Englishmen... But do you know history ? Well let's try to be tolerant next time, europeans are nor inferior neither superior to americans. We are different, accept that.
How can you say that ? I do not see why, well each system has its pros and its cons, you can't say the contrary most of the people in Europe speak a foreign language, the average people don't in USA... Being called Frog, I don't like that, this is racist... and I'm insulting you as you do...
Thank you... That sounds so great, I'm French I like to be called Frog, that's neat... Could you be more tolerant, please ? I'm sorry about that, but there's a fact Americans are the people who speak the less foreign languages since you don't have to. In France you have at least to learn 2 foreign languages...
Last I heard, (a while ago) your going to get a 70k break before you pay into taxes while overseas. So you just get taxed over that amount. Asia is wide open as to tech folk. Often you will also get per diem which is not taxed. A friend was working as a install engineer (Read: floppy disk changing monkey) living in poverty at four star hotels with full room and board and forty bucks US. to spend on drinks every night. With a scandalous exchange rate of 1 USD to 30 of the local currency. Poor guy couldn't keep up even when he bought drinks for the house. Also having a weight problem is only a problem in the US. Elsewhere in the world (Asia and Europe)Fat Guys are Rich Guys and Your exotic to the locals. (HINT Sumo Wrestlers are like rock stars in Japan)
"When I am in charge, every mission is a suicide mission" - Captain Zapp Brannigan
I think the best way to work abroad is to become involved in an international company that has centers here in the US but is based in Europe. Most of these regularly send their good employees abroad, and the more advanced in the company you become, the greater your opportunity for working abroad. Because not many people are willing to pull up all their roots and move to another country, the opportunities are readily available, especially if you're good at what you do. They even offer language training as a part of your job, so you wouldn't have to take time off work to become more fluent before you move. I suggest checking out Michelin or Schneider Telemechanique if you want to work in France.
Live free or die
I speak japanese just fine, and I'd love to get a job there in IT. I'd really like it. What exactly did you do, and can you tell me more? thanks
Any American IT women interested in finding a job in Europe?
Yes?
Lets trade!!!
I'm interested in finding one in USA.
Lets get married, and within a year we will both be able to work abroad without any Visa hassle.
Remember..
Its a great deal..
I trade 12 countries for 1.
-huph
I'm actually just finishing up a contracting job here in Dublin. It is true that you can get citizenship if you have a grandparent that was born here but I've heard that it takes a while to get and you have to provide documentation (possibly birth certificates, etc. this is also just hearsay). It really wasn't hard to get a job here it just took a little longer than expected. Once I got a bite on my resume though it went fast. The companies here seem to hire a lot of people for contract jobs. The contracting company paid for my 1 year visa (I don't know what it cost them). The deal is that you can work here for 183 days without having to pay any Irish tax at all. I haven't gone through the US tax thing yet but I understand that you have to stay out of the US for a full tax year before you don't have to pay any US taxes (up to 70,000). There are (legal) ways around paying the max 44% Irish tax rate. There are accounting companies here that make you an employee of an offshore company and you only pay tax on the money you bring into Ireland to live on. The people who do that pay the lowest tax rate which is like 17% only on the money they bring in. I hope this helps. I have to run out and get a Guinness. Cheers.
Language should not be a huge problem, at least not for the job. I work for a company, spreaded all over europe and it's official language is english. Even though it's HQ and most of the offices are in France.
I have about one year experience. I was asked by a company if I would be interested to move to Paris to do some web scripting. I was wondering how much should I ask for? Since Paris is so expensive I just need to know how much would it take to live "comforable". I know its a subjective question but a range would be nice. Thanks
The main places are Paris, Toulouse (better weather) and Grenoble (Les Alpes). You can find a job in a "societe de service" such as ATRAN, ATLEN ... as long as your french is good enough to pass the interview.
However most of the jobs are around Paris witch is a crowded city an the tax level is the main reason why I decided to leave France for California.
I recently worked 2 1/2 years in England and Holland. You have several options for going to Europe. I list them in order of preference (easy & money): 1. Get a U.S. employer to send you there. They should take care of the visa's and you might get a good relo package 2. Go as a contractor. Set up your own company in the U.S. Since you are being sent over by a U.S. employer (you!), you can make your own relo package, e.g. get a per diem, get a living allowance (tax-free). Free-lance rates are a lot more attractive than permanent salaries. 3. Get a permit and find a job. Most difficult, least money. Holland has a 35% rule. If you are a foreign computer programmer, you get back 35% of your taxes paid, e.g. their highest rate is 60%, which with the 35% rule is reduced to 39%. Above all, have fun, learn the language, enjoy the food, travel and don't believe Europeans if they tell you something is far away. Sometimes it seemed that driving for more than 2 hours to get somewhere is a major undertaking for Europeans. Mark
What I did was start a small company. And then asked for a resident permit. Before I started my company I had asked for a resident permit. And because I had no job they said that I had no reason to stay in Austria. Then I asked a second time, after starting my company, and they said yes. I have been working as a contractor for several different companies that I found out about in the news groups.
Just 2 months ago I finally got working papers under a special program to bring more It people to Austria. But I will not give up my company. If you have a job and loose it, You can be asked to leave the country. Running a company you could create jobs..
If you dont have an Income(job/company) you cant get a VISA.
That said, I have just returned from 2 weeks in Boston MA and my feeling is that the cost of living between MA/USA and Victoria/AUS (where I am) are pretty much the same dollar-for-dollar. So, it will cost say US$100 to feed yourself in Boston and AU$100 to feed yourself in AUS (roughly). If you want the same salary to live the same life[style], no probs, but if you have to pay off US$ debts, worry.
FYI, Sydney pays best but the cost of living, especially rent, is much higher. Melbourne pays second best, and is probably the best compromise, unless you want somewhere _always_ warm [Melbourne is warm in Summer but cool-to-cold in winter].
If you are seriously considering moving over, feel free to e-mail me with any questions.
PS. You need to brush up on your English before you come :-) :-) :-) ["duel" -> "dual"]
-------------------------------------------------
klaatu barada nikto
To get work in Ireland, you need to come here with a return ticket. You can stay for 3 months with no visa - this is plenty of time as it takes about a week to get several offers if you have any qualifications or experience at all. It is your employer's responsibility to get you a work permit (a trival exercise for them). The only drawback is that salaries are not anywhere near the standard found in the Silicon Valley (about half). The good news is that the pubs are great and the social environment at work is far better than anything I experienced in the US.
Many Irish companies and US companies with a presence here are even willing to interview over the phone or hire directly from the US. My company is currently sending people all over the world to find prospective Java programmers due to the tight labor market here.
Back to the topic - yes, the language barrier can be a problem, and so can the tax barrier and cultural barriers. Note that as a foreigner working for a non-foreign company, you will be expected to pay taxes in the country where you work. European taxes are generally 1.5-2 times higher, and sales tax generally around 20-25%. As a foreigner, you may not be able to reap the benefits of said taxes, and may still have to pay for services that the native population get for free. It may not be a lucrative prospect.
As for language and culture, there's more of a difference between countries than what a tourist may see. I myself have moved the other way, from Europe to the US, and even though I speak the language well enough, the culture shock is still very much in effect after 1 1/2 years. I imagine it will be likewise hard to adapt when moving to Europe or other parts of the world from the US.
But it can be very rewarding too, and yes, the demand for a technical workforce is high in Europe. But just because something is in demand, doesn't necessarily mean that it's well-paid, like in the US. Salaries tend to be controlled, both by governments and unions, and it's doubtful that you would benefit from this economically. The rewards will be cultural, and in expanding your experience and opportunities.
Good luck to anyone moving either way.
Technical schools or higher level engineering shcools that go far beyond what a US college may teach will not be recognized. You may have 18 years of schooling and still not be recognized in the US - your 18 years may not even include high school.
As for nation of origin, yes the INS do use quota systems for H-class visas too, although this is supposed to be a secondary consideration.
Finally, the US work visas are temporary, and can normally not be turned into a permanent residency. This may restrict the opportunity people have to use them, as they will need to ensure that they have means to live and work in the country of origin once the work visum expires. (Incidentally, this is one of the things that may change, as there's discussions on opening for more permanent work visas.)
(posting AC so I don't get deported).
Well, I figure I should respond, since I moved from the USA to Paris three months ago today.
I got a job offer from a multinational French startup company who didn't seem to mind that I don't speak a word of French. They were going to get me a visa and everything. The only problem is that software engineers get paid dismally in France compared to the US (I would have had to take a 40% pay cut).
So I told my current company: "OK, I have a job offer in France. I'd rather stay with you, though. Wanna let me work from France?" And, to my astonishment, they said OK. So I found an apartment online, set up DSL, and moved over. Frankly, it was a lot easier than I thought it would be. I didn't bother with a visa: I get paid into my bank account in dollars, and just withdraw money from ATMs. Of course, I might get busted, but what does it mean to really be "working in France". I just avoid getting in trouble with the police.
Of course, I got extraordinarily lucky with how smoothly everything went. But you might want to check with your current employer to see if they value you enough to do this (hint: I've found in that past that "Can I move to France?" type questions guarantee a "NO", but "I am moving to France. Want to keep me as an employee?" questions often have a decent chance).
If I'd learnt one thing from travelling, it was that the way to get things done was to go ahead and do them. Don't talk about going to Borneo. Book a ticket, get a visa, pack a bag, and it just happens. -The Beach, Alex Garland
Hi - Im an Australian working in Switzerland, most of my IT friends are from all places of the world. France may not be so easy - suggest French part of Switzerland, as they have far too much money. (more jobs, better rates, more likely to take English speakers) Most other countries in Europe have special entry visas for IT people (eg Germany, Holland, Ireland etc etc), so its all really quite easy. (and in the case of Holland, IT people have special low tax rates so you make even more money etc) Suggest you only really look into it if you're serious, the Embassies of these countries really don't need timewasters... (In the nicest possible way - Im writing that because lots of other people may be reading this!) Good luck and enjoy!
I've got two thirds of a Uni degree, but, when I first came to the UK, 2 years industry experience.
Had a job within 24 hours of first sending out my CV. That was a few years back.
I did have the advantage of having a valid work visa (due to ancestry). Plenty of places will go through the process of sponsoring you to get in to the country. The larger companies do it as a matter of course.
There's such a shortage of people over here that most places aren't too bothered about education - it's more about what you can do now. Also keep in mind a lot of places completely over-spec their requirements.
...j
I know where you're coming from--I hate days like that.
;-)
-Paul Komarek
Getting a work permits can be a problem, but I'll assume you can deal with that.
The French have earned a reputation of being snotty to americans. This is partially america, and partially not speaking french. So while waiting for paper work do everything you can to learn their language.
That said, you will just have to learn to deal with it. There are bigiots in the US that are just as bad as those in France. Depending on what you have going against you (and everyone as something that someone will find fault with. Even though I'm a white male living in the US, there are people who don't like me based on that. Not many, but I have come across one) Deal with it, avoid them if you can, be polite otherwise. Treat them as they should treat you not as they do.
I have never been to France, but several friends have. They report a large number of nice people there. They report loving it, and all would seriously consider moving there. (they also love their home though, so it would be hard) There are also plenty of people there who don't like them.
In other words, the people are like people anywhere else in the world. Some are nice, some are not. Some will give you the shirt off their back, some are dowwright dirty rotten crooks. If you can't deal with anyone who didn't belong to your frat/click/team/religion/ethnics, then stay where you are. If you can't deal with those who hate you for what you are (not WHO) then stay home.
I say go for it. Don't give up your citicianship until you are sure you want to live there forever. However it is well worth your while to live in other countries. You will love it, and remember it forever.
The view of a place you get by living there is so different than that which you get as a tourist.
It is my understanding that gettting a VISA to an EU country is not that hard. I never had to do it I'm a citizen of the UK.
The Cure of the ills of Democracy is more Democracy.
Erlang Developer and podcaster
Well, regardless of the astonishing shittiness of the website, Sophia Antipolis is at the top of the French list. It even manages to be mentioned on the European TOP-80 list, along with about two other French sites, and this says quite a lot about how far behind the French are in the technology field.
If I was moving from the US to Europe, and looking for a hi-tech job, I would probably not choose France. Scandinavia, the Netherlands and even Germany are much better options.
--Bud
The French version of Silicon Valley is called Sophia Antipolis.
--Bud
"Since you are not a citizen, you will find that you are unable to access many of the services you are paying for."
;)
And this is also apply to the H1's going to the US?
Yes, BUNAC is good. My girlfriend came over to England on the Canadian partner program, SWAP. She could have extended her visa for up to 2 years. Medical coverage came easily for her too... the NHS doll things out without checks! I went on a BUNAC student working holiday to Canada after I graduated. That was 5 years ago and I'm floating around N. America (legally too).
Funny post....
I'd have to say based on my experience with British autos and by their reputation, that the British autos are the worst built in the industrialized world. I believe even the (South) Koreans and Americans make better cars!
Sure they were easy to work on, but that was because there was nothing to them at all, one of my cars had cracked its engine block - on an unmodified car under light use!
Then you have the Jags which were "sporty" at best and had handling equivalent to a balistic missile sub and had a crappy service record before Ford cleaned house. I haven't heard much about the post-Ford Jags, if it's because there aren't any, it's definitely an improvement.
Ok, I'm a european in the US now, and the reason why I'm working for free (well it's called research and it's perfectly legal, but it's still unpaid work) is that the US also has very strict regulations about employment of non-residents.
:)
Besides, if you speak fluent german, why would you have a hard time ? Maybe you only speak fluent german in america (hint hint) ?
Going to another country is an experience. Some people go abroad and bitch about how everything is not quite like at home. And some of us accept (and maybe even enjoy) that things are different, and that you get the opportunity to vastly improve that foreign language of yours. I know that I have. And I may not like every bit about the states, but I'm enjoying my time here. Try not being so damn ignorant, then things may just lighten up and even look bright to you
The Shelby Cobra, McLaren F1, MG BGT, Triumph Stag, and Jaguar XK-120, each a bona-fide classic, were all built in Britain. Land Rover is British and are built like tanks. And then there's the Citroen... the overall suckiness of that car pretty much outweighs everything else, I suppose, so I guess you are right :)
I think there is a world market for maybe five personal web logs.
you'll have to tell them you're moving on months in advance instead of not returning from lunch
Bwahahaha, that's just the law that protects the individual from the company, (They have to pay you 100% for 3 months if they sac you (and even that is extremely difficult for any company))
In reality you hand them you letter of resignation and tell them when you are leaving. And, yes, it can be "tomorrow". We have this thing here in europe called the "human rights", ands it states that you can't force anybody to work. Everybody knows this so they let you go when you want instead of having to pay you 3 months for doing absolutely nothing..
--
Why pay for drugs when you can get Linux for free ?
echo '[q]sa[ln0=aln80~Psnlbx]16isb572CCB9AE9DB03273snlbxq' |dc
In september 1997 I landed in Paris, without a job, with no knowledge of the French language, and with a promise for an "appartment" for just 3 months.
The French were just beginning to grasp this Internet thing by then. This "Overgrown American version of 'Minitel'". Oh, my gosh, many things have changed since then. Generally I find this country much nicer and more andvanced (more "serious") than my own, the healtservice is better (*and* cheaper), the food and wine is .. ahh, well you all know .. ;-)
You get 5 weeks in wacation each year. And they have those weird 35 hour work-weeks in *law*, that can mean extra 4 weeks of wacation a year (it does for me ;-)
The only downside is the people is Paris, known in all of France at "Les Parisiens", but that is just 99.99% if them, the 0.01% you will know personally are just fine and a lot of fun to know ;)
My advice is: Just do it !!!
Remember: the worst things to regret are those that you didn's do.
Mail me, and I will find you a job in a week.
--
Why pay for drugs when you can get Linux for free ?
echo '[q]sa[ln0=aln80~Psnlbx]16isb572CCB9AE9DB03273snlbxq' |dc
Well, we need IT people in Germany. We want to have German engineers for open positions but I give you some numbers. I know them very well, because I have 2 semesters to go in my studies and get offers from everywhere. There are approximatly 6000 graduated students in IT each year. There is a need of 30,000 in whole Germany (increasing) each year - Siemens alone would like to get 4000 graduates each year.
There is a special program by the German government for green cards. They are time limited (I think 3-5 years) - but maybe that's exactly what you're looking for: working a couple of years in a foreign country and then coming back home (or work in another country).
The European beggars are like Canadian beggars. University educated! Its not just the hookers who suck. Like they told Bush senior all those years ago: "Its the economy stupid."
If I was you I would not assume that I can just land somewhere and get a job.
Also there are little things like VISAS. If you don't have the proper visa, you may find yourself frog-marched to the border and flipped into a neighboring country or the nearest ocean.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
Got a visa? You cant' work without it anymore than I can work in the states without being sponsored for a Visa.Hey Bozo.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
Yeah, especially Canadians. On some maps of the world here the geographic north pole is located somewhere west of Toronto.
The biggest problem is going to be the language. Unless they go to an English-speaking country, they will have to know the local language well enough to be productive in a business environment. There are a few exceptions from what I hear, like Amsterdam, where a number of businesses use English as the official language and people are sufficiently fluent in English to make you get by.
Another thing I noticed in Europe (at least in Germany) is ageism, or age discrimination. I've seen a lot of job offers with maximum ages listed, something that would be highly illegal in the US (even if it can be and is accomplished through other means).
Apparently you're just a bunch of yaks. Or maybe even vegans.
pooptruck
Which services wouldn't he be able to use?
Besides, "excessive" is hardly an objective word. Maybe he'll find France's tax rate just fine. Or maybe he has other concerns in life than maximizing take home pay...especially if he's only planning on working abroad for a few years.
Keep in mind that the UK is much easier for you to enter because you are Canadian, and hence, part of the British Commonwealth. The US is not. This has many ramifications with regards to immigration into the UK & Other British territories.
And I have always longed to find a way back there as a Java Software Engineer. Preferably a way with my current American Salary. Has anyone else successfully achieved this? It has always been my hope that someday I could bring my American expertise to a new venue and perhaps build websites or applications there for use around the world. But Australia would definately be a preferred work environment for me.
-Ben
So, Australia, at the least, is doing the same back to the US. Other country's citizens will have no problem getting a working visa. If you're American, you will simply not get a working visa, period, without company sponsorship.
Open Source. Closed Minds. We are Slashdot.
You should read http://www.britain-in-canada.org. It isn't that easy. If you have a father born in the UK, you are entitiled to citizenship. If you have a grandparent born in the UK and you are a commonwealth citizen, you are entitled to a "right of abode" which allows you to work there. If you are more than third generation Canadian, too bad for you.
Please remember that the 820$ figure I quoted is -net-, and yes, these are the salaries a *good* worker, with a MS from a *good* university gets.
A lot of other friends of mine, who took arts degrees etc., are not so lucky, and they have to choose between staying at home or working 'in black' (i.e. not officially working, paid in cash and with no job security) something like 500$/month.
The more south you go in Italy, the worse it is regarding unemployment, in the North at least, if you don't mind doing menial jobs, you should be able to find something to do, but in the South, with like 20% unemployment rate, it would be really hard.
How do people survive on those salaries ? They live with their parents, and depend on them to give some money every now and then. To start a family, both the man and the woman *must* be working, they probably will have to work 5-6 years before even starting to *think* to have kids, and after that they will always have to be really careful.
Italy is the type of country where unless you win a lottery or something, you will die in the same social class you were born in, if your parents, like mine, were a blue collar worker and a homemaker, odds are you'll end up always renting an apartment your whole life, and never having enough money to enjoy things a little bit.
Here in Canada at least I have a chance of improving my social standing, and to be able to offer my future children a safer future than if I remained in Italy.
-- the cake is a lie
Sorry about this: I was forgetting just how much the US$ has gone up in the recent past when I quoted salary figures and stuff.
My friends are making about 820$/mo
Mega dump apartment cost is about 300$/mo
Heating is about 80$/mo
Phone is 25-200$ where 25$ means 'almost no usage'
everything else is correct (I already corrected it, but I forgot the above). Note that the US$ in respect to the Italian lira (ITL) has gone up from about 1500lira = 1$ to 2200 lira = 1$ in a year or so due to the Euro going down the drain.
-- the cake is a lie
Canada has great rich neighbours to mooch off of. :)
I've been living and working in Europe for almost three years now, so I've got a bit of an opinion on the issue. The simple answer is: you can find work in IT no matter where in Europe you go. Germany has recently made a lot of "green cards" available for hi-tech workers from Eastern Europe due to a general lack of workers. It's generally true that there is a shortage of workers everywhere.
However, moving overseas and getting set up is not an easy task. Taxes (especially VAT's) are IMHO higher in Europe than in the US, housing can be difficult to find. If you don't speak the language, it limits the places where you can work. The best advice I can give you is to get as much of the paperwork as possible done before you fly over. Also, be sure to take a certified copy of your birth certificate with you - if you lose your passport you may need it, and many foreign offices require it for various permits.
---
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"Go Metallica. Die RIAA." -- Linus Torvalds
AFAIK as long as you're a US citizen, you have to pay US taxes on ALL your overseas/worlwide income, not just that in excess of $75K. You will, however, I believe, get a tax credit for any tax paid another country (i.e. you won't be double taxed).
I've known enough 'Merkins who have done this, and there are two ways of going about it, the hard way and the not-so-hard-way. There isn't an easy way :-)
:-)
Most of this advice deals with France, but some of it applies to Italy as well. It also applies to benelux, germany, ireland and the nordic countries, but all bets are off for the UK and Switzerland, who have truly twisted requirements.
Many of the posts lower down tell you about the impossibility of obtaining forms once you are in the country, and other "official" ways of legally working in france. This is the very hard way of doing things. If you read some of the sanctioned books like "How to live and work in France", they rattle on about doing things so as not to piss of the officials, and they repeat many of the bogus claims made by minor bureaucrats for all the forms they require. Read those books for all the interesting tidbits which might be helpful, then ignore most of their bloat-advice.
Let me recount some of my adventures in French bureaucracy. I've had minor functionaries give me large lists of documents to be produced before they will allow me to have a stamp of approval, or the required document. I figured out which ones were really relevant, and produced those a few days later. Voila! The petty funcs had forgotten their ridiculous list, and proceeded to give me what I needed. Knowing how to navigate the bureaucracy is an art form, and it will take you some time to learn it. It is a skill which will serve you well for the rest of your life, no matter where you end up living.
As for the "legal" advice of not searching for work before getting a work permit and visa, that is a catch-22 situation. France is full of shit like that, learn to ignore one side of it in order to proceed. There is nothing to really prevent you from taking a 3 month vacation to Paris and Rome just to see the sites. The sites you just happen to want to see are the insides of hiring managers offices, rather than museums and stupid old towers.
So count on at least one trip back home, possibly two. Consider them vacations. Schedule them for around Christmas or other holidays. Allow for some time to deal with notoriously slow consulates. These trips will allow you to bring home lots of souvenirs for your friends and family, and return with lots of stuff you need for your apartment and life in general.
The first things you want to do on your first trip is secure accommodation, a place where you can receive mail for at least 6 months. Renting a room from sympathetic roomies is your best bet (email me). You wont be able to rent an apartment on your own until you have a job and a bank account. Get your name on the mailbox, so the mail can come straight to you. This should also give you a phone number where you can be reached.
[I'll put in here you need a local bank account soon after you get an address. Ask other ex-pats where they bank, and find a friendly account manager. You will have to provide details of some other bank account in your name (to prevent money laundering), plus proof of your local address and phone number. This is where your salary will go. They shouldn't need a local social security number, not at this point]
Once you have a permanent address, you can start testing the job market (its getting better and better, go play on www.jobserve.com). Forget the advice to mail out CVs to hundreds of companies, start by targeting some interesting sounding, but ultimately throw-away, jobs for practice. Go to a few interviews just to see what kind of questions you get asked, make notes afterwards. Rework your CV until it looks very european.
When you do start interviewing for the jobs you want, be "honest" with the managers. Let them know you will be moving permanently in about 3 to 5 months, and can't start work before then. To americans, this sounds bad, but it is standard practice in Europe to have 3-12 months between a final interview and the start of work. I've been in one interview where they wanted someone to start in no less than 6 months, and no longer than 18 months out. Let the company know you will need their signature on some work permit documents, and you will provide them once you have a work contract. Most clued-in computer companies will understand, and be so desperate for someone with american experience they will help you out. Officially they can't give you a contract until you produce a visa and work permit, but you can't get those until you have a contract. Get the contract, even if they give you an addendum cancelling the contract right away. And get your salary figures in an addendum as well, otherwise the contract will be forwarded to the tax people. Dont show addendums, just the main contract.
Once you have a contract in hand, then go out and collect as many forms as you can to get yourself a social security number, a residency permit, health card, and anything else you can find. If your ex-pat friends can't show you everything they've filled out, spend some money to talk to an immigration lawyer (approx USD$200/hour) for advice on which forms to obtain and where and how to get them. In France and Italy, many forms can only be obtained after resolving an unbeatable catch-22 situation, but a lawyer acting on your behalf tends to cower insignificant bureaucrats.
Now is the time to go back to the states and approach the consulate once again. Just go in and ask for the forms, dont bother to explain too much in detail how you happened to get the contract, even if they ask. Since you are physically outside of France or Italy, they should take your word for doing things the legal way and hand you the forms. Have some fun with your friends and family, show around photos, and start to pack up what you really want to take to europe.
Once you get your work visa stamp in your passport, head back to europe and restart the paperwork process. Be tenaceous, in France it can take you weeks and weeks to get a few things done correctly. Allow for slow idiots taking longer than you though possible. Eventually it will all come together.
When you get through this process, you will have:
- a work visa in your passport
- a residency card with work permit option
- a taxpayer ID number
- a social security number for health care and retirement
- a health care card
- a permanent address
- a bank account for your salary to be deposited
- a checkbook and credit/debit card tied to the account
- eventually you will get an apartment in your own name, with phone/electricity/gas/water/taxes in your name as well.
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As for learning french, if you want to live in Paris it will be necessary to have fluent french, about 6 months of intensive lessons and some time in france forcing yourself to speak only french and listening to the Parisiennes before you can tackle the administration.
For Italy, about the same thing holds true, but the bureaucrats tend to be a little more forgiving to foreigners and might actually try out their limited inglesi on you.
I highly recommend pillow lessons. You tend to concentrate more
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In Italy, many people work in the black, dodging taxes is the national pasttime. Especially contractors, especially english speaking contractors, and extra-especially computer contractors. The problem is so bad there is a special "tax police" to combat the problem. I know a lot of english speaking ex-pats with funny stories of working in the black, getting paid either in cash or into UK or Irish bank accounts. I've heard several similar stories of being raided by the tax police, who surround the buildings and then run around inside the building checking everyones tax numbers and status. The illegals all grab any identifying stuff from their desks, and jump out windows or form up into a rugby-style scrum for a charge out the back door. When there are hundreds of people running from a building in a large group, a few dozen carbinieri can only arrest a few of them, the rest get away to meet in local bars until the raid is over.
If your italian is up to the effort, and you don't mind being a clandestino, you could probably have a nice life in one of the big cities in Italy, never pay taxes, earn 30%-70% of your american income, and never bother with bureaucracy. Many employers tend to abuse "black" workers, and every contractor I know has at least one horror story of not getting paid, and being unable to fight back in court, so be wary. Its only if you want to get married or buy a house or do something major with your money that you will have to become legit. But for two or three years, it could be a blast.
At some point in your life you will be audited for taxes, either by the americans, or some government in europe. At that point, you will have to show you have paid taxes, or at least filed proper tax returns, for every year of your existence. If you just ignore taxes for a couple of years, it looks bad and someone will want you to pay based on your income levels on either side of the gap. It is better to declare you are "writing a book" or some other such nonsense, than to leave a gap in your taxes.
the AC, independent in Europe and loving it
Hemos is like...sci-fi fans;he thinks technology is cool, but he hasn't bothered to understand the science it's based on
I highly recommend the book entitled, The Professor and The Madman: A Tale of Murder, Insanity, and The Oxford English Dictionary. Dr. Minor was truly wacko, and it makes fascinating reading.
Also don't forget that J.R.R. Tolkien was one of those who worked in the Scriptorium, editing the Mother Of All Dictionaries together. (No, Tolkien is not the Professor referred to in the title.)
You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
European men are much more romantic
Wah!
In the interest of pseudononymity I've removed the email & web addresses, though if you want them you may contact me privately.
I visited Amsterdam a year or so ago and saw a lot of places (e.g. Manpower) posting job listings for tech work. The thing is, the listing would be in the language of the job (i.e. Dutch) and a whole lot of them (way over half) were in English, implying to me that an [North] American would probably be okay finding work there.
My friend in Paris makes it sound like a great place to live for a few years -- if my girlfriend could come with me without endangering her US citizenship application, I'd be over there myself right now. I say you should go for it...
DO NOT LEAVE IT IS NOT REAL
If you want to move in permanently you should try finding a job on-line at a dutch company. Many dutch companies are desperate for skilled IT workers so they try and attract workers via every channel possible. And when they hire you they'll probably help you get set up here (I'm dutch)
This probably works for most european countries. Duthc immigration laws are pretty restrictive so that can be a problem, but if you've got a job at a dutch company, again, that is much easier.
Be prepared for a slight culture shock though. Oh, and pick up the briliantly funny book "the undutchables" (isbn 0962500631) describes us wonderfully.
First, European countries have strict regulations against employment of foreigners (i.e. non European Union citizens). I was only allowed to work 20 hours. Apparently, there were other problems as well, since I never actually got around to working.
Second, don't kid yourself into thinking you'll pick up the language. I speak almost fluent German, but even I had a hard time. My German hardly improved the time I was there. It's one thing to be able to hold conversations with people when you're a tourist, but you know nothing about what it's like to actually live in the country. Do you know how to hook up phone service? Did you know you need to pay a license to watch TV? What about car insurance? Or going to the doctor? If you don't bring your significant other with you, will you be able to have a meaningful conversation with someone you meet there?
--
And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
One possible way around this is to work for a contractor who provides services to the U.S. military as a tech worker in Germany.
If you qualify (and this is getting more difficult) as a technical expert, your pay is not taxed by the German government and in addition, your first $75K is free from U.S. income taxes as well. The only catch is that your employment must be temporary and that you must not be "ordinarily resident". There are a number of firms who have workers there under this status including Mitre, Logicon, and others.
Its a well kept secret but you can qualify.
I'm not sure, but I think only citizens of CERN member states can be CERN staff members, and the U.S. is not a member state, but many american universities participate in CERN experiments and so you can go as a staff member of an american university - I did, as an undergraduate student, I did my senior thesis work at UC Santa Cruz at CERN this way.
Physicists have some strange ideas about what constitutes good software practice though. I try to politely correct this in this paper which I wrote for my experiment at CERN, proposing we scrap our FORTRAN codebase and rewrite it in C++.
Geneva's a little expensive to live in but if you work at CERN you can live in either france or Switzerland. (The particles have to show their passports twice each time around the accellerator ring as it crosses the border). I lived in France and found it very affordable.
Michael D. Crawford
GoingWare Inc
-- Could you use my software consulting serv
Well...my first language is Chinese, (English as a close second ;) So I guess that helps. I am learning both (a few years with Japanese already) and find that Latin is the most inflected language I've ever seen...you'll spend more time memorizing words than making sentences. That's why I consider it hard.
Ciao, amico mio.
:) )
(I warned you my Italian was never good and has gone rsuty over the years. As I used to say in Italiano: "Posso parlare un poco Italiano ma vocabulario mio e limitato, e grammario mio e multo male.
When I graduated, I made a list of 30 companies doing things I was interested in and sent them resumes. I ended up being hired b yan Italian firm in Milano and spent the enxt year there.
:) )
I didn't worry about the visa, and my advice is not to. If the company wants you then they are in a much better position to help you get one or at least tell you how to go about it yourself.
In re language, in Italy all the computers and computer scientists speak english pretty well. The same may not be true in France. I went over having had 3 semesters of Latin but not Italian. if you cna deal with feeling like an idiot-savant for awhile while you pick it up, IMO the best and easiest way to learn a language is by immersion.
It took me abotu 3 months to learn enough street Italian to get by. Til then, i was very creative, and relied on things like pictures on cans at the market (which led to some very amusing stories I can still tell
Throwing yourself out of your familiar environment and cutting yourself off from your support network is definately an adventure and not for the weak of heart, but I wouldn't trade the experience for anything. It made me a far stronger and more capable person.
You will find that, at elast in Italy, european and american CS educatiosn are fairly different. Italian computer scientists, in my expereince, were mroe theoretical. Their theory background will amaze you. on tyhe fli pside, they have less practical knowledge and experience with how to put a system together and make it work. Americans tend to have more actual project experience and be faster coders.
Are we talking about the same island nation? Kinda' long? Cool mountains?
:-P). The proprietor of the shop came at me with a meat cleaver. For a moment I thought I was back in Diablo, about to take on The Butcher and me without so much as a sausage for defense! Literally, all I had done was walk in off the street because something had caught my eye. Luckily, my cat like Ninja reflexes saved my bacon as I deftly performed the ancient "Turn My Narrow Ass Around And RUN" technique.
In nearly every village I've seen (and even in the big cities), a large portion of the shops and restaurants had VERY prominently displayed and obvious signs stating that gaijin (foreigners) were not welcome.
I noticed this after being nearly beheaded while trying to purchase a some gifts (OK, so I didn't read the "prominently" displayed sign
But seriously, there is a growing anti-foreigner sentiment in Japan, thanks in part to Russian/American/etc. organized crime and decidedly thanks to American military behaving like baboons. While in business circles you will be treated VERY well, you will find that left on your own you run the risk of serious verbal and physical abuse.
Ceci n'est pas une sig.
Wow, this could be a second post! I'm so thrilled!!!! (HAH!)
:-)
Seriously, make sure you can get a visa first. It's not that easy for someone who isn't an EU member, and Americans applying for jobs tend to be viewed with serious suspicion by governments.
Also, you should bone up on your french _now_, not once you get over there. I wouldn't bother hiring anyone who couldn't speak the local language at least passably. (mind you, that means I've had some colleagues in the past who I wouldn't hire
No idea of the job market over there, other than that the UK is booming like it hasn't in 30 years.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
I think you are being a bit too biased trashing France like that. Reprocessing nuclear fuel has the advantage of minimizing nuclear waste dramatically. In a Uranium reactor, only a small fraction of the fissionable U-235 is used (less than 4%), while more fuel is produced under the form of Plutonium-239 (cfr breeder reactors). This Plutonium can be extracted and used as fuel again. This is done in Europe and Japan and Russia. The United States policy is to use a once-through fuel cycle. Once they have used the fuel the first time around, they throw it away. This is A LOT of nuclear waste, including perfectly good usable fuel. Also, the disadvantage of the once-through cycle is that at these rates, all of the U-235 fuel will be used up in about 50 years so we will no longer be able to start up a reactor. So the leader in sheer volume of waste (per unit power generated) is the United States. However, preprocessing plants have to separate highly radioactive byproducts, so these plants need to be very well designed. The French have the best reprocessing plants, much more advanced than any US plants. So don't underestimate them.
Surpluses abound in just about every level of Canadian politics these days. Unfortunately, the prevailing wisdom appears to be "spend, Spend, SPEND!!" rather than "Pay down the massive debt while we still can".
Supporting our particular brand of socialism wouldn't be that hard if it didn't involve corrupt prime ministers and retarded government bureaucracies.
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What is really amazing in light of this is how Canada gets by with a land mass larger than the US, and a population smaller than California.
But almost all their population lives within a few miles of the border. The actual denseley populated area of Canada, where most of those services would be, isn't especially large when compared against the entire US.
--
You'll have no problems in Ireland.
In the last decade the software industry in Ireland has really taken off. We are now the largest per capita exporters of software in the world.
Ireland has 3.5% unemployment and a need for more IT people. Recently the government has introduced grants to companies who bring people in to the country to work in IT.
Try Irishjobs.ie
Also we speak a kind of English.
__________________
This is a non-issue - every tech worker in the US can afford dental and health, and most tech companies offer excellent packages.
The people who are hurt by the US health care system are low-income earners who aren't going to be picking up and moving to France for two years anytime soon.
One interesting side point relates to significant-others: if you want your S.O. to be able to work legally in France, they'll need to find a job in France and go through the work visa process in parallel. Otherwise, you'll have to sign a statement saying that you will support your S.O. and family, and your S.O. will probably never be able to get a work visa once they are in the country.
Dude, I work in the USA and I pay social security, and taxes even, but as a non-American citizen, I have no rights to benefits of same.
--- Jump!! Fire!! Bullet time!! - Lego version of the Matrix
Absolutely. But, how is this different from any other place where you are obviously different from the locals Eyour words, "blonde/redhead/italian/etc" I have been living in Japan for ten years and I love it. Is it different from, let's say, the US? You bet. But, that's what makes living here a GREAT experience.
As far as dating in the "gaijin ghetto"goes, I guess to each his, or her, own. I find that, in MY experience most of the Japanese who hang around the gaijin "infestedEareas are either looking for "cheap sex" or cheap English lessons. I don't care to offer either.
As far as the language goes, it's no more difficult than any other language that is TOTALLY different from one's mother tongue. I haven't had as much trouble with Japanese as I have had with some of the European languages - I still make more mistakes that I care to admit when I have to choose a "der" a "die" or a "das" than I have in choosing a "wa" and a "ga"
My 2 yen.
PS: If you're in it for the money, Tokyo, or even Osaka, is where you want to go. If you want to ENJOY life in this country get out in to the "boonies".
"Consistency is contrary to nature, contrary to life. The only completely consistent people are the dead." A. Huxley
Although there is plenty of IT training here, most professionals do move over to the US for bigger pay. With the Australian dollar so low, US dollars are worth more to take back home.
But if where you are is important to you, take a look around, Australia has a lot to offer.
Have a Passport. Try to get the company to sponsor you. There are differing levels of corporate sponsorship. If you don't get sponsorship there are usually 'working visas' you can work under for 3 to 4 years (depending on the country). Use lonelyplanet.com to check out the climate. Get a medical checkup and current shots. Do the math to make sure you can have fun living with what they are paying you in their own currency. Be familliar with the way their taxes, vehicles, and medical insurance works. Get the company to spring for a one month 'test', to see if you will fit in.
Really? I have several US citizen friends who have worked for extended periods in the UK within the last five years. Unlike foreigners coming to work in the US, their spouses were allowed to work, too.
I doubt there's any significant difference between Canadians and US citizens getting work authorization in the UK, bicbw.
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
What if you're a highly skilled IT worker with no college degree?
You do indeed need to secure a job (with signed contract) before you can get your work papers; furthermore, you cannot actually apply for the papers yourself, as that needs to be initiated by the company in question. This first step will take several months (3-6 or more, depending on the connections your company has.) After your company gets the proper paperwork from the labor ministry, you'll need to take your copy of the paperwork to the French consulate nearest you (there are several in the states; I had to go to Chicago to get mine). You cannot acquire the visa anywhere besides your home country. If you have a family, they'll need to go at this time, too. Set aside a few days to take care of this if you need to travel any distance, as problems are bound to occur. After you get your visa, you can then go to France and apply for your Carte de Sejour Travail, which officially allows you to work in France. This will take anywhere from two weeks (if you're insanely lucky or connected) to three months, and during this time you will not be able to legally work. Because of this, it's best that you have a fair little chunk of cash saved up in advance to cover rent and food for a few months. Once you've acquired your Carte du Sejour Travail, you can start work with your company; any family that has acoompanied you, however, will not be allowed to work and will also need to sign a form stating that they will not look for work, as well; the only exception to this for Americans is if your spouse/family member can get a student visa, which allows them to work part-time. (You'll also need to show that you'll be supporting your family, or else they can't even get the non-worker card.) You'll need buttloads of paperwork, in triplicate for the most part, and you'll also need to be able to prove that you have a residence in France, generally in the form of a utility bill addressed to you at your French address or a signed copy of your lease.
You'll need to pay French taxes and social security which are quite high, but fortunately you'll see serious returns on those taxes: The WHO rates France's healthcare system as the best in the world, and all essential care is covered by the state (and most employers offer really cheap supplimentary insurance to cover added costs, like lightweight casts and non-essential medical needs). The transit system (at least in Paris) is phenomenal; I spend exactly $25 a month in transportation fees, period. There are a bunch of other things, too, but suffice it to say that you see serious returns on the exorbitant taxes you pay.
That said, there are tons of IT jobs that need filling here. It's just virtually impossible for Americans to come fill them, and unless you can adjust to the European lifestyle (which, if you can, is considerably less expensive than the American lifestyle,) it's hard to live here. But it's definately worth it--I don't regret for a second all the blood, sweat, tears, and head-pounding I had to go through to get here. (I didn't speak a word of French when I was looking, either; that didn't stop me from getting over here, though. They need techs!)
Good luck; e-mail me if you want more specific information on any one thing.
$ man reality
Obliteracy: Words with explosions
Besides, suggesting that European countries are "socialist" is pretty ridiculous. European countries are free market economies. Their governments simply aren't as laissez faire and right wing as US governments.
So, you probably enjoy good healthcare, have a choice of good jobs, and live in a nice place. The fact remains: in the areas I mentioned, health care, crime, transportation (as well as some that I didn't, like education and infant mortality), Europe is doing considerably better than the US.
As one of the select group of scarce and pampered tech workers, none of that may matter much to you. In fact, the US is very kind to its best and brightest, which makes it a great place to work and live if you are one of them. But that makes your sarcasm and disdain for those concerns all the more unkind and inappropriate.
Also, while US taxes are nominally lower, the differences are actually not that large, and you have to buy a lot of additional services yourself in the US to achieve a similar level of security and standard of living.
Still, European wages in high tech are lower than they are in the US. And as a temporary worker, you will not have many of the advantages of the European social net. You won't get fabulously rich working in high tech in Europe, but it can be a nice experience.
"Excessive" is a matter of prespective.
In the UK income Tax is only ~22%-34%, low compared to the US's 45%).
You'll also generally get to claim back for all sorts of stuff, i.e. Pensions, Private Healthcare, etc.
However it varies, so see a Tax Accountant wherever you end up.
Since you are not a citizen, you will find that you are unable to access many of the services you are paying for.
Not true, If you pay income tax, then you get the services.
Typically residents receives most basic services including healthcare free at the point of delivery. When you return home your also be able to claim tax back for pensions provision etc.
It's really not simple, so as I said see a Tax Accountant wherever you end up.
First of all, find an english speaking company. There's many out there in Europe, where everyone will speak English in the office, even between French, or Italian, or Dutch. That's a good start.
You can pick up a new language while you're there.
Also, note that the salaries over there are nowhere near what you make in the US. You'll earn half or (a lot) less for the same work. Of course, the cost of living is lower as well, but keep it in mind if you have payments to make in the US.
Also, the culture is different in Europe: contracts are more binding than in the US: you'll have to tell them you're moving on months in advance instead of not returning from lunch (as you could do in the US). The benefits are different as well. You may get coverage from the company for the first three months as you're 'in you trial period'.
Taxes get messy if you have both US and European income.
But it's worth it. I worked in London for three months and it was great. Rome would be even better...
Good luck.
According to this email I received, Britain has revoked home rule.
NOTICE OF REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE
To the citizens of the United States of America,
In the light of your failure to elect a President of
the USA and thus to govern yourselves, we hereby give notice of the
revocation of your independence, effective today.
Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II will resume
monarchical duties over all states, commonwealths and other
territories. Except Utah, which she does not fancy. Your new prime
minister (The rt. hon. Tony Blair, MP for the 97.85% of you who have
until now been unaware that there is a world outside your borders)
will appoint a minister for America without the need for further
elections. Congress and the Senate will be disbanded. A
questionnaire will be circulated next year to determine whether any of you
noticed.
To aid in the transition to a British Crown Dependency,
the
following rules are introduced with immediate effect:
1. You should look up "revocation" in the Oxford
English Dictionary. Then look up "aluminium". Check the
pronunciation guide. You will be amazed at just how wrongly you have
been pronouncing it. Generally, you should raise your
vocabulary to acceptable levels. Look up "vocabulary". Using the
same twenty seven words interspersed with filler noises such as
"like" and "you know" is an unacceptable and inefficient form of
communication. Look up "interspersed".
2. There is no such thing as "US English". We will let
Microsoft know on your behalf.
3. You should learn to distinguish the English and
Australian accents. It really isn't that hard.
4. Hollywood will be required occasionally to cast
English actors as the good guys.
5. You should relearn your original national anthem,
"God Save The Queen", but only after fully carrying out task 1. We
would not want you to get confused and give up half way through.
6. You should stop playing American "football". There
is only one kind of football. What you refer to as American
"football" is not a very good game.
The 2.15% of you who are aware that there is a world
outside your borders may have noticed that no one else plays
"American" football. You will no longer be allowed to play it, and
should instead play proper football. Initially, it would be best if you
played with the
girls. It is a difficult game. Those of you brave enough will, in
time, be allowed to play rugby (which is similar to American
"football", but does not involve stopping for a rest every twenty
seconds or wearing full kevlar body armour like nancies). We are
hoping to get together at least a US rugby sevens side by 2005.
7. You should declare war on Quebec and France, using
nuclear weapons if they give you any merde. The 98.85% of you
who were not aware that there is a world outside your borders should
count yourselves lucky. The Russians have never been the bad
guys. "Merde" is French for "sh*t".
8. July 4th is no longer a public holiday. November
8th will be a new national holiday, but only in England. It will be
called "Indecisive Day".
9. All American cars are hereby banned. They are crap
and it is for your own good. When we show you German cars, you
will understand what we mean.
10. Please tell us who killed JFK. It's been driving us crazy.
Thank you for your cooperation.
The situation is a little better on the continent (France, Italy, Spain) because there are more CompSCI/Engineering university graduates.
So I don't think you'll have too much trouble getting an IT job in Europe - though the UK might be quite a bit easier than France, especially if you don't speak much French. Good Luck!
Cheers,
Janice
--
"I use the words you taught me. If they don't mean anything any more, teach me others. Or let me be silent"
Just a few words from a Swiss citizen back home after spending a couple years in North America:
Getting a job
Many conpanies are also desperately seeking competent IT people.
Example sites:
France: http://www.cadresemploi.fr/
Switzerland: http://www.success-and-career.ch
NB: CH is in the middle of Europe, but not actually in the EC yet.
Work permits
This can be complicated, but note that each European country has its own immigration laws and policies. A few of them (Germany, CH...) have started to facilitate the immigration of IT personnel.
Taxes
First, tax policies also vary from country to country. Here in Switzerland I am paying much less than I did in Canada.
Lifestyle
Reasons I moved back here in Switzerland:
- in 5h by car, train or motorcycle: get to Paris, Venice, Rome, StTropez, etc... Or drive 1h to mountains and ski at 10000ft, 15min to any peaceful place in the country, 15min to the biggest lake of Europe (lake Geneva).
Everything is close, rich in history, you can spend each week-end in a completely different culture at will.
- more holidays and free time overall, less criminality concerns and such, better infrastructures.
- more care for nature: less waste, less car driving (smaller distances for job too), people enjoy walking more often (because they can).
- less fast-foods and coach potatoes. Restaurants are more expensive, but you take the time to eat fine things rather than junk.
Public school system (my wife was from Toronto and had a 9 year old when we moved): just great !
Individual French classes (the official language in this part of CH) were offered to our daughter until she was fully assimilated (took less than a year). She enjoys walking to school through a small wood (5min), while she had to be driven there in NA. She can take the bus and go downtown on her own (no concern here).
Having kids, moving to CH was just a bliss.
Also by the way, Universities are basically free here (~600 USD/year).
I actually kept working for the same company (asked to be relocated with no particular benefit for that), and I must say that we all really enjoy it much more here (although I am the only one who was born here).
That's just an personal perspective...
I have looked into this for the past 4 years including trips over there.
First, you can NOT go over there looking for a job. You must have a job already before going over there. They will not even give you the papers to fill out for a job permit if you are in the country. You must do it from here.
The job is not a problem, the work visa is. You have to find a company that is willing to go through the pain of the paper work to get you in. Without a company with a job as a sponser, you have no chance of getting the work visa. That company will have to state that they could not find anyone else in the EU that could not do this same job. For tech's this is a fairly easy statement to make. If you are a fry cook you are out of luck.
You can get around this however. The easiest, most expensive is to start your own small business there. I contacted lawyers in France and they said that it works fine, but it costs you about $5000 and takes about 6 months. France is full of paper shufflers and the process is long, but will go through. Some of that 5K, I think most of it, is like serious money when buying a house, to make sure you are not a dead beat. The money is still yours, but it must be used for purchases within the country for your business, i.e. office space, accountants, copy machine, etc.
You can get one as a consultant, but you need letters from several companies over there, guaranteeing that they are in need of your services and will hire your services.
Good luck
- I like pudding.
What is really amazing in light of this is how Canada gets by with a land mass larger than the US, and a population smaller than California.
I graduated in May 1999 and found out about a program called BUNAC (www.bunac.org). They give US college students (and grads up to a year after graduation) a six month visa to do whatever the hell you want. I got the visa, contacted a number of companies before I left, and had a number of interviews with companies and recruiters lined up as soon as I arrived. I told everybody that I was looking for longer term work, and all of them were receptive to helping me find a more permanent visa.
Once I was in with a company, we submitted my application for the normal 4-year visa. I was denied on the basis that I hadn't had "two years postgrad experience," but within a month the Government announced that they were relaxing the rules to let more tech workers come in. We re-submitted and I got a "Key Worker" visa for 3 years. It wasn't that difficult and I know of a couple other Americans in London who did the same thing.
It's definitely worth looking into if you meet the qualifications (they do Australia and New Zealand as well)... and if you get sick of interviewing at IT companies, you can always pull pints in a pub. :)
- Getting paid in Euros currently is a bummer.
Taxes and the cost of living are very high, so be
careful about estimating what your effective
income will be, and the uncertainty of the
currency makes it harder to compare.
- Smaller companies often have signficantly
less experience hiring US workers and there is
enough paperwork that it can get complicated.
A safer bet, particularly for a first position
in the EU, is to work for a big company with
good experience sorting out the visas for you.
It is complicated and painful enough so that you
will want someone's help.
- Another strategy is to work for a US
company with offices in Europe before committing
to a more permanent move.
- There are many places where the working
language is English, which is a plus or a minus
depending on what you are looking for.
- Vacation policies are generally much
more generous there than here. He gets six
weeks so we actually see him at
least as much now as when he was doing web
page design here in the US.
- All your friends will come and visit you
and crash with you, which is a plus or a minus
depending...
He has thought about coming back to the US several times but each time they keep giving him a raise there, so that is a good sign for people who are thinking about heading that way...It's psychosomatic. You need a lobotomy. I'll get a saw.
No, I'm not blind to what we're paying for in the states. We have a fabulous military, vast national forests (which require a lot of resources to manage), and so on. I am amazed at what that extra 5% gets the Germans. I suspect that it is because they use the taxes more effectively, and that less of the tax money goes into politician's pockets, or to giving tax breaks to people who need them the least.
I would not suggest that you come to Rome. The Pope does not allow that we have computers. Perhaps you could obtain a job that explained to other Americans as Italy really is not similar
to a loading of the system. Much people forget that we have had a dictator and fought you in
world war two but they do not preoccupy themselves because there are many gangsters in your cities like New York and Chicago. I cannot believe that you have preoccupied yourselves
translate this of new to English.
Damn. I seem to be just another victim.
Works in France, formerly in Germany for Siemens. I can say that she is quite well payed for her work, enjoys her job, and loves the time away from the office (holidays!).
A few things to consider: If you earn over $75,000 USD you will have to pay American Taxes as well as the taxes of the country that you are living in.
Visas: You will need a sponser anywhere in the EU, and the paperwork will take upto a month to process.
Payment: Is the job payed in EU, Franc, Pounds, or in dollars? Currencies change value, so watch out.
Housing: Did you know that quite a few apartments do not come with a kitchen? Renting can be quite the adventure!
Family: Relocating your family can be quite hard to do, and cause all kinds of stress. Also, what if there is a fmaily emergency back on this side of the Atlantic?
In all, please write back if you do make the jump and let us know how it's going!
III.IIVIVIXIIVIVIIIVVIIIIXVIIIXIIIIIIIIVIIIIVVIII
This is not a critique of the European system - just a heads up for potential expats who will invariably find themselves paying for services they cannot use.
Try http://www.escapeartist.com and head to the overseas jobs area. Plenty of links.
Some of us have fallen in love with the notion of giving without reserve-Raoul Vanegiem, Revolution of Everyday Life
You could do worse than checking out the recently launched Industry Standard Europe or Business 2.0 UK - both have bucket loads of articles about the tech scene in Europe (from a business point of view, primarily, but it's good to know the financial health of where you're planning on moving to, right?).
/. stories about the French govt. banning english-esque net-related words), so it might be harder to get in without half-decent French.
You would be suprised on the number of people on continental Europe who speak english, although the French are particularly full-on about maintaining french as the primary language within their country (see earlier
When I was in Berlin, I don't recall meeting one person who couldn't speak english... The homeless beggers even spoke english. Multi-lingual beggers. I was impressed.
As someone else mentioned, the UK has a massive shortage of tech people with half a clue. Providing you play by the immigration rules, you should have no trouble getting sponsored, assuming you find someone who wants your particular skills. Central London is only 4 hours from Central Paris (including customs, check-in, etc., on the Eurostar train), so you may want to consider coming here and use it as a stepping stone in to Europe.
If so, check out JobServe, which is considered (more or less) to be the definitive way to find a tech job in the UK. If you don't get at least 3 interviews in a fortnight, you might as well give up (actually, maybe not. I guess if you're still in the States and trying to get a job in the UK, you'll get less bites. Point is, it's easy to get a tech job in London).
HTH,
...j
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