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New Dell Clickthrough Software License
Petrol writes "I just read that Dell is installing a new mandatory click-through software license at first boot. From the article, Dude, you're getting screwed:
'Kat and I just received the Dell Inspiron 5100 notebook we ordered from Dell Canada. We quickly ran across problems.'"
Problem with that is, if I got an OEM laptop or computer the first thing I'd do is format the thing. How can they prove I read the licence if I needed to boot the thing to read it?
I'm a coder in a company that is fully compliant with all licensing agreements -- word is that someone let things slip before I was hired on, and the company paid a buttload of cash after getting audited.
.NET Framework." What the f*** does that have to do with installing a required security patch? It's like the sign at Wal-Mart saying employees of competitors are not allowed to compare prices. Maybe they can get away with it, but that doesn't make it right.
So you'd think that before we install a Visual Studio upgrade, we'd all get together in a meeting room and go over the EULA we will all be required to agree to.
(Ok, have you finished laughing yet? Good, I'll go on.)
As you already guessed, nobody reads the damned EULA... except me. I no longer read it from top to bottom, but I skim it for the latest additions. This earns me some good-natured razzing from my co-workers, but I've discovered some doozies.
Remember those "required patches"? When I installed them, there was a EULA. This one said, "You are not allowed to publish the results of benchmark testing of the
Another memorable EULA quote: I'm forbidden to use Visual Studio tools to make any word processing or spreadsheet application, unless it's a small part of a larger application. Unlike Open Source, if a Microsoft-enchained programmer (like me) invents a better mousetrap, they're verboten to release it.
If end-users actually read the EULAs (like our heroes in the article), there'd be riots in the virtual streets. As it is, nobody reads the EULA, and ignorance is bliss.
Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
Now, they figure no one reads the EULAs anyway, so why bother even providing a copy?
.02
Duh!
First off, I have worked in customer service/tech support and have heard exactly "who reads those things anyway?" "you just click ok." Right.
Second, you are surprised that CSRs don't have ALL the information they need to do their jobs? Policy changes daily and even though the CSRs are the "front line" they are never told until it's too late.
Third, I just dealt with someone today (not computer related). They clicked through a document they should have read. It explained the policy they were trying to excuse themselves from. The exact quote was, "I saw the thing I clicked through, I never read those, no one does. You can't expect me to now agree to that." Sadly, this is commonplace. It's not advantageous to read them or ignore them. If you do read them, you have to go through a lengthy process to return what you disagree with (no company expects that more than a handfull of people will ever decline), if you do agree what good does it do you? You either a) didn't read and comprehend the rights you were signing away or b) you did know, you knew it probably wouldn't matter, and when it did matter, you already sold your soul.
That's why these things should be illegal.
That's my worthless
You can't do anything without hitting a key and agreeing to the license. Hit the power off button!
Let's start a pool on how long Dell takes to respond to this. I've got fifteen minutes from post-time. Anyone else? Prize: oh, I don't know, karma or something...
Carousel is a lie!
all I can say is "press yes" or "I agree"
hey.. I always agree..
whatever, what on earth can a license from them accomplish anyway?
Perhaps I have been using open source software for too long and am out of the loop, but do these things honestly matter in hardware.. You get a warranty, that is all I care about..
Maybe I am missing something here, but to agree with these stupid licenses on websites that all state they can be changed at any time for any reason would be the legal equiv of suicide in the real business world..
Guess I am just agreeable.. too much floride in my water or something..
anime+manga together at last.. in real time.
I'm finally connected to a Customer Care representative... She insists she doesn't have copies of the agreements, and that I'm supposed to go online and look them up myself. (?!) She says to use a public computer if I have to.
I think we've reached a new low for customer support!
This only loaded for me halfway but I think that the courts have said in the past that anytime something says you have to agree to its terms in order to read it, it's been declared invalid. Is this accurate?
Any key?
The worst part is that they wanted him to press a key that doesn't even exist on his keyboard!
Dell have something similar to this already.. its an agreement that you have to accept which is part of their BIOS - first time you switch the machine on it comes up with a whole bunch of T&C's which you have to 'hit any key' to accept.. the machine then resets itself (removing that screen) and the system will boot through the BIOS as normal.
They have had this for at least the two years we have been buying their workstations & servers.
"Hey! Unless this is a nude love-in, get the hell off my property!!"
If this guy documented the steps he took, I suspect if he was to go to a judge, the judge would consider any agreements past that point unenforable. An "agreement" is just that. If one party is not given even a portion of the agreement's content, the entire agreement can be found to be invalid. If they can't provide agreements after that much work, any legal enforcement of those agreements would be in serious question.
Of course, lots of software has the agreement in the box, and you can only view it after breaking the seals (making the software unreturnable). Most companies try to get around that by saying you can get a refund if you don't agree to the terms, and then fail to provide a channel for such refunds. Again, as they have broken the agreement, I doubt any further terms would be enforcable.
Sig under construction since 1998.
Dude, your website's getting screwed.
Call me old fashioned, but I like a dump to be as memorable as it is devastating - Bender
Ok, an EULA for hardware? We're venturing into the land of the absurd here. What's next, installing new components in your computer is reverse engineering? I can understand software EULAs, but hardware? Hardware isn't just a license, it's tangible. I really should be able to do with it what I want (excluding using it to beat someone or something like that).
Help I'm a rock.
Dell's Software License Policy
Dude, you're getting screwed
28 Aug 2003
Kat and I just received the Dell Inspiron 5100 notebook we ordered from Dell Canada. We quickly ran across problems.
I pushed the power button to turn on computer. I got the Dell POST screen, then a screen from Dell (Photo):
But there are no license agreements in the box that the computer came in. [There are some shrinkwrapped CD containers, but the "Terms and Conditions of Sale (CANADA)" that came with the invoice says:
I've never agreed to those Terms and Conditions, to my knowledge, but I assume they think they're enforceable, so I can't open up the shrinkwrap to see if the license agreements are in there, without automatically agreeing to them.]
So I called the only Dell number I could find on my documentation (1-800-847-4096) and spoke to a customer support representative. I told her what was on the screen, and told her I couldn't find the license agreements I'm required to read and agree to before pressing any key.
She put me on hold while she looked into where the license agreements might be, and eventually transferred me to technical support. The tech support agent told me her database was down, so she couldn't look up anything at all (I hadn't even told her what the problem was yet), and I'd have to call back in an hour.
I call back, and speak to a tech support woman. She says: "press Tab." I explain that I can't without saying I've read and agreed to documents I don't have. She says "press page down". Same problem. She says "scroll down". I explain it's not a Windows screen. She says "insert any Dell-shipped CD". I exlpain the problem of opening the CD packaging.
She insists I have to press a key. I ask her if she really means that I have to agree to the licenses before it's at all possible that i've read them. She says "yes". I explain that that's not acceptable, and ask for her supervisor.
Her supervisor insists it's a Customer Care issue, and not tech support, and that there's nothing he can do. He can't explain why they sent me to him. He enters my info into the call log databse, and I go to call back Customer Care.
So back into the hold queue I go.
I'm finally connected to a Customer Care representative. [Pretty much each sentence in the following was interspersed with long, long times on hold.]
She looked up the call log to get the background info. She insists she doesn't have copies of the agreements, and that I'm supposed to go online and look them up myself. (?!) She says to use a
Do they force you to sign the license or click accept? NO
Can you return the laptop, get money back and buy another product? YES
And really, how problematic is this license really, to me it looks like a ordinary Windows EULA.
Proud patriot and republican voter.
And I just ordered a Dell Inspiron 5150 yesterday. :-/
Dell's Software License Policy
Dude, you're getting screwed.
28 Aug 2003
Kat and I just received the Dell Inspiron 5100 notebook we ordered from Dell Canada. We quickly ran across problems.
I pushed the power button to turn on computer. I got the Dell POST screen, then a screen from Dell (Photo):
SOFTWARE LICENSES
- Before using your computer, read all of the software license
agreements that came with each program that you ordered.
There may be several agreements to examine. To comply with
the terms and conditions of the software license agreements,
you must consider any CD or diskette set of Dell-installed software
as BACKUP copies of the software installed on your computer's
hard-disk drive.
- If you did not order Dell-installed software for this computer,
or if you do not accept all the terms of the licenses, please call
the customer assistance telephone number listed in your system
documentation.
Press any key on the keyboard to indicate that you have
read all of the software licenses and agree to their terms.
Be Direct TM
Dell TM
www.dell.com
But there are no license agreements in the box that the computer came in. [There are some shrinkwrapped CD containers, but the "Terms and Conditions of Sale (CANADA)" that came with the invoice says:
"7. Software. All software is provided subject to the license
agreement that is part of the package. Customer agrees that
it will be bound by the license agreement once the package is
opened or its seal is broken. Dell does not warrant any software
under this Agreement. Warranties, if any, for the software are
contained in the license agreement that governs its purchase
and use."
I've never agreed to those Terms and Conditions, to my knowledge, but I assume they think they're enforceable, so I can't open up the shrinkwrap to see if the license agreements are in there, without automatically agreeing to them.]
So I called the only Dell number I could find on my documentation (1-800-847-4096) and spoke to a customer support representative. I told her what was on the screen, and told her I couldn't find the license agreements I'm required to read and agree to before pressing any key.
She put me on hold while she looked into where the license agreements might be, and eventually transferred me to technical support. The tech support agent told me her database was down, so she couldn't look up anything at all (I hadn't even told her what the problem was yet), and I'd have to call back in an hour.
I call back, and speak to a tech support woman. She says: "press Tab." I explain that I can't without saying I've read and agreed to documents I don't have. She says "press page down". Same problem. She says "scroll down". I explain it's not a Windows screen. She says "insert any Dell-shipped CD". I exlpain the problem of opening the CD packaging.
She insists I have to press a key. I ask her if she really means that I have to agree to the licenses before it's at all possible that i've read them. She says "yes". I explain that that's not acceptable, and ask for her supervisor.
Her supervisor insists it's a Customer Care issue, and not tech support, and that there's nothing he can do. He can't explain why they sent me to him. He enters my info into the call log databse, and I go to call back Customer Care.
So back into the hold queue I go.
I'm finally connected to a Customer Care representative. [Pretty much each sentence in the following was interspersed with long, long times on hold.]
She looked up the call log to get the background info. She insists she doesn't have copies of the agreements, and that I'm supposed to go online and look them up myself. (?!) She says to use a public computer if I have to. I ask how to know what companies have software on m
You're getting slashdotted!
If you actually read the article, you'd notice that is was a BIOS screen, not software.
With that said, changing some crap in the bios passed the screen (??@#$?) but it wasn't purely software.
"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act" -- George Orwell
In this situation, one needs to write a letter stating one's problem or complaint in clear, calm, non-abusive language. Look up the corporation's VP of Customer Service, Chairman of the Board of Directors, and Chief Legal Counsel (all names should be available through finance.yahoo.com). Send the letter to each of them at the address where the company accepts legal correspondence (also available from public sources). That course of action is far more likely to get results in difficult or complex circumstances than endlessly e-mailing or calling worker bees.
Remember, the worker bees aren't fibbing: they really can't do anything outside corporate policy if they want to keep their jobs
sPh
And shut the fuck up.
Please send me $699 for the use of my username. Thanks.
The idea is that Dell put a clickthrough license IN THE BIOS that will not go away until you say you have agreed to its terms, even if you try to boot by some alternate method such as a Linux CD.
If he COULD shutdown and boot from something else this would not be an issue.
It's really unfortunate that because of what SCO, Microsoft and other such companies have done to the technology industry, companies like Dell have to resort to things like this. I mean, what is the world coming to when you are basically FORCED to accept something that initially we were given the choice to accept or not accept. What ever happened to shareware, where you could pay for it if you honestly wanted to support the company, or not? Or better still, freeware, where you had to make good software to get any sort of support from the computer industry at large? This is a sad day, indeed...
+5, Female
why would anybody who cares about license agreements, linux, etc., buy a Dell product???
Look mates, the computer you need is the one with a picture of fruit on it, 'nuff said.
Troll alert.
Why bother with this toss.
I had a problem with my recent Dell Laptop, I should have a $450 rebate and my packing slip only said $100. The only reason I brought the laptop was because of this rebate. I tried calling Dell and they said I needed to talk to my sales rep, his name is Eric Coley at eric_coley@dell.com. He apologized and said they would send a new packing slip and that I should not send in my rebate for the $100 yet. A few weeks later nothing, I keep calling and leaving messages and emailing and no answer. Perhaps one of you could get through and tell him Blaine Hilton is waiting his response. You can call him at 1-800-WWW-DELL, choosing option 1 and then entering his extension of 58682.
I've heard other people have the same problem. I guess the next step is to file complaints with the FTC, and the BBB. I also have wasted over 20 hours in this whole mess.
There should be a law against frivolous license agreement clauses, deliberate use of obscure language, and misleading statements about people's legal obligations. Why isn't it fraud to trick people into agreeing to things by deliberately hiding them in mountains of legal text? This is an abuse of the entire concept of a legal contract.
Here's the article text, because cypherpunks.ca does indeed seem to have found out the hard way that a Slashdot front-page feature is Considered Harmful. Not posting AC 'cause of problems with troll text mods.
- - - - -
Dell's Software License Policy
Dude, you're getting screwed.
28 Aug 2003
Kat and I just received the Dell Inspiron 5100 notebook we ordered from Dell Canada. We quickly ran across problems.
I pushed the power button to turn on computer. I got the Dell POST screen, then a screen from Dell (Photo):
SOFTWARE LICENSES
- Before using your computer, read all of the software license
agreements that came with each program that you ordered.
There may be several agreements to examine. To comply with
the terms and conditions of the software license agreements,
you must consider any CD or diskette set of Dell-installed software
as BACKUP copies of the software installed on your computer's
hard-disk drive.
- If you did not order Dell-installed software for this computer,
or if you do not accept all the terms of the licenses, please call
the customer assistance telephone number listed in your system
documentation.
Press any key on the keyboard to indicate that you have
read all of the software licenses and agree to their terms.
Be Direct TM
Dell TM
www.dell.com
But there are no license agreements in the box that the computer came in. [There are some shrinkwrapped CD containers, but the "Terms and Conditions of Sale (CANADA)" that came with the invoice says:
"7. Software. All software is provided subject to the license
agreement that is part of the package. Customer agrees that
it will be bound by the license agreement once the package is
opened or its seal is broken. Dell does not warrant any software
under this Agreement. Warranties, if any, for the software are
contained in the license agreement that governs its purchase
and use."
I've never agreed to those Terms and Conditions, to my knowledge, but I assume they think they're enforceable, so I can't open up the shrinkwrap to see if the license agreements are in there, without automatically agreeing to them.]
So I called the only Dell number I could find on my documentation (1-800-847-4096) and spoke to a customer support representative. I told her what was on the screen, and told her I couldn't find the license agreements I'm required to read and agree to before pressing any key.
She put me on hold while she looked into where the license agreements might be, and eventually transferred me to technical support. The tech support agent told me her database was down, so she couldn't look up anything at all (I hadn't even told her what the problem was yet), and I'd have to call back in an hour.
I call back, and speak to a tech support woman. She says: "press Tab." I explain that I can't without saying I've read and agreed to documents I don't have. She says "press page down". Same problem. She says "scroll down". I explain it's not a Windows screen. She says "insert any Dell-shipped CD". I exlpain the problem of opening the CD packaging.
She insists I have to press a key. I ask her if she really means that I have to agree to the licenses before it's at all possible that i've read them. She says "yes". I explain that that's not acceptable, and ask for her supervisor.
Her supervisor insists it's a Customer Care issue, and not tech support, and that there's nothing he can do. He can't explain why they sent me to him. He enters my info into the call log databse, and I go to call back Customer Care.
So back into the hold queue I go.
I'm finally connected to a Customer Care representative. [Pretty much each sentence in the following was interspersed with long, long times on hold.]
She lo
Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
If you do read them, you have to go through a lengthy process to return what you disagree with (no company expects that more than a handfull of people will ever decline), if you do agree what good does it do you? You either a) didn't read and comprehend the rights you were signing away or b) you did know, you knew it probably wouldn't matter, and when it did matter, you already sold your soul.
How much worse do things have to get before EULAs reach the legal standard of "agreed to under duress" for unenforcable contracts?
you're getting slashdotted.
1. Boot from floppy
2. fdisk
3. Install OS of your choice
. . . slashdotted. :)
Can we get an AC post of a mirror or the article text please?
everything in moderation
I did read it, which is why I said "what's the big deal"?
Dell has included that press-through for at least a year - this is not new. This must be the first time he's bought a Dell in a while.
Most of these Eula's are unenforceable anyway.
He doesn't agree and is returning the computer, which means for him the issue is OVER.
If he DID accept the agreement, it is aplicable only for software he will obviously not use anyway, so again - WTBD?
"You're either outstanding, or outprocessing"
where's the any key?
I'll turn into a supernova and burn up everything. Well I'll turn into a black little hole and you'll turn into string.
Uhm, licenses you are forced to agree to before reading them are null and void! Under contract laws, these arrangements are illegal. A contract entered into under misleading or coerced circumstances is broken. Even severability clauses may not apply ( IE, if some part of this contract is found to break a law, then only that part of the contract is broken, and the rest of the terms are still binding ). Since you can't even read that clause if it existed, it doesn't exist.
Essentially, the defaults of copyright, customer service, and warranty laws would then apply.
Bad move for Dell, as whatever rights they want you to throw away, you can't! Since the 'License' is non-binding, well. MUHAHAHA!
I mean come on! It is a piece of hardware, a tool to do a job. What's next? Will I have to sign a EULA to get a router from the hardware store? I mean, I could use it to carve a sign that says how much the router manufacturer sucks, so I could see them putting a clause forbiding that in there EULA. The whole thing is just stupid.
I recommend not buying from DELL. It's as simple as that. I don't buy software that comes with a EULA, and I am certainly not about to start buying hardware that does.
Isn't that where they are moving all the jobs?
Just go with the flow, everyone is doing it. Oh and btw, Solient Green is people, but if no one tells, then it isn't really so...
Automatics are for old men
My dad's Dell PC arrived on August 11th... by late afternoon I assembled it and had him hooked up to a new ISP. And one day later (if you recall) the PC was hit by the Blaster worm.
My dad was not happy... The thing was fresh out of the box, and here I was explaining to him that the patches had been available at microsoft.com since mid-July, and Dell was shipping unpatched software.
Dude, This site may help you understand the nature of software ownership enforcement
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
Do you think you are so damn important that they will come after little old you? Just agree or if your are some worried about signing your rights away then don't and use something else. When the hell do software companies bite you? When you don't pay for their software, that's when. Not violating the EULA. Every response about getting bit is because of software audits where you didn't have enough licenses. I have never seen someone busted for violating some minutia in the EULA.
IF there is one thing I learned in the hi-tech world today... licensing don't mean much.
Ask SCO
Ask Napster
Ask M$
Today's licensing schemes everywhere are so complex... my grandma can break the laws.
When it comes time that someone actually tries to enforce one in court, the fact that no one ever reads them will make a good case for them being invalid - it shows that sticking a bunch of text between a user and using a product they just bought is not an effective means of establishing a binding, legal agreement.
paintball
So if I go to the store and buy a software package, then get home and read the EULA and disagree, can I take it back?
Has anyone ever tried this? I might go buy some cheap game at BestBuy and try to take it back and tell them I don't agree with the EULA.
Let the war begin!
This person doesn't want to read the license. He wants to cause trouble.
"You must be new here."
People on Slashdot regularly fight incessantly for pedantic, yet idealistic goals, because they have nothing else to do with their time. I'd get used to it.
From the article:
they figure no one reads the EULAs anyway, so why bother even providing a copy?
This whole incident is a great example of an interesting progression of trends these days - zillions of home users have no idea that software licenses really mean anything, and now a huge vendor (Dell) doesn't even bother providing a copy of a license. But they're still forcing the user to agree to it before they can boot their new computer. What's the point then? What's the legality of forcing the user to agree to something that is actually impossible to agree to (given that it doesn't exist and can't be provided by the company)? When are we going to see an overhaul of the licensing patterns in this country, so that they're not so silly and empty? Next thing you know, SCO is going to try to get in on this Dell licensing issue somehow... Why not just say, "By clicking here, you agree that we can do whatever we want, whatever that may be, whether or not we inform you beforehand"? I can see the follow-up posts now... "they already do that"
Here.
Messing with the bios allowed him to bypass the screen and NOT have to agree to anything, so why send it back now? He can read all the EULA's he wants without agreeing to anything.
Hmmm every factory worker must have been asleep the whole day then. The same thing happened to the Precision I just purchased. No paper in the box except the shrikwrapped XP recovery and colorfull 'howto plugin mouse picture'
He had to agree to the license in order to reach the point where the hard drive could be formatted. The EULA screen appeared when he attempted to boot from CD.
Even if they "forgot" to include it in the box, DELL offered no way for him to review the licenses other than telling him what software was included and told him to look on their websites.. ASSUMING that he had a computer with internet access AND that the EULA were the same for the OEM and non-OEM versions of the software.
Basically, if you really care about what you're signing, you shouldn't buy a Dell.
is not in the corp. directory.
What if somebody published .NET benchmarks?
What if somebody wrote a standalone Word Processor/Spreedsheet with VB Stuido?
What legal grounds does MS or Dell or * have via EULAs?
I have no answers, only questions.
"Dell has included that press-through for at least a year - this is not new. This must be the first time he's bought a Dell in a while."
and....?
"Most of these Eula's are unenforceable anyway."
is that legal advice?
"He doesn't agree and is returning the computer, which means for him the issue is OVER."
so? I'm glad he brought it up, because I had been recommending Dells, now I wont. Obviously that doesn't apply to you, but I got bad news for you: You're not the only person on the planet.
"If he DID accept the agreement, it is aplicable only for software he will obviously not use anyway, so again - WTBD?"
more legal advice?
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
In case the site is slow, here is a mirror.
Martin Studio Slashdot Policy
.. shrink-wrap the laptop and stick a piece of paper on it.
"By openning this package you agree to the following license."
Dell doesn't want customers like this, and they'll be happy to give em their money back if it will make them not buy from them. No large business would want to deal with someone like this.
So you are saying Dell is choosing who is the *right* customer? This is the type of customer Dell should want. They have a problem with the way they handle their EULA. Hopefully this will help them to fix the problem. The user never said they wouldn't agree to it. They just wanted to see the whole license which they couldn't. Dell is the one to blame here, not someone following the rules.
He's right. Here it is:
a sp
http://studentlicence.one.microsoft.com/DevLegal.
Also for fun, check out the anti-JAVA propaganda in clause 7 which says that using JAVA can lead to death.;-)
The MSDN EULA is even worse:
http://msdnaa.oit.umass.edu/EULA.asp
You can't implement a "general-purpose word-processing, spreadsheet, database management, or presentation graphics software products or an integrated work or product suite whose components include one or more general-purpose word-processing, spreadsheet, or database management software products"
Since you can't program on Windows without using the MSDN documentation, you're screwed.
My inspiron 2650 came with this feature almost a year ago. I called Dell and asked them "What if I don't agree with the license?" He said, "Boot off of your new OS CD and format the hard drive."
I was like OK. That was what I did. If you do format the hard drive, then you're not bound to the terms. If you never use that OS, then you are fine.
Okay maybe it wasn't a click-through process. But it said "Press the space bar to agree to the terms of the license agreement."
So, I don't see what the big deal is. You're not forced to agree. You're not agreeing by using the laptop, so what?
I think this guy's watched Dumb and Dumber a few too many times.
Before I may enter the website? Before I walk in the store?
How about before I get in the car to go to the store? Before I get internet access?
Before I leave the house in the morning? Before I get a credit card to pay for my ISP?
Before I wake up? Before the internet is invented?
Before I was born? Before the great landmass of Pangea split into the continents we know now?
Before the land that time forgot was forgotten? Before the cosmic dust coalesced into the planets of our solar system?
BEFORE THE FABRIC OF TIME, SPACE AND DIMENSION WERE TORN ASUNDER BY THE GREAT GOD ALGOROTH AND FASHIONED INTO THE UNIVERSE??
Fuck it, I'm getting an Apple.
This is unbelievable. These companies expect us to abide by these agreements but don't even take them seriously themselves. If anyone had paid even the slightest bit of attention to this situation at the factory they would have realized the circular logic of this. The god damned lawyers want us to abide by these things, but even they realize that no one reads them. They make such a big deal about the fact that you are entering into an agreement when you click okay, and yet are not even capable of providing you a copy of that agreement to read. Fuck these companies. I have recommended Dell systems to people looking for the cheap, easy, pre-set-up computer for a long time. I have done this because I ahve some *excellent* Dell systems...one that is nearly 8 years old, runs 24/7/365 and is still on it's original IBM HDD. Now Dell has started in with the integrated soundcards, the garbage hardware, and now totally unfeasable click through agreements. I'm sure I have sold more than a few Dells in my time with my recommendations (and no one has ever complained) but they will not be selling any more as a result of my recommendations. This is the last straw.
I'd just send this off via registered mail:
....
Dear Dell,
By opening this letter, you agree to the terms of the revised license agreement herein:
You agree that any prior End User License Agreements to which I have agreed are now invalid.
Thank you,
I mean it's on the keyboard. I guess I have to call tech support and insist on pressing the esc key. I mean if they say any key that should apply so those bastards better make it work.
The first time I turn on a new machine, there's a bootable install CD in the drive.
How do you do that if the computer is set to check the hard drive for a boot sector before it checks the CD for a boot sector?
Will I retire or break 10K?
"By clicking here, you agree that we can do whatever we want, whatever that may be, whether or not we inform you beforehand"
Well, think again.
1. No sig. 2. ???? 3. Profit!!!
If I read it right they put it in BIOS?
Then in Germany they have to disable it or refund. Legally it's a defect of the machine. Every EULA and other crap the dudes invent in their hybris is plainly null and void in Germany.
If you buy something every rules you are forced to accept after the purchase is considered void. And if you are hampered in the use of such a good it is considered a defect and you are entitled for remedy or refund.
Dude, you get charged to ship it back.
There are far too few people like you left in this country. Rock on, never quit. If only everyone would give Dell a hard time about this...
The big deal is that consumers are expected to agree to any and every one of these liscence agreements that comes along. Yes, the majority of the clauses are unenforcable. Yes, the "contracts" may be completely invalid (no consideration, no negotiation, post-sale conditions...).
Do you have the time and money to fight it in court if the company that made the software decides to "terminate your liscence" for some violation? Or sue for breaking one of the terms of the agreement?
Elsewhere upthread, someone points out that the Visual Studio EULA does not permit you to make a word processor. What if you run a company that makes software, your developers took your advice and just clicked through that agreement, and wrote a word processor? Would you like to pay for the legal battle over the enforcabillity of that clause?
Two things:
1) EULAS are only valid if people actually give a shit enough to follow them or care. I disregard EULA's completely and are largely unenforced or unenforceable. They are legal CYA for the most part.
2) Is the EULA in every language that might be spoken? If not I'd bet they have a hard time even attempting to enforce it. Have your non-english speaking IT guy install a fresh copy of whatever on it before he gives it to you..
Karma means nothing to me, so suck it...
"Causing trouble" is how change occurs. If everyone just sat back and accepted things like sheep, where would we be now?
Why do you read slashdot if you're one of the sheep?
It's the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man.
Ya know, like, the one just posted above you?
Did you have to buy their laptop? NO
Apparently he had to buy A laptop - his only real mistake seems to getting a Dell.
Do they force you to sign the license or click accept? NO
Dude, he didn't click on it.
Can you return the laptop, get money back and buy another product? YES
Dude, he did return it.
The complaint is why they did this, and will it become standard (since NOONE reads the dang things, as Dell's logic goes...)
In other words, Dell, you just lost a Dude...
Skippy
Not using the software doesn't mean the EULA doesn't apply to you - for example, if you've legally installed any MS software, including security patches, in the last year or so, you no longer have the right to run or publish benchmarks of the .NET framework. Period. Or for Media Player 9, too. This is even if you don't use the software in question anymore, or even if you didn't use it at all. The idea that they're unenforcable is open to debate - they're certainly enough of a legal wedge to make life difficult for you. If they _are_ unenforcable, then it should be a violation of fair trade laws to even show the damn things at all. It's a fucked up part of a fucked up industry and hassling people over it is about all you can do. The fact that a manager at Dell told him that he should just click through and that it didn't matter is grossly irresponsible - meaningless or not, the correct answer is that he'll have a copy of the EULAs in the mail to him the next buisness day. This was newsworthy as much for how shittily Dell support handles it (and for what it reveals about how important they consider EULAs) as much as for the existence of the screen.
shutdown and boot from something else.
What if the computer won't let you "boot from something else" without agreeing?
Will I retire or break 10K?
So, did they just violate the DMCA?
-- Seq
serial killer software
"but by now they're so commonplace and so ignored..."
They're not ignored by the courts. And that's the real problem.
Here's my lengthy editorial on the subject of shrinkwrap "licenses", and why they're pharmaceutically-pure bullshit. I'm disappointed to see that, in the years since I wrote it, the situation has gotten worse, not better.
Schwab
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
Agree. People like to beat on this EULA business because it is a chance to take a cheap shot at some Big Evil Corporation that we're all supposed to loathe.
A bit of thought should indicate that any agreement or license that says, in effect, read and agree to my terms before using this product but can't be read without making use of the product is going to be difficult to enforce.
What'd he expect the Dell license to say that was different from all the other licenses in the industry? If you wanna be that anal about it, call Dell and tell them you are putting the credit card payment on hold until Dell FedEx's you hardcopy of all those licenses.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
You doin't think the computer industry making people agree to things they haven't read not newsworthy?
Companies telling people to lie?
I read the liscenses, and I would have done the same damn thing.
"So some Dell tech forgot to put the damn license agreement in the box "
2 points:
1) how do you know they put one in normallt?
2) they didn't have a method in place to get one to a customer, not even mail.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I am happy to own an Apple Power Macintosh. Apple doesn't screw around with its users. Apple doesn't put all kinds of weird icons like AOL, MSN, EarthLink on my desktop. The computer comes out of the box with a blank desktop, no gimick license agreements, and best of all, everything works well all the time. Good God, why oh why do people WASTE their time with Wintel?
My boss just won the raffle for an old company laptop. He went out and purchased a wireless PC card. When he installed it and loaded the software, the software said to install the Windows 98 2nd Edition installation CD. Well, he didn't have one since it was a recently retired company laptop, and installation CDs at the company are VERBOTTEN except for the IT department. I told him if he had an Apple, everything would have worked from the beginning, and he still would not have had to install any additional software. He spent 5 hours playing around with installation CDs at home, calling the wireless PC card company to see if they could just email him the drivers, he's even contacted the company IT department and they haven't gotten back with him yet. By golly, that old laptop sure was a bargain. That's 5 hours he could have used for spending time with his family, having fun, or doing something truly productive. I guess it comes down to "What is your time worth in your life?" Personally, I don't have any time to waste and I need everything to work out of the box with no fuss.
Apple, it's the way to go for personal computing needs. All you can do with a PC is use it as a space heater, a door stop, or an enclosure for a fireworks event.
I'd like to see them go to court over this stuff sometime. With any other type of product, you have some sort of recourse if it totally sucks, but not with software. According to the terms of the EULA, it doesn't have to actually do anything, but if it does do something, and that something is bad, then it's not their fault.
I've grown to hate dell so much in the last few years. That tech support call is vintage dell. I haven't had a good experience with dell tech support in so long, I can't even remember the last time. Their service personel are hopelessly incompentent...grrrr.
Let me just give an example:
I used to work for a company that had sold a large number of dell rack servers with PERC 3 (i think) RAID controllers. Don't know who made these controllers, but they sucked. BIG TIME. It was to the point where the systems with NO redundancy, just a simple harddrive, were far more reliable.
Every time a RAID controller died, we called dell, and every time they managed to destroy the damn RAID information! EVERY TIME! It didn't matter if they sent a tech, or tried to give us phone support, BAM! The whole thing went into the toilet and we had to try and rebuild it to the point where we could get some information off it.
I've seen a damn situation where a dell tech had to go replace a FRICKING HARD DRIVE. A HOTSWAP harddrive, in a computer that didn't HAVE a raid problem, and the bastard managed to kill the RAID! All he had to do was pull the bad drive, and slot the new one in, and the damn thing would have rebuilt ITSELF!
And on top of all of this, they are SO stingy about sending parts, or replacing faulty equipment. I am NOT going to spend a month rebuilding a whole box one part at a time. That is UNACCEPTABLE! I have to spend hours on the phone trying to work through tech support on an issue where I already know what the problem is and I just need them to send me a fricking part!
I really can't come up with a company I'd be less willing to buy a computer from. I'd buy one off a blanket from a cracked out junkie in Times Square before I'd call them again.
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
BUT bad people are trying to change all that. They've come up with a proposed law, called the Uniform Computer Information Transactions Act, or UCITA. UCITA would, among other things, explicitly make shrinkwrap licenses fully enforceable. This would be a very bad thing.
UCITA is already the law in Maryland and Virginia. If you live in those states, move!
For more information on why UCITA is bad, click here. Find your state representatives here. Tell them what you think.
More people would read/obey license agreements if they were shorter. Allow the user to click on certain clauses for more detailed information.
You don't think it's a reasonable request to see what terms they are asking you to agree too?
I spent 2 hours on the phone trying to tell the rep I had a dead motherboard. But he had to go through his list of questions before issuing a service call.
He'd sue them for selling him a defective product.
Of course, he could also have just documented the process he used to not sign the EULA, and if it ever came to it, just point out that he never agreed to it.
paintball
I don't understand why people buy Dells and HP's and the like. Don't other countries have Windows-less laptops? Here in Holland it's not that difficult to find 'em. If you look at the front page of the dutch computer chain Computer-Land here: http://www.computer-land.nl/ ...you see they offer all their laptops "EXCL. Windows"
Not having a Dell/HP/IBM logo on it doesn't seem like a huge disadvantage.
The only way to agree to the EULA is to lie. It asks you to read all the licensing agreements for the software on the computer, and agree to them, before accepting this EULA.
Can't read 'em, because the EULA is in the way.
Can't agree to the EULA, because you haven't read the licenses.
Goto 10
Not to mention that Dell support told them to "just accept it", and they were unable to provide them with the documentation to which they were supposed to agree.
-lw
Mods: Disagreeing with me != my post Offtopic / Flamebait.
World without hate or war, invaded. Tragic?
Which means, as noted here in a bunch of other msgs, it's a slow news days and there is nothing of real news to post.
If Dell were somehow blocking using the machine without accepting the license and/or using software, that might be an issue worth commenting on.
This is not news, and not even an issue worth mentioning at dinner.
"You're either outstanding, or outprocessing"
This is more of an issue if you are in fields like medical, defense, and other such data / privacy oriented environments. Agree to a EULA that lets a third party monitor data on your computer in these environments and you could conceivably go to prison if not get sued. The factory images can't be trusted, and are always unsuitable to business use. As a result most business or government systems are imaged before ever being put into use.
The other problem is the license agreements are forced to be agreed to blindly without an option to decline. It would be different if the message on boot brought you sequentially through all software liceneses, with an opportunity to decline and still use the hardware. Afterall, it's the hardware that I'm buying, especially if I want to use Linux. The license agreements may be commonplace and ignored, but unfortunately there also presently considered legally enforceable contracts. Makes me wonder when someone will prove a point on this by making a license that requires the turnover of a persons' estate when they die.
Okay, the first sentence refers to software you *ordered* above and beyond the default installed software and is only commentary. Not a legally binding statement.
Every default installed software by Dell will have its own agreement that you will individually have to agree to.
It's the SECOND sentence that's the real kicker and I'm suprised that everyone's missed it. It states that you agree that the CD's you got with your laptop ARE your backups. (Legally, everyone's entitled to ONE backup of their media) Which means you legally CANNOT make a backup image of your harddrive. Because you already have the backup software on the CD's.
I gotta slashdotted!!111
There's an easy away around the EULA. I always install my EULAed software stoned drunk. No contract is valid if you're not in your sane mind.
Another alternative is to have your 5 year old child to install the software. He can't agree to anything.
You don't actually need to agree to the EULA to run the software. But if you don't, your license automatically falls into standard copyright law which basically gives you more rights than most EULAs.
toss this 8====D wanker!!!!
Absolutely. As a business they don't have the time or the resources to dedicate to something that 99% of the planet just ignores and moves on. That's the beauty & evil of a click through license, put enough leagalese in it and people ignore it.
As a rock-in-roll Physicist once said, No matter where you go, there you are.
Faced with this screen I turned the computer off, and booted it from CD. FreeBSD installation CD that is.
The article says, they tried that, but that Windows started to boot. I guess, they did not try hard enough, or that the Dell's BIOS has changed over last year...
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
First of all, I completely agree that some of the EULA clauses in proprietary software are absurd. (If I remember correctly, Microsoft did remove the benchmark testing clause at some point, however.)
But open source software has some equally bad doozies.
For instance, I write a software application similar to phpMyAdmin. It's open-source by nature since it's written in PHP, but I don't use the GPL or a free software license -- I sell the code and the users are then free to make any modifications they wish, but they have no redistribution rights (much like the vBulletin license.)
This software lets clients update a database easily. It uses MySQL as the backend.
Recently, MySQL changed their client license to the GPL. This means that ANY application that uses the MySQL client software (e.g. mysql_connect() and mysql_query() in PHP) must now be GPL, or you must pay a license fee to MySQL. This has upset many developers, and it will cause PHP itself to drop the MySQL client libraries since PHP isn't a GPL application. (The MySQL client libraries will be a separate download.)
Basically, the MySQL license change has polarized the development community into those who say "F*ck 'em; everything should be under the GPL anyway" and those who say that MySQL led everyone along until it became popular, and then decided to cut off their developers.
I have four choices now:
1) Release my application under the GPL, which grants redistribution rights to anyone I sell it to (i.e. anyone could buy it once and put up the application on Joe Blow's Download Site for free). I don't consider this a viable option because I don't want to allow redistribution rights for free.
2) Pay $220 per server to MySQL for my application. That is to say, pay $220 for our database server, and force my clients to pay $220 if they don't want to use our database server and hosting service. I don't consider this a viable option either, because I feel that it's blackmail.
3) Only use old versions of MySQL with my application.
4) Switch to PostgreSQL.
Obviously, #3 and #4 are what I've decided on. This means porting over 2500 lines of code to ADOdb (a database-independent PHP layer which I have used before with great success) and then testing everything with PostgreSQL instead. It means learning an entirely new database, and it means pulling ALL of my existing customers to a new database.
So while you may say that "Microsoft suxx0rs" because of their EULAs, I say that open-source often does the same thing. Look at Red Hat's absurd EOL policy. Why? Because they've finally figured out what step 2 in the following equation is:
1) Release open-source software
2) Charge people money for your product after you've locked then in, since they've already decided to base a business/software product around it
3) Profit!!
Only this won't work for MySQL, and it won't work for Red Hat either. I'm switching away from both. They've both been great for me, but I don't consider blackmail a viable business plan.
Simpli - Your source for San Jose dedicated servers and colocation!
Has a violation of a EULA ever been successfully prosecuted? Not copyright violation, but a company successfully getting a conviction that someone did or didn't do something printed in a dialog box they clicked on? I haven't personally heard of any, so if someone could enlighten me, I'd appreciate it.
.NET benchmarks. Uninstall all your software and prepare to meet our lawyer.") at the vendor's discretion.
A couple thoughts on this:
How is it proven that you clicked the "OK" button?
Doesn't this create a situation much like "submarine patents" for the average user, in that it just sets up so many conditions for use that if the user was aware of them beforehand, he wouldn't buy the product in the first place, but rather creates a legal exposure for himself later?
Something requiring a signature is generally understood to be legally "serious", and often reviewed by a lawyer. Is my and my lawyer's time taken fully reading and analyzing the EULA's contents billable back to the software vendor? Most things I buy don't require me to make a substantial additional money investment to be able to use them.
I think we're doing ourselves a disservice if EULA is either unserious ("Just click OK...") or serious ("You posted
~ Whence do you come, slayer of men, or where are you going, conqueror of space?
Companies that write software should have IP lawyers who work through these issues.
If they let their coders light up new machines in an environment where the wrong click could actully cost them money, then they get what they deserve.
"You're either outstanding, or outprocessing"
So basically your warranty is only good if you either don't open the packaging or create a paradox which destroys the universe?
Or, if not that, how about a license that is very simple, such as "Only one copy of this software can be running at a time"?
Of course, receiving the source code best, but a simple license at least allows you to understand it without spending a hour reading the leagalese.
Honk if you're horny.
No agreements necessary
1. Boot from floppy
2. fdisk
3. Install OS of your choice
And how does this solve anything if the EULA is in the BIOS as is the case with the new Dell Inspiron 5100 notebooks?
It is impossible for you to know the person did not want to read the EULA. The point was that it was impossible to read the EULA. They asked several people for a copy of the EULA and they did not have it.
Dude, must be a slow day at Slashdot.
Dude, let's argue over the details of another software license.
Dude, everyone is required to start his/her post with 'Dude', followed by a quip, much like mine above.
One point of having articles like this is to warn people (such as myself) not to buy Dell computers. I was considering it, and now I know better. Yes, I do read licenses and I don't click 'ok' if I don't agree to the terms. This may have saved me some frustration, time and money.
Yes, because we have seen what happens to people when they make the people in power angry. That's why Slashdotters are sensitive to legal issues with whatever they do. They don't want to be locked away for 20 years because some scumbag found a technicality (he swapped the order of his PCI cards! That was forbidden by the EULA! DMCA!).
It is also important to raise people's awareness of EULAs before they become even more rediculous. The consumer already gets the short end of the stick with most EULAs, there's no reason to give even more power to the companies.
I read the internet for the articles.
"You agree to be bound by the terms of the license sealed within this cellophane as soon as you break the cellophane." Bullshit, fuck you, hope you enjoy your class action lawsuit.
They say the first thing to go is your penis. Well, it's either that or your brain. I forget which...
Again, if you give a rats rip about Eulas - like you're a reviewer and actually could be held accountable for adverse comments, etc., then you should be on top of the EULAs.
As for Dell's handling of the issue - they don't staff their support for this kind of thing as they are not interested in people like this as customers. They are refunding his money, not throwing him in jail, case over.
Also, who knows, maybe they did have staff added who were informed OVER A YEAR AGO when they started adding these boot screen.
"You're either outstanding, or outprocessing"
Another case of not reading the article I see...He did call Dell and it got escalated to the Manager of Customer Service who told him that he could not send the licensing agreements and told him to lie by clicking through anyway without having read the agreements. The author of the article said this was unacceptable, and the customer service manager said that the only choice left was to return the computer.
As for the Dell license being different...it probably isn't, but I think it is quite ridiculous to force users to agree to a supposedly legally binding document without being able to read the details.
This is nothing new. His points:
1) You have to argee to a license agreement before Dell boots the installed OS.
IT'S NOT THE BIOS. It's a hidden partition on the disk. Just change the BIOS to boot a CD/Floppy and get on with your life.
2) Dell didn't include license argeements for any other software, but by clicking on the Dell argreement you argreed to those argeements.
You're installing Linux, so don't bother trying to find those anyway.
Get a life people! Use the computer, don't bitch about bullshit! If you need a lawyer, get a lawyer.
Most of these Eula's are unenforceable anyway.
/.ers do, but that doesn't mean it's going to hold water in court.
Really? Are you a lawyer? How did you reach that decision? What country are you discussing when you say that?
For Canada, you're quite wrong. There have been cases and EULAs have been upheld.
In the US, it's more questionable. There have been judgements either way, but from my reading of this article it would apear that they are more likely enforceable than not. The ProCD case is pretty damning from the POV of the average consumer. You don't even need to be able to read the license before agreeing to it as long as you can return the software afterward. Isn't that fun?
There are exceptions. The license cannot violate the law, nor can it be "unconscionable" (yeah, there's a term that'll be fun to define, just like "pornography"). The appellate court's ruling is not binding except inside of it's perview, and even then only specifically to Wisconsin. But it's apparantly a well regarded Federal appellate court and its decision is going to be cited/referred to in any other cases regarding EULAs.
IANAL. But I'm at least willing to do a Google search rather than spout my opinion on this kind of thing. I find most of the more absurd T&C's in EULAs to be "unconscionable", as I'm sure many
Seems there was already something in the past which grants them some rights to anything developed with one of their tools or passing through their networks, even if unintentionally.
Their legal team probably gets loaded on sodium pentathol before coming up with these things in a fit of giggling.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
My company just bought a couple of Inspiron 5100s, and we were able to bypass the click-through entirely. I hit F2 and went into the BIOS and moved the CD-ROM above the HD in the "boot order" list. Then, I inserted a RedHat 9 bootable CDROM. Tah dah! Never ever agreed to their click-through license.
So some Dell tech forgot to put the damn license agreement in the box - BFD.
Good attitude. So what if your car dealer forgets to give you a copy of your lease agreement, or if your realtor does not provide you with the required home-related documents. They're obviously looking out for your best interests, right? Just sign something and be done with it...
Of course, you'd be screaming bloody murder if this was the case. It's not that fact that the docs were missing, but that Dell would not make them easily available once the error was pointed out.
That's too bad for Dell. They're just driving a growing market to other manufacturers.
If I'm using your software, then I have to abide by whatever draconian license we both agree to. The hardware, however, is mine. I paid for it, I own it.
What is the BIOS? Is it software? Is it part of the hardware? AFAIK, it's software. I can install my own BIOS if I want (similar to installing my own OS on the HDD), and ignore your software license.
Practical? No. Fair? What's fair? The contract we both agreed to defines "fair".
Where is the contract? It's in the sale of the hardware/software. I agree to give you EU1000 for a device and software you described. When the box shows up, I look at it and say "That's not what you described. It has a restrictive agreement attached." So, I send it back.
Think of the EU100 PC. That requires a 5-year MSN contract at EU39.95 a month in order to get the EU100 price. Didn't buy one of those, either, didja? 'Cause what they're selling is not what you want.
The law does not provide for a way to force the vendor to sell what you want them to sell. The free market does that.
Send it back.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, it doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
My quick response is: It's too bad you didn't manage to record those conversations. They'd be good to use in court for anybody who faced down a battery of DEL lawyers claiming "You agreed to the license and it says xxxxxxx".
No... I couldn't read any of the licenses until after I'd gone past that point, so there was nothing for me to agree to.
If they not only don't really expect people to read it, but they also design things so that you can't read it until after it's been "accepted", then it's really shouldn't be binding -- no matter how much they might hope it is.
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
Read the fucking article dude. He didn't want to cause trouble, he just wanted to see what he was legally commiting to *before* doing it, and he was not given that option.
Yes, I think he was probably trying to cause trouble, but in such a case, that is what is called for!
Do you think licensing shenanigans like what Dell is pulling are acceptable? By the legal-letter-of-the-law, he would be held to licensing agreements that he cannot possibly read without first agreeing to them! For all he knows, the licensing agreement for one of the programs on his computer says that all information created with that computer belongs to Dell (or something equally stupid)...
Although you probably click through EULA's, at least you have the OPTION of reading them before you agree to them!
Agreed, the probability of him running into trouble with any of the licenses is remote, but that's not the point. Dell did something extremely stupid, and is not apparantly willing to rectify the situation. AND, his only recourse was to PAY for the return shipment due to a licensing agreement forced on him AFTER the purchase.
I doubt the agreement would stand up in court due to the many issues raised by other readers, but that again would cost him money to find out.
The EULA nonsense we're seeing these days will just keep getting worse unless more people intentionally be an Ass in this way.
Bravo for him...
MadCow.
I used to have a sig, but I set it free and it never came back.
It amazes me that people can take this cavalier attitude about legal requirements when it comes to computers. Would you sign a mortgage if the bank said, "Oh, we don't have the paperwork that specifies your rights and responsibilities right now, but just sign here and don't worry about it?" Would you buy a car without a title? Etc. And yet somehow, when it comes to computers, we're just supposed to click through pages of legalese because "everyone else does."
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
Pharisee: The next person who says, "Dude!" is going to be stoned!
Person A: You said, "Dude!"
Crowd: Stone him! Stone him!
Person B: He said, "Dude!" too!
Crowd: (Yells and throws stones at everyone)
Well, first off he haven't ordered any programs! Secondly, he ain't got no licenses! So he may consider himself having read all of them already.
It goes like this: If you have TWO licences in the box, you need to read TWO licenses to have read them ALL, right? Duh! Well, if you have ONE liccense, you need to read ONE license to have read them ALL. Right? Well, then, if you have NO licenses...you can see where I'm going...you don't need to read NO licenses to have read them all. Make sense??
This took from around 3pm to around 8:30pm today. I'm just bewildered that Dell corporate policy is that users need to lie to use their new laptops, and to agree to legal agreements that it's completely impossible to have read.
If you can't read it, legally, you can't agree to it. It is unenforceable, period. Since it is unenforceable, and invalid on its face, that means the user is bound only by Title 17 copyright law.
Very simple situation.
Perhaps Dell is doing it on purpose because Microsoft is forcing them to use an unacceptable EULA, and this is their way to working around it.
In any event, this isn't exactly a new issue. It's been well covered by contract law for decades, even centuries.
You can't be held to an agreement you weren't allowed to understand.
Yeah, I don't see exactly how he's bucking the system on this one. If he has a problem with EULAs, handling it like this isn't the way to get that problem fixed.
He should have just hit any key, installed his Linux and been done with it. Now he's out of a laptop and has to deal with returning it.
What a shmuck.
Not All Who Wander Are Lost
As was mentioned in the original article, the laptop showed the license screen even with a bootable installation CD in the drive. In order to install a new OS, he would have been forced to agree to the licensing terms of an OS he was never going to use. Why should he have to enter into a contract with Microsoft in order to install Linux?
What happens if/when a court rules that such a EULA *is* enforceable? Do you know what you've agreed to? If not, then it's your own fault. This guy is treating the EULA as if it were a legally binding contract, which is the way software companies profess to want it. There have been some truly outrageous things found in EULA-style agreements over the last couple years. I, for one, read all of them because if it ever really came down to it, I don't want to find out that some shady software company 0wn3erz my network by my own permission.
It's the principle of the matter. If companies expect their users to be bound by their EULAs as if they were legal contracts, then they damn well better present them as legal contracts, which requires full disclosure of the agreement to all parties.
Would you sign a contract you couldn't read?
teeker
Haven't US courts ruled that in order for a license agreement to be enforceable, it has to be made available, in its entirety, prior to being given the option to accept?
As I recall, there used to be a situation with software in sealed envelopes which said something like, "by unsealing this envelope you agree to the license agreement contained herein," and the courts ruled those null and void. This seems to be the same issue.
----------
Something cleverI remember a dispute I was having with expedia once; Microsoft didn't want to do anything until I posted the scenerio on a few websites; within a day or so, a Reuters reporter contacted me, and unsuprisingly a few hours later a Microsoft mid-level manager called me to find out what they could do to make the situation "right" (which they did, to their credit).
With the ease of publishing on the internet and the dissemination powers of a website such as slashdot, it would not be suprising if Dell did respond somehow.
With all this talk of EULA's. I decided to check out my windows 2000 one. So, I went to Start-> Help-> Search -> "End User License Agreement" -> Scroll To bottom of list -> Where do i find my End Use License Agreement -> Open the EULA. I want people to check this out. Seems mine is from some kind of windows 2000 beta or something, allowing me to run 5 copies, but only for testing purposes, and not in a production environment. Does anyone else have the same problem with their EULA, or is just me?
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
What a dickhead. Would you agree to a license you hadn't read? If it was simply a case of forgetting to put the license agreement in the box, they would have just mailed it to him. As it was, there were deep organisational issues which meant nobody knew what was going on or how to resolve the problem at Dell.
Thats only if you boot off Dell's CD. If you have your own boot disk or CD you never see that EULA.
Personally, I would never trust a OEM preload. Who knows what backdoors or rootkits one of the staffers placed on the install. Remember, some one creates the image that is preloaded at the factory.
When in doubt, reformat, in OEM preloads , doubt always!
If there are ways to avoid them completely (like going into the BIOS first, in this case), they can never prove that you saw the license nor that you accepted it.
If companies expect that you'll ignore or that you must just click though to use the product without reading it (as in this case), then they aren't license agreements. They are nag screens with no legal value at all.
I should go call myself FUD. I could make a fortune.
Ah even better
1) Patent the "1) blah 2) ??? 3) Profit!" business practice
2) Read slashdot
3) Profit!
When it comes time that someone actually tries to enforce one in court, the fact that no one ever reads them will make a good case for them being invalid
" No, officer. I didn't actually READ the posted speed limit. May I go now? "
Last I checked, being ignorant of the terms of an agreement one enters into, when those terms are made clear and available, does not excuse one from abiding by those terms.
If the agreement was INSIDE the shrinkwrap (as has been tried before), and you are made to agree to it by opening the box, then you would be right. But, as you are given the opportunity to not agree to the terms, logic (not Law, since Law and logic are not always in sync) dictates that the terms are, in fact, binding.
The REAL jabber has the user id: 13196
What you do today will cost you a day of your life
What would have been funnier is to get dell to send one of their contracted technicians to fix the problem. Then if the tech clicked through he could honestly say he never agreed to the terms. If Dell tried to charge him for said visit, he could go back to the issue of the EULAs not being avalable
wanted: one clever sig,apply within
Not after he changed the BIOS to boot from CD first. Although, when he did, he had a Linux CD in the drive and the computer started booting windows. Nevertheless, the Dell EULA screen wsa bypassed.
It's nothing but crumpled porno and Ayn Rand.
They have your money, it's yours. A contract means agreement to terms followed by an exchange of consideration (i.e. you get they equipment and they have your money), in that order. Sort of like you put your socks on and then your shoes, not the other way around. If it's done in the other order, it's not a contract and not enforceable. It's as if you buy a book at the bookstore, take it home, start to read it and find that on page 1 it says that if you want to keep reading, you have to agree to more stuff and pay more money. It's simply inoperative and you can ignore it. IANAL but that's my understanding of how contracts work, except in some places (certainly not everywhere) where they've passed special laws (UCITA) to make the shrink wrap licenses enforceable.
I've heard this bandied about many times, and I've never heard a really satisfactory answer as to why they're legal *now*. Like everyone else here, I'm not a lawyer...though all my friends are. ;) But, technically, shouldn't all terms of a contract be in place *before* it's execution?
Seems to me, at the point where they have my money, and I have their computer, the transaction is finished. At this point, a EULA seems like an attempt to change the terms of the tacit contract (ie, the transaction) after the fact, and I should have absolutely no obligation to pay it a bit of attention.
If they showed you a copy of the EULA on their website, it might be different. At that point, I could read it and tell them to piss off. Or I could not read it, click past it, and then it really would be my fault and problem for not reading it.
Anyone have an informed opinion on this (as opposed to my barely slightly educated guess)??? I've heard that courts have upheld them, but I can't find a judge's opinion on the matter.
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
What you're saying makes some sense. But think about it for a second - you're saying that Dell doesn't, and shouldn't have to, support customers who care about the legal issues with thier products. If they don't care about it, it has NO FUCKING REASON to be on the machine at all. The fact that it's unlikely in the extreme to ever be an issue for this person notwithstanding.
If they're going to put EULAs on products, they need to take responsibility for it. Period. You don't get to have it both ways.
Note that the Dell people didn't have any way of knowing if he was a reviewer or not - the EULAs he would have had to review were not provided, and were not made available, even after exreme effort on the customers part. The guy in the article obviously DID give a rats ass about the EULA.
Since Dell is incapable of knowing how to access their own alledged license agreements, you can just create one yourself. Of course, your agreement must state that it supersedes any Dell EULA; it will be impossible for Dell to dispute that in any case. Put in any clauses you like and send a copy to Dell (at any of their official addresses, which means it will take many days to get to the correct department to be reviewed. Oh well). Include in your license agreement the clause: "This document must be signed, notarized, and returned by [date]. Failure to respond with any dispute puts this agreement in full force." Or words to that effect. Just make sure the [date] is the same day you send it to Dell.
/. community.)
(this proposal was written extemporaneously, so any tweaks and enhancements are expected from the
This is precisely the reason I will not purchase a Dell product again. My experiences with my laptop have been horrendous to say the least. Two years ago I purchased an Inspiron 8000 laptop which worked great for about nine months. I then began to have problems with the display and the pointer stick embedded in the keyboard. One of the little plastic switches that holds the CD-RW drive in place also broke. Upon calling Dell they instructed me to send the laptop to one of their service centers and they would repair it. I did as they suggested and sent my laptop in for service. Nearly two weeks later I had to call them to get a status update. I learned that apparently there was a $1600 bill now attached to my laptop because there was evidence of "spill and drop damage." I immediately asked for a supervisor, of course one was not available so I hung up and promptly called back. I spent nearly three hours on the phone being transferred from one department to another when I finally got a tech who would at least return the laptop to me without repair. At this point I was quite furious. Upon receipt of my unrepaired, improperly functioning laptop I contacted my state Attorney General's office as well as the Better Business Bureau. A week after filing my complaints there was a message on my answering machine from a representative claiming to be from Michael Dell's office regarding my complaint to the BBB. I do not remember the actual substance of the conversation but to paraphrase the Dell representative stated that I had no right to complain to the BBB because I had dropped my laptop and spilled a "brown liquid" on it. Needless to say I did not return the call and a week later (this has been going on for over a month) I receive a call at my office from another Dell representative who wanted to know why I hadn't returned the call. At this point I was so angry that I lashed out and explained all of my disgust with the entire support process. The representative was kind enough to bring up the history of my complaints and again mentioned the spill and drop damage. I explained that the laptop spends the majority of its time on a desk and had it fallen I would have known about it. After a brief pause she offered to replace my 8000 with a refurbished 8100 albeit with no warranty (my existing warranty was due to expire in another three weeks.) I accepted her offer and quickly received a refurbished 8100 that even had a few small upgrades. During this entire process I was simply wanting my 8000 repaired. The problems were minor and the only reason I had even bothered calling Dell was that I figured why should I make the repairs myself when I can use my warranty? The replacement laptop did make things better but they did not "make it right." I have had the refurbished 8100 for a little over a year now and I am in the process of replacing it (not with another Dell.) The display adapter backlight flickers on and off because the video card is not making good contact somewhere. The case has also developed a few small cracks due to it being overly flexible. After reading this latest episode in the ongoing comedy of Dell errors I can only assume that Dell has lost sight of its original goals and is now driven by greed. First we have to deal with the Microsoft "tax" and now click through licensing and we can't even read what we are agreeing to. It's a shame really beacuse Dell does make some nice hardware.
Take out the hard drive
Put it in another PC
Wipe it clean
Put it back in
Now when you click any key, you are agreeing to nothing.
I have often regretted my speech, never my silence.
-Xenocrates
You're right, Dell doesn't want customers like this. They want everyone to ignore the fine print, not read the licenses that authors harp about everyone not reading, they want to assume the customer is some gullible moron who is just click happy so they can make a buck from them and wash their hands. They don't want customers to realize that agreeing to these licenses gives away rights to develop certain types of software - like GPL software - gives rights to Microsoft and family to arbitrarily and without permission log into your computer whenever you're online and scan it for "illegal" files, they don't want customers to think for themselves or awknowledge that there's a choise. To have a bunch of morons at the support desk and morons in management not even knowing what he's talking about indicates this. They assume that everyone just clicks through. Regardless of the license. Sheesh - next time you purchase a property, juch sign the contract and don't read it, right? Who cares if the agent put another decimal point on his commission (no one reads these, so why not?) and who cares if in tiny little letters there's a mention of a lein that you're now responsible for (oops, but then, who reads contracts). He's not being an ass. You're being a moron, but then you're in good company - most idiots out there don't read the rights they're giving away. If they did, there'd be a hell of a lot more Linux users...
All you privacy and IANAL nuts will mod me down.
but buddy... SHUT THE FUCK UP
god.. ive done tech support for 3 years (IBM, HP, Compaq) we get the ocasional nut case wacko like you.. fuck.. we dont care, theres nothing we can do, WE. DONT. CARE. we arnt paid enuff to care about your privacy rights... oh.. and guess what.. after that screen.. theres gona be another screen for M$ and the evil empire.. ooooohh.. ahhhhh.. *sigh* dumbass
this isnt news.. this started 10 years ago.. and its allready accepted by everyone (is it right? no.) all YOU can do is bitch and complain untill the agree to take back your computer (wich they eventually will to shut you up.
then you can use your money.. and go buy and HP or and IBM... and *gasp* rinse lather and repeat.. cause your gona go over it all again.
i know that all my brothers and sisters in hell desk will back me up on this when i say
"shut up and play your fucking solitare"
The More Knowledge you have the Luckier you Get- J.R. Ewing
If you're not using the software you're benchmarking?
.NET framework benchmarks - Because there's no way you're getting valid data if you're not running .NET under Windows.
duh...
If you nuke and repave your Windows partition with Linux, you had better NOT be publishing
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
This makes me want to go buy a Dell just to tie up their customer service in legal questions. Ofcourse returning the machine shortly after, thus causing more expenses for them, demanding no restocking fee and having them pay for shipping.
1) Remove power.
2) Open box.
3) Remove hard drive
4) Close box.
5) Replace power, boot
6) Go into setup.
7) Select boot from CD-ROM first.
8) Insert CD-ROM
9) Turn off machine
10) Open box
11) Replace hard drive
12) Close box
13) Boot.
14) Install fresh OS from CD
15) ???
16) profit (no EULAs to worry about)
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
Dell laptops support embedded HD passwords as do many other brands. They could set the EULA to refuse to unlock the HD unless you agreed. Locked drives will not even function in other computers.
(Actually, I do own some Dell stock.)
I'm a nature photographer.
Technicially the AC replaced the '!' with a '.', so it must be a derivative work. :)
That's not in BIOS. It's in a small hidden partition on the hard drive that is initially toggled bootable, which un-toggles itself after you accept.
If you fdisk the hard drive and completely reformat it, you will never see the clickthroughs.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
Consumer: I need to get the recall work done on my car for broken seat belts. Dealer: We'll do them for you only if you agree to not to say anything bad about us and we are allowed to inspect your car at any time.
1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
"Joey, you say 'Dude' one more time, and I'm gonna slap the sh*t out of you!"
+5, Female
Perhaps turboing the whole thing would be an appropriate response. It sounds as though the purchasers quite thoroughly exhausted their normal avenues of support, so the next reasonable step in my mind would be start at the top and work their way down. It's worked for me before.
Check out http://www.macwhiz.com/articles/art-of-turboing.ht ml for advice on how to do this successfully. It's really a shame that it seems to be such an unknown approach.
No large business would want to deal with someone like this.
Someone like WHAT exactly? Someone who didn't want to agree to a potentially binding legal contract that they had not way to get hold of for review? I don't know about YOU, but smart people don't go about signing contracts they haven't read. Maybe you have an exceptionally high tolerance for signing away your rights to the things you purchased, but normal people don't.
Besides, I would hope that if everything he says is true that he wouldn't be dumb enough to deal with such a lousy company anymore anyway, so I guess they can get rid of one of those "troublemakers" who doesn't want to sign unreadable contracts.
No, this person is not an ass - you're the ass. This person has happened upon what in the IT sector is a very sensitive issue. Tangled in all this you have self-help, UCITA, the lot of it. Mark Minasi's excellent book 'The Software Conspiracy' goes into this subject at length. The person who confronted Dell in this fashion has done us all a service - they have shown us how CS works, and exposed the hypocrisy of the 'licensing' tactics of the vendors. Just be careful and keep your fingers crossed, that UCITA doesn't become more widespread.
This has been the case since companies wised up that you can copy the CD/disks inside a case and return the original.
You can't read the EULA until you open the box, but if you disagree to it you can't return it because you already opened it.
no comment
Just to be totally certain of your position here- you think it's OK for a company that sells you a product to force you to agree to a contract (AFTER you have purchased said product) that you cannot read, that they cannot or will not provide, that you are bound by if you agree to its terms, in order to use the product you purchased?
/.
Really, is that what you think? Pay money, get product, be forced to agree to a legal contract that you aren't able to review in order to use said product, bought and paid for?
If taking Dell to task over that is causing trouble, I'm all for it. This isn't making life difficult for everyone else; I fail to see how your busy schedule was impacted by this little tiff, as you still have time to post to
..nazis/unprecedented evile/the walking dead.
.asp on that. when the lights come up, there'll be no going back, & no where to hide.
that's right. no contest there. those foulcurrs best get ready to see the light.
doesn't look like robbIE et AL wants to be any part of it. not enough monIE/eyegas? whatever.
from a previous unfairly moderated PostBlocked(tm) comment:
gnu millennium spells doom for stock markup frauds (Score:-1, Troll)
by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 29, @09:17AM (#6823303)
that's right. J. Public et AL has yet to become involved in open/honest 'net communications/commerce in a meaningful way. that's mostly due to the MiSinformation suppLIEd buy phonIE ?pr? ?firm?/stock markup FraUD execrable, etc...
truth is, there's no better/more affordable/effective way that we know of, for J. to reach other J.'s &/or their respective markets.
the recipe is:
consult with/trust in yOUR creator. vote with yOUR wallet. more breathing. seek others of non-agressive intentions/behaviours. that's the spirit.
use key words/indexing to identify yourself/your products.
the overbullowned greed/fear based phonIE marketeers are self eliminating by their owned greed/fear/ego based evile MiSintentions. they must deny the existence of the power that is dissolving their ability to continue their self-centered evile behaviours.
as the lights continue to come up, you'll see what we mean. meanwhile, there are plenty of challenges, not the least of which is the planet/population rescue (from the corepirate nazi/walking dead contingent) initiative.
EVERYTHING is going to change, despite the lameNT of the evile wons. you can bet your
we weren't planted here to facilitate/perpetuate the excesses of a handful of Godless felons. you already know that? yOUR ONLY purpose here is to help one another. any other pretense is totally false.
pay attention (to yOUR environment, for example). that's quite affordable, & leads to insights on preserving life as it should/could/will be again. everything's ALL about yOUR motives.
take care, we're here for you.
as for va lairIE/robbIE et AL, & their disgusting need to suck up to their corepirate nazi sponsors buy use of manipulation/censorship. they are their owned reward eye gas.
mr auerbach seems like a decent sort. icann see how he would be somewhat discouraged
I don't see what the big deal is here. They told him he could go to a friend's house and read the license, but he refused.
For those of you considering an Dell Purchase, I suggest you read it.
Well, yeah, I read the piece. Seemed to me that he was more interested in thumping his chest at Dell than behaving like an adult.
/. than go to court to make the point.
Of course it is ridiculous to try to force users to agree to something that isn't there. But a lot of people would rather whine about it on
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
This is perhaps a problem for the Dell legal department phone number. What are the repercussions of the EULA not being enforceable, that the end-user wouldn't actually have any right to use the software that they just agreed to?
When I was a kid, we only had one Darth.
Is anyone genuinely that concerned about the law?
Looks more like he wanted to make the point that the agreement was invalid, and force Dell to admit it.
"By cashing this check you agree to my EULA and all its terms and conditions and you further agree to indemnify me for any legal expenses I may incur if you decide to give me legal trouble. My EULA may be found on my website at
The article says NOTHING about the clickthrough actually being in the BIOS, just that it *starts after POSTing*. It's in a small (30-50MB or less) partition on the hard drive that is toggled bootable in a shipping configuration. Once one agrees to the license, the main HD partition is toggled bootable and you never see the contents of the mini-partition again, unless you use some fdisk variant to re-toggle that partition as bootable. Guess what - You get the EULA again!
Fdisk that partition away and you'll never see it.
I've confirmed this on my Inspiron 8200.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
This story is particularly timely given the the Canadian Linux Users Exchange is planning a National Windows Refund Day in the near future. Cheers Bill
A post on slashdot containing the phrase "because they have nothing else to do with their time."
That is the definition of rich.
I actually worked at a computer company that sounded a lot like "bell" for a while as a consultant, and I can tell you a few things in regards to this article:
1) Sales Reps, Techies, and CustomerCare reps are all informed religiously about new software/hardware updates, but this more than likely would not have been one of the finer details discussed, even if the audience was a room full of managers. Actually, especially if the audience was a room full of managers.
2) Employees of "bell" are provided with a web connection and email, and they are encouraged to utilize it for business purposes. So someone could have taken the time to email or fax the EULA's provided if the rep was motivated enough to do so.
3) The manager was more than likely being untruthful about being unable to provide his phone number. Everyone at Dell can give out his or her number. (This is a mail order company after all). In fact, if the author would have reached the manager's voicemail, it would have been prerecorded in the usual procedural VM. Furthermore, he has a boss and is required to transfer you to him or her or provide you with his number (covered above).
4) As a person who is distrustful of EULAs, I can empathize with this situation. However, as a former employee of "bell," I can also tell you that his EULA escalation will be the highlight of the breakroom lunch table (curses, jokes, what have you). I abhorred calls like this when I was at the company (and our group would receive them more than a few times). So congratulations: you are now the butt of a joke, and if you are lucky, one of those reps recorded the call. It should be whizzing its way through all of the employee's email boxes as we speak so they all can enjoy a good laugh.
Yeah it's really idealistic to want to READ a contract before you agree to it. WTF.
.. but I bet you won't say it.
I bet if you ever go to court and have to sit there for WEEKS as the lawyers go over every word in a contract, you'll change your tune.
You'll see a lawyer on the other side whose entire life seems to be devoted to picking apart pointless little phrases in the contract.. phrases that now your business and livelyhood completely depend on. He'll pull out court cases, he'll talk and wave his arms, and you'll sit there wondering what he'll pull out of his ass next.
You'll think "doesn't this lawyer have anything better to do in life?"
The computer industry probably has biggest effect on society today and most people don't even realize it. We're to the point now where the that we used to keep safe on paper in our desk drawer, is now in a computer, guarded by some third party's EULA. I'm glad SOMEBODY gives a shit.
I have yet to see a single, documented, upheld court decision asserting that these click-throughs are really legally binding.
Here's a U.S. S
Do you actuall own a Dell laptop?
Hint: I do (Inspiron 8200). And before nuking and repaving my HD (WinXP sucked), I analyzed the structure of my HD. The EULAs on Dell notebooks are in a small (30-50 MB - Yeah, that's big, but it's tiny by today's standards.) partition on the hard drive that is flagged as the boot partition when the laptop arrives at your house. Clicking yes on the EULA will change the flag to the actual partition. Using an fdisk utility to re-flag the EULA partition as the boot partition will make the EULA reappear. Repartitioning the entire hard drive and reformatting it before the first bootup will cause this partition (and the EULA) to disappear.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
I wouldn't be surprised if this approach could be prosecuted under the DMCA.
Dogbert: "Please read me the serial number on the inside of the case of your computer."
End User: 'But that will void my warranty.'
Dobgert: "Call me if anything changes."
It was on the hard drive (the BIOS is just configured in such a way at ship time to boot it first, then boot what you actually wanted to).
What you should do (in the future) is just remove the hard drive before turning it on the first time, and going into the BIOS, then saving changes to the boot order (even if you don't actually change anything). That should prevent it from showing it with a boot cd or whatever.
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
My mom got a Dell Laptop, and a new Dell Printer/Scanner thingy. The AC adapter for the printer was not in the box...
To make an extraordinarily long story short. After speaking to three non-native english speakers, two hours, and two disconnected calls...My new USB cable arrived!
Much to my dismay, I had to call back and keep transferring around Dell's voicehell until I got an english speaking Texan whom I needed to explain for 20 minutes what cable I needed. "It's simple really, I only need the link from the wall to my printer." the reply would invariably come that she'd get me a printer cable. It turned out that I needed to describe a US AC power outlet to get the beginning of the chain and a few more description of the parts between, to get to the printer.
I work in a support environment and it gave me hemmhoroids just trying to deal with Dell suppport. I worry about my job moving overseas too. It's especially horrible that I had to speak to non-native english speakers. It's like they don't even give the people classes in english, let alone the technology they're supporting.
I wonder if the extra time people spend miscommunicating because of this costs more than the savings of exporting our jobs. Hell, I agree that Americans (myself included) are a dumb lot and other people might know their tech better. I think that the time saved in calls and describing stuff and shipping of wrong items would far outweigh the job financial savings for giant mega corp though.
I like the challenge of creating a new non-sig everytime, so there!
I'm all for reading the EULA. I'm NOT saying that I'm against reading the contract.
I AM saying that he could've downloaded the EULA from somewhere else, just like Dell told him. That is, if he wanted to make it work...
The manager clearly made a bad decision NOT to send a replacement. He could've at least checked into it. I don't agree with that, however, DELL is NOT directly to blame for not providing the license. Dell IS directly responsible for putting apathetic souls in charge of things.
All of this is moot, because this guy just wants to gripe. If he's competent enough to put up a website, then he's competent enough to grab the EULA from elsewhere. Not to mention, I don't truly believe he wanted to read the thing anyway.
This is a classic case of people finding something to bitch about instead of bettering the situation. There's a lot of this that goes on here at Slashdot. Many here think they are big thinkers, but some are also big gripers.
There are more important things in the news. This is equivalent to someone saying they can't turn on their TV because the remote control doesn't have batteries. It's either laziness or flat out stupidity.
Sorry, but this is smallish...
So you guys get backups but no original CDs?
Who keeps the originals, and if Dell doesn't ship them, do we have to agree to the license and pay for them? Who
- it is an opinion piece, not law
- the conclusions sought run contrary to consumer protection legislation in many provinces that state that shrink-wrap contracts are void (you cannot agree to a contract of wich you don't know the contents of what you are agreeing to)
- that a contract is a negotiation, and where there is no possibility of negotiation, there is no contract, except in the most petty of cases
- (this is the most important part) that a contract is between 2 persons or bodies capable of contracting.
It is this last point that kills all click-thru EULAs. A contract requires 2 parties. My computer is not a party with whom I can enter into contract with, at least not in the legal sense. For one thing, as my property, it is not capable of taking an independent action. As my property, it also is not capable (in the legal sense) of representing the software manufacturer or other EULA author. It lacks all legal authority to represent, negotiate for, or act on behalf of another entity.Besides, a contract is not "perfected" - meaning, in force, until BOTH SIDES have a copy. Do you have a copy? Did the other side receive a duplicata of your copy (here I don't mean the original text from which they wrote the EULA, but an actual copy of the agreement YOU entered into with THEM). This might sound like nit-picking, but until both sides have a copy of the agreement that was presented to you, the consumer, there is no contract.
It's the old saying: 3 rules for agreements:
- get it in writing
- get it in writing
- get it in writing
This is aside from the whole issue of minors clicking on click-thrus, etc. There is not a click-thru EULA on the planet that can't be broken under the right circumstances.-
Has this happened to you? You plunk down a pretty penny for
the latest and greatest software, speed back to your computer,
tear open the box, shove the CD-ROM into the computer, click on
"install" and, after scrolling past a license agreement which
would take at least fifteen minutes to read, find yourself
staring at the following dialog box: "I agree." Do you click on
the box? You probably do not agree in your heart of hearts, but
you click anyway, not about to let some pesky legalese delay the
moment for which you've been waiting. Is that "clickwrap"
license agreement enforceable? Yes, at least in the case
described below.
There are some painful lines in that decision, such as "Money now, terms later" is a practical way to form contracts, especially with purchasers of software."decision by William C. Young, U.S. District Court Judge
Are you living in the USA?
If so your rights to do with the hardware what you want may not last long. There is a strong (and well financed, of course) movement afoot to restrict computing to trusted computing platforms only.
And I can easily imagine getting a computer with a hardware EULA that requires me to run a specific operating sytem from a specific vendor, that will not boot to anything else and that will have a tamper resistant bios.
But then too, I am a rather cynical fart.
Whos the shmuck? Read the Featured artical befor calling people names. After all he did exactly what Dell told him to do in his situation, i.e. call customer care.
I'd like to know too, since every Inspiron 8000 owner I've met personally was completely happy with their machine, to the point where I reccommended one to my father two years ago. He still uses it and absolutely loves it (Except for wishing he'd ordered the largest HD available instead of smallest). Because of his and others' experinces, I ordered an 8200. It works beautifully.
It had the EULA too. Nothing a Linux install disk couldn't fix, considering that it's in a small partition on the hard drive and NOT in the BIOS as the clueless idiots here that either don't own Dells or never bothered to analyze their HD structure keep claiming.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
If it's an agreement, then by all means the company should have something indicating that I accepted it. Let them produce that in court.
"The software is installed" is not good enough, as there is nothing to say that:
A) I installed it, caused it to be installed, or accepted it's installation.
B) Even if I did any of the former, there is no proof that the software did not in some way malfunction (perhaps due to a temporary computer memory glitch) and thus did not present the EULA, presented it in an unreadable format, or presented a modified EULA that did not match the terms they expected.
C) Even assuming that I installed it, that the EULA was presented in a reasonable format, and that the terms were as they specified, there is nothing to say that the software did not malfunction in such a way that caused it to continue with the installation even after I indicated that I would not accept the agreement.
And this is without going into the whole questionable legality of presenting the terms after the purchase.
EULA's exist only because they've never been seriously challenged.
That Jesus Christ guy is getting some terrible lag... it took him 3 days to respawn! -NJ CoolBreeze
I saw this at work today on a brand new dell desktop. We got 6 new Dell desktops at work yesterday and i was delegated to rebuilding one of them (it came with XP and we wanted W2K). When I was installing W2K on it, I saq that there was a 31 MB partiton at the beginning of the drive with unknown format(as reported by the installer). I have a suspicion that all this click thro crap was on that partition. Or i could be completely wrong... my 2 cents
added to (with corewreckdead spelling errors):
morons claim high ground vs. corepirate nazis/unprecedented evile/the walking dead.
yes, alldough labeled as trolling offtopicals, we always present stuff that really matters to ALL of US, as opposed to sum phonIE shillerIE concocted by deceptive ?pr? ?firm? payper liesense stock markup execrable
According to the article, entering the BIOS setup and switching the boot device to the CD-ROM caused it to boot straight into windows from the HD without the licensing screen, and the screen did not return when the BIOS was set back to default.
No "anykey" - no agreement. It sounds like the author found a way to circumvent the EULA. I don't blame him for returning it anyway though.
In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane. -Oscar Wilde
I think it's pretty obvious that the other end of his calls were manned by automatrons. Does he really think a blow was struck for anyone? The same dorks who fielded his badgering calls, are about as likely to file all this away and see the top brass gets the message, as I am to read a dumbass EULA (much less care if I'm obeying it.)
I'm a fairly ethical guy and try to be reasonable about software/hardware usage, and I think that's leaps ahead of behavior by some that leads to companies thinking they need these insane EULA's. That said, I realize they are unreasonable, but I don't live with fear of black suited men knocking down my door. Granted, I'm not in charge of a company system where the likelyhood of an audit goes up marginally. But this guy was buying one stinkin' laptop. There's places to put your foot down, and I really fail to see how this was one of them.
That said, he's obviously got the time that I don't have to hassle the 'man', so in the end, more power to him.
You know what?
Here's a U.S. Supreme Court Decision that does just that: InfoWorld article
You're acting as if Dell had intent... Dell provides licenses on a regular basis to it's customers. Just because one or two boxes slipped by without licenses, something that is bound to happen, that doesn't constitute ill will on Dell's part.
To say that "you cannot read" the license is not true. The guy could get the license elsewhere.
Yes, this is a royal pain for Dell. You, and others, are trying to make Dell look bad for a routine occurence (something that probably happens to 99% of manufacturers).
But then again, this is a clear case of success envy. Many of you hate Dell just as you hate Microsoft, and you'll try your hardest to find anything wrong.
What does he have to go to court on?
If he went to court, the first question the judge would have is "did Dell offer to refund your money, including shipping costs, in full?". As soon as you say yes the case is dismissed, because you had an option out.
There is, of course, the little niggling problem that there may not be any way to purchase a laptop without software, which (under US law) may constitute illegal bundling (IANAL), but bundling hasn't been pursued for decades and has been worn down by contrary judicial decisions (again, in the US -- the article was about someone from Canada and so it's not relevant).
Or, of course, they could've just accepted the EULAs and then ignored them. If they then broke any of them in a manner such that they'd actually end up in court then they'd get to defend themselves. Uh huh. Hope they're well off, because the legal costs are going to be staggering. Do you have a few hundred thousand lying around to defend yourself against a lawsuit from a major corporation? No? Hope you read every little bit of those EULAs then. Especially since you're probably fighting a losing battle.
It may be thumping, but it's thumping about stuff that should be thumped on. EULAs can essentially remove all of your rights regarding the software, and encumber your ability to do what you want even if you don't use the software. And all without your ability to read them prior to consent, with the only option at that point being to return the software -- which is often non-trivial to accomplish.
By accepting this agreement, you accept the terms of the other enclosed agreements. However, the other enclosed agreements are all contingent upon use of the software. Isn't it possible to agree to this agreement without agreeing to the individual EULA's so long as you don't actually use the software?
However, by not providing the actual agreements they could certainly include an agreement that was not written in this manner, you know, something like, "by accepting this agreement, if you don't use this software, you're assets become the sole property of Benjamin Curtis."
The article text (at least the reposts, original is Slashdotted), *implies* that it's in BIOS but doesn't actually have evidence to confirm that it is in BIOS and not in a small partition on the HD like every Dell manufactured for the past 2-3 years. People assume that if something appears between BIOS and Windows, then it too must be BIOS, even when it isn't.
Don't like the license? Put the install CD of your favorite OS, boot from it, and repartition/reformat that license into oblivion.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
Your honor, my cat stepped on the keyboard just when I was about to read the Dell welcome screen. It was gone when I rebooted the computer to see it again. I think my cat cannot enter legal bindings with Dell.
http://cr.yp.to/softwarelaw.htm
Enough said !!!
To hell with the EULA of the vendor's software, I refuse to use it.
Most recently (a little over a year ago) I did this with a Fujitsu Lifebook P2040.
tell us what the license actually says so I don't have to read the article?
I managed to get The startup splash screen image, and I've put it on my website.
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
They lost more than one dude... I have a 2.5 year old Dimension here that runs Windows (effectively a true Wintendo for me..) and a no-name build running Linux. I was thinking of getting a new Dell since my current PC is a little underpowered for modern gaming but otherwise running well. Well, unless Dell comes back with a REALLY good reason for this idiocy, I won't be thinking about them any longer and I sure as hell am done recommending them to other people.... I'll take the extra hour to just build my own instead.
Alito: A vote for Alito is a punch in the eye to put that bitch back in her place!
If you do it right, that agreement will no longer exist, as it's on the hard drive.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
Not to brag, but I submitted this story to slashdot three years ago.
Dell has been doing this for quite some time.
I'm surprised, nobody has a patented the one-click EULA agreement yet.
First, thanks for linking me to the opinion - I missed this post originally.
regarding your specific post...
If a cooperative software vendor wanted to speed the case to a victorious conclusion, he could just modify 1% of his shrinkwrap EULAs to include an extra provision- something outlandish like an additional $1000 monthly fee as long as the product is installed. The ensuing lawsuit would clearly demonstrate the folly of the ProCD position.
As annoying as the decision was, they did mention that a EULA that says "You owe us an extra $10,000" would NOT be enforceable. See, they're reasonable! ;)
Regarding other aspects of the decision and the Dell story...
First, the decision did put some pretty strong requirements on the legality of EULA's. One was the refund part - otherwise, the decision hinted that a EULA might not be enforceable if the buyer had no ability to terminate upon reviewing the final contract. Seems that MS is certainly obligated to refund for OEM windows. Also, would Dell's refusal to refund shipping be illegal? One wouldn't care too much about shipping, I expect, but it is the principle, isn't it?
Second, the decision discussed that, for the ProCD EULA, there was mention of a further license on the box, and they likened this to insurance sales, where the full policy follows the transaction. Seems to me that any company would be at least required to notify you that further terms were forthcoming. I'm sure that microsoft does this as a matter of course - but I wonder, did Dell? if not, how would that be treated?
Third, Dell absolutely refused to provide the actual license! If this is the case, and the screen says "You agree to every license in the box," but there are none in the box, what then? This isn't a EULA-general argument, more for the specific story. However, I don't see that as being a one-time incident, so it would be nice to know.
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
what a whiny baby. I got a dell laptop and saw the same screen. I rebooted, went into bios, made it boot from cd, put in the redhat cd, and installed.
Ok, so he says windows started booting. OH NO, IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD.
Just restart and try again. There's no reason to make such a big deal. Once you wipe the disk it's not like microsoft is going to come after you in the night.
Although from what I recall of my (long since nuked) "EULA", it had a small introduction to the computer and lots of fancy music, etc. In fact, I think it may actually have performed some configuration of the Windows partition (beyond just tweaking the boot flags) after clicking "Yes".
Also, IIRC, on extremely large hard drives there's a minimum size increment for a partition proportional to the size of the HD. I kind of remember not being able to create a partition smaller than 15ish megs on a 30-40 gig HD, although I can't be sure.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
There are still quite a few steps missing to get there, but at least some work is being done. For example, IIRC there is at least one open source BIOS in the works (anybody remember the links); next we need some kind of access to recycled/recyclable materian, and people willing to work at the asembly lines.
"I'm never quite so stupid as when I'm being smart" (Linus van Pelt)
My first experience with this kind of nonsense was with a box containing the install disks (and by "disks" here, I mean 3.5" floppies, this being about 13 years ago) for Macintosh System 6.3. There, spanning the gap over the disks in their little plastic tray, was a paper sticker proclaiming that, by breaking the seal, you agreed to...something. Of course there was no room on the sticker for the actual contract you were supposedly agreeing to by the tearing of a paper, and it wasn't clear where this "agreement" referred to actually was. But, trickster that I am, I found that I could slip the disks out one by one without tearing the sticker. (Looking back on it now, I suppose I could have cut the back of the plastic tray with a box-cutter, but no matter.)
Since then, of course, this silliness has escalated to the point where the events in the article come to pass: you are required to do something which you could do entirely by accident, which is supposed to signify that you agree to something you aren't told, and in fact have no way of finding out about without doing the thing you're supposed to do. Double Catch-22 ("Catch-44"?).
So how about this: we start sending mail (real, physical mail might make more of an impression, but email could be good for a larf too) to these companies, proclaiming on the outside of the envelope (or, in the case of email, in the Subject: or some other more obscure header line) that, "by opening this mail, you agree to the enclosed agreement". Then, inside, you have whatever agreement amuses you. For example:
If anyone ever tries to call you on their EULA, simply fire back that they agreed to your UALA (User Abuser License Agreement) too, and it's equally enforceable.
"A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
"People on Slashdot regularly fight incessantly for pedantic, yet idealistic goals, because they have nothing else to do with their time."
People on Slashdot regularly fight incessantly for an individual's rights, and idealistic goals, because they give a damn about what you can do with hardware/software that you have legally purchased.
"You must be new here."
Which the Dell defaults to booting in its shipped state. After agreeing to the EULA (plus a small multimedia intro to your machine), the partition is never used again.
Apparently, the Inspiron 5100s have the default BIOS boot order set to boot the HD before the CD. (See a post near the end of this article's comments from a guy that mass-installed Linux on some 5100s where he worked. This was not the case with my 8200 from what I remember, which DID have this EULA.) Pressing F2 at bootup lets you change this to a more sensible order, after which you can insert your favorite OS install CD and nuke the EULA partition into oblivion without ever even booting it.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
Well, I'm about three months out from making another computer purchase. My last two computers were from Dell, but now that they're playing with that kind of nonsense I'm going to find someone who isn't d1cking with their customers.
I buy expensive computers -- too bad for Dell.
Jimdesu
That version of MySQL is as free as it ever was.
The new and improved version has a different license, if you don't like it, why not use the old one?
If you are selling your app for money, what is wrong with them getting in on it to?
So in other words, "The use of Java may kill you, and Microsoft is not liable if you die from Java or if you nuke a city by installing it on a nuclear power plant..."
"The State is that great fiction by which everyone lives at the expense of everyone else." -Frederic Bastiat.
I mean really-
We B&M about the EULA's we see. Some of them are pretty crappy, I'll admit. But has anyone ever heard of a lawsuit or other general harassment over someone breaking the terms of the EULA? By "the EULA" I mean ANY EULA....
I mean, I know I've done it. And in a way pretty conspicuous to the other party- never heard a thing. I know there were some marketing types that were raising hell within the company about it, but apparently their legal department had the same opinion I do regarding the enforceability of the "scary bits" of the EULA.
Personally, I think the "scary bits" are meant to be used as a deterrent for those who know so little about the law that the FUD get's to them.
I apparently forgot that sig != uptime...
But if you don't, your license automatically falls into standard copyright law which basically gives you more rights than most EULAs
Uh no, to use software you must make copies (onto the hard drive or into memory). These have been found to be infringing in court.
Unless you have a license to use the software you are committing copyright infringement.
I wouldn't try the no license trick.
Thanks, I did, and I gave my commentary on it. He's not changing the system or bucking the system or doing anything other than causing trouble for himself. He should have pressed any key and installed his Linux or whatever and been done with it.
Not All Who Wander Are Lost
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Copyright law of protected media entitles the owner to ONE backup.
Generally computer users can make MANY backups (for update purposes), so long as you destroy the previous backup.
That's why the language in the EULA is explicit. You agree that the included CDs *are* your backup. Which means you can't make your own backup, which means you can't make a drive image.
I spent an absurd length of time fighting Verizon Wireless (and, to a lesser degree Citibank) when they withdrew a bill payment from my account and then shut off my service. I wrote a letter via PF and soon got a call from a guy who gave me back my service, cleared my record, refunded $100, and paid for two months of service. Woot.
Interesting idea. How do ya figure?
UCITA is already the law in Maryland and Virginia. If you live in those states, move!
Interesting that Washington DC is right in the middle.
Healthcare article at Kuro5hin
Your assumption that this was an occurence due to something not being included in the packaging by accident is just that- an assumption, and a big one at that. I would be willing to bet that there was nothing different between the way this laptop was packaged and every other one Dell ships.
Regardless, the pure fact of the matter is that Dell is wrong. Pointing that out, and demanding that the company that has already received your money that they respect your rights and not attempt to force you into binding legal agreements that you cannot read after the sale has been concluded is not "causing trouble".
I'm not trying to make Dell "look bad". Fuck, they do that all the time without any help from little ol' me. And just because it's routine doesn't mean that it's right or that it shouldn't be protested. It's the sheeples with attitudes like yours that make sure the rest of us have to deal with this crap.
I don't have any particular problem with Dell as a company, personally. Pointing out that they are in the wrong for this particular tactic doesn't constitute "success envy" (how could it unless I was an unsucessful maker of computers?). I'm using a Dell Inspiron 4150 right now to type this. I never had to agree to this particular license, as I didn't get the system directly from Dell, and it was already reconfigured by the time I got it.
None of that changes the fact that Dell is in the wrong, and pointing that out, or protesting it, isn't "causing trouble", despite what you may think.
But in the case of signatures on paper.. the argument doesn't hold.
People have tried to argue that they signed some piece of paper becuase "Everyone does".. say when renting a car, or something.... and that the terms shouldn't apply to them.
The courts rightly ruled that you know you are being asked to agree to sometihng.. if you choose not to read it, that's YOUR risk, not theirs.... they offered you all the terms up front in good faith.
If you agreed knowing that it was a request by the copyright holders to agree to some terms, and think you can get by by mashing buttons with your eyes closed, how does that exhonerate you? I don't get it.
Yes, there are issues regarding click-through.. but that isn't one of them.
But did you read it? The poster said Most of these Eula's are unenforceable anyway. Which is true.
Both your links talk about having to agree to a license before a transaction is made. It seems he bought the laptop, software and all, before having to click through agreements.
Your second link says:
Some courts have held that shrink-wrap license terms are not enforceable if the contract for sale of the software is formed prior to presentation of the shrink-wrap terms to the licensee.
That spells it out for me. The moment you buy something is when you squabble about terms. If the vender says: "to get this product all you have to do is give me money." That's all the conditions you've agreed to. At that point any conditions the hardware or software try to bind you with are unenforceable.
Linux is only free if your time has no value. Windows is only free if you threaten to use Linux.
Companies need customers like this.
The buying public need to be more aware and need to be willing to raise a fuss about how they are being jammed into a corner and how they are not willing to be screwed at every turn.
What if GM required you to sign an agreement that thay were not liable for a defect in their manufacturing process? Would you be willing to "click through" on that?
Agree to what? I just turned on the computer when my cat decided to walk across my keyboard. After I grabbed him and put him on the floor, windows was booting up.
The solution is quite simple really. Send the device back for repair, claiming you can't get past the first screen. When they ship it back to you, I'd almost guarantee someone at the repair facility will have clicked the "accept" button, assuming you don't have a completely new unit of course.
Casca
If you keep coming out against UCITA, I'm never going to get all the first born children in my state after clueless users blindly agree to my EULA! I need all those children (I'm making a pie) so why don't you keep it down already?
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
So are you saying you don't care what's in the license you can't see but that you have to agree to?
How mind-blowingly naive can you possibly be? You sound like one of the Dell tech support goons the guy was talking about.
These license agreements are making OUR lives difficult, not the other way around.
"...today consumers have been conditioned to think of beer when they see a bullfrog..."
I agree that Dell's response was patently stupid, but if you're going to install Linux, why are you buying hardware that you KNOW comes with the Microsoft tax. For the level of support you're going to get on Linux from Dell, you'd be better off buying a generic laptop with no tax.
THAT SAID: Send your account of the experience to Dell's corporate counsel, and I be some heads will roll.
The point is that the only way to determine if a EULA is legally enforceable is to challenge it in court. Jut because someone puts a bunch of words on paper and tells you that those words legally bind you doesn't necessarily make it so.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
I took delivery of two Dell 600 CS servers a few months ago and they both had the clickthru license. I thought it was the bios but the first boot for the second box was from a OS install CD and the license did not show up like when I booted the first box.
Pedro
----
The Insomniac Coder
I read an article in LinuxJournal where some guy took his vendor to small claims court and won a judgement against them for the windows license refund.
To the original poster, this might be worth looking at or trying.
Key to financial independence: Spend less than you earn. Save and invest the difference. Do it for a long time.
Scary, man. At this rate, they're going to put EULAs on tricycles soon.
OH NOES!!! IT APPEARS YUO DO NOT HAVE ENOUGH MONEY TO PAY FOR DIS HERE PIZZA! WAHT EVER ARE YOU GOING TO DO!?!?
sorry... had to be said, move along now..
And the only way to challenge it in court is to actually violate it and get sued.
You go to court claiming that you don't want to be held to some piece of paper and the clerk won't even bother scheduling your case -- because you don't have one.
No... the S.Ct. refused to hear the case. That doesn't mean that they agree, it just means that they had more important things. Don't read too much into a denial of cert.
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
I have DSL service from SBC. Do I need to say more?
They advertise the service as a being target at SOHOs (Small Office Home Office) and advertise that it is ideal for running servers. But, the end use contract specifically forbids you from running *any* *server* *at* *all*. This is a service that includes a set of static IPs, why would you pay for static IPs if you can't run a server?
Of course, there is no link nor any mention of that agreement on the page advertising the service. You don't see it until you try to register as a user. If you don't register you can not use their email or usenet servers. Not to mention that the customer service people refuse to talk to you if you aren't registered.
I escalated the problem as high as I could. I was told on the phone that they knew about the contradiction between the contract and the advertising. And they didn't care. They admitted that it was fraud, but it was there to let them mess with people who don't understand the law. I could chose to not use the service (and pay the termination fee) or I could sue them. Otherwise, "stop wasting my time."
BTW, they told me that if I did file a complaint or sue them they would disconnect all telephone wires to my home for a minimum of 5 years.
I will be switching carriers at the end of my contract. At that time I will switch my telephone service to another carrier. And, I will never do business with SBC again.
What can I say, at lest Dell is willing to take the computer back.
Stonewolf
I'm not joking. I called in to complain about the flawed BIOS implementation for laptops with the i830M chipset (doesn't allow you to change how much shared memory it uses), and the tech suggested emailing michael_dell@dell.com. I had a response from his staff, by phone, that same day. They were very attentive to get a good description of the problem and how it affected me.
After seeing that stupid screen, I powered down the computer (without accepting squat), booted into the bios, selected the CD as a bootable media, inserted my Redhat 9.0 CD, and rebooted. The windows XP box that came with it is still sealed. No worries for me!
The site is slashdotted! Maybe that guy couldn't even load it at all. My browser has been trying to load it for the past five minutes, and I've only got the first six or seven paragraphs. I just tried Google, and the page isn't in their cache. So how am I supposed to read it if it doesn't load?
I'll agree that I made an assumption. But, betting that Dell only ships EULAs with every other PC is not a good bet.
Once again, you're saying that the customer CAN'T read the agreement. There were other options.
Look, all I'm saying is that this sort of thing is no big deal. You're calling me a sheep over something minute in scale. To treat Dell like they're evil over some line workers forgetfullness (NOT Dell strategy), is just grossly out of perspective.
I am afraid that case law has already established the legality of shrinkwrap licenses in the US. This happened in Procd, Inc. v. Zeidenberg.
--
If you are a citizen of one of the EU countries, please make your voice heard against patents in software. See FFII for more datails.
Thank you
Hamal is an yellow star in the constallation Aries.
It is 66ly away, so it doesn't alter your personality.
That may spell it out for you, but woe be unto you when you find out differently.
The highest court to rule on it, the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals, disagrees. They stated that you merely have to be made aware of a license agreement, but you don't have to be able to read the agreement beforehand. Virtually all software nowadays states on the box that there is a license agreement inside the box, which according to the 7th is adequate, as long as you can return the software for the purchase price if you disagree with the license.
Until there's a Supreme Court ruling there won't be any clear ruling on this, but legal scholars appear to be taking the 7th's ruling as guidance for now. And unless you live in one of the small areas with a contrary ruling, it's advisable that you follow it as well. Ignorance of the law is not a valid defense.
The extra month to develop your own laptop, too? This guy bought a LAPTOP. I know you're talking about desktops, but Dell is pretty well known for their laptops.
I work for our school as an assistant network admin, which means I'm also in charge of the phyiscal setup of the machines at our school. Just recently, our school purchased 10 new dell workstations for the students. They were all running Windows XP when we bought them from Dell, and when we started them all up they all displayed a screen saying "By hitting next, you agree to all of the individual software user end license agreements." Since our department couldn't read the agreements, we had to strip every machine and install Windows 2000, which Microsoft charged us another 65$ for all 10 of them. Not to mention the fact we have 10 Windows XP disks around that we cannot possibly use because we can't read the EULA. Anyone know of a way to get a refund for these 10 licenses we can't possibly use?
"Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is." G.W.Bush
Goons? I've talked to some pretty helpful people at Dell. To characterize everyone as goons tells me you have some sort of issue with Dell that runs deeper than a missing EULA.
My company uses Dell exclusively for our servers. I haven't ever, at any time, worked for Dell.
The manager was wrong - I'll give you that. To give Dell, as a whole, a bad rap isn't justified.
DELL is NOT directly to blame for not providing the license
How do you figure that? It's their BIOS and they're making you agree to a license you can't see!
this guy just wants to gripe
Actually, he's trying to inform the public about something everyone who buys one of these Dell laptops will encounter
If he's competent enough to put up a website, then he's competent enough to grab the EULA from elsewhere.
He's not even sure which EULAs apply because no one can tell him. You do realize that there are different OEM versions very many different products don't you?
Many here think they are big thinkers, but some are also big gripers.
You're not much of a thinker, I gather.
"...today consumers have been conditioned to think of beer when they see a bullfrog..."
Your challenge occasioned me to (re)read the DMCA
The clause I had in mind was 1201(a) [attached]. While the tone of the act suggests it applies to performances and literary works, it is my understanding that it applies to software/firmware/devices as well. It was clearly the intent of Dell that you click to agree and by circumventing this process you are availing yourself of whatever IP is inside the computer, thus circumventing the copyright protection system.
Sec. 1201. Circumvention of copyright protection systems
`(a) VIOLATIONS REGARDING CIRCUMVENTION OF TECHNOLOGICAL MEASURES- (1)(A) No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title. The prohibition contained in the preceding sentence shall take effect at the end of the 2-year period beginning on the date of the enactment of this chapter.
Actually, I didn't characterize everyone as goons. RTFC a bit more carefully.
I've talked to some pretty helpful people at Dell
And the places I've worked at have had completely opposite experiences.
"...today consumers have been conditioned to think of beer when they see a bullfrog..."
You must be a very bored individual.
This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Did you read the article? Try building your own laptop.
The point is that these click-thru and shrink-wrap licenses are getting worse every year and something needs to be done about it. He's just pointing out how absurd it has become. Dell expects him to agree with something he can't even read and be bound by it's terms!
Of course Dell doesn't want customers like this. They just want his money and ANY support costs money.
Note that he wasn't even trying to use any of the software that came with it. He was trying to boot a Linux CD and and a license popped up that wanted him to agree to a bunch of software licenses when all he wanted to do was use the hardware.
Competition Good, Monopoly Bad.
When he installed it and loaded the software, the software said to install the Windows 98 2nd Edition installation CD.
Oh, this is so true. That's why I've been putting a copy of Windows in a subdirectory on the hard drive since Windows 98. It just saves so much trouble, and hard drive space is cheap anyway.
Sometimes I worry that I'll develop Alzheimer's disease, but no one will notice.
Another memorable EULA quote: I'm forbidden to use Visual Studio tools to make any word processing or spreadsheet application, unless it's a small part of a larger application.
...oh, and they're still huge assholes for trying to forbid benchmarks.
I googled around for this clause in context and only found it relating to components that MS was giving away for free. For example, if MS gives away some sample code, they don't want to see it showing up in a competing word processor. That doesn't mean you can't make a competing word processor with Visual C++.
Even though McDonalds gives away katchup packets, I'm sure they'd object to Burger King taking them to avoid paying for katchup on the burgers they sell. Fair is fair.
If someone can post a link to this clause in a broader context, let me know. About a year ago, I started keeping an MS EULA collection and would love to add this snippet.
char *mySig;
Visit msdn.microsoft.com and click on "Terms of Use". For a quicker ride, click here
I'd paste some of the Terms of Use, but then I'd be violating the third paragraph. Actually, taking the fascistic bent (hey, when has Microsoft ever been a stickler on the terms?) you can't write a program based on the information presented there, since it'd be a derivative work of the information presented there (again, third paragraph).
Of course, this posting is also a derivative work.
Dang it!!
--
Given enough personal experience, all stereotypes are shallow.
I would feel pretty good about trying to distinguish ProCD from a case where an end-user buys a computer and just wants to use the darn thing in a manner that doesn't infringe any laws, but without agreeing to any contracts of adhesion. It's not a slam dunk, but that's why my original post said it was unclear. UCITA makes such cases a slam dunk for the licensor.
"If this software is installed by Microsoft, Microsoft hereby agrees to [whatever it is you want them to do]"
Put this in Linux, and Microsoft would be screwed!
Hell why not put a reverse engineering clause in there too for Microsoft only?
The only problem is proving if they acessed it and agreed tot he agreement. Anyone know how to dtect if a PC is inside Microsoft's network, whereupon you can send out an email to yourself stating that the software has been installed?
If that's not legal, just put it in the license agreement that that will occur and that they can't sue you over it and that they agree to it.
Not the case in this situation, so not part of this discussion.
"You're either outstanding, or outprocessing"
The site is slashdotted. The page isn't in Google's cache (at least when I checked). I managed to get the first few paragraphs, but others may not have been so lucky. ...since you apparently have no problem with offering your opinion on a document you haven't seen all of. Good show of irony.
Most dells i have seen in the last year (including, but not limited to : Dimension 4500,4550,4600, inspiron 3800,5150) have come with pretty much the same setup:
drive has 2 partitions:
1) Dell Utility Parition
2) whatever OS Dell had installed. (i've seen 2KPro/XPHome/XPPro)
now that first partition is really a partition with a FAT system running all the diagnostic tools, and has the little "license agreement" thingy in there. (load knopix/lnxbbc/any other distro and check for yourself).
On a machine that comes out of the factory (refurbished or not), that first parition is the active partition. and that's what the machine is going to load first.
Normally, that program displays 2 things: the "please read the EULA" and also "this is your DELL tag for support" (if any). Once you have agreed with that, it set the second partition to active (for the next boot) and chainboot the NT bootloader, which then loads NT. Once you restart, the "normal" NT bootloader starts...
So, in order to bypass that license screen, you need to install another OS, and make it bootable with the "bootable flag" so as to boot normaly after being shut down (read: not MBR install).
I hope this clears some questions about what is what, and how it works... Someone with the technical knowledge would be able to bypass the click through, IF THEY KNEW IT WAS THERE.
IANAL--salt applies
(by reading this, you agree not to make me responsible for your own actions...)
If they want bizarre contract terms from their customers, they need to do it before the sale:
Dell: "Hi, this is Dell. Want to buy a computer?"
Customer: "Yes, sell me a computer. Preferably one that sucks. That's why I called you instead of building one I could trust."
Dell: "You called the right company and I think you will be very satisfied with your purchase. May I have your fax number, or could I give you an address where you can download some documents?"
Customer: "Yeah, uh, my fax number is 555-1212."
Dell: "Ok, I am faxing some legal documents for you to sign as part of your purchase. Once we have recieved payment and your signature to some draconian terms, we will ship your new computer immediately. Thank you for calling Dell." [Click.]
Customer: "Hooray, I'm getting a Dell. Finally, I have a legitimate excuse to complain about how much PCs suck."
Of course, that would never happen because there would be negative market consequences because nobody wants it and they would choose to buy from Dell's competitor. And that's what makes the "agreement" meaningless and unenforcable. Because it it were enforcable, it would be fraud. You disclose terms before a sale, not after a sale, silly.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
I agree with his frustration, but honestly, if your buying a namebrand system (especially M$ henchmen Dell) you should expect to agree to every EULA ever written for any and every version of Windows. All name brand systems pretty much have the standard "This is sold with Windows OS and you agree to all Microsoft End User Licenses by using this system because they paid us a lot of money to ship our systems with their OS and you are not smart enough to build your own and/or install something other than Windows"
The fact that he escalted such an issue shows more of how much time he is willing to waste to prove HIS point. Thats really all this was.
I can imagine the author thinking - Hay i'm bored so i'm gonna bitch about the most mundain part of a contract I can and see how far I can get with this, then i'll post it to slashdot where everyone hates M$ and Dell enough that it'll get posted and my website will get tons of traffic and i'll become an internet rockstar - look how 1337 I am.
Besides - how many people "borrow" software from firends - install it, yet obviously had to agree to the EULA that came with it that told them specifically not to do that? And i'm not talking about software "piracy" in the sense of warez, i'm talking about how my aunt gets some cheeseball program and then my cousin says - hay that looks cool can I borrow that to install on my system and so she does - neither one knows/realizes they did anythign wrong - but then again - neither one has that thing called "the internet web"
Ave Molech Setting
Fuck Dell and all they are about. We bought a NAS from them (705N) about a year and a half ago. six months out of the gate it stops booting. Powers on but will not come up.
We call them and the guy says. "Well. I've got good news and bad news. We no longer service or make the 705Ns so we will send you a 715N. The bad news is the 715's run windows and the 705's ran Linux. THe drives will not work in the new system."
I asked, "How do we get the data off of the drives then?"
Dell: "I can get you the names of a few data recovery companies that can help you."
I said, "You mean to tell me you have NO spare motherboards around?"
Dell: "No sir, I'm sorry"
I exploded. I expect that if they were recording the call they likely kept it around to listen and laugh at or play at training sessions to get new hires ready for abuse.
The asshole then has the gall to tell me that when we recover the data to send the old hard drives back. We get the new 715N. By the luck of the Irish we find someone with a 705N who lets us use it to get the data transferred to the new 715.
I send the 705 Back with out drives and get a call from Dell. I tell them, "The drives were destroyed by the data recovery place. And we aren't paying for them." I hung up and we never heard from them again..
Karma means nothing to me, so suck it...
XJS*C4JDBQADN1.NSBN3*2IDNEN*GTUBE-STANDARD-ANTI-U
>> ...the only way to challenge it in court is to actually violate it and get sued.
Not necessarily. Odds are Dell, or any other company, isn't going to sue you unless your EULA violation is costing them more than what it would cost them to bring suit.
You, however, can bring suit against the company. There's no need to violate their EULA and then sit around waiting to be caught.
Auto repair shops often post signs telling customers to stay out of the work area, adding that they aren't responsible for accidents. Nice words, but no excuse for the shop's negligence. If you walk through the door to the shop and someone drops an engine block on your head, that little sign isn't going to give the shop much cover from your suit.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
(some things are WORTH the karma burn)
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
Here's a link to a mirror... http://dell.homelinux.org
What would happen if you sent it back for repairs and the tech is the one that agreed to the license agreements? You would have never read them or even seen the screen requiring you to click through.
Actually, no. That's a case of the supreme court deciding not to hear a case. They can decide not to hear a case for any number of reasons. Generally, I don't believe that the Supremes not taking an appeal is sufficient grounds for nationwide precedent and CERTAINLY doesn't constitute a ruling on the case.
Kat and I just received the Dell Inspiron 5100 notebook we ordered from Dell Canada. We quickly ran across problems.
I pushed the power button to turn on computer. I got the Dell POST screen, then a screen from Dell (dell photo)
But there are no license agreements in the box that the computer came in. [There are some shrinkwrapped CD containers, but the "Terms and Conditions of Sale (CANADA)" that came with the invoice says:
"7. Software. All software is provided subject to the license
agreement that is part of the package. Customer agrees that
it will be bound by the license agreement once the package is
opened or its seal is broken. Dell does not warrant any software
under this Agreement. Warranties, if any, for the software are
contained in the license agreement that governs its purchase
and use."
I've never agreed to those Terms and Conditions, to my knowledge, but I assume they think they're enforceable, so I can't open up the shrinkwrap to see if the license agreements are in there, without automatically agreeing to them.]
So I called the only Dell number I could find on my documentation (1-800-847-4096) and spoke to a customer support representative. I told her what was on the screen, and told her I couldn't find the license agreements I'm required to read and agree to before pressing any key.
She put me on hold while she looked into where the license agreements might be, and eventually transferred me to technical support. The tech support agent told me her database was down, so she couldn't look up anything at all (I hadn't even told her what the problem was yet), and I'd have to call back in an hour.
I call back, and speak to a tech support woman. She says: "press Tab." I explain that I can't without saying I've read and agreed to documents I don't have. She says "press page down". Same problem. She says "scroll down". I explain it's not a Windows screen. She says "insert any Dell-shipped CD". I exlpain the problem of opening the CD packaging.
She insists I have to press a key. I ask her if she really means that I have to agree to the licenses before it's at all possible that i've read them. She says "yes". I explain that that's not acceptable, and ask for her supervisor.
Her supervisor insists it's a Customer Care issue, and not tech support, and that there's nothing he can do. He can't explain why they sent me to him. He enters my info into the call log databse, and I go to call back Customer Care.
So back into the hold queue I go.
I'm finally connected to a Customer Care representative. [Pretty much each sentence in the following was interspersed with long, long times on hold.]
She looked up the call log to get the background info. She insists she doesn't have copies of the agreements, and that I'm supposed to go
When we powerup a new Dell system the first thing that we do is press F2, enter BIOS setup, enable network boot (set LAN device to LAN w/PXE), save and exit, hit F12, and boot from network.
On the network is a boot image that formats the disk and automatically installs Windows 2000 and all desired applications.
We never see the EULA screen.
Why would anyone in a medium to large company want to use a pre-installed Windows that has to be manually configured on each box, when an unattended setup procedure is so much more convenient?
It's worse than just staffers, what about programs the company installs by default? Especially when these programs have vulnerabilities, and no auto update feature. This can leave quite a few computers wide open to exploitation.
My roommate's Compaq came preloaded with some support program. I checked on the internet to find out what it was, and it turns out that not only does it give Compaq complete control over his computer, there was an exploit for the thing too, so script kiddies could take over his computer too.
Maybe it's nice for lusers to have this (and he is one) so tech support can fix his computer, but it's a major security risk. What if he had some important and confidential documents/ programs/ whatever on his computer? I wouldn't want my important files messed with or downloaded at by some random punk or even supposedly "trusted" tech support people.
He didn't even know what the program was, so obviously he wasn't going to patch it, and you'd have to assume he knew how to find and apply the patches in the first place. I didn't want to dick around with his computer trying to look for some stupid patch, so I just turned it off.
I suppose it doesn't matter on his computer anyway. When he's asked me to fix his computer, I've found all sorts of trojan programs (like the pr0n dialers and crap) installed on his compter. He's too much of a luser to buy a virus scanner for his Windows 98 computer, so I had to show him Housecall. Though I'm sure it doesn't stop all virii (using this plural form to piss off grammar nazis. Anyway "viruseses" sucks)--it just sits on top of Windows.
I don't think this is the same vulnerablility. I don't feel like searching for it. This was a long time ago, but I think the problem was a default password and the thing left a port wide open to the internet.
What else.
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
You spilled soda on your laptop and dropped it and you're trying to get it fixed on Dell's bill.
I know at least five I8000 owners (including my father, who bought the system on my reccomendation because of the other people I knew who used 8000s) who have had nothing but positive experiences with their systems. My I8200 is a year old now and is still running flawlessly.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
Can any court find those licenses valid when nobody reads them?
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
Someone from Dell asked you to lie about agreeing with the license. You have NO IDEA about the potential of that. All you had to do was record the conversation, 'agree' to the license, and get to Windows screen. Then go back to Linux, package ALL windows files and start distributing them on Kazaa, Morpheus and put them on your webpage. Make sure you redistribute everything under the BSD license.
You are now authorizing everyone on the planet to use Windows in that package. You have real and good proof that you were allowed to GET and USE windows anyway you want without agreeing that you will not copy the software. Heck you could even resell legally downloadable copies of Windows for $5 a copy.
Now say you're screwed and taken to court. To begin with the court knows you never signed anything, never agreed to anything and you're a free man. Now they will have trouble with all the people who obtained Windows under the BSD license. They obtained it quite legally and are redistributing it. How do you void that license?
I'm sure with Windows you also get Norton Antivirus, MS Office and other cool stuff like Winzip, Winamp Real Player and many other things. It would be trivial to repackage the whole thing to be reinstallable on any computer since you had all the CAB files.
Any lawyers on Slashdot care to correct me on this great idea the OP missed?
"Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky
IBM uber alles!!!!!
You can use PayPal if you like.
I just installed a desktop cptr from Dell -- exactly the same situation.
If you aren't given the EULA, how can you be bound to its conditions? Would it be enforcable?
We got a T1 line from Allegiance Telecom last year (it was cheap). It had layers and layers of legal documents (many of them actually signed, not clicked on) that completely contradicted each other. I had to sign them all anyway -- well, at least to get the T1 rolling. This preprinted form was full of misspellings.
Then I went to their web administration site. There I'm presented with a completely different click-through agreement that not only contradicts, again, the paperwork we signed, but it says it superscedes any other agreements (which all the others said, too) AND it gave us a month-to-month contract instead of the yearly agreement in the paperwork. Same misspellings as the paperwork, though.
* It also said that it could be modified at any time, unilaterally (I know, this is occurring more and more everywhere)
* The SLA (service level agreement) was changed by the click-through to a "service level statement", whatever that is, in which they promised to do their best. How nice of them.
* Our "yearly" contract could now have the rate changed, at will, by Allegiance with a 30 day notice.
* BUT, I was now given the power to terminate my yearly contract with no penalty with a 10-day notice.
At this point I backed out of the click-through agreement and began a week-long back and forth with Allegiance's rep and legal dept. Nothing was ever resolved, and I was told to just click on it because the paperwork would, probably, be what mattered.
So, I clicked on an an "Agree" button -- that I most certainly didn't agree with -- that claimed to be the "one and only" agreement and that supersceded all other agreements. But it was said to not matter.
What a joke. At least the T1 has been okay.
$799. I can get a decent laptop with RedHat 9 installed here in California. No windows tax.
People buy Dell and HP et all because it's (A) a status thing. "I got a Dell."(B) A too stupid to know that they can get the same features for way less in a generic laptop.
please see responsible software license Xah Lee
Someone like WHAT exactly?
Someone who behaves differently from 99% of the rest of the population.
Someone who didn't want to agree to a potentially binding legal contract that they had not way to get hold of for review?
Yup.
I don't know about YOU, but smart people don't go about signing contracts they haven't read. Maybe you have an exceptionally high tolerance for signing away your rights to the things you purchased, but normal people don't.
Most people assume that any contract they agree to is going to be generally reasonable. They don't read it. Yes! They're that stupid! You may read them, so do I, but a lot of people will sign anything you hand to them.
Besides, I would hope that if everything he says is true that he wouldn't be dumb enough to deal with such a lousy company anymore anyway, so I guess they can get rid of one of those "troublemakers" who doesn't want to sign unreadable contracts.
Most companies can tolerate the small percentage of people who are willing to forgoe the purchase rather than click okay. I wouldn't bother with the hassle of returning it. I'd simply click okay, knowing full well that they can't legally enforce those terms that I hadn't seen when I agreed to them. Most people do.
If my brother (who is NOT a lawyer) wrote up a crummy contract that required me to lie and which basically made no sense, and I signed it, no court in the world would enforce it. Why should Dell be any different? I can click "OK" on anything I want. It's not my fault if the contract is invalid, and therefore meaningless.
This is one of my major complaints about the GNU Systemlords. They want to force everyone to use thier license for all programs, even ones they didn't write. This is why the GPL was written that way--so anyone linking to a GPLed library has to release their program under the GPL.
This is one of the reasons I'm migrating to FreeBSD. Their system libraries and utilities aren't GNU based. The compiler is GNU's, but oh well, maybe I'll try TenDRA.
You problem wasn't directly from GNU, but I've heard the GNU developers plan to change all their libraries to GPL (instead of LGPL)??? This includes libc. Guess which libc Linux uses? Read their site, it's very "interesting."
Yes, I know it says they decided to use the LGPL for libc, but read the document closely. Whenever it will suit their strategy, they'll change it to GPL. Stallman hates Linux because it stole the thunder from his kernel. Who knows, someday he may very well change GNU libc to GPL just to mess with Linux users.
This is nothing new at all. Dell has been putting that boot sector on the hard drive for years. I don't know why the person had trouble booting from a Linux CD, but it should have worked fine.
Several years ago, I encountered this screen on a brand new "no operating system" Dell server. Since it says to contact them if I did not receive any software, I called the number. I said that I worked for a very picky company and they don't let me agree to anything without the lawyers checking it over. Also that there was no agreement for me to agree to anyway. I was very impressed when I was connected to someone who understood exactly what I was talking about and advised me to boot from a CD or floppy and wipe the hard drive. Yes, it's stupid that they put this even on an otherwise blank hard drive, but sometimes you get someone who knows what they're doing, and sometimes you don't.
this would be a fantastic job for me. particularly the bit about contracts agreed to by an intoxicated person being void...
1. get pissed
2. accept 2000 EULAs per day
3. get paid for it
4. profit!!!
Try signing a check or credit card receipt with that sort of rationale and see how well it goes over. Or even a private IOU, to put a bit of distance between the example and the law.
The REAL jabber has the user id: 13196
What you do today will cost you a day of your life
given the described conditions the assumed contract cannot be enforced as Dell are asking for impossible terms to be agreed with (it occurs to me that having taken your money AND delivered the goods they cannot then enforce any further license restrictions UNLESS you were informed before purchase -- this is the law in the UK and I expect there are similar restructions in the US.)
The authors really should report Dell to their local business standards organisation.
Give 'em hell, 'cus they deserve it for being such prats!
Dell, HP, Gateway, and many others have been shipping malware / spyware with their machines for AT LEAST two years now. Go ahead and run Ad-aware on any stock, freshly factory-installed big name PC and look out! A Compaq 'Internet PC' from about two or three years ago I recently had the displeasure of troubleshooting lately had 199 spy/malware objects! This was immeadiately after running the System Restore disks or whatever garbage Compaq gave you then...
As a law student that just finished taking contracts, i realize that i am no expert, but i do have some background i these issues. (btw i was a CS major undergrad). We did cover the major cases relevant to these "imposed terms."
Cases such as ProCD and Hill v. Gateway establish that companies may impose legally enforcable terms upon customers if they break the shrink wrapped seal or show an objective manifestation of assent to the terms. These cases were decided by Judge Easterbrook, who is an economist, and the rationale behind these decisions is essentially that it is more efficient to impose these terms using "shrink wrap" or "click wrap" than having the company read all the terms out to you before you buy or when you buy the product. This is the majority view.
This does go against the general principles of contracts. Klocek v. Gateway was held the opposite way by another judge. However, this is the minority view.
In the immediate case the customer would have a strong case for the reasons that some of you have mentioned. The company should include the terms and conditions. There is no way of really telling what the terms are unless you can get ahold of them. Also, it is a general rule that if something in a contract is particularly unusual or significant it should be brought to the parties attention by means of writing your initails there or having bold letters etc. It should not be hidden away in the middle of the document.
People do actually take these companies to court. The above cases are good examples, as well as Specht v. Netscape which encompasses the general rules on internet liscensing. Basically it boils down to if you had an objective manifestation of assent or not. The terms do not generally have to be provided.
Thats my basic understanding, by no means use this info as rules, its just my opinion. Please comment on what I said if I am wrong etc.
Well, I bought a cheap digital camera, and in the manual, it had a EULA for the hardware. I doubt it is enforceable anywhere except maybe those states who have passed th UCTIA, but it had some "interesting" clauses in it, including no one outside of my immediate household is allowed to use the camera! So I guess if I went on vacation with this camera, I couldn't ask someone to take a picure of me in front of the Eiffel Tower. The company was Aiptek. Never buy from them, they are obviously shady.
As a law student that just finished taking contracts, i realize that i am no expert, but i do have some background i these issues. (btw i was a CS major undergrad). We did cover the major cases relevant to these "imposed terms."
Cases such as ProCD and Hill v. Gateway establish that companies may impose legally enforcable terms upon customers if they break the shrink wrapped seal or show an objective manifestation of assent to the terms. These cases were decided by Judge Easterbrook, who is an economist, and the rationale behind these decisions is essentially that it is more efficient to impose these terms using "shrink wrap" or "click wrap" than having the company read all the terms out to you before you buy or when you buy the product. This is the majority view.
This does go against the general principles of contracts. Klocek v. Gateway was held the opposite way by another judge. However, this is the minority view.
In the immediate case the customer would have a strong case for the reasons that some of you have mentioned. The company should include the terms and conditions. There is no way of really telling what the terms are unless you can get ahold of them. Also, it is a general rule that if something in a contract is particularly unusual or significant it should be brought to the parties attention by means of writing your initails there or having bold letters etc. It should not be hidden away in the middle of the document.
People do actually take these companies to court. The above cases are good examples, as well as Specht v. Netscape which encompasses the general rules on internet liscensing. Basically it boils down to if you had an objective manifestation of assent or not. The terms do not generally have to be provided.
Thats my basic understanding, by no means use this info as rules, its just my opinion. Please comment on what I said if I am wrong etc.
When I bought my computer from Dell Canada they sent me the American licence agreement. I didn't even notice until 2 years later my monitor burnt out and I called for a replacement.
They sent me a refurbished monitor which in terms of the model was a downgrade of what I originally had! After hours of their customer care department trying to convince me that this is what is implied by the licence agreement I became exhausted and asked them to send me a paper copy of the licence agreement as it was when I first purchased my computer. They couldn't. Apparently Dell doesn't even keep hard copies of their own documentation!
They said that I would be best served to check the licence agreement on the Internet. After calmly explaining to them that the licence agreement is probably not the same one I would have gone over when I first got the computer -- had I seen the licence agreement they are holding me to and that refurbished goods are what can be sent out as replacements (never had a dell component replaced with a refurb before BTW) I would have packed-up my computer and sent it back.
They simply said that in the licence agreement (again a document I never had the privilege of reading) Dell has the right to make any changes to the licence agreement as it sees fit.
I gave up. 3 monitors later they finally sent me the correct model, it was refurbished but at least so far its working.
Mirror #1
Mirror #2
Mirror #3
"Another memorable EULA quote: I'm forbidden to use Visual Studio tools to make any word processing or spreadsheet application, unless it's a small part of a larger application. Unlike Open Source, if a Microsoft-enchained programmer (like me) invents a better mousetrap, they're verboten to release it."
Does it really say you can't do that? That's insane. I don't see how that would be legally enforceable. If anyone needed any proof that MS should have been broken into little pieces, there you go.
That fact that any developer would buy any software which limits exactly what they could create with it is pretty surprising. Imagine if art stores used EULA's with their paint brushes?
I'd really like to see that particular EULA. Next time I hear some dev crowing about VS I'll have to ask them if there sure their products are in compliance. Pathetic.
If you wanna get rich, you know that payback is a bitch
There is a specific section of the civil code here in California that says if you print such-and-such language on the stub, at least this point size, yadda, yadda, yadda, then you're not liable. It's specific to parking lots.
I suspect that it's the same in other states.
Something to keep in mind is that the authors tried to find satisfaction with Dell Canada. Dell Canada is completely sales-focused, and as a result does not make policy, does not influence policy, and does not even contain employees who are empowered to do anything other than obey orders from head office.
Yes, but then you have to find an EULA that contains a clause that causes harm to you. You'll also have to argue that the EULA as an entirety holds no legal merit, which is a lot shakier case than merely arguing that the clause in the EULA is invalid.
Again, you're back into needing several hundred thousand dollars to fight this one. The company you take suit against will probably simply offer to settle, which you'll have to decline since you're wanting to argue this one on ethics, not on actual damages. At that point they'll start using delaying tatics to eat up your money first. It's certainly winnable, but you'll have to pick your target carefully -- you need a software company with a EULA with a damaging clause (and while the liability disclaimers count here, I think they're also the worst chance for success), with borderline profits (positive side; if they're unprofitable they'll just declare bankruptcy and the suit will be dismissed), and which is in a jurisdiction that has favorable laws and judges for your case. It's not impossible, but it is damned difficult.
I do, however, stand corrected on who has to bring suit against who. You're right on that, it's just the particulars of what has to occur that's still a problem. You can't sue the mechanic just because they have the sign -- you have to actually be injured first (and even then if the mechanic can show no lack of negligence on their part, including reasonable precautions against you accessing the garage, you'd be SOL -- not that many mechanics would actually do so. An open garage door would invalidate their defense).
...and Windows XP Home Edition didn't see the light of day.
A KNOPPIX CD was in the laptop on its first boot, the BIOS was set to boot the CD-ROM directly. The first thing KNOPPIX was used to do was write zeroes over the entire hard disk. Then Linux was installed.
The EULA happens to be on one of the included CD-ROMs. It says if we don't agree to the Windows XP Home Edition license, Microsoft owes us money by way of Dell.
Dell refuses to honor this agreement.
Some shit is going to go down.
And no, there was no paper EULA provided.
I hate dealing with literal minded people, but honestly, it's probably a better world because they are out there. Just don't put me in the same room with one.
man....im having problems
of the CRAPULTER. check it at CounterExploitation
how long until
So how am I bypassing a technological measure controlling access to a work? The key issue here is that I'm not actually accessing the work. I'm trying my best NOT to access the work in question -- Windows and the other installed software. I don't WANT access to the work.
By the letter of the law, the original article -- the people who bypassed the startup script and launched Dell's preinstalled software -- have in fact violated this provision.
I never accessed the work, so I didn't circumvent the measure.
I can just hear the Dell people's frustration at this guy.
"Geez, it's just a simple 'I agree' button. Just click on the damn thing. Why are you so up in arms about it?"
"If it's not such a big deal why the hell did you put it there? I mean, you went through the effort, didn't you? It obviously serves some purpose. Telling me that it doesn't mean anything, and that I should just suck it up and click away, sort of undermines your position doesn't it?"
I get this from time to time on shit that someone wants me to initial or sign. I refuse, and they ask why I am making such a big deal, it doesn't mean ANYTHING. Well then why do you want my signature? Hmmmm?
It's just form over substance, and it erodes civil rights. It makes legal enforcement subjective. Say for example, everybody is expected to sign or click or whatever, leaving any company or law enforcement body to apply the law when and where they see fit, because "everybody's guilty."
In court they can produce the "proof" and ask, "Is this your signature?"
"Well, yes, but I didn't read the agreement."
"Why not?"
"I didn't have it."
"Why did you agree to something you didn't read?"
Say it couldn't happen, I dare you.
Toddlers are the stormtroopers of the Lord of Entropy.
You are free to take the latest version of MySQL that was avilable under the license you prefer, and fork it, maintain it, apply bug fixes, develop new features, or hire someone to do all of these things. They cannot prevent you from doing this. You aren't locked in at all. If you want to use the new features they release under their new license, well, you have to abide by their license.
What they have done is to say that all of the new features and versions are now under the GPL. It is their code, why can't they do that? I fail to see where the lockin is. They aren't revoking any rights you had previously, as you show with point number 3). You are just mad that they aren't providing you with new features for free, the way that they used to. Well, too bad.
>>and intoxicated persons are usually not held to the contracts they enter
Easy... just get drunk before you click "I agree", and you're golden!
q:]
MadCow.
I used to have a sig, but I set it free and it never came back.
I would have to confirm this the next time I setup a new Dell computer, but I am pretty sure that if you upgrade a Dell computer's memory before turning it on initially.. the system will prompt [the amount of system memory has changed, press F1 to continue and F2 to enter Setup] before the EULA screen ever appears.
After that I press F2 and fix the boot order so that the CDROM goes before the hard drive. Then I put in my image CD in and restart the computer.. the image software is configured so that it removes all partitions and installs the image into the full hard drive space. I don't believe that I have ever seen a EULA screen doing this to desktops and laptops. Because Dell charges so much for memory, I usually buy Dell systems with the least amount of memory they will sell and then buy the rest online from other vendors.
Funny article though, I have clicked through the EULA many times after getting new Dell systems and never given a single thought to it. I am glad that someone decided to actually call and share the story.
Word up about UCITA.
However, I don't believe you can accurately say contracts of adhesion are not enforceable.
Check Todd D. Rakoff on adhesion in 96 Harv. L. Rev. 1173, 1185 (1983): "in the absence of extraordinary circumstances, the adherent can establish an excuse only by showing affirmative participation by the drafting party in causing misunderstanding."
The restatement (2d) of contracts contains similar language tending to vitiate consent in cases of deceit.
You can say many things about OEM distributors, but I doubt you could prove intentional misrepresentation.
Now, not allowing one "contractor" to even view the EULA in the first place... that goes straight to procedural unconscionability, of which adhesion could be considered a subcategory. A good lawyer before a sympathetic judge - in a sympathetic jurisdiction - might have a shot.
But generally, contracts of adhesion (as which EULAs qualify) generally are enforced.
Disclaimer: IANAL. The above does not constitute legal advice.
I sort of agree.
It would probably have been more effective for him to have written a letter of complaint to the company. Letters are usually read by someone since people who have time to write often have something worth saying.
Damn son, next time I get moderator points I'm saving one for anything you wrote that isn't already at 5.
If you want a refund, becareful.
P.S., this is a sweet machine. Runs cool and quiet -- has a 1600x1200 15" LCD, 3.06 GHz Pentium 4M. I got it with 256 MB RAM (the lowest amount you can order) and promptly went to Fry's to get my two 512MB chips for $99 a piece. Dell's markup on RAM is incredible -- but they need to make the margin somewhere (just not from me).
Oh, here's a tip -- common web page elements are completely munged by the default 120 DPI settings on fonts. Do yourself a favor and change to 96 DPI -- the resolution is great, but the size is tiny. If you can't read that small, get a 1072x768 monitor instead. 1600x1200 is very nice.
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
IANAL, but...
Decisions of the Seventh Circuit (which sits in Chicago) are binding on courts in Illinois and Indiana as well as in Wisconsin. Because the 7th is the highest federal court so far to speak on this issue, its decision forms (very) compelling persuasive authority for the entire country.
Basically, you're right. The ProCD case looks bad for future tests, unless the Supreme Court steps up. Or fool-ass paid-for laws make challenging the OEMs pointless anyway.
Moral: Buy Apple.
AAARRRRGGGGG (millions of stones falling from sky)
Dude, I'm dead.
rm -Rf ./Pro_Piracy_Guy
To comply with the terms and conditions of the software license agreements, you must consider any CD or diskette set of Dell-installed software as BACKUP copies of the software installed on your computer's hard-disk drive.
I may just be getting confused here, and IANAL and stuff, but doesn't that seem to be saying that you have, in effect, agreed that the cd set of the software is your one copyright-law allowed backup? (Not that anyone'd want to pirate this stuff generally, but it raises the point of "how will these sneaky beggars try and get around the law this week?" )
"How fine you look when dressed in rage."
As I understand it, Dell makes it impossible to use its product without signing an agreement that no reasonable person would sign without reading, and indeed they demand that one read the agreement. Yet it is not possible to read the agreements since they are not provided. This amounts to knowingly and willfully selling a product that they know cannot be used for its intended purpose. IANAL, but isn't that the definition of commercial fraud? Perhaps a lawyer could explain why the appropriate response is not to file a criminal complaint with the attorney general?
In the past, I have circumvented "I agree" click through agreements by using technical means. What legal challenges, if any, would a person face if they decided to set up a site that contained methods or programs designed to avoid agreeing to a eula? Would this be a DMCA violation?
-
I'm finally connected to a Customer Care representative. [Pretty much each sentence in the following was interspersed with long, long times on hold.]
I can imagine that all these smart people could probably find out something about mister burley, since people have been finding out things about government officials. Heck he probably even has an account on MSNShe looked up the call log to get the background info. She insists she doesn't have copies of the agreements, and that I'm supposed to go online and look them up myself. (?!) She says to use a public computer if I have to. I ask how to know what companies have software on my disk. She goes away for a bit, and says she doesn't have that information, and there's nothing they can do. [And there's no supervisor available.] She asks why I don't want to agree to the license. I explain I haven't *seen* it. She says "it just says you won't copyright any of the files". I ignore the mistake, and explain that licensing agreements are long, long documents that say much more than that, and that anyway, the screen says that I have to have *read* it.
Eventually she does manage to connect me to Alan Burley (Manager, Customer Service).
He said he installs things all the time without reading the license agreements. He says I should just do that. I ask if he's really telling me to lie and to agree to legal documents I haven't seen. He says I don't have to, but the only thing he can do is take the computer back. He says that it's the first time this issue has escalated. He does manage to tell me what software is on the system, and says I need to go to those companies' websites to get their agreements. [Never mind that I need the OEM version and that's unlikely to be there.] I ask _him_ what if this was my first computer. He said I would have to go to a library or a friend's house. He really couldn't send me the agreements that Dell insists I read and agree to before using the computer.
He said he couldn't give me his phone number or mailing address, and that he didn't have a boss who could talk to me.
So we've got nothing left to do but send it back. He says he'll send waybills, and will refund the cost of the computer, including the original shipping charge, and won't charge a restocking fee. We will have to pay for the shipping back to the Oakville depot. I figured we could just run it by there ourselves (it's not too far), but he said that that's not possible. (I don't understand why. We'll probably try, anyway.)
It's crazy that it came to this. If they had said *anything* reasonable, we would have been happy to just install Linux on the thing and be done with it. But they were saying that anyone who uses a Dell laptop (with this startup screen) *has* to just lie about having read the licenses, and just blindly agree to them. That's unacceptable enough that it's going back.
Maybe the proper person to speak to is Michael Dell
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
I never really thought Dell's customer service was that great but this sounds like something straight out of Office Space!
So true, I used to recommend Dell to my clients but not any more. The last batch of opterons I installed had crippleware installed that actually started to crash, badly, when the users tried to open .jpg files (this was the default build straight from Dell). And then there's the aol crap. It's like getting commercials when you go to the movies, I BOUGHT this computer, paid a premium b/c it's Dell, and I expect it to come without ADs like it's an EMACHINE or something.
And the default install of MS Office is horrible. And the wireless takes over 1 minute after login is complete to connect to a 64 bit encrypted network (still can't figure that one out). And...
Dell is SO FIRED.
closed minded is as closed minded does
PITA = Pain In The Ass
FIDA = Fucked In Da Ass?
RIATA = Rodent Inserted And Turned Around?
CONSTANTLY = Citizen Of Norway Shoved Through Ass, Never To Leave You?
ah, nothing like some stupid ass jokes...
c-hack.com |
they just wouldnt open the envelope.
What if I'm blind? Is there a screen reader built in to this EULA? Maybe I'm "blindly" pressing keys till I can hit a key combination that I know turns on the Microsoft Narrator.
Further, what if I let my 7 year old son have "the honors" of booting up the computer? Just because he pressed a key when he was told to, doesn't mean that I'm legally obligated by the agreement. I haven't agreed to anything.
Further, what if I set this system up for my elderly grandparents. It doesn't belong to me, how can I be the one who agrees to it? Anyone who wanted to dodge this could *easily* claim that they never saw this screen, but that they had a friend or child set it up for them.
Slay a dragon... over lunch!
Anyone thought yet that this is a way for Dell to side step the "Windows Rebate". By hitting ANY key at all you are agreeing to all the licenses inside.
Well the license with the Windows rebate clause would then be agreed to without even SEEING it.
Nice Dell... screw me out of an even cheaper machine by trying to trick me out of my rebate.
Shame Shame Shame....
Telcos have alot of dark fibre in the States. Most people assume that's optical fibre...but it's actually moral fibre.
Go to your local software store and pickup a M$ product. It says right on the outside of the box, "By opening this product, you agree to the Terms and Conditions INSIDE"!!! Figure that out.
But, it says if you don't agree to those terms, you must return the product.
Ok, so go to the front counter and ask if you can return software. Survey Says!!! NO!!
Well, suck me sideways. The worst that can happen is you lose a little cash.
Dell is a good company. I've never had a problem dealing witht their tech support or solving problems with broken system, and I never read the TOS.
This once again proves that us custom computer builders are not entirely insane...
Kamran A
Here's the one that I like. First paragraph:
... Microsoft reserves the right to update the TOU at any time without notice to you. ...
ACCEPTANCE OF TERMS.
Is it just me, or does this say that the license you agreed to can be changed to anything, and no one has to notify you. But, oh! by the way, you agreed to the changes too so now anything they want to say you agreed to is in fact what you agreed to. As my lawyer says, that's a major "Fuck-U" paragraph.
I suspect that it will get to the point, since everyone else is doing this also, that it won't matter when the terms were changed. It will be assumed that the current agreement was always in force since you agreed to whatever future changes might be made. You always loose in any disagreement with the company, because you agreed to always agree.
buy Dells.
I just purchased a Presario laptop at BestBuy. I wanted to have it checked for bad pixels, DOA hardware, etc., so the tech there opened the box and ran a few tests before releasing the machine to me.
So, a BestBuy representative did the initial clicking and agreeing and I have no need to ever open the enclosed shrink wrap agreements. Am I free of all of them? I think I might be!
Wierd but at the same time HILARIOUS. Reminescent of the Phone Losers of America prank call recordings. It would have been fun to listen to.
Visit msdn.microsoft.com and click on "Terms of Use".
I'd paste some of the Terms of Use, but then I'd be violating the third paragraph. Actually, taking the fascistic bent (hey, when has Microsoft ever been a stickler on the terms?) you can't write a program based on the information presented there, since it'd be a derivative work of the information presented there (again, third paragraph).
You don't have to click on anything or even read those in order to view the MSDN documentation online, so all they have to fall back on is standard copyright law. Since it would be copyright infringement to distribute the information on their website, they're only being informative in pointing that out to you.
I agree EULAs and Terms & Conditions are often evil things, but I don't see anything wrong with these conditions. It's hardly a breach of copyright to write a program based on information you learnt elsewhere, and Microsoft aren't trying to suggest otherwise.
What's really troubling about all this is that Dell is selling you a system, collecting your money, and then trying to change the terms of the deal after the deal has been closed. They are not telling you about the restrictions in the licence terms before you pay your money and commit to the deal. You open the box and you find that Dell intended to give you less than they told you about, up front.
THIS IS FRAUD!
No honorable person can do this to his customers. How can we escape the conclusion that there are no honorable people in charge at Dell? I don't understand why we, as a culture, don't treat these dishonorable people like the criminals that they are.
Adrian
At the end of the day, go and buy a bunch of Dells and decide not to accept the EULA - thus returning the product and getting a full refund.
You may loose a bit of interest on your money, but done in a big enough protest, it would show Dell the mistakes they are potentially making.
At the end of the day, an unreasonable EULA should result in nobody buying the product...
vote with your feet - we are the 'consumers' after all!
If only this was true!
Canadians with phat credit cards should order tricked out Dells then run through the same customer "service" routine and return the machines. Get laptops 'cause they'll be cheaper to return (and they're more expensive!). Each person will be out $15-20 for return shipping but Dell will lose a fortune. Maybe they'll lose enough money to straighten out this EULA mess.
Is a mouseclick a authorative legal proof of signing an EULA ? Like one signs a contract with a signature?
And shouldn't have Microsoft received a fax-ed or snail-mailed copy of the EULA contract with your signature in blue Ink, before they are legally allowed to play around with their customers ?
Robert
From the FA, which you didn't R:
"After all this, we *did* try to boot off a Linux install CD. That just took us to the same screen as before."
There are no trolls. There are no trees out here.
Actually, taking the fascistic bent (hey, when has Microsoft ever been a stickler on the terms?) you can't write a program based on the information presented there, since it'd be a derivative work of the information presented there (again, third paragraph).
As stated earlier terms of use are probalbly invalid, but even if the court deems it valid there are two things you can use. One thing is that anti-trust laws do not allow anti-competitive clauses in contracts; This clause if interpreted that way will not allow anyone to write competing programs for windows. Another thing is that in the case of an ambiguity in a contract of adhesion(a take it or leave it offer), the courts almost always side with the defendant
"We have got to make Stan understand the importance of voting, because he'll definitely vote for our guy." - South Park
Decisions of the Seventh Circuit (which sits in Chicago) are binding on courts in Illinois and Indiana as well as in Wisconsin
Yes, but the court specifically refered to Wisconsin laws. Certainly the court is now biased toward its prior ruling (as will be courts in Illinois and Indiana, referring to the higher court's ruling), but if there's a substantive difference in state law on the points referenced in Wisconsin law the outcome might be different. I'd be bloody amazed, but stranger things have happened.
went like this (and no, this is 99% accurate, and not a joke):
"Thank you for calling Dell customer support center, my name is Billy, how may I help you?" (In an obviously Indian voice... Billy.... right.....)
"Hi, uh, 'Bobby' is it?" : "Yes, Bobby, how may I help you?" : "Yeah, is your name really Billy?" : "No sir, my name is Bobby?" : "But you said it was Billy?" : "Yes sir, my name is Billy, how may I help you?" : "Where are you located, Bobby?" : "I can't tell you that, sir" : "You're in Bangalore, aren't you" : "uhh, no, I'm in Ohio" : "Where in Ohio, are you in the Chicago call center?" : "yes sir, that's right, I'm in Chicago" : "Chicago is in Illinois, not Ohio. Let's try this again, you're in Bangalore, aren't you?" : "uhhh, yes, sir. What can I do for you today?" : "I want to talk to someone in the U.S." : "I'm sorry sir, I can't do that" : "I'm waiting...." : (silence) : me: "Hello?" : "Yes, sir, this is Bobby, how may I help you?" : (frustrated) "Look, Billy, Bobby, or whatever the hell your name is, I refuse to support global outsourcing. Either you tell me how to get to someone in the U.S., or hang up the phone" : "I'm sorry, sir, I can't do that" : "What, get me to a U.S. Citizen or hang up the phone?" : "I can't do either of those" : (silence) : "Well, that's fine, I have all night" : "Please sir, can you tell me how I can help you?" : "I've already told you how I expect you to help me" : "Please hold" : (silence - about 5 minutes worth) : "Hi, sir, this is Billy again, I have my supervisor on the line" : "Is your supervisor in the United States?" : "uhh, no" : "Wait a moment please, sir, he's telling me something" : "What is he telling you?" : "If you want to reach someone in the U.S., you have to change the first two digits of your case number to five-zero when you punch it in"
(click)
Slashdot is a royal pain in the ass... you guys have this message filter thing pretty fucked up. I don't need some lame-ass perl script kiddie telling me how many characters I have to have on a line... it's pretty fucking insulting... cut it out
Okay, at first I might have been okay with the idea of buying a Dell, but now I won't ever buy a Dell. I believe that custom built machines are better anyway.
GJC
Gregory Casamento
## Chief Maintainer for GNUstep
It's not always that simple. I purchased a Compaq (ok, stop laughing) and compaq will not release video drivers for anything except xp (which i refuse to run). It's an ordinary radeon mobility but for some reason no drivers except the xp drivers will allow it to run in anything except 640x480, not even the 'doze2k drivers work. ATI sez they can't release drivers for it. Compaq wouldn't take it back because, they said, it stated plainly on the box "designed for xp" or some lame crap like that. This evidently means "windoze xp-only appliance". I have sworn off dell/compaq/hp laptops until they change this policy of forcing a particular OS.
I got a good laugh out of it with the crew at work when we saw it. We just went into bios and set it to boot from cdrom and installed RH9. Worked like a charm. Interesting thing is: Much of the software did NOT come shrink wrapped.
Its all nonsense anyway. You could be blind, drunk, underage, senile and still hit a key.
Whats galling is having to PAY for the stuff. Even in a small way. They shouldnt charge me for it. And those companies should not be able to count me as customers. And then they send to BSA and other lobbys to find other ways to MAKE me pay for something I dont want and will never use.
I work in a law firm that represents very big clients (think biggest software company, tobacco, nuclear, automotive etc..) and there interests with the government.
All of our interns and lawyers are top in their respective classes at major law schools. I often wondered where the non top people went. Now I know, they go to software companies to write EULA's. I knew there had to be more for them then the back page of the phone book offering to represent auto accident injury victims.
That's 5 hours he could have used for spending time with his family, having fun, or doing something truly productive Personally, I don't have any time to waste Yeah, he doesn't have time for the trival, duplicate stories run by other news sources. He gets it straight from the horses mouth...
copyright holder cannot impose any limitiations
the want. The copyright law states *some* limitations
that restrict the clauses imposed by copyright
holders on licensees. For instance, the user
is allowed to make one backup copy regardless
of the license says.
If you recall, SCO is saying that some provisions
of the GPL are contrary to copyright law: that is,
the GPL cannot impose such restrictions on
the user. (SCO argument, of course, is another
smoke of crack, because the GPL does not
impose many restrictions. It is the opposite,
the GPL *grants* you rights that you normally
would not have.)
There was a similar case just recently where someone wanted to do something that they thought might be illegal, but the judge dismissed it because it hadn't happened yet... can't remember it, but I'm sure it's under yro.
Copyrights, Patents, Trademarks: temporary loans from the Public Domain, not real property ("intellectual" or otherwise)
Admittedly everyone here is just going ahead and installing Linux but here is an thought.
Call Dell as directed by the instructions to tell them "I got a laptop from you it asked me to call if I didn't agree with the included software liccens agreements. I don't. I'm installing Linux. What do you want me to do with the software I won't be using?"
If they get enough of this they'll eather consider shipping Linux preinstalled or get a call from Microsoft asking them to remove the screen.
I don't actually exist.
As someone who has designed and implemented systems, it is realy aggrevating to find out a year later, that the system does not work right because the users of the system just hacked around the flaws. That leads to a situation were there is no system.
And what was that comment about "bucking the system". "Oh, I'm a real man because I buck the 'system'." Get a life. Bucking the system solves nothing at all. It just makes you a dick.
Pathetic dumb asshole with too much time on hand (time enough to read agreement, call support, hassle people, and finally give up, and finally use laptop, I think - I gave up before getting there) writes /. and gets the hornet's nest of shut-ins going.
Ooooooooh! I'm afraid. So are Dell, MS, etc., I'm sure.
Here's the deal: If you don't want to use MS, Linux is ready when you are. All else is puerile posturing.
668: Neighbour of the Beast
I'm sure the store that sold it to you will be happy to abide by the agreement that they didn't enter into. The EULA claims that the store is required to take back the software if you don't agree to the terms, but stores are not required to agree to accept returns on software that they sell. In fact, many don't on the simple and totally reasonable premise that such a policy would encourage massive amounts of piracy (as Electronics Boutique found out).
So such arrangements really are an agreement between 3 parties, the one who wrote the terms of the agreement, the one who received the agreement as an addendum to a routine point of sale, and the party who sold the software and who has never actually seen the terms of the agreement.
Of course there are many other issues, such as balance of power, which effect copyright law, but I just wanted to point out that the illegality of click-through agreements on commercial software becomes blatant when in practice the consumer has no right to return the software.
The ______ Agenda
Read them. You are allowed to have only ONE copy of their drivers. You have more than one computer with an nvidia chipset, you install drivers on each one, you have violated their EULA.
I've emailed them about this. They ignored me.
Dude, they're Dell. Who wants to buy a computer from a company who's motto is 'we slap shit together so cheaply so you don't have to pay 'real' prices'
Sorry but I have *never* been a fan of Dell. There are white box companies out there with more scruples with them. I keep hoping they'll implode Enron style after seeing the way they do large scale deals in businesses some days. You can't tell me that Intel sells them a Xeon MP Processor with 2MB of cache for $180 yet they'll undercut/give away stuff so quickly to win the business it ain't funny.
So am I sad to see yet another laptop go back to Dell? Hell no. Did I post my original as a troll? hell no, but it got modded that way too. Can't say I'm surprised.
personally, if I wanted a linux laptop, I'd buy an Apple iBook and put Gentoo on it.
As a rock-in-roll Physicist once said, No matter where you go, there you are.
I suspect that it will get to the point, since everyone else is doing this also, that it won't matter when the terms were changed. It will be assumed that the current agreement was always in force since you agreed to whatever future changes might be made.
Oceania is at war with EastAsia. Oceania has always been at war with EastAsia....
Couldn't resist. Not a grammar nazi, but its incorrect to assume "Viruses" would be the suggestion, that's wrong too. The plural of Virus is Virus. There is no word Virii in english, latin, greek, or any other language (maybe Klingon.
Don't you mean the 8200 or 8500? 8300 never existed.
Yes, you can nuke that 30M partition. I did and the machine works beautifully.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
Moral: Buy Apple.
What kind of kool-aid are you drinking? Apple is no different than any of the other of them.
Your "moral" has jack shit to do with everything else you said.
I swear, I own more Macs than most people, and I've worked for Apple, but I never had my brain replaced with a tiny chip that echos "Apple good, Steve good" over and over.
Apple used to have the best interface, but they threw it in the trash. They never gave a rats ass about customers. And apropos the discussion at hand, they have as much anti-user lawyer speak as anyone.
Here is a small, boring, sample:
Damn fanboys.