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Windows 2003 Going Gold
chill writes "According to CNet's News.com, 'Microsoft is expected to announce on Friday that Windows Server 2003 has completed testing and has been certified final, or gold, code.' With 35% of their server customers still using NT 4 -- the NT 4 that is so broke it can't be fixed -- Microsoft is hoping for quick adoption."
Too bad it'll be SP 1 or 2 in 2004 that'll leave it usable and somewhat secure. I actually prefer 2000. The XP interface and how it handles some things really left me cold.
I was led to this place, a place I can't understand. A place that demands my belief just as strongly as my disbelie
I for one think microsoft is right in thinking the NT 4 crowd is perfect for quick adoption.
All Microsoft has to do to force people to purchase upgrades is include a fatal flaw in each of their released systems. Then, with their new found buy of a VM company, they can offer a new system (at a price) that is secure, but runs all the programs from the old system.
You are then left with a choice, stay with an unsecure system which will never be patched (unless independent sources patch the flaw,) or buy a new system at an inflated price, that will do exactly the same thing your old system did, but not have the fatal security flaw.
Really, it's quite an ingenious business plan, because they aren't forcing you to do anything, just making sure they get paid for all these patches they've been releasing for free.
I would not be surprised to start seeing them stop patching all their older OSes, and seeing their new OSes all include legacy VM support so you can run the old programs without the security bugs.
Then you are left to a choice, buy more software from Microsoft (so you can run securely), use OS software with respective VMs (and take the risk that all of your software won't work), or keep using your unsecure OS.
Unfortunately, for most businesses only one of those 3 options is viable.
~ kjrose
Is there really who will run a critical application on W2003 before sp1?
Oh, wait, you mean *legal* copies? Nevermind.
Condemnant quod non intellegunt.
Microsoft is talking about this Palladium and now this? Hey! It cant be! Microsoft is taking over Software market, amazing.
Instead of incurring the massive expense of replacing the equipment that currently runs NT 4 plus the licences of running Windows 2003, perhaps they should just move over to Linux. Maybe there is scope for an advertising campaign from Red Hat or others that says as much.
Better yet, perhaps someone should offer an NT 'migration kit' which attempts to replicate the NT services and settings in Linux.
its when a piece of code is frozen and declared as what will make its way onto the production cd's
I believe (tho I'm not certain) that Gold refers to the color of the CD master that goes off to get reproduced for mass consumption.
Wow, good timing! I just wonder how many network admins will get ticked off that MS didn't fix NT so they're going to try out something else for a change (ie, enter Linux). Most companies aren't willing to jump to a new server OS for mission critical applications, which is most likely WHY anyone would still have NT running. Very few people are comfortable running version 1.0 server software, which is essentially what this is.
I think it is a bit irresponsible for them to NOT support NT, and I just don't by the "too complex" architecture bit. Honestly, I think they don't want to fix it- it's time to move customers to the next version. They could come out with a really heavy service pack, but that probably doesn't make much business sense. It's likely they have a good grip on how many people are running NT still-- perhaps losing those customers are probably cheaper than doing another service pack? In addition, the only companies that REALLY need to be concerned are those that can't block the appropriate port with a firewall since that is a temporary fix.
I think Windows is going towards another element: Palladium
Hehehehehe
Going gold usually refers to the point at which the codebase is released to manufacturing for production. Everyone feels the product is ready (enoguh) for prime-time, and it's sent out to be mastered, reproduced, packaged, and readied for distribution to the retail/reseller channels.
Idiot, n. A member of a large and powerful tribe whose influence in human affairs has always been dominant
Vendors (and open source developers) call something "gold" when they're ready to release it, i.e., they've completed the beta testing and fixes to their satisfaction for an initial release.
Now that Palladium is going to lock me into Windows, I'm switching to OpenBSD with some GUI on it.
And I've been a windows guy forever...
When even guys like me leave, that's it.
Mind you, this'll take some years yet...
It's Christmas everyday with BitTorrent.
"the NT 4 that is so broke it can't be fixed -- Microsoft is hoping for quick adoption." I don't think they will ever release anything that isn't broke, so, "hopefully someone that knows something will adopt us" is probably what Billy is thinking.
Mine means my own, but how can this be if I owe for it?
I see a lot of sarcasm (not only here) on the subject of NT4 not being fixed. Let's not forget the OS was introduced in 96. I'm not sure about the rest of you but I'm not running a linux-distro that's 7 years old.
/(bb|[^b]{2})/
Today, Microsoft has released a new patch for their Windows.net 2003 Server line, fixing major security flaws.
For whom, exactly, would this be a "Security enhancement"?
this time, its not Windows which can't be fixed, its the license. Nobody is going to upgrade to WS 2003 unless they have to. WinNT 4.0 is slow and insecure, agreed, but it does the job and has been fairly extensively debugged (after 6 or so Service Packs). This is even more incentive for people to use Linux, the transition is cheaper, and although the cost per techie is higher, the TCO is arguably lower. When will MS ever realise that the product isn't the problem?
I still use NT 4, so does my university. Hell, they only upgraded some of their machines from linux 1.x about a year ago.
Three years from now a sizable portion of the windows server marketbase will still be using windows nt. NT SP6 is a solid product: if it works, why upgrade? Sure it might have security issues, but if you think new MS OS'es dont you're insane.
It means a company is ready to profit heavily from it's software. The roots of the phrase "going gold" can be traced back to the first Crusade, when Pope Urban II, tired of having to cow the French nobility to action, declared that he was immediately ready to "go gold," i.e. reap massive profits from those less powerful (and early adopters). Software companies picked up the term shortly thereafter.
I think what MS wants to say is that if people don't buy their new stuff, they will soon be so broke it can't be fixed. Poor guys.
I don't need a signature.
You are correct, Sir, sort've. Gold used to refer to the color (and I believe also materials) of the CD master that was sent off for duplication. However, other higher performing and longer lasting materials have become available, and, as such, Gold cds are no longer gold. But the term has stuck.
There's also, of course, the joke that once it's gone gold, you can finally start making money off it, or brining in the gold.
bance.net
Your argument is quite logical based on your assumption/accusation. But, really, that's where the problem lies:
All Microsoft has to do to force people to purchase upgrades is include a fatal flaw in each of their released systems
Fine, call them idiots everytime a new security issue is found. Instead, you are insinuating that they PURPOSELY include holes PREMEDITATED before the release of the product under the ASSUMPTION that it will not be found until AFTER they release the latest greatest product.
their new OSes all include legacy VM support so you can run the old programs without the security bugs.
From your POV, this is support for your twisted accusation. Actually, it is a very customer friendly action. You can use what you have for now instead of insisting that you have to use "Mission Critical App your Business Would Fail Without.LATEST VERSION designed ONLY for Latest Windows (TM)"
Not a big deal that you can try to make this lousy argument. What is sad is that you found people to mod your post "Insightful" and "Interesting" while my post will soon be modded "Flamebait" and "Troll" becuase it is unpopular not to see ultimate evil in every action by M$
---"What did I say that sounded like 'Tell me about your day?'"---
...yeah... Comedy Gold!
10. If Bill Gates gets more money, he can afford a borg implant for his left eye, too.
9. Linux? Never heard of it.
8. It satisfies the overwhelming slashdot community demand for Palladium, secure
computing, and better enforcement of the DMCA.
7. SAVE OVER $300 ON V1AGRA (oops. my spam filter failed and one slipped into the list)
6. w3 3l33t d00dz must have 1t 2 run directx for Quakedoom 6.
5. IN SOVIET RUSSIA, 2003 WINDOWS YOU!
4. Hey, they've got a monopoly reputation to maintain. Why not help them?
3. Oh boy! Another EULA to ignore!
2. Microsoft says this one's going to be really really good! Why should
I not believe them?
1. It moves us ever closer to Windows 2078, in which all the security holes
will be fixed once and for all.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
Ok, while Microsoft can certaintly afford to support their old OSs like NT4, and they probably should considering a lot of people use them. It's hard to blame them for not doing so. I mean, it's like people have this obsession with uptime. It wont destroy your company if you turn all the servers off for maybe an hour while you upgrade to 2k or now 2k3, or linux even.
I see it like this.
company: My computer is insecure, patch it.
MS: Your using an OS from years and years ago. Get a new one.
company: no.
is the same as
company: My house is insecure, upgrade the locks on my doors.
locksmith: You're using locks from the victorian era. There is no way to "upgrade" that. You just have to get modern locks, you know, ones that work. We've learned a lot about locks since then, and the ones we make now are actually useful.
company: no.
While there are tons of issues like having to pay MS for licenses, etc. etc. But when it all comes down to it its a matter of a company that can't stand to have their system down for a little bit of time. Sure, there are indeed some mission critical things that shouldn't go down, but its not like people will die. And if someone breaks in you'll lose a lot more than that little downtime would cost you. The only computers that can never go down are in a hospital, and even then only if they are keeping people alive. And those shouldn't be running Windows.
The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
Is like saying you want patches for your 1.3.x Linux kernel branch (which was released around the same time as NT 4). Think Linus would care if there were a flaw found in 1.3.75? DOUBTFUL.
Prevent linux based DDOS's!
http://linux.denialofservice.org/
A betting pool has started on how long after Gold is released it will turn into Lead (How long until the first major security hole will be found)
An anonymous wager has been placed for 5 minutes..
Windows 2003 Server doesn't support the XP interface at all. It looks like 2000 and you cannot make it look like Windows XP. A lot of the "eye candy" is left out; it has no place in a server GUI.
Doesn't sound like "certified" or "gold" mean much, since there were 6(?) service packs on Win 2000 alone, which was supposed to be so much better than NT (also like 6 service packs). I use Win2k, and it's "OK", but crashes too much for me.
stuff |
It sounds to me like you're having a hardware problem. Take a look at what .dll's are corrupt, match them with a driver and match those drivers to a piece of hardware. If the hardware is too "integrated" it sounds like you're screwed and have to send it in. Some advice you may want to consider. Spend less time caring about your OS that you can change, and more worrying about quality hardware.
--fetch daddy's blue fright wig, i must be handsome when i release my rage
Not that ingenious! They are squeezing too hard! Our company is actually reviewing (seriously reviewing, like in the process of acting...) using Linux for several services. MS is just plain too expensive, and their incessant need to lock everyone in (and all competition out) is basically scaring us away as well. They've gone too far and they are going farther...and quite simply, we're not going to take it anymore!
I'm sure we'll continue to use MS products in the future, but only where they are the best option, and we will not be forced to use them!
I think that Microsoft should change the way they name releases... instead of say, i.e. "it goes Gold", say "it condensated" (from the vapor it was all those years, I mean)... saying that "it goes Solid" in the same way of thinking would be misleading, there is nothing solid in a new released Windows until there is a big amount of service packs applied.
Also the name had changed even more than the projected release date, first Whistler, next Windows 2002 Server, next Windows .Net Server, then Windows .Net Server 2003, and the final name is Windows Server 2003. I wonder if their own "mutating penguin" ad gives them some inspiration for this name and date changes.
Microsoft is running microsoft.com on it. See here.
get nemulator
In other news, the first exploits for the new windows version are still behind schedule. "We still need a bit of final QA and tests on some obscure hardware" said l33t h4x0r, one of the many 14-year olds waiting eagerly for windows 2003. "I mean, the old one was funny for a while", l33t said, "but after a couple years it got boring finding the essentially same bugs again and again and again."
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
In our office we will never seriously consider Linux as a replacement for Windows file servers simply because the security on the file system is too basic. We need it to support access control lists! We do, however, use Linux for firewalling, email serving, http proxy, etc.
Forgot to mention that they're using RC1. I'd say that qualifies as pre-SP1.
get nemulator
What does the firm you got the system from do when MS decides it won't patch NT anymore? The OS is closed source, no matter what other merit it has for you, the IT-firm you bought it through can not patch it on its own. Support is therefore limited to maintenance until something weird happens on the network and your NT4 servers aren't prepared.
Of course these cash cows are behing a proper firewall, so getting to them would be hard, but still.. running a closed source OS that the original manufacturer has stopped supporting doesn't sound very clever to me.
Also, I imagine that your servers are somehow clustered to provide failover. What keeps you from adding a new machine to the cluster to absorb load while you take the others down in sequence to upgrade them (either to Win2K (3 years old, still supported, and by now quite proven) or maybe even Linux (2.2-kernels are rock-solid, RedHat will support them)?
I'm not bashing NT because of its merits as an OS, I just think it's not very clever for any company to put all their eggs in a basket the original basket-maker won't vouch for anymore, won't fix if it breaks, and won't supply you with the needed tools to fix it yourself. I'd say that is a very strong reason, and rushing is never good. Just plan ahead and draft proper upgrade procedures, build a test lab setting to see if what you're planning will work, then carefully roll out the upgrade gradually.
Learn from the mistakes of others. There isn't enough time to make them all yourself.
Anyone have a measurement of how many versions of windows have gone gold compred to duke nuke 'em?
Sounds like we have a new measurement for age once duke nuke 'em does come out.
"Yeah, our software went gold in half a nuke"
-
ping -f 255.255.255.255 # if only
Having a firewall protect your vulnerable servers may seem like a good idea, and it is in part, but in most offices the majority of "attacks" come from within the organization. Also, what if your firewall is compromised? It will be easier for a cracker to gain access to systems that are still vulnerable. Personally this whole "we can't fix NT 4" attitude from MS is suspicious. Sounds like they are simply trying to push people to upgrade. On the other hand, NT 4 is freakin' old. Does Red Hat support a 7 year old version of Linux?
Fine, call them idiots everytime a new security issue is found. Instead, you are insinuating that they PURPOSELY include holes PREMEDITATED before the release of the product under the ASSUMPTION that it will not be found until AFTER they release the latest greatest product.
I am not stating that they premeditate the insertion of the bug, but I am stating that they aren't going out of their way to remove them.
A majority of the bugs that have been discovered in windows would be easily caught by a proper security QA code review team.
I am more saying that they don't go out of their way to remove security bugs before release, not that they actively place bugs in there. It's not very easy to place a bug that seems like an accident and that won't be found by the public for a while.
Not a big deal that you can try to make this lousy argument. What is sad is that you found people to mod your post "Insightful" and "Interesting" while my post will soon be modded "Flamebait" and "Troll" becuase it is unpopular not to see ultimate evil in every action by M$
I find it disappointing that a person who obviously is knowledgeable and logical resorts to insulting not only me, but people who mod my post and people who mod yours. In a way it is an irony that you were wrong and your post was modded insightful (at least it was insightful when I first read it.) Personally though, I find your post very interesting and insightful, and it points out something that I had unfortunately failed to clarify my stance on.
I don't see ultimate evil in every action by Microsoft, I just see a lot of potential for abuse, and historically Microsoft has taken advantage of these opportunities. Perhaps this time they aren't, but unfortunately you and I will never truly know.
~ kjrose
just another meme for the FUD factory
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
I know MS are not dummies. I actually admire how quick they are, but there something very strange going on now. They know that linux is starting to hurt them. They know the economy is in shambles. They know there is a war on and security is on everyone's mind. The only thing I can think they are doing is knowlingly using the fear of the current war *and* refusing to make things more secure unless people buy their new servers. Are they really doing the equivalent of scaring little old ladies?
Sigs are dangerous coy things
Announcer: "Krusty the Klown" is brought to you by the new "Windows 2003": It's slightly better ... to the max!
Bart: [watching on TV] 2003? [groan] And I'm stuck with this useless Windows XP? [he drop-kicks the system into the fireplace, where it slowly melts]
XP System: Don't destroy me! I can still make you happy ... to the max!
I think given today's TCP/IP-centric networking, most server users should have dumped Windows NT Server a LONG time ago for Linux, OpenBSD/FreeBSD or the newer Windows Server versions.
Besides, Windows 2000 Server and now Windows Server 2003 supports ACPI configuration, which makes adding new hardware and driver support for new hardware much easier.
XFS offers acls and has been out for a few years now. The upcoming Reiser4 will support them and if I'm not mistaken the 2.5 series kernels will contain a common framework for acls so that one can switch between acl supporting filesystems with minimal breakage.
people are still patching it today :
http://www.mikes-afordable.com/
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
If it's anything like previous "gold" releases of MS products, it is "going gold" the way a lump of lead will "go gold" if you dip it in a solution of gold nitrate.... :)
Won't you adopt one? They come from a background of abuse and neglect.
It takes a village to raise an OS.
Microsoft has used the term "gold" since before they were burning CD masters. Windows 3.1 and almost all products before that were mastered on floppies. Some reference materials were available on CD-ROM, but not many, until Windows 3.0 MPC and Windows 3.1 made CD-ROM an obvious and ubiquitous replacement.
The top tier authoritative master, regardless of media type, is "gold," and the direct copies from that master are "silvers." It's the silvers that are taken to the various departments to sign off, and silvers that are taken to the production facility. The gold goes in the vault.
[
I have to say that 'nix 2.4 was a revelation after spending time using NT4. But Win2k is quite a good product. But MS will be on to a loser launching a costly product in the middle of a downturn - good news for Linux though and another reason why MS are being slaughtered in the server field.
there is no such thing as "certifying gold".
it's b.s.
"going gold" means that the software/code/app whatevah has been sent off to a CD Mastering company to create a GOLD (reflective layer) GLASS MASTER disc for replication into those cheap $0.02 plastic coasters we all know and love.
Are you crazy? Have you not been seeing the world evolve around you? Linux went from NOTHING, NOTHING, in 1993 to being a multi-BILLION dollar industry today. I'd be careful about making statements like "Linux won't stand the test of time", for fear of eating crow.
Yes, it's still quite a bit fly by night in many places, desktops, groupware, manufacturing, accounting. However there are a LOT of people working very hard to fill these holes.
The "source code", so to speak, for the Model T is out there, and Ford will not sue you for making or modifying Model T parts.
It is not unfair that Ford does not support the Model T, but it might be if they did what they are not doing: prevent the Model T devotees from "supporting" their cars.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
Microsoft has renamed its Shared Source program as Freedom Source program!
- adam
"...or buy a new system at an inflated price, that will do exactly the same thing your old system did..."
The 2003 servers will cost the same or, in some cases less than 2000 server. And you call that inflation?
The truth doesn't care what I think.
Awfully convenient don't you think, that an UN-FIXABLE bug shows up in NT 4.0 right before 2003 server goes gold. Seems a little toooooo convenient to me.
Next thing ya know MS is going to tell us they didn't have anything to do with removing dividend taxes right after they started paying them.
The simple fact is that upgrading from NT4 is waaaaaaaay too hazardous to try. This seems like a joke, but it's not. My workplace upgraded from NT4 Terminal Server and some version of Citrix to Win2K and a newer version of Citrix, and it took us weeks and a ton of downtime to come even close to finished, because of conflicts with applications that had worked fine under NT4 TS, but now were crashing/running into permission blocks/etc under the new config. Not to mention the issues we had with upgrading profiles, and everything else. This is literally why our webserver is still NT4 SP6a, and our SQL server is MS SQL 7 on NT4. We're too afraid of the possible downtime associated with the upgrades of these absolutely critical boxes. True, the security risks could be just as bad, but when in doubt, my boss wants the status quo. My boss would love to go to a Unix, because it's free... but we've dumped an insane amount of money into licenses. So that's also impossible at this point. Good strangehold MS has, now that I think about it. =) -Greg
-Greg
I've got a Dell server running NT4 with an uptime of over 500 days. The nice thing about such an old OS is that it doesn't get updated every 2-6 months! And because I'm behind a firewall, I don't need to worry about the recent vulnerability.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
Hmmm, so if you have Windows 2003 Server, I wonder if M$ will also capitalize by releasing Back Office 2003 .... and force everyone to use enterprise software that is 2003 and higher as well .....
...
As is, you have to have Windows XXXX Server to use their enterprise software, and since they're even more active in tracking server licenses, doesn't anyone else think that MIGHT also use this opportunity to force everyone to upgrade all of their other software packages as well???
Just a crazy thought
HallmarkOrnaments.Com
Uh, this is about to get really confusing...quotes of quotes, oh well...
/. gallery.
/. *grin*
I am not stating that they premeditate the insertion of the bug, but I am stating that they aren't going out of their way to remove them
My response was based on your original post and was all I had to go on. Look at it again, my emphasis, of course...
ALL Microsoft has to do to FORCE PEOPLE to purchase upgrades is INCLUDE A FATAL FLAW in each of their released systems"
I'm sorry, I am trying to see how it is your original post wasn't SUGGESTING that it was purposeful. REALLY trying.
If you simply think they missed it, then this is the normal software cycle and really is nothing to comment on.
In a way it is an irony that you were wrong and your post was modded insightful
I agree, I was wrong, and rather amused.
Okay, you wish to stand outside of the the camp that holds EVERY M$ action as evil. That's cool.
But, I stand by my original "insult"-
One person say something bad about M$=much cheering from the
Another person calls that post unfounded, it will most likely be buried.
ESPECIALLY on
---"What did I say that sounded like 'Tell me about your day?'"---
Yeah, the lock analogy has more to do with letting things in and out of an existing structure, sort of like a server does. And yes I know that it isn't perfect. But the lock analogy was closer than demolishing a whole house...
All you need is a single vindictive employee inside your company, one with moderate computer skills, and they could screw over your NT boxes without you knowing who did it? Internal firewalls/IDS are just as important as external firewalls. No need to tap fibres, just an angry user with his own proper account.
I run a much smaller network myself (small design/media firm, not exactly a corp), and it's got packet filtering on every server to prevent or at least log unusual behavior from any otherwise legitimate clients. For example connections from server A to server B and vice versa are never needed. I block any traffic between them from both sides. If one of the servers gets compromised, it can't be used as a launchpad to attack the others. I've seen too many cases where the threat (and successful breakin) came from the inside. This is especially true for schools/colleges, but I've also seen interns at corps "explore" the network and get to places they never should have been able to get to.
Remember how NT only got its C2 certification when it's not connected to any network at all? That way you could just as well cast your server in concrete and lower it to the bottom of the ocean. It won't get hacked, but it won't get used either. Networked computers are a risk, both from the outside and the inside. The inside risk just gets overlooked much too often.
Just a question about your scanning procedure. Do you know in advance what an MS patch will do without applying it to some test server? The difference between a patch and a virus are very small, and I'm not trying to bash MS here.. it just that patches, like viruses, alter existing binaries.
Learn from the mistakes of others. There isn't enough time to make them all yourself.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
- If you are a normal user, you could give a crap. No upgrade.
- If you are a developer, you might upgrade if you can afford it/justify it/take the time to stress it out. But I can't see much development moving to 2003 anytime soon, other than just testing on it.
- Most companies are in a bind, they've just figured out how to work 2K or XP upgades into their budgets/plans. 2003 is NOT going to be appealing for awhile.
- If they've already upgraded to 2K, they're not going anywhere. 2K's been solid for me, and it seems like the rest of the world generally agrees. (YMMV) At least we know of a lot of the problems with 2K and (if you've kept up with it) the patches are applied. No surprises. 2003? It's like opening a present from your grandmother. You have no idea what's inside, but you're pretty sure you're not going to like it.
- If you are using NT, you are either a) an NT zealot/whore and you wouldn't switch if God himself upgraded, b)you have so many scars from NT that you now feel obligated to your tormentor *crack!* Yes, Mistress!, or c) you are on NT for a reason...you have a 56 day uptime, the box sits in the corner under the donut rack, and has survived 3 major floods. You can't justify getting rid of it.
So. Microsoft releases yet another product to mediocre reviews and sluggish market response. Next.Blog,Twitter
Yah but it wasn't ENJOYABLE to use. The term "bug ladden piece of crap" comes to mind.
As it is, just getting a fresh Win2K install upgraded to SP1 is not all that fun, ick.
Need help treating your acne? Come here!
Microsoft is expected to announce on Friday that Windows Server 2003 has completed testing and has been certified final, or gold, code.
Final code? Does that mean this one can't be
fixed, either?
With 35% of their server customers still using NT 4
At least the NT4 users know what bugs they are dealing with. With 2003 you have the joy of discovering a whole new set of bugs. And having to pay for the privilege too.
One man's upgrade in another man's pain in the ass. That's not a bug, that's a feature. Etc.
Paugh.
Does it come with Duke Nuke'em?
;)
good idea, but it's easier to pirate software than hardware ;)
> Very few people are comfortable running version 1.0 server software, which is essentially what this is.
I'd hardly equate it with version 1.0 software. Last time I checked, Windows has been around for awhile and they reuse code. Modern Windows is much more mature than Windows of the previous decade. A better analogy would be a .0 release of RedHat - wait for the .1 or .2
Get your Unix fortune now!
You can make your own SP-slipstreamed CDs for 2000 or XP. Here's a good site that discusses it.
I don't agree. Windows 2000 without any service packs was not "bug ladden(sic)". Yes, it had bugs. Hardly any affected 95% of the users, or it wouldn't have been released. Bash MS all you want, but their beta process for Windows is very good at weeding out most of the bugs.
Security bugs are a different story. Beta testers are not qualified to find those. Heck, most people have no real idea of how to search for security flaws.
to being a multi-BILLION dollar industry today
really. and its supposed to be so cheap as for the costs to be negligible for people migrating to it. How, then, does the industry supporting it get billions of dollars of revenue?
All I'm going to say here is I was hired at my current ISP and everything was being run on WinNT. As you know the economy is pretty jacked right now and things have been tight for the past year. We're still on WinNT for a few of our things. I have, however, placed linux in several places over the 3 years I've been working there. We simply can't afford Win2k or Win2k3 license fees right now and with 2 GLARING problems that I see I wouldn't do it anyway.
I'm a very security minded individual. I lock everything down as much as I can and run patches ATLEAST weekly. The problem here is, in that 3 years time, I've sat here and watched my Windows servers get comprimised 9 times. Not a single one of my linux servers have been. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, I'm just saying I haven't had a problem with that happening. Now they turn around and expect me to purchase a new server license to continue to run software that I'm going to have to spend all my time on constantly cleaning up after a hack or virus. Hell, one of the hacks I received forced me to format and reinstall the box due to the amount of damage done by the hacker. That was a real pain in the ass since there was 250 high level sites on that box. Those sites....well, were obviously removed from NT servers after that hack and had no downtime since.
This little "unfixable security flaw" has simply forced me to step up my conversion process. Within the next 6 months there won't be one single Windows server left on my network and quite frankly, it makes me happy to say/do that.
While they try to force me (and other NT users) to upgrade, they've successfully forced me to do so, just not the way they wanted to. The first time this problem happens to one of my machines will be the instant it's brought up long enough to pull the data off it.
I don't believe service pack 6 for NT4 was available in 96 - and if we're going to compare apples to apples, instead of oranges - since Linux development is all a matter of applied patches. With a similar twist, I could say I'm running a Linux system that's, what?, 10 years old.
"The correct word is viruses, not virii."
Depends on whether you're thinking in English or Latin. Even so, "virii" would not be correct in either case. Virus: poison. Poisons: viri.
Dunno where the doubled "i" comes from, but I wish it would go back there.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
What about certification? I mean when 2K came out there were a lot of complaints about how if you failed the Win2K test you had to start over. Does this mean it will be the same with 2k3? If so that means people who want to keep the cert get to shell out another few hundred to about a grand on books , classes and teting.
SuDZ
Someone posted that you cannot make 2003 server look like XP. Actaully yes you can, the themes service is disabled by default. You can enableit and select the XP theme.
oh, I thought he was just throwing numbers out his ass, because linux is most certainly not a multi-billion dollar industry. Show me statistics that say so, and I'll "eat crow"
Anonymous Cowards - Oh God, How I hate you
3/4 water
1/12 dead bacteria
1/12 cellulose, fiber
1/12 cholesterol, phospates, live bacteria, dead cells, intestine mucus, proteins
All values aprox. more info about its composition here
I'm a chainsmokin' alcoholic sociopath, so-ci-o-path
That's a real PRODUCTIVITY ENHANCEMENT right there, - 5 min X N , every time I want to change somehting on my goddamned machine.
As far as how this applies to Microsoft, why the hell are they putting a damn GUI on a SERVER anyway? That just makes it harder to script it or remotely admin it. Stupid ONE USER, ONE MACHINE, LOCAL DESKTOP paradygm! These guys are going at things ass-backwards and getting the expected results.
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
I know I should not feed trolls, but..
The fascist is the one who is (and has been for 50) going around starting wars to furthur its international political and business interests.
Oh, you mean France in Indo-China and Africa?
The fascist is the one who brainwashes its public into thinking that if they remotely disagree with the government they are siding with the evil enemy.
Hello? Saddam has people thrown into shredding machines, and kills entire families because they dare to say his clothing does not match. Castro did a raid the other night and imprisoned about a hundred people who "dared remotely disagree" with him.
The fascist is the one whose most popular news networks show heavily biased information.
Most "facist" places have only one new network.. and that one network never criticizes the government. Have you ever heard of Pravda? It means "truth" in russian. Sheesh.
The fascist is the one who uses his religion to justify killing people, while condemning people for doing exactly the same.
I missed the part where we had rallies and wore headbands that said "Kill Arabs". Could you provide a link?
The fascist is the one who condemns 'terrorism' but goes and does exactly that. (heard anything about this 'shock and awe' thing over the last few days? you dont think that's the same thing? go and look up the definition of terrorism.)
Wow. Have our soldiers been executing prisoners? Going around out of uniform? Pretending to surrender and then shooting? How about parking next to hospitals, and using kids for sheilds?
The fascist is the one whose government actively admits [newamericancentury.org] that they want their nation to be leader of the world, and that this action is just a stepping stone in that process.
Are we talking about about those peace loving mullahs, who rant about finding jews behind trees and rocks and killing them?
I tried beta 2 and it crashed every third or fourth time I opened Windows explorer. All in all it looked okay, but it was about as stable as Margo Kidder.
Topic says it all.. It only adds bloat and security holes..
A server doesnt need a native local GUI as webpage based managment tools is more then enough, and more flexable... or the diehards can just use text..
---- Booth was a patriot ----
i think we finally shipped the "ruby and emerald encrusted adamantium with oak leaves first class" version.
2 1337 4 u!
Okay, maybe this can be explained in simple terms, you see, 1970 is over, and people use these things called a mouse to work on this thing called a computer, in this case it's called a server.
And guess what, it makes the server easier to work with, it reduces the learning curve for new admins and lets people do more. It also takes away a lot of crypic command line programs that the average server admin used to have to remember.
And I have news for everyone who wants to revisit the good old days of the CLI:
EVERY CRITICAL COMMAND IS AVAILABLE FROM THE COMMAND LINE.
Yes, you can't browse the web from the CLI, and you might not be able to set your mouse settings, but want to add a user to the server? Yes, you can do that, you can add a web server, start and stop any service and most drivers, add a virtual directory to a virtual web server, sure, you can do that. Want to change your domain policy settings, CLI tool for that too.
The world is moving on, a GUI on a server is a good thing, it reduces headaches in the long run. Yes, I use the CLI a lot, sometimes it's just faster, but the GUI is by far the better interface for day to day admin work. And anyone who says you cant administer a Windows 2000 server from the command line, never bothered to try.
Sorry, but you are trying to make it out as though this *has* to be a matter of good vs. bad. It isn't. Both sides have their faults. Saddam is particularly bad, I don't think Labrat was denying that. But in their own ways, most of the hawks in the US administration are also pretty bad.
So your ranting about Saddam is completely irrelevant, and doesn't take anything from LabRat's argument at all.
So this means that we'll see it up on the warez sites by this weekend?
Straight from the horses' mouth: http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2003/mar0 3/03-28WNS2003RTMpr.asp
"the NT 4 that is so broke it can't be fixed -- Microsoft is hoping for quick adoption." I don't think they will ever release anything that isn't broke
No probably not. But then again, neither will Sun, Redhat, Novell, or anybody else. All software has bugs, or had them at one time, so all software is broken in at least one respect. There are very, very few exceptions. I can't really think of any off-hand that don't.
(Score: -1, Stupid)
There are *3* service packs for Windows 2000, not 6. Do some research (http://www.microsoft.com/windows2000/downloads/se rvicepacks/default.asp) next time instead of taking a random guess.
mcox.com - Useful Information re: IT, Running, Fitness, Finance, or Ann Arbor!
Uh, upon release, did MS not admit that Windows 2000 had an estimated 65,000 bugs left?
I know of one pre-SP1 bug that effected me immediatly out of the box, quirky USB mouse support, random crashes. Oh joy.
Need help treating your acne? Come here!
Jeepers creepers, you post is so right & depressing I think I just want to stay in bed.
I'm afraid that in making my point I got caught up in the semantics of 'fascism'. But you know what I mean. I think we're both reading from the same page.
Malike Bamiyi wanted my assistance.
Nah, actually, I think the guy is gin-u-wine...unless M$ has finally realized that a little self-deprecation (microsoft does lack the vibrant communinty projects) would help the credibility of their 'turfers. Like that's actually going to happen tho.
Let's not let the 'turfers win. If we assume that anyone with an opposing viewpoint is 'turfing, we lose the ability to actually discuss, and M$ wins anyway.
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
(Basically, what's in it for me ?)
Just a though, but Gold could have been from Vinyl master. Who where pressed too like CD.
65000 bugs sounds like a lot. Hell, it is a lot. But there are a HELL of a lot of lines of code in Windows 2000. We deployed Windows 2000 Pro in our office before SP1 was out and we didn't have a single issue. Most computers have USB mice, too. I just get tired of the same old rhetoric "don't use Windows until SP1".
Well it's been a "hot" topic with Microsoft for a while now, it's interesting to see that they are actually going to go ahead with this thing (I mean this isn't the first time this type of security was built into an os/operating system, and you don't see any more of THAT stuff still around do you? What failed once is doomed to fail again)
Though windows having this isn't the concern I would raise. So fine Windows now has another stike against it, and my ancient copy of Civilization(first version) no longer works because it's not signed by Microsoft (but the emulation layer is there, and it works wonderfully!) and I must sell my soul to make any useful program work, etc.
What CONCERNS me is when this stuff starts making it into hardware. This is when MS could start making a power grab at being even more monopolistic than before. Right now they just make HUGE suggestions on what hardware should be around in say 5 years. If the pall stuff was in hardware they could effectivley squeeze out every that wasn't MS or a current uptodate OS[read: that they have made you pay for it in the last 10 minutes] , etc. It would be a sad day when it gets to that point, because it's not even the government who has taken our liberty away..... it's a monopolistic company, and our only hope [obi-won?] is that Apple doesn't fall prey to that mess, and we can still run linux on mac hardware.
An experimental Python for .NET with full source and a whitepaper from our friends at ActiveState.
nbiar
My best friend is a Buddhist and she is very open-minded with regards to religions other than her own.
-uso.
Dreams, dreams, don't doubt dreams, dreaming children's dreaming dreams. Sailor Moon SS
Of course you can.
Its called Windows + Cygnus + Lynx. Cygnus is also a good way to make a Windows server more friendly to admins who like the GNU environment, increase interoperability with UNIX platforms, and do some admin of the Windows server with XFree86 is you so desire.
perl -e 'print $i=pack(c5, (41*2), sqrt(7056), (unpack(c,H)-2), oct(115), 10)'
But why the color (or element) gold in particular? I always thought it was called "gold" because that was when the first CD-RW was burnt to make the pressed CDs out of. You know, since the dye in the first CD-R discs had a metallic yellowish tint. Just a guess.
I was talking more about a default configuration. I've used lynx several times, neat program. I know there are other text browsers out there as well, but lynx is the most well known.
Or perhaps Pyrite.
(though I know that's not an element)
Ita erat quando hic adveni.
1) Single Machine: On the windows update page, click Personalize Windows Update and remove all the crap you don't want to run anymore.
:-)
2) In a network enviroment:
a) Install SUS on a server
b) Make a GPO that installs AutoUpdates to your servers.
c) SUS downloads fixes from MS.
d) AutoUpdates installs fixes from SUS (after admin approval)
e) Never use windows update again.
www.christopherlewis.com
Windows SSDD scheduled to be forced on their customers? :)
-Cnik
I keep hearing this argument. Have you ever called Microsoft Support? I've never gotten one question answered. Yet, I can jump into #linux on dalnet or any of the comp.os.linux newsgroups and have answers in minutes, for free. Where is this Microsoft Tech support that makes the product so much more viable?
- "That's just the kind of fuzzy-headed liberal thinking that leads to being eaten."
Could it be that the "unfixable" NT bug may have influenced the decision to say that Server 2003 was good enough? Perhaps not fixing some "minor" bugs til later?
Trouble, a mistake or fun, your choice
In this upside down world software that does not break is doomed, and the only products that have a real future are those that include significant flaws. Revenue is obtained by convincing the purchasing public that new versions of software fix all the problems. Such a fantasy.... New versions, new problems, never versions to fix the new problems, billions for Bill....!!!
I think you are off by a few versions. I believe it was supposed to read: WIndows 640 K, because who would ever need a higher verison? -Iowa
"He who laughs last, didn't get the joke."-Cap
MS Lawyer - Your Honor, I'd like to bring to your attention Exhibit A (Win NT EULA).
Judge - Case dismissed... Plaintiff, you may cover the court's costs.
Come and see the violence inherent in the system!
-c
I have discovered a truly remarkable proof which this margin is too small to contain.
Why would you use Cygnus to run Lynx on a win box when there are plenty of ports already?
Do not fold, spindle or mutilate.
40 more updates and 183 security patches to go and we'll also have useable Windows code.
Flamebait or Troll, take your pick
-uso.
Dreams, dreams, don't doubt dreams, dreaming children's dreaming dreams. Sailor Moon SS
Just another example how MS forces you to continue shelling-out more cash as time goes by. The timing for this is just a little too perfect it seems (like 2 days?) to say that MS did not discontinue support for NT4 in preparation for the release of Server 2003. Now, companies using NT4 are almost forced to buy the upgrade even when I'm sure NT4 works according to Microsoft's high standards of quality in other areas. This is another example of Microsoft's profit-motivated engineering working for them and against everyone else. Just wait 10 more years...
Now here's an idea macroshafties will love... *roll-eyes*
Windows in ROM!
Now there's a surefire way to prevent competition. *sigh*
-uso.
Dreams, dreams, don't doubt dreams, dreaming children's dreaming dreams. Sailor Moon SS
"Upcoming updates include: ...Windows Rights Management Services (RMS), a security enhancement;
For whom, exactly, would this be a "Security enhancement"?
"
In Soviet Union Russia RMS protects itself from YOU!
Oh shit wait a minute.....
http://saveie6.com/
the probablity of windows 2003 going gold is the same as the probability of me finding a girl in 2003 that would go south on me
my blog
Yep, I miss the good old days when we got our software delivered at 45 rpm, and my-lame-app "Professional" just does not sound as good as LP.
The RC2 versions on MSDN earlier today have been replaced by the final builds. It's not mentioned on the homepage anywhere, but it's up. Looks like CNet got it right - there's no announcement anywhere I've looked, but those who pay UKP1700 per developer per year for the privilege of developing for the Windows platform can now download it. And then post it on Kazaa :)
Sam: System crashes when you hit Enter at the wrong time?
Bob: Check.
Sam: System spends more time booting up then running?"
Bob: Check.
Sam: System crashes and loses your data at exactly the moment that you need it most?"
Bob: Check.
Sam: Whew... That's the last of the 3,400 check inspection. Mark that thing gold and let's get some beer.
Yeah... I can see that. Because at Microsoft, if it doesn't start out as a buggy piece of garbage and go downhill from there, it's not good. (Remember, if your software doesn't say Microsoft, it's not the real thing.)
It will only cost you $7,999 to get terminal server to work over that complex thingy called the internet. ( that is in addition to the OS fee and CAL fees ).
Pushing your system to the max and changing the voltage while it's running are two entirely different things. I push my system to the max, I have it overclocked well beyond anyone I know, and it's very stable. I flashed my firmware on my lite-on burner turning it from 32 to 48x, change settings, and play with it all the time. I wouldn't classify myself as a lite user. However pulling a drive out, while it's spinning, to call yourself hardcore is absurd, of course it's going to damage it, turning a windows pc off enough times will corrupt your registry because of the way it's paged in your ram, things get erased that are being written in real-time, there's a reason, and doing it, knowing the reasons why it'll fail is retarded. The only time it's safe to pull a drive out is on a nice Raid-5 array, there is a chance the drive you pull will die, but the data will still be intact on your other drives, that aren't dead. If you're going to be such a hard-core (l)user you should become a little more familiar with your system.
--fetch daddy's blue fright wig, i must be handsome when i release my rage
that's all i've got to say, bro. A-fucking-MEN.
"... I declare our city to be a free and independent state to be named Tri-Insula!" --Fernando Wood, Mayor of NYC 1861
GnuWin32 provides Win32 (MS Windows 95 / 98 / ME / NT / 2000 / XP) ports of tools with a GNU or similar open source licence.
Whenever you see those words on Slashdot, it implies that Win 2003 Compact Disks or DVDs are going to be stamped at a factory from a set of master disks. Going gold does not mean they sold anything!
;x
Oh well, every post prior to this one doesn't realize this
Cover your eyes and click this link!
Yes, it IS being released. I work for a company that helped to put on the release party on friday afternoon. Lots of drinking. They had a mock CNN announcement about MS stocks going up and their competitor's sliding and gave away amusing awards as well. They even bashed a car up with the Sun Microsystems logo on it. Judging from the party I can see now that they are correct when they say Microsoft has more money than they know what to do with. Man I'm sore from yesterday...time for sleep...
Using a Microsoft Intelimouse w/InteliEye 1.0 USB, hard lock. Frequently.
Example of some of the inane bugs SP1 fixed
(source)
Q263116 Slow DirectX Performance in Windows 2000
Q260919 Disk Defragmenter on FAT32 Volume Hangs with Long Path Names
Q252500 Ntbackup.exe May Cause 100 Percent Central Processing Unit Utilization
Q260929 Cannot Enable Local Area Connection After Placing Computer in Hibernate Mode
Q257991 FTP Service May Not Time Out Inactive Sessions
Q255569 Access Violation When Running the Network Identification Wizard (heh, always fun. . . )
Q260360 FIX: Virtual Machine May Cause a Deadlock
Q258061 Access Violation in Windows 2000 Print Spooler
Note that Windows 2000 STILL do this day has fucked up printing from parrell port printers
(100% CPU utilization!). Microsoft ACKNOWLEDGES this error and their suggested fix is to BUY A NEW PRINTER.
Q262490 Error Message: Memory Could Not Be Read...
Q258817 Memory Leak in Lsass.exe in Windows 2000
Q265829 Add\Remove Programs Tool May Not Work After Installing Internet Explorer 5.5 on Windows 2000
Not that SP2, and the ever awaited SP3 don't have their OWN fair share of bugs.
And if I had a buck for every time I had to reboot a XP machine. . . . well ok I'd only have like 20 dollars or so, but considering the only XP machine I ever touch is over at my friend's house. . .
heh.
Need help treating your acne? Come here!
Bloat is bloat. Its all about giving your bloated admins the flavor of CLI bloat they need to get the job done and manage the server effectively, and keep services available for bloated users.
<sarcasm>Everything was so simple, streamlined, and scaled so effortlessly when until those lousy users were allowed to get their dirty little paws all over the interweb.</sarcasm>
perl -e 'print $i=pack(c5, (41*2), sqrt(7056), (unpack(c,H)-2), oct(115), 10)'
How did the term 'facism' come to mean any kind of distastefull behaviour?
Please, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but AFAIK the term 'facism' comes from the 'faci', Mussolini's special police who went around beating up dissenters and shouting pro-goverment slogans in the streets.
Now we can definitely say that this type of organisation exists in Iraq, but for the Americans, all of their secret police are in countries outside the USA (although recent events seem to suggest begginnings of a 'faci' inside the US too).
When the CIA deposed the democratically elected Government of Iran, and installed the Shah, they helped the Shah to create a secret police that arrested, tortured and murdered thousands of people. They set up the same type of organisation in Chile, Cuba, Guatemala and many other countries as well.
So, at this moment in history, you couldn't really say the United States Goverment is a facist organisation INSIDE THE UNITED STATES. That really only occurs in small countries unfortunate enough to appear on the US's economic (oil, resources) or Cold War (location) radar. Then what occurs could definitely be described as facism, only most Americans don't get to hear about it.
just my 1.19 US cents
>>
I am the director, and this is my movie
Ok. Combine DRM with planned OS obselesence. Even though NT4 is supposed to EOL in June, this looks much like a breach of contract [microsoft.com] at worst and a complete faux pas at best. The "Who are you going to count on in 5 years?" question is sure answered. It sure shows that the Linux distros provide better support.
Moving to Netware, OS X or to one of the OSS operating systems is really the sole option to avoid going into an expensive world of hurt.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
God, that's scary...
I can see why you'd post that anonymously.
"I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"