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Traveler Detained for Anti-TSA Message
scifience writes "A traveler frustrated with recent changes to airport security procedures found himself detained in Milwaukee after writing a message critical of the TSA's leader on a plastic bag presented for screening. The message, which read "Kip Hawley is an Idiot," resulted in a confrontation with law enforcement, the traveler being told that his right to freedom of speech applied only "out there (pointing past the id checkers) not while in here [the checkpoint]." The story, which is detailed in a rapidly-growing thread on a discussion forum catering to frequent flyers, has attracted the interest of the ACLU, an AP reporter, and many others. The incident raises a number of interesting questions and concerns regarding just where our rights end."
But increasingly, your rights end where dissent begins.
"The incident raises a number of interesting questions and concerns regarding just where our rights end."
Don't you mean "... when our rights ended"?
What rights?
Send email from the afterlife! Write your e-will at Dead Man's Switch.
"The incident raises a number of interesting questions and concerns regarding just where our rights end."
Well, they end right there at the point where people happily exchange freedom for that so called "security".
-------
Born stupid? Try again.
with the war on terror that gave all those security authorities the power to make your life miserable and still keep public support.
Unbelievably, I hear the right to keep and bear arms on an airplane is under threat too.
Have real jobs to do?
http://michaelsmith.id.au
With the current administration doing it's best to wipe out freedom, rights, and justice why should the airport be immune to the degeneration?
Don't you yanks have a constitiution for this sort of thing?
Don't our rights end where our lefts begin?
> regarding just where our rights end.
Your rights ended on the morning of September 11th 2001 - apparantly the morning of a successful coup of the US government by Al-Queda.
pound to a penny his name is now on the no-fly list... and several other secret watch lists as well...
Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
In Civilization IV's Civilopedia there is a Benjamin Franklin quotation on article about Liberalism.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both"
In this context the society is not the State but the airport. Do people feel more secure on security control when a person before them is pointed out because of critisim about the system or are they going to be looking around for the lion in the bushes.
I wonder if there was a similar erosion of rights and freedoms during the second world war? And if so, was that erosion reversed during the period after WWII?
Kip Hawley and the entire TSA are rice-bowlers, collecting paychecks from a spectacularly moronic WPA that spends money as fast as the real WPA ever did but doesn't produce a damned thing.
This guy knows it, and said it in a particularly insulting way. To the people collecting those paychecks, who also know it in their hearts, and are ashamed.
So, yeah, they got angry. The twaddle about 1st Amendment rights applying ~out there, not in here~ was just angry-stupid horking, not worth getting in a flap about.
As always, all IMO. Insert "I think" everywhere grammatically possible.
They clearly ought to have let him or her go through. There was no security risk, and being held up for 25 minutes can easily make you miss your flight. On the other hand, as abuses of authority go, this is fairly mild.
But what I'm wondering is why people think it's a good idea to go out of your way to be rude or insulting. If you shout "pig" at every cop you pass in the street, pretty soon you will find somone who takes it to heart and will give you a bad time. Maybe this is a violation of your freedom of speech. But why do it in the first place?
I thought our rights ended years ago. Is there some question about that?
If I wanted a sig I would have filled in that stupid box.
I sense a business opportunity in a fashionable range of "Kip Hawley Is An Idiot" T-shirts...
I was thinking to myself while reading this travellers story - and I know from my own experience, these airport security people are much the same everywhere in the world - why do we tolerate security people like this.
It's like Doctors - they are expected to be arrogant, aloof and possessing of a certain air of infallibility. But they're not infalable, we know that and they know that.
Same thing with security people, customs, immigration etc etc. We expect them to be rude and aggressive - but in point of fact they have absolutely no right to be.
When planes blow up etc - the individual security people aren't berated for this. The system maybe - but not the individuals. Also, their lives are not a risk - it is we who travel on the planes that are at risk - and if we can be light-hearted about it, why can't these idiots be? (Gotta love the guy with cocaine).
I think it goes back to the same old thing - give a small man a little power and he will abuse it.
I would like to say that a number of these people are actually very nice and endowed with a decent sense of humour. And you know what - they get the job done just as well.
Genesis 1:32 And God typed
Are not very bright, have an over important opinion of themselves and become hostile if contradicted.
Punishing those responsible isn't going to solve this problem in the general case.
Can anyone suggest a more proactive solution?
This is nothing new, and hardly a TSA phenomenon. Try insulting a cop's mother when he arrests you; you'll see how far your free speech rights extend.
The TSA is basically a hall monitor in the heirarchy of law enforcement. So they're even more sensitive to taunts, and more likely to elevate an insult to the level of national emergency.
I live in the UK.... TSA? Am I supposed to know what that is? There is life outside the USA, cover up your t-shirt and come visit!
Reminds me of being 'detained' as a teenager, back in the '60s, because the car we were in had a small American flag on the antenna that was upside down...
That was regular cops and they seem to have come around since then. These TSA wonks are more like renta-cops - got shot at by one of them, back then as well, and the regular cops that came out said they would have been 'ok' with me shooting back.
Amazing what a little taste of authority will do for an otherwise flimsy backbone.
I think you meant "when did our rights end".
Here in the usa, what rights we had left pretty much ended on 9.11.01, when the government seized the opportunity to grab the rest of them after a tragic event.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Like, seriously new.
Lots of reference to TSA, but nowhere does the article or any comment actually say what this TSA thingy is.
I was wondering what had happened to FlyerTalk, one of my favorite web sites. Why it was being sluggish and actually just stopped working. Now I know, thanks to Slashdot!
Although having a database error page that says "Please try again by pressing the refresh button in your browser" probably doesn't help with the load.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23QgunoRYxw
Kid gets detained by police for writing fuck bush on a sign.
-- -- --
Help my mini cause: My journal
Its been well documented that it took place.
And the reversal was only partial.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
So... this happened online apparently?
Ohh, on the line at the airport. Not online, as in on the Internet.
An Iraqi man was denied the right to board an airplane because he was wearing a t-shirt with the words "We Will Not Be Silent." http://raedinthemiddle.blogspot.com/2006/08/back-f rom-mideast.html
Comment removed based on user account deletion
If you don't think too clearly, then it's best you don't think to much.
Evidently philosophical acumen apprently isn't high on the list of qualifications for being a TSA screener.
That said, I fly a great deal, and TSA personnel seem to be fairly representative of the rest of the human race; some are automatically grouchy and unpleasant, some are tempermentally helpful and friendly, and the majority are like most people, they give you back what you bring them. When you're snide or difficult, the grouchy ones return with interest; when you are pleasant and courteous, the friendly ones return that with interest.
Speaking of philosophy, in Plato's ideal state there were three classes of people, rulers, who required the virtue of wisdom (sophia); soldiers, who required the virtue of courage (andreia); and the rest of the people who required the virtue of sophrosune, which is translated often as moderation, but is perhaps better thought of as temperance. The Greeks thought of this as a kind of self-control over pleasure seaking, but it applies to the negative emotions like anger and suspicion as well. In a modern democratic republic, people (even soliders -- possibly especially them) are called on to excerise the virtues of all three Platonic classes of people, although in different measure.
TSA is above all a civilian agency, although security is its function. And the civilian virtue of temperance is critical to the efficient execution of its duties. Consider the grouchy, aggressive and irritable inspector, on one hand, and the overly friendly one on the other. These are both bad, not because the travelling population is comprised mostly of decent people (it is) on one hand, nor because the travelling population contains dangerous bad people (it does). The reason these characteristics are bad in a screener is that they are both forms of distraction from the actual job.
TSA was cobbled together pretty much overnight, so its a mixed bag. But consider the benefits of moderation. If you're too suspicious, you jump to conclusions and you dwell on irrelevant details. If I were a terrorist, I'd want to be a couple of people behind the guy with the Kip Hawley bag, so I could pass through while everyone was dealing with the First Amendment brouhahah. Likewise, you want the inspectors to be pleasant, but not too friendly. Pleasant behavior is a social lubricant; it makes things run faster. That means more people inspected in a given number of time, or the same number scrutinized in more detail. But you don't want pleasantness to rise to outright friendliness. Chatting and making small talk would get in the way of business.
Of course, you need a wide selection of people if you want to consistently pick the ones from the middle of the deck. For better or worse, security is just one of those things we think anybody is able to do; we don't see it as a job with high professional or personal qualifications. By paying accordingly, we don't a work force which is consistently fitted to do the job with excellence. We end up with a workforce that is representative of the population, and have to accept the natural variations in performance that involves. Perhaps that's good enough. Freedom isn't going to fall apart because of some hot-headed TSA employee taking it upon himself to impose loyalty on the citizenry. Society isn't going to unravel if the occasional airplane is hijacked. We don't like to think of it this way, but we really treat these things as part of the cost of doing the business of society. If we didn't, we'd do what was necessary to have a more consistenly professional TSA.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
The problem with our current "war" is it has no defined condition for winning. We won WWII when Germany and Japan were defeated, but our current military escapades have no potential end in sight.
How will we know when the War On Terror is over? George W. Bush said, on 9/20/2001, that it "will not end until every terrorist group of global reach has been found, stopped and defeated". How the hell are we going to determine that? Who can possibly predict how long that'll take?
Similar problems present themselves in Iraq. "Major combat operations" officially ended over three years ago, when that banner was unfurled on the aircraft carrier. But we're still there. We've been hearing phrases like "as the Iraqis stand up, we'll stand down" and "the next six months will be critical" for years now, with no end in sight.
We have no definition of victory. You can't compare this current erosion of rights, done in the name of perpetual war, with any erosion of rights that might've occurred during the well-defined WWII, because no one has any idea when we'll even know that it's time to expect our rights back.
Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
That'll teach him to strand the Enterprise in the middle of nowhere.
"They hate us for our freedoms; so we will get rid of them!" - ?Bush? :)
If you fly through frequently outside of the US, or are not natively from the US, you've probably notice how many rights you don't have when flying into (or through) the USA.
From compulsory finger-printing, mugshots etc - to being refused entry even for those with a no-record criminal record, it seems a little strange.
That said, the TSA appear to be a law unto themselves - the debacle over bag locks is a prime example.
We are told (Australians in particular after the Corby case) to secure bags as much as you can.
That said - if you lock a bag, the TSA unlock it forceably - or in the case of myself, remove both zips and leave the suitcase open. You can purchase a TSA approved lock, that lets in anyone w/ a master key (hah).
If you're lucky, you'll receive a 'We went through your shit. If we broke something, sorry, but we're not responsible.' message.
Totally unacceptable.
To the point: I've had bags broken and broken into. I've locked them w/ zip ties, and provided spares with notes asking for them to kindly reseal the bag - and got a broken bag back w/ zipties removed.
It's a total joke.
Who will be the next Rosa Parks?
RTFA (Read The Fucking Amendment)
" Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
Keyword: congress.
Capisci? Your freedom of speech, or press, or whatever, exist _only_ in your relation to congress. Noone else. Not an airline, not your neighbour, not Slashdot, not your employer, etc. If I want to chuck you out of my party because of something you've said, freedom of speech is fully non-applicable and can kiss my ass. Freedom of speech does _not_ give you a right to troll on someone else's property (a message board, an airline, etc), or whatever else you may have imagined.
Yes, the airline is perfectly right there: you may have your freedom of speech over there, not over here. The airline has _no_ obligation to give him any freedom of speech. It doesn't matter if it's dissent or not.
Frankly, it's getting tiresome by now. For a nation so fond of chest-thumping about their freedoms, you'd think people would at least bother learning what those are. But nosiree, bob. Ever since bulletin boards, newsgroups, FIDO, MUDs, etc, were invented, the utterly sad reality pops up again and again that the average people have no freakin' clue.
They imagine that it's some non-existent exact opposite: that they have some sacred right to troll on someone else's property, but it's OK to bend over to the Government. That it's some 1st Ammendment violation if their goatse post on some private board is deleted, but it's OK if the governemnt does it. (After all, duh, it's the government. It's their job to decide what's allowed and whatnot.;) Which is getting it completely wrong.
Learn thy actual rights, lemming. Not knowing them is the first step towards losing them.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
A lot of the members in my gliding club are airline pilots and i hear a lot of stories from them.
The pilots have to pass through security just like the rest of us, and from what I hear they are getting increasingly fed up with the security screening staff. The general opinion is, that these are the same personality types that under different circumstances would become executioners.
Some of the pilots fought back though. One guy I heard of, attempted to pass through the detector gate, carefully making sure to step over an imaginary 1 foot high obstruction.
The screening crew apparently didn't have a sense of humor and made the pilot walk through the gate again, warning him to do it "normal" this time around.
At first the pilot prcoeeded normally through the gate, but stopped in the middle of the gate, spinning around in a Michael Jackson-esqe manouvre and exited the gate walking backwards. The screening crew went ballistic and forced him through a third time before he was let through.
Another pilot presented his ID card to the security screening crew, was let through and pocketed his card again, hurrying towards his assigned aircraft. He was running late.
Airpot security guidelines clearly states that ID cards should be carried visible at all times and a female security offcial noticed that the pilot did not carry a visible ID-card, took offence and ran after him. The pilot made it all the way to the cockpit and was sitting down and preparing for the flight, when the security offical came bursting into the cockpit, throwing a hissy fit and telling the pilot off for not wearing the ID card visible. The pilots in the cockpit were running late and were getting increasingly annoyed by the security official, when they noticed that the official was not carrying an ID card herself.
"So who are you?", they asked her, demanding to see her ID card. Fumbling around her pockets, she realised that she had left her own ID card behind, when running after the pilot.
The pilots resolutely locked the cockpit security doors and radioed the airport advising them that an unknown person that could not identify herself was locked in the cockpit with them.
The security official was then escorted off the plane by two armed police officers.
Being one of the lucky ones, who always "randomly" gets picked by the TSA, I must say the idea has crossed my mind to do something similar. I don't mind the rights issue. Anyone can go through my bags and see if I really didn't bring that nuke this time. However I do have problems with the utter disrespect with which the TSA people treat my property. Last trip I arrived home to find my bag filled with the coffee I bought. The container was apparently ripped open to see if it really was coffee I was carrying from the USA back to Europe. On another occasion something similar happened to a jar of homemade Tamarind Chutney. I mean how hard is it, to put a plastic bag around opened materials? I guess to get employed by the TSA, any life form with two hands will do...
Just get on the freakin' airplane. Save your "Kip is an Idiot" message for your personal blog when you're at home. I was in that line 5 people behind you, and you caused the boarding to take a good 30 minutes longer, you idiot! If you want to get all "freedom of speech" on us, pick a flight traveling to Great Bend, Kansas, or some other place that nobody cares if the flight is delayed. Nothing against Great Bend of course. It's a nice godforsaken place.
Crap.. wrong TSA.
in a rapidly-growing thread on a discussion forum catering to frequent flyers
/.'ed
Not anymore.... been
Jaj
first thing, TSA- is a goverment employee no?
My nitpick: tell me, ultimately, by what authority the airline can penalize me for speech they don't appreciate -- that is not an authority technincally given them by congress.
so- congress passed a law empowering someone ELSE to abridge my speech.. that was ok?
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
The TSA is *not* a private entity, it is tasked with the guarding of the airports by the FAA with support form the DOJ, both of which are fedral institutions who get their powers directly from congress (due to bogus use of the interstate commerce clause, but I won't go into that)....
HUGE difference betweent he TSA saying that and someone at a party.
s/Enterprise/Voyager/
I used to ski in the States but this winter, like last, I'm going to Canada; I don't want to have my privacy invaded by being fingerprinted and credit searched. My boss is the same: he wants a change from his usual trip to Tremblant, but he has ruled out visiting the USA.
I could continue with much more anecdotal evidence but the message is clear. European tourists like me - affluent, middle class European tourists with bulging wallets - are voting with their feet: America doesn't trust us, so we don't trust America. We have a choice, and we'll use it.
But the situation is self correcting. As I understand it, American lawmakers are on sale to the highest bidder, and you can be pretty confident that, even as I type, American hoteliers, theme park operators and airline owners are buying some sympathetic congressmen and senators. They have deep pockets, so it won't be too many years before a more relaxed attitude prevails. I call it electoral darwinism.
Here is an honest story about a friend of mine's experience with the TSA:
A friend of mine was once (and only once) bullied by the TSA. The incident occured in July 2004 at the Las Vegas airport.
But first, I need to describe my friend... He is a former Marine DI, approximately 6 feet tall, and in damn good shape. He also isn't one to bullshit a story like this. Oh, is also insane. Seriously, he draws disability pay from government because of his confirmed diagnosis of insanity. He is a guy you *DON'T* want to mess with...
Anyways, a TSA agent had the bright idea to follow him (apparently, moustache and a cowboy hat == terrorist suspect). Said agent, then decided to approach my friend from behind and grab him so that he could question him. Not a smart move... Within one second after grabbing his shoulder from behind, my friend turned around, and by reflex snapped the TSA agent's arm. He literally shattered the TSA agent's arm without even giving it a thought.
All TSA agents in the immediate area swarmed him with their pistols drawn. Apparently, this saved the TSA agent's life, as my friend was about to land the killing blow on the guy. They took him into custody, and proceeded to question him. They later told him that the injured agent has filed assault and battery charges.
And then a funny thing happened... my friend immediately told the TSA agents holding him that he wishes to file charges against the TSA agent who started the entire incident. From what I remember, he told them that the agent was guilty of "Assault and battery under the guise of authority, at the very least." This lead to the agent being charged and later convicted of assault and my friend being placed on the next flight home.
Take the story for what it's worth. (I'm not going to respond to claims concerning the authenticity or validity)
Navicula hydraulica plena anguilarum est. Omnes castelli tuus nostri sunt. Ed elli avea del cul fatto trombetta.
Why is this +5 informative?
Any dolt with a 3rd-grade reading comprehension level has already figured it out: "A traveler frustrated with recent changes to airport security procedures found himself detained in Milwaukee after writing a message critical of the TSA's leader on a plastic bag presented for screening."
The guy is karma whoring to get eyeballs on his sig: buyindie.tld [buyindie.tld] -- For owners and seekers of unique places
A host is a host from coast to coast...
Unless it's down, or slow, or fails to POST!
So is this the form of Democracy the US wants to give to the world? All I can say is, I feel sorry for you guys. If you try to stick it to the Man you're a terrorist. Bummer!
He boarded the plane fine. He was just needlessly hassled and made ot change his T-Shirt.
There is no need to over-exaggerate the facts, as how he was treated was already bad enough. Exaggerating them just makes you less credible in the future when others inspect the details of your store and find you exaggewrated the facts.
This is what we get now:
Let's hope their technical staff has a large enough mailboxThat's it, I need a "Kip Hawley is an Idiot" Tshirt to wear whenever I fly now.
Since I have been exposed to products of American culture throughout my life, I've been planning to some day travel to USA. It would be a marvellous experience to see those places and regions described in movies, TV series and books in reality.
During the past few years actions of USA have turned more and more freaky. Now when I finally have a regular income to be able to travel where I want, USA is definitely not in my list. The so-called security actions have scared me so that I do not want to travel to a police state not welcoming me.
And when talking about the fellow Europeans, I sure ain't the only one. And one can imagine how this arrogant and scary image of USA affects in other matters as well. I wonder when the rational citizens of USA realize the damage done to USA's relations with rest of the world.
The guy is karma whoring to get eyeballs on his sig:
If he is, you just helped him, sunshine.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Wow. He wrote, "Kip Hawley is an idiot." You don't say? Hmm. He made no threatening mention there. He didn't say, "I'm going to kill that idiot, Kip Hawley." He called him an idiot. That's a matter of opinion. Last I checked, you can't be charged for having an opinion that someone is an idiot. It does no harm and he made no threats; IANAL but this would never hold up in court, period. This guy was blatantly harrassed for having an opinion and that is wrong.
Sounds like some bully that never amounted to anything after high school got a government job with the TSA and wanted to bully someone again.
Xserv
"I love lamp."
You mean the site catored to those annoying Chinese restaurant flyers?
This message printed on 100% post-consumer recycled electrons.
Actually, I have sigs turned off and didn't see it until you posted it. So, uh, nice way to help him out there. (The people that post sigs in their regular comment text should be slapped, however. If I wanted to see sigs I'd have them turned on.)
KHIAI... or: Kip Hawley is an Idiot
./ acronym meme
I, for one, welcome our new
What about the "maniacs who blew up bandsmen by remote control"? What should I think about Christians?
http://michaelsmith.id.au
Thomas Jefferson to William Smith
Paris Nov. 13. 1787.
persevering lying. the British ministry have so long hired their gazetteers to repeat and model into every form lies about our being in anarchy, that the world has at length believed them, the English nation has believed them, the ministers themselves have come to believe them, & what is more wonderful, we have believed them ourselves. yet where does this anarchy exist? where did it ever exist, except in the single instance of Massachusets? and can history produce an instance of a rebellion so honourably conducted? I say nothing of it's motives. they were founded in ignorance, not wickedness. god forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. the people cannot be all, & always, well informed. the past which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive; if they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. we have had 13. states independant 11. years. there has been one rebellion. that comes to one rebellion in a century & a half for each state. what country before ever existed a century & half without a rebellion? & what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms. the remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon & pacify them. what signify a few lives lost in a century or two? the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. it is it's natural manure. our Convention has been too much impressed by. . .
A traveler frustrated with recent changes to airport security procedures found himself detained in Milwaukee after writing a message critical of the TSA's leader on a plastic bag presented for screening. The message, which read "Kip Hawley is an Idiot," resulted in a confrontation with law enforcement
He's lucky he didn't get arrested for revealing a state secret.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
Let's say you're a frequent flyer, for reasons of business. If your local TSA supervisor gropes you or someone you know at a bar or on the street, what are you going to do? What if they get in a property dispute with you? What if their child is tormenting your child at school? What if they don't like the clubs or places you want to frequent? What if you want to campaign for a political party they don't really like?
What will you do? Exercise your rights? Do something that might displease the officials? Perturb or them in some small way? You will on your fuck! You will drop everything and anything the moment you smell that this petty prick might make flying more difficult for you. Only fools and people with the right kind of friends will do otherwise.
As the TSA officials and persons like them grow in number and influence, expect such situations to arise. You think it won't happen? The people who set up the TSA, the people in the TSA, they all believe that such a state of affairs would be right and proper. They have a world view, and it does not involve tolerance for yours. If they can find a way to make life miserable for people who don't follow them, they will.
May the Maths Be with you!
I might be paranoid but this seems all a big charade. After hijacking the planes for 9/11, we witnessed repeated attempts at blowing planes up, first the guy with explosive under the shoe, then the other guys who wanted to come onboard with liquid explosives. The problem is that Al qaeda should have hundreds of surface to air missile launchers left from Afghanistan campaign when they fought for USA aganst Soviet Russia (in soviet russia terrorists fight for YOU!). Those are made to hit military planes, a civilian plane during takeoff is a joke for them, I guess.
Al quaeda seems not willing to embarass the US by using the arms they got from them, in the meantime western citizens are being trained to be questioned, searched, put in custody for merely losing patience. Here the 500-1500 stingers given to Bin Laden... all lost? If so, can't they buy anything second hand in Kosovo? Strange.
---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759 that seems to be relavent in this case
--
You hit the nail on the head - my country is turning (in places) into a police state. OK, OK, it's not smart to exercise your free speech in certain times and places. I wouldn't call a local police officer an "idiot" on a routine traffic stop on a dark country lane, even though it would be legal to do so if you weren't threatening
That being said, this is inexcusable. My wife and I aren't going to travel to a cousin's wedding this winter because it has become an exhausting, aggravating, and sometimes demeaning struggle to fly from place to place within the US.
If we (the people of the United States) don't use our right to vote this year and in 2008 to shake up those who imposed these draconian "solutions" to terrorism, well, shame on us all.
Using plain ol' text since 1968
Now go crawl back under your rock until you have something substantive to contribute.
668: Neighbour of the Beast
Remember remember the fifth of november......
...to be stupid.
Everyone knows you don't make threatening, disparaging, or otherwise inflammatory remarks when you're in an airport. The security there takes things very seriously, as they must. Putting comments like that on a bag going through the security checkpoint is going to make them look at you twice or three times, possibly in a way that usually requires buying someone dinner first.
God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
Hey, when there is a WW3, and nukes and all.... the fat people will NOT starve to death, all the thinnies
will waste away with in 3-4 weeks, while th fatoos will last 8-15 weeks min. Hopefully some radiation protection
is there too, ie , more mass.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
We have no definition of victory. You can't compare this current erosion of rights, done in the name of perpetual war, with any erosion of rights that might've occurred during the well-defined WWII, because no one has any idea when we'll even know that it's time to expect our rights back.
We will tell you when you can have your "rights' back, slave!
Where are your papers! Guards!
Where have I heard that before, hmmmmmmm.
Where are they saving up to go??? (real question, not bait) So _many_ places these days are "police states" (or at least seriously fucked-up and well on their way) Where would one who is thoroughly fed-up with this inept, corrupt, besotted, evil, meglomaniacal administration go? How much would it cost (besides the plane fare) and how do you get to stay wherever it is you land? Most countries don't consider Americans "Policital Refugees" (even though common sense would suggest they are).
Watching the US military slaughter at least 43525 muslim civlians in the pointless invasion of Iraq changes you. Especially if you're a muslim. So if you were afraid of muslims before, turn your fear up a notch, and congratulate your leaders on a nice job making the worst of a bad situation.
Software patents delenda est.
The US government has monitored potential threats and "alternative political parties" (witness the whole communist thing) for decades, if not centuries. Actual detainment was not what the GP was referring to. Congratulations on beating up your straw man.
picpix image polls. create - share - vote. fun!
Pim Fortuyn was shot by a milieu activist. There's more to that story but none of it figures any muslim at all. So I don't understand what this fact is doing besides all the others.
As for the others, you might have taken into account that the States are largely responsible for helping both Saddam and the current Islamic goverment in Iran to power, as well as aggravate muslims into action.
As for the type of action, Christians created the precedent with their crusades.
None of the above excuses in any way the limiting of those pillars of civilisation called human rights and individual freedoms.
If he is, you just helped him, sunshine.
:P
Nah, I obfuscated it.
$ host buyindie.tld
Host buyindie.tld not found: 3(NXDOMAIN)
Reading comprehension... It's a wonderful thing.
Of course, now I'm sure people are going through the various TLDs just to see what the fuss is all about. I haven't even looked.
A host is a host from coast to coast...
Unless it's down, or slow, or fails to POST!
I'm dutch and can tell you that Pim Fortuyn was not murdered by a muslim but by a crazy environmentalist and the reason he was killed had nothing to do with his, rather silly, remarks about islam
Wow, descending into geekier territory... I don't recall Voyager that much, but I do know they called the freaky guy who came because Wesley was in some wierd way special in TNG traveler. And that guy had used his powers to make the enterprise go ludicrously fast (plaid even) into the middle of no where when he flipped out in that episode. Can't remember the details, but he was traveler, he made the enterprise go out into the middle of nowhere, and it was all to get the kid off the show... err I mean help him realize his powers.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
"What about the "maniacs who blew up bandsmen by remote control"? What should I think about Christians?"
You should be aware that regardless of religion, political party, country, race, sex, , extreamists exist. Those small number of folks are the root cause of most, if not all, of these problems.
There are no loopholes. It's either legal or it's not.
IANAL, but it seems that as government employees, law enforcement cannot stifle freedom of speech anywhere, except in the special cases identified by the SCOTUS (i.e. theatre and fire). However, as this was done on private property (I'm assuming the airport is privately owned), the airport at most can refuse the passenger service.
Let me state this loud and clear:
*** Kip Hawley is a genius! ***
The incident raises a number of interesting questions and concerns regarding just where our rights end.
Where Bush says they end.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
Like.. remember, remember, the 5th of November familiar?
Christians are capable of all of those things too, you know. Every religion seems to have fanatical extremists who are desparate to kill people who don't subscribe to their beliefs. Perhaps this is something about religion, rather than being something about Islam.
You're free to quote this (vastly-inflated) count because Saddam's no longer in charge. I'd bet he'd have killed six times as many people in the same time.
In related news, al Qaeda is polling badly in Iraq: http://hnn.us/blogs/entries/30289.html
But that doesn't serve *your* story line, does it?
668: Neighbour of the Beast
I think what everyone here is failing to realize is that insulting the body's leader in such a way is considered harrassment of the officials doing the screenings. It has long been established that you only have the right to free speech as long you aren't bringing harm upon other people while doing so.
While not as extreme this falls under the category of "harrassing the officer of a law". In the eyes of the government and the law it is just as bad to "harrass" a TSA official (even if it something minor) as it is to call a police officer and idiot to his face.
I have a friend who was cited for "harrassing an officer of the law" for telling a meter maind to not be bitch after she stood at his car and put a new parking ticket on it every 15 minutes.
This is not news for nerds.
Some idiot defames the TSA, right in their face, and then is surprised when they give him shit. That's not even news. It's just another indication of the stupidity of much of the human race: the idiot who wrote on the bag, the idiot who confronted him about it, the idiot who submitted this article, the idiot who approved and posted it, and all the idiots who have responded to it.
I am embarrassed for all of us.
there are 3 kinds of people:
* those who can count
* those who can't
How about watching the systematic destruction of an industrialised nation on TV for months on end, but never once seeing the bodies of the thousands of people who died?
Or watching people CHEER as we started up the bombing for a second time?
I know Saddam was a brutual dictator who crushed ALL opposition in Iraq, but that doesn't justify the deaths of nearly 3 million Iraqis over the course of 10 years. Not that we complained when his presence served our (the US & the UKs) purpose as a handy counter-balance to the terrifying idea of an Islamic Iran. But hey, why look to the past when we can pretend that all history started on 9/11?
Far easier that way.
"If you unscrew Bill Gates' navel will the bottom fall out of the software market?"
I got the Pim Fortuyn bit wrong. I apologize.
I should have mentioned the Muslim Ramadan riots going on in Belgium right now, or the recent Muslim riots in Paris, or Muslim honor killings in Norway, the murder of a Catholic nun in Somalia, the burning of churches in the Gaza Strip, or the Berlin opera house canceling a Mozart performance in response to threats of violence from Islamists who consider "Idomenio" offensive to Muslims. Etc., etc.
668: Neighbour of the Beast
Watching Pim Fortuyn being murdered after he called Islam a "backward religion" for its treatment of women and gays, changes you.
Your suggesting here that he was murdered for his statements regarding Islam, which is misleading. He was murdered by an (obviously not too sane) animal rights activist for supporting mistreatment of animals for the production of meat and/or fur. I don't remember exactly, but I guess googling and/or wikipedianing can help for better information.
While legally he should not've been detained for this, the guy was still being a dick by wearing this to the airport while expecting to fly somewhere. The fact that it's government sector merely means that the government should serve him anyway, not that he's any less a schmuck for doing it.
For every problem, there is at least one solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
Let's face it: there's a war going on, and most people just want to bury their heads. Most Muslims are not terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslim. This is a point you won't see made in the NYT, or the WaPo, but it is true. the more the Muslim world is faced with atrocities committed in its name, the quicker it'll get around to disowning the terror, or throwing in its lot. Either action would be clarifying.
668: Neighbour of the Beast
I think you mean: just "when" our rights end[ed].
:-(
And the answer is about 6 years ago
Maybe "watching Muslims crash airliners into the WTC and Pentagon" changes you, but it certainly does not change the basic falsehood of the official conspiracy theory as to what really brought down the WTC buildings
If you treat everybody you meet as a criminal eventually someone will lose their cool and there will be a major incident.
The airport goons exist merely to enforce stupid security theatre. Nothing they do makes you one jot safer.
Christ! The Crusades ended, what, 800 years ago? And that's an excuse?
Please step away from your keyboard until you acquire an average IQ.
668: Neighbour of the Beast
I'd expect this sort of comment from an Anonymous Coward.
Why don't you amplify your remark. I mean, all the Jooooooooooooooooooooos in New York got a message not to go to work that day, right?
You're a barking moonbat. Lower than whale shit at the bottom of the ocean. Beneath contempt.
668: Neighbour of the Beast
The TSA, is a bunch of idiots (for the most part), who, cannot or will not "improve" themselves. They have these jobs, and are taking advantage of thier position to wield power over a captive crowd. This, will be the ONLY time in their lives that they can actually have any authority over anyone, and these dolts are going to screw up your lives. Why? Because they can. If they were not working for TSA, they would be working in a McDonalds, Burger King, or on welfare. Have you seen some of these idiots at work? 2/3 of them barely have a working knowledge of ENGLISH. I quit flying anywhere after 9/11, just because it's just too much of a hassle to waste an ENTIRE day to travel. You have to figure 2-3 hours MINIMUM before your flight just to bother with all the prescreening if you travel through a major airport.
Ha, most people care, but most people care about are rights as well. Why defend something that doesn't exist anymore?
Hey, thanks for fighting the way! We've made some minor organizational changes. Instead of "America" we're going to be called "Funland" as the whole system fell under. Instead of seeing your families again you'll have to "apply" for a license to "travel" to their "reassignment region" which we can't tell you for matters of "security."
As my friend says, 9/11 became a joke shortly after it happened. Bush ignored it, then made fun of it. The republicans who still say 9/11 everywhere are making fun of it. It's a joke to them, why not you?
And a lot of people also realize that this "war" on terror isn't doing anything for our security, even the recently release report shows that, the war is increasing terrorism(as if that weren't obvious from before).
Please take a look at the comment labeled "I appreciate your point".
I don't hate anybody. I'm just well-aware of the world, and appropriately careful.
668: Neighbour of the Beast
They also busted a ring of Aquafina smugglers.
TSA stands for TSA Sucks Ass.
You'd like that wouldn't you "everyone"?
threatening, disparaging, or otherwise inflammatory remarks
Threatening I'll give you. Disparaging? Go fuck yourself you knob-end. Inflammatory? That's all in the ear of the belistener and is too vague to mean anything.
If you don't like the freedoms of the USA including the Freedom of Speech I suggest you piss off to Cuba, China or Iraq.
I was waiting for that. In case you don't know, the report was from a highly-selective leak, that was think massaged by reporters at the NYT suffering from Bush Derangement Syndrome.
E _Key_Judgments.pdf
The NIE was declassified, and is available here: http://www.dni.gov/press_releases/Declassified_NI
A close reading reveals it to be...pablum.
In ralated news, al Qaeda is not polling all too well in Iraq: http://hnn.us/blogs/entries/30289.html
668: Neighbour of the Beast
While pilots do pass through security at outstations (as do flight attendants, etc.), and while they are often cheesed off by TSA, your stories sound like make believe. In particular, TSA has no authority to chase down pilots for not displaying their ID in the terminal, nor do pilots have to present their ID to screeners (well, OK, they do if they want to skip to the head of the line, but those are usually run by airports, not TSA). Simply put,the terminal is not the SIDA (Security Identification Display Area). The airline gate agent would also be quite lax to allow TSA to enter the aircraft itself, because they have no authority to do so.
Could all be true, but it sounds like BS.
Are you seriously trying to suggest that the US is the moral equivalent of Saddam's Iraq?
You're either a bad comic, or so far out of touch with reality as to be unworthy of any further comment.
668: Neighbour of the Beast
How dare you say that. I would never make racist remarks. I have Jewish ancestry (as if you really cared whether I did or didn't).
One of the problems with big government (civil service) organisations is that they are not answerwable directly to the public. While you can argue that elections don't make governments any smarter, it can stop them being exceptionally stupid.
Even if the current government is voted out & legislation is amended, you will still be left with the same power-hungry individuals at the sharp end. While governments may control & curtail their agent's powers, the power required to make them effective can always be abused.
I dare say there is no legislation against having "vaguely offensive descriptions of a TSA leader" on your t-shirt (I may be wrong). An agent willing to bend existing rules to arrest this individual now can still do so after the next election.
Power is only used responsibly under threat of having it taken away.
Python coder | PyQt Applications | Writer
The TSA doesn't OWN the airport.
The TSA IS in fact a government organization.
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
I think few Americans right now realize that congress is working, yesterday and today, on passing (not just writing or introducing, but passing, it's already through the house and now up for vote in the senate) a bill that will end habeas corupus and legalize torture:
+ habeas&hl=en&hs=GCv&lr=&safe=off&client=firefox&rl s=Swiftfox:en-US:unofficial&sa=X&oi=news&ct=titleo nID=40&ItemID=11071r yID=20060924-060744-4556rc le/2006/09/26/AR2006092601475.html
http://news.google.com/news?q=torture+bill+senate
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?Secti
http://www.upi.com/SecurityTerrorism/view.php?Sto
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/arti
Habeas corpus is one of the oldest tenets of western civilization, predating the U.S. Constitution and even the Magna Carta, and it says, simply, that if someone is to be held in custody by the state, there must be a demonstrable reason for their imprisonment. It is the basis of "probable cause," "warrants" of arrest, and your right to a trail to establish your guilt or innocence.
This bill not only legalizes torture acts against enemy combatants by the U.S. government, it also gives the president and the secretary of defense the authority to unilaterally decide who is an enemy combatant, without review, oversight, process, or documentation of any kind, and to act on that decision, without trial, documentation, or any means of appeal. The standard for being an enemy combatant is essentially that you don't "support" America in some way or another, not according to some objective standard of evidence, but again according to the personal impression of either the president or the secretary of defense. This includes American citizens.
Once they decide you are an enemy combatant, you can be picked up, with no warrant or probable cause, no evidence, and no process other than "the feds said you don't support America." They no longer need evidence. Under this statute no right to trail or judicial review will exist (because you are now like those at Gitmo, rather than a citizen), and you can be tortured at will.
This is what the senate is working on YESTERDAY AND TODAY. It's likely already too late to affect the outcome, but if you haven't yet it might be a good day to call your senator and say that you OPPOSE the bill that legalizes arbitrary indefinite detention at the whim of the president and the legalization of torture.
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
That's Too Stupid for Arby's, right? Most of the TSA screeners I've encountered are nothing more than slack jawed idiots, unable to get jobs even as rent-a-cops.
Why are you so afraid. Did you lose some near and dear in that blast. I expect it must be personal, otherwise there is no need to be that afraid. After all more people die in car accidents due to another persons mistake, every year. Much more than the number of people died in that single incident. Terrorism is only dangerous to people who trade their liberty due to the fear. You have been terrorised. Maybe you should lock up yourself in a room somewhere and hope that nobody finds out where you are. It will be very safe in that room.
...accosted by an idiot.
Peering at an x-ray machine day in, day out, for hours on end at people's personal effects has got to be one of the most unexciting jobs in the world - unless you're some kind of perv with a fetish for such.
The idiot traveler didn't need to add to the consternation the TSA worker bees feel as they perform their duties. Similarly, the idiot TSA person overreacted whilst performing said duties. Fundamentally, this is an issue of personal responsibility, but unfortunately for the TSA puke, it will now reflect poorly on his agency.
Now comes the Slashdot "Victim" wave: waaaaaaaahhhh!!!! my rights! they've been bruised! I'm being oppressed here!
You people would make great Palestinians.
The above is not flame bait. Please mod back up to normal. Maybe it was modded so as a joke about oppresion? I dunno..
Well, since you're an Anonymous Coward, you could be a dog for all I care.
668: Neighbour of the Beast
A sane environmentalist, although I acknowledge the fundamental dichotomy.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
I was planning on wearing the "We will not be silent" T-shirt written in Arabic the next time I fly - now I could have one that says "Kip Hawley" is an idiot - then leave my iPod on "record" and see how much fun I could have.
Decisions, decisions, decisions....
52 Weeks, 52 Religions with John Hummel
And how the @#$(@^& is this flamebait? Did you visit any of the links? It's not like it's just liberal blogs or something, there's a UPI story and a Washington Post story in there!
If we could garner that sort of support there would be no need for a violent uprising, we could defeat them at the polls.
Unfortunately voter apathy makes that very unlikely anytime soon.
I want to shoot the messenger!
Your president arranged for the destruction of the WTC buildings. Even the one that wasn't even hit by a fucking plane.
Take off the blinders. America is worse off than Germany, 1939.
Well I was going to wear a shirt that said "I am not a terrorist, I'am and A$$ Hole" but now I think I will wear one that says "TSA, Under Paid, Under Educated, Over Rated Rent a Cop"
Hey for a safer America you should be willing to do anything, right?
If you have nothing to hide, they wouldn't pick you up, would they?
The terrorists have won by allowing a regime that wants to do things the same as the countries we accuse of "not being free & democratic". The fear of this irrational thing called terrorism is pathetic. More people die from lung cancer every year in the US. More people have died (or will soon) fighting a stupid war with no real goal, direction or possible positive outcome.
This country is slowly moving down the road of fascism or some other "new" form of dictatorship. When a government keeps it's society in check by fear and hatred, only bad things come of it. How long until we get our Hitler? Stalin? Moussolini?
We are not impervious to failure. The almighty dollar seems to be the only concern in the U$A. Pathetic when a country can spend billions on war and nothing to help the poor and sick.
Jesus wouldn't have voted for Bush that is for certain. War is not the solution to the current problems in the world. Our external policies over the last 50 years or so has assisted in creating this monster. When will people wake up and realize we (the country and our representatives) are not infallible? Hopefully not before it's too late.
Actually, your rights end about where you elect a raving loony called Bush to look after your "freedom"
Home fucking is killing prostitution.
The type of popular uprising you're talking about could never happen in the current era of mass media which is closely linked, if not directly controlled, by the government or the powerful interests standing behind the government.
If there was a 'majority or near majority' who understood the need for radical change then elections would resolve the issue in any event.
Read Pynchon.
I'll conceed your point that violent acts change us, however I take issue with how you make that point. You say Muslims did these acts, not radical Muslims. This implys that all Muslims are responsible and condone these terrible acts. Here you are dead wrong, radical Muslims are a very small percentage of the Muslim population thankfully. We would stand no chance agains 1.3 Billion (1) determined attackers.
So yes acts of terror change us, but only as much as we let them change us. In 2005 14,493 people died in terrorist attacks (2) while 43,443 died in traffic accidents (3). So why are we so worried about terrorism when we are more likely to be killed by a jack-hole talking on a cellphone? We are letting a relativly minor problem get blowen way out of proportion.
I don't think most people here are denying that terrorism is a Bad Thing (TM) but that they take issue with how it is being used as an excuse to take away our cival liberties. Sure it probably wasn't the smartest thing to do but a goverment official saying your right to free speach end is scary and wrong. Its not like he was claming that carying a knife or some banned object was protected by free speach. He made a harmless critasism and was punished for it, that shouldn't happen.
1: Major Religious Groups
(edit: Ah thank goodness for reasonable mods. In the time it took me to write this the parent went from 4 Insightfull to 0 Troll, Thank you.) -- I deliberately put misspellings and grammatical errors in my posts so I know who the dumb people are who respond to criticize my spelling, etc.2: Page 4, Table I
3: DOT Traffic Statistics
Lets have some fun,
Lets get 100,000 people to all go to the airport on the 5th of November at 10am with a lighter that has Kip Hawley is an Idiot writen on it.
Let them detain 100,000 people.
--
It's time to put the people back in "We the People"
-- I am the NRA, enough said...
"The incident raises a number of interesting questions and concerns regarding just where our rights end."
That's an easy one. Where George W. Bush and his collection of NeoCon Neanderthals begin, of course.
Yeah, Yeah, I know... Flamebait.
Due process; innocent until proven guilty; prohibitions against warrentless search and seizure, torture, cruel and unusual punishment - all gone.
Al-Qaeda - even unchecked - could NEVER destroy America. Our Lawbreaker-in-Chief can - and he is doing so every time he takes away another freedom.
That is the day from when I and others like me are effectively excluded from air travel.
See, I have really bad eyesight, and wearing expensive contact lenses is the only practical remedy to my disability. As you may or may not know, proper maintenance and desinfection with specific hypoallergic products is critical. The sterile products I need come in 120ml and 300ml bottles, so I cannot take them with me any more. Transferring them to smaller bottles is a big no-no. I don't want any unsterile or mislabeled product in my eyes.
Delayed flights, lost luggage... How the hell am I going to cope with them ? Ever tried to get to correct product in an airport, or in the middle of the night in an unfamiliar city ?
If this is not addressed, my next flight in a few weeks may very well be the last.
Flourescent (adj): smelling like ground wheat.
abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
Unfortunately, at least in the U.S. - most public transportation seems to operate at a net loss all the time anyway. Our taxes always end up subsidizing broken business models for air, train and even bus travel.
So my guess is, even though people are trying harder to avoid air travel, it won't cause the airlines to fold up. They'll just run up higher operating costs that govt. steps in and pays to bail them out of.
(And yes, I *do* think fewer people are flying these days. Everyone I know working for a small to mid-sized company talks of their company looking into web-based training and video teleconferences in lieu of traveling to a site for training or meetings.)
I sort of see the Muslim world the way I saw Ireland when I was growing up. Sure, the IRA was bad, but they were blowing people up "for us." Onl;y with a bit of maturity did I see the IRA as the collection of thugs they are.
Thing is, most Irish people were silent about the IRA, and by silence gave approval. I think the same mechanism is at work in the Muslim world. So I challenge the Muslim world by throwing the radical violence in its face. The Muslim world can either disavow and hunt down its radicals, or throw in with them. I'm fine on that wither way.
As to your statistics, there is a difference between random acts and premeditated violence. This moral equivalence you're attempting to make between terrorism and traffic accidents is despicable.
As for the rest, I am in agreement with you: I did say in my original post that given my druthers I'd scrap the TSA and use its budget to pay bounties on anyone planning terror.
668: Neighbour of the Beast
We have always been at war. War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.
So freedom of speech doesn't exist in an airport. Who would have thought. Examples: Put the following on your t-shirt and try to enter the airport (or any public building): * I will blow up the airplane * Jesus was a motherfucking cocksucker * Allah Akhbar * Kill Bush * I like to fuck babies * You, security screener, are a lowlife nigger Yep. Freedom of speech does not exist. And for good reasons. I am always amused when people defend freedom of speech but when it comes down to it, that promise to defend nasty speech is always just an empty gesture.
We need T-Shirts that say "Kip Hawley is an idiot" and we need lots of folks to wear them while flying!
to me in line at the airport?
Or at least to insure you're subjected to the "deluxe" body cavity search, just to make sure.
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
As an enlisted member of the armed forces (ie: Private, Private First Class, Specialist, Lance Corporal, Corporal, Sergeant, etc...) you swear an oath to the officers in your command.
As an officer in the armed forces (ie: Luitenant, Captain, Major, Colonel, etc...) you swear an oath to the Constitution.
So while the private may agree that Rumsfield is a moron, they are still expected to follow their officers. The important question is what is the common opinion in the O-club?
-Rick
"Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
Like Alan Cox, I swore that once the DMCA passed, I would never to cross that border again until it was repealed.
:-(
Nothing I've seen happen since has in any way changed my resolve; only strengthened it. As a foreigner, I don't want to end up imprisoned, deported to some secret torture camp, or otherwise mistreated: and we now know the US actually does that.
I'll stay out of the US for the rest of my life. I try not to buy US made products and services; and I try to encourage my friends to do the same. Maybe, if the US economy tanks fast enough, they'll run out of money before they run out of places to invade.
Otherwise, the rest of the world is in big trouble.
Bah I'm sick of this shit. When did we become such a nation of pussies? I'm sure that any of my granparents would have snapped a potential terrorist's neck with their bare hands after 9/11. Heck either grandfather may have done it well before 9/11 (They always get evasive when they start talking about the war and you ask them if they ever killed a guy with their bare hands...) And John Wayne would have kicked the shit out of Tom Cruise all right.
Generations fought to keep the principles this country was founded on going. They fought against the idea of secret prisons and star courts and the government being able to make people disappear in the middle of the night. And we throw that all away because we're so preoccupied with the shit that we have and we're afraid that we might get killed by a terrorist?! Never mind that we lose as many people on a monthly basis as we did on 9/11 due to traffic accidents. We lose 10 times that number to tobacco related deaths. You're more likely to die from a paper cut than in a terrorist attack. It's a pretty thin excuse to let the Republicans destroy the foundations of our country. And the Democrats are no better. They may eventually lose on any given piece of legislation but they don't need to roll over and take it up the ass like the Republicans' inflatable love doll every time the Republicans try to ram one through.
I say we send them a clear message by voting all those retarded pig fuckers out of office in every single election until we get some leadership that's more interested in our well being than in sucking at the teat of the lobbyests and corporate sponsors in Washington. Register to vote, get out there and vote against the incumbant. If there's a third party running, vote for them. Don't whine at me about electronic voting machines being easily subverted either -- if you suspect that then find out how and subvert them! Vote Gary Coleman governor of California! And if you don't vote, don't complain. You didn't do so much as the least you could do to try to prevent this mess in the first place.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Here is a test I have wanted to do. Simply carry a paperback copy of the Quran with you through a TSA checkpoint. My bet is that you will be "randomly" selected for extra screening everytime. I would try this myself but I have given up on domestic air travel using Amtrak instead. Amtrak doesn't shake down their customers treating them like criminals.
Until the DoJ tries to claim that your freedom of speech is a danger to national security.
Then your lawsuit (usually) disappears.
:(){
>Whenever I see these threads about the US going to hell in a handbag I always ask, and how is this different? Sure there are somethings to be concerned about (e.g. domestic wiretapping.) But when people go on about how america isn't what it used to be, they loose at least some credibility in my eyes.
I was originally going to write about how different it is now, but you're right that for certain segments of the US population, this is just the same thing that has been going on throughout history. The biggest real difference in what is happening is that in the "good old days" the abuses were publicly condemned, as long as they were against white people. Now that the federal government is treating all of us like blacks under Jim Crow, it's interesting to see how much anger has been roused in just 5 years.
What do you think is the appropriate response? Martin Luther King? or the Black Panthers?
We are the 198 proof..
Actually this quote is not by Benjamin Franklin.
r $605
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin Wiki is your friend.
Also a scan of the original text can be seen http://www.futureofthebook.com/stories/storyReade
The actual quote by B.J. is ""Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power.""
I wasn't going for a moral equivalence between the US and Saddams Iraq. Domestic repression in Iraq was obviously far worse then the repression in the US at the moment. On an international scale things are a little different though.
This is besides my point.
My point was history didn't start on 9/11. I watched the first war in Iraq on TV as a child, it was rightly called the "Nintendo War", the footage from the military didn't show people dying, there were no mentions of the casualties we caused. Now as an adult I realise exactly what we did out there, to say I'm outraged is an understatement. I feel sick to the core knowing how much blood we spilled for our ends. And now I have this other view I can see that war the way that arabs and muslims around the world must have seen it. And now I know why they hate us so much. They were outraged at the time, but we couldn't / didn't want to hear them.
We can hear them now.
"If you unscrew Bill Gates' navel will the bottom fall out of the software market?"
Google up the phrase "at war with Oceania", quick.
This kind of news makes me sick. Calling someone an idiot does not make you a terrorist, except in the US.
Infringing rights, however, is the purpose of the law (and society). Since society has come into fruition, you have lost many inaliable rights. You are no longer allowed to murder, rape, and pillage. Of course, these things need a sense of moderation. I don't want to lose my right to free speech, for example. Never the less, the infringement of rights will not destroy society, it will merely change it. I said it once, I'll say it again. Your comparison is stupid
You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
Hopefully I'll get the chance to do the same someday, but I don't fly often.
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
This deserves to be seen by everyone.
Your rights don't end at all. You just have to fight for them. If you aren't willing to do that, then be prepared to be bullied like you're on a playground.
Remember- the right to assemble a militia to protect the people from the government is the primary way the people have kept the government in their place. We think of ourselves as more civil these days, but the point may come where you once again have to oust your criminal government by force. This is the constitutional way.
Now, it would be my luck that I would get stuck in line behind this Dickhead.
Or even worse yet, because this guy decides to use the Airport Checkpoint as a politcal soap box, he diverts the attention and focus off of screening bags and possibly risking my life, when something is missed in a an Xray. (We all know that TSA workers are generally uneducated, underpaid, and lower intelligence)
I get your point. Bush is a fucking moron and so is everyone he appoints or hires. If you don't like it, see you in November or in 08.
If you woke up one morning with the blood of 3000+ people who died in Air related terrorist attacks, how would you run the TSA? Granted, a ziplock baggy with your toiletries in them is kind of stupid, but a week ago, you had NO toiletries. I'm sorry you can't carry your gallon sized container of Aussie hair gel with you on your trip to Disney World.
Free speech is one thing. I love it, I practice it, and I would die to protect it (even if it was offensive speech). Speech can become damaging, and that's were you have to draw the line. Speak all you want, but when you injure, or inconvenience others, you become a SHITHEAD. (aka. That Guy) Stand out side the Security gate with a sign, or megaphone yelling your opinion, but stay the fuck out of the line, and let the TSA people do their job the best they can.
---Yes, Kip Hawley is an idiot.
Then perhaps you weren't paying attention.
For one thing, you've lost the right to a speedy trial by jury of your peers, and due process. You've lost your fifth amendment rights against self-incrimination. You have lost your 8th amendment rights that protects you from cruel and unusual punishment.
"What's that?" you say? That hasn't happened to me!
Perhaps not yet. But once one of us has lost those rights, all of us have lost those rights.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
Generally speaking, Americans who want to be informed go to alternate sources for their news and analysis, since network television news is all about ratings, ratings, ratings.
Will something your dog ate KILL YOU!? Find out at 11!
NPR is a fantastic source for news (and as a bonus you get to hear stuff from David Sedaris and other humorists; the Artie Lange interview from 2 weeks ago was fantastically poignant and can be had via pod/audcast from npr.org)
For printed media most of the progressives I know head right to the Economist, and for crapper reading, The Week. (The Week is fluffier but attempts to represent an even keel by publishing articles from all sides of an issue. It's still blurby and sound-bytes though, with not a helluva lot of analysis)
Another=, oddly, great printed source is the Christian Science Monitor. Its bias is very centrist; some argue it's the least biased news source in the nation, but I've heard that mostly from conservatives so I salt it. :)
Other than the print media, however, there's not much going on in the "news" business that's worthwhile. Which is a disturbing and sad fact, but it is what it is and citizens who wish to remain vigilant and fight the good fight still have tools to do so.
You better watch out, there may be dogs about . .
After all - can you tell me what you consider to be "essential" liberty?
In this case, "essential" does not mean "necessary." It means, "The essence." As in, essential oils. Benjamin Franklin was referring to the liberties that are the essence of freedom-- the right to participate in society without interference. And those were laid down in the Constitution. Please note Amendments 9 & 10, which state the listing of freedoms in the constitution is not meant "to deny or disparage others retained by the people."
It *is* rhetoric, true enough. But the circumstances surrounding the quote (the founding of a Constitutional democracy after a bitter war for freedom) was not rhetorical. There is more than enough documentation to come to a fair definition of "essential liberty."
That quote, to put it bluntly, is utter shit. Please drop the useless rhetoric and learn that quotes are often not applicable to real-world situations.
Uhm, no. It's not shit. And it does apply. It was not meant to be taken literally, as much rhetoric is not. Your examples are shit, and you know it. What Franklin was saying was this: a society that gives up its liberty for some ill-defined "safety" has given up both liberty and safety. The liberties we have sacrificed recently have not made us more safe. They have just made us less free. The fact we gave them up willingly, as a society, just means we're all fucking idiots to throw away what our forefathers fought so hard to achieve.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
eventually, it won't be worth the paper its written on.
If this approach to paying off govt. debt is used, the cash crash would be worse than hyper-inflation in Germany during the thirties. (There's so much more money in circulation.)
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
Your units are messed up.
The units are Newton-seconds, not Newtons.
Fascism starts when the efficiency of the government becomes more important than the rights of the people.
"The incident raises a number of interesting questions and concerns regarding just where our rights end."
There is no interesting question about where our rights end. Our rights themselves continue to be what they were. The interesting question is where our rights begin to be oppressed.
If you fail to grasp this important distinction, you are granting others power over your inalienable rights.
With reasonable men I will reason; with humane men I will plead; but to tyrants I will give no quarter. -- William Lloyd
The entire Democratic Party and its supporters are regularly referred to as traitors, leftists, and sympathizers of Islamic extremists. While in the McCarthy era, members of the Communist Party (a relatively small group) were persecuted, we now see the main opposition party in a so-called democracy tarred as treasonous. This is why some of us suspect that the true Republican agenda involves something like a one-party dictatorship - they cannot tolerate ANY opposition.
That happened about six years ago.
With his executive decrees, disregard for the law and the constitution, secret prisons, use of torture, and his blatant lying to the American public, I think it's fair to say Herr Bush fits the definition of dictator.
Si la vida me da palo, yo la voy a soportar Si la vida me da palo, yo la voy a espabilar
We are secure as in, "Secure your luggage." As in, "bound."
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
Somewhat off topic, but it's the bigger picture I think.
Before it was if "God" (preachers) said so, it must be true. It's your right and duty to get it done, whichever way possible. All the license plates that say "support our troops" and "God bless America", that's what they are all saying. If you don't support the US decision by Bush to invade Iraq, or be fully supportive of everything our current administration does, then you're opposing America, God, and homemade old-fashioned traditional apple pie. So of course morons like this want such a bill to be passed. Or how about, going back even further, the Crusades, or how about Nazi Germany. I'm not saying it's the same thing obviously, but it has the same kind of zelot mindset behind it. Everyone knows this if you've been living in the US since 911.
Also painful is the fact that the whole concept opposes the very core ideas of the way the US government was set up. Major change won't occur unless you get people so pissed off that they shout revolution, so the Constitution was meant to lag behind a ways until there was enough protest for change. The people in Iraq clearly weren't pissed off enough yet to have their own revolution, and we CERTAINLY shouldn't MAKE them have one. That's contradictory to it's own definition. I have little doubt in my mind that in the future (if not already) Bush will be known as one of the worst presidents ever in dozens of ways.
Promote true freedom - support standards and interoperability.
thanks for that, I got it from a quotes of the day ages ago.. it does say on wiki quote: With the information thus far available the issue of authorship of the statement is not yet definitely resolved, but the evidence indicates it was very likely Franklin. whoever wrote it it's a good quote in this case.
--
While I generally am against torture, recognizing that you can get anyone to say anything under torture, my definition of torture is probably different from that of Amnesty Int., et al.
But let's review exactly what the Geneva Convention says about "combatant status" (from http://www.genevaconventions.org/). My reading here leads me to belive that few if any of the "detainees" are eligible for "combatant status", and are therefore not really protect by the Geneva Convention. So while decrying "torture" like being made to bark like a dog, bear in mind that journalists, humanitarian workers, and civilians are being totured and perhaps decapitated by those you want to label as "combatants".
combatant status
Combatants have protections under the Geneva Conventions, as well as obligations.
Convention I offers protections to wounded combatants, who are defined as members of the armed forces of a party to an international conflict, members of militias or volunteer corps including members of organized resistance movements as long as they have a well-defined chain of command, are clearly distinguishable from the civilian population, carry their arms openly, and obey the laws of war. (Convention I, Art. 13, Sec. 1 and Sec. 2)
See wounded combatants for a list of protections.
Convention II extends these same protections to those who have been shipwrecked (Convention II, Art. 13)
Convention III offers a wide range of protections to combatants who have become prisoners of war. (Convention III, Art. 4)
For example, captured combatants cannot be punished for acts of war except in the cases where the enemy's own soldiers would also be punished, and to the same extent. (Convention III, Art. 87)
See prisoner of war for a list of additional protections.
However, other individuals, including civilians, who commit hostile acts and are captured do not have these protections. For example, civilians in an occupied territory are subject to the existing penal laws. (Convention IV, Art. 64)
The 1977 Protocols extend the definition of combatant to include any fighters who carry arms openly during preparation for an attack and during the attack itself, (Protocol I, Art. 44, Sec. 3) but these Protocols aren't as widely accepted as the four 1949 conventions.
In addition to rights, combatants also have obligations under the Geneva Conventions.
In the case of an internal conflict, combatants must show humane treatment to civilians and enemies who have been wounded or who have surrendered. Murder, hostage-taking and extrajudicial executions are all forbidden. (Convention I, Art. 3)
For more protections afforded the civilian population, see civilian immunity.
Although all combatants are required to comply with international laws, violations do not deprive the combatants of their status, or of their right to prisoner of war protections if they are captured. (Protocol I, Art. 44, Sec. 2)
A mercenary does not have the right to be a combatant or a prisoner of war. (Protocol I, Art. 37)
> then the other guys who wanted to come onboard with liquid explosives
T error_Plot_Fiction_Underscoring_0918.html ) :
Yes, the guys who didn't have passports and tickets yet and who haven't been charged with anything yet.
Well, they planned to use some strange "liquid explosives", I personally have at least some knowlegde in chemistry and don't believe this.
But let's hear what others say (taken from http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Sources_August_
---
"The idea that these people could sit in the plane toilet and simply mix together these normal household fluids to create a high explosive capable of blowing up the entire aircraft is untenable," said Lt. Col. Wylde, who was trained as an ammunition technical officer responsible for terrorist bomb disposal at the Royal Army Ordnance Corps in Sandhurst.
---
However, science doesn't matter anymore and this story sounds very made up by Bliar's and Bush's regimes.
And I might add - most of the TV-Specials on German TV were even less accurate on the chemistry of explosives as they usually are on IT related stuff.
k2r
Well, unlike you, I'm being extremely polite. I will remember your extreme rudeness here today, and you can be sure I will moderate down such offensive comments by you (regardless of whether or not you are trolling).
Arbeit Macht Frei is the slogan that was posted above Auswitcz(sp?), a Nazi concentration camp. It means Work Makes Free, literally.
We have always been at war with Eurasia!
Reading through this thread leaves me with the impression that there are a lot of stupid people out there.
First; NOT ALL AIRPORTS are owned by the federal government.
Second; Not all of the security check points are manned by federal government employees.
Third; The biggest problem with Bush is that he is guided by religion in his management of the war against terrorism. Unfortunately wars are won by slaughtering people wholesale, not by trying to persuade them to moderate their beliefs. If people are really concerned about their rights in this country then they should be demanding the systematic de-population of the Arab world.
Fourth; Torture has been proven to be highly effective through out history. In this case it really shouldn't be a problem anyway as the people we have captured, from the middle east, should all be put to death anyways. Might as well get what useful information out of them that you can.
It is nice that everyone is concerned about their rights or at least the rights they have a personal interest in, but people have to realize that there is a culture out there that is entirely useless to humanity. So if you are concerned about your rights, and I'd have to say it is at least a reasonable concern you really have to press the federal government to take brutal action against the forces operating against us in the Arab world. Clearly we should be demanding the nuking of most of the middle east to completely render that culture as a figment of history.
It really has nothing to do with religion, it simply the fact that the Arab world has become such a negative impact on the development of humanity. Burnt out most of the cities over there and educate the people that remain to some sort of contemporary standard of intelligence and we might get some where. To do otherwise is to give up and relive the past couple of hundred years.
Dave
So if I have a grudge against someone I can make up some bs story and drop a dime (or 50 cents nowadays) on them? Great! Even if they aren't held in prison for years they'd be at the very least heavily hassled and scared, they might be detained for months, lose their job (can't show up, management doesn't trust them anymore), home (not there to send in the mortgage check), and maybe even financially impovershed by having to hire a lawyer. I'm glad to see that the US is starting to resemble Stalin's USSR.
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
D'oh. Many, Many (grovelling) appologies... I Got confused with Oceania (Australia/etc) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oceania ;-)
And to think I actually had to "Read" 1984 for my English GCSE course (In my defence that was some 15 years ago...)
Looks like I have to stand by my comments on the British educational system, then
Will read 1984 again (properly this time...)
You just *know* than my other sig is funny...
Well said. They need to remember Kennedy's words... We will do it, not because it is easy, but because it is hard. Strangling freedom is easy. Trampling rights is easy. But the true measure of a person, or a country, is not in taking the easy way out, but in taking the right way, the hard way regardless of the cost.
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
"his blatant lying to the American public"
It is not a lie if you believe it to be true. King George believes in an alternate universe from ours where invading a country without reasonable justification isn't a war crime (even though some Axis leaders were hung at Nuremburg and Japan for the exact same crime) and spending $500 billion on the DOD after the Cold War is over isn't pissing away the taxpayer's money, corporate welfare, or encouraging arms races. Hope your kids and their kids are ready to foot the bill for our national debt.
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
gun control did not start out a liberal/conservative thing.
The first instances of gun control were the banning of firearms to slaves. Gun control rolled on after the civil war. A year after the war ended, Alabama put a total ban of firearms to blacks. Laws were passed in other southern states banning 'cheap' handguns (likely the only kinds that most blacks at the time could afford).
The gun control act of 1968 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_Control_Act) was signed by LBJ (after the JFK and MLK assassinations), so perhaps one could argue that modern gun control started with liberals.
Careful with that, "Fragile" seems to mean "Drop-kick box out onto street, then run over with truck" to a lot of package handlers...
Ever hear of "last temptation of christus" by I think scorseze ?
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
...stay inside. It's dangerous out there. Wrap yourselves in cotton and hide in the closet. Most importantly STFU and let the rest of us live free.
Makes me want to go on a weenie-killing rampage, it does.
>exhausting, aggravating, and sometimes demeaning struggle
That was the common description of daily life under Communism in the USSR. There were brutal police, prisons, and labor camps, but the everyday oppression was to make life so degrading that there was no time, energy, or hope to fuel real change.
>> Why can't people paid in the Security industry show any creativity or intelligence?
I'll give you an example and solve this problem with liquids;
>> Plan A:
Allow people to bring them on the airplane in a bag.
The bag gets the seat number written on it, and is handed to the attendants before people get on the plane.
Use some space for a cubby-hole that is labelled for all the seats and people can retrieve it when they leave.
>> Plan B:
Stop losing passenger luggage and don't have jerk-offs toss it like so much laundry, so that I feel safer risking my entire career by putting a laptop in checked baggage. I will fight tooth and nail right now to take my important equipment on carry-on, because I can't afford any excuses for why it doesn't show up when I arrive to run the multimedia for a convention.
>> Plan C:
Explain why liquids are any more of an issue now than they were before. I mean, Liquid explosives weren't invented by those 24 people in England who wanted to take them on airplanes. Why is it an issue AFTER you supposedly caught people, but not an issue before, while these people were being watched for 6 months -- at least tell us that you informed TSA staff about the possibility so that they could watch out for it without alerting suspects. At least that... or it's all bogus and designed to scare people.
ONE LAST POINT:
The biggest security risk I know of, that has gotten a pass so far on airplanes is Laptop batteries. Now that Sony has had a few burn up due to a defect, they are banning certain laptops.
But the risk has been there to use a capacitor and turn a laptop battery into a bomb -- they have a lot of energy in them.
OK, very last point:
Harden the internals of the airplane. Control access to the pilots. Bring back pillows and line them with Kevlar so that passengers could protect themselves and stop anyone with a basic weapon by merely a harmless pillow fight. And, apologize for jerking our chain, with the longest running joke. Nothing has really been done to protect America from attack behind the scenes -- you are just trying to make a good show of it, by removing shoes at airports and general hassling people in public view so that you can keep them thinking about the issue. Until you quit selling military bases to Dubai, harden a few Chemical plants, or at the very least follow the Democratic plan to spend $1 Billion to put scanners for neutrino emissions in all the ports -- then quit bothering me with this totally fabricated nonsense.
Either there are no "bad guys" or you want them to have access -- if something bad happens, it's no skin off your nose and allows the administration more Carté Blanche. I'll feel a lot safer once we get rid of these people; they are either incompetent, or evil -- and it is too hard to tell the difference.
>>"ad space available -- low rates!!!"
Security people, customs, etc. Not here. The worst I can say is they're sometimes harried when trying to get hundreds of impatient people through checkpoints in as expeditious a manner as possible while still trying to do their jobs effectively. And my experience is the majority of them still maintain a friendly demeanour even when faced with angry and upset travellers.
Doctors I think you're confusing arrogant and aloof with confident and assured. Almost every time I've been to a doctor, I've been happily assured they know what they're doing and at least give the impression they know me and care about me.
But perhaps I'm like a lot of the other people replying to your post...I start off treating people like human beings with dignity and respect. If you expect the best, you'll be surprised how often you get it. And vice versa.
Which, of course, doesn't make the subject story any better. But I think it's a particularly rotten aberration.
Kip Hawley can suck my unwiped ass!
Unfortunately, evidence is mounting that voting in the US is thoroughly rigged, and our ballots may not make any difference. However, our dollars will always have a vote!
People with any sort of power must be dealt with, swiftly, and with extreme prejudice, when they abuse their power and step over the line, even if only a little bit. I liken this to my 3 year old who is constantly testing his boundaries. If one day I forget to administer justice for crossing the line, the next day he crosses it a little more, and then a little more. Soon he thinks his actions are completely normal and its tough to reel him back in. It is human nature. This sort of behavior is unacceptable and if nothing happens, what is next? Perhaps someone might mutter "Man, this sucks" and the same TSA guy pulls out a stun gun and tazers the disgruntled traveler... OK, this is a bit extreme but the behavior documented is exactly how things get out of hand if left unchecked.
>how is this different?
Life imprisonment of citizens without trial, charge, or legal counsel. Attempts to block court review.
Hamdi, Hamdan(noncitizen), Padilla. This administration tried to hold them solely on the administration's say-so for the duration of the war on terror, in other words forever.
Lincoln's suspension of habeas corpus (for which he sought Congressional approval) and the concentration camps for Japanese-Americans (which were given a Supreme Court review, though one shamefully decided) happened during times when the fear, though not the actions, were justified. Lincoln acted when the country was already torn in two with the South shooting at the North. Roosevelt faced heavily armed enemies that had conquered entire nations. Neither would have pulled things like that in response to occasional atrocities committed by a few thousand fanatics in caves.
Go to http://www.senate.gov./
Use the "Find your Senator" box at the upper right. Sorry, Javascript required. If you already know who your Senators are you can skip this step.
Dial the phone numbers given.
Politely (the staff member is not to blame) and concisely (s/he is busy) explain your values about trials and torture.
Unless you are willing to extend 2nd amendment protections to things like fighter aircraft, cruise missiles, nerve gas, or nuclear weapons, that is.
The government has access to all of these and many more toys, as well as the ability to declare martial law, so a bunch of people with deer rifles don't exactly pose a serious threat to their power.
Personally, I think actions like a general strike would be far more useful than guns for bringing down the system...
Remember "News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters"? Help make it a reality again! http://soylentnews.org
If the legislators and the judges all belong to the same party;
if that party enforces rigid discipline;
if that party includes the power-hungry;
then you have a dictatorship regardless of what's on paper.
By allowing those dissent messages, it will take no time slashdot being shut down due to security and classified reasons by Bush administration. To bad, whoever owns shares of slashdot, go sell now.
Funny you ask.
See:
"`Sec. 950fff. Wrongfully aiding the enemy
`Any person subject to this chapter who, in breach of an allegiance or duty to the United States, knowingly and intentionally aids an enemy of the United States, or one of the co-belligerents of the enemy, shall be punished as a military commission under this chapter may direct."
If I'm not mistaken, the Bush administration and even Tony Snow have already made multiple statements to the press about how the Democrats are knowingly helping Al-Qaeda. Certainly right-wing talking heads like Limbaugh and Hannity routinely name Democrats as providing willfull and material support to the enemy.
If a government is happy to legalize torture, and happy to demonize opposing parties as "providing material support to the enemy," is it really such a jump to believe they might eventually leverage this in order to detain and torture those from opposing parties, especially if they feel that their grasp on power is starting to slip?
Sorry, but it reads too much like tropes that have been used by totalitarian states around the world for this Democrat be even close to comfortable with it.
Didn't you ever wonder how they made all those Free Speech Zones at presidential events? They clearly cut them out of American airports. As a result, due to the laws of thermopolitics, there are "holes" in the free speech layer.
Terrorists can attack freedom, but only Congress can destroy it.
This is the important part, near the end.
"SEC. 6. HABEAS CORPUS MATTERS.
(a) In General- Section 2241 of title 28, United States Code, is amended--
(1) by striking subsection (e) (as added by section 1005(e)(1) of Public Law 109-148 (119 Stat. 2742)) and by striking subsection (e) (as added by added by section 1405(e)(1) of Public Law 109-163 (119 Stat. 3477)); and
(2) by adding at the end the following new subsection:
`(e)(1) No court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider an application for a writ of habeas corpus filed by or on behalf of an alien detained by the United States who--
`(A) is currently in United States custody; and
`(B) has been determined by the United States to have been properly detained as an enemy combatant or is awaiting such determination.
`(2) Except as provided in paragraphs (2) and (3) of section 1005(e) of the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005 (10 U.S.C. 801 note), no court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider any other action against the United States or its agents relating to any aspect of the detention, transfer, treatment, trial, or conditions of confinement of an alien detained by the United States who--
`(A) is currently in United States custody; and
`(B) has been determined by the United States to have been properly detained as an enemy combatant or is awaiting such determination.'.
(b) Effective Date- The amendments made by subsection (a) shall take effect on the date of the enactment of this Act, and shall apply to all cases, without exception, pending on or after the date of the enactment of this Act which relate to any aspect of the detention, transfer, treatment, trial, or conditions of detention of an alien detained by the United States since September 11, 2001."
It applies to "aliens," yes. But all they have to do is call you an "alien" and pick you up. Even if you HAVE a passport, a social security card, a driver's license, and a medal of honor, NO COURT would have the jurisdiction to hear your case saying: "Yes, but I'm a citizen!"
There would be no place for you to assert that you weren't an alien!
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
Why "must" security take disparaging comments seriously? How do insults put people's lives at risk? How can the inability to accurately assess threats increase security? Why would a terrorist try to pick an argument with security?
And why do so many people argue with people who ask these questions?
There was an amendment to the bill from the Democrats that would have resotred to the House version of the bill the removed protections. It's the amendment that was killed. :-(
Basically, some of the Senate said "Woah, that house version goes too far!" and they tried to tone it down. But once it got out of committee, the Senate as a whole smashed it and has gone on to procedure regarding the full-strength House version of the bill.
You can read both at senate.gov (see the right-hand column).
As I quoted to another poster, this is the most important bit:
"SEC. 6. HABEAS CORPUS MATTERS.
(a) In General- Section 2241 of title 28, United States Code, is amended--
(1) by striking subsection (e) (as added by section 1005(e)(1) of Public Law 109-148 (119 Stat. 2742)) and by striking subsection (e) (as added by added by section 1405(e)(1) of Public Law 109-163 (119 Stat. 3477)); and
(2) by adding at the end the following new subsection:
`(e)(1) No court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider an application for a writ of habeas corpus filed by or on behalf of an alien detained by the United States who--
`(A) is currently in United States custody; and
`(B) has been determined by the United States to have been properly detained as an enemy combatant or is awaiting such determination.
`(2) Except as provided in paragraphs (2) and (3) of section 1005(e) of the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005 (10 U.S.C. 801 note), no court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider any other action against the United States or its agents relating to any aspect of the detention, transfer, treatment, trial, or conditions of confinement of an alien detained by the United States who--
`(A) is currently in United States custody; and
`(B) has been determined by the United States to have been properly detained as an enemy combatant or is awaiting such determination.'.
(b) Effective Date- The amendments made by subsection (a) shall take effect on the date of the enactment of this Act, and shall apply to all cases, without exception, pending on or after the date of the enactment of this Act which relate to any aspect of the detention, transfer, treatment, trial, or conditions of detention of an alien detained by the United States since September 11, 2001."
You'll notice that the bill claims to apply to aliens. But once you're picked up as an alien, no court has jurisdiction to review your status. So if they come by your house to pick you as a citizen up, there is no way for you to say "No way, dude, I'm a citizen!" because the moment you're picked up, the courts lose jurisdiction.
If they decide you're an alien, not a citizen, that's it under the law. And who is they? At the top of the bill it spells out clearly: the Secretary of Defense or anyone he designates. So, basically: party members.
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
Mod away. The subject line says it all, thank God.
668: Neighbour of the Beast
At least their training would have them act that way. Trust me on this, I've been there and the vast majority of the people are pretty thoughtless in most ways. But what's more, the training and standing orders are pretty brain-dead as well. They are to be looking for "anything unusual." I'd say this guy's stunt was pretty unusual. Constitutional law is NOT a part of their training. If it were, they'd be seriously disturbed by what their job calls for them to do.
But you can be sure that when someone in the TSA doesn't know quite what to do, they'll most likely screw it up just like this guy did. One thing about the story that surprises me is that the policeman didn't just send the joker on his way. The police ARE trained in law and should have recognized the risk involved. I have serious doubts as to the accuracy of the original story.
That would imply that it's something everyone doesn't already know...
Believe it or not, all that happened in Iraq happened as a result of UN resolutions.
The first Gulf War happened because Saddam decided to turn a sovreign nation into "Province 19". The UN ordered him out and a coalition force ejected him when he refused to go.
Afterwards, the UN imposed a set of sanctions to keep Saddam from posing a threat to his neighbours. Of course, Saddam bought the UN, starting at Kofi Annan, and turned the Oil-for-Food program into the Oil-for-Palaces-and-UN-payoffs program. Oh, and whatever money was left over was used to pay bounties to the families of suicide bombers for killing Jews.
Later, Saddam expelled UN employees attempting to monitor his regime's WMD programs. As a direct results of this, and a number of other violations of UN demands, a coalition force eventually took over Iraq.
None of this was for our ends. It was entirely UN-endorsed, right up to the point when Saddam's bribes took effect.
Finally, let me leave you a hypothetical. What would have happened to 15,000 (say) Christians, had Christian hijackers crashed airliners into Muslims buildings, killing 3,000 Muslims?
668: Neighbour of the Beast
That's because our US citizens on our Northern border have sent reports that the Canadians on the other side were (apologies to Denis Leary) "sharpening up their hockey skates and getting ready to come down here and take our cheese." If there's anything we've learned in these last 139 years of bitter strife with our neighbor to the North, it is that they are much more dangerous than they would lead us to believe, "Eh?" You know what I'm talking "aboot". I think once upon a time the threat was mainly military - concern that the Prime Minister would lead a charge of a million Mounties over the border, that their Dudley Dooright would at last triumph over our Uncle Sam and our doughboys in their vigilance along the border of the barbarous lands to the North. These days, I think the concern is more cultural and economic: that an influx of French-speaking tourists will erode our culture, and the great language of English in this, the land in which it was born. Or that imports of superior Canadian Beer would weaken our economy. Fortunately, however, the latter issue has proven to be of no great concern: We Americans love our cheap, watery beer, so you can keep your "Molson Golden" - I for one, am content to tap the Rockies... The Rockies on our side of the border.
(I hope the Northern Barbarians appreciate some good-natured ribbing...)
---GEC
I'm but the humble pupil, seeking to snatch the scratchbuilt pebble from the master's fully articulated hand
The URL leads to a page that says it's restricted. Registering for an account doesn't help. Searching for "kip idiot" in the Forums finds a thread, but does not yield the story described here. Googling for the phrase "Kip Hawley is an idiot" doesn't find anything.
Is this article a hoax?
There's a Mr. Gonzalez at the door to see you; something about taking you waterboarding? Is that what you kids call surfing nowadays?
http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/200609 27_kip_hawley_idio
Amercian Civil Liberties Union
Electronic Frontier Foundation
Donate $10 if you haven't this month. There are people looking out for us, they need MONEY.
Cool! Amazing Toys.
The government should fear screwing the people. But the shoe's on the other foot, the people are now afraid of the government. Therefore the people have lost the power.
In many ways, this is no longer a government of, by or for the people.
FWIW, I've voted both Democrat and Republican over the years. These days a great many in both parties disgust me. I'll likely vote for Kinky Friedman for governor of Texas simply because he isn't Republican, Democrat, or a whiny old bat who seems to be trying to give grandmas a bad name.
Yes, live in fear. That's exactly what you should do.
Pansy-ass pussy faggot. No wonder your country's fucked.
I always write-in my Mom's name. She could do any of those jobs, hell, she'd make a great President.
Title 18, U.S.C., Section 242
Deprivation of Rights Under Color of Law
This statute makes it a crime for any person acting under color of law, statute, ordinance, regulation, or custom to willfully deprive or cause to be deprived from any person those rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution and laws of the U.S.
This law further prohibits a person acting under color of law, statute, ordinance, regulation or custom to willfully subject or cause to be subjected any person to different punishments, pains, or penalties, than those prescribed for punishment of citizens on account of such person being an alien or by reason of his/her color or race.
Acts under "color of any law" include acts not only done by federal, state, or local officials within the bounds or limits of their lawful authority, but also acts done without and beyond the bounds of their lawful authority; provided that, in order for unlawful acts of any official to be done under "color of any law," the unlawful acts must be done while such official is purporting or pretending to act in the performance of his/her official duties. This definition includes, in addition to law enforcement officials, individuals such as Mayors, Council persons, Judges, Nursing Home Proprietors, Security Guards, etc., persons who are bound by laws, statutes ordinances, or customs.
Punishment varies from a fine or imprisonment of up to one year, or both, and if bodily injury results or if such acts include the use, attempted use, or threatened use of a dangerous weapon, explosives, or fire shall be fined or imprisoned up to ten years or both, and if death results, or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.
--Chag
Senate just struck down the Habeas Corpus amendment to the proposed bill. Mostly at the urging of John McCain, who knows the reality of torture all too well. compared to all these rich boys who have never even gotten as much as a spanking for anything they've done, he knows the pain of it. I expect that this bill will not pass without being heavily chopped down to the point where the president will veto it as it stands, the habeas corpus bit being removed is enough for it to be vetoed.
i sts/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2& vote=00255#position
hrmm, is it odd that my captcha is "wiretaps" ?
Also, this debunks the slashdot crowd's theory that the republicans are passing all these unconstitutional laws:
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_l
Look at all them D's by the names of people who voted Yea on the issue. (yea as in, for stripping the habeas corpus right, nay as in against stripping that right)
I'm not pro-republican or pro-democrat, so dont think I'm pushing the republicans over the democrats here, both are equally fucked and the best solution this november would be to dump both with the exception of the few who still actually do their job.
private airline has no power to detain anyone whatsoever, or to search anyone for that matter:
Just like Wal-mart can't search and detain a shoplifter, or JC penny, or Dillards. If I think someone who broke though my window has some of my wifes jewelry in her pocket I can't do anything against his will? Bullshit. If someone comes on my property and is stealing stuff or threatening, or I "THINK" he is threatening my family I probably won't detain him. He's welcome to leave to the best of his ability with that big shotgun crater in his head. Corporations and individuals have greater rights than the police because they AREN'T the government.
It's becoming a great stunt to wear provocative messages on a T-Shirt AND behave like an ass just to stir up a confrontation. I'm a gringo, if I wore a shirt outside my house (in the primary hispanic area of town) saying that all mexicans were wetbacks I'd get a cap in my ass, and nobody in town would give a crap because it was my stupid activity that got me there in the first place. This guy knew what he was stirring up, and then cried when he got what he wanted. I've said it before and I'll say it again. If someone got on my plane with my baby and wife with a T-Shirt that said something bad about the company employees or FAA employees I'd get my family off that plane immediately at the very least, and I'm sure I'd be at the back of that exit line. What company would put up with that crap in their store/plane. What a grade A Idiot/ass this guy is.
Give me a break. These people printing up 10 dollar T-shirts so that they can be a shithead to everyone in the airport need to grow up and get a life.
I was bored one trip years ago (Cold War era) and I needed something to read so I started reading the fine print on my plane ticket. Several clauses into it the ticket stated that airports are not US territory, that they are "subject to international law". Basically you may be a US citizen with the protection of US law, but once you set foot in the airport, you're only afforded the protections that "international law" provides. Not necessarily the same thing, especially when it comes to "minor" rights like freedom of speech. Try saying "bomb" or greeting your friend with "Hi, Jack!" Once I found out about that, I treat all airports like I would if I was in an embassy building, or in a foreign country. The "natives" (workers) are not my people.
By the taping of my glasses, something geeky this way passes
...welcome our alien overlords.
Read my short stories - You won't regret it.
Discouraging people from flying is part of the Bush administration plan to reduce carbon dioxide emissions.
Fuck! I had moderation points yesterday but they expired!
Anyway, thanks for your words. That's the most insightful thing I've read in days. And concise.
The antonym of international waters is airport security checkpoint.
Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
...They definitely show up artists for what they truly are.
I mean, display a crucifix in a container of urine and bask in the adulation of your peers, as Christians complain.
Show the head of the Prophet on a plate? Run in terror from the production, for fear of your own beheading.
668: Neighbour of the Beast
A leftie free trade advocate and fiscal conservative, who would've thunk it?
You better watch out, there may be dogs about . .
I provided a couple of links. I'd appreciate some in return. Thanks in advance.
And actually, I think the only thing this Administration has done well is fight the GWoT. For example, I really worry about the way this administration spends - like a drunken sailor. I also think that Republicans deserve to lose to Democrats in the upcoming elections. Unfortunately, there's nobody for them to lose to.
You see, the Republicans may be wrong, but they are serious. Democrats may be wrong, but they're frivolous. There is a difference.
668: Neighbour of the Beast
".. it's a lot harder to shoot at your own people, no matter how you're trained."
Kent State.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings
It was the National Guard, guys about the same age and quite possibly some of them went to grade school with some of the people they shot at. Still think your safe?
Get 'em if you don't got 'em :-|
It was written "out there"! I am not responsible what you chose to read "in here".
You could've hired me.
With his executive decrees, disregard for the law and the constitution, secret prisons, use of torture, and his blatant lying to the American public, I think it's fair to say Herr Bush fits the definition of dictator.
IMO, that puts him more in league with Dick Nixon than an out-and-out dictator... bad, but someone we won't have to live with after the next Presidential election. If he's still in office after 2/09, or if Cheney moves up despite being almost universally disliked, then we can seriously talk about dictators, rather than meer power-hungry politicians.
Luke, help me take this mask off
I know I would fight for it.
I will blow up the airplane is a threat. The others I have no problems with.
Is there an actual news article anyone can link here? If this "news" comes only from a bunch of people bitching on some lame bulletin board, I'm inclined to not believe a word of it.
You're referring to a balance of power between the parties, not between the branches of government. Our politicans think of themselves first as Democrat/Republican, then Legislative or Executive. It was supposed to be the other way around.
oh how the irony is killing me its always darkest before it goes pitch black
Last summer my wife and I were going through security in Syracuse, and she was on crutches, recovering from knee surgury, at the time. The guy at the metal detector got pissed at her when she said that she couldn't walk through without the crutches.
If that isn't being an ass for no good reason, please tell me what qualifies in your book.
"I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
But what I'm wondering is why people think it's a good idea to go out of your way to be rude or insulting. If you shout "pig" at every cop you pass in the street, pretty soon you will find somone who takes it to heart and will give you a bad time. Maybe this is a violation of your freedom of speech. But why do it in the first place?
Freedom.
If you don't feel safe calling a police officer a name, how will you ever summon the courage to walk into a police station, surrounded by armed officer, and write up a formal complaint under their very noses?
If you don't feel safe calling a police officer a name, because you fear his abuse should you do so-- how much more afraid might you be if you witness him committing a rape, or a murder? Will you still dare to do you civic duty, and speak out against him? Hopefully, but perhaps not.
People who draw out and expose those unfit for duty deserve our praise, not our condemnation. If someone is a bad cop, and prone to abuses of authority, better we find out early, in small matters, rather than late, in big ones...
Our rights end outside the boundaries of the United States. And if Nero Bush doesn.t understand this there is the remedy of the rope and the tree.
In Soviet Russia... wait... that's just the ugly truth :(
What exactly are "inalienable rights" anyway? We say they are something that everyone has, but it's like money - only worth something if people believe that it is worth something. Arguing whether those rights are oppressed or have been removed is an exercise in pedantry. I could equally argue that my right not to be "taken or imprisoned upon the appeal of a woman for the death of any other than of her husband" (article 34 of the Magna Carta) was oppressed when it was repealed by the Statute Law Revision Act 1863 (c.125) and Statute Law (Ireland) Revision Act 1872 (c.98)*.
* http://www.davros.org/legal/magna_carta.html (I ain't a lawyer!)
I like my coffee the way I like my women - roasted and ground up into little tiny pieces.