Slashdot Mirror
X-Box Hackers Trying to Blackmail Microsoft?
wumarkus420 writes "According to this article from CNet News, an anonymous X-Box security research team is threatening Microsoft: either release a digitally-signed official Linux bootloader or face the release of a new exploit that supposedly works without a modchip. While I doubt Microsoft 'negotiates with terrorists,' this should still turn out to be a good I-told-you-so if the exploit is verified." Sounds like a good way to end up in jail.
"Reveal your trade secrets Gates, or we will set in motion a chain of events that will conclude with our incarcaration in a vile butt-slamming federal prison! We're warning you!"
They hate the competition.
And give me all of Bill's money, or I'm going to hack into his bank account and take it!
These morons are just going to make the case for tougher enforcement and DRM.
It's not a war we want - because (and not to be trite) everyone will lose. Throw these criminals in jail and get on with it.
You know, c|net did a pretty good job of covering the story without the scare-mongering, sensationalistic crap that this poster did. People could read the article and draw their own conclusions, rather than shepherding the flock to the appropriate anti-X rhetoric opinion.
[
I knew linux users could get obsessive, but I didn't realize it had reached this level...
THis is, plain and simple, a bluff. If they had a way to do it, they'd release it; why wouldn't they? Who needs an official bootloader if you can boot Linux without a modchip?
It's a bluff to bully MS into allowing Linux on the Xbox. And it isn't going to work.
Why not try what has been suggested dozens of times before, submitting a game with an embedded Linux that is easily accessible via some cheat code or combo. Obviously the game will have to be professional quality, which on the XBox means almost nothing.
Food not Bombs is a nice platitude but it breaks down when you notice that the Bombees are usually well fed
I know I'm probably guilty of feeding a +2 troll, and honestly I'm ashamed for even having responded to such a retarded statement.
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
Does this legally qualify as blackmail? I can't think of any other laws that would apply here.
Nice of them to give Microsoft time to react and give them a chance to release an offical software patch.
Will Microsoft do it? I doubt it. I expect to see this out shortly and the touted side effects of mod chipless piracy to boot.
Microsoft should release this Digitally Signed Boot Loader Now
This sig is self referential.
They wont goto jail. they wont get caught. They're hackers! Everyone knows hackers dont get caught, OR goto jail. Besides, what kind of hackers use xboxes?
Umm, there's already an exploit that needs no mod (the 007 gamesave thingy).
.05% of people who buy xboxes to modify them for linux.
So big freakin deal? These guys sound like idiots.
Whatever they know will be found out by others anyways. I seriously doubt MS cares about the
Hell for every guy who buys an xbox only for linux, theres a hundred like me who'll buy a dozen games or so.
It's funny how much power nerds think they have. They have about as much pull as pee wee herman.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
Everybody in the article was an Aussie, so I assume that this Goddless Group of Techno-Anarchists (tm) are Aussies too. I didn't think that Oz had a DMCA like law on the books yet.
- doug
I remember trying this back in the days of Windows 95. I said, "Microsoft, you either release Windows 95 for free, or I will give away a secret code, 111-1111111, which will render your 'key-code' security invalid and allow everyone to pirate your OS."
They didn't listen, so I released it.
MS will never go along. If they are smart enough to know find the hack, why don't they know that? Why didn't they just release the mod?
Two options:
A. It's fake, they are bluffing.
B. It's real, they are missing the big picutre. MS looses money on every XBox sold. If they signed a Linux Bootloader that would be an endorsment of a way to loose money and I wouldn't doubt it to be against their own EULA for uses of the XBox.
Who do they think they are, Cobra?
I mean, gee... This sounds like some corny Saturday morning cartoon plot...
"reveal your secret or face my wrath!"
Now all we need is for them to declare that they have an army of fanatical zealots devoted to the cause of bringing their plan to frutation, i.e., Linux on the X-box...
oh, wait...
hmm...
This is my sig. Its pathetic.
>...the exploits would let anyone with even a slight technical knowledge "reflash" the Xbox BIOS, allowing users to pirate games
Say that again? You mean they've found a way for a mechanical arm to reach inside the X-BOX and hook up the write line on the flash?
No wonder M$ is going to call their bluff.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
Even if this turns out to be true, the copy scheme is likaly to be so difficult that the vast majority of people will not be able to burn there own games.
yeah really professional guys,thanks for that
what happens when IT/CTO managers read antics like this ?, you think it furthers Linux adoption or sets it back ?, i know we would look rather stupid if this article came up at one of our board meetings,
G
This was a stupid thing to do.
On one side:
M$ is not going to listen to intimidation (especially without evidence). And this only makes the hackers look worse.
On the other:
The hackers are taking over the world! Soon they'll be in our breakfast cereal! You hear that? Innocent BREAKFAST cereal! MOD DMCA UP.
Of course, michael is a loon about this blackmail thing. After actually *reading* the article (what? post without reading? naw...), I realized it looks like they're doing this in good faith (they'd rather not help the pirates, if possible), and the message is getting misconstrued in transit.
I know you were joking, but I want my Karma, so I'm going to reiterate your post in a serious tone.
It's called blackmail, and it's illegal for a reason, asshole.
if the DMCA didn't exist then they wouldn't need to blackmail M$. If you want to prove that a law is unjust then this is eactly what you need, normaly law abiding people (as most geeks are I assume) having to resort to illegal methods to get things done.
Take gun, aim at foot, pull trigger. Repeat until death.
The only hardware modification necessary is a dollop of solder on the write-enable pads on the motherboard.
I see the point, you don't have to buy and install a modchip, but you still have to open up the XBox. I would much rather install a modchip that I can remove if need be than reflash the original BIOS with the potential of creating a nice plastic brick. This sounds like another one of those "because we can" things...
Are they going to start forming gangs? Are they going to walk into a local shop and threaten to fdisk their customer data unless they get their protection money?
Trying to twist Microsoft's arm into releasing an official Linux bootloader is definitely the wrong way to go. If people were able to convince MS that there was actually a market for that sort of thing then they might do it themselves, but that's doubtful. Nevertheless, trying to blackmail MS into doing it will only increase the already massive resentment MS suits feel towards the open source movement.
And quite frankly it doesn't make the Linux crown look very nice. Not that MS has very moral business practices; but there's no need to lower ourselves to their level.
This is left as an exercise for the reader.
No doubt. I'm still trying to figure out how the word "exploit" was derived.
Sounds like a good way to end up in jail.
True. However, if the story is true, then the blackmailers are quite technologically savvy. If they also have the willpower (e.g. not bragging about it), it could be next to impossible to trace.
Um... the XBox Runs on an Intel (read, x86) Pentium III chip. So these guys are running Linux on x86 too.
True believers seek redemption from the sin of death.
And if I were rich, I wouldn't have to rob a bank.
So does the fact that I'm not rich justify my robbing a bank?
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
Last I heard US laws don't apply in .au
Does Australia have an equivalent?
BlackNova Traders
Sadly this is still not the holy grail of the unmodified box.
The only hardware modification necessary is a
dollop of solder on the write-enable pads on the motherboard.
It's because of the added solder that the group isn't eligible for the $100,000 prize being offered to the first person to run Linux on the Xbox with no hardware modifications at all.
nohup rm -rf ~/. >& zen &
From the article: However, the group believes that it's time to make it easier for users to take the steps necessary to run Linux on the console. Because the claimed chain of exploits is independent of any game, they could prove to become very popular. Users could download them from the Internet and load them into the Xbox through a memory card.
Does anyone else find this kinda funny? Isn't Microsoft losing billions of dollars a year on Xbox sales? They're pricing so low and using their deep pockets to try to gain the market share and unseat PS2. In a way, this may actually help sales and have more people buying the hardware, thus gaining market share, then they can jack up the prices again and break even or even make a profit on each unit sold.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lampposts...for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang
This is such a flashback.
Hilary Rosen's speech was about her love of money and her desire to roll around naked in a pile of money.
Better question: why does anyone care??
You want to run Linux on a $200 device? Buy an e-Machine and shut the fuck up. Linux on the Xbox serves no purpose except for "huh huh, Linux on a Microsoft machine, huh huh huhuhuhuh, I'm a super l33t geex0r!"
Stuff like this is an embarrassment. I hope they get slapped silly with lawsuits.
There was even a /. story about it:
here
Big threat...the info is already out there.
"I demand MS give me a copy of WinXP signed by BILL GATES HIMSELF or I will REVEAL THAT THE SECRET DOS COMMAND TO LIST ALL FILES!"
-Ben
This is all an elaborate ploy by Microsoft to get everyone to buy an Xbox. They want you to believe that either A) Linux bootloader will be released, or B) 37337 exploit will be released. Don't fall for it!
Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got to fashion a tinfoil helmet to block the RFID chip the dentist put in my molar.
[PowerPoint] is a tool for capitalist presentation
Even if M$ , why would anyone believe whoever has this exploit wouldn't leak it anyway?
IF this exploit exists at all, it will either be leaked or duplicated by someone else.
1) Your analysis is based on bad assumptions so your result is way off. 2) You're a sick bastard for fucking a horse.
"Anybody moves and the bunny gets it!"
Xentax
You shouldn't verb words.
Horseshit. This plus opening your Xbox and changing the flash update jumper (by soldering) will let you do whatever you want to your Xbox.
However, this update offers little that is not provided by the 007 buffer overflow, since all you have to do to get 007 is rent it from ballbuster or what have you, and you still need a memory card, and to get the exploit onto a memory card, which is what's stopping ME from doing it this way. Guess I'll be doing the swap trick.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Excuse me Sir. We have traditions straddling two millinea AND two centuries here.
Are you proposing that we stomp on the most sacred?
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
Why would a person who runs a "mod-chip only" business want to be put OUT of business by some supposed software development?
Am I missing something here?
And yes - to the poster above, the whole concept sounds like a bluff to begin with ...
Notably, the reference to Federal Pound Me In The Ass Prison.
Have fun fellas !
-- You see, there would be these conclusions that you could jump to
Finally some good press for Linux!
http://use.perl.org
I always used 0001235467.
Yours is SO much simpler.
Wow...even on piracy of unwanted/unused Operating systems, the linux community has found a more efficient method. I'm impressed.
It is likely that Microsoft would attempt to verify that this exploit exists before paying. After all, it's traditional to enclose a sample of your art before beginning any decent blackmail campaign. But this sample "exploit" could provpide enough information to both expose the hackers to criminal prosecution, and allow Microsoft to distribute patching programs in future games.
(emphasis is mine)
I really don't think Microsoft releases their money on every XBox sold. More likely, they fail to retain money on each XBox. I don't know whether to pity you for confusing "loose" and "lose" not once but twice, or to praise you for being consistent with your misspelling. Of course, making the same mistake twice means you really do seem to think that "lose" is spelled "loose", which is really sad.
Where's LoseNotLooseGuy when you need him?
I met Mike Tyson once. So what did I do? I smacked him upside the head...
I am still in the hospital.
yeah blackmail microsoft, GOOD IDEA GUYS...
whupdee doo. This isn't any more frightening to MS than modchips I'm sure. As others have said before me, these guys are just digging their own graves. I mean if it was a pure software exploit, that didn't require any game, then great. But this is just slightly less effort (well maybe more effort) then a modchip and you still have to open the XBox.
Why not fork?
Sounds like a good way to end up in jail.
Yeah... Hence the previous quote: an anonymous X-Box security research team is threatening
up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, B, A, B, A, select, start! ;)
Snoozer.
Donbot: "File not found".
Clamps and Joey Mouspad shoot the robot full of holes.
Donbot: "Let that be a lesson to ya."
Robot: "Thank you Donbot".
There is no sig, there is only Zuul.
"if the DMCA didn't exist then they wouldn't need to blackmail M$."
And if I were rich, I wouldn't have to rob a bank.
So does the fact that I'm not rich justify my robbing a bank?
Hmmm, the issue is this, if someone buys an xbox then they should be able to do whatever they like with it since they own it. The DMCA places restrictions on what you can do, it inhibits your freedom.
The bank was never yours to begin with. Now go away and don't come back until you have found a better metaphor.
A group of Xbox security researchers say they have found a way to run Linux on the Xbox game console without a so-called mod chip and will go public with the technique if Microsoft won't talk to them about releasing an official Linux boot loader.
:
:-)
:
Wtf is a "XBox security researchers" ?
Anyway, here's why the "researchers" are stupid
Xbox security researchers: Hey Microsoft, either you release an official Linux bootloader or we tell everybody what your Xbox flaw is.
Microsoft VP of engineering, to Microsoft engineer: what's that John, do we really have a flaw in the Xbox ?
John: Dunno boss, why don't you ask them?
MSVPE, to XSR: Hmm, well, okay then. But you need to tell us how you install Linux on the Xbox, cuz we don't know how to do it, we don't do Linux here.
XSR: Pfft, easy does it, them M$ morons don't know anything about computing ark ark ark! You do this, then you do that, then you exploit this hole your stupid engineers left here, then presto Linux runs
MSVPE: Okay. We'll get back to you as soon as we're done.
MSVPE, to MSE: John, here's the problem. You fix that RIGHT NOW so we can release uncrackable Xboxes from now on.
So, the "researchers" are stupid because
- MS doesn't acknowledge (most likely), they go ahead and publish the hack, and the entire community looks like a group of whining threat-makers.
- MS releases the Linux bootloader, then fix the flaw in later XBoxes and screws the rest of us Linux people, while at the same time, looks like the poor company that got its arm twisted by the 3v17 h4x0rs.
They should just have gone ahead and posted it, instead of trying to look like they can play with the big boys. Real hackers share the knowledge immediately, they "just do it", they don't try to make their story foam first.
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
How do we make stories from michael not show up? I can't seem to figure it out, and I'm sick of reading his trolling.
RTFA, please. The "hackers" would prefer a legally signed bootloader, since it would not have the side effect of allowing pirated games to run on the Xbox. That's why they aren't releasing their mods right away - they're giving M$ the chance to do the right thing. And actually, you can already boot linux without a modchip; see here for details.
no offense to you but.. ;)
only on slashdot would a post suggesting to actually read the article get a +5 insightful
oh snap, he called out your metaphor.
They're trying to force Microsoft to release a piece of software that turns the Xbox into a cheap PC that Microsoft sells at a significant loss. I'm sorry, but I don't see that as especially likely. The modification they propose still requires you to solder the mainboard of the Xbox, and to flash the BIOS. That's only moderately cheaper and easier than installing a modchiop, and a lot more prohibitive than popping a disc into the drive. Let's not also forget that flashing your BIOS in that fashion effectively bars you from playing Xbox Live, since it automatically scans the BIOS on load. Many mod chips, on the other hand, can be switched on and off making them a much more reasonable solution for many pirates.
Modded "funny" because anal rape is so hilarious? Isn't it time we left the middle-school humor behind? Yes, it is a quote from "Office Space", which is almost, but not quite enough to rescue it.
At the age of fifteen Doug and Dinsdale started attending the Ernest Pythagoras Primary School in Clerkenwell. When the Piranhas left school they were called up but were found by an Army Board to be too unstable even for National Service. Denied the opportunity to use their talents in the service of their country, they began to operate what they called 'The Operation'... They would select a victim and then threaten to beat him up if he paid the so-called protection money. Four months later they started another operation which the called 'The Other Operation'. In this racket they selected another victim and threatened not to beat him up if he didn't pay them. One month later they hit upon 'The Other Other Operation'. In this the victim was threatened that if he didn't pay them, they would beat him up. This for the Piranha brothers was the turning point.
qz
Quite simply, Microsoft has not motivation to comply. How does the "research group" expect to keep their method from leaking? It will leak regardless. So Microsoft either makes an official linux bootloader for Xbox or not... Hmm.... tough choice.
I used to bulls-eye womp-rats in my pants
I don't really understand the purpose of this. I mean, do you really WANT M$ to have any part of Linux?! Even if it IS just a bootloader!!!
Secondly, I don't think M$ would really even CARE if someone DID release this exploit (making the bold assumption that it actually exists) because they have really all but abandoned the XBOX already anyway. The only reason they're still keeping any ties to it is so that when XBOX 2 comes out it won't seem like they completly dropped the first one!
And why would they be worried about this? Modchips exist. "Oh, MS, we're trying to help you, but if you don't cooperate we won't keep it to ourselves. It's out of our hands."
Yea, right.
if someone buys an xbox then they should be able to do whatever they like with it since they own it. The DMCA places restrictions on what you can do, it inhibits your freedom.
So, does that mean if i Buy a gun, I'm allowed to shoot someone with it. Or, if i buy some paper, and a fancy printer, i'm allowed to make counterfeit bills? Your logic is flawed.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
....you might as well jump right-the-fuck off the cliff. I'm soooo very hoping this story isn't true. After all, this IS Slashdot, and we know everything is always accurate here, don't we?
You're right about MS turning this to their advantage. Hell, I WOULD if I were in their place.
"Remember that commercial about the computer hackers? The one where the bald and tattooed guy explains that he breaks into networks for the same reason he pierced his tongue? Yeah. Meet the Linux Crowd. They are THAT guy".
Expect something like that from corporate PR. Oh well. What's that they say? One step forward, two steps back?
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
If you had *read* the article, you'd realize that if MS releases an official bootloader, this will *avoid* piracy. The group says they will release the exploit if MS refuses, and the exploit, which allows Linux to boot, ALSO allows for piracy, while an official boot loader wouldn't.
RTFA.
-- Having a Creationist Museum is like having an Atheist place of worship
Anyone heard anything from Linus on this?
You say things that offend me and I can deal with it. Can you?
"No doubt. I'm still trying to figure out how the word "exploit" was derived"
From Dictionary.com:
[Middle English, from Old French esploit, from Latin explicitum, neuter past participle of explicre, to unfold. See explicate.]
this isn't terrorism. It's probably not even illegal. It's just asking microsoft to do the right thing, or we'll do it for them. It's being nice, and giving them the opportunity.
> And if I were rich, I wouldn't have to rob a bank.
More like "If my bank didn't charge these fees, I would be rich, so I'm going to make you either give me the money back or I'll tell everyone how to break into your bank." Still not legal, but as an analogy, closer to the truth. The answer is still "then don't do business with them."
So, does that mean if i Buy a gun, I'm allowed to shoot someone with it.
No, but no one would stop you if you wanted to take it apart and see how it works.
Or, if i buy some paper, and a fancy printer, i'm allowed to make counterfeit bills? Your logic is flawed.
I guess making them is prolly illegal, but you would not be likely to get in any trouble as long as you dind't try to spend them (which would technically be stealing from whoever you are trying to pass them off to).
Personally I think the flaws in both your analogies are obvious but each to his own.
Microsoft would like nothing more than to make linux enthusiasts look like pirates and terrorists. No advertising campaign could make this point as effectively as this threat does.
Unless this actually *IS* a M$ advertising campaign. Conspiracy theory anyone? It certainly sounds more plausible than linux h4x0rz thinking that M$ will give in to their threats.
microsoftword.mp3 - it doesn't care that they're not words...
Good grief. An example taken to hyperbole does not disprove the original logical construct. There are a hundred differences here between an Xbox and a gun. For starters, doing what you want with an Xbox (short of beating someone with it) doesn't even hurt anybody, much less kill anyone.
What the law does in this place is allow a company to sell you something for a certain price that is crippled and then make fixing it illegal. A better example of your analogy would be a company allowing you to buy a gun for shooting rabbits, and then being able to arrest you if you shoot deer with it. Shooting a person with it is illegal, just like a regular gun (which, running pirated programs on an Xbox is just as illegal as it is on the real deal: the PC.)
Try a little harder next time to actually think about what the analogy is trying to express.
What they are actually doing is avoiding possible DMCA problems. They claim that the exploit is only needed because they want to be able to run linux on the machine.
If an official linux bootloader were released, they wouldn't need to release the exploit and would be able to run linux as they wanted.
So they are trying to make it clear that although the expoit may be able be used to bypass copyright protections, it is not the intended purpose.
Of couse look how well that defense worked with DeCSS
Sorry but someone has to point out the horrible inaccuracy of this analogy. I guess it would follow more like this:
And if I were rich and then someone made a law stating that...no wait...damn I can't even work that into something coherent. It's that bad an analogy.
To put it another way. If we were once allowed to do something (work with programs and hardware for purposes other than they were intended for personal use) and then some old idiots said "Oh, no, some big fscking companies said they don't like you messing with there stuff even though you bought it. So you can't do it." and people responded in turn "You fscking suck and can either live up to our demands as your customers and make what we want or we'll tell other people how to do it for themselves."
I just don't get why they are bothering to include MSoft in the loop.
Just give it to the people...
(Sponsored by cheeseSource for President 2012)
This might get modded down as redundant, but the threat the article speaks of is something entirely different and totally game-independent.
Good idea. Give Microsoft a good reason to label modders as terrorists.
Rather than an exploit, this sounds like reverse engineering. Instead of extortion, it sounds like a deal "We won't do this if you do that."
I don't see a crime there. Then again, if you are M$, you can make a judge find you guilty of a crime if you don't pay M$ extortion^W tax^W for an OS even if you don't use M$.
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
if only I had a mod point
Reasons for running Linux on an XBox rather than another platform? How about:
1. Built in TV out.
2. Built in *5.1* digital sound. Most digital soundcards do not offer this, the only stream sent over the optical cable is in stereo. The one exception I know of is the sound built in to NVidia's NForce.
3. Built in ethernet.
4. Built in DVD/CD-ROM (although it is kind of picky about some of the DVD-R's used)
5. USB after a slight modification (not much harder than modchipping in the first place).
6. Relatively low power consumption.
7. It costs $199 brand new and is available just about anywhere that sells electronics.
Add to those cool factor and a love of modifying things just for the hell of it and I see some pretty comeplling reasons, particularly for those of us interested in having a media jukebox, firewall, mail server, or just hack-around box.
Granted, their methods of introducing new reverse engineering techniques and discoveries leaves a little to be desired.
"He's more machine now than man, twisted and evil."
Okay, that's the third or fourth comment I've seen saying they'll win the $100k prize if MS releases a signed loader.
They won't win the prize. The loader would still require the write-enable pads on the motherboard to be mechanically bridged. The prize specifies absolutely no hardware modifications as a prerequisite for winning.
.@.
Another PR victory for the Linux community.
But they can release a signed bootloader on DVD. Stick in the bootloader, then your Linux live CD, similar to bootloaders for the Dreamcast.
Not going to happen.
The artical explicetly states that it does not require a specific game .
My parent post was a joke - no, it isn't funny that performing such tasks would land one in a vile butt-slamming federal prison. In fact, though humorous, it is tragic.
In a previous /. article on the 007 exploit, it was stated that an Xbox memory card could be made from a standard USB memory key somehow. But there were no links to any information on that, nor can I find any references on any of the Xbox hardware hacking sites.
Is that indeed possible? And if so, how?
I know the Xbox controllers and other peripherals are USB (albeit using an oddball connector, but electrically it's USB). Are Xbox memory cards simply USB Mass Storage compliant devices?
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
I didn't know that us Slashdotter's dictated US law! Hey guys, we should start trying some other laws and legistlation too, maybe make this whole monopoly thing go away! What are we waiting for, let's get started fellow judges!
Thanks for resolving what I have posted in my drunken stupor.
-
And the Angel said unto me, "These are the cries of the carrots! The cries of the carrots!"
Why is this "obviously illegal" under the DMCA?
The DMCA bans circumvention of technological measures that control access to a copyrighted work, and trafficking in devices that are primarily designed for such purpose.
Here we have an exploit (or perhaps just information about the exploit, which certainly wouldn't be a "device") that allows the user to boot an arbitrary program on the XBox. But where is the copyrighted work? Where is the technological measure that controls access to it? There may be a DMCA argument here, but it is far from being obvious!
I just don't want an Xbox. Ever. For any reason. Run linux on it. Fuck, run my GRANDMOTHER on it, for all I care. (That makes no sense - I'm exasperated; sue me.)
I have my three boxes running linux. I have my AmmoCanLan with a Linux disc in it. I don't want another Linux machine, Xbox or otherwise. Why bother? Don't we really have enough?
No, I will NOT imagine a beowulf cluster of those!
I know it's very ego-centric of me to say this, so instead, I'll ask - am I the only one who, even if Linux was running on the Xbox, wouldn't buy it? I don't want it. Easy as pie. I don't want it on my desk, in my nest. I do not want another mess.
Informatus Technologicus
Imagine someone approaching you and saying 'I know a way to get into your house. Give everyone a key to your house, or I'll tell everyone about my method." You'd probably just try to bitch-slap the secret out of them, and once you had it, you'd fix the unsecured window or what ever their method turned out to be. What could possibly compel you to spend the time developing a key to give out to everyone?
HackerMojo
Maybe I am just being dense. But given that running linux is a lagitimate use of the XBOX under the law... wouldn't it be possible to file suit agianst them to get them to sign a boot loader. It seems to me that the maker of a hardware platform should not have the right to dictate who can and cannot program for it. What's next? if you are not MSME certified we will not let you create paladium enabled apps?
See there is a leagal issue here that seems to need serious exploration to me. Microsoft as a corparation has control over the XBOX platform... it seems to me it should be illegal for them to prevent people from making use of it as they see fit since they sell the product? has there ever been a legal case or precident like this set?
âoeTolerance applies only to persons, but never to truth. Intolerance applies only to truth, but never to persons.
A new exploit that supposedly works without a modchip
Should have an asterik and a footnote that reads "But you still have to open up the X-Box, and thus, void your warranty, by gobbing some solder on the main board."
Eligible for $100,000 prize, mod is not.
I would put these kids in jail first. I would push for terrorist charges. I would try to get one of those sentences where they are not allowed within 15 feet of a computer for like 15 years.
Then (just to piss them off) I would release Linux for the xBox just as they asked.
The icing on my cake? I would charge like $100 for it.
Alas, Bill isn't that entertaining.
He probably has better things to do with his life then screw with these two morons.
*Sigh*
Why is it that the first response of just about everyone is "who cares"? Are there really that few of you who just do things because they are challenging?
There are a fairly wide variety of reasons to want to do this. The single most interesting reason for me is the ability to play *any* media using this single console. DVDs, VCDs, CDs, Streamed content, networked files, internet radio, flash, movie trailers...Anything I can play using a standard PC, *plus* i already have it connected into my system to play "Halo", "Brute Force", "Outlaw Golf", and a whole host of other games. Also, I can play all my old favorites, using various emulators...pacman, galaga, rastan, etc, etc...
All of this in a console that I already own. Why the hell would I *not* want to do this? Particularly if all it takes is a one time investment of 10 minutes getting the $10 memory card setup. Crist, it's not even a *stretch* for me to make the choice.
You know what's even better? I worked on the filesystem code for the xbox-linux project early on, before the prizes were offered. I *still* got $4500 for that work. That paid for my time and all the consoles I'll want to buy for the next 10 years. Never has a paycheck been so gratifying.
So tell me how foolish I am, berate my hobby as pointless or shortsighted. Then you go buy an xbox *and* a pc, that's fine. I'll just sit back and laugh at you.
Ever hear of a disassembler? Particularly for something as small as a bootloader, disassembling it is going to be trivial, so releasing a binary is effectively releasing source code. Just because he didn't spell it out doesn't make him a moron, he actually has a good point.
Don't be daft. They've already got the binary, all they want is a signature - disassembly is completely irrelevant. A signature is a cryptographically secure method of vouching for a particular piece of data, in case you didn't know.
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
Actually, since they're asking for a signed bootloader, that would suggest that the X-Box uses cryptographic signatures to verify binaries. The whole point of that is that, while the bootloader binary itself could be copied and distributed freely, any modifications would immediately cause rejection, as the new binary wouldn't match its signature. For a modified bootloader, you'd need something like the exploit they're threatening to release, in order to circumvent the normal security checks.
SYDNEY--Four teenage boys were found clinging to life today, after being thrown through 98 windows in a normally quiet suburban Sydney.
"We don't know for sure who did it, but this looks like the work of the MSDS--the Microsoft Defenestration Squad," said a Syndey Police Department spokesperson
The boys alledgedly had developed an easy way to circumvent the anti-piracy controls on Microsoft's game console, the X-Box. Reportedly, they tried to blackmail Microsoft with the information to try get a version of the Linux operating system to run on the X-Box. Microsoft never reponded to their blackmail.
The MSDS is wanted in 56 countries for a wide range of crimes. Everything from extortion stemming from unreasonable licensing agreements, to the now familiar chucking-folks-out-the-windows routine used to discourage competitors.
Sydney hospital officials say that the boys are making a good recovery and will be released by the end of the next week.
Would this apply here? IANAL, but I don't think it would take a lot of imagination on the part of a prosecutor.
18 USCA 1951 - The Hobbs Act
* (a) Whoever in any way or degree obstructs, delays, or affects
commerce or the movement of any article or commodity in commerce,
by ROBBERY or EXTORTION or attempts or CONSPIRES so to do, or
commits or threatens physical violence to any person or property
in furtherance of a plan or purpose to do anything in violation of
this section shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not
more than twenty years, or both.
* (b) As used in this section -
+ (1) The term ''robbery'' means the unlawful taking or OBTAINING
of personal property from the person or in the presence of
another, AGAINST HIS WILL, by means of actual or threatened
force, or violence, or FEAR OF INJURY, immediate or future,
to his PERSON or property, or property in his custody or
possession,
or the person or property of a relative or member of his family
or of anyone in his company at the time of the taking or OBTAINING.
+ (2) The term ''extortion'' means the obtaining of PROPERTY from
another, WITH HIS CONSENT, induced by wrongful use of actual or
threatened force, violence, or FEAR, or under color of official
right.
If you guys talk about /. posts at a board meeting, then you look pretty stupid already.
Microsoft can never withstand the latest threat by this anonymous group: unless the company releases the official Linux X-box bootloader in 10 days, the company will be overriden by undead zombies feasting on the brains of its employees! Look out Billg!
It works in the movies!
So if they do release a signed bootloader, does Microsoft get the $100,000?
It would be in Microsoft's better interest to release a version of Windows for the Xbox than Linux. And that would just mean more money they can gain from the sale of the Xbox. Not only would they control the software, but also the hardware. Isn't this exactly what they want to do with Secure Computing Base a.k.a. Palladium? Just put a package together containing Windows, keyboard, and mouse that will connect to the Xbox via the controller ports, and slap a nice little pricetag on it.
Perhaps it's the 100 or so SCO stories I've read lately, but this all seems familiar. Little guy with no leg to stand on threatens big behemoth who could squash them like a bug if only they didn't want to get a stain on their shoe.
This does make me wonder about Nintendo though. PS/2 and X-Box have some serious hacking going on and both are running Linux. Sony releasing a Linux kit takes all the fun out of Linux on PS/2. Still I wonder how much Nintendo Game Cube being in third place is because of the lack of hacking on the device to turn it into something else.
That was my first thought, freenet that baby let all those 15 users know how to mod thier x-box.
A group of Xbox security researchers say they have found a way to run Linux on the Xbox game console without a so-called mod chip and will go public with the technique if Microsoft won't talk to them about releasing an official Linux boot loader.
Slashdot summary: "According to this article from CNet News, an anonymous X-Box security research team is threatening Microsoft: either release a digitally-signed official Linux bootloader or face the release of a new exploit that supposedly works without a modchip. While I doubt Microsoft 'negotiates with terrorists,' this should still turn out to be a good I-told-you-so if the exploit is verified."
So, the word exploit makes the differnce for you?
Feh, Microsoft can keep their crappy gimped up PC to themselves. My money goes to keeping honest hardware dealers in business. M$ can give them away and I would not want to go through all the hastle and DMCA shit storm it takes to make it useful. My idea of hacking does not include DRM nonsense while normal hardware is available.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Another episode proving Marx's theory that life consists of opposite forces battling each other incessantly. Hackers crack the Xbox:Microsoft produces new hack resistant version.
I was just thinking about this line of the article.
:)
"The group, which has asked not to be named in this article, approached ZDNet Australia after repeated attempts to contact Microsoft independently failed."
How long for Microsoft to look at there old emails and find out who this "Anonymous" hacking group is? Maybe they tried using an MSN account so they couldn't be tracked.
Yeah, rather than winning the contest through technical means, they'd do it through social engineering: makeing Microsoft think that they have the technical means, and conning them into releasing an official bootloader. Reminds me of the "superintendent" solution to the barometer puzzle.
They are OFFERING Microsoft a chance to conceal this weakness in the xbox before it is released to the public by getting an OS officially signed by Microsoft. In no way are they using this as a threat to MS, they are merely trying to be considerate in finding a win/win situation.
Because the "exploit" they are releasing isn't illegal. Therefore, it's not blackmail.. it's "We are going to do X unless you do Y, either way it's your choice"
Or, in translated form, "how dare MS released a closed system!"
On what grounds does Microsoft NOT have the right to release a closed piece of hardware?? Why should they HAVE to support all the geeks that want the hardware but do NOT want to buy the software that basically finances the hardware??
Answer: they don't. They have every right to release a closed system. People talk about all the goodies that come in that $200 box. Those goodies are paid for by the game software purchases that are supposed to follow.
If a not-insignificant amount of Xboxes sell without any of those game purchases following, the price point would be hard to maintain.
But of course, none of that matters, because "MS is bad", "bomb Redmond", and other similar bullshit.
Extortion of money or something else of value from a person by the threat of exposing a criminal act or discreditable information.
"I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
Indeed it is. Who's really so hard up they need to fall for another M$ dumping exercise? Buying these gimped boxes just gives the M$ loudmouths numbers to claim they dominate console gaming and thereby bully game developers.
The lawsuit I'm waiting for is a DoJ anti-trust violation and dumping charge. Perhaps Bill Gates can find his reward
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Meanwhile, the slashdot conventional wisdom is that they'd be justified (though maybe breaking a law) to just release the exploit, and I agree with that.
MS would like nothing more than to portray this as an act of terrorism, and to discredit DRM exploits in general. For whatever reason, the story was written up in exactly that way, leading the herd to charges of blackmail. I don't see where your accusation of anti-X (box?) rhetoric comes from; it seems in this case the slashdot mob is forming up in favor of the IP holder.
when you know damn well they won't release it.
It's most likely that these guys are bluffing. In any case, MS' optimum course of action for their own insatiable greed and tyranical control-obsession is not to do this.
If it was a bluff, they called it. If it was real, then it was real, and the exploit's out there: that's not a worse situation than if they'd released a boot-CD for Linux.
These guys should just publish the exploit that allows you to install GNU/Linux on an X-box. There is no risk here -- it is easy to publish something and remain completely annonymous on the net.
Quite frankly, though, I really don't care. I don't own an X-box, and wouldn't support MS' evil empire of greed and control by buying one. Even if I had one, why would I want to use it as a desktop-platform? It sucks for that.
social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen
...which they won't, releasing a signed bootloader won't prevent playing pirated games as this group claims. Once you have Linux running on the box, all it takes is for someone to write an Xbox emulator minus the anti-piracy measures. So this group's threat is meaningless.
I want a war. I believe someone will win.
I hope Microsoft preferably gives them their bootloader then they release the exploit anyway. You know, though - I'm not sure I'd trust a signed M$ linux bootloader. It's going to be closed source, you know it. I wouldn't be surprised if the thing ET Phone Home's when you load it up if your X-Box is on the i-net.
I haven't posted in so long, my sig is out of date.
Fuck Nintendo for not allowing us to run Linux on the gamecube!
....
Fuck sony for only letting one distro run on the PS2!
Fuck Maytag for not providing specs to hack BeOS into my washing machine!!
--The space between my ears was intentionally left blank--
Hopefully Microsoft will come to the table and negotiate and work things out for everyone's best interest. Otherwise, they'll get what they asked for.
Of course Microsoft's going to ignore them, but at least they can claim they tried.
No, you stupid fuck, but modding it IS something you should be able to do. Fuck, you people can be stupid.
All unfair meta-mods are now being meta-meta-modded as retarded.
...Fuckikoma-kun.
No class, nothing to add, not insightful, no nothing.
It's not an issue: writing 'XBOX'.
You suck. Little cocks.
suck-cocks.
20-some-odd posts of yours on the XBOX and you have to post this shit.
Black holes are where the Matrix raised SIGFPE
You know what'd be a total crackup? M$ comes up with a bootloader, and the group STILL release their exploit.
eTrade SUCKS
give us what we want, or we will release it publically.
This way, they get to hype their crappy hardware and make those who would actually use it look bad. Pththth-fit, no sale.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Yes, I understand the legal ramifications, but in light of all the serious issues in the world (terrorism, SARS, famine, etc.) a bunch of nerds threatening to fiddle with a box that runs video games makes me giggle. Doesn't make it right of course, but it's still humorous.
Maybe when this little mystery group is done playing with the Xbox they'll do something better with their talents that is actually worthwhile.
Even if M$ says "Ok, we'll cave," what's to prevent this group from releasing their hack anyway? I don't see the threatening party singing an official legal document promising not to release the hack.
I think this is a fake to try and get M$ to budge, and I don't think M$ will go for it.
***
Radio Shack. You've got questions...we've got blank stares(TM).
This is no different than saying "Ok, Microsoft -- either you release a patch to fix IIS, or we're releasing the bug report with sample exploit code next week."
:)
It's not blackmail, it's rather a fairly aggressive means of negotiation.
Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
I took a look at some XBox security documents a few months back, and there were a few things that struck me about the bootloading process.
First of all, they're using a 2048-bit public key, but a 160-bit hash. Using the GNFS, factoring the key would take about 2^405 operations. Finding a document with the same hash as a previously signed piece of code would only take about 2^160 (well, actually, 2^152 if we assume that there are approximately 260 titles available for the XBox). Still not really doable, but the mismatch indicates that MS probably hasn't thoroughly researched their work.
Second of all, the method used to pad the hash prior to signing seems pretty bad. Most your public-key cryptography standards recommend using a non-repeating pattern to prevent certain types of algebraic attacks. Microsoft's method amounts to little more than adding a (large) constant value to the message to be signed. CiteSeer has references for some related attacks-- might be worth checking out.
Also, it's important to note that the XBE bootloarder isn't the ONLY piece of software in the XBox ROM.
I've heard that various DVDs can cause the XBox to crash-- if these crashes are caused by various parts of memory being overwritten during the decoding process, it may be possible to create an MPEG2 stream that actually results in a buffer overflow, allowing some custom code to be executed (e.g., a bootloader that loads a copy of Linux from the DVD drive). If Microsoft didn't push the DVD player software through a security auditing process (and why would they? The DVD player isn't really related to the bootloader), then it's possible that some bugs that allow stack-smashing made it through to the XBox ROM.
I could go on, but let's just say that it SHOULDN'T be surprising that some motivated private researchers finally found an exploitable flaw in the XBox. Given the time that the console has been on the market, and the scrutiny it's undergone by thousands of interested parties worldwide, I'd like to tip my hat to Microsoft for having kept the XBox secure for as long as they have-- it's a pretty big achievement.
Hold on...I'm downloading one right now...
You know what?
can't they put the loader on a cd along with linux and run that?
I hear you saying, "That's lame. You can't use regulate people's behavior to that level." I certainly agree. And eventually the big IP hoarders will figure this out. But in the meantime -- well, I was never any good at tennis.
\Ex*tor"tion\, n. [F. extorsion.] 1. The act of extorting; the act or practice of wresting anything from a person by force, by threats, or by any undue exercise of power; undue exaction; overcharge.
2. (Law) The offense committed by an officer who corruptly claims and takes, as his fee, money, or other thing of value, that is not due, or more than is due, or before it is due. --Abbott.
3. That which is extorted or exacted by force.
Last time I checked, extorting things from anyone, be they a company or an individual, is illegal. What next, they'll ask for "protection money"?
Come off it people. It isn't about the DMCA. It's about a company trying to protect its profits.
To anyone who is whining now about "its my hardware, I should be able to do what I want with it!" I say to you, YOU knew the limitations placed on it when you purchased it. It was designed to play games, and that's it. Don't like it, don't buy it. MS wasn't out to make a cheap computer, just a decent game system.
Thank you, drive through.
What the heck are you talking about land them in jail?
This is a way to let Microsoft release a signed boot loader that avoids piracy. The alternative is to let the enguineers release the hack (no mod chip remember) and legitimately enable others to use unsigned software on the box. Unfortnately this will also allow people to use pirated games, but then fair use rules override this concern, and the developers DID give Microsoft an alternative. Now all we have to do is wait to see if Microsoft choses the lesser of two evils or decides to go insane suppressing the publication of legitimate engineering information.
Don't buy into the Microsoft propaganda hogwash before they even start it. You'll only encourage them.
I'm somewhat impressed the author of the article got the skinny on the 007 trick, but he missed the real point.
For non-Xbox nerds, it works like this.
The XBox has internal flash for the BIOS.
To enable flashing, all just need to jumper one point (referred to as the D0 point) to ground.
The 007 trick is an buffer exploit that allows you to boot linux, once you've got linux running, assuming you jumpered D0, you can reflash your internal BIOS with a hacked version (which ignores keys). You'll never play Xbox Live, but you can now play pirate DVDs and copy games to your hard drive.
With only the buffer exploit, it's at least a challenge, but if MS was to release a signed Linux distro, the process would be trivial. Jumper D0, boot MS-Xlinux, FTP to Xbox, upload bios burner app, pow. Hacked Xbox.
It's *extreamly* unlikely MS would ever do this. These guys can release easier solutions for buffer overflow related methods, but nothing can have as much potential for evil as a signed linux distro.
I participate in a local TV show about computers, the Internet, and the technologies surrounding them. Me, along with a friend, talk about Linux. Another friend talks about Apple, and a fourth one about Windows. In this week edition, we got a rep. from Microsoft and one from Apple, and we made a forum with the pros and cons of every Operating System. One of the arguments of the Microsoft people against Linux is that the code has no property at all, and all the legal problems that come with it, putting the SCO as an example to scare customers off.
This kind of reactions just give them more material to put over their mouths to argue about the illegality of Linux and the people behind it, and that we are just a bunch of hackers with no respect for IP or whatsoever.
The bad thing is that the (un)especialised media likes to generalize and now the Linux community is putting an ultimatum on Microsoft for them to release something that they don't even intend to, and that will not lead them to biggest sales.
Articulos para gente geek: Poleras, linux, libros y mas
I know exactly how they did it, I think. There was this one message board post I saw a long time ago. It talked about something extremely similar to the process named by the article. It is not simple. It requires a computer and some really technical steps.
Heres What I remember:
1. Open Xbox
2. Find these pads on Xbox mobo.
3. Solder them in a certain way.
4. Use your computer to go this one IP
5. Hook the Xbox HD cable to your mobo
6. Go to this one IP, which will flash your BIOS
7. Load up programs onto Xbox through CD RW's
6 and 7 are simplified because I don't remember what it said exactly. They were much longer and more technical than they are here. Basically, if you follow the steps, your Xbox's BIOS gets redone and basically nulls the need for a mod chip, since that is what a mod chip does. The technique does work, as many people who saw the post tried it and it worked, but is kinda hard, and only geeks will do it. MS has nothing to fear if they don't release a signed Linux.
"Trying to twist Microsoft's arm..."
I just had the most distubing image pass through my mind of Bill Gates being physically harmed. It WAS kind of funny, though.
Please stop stalking me, bro.
"A signed Linux boot loader will not allow users to load pirated games, they say. However, the release of new Xbox exploits that the researchers claim to have developed to run Linux on the console could have the side effect of allowing piracy without the need to install a mod chip, something the hackers say they would like to avoid"
This is less terroristic than the replies and post would tend to make you believe.
forget it.
Denmark was the first country to adopt the EUCD (DMCA++). Here's a good EUCD status page. It has the same broad anti-circumvention tool proscriptions as the DMCA.
The real problem is not with the security checks per say. It is the loss of money that Microsoft will face. If they release a signed bootloader you could write games for the X-BOX without paying a fee to Big Bill.
You could put linux,SDL, and the game of your your own creation on a CD or DVD and Sell it to the masses with out paying MS a penny.
So what if some people steal your game. We all know some peope will do that anyway. Of course a Linux+usb keyboard/mouse/printer running Linux/Open Office/Mozilla could be the first "net applance" that really takes off. I wounder how long it would take Lindows before they offered a CD+Keyboard/mouse setup.
Oh this could be soo bad for Microsoft. They will never do it.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
Sounds like a good way to end up in jail.
What slant?
Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
actually it was a Straw Man,
Read, L
I'd flip these guys the finger and have their asses thrown in the pokey. Of all the gall...
hax0rz:"Obey me!"
MS:"Fuck off, clown!" (secretly calling police)
hax0rz:"Shit, did you call the cops?"
MS: "No, but stay on the line, ok?"
[muffled sounds of arrests...]
As you noticed, any normal group would have just released the code and trick. No one wanting to play ball with M$ would pull a stunt like this. No, calling people who mod xboxes, "pirates" was not enough for M$. It seems they have decided to make them look like mad bombers, "Do what I say or the xbox gets it!" What bullshit.
And you have proof of this....where, exactly? You look worse than the so-called "mad bombers", making claims like that without real proof.
wow, so all eight people who run linux on their xbox can put their soldering irons away. And still get blacklisted off XBox Live anyway.
Microsoft must be quivering with fear, really and truly.
I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
If they really have a mod-less hack to allow unsigned code to boot on the xbox the correct thing to do is release it.
There is no way MS will allow Linux or any other OS to boot on xbox as that effectively makes the system open and then MS wouldn't make any money selling certificates.
Besides, MS will now play the terrorist card and you _know_ how well that plays in Washington.
Linux is an Open Standard, much like the Internet, e-mail, etc . . .
." Reality check, this is no club. If there are some people you dislike in this world, get ready 'cause some of them are going to start using Linux. You better just get used to it.
If all types of people use e-mail, doesn't logic dictate that all types of people will also use LINUX? Did spam slowdown the adoption of e-mail in the business world? Why would this kind of activity slowdown the adoption of linux in the business world, then?
People keep on posting as if they belong to some kind of club, "thanks guys, now we all look bad . .
If you want to differentiate yourself from these type of people then form a club, get certified. The AICPA revokes CPA's licenses all the time. Why not form a club like that instead of just posting your complaints here (I might take my own advice and beat you to it).
Sdelat' Ameriku velikoy Snova!
On whether MS has already contracted for the parts. If you're merely buying their in-stock inventory, you're not "costing" them anything. If, however, Linux/Mod people buy enough XBOXs that MS has to make more of them to keep up with demand, only then will it start to cost MS more money.
Funny thing was they said it could be done with a couple drops of solder. Maybe they could claim they did it by accident? And since when is posting a security exploit for a company known for producing security exploits wrong? Macafee and Norton discover and publish Microsoft security exploits all the time. It seems to me that these guys are doing microsoft and the Linux community a favor.
On a side note, the "give us a boot loader or face the consequences" idea was a stroke of genius.
Beautiful stuff.
Won't get anything accomplished.
But beautiful none the less.
This signature has Super Cow Powers
Ok, I'll bite. Yes.
That could be but consider this. Two possibilities can come out of this situation: Microsoft does not release a signed bootloader, or Microsoft does.
If they don't and no exploit is released, no one will take it seriously because it was either: A) a ploy by MS, or B) a bluff by some stupid kid(s).
If an exploit is released..pirated games will overwhelm.
If they do release a bootloader, it's because of one of two reasons: 1) They are the people that initiated the threat as an excuse to release a signed bootloader which will cover their ass on piracy issues (somewhat) and make xBox hackers look like the criminals MS wishes they were , or 2) They believe the threats and want to save face.
To use the method, you have to download the save file to your memory card via a modified USB cable. You can get the file from xboxhacker.net, but I do not know EXACLY how to get the concept to work. In addition, the linux is only a mini Linux, and not that functional. Try getting a mod chip.
1. Sell a bootloader for the amount of money needed to break even...
2. ?????
3. Profit
Pardon my southpark syntax, but it seems a simple solution, even if we didn't have these IP terrorists out there.
This way, they can keep their precious copy proection, and we the end user and have our lin-box too.
But I guess that's just too fucking simple
There is no sanctuary. There is no sanctuary. SHUT UP! There is no shut up. There is no shut up.
"Err, did they do anything actually illegal?"
Yes. They reverse engineered the MS BIOS and are threatening to give away a derivative work based on what they found. This is a copyright violation since they stole their BIOS code. Apple put a PowerPC company out of business in the mid 90's over a similar issue by refusing to release a modified BIOS to boot MacOS on their PowerPC chip. It would have been illegal for the PPC company to make the new BIOS anyway (they knew how), and it's illegal for these hackers to release a derivative work of the MS XBox BIOS.
Vote for Pedro
I got harrassed for the first couple of weeks till I took a chair to the back of some guys head. Then I figured out how the system works. If people think you're a pyscho they pretty much leave you alone. So I praticed staring at people without moving my eyes, whenever anyone got in my face.
Probably wouldn't work in prison though, I fight like a girl.
Completley off-topic but my Karma can't get any worse as it is.
My days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle...
It's used in the c|net article.
What is it with people and the XBOX anyhow? I could buy a PS2 and still get just about the same performance running Linux. Heck, I'm suprised people HAVEN'T gotten a Linux bootloader running yet with all the crap they do to xboxes nowadays. And to tell you the truth, the xbox really isn't that impressive. I boycott it on the grounds it is built by Microsoft. That should be reason enough. The only time I am ever going to buy a console again is if a) it has usefulness and includes a multi-tasking *NIX based OS with a decent interface and a keyboard and mouse (so basically a computer I use on the TV, but without the crappy resolutiuon) and/or 2) if Apple ever enters the market, which of course they will get creamed, and brings with it the style and passion they bring to everything. I could see 2GHz dual G5's in the next console, couldn't everyone else? (A revival of the cube. That would steal the thunder of the gamecube. Which btw- why hasn't anyone done anything to it of high notice on Slashdot. Unless I was off vacationing somewhere, I don't think I have seen any stories...)
"Now there's a look in your eyes, like black holes in the sky"-Pink Floyd
They DID think it out. Wanna know what they thought?
THEY MADE IT A CLOSED SYSTEM! Problem solved.
So who is "hurt" by this move? Only the geeks that have no intention on buying the software anyway.
Plus, as you fail to note, every game console is financed by the games they sell. Not all of them actually take a loss on the hardware, but all would die out completely if not for software sales. So your argument fails on all fronts.
The Xbox wasn't designed for hacking. It was designed to play games. MS' desire to protect their revenue stream from licensing is in direct conflict with people's desire to modify the hardware - but that's just tough. On this issue, I support neither the hackers nor MS - let them settle it amongst themselves. There's no real moral imperative on either side here; it's strictly a case of conflicting interests.
Anyway, how are the other hardware vendors in the gaming market any different or any more honest? Go ask Sony to give you a loader for any code you want - I'd love to hear what they'd tell you.
"There has grown up in the minds of certian groups in this country the notion that, because a man or a corporation has made a profit out of the public for a number of years, the government and the courts are charged with the duty of guaranteeing such profit in the future, even in the face of changing circumstances and contrary public interest. This strange doctrine is not supported by statute nor common law. Neither individuals nor corporations have the right to come into court and ask that the clock of history be stopped, or turned back, for their private benefit."
- Robert Heinlein
Extortion usually involves money or other intangible goods. Nobody commonly reffers to people releasing information about other exploits or vulnerabilities as tring to extort something from the companies in whose product the defect was found. Microsoft has (attempted to?) use technological measures to limit what what we the honest consumer wishes to do with the hardware we purchased. I would go so far as to say if anybody, as rediculous as it may seem, is extorting something, it would be our friends up in Redmond who are more than any other person guilty.
If I wanted to make a Mini-ITX system with a miniature case, a CD-ROM Drive, and so forth, and hook it up to my TV & stereo - that would definitely be a better system, but would cost $500 or more.
Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
http://news.com.com....
They were essentially selling $500 or so worth of PC hardware for $150-$200 and hoping to make up the profits with the dial subscriptions you had to get to use them. When people like myself started modding them with HD's and booting Linux on it there business model nosedived.
granted I did feel bacd about that, but like most of my amoral peers would probably do it again.
My days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle...
I thoroughly despise the fact that these morons are trying to use these means to get a bootloader for linux. What a bunch of pussies, what, don't they know how to solder? I installed a mod chip in my xbox just to run linux, and I know there is know way in hell that microsoft will ever release anything of the likes that they are demanding. I especially dislike that they are giving linux more bad press with asinine behavior like this. The SCO debacle is bad enough.
You just bombed console gaming back to the days of the 3DO! Let me tell you, I'm looking forward to paying $799 for a console... aren't you?
We can talk all day about our rights to modify hardware, which I totally agree that we have, but yet we conveniently ignore MS' rights to protect their business model by any legal means. And, as someone already pointed out, it's not like most people who buy Xboxes for Linux are planning on buying games anyway - so why should they give a shit about you if you're not a paying customer?
If the extortion demand was written on some law office's stationary, then its legal.
/loathes lawyers
The exact same words on any other piece of paper, then its a crime.
You keep using that word... I do not think it means what you think it means...
Discreditable- Harmful to one's reputation; blameworthy
"I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
The same place I have proof the "xbox security expert" is genuine.
This kind of thing is typical M$. It's just another form of astroturf. When you do a thing again and again, you should not be surprised if people remember it.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
I think this is the message they want to get accross, "Linux on xbox==piracy". What crap. The whole issue only concerns me because Microsoft would like to criminalize modification of hardware and software. I'd never by one of those stupid boxes.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Microsoft, hear now and hear well!! Release ALL source code, internal documentation and trade secrets, whether you have the right to do so or not (due to licensing agreements or deals with subcontractors) to the public domain, make sure it is widespread by sending CDs containing the information to every address in the world, a la AOL, and then pay all of your programmers to develop free software until all your money runs out and you go bankrupt, or else... WE WILL TOILET PAPER BILL G'S HOUSE!! WITH PINK TOILET PAPER!! IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT!!Bwaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!
You have 24 hours to respond... You have been warned. (Disclaimer: This post is funny.)
"Shop lifters of the world, unit and take over...." - The Smiths
well maybe not, but it sounded funny at the time
Ave Molech Setting
You think, not only, that
1) Microsoft has a 'reputation' that would be harmed by this group releasing a security exploit of one of their products,
but also that
2) Microsoft's release of a signed boot-loader for Linux would benefit anyone but themselves?
These people already have the hack. They don't need a signed boot-loader. If anything, it is a friendly gesture to encourage Microsoft to get off of their DRM-high-horse and release a solution that would support Linux but not the game pirates. It is not blackmail.
"I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
>Who the hell cares if the X-Box runs Linux? It's got some really fun games on it, isn't that enough?
Not really.
But you are missing the whole point entirely, as many others here have. Let's compare:
XBOX: 3D acceleration, good TV out, good audio out, hard drive, controller, ethernet, memory, DVD/CD drive. $200.
PC:
- Hard drive: $50.
- Motherboard with quality built in sound: $100.
- Case with power supply: $30.
- Medium-High end 3d accelerator with TV out: $250.
- Memory: $20.
- Low end CPU with fan: $60.
- Game controller: $40.
- DVD/CD: $40.
- Ethernet: $10.
Total: $600.
But sure, maybe you're right. Maybe people running linux have so much money, $400 means nothing and the only reason they want the XBOX is to spite microsoft.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
What the FUCK does being a communist have to do with anything?
I'm a very hard democratic socialist (one step away from communism) and I agree 100% that Microsoft has every right and responsibility to protect their investment fairly. On this occasion, they don't deserve to be held hostage by a bunch of blackmailers.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
Thanks for the info, it was a great post. Now I have more of a clue how the whole xBox threat makes sense.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
In democratic(?) russia Adobe blackmaids hackers.
Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
shooting the gun isn't illegal, killing another person is. Bad metaphor again. You can print up as much money as you like, but USING counterfeit bills is illegal. By using I mean anything like passing them off as real.
-- Having a Creationist Museum is like having an Atheist place of worship
So two guys make a discovery. They immediatly contact the company to whom it concerns who simply ignores them. After repeatedly trying to contact them directly and getting no answer, they go through a different channel. They contact a news company and tell them what happened: they made a discovery that the company will want to keep hidden, and are offering to keep it a secret if the company takes the matter into its own hands. If the company refuses to even acknowledge them, they are just going to go ahead and not keep it a secret anymore. They are being "nice". They could've just posted the code/directions on the internet, instead they are making great efforts to reduce the stress on Microsoft.
What does slashdot do? HEADLINE: LINUXLOSERS TRY TO BLACKMAIL MICROSOFT. With the subtitle "Great way to end up in jail."
Great way to get people to read the story, but totally dishonest.
-- "Man is born free, and everywhere he is in chains." Jean Jacques Rousseau
ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
Why is it so important to run Linux on the Xbox? I sort of understand the thrill geeks get from this, but what makes it worth giving away a $100,000 prize?
Does this further the OSS movement someway or is it just an "in your face" gesture to Microsoft?
And I'm not trolling. This is a serious question.
1) Release a boot loader, lose money on X-box, promote linux.
2) Don't release boot loader, be in the public's eye about not even securing a gaming system, lose more money because of xbox sales and stolen games, don't promote linux as much.
The rock and the hardplace. That's exactly where Bill is. Kinda feel sorrry for him.
Stop the Slashdot effect! Don't read the articles!
I doubt they put it that way. Honestly what is wrong with having found a hole in an existing product that lets you do what you're trying to do.. but you realize it'd damage the company making the product if you used that hole.. so you offer not to if they'll just give you the ability to do what you originally wanted to do?
If Microsoft won't bargain than their loss.. I'd go ahead and use the exploit they've found. Like the whole CSS thing they may crucify the hackers (making heroes of them) but they'll never put the genie back in the lamp.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
No. Publisizing an exploit isn't illegal. If it is, sue Microsoft for putting up their knowledge base. No, using an exploit is what gets people in trouble. Circumventing some form of copy protection is what gets people in trouble. No, you know what, go check out Symantec or some other security site. It's brimming with info, because people need to know.
Stop the Slashdot effect! Don't read the articles!
Hmm... a bit of a pause there. Respecting others' intellectual property mah ass!
Founder of Mirror Moon - Tsukihime Game Trans
IANAL, but if I recall correctly, the DMCA contains an exception for interoperability. That is, if your exploit is used only to run linux, then it should fall under this clause.
In the VCR days the court found that even though there were illegal uses, that there was a substantial legal use made them legal. I would think (but I can't argue in court and I don't think the courts always make sense) that you could extend this to say that because this exploit has the use of allowing linux, it is legal under the interoperability clause.
Where you been? The bubble got burst. People no longer consider a "brand" something that you can make money with even though it doesn't mean anything.
You know, you deal coke and you go to a resort prison for two years.
Then how can McDonald's employees deal Coke and not go to prison?
Will I retire or break 10K?
I don't exactly know about Australian law, but it could very well be the geeks in question are playing on this angle: "If you don't cooperate with us, we will do it ourselves legally, and you will have no control over it whatsoever. The proof is in the pudding."
...of a story i read. A developer on, Age of Empires i think it was, told how some guy had emailed him and demanded that he make a utility program for the game (unpack archives, convert graphics, something like that) and the developer told him to buzz off. Two weeks later the guy sendt the developer a program which did what he had originally asked him to make. He had just reversed engineered it.
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
Why bother those studs at Microsoft! Why do they even matter? If you have a modfree loader, then just release the damn thing. Hell, setup a software clean room and release it legal. If Phoenix could do it with the ole BIOS, it could be done here.
That is the difference between the problem-solving nature of a true hacker and the stupid ego of these big children.
Perhaps MS could make money by *selling* such a bootloader..... ;-)
For those that think prison rape is something to laugh about, read this:
l
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/prison/report.htm
While irreverent humor certainly has its place, I was horrified after reading this report.
Let's start this by stating that I am not pro-Microsoft. In fact, I dislike Microsoft software very much (unfortunately I have to use VS.NET at work). I've been trying out (not double-booting, by the way) a butt-load of Linux distros since 98, and I used Debian a helluva lot (first *NIX OS I ever tried). I have been using OpenBSD since last year (those who hate MS use Linux, those who love UNIX use *BSD) and I'm not switching anymore.
After having said all this, I'd like to know what's up with the double standards?
SCO tries to take the whole Linux community hostage, everybody goes apeshit (I'm with you Linux people on that one). But when a couple of Linux advocates try to take the Xbox hostage, it's all fine and dandy. Why is this?
If you don't like what MS has done with their platform (it might be your hardware, but it's their platform) then don't buy it. I don't like the Xbox, so I haven't bought one. Why buy it if you're just going to bitch and moan about it all day long?
If you dislike their products so much, vote with your fucking money, and put it elsewhere, no sense going "M$ is teh sux" and then run into Egghead (or wherever the fuck you go) and spending your ass off lining M$ pockets.
By the way, the Xbox hardware sucks, and you'd be better off getting Linux running on an NES...
No, seriously, I just come here for the articles.
Because my neighboor owns an x-box. There is no way he could/would mod-chip it. However, if there was something he could download from the net and burn on a CD-R, he'd probably do it.
A hardware mod is something that MS knows will happen, but probably in a very small number of the sold boxes. A software hack that the average joe could use - well, then it'd get more widespread
Essential to blackmail is the transfer of valuable assets from the blackmailee to the blackmailer. "Give me money or I'll tell" is blackmail. "You tell or I'll tell" is not.
How is "you tell" not equivalent to "give me money"? Trade secrets such as a signed xbe are "things of value".
Will I retire or break 10K?
And the danish minister of culture(Brian Mikkelsen, which is responsible for the copyright business in denmark) has said that the Infosec will never disallow the use of open source software to make use of closed technologies!
:)
Its still illegal according to the law - but trust me - the danish goverment would make it ok somehow!
Currently Microsoft is selling the X-Box for a huge loss. Are you willing to pay enough to make that loss a profit? If Linux users would be willing to pay $100 for a Linux loader Microsoft might do it.
Unfortunately, most modders are just looking to get a Linux box cheap. That Linux loader might become the most pirated copy of software ever. And where does that leave Microsoft? Footing the bill for a huge loss on the X-Box.
When's the last time Nintendo released a system that could officially support Linux? When's the last time Nintendo released a console that used a common storage method like CD roms?
What's that? Never? So why isn't Slashdot bitching about that constantly?
Apparently hackers are so pathetic these days they have to force the system to cater to them rather than them catering to the system. But of course, this only applies to MS. Standards vary based on popularity of the company.
"I can't code in the XBox's language so I'm going to whine to MS until the XBox understands my language."
Nobody is required to make products "user servicable." Nobody is required to make it easy or even possible.
What's funny is that I can just see Linux zealots repeatedly smashing their faces on the glass trying to get to the food below.
"It's so close! The XBox is just a PC, if I could only get past this one thing!"
Give it up.
Ben
Work Safe Porn
No, actually, the problem is, they HAVE gotten "past this one thing", but MS and other companies have bought the politicians, and they've made it illegal to do something that should be none of their buisness.
People are complaining because laws have been passed that are equivilant to saying it's illegal to drive on non-toll roads (and as such also banning off-roading).
I know when I buy a FORD truck, I damn well expect to be able to drive it on any of my property, not just on FORD approved roads.
Given that MS looses money on every sale of an X-Box when the consumer doesn't also bu a few games, they obviously don't want people to buy one and boot a free Linux OS on it and never buy any games. But what if MS releases a version of Linux on a live cd a la Knoppix, Gentoo, or Slackware? Assuming they charge around $200 for it I'm sure a few people would bite. $400 total for a great small-form factor machine with 5.1 sound and tv-out isn't too bad, especially if the "MS linux distro" includes music and video streaming software.
Slackware, what else when it must be secure, stable, and easy?
I think m$ should rape the hackers steal/take over the project entirely (they could legaly do this "raping" if they were smart about it) package it with a keyboard and mouse few xtra usb adapters sell it for say 150 dollars and advertise the FUCKING PISS OUT OF IT. Do you have any idea how many fools would purchace this when they see a 30 second TV add spot talking about turning your 200 dollar xbox into half way decent personal computer? OMFG it would be a wildfire that would help M$ corner the console market within 9 months and shit all over sony at the same time. People who dont have computers would jump on this as well and I would imagine most would even buy a few xbox games to boot, i bet this is what M$ fears (all xbox no games). But why would M$ do linux and not windows?
They wouldnt and what I said above is just a dream even so. If they wanted the xbox to be sold as a personal computer it would have been. M$ will never do this because not only will it be detering various other ms related pc sales, it will give linux more national attention, which is why even if this did go through mainstream it would NOT ever be linux. Now everyone might want to reply to the 1st part saying "well ya know M$ would never do this it would be like a slap in the face from the linux world" Honestly though its the other way around, the product would sell like hotcakes if advertised right and would actually be a pimp slap in the face to the linux peeps from the pimp hand of M$ mocking them. But once again M$ would never give linux more national media attention even if they had a time bomb strapped to bill gates kid. Not that im dissing linux or anything I dual boot and use both operating systems for the strong points they put out.
Think about it one more time tho, if this disc were to be signed mass produced and has a 2 billion advertising scheme behind it they would put the xbox in so many more homes it would not even be funny. Just think about it for a few seconds.
Old dude speedbump took the words right out of my mouth and this post when he said...
"The single most interesting reason for me is the ability to play *any* media using this single console. DVDs, VCDs, CDs, Streamed content, networked files, internet radio, flash, movie trailers...Anything I can play using a standard PC, *plus* i already have it connected into my system to play "Halo ect. I can play all my old favorites, using various emulators...pacman, galaga etc..a one time investment of 10 minutes it's not even a *stretch* for me to make the choice."
He forgot to mention adding a 120 gig hdd but thats ok =)
This is why I chose to mod my xbox, a allaround decent system capable of more than playing xbox games. Hell I have personaly sold a good 20 xbox consoles from wowing my peeps alone and you bet your ass they buy games so dont give me the people who mod xboxs wont buy games bull. Not all of your hackers or end users even are in for piracy that just pertains to lame ass kids or homeless people. I could give a rats ass about piracy but will honestly admit I HAVE warez out the xbox games I cant play in the US, such as imports like soul calibur 2. I think it has been 2 games in total. I have spent close to 800 dollars on xbox games so if I did happen to leech a few I cant buy big deal.... hey I will be honest flame if you must.
Well im rather tired and the beer is calling me. Keep in mind I have been comming here for a little over 3 years and signed up for the 1st time a week or 2 ago and made my 1st post today. I might be posting here more often who knows.
First off, this group of "xbox security researchers" is annonymous and so is their so called method for getting to linux to run on the xbox. For all we know, they could be threatining Microsoft with the 007/Mechassualt save game exploit, and no where in the article does it deny this (www.xbox-scene.com failed to note this, and assumes that it is a "new" exploit"). I've been following the scene at xbox-scene.com and and xboxhacker.net for some time now, and the most recent developments in the past month have been over getting a COPIED XBOX Live enabled game (MS's version of battle.net for the xbox) to run from a hard drive, without a modchip. The current protection scheme MS has used for xbox live detects if you have a mod chip running and bans you if you try to log onto live. With the recent developments of the 007/Mechassualt exploit, people are just now considering that it maybe possible to run a copied version of a game through the 007 exploit(without a mod chip), and therefore circumvent the current xbox live/mod chip protection, which only checks if you have a mod chip running. With in the past couple weeks, few people have made claims to running copied games on live, but little or no evidence has been presented yet. My question is, why would you think that the 007 exploit is not what this group is trying to blackmail MS with? It's taken the community this long too barely develop on the 007 exploit, which is the only known method for getting unsigned xbe files(xbe are like the exe's of an xbox) to run on an unmodded xbox. From the view of one that has followed the xbox modding/hacking scene for some time, i find it hard to believe that these "xbox security researcher's" methods are no different then clearly known methods that have been developing in the scene for some time now. The hint of desperation on asking microsoft to write a signed xbe to run linux just makes me believe that this is some sad attempt to bluff and blackmail MS, which you probably will end up in prison for.
The rock and the hardplace. That's exactly where Bill is. Kinda feel sorrry for him.
I don't.
You make the mistake of thinking you can educate the fundamental stupidity out of people. You can't.
The "hackers" would prefer a legally signed bootloader, since it would not have the side effect of allowing pirated games to run on the Xbox.
It's not that simple. A boot-loader can likely load anything -- not necessarily Linux. So suppose a boot-loader were available, and someone figured out a way to load a pirated game with it. Now people can pirate said game with no hardware mods at all.
At least with the exploit, some hardware modding is required, which most users -- even users who frequently pirate software/games -- won't bother with.
So really neither option is much better than the other. MS likely won't even justify this with a response.
NGWave - Fast Sound Editor for Windows
1. Let people install linux on their hardware legally so that they won't make money on the console through game purchases 2. Let people do it illegally so they can have people fined/imprisoned when they install Linux.
What other software besides Linux are people going to use, afterall? Either way it's going to be Linux on X-Box, it's just a question of whether Microsoft wants to make it legal or not. So I don't understand the bonus.
Btw, your signature has little pursuasive content.
So I guess we'll see once M$ inevitably says "go to hell"....message delivered courtesy of their army of lawyers.....if this hack ends up on the web. If not, it probably PR.
Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
1.Stage blackmail threat
2.asses public reaction
3A.if public likes it, fight the 'threat' and have the blackmailers release the code
3B.if public doesn't like it, release official method of putting linux on xbox
4.Get free development for Xbox
5.PROFIT!!!
Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
Er... My box, my choice of OS. "Illegal" don't enter into it -- not for the end user modding the system, at any rate. Whether this is the case for those releasing the exploit is another story entirely.
Frankly, I'm looking forward to this -- I have some interesting ideas I'd like to play with, and they require being able to run on an unmodded Xbox to be worth the trouble (nothing that hasn't been done before; it's just that an Xbox running Linux is probably the cheapest way to do it). I'm skeptical, mind you, so I'll wait until the extortionists call Microsoft's bluff before I believe it, but the idea has a lot of potential.
I'm not too sure if anybody already mentioned this, but just running Linux in general on the Xbox would be a violation of the EULA. The catch is that it would be legal only if MS licenced it. I know that's not the whole point of this fiasco, but I do know that the whole idea of the ``Project B'' of Xbox-Linux is a violation, under this clause.
Also, for all of you saying, ``It's my hardware, I'll do what I want with it,'' I'm pretty sure I read once in the EULA that you don't actually own the console. The idea is that Microsoft is ``lending'' you the use of their hardware. I'm not sure if it was the Xbox, but I'm fairly sure that Microsoft would throw that at you if you tried to use that against them in some sort of a court.
Ah, yes, here it is. Section G, clause 1:
The software included in the Xbox Product is licensed to you, not sold. You are licensed to use such software only in your Xbox Product and you may not reverse engineer it, except as expressly permitted by applicable law notwithstanding this limitation.
MS's lawyers really thought of everything...
The difference is, over the life of the console as the manufacturing process improves, consoles generally eventually turn a profit. The GameCube, for example, while having a lower price point than the XBox, is already turning a profit while the XBox is not, despite the consoles being released at the same time. Yes, all consoles lose money... at first. It's the fact that MS's losses on each XBox are unusually long and sustained in comparison.
So maybe I misunderstand as I said. Will using the exploit if it's released be illegal or not? Violation of DMCA?
Who's to say that M$ won't just patch or upgrade the dashboard via Xbox live or via new games. Hence Unreal Tournament being the first game that "upgraded" your dash.
And why, exactly, is it wrong to buy an Xbox and mod it so you can do whatever you want with it? Yes, what these people are doing does, in some sense, qualify as extortion -- I'd rather see them just release the exploit and watch Microsoft go down in flames the way the much-less-deserving Dreamcast did. That said...
Get this through your skull. The system is a Celeron 733 with an enhanced nForce Northbridge. Its controller bus is USB-based, electrically compatible except for an easily-ignored power line for the rumble pack in the controller. Its software is a drastically cut-down Win2K kernel. It is in every meaningful respect a PC except for the lack of a keyboard, and it doesn't take a mod chip to prove it.
It is indeed a case of "my hardware, I should be able to do what I want with it." While what these anonymous folk are doing is rather shady, it does make sense. I rather hope they don't get caught...
IANAL (but who is around here?), but I think as long as it doesn't involve hacking BIOS code it shouldn't be. If there's a clean-room BIOS involved, in theory there's no case. The EULA only covers the software -- they couldn't license the hardware, simply because it doesn't work that way.
Now whether it violates the DMCA is another story entirely...
Well, since Microsoft sells them at a loss, maybe somebody wants to build a cheap Beowulf cluster with thousands of nodes. :-)
Laissez lire, et laissez danser; ces deux amusements ne feront jamais de mal au monde. - Voltaire
AFAIK blackmail's quite legal as long as one doesn't break the law to commit blackmail.
Afterall what do you think plea-bargaining is - "if you don't plead-out on this lesser charge we'll prosecute you with every charge we think will get past a Committal hearing"
Or look at the way cops will drop charges if you're willing to snitch.
I reserve the right to be wrong.
The EU law makes a clear exception for interoperability issues. If the goal is to make the X-Box interoperable with Linux, EU laws allow it.
I wonder how many seconds they have hesitated:
- Release the Linux signed bootlader, see people running legally any software on the Xbox, including but not only pirated games, see the stock fall 5% after the press release and the ZDNet comments "MS switches to Linux for the XBox".
OR
- Not release the bootlader, hope the blackmailer is not bluffing (30% chances), see the exploit in the wild, put the guy in jail for DMCA violation (1), blackmail (2), copyright infringement (3), violation of trade secrets (4) and terrorism (5), deny that the hack works (Wall Street won't never hear of it this way), see it goes mainstream, lawyer-bomb any Linux distribution with an XBox version, suppress the exploit from next XBoxes or make it fry the box (6).
Yes, I'm sure they don't sleep anymore...
(1) Don't care if the blackmailers are not American. It did not protect Johanssen from Norway.
(2) Some say this is not strictly speaking blackmail. I wouldn't argue that with the lawyers who convinced the DOJ that MS was not a monopoly. Reason, law and justice lights before Microsoft.
(3) Again, see Johanssen
(4) MS technology is so complex that a single hacker can't have found the exploits without the source code, can he ? SCO would agree.
(5) Because these XBoxes could be used to build Beowulf superclusters to build atomic weapons!!!! In addition, the "terrorist" won't see a lawyer before long, which make the case easier for MS and saves legal costs.
(6) This will be in the EULA, page 856. If you complain, the hotline threatens to call the police (90% of the people will use the loader to pirate games anyway) but will settle if you buy another XBox.
Christophe (Don't hesitate to point out my spelling and grammar mistakes, I want to learn - Thanks).
It's Xbox, not XBOX, XBor X-box or anything else.
I'm on a mission to piss all Slashdot readers off:
.NET project, now THAT's a useful pursuit.
1. The XBOX ISN'T just hardware. It's software too. It's a free world, if you don't like MS policies about hacking XBOX, don't buy one.
2. If you're good with a soldering iron and you want a cheap Linux box, then you're probably smart enough to buy cheap parts at ComputerGeeks.com and build one yourself.
3. GET A FRIGGIN' LIFE!!! WHO THE F. CARES IF XBOX RUNS LINUX! Put your efforts into something useful for a change! You're all smart folks -- figure out a way to stop terrorism, or at least stop John Ashcroft!
If you hate MS that much, put your efforts into the Open Source
At no point was there any kind of click-through or shrink-wrap license when I got my Xbox - it really *is* my hardware. Even with the best lawyers in the world, I don't think Microsoft would be able to convince a court that everybody who owns an Xbox doesn't actually own it I mean, where would the madness end? Ford could start insisting that it was actually just lending out all its motor cars...
...but trust me - the danish goverment would make it ok somehow! :)
What live the longest? A politicians "word" or a law?
Looks like they are bluffing. Someone (Michael Robertson?) may be getting impatient.
...would be to try to sue IBM for 3 billion dollars for IP violations.
Oh, er...
Why doesn't the gene pool have a life guard?
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
Why do these people think that Microsoft owes them anything? Yes, Microsoft sees X-Box hackers as a problem. Like a gnat flying around your soup. They've got bigger and better things to worry about.
And asking Microsoft to make it so people can use linux on their XBox is like asking Nintendo to make it so we can play Playstation games on the GameCube. It's just not going to happen.
The millions of fast food restaurants owned by PepsiCo
I thought PepsiCo had spun its restaurants into Tricon Global Restaurants, which became Yum! Brands.
Will I retire or break 10K?
WHy not instead of asking for MS to sign a bootloader doesn't someone figure out how to replace the bios of the XBOX entirely and make everything open source with some sort of gpl or bsd licence?
that way everyone could sign their own bootloader, or better yet- not need a signed bootloader because the bios would just accept anything.
anyone thought of this?
If they already have the binary, MSFT would be a bit daft to release a signed version of that binary. If you have a plaintext and known equivalent ciphertext, IIRC it's trivial to extract the key. MSFT might as well release their key and call it a wash.
The paren't wasn't moddeup up +5, Funny???!?
INCONCEIVABLE!
If you have a plaintext and known equivalent ciphertext, IIRC it's trivial to extract the key.
Then you recall wrong. That's only true for an XOR cipher. Known plaintext attacks are easier than straight cracking, but it's still very hard.
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
No offence but the PS2 is hardly a brilliant feat of engineering. Its cheap and nasty like most of Sony's products nowadays.
It runs linux, has a bootloader, and supported hardware to do so. They've clustered with it. All the consoles are made cheap and dirty in either Taiwan or Mexico. 'Nuff said.
"Now there's a look in your eyes, like black holes in the sky"-Pink Floyd
Lets see, I can buy a matrix modchip (which is solderless) for say $50.00. this enables me "after i program the bios in it" to run linux, any app i so choose, a new dashboard etc.. i personally have 2 xbox consoles running modchips. ill probbably buy another one eventually to test the new chameleon solderless chip. so why then would ms release a loader if i can do this allready? it took me 2 minutes to program the bios 15 seconds to boot the evox cd and get a ftp on my network up on with my xbox. and say 5 minutes to ftp about 4 gigs of music/apps. why? its easier ill bet to do it my way. i think its a M$ ploy to get people to buy more systems. but thats just my humble opinion.
I dunno.... I guess you have to go with whatever works for you. But personally, I find a still better solutuon for something small and stackable, yet cheap, is to buy the "thin client" machines made by Netier (now Wyse) called WinTerms. Units like these use a standard Micro ITX type motherboard and usually have a reasonably fast processor (233Mhz in many cases), often have 128MB of RAM in them by default, as well as some having a laptop-type CD-ROM drive and 3.5" floppy in them. They're whisper quiet since they have no big power supplies. (They use an AC adapter more like what a laptop has, with a round plug with 4 pins that plugs into the back of them.) You can mount a laptop IDE hard drive in them, turn off the booting from flash disk, and it's a full-featured PC. If you want, you can even get creative and use the "disk on chip" flash as a way to make Linux boot from firmware.
I often see the Netier XL2000 and XL1000 type thin clients selling for as little as $35 or so each on eBay, and they don't get bid on very often. (I guess most folks think they're useless except as Citrix "dumb terminals".)
I think people concerned with protecting personal liberty and the free market coming up with a law that is viewed as such a challenge to personal freedom or even the ability for some people to do business, is in fact, ironic. Literally. Ironic. You may disagree either anonymously or not... it is a free country. Well the one I'm sitting in is free anyway.
And going back to the word misuse topic for a second, how about people saying "literally" all the time. "I was literally tearing my own head off!" I guess it just doesn't sound as good to say, "I was figuratively flying down the highway."
FingerDemon
"Contrarily the lookaside buffer might not be the panacea... "
Most of the poeple here just seem to want a cheap media player. So why doesn't microsoft release one of those (if possible).
And while I'm at it, they now own sega right? Why don't they make a dreamcast emulator or something.
Well, that's kind of interesting; So you're saying you'd basically rework the XBox into a small, quiet PC, and save money on the cheapest PC currently available *new*, i.e. a new XBox is cheaper than the cheapest new PC available. But you can buy older PCs used for much less than an XBox. I guess my real problem with it is, how would you connect peripherals? How would you hook it up to the TV and stereo, as you mentioned? Honest question -- and I wasn't trying to troll, I honestly didn't get the attraction. But if you *can* hook up peripherals and A/V gear, I might be able to see the point...
;)
I know people have said you can still play XBox games with a modded box, and that you can hook up peripherals to it, etc, but how well does that really work in your opinion? I've never tried it, and I'm loath to damage my existing XBox, so I have no way of knowing personally. I'm not sure I trust the thing to continue working properly after modifications...
Seriously -- I'm asking. Not trolling.
Farewell! It's been a fine buncha years!
Ah. Ahem. Well, then.
That's a pretty strong point I guess. Although, you can get an older laptop on Ebay for like, a hundred bucks, which was MY point. Or, if you're a weirdo like me, you can hunt around for an old SPARC server or something similar in the same price range. Sometimes, Solaris is included, depends on the auction. If you only consider *new* gear, you limit yourself to a more expensive range of equipment than you would if you were willing to look at used and off-lease stuff. But, still -- Ok, I get your point.
Having said that, how well do peripherals hook up to an XBox? I've never tried to hook anything up to it, so I'm not sure off the top of my head whether it even offers USB, but since you seem to have tried modding an XBox, how well does it accept peripherals? And, once you modded it, did it still play XBox games? I know you wouldn't be able to use XBox Live with a modded box; Microsoft started shutting them out of the service a while back. But, what about normal games? How well do they work?
Honest questions. I'm finding this topic kind of interesting. And, honest -- I'm not trolling. I'm genuinely interested.
Farewell! It's been a fine buncha years!
I know it's considered bad form to reply to my own message, but I feel I have the right to address my unfairly being called a "troll" by the moderators.
First of all, this is not a troll. A troll is placed in order to start a pointless argument. I posted an honest appraisal of my opinion about this matter, therefore, my post is not a troll. Moderators can CALL it a troll because they're going to automatically attack anyone who even remotely appears to side with Microsoft -- this is standard Slashdot operating procedure. However, THIS POST WAS NOT A TROLL.
Second of all, I think I've been extremely reasonable. I listened to two reasonable posts from people who DIDN'T call me a troll, and I considered their points in a most reasonable way. In return, I posted a simple question in reply: Basically, if people are modding the XBox just so they can have a cheap PC, and not in an attempt to "stick it to Microsoft", or do some other strange nefarious thing (like cheating on XBox Live games, for instance), how does the XBox perform essential PC-type activities like interacting with peripherals and A/V gear? If the XBox is really a good, cheap PC substitute, how does it perform in this role? I didn't get any responses (at least, not yet) so I'm assuming that the XBox DOESN'T perform well in this role at all.
I think it's fair to assume that the XBox is NOT a suitable PC substitute, so I think that based on this assumption we can assume that the people modding the XBox are doing so for some other reason. Reasons that come to MY mind are:
* Sticking it to Microsoft;
* Creating a setup for building bootlegs of XBox games, or perhaps altering XBox games or reverse-engineering them;
* Being able to go onto XBox Live and cheat, which is much more difficult with a non-modded XBox, and which is almost certainly why modded XBoxes are not permitted anymore on XBox Live;
* just for the irony, and to see if it'll work (i.e. just a hobbyist thing).
Again, as I said, if you want a cheap Linux box, you can always go to Ebay and pick up a cheapo older laptop or something. It'll work better than an XBox, it'll work with more peripherals, and it'll be able to accept a normal install. There's no real reason to screw up a perfectly good XBox by modding it. Unless someone can demonstrate that a modded XBox can do everything a cheap older computer can do, this is going to stay my opinion.
You can call me names, you can call me a troll, but it doesn't make it true. You can be as pissed off at me as you want, because I'm not *agreeing* with you, but it doesn't make me a troll. And, as long as I have breath, I'm going to call 'em as I see 'em.
Farewell! It's been a fine buncha years!
>Having said that, how well do peripherals hook up to an XBox? I've never tried to hook anything up to it, so I'm not sure off the top of my head whether it even offers USB, but since you seem to have tried modding an XBox, how well does it accept peripherals?
;-)
I've not tried peripherals, but all the joystick ports are (non-standard) USB. This cable should allow you to interface your devices. It seems, according to sourceforge, that all linux supported USB devices will work inside linux, but not the X-Box games (obviously).
>And, once you modded it, did it still play XBox games?
Yep! And 100% off the hard drive also without the original disc (a big bonus if you have kids that think DVDs are indestructible).
>I know you wouldn't be able to use XBox Live with a modded box; Microsoft started shutting them out of the service a while back
They have, but many of the more advanced chips let you turn off the mod chip. Of course then you need the original DVD, but if you're all legal, that's not too big of a a deal.
X-BOX live should be fine if the chip is turned off -- the chip only takes control of the BIOS, nothing more (IIRC). I'd read more on this before trusting my advice, though, since I only mod the boxes, I actually don't own an X-BOX (yet), so it beats me if this works as advertised.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
Too funny. I get marked TROLL for stating the FACTS on how Microsoft is a theifing back-stabbing rip-off of a company.
I get it...
I also get how much money I'm saving NOT using Windows anymore. Both from the IT end and from a business owner's perspective.
Moderate THAT
Ok, so you mentioned that with a cable from Lik Sang you can use the Joystick port as a USB port and use USB peripherals under Linux. That's not bad if you're going to use the XBox as a PC. BUT, you also said (in response to my question about it being able to play XBox games):
"Yep! And 100% off the hard drive also without the original disc (a big bonus if you have kids that think DVDs are indestructible)..."
So you're saying that running Linux on an XBox lets you dump the games to the hard drive and run them without their DVD? See, that ruins it for me. What's going to stop people from pirating the hell out of games this way? Once they're on the hard drive, and runnable under Linux, they can be archived and passed around. That just isn't right.
This sort of thing could easily ruin the console by wrecking the market for games. I'd really hate to see that happen.
I think I can see now what people want a modded XBox for. I don't want any part of it.
Farewell! It's been a fine buncha years!
>So you're saying that running Linux on an XBox lets you dump the games to the hard drive and run them without their DVD?
Yup.
>See, that ruins it for me. What's going to stop people from pirating the hell out of games this way?
Morality? >:-D
>This sort of thing could easily ruin the console by wrecking the market for games. I'd really hate to see that happen.
Well, if it was going to do it, it'd happen by now. Apart from the GameCube, I can't think of a single system which wasn't heavily pirated. And I'm going all the way back to the original 8-bit NES, which did a bomb, despite how many clones were made of the system itself, and all the 1000-in-1 cartridges...
In fact, most systems that are pirated seem to enjoy increased popularity and sales as a result. Strange, but from what I can see, the market stays pretty faithful to that in most respects. Just look in your store and see how many more PS2 and X-BOX games are available against gamecube (the only popular "unmoddable" system, unless I get more info) games, even though the gamecube is cheaper, and in some respects, superior!
The don't have a large stock simply because they don't sell -- they have the large stock to supply demand.
However, that all being said, I only install and sell modchips for the purposes of running linux and making personal backups of your own games.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
Oh, I believe that you're not pirating; I didn't mean my post to sound like an accusation. All I'm saying is that it makes piracy not only possible, but not even particularly difficult, which is a Bad Thing. I think that even if your motive is to help people back up their games, the end result is that at least some will pirate them and you will have no control over that. So in a way, by providing the tool, you're facilitating the activity, even though you're not trying to. See what I mean?
And, it's different from a manufacturer producing a CD-R drive, because the CD-R drive wasn't built for the purpose of ripping game copies. A CD-R drive is designed for backups and data -- its primary purpose is legitimate. In contrast, an XBox's primary purpose is gaming, with built-in copy protections for the games. When you MOD an XBox, you're removing its primary purpose and replacing it with your own (whatever that may be). It's not the same.
I don't think that "morality" is going to make much of an impression on XBox modders who feel like pirating a few games. Otherwise, people wouldn't have pirated games in the past, either -- and software has been pirated all the way back to the MITS Altair, ok? It's a big problem in the industry. People don't consider a game, or a piece of software, to be a real thing; they don't think they're doing anything wrong when they copy it and pass it around. So it's going to happen, and the XBox mods are going to facilitate it. Doesn't that bother you? I'd much rather see the XBox be successful, and have people buy the games legitimately. And, I don't like Microsoft either, but I have to admit they've built a nice console here. I'd like to see it succeed.
People say they just want to use the XBox as a PC. Maybe for some people (yourself included) that's true. But, I suspect that for most XBox modders, that whole "rip, mix, burn" thing is just too tasty to ignore. It's a bad idea, IMHO.
Farewell! It's been a fine buncha years!
Blackmail in and of itself isn't illegal, it's done all the time, hell the government does daily.
Breaking Microsoft's bootloader signing isn't illegal either. It's perfectly legal to bypass mechanisms that are not covered under the DMCA. And ONLY copyprotection software is covered under the DMCA.
Xbox signing is an attempt by microsoft to keep anybody from writing programs for the computer they produce and running it without their permission... there aren't any laws that allow or disallow this. Except perhaps monopoly laws since they have a monopoly on the digital signing for xbox computers?
And will cost you about the same as a new top of the line pc if you buy the PS/2 and linux kit. Take about the same amount of time to get running from parts.
My prices consider the ancient art of put the fucking thing together yourself you lazy son of a bitch!