Slashdot Mirror
Xbox Auto-Update Blocks Linux Usage
An anonymous reader writes "According to The Inquirer, Microsoft has used their Xbox Live Vole System to patch any Xboxes that access it....without asking their permission before installing the software. However, in this occurrence, the bug appears to be the 'dashboard bug' that allows Linux to be easily installed on an Xbox. Further, according to The Xbox Linux Project, users who do not have an Xbox Live account may find themselves being patched without permission as well. If a gamer tries to access any part of a game that uses Xbox Live, the console can 'phone home' and install the patches anyway. While patching bugs can be a nice touch to poor software, I don't know if I feel comfortable with ANYONE installing software on my hardware without asking permission first."
Don't buy an X-BOX!
Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate. Ex-O'Reilly/MIT employee, now a full-time Google employee.
While patching bugs can be a nice touch to poor software, I don't know if I feel comfortable with ANYONE installing software on my hardware without asking permission first
It's not your hardware buddy.
Simple, eh?
I'm the guy with the unpopular opinion
Does this fix help the casual , hardcore, l33t,or noob players?
If you bought an Xbox to run Linux, you'd have no reason to install Xbox-Live. If you bought an Xbox to run games, it's unlikely that you'd want to run Linux on it. After all, you can find better X86 hardware cheaper at Fry's Electronics, or your local bargain store.
I know there's a camp that uses it for both, and it's rather large. However, you should probably consider just buying another computer for that sort of thing.
Overall, I would say that such a willing loss of control, freedom, and some can even argue morals, is good for the home desktop/console market at large (though it is alarming to realize that software console could be so badly written that it would demand security updates). For the corporate setting, such a sacrifice is unacceptable and even hazardous - as the article mentions.
The underlying sentiment of the article, the editors here, and a large population of Slashdot is that "Microsoft is behaving badly - Linux is good". I agree with this sentiment and philosophy, but only to a certain degree. Microsoft Windows is an extremely well established desktop operating system with very mature gaming technologies. For this reason, I feel that it should remain the home desktop choice. As a server operating system or workstation operating system, I feel that it costs companies too much, is too closed, is too insecure, is not flexible enough, and most importantly, is not powerful enough. The entire business ethic and development model of Microsoft is so painfully harmful to large businesses that it's laughable.
Bottom line: If you willingly use a Microsoft product, don't be suprised when they bend you over: they have been doing to everyone for years. Linux should prevail on your servers and workstations, Windows should prevail at home, for basic common sense reason and moral justifications.
Anyone, or Microsoft? If it was Linux Live, would you mind as much?
I wouldn't be suprised if Microsoft decides to start putting these patches on the game discs themselves. The first time you load the game, it patches your system. Of course, me writing this could very well give them that idea.
Totally serious question...does the XBox come with any kind of EULA? Like a seal over the power button saying you agree or an included pamphlet?
If not...then wouldn't this be unauthorized access to a computing device, which was made a federal crime I thought in the last round of Justice Department power grabbing?
We all know about the quasi-legal nature of software granting itself the right to phone home or take action against your system, but that relies on the arguement the user accepted the EULA to use the software. What about hardware?
The last console I owned was a Super Nintendo so I just don't know, do modern consoles have EULAs?
- JoeShmoe
.
-- I wonder which will go down in history as the bigger failure: the War on Drugs or the War on Filesharing
But then again, what the hell did you expect when it said "Microsoft" on the box?
Damn...too bad their desktop OS's aren't as concerned about security. I guess they don't have a bad business model there, just bad practices so they don't need to circle the wagons as tight.
Since Microsoft owns the hardware, they can also install a patch that makes it completely unusable, right? Hell, when you bought it, they didn't make a guarantee that they wouldn't INTENTIONALLY prevent it from functioning a month later.
We are Microsoft, resistance is futile, you will be assimiliated. Your uniqueness will be add to our own... lol
"...Xbox Live Vole System..."
:)
Definition of 'Vole':
(1) any of numerous small rodents of the genus Microtus and related genera, mostly of Eurasia and North America and having a stocky body, short tail, and inconspicuous ears: family Cricetidae.
(2)(in some card games, such as ecarte) the taking of all the tricks in a deal, thus scoring extra points.
I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions
Hosing a customer that blatently is a good way to force yourself to travel by bullet proof limo forever after.
Take away the customer's legal recourse, and they'll find another way to justice.
"Oh my God. This is terrible. This is the end of my Presidency. I'm fucked."; ~ Donald J. Trump
Don't buy a console system, because they will all inevitably lead in this direction. The entire point of producing a console system is to have complete dominance over what software can run on it anyway.
It's not that I am slamming the X-Box platform, or Microsoft for their evil tactics, I just don't think that's fair. That could compare with Microsoft not allowing me to use Logitech input devices in Windows.
By the way, there was an article on Slashdot awhile back about Gentoo on the PS2. (Slashdot Article)
Insert witty Slashdot sig here.
Get a real computer! Seriously.. X-Box is a game machine and you accepted an agreement to update the software in it by just using it.
Obviously, the next step is for Microsoft to start throwing the patches on the game disks -- watch for an 'update firmware' message the first time you boot the game.
"Lawyers are for sucks."
- Doug McKenzie
...it's like a truck. I can put 70" tires on it and turn it into a monster truck without anyone stopping me. But when I put it on the government's network (the highway), they can enforce their laws on my truck (i.e. you can't drive around in something that can crush every car on the road)...
If you mod your x-box...fine. If some MS goons break into your house and restore your x-box to the factory default, you have something to complain about. If you expect to play on MS's network with your modded x-box without any consequences, you're a fucking moron.
Further, according to The Xbox Linux Project, users who do not have an Xbox Live account may find themselves being patched without permission as well. If a gamer tries to access any part of a game that uses Xbox Live, the console can 'phone home' and install the patches anyway.
If someone didn't have an XBOX Live account, why the HELL would they have an ethernet cable jacked into their box with a connection to the outside world?
Remember when you bought the Xbox, how you agreed to that contract? You know, the contract that you couldn't read because by buying it and/or opening the box you agreed to it's terms, but it was in the manual that was inside the box? Well, that gives them the right to screw with your Xbox as much as they want.
I hope someone under 18 who bought an Xbox sues.
I am a filthy pirate.
99.9% of the customers don't attempt to run Linux, would not notice any change and would not consider this a problem even if they knew it. And that 0.1% who would like to run Linux ... are they really customers?
MSDOS: 20+ years without remote hole in the default install
...EULAs of this Xbox sort are illegal. Maybe we'll be seeing some court action in the coming weeks? It's my understanding that companies can't write these kind of intrusive clauses into their EULAs and then expect to get away with them in the EU. And with EU recently pounding Microsoft's ass, I wonder if this will be another thing to add onto their list...
Maybe i'm way off but there have been cheaters on the Xbox Live service right?
If this does anything to stop cheaters (if only a simple deterrent to force them into a chip mod if they really want to) then i'm all for it.
And by automatically installing updates they ARE hosing customers. They get lucky only because they're probably hosing too few to launch an attack worthy of a bullet proof limo.
For doing the same with there Windows OS.
Microsoft Knows no matter how many times they say patch or else. Millions of people wait for the or else to happen, and it makes them look bad.
This is just the same has forced childhood immunization for better public heath. You don't have to immunize every machine, just enough so the probability of the next machine in the series being vulnerable is near zero.
please post as your login so i can add u to my friends list
If you agree to access xbox live content, then they have the right to ensure all players have even ground. After all, if people can hack the dashboard, what is to keep them from giving themselves unfair advantages in games?
They even stated several months ago that they would be doing this over xbox live, I don't know why people are so surprised.
The xbox is not a home computer, it is a video game device. It was not meant to be used as a home computer. Microsoft gives people no rights to modify it and use it as a linux box. Getting past the aspects of the xbox that blocks linux use is of a questionable legality (with the DMCA) anyway.
Microsoft loses money on each xbox sale, and they are not meant to be used as a home PC. So basically, quit whining, and buy a real computer if you want to run linux.
GoatPigSheep, the 3 most important food groups
The original poster claimed it was fine if the manufacturer updated the machine automatically in order to fix flaws. There are several problems with this, most notably that the manufacturer has more power over the computer than you have. If I want a machine where someone else administrates, then I can login to a variety of networks where I am not the administrator. However, on my own machine(s), I like (no, need) the feeling of power. I can choose to patch or modify my system in whatever way I wish, and nobody can stop me. Quite simply, nobody should buy anything, hardware or software, that has an auto-update feature that cannot be turned off and still claim that they are competent enough to use a computer without supervision.
A modded xbox could just as easily be modded in order to facilitate cheating on their network...
MS has every right to protect their networks from cheating gamers.
GoatPigSheep, the 3 most important food groups
After M$ just went out and said how they'd love to just patch any computer they want so the user "doesn't have to", does this really surprise anyone? I think this is just the test to see if people are outraged or not before they implement this full-scale in windows. Frankly, after personally witnessing M$ break a perfectly good and stable computer with windows update (I installed the latest IE patch on my win xp computer at work and it broke my IIS development server running on my machine - yes, sorry I code in asp and C#, I gotta pay the bills), I don't want them installing their garbage on my computer, good or bad.
today is spelling optional day.
I'm sure somewhere in the eula it states they have the right to update the software.
Yay me!
Instead of the usual, it's now "It's a bug, not a feature"
EvilCON - Made Famous by
I am a PC gamer and have recentaly converted to Linux. I am enjoying ET RTCW Q3A Q3TA UT and UT2K3 in Linux. I also like the faster FPS, the increase stability and superior memory management. So I must disagree with you on your statement that Windows is the beter PC gameing platform.
END OF LINE
It's been known for ALMOST A YEAR that fucking with your Xbox and Xbox Live are INCOMPATIBLE.
READ THIS
Expect trying to connect to Xbox Live with a modified machine to GET YOUR MACHINE BANNED FROM XBOX LIVE FOREVER. It's an APPLIANCE. Plug it in and play some games. Try to mess with it and use it in ways not mentioned in the operating instructions - and why are you suprised when it stops working or does something unexpected.
It's no different from Sony Online Entertainment's Everquest or Planetside automatically patching the game when you connect to their servers. And you pay a monthly fee there too.
Microsoft has every right to stop modified machines connecting to Xbox Live - not least of which is to stop cheaters.
If you want to mess with your Xbox - BUY A DESKTOP COMPUTER. The only reasonable expectation you have with an Xbox is to be able to drop games in and play them.
Resist temptation. Get a PS2, or better yet, run Linux and play Tux Racer on your workstation - FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!
Lodragan Draoidh
The more you explain it, the more I don't understand it. - Mark Twain
Word of advice: play less games and try reading a book.
If a manufacturer wants to sell something at a loss, that's their own dumb fault and doesn't entitle them to infringe upon my rights of ownership of a good as a consumer.
This is my sig.
Does anyone know the address it uses to download from the internet? If your system is behind a firewall, couldn't you block access to that site or domain?
I realize this would be temporary once they start making game loaders install patches for them. They could include something like this in an updated game developer SDK.
I've been reading the replies to this comment & I have to say that you guys know the stuff isn't yours. The hardware is yes but the software isn't. It hasn't been your software ever. You may own the CD it's on but the bits burned on to it are owned by the creator of the content. Every piece of NON GPL software has been this way since I can remember. The EULA states it isn't yours. That's why you can't just do whatever with it you want. You never have been free to hack it. The BIOS in the XBOX is yours too, but the software they put on it to boot-probably thiers. That's stretching it a bit but I'm sure some M$ lawyer could make it sound good.
Now before the flames begin, I believe that what I buy should be mine to do whatever with. But due to whatever rules that govern software it just doesn't happen. For instance, if I mod my Nokia phone with some new software I can probably bet that Verizon isn't gonna let me access their network. Yeah the phone is mine, but they don't have to let it on thier network if it's been modded. Lemme change some settings in my RCA modem to get better DL speeds on Comcast cable internet. Yep, Comcast will shut it off. Go mod your car's CPU and bet that Ford will say nope you voided the warranty, not our problem. Not all car mods are legal.
Software has never been anyone's it's been sold to. Why does anyone think M$ will change just because it's a video game system?
Yet nobody complains that it updates without authorization.
No one should be shocked at this, it was predicted as soon as the bug was found and exploited. Anyone that cares, but who doesn't mod their box and flash its BIOS (or whatever) by the time they next let it connect to the Interweb is an idiot.
Not to be a devil's advocate but...
In the present capitalist trend, everything you buy is actually not yours, after you've bought it. You pay money to effectively receive the right to use something, in some limited fashion that precludes you from doing anything to detract from the licensor's business model.
In the socialist system, when you get a good, you can do anything with it that you want. Property may be redistributed, but, at least if you do wind up with property, you actually have something. Under capitalism, you have nothing at all but what the manufacturer tells you that you have, at their whim.
This is my sig.
Yes but the article states that you don't have to have an Xbox live account for the update to occur. Apparently, a game with Xbox live capablities can "phone home" and update without your consent.
Since Microsoft owns the hardware, they can also install a patch that makes it completely unusable, right?
Hey don't give them any ideas.
They may end up doing that so everybody has to upgrade to an Xbox2.
Have you tried Linux yet?
It's people like you that make this world suck.
Congratulations you have just been targeted by the Microsoft moderator.
If you had been moderated normally you would be at +5 inisightful.
Furthermore the air would hold the aroma of freshly smoked crack.
is made to be used for the purpose of the person who bought it. A bike is meant to take your places, but that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to take off the wheel and hook it up to a generator (or whatever other creative modification cames up).
Just because other people are more creative than you doesn't give you a right to bash them. Whether or not the end result of this patch was to block linux, it still stands that applying this patch without the owner's permissions is a violation.
How about if somebody covertly "patched" your DSL/cable modem, and suddenly it prevented your from doing slashdot, or something that depending on it it operating in a certain way.
Will add sig later...
Why wasn't this story in the "Games (Xbox)" category? I posted two replies before I realised that I've specifically checked off that I don't care about this on my homepage preferences page.
Um. Every console ever shipped to this date was a loss leader. That's the way that the economics of game consoles works - you sell the console as a loss leader and make up the profits on the games.
This is true for EVERY existing console game out there.
"According to The Inquirer, Microsoft has used their Xbox Live Vole System to patch any Xboxes that access it....without asking their permission before installing the software. Further, according to The Xbox Linux Project, users who do not have an Xbox Live account may find themselves being patched without permission as well.... I don't know if I feel comfortable with ANYONE installing software on my hardware without asking permission first."
Oh come the FUCK on.
Did you just miss the entire function of a console? It's called plug n' play you whining freaks, designed specifically to make downloads, patching and other OS maintence/updates as transparent as possible while allowing the user to concentrate on gaming , or did you forget that MINOR point in the process of modding the XBox for a function if was never intended to fullfill? Like saaaaay... TURNING IT INTO A PC AND ADDING LINUX TO IT?????
And golly gee whiz, those same Linux Activists are now finding that their console, designed to primarily be a hands off OS device, is downloading patches WITHOUT THEIR PERMISSION!?!?! THE HORROR! Will you people get some perspective, not to mention a freakin' CLUE!??! Of course it's downloading and patching shit without your permission since that was how it was designed in the first place-- A seemless gaming experience, which means not asking you all the annoying details on OS upkeep. IMAGINE THAT.
And for cryin out loud, it's not what you're doing that pisses me off so much, it's the innocent, self-righteous "we've been wronged!" attitude that you take doing it. Give it a rest already. You're modding a device beyond it original purpose and beyond the intentions/plans of the designers. Suck it up already.
You need a FREE iPod Nano
Does this mean that I can't use my X-BOX to share MP3's with 12 year old girls? I know, I know ... Score: 1 Offtopic ...
Just seems that every other story of late is about the RIAA and file swapping.
Cant you like sue MS for illegally breaching a computer system that you own? kinda reminds me of the terrorist act or whatever it was... oh PATRIOT act! yeah, now THAT would be funny, M$ getting sued for terrorist activites.... breaking into privatley owned boxenz at someones residence & "installing unauthorized" software :D
- You're not paranoid, they really are after you.
Umm
Sony and Nintendo have consistently sold console systems as loss-leaders with the plan to recoup costs primarily from game licenses.
Not trying to stick up for MS, but they hardly *innovated* that particular tactic.
Try to remember that we are not talking about a general purpose computer, we are talking about a specific purpose, console system. If you don't like them, great, don't buy them. There are lots of games that are made for the PC (heck, I just broke down and bought my first console since the Atari 2600 'cause I didn't see the need).
A console is ENTIRELY about control.
The console manufacturer typically charged an exhorbitant fee for a dev kit.
They also charged premium prices for distribution.
For those charges, a game company would have access to a relatively captive audience (they already own the system, if they don't buy any games then its their loss), and a fixed set of hardware/software (so that they can specifically target the game
Not saying that all development houses take advantage of everything, and recently there has been a trend toward a more open approach on the Dev kit side, but it still is preaty much about control.
This space for rent. All reasonable inquiries will be entertained at proprietors discretion.
isnt the inquirer a tabloid? like the kind that reports about aliens landing in canada and other junk like that?
What are you mods thinking? Mod this man down before word gets out!
If your theory is different from practice, then your theory is wrong.
This is just the same has forced childhood immunization for better public heath.
;-P
The last time such a human "patch" was so risky to apply was before the original vaccination, when they gave children the live smallpox in order to give them immunity (but many still died because of this).
Also, if a computer breaks from patching, you can still format the drive and install your favorite Linux or BSD distro...
Originally, it was to have specialized hardware to do one thing--and to do it well.
Is that why Atari sued activation for making 2600 games? Is that why Nintendo created the lockout chip? attempted total dominance has been a part of the console game since the beginning.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
I admit freely that I own an xbox and I bought it for one reason, and one reason only: to play games. Now this may come as a shock to some people, but I do not intend to run Linux on my xbox, neither do I want to play pirated games. I earn enough money to pay for my games by now and I generally consider my software piracy days over.
I own this xbox purely for entertainment purposes and so far, I consider myself reasonably well entertained, even though the games here in Australia are released about a hundred years later than anywhere else in the world.
I asked for a refund - and got my monkey back.
I don't know if I feel comfortable with ANYONE installing software on my hardware without asking permission first.
Sue Microsoft.
Seriously though, the solution here is to try to firewall off your x-box and do packet filtering. Block any "update" patches.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
In capitalism, your dollar is your vote. If a product's use is restricted by contract to the point that it won't do what you want to do with it -- don't vote for it! Spend your dollars elsewhere. When enough people do the same thing, only then, will change occur. If everybody stopped sending MS their money, soon they'd be just like SCO.
{whine on} If you don't send me your money, I'll sue you! {whine off}
I'd like to sell tickets to THAT show!
karma: Marianas Trench (mostly blub blub)
Likewise with sattelite tv boxes that update on the fly without notice, operating systems that can update on the fly, cell phones, pagers, etc all agree'd by an EULA that you never signed.
and you guys STILL find a way to bitch.
However, if you're speaking of communism as it exists in the world - sure it's yours... until the government bulldozes your home, takes your possessions, and tells you you're now working to build a factory on the land you used to farm to make cheap shoes. Have you ever lived in a communist country? I'd highly recommend the experience - there are still a few around you can support a fairly good lifestyle in just teaching english or going as an exchange student and living on loans. It's an experience. Don't just go to the tourist trap cities, and stay out of the "western" clubs and apartment complexes.
Capitalist markets become what is agreed upon by the consumer and the producers. I'll be happy to write software for you that you can own fully and can do what you like with - provided you'll write me a check that makes it worth my while.
I write code.
That's true of software, argulably music and movies, and possibly in the future computer hardware. The other 99% of things in the world you still own when you buy them.
It's been disconnected, on the floor behind the sofa, since about a month after I bought it. I never did find an Xbox game I wanted to play. :(
3) Don't buy any new games, or old games that they've just done another run of.
I'd be extremely upset if I had an XBox right now, even if I didn't run Linux on it. This was not a patch designed for the benefit of the users, it harmed a number of them, and it didn't give so much as a heads-up that it was installing.
Whether or not they've got the right to do something like that, it's a fantastic way to burn bridges. But then again you're not a big leaguer in video games these days until you've given hobbyists a good kick.
Preferably one noticeably absent of acronyms.
that your next automobile is made by ...
Microsoft. (well, not really yours.)
the EULA that came with the vehicle
prohibits you from puting a bumper
sticker on it, or an air freshener
on the rear view mirror (and boy,
do you need it
Seems not a lot has changed since then...
Fight or flight its all the same
Live to die another day
--Ryan
With Tivo, they can update the software on the Tivo box whenever they want. In fact, I'm sure one of these days, I'll wake up and find my 30 second skip feature has disappeared.
Anyways, with more and more networked devices out there, I suspect this will become very common... its just too compelling from an operations point of view to be able to update the software automatically. Think about it - less versions out there to support, more advertising possibiliites, new features they want to sell to you (like Tivo's HMO), bug and security fixes, etc....
-kn
Here in Australia (and the UK I think) a good has to be "fit for purpose" which basically means being fit for the purpose for which they are generally sold, and also being fit for any specific or particular purpose made known at the time of purchase agreement.
I think that most reasonable people would accept that the purpose for which an XBox is generally sold is for the running of XBox games. Unless an update interferes with that and therefore renders the XBox unfit for purpose I doubt we'd get much help from consumer protection law.
The concept of a "reasonable person" is also used. I doubt you could argue successfully that a "reasonable person" would expect something that is unadvertised by the manufacturer and publically discussed as a "bug" is a "feature" that has subsequently been removed.
So I think in terms of consumer protection law you'd be out of luck in declaring that the product has been rendered defective or unfit for purpose by the update.
There might be other legal avenues, but I think that one is closed.
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
BOYCOTT X-BOX as well as Microsoft!
Trust me. It is for the benefit of the users. Christmas is coming. Things are a-foot.
Furthermore, I would prefer that Microsoft patch and update my xbox via xbox live than do things the way Sony is--namely, releasing several different versions of the PS2 with different drivers. And then when someone buys a brand new PS2 with the older drivers (so none of the new games play), attempting to blame the customer for the problem!
Sony was trying to get a tax break, so they really pushed to have the PlayStation 2 classified as a computer rather than a video game console. To that end, they released Linux and the development kit add-on for it.
Microsoft has been very adamant. According to the Xbox Terminology Guide, you are only allowed to call it the "Xbox Video Game System."
The classification does tend to support a certain viewpoint, however. Microsoft isn't auto-updating your computer unless you consent. They're upgrading your video game console...although you do consent when you sign up for Live, if you actually read the Terms of Service.
RomSteady - I came, I saw, I tested. GamerTag: RomSteady / http://www.romsteady.net
For months as the Xbox approached you preached that it was an evil that M$ wanted to take over the gaming industry.
Then you decided they were geeky enough if you could install Linux (the Arch Competitor of Microsoft).
You bought hardware and claim it as your own, with Microsoft saying if you are going to use their services, you aree going to have to maintain their security.
Then you all act surprised like you can't believe Microsoft would actually fight to have their software remain intact.
You play with fire and you get burned.
Razzious Domini
I could be a GREAT KARMA WHORE if I could just shed the few morals I have left.
I bought my Xbox because the GameCube's games seem like they're mostly for 14 year olds [BBC speculation]. Now, I'm going to go upstairs and intentionally install the update because I don't give a damn. I have my linux server right next to me, that's what I bought it for. That's not why I bought my Xbox.
If 99.9% of the users wouldn't notice it because they don't run Linux, then now we have 99.9% of the users having code installed that is not necessary but for 0.1% of the users.
What are MS thinking? They're not exactly known for their bug-free bug fixes. What if something goes wrong here? Is the risk really worth it to stop such a minority of X-Box owners?
It seems all MS is doing is patching the exploit in the dash... Most Xbox modders knew this was going to happen and said this was going to be a cat-and-mouse game if you threw Live into the mix - they were right. What it boils down to basically is:
If you want Live, use a modchip with a switch or an older Xbox that supports multiple BIOS images on the TSOP, or just an unmodded Xbox.
If you don't care about Live, just flash your TSOP and be done with it.
xbox-scene.com has excellent tutorials on how to get the 007: Agent Under Fire and Mechassult hacks onto an unmodified Xbox using only a memory card, your Xbox joystick and a modified USB cable. The instructions for using these hacks to reflash the TSOP are very easy to follow and accurate for every Xbox version.
I've modded 5 Xboxes by flashing the TSOP so far and haven't had a single problem... If you don't care about Live, it's the easiest and cheapest way to go.
---
DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
... can XBOX Live also upgrade the EULA you agreed to, without your permission?
Correct Horse Battery Staple: 72 bits of entropy. Enter "Correct H" into google. When it generates the phrase, that's
Voles are part of the same subfamily as Lemmings, and there is practically no difference between the two groups...
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
isn't it funny how slashdotters are using theinquirer as if it's a reliable news source? It's the damn tabloids of IT!
[...] their console, designed to primarily be a hands off OS device, is downloading patches WITHOUT THEIR PERMISSION!?!?! THE HORROR!
And that's the crux of the problem. It does no one harm to add a message that says "Your XBox will now be updated. If you do not update you will not be able to play online." before the actual update happens. I might note that this is exactly what Square does with its PS2 PlayOnline system: it won't let you play without the newest version, for obvious reasons, but it gives you a chance to cancel before it starts the download. "Hands-off" or not, that's the way it should be done. (And not just because of this particular case; the user might have simply connected to check messages and not have time to download a large update, for example. This has happened to me before on PlayOnline, but since I was able to cancel the update it did not turn into a bigger problem.)
I admit I wouldn't be quite as upset if it was, say, General Electric instead of Microsoft. However, it's not because it's Microsoft, per se (trying to use a hacked box on an online service is just stupid); it's that Microsoft has already announced their intention, or at least desire, to implement a similar auto-update system in future versions of Windows, which I'm very concerned about.
There is more urban legend here than actual history. While a few companies have sold console systems at a loss (notably Sega), most have not. Sony certainly doesn't and Nintendo historically didn't (but may have on the GameCube).
Here's one source on the matter.
Search 2010 Gen Con events
It's a bug, their fixing it, whats the problem?
If you want to run linux then Mod your box, if you want to go Live then don't.
You want both then get 2 Xboxes, they aren`t that expensive.
When was the last time you checked *exactly* what was installed the last time you patched/upgraded, right down to the source code.
CJC (A happy Xbox user Ta)
I wonder if they happened to patch the Xbox mini os against some recently discovered RPC and DCOM issues aswell.... can't you just see it now, Xbox zombie army of DDoS' attacks Microsoft
______ Eagles may fly but monkeys don't get sucked into jet engines.
I am shocked that it's possible to remotely modify an Xbox. By using the same backdoor it might be possible for ANYONE to destroy ANY Xbox remotely. Let the next sobig virus send that exploit to random IP addresses and soon enough every Xbox with an IP address be destroyed. Not good.
warning, the link of the parent shows goatse image
While I can see people questioning the auto-update feature, I think it is a good thing for the Xbox Live! community. Here's why...
1) Cheaters. While we all would like it if people didn't cheat, it is inevitable that they will. So, by forcing people to have these updates, they are ensuring that everyone is going to continue to play on a level playing field. I guess the alternative would be for them to give a pop-up stating that they will be denying access after a certain date if the Xbox is not updated, but history tells you that people will refuse to update and then complain when they get their access pulled. So, to make things easier (for the consumer), the auto-update feature is a definite plus.
2) Viruses. Another thing that 'would' and probably 'will' happen. If MS didn't block people with MOD Chips and Linux installed on their systems, it is inevitable that someone, somewhere, would write a little virus that exploits these vulnerabilities to ruin people's Xbox systems. Then, if this were to happen, MS would most likely be held liable because these people are logging into a private server, etc, etc. So, again, to ensure that everyone is safe on their network and to ensure that they all can play the game evenly, I think these auto-updates are a 'good' idea.
If these updates did anything to harm the game or the consumer, then I would be against these updates. However, since they 'only' fix a previous vulnerability that could have the potential to ruin the Xbox or the Xbox Live! service, I think it is good for MS to patch the sytems that are trying to access the Live! service.
Other point, how many people actually have their Xbox hooked up to the internet that don't use the Xbox live service anyway? Really, why would you have it hooked up to the net unless you were using the Xbox Live! service?
Umm, since they're doing it, they obviously think so.
Why the surprise? Why the indignation? What was it about Microsoft's business practices that led you to believe they'd do ANYTHING BUT what they're doing?
I saw the writing on the wall when they first announced xbox, and it's why I've never played Halo. Until the end of this month. w00t!
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
Just posting this because I saw several people post to Gord's lame analysis of selling consoles for losses. Yes, the GC did sell for a small loss initially. Yes, the PS2 has been sold at a loss in at least some markets, some of the time (for example, the first shipment to the USA, which had to be shipped by air - very expensive. See also Australia.). The Xbox has obviously been sold at a loss, though whether it still is is unclear.
There is no excellent beauty that hath not some strangeness in the proportion. -- Francis Bacon
Wouldn't this way of patching provide the same trick for hacking it? rebuild your server to become a fake "live server" log your xbox on to it, and let it provide a "patch" that will free your xbox from its prison.
You need the correct version and if fixing an exploit is part of that change then so be it. Live with it or sell your Xbox.
Everyone pretty much knows that they want to have solid DRM (Palladium, etc); so what better way to test it than to practically dare everyone to break it.
Once people stop breaking it, I bet they release their DRM.
Of course... everyone says "There's no way in HELL I'll ever run a Palladium system, unless to try and crack it". But make no mistake, the very first Palladium device will be XBOX2. And after everyone is addicted to Microsoft gaming hardware and hardware subsidization, they will come to believe "ahhh it's not that bad... so what if they own my box". The line in the sand is drawn here... what will you do about it?
SCO: 800-726-8649
Verisign: 800-361-8319, 888-642-9675
Diebold: 800-433-VOTE (8683)
Only valid Point M$ has is making sure legitimate systems connect to Live for online play. So for someone to succesfully connect to a live server to be subjected to a system check/update etc.. is not in question. For a live customer who signed an agrement which would indicate automatic updates when attaching to live servers is legit.
HOWEVER patching systems not signed up for the live service without the owners consent is not right. Thats like taking you car to the dealership for a tune up and they replace your aftermarket rims and replace them with stock because they were not 'standard' without asking your permission. It is an unauthorized alteration of your system. That is not M$'s box it is property of whoever purchased it. M$ has the right to not allow unconforming boxes to access its system, it does not have the right to alter your system so that it is conforming without your consent.
EULA for the equipment cannot determin the use of the equipment. You can't state a phone can only be used for a phone and not a paper weight. You can't say this system is not allowed to be used for something we don't want it to be used for. And for those contending this is a console and thus not a PC all I can say is you don't understand this at a technical enough level. This is like ford selling you a car that will only drive on certain roads or use gas dispensed at a specific gas station chain. For any who contend X-box is not a PC you simply don't get it. a PS II or Game cube are not PC's.. they have a differnt base architeture which physically keep them from running PC software. An XBOX is a PC. It uses X-86 PC compatabile hardware architecture. Its ability to use any PC compatible software is artificially limited by the hardware control software. M$ has everyright to sell a limited system, it does not have the right to alter your removal of that limitation without first obtaining your consent, and obtaining your consent means you have to have a reasonable chance to deny the request. Patching a system not signed up for the live service without the owners consent is criminal.
I don't ask you to be me. I only ask you not expect me to be you.
There was no form of EULA that came with my Xbox at all. There was quite a big one that came with Xbox Live, however.
As long as the dashboard bug doesn't start turning up fixed in off-the-shelf Xboexes anytime soon, I won't be too worried. With the Xbox coming down to 99 next month, I'm tempted to get one just to pop Linux on and use as a small fileserver. It works out cheaper that mini-itx...
...this is Microsoft we're talking about here, for crying out loud! I thik they are being totally consistent with their notorious scumbagness.
Sigged!
Just out of interest what ips do I need to ban to stop this from happening ?
http://xbox.com/assets/en-us/HardwareManuals/Memor y_Unit.pdf
Seems that the dash does allow you to copy to-from your hard drive and a memory card (as it should).
Evil worm army of death: Step1) Code evil worm in perl. Compile it into an exe using activestate perl compiler thingy. Step2) Sniff traffic that xbox/sends recieve to download/install patches without user's persmission. Step3) Emulate the method that the xbox uses, install evil worm into 10 xboxes. Step4) Watch microsoft be held responsible for bringing down major websites thanks to the evil worm DDoSing.
Here's a simple command, while it doesn't fix DNS queries, it won't let any traffic go through to their server:
Just run, as root:
iptables -A OUTPUT -d 64.94.110.11 -j REJECT
if you do this on your linux-based router, all boxes behind the router will be blocked from their site as well.
PS: I don't know how this might interfere if you already have iptables rules set up
sig? uhh, umm, ok
If somebody hacks an X-Box Live game and cheats, that person is harming every other player in the game.
Well boohoo... while cheaters sure are annoying when you are playing an online game don't you think it's just a bit much to say they are "harming" every other player in the game? I mean, it's just a game.
Everyone is so uptight these days... people need to relax. Hell, maybe you might even laugh at how funny it is to watch the little war between the cheaters and the anti-cheat software like it's some kind of holy war.
Generally speaking (as laws are different in different countries).... Consumer protection law typically has the concepts of "fit for purpose" and the "reasonable person".
To be considered "fit for purpose" the good has to be fit for the general purpose for which it was sold as well as any specific additions covered by discussions etc between the purchaser and the seller.
On top of that is the concept of the "reasonable person".
As far as an XBox goes it's general purpose is to play XBox games (and work with other XBox hardware). The existence of the buffer underrun is clearly not required for that purpose.
You would find it very difficult to convince someone that a "reasonable person" would consider the buffer underrun as a feature of the product:
a) It is not advertised by the manufacturer.
b) In general discussion it is typically referred to as a bug (ie the "Dashboard bug") rather than as a feature of the product.
The case with your Apex is somewhat different. The functionality that disappeared was a real feature that a "reasonable person" purchasing the product would expect to (continue to) be there.
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
you can have a sfc catalog that has the defs updated. this basicaly means once it is added it expects the new verion that is giving the hell. also if the catalog isn't updated, you can have security patches or somehting else shut down certain features or breaking software after running sfc creating dll hell again.
while i agree sfc is a wonderfull tool, it isn't fool proof or capable of being fool proof. as you noticed they changed sfc to active file protection basically stopping you from changing the dlls or system file. instead new libraries needed to be created. nd bla bla bla.. or somehitng like that
Don't ruin it for the rest of us, Blabby McBlabber! If even one creature from microsoft's legal team reads your post, consumers will be signing their souls and all of their precious, precious fluids/organs/Kool-Aid points away for every piece of software or hardware in actual *ink* (possibly blood). "Smart" "Business" is an infectious disease... it's like herpes... only I don't have it!
C'mon, you know lawyers...
"What's that, a broken neck? Great!"
However, if they were to rent out the X Boxes, rather than selling them, they could impose any terms and conditions they like.
Think of the marketting opportunities. You could have a basic package at $10/month which gets you the hardware and a couple of games. Then you could have $20/month, $40/month, etc. right up to $250/month for people with more money than sense.
History has shown that where Microsoft products are concerned, a substantial proportion of people have more money than sense. Bill and cronies could be making money hand over fist out of this.
But then, what do I know?
Stick Men
I ended up with a bug such that if IE (fully patched 6) loaded a website that contained the text "javascript" (even as part of a link) it would crash. If you typed javascript into the googlebar, it crashed. If you typed javascript into the address bar, it crashed.
All in all, I got very good at finding sites that ONLY refer to ECMA script and never mention javascript...
No proof of course, but I notice I still haven't installed the google bar after several months...
Q.
Insert Signature Here
I was planning to make some similar pun about voles being little rat-like rodents, so I went Googling to find out more about them. The third hit was a Nature article about how "Viral Gene Therapy makes male Voles more faithful and friendly". So if you want your VOLE to act nice, you'd better give it a virus.....
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
All you bought was the right to feed it electricity for him, If you're a good little boy he may let you look at some eye candy.
Don't let THEM immanentize the Eschaton!
You think you own it, do you?
They can and do. When you boot a game, it doesn't read the OS off the HD, it reads it off the disc.
Using the hard drive to hold patches just brings us back to Windows DLL Hell.
Since the HD files are only used when running the dashboard, not while running 3rd party software (i.e. games), "DLL Hell" is not an issue. Patching the firmware might be a concern, but they can't do that - only ship it with new machines.
The only thing that is affected by patching the system dashboard is the system dashboard, which is a controlled environment (as far as Microsoft is concerned, anyway). There should be no non-MS software on the HD's system partition, or using the HD files, so as long as MS test it successfully on one Xbox, it will work on all of them.
If you install 3rd party software on the HD yourself (e.g. EvolutionX or Linux), and it gets broken by a patch MS pushes at you, I'm sure they don't care in the slightest. I doubt anyone else seriously believes MS has any obligation to worry about breaking anything except what they told you it would do - run the dashboard and play games.
Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
XBox auto-update is a godsend.
"I am slashbot, hear me roar!"
You are only licensing its useage. Read your freaking Harware license that came with the machine. ITS Microsoft's software and you are obligated to play with the rest of the legit users out there with the console or be left out in the cold.
People who hack the box have no concept of what those who actually have to program the games for the box go through.
today u can't run linux on the xbox... what's next?
will the next version of windows seek out mozilla, winamp, gaim, etc and remove them from your hard drive because it's a 'security risk'? why don't they take all the mp3s and avi/mpegs while they're at it? honestly, this looks like just the beginning for 'auto-update'. isn't this sort of thing already in win xp?
The XBox isn't sold as an Intel PC, it is sold as a console.
If you go into a shop and ask "Is this suitable for use as a general PC" they will say no.
No one is being scammed. The XBox is clearly being marketed for a specific purpose. If you want to use it for another purpose then fine, but you are on your own.
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
But your tricked Microsoft into selling it to you at a loss! So it's still their hardware, you're just renting it.
No, wait... that's in Bizarro World.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
Reading this in conjunction with numerous other articles regarding MS and their role in forcefeeding DRM hardware and software to the public, it occurs to me that the X-Box does a great deal more than provide yet another revenue source for MS.
It also provides a great deal of raw data in terms of how to design and market a product that incorporates not only software that is in their minds still legally the property of MS, but now a hardware product that is bound to its parent in the same fashion.
They get to see in a relatively small marketplace just how intrusive they can be before even the dullest customer gets irked by their paternalistic attitude, while at the same time they get to scrutinize very closely those rebellious souls amongst us who will always find a way to subvert that paternalism by hacking the system... and they can see how they do it; both how they attack the problem, and what technology they bring to bear on the solution. We advertise our successes in all their glory across a hundred thousand websites every day, complete with photos which show every step in surgical precision.
For them it's a win/win situation; they've sold somewhere in the neighborhood of 16 million units, generating some 30-odd million dollars in revenue, not counting the games... but even if they GAVE the X-Boxes away, that 30 million dollars and the 10 million or so spent developing the X-Box would still be a bargain to them.
They'll walk away with the knowledge of how to sew up the Digital Entertainment industry in their little DRM bag, and by the time an unsuspecting public realizes what they've done MS will once again be the de facto standard of yet another invasive industry that impacts their daily lives. By then, the notion of buying a computer that has many of it's major features locked away behind a firewall against its "owner" will seem perfectly sensible, and Big Brother will get another toe inside the door.
I'm impressed. Not only have they managed to run one of the biggest marketing experiments ever imagined; one which may very well place them at the forefront of the newly emerging Digital Entertainment industry... They got the subjects of the experiment to pay for it themselves.
Mnem
"Fear is good - Keep that, but travel light. Forget the hate."
Microsoft is hostile to supporting Linux on their own platform as it undermines the business model of the X-Box and obviously Linux is the closest competitor to their own flagship operating system (XP or Server .NET 2003).
I find Microsoft breathtakingly arrogant and their products extremely inefficient and bloaty but you cannot be surprised when they want to patch their own product to reduce the likelyhood of hackers messing about with the X-Box Live network!
No, the most worrying aspect about all of this is the support that it lends (to average users) to the 'Palladium' initiative and to trusted computing in general - i.e. to turn all computers into turnkey systems that cannot be modified by the end user.
My suggestion? Support other vendors that actively encourage Open Source such as Sony and their PS/2
Playstation 2 Linux Kit
Playstation 2 Linux Home Page
and withdraw any support for products (such as the X-Box) that encourage 'trusted computing' and Palladium.
BTW I use both M$ XP at work/home and various flavours of Linux.
Why use a soggy Xbox when you get a better real computer for less money? A mini-PC or a PS2 would be money much better spent. Xbox just plain sucks so i cant figure out why ppl bother using it for linux. Even the size is rather clumsy.
Why pretend to be surprised? We know that Microsoft desnt play fair. Same thing will happen with MONO and some people will stand there and act surprised when MS drags them to court. Dont interact with them at all or get burnt, simple.
HTTP/1.1 400
I've been a gamer now for quiet a couple of years now. Nes, Megadrive, PC's, Linux, PS1, PS2, Gameboy, Gamegear. The list goes on and on even so far back to the Sinclair ZX. And I'm sure alot of readers can relate to me saying that I've either owned them or seriously over played them to a point that buying them would be a waste of $$$. Now days I humbly play PS2 and Gamecube... with the rest of the other entertainment systems gathering dust in the closet but as for the X-Bow well lets just say that if my grandmother was to buy me one for X-Mass I would be wishing that she had knitted one of her usual X-Mass woolen jumpers. As you may have noticed by now I'm not a fan. I'm a bit of a Slackware freak and in my opinion the only reason I personally would buy an X-Box would be to mod it with Linux..... just to piss Bill off :)
What use is one when it can't have good old Tux on it.
Probably the MAC address of the NIC in the XBox. You'd have to spoof it. You should be able to get all the XBoxes banned in a year or ten.
Who is Wesley Willis?
What MS are doing is quite probably against the law. If an XBox is considered to be a computer, then they are in clear violation of Section 3 of the Computer Misuse Act 1990, which states [emphasis mine] that:
3.-(1)A person is guilty of an offence if-
(a)he does any act which causes an unauthorised modification of the contents of any computer; and
(b)at the time when he does the act he has the requisite intent and the requisite knowledge.
(2)For the purposes of subsection (1)(b) above the requisite intent is an intent to cause a modification of the contents of any computer and by so doing-
(a)to impair the operation of any computer;
(b)to prevent or hinder access to any program or data held in any computer; or
(c)to impair the operation of any such program or the reliability of any such data.
(3)The intent need not be directed at-
(a)any particular computer;
(b)any particular program or data or a program or data of any particular kind; or
(c)any particular modification or a modification of any particular kind.
(4)For the purposes of subsection (1)(b) above the requisite knowledge is knowledge that any modification he intends to cause is unauthorised.
(5)It is immaterial for the purposes of this section whether an unauthorised modification or any intended effect of it of a kind mentioned in subsection (2) above is, or is intended to be, permanent or merely temporary.
(6)For the purposes of the [1971 c.48.] Criminal Damage Act 1971 a modification of the contents of a computer shall not be regarded as damaging any computer or computer storage medium unless its effect on that computer or computer storage medium impairs its physical condition.
(7)A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable-
(a)on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum or to both; and
(b)on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years or to a fine or to both.
So, according to section 3 subsection 4, If you did not give Microsoft explicit permission to modify your XBox, but they deliberately changed some software or data on it to stop you doing something, then they have quite probably broken the law. You may not have automatically authorised the modification merely by opening the box, see Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 for my reasoning {note that certain sections would not be valid in respect of a software licence}, but I am no lawyer.
Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
... if I don't have anything plugged in?
Is this is like the Company I dealt with once who claimed to have remotely updated my server despite the fact that it was down at the time they claimed to have done the update?
If you want to e-mail me, use my PGP Key.
-it doesn't affect other functions of your machine
-it is removeable (the whole thing I mean)
-it is an optional part of your system to start with
-it can't connect without your knowledge if you have a decent firewall
I could go on.
Read Pynchon.
I think you are wrong. MS should find the middle ground. They could offer the patch with at least the requirement that you consent to have it applied, and with an explanation of the consequences. They could *not* apply it unless you are actually connecting to X-Box Live, rather than just leaving your machine turned on.
Or, even crazier, they could take into account that a lot of people want to use their machine in a certain way and make the patch give people a legitimate way to install Linux if they want to.
People are complaining because their property is being tampered with without their knowledge or consent, not because the benevolent MS corporation is trying to get rid of a terrible bug.
Read Pynchon.
"an XBox is not a PC"
Yeah, it's not like it has:
- a hard drive
- a processor
- memory
- Various I/O devices
- The ability to run compiled computer code
- Small size and low price
I'd call that a P(ersonal) C(omputer), wouldn't you? I mean, when it comes down to it, an XBox is a modified Celeron with a smallish hard disk and a custom graphics chip.
Read Pynchon.
.. they just announced that Halo for the PC went Gold yesterday. Whoohoo! Forget Half-Life.. I've been salivating over a New Bungie Game since the movie in '99.
Anyway, i think everyone should carefully read the EULAs before buying or using MS products. It's not that I support MS, but since you buy a product whose EULA specifically states that the product still belongs to MS and that you do not have the right to alter it, then the MS can do what it wants with it, whether it is right or not.
The same holds for the MS services as well... take as an example the Hotmail EULA...
The solution to the MS problem is rather simple... read the EULA carefully and don't buy the product if you feel the license violates your rights (which should be the case for almost every MS product)
How to Destroy Angels II
And that's the crux of the problem. It does no one harm to add a message that says "Your XBox will now be updated. If you do not update you will not be able to play online." before the actual update happens.
...and add a checkbox "Autometically install patches" that is checked by default. Then the 99,9% who couldn't care less will see it only once and are happy, and the 0,1% bitching on Slashdot can't complain...
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
" Um. Every console ever shipped to this date was a loss leader"
Um. no, they aren't.
Neither Sony or Nintendo sell their consoles for less than the cost of production. They did it intially for the first 6 months, but microsoft seems to be raising this to a money-losing artform.
that's right. we'll not give a dime to that phonIE fauxking payper liesense stock markup FraUD execrable.
.compliant. if you think that you are already compliant, & it's somebody else, consider this a chance to rat them out, to gain re-admission to the onLIEn wwwhirled again, (c SourceForgerIE(tm) all rights reserved, you have none).
/.puppets.
.asp on that. when the lights come up, there'll be no going back, & no where to hide.
coming soon to/already on, yOUR desktop/network?:
Due to excessive bad posting from this IP or Subnet, comment posting has temporarily (permanently, if we could figure out how to do it) been disabled. If it's you, consider this a chance to sit in the timeout corner. If it's someone else, this is a chance to hunt them down. If you think this is unfair, we don't care.
alert: you've been lax in yOUR payper liesense 'upgrades', you're out.
alert: there's a rumour that you've been badmouthing/lowrating the corepirate nazis, & the naykid furor of the felonious kingdumb, you're out.
alert: looks like yOUR kids have been listening to music again, you're out.
alert: although you appear to be browsing regularly, you've failed to make a purchase recently, you're out.
consider this a chance to stare at your monitor screen, & plan how you can become
etc... lookout bullow. these foulcurrs haven't a clue yet, as to what J. Public can do, once he's peaced off. they live in a tiny wwworld, consisting of only their owned greed/fear based goals. they should get ready to see the light.
we're building a vessel that floats on almost any suBStance.
as to the newclear power/planet/population rescue initiative:
it's all free (as in survival), & available immediately to you/all of US.
as you can maybe already see, yOUR survival/success is not the least bit dependent on the gadgets/combinations of the greed/fear based corepirate nazis, & their phonIE ?pr? ?firm? buyassed
consult with/trust in yOUR creator. more breathing. vote with yOUR wallet (somtimes that means not buying anything, a notion previously unmentioned buy the greed/fear/war mongers). seek others of non-aggressive/positive behaviours/intentions. stop wasting anything/being frivolous. that's the spirit.
investigate the newclear power plan. J. Public et AL has yet to become involved in open/honest 'net communications/commerce in a meaningful way. that's mostly due to the MiSinformation suppLIEd buy phonIE ?pr? ?firm?/stock markup FraUD execrable, etc...
truth is, there's no better/more affordable/effective way that we know of, for J. to reach other J.'s &/or their respective markets.
the overbullowned greed/fear based phonIE marketeers are self eliminating by their owned greed/fear/ego based evile MiSintentions. they must deny the existence of the power that is dissolving their ability to continue their self-centered evile behaviours.
as the lights continue to come up, you'll see what we mean. meanwhile, there are plenty of challenges, not the least of which is the planet/population rescue (from the corepirate nazi/walking dead contingent) initiative.
EVERYTHING is going to change, despite the lameNT of the evile wons. you can bet your
we weren't planted here to facilitate/perpetuate the excesses of a handful of Godless felons. you already know that? yOUR ONLY purpose here is to help one another. any other pretense is totally false.
pay attention (to yOUR environment, for example). that's quite affordable, & leads to insights on preserving life as it should/could/will be again. everything's ALL about yOUR motives.
that old tune title (hope we don't get 'busted' for using it) "make the world go away", takes on new/varied meaning in these times.
the prevalent notion that 'everything will be taken care of' without yOUR knowledge/participation is insidiously misleading.
in our estimation, the biggest
Dollars to donuts it says that you agree that by connecting to the Live! service that Microsoft reserves the right to auto-update, just like MediaPlayer on XP. Caveat Emptor.
- gtaluvit (prnc. GOT-tuh-LUV-it)
According to the licence agreement that comes with every x-box (and to which you "agree" by breaking the seal of the x-box package -- a "seal-through" agreement ?), microsoft does _not_ sell you the x-box. It sells you a licence to use it.
So, it's microsft's hardware, not yours, and they're supposedly within their rights to update it.
The question remains, wether a) the licence is legal (I don't believe it's legal in Norway, where I live, because of rather strictly defined consumer rights, and legal definitions of sale of a product), and b) If it _is_ legal, does it still apply after a forced update -- ie after the product licenced has been altered by microsoft ?
I for one welcome our new bug fixing overlords...
Business \Busi"ness\, n.;
A scam in which all people involved perceive as beneficial...
Really, all M$ software is designed to be abused by Microsoft at will. The upgrade train has been automated. Where once you had to actually buy games or new programs to get "patches" and "updates" to sytem files like ActiveX, DirectX and other DLL hell files, Microsoft has finally moved up to web distribution. Now Microsoft users feel compelled by fear of worms and viruses to push the "update" advertisment that pops up on their screen without asking. System obsolescence is garunteed and as before the only way to keep a M$ box working is to not install newer software on it or use it for browsing and email.
This Xbox thing that prevents free software from running is sure to find it's way to XP. XP already has a patented and secret filesystem, NTFS, and this was done simply to frustrate free software users. While systems like Knoppix can read and write to one of the three NTFS version, distributing software like that is a risky proposition in the US as the writers and distributors may be charged with patent infringment. NTFS adds very little to user data security for the cost, and certianly adds less than other freely available file systems such as ext3. The xbox is Micsrosoft's user lockin test bed and anyone who ever bought one has helped fund the next generation of screw you hardware.
If you would not contribute to this kind of behavior, dump Microsoft now while the alternatives work.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
I'm a weird talker, so keep reading.
;o)
I got a free xbox from microsoft.
(funny thing is it came from microsoft booth at linuxworld. hehehe) I have a different view of this situation, than most others do because I am not really a game player or gamer or whatever you call it now, plus I as stated got the box for free. Now historically, I Have played games on linux and on windows, but they waste so much time, that one becomes feasic and disciplined from wasting time on it. (learn this early on) Just like the same as watching a TV, I don't really enjoy watching TV because it wastes my time to actually making things or creating, yet sometimes it is of use, like when 911 hit or we start engaging other countries.
So anyway, I read this thread in slashdot about how everyone is screaming about lawsuits and everything with the xbox. I got one question for you all.
Has anyone tried to actually "ASK" Microsoft that you would request they send out another patch that would allow linux to be dual booted from the console? Or HELP em make a patch.
I am sure that Microsoft would not want to piss people off who are paying for their bread and butter.
I have not done the mod to modify my box to load linux, I have a lot of linux boxes already that get everything I need to get done, get done, BUT... I do think it would be neat to see linux on an xbox. And I could see, one day a need of popping the cover off the xbox and canibalizing parts for something else, so logically, why not hack it to work as an emergency communication device?
Only thing, (and remember I have not studied up on how to mod my xbox yet) I notice that there's no place for a keyboard. Unless someone has a keyboard what use is linux, I mean what are you all doing with it that's worth squat? And for those of you that already hacked a keyboard in, what did you use? And didn't that go against the original xbox linux challenge?
Maybe we should ask Microsoft for keyboards (hardware peripheral) for our xbox file management and of course running linux and other OS's?
I'd pay for a bad ass keyboard on my xbox.
Right?
Instead of fighting Microsoft, maybe this time we should be using their feedback to a more positive direction. Or Hey, Kick their ass out of Linux world and all our Linux Magazines!~
Ya know?
"persuade em"
Maybe it's happened already.
so then continue on with the lawsuits then. Lets crash our economy into the center of the earth, and everybody be Mad Max.
Xbox Live is the best thing that could happen to the Xbox. It provides a firm point of control for Microsoft.
You can still hack the console all you want - you'll just have to operate in the knowledge that you'll be cutting yourself off from the highly attractive added-value foo that is Xbox Live.
MS has the right to update your console by right of agreement, same as your digital cable company does your cable box. You are RESTRICTED by agreement from modifying the console! Be glad MS isn't subpoenaing you like the RIAA and that your only annoyance is with Xbox Live (which from the start was intended to be as much a security device against bugs and piracy and hacking as it was connectivityware). Count your lucky stars, 12 year old Xbox owners.
There is another {again weirdy} connector a short distance along the cable, that might be for an extension lead or it might be a deliberate weak link as an anti-pull-off-shelf measure.
OTOH, there is nothing that says they will be doing this when you buy one, so I think they are still probably breaking SOME law.
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
"I don't know if I feel comfortable with ANYONE installing software on my hardware without asking permission first."
Um, it's not just anyone, if the system phones home it's calling MS, right? So it's MS that's installing the patch, not someone like Valve or Activision.
Far smarter than trying to keep GNU/Linux running on these X-flaws would be drop them for good, and go for Play-stations instead.
I simply cannot understand why people on community insist in trying XboX for running Linux - one would be feeding microsoft anyway.
DOnt quote me wrong: its FUN to see GNU/Linux running on the X-boxes. What I call a COMPLETE LOSS OF TIME is BUYING an XBOX to run Linux just to piss on M$ once it's already running. If you want a console to hack on, the PS/2 is there. With not a 64 bit CPU like most die hard hackers will be able to buy in juysta couple months from now, but featuring a FULL 128 BIT CPU with a couple vector processor pipelines added in for bonus. Where eles e in x-box one can hack int eh wonderfull 4 registered 32 bit x86 which is -oh God - just the same as in his desktop machinne.
I'd say X-box s hacking have had their fun, and should be left for the roaches now - again, that do not appky to the perpretators themselves. Its quite obvious they get their fun, and should go on with it. But for the console hacker wannabe there is no point in feeding m$. It would be much nicer to find a way to hack standard DDR RAM in a PS/2, even if as an external firewire module.
-><- no
Many Thanks,
Luke
So sorry you can't twist your XBox into a cheapo PC, but you were never told you could. As an appliance, I expect it to work and not be hackable. I let cable and phone do what they need to do.
If you want a Linux machine that has the form factor and features of an XBOX, then spend your time building a Linux-based XBOX competitor. Spending your life fighting Microsoft is a waste of your skills and your life in general. Hell, I feel guilty sending this e-mail.
GET A CLUE: THE BEST WAY TO BEAT MICROSOFT IS TO PLAY YOUR OWN GAME, NOT THEIRS! You will never make Microsoft your bitch, get over it.
What this article never touches on (because it's Slashdot, and Slashdot hates Microsoft) is that the update adds serious functionality to the Live client. The changes are good. They updated the main dashboard as well, and that dashboard will ship with all new games.
They fixed the bugs because they were... get this... bugs. What allowed Linux to run on an unmodded xbox was a buffer overflow exploit. Why would you knowingly leave those in a code revision?
You want to run linux on a xbox? mod it. or just go buy a cheap Dell.
Why are you putting Linux on an X-Box? Seriously, I don't get it. What is so important about taking a MICROSOFT product and putting Linux on it?
Hell, you can buy a better computer for a tiny bit more. What is the point?
No, the point really is to make a platform that is totally controlled (both hardware and software). Everything since the NES has been that way; the NES lockout chips, legal and business actions are what set the pace for current day consoles. It is ironic that you gripe about this AND worship nintendo...
At least sony is letting normal people learn about, program and install Linux on the PS2 (via the PS2 Linux kit).
"Never, never suspect the dreams within the dreams of dreaming children." ~The Amazon Quartet
As long as the console works with every *xbox* game written they are doing nothing wrong. Alternative OS's are not supported. Go buy a fucking Lindows PC for $300 and hack the shit outta that instead. It's the same damn thing.
Exactly. So what was your point again? Do you think that a person must complain about everything in order to maintain the rite to complain about anything? Like maybe the things that actually bother them?
No, I do not want MS doing anything to my property without my express permission. I might let a friend of mine monkey around with my things, I may even let Google do it. This however does not give anyone else the same permission.
Good Day
"A few great minds are enough to endow humanity with monstrous power, but a few great hearts are not enough to make us w
You agreed to the EULA by buying the thing; the EULA is on the outside of the box (on the side). You had a couple of seconds while they rang it up to read the EULA, and now you have to stick by it. :P
"Never, never suspect the dreams within the dreams of dreaming children." ~The Amazon Quartet
I've havn't had a microsoft patch mess up anything on my system since Windows NT 4.0 SP1. SP3A and beyond have had no issues up through xp and windows 2003 server.
The XBox is updated IF and ONLY IF you are connected to the network and turn on your xbox with a "live aware" game. The xbox doesn't just randomly dial out and update.
BUT if you stick a game it that requires the update, the game will either install it from CD or if you have live configured download the latest dashboard for you.
whats wrong with that? WHen you signup for live most people consider this a FEATURE, especially since the dashboard updates added functionality over above and beyond what any other console can or will do within the next 2-3 years.
You are yet another person who didn't bother to read the article. Your logic is true, but does not apply. The first person who had their Linux stuff deleted didn't even have X-Box Live. MechWarrior updated his system so that there was an X-Box Live button on his dashboard, and he (foolishly) configured his X-Box for ethernet. Ne never bought the Live service or agreed to any of it's terms.
In your analogy, you modded your tires to monster truck size and put it in your (um, big) garage. Then a police officer came, looked in your garage while the door was open and gave you a ticket because you might one day put that on the road.
"Never, never suspect the dreams within the dreams of dreaming children." ~The Amazon Quartet
Will this flash prevent the Xecuter2.2 PRO chip from working? It's got an on/off switch on it so you can use the xbox live network..
I'm not a mod chip pro, just wondering..
Welcome to the End
I'm sorry, you seem to be under the missaprehension that it's your hardware that is having software installed on it. Take a look at the paperwork you got with your xbox. If it says you actually bought the hardware, not just the use thereof, I'll be amazed. You bought a license to use microsoft's xbox hardware, just like you are buying a license to use microsoft's xbox games, in the manner of their choosing, not however you feel like. If you bought the hardware, then modding it would not be illegal. it would be you modifying your own hardware for personal use. Instead, it's you modifying someone else's hardware to circumvent their protection methods. Think about it....
You don't own windows, you don't own office, you don't own your xbox, and you don't own the games you play on it.
Come on, consoles are supposed to be free of any sort of end-user maintenance. If MS wants to patch your Xbox, that's their prerogative. It's similar to Everquest's constant patching--you know they are maintaining the quality of the on-line experience.
--
hecubas
Hecubas
Either way, if you have an Xbox with a valid "bios" it will be udpated.
Remember, the BIOS is a boot loader, and its not necessarily the BIOS being udpated/changed. Sure they may be extending the bios functionality, but there are even PC's these days with agents to update your bios. As with the XBox you have to enable Xboxlive and agree to the TOS that you allow this. With your PC you have to enable live update and accept the TOS of the live updated service.
If you BUY a game and it updates your xbox you agreed to the terms of the game when you bought it.
Hell, most games for PC still require you to go update drivers, download directx or install some kind of patch for it to work correctly and alot will do that for you as well. Microsoft has just taken the guess work out of you having to fuss with it in the first place.
For those of you who don't OWN an xbox and just like to bitch about pointless things, the update actually adds some very nice features above and beyond what we dreamed of having with the 1st gen xbox.
Infact with the updates, the xbox has surpassed my pc in every aspect. Sure it isn't as much "Computing" power but it isn't a computer. Get that The xbox is NOT a computer it is a Video Game System . My xbox now has voice chat, and it is included with live, my xbox has superb online gaming, included with live. I pay a flat rate to get the features that are downloaded of which 99% of them are features XBOX users have requested
So please, if you hate microsoft we're all better off if you dont touch an xbox. You have your reasons whatever they are, and xbox owners have there reasons.
I like it, i wouldn't trade my xbox for anything else out there. I'm glad i don't have to manually install crap, i'm glad i just plug-n-play, i'm glad i get the new features that I request and that I participated in the beta testing of. I'm glad Microsoft has finally made a console that grows with the times and allows gamers to do what they wan't to do. Play GAMES
I didn't buy my xbox to run linux. Neither did the other 7-8 million owners out there.
I am sure it says somewhere that: MS owns this box, even though you paid money for it, so we can do whatever we want with it, and we know you agree of course, so we'll fine print this and put it somewhere in the middle of this long paragraph in very small, very fine print so you never get to read it because we know it's extremely boring.
The phaomnneil pweor of the hmuan mnid. Fcuknig amzanig eh!
Thankyou for that link to the Acts of Gord.
I spent hours reading through it tonight, sometimes in tears it was so funny.
Its good to see that there are other people our there that are tired putting up with stupidity as well.
I recommend everyone has a quick browse. Classic reading.
Microsoft shipped a software update that successfully patched a buffer overrun, with a net REDUCTION in vulnerabilities on a product.
I'm still in shock.
seven two six five
seven four six one seven
two six four two e
There is always this same post whenever Xbox is brought it up.
:( Boo Hoo Hoo, Halo was for us Macs only :( Boo Hoo Hoo, poor me, Evil Microsoft Boo Boo HOO"
"Bungie was for Mac!
Microsoft gave Bungie the time and resources to make the best console FPS ever. A truly awsome and artistic game. And Halo2 will be even better (Did ya see the preview movie? Holy Shit!)
I have a idea. Want to play Halo? Do you want to play Halo2 Online? Go buy an Xbox and play it. They don't care if you own a Mac or not.
Here's an idea: don't use Xbox Live. Without Live, you have nothing to worry about. Don't plug your Xbox into the internet and don't click on "Play Live" in any game menus. And if you want to play online, there are alternatives.
If playing online means that much to you, stop being so cheap and buy a modchip!
where the comment ends and sig begins
Working for the Wall Street Journal, I think that you should know better than this.
As you know, our country is in a recession. If we are ever to break out of it, we need consumers to put more money into the open market. You can't stimulate growth any other way.
A lot of people on this website are very against this company, and it is an easy way to get "karma" to post negative things about them, but Microsoft is one of the largest employers of skilled technical workers in the United States. Any proud American would want to foster that growth into creating more jobs stateside, especially as President Bush diverts more federal funds into foreign wars.
I appreciate your position from a technological viewpoint, but again, in order to strengthen the national economy - we need to make sure jobs stay in the US and are not outsourced to places where labor is cheaper. The way we do that is by supporting MS over Sony and Nintendo, which are Japanese companies, in the console gaming market.
Not to point out the obvious, but the average consumer buys an Xbox to PLAY GAMES ON IT. The Xbox is NOT their home computer. The Xbox is NOT storing personal information on it. The Xbox is a TOY. Its software being kept up to date through the Live network is KNOWN, and is a GREAT selling point for those that enjoy the Xbox.
And if you install Linux on it - your no longer playing games on it since it wouldn't work anymore for that - so why would you even have or be paying for the Live service?
Once again - "OMG the world is blowing up" - NO no it's not....
Ave Molech Setting
He's a retarded guy that sings crude repetitive lyrics over generic music from a cheap Casio keyboard.
Classic examples are "Birdman kicked my ass" and "Suck my Dog's dick". His music is generally listened to just for its campiness.
Beyond that, this is just the new variation of the classic "Stephen King is dead" troll.
Bear with me for a second. Why is "hacking" an piece of hardware I own bad? I know they sell it as a loss leader, but how much moral justification can they really get from that?
It's nothing but crumpled porno and Ayn Rand.
The Xbox contract totally forbids tinkering with the hardware or software included in the Xbox, so what we have right now are hackers (who are doing something clearly illegal since they didn't agree with the terms given to them) complaining about something that Microsoft has done that might also be illegal.
It's like having a street gangster complain to the police that the mafia makes it hard to run their buisness.
Wouldn't the obvious analogy be if some contractors working for a Toyota dealership came to your house early one Saturday morning when you're out, found your garage door conveniently unlocked, and opened it and applied the latest service packs to your Camry ?
Not only replacing that factory recall on the weak engine mount, but also conveniently restoring the stereo system to the factory-issue model (disposing of some dangerous after-market brand that you installed in violation of the EULA).
This happened to me last night before this story was posted. I bought an xbox and 007 to put linux on it and after an unannounced update. 007 Agent under fire WOULD REFUSE TO LOAD. Its a perfectly clean disc and now I can't play 007 or even do the 007 trick to get linux on my xbox...
The Government most certainly has eminent domain rights in the US. They could bulldoze your home, if they wanted to. Just ask anyone that lived in low income housing in New York City in the 1950s.
The perceived benefits of capitalism, innovation, competition, transparency, and choice, exist less and less.
I certainly agree that socialism has, at its root, the fundamental problem of the abuse of concrated power.
However the loss of rights under our system continues to grow and will eventually eclipse the loss of rights of a democratic socialist system. Big industries are merging to become bigger industries, then, buying the governments to make laws that protect their own existence, and using their network effects and intellectual property statutes to thwart competition - all of this regardless of economic efficiency.
This is my sig.
The ability to run compiled computer code
The real test to see if something is a PC is:
Unmodified, can I create an original program for the device or must I go through a third party?
The roots and premise of that test are as follows...Back in the day, Activision was founded to create software for Atari's PC's. The judge ruled that since these were PC's, Activision could do whatever they wanted and there was nothing Atari could do. Though not Activision's fault per se(Atari's really for failing to do anything), this eventually led to the crash of '83-'84. So Nintendo comes along with the NES (in the US) and decides that they are not selling a PC but a set top box that plays games. The box is proprietary and so it was ruled that Nintendo can keep its controls over the system (anti-trust aside, they could decide who could make games for the system, at what price, etc).
This tradition continues to this day. So basically, if it runs code like a PC, has parts like a PC, tastes and smells and sounds like a PC, but the maker puts restrictions in place and calls it something else...its that something else. In the case of the XBOX I think its called a "video game system."
who cares? hopefully they'll fuck up a patch, and lose customers.
i can see the impending fiasco now...
granted, with the xbox they have a standard platform to test patches on, but it would be hilarious."microsoft today rendered useless the xboxes of all of its xbox live customers via an unannounced, irreversable, mandatory patch that was downloaded automatically when users connected their xboxes to the internet... to obtain xbox service pack 1 which will make your hardware functional again, please call 1-800-UNFUCKME, or visit http://www.xboxlive.com..."
Beyond that, this is just the new variation of the classic "Stephen King is dead" troll.
.. except Wesley Willis really did die.
Everybody seems to always complain about Micro$oft when they have a bug in one of their products. They call them whatever bad name they can think of and curse the very existance of them. But when they actually fix somthing, there seem to be alot more people complaining about it than there should be. Im not saying that it is a good thing to go the route of automatic installs w/o user verificaion, hell thats one of the reasons that I dislike IE w/ default settings. I dont feel that bitching about what they do is the answer, but rather how they do it. Im sorry I'm doing the bitching now, but proposing solutions is better than picking out faults. It would be too easy to have encorperated better dashboard settings that could control automatic update features (much like thier OS's have).
My sausage tree didn't grow, does that make me a bad mommy?
I'm safe - I use ZoneAlarm/EvidenceEliminator - aren't I?;)
But what really disturbs me is the concept of patching the console itself. The console gaming industry is built on a model of consistency, very much different from the PC industry. A console purchased last week is nearly identical to one purchased two years ago. Any differences are in the hardware installed at the factory.
Now you've got patches being delivered over the network, which leads to different console configurations, which leads to gamers asking themselves, "Do I have DirectX 8.0 installed or is it 8.1 or 8.1a or 8.1b or even 9.0?"
We've all been witness to the horrendous patching mess that every software vendor on the face of the earth has contributed to. When you start patching consoles via software, you break that integral quality control. What happens when the update goes awry (suddent losss of power)? And when a new game comes out, will it still run on every XBox out there or will it require XBox v1.1.8.2a?
Great point
I you are able to hack your system, others might be able as well (but it is highly unlikely that this update would prevent that).
The font exploit, which was fixed, was related to installing Linux. There hasn't been any mention of fixing the original exploits in MechAssault and AUF that let you run Linux in the first place, so I imagine you could still run Linux by booting MechAssault/AUF first.
-insert a witty something-
If paid for a XBox you own it. The XBox is not leased.
Imagine if you brought a PC - with unusual BIOS then installed linux on it. The bios manufacturer then updates (without asking you) your PC so linux does not work.
Still happy ?
==========
Together, we will drive the rats from the tundra.
If MS can patch your Xbox remotely via their PhoneHome features, I wonder how long it will be before someone notices the open door?
I wonder if someone could setup their Modded Xbox as a Sacrificial Lamb. Then setup their sniffer and connect to Xbox live. After analyzing these packets,it may be possible for someone to develop a Virus/Worm that travels around looking to dump a corrupted update onto your Xbox to render it useless....
Image booting up your non modded Xbox to.....
Someone has Hexxed your Xbox......
SuperGlue
Duh.
I bought an X-Box when I was sure Microsoft was loosing money on the deal. I got Halo (linear crap), Jet Set Radio Future (linear fun), & some car racing game in one pack.
I already had a DVD player & a gamecube.
When I found out that the X-Box is a top of the line DVD player, able to handle a wide screen TV and Bollywood DVD's (my wife is Indian), I now use it exclusively as a DVD player, and play games on the gamecube.
I've personally watched farmers kicked off the farm they worked so a factory could be built in China, and it sure didn't seem like they were being compensated (I was living and working at a neighboring factory at the time). It was in one of the "special" industrial regions in southern China where Chinese citizens without the right papers to be there got beaten by the side of the road if they went there (got to watch that one, too).
And because I'm a part of a capitalistic system - my parting offer was legitimate and serious. If you really want full rights to do anything with capitalistic software, I'll be happy to write it if you pay me enough to make it worth my time.
If I write something on my own initiative, I can make the choice of whether to sell its usage to interested buyers under a license we both agree to, or release it as open source free for others to use.
I couldn't do that under communistic rule, and I'm damned happy to be in a capitalistic system. It's not perfect, there are obviously abuses, but it beats the hell out of the alternatives I've seen so far.
I write code.
.. finding the game you bought runs like a dog on your system, despite it meeting the minimum spec? The reason my X-Box gets more play than my PC is that if I put a game into my box, I know it's going to play at an acceptable frame rate. Working in tech support, I don't want to have to muck around out of hours to get a game running.
Nothing new. Microsoft has done this for years with MSNTv (WebTv). They torture their subscribers with "upgrades" and "updates" that change functionality and browser usage. Some "upgrades were so horrid that they effectively crippled the device and a further "upgrade" was necessary. A constant joke among subscribers is that MS uses MSNTv as a testing platform to devise new ways to torment their OS purchesers.
Oh, yes, MSNTv units are sold way below cost. The money is made up from subscription fees.
First off, I don't believe that socialism is the answer. My point was to make a joke based on the observation that the abuses of concentrated power that we criticize socialism for can also happen under capitalism. I don't think a massive bureacry is the answer, but I also see that unfettered capitalism cannot work completely either.
This is my sig.