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PC Magazine Reviews Firefox, Opera
prostoalex writes "PC Magazine reviews Mozilla Firefox 0.9.1 and Opera 7.51, noting: 'Security concerns aren't the only reason to seek an alternative [to Internet Explorer]. IE's slow rendering engine and dearth of privacy features may plant the thought in some iconoclastic minds that it may not be the best browser for everyone.' 4 stars for Firefox and 3.5 for Opera, so looks like a Firefox win, although the editors do point out FF's troubles with DHTML as well as Opera issues with JavaScript."
Mozilla rises from the dead (or at least a deep sleep) and goes mainstream rather quickly. Impressive :)
How many stars does IE rank agianst them?
It would be nice if they included that.
The preceding message was based on actual events. Only the names, locations and events have been changed.
...that I should stop running Internet Explorer using wine, and try Firefox?
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it dissolve.
Out of habit and ignorance, I have used IE for years. I think it is time to make the change to Firefox. Thanks for the article.
In my book gets 4.5 stars. But the java/javascript errors that come up constantly are a bitch and a half.
"IE's slow rendering engine " :(
Sad but true. The review page has been loading for almost a minute now
Mozilla, Opera and Firefox, from my unscientific perspective, seem to load web pages quicker than IE, but what really bothers me is how slow the mozilla opera and firefox load times are. I can either get to the web quickly with IE, or wait a while with firefox for a minute page load time diffrence.
Has anyone been tracking Firefox/Mozilla in the User-Agent stats for a large site to see if it is truly pulling browsershare from IE? The last mention we had from the Slashdot admins was that Slashdot was 90% Internet Explorer, is this on the decline? Are these stats publicly available?
If guns kill people, then CmdrTaco's keyboard misspells words.
CONS: Default installation doesn't include many functions; you have to download additional features via the Extensions Manager. Will not load ActiveX and VBScript; this prevents certain kinds of attacks, but also disables the normal functions of some sites.
Those are PROs if I ever saw one. Drive-by software installs and buggy Active-X is the reason I spend ten hours a month cleaning up computers of friends and family. WHo subseqently receive Mozilla and are forbidden to run IE except for Windows Update forevermore, on pain of no more free computer work.
Emphasis mine.
Now explain this? It's got boatloads more functionality (find as you type, tabbed browsing, popup blocker, livemarks [0.9+], etc etc.)... but it 'doesn't include many functions'.
Now how does IE rank? Please don't tell me feature rich. That's like calling is secure.
Considering I'd give IE a 0.5/5.0, there's no debate. The point is to use either of these before you use IE. The failure to patch IE after the Russian hacking debacle was the last straw. All users at my work are now on Firefox or Opera.
Also, I have a lot of "non-techie" friends. You should see the amount of adware/spyware littered on these computers. It makes me sick, and it's all IE's fault (pop-up > get scared > *click* > install > forget > go back to "pop-up"... go to site > install under users' radar > repeat... I'm sick of it). IE sucks.
-n-
Alright, so I loaded the Mozilla suite and I loved it. But when it got down to it there were two big problems.
1) Resources. I'm running Windows XP and from what I understand, there is no way I can remove Internet Explorer from my computer. Call me a space hog, but I don't like having un-used aps on my computer. I figure better to have an inferior browser on my computer, a little extra space, and less confusion then to load both of them. Can anyone solve that problem?
2) I ended up using Outlook because the Mail Server I use requires SPA and a security plug that is used solely by Microsoft. Mozilla's mail program going to solve this for me?
I install Firefox for everyone I help with PC's, and no one has ever complained or needed additional help to use it. I had one person tell me they need their old bookmarks, but I showed them where you can see IE's imported bookmarks in the menu.
I'm sure some of you already do this, but for those that don't, next time you're running ad-aware for your non-techie friends, install Firefox, show them the desktop shortcut, and tell them to click on that one for their Internet. They'll thank you for it when they stop getting pop ups and strange home pages and toolbars.
"Sorry, this browser does not support automated installation of trojans and other malicious applications, please upgrade to MSIE to further risk your computer security"
love slashdot. populate it. use it. abuse it. hate it. kill it. miss it. stop following links, they only kill servers.
Now that the Mozilla Foundation is a 501(c)3 organization I think I may have to insist that the family/friends make a little donation.
I was not touched there by an angel.
I guess PC magazine has loss some funding from Microsoft. They seem be being slightly less "Window Is the Best" in their views. And starting to see that there are alternatives and they can be just as good.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
I'm curious; Microsoft has really given up on IE development over the past few years. The last major release was version 6, and that was well over 3 years ago to the best of my recollection. Could it be that MS no longer sees web browsers as a viable resource for their future strategy? I really have no speculation on what they might have up their sleave, but MS hasn't been one to necessarily drop the ball like this. From a security standpoint, one could say they really screwed the pooch, but as far as releasing a snazzy new version or anything to gloss over the problems under the hood, they've kept their hands off.
--
Is it me, or did it just get fatter in here?
after the last ie bug i switched to mozilla
i am very happy with it.
everyting works fine. I have also gone over to friends house and installed it.
i just change the location of the old ie icon to the
new mozilla and no one can tell the difference.
thankyou mozilla. you have just made a friend for life! now if i only could figure out hot to have the bookmarks open every time i start the browser!
The browser isn't perfect, however. Firefox does not render nonstandard DHTML properly, nor does the Mozilla Organization have any intention of releasing a browser that does.
Well, good for them!
Durrrr!
Linux might not be ready for general public acceptance on their desktop, but using Open Source software such as Firefox, Open Office etc is the first step towards that acceptance. If you don't NEED Windows to run a program, it becomes alot easier to switch the underlying OS.
I get lots of people coming into Bestbuy to get spyware/viruses cleaned off their machines. I'm very often asked about the best way to keep these problems away, and I often recommend Firefox/Mozilla.
Of course, this does nothing for the "But I gotta have my Kazaa/Weatherbug/Searchbar" types...
this is the one thing i MISS about IE. firefox is definately slower at rendernig, and before you say it, yes ive done all the speed tweaks. anyone saying this hasnt done tests and is just spewing anti ms fud. other than rendering speed firefox is better in almost all other aspects i find.
the only downside to firefox I've found are problems with web sites designed ONLY to work with IE. I've only had the problem with a few web sites and hopfully as firefox gets more well known and excepted people will stop that kind of stupidity.
and I like it, but it is sooooo sloooowww. IE seems to render the pages faster. I like FireFox much better than Opera or IE or even Netscape for that matter. The popup blocker in FireFox rocks and is much better than the ones I had been using. I like the feel of it and it could be the IE killer. Unfortunately, I have to use IE at work, but at home it's FireFox all the way.
DHTML is HTML with Javascript. Its just a buzz word, why do these PC magazines keep touting it as the latest and greatest thing???
The browser isn't perfect, however. Firefox does not render nonstandard DHTML properly, (emphasis mine).
Hello!! You said it yourselves! NONSTANDARD. Its websites that aren't perfect, not the browser. *head explodes*
The Anti-Blog
The BBC are running a similar story too:
Did anyone else see this? A little spooky I think.
Slashdot, where armchair scientists get shouted down and armchair theologians get modded up.
This is a major undertaking for most users. I'll admit to using Konqueror now because it was set as the default browser for KDE applications. It also has features I love, like spell checking. I considered the effort to move to change those defaults not worth what I might gain. Sure, I still have and use Mozilla on occasion, but it's mostly when forced. The corresponding effort on Windoze is much greater, especially when exchange email servers are used. Of course, as the above article points out, the reasons for doing so are also much greater.
I recommend that people dump M$ all together but that's a different story.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Firefox doesn't have troubles with DHTML...
"Firefox does not render nonstandard DHTML properly, nor does the Mozilla Organization have any intention of releasing a browser that does."
Non-standard DHTML isn't really DHTML is it?
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
Before FireFox becomes the target off major exploits. Hopefully Firefox will stand up against it, and the Open source world will respond as fast as expected.
What seems to be the problem with the button order and what is stopping you customising them to your own preferrence?
The browser isn't perfect, however. Firefox does not render nonstandard DHTML properly...
So it is bad that the browser does not render bad source correctly?
Granted, the article does go on to mention that this is not Firefox's fault, but they way it is cast as a problem really rubs the wrong way.
Life is like a web application. Sometime you need cookies just to get by.
Also used Opera for a while. I really liked Opera, but it did have problems with javascript. Interesting to see that they are still working on that.
As for Firefox, I still like plain old Mozilla better but looking forward to version 1.0.
For me, as things stand right now. I like Mozilla the best with Konqueror coming in second.
A goal is a dream with a deadline
I have used Mozilla/Firewhatever for several years now. However, the latest version of Firefox leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I have had numerous freezes (many requiring the process to be killed) under both Windows and Linux. Anyone else had a similar experience?
is Inotes. It will fall back to a lame interface, but won't do anything through a proxy. Come on, IBM, this is ridiculous.
My poor Opera only scored 3.5 stars. I think thats incredibly sad...I only recently started to use Opera and I have to say its taken the place of Firefox as my favorite browser.
The only issue I have with it is the memory footprint. If you've got a lot of memory in your machine, it likes to swell up. Of course this could just be a Win 2k issue, since I don't notice it asmuch on my XP box at home.
The only issue I had initially with FireFox and Mozilla is how slow they seem to load picture-heavy sites such as www.cnn.com
// This one makes a huge difference. Last value in milliseconds (default is 250)
// Change to normal Google search: q =");
// Instead of annoying error dialog messages, display pages:
To speed up the load times of all sites add the following to your user.js file (if it doesnt exist - for Windows users, go to the run menu and type: %AppData% and then browse through the Mozilla folder and any sub folders until you get to your profile folder - inside of this create a new text document and call it user.js):
user_pref("nglayout.initialpaint.delay", 0);
user_pref("keyword.URL", "http://www.google.com/search?btnG=Google+Search&
user_pref("browser.xul.error_pages.enabled", true);
The other two changes are ones i've found useful as well - the second one changes the browser to do a normal Google search from the location bar instead of doing an "I'm Lucky" Google search (this is more useful in Mozilla than FireFox since FireFox comes w/ the Google search bar built in).
The third change makes Mozilla and FireFox display error pages like IE instead of annoying dialog boxes when an error occurs (such as page not found). This helps a TON when doing tabbed browsing.
Hope those tips are helpful for everyone else as much as they were for me. For more of them go to http://texturizer.net/firefox/tips.html
"To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson
Javascript errors, poor printing controls, and they got rid of windows home pages (still the most efficient setup IMHO). Do like the new layout and news panel, though, but not wild about email. I also like the layout controls, and Opera is the most accessible mainstream browser.
You complain about adding FireFox because it takes up some room and then IE would be "useless".
:)
Yet you're more than happy to add AdAware and SpyBot to your system.
"Really, IE isn't that inferior of a browser to me. It's a decent browser. I'd prefer Mozilla, but it just isn't worth it to deal with conflicting apps."
Whatever works for you. Personally, I'll take the increased security, pop-up blocking, ad blocking, and tabbed browsing and leave IE there for those few websites that I need that run ActiveX or some crap.
I just find it very funny that you complain about the space for FireFox and then install AdAware and SpyBot.
Look at your keyboard. See the keys on either side of the 'letter' keys with the arrow-thingees pointing up. These are called 'shift' keys. Try 'em. Based on what you typed, I'm guessing you found the one above the left shift called 'Caps Lock', but it is a very poor substitute.
First of all, the site works fine, and second, the article has multiple pages and this guy just pasted the first one, leaving out huge chunks of article.
Check before modding article reposts up.
9.1 does not have the needed shell patch.
Even though I use Firefox as my main browser, IE is so much faster at rendering pages, you can even see it. Mozilla/Firefox on the other hand renders like molasses.
Firefox is great but not simple
once you start adding in extensions it becomes very feature rich it all depends on how you use it.
locating good extensions is a pain it would be nice to get them all in one place and rated by users.
my favourite extension is Linky which allows you to highlight text on a page and open the links highlighted in tabs.
gestures also get my vote although i only remember a few of them.
Blarney Quality Restaurant, Plants
Another possible explanation is, like me, I visit /. at work where I don't get to select my OS. And, of course, M$ is all over the office-space world. So maybe that's one explanation.
I agree. I am an Opera user since way back. It is still my main browser but I use Firefox extensively. Mainly because of Operas poor javascript implementation.
I can't read my Gmail with Opera, My online banking doesnt' work with Opera. I use add suported because if I need a second browser I am not paying for the first.
Fix that (or ignore that) and it is by far the best browser IMO. This is from someone typing on Firefox right now.
Opera even with all features integrated is leaner and faster. None of the features collide, which is a problem I have with some firefox extensions (to try and get Opera functionality).
Opera addiction. Opera seems to be the only browser with true page caching. Hit back 4 times as fast as you can and instantly you will be back 4 pages. No load times and seemingly no render times. It is totally cached. This is like browsing on JOLT. Once you get hooked on the speed it is hard to go back.
To me going to the slower browsers is like going from DSL to dialup. I need my speed.
Instead of using the default Windows software, as you have seen, other applications runs well under windows: Firefox and Opera are cool for browsing, but now that you are on the way to change your mind, give thunderfox a try, it is far better than outlook (or outlook express).
Then, forget your included windows media player, and try alternatives like BSplayer and others. When you want to edit a picture, use Gimp for windows or replace your illegal copy of Word by OpenOffice.
And if you enjoy what you are getting, and this new perspective of choices, jump in and join the GNU/Linux community.
First off, you shouldn't totally uninstall it, else you lose access to Windows Update. Sure you can use the auto-update, but you lose a lot of control that way, and you won't get access to the non-critical patches that way.
On top of that, the benefit of freeing up the drive space IE requires is not worth the headahce of trying to remove the damn thing, especially since part of it is built into the OS. Instead, if you have the Service Patch installed, you can use the Control Panel uninstall, which simply removes access to IE. At least it'll keep IE "out of sight, out of mind..."
This is not the greatest sig in the world, no. This is a tribute.
Another helpful feature is that both of these browsers can save a group of open pages as a session, which you can then open at start-up.
Maybe a dumb question, but how do you do this? That's one of the key things that's been holding me back in the now ancient CrazyBrowser.
We've already seen significant security holes in Firefox, and this is with a negligible market share. Once it gets targetted directly, exploits may be just as common as they currently are with Internet Explorer.
And if that happens, where is the security update infrastructure to ensure everyone gets patched? Microsoft won't integrate Firefox into Automatic Updates. Sure, mailing lists and /. will carry the news of new Firefox security flaws, but will the average user see those announcements?
The problem with telling users to switch to Firefox for security reasons is that it's usually sold as a permanent fix to the problem, when in all honesty it never will be.
But the user, having been told that "Firefox is secure", probably won't bother checking the Mozilla site on a regular basis, if ever. Automatic update notification is supposed to be coming in the future, but that does little for anyone who's installed Firefox in the past couple of weeks and doesn't plan to touch it again.
Space: Firefox is only about 6MB and the installer app for Windows is only 4.7.
Confusion: To alleviate confusion, just set Firefox as your default browser. That way, every hyperlink you click on from inside Windows will point to Firefox->web. Then, just remove the IE icons and replace them with Firefox ones, and you are set. Or, if you really wanted, the "E" buttons can also be remapped to point to Firefox/Mozilla.
Email: I don't know about your mail issue, but it can probably be worked out. Personally, I still use Outlook Express because I am too lazy to switch.
how do i get the java plugin running on firefox? it just hangs when i try to install sun's xpi
yap
But I do not recommend removing IE, because you may have to purchase/locate networking components that IE already does for free, and for convenience in keeping Windows patched.
1) Windows Update only runs on IE. If you remove IE, you have to update windows manually. With Critical Security Updates coming in at an average of once a week, this could become tiresome. Windows can be set to download and install patches automatically.
2) The javascript utility Windows uses to detect network settings is tied into IE. When you have trouble connecting Windows to a network, it comes up automatically in IE, and you are given the option of having it detect your proxies, etc and try to reconnect. Especially useful if you have a DSL/Cable connection that likes to pull the rug out from under you at random intervals with DHCP changes.
You can do DHTML just fine with event-driven CSS, no Javascript needed. It's up to the browser then if it supports "standard" DOM events and CSS, but you technically don't need (ECMA|Java)Script to do DHTML.
...just want to point out that it's just a Google text ad in the toolbar. Completely unintrusive, and after two days unnoticeable unless you happen to be bored and want to look at what it's saying (which ranks up there with reloading /. on ways to waste time effortlessly).
Work is punishment for failing to procrastinate effectively.
One thing I've noticed is that slashdot doesn't quite load right with firefox. the menu runs into the text.
http://www.rustyrazorblade.com
I so agree with this... Opera is SO close at replacing the three browsers I have to flop between now. Just adding better J scripting support and it would be there.
I love Seasquid - I mean Firefox (I also use the Firesomething extension) - because of the little touches that make my browsing experience better. I realize that the Googlebar has its advantages, but I don't use it (or the search area on the toolbar, for that matter) because of bookmark keywords. I simply hit CTRL+T (to open a new tab) and type "g " and the words I'm searching for. That returns a Google Search results page. (By default, the keyword is "google" - look in the properties of any bookmark, but there is a default Google bookmark under "Quick Searches")
It's these little touches (like CTRL+SHIFT for .net domains) that I love.
Firefox has this (Tools, options, privacy, cookies, exceptions) and the prompt for cookies allows always accepting cookies from the site (adds the site to the Exceptions list).
So... have you used your "browser" to "view" any "web sites" recently? Or do you just simply "view local files" with it?
Would you drive a Ford Explorer fitted with Firestone tyres? No? Why not? When they are used correctly (ie. not run with the tyres half-flat) they are perfectly safe.
This annoyed me too. But then I found Cookie Culler, an extension.
Eh? It's certainly not a FireFox win, the editor gives his choice of best browser as Internet Explorer 6.0
Opera seems to be the only browser with true page caching. Hit back 4 times as fast as you can and instantly you will be back 4 pages. No load times and seemingly no render times. It is totally cached. This is like browsing on JOLT. Once you get hooked on the speed it is hard to go back.
That's not a feature that is unique to opera. I know for a fact that IE can do it and I am fairly certain that FF can do it as well.
In IE, its' a matter of Internet Options -> General -> Temporary Internet Files -> Settings. I prefer to have it check back to see if the site has been updated myself.
Not everything is analogous to cars. Car analogies rarely work.
A brilliant and simple extension. Find a URL that isn't hyperlinked, highlight it, right click and go there. Lovely.
Seen this. Not so spooky.
Information doesn't want to be anthropomorphized anymore.
And most pop-ups, if they're not blocked, open in separate tabs underneath the current page so they don't slow you down.
That's not a feature. That the pop-ups do that by design in the web page code.
Not everything is analogous to cars. Car analogies rarely work.
FYI, I think the problem with the Explorers and Firestones was that the tires were actually overinflated, giving them less contact with the road.
I recently installed Mozilla, but I still need my hotmail account... Even if Mozilla is set as my main browser and main emailware, when I click a link from an email in my Hotmail inbox, it opens IE... and when I click the "email" button in MSN Messenger, it opens Outlook.
Is it possible to castrate this annoyance?
I developed a website that works great in IE 4 or above, any version of mozilla or Firebird, Konqueror, even Netscape 4, but it has major problems with Opera, all Javascript related.
It would seem to me that this is the gcc version problem... The new FF is 3.3.3, right?
Is there a current fix?
im in ur
The XUL stuff is really powerful, and making new toolbars etc is an exciting area IMO.
Opera has an option to start where you left off last time, Mozilla has the Session Saver extension.
Working for the DoD, we're required to shut down all non-essential computers at the end of the week under the theory that there's a security risk in leaving machines exposed over the weekend when we're less likely to have the security monitored.
This sig has absolutely no significance and serves only to take up screen space and waste the time of the reader.
Hi
I've run ieradicator on my win2k box here, and windows update works just fine. It leaves the rendering engine on the machine so that apps that use it (such as WU) still work.
The really great part though is that windoze cannot change my default browser anymore!!
I was using Mozilla for years until I tried Firefox. I liked it enough to switch since it was a bit faster but still had all the features I wanted (tabs,content blocking, etc)...
But, I have to admit that I've switched for good to MyIE2 (renamed Maxthon).. (I'll forgive the terrible product name). It loads as fast as IE with the features of Mozilla and then some. In fact, there's almost too many options. But, once configured to how you like it, I think it'll beat them all. Given that it's totally free (no ads either) you should give it a shot.
I'm actually curious how many people have used this browser since you hardly ever hear it mentioned along Opera,Moz,Firefox,IE, etc...
-j
I'm sure every single 3D artist out there uses a web browser, but how many web browser users are 3D artists? Your analogy is crap. It's more like driving a car and not knowing that there are a number of models out there to choose from. I admit my ignorance in the realm of 3D modeling, but I'm also not insulted by this in the slightest.
"I may not have morals, but I have standards."
...http://www.pcmag.com/print_article/0,1761,a=131 189,00.asp
No annoying ads either.
I am NaN
Their IE6 review isn't loading for me. But I'd assume the date is somewhere in late-2001 or early 2002. A 2-year-old "4 star review" isn't impressive for a web browser.
Cons:
Default installation doesn't include many functions; you have to download additional features via the Extensions Manager. Will not load ActiveX and VBScript; this prevents certain kinds of attacks, but also disables the normal functions of some sites
This guy imagines that not supporting ActiveX and VBScript is a bad thing???
Heavens! I can't have my drive-by downloads? Horrors!
Uh, in Opera:
File/Sessions/Save Session...
The texturizer firefox faq has the details.
I didn't use the xpinstall method, I just downloaded the java runtime from suns site and installed it, it detected firefox and installed the java plugin automagically.
I am NaN
No, they were under inflated, which increased the amount of friction from flexing and contact with the road. Then then overheated and destroyed themselves.
Let me explain: We'll take the browser word as all of we are thinking, ie. a program that displays/navigates webpages. Web pages are HTML, transferred to the browser using HTTP. HTTP is a "defined" standard, and it marks as REQUIRED the compliance with some other RFC docs, one of them being the URI definition doc, in which is allowed the proto://user:pass@site/path that MSIE disabled in one of the latest 500 patches. Let's do some 1-1=0 MSIE doesn't support http, and then it shouldn't be called browser.
I keep getting these emails telling me to apply this patch it sent me. Funny, automatic updates never worked this way before. I assume I should be installing all these patches they send me in email?
If you like CrazyBrowser, you really should be using Maxthon (formerly MyIE2):
;) And it's updated constantly.
http://www.maxthon.com
It's like SUPER CrazyBrowser
I've been using Firefox for a few months now and I absolutely love it. The popup blocking is great, tabbed browsing makes working with multiple open web sites easy, find as you type is a real time saver and so is the built in Google search bar. The compact UI is cool as well because more screen realistate is devoted to the website I'm lookking at.
I can't recommend Firefox highly enough. If you enable Automatic Updates in Windows, there's really no reason to use IE. I've only come across a site or two that required IE in order to display correctly and when it happened I fired off a note to the webmaster.
If you haven't tried Firefox and are using IE what in the world are you waiting for? The worst that can happen is that you decided you don't like it and uninstall it. When you compare that to just some of the annoying things that can and do happen when running IE (spyware, malware, constant pop-ups, constant security issues, etc) trying Firefox becomes a no brainer.
more extensions for mozilla
"if i'd known it was harmless, i'd have killed it myself"
Those are IE _security_ features.
The problem is with broken sites. And I think (and I'm not alone) it is now time to say f... you to sites that does not respect standards.
Firefox and Mozilla love to hog up my memory. Again, I have to ask, why do they re-implement all their own widgets? It's completely insane. It's just a browser.
Opera is speedy, it renders Slashdot correctly (something Mozilla and Firefox still can't do), and it doesn't suck up all my memory just because some people wanted to reinvent the wheel. And all of Opera's best featurs have been ripped off and hailed as Mozilla innovations. Tabbed browsing? Mouse gestures? Pop-up blocking? It was all Opera first.
The browser isn't perfect, however. Firefox does not render nonstandard DHTML properly
Isn't it kinda ironic, declaring that it is "not perfect" because it doesn't render "nonstandard pages".
Hopefully a Firefox guru will read this. :-)
/usr/share/doc/* hierarchy. Any time I click on a file that ends in .gz, FF helpfully asks if I'd like to save the file to disk. Well, it's already on my disk, thank you very much, but I wanted to read it!!
I am running Debian and am annoyed that I am unable to view gzipped text files such as those that populate the
Since nearly every other utility on a GNU based system is gzip aware, but the fact that FF is not annoys me to no end. How might I have FF call gunzip and then display the text itself?
Thanks in advance.
- Nate >>
"Insanity is doing the same thing over again expecting a different result."
--Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; Actually Mozilla Firefox - try it now!)
The beauty of the FireFox design IS the plugins - you can do this kind of thing.
Oh, and by the way, there are many other ways to do this, and you can also do it in Opera and Mozilla. Here's a comprehensive article on how to manipulate the User Agent strings.
--Brandon / Split Infinity Music
You of course are forgetting to realize that many of us are FORCED to use Windows and IE in our work environments. And how could one let the day go by without catching up on the latest slashdot news at least several times during your 8 hours of hell? :)
:)
PS - I'm posting this from work
Joseph?
At least IE renders slashodot correctly. With firefox 0.9.2 under XP, the articles and the left nav bar overlap. I found it a bit ironic that the premiere open source browser doesn't render the premiere open source news site.
"Ignorance is not neccessarily meant to be taken as an insult. Simply not knowing something is not so bad a thing."
I'm not saying it is. However, it is the general opinion here that people that use IE are stupid. You can't honestly tell me you think that the post I replied to meant that in a nice way.
"I admit my ignorance in the realm of 3D modeling, but I'm also not insulted by this in the slightest."
You would be if I were to act elitist about it. The words themselves aren't the insult, it's how it is carried across. If I tried to use my knowledge of normal mapping to place myself as a higher being, you may not be offended that I know more than you on that topic, but you would think I'm a big asshole for trying to pass trivia off as knowledge. You'd come right back and tell me what a jerk I am. I don't know about you personally, but a lot of people would intentionally avoid learning about what normal mapping is in order to avoid becoming a jerk like me.
"I'm sure every single 3D artist out there uses a web browser, but how many web browser users are 3D artists? Your analogy is crap."
I agree. If my analogy had anything to do with 3D artists using web browsers, it would be crap.
"Derp de derp."
Reviews are all well and good but the publics view of browser alternatives is skewed to the point of lunacy. I had post on another forum, the article about the Homeland Security people suggesting people not use IE. The replies were your standard "Yay" and "Boo", but at least one person post that they did not want to switch to another browser because it is viewed as an "anti-social" or "not main stream" browser. I can see how many people are scared to go else where or try something new. It is something that has been embed in our social society for a very long time. (Well, after the 60s or so) So, work on your co-workers, if homeland security comes up in conversation with people, bring this up. Work on getting the virus that is IE out of peoples computers!
Either that or the poster's too dumb to trust with a loaded computer. Or a Bill Gates sycophant. Those ar eth eobvious explanations (to me) for someone who'd accuse someone else of not using a browser, but who then cliams to use a browser they obviously didn't attempt to understand.
I always thought that in order to use Firefox you needed to be able to think in Russian. I'm surprised you don't see microsoft pointing this out as drawback.
"If you merely want to browse the Web quickly without any bells and whistles, Mozilla Firefox 0.9.1 is worth the free download."
I'm shocked by this statement. The implication that Firefox is
(a) lacking 'bells and whistles' and
(b) only conditionally valuable, despite being free,
are fucking ridiculous.
How on earth can the reviewer seriously count 'lack of ActiveX support' as a negative. pcmag sucks. This 'review' is crap. Not because I disagree with it, but because it's wrong.
And this would be worse than the current situation where it takes forever to get IE fixed, and most people don't have a clue what's on their computer.... how?
Anyone that still completely disables cookies is a tinfoil-hat nutjob.
I've known otherwise smart people that disable them, thinking they were an invasion of privacy. Because, as we all know, cookies (which are by definition set by the server) transmit your SSN, credit card information, birth date, and mother's maiden name directly to leethackers.com, as they are psychic masters, able to read thoughts directly out of your brain.
doing tech support on a stubborn ie users computer? heres my solution: delete all of their ie icons, replace them with firefox icons, rename the firefox icons "Internet Explorer" or whatever idiot thing they were called before, replace the icon with the blue 'e' icon, tell them you "updated their internet explorer with a newer version." what they dont know, cant hurt them. ;-)
Pea...tear...Griffin? Yea, yea, Peter Griffin.
They were also driven at 100mph (electronically governed) in the burning Texas heat. The vehicles were also overloaded. All of those factors further increased the strain to the point where the tires catastrophically failed.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
- Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Does anyone else have difficulty sending Outlook Webmail from Firefox? I seem to run into this little roadblock every time. I have never been able to get it to work. If I could solve this issue, it would mean a lot of people besides myself could move away from IE.
I am aware there is a cute plugin to launch IE for a specific link or site and it does help but it doesn't solve the problem.
Opera is a non-free browser which managed to survive the MS domination of the market. I have been using (purchasing) Opera since version 3.60.
A shareware surviving the browser war is something by itself irrespective of anyone's review.
A slow computer will not work with the other browsers as good as it works with Opera. The newer versions became more buggy compared to the older versions, but from my experience, it still better than the other alternatives; furthermore, you get a browser, email, chatting, ect in under 4 MB.
"That's not a feature that is unique to opera. I know for a fact that IE can do it and I am fairly certain that FF can do it as well. "
c ities/ca n/pages/CAON0512.htm
Actually having the option is not the same as having a speedy implementation of it. I just tested all three browsers.
I changed IE as you suggested. With firefox I used preferential to change the cache check_doc_frequency to never.
I then ran a series of web pages in each then stepped back and forward with buttons. Results:
Opera seems like you are flipping a static image cache it is that fast. No hesitation absolutely instant.
Both IE and FF have noticiable delay, you can see the items drawn on the screen. In one page they took a long time. Firefox was the slowest and still seemed to be loading. Perhaps the option doesn't work.
This page was quite slow on both. All pages lightning on Opera.
http://www.theweathernetwork.com/weather/
If I had to guess, I would say opera is caching pre-rendered pages, while the others store files but render when you load the page.
Whatever the reason, my original point remains, Opera is an Order of magnitude faster with cached pages. It is not contest. Once you get used to INSTANT, you can't go back.
The nicest features have to do with file management. sftp, ftp and other protocols work seemlessly and with split screen views, so you can drag and drop files anywhere you have permission to write. It also has very good previews for most image files, including pdf. Configurations can be saved as "profiles" which can be switched on the fly. As a browser, it renders well but lacks Mozilla's precision and ease of right click advert and image blocking.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
It's easy to ignore one or two nonsense words, like the names of most Microsoft programs that are not common words.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Imagine if the entire IE market were to start using Firefox. How many of them do you think would use extensions?
For the average user, there's a huge advantage to having a product that was designed
I won't speak to people getting excited over a 1% drop in IE usage, because that just seems silly to me, but taking each of those FUD-sounding statements in turn I came up with the following:
"IE is insecure because of ActiveX"
According to Microsoft,"An ActiveX control can be an extremely insecure way to provide a feature...the control may be vulnerable to attack because any Web application on the Internet can repurpose it, that is, use the control for its own ends whether sincere or malicious.". There are numerous other sources for the "ActiveX makes IE insecure" opinion, but if I were making a case for it I'd start with something directly from the company responsible for IE. To be fair, the article goes on to discuss what you can do as a developer to make your own ActiveX components secure, but I refer back to the first sentence and think about the old adage concerning chains and their weakest links...
"Microsoft has said they will never support CSS2"
Again, according to Microsoft,"Stricter parsing is more consistent with the standards promulgated by the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C)--the CSS, Level 1 (CSS1) and CSS, Level 2 (CSS2) specifications.". This seems to imply that IE does, in fact, support CSS2, but if a dissenting opinion can be backed up with proof (i.e.- "insert this CSS2 compliant stuff into a simple HTML page and watch IE 6 vomit on it") I'd sooner believe that than the MS site. I'm just lazy and attempting to address each point using only Microsoft-approved information...so on this point, at least, I have to admit that it's FUD according to what MS would have you believe.
"IE runs faster than Mozilla because it's integrated in the kernel"
Again, Microsoft has an archived news story that says, among other things, "DOJ's Request for New Court Order Shows that Internet Explorer is an Integrated Feature of Windows". Granted, this is from 1997 and refers to Win95/IE 3.0, but I'm lazy and couldn't find anything more current WRT IE's integrated/nonintegrated status. Given the assumption that IE's relationship to the OS has remained the same, I think it's reasonable to suggest that an application that's part of the OS will run faster than one that isn't.
So, through some very cursory research, it would appear that there is some factual basis for at least two of those three allegations according to sources at the organization that is the target of the supposed FUD.
And so, ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, if Chewbacca does not make sense...
"Linux doesn't exist. Everyone knows Linux is an unlicensed version of Unix"- Kieren O'Shaughnessy
Furthermore, the post you quoted simply stated that IE's horrible security record is demonstrable by evidence, also a fact without any real condemnation. None of these posts had any sort of condemnation of IE users, which is what you seem to have inferred. Perhaps you saw something in them that wasn't really there? It's still crap. Your analogy expects someone who doesn't use anything related to 3D modelling to know something about it, but this has no relation to the subject at hand. Instead, try asking someone for some basic knowledge about something they do use, like asking a 3D modeller using IE about Mozilla, since they obviously know and use a web browser. This actually applies, and as such it would make a better analogy than your own.
"I may not have morals, but I have standards."
This crap about "IE runs faster because it's part of the OS" is a myth propounded by people who really just don't know anything about how Windows loads processes and DLLs. Haha. That's the funniest quote for the day ! I call you troll.
get your optimized builds here
http://pryan.org/mozilla/firefox/
arielb
" but what surprised me is that I really don't think the post you replied to was meant in a bad way. The grandparent post said that they used IE out of habit and ignorance, and the parent post to yours said that billions of people did the same."
I don't read it that way, but it's not as clear to me that it was meant to be insulting now as it was earlier when I posted my last response. In other words, you've helped me reconsider my view a bit.
"It's still crap. Your analogy expects someone who doesn't use anything related to 3D modelling to know something about it, but this has no relation to the subject at hand."
Bullshit. People play games and watch movies made from 3D techniques. They know what polygons are. Just like IE users know what browsers are, but they don't know much past that for lack of interest. This is all moot anyway since you completely avoided the elitist part of my comment. Simply put, if I were a nice 3D artist, I would not use the word 'ignorant' to describe people that are unaware of what normal mapping is. It's not often you do hear the word ignorant in a nice way.
"Derp de derp."
I concur. Opera caches every page, so even for ones that are dynamically rendered, there's no reconnecting to the server. The _only_ site I've ever seen that took longer to load in Opera is here. Some sort of script runs which totally halts Opera for about 5 seconds. Drives me nuts, but at least it's only the first time per session.
Dyolf Knip
There is something wrong with password management in comparison with Mozilla 1.X.
Does anyone have any problems with it?
Just as a point of interest, that page rendered pretty much instantly for me on Opera 7.50/Win2k on a fast machine with 1G of memory.
Maybe some fresh installing is needed.
"It seems like we're ultimately trying to make the same point, but from different angles. We both seem to agree that being ignorant of things like the deep details of securing your web browser is nothing to be ashamed of. Your issue seems to be more with using the term "ignorant" in general, while mine is with the criticism of people for that ignorance. It leads to the same point in the end, as far as I can see."
;)
You pretty much got it. To elaborate a bit, I think the community would enjoy better success in getting people to try Mozilla if they avoided the whole "we think we're above IE users" mentality. Remember the Mac vs. PC wars?
Anyway, thank you for taking the time to understand. Like you said earlier, it's a lot to ask of Slashdot. Makes me regret being an ass before.
"Derp de derp."
So now that you've been slashdotted again, how does it break down?
Sorry, I don't consider ActiveX and VBScript as valid DHTML -- they're more like, "Let's write some scripting to help IE because we don't understand how to make use of existing technologies."
"Some sites don't work" -- that's their own fault for using that trash.
Well in Opera 7.52 (which I use) you go to file -> sessions and pick what you want to do, save, open, or whatever. On save, you have a choice to set this session as what you startup as, you can later set/change this in preferences.
Opera, Proxomitron-Grypen,GPG 0x0A1C6EE3
sounds like a good idea to me.
I don't read or respond to AC posts
Let me just add that BSPlayer is an amazing program that runs much faster and easier than any current Windows Media Player version (admitedly, I have no problems with the 'unsupported' WMP 6.x but you can't get that from Microsoft anymore). I'm surprised more people on the Windows platform haven't heard it. In addition to a wide variety of features like subtitles, surround sound, faster seeking and... well actually I'm not very good at remembering which features WMP also has. But here's something really cool... BSPlayer can play incomplete files fairly well. That's right, corrupted downloads or badly compressed video is no longer a problem... as long as you have the appropriate codecs installed (still a necessary evil to install them manually, Gregorian Knot helps though)... you can view it. Even from unfinished P2P.
Having just pronounced my love for BSPlayer, let me just say that an open-source application named VideoLAN plays incomplete files even better than BSPlayer, but it falls short in many other areas. I believe it's original purpose is to view streaming media off of a network.
In mozilla you can just load up the tab group you want and then go into preferences and say "Use Current Group" for your homepage...
;-)
Don't know about Firefox (note that I ACTUALLY use the rest of the components of the mozilla suite
Friedmud
I would agree, except it does it on both my work machine (1.0 celeron w/ 192MB) and my home machine (2.4 P4 w/ 512 DDR), both Win2k & Opera 7.23, both can browse like a dream otherwise. But if you tell me it's not totally ubiquitous, I will see what I can see.
Dyolf Knip
Until about a week ago when i was introduced to Firefox. Here I'll give my opinions based on years of browsing and although I've used virtually every browser out there from lynx to safari I primarily use IE and have for the last several years so I will compare Firefox to it. As I've read other posts comparing speed, I find both of them render comparably fast, are compatible with roughly the same media and are basically equal at this level. People complain about the load times compared to IE but I really don't notice it that much, and there is none with tabs, they're very fast. I was skeptical at first and it still has a few annoying things I don't like but they're fewer than what I do so I'll list them first:
/. i'm looking at right now.
CONS
1.) you can't just press enter like in IE after entering information eg login/password, searches anything you have to press tab THEN enter.
2.) it doesn't pass off most wmv files to mplayer2 like it should and does with everything else fine
3.) why can't i run exes? must it not only second guess me but lock me into a forced download/install/delete cycle when IE lets me just execute after the download is complete trusting me to make the right choice?
PROS
1.) easily installed (ctrl-d, i like hte mimiced funcationality as it makes migrating easier for me and i'm lazy) highly functional bookmark toolbar buttons which even show the related website graphic with the associated website such as the green
2.) multiple browser tabs easily opened (ctrl-t), i had heard about these before but i grossly underestimated just how useful these really are until i started using them, never again will i go hunt and peck for the right IE window at the bottom my ever cramped taskbar.
3.) beautiful and extremely functional themes with details only someone who made it with love would think to include like red/yellow/green status lights for if a tabbed page is loading and separate forward and back list box histories (i'm using nautipolis from the site i found simply by clicking on "get themes")
4.) extension plug-ins available that flawlessly install, notable examples include a tiny java vm compared to the huge sun download and resource hog, easily done macromedia flash without any bullshit of registering or clicking through 400 pages to install associated with a similar typical IE 3rd party install, these are all seamlessly integrated and the installs are smooth. My personal favorite and most important extension is the adblock extension, which allows me to block source sites for ads with a simple right click and a wildcard.
5.) built in search and popup blocking, you take these things for granted if you have the google toolbar installed as i did but this takes up less realestate (almost none, a tiny google search thumb in the right corner) and is more functional and the google news button is easily emulated as per the buttons mentioned above.
Overall Firefox is extremely impressive and I'm rarely impressed and not only is it a lesson to microsoft not to sit on their laurels, in regards to adding actual functionality instead of endless security patches but its really a testament to how free software should be, polished, easy to use, portable and easily added on to by others. It's software products like these that will undermine monopolies and I'm sure htey're not unaware of the threat.
It's a pity there isn't a few billion dollars to market Firefox with or they would dominate. Even so word of mouth is powerful and it generates a momentum that is difficult to turn back.
are both broken in the latest versions of Moz and FireFox.
However, JavaScript wasn't broken in earlier versions. I don't think caching has ever been properly implemented.
The teams for both projects need to fix at least caching before the next release. It shouldn't have taken so long to use the complete URL to decide the cached file name. MD5 URL + MD5 filename + filename = final cache name. Heck you could even just strip out the non filename friendly characters.
Since I'm currently working with software rendering in JavaScript, those two major problems with the browsers keep me using IE which I've never had an issue with.
Ben
Work Safe Porn
One thing not mentioned in the reviews is that, while both browsers allow the user to change the reported user-agent string (Firefox through an add-on extension), only Firefox does this correctly, while Opera reports the user-agent you specify, PLUS Opera as well.
To make Firefox render pages faster than IE, start by typing "about:config" in your FireFox address bar. Look for nglayout.initialpaint.delay and set it to 0 (zero).
The initialpaint.delay is the length of time (in milliseconds) after the server response before the browser begins to paint the page. By default it is 250 milliseconds, and even though by setting it to 0 (like Internet Explorer) makes it _seem_ to display pages faster, it ends up taking more overall time than with the default value.
You can also make Firefox faster by:
1.) Setting network.http.pipelining to true
2.) Setting network.http.proxy.pipelining to true
3.) Setting network.http.pipelining.maxrequests to a number between 1 and 8
Enabling the pipelining features allows the browser to make multiple requests to the server at the same time. The "maxrequests" is the maximum number of requests it will send at once. 8 is the maximum Firefox allows it to be, but it may bog down yours, or the server, connection, so it is best to leave these options on their default values.
More information about these and other tweaks are available at the MozillaZine's Firefox Tuning Thread.
"You should never doubt what nobody is sure about." -- Willy Wonka
You can get "find as you type" feature in IE with HandyFind. It only takes about a minute to download+install.
On my home machine now. Again no issue. AMD 2500/512MB/Win2k. Opera 7.52.
Firefox has "issues" with DHTML and Opera has "issues" with Javascript.
Uh-huh.
I don't suppose they mentioned IE's "issues" with PNG files and CSS-1 standards.
Typical PC magazine "let's all upgrade again" FUD.
Business isn't willing to pay for products, innovation and careers, so we get brands, mortgage commercials and layoffs.
Do you know how to disable the mousewheel 'accelerator'? And also how to limit one mousewheel click to just one line? I hate the default settings, the way it just takes off down the page at a rapid rate of knots. It's too quick and I need more control than I get at the moment.
This was the reason I initially ditched IE and moved to Safari (until I discovered all the other reasons I should be using Safari
Another thing I love about Opera is when you submit a form of some kind (like on my bank), you can go back and look at the previous page without any worries-- or what I often do is while I'm filling out the form go back and look at the previous page, then go forward and keep filling out the form without losing any data. Opera caches it all. But in many other browsers you get a "page expired" error, or the form is cleared which really pisses me off.
I love gestures too, but gestures in moz/FF still cause random crashes and don't reliably recognize the correct gesture. I love Opera's transfer panel with the quick download option, and about twenty other things. I was a Netscape fan in the days of IE, and then an Opera fan in the early days of Mozilla. Opera has consistantly performed and innovated while others have copied and played catch-up.
I am not some kind of elitist, I think moz and FF are really cool, and not everyone is going to pay for their browser. I don't want to se IE go away, rather I would like as many browsers as possible and the most choice for the people. I regularly use Opera, IE, FireFox, dillo, lynx, and Konqueror. They all serve their particular purpose. When X is not up, or not working, I use lynx (or links, sometimes w3m as well). When on the Redhat machines at work I often use Konqueror. At home and on my windows boxen I use Opera, IE, and Firefox. On my slower laptop I use Opera and dillo.
I often hear people harping on Opera because it is not free (as in beer), or because they will only use software that is free (as in speech). I think we should support free (as in speech) software as alternatives to nonfree software, but at the same time not write off innovations and advances that exist purely because of your personal politics. Lets not stifle choice and diversity in the name of choice OR freedom from <insert large corporation name here>. Putting the power, as it were, in the hands of the few is always a bad idea; be it the few who give their source away for free, or the few who give their compiled executable code away for free.
The only thing holding me back from pushing firefox - or any other browser for that matter - to users desktops across the enterprise is the severe lack of central controls to manage such a task.
As many holes as IE has security wise, I can update/patch/re-configure/whatever I want using AD Policies and SMS.
It's a shame other browsers have no capabilitie (one of the cavets of NOT being integrated into the OS I presume!), if they did have them IE would be the last thing my users can execute from their desktops.
That is why I have been using Opers since version 3.20
.... well that is junk and when that junk matters, I can enable it by the F12 shortcut.
The current version has the similar features to specify server related behaviour for cookies. As for the other junk as ActiveX, Java, Flash
Too bad that Konqueror isn't getting the attention it deserves.
It's not available on windows so I guess that's why... Too bad.
Treehugger? Treehugger... Treehugger!
With Firefox/Mozilla extensions you can:
Take quick notes
Nuke an image
Save your sessions
But since I don't want those extensions, I don't have them installed. Less bloat for me! Hope this helps...
"Ignorance of the law is no excuse" - The US Supreme Court thinks we should know each and every one of the millions upon millions of US laws by heart, once we turn 18. On top of that, we're supposed to know the infinite number of possible ways the courts will interpret the laws. The Government thinks the average joe is ignorant. Geeks think the average joe is ignorant too.
Are we REALLY ignorant? Or are we just busy living our own lives? I certainly don't have time to fuss over technical esoterica that I'm not getting paid to fuss over...At least you don't go to jail for ignorantly using IE...Oh, wait - "A rogue program corrupts an internet link and gets a family man arrested over child pornography" ... "a so-called Trojan horse - that had infected his PC, probably during innocent internet surfing."
I took that statement as informational, not critical. Sure, Firefox may be W3C perfection, but it may not be perfect for readers of their magazine. It still may be DAMN good... which it is.
And as penetration grows (that was fun to say, not sure why :-), more sites will fix their bugs.
Well, if you're open to a little third-party software, I've made some Proxomitron filters that let you use Gmail with Opera. See my page.
Of course, I wish Opera and Gmail worked straight out, but I'd say support for XMLHttpRequest (the major Gmail blocker) is coming...
I'm personally fed up with PC Magazine's Microsoft plaudits. Only Dvorak writes sometimes MS critics but the rest of the editorial staff is Windows fans.
I can see maxthon's business plan: 1) English 2) ???? 3) profit!
Join Team Mozilla #38050 Folding@home
Most likely, your site does not take this into account, so Opera use is likely higher.
Clever signature text goes here.
No kidding, read this.
--
Your GOD in 2004
Opera 7 handles dynamic content beautifully, though. If your online banking doesn't work, it is either blocking Opera completely, or it is probably using some outdated script which detects Opera and sends it broken code. This has got nothing to do with Opera's JS implementation, but with browser sniffing and sending crappy code to Opera, which is not Opera's fault at all.
As for Gmail, what does that have to do with JavaScript? Gmail blocks Opera doesn't it? There has been some talk about XMLHttpRequest, but that's hardly JavaScript. More like some non-standard DOM extension.
So your comment about "Opera's poor JavaScript implementation" is wrong. It has an excellent JS implementation. The problem is usually browser sniffing. You wouldn't believe how many sites detect Opera and send it broken code.
Clever signature text goes here.
Clever signature text goes here.
If you are thinking of some pages not working, then Firefox has the exact same problem, and it is usually caused by browser sniffing, not by JS problems in Opera.
Could you give me some specific examples where Opera "is a bit flaky on javascript"?
Clever signature text goes here.
But ultimately, it was just confusing, and you can do better with bookmarks/nicknames, notes or sessions.
Clever signature text goes here.
"When you use Opera regularly you get used to how fast it is and don't think twice about using back/forward all the time. With IE I want to gouge my eyes out because it resubmits forms, talks to the server, etc, and with FF it takes quite a bit longer."
I love this comment because it is exacly how I feel. Speed is addictive. No other browser comes close. I have MX700 mouse with built in forward/back buttons and I regularly click though multipages/second. I choke with frustration trying this on other browsers.
With the extensions, I think FF will win the features race, but Opera is the speek king.
Isn't there an Extension plug-in for Firefox that allows Active X? Of course, it's not recommended by the Firefox team, but it's there if needed. I might install it and try Windows Update.
Nevermind. I researched it on the Mozilla forums. Windows Update will not work with anything but IE, due to IE specific coding. There is a plugin for ActiveX though (coming soon for FF.9), so eventually some sites using ActiveX will be able to run in FF, but.... hopefully they all switch to open standard code, vs MS code.
Ok I checked, it is poor coding. On the car Make, it has a code block for if_ie and if_nav, there is no else, if it is neither of these it does nothing.
:-)
Nothing malicious from what I can tell, which almost seems to be what you are saying. It is not like they are serving broken code to Opera on purpose. I think only microsoft did that.
So why don't the Opera folks do real spoofing, that would seem to be a tenable solution. Heck I might buy Opera if it did this. But it is frustrating requiring another browser to get stuff done.
I guess to a certain extent they want Opera usage tracked, but I think that is somewhat irrelevant at this stage, when the majority of Opera complaints stems from its low compatability with many webpages. Who is at fault is not even the issue. If real spoofing gives more compatability then Opera market share would grow and more Opera users would buy it.
Thanks for the tip. I'm trying it out now. Like you said, it's exactly like CrazyBrowser, but with tons of improvements. Even the keyboard shortcuts are the same.. like alt-z to undo last tab closed. As far as I can tell Maxthon has every feature that CrazyBrowser, Opera and Firefox have. For those of us stuck in IE for at least some of the workday, this can at least make the experience tolerable.
Thanks. The Opera tip worked fine for me. Unfortunately, I tried the Mozilla Session Saver in Firefox 0.9.2 and now I am getting a application error when I start FireFox. I guess that warning that old plugins might be incompatible was the truth after all. I'm thinking I might be better off with a full Mozilla install anyway as I keep ending up installing like 18 plugins to get the desired functionality.
"Opera generally works with more sites than Firefox for my use."
Well care to show some examples of where Firefox doesn't work and Opera does?? I wonder how our experience could be so different.
I have been using both and my experience is that all of the sites that Opera failed at worked in Firefox. I have yet to see the reverse on even one page! Now, no doubt you can find a site coded by some opera zealot to block other browsers, but I would like to see the real page that works with Opera and not firefox.
And please no more whining about poor coding of web pages. The end user choosing the browser doesn't care why it doesn't work, just that it doesn't.
Just off the top of my head. These work with FF but not Opera:
My Bank and webbroker (Toronto Dominion)
My intranet at work.
www.trader.ca car searches.
Gmail.
And these are all significant to me.
No kidding... I set mine for 400 and I'm getting nearly "instantaneous" complete page draws and I barely miss the .15 of a second longer it takes! (I'm on a T1 at work)
I have shown you that most sites that don't work in Opera do so because they use browser sniffing and send Opera code which doesn't work properly - in any browser. But Opera is the only browser which gets it.
It is not about poor coding, it is about sites specifically blocking Opera.
Clever signature text goes here.
"The menus on Starbucks.com doesn't work in Firefox. But what difference does it make? I don't keep track of pages like these. I use Opera most of the time anyway."
Somewhere above you claimed FF fails on more pages than Opera, so it matters when you make such claims. I use both and Opera fails more because of the simple fact that Firefox essentially identifies as a Navigator version and most pages have support for IE and Navigator.
FTR: The startbuck page works exactly the same in Opera and FF. Unless you spoof. Spoof IE with either browser and then the menus start cascading.
"If anyone is whining here it's you. I have simply shown you that claiming that Opera has poor JS support is a load of rubbish."
I made that mistake buy using the info from the original article. I acknowledged it readily and immediately. Were you not paying attention. You would have to go back ten messages to find where I said someting about JS.
Since you have pointed out the true source of the problem. I have been arguing that opera requires true UA spoofing in order to get around the bad pages serving improper scripts to Opera. Regardless of a few zealots this will be happening for years to come so Opera needs a method for dealing with it.
Opera needs list based Spoofing.
Clever signature text goes here.
"Yeah, except Opera is identified as IE by default, and Firefox does not have any easy way to spoof the useragent string out of the box."
Let me get this straight. You are arguing against my call for better spoofing features in Opera. And the one site you show as having a problem in Firefox, only works better in Opera because of spoofing. Ironic?
Or are you now agreeing with me that Spoofing is a good thing?
Bottom line Points.
1: There are thousands upon thousands of broken pages unacessable to opera because of browser sniffing.
2: This is not changing. I have contacted many and so have others. The web masters could care less. This is the world we must function in.
Now is where choice enters the picture.
A: Implement better spoofing to get other code served that may work.
B: use a different browser. Optionally complaining for the sake of complaining because it certainly change nothing.
Now doing A will win Opera more converts. If as list based implementation will not cost page counts.
Doing B, will limit growth and even cause defections to browsers that now offer the features of Opera without as many incompatability Woes.
Naturally you favor complain to all the web page admins of the world regardless of the futility. I favor recognizing the futiliy and improving Opera. But I will also soon recognize that futility and switch to Firefox.
For years I have been a fan, and have tried to influence many to use Opera (I think I only succeded with 2 people), but I may bail on it soon and I will tell those two of my change....
Anyway this dead horse is well and truley beaten.
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