Indian Techies Answer About 'Onshore Insourcing'

This is an unusual Slashdot Interview, since instead of using email I asked all the questions in person last week either at LinuxAsia2004 or in casual meetings with local LUG members and other techies I met during the conference. Some of your questions were answered quite well by other Slashdot readers in the original post. (Slashdot has many readers both in and from India.) I also inserted a number of personal observations, which I usually don't do in these interviews, because it seemed to be the best way to answer some of the questions. And some questions were nearly unanswerable, as you'll see when you read the rest of this article.

Before outsourcing, "hardship" visas, by RobertB-DC

Long before outsourcing to India became an issue, large IT companies like American Airlines [aa.com] were virtual H1-B "hardship" visa factories, importing large numbers of technical experts from India and other countries during the dot-com boom.

But when the boom went bust, and the layoffs came, H1-B visa holders were left out in the cold, unable to even look for a new job due to the terms of their visas.

Do the IT professionals you've met feel that US companies and the US government used bait-and-switch tactics to take advantage of cheaper non-US workers? Or did those applying for H1-B visas know what they were in for?

And a follow-up question: does anyone think that US companies will hesitate to leave their outsourcing partners high and dry as soon as they (again) find a cheaper alternative?

A:

Network administrator Manpeet Nemra says, "No, it was their choice to go. They always knew what the situation was. If you leave out the first few, the rest had contacts there and knew.

Others echoed his reply, and a few thought the questioner wasn't "thinking very clearly." One Perl programmer asked, "Does he think we don't have email lists and Web sites? We are techies. We stay in touch all over the world. We know what's going on everywhere, same as you."

On re-outsourcing: Ashvini Vishvakasarma, a consultant with Techspan, feels that American and European companies currently outsourcing work to India won't hesitate for a second to move their work elsewhere if they find a cheaper alternative. "They will move in a flash," he says. "They're leaving for the Philippines already. It's very disturbing for Indian programmers."

Average experience? - by El

How much experience do most Indian programmers have? It seems to me that in ramping up from a few hundred to thousands of programmers over the past few years, most of these people must be fresh out of school... how much training do people need before they start producing reliable results?

A:

It's common here for new grads (slang term: "freshers") to spend up to six months in a low-paid or even unpaid internship before they get a "'real" job. This is true not only of programmers and other IT people, but in almost all white collar positions. One of the desk clerks at the hotel I'm in is a new-grad management trainee who earns what she calls "a stipend that buys my clothes," and won't start earning her full starting salary -- about $330 per month -- for another four months.

Another factor (see other answers further down) is that some Indian programmers, like some American programmers, may be recent college grads, but have been messing with computers since their early teens or even before. The Delhi LUG's youngest current member is 13, and is dipping his toes into programming waters. Some of the college student members take on programming or Web projects for friends and family. In other words, many Indian new-grad IT people -- just like many new-grad IT people elsewhere -- may already have quite a bit of real-world experience when they get their "first" job.

Code Monkeys v. Architect? - by yintercept

Related to the experience question: Many US business pundits claim that the US is only outsourcing the low end code monkey and support jobs, and is keeping the higher end, more prestigious "project management" and architect jobs in the US?

First, is this the case? or is India also excelling in architectural and design work?

If it is the case, is there a resentment for the imperialistic attitude in only giving India the low end projects?

Finally, in a land where there are real monkeys am I making a big cultural blunder by calling people "code monkeys"?

A:

I got hit with a chorus on this one. The consensus was that in a poor country like India a job is a job, and one takes what one can get. If U.S. and European firms want to have Indians do only "low end" projects, fine. Meanwhile, home-grown companies are doing their own architecture and research, working desperately to build an India-based software industry that can survive after the "low end" outsourced projects move to China or wherever.

Response to the "code monkeys" comment, loosely translated into American English from Hindi-accented New Delhi English: "Ha, ha, ha, ha. It is the same everywhere. Some of us are good at this work, but many aren't. There are code monkeys everywhere. Real programmers, too, and real programmers here call code monkeys 'code monkeys' here same as anywhere else. Pass me another beer, will you?"

Quality of life - by Scott Lockwood

American workers have certain legal protections that drive up the cost of our wages. Do Indians have similar protections in the workplace? Are you allowed to organize into unions? How long is your work week? What are your working conditions like? What kind of benefits do you have? Vacation? Medical? Dental? Profit sharing? Stock options? I find myself wondering, if the playing field were truly level, would your labor still be so inexpensive?

A:

At least five people said a comment attached to this question in the original interview post summed up the situation nicely. Here's that post (from "Anonymous Coward"), repeated:

I work for a large Multinational Tech Co.

Do Indians have similar protections in the workplace? -- Yes. The rules are the same.

Are you allowed to organize into unions? -- Unions are definitely allowed by law. But as in the U.S there are no Unions of Software Professional. BTW, India is probably the only place in the world where there is a democratically elected communist state govt. In fact, the labor laws are stricter here. Its nearly impossible to fire Blue Collared Workers or Declare Bankruptcy.

How long is your work week? -- I put in the usual 40 hrs a week over 5 days.

What are your working conditions like? -- The food in the cafeteria is better here than what I had when I was in U.S :-)

What kind of benefits do you have? Vacation? Medical? Dental? Profit sharing? Stock options? -- Folks in India probably get more vacation than in the U.S. As per Indian Law there has to be at least 14 days of earned leave and 7 days of sick leave. This is excluding the 3 national holidays (Republic Day, Independence Day, Gandhi Jayanti); 3 Hindu Holidays, 2 Muslim Holidays and 2 Christian Holidays, Plus 1 State holiday; Unless they fall on the weekend. As far as Medical goes, Govt of India Rules specify that a group Medical Insurance Policy be taken out by the Co. Usually this works out to a coverage of about $10000 for about $40 a month. Profit Sharing, Stock Options and Employee Stock Purchase Plans all exist. In fact one of the biggest stories used to be the Infosys Stock Plan. Also, the Govt Specifies that 12% of your Salary be paid by the Company towards Pension each month. This earns about 9.5% interest.

I find myself wondering, if the playing field were truly level, would your labor still be so inexpensive? -- Thats because cost of living is far cheaper here. Food - about $50 a month, Rent about $175 a month, Entertainment, Eating out etc.. about $100 a month. So in all about $350 a month is more than enough. Whatever remaining usually goes into buying a car or a house.

Population vs. population with jobs? - by bc90021

With one billion people in India, what is being done to increase the number of employable people? Granted, while we in the US may not like our jobs leaving, it must be helpful to Indians. What is being done to increase the employability of the average Indian?

A:

This is a touchy subject. Less than 15% of the Indian population is what Americans would call "middle class." Many Indian workers live on between $35 and $100 per month, and one of the first sights a foreign visitor notices when walking out of the terminal building at the Delhi airport at midnight is people sleeping on the ground, right on the airport grounds. Begging is common almost everywhere except in communities and office complexes that have gates and guards to maintain control on who can and can't enter. I'll post several stories, with photos, on NewsForge later this week that will go into more depth about economic conditions in India and how the software industry does -- and doesn't affect them, but for now let's confine ourselves to a couple of quotes from Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay, who grew up in comparative poverty and is now a programmer/consultant who makes his living doing outsourced work for U.S. companies:

I grew up in a very poor village. My father made $10 per month as a schoolteacher. One bicycle was our only family transport. I went to college as a scholarship student. I did well in my exams, so the government paid for my education. Now I own two houses, and the workers I hired to build both of them had no other work, so that helped bring money into my village. My father and mother live in a house I built, too. I rent out one of the houses I own now and live in the other one. The money I earn spreads through the economy. Fathers work at better jobs because of my spending and can keep their children in school instead of having them go out to work early.

Mukhopadhyay believes that in the long run, to help technology benefit more of the population and raise living standards for all, India needs more of a "bootstrap economy. We need acceptance of the fact that innovation can come out of India."

He is not alone in this belief. Although the LinuxAsia2004 conference was heavily weighted toward speakers selling systems (i.e. Sun, IBM, and their giant brethren -- the "usual suspects") there were many small, quiet sessions that revolved around using computers and the Internet to distribute information to people in neighborhoods and villages where books are now rare and expensive.

The government talks constantly about uplifting all of India, not just the current rich and "middle class," but when you look at that one billion population figure and see the amount of money available, things still look bleak -- although India's economy is now increasing at a much faster rate than the population, so things are less bleak now than they were a generation ago.

But there is a long way to go. India's problems aren't going to be solved in a few years or even a few decades. This is an old country; Delhi has been continuously inhabited since about 1000 B.C., and in many ways life for some residents hasn't changed a great deal since then. India has only had an elected government since its independence from Great Britain in 1947, and politics since then have more tumultuous than not. While I was visiting, for the first time ever plans were being made for Cricket matches between the Indian and Pakistani national teams, with constant back-and-forth waffling by government people in both countries about whether the terrorism risk was acceptable. Last I heard, the match was going to happen.

So look for improvements in India overall, not just for the top 10% or 20% of the population. Just don't hold your breath waiting for all one billion Indians to become literate, well-dressed, and own motorcycles or cars (or even to have electricity and good plumbing), because even if every software job in the U.S. ends up there, and none later evaporate to even poorer countries, India's "modernization" could easily take a century or more.

Education Costs - by dachshund

How much does an Indian college education cost the typical student? Is it government subsidized, or are students expected to pick up the entire cost? And how does that cost compare to the average yearly salary of a college-educated technology worker (ie, how long does it take you to pay of college debt?)

A:

There's a big "it depends" attached to this answer. As noted above, Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay got a government-supported scholarship because of his high entrance exam test scores. Students with lower test scores but prosperous parents can also get into college. And now, according to one educator I met at the Centre for Development of Advanced Computing (CDAC), banks are starting to loan money to cover student fees at what she called "favourable interest rates."

According to CDAC students Vikas Gupta and Loveleen Choudray, it takes three to four years of work for most loan-supported students to pay off college debts. They told me 20% of university seats are reserved for free (scholarship) students, while the cost of a "paid seat" can range from 22,000 rupees (about $486 US) up to 72,000 rupees (about $1600 US), depending on the school.

This is eminently affordable for middle class Indian families (both Gupta and Choudray are going through college on their parents' tab) -- but don't forget that "middle class" is not a high percentage of the population. (See the next question and answer.)

Cost of living? - by demigod

What does a decent 2 bedroom apartment cost per month?

How about food for 1 month?

Utilities, etc?

A:

I was asking this question in New Delhi, India's capital city, and living costs in India vary as much as they do anywhere else depending on where you live. I met programmers who lived in apartments and houses that cost anywhere between $200 and $500 per month, and a few who lived in compounds their families had owned for generations. The consensus was that $11,000 or $12,000 (US) per year was plenty to support a middle class lifestyle. But "middle class" there is not the same as in the U.S. Some differences:

• Indians drive tiny cars by U.S. (or even European) standards
• The motor scooter or motorbike is common transport for young people -- and a 100cc bike is about as big as most get, with 150cc to 200cc considered powerful speed machines.
• If you don't own a car, you can hire one -- including chauffeur -- for about $10 per day.
• Forget public transportation. Buses are filthy and overcrowded. You're probably better off taking one of the seemingly millions of green, three-wheeled auto-rickshaws that are on every street in the city. (They are limited by law to three passengers, but I saw seven people get out of one...)
• Servants cost about $35 month to hire in New Delhi. Every "middle class" Indian household seems to have at least one live-in servant -- but few have dishwashers or other "household convenience" appliances.
• Food and clothing are amazingly cheap by Western standards. I mean seriously cheap, like less than 1/10 as much. On the other hand, programmers in India are professional workers who are expected to wear suits and ties for most business events (although most wear the same basic "jeans and t shirt" fashions as their U.S. counterparts when not required to dress up).

It's hard to put a one-to-one comparison on cost of living between countries with different cultures and economic imperatives. Medical care (and health insurance) are much lower in India than in the U.S., but then you can bring up the example of Canada and its national health insurance, for which Canadians pay higher taxes than U.S. residents.

Bottom line: You can have a decent life in New Delhi for around $12,000 US per year -- but to earn that much you'll probably need to have source of income from another country -- like programming outsourced from the U.S. or Europe -- because most white-collar jobs there pay $6000 US or less, and burger-flipping there is likely to net you more like $2000, which may not be enough to afford an apartment with electricity and running water. (And yes, plenty of people in New Delhi live without running water or electricity.)

Distorting the Economy - by BigBadBri

Not specifically about IT outsourcing, but more about call centre outsourcing - does the drain of educated people to call centres have any implications for the rest of the economy?

Call centre staff can earn more than teachers, police, nurses, etc - are those professions suffering as a result of the call centres picking out the English speakers?

Is this storing up problems for India's public sector in the future?

A:

I had a long conversation with a guy who works as a hiring manager for Prudential's customer service operation in New Delhi.

Let's note, from the start, that Prudential does not "outsource" to India. They own their own call center (or centre, depending on your spelling heritage) there. When you speak to someone in their New Delhi office, she -- and it is usually "she" -- is just as much a Prudential employee as someone working in one of their U.S. offices.

This call center woman is probably earning around $300 month (US), and without that job she'd be working in a shop for $100 per month. She works nights (so she can deal with calls from the U.S. during the U.S. business day), and one of her benefits is rides to and from work, so there is a whole transportation business sector that has developed to do nothing but take call center employees to and from work, not to mention cafeterias to feed her at work, Starbucks and other foreign chains (including McDonald s) where she spends her paychecks, cell phone companies that take her money because no techno-hip young Indian woman can be caught dead without a cell phone, at least from the examples I saw all around me.

Call center work is not necessarily permanent. It is a burnout job in India just as phone "customer service" work is in the U.S. It is also not that great on the pay scale. The breakfast waiter in the "American Diner" in my hotel said he made more waiting tables than he'd make in a call center; that he had friends who did call center work to help them get through college or whatever, but that no one expects to do it for life -- and besides, all those jobs will go to the Philippines sooner or later, anyway, so why bother?

So our Prudential guy is a good company man (who is not being quoted by name because he was not authorized to speak for the company, and the Pru gets tight about such things all over the world) and earns a nice salary, right up there with a programmer if not slightly higher. He's single, so he lives well, and friends say he has access to many potential girlfriends since he's in charge of hiring and training a workforce composed primarily of young women, which he acknowledges is a major fringe benefit.

Now the other side: There is no shortage of people in New Delhi to fill all the call center jobs -- and all the police, nursing, and teaching positions. and if all the people in New Delhi were suddenly employed, people from other parts of the country would flock there like mad, and if they don't know English they are willing to learn (including an American accent) if it will get them a decent job, and there are plenty of schools that will teach them either for an upfront fee or by taking some of their call center earnings after they get a job.

There is no shortage of people to do any kind of decent-paying work in India, period. The Army turns down at least 19 out of 20 applicants who want to be enlisted soldiers, and turns down 49 out of every 50 officer candidates, who must have college degrees even to apply in most cases.

This goes back to that whole "one billion people" thing. If a million of them work in "offshore" positions, that's only one out of thousand. Make it 10 million, and it's still only one percent of the population, and as the prosperity created by the 10 million working for offshore companies wends its way through the economy, more children will be able to go to school longer, which will make the workforce progressively more educated, which will increase the supply of potential employees for "first world" companies.

But don't forget: China, The Philippines, Vietnam, and other countries lurk in the wings, not to mention African countries that are still at the very beginning of the industrialization curve and have people more desperate by far than India has had for several decades now.

What about the long-term? - by The Night Watchman

This point has already been mentioned a bit by previous articles, but I'd like to hear an insider's take on it. The Indian tech economy is booming now, but like in the US, it's an unstable boom. Sooner or later, the US will look to other countries for their tech work, leaving India high and dry. What measures are being taken in India to maintain a strong internal tech economy, in the event that the US is no longer a serious customer?

A:

I got many answers to this question, and they all boiled down to, "We must build a domestic IT market."

But then, how can you do that in a country where a clerk costs less than a computer, and you have -- as one person put it -- "government officials out in the villages who are afraid to use a computer because they think the keyboards might give them an electric shock"?

Most people I talked to believe government is the only hope; that egovernment and other government projects are the only way to develop a sustainable local IT sector.

Next question (asked by Indians I spoke to): "Where is the government going to get the money?"

I was asked to pose this one to Slashdot readers. Consider it posed. Plenty of Indians would like to know the answer.

New Indian Startup Companies - by blueZhiftb

I'd like to know how long it will be before Indian tech professionals start forming startup companies to compete directly with their American corporate masters using what they have learned from them.

A:

It's already happening. Like mad. Half the people I met through the Delhi LUG are either self-employed or thinking about starting their own businesses. This could be a whole separate article, possibly even a whole series of articles.

Geek culture in India? - by Experiment 626

In the U.S., there is something of a geek subculture which Slashdot in particular caters to. Obviously, not all programmers are true geeks at heart, but among the people in America who are really fascinated by computers, you have a greatly disproportionate number who are into science fiction, RPGs/LARPs, Lord of the Rings, Legos, Anime, etc.

Does this apply in India as well? Would, say, a Unix systems programmer there typically have such things as interests? If not, are there analogous hobbies that distinguish the Indian geek from everyone else?

A:

After a few evenings hanging out with Delhi LUG guys (and yes, it's almost entirely guys), I realized that you could hold a joint meeting of the Delhi LUG and the Suncoast LUG here in Florida, and the only major differences would be the brands of beer ordered for the first round. The biggest argument would be over whose beer is better, followed by the ever-popular vi vs. emacs and KDE vs. Gnome controversies. Raj, from the Delhi LUG, and Logan, from the Suncoast LUG, would probably become huge buddies in about two seconds. I swear, if I closed my eyes while listening to Raj's bad jokes, sometimes I thought he was Logan -- and I mean this as a compliment to both of them.

All the Delhi LUG crowd reads Slashdot. For the most part, they read the same science fiction books and watch the same movies as their U.S. counterparts. The ones who play guitar know pretty much the same songs -- and generally (*ahem*) play with the same great skill -- as Rob Malda.

And the unmarried ones had the same complaints about never meeting appropriate girls, too.

Geek culture is worldwide. It's not exactly the same everywhere, but (so far) I've observed it first-hand in Mexico, Trinidad, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and now India, and I assure you, there are many more points of similarity than differences between its various "branches," at least in my (limited) experience.

Comments

whoa

[fjordboy]

I learn something new every day:

BTW, India is probably the only place in the world where there is a democratically elected communist state govt.

I always thought the two things were mutually exclusive...I had no idea it was possible. I'm gonna have to look this up online...that's really interesting.

Re:whoa

[Creepy Crawler]

Why not? If the majority of the people (democracy) want a equal-split share system such like communes (communism), why not grant it?

What wouldnt make sense is a Capitalistic Communism or a Dictatorial Republic or Organised Peaceful Anarchy.

Re:whoa

[fjordboy]

I'm not saying the guy is wrong...I just never heard of such a thing before. I guess that shows how little I know of India's political system....I found his statement fascinating and I'm looking up some information on it right now. I think it's really interesting.

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

Democracy is a governmental system.
Communism is an economic system.
They are totally orthogonal. Anybody who believes differently has been fooled by McCarthy's propoganda.

Re:whoa

[geoffspear]

That's because Americans are brainwashed from birth to believe that "Communism" means "evil form of dictator-controlled government based around the idea of killing all Americans", rather than a political philosophy dedicated to the rights of the workers.

The fact that most governments that have called themselves "Communist" have been ruled by elitist nutjobs whose only motivation was to increase their own power doesn't help, of course.

Re:whoa

[kalidasa]

Communism is an economic structure. Democracy is a political one. There are also totalitarian capitalist countries.

Re:whoa

[calmdude]

Umm, I was in agreement with you until the last one. An organized peaceful anarchy is possible. In an anarchist society, it is possible to be organized (worker and community groups) and peaceful.

Find out more by reading a Q&A with Noam Chomsky.

Re:whoa

[maxbang]

It's West Bengal, bro, my home state in India. Last time I went over there, my cousins gave me hell for wearing my favorite red hoodie.

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

I had no idea it was possible

I sense US education in politics.

Re:whoa

[Elwood P Dowd]

Communism doesn't have to have anything to do with totalitarianism. Or Stalinism.

There are _real_ elections in China. It's weird how many Americans don't realize that.

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

Look up the states of Kerala and West Bengal.

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

What wouldnt make sense is a Capitalistic Communism or a Dictatorial Republic or Organised Peaceful Anarchy.

Someone's played too much Civilisation. A republic is defined as "A political order whose head of state is not a monarch (and in modern times is usually a president); A nation that has such a political order."

In other words, whether a country is or is not a republic doesn't depend on the way it's governed, just on who the figurehead is. Iraq was a dictatorial republic under Saddam, Soviet Russia was a dictatorial republic, and there are plenty of dictatorial republics in Africa right now.

Re:whoa

[rilister]

Kerala also has an elected communist state government - and a literacy level of over 90%.

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

one is a political system, the other is an economic system. they have nothing to do with one annother, and in a matter of degrees, happen far more often than you'd know.

check out chile in the late 70's. before the cia helped to replace the democratically elected salvador allende with pinochet

Re:whoa

[Godeke]

Democratic elections can coexist with communist ideals, but usually the blend is called social/democratic not communist/democrating due to two things. The first is the "hot button" that the word communist represents politically, and secondly because true communism fails over a certain threshold population size. (Utopias usually were communal, and they worked until the freeloaders overloaded the system...)

You have to realize that there is a spectrum of political stances and different dimentions they go in. Mob Rule -> Representitive Democracy -> Republic -> Parlamentry Monarchy -> Dictatorship represent a rough sketch of the peoples participation in government. Communism -> Socialism -> Self Determination represent an axis of "how much support" the people should receive from government. These are rough, incomplete and off the top of my head, but you can combine any representational system with any support system, in theory. Likewise, the Capitalist -> State Run market axis is theoretically independent.

Modern usage has tended to blur the true meanings of these words. We seem to assume "Democratic" = "Representitive Democracy + Mild Socialism + Capitalism". It doesn't have to be that way.

Re:whoa

[mwheeler01]

A few things about Communism you might not have known: Communist parties exist in every democracy, in some places with great success. They put forth candidates like any other party. Iraq has a huge communist party that was suppressed under Sadam's regime. Communist parties are just far far far left leaning political parties who seem to be willing to comprimise their position on violent revolution. China calls itself the worlds largest democracy or something like that, despite the fact that it far from what Americans think is democratic.

Just thought I'd help clarify a few things.

Re:whoa

[RandBlade]

"Dictatorial Republic" Actually this would make sense. A republic is simply a state without a monarch for head of state. A military dictatorship could for instance be called a dictatorial republic.

Re:whoa

[otis wildflower]

Why not? If the majority of the people (democracy) want a equal-split share system such like communes (communism), why not grant it?

And you can spread your corruption evenly until you make it to Democracy or Republic...

Re:whoa

[rsidd]

"Communism" in India really means "parties that call themselves communist parties". These parties have a major presence in two states: West Bengal, where they've been in power continously for around two decades, and Kerala, where they've more or less alternated with the Congress. They have little or no presence elsewhere. Nonetheless, pre-1991 their policies weren't all that different from other Indian parties (or put another way, other Indian parties were highly socialist, almost communist, in their economic outlook). And in recent years, the government in West Bengal has been revising its economic viewpoint to a more market-friendly version, much like the Chinese government, except the Bengali one is elected, so it may soon be communist neither economically nor politically, but only in name.

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

>What wouldnt make sense is a Capitalistic Communism or a Dictatorial Republic or Organised Peaceful Anarchy.

Did you read the article? India's society and gov is democratically elected communist and decidedly capitalist.

There is definitely some peaceful anarchy.

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

There are _real_ elections in China. It's weird how many Americans don't realize that.

DEEREST CHINESE CITIZEN , PWEEZE fill out the follrowing form.

How would you like to be killed by your government for surfing illegal webpages.

A. Gunshot to the back of the head, bill my family for the bullet.

or

B. Gunshot to the back of the head, bill my family for the bullet.

Chinese elections OWN!

Re:whoa

[Creepy Crawler]

I was trying to be subtle with the nuances of "Organized Peaceful Anarchy".

Working anarchies such as the Ikung people (search anarchy on everything2.com) are no good over about 20 people. Also, if a group of people come together (organize) and plan for rules for everyone to follow, that would be government, albeit a small one. The Ikung have rules where banishment is allowed only under extreme circumstances, which would say there's some sort of loose government to define "extreme"...

I admit "Peaceful" was a jab at the common thinking of "Mad Max" type of anarchy. Murder, Rape, Arson: what normal people think about anarchy.

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

Deomcracy is a political system. Other political systems include fascism, monarchism, anarchism.

Communism is an economic system. Other economic systems include capitalism.

They are orthogonal concepts. American politicians and media for 80 or so years have caused this confusion.

Re:whoa

[lish2]

Think of it like this: Communism is an economic philosophy, compare it to capitalism. Democracy is a political philosophy, compare it to monarchy. You can mix and match. Democracy and capitalism often go together, but there's no real reason they need to.

Re:whoa

[katharsis83]

Capitalistic communism? Try China, where entrepeneuers/business-owners are allowed into the China Communist Party.

Re:whoa

[maxbang]

I did not know that! I don't make it down south that much, here or there. There goes my misplaced pride.

Re:whoa

[Espectr0]

It is. We are living that same type of goverment in Venezuela.

A communist elected by the people is a democratically elected communist goverment.

Re:whoa

[Rhubarb Crumble]

"Dictatorial Republic" Actually this would make sense. A republic is simply a state without a monarch for head of state. A military dictatorship could for instance be called a dictatorial republic.

Not in the real sense of the word, in which a republic is governed by representatives of the public. ("Res publica" = "public affair"). The original (roman) republic was governed by two consuls, one elected by each caste (plebs & patres).

However, in the 50's or so the tinpot dictators of recently independent 3rd world countries realised that people took them more seriously if they at least went through the motions of representative democracy, so they styled themselves as "President" rather than "God-king", called their country a "Republic" and held "Elections". (e.g., the last presidential election in Iraq, in which one S. Hussein got 100% of the vote).

Of course, that doesn't change what these countries are, which is despotic fiefdoms.

Re:whoa

[javiercero]

Chavez is not even close to communism.

Re:whoa

[pete-classic]

We seem to sit on opposite ends of the economic spectrum, but socially we are at the same extreme.

From an essay I'm working on:

Anarchy. What images does the word conjure for you? Try to picture "anarchy" in concrete images.

If you are like most people you probably picture images from the news. Depending on your age you might have images from Kent State, the Watts riots, the L.A. riots. Maybe images from Central America or China.

Consider the political environment surrounding those places and times. Was it anarchy? Anarchy is the absence of government. Hardly the case in any of the above examples. In fact the sort of chaos that comes to mind is actually associated with an over-abundance of government, not its absence.

-Peter

Re:whoa

[net_bh]

Just to point out, this is not the national government, but the government of a state known as West Bengal (Calcutta is the capital).

Re:whoa

[DAldredge]

It isn't a real election when you have to be approved by the state to run in it.

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

>That's because Americans are brainwashed from birth to believe that
>"Communism" means "evil form of dictator-controlled government based
>around the idea of killing all Americans", rather than a political
>philosophy dedicated to the rights of the workers.

Communisim isn't a philosophy, it's a political system in which the state takes away your property and gives it to others.
The argument that communism is just the idea that people should share their property is as accurate as claiming that national socialism is the idea that a nation should be strong and independent.

Re:whoa

[Guillermito]

> In an anarchist society, it is possible to be
> organized

Exactly. Anarchy is often used as a synonym of "chaos". In the political sense, however, it means "absence of government". The anarchists believe, indeed, in an organized anarchist society in which little or no formal government would be needed, since it would be replaced by people's self government,

Re:whoa

[Curunir_wolf]

It sounds more like India's "democratic communism" can also be as accurately described as "Capitalistic Communism". Certainly there are capitalist markets at work there, or Prudential would not be allowed to own their own call center, and there would be no such thing as a "tech startup", since by the strictest definition, only the government can start a company.

Just as communists can be placed in charge of government by a democratic process, a communist-controlled government can promote clearly defined property rights, well-developed commercial law -- and an entrepreneurial and professional class. In fact, these things already exist in India, as does an active stock market. So, for now, at least, this Capitalistic Communism (Communistic Capitalism??) exists, whether it makes sense or not.

Re:whoa

[calmdude]

It was more a philosophical post than a practical one. I haven't heard of the Ikung people, so I can't comment on that.

Anarchy comes from the Greek anarkhos meaning without a ruler. Communal and personal rules still exist, however, there is no political authority. As Noam Chomsky would say, all socialism is not anarchy, but all anarchy is socialist.

Re:whoa

[Telastyn]

Except communism isn't a political philosophy dedicated to the rights of the workers.

Communism is a economic philosophy that aims to distribute wealth equally.

That said, I'm fairly certain that India does not employ communism. They do from what I understand have a fairly rigid socialist government.

Re:whoa

[m0rph3us0]

Also, most dictatorships are capitalist nations.

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

McCarthy was a socialist, by the way.

Re:whoa

[Mikoca]

Well, Italy has had more than one democratically elected communist governments and this one is definitely not India's first (look at the 50s). And then there is Sweden... Communism can be everything else, but it is also surely a contagious idea. Discarding it just because of its Soviet and derived failures (and even those not complete) is naive, if not plain misinformed.

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

Because the only system that is not morally bankrupt is the one that prevents a majority from imposing its will on an unwilling minority. Some people call "rule by the majority" democracy. But there are also other terms for it, such as lynching, gang rape, and the tyranny of the majority.

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

HEY SCO, FIX YOUR SITE! http://www.thescogroup.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?ps=2 0&o=0&m=all&wm=wrd&t=&q=i+can+pull+better+source+o ut+of+my+ass

Re:whoa

[McShazbot]

Actually, communism is a political/governmental system and socialism is an economic system. Along those lines, democracy is a political/governmental system and capitalism is an economic system.

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

I sense EUROTRASH bias on slashdot.

Right, the force is strong with you.

Re:whoa

[nanojath]

It raises the interesting distinction between communism as a political philosophy and communism as it has generally been practiced. At it's most basic level, all communism means the direct and communal control of a society towards the common benefits of all members. So in fact democracy isn't mutually exclusive with this principle - a democratic decision-making process would seem to be the most sensible way for a society dedicated to direct and communal control to run things.

In the major examples of communist governments, the revolutionary ideas of Karl Marx were abused to promote the imposition of communism by force - and to the surprise of nobody with a brain and a sense of history, absolute power was found to corrupt absolutely. The leaders, who claimed to be managing the developing the communistic societies for the good of the people and the revolutionary principle, became simple despots taking advantage of their power for material gain. This demonstrates some of the inherent pitfalls of communism. If you decide that communal ownership of all property is necessary for an ideal communist society, well then somebody has to "repossess" all that property and redistribute it. As many have discovered, things don't always work out so well in that transfer.

You may not know that the Communist Party USA has been active continuously since 1919 - not a bad trick when you consider how deep anti-communist sentiments have been at times in the intervening period. They've even gotten the occasional candidate elected.

You couldn't say that India has a communist government. In fact, better minds than mine would have to explain how India is governed, because it's complicated. It is unquestionably true that world's first elected Communist government was in the Indian state of Kerala in 1957, and communist parties in India still play a role in politics today. It is interesting, and will stretch your ideas about what communism is and isn't, if nothing else (I'm not a communist, by the way, but I find the varieties of ways we try to govern ourselves interesting...)

Re:whoa

[Golias]

BTW, India is probably the only place in the world where there is a democratically elected communist state govt.

This is incorrect. Canada and Sweden both also have democratic elections, and are redder than Paris Hilton's eyes the morning after a three-day bender.

Re:whoa

[nelsonal]

Chile elected a pretty far left on the socialist scale government, in a fair election, and things went well until the US had had enough of communisim in the Americas and toppled him.
Many countries in Europe have socialist coalition led governments (parlimentary systems allow much more diversity in the party system then our representative system). Coalitions must be formed, so all the left of center groups bundle together and all the right of center groups joint together, and each woos the centerist groups. This is similar to platform building by each party here, but viewpoints all have to be expressed in a more public setting and if the ruling coalition loses the support of a major block (either in the middle or at the extreeme) they tumble and a new coalition calls the shots for a while.

Re:whoa

[Pentagram]

The political compass is an interesting site that classifies political viewpoints based on economic and social axes. It offers a test that attempts to define your views.

Re:whoa

[illuminatedwax]

What wouldnt make sense is a Capitalistic Communism

You mean China? China is a communist state, but they are very quickly moving toward capitalist forms of business. Governments do not need to subscribe completely to one theory or another. America has many Socialist facets to it, and China has many capitalist facets to it.

--Stephen

Re:whoa

[linux slacker]

The fact that most governments that have called themselves "Communist" have been ruled by elitist nutjobs whose only motivation was to increase their own power doesn't help, of course.

Exactly. Let's not forget that to those of Easten European descent (or their parents if not old enough):

Communism == evil form of dictator-controlled government intent on repressing their people.

And before you dismiss those people as "wrong", try to remember that they have lived in a Communist country, and usually have many bad memories of that system, and aren't likely to differentiate too closely between Communism as a political or economic system. I don't think that it's a coincidence that many of the staunchest supporters of Democratic-Capitalism have roots in former Eastern Bloc countries.

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

I swear the three you just described all fit California perfectly...

Re:whoa

[bofkentucky]

Then why was the solution to the Watts and L.A. Riots more government intervention and more taxes? Here's to hoping you get an A on the paper.

Re:whoa

[nilenico]

Nice...

I'm a "leftist libertarian", rougly in the same area as Gandhi, the Dalai Lama and Nelson Mandela.
*smirk*
/me feeling holier than thou

<sarcasm on>
Although, as the test says, there "is no right answer". Yeah, right. And "there is no spoon", either.
</sarcasm off>

(Disclaimer: I live in a social democracy in Northern Europe, and my views could be sligthly coloured by that. And my spelling. I'll stop now.)

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

This is true mostly only in Hong Kong. They get pretty good freedoms there. The government stay out for most part.

In most of rest of China, the government is into everything. China makes Hong Kong example of China, though not necessairly is this the case.

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

>Chile elected a pretty far left on the socialist scale government, in a fair election, and things went well until the US had had enough of communisim in the Americas and toppled him.
No things didn't go well at all, Allende completly destroyed the Chillian economy. The coup was American backed but Chillians welcomed it, seeing it was the only way to end chaos caused by Allende's economic policies.
BTW Chile is now one of the richest countries in South America, comparable to European countries. Unlike Cuba or even neighbouring Argentina.

I'm afraid you don't really care about all this and just wanted to post a clever comment not knowing some one will point out your wrong.

Re:whoa

[Thuktun]

"Communism" in India really means "parties that call themselves communist parties".

In the USA, we also have parties that call other parties communists.

Re:whoa

[LeoDV]

That is actually not how a Republic is defined. :-)

A Republic is defined as a regime where the powers are separate. For instance, legislative, executive and judiciary branches as in most modern democraties. However a Republic can very well be headed by a monarch. When Louis-Napoleon Bonaparte (Napoleon's grand-nephew) took over France thanks to a coup, he got crowned Emperor but maintained the Republic. His letterheads read "French Republic -- Emperor Napoleon III" A Republic doesn't have to be a democracy (defined as one where the leaders are elected) either. A regime can have separated powers and none of them are elected (like in most Communist regimes).

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

Communisim isn't a philosophy, it's a political system in which the state takes away your property and gives it to others.

And whether or not you would belive it, the US is turning about as RED as Russia ever was, especilly in this regard.

Check it out: most cities (and even the government of the US) have the power to take land away from one person, and give it to another (or keep it for themselves.) This is called Eminent Domain, and it's often used by Urban Renewal Authorities.

We're fighting about this right now. Our city wants to take away a lake (a very nice lake, that is near-pristine, and is the home for many animals) that belongs to a private individual, and give it to Wal-Mart. How fucked up is that?

First they have their city counsil label it "blighted". Then they condemn it, and take it away, even if there is no justification for it.

Hammer and sickle, pal. Hammer and sickle.

Re:whoa

[banzai51]

why the hell is this insiteful? Its wrong. Communism is a blend of econ/govnt. Communism is all about ownership: the state owns everything. who is the state? Why, the government of course. And name one Communist state that didnt' try and own and dictate every aspect of a person's life. Maybe you should talk to some people that actually lived under that system.

Re:whoa

[sniggly]

They're about as communist as European socialists are socialist. After all Tony Blair and Gerhard Schroeder are socialists. And at one time all Americans were liberals, democrats and republicans all at one...

Funny but useless things, labels are.

Re:whoa

[Ducon Lajoie]

Yeah. Pretty neat. Check out the litteracy rate in Kerala. It's above 95% IIRC. Quite an acheivement. Congress and some flavour of the CP have been in power there alternatively since the independance.

West Bengal also had quite a few communist governements in power over the years.

Re:whoa

[corbettw]

In an anarchist society, it is possible to be organized

Except that "anarchy" means "without order". So, no, it isn't possible to be organized in an anarchy, despite what Chomsky has to say.

Just because someone's earned a doctorate in linguistics doesn't mean he gets to change the definitions of words.

Re:whoa

[AJWM]

An organized peaceful anarchy is possible.

It may be possible, but it's unstable. It will sooner or later (probably sooner) succumb to either external or internal forces and become something else. Probably a dictatorship, since that's usually what follows anarchy.

It might work in isolation, for a relatively small group.

Re:whoa

[corbettw]

There are _real_ elections in China. It's weird how many Americans don't realize that.

And there are real crackdowns on disidents, too. So to say China isn't a totalitarian government is a little like saying Disney isn't a multinational media company.

As for communism != totalitarianism, the only way a communist system can work is for all power to be concentrated in the hands of a few, with no real checks and balances. If that isn't a prime example of totalitarian government, I don't know what is.

Re:whoa

[dasmegabyte]

I wouldn't say "brainwashed." I am a child of the '80s educated in the '90s and I know a lot of people who have a healthy attitude towards communism. My father, a staunch Dittohead, is one of them. He thinks communism is stupid, but not exactly "evil."

After all, the 1950s "Communism Is Evil" campaign in the media gave way to a massive "pity our Russian brothers" campaign, signified in the east by Perestroika and in the west by, um, Billy Joel's Leningrad. We watched Russia fall apart, watched China become basically a big factory for western goods, and watched the capitalist nations' prosperity rise and fall while the communists suffered massive problems with their supply chain.

I think the "brainwashed" American viewpoint is that communism tends to de-evolve quickly into petty dictatorship, because every time it's been attempted it has evolved thusly. Communism's government control afford easy nepotism and favoratism, making it more difficult for the common man to succeed. Ask an American these days wwhy communism is "bad," and that's what they'll tell you -- it runs crosswise of the Jansenist "American Dream." The whole "communists want to kill Americans" drivel of McCarthy died long before Roy Cohn.

Of course, the offshoot of this is that communism has tainted many other progressive social practices, with some people placing every idea from unionization to government health care in the "communist" bucket. Which makes it easier to ignore potential solutions. Shit, I consider myself a fairly independent thinker, but when some cat would hand me a "Communism Now!" pamphlet, I'd make sure it found itself nessled gently in the recycle bin.

Re:whoa

[pete-classic]

From Merriam-Webster Online:

[essay] 3 a : an analytic or interpretative literary composition usually dealing with its subject from a limited or personal point of view

It is not a school assignment.

It is self-evident that I am philosophically opposed to the "solutions" you cite.

I guess I'm not sure what you are driving at. I glean from your posting history that you are fiscally conservative. I am too.

I guess that you are socially conservative (i.e. "law and order.")

I am socially liberal . . . but we might have more in common than you think. I'm strongly pro-second amendment. I don't think that governments should be able to limit religious expression (i.e. school prayer). I think that abortion* should be generally illegal (thought I don't think it is a "federal" issue).

Hell, I'm probably more "conservative" than you on some issues.

I admit readily that I have jumped to some pretty quick conclusions . . . but you didn't give me much to go on ;-)

I hope you reply.

-Peter

* I don't think this conflicts with my libertarian world-view. Given that I believe that a fetus is a human being there is no more conflict than there is with a state murder statute.

-P

Re:whoa

[gnalle]

In that case the Roman republic was not a republic...

I call upon Merian webster as a witness:

Main Entry: republic

Pronunciation: ri-'p&-blik

Function: noun

Etymology: French republique, from Middle French republique, from Latin respublica, from res thing, wealth + publica, feminine of publicus public -- more at REAL, PUBLIC

1 a (1) : a government having a chief of state who is not a monarch and who in modern times is usually a president (2) : a political unit (as a nation) having such a form of government b (1) : a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law (2) : a political unit (as a nation) having such a form of government c : a usually specified republican government of a political unit (the French Fourth Republic)

2 : a body of persons freely engaged in a specified activity (the republic of letters)

3 : a constituent political and territorial unit of the former nations of Czechoslovakia, the U.S.S.R., or Yugoslavia

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

You are of course correct and thank you for the clarification. The point that i was really trying to get across is that communism != facism as most people seem that think that it does.

Re:whoa

[silentrob]

As others have already pointed out, anarchy does not mean 'without order', it means 'without government'

Order can exist without government, you know...

Re:whoa

[gspr]

I agree with you, but don't you go picking on Civilization, or Sid will have your balls in no time!

Re:whoa

[xtheunknown]

You are confusing form of government, with form of economy. You can have a Communist Republic(India?) , you can have a Capitalist Republic (USA), you can have a Communist Dictatorship (pre- 1989 USSR), you can have a Capitalist Dictatorship (Argentina under Peron), but you can't mix the two, i.e. Communist Capitalism. China might be termed a free market Communist state, although these days they are more like a Totalitarian Socialist Republic.

Strangely enough, it was Karl Marx who defined Capitalism in "Das Kapital".

If you want to know how a true Communist state is defined, read this "Communism: Theory of political and economic development proposed by Karl Marx and developed and implemented by V. I. Lenin. In Marxist theory, "communism" denotes the final stage of human historical development in which the people rule both politically (compare: democracy) and economically (contrast: capitalism). Since the government, according to Marxist theory, is essentially an instrument of class oppression, and the society which emerges in this final stage is classless, as this final state is approaches government will gradually wither away (compare: anarchism). See: proletarian, bourgeois."

Re:whoa

[Chazman]

There are also totalitarian capitalist countries.

Like the U.S. under Ashcroft?

Re:whoa

[Eccles]

Oh please. As the documents revealed in 2000 showed, the CIA worked to undermine Allende's government from the moment he won the election. Given that, it's hard to blame Allende's economic policies for the destablization.

Take, for example, this cable from CIA headquarters to Henry Heckscher, CIA station chief in Santiago, Chile on October 16, 1970:

It is firm and continuing policy that Allende be overthrown by a coup. It would be much preferable to have this transpire prior to 24 October but efforts in this regard will continue vigorously beyond this date. We are to continue to generate maximum pressure toward this end utilizing every appropriate resource. It is imperative that these actions be implemented clandestinely and securely so that the United States government and American hand be well hidden. . . . Please review all your present and possibly new activities to include propaganda, black operations, surfacing of intelligence or disinformation, personal contacts, or anything else your imagination can conjure which will permit you to press forward toward our (deleted) objective.

Re:whoa

[bofkentucky]

From the tone of your post I gathered you had at least some libertarian touches in there, just trying to smoke out whether it was a good troll (you got me) or genuine thought.

The question is still open to the statists around here, why was the solution to Watts more handouts?

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

That's because Americans are brainwashed from birth to believe that "Communism" means "evil form of dictator-controlled government based around the idea of killing all Americans", rather than a political philosophy dedicated to the rights of the workers.

So would this be similar to how the GNU "movement" is a political philosophy dedicated to the rights of the people to have access to source code?

Re:whoa

[IgnoramusMaximus]

You mean this gentleman brought these kinds of riches to Chile?

You dork, whatever damage Allende did economically and no amount of self-indulgence by self-congratulatory but tiny wealthy minority of today's Chile who benefited from Pinochet's doings can possibly justify what that bastard and his backers did. You are just a brain-dead neocon who believes that obtaining "wealth" is the purpose of the universe and no cost in human lives, pain or misery is too great to achieve that goal for the priviledged few.

Re:whoa

[Abcd1234]

Wow, speaking of wrong. No truly communist country has *ever* existed, so it's a little difficult to get the opinion of someone who has "lived under that system". Yes, that includes Russia, China, and any other country you'd like to mention. All of them were/are, in the end, dictatorships.

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

it isn't dedicate to the rights of all workers.
only to the rights of worthless ones.

everyone else is better off fending for themselves =)

Re:whoa

[Abcd1234]

they have lived in a Communist country

No, they haven't. They've lived in a dictatorship which decided to call itself "Communist", even though, in reality, it wasn't. Kinda like FOX referring to themselves as "fair and impartial".

Re:whoa

[davez0r]

oh man, if i hadn't just used all my mod points, i totally would have modded you +1 for the civilization reference alone.

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

>>they have lived in a Communist country
>No, they haven't. They've lived in a dictatorship which decided to call itself "Communist", even though, in reality, it wasn't.
Pray tell, why should You be allowed to define the meaning of this word Mr. Abcd1234 (if that is your real name)? Why should we use the definition You suggest, and not the one the Grandparent does?

Re:whoa

[corbettw]

Order can exist without government, you know

Not really. Once you have a set of rules striving to impose order on chaos, you have government. It might be a simple tribal council, or a shaman-led theocracy, but it's still a government. Even the Swiss Family Robinson had government, eg. the parents decided how their kids should behave.

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

Consuls weren't elected by the seperate castes. All the people voted for those running; those with the two highest totals won. Simple as that. For a good deal of their history, though, only the patres were allowed to run, and even when the plebs were allowed to try to become consul, they hardly ever won.

Re:whoa

[moosesocks]

Didn't the Soviet Union try this in the early 1990s?

Needless to say, they only did it once :)

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, like many words, this one has an established definition. You see there's these helpful things called dictionaries - perhaps you both should be using one as a guide rather than making up meanings to suit yourself.

Re:whoa

[pete-classic]

I wasn't trolling. The article will appear on my site (hutnick.com) Real Soon Now(TM).

Too bad you got modded troll :-(

I think of myself as libertarian. The Libertarian Party platform is fairly well aligned with my political beliefs.

The party is in an accord that abortion is not a "federal" issue, but is somewhat divided over it morally. There is another party called the Constitution party which is pretty much a carbon copy of the Libs except that they take a stand against abortion, and they have a very Christian tone.

Being an athiest I'm somewhat torn :-)

-Peter

Re:whoa

[ragnar]

There are also totalitarian capitalist countries.

Bull. I challenge you to name a capitalist country, let alone one that is totalitarian.

Re:whoa

[swillden]

Our city wants to take away a lake (a very nice lake, that is near-pristine, and is the home for many animals) that belongs to a private individual, and give it to Wal-Mart.

What does Wal-Mart want with a lake?

Re:whoa

[pjdoland]

I'll tell you why...

If the majority of the people (democracy) want to shove a SMALL MINORITY OF PEOPLE IN OVENS, why not grant it?

Democracy is BS. At least our founders were smart enough to recognize this (read The Federalist Papers) and create mechanisms to protect us from ourselves.

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

>Oh please. As the documents revealed in 2000 showed, the CIA worked to undermine Allende's government from the moment he won the election

The soviets undertook significant efforts to undermine governments in Europe (most notably RAF in Germany but also similar actions in France and Italy, more subtle in other contries), Korea and other US aligned countries. And yet those countries did not plunge into chaos.

Re:whoa

[good soldier svejk]

Exactly. Let's not forget that to those of Easten European descent (or their parents if not old enough):

Communism == evil form of dictator-controlled government intent on repressing their people.

And before you dismiss those people as "wrong", try to remember that they have lived in a Communist country, and usually have many bad memories of that system, and aren't likely to differentiate too closely between Communism as a political or economic system. I don't think that it's a coincidence that many of the staunchest supporters of Democratic-Capitalism have roots in former Eastern Bloc countries.

OTOH, In the 2000 elections 29.2% of the Russian electorate voted for the Communist Party of the Russian Federation candidate Gennadiy Andreyevich Zyuganov. Likewise, the Communists received 12.7% of the vote for the Duma (lower house of parliament, the upper house is not directly elected). Putin, garnered 52.9% of the presidential and The United Russia Party 37.1% of the Duma vote. And this was a significant defeat for the Communists, who had polled much more strongly in the previous elections.

Re:whoa

[TheSync]

Yes, India's socialist government repression of the free market has kept them poor since independence in the 1940's, while other poor countries like South Korea and Taiwan have developed near western-level economies in the same time span.

Only since 1980 has there been major free market reform in India, and in the last ten years you have seen significant GDP growth there year after year.

Re:whoa

[overunderunderdone]

No truly communist country has *ever* existed

Bull, they existed and they failed in exactly the manner that their critics predicted (devolving into brutal dictatorship, deadening bureaucracy and eventual economic stagnation). If you are saying no country has ever succeeded in implementing *working and successful* communism I would happily agree with you because such success is, and was, impossible.

All of them were/are, in the end, dictatorships.

Yes, but they were communist dictatorships. Dictatorships of the proletariat doomed to failure because those hastening the abolition of class found that the proletariat that were supposed to be dictating weren't all on the same page and needed someone else to dictate to them.

...this is also a political transition period in which the state can be nothing but the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat. - Karl Marx "Critique of the Gotha Programme" 1875

Re:whoa

[Mantorp]

me too, I'm surprised, thought 15 years in the capitalist mecca USA would have swayed me more to the right.

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

>You know, like many words, this one has an established definition. You see there's these
>helpful things called dictionaries - perhaps you both should be using one as a guide rather than
>making up meanings to suit yourself.

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dicti on ary&va=communism&x=0&y=0

a : a doctrine based on revolutionary Marxian socialism and Marxism-Leninism that was the official ideology of the U.S.S.R.
b : a totalitarian system of government in which a single authoritarian party controls state-owned means of production

Re:whoa

[Goldsmith]

No, I actually read the Communist Manifesto, and the "killing everyone" kind of communism is what I found there. Engels was all about workers righs, but it was corrupted by Marx into violence.

What most Americans don't know is that the first communist experiments were in the US. We have a long history of "utopian communism".

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

My guess: To bathe all the illegal workers they employ.

Re:whoa

[Rotten168]

Not in any Western sense are they "capitalist" nations.

Most dictatorships are put into place to favor the cronies of who is in charge of the government, therefor most new businesses require some kind of sanction from the state. In a "true" capitalist nation, all that is required of new business ventures is capital.

The key difference is that government cronies don't like competition whereas capitalism thrives on it.

Re:whoa

[Rotten168]

Didn't Chavez dissolve Parliament/Congress?

From what I read he's no benevolent democrat.

Re:whoa

[twilightzero]

The anarchists believe, indeed, in an organized anarchist society in which little or no formal government would be needed, since it would be replaced by people's self government

I would love a state of true anarchy...except for one little proble. You see, it's been proven time and time and time again that people generally have no self governance. People, on the whole, are greedy selfish nasty little bastards. Deep down inside, after basic needs are met most people you know probably care more about their self-profit than they do about anything related to others. On top of that, they have no built-in governor that tells them "this is enough, you don't need to be richer". This is why we get greedy businesses like Enron, Worldcom, even PTL & Jim Baker. And it's not just money either, the same thing when taken to extremes leads to Hitler, Castro, Stalin, Saddam, and all their brethren in corrupt power wielding.

That's why we need government. To protect the people from themselves and each other. Because without a system of government, most people pursue single-mindedly - and without regard for others - profit and power for themselves.

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

Communism is not love. Communism is a hammer which we use to crush the enemy.

Re:whoa

[Rotten168]

By definition there are no totalitarian capitalist countries. Capitalism is an economic system in which capital is free to drive investment and is the only barrier. By limiting that capital cannot be used to create an entity that speaks out against the government, you therefor do not have pure capitalism.

On the other hand there are no purely democratically capitalist countries either, you have to draw the line somewhere afterall. But democracies are almost always invariably more capitalist than dictatorships.

Re:whoa

[elvum]

Tony Blair is *not* a socialist - he and the "New Labour" movement he founded are broadly centrist with a few right-wing leanings, notably on the issues of asylum, civil rights and privatisation.

Re:whoa

[edyavno]

Very close, but not quite. "Capitalistic Communism" does not exist.
Communism by definition does not recognize private property because the core of this theory considers it the source of inequality. As such, all property belongs to the government, which pretty much automatically makes it the sole major employer. No communist country has ever had a successful economy , which makes a pretty good argument that this theory has failed. There's still only 2 "communist" countries in the world that follow the "no private property" rule - Cuba and North Korea. Many other countries, however, do practice, what's probably much closer to Capitalistic Socialism - equalizing the income and opportunities through taxation and many government sponsored social programs. National Insurance subsidized by high taxes in Canada - mentioned by Rumblimo - is a good example. From my limited knowledge about India's economy, the government not only doesn't reject private property, but attempts to promote it. Which is one of the reasons why it has been so successful in getting outsourcing deals from the American and European businesses, ahead of Philippines, China, and Russia.

Re:whoa

[Rotten168]

No, communism described by Marx is clearly as much of a political movement as it is an economic one. I think that you're thinking of socialism.

Re:whoa

[Abcd1234]

Thank you for making my point:

...this is also a political transition period in which the state can be nothing but the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat.

This stage is NOT communism! This is an intermediate state which Marx felt was necessary during the transition *to* Communism. Thus, no truly communist country has ever existed... they've all stalled out in this intermediate state and subsequently devolved into socialist dictatorships.

Re:whoa

[Wolfkin]

"Organized Peaceful Anarchy" makes perfect sense. Most people in the US buy groceries which are provided by a mostly anarchic system (that is, no one forces the farmers, truckers, grocery stores, et al to provide their services).

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

The anti-abortion position is inherently non-libertarian.

The status of a fetus as human or non-human is irrelevant. Libertarians would rightly oppose compulsory organ donation, or compulsory shelter, care, and feeing of the homeless, destitute, or crippled on someone's private property. Hell, even if the helpless people been invited on the property in the first place, no libertarian could rationally condone the state forcing someone to continue to shelter and feed the indigent at private expense. If they were to stay past their welcome, the use of force to expell the intruders would be fully justified. The situation with abortion is no different.

If you are against abortion, you are an unrepentant statist.

Re:whoa

[kalidasa]

Indonesia. And before around 1989 or so, it was heading totalitarian. So was Chile, though it was less capitalist than many.

Capitalism like socialism is a matter of being nearer to one or the other end of a spectrum. Most states have both socialist and capitalist features. Those that are primarily capitalist are those with lots of private ownership and little regulation of the market. Thos that are primarily socialist are those with lots of government ownership and lots of regulation of the market.

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

There were no 3rd world countries in the 50's.
It was a term India invented in the 60's.

Re:whoa

[kalidasa]

No "pure" totalitarian, "pure" capitalist countries, good point. I should have said "authoritarian capitalist countries." You see, authoritarianism does tend to cluster economic advantage in one of two ways: state ownership with oligarchic control, or monopoly ownership with oligarchic participation.

Re:whoa

[SmilingMonk]

Look into information on the India state governments of Kerala and (if memory serves) Andra Pradesh. Similarly, there are heavy democratic socialist leanings in the state of Karnatika. These should get you started. There are others.

I hope this helps.

Re:whoa

[roadkill-maker]

Its not actually Communism, though they call it that. True Communinsm is a classless society with a pure democracy, which they don't have. The correct term is Socialism, which was first designed to be used as an intermediate step between Capitalism to Communism.

Re:whoa

[budgenator]

two things were mutually exclusive...
it' the opposistion parties that communists strongly tend to avoid, elections in communist coutries have higher turn-out than happens in non-communist countries.

Re:whoa

[IthnkImParanoid]

Probably too late to get modded up, but if you haven't heard of it you may want to look up "Tragedy of the Commons" on google. The name comes from a major cause of famine in Europe, which promoted the creation of small town governments to prevent it from happening again. It's both an excellent general analysis and behavorial case study for why self governance doesn't work, even with relatively low populations without even considering crime.

Re:whoa

[magores]

democracy is not the opposite of communism.

Compare democracy with autocracy, and capitalism with communism.

Re:whoa

[Hektor_Troy]

Heh ... same here (Denmark)

My score:
Economic Left/Right: -6.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.62

I'm surprised I'm that far from Chirac and Blair, but on the other hand, they are from different cultures (even though they're both european).

I'd be interested in seeing where the political parties in Denmark would end up.

Re:whoa

[Photon Ghoul]

This is getting way off-topic. You mention school prayer and the government "limit[ing] religious expression". What do you mean exactly? That government-run schools should enforce prayer at schools or that they should not? That statement is a little confusing to me. I don't see the banning of school prayer as limiting religious expression. Then again, I grew up as an athiest in the heart of rural Texas. If you were to experience that, you would know what I'm taking about. Try expressing that in the classroom and you'll be very sorry. School prayer is government *enforcement* of religion and the "moment of silence" is just as bad.

I respect your stance on abortion - but does your respect for human life also extend to capital punishment, the collateral damage incurred in the bombing of Iraq or the starving homeless that line U.S. streets and intersetions? Just curious, because I've found that most anti-abortionists/pro-lifers to make excuses to justify the other ills that are results of disrespect for human life.

Re:whoa

[ozborn]

At least one form of anarchy (anarcho-syndicalism) has more or less worked in the past (parts of Republican Spain during the Spanish Civil War) so I think you should up your 20 person limit. Google for the keywords if you are interested.

Re:whoa

[Kash-Mulc]

They are totally orthogonal. Anybody who believes differently has been fooled by McCarthy's propoganda. All I know is that a communistic democracy would travel in circles.

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

Well I actually live in that state as a student.

And, I would have to say that it is one of mos t backward state of its size in India especially, when compared to my home state i feel it is atleast 10-15 yrs behind. I mean really poor roads, very highly organised unions that have well nearly scared away all traditional industries only, IT companies are locating themselves here as it is a sector not unionized yet.

Re:whoa

[Elwood P Dowd]

China is a totalitarian government. I didn't mean to suggest otherwise.

Re:whoa

[Bush Pig]

Chile also had a democratically elected Communist government (briefly), until the CIA helped Pinochet topple it.

Re:whoa

[Creepy Crawler]

I like to think of myself as libertarian, but you know why I dont vote for libertarians???

The party is full of disorganized kooks. If the party had more organized leadership, I'd vote for them. Instead, I have to succumb some of my belifs and vote Republican. Sure as hell beats voting Democrap and having 1.6 Billion more go to Welfare and its ilk.

Even in the area where I live (Indiana), a local Libertarian which I did vote for changed to Republican. He will get my vote, along with having more vote for him.

Re:whoa

[Bush Pig]

And where, pray tell, was this particular dictionary definition generated?

Re:whoa

[_Sprocket_]

...wait. This is one of those subliminal reverse "In Soviet Russia" jokes, isn't it?

Re:whoa

[bjsh]

Well, the communist governments got elected in only two states. The communism is only in the names. The only difference between the communist government and the other governments here is more labor strikes.

Re:whoa

[overunderunderdone]

This stage is NOT communism! This is an intermediate state which Marx felt was necessary during the transition *to* Communism.

I was aware that this is the plan. Frankly I think it is perfectly fair to call the dictatorships that communists set up "communist dictatorships" but if you prefer I'll call them "transitional dictatorships".

Despite having been tried on several occasions by communists of various stripes, under various conditions, they never manage to *transition* to anything beyond brutal repression and finally utter economic disaster and collapse. Again this is the result predicted by the critics of communism (or would you prefer "transitionism?").

In every case despite the best efforts of the proletariat dictatorship to create "the new soviet man" no matter how tightly controlled the individual to force him to make the "right" "choices", to be "better"; no matter how many "counterrevolutionaries" and kulaks are starved to death, no matter how many are slaughtered to remove the stain of bourgeois culture and achieve "year zero" we never seem to get any closer to the sunny uplands of universal peace, perfect equality, and brotherly love where we can finally get rid of the government that has controlled every aspect of life in its effort to create this utopia.

Might I suggest to you that there is a flaw in the plan?

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

Dictionary.com may define a republic that way, but political theory defines republic as a mode of government where laws are passed by an elected assemby, as opposed to a democracy where laws are passed by a direct vote of the people.

Re:whoa

[valluvar9000]

This is right. Brings to mind Frank Herbert's view that aristocracy is the only enduring form of government. A monopoly-oligarchy politico economic scenario is the classic model throughout history.

Re:whoa

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

I'm not a Libertarian (i.e. libertarian-conservative) but aren't Libertarians in favour of abortion (because they are for individual freedoms i.e. against state intervention of personal issues)? If I remember correctly, they are also in favour of (human) cloning.

So this isn't really a FEDERAL issue. Some members may say that the party doesn't take a position (or something like that) but I think the party is totally in favour of abortion.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong about the Libertarian Party positions...

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

I think he was talking about Kearal.

You can find more details :
here and here

manoj

Re:whoa

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

That's why we need government. To protect the people from themselves and each other. Because without a system of government, most people pursue single-mindedly - and without regard for others - profit and power for themselves.

Your argument is similar to George Orwell's argument. Orwell basically said that anarchism will lead to totalitarianism. Some guy (or guys) will dominate everyone else and take them over. You are on a similar line of thought... Having said that, I think you, like Orwell, is wrong.

First of all, I'm primarily a socialist (with a bit of anarchism). So I support state intervention to some degree. BUT I don't support the state for the reasons you do. I view your reasons for supporting the state as dangerous! Consider the following:

To protect the people from themselves and each other.

What does that mean? Is that like 'we must destroy the village in order to save it'? :( You don't honestly believe that, do you? How can you really say that when the state (and prior to that, the monarchy) is responsible for more deaths than under even pure "chaos"? I don't need to go into examples; it is so blatantly obvious. Millions have died under state-sanctioned wars, executions, economic miscalculations, and so forth. You don't need to listen to me. You look up history. Also, don't forget that mass genocides are nearly ALWAYS started by the government (eg. Rwanda, Serbia, (Nazi) Germany, etc.) Or do you think that state-sponsored wars are perfectly ok?

People don't need the state to protect each other! They need the state to stop killing them!!!

Lastly, there is nothing preventing anarchists from developing the same institutions as now. For instance, you can still have a school, an inherently socialist institution with order. The only difference, under anarchism, would be that the school will be voluntary. The community will control it--instead of some central authority or some handpicked bunch of elites.

Re:whoa

[LeoDV]

*sigh* Merrian-Webster isn't a dictionary of political science or political philosophy.

No, the Roman Republic wasn't a republic in the modern sense (actually, it could be argued that the Plebeian Tribune acted as a counter-power to the Patrician Senate) -- just like the Athenian Democracy wasn't a democracy in the modern sense. However modern political philosophers since Jean Bodin and Montesquieu have defined a Republic as a regime where different areas of power are split into different governing bodies.

Re:whoa

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

Anarchy might mean 'without order.' But anarchism isn't. Anarchism is an econopolitical system. The mainstream masses have been brainwashed to think it is based on 'chaos' or 'without order' or some such nonsense, but the fact of the matter is that the system called anarchism has nothing to do with it.

If you want to simplify anarchism to one concept (an always dangerous thing to do with econopolitical systems), think of anarchism as a system without AUTHORITY. Anarchism is pretty much against authority. Right now, the #1 authority is the government so anarchists are against that; in the future, they may be against other forms of authority.

If you don't believe any of this, find some anarchists and ask them how many are in favour of CHAOS (or disorder)? Hardly any true anarchist would be...

Just because someone's earned a doctorate in linguistics doesn't mean he gets to change the definitions of words.

The dictionary definition is totally useless because it is biased. It is made up by elites and the mainstream plutocrats. This goes for most econopolitical systems. Look up socialism, or fascism, or whatever, and tell me if their followers support those definitions. It has always been this way. If you find old "definitions" of democracy (when monarchs were ruling), you would think it was some evil concept. Definitions are twisted by the plutocrats now (and monarchs in the past--not to mention the religious leaders) to suit themselves, and to demonize their opponents*. It's just too bad you don't realize this.

(* As a side note, another definition that is being twisted to suit the rulers of this world is 'terrorism'. The word is going to end up meaning something totally different from what it did 50 years ago.)

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

Democratic Communism = France
Totalitarian Capitalism = China

Re:whoa

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

Your definition of republic is what Americans use. But the original (and widely used) definition is the one quoted in a reply above (basically highest head is NOT a monarch; power rests with citizens). This definition pretty much means that more than 70% of the countries on earth are republics (and they are indeed called republics eg. Democratic Republic of Korea; Republic of Iraq). Americans mean something very specific when they say a republic (just like how what Americans call Libertarian actually libertarian-conservative).

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Re:whoa

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

That's not really true... because... if what you were saying were true, no country can be considered a democracy* (or even democracy-like). Countries that are NOT republics (eg. Canada) also have laws being passed by elected representatives...

I think what you are saying (laws passed by a direct vote) is called a DIRECT democracy. In contrast, all countries that are democracy-like are REPRESENTATIVE democracies.

(* I personally don't consider any country to be democracy. Instead, I call them other names like plutocracy, kleptocracy, etc. In general, I call them 'democracy-like').

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Re:whoa

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

Iraq (under Saddam Hussein) IS a republic. I don't see how you can say it isn't. Yes, he was a dictator but that doesn't change anything. For instance, if I take over USA legally (i.e. get elected*) and turn into a totalitarian of some type (say like Stalin), USA would STILL be considered a republic.

The point I'm making is, the type of system does not change just because of corruption. For example, a monarchy could be very "democratic" yet it will still be labelled a monarchy. What matters is the structure.

As a side note, who exactly would be a republic in your eyes (other than USA)? Countries like Iraq and North Korea actually have elections. They are rigged but people really get out an vote. If you say they are not republics, then what criteria are you using? Is it just something YOU made up and something that changes upon your will? These definitions should be based on (somewhat) objective criteria. Using the structure of government is objective. Trying to figure out how corrupt the system is not very objective. Would you consider a country like India (which is very corrupt) to be a republic? How about Zimbabwe?

(* I can't get elected of course. Since I'm an immigrant. Actually I'm not even American. But let's pretend these don't matter).

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Re:whoa

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

The Founding Fathers were talking about it but they didn't really implement anything to prevent it. I mean, what you are saying happened (although on a lesser severity). Good examples include freeing of slaves (totally against Constitution since govt can't strip property--slaves were property), and putting Japanese Americans in concentration camps. The majority basically steamrolled the minority in these cases.

So to sum up, there is no mechanism against "tyranny of the majority" in a democracy. Tomorrow, the US govt can start jailing Muslim "terrorist sympathizers" and you can't do anything about it--IF a majority supports it. Or it could start jailing "anti-Americans" and nothing would be done--IF the majority supports it.

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Re:whoa

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

I don't think that it's a coincidence that many of the staunchest supporters of Democratic-Capitalism have roots in former Eastern Bloc countries.

I'm not a supporter of any totalitarian system, and what passed for Communism in USSR was definitely one. However, what you said is meaningless. The descendents of the Eastern-Bloc parents may support democracy but the people back in Eastern Europe don't seem to be. The staunchest supporters of democracy has always been Europeans (in the recent era). I don't see any of the former USSR countries supporting democracies. Name one of the former ones that is anywhere near democratic. Nearly all of them are autocracies ruled by dictators. Even Putin in Russia, who has massive support, is a quasi-dictator.

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Re:whoa

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

Is what you are saying is true, why do many Americans (especially on the right and associated with the Republicans) red-bait? Why does it seem that nearly everything coming out of the left is shot down as communist and ignored?

Joe McCarthy may be died but his spirit is still alive and kicking.

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Re:whoa

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

What most Americans don't know is that the first communist experiments were in the US.

I didn't know that. Can you elaborate? I always thought it was France and Europe in general.

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Re:whoa

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

Very easy. In fact, this is more capitalist than even USA. That country happens to be...

Singapore!



Sivaram Velauthapillai

Re:whoa

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

What is you are saying is blatantly false. Unless you are cooking up your own definition of capitalism, capitalism says nothing of politics. Capitalism is an economic system! You can practice it with a democracy (politics) or totalitarianism (politics). Government banning speech has nothing to do with capitalism. Capitalism is solely based on free markets and private property (and a few other little details). In other words, capitalism is an economic system.

A good example of a totalitarian capitalism at work is Singapore.

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

The funny thing about the Soviet Union is that the Soviets (trade unions) were abolished - and made illegal - soon after the revolution, so they were left with what should have been called the Non-Soviet Union.

The original plan was to have the leaders of the soviets as the government... this didn't end up occuring, because the revolutionary leaders were to greedy to hand over power.

This is the result of most revolutions - the revolutionaries stealing power and using it for their own ends.

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's another one (the classic example)... Argentina under Pinochet.

There are *many* others. Probably more than left-wing dictatorships.

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

What was Pinochet's Argentina then!?!

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

Oops... sorry that was Chile under Pinochet actually.

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

Ummm... Pinochet was in Chile. But it's a good example anyway.

In fact there have been many totalitarian capitalist states in South America, and many more in Africa.

Re:whoa

[Rhubarb Crumble]

For instance, if I take over USA legally (i.e. get elected*) and turn into a totalitarian of some type (say like Stalin), USA would STILL be considered a republic.

Germany wasn't considered a republic after Hitler was voted into office - but he made no pretensions towards it, of course, and even changed the name of the country to reflect it.

The point I'm making is, the type of system does not change just because of corruption. For example, a monarchy could be very "democratic" yet it will still be labelled a monarchy. What matters is the structure.

Are you saying that Hussein's Iraq had the same political structure as the US, or of any european republic (quite different!) for that matter?

The question is, what institutions make a republic, by which I mean a representative democracy. A parliament elected by plebiscite, an independent judiciary, etc.. These things exist, to a greater or lesser extent, in every democratic country, but obviously you can argue that such institutions can exist in name only in what is otherwise a dictatorship.

Maybe a more practical test is whether the opposition can get into power. North Korea may hold elections, just like the Soviet Union did, but there is only one party that can win. It's a similar case in Zimbabwe, where opposition politicians are beaten and tortured for disagreeing with the "democratically elected president" Mugabe.

As far as I know, in India, even if corruption is rife, goverment can and does change at the will of the people. Therefore, India is a democracy, whereas NK or Iraq aren't. Does that sound reasonable?

Re:whoa

[Rhubarb Crumble]

Consuls weren't elected by the seperate castes. All the people voted for those running; those with the two highest totals won. Simple as that. For a good deal of their history, though, only the patres were allowed to run, and even when the plebs were allowed to try to become consul, they hardly ever won.

Not from the 4th century BC onwards. Read this.

Down to the year B.C. 366, the consulship was accessible to none but patricians, but in that year L. Sextius was the first plebeian consul in consequence of the law of C. Licinius (Liv. vi.42, vii.1). The patricians however, notwithstanding the law, repeatedly contrived to keep the plebeians out (Liv. vii.17, 18, 19, 22, 24, 28), until in B.C. 342 the insurrection of the army of Capua was followed, among other important consequences, by the firm establishment of the plebeian consulship; and it is even said that at that time a plebiscitum was passed, enacting that both consuls might be plebeians (Liv. vii.42). Attempts on the part of the patricians to exclude the plebeians, occur as late as the year B.C. 297 (Liv. x.15, Cic. Brut. 14) but they did not succeed, and it remained a principle of the Roman constitution that both consuls should not be patricians (Liv. xxvii.34, Liv. xxxix.42). The candidates usually were divided into two sets, the one desirous to obtain the patrician, and the other to obtain the plebeian place in the consulship (in unum locum petebant, Liv. xxxv.10). But as in the course of time the patricians were thrown into the shade by the rising power of the nobiles, it came to pass that both consuls were plebeians. In B.C. 215, the augurs indeed opposed the election of two plebeians (Liv. xxiii.31); but not long after, in B.C. 172, the fact of both consuls being plebeians actually occurred, and after this it was often repeated, the ancient distinction between patricians and plebeians falling completely into oblivion.

Re:whoa

[dasmegabyte]

Well, the one thing that came out of McCarthyism was the concept of blanket association. It was a very effective tactic for years. If communism is bad, then if you call something communist, it is bad. No further argument needed in most eyes.

Of course, the problem is that the association itself needs to be questioned, and most debaters on the left haven't adapted that skill yet. If you want to see it first hand, watch that sycophant Colmes try and counter one of Sean Hannity's non arguments. Hannity could say "If you consume water, you're aiding the terrorists," and all that pussy will say is "Yes, terrorism is bad."

Really, though, the worst blanket association the right has nowadays is "liberal." I dunno what Limbaugh did to those guys, but the second you say the word "liberal," republican minds freeze up. The problem is, their use of the word liberal is different from its true definition. If you listen to Coulture and others, when they talk about liberalism, they really are talking about communism, they're talking about complacency, they're talking about socialism. And that's a problem...we should have never let them redefine the term for us, because now all progressive politics are inexorably linked.

In fact, I've heard people who believe in welfare, healthcare reform, evironmental protection and corporate regulation talk about those damn liberals. Of course, sleazy doubletalking politicans like Hillary (quick aside: go back to your own damned state, you've done fuck all for New York in four years and I'm embarrassed for the party that those downstate FUCKS couldn't see through your empty promises and scheming ways) and Lieberman aren't doing anything to promote the image...these guys are republicans that have chosen not to hide behind generic religion. They are not great liberal leaders like Roosevelt (take your pick) or Wilson.

As a fun experiment, ask your Republican friends what they think of "liberals" and war. Then remind them that Democratic presidents won us WWI and WWII.

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

>I don't see any of the former USSR countries supporting democracy
>Name one of the former ones that is anywhere near democratic.
Armenia, but as everything is fine there you don't heat about it. You probably did hear about Georgia, and might soon hear hear about Ukraine (where the ruling president accused of dictatorial leanings just agreed not to run for a third term).
Lithuania, Latvia and Estionia. Also while not former USSR countries, the soviet satelites in central europe were part of the eastern bloc.

Re:whoa

[EvilBudMan]

--In an anarchist society, it is possible to be organized (worker and community groups) and peaceful.--

Please show evidence of this in practice? Also, how would defence of this theoretical nation work?

Re:whoa

[Thimma]

West Bengal is a Indian state where there is a commumist party ruling for the past 5 terms (may be more) being democratically elected every time. Isn't India intresting? I think it was the same with Kerala also but I am not sure.

Re:whoa

[Hard_Code]

To nitpick: "totally in favour of abortion"

I think you mean "totally in favour of PERMITTING abortion". I don't think anybody on any side is thinking "Hey, these abortions are great, everybody should get them!". The issue is whether you have the right to have one or not and presumably libertarians would side on individual rights.

Re:whoa

[Abcd1234]

Err, what does that have to do with my point? True Communism has never existed on a large scale on this planet. Thus, claims that it tries to "own and dictate every aspect of a person's life" are silly, since we don't know *what* it would do in practice. Similarly, we can't just go and "talk to some people that actually lived under that system", because no one has ever *lived* under the system! So, I guess my real point is, there's no sense in making claims about the validity, morality, etc, of Communism, since we honestly have no idea *what* it would be like to live in a truly Communist society.

Now, you can complain all you want about the (im)practicality of the Marxist transition to Communism. But that has no bearing on Communism itself.

Re:whoa

[Rotten168]

How "free" is a market when goods that criticize the government cannot be sold?

Re:whoa

[angel'o'sphere]

I always thought the two things were mutually exclusive...I had no idea it was possible. I'm gonna have to look this up online...that's really interesting.

And this attitude, or lack of knowledge is exactly what for my whole time of living bothered me most about the USA ... Mac Carthy and such, you know.

All over the world are democratic elected communistic governments or have been. Some are crushed by direct US government intervention like in Chile.

Some counties are structured in a way that I would call them "comunistic" even when the ruling party calls itself liberal e.g. Japan during the 80s and before.

To make it clear:
Communism is a "ideology" about property, especialy wether property of production facilities should be only held by the public, that means by the state, or if it may be held private. Such facilities and stuff would be real estate, factories, even 'capital'.
Communism as absolutely nothing to do with "elections", "democracy" or lack of that and has also not much to do with free market. As free markets and planned economies are only a further orthogonal idea to "property ideaologies" and "political systems".

As a programmer you probably understand this better:
enum { communism, capitalism } property_ideology;
enum { free_market, regulated_market, planned_economy } economical_system;
enum { feudalism, monarchy, democracy, tyranny(oppression), fachism } political_system;
enum { private_health_care, health_care_laws, free_health_care } social_helth_care_system;
enum { private_pension, pension_funds_laws, free_pension } pension_system;

And so on ...

There might be 4 to 5 more interesting enum types you could imagine ... and if you look carefully: democracy and communism are two "values" af two distinct type sets.

Our day social systems can pick freely from any of the systems to yield a "society".

germany: capitalism, regulated_market, democracy, health_care_laws, pension_funds_laws ...
USA: capitalism, free_market w/ anto trust regulations, democracy, health_care_laws? or better private_health_care?, pension_funds_laws ...

And now you can pick China or Cuba accordingly from above.

BTW: comunist parties still exist in Italy and France and even get elected in communal elections in our days. I believe the german communist party dissolved 10 years ago ... but I'm not sure, probaly it just disapeared from news.

So: if you hate communism, you probably should get a clue what it is ... and then start to hate repressive systems, as most communistic countries have a repressive system ... and that is bad, not communism itself.

Especially: when the US revolution was, the US shifted from a Feudal System to a Democratic System and established Free Markets and Private Property during that.

When the USSR revolution was ... (200 years LATER!!) they shifted from a FAR WORSE feudal system to a dictatorship, a planned market and no privat property of production facilities.

angel'o'sphere

Re:whoa

[angel'o'sphere]

No things didn't go well at all, Allende completly destroyed the Chillian economy. The coup was American backed but Chillians welcomed it, seeing it was the only way to end chaos caused by Allende's economic policies.

This is completely wrong.
USA destroyed Chiles economy. And did as much as they could in whole south america that they never developed a strong economy.
How long do you think Allende ruled? How much chance did he have to "destroy" anything?
The chaos in Chile was alo not caused by Allende, but by the USA. Ever heared how the strikes and riots in Chile where "made"?
The United States Fruit and Food companies owning most of the rural countries, real estate, in Chile payed the workers NOT TO GO TO WORK. They payed the truck drivers NOT TO DRIVE TRUCKS, they payed teh school teachers NOT TO GO TO SCHOOL.
What had you done in those times if you got MORE MONEY, and even in US DOLLARS for NOT WORKING than you got in your regular job?

Well, you must live in a very restrictive country with very limited information freedom not to know the simpel basics of the last 40 years history.

Probably you can not even google up the Salvador Allendes ruling period, to figure how much time he had for possible destruction of an economy :-D

BTW: USA replaced a legaly elected government ... which was socialistic/communistic ... with a fascistic one which caused some 50.000 deathes.

angel'o'sphere

Re:whoa

[Rotten168]

I cannot believe that Pinochet would allow an enterprise to either criticize him or economically challenge those backing his power. He may have employed some capitalist policies, but I just cannot see how a dictatorship could be a capitalist country.

Think about it this way, in a true capitalist system a limitness strata of competition is allowed to challenge any dominant players. A dictatorship usually requires support from the oligarchs of society, the heads of major industry etc. and in a capitalist society those would be continuously challenged, economically.

I haven't read to much into Pinochet's economic system other than the wikipedia system which mentioned that he employed freidman's monetary policies. I'd just question if it was a true free market society, though.

On the other hand I'm speaking in absolutes, even in a democracy there are no perfectly capitalist countries, nor am I arguing that there should be. But in general democracies are more capitalist than dictatorships, and totalitarian "capitalist" countries are almost always more oligarchies in nature.

Re:whoa

[angel'o'sphere]

Except that "anarchy" means "without order". So, no, it isn't possible to be organized in an anarchy, despite what Chomsky has to say.

A simply look in a greek dictionary would show you: WRONG.

An-archy means: no ruler, no government.
Mon-archy means: ONE ruler.
Oly-garchy means: ruled by SOME (a few groups).
Poly-garchgy means: ruled by MANY (many groups).

Of course we use Monarchy in our days slightly different and Olygarchy is most of the time a dictatorship by a clique or chunta. Polygarchy does not realy exist as a parliament would be considered to smal :D

The term has nothing to with order or chaos ... only that there are philosophers who believe that anarchy -> chaos.

angel'o'sphere
P.S. probably if you have a doctor in linguistics you are still not free in lookinig up words :D

Re:whoa

[Goldsmith]

I guess it depends on how far back you want to go, and what you define as communist.

I was referring to specifically, the "utopian" communes which were set up in the midwest US prior to the modern communist movement.

Did that start in France? I could be wrong. I do know I prefer that brand of communism to what came later.

Re:whoa

[overunderunderdone]

Fine, your I'll grant you point that "true" Communism is a fantasy. I agree that arguing the merits of "true" Communism versus western capitalism is like arguing about whether the X-Men (fictional entities like "true communism") would win in a fight against a squad of Navy SEALs (a reality like capitalism). It's a meaningless conflict that only occurs in the imagination of the communist/comic book geek. The person arguing on behalf of the fictional character can always win, since it is a fantasy it can always be redefined in the imagination in such a way that it "wins".

Still the tragedy of "practical" rather than "true" communism is that a bunch of people didn't realize that communism was merely a fantasy. They tried to turn their comic book fantasy world into reality and whenever the fantasy failed to materialize they came to the conclusion that their methods needed to be more brutal . They "progressed" from Marxism, to Marxism/Leninism, to Maoism, to Pol Pot - each new attempt seeing the failure of it's predecessor as being caused not by the fundamental unreality of their goal but in the "half-measures" compromises and a lack of sufficient brutality.

You appear to be arguing that the vicious reality doesn't discredit the fantasy but I disagree. Yes, the fantasy is beautiful, it all works so nicely on paper and in the mind but what has that to do with anything? Fantasy is easy, it ALWAYS works on paper. In the meantime the fantasists have create a very real hell on earth. Those that have escaped from it have every RIGHT to condemn the fantasists and their fantasy as a brutal failure.

Re:whoa

[Mario B]

>No truly communist country has *ever* existed

Bull, they existed and they failed in exactly the manner that their critics predicted (devolving into brutal dictatorship, deadening bureaucracy and eventual economic stagnation). If you are saying no country has ever succeeded in implementing *working and successful* communism I would happily agree with you because such success is, and was, impossible.

What they had in the USSR was "state capitalism" and not real communism. People were receiving wages and had to pay for goods.

Re:whoa

[pete-classic]

Government should not be able to restrict the free exercise of religion. Even in a public school.

Give a fetus a jury trial and I'll reconsider my positions.

-Peter

Re:whoa

[pete-classic]

See the platform page.

I am not aligned with the party in that I favor criminalization of abortion at the state level.

Again, given that I believe that a fetus is a human being with rights, I think that it should be criminal to abort a fetus just as I think it should be criminal to shake an 18 month old to death.

-Peter

Re:whoa

[pyite69]

The problem with the Soviet Union wasn't "communism" per se, it was that their unelected communist dictators wanted to take over the world by force.

Re:whoa

[Photon Ghoul]

That didn't answer my questions, but I'll leave it at that. As usual - dodging.

Re:whoa

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

Germany wasn't considered a republic after Hitler was voted into office - but he made no pretensions towards it, of course, and even changed the name of the country to reflect it.

I don't want to get into this but very little changed in Germany. The institutions that existed before (eg. courts, etc) were the "same" under Hitler. Hitler was an authoratarian and did things (eg. stacked the court in his favour) but overall, very little changed.

THe problem with your view is that YOU are making up the criteria. Propagandists and governments can simply use their own criteria to demonize whoever they want and change definitions as they see fit. Already, governments like USA do that but it will be worse under your scenario. For instance, consider what you said:

Maybe a more practical test is whether the opposition can get into power.

What does that mean? That is to say, how is someone supposed to figure out if opposition can get into power. If one party dominates for a long time, is it all of a sudden a dictatorship of some sort? USA was ruled by one party for long stretches of time (eg. after USA was founded, the US President came from one party, called Democratic-Republican Party (except for one year)). Japan has been ruled by one party since WWII (though they lost in the late 90's or early 2000's I think). What exactly is Japan?

I still think the political name should stay the same as long as the political structure exists. As long as there are courts, elections, and so forth (however bogus), the country should rightly be called a republic (if it is one). These countries aren't democratic but their political structure is the same.

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Re:whoa

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

I'm not in USA (I'm in Canada :) ) so I don't face these things in real life. But whenever I go on message boards, or something, it is always the same. Conservatives always red-bait (i.e. accuse you of being a supporter of Stalin's atrocities), accuse everyone on the left of anti-Americanism (whatever that means), and so forth.

You may not agree but the essence of McCarthyism is still there. This will become more evident with the bogus "war" on terrorism.

As far as Hannity & Colmes are concerned, I don't get Fox up here but from what I know of it (from a left-wing perspective), Colmes isn't much of a leftist. No one on Fox is.

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Re:whoa

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

Good point... but I still don't buy it. I don't think the free markets of capitalism will be as free as you imply. I can only see things being totally free under anarchism. Even under pure capitalism, there will necessarily be restrictions. For instance, will pure capitalism allow someone to sell food that is poisonous? I doubt it. I haven't see any capitalists claim that their system will allow people to deceive consumers and pass off dangerous products.

Censorship (or banning of products that are against "national interest") will be similar I think. The government (however small) or society will simply pass these things off as evil or dangerous and hence they won't be produced. Decisions in Singapore are pretty much made by society. I think that would be consistent with capitalism. I'm not a capitalist so I am not 100% sure. If Singapore isn't capitalist what is it then? It surely isn't socialist or merchantilist or anything I can think of.

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Re:whoa

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

I was thinking more of the actual communist organizations....but even with the communes, it probably started in Europe. I'm not 100% sure but I think Europeans would have tried these things before Americans. Europe was far more progressive at that time.

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Re:whoa

[Rhubarb Crumble]

Hitler was an authoratarian and did things (eg. stacked the court in his favour) but overall, very little changed.

Uh, apart from all opposition parties being banned...

THe problem with your view is that YOU are making up the criteria.

Nonsense. I didn't invent representative democracy. Ideas such as universal suffrage and separation of powers have been around for centuries. I'm not making anything up.

What does that mean? That is to say, how is someone supposed to figure out if opposition can get into power. If one party dominates for a long time, is it all of a sudden a dictatorship of some sort?

It's generally accepted that continuing rule by the same party is bad for any country... But I did say the potential for the opposition to win, not that it needs to happen every 10 years.

USA was ruled by one party for long stretches of time.

Yes, but they had internal factions, disagreements etc., but they were carried out peacefully - people were allowed to disagree, and sometimes the prevailing mood changed. It wasn't the same private club ruling for 100 years.

Japan has been ruled by one party since WWII (though they lost in the late 90's or early 2000's I think).

What I said about prolonged single-party rule being bad. But the opposition COULD have gotten into power - they weren't being tortured in jail, just not enough people voted for them.

As long as there are courts, elections, and so forth (however bogus), the country should rightly be called a republic (if it is one).

Well, we'll just have to disagree here. (Of course in practice, there's no way you can stop a dictator from calling himself whatever he/she likes, so it's a bit of a moot point...)

Re:whoa

[pete-classic]

I think that a reasonable person can at least infer my positions from what I said, but since you are unsatisfied I will gladly directly answer ever direct question you asked. (And quite a bit more at the end, at no extra charge.)

What do you mean exactly?

I mean exactly what I say. No government institution has (or should have) the power to thwart the free exercise of religion. Even, especially on public property.

I'm not maniacal about this. I don't think that students should be allowed to be inordinately disruptive. I don't think they should be allowed to sacrifice chickens in the back of the Science classroom. Banning prayer, however, is clearly a violation of the first amendment.

Again, I am an atheist (note the small "a") so I don't have a pony in the race. OTOH, I can read, and those who interpret the first amendment to offer freedom from religion are self-deluded.

That government-run schools should enforce prayer at schools or that they should not?

I'm not sure what the correct semantics to answer this question are. Any "enforcement" of prayer would amount to the institution of state religion, and therefore would not be permitted under the Constitution.

So I guess; No, yes they should not.

That statement is a little confusing to me. I don't see the banning of school prayer as limiting religious expression.

I couldn't disagree more. How can "banning" something not be "limiting" it? Or do you think that praying doesn't fall under the exercise of religion? I'm baffled by your statement.

School prayer is government *enforcement* of religion and the "moment of silence" is just as bad.

I agree that schools (to include teachers, administrators, etc.) should be banned from ANY "enforcement" of prayer.

I don't see what is bad about a moment of silence. Does silent reflection require a belief in any Gods?

I must also say that the degree of emotional weakness required for a person to be "hurt" by standing in a football stadium where (nearly) everyone else is praying to a god he doesn't believe in is quite beyond my ability to comprehend.

I respect your stance on abortion - but does your respect for human life also extend to capital punishment, the collateral damage incurred in the bombing of Iraq or the starving homeless that line U.S. streets and intersetions? Just curious, because I've found that most anti-abortionists/pro-lifers to make excuses to justify the other ills that are results of disrespect for human life.

I have the utmost respect for human life. That does not mean that I do not believe that a person's life can never be forfeit. I do support capital punishment. I do, in certain cases, support war, in spite of the fact that there is inevitable loss of life, even innocent life. (See this essay for my opinions on the current war.)

I think that anyone who wantonly and actively caused homeless starvation through direct action should be just as culpable as anyone who causes the abortion of a fetus through direct action.

To back away a bit, things have causes. Sometimes those causes are direct and sometimes the are indirect. Some causes are due to action, some to inaction. Some actions are justified, some are not.

Unjustified actions that lead to death are generally considered to be murder.

Unjustified inactions that lead to death are generally held to be manslaughter.

Justified actions that lead to death are tragic.

Justified inactions that lead to death are unfortunate.

It is my opinion that shooting people at a gas station with an AR-15 bushmaster and aborting a fetus fall in the first category.

It is my opinion that bombing the hell out of Berlin fell under the third.

It is my opinion that starving homeless fall under the fourth.

You are, of course, welcome to hold the opinion that any of the above makes me a loon :-)

-Peter

Re:whoa

[Photon Ghoul]

Ok, let's get some things straight here first. What do you mean by school prayer? My understanding of the term is a moment taken out of the day to spend time praying, this time is overtly endorsed by the school who is, by extension, a governmental authority. The "freedom of religion" is specifically about government endorsement of religion. Yes, from the larger picture, the U.S. government doesn't blatently endorse any one religion. When you drill down to the local level, however, there is endorsement of religion and it is almost always some form of Christianity in public schools. This is freedom of religion? You pretty much say that the state should not create an institution of religion, but isn't this what we are talking about? You seem to be for the creation of state religion through enforced prayer time. That is what I mean when I say "banning" of school prayer - the banning of government endorsed authority from instituting any religious dogmas, social pressures, etc. This is *not* the same as banning expression of religion. A christian (oops little "c") has every right to wave a flag of Jesus on the cross as long as I also have the right to wave a flag of Jesus getting pissed on. I could care less if my sectarian peers want to use their *own* time, not my time or the taxpayer's time, to pray to Allah, Jehovah, Jesus or aliens. That's thier freedom and I actually encourage those that need religion to pursue it.

I'm sorry that you feel that "freedom of religion" doesn't include the freedom of non-practice. The "freedom from religion" argument is one that the religious right frequently makes. That makes me question whether or not you are truly an athiest (little "a", big "A" doesn't matter). No problem, but who is truly deluded here?

The "moment of silence" is simply a politically correct rewording of "school prayer". It's a smokescreen and no one is fooled by it. I do think it's a step in the right direction in that it acknowledges that not everyone follows the same belief system. What you call emotional weakness I call societal pressure. If you don't understand pressures put on to those who are in a minority view when it comes to religious beliefs, then you have obviously never been on the recieving end. I am even apalled at christians when they seem to forget that there have been times in history when their own sect was persecuted.

Human life is human life. The state's only right to take human life is the fact that it can enforce that right through violent means. War is violence and modern justifications of it are typically backed by a series of twisted lies. This didn't just start with the recent takeover of Iraq.

The homeless aren't here from direct action. It's the indirect action that causes it. Homelessness is a side-effect of current economic systems and will never go away as long as we are only concerned with our mortgage, car payment, little Johnny's college and a Big Mac.

I don't think you are loon. This is just friendly discussion, isn't it?

Re:whoa

[pete-classic]

What do you mean by school prayer?

That is a bit of a problem . . . and we seem to be closer in views than I thought.

A teacher saying "It is time to pray to Jesus now." is not okay.

OTOH I was in . . . I think the fourth grade when the Challenger accident happened. The teacher called for a "moment of silence." That is okay.

If a kid wants to cross himself and pray over his lunch that is fine.

If a kid wants to lead his football team in a prayer to Jesus, that's fine.

If a teacher wants to set aside five minutes of "quite time" a day that is fine. If the teacher encourages the students to use that time to practice their own faith, that is fine. If the teacher says the students should pray, that is pretty shaky.

Once again, I don't believe in any Gods . . . so I certainly do believe that freedom of religion includes freedom of non-religion. I don't, however, believe that there is a "freedom" of not being exposed to other peoples religion.

And is seems that we aren't that far apart on that either.

The problem with pacifism is that it hands the keys to the kingdom to those who aren't pacifists. I don't pretend to have all the answers, but living as a slave with a clear conscience does not appeal to me.

This is just friendly discussion, isn't it?

Hence the :-)

-Peter

Re:whoa

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

Nonsense. I didn't invent representative democracy. Ideas such as universal suffrage and separation of powers have been around for centuries. I'm not making anything up.

Yes but I'm talking about cases where those institutions exist but are corrupted. I am not talking about totalitarians (eg. USSR) calling themselves republic; I'm talking about a corrupted republic calling themselves republic. The latter should be called a republic. A country that has courts, different branches of government, senate, etc should be called a republic (or whatever is appropriate) EVEN if they are corrupted. I think the naming should only be discarded if those institutions were abolished.

What I said about prolonged single-party rule being bad. But the opposition COULD have gotten into power - they weren't being tortured in jail, just not enough people voted for them.

See... that's the problem. You are saying a party COULD get into power. That's YOUR observation. How is one supposed to know? What exactly does "could" mean? If you met a neutral person, you would have a hard time explaining how a country where one party dominates (say USA) is a republic while another country with a similar situation but with corruption, isn't a republic.

Your argument is similar to arguing that Bolivia, for example, is not a democracy (because it is highly corrupt), while Mexico is. Both of these should be called "democracies" or democracy-like. Same thing with republics or any other political system.

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Re:whoa

[Rhubarb Crumble]

I am not talking about totalitarians (eg. USSR) calling themselves republic; I'm talking about a corrupted republic calling themselves republic.

Maybe we're not really disagreeing with each other. Where do you determined where totalitarianism stops and "merely corrupted" begins? North Korea is totalitarian and Zimbabwe is not? What about Haiti? Then it comes back down to drawing an (arbitrary) distinction - which is what you're accusing me of doing.

What exactly does "could" mean?

Just that. Politics is about power, and power is about potential. What you "could" do if you were in power, and get away with it (stay in power). For example, even though the UK (where I live) is not technically a democracy, with all executive power being exercised in the name of the monarch, it is generally held that QE2 "could" never actually dissolve parliament and take over power herself, even though it is theoretically in her power. (Not that I'm happy with that situation myself, I think the monarchy should be gotten rid of.)

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

USA destroyed Chiles economy. And did as much as they could in whole south america that they never developed a strong economy.

No way. As much as one can admire the idealistic goals that guided the Allende administration, the economic plans (i.e rearrangement of productive property mostly in hands of the state) where catastrophic.

The United States Fruit and Food companies owning most of the rural countries, real estate, in Chile payed the workers NOT TO GO TO WORK. They payed the truck drivers NOT TO DRIVE TRUCKS, they payed teh school teachers NOT TO GO TO SCHOOL.

You must be confusing Chile with Ecuador. No mayor real estate has ever been in US hands here, except perhaps the ecological resever that Douglas Tompkins (Patagonia) owns in the southern part of the country. As a matter of fact. Chile's agriculture became a significant foreign currency earner in the mid to late 80's.

The CIA certainly influenced the military coup, but it would be very distorting to blame everything on the US.

Regards from Santiago
Roberto de Iriarte

Re:whoa

[kulalosai]

Yep... In the states Kerala and West Bengal in India, communist party has been in power on and off.

Re:whoa

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

Maybe we're not really disagreeing with each other.

We are not really disagreeing much. All our disagreement is over a fuzzy line. I suppose EVERYTHING is subjective in some sense.

North Korea is totalitarian and Zimbabwe is not? What about Haiti?

North Korea doesn't even have independent courts, or anything independent. Since countries like Zimbabwe and Haiti do, I would not classify them as totalitarian. Although, at the rate that Zimbabwe is going, it will be one very soon.

For example, even though the UK (where I live) is not technically a democracy, with all executive power being exercised in the name of the monarch, it is generally held that QE2 "could" never actually dissolve parliament and take over power herself, even though it is theoretically in her power. (Not that I'm happy with that situation myself, I think the monarchy should be gotten rid of.)

I HATE monarchy. It is a horrible system. Although countries like Britain aren't exactly "true" monarchies. I come from Canada and it's the same issue. I wish Canada would dump the monarchy. I hope you guys don't get mad if we DO dump the monarchy at some point--nothing against the British but the Queen/King has got to go. My problem with monarchy isn't so much about corruption or power, but rather the fact that it is elitist! The monarch and her/his family gets priviledges that a typical citizen doesn't. I am an inferior to a monarch, just like you are. Your children are inferior to the monarch's children. For example, when your Queen comes over to Canada, we spend millions on her. Her family stays in nice mansions, get VIP status, etc. That is just plain wrong! It's just too bad people support it :( Having said that, the British monarchy will dissapear soon IMO. With all the scandals and stuff, I'm surprised the British haven't dumped them yet. All I know is that when Charles becomes the head, that might be the end. ;)

As far as whether the monarchy really has power, I think they do. Right now, they have very little. However, if someone goes wrong (say Britain declines and becomes a corrupt state), the monarch will seize power. This is pretty much the trend (one can look through history or even some modern countries like Nepal). Monarchs who were weak at one time, all of a sudden start ruling with an iron fist when the opportunity comes.

Sivaram Velauthapillai A

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm in Western Canada:

Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -5.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.74

Interesting....

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

Now can someone please explain to me why a company interested solely in profit would pay its workers NOT to work??? That's just ridiculous. I've never heard of anyone doing that. And besides, if workers are not working, and the company is not producing stuff and the company is not selling stuff, where is it getting the money to pay these workers more than their everyday wages? From the CIA? Hell dude, if someone were to pay me more than my salary not to work, I'd take that offer anytime, even if that someone were the CIA.

Re:whoa

[roycecil]

This happened in the early sixties in the tiny state of kerala. Kerala was opressed by a heavy feudal system and poverty was widespread. It was then that communists came to power through a democratic election.
they destroyed feudal system, brought equality to the lives of people . It was a big necessaty in those days.

Re:whoa

[Darken_Everseek]

Just to chime in here for Canada, we're a Constitutional Monarchy; the Queen is still the titular head of state. In actual matters of governance, however, we elect our congressional representatives directly, and the leader of the dominant party (which doesn't necessarily require a majority of the seats in congress) is the Prime Minister. IIRC, there is no requirement that the Prime Minister him/herself have a seat in congress, usually though, if the Prime Minister isn't elected to a riding, one of the backbenchers will resign, and the Prime Minister will run in a by-election.

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

Another western canadian here (Alberta), sitting at -5.25, and -3.79. Cheers!

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

Nepal had a Maoist party in government elected under a constitutional monarchy for awhile.
the whole point of communism is "true democracy"anyway

Re:whoa

[Valar]

Actually, there are a lot of definitions of republic, not all of which agree on what, exactly, it take to be a republic.

Re:whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

Umm that's just in one state of 26 (West Bengal); not the central government, you do understand..?

Shikhar

Even Interviews

[lake2112]

Now our interviews are being outsourced ....

Re:Even Interviews

[RobPiano]

I don't care outsourced about the outsourced part, but I do care about the quality.

Reading this slashdot interview was one of the few I read word for word down to the very end. Slashdot rarely provides content at this level. I personally would be thrilled to see actual slashdot articles and editorials written as well as this one. Perhaps I'll try writing one myself in the not to decent future, but I would really love to see some actual original slashdot content being common.

Re:Even Interviews

[elmegil]

Hell if more of it were like this "interview", it might be worth subscribing!

Re:Even Interviews

[leviramsey]

If Slashdot could offer an article of this level of insight and so forth, I'd reckon that they'd double their subscriptions.

Re:Even Interviews

[leviramsey]

Must proofread...

Insert "daily" after "so forth".

Re:Even Interviews

[Drantin]

not to decent future
er.. distant?

Or will you be writing your article in the nude?

Re:Even Interviews

[sbrown123]

Even more interesting is that this fellow went to India to ask questions. I could easily go ask the H1B in the cube next door the same questions if I wanted.

Re:Even Interviews

[Tsu-na-mi]

...in the not to decent future...

Perhaps you'll learn the proper use of 'too' and 'to' in the not too distant future as well.

/grammar and spelling nazi

Re:Even Interviews

[Anonymous Coward]

I would really love to see some actual original slashdot content being common.

It used to be fairly common. J. Katz was { the only | one of the few } 'editors' to routinely write original content. There was a large following of his which seemed to only come out for his articles in order to flame them.

Granted, his incendiary ramblings are quite different than well written articles as this. Perhaps you should check out news forge more often if you enjoyed this?

Re:Even Interviews

[Opie812]

...Perhaps I'll try writing one myself in the not to decent future...

Are you saying that the future is going to be decent? Or are you saying it's not going to be decent? I can't figure that one out.

Re:Even Interviews

[Anonymous Coward]

...I'd reckon that they'd double their subscriptions

That could /. /. !

Re:Even Interviews

[scruffy]

Me, too!

I agree this is one of the best interviews Slashdot has done. I will be hard put to hate all this evil outsourcing now.

Re:Even Interviews

[Anonymous Coward]

I often disagreed with his articles but at least they were original. Perhaps we should start a campaign to make him JonKatz return to slashdot.

Re:Even Interviews

[Suhas]

I would love to see Rob get more involved and do this type of stuff....brings back memories of the old days when this was News for Nerds, Stuf that "MATTERS"

My question is....

[Creepy Crawler]

Why dont we see more Eastern (China, Japan, India....) Open Source software projects when they're soo good at computers?

Do they not like the idea of free knowledge exchange?

(Asked seriously, not as flamebait...)

Re:My question is....

[bobthemuse]

Why dont we see more Eastern (China, Japan, India....) Open Source software projects when they're soo good at computers? Do they not like the idea of free knowledge exchange?

If the US was as competitive as India is, do you think open source would be where it is today?

Re:My question is....

[nick-less]

hy dont we see more Eastern (China, Japan, India....) Open Source software projects when they're soo good at computers?

because they aren't better, just cheaper. Well most of the time, in fact I've seen several outsourced projects coming back from india, because of technical incompetence down there, but I don't want to generalize this.

Re:My question is....

[Creepy Crawler]

"If the US was as competitive as India is, do you think open source would be where it is today?"

Yes, because they're always Idealists. Stallman comes to mind, as he made the first powerful editor available over a TTY, and gave away a multi-platform C(++) compiler.

I can make guesses of what might happen, but that's all they are. I'm asking a question for present day.

Re:My question is....

[Rhubarb Crumble]

Why dont we see more Eastern (China, Japan, India....) Open Source software projects when they're soo good at computers?

Maybe they spend a lot of time working on localisation, the results of which the "english-speaking world" never hears about?

Re:My question is....

[psycho_tinman]

Because for the most part, hardware was expensive until a few years back, and so was the cost of accessing the internet. I can only speak for South Asia, though.. because I have quite a few friends and acquaintances there. My flatmate is from China, and from what I hear, it's much the same there as well.

In most cases, computers were prohibitively expensive (until recently, when Taiwanese manufacturers and the whole clone market got off the ground) and few could afford to have much time at computers, let alone own one. If a machine is not yours, and if you can only tinker with it on and off (and you're worried about breaking it and being denied access), and if you don't even have a good internet connection, your contribution to open source software is going to be slightly lacking.

But things are changing now, so I'd expect to see more projects soon. There is a learning curve associated with joining existing projects too.

Re:My question is....

[Anonymous Coward]

Most call center reps refuse to deviate from their scripts, period. I had a fellow pulling that with a Georgia accent yesterday; I doubt he was Indian. from what I've seen as an outsider interacting with Indians in the US, Indian culture is not "directed," it's actually pretty damned turbulent/competitive, as much as US culture.

Re:My question is....

[deadmongrel]

Indians do the like the idea of free knowledge exchange. One of the oldest universities in the world was NALANDHA University in India. Inportance was given to education and is still the same. Most of the older universities did not charge you to get your education. sadly its not the situation now. The population has grown and how ever good you might be at computers you need money to survive. In a land where there are 1 billon(and counting) people finding jobs is difficult. The social structure is also different. Many of us do support our parents after graduation. so money would be in short supply. One other subtle reason would be a lot of people find jobs in microsoft related work. so not much knowledge about opensource and its benefits.

Re:My question is....

[vivekm]

As an Indian undergrad student who believes that salvation of comp sci. lies only in free/open software, my answer to that question will be that, in India the majority of the population is poor, at least as compared to international standards. We are as good programmers as those in any part of the world but the major difference lies in the kind of resources that we have and the lack of financial support to undertake open source projects. Most of us would rather grab the job that comes first in our sight and work on it, rather than wait for the ones most of us dream of.

As for the `idea of free knowledge exchange', ofcourse it is widely supported by most Indian programmers, atleast those who haven't entered the `Gates' of hell. Sarovar is one of India's contributions to the FLOSS world. A sourceforge.net clone that provides hosting for Free/Open Source Software projects.

Re:My question is....

[sskang]

The main reason is poor discretionary net access. Its is incredibly hard to be, say, a KDE developer when you have very unreliable, expensive and slow dialup net access. Most FLOSS developers start with fast connections from the universities, and then supplement their home net connections (fast or slow, whatever) with their net access at work.

When you don't have fast net access even at university (let alone the ability to host huge, high-bandwidth CVS servers like KDE did for a long time), it becomes really hard to even access free software and updates, let alone become an always-on developer.

Don't underestimate the Internet as the collaborative device that allows free software to happen. As net access becomes better here, you'll see more Indian FLOSS developers.

Re:My question is....

[GerritHoll]

Ruby seems to be a very good programming language (somewhere between Python and Perl) - unfortunately, the developer mailing list is only in Japanese, as is a lot of documentation.

Re:My question is....

[Telastyn]

I've seen a bit of NetBSD code submitted by Japanese programmer(s).

Though more likely is the fact that their 'itch' is likely internationalization/localization issues which we [dumb Westerners] don't care about.

Re:My question is....

[FreshFunk510]

First of all this question reeks of racism. "They're" so good at computers? Much like asians are good at math, black people are good at sports and all Irish people like fighting?

Anyway, if asked seriously, in China the idea of "free knowledge exchange" is not exactly a popular one as it is regularly looked down-upon by the government (and is even used as a reason to prosecute people).

In India, I imagine it isn't as popular as you would think it to be because the average person does not own a computer. If you looked at the number of computers per person in America versus India, I bet it would portray a picture where India is very behind, on a broad level, in terms of technical advancement. What's the point of free knowledge exchange if you don't even have a computer (let alone an internet connection)?

Japan. Who knows? They have a history of consumer electronics and seem to be continually working to fill that niche. More recently, they seem to be filling in the mobile technology area.

Re:My question is....

[maxbang]

... when they're soo good at computers?

Are you kidding that this isn't flamebait? Did you not read the part about code-monkeys? I guess this is Slashdot, so I shouldn't expect so much. The percentage of people over there who are "soo good at computers" is equal to the percentage over here who are "soo good at computers." If you're going to stereotype, at least use a funny one, like Apu.

Re:My question is....

[Anonymous Coward]

>>hy dont we see more Eastern (China, Japan, India....) Open Source software projects when they're soo good at computers?
>because they aren't better, just cheaper.
Or maybe they have to spend much more time at work just to be prove their not worst then their american counterparts?

Re:My question is....

[andy1307]

Most Indians, even those in engineering schools, don't have unmilited access to computers. Most people who start in open source do so because they have access to a computer and take up open source as a hobby. Indian students don't have that luxury yet. However, computer penetration is increasing and you should expect to see more contributions to open source from Indians and Chinese. Remember: Individual users in India and China don't really pay for software and most people aren't hooked onto Microsoft products. These markets are ripe for open source. Sun even sold a 10k license for it's office alternative to an Indian insurance company.

In short: give it time..just 10 years ago(1994) most people in India had never worked on computer.

Re:My question is....

[Anonymous Coward]

Apu, btw, has a PhD in CS.

Re:My question is....

[ajayvb]

India has over 20 languages in widespread use, and just localizing Linux to these is a mammoth task.

A couple of projects which are worth mentioning:

Indlinux

and the Simputer

The basic limitation that I've seen is that most of us Indians are a bit more inward-looking, which means that a lot of open-source work in India looks to solve local problems.

Re:My question is....

[Anonymous Coward]

ooh you said something bad about culture that didn't belong to a white man. You get hit with the liberal slashdot mod bat.

Re:My question is....

[Anonymous Coward]

Because earning little money is better than earning none?

Re:My question is....

[Anonymous Coward]

okay, till a few years back, hardware was quite expensive. so was net connection.

once these two improve, expect to se a LOT of opensource.

Plus, Indians are building up their exertise, so for now they work for money.

Plus family is a big part of Indian life, meaning eventually ppl wil get married, and will devoute more time to families.

Anyway - note that one of the betr C++ IDEs for Unix is from India (Anjuta)

Re:My question is....

[andy1307]

There is nothing racist about the comment. It's a cultural thing, not a racial thing. Asians born in the US tend to do well because their parents expect them to perform to their potential and failure to do so has consequences. Most blacks have athletes for role models.

Re:My question is....

[Anonymous Coward]

Even I don't think you are trolling, so just to start you off in your quest:

1. China - Wensong Zhang, LVS Project
2. Japan - Kunihiro Ishiguro, Zebra Project
3. India - Naba Kumar, Anjuta Project

Re:My question is....

[Anonymous Coward]

This may be true for India but not for China, judging from the massive amounts of spam and the number of dubious ISPs...

Re:My question is....

[Creepy Crawler]

>>>First of all this question reeks of racism. "They're" so good at computers? Much like asians are good at math, black people are good at sports and all Irish people like fighting?

Yeah... They're applies to all Indians just as much "computer geek" applies to all Americans. Talk about a jackass. What's the story about?? Hmmm. Computer job Outsourcing....

>>>Anyway, if asked seriously,

No, I was hoping to cash my modpoints in for that new car.

>>>in China the idea of "free knowledge exchange" is not exactly a popular one as it is regularly looked down-upon by the government (and is even used as a reason to prosecute people).

Yeah, and there's that fact that China was taken over in the 50's by help of the Soviets. I bet they'd help more if they wern't soo oppressed.

>>>In India, I imagine it isn't as popular as you would think it to be because the average person does not own a computer. If you looked at the number of computers per person in America versus India, I bet it would portray a picture where India is very behind, on a broad level, in terms of technical advancement. What's the point of free knowledge exchange if you don't even have a computer (let alone an internet connection)?

Who usually has (access to) computers first?? Oh wait, its the geeks! Then answer me why there isnt at least 1 high profile project that's ran by an Indian developer?

>>>Japan. Who knows? They have a history of consumer electronics and seem to be continually working to fill that niche. More recently, they seem to be filling in the mobile technology area.

I can also recall that there's some reallyu cool software for P2P only found in Japanese. The guy wont release source due to people using it out of Japan (wtf? as it's anon coder and no money is made on it)

Re:My question is....

[FreshFunk510]

"It isn't racism if it's the truth. I'd hate to break that to you, but statistics don't lie. Asian males are better at math than any other race. How do I know this? I know someone who works for the SAT's as a statistician. Asian males score way higher than any other ethnic group on the math sections.

It may not tickle your liberal feathers, but people are different. "

First of all, I don't see how this issue is a liberal or conservative one. On that note, I'll just consider you trolling.

Secondly, the problem with this sort of statement is that it reeks of racial stereotyping. While statistically asians may perform better on the SAT math portion, one has to ask what this really means? Does it mean "asian are better at math" or "asian-americans have catered their studying to fit the SAT math style"?

For instance, let's look at the famous mathemeticians in the past several hundred years. They're all European. How many were asian? Let's look back into further history. Many ground-breaking mathemetical concepts were discovered/created by arabs and middle-eastern people. Yes, asians did play some history but I think I illustrated the point that, no, asians do not have some sort of "genetic disposition" that the comment "asians are better at math" seems to imply.

I could get into it further but really it's a question of nature vs nurture (which you seemed to imply).

Re:My question is....

[FreshFunk510]

Talk about a jackass.

Me? Here's an experiment for you. Go to the south and ask them why they all like shotguns, drink beer, and have furniture on their lawns. Then go to the poor parts of Asia and ask them why they are so good at math. Then, go to Ethiopia or Uganda and ask them why they are so good at sports.

Perhaps I'm nitpicking here but when one asks the question "why is ____ race so good at ____" it really gets me. Maybe if you worded it differently like "If India has such strong technical expertise how come they haven't produced more open source projects?" then it would, to me, imply that it's moe about acquired skill than some sort of racial advantage.

(So maybe that's what you implied and, if so, I apologize.) But, like I said, it smelled of racism but I never called it outright racism.

Who usually has (access to) computers first?? Oh wait, its the geeks! Then answer me why there isnt at least 1 high profile project that's ran by an Indian develope

1) Open your eyes. Have you tried looking for open source project there?

2) My guess would be that they haven't found open source to be a viable (financial) solution. Their expertise is still burgeoning while ours maintains some maturity to it. Most people there are just tryign to make a living instead of innovating. Look at the quality of life there compared to here and it'll answer your questions on why they arent' contributing time to projects that always have questionable business success at best.

Re:My question is....

[Anonymous Coward]

Dead white guys 0wn!

Re:My question is....

[1HandClapping]

Isn't the joint China, Korea, Japan Linux project big enough for you?

Re:My question is....

[Anonymous Coward]

Look at Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. If you translate it into software developer needs you'll realize that they (China, India, Russia, Eastern Europe) are near the bottom of it. And US and EU are higher up. So when they get higher in the hierarchy we will see much more open source from them.

Re:My question is....

[Anonymous Coward]

Two things...

a.) If they are worrying about surviving, they probably spend less time on playing with the computer in their spare time, and more time actually working.

b.) Japan, being richer than the US (in general), actually contributes a lot of open-source projects and work. Look at most of the IPv6 code. Look at who is atcually doing something with the Cobalt source sun released, etc.

Re:My question is....

[Dinglenuts]

Hey, motherfucker, leave the Irish out of this or I'll beat your ass.

Re:My question is....

[be-fan]

Then answer me why there isnt at least 1 high profile project that's ran by an Indian developer?

Um, Anjuta?

Re:My question is....

[FreshFunk510]

:) Let me guess: You attend Notre Dame (Our Lady)??

Re:My question is....

[Dave2 Wickham]

Asians are not Hindus

Asia's a continent, Hinduism is a religion. One of the main areas of Hinduism is India. India is in South Asia. Therefore a vast number of Asians are Hindus...

Re:My question is....

[christophersaul]

Wasn't Sun co-started by an Indian?

Re:My question is....

[Dinglenuts]

No, just the bloodlines.

Re:My question is....

[dsplat]

Though more likely is the fact that their 'itch' is likely internationalization/localization issues which we [dumb Westerners] don't care about.

There are plenty of i18n/l10n projects out there. Gnome, KDE, Mandrake, OpenOffice and Mozilla all have active projects going. The FSF has the Translation Project. Get out there and localize!

Re:My question is....

[stephanruby]

Japan also came out with the Ruby language. Not to mention, they have lots of free Manga fanart and lots of free porn.

Re:My question is....

[Anonymous Coward]

The Japanese are too busy building monstrous robots that will take over the rest of the world. Mwuhahahahaha!

Re:My question is....

[Anonymous Coward]

First of all this question reeks of racism. "They're" so good at computers? Much like asians are good at math, black people are good at sports and all Irish people like fighting?

Because asians couldn't possibly be good at math:

http://edworkforce.house.gov/issues/107th/educat io n/nclb/hr1chart1.pdf

Black people are no good at sports:

http://www.blackathlete.com/main.shtml

And Irish people fighting? Naww:

http://www.irish-boxing.com/

Well.. As I sit here with my frozen computer, and try and chip the beer mug away from my hand, I realize, I AM CANADIAN!!!

Re:My question is....

[FreshFunk510]

Repeat after me:

Ignorance is Strength.

Re:My question is....

[stephanruby]

First of all this question reeks of racism. "They're" so good at computers? Much like asians are good at math, black people are good at sports and all Irish people like fighting?

Hey, I didn't write the parent post, but I thought I would chime in anyway.

The original poster didn't talk about race. You did.

The original poster was talking about different *nationalities*. Different nations have different educational systems and they are at different level of economic development. One would think that we could draw conclusions about programmers based on the nations they inhabit *without* talking about race.

Re:My question is....

[dancingmad]

As for Japan, they have plenty of software/tech projects/etc. You never hear about them because they tend remain in Japanese.

If you check out the Mac scene, especially for little applets or GUI stuff, there are plenty of Japanese people there (indeed, Japanese tend to gravitate towards design - I joke that every Japanese I've ever met is an artist, even on the hobby level - which isn't far from the truth; I think it has to do with the importance of kanji and calligraphy). One of the big OSX dock simulators for Windows, for example was made by a Japanese guy (who later was threatend by Apple). He didn't do any translation himself - and that's why you don't often see Japanese software.

Let's not forget console programming and PC games, like dating sims, which of course, the Japanese have completely owned since the Nintendo and until the Xbox .

Re:My question is....

[Valluvan]

as mentioned many times in the interviews, most of the people (including those in IT) in India (and other developing countries) work to earn a living. OpenSource projects will flourish when the developers would not have to worry about their next meal. I am exaggerating, but you get the point.

As for Japan, the answer is LANGUAGE.

The 'they' in your question like free knowledge exchange, by the way. So would a sensible person of any culture. It all boils down to affordability. There is surely no lack of willingness.

Re:My question is....

[FreshFunk510]

I'll accept that. And, if that's the case, I apologize. I guess there's been too much precedent of racial stereotyping that made me react.

Re:My question is....

[foobar77]

I set up a software development center for our company in India (Bangalore) in 1993-94. Before choosing India, I considered China (Shenzen)/Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaysia, Phillipines, Russia, etc. I visited India, Singapore and Shenzen to meet local business and goverment officials. In the end, I chose India. In the end, there was no contest for three reasons -

I found many talented software developers with real world product experience. China and Russia has very smart programmers, but with no clue what a product is about.

They all spoke English in India. We could work directly with the engineers rather than through interpreters. (India is the 2nd largest English speaking country in the world, after the US.)

The country has a tradition of democracy and (relative and improving) free enterprise. The government bureaucrats want to help rather than cream off a share. (This wasn't true before the early 1990s).

It will take these other countries some years to duplicate these fundamental factors. I don't think there is a near-term threat to India's strengths in software development.

Re:My question is....

[Oriumpor]

Well, since the genome isn't entirelly mapped out and studied properly, regardless of either one of the points given while arguing over this politically sensitive subject, there is no way to prove or disprove that it isn't a genetic disposition that causes this. Not that I'd be so silly to assume such a thing, but you never know... the modern abacus was perfected in China.

Now enough of that, the cultural "prejudice, bias etc etc." you are implyng by stating a stastical truth is ridiculous. If you have a theory as to why there is more or a predisposition to math in the Asian migrant/decendent families please share it. Perhaps it is because their education system and history of mathematics has had much longer, and is much more important in their cultural beliefs than it is to those without a thousand+ year old cultural history? (Speculation flame me whatever.)

Or maybe they haven't seen (and been affected by) "Dazed and Confused" "Ferris Bueler" "The Breakfast Club" or any other number of 70s-90s movies that demonstrate the students absolute rejection of Americian Public Education, yet.

Who knows, honestly I can tell you the abnormally high scores sure aren't the product of the education establishment who teaches to the LCD.

Re:My question is....

[jdgeorge]

Go to the south and ask them why they all like shotguns, drink beer, and have furniture on their lawns.

Are you implying this is a negative or inaccurate stereotype? There are darn few people in my area who don't fit this description.

In my experience, I have found people in the South not only willing, but eager to answer these questions. Furthermore, if you're not a jackass, you may find yourself shooting shotguns along side them, while you sit and drink beer on the furniture on their lawns.

Re:My question is....

[Cruciform]

Darn, if you'd have said "kung fu" you're ass you could have nailed 3 stereotypes for extra +1 Funny :P

Re:My question is....

[Cruciform]

Vast numbers are also buddhist, christian, etc. etc. etc.

Re:My question is....

[Cruciform]

and i should have spellchecked "you're".
Sorry, grammar nazis :)

Re:My question is....

[Anonymous Coward]

Much like asians are good at math, black people are good at sports and all Irish people like fighting?

The bad thing about stereotypes is that they are very broad brushes and tend to be wielded in ways that ignore individual differences. That's bad, and it obscures individual abilities and often limits peoples' opportunities.

However, it's also important to realize that stereotypes exist because because they're *useful* simplifications of a complex world. The human mind is very adept at noticing patterns and defining categories in an effort to make it easier to think about the world, and racial, ethnic and national stereotypes are the manifestation of this capability when applied to groups of people.

So why do we get these particular stereotypes? Because, by and large, they're *true*. Blacks do tend, on average, to be better athletes than people of other races. Asians do tend to do better in mathematics, at least as reported by standardized tests. I don't know about the Irish stereotype, but I'm sure there's some truth to it as well, even if the individual Irishmen I've worked with were pretty coolheaded.

When you're looking at large groups, the stereotypes do hold and they are useful in understanding the relative capabilities of bunches of people such as, say, evaluating the ability of a nation to provide a large IT workforce. The fallacies of stereotyping come about when you either try to apply them to individuals or when you make unsupportable assumptions about the reasons behind the differences.

Re:My question is....

[DrCode]

My feeling (as an American): Writing open-source software is a luxury, something you're willing to do when you're prosperous.

I love writing OSS, and have done so for years. But when unemployed a couple years ago, it just didn't feel right, as it seemed like my time should be spent either looking for a job or working on a proprietary project that might earn some money. Now that I'm well paid again, I'm happily back to working on free software.

Re:My question is....

[Creepy Crawler]

>>>Hey, I didn't write the parent post, but I thought I would chime in anyway.

I did write it, and I still stand by it. I was thinking about all the American, Canadian, Mexican, and all of Europe's software developers and what they write for the masses. Even what could be consideed 3'rd world (Hungary) has a high profile developers who make MPlayer.

I wrote that with this in mind... I did fail to think about Anjuta (India). The Zebra project I always associated to that with "FSF". My mistake ;-|

>>>The original poster didn't talk about race. You did.

>>>The original poster was talking about different *nationalities*. Different nations have different educational systems and they are at different level of economic development. One would think that we could draw conclusions about programmers based on the nations they inhabit *without* talking about race.

I was concluding why we dont see a porportanate amount of GPL-like software out of those countries when we KNOW there's some smart cookies (whoops, more idiots might think I'm insulting yet another racial group) over there.

I just LOVE that everyone is hunting for words to make somebody look like a RACIST.

Re:My question is....

[Anonymous Coward]

As a Japanese native who works at a U.S. software company,
perhaps I can shed some insights into this question.

> Why dont we see more Eastern (China, Japan, India....) Open Source software projects

There is a very strong Japanese OSS scene. You don't see them in the
West because they tend to address language-specific issues. You would
not hear about mule and skk unless you need to write east Asian
languages in emacs..

Also, there are OSS projects from Japan that are of interest outside
of Asia; Ruby, the scripting language; Kame, the ipv6 project to name
a few.

Here is another sign of OSS popularity. On my last visit to Japan, I
counted no less then _four_ fancy FreeBSD monthly magazines. And how
many of these do we have in the os' native country?

> when they're soo good at computers?

Note that Corporate Japan does not produce a lot of exportable
software with the exception of Game industry. There is something very
incompatible with software creation in Japanese corporate
culture. Note that what they are "soo good" at is hardware, where they
can leverage the strengths in their efficient production.

I believe that this programmer-unfriendly corporate culture
actually fuels Japanese open source scene.

> Do they not like the idea of free knowledge exchange?

I don't think this is the case at all. On the contrary, the countries
you mentioned are less beholden to the North American and European
notion of "IP" and are more open to the concept of OSS.

In fact, the Japanese PHBs are far less likely to have the
fear and reaction often exhibited by their US counterparts
(cannot make money with something that's free, communist, etc..)
when presented with Linux opportunities.

So, OSS projects are out there in the far east; you just have to
start seeing them.

Re:My question is....

[FreshFunk510]

Agreed.

I guess I would've been more comfortable with the statement had it been made in a bit more politically correct manner.

Re:My question is....

[Creepy Crawler]

What I always thought is that GPL or likewise license code isnt "free". There's a name and quality you put out for anyone to look at.

In a sense, you're putting out representations why somebody would hire you for a project.

Torvalds, Marcelo, and Cox may give time to code, but who in the software community WOULDNT hire them?

Re:My question is....

[Anonymous Coward]

Without 0 none these innovations would be possible.

search google for "who found number zero"

http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/HistTop ic s/Zero.html

Re:My question is....

[HungWeiLo]

That's why it's always fun to go into the middle of a "Jesus is black! No, Jesus is white!" discussion (however stupid it is to begin with) and say "Jesus is Asian! Israel is technically in the Asian continent and that makes Jesus Asian, dammit!"

Re:My question is....

[Anonymous Coward]

Zero and the decimal system was invented
by Indians. Indians are Indo-Europeans (by
definition, 'Aryan' from the Rig Veda) and
speak the European language of Sanskrit/Hindi.

Re:My question is....

[ernstp]

I think we (Euro/American) tend to overlook a lot of Eastern (China, Japan, India....) Open Source software projects because we just don't hear about them.

If you would frequent some Open Source site from one of those countries you would probably notice a lot more projects. Of cource, that's hard if one can't understand the language.
So, I think there are a lot of OSS communities in those countries too, they are just not very visible in our communities.

Re:My question is....

[rmminusf]

Interesting question! Although one should not forget that in India : 'Survival' comes foremost, followed by everything else. I am sure there is lot of potential for knowlegde exchange and open source development, but there are more number of people looking to cross economic class barriers and earn better living conditions. An avergae Indian will always look upto a person with similar job skills, but living with all the extra perks in a more well to do country. I guess this is one main reason that lures people away from open source software projects. They always strive towards betterment of one's own situation before thinking about the giving back to community.

Re:My question is....

[Dave2 Wickham]

Yeah, I'm not arguing that; just the parent stated that Asians aren't Hindus - and I pointed out that there are Asian Hindus.

Re:My question is....

[The Cydonian]

You will, once I get my home computer working. :-) [Can't code on company time, sorry]

Re:My question is....

[tdhdeep]

There are plenty of open source projects written by Indians.. Anjuta (http://www.anjuta.org) is one excellent example..
Even AnyEdit is written by an Indian..

Did I forget to say that I am the author of AnyEdit...? I guess not :)

Re:My question is....

[antoinjapan]

I'm Irish, and I'm too scared to fight

Re:My question is....

[stephanruby]

Anyway, if asked seriously, in China the idea of "free knowledge exchange" is not exactly a popular one as it is regularly looked down-upon by the government (and is even used as a reason to prosecute people).

But it's also an ingrained cultural habit. Chinese philosophers and intellectuals have had a long tradition of writing books *anonymously* and *without* taking credit for them.

I'm not saying this is the right idea, but it's certainly an interesting way of doing things.

Re:My question is....

[Anonymous Coward]

I've heard of the other stereotypes, but since when have Irish people liked fighting?

Re:My question is....

[FreshFunk510]

Notre Dame's Fighting Irish

The term "paddywagon"? (In case you didn't know it was because police used big vans (wagons) to arrest a bunch of drunk, belligerent "patties" (or Irish.. think St. Patrick)).

Re:My question is....

[ek-1000-ek]

IMHO, 1. Internet Bandwidth: Most people are on dialup and do not have very good 'net access'. That is the biggest hurdle. There is lot of 'free stuff' but it is not being shared properly or organised. This will improve. 2. Need: For a start, most of what is needed is currently under work. So many join in. Most of work has been done wrt to language and localisation. There is no bias against information sharing as such.

Good read, but whats the point?

[Kenja]

The problem IMHO is not the Indian workers. Hell, I feel their just geeks like us. The problem is that I, as a US programmer, am no longer allowed to compete for the jobs that get outsrouced. I for one would seriously consider doing a stint in India. However, unless I am sought out by an Indian company or get Indian citizenship I cannot apply for these jobs. This is where the problems are, all the companies touting globalization while lining their pockets are spewing bull shit. It is not globalization when you exclude local workers from even applying for the jobs. This of course brings us to the source of the problem. US companies are willing to sell out their workers and the economy for a short-term boost in stock price. They should all be ashamed and I hope they get brain cancer.

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[DAldredge]

Just wait. Our tax system can not survive a large influx of people who pay next to no taxes and most of the new jobs in the US don't pay enought to require those working at them to pay federal income tax. Something will have to change

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[dankney]

I have two immediate thoughts about this post:

1.) The problem there isn't the company. If they are a publically traded company, they are required by law to do everything possible to maximize shareholder value. If they don't, shareholders can sue them for failing in this duty. If we're worried as a country about labor outsourcing, we should look into this type of regulation.

2.) Yes, these jobs are going to continue to be outsourced. If you're like me, a commodity-level geek, then your job is in danger and there's nothing you can do about it (I'm working short-term contracts at the moment, some of it is to ease the transition to out-sourcing).

If you're unhappy with that situation, then you need to do everything in your power to increase your skills and experience beyond the commodity level. Maybe that means working your way into architecture-type positions. Maybe it means going back and getting an MBA and looking at the business side of IT. But if you're planning on doing hardware support over the phone for the rest of your carrer, you're pretty much screwed.

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[JavaLord]

Just wait. Our tax system can not survive a large influx of people who pay next to no taxes and most of the new jobs in the US don't pay enought to require those working at them to pay federal income tax. Something will have to change

Yes, but do you or your children want to be around before that change happens? It could get nasty. Instead of waiting do something about it...

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[DAldredge]

I am but it is sometimes difficult to get people to listen.

But that isn't stopping me.

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[Anonymous Coward]

Would you apply to work for $12000 US a year?

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[Kenja]

If that pays for a reasonable lifestyle, then yes I would. Hell, I know people with PHDs that are now working for minimum wage. Thats not much less then 12k a year and they have to deal with the US cost of living.

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[DAldredge]

Please reference that law.

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[BlueQuark]

Just what this country needs, is a bumper crop of MBAs, this will of course make the demand for MBAs plummet since there will be so many of them.

Ah, a country of marketing drones and MBAs...great...

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[Kenja]

In reference to point one. There is no such law. Stock holders can sure the company if they feel the company made a poor choice that effected the value of the stock. They cannot sue if the company fails to make every last dollar they can.

As for your second point. I have a job currently. It took me six months to find. I am competing against people with doctorates for basic IT positions. To this end I am infact getting a MBA and am giving up on the programming side of my work, deciding instead to continue to focus on network engineering and IT management.

Bottom line is that as more and more people with four and six year degrees find them selves out of work, its going to be impossible for people like me to find a job. Most people I know are out of the IT industry at this point, having to work as waiters and bus drivers in an attempt to stave off bankruptcy for another year.

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[beta21]

Of course you can apply for a job in India. It's the same as indians who want to work here
in the US.

Guess what though, the wait times for visas is much shorter. You have a much better deal in terms
of an american getting a job in India than an indian getting a job here.

You are right its not as easy as moving jobs from Texas to Oregon, but its still doable.
Straight from the Indian embassy:

EMPLOYMENT VISA: An appointment letter, contract letter, applicant's resume and proof that the organization is registered in India are required. Duration of visa would depend on the period of the contract.

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[cayenne8]

"The problem there isn't the company. If they are a publically traded company, they are required by law to do everything possible to maximize shareholder value. If they don't, shareholders can sue them for failing in this duty. If we're worried as a country about labor outsourcing, we should look into this type of regulation."

The problem is...things have changed, and even with outsourcing saving corps. expenses...this value in reality is NOT maximizing shareholder value. First...look how few companies pay dividends now. They are taking these increased profits...and putting them away in huge cash reserves...Look at the ridiculous amount of cash Microsoft and Cisco are sitting on. That money is doing nothing...not being re-invested...not being paid as dividends...etc.

These profits...if not being horded, are going to outrageous CEO and other upper management people. I mean, hey, I'd take the money if they gave it to me too, but, shouldn't the share holders figure that a corporate leader worth $300K/year could lead just as well as one making multi-millions of dollars a year? Re-investing money in to treat workers right with higher salaries and amenities in the work place...so, they'd be happier and more productive?

Nope...something basic has changed...and that's one reason that globalizationists I hear saying this will benefit the US I think are wrong...

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[Tablizer]

If you're unhappy with that situation, then you need to do everything in your power to increase your skills and experience beyond the commodity level. Maybe that means working your way into architecture-type positions.

Many "architecture" positions require people skills, something you can't just "pick up" by reading Learn People Skills in 21 Days. Most learned it partying and goofing off with friends while we were making AI games in the lab.

Besides, there are only about 1 such positions for every 5 programming positions. Everybody is already clawing their way to get such jobs to avoid globalism pink slips. Sure, some may actually be lucky to get such positions, but you cannot extrapolate that solution to everybody.

Face it, our geek goose is cooked.

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[The Night Watchman]

Just wait. Our tax system can not survive a large influx of people who pay next to no taxes and most of the new jobs in the US don't pay enought to require those working at them to pay federal income tax. Something will have to change

Exactly, along with the simple notion that IBM's American dollars are fueling the Indian economy instead of our own. You can't pour water out of one glass into another without the water level in the first glass going down quite a bit.

Proponents of offshoring claim that it will help to create jobs, but they fail to mention exactly what kinds of jobs will be created. The US doesn't produce anything anymore. Even retail and service providers are being swallowed up by large franchises. It's not just software people getting offshored. It's anything that doesn't require actual physical presence here in the US. It's getting harder and harder to find a line of work that *won't* be offshored, but it's in my best interest to start looking now.

Back to my original point... offshoring is opening up all the valves, and American resources are now spreading to fill a much larger container. A considerable bulge in the pipes is sitting in India right now, but it's just a matter of time before India gets too demanding and the US looks elsewhere. Globalization will raise quality of life for developing countries, and lower quality of life in first-world countries. As long as the economic standards are different in each country (e.g., middle class == $10k/year), this will continue to be the case. It's as if you have thousands of people winning the same lottery and each person ends up only getting a couple grand. Resources will spread themselves out so thinly that it might require a redefinition of the monetary system itself if we don't want to live in poverty.

I don't really know where I was going in all this :-) All I know is, the world is changing. Maybe I'll just become a hermit, buy me a couple of llamas and go live in the mountains. Technology is overrated anyway...

---

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[Anonymous Coward]

"I know people with PHDs that are now working for minimum wage."

I bet it is a cousin's co-worker's roommate's plumber's best friend's uncle.

Gimme a break... a PhD working at min wage isn't flipping burgers UNLESS they _really_ like flipping burgers... uh... or they have a PhD in a worthless field (QED).

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[Kenja]

"Gimme a break... a PhD working at min wage isn't flipping burgers UNLESS they _really_ like flipping burgers... uh... or they have a PhD in a worthless field (QED)."

Yup, computer science is now a worthless field. Exciting isn't it?

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[be-fan]

You don't have to be "sought out by an Indian company." You merely need a job offer for one. Nothing prevents you from seeking those jobs yourself.

As far as I'm concerned, that's fair on both sides. I mean, they can't come here without a job offer either!

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[be-fan]

A conservative against free trade? Oh, the hipocrisy rans rampant!

We believe in less government power... except when it comes to deciding who you can fuck.

We believe in less government power... except when it comes to deciding what you can research.

We believe in less government power... except when it comes to deciding who you can hire.

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[be-fan]

Quantum-electro-dynamics is a worthless field?

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[Anonymous Coward]

However, unless I am sought out by an Indian company or get Indian citizenship I cannot apply for these jobs.

I'm not sure if you know this, but this is pretty similar to H1B situation, just replace "Indian" with "American", That is; non-Americans face exactly the same problem as you do.

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[Anonymous Coward]

If they are a publically traded company, they are required by law to do everything possible to maximize shareholder value. If they don't, shareholders can sue them for failing in this duty.

No. This is completely false statement in itself; but more practically, company can decide whatever THEY THINK does things shareholders want (like maximing total shareholder value); there are no absolute requirements ("you HAVE to offshore"). There's no commonly accepted definition of offshoring as being necessary for maximizing shareholder value (for example, if results are of poor quality , which is often the case).

At more fundamental level, company leaders are in practice required to do certain things, to please shareholders; but mostly this is done contractually, and by owners retroactively assessing whether they think leaders do just that (plus whether they are capable of doing it efficiently etc). Very few things are covered by legalese; mostly only actual criminal activities are dealt with via courts. Failing (subjectively) to, say, maximize shareholder value, pretty much always leads to getting fired or replaced. Unless there's something crooked leading to that incapability (inside trading, conflicts of interests, withholding material information from owners for personal gain), there aren't many applicable laws shareholders could use.

Finally; "maximizing shareholder value" is not not the only (or even required) goal of a company; although that certainly is pretty common and generally important one. Some companies do have other agendas; especially ones that deal with, say, organic food stuff.

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[Anonymous Coward]

We believe in less government power... except when it comes to deciding who you can fuck.

Just because you support a certain canidate, doesn't mean you support everything they or their party stands for.

We believe in less government power... except when it comes to deciding what you can research.

Again, one of the more silly stances the right has taken by weaving realigious beliefs into politics. The left has plenty of dumb ones as well. What kills me is how every presidential candidate becomes a Jesus freak down south.

We believe in less government power... except when it comes to deciding who you can hire.

Only the left wants to control which Americans you do or dont hire through affermative action. The right (or at least the part that remembers what the party is really about) just wants to make sure Americans have jobs and compete in a fair labor market.

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[HumanTorch]

Yes, one of the original tenets of capitalism, mobility of labour, has been turned on its head now. Because the days of mass migrations are effectively over, labour is relatively immobile and can no longer effectively compete for the highest wage on a global scale. Conversely, because of globalization, capital has become increasingly mobile and is allowed to shop around for the lowest wage they can find, driving down wages everywhere. I think this bodes ill for workers in general, and I can only hope that labour unions arise in the wake of the continued global wave of corporate slash and burn tactics until there are no exploitable labour markets left.

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[Anonymous Coward]

Stock holders can sure the company if they feel the company made a poor choice that effected the value of the stock. They cannot sue if the company fails to make every last dollar they can.

And even more; I doubt there's way to sue for (or rather, to win a case based on) someone simply making poor choices per se. Without any actual illegal activity (usually, insider trading), it's just incompetence, which generally is not illegal (there are exceptions for some occupations, for gross negligence).

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[Anonymous Coward]

First off, let me say that I have no problem with people in other countries trying to inprove themselves. That is cool, everybody deserves a good life. Furthermore I have nothing against the Indian programmer(or call center worker etc...) either. Outsourcing(offshoring, or whatever euphemism you want to call it) is all about corporate greed. I am a CS major in college and we had a nice discussion in my world politics class yesterday, it started out with Bush's proposal about immigrant workers and then went from there to the outsourcing of high-tech jobs. Well my professor decided to shed some light on the subject by telling us that corporations receive tax breaks for sending jobs overseas. AND if any loss is incurred it is guaranteed by the US government. If they lose $30 million the government says "OK here ya go! Here's your $30 million!". If that doesn't smack of greed I don't know what does. I lay it all at the feet of all the CEO's and CFO's etc.. who want another house in Malibu and another Bentley in the garage.

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[overunderunderdone]

Exactly, along with the simple notion that IBM's American dollars are fueling the Indian economy instead of our own. You can't pour water out of one glass into another without the water level in the first glass going down quite a bit.

I don't necessarily disagree with your conclusions but I take issue with this statement. it is not a "simple" notion, it is a "simplistic" one and it is just plain wrong.

The size of the economy, unlike the water in your glass, is not fixed, it grows at a variable rate (and on occasion it can shrink) influenced by a wide range of factors. It is likely that outsourcing to India has a net positive effect on the rate of growth of the world economy. It is even possible (though perhaps less likely) that it has a net positive effect on the American economy - that the growth in the American economy from lower IT costs freeing up money to invest elsewhere generates more money and jobs than those lost by IT professionals. Of course such a net benefit would have broad, marginal effects across the entire economy and be hard to attribute specifically to outsourcing (everybody pays slightly lower prices for stuff, on the aggregate new jobs and wealth are created as a result). The costs on the other hand are felt deeply by a distinct group (IT professionals that lost their job)

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[Anonymous Coward]

+1 agreeding with slashdot commie mentality.

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[mindstrm]

There is no law requiring them to do "everything humanly possible to maximize shareholder value". They are, however, responsible for protecting shareholder value.. they MUST be.. and if the board is negligent and simply squanders the money, they need to have some legal responsibility, otherwise, money would simply be squandered with no reprecussions. The company could simply fire everyone, and the bosses could buy sailboats for everyone, then close up shop.

It's not the same as saying they have to squeeze every last red cent out of the employees, and run them like slaves, being as cheap as possible.

Choosing NOT to outsource to India will not likely land the directors in legal trouble.

This is one of those things.. like, peopel wonder why companies don't donate old copyrighted games to the public domain... the answer is because they have value, they cost little to keep, and giving them away would be deliberately reducing the value of the company.

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[leviramsey]

Even from a cost-benefit perspective, outsourcing is a questionable business move. It's the sort of thinking that an idiot MBA (I really should learn to avoid redundancies...) comes up with that often ends up costing the company massively, which doesn't affect the MBA any, as by the time the shit has hit the fan, the MBA has moved on to another victim.

99.99% of MBAs are worthless human beings and couldn't run a business to save their lives.

I'm involved with a private capital firm that's going into the snack cake business. We're closing the purchase of our plant in Boone, Iowa in a couple of weeks. As a later phase of the business, we're looking at purchasing a former Sara Lee plant elsewhere in the state. The plant was massively profitable and productive. Some MBA did an analysis that showed that Sara Lee should build a plant in South Carolina. Lo and behold, Sara Lee built a new plant there, closed the Iowa plant, and the new plant has been an unmitigated disaster. Yet another scam from an MBA.

IME, there are two mistakes a business can make. One is going public (except as a last resort for funding) and the other is bringing MBAs in. I'm setting up my own enterprises shortly; I plan to stay private and will enact a "no MBAs need apply" policy. Obtaining an MBA will be grounds for immediate dismissal of an employee.

What I'd like to see is a MBO program: a masters of business ownership. The first few years of the program would be general business and economic principles and so forth. In lieu of tuition and classes for the final year, the student is required to fund their own startup business, with the school making a loan at a market interest rate.

The business would be run by the student for the year. At the end of the year, a faculty committee of the school would certify the following three things:

• The business must not have violated any laws or standards of ethical business (e.g. not dealing drugs or engaging in accounting fraud)
• The business must have had positive cash flow for the year
• The student found an independent (relative to the student) buyer who purchased the business for an amount sufficient to retire the business's debt and give the student a positive return of capital

Now that's a degree that would actually be useful.

Regarding executive salaries, it's the same basic situation as we see in sports: there's a few who are genuinely worth the money (Jack Welch and Rupert Murdoch being notable) and deliver massive value to shareholders and can actually run a company. However, they set the bar high; other execs see that they're making millions and point out that their company generated profits of n% of GE's and thus the execs should be paid at a certain percentage of Mr. Welch. This is similar to a player who's good for 35 home runs a year arguing that they are worth 1/2 as much as a player who hits 70. And on the executive end, you have the additional problem of the fact that it's mostly executives of other companies that sit on the corporate boards.

Combine this with execs (much like Lord Black of Crossharbour) who are convinced that they still own a private company and you've really got a problem.

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[Anonymous Coward]

Proponents of offshoring claim that it will help to create jobs, but they fail to mention exactly what kinds of jobs will be created. The US doesn't produce anything anymore. Even retail and service providers are being swallowed up by large franchises. It's not just software people getting offshored. It's anything that doesn't require actual physical presence here in the US. It's getting harder and harder to find a line of work that *won't* be offshored, but it's in my best interest to start looking now.
Some suggestions:
1) Medicine

2) Dentistry

3) Law

4) Prostitution

5) Plumbing

6) Carpentry

7) Electrician

8) Auto mechanic (but don't expect to run your own small shop)

9) Military

10) Federal bureaucrat

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[HeghmoH]

Economics is not a zero-sum game. Everybody who talks like it is needs to reinvestigate the matter, because such discussions are basically pointless ramblings with no connection to reality.

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[The Night Watchman]

Economics is not a zero-sum game. Everybody who talks like it is needs to reinvestigate the matter, because such discussions are basically pointless ramblings with no connection to reality.

Point taken. I'm not well-versed in economics, as you can clearly see. But I think that there is at least some truth in my rambling.

Personally, I'm more concerned with acquiring a new skill-set so I'll be ready when the pink slips start flying around where I work.

---

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[foobar77]

Did you read the recent article about medicine being offshored? (Time, BW or similar) Thailand is building a multimillion $ hospital to cater to foreign patients. Some guy from Nebraska got a knee replacement + 3 weeks on the beach for $5K, about 1/4 what it would cost in the US. Your own personal paramedic meets you as you get off the plane. An Indian cardiologist who spend 20+ years in a top NY hospital has returned to southern India to setup a hospital catering to foreign patients. The hospitals are being certified by the same institutions that certify US and British hospitals.

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[skifreak87]

I'm currently a college sophomore and when choosing my major, the advice given to me was pretty much stay away from the IT sector. Basic economics, pay reflects supply and demand, not skill-level/education required to do the job. There's supposedly (and this does hold in many cases) a direct correlation between supply and the skill-level/education level needed for a job which is why there are statistics that the average college grad earns a lot more than the average high school grad. However, there's currently a huge supply of people who want to do programming/IT work and who are skilled enough to do it, and not nearly enough demand to support that supply. Consequently, pay will be low and many people wont find work in this sector.

Until the industry starts valuing skill more highly, which in my experience it does not*, pay will remain low because there's not much desire to attract real talent to most of these programmer/tech support/sys admin positions.

* Basic competency is all that's desired because the average person generally uses nowhere near the full capabilities of their technology. My parents were impressed when I showed them how to feed our Christmas cards into the printer and print them out instead of writing them by hand/having them professionally done. I still have friends who are in shock that it's possible, using an audio cable and an s-video cable, I can use the dvd player on my laptop to play a dvd on the TV. I also worked at a company two summers ago where they still had paperwork faxed to them instead of emailed (other companies wanted them to switch) because the owner of the company didn't understand "that tech stuff" and didn't want to deal with email.

Furthermore, a mildly-competent IT person still knows insanely more about their field than the average businessman. While skill is still recognized and appreciated, it's often not considered necessary and it's absence isn't even always recognized.

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[Anonymous Coward]

As much as I dispise mainstram media, but I find CNN's Lou Dobb's "exporting America" is going a really good job bringing this out to mainstream, and is causing Bush to focus on "damage control" at present, and of course the Dem's are taking this to the extremes... Perhaps we might get a new (and hopefully better) leader out of this.

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[El]

If they are a publically traded company, they are required by law to do everything possible to maximize shareholder value. If they don't, shareholders can sue them for failing in this duty. Couldn't they maximize shareholder value by investing in gambling, prostitution, and drugs? Or are there some other contraints they must work under, i.e. the responsibility to earn money in a legal, ethical manner. I'm not convinced the outsourcing gives such a great Return On Investment today -- but given a few more years of experience, it should be much more profitable tomorrow.

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[MarcQuadra]

I just got a job as a sysadmin for a division of the network here, and all I've got is high school. In fact, I've been employed this whole crunch. And if the employers looked closely, the'd see that I was actually kicked out of high school and had to finish at an alternative school.

All the folks I've worked for are big on education, but when they hear that I've ben running networks since I was 10 they tend to 'bend'.

That said, I do know several folks with EE masters who are loading trucks right now, but I really don't feel threatened by their big 'education' section on the resume, I've got a bigger 'experience' section, and no unexplained gaps or terminations, and that's what most are looking for.

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[spyfrog]

Please mod parent up!

The only effect globalization has is that the salary levels and working conditions is pushed DOWN.
As soon as the workers of one country tries to raise their wages, the employers will move to another country.
This is already happening to India - corporations move more and more work to China instead!

Globalization is a race to the bottom since there will always be a cheaper country and heance a for the rich to earn one dime more.

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[Anonymous Coward]

Could be worse. We could all be telephone sanitizers.

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[Grishnakh]

You forgot one:

11) Criminal

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[Rotten168]

Exactly. No one trades away their future. We use Indian programmers because that savings can be passed on to American consumers and American companies can take the money saved and invest in R&D all over the world (including the US).

The downside? You're now competing with the rest of the world.

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[be-fan]

Bullshit. If you're going to lambast the left for using affirmative action for hiring policies, then you have to lambast the right for wanting to "make sure Americans have jobs." Forcing people to hire Latinos is *no* different than forcing people to hire American workers.

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[tropicflite]

Basic economics, pay reflects supply and demand, not skill-level/education required to do the job.

Ain't THAT the truth, and it's not just IT either. I'm an airline pilot. Without trying to sound like an a**hole, we're among the most proficiently trained (and mercilessly monitored) workgroups in the world.. and like IT people, almost everyone who does this job can't imagine doing anything else. But since 9/11 and the massive layoffs across the industry, we've found out the hard way that our labor is a commodity, subject to the same ruthless rules of supply and demand.

There was a time when pilots suffered through many years of low pay in order to reap a few years of high pay, but with the glut of laid-off pilots on the market, the future's been cancelled and instead there's been a race to the bottom as we realize we're just another oversupplied labor pool that better take what it can get. And by the way, a great pilot doesn't make any more than a mediocre one... never has and (probably) never will.

So we have a choice, it seems... either do what we love, and accept that it may not pay what we want, or go for the money, and spend our lives working at something that doesn't ignite our passion.

Oh, I guess there's a 3rd choice.. we can do something that neither pays well NOR is gratifying. Most people fall into that category anyway.

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[vivian]

The US doesn't produce anything anymore
Well you still seem to have the fast food industry and express courier delivery sewn up...

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[zero_offset]

You got screwed by the Flamebait mod. Hopefully it'll be outweighed by a few Insightfuls...

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[The Night Watchman]

The downside? You're now competing with the rest of the world.

And what jobs are left for Americans when middle-class white collar jobs are mostly offshored to cheaper countries? How do you propose that ordinary Americans make a living when the only job that pulls in an income is "owner and CEO of large multinational corporation"?

We're going to end up with an ultra-privileged upper class, and the bulk of the American population below the poverty line. Thus far, I have seen not a single viable argument that convinces me that this isn't happening. Proponents of offshoring claim that it will create jobs in the US, but they fail to provide a convincing argument that the resulting jobs will be plentiful enough or pay enough to be a realistic replacement. In fact, they fail to even mention what those jobs will even be.

It's great monetarily for the ones running the companies. Never mind the fact that the thousands of people now out of work still have families to feed while the CEOs bask in their rising stock prices.

---

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[Rotten168]

Not every job is offshorable. I thought I heard that about 40% are, but not even all of those jobs will be offshored.

As our jobs are offshored our currency will drop to make up the difference. All nations must pay for their imports with their exports in the end. We will either find something to export to the rest of the world or our currency will drop to the point in which it's not longer beneficial to offshore to other countries.

This is the argument for free trade anyway. And either you will find something that they cannot do in another country or salaries will drop. We as individuals must find something that we can do better and cheaper than Indians, perhaps on site technical support.

In the meantime prices should fall to where cost of living falls here in the US, and this should make our shores more competitive.

Protectionism simply will not work in this case. You cannot put a tariff on bytes. And what's to stop small business owners from finding a clandestine site that offers blackmarket cheap overseas programmers? The only way protectionism would work would be to disconnect our internet from the rest of the world's.

There simply is no turning back here. Our workers have got to be so much better than Indians that offshoring isn't a good solution.

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[Anonymous Coward]

Forcing people to hire Latinos is *no* different than forcing people to hire American workers.

Sure it is, the Government exists for the American people. Not just latino-Americans, African-Americans, etc. It surely does not exist to help India or China take jobs away from America.

Re:Good read, but whats the point?

[bwcbwc]

Globalization will raise quality of life for developing countries, and lower quality of life in first-world countries. As long as the economic standards are different in each country (e.g., middle class == $10k/year), this will continue to be the case.

Exactly! We have to face the fact that wages for US white collar jobs are going to seriously drop over the next couple of decades. The only question is how many of these jobs will migrate to Asia.

Since (barring new technology or an economic paradigm shift) wages are going to drop anyway, I propose a policy that will at least keep a larger percentage of the jobs in the US: Liberalize high tech worker visas for foreign workers, particularly India and China. This liberalization could take the form of allowing transfers of H1Bs between employers, renewals of H1Bs or conversion into green cards, or simply allowing a grace period to find a new sponsor before having to leave.

The downside of this is that it will accelerate the decline of wages in the US and could accelerate negative environmental impacts, but there are multiple upsides:

• Wages will increase more quickly in India and China because the supply of available programmers will shrink (or grow more slowly). This will more quickly decrease the motivation for businesses to outsource to India and China and reduce the number of jobs that actually leave.
• The equilibrium point for wages in the US will be reached more quickly and may be higher. The liberalized immigration will accelerate the convergence of the wage/price conditions in the US and India by opening the labor market here. By acquiring Indian developers before the Indian middle class grows any larger, we can introduce greater scarcity in the Indian labor market than by a slower approach where more middle class Indians will have the chance to put their children through college. Workers that emigrate to the US would have their children here, rather than in India, so we would have the benefit of those resources.
• It will help resolve the Social Security and other budget deficits by increasing the number of US taxpayers and reducing the average age of the workforce.
• Combined with tax disincentives for moving work offshore, we actually could come out ahead in the long run.

how to strike it rich

[thelonious]

1) Go to the Brazilian rain forest and locate a native tribe
2) Teach them java but keep them living in huts
3) Pay them in roots and berries
4) Let the contracts roll!!

Re:how to strike it rich

[meta-monkey]

When you have an IPO, let me know. I'm buyin'!!!

Re:how to strike it rich

[Anonymous Coward]

Correction:
1) Go to the Brazilian rain forest and locate a native tribe
2) Teach them java but keep them living in huts
3) Pay them in roots and berries
4) ???
5) Profit!

Re:how to strike it rich

[Anonymous Coward]

Teaching them Java is the easy part.
Creating a computer out of wood and vines, well, that's a completely different story.

Re:how to strike it rich

[No. 24601]

Who are you and how do you know about the Zootalooga tribe?

Re:how to strike it rich

[thelonious]

Just followed the cat5 through the underbrush.

Re:Question still unanswered....

[Kenja]

"Whats with the dot?"

Its the dot in dot com.

Oh boy, Ganesh is gona be pissed at me for that one.

"Outsourcing"

[MillionthMonkey]

Let's note, from the start, that Prudential does not "outsource" to India. They own their own call center (or centre, depending on your spelling heritage) there. When you speak to someone in their New Delhi office, she -- and it is usually "she" -- is just as much a Prudential employee as someone working in one of their U.S. offices.

When Americans speak of "outsourcing" in this context they mean "out" as in "out of the country". What is being described here is arguably worse than outsourcing per se from our perspective since it represents a more significant investment.

Re:"Outsourcing"

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, "outsourcing" means "out of the company," not "out of the country." You can outsource within the States.

Re:"Outsourcing"

[Anonymous Coward]

Technically, I think that is called offshoring, not outsourcing. The affect is the same.

I say good for the Indian babe. Just wish it didn't have to come at the expense of an American babe, but I guess thems the breaks.

Re:"Outsourcing"

[geoffspear]

Yeah, and anyone who works for Sony in the US should feel very guilty about taking the jobs of the Japanese workers who really deserve them, too. It's an abomination.

Re:"Outsourcing"

[MillionthMonkey]

Dude, "outsourcing" means "out of the company," not "out of the country." You can outsource within the States.

True. My point is that in the U.S., when people say "outsourcing" (especially in political contexts) they are usually referring to what is called "offshoring".

Re:"Outsourcing"

[leviramsey]

When Americans speak of "outsourcing" in this context they mean "out" as in "out of the country".

Any American who thinks that's the definition of outsourcing is an idiot who deserves to live in a cardboard box full of their own filth.

Outsourcing does not in any way shape or form imply anything about offshoring. Outsourcing is simply contracting to others work that you used to do in-house. Now, the place you go to outsource may be to Delhi, but it might as well be Denver, so far as the term "outsourcing" is concerned.

Re:"Outsourcing"

[Anonymous Coward]

your trolling. Americans and others. Have you forgot about the EU? Go look up how the EU's GDP stacks up to the USA (in greenbacks, no less). Welcome to globalization!

Re:"Outsourcing"

[Anonymous Coward]

The EU, or "Ewww" as it should be called, is made up of at least 16 countries. The EU does not have a GDP as it stands for Gross Domestic Product, unless they are now a single country. You are the one who is trolling.

Re:"Outsourcing"

[Milo77]

i have always heard this trend referred to as outsourcing/offshoring. the above is an example of offshoring.

Re:"Outsourcing"

[Karadryel]

When Americans speak of "outsourcing" in this context they mean "out" as in "out of the country".

This is a pretty stupid comment. Outsourcing and offshoring are different things. Outsourcing is when a company subcontracts the work to another country - the source of the work is outside the company. Offshoring is when a company has work done on its behalf by people outside its own country.

So you can have outsourcing that's not offshoring (when Microsoft hires a US-based temp agency to do work), and offshoring that's not outsourcing (when Prudential opens an office in India).

Please stop modding up ignorance as "Insightful."

Re:"Outsourcing"

[MillionthMonkey]

This is a pretty stupid comment. Outsourcing and offshoring are different things.

Hmmm... I was making an observation about current usage and you come back with an argument ad lexicon?

Outsourcing is when a company subcontracts the work... [explanation of "outsourcing" and "offshoring"]

Yes, I have a dictionary too.

I'm going to go out on a limb and charitably guess that English is your second language? There is a subtle distinction between a word's definition and what its current usage might be. A dictionary is the reference for a definition, and reflects common usage of a word at the time the dictionary was written. Since most word definitions in dictionaries were written more than a few years ago, it is no surprise that usage may differ from the dictionary definition, especially for a word such as "outsourcing" that has taken on new meaning recently. And let's be realistic. Despite what the dictionary says, when an American technology worker in 2004 loses his job because of "outsourcing", everyone knows what just happened.

Technically we should say "offshoring" but that word is relatively unknown.

Please stop modding up ignorance as "Insightful."

One of the hallmarks of a /. newbie: scolding the moderators and telling them how they should be doing their job. One soon learns not to do that!

Re:"Outsourcing"

[Anonymous Coward]

The EU is a single trading block.

The US is formed of multiple states, each with their own government, so are they excluded from GDP calculations.

"expensive" books?!?

[SuperBanana]

there were many small, quiet sessions that revolved around using computers and the Internet to distribute information to people in neighborhoods and villages where books are now rare and expensive.

Last time I looked, for the cost of a cheap PC, you can buy dozens, if not hundreds, of books. They don't need internet connections or power, aren't affected by dust, dirt or careless handling. They also at least a couple decades.

The sad thing is, the same crap has been happening in the US for at least a decade. Yessir, Smallville has a computer in every classroom, but Johnny and Suzy need to "share" To Kill a Mockingbird because there's "no money" for more copies. The teachers have to buy supplies out of their own pockets because the school has "no money". And that computer? Sits off most of the time, or even worse, sits on, drawing inane animated pictures on the screen, running up the school's electric bill.

I strongly suggest reading Cliff Stoll's Silicon Snake Oil...

Re:"expensive" books?!?

[stratjakt]

Teachers who buy supplies out of their own pockets, are generally new college grads, teaching at the lower elementary level, (K-3) who fancy themselves the next great educator.

They want to do all those 'fun and new' activities that they read about in chickadee magazine. Because school is apparently about everything BUT learning math, english, or history.

My third grader is required to take a calculator to class because they dont want to spend time teaching kids arithmetic. Because some kids find it hard, and the argument is it discourages them and they dont like school and dont want to learn. Oh, and heaven forbid any child fail at anything. Of course, the real reason is, that its too much like work to actually TEACH the kids who have trouble grasping it.

Anyways, sorry bitch, but making papier machee monkeys to celebrate martin luther king day is not in the budget. A ditto machine and a fucking number 2 pencil was all we needed in my day.

Re:"expensive" books?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Your view is a little shortsighted. In some villages even firewood is hard to come by. So your dozens or hundreds of books could quickly become kindling for a poor family who is cold and needs to burn something to cook and stay warm. The computer of course could easily be stolen but that depends on how watchful the teachers and principal of the school are. That is of course if they don't walk off with the computer themselves.

Re:"expensive" books?!?

[lordpixel]

Many recent computer books run $50-60. You can get a cheap PC for $300. So that's 5 books to one computer.

Of course, the PC may cost more in India, and the books may cost less each.

And of course, people may have much more need for books other than computer books, and these might have lower prices due to more copies being printed (and the amount the market is willing to pay).

But your example of "hundreds" of books to one computer is way off base if you're assuming up to date technical books is what people would want.

Sure, you can probably get lots of copies of 'To Kill a Mocking Bird' for the price of a PC in India. However, I doubt that's what people in an Indian village would want to read online, had they access to the Internet.

Re:"expensive" books?!?

[kfg]

Have you priced a Britannica or an O.E.D. lately?

For that matter have you tried to buy a dead tree O.E.D. lately?

I happen to agree with Cliff, books, on the whole, are more important than computers. But books are hardely cheap. I have far more money into books than I do into computer equipment, and I payed less than a buck apiece for many of my books. That's not including my Project Gutenberg books, which exceed my computer in value by a considerable margin. Have you priced Gibbon lately? The unexpurgated Burton translation of The Arabian Nights?

Of course that's because I bought those books used, which presupposes a sufficient new book market, and an economy wherein they can be considered disposable.

I too strongly suggest reading Cliff Stoll's Silicon Snake Oil, it'll cost you twelve bucks in paperback from Amazon. That's twelve bucks a head for schoolroom use and the paperback won't last long.

If I gave up reading I could damned near live for free. As it is the single largest catagory in which I feel financially disadvantaged here in America is not having suffiecient funds for books.

They're God damned expensive.

KFG

Re:"expensive" books?!?

[be-fan]

The US K-12 system blows. For example, students learn about Native Americans several years in a row, but don't take a *single* class in European history! How the fuck are they supposed to become principled young adults if they don't understand the basic history of Western civilization???

Fortunately, the excellent university system undo's much of the brain-damage inflicted by K-12, but the majority of people don't get the chance to go to college. The GT system is a god-send, though, because the teachers basically make real progress by ignoring state regulations...

Re:"expensive" books?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Fortunately, the excellent university system undo's much

Maybe it undoes most of the damage, but it failed you.

Re:"expensive" books?!?

[LauraScudder]

What's worse, in Texas public schools, you're forced into a history rotation with one year each of first Texas, then US, then World (aka European) history. I'm sorry to break it to Texas lawmakers, but there's only so much interesting Texas history to cover, and it's certainly not four years worth of material. Those classes always degenerated into writing reports about the scoundrel who ran out on their wife and kids back east to found your hometown and wipe out the Indians. Great people to look up to. Sure it's important that every Texas kid learn that goddamnit we can secede any time! but c'mon. There's sure a hell of a lot more world history to be covered.

Re:"expensive" books?!?

[be-fan]

Bah. I'm an engineer. I don't need me no English!

Re:"expensive" books?!?

[TBone]

Maybe where you liev that's the case. That's not the case in such backwater states as, say, Florida.

When my daughters start school, they won't need to take calculators. They're going to need to take things like Tissues, colored cardboard, notepaper, and pencils, to share not just with her class, but the entire rest of the school, because in order to be able to affort that math teacher this year, they cut $30,000 from the supplies budget. Personally I agree that educators today are getting lazy - but you can't pass the whole buck on to that; there are some serious problems with education right now in the US that have nothing to do with Lazy and everything to do with "We can spend $100,000 on new equipment to keep us safe frmo terrorists, or we can keep those 3 teachers employed".

And thanks for bringing up dittoes. Now I'll probably get hit up for a request for 5 gallons of that ugly purple ink.

Re:"expensive" books?!?

[__aafutm5472]

Obligatory Simpson's joke:

"Me flunk English? That's unpossible!"

Re:"expensive" books?!?

[DAldredge]

What is to stop students from learning on their own?

Re:"expensive" books?!?

[DAldredge]

How much does you daughters spend on admins and those that do not teach? You will be suprised when you check it out, it will be a very large number. The main problem isn't the amount of money spent on schools, it's how it is spent and spending it on non-teachers is a waste.

Re:"expensive" books?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know about where you are, but I can tell you what the teacher I work with buys out of her pocket: dry-erase markers so the kids can work on the board. And probably tissues.

And using a calculator for anything prior to algebra, if not geometry, is just rediculous.

Re:"expensive" books?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

In Bangalore there are shops where they photocopy books for you. You deliver the book and a few days later you have a hardcover photocopy. Furthermore some popular technical books are sold in indian editions for a lower price.

Re:"expensive" books?!?

[DrCode]

No kidding! I mentioned the Berlin Wall to my 9th grade daughter, and she hadn't even heard of it.

Re:"expensive" books?!?

[lovswr]

Tbone I thought this only happened in Georgia. What I want to know is, why did my property taxes go up almost 40% last year. The teachers did not get a raise, as that is one of the major issues this year. So what gives!?!?!?!

Re:"expensive" books?!?

[haggar]

While I agree with the general point you make, I'd like to point out that the books us techies use (and I don't mean only programming or computer science, but also electronic engineering) don't really need to last a couple decades. This kind of content is obsolete after about 10 years at the latest.

I suspect thst 20 years from now, the only books that will still be on my shelves are physics, electromagnetism, electrical engineering, math and chemistry.

Re:"expensive" books?!?

[dwillden]

Last time I looked, for the cost of a cheap PC, you can buy dozens, if not hundreds, of books.

Hmm I beg to differ. I paid over $100 for a single trig textbook this semester (and it's not even that thick of a book, unlike the calculus book I'll be looking at next fall. Considering what Wal-mart is charging for their Lind--s machines ($199 is the starting price) your claim does not stack up.

This claim of not being able to get enough or new books was made a few years ago by the teachers in my area as part of their otherwise very justified demands for more funding.

The district quashed that argument very quickly with a statement explaining that there were well defined procedures for ordering new books. The procedures were little more than filling in an order form for the books. In addition the district had literally millions sitting in a dedicated account. This money came from the book fees every secondary student had to pay each year. The money was there, the system to utilize it was there, simple and well documented. The teachers just weren't using it.

The next year most of the texbooks my sister brought home were brandnew.

And as with the textbook I purchased this semester, as a college student, I wish books would be allowed to get to be several years old before being replaced. But then /. has thrashed over that scam many times.

As to the computers not getting used. Talk to a teacher why don't you. I'm no teacher myself but I know, and occasionally date, several. These lovely ladies cover the full range from kindergarten through jr High and Highschool teachers. I've helped one scrounge for and install network cards for old computers she scrounged from her family so her students could more fully utilize some excellent educational programs she uses.

In my opinion, if the teachers are lacking money, more often than not it's to be found in the marble coated District offices, overpaid "administrators" and other support staff who get paid better than the teachers. Recently another friend who is a teacher was telling me about how the head janitor at his jr. High makes over $60,000 a year, more than double what he makes. The other full time janitors pull in around $40K How are the services of a Janitor worth more than those we entrust with the teaching and building of our youth?

Then of course there is also the very expensive legal staff every school district has to maintain now days. People will drop a lawsuit on a school for the smallest things. And those suits have to be well fought or the schools will lose even more money that should be going to the students and the real educators.

Re:"expensive" books?!?

[be-fan]

If the priorities of the school system are correct, students should learn European history in school rather than about Native Americans. Native American culture has zero influence on current American culture. Meanwhile, current American culture is firmly rooted in Western European culture and history.

Learning about Native Americans is worthwhile, and good enrichment, but should not take the place of topics that are more important for each person to understand.

Re:"expensive" books?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Design Patterns goes for $50 in the us and $5 in India.

Re:"expensive" books?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll tell you what gives, GA, sucks! And that's when you compare it with a lame ass state like OK. I currently live in GA and used to live in OK.

Re:"expensive" books?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

They basically ignore Asian culture before Marco Polo, then skip to 1800s And if you think it's irrevelant perhaps you should check your shit and see how much of its "Made in China".

Re:"expensive" books?!?

[be-fan]

I'm not saying that Asian culture is unimportant (I'm Indian) but I do believe that understanding European history is more important for Americans than understanding Asian history, because it helps them understand Western culture.

Re:"expensive" books?!?

[dswan69]

Or wasting money on expensive weaponry instead of education.

How much of its budget does the US waste on the military?

Re:"expensive" books?!?

[dwillden]

I'd like to add to my previous rant that the School districts where I live are now under attack by the state legislature for using funds, allocated by the state for textbooks, for other costs, such as cheerleader uniforms and similar costs. So even when the state started allocating funding specifically for books on top of the book fees students must pay, the school districts just spent the money elsewhere.

Re:Enjoy it while you can..

[Anonymous Coward]

Try modding it "Insightful", since it represents a different viewpoint. Oh wait I forgot this is Slashdot where different views aren't embraced.

The slashdot mods backing up the indians, THEY PUT THE DOT IN SLASHDOT!

Is Kali a statue of the six-arm programmer?

[asbestos_tophat]

Is Kali a statue of the six-arm programmer?
=)

Re:Is Kali a statue of the six-arm programmer?

[Anonymous Coward]

do not be feeding my god a peanut!

Re:Is Kali a statue of the six-arm programmer?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ohhhhhh...so THAT's how management consultants sell CEOs on outsourcing!

CEO: "Now, if everything you say is true, I can save money doing this. Instead of supporting a steak-and-SUV lifestyle for every code monkey, I only have to support a curry-and-moped lifestyle. Normally I wouldn't even look back at this point, but my staff has brought up a point: what about the productivity of Indian programmers? Will this actually save me money in the long run?"

Management consultant: *clicks to next PowerPoint slide which is an image of Kali, turns to CEO and raises one eyebrow* "Need I say more?"

CEO: *turns to aide* "Send out a memo requiring two additional keyboards be installed for every programmer. And give this guy whatever he wants."

important question...

[wankledot]

Which beer Is better? I like beer, and I know quite a bit about Belgian and German beers, but not very many Indian ones. I do eat a lot of indian food, and see a few "domestic" Indian beers around the restaurants, but I don't know which is any good, or if there are some I should look for at local stores that might not be so common.

Which one would any of you folks back in Indian recommend?

Maybe we can get a flame^H^H^H^H^H beer war going here.

Re:important question...

[psycho_tinman]

I've tried Kingfisher beer. Light, not bad. Has to be better than Bud and Coors light *blech* Also something that might be called "Taj Mahal", but I am not sure.

For a real flameout though, try "Old Monk" whiskey (if that's what it is). Has a kick like a mule, and a little goes a very very long way :)

Re:important question...

[Sarvagya]

Try Kingfisher, in US its not technically an Indian beer as the one that you normally get in the US is brewed in UK (see, India outsourced beer brewing to UK :o)), however its an Indian beer in the sense that that brand and the brewing company is Indian and its brewed in India for the Indian market under the same brand name. Most Indian beers are pale ale's, pilsners or lagers. You will not find any dark beers in India (by that I mean dark beers brewed in India). Although not available here in the US, but some of the so called "strong" beers in India have an alcohol content as high as 14%.

Re:important question...

[Rhubarb Crumble]

I'm not sure what you mean by "domestic", at least in the UK most "indian" beers are actually brewed in Bradford.

But Bangla is damn nice, especially the 660ml bottles it comes in.

Re:important question...

[bot]

Back in India I drank Kingfisher.. not had it in a while. Heard they do a mighty nice swimsuit special too!

Re:important question...

[Sarvagya]

"Old Monk" is atcually a rum. And yes, Taj Mahal is an Indian beer available in may Indian restaurants here in the US.

Re:important question...

[spaceman harris]

Cobra: the less fizzy lager, low carbonation is an asset when eating spicy stuff. www.cobrabeer.com

Kingfisher: low cal, and good in hot weather.

Re:important question...

[bot]

Old Monk Rum.. now that gives a mule of a kick all right!

Re:important question...

[bot]

Forgot the obligatory link

Re:important question...

[Chicane-UK]

Both very good, and served in curry houses across the city I live in, in the UK.

Both compliment Indian food very well :)

Re:important question...

[__aafutm5472]

My friend from India says our beer is like water compared to some of the beers they have.

Re:important question...

[Anonymous Coward]

Everybody in the world says that about American beer. Your beer sucks. Want a good beer? Try "Fin du Monde" ("The End of the World"). 750ml and 9% alcohol.

American beer is commonly referred to as piss. I'm not talking about the micro-brews, some of which are good, but the big brands like Bud, Coors, etc. Only desperate people buy those brands when everything else is sold out. :)

Re:important question...

[The Cydonian]

If you *really* want to go all Indian, you MUST try toddy (kallu, naaTu saaraa) tapped and brewed straight from the palm trees. One of the most potent juices around. The downside, though, is that you have to careful of the source; there *have* been deaths coz of illicit liquor.

Seriously though, Kingfisher is a great Indian beer, and no, Cobra isn't truly Indian [not available in India, although the CEO of the company is from my alma mater B-) ] and no, Kingfisher UK is apparently not the same as Kingfisher India.

Personally, I prefer this brand of flavoured water known as Tiger Beer from across our pond. Not that I *recommend* it though; just that I'm more used to it than other brands. ;-)

Hmmmm...

[Anonymous Coward]

Notice that this interview was answered weeks or months faster than any other one I've seen here. Maybe these companies outsourcing are onto something...

Read here.

[Anonymous Coward]

Manifesto of the Communist Party

Caste?

[dr_dank]

I would love to know where the Caste system comes into play in modern India. Would lower caste members (the $35/month servants) have any shot at these tech jobs?

Re:Caste?

[gokulpod]

Generally speaking, the lower classes in India are poorer and less educated than higher classes. This has lead to a situation where the middle and upper classes are the oringinal high-class people (brahmins, kshatriyas etc), while the poorer people are from the lower classes (the shudras).

Therefore it is very rare to see a lower class person take up a white collar job since their education levels are much lower. The government on India does reserve certain seats in colleges etc for these classes (analogous to affirmative action in US), but the quality of such graduates is questionable.

I have a few friends from "lower classes", and among the younger educated folks, there isnt as much discrimination as before. But overall, the situation for the lower classes is not heart warming.

Re:Caste?

[alphakappa]

aaaaaaaarghhhhh! for the final time - servants are not from "lower castes".. servants are those who need the money and will do the job. At these tech jobs, no one cares $hit about caste!

Re:Caste?

[Anonymous Coward]

In the modern part of India, the average person doesn't care about caste. While working, making friends, socializing, in school and in most other situations (see below for exceptions), no one cares about what caste the other person belongs to.

The exceptions are in remote villages - where caste matters in many things. Even in cities, caste will be considered when you look for a bride/groom to marry (generally a majority of people marry in the same caste, but this is changing now with inter-caste marriages being not uncommon in this generation).

Other than that, the government policies make reservations (in govt. jobs and schools) for the "lower" castes. This is an issue in India at times. Also, the policitians try to play the caste cards in the rural areas when it suits them.

That pretty much covers the framework of the impact of caste system in today's India (for a /. post, anyway!)

Re:Caste?

[Deraj DeZine]

analogous to affirmative action in US

I was under the impression that affirmative action in the US was based entirely (or almost entirely) on race and level of education was ignored. This would explain why people dislike affirmative action in the US, anyway.

Re:Caste?

[raj2569]

In a nutshell lower cast == blacks in amarica. they are poorer, have less education, but that do not means they have less chance. Previous president of India was a lower case. One who came from a log house to the Rastrapati Bhavan (White house equivelent)

raj

Re:Caste?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey this is slashdot! You will not get modded up unless you say something along the lines of " yeah we are all evil and cast system DOES previal in the cities."
Now because some villages are backward, does it mean the whole of India emphases caste ? So by the same logic, America supports poygamy because you can find some mormon villages practicing it in utah.

Yeah we know you guys are pissed of at your jobs being outsourced. But does making india look like a medival slave market, make you feel any better ?

If we dont like something we all look for reasons to hate it. Thay took our jobs ! they must all be practicing slavery !

Yeah you can find that caste is a big issue in remote villages. But even in villages it is getting better as more and more people are educated. If you look at the percentage of educated people and caste issues you will find that as more and more people are educated in a community, that community emphasises less on caste issues. Caste is not a big deal in the major cities as of now.

But the importance of caste in india arises from the huge emphasis placed on religion. As long as everything is driven by religion and people do not think logically, caste and other social evil will presist. Indians do not tend to think logically and you can see examples of this in the number of god men, quacks, astrologers and other people thriving on peoples ignorance. All this and the caste system is closly related. Anyways as long as India has all thses problems you guys do not need to worry. The jobs will stay here for sometime go to phillipines, russia and africa and in the end will create a bigger economy for the US. We on the other hand hope and look for the day when most of the billion is educated, and sort out the religious and caste based issues once for all.

Re:Caste?

[Anonymous Coward]

America supports poygamy because you can find some mormon villages practicing it in utah.

OT, and not to detract from your point, but Mormons do not practice polygamy. There are groups in Utah that do practice it semi-openly, and many of them call themselves Mormons, but they are not. Mormons who practice polygamy are excommunicated in short order.

Re:Caste?

[p0rnking]

The caste system been disallowed by the government. But even so, people are still living it.

Re:Caste?

[Screaming Lunatic]

I would love to know where the Caste system comes into play in modern India.

Put together money to leave. I have family members that immigrated to England, Italy, Dubai, the US, and Canada (where my parents immigrated to and I was born and live).

Re:Caste?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah.. discrimination based on caste has been illegal forever in the modern state of India.

However, it's use is rampant in villages where people still live the same as they did 100 or 200 years ago. Electrification is slowly changing this.

Re:Caste?

[gnalle]

In Gandhi's autobiography he describes his caste a kind of family clan headed by some family elders. I am confused by this book. Does the word caste refer to a family clan?

PS: I realize that much has happened to indian society since the birth of Gandhi, so perhaps I should rephrase my question into: Did the word caste refer to a family clan at the time when Gandhi was young?

Re:Caste?

[Lord Ender]

How can India have such a clearly identifiable Caste system while having a Communist government? Shouldn't the government be distributing the wealth among the population? Or else it isn't really Communism...

Re:Caste?

[hackrobat]

Well, for one, the parent has confused "class" with "caste". And India is not communist, per se. It's only a couple of Indian states that have so-called communist governments.

Re:Caste?

[sketerpot]

Occasionally people prefer less extreme ways of getting such information, like asking somebody. :-)

Re:Caste?

[Adam_Trask]

Centuries ago, a small % of upper-caste folks oppressed the large % of lower-caste people. After independence, when the more oppurtunities for education/work became available, the upper-caste families had a head start because they were already better educated/employed/informed. So, the % of upper-caste comprising today's middle-and-upper-class is higher than the % of upper-caste in the whole population.

Affirmative action is strictly followed by public institutions (like universities and govt organizations.) It is easier for somebody from a lower-caste to get admitted to univs and get promoted in jobs in the govt institutions. That's because there are not enough lower-caste people competing for the reserved positions; and the competition for the open positions is cut-throat. Goes to show that the lower-caste population is still lagging statistically.

The population of India being more than 1 billion, there would be plenty of exceptions-- there are many poor upper-caste people and lots of rich/powerful families are from lower castes. Most notably, govts in many states are by political parties representing the lower-castes.

Private companies do not care-- they will hire you based on your qualifications. Most people in urban areas won't care either, until it is time to marry off their kids.

This site gives a good overview of the caste system in modern India.

Re:Caste?

[The Cydonian]

The answer is that the so-called caste 'system' isn't quite as systemic as it sounds. More like a hotch-potch of traditions, mindsets, communities and dialects spread across India's villages that continues to rear its ugly head in places where it shouldn't be.

A bit like, say, someone from Northern Ireland not getting a job in Limerick because of his accent (took the example from Angela's Ashes)

Re:Caste?

[The Cydonian]

Caste was ALWAYS about family clans. It's comparable to the clan associations that turn-of-century Chinese had.

Re:Caste?

[navster]

PS: I realize that much has happened to indian society since the birth of Gandhi, so perhaps I should rephrase my question into: Did the word caste refer to a family clan at the time when Gandhi was young? Heh. You'd be surprised at how little has changed since the birth of Gandhi, regarding caste anyway. The caste system has been around atleast a couple of millenia. There have been attempts to reform the society (to get rid of the caste system basically) for atleast a couple of hundred years now. While it is true that there is *some* change, there is still a ways to go, and it ain't goin away anytime soon. Anyway, to answer your question, your caste is a superset of your family. If you're born into a family that belongs to a particular caste, you 'belong to that caste'.

Re:Caste?

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't it rather ironic that the poster (as in the person who posted this) in the US is worried about Caste? Just a couple of days ago, there was an article in NYTimes about a town in Ohio refusing to provide tap water based on the color of the skin of the residents? (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/17/national/17WATE .html)
As much as I am shamed about the discrimination foisted by the Caste system in India, I can point out proudly that one of those belonging to a lower caste became the President of India. How many decades will pass before that sort of thing happens in the US?.
Americans(like physicians), heal thyselves of bigotry before turning your attention to the world

Re:Code moankey Indians

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong buddy. VS Naipaul for Literature and one in ecconomics in the last 2 or three years.

Quality of Medical Care

[dotsbir]

Wow, was that medical care comment a blunder. If you've got money (and in the same vein as the food comments, having money really only means having 5-10% of the equivalent in US dollars) then the medical care is superb and includes ICU care and hospital day stays that are UNHEARD OF in the USA nowadays. The valve hardware itself would cost $10k more in the US to cover litigation / malpractice costs.

A friend of mine's aunt ended up having open heart surgery for a valve replacement in Baroda India. She had it at a private surgicenter with excellent Indian U.S. trained physicians with follow-up and post-op ICU care for less than $8000. The equivalent cost in the USA would have been $50k minimum with ICU days costing another $9k-$15k per DAY, with additional costs for the anesthesiologists and for the surgeons.

Have you noticed how many Indian doctors there are in the USA? A lot of them were fully trained and board certified in India before even coming to the united states. A lot of Indians who go to the US for medical training (medical school, residency, fellowships) often come back to India to open their own hospitals and clinics.

Their is very little insurance hassle in India because there is very little insurance. Major med procedures are often paid for with cash. I don't know about the mortgage situation currently but more than ten years ago, mortgages were unheard of. You'd buy houses when you had the cash to afford one and most often had them built to your own specifications.

Re:Quality of Medical Care

[RandLS]

There is an entire market surrounding this that is beginning to emerge (or at least, some Indian states are attempting to start it). A "full package" will be offered to the US including round-trip airfair, hotel accomodations, and the service being performed....all for a fraction of the price in the insurance-heavy, litigious United States. With the entitlement society we live in here, it's no wonder things like this are possible elsewere in the world.

Re:Quality of Medical Care

[dotsbir]

Interestingly, the Etats-Unis has had this in place for a long time. Saudi Arabians and South Americans have long been coming to the U.S.A. for major surgical procedures. These people pay cash, rent out (or buy) entire hotels or apartment complexes for their entourage, keep flying back for follow-up care, and often purchase second (third, seventeenth...) homes in the area. This is very common not just in Los Angeles and Miami and Boston, but even places like Cleveland (but then again, they've got the Cleveland Clinic.) A lot of these places have been hit very badly by the changes in visa regulations limiting travel into the USA and have seen severe cashflow disruptions. I tried to find the link I read about the Cleveland Clinic, but can't right now. International patients like to come to the USA (warning tripod popup link ) but when they can't easily do it, Indian medical centers can easily jump up, especially since they have US trained doctors available too.

Re:Quality of Medical Care

[Anonymous Coward]

You'd buy houses when you had the cash to afford one and most often had them built to your own specifications.

This is something I really miss from India. Even though I've lived in the U.S.(midwest) for over 8 years now, I just can't get used to how similar and boring most of the houses look. In India, almost every house that gets built is an original design by an architect with the input of the builders. So, you would almost never find two similar houses in a neighborhood, let alone on the same street.

Re:Quality of Medical Care

[Anonymous Coward]

The quality of medical care varies with the facilities available in India. In cities, you'll find hospitals with facilities equivalent or better than the average in the US. In rural areas, the facilities are bare minimum. One thing that does stand out is that in India, medicine is still a "Profession" - with Doctors well respected and almost all of them kind and considerate and generous. Most of them have a charitable mentality. They generally are fairly to really well to do financially, but most charge very little or nothing to the poorer patients. There are also hospitals that perform plainly for charity. For example my uncle in south India got medical care and received a stent for a heart problem - for free - from a hospital with US trained surgeons. Another thing I must mention are the free eye clinics where eye surgery is performed for free by a large group of doctors that travel (the membership in the groups varies). They visit each city about in one to two years and perform over 1000 operations during each camp of about 2 weeks, all for free (and the glasses are free as well).

I am sorry to say in the US medicine has become more of a "Business" than a noble profession. This is not to say there aren't decidicated and kind medical professionals everywhere.

Re:Quality of Medical Care

[michael_cain]

A friend of mine's aunt ended up having open heart surgery for a valve replacement in Baroda India. She had it at a private surgicenter with excellent Indian U.S. trained physicians with follow-up and post-op ICU care for less than $8000. The equivalent cost in the USA would have been $50k minimum with ICU days costing another $9k-$15k per DAY, with additional costs for the anesthesiologists and for the surgeons.

Considering the local costs of living that are described elsewhere in these comments, is this so out of line? Those comments indicate that an upper-middle-class lifestyle costs about $12,000 per year over there. $8,000 is two-thirds of that. Suppose an upper-middle-class lifestyle in the US requires an income of $90,000 (some would suggest that the cost is higher than that). Two-thirds of that is $60,000, which is on the same order as what you cite as the expense in the US. The interesting difference appears to be the difference in the availability of insurance. Roughly 60% of the US population is covered by some form of health insurance, either private or provided by the government. What percentage of the Indian population is covered? Since someone with an income of $90,000 in the US can afford health insurance (barring cases with expense, chronic conditions, who can't buy private insurance at any price), I assume that someone making $12,000 in India can also afford health insurance.

Re:Quality of Medical Care

[rsidd]

Roughly 60% of the US population is covered by some form of health insurance, either private or provided by the government. What percentage of the Indian population is covered?

An increasing fraction of the middle class, very few if any of the poor. But many (most?) doctors and hospitals provide free treatment to the poor, and many doctors work part-time without charging at free hospitals (either government hospitals, or institutions like the Voluntary Health Services in Madras) in addition to their private practice.

Re:Quality of Medical Care

[Knish]

Can't remember where I read it, but do remember that I read last week, that "HEALTH CARE" will be outsourced to India in near future.

We all know how HMOs like to save cost and it is pretty evident that there are significant cost savings to be had by sending patients to India. If the Insurace comapny in USA tells you that you can get the surgery/procedure done (and a guarantee of the work is provided) in India and you pay nothing, NADA, Zilch. Or you can get the work done here in the US and it will cost you $1000 or more in the US. What would you choose?

I speak from experience as someone whose sister and brother-in-law are doctors in India.

Re:Quality of Medical Care

[michael_cain]

But many (most?) doctors and hospitals provide free treatment to the poor, and many doctors work part-time without charging at free hospitals (either government hospitals, or institutions like the Voluntary Health Services in Madras) in addition to their private practice.

Still trying to understand enough to have some sort of apples-to-apples comparison. Would this free care include something like the heart-valve replacement surgery originally mentioned? Certainly one of the reasons for the rapidly rising costs of health care in the US is the vast array of treatments that have become available. When my grandparents' knee cartilage wore out, the docs gave them a cane and aspirin. Should mine wear out one of these days, knee replacement is an option -- if my insurance covers it or I can afford it. In recent years, about 270,000 knee replacements were done each year in the US.

Re:Quality of Medical Care

[rsidd]

Still trying to understand enough to have some sort of apples-to-apples comparison.

I don't think an apples-to-apples comparison is possible between the world's only superpower and a developing country.

Would this free care include something like the heart-valve replacement surgery originally mentioned?

Something like, yes, and sometimes, yes. Surgeons are often willing to waive their fees in special needy cases. Other costs -- that's a different matter, but in many cases something gets worked out.

In many cases, they use equivalent and cheaper (and sometimes, arguably better) technology. For example, the Jaipur foot, an artificial limb that was developed for amputees, vastly cheaper than its equivalents in the west and immensely successful.

Re:Quality of Medical Care

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, I see a business ideas - Transfer US patients from expensive hospital to India, with Indian nurse to take care of.

Re:Quality of Medical Care

[Anonymous Coward]

after living in the us for 10 years,i feel safe knowing that if i am seriously sick i can go home to bangalore and get treated by the same doctors who treated me as a child for cheaper than my co pay here and better service than i can imagine.
more over i honbestly feel the doctors there are more educated and now all the laest machines are available locally so the care is the same or better there.

now i am comparing places like lennox hill hospital in new york to private hospitals in bangalore my hometown.

BTW: if you are sick,have no insurance, need serious treatment go to india, knee replacement is 5k against 50k here.take any cost here divide by 10 is the cost in india for medical treatment. just ask any indian for the recommendation of a top doctor and get treated now instead of after 6 months.

also consider a health spa like place where you can get ayurvedic and yoga based treatment to recover after major surgery for a few hundred dollars a month including food

already thousands of arabs are coming to india for "medical tourism" since after sept 11 arabs are not welcome in the west.

and the UK govt is planning to "outsource" its entire national health service waiting list to india.the indian govt decided that medical tourism can bring more than the 12 billion offshoring brings and is working to ramp up the number of qualified doctors fast to treat the whole world

also you may be interested to know that management expert peter drucker also is one among the few that conceded that india has the AIIMS in delhi that is considered the best medical school in the world.

i am predicting the entire western world will be sending patients to india especially where cost is a factor and insurance is limited to the rich.

it is disgusting to note the cost of medical care in the US is OUTRAGEOUS.

also point to note,medical care in india for the middle class and rich is affordable. for the poor it is not. however part of the hindu culture strongly involves respect for the human life and many doctors work on sundays for free in villages and also provide life saving operations for many patients. there re also walk in govt hospitals where care is free for the poor.doctors in rural india have "god: like status as they treat the poor for free.

the cost of prescription drugs is the us is CRIMINALLY EXPENSIVE.

Re:Dupe?

[tsunamifirestorm]

"I'm curious as to how the cost of living in India compares to that of the United States"
It says that generally India is worse off, because it says that even a white-collar job doesn't usually make enough to afford a similar quality of life as in America. However, jobs that are taken in from other countries can give more than enough income yet still be a bargain for the original country (e.g. the /.er who will program C++ for $3 an hour)

All About the Cost of Living

[kisrael]

$11,000 = a decent middle class life in India.

That's really what it all comes down to. I got that from the recent Wired article and this pretty interesting set of responses confirms it.

That's 1/4 of what I was making fresh out of school in 1996.

I guess I don't understand how in a "global economy", that kind of difference in the cost of living survives, and how it ties in with things like inflation and other economic factors.

Is it basically that there are SO many poor people in India, that that somehow keeps the costs of the basics down? And that the USA couldn't have a similar situation without that level of poverty?

Amazing. I wonder what the future of global living standards is going to look like.

Re:All About the Cost of Living

[Kenja]

"I guess I don't understand how in a "global economy", that kind of difference in the cost of living survives, and how it ties in with things like inflation and other economic factors."

Easy, its not a "global economy". If it where I could go to India and get a job paying 11k a year and live off that. However they dont allow US tech workers to work over there unless you get sponsored by an Indian copany. Thats a local, protectionist economy. Not that this is a bad thing, I just wish the US corps would stop trying to tell me that their outsourceing because of globilization rather then because they want a new summer home.

Re:All About the Cost of Living

[easter1916]

Take a class in economics. This is very simple stuff to understand. Why does the cost of living differ between NYC and, say, St. Louis? Same thing, less extreme.

Re:All About the Cost of Living

[FreshFunk510]

On the line of the other persons response about learning economics, another large factor is training.

Questions one should ask oneself: Why didn't this happen before? Why are we able to export jobs? Why don't we export jobs to other countries instead?

We didn't do this before for various reasons. I'm no expert but the simple answer is trade barriers but also supply/demand. India seems to have invested large amounts of money into training their people to do IT and call-center work.

This was their largest barrier to entry. With the advent of the internet and networking, we're able to move jobs in a more agile manner. We don't export our IT jobs to other countries because of their lack of IT expertise (although many countries seem to be catching up).

I imagine that the US would NOT find itself in a similar situation. While it is entirely possible you have to look at the history and facts (as well as recognize cause vs effect). India is trying to grow into a modernized country but the fact that their population is so big makes that a very difficult task. OTOH, Americans, on the average, enjoy a decent living so you could say we have a good head start. Now we could probably export our jobs until we start cutting down into bone, but I suspect that voters will do something before that happens.

Re:All About the Cost of Living

[__aanebg9627]

How does it survive? It doesn't! The work goes where there is a 'comparitive advantage', if the economic system is working correctly. Right now, India oddly enough has a 'comparative advantage' in educated work; its educated people have been severely under-employed compared to educated people in the U.S.. The reason things are shifting *now* is that the cost of transporting their work from one market to another has dropped immensely because of the internet. On the other hand, the work of the uneducated is largely manual labor, and the transportation costs of moving that work between markets has changed a lot less. (Besides, the products of the manual work have been protected in the U.S. for most of the last century. The U.S. *still* has trade restrictions on textiles!) A third thing is also going on -- the U.S. is being lent a lot of money from the rest of the world (esp. China and Japan). For this reason, the U.S. dollar is far, far higher than it should be. So you can adjust that cost-of-living figure somewhat for an overvalued dollar. Don't be surprised if, in a few years, the dollar has dropped so much that you see more like "$22,000 = a decent middle class life in India"

Re:All About the Cost of Living

[Tablizer]

The reason things are shifting *now* is that the cost of transporting their work from one market to another has dropped immensely because of the internet.

In a Planet-of-the-Apes-ending tone of voice:

Damned You DARPA, Tim Burners, and Al Gore! Damn You To Hell!

Re:All About the Cost of Living

[kisrael]

If they have access to OUR jobs, then give me access to THEIR cost of living

That's an interesting summary of it in your sig there.

I'm reminded hearing about some people who retire to Mexico. I wonder if you could do the same thing to India, or if there are barriers.

Re:All About the Cost of Living

[shreak]

You going to India and getting a job with an Indian company for 11k a year is like an Indian comming to America and getting a job for 60k a year.

Which has very little to do with outsourcing. That would be "Insourceing" I guess.

It's not easy for an Indian to come to the USA and get a job. We have enough people looking for jobs right now, no thanks. The same is true in India. They don't need you moveing to India, takeing a job from one of the millions of Indians who want to work and whineing about crappy pay.

Outsourceing is about finding a cheap resource somewhere non-local. India doesn't have a need to outsource to the USA because we don't have a labor force they need at a price they want.

If you want to talk about labor moves that arn't outsourceing, try protectionist actions that are ostensibly created to save jobs but CAUSE jobs to move out of the USA.

Sugar tariffs and limits on imported sugar that protect sugar industry employees but cause domestic candy manufacturers to move to Canada and elsewhere because then they are allowed to buy cheaper sugar from abroad. The steel and automotive industry have a similar relationship.

Sucks to be effected. The bottom line is to stay nimble. Keep your eye on the horizon and don't load up on debt you can't pay off when the axe falls.

=Shreak

Re:All About the Cost of Living

[betis70]

>>that kind of difference in the cost of living survives,

Same way I survived on 15K a year living in New Mexico, going from archaeology contract job to contract job. $300 a month apartment, maybe $200-300 a month food, $300 a month gas & car upkeep, and I could still save a little. If it wasn't for my debt burden from school, I would still be doing that. And maybe be able to buy a house right now.

You cut out all the extraneous shit, get rid of your debt, live in a place that costs little money for the basics, and you survive.

But you have to be able to live in the low cost of living places--you need to be creative to keep your sanity (at times) because there often ain't a whole lot to do there.

Re:All About the Cost of Living

[Anonymous Coward]

You going to India and getting a job with an Indian company for 11k a year is like an Indian comming to America and getting a job for 60k a year.

comming? Which has very little to do with outsourcing. That would be "Insourceing" I guess.

Habib, drop the "e" then add "ing" It's not easy for an Indian to come to the USA and get a job.

especially when they can only write and speak Indiaglish.

We have enough people looking for jobs right now, no thanks. The same is true in India. They don't need you moveing to India, takeing a job from one of the millions of Indians who want to work and whineing about crappy pay.

drop the 'e' and and 'ing' apu. Maybe then we will believe you are from the US Outsourceing is about finding a cheap resource somewhere non-local. India doesn't have a need to outsource to the USA because we don't have a labor force they need at a price they want.

drop the e...aww never mind. It has nothing to do about a price that the Indian companies want. It has to do with the price the US companies want from India. There are Americans who would move to India and work for 12k there. The Indian government wont allow it.

If you want to talk about labor moves that arn't outsourceing, try protectionist actions that are ostensibly created to save jobs but CAUSE jobs to move out of the USA.

wrong again apu! Sucks to be effected. The bottom line is to stay nimble. Keep your eye on the horizon and don't load up on debt you can't pay off when the axe falls.

the axe will fall on you habib, when the Americans decide they wont put up with this trash anymore.

Re:All About the Cost of Living

[kisrael]

But you have to be able to live in the low cost of living places--you need to be creative to keep your sanity (at times) because there often ain't a whole lot to do there.

I guess the trick is finding some place near to where people will pay you a lot but isolated enough that things are still cheap, try to play Maxwell's Demon to defy the usual high salary / high cost of living tie-in.

That's kind of a microcosm of what India has just started being able to do...w/ telepresence, they can stick arond where it's cheap but "be" where the salaries are better.

you know, a lot of offshore companies end up sending people onshore to help coordinate...the USA must seem hyper-expensive to these people, I wonder if they have to live on their India salaries here, or if there's a cost of living adjustment, or what.

Re:All About the Cost of Living

[beakburke]

If they all get our jobs though, they will have OUR cost of living

Re:All About the Cost of Living

[Anonymous Coward]

However they dont allow US tech workers to work over there unless you get sponsored by an Indian copany. Thats a local, protectionist economy.

Only if you call US economy similarly "local, protectionist". One of few areas where things are different is EU, and there only for citizens of member states (ie. bigger locale; only for club members etc). That is, they don't allow indian workers to just move in to US of A either; companies have to go through painful exercise of proving absolute necessity of hiring a foreigner. And it IS painful; having had to do paperwork for that.

Re:All About the Cost of Living

[Anonymous Coward]

but I suspect that voters will do something before that happens.

I doubt seriously voters have much to do with this. What will swing the pendulum back a bit are just normal things; entropy (wages in India rising) and companies finally critically evaluating success (or more often, lack thereof) of offshoring projects. See, there are STILL car assembly jobs in USA; there are still (some) local clothing companies. Neither industry is as big as it used to be; but neither went into extinction. Plus I'm confident that software industry is unlike those 2 industries, being more resilient to external "leaks"... so I doubt programming jobs will be even as scarce as car factory worker jobs.

What most people here don't realize, however, is that offshoring was part of a double-whammy. Dotcom days aren't going to return in near future, independent of what happens to offshoring. Thus there's lots of unwarranted pessimism in the air.

Re:All About the Cost of Living

[RalphSlate]

Yes, that's excactly it.

Here are the "advantages" that India has over the US.

1) A lot of poor people and no social programs supporting them. Think of how much of your paycheck goes to Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, and other social programs. And think of how much of your employer's payroll taxes go to that stuff too. And then think about all the other taxes you pay to support people who aren't employed at livable wages. If your pay was cut by that amount, and your employers taxes were cut by that amount, you'd be in exactly the same place but making 30% less. We are no longer in a position to choose to have social programs. Competition from abroad is dictating that we eliminate all of them.

2) The servants. I think I could work harder if I could pay someone $35/month to do all my personal work. But having servants, especially low-paid servants, is frowned upon here in the US, and people won't generally work for so little since the government supports them at a much higher level. But if we eliminate our social programs, then maybe people will be willing to be our servants once again.

3) Medical. It sounds like the care you get in India is cheaper, but you get less too. People in this country need to ask some ethical questions, for example, "how much should be spent to save a life". When someone spends $300k to keep their 90 year old grandmother alive for an extra month, perhaps that is excessive. So we may have to make some hard choices (for example, should we spend a couple hundred thousand saving your baby that is born 2 months premature) in order to get our costs in line with India. In essence, we should not save the lives of anyone not capable of being a productive member of society. Any country that does will have higher costs.

But here's the insidious problem with this all. Capitalism is designed to LOWER costs. That means paying the least amount of benefits possible. Since people in other countries have it far worse than we do, the only way we can compete is to lower our benefits to their level. We can't rely on that "productivity" factor because it is no longer US Corporations vs. Foreign Corporations -- it's US Corporations against the workers that cost the most. Any innovation is immediately shared with the low-cost workers, and the benefit is negated.

So in other words, the only way to compete with India is to become exactly like India, or to get India to be exactly like us. But the latter won't work, because our corporations will just move the work to some other country. That means the former will be the more likely outcome.

Is everyone comfortable with that?

Re:All About the Cost of Living

[shreak]

I neglected to run my post through the spell checker so I guess it serves me right that I'd get a bucket full of AC flamebait.

As to being from the US or India, my poor spelling (and grammar for that matter) should have been a dead giveaway. Here's another hint: Apu would kick my ass in US history Jeopardy.

And the axe has already fallen on you Mr AC. You're so afraid of your own shadow that you won't post under your real account. Don't bother to reply since I could never be sure it's really you.

=Shreak

Re:All About the Cost of Living

[Anonymous Coward]

It's actually pretty gosh darned complicated. Combine the US's on-going abuse of the dollar's status as the world reserve currency, years of economic growth fueled by abundant natural resources (now becoming depleted), wreckless abandon in expenditures on real estate and toys, substiting litigation for personal accountability and a hundred other subtle ways of living on credit, living beyond our means, and you find that the high cost of living in the United States is driven by an unsustainable lifestyle. India hasn't had those avantages or opportunities, so things cost less. Things will eventually cost less in the US as well, but before that we will make tens, maybe hundreds of millions of Americans very unhappy. Heck, maybe we'll even have a revolution and shoot the people who made the most off of the American bubble. God bless the American Way.

Re:All About the Cost of Living

[FreshFunk510]

I think voters have a lot to do with this. Politicians are very malleable when it comes to votes and if all the voters are losing their jobs you can bet it will find its place in politics.

With that said, I think there is a second thing to consider. While votes do matter, we should look at the historical precedent. We lost agricultural jobs, manufacturing jobs, textile jobs, etc. And yet the "voter factor" didn't play into it as much. Why? Because people got jobs in other fields and weren't left disgruntled. I imagine the same could happen with this.

Re:All About the Cost of Living

[Anonymous Coward]

There are a lot of people who say that "India has invested a lot of money in training its people on IT skills". This is actually not quite accurate. The government hugely subsidizes education, but the truth of the matter is that there is a MASSIVE private education industry. One of the biggest outfits is a private firm called "NIIT" (Nat. Inst. of Inf. Technology) - think Devry with a core focus on IT and nothing else. Apart from the big boys there are tons and tons and tons of little companies that survive on the IT training industry.

The vast majority of IT staffers from India don't have engg degrees. They enroll in these classes and find jobs and work hard afterwards.

Re:All About the Cost of Living

[FreshFunk510]

"India has invested a lot of money in training its people on IT skills". This is actually not quite accurate. The government hugely subsidizes education, but the truth of the matter is that there is a MASSIVE private education industry.

Good to know. But if it's India's private industries, and not the govt, doesn't that still qualify as "India investing in IT"?

Re:All About the Cost of Living

[_ph1ux_]

You know why some things are so expensive in the US?

Because we will pay it, not because it actually *Costs* that much.

The whole supply chain has been artificially inflated in the US. This becomes readily apparent if you spend any amount of time in another country.

You will see that by desiring more money and making things cost more - you are not actualyl increasing the value of any good or service, in fact you are decreasing it. By making the root of the chain cost more to perform (e.g. picking/growing food) thereby causing it to be worth less - you cause the whole system to cost more.

Re:All About the Cost of Living

[Anonymous Coward]

I beg to differ. India is a socialist country and there are many entitlements that are offered to the poor. Even if individual paychecks do not go to the equivalent of FICA, there are systems in place that limit the amount of affluence that people can achieve. Many jobs provide free or subsidised housing. For example, the Indian Railways (largest employer in the world) provides housing for most employees. There is a ration card system that provides subsidised rice and pulses to card holders (who are usually poor). Vendors (such as in the vegetable market) will routinely quote lower prices if you look like a poor person -- and believe me that is not difficult to discern. Doctors provide free service routinely to poor people.

Yes, labour is cheap, but all these entitlements also end up contributing to low income and limit the amount of discretion that individuals have in leading their lives.

Capitalism is designed to maximise shareholder returns. Capitalism never lowers prices in a monopolistic or oligarchist situation. This means that no corporation is beholden to a social responsibility. The fact that some corporations assume a social responsibility may be classified as a marketing expense. The current economic policy in the U.S is to allow increase of productivity even if there is widespread job loss. This is because increases in productivity leads to increases in the standard of living, even if everyone does not benefit from it.

The fact that some people suffer when change occurs is irrelevant to the economy, but not irrelevant to the political status quo. People who are ingenious will adapt through periods of change, and less capable workers will have to settle for worse. One aspect of capitalism that is often ignored is that people are also entities that offer services to the marketplace by way of their skills, and if they are not able to compete through periods of change, there must be repercussions in their standard of living.

One may of course ask the question -- How do you tell a 50 yr old mill worker that he has to compete in the marketplace? But such questions are irrelevant to economic policy in a purely capitalistic system. They are however, very relevant to a democracy, assuming we live in one. Remember, a higher average standard of living does not necessarily mean a happier population -- especially when viewed in relation to better times in terms of job satisfaction and ability to use the skills you were trained for. One should never equate the ability to buy more with happiness.

Re:All About the Cost of Living

[Anonymous Coward]

"Insourceing"

Care to follow your own advice?

"especially"

Try a capital letter at the beginning of each sentence.

"drop the 'e' and and 'ing' apu."

I think you meant "and add". "Apu", as a proper noun, deserves a capital letter.

"nothing to do about a price"

Perhaps you meant "nothing to do with the price"?

"The Indian government wont allow it."

That's not true, as has been shown many times on this very site. You need an apostrophe in "won't".

Thankyou for showing why stupid Americans shouldn't try to lecture other people on the subject of English usage.

Re:All About the Cost of Living

[BigBadBri]

give me 10,000 per year and a job in India - I'll be happy.

You don't seem to realise that not everyone wants the western life - some of us don't care for McBonalds, and would rather eat local food.

Kandahar's my ideal - if anyone wants a network guru that can program a bit and do databases in Kandahar - please reply.

Re:All About the Cost of Living

[RalphSlate]

Yes, but what's the end game here? It would appear that it would involve one group of insanely wealthy people, and the rest of the people living on sustenance wages.

We're all competing as fiercely as ever. People who can't compete are being left far, far behind. Those that can compete advance, but must always watch their backs.

Is that such a good thing? Won't most of us eventually become the equivalent of the 50-year old mill worker? Is that what life's about? And why is this all inevitable? Up until recent history, there was not free movement of jobs so this could occur, and people didn't seem to be that bad off. I suppose if you compare the rest of the world to the US that isn't a true statement, but if we discover intelligent life on Mars and everyone there has the equivalent of 10 SUV's, 50 houses, and limitless wealth, is the US suddenly a poor nation?

Is it such a good thing that our economy is progressing to the point where only the best and brightest thrive, and the rest suffer? Is every citizen of the US supposed to have what it takes to earn a PhD so they can ride the crest of the career wave? Isn't a diverse job base much more sustainable, where jobs with livable wages exist for those who are very talented, but also for those who aren't?

By the way, the subsidies you mention in India are, by US standards, below abject poverty. If the US cut its social programs so that the poor were merely guaranteed a bowl of rice and a doctor checkup, there would probably be rioting. It's a lot harder to lose something than it is to never have it. So although India has such programs, they pale in comparison to what is offered in the US.

Re:All About the Cost of Living

[Anonymous Coward]

>>However they dont allow US tech workers to work over there unless you get sponsored by an Indian copany.

exactly the same way as US, dude.

Re:All About the Cost of Living

[Anonymous Coward]

That comment almost made me vomit. Are you really as self-centred and uncaring as that, or are you just trolling?

Re:All About the Cost of Living

[vivian]

should we spend a couple hundred thousand saving your baby that is born 2 months premature

Having been a 3 month & 1 week premature baby, I say the answer to this is definitely yes. I was fortunate in that I had a good system to look after me, so I didn't end up blind ( from poor oxygen regulation) or have any number of other problems associated with such an early birth.
I have paid a *lot* more than that in taxes over the years, so I feel my debt to society is already paid off, with hopefully quite a bit more to be squeezed out of me by the govornment should some of my current projects pay off.

Re:All About the Cost of Living

[danila]

I guess I don't understand how in a "global economy", that kind of difference in the cost of living survives
The main reason is no free movement of people across borders. If every Indian could legally come to the USA, EU, Japan, Australia or any other place and try to work/live there, you would have great turmoil for a couple of years and then the standards would equalise.

As it is, though, most Indians can't move abroad a?? can't find a job (a decent one) in India, so they agree to work for peanuts. This drives the costs of locally produced goods and services down. Of course, the computer would cost you the same everywhere, but everything labour-intensive would be dirt cheap.

Re:All About the Cost of Living

[Triskele]

Ye gods, you americans go on about how much of your pay packet goes on social and medical security. Yet from a European perspective you have bugger all protection. Even in England which is nowhere near as good as Sweden or other European countries we have more holiday, better medical, better unemployment. Yet we can compete with you guys no problem.

Nitpick on the cricket

[rsidd]

The upcoming India-Pakistan series is by no means "the first time ever". The two countries played each other regularly until the 1980s; India last visited Pakistan in 1989, and since then Pakistan visited India once, in 1998-99. They have also met at other tournaments including the world cups.

Re:Nitpick on the cricket

[Anonymous Coward]

How on earth is correcting an error in the article off-topic?

Re:Nitpick on the cricket

[rsidd]

Not only that, but to whoever modded it offtopic: it's no more offtopic than communism, to which much verbiage and many modpoints are currently being devoted. In fact, cricket is arguably much more central to a typical Indian's worldview, to India-Pakistan relations and diplomacy, and many other things.

Re:Nitpick on the cricket

[Anonymous Coward]

Yup--Pakistan visited India in early June, 1999. I happened to be visiting myself India at the time. As an American girl who didn't understand what a big deal this was, I was surprised when people took to the streets, and near-riots broke out when India won! :)

Re:Nitpick on the cricket

[rsidd]

June, 1999 and India won? I think you'd be thinking of the world cup, which was held in England in June (and indeed India beat Pakistan on June 8 there). Pakistan visited India in January-February, 1999, and the two-match series was drawn (one win each). And yup, this post is most definitely offtopic.

Culteral Blunders

[Like2Byte]

I've got a friend over from New Zealand. I'm American. We're both blond and blue eyed of average build. I thought it would be funny one day to introduce him to some people but instead of telling them he's from New Zealand I said he was from Australia.

The introduction went like this:

Carl(me): "Everyone, this is Jansen. He's from Australia."

Jansen: "Everyone, this is Carl. He's from Mexico."

(I still get a kick out of that story.)

Re:Culteral Blunders

[easter1916]

That's so funny! Because they wouldn't understand the difference in accents, right? Ha ha ha! You're funny!

Re:Culteral Blunders

[Anonymous Coward]

That anecdote is absolutely breathtakingly boring. It hits the reader with a double whammy -- first when you get to the 'he's from Mexico' line and realize that there is no joke, and then when you get to the 'still get a kick' line and realize the poster really is _just that lame_.

I salute you, sir. You have raised the bar for everyone.

Re:Culteral Blunders

[cybermace5]

This just goes to show that even the most mundane anecdote becomes funny if someone named "Carl" is in it.

Re:Culteral Blunders

[Anonymous Coward]

Huh, when was Mexico a colony of the UK?

And their primary language English?

And part of the 'West' rather than a third-world country (in the original intention of the word, the political alliance one)?

And most of their population NOT of indigenous origin?

There is no comparison between Mexico and the US, but NZ and AUS share *some* things in common.

A more approriate introduction would be "This is Carl, he is from Canada".

Re:Enjoy it while you can..

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, Tancredo is about taking back the country.

A friend of mine met a nice man in college, got married, had a baby on the way. He was from Brazil. He made the mistake of returning to Brazil for a short visit (he was still a student, and was applying for citizenship) and was not allowed back in the country for almost seven months - he arrived back the day before my friend had labor induced because she was weeks overdue.

My friend appealed to Tancredo to please help her husband return to the country so he could help support her (support is not just financial, you know) but Tancredo didn't listen. Campbell was kind enough to help her, though, and got her husband back to the US and helped with obtaining citizenship so he could help support the family he started.

Tancredo's method would have produced nothing but a welfare mom.

See? Trickle down works

[dreamchaser]

I grew up in a very poor village. My father made $10 per month as a schoolteacher. One bicycle was our only family transport. I went to college as a scholarship student. I did well in my exams, so the government paid for my education. Now I own two houses, and the workers I hired to build both of them had no other work, so that helped bring money into my village. My father and mother live in a house I built, too. I rent out one of the houses I own now and live in the other one. The money I earn spreads through the economy. Fathers work at better jobs because of my spending and can keep their children in school instead of having them go out to work early

And that is exactly how supply side ('trickle down') economics worked. It worked in the 80's and it's starting to work now, too.

It is good to see that some good is coming out of off shore outsourcing, at least.

Of course, this will get modded down because libertarian or conservative views get an automatic -1 (Not Liberal) here most of the time ;)

Re:See? Trickle down works

[javiercero]

Yup 3 million jobs lost in the past 3 years, your "trickle down" politics are working wonderfully!

Congrtulations keep up the good job!

Re:See? Trickle down works

[Sebastopol]

This is how trickle down is supposed to work. One could argue the trickle down will stop working in India for the same reason it failed in the 80s: greed --

CEOs got tax breaks and used the money for huge bonuses, then hired illegal immigrants to build their multi-million dollar heated pools for their chalets in Colorado -- and then rather than investing in the community, closed factories and moved overseas to boost profits and increase bonuses.

That's why today we have a stock market boom and increasing unemployment. From my liberal viewpoint, tax increases boosted the economy by balancing the budget, stabilizing the prime rate, and reversing the greed that broke the trickle-down theory.

Now I'll get a: "-1 (Anti-Reagan)" ;-)

Re:See? Trickle down works

[Bob(TM)]

Sure; "trickle down" economics can work. However, it's naive to assume it works everywhere and in every condition.

To work, there has to be a positive pressure for dispersement on the receiver of wealth - it has to be in their best interest to disperse concentrated wealth.

The desire for wealth is not a very good motivator to disperse wealth.

Re:See? Trickle down works

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, if it actually worked in the US, then your argument would be valid. Unfortunately, since it didn't, and still isn't now (your troll post notwithstanding), you just make yourself look like a neocon parrot, regurgitating the party line like a good sheep should.

Re:See? Trickle down works

[happyfrogcow]

It would work, but remember the statistic that says something like "10% of the population controls 90% of the wealth" (real stats may vary, but it's something like that). That 90% of the wealth is tied up in personal accounts making more money for it's master. A litre of that might be diffused into the atmosphere and trickle down to the local economies. The only work trickle down economics did in the 80s was shift the load to the 90s and beyond. Middle/Upper middle class spent while corporate leaders reaped the benefits. Their pockets are lined with gold and silver still.

I agree that it *could* work, but the wealth of the top 10% is stagnant and won't trickle anywhere.

Re:See? Trickle down works

[spun]

Oh, god, that tired old cliche. Libertarian views get modded down here? What version of slashdot do you read? Conservatives get modded down when they are morons, but Libertarians never get modded down. 4 out of 5 slashdotters is probably libertarian leaning.

And 'Voodoo Economics,' a.k.a. trickle down, never works. It didn't work here. It isn't working now, not here, not there. Look at our recovery. All the money is going to the rich. We aren't even making new jobs fast enough to keep up with population growth. There may be a lot of poor people in India, but I bet they don't have nearly the income and wealth disparity that we have. Rich people in this country long ago got so rich that trickle down can't possibly work. Rich people just don't spend extra money building up the local economy any more.

Smart people get modded up here all the time, whether they are liberal, libertarian, or conservative. In fact, those labels are tired and worn out, they don't accurately describe most people nowadays. There is more to politics than left and right. People who try to get the rest of us to divide up and fight each other just want to take advantage of the chaos to stay on top.

Re:See? Trickle down works

[colmore]

Actualy, you've just duck seasoned yourself: seems like over here, the "trickle down" benefits are going to India.

* I'm trying really hard to coin a new phrase: to duck season: v. to force an opponent to make your argument for you, from the classic Warner Brother's cartoons. "Duck Season!" "Wabbit Season!" etc.

Re:See? Trickle down works

[skedastik]

Trickle down economics did not work during the Reagan era, and does not work now. Cutting the top tax rate does not lead to economic growth, income growth, wage growth... and sure as fuck doesn't create jobs. Data collected from the last 40 years refutes the idea that cutting the taxes of the richest americans will improve economic standing. It only helps the rich. The average american does not get more wealth. Compare the tax cuts with changes in unemployment, hourly wage growth, income growth, and the GDP growth rate. Can't refute those results.

Re:See? Trickle down works

[Anonymous Coward]

3 million jobs lost to a recession started during the Clinton administration and exacerbated by terrorist attacks, you mean. Spurious and illogical, your statement is, yes?

Re:See? Trickle down works

[Qzukk]

And that is exactly how supply side ('trickle down') economics worked.

Maybe trickle down would work better in the US if we didn't have all that money vanishing back into the government. Would also work better if companies wouldn't be hoarding it (how many billions does microsoft have in non-circulating cash reserves?) It would work even better if people didn't pretend that putting the money in savings at the bank somehow "creates" money through loans (which only create debt). It would work miracles if that government-sanctioned pyramid scheme we call the stock market was overhauled (the money you put in rarely goes to the company you're investing in, instead it goes to fatten some investor's retirement).

So yeah, in a poor, communist country where you can save someone from starvation by hiring them on as a live in servant for just over a dollar a day, trickle down works pretty good. I'd love to see someone try that in the US, with or without illegal immigrants filling the position.

(Of course, if you read the part of the interview that talks about the company stores and McDonalds, you'd realize that the most of that money is trickling is back into the company's pocket, hardly conducive to your argument supporting it)

Re:See? Trickle down works

[Anonymous Coward]

Butt Nugget... he said "the 80s". And It's "trickle down economics"

Re:See? Trickle down works

[spaceman harris]

I'm not sure that that story illustrates Trickle Down economics, or any sort of macroeconomic theory.

Trickle Down is also known as "supply side", money is spent by the government to give to industry or investors so that the economy will grow, either through tax-cuts, spending or subsidy. The instance that is alluded to here is fiscal policy under Reagan in the 80s, where money was spent on weapons, tax cuts for investors. The goal is to increase the supply of production

The flip side is "demand side economics", this is classic Keynesian policy where money is put in the hands of consumers through pension payments, government services, entitlements or by creating state companies to give out jobs (ie the Hoover Dam). This is used in lots of places, but Keynes' theories were based on Roosevelt in the 30s.

This story actually seems more indicative of demand side economics, or "trickle up" economics.

But let me guess... you don't care.

India needs a little of both these policies, but promarily it needs to focus on reducing corruption, encouraging fair Foreign Direct Investment and a good education system. All of which are aided through the outsourcing described in the article.

Re:See? Trickle down works

[theghost]

Except for 2 teeny-tiny problems:

1) It's not working. How can it be considered a success of supply-side economics if our government helps out businesses and the economic improvement happens in their economy, while at the same time harming our economy?

2) That is not an example of supply-side economics at work. The Indian govt subsidized his education, providing him with the skills to get a job that came from elsewhere. The Indian govt did not give the company that hired him a fat tax break. They built up their labor force and businesses took advantage of it. They gave money to the consumers (in the form of scholarships) and it helped their economy - demand-side economics at work!

You should have been modded down for being -1 (Wrong).

Re:See? Trickle down works

[Anonymous Coward]

Why the fuck people that aren't rich are proponents of "trickle down" economics is just beyond me, because the only people it benefits are the rich.

Re:See? Trickle down works

[nomadic]

Of course, this will get modded down because libertarian or conservative views get an automatic -1 (Not Liberal) here most of the time ;)

Are you on crack? Slashdot is overwhelmingly libertarian. You'd have to be on day three of an alcohol-assisted LSD trip to even ENTERTAIN the idea that it's otherwise.

Re:See? Trickle down works

[Anonymous Coward]

And that is exactly how supply side ('trickle down') economics worked. It worked in the 80's and it's starting to work now, too.

Except that it didn't work all that well during era of Reaganomics... it did accumulate nice debt for USA, but economically "rich getting richer" wasn't the key for recovery. Parts of tax cuts for middle class helped a bit; but mostly it was due to fairly normal economic cycle. Reagan was lucky enough (same as Clinton, btw) to rule during upswing of economy.

Reagan was one lucky b-movie actor, all in all; he also got credit for collapsing Soviet Union, by alleged "clever plan" of outspending it in arms race. Fact is, Reagan wanted to spend more money fearing Soviet power (which was, it was later found out, house of cards); not because he thought that'd collapse the empire (he was thinking USA was _behind_ in arms race... thanks to faulty data CIA had given, which was based on corrupt data Soviet officials had created for their internal propaganda... amazing!) And his administration was pretty surprised when facade fell down. And then history revisionists started building myth of a "plan to outspend Soviets and bring their empire down". Clever story; albeit not really strongly based on reality.

In case of India it sounds like system is based on slightly different mechanism, though; basically expanding relative size of middle class and perhaps increasing wealth of existing middle class... and that has better chance of success; esp. since it's not based on faulty assumption of bliss of tax cuts for highest tax brackets, not being funded by banks lending money for gov't to essentially give "back" to more affluent citizens.

Re:See? Trickle down works

[Nept]

yea, but now it's trickling down internationally and not domestically. So yes, trickle down is working, but is this how we want it to work?

Apparently Bush thinks so. His idea is that in the long term this will be good for the US.

Re:See? Trickle down works

[overunderunderdone]

That 90% of the wealth is tied up in personal accounts making more money for it's master.

Exactly how does it make money for it's master though? A bank doesn't pay you interest on your money for the privilege of storing it in a vault - it DOES SOMETHING with it. If it is in a "personal account" it is being lent back out to someone who is doing something with it (starting a business, hiring employees, buying a home). This is true of the worst case scenario where the "master" is just parking it in a bank account.

The wealth of the top 10% is NOT stagnant, it is almost all INVESTED in one way or another almost all of which involve employing people at one or more points along the line. Of course the whole point of an investment is that the investor is hoping for a greater return - so after employing a bunch of people at the end of the day the rich guy is even richer. Of course as a whole the top 10% may be so much richer from the investments (which employed everyone else) that they get an even BIGGER share than the 90% they (purportedly) started out with. So the "income gap" widens even while *everyone* is doing better. One alternative could be to take all their money and thus wiping out the jobs they would have created making *everyone* poorer BUT there would be no "income gap" to complain about.

Perhaps having a lower economy but less inequality would be worth it if that 10% was a permanent over-class. But the fact is that there is tremendous social mobility both up and down the income ladder. About a third of the top quintile changes over the course of a decade, about half of the top 1% changes. Over the course of a generation the percentage of change is of course much higher. VERY few of the richest 1% (10% or 20%) stay in that niche over the course of their life. Even fewer, despite stereotypes, inherit their position in life or succeed in passing it on to their children. There are of course plenty of examples of people that DO but despite their visibility they are not typical.

Re:See? Trickle down works

[ostiguy]

They stopped investing in the community because people thought, for example, luxury taxes were a good idea. The upper class stopped buying boats and the yacht builders in Maine and Massachusetts got wiped out.

Re:See? Trickle down works

[Sebastopol]

The luxury tax was introduced in 92 and had a 10 year lifespan, reducing each year. It had nothing to do with the 80s. And it did nothing to stop people from buying luxury items throughout the 90s.

Recall that a 15% luxury tax on a $100k car for someone who makes 10 million a year isn't going to stop them from buying.

Also, what yacht builders got wiped out? That's news to me. I recall plenty of doom-and-gloom predictions, but rich folk continued to indulge.

Not investing in the community means hiring illegal immigrants to wash toilets for $.25 an hour rather than $5.75 to pay someone in the unemployment line. (If you want to debate living wage, I'm up for it! ;-)

Re:See? Trickle down works

[Teckla]

And that is exactly how supply side ('trickle down') economics worked. It worked in the 80's and it's starting to work now, too.

It is good to see that some good is coming out of off shore outsourcing, at least.

Of course, this will get modded down because libertarian or conservative views get an automatic -1 (Not Liberal) here most of the time ;)

I'm glad supply side ("trickle down") economics is working so well for India. Do you think the American government might do something for the shrinking American middle class next? Or has the American government decided that their new role in the world is to help everyone but American citizens?

-Teckla

Re:See? Trickle down works

[dreamchaser]

First of all, the Government should have little to no say over where jobs go; that's what free markets are all about. Second, the middle class is not shrinking. You throw that red herring out without any citations.

The only thing that caused poverty to grow over the last few decades was the welfare system. You get what you pay for. When you pay people to not work, you get more of it.

Re:See? Trickle down works

[Anonymous Coward]

Trickle down is great in theory, but it does not work in practice. When are people going to finally admit this to themselves? It does not work because there is no altruism amongst the rich (they didnt get rich by spending their money). They just grab the money and run (as evidenced by the current attitude amongst this countries CEO's to maximize "their personal" profits instead of the corps profits). The whole concept of "trickle-down" economics is so idealistic I am amazed it came from the conservative bunch in this country. (by the way being "a conservative" in America is hugely different than being a "conservative" person). It's this current trend of conservatives (the group) to never admit that they can make a mistake that has gotten us in this mess. They will keep on trying to make trickle-down work until they are all living on the streets in the abject poverty they are so desperatley trying to avoid. Unless off course some patriotic soul finally slaps them down and makes them realize their blunder. Remember these are the sheeple we love to put down, they cant do anything without being told first. This is off topic but I pose a question here, lately it seems that EVERY republican I come in contact with is absolutely miserable with their lives. Has anyone else noticed this? Are these uber-depressed people even qualified to select a president?

Re:See? Trickle down works

[Anonymous Coward]

Someone mod this up to +5. If anyone doesnt think that the wealthy dont get together to try and screw over the non-wealthy are living in a dream. Its been going on since the beginning of civilization.

Re:See? Trickle down works

[Anonymous Coward]

a bed with a mosquito cover made of wood and had carved in those days cost 50 cents.

my grandfather made 100 rupees a month in those times and he got a bed then for 15 rupees its been 30 years and two houses later that bed is still used.

Re:See? Trickle down works

[bgspence]

Trickle down doesn't work because of all the sponges at the top!

Re:See? Trickle down works

[General Winter]

Also, what yacht builders got wiped out? That's
news to me. I recall plenty of doom-and-gloom
predictions, but rich folk continued to indulge.

The rich avoided paying the luxury tax by buying
Italian-made yachts in Italy. This hurt U.S.
yacht manufacturers and cost U.S. jobs.

GW

Re:See? Trickle down works

[adamfranco]

What really gets money into the economy? Give money to poor people who are going to spend it within a few months (or days) on basic necessities. Giving tax breaks to the rich just gives them more money to hoard.

Re:See? Trickle down works

[danila]

I often wonder, why Slashdot doesn't have a -1 (Modappeal) moderation, like they have at Plastic.com...

Of course, now I can expect to get a "-1 (Offtopic)". :)

Do you know where your source code comes from?

[Kunta Kinte]

Several points...

(i) Do you know where the code you use everyday comes from? That is, how do you know how much and at what rates Far-Easterners contribute to open-source? Should every project carry the nationality of the core developers?

(ii) Poorer countries have very limited access to the internet. Something very needed for the research and communication needed for building and managing an open-source project. I had this problem with my native home.

(iii) You need to have your basic needs comfortably taken care of before you can take time to develop software for free. That's true for any person anywhere I think, and very important if you're building a non-trivial project. I have this problem now.

(iv) Language differences may also hinder these projects.

Re:Do you know where your source code comes from?

[Orien]

You need to have your basic needs comfortably taken care of before you can take time to develop software for free...I have this problem now.

Somehow I would be willing to bet that if you added up all the time you spent reading this interview, reading all the posts, and formulating and posting your response, you would have enough time to have pounded out quite a few lines of open source code. I hate the "I don't have time" line. We make time for what we want to do. Is coding any better of a recreation activity then posting on /.? Not really, it's your choice how you spend your time, but don't try to say you don't have time to code if you DO have time to surf the internet. That comes down to personal priority.

Unless of course you are getting paid to post on /. in which case your point was valid :)

As an Indian

[Srividya]

I have doubts. Would you come to me to work with me in Tirupathi? Many of my assosciates are unpaid. Forgive me but I do not get the impression that Americans would choose to work for no pay unless they are found to be excellent. And there are many other differences here, we have no wide open forests, mainly just people.

However we would of course welcome you!

Re:Question still unanswered....

[Anonymous Coward]

Somehow I think describing a bindi as the dot in dot com is going to piss off a lot more than Ganesa.

To the grandparent: it's friggin jewelry, basically. It has a number of religious significances. Try explaining what a tie means some time to a Martian, and see how far you get.

Re:Question still unanswered....

[FooGoo]

Stolen from a website:
THE HOLY dot -- chandlo or bindi -- is auspicious makeup worn by young Hindu girls and women on their foreheads.

Bindi is derived from bindu, the Sanskrit word for a dot or a point.

The positioning of the bindi itself is significant. The area between the eyebrows is known to be the seat of latent wisdom. It is said to control the various levels of concentration attained through meditation. It signifies the mystic third eye.

The bindi, normally a vermilion mark, has a religious significance and is a visible sign of a person belonging to the Hindu religion.

A bindi also denotes female energy and is believed to protect women and their husbands.

Traditionally a symbol of marriage, it has now become a decorative item and is worn today by unmarried girls and women of other religions as well.

For a Hindu bride, the red colour of her bindi is supposed to promise prosperity for the home she is entering.

The mark makes her the preserver of the family's welfare and offspring. It is a symbol of auspiciousness, good fortune and festivity.

Significantly, when an Indian woman becomes a widow, she has to stop wearing this mark.

Myth is that the bindi protects the wearer from the bad eye of people but today the religious significance of the bindi is largely forgotten and it is worn as a fashion accessory.

The old, traditional bindi, kumkum, has been largely replaced by the "sticker-bindi".

Made of felt, with glue on one side, this is an ingenious easy-to-use substitute. It comes in all colours and designs: sequinned or studded with beads and glittering stones in different sizes. The price range depends on the texture, elaborate work and size.

Bindis hold a fascination for many for their attractive features.

It is an adornment that lights up your face and gives it a focal point.

The trend of wearing bindis these days is a fashion statement that is sweeping the west.

Singers like Madonna, Gwen Stefani and Shania Twain can even be seen on MTV wearing bindis.

cricket

[rishab]

>While I was visiting, for the first time ever >plans were being made for Cricket matches >between the Indian and Pakistani national teams, they've played many times (hundreds) even in india and pakistan. this is the first time in some (about 8 - not sure) years that india will play against pakistan, in pakistan. -rishab

Re:Question still unanswered....

[Anonymous Coward]

Google is your friend.

Hurst, Doesn't It?

[Beatbyte]

On re-outsourcing: Ashvini Vishvakasarma, a consultant with Techspan, feels that American and European companies currently outsourcing work to India won't hesitate for a second to move their work elsewhere if they find a cheaper alternative. "They will move in a flash," he says. "They're leaving for the Philippines already. It's very disturbing for Indian programmers."

Aint that a bitch.

Can't work from your home country nickel and diming some other countries natives out of their jobs anymore.

Re:Hurst, Doesn't It?

[Anonymous Coward]

I wouldn't make it sound like we are blaming them really. The programmers / techies are not at fault for the lost jobs. It's the country as a whole and the cost of living. If everything was cheaper in the US, then the work would all be in the US and the other countries will be complaining. Personally, so long as I get good service and support, I don't care. But right now, for when I have called for support and gotten overseas, the english language skills and the support skills are severely lacking (the techie didnt know what SMTP was when he was doing email support).

Re:Hurst, Doesn't It?

[jmccay]

Well said. I have SO MUCH sympathy for them. I wonder how it might feel...oh wait, I am a US Citizen and it has already happened!

Re:Hurst, Doesn't It?

[pclminion]

Can't work from your home country nickel and diming some other countries natives out of their jobs anymore.

Let me get this straight: some American companies approach some Indians and say "Hey, we need this work done, it's too expensive here, we'll pay you $XXX to do it."

And you're blaming the Indians for accepting a job offer? People offer them money, and they take it! How dare they! Of course, you would do different.

Let's place the blame, if there indeed is any to be placed, on the right spot, shall we?

Re:Hurst, Doesn't It?

[Beatbyte]

Hold yourself to a good standard. Don't undercut someone like that. I understand competition and lower prices but if we had that mentality for all service industries and people could do it from afar, everyone would be jobless.

Businesses big enough to do the outsourcing are already too big to not be greedy. I would expect them to be. They're in business to make money. Not make people happy.

Re:Hurst, Doesn't It?

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me get this straight: some American companies approach some Indians and say "Hey, we need this work done, it's too expensive here, we'll pay you $XXX to do it."

They should offshore to Australia, then they could say "Hey, we need this work done, it's too expensive here, we'll give you XXXX to do it."

Keep in mind the statistics...

[cavemanf16]

I noticed the interview kept mentioning that the 'middle class' in India constituted only 10-15% of the entire population of India. Well at 1 billion people +, that equates to 100,000,000 - 150,000,000 middle class Indians. When the US only has a population of 350,000,000 (a guesstimate) TOTAL, that Indian middle-class appears quite large in comparison. With the college tuition rates, government subsidies, and other factors in effect in India, it appears to me that they are primed to quickly over-take the U.S. as the premier investment opportunity for the world within the next 10 years or less. Those of us in America had better not become too comfortable with our posh standards of living as they currently are. I fear they will not last much longer.

Re:Keep in mind the statistics...

[gokulpod]

The figures you quote are true, but there is one major factor missing. To qualify as middle class in India, you don't need to earn a lot. About Rs. 10,000 (approx $250) a month, and you will be considered lower-middle class. At over Rs. 50,000 a month (approx $1100) a month, and you may well be categorised as upper middle class. So the US middle class has much more buying power than the Indian middle class.

Re:Keep in mind the statistics...

[danila]

You call that statistics? :) Real statistics would tell you that the majority of FDI is made from one developed country to another. Think USA EU Japan. Then you need to take the 10-15% claim with a grain of salt (the research on such topic is extremely complicated). It might as well be 2-5%. And they do not earn enough in $$$ to be middle class, the single reason why they are so rich is that their brethren are so poor. You too can be a Maharajah, just save 100 grands or so and move to India or Sri Lanka (like A. C. Clarke). Invest it and live on the dividends/interest. :)

The main hope for India comes not from outsourcing or domestic market growth. The main hope for India, like for all other countries, comes from advanced nanotechnology and AI.

Semantics

[FreshFunk510]

"Let's note, from the start, that Prudential does not "outsource" to India. They own their own call center (or centre, depending on your spelling heritage) there. When you speak to someone in their New Delhi office, she -- and it is usually "she" -- is just as much a Prudential employee as someone working in one of their U.S. offices."

With all due respect, who cares? Who cares what word you use to describe the loss of jobs to a foreign country? "Employed" or "Outsourced". Either way the final result is the loss of an American job to a foreign counterpart.

Re:Semantics

[Anonymous Coward]

""Let's note, from the start, that Prudential does not "outsource" to India. They own their own call center (or centre, depending on your spelling heritage) there. When you speak to someone in their New Delhi office, she -- and it is usually "she" -- is just as much a Prudential employee as someone working in one of their U.S. offices.""

"With all due respect, who cares? Who cares what word you use to describe the loss of jobs to a foreign country?"

Not true anyway. Prudential may not technically outsource the Call Center, but they damn sure do outsource the Programmer and Database jobs. Just ask me, I'm getting laid off next week from PRU and being replaced by Tata (TCS).

It's not the Indians who are the problem, it's the U.S. Corportations and the fact that our elected officials sit idly by doing nothing to protect us, all the while accepting special interest money from the same corporations.

AC

Re:Semantics

[Tablizer]

[Prudential does not "outsource" to India. They own their own call center....] With all due respect, who cares? Who cares what word you use to describe the loss of jobs to a foreign country? "Employed" or "Outsourced". Either way the final result is the loss of an American job to a foreign counterpart.

Time to coin a new catch-all term for jobs lost to cheap-labor globalism: Fucksourced

Re:Semantics

[Anonymous Coward]

>>Who cares what word you use to describe the loss of jobs to a foreign country?

Gee I don't know. Words have meaning.

After Valentine's evening, did you turn to your honey and say "Wow, that was the best fuck ever"?

Or "I enjoyed our copulation".

Or "Sexual intercourse with you was very good."

Gee, they all mean essentially the same thing, but have completely different impacts, don't they?

Oh wait, you have to have a honey to understand this post.

Re:Semantics

[El]

But, in the broader picture, why are American jobs more important than foreign jobs? Are American lives intrinsically more important than say, Iraqi lives? Are Americans the "chosen people" living in the Promised Land by a divine right conferred on them by God? Maybe Lord Krisna made the same promises to his followers...

Re:Semantics

[Rotten168]

why are American jobs more important than foreign jobs?

Well, because we're Americans. Ideally I suppose we should be just as concerned as people half-way around the world, but we all know that ideals and reality are two different things.

Re:Semantics

[flaflashr]

" But, in the broader picture, why are American jobs more important than foreign jobs? Are American lives intrinsically more important than say, Iraqi lives? Are Americans the "chosen people" living in the Promised Land by a divine right conferred on them by God? Maybe Lord Krisna made the same promises to his followers..."

No, but if an American corporation is employing foreign workers just to fatten their bottom line, then displaced American workers have a right to be incensed. If it were an Indian company buying cheaper labour from the Philippines, the Indian workers would probably feel the same.

If we were talking hard manufactured product, there would be appropriate tariffs in place to protect the American worker. Virtually every developed country has this system in place.

What's even worse is that this often involves government contracts or sub-contracts so we are paying taxes to take our own jobs away! I just heard the CT Senator Chris Dodd is going to introduce legislation to at least restrict the government contracts, but with the Republican controlled Congress and Administration, I doubt that it has a hope in hell of passing.

J

good to know

[Savatte]

After a few evenings hanging out with Delhi LUG guys (and yes, it's almost entirely guys)...

the language changes, but the LUG demographics stay the same wherever you go. Refreshing!

Chills up my spine

[Tablizer]

There is no shortage of people to do any kind of decent-paying work in India, period. The Army turns down at least 19 out of 20 applicants who want to be enlisted soldiers, and turns down 49 out of every 50 officer candidates, who must have college degrees even to apply in most cases....This goes back to that whole "one billion people" thing.

Scary. Very very scary. Brains are indeed becomming a very cheap commodity. Whatsa nerd going to do in the future? Or even now? Our skills have no value in the marketplace anymore.

Re:Chills up my spine

[dotsbir]

I don't know if the situation is brains ... becoming a very cheap commodity so much as it is a situation of having a larger pool of applicants to pick from. Example: High School Valedictorians may be very smart relative to their classmates, but put bunches of them together at a top-tier college or university and suddenly you've got people who had gotten used to being the head of the class suddenly in the middle of the back or even the bottom third! Well, imagine that instead of taking SATs and filling out college application forms and sending in small checks for the applications to get into university, you actually had to sit down and take a competitive exam to get into college. Now imagine that this competitive exam is taken not just by your high-school mates but by the top-tier of high-school graduates-to-be from your whole state. If you're applying to IIT, your competition is the top-tier from throughout the country. So we're talking about the cream of the crop of a billion bodies and brains, hustling just as hard, if not harder, to get into the coveted educational slots in engineering or medicine or law. And possible speculation: having to continue your education amidst these very competitive students might make you learn more.

Re:Chills up my spine

[Tablizer]

Most "high-end" education does not gear one for the real world very well. They tend to focus on research instead of typical "cubicle work".

Plus, the problem is what to do with all the existing techies. Sure, the next generation will know better, but we still have the existing crop to deal with.

Re:Chills up my spine

[axlrosen]

Theoretically, all those newly-employed brains will have more income to spend on more stuff, thus creating more jobs. So jobs may go over to India in the short term, but that may create more jobs here (and elsewhere) in the long term.

It obviously may take a long time before that happens, so the reality is not quite as nice.

Re:Chills up my spine

[ivrcti]

As a West Point Grad, I concur completely. I was one of those kids who went from being a big fish in a small pond to being a small fish amongst barracudas. (I learned quickly and survived.) To further your point, getting into medical school from West Point was almost impossible, since you were competing against some of the best minds in the country for just a few slots. The good news for me, was that the higher level of competition strengthened rather than crushed.

IN MODERN-DAY INDIA...

[Anonymous Coward]

...the programmers make about $400 a week.

THE INTERNET IS BIGGER THAN YOU THINK

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe you should get a internet connection.

http://slashdot.jp/

http://sourceforge.jp/

Maybe japanese don't like americans to host their projects.

Ah... I'll better stop... or I'll get modded as Troll...

All your jobs are belong to us

[big-giant-head]

NFM

But we are using your trash.

[Srividya]

We are not using here the Pentium gigahertz machines we see on the Internet advertisements of buy.com. Here we use machines that were put into landfills, at no cost. Books are still quite expensive, but the 486 and Pentium/60 machines of the garbage European make extensive usefulness here.

I assert many reading this comment have such machines in their house as trash. Here, they are for education.

Re:Dupe?

[anagama]

As a karma whore wannabe, I'd post the caption to this story if I was worried that /. would be slashdotted. As I'm fairly sure that /. will survive itself, let me suggest you scroll up and read the caption for the answers you seek.

Re:Dupe?

[WIAKywbfatw]

You're either a troll or an ignorant fool or both.

The cost of living is significantly cheaper in India, by at least an order of magnitude. Everything, from food, to housing, to transport, to you name it is cheaper there. Most white collar workers not only earn a comfortable living, but they can afford to employ other people (ie, servants) to do all the menial stuff, like cooking and cleaning.

If you think that you can achieve the same level of comfort (eg, a household where you do little more than eat, sleep and enjoy yourself) in the US in the equivalent job then you're deluding yourself.

I've bet you've never even left the US let alone been to India. I have, and I can tell you that most white collar Indians live relatively stress-free lives compared to those of us in the West. You were saying something about quality of life?

My true anecdote...

[rilister]

I visited Madras in 1997. While I was there I walked up to a temple overlooking the city - you had to climb up a 1000 steps or whatever to get there, so by the time you reach the top, you're a fair way out of the city. Sorry, but I don't remember the specific names.

Anyway, over the other side of this hill, facing away from the city is what you might call 'the ghetto' - low quality ad-hoc housing built from metal sheeting. Kind of the place you don't feel totally comfortable wandering around.

A kid approaches us (probably 12-14yrs old) and asks us who we are, where we're from. He speaks good english and is chatty. He points out his house below us - it's basic living. We make small talk.

After I while I ask him - '...so - what do you want to do when you grow up?'

'I'm going to be a C++ programmer'

I'm shocked and impressed. 'Wow. You have a computer?' I look at his house again. It may have electricity.

'No, I have a book. But I'm learning.'

-with that kind of enterprise and foresight, I can never begrudge an out-sourced Indian programmer his living.

Re:My true anecdote...

[thisissilly]

It's seven years later. He'd be about 20. It would be interesting to find out if he made it to becoming a programmer.

Re:My true anecdote...

[cybermace5]

I was saying similar things when I was eight. I knew I was going to be an engineer. I got books and learned from them, and experimented with electronics even though I didn't have enough money to buy expensive test equipment. Now that I have graduated from college, it's very difficult to find any work.

Can you look back at the me of 16 years ago, poring over the guts of an old alarm clock trying to figure out how it works, and begrudge me my living?

Re:My true anecdote...

[stuffduff]

When I became interested in computers, all I had was a book. And even that book was way out of date. This was the spring of 1967; a time before ic's and dip's. I have an adder board that was state of the art at the time, there were pairs of transistors as big as pencil erasers stuck in plastic blocks on the daughter boards that went to the main that pluged into a Philco-Ford computer's backplane. Both the board and the book fascinated me, and I never looked back. Within 3 months I had a different book: The IBM giude to the WATFOR Compiler, and the Fortran IV code I scribbled out on notebook paper actually got punched out on cards and run through an early IBM 360.

Now when I see someone like that it makes me feel good!

Re:My true anecdote...

[danila]

With that kind of enterprise and foresight, I can never begrudge an out-sourced Indian programmer his living.

Good point, but this is completely natural and expected. Western kids were raised in an affluent society and they learned that hard work really is optional (the USA likes to pretend it is based on hard work and protestant ethics, but, admit it, compared with India even the most hardworking American is a playboy). That is basically correct. The unemployment problems in the US do not really bode doom and gloom... Of course, Indians (and Chinese, etc.) understand the need to work much better. Wait a few decades, I tell you. ;)

A message to India

[Pee-Wee]

I just wanted to take a moment and say nice job you guys. This is very impressive to me. Each one of you are working hard to improve your lives and your country. I have a huge amount of respect for that. Very nice work!

Brian

Wisdom vs Money

[stuffduff]

While India has long been associated with poverty from an economic standpoint, the Indian culture has, in general, a far greater respect for wisdom and knowledge than anything we see in Europe or America. So I'm glad to see that the recognition of wisdom and knowledge are helping to 'bootstrap' a new culture. I just hope that no one loses site of the values that enabled the recognition of the opportunity! I'd hate to see the respect of traditional values be destroyed by the desire for money. Wisdom may well give rise to money, but all too often money stupifies and blinds the wealthy to the value of wisdom.

Re:Wisdom vs Money

[Anonymous Coward]

"While India has long been associated with poverty from an economic standpoint, the Indian culture has, in general, a far greater respect for wisdom and knowledge than anything we see in Europe or America."

Really. Like the wisdom to buy super premium gas when attempting to burn your wife?

right

[newsdee]

Communism is an economic structure. Democracy is a political one.
This is explained in detail over at the Political Compass website. They have a fun quiz too. :)

What have you given up?

[DAldredge]

What have you given up to enable your child to go to a better school?

There's one in every crowd...

[RobertB-DC]

Quite an honor to get the lead question, and even cooler to know that people in India now have the opportunity to question my clarity of thought!

Others echoed his reply, and a few thought the questioner wasn't "thinking very clearly." One Perl programmer asked, "Does he think we don't have email lists and Web sites? We are techies. We stay in touch all over the world. We know what's going on everywhere, same as you."

Consider me properly chastened. However... the reason I asked the question is because it's a topic that came up while talking to a fellow programmer of Indian heritage. She pointed out the H1-B visa's hidden pitfalls as a problem in the Indo-Pak community.

I guess the answer to my question is that *most* H1-B recipients knew what they were getting into, though a few either didn't do their research or chose to ignore the warnings. Which sounds like a pretty universal situation -- as the interviews showed, we're more alike than different.

But just one little swipe. When the Perl programmer questioned my fuzzy thinking, he said "We know what's going on everywhere, same as you." Well, despite all the time I spend on Slashdot, I *don't* know what's going on everywhere, and I can't imagine that Mr. Perl does, either... Oh, well, there's one know-it-all in every crowd.

Re:There's one in every crowd...

[Roblimo]

So true. I'd say the percentage of wiseasses among Indian geeks is about the same as the percentage of wiseasses among American geeks.

I cut this question because the story was getting too long: "How does it feel to be reviled by American programmers?"

The first answer I got to it was, "I have no idea. I've never *met* an American programmer."

Trust me: There's usually more than one know-it-all in almost any randomly-selected geek crowd, no matter where you go.

Scary, isn't it?

- Robin

Re:There's one in every crowd...

[geomon]

What Mr. Perl probably meant was "We watch television, read the newspapers, and have the Internet. We are as well connected as everyone else in the world."

I would assume that due to the fact that:

1) television is a poor translator of cultural information (we do not all look like TV personalities),

2) newspapers and other media outlets cater only to what makes the producer money (as they rightfully should), and

3) the Internet is inherently full of bullshit sprinkled with tidbits of accuracy,

it is entirely reasonable taht Mr. Perl and his fellow countrymen probably DO know as much about the world as we do.

Chip off your grain of salt on your way out....

Re:There's one in every crowd...

[vivian]

Welcome to the two laws of international relations I discovered while working & travelling overseas...

1) Everyone, everywhere are human beings, and generally have the same feelings, fears, hopes and dreams, much closer to yourself than you'd originally think, despite cultural differences.

2) No country in the world has a monopoly on assholes.

Who's the Brian Lehrer fan?

[PollGuy]

One of you slashdotters called WNYC's Brian Lehrer show this morning as he was talking about outsourcing. You said that you have been a programmer for 22 years and are now expensive to hire. You said that this issue has been a hot topic on Slashdot for years and you were glad that it was finally getting some mainstream press (especially now with the Mankiw debacle).

Just wanted to say thanks. I totally concur on your last point -- I've been waiting years for this to hit a critical mass on a non-geek forum. Funny it waited until an election year.

Re:Who's the Brian Lehrer fan?

[stratjakt]

That was me.

I messed up.

What I meant to say was: "BABA BOOEY BABA BOOEY BABA BOOEY HOWARD STERNS PENIS!"

But that would be too many caps, so says the slashdot crapfilter.

distribution of wealth

[happyfrogcow]

The money I earn spreads through the economy. Fathers work at better jobs because of my spending and can keep their children in school instead of having them go out to work early.

does any one else feel that it's a problem that a large portion of the worlds wealth is tied up in the personal accounts of people who could never possibly spend all their money or give it away? A huge amount of wealth is being accumulated and then not doing anything, it is stagnant and not being fed back into the local economies.

yeah yeah, taxes might help redistribute some of that wealth, but you hear what I consider "horror" stories that Joe CEO didn't have to pay any taxes last year, or only had to pay some obscenely small percentage of taxes on his X millions of income. what does Bill G pay in taxes each year, anyone have a clue? Probably nothing compared to his total wealth.

Re:distribution of wealth

[Anonymous Coward]

"huge amount of wealth is being accumulated and then not doing anything"

That has to be the dumbest thing I've read on Slashdot in a long time. Do you think that when you put your money in a "personal account" that it just sits there? Of course it doesn't! The bank loans that money to someone else, who spends it, and eventually gives it back. That someone else could be an entrepreneur starting a business, someone buying or building a house, or a big company that wants to expand even further. There is no such thing as "stagnant" money, unless you take some currency (or something of value) and hide it under your mattress.

Re:distribution of wealth

[blighter]

That might be a problem in India or other places where the modern economy hasn't fully penetrated, but not so much in the U.S.

Bill Gates doesn't keep all his money in a stack of mattresses or in a giant money-bin a la Scrooge McDuck, most of his wealth is in the form of Microsoft stock, which money is being used by Microsoft. You might disagree with how it's being used, but it is not sitting around doing nothing.

And this is generally true of the very, very wealthy. The amount of money that they keep "out of circulation" is usually a very small percentage of their total worth. This is because they don't hoard gold or physical money, their wealth is invested; investment allows for growth and economic development. Even money that they are keeping as "cash" is usually in the form of bank deposits where it is re-lent out to finance other opportunities.

At any rate. I don't want to get off into a whole rant about the capitalist system being mis-understood and mis-interpreted, but know that it is there! ; )

Re:distribution of wealth

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft apparently paid no taxes for 2002

Re:distribution of wealth

[Anonymous Coward]

The money in the bank gets loaned to whoever needs it.

You get pays $100K last year, now 40 is in your bank account ready to be loaned until you buy your house! Your salary was borrowed (maybe from the same bank) by your employer to run its business.

Worst, when the business borrows the $100K, it stays in a bank account until it is spent; the bank can lend it again until it is used.

If you borrow money for a car, the car dealer takes your money and put it in a bank account, the bank can lend it again until the dealer buy new cars, pay it's employees, the electricity and so on.

See a trend? Banks sort of "create money" into the economy. Actually the central bank must regulate how much money of an account a bank can lend (usually around 90%), to avoid too much money on the market(too much money in the economy brings inflation); and to make sure a minimum of cash flow is available at all time. This "re-lend" is one of the reasons in economical crash so little clients can get all the deposits back.

And this is only for the banks. Investing in the stock market have a similar effect, but instead of paying interest to the lender, you cut the middle man and you promise to share the future wealth you will create with the money.

This is why banks and stock markets are considered major achievements, comparable to currency, the wheel and fire.

Even the hard-core communist country uses the world markets to sell what they over produce (iron, oil, copper) and buy what they need (rice, sugar, oil).

Re:distribution of wealth

[Anonymous Coward]

Hahaha. Someone needs to photoshop up a picture of Bill Gates in Scrooge McDuck's money bin. That would be awesome.

I guess ignorance is bliss

[javiercero]

Tzzzz wrong, not even close.

Europe has been electing Communist party members to office for decades. Same in other parts of the world, this is hardly an "Indian only" phenomenom.

Shoulda outsourced the interviewee to India

[Anonymous Coward]

And get the REAL scoop on their parasite behavior!

Re:Shoulda outsourced the interviewee to India

[Anonymous Coward]

Who's the parasite? It's your own corporate masters doing the outsourcing!

Huge Problem

[DRue]

Most people I talked to believe government is the only hope; that egovernment and other government projects are the only way to develop a sustainable local IT sector.

With that attitude, things will never change. They need to be entrepenuers (sp?) and build their own market from the ground up. It won't work top down style sitting around waiting for the gov't to start ordering technology. Computers are cheap (even there) - start using them.

Re:Huge Problem

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is that computers aren't all that common, so there's not much of a domestic IT industry yet. The hope is in the government to become the market, not create it, because the government has needs that technology can fulfill. The private sector will grow from there, so their hope is that the government will start using more technology to do its governing.

Re:Huge Problem

[Anonymous Coward]

use google search for uncertain spellings.

Re:Huge Problem

[danila]

You don't understand economics, sorry. Macroeconomics, that is. And macroeconomics is not about free markets, it's about P=C+S+G+(I-E) (not sure about letters, it's production equals consumption plus savings plus govt spendings plus net imports) and about P=Pa+Pb, which is production equals production of manufacturing equipment plus production of consumer goods (there is also waste, i.e. military budget).

To grow the economy, you need more Pa to increase the amount of capital in the economy. The more Pa, the better, as long as you can assimilate it quickly and efficiently. And one of the best ways to do it is for the government to spend on this capital. In this century IT amounts for a large amount of necessary capital (of course, in India they need lots of basic stuff as well), so it totally makes for the govt there to buy lots of IT.

Markets don't work as efficiently, when you need to forcibly increase the size of the economy.

Re:Code mo[a]nkey Indians

[bot]

Not a whole lot of Nobel prize winners.. but there have been some:

• RABINDRANATH TAGORE (1913) - Literature
• CHANDRASHEKAR VENKATA RAMAN (1930) - Physics
• HARGOBIND KHORANA (1968) - Medicine
• MOTHER TERESA (1979)- Peace
• SUBRAMANIAN CHANDRASHEKAR (1983) - Physics
• AMARTYA SEN (1998) - Economics

There have been open source contributions by Indians- maybe not major ones yet. Take a look on sourceforge. I'm there :-)

Step ???, there is NO step ??? !!!

[Thud457]

Correction to your correction:

1. Go to the Brazilian rain forest and locate a native tribe
2. Teach them java but keep them living in huts
3. Be generous and pay them $0.30 / day
4. Profit!!
5. Open a McDonald's Franchise
6. Get them addicted to Big Macs
7. Profit!^2

Re:Enjoy it while you can..

[swb]

This is not entirely a trollish statement. A friend of mine with a PhD in history says that the US is setting the stage for either a Balkan-style civil war over cultural values clashes caused by non-integrating cultures and language gaps, or a neofascist government brought to power for economic and social reasons.

He's rather convinced that blacks and whites will align due to their closer shared history than any other group, although he said that a large muslim immigration would favor a white/black/mexican alliance on religious grounds.

While I think he's largely crazy, look closely at the areas of the world where divergent cultures and geogrpahy match up -- the Balkans, the Middle East, Southern Russia. It's easy to dismiss these conflicts as the products of recent history, but the historical reality is a massive back and forth for centuries.

I doubt that our capitalist spirit, where making a buck is our strongest value, will allow us to have that kind of situation, but its not entirely out of the question.

about Chile's example

[Anonymous Coward]

Chileans democratically elected a Marxist president (or Marxist-Leninist, as the chilean right-wing likes to say). But the U.S. didn't like it. So, in September 11th (1973) Allende was killed/killed himself. And then an ultra right-winged capitalist dictatorship ruled us for 17 years. We still feel the open sores.

We had both. Ironic, isn't it?

Anyway, Allende's government was not a good one, and surely a reelection was not expected. That's the way it should ended, democratically.

Re:Enjoy it while you can..

[Anonymous Coward]

My friend appealed to Tancredo to please help her husband return to the country so he could help support her (support is not just financial, you know) but Tancredo didn't listen. Campbell was kind enough to help her, though, and got her husband back to the US and helped with obtaining citizenship so he could help support the family he started.

too bad, just because she got knocked up doesn't mean her boy toy should get to cut in line to get into the country. Maybe they should have thought about that before she got knocked up. I forgot, there is no more personal responsibility here in the US. People get themselves into a stupid situation and expect the government, their parent(s), or Opera to bail them out. Too bad tootsie, keep your legs closed and wait for the guy to become a citizen if you don't want to have to have a kid without him being around.

great

[Anonymous Coward]

All the Delhi LUG crowd reads Slashdot.

More competition for American jobs and the elusive the first post.

Re:US Population

[Anonymous Coward]

FYI, the US population is MUCH lower, ~292,000,000 (www.census.gov)

Why is this modded funny?

[bad enema]

Where's the punch line?

Well? Where is it?

Oh....it's like that "there is no spoon" thing isn't it...

Re:Why is this modded funny?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it's more like a "you're as sharp as the leading edge of a BB" thing.

It's often assumed that there is little difference between a New Zealander and an Australian, given their close proximity to each other. However, following that same logic, there is no discernible difference between a Mexican and an American. They're close enough, right?

Play a few more video games there, Chim-chim. It's doing wonders on that kiddie pool of general knowledge you're amassing there.

Now they know how we feel...

[Anonymous Coward]

...On re-outsourcing: Ashvini Vishvakasarma, a consultant with Techspan, feels that American and European companies currently outsourcing work to India won't hesitate for a second to move their work elsewhere if they find a cheaper alternative. "They will move in a flash," he says. "They're leaving for the Philippines already. It's very disturbing for Indian programmers

And I don't feel sorry for them, they didn't hesitate for a second to take jobs away from us, now they can see what it's like to bus tables instead of doing the thing you love.

Re:Enjoy it while you can..

[kahei]

All the links on
http://www.tancredo.org/issues/issues.htm
see m to be broken.

I am currently unimpressed with Mr. Tancredo's bid for power :)

Here's the culprit right here

[JustAnotherReader]

I met programmers who lived in apartments and houses that cost anywhere between $200 and $500 per month.

So what we really have is this scenario:

1. US software companies tend to exist in Silicon valley, Orange County, San Diego County, and Boston. These are also the most expensive places in the country to live.
2. US software companies don't seem to want to allow telecommuting when their employees live within driving distance of work. They certainly don't want to allow it when the employee lives in, for example, Kentucky.
3. That means that the employees need to make wages high enough to afford housing in these markets. How do you pay a mortgage of $2500 to $4000 a month if you're not making $90k to $120k a year?
4. The US employees average car loan cost him $350 a month, plus auto insurance, plus gas (which hovers around $2 a gallon here in California).
5. So the US employee has NO CHOICE but to live in the expensive part of the country because the companies are too short sighted to see the benefit of letting their employees telecommute from places where the cost of living is cheaper. And yet isn't this EXACTLY what outsourcing is? It's just hiring employees who telecommute from a place where the cost of living is cheaper.
6. Therefore: US employees must have higher wages to maintain a middle class standard of living that would cost 30% to 50% less in other areas of OUR OWN country.
7. Employers then make the dumb-ass decision that "US programmers are too expensive" and they move the jobs offshore to India instead of using any of the easily available and less morally bankrupt cost cutting tools available to them.

   • The software companies caused their own problem. Our own government make the problem worse by keeping instrest rates so low that housing prices (not value, but prices) have skyrocketed. It's not the programmer's fault that the jobs in this country exist where they do, but we're the ones who are getting screwed.

     If US companies had enough foresight to see beyond the tips of their own noses they would realize that they could save money simply by outsourcing jobs to the midwest. Keep American jobs, keep the tax base here in America, and take the higher moral road.

     Have any of these companies thought about where their customers will come from when the middle class and upper middle class in America are no longer working AND no longer contributing to the tax base? There's more to outsourcing than me losing my job. This is the straw that will break America's already overloaded economic back.

Re:Here's the culprit right here

[shreak]

US companies "outsource" within the US as well. I was hired by a company based in San Jose. I live in NC. The guy doing the hiring was pitching an NC development location due to the concentration of telecom/network developers (Nortel, Lucent, Alcatel, Ericson, Cisco all have a large presence here).

The cost of living is a lot less here than SJC. We were all making about 20% less than our SJC counter-parts and still being paid a very competitive salary for NC.

You could open a development center in Deer Lick West Virginia and save even more. The problem would be finding developers. One of the benefits of Delhi is there is a large concentration of technology in a low cost place. That's hard to find.

=Shreak

Re:Here's the culprit right here

[acsinc]

First off the reason its so expensive to live in places like Silicon Valley is because tech companies made it highly desiralbe. They didn't move there just to exclude you. When many of these companies were first starting OC and Silicon Valley had average costs of living

What is this about housing prices skyrocketing? I can only assume you are refering to rent, since if you are buying a house the price is equal to its value plus interest, if the value is not equal to the price then you have been had. However I have not seen skyrocketing rent either, the apartment I rent is costing me 60% of what it would have cost me in 2000, I live in Denver.

I do agree with you that the companies are being shortsighted though, but for differnt reasons. Here is why and some history backing up my reasoning.

When labor unions first formed industrialist took a big hit since they had to pay thier workers more. Over time those workers spent that extra money there were making on things the indusrialists were making. In the end the industiralist won becuase the workers were doing well finically. The same thing is happening now. The US is the largest market for IT goods, but if we are all unemployed and can't afford these IT goods then the market will evaporate and the IT companies (analagous to the industrialist) will lose thier most important market.

Re:Here's the culprit right here

[axlrosen]

Therefore: US employees must have higher wages to maintain a middle class standard of living that would cost 30% to 50% less in other areas of OUR OWN country.

Yes, but the article just said that you can have a decent middle-class lifestyle in India for $4000 a year. That's over 90% less than in Silicon Valley etc. If you could outsource to Kentucky and save 30%-50%, or outsource to India and save 90%, it seems pretty reasonable to think that outsourcing to India is a good idea huh?

The Internet has made outsourcing possible on a wide scale, but Kentucky doesn't benefit much from that, because the jobs are jumping right over it.

Have any of these companies thought about where their customers will come from when the middle class and upper middle class in America are no longer working AND no longer contributing to the tax base?

The problem is that only a tiny fraction of the money they'd be paying to their workers will come back to THEIR company in this way. By your logic, the more they pay their workers, the better off the company will be. Why not just double everyone's salary and make a fortune?

Re:Here's the culprit right here

[Anonymous Coward]

Go house shopping lately? Everyone is charging more for their house because they know the interest rates are so low. So instead of taking advantage of low rates to afford a better house people are paying more for the same house.

Don't like it? Then don't go house shopping now.

Re:Here's the culprit right here

[FreshFunk510]

Cause and effect.

The reason why the costs of living are so high in those area were precisely BECAUSE of those high paying jobs. You got it backwards.

Basically the cost of living used to be normal but everyone started seeing that the tech jobs paid much. So then everyone and their mom wanted to move to SV. The pushed demand way up, with supply not able to catch up as quick. Then the average salary was raised and therefore the competition for renting/housing went up even more. That's why the housing and rent went up so high.

And that's also why if you try renting, you'll see that rents have fallen a lot. Basically the supply is now greater than the demand and they have to cut prices to compete with the people who are left living in those areas. Housing prices, though , have sustained and who knows where that's going to go.

Re:Here's the culprit right here

[JustAnotherReader]

What is this about housing prices skyrocketing?

In Southern California housing prices have increased 50% to 100% (some times even more) in the past 6 to 10 years. A house on my very street that sold for $173,000 9 years ago just sold for $448,000. Just north of us in Mission Viejo in Orange County I know of a place where homes sold for $450,000 just 4 years ago and are now selling for $1.2 million. Go to realtor.com and you won't be able to find a house in San Diego for less than $300,000. You will find a 600 sq. foot hell hole for $336k. Now look in Atlanta GA, Indianapolis IN, Lexington Ky, and so on and you'll see the difference.

If you look at house prices in Silicon valley, or Boston you'll tend to find the same pattern. So yes, the price of housing in the areas where the software jobs tend to be has risen dramatically.

Re:Here's the culprit right here

[JustAnotherReader]

The problem is that only a tiny fraction of the money they'd be paying to their workers will come back to THEIR company in this way. By your logic, the more they pay their workers, the better off the company will be. Why not just double everyone's salary and make a fortune?

You're missing the point. The American companies sell goods and services. When they are contributing to American unemployment in a way that ALSO reduces the tax base then they are killing off their own customer base.

Think of it this way: They're creating a country where the only jobs left are at McDonalds and yet nobody can afford to eat there.

Re:Here's the culprit right here

[funked]

I agree completely. If more people could telecommute, it could make things a lot better. However, I'm not sure if it would affect salary in the way that you're thinking. Imagine if your boss were to say to you - "No raises this year, but you can work from home." Some people may take up on the offer, but most would begin looking elsewhere. Telecommuting's great, I've been able to for almost a year now, but I never do because I seem to get more work done in the office. My entire team who can also work from home chooses to come in as well. Maybe it's peer pressure, maybe it's trying to network, whatever, it's more than just location. My house would cost just as much; I live where I live for my friends and family, not because of work. However, I can't help but to think of how much money I would save moving to middle of nowhere West Virginia or Pennsylvania, I would save at least $400 a month in rent and car expenses. We could just ride to the corner store in our shit-kicking pickup!

Re:Here's the culprit right here

[axlrosen]

Sorry, I think you're missing the point. What you say it true of the American corporate base as a whole. But for each INDIVIDUAL company, it makes more sense for them to save a lot of money on salaries than it does to contribute to the tax base. Because for each individual contribution a company makes to the tax base, it's likely to only get a tiny fraction of that money back itself. Think about it - if I'm a software company and I pay an employee X, then a tiny portion of that might come back to me when that employee buys software, but much more of it will go toward food, housing, etc.

Each particular American company would love it if all the OTHER companies would keep jobs in America and paid them huge wages. But that company will get more profit if it moves ITS jobs offshore. (That's known as the Tragedy of the Commons.)

Government stimulus

[GQuon]

Most people I talked to believe government is the only hope; that egovernment and other government projects are the only way to develop a sustainable local IT sector.

Next question (asked by Indians I spoke to): "Where is the government going to get the money?"

Getting out of the way is the politicians' first job ;-) Once that's done there are lots of things to do:

The obvious answer would be to tax existing IT companies, or better yet require them to pay a percentage to a public trust. This money could be used to pay for education programmes, business plan competitions, research, startup subsidies and other things. This would benefit the companies themselves, except when it creates competitors.

Another thing to do might be asking wether India is aiming to be a world leader in IT, or should be content with servicing it's own population and neighbouring country. Maybe Indian companies can focus on a few specific niches?
My country has bold plans to be a big tech nation. I have more faith in focusing on certain areas, like medical informatics, biotechnology, and marine technology, instead of being the master of everything. (That doesn't mean we kill all the other businesses, it means we give more to the focus areas.)

And the most important point last: Education. "Information" like in "IT", and "knowledge" as in "knowledge industry."

Computers more like a LIBRARY than a book

[seawall]

Books/Computers is changing question and we are nearing a tipping point as traditional book costs continue to remain stable (or go up) and computer costs go down.

Schools try to train for tomorrow as well as today. They don't alweays succeed but:

If you have something like a lowend Palm and an internet connection (possibly shared by many) all of a sudden you have a LOT of public domain, classic books, available for very near no cost. Although a library might have 6 copies, the net has as many copies as you have devices to display them.

In some domains, like 19th century english literature: computers are cheaper than traditional books now and I expect that trend to continue.

This is, of course, probably less true in some places than others and books currently mostly have the edge but the trend is probably worldwide and longterm.

I expect traditional books to remain a common item throughout my life but probably not the life of my grandchildren. Makes me a little sad.

OPA

[dillon_rinker]

Organised Peaceful Anarcy makes perfect sense.

Anarchy means no government. Peaceful anarchy is probably the only form possible, as violent anarchy leads rapidly to rule by the strongest man with the biggest stick. An organized peaceful anarchy would be one in which there was no government but much coordination. I'd see the organization as having a more economic than political role, though. Without some organization, you might wind up with everyone growing grapes and no one growing hops, and that would be a tragedy.

I'll grant that organized peaceful anarchy is unstable (tending toward violent disorganized anarchy) and it probably wouldn't last for a real long time, but then, in the scale of human history, neither does democracy.

Re:OPA

[2short]

Hmmm... Organized Peaceful Anarchy sounds to me like "Government, butwe don't call it government" But it's still government, and government that can't impose a solution to the first conflict two citizens aren't willing to resolve on their own won't last a week. Much less chalenge democracy for longevity.

If a bunch of farmers get together and agree that some of them will grow grapes and some of them will grow hops, they are engaging in government. If the hop growers insist on growing grapes, the group can insist that someone grow hops (looking a lot like a government, and not at all like anarchy) or the society can crumble under a revolt of the beer drinkers.

"In the scale of human history" everything looks short. But try rating governing systems by years they've lasted times number of people governed, and democracy (in some form) looks like the winner to me.

Re:OPA

[dillon_rinker]

I'm a few days late, but I wanted to say that I liked your metric for rating governmental success - years they lasted * number people governed. As long as you categorize all the people and all the governments, you'll get a good metric.

Still, I think democracy will end up on the short end of the stick; more people have lived under non-democratic governments. It would be an interesting exercise to take a look.

slashdot feature

[moojin]

this was a really interesting post and response. could we do something like this for other countries like China, Philippines, Korea, Russia, Ireland, England, etc. it would be very interesting to learn about other IT professionals / slashdot geeks all over the world and their perspective of certain tech issues like off shore outsourcing, open source movement, etc.

One question I would have liked to see

[The Slashdolt]

One question I would have liked to see asked is about intellectual property laws. Copyrights and things of that nature. As the interview states, many of our Indian brethren read slashdot so maybe one of them can reply to this. My question is about what kind of IP laws exist in India in comparison to US laws. Are US copyright laws valid there? What is to stop a company from outsourcing to India, and then having the company in India take that new IP and later compete with the company that originally outsourced to it?

Re:One question I would have liked to see

[Brahmastra]

India Business Law Guide

Re:One question I would have liked to see

[Anonymous Coward]

The Indian copyright laws are in line with the international standards. IP regime is usually based on an international framework (except that usually only Process Patents are granted, not Product Patents.)

US laws don't hold in India (and not just w.r.t copyright either); India has its own laws and only those laws are enforceable. A key difference in copyright laws is the absence of ad hoc extensions of the kind given to benefit Disney a few years back.

As for the last question: There are such things as written contracts.

Tied up wealth

[nuggz]

Sorry money never gets "tied up".
The only place close would be in government bonds, which are now basically tools to control the money supply.

If you have a lot of money, you own companies (outright or in stock), or you loan it out (bonds, money market investments, or a bank account).

The money is still there, being invested and growing both the investment and the economy at large.

FWIW I'd hope that Bill G pays little in taxes compared to his wealth. You should pay taxes on income, not only on assets. I'd be really pissed if the gov started taxing my emergency fund, or the money I was saving to [buy a house, go to school, retire on].

It doesn't work.

[Anonymous Coward]

The Libertarian social movement of the 1960s
is a failure: divorce, fragmenenting nuclear
family, women forced into the job market, ecstacy,
massive imprisonment of young black men, more
abortion, gay "marriage", more crime, less
social mobility, more divorce, lower voter
participation rates, etc.

So is the Libertarian economic disaster launched
by Reagan ( the "trickle down your pants" phenomena ):
lower social mobility, lower growth rates, more congestion,
lower birth rates, higher illegal immigration, more guest workers, concentration of
wealth amoung the very rich, destruction of
local cultures, etc.

"Trickle down" didn't work : bottom line is it
provide us with LOWER GROWTH RATES AND
MORE CONENTRATION OF CONTROL OF WEALTH IN THE
HANDS OF THE VERY RICH.

Thanks Ronnie !!!!
Thanks W !!!!

Re:Code moankey Indians

[Anonymous Coward]

Errr ... V.S. Naipaul is a fellow Trini.

Cost Model

[GodLived]

I wonder how the typical American IT company accounts for risk in their cost model when trying to decide whether to outsource. Risks can come from several factors:

• Import/export laws governing types of code/technology transfer to a certain country, noting that laws change with the wind depending on who's in power
• Economic equity, e.g., how well the rupee is doing against the dollar
• Labor policy disparity - American unions vs. Indian unions in non-IT related firms

Another way to look at it - offshore outsourcing seems to have some of the same risks as telecommuting, for both the companies and the employees... and look how well telecommuting has been accepted in the U.S.!

Re:architects and builders

[dotsbir]

i'm a yahoo.

What realy puzzles me...

[Qbertino]

..is that in general, people (geeks and non-geeks) don't seem to see that massive IT work on a beehive scale probably isn't going to last very long in india either.
99% of software related work I do today I do with software that I get for free of the net. It's called OSS.

What's still missing in the OSS dept?

Feasable ERP and usable Multimedia (video NLE/Compositing, animation, 3D). And games maybe.
What else? Niche stuff at most.

That being said, wouldn't it be cool for western geeks to collect something like the 100 000 $ for Blender to have a large team in india do some grunt work on XFree, GNU Enterprise or something else? Or maybe the base for the blender 3.0 redoo, with NLE, NLA, crystal space engine integration and all that?

Some 50 programmers or so could actually make a living over there and we'd all be on the winning side. I personally would LOVE to call myself a sharehoplder of the 'Indian Team OSS Group' or so. What do other slashdotters think about this? Am I making sense?

Re:What realy puzzles me...

[Bendebecker]

Who is going to be writing open source software when where all unemployed and unable to purchase computers when our current ones breakdown? OSS requires ppl contributing to it. If the market goes all OSS cause its cheaper, then most people will be out of a job in the tech sector (cuase no one will be buying software). No job, no money. If everyone goes broke, no one will be able to contribute, and OSS will suffer. Some will decide to start selling software again cause OSS is badly outdated. Everyoen starts selling software again. Then an OSS market pops up again cause there are nough ppl to contribute. The pattern continues.

Re:What realy puzzles me...

[Qbertino]

Who is going to be writing open source software when where all unemployed and unable to purchase computers when our current ones breakdown?

IT Unemlployment isn't going to grow indefinitely.
IT jobs are shifting to service rather than coding and selling closed source.This will also bring back jobs to where the customers are. And it will even strengthen OSS.
Closed source and large proprietary software families are a thing of the past. That's the big thing that's changing. And that's the only reason it's actually feasable to outsource big time. Whenever an industry does that it's about to change big time anyway. That doesn't mean we're all going unemployed for the rest of our life. I lost a job as a developer and now do freelance stuff with lot's of OSS and a strong service orientation, close to the people in other fields of business. That 40 hrs. keypunching on proprietary stuff is _never_ going to come back. Not for me it is anyway.
And in the end, I thank God for it. Now i sit at my desk or laptop for half the time at most. The rest of the time I go out, talk to customers and am much closer in touch with reality than any coder could ever be. I know I'll get my customers top-range software for nearly all their need for zero money and they'll gladly pay me to custom design and programm their supply chain management, rich media framework, web-cms or whatnot. And in the end I get to GPL the code!
Dig it: My customers _pay_ me to do _real_ fun computer stuff, they are thankfull for me doing it and in the end I can publish it as OSS. I got layed off and I adapted and I'll _never_ look back!

Once again, to all coders out there:
8.5 hrs a day keypunching proprietary software along with selling closed source is deader than a doornail and is done with.
- - - IT IS OVER! - -
The last stuff that proprietary can do to make money is so measyly IT HAS TO BE DONE BY SUPER CHEAP LABOR.
And that, my dear geek friends IS A GOOD THING for the _global_ economy!
Coding has become a service and custom craftmanship and ceased being a assembly line mass production. Get that into your skull and fucking adapt. The earlyer, the better.
I thought /. was a place of future and OSS aware geeks...

Cheez, coming to think of it, I guess I should consider myseld lucky being layed off early enough.

Re:What realy puzzles me...

[Milo77]

so, you want to raise 100000 in capital to fund a team in india that develops software they give away for free. hum...what you're talking about is called charity - both to the indians you employ and to the world that uses your software. i am a little unclear as to where step #4 profit fits in ;) now, if only i could write-off the time i spend workin on open source projects...

Re:What realy puzzles me...

[HarleyPig]

I like this idea. It would also answer the question of "where will the money come from", at least partially.

Wouldn't the movie industry like to see this happen?

Re:What realy puzzles me...

[Spo0nman]

ok! this is a bit personal but, there was a little talk i had with couple of people from fsf-india .(yes! there is a fsf-india) about the same issue and I for one am really intrested in doing work on some kind of video editing software. what is stopping me? well! my paid job takes up 12 hours of my day and sometimes the weekend, I cant do free s/w from work and I dont have a reliable net connection at home.

To answer the other question about the lack of free software projects from india. I disagree, there are many going on. I myself contribute alot of stuff and am active on the debian-hurd list as well. I know a person who was one of the top 10 netfilter hackers not too long ago. A kde developer and a gnome developer lives in my city (delhi).

But it is hard to contribute on a regular basis because of a lack of resources, a 24hr net connection for example is 15% of my salary.

Pay is too low

[nuggz]

You can hardly afford to fly to India on what they'd pay you.

Its the politics, stupid

[Tablizer]

This of course brings us to the source of the problem. US companies are willing to sell out their workers and the economy for a short-term boost in stock price. They should all be ashamed and I hope they get brain cancer.

It is partly our fault for not unionizing and/or forming strong lobbying groups. Corporations are not afraid to bribe politicians. Unless we do the same, they will control us like NASA does a Mars rover.

Hell, if a bunch of gun affecionados (NRA) can influence elections and scare politicians into action (or inaction), then why can't a bunch of geeks?

We can't rely on the "good will" of CEO's, we have to roll up our sleaves and bribe bribe bribe! Fight fire with fire.

Slashdot should invite some union or lobbying experts as slashdot guests. They may have some tips. It can't hurt.

Re:Its the politics, stupid

[Kenja]

I say we take a chapter out of hte Book of Dogbert.

"Do what we say or we'll instant message your daughters phone number to thousands of nerds!"

Actually...

[Looks_Like_A_Penguin]

if you read on, this is a follow up post, complete with answers to ./ readers' questions.
LLK

Price Dumping?

[khrustalicious]

Very interesting article.

My question would have been what about price dumping? We (the US) don't allow government-supported industries to dump product here for many reasons.

Isn't this the same thing?

It was pointed out in the article how difficult it is to find work in India. So these outsourcing companies can exploit their workers, making them work for free for the first few months, and pay them relatively low wages, then advertise with US companies how much cheaper and better their product is.

How is this not price dumping? And if it is, maybe the other debate is, should we not care? Global economy, yada yada, if they want to dump, let 'em?

Re:Price Dumping?

[gordguide]

No. I'm not trying to argue anything in you post (it's obviously cheaper to hire in India) but dumping refers to a specific example of unfair competition.

It's naturally confused by politics where industries make accusations and try to get trade relief, but keep in mind these accusations are only heard in the domestic market, where the truth isn't so important (and unfair accusations are unlikely to be refuted).

Essentially it's selling a product in an export market for less than you sell it for in your domestic market, in order to increase exports or maintain an industry. It also implies (but doesn't necessarily require) that you are selling in the export market for less than the cost to produce the goods.

Japan is very good at dumping, but every nation does it when the economy goes a little sour, because of the following reason:

Consider that it's common everywhere to keep a plant open and sell at a loss because it's cheaper than shutting down the plant completely; certain costs (taxes, heat, maintenance, loan repayments) remain but if you shut down you have zero sales to support paying them. There is a point where shutdown is viable, but it's not just because you might be losing a bit of money per sale.

So, when a market is very competitive or sales are in a downturn, some industries will try to sell excess product at a loss to other nations, and maintain operations so that they can take advantage of the expected upturn. It's almost like the old joke: "I am selling at a loss but making it up in volume."

It is also very common where you have a "strategic industry" like steel. No country is willing to let it's steel industry decline because it is critically important to the rest of the economy and to wage war, so steel is perhaps the most common commodity to be both dumped and unfairly accused of dumping. Every steel-producing nation has done both, at different times.

Note that dumping does not mean selling your product for less than that foreign market's domestic cost of production; if you are making a profit at your lower price that is not dumping, that's commerce (even though it won't be appreciated by the export market's domestic producer, and they will almost certainly accuse you of dumping for political reasons).

It doesn't really apply to people; dumping is pretty much impossible with wages if there are any labor laws to be heeded.

The example of dumping, as applied to programmers, would be:

Given that you can get paid perhaps $300 a month for coding in India, it would be dumping if you could hire an Indian Programmer working for an Indian company who is paid $300 a month but residing in the US and hired out to US firms at $200 a month.

Now, that's not to say there are no similarities between Outsourcing and Dumping; your comment is insightful and thought provoking. It's just not technically correct to say they are the same thing.

Re:Enjoy it while you can..

[ObiWonKanblomi]

I realize this may be considered by many as off-topic, but please hear me out before marking me so.

I'm going to have to lean toward the neo-facist comment. I've been a student of history for some time now, and am starting to notice the many parallels between the events in the United States and that of Weimar Republic Germany in the mid-to-late 1920s. This can be illustrated by the increasing political stagnation while society is "moving forward" at a fast rate.

Economically speaking, I think we Americans may be venting our anger at the wrong people, but if this continues, it will eventually lead to a sort of new age isolationism in America. Another thing to note is that American government makes a big change when the isolationist period ends. True, with globalization, it will be more difficult for this to occur, but you could look at france as a modern day example of this new age isolationalism.

Another example: I won't get too off topic, but for a decent chunk of time, Berlin was known in the 20s as a Mecca for homosexuals due to the lack of enforcement of any sort of anti-gay laws. Look at San Francisco right now with this whole gay marraige issue.

This sort of behavior that we Americans are starting to display now with the lack of action/reaction within our government can prove as an ideal source for a dictatorship.

While, I myself feel that a dictatorship isn't a totally bad thing (Castro), we should definitely examine this matter and realize what is occuring.

Outsourcing Quality of Medical Care

[MCRocker]

I guess that's why there was a slashdot story, India Woos Medical Tourists recently. They're not just outsourcing coders, they're outsourcing medical care too.

Re:Outsourcing Quality of Medical Care

[dotsbir]

Missed that story 'cause I wasn't here yet. Thanks for the link.

Re:Libertarianism get scored up around here !!!

[skedastik]

whether liberal or not, as an econometrician I use data and statistics to support theories. correcting someone and pointing out facts does not make us whiners.

although I would classify "... bullshit makes me wanna puke sometimes." as whining.

oh really?

[itallushrt]

"They will move in a flash," he says. "They're leaving for the Philippines already. It's very disturbing for Indian programmers."

Welcome to our world pal. Kinda sucks when what goes around comes around huh?

where to whoa

[boarder]

This govt is in the states of Kerala and, IIRC, West Bengal. I did some travelling in Kerala and ended up stuck in the middle of a huge communist rally. It was really eery, being from the US and growing up in the cold war era, to be surrounded by red flags and banners like that.

One interesting fact is that Kerala is among the most literate (98% literacy rate, officially) in the world. My friends told me that communism is especially alluring to those of the intellectual persuasion in India. Also, Kerala is a southern state, and very few tourists visit there (Delhi and Bombay are considered northern states). With the exception of Kovalam Beach, I was the only "white" person I saw there.

Re:where to whoa

[gnalle]

You could find similar rallies in much of Europe. The official danish first of may party however is slowly decaying into a celebration of Carlsberg :)

Re:where to whoa

[SwitchBitch]

That is not correct, tourism is huge in Kerala, you must have gone in an 'off-season'

Re:where to whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, good to find comments about my home state in slashdot. Most of what you said about Kerala is correct, but not the part about tourists. Kerala is a very favoured destination for people from Europe. I recall it was selected among the top 50 tourist destinations in the world by the National Geographic magazine. Kerala is so successful in tourism that other states look upon it as a model. Too bad they are not blessed with natural beauty as much as Kerala is!
Visit official kerala tourism site for details.

No long term threat here. Next.

[mosel-saar-ruwer]

Q: This point has already been mentioned a bit by previous articles, but I'd like to hear an insider's take on it. The Indian tech economy is booming now, but like in the US, it's an unstable boom. Sooner or later, the US will look to other countries for their tech work, leaving India high and dry. What measures are being taken in India to maintain a strong internal tech economy, in the event that the US is no longer a serious customer?

A: Most people I talked to believe government is the only hope; that egovernment and other government projects are the only way to develop a sustainable local IT sector. Next question (asked by Indians I spoke to): "Where is the government going to get the money?" I was asked to pose this one to Slashdot readers. Consider it posed. Plenty of Indians would like to know the answer.

Let's hope for the sake of Indians that you're wrong.

But for the sake of argument, let's assume you're right, i.e. let's assume that most [if not all] Indians look to their government to solve their problems for them.

Then I can say with 100% metaphysical certainty that these people will never pose a threat to us in any way, matter, shape, or form.

Next. [Threat, that is.]

Re:No long term threat here. Next.

[Anonymous Coward]

The next long term threat being the disease that wipes them out and the rest of the world due to their govt's poor health care system. No need to worry about them stealing our jobs. They'll all be dead soon from overcrowding and the disease that comes with it. Only a matter of time. Then there will be plenty of jobs for those who live in countries that value health care. Our health care system may not be perfect, but it's a LOT better than most other places.

Re:No long term threat here. Next.

[Anonymous Coward]

And non-NASA space programs are so strong?

Re:No long term threat here. Next.

[orblee]

Just because the US cannot trust its government to do anything, it doesn't mean the other countries of the world haven't been able to do so. We haven't been able to trust the UK government to do anything for a while, but in the past, successive governments have made tremendous changes. Margaret Thatcher and the weakening of the unions (less strikes all of a sudden and things starting to work). Aneurin Bevan in 1946-48 formed the NHS and suddenly all citizens got free health care. Serious socio-economic problems in the post war era were solved (although the principles of the NHS existed in various non-profit hospitals before the act of parliament).

How about the EU? Mostly they seem a waste of space, but until 1999 we had no minimum wage law in this country - or even requirements on holiday entitlement or hours worked. Previous governments thought it would stifle the UK economy and (understandably) didn't want to be judged to be failing when companies did suffer. However, the minimum wage means that elderly people who's pension is low no longer have to work 60 hour weeks to afford a decent living on 2.50 and hour.

Plus, there are countless other laws passed throughout the years in an old country like the UK that have moulded history into civilisation until we are at the point we are now. Remember that the US wouldn't exist without these countries and their (albeit draconian) laws. The citizens disliked the governments and moved to the new world. Great Britain owned it still but what with it being so far away, it was much easier to be free. Then, the citizens of the US had a common enemy in Great Britain to fight against to gain independence. Then, the US constitution was born from a few gifted founders. Your whole lives are governed by it.

Don't belittle democracy by saying the government can never do anything for you. If you believe that, you may as well move to a monarchist and dictatorship state. They're cheaper and faster.

Re:Question still unanswered....

[Anonymous Coward]

Also called 'laltika' (red dot) which like 'swastika' is a holy
religious symbol

Re:Enjoy it while you can..

[Anonymous Coward]

Indians are 'Aryan' by definition. 'Arya' is a term taken from
the hindu religious text: the rig veda and was used by Nazis
specifcally because India is the "indo" in Indo-European
peoples/languages

Where is the government going to get the money?

[slackr]

Next question (asked by Indians I spoke to): "Where is the government going to get the money?"

To answer this question (since it was posed) the Indian government will have a hard time coming up with enough money to do anything for 1 billion people when the very lucky ones are only pulling down $10,000/year. See, according to my paystub, the answer *would* be taxes, but here in the US we have a much lower unemployment rate and I personally pay enough in taxes to support two full-time programmers in India, or to put that in even starker perspective, I give enough money to the US government to hire and retain almost 50 Indian household servants.

And I couldn't come close to affording one here in the states. In fact, I don't make much at all. In other words, here in the US we are not expecting the government to build us a new economy, and yet middle-class folks like me are funding the government with much bigger sums of money to provide baseline social services to a much smaller population.

It seems to me that while a homegrown IT market is a great and important plan, the Indian government will not find it easy to create an entire economy based on that alone. But why does everyone have to work in the tech industry? Take a tip from FD Roosevelt's "New Deal" plan to get the US out of its depression back in the 1930's. It goes like this:
(people who need homes) + (people who need jobs) = (lots of jobs building houses). All kinds of infrastructure can be created this way, building roads, office complexes, etc., and once everyone's on their feet they will continue to benefit from all of these public works projects taht were created during the hard times.

Right but there's still that huge population, so who's going to pay for all that? Easy, one more lesson in US public funding: DEFICIT SPENDING. It's simple, if you don't have the cash, spend it anyway. When will you pay it back? We haven't figured that out yet, but it sure beats begging. Like my Dad always says, I'd rather owe it to you than cheat you out of it ;)

Re:Where is the government going to get the money?

[pontifier]

The US economy is based on debt and the govenment is a big reason we can borrow money. as far as i can tell with, only a few exceptions, mortgage payments lead back to the federal reserve bank. Indirectly most of us (Americans) are in debt to the US government.

How tough is it to get a loan in India I wonder?

Re:Where is the government going to get the money?

[FreshFunk510]

On NPR this past weekend I heard that San Jose is the worst (yes, worst) city to do business in (as of now). The reason being that the industries are not diversified there and all the money is in, surprise, tech.

Anyway, I'm sure that's obvious but I wanted to say that your comment made me think that India is like the macro version of San Jose. Like you implied, if they don't diversity their industriesi then when The Next Big Thing (tm) in outsourcing comes then they, and all these nouveau rich kids, will be screwed just like us Silicon Valley kids.

Re:Where is the government going to get the money?

[Rotten168]

Most Americans are in debt to the US government through taxes only. Mortgages are given through government secured loan companies (the government covers the banks if you default).

Re:Where is the government going to get the money?

[Anonymous Coward]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with deficit spending. In fact, in a situation like india's, inadequete deficit spending is an irresponsible waste of resources. Most people insist on equating government finance with their own, completly missing the fact that there is a fundamental difference between an issuer of a currency and and user of a currency (something like the difference between an issuer of subway tokens and a user of them: does the subway collect tokens because it "needs" them? Think about it...)

To help you, read this: http://www.mosler.org/docs/docs/soft0004.htm

Re:Where is the government going to get the money?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's true. Uh... nobody said there was anything wrong with deficit spending. You should read more.

Re:Where is the government going to get the money?

[sbeashwar]

Be smart while electing your president and make sure he keeps a tab on your defence budget :-)

E-Government

[GQuon]

Maybe I should take my advice and focus on the question :-)

The question was more specifically about the government being a large IT customer, to stimulate the Indian IT industry. Then how does the government come up with the money to spend on IT?

Government projects could be funded in the form of the fund that I suggested; but that would make no sense, because IT companies would be paying themselves to work for the government. That doesn't provide much stimulation.

Instead of taxating all IT, they could levvy it as an export duty on IT. Foreign companies could afford a small percentage less saved on outsourcing.

The industrialised countries that are losing the jobs might even contribute to such a scheeme: "Create demand in India, meaning more work for Indian IT guys, and maybe even more work for us (training, management, consulting). "

To do this, India must move fast before the jobs move to the Phillipines or Africa. Then such a levvy would drive many of the foreign customers and companies out of India. And the WTO rules must allow it.

Orthogonal in Theory

[Catskul]

They are orthogonal in theory only. In practice the requirements to bring people into the system makes the economic systems dependent on the governmental system.

It is extremely difficult for a free market economy under strict control since by definition its not a free market if it is tightly controled.

Communism on the other hand requires strict control as people will default to free market economic behavior when not constrained. It therefore requires more governmental control through its need for economical control. In my opinion, that is why it failed. The idea is great, but its like the environment, attempts to control throw it out of balance.

Re:Orthogonal in Theory

[Captain Rotundo]

"It is extremely difficult for a free market economy under strict control since by definition its not a free market if it is tightly controled."

Uh... no.

the term "free market" is a complete falicy, and htat is why you are wrong. All markets are artficial constructs, with artificial rules and controls. I am not saying a "free market" can't exist, just that it doesn't, and since I am going to assume you are an American (as Americans are apt to do, myself being one) I will add even NOT in the US.

The term "free market" is used probably because of the conotations "free" has.

Re:Orthogonal in Theory

[Anonymous Coward]

Communism on the other hand requires strict control as people will default to free market economic behavior when not constrained. It therefore requires more governmental control through its need for economical control.

Not quite right. Individuals will default to semi-feudal or mob-like behavior if given the chance. (Even a lot closer to "Lord of the Flies" if they are tradition free.) This is emphatically not a free market. A true free market is the opposite --- it slaps down anyone who tries to dominate (that is what competition is for...) and in practice needs to be supported by vigorous regulation to prevent socially-parasitic forms of behavior like insider trading, false advertising, predatory pricing, nepotism, secrecy, kickbacks, etc...

One of the core problems with soviet-style communism as a form of social organization is that it has very limited defenses to "feudal" or mob-like behavior. So you have rich/corrupt apparatchiks who hoard resources and pass along favors to those who favor them.

Re:Orthogonal in Theory

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

I think the original guy is right. You CAN have free markets. Free market would be a market that is not constrained by any forces (say the government). If you had a market with no government intervention, it would be a free market. USA isn't it but it is closer to it than any other country (not counting little ones like Singapore, Monaco, Bahamas, etc). Because most governments have SOME socialist ideals, there isn't a true free market even in USA. For instance, the existence of minimum wage laws, taxes, and other things mean that the labour market is NOT a true free market. However, there is nothing stopping free markets from existing in the real world.

I don't get your artificial rule/control reasoning. What's so artificial about having a market with no intervention? They can exist.

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Speak for yourself.

[tommck]

I've said it time and again. I've had no problem whatsoever getting work in this economy. If your skills are pertinent or good enough, you'll be employed.

Concentrate on higher-level stuff... design, architecture (non of this extreme programming crap). You can be the person designing the software that's outsourced. You'd better be good at design though, since the folks doing the implementing don't tend to come back with questions. They usually pound out exactly what you asked regardless of whether it was appropriate or not.

Re:Speak for yourself.

[Tablizer]

Concentrate on higher-level stuff... design, architecture (non of this extreme programming crap).

I don't see a lot of offerings in such right now. Besides, it tends to require more bullshitting, schmoozing, and interview lying skills than I currently have.

Re:Speak for yourself.

[tommck]

I don't see a lot of offerings in such right now. Besides, it tends to require more bullshitting, schmoozing, and interview lying skills than I currently have.

Whether intentional or not, I resent the implication.

Also, design and architecture are not bullshitting or schmoozing things. Many people don't get it. Thus their difficulty in obtaining jobs. Designing and Architecture are the most important part of software.

You don't just hand a bunch of mechanics some sheet metal and ask them to build a car. It takes a lot of planning and designing and prototyping to figure out how to do something correctly. It's the Architect that does such things. The mechanics (read: coders) wait until the Architect is done with the hard stuff before plodding along and coding.

If it is not done this way where you work, your company's IT shop is not mature enough yet. It will happen and most of the coding will be done outside the country.

Evolve or become extinct.

Re:Speak for yourself.

[Tablizer]

Also, design and architecture are not bullshitting or schmoozing things.

Perhaps not, but the job interview is. The trick of any job interview is to project to the interviewer what THEY think "architecture" is. They can't really test you in 2 hours for real stuff, and probably don't know themselves if it is a smaller shop, so they pick people they like and who "project" competency. It is all an acting game. Life is a social and sales game, for good or bad.

Re:Speak for yourself.

[DrCode]

Well, the nice thing about being an "architect" is that you can go for quite a while without proving anything. If your design doesn't work out, you can blame it on the "coders".

OTOH, if you claim to be a "software developer", you can be assigned a small coding task during the interview, and judged by its success.

So while there may be truly good software architects, I'd have to agree with your original assertion that getting such a job often involves "bullshitting or schmoozing".

Re:Speak for yourself.

[zzyzx]

"Evolve or become extinct."

Yet another example of a friendly libertarian motto. What we're doing is slicing away at the pyramid. First the untrained people can't find jobs. Then people who can't program are unemployed. Then low level programmers get outsourced. It's great that this hasn't reached your level yet, but it's bad form to gloat about it to others.

Re:Speak for yourself.

[tommck]

I'm not meaning to gloat. I just think that people bitch and moan about a lot of things in this country as if they're entitled to it. You're not entitled to have a high paying job. It's called a "job market" for a reason. You're basically gambling on your career choice. If it doesn't pan out all that well, you have to roll with the punches. Life sucks! Move on!

Ahh, nostalgia...

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh yeah. Old Monk rum, and Coke in glass bottles (which MUST be returned!). Cold Kingfisher beer in shady basement hotel bars with hot greasy chips....

Can I study abroad in India again? :-)

I'll save you the time

[lone_marauder]

If they hire guards to prevent beggars from accessing the economically developed areas that coders work in, it's not Communism.

Of course, they also don't have the DMCA, Ken Lay, or the idea that only corporations can own things, so they don't have whatever we (U.S.) call Democracy, either.

best... interview... ever

[Anonymous Coward]

sorry, couldn't resist

Re:Step ???, there is NO step ??? !!!

[Anonymous Coward]

8. They all turn fat and lazy and die off from heart disease.
9. YOU LOSE!!!

Re:Code moankey Indians

[LauraScudder]

Chandrasekhar won the physics Nobel prize in 1983 for predicting neutron stars. Read about it here. He was born in Lahore, which was part of India, but is now in Pakistan, and his bachelor's degree was done in Madras, which is in modern-day India.

The wealth of nations

[rumblin'rabbit]

Adam Smith addressed this more than two centuries ago. The wealth of a nation is not it's currency or gold bullion, but its productivity. Large bank statements don't represent wealth, people sweating over a hot terminal do.

Higher moral road?

[GQuon]

take the higher moral road

I understand what you mean, and don't entierly disagree with you either. I'm just asking: What's immoral about giving jobs to Indians? Some Americans lose their jobs, and that they go to people with lower living costs and lower demands.

If it happened to me, I would think it sucked. But I wouldn't go so far as to call it immoral. So many people are saying "No, we should give them decent jobs, not hand-outs". (India not the poorest country in the world, but still.)

Re:Higher moral road?

[frank_adrian314159]

If it happened to me, I would think it sucked. But I wouldn't go so far as to call it immoral.

Neither would I. But I would call it happening to large numbers of (once) relatively well-paid citizens a dangerous economic and political strategy.

Re:Higher moral road?

[JustAnotherReader]

I'm just asking: What's immoral about giving jobs to Indians

The imorality comes from laying off Americans and killing off American jobs and destroying the American tax base and damaging the American economy when there are other cost cutting measures available that they are not considering.

Education V/S Cost of Living

[dkaimal]

The discussion here has been centered a lot around software professionals. But the Indian educational system "Churns" out a lot more than that. High technology professionals like Nuclear Scientists, Space Researchers, Bio Technologists etc., have existed and excelled for years on salaries probably a tenth of what they would make elsewhere. I personally know quite a few people who hold PhD's in nuclear physics or genetics and have worked as researchers for over 30 years and still earn around $6,000 a year. And they manage a reasonably good life on that, and dont find too many reasons to complain (or to sell their work illegaly abroad).

Engineers and Doctors abound in India and a person earning $12,000 a year lives out a very "comfortable" and upmarket life. In some ways it is even better than what the same person would make in the US earning like 70K or so.

So, by Indian standards a "fresh" grad being paid $6,000 is like an amazingly large sum, which their parents, despite having probably much higher qualifications and work experience couldnt ever imagine making.

Having said that, it is also true that education and quality teaching is much less expensive in India that elsewhere. That probably accounts for why you dont have a lot of high quality teaching in Computer Science in India, because not too many people would want to earn a lot less by teaching. That probably also explains the seemingly lower quality that some "fresh" grads would have.

I wrote a GA to learn people-skills for me.

[waxmop]

My genetic algorithm has evolved to the point where it goes on dates with two women on the same night, plays golf with the boss, and gets coffee from the foxy chick at Starbucks because they had a fling after the Phish show last October.

Now if only I can get it to dump its ruleset into ASCII format...

Computer Science in India in 2500 BC!

[ominous_barbarian]

Not totally related to the outsourcing topic but India used to be doing pretty well in computer sciences and math before the barbarians came and messed us up, check this out: http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathemati cians/Panini.html "Panini should be thought of as the forerunner of the modern formal language theory used to specify computer languages. The Backus Normal Form was discovered independently by John Backus in 1959, but Panini's notation is equivalent in its power to that of Backus and has many similar properties. It is remarkable to think that concepts which are fundamental to today's theoretical computer science should have their origin with an Indian genius around 2500 years ago. "

Re:Enjoy it while you can..

[JavaLord]

cut out the "submenu" part in the urls.

http://www.tancredo.org/issues/submenu1/issues-edu cation.htm

doesn't work but

http://www.tancredo.org/issues/issues-transportati on.htm

works. I have to have a talk with their webmaster.

Geek guitar songs

[arnie_apesacrappin]

From the responses:

The ones who play guitar know pretty much the same songs

What songs do geeks that play guitar all know? Being a geek and a quitarist, I'm wondering if I'm missing out on songs I should know how to play. A short list of the songs I play would include:

• Stairway to heaven
• Dust in the wind
• Brown-eyed girl
• Ain't Talkin' `bout love
• Runnin' with the devil
• Welcome home (sanitarium)
• Sweet child o' mine
• Love song
• Enter sandman
• Smells like teen spirit
• Plush
• Outshined

of course, there are several others but those are some of my favorites. Any other geek-centric songs?

Re:Geek guitar songs

[arnie_apesacrappin]

Being a geek and a quitarist

Hopefully before anyone else points this out, I meant guitarist

Proof that anitlibertarianism gets scored down .

[Anonymous Coward]

In fact it is anti-libertariansism and
truth that gets scored down here on Slashdot.

Critics of Libertariansism are the real victims
of mods-on-crack.

Oh I see.

[bad enema]

So I guess the more accurate question is, who gives a shit about New Zealanders and Australians? Pipe down, you're distracting the important people of the world.

Re:Oh I see.

[Tackhead]

> So I guess the more accurate question is, who gives a shit about New Zealanders and Australians?

Obviously, you've never talked to a sheep.

Downside of outsourcing

[glinden]

I thought this was particularly interesting.

• Q: I'd like to know how long it will be before Indian tech professionals start forming startup companies to compete directly with their American corporate masters using what they have learned from them.
  
  A: It's already happening. Like mad.

By outsourcing, US firms are creating their own future competition. While this happens in the US as well, intellectual property protections are weaker in these developing countries, increasing the risk.

At a minimum, US companies should be careful about outsourcing any work that they consider to be part of a competitive advantage for their firm.

Where's India going to get the money?

[BlackHawk]

Next question (asked by Indians I spoke to): "Where is the government going to get the money?"

I was asked to pose this one to Slashdot readers. Consider it posed. Plenty of Indians would like to know the answer.

And they're asking us... why?

Honestly, why do they want to know what our answer is going to be? If they're asking for advice, I hope that it's realized that for many of us in the US, the last thing we feel like being is charitable with financial advice for a country that is currently one of the beneficiaries of our lost jobs. I could just as easily answer their question with the same comments that appeared in a Wired magazine article a few weeks back, and which I responded to in an open letter in my blog: "Do what you're supposed to do. And don't worry about the fruits. They'll come on their own." Not very satisfying advice, is it?

Having said all that, I'll surrender up an observation for the Indian IT force; take it for what it's worth, which might be much or little. One of the major reasons why America got to be where it is today has to do with the spirit of its founding, in that those who came here and spread west did so in the pursuit of that which they couldn't have achieved back in England, or in the more established of the colonies, and then the States. They were willing to throw off virtually everything in an effort to reach for the brass ring, overturning centuries of "that's the way it's done" in favor of "this is what works".

So long as you have your caste structure, so long as you still use your rivers as open sewage culverts, so long as you still engage in the outdated, outmoded cultural imperatives that have made corner ultrasound machines available to women who want to check the sex of their foetus so they can abort girls and give birth to boys... well, let's just say you're going to have a very, very rough time finding the real strength of a nation determined to better itself. Innovation... Trying something new...

When India's people are ready to do that, and stop worrying about what class someone was born in, they'll be ready to "do what it takes". Until then, no amount of money will work.

I'm sure I just ruffled some feathers. Don't worry; they'll smooth back down as soon as you've convinced yourself that I'm just a bitter American watching his livelihood evaporate, who's finally getting what all Americans deserve, after all the years that our government has mucked around with the rest of the world.

Re:Where's India going to get the money?

[Tackhead]

> Having said all that, I'll surrender up an observation for the Indian IT force; take it for what it's worth, which might be much or little. One of the major reasons why America got to be where it is today has to do with the spirit of its founding, in that those who came here and spread west did so in the pursuit of that which they couldn't have achieved back in England, or in the more established of the colonies, and then the States. They were willing to throw off virtually everything in an effort to reach for the brass ring, overturning centuries of "that's the way it's done" in favor of "this is what works".

Interesting. Reading the interview with the Indian IT geeks, I had exactly the same thought.

I came to a conclusion opposite to yours, however: The Indian geeks interviewed in that example are the very embodiment of the work ethic that once made America great.

If, as it appears to me, that work ethic no longer exists in North America anymore, then Indian companies (and Filipino companies to which Indian grunt-level work is outsourced) are gonna be the place to invest in the next decade.

Indians: You're welcome to take "my" job the day my employer decides you can do my job faster, better, and cheaper than I can. Because when that day comes, you'll have earned my job. Rock on!

And that stands regardless of whether I end up keeping my job, goofing around on my Playstation-6 in the mansion I bought with the returns from my investments in transnational corporations, or on a park bench with a sign saying "Will Code For Food".

Re:Where's India going to get the money?

[BlackHawk]

And that stands regardless of whether I end up keeping my job, goofing around on my Playstation-6 in the mansion I bought with the returns from my investments in transnational corporations, or on a park bench with a sign saying "Will Code For Food".

Ah. I take it you don't have a wife and children. You'd hardly be so blaise' about it if you were going to be joined on that park bench by them. In Wisconsin. In the winter.

And investments? You *have* any? I did, once. All gone, now, and I don't begrudge that so much; playing the market is like gambling anyway.

Re:Where's India going to get the money?

[Tackhead]

> Ah. I take it you don't have a wife and children.

Correct. I'm not interested in acquiring either one, and even if I had a wife, I don't have enough money to adequately fund the raising of offspring. I'd therefore choose not to reproduce, even if I had a spouse.

> And investments? You *have* any?

I do, however, have investments. Having no children leaves me with plenty of disposable income to invest as I see fit. :)

Anyone could have made an easy easier 50% by buying the semi-random basket of stocks that make up the NASDAQ 100 index, symbol QQQ, or 22% by investing in the S&P 500 (SPX).

You could have made an even better return if you'd realized that not only is the economy doing well, but that the right time to invest is often when the bombs start to fall. Bombs falling mean the elimination of uncertainty, and with the uncertainty eliminated about when the inevtiable war would begin, traders could refocus on the growing economy.

Look at archive.org's news headlines. Every day the UN seemed to gain the upper hand, indicating "peace" (as in, a prolonging of the uncertainty), the markets dropped. Every day the headlines reflected the US's increasing willingness to ignore the UN, the markets went up.

The exact bottom of the market was within 72 hours of the first bomb's drop, and coincided precisely with the news media touting "quagmire" as the fastest mechanised infantry advance in military history stopped for 12 hours to refuel.

In short, the UN and the punditocracy got it all wrong, as they usually do. Following the pattern set during Gulf War I, the week of trade immediately following 9/11, Gulf War II was yet another case in point that periods of war and uncertainty are more often than not, the best buying opportunities an individual investor will ever see in his or her life.

I still have no use for a family, but if I trade the next couple of wars as well as I did the last ones (I missed 9/11, but I caught Gulf War II), I'd probably have enough money to acquire and support one.

Trading is a great game. Money's just a way of keeping score.

Wipe your own ass.

[mosel-saar-ruwer]

The next long term threat being the disease that wipes them out and the rest of the world due to their govt's poor health care system.

But the idea is that it's not your government's responsibility to tend to your personal hygiene.

People who look to their government to wipe their asses for them are hopeless.

Re:Wipe your own ass.

[Anonymous Coward]

People who look to their government to stop outsourcing and get their jobs back are hopeless.

And the argument goes on... :)

Re:Wipe your own ass.

[Anonymous Coward]

actually they wash their asses in india. this is true.

Speaking as a Bengali

[dancingmad]

I must say that, though I can't speak for India proper, everything said here jives completely with my experiences in Bangladesh from the family compounds to the auto rickshaws and the beggars (indeed, both my mother and father just sold their "family compounds" in the last few years).

The impression I got in Bangladesh was that IT and programming were do-able ways out of poverty (or even the country) for lower middle class people. Most upper class people didn't consider programming (though my kid cousins for example, loved chatting on IRC) since they could go to college in the U.K. or America if they so chose.

I think the reason for it seeming like an easy out for them is two-fold: One, hardware, even over there can be gotten relatively cheaply (though many of the machines are ones we'd consider ancient). The other is that software costs next to nothing and is readily avaliable. When I was over there in the summer, one could get Longhorn betas on CD, which a cover and the whole shebang. Secondly, unlike say the Chinese, any Indian who goes to school knows a smattering of English. Many people in my parents generation went to religious/missionary schools (my parents, both Muslim, went to Catholic school) and English was, of course, required there.

Also, money can truly get you around in the country and the rules are easily pliable (I remember our driver talking one of the older militar guys into letting us go down the wrong way on a one way street in Bangladesh). But people will try to jip you left and right as well.

Again, this was a fascinating article!

Cricket

[kinko]

Roblimo said: "While I was visiting, for the first time ever plans were being made for Cricket matches between the Indian and Pakistani national teams,..."

Heh. The Indian and Pakistanis have of course played each other many times in cricket. When people say "the first test", they mean the first test in a series of 3 or 5, not the first ever test.

Do what we americans do

[EriDay]

Most people I talked to believe government is the only hope; that egovernment and other government projects are the only way to develop a sustainable local IT sector.

Next question (asked by Indians I spoke to): "Where is the government going to get the money?"

I was asked to pose this one to Slashdot readers. Consider it posed. Plenty of Indians would like to know the answer.

Do it the way we americans do: Tax cuts for the wealthy!

Seriously, I'm not sure now is the right time to ask the USA how to use government projects to fund things.

Minimum wage laws for U.S.-based companies

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdotters are quick to pronounce the benefits of the free market and free trade to developing nations as justification for not implementing "protectionist" policies.

But if this is the justification, then their position is not very convincing.

If we current pay rates of outsourced and otherwise U.S. based companies can benefit developing nations this much, then if to benefit them is our goal, we should implement a minimum wage for these arrangements which will maximize the benefit to these developing countries.

This minimum wage should be the balance point at which the maximum number of employees in these developing nations will be benefitted.

That is, the cost of outsourcing with this minimum wage should be just enough so that there is still economic benefit to outsource.

Say, a savings of 2%-5% in costs.

This will maximize our benefit to developing nations.

Corporations have no "right to profit". If they want to profit, they do so on our terms.

These are my terms.

We own Microsoft.

We own IBM.

We have the capacity to control them and restrict them in any way that we see fit.

We are the people.

They are just fictional entities existing in concept only, with no rights.

Re:Minimum wage laws for U.S.-based companies

[sadler121]

Though I might have balked at this idea a few weeks ago, it does sound conceptually good. A minimum wage law would still incite free trade. Though it would also raise the stander d of living in said country (India etc.). Eventually supply and demand will balance the wage out so that other countries workers (India Programmers as an example), would begin to demand higher salaries, and when these salaries start to cut into the corporate profits, the companies will outsource again, the circle will start again until the world has reached an achievable equilibrium where salary and such is equal through the world.

Slashdot International anyone?

[Anonymous Coward]

How about a new section for International topics?

Geek girls?

[phorm]

And the unmarried ones had the same complaints about never meeting appropriate girls, too.

How is the proliferation of geek females. It seems that from some of the comments there is at least a "trendy" female technoculture. How many are true geeks, the type that like video games, linux, or other such things?

I know that it's hard to meet true geek girls around here... and I don't mean date I mean meet - I meet lots of people and even dating isn't too much an issue. Does such a population and the current tech boom mean an increase in female geekculture?

Beware, if the answer is yes... you may just get a whole hoard of US geeks "insourcing" themselves to India

Free Trade vs. Job Outsourcing

[tabdelgawad]

'Job outsourcing' has become the buzzword of every one who is, or claims to be, concerned with the US employment picture. Last week, N. Gregory Mankiw, the chairman of the US council of economic advisers, committed a cardinal sin by declaring that "Outsourcing is a growing phenomenon, but it's something that we should realize is probably a plus for the economy in the long run". Both republican and democratic politicians asked for his head (just do a search on 'mankiw' in google news).

But Mankiw is right (notwithstanding the old adage that in the long run, we are all dead!). There's not one dime's worth of difference in principle between 'outsourcing', which many hate, and 'free trade' which seems to have become the acceptable norm in American politics. Outsourcing is simply the extension of free trade from the goods markets to the service markets. It represents a shrinking of what economists call the 'nontradable sector', goods and services that are by nature are difficult/impossible to trade. Any defense of free trade policies (and there are many convincing ones) applies equally well to job outsourcing.

I don't mean to be callous about job losses. It was regrettable when the buggywhip makers lost their jobs to technological advances. It was regrettable when auto workers lost their jobs in the 80s to the Japanese carmakers. And it is regrettable when US programmers lose jobs to their Indian counterparts. But life goes on, the US employment picture will improve, and the complaints about 'outsourcing' will disappear until the next spike in US unemployment a few (hopefully many!) years from now. It's the way free trade works.

Re:Free Trade vs. Job Outsourcing

[rbird76]

The problem with this is not that we should be exempt from the system we impose on/encourage for others, but that the question "where next" doesn't have a good answer. Buggy whip makers probably spent some time learning to perform their trade, but I'm guessing that it didn't take eight or ten years. The jobs changing hands now are those requiring lots of knowledge, both specific and general. The time spent learning to compete in a specific segment of the knowledge market can't be spent elsewhere. The time that jobs using that knowledge require to be good is time that can't be spent learning skills to get another jobs or a job in another field. The jobs being sent elsewhere now require a lot of investment (financial and time) at them to be be able to do them; the jobs the people left behind are likely to be suited for require large inputs of time and education to learn. People who get laid off are thus likely to have lots less money for a lot longer time than previous jobs lost to other markets.

In the Wired article, the antgonist asked the question, "What comes after knowledge?" While I don't think protectionism is a good idea, I don't have any sort of answer to that question. The market asks a lot of education and training from the people who want jobs, and if those people can see their jobs go elsewhere, the logic in the investment of those people in knowledge goes away. Knowledge as a commodity is interesting, but probably not so much for those producing it.

Re:Free Trade vs. Job Outsourcing

[tabdelgawad]

Let me suggest an answer to "What comes after knowledge" using a hypothetical situation. Suppose an entrepreneur claims he has developed 'technology' that generates code of equivalent quality to what is being written at half the cost of human programmers. Many current programmers would find themselves out of a job, and there would be substantial turmoil in the programmer labor market. But how many people would call for a 'ban' on this new 'technology'? How seriously would these people be taken? Would such a ban be useful for the US economy as a whole? (of course, 'technology' here is outsourcing, but could just as easily be a new advance in Artificial Intelligence! This example is liberally adapted from one used to justify free trade, but I can't think of the original source for attribution)

The fact is, 'technology' has been causing this kind of labor market turmoil since the industrial revolution. And it's not true that lost jobs in the past didn't require a huge knowledge investment; I'm sure it took quite a bit of expertise and knowledge for a worker to put an automobile together before Henry Ford invented mass production. But I doubt we'd argue that mass production wasn't good for the US.

So in addition to the main point in my parent post, that outsourcing and free trade are hardly different, I'd add that outsourcing/free trade can always be reinterpreted as 'technological progress', and when people advance arguments against one, they should be willing to advance the same arguments against the other.

Re:Free Trade vs. Job Outsourcing

[Anonymous Coward]

You're not strictly apples to oranges, and so not sociologically relevant. Coach whip makers lost out to an entirely new technology, just as abacus makers will eventually lose out to PC's. Not a significant portion of the economy in any case. American auto workers losing out to Japanese ones is closer, but still ignores the cost of shipping and retailing, that the Japanese had to surmount. IT outsourcing is new in the history of humanity. It is as if the Egyptians had discovered slavery. There is no competition possible. With lost of IT jobs goes loss of IT knowledge and IT experience, and students to pursue the IT careers. Overseas outsourcing, having lower fixed costs and minimal transfer costs, is a new slavery paradigm. Paying living wages to Indians what would be slave wages here, the net effect is still the same. If you're not a US slave, then you're unemployed. Multiply that by call centers, human resources, nursing referrals, we've even had remote robotic medical operations being conducted by overseas surgeons! No, this isn't something that'll just blow over. This is The Dinosaur & The Asteroid kinda stuff. The balance or node-point will come when social costs of unemployment in the US, and decrease of discretionary income as salaries plunge, offsets or meets the profits of cheap overseas goods and services. At a 1:10 cost ratio between them, and given America's dysfunctional government social programs versus fat corporate profits, we can expect a Depression-era "floor" on this issue. If manufacturing goes to China, or cheaper, and IT goes to India, or cheaper, only plumbers will have jobs, and fighting tooth and nail for those!

Re:Free Trade vs. Job Outsourcing

[Anonymous Coward]

The argument is that the Buggy whip makers would learn a new trade and get a better job.

There is a problem with that argument. What are a bunch of software geeks supposed to do once the jobs are outsource to India? Probably write virii and unleash to the internet? Get an aerospace degree? Get a license to trade stock?

I guess the big flaw in service economy is that all the service is now outsource-able to India for dirt cheap labor. Maybe the new economy in the next 5 to 20 years is stock trading?

Re:Free Trade vs. Job Outsourcing

[ivrcti]

The single important point your missing is geography. The whip makers could learn a new trade primarily because those new jobs were accessible within their political borders. However, in the outsourcing mode, even the new jobs will likely be in locations unavaible to the recently unemployed.

list seem more like old classic rock to me

[Anonymous Coward]

Most of my geek friends are really into fingerstyle folk / jazz guitar instead of rock. I had classical training so prefer playing that (but listen to other styles).

importing jobs, exporting poverty?

[Anonymous Coward]

India is poor and that's why it's taking jobs from the U.S. That situation (of rank poverty) isn't going away soon (unfortunately, for what is a quite an amazing country), and that + it's vast population, means there are going to be takers for most jobs at any level of pay. And that means it's primary export to the service industry world-wide will be poverty (and likewise China's primary export, to manufacturing industries worldwide, for probably similar reasons). I found this writeup about India at a URL in the article, and I paste the text for the enlightenment of /.'ers everywhere. It's is quite a complex country, and hard to describe.

From http://www.cityreference.com/india/:

"Unity in Diversity" was the slogan chosen when India celebrated fifty years of Independence in 1997, a declaration replete with as much optimism as pride. Stretching from the frozen barrier of the Himalayas to the tropical greenery of Kerala, and from the sacred Ganges to the sands of the Thar desert, the country's boundaries encompass incomparable variety. Walk the streets of any Indian city and you'll rub shoulders with representatives of several of the world's great faiths, a multitude of castes and outcastes, fair-skinned, turbanned Punjabis and dark-skinned Tamils. You'll also encounter temple rituals that have been performed since the time of the Egyptian Pharaohs, onion-domed mosques erected centuries before the Taj Mahal was ever dreamt of, and quirky echoes of the British Raj on virtually every corner.

That so much of India's past remains discernible today is all the more astonishing given the pace of change since Independence in 1947. Spurred by the free-market reforms of the early 1990s, the economic revolution started by Rajiv Gandhi has transformed the country with new consumer goods, technologies and ways of life. Now the land where the Buddha lived and taught, whose religious festivals are as old as the rivers that sustain them, is the second-largest producer of computer software in the world, with its own satellites and nuclear weapons.

However, the presence in even the most far-flung market towns of internet cafes and Japanese hatchbacks has thrown into sharp relief the problems that have bedevilled the subcontinent since long before it became the world's largest secular democracy. Rooted in the monolithic hierarchy of caste, poverty remains a harsh fact of life for around forty percent of India's inhabitants. No other nation on earth has slum settlements on the scale of those in Delhi, Mumbai and Calcutta, nor so many malnourished children, uneducated women and homes without access to clean water and waste disposal.

Many first-time visitors find themselves unable to see past such glaring disparities. Others come expecting a timeless ascetic wonderland and are surprised to encounter one of the most materialistic societies on the planet. Still more find themselves intimidated by what may seem, initially, an incomprehensible and bewildering continent. But for all its jarring juxtapositions, intractable paradoxes and frustrations, India remains an utterly compelling destination. Intricate and worn, its distinctive patina - the stream of life in its crowded bazaars, the ubiquitous filmi music, the pungent melange of beedi smoke, cooking spices, dust and cow dung - casts a spell that few forget from the moment they step off a plane. Love it or hate it - and most travellers oscillate between the two - India will shift the way you see the world.

Geek, Slashdotter,Indian,Gamer

[cOdEgUru]

All of the above. And I been in US since the last six years.

I am glad that finally geeks from my part of the world have had a chance to talk on Slashdot. I have always thought there would be a general disdain towards geeks from that side of the world, owing to various constraints such as culture/accent/life style etc. But thanks to Rob, I am glad to see that this community has finally realized that its no different from the people half way across the world.

I saw a thread about democratically elected communist govt. My state is one of them, its called Kerala and it is towards the southern most tip of India. Mostly literate citizens for whom politics, art/literature and food is probably the most important three facts of life. As it should be. I wouldnt dare call it a communist govt, more like a Socalist party.

I had a buddy of mine from good ole TX visit India with me an year ago and even work there with a team of programmers for over six months. It was quite a culture shock for this dude but he enjoyed every minute of it. And yes, Indo-chinese food can kick Chinese food's arse all over china! And please, North Indian food isnt all its made out to be. If you generally like to eat good food, try South Indian cuisine..thats where curry started...

I hope this Q&A gets posted right on top for a few weeks so that everyone here who thought (atleast for a while) that their counterparts in India were code monkeys and devil worshippers, ought to be proven wrong :)

Myth of Canadian health costs

[thirty-seven]

. . .you can bring up the example of Canada and its national health insurance, for which Canadians pay higher taxes than U.S. residents.

From Alice in Universal Health Care Land:

MYTH: Americans would have trouble getting in to see a doctor. FACT: Canadians, who live in a single-payer system, see their primary care physicians more often than Americans do now. There are more doctors per capita in Canada than there are in the United States. Yet the cost of physician services in Canada is one-third less than it is in the United States. About half the cost savings in Canada comes not from offering less care but by reducing insurance overhead and paperwork. The rest of the savings comes from allocating money to pay for expensive equipment so there is less excess capacity and duplication. Ninety-six percent of Canadians prefer their health-care system to the U.S. model.

MYTH: Patients wouldn't be able to choose their own physician. FACT: According to experts, a single-payer plan would give patients more choice than they currently have in most cases. The United States is the only developed country heading in the direction of less choice. Other countries are building more choice into their systems.

MYTH: The United States has the best health care in the world. FACT: The United States has higher infant mortality, higher surgical mortality and lower life expectancy than Canada. The United States has a much lower rate of access to primary care doctors than Canada. Canada has the same acute care bed-to-population ratio as the United States. Patient satisfaction, quality of care and outcome of care in Canada equal or exceed that in the United States, according to the U.S. General Accounting Office. For this lower quality, Americans pay 40 percent per capita more than Canadians do on health care.

MYTH: There would be waiting lists for surgeries and high-tech procedures, which is why Canadians come to the United States to get health services. FACT: The United States has waiting lists for specialty care, too. Canadians rarely come to the United States for health care. Less than 1 percent of Canada's health budget goes to paying for care Canadians get in the United States. Canada's waiting-list problem stems largely from underfunding, which is being corrected now. Waiting times would likely be no longer in the United States than they are now, because we would still spend much more than other countries do on health care and still have many more specialists and capacity.

Re:Myth of Canadian health costs

[Rotten168]

Give it up. Universal health care was rejected by referendum in Oregon and Massachusetts, two of our most liberal states. Why? Bottom line, 83% of the population has suitable quality health care, and we don't want to pay higher taxes for lower quality care.

Re:Myth of Canadian health costs

[ozborn]

Ahhh, but US citizens do pay more for health care (as a % of GDP) and I can tell you that Alberta and BC have higher quality health care than Kasier Permenante in Georgia from personal experience.

Re:Myth of Canadian health costs

[Rotten168]

Ahh but my point still stands. Your health care system was rejected by referendum in our two most liberal states.

To counter your anecdotal evidence I know of no Americans that go to Canada for health care (prescription drugs either, although I know you have cheaper drugs) but I do know Canuckians that come to the US for health care.

Two different systems with different benefits.

Re:Myth of Canadian health costs

[ozborn]

A single payer health care system may have been rejected (to be honest I'm not familiar with the details of the proposals in those 2 states) but that doesn't mean that the reasons for rejection were sound. You say Americans don't want their taxes raised to pay for lower quality health care (who would!) but is that this is not the case that this would occur. Anecdotal evidence aside, you are aware that Canada spends less as a % of GDP (includes all private and public monies) than the United States on health care (in both absolute and purchasing power parity terms)? This implies that health care is cheaper in Canada. In terms of quality, you can look at various measures of public health (like infant morality, life expectancy) and Canada edges out the US in both those areas (see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2149799.st m#table)
Unfortunately I couldn't find more comprehensive stats than that.

Re:Myth of Canadian health costs

[Rotten168]

Yeah I dunno about using those stats for quality of care, it seems like comparing 2 health care systems is pretty impossible. But I think at the very least it's safe to assume most people wouldn't get *better* quality, and they really don't want to pay higher taxes to get the the same/worse care. We have too many FICA taxes as it is.

It's smarter to try and get the cost of health care down with mixed-market-based solutions (public and private), IMO.

But hey, they'll have another referendum on it in 2004, maybe it'll pass.

Autonomous Collective

[Concerned Onlooker]

ARTHUR: How do you do, good lady. I am Arthur, King of the Britons. Who's castle is that?
WOMAN: King of the who?
ARTHUR: The Britons.
WOMAN: Who are the Britons?
ARTHUR: Well, we all are. we're all Britons and I am your king.
WOMAN: I didn't know we had a king. I thought we were an autonomous collective.

Taken from here.

And

[Sycraft-fu]

If you look it up, the U.S. definses itself as "Constitution-based federal republic" which is an accurate descripton, not a democracy.

Older computer users?

[kkovach24]

After reading about government officials that are afraid that the keyboard might shock them, a thought occured to me. How accepting of computers and technology are the older generations in India? I know there are plenty of older folks here that just don't want to have anything to do with PCs and new technologies related to PCs. Are there similar feelings in India and how might that effect the insourcing?

Offshored, Not Outsourced

[Nintendork]

Now our interviews are being outsourced

Actually, it was offshored, not outsourced. These are two completely unrelated terms. Offshored means that the operation moved to another country. Outsourced means that another company was hired to perform the function.

For example, Microsoft outsources some of their tech support to Convergys. Both companies offshore to India for some of their tech support.

The only similarity is that both offshoring and outsourcing save the company money. Outsourced workers get paid less and get less benefits becuase they work in a call center environment (As close to a sweat shop as you can get in the industry). When offshoring, the savings are even more dramatic due to economic differences.

Generally, outsourcing in the U.S. or Canada is transparent to the consumer and is a proven method to save money, even in the long term. Offshoring on the other hand is a relatively new venture with few (If any) long term studies. As a techie that has worked with Indians, I have no qualms about their ability. It's not like we're genetically superior in the U.S. The only problem I have is that when I'm not screwing around on Slashdot, my time is valuable and wasting it trying to talk to someone who has poor verbal English skills is a kick in the crotch from a company we do business with. I would have had us purchase something other than Dell if it weren't for their recent move back to the states for business support. Their move back to the states tells me that they got scared as companies took their high dollar purchases elsewhere and/or threatened to do so. Another problem with offshoring, I believe, is that the majority of people in the states think that someone in a poorer country will be less able to help them which gives Indians an unfair stigma. In the end, we'll see how decreased customer satisfaction impacts the precious bottom line and that in turn will dictate where the jobs are.

I know this blurb doesn't count when it comes to programming jobs. Sorry, but the only chance programmers have to compete against offshoring is to have employers that believe they're worth the relative premium or hope that legal issues (IP, malware, espionage, goverment secrets, etc.) scare the jobs away from offshoring. Personally, I'm ignorant of the laws in India that protect corporations. Maybe someone could comment on this?

Sorry my response to your comment is on a serious note. What started as a simple correction turned into a complete package of my thoughts on these corporate trends.

-Lucas

What LUGs need is

[Anonymous Coward]

more Jugs!

Dumb question about caste

[AppyPappy]

How can you tell to what caste a person belongs?

Re:Dumb question about caste

[Screaming Lunatic]

By their names. Just like the Cooper family makes barrels and the Smith family made caste iron pots. If you are a certain caste you were (are) expected to work a certain job.

Re:Dumb question about caste

[Anonymous Coward]

Do indians inherit the family names of their parents?

Re:Dumb question about caste

[Anonymous Coward]

there is a lot of variation in this, some indians take up the father's surname, some the mother's, others dont take up a surname, yet others take up the name of the place and some take up their parents first name etc. india is too culturally diverse to follow one system.

Nitpick

[clawsoon]

2500 years ago is 500 BC, not 2500 BC.

Knowledge in India exploded at about the same time it did in China and Greece - a hundred years either side of 500BC - and for the same reason: Urbanization. The age that produced Panini also produced Aristotle and Confucius.

Andrew Klaassen

there is a word 4 u "swadeshi"

[Anonymous Coward]

since this puke has been there................
how is it he does not know about "swadeshi".....

there is a word 4 u "swadeshi"

Yet resistance to everything foreign lingers more
strongly in the Indian psyche than that of the
Chinese, possibly because of the promotion of
swadeshi meaning national self-sufficiency, and
swaraj, or self-rule.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/FA31 Dj 03.html

Government is the only hope?

[dwrugh]

"Most people I talked to believe government is the only hope; that egovernment and other government projects are the only way to develop a sustainable local IT sector."
That explains why there is no sustainable local IT sector...everyone's waiting around for government to start it up. Come on!!! Commercial IT in the US happened despite government, not because of it. There are plenty of very successful Indian-born entrepreneurs in the US. I want to know why their entrepreneurial success isn't happening in their homeland. My guess is that it is the dark legacy of socialism and the bureacratic obstacles to innovation that is holding back growth in India

Is the middle class a closed economic system?

[gnalle]

A few questions:

Does the economic boom of Bangalore have an influence on the average living standard of the typical citizen of Karnataka? Here I refer to a citizen which does not belong to the 15% middle class.

Is the indian middle class a closed economic system or does a member of the indian middle class spend a large percentage of her money on stuff which is produced by the lower classes?

Is there a major difference between the communist and the noncommunist indian states in this respect?

Re:Is the middle class a closed economic system?

[gokulpod]

I have never lived in Bangalore, just visited it once or twice. The money flowing in there does have some effect on the living standards of the locals. So rentals are up, prices of most goods are higher, and in general there is more circulation of money. The state of Karnataka itself is quite big though, and I am not sure how much of a ripple effect is taking place. The money from middle classes does trickle down a bit, but in general Indians are not spendthrifts, so they would rather put all their money in a bank. The states which are governed by communist parties (West Bengal and Kerala once in a while), have also started following the examples of Karnataka and Andrha Pradesh (where Hyderabad is located). Like China, communism has evolved to capitalist socialism :).

Re:Is the middle class a closed economic system?

[The Cydonian]

Does the economic boom of Bangalore have an influence on the average living standard of the typical citizen of Karnataka?

Let's take this 'boom' into perspective first. There's massive hype:- while I wouldn't exactly call it 'lying', the Indian IT companies have been certainly misleading when they talk about their success. There have been layoffs even as late as 2002, and what's more, all the big IT companies have changed their salary structures:- close to 30% of a software engineer's salary is now variable, depending on boom-and-bust cycles. Net result: profit statements are no longer an accurate measure of how the industry has been doing as a whole.

The most damning thing however, at least as far as I'm concerned, is that the fact that outsourcing per se has not been the shining star in whatever percentage growth we've had, either in GDP terms or in forex terms. Remittances by Indian workers internationally, and other star sectors, such as pharmaceuticals, agriculture, automobiles and telecom, are more to blame. Look up any article on the outsourcing 'boom'; all of them uniformly talk about what will happen in 2007.

Is the indian middle class a closed economic system or does a member of the indian middle class spend a large percentage of her money on stuff which is produced by the lower classes?

I don't know if I read your question correctly, but I'm assuming you want to differentiate between things made by, say, corporations (whether Indian or MNC), and by the lower classes generically. It's an interesting distinction must say, especially given the fact that the farming community in India is, after all, the world's largest private enterprise and has, mostly, avoided corporatisation.

In a sense, I suppose you could argue that other sectors are also like that; for all its impressive record, the pharmaceutical industry, for instance, is mostly a motley group of itsy-bitsy factories spread all over the landscape. The same for the diary industry (which is another of those success stories), and as Roblimo will probably post on newsforge, it's also true for the outsourcing sector. (Trying to differentiate between 'outsourcing' and 'product'-based companies)

Things are, however, changing.

Is there a major difference between the communist and the noncommunist indian states in this respect?

Yup, major. :-) Note, however, that only Kerala has had this sort of success; the other Communist-active states, West Bengal and Tripura, haven't had as much success in raising QoL metrics as Kerala has.

[The irony of course is that gokulpod, despite being from Kerala, doesn't seem to know much about this.;-) ]

First time ever???

[Whatever Fits]

While I was visiting, for the first time ever plans were being made for Cricket matches between the Indian and Pakistani national teams, with constant back-and-forth waffling by government people in both countries about whether the terrorism risk was acceptable. Last I heard, the match was going to happen.

Sorry. Just look at the word RESUME in the article. They have been having grudge matches for decades, they were called off only recently due to the excessive tensions on the border. My wife went to an India-Pak game in Calcutta some years back and painted her face with the Indian flag. She is such a Cricket nut. Good game, but five days???? Wow. And no, I'm not Indian.

PeopleSoft to triple staff in India [ZDNet]

[stuffduff]

Alorie Gilbert CNET News.com PeopleSoft intends to add 1,000 workers to its staff in Bangalore, India, by the end of the year, accelerating the software maker's plan to tap the country's low-cost labor force.

Dumb Westerners?

[GCP]

Feel free to speak for yourself, then close your mouth.

The overwhelming majority of internationalization is done by smart Westerners, most of it by Americans (though Europeans have made huge contributions).

I've worked in Japan and Korea. They couldn't care less about internationalization when designing their own code. Of course they want Western code to be internationalized so they can use it, too, but that's just more pressure on Westerners to internationalize. If the Japanese decide to modify the code themselves, they'll simply add support for Japanese rather than trying to internationalize it.

And even Europeans don't usually have much interest in real internationalization. They've thought of "international" and "European" as synonyms for so long that as soon as it works in the major markets in their neighborhood, they declare it "internationalized" and quit. (Trying to talk to them about really internationalizing is then likely to result in perplexed looks and comments like, "unlike you Americans, we think internationally, so we've already internationalized yadda, yadda....")

It's the multinational US companies that have driven most real internationalization because as soon as they decide to leave their domestic nest, US companies are just as interested in Asia as in Europe. Developers at IBM, Microsoft, Oracle, and Apple, for example, have the importance of things like Unicode drummed into them. Not so for developers that I've seen at NEC, Fujitsu, Samsung, Siemens, Bull, or Ericsson.

Interestingly, though, the governments of India and Pakistan have both recently joined the Unicode Consortium as full members.

Re:Dumb Westerners?

[Telastyn]

Sigh. As someone that has done internationalization for a large company you've all heard of, it was a *joke*. [though my point that Indian developers might first take part in a project to make software easier to use by their countrymen was not]

Re:Dumb Westerners?

[Anonymous Coward]

Amrericans do most internl. jobs !!! I'm flabbergasted, apart from IBM no American company and/or project leader that I have had contact with cares at all about internationalisation, but to add insult to injury they quite often explicitly refuse to help or allow such work to be performed/contributed to their source or whatever and quite often sabotage such work. Anyone remember the dork that "corrected" the English used in the linux source code a few months back, not quite the same thing but it shuld be rembered that more people use standard English than the USA version.

I worked for Unisys, one of the "clued up" American conglomerates that you mentioned, you could not even print out ISO characters using OS2200 (or OTR or whatever it's called these day's) much less anything else except by changing the firmware in every I/O hardware part in the line.

I would very much like to see anyone actually point me to a real internationalisation tool desinged in the USA, again outside of IBM. (kudos and appreciation to Big Blue for the great work they have done in that arena ever since 1977, they have stood up against other "more progressive" American companies time and time again, the basic Western ISO charset standard would not exist today if IBM had not firmly put their foot down in 1981)

And it's not just a historical issue, last time I had the usual argument about allowing for more than ASCII in a program text parsing was in December 2003!

Popped a few bubbles, I'd bet...

[deanj]

This is one of the best question/answer postings in quite a while.

I really loved how the leading questions, particularly the "Quality of Life" one, were they answered with "Yeah, we're doing great!", instead of the "Help, help! I'm being repressed!" answer that the questioner expected.

These guys might get lower salarys than we do in the states, but they're doing fine. Same thing in the US, there are programmers all over the country working what would be considered "slave wages" if they lived in California, yet they're doing just fine, thank you very much.

Do I think the Indian programmers should get paid more? Hell yes, I do.... but even given that, from the answers that were given here, these folks aren't hurting.

As for the question posed: Where is the government going to get the money?

Well, it'll come in taxes. And it'll suck just as much as it does here.

Face it guys, the people doing the IT work over there are getting paid pretty well. I'm sure there are examples of being underpaid, even by their standards, but then again, we have that here too.

I particularly applaud that guy that built the homes in his village, was able to hire people because he had money, and how it contributed to their economy. THEY GET HOW IT WORKS! I wish more people here in the states did.

Again, GREAT POST!

Re:Question still unanswered....

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it true that the word indian swastika symbol refers to a humming sound that appeared when the world was created?

Pinochet [was Re:whoa] (OT)

[Anonymous Coward]

>You dork, whatever damage Allende did [...] can possibly justify what that bastard and his backers did.
>[rambling continues]
I wasn't justifing atrocities commited by Pinochets regime, only pointing out to that the greatgrandparents argument about a good democraticly elected communist government was absurd.
The fact for Pinochet is responsible for the death of other 3000 people (how of them were really communists who came from around the world to establish communism is our country, how many were just misguided brats or completly innocent bystanders, will never know becouse they didn't get a trail), does not magicly make Allende a good ruler.
The orignal posters logic was like this:
Pinochet is evil AND Pinochet overthrew Allende THEREFORE Allende was good.
That is obviously false eg.:
Castro is evil AND Castro overthrew Batista THEREFORE Batista was good.
The penultimate paragraph (starting with the letter BTW a commonly accepted acronym for "by the way") was remark indicating that the ECONOMIC policies Pinochet introduced were beneficial for Chile, it did not in any way express aproval of his person.
Hope that helps. You don't have to reply, I suggest you print this out and read a few times, then take a few days to think it over.

Re:Pinochet [was Re:whoa] (OT)

[IgnoramusMaximus]

he penultimate paragraph (starting with the letter BTW a commonly accepted acronym for "by the way") was remark indicating that the ECONOMIC policies Pinochet introduced were beneficial for Chile, it did not in any way express aproval of his person.

Let me clarify it for you since you are having difficulty with history and present economic situation in Chile: Allende came to power because Chile's economy was screwed up beyond belief with huge masses of dispossessed and starving poor working in near-slavery conditions and most of the country was being owned by US based cartels. Pinochet was a response of those who want to own everything on the planet. His job was to set an example as to what happens should the unwashed masses get uppity and try to get a better deal. He did his job splendidly. In the process he restored the "natural" order of things to Chile, and even improved it so that the new flashy "economicly viable" elite is the only thing visible to uneducated doofuses who use the FOX channel as their news source. In the meantime the disparity between the elite and the huge numbers of the working poor has grown. Overall the rich got very rich and everyone else got double-screwed under Pinochet. And thats his economic legacy that you claim was beneficial to Chile. Dont get me wrong, I fully understand where you stand. If it is good for the few rich up top it must be good for the country, right? After all only the rich count when one speaks of persons, the rest are merely wage-slaves, no? This is the very same way of thinking these darlings of "conservative thinking" like Regan and Bush embodify.

The fact for Pinochet is responsible for the death of other 3000 people (how of them were really communists who came from around the world to establish communism is our country, how many were just misguided brats or completly innocent bystanders, will never know becouse they didn't get a trail), does not magicly make Allende a good ruler

I was reading this with total astonishment, until I realised I am talking to a Bible-thumping troglodite who would gladly take part in Crusades if he were born in middle ages. I can almost hear that madman with a torch: "The communists are Evil and the Spawn Of Satan to be tortured and and burned on the stake so that the purifying fires can clense their souls!". Right. So it is quite all-right to murder, rape and pillage as long as the victims are "communists" or "misguided brats". To most foreigners in the world it is quite astonishing that a country professing so loudly the rule of law and democracy is on one hand supporting vicious thugs and on the other invading other countries "pre-emptively" on made-up pretexts. Not so to me, if there are people in the world like you who are inane enough to think the way you do. If there is something to be ever wished for by all sane people on this planet is that the likes of you never, ever, manage to take charge of the US completely for they would end the humanity with an uspeakable bloodbath trying to purge it of what your indoctrination tells you is "evil".

I wasn't justifing atrocities commited by Pinochets regime...

This thin veneer of civility was completelly torn off by your statement above.

.. only pointing out to that the greatgrandparents argument about a good democraticly elected communist government was absurd.

Which happened to be completely correct as what is a "good" or a "bad" government was for the Chilean majority to decide in a democratic process and not for US based corporations, a hired thug and a bunch of greedy land owners in Chile who conspired to destroy that government when it didnt suit them instead of waiting for next election where their notion of "good" could have been defeated again. By your insane thinking, "good" is what YOU believe to be good, measured by your own yardstick (capitalist wealth, the stock exchange index, private hospitals, 60% of people with no healthcare, etc) and any other measurement (as

I need to find a job...

[Greyfox]

Where I can telecommute full time... then hire a team in India to do the work. I could pay 4-5 guys and still live comfortably, doing nothing.

Re:I need to find a job...

[Anonymous Coward]

With a good, marketable product idea you don't even need the job. Seriously.

Even better...

[devphil]

...instead of Brazil, train your Java monkeys on the actual island of Java.

"Where is the government going to get the money?"

[El]

Can't answer that, but there are a lot of people on slashdot hard at working trying to make it cost less money -- commoditization of the computer industry may ultimately be the greatest help for development of Indian IT.

You're missing the point.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's all about short term gain & greed. By the time some Indian guys get a company going, management will have made their pile of money and ran. Just like they could give a shit about the environment. They'll be dead before the results hit so what do they care.

Move to India?

[sadler121]

Seriously, I know a lot of /.'ers have joked about moving to India to find jobs but it sounds like its not a bad place to live. (All be it you'd have to go through the worries of another 'cold war' type scenario with Pakestian). The US being so screwed up as it is, I am deffenitly pondering living in another country, and nothing short of a revolution would bring me back to my native land. It sounds like me, with an as an American with a grad degree in CS could do fairly well there. ;-)

Republic

[jcrash]

I think a republic is state of government where the people do not directly elect the leader.

The United States is a Democratic Republic, meaning the people get to vote, they just don't directly elect the leader.

If you are reading this and thinking that in the United States, the people DO elect the leader, you only need to look back 4 years to see that is not true. Bush received less votes than Gore, but Bush is our "leader."

Re:Republic

[Larry David]

I think a republic is state of government where the people do not directly elect the leader.

The United States is a Democratic Republic, meaning the people get to vote, they just don't directly elect the leader.

If you are reading this and thinking that in the United States, the people DO elect the leader, you only need to look back 4 years to see that is not true. Bush received less votes than Gore, but Bush is our "leader."

The British don't directly elect the leader of government either, but that doesn't make Britain a Republic. That said, you make a good point. Now we know why the Republicans are so called.. they want to get into power without being voted in ;-)

Well, Japan is out

[Zilfondel2]

Because nobody speaks english. They have their own tech channels that rival ours in Japan.

Re:This is how I would interpret it

[Anonymous Coward]

"We know what's going on everywhere, same as you."

I would interpret that as we are as informed (or misinformed) as you?

Do the rich really pay their fair share of taxes?

[dougnaka]

If the average tax per citizen is $50k/year and you pay less than that, then you pay less than your share. So shutup about any tax cuts for the wealthy. The fact is that the weathly pay most of the taxes. Read this article, titled " Income Taxes - Do the rich really pay their fair share?"
here

I'll spoil the article by telling you in advance that they pay far more than their share.

PS, vote no to big government, no to government intrusions into our privacy, no to government breaking the laws, and no to taxes, vote libertarian

One Geek, One World

[Anonymous Coward]

Geek culture is worldwide. It's not exactly the same everywhere, but (so far) I've observed it first-hand in Mexico, Trinidad, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and now India, and I assure you, there are many more points of similarity than differences between its various "branches," at least in my (limited) experience.

If there is going to be world peace, maybe it will have to come from the geeks, not the politicians.

Japaneese ?

[apankrat]

KAME project comes to mind, and its IKE key manager racoon in particular. It may not be the most up-to-date IKE implementation, but it's certainly one of the cleanest and well-designed ones compared to other major OpenSource IPsec projects.

1 b (1) is the applicable one for this context.

[Ungrounded Lightning]

1 ... b (1): a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law

This is the definition applicable to this subthread, where it is the institutional structure of the government that is being discussed.

In such a context it is the definition of the technical term, rather than other common uses of the same word, that matters.

The downside of shipping jobs overseas

[Gary Destruction]

The United States has more tornadoes and severe thunderstorms than any other country in the world. We also have earthquakes, mudslides, forest fires, hurricanes, tropical depressions and storms, floods, blizzards and on occassion, volcanic eruptions. But we also have NOAA, NWS, Storms Prediction Center, National Hurricane Center, two GOES satellites, the Red Cross, the Emergency Alert System and Doppler radar. And when things get really bad, both state and federal governments can declare disaster areas so that disaster victims can receive aid.

What do countries like India have to prepare for severe weather and other natural disasters? It is possible for typhoons (hurricanes east of the International date line) and tropical cyclones to hit India and surrounding counrtries. There's also flodding and possibly earthquakes. When you leave the USA, you don't have Uncle Sam there to help you pick up the pieces and not all countries are as disaster aware and prepared as we are.

Ethnicity?...

[Dr.Dubious DDQ]

Geek culture is worldwide. It's not exactly the same everywhere, but (so far) I've observed it first-hand in Mexico, Trinidad, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and now India, and I assure you, there are many more points of similarity than differences between its various "branches," at least in my (limited) experience.

Here's a mostly-tongue-in-cheek question - should "Geek" be considered a legitimate "ethnic group"? It DOES seem to be a better indicator of cultural values and attitudes than skin color or nationality (i.e. a dark-skinned Geek from somewhere in Africa, a medium-toned-skin Geek from India, and a light-skinned Geek from Finland tend to have a LOT more in common than, say, a "white" orthodox Jew and a "white" neo-nazi skinhead, which the US Census bureau, at least, might tend to lump together into the same category...)

Re:Ethnicity?...

[Anonymous Coward]

Indian == Aryan
Jew/Arab == Semite
Finnish == Finno-Urgic

Arrrrrrgh!

[PseudononymousCoward]

Why, why, why did you paste that link?

Until 5 minutes ago, I was a George Bush-supporting, evangelical Southern Baptist. Really.

Now--I'm Jacques Chirac.

Why...why.........

Work Hours

[AnnaSaru]

40hrs a week for Techies in India . I am afraid not accurate at all. I worked in the IT industry there for 6 yrs. Average 50hrs per week, I'd say on a flat salaried basis - no Overtime was paid. Last time I visited (4 months ago), I checked this out specifically from my chums in IT. If you are in one of the top companies that has a culture of 'you have a life outside work' - then you *may be* talking 40hrs per week, else please feel free to put in 50hrs per week, anything else could be misconstrued as slacking , or as having too much of a good life. :) I have heard this from more than one friend that went to Bangalore for a visit.

No it won't

[DrCode]

...most of the coding will be done outside the country.

Coding is not the software equivalent to building a car. That would be burning the CDROM and packaging it.

What mundane coding tasks would need to be assigned? Writing a linked list? Nobody has to do this anymore.

Suppose Company A hires an architect, and then 10 outsourced programmers, and then an additional manager to oversee the whole operation. Suppose Company B hires two top-rated software developers who know how to design and code. I'd put my money on B.

Re:No it won't

[tommck]

Feel free to attempt to survive that way... From your post, I would guess that you either 1) don't have that much industry experience, or 2) have worked in small, immature shops or scientifically-oriented shops (which tend to stress coding, rather than design)

Mundane tasks?

How about implementing a Customer Service? Implementing CRUD (Create, Retrieve, Update, Delete) operations for the database record related to the Customer and assembling a Customer object in memory from that data?

The majority of business applications these days are nothing more than reading and writing data to and from a database and putting it on a UI. The real work is designing the components so they can be reused from one department to the next.

Nobody writes Linked Lists anymore or anything else like that. It's the brain dead plugging together of basic components at the module level that is not challenging and can be done by people with basic experience with the language.

T

Reservation of Jobs

[Anonymous Coward]

Its not just seats but jobs too. All government / semi-government jobs including the mammoth railways have about 50 percent reservation for people of lower castes.

For colleges, in addition to this reservation,there is reservation for girls (atleast in my state) and in minority colleges - run by an administration from the minority classes - this leaves about 15 - 20 percent of seats for 'upper class' students.

What is noteworthy is that this reservation has nothign to do with how much you or your family make every year. You could be millionaires but if your last name is a in a 'lower caste' list, you can get in with a GPA of 2.5 while someone wil 3.9 might be left out in the cold because his name is not on the list. Reservation should be on the basis of economic capability and not last names and castes if upliftment has to occur.

Its quite funny because very soon these 'upper classes' will become really poor for the lack of an education or a job!

I assume you are a troll?

[Anonymous Coward]

I assume you are a troll?

I will go on a limb here, as I am not very good at geo-politics but this is not too hard to figure out.

I believe Iraq fit the description well, the economy was capitalist based, a dictator imposing "export tax" on oil to be paid in a Swiss bank account! Said oil harvested using the oil giants of this world.

Totalitarian Capitalist used to be easy to find in "banana republics" like the old Congo or the old Haiti where a "president for life" (totalitarian) welcomes west oil, fruit [Dell Monte], sugar and alcohol [Crown Royal] businesses from the west to build factories and exploit the local people. The president and his junta take pay cuts in the form of "export tax" in offshore bank accounts.

Re:I assume you are a troll?

[kalidasa]

Actually, Iraq was further to the left: state-run oil company, for instance. The fact that none of the benefits trickled down from the state to the people was typical of totalitarian "socialist" countries. Published Ba'ath ideology is largely socialist, though not communist.

There are only so many countries

[Gorimek]

So in other words, the only way to compete with India is to become exactly like India, or to get India to be exactly like us. But the latter won't work, because our corporations will just move the work to some other country. That means the former will be the more likely outcome.

There is a finite supply of "somewhere else"'s. India itself is 15-20% of the worlds population. Once it and China (20-30%) starts to reach western levels, there aren't all that many poor people left in the world.

The same thing happened within the US and other rich countries. Certain pockets got rich and expensive, so companies went looking for labor elsewhere, and after a while they ran out of elsewheres, and standards rose everywhere.

One way of looking at it is that the bottom line is that you get to consume as much as you produce. The rich world consumes much because it produces much. If the poor world starts producing more, it will be able to consume more, but that doesn't mean the rich world will stop producing.

Re:There are only so many countries

[Anonymous Coward]

One way of looking at it is that the bottom line is that you get to consume as much as you produce. The rich world consumes much because it produces much.

To some degree this is true. However it's also important to note that although the rich world is very productive, it currently consumes more than it produces, thanks to the availablity of cheap overseas labor. That state of affairs is obviously not sustainable long-term.

Very Good Points..yet...

[khrustalicious]

Very good points. I agree with much of what you said; however, I'm not sure about the distinction of price dumping in regards to services. Your example for instance, about the Indian in the U.S., why does it have to be an Indian in the U.S? The service is delivered to a company much like a product would be; it doesn't matter where the service was performed (or product made.)

I agree that if the service was available for $300 to other Indian companies, but the government then subsidized that service to be 'sold' cheaper to other countries, that might be price dumping. So technically it's not price dumping, you are right.

However...I'm not sure I would agree that India has a fair wage policy. In fact, there is a very interesting (and related) article about the caste system, and how many Indians live Found Here

At what point does it not become morally wrong to accept such services? IF (and I'm not saying they do) their government restricts wages or otherwise keeps goods and services unnaturally low-priced, does that make it okay for US companies to accept the services of someone who has no other choice, even if they are making more? What if our services come from some IT sweatshop in a country where the workers are forced to work unreasonably cheap? Is it still okay to accept such services? I'm not asking you personally, obviously; I'm just curious as to those who keep screaming, "free trade! Global economy!"

If US companies/liberal economists are so keen on making the world a better place and bringing up the standards in other countries, then pay them comparable salaries to what they would get if they were in the United States.

Re:Very Good Points..yet...

[gordguide]

" ... Your example for instance, about the Indian in the U.S., why does it have to be an Indian in the U.S? ..."

Because if he is in India he's working at fair market value, so it's not dumping. Remember the question he posed in his post: " How is this not like price dumping? "

"... but the government then subsidized that service to be 'sold' cheaper to other countries ..."

I don't understand what you're talking about here. Dumping is done by public companies without any money from their governments.

Subsidies are another matter entirely and are, by the way, comparatively easy to prove while Dumping is difficult. Are you saying the Government of India subsidizes the wages of programmers? I'd need to see something to back that up, if you have it.

Fair wages are simply the prevailing local wages; they will tend to be high enough to attract a sufficient number of qualified workers but no more. From most accounts, US firms operating in places like India tend to establish pay at a rate that is just a bit higher than the local averages for similar work.

I don't really see what the caste system has to do with outsourcing. If by some miracle there is a shortage of skilled workers in a country with 150 million post-secondary educated workers, then companies will lobby to end the caste system to allow more people to take higher education.

Until then, that kind of revolution will have to be up to the other forces of social change in India.

Outsourcing is very different from run-of-the-mill trade issues; under our current concept of free and fair trade it's perfectly OK.

Whether that needs to be addressed is certainly worth discussing, but I wouldn't be holding my breath.

Neither Business nor Government like it when there's a skill shortage and both are pretty much OK with a little unemployment in the IT sector.

Remember it was the IT worker shortage of a couple of years ago that got companies looking to India in the first place; without that they probably wouldn't have bothered to begin with.

Options

[swillden]

There are plenty:

• Private school. Not actually as expensive as you might think. My son was doing very poorly in public school for a variety of reasons, so he now attends a private school that costs about $3K per year (it's interesting to compare that to the nearly $5K per year the public schools spend per student). We do have to drive him to and from school every day, the facilities are run down, the computers are old and the playground doesn't have the coolest new Big Toy. However, the classes are small (8-10 students) the teachers are excellent and dedicated (my son's teacher gave us her home and cell phone numbers, with instructions to call any time, day or night), the curriculum is aggressive (he is in fourth grade and mastering material not usually covered until junior high) and the kids are well cared for (they even get hot freshly-prepared breakfast and lunch, not the pre-packaged crap passed out at the local public schools). Worth EVERY penny.
• Home school. In most areas the public schools will work with you to make sure your children have access to all of the same extracurricular opportunities as the rest of the kids, and will help out with teaching materials as well. It's not that hard to construct socialization opportunities as well.
• A different public school. Check out the nearby schools and see if one of them would work out better. You will probably have to arrange for transportation to and from school every day.
• Raise Holy Hell. Tell the teacher that his/her approach is wrong and inadequate and that you want your child taught differently. If the teacher doesn't shape up, go to the principal and request a transfer to a different teacher. If the principal doesn't agree, go to the district and the school board. If you still don't get what you want, look at the other options above and considering running for the school board or other political post to fix things.

If you want your child to have a good education, it is within your power. You do not have to accept whatever your child's current teacher wants to do. Doing it is not necessarily easy and if none of the above options solve the problem you might want to consider moving somewhere that your child can get a decent education. In my case it was relatively easy -- our local school is pretty good as long as your child fits the required mold. Two of my children seem to be getting along fine there and it didn't cost me much to address the fact that my oldest didn't fit in.

Oh, and one more benefit to private schools: It's unbelievable how nice it is to be treated like an important customer rather than an irritating obstacle. There's a subtle but important difference in attitude between a teacher who realizes that you pay his/her salary directly and one who gets paid by the state/county. My other two children's teachers are competent, and nice people who like to see interested parents, but the tone is "This is how I approach my classroom and your child's education and how I'd like you to work with me" rather than "This is how I propose to work with your child, what do you think?"

Re:Do the rich really pay their fair share of taxe

[Dr.Dubious DDQ]

Somewhat off topic, but I find myself downright amazed that neither of "the two parties" (bleh) has strongly suggested cutting taxes in half for any entity that makes less than, say, $100,000US/Year. From everything I see, it'd have very little direct affect on tax income (since the less-than-$100,000/year group only pays a small fraction of the income taxes) and yet be wildly popular with those of us in that category (who make a up a voting majority).

One might convincingly argue at the same time that the freed-up "consumer" money that would otherwise have gone to taxes would spur an increase in spending, thus further boosting the income of the "wealthiest 5%"...and in turn boosting tax income at the same time. Everybody wins (at least, you could easily 'spin' it that way).

So...why aren't they doing it?

P.S. Harry Browne's not running this year, is he? Does the Libertarian party have a candidate for the presidential race yet?

Philippines

[Anonymous Coward]

"They're leaving for the Philippines already. It's very disturbing for Indian programmers."

All I can say is,

GOOD.

See how it feels when it happens to you.

Gas Station

[Tremanhil]

I'm going to move to India and open a Gas Station/Convienience Store..

Big enough pool for everyone to play in

[raider_red]

I got laid off last year like several million other U.S. tech workers. I was able to find a new job in about four months. Nearly all of my co-workers who got laid off also found jobs within three to six months. Talking to others I've met this year, I've seen stories very similar to mine and my former co-workers.

The moral of the story: Yes, there is short term displacement and pain, partly attributed to off-shoring, but in an economy as innovative and dynamic as ours, those who want to work can almost always find work. It may take some personal adjustment, and you may have to make some dramatic changes in lifestyle, but in the end that's all just stuff, and you can live without most of it. There's a lot of work to be done, and in the end, there's probably enough to employ almost all of us, and a couple of million overseas.

Flawed arguments

[randolfe]

Note, I generally agree with your conclusions. However, just to strengthen that position, it is important to point out a few errors:

Point (1) US Software companies do tend to exist in *relatively* higher cost of living zones. This has more to do with the fact that innovative business industries, be it biotech, software, defense, etc., are necessarily located in large urban centers within close proximity to appropriate research-oriented universities.

Point (4) your conclusion is false. Outsourcing from Santa Clara, CA to New Vienna, OH is not equivalent to outsourcing to Mumbai India. Mumbai enjoys the same advantages as stated in Point (1), only at a proportional cost advantage. Note that, within India (or any other foreign geography for that matter), the same dynamics as listed in Point 1 are at work, *relative to that country*.

Point (5) you assume that the sole reason for choosing a city/region/state of residence within the US is economic. Although a leading reason, it is not the only, or even the top reason. The top ranking reasons are consistently measured to be family, "hometown" (birthplace), and marriage.

Further problem with Point (5) is that the US has a very efficient capital market which serves to rapidly erode cost of living advantages. That is, any movement of jobs from Silicon Valley to the Midwest almost immediately results in respective adjustments of the costs of living in those areas. The same dynamic is not present between foreign countries, at least not directly and immediately, for many reasons including inefficiency of capital flow.

Stating that software companies "caused their own problem" [sic] is not enlightening or factual. In fact, this statement is almost so vague as to be useless.

Interest rates are very irrelevant to this argument, unless you wish to make a complicate argument about currency cross rates, balance of debt, and convertibility. You state that value is not equal to price regarding real estate. If this were true, then you could instantly profit by exploiting the difference. Of course, price is the value the market places on the house, so your conclusion is false. Further, as housing prices are regionally driven markets, the *regional house price* is already adjusted for the demand in any area irrespective of interest rates.

The problems with foreign outsourcing--or rather offshoring--are complex, both economically and politically. What I generally explain is the difference in *advantage*. Previously, say from the 1960s through the mid 1990s, foreign markets to which the US offshored (permanently relocated) jobs enjoyed a *comparative advantage*. This simply means that, while perhaps cheaper, the benefit of relocating jobs from the US to the foreign market was only a relative advantage. Although a large percentage of US manufacturing jobs shifted outside our borders, the US benefited from resource reallocation, productivity increases, and innovative advances.

Since the 1990s the advantages have become *absolute advantages*. This is primarily fueled by the massive increases in the efficiencies of global capital markets. Remember that prior to 1989, China was largely a closed capital market, India was a closed consumer market, and the world's third largest trading block heavily restricted its trade with the first and second largest (USSR+, USA, EC). In the subsequent decade we saw the explosion of freely flowing global capital. The net result, in the present, is that emerging markets, once they develop relatively comparative education systems, technology/knowledge labor, and domestic markets which reward innovation, they move from *comparative advantage* to *absolute advantage* status.

It is not possible to compete with a market that enjoys an *absolute advantage*. Of course, there are extrapolative economic arguments that 'all will balance out in the end'. This is flawed, however, as it naively ignores the fact that, even if global capital markets are nearly perfect in efficiency, polit

Re:Enjoy it while you can..

[Rakthar]

You (or your friend) are overlooking the fact that all those ethnic groups you mentioned were native to a piece of land, and homogenous within the group.

In the United States, no one has really been here over 225 years, and a lot of the people who live here immigrated here by choice. While there seems to be more and more of a nationailstic streak as the country matures, it's still light years better than in any other country.

An immigrant/outsider is integrated into US society when they speak english and have a job. While there will be discrimination and racism, the fact that most anyone living in America is considered an American first, foreigner second is a good thing. Try moving to Germany as an American, and wait and see how long it will take until you become a "German." You will never live to see the day - but your kids might, if you marry well.

I can tell you from personal experience, in the balkans at least, that while the groups were organized into a greater unit, the homogenous core groups (Croats, Serbs, Slovenians, Macedonians) still remained, which is why the flames have been fanned. However trendy it may be to assume that blacks stick together because they're black, and so on with whites, America is probably the most integrated country in the world - though there is much, much room for improvement.

Colombia.

[incom]

I would that colombians would have better inate skill dealing with Java.

Bush Season!

[Anonymous Coward]

Shoot me now! Shoot me now!

The mod system works, kwitcherbitchen

[spun]

Stupidity gets modded down. Jerk faced rage filled morons get modded down. Occasionally something inane gets modded up, it isn't perfect, but for the most part, things modded +4 and above are SMART. Whether I agree with them or not, they are good comments and deserve to be modded up. Just because someone doesn't agree with your pet idea doesn't make them an idiot, m'kay?

Re:The mod system works, kwitcherbitchen

[Anonymous Coward]

Um. Wait. Two thought mods get auto-modded up:

1) Liberal Establishment thought.
2) Right wing thought (including "Libertarianism").

Thoughtful moderates (whose thinking more closely
allies with the way the majority actually think)
get slapped down. This reflects the ingrained
censorhip patterns of the ruling classes. The
Man can stand dissent and his minions do his work.

Very effective troll, dreamchaser

[Anonymous Coward]

To all the other posters who responded (you know it's coming...) YHBT. YHL. HAND.

+5 WTF? Re:"expensive" books?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyways, sorry bitch, but making papier machee monkeys to celebrate martin luther king day is not in the budget. A ditto machine and a fucking number 2 pencil was all we needed in my day.

Exactly what are you trying to say?

Re:Enjoy it while you can..

[Grishnakh]

I think the USA is going to fragment between the extremely rich and the politicians they control, and everyone else.

My other theory is the USA is going to break into two countries, along the Mississippi River. Those east coast states are dragging us down anyway, so it'd be nice to let them fend for themselves.

Just a small clarification

[oldjedi]

Rob dear friend i think you made a small error. The 'comparative poverty ...scholarship' was a comment from Techspan executive who also stated the 'direct link between US money and economic uplifting' since he paid the daily laborers. As for myself, I am part of the Bangla L10n team at www.bengalinux.org and participated more about why the Govt needs to get its act together into boosting the economy. Thanks for getting the diverse views across. -Sankarshan

Shot down in flames

[BigBadBri]

OK- ny worry was shot down big style.

That's good in one way (it's great if India can absorb all those jobs), but it's shit for the rest of us.

I was hoping to sow disquiet in India, to make outsourcing less attractive - maybe I'm on a loser.

Frightening

[BigBadBri]

Imagine an army made up of the hardest 5% of candidates.

Imagine an army full of hard bastards that you can't beat.

That's what sort of army we're talking about - and 5% of a billion people is a 50 million man army of hard bastards.

I'd recommend Pakistan backs off gracefully.

Re:Frightening

[md358]

Imagine an army made up of the hardest 5% of candidates.

I dunno.... if India is really that poor, then they probably have to reject a lot of potentials who are suffe from defects relating to growing up malnourished (vision, joints) or don't meet their standards of literacy. I've seen pictures and footage of Indian soldiers, and sure they look tough (tougher than me at least), they still look kinda skinny compared to US and UK counterparts.

I'd recommend Pakistan backs off gracefully.

India could mop the floor with Pakistan - population and technology advantages would see to that. Since they're both nuclear powers now, I hope I never find out if that's true.

D'oh! Good point

[spun]

Wonderful bit about the ingrained censorship patterns. The Man does just as you say. I may have been a little optimistic, but it seems that the thoughtful moderate actually stands some chance of having his/her views modded up here. Maybe it's just my low user-id and catchy .sig, though ;-)

$100 a month

[Anonymous Coward]

There goes all the white and blue colar job. I guess if I were starting a company and hiring workers, that sound really good. Imagine, making widget with labor costing pennies. In 5 to 10 years, probably all software development in US and other countries will be outsource to India for dirt cheap engineering.

Re:Enjoy it while you can..

[md358]

This sort of behavior that we Americans are starting to display now with the lack of action/reaction within our government can prove as an ideal source for a dictatorship.

Fascism consumes itself and eventually falls. Call me a romantic but I think humanity wins in the end. Yes, there is the possibility of nano/nuclear/ice-age/meteor/whatever ending life on our little rock. But to paraphrase the Greek philosopher Epicurus: when life is over, it's over; you'll feel no fear, regret or pain. Enjoy life while you have it and the greatest pleasures come from the simple things.

Service econmy of the 90s

[Anonymous Coward]

I hate to say this, but the US economy moving from industrial/manufacturing economy to service economy. What we find out now, is that service economy can be move to India for dirt cheap labor.

What will the US economy be in the next few years?

Re:Enjoy it while you can..

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the USA is going to fragment between the extremely rich and the politicians they control, and everyone else.

Notice how when a candidate from either party speaks, they are quick to talk about the difference in race. However, if any of them ever brings up difference in class they are attacked right away for pulling out "class warfare" and it's dropped. Really, it's the politicians worst nightmare that the low class and lower middle class get too big, wake up and stop being sheep and stuff gets nasty.

Re:Step ???, there is NO step ??? !!!

[Anonymous Coward]

10. Move on to the next tribe.

No, they agree in practice

[Burz]

A Communist party that is elected to govern will favor socialist solutions to economic problems, and they may promote the forming of communes and cooperatives to meet certain ends. But they do not exist in a vacuum and neither do their economics; look all across Eurasia (esp. at the local level) and you'll see this.

Your definition assumes political and economic extremism where purity is valued above all else.

I find it heartening that the Indian government not only identifies and fosters desirable industries, but is paying for disadvantaged people to earn a degree. Of course, American free-market fundamentalists currently benefit from this little bit of socialism.

Why anyone would want just one system or the other is beyond me. By themselves, socialism and capitalism both failed.

Re:No, they agree in practice

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

Why anyone would want just one system or the other is beyond me. By themselves, socialism and capitalism both failed.

It is my belief that you cannot have a mixture of systems for long periods of time. In other words, mixing things are unstable. A country like Canada is a capitalist country with some socialist ideals (so is most of Europe). Even USA isn't a pure capitalist nation. This is unstable in my view. It is my view that these countries will shift towards (pure) capitalism.

Observations seem to indicate this. For instance, Canada is shifting towards capitalism. So is USA. Socialist ideals (like nationalized healthcare, schools, libraries, roads, energy, etc) are being privatized. At the rate capitalism is going, I imagine that everything (including schools, police, roads, and parks) will be privatized within 50 years.

Maintaining an unstable system (as it is now) seems impossible. Governments have horrible fiscal problems (even a rich country like USA has $3trillion debt). Attempting to have socialist principles like high wages for employees, worker health and safety regulations, and environmental regulations, seem to be under threat from capitalist forces (eg. global free markets, aka globalization).

So to get back to your question of why someone would want a pure system, well, it is because other possibilities are unstable. Socialism is an enemy of capitalism, and vice versa. Progressive taxes (eg. income tax), for instance, is viewed as evil by capitalists while socialists support it. One has to win. Socialism hasn't failed; neither has capitalism. One will win (or some new econopolitical system will win). My personal belief is that capitalism will collapse within 75 years.

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Re:No, they agree in practice

[2short]

I disagree - I think overly capitalist or overly socialist systems are unstable. Mixtures are essential. An overly capitalist system results in ever greater concentrations of wealth until those without any wealth form a vast majority that says "to hell with this" either at the ballot box or on the battlefield. An overly Socialist system will redistribute wealth so evenly that it will remove all incentives, nad then your economy eventually collapses.
The system that will keep going is one that balances these extremes: people can improve their lives by working hard/contributing to society, but they can't completely take over and just get steadily richer without doing anything.
You say one has to win, but I've seen politics in action: I think we can continue arguing over the proper balance of socialism and capitalism pretty much forever.

Linux Applications from India

[sgandotra]

India has also given to the world the First Financial Accounting Package on Linux fromthe region. Named Kalculate (www.kalculate.com) and certified by IBM and INTEL, it is available to users with fairly good response.
Gien proper industrial inputs, environment and encouragement, India can do a lot more than just typing the world's work.

Dude, the state paid for his education

[Burz]

Trickle-down effect turns into Run-down effect without coordinated efforts to re-invest in the community.

Re:Do the rich really pay their fair share of taxe

[EriDay]

I work for my money, so I pay 28% income tax, plus 12.4% social security payroll tax. For an effective rate of 40.4% (federal), plus 4% (state), plus 6% sales tax. The wealthy get their money from dividends and interest. They pay 20% income tax and effectively no SS tax since it phases out at $80,000 for earned income and doesn't apply to dividends and interest. Why do poor people pay have a rate twice as high as the rich? They should pay more. They have benefited more from our society than most. They have more to protect. They send lobbyists to Washington to make sure they get more benefits from the system.

No wonder your frame of reference is so narrow: You tell those who disagree with you to "shutup". If your taxes have given you the benefit of a public education, your teacher probably did.

Jingoistic clap trap

[Anonymous Coward]

So just out of curiosity
What kind of car do you drive? An expensive American built SUV or a cheap Honda or a slightly more expensive but better built Toyota? Where was your computer built? Your TV? Do you check for the Union label when you buy your clothes? Just wondering. Are you sure that it's the government's problem to solve?
People always think the problem is solvable by the government, that Uncle Sugar can just step in and wave a magic tariff stick and all will be well. People who think this need
A. A lesson in history. Start with the economic impacts of the Smott-Hawley tariff act. Also reference Nixon's Price and wage controls. American industrialization and the impact on the English economy. The tariff and industrialization questions in re the War Between the States. Also stop by the Natural History museum and ponder the dinosaurs.
B. A lesson in economics. Start with Adam Smith. Also examine the economics of Liechtenstein and the economic impacts of Prohibition. T. Jefferson's closing the ports prior to the war of 1812, etc.

Government can't control the situation. Short of cutting the transoceanic cables and shooting down all the comsats, nothing will keep information and service-based jobs from migrating. Short of sinking 90+ percent of the world's freighter capacity nothing is going to stop manufacturing jobs from migrating to the place of lowest production cost. And get it through your head. THESE ARE NOT AMERICAN COMPANIES! They are international firms. Tell IBM it has to stop sending American jobs to India and the top management will recharter in Bombay and you will fast remember that the I stands for International. Businesses have no loyalty to governments or nations, they buy it and build it where it's cheapest and sell it where it's dearest. Then understand this. These are not American jobs. They are jobs that need doing, but no place, and nowhere has it ever been written that they were guaranteed to Americans. For twenty years, from the end of WWII to the 1960s we enjoyed the enviable position of being the only real industrialized country on earth, on account of every other industrialized economy being a bombed out shambles. We had a real boom time, but as the industrial capacity of the rest of the world came back on line we saw our industrial quota slipping away to people with more modern plant and capacity. We had to learn to deal with that new world. We did it by building a booming service based economy, based largely on computer technology. Well that's had its twenty years of near monopoly too. Now we're facing the reality of a competitive world with people coming on line and communications interlinks building worldwide.
We had best learn how to deal with competition, because we're running out of clever ways to redesign an economy. Government controls are not the answer. To paraphrase Princess Leia "The tighter we attempt to close our fingers, the more things will be squeezed from our grasp". Life is competition, get over it. The dinosaurs formed a union too, but we little mammals cleaned their clocks anyway.

Meeting the appropriate girls?

[Musashi Miyamoto]

Why are they worried about meeting the appropriate girls? If they were smart, their parents would have already selected their future wives! :-)

Re:Meeting the appropriate girls?

[Anonymous Coward]

hmm, if you are in IT, india,
girls' parents would select you,
so not much trouble for geeks ;)

Well, all of this is wonderful...

[Anonymous Coward]

...but it's just a crying shame that the fuckers are absolutely HOPELESS WITH COMPUTERS!

Here's a tip, Ramjit: skimming the first two chapters of 'TCP/IP for Dummies', then getting an MCSE qual does NOT make you an IT expert.

Lowest cost bidder for critical code? yeah, right

[dizbero]

I used to work in the defense industry. Management suggested that we streamline (aka - reduce testing) FLIGHT CRITICAL CODE for one of the navys fly-by-wire aircraft.

The suggestion, although noble from a business profit/motive standpoint, didnt "FLY".

Today I work in the utility industry. Although this industry don't have to worry so much about rebooting the onboard computer at 30,000 feet, they are no less demanding about extremely high quality code/high quality data for decision support (relax - this code doesn't run their nuclear reactor).

But the main point is - not only do they want that high quality code, they also want it *extremely flexible* and *maintainable* by a local resource.

See DELL as an example - DELL pulled back its business call center / support business because of such a strong business backlash at the *LOW QUALITY* support and the language nuances.

You can offshore a childs toy, making widgets, or sewing clothing; code, on the otherhand, is great at putting pressure on the current troops, but in the long run, it won't work.

One advantage of living in India

[dhammabum]

Delhi has been continuously inhabited since about 1000 B.C., and in many ways life for some residents hasn't changed a great deal since then.

Some may be poor, but they do live a *long* time. ;-=)

Anarchism

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

DISCLAIMER: I'm not an anarchist... but I'm a leftist who is probably 30% anarchist. So take my thoughts for what it's worth... Also, if a group of people come together (organize) and plan for rules for everyone to follow, that would be government, albeit a small one.

There is something that people don't understand about anarchism: Anarchism isn't against rules per se! Rather, it is against AUTHORITY!!! You can have the same rules under anarchism as now with one exception: they must be VOLUNTARY. It is quite plausible under anarchism to have rules which say that you should drive your car on the left. That isn't against anarchism. What is, and this is important, is someone FORCING you (and your community) follow these rules.

In the scenario you cite, it would be against anarchism because of the following: "...plan for rules for everyone to follow..." This is totally against anarchism because someone (or some group) is making up rules for others!!! A similar thing may be allowed under anarchism IF people ALL agree to the rules for THEMSELVES. That is perfectly ok.

So to recap, if we VOLUNTARILY agree to rules, that's permissible under anarchism. However, if some group of people (you can call them intellectuals, politicians, business leaders, whatever) make up the rules on your behalf, it isn't anarchism.

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Philippines call centers

[foo12]

Call center work is not necessarily permanent. It is a burnout job in India just as phone "customer service" work is in the U.S. [...] and besides, all those jobs will go to the Philippines sooner or later, anyway, so why bother? [emphasis added]

I read this as I'm sitting in my company's customer service center in the Philippines. Our customer service reps here already have a loyal following amongst our customers. It's largely cultural: Filipinos place great emphasis on compromise and tactful, mutually face-saving resolution of any conflict. That cultural predilection goes a long way in handling customers, no matter what the issue. Plus the reps here are always smiling and singing; it seems silly but it's repesentative of the general attitude in this office.The customer senses it, and eats it up.

Fascinating.

[Goth Biker Babe]

Not only because I work with Indian Outsourcers but because I live and work in the UK and not the US. I have had similar conversations with US friends who are in the IT industry. I do not take home as much as they do but I have free health care, a pension, profit share and share options. I have five weeks vacation a year not including statutory days. Oh yes, and I eat a lot of curry as I live and work in an area of the UK where 25% of the population are Asian.

Communist parties in India

[Anonymous Coward]

Atleast, in the Kerala state of India, the Commmunist Party did follow "marxist communism" in their policies intially. Soon after they came into power for the first time, they brought out a land reform law wherein the higher caste people who held most of the land had to give them up to the farmers/labourers. I think this actually helped bridge the divide betwen the castes in Kerala.

Irish people like fighting?

[dwalsh]

Is this a stereotype of us? I was not aware of it. Let's see:

Number of countries Ireland has invaded in the 1000 years: ...

Gimme a minute here, I'm looking it up... ...

Zero.

Number of countries USA has invaded sinces its inception:

Oh, crap. It'll take a while to write these up...

Oh, and I doubt the number of homicides in Northern Ireland every matched say N.Y.C or other big US cities.

Re:Irish people like fighting?

[FreshFunk510]

Umm.. its' enough that Notre Dame's mascot woudl be the Fighting Irish.

Yes

[hetairoi]

Vinod Khosla met Scott McNealy and Bill Joy at the University of Califomia, Berkeley.

Re:Enjoy it while you can..

[BenEnglishAtHome]

...theory is the USA is going to break into two countries, along the Mississippi River...

If things got so bad that secession appeared reasonable to a large block of the populace, my guess is that Texas would withdraw from the Union first, forming a passably viable country. Over and above the economic and geographical diversity of the state, Texans cling tenaciously to the theory that they entered the Union retaining a right to secede. That's not true (although Texas does have a right to break itself up into 5 different states) but perception is a powerful reality and I'd expect Texans to boogie outta here long before all the Eastern Seaboard could get together to agree on anything.

and in the fullness of time...

[LifesABeach]

it looks like things have kinda worked out for folks. there's growing number of computer types in india, china, and the rest of the world. these other folks now have the ability to make, and grow their own computer systems. this is a good thing; and pro or con, everyday folks benefitted one way or another. maybe its time to stop extending h1b's and look to a new problem the world has that needs to be solved.

Re:Enjoy it while you can..

[Grishnakh]

The Eastern Seaboard doesn't need to agree on anything as far as I'm concerned. As an Arizonan, I'd just want my side of the country to decide to kick out the Eastern states. What do we need them for anyway? West of the Mississippi, even without TX, we have the most productive farmland in the world, a state with the 8th largest economy in the world by itself, lots of natural wonders and national parks, a giant entertainment juggernaut (Hollywood, though we need to kick out Jack Valenti), lots of military bases, UFOs, Area 51, etc.

What does the East Coast have? Except for NYC, all they have is a lot of decaying infrastructure and negative population growth in the northeast, lots of old cities full of crime and ghettos, and in the South lots of bible-thumping and a backwards mentality in general.

Too Many admins?

[TBone]

Very large?

I don't know, I don't think I consider 1 out of 6 (one admin for every 5 teachers) "very large". Every admin that's running copies, typing handouts, collating grades, and handling discipline matters is freeing up more time for the teachers to actually teach, and not cry about needing more prep hours in the day.

I have yet to find a public school around here that's actually staffed to it's "full" level. When I find one, I'll make an employee count and let you know what they're doing

Where is the government going to get the money?

[bob_jenkins]

Well I'll be. This might actually make sense. The way to get money into India to uplift the population is by giving money-holders outside of India something they want, in exchange for their money.

For example, big corporations outside of India want call centers and software engineers. So the government can pull money into India by making it easy for those outside corporations to hire Indians.

Somebody please read "The Republic"

[benjamindees]

You're right, that dictionary definition is complete horseshit, bordering on "propaganda".

I agree that the defining feature of a Republic is a separation of powers. Specifically, a separation into three powers: intellectual, military, and proletariat.

In the US, for instance, the Executive branch would represent the military, the Judicial the intellectual, and the Congress the dumb masses. Of course, in the context of the Federal gov't at least, 'dumb masses' would mean States and State leaders, but, nonetheless, a Republican structure.

As described by Plato, the Republic is a political system by which the intellectual classes use the military to subjugate everyone else. It was conceived as a way for the 'enlightened' to force the rest of us to be arranged in a way so as to effect our safety and happiness, or our best interests as envisioned by said 'illuminati', at least. Of course, as Plato also points out, the same general method can be used by any minority to use the threat of force to control a huge majority to almost whatever ends they deem necessary.

The fact that the US Republic includes some of the same safeguards as the Roman and Greek systems does not mean those features are inherent to a Republican system.

You forgot...

[benjamindees]

I was going to say that you forgot "Direct Democracy", but I guess that's what you meant by "Mob Rule" :)

I'm just going to make a few additions:

Anarchy -> Libertarianism -> Direct Democracy -> Representitive Democracy -> Republic -> Parliamentary Monarchy -> Fascism -> Dictatorship -> Absolute Monarchy

That's it. Screw /.. I'm done.

[Bloodmoon1]

And this will probably be one of, if not the last of, all my posts here. I'll still read and troll (god, I love the indignant responses to some of the things I've posted), but shit like this is the exact reason I don't care anymore.

You make a very valid point. You do it quickly and effectively. The same can be said for this post by jmccay. They may be a bit bitter, but it's still the fucking truth. A lot of Americans (myself, and apparently you two) have been screwed by corporations for the good of the bottom line we worked to build. And yes, we are quite pissed off about that.

And what do you two get for your posts? Modded Flamebait and Troll, respectively.

But that's not even the worst part. This is. pclminion says:

And you're blaming the Indians for accepting a job offer? People offer them money, and they take it! How dare they! Of course, you would do different.

And where's it at? +5, insightful. Well, in answer. No, we wouldn't code for minimum wage at best. So to review, by venting on a subject that has effected not just tech people, but those from many industries including manufacturing and customer support in the United States, at least 2.6 million people at my last count, you are trying to start a flame war or posting misleading information. But by saying those people are being hypocritical by saying they are pissed about losing their jobs (and who knows what else as a result), and assuming that they are willing to work for nothing, you get modded to +5.

And as Beatbyte said in a reply to that post, Businesses big enough to do the outsourcing are already too big to not be greedy. I would expect them to be. They're in business to make money. Not make people happy.

Exactly. They're there to make money, not to support the country that sustains them in any way so long as they can save a little bit more money for their CEO/CFO to embezzle or at least get paid 100x more than the average worker, which should be fucking illegal anyway. And this is why America is doomed to eventual failure in our current social set up. But hey, surely a large corporation and our government will take care of us when that happens, right?

So yeah. Fuck Slashdot. Fuck Slashdot hard in its ass. And while I'm at it, fuck America too. Fuck all the idiots like me who were brave enough and stupid enough to put our lives on the line to defend this fucked up country, either because we thought we could make a difference, or we just didn't know what the hell else to do, and who are now at best unable to find a job here after we were done, or at worst are dying in far away, fucked up lands so that Haliburton can make an extra $200 million next quarter. Fuck all the mother fuckers who convinced me to do this or that because I could make a few more dollars here or there. So fucking what? The dollar hasn't been the most powerful currency in a while now.

We have a total fucktard running this country. Gays shouldn't marry because it ruins the sanctity of marriage, because somehow a 50% divorce rate and every 3 time remarried couple fucking around on each other hasn't done that. Stem cell research should be banned, since it only promises to cure many diseases and heal many injuries. Fuck spending another 10% on NASAs 15 billion dollar budget over 20 years, because this planet will be just fine for all of existence and we'll never need to leave, ever. Not in 10 years, a million years, a billion years, or a trillion years, and besides, we need to spend $400 billion a year on defense.

Defense... what a fucking joke. We haven't been invaded in any meaningful sense of the word since 1812. Not defending a whole lot. And the broke ass Russians developed a hyper-sonic satellite killer missile that really bones the dumb assed Star Warz money-toilet.

And fuck the environment hard. Who needs clean air and wat

Re:That's it. Screw /.. I'm done.

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey man, why don't you move down to Australia? Your views on Governance and social justice are just the type that we respect down here.

Comparatively, we rock the house on social justice!! Our basic wage is 11.50, we have a fully fledged social security and pension system (that never cuts out, unlike your trashy one) and health cover is 80% subsidised (for most things). No school is sponsered by a coporation (dear god I can't believe you guys do that sort of thing), and you Uni fees average 4 grand a year. Plus our mass transit system is one of the best in the world, and one of the cheapest.

Environmentally we are still looking pretty good, and once we boot our current PM (trust me he is toast this upcoming election) we are getting back into Kyoto.

Basically, you should move to a country you have a chance of saving... heh

If not, just start praying that Kerry wins...

Re:That's it. Screw /.. I'm done.

[Bloodmoon1]

Actually, not a bad idea.

Re:That's it. Screw /.. I'm done.

[Anonymous Coward]

Now if only the dipshit mods would take 5 seconds to read the FAQ and figure out was Trolling is before they use that mod...

Imagine...

[Anonymous Coward]

Being raped with a banana.

I'd recommend picking your nose carefully.

In practice, they are exclusive...

[Anonymous Coward]

Notice the comment at one point in the interview that the middle class was only 15% of the population? How is this a communist state? Not only doesn't it meet the classic definition, but doesn't seem to meet any definition of communism I've ever heard. Sounds more like a falsely-democratic aristocracy to me. I don't mean to offend anyone in India, but how else do you describe a society where there are elections, but they don't mean much, as the very small percentage with the wealth are firmly in control?

picking nits...

[sbma44]

but the consuls were a relatively late development. It's an oversimplification, but it'd be more accurate to say that over time power flowed from the senate to the tribunes and finally to the consuls -- there was more back and forth than this, and a dizzying array of legislative bodies that I'm grouping into "the senate", but the consuls really only became the focus of power when they started declaring themselves dictator on a regular basis during the prosecution of massive foreign campaigns.

Also, the consular elections weren't broken down by caste. You're thinking of the tribunes when you refer to representatives of the plebeians. In fact plebeian consuls were expressly forbidden until 367 BC.

Re:Question still unanswered....

[ek-1000-ek]

Assuming this is a serious query: There is a nice hierarchy of 'divinity' in India/Hindus. First are millions of representations for aspects of nature (which people misleadingly refer to as gods). Like fire, wind, earth, directions, rains, stars, constellations, the point where earth's and moon's orbit intersect and so on. (Indra, Agni, etc) Then there are avatars. These are human forms of higher beings. Ruled by laws of human existence, these too are born and die like humans. (Krishna, Rama). Then there are the ones who manage this instance of creation. The one who created (Bhrama) one who maintains (Vishnu) and one who destroys (Shiva). Also at this level of conceptualization of divinity is Shakti (Goddess). At higher abstraction is Bhraman whose personification is called Prajapati. God as per English speakers. The pronoun used to refer to this is 'tat' (That). Unlike He or She as used commonly in other cultures/religions. That is also represented as the sound (Om). That is what created Bhrama, Vishnu and Shiva so they could create an instance of the creation we live in. That is everywhere and also inside every human. To realize and know That is what is referred to as Moksha and Nirvana and Mukti. As That is inside me, to know That is also called self-realization. And the point of concentration of That in our mind/brain. In fact it is supposed to be exactly behind the place where people put the red dot toward the center of brain. When hindus greet, they say Namaskar. They pay respect to That inside you. And that is why Hindu put a red dot at that location. To remind self and others, of That.

Dictatorial Republic

[Anonymous Coward]

There are plenty of these around. Ever been to singapore ?

Its Disneyland run by Nazis

Re:Question still unanswered....

[Anonymous Coward]

The humming sound is "Om" which created the world.

Swastik is symbol of all- round prosperity.
Please visit http://www.indianmirror.com/culture/cult.html for the indian cultural symbols. By no means it is exhaustive but explains the most common symbols.

Padasali

Re:Question still unanswered....

[Anonymous Coward]

There is whole line of art/belief based on geometric symbolism. There are often refered to as Yantra (which can translate into tweaks, machine, solution, method as per use). Swastika is one of the oldest and respected geometric form that represent good will and well being.

This one's pretty dumb...

[fm6]

...no American company and/or project leader that I have had contact with cares at all about internationalisation...

Jeez, who have you worked for, Ross Perot? Every single high-tech company I've worked for in the last 7 years (and I've worked at some of the big names) makes a big issue of Internationalization. We're talking billions of customers here, and belive it or not, a lot of them don't speak English.

Rising housing costs Re:Here's the culprit

[Anonymous Coward]

Rising housing costs are real culprit behind the rising cost of living.

And the rising cost of living is also helping to price american workers out of jobs.

Some restrictions on real estate speculation should be enacted to reduce the spiraling real estate market.

Even if average wages for the middle class rise, housing prices will catch up so that the average joe will still be an indentured servant who will have to work incessantly to pay off a 30 year mortgage or large rent amount.

Speculating on real estate is a zero sum game, and produces very little "value-add" for what the speculator gains from driving the price up of real estate. The profits are directly paid by the person buying a home for their sole residence.

India is bankrolling the US economy

[Sayan]

Last time I checked India's foreign exchange reserves was well over $100 billion. Now most of that money is not in real hard cash but kept in US govt. securities which pay a 1% interest rate.
The interesting point is that it means India is providing US with really cheap credit to prop the US budget deficit.
Now just add to this the similar cases of China, South Korea and other developing countries with large foreign exchnage reserves.