Slashdot Mirror
Switching from Another Industry to Engineering/CS?
WomensHealth asks: "I am a physician, but contemplating a career change perhaps 5 to 10 years down the road. In addition to medicine, what I've always loved is computers and technology, and I think I have a pretty good appreciation for both. What tips could computer industry insiders offer to one who is willing to pursue an independent educational path towards a career in a Computer Science field? MIT's OpenCourseWare seems well put-together, though one can't get a degree using it. How can an old newcomer break into the industry?"
How can an old newcomer break into the industry?
I'd recommend this...
Zed's dead baby. Zed's dead.
1) Switch from Medicine to Computer Science
2) Move to India
3) ??
4) Profit!
- For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat
You might go into genetic research, although that will probably be sourced offshore, too.
"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers."
-- Pablo Picasso
Stay a doctor and help all the poor uninsured IT folks
I really hate to be so blunt - but where I'm from we're severely lacking Medical Doctors. Here in Ontario, we really need you people.
Please, stick with your current occupation. You're saving lives there, and I doubt you could say the same in an IT field.
.
I always thought doctors were supposed to be smart.
Unless you got stuck being an anusologist, stay with medicine.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
subject line says it all.
you might have better luck finding this sort of job or education in Bangalore, Madras, Dehli, or Bombay.
The cost of education/living will be much more economical for you. Plus this is where all the US companies are hiring these days!!!
Go down to your local Fry's and buy a nice shiny computer. Use the computer to visit the GNU website and take a look at the projects that look like they need some help. Download the code and start working on it using Cygwin tools or Linux, if you've installed it.
Forget about making money in the industry, you're much better off getting a degree in plumbing, the pay is better and the hours are better.
I have been pwned because my
From someone who has been in the industry for 10 years: the answer is...don't. This is a dead end field now, especially with competition from markets that can support low wages and people willing to give away their work for free.
It was once a good field to be in, but has now become so devalued that I cannot recommend it.
Go ahead and do it!! Instead of doing something like certification courses (CCNA, MSCE, etc.) that might or might not be accepted, try and get into a MS degree program somewhere. And to do something like this is definitely possible... from where I worked at a couple of years ago, I had one person in my group who went from being a heart surgeon to a software engineer and someone else who went from a city cop to a chip designer. Sure, its not easy but at the end of the day, you will have what counts.
It's too late for me! I for one am looking to be out of IT in 5yrs. Seriously, why throw away a medical education for an industry of questionable future and even more questionable ethics and morality? In my opinion, if you sold real estate like software is sold, ou would be in prison. If you sold used cars like software was sold, you would be in prison.
my $.02
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
If your training leads you to a career that can be done from offsite, that same carreer is in danger of being offshored.
There is no business difference between someone who telecommutes from India or Indiana.
comment directly in my journal
1. Learn VB (or similar)
2. Get a job for $30,000 a year
3. Lose your job.
4. Retrain as a bartender or waiter
The job market in tech is dying and is predicted to continue to deteriorate over the next 10-15 years in the US. The medical world is predicted to grow by leaps and bounds. Even LPNs make more money than most techies at this point. Medical salaries are expected to rise. Stay in medicine where the baby boomers are ending up needing attention. Play with computers on the side. Maybe do your own software on the side. You'll be much happier and wealthier than if you jump into this mess.
Were you dropped on your head as a child?
This is the first time I've seen a TROLL ARTICLE!
- For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat
learn hindi.
Get to like curry.
Convert to Hindu.
If you want to do some good, switch to politics instead and run for national office then pass laws restricting outsourcing.
Let's get real. Why should companies like IBM and HP be allowed to bid on government contracts when they have a large number of their workforce in IT sweatshops overseas?
Honestly? Don't do it! I've been doing software for 15 years, and the industry has changed alot, and not for the better. Jobs are going overseas, and software just isn't the cool niche thing it used to be. I can't wait to get out of the industry, I just haven't found another gig that pays as well.
Just my opinion, YMMV.
This post is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 License.
I think you can "break into" the computer field at any age. Many of the skills you learned in your previous career could carry over. What may throw you for a loop is the constant change, don't get to comfortable and be prepared. Midlevel management and IT planning areas are still viable, make sure you don't pick anything that can be commoditized like programming, support, operations, etc. You may want to look into medical IT companies that work with nano tech or DNA type of work. I think anyone with the desire can be successful in any endeavor.
Medical Doctor huh? ...But can you run Linux?
Creative Demolition
This question is insulting.
How would you feel if you got the following question from a patient?
I am a computer scientist, but contemplating a career change perhaps 5 to 10 years down the road. In addition to computers, what I've always loved is anatomy and biology, and I think I have a pretty good appreciation for both. What tips could medical industry insiders offer to one who is willing to pursue an independent educational path towards a career in a Medical field? I'd like to start operating on people right away; Gray's Anatomy seems like a good guide, though I apparently can't get a license by reading it. How can an old newcomer break into the industry?
and taking up a career in business or bio-tech. I am very worried about current trends with CS and IT jobs moving overseas. I do not see any relief from this trend, and I would not recommend jumping into this industry, unless you plan on working with or for government.
Get into a field where your existing skills are rare and useful. Clinic Management software? Pharmaceutical software? Something where your existing skills let you understand the needs of customers, or where you can communicate well with customers - and branch out from there.
I keep seeing the above list each day, under different subjects. If you have nothing to tell, don't post anything please.
If you are looking medium term (5-10 years), spend that time learning on your own (play with other people's code, copy small projects just to understand how they are done) -- then leverage what you already know about your own industry. Instead of getting out of medicine all together, take advantage of it -- where could you improve the process with some software? And concentrate on that.
You probably already have some contacts / potential customers.
I switched from molecular bio to software development, but I did so starting in 1997. First as a tech writer, then I taught myself programming - although I always had an interest while in high school. A few lucky breaks, desperate interviewers willing to take a chance, and now I do dev work full time.
I think it was easier when I did it, especially with how low hiring standards were during the dotcom rush. Now you'd face a lot more competition, not just other job candidates, but the whole outsourcing thing as well.
As an MD, I imagine you could probably set your own work schedule - so I would make the transition slowly until you get to the point where you can sustain yourself. As for training, others here can offer better advice - I always have been and always will be one of those who just teaches himself.
I might caution, the job market for IT / CIS is quite different from MD. First thought: nano/bio-tech. Of course, if job markets don't mean much, by all means study, code, research, produce, and publish open source docs on nano/bio-tech. I would guess that in the time frame you mentioned (5-10 years), that is where all the action is going to be.
It's taken me 15 years to realise this though - mind you there are no jobs in that industry either.
Maybe I can sell myself to medical research.
I suggest you could develop management software for your fellow physicians...
Be it Free, you could consult and install it.
But I really think it's a mistake to drop a job which is so socially interactive in order to taste the infinite pain of error checking and regression test all alone in a computer room.
Trolling using another account since 2005.
I can't imagine going from something like medicine where you've got 8-10 years of college invested PLUS residency, into IT. Sure you could do it, and there are jobs that would pay you comparably, but the IT field is so unstable right now that it doesn't seem terribly wise.
Of course the flip side is that if all medicine gets under govermental control you may be in a much less lucrative job than you are right now. I think that if you're serious you should look at the programming/CS degree while you're practicing medicine and then apply both specialties by developing applications for the medical field. It's specialty work like that, where it takes somebody with inside knowledge to really know what is going on with the end result and not just the programming, that will be more difficult to outsource. Also the potential for true innovation from somebody within the medical field attacking programming is enough that you might secure yourself a position with a large company.
It would be a gamble any way you look at it. If you're really into it then find an online part-time CS program and enroll. Take a few classes over the course of many years. It will take you much longer to get the degree due to the changing nature of CS degree requirements, BUT... you'll know better by the end if you really want to leave medicine AND you'll still have the knowledge to grow from later.
CharlesP
wordtrip.com
Also... being a doctor for 10 years should give you the chance to make plenty of friends in high places. On a scale of 1 through 10, if expertise gets a 10 for importance, contacts should take a 9.9.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
I'd suggest sticking with your day job. CIS isn't all it was back in the 90's when funds were bottomless and the likes of you could get a job as a small time tech support phone operator at a local ISP and be the top dog in a major corporation within 5 years.
How can an old newcomer break into the industry?
Become the Michael Dell of bioinformatics.. forget joining the industry, build something in your garage. The industry sucks. A lot of people who've worked their asses off becoming technically proficient are getting a sharp stick in the eye from managers who know dick about craft or methodology. The game for many engineers has become how to stay employed, not how to build and maintain good things.
Don't listen to these guys, IT IS the future there just still stuck in the stone age of computing and don't know how to level there arcaic skills with todays global economy. Outsourcing was bound to happen to the IT field, as it does to all portions of the job sector. Get a degree. I for one am going the acedemic route and getting my PhD in Computer Science, and possably Computer Engeenering as well. Don't listen to the old has beens who post here at /. there time is over. If they do not evolve, then they will die. If you love computers, and want to make that your living then DO IT and don't let anybody stop you!
...so I suspect a beginner will find it tough going as well.
(I know almost a dozen good programmers with 10 or more years of experience who have been looking for work for six months or more, some of them for well over a year).
If you really want to do it, go for it. It's a lot better to work in the computer field because you actually love doing it than because you're simply in it for the money.
Keep in mind, though, that right now things in the technology world are about as tight as I've seen them in my 15-year career, at least as far as the job market goes. I've been looking for work (again) for seven months myself.
Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
First, determine exactly what you want to do. What do you like doing? Programming? Helping friends fix their boxes? Graphic design / flash?
Then, start doing things just for fun. Put together some strange network at home. Volounteer for an OSS project. And do heaps of reading.
Then, its a matter of just keeping on trying. As you have another profession, keep doing that until an opportunity presents itself. When it does, take it, even if its short term. Once the contract runs out, revert back to what you were doing until another opportunity opens.
University degrees really dont matter unless you want to get into research. In the current climate its more about planning, adaptability and determination...and the BIG one...how well you can market yourself and your skills. A lot of people will tell you that its impossible to find a job in IT atm...total BS. Ive just moved back in after a couple of years moving in and out of the industry. Its all about attitude.
I am Monkey, the Great Sage, equal of heaven!
Know why you need doctors? Because the Canadian government has a monopoly. Everyone gets healthcare, the same crummy kind. Now take a number and get back in line for the ER.
That said, fly to india and become an Indian citizen. That is the only reasonable way to get a CS job.
The one advantage that you do have is in-depth knowledge about a potentially lucrative customer niche: medicine. Consider leveraging that to specify, maybe even design software and systems to help medical people.
You might be able to code up some demos and do some usability testing, but (IMHO) you ought to resist the tempation to try to implement production systems. Quality is important, and experienced developers automatically deal with issues that you wouldn't even think of for years to come. Hire quality people and let them make you rich!
Something about this questions smells bad, like a pool of stale water left in the corner of the room.
If you were a good physician you would not need another career as you would be rich already...
If you were a bad physician, then a load of CS geeks won't want you...
If it is a hobby you want, you don't need any qualifications
I have to ask...can I have your M.D.?
"There is no time, sir, at which ties do not matter," Jeeves, (Jeeves and the Impending Doom)
As a Canadian citizen and US greencard holder, I can say that I've not noticed any inferiority that you appear to be implying in Canadian healthcare. In fact, I've been treated immediately at an ER in Toronto for a minor injury that would have cost me an entire day at Yale New Haven.
I hate to mention politics, but it has allot to do with the current problem.
I voted for Bush, but he has done nothing for the middle class workers losing jobs to outsourcing sweatshops overseas.
This is the reason why Bush will not be reelected.
Being a physician sounds great to me. I'll teach you some coding skills if you teach me open heart surgery.
How about moving away from it? Thats what i want to know...
Do what I'm doing -- pick a University near you, find the prerequisites for getting into the M.S. in CS program, take those classes, and then apply to the M.S. program.
Or, if you just want to be a programmer, get a compiler for whatever buzzword language you want. Write lots of programs, and at some point start calling yourself a programmer.
You have to admit that a lot of people can be pretty talented and successful with computers while not having studied CS. On the other hand, unless you are in an emergency situation or not the U.S., it is illegal to practice medicine without some amount of education and licenses.
His question is realistic in a way that yours is not.
Looking for ethics in capitalism is laudable, but unrealistic. Likewise, looking for a work ethic in socialism or communism is laudable, but unrealistic.
It's business, and ethics have very little to do with it aside from marketing BS. Real estate is is sold like software is sold - have you ever seen a model home? Used cars are sold everyday in the same way.
The point is, good luck finding a business sector that isn't filled with scumbags. Short of going into a monastery, the second best thing is to be an example of the ethics and morality that you hold up. And when you see someone abusing those ethics and morality, do what you can to push them out. That's not unethical - it's called separating the wheat from the chaff.
Try a medical informatics program. Google for "medical informatics program", and you'll get a ton of hits. Combines the medical degree and IT, and hard to outsource
unless you absolutely hate medicine, make computers your avocation. i am a teacher. i have years of experience with LAMP, linux, java, python, perl, etc. friends and colleagues ask all the time when i'm leaving. i'm not. besides the wife and three kids, i have too much wrapped up in teaching. nobody prevents me from doing things on the side, as well as lots of side projects.
we live in this fantasy world today, where we're supposed to have instant gratifiaction, immediate success, and total happiness. it just ain't the real world. we have lost all perspective as a society. we forgot that once, people actually had to work, and somtimes, had to learn to deal with things. i see it all the time with students and parents. their kid isn't gedtting an A, so it must be me, or they're special ed, or this or that. hell, maybe they're not an A student. if there is some compelling reason to leave the medical profession, then fine. but first ask (or arsk if your emeril) yourself why you want to change. cause you want to? better come up with a better reason.
just my dos centavos.
My problem? I was perfectly gruntled, until some numbnuts came by and dissed me.
BioTech! Your half way there.
How can an old newcomer break into the industry?
It seems plenty of other slashdotters have beat me to the "Move to India" suggestion.
But realistically, the best way to get into the computer/tech industry is to get into one of the high profit vertical markets. Great examples of these are Enterprise Storage (IBM, EMC, HP, Sun, Hitachi), Supercomputing (HP, IBM, SGI), maybe even VOIP or biometric security. Additionally, consulting services which are wrapped around the aforementioned markets are particularly lucrative.
You basically want to avoid like the plague any job which can be easily outsourced to India or another cheap labor market. Programmers, Call center workers, WWW operations are a few examples.
Also, dime-a-dozen certifications like MCSE and MCP should be avoided as they are usually costly for you to get (if you are paying for them yourself) but provide little or no real world benefit to you.
Just my two cents.
I'd rather be a conservative nutjob than a liberal with no nuts and no job.
One of my clients is a pharmacist and has an MBA. He does consulting for the pharmacutical industry and makes a lot of money.
I would suggest that you get an MBA and do consulting for medical related companies. You can combine this with IT by helping companies use technolgoy to solve business problems that you, as an MD, can relate to
Since your are considering a career change, it is probably safe to assume that doctoring isn't doing it for you anymore. By combining what you already know with what you are interested in, you can position yourself to make a lot of money.
It's not possible to be talented and successful without a lot of hard work and study, regardless of licensing. Asking "How can I take the shortcut route to being good at thie profession?" is insulting.
Then you must mean... ...
1)
2) Move BACK to India.
...
I started in the industry when DOS was still the OS of choice (and Windows 286 was a brand new MS product). The money used to be good, but after a 45% drop in pay (while house prices here have increased 500%), it sucks. From experience, all you will do is destroy the fun of a good hobby. For the majority of IT workers, the hours are long, the pressure is high and the rewards suck ass.
But if you're determined to do this, do it with something you know and in a way that will inspire you. I left the IT industry for 12 months and tried to get work in the environment. I failed dismally (no degree, no experience). But by demonstrating where my passion lay I was employed by a company that writes systems for zoos, museums and aquariums. The pay still sucks, the work is hard, but I get to do research and love seeing the difference my software makes when I go onsite at zoos, museums and aquariums all over the world.
So if you're absolutely determined to do this, find a niche in the medical industry, create a product (preferably paying other people to write it) to fill that niche and sell it. Then you get to keep your profession as a doctor, contribute to people in your own field (including yourself and your patients) and dabble in IT.
To know that you know what you know, and that you do not know what you do not know, that is true wisdom. --Scooby Doo
One popular way for MDs to break into the industry is to go to related fields where medical knowledge is being used in the context of IT, such as Medical Informatics. For example, at the Yale Center for Medical Informatics the majority of faculty and scientists hold MDs or are MD/Ph.Ds. You don't need to obtain a degree per se; as long as you can show that you know what-you-are-doing(tm). Do a post-doc at an informatics department. Talking to the IT people at your hospital can help. Start playing more with computer hardware and programming languages. Implement and deploy IT solutions that assist in your medical care. Your colleagues having trouble with their nifty new handhelds? Take a look at them over the weekend. Not happy with your new-fangled patient tracking system? Talk to the developer and analyze the database.
There are tons and tons of existing resources available both in print and online that you can use to learn the stuff you need. An MD is already a terminal degree; unless you are looking for academic/faculty computer science positions, it is not entirely necessary to have to go to school for IT at this time.
As far as the market is concerned, there is always interest in people who possess both a human-oriented and computer-oriented skillset; especially for places that are full of one-kind-but-not-the-other. (Like in a setting where everyone is a physician but they don't know IT, or a group of IT people who want someone who understands the biomed field).
it will be interesting to see if, in 10 years, this is going to be a compelling industry to enter.
we'll assume you are smart though. a smart person with a broad perspective will probably be able to find a decent job in this industry for the forseeable future.
Hopefully you are planning on leaving medicine with your loans payed off and some substantial assets (home paid for, a good nest-egg). If you are already over those humps, then flat or sinking IT salaries won't hurt you like its hurting some of the people in this industry now.
I think you'll be throwing away a valuable resource, your knowledge of medicine, if you jump ships. I reckon if you combine it with computer programming skills you'd be in a position to capitalize on a niche market somewhere in the health field. A lot of developers/programmers, myself included, don't have knowledge of other problem domains, which limits their ability to understand how to apply IT solutions to areas that don't have IT applied already. Your knowledge of medicine is a valuable resource and you'll be beter of combining it with computer programming skills rather than throwing it away.
Outsourcing happens anywhere, but if you look at the trend right now, there's still calls for tons and tons of software engineers (monster.com always has tons of listing). There are 2 problem, outsourcing and lack of entry level jobs. The outsourcing of jobs to India, but the percentage isn't that huge (1 out of 10 if I remember the article posted over in the Developers section earlier this week). The other part is the entry level jobs problem, you don't see much calling for those, which could affect you if you decide to get your degree in CS,CIS,etc. I will be graduating next spring with a BS in CS, and I don't have any regrets...yet, until I try and find an entry level job :) (and I'm not an International Student for those who think I might be biasing this discussion on that).
Add my voice to the others. I got my CS degree in 1977, and felt it would be good for life. It was good through the year 2000, and I'm lucky to have a local govermnent job (in CS) now after 2 years of looking again. The future is not here any more.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
As a practicing physician, you are guaranteed a fresh supply of sick people that need to be treated, and hospitals and HMOs can't go and "outsource" their physicians abroad.
There's plenty of room for entrepeneurs that develop something truly original as well as professional researchers in the field. However, your post is akin to saying, "I'm a physician, and I'd like to pursue a career change into construction in 5-10 years." I just don't get the motivation or what you're hoping to get out of such a radical career change into a field that's not that great.
...I'd recommend spending a lot of time programming and teaching yourself some really new and really sought after technology. Currently, I'd recommend Microsoft .Net.
Unfortunately I can't tell you what will be hot 5-10 years down the road.
Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
Can't be outsourced, and more than 300 have been killed already so there are plenty of openings.
I think it's funny how the story creator, "Dr craig hall" (check out the email address) has a username called "Women's Health!"
Likely he's an ob/gyn (or possibly just weird), but it's still funny...
These folks need help. And they are much nicer and far more competent than any EMR vendors I've run across. Take a couple of weeks off, and work on this project for 60 hours per week. See if you still like it.
And I can't blame you for bailing on medicine. Things are going to get much rougher in the industry before they get better.
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
You hear people all the time saying things like,
"How would I get into the computer industry? I'd like to learn how to fix computers for a living."
But you rarely hear people asking doctors, "How would I become a doctor? I'd like to learn how to deliver babies for a living."
Does it make you think that maybe we've picked a more "simple" profession?
Saskboy's blog is good. 9 out of 10 dentists agree.
If you're still intent on doing this, then I would do this- get involved at MIT's media lab and do something where you leverage your medical skills and knowledge.... they have a variety fo cutting edge, super super cool and socially relevant projects and of course they are always looking for new ideas..
In fact, I would say that might be perfect for you. The coolest thing in computing is NOT Linux of open source or any of that. The coolest thing in programming is the intersection between programming and materials, both synthetic and biologically based or inspired...
The industry will NOT employ you. You have to be an entrepeneur...the industry relaly is destroying all American programmers... but that is another subject...
MIT media lab.. you GO GIRL!
I'm all for it. The typical slashdotter probably wouldn't be though. But bear in mind that many of the slashdot crowd are IT professionals, a single occupation within a greater sphere that has seen significant job losses. The sad reality of computers these days is that if you want to do something with computers, the best way to get a job is to know something about what you're doing with them.. I believe this was said by Joel of JoelOnSoftware or some such semiluminary.
Well, as a physician, you've got some specialized knowledge that will come in handy from time to time. I'm sure you've heard plenty about biotech. I've seen some of these DNA "computers" and chips, and it seems very wasteful. Grow specimen, extract and treat dna, splash on a grid with transverse dna's and call it a computation. Then record the data and throw it away. This is just one example of the biotech oddities that seperate the field from your average HTTP server. There's all sorts of places to work. Merck, Eli Lilly, etc. Having a MD with some working knowledge of computer programming will get you further than having a degree in computer programming and a working knowledge of human physiology.
Your best bet is to start writing programs for yourself, and maybe design a few gui tools to put on top of them. Basically build a working portfolio that demonstrates you can write in perl, SQL or whatever, then apply. Or maybe you will find that a few of your own programs are marketable to your friends. I hear many doctors enjoy PDAs and related software. If your a general practicioner, you might try thinking about what sort of software would make your practice faster, more reliable or more cost effective. By all means, read up on HIPAA and the sorts of laws regulating how software should treat patient data. Maybe buy a pda and a wireless reciever and learn how to interface software from the pda to a database over the wireless in a safe, secure manner.
Learning to program is not that difficult. Some languages make it more obscure than others, and some languages are built for more specific domains than others, but here at KSU we only really have three "how to program" type classes of varying difficulty before you begin to learn how to specify WHAT you should program, be it a database, an operating system or a 3d renderer.
I Browse at +4 Flamebait
Open Source Sysadmin
Next, get your feet wet by playing with a different OS or two. Install them, read up on them, tinker. Tinker with different computer components, too. Once you've done that for a while, get some more formal training. Take a programming class at the local college, or if you're ultra-disciplined and already have a bit of background, you could try teaching yourself from a book.
By this point you should be getting an idea what you like, what you don't like, and what you'd like to learn more about. Follow that. Whether you go for a degree or not will depend somewhat on what exactly you want to do in the IT field.
Even if you eventually decide to stay in medicine (or jump to something completely different), no knowledge is ever wasted. Good luck!
Most of the replies on this page are saying to stay away from IT. I sort of expected that, but not quite to this degree, which leads me to ask -- what should I do? I'm in my third year of college (in Ohio) majoring in computer science. I chose the major because I really love working with computers, and I've certainly never had wild dreams of making millions of dollars overnight; however, I've been closely following the discussions on offshoring here on Slashdot for a while, and I'm wondering if I should switch to a different field while I can. I've had internships in the electrical utility field, so maybe there's something there. Anyway, I'd appreciate some advice from those of you in the business. Is there a decent future in IT for a current college student? If so, what would be a good area to specialize in?
I would recommend becoming an airport skycap, a washed-up athlete, or possibly the CEO of a poorly performing US company. That's where the money is these days.
Have a look.
I'd rather be a conservative nutjob than a liberal with no nuts and no job.
1 Lakh = 100,000. India graduates 250,000 new doctors per year. We have a total of six million medical practitioners in the United States--and that includes everything from Dental Hygenists to Neurosurgeons. How many people think India isn't going to figure this one out?
The unfortunate truth is, there is very little that cannot be automated or outsourced. Perhaps you could migrate to a career in Funeral Science or tax law, although I'm sure someone will manage to figure out how to offshore those too.
I'd recommend taking your 401k and buying a self-sufficient farm in the middle of Montana. I wish I was kidding.
Yup, intelligent design is *obvious*, but here's the kicker: the "designer" loves to inform his creation about the nature of his design. Imagine being in what the poet Rumi called "a constant conversation with God". This is not just possible, but is actually designed into the system. There is a great deal of personal soul-cleaning that must go on before the conversation is possible, but it's worth the effort (so far, at least, for me). If you are really interested, just reply; if not, peace be with you!
-bmac
www.mihr.com: for *all* the answers
1. Learn to program
2. ?? (*see below)
3. Profit!
*In your profession, you probably can find a need that because you've worked in the trenches you can fill better then any programmer could. Programming is not something you can learn overnight, but is more like a talent, like playing the piano. Figure out the niche that you can fill, and make a program to handle it. Make it open source (GPL) and start using it. Talk it up among your doctor friends and see if they are interested. Others may join in, and start asking for changes that you haven't anticipated. At this point you can start charging for enhancements. Since you are the expert in this program you are the one contacted. Get some rightups in medical journels and you are on your programming way.
Take my CS Degree, and I'll keep your MD
FROM YOUR OWN WEB PAGE: "Although I trace my roots to the town of Rajkot in Gujarat, India, I was born in the city of Calcutta, India..."
I was going to say it as a joke, but apparently, it is quite real for you. You're from India! So it makes sense that someone you know went from a city cop to a chip designer, doesn't it?
This isn't the advice our American friend should follow. Unless he enjoys $15k/year.
A computer without Microsoft is like ice cream without ketchup.
Hay, don't even think about it, you'll never get a job here. (If you plan to move to india, it is a different story though)
I'm a 30 year old IT consultant and software business owner; I plan on getting into medecine in 10 years or so. I'm not sure that pertains to my advice, but it's interesting.
Anyway, I suggest you start now by tinkering with what should be familiar to you -- medical industry software and computer systems. If your professed love for computers and technology is genuine, you should have no problem fascinating yourself by tinkering (read hacking) with the computers and technology you use around the office/hospital. <rant>I say this beacuse if you don't love it enough to wanna hack any and every terminal in a hospital you can get your geeky little paws on, then you shouldn't go into the field. Really, there are already enough people in the industry who are "certified" and just there for the money...and we're flooded with those types (to the point that they're cheaper to buy in India).</rant> Okay.
But if you're the kind of guy who I believe you are, I'm sure you'll be fine. Start off small. Assuming you have a private practice, you can set up a small (at least 2 machine) network for handling something simple, like patient appointments. You could have a Linux box in the corner running Apache, PHP, and either mySQL or PostgreSQL and you could have a client machine for the receptionist that uses a web interface to the linux box to schedule patient appointments and other calendar stuff that could be stored in the database and dynamically displayed on your tiny intranet. It's a good start and teaches you PHP, Linux basics, web development and rudimentary programming skills.
Maybe you're already past that level. Maybe you've already done all of that and included a cron job that automatically calls patients 3 days ahead of time with a recorded reminder of an upcoming appointment. In that case, you're well on your way and you can follow the same form for my suggestion -- <corporateSpeak>take it to the next level</corporateSpeak>. Write a shareware/freeware app for your less technically inclined doctor friends. Get some friends together and put together an open source content management system that's HIPPA compliant for hospitals to use; the software is free, but your company could offer training and support.
That is all.
10 Take a programming night course from your local university. These are usualy filled with continuing ed students, so the instructors are more patient.
20 If you like it take the second semester version.
Else GOTO 50
30 If you survived take the course "Algorithm Analysis"
Else GOTO 50
40 If you survied start doing programming projects in your spare time. Programming for fun is the best way to learn. You are on your way. DONE
Else GOTO 50
50 Computer science is not for you.
bash-2.04$
bash-2.04$yes "Don't you hate dialup connections?"| write USERNAME
An understanding of computers on it's own is worthless. It is the understanding of computers and how to make use of them to DO SOMETHING USEFUL that is the rare skill. This is what the readers of Slashdot don't understand.
If you have a knowledge of Medicine and Computers, then you use the COMBINED knowledge to advance the state of the tools that doctors use. If you have a knowledge of physics and computers, you help design models of how the universe works. If you have a knowledge of how accounting works, then you design software that helps bring Enron to it's knees. The point in this is that CS and IT is WORTHLESS unless you understand what the technology is used for, and as such, in the CS field you have as much value if not more than you did in you own field. This is because you UNDERSTAND the field you could help. The appropriate area of work is called "product management."
There is an old phrase: If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach a man how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime. This is the way with computers--if you have the knowledge of how things SHOULD be done, and help make that a reality, you solve the problem for a lifetime for everybody involved.
People like you ARE the ones making progress in the use of computers, not those that graduate in CS. Why? Because you help embody the knowledge of what you have learned into the systems that will be used in the future.
Erik
IT is leaps and bounds above other industries precisely because it is hard to define.
A software sales critter essentially sells ideas and unmeasurable claims. A product which not only does not exist, but also has not been designed!
They promise the V8, 4 wheel drive, A/C, automatic transmission etc. for $20000 and deliver a POS (such as a Yugo as an example of a small cheaply built car) for $40000, and defective to boot. In real estate you can go out and look at the lot, the nieghborhood and the building plan and decide if that is what you want.
The ephemeral nature of software means that any charlatan or con artist can have a field day. And then charge outragous sums for bug fixes called upgrades. Which is one reason I am getting out, I no longer want to be associated with such practices, which are accepted as the norm.
Not all capitalism is immoral and/or unethical, just as not all socialists are lazy. It is just that IT is the worst I have found to date, and I see no good way to improve the situation.
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
I think its better you try conventiona majors like electrical engineering or chemical engineering. chemical engineering on average gives the most start salary. oh ya, I know someone who makes 110 grand from his SWA airline job (aviation engineering). of course there is a chance to make that much or more with CS, but I think its overflooded right now. and by comparison, I think its sort of new and hyped major that will bust in 20+ years (remember those boom & bust cycles ?)
-------
FM Clan
If you enjoy computers then play with them. You will lose your joy if you become a professional. I like eating ice cream but I don't think I'd enjoy eating ice cream if I worked in an ice cream factory.
This business is harsh. I don't know what medicine is like but the IT industry is not pleasent anymore. It was at one time when the field was filled with brilliant innovators but now it's just shit.
Finally any doctor I know drives a nicer car, has a better house and a better looking wife then any computer professional I know.
Don't do it, you'll regret it later.
War is necrophilia.
I know I'm going to make some enemies with this post, but I seriously urge you all, who think that it's bad that jobs are going to India, to consider the benefits of offshoring IT jobs.
By having cheaper labor do the same work and produce equally good or better products and services is a good thing. Remember your college economics class? Comparative Advantange? It's important for a nation's economy to do what it does best. Just as the poster asked whether or not she should get into the computer science field, I would say, if you like it and you think you will be better at it than medicine, then by all means, go for it.
By having people do what they do best, it allows for specializiation and the way corporations work the way they do today. Specialization allows more output from the same input by increasing the productivity of workers. Similarly, specialization applies to the global level and when nations specialize in one service or good, that is better for the entire global economy. Just think back to the 70s and 80s when the auto industry was screaming bloody murder over the import of cheaper and better made Japanese cars. Americans learned to respond to that. Similarly, the currently shrinking job market in the IT field is not something to be afraid of. There are plenty of problems that require solving in the technological sciences involving computers that currently displaced employees can help solve and this is an overall benefit to global society. Yes, there will be a short-run hard hit to people at home, but allowing free trade is a good thing. And in this case, it's the free trade of jobs in the computer industry. But remember, in the long run, it's in the best interest of everyone.
The Electronic Medical Records (EMR) field is booming now, and it is an excellent way to merge IT/CS skills and medical knowledge. Most of the EMR products are shoddy at best, and there is a lot of money to be made in picking up the pieces of failed EMR installations at hospitals and practices.
Why not try your hand at biomedical engineering. It would may work well you your existing experience in medicine, and there is probably a software side to it if you insist on working with computers.
"I have a porkchop, you have a porkchop. I have a veal, you have a veal".
At first, I would just lurk in discussion forums, making notes and performing statistical evaluations of the linguistic nuances of every vi versus emacs argument (did you know that the term 'assfucker' is the most commonly used word in these discussions?). I even began experimenting with my own Debian Linux server at home to get a feel for what it was like to be part of the community I was studying. One thing lead to another, and pretty soon I had a small collection of Debian boxes at home, and drawing on my high-school knowledge of LOGO, I quickly taught myself to write a rudimentary web server which delivered web pages to the browser via a LOGO-scripting plugin, with all the HTML page rendering commands faithfully reproduced in LOGO statements. Full CSS support and JavaScript was a hurdle let me tell you, but 520,000 lines of LOGO later and it was complete. But I needed a way to easily deliver my new creation to my users. One of my prime research forums were the Debian support forums. I asked around there for advice. Apt-get was the answer. It struck me like a FreeBSD CD-ROM hurled across a room by an angry OSNews reviewer trying to change the desktop colors in KDE. I quit my PhD that day, and concentrated on improving apt-get. It has been the singular focus of mu life since that day
To get back to the point, I'm now a well respected member of the open source community, and there are plenty of businesses out there using my code. When a company relies on your code, they know you're going to be a good hire. That was how I got my foot in the door in the IT industry. Now the Fortune 500 come to my door. I'm even thinking of adapting apt-get to be the front end for a new jobs database which matches up people fresh into the IT industry from other areas with prospective employers.
apt-get install you-too-can-be-a-crossover-success-in-IT!!!
With A Fat Paycheck Comes Fat Responsibility
If you are interested in Programming then these are a great place to start:
How to Think Like a Computer Scientist: Learning with Python
How to Think Like a Computer Scientist: Java
PDF's plus Logo and C++ here: Open Book Project
More Java, C++
I agree with the above posts, if you want to code or you can project manage, get involved with an open source project and don't quit your day job until you have an established portfolio of projects.
Build a Linux box from scratch, and know it inside and out. Play games on it, run benchmarks with it using beta kernels. Backport something to Debian
All that said, I'm a techie whose thought about being a doctor or lawyer. Maybe we should swap stories and frustrations. The grass is always greener... HTH, Bod
"I say we take off, nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."
One thing that seems to leap out at me is software to manage a medical practice - if you were to learn to program on your own time (via books, online material like Open Courseware, and perhaps working on some Open Source projects), you could probably develop a good system for a doctor's office to track patient records, appointments, and such - I have talked to doctors and their receptionists, and something like this is needed in a lot of practices.
Although there is certainly competition in this arena, you already have contacts in the medical field, and since there isn't a big Microsoft-like giant in the field (to my knowledge), you would stand a decent chance just starting your own business to sell your software. If it's successful, then great, otherwise, you've still got that MD to fall back on ;).
Remember, you'll do best working at what you know. Having worked in medicine, you probably know what doctors want to see in a piece of software better than a developer who just decided that medical office software was a good idea and put out his or her idea of what doctors want to see.
Of course, this is all just off the top of my head. There may be fierce competition in the medical software business - I don't know the details of the market. However, if I were you, I would be looking into ways to turn the years spent in medical school and practice into an asset rather than a liability.
That's it. I'm no longer part of Team Sanity.
...or don't bother. I hate seeing people who got their degrees but didn't seem to learn anything from them. Or people that don't seem to care about software quality, yet are paid to write code that other people must go and fix. If I was in a management position, I would fire the people at my job that are currently not excellent. (instead, I'm stuck working with them)
Also, "computer science is as much about computers as astronomy is about telescopes" (or something like that) - Edsger W. Dijkstra.
As a physician, you have a perspective that no other IT specialist has. Most of the phsysicians I know are NOT tech savvy. Consequently, there probably is a niche that is being neglected and can only be filled by someone who is both a physician and tech savvy.
.
For instance, I have noticed that the medical profession appears to be pretty stuck on proprietary technologies. Why don't you study all the current open source tools that exist for this industry. Pick a couple that seem the best. Play with them, master them. You like doing this stuff, right? In 5 to 10 years you could learn enough to be one of the primary developers for these projects. Then you can start approaching fellow physicians about this cool setup that you have that is free. Offer to set them up if they pay a consulting fee. .
IT is not like becoming a doctor or accountant. Usually, if you become certified it is either for something high paying but risky (company could change vendors) or something low paying but stable (MSCE). Consultants utilizing open source software appear to get the best of both worlds.
Anyway, I am an accountant who is interested in computers and this is my strategy. I haven't started my own busines yet, but I have increased my productivity by learning some programming (Perl). Playing around with Open Source software is the cheapest hobby I have ever had, makes me forget that I am a worthless pion, and increases the quality of my life.
Perhaps I will never get my own consulting business, but I will more likely keep my job from being outsourced to some fresh Indian CPA when I can also maintain the company's accounting database and create customized auditing programs. I believe that one day every "professional" will know how to code, but I don't intend to wait around for others to catch up.
Study often, study hard.
Sdelat' Ameriku velikoy Snova!
I am an American medical student with several engineering friendss (pre-meds and engineers have lots in common at the undergrad level). When we contemplated the same question, we devised this: if you want to combine the two fields, please consider prosthetics research. Recent advances in neuroscience, materials science and computer technologies are making this field an up-and-comer over the next two decades.
As long as there is a Second Amendment, there will always be a First Amendment.
Rather than completely changing gears, why don't you change focus in something you already know? I worked in a hospital IT department for over 2 years, and several, perhaps 25%, of my co-workers had transferred to IT from clinical professions. We had nurses, a respritory therapist, and a lab tech to name a few. They had no formal education in the CS/IS field, but did have an inside track due to their prior experience in the industry.
Become a medical expert resource for medical software companies. They are full of programmers with no medical knowledge who need medical experts on staff to, essentially, write specifications and perform medical validation.
I can tell you it isn't the easiest road and requires a bit of luck, but you can do it. I did it. I left medical school after 2 1/2 years because I realized that I was miserable and bitter and plain didn't enjoy it. It was the best decision of my life and now I get up every morning and enjoy going to work. That is a wonderful feeling. I am currently a software developer for an academic institution in the NE. I primarily code. Am I worried about be "outsourced"? Yep. Am I going to tuck tail and run from a job I love or not encourage others to try it if they are interested? No way!
Your perspective is a bit different, and my guess, your switch may actually be a bit easier, as you have a skill set that can be leveraged quite successfully against IT. Bioinformatics is a huge field right now and still growing as the healthcare budget is this country (USA) is growing by leaps and bounds and things like HIPAA make data management and security top priorities at hospitals, academic medical centers and patient care facilities.
The real question is how you want to get involved with IT. Do you want to be a coder, project designer, high level software architect, project manager...the list goes on. Understand up front that your salary in IT is probably not going to be competitive with what you can get with an MD, but being happy with what you do is a huge fringe benefit. Just plan accordingly.
I can't tell you how many people told me I was nuts to be leaving medicine. A vast majority honestly have no concept of what "real" medicine is like...they only have a dim view of what is presented on ER or in the movies.
Anyway, back to your situation. With an MD, you could probably start by sliding into informatics quickly by doing a fellowship (and don't worry, it is nothing like going back to residency from what I've heard) in informatics. A lot of the schools in the NE have new growing programs. You will tend to focus on designing solutions to tackle high levels problems. Consult on products and major installations of clinical management software. A good first resource might be the American Medical Informatics Association (AMIA). I've been to a conference they put on and it was interesting and quite a great place to make new contacts. The year I went (1999), data warehousing and mining was the big focus. My guess is this hasn?t changed much.
Really, I can't say much for what the industry is going to be like in 5 - 10 years...but I do know that I'll be in it. Just take your time now (I know...after what I've seen in medicine and how freaking hard my wife, a family practice resident, is working, you probably don't have much of it) and research it. Since it doesn't sound like you need to get out right away, you have the advantage of being able to plan your horizontal shift with a little more precision than I did.
As for me. When I left medical school I actually started working at the same medical school as an entry level help desk person assisting medical students in the student computer lab (very odd experience, btw) and then have managed to "move up" the ladder by just loving what I do and always trying to tackle new projects and learn new skills. Good luck. It may not be easy, but it sure is worth it.
i'm here with ya...
(5 months till step 1...)
I would recommend first that you understand what part of CS interests you. Much like medicine with its myriad specialities, there are facets to CS that may be more interesting to you than others. You could find development challenging (with various sub-specialties like OOP, embedded systems, etc) or perhaps you gravitate towards a more applied form like system administration.
I caution you to consider your switch _very_ carefully. The IT field in general is in the dumps right now and will be for the forseeable future. Wages are plummeting from offshoring and job security is not to be found. You state that your timeline is 5-10 years so who knows what the market will be like then, but there is one thing you can count on: you absolutely will need to differentiate yourself if you expect to obtain decent employment.
There are plenty of "programmers" and "sys admins" so you will need to identify a niche that can make you money and keep you employed. Remember that computer science without a business purpose is just a hobby. (I know I will get flamed for that, but it's the harsh truth. Count the number of IT jobs leaving the US right now -- that's because those services have become commodities and the people that provide them are viewed as interchangable. You cannot afford to be one of them.) If you could find a way to combine your medical experience with CS then you have found a viable (and profitable) niche. Your MD should instantly make you more employable at larger firms which value conformity and professional history. Your age will likely count against you at start-ups.
Best of luck.
The market is currently quite rough, especially to break into. After being laid off when a product tanked on the market, I've gone a few months without having a single resume responded to - and I have almost a decade of professional programming experience that was applicable to the jobs I've applied for (and my resume used to keep the phones ringing daily for months when I posted it - the market has changed a bit).
I've been spending the extra time continuing development on my personal code library and projects, writing open source code, and working on a few products that I expect there to be a market for when they're done. That's how I'd suggest breaking into the field as well.
You have a very special situation though - you know, or can find out if you think about it and ask your colleagues, exactly what one fairly wealthy niche market needs. What software would help you - as a doctor - work more efficiently? What software have you and your colleagues found lacking? There's your first project :)
It won't be easy, and you won't make money fast. My recommendation would be to start learning about computers and computer programming now while thinking about products. As soon as you feel like you can design a useful program and have one in mind - take a shot at it.
Use CVS ( or for Windows, WinCVS ) or some other revision control so you can keep track of all the code you write (I wish I had when I started!). Estimate for yourself how long tasks should take - track those estimates, and figure out why they were right or wrong. Document everything, especially the code.
Once you have a product you think is worthy for your target audience - use it yourself in your work. Then let some colleagues try it out. Fix anything you find wrong with it, and ask your colleagues for suggestions.
Then, set up a website, advertise it, and try to sell it - or set up a project on SourceForge and make it open source - whichever you feel more comfortable with. On SourceForge, you'll be able to enlist the help of other more experienced programmers and together tailor the product towards excellence. If you sell it and it's successful, you'll be able to afford to switch careers to full-time programmer/entreprenuer and just work on your business.
That brings me to another point - if you aren't currently running your own doctor's office, start learning business skills too. They're just as hard to pick up as programming skills - possibly harder for some. Figure out what you'll need to do to start running your own software company. Even if you decide to write your own software as open source and become an employee for someone else professionally, this will help you at the negotiating table.
What I would NOT recommend is dropping out of medicine, getting a BS in computer science, and expect doors to be immediately open when you g
I write code.
Gray's Anatomy seems like a good guide, though I apparently can't get a license by reading it. How can an old newcomer break into the industry?
No, you have to take the USMLE steps I, II, and field-specific step III for licensure. Anatomy is only one of the fields covered and the test questions for the boards often integrate multiple fields. To be honest, the American version of Gray's is not used by many medical schools and the British version, while superior, is prohibitively expensive. I don't know if you even need to go to medical school to passs the first two USMLE tests, but the year of internship and three-seven years of residency is mandatory as is a passing score for the three USMLE exams (soon to be four as of 2005).
As long as there is a Second Amendment, there will always be a First Amendment.
As a disclaimer, I add that the following points are a couple of reasons to discount my below observation. - I work in the technology field and half of me, for rather selfish (and short sighted) reasons, would like to limit the supply in my current field. - Irrespective of nay sayers, it is always most important to follow your dreams. If you feel absolutely in love with software development, then by all means go into it even if it means that you'll be writing QA scripts for $14/hr contract. As for CS, I would suggest against going into computer programming per se, if for no other reason then assuming you are 28 now, that with another 5 - 10 years you'll be 33 - 38 before you enter the profession. Programming is a young man's job. Look at chess masters, mathematicians when they made their major discoveries or anyone else working in a similar field working with abstract problem solving. They are at their physiological best in their late 20s. After that the brain is simply less able to be productive and creative in those types of tasks and even when offset with accumulated experience absolute ability begins to decline after 35, 40 at the latest. Yes, of course you can always find exceptions to these rules, programmers who did their best work late in their careers. But these examples are very rare. More common exceptions are those programmers who were brilliant in their 20s and still managed to be quite good in their 30+. Why not try product development or management in a computer technology related field? This will give you a closeness to the technology without becoming a past-his-prime common labourer.
Given the huge role that technology plays these days in medicine, I'd think that you might do very well to combine your interests in medicine and computer science. For one thing, it'd be a hell of a lot more interesting than tossing medicine altogether and becoming a database administrator or a mid-level systems analyst or whatever. No, you ought to learn enough computer science so that you can talk the talk and walk the walk, and then get involved in developing hardware and/or software that docs can really use to improve health care.
Radiology is perhaps the most obvious field where computers let docs see and do things that they never could before. I'd guess it's also probably the field where you'll find other docs with an interest in computers. You might do well to hang around with some of those folks and see where things are heading, and how they got started. But there are plenty of other fields as well... microbiology, chemistry, pharmacology, hospital IT systems, medical imaging, etc.
If you decide that a degree will really help you, then when the time comes you might consider taking a sabbatical from medicine and pursuing that degree full time. Or perhaps you'd do well to find a position at a university hospital where you could study CS as an employment perq.
1) Save people.
2) Write shareware software
3) Profit
To hear your $10k/year competition, dial 1-888-COE-4-EDS (EDS Corporation's help desk... located in India, of course). Option 3-2-3, is a major menu tree option, for example. Sure, they're not anywhere as near as good as you are, but they can read a problem/solution cookbook, so they're good enough.
Beware! If you give them something that isn't in their cookbook, they'll tell you it isn't a problem at all. If pressed, they'll actually tell you that it isn't THEIR problem. Even if it is.
Seriously, stay with the medical profession. It's doubtful most of us will have jobs 5 years from now since companies are moving to offshore development and support in India and other places where they make 1/5th what we do. We can't compete with that. In ten years the middle class in this country will be decimated.
:)
Stick with medicine. Good doctors are always needed and you can't send that offshore.
Any man who afflicts the human race with ideas must be prepared to see them misunderstood. -- H. L. Mencken
Sorry, your experience is anecdotal and deosn't give you enough information to judge accurately. Yale-New Haven is hardly a representative benchmark of all US emergency rooms. Here in Los Angeles, we have County-USC: you'll wait in line for hours there in a room full of undocumented immigrants waiting to be seen. Go to the Northridge Trauma Center and you're treated quickly-- if you have insurance. If you don't (and you're critically injured), Northridge stabilizes you and sends you to County-USC. I suspect you're used to getting the same treatment everywhere and didn't know that YNHH is where only the poor people go. Poor people wait in line here.
If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
You'll program like crap and I'll be the one who has to work late trying to figure out your damn spagetti code.
Sheesh ... just because it's software, anyone thinks they can do it.
For getting a job, grab up a degree and as many mid to high level certs as you can (especially from ISC and GIAC).
For keeping a job, it all depends on what you want to do. The programming and help desk field isn't all that promising right now due to outsourcing. However engineering, networking, and management positions are still open to be filled.
For focusing on CS: If you don't mind your current job, I'd stick with it and devote some free time to learning a programming language, then see about helping some open source projects for experience. Once you've got that you can move on if you want. Otherwise I'd stick with your current job until the air clears up around the whole out sourcing issue.
I love computers and have been computing since an early age. If the big companies have their way, computing will be devalued in general. Closed systems and the control they bring will basically marginalize most mainstream computing to a degree that limits their career potential for most of us.
It's not that we are anywhere close to being done with computing, far from it. The problem to me appears to be coming from the powerful faction of our society that really does not want US to be doing new things with our computers. Established interests are growing increasingly hostile toward new, uncontrolled, approved, whatever, development.
Ever wonder exactly why a lot of interesting projects begin outside the land of the free? I sure do, and it does not look good. When I find my computing interests leaning toward all the work done in other countries, I get worried. Computing in the US is stagnating under the weight of corporate lobbyists and ignorant on the take politicians.
Are you sure you want to start down that path? Perhaps you would be happier if you didn't know better.... You can likely afford to do either, which is less hassle longer term? I know, if I had more money, I would not care as much as I do. The fact that I don't is no big deal, but seeing all of this grind slowly into action takes a lot of fun out of something I really love doing.
Maybe OSS can save the day, but then again, maybe not. (Seriously.)
I have made the transition to open tools, so if things begin to happen, I am ready to go. This also lets me continue to do what I like, how I like it in a hobby form as well.
Having said all of that, I also have started networking again. Time to get some new skills --leverage my computing ability while I can. I fear the time is coming soon where computing will no longer stand on its own as a reasonable career path. Computing + other things does make sense though. (Beats starting at entry level again...)
Why not combine your knowledge of medicine with computing somehow? Build up a shop with all open tools, then start consulting? At least this way, you can strongly leverage your current skill set while trying hard to avoid many of the problems mentioned above. The movie studios have basically done this, perhaps medicine can too.
Or, forget the whole thing and try another field with promise. Biotech seems a good fit. At least you would get to use computers along with some of what you know now. Besides, the way things look from a laypersons point of view, genetics are very computer like. Debugging life forms might just be interesting in the way that our current computers are today. Just be sure you keep any new critters on a very tight leash!
Blogging because I can...
I'm coming from the other side...currently BSEE doing chip design but recently started a PhD is biomedical engineering, specializing in medical imaging.
If you were to pick up the programming skills (you could get into image registration, segmentation, computer-aided diagnois, etc...) or the EE skills (you could work on the detectors for digital x-ray systems or CT front-end design) you could apply them to imaging diseases of which you already have a fundamental knowledge. This is very powerful and missing in a lot of the research I've seen.
One last word of warning: I would think one reason you got you MD was to help people...I've personally found that a huge portion of the high-tech industry is just out to make money, regardless of the effects it has on it's workers, the environment or the betterment of society. This is why I'm getting out.
Why not get into computational biology / bioinformatics ? You could be helping to cure cancer and become 'das uber geek' at the same time. Not to mention, you'd be earning a ton of money.
I don't know about the industry, but there is a lot of multidisciplinary research going on in research institutions. Scientists and engineers working on healthcare systems, such as hospital information systems, telemedicine, e-learning, medical imaging, etc., could probably benefit quite a lot from a physician somewhat well-versed in science or engineering. You could check out the medical informatics conferences to get a broad glimpse of the field.
Of course research doesn't usually pay as much, but nothing stops you from practicing medicine on the side; quite a few people in research do that. Besides, I don't think you need a whole degree in science to work on the field, since you'd be working with engineers, physicists, etc.
First
CS != IT
Computers are like people. (What kind of doctor)
Network ? Programmer? Big systems ? windows? Linux?
How did you become a doctor? Same for CS. Take classes, get some books, write programs.
In 5 to 10 years you could be an ace.
BTW your medical traing can be a big asset. Companies are always interested in programmers who have knowledge of the field.
Is it possible/plausible to get one? Being a network/system admin is intriguing to me, but not in an all-Windows environment.
I'm currently considerng all my school/training options as I will be going back in a couple of years, once my wife finishes her master's. I dropped out 2x majoring in business both times, heh.
Chris
Out of all the people you will ever meet that claim to be software developers only about 5% will be good at it. The rest of them are just doing it as a job or because someone told them they could make a living doing it. If you cannot say that you do not mind spending 18 hours a day at a keyboard do not even think about it. Those of us that are in the top 5% will always rule the roost but we always need a few good me to write the BS database apps.
Got Code?
do both and study AI. expert systems, machine learning.. some of the medical diagnosis will be done by computers pretty soon. for example, to build a bayesian belief network, you need to encode prior knowledge into the system. start collaborating with fellow researchers in that area.
There's a huge difference in being a sysadmin and being a computer scientist.
It's like comparing a receptionist to the doctor. Both have their own skills which are related (and necessary to each other's jobs) but they do vastly different jobs.
The computer scientist will require much more theory and math and knowledge of the logical and electrical architecture of the system at hand.
-
Yes I am serious.
Jared
... as soon as I pass the Microsoft Certified Medical Physician test.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
It was started by two doctors, and now just look at them.
The poster was asking about a career change not about the financial incentive to do so Doing something some one loves is more apt to produce results than to do it for the money. Most people in the Medical field will tell you often the money really is not there. Perhaps they are looking at a career change for retirement or any number of other reasons. Just answer the question rather than imagining what the motivations are...
First, you need to do what you like to do. I think a warning about the tough times in computing is fair. However, the employment situation is much better for harder skills (i.e. CS versus IT, research level CS versus UML/OOP/J2EE). I think there's still plenty of room for highly educated and motivated people.
Actually I saw a program at Dartmouth for a dual MD and PhD in CS (odd combination, but definitely useful). You may also be interested in the field of computational biophysics. It's all of the same ilk.
The article poster said he was interested in CS. Are you interested in research or business? There are a lot of different routes you could take. Do you want to deal with biomedical engineers, biochemists, or lawyers? Frankly, you were way too broad.
Incidentally, for what ever it's worth. You may get a kick out of http://www.santafe.edu/sfi/People/kauffman/">Stuar t Kauffman's work. He's regarded as one of the best in the field of complexity research. He also has an MD and no PhD. He taught himself quite a bit.
Some good Math and CS books:
"The (New) Turing Omnibus: 66 Excursions in Computer Science" by A. K. Dewdney
This book is a great advanced introduction to all of the major topics of CS (except neural networks). This book has sections on Godel's Incompleteness Theorem, Relational Algebra (database theory), viruses, operating systems, data structures, and more. This is a great book for you.
http://aduni.org/
This site has lectures from an entire CS curriculum online. It was an experimental program designed for people like you.
You'll need a good introductory book on programming. Since you're probably not worrying about polishing up your resume, and you seem to be more interested in learning, you should take a look at:
"The Little Schemer" or "The Little LISPer" by Daniel Friedman.
If you really want the traditional route, take a look at "Thinking in Java" by Bruce Eckel. It's free and most people recommend Java or C++ as a good first language.
If you're really daring, try the "Perl" book by Larry Wall or "Learning Perl" by Randall Schwartz. Although, I think Perl is a horrible first language to learn. It's way too exotic.
Take a look at "Advanced Programming in the UNIX Environment" by W. Richard Stevens. It's a great book on the internals in Unix.
Learn assembly language, it's a poor man's computer architecture course. Try to make a small graphics program (draw some primitives [lines and circles]) with assembly. Of course, you can't do that in Windows (unless you call some Win32 libraries or are VERY good.
"First Order Logic" by Raymond Smullyan
This book essentially covers the mathematics of automated theorem proving. Armed only with this, I was able to read papers in the field. Some knowledge of basic logic (prepositional logic, maybe some slight familiarity with predicate logic) is required. I'd also recommend a whole lot of "mathematical maturity". I recommend any of Raymond Smullyan's books (technical and popular science) sight unseen. Even his thesis (Theory of Formal Systems) was pretty good.
Any book by Howard Whitley Eves or Robert R. Stoll
Both men wrote books on matrix theory (linear algebra and more) and set theory. Actually, both are top-notch textbook writers and many of their books are available from Dover Publications.
Calculus Made Easy by Silvanus P. Thompson (or by FRS [Fellow of the Royal Society] if it's really old) and Calculus by Michael Spivak
The first book is the closest thing to a competent Calculus for dummies. It's almost 100 years old and it's a classic. Incidentally Mr. Thompson was an engineer, not a mathematician. The second book is notoriously rigourous and is almost an introduction to analysis. I don't know if you really care about Calculus. You probably won't
What do you mean my sig is repetitive? What do you mean my sig is repetitive? What do you mean....
I wish I had never taken my engineering degree. It is the biggest regret of my life. I'm doing some consulting and have a few business ideas, but it's very difficult to get funding for what I want because of the climate for tech. My alma mater's graduating EE class last year had very few employment opportunities, and what few were there were either extremely low paying or extremely demanding field work (16 hour days 6 days a week). A friend who's a vice-principal of a school wanted me to come in and talk to her students last year about technology careers, and I told her I couldn't conscionably do it because the climate is so awful and unlikely to change that I'd recommend either medicine or trades instead of what I took.
There are tons of jobs for doctors here in Canada and the US. Unlike the vast majority of engineering and CS jobs, medical diagnoses will never be outsourced. Heck, take a small business course and get creative with what you've got now and market your services uniquely as a GP or whatever else you want to do. Without health, we have nothing. That's why your job is likely the fundamentally most important job in our society, and why doctors will be the last people on earth out of work.
Not knowing what your B.S. degree in (assuming you have one, of course, as it's not a requirement for medical school) you should consider graduate study in Biomedical Engineering.
Most certainly you'll have some undergraduate coursework to fill in, but you could go into areas such as biomechanics if you want to get your hands dirty or medical information systems if you want something more on the IT side.
Information systems, medical imaging and image analysis, biosignal analysis and processing, there's a pretty wide range of computational and traditional engineering focus areas that would benefit immensely from your experience.
Biomedical Engineering is still a growth field in this country, particularly in the R&D. Being an M.D. would make you uniquely qualified for clinical research, though that's largely a need outside of the information arena.
If you are interested in this path, talk to some universities that offer degrees and take some of the introductory coursework via satellite programs and get yourself admitted. A M.S. degree will be sufficient to get you into the job market and you can probably pull that off in about 3 years.
who are those slashdot people? they swept over like Mongol-Tartars.
Ok - MOST of us are thinking about getting a job which will NOT be outsourced.
.. bad bad bad idea
.. you're unlikely to get outsourced.
..
I'd seriously stay away from switching from an MD to a computer-sci
MDs got to be here
Its a GOOD thing to understand more about computers and software.
It's just a bad profession in terms of work.
Since you've probably got a LOT of medical school bills to pay - I would just start picking up computer knowledge on the side.
You will be better in your job understanding more.
First thing I would do is start reading about IT/computers. Pick your interest. Build a computer system at home and install the OS from scratch. Join a local user group. (in LA lalugs.org for linux user group.)
Goto the health care industry info conference
(I forgot the name of it, but it's once a year, and they do have a number of doctors there).
Oh - here it is
http://www.himss.org/ASP/index.asp
understand HIPAA
read about computer security
( securityfocus.com is good )
seriously, there's a lot of good stuff to
learn - BUT don't switch careers - that's just
crazy
good luck
Guess what? She tinkered with her knowledge, became a midwife, explored a lot of different areas where she could legally do what she was interested in doing. Sounds an awful lot like non-degree compsci people, no?
The normal path isn't required to become a doctor any more than it is to become a software whatever-the-hell this guy wants to be. It is considerably harder in medicine, due to guild behavior, but I'm sure we'll see that develop in compsci over time as well, as it is becoming as vital as medicine to our economy.
I wonder if you're confusing "insulting" with "threatening."
I wonder if you're assuming MDs are divinity when they're not.
I forget what 8 was for.
Rather than mock your question like most posters, I will try and give some advice :)
:)
First and foremost make sure you know what you want to do - two hours of research into the course curriculum is better than 2 years studying stuff your not interested in. Too many people go into training without really knowing what they are going to learn - they end up either dropping out or getting a job they don't like. For example, friends of mine went into an IT degree thinking it was purely computer programming, only to be rudely shocked when they found out the degree was dominated with marketing and management training.
Personally I would suggest looking to something like a short term TAFE course to get you started in what you are interested in then look to get some industry experience whilst working part time on a Uni course. You can learn heaps more in the industry in a short period of time than in a university. Also by spending time in the industry much of the stuff you study at UNI will make a whole lot more sense. - I remember learning transistor theory 1st year uni, but it is not until now that i am in the industry that it has started making sense.
Basically follow your interest. Study what is relevant to that interest and you should be happy. Don't listen to the neigh sayers talking cash and job prospects- i think they're a little -1 offtopic
There's some issues I read over and over...
"Programming! Programming!" - Any quality CS program is only about 1/3rd programming related. 1/3rd is theory, and the other 1/3rd is hardware architecture. Usually you'll have a few advanced classes which bring it all together (like operating systems design). A well educated computer scientist can switch languages with ease depending on the needs of the work and learn new ones quickly. In the CS world, programming is just a means to an end. I'm 1 semester shy of graduating with a degree in it and doing the programming is perhaps the least interesting part that I thankfully, spend little time in. I'm more interested in solving problems with *design* than typing away lines of code.
"There's no jobs!" - Yeah. Maybe if you don't have a CS degree which focuses on the *SCIENCE* part of it. There is a quite a demand for people in the engineering and scientific world who can design (as opposed to simply "program") advanced algorithms and computation software. Even if your speciality isn't scientific computing there is still a large number of jobs waiting for people with CS degrees out of well known schools in a variety of areas. IBM's making a big push for CS grads.
"*somethingsomething* IT! " - CS is *not* IT. Its like comparing the doctor's receptionist to the doctor. I'm not belittling the receptionist or the IT people - both the doctors and the CS folks need their records/networks organized and maintained with skill - but they do fundamentally different things.
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Mills College, in Oakland, California, has a set of graduate programs for people who have a degree in a field other than computer science and want to go into CS, either to change fields, prepare for a PhD program, or do interdiscplinary work. With bioinformatics, protein folding, medical records, etc., there are great opportunities for someone who knows medicine and CS.
There's a Mars rover that's really sick and needs a doctor!
From someone who has achieved nothing in the industry for 10 years: the answer is...don't.
Web "development" and other low-skilled monkey-work is a dead end field now, especially with competition from markets that can support low wages (given you can do my whole job just by reading "HTML for Dummies" and "VB in 24 hrs") and with people better and smarter than me growing the industry by open sourcing basic infrastructure, while I struggle with HTML and GUI "programming" expecting to get a 6 figure salary for doing basically SFA.
It was once a good field for the stupid, lazy and greedy to be in, but now that the deadshit jobs have been weeded out I cannot recommend it to losers like myself.
when you're going one way, and you see a bunch of unwashed people in rags running in the other direction, tripping and crying uncontrollably, grasping at the sleeves of your sterile white doctor's coat with their gnarled, flat-tipped fingers, begging for morsels of food or the dregs in your Starbucks cup - common sense says turn around and go back the way you came.
pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
Start off with a diploma, and see if you can land a job with that. As long as you can convince someone in an interview that you have what it takes, you don't need the degree. Especially as your work ethic, etc has already been proven through other schooling and experience.
----
All of whose base are belong to the what-now?
Ummm... those of us who haven't been laid off are considering manual labor as an attractive alternative to this field. And you want to join up?
From what I've seen so far, the advantage that India has over the US is that it is cheaper. Not that it is better. Not that it is equal. Just that it is cheaper. A small portion of my company has been outsourced to India. Like the Internet, we treat it as 'damage' and try our best to route around it.
Why not just hire a flock of interns in the US? It'd be just as good, and the accent wouldn't be there.
The computer industry isn't what it was, and probably never will be.
I graduated in 1998 (finished in 1997). Since then, I've come close to nervous breakdown twice (both, admittedly, in the same job -- my first), due to overwork and under-relaxing. Yes, I was young and naive; I didn't realise what I was doing. But the short of it is: I want out. The only issue I have with that is not knowing what I want to do instead. In other words: it's one thing knowing you want to get out of something. It's something quite different to know what you want to get in to. I don't know the latter yet; until I do, I'm staying in IT (the devil you know, and all that).
I've considered a couple of things, but they're either too short term (you physically can't do the job for more than 5-10 years), or require me to quit my job and go back to full time study. The former's not what I want -- I want something for the rest of my life -- and the latter isn't something I can afford to do, not without knowing for certain that I want to do it.
In short, unless you know what you want to do, and why you want to do it, I would very strongly recommend that you stay where you are. You could end up making your situation worse, not better, depending on the reasons for the change.
You're more than welcome to come to the computer field. I'm really hoping to get out and do something useful with my life.
:(
I feel that the computer field is really a waste. People here are only half-joking about moving to India, but tech CEOs are telling people that jobs aren't Americans god-given right (the bitch from HP said this).
So, if you want to go into biotech, sure. You'll be an assett by all means. Just stay away from straight IT or coding. You'll be unemployed for a looooooooooong time
This kind of work is something you really love and do whether you get paid or not. It's not a job.
Then 5-10 years down the road I could just retire and never ever work again. Physician can fart a couple of times and there you go, he made $150 for "yearly checkup". No sweat, no pressure, no dead nerve cells. A typical programmer would have to crank out the code for half a day for this kind of money, under pressure from his moronic boss and on a tight schedule. And retirement would be nowhere in sight.
Computer programming is something you can learn to do adequately well in your spare time, sufficient to build small but very useful systems.
Software engineering is (or should be, the term is widely bandied around but not very meaningfully sometimes) the process of building large software systems on time, on budget, and to specified levels of quality and reliability - at least in theory.
Computer science is the theoretical study of computing - what they can and can't do, how long it takes to do it, and trying to make them do the things they can't current do very well! It's conducted at universities and research labs, mostly by people with or seeking PhDs. Much of it is almost a branch of mathematics.
If you're already a practising physician, 5-10 years from now it will be a little late for you to be considering becoming a full-on computer science researcher in a field that doesn't take advantage of your background.
You could certainly learn to become a competant programmer in your spare time, but it would take another degree and more professional experience to become a fully-fledged software engineer. As you've heard, there's a lot of doom and gloom at the moment about job prospects in that field, mainly because of the outsourcing boom. Who knows what the demand will be like in 10 years. However, demand for doctors is virtually guaranteed to increase over the next decade or two as the population ages, so I wouldn't be considering the move if job security is at all important.
If you are serious about a career change, I'd be exploring the possibilities of working on medical technology. From what I hear, doctors are notoriously clueless when it comes to information technology, so somebody who can translate between medical jargon and IT jargon is going to be enormously valuable and have a very interesting career, no matter what side of the fence they sit on.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
Well I want to suggest what you probably don't want to hear.
You can't just pickup "Engineering" like you can coding (And Code Monkeys are very different from Computer Science majors anyways). The Engineering disciplines are so detailed to just get into the field without going through the traditional path first. (I.E. A 4 Year College, and preferably 2 more years after that) Sorry, but MIT's OpenCourseware is crap compared to an actual Engineering education.
There is a reason why you don't hear of too many "College Dropout" engineers who make it big in the industry like you do programmers. It's just not that kind of field and with the lack of engineering jobs already, companies aren't giving job offers to people with sub-3.5 GPA's, let alone self-taught engineers.
Stick with being a Doctor, it pays better anyway.
Just to be completely off topic...
:)
You're a doctor, dealing in Women's Health.
If you switch to Engineering/CS, you can pretty much kiss anything with deal women's health goodbye. You know what I mean, don't you? You can't have everything!
The closest you'll get is pr0n, hopefully not Goatse.cx, if you turn into a geek, or at least your powers will be greatfully diminished.
I would like to point out that YNHH is not a hospital where only the poor people go. In fact, it is rated as one of the top research hospitals in the US. While I would be the last to agree that YNHH is problem-free, I don't think that YNHH is a racist or classist hospital.
I'd recomend getting a Cisco CCIE (cisco certified internetwork expert) certification if you have any interest in networking. It'll take a few years, but you'll be made for life career wise if you pull it off.
Why not just hire a flock of interns in the US? It'd be just as good, and the accent wouldn't be there.
It's not the accent that's a problem since most of the outsourcing from what I've heard is mostly coding jobs and speaking isn't an integral part of that job process for them. Yes, it might be harder to communicate, but all ideas are commutable through e-mail as opposed to if you were to offshore all tech support jobs in which case the accent might be a barrier since their job function will be dependent on their language skills.
Now, looking past the accent, let's look at the experience skillset between an intern in the US and a cheap Indian programmer. An intern would basically be a college undergrad or graduate student with a limited two or three years at most (total) experience in the field. Multiply this skill by a dozen and you're not getting that much. On the other hand, if you were to contract with an Indian development firm, you would be getting a dozen coders who have worked together before on past projects in a professional environment for the past few years. Oh, and they also happen to have B.S. degrees from some of the best universities in India. Yes, you might say that India's educational system is not on par with the US's, but actually, some of the universities in India are better academically not to mention more selective than even some of the top US universities.
Not that it is better. Not that it is equal. Just that it is cheaper.
If it wasn't delivering acceptable results such that the final product were comparable to US products, would you really think that big corporations would be willing to send these important jobs overseas? We're talking about building software that power companies. The Chinese can do just as well as India on this regard; that is, building software that is comparable in quality to that written in the US, but they have an additional language barrier to deal with and so are not quite at the forefront of the offshoring. Give China a few more years and when their number of English speaking computer professionals increase, you'll start to see India lose jobs to China just as the US is losing jobs to India. But, just as with the US, it will end up being the better good for the global economy, as India will be able to specialize even further. However, in this case, the benefits to India when China starts taking its programmer jobs maybe not be as great as the benefits to the US right now with India taking our programming jobs because India has had less time to transition and has a more unstable economy so transitions are much harder on the people there.
They preach to engineers that they should be well-rounded, and know a little bit of everything -- math, physics, yadda yadda yadda. But if you're joining late in the game, just focus on the important stuff:
For math, I'd definitely start with discrete mathematics. Work through it thorougly -- not only are its concepts like trees, graphs, recurrences, etc. immediately applicable to CS, but you should get a good feel for other elements of formal mathematics you'll need later, such as formal proofs and mathematical notation. If you really love discrete math after doing this, I'd suggest you pick up Knuth's book Concrete Mathematics -- but not many people would be ready to make that jump. Another branch of mathematics you might want to pursue is logic -- handy for AI, and it really puts you in a mindset you'll find useful in CS. (A shameless plug for my logic professor's awesome book is here.)
Then onto the computer science portion of our program: I don't know the extent to which you know programming, but assuming something minimal, start off by learning how to program in a scripting language. I recommend either Perl or Python (or both). If you're looking to apply your medical skills to computing, these languages are key -- in fact, today I turned down a job to hack on the Human Genome Project at my university. The preferred languages of applicants? Perl, C++, Java, and Python. So you'd score two of the four languages right there. Then, pick up a book on Algorithms, and start reading it (such as CLR). Hopefully, your brief foray into programming and your exposure to math by way of discrete and logic will make that read easy and enjoyable.
Where from there? Pick up a more widespread language, such as C++ or Java. Then pick a specialization in Computer Science that sounds interesting to you, and start reading about it -- such as networking, databases, computer architecture, etc. I can't emphasize enough how much a book can teach you -- a book can be all you need to succeed in many classes.
I know the above outline of what to learn is not found in most (all?) colleges. It's not what I'm going through right now at my university. But right now, off the top of my head, that's the best fast-track program I can think of.
Best of luck to ya,
shadowmatter
There seem to be plenty of opportunities to mix computers and medicine for someone with experience/knowledge in both fields.
I'd say if you are considering switching careers, combine an MS degree program with self-study. Academic programs offer contacts and structure.
On the very interesting, but smaller market, side: bioinformatics is a field that obviously benefits from education in both areas. Being highly proficient on both fields could give you a very cool research job.
On the vanilla, but much wider market, side:
- The medical industry is still lagging behind in IT. Most doctors are not computer-savyy, and this has translated in low IT spending and traditional, paper-and-people based solutions for a lot of things. Small to medium medical offices can be positively Luddite.
- There is a desperate need for good software that has not been, and cannot be, satisfied by typical retail software. Think custom applications, vertical markets. The few applications that exist own their respective markets and charge accordingly high bills.
- New regulations (HIPAA for one) and market pressure are forcing the industry in the US to do more than "catch up" and embrace technology much like financial institutions have done for a long time.
- HIPAA et al will not only force a lot of IT investments in that community; they impose new BIG requirements on the vertical applications that already exist. This opens the market to competition that can meet those requirements better and/or faster than the conservative choice (which may not meet them at all).
The difficult part (I believe) is on having medical knowledge and credibility, where a professional of that industry has an advantage. Being able to communicate with doctors, understand what they want and let them understand what they need. That's easier for someone who shares their vocabulary and frame of mind.
Team up with some geeks if you need to (to build an application, for example) and go into the market as a startup. Or knock on the doors of the more stable companies you find in that field.
Freedom is the freedom to say 2+2=4, everything else follows...
Is this a joke? Did April Fool's Day come early this year? Who in their right mind would want to do this?
road...What tips could computer industry insiders offer to one who is willing...
Does "years down the road" mean back in time?
Now that would be a wise choice.
When you get there you should write an online auctioning site. It should rhyme with eday.
Don't bother with building online message boards for nerds.
That just won't get you anything, but sniveling non-paying unemployed whiners.
Trust me!
Here at BU, we have this program called the Late Entry Accelerated Program LEAP where people with non-engineering degrees can get their masters. As far as I can tell, most people in LEAP start off in a few essential undergrad classes, then go pretty quickly onto the Master's track, not wasting any time.
I think our engineering program is pretty good. Our Photonics Center was just recently built (1996) so we attracted tons of exceptional professors but still have some pretty bad ones. We have some nice labs too. I think it's worth checking out, especially in a few years.
Here's the main page for our College of Engineering.
Spark, meet tinder. Tinder, spark.
Now that that's out of the way: if you're considering a schooling method other than self-instruction, you're not going to be fit for the industry anyway, so don't even bother. Seriously - people go to school for things like IT and CS, sure, but just that won't do a thing for a person. CS requires one be always updating their skills; if you're just getting into the field at 40+ (I figure this number from the idea that you graduated college at 23ish, the spen 8 more years in school after that, plus whatever time you needed to become an established physician who is already considering a career change) and doing so by going back to school, chances are you've not got the right mindset to be successful in the field, especially considering the atmsophere of the industry for the last 3ish years.
Have you been under a rock for the last 3 years, I wonder? Seriously. I can't but almost consider this some sort of mockery of slashdot, and possibly simply a joke. You're a physician. You rob people of immense amounts of money (usually paid for by insurance). Your job is dependable - people will always get ill. You could live a comfortable live and spend your money on expensive gadgets and new server racks for your toys - and do it on your leasure, for enjoyment. But instead you'd rather make a pittance in your old age, at risk of being fired or dismissed for any number of reasons, so as to get to work long hours under unkind managers? It seems to me that the doctor tends to be at, or near, the top, in many situations. Seems a bit more preferable.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
Just sit and wait, and you'll change your mind in 10 years.
If it's what you want, do it. Fear not--I think the number of programming jobs in the USA will grow.
I, too, am a physician in the midst of changing my career to programming. I quit medicine a few months ago, just in time before my head exploded. I finally realized that I had never enjoyed medicine. My background is physics; I could never wrap my brain around medicine.
I'm learning C++. I'm considering game programming and medical informatics. The medical software I've used has been awful (just a hole to throw data into) and I know that I can make stuff that's much better. I'm going to make a software tool for managing chronic illness. However, game programming would be more fun. I think I could write game AI that would walk across the room and smack you in the face.
Would I be wasting my many years of medical education and practice? No. I'm like Dirk Gently: I believe in the fundamental interconnectedness of all things. Whenever I learn anything, I connect it to everything else I know. (Just today I noted that I could easily apply my medical problem-solving skills to assessing avalanche risk.) Also, my work as part of multidisciplanary medical teams will translate to working in programming teams wherein members have differing sets of skills.
Most likely I'll still do some doc-in-the-box stuff on the side to make money, at least as long as I feel competent.
The only difference is that all the people I talked about changing careers are American :)
You may want to start with a language class in Mandarin or Hindi...
My first undergrad was in Mech. Eng. but I ended up being promoted from my part-time job as on-campus computer tech, to mananger of tech support services. I had a fantastic time but I leveraged that experience, with degrees in Economics and Law, into a job with the Foreign Service. Now I'm working overseas and LOVING it. That eng/IT background REALLY comes in handy. Not only does it truly give you insight into matters that a non-geek would never even see, it impresses people too! So my bottom line message is, and an earlier poster said this, combination is a Good Thing(tm). Sure, that's an awful lot of schooling, and its questionable, as an investment, under a cost/benefit analysis, that it will pay off. It does make the kind of work you get, and life, interesting. In the end, I guess you could be called a "specialised generalist".
Not saying you can't become good or good enough. But good programming, analysis or design requires a particular way of thinking. I've moved from computer science to video editing, but you know I still think like a programmer: that's just the way I analyze the world. And I'd say that's probably what marks a "geek" versus someone in a techie field.
Also, consider where your strength truly is. Maybe a partnership is called for: you being the domain expert and the other person being the computer scientist. You'll teach each other and learn from each other, and the net result will probably be better than one person with dual training.
Definitely follow your passion, though. We're blessed in this day and age and in this country that we can do that. I'm on my second career now, and looking maybe at moving to a third in the next few years. Or maybe branching into three simultaneous careers.
(I have a friend who was a 3D artist, but has now scaled back to 2 days a week of 3D work and 3 days refinishing antiques. Maybe we'll all break out of career stovepipes somehow.)
The present world order does not allow for proper free trade within the context of globalization. Adam Smith, great poobah of free-trade advocacy based his argument on the premise that free markets are efficient IF there is a free flow of populations, i.e. I can move to India tomorrow. Too bad the REAL WORLD isn't that way, huh? Weird how absolute ideologies, like Communism and Neo-Liberalism never work out perfectly, huh?
Here's a medical analogy for you.
;/
The situation in the computer industry is like medicine would be as if every kid who had dissected some fetal pigs decided to hang out a shingle and become an obstetrician.
You're looking at replacing a secure, varied and financially extremely rewarding field with a field which is insecure, hypersaturated, and arguably can be done by someone with very little education.
Not only that but IS work lends itself to ruts. Wherever you work, you're going to be learning an API or a network system, and then you're going to be writing for or supporting that API or network, until you get another job, where you could very well be doing exactly the same thing.
If you're interested in spending your time in overcrowded cubicle farms full of stressed, angry, reclusive programmers who live in constant fear that their jobs are going to be given to retrained bricklayers from bloody Pakistan, you're headed in the right direction!
Oddly enough, I'm in a position now where I can run screaming from the bloated tech industry, and I'm back in college getting ready for med school.
The only way your idea is not utterly BONKERS is if you want to somehow use your medical skill to get into something like bioinformatics where the money is potentially gigantic for doctors who have technical ability.
Here's what the computer industry is like right now. You have a lot of people who are very experienced and good at what they do. Then you have numerous carpetbagging amateurs who have installed kiddie Linux a few times, are good at bullshit, and have wormed themselves into positions of responsibility. It's almost like a kind of Ponzi scheme.
That's much of the reason why the industry lost a lot of its credibility. That's much of the reason why the industry started asking "Why are we paying this yoyo $120 an hour when Patel in Calcutta says that he can get the job done for rupees on the dollar?"
Look very very carefully at this before you do it. You've got numerous people here-- who should know-- telling you things like "Abandon hope all ye who enter here." This is no joke.
Sorry to rant but I'm sure most of ya all know what I'm talking about
Intolerance for ambiguity is the mark of the authoritarian personality.
I wouldn't recommend it... There's a great need for good physicians and once you start messing with computers for 60+ hr/wk - well let's just say that after the original excitement after a couple of months it becomes a pain - my dad changed to IT from a stat professor and that was his experience. I've always liked computers and I want to keep liking computers so I resolved to enter a non-CS engineering field instead and treat as a hobby - with your income as a physician you could afford to construct a geek's paradise - build your own network at home - maintain a couple of servers (WWW/POP/NIS/DNS/SAMBA - a DEC alpha, a sparc, an itanium, opteron,xeon) and you'll still have lots you can learn and can still enjoy computers.
i'm all for having cs/ee educated doctors but you missunderstand the rate of brain drain / loss of doctors from canada to the united states. now we could debate about the why's and the poletics of it, but i won't (because you and i may not agree) but what is important here is that there are areas where there is basically little to no medical coverage whatsoever, and existing doctors are working quadruple and triple shifts back to back because there just aren't any doctors here. there are crazy lineups and people have died because there just isn't enough doctors to work with. i would suggest, as the parent poster did, that the doctor should go to ontario(or quebec, or saskatchewan, or bc...) instead of going forward.
and if this post couldn't get any worse,
"So if among virtuous actions, political and military actions are distinguished by nobility and greatness, and these are unleisureley and aim at an end and are not desirable for their own sake, but the activity of reason, which is contemplative"1
paraphrased, that the noble deeds which are not enjoyable are to an end, and this end is to get to the point where we as intelligent beings can work on creating the new tech that will save lives. of course feild inventions are nice too(instant adaption) but... at least in aristotle's Point of View i think we can safely say that this man should instead do what will allow more contemplation to exist, ie, save lives.
and that's to say nothing about places with worse situations than canada.
and as for *my* life, my life is held soley by my skins' capability to keep myself alive, and should i ever have something happen to me where i become injured severeley or violently ill again i'm going to take a bus > 250km away instead of going to a local hospital...because i'll get treated faster, guaranteed. in fact i should get a poster or a bracelet or something to that effect...hrm...
1 Aristotle Nicomachean ethics 1177b 16
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
I second that. After my residency, I did a fellowship in Medical Informatics. It is a great way to combine both field. The National Library of Medicine funds 18 training programs in the field. Check out this website. I know work in part clinical, part implementation/research position and am very happy. Given the current interest in IT in medicine, and the unique problems of adapting IT to physician workflows, the job market is on the upswing. Good Luck!
Computers are a really, really, really wide field, as are most. So what you need to figure out, if you want a new carrer, is what about computers instrests you. First, decide which of the major categories you like:
1) Hardware design. These are the guys that start it all, who make the circuts that eventually come into everyone's computers. This is engineering, specifically computer and electrical. It's all about circut engineering and design, simulation, and making it work in the real world.
2) Software design. The next step. You take the finished hardware, and implement the code that makes it usable. This is computer science and is all about writing, debugging and testing code.
3) Support. The final stage. Once everything is designed, out in the real world, and being used, someone has to keep it working. Stuff breaks down, and users can't fix it, so someone must support it. There really isn't a university degree for this, though CIS or maybe MIS would be the closest thing. It's all about solving problems with finished systems.
So, which appeals to you? While you can cross from one to the other, it's generally good to try and pick what you want to do and work to that. HArdware guys should work on an engineering degree, support guys should work on low-level job experience and certifications.
Now once you've picked a general area, you need to look at specifics. What particularly do you want to do. Like if you are a support guy is it networks you like? Computers? Server farms? A mix? I mean within each broad area, there's lots to do.
So, really, what you need to do first is take some basic courses, talk to people, read some literature, maybe get some friends to take oyu on job tours, but try and figure out what it is you like about computers and what you'd want to do. It, like most fields, is broad and there is plenty to do. Try and find the niche that is right for you, then persue it. This isn't 1999 where anything computer related would land you a job in 6 seconds, you need to get relivant skills and experience to what you want to do. So the first step is to figure out what that is.
What I want to know is how to get to any other field from the IT field? I want out of the IT field into just about anything else except sales.
First off I should mention that this is nothing more than a plug. Dalhousie university (Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada) has just started a graduate program in Medical informatics. Medical informatics is basically the science of using mathematics and computers to data mine medical information for useful results. This is particularly relevant to this situation since the ideal candidates for this program are people with a medical background. People who can look at the data and form some sort of understanding of what it means in the real world. I know at the moment Dalhousie is the only Canadian school to offer such a program though I do believe there are a few American schools offering similar programs. Beyond that I don't know who else offers such a program.
It is also worth noting that Dalhousie Comp sci has just aquired Jon Borwein who is one of the worlds formost experts in experimental mathematics and just happens to have a history with several of the developers of the Medical informatics progam. It is unclear if he will be involved with the program but he will certainly be teaching courses at Dal. Probably worth looking into.
Unless you are willing to take a massive pay cut. Massive, massive, massive.....
I have a Ph.D in CS and I've been unemployed for over 8 months now.
My only requirement to accept a position is a pay rate greater $65k. Which is rather pathetic, really.
not a troll, true advice. listen to this guy
Slashdot Eds Link Anonymous Posts With Logged Posts
They Are Vermin Feeding On Each Other's Feces.
I Hate \.
I think that the paper degree would be relatively useless. You already have one of those... they show that you know how to apply yourself to a goal, and to learn. If you can learn what you need to through online sources, local user groups, etc., then a manager interviewing you would be stupid not to take someone smart and dedicated enough to be a doctor, and who knows what they want enough to teach themselves software in their free time. I can't keep myself from plugging squeak. It's got a fantastic knowedgeable and friendly community, and a great object-oriented programming environment. Good luck!
As plenty of other \.'ers have looked at the 'Move to India' idea:
They usually make posts suggesting that two steps are necessary - Moving to India, and Profit. Firstly Moving to India is going to be difficult to do if you do not speak a local language, which will make it even harder to work in a team. Secondly, the Profit idea is the real fallacy. Why do IT companies outsource to India? Because wages there are several times less than in the West. That doesn't, to me, seem like profit, unless profit means a big cut in Quality of Life - even allowing for cheaper living there.
Exercise your right not to vote. thinkoutside.org
Is it about money? Interest is interest, be it in bodies or body tags. You had enough to go through medical school, and I am betting that you specialized. A topic of interest is a topic of interest. Might I suggest a career in healing the inability of programmers to align and certify a list of the most needed software for human use. Or cognitive science. The human mind operates at 200 hz.
"The study of nuclear reactions, where you take an atom and smash it to pieces. "
Yeah! A career were you get paid to break things.
are you thinking about this field? Someone with a medical degree should be thinking biotech, unless the court order dictates that you "never touch another living creature again". You think I jest? It is not 1999 any more, despite what your Prince cassette tapes tell you.
= 9J =
From the above link:
Emphasis mine."Health Information Science is the study of how health data are collected, stored and communicated; how those data are processed into health information suitable for administrative and clinical decision making; and how computer and telecommunications technology can be applied to support these processes." - UVIC
Health Information Sciences (HINF) is probably going to be a growth market in the coming years. With an aging baby boomers demographic, governments are going to be throwing more and more money at healthcare. As health needs grow, so does demand for information infrastructure. This is where HINF could be a good industry segment to get into. Up here in Canada, the government is throwing billions of dollars at health care these days, and it's only going to increase.
Since you're already a physician, you probably have a lot of domain knowledge that will be very useful when desiging software for the health industry. Having that domain knowledge is extremely valuable since you'll have a lot of insight in the processes, laws, and implications of the health industry.
"There is no spoon." - The Matrix
Good luck, and start in a small office where eventually you can get a few docs and a few assistants, and stap these puppies onto patiens. That's the money plus emotional reward. DO NOT end up in a cubicle designing these things for some big comapny. Be "in the field" making your own adjustments to, or just installing, existing designs, with your own custom fittings/tweaks/etc. That's some tips I heard from the aforementioned owner.
All I can really tell you is my experience. I made the switch into health IT 3 years ago from specialising in international security analysis. I had no experience or qualifications other than enthusiasm and a willingless to learn, yet I've found promotion easy and rewarding, the conditions are good and the work is interesting. Speaking as an insider, clinical knowledge gives you an enormous advantage. Most programmers don't know the first thing about the ins and outs of an effective patient administration system, or any of the dozens of specialised softwares that exist in hospotals. More importantly, they also don't appreciate what is likely to be required, therefore you have insights there which you could capitalise on.
The health IT field is also somewhat different to the main. Contracts tend to be longer (for example in my company we typically have 15 year contracts to run, upgrade and support our software on site), thus health IT is not as prone to jitters in the market as more consumer-orientated software development tends to be. Furthermore, health IT is actually in a fairly ropey state, with hospitals typically having lots of very specialised softwares, one for each department, all trying to talk to each other using interfaces or the like, with a varying degree of technology, typically some 10 or so years behind average IT development.
Regarding outsourcing, we absolutely wouldn't and couldn't dream of it in my company. Maybe it does happen in other medical IT companies, but the reality with us is that we provide exceptionally strong support for our product, with penalties if we don't resolve critical bugs within 4 hours of being notified, 24/7 - it simply wouldn't work relying on a development team working in a different timezone.
Good luck =)
Your wage comment doesn't make sense, the person posing the question could well improve their position vastly by changing jobs.
The the 'you're from India' comment?? Such a change in career is not the preserve of Indians.
I would say the best thing for you to do would be to specialize in creating hardware software that would have medical implications.
learn to speak chinese or hindi.
Move to India?
keep in mind most of the people I know aren't even getting the average.
That's especially sad since here at Lake Woebegone, all the children are above average.
As you will see from the other comments, life in CS sucks. I am a VB programmer with some minimal Linux skills (ducks to avoid rotten tomatoes). Yet I make more $$$ then most of the people posting here. Why? Because I am a chemist. I was hired by a Biotech company to work in their lab. This is "OK", because I have a chemistry diploma. They would never be allowed to hire a pure I.T.-er, because these guys belong in the IT dept. Yet I spend 95% of my time doing IT related work. I like my job and chances for getting fired are almost non-existent. They NEED me.
10 ?"Hello World" life was simple then
...would you want to try and break into this field? I mean don't get me wrong, I love what I do, but it's not like there are plenty of well paid jobs to go around as it is.
Or jobs at all for that matter.
Move sig!
Look here
Do this, or something similar in your area. You will get credits for a lot of the medically oriented subjects, and you will learn the Computer Science from the ground up. I believe if you're going to use Computing, ensure it is firmly based on theory, and not hacking. Hacking you learn to do, but theory is harder to get afterwards. You may never code a bubble-sort, but you'll know where to look if you need to.
My AUD$0.02
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I would think that only a physician in Pennsylvania would actually WANT to switch to Engineering/CS...
My advice: stick with Medicine - of all professions, it will probably be one of the last to be outsourced to India...
you don't need a degree to "break into the industry"... if you must get a degree get an MBA or something like that... in any case, try to become an entrepreneur rather than a salaried worker... if you spot an opportunity, no matter how small, you can go for it without a degree... if you can provide a service or a product for a reasonable price, then the market really doesn't care about degrees...
...is often one of those areas where you need both qualifications and experience to get a good job. If you only have experience, you'll find it difficult to get a high-level job, and if you only have qualifications - well, you've basically at the bottom of the ladder.
In Europe, I'd recommend the Open University. It's distance-learning in your own time, so you can start out with an entry-level job immediately while you're studying. Frequently, the mere fact that you *are* studying towards a degree counts in your favour, so you may be able to negotiate a higher salary based on it. Plus, you can work towards "smaller" qualifications en route, so that after a year or two you could have a Certificate in Computing, another year or two and you have a Diploma, and then eventually (after an average total of about six years, depending on how much you want to take on at once) you get your Degree.
Another reason the Open University is good is that, if (like me) you're in the IT field without qualifications, but you already know your shit, you can step straight on to the Postgraduate level stuff. I'm currently working towards an MSc despite the fact that I don't even have a BSc. I'm certainly thankful for that, because I didn't particularly want to have to sit through a course on "You, Your Computer And The Internet"!
Given the recent furore in the UK over university tuition fees, I wouldn't be at all surprised if in the future more school-leavers get a job with someone willing to fund a degree with the OU. It takes a few years longer, granted, but you come out with it with a big wad of cash from your job rather than a big pile of student debt.
I broke out of the industry, doing a late PhD in neuroscience. My specialty is computational modeling of the auditory system, so I did keep a foot in CS. My current position is senior lecturer of computing, where I teach advanced object oriented design and computer security in addition to neuroscience and computation science, but still I broke out rather than in.
I would recommend looking at computational biology or medicine as a good compromise.
>> Anusologist? I believe proctologist is the correct term - google is your friend.
From Google:
Your search - anusologist - did not match any documents.
No pages were found containing "anusologist".
Suggestions:
- Make sure all words are spelled correctly.
- Try different keywords.
- Try more general keywords.
Also, you can try Google Answers for expert help with your search.
W = (-president)^1/2
Clients will appreciate someone who f.ex. develops tools for them and is proficient also in their field of profession. You will understand what the people who will use the service/application really WANT from it.
Couldn't think of a better project manager..
-el
is DON'T. Here are a few reasons why you really ought NOT to get a tech degree / persue a tech career: ... just for 10 minutes". As a tech, you're expected to save your neighbors from themselves continuously. ... as a CAREER path in this day and age, though ... you really don't need the hassle. You served your "8-years-of-hell" already going through med school; no need to repeat it with a career. ... but it's not seen that way these days.
:( Sure, I have Gray's Anatomy, have done dissection, and know what bursae are ... but guess what? That doesn't get me a damn dime.
... it was crazy.
* As an MD, your next-door neighbors don't really expect you to "just pop over and check out Bob's heart a bit
* As an MD, your time is respected (see above).
* As an MD, you're employable.
* As an MD, it pretty much stands that you're in a respectable profession with reasonable people. The same assumptions will not neccessarily be made in tech.
* As an MD, if the patient dies, people are typically understanding. As a tech, if you can't revive someone's 80086 to run Windows XP PRO, then YOU SUCK.
* As an MD, you'll see the field saturated with Indian and Pakistani folks. As a tech, you'll see the field cornered with Indian and Pakastani folks(1).
* As a HOBBY, computers are great and are quite rewarding
* If you're looking for some Mad Money / Retirement Money, look elsewhere. I personally ended up coming back to school for advanced degrees rather than go work in Texas for $28,000/year as a professional.
* Respect, respect, respect. MD == "professional". Engineer/IT Person == "professional" also
G'luck. I personally wish that I'd have done what you did (med school and kept computing as a HOBBY) rather than the other way around.
N
(1) I have nothing against either; I worked for/with Pakastanis in a mom-and-pop shop in the mid-90s
I think that is a great combination and there are many many opportunities in this field from visualisation software for genetics to medical nanotech! With medical work experience/education and a new engineering degree you would be in an enviable position.
Go for it!
One of my clients/partners sounds like he could be you. :-) My partner is really anoyed about the materialistic extremeties in todays medical world and he thrives to evade it by that combination of strategies: True Continous Medical Education (you see, I know the buzzwords allready :-) ) and part-time dealing with a field he has a hobbyists interest for. Just the right thing for you too, I'd suggest. ;-) who knows what he's talking about and also has some business and social skills. Note that I'm originally an artist and also come from another field than CS/IT. When you start a business, know where your power lies and learn to pass on the parts that you're not good in, even if you would like to do everything yourself. That's one part of success. Best of luck to you.
He's a top-notch dermatologist and has worked as a consultant for the most advanced imaging system available for dermatology - one that can automatically diagnose dermal anomalies such as skin cancer. He's got a company that expertises in medical E-Learning for medical personell and works for various medical organizations and the pharma industry.
I'd suggest that if you want to study because it interests you, get used to the idea of studying for fun. When you've got your degree you can still decide what to do with it.
On the other hand, I'd suggest you either stick with your jobs which has something around a bazillion advantages over CS and IT or you combine both with medical consulting for pharma companies and other organizationhs in IT related medical projects. Or medical related IT projects. You could even do it parttime until your business is going.
As for my client/partner, he hasn't got a CS degree but he spends 2 days a week dealing with the field and it's geeks (me). His Webdesign is horrid and I'm having a hard time talking him out of it, but his medicine skill and expertise combined with my computer expertise gets us to sit together with the really big boys in pharmacy, who have so much money they light up their chimney with 500 Euro bills.
Bottom line:
Get into _one_ field that interrests you in CS/IT that you think could go well with what you've got allready. If you've got the brains you won't need a degreed - don't forget: medicine has been around since 10000 years, but computerwise we're still in a stone age, with maybe 100 years of knowlege in the field! It's all about brains and what ideas _you_ come up with. Technologies change and evolve on a half-year basis. Not a good enviroment for a usefull degree, if you ask me.
My partner and I use open source + custom code only and we're 2 people competing and outrunning companies with 100 employees and more - I'd strongly suggest you go that way too. When you're firm enough get yourself a contractor/partner like me
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
I'm Not a doctor, or anything with such a well defined career path. I went back to school (2nd undergraduate degree) to broaden my skill base, and did a little bit of programming as well, but once we'd got past the basics, I was learning much more effectively at my own pace. As a medical doctor, you probably have the capacity to work flexible hours, and go and train yourself up in the direction you want to go in, via a combination of self study and being taught. Looking at the IT jobs around, I'm glad I didn't go in that direction as frankly they mostly look shit, although the independent consultants I know seem to have a good time.
"...we should just trust our president in every decision that he makes and we should just support that." B.Spears 2003
you get to help people, meet people, make a difference and have co-workers who might a) be female b)not generally have serious problems socially
If you are serious about this I would recommend it absolutely. I am a medical doctor with 11 years experience in the UK who has just signed a contract with a top 3 consultancy to design and implement a major medical informatics program. Atleast in the UK the existing state of computerisation in hospitals is dire and a five billion pounds sterling project has just kicked off to bring the NHS up to scratch. There are lots of vacancies for medical doctors with local experience of processes etc.
I am sure with the rash of HIPAA compliance requirements, the situation in the US is similar.
Most of the posters in here are talking about low level programming work, I dont think you should get involved in that. Pick an area that interests you, find a way to improve medical usage of IT, do a Medical Informatics programme or even play with IT at home and have people develop software to your specifications. There are plenty of PDA applications for medical staff but here is always room for more, independent physician practices could do with proper IT integration, EPR software is the pits currently, take your pick.
I have not undertaken formal IT training myself & cant programme but have experience of supervising and designing medical software and processes which is a more productive use of your particular skillset. Good luck.
Ok, you may switch to IT, just be carefull while choosing the thing you'll be doing.
For your situation, stay away from software development "as a developer". There are much better roles for you.
I am currently working in a software company, and our expertise is on medical sector. We provide many solutions, and currently i am working in a health provision system as a developer. We have 3 or 4 doctors in our firm. This number changes from time to time, as we hire some doctors as consultants.The doctors are very important for us, since as developers, we can build the system, but we have very little information about the processes and data the system must use. When our software must offer a medicine instead of another, the logic that's used is very, very complex.(international medicine indexes, and many sector spesific info..) And the doctors are the only guys we can consult about these kind of stuff. Try to design a user interface for a doctor, and you'll have a hard time to figure out what should be on the screen for results of say a surgery.
If you are skilled in programming, or want to be so, work on it, that's fine. But instead of trying to be a programmer, try to be the guy who interacts with customers and the technical guys in the company. Believe me, you'll be important for them..
This way, you can use your domain spesific information, and you'll be more secure against the cycles in the industry. It's much harder to find a doctor with IT information, than to find a programmer without sector spesific info.Developers come and go, but you'll have a better chance of staying where you are.
--
I work IT at a medical center so let me give some observations... Judging by your post name and some search, I am guessing you are a OB/GYN, which I know has a very high 'getting sued 18 years down the line if child has problems', so your desire to 'do something else' is very understandable. In our city, we have several OB/GYN who decided enough was enough and has since quit from the medical group to either retire or go into real estate. I suggest becoming a real estate broker and use your connection as a doctor to do listing and transactions. Being a broker is all about trust, you have the credibility as a doctor to do so. Alternatively, sell your large house (assuming your state has a law against taking away homestead in a lawsuit), and invest in rental properties. You can of course do both. And best of all, you can study for a broker license while still being a doctor.
My relative is a doctor, and she has lots of rental properties which will be her future nest egg, so I know it works.
You've got some sort of medical background, the population is aging, medical breakthroughs are almost monthly, and you want to get into a profession that has become an offshore commodity??
We'll forgive you for smoking a bag of crack before submitting such a ludicrous statement.
Don't worry about the space program. We'll go back to the moon once George Bush discovers the moon has weapons of destruction.
Ergonomica Auctorita Illico!
You may not be aware of this but the fed gov through grants and etc is paying Doctors to go back to school to obtain a CS with a concentration in Bioinfomatics..
Plus the internships generally are with Drug companeis that have offices and labs on campus..
Don't Tread on OpenSource
I would just like to comment that to the best of my knowledge the medical field is the best one to be in. There is a huge demand for personnel, and the pay is outstanding. Whereas the IT industry is getting smaller and pay is dropping.(I have family and friends in the industry and speak from those experiences, not just the numbers reported in the media). I am an adult finishing my CIS degree, and prospects are slim. My MIS professor is leaving this year to complete radiation technology classes to switch to the medical field because she can make more money! And she has done seminars and has textbooks to her credit, along with almost every kind of certification. I myself am considering a move into the medical area, financially speaking I can't see why anyone would want to switch from medical to IT. But if it is what you love go for it, that is what happiness is all about.
...and harder to move to India.
Either
1/Get into the marketing side of medicine and try to transfer from medical marketing (the more snake oil based the better) into the IT marketing game. Communication skills and low ethics are what are required.
or
2/Use medical domain knowledge to specify or introduce new computer systems.
Good luck, I did pre-med, Engineering degree and a Computer Science Masters, but that was when the market was on the up and up, 5-10 years ago. I am now working in a shrinking R&D sector.
Be Free: Free Software Tuition
never stop learning, know what it means to be over worked under staffed and underpayed before you get in, and if you just read something brand new, 5 min later its out of date. And the most important thing, thery is good, but doesn't get you any ware, always know how to apply what you've leanred.
I switched from medicine to computer science in order to scratch a long standing itch, got a CS degree and worked for 10 years in the field. I am now back in medicine earning an intern's salary so I can relearn what I have forgotten.
Yes, a doctor's hours are worse (I have been working up to 120 hours per week) and the responsibility incomparably greater, but at the end of the day, a computer is an innanimate object. Helping people means far more and has far deeper rewards than the (short lived) euphoria of having designed a great program.
If you want to do any kind of computer work, do it in your (very scarce, I know) time as I am doing now.
And yes, as has been mentioned previously, the money and job security are also not to be forgotten.
What exactly are you talking about ? What part of computer science and information science are you interested in ? Computer science (although I don't like these limitative words, CS is not only about "machines") is like medicine, possible positions range from the nurse (no offense) to the highly trained specialist. It is mainly composed of anonymous, indistinguishable and outsourceable programmers, because the quality of the average occidental programmer is the same as in India. And you have small niches where the quality of your academic path is important. I'm in the "software security and reliability" field (planes, trains, cars, nuclear plants ...) : you can't just be a script kiddie in this business. You need a solid academic education on semantics, high level languages, abstract models, formal systems ... I'm definitely not in the same business (and the same level of requirements) as Joe "Average" Programmer.
This post is displayed with recycled electrons
I started working on real-time embedded software, and OS's around 1979. Fun techy stuff. Life is different now - still challenging but a different level of fulfillment. To combine your medical degree with a computer degree opens many areas. Of notable interest would be the ability to merge your medical knowledge with that of a computer degree in a field such as pharamceuticals. One of the biggest challenges is communication between the computer programmer and the customer. Your knowledge across both these areas could prove quite beneficial and reasonably profitable.
1) Think of a good *idea*
2) Implement it in your spare time
3) Try and market it, working for yourself
4) PROFIT!?
5) Only if it works, leave your current job.
There are millions of people who want to work in an IT field. Working for your average employer is unlikely to earn you more than a mediocre salary.
Your only chance of taking off is having a good idea, WORKING FOR YOURSELF, and being able to comit a lot of time into experementing. Keep your current job, work for yourself in the afternoons, and only consider switching if you can sense success.
Why would you bother to switch from being a physician who does actually do something useful to something as completely useless as a computer geek? If you have a life as a physician please think about the boring no-life of the computer geeks and be proud of your occupation that lets you actually help people.
I am a physician too. For me, it was the other way around - I used the profits of my sucessful IT business to study medicine while providing a living for wife and kids.
In both careers I am/was earning reasonably well, a nice 6 figure. Money is not the difference.
The important thing is: do whatever you think you can do well, with *passion*. Do what you would do even if you wouldn't get money for it. Money is just a bonus, your well done work should be satisfying in itself.
For me, this formula worked well. I am still doing some IT contract work on the side for fun and pleasure, bust mostly health related open source projects (like gnumed.net, or drugref.org).Software engineering now is my hobby, medicine my passion, and money just happens. Plenty of it, since my passion for both guarantees "customer satisfaction" which transmogrifies somehow into hard bucks. I have far more patients than I can cope with, and more lucrative IT contract offers than I can even read.
If employment prospects scare you into studying or training for a job you potentially dislike, you have lost before you even start. If you can't achieve what you want in one country, move to another - the world is large, full of opportunities (I have been working on four continents in search of the greenest pasture, and ended up in Australia)
I have a Ph.D. in biology and recently transitioned to a programming job at a major pharmaceutical company. I did this at a time when the market was absolutely flooded with programmers blasting out of the popped bubble. In order to accomplish this I had to be willing to start at the bottom (a low paid contractor) in lieu of demonstrable programming experience, I had to be an excellent programer (and willing to work hard and prove it), I had to combine all of my skills together into a coherent whole, and I had to get a lucky break.
I considered many of the training options that you have and that were suggested in other posts. My plan was to become a Sun Certified Java Programmer as proof that I wasn't a complete technical idiot, do some work on an open source project related to the field, and go from there. I got my lucky break before I took the certification exam, but I believe that it was basically a sound plan.
My science background turned out to be a perfect match for this job. Since I excel in both fields I can tackle problems that no ordinary coder would stand a chance at and no scientist has the time or programming skills for.
As I am now in a position to hire or influence the hiring of people, here are some things I would be looking for if I had your resume on my desk.
- A body of programming work (open source projects or just personal projects, but something I could look at and probe you for knowledge on)
- Some kind of paper proof that you might know what you are doing (Java Certification or some other comparatively difficult certification, a masters in computer science, etc)
- Claimed knowlege of a variety of technologies (Java, XML, HTML, Web Services, J2EE,
.NET, etc). The actual mix you would need would depend a great deal on the actual job, but you should show breadth if possible.
If I then interviewed you I would be looking for things like:I am not trying to sell you on programming for the pharmaceutical industry. This was all just intended to give you a real-world example and to inspire you to find your own niche.
dhk
Just like this guy, I used to be a Doctor.
But I was always interested in other things.
But CS - You gotta be shitting me??
Better you should do what I did,
become a PLUMBER...
You're a doctor...There's enough of us COmputer/IT/IS/Programmer types without a job now as it is, and it will get worse as time goes on and jobs go to India (or elsewhere)....Don't hurt yourself by trying to come in and do something "down the road" when there's bound to be more people more needy than you needing the job.
Uh, 50% of people could be below the median starting salary. And the median is unlikely to be the average, unless you have a truly remarkable data set. (And no, you can't arbitrarily drop outliers.)
tasks(723) drafts(105) languages(484) examples(29106)
Well I'd suggest going into BioInformatics instead. Since it will apply what you already know with the new field.
Good programmers drink beer to relieve job stress.
Great programmers drink hard liquor and work best hungover.
I've spent some time lloking at the Open Courseware stuff. And although my MIT degree is from many years ago, I do have one.
What you see in the Open Courseware looks like a sampling of handouts ("lecture notes"). You'd have as much chance learning engineering from this material as you would learning surgery by reading a textbook. The missing element in both, of course, is interaction with a teacher who can tell you how to really do it, or who can explain how things work in real life. The Open Courseware is a simulacrum of education.
And with the job market in CS being so tight (not just programming, which most posters are talking about, but the engineering, design, etc. branches) any prospective employer will want a real degree from a real university, not a study-at-home substitute.
Imagine this turned around. Imagine I said I'm looking for a career change, and I've always liked biology, I've read some Robin Cook novels, I've looked at the standard medical textbooks and feel pretty comfortable with all that, how do I go about becoming a physician. The standard answer would be "go to medical school."
like the Urologist who was tired of medical work and looked for another trade.
He decided to be a motor (auto) mechanic and did a trade course, and on completion had to pass a practical exam.
The test consisted of removing the engine from a car and stripping it. Then it had to be reassembled and reinstalled in the car.
He was awarded 150 marks and upon asking how he got 150 out of 100 was told that 50 marks were for a perfect removal and strip. 50 were for assembly and refit.
The bonus 50 were for doing it all through the exhaust pipe.
Will Sean Penn play you in the remake? http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hv&cf=info&id=18000 63562
"The prohibition will be strongest when the group is nervous." - Paul Graham
I couldn't agree more about other (seemingly unrelated) skills having a big impact on your employability; I got my first real job in IT -- after only working in a PC Sales shop -- because I had a degree in psychology. I found out later that this was the main reason they employed me, and that they thought it would mean I had better skills in dealing with people in more diverse situations -- i.e manipulating them and their expecatations. Perhaps they were right, but it surprised me, as I would've said: without years of experience (either personal or commercial) or an 'innate' ability, it's just not the case!
Here's how to do it.
Step 1 - Build a time machine
Step 2 - go back to 1990 and find a job in the IT sector
Step 3 - Profit!
I am the Laboratory Information System Director for a large eastern University Medical Center. Physicians with skills in Informatics are at the top of the food chain. Anyone else in IT are at the bottom.
It looks like most of the opportunity in the next few years will be in biotech/pharm. Use your experiance as an MD to gain credibility with one of these companies.
During the downturn I my consulting work dried up. I am now working in oncology clinical trials managment as a software developer. This has two benifits for me: one) I get to ride out the recession working in a hospital, which is very secure work. Two) I get to transition my resume to skills pertaining to the medicing/biotech/pharm. industry. This is a win win. You are in a n even better position to do this as an MD.
Are you affiliated with any local or regional hospitals?
Knock on wood, but we're not outsourcing. Too many bad experiences.
Do you want to continue on in the medical industry? There are PLENTY of opportinities there. If you are affiliated with a local hospital, see about getting on one of the technology commities. They're usually the IT staff who work with Doctors/Nurses/etc to get technology into their hands. Then gradually make your move into IS. No degree necessary.
I cant speak for where you live, but there are tons of opportunities for the medical community folks to work in IT here.
Tom's Hardware. I believe he used to be a doctor.
"No matter where you go, there you are." -- Buckaroo Banzai
Do not consider Purdue University. Been there done that. Bad instruction
If you are a Physician I am assuming you have a large amount of dough or could have that if you want.
Right now is probably the best time ever to find really good computer engineering, software, hardware talent in the U.S. A lot of really good people are looking for work. So if I were you I would get some basic education on areas you may not know as well. I.e. Data modeling, good basic object oriented classes, some Comp Sci history, database Principles, etc. Then start a company with all the good talent around looking for work doing what you enjoy most.
I could think of many areas in medical technology that if good techies were paired up with an actual physician would have extreme potential and it would be very rewarding work.
Find a sofware company specialising in Medical Systems (Medical Records, Diagnostic Aids, Drug Trial analysis etc. etc.). Get a job on the Medical side then having established yourself you can slide over to the CS side.
Niche software companies always need people who are qualified in thier target field.
Old COBOL programmers never die. They just code in C.
You only live once! I am doing the same thing. I am a lawyer and practiced law for 11 years. I am now a full time student doing some required courses to get into a PdD program next year. It has been the best thing I have done in years. If you can't see yourself doing what you are doing now, until retirement, make the change now!
After the dot.bomb there is a plethora of programmers and "IT Professionals" out there, and even the good ones are having problems finding jobs. All I can say is that I'm glad I'm not graduating from college right now.
Of course from what I've heard about the state of medicine right now, I'm not so sure you're any better off.
These days, you can probably get the basics out of a few scant classes, if they're well-taught. Some subject matter you want to be familiar with:
Object-Oriented Design & Development
Some basic algorithms (hashtables, linked lists, etc.)
3 or more languages (C/C++ and Java should be on the list)
Anything above that is just icing. Granted, stuff like Formal Languages or Computer Architecture can really help you understand where you're coming from, but aren't really used every day.
In essence, computer science IS like medicine. You spend a lot of time learning a huge variety of stuff, then you spend 90% of your time doling out penecilin.
:wq
On the other hand, I'm in IT consulting, so I might be biased. I also really don't know that industry. Everything in this book may be wrong.
Doctors make way more than computer folks. Yeah, I know doctors work hard, but they get paid well for it. Computer people work hard too, but their employers have much more control over them. Also, you can't send doctor jobs overseas unless we put in a large bullet train to send sick people over there when they need to see a doctor. Programming jobs, they're outta here thanks to the republicans who are turning their heads the other way while un-american people like Carly send our jobs out (keeping hers here, of course.)
Don't be so sure. Bush has millions of dollars for his re-election campaign. Expect the Democratic candidate to be painted as a closet follower of Osama Bin Laden and go down in flames.
I really hope I'm wrong, but the cynic in me isn't as hopeful.
You might also try Medical Consulting. If the IT work you have been doing for yourself is useful, it will be useful to other doctors. So, if you can't land a job at Harvard or the local University, you can be working in IT for yourself. If you are relatively self sufficient IT wise, you can be helping others.
There's a very real need for clueful Medical IT people. The average private practice is a train wreck of propriatory garbage executed on Windoze. Most of them are plauged with the ususal keylogging viruses and spyware and have virtually zero chance of protecting patient records or being HIPPA complient. I visited one office where the doctors and staff were using Kazaa and had full page porn ads poping up in front of patients. I have also seen windoze done well, but it was a medium size place that could afford a full time IT dude. Free software,of course is cheaper, easier and more secure.
Have you seen GNUMed? They have a nice patient database and are working on assisted diagnosis. It's from Austrailia, so I don't know how well it takes care of Byzant^H^H^H^H US paper work.
Be careful to look before you leap. A man's gotta eat. IT is very competitive. There's plenty of work that needs to be done, but you have a huge pile of BS to wade through in order to get it done right. Every dinky little M$ shareware downloading clerk thinks they are an IT expert. Disruptions in IT are not something the average doctor wants to deal with and most just want to ignore the problem an hope it goes away. Being a doctor, you have a leg up, but you might want to try helping a buddy out over the weekend or vacation before you switch professions.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Leave it to a Physician to seek a formal educational path to a career in IT. Of course, you can't become a doctor through self-study, but you CAN become a programmer. Fortunately, all the information you need to start down the road to a career in IT is available online. I say "start", because the other two elements to a successful career aren't available in any book or on any site: The first is experience writing code and the second is experience dealing with other IT people professionally.
So what are you waiting for? Get to it.
RP
If you have done any bench work in medicine, you would be well advised to look into a M.S. in bio-informatics. With only a little Oracle and Perl, you can work with some of the biological research firms in creating and maintaining the programs that analyze cellular and genetic knockout/ screening data. This is, in contrast to general IT, a growth industry. In fact, it's likely that this industry is going to accelerate its growth, as it is well funded in the worst of times (thanks to the Pharma members) and white hot when rumors of genetic breakthroughs take place.
If you are not a bench scientist, bio-informatics can take the form of computerized medical databases, patient record systems, and epidemiological computer applications. Wouldn't it be nice, for example, if there were well designed computer models for studying the incidence of the "breast cancer gene?" The usefulness of epidemiological data and the power of its analysis is entirely dependent upon well designed computer tools. This area is not as well funded as the cellular and biochemical drug company stuff, but it is, nevertheless, stable and expanding.
Your MD helps you immeasurably in bio-informatics, and if you have clinical or scientific experience, you're only made that much stronger. It isn't as much of a career break as you might wish, but does allow you to use what you already have to your advantage.
There's plenty of IT positions where you have a direct impact on peoples' lives: try working for a large hospital or pharmaceutical business. Look at clinical trials management software, etc - I'm sitting here debugging an ECG trace at the moment...
I would recommend looking into the HIPAA security and privacy regulations, that impact the use and implementation of computer systems that are used to test (or develop) medicines, as well as regulating privacy issues for private-practice doctors and hospitals.
Issues that would have to be addressed include computer security, privacy, data integrity, and others.
Best of all, an actual degree in computer science may not be necessary - a graduate certificate, with credits in computer security may do the job. There are also certification programs in computer security.
I would recommend looking into medical compliance with data security / privacy regulations as a possible area for either technical (or policy) consulting.
I am not advocating giving up the day job, but if you could handle the work load / partition your hours, this could be a side-gig, and if it were to take off for you, you could either bring on subordinates, or make a full-time move later.
The original poster of this issue is invited to e-mail me directly.
Sam Nitzberg
sam@iamsam.com
http://www.iamsam.com
...and beat your wife after he father doesn't pay you enough to marry her.
Just kidding... almost.
You'd be nuts to leave medicine, esp for IT. If you are that gungho, learn to program and get into some medical related development like MRI imaging or some such - where you can be in the code AND know the medical angles.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
There are plenty of companies which need MD's who also can think like a programmer and in which your medical knowledge would be invaluable. In the U.S. there will clearly be a crisis in healthcare as the babyboomers hit there 60's (starts in 2006) and better use of IT will be imperative. For example MEDITECH
Considering your medical background and interest in comptuer science, you may find health informatics to be of interest. You will be able to leverage all of your experience as a physician while breaking in to the field of computer science.
I work closely with the Departments of Health Informatics at Dalhousie University and University of Victoria and have met many of the other people in the field in Canada. They are a good mix of doctors, nurses and computer scientists and are doing some very interesting and releveant work.
You can find more information at http://www.hiww.org/ and by searching for Health Informatics on Google.
I went into computing from broadcasting (TV stuff and deejay) at age 39. It was a gret decision. I spent 25 years at it and now have a third career that I started at age 58. Go for it! Everybody should change careers from time to time--it keeps you alive. Specialization is for insects.
But I wouldn't worry too much about another degree. Just learn the stuff. You can slip over into medical software and have no problem. (I found that a software specialty is the way to go. General programming doesn't work too well.)
Good luck. Stay alive and don't get bored!
Sure, get into IS and watch your entire job market fly over to India. Hell, you don't know how good you have it - you are in a field that is impossible to outsource! No matter what field of work you are in, it will probably be sucky most of the time - be happy yours isn't sucky AND exportable.
Be advised!
Historically, the best time to make a BIG career change is when the economy is good.
Although, your question was too vague to tell if this is what you had in mind.
Whats wrong with you brother...????
I envy you.
I have been (and still do) in IT industry form more tha 7 years and already got almos sick of it.
I'm planning to start a degree on any engineering or physics or any "real" career
I regret i did not considered such a career at firts before starting IT
consider it. believe me: i envy you !!!!!
in 10 years the only IT jobs left in the US will be CIO, Manager of Indian outsourcing or working for defense/nasa contractors. So I would suggest you start working on getting that top secret clearence first. That way, after you get your CS degree you can work for someone like Lockeed Martin, Boeing actually doing programming.
Just some advice keep being a doctor and helping people.
So Long and Thanks for all the Fish.
Lick harder.
I am really interested in building a TV factory in the USA. How would I go about doing that?
UNLESS you Indian and want to go back to India, Don't believe those stupid radio adds you hear about saying that the industry is looking for more IT. IT ISN'T. Companies don't want to pay for IT people, and most will treat you like a black sheep. I wish I had other skills, but I don't and I'm stuck, I will eventually have to go back to college and pay for a second career.
Ad eundum quo nemo ante iit!
..medical software? It's a niche market, and even if you don't code, I'm sure you could bankroll some supercool medical idea. Brainstorm with your doctor buddies, do some market research (or hire some market researchers), and fund the project. Make a piece of software that you would like to use in your own practice, then sell it.
TK
I'm not sure I can advise you how to do it, but I certainly advise you to do it if that will make you happy. I was 2 classes away from a Master's in music when I decided that I really wanted to switch to computer engineering and so I spent the next 2 years taking engineering and math classes and studying 'till 3:00 in the morning in the lobby of the hospital on campus (Shands) because the libraries closed at midnight. In the end, it was worth it. Now I have a Master's in computer engineering and I'm a good way through my Ph. D. I just went to the Career Fair to get a feel for my career prospects and every company I spoke with was willing to hire me now or later with the Doctorate. I decided to stay on since the larger companies advised it, but many of my friends are leaving for high-paying jobs. None of us are likely to get outsourced at this level, exspecially those of us doing Defense work. I do landmine detection and I can promise you they aren't outsourcing anything that requites security clearance :)
So, do what you want to do. If you are a successful person you will be successful at whatever you do. I would suggest anything to do with biomedical engineering because there is alot of money there and your experience as a physician will be an asset to you. My dissertation will likely center on a novel form of nonlinear filtering, which is used in biomedical image processing (along with neural networking and pattern recognition) so I'll likely be knocking on Shands' door again sometime soon.
This time, however, the circumstances will be a tad different!
If you are seriously contemplating a career switch from medicine to technology, please consider the following:
1. Are you looking to actually write code, set up networks, or, rather be more of IT management? It makes a diference. It shouldn't, but it does. Just being able to write great code isn't enough to communicate and organize in a management position. Conversely, being in management is greatly benefited by some serious technical skills. You don't want to have to rely on others to 'give you the gist' of what is going on.
2. Just as, I assume with medicine, you better LOVE technology if you want to do it. The reason is twofold: first, you must be able to produce enterprise level work. Secondly, IT is already loaded with tech guys who DO love what they do and many of them are extermely territorial. Often, you have to be really damn good at what you do just to shut someone up. And, even if you love tech, there will be bad days -- really bad days where you wonder if technology is for you. It can be tedious, mentally challenging and often the massive amounts of work will never even be seen by the users. So, get used to it.
3. Work to get a fundamental understanding of whatever technology you work in - not just a level of 'I can make it work'. For example, don't just use SQL Server because it's easy...you need to really learn the differences between Oracle, MySQL and SQL Server. If you understand the WHY of a system or application behaves a certain way, then the individual problems start to make a lot more sense. And just because someone on Slashdot likes MySQL and PHP doesn't mean it's the best. This goes back to the arrogance of many guys in IT.
4. Learn to communicate to people who don't understand technology as well as you do. Period.
Don't. I would trade places with you in a minute. There is nothing wrong with being a hobbiest.
an ill wind that blows no good
Actually, one of my brothers became a programmer out of high school and his career included remote monitoring AND ADJUSTMENT of pacemakers for one employer, as well as another gig writing the 911 emergency notification system for a rural county in Pennsylvania. (Both of these systems written in solo contractor environments where he had to check and review his own code without another techie.)
He learned, as many good people in the profession do, by 20 years of continuous reading, practicing, and learning the BUSINESS perspectives of every employer he ever had.
You can offshore-outsource the job of converting specs to code. If you have the business knowledge to create specs AND code AND speak to business people on their own terms, there still looks to be a profession here, as non-techie Joe businessman still needs to talk to a human in person. (Until we finally get a decent videophone, that is.)
Live Long and Prosper - Thanks Leonard. You are missed.
Until instant, free antipodal transport has us getting our checkups in Hyderabad, doctors will still be employed in America. Even if you do, perhaps voluntarily, go unemployed for a few months, changes in human architecture won't make you unemployable.
Yea, no really, how did such a great troll get a top level posting?
Become a licensed electrician. You'll make more money. Your knowledge won't be worthless in 5 years. You'll be able to get union protection.
And they can't outsource your job to India.
I won't even think about getting a CS degree now... unless you don't live in the US...
The best bet for you would be nono-tech...
if your already a Doctor it my be a great switch... Take some Engineering classes and see if you like it... if so get into nono-tech... Thats what the US will be into very strongly by the time your ready to jump in....
Predictably, most of the posters here are relativly low level programmers or 'admins'. Ignore them. You will need a degree for any meaningful job. The meaningful jobs will always be there for qualified people. Don't go for 'IT' (as in MSCE, etc.) theses are usually minimally qualified people for one type of work. True, in the 90's they made in the 60 to 80 K range, but business is waking up to the fact that they couldn't really perform. Hence the fear that they will be 'outsourced' to India, or somewhere else where minimally qualified bodies can be gotten for a low wage.
If you are fascinated by how computers work, then go ahead and go for a masters in CS, otherwise, look to another part of industry. Engineering, particularly EE or Biological are always good. If you do, though, keep your current credentials up. It will not only look good on a resume, but if you decide that medicine wasn't really so bad, you can always go back.
I had a friend who was a Doctor in Idaho, when his wife divorced him, he decided that all the time he spent treating patients was at fault. (Like many physicians, he worked 70 or more hours a week.) He wanted to change his life. He made a complete change. moved to another state, and started teaching science at an inner city school. You know, where he could really make a difference. After a couple of years, he got fed up with the lack of support from parents and administration, the petty politics of high school pecking orders, etc. Now, he is back to practicing medicine in a small town that sorely needed a doctor. He would have done it sooner, but he had let his certification slide, and had to get it renewed. That took over a year.
No matter what you do, there are drawbacks. anything gets old. I'd say, go for real engineering. A Master's level is the minimum level you should shoot for, expect to take about 2 years for most fields. Look first to find what interests you, then go for it. BUT leave yourself an exit strategy
FYI, I am a Registered Engineer (PE). The work is always interesting, but I do recognize that anything gets old after a long enough time. If you really want to change, plan on more college. At least two years, as I said. You might decide that you'd like to stay in Medicine, but specialize. or, combine Medicine and Engineering. Research is also an area where there is always a fresh challenge.
Good Luck
Sorry, your experience is anecdotal and deosn't give you enough information to judge accurately.
He was just replying to the previous anecdote. If one looks at studies instead of anecdotes, Canada creams the U.S.
They live longer, they are happier with their system, their doctors are happier though making less money. I'll leave you to google, those keywords should be sufficient.
In the war of anecdotes the U.S. wins, but not in the world of fact. There is a reason the U.S. is the only first world country with a pure market approach to health care but spends twice as much as the next country per capita for lower care levels. (Hint, it isn't because market approaches are the hammer to solve every problem)
I concur... if your a doctor and you're contemplating changing to the IT world, then get thyself ASAP to an MRI machine, stick your head into it, and have a good hard look at the scanned results. If that shows nothing abnormal, then report immediately to the toxicology lab and pee in a cup, maybe it's just all those free pharmaceutical samples clogging up your neuroreceptors. If that's not the case, then go see a psychiatrist.
"The worldwide shortage of doctors is more the result of the various acreditation programs (AMA, etc) that manages to keep students who want to study medicine out of the schools."
Why does the US have so many doctor's per capita?
HINT: ITS NOT BECAUSE US PEOPLE LOVE HEALING MORE
Answer: Because doctors can charge what they wish, doctors can make a lot of money. Market forces say that people go where the money is. Hence, the US has a lot of doctors.
And honestly, if you can afford health coverage in the US, we have the best in the world. Its expensive, but its good. In fact, because I have full coverage with a private insurer, I can see any specialist I need to within 24 hours.
You said that you're interested in computers and technology. I think the most relevant intersection between those and medicine would be bioengineering. You don't want to program a computer to massage data. You want to build machines that hook up to people, whether those are prosthetics, monitors, diagnostic aids, and so on. It used to be, twenty years ago, that there were whole bunches of books that would teach you electronics. I don't think they're there anymore. In any case, once you know basic electronics, you'll want to move into signal processing. Take some courses. --Rob
Towards the Singularity.
Forget programming, millions of people can do that -- but not many people can mix your two areas of expertise.
Berto
I have a graduate degree in Mechanical Engineering. I also have a smattering of formal computer science education. This combination has proved invaluable. I basically work in automation research now, and the number of people in this field that "know" how to program but can't prove an algorithm or build an abstraction layer is staggering. The software they turn out is awful. The number of people that can design good software, but don't understand how to control a machine in an industrial environment is also staggering.
I don't write software (except for Matlab), but the understanding that I have of the CS field lets me communicate effectively with the people that don't understand machines, but do develop software. This has given me an excellent advantage in my position, and created a rather exciting career.
The moral: even if you don't go full out new degree in CS, a fair amount of education in the field could create the opportunities for a career change that you are looking for. Maybe.
"Uh... yeah, Brain, but where are we going to find rubber pants our size?" --Pinky
Leverage your knowledge of both industries by charging $$$ to tell people how to be HIPAA compliant. This will require in depth HIPAA knowledge of course but the docs are available. You should probably start learning how to develop and manage database applications.
Oddly, we've been looking for people who sit at the crossroads of clinical knowledge and CS/IT for quite a while. Boring details are at www.patientkeeper.com, but the jobs look something like this:
Here's the skinny:
Clincical Product Manager is possibly the hardest, most satisfying, and most visible job at PK. Product management is the ultimate cross-functional leadership role. Through intellectual horsepower, interpersonal skill, domain knowledge, technical depth and attention to detail you'll be the most respected voice in the organization for your product. Sales, marketing, software engineering, QA, customers, and senior management will all want to know what you think. The job: Design and manage an enterprise clinical application, acquire and synthesize wisdom from customers, clinical experts, engineers, and doctors, and formulate a viable plan for success. A successful tour of duty in product management positions you for a leadership role almost anywhere else in the company and is a time-honored path to senior management (viz. Microsoft's Program Manager role). The downside: high visibility, high pressure, responsibility to make a serious difference and enough rope to hang yourself if you screw it up.
The position requires three major skill sets:
Technical aptitude: you don't need to be a software engineer, but you have to be able to take one to lunch. You must understand, extend, and work with the technical issues as they impact your product. You must master all of the customer-facing details of a product so that seemingly minor issues are NOT solved by otherwise clueless software developers. That takes a lot of horsepower.
Clinical aptitude: we're an enterprise (i.e. hospital) clinical applications company. Customers want to feel that you are capable of understanding physician, nurse and administrative workflows and can discuss the product issues with them in their language.
Social aptitude: this role has been identified as having minimal official resources, maximimum responsibilites and the maximum number of interested parties (ie, executives). You'll sink or swim in this role based on how well you can command the respect of the rest of the organization, for that will determine how well you'll be able to rally various constituencies around your plan. It ain't easy, but it is great training for completing these tasks in a larger pond. Intellectual bandwidth required.
Realistically, nobody has all three skillsets out of the gate. You need to have the social aptitude and one of the two others (technical or clinical) "out of the box", and be able to shore up your weaknesses on the third. Clinical depth is particularly prized.
"If one looks at studies instead of anecdotes, Canada creams the U.S."
Mostly of these studies are comissioned by proponents of a single-payer (i.e. government) system or the Candian government.
Every study like this is intended to prove a particular point of view.
Or do you think people go around doing "research" like this just for general knowledge?
If you just go out and get a bunch of certificates, then you won't get anywhere. If you aquire a CS degreee you will at least be taken seriously.
Take my company for example. We are hiring small numbers of people. Requirement 1 on all new job applications: CS degree or equivalent. It weeds out the certificates real fast.
Consider fields that require knowledge of both medicine and Computer Science. This means that you should look at (at least) Graphics and Database management within the Computer Science Field.
Somehow, I think that these 2 subfields will relate best with Medical products. When I was going thru school, I had to choose one, I couldn't get both. I chose database and am gainfully employed at it after 20+ years.
You do not want to try and get into things like compiler design, network topology and the like. These subfields will only put you in the mill with all the rest, and not give you a chance to leverage your medical background.
There are other subfields for each of the above categories, you will have to decide the relevance of each.
I was in your position 10 years ago, with an active Family Practice and a love of computers. I took advantage of a family move for my wife's career to change mine from medicine. I looked hard at CS, but ultimately decided that I'd be happier _using_ computers to do something, rather than supporting computers for those doing the research. So I ultimately ended up in Biochemisty/Biophysics researching protein crystal structures. It provides plenty of opportunity to work with computers in depth, while I still feel like I'm pushing back the limits of our knowledge. And the medical background has been quite valuable. It has been a fun move for me.
Good luck. Duke out.
Why does this bring to mind Michael Jordan deciding he wants to play baseball?
Grass always appears greener in someone elses yard.
Stick to saving lives... in the long run you will be thankful
And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make
IMHO that's about it. Get an extra computer; install a Linux distro; start messing around with ALL the commands; give yourself little projects to do like setting up a FTP or HTTP server; once you've done it with one tool try the project again with another. The only way you're going to learn something like Linux is to just sit down and force yourself to learn by way of personal projects. Once you have some familiarity with Linux, start taking CS courses. The book called "Learning Perl" is a good place to start to orient yourself with programming. Take a C for Engineers class (much better than any of the CIS courses I ever took). The skies the limit. Best of luck.
Funny... this is more or less my situation, although I've advanced a little further. I hold an MD and have always loved computers and programming. I decided to enter the field, but instead of studying for a CS degree I decided to get a MS in Health Informatics.
Please don't listen to the SlashTrolls. This can be a very interesting field, and the majority of the people working in it are Computer Scientists. I have discovered that my medical background made me very valuable and useful. Clinical experience is VERY welcome.
I've also become a member of The American Medical Informatics Association and am currently a part of the Open Source Working Group, pushing for the embracement of Open Source in all things Medical.
If you want to ask some questions, please feel free to email me.
No
and are a detriment to the working class. Call hippies and other dopers a "lumproletariat" -- they are just that: working class non workers.
But yes, all capitalism is immoral and unethical and i'd bet my life on it.
First let me say, while it is clear that many respondants do not appreciate the emotional, psychological and personal costs associated with a profession in the medical arts, I understand why you might wish to change careers. The first thing you must do is identify what aspect of CS appeals to you. Do you want to be a programmer? How about a sys admin? There is no title "Comprehensive Technology Geek". Just like medicine, you must determine what speciality you wish to pursue. Next, determine the certifications that will provide credentials in your chosen field. Like the medical boards, these certifications will establish your credibility. The requirements of the certs will define your course of preparation. I hope you like to read.
You really don't need yet more formal certification. A medical diploma and a bit of initiativate should be enough to get you in the door of a biological/medical research establishment to do all sorts of IT work: programming, cluster setup, data analysis.
The combination of bio/medical skills and computer skills/interests are surprisingly hard to come by.
Just knock on a few doors: "Hello, I have a medical diploma and useful skills and interests in IT. I'd like to work for you to learn and would be willing to take lower pay for a while to do it." they'll be falling all over each other to hire you.
"I wish *my* doctor would switch to IT. Instead, she remains an incompetent GP."
Then switch to the other 200 choices you have available.
Oh wait...this is Canada where you don't have that choice... Nevermind. Be content that your system is more efficient and better *ON AVERAGE*.
Too bad you're not average.
- Amateur radio.
- Model railroading.
- Knitting.
medicine...maybe I should become a doctor.
I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them. Isaac Asimov (1920 - 1992)
You should have no problem breaking into the industry being a doctor/computer scientist. There is a large need for medical programs or biotech programs.
If you are self teaching yourself, start with an easy language like VB and learn how to program. Basically use a nice simple language to figure out logic paths. Next, read up on data structures and numerical methods. You must know the data and how it is used to solve problems. You don't need to be a master of writing these algorithms but you should be able to understand how they work and be smart enough to figure out how to implement them in a programming language.
The next step would be to study relational technology. Information systems is where the work is at.
Once you have learned the above and created a decent portfolio of applications. You should have no problem combining the doctor/computer scientist field.
I am doing the opposite actually. I am a computer scientist learning to become a health physicist!
My current supervisor had a PhD, in Botany I think. He was a college professor who taught as an adjunct at a few local community colleges.
In the 1980's he just dropped it all and started working for AT&T Bell Labs as an engineer. Nobody knows why, and if pressed he says he doesn't want to talk about it.
Now telecom, especially here in NJ, is in dire straits. We've endured pay cuts, reduced benefits and very long hours just to hold onto our jobs. A lot of failing telecom companies are just a stones throw away from our building - Tyco, Tellium, among others, and we know for a fact that there are about 4,000 well-qualified engineers out there who would love to move into our nice warm cubes if we don't watch our backs.
But, I digress. My point is, he switched from a career in Academia to software engineering and now I'm pretty sure he cries himself to sleep every night.
Dude, you are a doctor, what are you thinking?! Unless you want to be one of those physician-consultants who help nail down requirements for medical equipment like MRI machines or something, don't ruin a good thing!
- kengineer
Move to india and get a job there - it's pretty clear that even unskilled, clueless people can get jobs as programmers there. Oh, wait, you can't, because they won't allow permanent immigration if you're going to get a tech job! Yet we allow tens of thousands of Indians to come here and take our jobs!
We need to cancel the H1B and L1 visa programs, and revoke existing visas. It's not like anyone really wants to move to India, but fair is fair.
Nice a fellow Prarie home companion listener! Everyone makes a good point though. The world needs in general to restructure because there are too many tech workers an not enough demand for tech. I have a CS/EE BS degree and I hoped to do Unix Sys Admin or Embeded programming with that. Right now I am considering general electronics repairman because the market is so bleak. For the most obscure job expect a minimum of 100 applicants. My advice to all of you is stay in school or your current field/career. Don't quit your day job. Lastly the Tech fields and especially the computer field requires an encredible ammount of patience. It is extremely stressful in other ways that a physician might feel stress. In computers your patient doesn't always give you the feedback you need to fix them up. Your work is demanding and has health risks(carpel tunnel, back issues from sitting extended periods, ect). A doctor can feel stressed because you have a human life on your hands. A computer technician, programmer, sys admin feels the same stress because you have millions of company dollars on your hand. If you hoped to change careers because you didn't like the stress or hours of being a doctor your in for a rude awakening as a computer professional.
There is or can be built a machine that can simulate any physical object. -Church-Turing principle
You've gotta be kidding. Stay with a career path that is more fulfilling, i.e. anything but IT.
I'd have a personalized plate on my car, but "toxic bachelor" won't fit into 7 letters.
How can an old newcomer break into the industry?
When you figure it out, please let those of us already in the industry know. And no, I don't wish to relocate to India.
Snooze and you lose your sushi.
Like some of the other posters said, the industry is being outsourced. I myself was thinking of going the opposite route. I'm a 34 year old software engineer and would love to be a doctor some day. Is this possible at my age?
My advice? Stick with medicine. IT is a sunset industry, that is, unless you want to move to a developing country. With all the baby boomers retiring and getting old, medicine is poised for huge growth. If you really must choose another field, pick something with more growth potential than IT.
'He who has to break a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom.' -- Gandalf to Saruman
Some thoughts that occur to me immediately:
1. You're leaving an industry that pays well, and
is guaranteed to expand as American average ages
increase. You're going to an industry that's been
hit hard by the recession and where wages are
dropping because of international competition.
Is this financially wise?
2. Do you understand what your new potential
career is all about? "Be careful what you ask for, you might get it." Programming is about
careful attention to intricate and arcane
details. If you do your job well then everything
just works and it's completely hidden. The ability
to do it right is almost never under your control.
If you do it badly then you're "that jackass who
can't even write a simple program", even though
it's NOT simple. You're giving up a job where
you're respected for one where you're an
interchangable cog that's blamed for management's
failures?
3. If you have enough money to do it without
becoming just another hack programmer and to
develop new products yourself it can be great.
If not, stay where you are!
-- Programming with boost is like building a house with lego. It's a cool but I wouldn't want to live in it
Move to India?
To the poster:
You are qualified as a Medical Doctor. Go to a lab like the one I work in, a combination of Electrical/Biomedical research. You're very qualified from a medical side, you can take classes at the school (there is probably one near you too, so you probably won't have to move) Get a job doing research, and take classes on the side. You can get publications and patents, and it is a good use of your medical background as well.
I'm assuming you're not worried about money, and this route will probably not pay much. You will be doing engineering and the firmware or GUI side of CS likely, but you were a little vague in the post.
Good Luck!
I really wish there was a way to find out how many of the people complaining about the IT industry here actually have CS/EE degrees and how many don't. I have a feeling most of the complaining is coming from people without (much) formal education who got along easy during the boom time.
Gots to love socialized medicine! Make it virtually free, and yes, Virginia, people will line up for 6 months to get an xray.
Thank god that the US is not going the way of socialized medi.... HEY WAIT! DAMN!!!!
clincal informatics or biomedical informatics. Both of these fields are in dire need of people with a combination of medical and cs backgrounds. My suggestions would be to look at Vanderbilt's biomedical informatics program . You would only need a few pre-reqs and it leads to a M.S. or Ph.D in the field. Further, they have a program that is specifically tailored for a M.D. getting into the field. Stanford, Utah, and Columbia round out the top schools in this field. Further, there is no shortage of jobs as it is still in its infancy!
I'm a low paid software developer who has seen 60% of my employers software developers fired in the last 10 months. I'm pretty good at telling when I have a fever and don't feel well. How can I become a physician by reading articles on the web?
Run and catch, run and catch, the lamb is caught in the blackberry patch.
If you decide to do this, you may want to (As I am sure mentioned in the earlier posts) mixing fields. You are a Dr, which means you have a breadth of experience in the Medical profession. The Medical devices/Software field is booming right now. It may be a good fit for you.
The days of the pure US Programmer, who only writes code are going over seas. In this country, programming skills alone don't cut it. Saying you know C/C++ and can write Windows/Unix applications in these times will get you a "Big Deal ?" Response from many in industry, especially if you are a new CS Grad. The focus in the US is going to become what you can apply those skills to.
So in your case, being a Dr, and then pursuing a SW development job may be a good ticket. You may want to consider mixing SW and HW (i.e. get a Computer Engineering Degree or take some Electrical Engineering Courses) as the Medical Devices industry is huge and you have a great background you can apply. This way you can help design embedded SW and work with the HW as well.
If I was a Medical Devices Company, looking at the Resumes of 100's of candidates to hire, and found one that had the Computer skills I needed, plus was a Doctor I would be very inclined to call you in for an interview.
Just my 2 cents !
-Chris
... do you really want to work for $12 an hour with close to 10 years of experience, industry certifications, being on-call every second week - when you can't even leave your home?
You need a psychiatrist, not a career change.
Since most everyone here has been bitching about jobs moving to India, saying there aren't any good first world CS jobs anymore, I thought I'd offer an anecdotal counterpoint.
We're located in San Jose, and we're hiring good software developers pretty much as fast as we can find them. The challenge is that most of the candidates we see aren't all that qualified.
The vast majority of people in this business are undertrained and underqualified; they got their start during the boom when anyone who could string two lines of PERL together was a "Software Engineer". Now that VCs aren't pouring money into bottomless pits any more, the artificially inflated demand has subsided, but there are still lots of "Software Engineers" out there who haven't figured out that their former titles don't really qualify them to do the jobs the employers need them to do. This imbalance will eventually work itself out, but per the 400+ postings here, it's painful in the short term.
IT roles are definitely leaving the US. Some sustaining engineering roles are as well. But most tech companies still rightly perceive that their next generation projects - the R part of R&D - are central to their strategic advantage and can't be outsourced. If you're good enough to be a part of those efforts, you'll find work.
Asbestos jacket on.
ie.
MyProject
C Programmer
HisProject
Java Programmer
HerProject
DBA
"Thanks to the remote control I have the attention span of a gerbil."
As a few people have suggested, why not try combining both? Someone suggested informatics. That sounds research based. EBM is about providing information to General Practitioners (mostly).
If your expertise is more face to face than research, EBM might be the go.
Try The Centre for Evidenced Based Medicine for an idea of what it's about.
You would of course have to learn a lot of CS first, but you might want to look for a field that is hiring (in case you don't read the "funny" replies) and where you can add to your skills base instead of replacing it. EBM might be just that field. You might also be able to get a start using your existing skills while learning about the CS side of things.
Good luck.
I'm sure there are plenty of companies out there that would love to have a CS person that has a strong background in medicine. You would probably have valuable insight that a normal CS person wouldn't have because of your experiences.
I have a Doctor friend and one thing i've noticed is that they have alot of contacts in the pharmaceutical industry. I would think that some of these companies are developing software for your industry and would be looking for someone with your experience.
"Thanks to the remote control I have the attention span of a gerbil."
A lot of the comments about outsourcing and industry woes are right on target. A major factor is industry pressure on government to allow anyone, anywhere to come into this country and be an engineer (We have engineer shortages, help us Congress!). Large corporations outsource entire major projects to India, Yugoslavia, etc. I'm not knoockin them, those countries have some fantastic engineers and they will work for peanuts.
But all is not about money. Sometimes you have to chase what you enjoy.
My suggestion is to go into engineering as it intersects with medicine. This way you can leverage your existing knowledge while you get engineering experience. For example, I used to run a company that built equipment for handicapped kids and I would have loved to have a MD on staff who was learning engineering.
A degree in engineering is not absolutely necessary so if you can follow the open courseware from MIT, go for it.
Sure hospitals are not currently outsorcing patients to India or China. But US can import lots of guys like
Doctor Nick Riviera from those places.
I agree that what you propose is the only viable long term solution, but to get there, there must be some limits on exploitation (which I don't see to much of in IT, but is rampant in manufacturing).
All laws pertaining to the treatment of workers in the US should be followed for all goods and services imported to the US to avoid a tariff. EX: workers in sweatshops must be in conditions that OSHA would approve of and must be paid at least our minimum wage corrected to the local cost of living + overtime if applicable. Failing these conditions would cause a tariff to be placed on that good (or service) that is being imported.
This would both ensure that we are not exploiting foreign workers by askinng them to work in condiditons that we would not let our own work in, and allowing the market to determine how the work should be distributed, while improving the plight of the american worker.
"I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
IT DOES save lives. I was a MIS Director for a medium sized county in Pennsylvania. One of my initives was to make our 911 center more responsive. They now have a start of the art system which has proven to save time, and probably lives. However I do agree that during the mid 90s when I was in college, IT was the big thing. All the media raved about was how much IT people were getting. So, the market became flooded with idiots who have no clue what they are doing just because they saw dollar signs. Now since this flood of new people have developed, along with the economy still being down (IT is the first to go in a sagging economy), you should really stick to it has a hobby. Or do some work on the side. What is really scary is software and hardware nowadays are so fool proof, alot of IT people aren't needed. What's weird is I always had a passion for animals and always wanted to become a Veterinarian. Maybe we could help each other out?
but they are pretty close.
Consider my (anecdotal) experience: of my fellow 2003 CS Master's and PhD graduates (from a Big Ten school) I knew exactly one on the day of graduation who had a job...
and it was IT. Yeah, there was some programming involved but it wasn't CS (and it definitely wasn't R&D). I've kept in touch with my fellow grads and I only know one who is actually employed in CS (as a prof at the small midwestern college he got his undergrad from). The rest of us are in various degrees of software wrangling.
When folks talk about the golden pastures of CS and the first principles (algorithms, finite automata, OS, arch) they don't seem to realize how few CS thinkers the world needs (or can employ). Somebody before compared CS and IT as the difference between desgining cars and changing the oil. Well, no shit. But riddle me this: how many vacancies are there in the world of auto engineering? Hell, how many jobs are there total? Pure CS is the domain of universities. The other 0.1% are from the giant computer firms and the government... who end up hiring those same uni profs anyway.
The fact is the only dollar making value of most CS degrees is to change people's oil. No one's paying folks to stand on street corners doing algorithm analysis. That's why so many CS undergrads are trying to get into grad school: they think it'll let them escape codemonkeydom or unemployment. But then they're just trying to get a piece of a niche field.
What is music when you despise all sound?
CAn'T CompreHend SARcaSm?
an H2.
The cesspool just got a check and balance.
No! Lick softer!!
Get a masters in math, computer science, or engineering and work for a company producing software and systems for the medical industry.
These companies prefer employees with intricate knowledge of healthcare processes. GE Medical comes to mind; lots of engineers there.
It's amazing how many software products are out there for the medical industry. With this growing trend, there will always be a need for people who can specialize with both a medical background and a computer background. I think your best bet would be working for one of those companies, as they would appreciate your backgrounds, both medically and technically.
Make everybody pay a portion of their bills.
You can't force everybody to eat right and exercise, so the alternative is to make them pay for using too much.
Which defeats the whole purpose of socialized medicine.
This is a very personal subject for me, because now, today, I am starting the process to reenter university for a CSE degree. I understand the problems with the job market right now. Frankly, it's frightening. I am married and kidless, and the idea that I could doom my family to misery in the future by getting a worthless degree is a Treehouse of Horror-worthy nightmare. I am not as skilled and specialized as the doctor who started the thread. How could I be? I agree, a doctor in a computer field can basically write their own ticket. What am I to do? I have spent a lot of time in university getting a broad, fulfilling education (in Linguistics, Math, and English, mostly), but I am not interested in pursuing any of those things the way I have turned on to CS. In many ways, that broad education has felt like incremental preparation for computers (learning languages, manipulating numbers), but it is not taking me anywhere fast. I should add, too, that I am not interested in pursuing some American dream where I live in a dream house and eat my lobster. Keep the billions, I am not looking for anything like that. What I am interested in, as far as work is concerned, is supporting my family and doing something I enjoy, a lot. So my question is, how hard is it to do that in CS? Am I really going to eat my degree for food on the streets of Seattle ten years down the road? If I am pursuing science emphases or further education at the Master's or Ph.D. level, am I good to go or dead man walking? Is my variety of skills something CS companies are really interested in, or is it just not good enough?
Q: What did the comedian say to the crowd?
A: If I knew, this joke would be funny.
Switching from medicine to CS/IT mjust to do it is like switching cars from Ford to GM for no other reason than to do it. Without a reason and plan, you'd end up throwing yourself into the pool with everyone else.
Consider how you could best serve yourself and the field by combining the two. Medical Informatics is already overloaded, due to the fact that it's worth the enormous prices charged and which medical systems can pay. What else can be done which is not as advanced?
How about telemedicine? Send the nurses out on the road to remote patients, with networked laptops that carry various digital versions of physio measurements. They collect the data, network it back to the doctor at the office, he tells them what to do, job is done. I did a master's thesis on this, and the field hasn't progressed significantly in the 10 years since.
Don't throw away your edge is all I'm saying. Use it.
"I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid." -- Bishop 341-B
Teach yourself a Real Programming Language, preferably C or C++. Then get a book about data structures / algorithms. Next read up on number theory.
Throughout this period you should be writing experimental programs in all the various regions of programming - math, file I/O, interactivity, etc.
4th get yourself "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs" by Abelson, Sussman, and Sussman. Once you've learned C and gone through learning Lisp from this book, you'll be set to learn any programming language at all.
Your next task is learning low-level instructions. I suggest MIPS, or a simple subset thereof.
Next you'll want to pick up introductory books on networking, computer graphics, and AI. Once you've finished those, get the Dragon book and write a compiler (but don't use Fortran).
Ok, now you're almost a computer scientist.
The last three steps are:
Pick up the camel book, wonder why you bothered with the rest of it.
Get a job writing telemarketing tools in visual basic and wonder why you bothered with anything.
Get outsourced to India and fall back on your physician's skills, clusterbomb slashdot et. al. for sparking your unattainable dream.
Yvan Eht Nioj!
Learn programming and database design and then develop medical systems based on your computer and medical knowledge. Go into business for yourself and sell it to other doctors. By the time you graduate there won't be very many IT jobs left, so you will have to start up your own business.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
Think of the advantages:
-You probably have some ideas of what kind of devices are needed.
-You probably have access to a number of wealthy investors (doctors) that can provide funding and/or expertise and/or insight into market needs.
-The barrier is steep: trials and approvals, patents, etc., so though it may be hard to get one to market, it's not like a rival can easily copy your design and charge less for it.
-If not mech. engineering, than maybe biomed software or some other usefule software that could be sold to a captive market.
I've read several stories about physicians/engineers who have followed this path, had a personally challenging/rewarding career, and made many millions in the process. If I had the time and money, that's what I would do.
Outside than that, you don't really need a degree to get into Technology. I know someone with a PhD. in psychology that quickly rose to the ranks of Project Manager/Consultant for a medical software company. The fact that she's a "Doctor" - though not medical - holds a certain degree of credence with clients that's not possible with your average programmer, engineer, or middle manager.
Check out http://linuxmednews.com. Lots of good info and links to projects there.
You'll want to sign up for the open health mailing list at: http://www.openhealth.com/en/healthcare.html
Well, unlike some professions where your diploma maps to your job, Software Development doesn't seem to be that way.
The office I work in has 3 programmers with Computer Science degrees. The rest of the programmers have credentials in:
PhD in Particle Physics (1)
Geologist/chemist (1)
Marine Corps Corporal (1)
Restaurateur (1)
Architecture (2)
Mathematics (1)
We even used to have a guy here with a pre-med bachelors who programmed with us for 3 years then went and got his MD!
I'm one of the guys with the background in Architecture. I'd suggest taking specific classes. Java, some app server, etc. Then get certified. "Sun Certified Java Web Component Developer" plus having the understanding of how to work with people that you must have after so many years as a doctor goes a long way in a job interview.
Everything I've learned in order to become a well-paid engineer with very happy clients was taught to me by electricians, toolmakers, millwrights, other engineers, and machine operators.
I don't possess any arcane knowledge, except what I picked up. I'm not any smarter than any of these people.
The one difference I've been able to identify so far is that the Engineer takes responsibility.
If you go into the plant and get stuff done--and stand up for the hit when it doesn't get done, then you're 90% there.
The rest is just engineering. And, frankly, engineering is not that hard. It's just thousands and thousands of details.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, it doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
One possibility for somebody with your background is to get involved with medical robotics, perhaps getting an MS or PhD. I know my own university has several projects in the area to create things like robot surgery, robot care assistants, and so forth. I'm sure these sorts of programs probably have a shortage of medical professionals who are also technically astute.
I am in a boat going the exact opposite direction you are. I am an 8 year owner of a CS degree. I have spent the last 2 years applying to Medical Schools and will begin matriculation in the fall of 2004.
You will find absolute frustration in the IT industry. CS or otherwise. One huge difference you will find is that the people who you will work with come from a far more diverse background(technically not ethnically). These days anyone can pick up a "... for Dummies" book and know enough to be very dangerous and to even talk their way into a decent job. The effect unfortunately is that you have an industry full of people who were self taught and have little training in common. At least in Medicine you have much more in common with your fellow physicians due to the intense scrutiny before being accepted to medical school and while every med school is different, they really teach the same things.
I think my technical expertise will help me tremendously in my medical training and beyond. I doubt though that your medical training will help you to the same degree in IT/engineering.
Never the less good luck to you.
I'd heartily recommend exploring the computer biz. It's fun and it's enjoyable. And it can be as well-paying, if not more so, than part of the medical field.
Take the nay-saying here with a grain of salt. People are a bit jaded having gone through one of the worst double-whammies in history (the dot-com bust, and the outsourcing fad).
Myself, I started more than 20 years ago. I've never taken a single computer course in my life; nor do I have any certifications - nor will I ever get any. Computers are my hobby and my job. I consider myself more fortunate than most people in that regard.
I'm also much more skilled and better paid than most of my competition because of this. My hourly rate (I'm a consultant and have been one for about 15 years) has actually gone up since the dot-com boom. Though, yes, I was only charging reasonable rates (~$90 per hour) during the boom, not the exhorbitant ones. I'm now charging over $100. And getting business. People come to me for solutions. I used to compete with the best consultants in Silicon Valley. Now I'm competing with people all over the world. And I'm getting the gigs I want - the only question is the rate. Most choke on that. Which is good. You want to weed those ones out.
I've also done some of the leading work in this field. You're using stuff I've either done, or had a hand in if you are reading this.
My advice - just do it.
Even with the outsourcing, even with the lousy job market, if you really love it, you'll be happier. And you'll probably be good at it.
It won't be easy at first. And there will be difficulties. But if you you really love it, that will carry you through the tough times.
The best advice I could give you is to be actively involved in an Open-Source project that interests you. Preferrably several. But just start out focusing on one.
You would be surprised at how well this opens doors. Forget certifications, forget degrees. Just show what you can do. To everyone.
It puts you WAY above your competition when you can walk into an interview and say that "I just had one of my patches accepted"; especially if it's in a related technology.
I unfortunately rate doctors just behind lawyers who are just behind politicians who are just behind beauracrats as people who are necessary evils. Somewhere in there are the stupid and ignorant people, closed minded bigots, pessimistic negativists, and the gullible people who believe everything they read in the newspaper or see on TV. I could go on about GreenPeace, flaming liberals, professional activists, and social butterflies -- but I'll give it a rest. You seem to have made my point.
Haven't you been noticing the unemployment rate of CS people?
The point being that computers are changing, evolving, growing, melding, and messing up too fast for a CS to handle -- because CS gives you the basics, behind the scenes, digital crap that isn't real world.
Keep your hobby as computers and your profession as medicine -- we'll all be happier.
Others have already mentioned a number of areas where the combination of fields could be valuable: bio-informatics, prosthetics, etc. Another one not mentioned is much more mundane but much needed and potentially profitable: hospital billing systems. If you've ever had too many medical bills and looked very closely at them, you've noticed that they are full of errors. Also, if you look at the want ads, you may notice that there appears to be a need for computer people with experience in hospital systems.
It's not very sexy, but rationalizing insurance and hospital-related billing procedures could be a nice niche for someone.
My father is a recently retired physician. He would always tell me to *never* enter the profession due to today's extremely litigious environment. Everybody's always looking to get their piece of the hospital because they see some random medical malpractice story on 20/20. I can't count the number of times my father had to be in court to testify on the behalf of the hospital. He was never involved in a case that didn't go in the Hospital's favor, but going to court on a regular basis is never in the job description. And the insurance costs are pretty ridiculous... I think he had to forfeit around 1/3 of his salary (after taxes, of course) to pay for malpractice insurance alone. It's pretty insane.
:(
So, naturally, I decided to enter the safe, lucrative field of IT
-n-
communism no worky
stop cryin
First, you have to learn the basics about computer architecture and computer languages. You need to know what a compiler does, what an interpreter does, and what an operating system does. You need to know how programs are organized in memory, thing such as the difference between heap allocated and stack allocated memory. I can't really recommend a good book about these things because I have never found one. Maybe someone else can recommend one.
/. but I would recommend buying the C# / .Net personal development system and a good tutorial on C#. C# is a very "protective" language that will catch a lot of errors at compile time. Also, the development system has a very good debugger and has a method completion feature that is very helpful. C# is part of the C family of languages, so learning it will ease the path to more manly languages such as C++ later. These features are useful for everybody, but especially useful for a beginner.
I know his isn't popular on
The following are my two favorite programming books:
The C Programming Language, by Kernighan and Ritche - a classic text for clarity, one one the best tutorials written on any subject.
Refactoring, by Martin Fowler. Best book I've read about how to write clear, elegant programs.
As probably one of the few (or the only) posters that has actually done what you want to do, I'll post my comments. I'm a little bit earlier in my path; I completed residency and a fellowship, but then was able to score a job doing computer stuff at the local academic medical center (which is a gross understatement, but I'm not going to be more specific). Now I'm going on two years of working in computers in medicine, and I don't think I'll ever go back. I do miss seeing patients, so I might work that back in a day a week or so, but just haven't had the time.
There was a lot of advice from IT people about their field, and I guess looking at those, you should figure out specifically what you want to do. If you want to go back to school to get your CS degree and do some Java programming (or whatever) for your local IT company, then I think you'd be starting at square one again, and (unless you've done this already) you'd really need to go through and take at least the last two years of undergrad again to get the CS background required to do that. You'd then run into the job market as it is right now (bad) and a serious cut in pay from where you are now. I wouldn't recommend that path, and that's not at all what I did.
What I would recommend is pursuing IT as an MD, and use your unique skills to do that. Medicine, in general, is very minimally computerized compared to other information-intensive industries (business, industry, even law). However, that's not to say it can't be or shouldn't be, it just traditionally hasn't been done for a lot of cultural reasons, as well as being more difficult. The other problem is that there simply aren't enough people doing IT in medicine that know both fields, so the IT solutions that we typically see are very poorly done, and the MD-derived solutions are IT disasters. Someone with faculties in both areas is a significant asset.
I also saw some comments about the shortage of MD's in a particular area and how they could use more MD's and not more IT people. That's a separate problem, best taken up with your local federal gov't, since the lack of MD's has more to do with the removal of incentives for people to become MD's, which is directly related to the HMO industry permeating and changing the entire structure to favor business and not the physician and patient, but that's a different topic.
You can certainly save more lives than you ever would as an MD if you do IT as an MD, since even very subtle effects, when encoded in something that hundreds or thousands of other MD's use to enhance their practice has remarkable effects over time. If I can make a product that decreases length-of-stay at my facility by only one-third of a day, I can save patients tens of thousands of days in the hospital a year, which you and I know is a good thing for everyone.
Lastly, the knowledge you need to do something like this. I started out as an engineering student, and was always something of a computer geek, but then switched to biology and then went into medicine. However, when I was in medicine I worked on web design and programming since 1995 (which was very early) and so had a good background. I have no specific CS training, but didn't really need it because I got my training "in the field." You may need to brush up on that stuff, and there are a lot of options for pursuing either a CS masters as an MD, or doing a Medical Informatics fellowship to get the same training (although those tend to be more research-oriented). The job market for this stuff is both tight and not tight. If you are willing to move and have the necessary skills, you could probably easily find a job. However, the jobs are sparsely located and tend to be found in metropolitan areas, so if you live in the middle of nowhere and don't want to move, you're probably going to be out of luck.
Hope this helps, feel free to message me for more info.
I've got bad news for you. By the time you get into IT in 5 or 10 years, you will have to work at a major company to have the privilege of using a general purpose computer. Patent lawyers will dictate to you how to write your programs.
We're all starving out here!!!!
Are you fucking nuts? Why would you want to start a career in a dying field. Unless you live in Russia or China, and are dirt poor, and are willing to work for 1/5 of what Westerners used to earn in the field, you are screwed.
The only part of CS/IT/Acronym-of-the-week that will recover is desktop support, because stupidity is the only constant, and if "regular" jobs are ever recovered, support techs will be needed on a proportional basis. And desktop support is not a career, its a job.
So, stay put. You actually have a secure future.
BTW, this would have been a good idea about 10 years ago.
move to India
ENGINEERING & CS != IT!!!!
Stop giving info about IT, he's not asking for IT! Serious design and high level architecting, what CS and Software Engineering people do nowadays in the US, is actually a nice job. Installing XP and patching for virsuses is not. IT is the latter. I'd say go for it (NOT IT). Do something health related, as all the smart posters are saying, and you'll do fine.
The next remark is false. The previous remark is true.
Many universities offer graduate programs in medical informatics for people who already have MDs. For example, Harvard and MIT have a joint masters program in medical informatics offered through the health sciences technologies division. The URL is: hst.mit.edu. You might consider this as a way to break into the field.
You'd better be very interested in math. Here at UCF (Orlando, FL) the engineering program requires you to take math courses all the way through Differential Equations (Calc I, II, and III req'd), IIRC. FYI, that's one math course short of a full math major. However, a lot of the earlier courses they require for us to help us decide what field of engineering we'd like to enter are pretty fun. My freshman year we had a few astronauts come and talk to us in the lectures, we learned about a neat little program called Matlab, and later MathCAD. I must advise, though. It's a tough course to follow. There are a lot of people who drop out of the major because it's a hard pill to swallow. But then again, that's why our engineering college is among the top 5 in the nation, if not the top 3.
Now watch this drive.
I think your goal should be combining your interests. You don't want to be VB code monkey making $20,000/year at this stage in your life. You might be happy desigining software that interfaces with hardware for the medical industry. That is a killer combination that very few people have. Basically, don't "throw away" what you've done so far.
Consider jumping into a master's program in CS at a quality night school. You have a good secure job with respect, one that most people here would envy. You can keep your job while getting your degree. You might need to catch up on few undergrad-level CS or math courses first. Some bad news: since the courses are in a different field, it won't be tax-deductible except for some very small exceptions.
Once you feel you have acquired enough knowledge about computers -- which is not necessarily the degree -- go out and scout places you want to work. Only take the job when you know you would love it, and keep your old one until then. I would bet medical software or hardware companies would be very interested.
I can explanate how to administrate your network. You must configurate and segmentate it, so it can computate.
I would ignore moving from medicine to computers right now, for reasons I'm sure other posters will mention in detail.
The next big technological revolution will be synthetic biology, harnessing the power of organic processes in the same fashion that computers harnessed the power of inorganic logic circuits.
Especially if you already have done classes in organic chemistry, human enzyme pathways, and genetics, you have the base to begin to move into this evolving industry. The first large international conference on synthetic biology will occur in June at MIT.
Start in the historic software and os versions and work forward in time everything is based on some older product.
Seriously.
Programmers who just happen to be medical doctors are aggressively sought out by the Pharmaceutical industry. You can get experience in programming by doing it as a volunteer for any number of non-profit organizations.
I know India is taking jobs from the US. I know this seems pretty bad, althought its just the game of free economics and globalization that the US has always said that its the best way to go. Ok.
So why not is you guys are so GOOD programming and better than the Indians start up your own enterprise hiring people in other country and you get to be the Boss and the one that has presence in the US looking and talking to the clients.
I mean, I dont see whats the real problem with the people who claim to be REALLY good with their job, if they know the bussiness, just play by the rules! The world is changing and you have to adapt to be replaced, because its like natural selection, if your brain stays put then you are supossed to die.
I live in Venezuela, and we always had the problem of outsourcing cause the companies here usually find better solutions in other countries, dont trust the services here or dont even find someone to do the job. And I know a LOT OF PEOPLE that will be extremely happy to work for 1000 bucks a month. There is a lot of unemployment here, still be get to live because of our natural resources...
So my point is, we are from a 4 hour flight from Miami, we dont live into that extremes conditions like Indians, and there is a lot of potential here... So, if they replaced you, all youve got its to start up your own outsourcing company...
felipe at cantv dot net
A lot of people are saying don't do it cause IT is a dead end, but bioinformatics is a very hot field right now. If you have an MD, I suggest looking into a graduate Bioinformatics program. Here is one link: http://www.cbse.ucsc.edu
I have a few simple reasons to go into IT
In most IT positions, your decision will not result in the injury or death of another individual. If you crater your disk subsystem, you have backups (at least I do... with eight years in backup and storage technology, I hope I got it right!) Unless electrocuted (thus earning a nomination for the Darwin award), nobody is dead after a botched upgrade. That's my unique take on the IT world after eight years of nursing.
Another reason: You will not be directly exposed to the myriad of infectious deseases that have grown resistant to medications. They are real and growing in number every day. Gotta remember, if you are exposed, your family is exposed with you.
Finally, in IT we never have to assume the burden of second-guessing every decision we make to minimize our exposure to malpractice lawsuits. Doctors, and now more frequently nurses, swim in shark-infested waters every day.
Good luck to you, Doc. Look in to biometrics, prostethics, or anything with HIPAA attached to it. HIPAA has been good for medical storage business.
I know many people in the field who started off in other fields and trained themselves to write software. These people tend to be amongst the best and most successful in the software field, frequently leveraging the skills of their original field to create unique value.
IMO, the technical aspect of how to create software is something that isn't complex enough to warrant a degree. Rather, it should be a required part of every other type of degree just like English composition.
My degree, Computer Engineering, was somewhat like this because I took every one of the normal computer science courses and almost every electronics course that an Electrical Engineer would take (2 short) and I did that in a standard 4 year program. In general, the electronics courses were vastly more difficult than the software courses. So, I see my education as being an electronics education that I improved by taking a lot of software composition courses. Its actually disturbing that the more simplistic field is where I make my money.
Your true success in the field won't depend very much on the education you receive in those technical aspects. The talent of creating good software architectures is one that really can't be taught. You either have the mental ability to refactor abstract processes and resist paradigm traps at will until you've reached a near optimum solution or you don't.
The chances that you have those talents aren't necessarily higher because you've succeeded in the medical field. In fact, success in medicine may indicate a lower level of creativity. Due to lawsuits and insurance issues, medical practitioners aren't allowed to be very creative in either of their primary jobs of diagnosing or treating. Medical education has adjusted to that reality over the last century and selects more for ability to memorize than good instincts or creativity.
If I were you, I'd examine myself and the way I think before taking this path. Some good indicators might be in your hobby areas. Do you or could you see yourself working with creative hobbies such as furniture making, painting, hotrods, playing an instrument, etc? If so, do you see yourself as someone who would just follow existing plans or someone who does it their own way? When you do things your way, do they usually work out better or worse than if you had followed the plans?
Corporate government, corporate practices. The feds are looking at outsourcing lots of services. So tax money drops and unemployment rises, you can't expect politicians (or businessmen) to look more than one quarter ahead.
You got me into this! You were the ideologue! I'm only a poor assassin! - Twenty evocations, Bruce Sterling
I think Ash said it best: "I could lie to you about you chances, but... you have my sympathies"
"Not the Earth!!! That's where I keep all my stuff!!!" - The Tick
With your back ground in medicine and a degree in computer science, you'd be perfectly aligned to join a burgeoning research field. One of the biggest areas that might be applicable is molecular medicine and bioinformatics. Here comes the troll part ... The problem with most whiny slashdotters is that they think CS knowledge is both necessary and sufficient for a technology job. The industry is moved on, and knowledge of business process, ability to interface with customers or niche specialties are going to compose the jobs the survive. Bad news = lots of out of work programmers. Good news = remaining jobs will be high paying and more interesting.
...it's our only growth industry. (Canada)
My advice is to not study programming. By all means learn it, and as the best way of learning it I suggest using a unix and messing around with open source as much as possible.
If you really want to get into CS and software engineering, you want to study the engineering the most. There's no shortage of people that can spit out a few thousand lines of code. There is a severe lack of people that can do it right. Learning how to do the code right the first time, minimizing the number of bugs in it, minimizing the revisions required, and minimizing the time needed to test, will make you stand out from the numerous people with the same basic skills as you.
The other alternative is to study theory, but I've never heard of somebody making a business career out of theory.
I have a friend who is an MD and went back to school to get his BS in Computer Science. He completed the degree but said that in comparison, the CS degree was far more difficult than the MD. Just a heads-up to think about. Not saying that you can't pull it off, just that a BS in CS may take more work than you expect.
There are 10 types of people in the world:
Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
As a 42-year old practicing physician (transplant surgeon, to be specific - http://www.lifelinkfound.org/bruce.asp), I feel I can comment on the above with some authority.
The AMA is *not* an accreditation organization, it is a lobbying group. The AMA has no control over medical eduation, residency training, licensure, or much of anything else related to the practice of medicine. About the closest thing the AMA does to this is to maintain a database regarding physicians who have been named in malpractice suits.
Second, there is certainly no artificial restriction on medical education today. It is difficult to get high quality students to even consider medicine. The practice of medicine years ago may have been more "god-like", but for my generation it is more like taking a red-hot poker in the rear at every turn. We have declining payments, increasing bureaucratic red tape, and the threat of lawsuits as part of our daily existance. It is still a emotionally and intellectually satisfying profession like none other, and I do make a comfortable income, but I have to wonder whether it is really worth it. My post-HS training consisted of:
4 year undergraduate degree
4 year medical degree
5 year surgical residency
3 year immunology research fellowship
2 year clinical transplant surgery fellowship
After that, I got my first "real" job at the assistant professor level. If I had gotten a business degree, I could have been a bank VP or something similar years before I finished my transplant training.
David Bruce, M.D.
Do all that studying just to be out of work?
Oh well, what the hell...
Slightly off topic story: I was in the doctor's office a few months ago, suffering from some kind of nasty combo of cough and sore throat. (The symptoms had lasted long enough to make me think it wasn't just a run of the mill cold). So the doctor does the open-wide-and-say-ahhh routine, and I do, and then, just as she's peering into my mouth, I go into an involuntary coughing fit. I sprayed the doctor pretty good. I apologized profusely after it happened, but the thing is, the doctor never flinched once. It was as though it was all par for the course. I could not imagine myself in that position, having a patient cough all over me and not giving it a second thought. What's more, I realized, having someone cough all over me probably is one of the more pleasant experiences I would have to endure as a doctor.
For a perspective on how stressful a life in medicine is, check out the book The Intern Blues. I read this a while back when I was trying to figure out what else I might want to do with my life besides IT. (Definitely not medicine.)
As others have mentioned, medical informatics is perfect for your interests. The American Medical Informatics Association (www.amia.org) is a good place to check.
Personally, I have worked in medical software development both on the clinical/hospital side and now in the pharma./medical device industry. There are many opportunities for physicians with CS degrees in industry.
There are also some great degree-granting (M.S. and Ph.D.) medical informatics programs, including:
- Columbia Univ.
- Stanford
- Harvard
- etc.
You should look into PhD programs in Medical Informatics at Columbia or Stanford. Combines medicine and computer science. Good prospects.
Don't let some of the people pring you down about "offshoring".
.. people pay for knowledge, you're job would be to convince them you have it.
You would actualy be at an advantage since, not only could you build the solution - you could also understand the problems faster.
An example , alot of the IT people here could build a patient management system - blah balh apachee blah blah mysql blah blah wireless... etc. Many would miss their mark in usability, effectiveness, security, privacy etc.
That's where your value would be - having domain experience
First please recognize the distinction between computer science and 99% of the jobs in the tech industry. Unless you are working in a scientific field, you will not be involved in any kind of science. Most programmers are working in 'IT' for business, this is about the least scientific and certainly the least interesting field related to computers.
So please, unless you enjoy complete dissatisfaction, avoid anything related to 'IT'. I find myself in an 'IT' position after being hired to do R&D to develop an interesting application. The R&D is over, now I am stuck working dead end projects for paying clients, who have no idea what they really want. I recently came across a problem where multiplication was required. I realized that I had not written any code dealing with anything remotely mathematical in almost a year. I was saddened by this.
Science involves computers these days, but the actual practice of 'computer science' is rare in my opinion. Science happens at universities and some R&D labs at large corporations like Intel, IBM, etc. If you are not in one of these places, you will probably end up writing code to transform one purchase order or another, some silly web application, or something similarly disinteresting. There are Billions of young, ambitious people willing to do these unsatisfying jobs, let them get stuck working for Company A, whose sole purpose is to profit in any way possible, even if it means treating employees like human assets (slaves?) instead of human resources.
TallGreen CMS hosting
Here's some advice applicable to your question unlike the other 98% of unrelated opinions already posted:
OCW will get you started on the right foot, but I would recommend finding a suitable research field to apply those skills to.
Some of the best programmers I've worked with have been in a research lab at my alma mater's comp sci dept. And several of these grad students came from a non-computer science background such as physics, chemistry, genetics, etc. Once they found an immediate application for their programming skills, their skills progressed at an amazing rate. This does not mean that all science-based individuals are good programmers, but the purpose and foundation for learning (and learning properly) is already there.
So my advice? Use the internet to start researching some of the better computer science schools research groups and see if there is anything out there you like. Conjoining your medical background with a CS focus might lead to neuro/bio/medical -informatics, or maybe computational biology. You can also go into simulation, such as scientific visualization of specific area of medical research or even go into computer graphics. There are literally thousands of specific areas to look into.
Here's on example: Sticking with the foundation learned in OCW and applying proper programming techniques (such as learned in "Effective C++" by Scott Meyers) to fields such as computer graphics can be a great way to get immersed in the field - as long as you have an end application to apply your skills. So picking up a project like applying computer graphic visualization and simulation to a medical process or generating physical-based character animation can be extremely beneficial. You'll obviously have to learn computer graphics programming somewhere along the way, but that that'll just sharpen both your math skills and visual sense, along with having another great tool under your belt.
Go research some of the current projects going on at research labs at the top computer science schools. Here are some suggestions for you to check out:
browncarnegie mellon
berkeley
wisconsin
north carolina
stanford
And of course not all computer science research falls under the header of the computer science department. Research medical departments doing interdisciplinary research with both engineering and computer science.
Almost all research labs have papers of their work (even their most recent) avaialble in PDF format. Download some of the earlier papers to get a feel for the research focus and try to find something that interests you. Try to implement the same techniques and algorithms using your skills. This will bea great way for you to realize what you still need to learn and get a great foundation in a new area of research.
But always keep in mind that proper programming is of utmost importance. So while your trying to leanr a new area of research by applying your skills, also focus on the studying from the better programming books out there that teach you how to become a better programmer. Go on amazon for suggestions. Start with looking up my previous suggestion and go from there.
Good luck, and sorry about all of the hundreds of wasted postings coming from IT people bitching about their lack of applicable skills.
Martin
Give me a break!!!!! This CAN'T be a serious post! Most physicians I know are very sharp individuals and would certainly be aware of the precarious condition most IT/programmer types are in. Although physicians have there own issues, they have managed to keep out most of the poorly-paid foreign physicians and keep a decent salary.
I think someone is yanking our chain!
"Meaningless!, Meaningless!" says the Teacher. "Utterly meaningless!"
Because of the educational requirements, there's no oversupply of biomeds, either.
I'd recommend Marquette , as it's a great program with good people, but there are always other options.
...-.-
- Examining whether you're unhappy with your industry, or your employer
- How you're having the same problem many others have, and what they did to deal with it
- How to recognize how to use your current skills as great leverage in a new industry
No matter what your thought pattern now, this book will help you scritinize it in greater detail! I'm reading it now and it's helping tremendously.Cheers,
Aaron.
You can have my one-button mouse when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers.
I was just in the San Jose Mayors office yesterday. (I'm revamping one of the councilmembers websites) Even in the capitol of silicon valley, the IT is sooo outdated you would not want to be there.
.gov I really recomend coming in as a contractor unless you like working with outdated technology.
The councilmembers assistant I was working with had a very old dell. I think it was a PII 400mhz. It was definetly running NT4.0 and the video driver was borked (16 color display yay!) I took a few minutes to fix it because I was there.
Thing is, EVERYONE there was running NT4.0. I think even the IIS servers hosting the cities web sites runs on NT4.0.
Maybe that's why our mayor had a stroke the other day. He was thinking about how M$ was going to EOL NT4 and the costs of licensing win2k. Maybe someone should tell him about these newfangled free operating systems.
But all jokes aside, if you do want to work for the
To be a little more serious, you need to carefully consider what you want to do. The dot-com tech boom is dead and gone (and most likely won't be back during our lifetime), so if you're just itching to become a programmer then you'll be disappointed to hear that you have two factors working against you:
- Graduates in their 20s will work for a much lower salary and probably grew up with computers and have been writing their own programs for some time (translation, more programming experience).
- A lot of the programming work is being outsourced overseas (not just India).
If you have an idea that you want to build a business around, then you should look at a business degree and go the venture capital route and hire out the technical work to people who are already in the business.I don't want to be overly negative, but having worked in a number of industries that use computer technology I can tell you that anything that can be scripted or reduced to a manufacturing process will be constructed where labor is cheapest.
In any case, I wish you the best of luck!
However as to the mechanics, in most major metropolitan areas there are at least 3 universities offering MS in Computer Science as an evening course set, and possibly MS in Electrical Engineering. I'd recommend an MS/CS and a few random EE courses (esp. digital logic design, maybe something on robotics/control theory), so you've got some familiarity with the physical hardware aspects of Computers.
Having survived medical school, keeping up with the average MS/CS crowd shouldn't be too bad, especially if you learn a little programming on your own first, and brush up on set theory/discrete math a bit first.
- "History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of men" -- Blue Oyster Cult, 'Godzilla'
What do you mean by independent path? Are you trying to avoid a degree, or just looking for a non traditional path to a degree? Go for the degree unless you just want to be another IT cubicle drone. With a background in medicine and a CS/EE degree you'd probably be a perfect fit for the technical side of the healthcare industry. Perhaps a program/project manager, or in technical marketing or sales. For a few friends of mine, the hot ticket was an undergraduate engineering degree (plus a few years experience) and an MBA. I could see a bright future for an MD with an MSEE/MSCS.
I develop software for medical instruments but I really don't see that a medical degree is really much help there. If anything, having been a lab technician would be more useful. Perhaps in a different area of the field, say medical imaging, your skills might be more applicable to software/hardware development.
But why the change? Do you expect to be bored with medicine in 5-10 years? I have seen the reverse scenario: an ex-classmate of mine (we both graduated as EEs) got tired of being an engineer after a few years and is now a pediatrician. Being an engineer simply wasn't challenging enough for her.
I definitely recommend pursuing education, whether pursuing a degree or picking up a book or hacking out a minor software project. (Learning 'by rote' is definitely different then learning 'by do'. Probably the best people that I was exposed to concerning programming or Software Development had both been educated but had a natural affinity for picking things up on their own by doing it themselves.) I recently graduated school (BS in math and CS at a liberal arts college 2 years ago) and I would consider myself passionate about continuing to educate myself, whether its computer science or history or whatever(I read a lot of books and I also study Russian in my free time).
Educate yourself if you are interested, have goals in mind, but be realistic. The points that commenters have made are rooted with the sourest of personal circumstances. But I am guessing you didn't recieve your MD by listening to people tell you that you were not going to succeed, so if you have the ability and the skills, there is no reason that you shouldn't educate yourself and possibly pursue a 2nd career in computer/engineering technology.
Some of the previous commenters have mentioned some books that you might want to read before making a decision. I would suggest that you try to expose yourself to different concepts and ideas in CS/engineering to get a grasp of what you would like to do before making a large commitment(taking classes or getting a degree.)
I myself would like to continue to educate myself by getting a degree in the "hard" sciences(ok I am not sure if I will ever get the chance, but if I have a little more time or money, I am there.)
Above all I believe that you need to have a more specific idea about what you want to do before pursuing any major steps.
Good luck!
In the meantime I believe there's some envelopes that need licking over there.
What you want is bio-infomatics go google it.
I don't want to sound rude but all the doctors I know don't have what it takes to succeed in engineering. Becoming a Dr. is about memory. Becoming an engineer is about thought process. You will be competing against people who have a massively overpowering head start on you and you will be unlikely to be more than mediocre at it. You are too far behind and engineering is a harder field than medicine. Unless you do some kind of bio engineering project management job where they call you an engineer but you really a MBA type.
Bio-infomatics however will allow you to leverage you biology knowledge and medical knowledge and you could easily make a contribution. Because the engineer type have no bio background they are often barred from this field (because its run by the Dr. and Phd. types who favor degrees)
If you do choose engineering understand that the degree is just a piece of paper in engineering. There are lots of peope in engineering that have no college degree at all. Its all about being able to do it. Medicine is the opposite where degree>ability or you would see Dr.s working for nurses. My boss has no degree and neither did senior EE before me.
Here's some real advice for the original poster: Some of the hottest IT jobs right now are probably...tada, health-related industries. Look around what you do RIGHT NOW and look at what things could be done better and more efficiently using computers. Develop some software to do so and you can make a mint.
Yes, you can make money by prescribing Viagra via email! Or, how about processing medical billing information at home! Your earning potential is endless!
1) Ignore those who say there are no jobs in the market. This is simply not true.
2) Provide a unique service/slant towards what you do. The problem with many IT types is they lack of a systematic way of dealing with their network/PC gear. You would be amazed at the folks I have seen who run a few hundred machines literly by the seat of their pants. Nothing is written down, nothing is documented, the guy calls it 'job security' but it results in a real LOSS to his company at the bottom line, measured in downtime for the people who actually do work for the company.
Your age and experience in a 'real' field of profesional service will provide a great basis for a carreer in IT managment/Consulting.
3) Network! You know a lot of doctors. Docs are the BEST customers, because they are professionals. They will respect your ability, pay you, and stand back. You could concievably hit the ground running with your current circle of professional contacts, and never look back.
4) Laugh all the way to the bank and wonder how anyone could outsource a job that requires physical presence...
What worries me is that I think the doctor next door has a better looking husband than my wife has.
Learn Frontpage and become a web designer - there really cannot be to many of those.
SIG: TAKE OFF EVERY 'CAPTAIN'!!
what is not being outsourced is business process experts who know software... for purposes of managing, setting up the controls and QC, and acceptance procedures of outsourced bitslingers. for that, rough guess is an MBA strong in business process and project managment, with appropriate MIS minor/major and some experience and certificates in languages and tools currently in vogue.
in your case, with a practical physician background, you could backdoor a bit of the MBA type stuff through CLEP credits if you are, say, one of the managing partners of your clinic or specialty group, etc. it would certainly get you a first interview, and quite likely the second one, if you are targeting medical software firms.
but one strong possibility would be if you have good math skills and take to computers.... in the research department at one of the large drug outfits. as I understand it, much of the "drug research" underway nowadays is to identify the contraindications and side effects with layout of parts of a drug molecule.
there are "right hand" and "left hand" compounds created approximately in equal quantities in synthesis, of which on BlunderMax (tm), the left-handed stuff could cause toenail cancer that runs wild and kills in days, and the right-handed stuff cures the common cold and grows hair and costs ten cents a ton to produce. if CornerPharm Corp. can develop a wimpy-left-hand version of the basic molecule that has 90% bias in manufacturing, has the same benefits, and the black-sheep contaminant only causes bleeding stringwarts in certain rare types of genetic error, you have a hit.
spend a little time in your medical library and check these options out. you now have something to ask those drug salesmen pests about on their next visit, how MegaMergerCo. develops product lines and recruits researchers.
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
He may have millions, but I am yet another swing voter who voted for him last time. That mistake will not happen again. In addition, we don't have any pain in the ass third party candidates (yet) swiping a percentage point or two.
The money is to be made from being a physiscian and applying CS to medicine. That's where the gaps are and thats where an additional CS degree would be best spent IMHO. Think: MRI, Neuro scanners, DNA sequencers, drug synthesis, patient management, ...
Go learn the stuff from books sites and self study. Take a couple of tests and get some meaningless certs that managers like and you're set. Talk about your love of computers and how you gave up a career in medicine to come to IT. Oh and be prepared to make 1/2 to 1/8 as much as you do now.
I love a good number of NPR shows (e.g., Fresh Air), but I can't stand Prarie Home Companion or whatever it's called. There's just something about that whining, nasal, condescending voice that both turns me off and puts me to sleep. Does anyone actually like it?? It must have it's following, but I really don't get its appeal.
In medicine, the outsourcing game is just beginning. Medical transcription and standard back-office tasks have been moved off-shore for years. Now the high paid labor, namely doctors, are on the chopping block. Many radiologic studies are generated as digital images, such as CT, MR, and digital angiography. Standard film techniques are increasingly being done in digital imaging suites. "Teleradiology," the transmission of these images to a distant viewer, was an inescapable development. It was promoted as a way for smaller outlying hospitals without radiologists on staff to have more rapid interpretations or to allow university radiologists to give a second opinion on difficult cases. While it is occasionally used for these purposes, the technology mostly enables local radiologists the stay home and avoid coming to the hospital.
However, the birds are coming home to roost as hospitals, including major medical centers like the Massachusetts General Hospital, are now outsourcing the radiology jobs.
Currently, radiologists are among the best compensated physicians with salaries in the $350,000 to $750,000 range, not counting profits from their ownership of imaging centers. In our town, they usually are found in their waterfront homes, continuing to read X-rays and bill their fees from the comfort of the den. Indeed, there is a radiology imaging center near my office owned by a radiologist in Miami who has, to my knowledge, not been in the building for weeks. Expect a major change in this state of affairs, and rapidly.
Already, newly-minted radiology graduates have found salaries offered in practice have dropped about 50%. Further, partnership (an ownership position in the practice, imaging center, or an enforceable portion of the hospital contract) is as far-fetched as a balanced Bush budget. Junior radiologists will never make enough money to afford the millions in equity the senior partners have in the imaging center, yet their work and billings increase the value of the business. As salaried physicians, they are hired and fired at will by the senior partners, who were lucky to have entered the field only 5-6 years earlier. In our hospital, the turnover at the junior level (and these are the newest trained physicians, the most up to date on the technology) has been dizzying - 8 fired and replaced in the last 5 years - while the older partners, often without any special fellowship training in CT, MR, or interventional techniques, continue to rake it in. As offering salaries have dropped, well ... let's just say that several of the replacement rdiologists could be 'outsourced' with a definite improvement in quality.
[Actually, this trend to shuttiing out newer hires from any hope of partnership has been apparent for about 10 years, before outsourcing became a issue. The "RAP" (radiology, anesthesia, and pathology) services were bundled in with the hospital compensation in DRG-based reimbursement systems. These specialists hold contracts with the hospital which is the value of their practice. The older partners, signatories to these contracts, have been loathe to share the spoils, preferring instead to hire newer trainees for 3-5 years, promising partnership at that time, only to offer it under onerous terms or not at all.]
The next jobs on the plane will be the pathologists. In the last 10 years, hospital pathology groups have banded together to form large regional or national practices, such as Ameripath or Quest. But slides which are sent to Utah can just as easily be digitized or FedEx-ed to India, Russia, or Europe where there is an abundance of low-paid medical talent. Other hospital based interpretive contracts, which are extremely lucrative for the contract-holders, should follow rapidly. I see echocardiograms and ECGs going next. As a matter on fact, I think I am going to speak to the hospital administrator about this tomorrow.
If you want to stay in the medical/bio-sci field, there is no shortage of CS positions in there.
However, if you want to move out from that field and not worry about dealing with the whole outsourcing pressure on the job market, I'd seriously consider DoD or intelligence systems for the U.S. government.
If you have ethical issues with those fields, law enforcement systems are also pretty much shielded from the outsourcing threat. You get to track down bad guys and get paid.
I'd also like to echo the sentiment of more than a few CS guys/gals in that I've been playing with getting out of IT for a while. The tech changes every few months and it gets a bit tiring after a while. Then you have the whole outsourcing threat to deal with.
I have a friend that made alot of money on an IPO a few years back (I, unfortunately, missed the IPO gravy train) and bought a medical supplies business. At one of the meetings with a few doctors, they thought he was crazy for leaving IT and moving in the medical field. He just sighed and said IT wasn't as sexy as some people might think. Something to keep in mind.
I still enjoy CS and as long as you keep on eye on your IT career path and position yourself to work on the systems you want to work on, it's pretty entertaining.
Good luck whichever direction you go.
Medicine + IT + Government = Veterans Affairs The VA needs Doctors with IT degrees to ensure FDA compliance of new IT systems and to support HIS/RIS ops. Also, their systems are old and will need expertise in the future to migrate to newer platforms. And the pay isn't to shabby.
I worked with a fella who switched careers from construction to software development. He was able to make the career move by taking and passing a few Microsoft certification tests.
I don't think just anyone should be able to get into the industry. It's not an arrogance type thing, but if you're looking at development, you should really do a lot of studying.
If you are going to look into support based jobs, which doesn't make sense considering your profession, you'll just need certifications for the different OS's that you will support. The same goes for being the "fixit" hardware guy.
If you want to go into development or engineering, however, I strongly urge you to go back to college for a CS type degree. Take those math courses, take the algorithms courses, and take the advanced development and "teamwork" classes.
There is a lot of programming sludge in the industry at the moment, with people that have started caring less about elegance and efficiency. They take the attitude of "Well, as long as it works." As a doctor, you probably understand my point of view. You wouldn't use duct tape to bind wounds unless you had no choice, but it will work. I'm confronted with this on a daily basis with people that haven't been beaten over the head with good programming techniques, strong logic and mathematics, language usage, and a deeper understanding of how the machines work.
So, study your math. Study your computers. Study your languages, and why they are the way they are. Write lots of code while studying, so that you can hone your skill. Lastly, make choices in the following debates, because IT geeks' worlds revolve around them:
That just about takes care of it. It's the competition that keeps us thriving, even though some of us take it way too far.
You need to restart your computer. Hold down the Power button for several seconds or press the Restart button.
Drug design via supercomputers (Linux clusters) is so cool. It is fun, you get to use all your medical knowledge and explore the world of high end computing. Since you work for the drug companies it pays pretty well too. Now I'm not a doctor (BS Biochemistry, years as a computer nerd doing C and PERL) but I think it would be a place you would fit in well. I know it has been good to me....
Just a thought
This is an interesting article that address a whole lot of issues, but does in part talk about the changing world and why "outsourcing to India" isn't necessarily a bad thing: Creative Class War by Richard Florida.
Actually, the federal govt. is more and more outsourcing its IT needs to contractors who tend to hire H1-b or L-1.
A CS degree is quickly becoming a supporting degree that you use to augment a primary skill in the US. (In other countries, it is quickly becoming the degree to have, but they too will eventually hit the same problem we have as other non-English speaking countries learn the dollar value of speaking English).
BioInformatics is a great career at the moment, but I already know India is starting to pick at that market, and several US companies are not just looking, but planning to move R&D to India and other countries. They have to many incentives, lack of environmental restrictions, dirt cheap brain power and labor, dirt cheap land and building... The list goes on. I would not want to specialize in anything that can be done almost as well 1000 miles away as it can be done where I am.
I am still making more per hour than most that I know in the field, but I am making 1/3rd of what I was in 2000, and I know the dollar amount is going down. I won't say no to a CS degree, but I will say think very carefully about your other options before trying to get into this field. I expect that there will be less than 1 in 20 programming jobs in the US in the next 5 to 6 years. The issues that companies run into with outsourcing to India and others will largely go away, as they are as interested in profit as we are.
Freud might say that Intelligent Design is religion's ID.
One of the best students in my Biology class was a former CSer who was doing either an MS or a PhD in Biology.
If you're really interested, with a doctor's salary you can probably afford it. You could probably find some half-time medical work in Boston (perhaps even at MIT Medical!) if you wanted to keep your doctor skills up.
Also look into the professors who advise for the Harvard/MIT MD/PhD program.
Too bad I'm an AC and you'll never see this.
I didn't know whether to laugh or cry when I read your opinion about what most drug research is nowadays.
While it is true that there are a few small companies working on rehabilitating compounds dropped due to side effects.... this is NOT where most of the research dollars get spent. And even if it was, there are so many more ways to get nasty side effects than the problem you describe (enantiomers, if I understand your post correctly) that there are entire textbooks written on the subject.
And most people working on computer-assisted drug design have PhDs in an appropriate field (such as computational chemistry).
This isn't to say that there aren't good niche options out there for an MD with computer knowledge, but most of the posts in this thread are pointing this doctor at fields that generally require a PhD. Even bioinformatics jobs, which once were accessible with a bachelor's in bio or chem and some IT geek leanings, now usually want a PhD or years and years of experience.
Also, bioinformatics is NOT a hot field. There have been massive layoffs in the field recently. I should know, its my field. And yes, I was laid off last year. I have a new job now, but I know many talented bioinformatics folks (with the requisite PhDs and years of experience) that have yet to find a new job. This "bioinformatics is hot" nonsense is several years out of date now. There are still jobs combining computers and biology, but they are not as easy to get as they once were. The bioinformatics "boom", during which anyone who knew what a gene was and had heard of Perl could get a job in the field, roughly coincided with the dot-com boom. It is most decidedly over now.
I do know one or two MDs in the field. They work in academic positions (less money than industry, but more freedom to do what you want). I think they switched in during the boom years, though.
Outsourcing is purely a currency play. $1 USD equals about 45 Rupees, so your $10,000 translates to 450,000 rupees or "4.5 lakhs" as they call it out there. That's a big deal to an Indian where 25% of the population ie. 250,000,000 people, live on less than a $1 a day.
... you get the idea -
So you're gaming the system - the currency markets- by taking American cash & buying Indian laborers at these "cheap" rates. This isn't free trade at all.
What would free trade look like? Say the American could go live in India. Say he could have a nice 2-bdrm house, subsidized education in a socialist economy where a PhD level education costs you less than $100 ( I'm not kidding - am an Indian myself and have benefitted from this ). Books that cost $20 here are less than a dollar out there. Notion of copyright is just on paper - everything gets pirated, duplicated, with no real legal hassle. Say the American could have cheap health care. No notion of monthly health insurance - just walk into any hospital when you're ill, & one of the numerous MDs - not nurses, but an MD would personally look at you. Say the American
ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL == Free Trade.
Otherwise, you are simply gaming the system.
My recommendation would be to get a job with a medical equipment manufacturer. Modern hospital equipment (x-ray, ct-scan, ultrasound, etc) depends on fairly complex (embedded) software and you need people with a medical background on your staff to program these things, e.g. post-processing of medical images, feature recognition, etc
I think you put a little too much faith in the University system. A university is a place where you can be exposed to information that would be difficult at best to acquire on your own. But it does not make one a programmer.
I've seen these kids that get degrees and there are many that do not deserve to work in technology related fields. They usually end up in deadbeat tech jobs a monkey could do but wouldn't because of some "tech-phobia". Or they start all over again at the expense of their employer.
Careful what you're implying there, bub. There are many great minds that did not even have a high school degree. The greatest were self taught in fact.
You are obviously unable to grasp this and probably think people are hardworking, honest, and brilliant just by seeing a degree, certification, or standardized test score.
Medical Informatics -- my younger sister has a PhD. Pretty much a total integration of medicine and computer science.
...in several areas. There are many applications that would do well to have a dually trained individual, for instance Georgia Tech would probably finance a masters in CS/BioInformatics.
Want to see every step I took to start my company? http://www.rowdylabs.com/blogs/pitchtothegods
I am a physician, but contemplating a career change (...) towards a career in a Computer Science field?
You have a career in a field wich pays extremely well and in which your job cannot be exported;
You are seriously considering changing to a field which never really paid as well as medicine, and which has a high percentage of unemployed because jobs can be, have been, and will continue to be, exported to third-world countries;
There's just no way to be truthful and tactful at the same time. You are incredibly stupid.
socialist as i can be sometimes, i see absolutely no problem with you drawing that reference. it makes sense to do so,(system is broken, therefor don't use the system).
but it has not always been this way. i couldn't tell you why exactly things aren't working right now(multibillion dollar studies are being done to determine the cause and i think even they are confused)
however, i feel privatization is not a cure for this ailment. sure, some people end up getting mediical coverage, but i'll never be included in that set of people(i'll be poor until i die). perhaps in the united states what you have is better than what we have right now, but 10 or so years ago this was not the case. even in saskatoon(which has a university+hospital link which for some reason makes the hospital more efficient) it's not that bad(thus 250km bus ride...that's how far away saskatoon is).
on the other hand, i feel that canada is going to become a true communistic state before the end of this century. or fall apart, one of the two. why do i say this? the majority of the population are boomers correct? well, if all the boomers are stuck in care homes, and they are also the majority of the population, and the care homes are funded by the government, well then guess what? you have a WHOLE MASSIVE BUNCH (because it would take that many) of young people employed to control and help out a whole massive bunch of old people by the government, and what you then have is everyone either working for the government(read: hospitals/care homes) or everyone being taken care of by government programs(hospital/care homes). obviously privatization would cure this(it would become a really nasty corporate state, then, although it needn't be that bad. but knowing the boomers i wouldn't discount it)... but in this case i forsee economic disaster, and adding of canada into the united states.
(/ranting)
in the meanwhile i just had the weirdest dream including a reference to this thread but yes, until we socialist states can get our shit together this view is acceptable.
i think part of the problem is that our liberal government starved healthcare(and it's not like you can just starve healthcare for 5 years then give it a bunch of money to make up for things and expect things to work out, healthcare is not a bank), and part of the reason it did that was trying to balance the budget due to deficits from the tories earlier, and that they were just plain crooked to begin with. while this may not be the only reason, i can tell you now don't elect crooks into office.
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
Oh sure, when I try and be funny I get branded a troll but when I don't.......
"Thanks to the remote control I have the attention span of a gerbil."
His example is a great way to remain a doctor and become a major figure in another field at the same time.
You are not alone; I can give you some real life experience. I have been a practicing Dentist for 14 years and a closet geek since my first Mac. Four years ago I went back to school and got a BS in CS. That was just about when the bottom fell out of the market and I was happy to have my day job. I decided to do an MS and am almost done with that. The majority of people coming out of grad programs now ( your competition ) are very bright and speak English as a second language. How long ago did you take calculus? It is hard to catch up from a cold start. Unfortunately all the experience in the health field does not count for anything on a CS resume. What I found was as time went on and the difference between an entry level CS position and my earnings widened, I developed a better appreciation for my profession. Pursue it as a hobby but don't let it interfere with the cash cow. The salary lets you buy lots of tech toys to help you get over it.
Leverage your existing skillset. Perhaps pursue a job in bioinformatics, or some convergence field between medecine and technology. User interface designer for heart monitors/diagnostic equipment, or those new tablet PCs that everyone says will be deployed. How about an auditer for privacy compliance in protocols that are being rolled out. I think that is your strongest bet. -PHiZ
Pretend I said something meaningful or insightful here.
I think this is a great idea.
What I would do, is a program of self-study to prepare yourself for the GREs.
Working the MIT OpenCourseWare materials is a great place to get started. I would also recommend workuing you way through Bob Sedgewick's algorithms.
I would use that knowledge to apply to graduate programs. UCSF has a great one in bioinformatics. An MS in bioinformatics would be a great launching pad to working on systems to be applied in medicine and biological research...
It is interesting to note that this kind of shift isn't without precedenct: Bill Atkinson (the author of QuickDraw [the imagine under the original Mac OS] and Hypercard) was a Phd in Chemistry that moved into CS.
Yours,
Jordan
Practice your technique in affairs-using a variety of subjects will teach you techniques you wouldn't pick up with the same old person.
Sorry I must get in here and answer these.
Yes, it might be harder to communicate, but all ideas are commutable through e-mail
This is a utter crap. You can NOT run a busness this way. At times you must get everyone together and just hash it out. Do you know what it costs to fly to another country? The outsourced agencies will CHARGE you an arm and leg to do it. On the other hand you can go there and it costs YOU time and money. I have played the e-mail game with english speaking people and STILL I end up picking up the phone/walking over and saying "explain to me point by point what you are doing".
Now, looking past the accent
This has never bothered me. Anyone who says it does is being bigoted. Now I have met many people with 'accents' that are bigoted if not even more so than some of us 'Americans'. Being a dippo does not take an accent. I also work and have worked with many talented people that have 'accents'.
If it wasn't delivering acceptable results such that the final product were comparable to US products, would you really think that big corporations would be willing to send these important jobs overseas?
The answer is yes they would. COST above all drives many things. It is the "lowest bidder" mentality. There is always someone out there willing to take the money and run and not produce anything of substance. I have seen a few of these 'offshore' things go down. Products that could change whole industries and make tons of dosh are outsourced. Either because it is cheaper or is in the way of someone elses pet project. Now the quality of these products was not even worth the time. But boy could these guys crank out documentation. It seemed they could do that by the ton. Then when it came time to actually produce something crap was produced, then oportunities were missed. Then here is the kicker they would squeeze you to try to get more money to fix what THEY broke in the first place.
I do not worry about it much. This sort of thing has been going on for years. Once everyone realizes its a pain to run things through email/phone. Yes it IS on the other side of the globe with a different timezone. You are not getting what you paid for, due to accountablity. It will swing back the other way some. Some stuff will stick others will not. Also if there REALLY is that much demand going on over there the average pay will go up dramaticly there (good for them). People will start job hoping like they were doing here a few years ago. Then the 'new' market will be somewhere else.
At least two of the successful IT people I have previously been a practicing doctors, and I know one is happy in his role - I lost track of the other when the company crashed and burned. In my country there has been a social change over the last few years, with the long term unemployed being regulated to invalid pensioner status, and one side effect has been an attitude where you get a payout wherever you can. Doctors are now squarely in the sights of people who want a payout, and anything that is not perfect is seen as cause to run to the lawyers and win the legal lottery. An insurance industry collapse didn't help either. As a consequece a few doctors in my country are changing careers.
Medical software (and there is a lot of it) and medical equipment really needs someone that has medical knowledge to work on it. The algorithm is the important thing, getting the code right is something a lot of people can do, but someone with the knowlege has got to show them how first.
Medical engineering is another option - all the medical engineers I have met have been doing very interesting things, but they all have a Phd - and there isn't really a lot of funding. As an example, artificial joints haven't progressed beyond what was in the lab twenty years ago - no-one has spent the cash since then to find a decent cartlage replacement or develop a joint that can stand a few years of heavy use. Work is being done on eye lenses and metal implants that bone sticks to quite effectively within a couple of days. It appears the trick is to find out what is the flavour of the month.
I'd be interested in knowing what type of doctor you are. The possibilities for combining computers/IT and medicine are endless. I am currently a medical student and a techie looking to do the same thing. The challenge is finding where is your medical knowledge is advantageous in IT.
There are numerous opportunities in medical informatics. Hospitals spend millions of Dollars on PACS systems and Computerize Physician Order Entry, but in many cases the barrier to acceptance of these systems in hospitals is physician approval. Who better to know what a physician would need/value than a physician. I've you've ever worked in a VA hospital, you know about VISTA and how cool it would be if all hospitals had patient tracking systems like that. It's such a pain trying to dig up paper charts and meds at a nurses station. At the VA, you just sit down at a screen and all the information and studies are at your fingertips. Eventually all hospitals will have CPOE and Computerized medical records, and there is a lot of money to be made by providing them.
Numerous opportunities also exist in Radiology and Surgery. I read about a guy who just raised 15 million in venture capital for his company called Quick Study Radiology. He archives imaging data for rural hospitals, saving them a lot of money and improving quality of care. I also know Neurosurgeons who have systems for image guided surgery and remote surgery over a network connection using a robotic arm. But then again...neurosurgeons are one step down from God on the ladder.
I suggest talking to others who have made similar career changes. Your medical input is very valuable in the medical IT field. I wouldn't recommend a "vanilla IT" position to you...if there is such a thing, because as many readers have said, it's hard times in IT. My girlfriend is a programmer who was laid off recently, but luckily found a new job yesterday. Most of her IT friends, however, haven't been as lucky.
Good luck to you!
I'll give you an answer if you answer mine - I'm am IT prof. w/over 14 years of experience, who is contemplating a medical/Doctoral degree. Anyway,
I am currently managing a Healthcare project, and one of my analysts is a Doctor. His contribution has been huge as the language/procedures used within a medical facility are far more complicated than your basic web commerce application, and I can't imagine how our project would be evolving without his expertise and input. To boot, he understands Java, UML and related tools. Thus, his knowledge spans both the problem and solution domains which makes him a valuable resource.
Assuming you don't want to get out of Healthcare, I'd say, figure out where your interests lie and go for it! If you want to get completely out of Healthcare, heed the negative-toned replies.
My $0.02
It seems to me like I'm the only one here who doesn't have some sort of a degree... I came out of highschool and was lucky enough to land a paid internship working for the government, which, albeit I'm kicking myself for not sticking with, helped me get into my current position. I currently administer a network of about 330 workstations. How is this post not off topic you may wonder? It proves my theory that if you have a passion for something coupled with the drive to learn and grow towards something you want to do, no number of certifications or degree's can replace that. More power to this guy if he wants to change professions! Sometimes I hate my job, sometimes I love it. One thing stays constant: I am a geek. I love technology and all permutations of it. To stay away from something just because the money isn't that good is ridiculous. Follow your passion and you'll find happiness.
-\|/-\|/- If its not 1200 baud, its crap....
You teach me everything I need to know know about medicine and I'll teach you everything you need to know about computers.
Wait... my dad was a doctor... that means you HAVE to teach me, doesn't it? I pretty much have to teach everyone in my family about computers, and most of the time I enjoy it and realize it's worth it.
We really need an oath for the computer folks. Something that says, "I will prepare for hard drive crashes." (Mine crashed today... last ghost in October... d'oh)
M@
Krispy Cream is people
Okay, I don't get this, a phsycian, with the handle womenshealth, wants to join the crowd of sad computer fanboy slashdotter computer technologists?
I don't understand...
Many others have said that if u want to go into software ur best bet is medical software.i just want to support this view.i am a chemical engineer and write software for chemical engineers which is a niche area and uses my knowledge of chemical engineering and allows me to pursue my interest in programming. Mit ocw is a good place to learn but remember that no one learnt computers just by reading about them. U must learn to use many different packages and also some programming languages. Just try to find out what kinds of softwares are available for meds and more importantly what are the softwares u wish for but havent been written yet!
Well after long enough just reading and never posting, this seemed like a relvant topic to post on..
Here is my $0.02. I'm 4th yr Comp Sci in University in Canada (which is good to some ppl but bad to other ppl) it depends on who you ask I guess....
Personally I am conflicted. Markswise I am a borderline A student, depending on how this term goes. If it goes good I'm an A, if not I'm a B+. Even though with the stiff competition thats not good enough to get you into a lot of Maters programs here...
The story I've always heard from people (at least through high school) is that your supposed to do something you liked. I feel like I'm a very versatile person and I could've majored in business, biology, chemistry or even something artsy like history, but i decided on Comp Sci, because I enjoyed it and felt like it had a future. One of the rationalizations that I had in choosing Comp Sci. was "because computers are never going away."
Sometimes I worry about my future and sometimes I feel confident. I guess it depends on whos opinion I give more weight to, either the people mentioned before in this thread who got lucky coming out of high school 5-6 year ago and could get a good paying job just knowing VB or the person who just came out of University knowing some design principles and experienced in a lot of languages... even though my feeling is once you know how to program in one language you can figure out how to program in them all. In my Univ. career I've done assignments in Java, C, Ada, COBOL, Php, Perl and JavaScript for example. Plus I did VB in high school, which was a lot easier then my university assignments.
I know there was a discussion on this thread about the merits of a CS degree, but i want to hear opinions about if someone in my position is hopeless.
As to my thoughts toward womenshealth, I think if your smart enough to become a doctor, who does something important like saving peoples lives, why can't you conquer IT? My current opinion on this Industry is that knowledge sells.
Nonetheless, thats my $0.02.
.. three laid off IT techs get together and setup a website, hosted in India, for remote IT services.. they provide from their cozy homes back in the USA, a dumb blond is involved of course, could be guy or girl, these days, and together they sucessfully extort millions of rupies from Big Blue.. a dubiously named evil empire antagonist.. morals insue as they feel guilty for getting boyfriend, girlfriend next door laid off.. cultural hi-jinx ensue, wedding takes place in the Taj Mahal. .. the words your look for are.. Good Grief! Charlie Brown..
No one's reading it anyways...
I am surprised there isn't any REAL advice you can use in the 5 point answers. I hope this makes it up there for you to read - or that you read it anyway.
How interested are you in a CS degree? Will you have the time and energy to do it after a few eyars of practising medicine? Will you be able to have the income cut off for a period of time? Are you thinking Master's or Ph.D? What do you mean "break into" the industry - what DO you want to do with the degree (or just education/experience without a degree)?
I have always believed that for *most* people, computer skills should be a secondary skill, with primary "domain knowledge" in another area (these days, you MUST have computer skills for any field). If you have the passion to get an MS/PhD in CS and then combines the knowledge of both domains and invent/discover something or build something new (and want to be the "top" of the research scientists/engineers in those fields) [i.e., make the world a better place] I wish you good luck. If you just like programming computers and want to be a programmer, get a computer (bet you already have one) and learn programming as a hobby, but forget a career in "IT". You are a lot better off with being a Physician.
-srr
Came out of school, and no one would touch me. I mean, I couldn't even get an interview--it was horrible (the company I'd interned for had, alas, gone out of business). I was actually thinking of getting a civillian programmer job for the army when I ended up finally landing an interview and a job with the first place that actually called me back, one of the biggest software companies in the US (think security). I thought I'd hit the jackpot. They put me in QA (Quality Assurance). That was two odd years ago
QA is hard fucking work, but nobody ever seems to want to admit it. Even if you're knee deep in code yourself, everybody is shocked when you know what a "cout" does. Noone thinks you have a degree (much less in CS) or that you could possibly have any business sitting in on a code review for a product that you're eventually going to be testing.
And just testing software for holes, even for positions that don't require you to write testharness code, isn't the easiest thing in the world. I should know because I have a lot of coding experience for someone in my QA Dept, but I'm far from the best tester. It's a skill, and not everyone has it.
Not that anyone recognizes this, of course. People think any monkey could do your job. The token guy who's there for neptoism reasons, though, throws that whole theory out the window. (Guy in my office is named Bob, and he happens to be an imbecile.)
You never get any credit, even though if dev had released their code without our scrutiny it would've sucked so badly that the universe would've imploded upon itself (not to mention the stock price would take a hit). Everyone thinks we spend too much time testing. If the software gets released and it has a major flaw, guess who gets the blame?
I might as well have minored in IT at school. All the work setting up test computing environments, some days I feel more like a Solaris admin than anything else. Granted, real admins severely outclass me in their knowledge of things IT, which only makes my job harder because I learn adminning in little pieces without always getting the big picture. I mean, I'd never even taken a networking class in college, I figured what was the point? (boy, do I feel stupid now) Did I mention that some (far from all, most of the guys I work with are great) developers end up resenting you because you're the asshole that's always finding flaws in their software? Or that you could have a supervisor who kisses management's and development's ass so often that it never occurs to him that development might not be able to reproduce a bug because maybe, just maybe, they fucked up?
Dont' get me started on the overtime. That same idiot supervisor? He gives you a million things to do and while he almost never explicitly asks you to work overtime, there's no way you could get all of this done in forty, or even fifty, hour weeks. I've done sixty weeks for two month stints, and it blows. Yes, I know people who've worked longer hours than that in the computer field, but until you've worked them yourself in a position that gets no respect you have no idea how much it really sucks.
I've thought about a possible career change. I have maybe two years salary (after taxes) already saved up. I'm a frugal little bastard. Maybe I could get a law degree, go to public policy school. The problem is that, while I could go without many luxuries, I wouldn't know what to do about health insurance. Going without health insurance for a few years in the US is like playing Russian Roullette: you're probably going to win, but you're fucking screwed if you lose.
Umm, apologize for the rant. Posting anon for obvious reasons.
Hello:
I'm another "pissed off programmer" who is standing on the verge of losing his job to India. I currently work at Sprint, and I'm hoping that I can jump to another group that isn't being outshored and make a crappy job last for the next 18 months while I complete the pre-requisites for Optometry School. All I can say is that software programmers are the modern day steel workers from 20 years ago.
Learn to speak Hindi, and then 10 years later, learn to speak Mandarin.
Good luck, you'll need it.
I heard that the lateast trend is to ship waiter/waitress jobs overseas to china and india, While the service may be a little slower, the workers say they are happy to make a fraction of what their counterpart waitress in the u.s. makes and they dont mind at all serving a cheeseburger to a table 6000 miles away to make a $1 tip.
I was on a premed track in college, but got out of it (this is 15 yrs ago). I am now in IT and business coordination.
A lot of people say it is a dead end industry and maybe they are right, at least people seldom seem to make money decisions based on quality. HOWEVER I have to tell you that I was taking organic chemistry and wanted to be a doctor like my father. HE told me to get out of medicine because the writing was on the wall, unless I absolutely had to be a doctor. Now with the way doctors are looked down upon and have their lives run by insurance companies, combined with the seaming freedom of open source software, I can totally understand one reason the poster might want to leave medicine.
Let me just say that what I really wanted to do was nanotech but it was 10 years too early. I'd be doing bio/nano now if I was in college now. Medicine plus information technology is not at all dead, it is one of the major amazing, growing fields now. Of course if you are interested in doing medicine somewhere you don't have to join an HMO, you could move, also I can recommend you to the Sihanouk Hospital in Cambodia which a friend started and they also need good physicians.
My suggestion is to take some time to consider what you enjoy in medicine and IT, and see how they combine. Also you might be in a very good position to start a lucrative venture with programmers and get a big chunk of investment from someone. This is a HOT field. If you like the research side there are also likely opportunities. Why not spend a lot of time looking at what people are doing in bioinformatics, medical research, therapeutics, neural science, etc. Good luck and report back!
While a degree matters in the academic world and certain portions of industry, if you have any talent for this stuff at all then a University is the wrong model. We are really craftspeople, not scientists, and the right model is a medieval master craftsman's shop and apprenticeship. You can teach yourself by just starting a project, asking questions, reading and thinking hard - and you will be productive long before any place will have given you a degree. The sheepskin doesn't get you a job these days either. Sure you will find it hard to get the first job if you go to Fortune500 and paid headhunters. So don't - use your network and find a small office that will take a chance on you, or volunteer your programming skills at a charity. If you're good at it you'll find work; after all, you don't have to mention that your Doctorate is not in CS :-)
I've had a lot of success hiring empty-nest women (usually) with no formal computer training at all and turning them into damn fine engineers. You can teach engineering to someone who can think a hell of a lot easier than you can teach thinking to someone who can engineer.
Ivan
If you want to leave medicine because you are tired of the long hours, and being constantly on-call, and fighting endless bureaucracy, stupid government regulations, no time to keep up with rapid technological change, and your work (like reading Xrays and lab reports) is rapidly being moved offshore... well forget programming.
I have worked in government IT as both an employee and a contractor. I have also worked in IT jobs in non-profits and in Fortune 50 companies and they are all lousy. A former IBMer I know used to describe systems work as "blue collar" because of the terrible hours, lousy working conditions, and total lack of respect for IT professionals.
If you want decent pay plus job satisfaction and security (a job that can't be moved offshore) then learn skills useful for home remodeling or automotive repair.
As is typical with most /. replies, 99% are pure BS.
I took the same path as you, except I saw the handwritting on the wall a bit sooner and punched out of med school early in the second year about 15 years ago. I went back into Biomedical/Clinical Engineering. I'm now responsible for making sure all the wonderful wireless stuff doesn't jam or otherwise screw up medical equipment and kill someone, is as resistant to hackers as possible, and a lot of other neat stuff. It helps that I absolutely LOVE my job, am GREATLY appreciated, and get paid a nice wage (enough that I can raise two teenagers without my wife having to work, and still be able to put a tidy sum in the bank after all the bills... AND I don't have to worry about "tail" insurance.) Your clinical knowledge is WORTH something, use it to your advantage.
Fear not, what you want to do is possible. When I got my Biomedical Engineering degree, the three main areas of interest were Medical Informatics, Rehabilitation Engineering, and Clinical Engineering. Though all three are interesting, I chose the Clinical path as I still get to work with patients in a clinical setting. I work with a LOT of folks who either have their MD or should.
Pick one of those paths, start moving toward it, and have a blast!
But seriously, look at IT type projects related to what you already do. That way you already have contact in fields you understand. Medical computing is still in in its infancy. I have several people in medicine [Dr, nurse, RT] in my family, at Christmas we were discussing how most Hospitals don't implement basic IT standards or process methods that even mom -n-pop machine shops implement... There's a lot of work to be done...and it takes somebody with some "reputation" to pull it off...the medical community has problems with IT because of the Geek factor.