Slashdot Mirror
The Demise of Model Rocketry?
Mark Lytle writes "Due to restrictions imposed by the rather broad Homeland Security Act, the hobby I suspect many Slashdotters, being technology buffs, grew up with, the Estes Model Rocket is now firmly on the endangered species list. The little cardboard rockets I learned science with in high school are evidently suspected of being potential weapons of mass destruction. Go figure. Perhaps by getting involved, we can stop this sillyness... Anyway, i hope so...."
Build your own with instructions taken off the 'Net. Nobody will lock you up - problem solved.
Funny, are these things more dangerous than the guns you americans are so fond of?
Next thing I know my model plane will be considered a spyplane if I mount a video camera on it. Actually, I shouldn't give them ideas.
Wait until they realize what happens when you mix those two together and strike a match!
Little chance of gasoline being outlawed (if it were this whole war business would be out the window), so I guess soap has to go.
Maybe it's for the best, what with the future of the space program in jeopardy and all. Why turn children's eyes to the heavens when they have no chance of ever making it there. Still it's sad that millions of young people will never know the joy of sending live crickets hurtling into the wild blue yonder.
Try and stop me from using my 12 foot blimp.
Causing Chaos Everywhere,
Nik J.
The strange world of a loner, in a populous city, drowning in society
now this is just ridiculous. one of those rockets is hardly a "weapon of mass destruction". i'm sure people have broken windows or maybe injured themselves using these, but they can hardly be used in an offensive way, right? or maybe i'm just underestimating the inventiveness of kids these days...
i'm glad i live in the philippines, where you're free to blow up your hands with fireworks however you can.
It might look like I'm standing motionless, but I'm actively waiting for my problems to go away
Over this side of the pond getting hold of engines bigger than the Estes D-size is a nightmare, you need to have licences to handle explosives, have your address registered as a storage area for explosives etc before you can even think of buying them. Shipping doesn't appear to be a problem - they stick them in a van and have them driven to you, for a princely sum - but it is an utter fucking nightmare to get hold of the big 'uns.
I don't see why they do it either, D-class motors aren't exactly likely to propel a warhead any significant distance. Then again, we have had the IRA and friends (and enemies!) on our doorstep for over twenty-five years now...
-Mark
Richard Simmons Videos - obviously a terrorist, have you see all those fat people "suffering to the oldies". Excercise is unamerican.
Chess Boards - Obviously the game of chess is nothing more than a war-game simulation with black and white pieces, obviously increasing racial tension.
Linux Operating System and all GNU Products - If I didn't know any better I'd suspect that someone must be funding these "free" projects, obviously since it's not American to give things out for free, it must be terrorism funding.
PokeMon - it's anime, obviously unamerican.
Honorable Mentions Include:
Duke Nuke Um Forever ... silly putty (ain't nothing silly about it)
The Flying/Electric Car
The True OJ Story
And
Ignore the "p2p is theft" trolls, they're just uninformed
When I was in college, we used to glue fins and the little straw directly on the engines, and made a rocket launcher out of a poster mailing tube. A nine-volt battery and a Radio Shack switch for a trigger and we were ready to go. There was a construction trailer down the road and we used it for target practice.
Good times.
Does anybody know?
Like the stupid name, for example. Also their lawsuit with the National Association of Rocketry.
All that said, I think the Patriot act restrictions that people transporting explosive cargos should be trained to deal with them safely is incredibly stupid. Would you expect a train driver to know how the storage requirements for HF? I thought not. Why require a truck driver to know the same thing for model rocket engines?
'Nuff said.
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
...but when I was a teenager oh so many years ago, we actually did make destructive devices out of model rockets. No guidance system, but boy did they go BOOM when they hit their target (usually wrecked cars at a local junkyard) and the makeshift warhead went BOOM.
However that may be, outlawing them seems to be going a bit too far. A determined terrorist doesn't need a kit to build a bomb or even a crude missile.
There's a boatload of stuff that be used in terrorist acts. Paper can start a fire. Rags and alcohol can also be used. Gasoline can be used to light a subway on fire. But somehow I don't see them banning gasoline or alcohol. So they have to pick on model rockets? A hobby that encourages people to learn about science in a fun way and encourages young minds to consider real careers.
You know, before I went into technology, I used to be a research biologist. Hobbies like Model ROcketry are what kept me interested in science as a kid led me to pursue all science.
You know, if we had recuiters for Pharmaceuticals stading outside of colleges offering new graduates 10.2 million over 3 years, then cancer would have been cured 10 years ago. Why do athletes, that contribute NOTHING to society, get paid the most in our society?
...I'm not sure about a weapon of mass destruction, but if you jam a C-sized rocket into a heavily modified Alpha and launch it sideways at a crowd by accident (that whole safety key issue is for wimps, after all), I think we've got a weapon of mass panic (WMP).
Not that I'm speaking from experience.
and you haven't had the balls to do anything about them that whole time.
who knew the British would end up being so French.
"Stop! or we'll say Stop! again and let you shoot us anyway!"
The nuns in my elementary school outlawed paper planes, spitballs, match flipping and other various incendiaries and projectiles decades ago. I hope Sister Mary Discipline claims prior art and stops this madness.
Instead of using the nasty word "Rocket" we should rename the hobby the Vertical Paper Propulsion Game.
But really now, you'd need like, 50 Estes E engines to launch a hand grenade a few feet away. I think a terrorist is more likly to use a pickup truck to get a bomb around.
Outdoor digital photography, mostly in New Engl
It's because, on radar, they look just like stealth nuclear missles - at least until the little parachute pops open, but by then it's DEFCON5 anyway....
I imagine it's because they might be used to disperse chemical agents, though the best I was ever capable of was dispering little model rocket parts.
The Department of Homeland Security has quickly begun to erode your rights. Next thing you know, they'll be measuring the amount of methane gas you expell after a trip to Taco Bell. Those who expell too much will be considered a threat to National Security and incarcerated without legal representation.
Wake up you sheep!
When the going gets tough, the average get conservative - Henry Rollins
Word Axis
Didn't you know? Rocketry, especially model rocketry, is a well known secret art. With some bubble gum, a cardboard tube, an m-80 and some match shavings, we can make "weapons of mass destruction" that can traverse many miles from iraq to the US.
C'mmon. What's the sense in this. Really. Anyone could be as dangerous with a potato gun and be less conspicuous, since you don't have to set it up, aim it and fire. Anyone who wants to make a rocket can make one if they really want to.
Or maybe now we should just restrict banning play stations now that they have technology for guidance systems in them.
-
ping -f 255.255.255.255 # if only
I've been launching rockets since I was six. I taught rocketry at a summer camp. Had to explain the facts of the Challenger incident to kids. Launching rockets perked them up and showed that, at least for them, life can go on.
Basic model rockets (not including the larger amateur rockets) can move fast, but I can't see their immediate danger to the public, as the Estes-type rockets stick to the =1 lb. rule, with very little medal, a plastic or balsa wood nose cone, and limited motor impulse, meaning that it can't lift anything huge. Any kid can tell you that a model rocket self-destructs easily when it strikes anything but air.
Now, I can see some yahoo loading up a Big Bertha payload rocket with a few grams of anthrax and trying to spread it over a neighborhood--that's a sad possibility. Much less likely to use these things as missiles as they just can't hold a lot of explosive charge and would only be dangerous enough in a salvo.
Also, model rockets of the store-bought type have basic aerodynamic stability with fins--no electronic guidance. So, even if the motor could burn long enough (which they can't--about 2-10 sec max), you couldn't guide the thing anywhere. The motors are solid, so there's no way to rig the basic rocket as a liquid-fuel missile, either.
I'd be more worried about R/C planes, which can carry more because they generate lift and can be guided over long distances.
Vos teneo officium eram periculosus ut vos recipero is.
U.S wants to control they way mini-rockets are distributed... yet they can't control now much of the missiles and WMA they sold to various arabic countries, including Iraqi... before doing law that are so narrow, they should secure the real threats first: themselves.
ban out Bush as a weapon of mass destruction...?
What happens next is "Slashdotters" will be considered potential terrorists!! Simple reasoning: why would a website help you build personal submarines and personal rockets?? I see a new slashdot-race developing - everyone who values personal security - better start reading slashdot.
Why? Because nobody is trustworthy anymore! What if my BOFH sysadmin builds a personal submarine and threatens me (the boss)? Can you see it now? We all need peronal submarines, rockets, nuclear reactors and personal 1024-bit encryption to our grey cells. Till then we can't be secure.
If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
Aren't those considered class 1 explosives as well? I've definitely seen fireworks with more propellant potential than an Estes rocket (just not the aerodynamics.)
Or are all these wussy shipping corporations who would rather piss customers off then deal with a regulation even touching fireworks in the first place? (It's not like they're made in the US, so I assume they get shipped to the netherregions of the US somehow...)
This is stupid. Our government passes all sorts of laws restricting our rights even farther in order to stop terrorism despite the fact that a lot of the terrorist attacks against America have been over seas at our embassies and such places. But the government did such a good job of bolstering people's fears that people are willingly giving away their constitutional rights in order to be "protected from terrorist attacks".
Is this the first time model rocketry has been "jeopardized"? I seem to remember not being able to do model rocketry back in the late 60's because of the paranoia over the Viet Nam war. Can anyone corroborate this?
No argument that the changes may be excessive. But to claim the government is equating model rockets and weapons of mass destruction shows deliberate ignorance or a pure attempt to get reader reaction.
Now is the time to stand up for your rights. Become a member:
www.aclu.org
That would be almost as funny as the Mainichi Daily News.
GF.
This makes me wonder what is happening with fireworks then. I know there are a lot of fireworks out there that have quite a bit more explosive force, and potental to be used in other ways. I'd bet on fireworks being banned long before the Estes Rockets.
But, Guess if they do ban the rockets, that means a lot less rocket geeks, and more computer geeks or game programmers. I also wonder how many kids will turn to biology since bugs can be found anywhere and extracting body parts hasn't been outlawed yet.
I just hope they don't outlaw these hobbys for kids, since as you know, Saddam does like to dismember his victims.
It just says that UPS isn't going to ship them anymore. Funny the Mark Lytle makes it sound like model rockets are being outlawed. The rest just puts limits on power. I can still by fireworks in many states, I don't think model rockets are in real danger, except people who like to do crazy stuff.
throwing them a hammer, some heavy wood structure or strong punches, but I could also use the above to nail a picture in my living room.
On 9/11/2001 I, like many others, wrote here about the US government that would have fought back terrorists the wrong way (ie limiting individual freedom). Sadly we were right.
People, this thing is getting out of control. I'm lucky enough to live far outside the US, but for those who can change something with their vote I strongly suggest to think carefully next time before giving the wrong people a seat into the Whitehouse.
Of course no one thinks that model rockets are a weapon of mass destruction. But they probably do set off explosives detectors. It makes sense to classify them as explosives if they really are explosive and they set off the detectors. Think of how difficult it will be to find real dangerous explosives if other similar items like this are allowed to be shipped unregulated! Yes, I do see these little model rockets as a threat to homeland security. Not because they are a danger themselves, but because they help the really dangerous items to go undetected.
Kids are indoctrinated with sports from the time they are born. They watch it on TV, they play little league, before JV, before varsity in High School. If a kid isn't a master of a sport before he leaves High School there is no chance of him playing at the College level. And after that there is essentaily no chance of playing in the pros. Compare the above model to how we train Scientists. Senior year in high school, students decide maybe I would like to be a biologist, no maybe chemist, I will just start out undecided.
As a culture we celebrate the wrong things. Who has done more to save lives, increase the well being of everyone and increase our standard of living: Micheal Jorden or the inventor of the MRI
can you name the inventor of the MRI without google?
Free cell phone tracking
Next year's end instead of firecrackers will be only laser shows and giant screen projection on how used to be firecrackers.
At this rate, in 2005, kitchen knifes will be banned also.
what's it like, being totally disconnected from reality?
you're obviously an expert at it, so share with us the secrets of your intergalactic travels.
Television watching you is what they introduced the V-chip for.
How ya like dat?
Next thing they will try to ban are Catapults
:)
Gator/Claria is Spyware.
Like in the Nena, 198something, song.
99 Luftballoons
You and I in a little toy shop
Buy a bag of balloons with the money we've got.
Set them free at the break of dawn
'Til one by one, they were gone.
Back at base, bugs in the software
Flash the message, Something's out there.
Floating in the summer sky.
99 red balloons go by.
99 red balloons
floating in the summer sky.
Panic bells, it's red alert.
There's something here from somewhere else.
The war machine springs to life.
Opens up one eager eye.
Focusing it on the sky.
Where 99 red balloons go by.
99 ministers meet.
To worry, worry, super-scurry.
Call the troops out in a hurry.
This is what we've waited for.
This is it boys, this is war.
The president is on the line
As 99 red balloons go by.
99 Knights of the air
Ride super-high-tech jet fighters
Everyone's a superhero.
Everyone's a Captain Kirk.
With orders to identify.
To clarify and classify.
Scramble in the summer sky.
As 99 red balloons go by.
99 dreams I have had.
In every one a red balloon.
It's all over and I'm standing pretty.
In this dust that was a city.
If I could find a souvenier.
Just to prove the world was here.
And here is a red balloon
I think of you and let it go
... have already won.
No, for real. Now we live in fear, now we are taking liberties away.
Would people before 9/11 have run out of a club screaming and freaking out because someone used mace? Nope.
At a local hobby shop, they now have a sign instructing you to inform the FAA of the approximate day and time of your launches.
For years, people have been launching them on the beach north of Chicago, and some of them can pop up on radar in curious ways. Rather than scrambling a few jets to investigate, they ask that you report launches in advance.
Couldn't resist. Seriously, they can have my model rocket when they pry it from my cold, dead fingers.
I would imagine that the paranoid US government would see growing tide private-sector rocketry as a major annoyance. They can claim anything from military radar interference to plausible methods of chemical and warhead delivery and use that to stop many legitimate efforts at small-scale and highly innovative engineering. I've read from John Carmack's posts somwhere that Armadillo Aerospace does not publish their flight control software for worry of illegitimate use.
Does anybody know how understanding the post 9/11 government is to private sector rocketry and what hoops you have to go through to get clearance for high altitude flights?
. .I can take all the governments finagling into my privacy, because long ago I realized that they could already violate it with impunity without me knowing about it.. Now they just want to put it on the books so they don't have to try *as hard* to be sneaky and if they get caught, and entropy says they will, now legally they don't have to apologize.
;)..And if you by chance happened to grow up to be a fairly easy on the eyes engineer or IT fembot, please don't hesitate to email me..but I digress..) NOT only are they stripping away liberties that we as adults enjoy, they now are attempting to stifle the way we dream in the name of National Security. Its bad enough that we raise our children in spiritually dead suburbs, beating the conformity in them with gentile calmness, scorning those who do not..NOW we are saying to the young people out there 'You can't dream big..because dreaming big requires big thinking and big projects, all which may lead to an ill side effect that could hurt alot of people. We cannot allow you to take that chance."
..What did they do in the 'old days?' ..They rolled the dice and faced the terrifying unknown..
..eh, whatever..
I can deal with all of that, its to be expected..
What I cannot deal with is the symbolism that this represents for every little boy who ever looked up and wondered what was beyond that big blue dome out in space. (sorry, I grew up in the eighties before rampant PC'ness . . I'm sure there were many geeky little girls that wanted to be engineers and space cadets too
You know what? FUCK THAT! Fuck those guys! What ever happened to rolling the dice? What ever happened to taking a chance? We didn't always have this techonology that allows us the luxury of snooping on our fellow man..And what did we have to do to combat evil without it?
And that terrifying unknown made us stronger as people. It drove us to achieve and build lasting testaments to human ingenuity.
Not anymore though, that age is dying..another nail in the coffin being our childrens' dreams..
The terrorist attacks were a horrible atrocity, and a year and a half later I still can't understand how anyone could willingly commit such a awful crime against humanity.
It's bad enough that 3000 innocents were killed, but the real legacy of the attacks may well be the ongoing erosion of our civil rights by those in power, e.g. the Patriot Act and its forthcoming descendents (Patriot II, TIA, etc.).
What I've been worrying about lately is: how do democracies die? I think using some emergency to convince voters to give up their constitutionally guaranteed civil rights is a great start. It's like the Communist hysteria of the 50's, only potentially worse because of all the technology that can be brought to bear.
The intersection of technology and surveillance was something that needed to be looked at before 9/11 ever happened, but now... I just hope people come to their senses by the time the next election rolls around.
My dad, fed up with the noise of approaching planes to Minneapolis-St.Paul International Airport, told my brothers and I that if we hit a plane with a model rocket, he'd buy us a new one.
And believe me, we tried.
The damn things flew right over our house. These were the days of the low-bypass-engined 727s which are very loud.
We never hit one, though. The best effort we had was the "KILLER", a rocket with a single D engine, with fins and a nosecone glued to it. Talk about power to weight ratio. It wasn't designed to be recovered. It was like a Mosquito on steroids.
Yeah, it was irresponsible. If we knew what we were doing, we COULD have hit a plane (they're hard to lead).
We had much better success with flying kites really high in the flight path and tying the strings to tall trees. Suited airport security dudes would then come around and have to climb messy, sappy pine trees to get them down. We got at least a two hour reprieve from noise while the flights were diverted.
So, it's probably my family's fault that rockets are getting outlawed. Don't all mod me down at once!
don't ask me how i know that
Sorry if it is off-topic, but could you enligthen me on what exactly does a gasoline and soap mix when ignited?
Never heard about that one...
I'd rather be sailing...
Call me a wus, but I almost cried when I read this. My father and I used to have some great times building and launching these rockets. It's part of my childhood I'll never forget as it was so speacial to me. I was hoping to share some of the same moments with my kids... I guess I'm a terrorist now.
I am a viral sig. Please help me spread.
What I saw in the article had nothing to do with the goverment saying you can not ship these items. What I saw was that if you are going to ship these items your company must liscence their employees to handle them. This liscence will include a background check more striengent than baggage checkers. The article states that the people who dont pass the background check will have to be restricted in the companies on their access to shipping, storage, and reciving areas. In response the companies (UPS) and possible a railroad company are simply dropping that catagory of items from the list of what they will ship. So I think its the companies to blame not the GOV. I personally dont want the guy who cant pass a terrorist background check messing with my stuff I bought off of e-bay or that Bag of Flour I purchased from homegrocer. Personally I dont want anyone who cant pass these background checks touching or dealing with any of MY STUFF.
Having skipped arson 101, could someone tell me what happens when you mix gasoline and soap and light it? I'm guessing that the soap increases the viscosity and that the explosion throws globs of burning peices. Can someone elaborate? I'm curious (in a scientific, rather than evil-doer way).
-- Solaris Central - http://w
Some points:
So get your head out of your ass, and stuff your anti-American sentiment where the sun don't shine.
Fitting sentiment since the sun now daily sets on your so-called 'Empire' that we're still cleaning up after (Afghanistan, Pakistan, Middle-East).
Fucktard.
The opposite of progress is congress
Now, you ask where do we draw the line? We don't draw the line. The politicians you have elected do. This is a republic, not a democracy and therefore if you are concerned with this problem, contact your representative and find out where he or she stands. I hope you know who your representative is.
I hate liberals. If you are a liberal, do not reply.
Imagine a society where citizens are not allowed knives, guns, explosives, anything sharp or slightly dangerous. Now imagine someone manages to sneak a gun/knife through the defenses. How much more damage could he cause because the citizens are undefended?
My point is basically that if you increase defense it will keep the amount of damage a terrorist can do around the same - the weapons they have at their disposal will be less, but they will need less to do lots of damage. The way to defeat terrorism is to understand your enemy - find out why they hate you. If you have no fault then God will testify on your behalf whether you die or not. If you have a fault - well, then you know what you need to do. Don't get me wrong, murdering defenseless people is evil, but the question is whether the terrorist hate for good reason. Stop their mouths by being without blame - then when they murder ask why. They will stand condemned by their own words.
Here in india, owning a gun is a nightmare, there are tonnes of documents and it takes ages. If somebody wants to own a gun it is actually a nightmare to do it legally, and guess what terrorists roam with AK-47s.
In my opinion, your adminstration has gone mad.My Aurora : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o91ZsGwJYyg
FB : https://www.facebook.com/TanveersPhotography
Obviously model rocketry needs engines so that the hobbyist can test their designs, or check if they glued together the prefab cutouts properly. Because there is demand, this restriction opens up some business opportunities. Certain less popular shippers, like Airborne, could hire employees with proper security clearance and advertise the fact. A small surcharge could be added to help defray the added employee cost. Local rocketry enthusiast could work part time building model rocket engines for their friends. There are companies that supply kit that allow you to construct model rocket engines. These could be shipped without the propellent, which could be then be obtained locally. This would allow the individual to build the engines.
Of course, some of the above solutions my be worse than the problem, resulting in kids blowing off fingers and damaging eyes, but it is all in the name of fear based legislation!
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
Better pick up your copy of Backyard Ballistics before it gets banned and taken off the market. I wouldn't buy it off Amazon though, or you'll get tagged with that new "potential terrorist" flag. Check out what the people who bought the book also bought. Somewhere out there is a guy who's building a potato-launching warrior robot that can make oragami paper airplanes.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
You can (or could) buy hybrid rocket engines using rubber or plastic as the fuel and nitrous oxide as the oxidizer. These aren't explosive by themselves, so they should evade these limits.
Damn, Saddam Hussein gets to have MISSLES that can go up to 150 km. downrange, but I can't play with my little rocket toys from Estes?
I just hate to think of all the little kids not growing up being able to say "Dad, light that candle!:
A nice broad, sweeping, law always seems to be a great idea for people involved in legislative groupthink and there is real irony in the this example.
Considering the many, well-understood, and readily-available ways of the creating the means for blowing up--hint: *never* apply heat or spark to vaporized gasoline--a legal dragnet that impedes access to things as innocuous as model rocket moters is pure irony.
You've got to laugh imagining some bearded guy shouting at another, 'put away that fertilizer and help me scrape out nine-thousand number threes!'
We have proof positive that our government is run by people who were expected to make laws for Disneyland.
To mail me, remove the 'mailno' from my email addy.
"Yeah. It smells, too..."
I have a nephew who's 7 and I've been waiting for him to get a year or two older so we could start working on model rockets together. I spent a couple years as a kid playing with them, and while I didn't get into as much as some people (e.g., I'm no longer a model rocket builder), I remember having quite a lot of fun as a kid. It'd be a real shame not to be able to do this.
Rush the stores. Stock up now before it is to late!
The open fields of the USA will feel my wrath as I assult them with my cardboard tubes. (My @#$%@$% parachutes always get stuck).
Good thing I have plenty of ducttape and plastic sheeting for emergeny repairs.
When they came for me there was no one left to speak.
SD
âoeWho knew something as harmless as willful ignorance could end up having real consequences?â
20 years ago, I was the only kid I knew who was into rockets. And two of the above three things didn't exist yet. You think it's gotten any more popular since then?
Things are more like they are now than they ever were before.
I can't believe I'm the only one that didn't blow up his sister's My Little Ponies with powdered Estes D engines when they were a kid....
Oh, come on, people!!!
The conclusions drawn were reactionary. I don't see any reason why there would be any problem with getting bondable & insurable people to transport these "mostly harmless" Estes engines. What to gunsmiths and black-powder enthusiasts do? So, UPS *might not* ship them? No where does it say that UPS will STOP shipping.
This is nothing but pure "churn"
ScottKin
I don't give a rat's behind about "karma" here or anywhere else. Don't like what I have to say here? Deal with it!
I'm all for modle rocketry, but they CAN be put to negative use.. I us-, er, someone I know used to take foil and tape it very tightly around their rocket, then take it out to a nearby airport that was also used for military aircraft of a cargo sort. Appearantly, the foil showed up on radar... (ever seen chaff, my friends?)
Also, the person in question managed to put a two-stager through the wing of an ultralight. (He was flying at night! Well, ok, twilight, but he didn't have any lights on! He was merely enforcing the law!!
This being said, how many modle rocketeers use their rockets for anything more than disturbing the local livestock and having one more excuse to watch flame?
-Trev
Wish I had mod points.
This is exactly how I feel as well. Science, which often takes more work than sports, should be celebrated.
Teachers at all levels need to be paid better as well. The "Well, I'm only an average programmer, so I'll teach instead" mentality/expectation needs to be reversed.
Sticks and Stones may break my bones, but copyright will always protect me.
Who has done more to save lives, increase the well being of everyone and increase our standard of living: Micheal Jorden or the inventor of the MRI
can you name the inventor of the MRI without google?
As a kid, i didn't have access to hobby shops, but I did have a desire to make things fly. I also had a town pharmacy and grocery store, and between the two of them, they sold enough materials to make your own gunpowder (won't give the details, if you want to blow your hand off you're going to have to go it alone). Had some kraft paper, and fashioned a plastic mould to shape the engine. viola! home brewed rockets (more often than not, home brewed explosives..sometimes we combined the two 8-) )
'course, that doesn't address the threat. of course it's a potential threat. but you can just as easily rig a dispersion device to the exhaust of your automobile or the smokestake of an 18 wheeler, tie something to a pigeon, infest a hoarde of fleas and let 'em loose, etc.
Wow, its a good thing lawn darts were outlawed years ago. There's no telling how much havoc those things could cause in the hands of a terrorist.
slashdot, news for crazed liberal socialist zealots
If a /.er were to read the rest of the webpage, including a few of the links, they would have eventually seen this page:
http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html
Sure, on the surface it is a guide for the Tennessee constituency to write to their senators. However, the section titled "Points to include in your letter and Phone call," lists 11 items of contention that are the crux of the matter, and go farther than just saying, "UPS will stop shipping solid rocket motors."
What the eleven points say in a nutshell:
1.] Homeland Security Act places undue restrictions on model rocketry
2.] The ATF has listed the main chemical ingredient in most model solid rocket motors on its explosives list.
3.] Even though solid rocket motors are flammable and thrustworthy, they are not explosives.
4.] A hobbyist would have to obtain an ATF permit to buy the motors, and would not allow transport of homemade motors, even from home to field. This allows the ATF inspection access to those permits, which are ususally kept at home.
5.] All this is bad, Mmmkay?
I can envision ATF midnight raids on rocket geeks' houses already....
These are essentially fireworks that just don't have an explosion of magnesium or phosphorus or other colored under heat element.
While I hate for the government to ban or limit anything that we do, I have never thought these were safe and should be reserved for liscensed hobby clubs and liscensed demonstrations. Anyone wishing to do this for fun or hobby can join the club.
I say all this from TWO first hand accidents. My neighbor boy; last summer; his 300ft tilted and hit a house. No damage, but when it shot the parachute it left a dent in the vinyl siding of the home it hit. I have also seen a bottle rocket set an entire BLOCK on fire.
Yell & scream & rant & rave... it's no use... you need a shaaaave ~ Bugs Bunny
Nah... the real worry is if the terrorist kiddies get ahold of Estes model rocket technology. They might use it to create weapons of mouse destruction!
In Soviet Rush, today's Tom Sawyer gets high on you.
This is the next step in the Isreal-Palestine struggle:
a m. facts/
http://asia.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/02/16/qass
www.qassam.home-page.org/
I have been trying for years to get Estes model rocket engines in Nova Scotia, Canada where I live. But due to the Canadian classification of them as munitions or fireworks I can't with out special liscence. If I am wrong about this an someone knows where I can get them with out a huge hassel that would be great. I could finally dig my models back out of storage. Lord Myron longlejf69@hotmail.com (MS I know I know)
Ban the rockets now! Let them live on in our precious memories and preserve our precious bodily fluids from alien threats! Semper fi fo fum!
And to drive my point home, I shall now barrage you with exclamation points! Ha!!!!!!!!!!!!!
--- Ban humanity.
So, where are the lawyers whom just a couple days were arguing that law IS accessible to the public?
Read this paragraph taken from the homeland security act:
>>Section 845. Exceptions; relief from
disabilities
>>(a) Except in the case of subsections (l), (m), (n), or (o) of section 842 and
>>subsections (d), (e), (f), (g), (h), and (i) of section 844 of this title,
>>this chapter shall not apply to:
That's easy to understand, clear, legislation of which you were commenting is accessible to the public, right?
You do not understand the Islamic Jihad (This is not standard Islam). The people live under very tight totalitarian control. A fundamental of Islam is, in order to go to Paradise you must have done more good than bad during your life. Any immoral thought will be held against you. Extreme Islamic Nations create laws to help keep its people pure. One group of laws are concerned with what women wear. When people who are brought up under such tight control leave these countries to ones that are far more liberal, they often immediately fall victim to the temptations. Feeling as if Hell is certain, there is only one Islamic Doctrine that could help. This is the Jihad. They are taught to believe that God will forgive them if they were to die in a War against infidels. Atta was seen on many occasions going to strip clubs and getting lap dances on the days prior to 911. It has been reported that he had mentioned that he had nothing to worry about because he would be forgiven. This is also how you recruit suicide bombers.
I think it was around 1993 and the Waco Religious Crushing that the BATF clamped down hard on the regulations. Specifically transport and storage of the High Power engines. These use a HTPB formulation with AP and a plasticizer, not Black Powder. Supposedly the BATF or Customs intercepted a shipment to the IRA.
These are the ones that could lob 100lbs about 1/4 to 1/2 mile.
Anyway, after that, you couldn't ship or transport the things without a BATF license, and if you had any they had to be stored properly per BATF regs, and you had to have a BATF explosives permit.
This should be confirmable via Tripoli or other High Power rocketry groups around the country.
JoeR
Perhaps by getting involved, we can stop this sillyness...
/. posters boast about how they're "protesting against the system" by not voting.
Wrong forum. During the next campaign, look at how many
Red baloons.
The government's moral compass is controlled by GPS.
In times of crises, they alter it to suit their needs.
KY Jelly in large amounts may creat not only a fire danger, but a community danger as well.
Surely, that rocket I accidently launched horizontally into a parking lot could never be used as a weapon!
This is about the handling and shipment of hazmat (hazerdous materials). Ammonium perchlorate composite propellant can be quite destructive and we have decided that in order to transport it you should have a permit. Ghastly isn't it?
Maybe this will be enough to get me tossed in jail for conspiracy, but in about 1986, I remember friends and I contemplating what it would take to convert the Estes Alpha III (the one with plastic nosecone and fins) into something with an explosive payload. After all, you COULD take the stock Estes launcher and turn it horizontial.
.we DID build that bottle rocket launcher on that car ... .
... . .
We had dreams of a spectacular explosion as we launched it horizontially into some brick wall.
Of course - thank God, we never did it. Good things that the ideas of a 12 year old don't always match up with the abilities of ourselves later in life. But then again . .
But thats another story
anything i tell you will cloud your opinion.
Guns are still leagal in the US and they want to ban model rockets? Surely this has to be one of the most stupid ideas of all time.
What the fuck: I can purchase 1,000 rounds of 30-06 ammunition, along with a few pounds of power for reloading, but they think that a few Estes model rocket engines are dangerous.
[sarcasm]
Outlawing boxcutters I could understand, but this?
[\sarcasm]
Next to go will be the betty crocker mini-ovens, under the heading of aiding terrorist in cooking up explosives.
Sheesh.
They can take my mini-oven when they pry it from my cold dead hands.
From what I read in the article about the increased requirements for background checks and permits for shipping these low-class propellent explosives, I would have say that it looks like it will impact america's favorite patriotic display as well: fireworks.
Bush, the killer of the 4th of July...
-Chris
-- This sig is only a test. If this were a real sig it would say something witty. --
Although it's sad that we might not be allowed to launch a model rocket again, the real crime here is that our young/unborn children may never get the chance to do it. I have fond childhood memories of rocketry with my dad; I always hoped I could share the same thing with my child some day.
[figz@figz figz]$ kill -9 `ps -ef | awk '$1=="figz" { print $2 }'`
Ever thought of it as an Anthrax delivery system.
Oopps I guess I should not have said that.
I am not even going to mention RC cars.... Rats did it again.
I am not even going to think about kites. Doh
And remember that chemistry kit you had as a kid... Bio-Warfare Centre dude...
Um what was your name again, better let me get it for homeland security...
"It is not a question if you are paranoid, the question is are you paranoid enough" Strange Days
D.A.K.D.A.E.---- Deny all Knowledge, Destroy All Evidence
It's a kind of pirate, not an entrepreneur. However, if you're postualting that the U.S. govt. will be sanctioning independent rocketry enthusiasts to waylay foreign satellites, I stand corrected.
Depends on how much E they did first.
.. with a bad heart .. .. in the same place smacks of chemical influence.
Unless you can think of another reason four children died of strokes at a locked back door.
Fear might do that to one
but four at once
I'm thinking that something illegal might have been going on in that club.
Only takes one person to say 'cops!' in a room full of junkies to create a riot.
--Ne auderis delere orbem rigidum meum, non erravi pernicose!
DefCon 5 is the lowest state of alert.
Best Slashdot Co
I mean really, come on. Terrorists have already proved themselves capable of hijacking commercial planes and levelling entire buildings. If you've got the smarts and resources to pull that off, what the hell do you need a model rocket for?
kind of along the lines of 'make it illegal to buy/carry guns'
.. err .. breaking the law.
Its not like criminals (the definition of which is 'one who breaks the law') are going to be concerned about
--Ne auderis delere orbem rigidum meum, non erravi pernicose!
I've done simular things in my past, but to do what you did you had to go beyound what a simple model rocket engine can do. Adding black power to the nose of a rocket isn't in NAR regs last time I checked.
When I was a teen we got into a war with the local model airplane group. I shot down one plane(it was cool but really it was a damn lucky shot) with my home made missle. Wasn't able to repeat the act as they were able to easily dodge the missles. We were just wasting black power.
My friends and I ended up designing a semi-wire gide missle using fishing line and a hand held launcher. It wasn't easy to guide(sic) the rocket. You had to fire across the path of the plane and if you ran like hell while trying to drag the wire in the path of the plane you could take it out, if you were lucky and fast enough. It wasn't explosive it used the wire to rip the plane in half. Odd enough the guys flying the planes never called the law on us. I think they just took it as a challenge. They only lost 3 more planes, all repaired, while we must of shot off nearly 30 attempts over that summer and lost or destroyed most of the rockets. As "wars" go I'd say we lost.
Slashdot, home of supporters of free software, free music, and free speech.Except for Moderators that disagree with you.
I went to a meet of the Large and Dangerous Rocket Society a few years ago. Holy smokes. They had one rocket that was about 15 feet tall and weighed 80 pounds. When it was launched it freakin' disappeared. I don't mean just for a few moments, I mean even with their radio tracking, they had no idea where it went. Quite awesome. They had to call the FAA before launching the biggies, to make sure there were no nearby flying aircraft, since they fully expected some of those things to go over 30K feet!
I guess civilian missles are a thing of the past.
Expect more kids to lose hands as the rising cost of proven motors drives them to switch to basement-brewed bombs.
Does this mean I'm gonna get busted for stockpiling the little card board tubes from paper towel and toilet paper rolls?
I just went out and bought some estes engines, I guess I should go buy some more quick.
"You never know when some crazed rodent with cold feet might be running loose in your pants."
-Calvin
For instance, I could say that since we allow the government to regulate the operation of motor vehicles, it is only a matter of time before the government regulates all aspects of life.
It is because roads are funded with public money and the public uses those roads that the government has any right of regulation for vehicles. We allow the government to regulate the operation of motor vehicles only on public roads or public property in the US. You can drive at any age, drive vehicles of any type or drive vehicles of any condition on your own property. You can have a vehicle shipped by common carrier to any location in the US. As long as you do not operate the vehicle on pubic roads or property you do not have to register, insure or jump through any other regulatory hoops for that vehicle.
Now, you ask where do we draw the line? We don't draw the line. The politicians you have elected do. This is a republic, not a democracy and therefore if you are concerned with this problem, contact your representative and find out where he or she stands. I hope you know who your representative is.
Wrong, We draw the lines. Don't contact your government representative to "find out where he or she stands". Contact them to let them know where you as a constituent stand. If your government representative does not represent you and your interests, align with like-minded people and work for getting your reprehensive replaced. Quit allowing the horse to drive the cart. The people selecting representatives, not people abdicating their responsibilities and passively taking on the values of the government, run a republic.
another reason why it's good not to be an american...
Let the oil flow, mix it with a few supertankers of soap, ignite.... No more Saddam!
Great idea!
Reinout
Reinout van Rees
Rocket engines? gee... why don't they ban gasoline
or Ammonia, Mothballs and... I won't mention the third ingredient.
I was told by tiaa-cref that all contributions to my retirement account had to be made by personal check - no more cash, money orders or bank checks - thanks to the Patriot Act it said - guess they don't want me laundering money through my teachers' retirement fund. Guilty until proven innocent seems to be the direction we're heading.
Hey! What if we all promise to shield the model rocket parts securely in layers of AOL junk mail?
"Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
Long live Ninnle Linux!
Oh great! Now how are we going to give poor unsuspecting snakes (albeit the smaller variety) the ride of their lives, or at least until the engine burns out? I swear that snake had a look of sheer terror on it's face when it came back to earth, so maybe there is some truth to this story...
What exactly do you mean by "Don't touch this button?"
One of the reasons we got to the Moon was a bunch of model rocket enthusiasts! If we outlaw or strongly regulate rocketry, we are depriving our species of potential to get off the planet.
Yes rockets can carry "weapons of mass destruction", but so can beakers and universities. <sarcasm>Will we be banning them too?</sarcasm>
I feel so much safer knowing that terrorists will no longer be able to launch egg payloads several hundred feet into the air. This will surely bring about a swift end to their evil, terroristy machinations.
Absolutely none of the shit we've done since 9/11/01 has made me feel any safer, but some of it has made me look sillier. I had to take my fucking shoes off twice this weekend on my trip to Vegas. My only hope is that a terrorist doesn't try and smuggle explosives in his grundle or asshole. Drop your drawers for safety, folks!
Oh well. Bush has secured his role in history as a one-term president, albeit a dangerous one. All this extra stupid bullshit is punishment once he figured that out, I think.
Take me back to the days of presidential blowjobs; this terrorist dog-and-pony show and Iraq dickwaving is getting tiresome. I sorta miss all the rights I used to have, too. I think I'll go shoot some dangerous model rockets at airplanes and skyscrapers now.
- A.P.
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
Goddard Space Flight Center, outside D.C., had the longest running series of model rocket launches in the country. The twice-a-month launches were well run and closely supervised, but Goddard suspended the program after 9/11. It's a shame; one of my son's earliest memories is a "girl with a green rocket" he saw at a launch I took him to when he was a toddler, and he was excited about flying his own rocket. Now we have to drive 100 miles farther to get to an organized launch.
not that I would want to defend the law, because I know too little of it, but nobody (at least not the general public) ever imagined "them" to use an airliner as a huge bomb.
It isn't very difficult to imagine that somoene could misuse one of those toy rockets.
But of course, where does it end...
Really, I learned a lot more in undergraduate genetics, microbiology, botany and orgainic chemistry courses on how to be a terrorist than I did by launching model rockets.
Got Botulism? It might take a while to isolate and identify the proper strain, but terrorists don't have the marketing department breathing down their necks to meet a shipping date. They're patient if they have to be. Once identified, it's just a matter of culturing and refining the toxin.
Got Ricin? Yes, the lovely castor bean plant (ricinus communis) produces a rather nice toxin. Readily available through many plant stores. A bit of applied organic chemistry lab work, and you too can get the desired organic compound.
Got GB Nerve gas? Malathion (an readily available and highly used insecticide) and the first component of the binary nerve gas GB are very similar. Any organic chemist worth his money would be able to do some work to make it exactly similar. The other component is isopropol alcohol. You can find that in any drugstore.
Got FAE? Why bother with ANFO (ammonium-nitrate fuel-oil, the fertilizer bomb that has been used in many, many places) truck bombs? A little bit of applied mechanical engineering and you to can have explosives on par with low-yield nuclear weapons. Sure, ethylene oxide and propylene oxide may be a bit hard to source, but you can use others to get a similar result.
Or, as was demonstrated by one nutcase in South Korea, all it takes is a determined individual with gasoline to kill many people on a subway.
Model rockets? Give me a break. Next on the list: slingshots.
Get your causality straight!
0 2n.html
US Seeks To Block Spread Of Unpiloted Aircraft Technologies
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/uav-
Next thing I know my model plane will be considered a spyplane if I mount a video camera on it. Actually, I shouldn't give them ideas.
You are not giving them ideas! They are far ahead of you. Think about it. R/C airplanes and model rockets?... Predator drones and maverick missiles?
When I was a bored teenager (instead of posting to a non-existant /.) I took one of my brother's broken electronic squirt-guns - you know, the things that took batteries, you held down the trigger, and a little electronic motor powered a pump that would continuously shoot water for you.
Well, I used some gold old American duct-tape, and attached a metal tube from a vacuum cleaner to the side. Next, I attached a backing to the tube, with a little hole in the side. I strung the wires out from the battery pack into the hole in the tube to attach to an estes ignitor. Inside the vacuum cleaner tube was a model rocket with no fins.
Voila, instant rocket launcher. Unfortunately, I found that combining the wide and short barrel with the lack of fins, gave it some pretty poor accuracy.
I tinkered with a bit, perfecting the setup until one time that the rocket became lodged in the barrel. I chucked that thing and ran, only to see the grassy area where I had previously been standing get fairly scorched.
I wasn't a terrorist, just a kid with a curiousity, and an imagination inspired by the movies.
- passion
How the Homeland Security Act Affects You!
----snip----
Question 22: Will model rocket engines like those sold by Estes require ATF permits to buy?
Answer: No. The ATF plans to exempt all solid rocket motors with less than 62.5 grams of propellant.
----snip----
The PROBLEM is that UPS, for now, is not shipping the engines, because apparently it's too much of a grey area for them; they'd rather just ban them than read the law and _realize_ that these engines don't apply. Fine. There aren't other shipping companies in the US? UPS isn't even the major international shipper, methinks. That honor would be either FedEx or DHL. Regardless, these engines can still be had.
So OK, as a result of the new law, after May 31, 2004, you can't teach Timmy how to build his own APCP (Ammonium Perchlorate Composite Propellant) rocket motor without having an ATF permit (or more specifically, you COULD teach him how to build one, but you'd need the permit to launch it anywhere but in your backyard.) This does suck, I agree. But I can still go out to a farm field and cook off a paper tube rocket with a B6-4 engine and show anyone who cares to watch how everything works, just like I've been doing on occasion since I was seven.
Walk into your local hobby shop (the people bitching about all this DO actually buy these engines, right?) and tell him that you'll support him with your business, and if he needs to bump the prices of engines up a bit to cover having them shipped to him by FedEx or whatever until all this blows over, you'll support him. If his stock levels are high, buy a few there. If they're not, order a few and prepay. They're not that expensive, guys, and last time I checked they last for years.
Yes, the law needs to be changed so any sort of the rocket engines that _were_ OK to build/possess _remain_ OK to build/possess. This means that many of you, instead of being apathetic toward the political process, spend time writing, calling, or E-mailing your congressman or senator and make a good case for why these engines should be exempt. And don't do the "rockets are safe because I could do even more damage with an airplane!" because that'll just get RC airplanes banned. Keep it in the family, as it were. Use anecdotes without hyperbole, about how there are x number of launches per year and how there are next to no accidents, maimings, or death as a result. (Don't have "x" right now, but I'm going to try to look it up.) Maybe be even more nebulous, about how playing with model rockets when you were a kid inspired you to go to work for an aerospace company. I don't care, just use something that they'll read and possibly remember, rather than a negative attack that'll just get round-filed.
Back to lurking...
but without sophisticated guidance systems and telemetry any weapons utilizing hobby rocketry parts are just an unguided high speed bottle rocket.
With the explosion of the AeroTech plant in Nevada, rocket motors are harder to get anyway. Several other manufacturers have developed their own motor systems and reloads in their place.
I personally got out of High Power when the shipping and hazmat fees started to cost as much or more than the motor. Now that the guvment is more involved I do pyrotechnics instead. But that won't last much longer either.
A couple of pyrotechnics sites in case you're interested.
Pyrotechnic Artists of Texas
Pyrofx A pyro site hosted by me
Ken
Between the Patriot Act, Digital Millenium Copyright Act and the recent MicroSoft purchase of the justice system; is there room for innovation in the US?
Will we see innovation move offshore (along with the jobs) to places like Europe and Asia.
The new restrictions will insure that those currently on top, stay on top; but they may also insure that all of us go down.
They use nitro fuel, which is already under some restrictions, with more to follow..
I guess hobby's are dangerous..
Information is dangerous, independent thought must be abolished too.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Folks - this seems to me a temporary move until the powers that be at UPS find a way to do the following:
a) comply with the law
b) cover the costs of complying with that law
c) make a profit on the ironic side effects of that law
So just think - soon, the UPS will be offering a special "hazmat" transport service that transports items like these. The downside - it'll cost more...and thus the items transported will cost more. The question is, are there enough people doing model rocketry (and other similarly affected cargo) to make a profit?
Lawmakers think they have good intentions at heart - and while I think the laws they are recently proposing/passing are extreme reactions to an extreme event, some of them do make sense to respond to the demands of increased security. It's a tough balance - and sometimes, rather than making the laws more specific, it's better for ingenious Americans to find a way to make a profit...and provide a valuable service - while allowing the Government to do their job - protect us.
That being said - I oppose many parts of the Patriot and Homeland Security Acts - simply because there's no way to bypass an individual's privacy and liberties...something both of these acts threaten to do....
What good is an unguided rocket anyways? That is so 1981 Hezbollah.
Everyone knows all the terrorists these days are using C4 strapped to RF model airplanes. Try shooting that down with a Patriot missile.
Hammer of Truth
I can mod any semi-auto gun to spray full auto into a crowd and get a hell of a lot more casualties out of it (not that you need full-auto to kill), yet John Asscroft isn't banning guns anytime soon.
The article that was banned from "Extremem Rocketry" magazine was not about cardboard tube rockets. Extreme rocketry is about metal rockets with very powerful solid fuel engines (or sometimes hydrogen peroxide based chemical engines). They go so high as to make an Estes rocket look like a paper airplane.
This is not to say that it still isn't a stupid, paranoid thing to try to block an article from being published. But the original Slashdot article and the resulting comments should at least comment on what is actually happening.
Base your comments on what the article actually says, not what slashdot told you it said.
Umm gotta love the States, can't build a model rocket, but I can own a powerful rifle/shotgun!
Come to the UK, we got a right to do sod-all!
"I kill you! You no good 56'ing!"
I would consider a model airplane many times more dangerous than a estes rocket. A plane could easily be constructed of balsa tha would fly many many miles to a intended target and spray a chemical agent. With just a little more work and a few cheap computer parts and a gps receiver it could be made to do it without a manned operator.
This stuff is getting way out of control.
Got Code?
Model Airplanes.
Model Rockets.
Although, nothing could beat the etheral beauty of a Laundry Bag Balloon at night.
The things that made our childhood fun. All banned, restricted, outlawed, legislated.
"This is a free country isn't it??!!"
No.
If you don't want to repeat the past, stop living in it.
This is the type of comment that, given appropriate airtime, could really help George Bush, John Ashcroft, Don Rumsfeld, and Tom Ridge plan a beautiful future for this country. In fact, I bet they have a team out looking for examples of ridiculous statements like this one made against counterterrorism efforts, as material to use in debates when rational people challenge the equally polarized and ridiculous statements the Administration makes in support of its counterterrorism agenda.
The people affected by the 9/11 attack were much more diverse than those of us who worked in lower Manhattan and had our lives turned upside down for a few months afterward. If one counts those people who were affected by the U.S. equity markets being shut down for four days, airline travel interruptions that lasted for weeks, and telecommunications in and out of the northeast being disrupted for months, the circle is much, much larger. And this was one incident, of which there will certainly be more. Contrary to what misterhaan thinks, if you are an American citizen, terrorism will most likely affect you, eventually if it hasn't already.
All that being said, I don't believe stocking up on duct tape, developing comprehensive data surveillance systems, or banning model rockets are appropriate responses to the problem. But I support better airline and customs security, better immigration systems, and the Patriot Act, among other things, as necessary steps to avoid the type of lifestyle currently enjoyed in places like Israel and Afghanistan.
Backyard Ballistics
The regulations as I understand them will only affect BIG ASS engines, not Estes Size-E. But lets look at an estes size E for a second. Building a three stage E class rocket could be done in a few hours for less than 50$ each, and could deliver a payload of a couple of ounces to a ground location a few(?) miles away without anybody seeing what happened. A couple ounces of a hardcore chemical weapon could have a very serious physical and psychological effect. Multiply this by 1000 and you have a serious problem. they could be set off remotely, so even if they did lose 20% they would still be effective, and nobody would go near the launch site to collect evidence.
People who think they know everything really piss off those of us that actually do.
UPS and probably soon FedEx as well as various big shipping companies (train and semi-tractor trailers mainly) have been getting their necks rung over all of the Homeland Security stuff. HazMat is a pain in the ass. Always has been. Now it is even worse! There are various levels, 1,2,3 etc. Model rocket engines fall into Class 1. Most companies that don't specialize in HazMat just don't want to deal with it anymore. Surprise inspections, increasing costs, bonded drivers, background checks for everything. If you look at it as a matter of money in vs. moeny out, it is a waste of time for a common carrier to do this stuff.
And this is not taking into account of all the other Federal regulations involved (OSHA etc).
That fire was caused by an improperly stored oxygen generator, which was also incorrectly marked as inactive. ie: The person shipping it (an internal parts transfer for the airline) screwed up.
There are upwards of fifty of these devices in every commercial airliner flying in the world at this moment (some 2-3000 aircraft over the U.S. alone), with none of THEM going off accidentally.
If someone can properly ship me a steak in dry ice, there should be no problem getting a properly packaged C5 engine to me.
No more road flares either, I take it?
What next, punkin chunkers?
Where I post game reviews, my PSP backgrounds, podca
I used to fly model rockets years ago, and really enjoyed it.
About 4 years ago, though, I got into remote control (RC) airplanes. That hobby kicks ass. It's not all that expensive, as far as hobbies go. You can get into it for less than $500, then your additional costs are minor if you don't wreck your plane much.
It's absolutely amazing what a good RC pilot can do with his airplane. The thrust to weight ratio of these planes is well over 1, so it's possible to hover the airplanes in midair.
Having flown both standard sized and model aircraft, I can tell you that the skills you need to develop for both are roughly the same. Flying model airplanes is a shitload cheaper and less likely to get you killed, though.
My biggest regret is that I didn't get into the hobby sooner. As with most things, the younger you are when you start, the better you'll be.
If you're interested, go by any good airplane hobby shop, and there will be some airplane geek there who can tell you how to get started. Better yet, just go to the hobby shop to look around, then ask them where the local model airplane fields are. An airfield will be run by a club that has people who can give you good advice on how to get started and train you how to fly. Plus, you'll get a really good chance to see what you're getting into, if there are some decent pilots showing off.
One word of advice regarding flying: It's a crapload harder than it looks. Everyone thinks that they'll be flying their first time out. In reality, you'll likely not be flying by yourself for your first 5 outings. Take things slowly, and you won't have to do a lot of plane rebuilding.
Why are you letting these clowns ruin our country?
Hi.
Um... This is... well
Ah. To get straight to the point, this is the most boring post ever.
Really. There is nothing boringer (that's not really a word... look it up on Google [google.com] if you don't believe me).
Just to clarify...
the article is not boring...
the parent post to this post is not boring...
it is solely this post that you are actually (why are you?) reading right now.
I'm sorry
I didn't want to be boring, but I can't help it
I read boring books and watch boring movies, and eat boring food.
I am boring
not as in "I am a boring person", but "I am boring" or "Boring is me"... I=boring=me.
Sorry, I just had to clarify.
Anyhow, please don't be so boring either...
Mod Parent UP...
Hi.
Um... This is... well
Ah. To get straight to the point, this is the most boring post ever.
Really. There is nothing boringer (that's not really a word... look it up on Google [google.com] if you don't believe me).
Just to clarify...
the article is not boring...
the parent post to this post is not boring...
it is solely this post that you are actually (why are you?) reading right now.
I'm sorry
I didn't want to be boring, but I can't help it
I read boring books and watch boring movies, and eat boring food.
I am boring
not as in "I am a boring person", but "I am boring" or "Boring is me"... I=boring=me.
Sorry, I just had to clarify.
Anyhow, please don't be so boring either...
Science, which often takes more work than sports, should be celebrated.
Oh look, another "We're smarter than the jocks" comment. Whatever.
If you do the sciences professionally, that's work. If you play sports professionally (or, gasp, to get a college degree), you're working damn hard, and up against equally dedicated competitors.
Just because someone shoved you in a locker in high school dosen't make you better than someone who actually likes to compete and stay in shape.
Mod Grandparent UP...
Hi.
Um... This is... well
Ah. To get straight to the point, this is the most boring post ever.
Really. There is nothing boringer (that's not really a word... look it up on Google [google.com] if you don't believe me).
Just to clarify...
the article is not boring...
the parent post to this post is not boring...
it is solely this post that you are actually (why are you?) reading right now.
I'm sorry
I didn't want to be boring, but I can't help it
I read boring books and watch boring movies, and eat boring food.
I am boring
not as in "I am a boring person", but "I am boring" or "Boring is me"... I=boring=me.
Sorry, I just had to clarify.
Anyhow, please don't be so boring either...
I guess you could build a harmless rocket that shoots up into the air a few hundred feet, or better yet... you could build your own cruise missle ... which do you think is the bigger threat?
Skiers and Riders -- http://www.snowjournal.com
This is exactly why people need to fight ALL kinds of prohibition - from model rockets, to guns, to hemp.
As our forefather, Thomas Paine so aptly said:
"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even
his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he
establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."
You appease "W" the Warmongerer.
The greatest griefs are those we cause ourselves. - Sophocles
Without easy legal rocket motors, what will happen?
Illegal motors.
If the authorities think terrorists are planning to use model rockets to deliver weapons (anthrax? Ammonia+Chlorox binary chemical weapons?) then as it stands, they can track them. I'm sure Estes wouldn't mind letting them peruse their records so they could search for suspicious purchases by suspicious people.
Now, under a regime where model rocket motors are illegal, the bad guys will just roll their own. So will jr. high students, and they won't be anywhere near as safe as Estes. The number of kids who get their fingers blown off will far exceed the number of terrorists who get their fingers blown off.
But wait, it gets worse. It will get harder to track suspicious purchases because there won't be any major sources of the critical components--just many and various sources of precursor chemicals and supplies.
Bottom line? Clamping down on the hobby is objectively pro-terrorist, just as appeasing dictators is objectively pro-fascist. Or, to put it in terms that they can understand: They are unpatriotic and, won't somebody please think of the children?.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
A determined terrorist doesn't need a kit to build a boxcutter.
A determined terrorist doesn't need a kit to build a cardboard box full of gasoline.
A determined terrorist doesn't need a kit to build a...
SB
When I was young, my preferred place to set off model rockets was in a field across the street from the Isreali embassy in DC. In retrospect, probably not such a good idea, and definately not such a good idea now...
spreer
A couple of weeks ago I took my grandson to a Hobby Shop to get a model kit the we could work on together. What stunned me was the size and power of the E, F and G engines, especially the G engines. They are not black power with Aluminum power mixed in. They have enough impluse to launch a small C4 or RDX charge a significant distance.
But, I don't believe they should be outlawed... only registered so authorities can know who the hobbiests are and who are not.
Running with Linux for over 20 years!
It's a strange world we live in...
"Empathise with stupidity, and you're halfway to thinking like an idiot." - Iain M. Banks
Don't tell them about submarines!. Imagine the explosive combinations!
I would bet that most engineers & scientists at NASA greatly enjoyed building model rockets, and this was a factor in so many people being attracted to the field.
That, and being able to say, "Yes, I am a rocket scientist."
Well, if they're placing restrictions on shipping these items because of potential dangerous uses, then this should be shortly followed on restrictions for shipping matches (match-head pipe bombs), right?
:)
Oh yeah, and all those campfire starter magnesium blocks - they're good at starting fires which can't be put out. If you grind them up, you get some great flash powder.
How 'bout the pyrotechnic powder in road flares? If you get rid of the sawdust they dilute the stuff inside with, it might burn quite fast - and would have a really brilliant red glare
If rocket-propelled explosive warheads are outlawed, only outlaws will have rocket-propelled explosive warheads.
taken! (by Davidleeroth) Thanks Bingo Foo!
Give me a break. Why not show a picture of a Chevy Cavalier? The odds are far greater that the car will run your ass over in the parking lot, than that any terrorist-related act will impact you.
Does anyone actually take Tom Ridge seriously? Tape up your windows and keep a first aid kit at hand? That reminds me of the "nuclear attack" drill in the Army: Lie down in the the lowest spot you can find and cover your eyes.
Canada has more guns per person than the United States, but they have less than 50 gun-related deaths per year. Why is that? It's because the Canadians don't live in fear. Yoda had it right, fear *does* lead to hate, and to violence as well.
The European countries, primarily Britain, Germany, and Italy, have faced their share of terrorism over the years. None of those countries became police states.
We're all blissfully driving our SUVs around, fat, dumb and happy, and wondering why so many people think of us as spoiled, scared, pathetic, naiive idiots. In a similar fashion, our children will grow up and wonder why everyone else around the world laughs at us when we call ourselves the "land of the free and the home of the brave."
Before you jump to conclusions, I was an infantry officer in the US Army, I'm not a liberal, and I don't eat granola for breakfast. I'm just sick of watching this country slide further into slack-jawed idiocy.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
Mod Great-grandparent UP...
Hi.
Um... This is... well
Ah. To get straight to the point, this is the most boring post ever.
Really. There is nothing boringer (that's not really a word... look it up on Google [google.com] [google.com] if you don't believe me).
Just to clarify...
the article is not boring...
the parent post to this post is not boring...
it is solely this post that you are actually (why are you?) reading right now.
I'm sorry
I didn't want to be boring, but I can't help it
I read boring books and watch boring movies, and eat boring food.
I am boring
not as in "I am a boring person", but "I am boring" or "Boring is me"... I=boring=me.
Sorry, I just had to clarify.
Anyhow, please don't be so boring either...
What's next... let's ban MATCHES and LIGHTERS... GOD KNOWS, SOMEONE MIGHT TRY TO LIGHT THEIR SHOES ON FIRE.
LETS BAN PROPANE HEATING... THEY MAKE PERFECT BOMBS (just ask me about dropping propane tanks into a lava tube... nice explosions result - and no, we didn't do it in the park boundries).
LETS BAN GASOLINE... YOU CAN MAKE NAPALM WITH GAS AND SOAP -- AND IN FACT, LETS BAN SOAP!!! THESE ARE ALL WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION!!!
Stupid asshole government - does everything in its power to keep us citizens in fear. QUITE FRANKLY... we should haul these self-elected assholes into a nice 5 x 9 cell on ground of terrorist threats against the citizens of america.
You'd like that, wouldn't you?!
Mod Grandparent UP...
Hi.
Um... This is... well
Ah. To get straight to the point, this is the most boring post ever.
Really. There is nothing boringer (that's not really a word... look it up on Google [google.com] [google.com] if you don't believe me).
Just to clarify...
the article is not boring...
the parent post to this post is not boring...
it is solely this post that you are actually (why are you?) reading right now.
I'm sorry
I didn't want to be boring, but I can't help it
I read boring books and watch boring movies, and eat boring food.
I am boring
not as in "I am a boring person", but "I am boring" or "Boring is me"... I=boring=me.
Sorry, I just had to clarify.
Anyhow, please don't be so boring either...
When I was a kid I once shot a model rocket into the sky with, instead of a parachute, a ziplock bag filled with kerosene. Had it landed on a roof I would have likely ended up a terrorist. Fortunately it didn't. Anyway, my Mommy used supplies left over from the Gulf War to duct tape me to the fridge and I was pretty harmless from then on.
--- What?
Are they going to outlaw transporting autos also?
A late model car has quite a bit of pyrotechnics: multiple air bags, seat belt pre-tensioners (anything else?)
Email: slashdot3@FreeMars.org (Address will be abandoned when it gets spam.)
RE re re... like the song... ok. Fine. here it is.
Hi.
Um... This is... well
Ah. To get straight to the point, this is the most boring post ever.
Really. There is nothing boringer (that's not really a word... look it up on Google [google.com] [google.com] if you don't believe me).
Just to clarify...
the article is not boring...
the parent post to this post is not boring...
it is solely this post that you are actually (why are you?) reading right now.
I'm sorry
I didn't want to be boring, but I can't help it
I read boring books and watch boring movies, and eat boring food.
I am boring
not as in "I am a boring person", but "I am boring" or "Boring is me"... I=boring=me.
Sorry, I just had to clarify.
Anyhow, please don't be so boring either...
P.s. You guys are no fun
When I was a kid we used to rig these things to blow up by taking the parachute out, filling the nose cone with ground match heads, then taping it shut. The backfire from the engine would ignite the match heads, and you'd have a nice fireworks display. They weren't exactly a weapon of mass destruction in those days, but they certainly were cool.
Of course, there was that time I launched one at a group of stuck up preppies sun bathing at the pool...maybe that's what the government is worried about. I mean, it would take a hell of a lot of rocket engines and a good bit of MacGuyvering to create something truly destructive from these.
"You done taken a wrong turn."
-Bill McKinney, in Deliverance
The US Gov't hasn't banned anything related to model rockets.
Looks like UPS & Fed Ex has decided not to ship these items.
This is hardly a ban.
Sometimes reading the article related to the post is important. (But not if it is Microsoft related!)
This
... I totally disagree with you on sport being far more Tiring/consumming. Having done both at competition level I can say you I was far more tired after making a conference than having competed for my university team. At worst, brain usage is still consumming more of the ressource your body has than ever a sport will make you do.
That said, brain & intellectual stuff is deprecated in comparison to art, sport, game and what so ever and this is truly a shame. The outside apparence has over won over the inside.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
Hamas blamed it on Israel, issuing a statement saying that the men had been working on a small remote-controlled plane, which they evidently planned to use in an attack, but that Israel had booby-trapped the planes before they got to Gaza.
The more you know... These folks had a story last month about the ordering of the toys "for Palestinian children in hospitals" but finding that the planes never reached the children.
1) AP based propellent is NOT a good explosive. Believe me, I've used this stuff for years. It makes a good rocket propellent because of its safety and its consistent and slow burn rate. (Under 100 PSI pressure it burns at less than 1 inch per second, compared to black powder at 2700 inches per second. Even slower under normal atmospheric pressures and a sudden drop in pressure will actually extinguish the burn.)
2) Please regulate the crime not the tool! Isn't that what the whole DMCA issue is about? Isn't that why we hate the MPAA/RIAA, they are trying to regulate the technology itself rather than simply regulate specific uses (for which laws already exist).
3) Model rockets are fun and educational and it makes me angry to see the US government kill my hobby for NO GOOD REASON. This hobby has been going on for decades without any problems. The NAR and TRA have good relationships with most govermental bodies. We police our own because no hobbyist wants to see his launch site shut down or his hobby taken away by irresponsibe behavior. Every launch I've attended had a safety officer inspect every rocket before it was flown.
4) Model rockets as a delivery system? Please! Build a few an evaluate that for yourself.
The government just doesn't know when to back off, and model rocketeers simply don't have a big enough lobby. American tax dollars being wasted. End of story.
-Derek
Wasn't it Michael Jordan?
Yeah, I think the current system has done a fine job of putting a lot of needless fear into everyone. I think that we all forget that we are all humans, and most (99.999%) of us do not have any serious desire to kill one another.
Frankly, I would have a hell of a time punching someone, let alone shooting them dead.
But now they have us all believing that there are a lot more psychos in the world than there really are. And when you think about it, their tactics are kindof self-defeating, because sooner or later, they will run out of suicide bombers.
I think, honestly, that they are using this thing as an excuse to lock down this country a little more, so that the people with the money and power and prestige can keep that stuff, and so we can live the rest of our lives giving it too them. I don't think it's communist Indymedia craziness to say that some people in the world are hoarding wealth, not for any reason other than to keep it from the common man.
Maybe it's necessary from their point of view, to "keep the status quo", as they have everything they want right now and don't want to lose anything.
But putting me on the spot for wanting a little of it for myself, and saying I'm supporting "terrorism" because I want a little bit of stuff for myself, and putting into effect stronger and stronger laws to prevent me from ever having the opportunity to get a little bit for myself is WRONG.
Why are we fighting FOR THEM NOW? How did they turn us around so quickly from the way we felt in the 90's, when we actually started to achieve a little something for ourselves, after the long, cold war of fear and distrust? Finally we stopped being nervous that an imminent nuclear war would destroy the world. And look at what the economy did! We didn't CARE about bombs, fear, anything else. We just were LIVING our lives, in the NOW, and everything was wonderful. And the general public was becoming more and more aware of the control the mass media and HUGE corporations have over them.
Now they have us running in fear of nuclear weapons, chemical weapons, germ warfare all over again! Who CARES?
Bah.
Cool! Amazing Toys.
Just as supercomputers are being used to simulate nuclear weapons, use supercomputers to simulate model rockets.
Know your pads. One time pad: good for cryptography. Two timing pad: where to take your mistress.
Forget soap and gas, we need to BAN air and water, you could make some wicked long range rockets or explosives with these!!
I fly model planes as a hobby. Quite frankly, even for dangerous than a rocket, is a plane. For 150 dollars I have can put a plane in the air with a camera that can take pictures, clear pictures, from several hundred feet in the air. Did I mention it only costs a few bucks to put LEDS on it and fly it at night? Banning model rockets is silly, They won't lift much reliably.
-enigmabomb-
Some people tell me I am sleeping my life away, I simply tell them I am living my dreams.
Like many of you, I grew up launching model rockets every Saturday, and I have long wanted to take up that hobby again, but have not done so. It is sad to see that this hobby may die because of some stellar amount of idiocy in DC, but what concerns me more is that UPS and other shipping contractors may also start refusing shipments of small arms ammunition.
The second amendment to the US Constitution assures citizens the right to keep and bear arms, and its purpose was to ensure that the citizens can fight back against an overbearing government. If you can have arms but no munitions, you might as well not have the arms. This part of the Homeland inSecurity Act could be used to effectively deny citizens the right to keep and bear arms, and that scares me.
As if the big ass kite tethered to your person is the most ideal way to spy. Oh yeah, I'll be doing that around the nearest military base. Whatever. I'd be better off going to the nearest hill with a telescope. (btw, I'm not a spy. so fuck off carnivore!)
because I have been enjoined by this Holy Office to abandon the false opinion which maintains that the Sun is the centre
"To all ARSA Members & ALL of ROCKETRY, Next week, we will be calling on all fifty states to write and phone their US Senators. This will be in support of an exemption for rocketry materials from the Safe Explosives Act. A major announcement will be made next week in the US Senate and we want to time your letters and phone calls with that announcement. We will be putting up information you need on "talking points" for your letter and phone calls plus the names of all your Senators, their addresses, fax numbers and phone numbers. This information will be provided on:
http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html
Please notify as many people as you can about this so we can get a major response from our fellow rocketeers. This will be the time many of you have been waiting for, we must not hold anything back. I cannot stress how important a big response from each of you is to the success of this effort. We will be sending and posting more information as the time approaches. For now, get the word out on the street to assemble the troops and get ready for action.You may repost this anywhere you wish.
John Wickman"
BTW - check out the other experiments on there - cool stuff...
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
No because it is people that kill, not WMD. WMD(be they biological, nuclear or chemical), automobiles, rockets, baseball bats, hammers, knives, and many other implements/tools can be and are used to kill people. Do we outlaw automobiles, rockets, baseball bats, hammers, knives? No, of course not ...
The bikini - security through obscurity since 1943
Please people, I'm begging you. This article says NOTHING ABOUT BANNING MODEL ROCKETS. Read the article, or get a life, or both.
Evil is the money of root.
I hate to be the one to point this out, but if you have produced chemical or biological agents and you are still using a 12-year-old's toy as a weapons delivery system, you are such an incompetent terrorist that you deserve the misfire your under-powered, chemical-agent-laden hobby rocket is going to produce shortly before those chemical agents are sitributed to a very small area surrounding your person.
I think the engines themselves, being pre-assembled mass-produced products, are likely to be more reliable than the alternative delivery systems. Terrorists have used bomb timers hacked to the alarm outputs of old watches and stuffed into old boom-boxes for years. The model rocket engine will be more reliable, and likely that delivery system will be more reliable than any practical alternate delivery system - kites, hijacking crop-dusters, etc.
Consider the requirements if you want to spray crap over a crowd. Build a model rocket. Instead of the parachute, fill the rocket with the crap you wish to spray. Fire the rocket with a 9V battery and an igniter. When the engine blows the chute ejection charge, your crowd has been sprayed.
If you were a terrorist on a suicide mission, you'd go to the center of the crowd and point it straight up. Otherwise, you'd try to point it away from you.
How could you launch it in a crowd? A small model rocket, capable of 300-500 feet and running off 1/2 A engine, could be fired from a piece of 3" diameter PVC pipe in a briefcase: Flip it open, press the button, and it's done.
As a kid, I used to fire things up to D engines with PVC tubing; I had a very effective shoulder-mount missile launcher.
Model rockets have terrorist applications. That doesn't mean we should ban them, of course. But, let's face facts, we need to be vigilant. If an Arab guy came into my hobby shop, bought some model rockets, and asked me where he could buy 3,000 smoke detectors, I'd be getting his license plates and calling the FBI.
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
No offense, but are you an idiot? I ask because clearly, only an idiot could have missed the dripping sarcasm of the post to which you replied.
Yet you flamed away anyway, never bothering to READ what people have written...
...we need a law to keep Arabs out of titty bars!
I'm not sure I should admit this, but in 1984 I was the National Association of Rocketry's national champion for people 14 and under.
Oh, and the national meet was in Houston that year, and I illegally transported rocket engines in my luggage
Does this mean I'm on the FBI and homeland security watch list? Are they reading my brain waves from orbit? Have they put a spy cam on my cat? Are they looking for spent rocket casings in my garbage?
Model railroaders can tell you that rail fanning (the act of watching trains do train-things in their natural habitats such as yards) is in danger, too.
Many railfans are being harassed by police who have a lot of pointed questions when they see a sixty-year old man in a Casey Jones hat pointing binoculars at empty boxcars.
This is the second stupidest thing that home land securety has done (the first being trying to get rid of guns). These people must be !@#$ing crazy with a capital C (and a capital ! for that matter).
Ninjas kick ass.
Do you know how many 'accidents' there are in America each year, with kids making their own bungers/pipe bomb?
The medical costs of eyes, hands and burns?
I suggest authorities allowed the sale of these motors in preference of mon/dads DYI liquid fuel rockets. Burns are horrible.
So we ban something safe, while dad, and a bunch of his friends cook up a storm. Yes, chemistry is still taught, and Americans are self reliant. Licences and ration books suck, but the mighty buck does not. Prohibition lessons remain unlearned.
A cost benefit analysis screams don't do this, because there is so much bullet propellant around. Once handguns are banned, and a licence to buy bullets is compulsory, maybe such a move will make sense.
When I was a kid I went to live with my grandma. She got me into model rocketry seeing as how I was into all the technology stuff.
We had gotten back from toys-r-us with an estes clear payloader. This was the 6th rocket I had built that year and I was getting pretty good at it. I had the little base for lining up your fins at perfect angles, my sanding and painting techniques were downright perfect.
I looked at my creation in awe, this was truly one of the best rockets I had ever built.
Roaming around the backyard something told me to roll over this huge rock by the fountain. Rolling it over, I saw the usual pill bugs, worms and such, but there was something strange and black squirming around in the dirt. I picked it up, and noticed there were 2 pin sized black eyes staring at me. It was a newt.
"Astronewts!" was the first thing that popped into my head.
My grandma was famous for getting those little german candies in the metal tin, so I cleaned out an empty tin and place the "astronewt" inside the container, hopped on my bike and rode down to the schools field.
It was one of those hazy overcast days, one of those days that model rocketrist hate because it meant tracking your vehicle was near impossible when it was nothing more than a speck against the pale grey sky.
"Mr. Astronewt, you're going to be the first newt in space!" I told the little guy as I struggeled to get him into the payload compartment. I stood back the normal 15' the control wire would allow. I could see him in the chamber now, wiggling and squirming, as if he knew his own fate.
"Houston this is Astronewt oh one, we're ready to begin final countdown"
"Roger that, 5-4-3-2-1"
All the skill I had put into this rocket had paid off, the C6-7 engine shot the rocket up towards the heavens faster than any previous rocket I had built. I counted.
1-2-3-4-5-6, Main burn complete, counting down parachute deployment, 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 *POOF*
The wind had caught the parachute, and I could tell that I had better get hopping on my bike to go chase it down.
About a mile down the road was another school, and my good fortune landed my rocket right in the middle of that field. I rode up, did my classic 180 by locking my rear brakes and looked inside.
"A sad day of mourning for americans, as their first "Astronewt" died during launch today"
I wasn't entirely sure what had happened. Did he die from shock? Too many G forces during parachute deployment? What?
But anyways, onto some "ontopic" commenting
Model rockets for the most part are completely safe. I cannot fathom anyone being able to use them for anything more than an annoyance, because you cannot control their flight path, other than pointing and praying they hit their target.
Perhaps a better ban would be anything RC. RC cars and planes come to mind first. Strap a X-10 wireless camera and some C4 to your favorite RC vehicle and you have a really nice remote control bomb.
Alternatively, you could also use a single board computer coupled with GPS and write your own guidance/flight software to make a cruise missle. So I guess we should ban single board computer too because they are light enough to be used in a homemade cruise missle.
Ashcroft, get your fucking head out your ass you fucking tard.
Every single geek reading ./ needs to go visit a high power model rocket launch. If you *ever* played with Estes models as a kid you *owe* it to yourself to see what the other end of the hobby is like. You want to do this - you just don't know it yet.
The 'High Power' model rockets comprise the 'H' through 'N' rocket engine sizes - and they totally rock! you can loft cameras, radios, altimeters, and palm pilots to your hearts content.
The next letter in engine size represents a doubling of the total impulse over the previous size.
I got my Level One certification last fall - that means I can play with 'H' and 'I' motors. My certification flight was on an I-161 to something like 5200 feet. (!!) This spring I hope to fly and land my Level Two rocket and move up to the 'J' and 'K' motors. That is.. as long as AssCroft and his jack booted fun police in the BATFE don't ruin my day.
The Homeland Security bill was enacted to protect the politicians and "Captains" of industry who are the likely next targets of terrorism. They will sell out your rights to protect themselves. I for one would like to see one of our leaders stand up and say "We know the terrorists are out to get us, but I am confident the America will be able to replace us if we are lost and continue on."
We need a Schoolyard Missile Defense system NOW!
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
I recently revived my love of model rocketry, building a couple of new rockets with my girlfriend.
Having recently relocated to an urban area from a sparsely populated suburban town, I relied on my girlfriend's suggestion of using a park located on the outskirts of town for our much-anticipated launching.
Launch date came, and we headed off to our planned site. Much to my surprise, the suggested park was located DIRECTLY at the base of our local international airport. This was made evident by the large, rumbling underbody of a 747 roaring off to faraway places only a couple of hundred feet above our heads.
Needless, to say, launch was scrubbed. The rockets work just fine as decorative objects, anyway.
The fact that oil is mostly priced in dollars and that everybody is dependent on it is a good portion of what makes the dollar so strong. If too many people price their oil in euros, the dollar loses demand and may inflate a whole lot due to the sudden oversupply of currency.
This might be the dumbest argument I've ever seen. Congratulations.
The opposite of progress is congress
Look up the definition of a republic again genius. And you can't drive vehicles of any type because the manufacturing process has to be such that certain emissions are curbed dumbass. You're talking nonsense and therefore I'm not going to waste any more time on you. In conclusion, you're probably Muslim.
I hate liberals. If you are a liberal, do not reply.
Right. Stealth ICBMs, launched from whitebred suburbia, rising straight up for a few hundred or a couple thousand feet, and then falling straight down.
I bet you voted for Bush.
The handbook of Model Rocketry by the only official association in the world states that any interested hobbyist WILL NOT USE model rockets to deliver payloads that are weapons!
Futher, the FAA limits model rockets to under 1 pound, unless you have written permission from them for a larger one.
It would be stupid if the purpose were to increase our safety or security. But that's not its purpose at all.
Its purpose is to help to persuade a lot of ignorant voters that their government is "doing something" about security. It will probably succeed in this. So it will do what the politicians want it to - help them get re-elected.
It's harmful, damaging, takes away freedoms, etc and is therefore bad for the USA. But if you think it is stupid, you just don't understand what motivates politicians.
"War with a local model airplane group"? Are you kidding me? I laugh my freakin' arse off everytime I think about it.
"That board may have defeated us, But the humans won't stop there, they'll make bigger boards and bigger nails and soon they will make a board with a nail so big it will destroy them all...hahahahaha"
Now *where* did I see that site about making rocket engines out of *duct tape* ?
"You must try to forget all you have learned. You must begin to dream." -- Sherwood Anderson
One:If you think athletes are overpaid, you haven't paid attention to corporate structure recently.
CEO's of businesses which are losing money still get huge salaries, stock options and bonus packages. For losing money, for whoring our environment, for not caring about public health, these people get tens of millions of bodies.
Two: Pro sports destroys your body
Being a scientist is cooler than being an athlete, because, for one thing, you can still walk at 45. 70% or more of retired football players get debilitating arthritis. Countless other athletes retire and 10 years later can't even lift their children. Keep your money, I want to be able to hold my grandchild.
It's easy to bash those that are living what you perceive to be an easy life, but take all the factors into account first. Sports and science have both done wonderful things for my development as a human being. Finally, neither is easier than the other. One day it may be easier to go to the lab, the next it may be easier to go to the gym, depends on the day. -js
Is Ariel kite photography now gonna be banned?
I don't know about aerial kite photography, but Ariel kite photography is already outlawed in Title 17, United States Code. The Walt Disney Company holds exclusive rights under copyright in The Little Mermaid, accidental dick tower and all.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Do any of you know what you can make if you cook these ingredients up correctly? I think the Patriot act is anything but. I've been flying model rockets with my kids for years! They are going to force hobbyists to create a small kerosene/hydrogen peroxide engine. Gee.. a solid rocket propellant is a lot safer. Next thing you know anyone with a brain that thinks for themselves will be thrown in a concentration camp. If we start outlawing everthing then the terrorists won.
www.amazing1.com has a schematic for a weird
rocket engine, I'm going to check that out.
I have no clue if it will work with my homebrew
rocket powered glider.
Yes....with my amassing of model rockets I will take over the world! What's this? Bah! ... They're on to me! Fools! My plan foiled!
SIGFAULT
While we can all agree that child porn is bad
I had a conversation with my friends R Kelly, Pee Wee and the principal from Ferris Buehler's Day Off, and they didn't agree! Michael Jackson was undecided.
this sort of approach starts us down a slipperly slope
I DO love pron with slippery slopes.. what's the URL?
Not sure what "slipperly" means... is Hugh Hefner "slipperly" when he is in his robe?
Listen Duffian, the ACLU is a special interests organization. They only support extremist entities that are threateded by US law and the Constitution.
The ACLU, more than anything they do, attempts to remove our freedoms as Americans.. and all freedom loving individuals of the world. They do this through deception and lies. Hmmm, sounds much like Mr Hussein to me.
Saying to us, become a member is like saying to us, become a terrorist.
Time to ban "the rockets red glare, the bombs bursting in air" that we associate with the celebration of our freedom on the fourth of July!
just wrote the comment for the subject line
When I was a kid, my father and I were *really* into model rocketry. We had, I think, at least two hundred Estes rockets--at least one of every model they made. Where we live, it's hard to find places free of tree cover so guess where we went to launch them? Fort Sam Houston! We went to an Army post to launch our rockets. We'd drive over to the parade grounds, set up our launch pad and launch all afternoon. Occaisonally, the MPs would stop by and watch us (more out of interest than concern) but nobody ever told us to go away.
These days, you can't even *get* on Fort Sam Houston without a military ID and I'm scared to think about what would happen if you launched a model rocket there.
We had a rather eccentric neighbor who was ex-military (WWII, Korea, and Vietnam), and who worked on one of the US missile systems (patriot, I think). Anyway, one day he was telling my mom about how easy it would be to put a bomb on a remote controlled airplane, fly it in to someone's house, and then detonate it, with no one knowing what happened. Thing is, he probably could have done it himself with stuff in his garage or something.
Let's just say that he was the sort of neighbor you wouldn't want to get mad at you. He wouldn't blow anything up (at least I don't think he would), but he's the sort of guy that, when he got into a dispute with the county about hooking up to county water, ended up deeding a one foot perimeter around his property to the government of Iran because that would make it too hard for the county to pull emminent domain. Yep, you got that right, I lived across the street from property owned by a member of the Axis of Evil!
Eagles may soar, but weasles don't get sucked into jet engines...
The link talks about the inability to SHIP the rockets... it's still legal to sell the ones that are sold today. So if Estes wants to ship the rockets (and stay in business) they'll need to find another transportation method. Have you ever seen non-ups delivery trucks (like for target, a bakery, etc)? Yea, that's what you use if you're not shipping by UPS. Probably not as cheap, but a far cry from outlawing model rockets as people seem to assume the article was talking about.
As to all of the talk about warheads: it's been illegal to have bigger rockets for a while (but I remember being able to send off for M size rocket plans when I was a kid).
We've got to put a stop to this insanity.
People are using the war as an excuse to hack away at the constitution. With model rockets banned, that'll set a precedent and there's no telling what else will be banned. Well, I'm sure we'll still have our guns, but I guess my books, keyboard, and mouth (since they could be used as terrorist weapons.) will be illegal.
I'm sick and tired of 9/11 and the so called "war on terror" being so abused. It's exactly what hitler did. Distract the masses while you take away their freedoms and make them fear "the enemy" so they'll love you.
Bush 'n pals have been (and still are) trying to get rid of checks and balances in our government (in the name of security.) Gee what a great idea, lets just trash that which keeps the country from being taken over by the tyrannous megalomaniacs in the government! Oh wait... Bush is a tyrannous megalomaniac. He isn't even listening to the voters who put him in office... oh wait... voters didn't put him in office.
By definition, terrorism is, "The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons."
Hmmm... Who's doing that more than Bush, Ashcroft and Rumsfeld?
-Derick
We need to get involved to stop this madness! This county is heading for a police state! There is no need for any of these restrictions and we need to do something about it! There are many of people and groups out there trying to put this bs to a halt. Write your congressman and tell him about it. The only way things will change is if people get involved!
ThinkGeek will be closed any day now for funding/supplying terrorists!
Does this make my brain look big?
The president needs to stay focused at this important hour.
> What I don't get either is why CIA snipers just cant do their job. Instead US ends up spending
> billions on dollars on bombing entire nations back to stone age.
Because civilized nations are supposed to be against premeditated murder being carried out by the government.
War - in theory - is meant to terminate policies, not people. Death is - again, in theory - never the goal of war, but is a tragic side effect. War - still theory - is waged to protect cherished ideals, with the purest of intentions.
These views are, of course, hopelessly idealistic, but clinging to what we can of that idealism - trying as best we can to do what we believe is right, even in the messiest of situations - is what stops us from being merely thugs with big guns. If we officially condone murders of convenience, saying "we'll kill people we don't like", not only do we lose the very ideals we're trying to protect, we provide instant reasons for people to hate us, ensuring an even larger population of people we don't like in the future. Either we keep killing more and more, or we stop and say "this is not right."
Finally, don't forget that not all the people a government dislikes live in other countries. If the US government murders people it doesn't like in other countries, why not Americans it doesn't like? This is a ball we do not want to start rolling.
OH, shit. Soon we'll have officially mandated nudity in public spaces (my nudist friend would be in hogg heaven).
I'm still of the opinion that the best thing to happen to the anti-terrorism effort in the air isn't goverment prohibitions on anything more dangerous than a hat -- It's the fact that passengers are now willing to take responsibility for their safety and security. If passengers had reacted on Sept 11 like they seem to now, the hijackers would probably have never made it into the cockpit, much less to their respective target buildings.
Sometimes boldness is in fashion. Sometimes only the brave will be bold.
Well, safety matches are (were?) the same material used in certain high-order explosives, namely Ammonium Nitrate. Some other things like those freeze packs you chuck in with food to keep it cold at the beach are full of it. Are these going to become illegal? And if not, wouldnt these be a big threat - just as much as solid rocket fuel?! While you're there, you may as well ban knives to stop murders. Hell, get rid of all those doors so people cant actually *go* anywhere. That'd stop the terrorism
clipy clop clipy clop
Although you have rendered your arguments vacuous by resorting to invective I will reply in your mode of communication.
Look up the definition of a republic again genius
My point is, moron, that too many people, like you, let the representatives drive the operation of the government. You confuse definitions and operations.
Why bother to check on the beliefs of someone you selected to represent you after you send them to the government? I guess you're just to busy trying to grok the essence of hexadecimal for your freshman computing class mid-term to capture the subtlety of my meaning.
Why don't you look up the definition of a representative and re-read my post, sonny?
And you can't drive vehicles of any type because the manufacturing process has to be such that certain emissions are curbed dumbass.
Too technically incompetent to do an aftermarket modification, eh? There are thousands of sources for aftermarket equipment. Just because you drive a POS made in Japan and designed by the EPA doesn't mean I must.
Since none of the six "lot cars" on my farm are registered to drive on public roads, they have no catalytic converters or other smog control devices, no license plates, no inspection stickers, no insurance, two have no doors, all have no seatbelts and all are fueled by propane. Both my tractors run on propane as well. Since these vehicles don't operate over public roads they are not bound by the governmental controls for vehicles manufactured for use on the public road system. All those process controls to curb emissions apply only to vehicles on public roads.
All these prohibitions, like copiing files forbidden, paper rockets forbidden, as far as eating pork forbidden, etc. are by way inspired with "naive user" idea introduced by microsoft. The idea, that public is stupid, is strange somehow, but was surprisingly accepted by this stupid public itself.
...and big brother is allways ready, of course.
Now public wants to be regulated by government to not do unsafe things. Well, they are so naive, they need big brother to help them in this unsafe world.
Microsoft role is that it teached people how naive they are. This is once again a big achievement in the history of world.
... if you outlaw model rockets, then only outlaws will have model rockets *fear*
Try buying a car with no catalytic converter.
Simple, find someone who wants to sell one and offer them money.
after market modification don't you understand, you ignorant fool?
Pyromainia, Pyromania, Pyromania!! YEAH!!!
Eat at Joe's.
Ummm. For dispersing biological and chemical agents, a Balloon is much more useful as it'll stay afloat in one area for much longer. So are we going to ban helium and party balloons !
In any case, the effectiveness of Bio/Chem is very doubtful, any mild breeze might compromise it completely.
The problem is that people are ruled by FEAR. Unscrupulous and naive politicians / officials are taking FULL advantage of that.
I choose not to live in fear and deny myself freedoms.
It is stupid to use legal technicalities to make life intolerable for companies simply because the regulation is poorly designed. Sadly, we are vulnerable as an open society, and a bit of mayhem now and then is the price we pay for our freedom, boneheaded regulation won't change that. A gallon of gasoline killed all those people in Korea, we aren't outlawing that. A remote controlled airplane would be a much more accurate and powerful delivery device than a model rocket. A potato cannon could be used to launch bio/chem mortars. My bare hands are a weapon, my mind is a weapon. The entire point of unconventional warfare is that you don't see it coming. I recently found a document on a local county web page which provides information for contractors bidding on a new police communications system. It had the entire emergency infrastructure in a big .pdf file that was just sitting there without a password for free download by anyone. Where any terrorist could get exact directions to every emergency services facility and system in the county, from emergency radio transmission points to 911 primary and backup sites. And the general architecture for their new CRIMNET and the national NCIC so if you were a good hacker you could get in and issue false arrest reports, derail an investigation or get rid of your traffic tickets or whatever you want. A small group of evil doers could cause chaos with that info. That is the kind of thing that needs regulation and protection, not model rockets.
you had it the wrong way around: No because an estes type model rocket couldn't carry much mass to any useful height. you several magnitudes larger to carry even a hand-grenade (think bazookas- way bigger than an estes. range: several hundred meters). Yes because it's people with guns that kill people. Countries that have an ingrained gun culture (and lots of guns) have higher death rates. for many reasons obviously murder is number one. then there's manslaughter where the gun was intended only as a threat but it all went wrong. also accidental plays a large part. it varies from year to year but last i heard the US were loosing about THIRTY THOUSAND people a year to gun related violence (9/11 was nothing). granted if you want to kill someone you will but your resolve will have to be much stronger. whens the last time you heard of someone accidentally strangling someone (sorry, we were arguing and my hands just 'went off'). or a drive-by stabbing? P.S: should you want to make your own rocket all you need is potassium nitrate (fertiliser from a hardware store) and sugar. you can buy 25KG for about $30 australian. that'll make you a big enough rocket :-) that is until they ban fertiliser.....
I'm thinking of the one on Van Ness that's part of the UDC campus. It's just west of the main quad, and south of a football field. The mapquest photo make it look like it's still there...
To be honest, though, I haven't been back there in years.
spreer
I stand, or rather, sit corrected.
I guess I am a failure as a bio-terrorist.
Yeay.
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