Slashdot Mirror
Changing Jobs for Job Satisfaction?
I-love-my-work, who is considering rejoining the IT world after a stint in business, asks: "A molecular biologist with a PhD at University of
Birmingham, in the UK, quits his lab position to become a plumber, since a plumber apparently earns twice what he currently makes (~US$42K).
How many of you would change careers if given a chance? What factors would influence the decision (money, hours, upper management, a chance to enjoy more of your life)?" What factors would make you seriously consider leaving your current career for another?
Paid? I'm supposed to get Paid?!
Duuuude....
I have considered this time and time again but the only thing keeping me from changing out of IT to something more gratifying is money.
i am we todd did... i am sofa king we todd did
And believe you me, Steve Jobs was PISSED. When he finally got out of the closet where I was keeping him, he killed the cloned Steve Jobs I made, and fired me.
....and you'll never have to work a day in your life :-)
It's not always practical to change jobs for job satisfaction alone. Very few people actually like their job. I personally prefer to sit on my arse all day, doing nothing. But, that isn't practical either.
I hated being a lawyer (insert joke here) and went into IT. Making pretty good money and wouldn't go back to law for triple the money. LouSir
...is my reason for looking into gravedigging. Seriously.
Slashdot is proof that Sturgeon's Law applies to mankind.
What would you do if you had a million dollars?
Besides 2 chicks at the same time?
Well yeah
I'd do absolutly nothing...
=)
I work in the software industry, and the recent death of a co-worker has me thinking about what I do with my time. Could I support my family with an at-home job? Could I work somewhere that lets me spend more time with my kids?
Sure, I make pretty good scratch, but what fun is the money if you never get a chance to spend it?
These questions and more are definately floating around our office.
It is simple really, it is a pay me world and I want to get paid. I think I'll be happy doing whatever so long as it pays well and I can live comfortably. Of course the hour worked is also a quality look for in a job. I don't exactly want to spend my weekends working.
-----
One is born into aristocracy, but mediocrity can only be achieved through hard work.
If I ever get an offer for the position of "Beatle", I'm outta here.
That's "Mr. Soulless Automaton" to you, Bub.
All day long, every day, I find bugs in software and kill those bugs.
I just found out that I would make more money if I spend all day long, every day, finding bugs under furniture and kill those bugs.
- For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat
...lets you change jobs without changing careers. You do become the final level of responsibility and you have to do some bookkeeping and bill collecting, but you have complete control of your work environment and hours. When you work long and hard, you directly benefit. With proper planning you can take large blocks of time off for whatever.
I spent 5 years getting a BC in CS to do a job that a flea-infested, poo-flinging resus monkey could do in its sleep. And I've been doing the same thing for 18 months this week. Quite frankly I'm ready to start considering a change, since I pretty much have a snowball's chance in hell of finding something else in the IT field. I've already informed some of my superiors that if they don't place me in something that more effectively uses my abilities, I'm probably leaving. They've been dangling a carrot in front of me for months about an actual programming position...yeah right.
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to Sparkle Motion.
The one major thing that I HATE about my job is dealing with all of the BS policies made by my company for the sole purpose of screwing our customers over.
Listen to my experimental-industrial-techno!
a millionaire
Gigolo
linus torvalds
Cowboy Neal
Phil from Heck
but truly, finding something I enjoy doing, and pays my bills, I have.. My wife doesn't think I make enough, but whose wife does? I've had my job since 1990, I hit the ceiling at that location 3 years ago.. I can't imagine leaving unless it's to call in 'rich lottery winner'
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
To go from an air conditioned lab to unclogging shitters is not my idea of job satisfaction.
I'm thinking of moving out of the IT industry...
What I'm looking for:
Reasonable job satisfaction- No more adjusting the settings on something that's going to get screwed up constantly or need non-stop maintenance. Something physical. And preferably something that people don't consider vital to their life. I can't even guess how many day-traders have threatened to hold me responsible for their ISP being down...
Human interaction-And by human, I don't mean people that can't use their computers.
Being in a job where the only people you see for months on end are 7 other guys kind of gets old. Especially if you don't get out a lot.
Money will/would be nice, but my expenses are low, so I'm fortunate that it won't be a primary concern.
I had a sucky sig.
I was a highly-paid dot-com bubble programmer, and then I was asked to become a vacationer overnight.
Seriously though, it was a very pleasant experience : 2 years of absolute slacking, doing only what I wanted on the money I had made during the bubble, recovering from 5 years of uninterrupted software development death marches that had left me kind of sick, and reflecting on all the mistakes I will never make in the future, either as an employee or as an entrepreneur.
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
I'm a sysadmin w/ a degree in Molecular Biology. My job is mostly stress free, because I actually design/deploy/do it right the first time and have procedures in place to fix things that go wrong. However, if given a choice of having another job and not worrying about how much I make? I'd rather sit on my ass and play Evercrack all day with occasional breaks for food, showers, and sex. Hey, maybe I can be a game tester... If money mattered, I'd rather be a lawyer or a CFO. But then, I wouldn't have time to read /.
One professor of mathematics noticed that his kitchen sink at his home broke down. He called a plumber. The plumber came on the next day, sealed a few screws and everything was working as before. The professor was delighted. However, when the plumber gave him the bill a minute later, he was shocked. "This is one third of my monthly salary!" he yelled. Well, he paid and then the plumber said to him: "I understand your position as a professor. Why don't you come to our company and apply for a plumber position? You will earn three times as much as a professor. But remember, when you apply tell them that you completed only the seventh grade. They don't like educated people."
So it happened. The professor got a plumber job and his life significantly improved. He just had to seal a screw or two occasionally, and his salary went up significantly. One day, the board of the plumbing company decided that every plumber has to go to evening classes to complete the eighth grade. So, our professor had to go there too. It just happened that the first class was math. The evening teacher, to check student's knowledge, asked for a formula for the area of the circle. The person who was ask was the professor. He jumped to the board, and then he realized that he forgot the formula.
He started to reason it and soon filled the board with integrals, differentials and other advanced formulas to conclude the result that he had forgotten. As a result he got "negative pi times r squared." He didn't like the negative, so he started all over again. He got the negative sign again. No matter how many times he tried, he always got a negative. He was frustrated. He looked a bit scared at the class and saw all the plumbers whisper: "Switch the limits of the integral!!"
When men used to be men
"If you love what you do, you'll never have to work another day in your life."
THIS IS THE INTERNET. PLEASE PICK UP YOUR SERIOUS BUSINESS SUIT AT THE FRONT COUNTER.
I worked in IT for a good number of years, as everything from tech support to running a small computer shop. Eventually, I decided to try something else...I was getting sick of IT, sick of people. I went full tilt the other direction -- I became a trucker. The pay is the same or better (depending upon what I'm doing), and the satisfaction of getting things done, truly, is much better than the endless chain of people in tech support. Fixing pc's was never the same, nor was managing databases. I've also found that it's great seeing the country as a whole -- there's a lot of stuff out there you just don't get to enjoy when you're inside a building 8-12 hours a day.
I sing the doggie electric!
That some expensive shit. Plumbing isnt that hard to do aside from gas fittings. I've actually thought about doing it too since I know they get paid well. I just didn't know it was THAT much.
Althought I like where I am headed in my career, systems administrator, an alternate choice has always been Airline pilot. Too bad you start off making squat for pay and have to go through so much expensive flight school. :/
Mewyn Dy'ner
On some really bad days, I sometimes consider leaving the IT industry and becoming a botanist.
What's the worst that could happen? Your bulbs don't germinate on time? Maybe some of your plants get some bugs... It's not like 500 employees breathing down your neck because the server is down.
But I would really miss working with the people. Go figure. The source of most of my IT pain is really the only reason for working in the industry.
Don't forget that the grass is always greener.
So chemists want to be he-man plumbers, swinging a pick and gaining satisfaction from building something tangible? Plumbers wish they could sit on their asses out of the weather and keep their fingers soft and clean on a keyboard all day. Programmers wish they could be making explosions in a chemistry lab, wearing a cool white coat and getting all the chicks!!
My teacher at high school quit his job for the same reason.
....
:)
He was one of the best history teachers I've ever met, and he was also teaching physical education, and poetry (strange combination huhh? ).
So I saw this respected man WASHING the WINDOWS of that huge office building day after day just over the street from my apt.
back to topic: I quit my job for "more relaxed life" and also for more money
now I work at home and I wouldn't change it for the world's money or anything else
It's getting too stressful worrying about layoff-this, RSI-that. I work in an industry (3D animation) that in ten years will probably be smaller than it is now. When I change careers it will probably be because I'm too tired of being one of the rats clinging to Titanic's rigging. This used to be a job that I loved (and you're right, I never worked a day), but that has changed and it's a job now.
I'll switch careers when I find something that will make me as happy as doing 3d work did five years ago.
Getting paid 1/4 for job satisfaction? Nah..
<^>_<(ô ô)>_<^>
What factors would make you seriously consider leaving your current career for another?
If I didn't like it, of course.
Right now, I work for a private college in the IT department. It's pleasant work, for the most part. Taking a job like this definitely caps your potential income, but frankly, there's a lot more important factors than money.
If I'm spending a third of my weekday hours somewhere, or more, why the hell would I do it somewhere I hate? That's like just _asking_ to be miserable the rest of the time.
--saint
Right now I'm a programmer but I am also an avid scuba diver. I wish I had the courage to quit my job and open up a dive operation in Akumal or somewhere similar.
Do they have broadband in Akumal?
Lord, bless my users that they may stop being such fucking idiots!!
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Basically my job has become one of electronic paper pushing and I'm just not interested. I'll be leaving in June.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
I went from a career working in life sciences to programming because I was sick of science and lab work. Plus my new job paid twice what my old job did. Now I work as a bioinfromatics programmer. So, in the end, I have combined the two.
That doesn't involve me dealing with crippling arthritis/carpel tunnel in the coming years.
I love what I do with computers, but the amount of time it involves and the idea of not being able to play catch with my kids because my hands hurt too much has me wondering if I'll really do this for years and years.
Plumbing might not be such a bad idea.
-- taking over the world, we are.
It's /dev/random, not /dev/rand. But even this would fail it because /dev/rand continually requires input from the mouse and/or keyboard to produce new entropy data! YOU FUCKED IT HARD!
I changed out of IT after the crash in 2000. I started teaching college as a stopgap measure and found it immensely rewarding despite the drastic drop in pay. I got certified to teach math in Florida, and I'm now here looking to teach kids in the public school system. Job satisfaction was the only motivating factor.
"My ship came in, but was bombed by terrorists in port and sank." - Me
remember to go through the list
sit at home, hack perl code, and watch tv/listen to music. I work in my underwear most days...in fact I'm posting in my underwear. I have sex while i'm at work when my gf comes over. I can drink if i want, smoke whenever i want, get a tan on my deck since i have a laptop, whatever i want. sometimes i walk downtown and go to a coffee shop for a change of scenery.
:) what more can I ask for? maybe i could buy a house close to where i am now, which is 3 blocks from the beach.
plus i get paid well
perl -e '$_="\007/4`\cp%2,".chr(127);s/./"\"\\c$&\""/gees
I left my last job as the people I worked with didn't have a clue. Management was clueless, the technical people were clueless and there was zero communication. Some may say I should have stayed and tried to fix it but I say life is too short. Looked for another job - got a good one and I'm now working with some of the best people in the industry, getting paid more and learning loads.
----
And people wonder why more kids aren't going into the hard sciences? How about giving them some incentive after going to school for 4-9 years (in addition to high school)?
.8%, yet the average starting salary is 40k!
It's utterly ridiculous that someone goes through such rigorous schooling and yet makes so little. Talk about a broken market. Some sectors of Chemistry, for example, have an unemployment rate of
I quit my job programming - not in anticipation of getting fired or outsourced, but because I got tired of it. 7 years of being asked why our software couldn't make our clients a ham sandwich at the click of a button. Now I'm going to law school to eventually become a patent/i.p. lawyer. My first case when I graduate? How about a class action lawsuit asgainst SCO for violation ogf the GPL? Not neccesarily the best thing for the bank account in the short run, but the Amaerican Bar Association will never let lawyering get outsourced to India. And yeah, I know, everyone thinks lawyers suck. That always seems to change when a person gets their car rear-ended by an company driver though...
A molecular biologist with a PhD at University of Birmingham, in the UK, quits his lab position to become a plumber, since a plumber apparently earns twice what he currently makes (~US$42K).
Hopefully if you are in science, you are doing what you do for reasons other than financial gain. Ideally, one should be doing what they are doing in science to make a difference . Really, because there are a ton of things people can do that are much easier that writing papers, doing good science and applying for grants that make much more money than do your typical scientist. Take for instance the auto mechanic who works on my neighbors BMW. That dude (mechanic) clears six figures easy. Another set of examples: Before I went to graduate school, one of my jobs was a mechanic for old Ferrari's and Lamborghini's. That was not too bad in terms of income and certainly covered the cost of tuition. The carpenter we paid to make our couch makes some pretty good money. The dudes that replaced our sewer line and driveway cleaned up to the tune of $4000 or so. So, if you are just in it for the money, go get an MBA or a plumbing license or something.
Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
The way I feel about it is this: I can sit in a cubicle doing what is essentially rearranging random ones and zeros into non-random order to create something of value (although most of my time is actually spent doing documentation, reports, supervision, meetings etc).
OR I can take a bunch of raw pieces of wood and create something that is not only beautiful, but allows a musician to create even more beauty and music.
Which one sounds more satisfying to you?
The more I write code the more I want to build guitars for a living.
[BTW, I'd love to add a shameless plug for my website right about here but I'd probably just slashdot myself and end up taking my whole site down]
I'm guessing that most of the posters today won't be moaning about too much free time at their current jobs. *We're on Slashdot* Seriously though, I'd switch careers in a heartbeat for a highly paid, low accountability, telecommuting job. Is anyone hiring? :)
-
Tech News, Reviews and Tutorials
I decided to turn down a job with a sizable increase in salary. When i interview with the company I found that they were constantly putting out fires and not setting up there systems to avoid problems. I realized that my life would suck supporting their environment so I decided to not to go. I'm begining to realize that money with a lousy quality of life simply isn't worth it. I am now considering leaving my corporate job and starting my own company. Quality of life is where its at. Companies that understand that will benefit from it.
...I would change jobs.
I'm retired.
PhD in Astronomy, 1998. My thesis dragged out endlessly so that once I'd finished it, I couldn't stand the thought of doing the work to create some papers out of it. Also, I wanted to come back home (New Zealand) and astronomy jobs are hard to get here.
1998-2003: Commercial programmer. OK at first, but eventually I was just doing the same old stuff again and again. I was getting very bored and I think because of that, unproductive.
So now I'm an applied mathematician in bioinformatics (having studied no biology since early high school). I was earning 40% more at the previous job, but it is worth it to be doing something interesting again.
Money is nice (a friend once called it "the sincerest form of appreciation") but having new, challenging and interesting things to do is more important.
Quattuor res in hoc mundo sanctae sunt: libri, liberi, libertas et liberalitas.
if any of you have two(+) jobs in different fields, enjoying both.
I'd personally love some part-time horse-related job (farrier, trainer, stable manager), but without quitting IT.
45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
I find that a hostile work environment makes me want to move on. Especially if it is strict deadline driven business like litigation support.
You would think that highly educated lawyers would be better at time management.
eh, this sucks, I am going back to bed....
A junior technician (bachelor's degree) can make around $50K USD here in the US. A PhD can command more as a "mere lab tech." That's IF s/he wants to continue to do science. They can get jobs reasonably easily as *shudder!* consultants. In fact, I went to seminar on how to tweak your resume (a science PhD resume, anyway) to get a job in consulting.
I seriously doubt he'll be making over $100K USD after 5 years as a plumber. With his PhD he can, if he plays his cards right.
If given and chance and given the years it took me to become Professional accountant I would definitively change my carrier path.
Heck if someone paid me what I am making right now to go to school to requalify to say a doctor or engineer or whatever I would probably do it
Why ?
Scoze it is a challenge and I like challenges and learning about new "stuff"
I may change my career in the next 10 years. It is always a consideration
Well keep posting to slashdot and you too my friend will get your chance to moderate.
what?
I've worked successfully as a developer in one form or another for the last ten years, but I'd definitely consider a switch to a new field where the skillset doesn't change as often.
The challenge is that you get a job working for a company that uses technology A. But technology A inevitable falls out of favor over time. Large companies are often so invested in A, though, that they don't change to new technology B very quickly. It's easy to end up in a situation where your skill set is no longer as marketable, unless you spend nights and weekends learning technology B on your own. But even then, you only have "hobby" experience and not professional experience...
Ahh, heck with it. I'm just gonna go sell shoes.
"It's so beautiful, I feel so ... I feel my juices are just you know ... it makes me so ... I want to write, I want to paint, I want to sculpt something massive. I've got a creative urge. I wonder if there's a men's room around here."
I'd give up my day job in a heartbeat if there was any money in the massive sculpture market.
There are 01 types of people in this world. Those that understand binary, and me.
It's not that I don't like software or don't like building things, but the real world of software engineering lacks the creativity and creationism I got into the field for in the first place. I do what my boss tells me to do. I follow a schedule. I spend the whole day gazing out my window, wishing I could spend the daylight hours outdoors. I feel like a factory worker.
:wq
Here.
That instead of educating young minds and advancing scientific knowledge, he has chosen to wade through pipes filled with poo and who-know-what-else.
I suppose this wouldn't happen if we paid our educators more. I moved from Biochemistry to IT because I despised writing grant proposals.
I don't blame the man. It seems like the system is a bit wonky if plumbers make more than a professor at a uni.
echo
I am getting out of IT. I am planning on running a bicycle store. Mountain bikes, BMX, something for the road weanies. This high flying job is not going to last forever. My toyota is paid for and I live in a 1bed condo that I also own. I am investing in properties, 2 so far, one more this spring, and am in my last class for my B.S. in Business. "Fables and Folktales", the things you do to graduate :) Goes well the engineering AA. Next up MBA, a few more investments and....see ya...
Why be Dilbert when you can be the pointy haired boss?
JON
Oh yeah, my H1B expires June 1, 2007. If Bush buys the white house again, I'll leave earlier.
by Steve Levine
Enough said.. read it yourself..
This article is a little scattered. One person is quitting his job as a *molecular biologist with a Ph.D." to work as a plumber, while another person is switching to training greyhounds and yet another is just moving to Canada. The reasons for all of these changes may be way unrelated to each other.
...
But so what? Just because you *can* do something doesn't mean that you should. I've made in excess of $100,000/year as a software consultant for four years. Now I'm finishing my English degree and studying poetry. People do this sort of thing all the time and it usually comes when they're a little older and have a better idea of what matters to them in life and what gives them the energy to get up in the morning and face the day. The molecular biologist has some big bills, perhaps. Or maybe he's just a smart guy that put in a ton of work -- Ph.D.'s, after all, aren't earned in a few weekends of spare time study, at least not from a reputable school -- and then found that the reality of research is different from the intellectual stimulation of textbooks.
Do I like software? Yes, I do. I compete on TopCoder, read books about functional programming, and throw mud at SCO. But writing and literature is, simply speaking, closer to my heart. For another person it's training an ancient breed of dogs. And for yet another person it's going to Canada to commune with, well, Canadians I guess.
The fact is that, given basic education, intelligence and wherewithal, we live in a world where you don't *have* to settle for doin' what yer daddy done, or towing the line, or staying "safe" if you don't want to.
This molecular plumber guy is just searching for a reward, I guess. After a few years of the realities of a plumber, it's possible yet he may look fondly back at his days as a molecular biologist
Chr0m0Dr0m!C
I'm currently a third year computer science major. I want to drop out, move to Europe and start building my career in food and the culinary arts. My parents would wring my neck if they knew what I really wanted to do, because I'm Indian (if you've ever seen "American Chai" you know what I'm talking about).
:(
Any ideas?
I would have respect for PhD's if the system didn't depend so much on slave wage conditions for those who do the bulk of the experiments and labwork. The promise of an academic career and the light at the end of the tunnel is that you get your own slave wage earners to do your bidding when you get your own grant. It's kind of sick when you stop and think about how the academic system works.
These days, it seems, the brightest and more self-motivated people have gone on to run their own companies. All too often, success in academia is determined by a silly puerile contest of wills. It isn't that there aren't really bright well-motivated academic researchers, but these are rare in comparison to the politically-minded opportunists who found that obtaining grants was an easier way to slide through life than the application of their skillset in open market competition. Well, that's my two cents. I don't know the individual situation of the mobio-researcher-turned-plumber in the U.K. but surely the direct and honest activity of fixing sinks, faucets and installing pipework for people at large beats brutal grant-money competition and having to cowtow to the same academic snobs for years on end. In one case, at the end of the day, you have actually accomplished something.
http://tinyurl.com/4ny52
First off a plumber makes more than someone with a phd?
Anyway, something similar to this happened to me, minus the 42k and phd. I recently swapped careers after over 8 years as an automotive tech. I decided I was tired of going home greasy, busting my knuckles, and working out in the cold. Now I'm in school part time, and working with the same company only in the IT department. The dirtiest I get at work now is from a rabid dust bunny inside of a case or two. Needless to say I am happy of the change. Once school is completed I'll make at least twice what I did working on cars. I would have been reluctant to change had I not been able to stay with the same company. I know of many people who have their degrees in Computer Science, and cannot get a job either from the market bieng saturated or a lack of hands on experience. I am lucky enough to have the best of both worlds, job security, working at my degree, and getting hands on experience.
As for the plumber with a phd, my father always said "It doesn't matter if you make minimum wage washing dishes, as long as your happy with what you do."
I am Bennett Haselton! I am Bennett Haselton!
He has since come back to working in the business world, which is why he now works for my company. Why? Well, he discovered that as an "odd job" laborer:
You have to work HARD.
You make no money.
You have no benefits.
You still have to deal with pompous, overbearing individuals who think they know, when in fact, they do not.
You do not get vacations.
Now given, YMMV, but I have found that the key to job happiness is having a good balance of expectations versus fulfillment. 3 years ago, when my expecations of employment were "I want a pool table, I want to go drinking every night with my coworkers, I want to work 80-hour weeks and be an IPO millionaire," I would have been miserable at my current job. The place is kinda corporate, after all. We have cubes, and use buzzwords, and there are "are you giving good customer service?" banners hanging up.
But now, what I want in a job includes things like vacation time, a chance to play with some fun technologies, good money, and a job that I can come in, do, and get outta here as quickly as possible. So now my job is a lot more fulfilling, partially because I found a different job, and partially because I modified my expectations.
If you are really miserable at your job, by all means, go elsewhere. I certainly did. But be prepared to take a good look at yourself and consider that part of the problem may lie with you.
--- Where's my car, and why are these grass stains on my pants?
money, hours, upper management, a chance to enjoy more of your life
It's going to be repeated ad nauseum but you have to do something that you like. If you think of your job as just a 'job', the chances are you are not going to like it for a long time. If you think of what you are doing as a 'career', that is more of a long term relationship.
IMHO, everything else is secondary. Of course there are going to be myriad factors in choosing one over other apart from the likeness part. You've got to get food on the table, you've got to support them wife and kids, you've got to pay them bills. But if you are planning on switching, I would say it again. Get something that you like. Don't just leave what you are doing and jump onto something else. Maybe start doing something related to what you want to move into and get a real taste of what it is to be doing that.
Free XBox, PS2
I worked in games for a few years but I just got sick of the long hours. There's this insincerity in software employment practices that really bugs me. You sign a contract that says you'll work forty hours a week and then they expect you to work fifty. Come crunch time it's up to sixty or seventy and I don't have any time left for myself. Add in that I don't enjoy the work very much (it's just not like the good old days of programming text-mode games in high school), and it became a pretty clear choice for me. I left the software industry to do animation. Now I'm in grad school going into debt so I can do something that I enjoy more. Of course, the problem is that in animation the hours are just as bad... :/
-David
thanks for handling that for me. i really hate it when people fuck up the details of a joke.
I've sold my small consulting company and took a year off to be with family, friends and to recharge the creative batteries that have been long negected.
I'm already running low on funds and I'm trying to find a job where I can be happy and useful without having to be on call 24/7 and running around putting out fires. But my decision was worth it.
If you're in IT, now is the time to move back to Mom's house for a while to re-think your situation, go back to college, get a better/other degree and get laid more often!
Catch up on all those comic books! 'Nuff said!
Most of my life I've gotten the advice to figure out what you love and find some fool to pay you for doing it. Now I'm not so sure. Go find a secure profession that will pay you well enough to live your life (hint: a life isn't what you do at work). Make sure there are enough opportunities that you can switch employers whenever you get sick of one. Then go do what you love. You're selling some of your life to your employer to finance the rest of your life.
Your kidding right? I watched two plumbers on two different occasions working on the septic tank at my house splash shit in thier mouths while breaking open the old pvc pipe to clear it out. I tried to act like I didn't notice while they were madly spitting and cursing. When I paid the bill it made me feel a little better about the high price paid to plumbers. I don't think you want to trade in your IT job for a plumbers, unless of course you have a poop fetish. In that case the job satisfaction will be tremedous.
This post is a bit insensitive mod down
I'd move back to Wisconsin, settle in Milwaukee where a lot of my friends ended up and open a nice Irish Pub.
It'd have a big wood bar with brass fixtures, comfortable booths with high backs, and outdoor seating for the summers. You'd be able to order quality food ranging from pastrami sandwitches to raw oysters to hot wings, and each week I'd have a special featuring food you don't see much in Wisconsin. There'd be a few big TVs to watch the Packers games during the season. And on Fridays, we'd have live jazz.
(sighs) Well, I can retire with a full pension when I'm 50 in 2027. Maybe then. Until then, it's driving a computer for me.
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
Is from "computer programmer" to bitch.
Does that count?
Having worked in 5 large corporate firms in the last 11 years (IBM were only the second worst) I can say I've finally had enough. Only one of those 5 had reasonably competent middle management, most of management were far more interested in producing powerpoint presentations to justify their positions, which at best were meaningless, at worst produced morale killing objectives.
The money is not worth the price you have to pay for spending 8 to 10 hours a day in a soul destroying environment.
I'm currently in the process of creating my own company. Working for myself may be risky, the pay may be less, but at least I won't have to put up with middle management!
Enjoying your work is the most important thing, if you get paid well that's a bonus, but a distinct second.
I'm definitely considering a move out of the IT industry. While I am extremely thankful I have been blessed with great business in the last few years, job satisfaction is at an all time low.
Frankly, I've come to realize that I work for the machine! I find them a nice 42U space for them to habitate in, give them power, air conditioning, a line out to talk with their friends. I then go on to teach them how to talk with other folks in interesting ways, so that they can stand on their own and make some money!!
It'd be nice to do something good for the planet. I'm returning back to the ideals of my youth - I want to help the planet, and not just one server at a time. Another monkey could do my work (maybe not quite as well, but it'd get done), I should be out helping people. Even if I climb the fabled ladders or just retire a rich consultant - would I really want to look back on my life in 40-50 years and say "Welp, I built some damn fine servers in my day, yessir."? No sir. What would really turn my crank? That's the one that's tough to figure out. Who else wants to save the planet?
IT(ers) with CrackerJack(c) degrees in MIS and CIS making 70K-80K per year. Ohhh.... I forgot, that was a couple of years ago, when numbers didn't really mean anything, and knowledge meant even less.
But the fact is, if you are in education you are not in it for the money, but if you want more money you have to consult.
Plumbing!!! that is nothing... I actually moonshined for a friend as a general contractor on two different occasions while working full time in the university. Nothing beats the look on an inspector's face when you actually understand and not just follow the building codes.
~m
"Yes, I have a Disaster Recovery Plan. It's called my Resume"
I had a job as senior project manager, my skills "helped" me to get into the business area as well as the technical, so at the end of the day I was doing the jobs of a sales engineer, manager of the IT crew and project manager. That was ok until my boss started to push to improve my sales!!!! c'mon...
Anyway... he went to southamerica to close a few deals and I was running the business here. We were about 10 people. The problem was when he starting to call the customers to force payments (they were late) and ruined all the negotiations I did. Projects started to collapse and 3 of the best employees left. I tried to, but my hands were tied with the responsibiliti. Finally the stress led me to the hospital and when the company refused to pay the bill and the extra expenses I decided to quit. Money was good, but considering the chores I was doing, I deserved the money of 3 or 4 management positions.
You and your health is the most important, also take time to live your life, don't live for work. Become necessary to your company, but don't solve others work. If you feel abused, talk, if nobody listens, then it's time to give the fsk salutation to your boss. Chances are they won't support you in easy times, lesser are while you're in troubles.
My 2cents.
Boy, I'm glad none of you guys are the ones that advocate free (as in beer) software. Just makes sense, if some plumbers started working for free, plumbing would be a bad business fast. Salaries for the ones asking to be paid wouldnt go up, thats for sure. Why open source software exists
I'm currently looking to change jobs for the satisfaction of actually making more then I spend every month! Yes, as a consultant, I've taken a 33% pay cut... but my expenses have continued to climb.
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
I came this close -->-- in getting my teaching cert and become a school teacher. Luckily I got to support all the computers in my grad school and I kinda liked that more then teaching. The Chairman of the department was disapointed that I didn't want to go into teaching but he wanted to know if I wanted to stay on and get another MS so I can take care of the department's computers again. After slaving away in grad school for a mere 8k/year, I felt like laughing in his face. As for now, I would gladly switch to a new career if it would pay 30k+ more then I'm earning now.
I read most of the posts here and to summarize, we geeks are fed up to the top of our heads with the current state of affairs. Namely, corporations that don't give a damn about us. Unfortunately, most of us are indentured servants to our corporate masters at this time.
On the bright side, when the job market comes back these same corporate masters are going to wonder what hit them. Widespread walkouts, or extortion (large retention bonuses, immediate promotions/raises). If the idiot CxO's don't get a clue now, they are going to watch their companies implode as the brain drain hits them.
These sentiments mirror those of my colleagues. Our company had better get a clue too, or it won't be pretty.
I grew up with electronics as a hobby.
I turned it into a career.
Despite being spectacularly good at it and well paid by an employer who worships the ground upon which I walk, I hate my life, my skin is an unhealthy shade of neutral (fluorescent lights, don't ya know), I get depressed all the time and my brain shuts down when I get home, so my time away from work is just a hazy blankness full of desperation and shame.
It's too late for me, but you young 'uns can learn from the horror of mine existence.
RUN! Run from the tech industry before it's too late! Escape! Run! It's "managed" by evil people in ugly ties and gestapo-like haircuts! No matter how much you succeed, they will nitpick and criticize! Nothing is ever good enough! Run! And do not look back lest ye turn into a pillar of silica gel!
--- Ban humanity.
I just quit a 9-year job last month because I was supposed to stop doing what I love most (programming) and start doing something I don't really want to do (write lots of documentation and specs and send those to India).
My new job pays a little less, so I'm doing a couple of freelance jobs on the side (my so-called "spare time"), but it's worth it. Peace of mind is very valuable. Also, the stress was starting to get the best of me and was affecting my marriage, so it was for the best. Now I'm coding again, designing and writing class libraries for other programmers to use (in the same office).
Go hug some trees.
I'd probably go back to my other love in life, racing. I'd go for CASCAR (being Canadian and all), no holds barred. However, given the fact I'm engaged and just bought a new car... I'd need a substantial amount of cash (at LEAST what I make now) in order to make the jump. On second thought... NAH. Wouldn't do it. I love being "the man"!
One of the 187.
the sibling to this post's parent (which would be this post's uncle or aunt) already answered the "outsourcing" question. :)
"I'm just here to regulate funkiness."
My SW/FW interaction quality assurance job is currently funding my education to fully get the hell out of the computers field and go into Environmental/Occupational Safety and Health. It's basically so I don't have to yell and scream in my cube, "This is total bullshit." on a semi-frequent basis. Also, now I am a safety nazi, which can be fun. It is all boiling down to job satisfaction. People ask me, "you are leaving tech industry?" in a disbelieving tone. Amused, I respond, "You must be new here." - Brian
Yeah, very offtopic and can't bring profit
...I've been in IT for about 7 years now, I make a comfortable salary, but honestly...as time goes on I find it less and less spiritually fulfilling (not to mention I don't see 'much' chance to make a great deal more money, but thats secondary to the fulfillment aspect of it all).. Many mornings I've woken up and wondered what it would be like to work with my hands building things in contracting..remodeling homes and renovating properties. Every day it seems more and more appealing as opposed to my monkey-in-a-box existence I have now.
I understand, from reading the article that this guy's gripe is due in great part to the fact that he can't get funding for what he wants to research (The UK's higher education system is fucked in alot of ways), but many of the people that I know working in offices and staring at that same ceiling as me in the morning wondering 'what if', have that same syndrome I see so many college grads and beyond. That nagging feeling that sitting still for 4 years (and beyond) in school didn't seem like that much of a good use of their time.. That no matter how many letters they put on their resume, they're still pretty much fucked because they couldn't quite get to that inner circle of good old boys (and girls). And on the other side is that fear of not having that safe office job. "Yeah I could be a plumber..and you know what? I'd probably enjoy the shit out of it but how would I survive until I had a good group of clients to throw me work?".. They've been so programmed that you must go to school, intern, write all the right letters and do all the right things and only THEN will you be respected... Anything less than that is beneath you because we were all supposed to be rockstars (rolling eyes).. Meanwhile, that kid you made fun of as 'prolitariate' because he decided to become an electrician, and now is one in the shop, just built a 100K extension onto his house at half normal cost because he knew how to do so much of it himself..
Not all of us were meant to work in an office and do pencil pushing work. Many of those people who weren't meant to went to college anyways and sure enough now they're wondering what the fuck the point of waking up tomorrow is... I know that point doesn't directly relate to the article, but it seems to me that THAT is why so many of us are discontent (aside from the idiocy that is management nowadays)..
Greatness is slowly dying at the hands of the takers, don't become one of them..
I've recently taken up a second career in the hopes of having more time to myself, making my own schedule and making lots more money. I got my real estate license! Now I'm working for a broker part time while I sys admin full time. It's great when you sell a house (and it doesn't require much more than a few hours work) and bring home a commission check that's twice your monthy salary!
Construction types who are considered to be "skilled" (I only put that in quotes because the definition of skilled is...see below) get paid a lot of cash, something on the order of $30-50/hour or more, depending on the job and their "skill" level. The ones I can think of are electricians and plumbers to whom this applies, and I'm talking about the US here (I have no idea what goes on in UK). My dollar figures are dated as well, this is what they were making a decade ago when I used to work in construction.
The "skilled" comment is based on the fact that these people need to actually get certifications from what is essentially a union in order to practice their trade. They move up through ranks like journeyman and such, which they can use in their marketing to get jobs and demand their fees. I think they also have to be licensed in the state, and plumbing and electrical installations need to be inspected by a plumber and electrician in addition to the general inspection all projects get. They can charge a premium for all this.
You should also pardon the pun in the parent's comment "expensive shit." You certainly wind up playing in a lot of shit, but you can charge good money for that if that's something you want to do. Gastroenterologists also enjoy that same benefit...
I have done just this and I can tell you its great. I was a fairly highly paid (70 pa) solutions architect but received no job satisfaction from what I did.
As of a few weeks ago I am now the proud owner of my own bar. There is loads of social interaction and its all good honest work.
Talking to many people thinking of changing careers it seems most coders want to do something in the physical world. In as much that you can physically see your end result after a days work....I made n widgets, fixed x pipes, pulled y pints.
I would say that try to take a part time job with one of these places first. I went to my local bar, explained what I wanted to do and asked to work a few shifts unpaid. Dont get me wrong, its not easy and the work is very different, but as it stands at the moment my job satisfaction and whole outlok on life is infinatley better.
I used to work for a Managed Security Provider, and hated the corporate bullshit, the lying, the incompetence. So I quit and got a job as a Caretaker on the Appalachian Trail for a summer. Very rewarding experience, I met people from all over, had some quality down time, and saw some amazing things.
You only live once, and the Big Day is coming. Enjoy your life.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
I'm completing a master's degree in adolescent education, and within a few months I'll be able to secure a position in a NYC public school. Will it bother me that my base pay will be all of 38k during my first year? No, it won't: I love teaching.
Ask yourself, does the following definition apply to you (courtesy of UrbanDictionary.com):
Job: Means by which at least 30% of your life is stolen from you to enrich the owners of a company making useless shit that some other poor idiot in a job will buy.
(Oh, and try to outsource my job to India. Go head, I dare you.)
An effective signature identifies a particular user amongst a base of thousands.
...after totally losing it with my last so-called university job, I figured that research was a dish best served without direct monetary flavour. The alternative is to 'research' as you are paid to research, which in the computer-science field is of course merely another way of becoming an underpaid code monkey for the greater glory of a usually-very-stupid boss... so now I'm taking the PhD on my own terms until I persuade somebody into funding it for what it is, no strings attached, and getting money as a freelance translator (certification pending).
I think, if you're ideologically handicapped (eg, you have the irrational and idealistic belief that science involves facts) then the best type of science is at least initially that which you aren't paid for. The alternative is either to be very lucky, get a great boss or go blindly through your life ignoring the fact that you don't believe in your own papers, and eventually receive a PhD that might just as well be printed on toilet paper for all you'll care...
I've been doing IT (sysadmin) for ten years now on only a high school degree and a lot of experience. Unfortunately, the company I had been working for closed its doors last year, and I haven't been able to find an IT job since. I worked at a retail place for a bit, but that didn't go over too well.
So now I'm going to college to persue my original dream - physics.
"What would you do if you had a million dollars?"
I'd sit around reading Slashdot all day. HEY! Look at me Ma, I'm a millionaire already!
I used to love science. I would read articles, study the techniques and figure out how to do experiments on my own. I once cloned a gene using jello, gummi worms, a rubbermaid box, some wire,some twine, a tylenol bottle,a pinch of lye, and a lantern battery.
Obviously science and biochemistry was something I would do as a hobby . . . out of school now, and having been working for 6 years in the field. . . there is no desire left to do science in the kitchen, it just feels like work without the pay.
Even at work it feels like work more than a hobby with pay.
--Tsiangkun
"The Plumbing Business Is Not As Glamorous As The Porn Industry Depicts"
I speak for myself of course.
I would feel such a looser, If I'm 60 and I'm
still asked to dump the stack of a stupid
function searching for memory leaks.
Looking at requirements for the latest network
protocol.
Programming look sophisticated from outside but
once inside is pretty idiotic (usually creating
bugs more complex than the problems
they are out there to solve).
I went to see Mel Brooks "The Producers" and when
Mathew Broderick was singing the song about being
unhappy as an accountant just looking at numbers
and punching a keyboard a tear rolled down my
cheek.
"I want to be a Producer!"
- these are not the droids you are looking for -
I must post as an AC here, as you shall soon see..
.
I was making some nice cash in the software industry not too long ago (mid-2002) when my recently-acquired employer decided to shutter its local lab. I was on my arse for eight months, looking for anything that would allow me use my M.S. in computer science. (I should also mention that a lot of the local s/w development was in telecom. NOT a good time to be on the dole.)
During that time, I had a chance to evaluate what I really wanted to do with my career.
When I was a wee lad with only an undergraduate degree, and busily starving to death for those extra two letters, I realized that I did NOT want to be in software development at age 50. (This was over 10 years ago.. 'twas a much more innocent time.) The recession-before-last was in full swing, and plenty of middle-aged engineers were out of work -- very expendable resources to be sure.
Well, now I'm on the wrong side of 35, and after over a decade in industry, and a near-brush with a return to grad school, I noticed that I participated in quite a few death marches, failed efforts, and other examples of bad (or no) leadership. (To be fair, I've had great managers as well. Did I mention that I posted as an AC?) I realized that the only thing I was missing to be a project manager or leader was credibility -- be it a certification, promotion, experience, what have you. And oh yeah, soft skills would be nice.
So I followed the footsteps of some close friends, and enrolled in an MBA program. Today, I don't want to be a software developer (unemployed or otherwise) when I'm 40.
Now, I work for an outsourcing firm as the local developer/proj. manager. (If you object, remember that it pays the big bills, so kindly STFU, 'kay?)
I guess you could say I'm a very well-paid grad student right now..
NOT to belittle LEO's, but I've heard that some departments won't hire people whom they feel are too intelligent. They are afraid they will get bored too easily.
There was a case where a guy scored extremely high on one of those little tests, and was therefore not hired. Of course, once his lawyer was done, he probably didn't need to....
I had a sucky sig.
You can't outsource a plumber.
Yet.
septic tank... Erma Bombak (sp?)
I've got a bachelor's degree in Computer Science, and I enjoy the work, when it exists. However, work for Linux/Unix developers w/ a mix of low-level (kernel & device drivers) and higher-level (task automation and web) experience seems to be very thin on the ground.
One of my other interests is biochemistry, but I'd have to go back to school for my Masters/Ph.D. That requires money and relocating (I'm currently sitting around in Wichita, KS). I've got nothing against relocating, but that requires either money or a job on the other end (see above).
During the last years people went to universities like crazy... Yeah, everyone wanted to be "important" ("uh... WHO would want to be a plumber?") and make good money. Too bad that _everyone_ did that.
But such "low" jobs are necessary, and people must be paid accordingly (no more "sub-job" talk) and such professionals deserve respect aswell (no, plumber/anything is not a retarded).
If everyone turn into rocket scientists... Well, the World would no longer function.
1.) Job predictability/stability
2.) Pay
3.) Time investment required to keep #1 & #2
1.) I need to have control over my job as much as possible. Some jobs, such as numerous public sector jobs, depend on many factors in which you performance is rarely one of them. Spectacular performers should get more pay or bonuses, this is not a new idea.
2.) How much pay do I get? Can I maintain or improve my lifestyle and give a good environment to my family and children?
3.) How many hours do I need to pull in a week to get the pay I need? This is not so much a bare minimum, but a realistic number. Some people are willing to work 70hrs/wk in order to double their pay, some are not.
Yes, I'm a Computer Scientist, do you want fries with that?
Show me on the doll where his noodly appendage touched you.
*ducks flying sharp objects* About 6 months ago I lost my job. In the year I was with that company I went from enjoying IT work and the Internet to slowly getting more and more burnt out over it. Now within two weeks of losing that job I already had another job in the same field, but it is a whole new ball game. It is run so much better, I am learning a lot, and doing things I never would have had the chance with the other ISP (yes both are Internet providers, I'm a glutton for punishment what can I say). So basically from my point-of-view at least it isn't what you are doing, but where you are doing it. If you don't like your job, quit, find a new job. There are jobs out there.
If you really want a job don't send e-mail resumes or call on the phone, go to the offices where you want to work, not from those that are trying to find someone. If you can get in before they post an ad or have sufficient experience or a good resume you can get a job even if they aren't actively hiring. And don't settle for what you think you can do. Shoot high, the worst someone could say is no. It's not hard finding a job if you just know how to do it. *ducks flying blunt objects*
----------------
Shooting is not too good for my enemies.
When I was in grade 4th I wanted to get into a computer related carreer, that was 14 years ago, now I think that there migth be two other things I could be, an astronaut, or an Formula 1 pilot. Some of my friends from College (different majors) have got pretty good jobs, as for paid, I can't complain about mine, I get enough for my needs (single) and I get to save some, plus I'm already planning on a masters, But I would not even think on moving to a job that for example, demands me to wear a suit everyday. I just like if I get a job where I can use my abilities, feel confortable, and if possible, get well paid. I might move from my job to a personal office sometime... but not at the moment
"Sarcasm detector? Now that's a useful invention."
Mod down this rant if you want, but it is an objective opinion of the consensus of this thread.
Everyone here talks about how they can't leave IT, and "boo-hoo" that this corporation that cares little for you offshores your job.
The PhD in question realized that plumbing pays more (and to reply to another thread, a plumber can make much more than 100k USD if they want to).
Personally, I hate my IT job. I do network administration for a logistics company. We also have a help desk (which for some strange reason is my boss) and three programmers who program in something easier than VB (magic software out of israel if you are interested...shudder).
I loathe my IT job, loathe the fact that nobody understand what I do, loathe the fact that I am forgotten about, loathe the fact that I put in 80 hour weeks and get chastised for the raise I threaten to quit over if I didn't get it. I am going to quit. As someone else stated, money is the best form of flattery. Who will pay me better than me? Nobody. So I am starting my own buisness.
Yes it is a horrible plan (ebay selling combined with windshield repair) but I do have aspiritions (would like to start developing games for cell phones and pdas)
So I am leaving my position in about 3 months to start it. Will I make as much? No. I only make 40k now, but with benefits that is probably nearer to 50k a year ( no bonus, no matching 401k ). Do I have to potential to make more? Hell yes I do. I am greatly suprized that people haven't taken the ititiative to start up there own niche based software companies. I am about to, and plan on hiring part time java programmers from wherever they pop up, as so long as they can do the work.
Not everyone has the prudence to start there own buisness, not everyone can code 4000 (good) lines in a week, not everyone can program a pix without looking at it.
If you love coding, but hate your job, find a niche that nobody else has filled. Write damn good software, and actively work on getting it marketed to the people who will use it. Maybe a niche to you is an answering machine for your linux box that emails you the ogg version of the message. Maybe it is a good time management system. Or software for logistics, or dental offices, or time management. Is each one of these things something that will make you a millionare? Of course not. If you change certain aspects of it, and spin the marketing a certain way, and sell it correctly, you could easily be sucessful enough and make enough bread for your family.
I still come back here even though 95% of the posters on slashdot haven't a clue, and usually don't mod up the intellegent posts because they don't agree with them.
Blah Blah Blah.
"Oh, you hate your job?! There's a support group for that. It's called everyone,
they meet at the bar."
-- Drew Carry, the Drew Carry Show.
"Oh, you hate your job? There's a support group for that, it's called everyone, they meet at the bar."
I love engineering but began to hate the way it is done in the companies I have worked for and with seeming particular Cambridge attitudes how it is difficult to get anyone to listen if you're in a room with people all with Phd or 1st from Cambridge. Then when you are right again you just think what is the point, if they listened they could have avoided this, etc...
I also have a problem in that I won't kiss butt nor wear a tie. Two other factors that are a major hinderance.
The problem with picking something like law is it takes years to train and you start on the low end of the cash again. So I'd advise, do something that pays the bills but doesn't wear you out and you can get into rapidly (bus drivers wanted around York!). Meanwhile work on estabilishing your own business in the area you want to work and enjoy most.
That way you get to do things the way you want in a field that interests you. However you still have to do some crap but at least it is for you.
Fast forward to the end of the century and I'd spent enough time doing 3D in my spare time to be able to blag my way into the industry (I offered to work for free for two weeks to get my foot in the door). It's been a tough run, especially in the first few years when the money wasn't so good, and there were times when I likened working on the show to a butcher knowing how sausages were made: once you knew what went into them you could never eat them again ;-). But overall it's been worth every minute of it.
The bottom line for me, the thing that made me take the leap and the big financial hit was I was offered the chance to do something I loved for a living, and it was a chance I knew might not come around again so I jumped at it.
I want to make hand made shoes
Where I'm at the jobs all seem to pay nearly the same (ie. either get paid or not at all) so a deciding factor for me would have to be working conditions and job satisfaction. Right now I work for a place that has good job satisfaction but the conditions aren't the best...and our parent company is even worse... I'm not looking yet though... bad work is better than no work...
This page was filtered due to content of a sexual nature. The words "Job" and "Satisfaction" were flagged.
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Self publishing for people with knowledge in a particular subject, science, programming, math.
:)
(shameless plug by me
http://github.com/gbook/nidb
Number nine. Number nine. Number nine...you become naked.
omfglolroffles you got hit with a flamebait for justifying your shitty lack of *n?x skillz. You fuck it still harder.
When you work for yourself its a labor of love.
You dont do things that dont interest you.
How about a job that asked for 40 hours a week and meant it? Decent benefits and liberal vacation ( > 3 weeks / year).
This plumbing analogy leaves something to be desired too. "Come on, twist a few screws, make $42k/year." Doesn't mention that you'll most likely be self-employed, pay your own health insurance without a large group plan, pay your own life insurance, etc. Don't forget the jobs that are getting wet and working in the cold. And collecting the cash yourself, and hiring an accountant or doing your own books, etc.
Just do your job and keep it in perspective. If you think you're working yourself to death, quit. If you want more money, find another job. If you want "x" and your job doesn't have it, write up a Pro's and Con's list and do what you want anyway.
Life is *much* more than work, but having a good mix of the features you want for reasonable hassle is what it's all about.
I'd leave it in a heart-beat if I could find something that could pay me as well as this (even with 1 years unemployed after 9/11/01.)
I loathe I.T.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
Unlike a lot of parents, when I went off to college my folks didn't tell me to look for the best career path or the most profitable industry. They said, "Find what you love to do and do it. If you love your work, the money will come." I've been very happy with my life and career ever since - and the money did come.
I'm always amazed at the number of people in engineering who hate engineering. They did it for the money and they hate their jobs even more because they don't advance in their career. They don't advance because they don't have the passion for the job.
So find your own path, travel the world on a dime, meet interesting people, try new things - new careers even. Well-behaved people rarely change the world.
X
That's a good reason to change jobs right there!
Being an unemployed Engineer/Programmer for the past two years what factors would I have to consider? Let's see... Off hand I can't think of a damn thing. BTW, anyone in DC, India, China, or Russia want my Jeep or credit cards?
he will definitely get laid more working as plumber than as a molecular biologist.
Personally, I would try to be an electrician before I'd take a "shitty" job like plumber.
There ARE attractive chemist and bio girls (we have 2 out of 100) but there are usually swarms of other male labrats, annoying the hell out of them.
I was a software engineer for about 3 years during and after college here in the States. I decided to go back to school and become a physician. I'd be lying if I said I hadn't second-guessed myself along the way (especially when I look at my student debt), but I truly believe this was the right decision for me.
On the plus side, I can't think of another field that tickles my science itch as well as giving me a sense that I have accomplished something concrete and meaningful at the end of the day (usually not a cure, but at least alleviation).
Also, I should point out that diagnosis (especially localization of neurological problems) calls on many of the same faculties as debugging, which I liked quite a bit.
Of course, there are sacrifices. I miss the design and construction aspects of software engineering. I'm putting in longer hours (particularly early in the morning) than I did as an engineer. Anything worthwhile requires work and dedication.
--b
Seriously - its okay to work at a job you don't particularly enjoy. But if you don't love it, then look at it as a purely income-generating exercise. Work the least hours for the most money with the least stress. Then do something you do love with the rest of your time, and never worry about what's going on at the office. In other words, if you're just a wage slave, then by god be a wage slave. The problem is when you start caring too much about your (in reality) wage slave position.
You're special forces then? That's great! I just love your olympics!
Sure, I make pretty good scratch, but what fun is the money if you never get a chance to spend it?
I've heard this from a lot of people. And certainly there are scores of people who spend too much time at work and not enough with their families. But I always remember what happened to some guy who used to work here: he came down with Alzheimer's in his 40s. I work at a scientific/engineering kind of place and, needless to say, your mind is the most important tool you have. This poor guy got struck down with a terrible disease way before his time. He had to retire. He just couldn't do the work anymore. Here's a case where doing the right thing for your family would have been to save up a big chunk of dough to support them if you died or could no longer work. Of course, he didn't know he was going to get Alzheimer's -- and certainly not at such an early age -- so he can't be blamed if he didn't save up a shitload of money "just in case."
The point I'm trying to make is that these issues are tough. No one has the "right" answer. Maybe your family is better off if you take a pay cut and have more time for them. And maybe your family is better off if you work your ass off when you're young and save up a lot of money to support them in case something happens to you. No way to know for sure. It's questions and issues like this that make life so exciting and terrifying at the same time.
GMD
watch this
Heck, I'm already on my way out of IT. I looked around one day, realized I was nearing 30, and no longer want to sit up late at night nursing server installs, or rebuilds, or be on call on weekends, or spend large parts of my day watching progress bars crawl across the screen. Plus, given that lots of IT guys become essentially obsolete at 35, I figured I'd best start analysing my options.
So, I'm doing an IT job that has tuition reimbursement, and am finally getting my degree which I hope to use to change fields. Then I'll do that for ten years or so, until the day comes where I no longer want to be in that field.
Then I'll run for president.
Reeses
I did the same thing. I run a small brick & mortar business. Much more interesting than writing yet another 3-tier web app in a drab, lifeless cubicle. The upside is that not only is it more interesting, but my long term financial picture is excellent. Instead of taking home an admittedly fat paycheck, my net worth is skyrocketing because my business is. It would take a salary of about $1M to get me back in IT. Good riddens!!
Made me feel very bad for making fun of artsies back in school - guess they get the last laugh.
So my wish would be go to Art school, then get a job putting body paint on lovely ladies... oh yea... ;-)
In economics, a "compensating differential" is how much more you need to pay someone to take on a more "distasteful" job. That seems to apply here: you would need to pay me more to take on a crappy (pun intended) job...
But the other thing to note is: that's a ridiculously low salary to be getting as a university PhD researcher! Academic salaries are much higher in the US, overall. For a while not too long ago, academic salaries in the US in many fields were about double the salaries in European universities. The European universities have started to adjust their salaries a bit, but the salaries are still amazingly low.
Funny that it should be brought up because I recently quit my job to return to college. I was a system administrator for a personnel company, and the pay was great. I left because I couldn't stand the IT field anymore.
I say do what makes you happy.
I did this at the end of January.
After a year of taking antidepressants every day to go to work and doing work I wasn't proud of because the place depressed me, I had a conversation with my wife and decided to jump without a net -- no small consideration for a guy making $85k and carrying significant debt. The bottom line for us was that potential financial ruin was better than the depression of going to work at that particular gig day to day.
Talked with my employer in December, and was out the door by the end of January -- a shorter period than I'd hoped (I was hoping to negotiate a longer transition period), but once my wife and I decided to go this route, we knew there might be things that didn't work out as planned.
Fast-forward to the present. I'm bringing in new business (I'm a consultant), but it's not enough to cover the bills. It will be, eventually, but in the meantime a potential bankruptcy looms. That's something we made our peace with as well. I also have headhunters sniffing about, and one of the biggest decisions here is whether to go back to work for Da Man or to see the consulting work through to profitability.
The important point: I feel more at peace, despite these uncertainties, that I have in years.
Most of us put more than just our eight (or 12!) hours a day into our work; what we do matters to us deeply. Given that, life's too short to hate your work, and jumping into an unknown pool sometimes makes a lot of sense.
What factors would make you seriously consider leaving your current career for another? Ever since the Phoenicians invented money, there has only been one answer to that question...
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
Mannn I would kill to get out of IT. After 8 years of this crap I am so ready to do something else... _anything_ else. I have a friend who's done well in IT. He just quit his job and bought an apple farm. Initially we mocked his move.. but then he turned t us and said. "You know what I'm gonna do tomorrow? I'm gonna get up... go to the porch... sit in a chair and watch my apples grow. No cellphone, no on call, no customer busting my balls to make their solution go, just watch my apples grow.. and be picked by someone else." At that point we all went quiet and got whistfull looks in our eyes. Oh yea... anything but IT.
My training is in Slavic Linguistics. After I got my doctorate, I accepted a job as data manager for a drug testing company. The owners have been great to me, but because I have no joy at work, I just gave my six months' notice. I'm seriously considering teaching yoga as my next career, although a return to teaching Russian would be good as well. I think we are created for wisdom and joy. If our jobs are not helping us grow in both, then we are doing ourselves and others a disservice, and it is time to move on.
I should add that I love what I do. Started my own company about a year ago, and we're making it in the enterprise software field. But that's the only real alternative. Either do what you love, for yourself or others it doesn't matter, Or stop worrying about it and find something that pays the bills and lets you have some fun.
You're special forces then? That's great! I just love your olympics!
I just was turned down for a position at a major biotech here in SF. It was the first interview I had had in several years, while I have been at my current employer for ~2 years now, before that I was unemployed for over a year.
I have a realyl good resume, and a fantastic skillset - and seemed to be a very good match for the position - but I didnt interview well... I was really nervous - and they interviewed me rather oddly.
They asked me one specific question "What is the distance limitation on cat5e"
All the otehr questions were behaviour based questions "Describe how you multitask well" "describe a time where setting up a template helped you succeed"
While these are fine questions to ask to get an idea of how someone thinks - I dont think that an interview should be based 100% on these...
So i wanted to change companies - but interviewing with completely ambiguous questions on top of nervousness was hard...
I worked in software development for an international company for 7 years. The last couple of years have been a bitch, with reorgs and power plays I worked for 5 different groups. I lived outside of Washington, DC, where the cost of living was astronomical.
Add to that the fact that the R&D staff is less than 50% of what it was a few years ago, despite our revenue and profits being at record levels. The management mantra was put in more hours, work faster, or we'll send your work to India and walk you out the door.
I bailed, and we moved back to where we had family, the cost of living is 1/2 what it was there and crime actually shocks people. (A man was shot and killed on the corner by my house outside DC 2 weeks before it sold, and we still got more than asking price.) We didn't spend all the money we made during the boom, so we've got cash in the bank, we've got no debt outside of our house, and I can pick up enough contract work for now to make ends meet, people were actually calling me about work before I left. I get the benefit of seeing my 3 kids anytime I want to walk out of my home office, and knowing that they'll grow up knowing their grandparents/aunts/uncles/etc.
If I have to get a 'real job' in a few years, it won't be in software. I always loved cars, and mechanics make pretty good scratch, maybe I'll go to school for that. Kind of hard to ship that managers BMW to India for a tuneup...
Given the chance I'd become a porn star without a second thought.
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Amy
One of the consequences of government price-fixing (in this case, the state setting teacher salaries instead of lettingthe market decide them) is that resources don't get allocated as efficiently. I'd be curious if this were the same in the US, where there are a large number of institutions that don't recieve state funds and students must pay their own way (and thus, teachers would be paid market value for their talents).
-- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
I figure most slashdot readers feel the same way, I like what I do, I was doing it before it was a job, and I'd do it if it wasn't a job. I hate my job, don't get me wrong, but I like computer/computing, even though I don't get much satisfaction from my current job, it's at least on the right career path to something I might actaully like. I've had a few IT jobs that I actually enjoyed already, I'm fairly confident I'll eventually find another one. If those of you who took an accelerated course in IT from you local community college in the hopes you'd join a booming and exciting job market are now having second thoughts, I'd encourage you to be plumbers though ;) You're giving the rest of us a bad rep.
Plumbing is not easy, according to all the plumbers I know. They find it easy, and I find it easy, but it can't be, or they wouldn't have problem finding help that can learn to connect pipes. Prove you can solder two pipes together and plumbers will hire you. Most fail the test, after the plumber shows them how.
Many of my former coworkers and college friends who used to geek out with me have left the IT industry. I just can't stop though. I used to put in 10 hour days just to write more code on the 2 hours of free time I had remaining. Computing is pretty much my only major hobby and it consumes me. I often fret about being so one-dimensional but then there's no point in denying who you are. I'm a CS geek till the end, and I'm loving every minute of it.
That being said, if I could get paid playing waterpolo, I could probably cope with the lost coding time spent in the pool.
-Greater happiness
-Reasonable salary compared to living situation
-More free time
-No more on-call rotation
-Simplification (fewer computers, fewer attachments, fewer obligations)
-Possibility of working outdoors
-Working for myself
If I had a second skillset, I'd probably be using it now instead of sitting at my desk.
This is one of the most insightful comments I have read on here in a while. Definently +1 insightful.
-- the computer doesn't want any beer, no matter how much you think it does. NEVER, EVER feed your computer beer.
if an opening came up for a professional supermodel boyfriend
I have a degree in engineering (and physics). I work in computers, specifically desktop/application support. It provides me with good challenging work without the brain numbing math. I get to play with hardware and software and other toys. In general, it's fun and easy compared to the jobs I went to school for. Even if the pay wasn't superior, I'd probably still stick with this carreer. In order to change careers, it would have to either pay much much more or soemthign I find equally fun. Things such as bad management or projects would only make me find different jobs, not different careers
Of course it is not easy to be in IT, but wouldn't you agree that it's so rewarding. I think that IT is somehow withdrawn from the dramas of the office world.... I can't imagine being one of my usrs , let alone doing something that prevents me from checking SLASHDOT five times a day....
I think I'll be happy doing whatever so long as it pays well and I can live comfortably.
I'm not sure you've thought about this long enough. You spend almost a third of your life at your job. You'd really be happy doing ANYTHING for that third? Since another third of your life is sleeping, you're saying that you'll willing do anything for the work-third so you can enjoy yourself during your non-work-non-sleep-third. I'm not sure that's a reasonable trade. Now factor in the fact that what you do for a career can influence how much fun you have in your non-work time. Suppose you've got a degrading job. How many friends will you have? How will society judge you? How will you feel about yourself when someone at a cocktail party asks what you do for a living and you tell them what you do?
What I'm trying to say is that I don't think your career and social life are really completely separate like you seem to be implying. There's definitely a link between the two. A poor social life can make for a poor working life. A poor career can make you unable to enjoy your social life.
GMD
watch this
Where is that? On the shelf next to your Universal Turing Machine and Flux Capacitor?
Why anyone would want to be a Microbiologist?? I mean I have desire to be a plummer personally, but at least I would get tons of meaningless casual sex... That is unless porn has lied to me... :)
I changed out of IT after the crash in 2000. I started teaching college as a stopgap measure and found it immensely rewarding despite the drastic drop in pay. I got certified to teach math in Florida, and I'm now here looking to teach kids in the public school system. Job satisfaction was the only motivating factor.
At the risk of putting words in your mouth: You tried your hand at a career somewhere in the vicinity of The Greater Mathematical Sciences, found you hated it, and now you're trying to convince teenagers that they should embark on a career that they too will almost certainly hate?
I don't know which is worse, that, or this: You tried your hand at a career somewhere in the vicinity of The Greater Mathematical Sciences, found you couldn't hack it, and now you've come to the realization that those who can, do, and those who can't, teach.
you assume everyone speaks the same language, has a similar cultural experience, and has the same outlook on life.
If you want even your most subtle of sarcasm to be understood, join a tea club in your neighborhood.
"What is the distance limitation on cat5e"
The limit is 100 meters (328 feet). As a good rule of thumb only cable up to 90 meters (295 feet) and leave the last 10 meters (32 feet) for patch cables.
Every 100 meters a switch or hub may be used as a repeater and another 100 meters of cable may be run.
BTW, don't forget to metion that switch to jack is solid wire but jack to device is stranded wire.
Of course nobody actually ever cables this way
According to this:
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos211.htm
The median hourly earnings of plumbers, pipefitters, and steamfitters were $19.31 in 2002. It would take a hell of a lot of hours to make $84K at that rate.
I am a dynamic figure, often seen scaling walls and crushing ice.
Yeah a real bright move getting back into the IT field.. espeacially if you live in the US.
As long as there was no pay cut and the stress is much less, no pager, no cell phone count me in. Well I may rethink the pay cut...
I won't kid you: It hasn't been a blissfest. And the work opportunities for someone with a BS in Comp Sci, a BFA in Digital Media, and an odd assortment of work experience are a lot more limited than I anticipated. But when I think about how I would've spent the last seven years of my life if I'd chosen the other path (i.e. wearing a tie in a cubicle ranch and still just wondering idly if could ever learn to paint), I feel a lot better about my choice.
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
I have changed careers several times in my 20 years of gainful employemnt. From demolition contractor (family business) to coding software for a professional photo lab. I have found that certain jobs just don't fit. I mean I like parts of some jobs I have had, but my current postion has more positives than negatives. I think it is all about how you feel about what you do and what your personal priorities are. Money is also an important part of a career decision, but if personal growth potential is there, it is sometimes better to make the hard decision to take the job that fits and suffer financially for the short term....IMHO
The only thing you can accurately describe as "Scotch" is a sticky tape made by 3M. And it's
My primary reason for getting into IT was simple - I loved computers, and in the absence of any other great interests, it seemed the only logical thing to do. When I left High School, I tried my hand at a programming degree... which I decided wasn't for me. Next came a 6 month stint in tech support for a ISP - mind numbing to say the least. And now, after 13 months, I will have completed my Network Administration Traineeship with a small web developement company here in Australia. I'm pretty damn sure I hate it. It's as if my enthusiasm for computers, tinkering with them, just enjoying them... has been killed of. I can't be sure, but I don't think I could stand working with computers for the rest of my life. A part of me is screaming to get the hell out of this place - the rest is saying in a more calm manner "and go where?" :/
Contrary to popular oppinion, London is not burning. It is, in fact, quite nippy.
While rising with the IT boom, I found both income and outgo had risen 4x. I felt compelled to pursue a non-IT idea, turned hobby, turned innovation, turned small business. My belief was that succeed or fail as a business, I would surely succeed as a person. Friends walked away sensing my lower standard of living, prospect of failure, fear of radical change. I am now succeeding, and the friends are returning. You know, the hardest part is not deciding to make the change. The hardest part is believing in yourself when your sub-culture, sub-community rejects you for "radical" behavior. Yes, I had/have wife and kids, and no it was not easy. I set exit gates, but with each period succeeded and set more gates.
By the way, I employed the Open Source model for a proprietary aerospace innovation. With IP protection of the core idea, I posted a website, made targeted phonecalls, and built a distribution list. The idea developed with broad community buyin and support. Again, it was not easy, 100 rejections for every thinking and engaged expert willing to talk through the idea. But now cash is flowing, profits are rebuilding my lifestyle, and I feel successful. Final point - life after death is what you create while alive. You can create wealth without value, but both together is most satisfying.
But the minute it is no longer more fun than not, I am taking up woodworking full time for a living.
Maybe I'll rebuild/race motorcycles, too...
There exists no way of exchanging information without making judgments. --Bene Gesserit Axiom
does that mean that they'll be hiring?
I've found that coding at home and coding at work to be two very separate tasks.
At work, I have limitations (ie: clueless coworkers, embedded systems limitations, deadlines, etc) that cause me to resent what I do. Writing beautiful code that's equivilant to an optic surgery laser, only to have coworkers treat it like a sledge hammer... is very depressing.
At home, I'm willing to write beautiful code that knows no boundaries and can be as modular and extensable as I desire. It's a real joy to write code at home, much like a creative release from the mundane tasks of the day.
I don't hate coding, I hate having to write neuthered/nerfed code.
If you love something you can make a job of it sucessfully, but it is difficult, and certainly a more difficult road to travel than just doing a well paid job that is hard work. I love coding and I love music. I had a 10 year career as a pro music producer, doing something that really made me happy, work was fun - at least in the beginning. Unfortunately work is rarely physical or mental these days, work is all about dealing with bullshiters. There is a vast middle layer everywhere, largely a product of economics, of professional bullshitters. Dealing with or becomming one of these people is not nice.
The best thing to help you do a job you love is to retain your independence. You can do this by joining a small company, or striking out with your own startup, or just consult independently.
These environments are _real_ and people behave accordingly, work is often a pleasure.
In my experience if you work hard at doing your own thing and avoid dinosaur corporations where the bullshitters hang out there is no difference between work and play. The only problem then is to avoid burning out with 'workaholism' because you like it so much you forget to do other things in your life.
My college degree is a BS in Technical Communication. For years I've been working as a technical writer, or a technical writing manager.
About 6 months ago I realized that I just wasn't satisfied anymore. It was then that I realized that I hadn't been performing up to my skill level, I wasn't interested in what I was doing, and I dreaded going to work.
So, I talked with my boss. He suggested I think about becoming a product manager in a releated product area. I made the move about two months ago, and although things have been tough, I'm really glad I did it. My interest is back and I'm enjoying going to work.
I wouldn't go so far as to say "Do what you love and the money will follow", but if you aren't satisfied with your job, try to find something that meets all of your needs, not just your monetary needs.
Hey English boy, it is "toeing the line". And you shouldn't end your sentences with a preposition.
Sorry, I just love taking jabs at people with English degrees. I had one correct my grammar once. :-)
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
I dont want to be a programmer.
Writing code, chasing bugs, talking about SCO's nonsense... I never wanted to do this job in the first place!
I want to be...
a Lumberjack!
Scientia est Potentia
It's not easy to stop caring too much. You have to tell yourself that you are still a good person. You are not in a position to change all that is wrong in the world.
Test 1 2 3 4
I used to misunderstand this too. Then my sister became a Botanist, and I realized: Botanists take plants out of the ground, while Horticulturalists put them in.
(Botanists observe, collect, study, and hypothesize. Horticulturalists make things grow.)
Tweet, tweet.
After reading most of this entire thread, it seems there should be less of an outcry against coding jobs moving overseas. It sounds like there's a general consensus of coding jobs being boring and tedious, so why aren't more folks optimistic about shelving those jobs to people who will happily do them (cheaper) and freeing people to move on to more interesting (and it appears from several posts better paying) positions?
;-)
Plus, it seems to me, that from a high-level perspective, society will become better off just because so many people are looking for more creative and fulfilling work. Or maybe my youthful optimism has got the better of me today
Hi All,
I bought this house with a pole shed bigger than the house. The shed is 60' x 40'. It has a cement floor and a 12' high garage door with electric opener. It's not insulated though.
One time my brother got ahold of this great big projector with a 50' focal length - but it never worked. That would have been really cool, but not made any money for me. It seems like a guy should be able to use this shed to somehow make money. (I rent out space, but that's only about enough money to pay for my motorcycle maintenance).
The strangest idea I ever heard for it was my friend Wayne suggested we set up big fish tanks, raise tropical fish, and sell em on the internet. Of course lots of people come up with hydroponics, but that's not for me.
Can any of you guys think of something?
Thanks,
Dan
It's better to be the best at what you love, than to be merely average at something you hate.
As the position I've held for the last 8 months is "unemployed", I'd be changing positions with unmitigated glee.
Come to the University of Mars! Classes starting soon!
*not* working with shit.
I listen to my heart and instincts. If a job looks like it is going no where and I am not happy, I quit. So far is has kept me happy and I'm still employed as a programmer. When I go on interviews I don't have to fake enthusiasm. I love to code and live to code. Many people don't have that. Everyday, I acknowledge how lucky I am. I follow one simple rule in my life: don't do something you will regret. Having the courage to follow that is the hard part.
"If he could have found research money, Dr Gensberg would have explored his interest in electro-magnetic fields and their effects on human cells."
That sounds to like one of those nuts that believe you get cancer from you GSM oor looking at the telly. Glad they dont get paid much.
This space is intentionally staring blankly at you
Amen.
I realized a few years ago that I like having all bills paid too, but that I care a lot more about travelling to new and beautiful places during the summer than I do about having cable TV during the winter. You choose your luxuries in life. My luxuries are less material and more quality-of-life things. I can pay off all my bills even living under the poverty line, and I'm much happier now than I was when I had more bills-- and a LOT more money.
I was a programmer for a while, most notably during the bubble. I was paid really well, enjoyed the work itself most of the time, and got great perks. I also worked in an office with no windows 40 to 50 hours a week, and it could be pretty frustrating at times (in a damn, this idiot will NEVER understand the point I'm trying to make! kind of way) So I decided to go back to school.
I'm working on a PhD in archaeology. The stipend I'm living off of is a quarter of what I was making at my old job (not considering things like inflation and the raises I would've gotten between then and now.) I can't afford cable or to go out for dinner all that much; I'm living below the poverty line. But I love my life! I travel every summer to exotic places, I love what I spend my time doing, I am intellectually challenged every minute of the day, set my own schedule again, and am excited about the fact that I have so much freedom to determine where I will be in the future. Which university or universties I'll end up teaching at, where I'll do my research, all of the places I'll be able to visit. All of the reading I'll do and all of the time I'll spend outdoors instead of in an office with no windows. It'd be great if at some point I make a lot of money again, and I'm sure I'll manage to do just fine (under the poverty line is for grad students; I don't plan to stay here forever.) But for me, it was no choice: job and LIFE satisfaction over any amount of money, any day.
Do something about world hunger. Click here
IANAP, but I have a freind who is a handyman. He does all sorts of jobs - carpentry, electrical, landscaping, but he won't touch plumbing because the insurance costs are astronomical. Apparently, anything with a blowtorch in tight flammable spaces where a fire may start unnoticed and eventually burn down the house... tends to have a high premium.
HIV Crosses Species Barrier... into Muppets
However, the pay doing that sort of thing is absolutely wretched. To make ends meet, he worked as a tree surgeon- which payed substantially better than his doctorate.
...I went there, and my girlfriend got her Phd there...believe me there is no air conditioning.
IIRC my girlfriends lab was so warm (uncomfortably so) as the heating was controlled from a building in London (!?!?!?!?!?!).
Also, Birmingham University is where the last death from smallpox happened...some of it got into an air vent and infected a photographer in a lab upstairs.
Now dont get me wrong, Birmingham is a very good uni but they treat their postdocs like absolute shit and I really don't blame the guy for leaving.
My girlfriend got so pissed off with all of the backstabbing in science and became a teacher...makes much more than she did as a scientist and actually enjoys helping people instead of trying to stop other scientists stealing her groups work.
You would think researchers would work together for the greater good, and it really disgusts me that the majority do it for their own nefarious purposes (money, fame etc.) and will do anything to achieve them.
I am NaN
And I was just going to offer you the option to live until 134 for fifty cents... but I see you are not interested
I used to love my job for the challenge of it. That is, when the challenge of my job was finding creative solutions to difficult problems for business leaders that truly appreciated the full effects of my contribution. Now, the challenges of my job are organizational or political far too often, and the love is gone.
I figure that I make about as much as my local garbage man. Get about the same level of respect these days, but probably have twice the headaches.
Not saying I want to be a garbage man now, but I can appreciate the value of a "simpler career" these days. Can also honestly say that I've peaked over the fence on more than one occassion, wondering if the grass is truly greener "over there", or if my career has peaked, and this is as good as it gets. I have skills that could migrate me into some other business disciplines, and I have seriously considered going to law school, but I figure the problems get to be pretty much the same regardless of where you are. There are drawbacks to everything. Trick is to find someplace where you can live with all of them without compromising your sanity or ethics. Some might say, "a needle in a haystack", but I remain hopeful...sort of.
I didn't really know what I wanted to do after high school. This was about 2 millenia ago, in computer terms (or about 1988), and I was filling out my college applications. I had always liked computers (C=64's rule!), and had written a few things here & there. I had also liked playing/reading Gamma World stuff (yeah, D&D nut who evolved into GW), and mutants were what made GW fun. For some reason, this led me to do well in the genetics section of 11th grade biology.
As I sat there, filling out the application form, I was deciding between going into computer science or going into genetics. I decided on genetics, since I certanly didn't want to spend all day sitting on my arse in front of a monitor!
Fastforward a few years, add on a BS in Genetics and a MS in Biology. And mix in the realization that I was spending all day sitting on my arse in front of a lab bench! Not much of an improvement.
But it turns out modern genetics is heavily computer oriented, and I started playing with the labs computers. Pretty soon I was writing little excel macros, then java proggies to help visualize genetic linkage groups. Pretty soon I switched to a computer job within the lab, and haven't looked back since.
I was looking for a job during the dot BOOM, when code monkeys were in such demand that you got hired if you knew C (or any other letter in the alphabet), and could prove you had a pulse. The pulse part was even negotiable. 4 years later, I'm one of the lead coders, and manage a large project for the company. I'm also finishing up a MS in CS, so if it becomes time to hunt for a job again, I'll at least be able to say I have a CS degree. I'm very happy with the switch. The money is a huge improvement over being in biotech; but I also like the job much better. And yes, I sit in front of a monitor all day. But the chair has better padding than the lab bench stool ever did...
Save the Music; Save the World at http://www.TuneTriever.com (Our latest Android game)
"Life is either a daring experience or nothing."
be a porn star? : )
Two years ago, I was a network architect and software developer for a very large (probably the largest...) ISP. I was making a six-figure salary, had a nice apartment, a Jeep, and a pretty comfortable life. However, I wasn't happy. My heart just wasn't in the IT field and I decided to make a major lifestyle change. I quit my job, sold my Jeep and moved back home to complete the college degree that I never quite finished. I decided to make my new career in the military. I signed up for Army ROTC at my university and proceeded to get my fat, lazy ass in shape. ROTC totally changed the way I lived. I started waking up at 4:30am amd doing push-ups and sit-ups every night. Before I knew it, I was 29 years old but in the best shape of my life.
:)
Here I am, two years into my career change, and I couldn't be happier. Sitting in a cube all day made me very sad. Although the transition was very, very tough and very, very uncertain for a while, I've come through it happier than I have ever been. If all goes as planned, I will be a college graduate and an officer in the United States Army four months from today.
Yes, you can change your career and improve your life. Ask me how.
I had to this for my Plumbing merit badge when I was like 12.
Damn it, I took the wrong path after my undergrad. And to think I took out 25K in grad student loans to learn how to write a fucking grant proposal to do scientific research.
Some contractor examples made me consider it:
My friend wanted plenty of electrical sockets so though he spec'ed 3 per wall, he wanted to make sure that it was being done right. Drives out to the job site and finds the contractor and country inspector do the last walk-through on the outlets and such. My friend looks at the outlets and notices that the ground was nicely screwed into the junction box wall... except the junction boxes were all PVC plastic. My friend calls them over and say "do you anything wrong with this outlet box?" "Nope, looks fine!" "It's not supposed to be screwed into a plastic box...!" "Hey, it's OK. The code says to do that" The county inspector nods approvingly. "Ah, do you know why you need to ground that line?" "Well, yeah, you can get electrocuted - electricity's dangerous!" "Ok, so how does grounding protect you?" "Well, the power can go through the ground instead of you" "Yes, ok. So if the ground is connected to plastic, which doesn't conduct electricity, how do that ground protect you?" They both think for a minute, and in horror look at each other. Apparently neither of them was available for a few weeks as the contractor and inpector went back to several hundred other new homes, "just to check them one more time". ;-p
Same house, same contractor. My friend has a long driveway going down a hill. He wanted 24V lighting in the concrete retaining wall along the wall. He drops by and notices that the contractor has a spool of 22 gauge telephone wire out next to the cement forms. "Ah, aren't you going to use a heavier gauge than that?" "Oh no, this is low voltage stuff! You don't big stuff" "Yes, low voltage but it's a 500 ft run. The current.." "Hey don't worry about, I know what I'm doing" "Ok, so you'll test it before they pour the concrete tomorrow?" "Yeah, sure." Well, you know he didn't test it under days after the pour. As expected, the light went on in the upper third and then got gradually dimmer and none were lit on the lower third. After ~$5K spent by the contractor paying to demolish the wall, repipe and wire with 10 gauge, and laying a new wall, the lights worked perfectly.
So in this context, I began thinking, WTF, given that I clearly know what I'm doing compared to the "competition" and they're making $80-120K per year (this is in 1984!), what would I be making and and how does that compare to the low-ball job offer I just got for $25K a year at Northrup? The problem was I know I have a craving for having things "interesting" and "challenging". I didn't take the lame Northrup offer (they were actually surprised I wasn't kissing their feet for amount they offered! Bastard PhDs! To them BSEE meant overpaid technician!) I strongly suspected I'd get bored far too soon as an electrical contractor (even with the money). I went to work at a military think-tank instead, which was a pretty wild time. And the rest is history... :-)
I have, however, had many jobs in many wildly different fields. My rule of thumb has always been: if job stops being "fun" more than 50% of the time, it's time to look for something new. No job is fun 100% of the time but 50% isn't an unreasonable expectation IMO. Each time I've been well stretched and well challenged. It's gotten to the point that the only Myers-Briggs recommended job for my personality that I haven't done yet is being a lawyer!
Nerd with an MBA
I've changed careers five times now in my 40+ years on the planet. By "career change" I mean a completely different line of work than what your experience or education trained you for, not a "job change" where you are working in the same employment sector.
[As much as some might protest, there's not a lot of *job* difference between a QA tester and a software jock. OTOH there is a *career* difference between a software jock and a flight attendant. If you're only moving across the street to a competitor with a slightly better view from your cube, you're not changing careers.]
I highly recommend changing careers several times throughout your life. You get the chance to follow different paths to see where they lead, discover new talents or reacquaint yourself with old talents, and in general prevent hardening of the thought arteries from setting in. Besides, it's much more exciting to say, "I quit my programming job to count migrating birds in Argentina!" than to say "I programmed at the same company for twenty years!"
As far as I know, you only get one life. Might as well make an adventure out of it.
Microsoft/SCO vs open-source was the match that lit the fuel to drive me into law school.
I am currently waiting on about two dozen law school applications and hopefully at least one of my top choices will accept me. Next up was returning to my first love - carpentry, but I'm too old (37) and my body hurts.
However, it goes far beyond that. Since I'm moving to a place that I want to explore for a few years, I made sure I wasn't in a salaried position, like I am now. Sure, I'm taking a pay cut, but on the whole, I honestly feel it is worth it to get time off and not have to worry about being tied to an electronic leash 24/7. We'll see what I think a year or so from now, when the savings are dented, but I didn't take that much of a hit, so I should be OK.
Some things to think about:
Why am I dissatified with my current job? Is it due to short term problems, or long term? In my case, the job changed and it didn't look like things were going to get any better any time soon.
Is there any place I have always wanted to live and/or work? Why am I not going there? Are the reasons I'm not there enough to keep me where I am now?
If I decide to move, is there work in my field of interest? If not, do I have skills that will translate to another field (most people have lots of skills that are useful in many fields)?
What will happen to my family and friends?
Is this move for love or money? I've learned over the years that most people who work for money are miserable and usually broke because they are always attempting to fill the hole in their lives by spending all the money they were intending to save in the first place. People who are doing something they love to do seem to be able to control their spending and still get what they need in the world (a few of them even prosper far beyond their wildest imaginations). Of course, if we all did what we loved, most of us would be sitting around in our underwear eating cheese in front of the TV!
Finally, remember that the grass may be greener on the other side of the fence, but you still have to mow it!
"Well, good luck finding a judge that doesn't run a bestiality site."
Just something to consider when trying to distinguish between hobbyists and career programmers.
"It's not your information. It's information about you" - John Ford, Vice President, Equifax
in this area, NC, I make much more driving a truck, then I could as an electronic tech..and I retired from the military as a chief electronic tech..and it's much more pleasant.
Advice given to me by my father.
Of course I haven't followed it, but I'm seriously considering starting.
My Linux Command of the Day site : LCOD
Work 2 days a week,
Earn $ 500,000 a year
have 3 months vacation.
Any ideas?
ooops.. nevermind
I don't know what to say. reading all the responses, this sorta hits home.
I just quit my job as a web developer last friday.
My wife had just gotten a job as an office manager, and I was quickly getting worn out from the constant flow of customers assulting my sanity. I had a baseball size ulcer and felt like crap every day.
I've been debating what to do with my life now. I have a little bit of leeway with the wife (she was unemployed for a year), so now I have some choices. I've done web dev for 3 years, and have only been out of college for 6 months. I have an assload of loans to pay off, so I have to get a job eventually. The problem is I don't know what to do- I don't even know if I want to be in the field anymore.
I'm going to take a week or two off, fix up some things I've been meaning to get to, and look at my options. I have several things to choose from:
* programmer
* web developer
* sys-admin
* tech writer
* job that requires college education, but not a specific field
* job that requires no education, manual labor
All things equal I'd like to admin a small network for a small company, but that's not likely to happen. I'm not a great programmer, and I'm ok at web dev. My writing style is mediocre, and my spelling sucks.
My options seem pretty limited at this time.
any thoughts on what I should do next?
-morgajel
Looking for Book Reviews? Check out Literary Escapism.
To all of you who are thinking of getting out of computing.... To all of you who's heart is in a different place... To all of you who long to be doing something different...
Please leave.. Go-on.. Go... Run along now... Turn off your PC and go and do something different....
Since I'm an anonymous coward I can say this without fear of retribution... There's far too many people working in computing who really shouldn't be doing it. Far too many people who just want to take home a wage and don't really enjoy the computing... There's no minimum requirement for calling yourself a computer-technician/programmer/whatever so every wannabee MCSE assumes they know what they're talking about after a 3 week course and 2 months on first-line support.
I'll freely admit that I think that most of the people I work with are clueless lackwits who aren't possessed with even the basic ability to use Google to look for things they don't know about.. In all my years of working, I can think of perhaps 4 people I've worked with who I'd rate as competant.. (I rate myself as competant.. I don't think I'm particularly special.. I'm certainly no genius)
Everywhere I've ever worked I've quickly been signled out as 'something special' and managed to negotiate myself large rate raises as a result. It's depressing that standards have dropped to such an extent that I'm considered as 'something special'
There's far too many people working in computing now and it's very hard to differentiate yourself from the marjoity of people or to claim a worthwhile wage until you've managed to prove your abilities over the course of several months.. In my life I've never done anything except computing and electronics.. If you give me a bag of transistors, I'll build you a computer.. Then I'll program it.. and then I'll make sure it never goes wrong. I've been using computers every day for the past 22years (I'm 30 years old now) and I really can't think of anything else I'd rather be doing.
I've recently improved my working conditions but dropped my wages by going-it-alone... I've been getting enough happy clients over the years that I can work whenever I want, wherever I want and still get by quite nicely.
So.. please... everyone who wants to do something else... go.. now.. and leave your old wage packet for me.
...It's how you do it.
Trust me - I've done it.
I first got deeply into IT when I was living in the Arctic in the early 90s. A few of us got together and brought this wacky thing called the Internet to one of the most remote locations on Earth. People loved it, and even though we worked for peanuts with ridiculously poor resources, we loved every minute of it.
When I moved back 'South', my salary doubled, then increased again. I was working with really clever people, some of whom remain friends to this day. I had the car, the home network, the play time - everything a geek could want.
But I wasn't happy. I didn't feel like what I was doing was useful to anyone but myself.I'm now working as a volunteer in the South Pacific, trying to make things better for computer users in a tiny island nation. I've been reduced to ridiculously poor resources (I'm composing this over a 56k dial-up line shared over the network by 6 computers). I have been stranded for a week by a passing typhoon, which, incidentally, just destroyed the computer training center I was helping to develop. I have to face the real possibility of deadly malaria, of dengue fever, tropical ulcers, foot-long poisonous centipedes and even sharks. I'm paid a few hundred dollars a month.
... And I'm loving every minute of it.
P.S. You can read an account of my adventures on LiveJournal.
- there's a lot of stuff out there you just don't get to enjoy when you're inside a building 8-12 hours a day.
. . . like truck-stop ho's?
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
I wouldn't change careers because I have a great lifestyle with my current career.
/. all day!
I'm a web designer/developer/flash animator. There is still a small, but not completely gone, market for this work. And in the past, I've worked in whatever corporate environment would have me. Mostly in stodgy office cubicles surrounded by inept marketing twits. So I left that environment and molded my own.
Now I run my own company from a home office, mostly subcontracting through the same marketing companies I used to work at. But now I get to set my own hours, work in comfortable clothes, have my own music at however loud I like, fix my own meals (much cheaper than eating out), there's no commute, etc. etc. etc. Most importantly, when my wife has her baby in June and becomes a stay-at-home-mom, I'll be here with both of them too.
And I'm making much better money than I was before. Actually, it's easier to raise my rates in this situation than asking for a raise in my old situation. I can turn down projects if I want to, or work on extra projects if I want to.
And I get to read
Bottom line -- I would have to get one hell of a job offer to convince me to go back to a button-down-shirt-and-commute lifestyle. A simple raise would not cut it. It would have to be enough to justify leaving a lifestyle I'm very comfortable and happy in.
Punctanym: alternate spelling of words using punctuation or numerals in place of some or all of its letters; see 'leet'
I'm still doing the day-job thing. I'm a programmer and net/sys admin for a large university. But, I'm starting a rental business on the side. I buy homes and rent them out to the college kids. 100% rental, year-round. One day, I'll easily be able to quit work and still have a nice lifestyle... there's nothing like passive income. I like going to bed at night knowing that some renter is probably making a check out to me for $900 ;)
Tivo.
Don't watch the crap.
Schedule the good stuff, forget the rest. I mean, do you watch movies, or are you just turned off on watching flickering lights?
Tivo helped me realize I want to watch more shows than I have time for. Now with Tivo, I watch fewer shows, but never miss what I really *wanted* to watch.
Suggestions for your Season Pass list? "Scrubs". "Red Dwarf". "South Park". the revamped "Headbangers Ball", maybe, though maybe not. Oh, and those Discovery, History, and TLC channel shows you like, if you must. At least you'll be able to skip the commercials...
That job has a terrible mortality rate
IMHO, when athletes are making tens of millions of dollars, actors are making tens of millions of dollars, (biased) newscasters are making tens of millions of dollars, lawyers are making tens of millions of dollars, politicians are making tens of millions of dollars, there's something wrong. When educators, scientists, healthcare providers (Beverly Hills plastic surgeons and their ilk don't count), bust their asses to make ends meet, something's wrong. A few years back, there was a story on the local L.A. news about the most expensive piece of real estate in Long Beach being sold for 10 million dollars. The previous owner ran a chain of "diet salons." Robin Williams said it best. "I... WILL... NOT... BUY... STUPID... CRAP... FOR... NO... DAMN... REASON!"
Why not just got to Iraq?
It's safer.
c/b
I came out into the IT field a couple years ago. Just after the dot com crash.
The job market sucked. Not only that, but the hours that were expected were not something that I really wanted to do. 80 hours a week? Making $60k - $80k? Sounds great until you really look at it. Outside of IT the average work week is 40 hours. So what that really means is that someone working 80 hr/week making (let's be generous) $80k is in all reality making $40k.
Why would I want to do that? I want to have a life outside of work. Sure I enjoy programming, sure I love developing databases. But you know what, that's not enough to keep me in the field. Not with what is demanded from me. (Cost:Benefit ratio)
I've switched over to environmental engineering. And you know what? I've had the time of my life. I get to look at all the sciences (biology, chemistry, physics, and so on) and apply them to solve problems that we are facing now. And now I can get into a job that isn't demanding 80 hour weeks for a $50k salary. And I know that when I'm done getting my degree, I will be able to find a job.
I left a promising career in computational physics (which is what I really love doing) in order to feed my family. Somehow, after 10 years in grad school the prospect of working for another 10 years before discovering whether I had a permanent position seemed grossly unfair to impose upon my wife and daughter.
2 years into my new career I was able to comfortably support my family. 4 years in and my employer really liked what I was doing (they had doubled my salary in that time). I found it somehow humorous that I was earning more than folks in physics for 25+ years.
A decade later I am out on my own. I find the turf wars within universities to be petty and basically wastes of time and energy. Companies are not loyal to you, no matter how much they pay you, and "value" you as "their most important asset." I found I am really good at the business and creative technical side. I formed one company, worked at it for a while and am in the process of starting another and seeking funding (venture money).
Yeah, it's not what I trained for. I do miss having the deep bullshit^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hintellectual discussions with colleagues outside of my field. I miss teaching.
I do not miss the pay, on which I could not afford to keep a roof over my families head, pay for food, and allow my family at least a modicum of normality. This isn't my problem per se, it is endemic and symptomatic of the bigger issue to which you alluded.
Society does not reward intellectual achievement. It simply does not care. It is not sexy. It is not chic. There are (ignoring the Nobel and other prizes), no Science Oscars.
We as scientists have done a piss-poor job at explaining why what we do is valuable to society at large. We have not made the case.
This is a shame. MD's have made the case, though HMO's have weaseled into the game. We need collectively, to make the case of attributing the value to the science.
Too bad my prototype just blew up. Thanks a lot, mister.
I love programming, but I sit at my desk all day, and then go the gym to try to stay in shape. I wouldn't mind switching things around so that I do some manual job that keeps me in shape and then program as a hobby. It would be hard to find something with the same pay and benefits though.
on their plans, as stated in the other comments, it looks like my job will be secure a bit longer.
Go, be botanists, make guitars, teach math.
"A molecular biologist with a PhD at University of Birmingham, in the UK, quits his lab position to become a plumber"
Maybe if there was a free market in prescription drug development in Europe (like in the US, for now anyway), there would be more investment in biology research. This would raise the value of a knowledge of molecular biology, and maybe this guy could get paid more than a plumber.
I've been seriously thinking about a career change for the last couple of month. The mob I currently work for is killing me. We've just gone under administration, we've been bought out by another west coast ISP, and they're not keeping any of the technical staff. I really did love what I do. I'm a systems administrator for an ISP. I put in 12 hour days because I actually enjoy being there. It's such a shame... The only choice I'm seriously considering is the military at the moment. I figured I'd give IT another 6 months and if I've had it I'll enlist.
I just loved the irony in that article, even though it seems to have escaped the author himself.
The university teachers are leaving their jobs because of the meagre pay.
Yet, at the same time they are on strike protesting the fee raises and the general "marketisation" of higher education !
Well, the money's gotta come from somewhere. I wonder if the economics professors are participating in the strike... That would be a double irony.
I quit a perfectly good job as a web developer in December 2002 to start a nonprofit organization. I wrote an article about the factors that went into my decision. You can read it here.
It starts like this:
1) Enjoy your job
2) Make lots of money
3) Don't break the law
Choose any two.
Never give any object more potential energy than you want it to have.
..whether I like it or not, and do it with a smile.
Not because I crave money, but because I have a family to feed.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
Dude;
> not everyone can code 4000 (good) lines in a week
Especially not network administrators.
> Yes it is a horrible plan (ebay selling combined with windshield repair)
I'm sure you'll make good with all your ebay selling and windshield repair. Clearly both more lucrative then writing (good) software.
> and plan on hiring part time java programmers
Which part of your business are they going to help with? The windshield repair? or the ebay selling?
> I still come back here even though 95% of the posters on slashdot haven't a clue
I see you what you mean.
k
my interests are primarily in computer and network performance evaluation, and writing the appropriate tools or using some modeling/simulator tools (like OPNET or NS). Several years ago when I had to change the job, I had two offers. One was exactly what I was looking for (evaluating performance of networked applications), with some salary decrease. Another was truly outstanding offer in terms of salary (over 100 grands), *BUT* I had to learn and work with firewalls and general security issues - for which I have exactly zero interest. I've selected the first offer. The funny part is that the company whose offer I've accepted went through the series of massive layoffs, and as a result I'm currently enemployed -- yet I still believe I've made a right decision, that is, didn't go just for the big bucks. The key for me is enjoying doing what you really like to do. So right now I'm taking some fairly advanced courses in computer and network performance (on post-grad level) which keeps me busy, and hope for the better, but I still don't even consider learning firewalls and security even if with this skills I could probably get an employment really quickly. But that's my attitude. If some biologist doesn't particuarly care about what he's doing, and plumbing pays more, why not plumbing? That's his attitude.
A good manager I had known boiled it down to Life's Priority List. For him, and I tend to agree, it's
- Health
- Family
- Work
There are many ways to apply this, but with regards to the "Stay or Go" question at work, look at it like this.If you hate your job so much that you literally are unhealthy while doing it, then change it as soon as possible, regardless of the consequences.
If you like your job well enough, and it pays enough to support your family (if you have one), then you're doing well where you are.
If you can change your job to something you love doing while supporting your family and staying healthy, then make the move to doing what you love.
Some people are lucky enough to be doing what they love and being well-compensated for it, good for them.
In truth, my job (engineering project management) is very satisfying, but I don't enjoy it as much as I do music. However, for whatever reasons (lack of talent, practice etc.), I can't make a living with the latter, but do well with the former. So although I'm not in personal bliss, I get to enjoy life, pay my bills, and get some personal satisfaction out of work too.
"Who are you?" "No one of consequence." "I must know." "Get used to disappointment."
There's a book which basically attempts to answer the very question you're asking. What Should I Do with My Life? is an unfortunately titled, but otherwise valuable look at many people who made the brave choice to persue happiness in another field. For some it worked, others it didn't.
If you can get past the occasional self-important passages where the author tries to sound like he's got everything figured out, there's really a lot of inspirational material in this book. To someone like the poster who is actually asking themselves, "What should I do with my life?", this book can be a big help.
"Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos!"
...the laborers who helped gut it were hispanic. As were the dry wall guys, and the painters. The carpenter was I don't know what - I am guessing Uzebistan (sp).
The electrician was a redneck American (as am I... well WV hillbilly more describes me). The plumber was black with a trace of Nigerian in his voice.
The HVAC guy was from Poland.
My point? Well, IT was full if foreigners before they decided to wholesale ship it offshore... the only difference is that home improvement requires the person to be onsite. I can't think of a way to change this - yet. But then again a month ago I went to Okinowa - my entire hotel room was modular and prefab....
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
clicky for beeb news item 16/5/03
yep plumbers and builders and carpenters at the moment can charge shedloads because there aren't that many about (and even fewer who are any good)
its called the market. its kinda like around Y2K when all the big banks had gone internet crazy and you could get contracts for stupid amounts (I myself was on 650GBP a day - $1300 at the current rate).
now its a damn sight lower. partially due to outsourcing and partially due to the govt granting work permits to people with IT skills
And the other benefit of course, you are your own boss!
Heh. No, I very happily have a 'No Lot Lizards' sticker on my truck for a reason. When I'm at a truck stop, I'm there to sleep, dangit!
I sing the doggie electric!
"Don't quit your job! Just go in every day and do it really half-assed!"
- H.J. Simpson
if you work as a plumber, you're a... plumber. you will associate with plumbers and the like from now on. congrats, you've just become trash.
isn't working outdoors
also a workplace with no windows?
And the stories we heard in training were intense. I mean, heck, the boss would walk over, close the door and in a hushed tone would tells us how he banged the boss's ex-wife or was shot at and other stuff.
Granted, his experience was awhile ago, in the '80s and '90s and in california so things may change, but if you are good looking enough, there still might be the chance for adventure and STDs in the house-call service industry!
yes, i have a nick, but i'm posting a/c
Hey Correctoboy,
...
I'll give you "toe the line", which I knew I had wrong as soon as I clicked submit. Leave it to Slashdot to have at least one reader spot it and view it as an opportunity to geekvent previous injustices wrought against his/her sensitive nerdsoul
However, on the prepositional deal, you're flat-out wrong, bud. There is no such rule. It is simply good advice since ending a sentence with a preposition can lead to ambiguities. Winston Churchill, criticized for ending a sentence in a preposition, once responded, "This is a form of pedantry up with which I will no longer put." It's a style issue, not a grammar issue, and I would argue that my excerpted sentence did not create an ambiguity or lead to any grammatical awkwardness.
So -- you know, relax. Work out your issue with English majors, starting with that guy that corrected your grammar, and let those scars heal. It's a beautiful world, man. Just be at peace. Be at peace.
Chr0m0Dr0m!C
This has been the best topic yet! I wish you all luck.
plain and simple, i follow the money, who ever pays me the most i will work for... but now that i am diabetic it's who ever pays me the most and offers health benefits. I have loyalty to only myself and my wallet, er debit card. For in the past 6 jobs that i have had i have never seen loyalty rewarded, not for me or anyone else that has been there, yeah we get nice little year pins(if they remember to give them out)but that's it, the $0.10 raise per year is an insult, which means by retirement time will be making $3.00 more per hour than I makeing now!!?! FUCK THAT! i can't even cover my bills now, all this job is doing is making a burdon on society later on. might as well kill myself
You know, I always thought that being a trucker would be something fun to do when I retire. See the country, meet all kinds of interesting people, and all that. But now I'm curious. How's the pay? Do they care that you're basically overqualified for the job? What're some of the best parts of the job?
:)
Sorry if I seem nosy, this just piqued my curiosity!
Say no to tenure = tripple your salary.
People stay in crappy jobs because they feel trapped without options. If you suck, maybe that's true. Mostly though, people just lack confidence in their own abilities, trapped in the prison of their own minds.
I wouldn't do it if I were you.
I've got a PhD in molecular biology, and the pay is terrible, the working conditions are hazardous, you're treated like dirt by your supervisor and have to work 60 hours a week. You spend years getting a PhD (only 5 years if you're lucky and your project goes well), then another 5 years postdoc-ing, then six or seven years trying to get tenure, assuming you can get a faculty job. Oh, and all the four-year schools expect you to have a research program now.
Meanwhile you have bad (or no) health insurance, no retirement etc. Then your car dies, or you have to have major dental work or something, and you can't afford to fix it.
I quit the profession after getting my PhD, and I haven't regretted it in the least.
Half of the year I am a firefighter for "the DNR" Then in the winter I work in their IT section. Keeps me from getting burned out...
What you probably make: $40K-50K
What people will pay for consultants: $100-$200/hr
If the consultant is steady work, the obvious comes out. Less work, better pay. Calculate it for yourself, make sure you match health insurance and 401k offerings. You'll find that 15 hours a week at $100/hr is a good way to go, IF you can get steady work.
Plumbers have it made. Plumbing is slow, tedious, DEPENDABLE work. A simple job is a minimum of 2 hours, $100/hr, well, one decent job a week will pay the bills. Going out on your own makes far more, and if you can secure work, the rewards are endless. Not having steady work is a good way to shoot yourself in the foot. It's a risk, weigh the options for you take it.
I'll finish with a true story:
I make around $40K at my job. I have all the certifications (MCSE, CNA, CCNA) that I need. I perform the tasks of those certifications on a regular basis. My boss has decided that my $20/hr opinion isn't worth as much as a $150/hr consultant, with no credentials, who has never visited our site. I built it from scratch, I know it inside out. Obviously I'm more qualified, I needed to teach him a lesson.
So, I tricked him. I have a side business, and I dropped off a business card for a "local consulting firm". We conversed over e-mail, and set up a time. He agreed to pay $100 for the initial consultation. I went home for lunch, changed into khakis with a shirt and tie, and showed up as the consultant. His face was beet red when he found out it was me, but I'm $100 richer and my boss is more eager to listen to me.
There is no reasonable defense against an idiot with an agenda
:wq
I find it fitting to quote from my web journal on this topic:
I currently have a decently-paying IT job. I have plenty of work to do, plenty of job security, and enough money to live comfortably on. Suprisingly, though, I'm dying to get out of here. I'm growing fat, my muscle mass is miniscule, my eyes are getting worse, and I don't have enough time to pursue my studies, which are more important to me than money. I'm eyeing a radical change of expertise - something like construction (ala Office Space). I want to be out of this office, into the open air. Away from this desk, closer to the Earth.
I'm willing to take quite a pay cut to gain these benefits, but money is already very tight on the respectable salary I currently make. I can't imagine HOW I'd get by on the presumably-lower wage of a general laborer or some sort. Our budget does not have much room for crunching, aside from our fairly-frequent restaurant visits. Still, even if we cut down to zero restaurant visits, I still don't believe that would be a significant enough change to make this income change feasible. So, this is one thing that REALLY puzzles me - how do other people get by on less than I do?
I'm also worried about qualifications. Once you dig yourself into a career, is it too late to climb out and start digging elsewhere? Are you doomed to following that course forever? If so, I'm unhappy, because nobody warned me about this when I started out. If I'd known it was the case, I would have put more thought into it. I mean, although I never really considered anything other than computers, I think I always believed in the back of my mind that any decision was reversible. How can I derail my career and hop onto another track without significant time and money problems? I'd like to avoid formal education if at all possible, because.. well.. because I hate it. On-the-job education would be terrific - hey, I'm a fast learner!
These are the two main factors that prevent me from submitting my letter of resignation today. Can you please give me some feedback/reassurance about them?
I need to break free, start over! Have I been enslaved by my line of work and my dependence on money, or is there hope? I leave the answer in the hands of my trusted readers.
You can run but you can't hide, except, apparently, along the Afghan-Pakistani border.
As a php/xml/xsl website coder I love my work - if I could I'd work for free but that's not a feasible option.
;) - this jobs worth a good (UK)5000 to me for little over a weeks work :-D
I have been out of work for nearly a year but couldn't give a monkies as I've spent this time to develop my skills and this has paid off as I'm now working for a previous employer whom when I left I took his server off line to get his attention.
The only advice I could offer on what work you do is do what you feel is right and stick to it no matter how hard things my become as if you have a passion and the ability to do what you like then thing will all come right.
By the way I've just landed a contract to do the website for the worlds largest mall (when complete) so I know I'm not talking BS here
None, will leave at a moments notice.
Emply me, please.
If I hear someone say the internet is broken one more time, I shall string 'em up with RJ45.
Wow, I should not post when knackered.
They are soft-money positions. You aren't expected to stay a post-doc for very long (1-2 years). More than that and you can kiss a real tenure-track position good bye because it doesn't look like you can finish anything.
I recommend you learn about your field and stop pissing your graduate degree away.
I was a computer tech for a long, loooong time, untill I ended up in a small ISP in a smaller Okalhoma town. I caught my boss (may he forever remain nameless) with child porn on his office computer, He had it shared out on the network! Needless to say, I turnbed him in the the local 5-0 and ended up out of a job. To make ends meet, I took a cooking job at the local country club. I now make TWICE what i did as a tech, have NO (l)users to deal with and am completely stress free (except on holidays). If I would have known how thibngs turned out, I would have changed long ago. i though the tech sector was the best this town had to offer.
You know why that guy decided to move to Canada? I'll let you in on their secret:
;-)
Canadians have the best country in the world!
Yep, right there under the 3-meter snowbank...
You're not old until regret takes the place of your dreams.
nt
nt
yep nt
I totally busted your weedy Unix chops.
You think new cars every year is bad? Hell, at least the way an engine works stays pretty much the same year after year.
Bad example. My car has no distributor. The cam is under computer control. It has no starter, altinator, power steering pump, throttle cable/linkage, etc. There are only two items on the belt. The water pump and the AC compressor(old model, New model has removed the AC from being directly engine driven). There is no cable to the throttle. The power steering has no pump. The power brakes are not vacuum assist. The transmission has NO clutches, bands, torque converter, or friction parts of any kind. No mechanical linkages move from drive to reverse. The only mechanical shift piece is the park pin. The transmission doesn't even disengauge anything when the engine shuts itself off while cruising a parking lot. The transmission ratio is continusly variable from reverse to freeway speeds without using hydraulics. Oh did I mention the high voltage. A factory trained high voltage electrician is needed to change the traction battery. A regular mechanic is likely to get fried on the 300 (old model) or 500 volt (2004 model) traction battery. A guy with just a feeler gauge and torque wrench isn't going to be able to fix much on it. Car engines are new technology and bad example of old tech.
I love my Prius. Check out how the transmission works.
The truth shall set you free!
" Or perhaps one could find a job that does not require work, and therefore come to love it ;-)"
Obviously not porn star.
A Ph.D. should only be given to a person who's desire in life is to use his gifts and education to change and make the world a better place. This type of person is not motivated by money or greed, but by the betterment of mankind and him/herself.
I say good riddance to the Ph.D. from the UK. He should never had earned a Ph.D. to begin with.
Formerly I was employed as a networks engineer and left that field at age 21 to pursue a career in audio engineering. At the time my salary was around $38k/year and I left knowing well that audio engineers generally do not have the as high of a pay scale as networks engineers do. My reasons were purely for satisfaction in life. The drudgery one has to put up with can only go on for so long and if you are someone who has any real balls I would think you would change your field to satisfy your conscience, as opposed to only your pocket book.
My father recently quit his job as a marketing manager at a large pharmecutical company he'd worked at for 20+ years. He has four kids (two curently in college, one graduated, and one in high school). He was 48 years old. My mother erans maybe 30k$/yr as a local journalist, but they provide us with health care. Also, he recently purchased some waterfront property with his future dream house on it.
He quit his job becuase he grew to hate it. Every second of it. By most peoples standards it was a great job: six weeks of paid vacation, great salary, bonuses, stock options, health care. Some travel, but not too much (He had already paid his dues). He considered his options for several years, but then on an impulse quit his job one day. He is now MUCH happier because of it. Now, he works at his other lifelong hobby. After being owning and fixing up old homes for 20+ years, he is ready to become a full time handyman. He went out and bought a brand new work van, got himself some business cards, and got to work. Most of his work came from people he worked with previously, who are all too busy to work on their own houses.
Interestingly, six months after he quit, an old workmate called him up, asking him to do some marketing consulting for three times what he normally charges as a handyman. He took the job. Why? so he could take a day off every week and go hiking, skiing, or snowboarding.
bottom line is : stop hating your job and do it.
-n
" Maybe the words are wrong, but the meaning is correct. "
In your opinion.
"here are more incompetent people in IT then in any other field that I know of. "
You don't know very many fields then.
"When the dot com boom hit everyone who knew how to operate word was suddenly drafted into IT."
A lie repeated is still a lie.
"Now that the dot bomb hit they are all complaining about not having a job that they shouldnt have had in the first place."(1)
And of course you're the best judge of whom is qualified, and who isn't.
"Maybe I'm an elitist, but I belive that one highly trained individual can do more and higher quality work then 5 half-trained mcse's............. (and yes, I am one of the highly trained competent people)"
But the problem is that you're not the one calling the shots. The people who dole out the jobs believe that cheaper is better. And courtesy of Globalization the It industry is being influxed with the one thing that the local "elite" can't excuse away (.bubble excuse #3).
A labour force of "one" highly trained, competent people who will work for less.
(1) The other lie we keep telling ourself. There is a large portion of the labour pool that the dot boom didn't even touch. but you look now and you see not only dot commers, but manufacturing, financial, and many other jobs. But let's keep on telling ourself lies, in order to delay facing the truth.
My formal education was in old IT and I worked part time in sales. After graduation I found I could earn more in sales and did until the dot explosion.
I left that arena in a indebted mess and went to a tax consultant to resolve my problems, found a growing field and a new career.
I actually feel as if I am helping people and make twice what I did in the dot com fever days.
I would never have looked twice at this career but really enjoy it.
Getting that behind-the-scenes look at the job I thought I wanted was SO valuable! Chefs work hard (12 hour days or more, 6 days a week) and don't get paid all that much (I guess there are exceptions) - it really gave me the chance to see how good I had it as a programmer and that's what I really loved to do - to solve puzzles and write the code to solve 'em. My urges to cook are satisfied by cooking at home on a hobbyist basis.
So that's what I would say ... do some research into what you're thinking of switching to on an extra-curricular basis. Don't leave your job until you're sure ... well, that is, if you have a job. There is some truth to the adage "the grass is greener on the other side of the pasture." You don't want to find out after switching sides that the side you were on was already pretty green.
I'd also recommend a good book: What Should I Do with My Life?: The True Story of People Who Answered the Ultimate Question, by Po Bronson ... we've talked about it before. I've read most (if not all -- I forget) of it. It doesn't answer your questions, but it does offer some insights into people who have done similar things.
I'm not sure what the secret to success is, but the secret to failure lies in trying to please everyone -Bill Cosby
I have been in the computer field since 1969. I have done just about every job there is to do in this field, from operation to network design, from coding RPG to designing document processing for state legislatures.
I had all this time to change careers but I was a whore to my profession ( I couldnt get away from the money).
Now, in my 50s I realize what I REALLY want to do with my life and it aint in IT!
Can I be retrained? Is there enough time? Will anyone hire a 60yearold novice in a new field?
Hint - if you hate your IT job and you are under 35, then bail now! Time will slowly catch up with you and you will be stuck in a lifeless job, in a lifeless company, doing lifeless work.
Get out now!!!!
I got into IT 20 years ago, back when a guy with some smarts and some good work habits could pick up K&R, learn it, and get a job. Having sampled something of the broader working work, I must say that I love IT. I'm with a small company where I get to code nearly all day long, there's minimal political bullshit, and the pay and bennies are excellent. Writing good code is so much more challenging and fun than cleaning toilets or digging graves, you have no idea!
In my best of all possible worlds, I would make my living as a musician. But that is not to be: lack of opportunity, and (to be truthful) lack of talent stand in the way. But for me, IT is a damn good second best. Take it from me, that greener grass you see out there probably is astroturf.
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I am on my second real career (nearly a dozen years in the first and 7 or so in this one). Prior to this I had several 'regular jobs' in retail. I've learned a lesson I recommend you all consider in evaluating these issues for yourself:
If you have a creative, meaningful, satisfying job you invest in, you will get *screwed over* by people who know your commitment to quality and mission will drive you to submit to abuse. You will be exploited. You will be consumed by bureaucracy. You will fall prey to career climbers who forgot the mission but still use it to justify their actions feathering their own beds. You'll be working 80 hours a week with a few other driven people while the people in charge go home every day at 4:55. Your dedication will be perceived as a threat and you will be marginalized. You'll watch the smart commited ones you are proud to work with give up and skate one by one as the going gets tougher and tougher. You will rearrange the deck chairs while the captain heads for the iceberg.
You have three choices:
- Compromise your ethics and get rich being part of the problem.
- Work for yourself.
- Work for the money, and not in quest of riches, just enough to get by and save methodically to retire and provide for your family. Get your humanity on the weekends.
The first requires an incredible amount of luck to work. More likely than not, you'll get cocky and overextend yourself. If it does work, you'll have no soul.
The second also requires an incredible amount of luck. If you pull it off, you'll be working your butt off but you will die proud.
The third is 'the easy way' and after two careers and 20+ years working it's the way I recommend. I wish I'd been smart enough not to fall for the romance of doing what I believe in.
Twice.
What a fool I was.
You have indeed been indoctrinated well. Just like the teenage kamikaze pilots WW2 and the suicide bombers of Islam, it goes to show you that cultural indoctrination can make humans do things that are clearly against their best interests. And all for the improved social status for the human in question....love your job, indeed!
How about we all cooperate to build adequate shelter and food supply for all Americans/Canadians/whatever, and we can then spend the vast majority of our time pursuing our own interests? Too idealistic for you? No way for you to gain improved social status? Aw, never mind....
eat shiat and bark at the moon
At the end of day , what really matters are
Food , clothing , shelter , sex and love and satisfaction in our work and duty.For some spiritual exploration too.
There is so much nature has offered that we fail to observe in our mundane life.So much exciting discoveries / inventions we could do cheaply
If we only we spend more time enjoying things we got , than going for new things always , we could be relatively happier i beleieve.
So Interest and passion in work is mental make up.
if need be , lets switch careers
Hello , this is my way.
Which way is yours ?
btw there is no right way
...and not redundant?
I've already made one career change and getting ready to make a job change (hopefully!). I think it was probably one of the best things that happened to me. What really matters is finding something you really like to do. There will always be those small percentage of people though that will never be satisfied with their career and be in a perpetual search for a new job.
There's no shame in being a pariah. -Marge Simpson
This probably sounds abit awkward. I work in the IT field, and I am praying working conditions continue to get worse.
Not because I want my job to be more difficult, but because I feel there are alot of people who are just hogging up good IT positions because it pays the bill. They have no motivation, no desire. They do their job half assed, but they are still there because the have mastered the art of beating the system. This include blue and white collar employees, who need to be replaced by true IT folks many of which are unemployed.
Sure, how the engine is _managed_ changes a lot. How a reciprocating internal combustion engine _works_ will NEVER change. It's been the same, for the most part, since the damn thing was invented. It'll be the same until battery tech evolves to the point where we can all drive electric vehicles. _Not_any_time_soon_.
Your car is a hybrid, so to quote you: "A bad example."
Technically it has a starter, the electric motor. That's all a starter is, BTW. ICE's don't start spinning by magik. Your cam is also not completely under computer control, it's still spinning off the timing belt/chain, and AFAIK only the phasing is controlled by a computer. Oh, and technically, it has an alternator also; the electric motor under regenerative braking. (I'm pretty sure..) Where do you think your car gets the juice to fire the plugs? Run all those electric non-belt driven accessories you're bragging about? The radio? The head lights? Recharging the batteries? The electric power steering pump? (It _has_ a pump, just not belt driven, line pressure doesn't come from nowhere either)
So while a guy with "just a torque wrench and a feeler gauge" won't be able to fix _everything_..you still have pistons, a crankshaft, connecting rods, a cylinder head, valves, valve springs, valve seals, piston rings, cam gears, camshafts, get the picture?
And to be pedantic, it's "alternator".
Read two books: "Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn, and "The Un-Jobbing Manifesto" (I think that's the title, can't remember the author - google on "unjobbing").
I can think of a few reasons for entertaining a career change. The top of the list, IMHO, would be being involuntarily lesuired. Something I recently experienced.
I spent a lot of money getting a graduate degree in my field from a top school. No, to be honest, it was the top school for my niche industry. I finished my degree a few years ago and landed myself a sweet job doing what I schooled for and making a very decent living. I thought I was set. Perhaps I was too optimistic. Several months ago I found I was summoned into the conference room one Friday afternoon and informed that the company couldn't afford my position anymore and I was being let go.
Aside from the usual progression of emotions for such a situation, the last six months of my newfound "freedom" have been spent figuring out how to make every dollar stretch and how top find new employment. That new employment, I hoped, would be in my field and at a similar salary to that which I had. I've discovered that that is prolly not going to happen. So what now? COntemplation of a new completely different job, that's what.
While I still hope out hope for landing the position I'd prefer at this point (affording the opportunity to pay off my debt and send my wife to grad school so she can move into a new career path as orignially planned before my forced extended vacation without pay) I am considering a drastic change. Heck, maybe it'll even mean more in terms of salary.
So now that I've rambled and ranted about my situation--I thank you for the couch time--my point is that a good reason to consider a job change as suggested in the article is being forced to change your job because you've been downsized.
'nuff said
Why go through life hating what I do when I can live comfortibly (sic?) and enjoy it? He obviously didn't hate his job that much. Me, if you offered me the same deal, I wouldn't do it. Why? I'd have plenty of money, but no time to enjoy it. Looks like your father found a way to do both. I've done the same.
Bottom line: Do what feels right.
I sing the doggie electric!
Ah, the famous 'dead money argument'
/ALL/ depends on circumstances. I know some very succesful people who are serious sharemarket investors and many of them rent, on the basis that they don't understand the housing market, so why risk their capital there?
Can you explain why paying a landlord for the use of his asset (a house) is evil and stupid, whereas paying a bank for the use of their asset (a lump of capital) is clever and mature?
It
Don't worry about coding - it is a poor man's job (mainly India)
Go and do an MSc in human resources and set up a company to outsource jobs US to India...you'll make a packet, retire early and can pay for a very expensive plumber.
Back in November of 2001 I was laid off from the cybercenter hosting division of a western U.S. telecommunications company. Since the economy was going into the tank due to 9/11, I started my own business refurbishing IBM RS/6000s and selling them on eBay.
In the 2+ years since I was laid off, I've had the best time of my life. I like the challenge of running my own business and finding those great buys that end up making a significant profit when I resell it. (Example: purchased a system management module for an IBM router for $10.00 and sold it for $600.00).
Don't get me wrong; I've also tried finding a new job and had a few temporary contracts. Most recently, I was hired onto a government contract for $60K/year after being told what a great job this was and they really needed a Unix guru. I quit after 2 months because it was utterly BORING; the highlight of my week was running antivirus scans on Sun servers.
Aside from being in control of my time and making more money by selling more boxen, my boss and I get along quite well. He may be an @$$hole, but he's MY kind of @$$hole. I've also learned more about myself and sharpened my interpersonal skills by running a business.
If you're in a boring / dead-end / abusive job, find something you love and do it instead. The stress that you go through by hating the job you currently have is far worse than the stress you have when you do something you love. No amount of money is sufficient when the job negatively affects your attitude, personal relationships, and your health.
If "disco" means "I learn" in Latin, does "discothèque" mean "I learn technology"?
Well I for one went from working on big name console video games, where I was someone's bitch on the same damn project for 2 years straight, working like a dog only to end up being downsized (repeat again at next company, and then again)... ...to working for myself running/building up my own business making games in Flash. Yeah, it's way less cool to be working with Flash than with the latest video games console, and people don't quite envy my job as much, but damn it's satisfying to be my own boss and MAKE MORE MONEY AT IT than I did slaving away for a game development house...
So what's the lesson learned? When you're young, work the job you like. You have your entire life to work jobs you hate and once you get that house, new car, wife, and children it will be tougher to leave a bad job if it pays well. When you're young and basically all you have in your life it work, make that work as enjoyable as possible. Plan for the future, but don't let that possible future ruin your present.
"Oh dear, she's stuck in an infinite loop and he's an idiot" -Prof. Farnsworth (Futurama)
As Red Foreman says, "Work is not fun. Work is work. Work is about seeing how much crap you can take from the boss man, and then taking some more."
I like to write code. I like to solve problems. Frequently, a software engineer's job requires doing a lot of other things. You may have to work with a language that you think isn't the best for the job. You may have to create UML design diagrams that feel like a waste of time and convey little actual meaning. You may have to write test plans. In general, your boss will ask you to do things that you think are stupid, but you have to do them anyway.
I have found that job satisfaction is greatly related to how well you like your boss, your co-workers, and the general environment of your company. Freedom to do what you think is best is needed for job satisfaction.
I also want to make pretty good money. On salary surveys the money rankings usually go something like:
1) doctor
2) lawyer
3) engineer, software development
4) everything else pays less.
3) Seems to fit my personality.
1) Too many years in school without getting paid.
2) Just not sure that I would like being a lawyer.
So that is it for me. If I can't continue to make money doing software development, then I am just not sure what I'll do. Lawyer maybe.
As for doing what you love and you'll never work a day in your life. I love sitting by the pool on an island drinking a Corona. I don't know how to get paid doing that. I love snow skiing, but I am not good enough to get endorsements. And the people that get paid to ski frequently don't like to practice, because they don't get to ski the way they want, where they want. It is practice, not fun.
"It would be sad if eventually the ability to carry cinder blocks and boards around was more valuable than the ability to code, etc. "
WTF? Is your trade so much more important to the world the building a house? Where do you get off saying it would be sad if contruction type work was more valuable then code work?
How many times has a geek been called at home at 3AM in the morning because the printer wont print?
How many times does a plumber get called by a geek who cant fix his water heater at 3am?
What you do is not more or less important then what someone else does. They are all things that must be done.
Me..I was layed off almost a year ago and I dont EVER plan to work again. I now make my living buying houses and fixing them up. I make more then I did as an engineer. I will never miss my kids games or birthdays. And i get to retire in 10 years.
I was an accountant, mid-level management in a moderate size company ($50-60 million sales, several hundred employees). I didn't want to get to the end of my life and think "why the heck did I spend my whole life doing something that I don't enjoy".
I've always enjoyed technical things, but had a business degree. I went back to school for a while and was planning to get an EE or maybe MS in computer engineering. However, with a house and family that would be a very long hard road. Wound up getting a couple of certs, taking what I could find on a help desk.
Soon I got a job in a datacenter, tending backups, monitoring systems, etc. Gradually, I got to do more interesting stuff. After about a year and a half I got a better offer elsewhere. I actually left, but my previous employer countered with a better offer to be a Sys Admin/DBA on several large Unix boxes running Enterprise Apps.
I'm making almost what I made in accounting after 2-1/2 years in the field. Yes, I know that it's no longer the hot field. Sure, I wish it was--but I was in the Oil Industry when it went in the tank, so I already knew that industries have ups and downs.
I got in this because I love it--not every aspect of my job, but I love computers and technology. My house always has 4-5 computers in it, I run servers at home, play with programming, etc. I didn't get into this field because "it's a hot field, you'll make a lot", but rather because it was a field where they would pay me to do what I would do for free.
So, my vote is with the "find something you love to do" school.
payday is friday
This is very true. You don't want to see how pear-shaped a society gets with no water, electricity and building.
" - use as many times as you wish.
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
This may not seem like much to you highly paid folks but I'm moving from $32,260 a year to $35,000 immediately and was informed that if I perform as expected (not hard) I will be making $40,000 in 90 days' time. I am EXTREMELY happy that my goal of the past 5 years has been achieved! I have always wanted to be in a position such as this and it's finally been realized.
My current (soon to be previous) job includes driving as far as 50 miles to customer sites to wrangle with computer problems and then come back to take abuse from my boss and deal with the stupid management policies. Want to know the newest mandate? If you don't know you have warranty (AppleCare!) we don't tell you and charge you accordingly. Shit like that makes me ill. I can't believe that such business practices are actually enforced. I was willing to take a pay cut to get out of this hellish job but fortunately I will be getting a dramatic increase.
I think I'm doing well, always taking a pay increase in each subsequent job and finally reaching my goal of being in charge of things! Being 28 years old and having your own office, good pay and a job that you're looking forward to is the best achievement ever!
Reviews with a twist! http://www.sardonicbastard.com
It's kind of funny how big is the gap between american standars and those in the third world.
For example, in my country, if you can:
-Work on a PhD degree
-Travel every summer to exotic places
-Afford to live alone in a nice apartment with an office
-Have a desktop AND a laptop computer
like you do, you live WAY ABOVE the national poverty line.
I did this.
:)
I ditched my 6 digit pay figure, and took a 80% paycut to become a teacher. Granted, while it was at an all girls private catholic high school (yes, it was as alarming as it sounded) - I had a lot more fun, and felt more productive than I did as a ceramic engineer.
[Note here that my friends used to call me at school and leave me voice mails/emails of the Police song "Don't Stand So Close to Me" as a daily basis to remind me of the minefield that I had gotten myself into - especially since I was 1 of 2 members of staff that was male!]
Here were my problems: Having been spoiled as a director/high level management - it took quite some doing to unspoil me. Consequently, I went broke that first year (between having bought a house, and trying to make payments with a significantly decreased income scale, and also getting sick in the process), and ended up going back to engineering as a consultant to make enough money so that I can go back into teaching. Also, working in a education environment is almost like working for a large financial house: Changes come slow and amidst copious amounts of red tape.
Strange, huh?
But whats even more rewarding for me, is that I also coach high school level Track and Field. And while my pay there technically consitutes as negative dollars - I feel needed, wanted and useful - which is a hell of a lot more than I can say about my engineering gig.
So yes, I feel happy teaching Chem and Fyzix (TM), and yes, I'm making oodles less money. BUT, I'm not waking up and questioning myself about why I'm doing what I'm doing - *AND* I look forward to each day's interaction with students, and seeing how else I can explain/demonstrate something to get them to understand it , and watch the proverbial 'lightbulb go ding!'
I did just this. I worked as a contract employee in the IT field, and hated it. I was salary, and voluntarily put in 16 hour days, plus 8 on sunday....Then the manager got angry with me because I wouldn't come in on saturday (only day I get to spend wth my son - stupid visitation). "This is your job we're talking about. Family can wait," She said. She's in the process of getting a divorce right now, I hear....
That and the job wasn't satisfying at all. The project I was working on had already eaten six teams of developers, none of them really and truly solving the problem.
The conditions were horrible - I worked in a storage room that contained a huge pile of financial records that all smelled of mildew. I had accountants running in and out all day. And the ballast in the fluorescent light overhead was bad so the light flickered.
So when they said they weren't going to renew my contract a slow smile crept over my face, and it was all I could do to keep from running from the office in complete glee.
Sure I miss the money. But I damn sure don't miss the ulcer, the worry, the migraines, the lack of sleep and the problems.
Now I own a video store. And y'know - Second Hand Lions was a damn good movie. If you're looking for something the whole family can enjoy, that's a good pick. And for an extra dollar, you can keep it another day.
And I don't even miss the "1337N355" of it all, because I'm right here, on my "development platform" whipping up a new software suite to handle the business of renting videos.
And now I don't have someone dangling a "permanent position" over my head.
"No offense, dude, but you can't offshore auto mechanic jobs, and people will ALWAYS needs their cars fixed. "
True, however there's two forces at work here that can have an impact on wages here in the US. One is technology. It can reduce the number of people required to do a job (RFID checkout lines. Eliminate cashiers). Two while we apparently aren't as mobile as we would like, the rest of the world is. Immigrants, both legal and illegal willing to work for less than say the US mechanic, or plumber, sometimes under the table.
What makes you think he won't make the world a better place as a plumber? He may very well become the best damned plumber in England!
Perhaps now he'll have more free time, and raise a family that he otherwise wouldn't have -- or now that he has more income, perhaps he can better pay for his children's needs, or donate to his favorite charity, or drink more of his favorite beer.
I am getting to hate cars. I learned to drive, literally, on a race track, when I was 15. I like driving. I was *this* close to going professional, but then wound up going to college to be a rocket scientist... switched out of AAE to CS though.
Anyway, sure, the Prius is nifty and all, good gas mileage and emissions. But I like my clutch. CVT sounds nasty. Where's the enjoyment in driving that on a twisty road? I don't want my car to be some damn utilitarian people-mover. I like shifting, damn it. I like being able to tear down my transmission to a bare case in 10 minutes. I like being able to drop the engine in my garage, and rebuild it myself relatively easily (which, BTW, requires some precise micrometers... an engine that revs to 8500 rpm has tight tolerances). I *hate* paying mechanics. I don't trust the bastards.
Nowadays, with OBD-II, and soon OBD-III, it is getting harder and harder to work on the car yourself. That damn Prius is moving toward the complete electro-mechanical black box. Speaking of which, I read today about a concept car from Volvo (Ford) that has a sealed hood. Sealed. You have to go to the dealer to get access to the drivetrain. Sick sick sick. One of the criteria by which I judge a car is how easy it is to change the oil filter. A car I can't maintain and work on myself? I rue the day.
Larry
i wish i were so smart. i'll become the best plumber ever..
So, I said fuck it. I don't need to get rich, and I have skills in other fields that are far more amusing. Here is something I sent to someone else the other day:
"I have abandoned software, at least for the nonce.
I am now the service manager for Capitol Powersports in Folsom, Ca. (http://www.capitolpowersports.com) and the Chief Instructor of the new racer schools with Keigwins @ The Track (http://keigwin.com), the largest motorcycle trackday provider in Northern California.
My new boss is an ex-Microsoftie. :)"
I've been roadracing motorcycles since 2000, and I figured do what you love...
It should make for an interesting resume.
Come on, man, use Java, it is automated there! ;-)
Tigers respect lions, elephants and hippos. Maggots respect no one. (C) S. Dovlatov
I've taken a long hard look at myself in the last 3 years (not that I don't work all this time, but the jobs are short and sporry in the last 2.5 years).
This free time of mine was used not only to waste it in the net, but to work on my personality, motivations et al. Using the methods provided by spiritual disciplines (qigong, internal martial arts et la) I transform an arrogant, mental and computer-chained geek who had lost his motivation into a human - healthy, relaxed, sassy, strong and motivated as well as diversified in terms of knowledge and interests.
A couple more steps, and I'll get rid of my Internet addiction (it will go away the way the addiction to computer games went) and a couple other limitations.
Then I'll be able to return to the field with the new desire to work and ACHIEVE.
Tigers respect lions, elephants and hippos. Maggots respect no one. (C) S. Dovlatov
I'm 26, working 60 hours a week as an IT consultant and I hate both my life & my job. The whole point of my job is to save enough money to open a little donut shop in Haarlem in Noord Holland. I plan to retire on my 35th birthday, move away from my beloved US and adopt Holland as a new home country.
I'm willing to suffer momentarily for the possibility of early retirement in my donut shop by the sea sipping Vodka and munching Stroopwafel. I _love_ programming, but I'd rather be working on interesting open source projects than crafting another f-ed up J2EE billing application.
If I die before then..... Oh well, at least I tried.
Patience. Young grasshopper.
See headline.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
How's that in the US?
Here in Holland, a PhD-studentship is a normal job, and not so much "student"-like, as portrayed in Piled Higher and Deeper.
First-year students make about EUR 23500,- a year, and that goes up to about EUR 28500,- in the fourth year. When viewing this numbers, do take into account that the price-level in Holland (and the EU as a whole) is lower than in the US.
E.g.: as a M.Sc., you can expect a starting salary of about EUR 25000-27500,- a year. If you're in engineering, that is.
Support a Europe-related section on Slashdot!
First, talk to musicians and ask them if they'd do anything differently. I have, and I've heard members of big-city symphonies talk of how the amount of practice and effort needed erodes their ability to 'enjoy' their favorite music. They make good money, at least. Talking to bar bands and others, the lifestyle gets old and the tough choices never get easier (family vs. career, commercialism vs. artistic purity, etc). On the other hand, people who love music but have a day job doing something else seem to retain that deep love for it.
Second, there's the financial side. Money matters. If not to you, then to the people who'll be collecting your rent and selling you stuff.
Rather than dwelling on satisfaction only, find balance. You mentioned plumbing: If you're ok with the technical challenges and don't mind the dirt, plumbing is good work with steady demand and strong customer incentives to speak respectfully to you. You can work long hours and REALLY make bank (I supervised one union crew where the pipefitters were getting 5x their $40/hour pay by Sunday night), or just build a strong clientele and work 9-5 with a vicious additional fee to minimize off-hours calls. Likewise, there are profitable careers that are fairly painless, no matter what your talents or inclination. I'm lucky because most of the stuff I enjoy pays well. Had I not honed in on computer work, I could have stuck with engineering, or architecture. I'd even considered being a lawyer (but hated the idea of undergoing surgery to have my conscience removed, so no go there...). Still, the sheer joy I've felt during college philosophy lectures, or literature classes could have been a compelling thing if I ignored the whole MONEY thing. Instead, I just tell myself I might swerve more toward something loveable and low-paying once I get enough invested to guarantee a cushy retirement.
There are a zillion other ways that balancing money and satisfaction seems wisest: You can work your day job and subsidize artistic urges. My wife paid for her own bronze castings for her sculpture. Without our income level, that might be beyond her ability to spend. Strangely, being an executive AND an artist seems to give her double-plus charisma: she gets bonus points at work by people that want to pal up to an artist, and her artwork sells better because these successful executives buy & display pieces. Wierd, huh? As for me, my job's projects have peaks and lulls, and the lulls let me take several hours off midday to help at my kids' school, go fishing, or whatever. Good pay, an ok job, and flexibility are a great balance, in my book. Further, our jobs' higher pay lets us travel, invest more, and indulge on things we consider important.
Last of all, I watched my dad work for years in the public sector. Slaved away for so-so pay. Projects he spearheaded are named after people that donated volunteer effort or money to support these projects. None are named after him. All the work, none of the glory. It's a little thing, but it still matters. Had he picked a more lucrative career that he liked, then been a dedicated supporter of his favorite cause, he'd have gotten more credit.
So, don't choose between money and something you LOVE. It's not black and white. Go grey. If possible, pick a choice that's more lucrative, so long as you merely LIKE it. Nothing slaps the grin back on your face after a long week like a huge paycheck, or some gift to yourself like courtside Lakers tickets. And nothing saps the grin away faster than learning the low-pay job you hoped to love isn't what you expected.
I love my job (I am a university researcher in computer science). I left my previous job as a commercial researcher, which I also liked and with a 30% higher salary and great benefits, purely for job satisfaction. The problem is that if I lose this job, I won't be able to find another research job in the neighborhood, and at the moment moving is impossible for me.
Considering this, I thought that, if I indeed lose my job, the best move would be to become either a plumber or an electrician. These people make serious money and are always in demand. And the best part is, it is a nine-to-five job (contrary to my current work which is more of a nine-to-nine job). When you get home, you wash up and have the rest of the evening all for yourself. I can play with computers as a hobby!
Last I heard, if the university offered him a permanent job as a scientist he'd take it. But the best thier HR department could offer was some plumbing work when he qualified.
Ian
I have something I want to do in mind (security research, new frontier stuff, I've made some publications already), so if someone were to offer me a job in that area, I wouldn't think twice.
It boils down to "do I want to do what I'm doing currently?". I know few people who left a job they enjoyed. I know tons of people who would jump at the very first chance they get.
The specific elements differ. Your immediate surrounding (co-workers and the boss) are major points, as is the actual job itself.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
I plan on retiring by becoming a school teacher sometime between the ages of 45 and 55. I'd look for being a High School level Math teacher or an instructor at a local community college. If I had plenty of money and time, I'd go back to college and study biochem, nano-tech, materials science, or whatever else interested me... writing software to solve those problems that I took an intrest in. If you want me to write a solution to a problem that doesn't intrest me... well... then... you'd better pay me.
[signature]
I bailed out of a "mo - bi" PhD as an ABD and it wasn't about the money. Working long hours with dangerous chemicals in ventilation/filtration hoods and lab coats is not easier than installing toilets and repairing leaking pipes. Maybe it was just a quality of life decision. I became a web developer during the golden years and I've never looked back. I just hope 20 years from now that nitrosoquanidine doesn't come back to haunt me (ie cancer). I don't see how anyone could stay in that career for long except for egomaniacs with indentured servants (graduate students) do the heavy lifting.
You were right, though.
Maybe this individual is changing careers because he doesn't want to end up like Dr. David Kelley.
Perhaps after seeing where his profession is going in terms of biological warfare, population/crowd control and an assortment of military-industrial "dual-use" applications, he simply wants to live a long healthy life and not end up being "suicided".
Haven't heard of any plumbers dying under mysterious circumstances.
http://www.devvy.com/micro_20020104.html
http://www.devvy.com/wiley_20020120.html
I hope you die tomorrow...
I make $85K a year as a developer.
I have a downtown condo, a hot girlfriend, and I travel to Europe twice a year.
Money is great. I would kill myself if I were a student again.
Being broke is ok when everyone your age is broke.
When you're 26, you gotta make money or else have no friends except the lazy starving artist type.
Which all they would do is:
resent you
take advantage of you because you have all the money.
Most people in this thread have expressed the sentiment that a change can be good in a persons' life. I am an example. I retrained after getting a degree in Marketing. It took two years of hunting and some unemployment (plus a stint as tech support, ugh) to get my current position.
The payoff is in an easier commute, better working environment, doing what I love and even a little more.
Now if I could just translate this into that $100 an hour work for myself gig, then the world would be perfect.
After working as a SysAdmin and then Software Engineer through the dot-com boom ... I got burned out, and was generally just not happy. It got to the point where I didn't even LIKE writing code.
:) I even enjoy wiriting code again, as a hobby.
... but in the last few years I figured out there's SO much more to life than that.
In Nov of '00 I woke up one morning and wrote my letter of resignation. I sold my house, moved to an area with a low cost of living, and now am a motorcycle mechanic.
I love my job, and actually like going to work in the morning. I also have time to actually enjoy life, instead of working all the time. Oh, and nobody pages you at 3am because they need an oil change
I won't get rich doing this, nor will I ever have stock options again
- Roach
. (Don't even bother, that was intentional to get you're hopes up.)
.
P.S. Hah! So was that. :-)
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
I've been working the last 14 years as an Instrument Fitter. When I started it was a wonderful field, when I started it was the ultimate in geek trade jobs, control systems, automation, process control and messing about with fibre in heavy industry (it's only become standard IT fare in the last 2 years in HI).
But then, change of management and lo, I start changing lightbulbs because as an Instrument Fitter we had to have an electrical license. Then work required a gas fitting license and guess what? No pay rise.
Oh, we now what you to hold a radiation source maintenance license and no pay rise. My answer, hmm, yes, I'll take that IT job you offered for less money 2 years back.
Lo and behold they opened an IT job and I was the only applicant so I feigned disenchantment and I got the job with a pay rise, increase in super annuation and an extra weeks leave.
The only things trades are good for are getting cheap tools for home.
"I propose we leave math to the machines and go play outside" -- Calvin
Well, I feel your pain. Why is why I have a 04 Prius for riding in the HOV lanes (that my wife drives) and a Mustang for me.
:)
Too bad I know squat about how the innards work so far... no time to monkey with it yet, but someday...
I was making $300K a year when I had a blow-up with my employer and decided to check out. Now I work at university where I make $80K - after ten years of raises. But I walk to work, spend a lot of time in the gym, work with fascinating professors creating online programs for classes and distance learning, and my back problems are ten years behind me along with about 20 pounds. I remember my second year here I was walking my third child to the bus to go to third grade, and I wondered, what were the other two like at this age?
My only disappointment is that I hoped to find people with higher values as well as higher intellects, but instead found that the fewer the scraps, the harder the dogs fight, no matter how smart they are.
I speak as someone who has gone through 3 or 4 major career transitions to date, and will probably do a few more. A couple of those were even in the IT world. (Psst, don't tell anyone, but I've held jobs as a Network Architect, System Architect, FORTRAN(EEK!)/C/C++/Java programmer (by dates), Software Architect, build engineer (eek!), installer writer (blah!), Configuration manager, Project/Program Manager, Contract Manager, and the list goes on.
I've worked for 6 different companies over the past 15 or so years. The key is what you emphasize, and how you do it. After the first VB job, you should have minimized it's impact on your resume by emphasizing what you wanted to do, even though it was your primary function. Failure to do this evidently has led you into more VB jobs (which you apparently despise) and this has reinforced what you're currently "stuck" doing. If you can get yourself into more than a single simultaneous task, then you have more leeway in picking your own assignments. i.e., Being a tech lead or project manager, and handling that task extremely well will open new doors into other projects, where the main component won't be VB. Getting yourself into that project may open a door into doing some minor task in the area you want. And so on. Right now, I'm looking at moving into a software architect position with a C#/.NET company, neither of which I have extensive experience with, but my strong technical background makes me a good candidate for the position. FYI - currently, I'm a java programmer/architect.
This is posted anonymously because of content.
Last fall I quit a job at a huge corporate monolith to work for a really small company; I took a pay cut to do it.
The small company is also within walking distance of my house, which is a great perk.
I went from being a generic "Technical Writer 4" to being "Documentation Overlord". It's more work, but it's also more freedom, and I like knowing (and recognizing) everyone in the company.
YMMV.
- chrish
I am now in a position where I have to choose between a stable job doing work that I feel is just plain brain numbing, and a job that is much less secure (highly possible that I will be laid off within a year) doing the type of work that I want to do. My wife and I are expecting our first child by the end of the year, so we will be cut down to one source of income...so the job security thing is kind of important. However, if I'm not working on the stuff that I find interesting, my skills in that area will begin to deteriorate and I run the risk of not being able to do that type of work for the rest of my career. Can anybody offer my any advice?
Mine says 35 hours a week.
And that is what my employer gets.
If more people were more serious about the contracts they are signing they would no be thorn by giving priority to work or family.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I'm currently a Linux Systems Adminisrator with a 2yr degree + a cert with 8-9 years IT experience who makes an upper-mid 5 figure US$ income. I have a friend who's a successful fleet car sales manager for a popular Toyota dealer who makes $250k+ US easily, but busts her rear with long hours and little vacation or weekends to do so. She's asked me multiple times to come join her team since I seem to be a walking trivia book of car knowledge, especially with Toyota's hybrid line.
Pros: Money. Her laziest guy brings in over $90k US/yr. Others average 120-150k/yr easy.
Selling a product I like and believe in.
Products sell themselves.
Consume (user) ignorance is exploitable instead of a frustration.
Did I mention the money?
Cons: I've never done sales before.
Long Hours
No weekends
Giving up marriage to the penguin.
Risk falling behind in tech skills due to lessened exposure
Honestly, I enjoy - in some sick twisted way - being a sysadmin. Perhaps when I hit my next mid-life crisis, or get really money hungry, or the IT market falls dead, I'll consider the change. At least it's an option.
$ man woman *
-bash:
Seriously though, it was a very pleasant experience : 2 years of absolute slacking, doing only what I wanted on the money I had made during the bubble, recovering from 5 years of uninterrupted software development death marches that had left me kind of sick, and reflecting on all the mistakes I will never make in the future, either as an employee or as an entrepreneur.
And what do you do now?
Downmodding is the refuge of the weak. Don't downmod, make a better argument!
If anyone wants to hire me in the geographic area I live in, of if they're planning to change jobs and they'll let me know so I can put in an app for sysadmin or developer, I'll be there with bells on, to change my job from 'no longer in the workforce" to "employed".
Hell, if they want to hire my SO and me to go to the Moon or Mars, we're *there*.
mark
Law school starts in September
between the greater and lesser infinities sleep the dreams undreamt
Both times I changed careers, I made LESS money (at least initially). But I was tired of all the corporate games in the Fortune 500 company I was in the first time, and I was tired of the work environment the second time. I spent 13 years in my first career, 9 years in my second, and I'm now 5 years into my 3rd career (a computer programmer now). I'd consider changing careers again, as I've put in far more hours at this job than I ever did in my previous two careers, and it's easy to get burnt out. But I'm also kind of spoiled by the kind of income I get now too :)
Of course, it is too late in this thread. Slashdot moves on if your post doesnt arrive within an hour of the article posting.
I was a PHB (pointy haired boss) in a health care company, and I became a programmer again at another company, taking a pay cut in the process of 12%.
The new hair cut, however looks great, feels great and didn't even hurt, even tho the pay cut did! I'd would definitely do it again, even given the risk of getting outsourced.
I supervised other programmers, business analysts, network/hardware folks, it wasn't my staff it was the office politics and all *SS HOL** in upper management who think because they have read several issues of PC magazine, they know all about computers and software.
Don't even think of posting that you think I wasn't good at my PHB job, I was. I did it for 10+ years, and many of my former staff have proceeded or are following me to my new employer.
Doing what you love is MUCH MUCH better than doing what you don't love.
This is why auto mechanics will always have work. Same with plumbers, electricians, and hairdressers (now *there's* a lucrative career).
Of course, most auto mechanics these days are recent immigrants, willing to work for a lot less than the average middle-class-or-better white boy...
pwned. Hard. I will sleep well this evening.
At $5.15 hour, working a full 40 hour week, you'll score $206 a week. That's $824 every 4 weeks. Correcting to a 30 day month average, that's actually $886 a month. $10,712 a year.
As for making _only_ minimum wage, that's for the market to decide. When I worked at McDonald's over 8 years ago, I was hired part time at over SEVEN dollars an hour.
Minimum wage shouldn't be a 'nice' income. It's the bottom of the barrel. Which would you prefer, $5 an hour, or a minimum wage of $6 and you're unemployed?
I don't read AC A human right
Ya know, if you're rich (like, compared to most of the world, most North Americans & Euros are), you can afford to cut your income radically, and still afford a satisfying life.
Some of us do both - keep the day jobs (once we've gotten good enough at it to adapt it to us, instead of vice versa), and find a satisfying hobby. AMBULANCE GIRL is the true-life story of a gal whose books and radio reviews I've enjoyed for years (Jan Stern - yea, ROADFOOD co-author and SPENDID TABLE commentator).
At age 50, she becomes a volunteer EMT, and finds a new perspective on life, which solves her major depression.
Me, I did kinda the same thing by throwing over my old hobbies, and training up for CERT and Red Cross Disaster Volunteer work, getting a ham radio license, and joining my local Amateur Radio Emergency Services group.
The idea of chucking the current 9-to-5 and becoming a 911 operator, or getting a master's in emergency services, has appeal, but the crazy hours I would have to work to change fields is offputting, much more so than the probably 40% salary cut. So, I just have a Hobby, which is *much* more rewarding than golf.
There is nothing wrong with yr Internet. Do not attempt to adjust the picture. We are controlling the transmission - NSA
What's bullshit? These guys have made a decision and discussed their reasoning.
Do I believe them? On balance, yes. I follow their financial reasoning when buying shares (not surprisingly they get the cream first). Year on year profits for the past five years are about 12% compounded - a margin loan is 8% - you do the math. I did buy my own house for cash, as it happens. That way I could use it as visible security for my (large) margin loan, the interest on which is tax deductible, unlike a mortgage in this jurisdiction.
In fact on rereading your post I don't even understand what you are arguing about. I think we actually agree.
Wow, I got modded as Flamebait? That speaks volumes all by itself for the respect due to Ph.D. A Ph.D. should be a person's dream, not just a job. Achieving a dream has no limitations.
How incredibly unfortunate. My statement stands.
You can apply too, they take civilians:
h tml
http://www.usarec.army.mil/hq/warrant/WOcivilian.
there are 2 kinds of people. those who divide people into 2 kinds, and those who don't.
I guess the point I was making is the piston and crankshaft part of the engine hasn't changed much. However the high failure parts of a car have changed greatly. How often do you replace a starter, alternatior, power steering hoses, brake shoes/pads, etc., to how often you replace the rings and valve guides?
You are correct in stating the electric motor acts as the starter and alternator. However this is all high voltage stuff. To run the low voltage stuff, a DC-DC converter is used, not an altinator. This keeps the lights from dimming when the engine cycles off. It also eliminates the need for a large 12 Volt battery. The 12 volt battery is not used to crank the engine.
By going this rate, we have eliminated two high maitnance/failure items, the starter and altinator. Both seem to have high failures of mechanical parts. Brushes and that bendix thing on the starter. The motor/generators in the Prius are brushless, permanant magnet, AC, and water cooled. I guess the only high failure item might be the electric water pump.
Power steering is linear electric motor instead of the pump, hose, leak prone assembly.
Brakes are regenerative as well as traditional disk, so even they are much lower maitenance.
The transmission has something like 13 moving parts total unlike a traditional transmission. None of the transmission parts are friction parts such as clutches and bands. It's just gears and nothing engages or disengages except the park pawl.
What are the major maitenance items on your car? Rings? Or brakes, starters, altenators, hoses, pumps, batteries, etc.
I think they have gone a long ways to make it a low failure rate car.
The truth shall set you free!
Good points.
:)
;)
The AC motor in the Prius is water cooled?? Wow. From what I recall of my electric vehicle research the major heat producer was the controller box, (I forget the name of it) and the DC-DC converter, not the motor itself..maybe Toyota knows something the rest of us hobbyists don't.
A linear motor for the steering rack eh? Now that's spiffy.
The main point I was trying to make is that your average grease monkey won't be out of a job any time soon. Sure, they may have to learn some new skills, but your average dealership mechanic already has quite a few electrical and computer type skills as it is. Perhaps I choose bad parts as examples. Better examples might be your suspension and drive-train parts, which all cars have, regardless of power train configuration. You'll still need a mechanic with spring compressors and the like to replace or grease/pack your worn out struts / shocks / balljoints / hubs / wheel bearings / cv-joints / etc..and I don't see those being replaced by non-wear-and-tear parts anytime soon either.
The valve guides should be adjusted before your alternator or any of your power steering hoses are replaced. Things like that aren't high failure, but they do need to be adjusted and such. (Which still takes a grease monkey to do) My car is 14 years old and I haven't had to replace any of the high failure parts aside from pad/shoes, thermostat, 2 radiator hoses, and spark plugs. I'll replace the tranny before I replace my starter. It's all in how you treat your engine really. Most starter failures I've seen have been due to idiots trying too hard to start their car (running the starter for more than 10 seconds at a time), and breaking the teeth off of the gear that engages with the flywheel.
I agree we have gone a long way, but we have much longer to go before this is all common place. I for one love electric vehicles, and can't wait to have one. Having a motor that runs forever would be pretty bad ass, but I'm waiting until the battery tech is good enough where I can actually get some kind of *speed* out of the thing without lowering my range to 2 miles.
I think for the time being though, a hybrid approach is the best solution; but I have issues with the normal gasoline-electric hybrid approach...I think there are better setups we could be using. I'd like to see someone perfect the Tesla turbine, and have a steam generator in the trunk...only thing you need to fill up would be water, and perhaps some propane or something, unless the heater was electric..of course if the man would have perfected the wireless transmission of power, we wouldn't need batteries or generators..ahh what a dream that'd be.