Slashdot Mirror
Solving a Wiring Mess?
FueledByRamen asks: "While trying to run a new power line for a large Sun mass-storage cabinet (located nowhere near a 220 outlet of course), I had the misfortune of needing to pop the lid on my main power distribution panel (previously opened in the late 80s). The whole thing is a rats nest and probably a fire hazard - old-style wiring with broken-down cloth/plastic insulation strewn everywhere, and the utility's incoming power cables have some sort of junction in them that's the size of a 1-liter bottle (on each wire) and is covered in layers of electrical tape. Even (gently) putting the panel back on jiggled something important, and there was a nasty cracking noise and half the breakers blew (all breakers in one of the 2 columns). I've worked with mains voltage in the past (wiring new rooms, installing lighting), but nothing on this scale, both in terms of complexity and potential for death. How do you industrious Slashdot readers go about fixing a mess like this (on a tight budget, no less) without getting a mains-induced glimpse at the great beyond?"
Good god man, leave that mess alone and hire a professional that knows what they are doing. Don't ever put your life in the hands of Slashdot; are you utterly insane?
Maybe it's just me, but some things are worth paying for. I prefer juice in my stomach, not coursing through my entire body...
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
Close the door, plug in your stuff and walk away. Very slowly.
And the Gordian Knot: Just hack it through cleanly!
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
Hire an electrician.
pay someone who does it for a living, not a hobby. if they die, you dont have to worry. Its not something to do to save money... something are worth paying for.
... Hire CowboyNeal of course!!!
---
The trouble with doing something right the first time is that nobody appreciates how difficult it was.
sPh
Well, why not use wireless electicity distribution? There even is a RFC for it: 3252 :)
--
If code was hard to write, it should be hard to read
1. Let the thing catch fire
2. ??? (Collect insurance)
3. Profit!!
That's the kind of job they get to do.
Do you have insurance?
Just go down to your friendly appliance store and get a can of "Cable-B-Gone" (tm)
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
I'd use my tongue as a voltimeter. If i***BBBBZZZZZUUUHHHHHAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!***
...over would you like to be dead.
Dead, deader, deadest. Most dead.
Dead.
Hire someone.
Yeah not the favorite option. Not the most time saving option. However, it is the safe option. Cut the damn power and start it from scratch. If you take it all apart and rewire the whole rig, then use some kind of an electric safe adhesive to keep all the cords arranged in a less-likely-to-tangle way, you'll never, ever run into this problem.
If I were you, I'd track down the original guy who wired it all and ask him what his damn problem was for creating such a mess.
You're right, I wouldn't steal a car. But if it were possible, I sure as hell would download one!
Hire a professional electrition.
Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?
Are you sure YOU weren't the cause of the blackout of 2003?
Cowboy Neal High Voltage Electrical Service.....
Seriously Call someone, saving a couple of grand is'nt worth it if you end up dead in the process.
So Long and Thanks for all the Fish.
You've got to be kidding right?
My god, I expected this to be signed "a recently unemployed power grid manager in Ohio"...
HIRE A PROFESSIONAL
If you have a "Sun Storage Cabinet", you can afford to pay a few thousand bucks to get this taken care of properly. If you can't afford it, then wait until it breaks, and you'll be forced to.
I might not speak for everybody but I'd imagine that the majority of people went "Hire an electrician" when they read that story. I really don't think you want to be mucking around in there with "some sort of junction in them that's the size of a 1-liter bottle" as you don't appear to know what that is (neither do I).
I know you want to save money but you're likely to fry the electric equipment in your establishment and might take yourself with it. Hiring a professional would likely be cheaper in the long run.
I've worked with mains voltage in the past (wiring new rooms, installing lighting), but nothing on this scale, both in terms of complexity and potential for death. How do you industrious Slashdot readers go about fixing a mess like this (on a tight budget, no less) without getting a mains-induced glimpse at the great beyond?"
I Am Not An Electrician, and from the sounds of it, neither are you.
I'd suggest hiring one.
// TODO: Insert Cool Sig
You Insensitive Clod.
Port 80, we dont need no stinckin port 80.
on a tight budget, no less
Hire an expensive professinal, that will solve the problem and be more than a tight budget.
Tor
elect rician
You have two options:
1) Hire a professional electician at a very high rate of pay to rewire the box and make it safe.
2) Hire a burn specialist at an extremely high rate of pay to patch your smoking body together after attempting to fix it yourself.
5) Mike Tyson sounds like a girl.
4) Honey, that's just the PMS talking.
3) [Redneck accent]Hey y'all, watch this...
2) Betcha can't...
1) We'll save a lot of money by not hiring an electrician...
'Nuff said.
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
You have two options:
1. Read National Electrician's Code and the
Emerald book (IEEE guide). Then figure out
who installed the wiring and get a full layout
from them. Buy electrician's equipment as
necessary. Fix the problem.
2. Hire an electrician. You'll still need full
layout of your wiring.
There's also insurance reasons as well. Having someone other than a qualified electrician do the work can void your fire insurance.
send an email to your PHB that says things like "fire hazard" "risk to operations" "danger to employees and $$$$ equiment" "violation of code" and/or "insurance risk". That should get you the authorization you need to do whatever needs to be done - which, as others have pointed out, is HIRE A PROFESSIONAL.
Is the juice worth the sqeeze?
You are a Darwin award waiting to happen...
You shouldn't be going anywhere near mains wiring unless you're a licensed and bonded electrician.
If you're not, and you fsck something up, you (or your estate, as the case may be) will not only be liable for damage to your equipment, but also to damage to any of the power company's equipment you might destroy in the process...
How do you industrious Slashdot readers go about fixing a mess like this (on a tight budget, no less) without getting a mains-induced glimpse at the great beyond?
Because we all know that the ONLY people who can do anything about this are ELECTRICIANS.
Think you can fix the electrical problems yourself? Sure, go ahead. And when you have a fire, or an electrical fault, or your servers get killed, and your insurance company finds you did the work and not a certified electrican, you are gonna get boned so hard you'll wish you'd never been born.
... then you shouldn't be doing it.
Sorry, but this is the kind of thing that only years of experience can help with. If you didn't look at it and already know how to approach the problem, you probably shouldn't be messing around in there, unless you have all the time in the world to experiment and learn your way through the mess.
First I was surprised that IANAL advice hasn't landed some "Ask Slashdotter" in prison. Now we're aiming for our first fatality?
Robots are everywhere, and they eat old people's medicine for fuel.
then fugitaboutit.
Heaven forbid a joke ever be potentially offensive to anyone.
How do you industrious Slashdot readers go about fixing a mess like this (on a tight budget, no less) without getting a mains-induced glimpse at the great beyond?
There's two obvious answers here:
1. Hire an electrician.
2. If you're going to mess with it yourself, unplug it first. 220V AC isn't a problem when you've got a three-foot airgap.
Tarsnap: Online backups for the truly paranoid
Get yoself a pair o' needle nose plairs with ensulated handles and a good flash lite. I gots a pair, but dah ends of 'em ain't so sharp and pointy anymoe since I fused 'em once between a hot 220 and a metal box... they be kinda melted now, but I lived thru the sparks and cracklin noise, and we all know that that's all that matters in dah end.
Long story short: Hire a LICENSED ELECTRICIAN!!!
I hear tripping over the wires.. (pulling them all over the place) then suing the company helps to get wiring messes fixed right up in jiffy.
anime+manga together at last.. in real time.
Get a lot of good insurance and leave it the fsck alone...
Given the choice between continuing to work at a cheap-ass company that won't pay for an electrician to do POTENTIALLY DEADLY rewiring and unemployment, TAKE UNEMPLOYMENT!!!
Not only will you stay alive, you won't have to deal with getting laid off (or having your salary slashed) when the cheapos realize that they are paying you.
Now, everybody: Ah, ah, ah, ah, STAYIN' ALIVE! STAYIN' ALIVE!!!
That's "Mr. Soulless Automaton" to you, Bub.
along the lines of "you fscking idot don't try that at home". Well, that's totally against the hacker spirit of learning how to do it yourself, hopefully without killing yourself.
I've wired up several additional circuits in my home and my office and it's not that hard. All I needed was a little common sense, a copy of the Ugly's book, and the local home depot. In your case though, if the main drop coming in from the pole is bad, you need to have the power company turn off your service drop so you can replace it.
If the main lines coming in are safely insulated and do not need to be replaced, then what you can do is shut off the main breaker, unscrew all the circuits coming in to the individual breakers, and replace all your house wiring and perhaps all the breakers as well. This is not a job for the faint of heart, but I wouldn't say it's incredibly skill-intensive. Just takes some patience to wire up all that stuff and not slip with your hand/screwdriver and hit the main lugs. If they're exposed where they connect to the main breaker, then you might want to cover them up with cardboard and tape while you're working.
Oh, and don't blame me if you kill yourself. I'm not an electrician - an electrician would tell you to hire an electrician. I'm just telling you where *I* would start.
to check the requirements for the rack. We have installed IBM racks for large systems and they have specific requirements. There has be a certain type of voltage to the rack...something weird like 48V DC or -48 V...good luck!
You could do something in the distribution box that causes a fire at a later date.
The insurance company will investigate and if they see unliscenced wiring, they may deny coverage.
If you have to ask...
Your problems are no doubt more systemic than just the main breaker panel. That cloth wrapped wire is in your walls too (which isnt necessarily all that bad, thats what the pro will tell you). Can the existing wiring even support the added load of your new Sun box?
Or, you can get advice from a bunch of halfwits on the internet. It's up to you.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
Suck it up and hire an electrician. Seriously. Yes, those of us who have done lots of electrical work and know not to connect power to ground may feel that it's horribly wrong to pay someone for this, but you really should do it. Even if you know what you're doing, things can always go wrong, and if you're not a licensed electrician you could be opening yourself up to lawsuits by the power company, building code violations, you could lose insurance, etc.
Now, if you want to do your own work inside your house, I would recommend that you get the electrician to install a master lockout switch (different from a master breaker in the panel) between you and the mains supply. Then, play with anything behind that, and you probably won't get in trouble with the power company. You can go re-wire your whole panel yourself, and save some money (getting them to install the lockout switch will be quite cheap comparitively)
There is no sig, there is only Zuul.
You pay someone who is licensed to handle such a mess and knows what he is doing.
Get references.
- Zav - Imagine a Beowulf cluster of insensitive clods...
I, for one, welcome our new Wire Mess Overloards!
"There is no teacher but the enemy."-Mazer Rackham
Being zapped by A/C at any voltage, let alone 220/440 really is teh suck!
In all seriousness, a wire job as large as you describe will likely have to be permitted with your local government construction office. That means that the work has to be performed by a licensed electrician and it has to be inspected the appropriate government agency afterwards.
Shut off all the power at a main breaker. Run some kind of signal generator on a wire and use an inductive amplifier to find where the wire leads to. Untangle it. (don't rinse) and repeat until you've found and untangled all wires, replacing connections and even physical cable when possible.
I figure it used to be white, but now it is covered in dried-on red stains.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
1) Purchase life insurrance policy. ... sizzle ...
2) Play with wires.
3)
4) PROFIT!
But seriously...
This sounds like a bad situation. I don't know your exact situation (residential, commericial, etc.), but besides death there's more to worry about, like wiring code, insurrance if the place burns down, legal liability if such a thing were to happen, liability if you electrocute someone else in the process... I upgraded my home from 100 to 250 amp service. That was a big enough job for me, and it *wasn't* a mess. I think the only sound advice is to wash your hands of it...
ascii art
If you know that you can perform the work safely and in conformance to local electrical safety codes you should proceed to do it yourself.
The potential for electrocution or an electrical fire is more than enough to make me call a licensed electrician for an estimate.
I'll do small wiring jobs myself. However, I always hire a licensed electrician for any job that involves a distribution panel. A key selling point is that licensed electricians carry insurance to cover any problems that may arise from re-wiring a distribution panel.
Another key selling point is that a licensed electrician can prepare all the needed components to ensure minimum downtime. I always end up making at least one trip to the hardware store after I've shutdown the power.
that is definitelly a hard job to do. i would leave it to the professionals. its just going to take you 5 times as long to do what they could do in one day. and it won't even look half as good. i tried doing a lab once. i just ended up paying someone else to do it. and what they did came out nice.
One thing you should be aware of is that if the rewiring is done improperly such that it effects your neighbours, you will be fined, unless you get a licensed electrician to do it (it which case, s/he will be fined). Friends of mine were fined $3500 because they had a husband of a coworker do it for "cheap".
-no broken link
Okay, think long term here:
1) How much will hiring an electrician cost?
2) How much will your medical bills and/or funeral cost after you do this yourself, YOU FREAKING MORON?
Should be fairly simple math.
to be wanting to try to repair something like that on your own (well, at least not having a professional do it)...
Ever see a transformer blow up? Check out these pictures of the remains of one.
So, lick the terminals to find out which ones are hot (works with 9V batteries). Then, standing in a bucket of water, grab a big handful of cables and PULL.
Ignore the fizzing and the smell of burning hair. Douse any lingering flames with gasoline.
They say the first thing to go is your penis. Well, it's either that or your brain. I forget which...
Post some photos. Have seen some real knots in the past (personal favorites are tar/cloth on glass).
or send to wireb(at)att(dot)net
thanks
Wire
This is just like the McDonald's lawsuit. Spill hot coffee on your own lap, sue the company that dared to sell you hot coffee and get rich.
It sounds like one of the main buses in the box got shorted out. You really need to get the thing rewired by a licensed electrician.
If the panel is at work, it's probably illegal for you to work on it. In the immortalized words of Beowulf Schaeffer, "Its Worth Yore Life And More To Go In There!" Seriously, as an uber-l337 633K, you probably have the ability to find the place where the short occurred -- but do you really want to (A) monkey around in a box with live current (it sounds like that is your main box, not a subpanel); (B) stick your neck out by breaking the law for your employer; and (C) possibly assume liability for burning down the building? No? I didn't think so.
If you're at home, you're probably allowed to work on it -- but most places require you to get an electrical inspector to look at it once you're done. Unfortunately, doing this requires getting the local electrical code, so that you know what you're doing -- and that's a whole separate rant. The National Electrical Code is adopted into most municipalities' building codes -- but it's copyrighted by the National Fire Prevention Association. Fortunately, the Supreme Court recently decided that it's unconstitutional to attempt to copyright the law of the land. Unfortuantely, you can't get the electrical code online yet -- you probably still have to buy it.
Of course. It fixes everything.
If you have that much current flowing in, there are bills to be paid for this.
If you have that much machines running, there's a budget for maintenance.
If your employer tells you to fix it yourself with new wire and duct tape, he either doesn't give a sh*t about you and your safety, or he's completely insane.
Hiring an electrician to install some lamp wiring is stupid and overkill if someone in-house can do it, but playing in an electric box isn't.
For the price it would cost you to have it done by a professional
1. you will cut the downtime,
2. have a fully secured panel (and certified)
3. If it catches on fire you won't have problem with insurance claims since it was certified (whereas if you mess around in this yourself without the credentials, you could run in a PILE and I do mean a PILE of problems). This point alone should make a perfect argumentation to any "managers".
4. Your paycheck isn't worth you life, especially if you have to turn around to slashdot for advice.
5. If you are so much on a tight budget, sell off one machine to pay for the contractor, or try to find someone that would do it for cheap, still, you'll have to pay for the material and it doesn't come cheap. I don't beleive in "tight budgets" for critical things like this, again, if you can afford having this many machines running, you can afford to support them, if they are all put to use, surely you are generating revenues, if they aren't , they can be sold.
6. See point #4 as a personnal advice.
I'd be really scared to work at some company that couldn't afford an electrician for a job like this, if they are so tight, chances are your paycheck will eventually bounce, so risking that much for that little...
--- Metamoderating abusive downgraders since my 300th post.
He didn't last too long though.
Once when was grabbing it the wire, it set him up the bomb.
Go get a copy of the Nation Electric Code.. and read up a bit.. it's long and boring.. but I just took the minnesota state electritians exam.. and now i'm a certified Power Limited Tech.. good enough for up to 600 volt circuts..
8 77 654697
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0
And you have to be authorized (i.e. electrician) to do this. After the power is turned off at the pole, you can replace the box with something a little more modern. If you are so inclined, you can get breakers/breaker boxes/wiring at home depot or equivalent.
There may be local/state laws or codes against doing the wiring yourself. I don't think there are any such laws where I live (Mississippi).
-
Let me put it to you this way: even the how-to books that have you wiring up your entire home tell you to stay away from power mains. Very, very far away.
MacGyver would hire an electrician. You should too.
You're lack of judgment in this matter makes me doubt your ability to assess any technical problem.
If you are not a certified electrician that has been trained to deal with that voltage range do not attempt to do so.
If you are going ahead anyway. Take another person with you at all times. Your buddy should be able to shut down the entire mains current within slit seconds. Your buddy should have a wood/rubber/plastic or otherwise insulating device that can be used to knock you away from the power source if necessary.
Never use both hands, current will flow through your heart and spine. Do not wear anything metallic such as chains, watches, rings etc.
Remember that even if you wear double or triple insulation that a high enough electrical potential can break through anyway. I work with 600+ Volt pulse LASER capacitors and I've seen arcs go through plastic.
To reiterate. If your not qualified do not attempt to do the job. Anything that you do based on any of the above is your responsibility only.
Good Luck.
If you outlaw the law, only criminals will have laws
Dear Slashdot users
I've been spitting up blood and there are lesions that appear randomly on my body I can't keep any food down. Do you have any suggestions on how to treat my own disease using unqualified advice from the web and toys^H^H^H tools from think geek?
I almost hope the guy does it alone, it would be a great example of natural selection.
If you are leasing the office space (or some other form of rent) - won't the building owner cover at least part of the cost of fixing it? I would think they would be legally obligated to at least participate in re-wiring something of this scale.
In any regard, be smart and hire a certified electrician to come and do it right.
I don't know where you're from - Oh well, I'm guessing in America. But in other countries, like Denmark, it's illegal to do stuff like that yourself. Nullifies insurance and stuff. Hiring professionals for that sort of thing is wise, and not just for the aforementioned reasons.
A (cheaper) solution in Denmark would be to get an electrician to moonlight it (or whatever it is called), and get his company to "stamp" it a valid installation.
Any technology distinguishable from magic, is insufficiently advanced.
Yeeeeeaaah, you're gonna go ahead and have to hire an electrician for this sort of job, umm yeah, so I'm gonna have you go ahead and do that, ok? Ohh and, yeeaah, did you finish up those TPS reports?
I hate sigs.
Why do I say that? Because it sounds like you're not a licensed electrician. If you were, you probably wouldn't be asking these questions.
Now, what does that matter? While many/most places will let you work on your *own home* without being an electrician, I doubt there are any in the US (and probably most of the industrial world) that will let you work on your employer's electrical system.
So, here's what can happen: 5 years down the road, a fire starts. The fire investigators trace it back to faulty wiring. Woops! The work wasn't done by an electrician, and you didn't have it inspected. Guess who's liable.
Now, in the off-chance that your municipality WILL let you do the work and pass it off, the answer is easy: You bite the bullet and rewire everything. A pain in the butt, but not as large as having a fire - or even as much as tripping circuits to important systems at inopportune moments.
steve
Oh, you're not stuck, you're just unable to let go of the onion rings.
on the liabilities of your business if you get killed doing this...
Why not ask the Slashdot crowd, I'm sure they're fully quailfied to help here too!
q:]
MadCow.
(for God's sake man, hire an electrician!)
I used to have a sig, but I set it free and it never came back.
OK I dont know where you are or even if your in the USA. But lets not let that stop me making the usual american twist on things. First off in a lot of states even eletrical engeineers arent allowed to work on commercial or industrial wiring it has to be a licened eletritian otherwise a nice building inspector can come in and close the building period end of sentance yes the nice sherif will escort you out now till it's fixed and up to code. Now with that all said rewiring a mess like you describe is anywhere from easy to very complex depending on your UPS and gen set needs. From your description of the main fuses (those nice 1liter bottle looking things) you are running a decent ammount of current the perfered method would be to get a new pannel mount it get your eletric company out to move over the mains while you move over all the circuts. If at all possible oversize the pannel and ask for an increase in incoming amps they never hurt. If you realy need minimal downtime try and get a new main service attached it to the new pannel and move over circut but circut to the live new pannel it's not that dangerious just stay slow and pedantic.
No sir I dont like it.
its probably up to code.
And make sure your "C-rated" fire extinguisher is fully charged.
There exists no way of exchanging information without making judgments. --Bene Gesserit Axiom
are the size implied by your description, you will not have access to the correct parts to work in this box.
A hint: Nobody, and especially no professional would do work on the infeed side of a box like that with the power still on. Sliding in a new circuit into a clean space hot, sure, but revamping a box that apparently has already had an incident, no way.
This post typed with my left hand in my back pocket.
Not only is it dangerous and lethal, not to mention analog... its ILLEGAL in most places for you to do the work unless you're a licensed electrician (some exceptions for certain 120vac work). Heck... a lot of places require you to have a Low Voltage certification to run cat5......
For home, who cares,,, for business: follow the rules.
Hire a professional. A real professional. It won't necessarily "be cheap" but it will be safe. When the powers that be balk, ask them which would be "cheaper", getting this fixed and staying operational, or having the whole thing go *POOF* and take the location out of service and still have to get it fixed.
If you are the unlucky person that has to fix it, then find the main that feeds that panel and TURN IT OFF.
Don't even think about trying to fix this problem while it is hot. Not unless you've got a deathwish and, if you have any family you care about, a great big life insurance policy that will still pay out after acts of stupidity.
I've worked around a few power systems, and the one thing above all else, give that electrical panel LOTS OF RESPECT. Always assume a circuit is hot, even if "you KNOW you turned it off earlier". Always leave a flag on the circuit that you turned off so that others know it is off on purpose, especially if you have to turn off a main to kill power to that panel. Always remember SAFETY FIRST, even when your working on a "dead" panel. If you have insulated tools, good -- use them. If you have heavy duty insulated gloves -- use them. Never work alone -- always have somebody around that is aware of what your doing and that can check on you from time to time, or better yet, keep you in sight. They don't have to help you work on the circuits, but if something goes horribly wrong and you get zapped, that person can call 911 and get you help.
. 62,400 repetitions make one truth -- Brave New World, Aldous Huxley
I am an electrician so I know what I am talking about. If you grab hold of the black wire with one hand and the red wire with your other, you should be able to eliminate your main problem. P.S. Don't really do this.
People say my sig is the best thing about me.
You do the job on your own, and after touching the wrong pair of wires you end up with 220 volts from armpit to armpit.
Slow cooking in your own body fat is not a nice way to die my son. Walk away from this one and get an electrician in.
Ed Almos
The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws. - Tacitus, 56-120 A.D.
He already knew that the thing was a mess and needed rewiring, in case you missed that whole point. He was looking for tips on making sure it is done safely and correctly.
Lord only knows there are enough people here looking for a job, and if you go screwing around in there your company will have at least one job opening.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts."
There is a reason that master electricians get paid the big bucks (and it's not all about just _surviving_, either).
;-) The situation you describe frankly sounds quite dangerous. Is burning the building down worth saving the cost of hiring a pro?
IANAE, but anyone can play anything on the web, right?
If you're *totally* determined to do it yourself, do the obvious. Turn off the upstream power (omit long-winded story of how to power a data center when the main is down - been there ). Make sure you understand what all the parts are, how to tell if they need replacing, and have replacements on hand before you start.
I would guess that there are innumerable sources of education and product sales in this area, so it shouldn't be *that* hard to figure out what everything is, why it is there and how to test it.
On the other hand, there *is* a learning curve involved, and I shouldn't need to point out the dangers of working on a *hot* box based soley on theoretical knowledge! How long do you have to learn how to fix it before you get more than just sparks?
Disclaimer: I've never done any hands-on on anything bigger than your average house feed. I do feel like I learned a lot from being a curious guy in general and having access to a Master Electrician for a couple years, including building out a new data center. And in your shoes, I would not undertake the task without hazard pay that would be higher than the cost of the electrician.
Another possibility is to call the power company, get them to take a look (say you smelled smoke, or saw sparks or something). I doubt they'll fix it, but they'll definitely escalate the problem for you.
If you're not living on the edge, you're just taking up space!
Cut the blue wire.
Requiring a physical medium for electricity to travel on is also prone to failures along the medium. Take the oft discussed recent blackout for example, which for all you know was a result of overloaded circuits....circuits comprised of physical conductors.
Consider wireless electricity, assuming it's a feasible idea: This article seems to think it is. I also recall an earlier /. article about it. Wireless electricity would not only help remove ugly transmission wires, and make it easy to deliver, but may also boost reliability.
And then ofcourse, there's the Electricity over IP RFC which could be adapted to wireless networks.
An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam
I would have thought the highly litigious atmosphere in the USA would dictate that you've already broken several health and safety laws just opening the box and are now open to all sorts of nasty lawsuits.
However, like numerous others before me, I have to ask - "are you insane?"
Step away from the box, call an electrician before the place burns down, and get it fixed quickly and properly. If you try and do it yourself you could easily end up destroying costly equipment and endangering other peoples' lives.
darwin awards.. funny!
But I want to see some pictures of this mess! How big? How many wires? How much current? How much insulating dust?
Come on man, we need photos of your darwin forray!
You may actually be legally required to hire a licensed electrician to wire that panel for you. He or she will know (or should know) all the required specifications (wire gauge, circuit breakers, etc.) for such an installation.
But if you were to undertake that yourself, you would want to turn off the circuit breaker immediately upstream from that panel, put a tag on it so that nobody would reactivate it while you were working on the panel, and then check the mains coming into the box for voltage using a meter.
From the sounds of it, though, there may be some special requirements for that panel aside from a simple circuit-breaker power distribution panel. The big thing wrapped in electrical tape sounds rather suspicious, and may be desired or undesired at this point, and you probably wouldn't know until you found out what it was.
P.S. An old electricians' saying is to keep one hand in your back pocket. At least then, you won't provide a current path across your chest....
Now we know the real reason for the Northeastern power-outtage...........
HaHaHaHaHa
Why doesn't your dad emigrate to India?
I'm not sure about this but most building it is the responsiblity of the landlord to get this type of stuff, it is in fact a fire hazard and if the company has not been there all this time i would say you could demand your landloard pay to have the whole thing fixed. If thats not the case it needs to be done professionally, what are you going to do the next time you need add yet another plug, its how the breakers go that way in the first place, one too many joe blows adding jsut one more plug.
If you can't fix it ask the 3 year old down the street.
I bought an old house with old style wiring last year. The wiring was a mess. I had an electrician come in and fix a few things but it would have cost too much to rewire the whole house. I bought a copy of this book (it's well worth the price.) I spent about a 6 months reading it and working up the guts to start. I got a permit just a few weeks ago. Once you do a little bit, you realize it is not that big of a deal. Any geek should be able to figure it out and avoid the obvious mistakes. Just research it for a while first. Actually, I found the worst thing about it is that it is very physically demanding (and I am in very good shape.)
By the time I am done, it will probably only cost about $700 - $1000 (permit and inspection cost account for about $300 of that where I live.)
thx!
Put it this way, either you hire a bonded professional to fix it or you do it yourself and have your building condemned. Think I'm kidding you? Think again. Would your company rather spend a few grand on a professional or would they rather pay a few million (or more) in court costs and settlements when an employee is electricuted by accident? Present it to them in that manner and see what they say. Above all else even if they are stupid enough to do it on their own, without a professional, and against code DO NOT I repeat DO NOT get involved in it in any way, shape, or form. If you help them or do the work yourself you will be the one held accountable when disaster strikes. The company may have told you to do it but you didn't have to do it. Would you shoot someone if they told you to? Exactly my point.
grep electrician yellowpages
What, you're scared of 220 Volts ? When we were growing up, we walked 200 miles through six feet of snow, wearing no shoes, and we repaired 2000 volt circuits with our bare hands. :-)
the whole thing like wouldn't work you know cause like the original you know guy like died or something and then like the work would be like not finished and like then the system would like not work. so the original guy like probably did not you know like die when seting it up
While I admire your DITY attitude. It's time to call an electrician. Anyone who advises you to do otherwise is foolish.
don't know how to go on wiring it.
obviously, you wouldn't be asking slashdot if you knew how to do it properly. there's no magic bullet here that could be answered, no 'go to www.magicalgoodieselectricitycreator.com' for short, useful answer.
so, either educate yourself in the field of electricity installing (time taking, possibly costly) or like all the other comments said: "hire an electrician".
ok i might be crazy but why were you there in the first place installing that cable if you don't know enough of how to fix that rats nest that already seems like a kludge? here's a thought: replace it and rewire everything properly without pounds of tape.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
How do I perform brain surgery on myself?
What is the best way to travel about in a war zone?
What is the best way to tell my spouse that she needs to lose A LOT of weight?
How can I get close to the President while carrying a handgun?
How can I steal power from a high tension line?
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
How do you think I really lost all that weight? -Jared
Don't resign. A worker can notify his supervisor that due to what the worker believes that doing the task placed before them will put them in imminent danger, he can refuse to do that task. The worker then needs to fill out a form or two and contact the Occupational Safety & Health Administration. The worker cannot be disciplined for refusing to work in a dangerous situation.
Then get some popcorn.
The coke-bottle junctions on the power supply wires are probably aluminum-->copper connectors, to put a copper pigtail on the end of the aluminum. Not a problem. Ignore them.
The cloth insulation worries me. Is it ``everywhere'' because it's cracking and falling off? How old is that building? You need to have an electrician evaluate the wiring in the building. It may be that the box is the least of your problems. If the building (and thus the wiring) belongs to a landlord, things aren't so bad for you. If the building belongs to your employer, he's not going to want to hear this. Remember, better to quit your job than get blamed for an electrical fire.
Did I mention that you should hire an electrician, AND NOT TOUCH IT YOURSELF?
I'm an electrical engineer (that's what my first diploma says, anyway), I've wired houses, and I used to be familair with the NEC. I would never touch wiring outside of my own home.
See what I've been reading.
You know, if you replace "TLC or Discovery Channel" with "Oz" from HBO, that phrase takes on a whole new meaning. So does the word "professional." Hehe.
Huh...you watch a lot of Discovery and TLC. Watch any HGTV as well? Oh, I'm married too. ;)
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
Funny, you say rewiring once in the subject and once in the comment. But never does the word disassemble occur.
I just hope the poster survives long enough so the electrician can tell him what's in the "1-liter bottles".
Telephone systems used to use fuses embedded in a wooden housing, roughly the size of a felt-tip pen. Could those be the 220VAC equivalent, circa 1940-1950s?
Hire a professional. As the son of an electrical contractor (I've worked many summers for my dad's business), I'd say your best bet is to contract out the job. Since the main power feeds have "Something the size of a 1-liter bottle" attached to them, fixing this problem may require working with the power company itself. At least in my area (Eastern Ohio), the power company (Pronounced "The Man") requires that you have a qualified electrician working on the service feeds anyhow.
Af fa as cost goes, most contractors will give out free estimates. Get a few estimates / recommendations, and bite the bullet. It's not worth the risk.
"Me fail English, that's unpossible." --Ralphie
Please, please, please note: it is *not* 220V. In the U.S. (where the "monophasic" voltage is 120V AC RMS) you find that the voltage between any pair of the three phases will be 120V*SQR(3) = 208 V AC RMS, close to 220 V but not quite. I guess that the confusion comes because 220 V *is* the standard monophasic voltage in many parts of the world... I am just tired of seeing the 220 V incorrectly used ;-)
MacGyver would hire an electrician.
Actually he would not. In one episode he fixed a fuse with tinfoil. Not that i'd ever do that at home but it certainly works...until your house burns down that is heh.
Not to mention being able to slap you with lawsuits for damages, as well as building code violations if something goes wrong.
Electricity is not a toy (as I have heard, many times, because my father was trained as an electrician).
This is not a sig.
Voltage and current like that require good insulation against ground-shorting. I suggest doing the work in rollerskates or inline skates with a high-quality polyurethane wheel. Old clay or steel wheels will not do. Avoid the 'clip-over-your-shoes' type.
For the sake of discussion, what are we talking about here?
* Romex, tube-and-knob or BX cabling?
* Are there breakers on the mains or is it just
the "big things with electrical tape" you are
talking about?
* How is the box wired -- in other words, how did
you trip all the brakers on one side? Generally
breaker boxes are wired back-and-forth with
every other braker on one side wired to the two
incoming 3-pahse mains. This is both for load
balancing accross the mains and also so that you
may put one double breaker accross and get
3-phase 220V.
* How many amps is the service? How many circuits
are there?
In the end, there is so little info here that I suggest the same -- call an electrician. It is like someone saying "my computer crashed" with very little info about it or why and asking for advice.
Becourse if you do then from an evolutionary standpoint you have already propagated and your dna has been spread so it doesn't really matter what you do.
But if you don't, what are you waiting for, no one else is going to fix it for you, give it a try.
... at least through extremities. My old high school physics teacher used to stick his finger in light sockets for laughs. Then he would pull out the Variac and let you stick your own finger in a light socket with variable AC voltage. Up to about 30 VDC you couldn't feel a thing. When you control the voltage yourself, 110VAC is no big deal at all -- just a strong tingling in the finger (in the light socket).
Find out who's responsible: Do you rent? Did you buy it? Did you build it? Is this your mess? Clean it up! Is is someone else's mess? Make sure they know that they're going to have a serious problem if they don't clean it up NOW!
No matter who's responsibility it is, you need to take care of the fire/electrocution hazard NOW! Your laws may vary (Napoleanic Code?), but over here if someone gets hurt while on your property, it's your fault. Pay for it yourself, or if you're so inclined, sue the responsible party.
In any case, do what the other folks have said: Have a licensed professional bring it up to code or hang a lock NOW
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, it doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
"First thing to do is SHUT OFF THE POWER AND INSURE IT WILL NOT BE TURNED BACK ON UNTIL YOU ARE DONE!!!"
This is extremely good advice.* Professional electricians will put a little warning sign over any breakers, switches, etc. that are shut off that says essentially, "if you turn on power here, you'll kill someone." Make sure you have one.
That said, I too think this is a very good way to add yourself to the next Darwin Awards.
*Ignoring the goofup with "insure" used rather than "ensure", but that's not a *big* deal.
I strongly urge you to use no more than one hand at a time if you intend to play with anything near that box.
Also, whatever you do, don't stand directly in front of a panel in disrepair. I've seen fireballs shoot out of properly configured boxes, much less improperly wired ones.
Hell, just invent some wireless power solution!!
C'mon, it can't be that much different, now can it? We've already got Power Over Ethernet, and Wireless Networking.... it's just waiting for some geek to marry the two together!!
No seriously. There are situations where you know what you're doing, and then are situations where you must be wise enough to tell yourself,
"Self, I am going to kill myself doing this."
As many have pointed out, it is time to call in a professional. This needs to get fixed, and fixed right, probably *before* you put any kind of electrical load on it, too.
Either call in a competent electrician, or walk away and write it off as a loss. Those are your only two sane solutions.
do() || do_not();
Famous last words:
/. reader
:D
"It's very beautiful over there." - Thomas Edison, famed inventor and scientist
"I have tried so hard to do right." - Grover Cleveland, 22nd President of the United States
"Tight budget, yes sir.." - FueledByRamen, avid
--
MJ
have pride in your wiring, make it so it looks neat and way cool and if you are proud of your wiring the chances are its done to a good standard,
goto a big rock concert and check out the amp racks or generators and you will see good wiring (if they are a reputable touring firm), you dont want the sound tripping with 30,000 pissed off rockers to deal with
From America you think? Not likely. Here's why:
1) There is no 220V here. Standard household service is 120V. Heavy appliances or light industrial may use 208V (3 phase), 240V, or possibly 480V. But, no 220V. This fellow will need a VERY long extension cord to find a 220V outlet.
2) No one here uses the term "mains" to describe their electrical feed. Sounds a bit like a British or Aussie thing to me.
Slashdot is entertaining like pro wrestling is entertaining
you are better off to call a licensed electrician.
Don't even think about touching anything in there. You will be taking the big dirt nap shortly if you do, and a little on the crispy side at that.
CAT-5 is one thing, AC wiring will KILL YOU DEAD. Keep out of it, call a state licensed electrician. Not to mention, it's the law in most states anyway..
In the words of an oil well firefighter during the first Gulf War (his name escapes me) when asked about his rates being so expensive... "If you think my professional rates are expensive, try hiring an amateur and see what it costs you!"
Does your company actually OWN the building, or lease it? If you are leasing the building, chances are your landlord is responsable for repairing such a hazard.
The Matrix is real... but I'm only visiting!
The Matrix is real... but I'm only visiting!
Theres a lot of (-1, redundant) posts about hiring a professional electrian on this story, but are there any reading slashdot?
Ok, I actually agree with that. But think of the irony.
How many Slashdot readers administrate networks? How many of you are "qualified/licensed" to do so? How many times have you fucked up and blown away a network filesystem? Destroyed a backup tape? Or caused some other kind of disaster?
The fact is, if the system administration and programming industries were unionized and licensed, many of us would be out of work. Either because of ideological problems ("fuck that, I don't need to prove anything with some test"), or because you don't do well on exams, or because dammit you just aren't that good at what you do.
But when it comes to electrical equipment, bring on the IBEW unionized workers, they're the only Gods^H^H^H^Hpeople qualified to work on any of this stuff...
I'm not trying to rip on anyone here, just pointing out a slight bit of irony. And yes, I know that destroying the financial data of a fortune 500 company isn't quite equivalent to electrocuting somebody, but it's still a big deal.
Anything where I can cut the breaker on I feel somewhat safe working with. Franky, I think there *might* be a breaker, on the pole, with a hell of alot of power that could fry you in a moment.
In theory you need to be grounded to get a shock. with a rat's nest style breaker box, it sounds like this would be painfuly easy. Unless there was a logical means of the end user cutting the main power at the pole, I really would highly reccomend not attempting this sort of repair.
If you really must do it your self, wear shoes good solid shoes with a high level of insolation. Work with only one hand so in the event you do get shocked it doesn't go through your heart or vital organs. And if you still feel you must do it your self, work with a 2nd person who has a bat with an insolated handle and instrict them to hit you with the bat in the event you get shocked. Broken arm is better then cooked organs anyday. This is a good rule them that is drilled into you in any begining electrical engeniering class.
But I wouldn't reccomend it, because you could kill your self. Without a good solid background in electrcity, it would be foolish to engage such a project. Even if I phoned the electric company and told them to shut off the power for a day, I still wouldn't do it my self.
Pay someone else to do it! If it was plumbing that's a diffrent story, worst case is you could be knee deep in shit, smelly but not dead.
If you are on a tight budget, then contact your local school of electrical engeniering and ask if there are students available to use your pad as an assignment.
If you are in doubt as to your ability to tackle this project DON'T DO IT.
There is no sanctuary. There is no sanctuary. SHUT UP! There is no shut up. There is no shut up.
Have a look at some of the practice tests you can review before you sit for your ticket. A licensed electrician is NOT "bubba with a wiggy". These folks are worth the money they earn. This is a safety issue. It matters if you screw it up. And if you've screwed it up, it may not be immediately obvious. Hire somebody who knows what the hell they're doing.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, it doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
Yeah
First, take off your shoes and stand barefoot on the concrete floor. Now, whip out your schlong and commence to take a whiz on the innards of that power distribution box. Hopefully it will weld your peterhole shut so that you will become unable to procreate and therefore prevent further contamination of the human race with your obviously defective DNA.
Beyond all doubt, you need an electrician. Call them today and have them make an emergency visit just to make sure your not about to burst into flames. Your family's lifes may depend on it!
The cable between the meter-head and the service panel should be replaced.
When I had the service panel in my last home replaced I had the electric company upgrade me from a 100, to a 200 amp service. This gave me a new drop between the house and pole as well as a new meter head. There was no charge for this.
I then had the electricians come in and install a new 200-amp service panel. All the work was "done to code" with municipal permits and inspections. Its easier to sleep and I 'll never have to get the bad news from the insurance company that I wasn't covered for the self induced electric fire.
Other stuff that you should consider while getting this good stuff done, are whole house surge suppressor and dedicated isolated ground computer circuits.
If money is tight, today's super low interest rates should make home equity loans or removing some equity with refinance both good options. Also check with the local utility, local and state governments about energy incentive programs that might get you some money back on your original project.
And Change the batteries on your smoke detectors TODAY!
3PhaseNGround asks: "While trying to upgrade computer for the office (located out front where the receptionist sits), I had the misfortune of needing to pop the lid on main case (previously opened in the late 80s). The whole thing is a rats nest and probably a fire hazard - old-style wiring with broken-down cloth/plastic insulation strewn everywhere, and the big green board had a lot of little chips on it. Even (gently) putting the panel back on jiggled something important, and there was a nasty cracking noise and half the chips blew (all the chips on this one row). I've worked with these computer things in the past (new computer at home, hooking up a scanner to my iMac), but nothing on this scale, both in terms of complexity and potential for death. How do you industrious electrician readers go about fixing a mess like this (on a tight budget, no less) without frying the last 20 years of bookkeeping records?"
How 'bout putting up a picture of that mess for us to enjoy?
Use duct tape, it fixes everything.
"The two most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity." -Harlan Ellison
As a devoted employee trying to save your company money, the answer is obvious.
Step 1: Buy life insurance, lots of it. Name your employer sole beneficiary.
Step 2: Attempt to "fix" this yourself.
Step 3: PROFIT! The company can use the benefits (assuming the insurer doesn't use your actions as prima facie evidence of suicidal intent) to hire a professional to do the job right. You'll be dead, but that's a small price to pay, eh?
Seriously, what has our country come to where this is a legitimate question? Techies should be comfortable replacing wall switches and outlets, installing undercounter lighting, and other light work. But anything involving the main should go to the professionals without a second thought. If it's as bad as you said, it should also go to the lawyers - wasn't this building ever inspected? Who did this shoody work before, or allowed it to remain in such poor condition?
Think about it this way - imagine this was a manufacturing shop and people have routine cuts and burns and the like. No big deal, anyone with modest first aid skills can deal with it. But if somebody came in with a compound fracture and 4" of bone showing, would you patch them with the ace bandage and send them on their way? Or would you decide that this is one of those situations where you need to call in the professionals?
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
Do not, I repeat, do not touch anything in there. It's a really good way to die quickly and messily. I work in theater tech and have witnessed several electrical accidents (never fatal, just scary) and always treat power with the utmost respect. Get a qualified electrician in there, don't try anything yourself. You might die, start the building on fire, knock out power to other people, you name it. Observe this video:
http://205.243.100.155/frames/mpg/XfrmBlast1.mpg
Several hundred thousand volts killing a large transformer. Listen to that sound - you don't want to sound like that.
Turning the power off, even if you type about it in ALL CAPS, is not enough.
A big detail is that you must discharge any capacitors. THEY will kill you, even with the power off, and sometimes, they are not easy to find.
Don't do this, sheesh, it doesn't sound like a job worth dying from, now, does it.
If the answer to that is NO, then STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND CALL THE BUILDING OWNER, inform him of the sub-standard wiring you found and ask him how you can 'work together' to get it fixed without any inconvienience, like reporting it :)
If your company owns the building, GET PROFESSIONAL HELP 220/440 is not for playing with, and any micro variations WILL cause problems in the future. Our MTF (money transfer faciclity) had a single strand not properly grounded in a secure vault, and everytime then bloody door was slammed it caused a parity error on a mulitprocessing enviroment and forced several hundred transactions to be re-run. Took 2 or 3 weeks and power monitors to locate the short and LOTS OF TIME to correct, minimize it by using people WHO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING.
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
Call your local IBEW and hire a guy that knows what he's doing. For my own home, I've quite often done barter work to help "pay" for any electrical work I couldn't handle myself.
Many of the electrical contractors out there are looking to have a website built. And frankly it's a good trade. Even if they have to "Buy parts" it becomes a business expence and then is deductable, as is any website "billing" I do for them.
It's a win-win situation, and everyone thinks they got the best deal.
But the bottom line is, hire a professional. Your main power line is nothing you want to screw-up.
-Goran
Carpe Scrotum - The only way to deal with your competition.
The mess you describe is probably not something you'd want to tackle yourself. My advice: Get an electrician. You are probably looking at a major rewiring.
If you MUST do it yourself, then for God's sake cut the feed to that panel. If it's a subpanel then find the breaker that controls it and turn it off. If it's a main panel then pulling the electric meter should do the job. They make contactless devices that buzz or light up when they get near the presence of an AC field. Get one of those in case some yahoo decided to bring wires into the panel from some other place other than where you would expect and run it along the panel to make sure it's dead. Back it up with a voltmeter and test all the breakers.
-R
but it's the 60hz that will kill you. 60hz is close to the same frequency that your heart runs on, and can cause you to go into defib. 110V usually isn't powerful enough to knock you off the line, so basically you're screwed.
The higher the voltage, the higher the pain, but playing with 60hz is definitely taking your life into your own hands.
BTW, I in the Navy I used to work on a 3D radar system that was water cooled and had a 220+ pound oil filled capacitor. I'd probably take on the job of rewiring the cabinet, but it would probably cost way more than getting a professional to do it. It's back to the age old question: better to pay a person $100 an hour to code something in a day or 5 people $40 an hour to code it in a week...
What cod piece?
So...your the one that caused THE blackout. You owe me for a pile of melted Klondike bars buddy.
Automatics are for old men
get a hold of the orginal contractor that put that mess in and his company and explain in no uncertain terms you will attempt to get his Electrical contractors license from the state revoked if he does not correct the problems..
If he is with a union get a hold of the union shop steward and raise holy cain..
Do these acts right and you get it fixed fro free..
Don't Tread on OpenSource
If the powers-that-be refuse to approve the project, resign. That day.
I'm voting for taking the rest of the day off, getting a pint, and updating your resume; this has bullshit job written all over it.
Take a tip from MacGyver - when disarming the bomb, always cut the blue wire.
(Or wrap a bit of chewing gum wrapper around the blown fuse and stick it back in the box)
Sounds like you need Niko's Problem Solving Flowsheet.
|
How much do you value your life? Seriously. Untrained people working on AC mains, whether a mere 120 Volts or 220 V, can be risking their lives. Since you do not appear to be a trained and licensed electrician, hire someone who is, preferrable a good one.
You may of broke the law by removing the mains panel. This varies from state to state or province to province so I can't say for sure in your case, but there is always provincial or state laws you need to abide with. They exist to prevent fatal accidents and to reduce risk of fire.
I suspect it will also be cheaper and quicker to hire a professional firm than attempt some random upgrades which if do not result in sudden death or injury, may increase your chances of electrician fires.
Finally, the insurance at your workplace is void if work that requires an licensed electrician is done by someone who is not licensed in your state or province.
So, in my opinion, the only lawful and sensible solution is to hire a licensed eletrician to rewire your distribution panel to replace the inadeque wiring, and do your new wiring.
Some cost savings, aren't worth it.
I rewired my whole house from the power pole down (was 40s era ungrounded knob and tube with 30 amp service) so it can be done but some things will make it easier.
First, find an electrician friend or at least an electrician who is DIY friendly and get a professional opinion. If the insulation in the panel is bad it may be bad in the walls as well. You may not want to know.
While you can do the research and learning yourself, a pro will quickly spot certain gotchas like aluminum wiring without the proper anti-corrosion connectors or grease.
They will also likely spot other things you would probably miss such as certain Federal Pacific Electric panels and breakers (http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/sec1982.htm).
In my case I knew plenty about electricity in general but hiring a friend for a few hours to review the project and teach me the tricks really helped speed the job. He was also able to review the codes. Again, basic electricity wasn't the problem but my friend was intimate with all the issues like where GFCIs are required, required height of outlets, how many are required per wall, allowed location and hole sizes in floor joists, locations where conduit/BX is and is not required.
A lot of the codes sound arbitrary and to a certain extent they are but before dismissing them as silly remember that they represent the accumulated wisdom from the fires, electrocutions, etc. in the past. Building codes are all written in blood.
A pro can show you good tricks. For example, throw away the stupid paper template that comes with the retrofit junction boxes and simply hold a torpedo level against the box, use a tape to measure the proper height and pencil around the box then cut.
Also, before locating a box take a piece of straight coat-hanger wire, chuck it into a drill, and drill it through the baseboard or ceiling wherever you want to locate the box. Then crawl under the house or into the attic and the wire will give you the exact location so you can check for obstructions and you can drill the holes in the right place. Much better than trying to measure plus coathangers are free and the tiny hole is easily filled with a dab of spackle.
If you do get into major rewiring I recommend a few things:
1. Use 20 amp wiring - the material cost is very slightly higher but labor isn't. You have extra capacity and lower resistance losses.
2. More breakers - OK, I went a bit overboard with well over 20 breakers in a 1200 square foot house but running every kitchen outlet to its own breaker cost me very little in time or money and I have no problem running the microwave, coffee maker, waffle maker, toaster along with the fridge and dishwasher.
3. Outlets everywhere. I added outlets in every closet - they are great for powering chargers, adding a burglar alarm, etc. Add them where you might add appliances - I'm finally getting a garage door opener but the install will be easy since the outlet is already in place. While I was up in the attic I added an outlet under the eaves - handy every Christmas. I increased the number ouf outlets 3-4 fold and have used every one.
4. Run 240 to the garage - you will eventually want to run a small welder and even if not you might want to use it for an illegal backfeed from your generator in a blackout (just be sure to kill the main breaker first).
Upgrading to a solid over-engineered electrical system wasn't like getting a new computer or other toy - it was more like finally getting a pebble out of my shoe (no more blown fuses, no more sticking a three prong adapter on the extension cord then tossing it out the bathroom window to be able to mow the back lawn...) It's work but the result is nice.
~~~~~~~
"You are not remembered for doing what is expected of you." - Atul Chitnis
You should register on the Darwin Awards website, cause with that attitude around electricity, your odds of being on the list are better than average.;)
As many others have pointed out, volts has far less to do with it than amperage. But even 110V at the common 15 amps is quite enough to kill you dead. Even if you're NOT standing in the bathtub at the time....
If you're not living on the edge, you're just taking up space!
I can totally relate to this .. I recently renovated a building that was built in the '40s for a new purpose. The electrical was as you mentioned, cloth on wires that scared the hell out of me ! I am an electronic engineer but I had to get a building permit and it required a licensed electrician. It required everything from new breaker boxes to tearing out sections of walls ... not pretty at all but I was able to save some $ by getting a starving contractor to do the grunt work and then getting the licensed electrician .. it cost a bundle to get up to code but my insurance and local codes required it.
If you can't name what the "1-liter bottle" thing is, you will probably wind up killing yourself.
You know what?
a sledgehammer...
This is a definate case where you *MUST* hire an electrician. I emphasize *MUST* because you're probably going to kill yourself in the process.
Most states and communities have laws saying electrical work must be done by a licensed electrician.
I forewarn you though, he's going to want to kill the power to that box while he works. If it's as much of a mess as you're saying, it's more than just the box that needs rewiring. All those old cloth insulated wires go somewhere, probably to more fire hazards throughout your building.
Get a contractor to have a look at it. Where you caused a short just by putting the lid on, you're not far from starting a fire, and be glad those breakers are working, they may have just saved your life, and your equipment.
I'm not saying this because I think work should be farmed out. I'm a firm believer that I can do anything. But, even I have limits. Rewiring a building is a bit beyond what I'm willing to do. Even if I was willing, I know perfectly well it would take too long doing by myself, which will probably be unhealthy for your companies income, if the servers are all down for too long.
Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
and if your boss claims that the budget won't support it, then refer said boss to
/ sharktank/0,4885,83304,00.html
http://www.computerworld.com/departments/opinions
What's the 4 things you have to know to be an electrician? 1) 240 will shock you 2) 480 will kill you 3) 4:30 is quitting time 4) The boss is a son of a bitch Will get you into any electrician's union. What's the one thing you have to know to be a plumber? 1) Shit don't run uphill
"Eve of Destruction", it's not just for old hippies anymore...
No need to repeat what has been said a hundred times alreday (IE don't do it), just buying the right equipment to do the job properly would most certainly cost you more than hiring a professional.
"Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm." - Anonymous
Delegate :)
That's how I'd solve a mess like that. Shit travels downwards!
if you aren't certain that it's safe, don't do it.
i don't think you'll get a trustworthy education in
power wiring from ask slashdot. if you're truly
stuck with doing it yourself, move one device at a
time to an entirely new power distribution point,
one which you are comfortable managing, and dyke off
the old one when you're done.
-I like my women like I like my tea: green-
First, tell the powers that hold the purse strings that they have a dangerous situation on their hands that needs to be handled immediately by a licensed professional electrician with experience in data center wiring. Second, update your resume in the event that they choose to do nothing about the faulty wiring. Actually, you might switch the order of those two around.
I'm inclined to think that management won't elect to sweep this under the rug (or should that be `the raised floor') and that they may be all for getting the situation taken care of. For all you know, some former employee is the one responsible for the mess. But if their departure was due to work that resulted in the current dangerous, situation and management got rid of the culprit but left the problem unsolved, then you may have to take a drastic step. One that depends on how dependent you are on the job and how the local job market has been doing. If it were me, I'd be considering leaving. I'm not about to work for an employer who would allow a dangerous situation like that to continue. I wouldn't be beyond firing off a few anonymous letters to the board of directors, the city building inspectors, OSHA, local labor union leaders (if there are unionized employees on site), etc.
You should not have to work in an environment that is potentially fatal. I wouldn't consider IT a profession where you normally worry about dying during the course of a typical day. You're damned lucky you didn't get your ass electrocuted. Or a fire could have started and/or you might have destroyed a roomful of expensive computing equipment. You really think that management would have said: ``Wow, were you ever lucky and it's a shame about all those computers getting fried.''. No, more likely their reaction would have been more along the lines of: ``You did that? You're fired!''
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
I am a lifelong blue collar guy, gardening, landscaping and construction. I have worked a fair amount part time with electricians. Do it yourself electrical work is ok for outlets, ceiling fans, etc, if you are smart with your hands.
But you need to stay FAR away from the Main Panel unless you are knowledgeable. That thing is dangerous, there ARE many non obvious mistakes you can make if you are not an experienced electrician. You can hurt yourself, burn down the building, damage stuff attached to the electrical system, and if you do something REAL IGNORANT, it is possible (unlikely) you can hurt someone working for the power company outside the house.
This is coming from a Gung Ho!!! Do It Yourselfer/ Shade Tree Mechanic
HenryJamesFeltus.com
Don't flag, lock it.
Get a keyed lock with one key.
Turn it off, lock it out, carry the key while you work.
That is the ONLY way to do it.
"Please send your address and phone so we can spam the *uck out of you. Also please send your email for 2000 spam messages a day,
Thanks and Screw all yall,
A spaming *astard"
-jeff
Don't have one of those? THAT'S BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT FARKIN' QUALIFIED TO DO THE WORK!
If you have not had the correct training, you CAN NOT safely lock out equipment. Sure. You locked it out. You stuck your wiggy in the wall socket to make sure you got a buzz. You tested each terminal and they were all dead. You started stripping wires. You reached way into the cabinet to unscrew some terminals in the back. It got dark and the building's outside lighting circuit turned on. Guess what? Someone ran the lighting circuit through the box.
oopsie.
You don't know what you're doing. Neither does the person who "told you how" to do this safely. Hire a professional.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, it doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
And then report it to OSHA. No reason for anybody to die over some PHB being a cheapskate.
A electrical fire will put an even bigger dent in your "budget." You MUST hire a COMPENTENT electrican. (We had to replace gear went an incompotent wired out new 110 outlets 220. The Boss was "saving money") Comercial wiring is not where you cut corners. It's not a DIY thing. Not having it done by a certified professional may also void your insurance as well.
As you can see I don't care about my karma.
What you don't know could kill you!
Even opening the panel is dangerous because a flashover could occur, possibly triggered by dust kicked up by opening it, and send hot metal flying into your face. Hire a qualified electrician to do the job!
I'd also recommend the "refusal to work" to your fellow employees.
Furby Stress Testing. Read and learn.
When you are referring to a singular subject (or object, as the case may be), e.g., "somebody," please refrain from the plural possesive "their." The correct usage is, "it cut his/her/that person's face next to his/her/that person's eye."
This has been a public service announcement.
it's not the volts it's the amps that getcha
Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
What, you're scared of 220 Volts ? When we were growing up, we walked 200 miles through six feet of snow, wearing no shoes, and we repaired 2000 volt circuits with our bare hands. :-)
You call that tough. When I was a kid, we didn't even have hands.
I used to write software at a high-energy physics lab. The technicians would put padlocks that only they had keys for on switches when they powered something down. Removing someone else's lock was grounds for immediate dismissal. If someone accidentally left a lock on something, they had to personally remove it or (you guessed it) face dismissal. They took these rules very seriously.
Stand on a piece of ply wood, keep your free arm at your side, and wear linesman's gloves, use insulated tools, and have a strong friend with a two by four ready to whack you a good one out of contact if you contact anything. On second thought call an electrician, that is what they are trained to do.
Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.
If the company can afford a new Sun SAN or similar, then they can afford to have a profeddional electrician fix the incoming lines and put in a new breaker box. This can't be more than 3 days of work unless they need to rerun all the lines.
Spend the money now before a mysterious power outage causes data loss.
get extra cash with side project -- 60 dollars an hour
hire an electrician - 60 dollars an hour
Not dying from elctrocution -- priceless
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
You could wind up in a very bad situation. Let's say you "mess with" the power panel and then there is a fire. Let's also suppose that in this fire someone dies. City inspectors determine that the work you did was not up to code and caused the fire. You could go to jail for homicide. If that isn't enough to disuade your boss from letting/requiring you to "mess with" the power panel. Then tell him he could also go to jail in the above circumstance. It has happened before. Do a search on Tyson chicken fire.
It's OK to wire lights, and wire new circuits.
When it comes to the mains, hire an electrician. I recently had this done to my home: our main box was over 40 years old, way to small, and somewhat dangerous.
In addition to getting a service upgrade, we had an electrician:
1) Put in a new meter socket for a 200 amp upgrade. (The power company will attach the rest, along with a new meter.)
2) Run new main lines from the socket to a new, up to code, panel.
3) Rewire all exising circuits into new panel.
4) Test everything.
The total cost, parts and labor: $650.
Granted, we found a very affordable professional (only $35 an hour). I would have gladly paid over twice what he charged. The point is that it is worth it. And this is coming from a fervent do-it-yourselfer.
1. Buy/setup new power system
2. Move systems over one by one
3. Repeat as needed
4. Disconnect old system from power all at once
5. Trash bins out back
6. Proffitt??
#6495ED - cornflower blue
But around here I'm pretty sure that asking an unqualified worker to go playing around in an electrical deathtrap would be a violation of the labour code. At the very least the WCB (Workers Compensation Board) would be breathing down their neck for so endangering an employee.
Have you asked management about having somebody handle it? Most upper-levels will hear this and put "potential of death" together with "potential for big lawsuit" if nothing else. Many do value the lives of their employees as well, if not their sanity.
More "Ask Slashdot" questions:
1. How do I defuse a live bomb?
2. How do I clean an industrial sized meat grinder?
3. How do I remove my own appendix?
And most dangerous of all:
What's under that dress?
Boycott everything - they're all trying to fuck you one way or another
Get one box that can run off much less power transfer your critical stuff to it, rent it if you have to. Stick a temp power source anywhere you can if you can, if not try farming out for the fix time. Shut the mess off and get the power fixed, by a real electrician after you have mapped your total current needs. Having the needs identified first greatly reduces the install repair time and costs. If you do anything else I hope you have a really understanding insurance policy and good business coverage!
OH THE SHAME I fell off the wagon and use sigs again!
Call in a professional, and check to see if union workers are required for your building. I knew a guy who got his electrical liscense just so that he could plug in a server into the wall. It was union work only. You said you are on a tight budget, pay for the service anyway. They will get the job done quicker than you (and probably pay for themselves in downtime), and have insurance (you checked to see if they had insurance, right?) if something were to go wrong.
Victory is gained, not in knowing your opponents next move, but in preempting them.
Hey, maybe one of the lights is out on your FDDI ring...
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
fixed a fuse with tinfoil
I've done that -- not a house fuse, but the "slow-blow" fuse protecting the motor in a (now ancient) Decwriter dot matrix terminal. (As I said, ancient technology). It was late, I was fixing some code, and a piece of paper jammed the print head and the fuse blew. No spare fuses. So I got a foil-wrapped chocolate bar out of the vending machine, wrapped some foil around the burnt-out fuse, replaced it and kept coding.
And yes, left a note to remind myself or whoever used the terminal next to replace it with a proper fuse.
-- Alastair
THAT IS NOT FUCKING FUNNY!!!
I'm off worse though, I'm forced to make a small database in Access ... :(
Hate me!
Piss on it. Depending on yor gender you will last 1 or 2 seconds before catching fire.
Do it officially, so your boss will have no right to fire you after that. And do it right after your boss rejects your suggestion to hire the qualified professional. After it's rejected don't burgen with your boss about this, just got to that comission for it, or you will be fired before you can do anything about it.
Less is more !
The worker can then be fired for "not being a team player" or "posessing an uncooperative attitude."
Don't you have any interns at your place?
No, no... temps.
The coolest voice ever.
Wasn't it a chewing gum wrapper. I tried it with a 9V battery circuit once, it didn't work.
Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.
it's not the volts it's the amps that getcha
God, I knew someone was going to say that. Ohm's law... I=V/R. If the voltage goes up, so does the current. They are not mutually exclusive.
Yoda of Borg am I! Assimilated shall you be! Futile resistance is, hmm?
Obviously the answer is "Hire a qualified electrician."
He'll probably give you two options -- "Expensive" and "Really expensive".
Like software there are two possible ways of fixing this problem. "The right way which is rewiring the whole thing" or "The cheap way which is just fixing whatever is shorting things out, but not messing with the rest."
Professional electricians are slightly different than software programmers though in that they do have to make it safe.
Invalid Checksum. Retrying.
I think that everyone here is pretty much saying the same thing: "IT IS STUPID TO TRY TO DO THIS YOURSELF!"
I have been on the recieving end of a 220v shock because someone flipped a breaker on a circuit after someone else did a home-brew wiring job. Had I picked up the wire with two hands rather than one, I would be dead and decomposing nicely by now.
I have done my fair share of homebrew jobs and after a number of lessons learned the hard way. I now have a lot of respect for electricity and use a great deal of caution with any wiring job.
Wiring something from scratch is one thing, what you describe is a DEATH TRAP!!! DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT!!
I suspect that even an experienced professional would be a bit gun-shy with the setup that you have.
[And yes, I have replaced contact swtiches in my microwave, serviced the non user-servicable parts in my TV, swapped parts in my computer's power supply, re-wired my car, and a lot of other dumb things. I have some idea of what I am doing, but I wouldn't even consider doing that wiring job for a nano-second! Even I am not that deranged.]
Well, you didn't say so but it sounds like your business is in a building that is owned, not rent, leased, etc. If you are rent, leasing, etc. in most cases it is the responsibility of the owner to maintain the electrical system up to code.
Electrical codes and responsibilities from state to state but the building owner is the responsibile party.
Now if you have issues with the power coming in and the main it self, in addition to have 220 or 480 service, you'll need to actually work with two people: the supply power source and an electrician.
Most areas have an Electricians Union that can be a good source for reasonable rates and a certain level of accountable for the work.
Most likely they will recommend a few solutions that might cost a bit but are good ideas (isolating the mains between voltages, power sources, etc). A good electrician will understand that you can't be without power for a prolonged amount of time and working within a budget.
It probably is not as costly as you think, depending on the building codes, etc. that you may need to follow.
You'll also have to be sure you follow any city laws that might require permits, etc.
/opens dodgy electrical panel and kills self.
1.) modded up result for the most "correct" answer.
2.) modded up results for the most "ridiclous" humorus answer.
3.) modded up seperate [but related] discusions.
I'd also like to see mod comments for "Intresting links", "technically correct" answers, etc.. I'd be cool to allow users to pre-mod their own posts so users looking for a specific fact can find it quickly. [ie. humor, links, information, etc]
hey slashdot, I know I should probably get a qualified doctor to help, but ...
;)
you see, I've got the appendix removed, but I can't quite see if the best way to suture the wound closed
is with an overhand knot, or underhand. Can someone please give me some advise (quickly)
Oh - and I don't have any sterile sutures, is it ok to use my mom's embroidery floss if I wash it first?
THANKS!
Go to your local courthouse and offer to defend someone accused of capital murder, pro bono. This course of action might not cure your electrical problem, but at least Slashdot readers will have no problem with it.
I did two years of electrical engineering. That's enough for me to know just how much I don't know, and to call in somebody when I'm in over my head. I'll play around with 5V DC to my heart's content, and I'll happily flip a circuit breaker back on if it blows (once the problem's been sorted, naturally), but when it comes to mains power
Disclaimer: IAAE but IANAIEEEE
1 - Shut down the Mains...
2 - Make sure no one touch the power on switch (Put someone armed there, or a mouse trap)
3 - Open this mess...
4 - Disassemble it (ie get everything out of the box... clean it)
5 - Reassemble (the most possible) out of the box
using CORRECT GAUGE WIRE (disclaimer: you will mess this up... use THICK wire )
6 - Replace it and reconnect it...
7 - Provide a funeral service to the guy who got stuck in the mouse trap or got shot while trying to turn on the mains...
8 - PROFIT!!!
how long until
Walking uphill, both ways, with steel plates on our shoes, sopping wet!
You're messin' with my Zen Thing, man.....
So because of you i'm working overtime since last Thrusday!, you bastard.
[alk]
Try doing it with a bullet - you know immediately when the circuit is overloaded then!
:-(
And no, I'm not kidding - as an auto electrician I've seen this more than once
You are in a twisty maze of processor lines, all alike.
There is a lot of hype here.
Its been said already, but it cant be said too much.
I just wired a major remodel of our home, myself, and understand what I'm doing running a wirign circuit.. but I hired a pro to wire the main panel and subpanel and especially to hook it up to the feed, and to check my work. Doing this wrong can kill you. It can kill someone else. And "wrong" can be something simple and easy to overlook that you wouldn't think matters.
Hire a pro to come look at it, immediately. It aint worth the potential tragedy and legal issues if something goes wrong.
You can expect lots of sissy comments from posters afraid to improve themselves by learning something new. Ignore them.
Roll up your sleeves, don some rubber gloves, and start by straightening out that mess.
If you've ever made a really clean rackmount you know what to do. Make all the wires go in straight lines with nice ties keeping them together.
Now, I'm sure you've seen a movie where the protagonist has to defuse a bomb by cutting the correct colored wire, often in conditions that impair his color perception. This is very similar. You should use the same basic strategy, which is hover the wire cutters over each wire and drip sweat into that bubbling, crackling maze of death. Try not to flinch when each drop of sweat causes an electrical arc to sparc towards your face. At the last second when you think the entire box is about the explode (determined by sound) quickly cut the wire that seemed LEAST LIKELY. Note it is very important that you do NOT cut the wire that you were hovering over for a long time because it seemed right. That is the wrong wire and cutting it will kill you. Cut the one next to it.
Next add 'High Voltage Electrical work' to your resume and ask for a raise!
- For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat
...while waiting for the article to be posted did you (the poster) go ahead and try and fix this on thursday? Are you the reason the power grid overloaded?
a recently unemployed power grid manager in Ohio?
I have installed wiring in two large houses (mine)
and I still will not work in a hot panel.
It is silly. One wrong move and you're toast.
You may not even have 220 V, some commercial installations run 3 phase and pull off legs of 270V.
Unless you can kill the panel , I would not even remove the cover.
NOTE: In many commercial instalations pulling the meter will not kill the panel, also watch out for
two way feeds. You can kill one but the other kills you.
After 40 years in amateur radio I have a very healthy respect for things that go ZAP.
Lethal voltages are just that , lethal.
This entire account assumes it was wired corectly in the first place... and it likely wasn't, or it wouldnt be such a mess now.
Matching wire guage is NOT an adequate way to pick the correct gauge of wire; it might have been inadequate to beging with. Replacing wires, or even breakers, wont catch any potential corrosion in the bus bars and connections , and won't catch potential material mismatches (read dhogaza's account of the copper-aluminum corrosion fire elsewhere in this thread).
Hire a qualified professional, IMMEDIATELY, and keep everyone alive.
Some places require locks and tags to be sure the power doesn't accidently get turned back on while you're working.
:) Luckly, I didn't even work in a department that did physical repairs. We were just warned so some idiot wouldn't turn on a conveyor (or whatever) that was intentionally shut down.
I spent some time at a Walmart warehouse. Big facility, lots of cool conveyor belts. They made a *HUGE* point of tagging and locking anything you're working on. I guess it only makes it slightly more hazardous that all their racks are metal, so if you have a main wire disconnected, and it was touching the metal of the racks, you could make an electrical hazard out of a piece of metal 3 stories high and a couple hundred feet long.
Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
Everyone is telling you to hire an electrician, a professional. Take their advice. Don't try to do this yourself and don't put the cover back on and just "forget" about this. If the wiring is that bad, that a slight jiggle pops half of the breakers, there are already serious problems and it needs to be fixed *NOW*, regardless of your need for an additional 220V line.
What about two wire split phase to a household? My service mains enters the house as two 120V hot lines (180 degrees out of phase, I believe) and a ground. My meter claims 242V AC RMS across the two hot lines.
I think one source of the "220V" you often seen is the doubling of the oldschool "110V" terminology.
Also, how does one get 480V from common commercial three phase? 3x120 = 360.
Hubris writes:
I've been having an intense aching pain in the left side of my chest for the last few hours. I also feel a tightness in my chest,and some nausea. Over the past few months I've become winded walking up a flight of stairs. I've got some experience with medicine, as I treated myself for a cold a couple times with rest and chicken soup. I'm on a really tight budget, but Heart Pain For Dummies isn't really helpfull. What do all you "I can do anything and everything" slashdot types do when you have frightening medical symptoms?
AccountKiller
If you are asking this question I would suspect that you don't have:
* A permit
* A electricians license
* A copy of your jurisdictions electrical code
If you go ahead anyway you risk:
* Voiding your structure's insurance
* Violating building code
* Violating fire code
* Violating other parts of the law that say you need an electricians license.
* In the US, really pissing off OSHA
* Getting your local building inspector to condem the building.
* Voiding your workman comp (it is outside of the scope of work you are insured for)
Hire an electrician. Your local building inspector will throw the book at you.
Now why do you think so much fuss is made? Ever consider the risk you pose to yourself, you other co-workers, the other people who reside in your building who don't want their bussiness to die because you want to play electrician? The firemen and EMT's who will risk their lives to save you? The insurance company who has to pay (but probally won't) and their customers who will have to pay higher fees when you litigate, lose, and have no funds from which they can recover their lawyer fees?
Perhaps in some jurisdictions you can do your own electrical w/out a license, but only in limited situations like single family dwellings and the building inspector will rightfully inspect every little detail, unlike the cursorary inspections the pros get.
I must say, it is articles like this that will cure me of my slashdot addiction.
How do I moderate the Topic down as a troll?
Big pansy! You call not having hands tough. When I was a kid we didn't even have bodies.
But in the _real_ world, the employer can spend so much time and money making life difficult that it would have been better to be fired.
Geesh...
If its beyond your ablity, dont even think of doing it yourself.
you could easly die, or burn the place down since you obviously dont have a good enough clue to be doing that sort of electrical work.
YOu dont live near me i hope.. *shudder*
---- Booth was a patriot ----
You will save yourself a lot of headaches downstream. There's a time to DIY and there's a time when experience is essential.
Think of it this way: if the wiring had been done properly before, you would not be having this problem now.
--- Ban humanity.
I find that the easiest way to solve cable messes is to organize the entire setup. Start by labelling every cable with it's input and output at both ends of the cable. Then, figure out how things could be best bundled together.
Then, bundle it all together using TechFlex sleeving. It will organize things tremendously and will make solving routing issues considerably easier.
Jory
Lots of comments here mostly ranging from the "you're an idiot" to "get a pro". No need to restate the obvious, so I'll just add my personal notes:
First, if you can, get a pro instead. That being said, there's a lot of good you can usually do without a pro's help. Playing with mains is not the thing to do if you're an armchair electrician like myself. Those sorts of things I usually leave to them. You can, however, do work on the non-mains wiring without seriously endangering yourself. I managed to wire my entire house to the box after the mains were properly installed and am quite living to talk about it.
Here's the problem with mains: They're either a) not breakered if you're past the mains breaker, or b) the mains breaker is too high to stop anything from frying you where you stand. One thing you definately want to avoid besides touching the mains is cutting them. If you cut it on the service side of the mains breakers, oftentimes they're not breakered back down the line. The line back to the transformer will glow very pretty red and probably catch on fire, depending on whether or not the transformer blows up right away or later. It can be impressive, I don't recommend it.
Work with one hand in the box when attaching wires to/from the breakers themselves. One hand behind the back will keep a path from going across your heart. Avoid standing in kiddie pools while working on the box. Strip the wires only right before you are going to hook them into the breakers, that way you don't accidentally make contact early. Shut off everything you can before playing in the box. If you can't shut off the mains, have a person near you to whack you away with a board or call 911. If you can shut of the mains, you're reasonably protected, just use a voltmeter to make sure.
Common sense prevails here. If it makes you shaky and nervous to get in the box, get a pro. Otherwise, watch yourself and keep your head on, and you can do some of the work without harm.
Blog,Twitter
I'm from the UK, we have 230v - and from past experience you can follow three simple steps:
1) Plug everything into one extension lead, one of those bar ones, you know the type...
2) Plug extension lead into nearest socket. (If extension lead does not reach the socket, join on some suitable wire with sellotape. Xmas tree lights wire will do fine, but be sure to twist the wires, not solder)
3) It's only 110/220v, wrap lots of tape round everything... that should sort it... then go find an intern / office junior, and ask them to switch on your extension lead.
Seriously though - your big 'bottle' is the splice where the cores of the cable are seperated, it will be filled with a resin - that stuff sounds old! I've worked on 230 / 415v equipment that sounds scarily familiar - I will bodge almost anything, but seriously - go get an electrician, but make sure you keep an eye on him.. some do take the piss, and will charge you for parts not required / work not done, as joe public have no idea what they are talking about half the time.
Get quotes from at least 3 different contractors!
...and your attempt at a Darwin Award. The fact that you even considering tackling such a thing astounds me. I dropped a fork into a garbage disposal once, and while I was fishing around for it, with my eyes on the power switch to make sure no evil gnomes or ghouls snuck up and flicked it on, my brain damned near jumped out of my body and ran away in a fit of self-preservation instinct.
If curiosity overpowering survival instinct is a geek trait, then I am out-geeked.
It's nothing but crumpled porno and Ayn Rand.
I wouldn't be suprised if this guy showed up tomorrow for work, and it's all a big smoking mess.
Had this happened at my company (intel) and you reported what you just did the following would have happened (minimum).
1.) Severe discipline to you. You opened an energized high voltage area without proper electrical Lock Out/Tag out. Had you been an onsite contractor, you would have had your badge pulled and kindly escorted off the premises by two burly rent-a-cops.Employee may have kept their job with a warning and probationary plan. But they prboably would have fired you anyway.
2.) Company safety stand down. That means people at no less than 4 sites with billions of dollars of product would have been brought to a halt.
3.) Big stupid meetings. I hate big stupid meetings.
I exagernate not, becuase people here have been kind enough to provide a working example. One of those was nice enough to stick a screwdrive into a Live 408V 3-phase supply on one of our toolsets in New Mexico. The metal panel he connected to went molten and exploded back at him. Fortune smiled upon him that day as he only had shrapnel holes in his clean-room suit. A couple inches the other way and he was a Darwin Candidate.
Cthulhu for president!
Basically, don't fsck with the stuff unless you know what you're doing.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
This thread should be known as 'how many different ways can slashdotters say Hire an Electrician".
Also known as "I'm going to pile on this thread"
And to think we normally claim we're not lawyers. Here is a whole 'nother field we can claim we're not experts in.
Not only are you a troll, but you're a murderous troll.
That's really not funny.
bug.gd: error search engine. Humanity working together to solve all errors.
Do you know what a Phase is? As in 3 or 5 Phase Supply.
:-)
;-)
No? Don't even try to look at the job, do be honest go on a course now and make sure your each line of racks is on the same phase. (Also why power should aways be brought into the every rack and you should never connect a plug from one rack into a socket in another.) Connection across a phase is far worse that between live and neutral
Do you have certification (so if someone sues you because of a wiring mistake you can prove you atleast should have been working on the supply), and Also insurance so when you are sued it does not flush your complete life.
No? Then you should not be doing anything between the supply and socket. Yes sparkies cost alot but they are payed to take the risks for you, and leave the site in a setup that its quite difficult to kill yourself power wise.
Third and final is your company going to pay for 2 people to have these skills, you will probably find it is illegal to work on power or cabling (under the floor) alone. You need a buddy to raise the alarm and who knows what to do when you do have a problem.
In my life I have had a 230 volt shock and a 5KV shock from power supplies, both times it really hurt and I was lucky and I knew what I was doing and still made a mistake. Anyway my point is this is a high current supply system and you don't know what your doing. You accidently connect yourself to it the breakers probably will not even fire and your dead electricity is not a toy, I am suprise they have not banned it yet
If you really do what do to learn how to do this, get yourself on a proper cause, they are not too long, then you will be qualified to do it
But it might be just cheaper to hire someone else to do the work, its the orginal idea behind that of a "contractor" is someone with skills that are difficult to learn or spensive to maintain and you do not need to have access to them all the time. There by you can save money by not having to pay the "full cost" for the skills cos other employers of the contractor will effectively be sharing the price or the skills, and the contractor can change a premium for the short duration of the job finally and most importantly 10 or your man days could be supplied by 10 contractors in 1 day.
You really wanna save money, learn what the job should require, then collect estimates and then question the pricing and reasoning for it or pay one company to vet the bids from others for a fee but not allow them to bid for the contract themselves, you can even get the to check the safety of the work afterwards.
James
That's what volt meters are for....
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
Yeah, I'm a little late for the party here. However, since I've seen electric utility safety films that make the worst drivers-ed film look tame, I've just got to say...
Sweet merciful crap, man! Please send Slashdot another note tomorrow that you hired somebody who fixed this - so we can see the report in a Slashback, and not be worrying that you're in our building somewhere.
Sweet merciful crap! I hope to goodness you're trolling.
In summary... Sweet merciful crap!
"Consider yourself a member of a virtual corporation with Mr. Torvalds as your Chief Executive Officer." - Linux Advocac
If this has been allowed to go on for 20 years then it's only a matter of time before that company kills someone anyway. I'd resign, then wait for the CEO to be sent to jail after the building burns down and someone dies (hopefully the CEO - cheapskates like that deserve everything they get).
Some of this advice is going to sound familiar, but bear with me. My fellow Slashdotters have left out a few important steps in the process.
Step 1. Wet yourself.
You heard me. Just open the mains door, take a few steps back, take a good look at that nightmare, and let that bladder go. This is important in that the professional electrician (see step 3) seeing the trail of urine from here to the main power switch (step 2) will be relieved to discover that you have some grasp of the gravity of the situation.
Step 2. Turn all the power off.
All of it. There should be a big switch or something. Turn it off. If there is some way of keeping people away (lock, armed guard, rabid rottweiler) use it.
Step 3. Call an electrician.
Yes, you've heard it before, and when this question gets posted again you'll hear it again. A sign of wisdom is realizing when a job is too much for your skills and you, good Sir, are in over your head. All the instruction manuals for wiring say that there are times to call a competent electrician, someone who does this for a living and has been certified and everything. Guess what time it is?
There are an insane number of posts replying to this question, and the overwhelming majority involve you calling an electrician. Slashdot speaks with one voice on no other subject, but on this, good Sir, we beseech you. Call an electrician!
No Longer a Menace to Society.
Alexandria Morrigan born 2/22/01 l. 20.5in wt. 7 lbs. 5 oz.
um....he didnt say that.
go look at your local wherever the fuck you can buy a taser where you live.
it will not kill you.
its got a fucking LOT of volts(or potential)
but a very small amperage(or # of electrons that pass a given point per second)
but a relativly small (110 V) voltage at high amperage has been known to kill and maim many an idiot.
(leaving aside the fact that 60Hz is just about the worst freq. to ocilize(sp?) the waveform at if your goal is to get the fuck shocked out of you and live.
Collecting data is only the first step toward wisdom. But sharing data is the first step toward community
If you're talking about not having a 220-volt outlet nearby, you're probably American. But you're calling it "mains power", which is usually a Commonwealth thing. Are you by chance Canadian?
In most of the US, at least if you're in a city or a medium-heavily-populated county, there's probably a building code electrical code that says who's allowed to work on what kind of electricity. Usually in a home, you're allowed to work on sockets and switches inside existing electrical boxes, and almost everywhere you're not allowed to touch the main power feed yourself, and in some jurisdictions you can install new electrical boxes and plug-in circuit breakers yourself and in some you can't. (In New Jersey, you can negotiate with the building inspectors about not noticing things, but Darwin usually wants bigger bribes than they do...) In commercial buildings, you're more likely to need a license.
If you're required to use a licensed electrician for something, and you do it yourself, various Bad Things can happen, and if you do it your self and something goes wrong, more Bad Things _will_ happen. You do not want this... And you said that it looked ugly in there - this significantly increases the chances that if you do work on it yourself, something will go wrong, or perhaps Terribly Wrong, either because it really is an ugly mess or because it's beyond your skill level or both. And if you're renting your building instead of owning it yourself, your lease probably mentions some of the requirements. If you have fire insurance or liability insurance, those contracts probably also require licensed electricians for cases like this.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
This one is way more advanced. Just be careful where you point it.
But in the _real_ world, the employer can spend so much time and money making life difficult that it would have been better to be fired.
And, at least if they fire you you get a severance. Right?
Actually, I was shocked by 220 volts in an accident. When I say shocked, I mean I was held on to it for approximately 45 to 60 seconds. I don't know which was worse, the resulting heart attack symptoms or having to explain to very dumb doctors why I couldn't let go and that 220 is a lot to suck up. To the original poster, don't be such a moron, call a damn electrician already. Besides frying yourself, did you even consider the liability issues? Guess who'll be investigated if the building burns down.
a tech left this neat little device at the last job I had. he didn't come back for it, so they kept it. anyways, it was a wand, and when you waved it by electricity, it glowed red. much safer than "touch and jerk".
Interesting, this is essentially how public key encryption works.
The problem they're trying to solve is that a message gets sent through a public channel (such as the postal service) without either party giving up their private key and without the data ever being unencrypted until it's safely in the hands of the recipient. The best explanation of it I've heard goes like this.
"Alice writes a message and locks it in a chest with her padlock. This chest has holes (hasps) for two separate padlocks. [Note: no reason it can't have n hasps, as in the wiring example.] She sends the locked box to Bob through the mail.
Bob places his own padlock through the remaining hasp, and mails it back to Alice.
Alice removes her own padlock and mails the box, with just Bob's padlock on it, back to Bob.
Bob removes his own padlock and reads the message."
Of course, this is all being done over TCP instead of the post, and with math instead of padlocks, but you get the idea.
None of this has anything to do with a wiring mess, but the similarities are striking.
It's rare that you're presented with a knob whose only two positions are Make History and Flee Your Glorious Destiny.
...but in case you missed it, here it is again - HIRE A GODDAMN ELECTRICIAN!!! DIY networking and A/V wiring is one thing, but when you start mucking around with stuff that can *easily* kill you or destroy that precious new Sun rack if you fuck up, the only answer is to call a qualified, insured, professional.
Best case scenario, if you do it yourself and get *everything* right, your business only gets closed down and/or fined the next time the building inspector drops by. Investors hate that.
(yes, I am an electrician)
If all the world's a stage, anyone who says they want better lighting spends far too much time in a dark theatre.
I don't want to be a "Redundant SOB" but I think it's safe to say that you need professional. Thankfully you have the entire Slashdot community here to save you from any misfortune. Let's keep the world safe Slashdoters.....
What a lovely example of why not to take advice here......
>Ohm's law... I=V/R. If the voltage goes up, so >does the current. They are not mutually >exclusive.
True but...
Current is also inversely proportional to resistance. If voltage remains steady and resistance goes up current goes down.
We were all born to be good conductors of electricity.
The key too handling high voltages safely, is to become a good resistor.
Please hire a qualified electrician to straightenthat mess out or call the inspector.
I hope you can get it working again. And this time, move the porn to a more stable computer immediately!
"Has [being a kidnapped teenage girl, raped repeatedly for months] changed you?" - Katie Couric to Elizabeth Smart
Mods, please don't mod me down for being redundant -- this guy is in WAY over his head. #1 -- HIRE A PROFESSIONAL ELECTRICIAN. #2 -- HIRE A PROFESSIONAL ELECTRICIAN. HE KNOWS HOW TO PROPERLY LOCKOUT/TAGOUT THE POWER. #3 -- HIRE A PROFESSIONAL ELECTRICIAN. HE HAS THE PROPER TOOLS FOR THE JOB. #4 -- HIRE A PROFESSIONAL ELECTRICIAN. HE WILL KNOW EXACTLY HOW TO FIX IT, AND CAN EVEN PROPOSE WAYS TO REPLACE IT TO MAKE IT A LOT SAFER! #5 -- HIRE A PROFESSIONAL ELECTRICIAN. HE KNOWS THE LOCAL BUILDING CODES; CHANCES ARE A REPAIR OF THIS MAGNITUDE MEANS YOU HAVE TO BRING THE REPAIRED UNIT UP TO TODAY'S CODE, NOT THE CODE OF 20 YEARS AGO. In short: HIRE A PROFESSIONAL ELECTRICIAN. Don't put your life on the line. I guarantee, as much as the electrician may cost, it is worth it for you to have years left to enjoy this precious gift we call "existence."
I think you are confused; flashover is not the same as an arc blast, and it won't happen from dust in the electrical panel, unless you keep your computers in a grain elevator, wood shop, or similar combustible dust-laden environment.
Yes, hire someone, but in the mean time:
1) was the cracking sound like breaking- plastic cracking, or was it the sound of the breakers being thrown inadvertantly by the position of the cover. While I'll not encourage you to try flipping said breakers back on, one at a time, it is possible.
2) taking the cover off should not be a normal employee responsibility, but it should not cause your equipment to break either.
3) the litre bottle size reference indicates that you probably have something beyond normal power there, so run.
4) never do anything at your employer's place of business that you WOULD do at home - this applies to most everything (getting drunk, sex, electrical wiring)
5) Don't call OSHA (if you are in the states), your employer has violated many things by letting you do this.
Faith is the very antithesis of reason, injudiciousness a critical component of spiritual devotion. Jon Krakauer
Mods, please don't mod me down for being redundant -- this guy is in WAY over his head.
#1 -- HIRE A PROFESSIONAL ELECTRICIAN.
#2 -- HIRE A PROFESSIONAL ELECTRICIAN. HE KNOWS HOW TO PROPERLY LOCKOUT/TAGOUT THE POWER.
#3 -- HIRE A PROFESSIONAL ELECTRICIAN. HE HAS THE PROPER TOOLS FOR THE JOB.
#4 -- HIRE A PROFESSIONAL ELECTRICIAN. HE WILL KNOW EXACTLY HOW TO FIX IT, AND CAN EVEN PROPOSE WAYS TO REPLACE IT TO MAKE IT A LOT SAFER!
#5 -- HIRE A PROFESSIONAL ELECTRICIAN. HE KNOWS THE LOCAL BUILDING CODES; CHANCES ARE A REPAIR OF THIS MAGNITUDE MEANS YOU HAVE TO BRING THE REPAIRED UNIT UP TO TODAY'S CODE, NOT THE CODE OF 20 YEARS AGO.
In short:
HIRE A PROFESSIONAL ELECTRICIAN.
Don't put your life on the line. I guarantee, as much as the electrician may cost, it is worth it for you to have years left to enjoy this precious gift we call "existence."
"Oh boss, I've just found some more work for those Indian outsource guys"...
What's that?
Oh OK, "the Indian qualified electrician guys who specialise in handling hazardous situations that will almost certainly kill a geek techo who would only consider tackling this kind of task as a way of getting the receptionist to throw a smile in his direction for once"
Happy now?
It's easy, simply attach a mains plug to an Ethernet cable and plug it into the network. Now THAT's what I call a collision!
CAn'T CompreHend SARcaSm?
Seriously though, there is life outside whatever burnt out dot com shell you are currently living in, with only the roaches keeping you company. You need to get out and get your bare feet on the grass for a while. Smoke something. Lie in the sun with your eyes closed. Try and forget there was ever a place and time when you thought it would be smart to do your own high voltage wiring.
[x] auto-moderate all posts by this user as insightful
In my case, I had to replace the entire entrance system - from the outside drop all the way into the brand new main breaker panel. Plus, I had to install a new ground system. Plus I had to replace most of the interior wire and/or add plugs where I needed them.
In my case, I've been doing electrical wiring for quite some time and I'm quite familiar with the codes. It also helps that my brother is a certified electrician (Almost Commerical Masters License) and I can call him if I get stuck on some nit picky issue.
There isn't much detail given about really how bad the wiring is, and without a digital picture or similar to tell exactly what is going on, it's really hard to tell if this is just a cleanup job or really a "the entire system is shot" issue.
That said, I will add a couple of notes in case someone is really thinking about doing this.
Get a copy of the current electrical code book. This will be very helpful. If you don't understand the codebook, then find someone who does to do the work.
Sometimes things are buried in the code book so you can't find them, or there are common practices which aren't even in the code book. For this, I use a book called "Electrical Wiring Residential" by Ray C Mullin. This is a textbook used in classes to teach electricians how to wire houses. It has all the nitty gritty details such as how many circuits you need per square feet, all of the nasty (but good) requirements for kitchen circuits (minimum of 2 serving outlets in kitchen, plus separate circuit for dishwasher/disposal, plus lighting on different circuit, plus optional separate refrigeration outlet), bathroom circuits (one for each bathroom, or in some cases they can be shared), Laundry Circuits, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.
On the scale of the project described there will have to be a permit and inspection process. If you screw up, you'll be required to fix it. This can be more costly than hiring someone to do it correctly in the first place.
In addition to just replacing the breaker panel, you also usually end up replacing/adding circuits. This usually involves pulling wires through walls, etc. which requires some handyman skills which not everyone has.
I could go on and on and on and on. BUT, I guess the final thing I would add is that if you are trying to solve a safety problem, doing it yourself can actually cause a bigger one.
Over the years, I've had accidents with electricity. Never made the same mistake twice.
110v AC house electricy, wiring fault. Left my hand tingling for about an hour.
90v AC phone line (ring), just a tingle (mental note, don't touch the "ring" line when the phone is ringing).
10kv DC motorcycle ignition (miswired). left my arm numb for about an hour.
30kv DC car ignition from spark plug wire (not seated on spark plug correctly). left my arm numb for a few hours.
300kv stun gun with a wiring fault. Zapped out of the handle rather than the business end.
None of these were for very long, which is much of why I survived. All of them, the muscles where the power was flowing cramped up. In other words, if I had been holding onto something, I wouldn't have been able to let go. If you're grabbing what you thought was a dead wire, and found it to be live, you may not be able to let go, no matter how much you want to. People get dead all the time like this, most didn't do it intentionally.
If you mess up, and leave a wiring fault, you'll can be criminally neglegant for someone's death if you electricute them, or start a fire. Electricity can be dangerous. Don't rewire a building, unless you know what your doing (trained, certified, and licensed). If you're not comfortable with letting someone else to do the work because they may do a bad job, stay around and watch their work. Ask questions, "Why aren't you grounding that circuit? Is just electrical tape appropriate there? Is 24 gauge wire right for a high load circuit?".
Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
I lived in a rented house in college that had what turned out to be dangerous wiring.
LESSON 1: Polarity
Here's a cool tip for you. When wiring up electrical outlets, if you reverse the hot and the neutral lines, you actually create a voltage potential between the outlets. I discovered this because I touched the stove and the refridgerator at the same time accidentally. I got a huge jolt, shook a bit, and called the land lord.
LESSON 2: Breakers and Wiring Guages
If you should ever run wiring in your house, you need to make sure that the breaker that you use matches the capabilities of the wiring. If you should decide to run wiring into an attic using 15 amp capable wiring, it is a bad idea to put a 30 amp breaker on it. It's an even worse idea to hook up approximately 27 amps worth of electrical heaters to this circuit because it will cause the wiring in the wall to catch fire. Of course if one assumes that the person wiring the house isn't insane, you may not know to avoid plugging in said heaters.
LESSON 3: DOCTORS ARE NOT ELECTRICIANS
Eletricity isn't brain surgery, and just as you don't want an electrician siticking sharp metal objects into your brain, you don't want a doctor futzing with wiring. Actually I suppose if you are a doctor who does know how to work with electricity it would be okay, but the one who had previously owned our house had no clue on the subject. Worse, he had no clue and he mistakenly thought that he knew everything.
So, if you look in the electrical box and it instills fear in you, call a professional. Don't even think of doing it yourself.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
In a thunderstorm, I tell ya!!!
first get IBEW certification, then due the work. Since it's work related, you should be able to expense it all to them...
Plus you get the work in a better paying field when you are done...
Coming next on Ask Slashdot:
I've been getting bad headaches for weeks now - they're getting worser and I'm seeing flashing lights. Can the slashdot community give me any advice on do-it-yourself brain surgery with a dessert spoon and a screwdriver ?
This question has to be the dumbest thing I have ever heard on Slashdot. The man must be a complete cretin to even consider asking for advice.
aha you bastard, ancient technology. every week a decwriter prints out checks for every employee at the huge school department i work for. one night the sucker blew and my check hadn't printed yet. I did the same thing. Well, almost the same thing. i used a peice of the tin foil i had my sandwich wrapped in.
only ever installed vax/vms ~4 using one of those, i didn't actually realize people wrote code using them.
i'm pretty amused that you call something i still support ancient technology.
oh, btw, this was after they stopped paying out OT, so after my check printed i popped the modified fuse back out and went home. my last name starts with a B.. haha, suckas.
The List of Grievances with Slashdot.
Slashdot effect on comment URL's...wow! Well, a geocities page, so not all THAT amazing.
Here's Google's cache of the refferred-to page.
Chris -- http://www.bitter.net/
Move it to the "OFF" position.
There. You've solved the problem.Have a beer. Admire your solution.
And, as always, "Thank you for using Ask Slashdot."You were 80% angel, 10% demon. The rest was hard to explain. - Over The Rhine
"Math in a song is good."-Linford
Oooh - 220v ooh deadly ooh .. y'all have no idea what you talk about ...
Now, the FACTS for all the people posting bad advice - North American 220v is still only 110v (2phase) to ground or neutral. 220v is basically the potential difference between the 2 active phases. In other words, you are no more likely going to be killed by a North American 220v outlet (to ground) than you are 110v outlet to ground. WHAT ARE YOU GUYS TALKING ABOUT ?
Now, as to the danger: China, Australia, New Zealand ... EUROPE all supply 220v or 240v to the home as general purpose outlets. Most of these countries use 380v or 415v between the phases (3 phase). It's not the potential difference that kills you (only), it's if you touch the wires when they're turned on, 110v or 220v !
As some people allude to, using large guage wires of different metals causes all kinds of bad news and you had better know what you're doing but this is only for REALLY big panels. Most panels still use simple brass and copper junctions. Make sure you know what you're doing if you go there.
So, pulling 220v at 20 amps is no more dangerous as pulling 2 110v wires at 20 amps.
The most important point : IF YOU HAD TO ASK /. YOU'RE IN BUG TRUBBEL IF YOU DO IT YERSELF.
Advice in negotiating with your electrical contractor : Ask first now much it will cost to pull a 110v outlet. GET A PRICE. Then ask how much it will cost to pull a 220v outlet. If the price is more that 20% higher loose the contractor. Contractors regularly charge WAY more than they should for 220v work because they are "buisness rates".
Disclaimer - all voltages cited above are RMS (root mean square)- peak votages are normally 1.4x (sqrt(2)) higher.
To start off, I am an electrician.
.5 of an amp can kill you and anything higher than about 3 amps will allow the mortuary to not have to charge your widow for your cremation. Just supply the urn, ma'am.
Hire a professional, period. It may very well save your life.
Anything higher than about
I'm pretty sure that the budget will get modified to accommodate your needs when you tell your boss that the new system cannot be installed due to the shoddy condition of the mains box.
If you are forced to work on the box yourself, immediately contact OSHA, your local Fire Marshal and your local State or County Building Inspector.
They should be able to convince your employer that it would be in their best interest to have the electrical system repaired by a Licensed-Bonded commercial electrician.
Arready, neh ?!
I worked at a medium sized amusement park while in college. The park was over 35 years old and much of the wiring and junction boxes were equally as old.
Late one summer night, with the park full of people, all the lights on 'main street' went off.
I was nearby the park's main junction box and helped one of the engineers, an unassuming guy who had worked at the park for years, by holding a flashlight while he started work on the box.
The box was ancient. Cloth wrapped wires. Giant fuses. Old rusty exposed mechanical switches. The works. For whatever reason, one of the main switches had popped open. The engineer first tries popping it back in place. The lights flicker and it just pops back out.
The guy looks at me and says "Point the light at the ground. Help me find some old wire". He searches around with his hands for a minute and finds a snipping of some very heavy guage plastic insulated wire.
To my shock, the guy closes the switch shut with one hand while using the other to hold the insulated part of the wire and *arc-welds the switch shut* with the wire's exposed conductor! Sparks flew, the lights snapped back on, and I damn near shit my pants. This good old boy engineer didn't even blink. "That should hold it until we can get someone out tomorrow".
The only thing I can figure is that he was somehow electrically insulated, perhaps from his huge set of balls for even considering something like this.
You REALLY want to hire an electrician. I know that's a bit redundant, but it can't be said enough.
You know when you goof when wiring around the house and there's a little flash and the breaker pops? This is NOTHING like that. While MOST of that panel is running 220, it's 220 with a huge capacity. The sort that can vaporize a pair of pliers on contact without any trouble at all. We're talking instant fire.
Last time I heard about anyone attempting DIY on something like that, the panel blew out into the corridor (fortunatly, nobody standing in front of it at the time) and the floor went dark for a few days while the qualified electrician sorted the mess out.
On the original post, the question would be irrelevant in Australia. Anyone doing any electrical work here without a current electrian's license voids all insurance (including the very obvious fire insurance).
However, in a overlapping variation to this, some years back, I was scheduled to move a supermini in a machine room on a weekend, preparatory to an upcoming delivery. I got waylaid on Saturday, when the machine room still had lots of Ops around, and went in on Sunday to move it. Having shut down and disconnected the beast, I moved it to the new location, and set about relaying the various data cables preparatory to powering it up again. Unfortunately in those days of old, cable trays hadn't hit the scene, so there were a series of loose cables under the panels.
While gently pulling in the old Ethernet baseband tranceiver cable, the knobby little end connector snagged over a big power cable about 5 metres from me.. and hey presto, huge sparky bits. After the initial nervous shock, I looked (no touchy) that the cable it was on was 415V three phase to some other system (which I couldn't just shutdown and turn off, not under my control). I called the Ops manager, who got an electrician in.. and it turned out that one of the wires in the big screw-on power connector had never been attached.. so this short could have happened any time. And 415V will kill you nearly every time.. 'tickles' are NOT optional.
The fun bit was.. the electrical contractors didn't even get a rap on the knuckles for the faulty work. I did, for working in the machine room by myself (which they knew I was going to do, and had done many times before).. despite the fact that I wasn't doing anything with power (other than turning my machine off, unplugging it, replugging to a new socket, and turning it on).
Solution to problem.. tell them to stick their weekend work where the sun don't shine.. and if their schedules went to hell because of limited times in which the work could be done, that was their problem.
Nowadays of course, data cables are laid in trays independent of power cables, so the problem couldn't really come up..
Really, this problem can be solved in two easy steps:
1. Find a religion. Preferably one that allows forgiveness (for step 2.) or reincarnation.
2. Use your own intuition and repair the cabinet in the way that makes the most sense. You took a circuits class in college and know that electrons are electrons. This is no different-- how hard could it be.
You found the root node to the US Power Grid!! Just stuff it all back in there and step away slowly... Maybe nobody will notice another power outage.
Helpful, well, maybe but it should still be modded up. ;-)
I do a lot of my own electrical work. I also have an enormous respect for main panels. The amount of energy available there is staggering. I've seen an electrician get his finger split open by touching the wrong thing in a commericial building panel. And he should have known better.
Replacing breakers in a live panel is one thing (and should be done only with extreme caution), but doing anything with the wiring (especially obviously faulty wiring) is a sure way to find Trouble.
As the saying goes: "there are old technicians and there are bold technicians, but there are no old, bold technicians".
A professional is definitely the way to go. You don't want to get hung up in all that. Sounds like you need to have someone replace the entire distribution center. Higher someone regardless what your budget says, but stay around to make sure it is done to your standards (neat and tidy).
I live is Australia where the mains is 240 volts, and I have an amateur electrician story of my own.
Many years ago when I was young(er) and (more) foolish, I got work for a day demolishing a cafe for a shady cost-cutting landlord by the name of Andy. Andy and I got a bunch of tools and went in there and started smashing shit up, just laying into tables and cabinets etc with a crowbar.
Anyway, Andy reckons that the coffee machine might be valuable so he decides to remove it rather than smash it. He unscrews the water hose first, but the main tap is still on and he's quickly drenched and standing in a puddle (you can see where this is heading). He turns the water off at the mains then returns to the task at hand, removing the coffee machine. Having taken care of the water and unscrewed everything, there's only one thing left to do: unplug the machine. The plug and socket turn out to be sealed inside the wall cavity, so Andy figures he'll cut the power cable with a pair of tin snips and put a new plug on the coffee machine later.
He's pretty sure he got his electrician, Rob, to turn off the mains power earlier, but since he's standing in a puddle of water he wants to be 100% sure. He gets out his mobile phone and calls Rob, who assures him that the power is off and Nothing Can Possibly Go Wrong. At this point my spider sense is tingling badly, so I go and stand on top of a nice dry pile of wooden furniture while he cuts the cable.
There is a quiet snipping noise, then a bright flash of white light and a crack like thunder. Andy flies through the air, still holding the snips, and comes to rest in a pile of masonry. I go over to see if he's okay and notice that the blades of the snips have vaporised, leaving only a pair of rubber handles.
Andy opens his eyes, sits bolt upright and calls Rob on his mobile phone. The conversation goes like this:
"Hello?"
"YOU'RE FIRED ARSEHOLE!"
Vino, gyno, and techno -Bruce Sterling
And quite quickly sued for wrongful termination....
1. Get your wallet out.
2. Check for an Electrician's license/certificate.
3. If you find one, hand it in for lacking the skill to do this without an ASK SLASHDOT.
4. If you don't, take all your money and buy a big insurance policy so your wife can have the financial security to wait and next time marry somebody smart enough to not try something like this, after you get electrocuted and die trying this crap.
Who did what now?
That would count as "disciplining the employee", which is illegal.
1) Go get the phone book from the secretary.
2) Open to the "electricians" or "electrical contractors" page.
3) Phone around to schedule appointments for estimates.
4) Pay the most experienced master electrician you can find whatever he/she asks.
5) Be glad you saved yourself from becoming a Darwin Award winner.
Seriously, what are you thinking? Electricity is dangerous, even for people who know what they are doing. If you can't identify those "soda bottles", you are not qualified to do this work. It is probably even illegal for you to do so. Go hire a professional right this second.
To clarify this, if the employer wants to fire the employee at any time in the future, he better have a damned good reason.
I can only hope you are asking for this advice in jest because it seems to me that your addressing your problem with your power distribution leads me to question so much more about how your operation is being run.."The distribution box hasnt been open since the mid 80's ?? Clearly, oversight hasnt been a strong point.
I see it this way you've been living on borrowed time. Get a professional in there and make sure they do it right. Get your electrical contractor to give you wiring diagrams and documentation when the job is done and do an inspection to avoid the chewing gum and bailing wire stopgaps.
Expensive? probably but not as expensive as having all that expensive equiptment die on ya when you need it most.
Just put a sign on it saying "DO NOT FLIP THIS SWITCH."
People will flip it just to see what happens, even if its obviously hooked up to a keg of dynamite.
Just call a pro and walk away until he's done.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
That sucker will likely pull you in. Your solution could be a phone call away or a trip to home depot. It's up to you. Regardless...whenever working with high voltage protect yourself. Depending on what kind of artist and how much patience you have, you may be able to solve your own problem. Remember wiring is like plumbing without water. I suggest your own sub-panel, not only for ease of troubleshooting, but safety as well. I recently came into a similar problem for my companies datacenter, only I felt a little safer working with 480v 3-phase. At least that will throw you (you hope). Nerves of steel and good insulated gear will get you through without any problems. Be neat, cautious, and label EVERYTHING.
Sometimes it's cheaper to hire a pro than to do it yourself. This is one of those times. If you fuck up and burn your house down, the insurance company can weasel out of paying, and if the local municipality has weird laws about only certified electricians being allowed to do the work, you could even end up being fined or jailed. If the pro says "oops" you can bet your ass his insurance company will pay up. Another plus is that the pro will do the work to code specs, and that will be important years from now when you sell the house.
I know a guy that sat on 220VAC. The electrician had wired everything in, but left the breakers off because nothing was terminated. One of the other sub-trades had come in needing 120VAC and so had turned on everything in the panel. Buddy was squatting down to measure for the cabinets and sat right on the bare wires for the stove. He said next thing he remembered was being shoulder deep in the wall on the other side of the kitchen.
Cut the main before beginning work.
thanks
Simple. Call a licenced electrician, company can't afford it? can the fire dep't, and have alert them of the fire hazard this is obviously causing.. where i live, the company/building owner will be forced to have the wiring fixed very soon or face charges / their insurance company cancelling their plan etc... things like that are often overlooked, but if the wiring is as bad as your saying it is though the rest of the building as well,, a fire could break out any second :S.
Reece,
Guys, this is a fake story induced by idle musings on the mysterious power outage of 1965. A big power box like the one described is not meant to be opened, but if it was last opened in the 1980s, where did all the cruft come from?
Please, Repair it yourself! after your company disappears in a flash of electrical arcs and lawsuits, some other company will take over your companys' business.
( yes, it's sarcasm )
I've done various types of Electrical work, Privatly and professionally, but I _never_ would touch a distribution panel in such a sorry state. Every piece of Electrical equipment in your building is at risk, if a short does happen everything - form the coffee maker to the Storage Array you administer might be toasted.
No matter the cost, the bean counters will immediatly understand the need to re-wire the panel, The damage being risked is immensely greater than the cost of the repair.
Hell, WHERE I grew up we walked 200 miles through the bush on ground covered in thorns, wearing no shoes, because we had no voltage whatsoever. But we did hear camp fire tales of certified electricians fixing the magical powerlines in the lands of milk and voltage.
A high voltage electrical arc can be 4 times hotter then the surface of the sun.
Is that really someplace you'd like to be?
-Chris
PS - On a side note, I've stared at 480V copper buses capaple of supplying over 65,000 Amps during a ground fault. You'd be surprised how strong the impulse is to just reach out and touch the shiney copper bar. Mistakes are easier to make then you might think :-)
--an unbreakable toy is useful for breaking other toys--
I just realised what's going on here ... someone made a bet that they could make everyone in an entire slashdot topic agree on something. Usually it would be safe bet against (ie that it was impossible).
Servlet v2.4 container in a single 161KB jar file ? Try Winstone
This is a perfect example of why I maintain a good relationship, both on a social and business level, with a friend who is a certified electrician. I take care of his computer needs, he takes care of my electrical needs. I have a similar relationship with my attorney.
I want a new quote. One that won't spill. One that don't cost too much. Or come in a pill.
I worked down at Kennedy Space Center, in the old Flight Crew Training building. It had a crawlspace that was used to run wires, which was accessible by pulling up one of the big, heavy floor tiles (there was a special tile-pulling tool). The crawlspace was maybe three feet deep -- with the bottom foot or so consisting of old cables, dating back to the Apollo days. Pulling up a floor tile always reminded me of the scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark -- all that was missing was a dropped torch and Indy saying "Snakes... Why did it have to be snakes?" Anyway, every time they tried to clean out these wires, they ended up knocking out something important, so eventually they just let them accumulate.
One time we had to run a network cable from one end of the building to the other -- nearly 100 meters -- and the only way we could figure out to do it was to send someone down there to crawl it through. I'm glad I didn't draw the short straw that day...
I object to that article, and to the next reply.
Seeing as I replied early I cam back to see that 99% of all post still agree with me. (for once hehe) Hire a compentent elecrtician. But I still have this nagging question WTF did did you take the of an electrical box? Is that in your offical job discription? Do you still have a job after doing that?
As you can see I don't care about my karma.
Does anyone know how to do brain surgery... I've been having some really bad headaches lately (quite sure it's a tumor) and since I'm on a tight budget, I need to take care of this myself... So far, I've cut open my skull, but it made a funny noise when I tried to put it back togather... unfortunately, I'm already having a glimpse of the great beyond..............
Looking for any old 8-bit Heathkit/Zenith software/hardware - http://heathkit.garlanger.com
The key too handling high voltages safely, is to become a good resistor
So resistence...is not futile?
JFYI. There are rules that require that the cases of electric devices should be connected to the Protective Ground. But in old Russian panel khruschobas (joke means: paupers dwellings built by Khruschev) there is no Protective Ground. So I have an unpleasant perspective:
either connect the case of my cooker to the water tap and have a perspective of killing the plumber that disconnects a water pipe, (and killing yourself in the bathroom, too. The law requires the bath to be short-connected with a tap, but is it really done?)
or connect it to the Neutral and suffer electric shocks every time when I touch a cooker and a tap, and, moreover, to be killed when the oxidized aluminium Neutral wire loses contact. Last time when the Neutral was disconnected it fried everything electric in 20 apartments, including mine. The latter is legally required.
I have no idea how to solve this dilemma and avoid both grave and prison. My hourlong dispute with the safety official ended with nothing.
That's nothing
Where I work (warning ugly website ahead) one of our top salesmen was out on a startup on a 4160VAC starter. The customer asked him how wide the stacks were, so he took out his metal measuring tape and measured across the phases.
He was ok, by sheer luck, but the measuring tape has two very decent burn marks at each end where the voltage jumped out and grabbed it. He was thrown back quite a ways and didn't want to move for about twenty minutes, but he lived.
I'm not an electrician, but I've done a lot of my own electrical work, and I've put in a good bit of study to make sure I'm doing it right.
The problem you describe sounds like a major one, and you'll need to hire an electrician. It's what I would do, and I feel comfortable wiring anything in my house this side of the main breaker. Fact is, you may need to replace the whole panel, and that requires coordination with the utility company to pull your meter, and you'll probably need a new service entrance. That's just not a handyman job.
That said, the "old wiring" may not be as bad as it looks. Get a professional opinion, of course. There are a few kinds of old wire with paper/cloth insulation. The oldest Romex has a shellacked paper or cloth outer wrapper and rubber insulation on the wires. The rubber becomes brittle with age, and should probably be replaced to avoid shorts and arcs. Later Romex still had the shellacked paper, or asphalted paper, but the wires have modern thermoplastic insulation. The outer wrapping of the cable can get brittle and very messy, but the insulation holds up okay. As long as Romex of that era isn't totally disintegrating, it's not an issue to panic over, as the thermoplastic insulation is durable.
If you see any aluminum wires in your breaker panel other than the service entrance or a heavy-gauge subfeed, have your electrician rewire the house ASAP. Aluminum wire for branch circuits is a house fire waiting to happen, even with "aluminum rated" outlets.
If you're going to do any major electrical work, go down to Town Hall and talk with the building inspector. They're usually quite friendly and helpful. Their job is to help you do things right and follow the codes. The codes are there to keep you from making mistakes others have already made, and to keep you from doing something foolish and unsafe. If you're polite and friendly, your inspector will probably be glad to sit with you for a while and give you pointers on how to do the job right.
Of course, it helps if you already know how to do it right. The National Electrical Code can be hard to track down; a lot of libraries don't seem to carry it, and those that do classify it as a reference work, so you can't borrow it. Luckily, thanks to a recent Supreme Court decision, building codes which are enacted into law lose any copyright protection, so you can go ahead and photocopy away.
You may also find other helpful books. I'm particularly fond of Wiring Simplified, a book that covers most common household wiring tasks and includes Code references.
When sparks start shooting out of things, though... that's time to call the pros.
...call an electrician. You don't want to mess with something like that. It cost me $500 to have my whole service entrance replaced, from the pole into the basement, and the fusebox replaced with breakers. The guy did an extremely professional job and I can sleep at night, because I watched him do it. It was money well spent.
Do not do this work, refuse it. By the sounds of it, you are an employee of a for-profit entity.
Are they paying you enough for your wife to be a widow and children to be reared by a single-parent?
Lock it out, its your right -- you cannot (at least in canada) be asked, by your employer to do somthing that is dangerous. DONT DO IT.
the only time that panel should be worked on is by an electrician who has disconnected the mains volatage.
Man, its just *not* worth the risk.
He's going to smell like hotdogs!
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
1. Hire an electrician to completley rewire the building.
2. Slam the cover on the breaker box several times hard. After the fire, the insurance Co. can make sure the new building is up to code.
Professional Politicians are not the solution, they ARE the problem.
1) Call the inspector(s)(fire/gov't/etc.) to meet you near the panel.
2) Call all of the "money people" (President, VP, CEO, etc.) to meet you near the panel after the inspector(s) get there.
3) Once all of the important people are there, declare an evacuation over the PA/Phone System/etc.!
4) Have the inspector shut off the power!
could you hold this bratwurst for me? I'll be back in a couple minutes with a beer.
There are way, way too many variables at work here for you to even think about doing this yourself.
...but you will be the one on trial for manslaughter. Or criminal damage. You will plea bargain, successfully. You'll have a minor criminal record, and will only have a minimum of jail time - possibly only community service. If you're lucky, you'll only have to see the family of the dead fire victim once, at sentencing.... ...all because back in 2003 you decided that your employer would most likely be pissed with a $5000 bill for electrical work.
Here's a situation - quite likely, actually, happens all the time:
You "fix" it. Somehow. By some miracle. You don't even seem to break anything.
Two years from now, the "Super-Duper Electrical Bonding Compound Series A-723A-P" that you used cannot handle the heat surge. There is a fire. There are several hundred thousand dollars worth of damage, or worse, a person dies.
A full investigation ensues. It is found that some idiot used Super-Duper Electrical Bonding Compound Series A-723A-P to join two wires when, of course, any competent licensed electrician knows perfectly well that since there is a Purple Snoklefactor drawing 23.3 amps off of main bus B, the specs call for Compound A-723-A-PqA-7! You idiot!
The investigators realize that only a talented layman who doesn't do it for a living would have made such a simple mistake. Armed with supeanea power, they swoop in, asking anyone and everyone "Have you ever seen anyone in that box?" Your company, is a desperate attempt to avoid being sued for MILLIONS - I am not exaggerating - of dollars, decides to finger you as the person who made unauthorized repairs, in an attempt to shift at least part of the liability on you. It won't suceed, of course, they will still have to pay something...
Is it really worth it? This type of stuff happens all the time. Electricity is simple, at heart - but the complex interactions that go on in the heart of commercial power should only be tampered with by those who know EXACTLY what they are doing. Otherwise, buildings burn, property is lost, and people die.
As a licensed electrician I can tell you that most amatures know just enough to be dangerous. Don't be foolish, hire a pro.
Be sure to always have one hand firmly grasping your man parts. This way, when you lectricute you self, you at least get to go out with a BANG!
I'm Brian Fellows!
Thats Crazy!
Ok folks
I've wired power panels in residential situations. I have NO unreasonable fear of electricity. I used to work professionally in HEAVY duty power electronics (Multiple 10s of KW UPS systems). I've worked on 400Hz AC Power supplies (Hurts more than the 60Hz stuff). I've been zapped by 220 3phase more times than I care to remember, and even 400 volts DC. I used to have lockout tags. At one point I even used to do wiring that required an electrician to sign off on my work, and never had to change anything
You know what I would do in this situation?
CALL AN ELECTRCIAN
Does that sum it up?
-- 73 de KG2V For the Children - RKBA! "You are what you do when it counts" - the Masso
"BBBZZZTTTTT, WRONG Answer!"
Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know when your gonna get food poisoning.
Yeah but the constant correction that the current kills you is still annoying. Usually when you have systems with high voltage they are designed to carry high current. I like to think of the analogy of height. Sure you could probably die falling off a stepstool, but the chances are greater of breaking your neck if you fall off a watertower. Greater potential. Of course the best way to fall a great height is on a roller coaster or a waterslide, but that's just the summer sun in me talkin'.
postmodernsideshow.com
Here's a tip if you wish to do this yourself- call the electrical company and ask them for a 'temporary disconnect' for limb cutting, moving your tall artwork in place, or some such.
:)
I did this for my 1923 bungalow. When I bought it the house supply wire was a set of tin 20 gauge wires dating from sometime from the 20s or 30s! As you can imagine, that setup was more dangerous than anything I might do!
Once you are cut off, you can do whatever you need to do.. I reccomend scrapping it all and starting from scratch as I did- so you know that you have it right. In my case, I only had 110 to deal with, so it was a bit simpler.
If you read a wiring manual very carefully, follow it obsessively, and triple check your work, I think you should be fine.
By the way, this is a great time to wire your house to work better with X10 - use nothing smaller than 12 gauge wire (this is a good idea for fire safety anyway) and centralise the wiring towards the center of the house if you can- right next to where you tie in your x10 transmitters. Also, don't string together outlets and switches in series like the pros do- run a seperate line for each.. this also will help keep you out of trouble.
This sort of wiring also gives you the choice of putting relays on each lighting circuit for computer control.
In my case, I did not have a standard weatherhead (where the power lines hook up) so I wired one up inside the attic where the power company could not see it and then mounted it on the house later.
Oh yeah, make damn sure the breaker is turned off when power is reconnected and spend a few hours watching for problems when you do reconnect it..
Also make sure you are not at home when they reconnect the wiring, and lock your breaker box down fully if it is outside. That way, they can't do any pesky checks... it worked for me!
Good luck and be careful!
I have never heard of anyone being fired for refusing to do something that is not only not their job, but also dangerous.
Then again, I live in Europe. Maybe that's a US thing?
Get a temporary disconnect for limb cutting and then wire a new hidden box before the meter.
I've never done this, I always wonder if the power company would notice the difference and start tracking it down.. but there is no practical reason why you could not.
Hell, I hear half of Rio is wired up this way.. -virto
Not true, you totally ignored the "R" part of your equation.
And this got modded +5?
Oh man, Slashdot is nothing but morons. I though this was a geek hangout.
HIRE A DAMN ELECTRICIAN!
In the long run, your electrician bill is going to be cheaper if you just let them do it right for you, rather than 1) having to pay anyway because you jacked it up and 2) having to pay burial costs due to getting zapped by 220.
-JT
Ok, I gather that you don't do power electronics. This being the case (and I never thought I would say this), what pray thee do you think you are doing????
Electricity is not your friend, it will kill you, and not care at all.
Having done more panel work than I ever wanted to I will say this:
If you do not understand what you are looking at you have no reason at all to be opening panels like that. It sucks that you tripped some breakers. Call a certified electrician.
There are two reasons for this:
One, electricity can kill you, even those who know what they are doing really don't like to work on live circuts.
Two, IANAL however in most states electricians carry liability insurance. This is in case something bad happens, and your building burns down. If it was a wiring fault the insurance helps to deal with it. If you are not a certified electrician you cannot get this insurance, but you are still liable for any electrical work you do.
Hate to say it, but this means it is time to call an electrician, and possibly the power company, depending on where the box is located in relation to the rest of the building's electrical boxes.
OK, this has already been played out a dozen times, but I'm going to continue the tradition of pounding it into your head just because it's the right thing to do.
My father has been a lineman for Ohio Power for ~30 years. I myself am an Electrical Engineer. This says two things about me:
Thanks.
So by now the story is a couple of hours old.
Can anybody please confirm that this guy did the right (and safe) thing and is actually still alive?
--- Hindsight is 20/20, but walking backwards is not the answer.
science is a religion
Here are some links you can learn from.
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h o7 9c.htm
h o8 0c.htm
WARNING! Do not click if you do not like gore!
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I think my boss thinks I'm a whimp for not wanting to fiddle with 220+ Volt wiring. He still has the remains of a screwdriver he dropped in a 440 volt box. It is several inches shorter then it used to be and he has a scar on his head to remind him of the mistake.
An old wise man once said:
If you have to ask and it can kill you, maim you, or bankrupt you, then you need professional help.
Geeks are used to being able to figure things out. I fix mysterious computer problems, work on my car without training or instructions. I'd even be OK with doing some light wiring when I rewire my house. But I'd guess that the sort of work you're asking about could involve any of the three, in whichever order you choose, seperately or all at once.
I wouldn't mind doing outlets while I remodel my house, but just because I have a few harmless shocks under my belt I don't feel qualified to fiddle with the hot side of an electrical panel. Get a pro or make damn good case why you need to do it yourself... explaining why you are willing to risk your life to get the job done.
1) Acquire funding, you need it
2) Pay IBM Global Services to redo everything in your datacenter, as your ac, ups, network wiring, etc probably suck as bad as your electrical wiring.
3)
4) Profit!
Seriously, if you have the cash to pay them, I can't recommend IBM Global Services enough, they've done wonderful jobs on datacenter facilities work for me in the past, design through installation. (And no, I've never worked for them and they didn't pay me to say that)
11*43+456^2
..."what is the best way to trephine one self?"
Yes, I do that often after fiddling with things. Be sure to use the back of your hand, if it is live the muscles in your arm will contract and pull your hand away from the electrified object. Don't use your finger tips, I did and I got caught in the current. Pulled me in and shook me while it held me tight.
There are many dangers, they could be in a toaster or a common thing.
you're probably American
:)
I work at a foundry that has been having some problems with the melt pots. I went over and looked in the power cabinet, and there was water leaking out and sparks flying on the huge metal connectors inside. How should I go about fixing the problem?
And while we're at it, you've got to also consider P=IV (although in this case the P is quite massive). If the voltage increases, the current must decrease in order to maintain the same power. This is the reason a stun gun won't kill you; it can only pump out X watts.
***
Radio Shack. You've got questions...we've got blank stares(TM).
Relatively speaking (to kill a human), yes. But the reason we have high voltage lines in the first place is to reduce the needed current carrying capacity of the lines, and in turn reduce losses to heat.
***
Radio Shack. You've got questions...we've got blank stares(TM).
Shit, when I was a kid we didn't even have the ability to have things. ....And when we got home, our father would slice us in two with a bread knife.
I was working for an electrician installing a large deli in a grocery store. We had pulled all our runs and left the pigtails hanging until after lunch.
When we returned, I started terminating the pigtails for outlets. I was assured by a coworker that everything was off. But another sub had flipped on everything looking for power for a drill.
I walked up to a pigtail for 240v, took my strippers, and snipped into all conductors at once (which I usually wouldn't have done). While this act blew a nice pretty hole in my strippers, it probably saved me a nasty shock in the end. The voltage decided to go back through the ground wire I shorted rather than through me.
Needless to say, my coworker about kicked some ass over that one.
***
Radio Shack. You've got questions...we've got blank stares(TM).
I, for one, welcome our new electrician overlords.
Have you ever destroyed an outside transformer? My uncle did. Figured he could install a water heater. Connected the wires into a short. I'm standing upstairs at an outside window (the power panel was next to it). Throw the main breaker, and watch the pole transformer down the road light up like a christmas tree, and the wires fall off it. Of course I had to be mum about that to the power company. And let's not get started on his plumbing. :(
I've had professional electronics classes. I would be comfortable doing it, IF I HAD THE COMPANIES APPROVAL. If you do something wrong and there is a fire, YOU COULD BE HELD LIABLE. Just a warning man.
And the folks in Ohio are trying to shift the blame from them, not knowing it wasnt them after all. What Al Qaeda dreamt of doing, some geek jiggling power cables managed to achieve.
I'm getting no AC up here in Toronto and its friggin HOT. I strongly urge you to go back and turn on the break switches immediately. Do it gently or I'll have to drive 3 hours to work again through dysfunctional traffic lights shuttling marooned subway passengers along the way. And I'll tell them ALL ABOUT YOU!
"Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky
An electrician to fix this thing properly will probably cost you under $1K even on the high end.
If your boss balks at the cost of an electrician, then have him get an estimate from SUN and his insurance company on how much it would cost to warranty/insure all the equipment in that room (and you, if you're stupid enough to take that cabinet on) against something going wrong with a jury-rig fix.
After getting that estimate, he should be willing to pay whatever you need to get the gob done right. Make sure you get an electrician with a reasnoable ammount of industrial experience.
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
First, do call an electrical contractor who is also allowed to consult for those doing the work themselves. Plan a couple hours up front, a couple in the middle, and a couple inspection hours at the end.
Let him/her know several things:
1. Shutting down the panel for a total of 3 days time throughout the project is acceptable.
2. That you want to address the safety issues first.
3. That you want to do it right.
4. That you want to have him/her lay down the ground rules - even if it means going the simple route only such as outlets only on 12g circuits and lights only on 14g circuits, etc.
5. That you want a serious critiqe of your work before signing off - that means real tugs on nuts, checking torque on breaker screws - testing GFCIs etc.
Before proceeding, be sure your company's HR and Legal departments are okay with it - and the company insurance covers you.
Be prepared to replace enclosures, and undo junction boxes that were put in place to repair wiring - i.e., replace them with complete haul wires.
Most importantly, do all neutral and ground wires before completing connections of hots. This adds a significant layer of safety while working.
Also, anytime you are working in panels - instruct others around you what to do if you do the "twist".
Finally, if for any reason those running the environment start to throw around the usual "we gotta have it up and running now", or "we can't do it tonight", "or this is mission critical" bullshit - inform those in charge you are unable to do the job. Best to deal with this before you start.
If it doesn't work out, the company will just have to pay an electrician to do it - they probably deserve it too. Stuff like this doesn't happen by accident.
=8-)
As someone who has worked with industrial power electronics for years, I'm pleased to read all the advice for getting a qualified, licensed electrician to do the job right. There is no other way to go and as reiterated earlier in this discussion, if you can't afford to do that, you can't afford to be in business. Period.
Here's some good advice: Find the guy who made the mess in he first place and get *him* to do it!
First: This is important. You want to play with the main breaker box in a serious way, Call the power company, inform them that you need to work on the breaker box in your building. Ask them to come out and switch off the mains at the street! Verify that this was done using a simple volt meter. (you can get a $20 one at radio shack.) A simpler way of doing this is to check to see that a previously working light or outlet is now depowered. To be thorough however you should use the volt meter to check the output of each of the breakers.
Second: Inspect the wiring for Blue/White vs Black/white pairs. Blue and White is the old stuff, and is damn near garaunteed to fail if you try to reuse it. General advice is to give up on any Blue/White pairs if you have any reasonable chance of rewiring those circuits.
Third: Verify that all circuits are hanging off from the correct size breakers. 12 Gague wire can handle up to 20 Amps, 14 Gauge can handle 15 Amps, and 16 gague can handle 10 Amps. Anything wires smaller than that Should Not Be used at the breaker Box You can use a breaker that is rated for a lower amperage than the wire can handle, but not higher. I.E. You can use a 10 amp breaker with 12,14, or 16 gague wire, but a 20 amp breaker can only be used with 12 gauge wire.
Fourth: The mains from the street are 3 major cables. These are different than the wires that go to "normal" outlets and lights in your house. The normal outlets and lights in your house use 1 of the two mains from the street and ground. A 220 Outlet uses both of the mains from the street and ground. Thus a 220 outlet has 220 volts, or 2 110 volt circuits 180 dgrees out of phase for those amatuer electricians in the crowd. What you need in order to wire up 220 outlets are the usual gague wire, but the breaker is different. For a "normal" circuit, only one breaker is neaded because only one of the three wires is "hot" meaning that it sources power. In 220 outlets, two of the wires are "hot". This means that both hot wires need to be connected to a breaker. The same rules for cable sizes applies as before. When running 220, you must use a double breaker of the correct size for your wire. What this does is if one of the two circuits blows the breaker, the breaker will disconnect both "hot" wires, rendering the circuit completely dead.
Fifth: Although it may seem like a good idea, do not use a breaker with any wire that is not "hot" You do not ever want the circumstance where your "hot" wire is powered, but the ground wires are disconnected by a breaker.
Sixth: All of the wiring into the breaker box should be exactly the length needed. No excess wire should be stored in the box. All cables entering the box should be clamped securely in place. (a hardware store will have the clamps for use with just about any breaker box and cable.) The wires in the breaker box should all have their shielding completely intact. Replace any wires for which the shielding is missing or damaged. All wires should be mounted into the breakers such that no unshielded part of the wire is exposed. If it is, disconnect the wire, and trim it such that only shielded portions of the wire are exposed. As a general rule, the breakers should be wired to one and only one wire each. If you do not have enough breakers for all of your devices I strongly recommend buying a bigger breaker box. If you must wire more than one wire to any given breaker, that breakers size should be determined by the size of the smallest wire being connected to it. If you have a brekaer with a 12 gauge and a 16 gauge wire connected, then the breaker should be a 10 amp breaker.
Once you are done, use a standard issue voltmeter to verify that there is no conductivity between any circuits when the breakers are all in the off position. Then, switch the breakers one by one to the on position and make sure
I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
In most residential wiring the thing you use to turn the power off to the main circuit box is the meter. You remove the meter, which by the way has a seal on it stamped by the power company, and this removes power from the two phases coming into the house. This is the only safe way to work on a main circuit panel. I do know know what kind of regualations there are where you live but in some places you can remove your own meter but not put it back. In other places you can not remove your own meter.
The reasoning behind laws in regards to not removing your own meter would probably be economic since that would be how you would steal electricy.
One point of contention I have about home wiring is the type of electrical box used to house switches, outlets, and various other junctions of wires. I am curious if anyone else agrees or disagrees with my thoughts on this matter.
The contention I have is this. I think metal boxes are much safer than plastic boxes. My reasoning is as follows.
1. With a metal box which is properly attached to the safety ground you have a situation where a live wire coming loose inside the box and hitting the box will immediately trip a circuit breaker.
2. If the live wire does not come loose but only gets flakey and hot and starts to burn your metal box will not burn along with it. It will still trip the breaker when the wire has burned enough to break free and hit the side of the box.
3. It is obvious to me that plastic boxes will not trip a breaker if a wire gets loose inside them.
4. A plastic box with a hot wire will actually burn and help in the process of burning down your house.
5. I think the only reason electricians started using plastic boxes was because there were cheaper than metal boxes.
6 Saying a plastic box is better because it insulates you and the wires inside from grounding out against the box implies total ignorance of one of the the purposes of a safety ground. It also allows shoddy wiring to go unnoticed longer.
Those are my reasons, what do you think?
dzimmerm
Jumping to correct solutions slowly is better than jumping to incorrect solutions quickly.
As a low voltage technician licensed in the state of MN, who has taken 220 volts of love in the course of duty due to a faulty stove, I hereby advise you to call a master electrician to fix your probelm.
stay alive,
mike overbo
As somebody else pointed out, as the voltage increase, the potential current also increases. In any case, your average mains power bus can carry far more current than it takes to fry your body parts. If you have any further questions, ask your local coroner.
BTW: My understanding is that DC current is far more deadly than AC current -- especially if applied across your heart.Basically, your heart muscles get spazzed into an excited state. When you manage to let go, they're too exhausted to continue working.
AC current across the heart can (under the right conditions) act as a defibrillator . Think of it like having 60 heart attacks per second until you manage to let go (or get pried off) of the wire. I get the sense that people who kill themselves on AC current pretty much cook themselves to death.
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
Electrical tape for much of anything is a complete no-no for any US/Canada code-compliant electrical systems - even in homes at least wire nuts are required instead.
Conservation of Energy limits Ohm's law. If you will, as soon as you draw any appreciable current on a capacitor or battery that's too small, the voltage drops.
As long as their 220 volt system is powered by monkeys rubbing their hair on a dry day, I don't think he'll be just fine.
Considering the style of wiring, I'd say there's a good chance that's exactly how they're powered.
Correct Horse Battery Staple: 72 bits of entropy. Enter "Correct H" into google. When it generates the phrase, that's
Only after that come back here and repeat your "it's not the volts it's the amps that getcha" mantra. How many high voltage circuits there are that don't deliver enough amps to kill? Not many. Therefore: 2kV line kills. Is that simple enough 4 u?
Preserve old classics: copy your collection onto all hard drives.
Take a look at the BOFH articles: (http://bofh.ntk.net/Bastard.html)
You've got plenty of ideas there about what to do with the main power distribution panel.
And you know what? It could be fun.
- "They misunderestimated me."
Grab two of the wires and die dickhead.
The parent's comment about having a master lockout switch installed by a pro is good. Another suggestion if you're dead set (!) on doing it yourself, would be to have a professional electrician, perhaps a representative of your municipal power company, inspect your work after it's complete but before power is applied. You may gain a measure of legal protection from this as well as peace of mind. See your local codes always. (In my county, though, it's only like a page and a half: I (almost) wish there were more regulation.)
It might be a lot cheaper to pay an electrician to inspect than to go full bore and have them do all the work.
My grandfather was a small-town physics prof (Murray KY, "birthplace of Radio") and when HE got ready to replace his own house wiring, he'd just break the power co-op's seal and pull the electric meter off the exterior wall of the house (which killed the power.) The co-op got upset about this until they realized that he had taught basic electricity and magnetism to all three of their inspectors. Thereafter, he had a free ride with them. Died at 94, of natural causes completely unrelated to Ohm's law.
well... Just for a sidenote - when I was younger (13-16) I had a habit to place two nails in a outlet and touch them with both hands for a sec or two... It was hell of a fun, especially since afterwards I had BPM rate at about 130-150 for a while (up to five minutes)... And yes - it was live, it was 220, it was about 10 amps and it still was hell of a fun ;D
And as well - sometimes working with tv sets and the tubes, they have a bad habit to preserve charge for a while after turned off - this is how I have managed to get those 20Kv two times as well... And you know what? I'm still alive and feeling quite good.
for that I should note that I'm not an electrician, I was just a kiddie with some knowledge in electronics.
So - do whatever you please, just make sure it IS disconnected, try to understand where the wires are going before changing anything and better yet make a wiring diagramm while working and glue it afterwards insite the cover. That's about it.
It's fucking stupid to believe that you will be instantly waporised from 220v (or 110 as well), and well - if you will die, consider it as natural selection - you were too stupid...
BSEE, sometimes a C++, assembler, etc. programmer, hw engineer, auto mechanic, audio engineer, and the list goes happily on. :)
:-[
:)
About the panel- the large connections you described on the large wires are very common. They are "bugs" or taps, possibly not insulated other than by the tape. Occasionally sharp corners cut the tape- not good! Very large wire is measured in "MCM" sizes- 500 MCM can carry 500 amps, for ex. I've worked with electricians where we "bugged" onto 750 MCM live. It was only 120/208, but any short would have made a nasty show. I've welded at up to 225 amps and that makes quite a show. Shorting a 750 MCM feed would draw well over 2000 amps for a brief time, and it's quite possibly not fused/breakered if it comes directly off of an Electric Utility transformer. (yes- YIKES!!!) There are high voltage side fuses in the utility lines (at 4,160, 13,600, 36,000 volts, etc.) but they don't usually blow before the transformer blows up (often very explosively.)
The "bugs" are basically a lump of copper with holes for the wire to go in and perpendicular Allen set screws to clamp the wire. There are nice insulated ones available now.
Most larger panels in commercial buildings are 3-phase - 120/208 if supporting device circuits. You get 120 from 1 phase leg to neutral, and 208 across phases.
If the main neutral is loose, phase leg voltages can and will go nuts, lights and equipment will be blown, breakers can blow, etc.
The anti-corrosion compound should be used on large copper stuff too.
New Romex colors (from above comment):
white = 14 Gauge (15 amp circuit)
yellow = 12 Ga. (20 amp circuit)
orange = 10 Ga. (30 amp circuit)
Don't know beyond that- 8 Ga. is usually black jacketed.
The human body and heart has a peculiar sensitivity- DC current between 25 mA and 300 mA can cause VF (ventricular fibrillation) - where the heart flutters/quivers and is not pumping. The electrical circuits are all out of sync and you die. Defibrillators discharge a big jolt which does a really hard reset on the heart sync. circuits. (really!) Sensitivity to the current range varies person to person of course. Less current doesn't affect the heart, and more than 300 mA can stop the heart like a defib. but won't kill you if you get off of the current.
I don't know about AC and VF, but I imagine it applies also.
"110" is usually at least 120- I get 125 most days (measure it!). "220" is really close to 250. Stove gets hotter, clothes dry faster, bulbs brighter (and last only a few months), electric company sells more KW!
Oh, and yes, HIRE AN ELECTRICIAN!!!!
Here's a true story that may have some bearing on your situation:
Once upon a time I was responsible for about 20 people working in an open room that had no windows to the outside. Without power it was pitch black in the room. There were many obstacles that a person could fall on in the dark. I had asked many times for emergency lights to be installed. A fall in the dark would have likely killed or maimed someone in the event of a power outage, an occasional event as we have recently noted.
My boss warned me to keep my mouth shut. Firemen came around doing their annual inspection. my people were out on break so it was just me and the firemen and the Public Address system listening in. I gestured for them to stand still and turned out the lights for about 5 seconds. No one said a word. I turned on the lights.
The following week or so I had emergency lights. That same day my boss was down on my ass because the firemen submitted a list of areas requiring emergency lighting. Mine was at the top of the list. He accused me of talking to the firemen. I, of course, said that I never uttered a word about the need for emergency lights, which I hadn't. The cost for the lighting also did not come from my budget, which it would have if it were installed at my request.
So, to sum up, perhaps an inspection is overdue for the premises where your local firemen would have to resuscitate you, treat you for electrocution and burns, as well as quell the fire you'll likely start, trying to do this as an amateur. Perhaps your firemen could stumble across your electrical cabinet...
Was that before or after you repaired the 2000 volt circuit?
This sig is a figment of your imagination.
> 220 outlet... rats nest...
... nasty cracking noise and half the breakers blew (all breakers in one of the 2 columns)...
I will assume a U.S.A. installation.
Lots of wires may or may not be a National Electrical Code (NEC) violation, and the NEC may not be the most applicable code (could be IEC, NEMA, IEEE, UL, etc.). Circuit breaker distribution panels get very busy inside when all the breaker slots are filled. Usually, you hope that the manufacturer designed it for the worst case (e.g. 100% utilitization). But, codes change over time, and what was okay 10 years ago often isn't okay today. Any modifications will need to be brought up to the current code(s).
> broken-down cloth/plastic insulation strewn everywhere...
Are the insulation chips from sloppy workmanship (stripping), or are they insulation that has fallen off the conductors? Uninsulated hot or neutral conductors is going to be a code violation.
> incoming power cables have some sort of junction in them that's the size of a 1-liter bottle (on each wire) and is covered in layers of electrical tape...
In-line devices and/or splices may or may not be a code violation, depending upon the wires and what's under that tape.
It sounds like this panel has been modified over the years, possibly without engineering supervision, building permits, qualified personnel, and/or inspections. Unfortunately, such is all too common. It may or may not be legal, depending upon jurisdiction.
"Neat and workmanlike installation" is usually in the construction specifications, and subject to interpretation/negotiation by the owner, engineer, contractor, and inspector.
> putting the panel back on
Curious (and scary) failure mode.
Are the breakers ground-fault interrupter (GFI)?
Did everything go dark when the breakers tripped? E.g. both the loads on the tripped breakers and the loads on the untripped breakers?
Did you reset the tripped breakers? If so, what happened?
Were any of the loads (equipment, lights, etc.) damaged by the event?
> How do you industrious Slashdot readers go about fixing a mess like this (on a tight budget, no less) without getting a mains- induced glimpse at the great beyond?"
1. Don't touch.
2. Warn others not to touch.
3. Tell your boss. The rest depends upon he/she and/or your company. If he/she/it is ethical and has a spine, he/she/it will immediately have a licensed professional inspect the entire electrical system and take appropriate steps to shut it down and/or fix it. If not, you have a test ahead of you.
Having been the reciepient of a "mains-induced glimpse at the great beyond?" , I can only suggest that you take the MD into the comms room and show him the problem.
When he asks if its safe, then say that your recent encounter with the junction box from hell has only narrowly avoided an entry in the company H&S Log and you'd rather not cost the company a lot of money in hospital charges.
--- This meme is memory intensive
However, if you can strap the phases to earth, hopefully, any attempt to power them up while you are playing will trip a breaker. Some boxes are wired such that this is relatively easy.
See my journal, I write things there
Im serious. LEAVE IT ALONE. You can only lose. Possible scenarios include breaking something, getting fired, get put in prison and maybe death. I cannot believe your "management" are letting you attempt this. It is tantamount to gross negligence. A clever person can fix things, yes. But an even more clever person knows when to quit. This, my friend is the time to quit. Honest, mate: Walk away NOW.
I wish at was Friday, but I dont want to wish my life away. So I wish it was last Friday.
BTW: My understanding is that DC current is far more deadly than AC current -- especially if applied across your heart.
AC current across the heart can (under the right conditions) act as a defibrillator.
Totally wrong.
50 or 60 Hz is about the most deadly frequency you can get. It does not act as a defibrillator, on the contrary: it sets your heart into fibrillation, very fast contractions that don't pump blood but sustain themselves. What a defibrillator does is send one very large pulse of direct current through the heart. This stops the fibrillations (and the heart). A heart that is is shocked in this way will start beating again of its own accord.
The reason you can't let go when you grip live wires is that all your muscles contract to their maximum, and your grip tightens so you can't let go. If the currect is large enough, you will get burns, but most probably you will die of the fibrillating heart, not because of the burns.
..into a kind of Salvadore Daliesque twisted plastic puddle and opened the main fuse box (old type with wire fuses on ceramic cartridge) to find out why the main fuse hadn't blown.
Turns out that some bright spark had replaced the 30 Amp fuse with 20 swg (0.9mm) tinned copper wire. Needless to say that the plug fuse should have gone as well but didn't and the kettle was full so there was no excuse there.
Moral: Who knows what cak handed bodges have been left to burn your fingers.
Take pictures of the circuit box. Get some bids from electricians to do the necessary work. Present the bids to your boss.
h tml
Don't resign in this economy unless you already have another job lined up.
You can seek protection under OSHA Whistleblower protection as described at this site:
http://www.osha.gov/as/opa/worker/whistle.
You have a right to refuse work that puts you in imminent danger (I think this situation qualifies) if you follow the guidelines given here: http://www.osha.gov/as/opa/worker/refuse.html
I hope your boss lets you get professional help, but consider following the steps given at the above websites if your boss doesn't. It is not the ideal situation, but it will let you keep your job until you can find another one. Good luck.
Did you think about "rebudgetting" this thing? You say the problem is on the utility incoming cables - Surely if you are connecting mass storage equipment there is a UPS somewhere in there? If not this may be the chance to install one and mop up the mess at the same time. It also give you the chance to "hide" the costs of the repair and improve the system. Many UPS include distribution panels ready cabled so they would do away with many of the problems you have.
You missed the joke. He wasn't fired for not obeying a dangerous order from his boss, he was fired for some vuage "unrelated" reason.
one last thing.....
if your boss tries to force you to do the job....
call osha, your local city offices and the labor board.
His ass will be so high in a ringer he wont be able to crap for weeks.
what do you want? a nice severance package or your family mourning your death?
only a complete idiot would tell regualr staff to work on the building's electrical.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Come again? I don't have the capacitor for understanding nerds puns... Thank you Scott Adams!
Most households in Australia get four wires from the street, three phases 30degree apart and one neutral. This allows 240v Phase to neutral or 415v phase to phase. Each phase can draw up to 100amp from the street.
Our house is balanced with half the house using phase 1, the other using phase 2, hot water using phase 3 and our airconditioner is across all three.
Unlike the US, most 'heavy' use appliances such as hot water and stoves are wired phase to neutral (240v) on a 32amp breaker. Even ducted some airconditioners here can work on a single phase setup here.
then you can afford an electrician.
What you can't afford is burning your building down.
Nuff said
Now, take the panel off and start removing that electrical tape. Don't bother turning off the power: that's what the breakers are for (duh)--if you end up shorting something out, the breakers will open to protect you.
One of the things you'll want to do is strip the insulation off all the wires as soon as they enter the box. Insulation wastes vaulable space, especially in small electrical boxes, and is a fire hazard.
Oh, and wet down your hands. If your hands are dry, they might catch fire from the sparks. Get a garden hose near the box and soak down the insides as well to reduce the risk of fire. Safety first!
--- Jason Olshefsky
Karma: Poser (mostly affected by adding this line long after everyone else did)
Even just nicking the wire with your stripper can cause problems like that.
You can have a piece of 4 guage wire, and take a nick out of the wire all the way around when you're taking the insulation off, and all of a sudden, you've turned it into 8 guage in that spot.
It'll work great for a month, or a year, or whatever, but eventually, you're going to overload that particular spot a little, which will heat it up, which will increase the resistance, which will make it heat up more, and so on, and so on, until you have lots of smoke coming out...
But you'll probably be gone by that point, so what's the problem, right?
- ------- There are ten kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who... Huh?
The dozens of people here are right, hire a pro. This is long after the event, but I'll post anyway. I'm not an electrical engineer, but my dad was and he worked for the electricity board (what regional UK electricity companies used to be called before privatisation). Part of my dad's job was being an expert witness for courts and corroners in cases in which people had died whilst trying to steal electricity, either by running cables from other addresses or trying to spoof their meters or whatever. I wasn't aware of this, until one day I thought I'd poke my nose in my dad's briefcase. I picked the wrong day. His homework that night would be to prepare for just such a part of his job. A guy who'd tried to steal electricity from his neighbour. He thought he could "tap into" the cable as it turned out. Honestly, I'll never forget what the corpse looked like. Nasty, nasty stuff. Electricity deserves a lot of respect, and hey, so does you health. So pay for a pro.
The key to working on such equipment is insulation. To whit get some stout bubber boots, a pair of rubber gloves. /., the community have a good eye for this kind of detail and it should put you mind at rest.
As a second line of defence a faraday cage will provide protection for your bodily tissues. Tin-foil works quite well here, cover as much of your body as possible. This must then be insulated with cling-film (ceran wrap) to preven accedential shorting.
Once complete put on the gloves and boots. It's easy to miss protecting and area of your body so best to get someone to inspect your protective clothing before you attempt the work. Better still get somwone to take a digital photo of yourself and post it to
Finally you can start trouble shooting the installation. Grab each conductor in turn (ensuring the power is ON) and give it a good hard yank.
The problem should go away pretty quickly along with your ability to consume oxygen.
To reiterate what everyone else said, you DO NOT ground yourself. You ground yourself with electronics to prevent zapping the electronics with potential from you. This does not work the other way around.
If you're not grounded, you can touch the mains voltage (of one phase!!!) and be OK (aka how squirells and birds run/sit on electrical wires). When I was an electrical distribution engineering intern, my boss used to ponder that if he were stuck on the second or third floor of a burning building, he'd jump out and grab one of the 13K volt phases running along side. Perhaps not really true, but it illustrates the point - if you're isolated at the same potential as the wire, you're more or less OK.
Back to the subject: On the back of all of your local electric company trucks, there is a decent chance that there is a sign that says "Not grounded? Not DEAD!".
_sig_ is away
So resistence...is not futile?
No, no, no... not futile... fatal!
See? Resistance is not fatal...
The power companies (at least in the US) watch for sudden changes in power usage patterns. Sort of the same way credit card companies do. If you go from a bill of $50/month to $5/month they may come over to inspect the lines after a while. This is one way that pot growers get caught, their power bills suddenly skyrocket from all of the grow lights.
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
If this was your basement and you wanted to do something simple, that would be different. At work, and on something big like a distribution panel, don't even think about it -- call in a licensed electrician and get it cleaned up.
What's the worst that could happen? You kill yourself, burn your building down, and get your heirs sued for damages.
http://drteknikal.blogspot.com/
Uh.... The higher the resistance in your bodily tissues, the more damage the current does as it passes through you. I think you meant to say that the key is to become a better insulator than objects around you.
Many years ago I had a house trailer that had a fire in the back bedroom. The fire was caused by a short in a power supply that worked its way up the power cord and then into the plastic box which then caught the wall on fire.
If the metal box is not grounded properly with the safety ground then it is true it will not switch the breaker. I am talking about if everything is done correctly, in my opinion, the metal box wins as far as safety goes.
The situation where a wire is loose inside a plastic box is as you describe. What I have seen more of, however, is a bad connection inside a box which causes heat at the bad connection.
Specifically those misbegotten outlets that let people push a wire into a small hole that then catches and hopefully connects to contacts in that little hole. I much prefer the screw connection and copper wire bent just so it forms a solid contact under the screw as it is tightened.
I have a BEET degree and learned about wiring initially from watching and helping my father wire our new house after the walls and roof had been built but not closed. Dad was a cautious man as far as electrical safety.
I have a lot more tools and knowledge of how things work than Dad did but as far as practical knowledge as to what works when pulling and connecting wiring, well, I learned a lot of that by watching and doing.
I wish you luck with your plastic boxes. I do agree metal boxes can bite you with their sharp edges but I don't move so fast anymore so I will just take my time and do what I think is best.
I wonder if they ever made a ceramic electrical box? I know there were porcelin fixtures long ago but I don't think I ever saw ceramic or porcelin used as a outlet or junction box. That would be the best of both worlds as far as fire resistance and lack of sharp edges. Hmmm, dzimmerm porcelin outlet boxes. Only $10.00 a box and guaranteed to withstand up to 2000 degrees heat without catching fire. LOL. Yeah, how do you fasten the very brittle porcelin without breaking it? Wood screws, I guess.
dzimmerm
Jumping to correct solutions slowly is better than jumping to incorrect solutions quickly.
With the latter solution, if it hasn't rained for a while, then the ground is too dry and it doesn't drain the power and so flip the MCB (or blow the fuse). With the former solution, bits of corrosion can reduce the conductivity between wire and pipe and they cease to work correctly too.
The modern way of doing it is to stick a diode-based system on the neutral wire (behind the meter) that returns to the power station and attach the ground/earth wires to that. This ensures that any electricity that floods through ground goes straight back to the power station, and that the returning circuit current cannot instead go to earth and flood through someone/something that is touching an earthed item.
Now, even the more modern method relies on a component that could break and you wouldn't know it had broken until too late. This is why plastic is good. The best defense against wires touching the plastic covering and so slowly melting it, is to have a fuse of appropriate size in your plug. Wires only melt when too much current is going through them. If you have a fuse rated lower than the maximum current for all the wires in the device then that will blow before a wire catches fire. All UK plugs have fuses in them (although lazy people often just stick 13 amp fuses in them - even if it is only a lamp). Do US plugs have the same?
No, I didn't. It's not !that! hard (with a good lawyer) to prove that the real reason you were fired is because you displeased your masters by not obeying their criminal command. The key is to make sure you document things all along.
- there's a good chance you'll die or be hurt
- there's a good chance you'll lose all power to the room/floor/building with no warning
- there's a good chance of fire
- you (or your estate) could be held liable for any bad results
I know what I'm doing with power wiring. I do most of the indoor power work at home when something needs to be done. I've added a branch circuit when I lived where that was allowed.I will not touch the power wiring at work. The day I can't get an electrician for any work, I'll shut that circuit off, or I'll go elsewhere.
I was at the Mindstates II conference in Berkeley, listening to a bunch of old hippies talk about hallucinogens and altered states of consciousness. This lady gives a presentation on trepanation, you know, the ancient practice of drilling holes in people's heads? Anyway, back in the seventies, she somehow got it in her head that it would be a fun thing to do, but she couldn't find a surgeon willing to do it to her.
You can see where this is going, right? Yup, she did her own trepanation, and made a home movie of it, too! Cotton above the eyes to soak up the blood, local anaesthetic, an exacto knife and a dremel. She cut back a flap of skin, and went to work on the bone with the dremel. Slowly and carefully (don't want to go to fast and stick a dremel through your brain), filmed in graphic detail. I've never been so scared watching something in all my life. I'm sure my seat's armrests still have finger marks in them, and my arm had bruises from where my friend was grabbing it a bit too hard. Even knowing she survived the process, it's just not something you can watch dispassionately. The flowery new-age soundtrack didn't help. After gouging out an inch wide hole in her forehead, she sewed the flap of skin back up. She went on to mention that after the process was finished, she "seemed to notice a slight change in her base level of consciousness" theoretically due to the increased flexibility of the braincase letting more blood and therefore more oxygen into her brain. Yeah, I need a "slight change" in my consciousness about as much as I need, uh, another hole in my head.
Anyway, if this guy does go ahead with the repair himself, I hope he films it for us.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
read a fucking book or take a fucking class before you pretend to know anything about electricity.
Did anybody else notice the two links he left?
One going to a racing website, probably his own.
And the google search turned up only two results and neither of them had anything to do with electricity.
one was "Has anyone else had the fantasy of being behind a girl
with really long hair in a library or movie theatre and
having the oppurtunity to touch and jerk off into her hair
without her knowing?"
and the other was "With the addition of
more sweets, he had her touch and jerk his rod, then told her
that it tasted like a lolly-pop..."
*Ignoring the goofup with "insure" used rather than "ensure", but that's not a *big* deal.
Since you hade to post about it, you really aren't fucking ignoring it, are you?
Get a life.
... to fix it.
If he's as knowledgeable about electrical wiring as he is about Unix, perhaps something "good" will happen.
The next time he comes in two minutes late he'll be fired. Or whatever other trivial, but technically legitimate, reason they can find. Not that I really disagree with what you advise, but I'm a cynic...
Debunking the "59 Deceits"
I figured the results of my google search would atleast be enough to show I was kidding.
Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
Well, yea, if your rich and can afford hte $30 for one.
Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
Yea, instead of listing to my advice just grab wires at random and hold on tight.
ohh lordy some people
Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
There's probably a thousand people that said it already, if the mains box is shooting sparks, power it down. If there is no shutoff there, cut the tag on the meter box, open it up, and flip the shutoff there.
After the electrician has worked on it and turned it back on, most likely after replacing your panel, and doing a lot of violent things to your existing wiring to get it replaced, call the power company, explain that it was had to be turned off at their box to fix the wiring, and they'll send someone out ot retag it.
Save the old rusty mains box/panel if you want to give the utilities guy some idea of what was going on. Mostly in the midwest USA noone asks questions
about that sort of thing.
And of course, the electrician will most likely add in an internal shutoff so you don't have to go to all the trouble again.
I've seen electricians work with live 220 before, but being one who doesn't like pain, or electrical devices shooting fire while working in the dark with a dim flashlight, I leave it to the guys who worked hard to get certified for that nasty ass job.
I know how to do the job properly, and if push comes to shove I know how to safely work with much
higher voltages. But I simply won't do it unless it really is a life and death issue, because working with live power really sucks. And thats under the best of circumstances.
If you can't afford that, you shouldn't be leasing SUN equipment. :-)
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
Exactly, that was what I was trying to refer to when I said the outlets with the holes in them for the wires.
I have had to fix other folks outlets that used that style of connection. I do not know if it fails due to poor design or if there is something that is being done wrong. I only know it fails.
At least with a screw terminal you can snug them down or test them for tightness when you suspect a failing outlet or connection.
dzimmerm
Jumping to correct solutions slowly is better than jumping to incorrect solutions quickly.
I've had similar problems but not to this scale. The answer is, figure out what your job is, do it, and tell your boss clearly that other stuff is not your job and to hire a professional so you can get back to work.
Just the other day I was telling my boss about a dead outlet. He asked me to replace it. I told him he should consider hiring an electrician. He said isn't that what a computer guru handles? I told him politely that that is not what I do, not what I was hired for, not what I've been trained for, etc.
I resisted the urge to tell him that not everything that involves electricity is a computer and not even everything involving a computer is my job. I am on the verge of informing my other boss however.
My job is supposed to be training teaching staff to use computers in the classroom.
A friend of mine was a forman on a job site several years back...
The power had been turned off the day before, but no one checked that morning... and other contractors had been in and out all day...
One of the lackys, only 22, grabbed a piece of romex to strip it... he put the dykes on it and stripped off about 2' when suddenly he had both his hands on bare wire and he got fried, 120V across his arms/chest and he was dead in 30-40 seconds it took a guy near him to pull the wire out of his hands.
Moral?
1) If you AREN'T a professional, HIRE ONE
2) If you ARE a professional, CHECK THE BREAKERS!
My friend has always blamed himself for this, even though no one else did... he had to give the news to the family (including young wife) of the guy who was killed...
. . . and programmed on 286's with only 64k of RAM. . . and we LOVED it!!!
--- I'm going to get a score of -1 for this post because the mods are fuckers.
I think the point may have been that quitting a workplace where they are so willing to cut cornerst is probably in your (as a worker) best interest.
± 29 dB
Are you trying to kill -9 yourself?