Looking Ahead to Tiger, Powerbook G5s

sebFlyte writes "ZDNet is running a preview of Apple's newest version of OSX, Tiger, after Jobs said it was still on track for a q2 2005 release (long before Longhorn...)." And an anonymous reader writes "The Register is reporting that Powerbook G5s will ship in Q2 2005."

Comments

In other news...

[I am the Bullgod]

...Apple sues the Register for ruining another one of Steve's keynotes.

Too hot?

[LordNokia]

Supposedly a G5 was too hot to put into a small form factor, like a laptop or the miniMac. Does anyone know how they overcame the heat factor?

Re:Too hot?

[Ironsides]

New technology for the silicon, Underclocking to reduce power consumption, a couple other things can be done... I have no idea which they are using, but it is possible. Look at the Pentium M or centrino for an example.

Re:Too hot?

[Xpilot]

Easy, just have marketing gussy it up as a "feature", not a bug.

Powerbook G5! Not only does it have a 64-bit CPU, it makes you fried eggs and barbequed sausages for breakfast! Automatically!

Re:Too hot?

[TheKidWho]

It could be that they are using the new freescale dual core G4 chipsets with on die memory controllers and 1mb L2 cache. They are supposed to be really really good with power consumption too.

Re:Too hot?

[MajorDick]

Yeah or TOASTED NUTS , depending on where you actually use your laptop....

Chestnuts roasing on an open fire.....

But seriously I Hold my laptop on my legs (away from my nuts) but now Ive got an 802 preN Even that make me nervous I swear I feel em tingling only when the card is active, my wife says it because Ive got balls of steel and its the RF Interferance, maybe true but how long before the get roasted my em radiation....

Re:Too hot?

[TheRaven64]

It could be that DigiTimes (The Register's source) is up to its up to its usual trick of reporting random speculation dressed as news (their article is slashdotted at them moment, so I can't tell what they are actually saying), and El Reg has just blown it out of proportion. I'd be more inclined to trust the report if it came from ThinkSecret, or someone else who has a reputation for reliability slightly greater than DigiTimes.

Re:Too hot?

[Tombstone-f]

Realistically, it's not too hot to be put into a laptop. It's just too hot to be put into a laptop as thin as the powerbook.

Re:Too hot?

[SilentChris]

It'll also act as a birth control device if you leave it on your lap too long. Some people might be into that.

Re:Too hot?

[White Roses]

I dunno, the new iMac looks to be pretty "small form factor." Yes, I am aware it's not a laptop. And yes, I am aware that it's using a lot of convection cooling which is impractical for a laptop. But, I am also aware that this is Apple we're talking about.

How can [William Shatner] do a spoken word version of a rap song?

He found a way.

Re:Too hot?

[Anonymous Coward]

One data point: Apple employees get an email about once a quarter with things they can buy at a discount - informally called "qpromo". The current qpromo is selling off all sizes of Powerbooks. Generally, qpromo is used to sell off something that's about to be upgraded or revved. For example, I bought my 15" titanium Powerbook through qpromo, and a month or two later they brought out a titanium Powerbook with a higher screen resolution and a faster processor. The next time titanium Powerbooks appeared on qpromo was just before it was replaced by the aluminium 15" Powerbook. The presence of all sizes of Powerbooks in qpromo hints strongly at either a speed rev or a totally new processor.

Re:Too hot?

[TheKidWho]

G5m laptops :-D

Re:Too hot?

[afidel]

PPC970FX dissipates only 39W max, 24.5W typical, well within what is acceptable for a laptop. Heck the Pentium M at 1.5 Ghz and above dissipates 21W typical with no max given by the Intel spec sheet. Now the PPC975 will NOT be used in a laptop, way too high a thermal load. I see no obvious reason that Apple couldn't make a G5 based laptop.

Re:Too hot?

[hackstraw]

Look at the Pentium M or centrino for an example

Centrino is an Intel marketing term for "a bunch of cool mobile stuff" to include the Pentium M processor as well as wireless and other junk.

My hat's off to IBM and Apple (I still think this is an extreeemly ironic partnership) if they can do a G5 notebook. Every time I walk past the back of my coworkers dual G5 while it is idle and the fans are at a low RPM I feel the heat.

Re:Too hot?

[Psykechan]

I'll believe that there are G5 PowerBooks when I see a damn "Free G5 PowerBooks!" ad-scam link in someone's sig.

Re:Too hot?

[GFLPraxis]

I don't know if this is true. Even the register says, "So CLAIMS". I never expected them to ship a PowerBook G5. It's MUCH more likely that they're get the new 25w dual core G4 processors Motorola is almost done with. Dual core 1.5 GHz running at 15-25w power consumption. That's awesome. http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/display.j sp?nodeId=093623&filePath=/media_center/news_relea ses/2004/ncsg/09-28-04_DUALPROC.htm&title=News%20R elease Plus it's capable of scaling up to 2 GHz (read on another page at the freescale site), and they plan to eventually add 64-bit extensions. AND they have a single-core version that runs at 10w. I would MUCH rather see these in a PowerBook. A dual 1.5 17-inch PowerBook would be sweet.

Re:Too hot?

[clarkcox3]

New PowerBook feature: "iBirth Control"

Re:Too hot?

[mesach]

They said 1 if by Keynote, 2 if by website!

The Rumors are coming! The Rumors are coming!!!!!

Re:Too hot?

[xutopia]

the difference between laptops using the Pentium M and Powerbooks is the size. In a smaller casing a few watts can make a huge difference.

Re:Too hot?

[afidel]

Huh? Sony VAIO S series has 10% less volume than the 15" Powerbook G4 and uses a 1.7Ghz Pentium M. I'll state again that there isn't any obvious technical hurdle in making a PPC970fx based laptop.

Re:Too hot?

[BioCS.Nerd]

I've been thinking about whether or not it'd be better to see a dual core G4 or a G5 in PowerBooks. Assuming both could be done with similar heat situations comparable to today's G4 notebooks, which would you rather see?

IMHO, I think I'd rather have the dual core chip. As much as I'd like to see a 64bit chip in a PowerBook, I think a dual core is more likely to be advantageous in the near future as per the MHz wall that the processor industry has hit and how this will affect how we all write software (see this article on the use of concurrency in software design).

Does anyone else have thoughts on this? If it was up to you, what would you put in the next PowerBook: A G5, or dual core G4?

Re:Too hot?

[Cmdr-Absurd]

By putting a G4 rather than a G5 in the mini. So the answer is "they didn't."

Re:Too hot?

[brasten]

The new PowerBook G5s will have NO DISPLAY! That will allow Apple more case room to cool the processor, and give users the PLEASURE of truely RANDOM computing!

Just sync it to your desktop... it will automatically copy over the files you use the most!

Re:Too hot?

[beegle]

Your sig mentions worrying about moderators who mark things "overrated". I have to admit that I've done it sometimes because there's no "just plain wrong" or "clearly living on another planet" tag.

I'm not talking about "I disagree", I'm talking about posts that claim things that plainly aren't true, like "Apple is -already- making G5 laptops." That stuff tends to percolate up because moderators look at it and say "Wow. I didn't know that." without realizing that they didn't know it because the poster is either misinformed or making it up.

(Mods: Yeah, I know. Off to "Offtopic" land for me.)

Re:Too hot?

[sysadmn]

Excessive use of any computer tends to act as a contraceptive. Wait, why am I bothering to tell Slashdot readers that?

Re:Too hot?

[quarkscat]

Besides underclocking, Apple could always
turn the G5 processor upside down, and
use the entire bottom of the case as the
heatsink.

Of course, Apple would also have to post
prominent warnings that their new G5
notebook IS NOT INTENDED for the lap!

Re:Too hot?

[Psykechan]

The Pentium M, which is one third of the Centrino (the other two being the 855 chipset and the wireless LAN) is based off of the Pentium III. Tom's Hardware has an interesting write-up here.

If you want an odd analogy, try this:

Apple (well, IBM) has two processor varients: the G4 and G5. Intel had two processor varients as well: the Pentium 4 and the Itanium. Its an over simplification, but bear with me as it's about to get a whole lot more weird.

Imagine if the Itanium was so popular that it was selling enough to where dell was starting to use it in their budget machines. The only systems that were still using the P4 were the laptops and other ultra-condensed systems because the Itanium put out too much heat.

Let's say that Intel put's out the Centrino (Pentium M/Banias/whatever) in this environment. The public that's been demanding an Itanium laptop would tear it apart. There would be cries of "This is a step backwards!" and "I ain't using no P3 laptop in this day and age". It would take a marketing miracle to get this to sell.

Apple and IBM know that when people want a G5 laptop, you don't try to sell them a G3, even if it is a very advanced G3 that's better in many ways than your G4.

Re:Too hot?

[Dr. Sigmund Freud]

...I swear I feel em tingling only when the card is active,..

Ummm...what did you expect? The card has to be active when you are surfing for pr0n.

Re:Too hot?

[default luser]

The new 970FX (.09nm) got Apple up from 2GHz to 2.5GHz...but the power consumption is actually more, as they require similar voltage.

What Apple doesn't advertise is, at speeds between 1.5 and 2.0 GHz, power consumption has been greatly reduced due to a much lower voltage. Desktop 970FX users already get these benefits through dynamic voltage and frequency at idle or low load, just like the Athlon64.

It's still gonna suck up the juice, though, compared to the lower speed Pentium M or G4.

Re:Too hot?

[supabeast!]

Joke all you want, anyone who has used a 12" G4 Powerbook knows that you probably could cook on the palmrests. I went to a store to buy one, but tried it out a little on the advice of a sales nerd, and I'm glad he convinced me to rethink the decision - it was painfully hot.

Re:Too hot?

[Lally Singh]

That was called the "PowerBook G4 Titanium"

Re:Too hot?

[stevejobsjr]

Didn't you hear? Apple is already making a PowerBook G5. And a tabletMac. And an iPhone. And dual-processor PowerBooks. And iPod video.

Re:Too hot?

[ZiZ]

Well, "ad", yes, "scam", no. But that's an interesting point - Gratis Internet was setting up to roll out their new Mac Mini and iPod Shuffle sites a few days before the keynote, though they didn't know the actual product name yet...

Re:Too hot?

[stephentyrone]

depends. does this hypothetical dual core G4 still have the horribly small G4 front-side bus? 'cause if so, the G5 is gonna pants it for all but a few apps.

Re:Too hot?

[monkeyseemonkeydoo]

They didn't. The rumor about a PB g5 in q2 of 2005 is some BS put out there by sources that will never be able to back up their so-called findings.

Re:Too hot?

[vought]

Give the AC a prize. S/he's completely right.

Re:Too hot?

[jbarlow]

Apple's already familiar with this marketing technique, actually. They used it on the iPod Shuffle. You see, not being able to see what's playing or to choose the song you hear next isn't a bad thing. It's a feature!

Re:Too hot?

[White Roses]

I've got it as well. But I wasn't referring to "The Transformed Man." I was actually referring to an episode of Futurama, where Shatner, parodying himself, is doing a spoken word version of The Real Slim Shady (by Eminem if it matters). Then, Walter Koenig, sitting in the audience and forced to listen to this travesty, says, "How can you do a spoken word version of a rap song?" To which Melllvar, their captor (yes, three l's) ruefully replies, "He found a way."

I think Apple will find a way.

Tiger

[Sophrosyne]

I didn't hear Jobs announce a q2 release- he just said the first half of 2005.... not a very solid release date and could perhaps mean sometime this summer.

Re:Tiger

[eric_n_dfw]

What's your point? The end of the 1st half of 2005 and the end of q2 are the same date.

Re:Tiger

[Sophrosyne]

it could also be released tomorrow.

Re:Tiger

[pohl]

The tacit industry standard for this sort of thing seems to be that the date implied by a half or quarter is the last day in that period of time. In this context, "q2 2005" is just a rephasing of "first half of 2005", because they imply the same date. Moreover, that date would probably be the end of June...so you're right it would probably mean sometime this summer.

Re:Tiger

[eric_n_dfw]

Yes. True. (And wouln't that rock!)

But based on the bugs Jobs ran into during his demo I doubt it will be any time in q1.

I was wondering what you meant by "this summer".

Re:Tiger

[TylerL82]

Apple's Fiscal First Half of 2005 is already half over (Apple started FY2005Q2 on December 27th).

So, if we're going by fiscal year, late-March seems likely.

Re:Tiger

[sg3000]

> not a very solid release date and could perhaps mean
> sometime this summer.

Foolish consumer! Here's how Marketing dates work.

Summer 2005 means this: Sept 20, 2005, technically the last day of summer.

1H2005 means this: on June 30, 2005 at 11:59 PM, a single person somewhere in Iowa will get a copy of Tiger. All other copies will be "on backorder" or "shipping" which will arrive in September.

He might even get a stuffed tiger doll with an Apple logo on it in lieu of a copy of the software package. "Oh, yeah, we shipped Tiger to our first customer."

Or, they might rename the local high school's marathon track to "10.4", and force that person to do laps on the track on Sept 20. "Oh yes. Our first customer is running 10.4. No doubt about it."

This reminds me of an urban legend at a company I worked for. We had to ship some equipment out to a customer to make revenue at the end of the quarter. The customer wanted to make sure we quality checked it first. So they had someone physically pick up the hardware cards and dash through the Quality department's lab before sending it to the loading dock. The salesperson was then able to say, with a straight face and minimal snickering, "We ran the hardware through Quality before we shipped it."

Re:Tiger

[varmittang]

The usually drop hints during the keynotes for when the next release of a major product will come. Like for the iMac, the keynote by jobs before it he looked up Paris and iMac stuff during the keynote. Look for these signs and you will know what is coming next. WWDC is most likely when Tiger will get released. Which is about the end of the 2Q I believe.

Re:Tiger

[capmilk]

An early release of Tiger would definately rock, since that could mean it would be usable by the beginning of autumn. When it reaches 10.4.3 it should be ready.

Re:Tiger

[dirty]

June. It will come out in June, just barely 1st half of '05. I base this on a prediction I pulled from my ass.

Re:Tiger

[Hachey]

for more information, see The Apple Product Cycle. i certainly think i understand much more about the inner workings of Apple for this.

Re:Tiger

[Moofie]

"The salesperson was then able to say, with a straight face and minimal snickering, "We ran the hardware through Quality before we shipped it.""

Do you think that made the salesperson not a liar?

Re:Tiger

[Fahrenheit 450]

Aw hell... Tiger's already shipping for the low, low price of $500.

I actually thought about doing this for a while. I really want to play with the Spotlight API... Just not $500 worth of want.

Re:Tiger

[Anonymous Coward]

Summer 2005 means this: Sept 20, 2005, technically the last day of summer.

You're right, that is so technical. Hug me, you big, big geek!

I swear that if I ever hear someone describing September 20th as the last day of summer (technically or otherwise), I will find you, come to your house and FUCKING END YOU.

There. That's much better.

Re:Tiger

[mabinogi]

They still have to make the CDs and get them into distribution.
They don't offer it as a download (do they?)...

Re:Tiger

[aduzik]

1H2005 means this: on June 30, 2005 at 11:59 PM, a single person somewhere in Iowa will get a copy of Tiger.

Oooh! I am a single person somewhere in Iowa! Maybe it will be me!

Mod me down if you must, but I have to know...

[gandell]

Will Tiger run on the new Mac mini?

Re:Mod me down if you must, but I have to know...

[Psykechan]

Not having a Mac Mini or Tiger to test with, I can answer with an unsubstantiated yes!

Re:Mod me down if you must, but I have to know...

[gandell]

Sorry, I should have taken longer with that question. My real question was this: "Will Tiger run WELL on the mini, given that the video memory is on board? And if so, what does this say for Longhorn's improved look requiring lots of video horsepower?"

Re:Mod me down if you must, but I have to know...

[garcia]

Well, as much as I would enjoy a Mac mini, from what I see they are pricey for a decent amount of RAM (add $425 for 1GB), they don't exactly have a blazing processor, and they will likely act sluggish if the touted features of Tiger are actually as power/graphics hungry as the ZDNet article kinda mentions...

Re:Mod me down if you must, but I have to know...

[moongha]

It doesn't have onboard video.

specs

Re:Mod me down if you must, but I have to know...

[TylerL82]

It will run just as well, if not better, than Panther runs on it right now.
Hardware T&L or not, Tiger has many many optimizations for all hardware.

Re:Mod me down if you must, but I have to know...

[jxyama]

yes it wil "run". will mini be able to run all the features of tiger? probably not.

you can "officially" run panther on any mac with a usb port. that doesn't mean an old machines can run quartz extreme.

Re:Mod me down if you must, but I have to know...

[gandell]

Ah. Thank you...I misunderstood. Never mind.

Re:Mod me down if you must, but I have to know...

[Bricklets]

Mac mini has a ATI Radeon 9200 card with 32MB video RAM. Not a great card, but not too shabby. Plus Apple does a really good job at making things look really pretty with even the most minimal hardware. OSX has historially run better/faster on the same hardware each new release. So I'd expect Tiger to run even better on Mac Mini than Panther (the current default OS). Strange I know, but Apple is a strange company.

Re:Mod me down if you must, but I have to know...

[bloodstains]

The article refers to Tiger as a 64 bit system. The G4 is a 32 bit Processor...no?

Re:Mod me down if you must, but I have to know...

[HeghmoH]

Every single version of Mac OS X has run faster than the previous version on identical hardware. If you had some old iBook that barely managed with the Public Beta, it got marginally better with 10.0, was usable with 10.1, was decent with 10.2, and is now pretty good with 10.3. There's no reason to expect this trend to stop. Yes, Tiger will take advantage of high-end video hardware more than any previous version of Mac OS X, but it will probably also be quite a bit faster than Panther even on low-end hardware.

Re:Mod me down if you must, but I have to know...

[jcostantino]

I ran a pre-release copy of Tiger on my dual 867 G4 with 1 gb of memory and a GeForce 4mx, even though it was buggy as all hell (this was five months ago), it ran fast on my outdated hardware.

Re:Mod me down if you must, but I have to know...

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

hey don't exactly have a blazing processor, and they will likely act sluggish if the touted features of Tiger are actually as power/graphics hungry as the ZDNet article kinda mentions

I suspect it will run Tiger better than it does Panther. Every OS X release since the beta has run faster, not slower. In one case new features were added that required a minimum amount of video RAM to be functional. The system still runs better than it did with the old version, just some of the pretty graphics are toned down. Basically what I am trying to say is, yes it will almost certainly run tiger, yes tiger will run better than panther, and maybe you will be able to run all of the new features.

Re:Mod me down if you must, but I have to know...

[Anonymous Coward]

G5 is 64-bit. Probably they have a 32-bit compat. mode in Tiger.

Re:Mod me down if you must, but I have to know...

[Tibor the Hun]

Make no mistake about it, a 1.4 GHz G4 is by no means a sluggish CPU.
Perhaps it can't crunch numbers as fast as its more powerful bretheren, but that's not what it's designed to do. (G5s and XServes are)

I have a 1.4 G4 at home which runs on a 100MHz bus (The new ones are at 133 I believe) and from a user perspective its a lot more snappier than my 3.x Intel (w/XP SP2) at work. It handles Photoshop CS, iPhoto (with 6000 pics), iTunes (6GB library) (all at the same time) just fine. (It's also running a webserver)

While they are pricey RAM wise, I don't think Tiger performance will suffer due to the CPU.
(I've actually had a pre-release running on mine, and spotlight ran just fine)

Re:Mod me down if you must, but I have to know...

[chiph]

Crucial is selling 1gb for the mini at $265 with free shipping. Just use their memory configurator and they guarantee compatibility.

The trick is going to be opening the case on the mini -- it has about 15 little plastic fingers that need to be released.

Chip H.

Re:Mod me down if you must, but I have to know...

[goMac2500]

Tiger will run on anything with a Firewire port, so yes.

Re:Mod me down if you must, but I have to know...

[numbski]

Heh. Now compare that with Windows or Linux and same hardware. ;)

*ducks*

Re:Mod me down if you must, but I have to know...

[Psykechan]

Yes it does. It has: "ATI Radeon 9200 with 32MB of DDR SDRAM with AGP 4X support" ...which is almost certainly built onto the main board. Since the specs seem so comparible to the iBook, I'm even wondering if that isn't a Radeon Mobility.

You're probably thinking of an onboard display.

Re:Mod me down if you must, but I have to know...

[TomorrowPlusX]

Tiger will only be graphics intensive for machines which CoreImage supports -- and then obviously it will be a non-issue.

If you watch any of the tiger developer conference stuff from back in july (?) you'll see that Apple has done some serious optimization work for *all* Quartz graphics paths -- not just CoreImage. Stuff like bezier paths and text rendering being orders of magnitude faster even for software rendering.

Apple is not stupid. Every release of OS X has been significantly faster than the previous. This may or may not continue to be the case in the future but it's pretty clear that it will be for Tiger at least.

Anecdote: I installed Panther on my mother's Cube ( I think 450 Mhz G4, craptacular video card). It had run OS 9 beautifully, very responsive, but 10.1 was SLOOW and 10.2, while a big improvement over 10.1, was still pretty pokey. Well, 10.3 bought responsiveness back to OS 9 levels. In fact, her Cube running 10.3 was faster and more responsive than my powerbook ( 866 Mhz G4, GF4MZ video ) running 10.2.

Anyway, just saying.

Re:Mod me down if you must, but I have to know...

[Creepy]

I can see why - gcc on ppc was poorly optimized and all rendering was done in software. Apple and the ppc linux folk have made progress in optimizing gcc for PPC and Apple has been offloading more and more of the graphics responsibilities to hardware. Then there's taking the NeXT code and targeting a specific CPU set, rather than a general CPU set like in the past.

Re:Mod me down if you must, but I have to know...

[Xugumad]

I have to say, I use a 1.5Ghz PowerBook with 512mb RAM, and it's wonderfully fast. Sure, I wouldn't want to run seriously CPU intensive stuff on it (Doom 3 springs to mind), but for web, e-mail, text editing, music/movie playing etc. I can't tell the difference between it and my Athlon64 3200+ Linux box at home. Startup times are a little longer because of the slower HD, but that's about it.

People are too used to PC requirements. In particular, as someone else pointed out, OS X has been getting progressively faster with each release, not slower.

Re:Mod me down if you must, but I have to know...

[Leo McGarry]

Um. Nobody buys Apple RAM. You buy the 1 GB RAM stick from somebody like Other World for $190 and either install it yourself if you're savvy, or take it to your local Apple Store for them to put in for you if you're not.

Every time Apple ships a machine, folks come crawling out of the woodwork to complain that (1) 256 MB isn't enough and (2) Apple's RAM is too expensive. It's like they're unaware of third-party RAM or something.

Re:Mod me down if you must, but I have to know...

[Leo McGarry]

$265? Screw that. Other World has 1 GB sticks of PC2700 for $190. I've bought RAM and other things from them many times and have never had a complaint.

Re:Mod me down if you must, but I have to know...

[Leo McGarry]

Quartz Extreme isn't something you run. It's a feature of the OS to offload some processing of 2D graphics to the GPU. Your Mac works exactly the same whether it supports Quartz Extreme or not. It's just that it's less CPU-intensive with Quartz Extreme.

Re:Mod me down if you must, but I have to know...

[Xugumad]

I would be amazed if it doesn't. In particular, this would leave Apple having to pull out a new Mac Mini for the new OS, and alienate the large number of PC switchers they'll probably get (those people that thought "Hey, iPods rock, maybe their computers do to").

Personally, I'm getting a Mac Mini for my father (how do you explain to someone when you should and shouldn't click on attachments e-mailed by someone you know? Getting a system that won't have this problem, and which I can actually help him fix, seems a better plan), and will get one for myself once they ship with Tiger.

Re:Mod me down if you must, but I have to know...

[jxyama]

you are right, i should have said "take advantage of" instead of "run"

Re:Mod me down if you must, but I have to know...

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a pre-release version of Tiger (no, you can't have it, my lawyer isn't tougher than Steve's) that's working quite well on a 4-year-old 500Mhz G4. Spotlight and Dashboard are both quite peppy. The mini is a whole lot faster than that old G4. How many 4-year-old x86's can run Longwait, er, Longhorn?

Re:Mod me down if you must, but I have to know...

[podperson]

Based on Apple's previous record of backwards compatibility (e.g. 10.3 installs on quite a lot of Macs that predate 10.0), I feel safe in saying yes.

More importantly, will all the functionality of Tiger, e.g. CoreGraphics, works on a Mac Mini -- I'm guessing that one factor in choosing the 9200 was that it should at least let CoreGraphics run, if not especially fast.

FYI: CoreGraphics is a graphics library that transparently allows GPU acceleration of common image filtering functions (e.g. using pixel shaders to do gaussian blur).

Re:Mod me down if you must, but I have to know...

[jsebrech]

Mac mini has a ATI Radeon 9200 card with 32MB video RAM. Not a great card, but not too shabby. Plus Apple does a really good job at making things look really pretty with even the most minimal hardware. OSX has historially run better/faster on the same hardware each new release. So I'd expect Tiger to run even better on Mac Mini than Panther (the current default OS).

From what I've read, the 9200 doesn't support shaders 2.0, so coreimage won't be able to use it for acceleration, thereby assuring you'll miss out on a lot of the graphical goodness that tiger is supposed to bring. Ofcourse, you'll likely still have a faster and better looking system, so I'm not arguing with that, just saying that there won't be that much visual improvement from going to tiger on a mac mini.

I'm still buying a mini though. I don't care that much about how flashy the gui effects are.

Incidentally, longhorn will require a shaders 2.0 card too for the graphical tricks, and likely when X.org gets support for that kind of gui acceleration, they'll have the same minimum requirement.

Re:Mod me down if you must, but I have to know...

[Moofie]

My favorite part is the old saw:

apple n00b: "Apples aren't upgradeable!"
me: "What are you talking about? You open the case, put in the upgrade (ram processor whatever), close the case, turn it on, and it works."
apple n00b: "Open the case? What are you talking about? I don't want to open the CASE! That's SCARY!"
me: "So you're worried about upgrading your computer...why exactly?"

Re:Mod me down if you must, but I have to know...

[shotfeel]

That's one of the things I really like about OS X as its matured along with the hardware.

If you're running it on a old G3, it runs well.

If you're running it on a G4, many functions will be off-loaded to the vector processor to increase performance.

If you've got a video card that meets the minimum requirements, many operations will be off-loaded to the graphics card (Quartz Extreme).

Now there's the possibility of even more stuff being offloaded to the video card it it meets a higher set of requirements.

IMO, Apple has done a pretty good job of taking full advantage of increased hardware capabilities, without making the new hardware a requirement.

Re:Mod me down if you must, but I have to know...

[DeadScreenSky]

Just FYI, it is actually just a Radeon 9200 chipset with RAM. Calling it a graphics card implies it could be upgraded, which is sadly not the case (though understandable when the case is only a couple inches tall!).

And it is pretty shabby. Especially since this variant has a quarter of the RAM that the standard 9200 cards have (running well under $40 retail), which also go up to a possible 256 MB.

Re:Mod me down if you must, but I have to know...

[cthulhu11]

Come, now. Any video chip/card made in the last five years (and probably more) is way WAY more than anyone except twelve-year-old game jockeys needs, and they don't buy Macs -- they build their own goofy x86 boxes with neon kits and lowering springs.

Re:Mod me down if you must, but I have to know...

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

...and they will likely act sluggish if the touted features of Tiger are actually as power/graphics hungry as the ZDNet article kinda mentions...

Someone had better tell Apple! They must have forgotten to make sure that their own latest hardware can run their latest software!

And of course. Surely if you are smart enough to know that ordering RAM from the Apple store is a rip-off, then you are smart enough to find a solution to that problem.

Re:Mod me down if you must, but I have to know...

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

My Matrox G450 is quite old now. It has 32MBs of RAM. It can drive 2 monitors at much heigher resolutions than the max stated in the Mac mini specs. It sure does suck for the latest games, but it's otherwise more than adequate.

32MBs will be perfectly fine for the Mac mini.

Re:Mod me down if you must, but I have to know...

[jtrascap]

> If you've got a video card that meets the minimum requirements, many operations
> will be off-loaded to the graphics card (Quartz Extreme).

Ah - well, got a list of the minimum hardware requirements? The Apple Core Image page no longer shows what hardware will work.

Re:Mod me down if you must, but I have to know...

[DeadScreenSky]

It would be really hard to find a semi-new video card that can't do good desktop 2D (though obviously the Matroxes probably have the best visual fidelity). Radeon's are designed and sold for 3D usage, and the 9200 is a shabby example of one (it was upon release, too). It's not that the card won't work, it is just not the kind of card you advertise having.

Will this be the default OS...

[MonoSynth]

...of the Mac Mini's that are produced after Q2 2005? Or will it only run on G5 hardware?

Re:Will this be the default OS...

[LordNokia]

Supposedly, G4's will be supported. I mean, I just got this shiny new iBook under warrantee replacement... and if it's already outdated, well, my lockpick set will mysteriously find a way to break off some... *essential parts*

Re:Will this be the default OS...

[Sophrosyne]

I have heard Tiger will run on g3 600mhz and up.

Re:Will this be the default OS...

[stang7423]

Tiger will run on G3 - G5. There were still iBooks shipping less than 2 years ago that still had G3 processors. Apple's window for supported machines is normaly about 4 - 5 years so I would find it hard to believe that apple would leave those G3 and G4 out in the cold.. Not to mention that only like 10% of Mac owners have a G5.

Oh wait was this a troll. Damn I bit...

Re:Will this be the default OS...

[MonoSynth]

it wasn't a troll :). I'm not very familiar with Apple's policies. It could be that they design an OS only for their current and future computers, but I'm glad to see that they also support older hardware.

Re:Will this be the default OS...

[Johnny Mnemonic]

DVD player may be required, however.

Re:Will this be the default OS...

[displaced80]

I've mentioned this before, so apologies to anyone who's had their eye on my previous posts...

I use OS X (10.3.[whatever is is now]) on a 3 year old iMac G3 500MHz. It's not going to win any benchmarks, but some of the design choices in OS X help alleviate things on underpowered hardware.

Key recommendation: Put as much RAM in as you can. Here's why...

OS X (like its predecessors) allows a distinction between the application and the application's windows. Opening a program will usually also open a window (e.g. Mail will open up a window with the usual mailboxes, messages, preview). But close the window and Mail stays open -- the only indication of which is a small triangle under Mail's dock icon.

The benefit of this is with enough RAM, you only launch your apps once. I don't know about others, but one of the ways I can tell a slow PC from a fast one (other than launching Half Life 2) is how quick programs open and become usable. And that's an important metric for Windows, because finishing a task almost always means quitting the application too. Sure, there's minimizing and system tray icons, but that's a halfway-house solution that doesn't scale well (taskbars are only so wide!).

With OS X's approach, your commonly-used apps are always available after loading them just the once. If I've finished reading mail, I close the Mail window, but the app stays open. If click the mail icon again, the app doesn't need to reload, and all its caches, etc. are still intact. It just needs to draw me a window and I'm right back to where I want to be.

The OS X dock has got its critics, and there's certainly changes I'd make to it if I had the chance. But it is very suited to the Mac's document-centric approach. It's an application launcher, running task, and notification area all in the one chunk of screen real-estate. The icon I use to launch an app is also the one I use to activate the app if I've closed/minimized a window. That same icon's also a status area (see Mail's 'unread message count' dock icon 'badge'). And I can control an app from that icon too (iTunes's playback control options in the dock icon's context menu, options to quit or hide the app, etc).

So my Mac's technologically ancient by modern PC standards. Yet it refuses to stop being usable. If I ask it to do some serious work (video compression, whatever), then sure, the lack of power shows. But even then it stays pretty responsive if I start using something else.

I also saw a very significant speed increase from 10.1 to 10.2 on the same hardware. 10.3 brought a noticeable improvement over 10.2. Whilst the opportunities for optimisation are probably getting smaller, I can be pretty sure that Tiger (10.4) will bring some improvements -- in workflow, if not raw speed -- and will scale well to my machine's capability.

(but it'll be much nicer on the Mac Mini I've ordered!)

Re:Question

[Sophrosyne]

You don't have to pay for updates to the OS- but each major revision like OS X 10.3, OS X 10.4 costs $129.00.
They keep you up-to-date with the version of the OS your computer comes with.

Preview?

[barzok]

That's barely long enough to count as a press release!

Re:Preview?

[KillerDeathRobot]

Seriously, it was a totally worthless piece of journalism.

Both iBook and PowerBook G5?

[jvmatthe]

I don't see how Apple could make both iBook and PowerBooks based on the G5 at the same time. The processor speed and type have traditionally separated the upper and lower end Apple hardware products, right, with the lower end product always lagging to give the upper end the premium (and margin) that Apple wants?

What could they add to a PowerBook, other than a processor speed bump, that would make it worth the premium price if the iBook has the same class of processor in it?

Re:Both iBook and PowerBook G5?

[eric_n_dfw]

screen resolution/shape
dual monitor (spanning) support
DVI video out
Bus/Chip speed
RAM Slots
Software bundle (i.e. Tony Hawk vs. Quickbooks)

Re:Both iBook and PowerBook G5?

[afidel]

PPC970FX dissipates only 39W max, 24.5W typical, well within what is acceptable for a laptop. Heck the Pentium M at 1.5 Ghz and above dissipates 21W typical with no max given by the Intel spec sheet.

Re:Both iBook and PowerBook G5?

[__aafutm5472]

Well, right now the iBook and PowerBook have the same processor family. What seperates them now?

Re:Both iBook and PowerBook G5?

[AssFace]

PowerBooks have larger screens, more memory available, and better graphics cards for starters.

Re:Both iBook and PowerBook G5?

[blackmonday]

The iBook and Powerbook *do* currently have the same class processor (G4). Powerbook has: Audio line-in, much better screen resolution, faster bus speed, backlit keyboard (not on the 12 incher though), internal bluetooth, firewire 800, etc. iBook is 1024 X 768 video and lacks a lot of nice features, but it's still a great laptop if you don't need all the bells and whistles.

Re:Both iBook and PowerBook G5?

[Moofie]

Yeah, my 12" PowerBook's screen is WAY bigger than that 12" iBook.

oh wait.

The G4 iBooks are incredibly good deals. Had I waited six months, I'd have bought one of those instead of the Powerbook. However, since I've had the pleasure of using my Powerbook for six months, I count it a fair trade. (I also got a smokin' deal on the Powerbook.)

Re:Both iBook and PowerBook G5?

[mdarksbane]

I'm sure they *could* fit it into a laptop, but could they fit into the aluminum powerbook?

No one would buy a G5 laptop if it had the form factor and battery life of an alienware.

Re:Both iBook and PowerBook G5?

[Senjutsu]

Apple's draw with the powerbooks and iBooks has always been form factor and battery life. 39W max dissipation might be acceptable in one of those space-heating monster laptops that gets 90 minutes off a charge, but it's not going to fly with Apple.

Re:Both iBook and PowerBook G5?

[afidel]

Monster? The Sony VAIO S series is 10% less volume and runs the 1.7Ghz Pentium M, which is pretty much equivilant to a same speed PPC970fx. It gets up to 6.5 hours on a charge depending on power settings and use, which is about the same as a PB G4 15". Quite making excuses for Apple, they really need to refresh their laptop lineup.

Re:Both iBook and PowerBook G5?

[Moofie]

My 12" Powerbook has a 12" diagonal screen, exactly the same width and resolution as the iBook.

Your friend has a 15" Powerbook, I bet.

Re:Both iBook and PowerBook G5?

[redshield3]

actually there's a hack to enable spanning on the iBook. I did, it kicks ass.

I've got the cash...

[nighty5]

It's a waiting game.

I'm prepared to wait for the next batch of Power book to come along before I part with $AUD4,000 for a 15" PB.

The iBook's were refreshed some time ago so hopefully it won't be too long now.

I can't wait to say goodbye to my shitty overheated Dell D600 - avoid them at all costs. The harddrives geneated too much heat (your hand gets really hot), AND at my work we have at least replaced 30 batteries out of 300 units.

Re:I've got the cash...

[Tibor the Hun]

Dude, this is /. You don't have to tell us to avoid shitty Dells.
Out of curiosity, how long does it run on battery power?

Re:I've got the cash...

[crass751]

My company issued me a D600, I pull about 4-5 hours on battery. It's actually not a bad machine. I haven't had problems with it, yet.

Re:I've got the cash...

[Tibor the Hun]

Damn, that's pretty good. I had a custom built AMD 15" laptop, and it only had 90 minutes of battery life.

A recent 12" iBook I got for my parents gets over 3 hours of active use, so I was pretty happy about that.

4-5 hours on a single battery is really good.

Re:I've got the cash...

[Dalroth]

FYI, my iBook G4 gets really hot too. There are times when I have to put a blanket or a book in between the computer and my legs. Alas, I do not expect a G5 laptop to run any cooler.

That is my #1 biggest complaint about ALL laptops. The heat dissipation sucks in every single one I've used (Dell, HP, IBM, and now Apple).

If you want a bleeding edge powerful laptop, it's not going to run cool. I'm learning to accept that fact.

There's a reason why marketing departments don't call them laptops anymore. :)

Bryan

Re:I've got the cash...

[hcdejong]

Enjoy it while it lasts. My D600 is down to less than 2 hours. It's about a year old.

Re:I've got the cash...

[Xugumad]

I have to say here, if you want a cool laptop, why are you waiting for a G5? I've got a 1.5Ghz 15" G4 PowerBook as my desktop replacement, and it rocks, but it's about as hot as I'm comfortable with. Do you genuinely do anything that requires processing power with your laptops, or do you just want the latest thing? Unless you're going to use that CPU grunt, I'd really recommend getting a 1.33Ghz or 1.5Ghz PowerBook.

Re:I've got the cash...

[Rude Turnip]

I have a 12" iBook, too. Here's a free tip: If you're just reading and not listing to any music, put the volume down and the battery life will be longer. For whatever reason, even if there is no sound playing, my battery life goes up when I put the volume down. Also, if you're in a decently lit room, the iBook display is perfectly readable at 3-4 "brightness units" above the lowest brightness setting.

Doing this gets me about 4-5 hours at a time.

Re:I've got the cash...

[harikiri]

My powerbook's HDD has got a problem, and it's going to cost at least $AUD 450 or so to get a replacement 40GB hdd + service.

For the meantime I've been told that I can install OS X onto a firewire drive, and boot off that. Oh well, I'll lose the portability but at least it won't be dead.

However, using Eclipse on a 12" powerbook running at 1024x768 resolution can feel a little constricting, so I too am looking out for a 15" to upgrade to. The fact that they wont be coming out for a little while gives me an opportunity to save up for it.

Re:I've got the cash...

[xjerky]

Plus, let's say you're downloading a few files with Safari - that damn stobing bar actually eats up a good chunk of CPU - if you Hide your Safari window (Command-H) the machine doesn't waste time drawing it while your files download, so there's less CPU load, giving you a bit more battery life. Works for my 12 inch Powerbook.

eck!!

[jxyama]

you said it, the "PowerBook G5"!!! how dare you?!?!?

as a frequenter of Mac rumor sites, i can tell you that the rumor mills are sick and tired of even hearing the word "PB G5"... even when an apple rep says "not anytime soon," some don't give up hope and keep on mentioning it, thinking that it will come out in a week or two, because that is "not anytime soon" in their mind...

Re:Question

[Sophrosyne]

That is usually for macs bought after tiger is released and the computer you bought comes with panther.

I doubt the g5 powerbook

[Raleel]

http://macslash.org/article.pl?sid=05/01/12/181020 3

nother of all challenges. And I can believe it. My g5 xserves are fricking hot.

They announced all this last year

[Anonymous Writer]

They haven't said anything new about Tiger that they didn't already mention last year, to my knowledge. I wish they would just release Quicktime 7 already, so users could work with H.264 without having to wait for Tiger.

Re:They announced all this last year

[Bulln-Bulln]

What are you talking about? H.264 (aka AVC) is an open standard. Apple is not the only one who implents this standard. In fact, Apple is quite slow. Here's a short list of available encoders:
Sorenson Squeeze 4, MainConcept H.264 Encoder, Nero Digital AVC, Hdot264, x264, etc....

And when you look how bad the quality of Apple's MPEG-4 ASP is (compared to XviD, DivX,...), I wouldn't bet that Apple AVC will be so great either.
If you want to encode on Mac I guess that Sorenson Squeeze 4 is currently the best sollution. According to the latest codec comparison on Doom9.net NeroDigital AVC is the best codec (Sorenson was not tested).

Re:They announced all this last year

[Anonymous Writer]

What about playback? Which apps would you recommend? I know about VLC as well as some nice replacement icons for the application. However, it wouldn't play back on a program I got got a coopy gor Movie Jukebox, which I would like it to. If quicktime could handle it already, then there would be support for it across the board.

Re:They announced all this last year

[benwaggoner]

Heck, Apple doesn't even do ASP (Advanced Simple Profile). They're simple profile only, for both encode and playback. And their SP encoder is quite infamously weak.

Squeeze is a great Mac MPEG-4 encoder. The other major commercial tool for that on Mac is Compression Master, which is a much better encoder for SP, and does good ASP as well. And there's ffmpegX and DivX for Mac as well.

Re:They announced all this last year

[Xyde]

Apple has gone down on record as saying they know their MPEG-4 (and it's not even ASP) codec isn't the best out there, and that all of their efforts have been concentrated on h.264 practically the whole time.

Who Cares about G5

[TampaDeveloper]

If Freescale continues to improve the speed and heat dissipation of the G4 the way they have been, who cares if its a G4 or G5. G4 is faster at the same clock speed. So whats the difference between a 1.5Ghz G4 and a 1.8Ghz G5? I think it would be much more productive for Applie to differentiate the powerbook line from the ibook line by putting one of those swanky new dual core G4's in it. Hey, whatd'ya know. The new G4's should be available 2nd quarter.

Re:Who Cares about G5

[jos3000]

There is the possibility they might just call the G4 dual-core the G5 mobile. The G* names are just arbitary after all.

Re:Who Cares about G5

[DougDew]

I care.

Apple claims on its website that some of its software (e.g. Motion) is designed for the G5. Given that stuff like Motion is what I intend to run on a Powerbook, and given that I don't want to run afoul of any of Apple's support policy silliness, I'm waiting for a Powerbook G5.

Doug

Re:Who Cares about G5

[e2ka]

Wasn't one of the defining factors of the original G5 release that it was 64-bit? "World's First 64-bit desktop", etc.

If they released a non-64-bit, non-IBM processor under the G5 name, the name would be truly meaningless.

Re:Who Cares about G5

[TampaDeveloper]

I hate how Apple does this. I wasn't aware they were attempting to antiquate the G4 already. I know I had the same problem with the G3 (Trying to use Sound Track). Stupid to artificially antiquate a chipset that a company (Freestyle) is still pouring money into, trying to make competitive. Perhaps one of the other users was correct, and they will designate the dual-cores as a G5 processors, just to please their own software requirements. I can't imagine that a Powerbook bought in Q2 2005 would not run software that was released prior to it...

Re:Who Cares about G5

[Joseph Lam]

no problem...dual-core = 32bit * 2 = 64bit

Re:Who Cares about G5

[Herbmaster]

Even if the G4 is faster than the G5 at the same clock speed, there are lots of reasons to go with a G5. Not the least of which is that the G4 doesn't run at as high a clock speed as the G5. 1.5 vs. 1.8 is one thing, 1.5 vs. 2.5 is something else entirely. Realistically, the G5 blows the G4 out of the water. The G5 is a 64-bit processor, although the utility of that in a laptop is pretty questionable. I think the big win with the G5 is that you're no longer stuck with the G4's antiquated FSB. Right now there is little reason to run a G4 at 2GHz because the memory bandwidth available to it is so low.

Re:Who Cares about G5

[Eccles]

Not in floating point.

Re:Who Cares about G5

[bdsesq]

At some point one of the OSX pussycat releases is going to be a native 64 bit OS. When that happens the G5 will make a big difference.
Today it doesn't really matter. My G4 powerbook is a dream today.
Its tommorow we are worrying about.

Re:Who Cares about G5

[HuguesT]

actually 33 bits.

Re:Who Cares about G5

[Shagz]

I believe this is the case for Tiger, so G5's will hopefully see a boost in performance in this release this year.

Re:Who Cares about G5

[bnenning]

I don't want to run afoul of any of Apple's support policy silliness, I'm waiting for a Powerbook G5.

Huh? Motion and Apple's other pro apps are fully supported on G4s.

Will ship?

[Savage-Rabbit]

"The Register is reporting that Powerbook G5s will ship in Q2 2005."

Actually the Register said:

So claim sources close to Taiwan's contract manufacturers, DigiTimes reports.

Which makes this more of a glorified rumor than anything else. Of course if it is true I'll be first in line to buy a G5 PowerBook come Q2 2005 and judging from what is being written about cooling problems I will also be able to fry bacon and eggs on it.

Re:Will ship?

[fafaforza]

I think this is an example of the "playing phone" nature of internet journalism: sources of sources sumarizing already scant information into even shorter blurbs, entirely out of context, and even entirely false.

Re:Will ship?

[onpaws]

Bacon and Eggs sold separately. (3) Do not eat Powerbook G5.

Re:Will ship?

[anonicon]

"judging from what is being written about cooling problems I will also be able to fry bacon and eggs on it."

Hear hear!, I wonder if they'll run a cross-promotion with the George Foreman grill to get the word out. I'd love to see old George doing his dance in one of those monochromatic Apple ads. :-)

64bit is new in OS X Tiger?!

[af_robot]

from zdnet: New is a 64-bit system, which does not mean an across-the-board speed boost, but memory-hungry applications such as large databases will probably benefit.
I thought that previous versions of Mac OS X running on G5 were also 64-bit?! How do they run 32-bit OS on a 64-bit G5 processor?!

Re:64bit is new in OS X Tiger?!

[HeghmoH]

No, Mac OS X 10.3 and below are strictly 32-bit. They run on a 64-big G5 processor by virtue of the fact that the 64-bit PowerPC is 100% compatible with 32-bit code.

Re:64bit is new in OS X Tiger?!

[njfuzzy]

Very well, thank you.

Re:64bit is new in OS X Tiger?!

[TylerL82]

Almost every 64-bit processor out there is made with the assumption that 32-bit processes will also have to be run.
There is no speed hit for running 32-bit apps on CPUs like the G5 or Athlon64.

Panther has some minor tweaks to certain libraries to allow for 64-bit memory addressing, etc., but the majority of the system (almost all of it) is 32-bit.
Tiger will be the same way.

Apple has a developer note pretty much saying "don't make 64-bit apps unless you absolutely must deal with >2GB RAM".

Re:64bit is new in OS X Tiger?!

[nine-times]

Some changes were made to support the 64bit processor, but the g5 can also run 32bit code. So, mostly, in Panther, you weren't taking advantage of the 64bit-ed-ness of the processor.

However, I thought Tiger still wasn't going to be true/complete 64bit. Anyone remember authoritatively? (No, I don't trust ZDnet)

Re:64bit is new in OS X Tiger?!

[varmittang]

Tiger will be 32 bit with the ability to do better 64 bit addressing. It can do it now, just they are adding more 64 bit abilities to Tiger over Panther. So it is still a 32 bit base I believe.

Re:64bit is new in OS X Tiger?!

[Leo McGarry]

The reason for this is that a 64-bit application will be slower than an identical application compiled for 32-bit addressing every time.

See, in 64-bit mode, the computer uses 64-bit-wide pointers instead of 32-bit-wide pointers. That means only half as many pointers can fit in registers or the various caches. Which means that, in most respects, you effectively cut your cache sizes in half when you compile for 64-bit.

Apple has no plans to release 64-bit versions of the Cocoa or Carbon frameworks, so your user-interactive applications are going to continue to be 32-bit for the foreseeable future. But Tiger will have increased 64-bit support for the core system libraries so Oracle can release a 64-bit version of their database, for instance.

Despite the hype, 64-bit computing is just not something that normal folks need. I had an SGI Octane on my desk for two years and I don't think I ever once compiled or ran a 64-bit program.

Re:64bit is new in OS X Tiger?!

[JQuick]

Panther is most of the way there.

off_t and other file related quantities have long been 64 bits.
For normal compilation caddr_t and friends are still 32 bits.

gcc 3.3 on the mac defined a transitional 64 bit binary format, via the flag "-arch ppc64". This defined a fake mach-o host architecture which used 64-bit pointers but otherwise was identical from an opcode perspective to the ppc970 processor subtype.

With the advent of gcc4.0 as64, nm64, and otool64 executables are present. Also "-arch ppc970" may now be specified explicitly to gcc.

I'm not aware of any significant ways in which Tiger will not truly be 64-bit. In some low level areas only 48 address address bits are significant. Since actually building or powering 64 bits worth of storage is currently impossible (even in theory) I don't see that anyone will miss them.

Re:64bit is new in OS X Tiger?!

[Anonymous Coward]

64-bit computing is just not something that normal folks need

"Nobody needs more than 640KB of memory - Bill Gates"

Re:64bit is new in OS X Tiger?!

[Jerrry]

Tiger will be 32 bit with the ability to do better 64 bit addressing. It can do it now, just they are adding more 64 bit abilities to Tiger over Panther. So it is still a 32 bit base I believe.

How does this compare to what Microsoft's doing in Windows XP Professional 64-bit edition? Are they taking the same approach of leaving most things 32-bit and just adding 64-bit memory addressing for applications that need it, or are they closer to having a fully 64-bit system?

Re:64bit is new in OS X Tiger?!

[Dominic_Mazzoni]

No, Mac OS X 10.3 and below are strictly 32-bit. They run on a 64-big G5 processor by virtue of the fact that the 64-bit PowerPC is 100% compatible with 32-bit code.

That's mostly true. Applications are still limited to a 32-bit address space each. However the system can deal with 8 GB of RAM on a G5, so it's not like OS X 10.3 is completely ignoring the 64-bit registers...

Re:64bit is new in OS X Tiger?!

[HuguesT]

Most of the time in compiled applications you have instructions and data in your cache, and not so many pointers.

Data or instruction size don't change in a 64-bit machine, however your capacity to manipulate this data improves because you get access to 64-bit registers. On some machines you even get many more registers, which can help (it certainly does on AMD's x86_64)

I have found that without exceptions so far recompiling an application for 64-bit processors has improved performance on all the platforms I've tried, including SGI.

Now if you run a lot of interpreters or virtual machines or if you run C++ code with lots of virtual methods, then indeed your pointer count is high in the cache and performance may decrease, but this is not a foregone conclusion.

Re:64bit is new in OS X Tiger?!

[SunFan]

I get really tired of that "quote". The jump to 32-bits was much more immediately tangible than the jump to 64-bits. 64-bit CPUs have been around since the early 1990s (the G5 "first 64-bit desktop" is forgivable but annoying). Mainly only the largest scientific and engineering problems fell into the domain of really and truly needing 64-bit addressing. Even today that is still true but only slightly less, especially since practically no PCs ship with 2GB RAM or more. Right now the only software that the typical home PC might run that could benefit from 64-bits is video editing. After that might be photo editing or a game or two, but the ramp up for apps that need 64-bits is going to be pretty slow. Maybe in another decade or two can we say that 64-bits is a base requirement for new PCs.

Re:64bit is new in OS X Tiger?!

[bnenning]

Panther has some minor tweaks to certain libraries to allow for 64-bit memory addressing, etc., but the majority of the system (almost all of it) is 32-bit. Tiger will be the same way.

Specifically, Panther can recognize more than 4GB of system RAM, but all processes are still limited to a 32-bit (4GB) address space. Tiger will allow 64-bit processes, but they will be very limited in what libraries they can use (basically POSIX and a few others, no UI).

Re:64bit is new in OS X Tiger?!

[Refrag]

Right, and in 10.4 each application will be able to access over 4GB RAM.

Re:64bit is new in OS X Tiger?!

[Cro Magnon]

So, Tiger will run on my new iBook G4?

Re:64bit is new in OS X Tiger?!

[Jozer99]

No. No Mac OS has been sixty four bit yet. Remember the big boing sound heard across the net when Panther came out and ran only in 32 bit mode? Basically, the 64 bit extensions of the G5 are not used by much, especially the OS. I think the main reason is that Apple does not have the resources to maintain 2 separate versions of OS X, one for G3s and G4s, and one for G5s. Microsoft does however. If you want true 64 bit computing on a G5, use a linux distro.

Re:64bit is new in OS X Tiger?!

[Guy Harris]

off_t and other file related quantities have long been 64 bits.

That's a BSDism, going back to at least 4.4-Lite.

Re:64bit is new in OS X Tiger?!

[JQuick]

You are right, but that is older hat for most Unices than for the code base this descended from.

NeXTStep through OPENSTEP 4.0 were based on BSD 4.3 + Mach, thus still had 4GB limits on everything including file system partitions, etc. As OPENSTEP became Darwin, the core OS got refreshed with elements from a much more recent version of Mach and with BSD4.4 code from NetBSD and FreeBSD. The Bulk of that code from 10.0-10.2 was from FreeBSD 4.x. Panther began synching with the FreeBSD 5.x series. 64-bit indirect addressing came from there.

In Panther, an interim compiler flag and mach-o cpu type were added to support large primary address spaces (64 bit pointers). When running on the powermac G5 the vm subsystem is 64-bit, and executables compiled with that flag got large VM address spages and 64 bit pointers.

Starting with Tiger, the interim compiler flag and mach-o type which support 64 bit direct addresses will be replaced by the long term versions.

The point is that Panther on G5s already allows large address spaces for both primary and secondary storage. Thus is already 64-bit aware.

Re:Question

[TheRaven64]

Unless you bought it just before the new version was released (a few months), in which case they offer a $20 upgrade. I got my upgrade to Panther this way. The upgrades are irritating if you wish to do a reinstall, since you need to reinstall the earlier version then run the upgrade, but they are a lot cheaper than the full version.

huge thermal challenge

[kaan]

I don't think there's much credibility to the claim of a G5 powerbook shipping within the next 6 months. I was just reading something the other day (I think it may have been another article at The Register, in fact), where one of the Apple higher-ups was quoted as saying that a G5 in a Powerbook would be "the mother of all thermal challenges", and then immediately refused to answer any more questions about it.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a superfast Powerbook hit the market, I think it would only do good things for customers and Apple as a company. But it took about 2 years before Apple engineers figured out how to pack the G4 into a Powerbook. I'd love to eat crow about this rumor and be proven wrong, but I just don't see it.

Re:huge thermal challenge

[yiffyfox]

Apple is not affraid of strange looking computers, so why not a pure copper case for the laptop. Heatpipes could dissipate heat off the back of the display from the CPU. I think a copper mac would be cool looking too, especially after it started to oxidize and turn green.

Re:huge thermal challenge

[Fred_A]

It'll be hard to type with the oven mittens though...

Re:huge thermal challenge

[dirty]

I'm thinking the lawsuits from people getting serious burns on their legs might prevent this idea from working.

Re:huge thermal challenge

[dman123]

Don't forget it was The Steve Himself who denied that Apple was interested in the low-end flash market for new iPods. Wasn't that at the July 04 expo (6 months ago)? I can't recall the date, but He was pretty clear about that; I fell for it.

I now predict a new G5 PowerBook within 6 months for that very reason.

Re:huge thermal challenge

[Moofie]

The only thing worse than high temperatures on the processor, is high temperatures on me.

Your idea is a pretty bad one.

Re:huge thermal challenge

[bynary]

Agreed. When anyone in marketing tells you something, believe the exact opposite. If Apple says "No, there is no possible way in hell that we'll ever release a G5 Powerbook...ever..." you can bet that there's a G5 Powerbook waiting to be shipped the next day. If they say "Our new video card will be shipping in three months..." that means that the hardware is still in the initial phases of design and the firmware is in pre-Alpha stages.

Re:huge thermal challenge

[redJag]

That's one of the worst ideas I have ever heard.

Yes, this idea is horrible.
/sorry for inaccuracies

Re:huge thermal challenge

[White Roses]

I wonder . . . I keep reading about Apple people talk about a G5 PowerBook as a challenge. Not as impossible. Not laughing it off as unrealistic. Not saying we wouldn't even think of something so ludicrous. A challenge. Like Everest, or flying around the world on one tank of fuel. Why describe it as a challenge if you're not willing to take up the gauntlet?

Re:huge thermal challenge

[Warhaven]

I normally make it a point to wait for the Rev B's of any Apple Product. If they do manage to get out a G5 PowerBook by Q2, I would strongly suggest waiting for a second revision of that PowerBook, especially if the afforementioned quote is accurate.

Re:huge thermal challenge

[bob beta]

Well, they described building a Next Generation Object Oriented Operating System for years, even spent many millions of dollars on it.

Before they gave up and just used NeXT's OS, of course.

Re:huge thermal challenge

[yiffyfox]

The bottom of the case could be insulated. My idea was to dissapte heat off the back of the display, the part up in the air, not on your legs, unless you use your laptop in a very stange way, but i don't think I want to know about that.

Re:huge thermal challenge

[Anarchitect_in_oz]

Where as the putting the G5 into the imac was only discribe as an interesting thermal challange 3 months before it was released. I guess "the mother of all theraml challenges" should be say 6 to 12 months lead time.

Re:huge thermal challenge

[kc0re]

I am sure they could put a G5 in a powerbook, but apple wants the same as they done on everything else. Low fan noise! If you wanted the fan to run all the time .a la. Pentium machines...

Smart Folders

[your_mother_sews_soc]

I just installed the latest Tiger Preview last night. It seems to be just like Panther in many respects. I can't say I was wowed by the all of new features since:

• I didn't spend much time using it
• I'm never that excited by new features until I learn their value through use over time.

That said, there is one new feature that really impressed me: Smart Folders. They are part of Spotlight and are very similar to Smart Playlists in iTunes. In essence they are "virtual folders" that you define using rules. I set one up to list all of my images. It works in conjunction with the indexing provided by Spotlight and seemed to be very fast. I think this one new feature will be the standout in the next release.

Re:Smart Folders

[wes33]

it's the one who *releases* the feature first who wins not the one who *announces* the feature

Re:Smart Folders

[Dominatus]

Not really, not in terms of copying.

If Microsoft saw the idea, but got behind track and couldn't get it out, and Apple saw the idea and implemented it, and then MS gets it out, how, exactly is Microsoft copying Apple?

If I say to a Professor "Professor, I'm going to write my thesis on why some people are so blind to the truth", and some kid behind me hears me and goes and ahead and writes it up before me and hands it into the teacher first, should the teacher punish me for not having an original idea?

It's all fuzzy logic, and I mean fuzzy in the hairy way not the logical way.

Re:Smart Folders

[Tibor the Hun]

Damn, even though I'm a big Mac fanboy, I'd give you an insightful for this comment.

However, since Longhorn is NTFS based, I hardly doubt that this feature would be as fast as apple's implementation.

There's a reason MS calls it "search", while apple calls it "find".

Re:Smart Folders

[hcdejong]

And they'd be right.
Apple was working on non-folder groupings of data they called "piles" in the early 1990s.
"a pile is a loose grouping of documents. Its visual representation is an overlay of all the documents within the pile, one on top of the other, rotated to varying degrees. In other words, a pile on the desktop looked just like a pile on your real desktop."

The BeOS took this a step further (the ability to create/maintain piles automatically with a search).
more info

Re:Smart Folders

[zpok]

"What's a shame is that Microsoft announced this as a feature of longhorn a couple years ago, but 10 bucks, no 100 bucks says when Longhorn comes out the slashdot crowd will scream copycat. "

While you're very right, I have to say the following:

1) who cares what the /. crowd screams, users look for a good experience, OS X will more likely give it to them, whichever system I or you prefer. This smart folder implementation will be a good example, just return to this issue in say four years time when MS has implemented it too.
2) not looking to bash MS per se, but just as Apple has this annoying shrowd of secrecy, MS has this annoying habit of announcing features years before production, and while baffled producers of same features flee the field, MS starts delaying and coming back on its word. A good example here is its new meta-data file system that now won't even be included in longhorn. What's different now as opposed to 10 years ago is that producers now say "Hey, deja vue, so go ahead Billy, do your worst, and meanwhile, look at this cool new search engine we built here..."

In short: even if MS announces something ahead of someone else, in my book that means dick. Walk your talk.

Re:Smart Folders

[Durandal64]

It's not about who first says they're going to do it; it's about who has it first. Microsoft beat Apple to fast user-switching; now Apple is going to beat Microsoft to smart folders.

Re:Smart Folders

[Fear the Clam]

Folder actions were available on the Mac before OS X, and they're already in OS X now. The only difference is that in Tiger they work with Spotlight.

Re:Smart Folders

[Milton Waddams]

Does Finder in Tiger still have column view? When I was watching Jobs show off Spotlight in the Expo video, there seemed to be only 3 view options: Icon View, List View and Spotlight View.

Please say it ain't so. I LOVE column view and it'd really suck for it to go away.

Re:Smart Folders

[Leo McGarry]

That rumor has already been debunked. What got described as "piles" in the rumor mill was actually Exposé.

Remember all those rumors about a mouse with a wheel on it? Turned out to be the design for the iPod click wheel.

Ironically, the rumor mill often gets the details right but the big picture wrong.

Re:Smart Folders

[2nd Post!]

They might.

I think the real shame is that Microsoft won't be shipping Longhorn with smart folders since they're dropping major functionality in their WinFS component.

So maybe there won't even be an option of screaming, "Copycat!"

Re:Smart Folders

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no column view while doing a Spotlight search -- this makes sense, because there's no heirarchy to traverse.

The column view is still there when using the Finder to just browse, though.

Re:Smart Folders

[Leo McGarry]

Beyond "hey, search," the Apple and Microsoft approaches couldn't be more different.

The Microsoft approach called for a massive SQL database to store all filesystem data, making every search of the filesystem, from a directory listing up, a database query. I think I read somewhere that this approach was subsequently dropped in favor of something else, but I don't know that for sure.

The Apple approach is much more lightweight, which is undoubtedly why they're able to ship years before Microsoft. Spotlight consists of a metadata server program with a database back-end (I don't remember whether it's actually SQLite or some other way of storing the data) and and an extensible metadata importer. When a file is closed, the metadata importer program gets a notification to re-import the metadata for that file. If a plug-in exists for that file's type, the importer passes the file's path to it and gets a data structure of metadata attributes back.

So you see, Apple's approach is completely different from Microsoft's. Which means, apart from the fact that both companies noticed a nail and started working on hammers, there's really no reason to talk about anybody copying anybody.

Re:Smart Folders

[TomorrowPlusX]

[begin BeOS whoring]
BeOS did that back in the 90's. And it Worked, and it was Good.
[end BeOS whoring]

Oh, and MS has been *trying* to do WinFS for what, a decade now? Good luck to them. They've got the brains, they've got the resources: but I suspect that by this point Windows is simply too HUGE and crufty now to really make something as significant as WinFS really integrate cleanly.

Again, good luck to MS.

Re:Smart Folders

[wes33]

If I say I'm going to build a machine to fly to mars and I am tinkering around, but you build the machine first, then I guess everyone would say that you were copying me. Is that what you meant?

I say if MS shoots its mouth off about some little OS feature, fails to deliver it, and Apple beats them to releasing it then Apple gets credit. When MS finally releases it, they aren't copying Apple but they are not releasing anything new or exciting. So Apple wins, like I said.

Re:Smart Folders

[Dominatus]

Woah woah WOAH

When did I say Apple was copying MS? I didn't. I was stating MS *wasnt* copying Apple.

Though, having reread my analogy perhaps that was a bit unfair, it did imply copying and I didnt want to. Let's say someone coincidently hands it in first, but after you already told your teacher you were doing it.

Re:Smart Folders

[cpt kangarooski]

Piles are not smart folders.

HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that Apple hasn't been toying with this for a while. I recall reading an essay in The Art of Human Computer Interface Design by Alan Kay, IIRC, who was at Apple at the time (this would've been the late 80's), describing basically the same thing. He called them bins, to distinguish them from folders.

It's been about five years since I read it, and I don't have a copy handy, so perhaps someone could make sure that I'm attributing it to the right person?

Re:Smart Folders

[diamondsw]

Nevermind this was shown as part of the never-finished Copland from 1994. Back then they called it "saved searches", and it was supposed to be powered by V-Twin, what then became Sherlock, which then just became "Find".

What I always find amazing is Apple previewed a lot of good ideas with Copland, and has taken forever to get it to market, largely based on the hell going on in the company in those early years. Instead of Microsoft and others copying what was released, why not pull a lot of the ideas and such from the Copland demos and actually beat Apple to the punch once in a while?

Re:Smart Folders

[mbbac]

I'll take that bet since MS has already said that feature won't be a part of Longhorn.

Plus, BFS predates MS and Apple's implementations by years. Luckily, Apple hired the guy that designed BFS (Dominic Giampaolo). :)

Re:Smart Folders

[furball]

It's still BeOS's game. The guy who's making Spotlight work for Apple is the same guy who built BeOS's filesystem to work with its metadata. I'm quite thrilled about that because BeOS's filesystem was great, but it was a shame to see the company disappear. Now we get the software again through a different corporate entity. Hurray!

Re:Smart Folders

[Lars T.]

Err, nope. What was described as "piles" in one rumor was actually Exposé. The Apple developed interface concept called "Piles" is actually something different. And the "rumors about a mouse with a wheel on it" are based on an Apple patent named "Mouse having a rotary dial" that describes a "user operated input device includes a housing and a rotary dial positioned relative to an external surface of the housing. The rotary dial provides a control function."

Re:Smart Folders

[mrklin]

>[begin BeOS whoring]
>BeOS did that back in the 90's. And it Worked, and it was Good.
>[end BeOS whoring]

[begin office supply whoring]
Manila folders did that back in the 50's-80's. And it Worked, and it was Good too.
[end office supply whoring]

Seriously, back in the '90s, I did not get 100 e-mails a day, I did not have 30 GB of music file and 100 GB of video file, and I now have tons of doc, xls, pdfs, qif, etc that I did not have back then.

You cannot always compare new to old technology much less to a dead OS.

Re:Smart Folders

[geniusj]

Can you use smart folders from Terminal? Is this a real folder? Or just something presented to you by Finder? This is something I'd be interested to know. If someone could paste an ls -l from a smart folder, that'd be even better :)

Re:Smart Folders

[Rude Turnip]

Of course, "finding" implies that what you're looking for is actually there. What if it isn't? I kind of like MS's "aim low" approach on this issue :)

Re:Smart Folders

[Bishop923]

[begin office supply whoring]
Manila folders did that back in the 50's-80's. And it Worked, and it was Good too.
[end office supply whoring]

You had manilla folders that automatically updated themselves based on changes to other folders in the filing cabinet? In our office we had to get a third-party app called "Administrative Assistant" with a periphrial called "Photocopier"... and then it only updated when you told it to, or if you built a "office procedure" that would get run once or twice a day.

You guys had it good...

Re:Smart Folders

[bizard]

And 3) could be: In the past Apple, like Microsoft delighted in pre-announcing features and even demoing them (like Tiger last year) long before their release dates. Many of the current features of Mac OS X, including smart folders were announced and demoed as part of the Copland project. Here is an article from 1996 which talks briefly about them, but I'm sure that a better description exists somewhere.

Re:Smart Folders

[TheNextBigThing]

I don't think anyone is copying anyone. It's just a natural progression. However I think MS will "appear" to be copying Apple once Longhorn comes out.

Re:Smart Folders

[Lars T.]

Apple's Ten-Year-Old Breakthrough

But the Smart Folders idea goes back much deeper in Apple history -- in fact, it pre-dates Jobs' Second Coming. Smart Folders used to be called "Views" and they were a pre-announced feature of Copland, the ill-fated OS that was eventually replaced by the NeXT OS. (It drew on the V-Twin text indexing that did make it into OS 9, I believe, and may well still be a part of OS X.) I saw a demo of Views when I visited Apple in 1996, and it made such a strong impression that I wrote about it in my first book, Interface Culture:

Apple's V-Twin implementation lets you define the results of a search as a permanent element of the Mac desktop -- as durable and accessible as your disk icons and the sub-folders stacked beneath them. In Apple's language, these new items are called "Views," for reasons we will come to understand. At first glance, a View looks and behaves like your average folder or sub-directory: it is represented by an icon; clicking on that icon opens a window that contains other icons, representing assorted files; clicking on one of those icons opens the appropriate document. So far so good. Things get tricky, however, when we try to add a file to a View manually, by dragging an icon over the View's window... The user has only indirect control over the contents of a View. He or she specifies its general attributes, using the language of the V-Twin search engine: "find all documents on my hard drive that are likethis other document." The computer then decides which documents fulfill that request, and places them in the View window. (Technically speaking, it places copies -- or "aliases" -- of each document in the View; the originals remain in their previous locations.) Unlike the temporary results of a "find file" request, the View window has what programmers call "persistence."Like an ordinary folder, the View remains on your desktop until you throw it away. During that lifespan, the V-Twin software regularly updates the View's contents whenever new files arrive that match the original search request.

I think it's pretty ironic that the most highly-touted feature in Tiger is one they've been trying to get into a shipping OS for almost ten years. Sometimes information society isn't quite as fast as it's rumored to be.

Re:Smart Folders

[Draoi]

Yow! MacOS X now has piles? That's true innovation. I've heard WinXP being described as being described as a pain in the a$$ - does this mean M$ got there first this time?

Re:Smart Folders

[Anonymous Coward]

I take it you didn't read your NDA?

Re:Smart Folders

[mrchaotica]

That's AMAZING! How did you get the files in those manila folders to be in two places at once?

Re:Smart Folders

[Anonymous Coward]

I have to wonder... are Smart Folders available at the filesystem level, or only through Finder.app? If it's at the filesystem level, that's HUGE. Then ANY application could use a smart folder you've created to find data. I could have a smart folder of all my images (as you did), and point the standard slideshow screensaver to it. No more would I have to worry about putting copies in a particular place. That's just the tip of the iceberg...

If it's just in Finder, oh well. Very nice and I'm sure useful, but not by nearly the orders of magnitude.

Re:Smart Folders

[Salvo]

Just like Live Queries in BeOS. MacOSX will finally fill my Computing needs, Missing since my BeOS Machine was retired.

Re:Smart Folders

[NutscrapeSucks]

Microsoft has had the underlying search technology to do "smart folders" since the mid-90s, they've just never done the UI integration.

The real issue is that people Macintoshes for the User Interface, therefore Apple concentrates on wizbang Finder/UI features.

Nobody buys Windows for the UI/Explorer, they buy it for the programs that run on top. Many enterprise users actually perfer that Explorer never change. Therefore Microsoft concentrates on APIs and tech that's by-in-large invisible to the end user.

Re:Smart Folders

[Salvo]

One thing I didn't like about Attributes in BeFS was having to manually update Attributes from File Data, for most file types. Tools like Tags&Attributes (Army Knife) were required.
The only File Types where the software automatically updated the Attributes were BeMail Messages and Person Files.
(Person files didn't even have any File Data. Their entire content was contained in Attributes.)

The MacOSX Tiger ability to keep file Metadata Syncronised without 3rd Party Products will complete this feature, rather than the Half-finished job which was BeFS and Tracker.

Re:Smart Folders

[Lars T.]

Did you even bother to look at the purty pigshures?

Re:Smart Folders

[burns210]

I believe Apple hired one(or more) of the guys from BeOS and he has been the main/lead engineer behind the Spotlight system. Sounds great to me.

Re:Smart Folders

[waynelorentz]

I saw a Flash demo of Apple's Piles somewhere on the internet once. It was great. That method of file organization exactly matches how my brain and my desk work. I'm sooooo disappointed it hasn't become a real product yet. I'd switch back to Windows for it.

Re:Smart Folders

[TomorrowPlusX]

I feel your pain. I wrote an image metadata generator which ran as a background process, listening for additions of images in particular folders and added stuff like resolution, dimensions, etc etc to their metadata. It was pretty nifty, but I never polished it enough to release it.

I did like BeOS's Translator kit -- I wrote the PSDTranslator addon way back in 99 or so. http://bebits.com/app/1343/

Programming BeOS was nice, though it had its rough edges. When the writing was on the wall about beOS's future I went to linux and didn't look back. Fortunately 99% of my code was pure POSIX, and portable to linux, and later to Mac OS X.

Re:Smart Folders

[michaelknauf]

And where did those guys from BeOS come from? Apple.

I can confirm the new Powerbooks...

[bay43270]

I just bought a Powerbook G4, so you can expect the G5 announcement any day now.

Re:I can confirm the new Powerbooks...

[hey!]

Welcome to the Apple business model. As soon as you consumate your lust, they have a new model for you to lust after.

Re:I can confirm the new Powerbooks...

[larkost]

How is Apple different in this regard from any other company in the electronics industry? Or the Automotive industry... or the...

Re:I can confirm the new Powerbooks...

[Octagon Most]

"Welcome to the Apple business model. As soon as you consumate your lust, they have a new model for you to lust after."

You do have a point as far as technolust is fueled on the Mac side by Apple's desire to introduce new models in dramatic fashion. What's interesting, at least to me, is that since I switched to the Mac about five years ago I have become so much less desirous of new hardware. Sure I eagerly devour every detail of every Apple product announcement, but then I go back to my iMac and just enjoy it. It's far from the cutting edge to be sure. But I have become comfortable that the user experience is what I appreciate, not the raw power. My iMac G4 1GHz was superceded a little over a month after I bought it by a model with a 25% faster processor and a larger HD. But I didn't really care. I'm just ... happy with it.

A different perspective than most here I imagine.

Re:I can confirm the new Powerbooks...

[Anonymous Coward]

I just bought a Powerbook G4, so you can expect the G5 announcement any day now.

Unless you really needed the PB now that was a stupid thing to do. Always check MacRumors Buyer's Guide before buying.

Re:I can confirm the new Powerbooks...

[valkraider]

I have been extremely lucky. I am coming up on my Powerbook being 1 full year as the top-o-the-line Powerbook.

I have never had that happen with any computer I have ever owned.

I bought it the day it was announced, and until they bump the PBs it will be king... (well, 15 inch king. I have everything the 17 has without the god aweful size. I can't imagine trying to open the 17inch on a plane or actually use it in my lap...)

15inch 1.5Ghz 1024MB RAM, 5400RPM drive, 128MB VRAM, Backlit keyboard...

Re:I can confirm the new Powerbooks...

[Moofie]

Apple is better at it.

Re:I can confirm the new Powerbooks...

[Arcady13]

I can relate to this. I ordered a Pioneer DVR-108 DVD burner, and while it was in the hands of UPS, making its way from California to Ohio, Pioneer announced the DVR-109. Oh, and I ordered my 21.3 inch LCD monitor two days before Samsung announced that they would have a no dead pixel warranty on all new displays bought from then on. (Luckily, my display arrived without any dead pixels.)

Re:I can confirm the new Powerbooks...

[Paradise Pete]

They prevent the consumer from planning ahead.

By planning ahead I take you mean not buying anything right now. That's the Adam Osborne business model. He let it be known that the Osborne II was on its way. The whole world immediately cancelled their pending orders for the until-then hot selling Osborne I, and the company went broke.

Re:I can confirm the new Powerbooks...

[bar-agent]

You bought the G4 so the rest of us would get the G5? Thanks man! Way to "take one for the team."

Re:I can confirm the new Powerbooks...

[moggie_xev]

I must be one of the few people who actually like the 17" powerbook I am typing on then. It rarely runs hot and is a sweet little machine

Re:I can confirm the new Powerbooks...

[burns210]

I agree. I have a 1ghz 12" powermac(1 generation out of date) and it really works great. There is no real reason to upgrade anytime soon.

Ofcourse, had I literally waited a couple months and gotten the 64meg video card model, I would have been much happier. Tiger's eye candy and some gaming and windowing speed, etc.

Even with that, though, my mac works great, reliable and fun to use. So I am happy.

Re:I can confirm the new Powerbooks...

[unclethursday]

Sweet? Yes.

Little? No.

Would I kill you and take it from you if I had the option? Hell yes.

I should have just saved up for another month and got the 17" PowerBook over my 14" iBook. I'd have more RAM and a better video card too.

Re:I can confirm the new Powerbooks...

[valkraider]

Physically possible, yes. Financially possible? I have to wait till tonights Lotto drawing... :)

Easy...

[the_twisted_pair]

..irelies on a miniturised Reality Distortion Field which diverts the hot air into the Marketing division.

A less sarcastic answer - it has to be a proc. revision or variant which lowers power demand. In a portable, waste heat is wasted battery life. Apple laptops excel at battery life/ management - I would be amazed if that got tossed just to get to market.

Re:Easy...

[dfj225]

I have an G4 iBook and I am constantly surprised how quite it runs. Until last night, I wasn't even sure if it had a fan in it or not. I was compiling a DVD image and this was the first time I've heard the fan come on and thats after about 5 months of having used it for normal everyday things. Using wi-fi and turning the brightness up does drain the batter a little faster, but it still runs pretty long on one charge.

I think it would be a really bad idea to drop the battery life just to have a G5 in the box.

Re:Easy...

[Nixoloco]

How long is "pretty long" for you? I have a powerbook g4 that never gets much more than 2 to 2.5 hours of life on a full charge. Compare that to my thinkpad (centrino) that averages 4.5 to 5 hours.

Re:Easy...

[womby]

Phone apple and say "my laptop battery gets only 90 minutes life if I am careful". After talking you through some battery refreshing techniques you tell them it still doesn't work and they will ship you a new battery and arrange collection.

Unless you are out of your warranty period, you did get the extended applecare support?

Re:Easy...

[jo_ham]

My G3 iBook had a fan too - it never turned on in 3 years of use.

My 15" 1.5GHz powerbook has two fans on the left and right side under the keyboard area, but I have very rarely heard them come on, and never at full speed. They hardly ever come on together either.

The only time I have heard them at full speed was during the fan tests on the hardware test CD, and even then they are quite discrete, unlike the original fan on the Tibook, that sounded like a hairdryer.

Under normal use (eve with heavy cpu use), and when on a desk, the fans never come on. If there's heavy cpu use when it's on my lap, the fans occasionally come on for a minute or so.

Re:Easy...

[dfj225]

I would say +-4 hours using wireless and screen brightness much higher than half.

PB-G5 in 2Q 2005? Probably not.

[Psykechan]

After reading TFA, I don't think that we will have G5 laptops anytime within the first half of this year.

It states that sources close to the Taiwan manufacturer claim they will ship. Aren't these the same sources that have been promising a Tablet Macintosh?

It also states that there are the known heat problems, Apple saying it won't happen, and has a link to a more likely higher speed 90nm G4 (MPC7448) to be used in the newer models. This doesn't even factor in the fact that a G5 PowerBook would likely have been mentioned at the conference. It even suggests that the quoted source has made a typo!

Is this hype that we should be reading on the front page? It's /. so of course!

I Seriously Doubt It Because ...

[Compulawyer]

1. Apple itself has called putting the G5 into a notebook "the mother of all engineering challenges." That doesn't mean that Apple hasn't overcome those challenges but ...
2. Apple's usual policy when asked about new products is "no comment." It is unusual that Apple would expressly deny a product. Everyone KNOWS there will be a G5 notebook SOMEDAY, but ther question is WHEN? Given Apple's tremenndous stock run-up since August 2004, I think it more likely that Apple does not want premature rumours of a G5 PowerBook to cause a bubble effect on its stock price.
3. The linked article ITSELF acknowledged that the original source may have mistakenly typed a "5" instead of a "4." It is far more likely that the iBook and PowerBook lines will get a speed bump, most likely announced at the upcoming WWDC.

Re:I Seriously Doubt It Because ...

[bgarland]

Apple also denied having an eye on the sub-$800 PC market. During the previous conference call (October '04) they said "We don't think we can make a lot of money there."

Re:I Seriously Doubt It Because ...

[Leo McGarry]

Apple lives and dies by expectations. Remember the iPod mini? Rumor sites reported the week before it was announced that it would be a 5 GB device priced at $199. The actual product, of course, was a 4 GB device priced at $249. The reaction from analysts and investors was devastating, despite the fact that the iPod mini went on to sell like a house on fire.

It's entirely reasonable that Apple would try to manage consumer expectations regarding the Obvious Next Big Thing. If buzz starts that a PowerBook G5 is coming next month, when it fails to materialize Apple's stock price will take a hit.

Besides, the G4 still has an awful lot of life left in it. It's a damn fine processor, the only major drawback of which is that it has a memory bus that doesn't really compare with the current state of the art. But in many cases --iBooks, eMacs, Mac minis --that's not really important.

Re:I Seriously Doubt It Because ...

[Compulawyer]

That isn't a denial, it is an avoidance. Although I concede that the statement about the "mother of all engineering problems" is also not a denial but it is closer.

Re:I Seriously Doubt It Because ...

[jazuki]

Compulawyer quoth:

Although I concede that the statement about the "mother of all engineering problems" is also not a denial but it is closer.

I'm not sure what you mean by a closer, unless you mean that it is an "end of discussion". It seems to me, however, that Apple is just creating an opportunity to come back and say: "Look what we did!"

It also seem like something they're actively working on. (At least enough to call it the MOAEP.) To call it a closer also suggests an ignorance of Apple's traditional media strategy: misdirect (taken as denial), misdirect, misdirect, then "ooooh! look!"

Re:I Seriously Doubt It Because ...

[FireBreathingDog]

Apple also denied having an eye on the sub-$800 PC market. During the previous conference call (October '04) they said "We don't think we can make a lot of money there."

That's not the same thing as saying they don't have one. Apple might not make a lot of money selling $499 Mac minis, but if they convert a lot of people to the Mac, Apple might make a lot of money on their second Mac purchase. There's a network effect inherent in gaining market share even when doing so won't result in much incremental profit.

Drug pushers don't make money on any free samples they hand out, razor manufacturers don't profit from selling the handles, etc. But there is a longer-term vision at play...

Re:I Seriously Doubt It Because ...

[Compulawyer]

Ummm ... I won't harp on this but I didn't say "A closer," I said closer - as in nearer, more proximate, not as distant, etc. Meaning: I concede it is not a denial but I interpreted it as being closer to being a denial than the statement you quoted.

PowerBooks & Apple

[IceFox]

Granted I guess I couldn't really validate buying an Apple system when I already have several very nice x86 Linux boxes and I am going to be using the Linux boxes more anyway, but.... I can validate getting an Apple PowerBook. I had one last year and loved having it. The wifi just worked and bla cool bla shiny bla. Anyway so I probably wont be buying a mini (no real need at this time), but I was really hoping for some price change on the PowerBook. Waited the past four months, but alas no change this week. So I was going to pick one up next week, but now more credulant (than just dihard mac wishes) of the G5 in the PowerBooks? Should I wait 6 months or .... -Benjamin Meyer P.S. Along the same lines started about two years ago I noticed that more and more Linux developers have PowerBooks even if they don't have Apple desktop box's.

Re:PowerBooks & Apple

[Jimithing DMB]

It's always better to buy Macs now rather than waiting. Even if they do come out with something new you can sell your current model at not too much of a loss on eBay (you'll probably get nearly what you paid for it) and buy the new model.

Also, if the cost seems a bit high on the PowerBook one thing you might try if you are a software developer of any sort is joining ADC. A $500 membership fee gets you access to Tiger and many other benefits like updated documentation sent on CD and DVD every month as well as copies of current system software (Panther client and server at the moment).

The really big thing is that you get a significant discount on hardware. Let me put it this way: if you are buying the top of the line 17" PowerBook with the additional VRAM and faster 5400 RPM drive then it's going to cost just shy of $3000. The discount on that works out to slightly more than you pay to join ADC. In addition, if you also want to buy a cinema display at the same time for use with the PowerBook they will often let you do this so you can really make your money back then. You also get a slightly less significant discount on Apple-branded accessories like iPod or wireless keyboards and mice if you buy them all in the same order (you only get to do this once per annual ADC membership).

Since you say you have been using Linux I assume you probably have at least a little development experience. If you plan to use your Mac for software development then you qualify for the discount. I use my PB to work on wxCocoa as well as projects for work. I even do Windows development on my PB using a cross GCC and Virtual PC for testing.

Re:PowerBooks & Apple

[Johnboi Waltune]

I got a $150 rebate on my Powerbook by buying at Amazon.com... you might want to check that out.

Re:PowerBooks & Apple

[stacko]

I'm a long-time Linux user and I use a PowerBook for admin and development duties. (I also admin Win2K machines with it.)

It's really outstanding. I can NFS mount drives in either direction, allowing me to pick the most convenient path of building on my laptop or on my dev Linux box. The PB comes with X, so I can fire up any Linux GUI tool I need. I have bash so I can script everything I need. And, best of all, I can mimic my run environment (Tomcat and PostgreSQL) on my laptop for completely portable development.

Hey--guess how I back up my laptop! I use a cron job that invokes rsync over ssh to a Linux box. Oh, the joys of having a Unix-based laptop!

The only awkward part would be switching between Sys V and BSD style commands (ps -elf vs. ps -aux, for example).

Highly, highly, recommended.

Sweet

[one9nine]

Once I get one of these and put Java 1.5 on it, I'll have some sweet Tiger-on-Tiger action.

Re:Sweet

[rjstanford]

Rowr...

Re:Sweet

[vocaro]

Apple is one step ahead of you: Tiger will be bundled with Tiger.

Boy, these code names are getting confusing.

Re:Sweet

[FrankDrebin]

Once I get one of these and put Java 1.5 on it, I'll have some sweet Tiger-on-Tiger action.

And then use JMF to watch Discovery Channel online: Tiger-on-Tiger action on Tiger-on-Tiger action.

I know what I'm gonna do!

[Tibor the Hun]

I'm gonna start saving now, and when those things (PB G5s) come out, they won't seem so expensive.

So, while all the ACs are screaming how these things are too expensive, I'll be running off to the store!

A little clarification...

[njfuzzy]

The PowerBook rumor showed up on some of the Mac rumor sites this morning.

The info comes from a chart and memo about upcoming "PowerBook G5" and "iBook G5" computers to be produced by a contact manufacturer of Apple's for Q2 2005. That is the first grain of salt.

The second is that on Apple's fiscal calendar, it is *currently* Q2, 2005. So if the rumor is true, Apple has less than three months to release a computer which just yesterday was touted in their conference call as "the mother of all thermal challenges... (not) any time soon".

The third is that the PowerBook sales have been slipping because of a lack of advantage over the iBook, and historically, the iBook processor is a generation behind the PowerBook for as long as possible.

Conclusion? This rumor was just a typo. We will be seeing updated PowerBooks and iBooks released near the end of Q2 (in March) but it is very unlikely that the PB will have a G5 under the hood, and impossible that the iBook will.

Move along folks.

Re:A little clarification...

[evilplushtoy]

Not really a little clarification. It's common for companies with "fiscal" calendars (any calendar whose year end is not considered 12/31) to refer to events using a normal calendar year. Even in their own financials they'll refer to "fiscal 3Q" rather than "3Q" much of the time. Convention is to make statements about events that will happen using a calendar year as the "understood" frame of reference, so any statement to 2Q05 does, in fact, mean April - June 2005.

Re:open source?

[TheKidWho]

The core of the OS yes.

But you wont get Aqua or any other special features apple puts in there like spotlight, core image, and whatnot.

Re:Question

[TylerL82]

If you buy a Mac or Panther AFTER THE OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT OF A RELEASE DATE, you will get Tiger for $20.

Tiger hasn't been formally announced yet, so you will not get it for free(cheap) if you buy now.

So, in conclusion, wait until Tiger comes out.
No, wait!
Wait another 2 years for Lion.
And another 2 for Tabby.
And another...
On second thought, don't buy a Mac until Apple stops releasing OS X upgrades completely. That way you'll never have to buy another OS again!

You're much better off buying an Etch-A-Sketch. I hear there's no update coming for those ever.

I don't see g5's being in any powerbook.

[the web]

I see the next gen chip (g6?), the cell processors from IBM going into Powerbooks next. They are 64bit, PPC Architecture, scalable to fit, cheaper (since sony, toshiba are others are dumping millions into their development), and will move to 65nm much more readily.

I could see a g4 speed bump once or twice over the next year.

Ought to be just fine...

[Copley]

My Powerbook G3 400MHz 640MB runs Panther pretty slickly, albeit with a bit of the glitz missing, and a little sluggish on scrolling, etc. Overall it's very useable.

"Long before Longhorn"

[p0rnking]

Isn't Longhorn being built from the ground up, where as Tiger is just "major" updates/enhancements to previous versions of OS X, which were already built ontop of BSD?

Re:"Long before Longhorn"

[Master Foo]

No, not really. The windows source code has been mutilated and expanded upon to the point where now it's millions of lines of spagetti code. I think it's taking so long to develop due to poor code documentation, imiagine all the MS programmers digging through millions of lines of code trying to find the source for the start button. Windows has not been built from the ground up since NT, and that was only with help from Big Blue.

I'm looking forward to Tiger, mainly because I think Apple just has better programmers and they produce a better product than the competition. It's BSD base is open to the public for scrutiny, and has thirty years of development behind it, lending to secure code maturity.

Re:"Long before Longhorn"

[avalys]

Your point being what, that Apple knows how to plan ahead and design their architecture for longevity, extensibility and reuse, while Microsoft's stuff is so crappy that they have to throw it all out every few years and start over?

That's what I thought.

Re:"Long before Longhorn"

[larkost]

There are so many over-simplifications implied in your statement that the only real answer to your question is: No, that isn't it.

Just a small selection:

Longhorn is seeing quite a bit of change, but is not being built from the ground up. That would force them to toss out all old code and programs, and that is not something Microsoft is about to do. Longhorn will mark the biggest loss of compatibility with old programs in Windows history, but it is not going to be anything like what a "ground up" rewrite would cause.

MacOS X does have a BSD-ish layer in it, but much of MacOS X (and the programs on top) is not necessarily built on top of that layer. It is a very complex topic. The better statement would be: MacOS X was built on top of NeXT OS, which derived much of its base from *BSD (mostly FreeBSD 3.x, but some OpenBSD).

Your indication that Tiger is not a ground-up re-write is correct. The huge plumbing changes have already happened in MacOS X, but Tiger is going to add some major "core" changes. These include major re-writes of the text handling system, graphics systems (multiple layers and APIs), and the addition of a number of other system services (CoreData and Spotlight for instance). Many of these core changes are to further Apple's developments into areas that are being touted as major improvements in Longhorn. I am not commenting on who will have the better implementation, just on the broad areas of what they are implementing.

Re:"Long before Longhorn"

[Unreal7000]

no no no, If Longhorn was built from the ground up it wouldn't come out till 2010.

Re:"Long before Longhorn"

[TrueJim]

Yah, I've never liked that Tiger vs. Longhorn comparison either. It seems to me that some of the major "from the ground-up" re-writes in the Mac & PC world have been:

OS/2 [December 1987] -- Of course, this is way back when IBM and Microsoft were collaborating on OS/2, as a successor to DOS.

Windows NT [May 1990] -- Somewhat like MacOS X using BSD/NeXT as its underpinnings, I'm told a lot of this from-the-ground-up development team came from DEC's VMS group, so maybe MacOS X is to Unix as Windows NT is to VMS. :-)

NeXTSTEP OS [1990] -- was this a from-the-ground-up development? I don't recall ever reading about where the original NeXT OS came from.

MacOS 7 (aka System 7) [May 1991] -- previous MacOS's were written in assembler I believe, so OS 7 pretty-much required from-the-ground-up new development, in Pascal, as I recall.

Linux [September 1991] -- Of course, this is a from-the-ground-up development only if you don't consider Linux to be derived from SCO's Unix. (Joke!)

Windows 95 [August 1995] -- I'd call this a from-the-ground up development despite its DOS underpinnings.

MacOS X [March 2001] -- I think it's fair to call this a from-the-ground-up development, despite the BSD and NeXT underpinnings.

So basically, both the Microsoft and Apple world occasionally need to do from-the-ground-up new development, but they're doing it on completely different cycles. That's why Steve's "Tiger vs. Longhorn" comparison is pretty silly; how can you call it a concurrent race when the runners are starting the race at different times? Where I would give Apple some credit is in having made the from-the-ground-up transition at a time and in a way that positions them well for ongoing, modern OS enhancements. The Windows NT architecture dates back to 1990 originally? It's way overdue for an overhaul.

Re:"Long before Longhorn"

[p0rnking]

I wasn't making a point, I was asking a question.
If Longhorn was being built from the ground up, then I can see why it's taking a while to build.
Tiger on the other hand, is just building ontop of what they already have.
But, as the poster below mention, this is not really the case, and my question has been answered.

Re:"Long before Longhorn"

[Leo McGarry]

I have heard that Longhorn is to Windows XP as Panther was to Jaguar. That is, it's a major new release, but not a complete rewrite. There's a new version of the kernel, for example, but it's not a new kernel. And so on.

It's entirely possible that I'm mistaken; I care about Microsoft's plans slightly less than I care about the weather in Singapore. But if I'm right, then no, Longhorn is not being "built from the ground up." It's just an upgrade that's years behind its original release schedule.

Re:"Long before Longhorn"

[mschaef]

"Your point being what, that Apple knows how to plan ahead and design their architecture for longevity, extensibility and reuse, while Microsoft's stuff is so crappy that they have to throw it all out every few years and start over?"

Apple is the same company that took ten years and several totally abortive attempts to develop a replacement for their original MacOS [1]. Once they failed at that one too many times, they said to hell with it, bought their next generation OS and released it in the form of a product that couldn't run any existing MacOS software, except through emulation. While their technical staff was busy screwing this up, their business staff managed to handle the clone issue in the worst way possible: they waited umpteen years too long, licenced a couple vendors (including their primary parts supplier), and pulled the rug out from under them when they realized they were getting undercut. Thus leaving their licencees and anybody that invested in them holding the bag.

These guys are occasionally brilliant and Mac OS X is nice product (I know, because I own a Mac), but it's a miracle they're still in business at all. 1] It's worth pointing out that Microsoft's next generation OS (Windows NT) was released in 1993, 7 or 8 years before OSX 10.0. They developod this, despite the fact that they fell out with their partner (IBM and OS/2 NT) and had to maintain two kernels (NT and 9x). Both kernels ended up running both 16 and 32-bit software. Windows isn't without its share of problems, but Microsoft has classically done a far better job of delivering product than Apple has.

With respect to throwing stuff out, even Longhorn retains the existing USER/GDI graphics layer. Avalon is a replacement, but it's the first replacement of the USER.DLL/GDI.DLL API in 20 years (and it's based on DirectX stuff, so it's not totally a replacement even now).

Re:"Long before Longhorn"

[rf600r]

1. No

2. Your point is ____?

Re:"Long before Longhorn"

[naelurec]

Yah .. thats all fine and good, but lets not forget that Apple as a company was very lack-luster before the second coming of Jobs in 1997. The company during the early/mid 90's lacked any type of vision. Infact, IIRC, at one point they only had 1 or 2 developers working on MacOS.

Since that point in time, I think they have done a pretty good job as a company. Jobs in those first few months changed out the board of directors, axed lackluster product lines, got some cash and renewed interest from Microsoft (Office 98), and axed the failed clone experiment. He put up the online Apple Store, attempted to revigorate Apple exclusive displays in various retailers and transformed the entire line of computers coming out with a new processor, new operating system, new look, pushing industry-wide standards (usb, firewire, etc..), etc..

Needless to say, those first two years of him returning to the healm complete transformed Apple back to the innovative company that it was back in the early 80's..

Granted, I am not going to get into "who is better, Apple or Microsoft" as both companies have established themselves in different sectors of the market and as a result, expectations are different (backwards compatability requirements being perhaps the largest one).

Apple is the same company that took ten years and several totally abortive attempts to develop a replacement for their original MacOS [1].

I think I could make a strong argument that Apple is NOT the same company that had all of those issues.

Re:"Long before Longhorn"

[Anonymous Coward]

There are so many over-simplifications implied in your statement that the only real answer to your question is: No, that isn't it.

I'll take over simplifications before incorrect details, any day.

MacOS X does have a BSD-ish layer in it, but much of MacOS X (and the programs on top) is not necessarily built on top of that layer.

Huh? The OSX kernel is based on the Mach kernel with parts of FreeBSD kernels ported in to that. The traditional UNIX userspace utilities are mostly BSD derived.

It is a very complex topic.

Well thank bloody Christ we have you explaining it, hey!

The better statement would be: MacOS X was built on top of NeXT OS, which derived much of its base from *BSD (mostly FreeBSD 3.x, but some OpenBSD).

NeXT OS, first released in 1989 (thats nineteen EIGHTY nine) with the last release in 1995 had some of its base from OpenBSD, which was not first released October 1996?

Riiiiiightttt...

"Read" this, it has pretty pictures.

Re:"Long before Longhorn"

[mschaef]

"I think I could make a strong argument that Apple is NOT the same company that had all of those issues."

I agree. It's just too bad they're in as difficult a position as they are.

Re:"Long before Longhorn"

[the_2nd_coming]

you are such a nit picker. he meant BSD 3.X and you know it.

Re:"Long before Longhorn"

[vallette]

I'm curious, what does "It's just too bad they're in as difficult a position as they are." mean? If being in a difficult position means; having $5B cash on hand, record stock prices, record sales, a growing market share, a corner on the online music business, a corner of the MP3 player market, an increasing presence in the enterprise space, a stable, secure OS, tons of good press, and the ability to produce functional and beautiful hardware, then don't feel to sorry for them, I think they can manage just fine without your pity.

Re:"Long before Longhorn"

[Altus]

I think you can understand his meaning better if you tried to imagine what the world would be like if steve had never left apple.

Imagine a newton that wasnt released too early and was crafted by some quality designers... there might not be a plam.

think of the market share they would have if they had moved to a next style os long ago.

Imagine all the other cool gagets that might have been invented.

now you might say that steve jobs had to leave apple and return inorder to mature a little and things wouldnt have been all roses with him around the whole time... but just imagine if in the time in between apple hadnt been run by a bunch of monkeys... they would be an even bigger player... probably in many markets.

Re:"Long before Longhorn"

[mschaef]

I'm modded a troll for posting facts, and the guy who said "...Microsoft's stuff is so crappy that they have to throw it all out every few years and start over?" gets modded +5, Insightful? Sheesh, Sorry to disagree with your bias.

Re:"Long before Longhorn"

[mschaef]

Yes. This is an accurate statement of my intent.

Re:"Long before Longhorn"

[mschaef]

If being in a difficult position means; having $5B cash on hand,

$5B cash on hand means a lot less than it seems when your biggest competition doesn't have a hardware business, has $70B cash on hand, and 20 times the market share.
record stock prices,

Which are not an indicator of long term success.

record sales,

Of what? The iPod is hardly a platform on which to build a technology company. Scratch that, it's hardly a platform, given that nobody else can make compatible devices or sell compatible songs

a growing market share

Really? That explains why Apple's growth in the computer segment isn't even keeping up with industry-wide growth.

, a corner on the online music business,

They had a corner on the GUI computer market 15 years ago, tried to hold onto it a little too hard and now have a corner of the GUI computer market. They're doing the same thing with their FairPlay licensing system. Since Apple depends on hardware margins, they can't see them eroded by competition in that market. Thus, they're closing off the platform and suffocating it, compared to more open competition. This is exactly what happend in 1985-1995 with MacOS.

a corner of the MP3 player market,

How long will that last as the competiton gets better and people realize that their music can be used on more than one brand of player?

an increasing presence in the enterprise space,

Slooowly increasing, and only in an absolute sense, not a relative sense.

a stable, secure OS,

Linux is stable and secure. It has been for years. Where has it gotten in the desktop space, while Windows was continually growing market share?

While stable and secure is a really good thing to have (particularly these days), it's not necessarily an indicator of success. Also, Windows is narrowing the gap fast enough that if and when (very unlikely) it actually becomes the key component of OS buying choices, Apple's lead won't matter.

tons of good press,

Which is worthless, compared to market share, cash flow, margins, and a defensible business. Apple may have market share in the MP3 arena, but they also have everybody else in the industry trying to erode it. A more open strategy would level the playing field a little, dont'cha think?

and the ability to produce functional and beautiful hardware,

Ferrari has that too. The only reason they make it work is that they don't have to worry about compatibility.

In the computer space, there have been tons of wonderful systems (both software and hardware) that have fallen, thanks to the fact that design and technical excellense are neither necessary nor sufficient for market success. The market doesan't collectively value design enough and consumers don't understand technical excellence enough.

then don't feel to sorry for them, I think they can manage just fine without your pity.

It's not so much pity for them as pity for the whole industry. We'd all be better off if Microsoft had more competition in the desktop and commodify server spaces.

I'm not going to predict Apple's doom, but I will predict a hugely diminished marketshare in the music player arena and more of the same borderline irrelevant marketshare in the computer arena, over the next 5-10 years.



This is so damn frustrating since they're making the same mistake again. I just want to know why they think it'll be different this time. (Surely they aren't happy with 2%)

Re:"Long before Longhorn"

[mschaef]

Oh... and this time, this is a troll (if anybody sees it).


I would love nothing more to see a set of sound set of arguments explaining why Apple will have more success with FairPlay/iPod and increase their marketshare of MasOS

Digitimes not reliable

[adzoox]

DigiTimes is NOT a reliable source. They often have information wrong. They said Apple would have 15.4" wide laptops - they remained from the titanium to the aluminum enclosures at 15.2"

They also stated that the 12" PowerBooks would pick up key illumination - none yet.

They also have said something about Tablet Macs in production.

Other problems with the chart. Quanta is also making the Mac Mini - not Foxconn. As far as I know Foxconn just makes cables and circuit boards.

As someone mentioned - it was clearly stated that one of Apple's biggest challeges EVER is the PowerBook G5 thermal issues, but they continued to hint that we WILL see one this year.

I imagine PowerBooks go to 1.75Ghz first THEN we see a 1.8Ghz and a 2.0 Ghz G5 released next to 2.75 and 3.0Ghz G5 desktops.

More like the G5M

[Caiwyn]

Unless IBM is working on an even smaller version of the current 90nm G5 to be released this year, I think it's much more likely that the H2 2005 will bring us Freescale's dual-core G4 chip, and that Apple will call it the G5M.

Re:More like the G5M

[Leo McGarry]

I'd bet you my last penny that Apple will never call anything the "G5M."

Apple is all about branding. The company makes conscious decisions to establish strong, recognizable brands and to hold on to them. For example, consider the iPod family. Apple has the iPod, the iPod mini and now the iPod shuffle. There's no iPod 2, no iPod XL, no iPod IL-99, no iPod 90210. Apple, in general, eschews alphabet soup.

G5 is a brand. If you notice, Apple has enormous graphics for the "G5" logotype. G4 was a brand, too. There were lots of processors from Motorola, IBM and Freescale that were all branded "G4."

The idea that Apple would ever name anything "G5M" goes against all that. It doesn't sound right to me.

Re:Question

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember, it is only a ripoff if you have to pay to update Windows every 3 or 4 years. It is not a rip off if you have to pay to update MAC OSX every year and a half!

java java java 1.5

[acomj]

Apple isn't going to release java 1.5 until tiger. Disapointing, considering its been out for 4-5 months now. Even though tiger seems like its worth the upgrade anyway , I wish they wouldn't make java tied into the upgrade.

Remember what Steve said

Developers Developers Developers.

Oh that was a different Steve, Dancing Steve?

Re:java java java 1.5

[valkraider]

Actually, it is Java 5.0 (they changed the name). And it has been out (final version) less than 4 months (as of now, being the middle of January). Update 1 came out in December.

But Apple is not the only one who will take their time. IBM will not release it in their Websphere line for a while as well.

People need to understand that Java 5.0 is a HUGE change from Java 1.4 (which is why they changed the name). Companies will need to do extensive testing to make sure that it will work with their products.

I think it took Apple longer than the 7 or so months we are looking at here to bring out Java 1.4.x - as OSX was still using 1.3.x LONG after the rest of the world had moved to 1.4. And the 1.4 to 5.0 jump is much much larger than the 1.3 to 1.4 jump.

But like a previous post says, Tiger on Tiger will be some nice action...

Gold star for you

[sczimme]

Easy, just have marketing gussy it up as a "feature", not a bug.

You get a gold star simply for using the phrase "gussy up" in a sentence. :-)

PS Now you're on the trolley!

Tiger commercial idea

[allanc]

I'm envisioning a longhorn cow grazing stupidly in a field. A tiger sneaks up and noisily devours it.

Then, later, RedHat could make a competing commercial. Same thing happens, except after the tiger attack, a fat little penguin waddles up and eats the tiger.

--AC

Re:Tiger commercial idea

[bluGill]

Isn't there a tiger fish that a penguin eats? I'm not up on the eating habits of penguins, but someone should check. Someone who cares to spend more than the 30 seconds I just did on the idea.

Re:Tiger commercial idea

[Moofie]

More like the penguin jumps on the tiger, starts furiously gnawing away, ant the tiger couldn't. care. less.

Re:Question

[Jerk City Troll]

Usually, if you buy a Mac just before the next major revision is released, you get the new version for free. I bought my mom an iMac loaded with Jaguar a couple of months before Panther came out and I was given a voucher for a free upgrade.

MacOS X Kzinti

[allanc]

So does anyone besides me want Apple to name a MacOS X version 'Kzinti'?

Re:MacOS X Kzinti

[Maserati]

Since I'm out of mod points.... yes, yes I would.

If you want to reformat a hard drive, you'll run /sbin/screamandleap/

Re:MacOS X Kzinti

[AddressException]

No.

Re:MacOS X Kzinti

[fgb]

or Kilrathi

Re:MacOS X Kzinti

[stevejobsjr]

No

You and I, our boats look very similar

[gimpboy]

I pretty much only use linux (not a software developer though), and I've been looking to get a powerbook. I was waiting to see what happend at macworld before I bought one. I was a little disappointed. According to the buyers guide at macrumors.com, the powerbook series is way overdue for a new release.

Everything I've read (check out macslash.com from the last couple days) suggest that the g5 powerbook wont be released any time soon. The rumor mill suggests speed bumps, official support for the dvd+rw media and a couple other things. I'm about to throw my towel in and get one. It will be useful when I have to start workin on my thesis in the next couple months.

Re:You and I, our boats look very similar

[xutopia]

I'm in the same situation. I'm a developer and I use linux almost 100% of the time (only exception is when I want to play a game). I was very disapointed that there weren't any G5 powerbooks at Macworld and I think I'll hold on to my money until they do finally come out.

Re:You and I, our boats look very similar

[Moofie]

Were you also disappointed that there was no cure for cancer?

Apple has been shouting at the top of their lungs "NO G5 POWERBOOKS!" for a year now. Sure, they'll come out some day, but it's not like Apple's been setting unrealistic expectations...

Re:You and I, our boats look very similar

[Ohreally_factor]

I was mildly disappointed as well, though I didn't have high hopes to see a G5 PB this time around.

There's a broadcasting tradeshow coming up this spring (having a brain fart and can't remember the name), WWDC in June, and there's the fact that Apple does not always wait for these events to announce new products. They have in the past just called a press conference and started selling/taking orders.

64 bit everything?

[JimBobJoe]

Will everything in Tiger be 64bit, and, more importantly, will it ship with a 64bit MachKernel?

(I keep on getting conflicting information on this....)

Re:64 bit everything?

[Leo McGarry]

No. "From G3 to G5, from iBook to Xserve, there is just one kernel and set of core system libraries for Tiger."

There's absolutely no reason to have a 64-bit kernel, anyway. Why would you need to address more than 2 GB of RAM in your kernel?

Re:64 bit everything?

[Halo1]

No, not everything in Tiger will be 64 bit. Oversimplified: command line programs will be compilable for 64 bit, GUI programs won't be.

The kernel in Panther is already 64 bit in the most important sense, in that it can handle more than 4GB of memory. The second-most important aspect (support for user space programs with 64 bit address spaces) is being added in Tiger. I'm not sure what other 64 bitness you'd want in a kernel (apart from filesystem support, but that has nothing to do with G5 or 64 bit processors specifically and is already largely supported).

Re:64 bit everything?

[the_2nd_coming]

it will run programs that perform 64 bit integer math and allow programs to address 64 bit memory space.

Re:64 bit everything?

[Leo McGarry]

No, definitely not correct. There's only one Tiger. The same OS runs on G5s and on older machines.

Smart Folders? Smart EVERYTHING

[System.out.println()]

The trend in Tiger is moving towards Smart . iPhoto has Smart Albums. Finder has Smart Folders. Mail has smart Folders. Address Book has Smart Groups. Probably a bunch that I've missed.

Some third-party developers have already taken it to heart. NewsFire recently added Smart Feeds, which combine news items from different feeds based on criteria - every news item from the last 3 hours containing the word iPod, say. And Colloquy's developer is working on adding Smart Channels, combining messages from any IRC channels you're currently a part of.

It's most definitely a good trend. This shit is cool.

Re:Smart Folders? Smart EVERYTHING

[Leo McGarry]

The only one I can think of that you missed is the one that started it all: smart playlists in iTunes.

NetNewsWire also has smart feeds, but they're implemented in a different way. You can create a feed that runs, say, a Blogdigger query. The results come to you as an RSS feed. The downside of this is that Blogdigger search results are really ugly as RSS feeds go. But that's an implementation detail.

NNW also has regular smart feeds, of course, where it aggregates entries from your own subscriptions based on criteria. I'm fairly certain that the program uses Apple's SearchKit for that.

Re:Smart Folders? Smart EVERYTHING

[furball]

The funny thing is that this isn't new. The "smart" folder stuff can be seen in much earlier applications. If you recall, Evolution (the groupware/email client) had it. That was based on VM (XEmac's mail application).

The idea of a logical grouping of thing collected from many different physical locations isn't new. It's just that modern techniques for collecting these diseparate data elements are faster.

This is part of the future to come, not with Tiger but other things in general. Technology has moved in 3 separate stages: infrastructure, collection, and searching. We're now at stage 3, searching, because during phase 2 we completely inundated ourselves with data and now need to sort out the entire mess.

Re:Question

[Anonymous Coward]

So skip a version, and pay for a Mac OSX update in 3 years. Last I heard, Steve Jobs did not personally come to peoples houses and hold a gun to their heads to force them to upgrade.

Yuo won't get any feature enhancements, but you will still get security patches for the older versions.

Re:Question

[Anonymous Coward]

> Going from 10.3 to 10.4 costs $129? That is a huge freaking ripoff.

Going from Windows NT 5.0 (AKA 2000) to Windows NT 5.1 (AKA XP) costs $99? That is a huge freaking ripoff.

Re:open source?

[Matt Clare]

Here's the source for the UNIX corse of OS X: http://opendarwin.org/

But, as the other reponce noted, the GUI and some of the Apps are closed.

G5 PBook - a third possibility exists:

[Junior J. Junior III]

Direct from the article:

A third possibility exists: DigiTimes has written 'G5' when it should have typed 'G4'.

Certainly, Apple wants to move the PowerBook line to the G5 and will do so as soon as possible. But Freescale's upcoming 90nm G4-class MPC7448 chip has been seen as a more likely candidate than the G5 for the next PowerBook and/or iBook revisions.

So, basically, who knows what's going to happen?

3GHz or bust, I say.

Re:Windows XP question re: user migration to new P

[Master Foo]

It works like this: Dump the idea of ever buying another virus infected, spyware ridden PC again, buy an iMac G5 and a copy of Move2Mac, plug in and enjoy a better computer!

Re:G4 faster at the same clock speed?

[Halo1]

It's true. Several instruction which are executed in one cycle on a G4, are cracked on the G5. Many instructions also have a longer latency on the G5. However, the G4 (until now) has a worse memory interface, which means that applications that process huge data sets are still slower clock for clock on a G4 than on a G5.

Re:Windows XP question re: user migration to new P

[beuges]

Start->Programs->Accessories->System tools->File and settings transfer wizard

You then choose if you want to back up or restore settings. You select if the source and destination are connected by a direct cable, or if the source/destination is a disk drive or network share or local directory. You then select which files and settings you want to transfer. These include settings for messenger, outlook, etc, display properties, file associations, and special folders like my documents. The wizard then copies the selected items to the destination (or from, if you're doing a restore).

According to the wizard, it works from win95 all the way to windows XP.

You don't need a full gig for OS X

[caveat]

I still haven't upgraded from the 512 that my G4 came with, and it really seems to do just fine running Mail, Camino, iTunes, Word, AIM/Yahoo/BitchX and MT-NewsWatcher all at once - the hard drive actually goes to sleep quite often. It does start to thrash if I try and run VPC on top of all of that, but for anything you'd want to use a mini for, a half a gig ($75 extra?) should be plenty.

Oh, and a 1.25GHz G4 isn't exactly NOT blazing...no, it's not as fast as a P4 3.6, but again, for anything you'd want to use a mini for, it's more than adequate.

Re:You don't need a full gig for OS X

[caveat]

Actually, I have a dual 1.25 G4 tower, which probably helps the "snappiness" factor a LOT - the procs usually have a pretty balanced load; I never get hung doing one thing.

The drive's a 7200RPM ATA/100, it's about as fast as I'd get without going SCSI

Before Longhorn, who cares?

[Angry Black Man]

"Tiger, after Jobs said it was still on track for a q2 2005 release (long before Longhorn...)"

I'm sure Microsoft is really scared. OSX is always threatening Windows market share...

Re:Before Longhorn, who cares?

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple having outpaced MS in major OS releases by 3:1 since XP (counting Jaguar?, Panther, Tiger), Microsoft may not be "scared", but they ought to be embarrassed!

They're being bitch slapped by the perpetually dying underdog. Make that *former* underdog.

Re:Windows XP question re: user migration to new P

[kilfarsnar]

Not very well, unfortunately. I have run the wizard twice, and in neither case did it migrate all my settings. The files came over ok, but the settings for the various programs I selected did not. Disappointing, but honestly, not surprising.

Re:Question

[Blakflag]

We have 10.2.8, and I wanted to get Safari 1.2 to test some stuff with. When we tried to update, Apple told us Safari 1.0.3 weas the latest version available for that OS.

I'm not trying to troll.. but that doesnt seem right. Its not exactly "keeping you up-to-date" if the most critical apps people use are not kept fresh. In fact it smacks of OS upgrade lock-in. I'm not a Mac guru, so I may just be missing something and please correct me.

Is this similar to the whole Linux glib thing where you needed the same version of the system libraries as the applications link to? That glib dll-Hell always aggravated me.

Re:Question

[log0n]

Actually, you can get around this. Install the old OS. Then boot the upgrade CDs. Once you get to the dialog about choosing the disc you want to install to, format that disc. You're already inside the install well enough to 'qualify' as being valid, but you can peform a full install w/o going through the upgrade or leaving old unnecessary data.

The OS X just gets faster on the same hardware.

[Matt Clare]

From the article: "So far, each Mac OS X update has improved performance, an admirable trend that we expect to continue."

I remember I became a switcher just as 10.2 was coming out and all the Mac boards had these old graphics industry people going on about OSX being slower than OS9, and how good OS9 was...... OS 9 was never good.

But that first Mac I had was a G3 PowerBook, and sure enough, as the new OSs came out it just got faster!

I guess that's a function of the opensource core, people writting good code. Period. Not just writting stuff to work well on what the have in the pipe.

Re:The OS X just gets faster on the same hardware.

[Fahrenheit 450]

Aw, come on. It's plenty good compared to DOS 4.0. Then again, a pile of index cards and a golf pencil is good compared to DOS 4.0.

Re:The OS X just gets faster on the same hardware.

[mh101]

Plus, I would suspect that a majority of the speed increase between versions was due to the release of Quartz Extreme, in whichever version it was added. I think it would be cool to see a benchmark of the same OS, on the same hardware, comparing a system with Quartx Extreme to plain old unaccellerated Quartz.

Whoever thought of the idea of offloading the UI's graphics operations to the video card was a genius. Unless it was a Microsoft employee, that is... ;)

Re:The OS X just gets faster on the same hardware.

[Ohreally_factor]

No, because those with older machines and older GPUssmaller VRAM pretty much all reported performance increases. Apple optimized the code.

I think the closest you might get to your benchmark test would be to switch out graphics cards in the same machine.

Tin Foil?

[lxt]

Perhaps a new market for guys (and gals) could open up for tin foil underwear? Not sure about the fragility of the foil though... :)

Re:G4 faster at the same clock speed?

[First Person]

Performance is, of course, a function of the task that is running. I don't know how to answer your specific question, but there is a general comparison of the G4 and G5 here that may be of some interest.

It's the bus speed, stupid

[arekusu]

A 1.5 GHz G4 PowerBook has a 167Mhz bus.

A theoretical 1.8 GHz G5 PowerBook, if clocked at the same 1:3 rate as the iMac (vs 1:2 in the PowerMac) would have a 600 MHz bus.

That is a huge improvement.

HUGE.

Re:It's the bus speed, stupid

[willy_me]

The new G4 will have dual cores (probably ~1.5GHz) and a built in memory controller. As a result, the bus speed plays a far smaller role as it only has to communicate with peripherals and not memory. Overall, the performance should at least double over the current 1.5GHz G4.

Re:It's the bus speed, stupid

[MojoStan]

In addition, the new G4 will also implement the new Rapid IO bus. I cannot find much clear info on Rapid IO via Google, but one speed I found was "8-bit 500MHz."

I don't think it's such a bad idea to modernize the architecture of a good existing core. It worked well for Intel's Pentium-M, didn't it?

Re:Question

[daveschroeder]

The price for education/government is US$69.

Also, many large institutions, such as the University of Wisconsin System, have an even cheaper deal: we sell full versions of Mac OS X to faculty staff and students for $49.

Departmental/institutional purchasers can obtain a license for the latest version of Mac OS X for a period of 3 years for $69; in other words, they are licensed to run any full upgrades of Mac OS X for free for three years, at which time they have a permanent license for whatever the latest version is at that time.

Same for Mac OS X Server: unlimited is $499 (instead of $999), and 10-client (10-client applies ONLY to AppleShare file sharing clients; everything else is unlimited in every way) is $249 (instead of $499). Users can also, for the same price as that particular version of OS X Server, purchase a maintenance contract which gives them the latest version of OS X Server for free for the next three years.

This three year deal usually equates into getting two more updates to the OS for nothing. So it's not always just "$129".

Re:Question

[Sophrosyne]

It does have to do with fixes found in panther that were not in jaguar- they are not just minor fixes, and they affect many aspects of the OS. There are API fixes as well.
Although the naming scheme is the same, Panther is it's own O.S.- some developers can write apps that function on both operating systems- but they don't have to.
Apple would have to maintain two very different versions of Safari. Safari on panther is a little different as Apple has split Safari from Webcore- leaving webcore available for any application to use.
Safari 1.0.3 does work, and it wouldn't be practical for Apple to support 2 versions of Safari on two different O.S.es. Firefox may be the best alternative to Safari.

Not sure I want one...

[AssFace]

I should say that I would love to have a PowerBook with dual G5s and 10GB of RAM with 300GB of SATA in it - but what I mean when I say that I am not sure I want a G5 PB is that I know it is going to be warm if not HOT.
My current G4 PB gets hot enough to be uncomfortable at time - this is especially annoying if I am running background programs that are designed to be processor intensive.

While it would be great to have the G5, I am not sure it is something that I NEED - the G4 works really well as it is and I think I would rather see it drop in price than go up in speed at this point.

That said - there has been talk of a G3 based unit that has some additions (something by IBM or Motorola? I forget which, but I think it was the latter of the two) which makes it much like the G5 in that it is faster/better than the G4, and it would be well suited to the PBs in that it is smaller/thinner and uses less power (and therefore puts off less heat).

That said, they can never release something with a G3 in it and call it better than the G4, even if it is - people will just smack themselves about the face and whine about how they want the G5 because as we can all clearly see: 5 is bigger than 3, even for very large values of 3.

So perhaps this "G5" PB is actually using this new superG3 chip, which gives G5-like performance, and therefore they are going to come up with some new name for it - like G5m or something - but it technically isn't the G5 chip that we know in our workstations/servers?

In the end, regardless of what they do, I am going to wait about a year on it to avoid issues in the first generation that always seem to come about (said as I sit here and type on a first generation Al book with white spots - but I still love it).

About time

[digitalgimpus]

I've been waiting forever for a G5 laptop.

The G4 is a great chip... but the G5 is sooo much better.

Seeing it in the new iMac, and Mac Mini, made me think they have been getting closer and closer to toppling the heat issue.

My hopes for the laptop are as follows:
- Price range from $1,499-$2,899
- Ship with 512 MB RAM
- USB2/Firewire 800 Ports
- 15" display or better
- Decent graphics card.
- MiniPCI slot for network card, so you can upgrade
- CPU @ 2 GHz
- 7200 RPM ATA/100 HD via Hitachi

Re:About time

[dj_whitebread]

It's actually not in the Mac mini. Those still have G4's. Mac mini page.

Re:About time

[easter1916]

I put a 60GB (unformatted) one of those Hitachi 7200 RPM drives in my G4/17" @ 1GHz along with a gigabyte of RAM... the performance increase was (purely subjective) ~25%... very welcome.

Folders

[simpl3x]

Folders and such are simply constructs, and any look through the intrerfaces literature over the past 20 years will have discussions about different approaches to organization. Look at Be, there incorporation of the database into the file system really performs exactly the same function. And, if I am correct the developer is now at Apple.

Re:Windows XP question re: user migration to new P

[Leo McGarry]

Start->Programs->Accessories->System tools->File and settings transfer wizard

Golly, how intuitive!

(Sorry, I know I shouldn't make fun of Microsoft's "Start" menu. It's like picking on the retarded kid.)

Not. A. Chance.

[ArbitraryConstant]

"Tucked away in a discussion about Apple's manufacturing partners are references to an iBook G5 and a PowerBook G5, which will ship in Q2 2005."

Even if there were a PowerBook G5 on the way, and that's a big 'if' for H1... there's no way it would happen for the iBooks in that timeframe. None whatsoever. Everybody knows how Apple feels about their market segmentation.

Poor reporting by ZDNet

[LittleLebowskiUrbanA]

They mention that Setup Assistant will be able to (future tense) migrate all of your settings to a new computer like XP does now (sometimes). Bullshit. It's here and it works now, ZDnet.

Re:I have a 5 figure sum...

[generic-man]

I bought a 12 inch Powerbook last May. I wouldn't recommend one to my worst enemy.

The G4 Powerbooks are extremely malleable since they're made out of aluminum. You can run your finger down the edge and feel where the metal flexes due to the presence of a tiny screw. I've been able to bend the metal around the power connector just by carrying the laptop around in a padded case.

The plastic parts, such as the ethernet port, are also prone to breaking. Apple wanted $700 this morning for a new logic board because their piece-of-shit ethernet connector was missing a clip that fell out during normal use. The port still works, by the way.

I'll Believe It...

[loyukfai]

When Apple files the lawsuits... : )

actually...

[not_a_product_id]

... the Mac Mini has a G4

but There IS an Etch-A-Sketch update!

[microcars]

"You're much better off buying an Etch-A-Sketch. I hear there's no update coming for those ever.

here's an update that allows you to use a Serial Mouse with your Etch-A-Sketch!

sorry, OT....I'll take my lumps.

Re:I have a 5 figure sum...

[valkraider]

You must have a different powerbook than we do. We own a 1Ghz 12inch and a 1.5Ghz 15inch.

Nothing like what you describe.

eye candy

[mbbac]

The much-touted features Spotlight and Dashboard may end up just another layer of eye candy, further moving Apple away from its halcyon days of interface design based on good science, rather than style.

What is this guy thinking? Spotlight has very, very little to do with eye candy. The only way you can associate it with eye candy is the way it was implemented in System Preferences where search result icons are highlighted with a quite literal spotlight. Other than that it does the vast majority of its work behind the scenes. And where it does have a GUI, it is a straight-forward interface that is based on science and lets user find files and documents in a fraction of the time it would normally take.

Re:Steve 'Rim' Jobs...

[LostCauz]

Actually that box is aluminum...

Re:Question

[mr100percent]

Windows doesn't rip you off? Of course they do, their updates are far slower in arriving, and I hear all the gripes about how their service packs break the OS. Farther between is a baad thing. Apple's software updates also add plenty of features, go read their feature lists.

Re:I have a 5 figure sum...

[generic-man]

Because Apple won't sell me one for less than $700, and they don't consider themselves liable under the 3-year warranty I bought.

Re:Question

[Enrique1218]

Apple on occasion will allow users to obtain a free version a major update if they bought the computer within a certain timeframe. For instance, when the PowerMac G5 were first introduced only 10.2 was available and 10.3 was due later. So, when panther was released, powermac G5 customers got a "free" ($20 for shipping) upgrade CD.

Re:I have a 5 figure sum...

[generic-man]

I do have a different powerbook. Mine's a 1.33 GHz 12 inch model with a bad hard drive. Hopefully I'll have it back soon.

Re:I have a 5 figure sum...

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

I bought a 12 inch Powerbook last May. I wouldn't recommend one to my worst enemy.

I picked mine up used. I use it every day at work, and at home, and carry it back and forth. It has one ding in the front that was there when I got it, but has not had any hardware problems at all. It gets banged around plenty too. I've dropped it three or four times already because my case strap kept coming loose.

Even though I have not had any problems, I'm planning on going with the applecare extension when I've had it for a year old (coming up soon). The plan is not too expensive considering how much parts cost for them. I highly recommend it to anyone who buys a powerbook.

Re:Question

[mo^]

the gripes you "hear" about??

well, thanks for your informed opinion on the matter..

Re:Windows XP question re: user migration to new P

[evolve75]

Probably because unlike OS X, where all application settings are under the home directory (in ~/Library) and in /Library, many Windows apps save the preferences back in x:\Program Files (one reason for needing adminstrator privileges to run some programs). Windows XP/2K *does* have a standard location for app preference settings (under x:\Documents and Settings), but as long as this is not followed by all apps, this will remain an issue.

Re:Question

[cayenne8]

" You don't have to pay for updates to the OS- but each major revision like OS X 10.3, OS X 10.4 costs $129.00."

Or...just go on eBay, and you can get it for about half the retail price...plus, no tax.

:-)

Dual G4...

[Mistah Blue]

I wonder if that new dual-core G4 could be behind the rumors of a dualie G4 PowerBook...

Re:Question

[rednever]

Apple's kind of seen the error of their ways with Safari after taking a beating from web developers.

From what I understand (sorry, no links available), they will continue to update the WebCore engine under 10.3 to match 10.4. The only stuff you'll need 10.4 for are the RSS features.

PowerBooks as Linux machine?

[leoxx]

I am looking for a new laptop to run Linux on. How does the PowerBook compare to, say, a Thinkpad when it comes to hardware support? Right now I have a Thinkpad T21 and it is absolutely fantastic with Linux. Except for the modem (which I don't use) it is more functional under Linux than it is under Windows. If I get a PowerBook, would I have to use Apple's OS to take advantage of the hardware or do the PowerPC distributions have good support for the built in hardware? Also, how hard is it to swap hard drives on a PowerBook? And finally, what is Apple's attitude towards Linux users, do they cut off all support for the hardware if you don't use their OS?

Re:PowerBooks as Linux machine?

[bigredradio]

Linux on x86 is better supported than on PPC. However, once you are running the OS, you will not see much difference. PPC is more stable hardware, but LinuxPPC is not as stable as x86 Linux. (it's kinda a wash).

Try using yellowdog linux. It's a redhat clone for Macs. It seems to be the most on top of macintosh hardware support. Debian and some of the others support macs, but that support is lumped into their philosophy of porting to any hardware platform (including old Amigas and MIPS). Yellowdog is the only one with a narrow focus on Linux for PPC.

Or you can run OSX and Virtual PC. I have SLES 9 and Fedora Core2 running in virtual instances. (Been trying to get Solaris x86 up, but it's a pain). As far as swapping out harddrives? Do you plan on doing this often. Seems that it's not that common of a thing to do, but I am sure there are instructions you can google for when the time comes.
Good Luck.

OMGoshes they charge for major updates?!?!

[MachineShedFred]

Going from Windows 2000 to Windows XP costs $200? That's a huge freaking ripoff.

Seriously. Each 10.x release has just about that much change and feature adds in them. Also, Apple doesn't force the upgrade on you if you don't want it UNLIKE Microsoft (see: Microsoft Licensing 6.0)

On the upside,

[Thud457]

You get a stylish "mark of the beast" Apple logo seared right onto your privates.

EDGY!

Re:Question

[Anonymous Coward]

That is absolutely INCORRECT. You cannot perform an erase and install from an UPGRADE disc... period.

You CAN erase the disc from Disk Utility (Installer menu > Open Disk Utility), but you cannot then install the OS onto an empty hard drive.

Upgrade discs also do not allow you to select "Archive & Install" or "Erase & Install" because they lack the "Options" button. You can only upgrade from an existing version of Mac OS X on that particular hard drive.

Re:Question

[MoneyT]

Actualy windows does. While paid updates are farther away from each other, they cost ~3x as much or more. And the mac OS includes free updates too. Since I got panther last year, I've received 7 updates, all of which have fixed things and or added some sort of functionality that was missing. I havne't had to pay for a single one of them.

Re:I have a 5 figure sum...

[generic-man]

I have AppleCare, but Apple still wants $700 for the logic board anyway. They claim that because their ethernet port chipped away months ago, that counts as "physical damage" and is not subject to the terms of Apple's warranty.

Now I've saved a lot by buying warranties for laptops in the past. If your LCD screen dies, that alone covers the price of any extended warranty plan. That happened to me with my old Compaq laptop ($100 for a two-year replacement plan; a week after the extended period started, the screen died).

I want kernel changes more than smart folders.

[JQuick]

Some potentially dramatic speed improvements are in store for those with Multiple CPUs.

The Darwin kernel in Panther and before has two funnels one for the network stack and another for the rest of the kernel. Funnels are a kind of lock that prevent multiple threads from executing particular code simultaneously. Multiple threads may acquire a particular funnel simultaneously, but the kernel ensure that only one thread at a time is active. While a lock limits code re-entrancy, a funnel limits co-residency.

It is similar to the old Big Giant Lock in the FreeBSD kernel (slightly better than 2 Big Honkin' Locks). Tiger will roll out more fine grained locking which should have the greatest impact in improving IO perfromance

stick to os x

[mulescent]

stick with os x unless you have a really compelling reason to run linux on PPC. i tried (successfully) running yellow dog linux a while back. however, as of version 3, there was not a java browser plugin available for _any_ flavor of linux on ppc. that was a deal-breaker for me.

that being said, i own a powerbook, run os x on it, and love it

Re:Smart Folder Privacy

[Minstrel Boy]

I'm very curious as to how Apple is going to implement the search features so as to preserve privacy across user accounts. Are they going to have user-specific metadatabases, or a single database with user tags on each record, or what?

KeS

Re:Too long a wait

[Minstrel Boy]

No she's not. ;)

KeS

PowerBook G5 in Q2 Unlikely

[ekmo]

DigiTimes reported that that both the PowerBook and iBook G5 will be released in Q2. This is rather unlikely, as Apple has historically released new "Power" models at least one full quarter before releasing corresponding "i" models (for example the PowerMac G5 was released on June 9 while the iMac G5 was not released until August 31).

Also, fifty-three minutes into Apple's conference call discussing Q1 2005 financial results last Wednesday, Executive Vice President of Worldwide Sales and Operations Tim Cook said, "let me be clear on this one, it would be the mother of all thermal challenges to do what you are suggesting," when asked about releasing a PowerBook 5G in Q2 or Q3.

If anyone could meet "the mother of all thermal challenges," it would be Apple, who has designed innovative cooling systems for the PowerMac and iMac G5, but I wouldn't get your hopes up.

Re:Question

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

It is the time between releases that is called into question, not the difference in version numbers.

That is hilarious. The difference between two products is the time between their availability, not the qualitative differences between the products? So you can release the same thing every two years and it is OK to charge for it, but if you release radical new features every 6 months, they should be free. I think someone is smoking something.

Power Consumption

[DarkRecluse]

I would say that power consumption is the biggest problem with the G5 in a mobile application. Heat is a secondary consideration.

I don't think Apple wants a laptop that can't get more than 1 or 2 hours battery life at best.

I do like that the Registrar is more reserved than most in its reporting...Arstechnica is stating that iBooks will be out with G5's at the same time, which really makes this seem bogus.

Re:Question

[The Infamous Grimace]

A lot has been said on the topic, and quite a few folks seem to be under the impression that, because OS X has had a rapid upgrade cycle that this is going to continue. I tend to think that the rate of upgrades is going to slow. OS X is getting to be where Apple wants it. They are starting to look real closely at attracting users from Windows, and it's becoming more important to offer a stable-appearing feature set, for both users and developers.

Those who cautioned against buying before a release date for Tiger should also be listened to - that's good advice. Wait a bit, I think there is going to be another upgrade cycle soon (eMacs at least, and possibly 'Books), see what Apple does with Tiger, and buy once they've announced. But while you're waiting, go play around at an Apple Store or CompUSA or somesuch, make sure you really want to make the purchase.

(tig)

Re:Question

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

it is a better deal to pay $99 to upgrade or $199 for new install every 4 years or so (Windows) vs a year and a half (OS X) for $129.

Why are you upgrading? I mean if each upgrade is about equal, and OSX upgrades 3 times faster, then OS X is pulling away as the better OS constantly. You seem to act as if upgrades are some sort of a necessary evil. Damn I have to pay money and get a better OS. You don't you know. The old OS will work fine. If you want to buy every other one, that works too. I mean maybe MS will screw you and stop giving you security fixes for old versions, but Apple has been rolling out security fixes for all their old versions. You only have to pay for new features, not bug fixes.

Windows do tend to change a lot of things and those are free

They do? like what? SP2 was the most radical update in any service pack ever, as far as I can recall. It changed some default settings and fixed bugs. What new features were in any service packs?

Your arguments thus far boil down to "Apple gets things done faster, so I have to pay them sooner " which is true if you actually buy all upgrades, but you also get a better product. If you want to spend money at the same rate as you would to upgrade Windows you can. You just have to wait longer between upgrading and get this, you still get a better product.

Re:Question

[Llywelyn]

Two things:

* A full version of Windows XP Professional costs $290.

* You don't ever need to upgrade MacOS X. 10.3 will keep working the day 10.4 is released, and it will be the same price to upgrade to 10.5 as it is to upgrade to 10.5 from 10.4

Battery life?

[Mir322]

So i suppose it's a bad idea to even murmer a question about prospective battery life of a G5 portable vs the legendary stories of 12" ibooks with alledged 5.something hours in a regular day of use?

Resolution

[Merk]

Speaking of resolution, I'm more excited by higher resolution than a speed bump. They need a speed bump, true, but 1280x854 in a 15 inch screen is relatively low resolution compared to the offerings by Dell. For a company that likes to market to graphic artists, you'd think they'd try to sell an ultra high DPI display.

Re:Resolution

[bnenning]

For a company that likes to market to graphic artists, you'd think they'd try to sell an ultra high DPI display.

Which kills your eyes when you try to read normal sized text. That is, until we get a true resolution independent UI (hopefully in Tiger), at which point more DPI becomes indisputably better.

Re:Resolution

[Merk]

Yeah, wasn't one of the promises of a PDF-based display manager that the entire system would be vector-based, not pixel-based, so resolution wasn't important? It's sad that I have more control over those things in Windows and Linux. Heck, the ultimate for that was OS/2. In OS/2 it was sort-of disturbing. When you changed the resolution nothing changed size, you just had higher/lower res icons, fonts, etc.

Anyhow, my eyes can handle higher than 100dpi without difficulty, afterall paper has much higher than 100dpi.

Re:Resolution

[Onan]

Yep. As much as I love my powerbooks, the one and only thing which causes me envy of other laptops is the powerbooks' relatively low display density.

And this would be a perfect problem for Apple of all people to solve. 200dpi lcds were first readily available in 1998. But most users don't even use the highest resolutions available with their crts because "it makes everything smaller". The hardware has been there for years; display density is entirely a software problem.

As the only desktop computer company that makes both the hardware and software, Apple is in a unique position to offer computers which are just magically clearer than any others in the world. I was desperately hoping that this would be part of the first release of osx... and have been continuing to hope for about five years now.

Re:You do realize they are made in the same place?

[HiThere]

I don't think I believe you (not that it would make a difference, as they are quite different products).

A powerpc laptop has an entirely different set of chips and a different motherboard then an Intel based laptop.

Possibly the cases come out of the same factory...

Or by "place" did you mean country?

mod parent down

[commodoresloat]

I think that is wrong. It also doesn't save you the pain in the ass of installing the old OS again. There's a better way around this; the install disk is actually a full install disk but it has an app that checks what's installed and won't let you install unless it deems conditions correct. Fortunately you can delete the app and burn a new fully installable OSX CD by following the instructions here, near the end of the thread (but before all the pr0n links).

More than likely it will be just a G4

[Enrique1218]

According to ThinkSecret (who has a better track record with predicting future mac products) claims that only a modest PB update is imminent. Also, with the advent of dual core processors from Fresscale (due in later this year), Apple engineers have another ace up their sleeve. They could move the PowerBooks in that direction with Jobs hyping the first dual processor notebooks. In any rate, I don't see Apple using G5's this year in the PowerBook because of Apple's own contraints. They have to live up to the standard of today's PB. The notebooks can't be more than a 1" thick, can't weigh more than current models, can't last 1-2hours on battery power, and most important can't cause testicular burns. In essence, they can't live by the standards of Wintel OEM's (Dell, HP, Gateway, Alienware, etc)

key illumination

[commodoresloat]

It's just absurd that ibooks and powerbooks don't have this standard. Especially the ibooks with those nice white plastic keys; it seems it would be so easy to have them light up so people could type in the dark. I figure this would be a no-brainer; why haven't we seen this yet?

Re:Question

[Cro Magnon]

The difference is that OSX is actually worth $129. Windows is barely worth $1.29.

Re:Question

[istewart]

Probably illicit info, but the OS 10.1 upgrade CD that was so widely distributed had a file, I believe in the System folder, called CheckForOSX or something similar. If you made an image of the disc, removed this file, and burned the image, then you had a functional full install CD. Dunno if this is true for later versions.

Re:I have a 5 figure sum...

[myov]

I know someone who grabbed his notebook bag quickly, sending his 12" powerbook flying until it finally hit the floor. It hit with such an impact that the frame bent. It's been a year and it's still working.

Of course, I had a hinge seize on my tibook. That damaged the LCD bezel. Apple wants me to replace the entire screen (which isn't damaged), for something that was probably epoxied in the first place..

*You* don't need a full gig for OS X

[ChunderDownunder]

Other people's experiences may vary.

And 512MB may be 'adequate' for today but isn't future proof.

Let's say one buys a mini with the 256MB option and then finds that it isn't really ideal. If one the upgrades with a 512MB, one is left with an used 256MB stick and only 256MB extra RAM. Now if the machine had two slots, like the eMac, the total would be 768MB.

If only the minimac had an extra slot; 1GB sticks are comparatively expen$ive. :(

Re:*You* don't need a full gig for OS X

[caveat]

While you're absolutely right, buying a gig BTO is just insane - a iGB stick is pricey, true, but nowhere near what the Apple Store charges. IIRC, the brick-and-mortar Apple Stores will install RAM you bring in for $30; I'd just go that route.

Re:*You* don't need a full gig for OS X

[caveat]

I'd still rather drive three hours rather than pay $425 for a gig of RAM, but YMMV...

Re:Question

[Xyde]

You can convert the upgrade CD (you only need to do the first disk) to a full install CD using this procedure:

http://www.funmac.com/archive/index.php/t-13.htm l

This procedure is for an older OS X but AFAIK it still works on newer versions.

the mother of all thermal challenges...

[Your Average Joe]

Dual core 64 bit laptop...

Valentines day?

[filmsmith]

During the last WWDC, Steve kept showing off Spotlight using the search terms 'iMac' and 'Paris' and it ended up being his way of hinting that release to the world. This time, 'love' was the oft searched for item with Spotlight. Could Feb. 14 be the day of the 'Books? fs

Re:Valentines day?

[Ohreally_factor]

I like this prediction the best of all I've read so far.

Re:Question

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Don't forget the price for a decent firewall, and for a virus scanner, and an adware/spyware scanner. The later two usually being subscription based, of course. All of a suddern the yearly, non-mandatory, feature-rich, major updates for Mac OS X sound like a good deal.

Oh yeah... What are these features that come with the service packs? I'm on Win2000. I've had 4 service packs. I don't recall any decent new features after installing any of them.

Not a bad overview

[displaced80]

...but not a perfect one either.

A couple of glaring mistakes:

And whenever you migrate to a new computer, Setup Assistant automates migration of all your personal files, settings, applications and folders -- a feature already found in Windows XP.

This isn't new in Tiger. 10.3's Setup Assistant has been doing this for quite a while now, too. And by the looks of things (probably owing to OS X's Unix-style directory layout and use of single XML files for config settings) works very well indeed.

In general, some features that rely heavily on fancy graphics tricks may not run well on older machines.

I've run every version of OS X from 10.0.3 up to 10.3.7 on an old G3/500MHz iMac + 8MB ATI Rage 128. I have every bit of the functionality that owners of faster Macs enjoy. The eyecandy is scaled back on my system so things still work great. It's not "may not run well". More a case of "if the hardware can't draw it well, the system won't try and draw it". So, whilst Dashboard will fade, wibble and dissolve on a quick Mac, on mine it'll probably just 'appear'.

OS X may be dripping with eyecandy, but they do put in quite a bit of consideration when it comes to scaling appropriately to the hardware's ability.

Re:Question

[reso]

"A lot has been said on the topic, and quite a few folks seem to be under the impression that, because OS X has had a rapid upgrade cycle that this is going to continue. I tend to think that the rate of upgrades is going to slow. OS X is getting to be where Apple wants it. "

They announced your above statement above to the press -- stories ran everywhere maybe because it made a great FUD headline.

I'm Larry's Pimp

[Ohreally_factor]

Here's a link.

It doesn't say if it's compatible with the Mac Mini, but the specs look about right.

Re:Question

[chasingporsches]

at Florida State, they had a "night of the panther" deal when it first came out, if you bought it between 8 pm and midnight that night (i think it was like october 24th 2003 or something) then you could get the full, boxed, non-upgrade version for $39. and there aren't any limitations of the academic version, either. quite a deal.

Re:I have a 5 figure sum...

[easter1916]

I dropped my 1GHz/17" PB *hard* once, denting the front left corner... still works great. I haul it back and forth to work every day on the floor of my car, had it for well over a year now. The thing is quite tough.

Re:Question

[mr100percent]

Well I didn't want to talk about myself. SP2 broke my computer, had to reformat and reinstall. It also ruined my Virtual PC Windows disk image, thank God I made a backup of that.

Re:I've bought an Mac, but I'll NEVER SWITCH...

[billsoxs]

ever since I bought that iBook which sits day in/out collecting dust, and they haven't done a thing.

Send it to me. I'll fix it for you. Just don't expect it to come back.

Re:Question

[mo^]

fair enough.. i feel your pain on the Virtual PC thingy...

SP2 foobar'd MySQL on my server.....

thatll teach me to be contentious

G5 laptop does not make sense

[Satchel Buddah]

What makes the powerbooks sweet machines is the compromise of speed, weight and battery endurance. A g4 powerbook is plenty power for everything these days, while running cooler and having much more autonomy than a g5 could. Why desire a g5 powerbook ? Makes little sense to me. If you need macho processor power, go with desktop boxes.

Re:Question

[jlaxson]

Also, an upgrade from 10.n to 10.n+1 is a full-featured OS update, with 150-200 new features in each. I don't see that in SP2 (heck, I don't think there were that many from W2k to XP)