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Black Boxes to Track Driving Habits?
Another submitter sent in a related submission about the collision data recorders in many late-model cars - which serve a similar purpose as the black boxes described above, but generally only record the last five seconds before an accident.
geemon writes "With the recent stories of rental car companies using GPS to track how and where their patrons are using their vehicles, this information about autos from 1996 and newer having an airplane-like accident "black box" capability was a complete surprise. Tucked under the drivers seat of most GM vehicles, the "black box" can store a variety of info such as vehicle and engine speed, braking, and seat belt usage. Info from an accident reconstruction service that uses this data can be found here. Called "event data recorders", these devices were, "...Originally designed to improve air bag performance based on the severity of the collision, the event data recorder can tell traffic accident investigators about the car's speed; engine RPMs; how far the accelerator pedal was pressed; if the brakes were applied; whether the drivers seatbelt was buckled and what warning lights were on - all from five seconds before impact..." It seems that GM and perhaps Ford have been using this for some time. Here is one company that makes the Windows based retrieval hardware/software combo for $2500. Imagine the uses of this data that law enforcement, your insurance company, and lawyers may have after your next little mishap."
For a moment there, I was getting a bit worried about my wardriving habits.
just another reason that the govenment shouldnt own the roadways... sure repairs and everything are paid for, but stupid shit like this gets enforced. slowly but surely, all of our freedom is getting eaten away.
If you are in an accident and the other party's insurance company takes the vehicle, they will check the black box to try to shift the liability from their client onto you.
Fight Spammers!
Will they be able to be accessed remotely, because I really wouldn't want that. It's not difficult to disable the little bell that goes off when my key is in the ignition and the door is open, and likewise, the bell that goes off every 30 seconds when I'm not buckled...is this my box to tamper with, or will it be the car company's box that I'm not allowed to mess with?
...you're getting a bell!
Everything in the Universe sucks: It's the law!
Larry Selditz will begin selling a teenager's worst nightmare in November - a small black box placed in a car that allows parents to track exactly how their child is driving on the highways.
No. A teenager's worst nightmare would be a little black box that reports their "parking" *winkwink* habits, not driving.
,
faeryman
Do you wardrive too?
I am getting tired of hearing that company/organization XYZ has more control over something I own than I do.
:P
I'm going to spend the next week ripping shit out of my car that dosen't need to be there. EFI? F*ck that, we're going back to a carburator since I can't trust the god damn ECU not to call the NSA if I drive too close to the Pentagon.
So, how long before the insurance companies persuade the states to mandate these devices in every car? Or raise our rates hugely and then give a little of it back if we put in the box?
e phone tin-foil hat paranoia for just a day or two? This kind of sensationalizing gets really old when every single piece of technology is just another tool for The Man to spy on us, regardless of legitimate uses (sound familiar?) it might have.
Can we stop with the black-helicopters-are-watching-me-through-the-tel
I imagine it won't be long till it's a standard feature on new cars.
I doubt it'll be retroactive to older cars, even seatbelt laws don't effect cars that didn't have them, nor did center tail-lights.
I imgine it'll be 2006 models that ship with this technology.
This kind of thing is going to become the norm before too long. People become too complacent, too accepting of what the government and corporations feed us. Nothing short of riots and fires will keep us from sinking into a pit where the masses can't fart without being fined and the elite keep themselves warm at night with the flames of the Bill of Rights and the Constitution.
Disillusioned? What's that?
Not going to AC this time. Kill my karma, if you really think I'm wrong.
"I'll say it again for the logic-impaired." -- Larry Wall.
I thought it would be cool to see how fast I go, how efficient my driving habits are, etc. Then I thought, holy shit - people would quickly bastardize any legitimate non-invasive purpose the thing would have. So I moved on to my next invention: the Grabber! It can fetch cups from high cupboards with ease. Not only that, but it won't hang around your neck like a leash. It can't be used to enforce morals/territorial travel limits at all!
Crystal Meth: Would you ingest somthing made from a poisonous gas and an explosive metal? You do it every day -- Salt!
First, either kids or criminals. Then whichever of the first two wasn't gotten. Then, those who'll accept extra benefits for it (generally implemented by removing said pre-existing benefits and then only giving what you had before back if you submit.)
Finally, it's mandatory.
This is the time to oppose this stuff and set limits if there will ever be any at all.
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
My Parents:"Collin...Why is it that you seem to slow down when driving by large buildings and stop for short periods of time in the parking lots of large corporations"
forget it.
[listening to silence]... Do I hear any outcries? No.
Americans will swallow this just like pervasive credit history control, mandatory live long ID numbers (hello, Soviet Union), "Under GOD!" daily pledges (fuck those atheists), Id check, face recognition, mandatory 10-day address registration for all non-citizens.. and list goes on and on..
Losers.
<^>_<(ô ô)>_<^>
People who disagree can use public transportation. Hopefully, mass transit will get a much needed boost because of people who are unwilling to be tracked.
All your favorite sites in one place!
I swear this isn't a brand-spanking-new thing.
I remember seeing a "consumer report" on 20/20 (or a similar newsprogram) about this device being put in new cars without the knowledge of the buyers. It was also illegal to remove it.
Anyone have any better memory than I and can provide more detail?
With the "Last 5 second" black box I don't see much of a threat to privacy. It isn't like they're tracking where you're going or keeping tabs of any driving habits, and its certainly not reporting anything back to anyone without actual physical contact. Since you own the car (and thus the black box) I would assume that if anyone did want to get ahold of it against your will they would have to get a court order.
Frankly I'd like to have one of these babies in my car. It would remove a lot of uncertainty around what caused an accident: ("As you can see Judge, I was indeed stopped and my brake lights were working when the idiot rear ended me")
yes, one more reason to keep fixing my old car instead of buying a new car and paying 3X the insurance for it as well as 4X as much for the payments (300$ a month instead of say 75$ to fix it a month).
I tried to think of a good sig, and this wasn't it.
Great, now there will be even longer traffic delays from accidents as the police and rescue workers try to recover the black box from the wreckage before clearing it off the road.
I dont have a
But I suspect that most people, like the people who live in Alaska, will just stop paying insurance rates.
Seriously. People in Alaska get into accidents, and then they don't fix their car. Every other car on the road has a big dent in it.
I myself am a pretty strong advocate of privacy, but I do think that these boxen would prove beneficial if used properly. I would assume the Slashdot community to be slightly more intelligent than the rest of the world as a whole. And making another vague assumption, stupid people are more prone to wreck their cars. So, if anyone is to benefit from the tracking of cars, it would be us, those that are slightly less likely to be the cause of accidents. Take two, one that is sure to come up sooner or later - how long before someone figures out a way to hack their box and input it with signals indicating they never speed, accelerate or decelerate too quickly, or anything else for that matter? The technology itself seems likely to be hacked. Take three, would there be any LEGITIMATE way to make POSITIVE use from data obtained? Not always simply to scold bad drivers or find who is at fault in an accident, but to provide advice to drivers as to how they may improve their driving? Or perhaps seeing how your style of driving correlates to longterm vehicle damage or fuel consumption? All are just thoughts, and hopefully discussion openers.
- Shadow, the Laughing Orc
http://bomns.sf.net/
After it's installed how hard is it to take out and leave somewhere?
Johnny pulls in the drive way after coming from a techno drug laden rave fest...
"Johnny, as your parents we're starting to become concerned about you..."
"W..What do you mean?"
"Well according to our black box, you've been spending 7 hours a night at the movies."
"Oh, uh.. right. Ya, uh.. I admit it, I'm a movie junkie."
Outdoor digital photography, mostly in New Engl
After being nearly killed by a teenager with NO driving experience, I full support this. If you are against this, you must be paranoid beyond belief! This can only lead to safer driving.
I can understand why black boxes are in airplanes - its a huge liability issue. The more info gathered on crashes that do happen may reduce the chances of paying customers dying in the future. It makes good sense from a PR point of view. However, I would contend that black boxes in cars would do little to alleviate motor vehicle related deaths. We know *why* people crash: Many drivers are goddamned morons. We know that many teens are goddamned morons on the road as well - we don't need a black box to tell us that. Rather than putting these black boxes in cars to spy on our teens, we need to deal with the cause, not the symptoms: bad teen driving comes from a combination of outside pressure, overconfidence and under-training. For heavens sake - invest the money in teen driving training instead of these boxes! And parents, do us ALL a favour: Stop buying your children these expensive rockets on wheels!! Make them get a job to buy their OWN vehicle - it'll make them think twice before doing anything stupid that might wreck it.
If you didn't spend all day posting to Slashdot, your hands would probably feel a LOT less sore.
D'ya think?
Being a driving enthusiast, and a teenager (19), I think this is a simply horrible idea. Granted, I don't go exactly the speed limit (though I don't know a single person who does), and I enjoy a little spirited driving now and then, but I am very aware of how I am driving, and I am always cautious.
All this device could possibly do is annoy the crap out a driver, and in the rare instance that you do need to perform a sharp maneuver (some ass darting into your lane), it could prove to be even more dangerous by emitting an annyoing tone that would take your concentration from getting out of danger...
Invasion of privacy, that's all it is...
In the real world, nobody ever drives the speed limit under good driving conditions. Realistic freeway speeds are at least 80 in nondeveloped areas, and cars going under that speed are actually at increased risk.
Besides, nothing like this will ever stop the experimentation kids do in cars. In my younger days, I did donuts in the empty church parking lot, caught air on the Spooner St. bridge, drove my car over a lawn or two, etc. No excessive speed involved (you'd jump Spooner doing 35).
IMO, your best bet is to buy your kid a fairly modern, safe car without too much extra juice (try a Toyota with side-curtain airbags with traction control and ABS, or a Volvo if it's in your means) -- buying kids old cars is actually more dangerous due to the lack of modern safety gear. Those parents buying their kids Z3's... well, that's just natural selection at work.
Base lesson: No good ever came of spying on your kids and making it clear you don't have any trust for them.
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
Parent post deserves a 5 for funny.
It's like that all over. What? $500.00 deductable? Hmm......
Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
...if it costs 300 bucks and can be installed "in minutes" by anyone.
I imagine it would be simple enough just to disable it when you feel like it, and make everyone wonder.
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
more "shit like this" would probably get enforced if roads were privately owned. the owner could mandate what kind of cars could drive on the road, who could drive on the road, and how one could drive on the road. and these rules would probably be more strict than those in place on our government owned roadways since the government must follow the rules of the constitution(or supposedly they do :) but private citizens aren't forced to uphold the constitution. just imagine having to pay a toll to go to 7-11, hoping that RoadCorp wont revoke your driving privileges for having a broken tail light. bad shit. just because something is privately owned doesnt mean that it will be protecting "freedom." and competition that would promote this "freedom" would be limited since there is limited land to build roads on(at least within a city where most of traffic is) therefore large road monopolies would form(would Microroad be a good name for one of these companies?). -DavidJohnson
Insurance companies could care less about where you drive, but they are definitely be interested in knowing when you are on the road and for how long. The more time you spend unparked increases your odds of having an accident. That's why they rate older drivers better, because their 25' Buicks spend most of the time parked. Driving at night significantly increases your risk of having an accident. It astronomically increases your risk of having an accident with (or as) a drunk driver. How do I know this? I used to be an underwriter for an auto insurance company...
I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me than a full frontal lobotomy.
Only drive cars worth less than your projected deductable for collision. Bust up the car? Pfft. Get another one. It's really only worth insuring yourself.
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
I used to commute on CA-17, which connects Silicon Valley with Santa Cruz. It's always full of people who think nothing of driving 80 mph on a windy mountain road, who think anybody who observes the speed limit is doing it just to piss them off, and who basically exhibit behavior that wouldn't be tolerated anywhere except on the highway.
And that's what it's all about, isn't it? Communication. One reason people love their cars is that it's the one place they don't have to listen to anybody. Unfortunately, lots of people abuse this solitude. If you behaved, say, in a line at McDonalds the same way people behave on Highway 17, people would communicate a lot of anger to you. (That kind of communication while driving is known as "road rage".) Attempts have been made to communicate to the over-assertive driver. With results even -- whenever the CHP ups its presence on 17 the death rate goes way down. But the concept communicated is not "speed kills" but rather "be a good little boy when daddy's watching."
If some people end up getting supervised because they think good behavior is just a game, they've only themselves to blame.
Driving habits aren't what most teenagers i know would be worried about. If there was a little black box that recorded how much dope was smoked in the car than i think most teenagers would be worried.
There is no way I would buy a car with one of these black boxes. To the best of my knowledge my RSX doesn't have any system that keep track of how many times I hit the rev limitor or how fast I go, at least I hope not!! The last thing I need is someone I don't know and don't trust knowing when and where I took my weekly sprinited driving trip. I have reached triple the speed limit on twisty back roads. Personally I think it's should be none of anyone busy how fast I drive unless I hit someone. I think speed limits are set WAY to low. The type of car, traffic, and road condition determain how fast is safe.
Anyways, as far as teen drivers, give them a crappy old tank of a car after they turn 18. Let them drive that clunker for a year and promise that if they keep it in good shape and wreck free you'll buy them a car they want. That is what I wished my parents did before giving me a classic muscle car.
The journey is better then the end.
The aviation industry could teach us a thing or two about how to use this kind of data.
The system there is aimed at exactly what neksys said, reducing the chance of people dying in the future. The regulatory structure is aimed at encouraging people to cooperate with accident investigators by protecting them against getting sued or prosecuted for telling the truth to the NTSB.
To be comparable, the motor vehicle laws would have to make black boxes inadmissible in prosecutions and maybe even off-limits in lawsuits.
Anyone else notice the workaround, by the way? If I read correctly the data are in a circular buffer which is replaced every 250 engine starts. If the car's safe to start after a crash, an unscrupulous owner could clear the accident recording simply by turning the key on and off repeatedly.
"they will check the black box to try to shift the liability from their client onto you"
or, they will finally prove that its people over the ages of 65 that cause the accidents not those under 21! I swear, the elderly should retire their licenses when they retire from work, they drive dangerously slow in areas that are impossibly to overtake and frustrate all following drivers, and the frustration they create cause accidents!
----- Concentrate on promoting more than demoting.
In the Large Equipment industry. A friend of mine worked for Cat and they had boxes to record everything on all of the big rigs and tractors. It was the only way to find out what went wrong when it came in for warranty work. When it was a 50grand engine, you needed to know if they guy was running it 1K above redline non-stop or if it was just a fluke. It also could tell you if the problem was a long time coming, or just happened all of a sudden like.
Now comes the real question, can you upload a new driving record to the box using your own laptop or PDA? Removing the worst flags and artificially inflating your driving record?
You cannot live a full life in the US when you're carless outside of very specific urban areas.
This is most evident in places such as Atlanta, GA- the entire Gwinnett County area is one giant sprawl with no interconnection, so it's likely that anything you want to do is 5-10 miles away from you at any given point, with no public transit between here and there.
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
OK OT rant, it's a hot topic for me--I guess I could use a karma smacking anyway. steve
Vote Quimby.
Black boxes started out on airplanes because in the early days, a lot of planes would go down and not leave any evidence as to why. Because of that, the black boxes were developed as a way to record data in case of a crash. They are still extremely useful in figuring out what went wrong, and how the accident chain for such an incident can be broken in the future. I am not so sure that black boxes in cars would contribute in the same way. Typically the cause of the accident is a fairly straightforward thing to figure out, and the resolution process is already well established. Nonetheless, I would not put it past insurance companies to attempt to legislate the use of tracking devices as a way to increase their own revenue.
If brevity is the soul of wit, then how does one explain Twitter?
I thought cars in Alaska rusted away into nothingness long before anyone could get into a wreck with them...
I could build the same thing using a handspring and a GPS module for around $300 (ebay) ....
Then put this unit into a box (not metal) with a serial connection to hook up to your computer... viola...
Actually I've had this idea for a while but just too lazy to make it...
What else would you call a device that collects personal information about you that only a vendor or law enforcement can read? A camera I mount in my car that does the same thing so I can share the information with who I please is a much different proposition from that kind of trash. It would be nice if I had control over the device, but I don't. It's like the fifth ammendment inverted.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
A thing that comes to my mind is if you can track someones locations with the toy? If so it sounds a little to freaky. If something can be used to track violations of the law cheaply it is something agancies and police would want to have. Its nothing nothing paranoid about that. Its just plain old history of previous behaviour.
HTTP/1.1 400
The data recorder is already in your car. It is wired into the brakes, the engine, etc. This device merely plugs into the data recorder and produces reports.
"I'm not impatient. I just hate waiting." - My Dad
I can see the thinking here, but since it only monitors the driving from the perspective of the car, it misses some important things ... like why they are happening. For example, most erratic or irresponsible driving amongst teens is due to them talking to their friends in the car, trying to use a cell phone, drinking, fiddling with the radio, etc.
... and I'd still look like a perfect driver according to this device. So much for accountability :)
For example, even with this device installed I could be driving down the street (at the speed limit) talking on my cell phone, smoking a cigarette, drinking a beer through a straw, having sex with my girlfriend and tailgating the car in front of me
(Score:-1, Wrong)
But the only solution is to use their fat for soap
and their bones for the bonemeal...
Or, you frequently visit a friend just over the Mississippi border, a state that doesn't require auto insurance. Each time you do that, $bing.
I'm sure there are plenty of other (and better) paranoid posts.
I have a friend whose mother was waiting at a red light, when another vehicle backed out of a drive way and into her car pretty hard. When the police came, the driver of the other vehicle had the audacity to claim that my friend's mother actually backed into him and tried to pin the fault of the accident on her.
Fortunately, a person who saw this happen hanged around until the police came and was able to refute the other driver's fabrication.
If the car had a black box, the police officer could have quickly determined that my friend's mother's car was stationary up till the moment of impact regardless of whether a nice person did or did not loiter around at the crash scene.
Granted, people might complain about details such as the car's location and a log of speeds. These issues can be solved by convincing law makers to dictate a standard set of statistics said auto boxes would record.
Why don't they put a little black box that can monitor when these fucking motorcycle drivers drive in the middle lane, passing cars in traffic.
Or when they go flying past you in the shoulder doing 100mph.
Live web cams
I have a webcam. I put it on the floor so I can watch my dog all day while I'm at work. I do it because it helps me keep an eye on her, it's fun, other people like it too, and it hurts nobody.
When I have kids (God permitting), I may consider putting the webcam on the baby's crib. It would be fun, other people would like it, it would be a good way to keep an eye on the baby when nobody is with him/her for whatever reason, and it would hurt nobody.
Once that kid starts moving around, and growing up into a person, I would *NEVER* subject my children to that kind of oversight. I can imagine it would be VERY detrimental to their social life. Children need to live lives seperate from their parents. God knows there are things I've done (and still do) that my parents don't need to know. I'm sure my kids will do the same, and I don't want know about it (as long as they aren't hurting themselves or others).
You *NEED* some privacy in your life. I will NEVER vote for somebody who supports making something like this mandatory (and I hope my stubborn side will continue to keep this true, even as I grow old and raise kids of my own).
Bryan
Ejection seats? Hmm.
http://www.harristechnical.com/cdr5.htm
From this page, it seems that recorders like this are treated as any other sort of evidence. I don't see any that aren't related to a car accident in some way, though. The real test case would be one that involved tapping of the recorder data under another circumstance.
It seems obvious that the next step that's needed is to get some real regulations in this arena- NTSB investigation regulations could probably be easily extended to cover these devices.
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
Having a lot of data is a good thing when reconstructing accidents. Being able to determine exactly what the driver was doing to the car will help to distinguish between skids where the driver was making it worse, skids where the driver didn't do much to help, and skids where the driver was doing the right thing and didn't recover control in time, all of which can leave about the same evidence on the road and car.
It's not useful to know everything the driver normally does without having the road conditions in extensive detail. There's no way the box is going to be able to tell what a safe speed is, whether someone is driving erraticly in response to other cars and pedestrians. Someone driving slowly could be driving in fog, following a bicycle, in traffic, reading signs and ignoring the road, or just stoned.
This data is only really useful in conjunction with scene evidence and other witnesses (except that you could easily tell where the kid took the car and when). You can't really use it to measure driving skill.
Oh great, now my wife will be a back-seat-driver in yet *more* ways when she gets the trace-map in the mail.
Table-ized A.I.
I can see it now - the safest driver in school (who is probably the geek) will get paid by everyone else to house their black boxes in his/her car, all at once, all connected up.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
"By breathing, you agree to the following conditions."
No you don't own the car - or rather, you won't in a moment.
Having been in a crash that totaled my vehicle (gotta love people who turn left in front of you without looking) I can tell you what happens:
After the police and reporting nonsense your vehicle (or parts remaining of) go to a garage or adjusters location to be assessed. Once assessed the insurance company will tell you how much they will give you for it.
Here's the catch: They are buying the car off you.
When you go to collect your $ you sign and turn over the ownership, giving the insurance company total ownership. They are now free to do what they will with it... including checking the "black box".
So if you're car is totaled you might want to pull the box if you can. Mind you, they might have a few questions for you about where it went.
"They do not preach that their god will rouse them, a little before the Nuts work loose." Kipling, 'The Sons of Martha'
It just sits in my drive way anyways.... easy to track it.
they allways throw bs against teenagers driving, one makes a mistake, all of them does, today
there was on newspaper that some 18 year old
guy had a crash, normally they don't report the
age, but how come they do when they do crash
or something like that?
Young people aren't all terrible drivers or
speed maniacs, just some of them need to be
that all are claimed to be.
And this Black Box thing seemed to be an attack (or actually how article was written) against
young drivers, at psychological view it even encourages those who drive fast and unsafe to drive even faster sometimes.
This black box is a good idea tho, but there
are many privacy things concerned probably too...
Also, for example. you have a black box in your car, insurance company sees that you have drove 50 times 2-10km/h(or perhaps more...) too fast, so do they report this to police(and they make you a nice bill perhaps?), make your insurance prices to go ballistic?
Pulsed Media Seedboxes
46,000 people die in the U.S. from traffic accidents every year. This is obscene, especially considering that Americans living in all but a few cities have to drive in order to function in society.
We all have to share the roads. I live in New Jersey, and people here drive like maniacs. They drive illegally, and they should not be allowed to drive any more.
A device that would record them driving 90 mph, or thier quick 2-G swerves one after another as they weave through traffic, and get their sorry asses off the road would be a GOOD thing.
Something WILL be done about negligent drivers. Eventually our cars will drive themselves, but until then, forcing drivers to drive responsibly and not endanger MY life is a great idea!
...they said if I ever left without having their permission, letting them know where I was going, and when I'd be back, they would report the car stolen to the police.
Any sufficiently advanced influence is indistinguishable from control.
And the version included a cabin sound recorder to capture the last few seconds of activity before impact.
Usually people said, "Oh shit!" some, occasionally you'd hear snoring, but they did find a disturbing trend.
On large 4x4's in the deep south, the last thing said was "Ya'll hold my beer and watch this."
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
Having a little black box I believe is a good thing. but I would want additional features. Car owner has COMPLETE control over the access of the information stored within it. You can view, and access your driving habits to perhaps get better (or even your kids driving habbits :P )
This includes keeping everything secure from prying eyes (if it's stolen or impounded for whatever reason) and using some sort of public key crypto. VERY handy.
All gps signals are also encrypted. The device will send a signal to whereever you want to, or wherever it can be accessed, but the data inside should be encrypted.
RE: shameless plug for public key _CRYPTOGRAPHY_
The user (re: owner) should also have the ability to change it from full monitoring/recording to that 5-30 second recording time before an accident.
These would be great. And insurance companies should have restrictions against them that prevent the information from being required if they know you have the system in your car. Though, they probably will be unfair and biased against you just like any other organisation for failuer to be "patriotic" or "if you did nothing wrong you have no reason to fear"
- my 0.02 c
Oops! I did it again
If this was around when I was 16 (10 years ago) the roads would have been a much safer place.
I've done a lot of growing up and now understand why insurance companies charge so much till you turn 26.
On my 16th birthday I got an inline 6 alpha romeo that did upwards of 145mph and I pretty much maxed it out everyday, everywhere. I made it from Livermore CA to Berkley in just under 10 minutes driving in the shoulder of i580 at 120mph.
I was totally out of control as were 90% of my friends. A lot of my friends died (I should have on a couple occasions). Just think fo the lives this can save? Teenagers have no right to privacy from their parents. Parents can't do their jobs unless they know everything. I'm a parent now and will whole heartedly support this.
Driving isn't a right, it's a priveldge and teenage kids need to prove they deserve it. The DMV doesn't do a good enough job filtering out good drivers and bad. Cops don't have the resources to catch them all especially since the majority of teenage bad drivers come out late at night.
If my daughter wants me to stay out of her room I'll respect that because I know teenagers are sensitive in regaurds to private matters. But if she is driving MY CAR and she is IN PUBLIC then I fully intend to know what the hell she is doing and with who. There is no recoginized right to privacy in public places (yes the freeway qualifies as a public place) and there certainly is no right to it in your parents automobile when they paid for it and the insurance not to mention the clothes on your back the food in your stomache and the 300$ phone bill you run up calling all your giggly little friends.
Parents have rights too, not to mention responsibilities.
Let's not waste resources, most teens will learn to drive very well with the available training, but a few exceptions, who cause most of the accidents, need a bit more attention. "Black boxes" monitoring driving habits would help identify those cases where extra training would be most needed.
I drove well, well over the speed limit with my Ford , packing a 390. I found several GREAT places to park and.... Now I find myself the parent of a 12 year old boy who is starting to look at GIRLS. I just may purchase a black box and fake antenna, install it, and tell him it is real -- only to keep him in line.... Or maybe build one with embedded Linux? Should be interesting. Maybe get him to help me build it -- if he agrees to drive the BMW I plan on giving him near the speed limit?
Nice teen rant. To bad the woman who totaled my van was in her 40's.
I would've liked to have the data myself: throw it back at the cop who tossed me in the back of her cruiser for 2hrs claiming I was "DUI" when in fact I had 0 BAL and she was at fault (turned left in front of me while I had a green). The fact that people on the scene backed up my story didn't seem to matter.
You see, if you are male and twentysomething you are automatically at fault for anything.
Remember, cops are never predujical...
"They do not preach that their god will rouse them, a little before the Nuts work loose." Kipling, 'The Sons of Martha'
Ok, I've read many of you comments, and you all make good points, however I must put my final 2 cents in on this. To the nay sayers, I have this...
My father was an accident reconstructionist. He could tell how fast you and the other involved party were going from your skids and impact damage. There are six formulas for doing this. I'll save you the math, but these black boxen are not going to let them know anything new. In fact math and physical evidence can tell far more about the accident then some silly little black box ever could.
To the misguided parents who want one for their kid, tell me. Do you think this will improve your relationship with your child? Every time you check it, it tells you child you don't trust them. Now when they want to drive crazy, they steal a car, or hop into another friends car who doesn't have one. Maybe they'll be smart and unplug the silly thing. Don't waste your money, nor your time on something that can further damage the relationship between you and your child further then teenage years already do.
This idea is a waste of money, and I wouldn't give my two cents for their future.
Nexion
[black] But was stopped officer and he ran the light, right into me. [redneck] No he wasn't. [officer to redneck] How fast was he going in reverse, son?
I drove like a fscking maniac when I was a teenager. Its a miracle I didn't kill myself or someone else. I probably would be a better man today if the cops had busted me when I was 17 and yanked my license for a year, so I agree wholeheartedly with this product.
We're talking about teenagers here, not adults. It is acceptable for their parents to "invade their privacy" to protect them from their own immaturity.
-- SBT
-- Aaron
And now think that yes, that would be a great idea! I will submit this to my boss tomorrow and get a raise in this crap ecomony. They will call me a thinker, one who sees into the future.
Besides, because I live in a certain state they decided to raise my rates 17% even though I just turned 25. So now basically, my rate is the same as it was before I was 25! Wait a minute, you don't think they told me this state thing just to...
Met Life Is Suck!
It monitors speed (how fast they were driing), seat belt status (if they had the seat belts buckled), how many people were in the car (pressure-sensitive switches in the seats), and can be configured remotely by the parents--I don't have kids myself (only 22), but it's a great 'rule enforcer' for kids who have broken their parents trust when it comes to driving, but situations (e.g., school, work, etc) prevent the parent from totally acting the 'take the keys away and lock the doors' approach for punishment.
We have some companies who use these in their fleet vehicles or secondary finance market vehicles so they can look online and see where their cars are, prevent the cars from starting, see how many people have been riding with the driver, and send/receive text messages to/from the driver.
We market the product as informational use only, but people are using it in a Big Brother kind of sense. That bugs me--but that's another story for another day.
I disable sigs...do you?
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Say your kid says he's taking a girl to a given movie theatre. You know how far away it is. If you see from the box that the kid stopped the car for an extended period in a place that wasn't the same distance away as the theatre - or wherever he said he was going - then you can conclude you kid's been parking. Or sitting perfectly still in odd places for no reason.
I'm the stranger...posting to
This is really a few years old. I heard about this on dateline in 96 I think it was. These boxes were also used by some car rental companies. These rental companies then tried to give the speeders tickets and this was thrown out in court. i.e. no where in the rental agreement did these people agree to recieve a ticket if the little black box said they were speeding.
Only 'flamers' flame!
25' == 7.62 meters. I have never heard of a 7.62 meter car. Not even the Buick Roadmaster with the 8 in-line motor was nearly that big. Trucks or buses, maybe. But I have never heard of a Buick truck or bus, either.
I know that there is a "black box" in all (C5) corvettes. The first use of the black box was to help Chevrolet (division of General Motors) improve the braking, handling, safety etc... of the vehicle. Later on it was used to track what happened right before an accident. It can be used against in the court of law and it has been. It records what happens when you drive. Your speed, rpm's how hard you brake etc...
This isn't anything new it's just going to be used more often and the public (parents in this case) will be able to actually read the data without any expensive or proprietary hardware or software.
Then again what stops someone from just removing the black box? Surely it won't be that difficult for those who have any experience with cars and have access to the internet to find how to remove this.
I see this being used often by the parents but do you really need to monitor your child everywhere they go? Don't you trust them enough to not spy on them? I sure remember when I was a new driver and my entire goal was to get to 100mph and I did. But I did it carefully. I picked the highway and an empty time to try it.
Then later on I wanted to do a top speed run and once again I was very careful in doing that also. I wanted to be 100% sure there would be no cares around and the area I did this was straight. After doing both these things I didn't care to go fast anymore. It was like a "been there done that" thing and then I began driving normally. It's just a new driver's curiosity to see how fast the car can go. After that it isn't that great anymore. After doing my runs I didn't care to drive fast anymore. I drive with the flow of traffic or slightly faster. Nothing insane or close to it. If most other cars are doing 70, then I will do between 65-75 depending on the situation. How I feel, how the road conditions are etc...
I can see why parents would like to use something like this. I have a younger brother who is a new driver and he thinks his suburban 2500 is a race car. He drives like he owns the road and I know he drives it pretty fast. In this case after telling him my experience with driving fast he doesn't seem to care. I believe a parent should use this when they feel their child is a reckless driver or doing something else illegal.
I can also see this type of device will be used to locate the exact location of someone. In the future surely if this becomes popular technology will also enable parents to track every location their teen goes to, and what time and sooner or later it will be able to tell how many people are in the car.
After all is said and done parents will complain that their kids never listen, never talk to them, don't even want to be around them all because the parents give their children no freedom. That generation of adults will throw their hands up in the air and walk around cluelessly not understanding why their teens never listen and why they are so out of control.
Of course it will all be blamed on the video games they play, the movies they watch and the books they read in school. Parents always look for something else to blame but themselves. Trust your kid, sure they will do stupid things but that's why you are there. No child is perfect and everyone is curious about something. Myself being in computers and cars while others might not care to drive fast because cars don't interest them. It all depends on who the teenager is. A good way to prevent your kid from driving fast is to take them to the track. Let them drive the ¼ or any track. They will have fun driving faster then normal in a safe environment. Your teen will appreciate more and will understand to respect a vehicle more then they ever did before.
WELCOME TO DAUGHTER-TRACK .NET v2.0(SP1)
LISTING OF LOCALS FOR YOUR DAUGHTER
==========
3:03pm Left School
3:42pm Arrived McDonalds
5:11pm Arrived Library
6:55pm Arrived Boyfriend's House
7:31pm Arrived Pharmacy
8:01pm Arrived Parking-Lot Behing 7-11
9:00pm Still at parking lot.
10:00pm Still at parking lot.
11:00pm Still at parking lot.
12:00am Still at parking lot.
1:32am Arrived home.
Yeah, just what every parent wants to see!
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Big Brother will not come about mainly as a result of goverment mandated decrees, but mainly as a result of the rampant greed of business and industry. Big Brother already tells us we cannot cultivate certain naturally growing plants. What's next? Tobacco? Coffee? They already know where we live and what we buy and sell. We've all been identified and numbered like cattle. Now they want to control our driving habits. Why am I not surprised?
That's right, bring on the snooping technologies, the vide cameras on every corner and continue to delude yourselves that you live in a free society. One day we will wake up to realize that we are all a bunch of slaves under surveillance. By then, it will be too late.
"Oh Liberty, where art thou? We have never seen thy face or heard thy voice."
Every other car? Bah! Obviously you've never driven in Montreal.
"They do not preach that their god will rouse them, a little before the Nuts work loose." Kipling, 'The Sons of Martha'
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From what I've seen there aren't nearly as many left-lane slowpokes as there are people complaining about them. Or rather, people using them to avoid acknowledging their own irresponsibility.
Speed doesn't kill? Yet every time they enforce the speed limit on 17 the death rate plummets. Apply some basic science and logic! The faster you drive, the harder it is to control your car. The faster you go, the more little strains you put on that complicated machine you're driving, the more likely you'll throw a rod or blow a tire, or get brake fade at an inopportune moment. The faster you go, the more distance you have to use up while responding to the unexpected. And of course, the faster you go, the more kinetic energy to use up in the form of bent metal and broken bodies when you do collide with something.
Why am I bothering? Bad drivers don't want to be told anything. And that's why these black boxes are inevitable.
Blatent mountain making where mole hills exist.
So
So
Soooooo tiring.
I was a teenage driver not too long ago.
And I know how many (read: not all) of them think. They believe several things:
- They are invincible
- They can do anything they want on the road without having any concern for others and their safety.
- Their parents will pay for everything. A new car when they trash theirs, and the 5.2 billion dollar insurance premium they will be charged.
And sadly, with the latter being a beleif with a lot of basis in reality, it is obvious that drastic mesures need to be taken to monitor teenage drivers and curtail their often psychotic methods of driving.
If for no other reason than:
A - I'm worried about the safety of myself and those I love.
B - I have to pay for it, and so do you. Wonder why your insurance premiums are insanely high? Teenage drivers are a huge part of the reason. A careful teenage driver has no recourse but to pay the high premiums based on the irresponsibility of those in his age group. Driving habits which are often condoned by parents when they simply shell out more money for their kid's car and insurance without paying attention to the hazard they pose to other driver, their passengers, and those honest kids out there who just want to be able to drive to work and earn their own way, which is now far more difficult than it should be because of these assholes racking up the insurance rates for everyone.
They'll monitor where we are, every bleeding hour of the day or night, if they get their way.
You Americans are amateurs at this stuff!
It's no small coincidence that George Orwell was British.
Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. - Ambrose Bierce
The government has successfully brainwashed you into believing that driving is a privilege they may bestow or take away. In reality, with public transportation unservicable in much of the US, driving is an absolute necessity for one's day to day life. It is no more a "privilege" than the "privilege" of food and water.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
If underage insurance premiums won't drop as a result of this, it proves that the equipment is worthless.
It's true, idiot, that social dominance is a factor, you idiot. But every idiot knows that the communication is a part of social dominance, idiot. Which is why idiots in bank lines don't behave like idiots in cars -- idiot -- because their abuse of SD is more limited when idiots can actually talk to them.
Why do I keep saying "idiot"? Practicing social dominance of course! Which is apparently what you doing when you called me an idiot, isn't that right idiot?
"Eleven of the 45 companies that build passenger cars worldwide already use some kind of black-box technology, according to representatives of the IEEE. The best-known of those is General Motors Corp., which said three years ago that it includes the device, known as a sensing and diagnostics module, as part of its airbag sensing systems on most GM vehicles. The module can store such information as engine speed, vehicle speed, airbag deployment, seat belt deployment and the state of the brakes before and during an accident. "
There will be a huge market for this product, and it will probably save a lot of lives.
Anything worth doing is worth doing badly -- G.K. Chesterton
Insurance companies. Great. One thing, I love how it's not quite legal to drive without insurance. (At least where I live, if not in all states.) Why? Why can't I risk having to pay out of my own damned pocket if I, say, run a bunch of people over?
;)
:p
Seems similar to all the current CEO's being taken down. (Latest: Adelphia execs led off in handcuffs!) Ahh, corporate kickbacks. Only in the United States can you devestate thousands of families and get a slap on the wrist and a wink. Hell, bribe the right people and the government will make sure people *have* to purchase yer product or service.
But fuck me, I could've been voting for the past few years, yet I didn't, because I was a lazy bastard. (That has since changed.) I deserve what I get out of the government.
Nah, insurance companies are the real annoyance when it comes to driving. I swear to Bob, out of the last 20 near-hits I've managed to avoid, 18 of them were from women drivers. Not to be sexist, I know a few women who drive a hell of a lot better than me. *chuckle* But where's the sense in having lower rates for chicks? Feh. Maybe young unmarried chicks, I could see, but there's no way in hell I'm going to believe that some angry soccer mom in an SUV she, let alone anyone, can't handle, is a 'safer' driver than I am.
Shit, maybe I should start suing insurance companies for sexual discrimination.
him.....
All your lame "solutions" are reactionary, not proactive. You would like to *wait* until they do something and then through them in jail instead of stop it before it happens? To me thats even more criminal. People like you that want to send everyone to jail are the real criminals.
Where should we draw the line in your reasoning? If they crash send them directly to jail along with their parents. Nevermind my parents never had ANY idea I drove like that, nor do any parents. Thats what this is all about *KNOWING*.
Knee jerk reactionaries like you make me sick. You assume you know whats best for everyone else. Are we all to assume you never exceeded the speed limit? Should we put your parents in jail? Have you never broken a law, ran a stop light, cut someone off, done anything stupid? Lets put your parents in jail, they fucking deserve it for giving birth to you.
You make me sick and your entire mentality is a curse and virus on our society.
And once again - all together now - "It's for the children."
pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
The second most beautiful thing is a cop giving somebody like you a ticket for "Obstructing Traffic" for camping out in the passing lane. I've seen it happen, and it really made my day.
The most beautiful thing would be to see the Judge chew you out when you try to fight the ticket, but since I tend to keep my speed under 100, I don't get speeding tickets.
Why is "speeding" dangerous? Around here, outside of rush hour, the average speed on the local interstate is 75MPH. The official speed limit is 55. Some accidents are caused by the teen going 105, but also by the granny in her late husband's Cadillac puttering along at 53 in the far left lane.
FYI, this highway was designed and built prior to the "oil crisis", intended to be a 75MPH highway, the current speed limit is pure politics.
I do not deploy Linux. Ever.
Reading through the comments I wonder how difficult it would be to control the car partialy through this box. Have it read a speed off of a transmitter and prevent the car from going above that. Would solve a lot of problems altogether.
Is there any technology that can't be misused? Maybe we ought to ban it all and move back in the caves.
Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est
I've just thought of all those times in school when an entire class would be punished because of a few dolts.
;)
Who says school doesn't prepare you for the real world? We're all getting screwed over because of a few idiots.
Some vehicles, especially those manufactured during the mid to late 90's already have a black box that *they* neglected to tell us about. If you're curious, its normally located beneath the driver's seat. From what I understand of the hidden black box, is that it only stores retains driving information for a few seconds, but stops recording when a serious event occurs, such as an airbag sensor being triggered. The concept is that law enforcement would then be able to use the black box data to make critical determinations in accident investigations, such as speed, braking, etc.
I'm not 100% sure about why these weren't put into widespread use, but I believe the necessary laws have not been passed, so law enforcement is unable to use the data. Not all vehicles have been equipped.
Skiers and Riders -- http://www.snowjournal.com
All good points.
Just why is it so easy to get a drivers license? In California you don't even need to speak english (how can these people read road signs?). It's totally out of control.
I didn't even bother studying the test. I found out they only had 3 variations on the test so i failed it three times so I would have the correct answers to which ever I took. Then I got 100% on my 4th test.The actual driving test was a joke. Never once did we get on the freeway, no parallel parking, no traffic. It was really descriptive of the CA DMV. CA pays more to the DMV than any other state in the country and our DMV has to be the absolute worst. Where is all this money going too?
Autowatch by these guys has been on the market for a few years now. It plugs into the standard diagnostic port on your car and logs events past user settable thresholds. Apparently the original prototype was called "Narc on Lisa", Lisa being the inventor's then 16-year-old daughter. Poor Lisa.
The article stated that an alarm will go off if I am speeding, but it says that the current model does not have GPS(but future models will). So how the hell does it know that I am speeding? Depending on where I am, the speed is different; A rural road can be 45 to 55 miles an hour while the highway is 70MPH. So how does it know whether I am on a rural road or highway?
Another side note, it says the beeping gets louder when you turn up the radio. I predict a huge market boost for portable radio's and cd players with headsets.
For everyone who says that spying is OK for people beneath you because they don't know any better, there is someone above you saying the same thing about YOU. If this happens to teens, it will eventually happen to everybody.
Fictitious scenario from the future follows:
Officer: Did you notice your brake light is out? Oh, wait, I see here that you're coming from the Anti G.W. Bush activist convention Why don't you step out of the car sir.
American citizen: Uhm, yes sir officier (uh oh).
Officer: So you don't like my country huh? You no good punk/commie/terrorist/hacker/etc.......
The rest is up to your imagination, imagine if you're a "brown-American" in today's context. Of course this is a best-case scenario. In the worst case politically incorrect gatherings, civil disobedience, and activism, which are the the cornerstones of our way of life would be eliminated, because it's damn near impossible for people to get there.
"I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots." George HW Bush
... most teens will learn to drive very well with the available training ...
No they will not. Driving well takes years of practice sitting behind the wheel. Regardless of how well informed a new driver is they just don't have the reflexes, situational awareness, and prioritization skills that all work subconsciously and are based on experience.
This is one thing that I'm all for. I'm only young myself, but in the land of Oz, kids can get their learners permit at 16. Then they can have their probational license by 16+1/2. This lets them drive about on their own, albeit with a few minor restrictions that don't have much effect on them.
There are two problems with this.
1: They don't know how to drive - they haven't been doing it long enough to learn how to control the car through all of the possible situations they could get into.
2: Most of these kids are immature. They go out and try to prove how cool they are and how fast they can drive, and it comes back to point one... they just can't control the car properly. It's a major cause of headaches for everyone. They crash, or other road users have to be extremely wary of them.
This device would (hopefully) make young people realise that they can't drive like that because they are going to be found out!
Hey you fools! This became a standard feature on all GM vehicles in 1999, if you have a '99 or newer GM, look under your drivers seat. Although it is a black box it is a rudementary one at best, the only things it records is speed, gas pedal depression, brake pedal depression, if the driver was wearing his seat belt and wether the airbags went off. Guess what though, the only time you will ever probably use it is when you sue GM for killing your family, they will pull it from the car and prove it was the drivers fault.
That's right. As a true tin-hat, the FBI is out to get me, The CIA has my phone bugged and the NSA has already compromised my Linux firewall kinda guy, I'm always skeptical of any entity tracking my whereabouts.
TRUST NOONE!
Invasion of privacy, that's all it is...
There is very little privacy when driving on a public road. Your behavior on the road is not private. You may be observed, stopped, questioned, etc. without warrant. You agreed to all this when accepting the privelage of driving. What privacy you have on the road is pretty much limitted to your property not in plain sight. IANAL.
I usually don't bitch about rejected submissions, but I submitted this story over a year ago. :)
# 2001-04-16 18:18:49 Track-A-Teen (yro,news) (rejected)
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
What I want to see is for the black boxes to tell whether the driver was on the cell phone when the "incident" occurred.
#naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
a few years ago, let's say 1997-8 or so. I would have made my company go bankrupt quicker!
E EE IIIIIIII
*This is a tale of dot com glutony*
I was working for a small startup with a good amount of capitol. I was averaging a trip a week down to our LA office to deal with all the windows problems. (Remote wasn't possible, the CTO thought that running HIZ software through a firewall/Router/Tunnel would make it run bad)
Anyways aside from the problem of having a lunatic for a CTO my main issue was making sure that if the LA office needed me that week that they arranged all travel.
Well sometimes things were forgotten, and one week they forgot to rent my car for me. I was in the burbank airport, at the budget rent a car counter...
"Mr. Toqer we're sorry but we have no reservations for you!"
"Awe fuck, they slipped upped again" I muttered to myself. "Ok then what do you have left??
"We have a 1998 Convertable Jaguar XK8!" Oooh my pulse quickened, I was going to be there 3 days, sportin that ride in LA would be tits! So I called my CEO to see if it would be ok.
"Yo, CEO, your office manager forgot to reserve my car AGAIN! All the other rental places are out of cars and all thats left is a Jaguar Xk8"
"How much?"
"$350@day"
"Do it! I want to see you here in 30 minutes!"
Man, what a rush. I had never, and I mean NEVER EVER driven a car that fast in my life. I hopped on the 405?? and headed towards Thousand Oaks. I put the pedal to the medal and I felt like I was the millenium falcon going into hyperdrive! It went from 0 to 110 in no time flat.
Well towards the end of my trip I thought i'd go see the sunset strip by myself. I wanted to see the viper room where river phonix died (favorite actor, stand by me, ect) I made it a point to have a beer at about 9 of the joints on the strip. Fully loaded with a buzz I hopped back on the 101 to thousand oaks.
I look back now, it's not that funny. I really could have hurt myself, or some innocent bystander. 25, young dumb and full of cum.
Well, not really an exciting end to this post, just that I somehow managed to make it back to my hotel without wrecking or getting pulled over. Next day I handed the keys back and swore I would never drive anything over a "econo class" again. I'm not sure I can responsibilly handle that much power.
PUNCH IT CHEWIE
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAE
--toq
There's a bunch of fallacies in my thinking, but here's the big one: in order to go fast on 17, I had to do most of my driving in the left lane. Which maximized my interaction with the cowboy element.
So one day I'm driving over the summit, going maybe 10 mph over the speed limit. Road's wet, but not wet enough to interfere with my control of the car. My immediate mistake was not to wonder why there was so many people moved into the right lane. When I got to that famous curve just below the summit I found out why: some bozo had taken the curve way, way too fast and had spun around. So he's stalled, facing the wrong way. I have just enough time to stop without hitting him.
OK, tense, but no harm. Except that before I can merge in with all those cars in the right lane, another bozo takes the curve way, way, too fast and plowed into me.
I came out OK (seatbelt!), except for my glasses flying off and smashing themselves against the windshield. But the people in the other two cars didn't do so good. And Paku-San, my beloved Suburu, was totaled.
So now when I do 17, I minimize my cowboy interaction by using the right lane, except to pass. And I drive precisely the speed limit. Partly that's because there's more enforcement than their used to be. But mainly because certain illusions got smashed up along with Paku-San.
. no for real dude! whatever you do, spark up a blunt, and avoid clicking at all costs.
no, for real dude!
I think if you've got a problem of getting caught driving fast, then you need to be observed to make sure you understand that speed limits are there for a reason. Surely there are a lot of anarchists-at-heart types reading this saying "no way! eff that!" but seriously, 3 speeding tickets, and you need something to help you understand the law better. We all have to play along nicely on the road. Just because you woke up late doesn't mean you can put my life in jeopardy.
I make these: http://beatseqr.com
I'd love it if my insurance company told me they'd cut my rate in half if I installed a black box and it never reported any reckless driving.
Vote for Pedro
When the new cars start coming with the OBD-III generation of on-board computers, you will be trackable.
Although it is your box, it will be illegal to tamper with it, as per the Clean Air Act.
For more info, do a Google search on "OBD-III".
Rental car companies in the United Arab Emirates don't need this black box. Foreign visitors just need to read this little blurb from the US State Dept web site.
Country-wide traffic laws impose stringent penalties for certain violations, particularly driving under the influence of alcohol. Penalties may include hefty jail sentences and fines, and, for Muslims, lashings. Persons involved in an accident in which another party is injured automatically go to jail until the injured person is released from the hospital. Should a person die in a traffic accident, the driver of the other car is liable for payment of compensation for the death (known as "dhiyya"), usually the equivalent of 41,000 U.S. dollars. Even relatively minor accidents may result in lengthy proceedings, during which both drivers may be prohibited from leaving the country.
I believe this policy also pertains to a foreign passenger in a taxi. I was told that part of the logic behind this is that the accident would not have taken place if the foreigner was not in the country. Obviously I didn't rent a car while I was there, and I closed my eyes and prayed (to Allah, Jesus, RMS, Buddha, the Big Kahuna, Chucky Cheese, etc...) when I was in a taxi.
Info from an accident reconstruction service that uses this data can be found here. Called "event data recorders"
I was wondering if anyone who has worked with these devices would know if its possible to disconnect them without causing something like the car not starting or a check engine light to come on or the like?
Here is a 22 foot long monster. Sorry if I exagerated a bit, but I was pretty close...
I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me than a full frontal lobotomy.
Why does everyone think they have a right to privacy while driving on a PUBLIC road. The govt. has the right to enact whatever measures they feel are necessary to promote safe driving. Since they can't afford to put a police officer in everyone's car, I think this is a good substitute. People who complain about this are similar to those who don't like the traffic light cameras that record a person running a red light. They just don't like the idea that they'll be caught 100% of the time.
Vote for Pedro
How about introducing halfway decent mass transit into this country so us "moronic" teen don't HAVE to drive. I've been hesitant to get my license not only because I have to deal with the bureaucratic bullshit (and I'm too poor to pay all the whacked fees they charge,) but also that the fact is I won't get that far driving anyways. Everyone here is driving to the same places so why don't we invest into some good mass transit (not this trolley train bullshit) and get off our fat American asses and walk a little.
And don't get me started with Insurance companies...they pushed our whore-ish government in forcing Americans to buy their insurance. If they're gonna pull this fascist bullshit why don't they actually provide some kind of public minimal insurance that makes sure that they'll sew your leg back for a reasonable dollar?
The ones you enjoy will march straight up your puckered ass, junior. GNU/OpenAss and FreeGiantDildo straight up your stupid trolling ass, biznitch!
OK, I give. I don't understand the joke. Is "Bell" another term for "Black Box" or somthing?
I really hate to point this out, but the local city hospital head trauma unit is full of young guys with permanent damage and pics of trucks and racing cards on the walls behind their beds. Gotta reign this in!
Cars are more and more like planes these days, black boxes for these kids will serve an even more valuable role as preventative presence. They speed and race cos they can get away with it presently. Even if they don't crash, its habit forming bad driving.
And, IMHO I would like to add that driving isn't really free speech; it would benefit from more control, and hey, auditing!
first, every teen that drives like a jerk/idiot I can show you EXACTLY where they got that habit.
Their parents. If a child grows up watching daddy tailgate that little Kia in his big-bad yukon while trash talking, "Man this asshole is doing the speed-limit.. I wish I could just push him out of the way" or watches mommie floor it up to the barrels and arrow-board in a construction area and FORCES her way in to the merged traffic at the last second..
This is how these teens that drive like idiots and morons get their driving habits... from the idiots and morons that had and raised them.
And being a regular commuter..The numbers of drivers that drive like idiots and morons is increasing..
I dont think the parents should be black-boxing the kids... it should be the state, and pull their drivers license until 25 if the box reports idiot driving.... But then I also believe that the driving test/license requirements should be quadrupled, as with giving 50% of the traffic fines to the officer as an incentive to enforce traffic laws.
too many people are content with driving like morons, and they are breeding more morons for the roads.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Most everyone on the road, myself included, has one potentially fatal driving habit and teenagers have two. Almost no one looks far enough down the road to see what they are coming up on. If they did you would not see people putting on the brakes to go around the gentle 70+mph corners on the highway. The additional problem that teenagers have is they are generally inexperienced with driving their cars at the limit. In fact they usually don't know what the limit is until they've exceeded it and then their fate is in the hands of Newton and the person who layed out the road. This device would seem to do nothing fix the problem of inexeprience. I plan to take my child to an advanced driving skills course or an autocrossing course shortly after he gets his license. This will allow him spend some time getting cars up to and in fact beyond the limit so he can recognize where he is and drive accordingly.
my parents did that on my car 6mo ago... my dad owns a company and had a similar device for company autos... he put one on my car as well. he gave it away by consistantly knowing when i sped and went to places i wasnt supposed to... o well..
The BBC has an article dated Monday, July 22, on a plan to install electronic tracking devices in each of the UK's 24 million registered cars, ostensibly for the purpose of charging drivers according to road use.
in my vintage Volvo 240DL. Of course, exceeding the speed limit in that bad boy doesn't happen without some time to think about it on the way up to speed.
CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.
Sorry, but any empire that exists solely to push money around deserves our scorn.
I can't count the times I've been fucked by bankers, insurance companies, and the like - only to consider how much value they produce. . .
None.
They produce nothing. They have self-perpetuating capital while the rest of us work for a living. And now we find out they've been lying on their financial statements???
Look, you're already a rich fuck. If you've made it this far on your own two feet, then you're my idol. If you've made it this far on the backs of the young, who are just trying to get out of debt, then FUCK YOU .
If you're riding on the ability of others, you need to re-examine your life, and let the people choose. Good ideas belong to those who created them. Your "innovative" company can go fuck itself on Wall Street.
It's the market that decides, and it's the people who drive the market.
Most of us (the producers) would like to see your yacht crammed up your ass. Get used to it. Your way of business is finished.
Ours will survive. Yours will die. We are useful. You are obsolete. Still like capitalism? We do.
"Saddam Hussein cavorts with terrorists."
Because it wasn't. Damn Penny arcade editors posting their crappy comics here.
Wow. Never in my life have I ever heard a grown man describe driving around in a sexy sportscar on sunset strip by saying "I was the millenium falcon going into hyperdrive!"
I'm not sure if that means you kick ass, or I should be very, very scared.
Personally, I don't see a problem with these.. So they report that you're goin' over the speed limit, or you're not wearing a seatbeat.. You shouldn't complain, because you're breaking the law. What's the big deal if something comes along to enforce that law?
The logic there, is like saying stealing is against the law, but having no police to enforce this law.. Then, someone comes along, and makes it so there are police that enforce the law, and all the thieves complain, because they can't steal as easily..
RaGe
We're all just noise on the wires..
...what a Beowulf cluster of these black box thingies in the trunk could accomplish for humanity?
I didn't think so.
A Jag? Good acceleration?
Methinks thou hast never been strapped to a Japanese multi before. Two minutes on the latest and greatest 1 liter+ bikes from Japan will make you forget all about that trip.
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
Okay. so the box keeps data five seconds before the crash. ALL you need to do is hack it to let you know when it starts recording, and you have five seconds to save yourself! Amazing! They cant build a car that runs more than 3K without an oil change, but they have black boxen that predict the future accurately!
:P
Maeryk
Feminine Protection? What is that? A chartreuse flame thrower?
Really, if knowing that they're being monitored prevents a teen from driving like a jackass, good.
Contrary to popular belief, teens aren't the same as adults, don't carry the same responsibilities, etc. This right to all-encompassing entitlement is a big reason why kids today are a bunch of spoiled bastards. They should realize how lucky they are to be able to drive in the first place, rather than whine about their "lack of freedom".
Give me a break.
"Would it kill you to put down the toilet seat?" -- Maya Angelou
Hmm. This suggests an interesting new social philosophy. If you make people follow rules, you're punishing them. Most people don't need rules, because they have enough common sense not to abuse their freedom. So, it shouldn't be against the law to rob banks. After all, only a few are greedy enough to try to take all the money, and we shouldn't punish all the sensible people who only steal money when they absolutely need to.
I'm not sure that's very practical, but maybe I'm just an innate fascist!
As a teenager myself, I can tell you that good parenting will go a lot further than any black box, net nanny software, drug tests, and other blasphemy that todays parent tries to subject their teens to. This is just another excuse for parents to let someone/something else do the child rasing for them.
In the event of a serious accident, these little black boxes can serve to determine who may have been at fault for an accident. This can directly translate in either you getting thousands of dollars in settlement money or owing thousands of dollars. My 1992 Saturn SL2 has something close to the black box found in all Saturn models now. The service technician/mechanic showed me on an IBM PC what my top speed was (128mph), my average highway speed (87mph) and acceleration, my average city speed (37mph) and acceleration, how I brake, and whether or not I use a seatbelt. The black box in my car doesn't keep track of the last 5 seconds of driving habits like the newer ones do, but I was impressed that they had this technology in 1992. He said the insurance companies and the government will use the data for accident investigations exclusively. I this this is a good idea for all around fairness. It's about time people are held accountable for driving like idiots. You cause and accident and kill someone, you pay the price, and here's the evidence to substantiate your poor driving habits...see you in 20 years!
We've got uber spygear in cars now...it's only a matter of time before the insurance guys and their lobbyists pressure the auto industry and congress to mandate cars that can't break the law. Imagine, cars that won't go over the speed limit (based on GPS and databases of local speed limits); cars that won't start if your seatbelt isn't buckled, or if you've blown a high blood-alcohol content. How about cars that won't allow you to turn your steering wheel unless you've signaled first???
Hell, why don't we just outlaw the damn things right now and force people to use public transportation....freedom be damned.
Uggh....now i'm starting to sound like Stallman.
-ted
If this ever becomes manditory, then you can bet your ass that sports cars will all be legends of the past. And yes, that even includes modified Hondas and other imports.
This is really sad. If I'm going to drive around town as part of my job, at least I want to enjoy it to a degree. I don't want some Democrat telling me I can't drive anything with more then something that has all the power of a leaf blower just because it isn't safe for other drivers. But I keep forgetting, democrats are all for the US being socialistic (like Europe). Thus, it wont be long before most of our choices of cars will be minies. Bla!!!!! FUCK THAT!
Revoke the license of any moron who can't understand f=ma. "2 whole car lengths in front of that 18-wheeler, i'll change lanes there". Run 'em the fuck over. 10-4 good buddy.
The conspiracy nuts are like the underpants gnomes on South Park.
...
.NET APPS!!!!!
Step 1: Driving recorders.
Step 2:
Step 3: A SATANIC POLICE FASCIST UBERSTATE WHERE WE ARE ALL ROBOTS RUNNING MICROSOFT
Basically it comes down to this the Box is made to discover why accidents occur so that they can be blamed on teenagers to a higher degree. The thing is we already know why accidents happen. The standard scenario is something along these lines: Someone somewhere does something stupid while driving causing themself or someone else to have an accident. Case closed nothing further to investigate. It might seem close minded but its essentially true.
{rant}
This little device doesnt teach them proper driving. I mean since when has coming to a complete stop at every stop sign made someone a better driver? Never, its the concious, logical thought that goes into driving. A good driver does not neccisarily follow the rules. "Obey the law but dont let it rule you." What does it matter if I come to a complete stop at every stop sign if no one is there? They need to learn how to use their brain! Not become little socially controlled automatons who learn to obey the "black box" without thinking. This program isnt making good drivers, its making nice little tax paying, go exactly the speed limit, good citizen sheep that vote the way N'Sync tells them to.
When i was young, my mother never went through my drawers looking for pot, spying on my habits to protect me from myself. She would never resort to installing filters on our computer to make sure i wasnt looking at how to make bombs. Invading your childs privacy and forcing them to act like there is a camera over their shoulder is not the way to make sure they dont hurt themselves. What people do in front of a camera is different from what they do in private. Fear of consequences is not a substitute for morals. This "black box" is just another way for parents to invade their childrens privacy.
This is just another step towards Hilary Clintons "It takes a Village" perfect world for raising children.
{/rant}
-blar
Sometimes driving too fast or wildly is very educational. Doing doughnuts in a deserted parking lot is one way to learn about skids - How they feel, what to do about them, what's the really wrong thing to do. It can also teach you about what your car can and cannot do.
This saved my mother's life once. She was riding shotgun, and I was driving, when another car appeared completely across a highway lane. I did what I knew my VW could do, and how to make it do so, and missed them. I've avoided other accidents as well (tire disintegration, etc.) by knowing what to do when a car wants to go out of control, and what to do after it has done so.
There ain't no substitute for experience.
Wow, you must drive an SUV or something. That car isn't even very fast.
Welcome to slashdot, home of people who are outraged by computer programs that contain spyware, but gladly welcome cars that contain the same.
It's SAD the new and imaginative ways that are being invented to invade childrens' privacy and monitor their every activity. THIS IS NOT THE WAY TO RAISE A CHILD! Attempting to spy on your kid will NOT improve his behavior- it will just improve his abilities to evade your invasiveness. Here's what you need to do- teach him right from wrong from the beginning, and when he does wrong, pull out your belt and wear his ass out. Be honest with your child and expect the same from him. TRUST YOUR CHILD. Show him respect, and treat him like you expect to be treated. If you do all of this consistently then the result will be a child that has RESPECT, wants to do RIGHT, and is HONEST. Trust me, this method of child raising has been used for many thousands of years and it works almost every time it's tried. Sure there's a few bad apples that won't learn from any of it, but hell, do you think spying on them would've changed them at all?
Spying on your kids shows that you don't trust them, pisses them off at you, and shows that you don't respect their privacy. Um, hello? People need to start thinking of teenagers as young adults, not large children. They're not three year olds, and it doesn't help to treat them that way. You might need spyware to help monitor your small child, however, your teen wants and needs some independence, and you are taking it all away from him. If you honestly believe that your teen NEEDS spyware to fix his problems, then it's too late, you screwed up, and no spyware on the planet will save him or you.
Did you go to high school in Minnesota, by chance?
This is a serious question, but I can't tell you why yet.
"Hey son, I went to check on your driving last night and that damn box didn't work! Can you explain?"
"Yeah, I accidentally poured my beer into it while driving. Sorry about that. Guess they won't replace that under warranty."
Repeat until parent is broke. Or you have to get your own car.
You are in a twisty maze of processor lines, all alike.
There is a lot of hype here.
Yet another thing taking away the rights and insulting the intelligence of teenagers. Bah-humbug!
I don't know what's with insurance companies. It's their business to insure the driver, and they know very well that a lot of people speed, take risks, etc. Insurance is a risky business, they should accept that, not violate everyone's privacy. If it wasn't a law in many states to have insurance, the companies wouldn't be around. Noone would stand for what they get away with. It's a flawed business model. I myself pay a high price because of my frequent violations. There is noone hurt, no property damage, it's just because I speed a lot.
Cthulhu Saves.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
We've got uber spygear in cars now...it's only a matter of time before the insurance guys and their lobbyists pressure the auto industry and congress to mandate cars that can't break the law. Imagine, cars that won't go over the speed limit (based on GPS and databases of local speed limits); /. a while ago (6+ months IIRC) that dealt with a company testing out just that kind of tech. They were hoping to put the boxes into rental cars (I guess since many times people renting cars are not used to the area/speed limits). I haven't heard much about that since then; I guess the company couldn't find any buyers. Sometimes it's just safer to go over the speed limit for a few seconds to get away from something rather than just staying at or below the legal limit.
I remember an article on
cars that won't start if your seatbelt isn't buckled, or if you've blown a high blood-alcohol content.
They've got these already. Get pulled over for a DUI or DWI and you'll see. A judge can order that a box be put onto your car that does just that as part of your probation. One of my friends had this put onto his car about a year ago and it's remarkably effective. Anytime you want to start the car you must blow into this box mounted near the steering wheel. If you're registering too much alcohol on your breath the car will simply not start.
How about cars that won't allow you to turn your steering wheel unless you've signaled first???
Not sure if that'll ever happen. Paying attention to other cars on the road is important enough that you should see that a car is changing lanes without signaling. If the car is right next to you and will run you off the road then you probably wouldn't have seen the blinker anyways.
"Well kids, you tried your best, and you failed. The lesson is, never try." -Homer Simpson
Mod that man UP!
Ignorance may be bliss, but I'm sure as hell going to know everything about the who/what/when, etc of my kids lives, particularly when they reach adolescence. As a teen, I would have thought a device like this truly EVIL, and whined about lack of trust, loss of privacy, blah blah blah. All selfishly, of course... such a device would have cut into my Road-Warrioresqe style considerably (I don't know about the other posters here, but I just barely survived my own teenage years).
This is going to rub this crowd the wrong way, but privacy does not exist for minor children. When they live under your roof as a minor, somebody has to be the supervising adult. Supervision is not a parental right... it's a parental DUTY. If you've got one of those rare children who never screws up, is always trustworthy, and always does the right thing, good for you... but you are probably living with Eddie Haskel, and you just don't know it. Denial ain't just a river in egypt.
A little judicious supervision, even electronic, is simply part of being a parent... You can extrapolate this, and the same prinicple applies... think "dating"...
"Hey boy... before you take my daughter out, don't do anything you wouldn't want me seein' through a rifle scope, dig?"
If more parents were more involved, it could only be an improvement...
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
Hopefully it runs Windows, so I can trust that it will crash frequently when I overload it with my nice teenager drive skills. If my parents ever installed this in my car, the first thing I would do is figure how to change the data...
Here in Oregon, we have similar devices in the Tri-Met bus system. They were fairly recently used in an accident between a Tri-Met Bus and a Sedan. Initially, the driver of the bus said that the driver of the sedan was at fault. However, the device inside the bus, very similar to this one, but with a forward facing camera, showed that actually, the Bus Driver was at fault in the accident, and he was eventually fired.
Zagreus sits inside your head, Zagreus lives among the dead, Zagreus sees you in your bed and eats you in your sleep.
In Ireland, Axa insurance have a scheme whereby they cut the cost of your insurance in two if you agree to have a box that records your driving habits installed in your car. It's hooked up via satellite and has a gps thingy. Good idea for young drivers i suppose (insurance for a young driver on a small 1l car is >4000), too much like big bro for me tho.
hardware hackers!
Necessity is the mother of invention. And when they get into it they might find that they enjoy it.
Law of unintended consequences....
.... no more getting rent-a-cars to take to the street races. Maybe I need to start taking the bus to them so those pigs dont rape me.
Airplane black boxes were made to protect the airplanes makers from lawsuits. Each airplaine has anywhere from 200 to 300 black boxes. When the airplane is in perfect condition, at least a third of the boxes are not working. Except for the voice recorder, only the airplane manufacturer has the capability to read the data and recreate a simulation of the crash. In the case of the GM black boxes, I would suspect that the data collected is designed to help the auto makers, not necessarily the insurance company, and not necessarily the consumer. In a way, I am glad that the consumer is going to buy black boxes. This means that they will have the capability and the possibility of interpreting the data themselves.
I hopped on the 405?? and headed towards Thousand Oaks. I put the pedal to the medal and I felt like I was the millenium falcon going into hyperdrive! It went from 0 to 110 in no time flat.
110. On the 405???? I can tell you've never been in LA before. It's not for nothing that we call it the worlds biggest parking lot.
Mmmm.. Donuts
Actually I'd welcome something like this so I could optimize my commute. I've been looking for a good way to track details of my commute. I'd love to use that data with some sort of genetic algorithm to help me determine when the best times to be coming to and from work are. Excepting accidents, construction, and dumbshit drivers who don't realize the left lane is not for cruising at 5mph under the speed limit, I figure I could shave 10 - 20% of the time off my daily commute. Over a years time, that really adds up.
*Condense fact from the vapor of nuance*
The main reason seems to be to ensure that they take their breaks on time (ie. rest) and don't speed. Since the buses cover the remote areas not always covered by trains, these measures seem good for the health and comfort of the driver and for the saftey of the passengers.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
no :)
this is just ramblins so slashdot doesnt kick me for doin some response in less that 20 seconds(i.e. no), although the 20 second limit and the message "SLOW DOWN COWBOY" can sometimes be good against abusers, it should be turned off once a persons karma reaches a certain point.
Wow, my parents can't even program the VCR. So its easy to install, probably a couple of plugs back under the dash somewhere (maybe it even plugs into the lighter!). Disconnect the power, problem solved (gee, dad, I don't know how it came unplugged, someone must have kicked the wire or something). Or, how long until some young electrical engineer figures out a bypass on the hardware of the box?
Here's a second point: Do the black boxes on airplanes stop the planes from crashing? Do they keep people from dying when the plane hits the ground?
Come on, folks, give your kids some credit. Little "rat boxes" in the car won't keep them from driving like maniacs. Education doesn't really work either. Those gory slideshows in high school didn't stop me from doing 95 on the shoulder during traffic jams. People die. It's sad, but it's true. Time to deal with it.
Of course, the big question is, will it work in Linux?
You, then, are one of a minority that gets the balance between leaving well alone and caring right. Monitoring someone's activities isn't going to stop them. In fact, I think that, in the case of faster teenage drivers, the parents wouldn't like to know how they drive. I know my parents disapprove of some of my driving, but they'd just rather not know what I get up to than try to put a stop to it.
If such devices are implemented, then people are never going to learn how to judge safety for themselves. If a black box beeps at you whenever you take a turn slightly too sharply, or go a little too fast, great. You react to the beep.
I can see that this device would have problems distinguishing between different speed limit areas - go at 70 in a 70 and you're not doing anything wrong; do 70 in a 30 and you're more than doubling the speed limit.
Also, I can't see that such a device would help establish the cause of accidents. I have been in a couple of near misses where the only safe way out is to put your foot to the floor - but what would an insurance company say if they saw this information from a black box?
Like car accidents, most hardware problems are due to driver error.
As you may know, the government has changed not long ago. The former minister of transports, Jean-Claude Gayssot, was just dumb as to highlight speed as the major cause of accidents. Like pretty much all ministers before him, he couldn't make the difference between exceeding the speed limit and excessive speed.
I dream-hoped for a change. Well, no. The current minister, Gilles De Robien, is even worse. In his project for increased road security (let me laugh), his proposed measures enclose a blackbox in every car. But not only to record accident data, mind you. No, these boxes may record speed permanently and will be controllable by the police in order to detect speed limit infringements. Worse, he wants spying tickets on highways (you have to pay for highways here) so that they can tell whether the guy was driving too fast by measuring the time between the ticket was taken and when this ticket is given back to the cashier at the exit of the highway.
Fine, then, but what about useful measures for a change? Improved driver training? No. More severe driving license exam? No. Working out dangerous spots on open roads? No. Putting radars on dangerous spots instead of straight lines? No.
I do hope the US equivalent of the minister of transports has a clue. Here, it's not the case. Help...
One thing that I have not seen mentioned yet is the use of existing auto technology- like turn signals. No, they're not particularly high-tech, but they go a long way in making driving a safer activity.
While several posters have admitted to driving fast/slow/aggressivly/whatever, none have mentioned being predictable drivers. Personally, I don't care how fast/aggressively people drive (within safe but flexible bounds), as long as their trajectories are predictable. Gonna' change lanes or turn, then signal-- and not just during or after the lane change/turn. Feel like cutting me off to get that exit, despite the fact that I'm driving much faster than you? Fine. Telegraph your intentions, and I'll even slow down to make room for you.
I cannot stress how few people drive predictably (especially here in Albuquerque), and how much more pleasant driving could be (for everybody) if people would communicate their intentions prior to acting.
You could be the best driver in the world, with the reflexes of SpiderMan and a vehicle with good high frequency dynamics; but if other-(maybe slower) people don't see you coming up from behind at 90mph, or conversely you don't know that the "highway slolom course" ahead of you is about to change...CRASH!...You might or might not get hit.
On the road, you are only as safe as least-safety concious person around you.
Oh my god, I sound like a high-school safety film. Stay in school. Don't do drugs. Abstain from sex...oh wait, this is Slashdot...
At some point, my kids will be of driving age.
I know regardless they will screw around for a while, just like I did when I first got my license, but overall, I'd like to think I was a good enough parent to teach them to be responsible.
But it comes down to a very simple equation: If you don't trust your kids enough to handle a car on their own without some electronic device tracking them, you shouldn't let them drive at all.
It irks me whenever something comes out that takes the burden of evaluating the responsibility of childern away from the parents. "Oh, little Johnny is a handful, and he can't be trusted, but this little box will make sure he never does anything wrong".
Right. And while they peel away little Johnnys brains from the dashboard along with his freinds and a carload of innocent moterists, I'm sure that black box will make everything better after the fact.
The Internet is generally stupid
>but generally only record the last five seconds before an accident.
That's very clever, how do they know when an
accident is about to happen?
+AndyJ+
I carry a CB radio with me when I travel and overheard some truckers talking about their companies tracking their speed using GPS. Has anybody heard anything about this and can you point me in the direction to an article?
Setting aside the privacy concerns, I'd love a data logger for my car, attached to a GPS, that would allow me to replay my journies on the PC when I got home. I'm sure I'm sad enough to find the variations in speed, braking, acceleration between the same journies somewhat fascinating. I can see endless possibilities in being able to manipulate a record of my car use. Bring it on.
I'm okay with black boxes in teens' cars if they're designed to prevent bad driving; beeping if you're going past the speed limit, et cetera. However, I hope they lose the "teen driver" angle and market this to all amateur drivers; teenagers aren't often-bad drivers intrinsically because they're teenagers, they're often bad drivers because they're inexperienced with driving, much like many adult drivers. Teen drivers aren't the problem, amateur drivers are. Teenagers are already too much of a scapegoat for society's evils. However, I firmly disapprove of black boxes with tracking devices. What if you have racist parents who don't want you hanging out with members of another race or class? What if you're meeting with political groups whose opinions they disapprove of? What if you're a sexual minority and you aren't comfortable with your parents knowing that you've been frequenting sexual minority facilities? What if you're trying to get out of an abusive relationship, and you don't want your parents involved, but they start noticing that you frequent crisis centers? The list goes on and on... Most importantly, kids often need to make their own mistakes. Parents need to learn to let go, steadily. As Neksys so eloquently put it (you're my new hero, Neksys): "Guided and watched, yes - much like how you taught them to ride their two-wheeler, but spied on, no. If you only spy on them, they'll never lose their training wheels - I hope you realize that, if you're a parent."
Yeah, lets be clear that you cant say anything anti-american on slashdot without some american coming along and slapping a troll (i.e. a censorship flag) on it.
How fucking hypocritical is that!!! HAHAHAHAHA!
What exactly does insurance companies lobbying the government so that they can make more money off of us have to do with the whole black-helicopter thing? This is not a fuckin troll either, I seriously would like to try and follow your logic and the logic of the people who modded your statement up.
Like it or not, but wireless means pinpointable radio transmissions.
Yes, I am for serious. How can you enjoy the fact that you kid has a black box in the car? First of all, let me remind you that everybody was a kid and every single one of us has been in a shady situation on the road. Sometimes you have to do it. Period. Secondly, how can parents give their kids keys to the car and allow them to drive without trusting them? If you think that your teenager is not very good at driving, why don't you practice with him/her and if they're reckless just because they like it that way, make him/her get their own car and/or pay for their insurance. This 'black box' does discriminated against teenagers. I would never install a device like that in my kid's car and I would like to see civil liberitarians to speak out about it. Thanks,
According to 2001 California Highway Patrol statistics, drivers between the ages of 14 and 18 accounted for 26,210 injury accidents and 336 fatal accidents in California. Of that total, teens were listed at fault in 16,740 of the crashes
How many 14 year olds are there on the road in California?
Progressive Insurance patented "usage based insurance" back in 2000 that implies much of this technology. The product is called Autograph and it relies upon some sort of recording device inside the vehicle -- something like OnStar's onboard hardware would work perfectly. It has a wireless modem, a GPS unit, a computer, and access to the vehicle's Class 2 bus.
You can't tell me that someone will not have one of these black boxes opened, guts splayed all over the work table, and singing "I Can't Drive 55" within one or two days of release. If the information is encrypted, it may take a week. Kits for home modification, including any custom port plugs that are used, will be available for disgruntled teens to purchase within a month. And then PT Cruisers across the nation will begin reporting that your little geek has been remarkably law-abiding when they've gotten behind the wheel. If there's a product that screams, "Hack me Now, long and hard!", any lounder, I don't know what it is.
I can't help but think, that, maybe, having someone monitor everyone's driving habits could have a good side. Just think... if all the morons are always having their liscenses suspended, imagine how much less traffic there'd be for the rest of us to deal with! In Dallas, anyway, about 90% of the drivers would have to ride DART, and I could get to work much faster.
Lets see, drove 10 over and braked suddenly too much. Did not have the air conditioning on. If anything, a collection of these black box tapes could prove to be a good training program for playas, and use it for future lady advice.
Or if we could run linux on them we could use them as MP3 players...
Guns don't kill people; people kill people; so there is no need for guns. Perhaps this has been pointed out to you, but guns don't kill people. Bullets do. BAN THE BULLETS!! BAN THE BULLETS!! People just pull triggers. That's ok, isn't it? I mean, dropping bombs on civilians (accidently) only requires pulling a trigger, right? Few. For a minute there I thought those guys flying F-14's and B52 bombers were murderers!
Instead, if they use them to gather data about REAL driver habits and what really causes accidents, I believe they will find that speed is not the problem, and that most inter-city highways could safely raise the speed limit 10 mph or so, since many people are safely going over that limit anyway.
Instead, I expect that they will find that cell phones, listening to certain kinds of music, arguing while driving, weather and road conditions, or just bad driving habits like weaving in and out of traffic are causing the accidents.
Or maybe not - maybe speed will be the factor. I don't know, but I do know that, once you have generous data collection facilities, it then become possible to use science to determine what causes accidents, and how to make driving safer.
The one thing they will confirm is that speed of collision strongly affects how lethal the accident is - and they will be able to measure true speeds, rather than use the speed of the road. I see a lot more 10mph rear-end accidents at traffic lights than 65 mph head-on collisions.
But as an adult this appeals to me on certain levels. Most teen drivers I encounter drive like fucking braindead idiots and having some way to keep those people in check would be nice. Then again, there's probably lots of responsible teen drivers. But you know what -- I don't tend to notice those drivers because they just blend in with the rest of the responsible masses. The only ones who get noticed are the dipshits.
So, to the teens out there who are upset about this: you need to do one of two things: if you are an asshole dipshit driver, change your driving habits. Or, if you are a considerate, responsible driver, you surely know some friends who drive like dipshits. Put some pressure on your friends.
It's easy to feel invincible as a teenager, but just in the last several months I've seen a lot of nasty stuff happen on roadways to friends of mine (luckily nobody has died yet). You are certainly NOT invincible. And you aren't only taking your own life into your hands, you are also responsible for all the people around you on the road.
...if I still drove, I'd welcome this measure, as long as I get to control when it's put in my car. That way, when one of those morons slammed into me (I am a much better driver than most people here; I don't have a license 'cause I couldn't afford the second &#@* road test), it would show that it wasn't my fault.
Then again, after Mike Harris AND no-fault insurance, maybe it is a bad idea after all...
(The slashdot.org link is to a journal entry I just wrote on the paucity of the local drivers' skills, incidentally.)
I'm not a geek, I'm just a clever script.
I could just see a teenager worrying more about what the black box is recording than what is on the road.
Any time that someone is being measured by their management (or in this case, their parents), they work harder to make the measurement look good and forget about the real goal.
Sure, most of the measurements shown actually do contribute the safety of the driver, I think that the kid will pay more attention to the measurements than to the road.
Driving is a complex task, and can be overwhelming for a new driver. Let's not add another thing to the mix.
___ This sig is in boldface to emphasize its importance!
Good post but:
> hoping that RoadCorp wont revoke your driving privileges for having a broken tail light
RoadCorp wouldn't do anything to revoke your license outright, even if you're a dangerous driver (after all, more drivers = more money), but they might deny you access to their road unless your tail light is manufactured by a preferred RoadCorp affiliate. Thats the scary part.
"Old man yells at systemd"
for when the a**hle cop pulls you over and says you were doing 80 and has it on laser, when you know that you were doing 70 tops, that the laser doesn't work in the range that he says he used it in, and the seven cars between you and him would not give the laser gun enough time to correctly measure your speed.
A**hole cop: "Do you know why I pulled you over?"
Me: "Because you are below your quoat?"
A**hole cop: "Beacuse you were doing 80 mph in a 60 mph zone."
Me: "Well according to the 'little black box', I never passed 71 mph in the last month. But thanks for stopping. F*ck you very much" (drives away)
I wonder if the advocates of the black boxes (parents, etc) will subject themselves to the same monitoring? I can't begin to count the number of times I've seen a minivan/suv packed full of kids driving 20+ mph over the speed limit and jockeying across the lanes. I'd love to see how long the advocates (especially police and nervous mothers) of the boxes would put up with getting beeped every time they went over the speed limit. I think we'd see speed limits get raised.
As far as monitoring speed, you don't have to be going fast to have an accident. Most fender benders are at low speed and a pedestrian doesn't need to be hit at high speed to be seriously injured or killed.
If they were serious about technological solutions to poor driving then why do they allow cell phones to operate while the car is in motion?
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
... and finite reaction time, kinetic energy, and mechanical stress are all myths. Whatever you say.
Then watch as the speed limits get dropped down to 25 everywhere for the sake of public "safety" (and more $!)
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
It appears none of you understand the colloquialism "Sunday Driver".
Allow me to help you...
A Sunday Driver, a term in common use in Northern America, is one who is driving at less than 1/2 the speed limit. Normally a Sunday Driver is attempting to find a lost destination, or, worse than that, they are simply trying to look at the countryside. Generally, those who are not Sunday Drivers will yell such things as "Pull over if you want to read your map!" or "Take a picture, it'll last longer!".
Please engage your vocabulary prior to putting your mouth into gear, next time.
>You think the speed limit is too low? Then lobby to have it changed.
Unfortunately, people like you who don't have the wordiness required to properly reply to people's comments are always rallying against me.
I'd like to see a law that states that anything that isn't a huge farm vehicle (easy to see from miles away) must drive at least within 30 km/h of the posted limit. I'd like to take licenses away from drivers going under 10 km/h on any normal city or country lane when it would be safe to do the full speed limit.
But then again, perhaps with you on the road this wouldn't be the best ideea.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
I keep wondering if having a better way for drivers to communicate (and I don't mean the finger) would help things on the road? Maybe some sort of LED display on the back and/or the grill, for example: "Please turn off your turn signal!" Of course you'd still have people using it to display obscenities too.
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
If I had had parents who monitored my every move I would've just ended up doing the safest thing, sitting on my ass all day doing nothing but watching TV. I doubt that is what parents really want.
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
If you take a corner too fast, it beeps. If you stopped to hard, it beeps. It TRAINS you to drive better, with the added benefit of "Oh shit, my dad's gonna find out!"
Everyone is zeroing in on the recording aspect, but have you heard of these being used to fire or ticket ambulance drivers, where they were ORIGINALLY USED? It made them better drivers, and THAT'S the positive of it.
Everybody here complains that DeCSS allows them to watch TV on 'unauthorized' equipment, but they don't pirate, so the GOOD of the tool should be seen. Then something like this box shows up, and everyone concentrates on the bad, rather than the good.
Does everyone trust noone, and at the same time expect everyone to trust them?
Rant off :)
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
I just found the following in a german magazine (Spiegel):
>>Abgesehen davon hat die Justiz längst erkannt, dass es schon bei niedrigeren Geschwindigkeiten gefährlich wird. "Es gibt eine Entscheidung des Bundesgerichtshofes, die festlegt, dass die Betriebsgefahr im Auto ab Tempo 180 steigt", sagt Maximilian Maurer. "Bei höherem Tempo muss immer damit gerechnet werden, dass man bei einem Unfall eine Mitschuld bekommt."
Roughly translated:
Besides that, the government has already realized that it is going to get dangerous at much lower speeds. "There is a statement by the Bundesgerichtshof that states that the danger of a car increses at speeds above 180km/h", says Maximilian Maurer, "At higher speeds you always have to assume that in case of an accident you receive part of the faul."
This btw, was in an article about the end of a voluntary speed limit of 250km/h by car manufacturers in Germany.
If you want to e-mail me, use my PGP Key.
There is very little privacy when driving on a public road. Your behavior on the road is not private. You may be observed, stopped, questioned, etc. without warrant. You agreed to all this when accepting the privelage [sic] of driving. What privacy you have on the road is pretty much limitted to your property not in plain sight. IANAL. There is very little privacy when living on a public planet. Your behavior on the planet is not private. You may be observed, stopped, questioned, etc. without warrant. You agreed to all this when accepting the privelege of driving. What privacy you have on the planet is pretty much limitted to your property not in plain sight. IANAL.
Is this a sigs-optional kind of place? 'Cause I am totally down with that if you know what I mean.
The problem with these simplistic metrics is that it encourages a parent to absolve themselves of responsibility, and the "kid" learns that "safe-driving is anything that doesn't make the box go beep".
"hey, I don't have to check if johnnie is safe, the box will tell me" - well I bet it won't tell you if johnnie isn't paying attention, if he drives without lights, if he wanders onto the wrong side of the road, if he lets his mates start mooning passing motorists with guns....
Similarly johnnie has the perfect excuse when he has an accident "but the box said I was OK, so it couldn't have been my fault".
Teach kids to drive safely, to act responsibly, to look out for the welfare of themselves and for others, then let them know that you're putting your trust in them to do so. Good parenting is NOT a technology issue.
T
I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered. - George Best
I'm supposed to be more offended by "moron" than by "idiot"? I guess I'm pretty dumb, 'cause that goes right by me!
Breaking the law is a significant source of revenue for your local police department.
Also, I can't see that such a device would help establish the cause of accidents. I have been in a couple of near misses where the only safe way out is to put your foot to the floor - but what would an insurance company say if they saw this information from a black box?
I had the misfortune of witnessing a serious car accident last winter. Some guy in a small sedan tried to beat the light at an intersection and T-boned an SUV as it made a left turn in the dedicated lane.
What would the black box in the sedan say? 5 seconds before the collision, the driver floored it as it headed southbound at the intersection of Commercial Drive and East Hastings. In the SUV? 5 seconds before the collision, it was sitting at the intersection in the left turn lane eastbound on East Hastings and 1 second before the collision calmly pulled into the intersection to make a left turn.
The big question is "what did the lights say?" Even I don't know. I wasn't paying attention to that at the time. And if the clocks on the lights (they'll likely have logs somewhere) are off even by a few seconds, you can't use that very well. Typically though, I wouldn't doubt they'd be off by a few minutes, making whatever logs they kept totally useless compared with the gps systems in the cars.
"No problem. I have the capacity to do infinite work so long as you don't mind that my quality approaches zero."-Dilbert
- (1-.063)^2 = 87.8% of accidents would involve zero 15-to-20-year-olds.
- (.063*.937)*2 = 11.8% would involve one 15-to-20 year-old.
.063^2 = 0.4% would involve two 15-to-20-year-olds.
(Note grand total of 100%)That gives us an expected 11.8+0.4 = 12.2% involvement rate for that age group, if all drivers are equally likely to get into an accident. That makes the 12.5% number look less exciting.
The second statistic is more illustrative, but it's not clear whether "The group made up of 16-year-olds" means "16-year-olds" or "an arbitrary age range including 16-year-olds and younger, obviously unlicensed drivers". It would be valuable to see these numbers with unlicensed drivers excluded (since unlicensed / untrained drivers are probably more dangerous, and generally younger).
cheers,
mike
Were these devices to be installed in a majority of vehicles, they would be the first thing that the lawyers would seek to obtain in pre-trial discovery proceedings. Any recording device like this would become invaluable to either the plaintiff or the defendant - depending of course on what the data revealed. Considering the number of insurance defense cases that result in litigation, this device might produce an interesting result for parents who clamor for them: conclusive proof that their teenage drive was indeed negligent and thus the cause of the accident.
You don't have to understand Einstein's Theory of relativity that you can't merge onto a freeway where the speed is (supposed to be) in excess of 100KMH in most places around the world doing 60KMH (i.e. 60MPH doing 35PMH). A little electric jolt from the black box under the driver's seat would be useful. But they probably wouldn't know if their arse was on fire anyway!
It would be good if the black boxes could
jolt the driver if they are going too slow in the fast lane (i.e left lane in US/Europe, right in Australia/UK). Maybe alligator clips...
And why does the traffic on the 280 go from 80MPH to 20MPH for no apparent reason.... Probably because some clown dropped their cheeseburger or litre of coffee in their lap... Hopefully the box will detect it and give them a jolt...maybe the machine will short out and give them a nice shock when it gets it's huge sea of milky coffee complete with shots of kiwi fruit flavouring...
So you're basically saying, "exercising intelligent caution is more important than blindly obeying the rules". I don't actually disagree with that. Problem is, most drivers don't do either. A lot of drivers think that they're driving within safe limits, but are actually just fooling themselves. One indication of this self-delusion is the anger with which they greet the slightest suggestion that they're doing anything wrong.
Will these black boxes have a "rocking" sensor available? I'm sure parents would LOVE to know when their car is "rocking"...
---
IMHO, of course.
May the SOURCE be with you.
yeah, that's what the other *BSDs are for..
You're playing the devil's advocate here, aren't you? I can do that too (and probably be a lot more honest in the process): How about "We need to put in extensive monitoring into rental cars so we can be compliant with the "Patriot" act"? :-)