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Ohio Wants eBayers to Post $50k Bond
MacDork writes "CNNMoney posted a short article this morning about new Ohio regulations set to become effective May 2 this year. If you are in the state and selling on eBay, you will need to pay $200 for a license and post a $50,000 bond or face possible fines and jail time. Getting the license also requires a one-year apprenticeship. When asked to which eBay users this bill applied, the bill's author, Larry Mumper responded with these very specific guidelines.... "It certainly will not apply to the casual seller on eBay, but might apply to anyone who sells a lot.""
Will this do anything to stop scammers?
No.
Will this be a HUGE burden and inconvienence on the honest?
Yes.
Governments so often believe they can wave a piece of paper and behavior stops. Just like gun control, this will never stop a scammer but will punish the honest.
Corporatism != Free Market
that Ohio has diligent politicians who are intent on making their laws clear and precise.
come on what a junk bill if they can not answer what a lot is, this bill should have never been passed
Something about the Interstate Commerce Clause might get congress, or at least the judcial branch involved. How long until the first lawsuit to stop, or at least clarify, the law?
...but why does this affect anyone other than eBay? TECHNICALLY, they are doing the auctioning. You're just putting up your item for auction. Is it illegal for you to pay an auctioneer 500$ to have them auction off your house? How could this apply to the user? THEY aren't accepting bids - the software is, and the software was created by and managed by eBay. The user isn't auctioning a damn thing, they're having ebay do it for them.
...aren't they?
I am really not too wirried though. Legislatures are not stupid (although some may seem it) and this will likely get voted down asap. Considering the direct implications on ebay, well, I wouldn't be suprised if some "additional support" got waived the direction of Ohio from e-bays generous contributors.
Physics is nothing like religion. If it was, we'd have an easier time trying to raise money!
Another victory for legislated state capitalism! .. mmm slush funds...
I'm sure the revenue from this for the state will find its way into some slush fund
either that or yahoo bribed the right officials..
...and a good match for other Ohio laws that mandate tickets for people who "go real fast" and jail for people who "do bad stuff."
The only acceptable defense of scientific results is to say that they were the product of the Scientific Method.
Why would you have to apprentice as an auctioneer to sell something where the auction portion is run by someone else. This seems akin to making people on the Antiques Roadshow take auction classes and an apprenticeship before they can have Sotheby's auction their items. Is this really a way to back into a tax?
So does Ohio intend to only apply this to Ohio residents selling to Ohio residents? Otherwise, a pesky little clause in the Consistution will come into play.
The force that blew the Big Bang continues to accelerate.
Did you read the summary? It stated that "It certainly will not apply to the casual seller on eBay, but might apply to anyone who sells a lot." So the average seller isn't affected, unless the average person sells a lot of stuff. And in my book, a casual seller is the average type of seller on eBay.
Fetch Text URL - Firefox Extension
I find it hard to believe that a company as large as eBay didn't bitch slap this yahoo (pun intended) down some time ago.
Makes you wonder, though.....where did this moron get his idea? These guys are usually "donated" into having an opinion or taking action. You got to follow the money....who is behind this?
"It certainly will not apply to the casual seller on eBay, but might apply to anyone who sells a lot."
So that means I can sell individual items, but not a lot of them?
Be relentless!
is also the jerk who is responsible for the so called "Academic Bill or Rights" and has called college professors communists. What a jerk.
FTA: Besides costing $200 and posting a $50,000 bond, the license requires a one-year apprenticeship to a licensed auctioneer, acting as a bid-caller in 12 auctions, attending an approved auction school, passing a written and oral exam. Failure to get a license could result in the seller being fined up to $1,000 and jailed for a maximum of 90 days.
and a school to become a licensed seller?
what if i go on a spree, and say, sell like 30 items that i've found in my basement over christmas break? does that constitute as someone who sells more than 'casually'?
sig: Playfully doing something difficult, whether useful or not
Email me your application for the license and I'll give you the PayPal account number to send your money to...
Windows isn't the answer... it's the question. NO is the answer!
i live right on the former side of the indiana/ohio border. i forsee many of my Buckeye friends coming to my house to post sales on eBay in the near future.
In TFA it says that it is not intended that the law apply to individuals, but to businesses.
That said, I can't see how this is anything other than a money-grubbing attempt by politicians keen to enhance their reputation by being on the "cutting edge".
Some politicians just cant cope with the fact that people can manage to run their lives without state intervention.
*--BigMan--- Time flies like an arrow.. but personally I prefer a nice glass of wine!
...I might get a license.
Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
What's up with the people who think this crap up, don't they have real work to do?
Nothing like driving your productive citizens and businesses out of state with higher taxes.
Larry Mumper is the chairman of the Agriculture Committee. I guess he's tired of people being scammed when they attempt to purchase cows and corn on EBay.
One shouldn't judge by looks, but it's hard not to in his case. Does he look like someone who has ever used EBay, or even knows how to spell EBay?
I'm a big tall mofo.
I seem to recall it being mentioned somewhere in the eBay terms and conditions that they aren't actually an auction service.
Ph-nglui mglw'nafh Gates M'dna wgah'nagl fhtagn.
Okay, I see their point... there are people out there doing business and that has to be regulated. While one might argue about that I won't.
What I don't understand is what exactely they try to accomplish with such... tremendous amounts of money... well beside killing off some hundred to thousand attempts at making a living. What exactely are they trying to regulate here? Employment numbers? Or unemployment numbers if you prefer?
I think it's a great idea to give eBay some legal ground so that it doesn't remain rip off mecca for some individuals out there but this is like killing a cockroach by dumping a nuke on it: Blatant overkill that, most probably, won't even work... at least IMHO.
This is just another snow job to dance around the Internet no-tax law. ...where is the ACLU on this??!...they must have been sleeping...
I see absolutely no reason why this bill should even exist! Unless it is some sort of sick money making scheme by part of the state. They are targeting ONE auction site, a specific company, and are charging insane/asinine amounts of money just to be an eBay seller, of which there are many. WTF
Did you read the summary?
Have you lived in the US long?
Any source of revenue a city/state/federal tax can draw on, it eventually will.
If the law doesn't very specifically exempt anyone that sells under, say, $10k per year on eBay, you can expect to hear about this getting badly abused about six months from now.
Or do you really consider your typical neighborhood pot dealer; eight year olds who throw a temper tantrum in school; or people who write zombie fiction - All terrorists?
People worry about the "slippery slope" of bad laws because they can and will get applied as broadly as The Powers That Be can apply them.
No ambiguity there.
Seriously, despite the certain risk of being modded down, Ohio has EVERY right to do this. If you open up a business in Ohio, it has a right to license you. That applies even if you set up your business in your house.
However, I certainly hope they clear up that vague definition before it's enacted!
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
Glad this guy uses legal terms like "a lot" when he briefs the press. No Mr. Mumper define "a lot." Mumper - "Well it is anything that is more than a little." No he didn't actually say that, but by god its plausible! I think this is a total crap move on the State's part and if they truly do define it (like anyone who sells more than 500 items a year...) then can't people just create a new account at sale number 499 and start over. (Yes it sucks because you have to build up your numbers again, but it would be a way to get around the bill possibly.)
News Reporters Make Tasty Polar Bear Treats!
Something about the Interstate Commerce Clause might get congress, or at least the judcial branch involved. How long until the first lawsuit to stop, or at least clarify, the law?
Interesting idea and the law is certainly too vague, but I don't see how this is an interstate commerce issue. Ohio is regulating (or overregulating) its own state's businesses. Its really no different than a local sales tax on restaurants, business license for retailers, etc. This would only become an interstate issue is Ohio required non-Ohio eBayers to register, pay tax, or put up a bond.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
I'm going to become an eBay Bond Enforcement Agent.
"Sir, I'm going to have to ask you to put down the FRESH!!! LIKE NEW!!!!!! set of Star Wars glasses and come with me. Don't make me spray you! This is what happens when you jump bond."
"Want in one hand and spit in the other and see which one fills up first." - My Dad
Insightful right up to the last sentence maybe.
Damn, I'll even burn some karma to say this.
Who knows what a "casual seller" is??? And if there is a person who is just above the limit there, do you think they will always be able to pay 50 big ones so they can keep selling? Everyone who isn't a millionare can't pay THAT much. That guy has wasted his time there, but it wouldn't be so much of a waste if he had actually come up with a plan that might WORK.
for all that unaccounted for money in the economy (you know, the largesse that if actually counted that would make the economy not seem to suck so much) it's only fair that we penalize them...
Acquiescence leads to obliteration
They're not expecting most average sellers to, but rather hoping that people like you who don't even RTFS (Summary), let alone legislation, will pay up and make them some free money.
And in the interest of high standards, it's rIdiculous. That has to be one of the most mispelt words on Slashdot.
Free Gamer - Free games list and commentary
Where's eBay during all this? It seems like they have a vested interest, and this is one of those rare cases where a little bit of lobbying can do some good. Ebay should really look to squash bills like this quickly before they catch on in other states.
This is most likely to try and get businesses that sell on ebay to stop trying to get around from paying taxes. Since taxes don't get added onto auctions like they do onto regular sales over the internet. At least I have never payed taxes for auctioned stuff, but buying something from another state always got me some sales tax on top of the shipping.
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Fucking Christ on a snack cracker, people. Maybe you fuckers should learn to spell shit right instead of making yourselves look 'rediculous' [sic]...
http://pages.ebay.com/help/basics/f-agreement.html #3
Frequently Asked Questions about the User Agreement:
Why is there a User Agreement?
Will the User Agreement change again?
What does "eBay is only a venue" mean?
Why can't I bid on my own item?
If I place a bid, how exactly am I obligated to the seller?
Why was one listing removed, while other similar items remain on the site?
How do I know if an item is potentially illegal or not?
What happens if someone violates the User Agreement?
How do I report a potentially illegal, infringing or fraudulent item?
What does Section 6.3 of the User Agreement regarding Your Information mean?
Does Section 7 prohibit me from using auction management software to track my personal transactions on eBay?
Does Section 7 prohibit me from discussing or linking to eBay on other websites?
What does Section 17 of the User Agreement regarding arbitration mean?
Search the Help System
Search for help on:
(e.g., what is a Reserve Price Auction?)
If you can't find an answer to your question here, Ask eBay.
Q.
Why is there a User Agreement?
A. The User Agreement is a legal document that spells out the relationship between you and eBay. It outlines the services, pricing, Privacy Policy, and the buyer and seller relationship for listing and bidding on items in eBay's auction format.
Q.
Will the User Agreement change again?
A. It may change periodically. When revisions are needed, changes will be posted on the site 30 days before taking effect. You also have the option to receive email notices of any revisions as they occur. To select this option go to the preferences page, by choosing Change my notification preferences under My eBay at Services.
Q.
What does "eBay is only a venue" mean?
A. eBay is an exciting electronic marketplace where you can buy and sell to your heart's content. However, eBay does not ultimately participate in the transaction between buyer and seller, verify that items are genuine, or guarantee that you will receive payment or auction items. eBay is very concerned about your safety and offers the services of third parties that can provide authentication, insurance, and escrow for your transactions.
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
Perhaps a lawsuit against the state of Ohio, by an out of state person, who was "harmed" by not being able to buy from the Ohio market... use the dormant commerce clause against the law...
"In order to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe." -- Carl Sagan, Cosmos
"It certainly will not apply to the casual seller on eBay, but might apply to anyone who sells a lot."
I hope a $50k fine won't be based on such a broad and vague definition !
Sig (appended to the end of comments you post, 120 chars)
Read the article:
In other words, the lawmakers are NOT attempting to target eBay/eBay users with this law. The law is there only to make sure auctioneers are obeying other Ohio laws regarding auctions. eBay already attempts to enforce the law by shutting down illegal auctions or whatever, so it is VERY unlikely that Ohio lawmakers will need to empose this law onto eBay sellers.
Would this law make it illegal to have an auctioneer auction off some of your property for you? NO! This would only affect someone acting as an auctioneer.
It will, however, be interesting to see if they try to apply this law to ebay, as they (their software) does act as an auctioneer. A $50,000 bond would be a drop in the bucket for ebay, but I'm not sure if the $200 is per auction or a one-time fee for the license.... That could be interesting.
- Think for yourself, question authority.-
My family is slowly preparing to move to another house in the next few years, and one thing we're doing is getting rid of stuff, since it'll be a smaller house. One thing I planed to do was put all my old collector toys on ebay to get some money out of them (some of those junky old toys sell really nicely). I've never used ebay before but I'd probably be going into the more than casual user group really quick with some of the stuff I have.
This is not a bad step to take. It really won't apply to the casual seller. The point is to provide some protection if the consumers get screwed by a business that is using auctions as the main method of business. The law itself is also directly aimed at real auction houses, not just eBay.
And, as a spokesperson from eBay said:
What about a hundred other similar online auction systems? All the e-bay competition?
Don't you think now E-bay can sue the state for serious anti-competitive practices that will prevent people from using their services and make them move to the competition instead?
I guess the estimate loss would be of several billions or more.
Hey, Ohio'ans, prepare for a tax hike, the state will have to pay the damages...
Anagram("United States of America") == "Dine out, taste a Mac, fries"
Unless it is SPECIFICALLY spelled out with a yearly income level generated by ebay auctions then this will apply to ALL ebay sellers in Ohio.
I strongly urge evbery Ohioian to write to their reps and ask that it be struck down until it is reworded to have very specific definitions.
these broadly worded laws, espically STATE laws are designed only to generate extra income for the state and to allow them to extort money out of it's citizens.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
I hope Ohio nails BuyEssex, DakMart, sell2all and a few others... it's early in the morning.
Laws are for people with no friends.
It says the effect on eBay was accidental, but now that it has come up, they want to regulate people who use eBay as a business (not necessarily with this law). So, nothing really to see here for the normal user, please move along and stop sending the hate mail...
I'm sure the verbal auction calling will be very useful on Ebay... or, how many words per minute must you type, or will that be a license requirement too?? I'm thinking that while the intentions of the original law were honorable, I think it's been used as an opportunity to do what governments love to do... find something that they haven't taxed yet, and tax it. I mean, come on, we can't have somebody make a little income cleaning out their closets/ hitting yardsales and turning a small profit on Ebay, can we? Just think about how this is leaving the 'legitimate' secondhand stores in ruin!!! I can see it now... : Ohio Passes Walking in Public License Requirements
RTFA folks:
The law was not intended by its author to apply to online auctions. It was intended for people running 'live' auctions. The author of the law is working to get it corrected.
Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence.
You didn't read the article. It's actually more a law for Auctioneers and not buyers and sellers. In fact, I have read the law and don't see how it can apply at ALL to eBay users. I think the reason the quote was spoken was due to the law's author not knowing the impact of the law and fully understanding how eBay and eBayers do business.
You'll have that sometimes...
This is great! I may move to Ohio. You have got love the udder ridiculousness of this entire bill, but it would be fun to go to Auctioneer school. I wonder if they teach you the different styles; fine art auctioneer, car auctioneer, farm equipment auctioneer (this one comes with a straw hat and corn cob pipe). You may learn tips on how to auction some old ladies house off, you know the one she has lived in for 75 years and missed one tax payment. This is good stuff. You may learn how to auction off family heirlooms of the bereaved, because the dearly departed owed the bank a little to much. This could be huge!
My sigs offend the max # of people all over the world, regardless of race, religion, color, sex or creed. It's a gift.
At least they're trying to do something. Ebay has become such a massive fraud pit that even politicians are noticing. I like what they're trying to do, but this may not be the right thing to do. Perhaps a simple class-action lawsuit for fraud against Ebay would have been a better alternative. Either way, "normal" people are being scammed by the hundreds every day on eBay, and obviously, with the amount of fraud and the fact that it keeps happening indicates that "normal" people do need some kind of legal protection from using eBay.
Regardless of whether I agree or not with the taxation itself, I can definitely see the state having a point here.
The illustrious Senator Mumper is also one of the authors of Senate Bill 24 our Orwellianly titled "Academic Bill of Rights" designed solely to restrict academic freedoms. It's a good thing Ohio isn't facing any real issues (say, a budget crisis for example) and he has time to concentrate on these important matters. Oh, wait.....
As someone with firsthand knowledge, I know this law was not enacted by the General Assembly to cause undue harm to those individuals selling on eBay. It is not intended to be some scheme to curb scams and other problems on eBay.
The Bill was drafted to address several concerns with the Auctioneering industry in Ohio. With Agriculture being the States #1 industry, this bill was intended to address issues with livestock auctions more so than an eBay auction.
If by chance the rules that are propagated from this legislation by the Department do ensnare some eBay sellers, it is likely that they will only be the ones that make a business out of auctioning items on eBay.
As far as interstate commerce, this bill would not violate interstate commerce clauses. Every state can regulate an industry's practices within its borders. Just because an Ohio eBay seller is auctioning items on the internet doesn't mean that they are now somehow exempt from Ohio Regulations because the purchaser might be out of state.
After this are they going to come to your garage sale and beat you merciless until you give them a % of that couch you been holding in your garage the last 10 years?
Seriously, like another poster said, doesn't this clown have anything better to do? I live in Michigan, I've been to Ohio many times, there's definetly more pressing issues that I'm sure the people of Ohio would rather address than putting and 2nd mortgage on the stay at home mom's home who sells her homemade candles on ebay to make ends meat because her husband's factory job just got shipped overseas so some 11 year old kid can do it for 18 hours a day. Oops.
If you can't and won't regulate the crminals at eBay and PrayPal just tax the hell out of it.
Furthermore, there is a forum spellchecker available for free for Mozilla and Firefox. Use it for your next Slashdot post, or at least for the subject of your next Slashdot post.
# cat
Damn, my RAM is full of llamas.
I live in Ohio and this was covered on local NPR or some other newsource a few days ago. As written, it can be interpreted to apply to casual sellers on Ebay. But the authors state that it is not the intent, and that it will be modified to exclude casual sellers before it goes into affect.
Here we go again. Someone (the government in this case) sees another way to seperate you from your money. And because it is the government, they can do it legally (they do issue the laws, don't they?).
Ohio isn't alone in their grab for money. In Virginia, you are supposed to report all online transactions, and pay the proper income tax (to the state) for anything you buy online. Needless to say, few Virginia citizens even know of this 'law', and fewer still honor it. That said, a friend of mine was busted by the commonwealth when he bought a large ticket item. He had to pay up bigtime.
So what are the chances of being caught (either in Ohio for not having an E-bay license, or in Virginia for buying online)? Right now, the chances of getting caught are between slim and none. Do these states have the resources to find the perpetrators of these dastardly crimes? I doubt it. They will get a few violators, but only a small minority.
So it all goes back to the pork-barrel legislatures who have huge appetites for income, but no common sense on how to procure it.
This Ohio plan will not work. I wouldn't be surprised if it shows up on CNN and Ohio becomes the laughing stock of the country.
'nuff said.
Ebay fraud is out of hand, and ebay itself is doing nothiong to stop it. They offer no insurance to anyone against fraud and are not willing to cut their profits to force people to use - for example - an escrow system. And why would they? Anything they do will cut into their profits.
But auctions ahve existed a lot longer than the internet. Why doesn't Christies have the same problems with fraud? Because real world auction houses are regulated. There are laws that protect buyers and sellers.
Since an online auction is done entirely by internet and post, the laws don't apply. Ohio has made a bold step in writing new laws for the new age. We should applaud them for thinking ahead.
maybe the term powerseller will actually mean something now
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His insights are correct. And his insights on guns are correct as well.
Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
The primary author of the legislation, State Sen. Larry Mumper, told the paper the legislature never intended it to apply to individuals selling items over eBay. But Mumper, while vowing changes, couldn't say exactly who would or would not be exempt from the license requirement under any changes in the pending law.
The author of the legislation ( who does sound like a buffoon> says right there that this wasn't designed again ebay sellers... I was designed for normal B&M auctioneers.... I'm sure that our good friends in the government will be pai... change their mind soon enough....
I had no idea that sites like that existed. Lets hope that you're kidding and that you'll never be able to buy or make parts.
People that by lots of cigarettes have to pay lots of taxes in most states. The people that tried to sneak around the taxes only deferred the payment and made it one lump sum. I don't remember there being much (if any) fine, just back-taxes.
Not even really related to the current topic.
Exam 4/C again. Maybe I'll do better this time.
as if i dont pay enough in tax to this state already, now they want to charge me to get rid of my junk... what will they think of next? higher tax on beer... i'll move before that.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
They're highballing. The public will come back with "No, we want no regulation" and the politicians will settle somewhere in the middle, say a special online auction license where you pay a small percentage per year.
Then of course they'll use that as leverage in case they want to lean on sellers of particular items, especially around election time. "Look, my beloved voters, I signed the law that would revoke online auction licenses for people selling {guns,porn}. Vote for me!"
_______
2B1ASK1
I have two family members in the antique business, and I have a theory on why this is happening.
Neither of them live in Ohio, but used to come to Ohio all the time for antique auctions, Ohio and the midwest in general has a fair number of these. They don't come here anymore, they prefer to buy/sell on Ebay, better selection and better prices.
I haven't been to an auction for several years, but I suspect they draw they crowds they used to. I'm sure the Ohio auction businesses have lobbied hard for this, to try and "recoup lost revenue". This bill has protectionism written all over it.
We have the worst governor in the country. Gray Davis has nothing on Bob Taft.
Just recently he's imposed a new tax that will require everyone to pay to use state parks. As taxpayers, aren't they our parks to begin with? He wants to take money away from schools that are already some of the worst in the country. The largest county in the state is down to one of the smallest sheriff departments due to cuts. Yet he spent $2 million on a bicentennial party?
He's got two years left to pulverize the economy and the rest of the taxpayers.
If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
...that despite the fact that there's potential doubleplusungood here, a $50,000 bond can probably be bought for a lot less than $50,000? Kind of like all those bad guys release on a bail bond; you don't really think they come up with $50-big, right?
--Jim (me)
Excellent idea. Bad for the starter upper. 50K is kinda steep.
Of course they won't hassle the casual seller to begin with, but after they see how much money is coming in, they WILL extend the law to include everybody who sells. Government's addiction to your money knows no bounds.
Whenever a law is voted on, the first thing to consider is how it will work when taken to the extreme.
Well, that's exactly what TFA says. Unfortunately, very few of the posters before you appear to have read it.
Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
I bet you can pick up one of those bonds on ebay for $20, so long as you don't mind it on a CD-R. Of course, the licence conditions mean you have to buy a senator at the same time.
_O_
.|< The named which can be named is not the true named
> You didn't even Read The Fucking Summery, let alone TFA. [...] Furthermore, there is a forum spellchecker available for free for Mozilla and Firefox. Use it for your next Slashdot post, or at least for the subject of your next Slashdot post.
Practice what you preach, I say.
I just do not get it.. I mean, the internet is a big place, you can be selling in the US and living in Kabul. I mean, if this is supposed to go for business (that are based in Ohio), what would stop these business to just opening a branch in, say, anywherer else but Ohio and then still sell as usual?
Secondly, if this is intended for the regular Joe, what would stop him from asking his brother who lives in anywhere else but Ohio from selling the stuff for him, or hey, what would stop ME who lives in europe from being the person putting the stuff on sell on Ebay for people in Ohio against a fee lower than the proposed by the law?
Anyhow, the result will be the same, less business in Ohio.
Excellent.
"Hani Durzy, eBay spokesman, said the company has reviewed Ohio's law and is not concerned.
'We do not believe the law applies to people who sell items on eBay or to eBay itself,' he told the paper."
Oh, yeah. Like his *belief* has any bearing whatsoever on how the law will actually be enforced.
This law is an open invitation for governmental and citizen abuse.
Let's say I'm a prominent government official or, worse, I am *not* a prominent government official but know someone who is. Now as an Ohio resident you just happen to sell something on eBay just *once* and I know about it. You did something to really annoy me and a dedicated (read as: threatened, bribed, or owned) prosecutor from any juris-my-dick-shun in the great state of Ohio takes you to court over it. Now you have to defend yourself. And even if the case could be dismissed as meritless, you would still have to come up with a plausible explination as to why the law should not apply to you in this specific instance (hope that the judge is not in anyone's pocket too, by the way).
Or, worse yet, some yahoo citizen bought something from you (the seller in Ohio) and is greatly displeased for (insert reason here) and files a civil suit on the basis of the law in Ohio. Now not only do you have to defend yoursef but the standard of proof to get a verdict vs. you is lower (9 of 12 jurors instead of 12 of 12).
Now I know that the odds of this kind of abuse are low and there are plenty of dumb laws on the books that are never enforced, but...
That doesnt mean we need another one.
P.S. now when you sell on eBay as an Ohio resident you can add a clause that you won't sell or ship to those with a user rating below "X" or a bad reputation to protect yourself from abuse.
uR iGn0ranc3, Their Power
Maybe I'm completely ignorant of the law and how banks work, but what's to stop people from playing the shell game and going to say, Michigan, Indiana, Kentucky or Pennsylvania(or elsewhere) to sell through a second party? All they'd truly have to do is set up a bank account in another state and find someone to act as a front. I suppose this might be a bit riskier than just selling it yourself since it gives the appearance of something illegal if they can follow the paper trail(if they can find it) - but it would certainly get around having to front bond and get licensed.
my mistake. If they did tax it, sell licences to deal, imagine the money they'd make.
This is the bill's author, and the best he can describe it is it "might apply to anyone who sells a lot"? Do laws this vague actually get passed?
Actually, most people can't run their own lives without state intervention. You'd never survive if the state didn't take care of you in some manner. That's the point of the state. You get a group of people together who are supposed to do things for the greater good of the people (that 'greater good' theoretically being indirectly defined by the people in our type of government) because it's easier to pool resources and centralize certain things like defense and transportation than to try and have everyone do their own private thing.
...the government's just trying to protect you. Right?
The problem, of course, is that the government doesn't want to stay small because being in government gives you certain powers to act. For a good long while people kept this in check by paying attention to what was going on. Post-WWII, however, this country became a haven for drug-addled, overprotected retards because "The Greatest Generation" didn't want their children growing up with the hardships they had to face down.
Now, sixty years later, we have a country full of emotional trainwrecks who think the world is theirs for the taking because every authority figure they've ever known has either
a) been nothing more than an overbearing, rigid authority figure worthy of little more than angry rebellious backlash
or, more likely,
b) been a wet piece of toilet paper that always wanted to make sure they felt good and were never "hurt" by things like, for example, valedectorians reminding them that some people are just smarter than others.
Now the place is filled up with characterless assholes who don't have the balls to stand up to their government and don't care enough about what it's doing to shut down the corrupt portions. So you get stupid shit like this because some asshole in Congress decided he was going to flex his political muscle and go for a money-grab. 90% of the people this affects aren't going to know until it's too late, 9% aren't going to care, and the remaining 1% will be scoffed at for speaking up against it because, after all...
And we'll see whether or not Congressman Asshole fixes his bill. I'm betting he sends an amendment to the floor that never goes anywhere or eventually dies in committee because nobody cares enough about it to do anything more than create the amendment to try and silence the critics. Even then, if the critics come back, the blame for the bill's death is so spread around that the suits can just point fingers at each other until the critics get so frustrated they give up.
And this is how American politics (don't) work.
Alito: A vote for Alito is a punch in the eye to put that bitch back in her place!
Remember, your future is in their hands ("and I have to eat with those hands, doc.")
From the Plain Dealer: http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ss f?/base/news/1109932227143740.xml
Vuja De: That sinking feeling that this is going to happen again. Often occurs in meetings with Product Managers.
We have a passel of state Reps I'd describe as "social right wingers" who put up stuff like death penalty legislation every term. They were behind the weapons bill: it was touted as making the law fairer by not leaving it up to individual sheriffs, but really it aimed at allowing more people to carry concealed guns. The bills these folks turn out seem to have been written by 10th graders who were unfamiliar with anything but the skeleton of the issue they're talking about, and they often have unintended consequences.
So, who is this guy?
Senator Larry A. Mumper, Ohio Senate Republican.
He's listed there as primary sponsor of a couple of other bills, including one that was presented as an "academic bill of rights for higher education." This bill was partly prompted by a story about a kid who wrote a "pro-America" paper and got a bad grade from his teacher... Oops, except the kid's paper was crap; he'd written a 1-page "report" that wasn't up-to-snuff, got a bad grade, and decided it was because he was patriotic that he'd been silenced. The bill itself reads like a wolf in sheep's clothing aimed at "protecting a plurality of opinion" by remaining neutral about crap like "intelligent design." It doesn't spell out how you'd decide when a topic was "controversial" -- gee, an ambiguity that could lead to unintended consequences.
Does this sound like exactly the sort of wingnut I'm seeing in Minnesota? I mean, this is a guy who says his law "might apply to anyone who sells a lot" and "If someone buys and sells on eBay on a regular basis as a type of business, then there is a need for regulation." "As a type of business"? No ambiguity there, is there?
"Fundamentalism" isn't about divine morality. It's about human authority.
...or were they just the only one to gain critical mass and leave competitors behind. Could an online auction competitor launch today, or would they sue you into oblivion?
I wonder if the legislator involved in passing this turd of a bill was either an antiques dealer or an auctioneer. These people see eBay as cutting into their business and have heavily lobbied in my state of NH to pass protectionist laws to save their own businesses, all under the aegis of protecting the customers from unscrupulous eBayers; a sweet set up for them if they manage it. Unravel The Gavel, mentioned in the article has letters relevant to this issue here: http://www.thegavel.net/soundoff.html#Dear%20Edito r,
James
The primary author of the legislation, State Sen. Larry Mumper, told the paper the legislature never intended it to apply to individuals selling items over eBay. But Mumper, while vowing changes, couldn't say exactly who would or would not be exempt from the license requirement under any changes in the pending law.
Then, don't put the bill forward, you bone-smoker. When I used to submit meaningless equations and notations to my Calculus teacher and couldn't explain them, I got an F.
FTFA:
The Cleveland Plain Dealer reported that the law, signed by Gov. Robert Taft on Feb. 1
This
Sounds like solid state level leadership to me!
If we aren't misinterpreting the scope of this law, it sounds like it was really poorly thought out. Why? Well, shouldn't it be E-BAY that has to secure the auctioneer's license and not me?
Think about it. If I had a dining room table and chairs that I wanted to get rid of at auction, I'd go out and hire a professional auctioneer to do it for me, right? Well, he's the one that needs to have a license, not me.
That's why we **HAVE** professional auctioneers in the first place, isn't it?
I'm just the dude getting rid of the stuff, and I'm paying him a fee to do it for me. That's the same relationship I have with Ebay - I don't run the auction, they do. I have to pay them for the service they provide in doing so.
The only thing this law would be good for is regulating the operators of auctioning web sites. Forcing me to get a license to sell off my dining room table at a local auction or online would be stupid and have no precedent. I mean, check me if I'm wrong, but
"Lawyers are for sucks."
- Doug McKenzie
I DO sell on ebay.
I sell part time, maybe 5 hours a week.
Last year I grossed almost $250 K...that's a quarter million!
Of that I took about 12 K in profit.
Ebay is NOT a very profitable place to operate anymore. People are NOT becoming rich....at least not often.
I can almost understand the $200 license...standard government fines....but why the classes/apprenticeship.
THe ENTIER point of ebay is that THEY are the auctioneer not you. You are simply the provider of the goods you don't actually participate the in auciton itself.
This law is stupid and will only drive income tax revenue from Ohio. I just thank god that I do not live in a state that is considering this.
Simply put, this (from the article) is Bad Law;
"Besides costing $200 and posting a $50,000 bond, the license requires a one-year apprenticeship to a licensed auctioneer, acting as a bid-caller in 12 auctions, attending an approved auction school, passing a written and oral exam. Failure to get a license could result in the seller being fined up to $1,000 and jailed for a maximum of 90 days."
Perhaps intentional, but nowhere in the article do I find one iota of purpose, let alone legitimate purpose, for this law. Presumably this is some warped view of Consumer Protection(tm). But it seems that this is more of a regulatory program for the State to bring in reveues where it thinks it is getting screwed. Pay close attention to the fact that they don't call this a 'tax'. Taxes are bad and Americans hate them. Hence a $200 fee and a $50,000 interest free loan is provided for the government.
If this works out (e.g. the State thinks it's successful) you can damn well expect an eBay Lite law, which does the same thing less the requirement for certifications for ordinary people who sell their one used iPod or other junk. The objective here is the bond and the license. The Lite version of the law would most likely entail a license only at a reduced price of $25 or some silly amount to start with.
Then other states follow. So write your politicians now (especially if you are in OH or a surrounding state). That'll allow them to bear in mind your thoughts when this sort of stuff comes to the table, rather than trying to convince them after they're already interested in the potential revenue stream.
Wealth is the product of man's capacity to think. -Ayn Rand
eBay is not an auction, it does not use methods used at a real auction. I will guess that most people here are familiar with the phrase "going once, going twice, sold to the...."
eBay is a swoop and grab. It's the only way to "win". You stake out your desired item and hold off on bidding till the last possible seconds and hope your bid gets applied and is the highest.
I'm sure that if this is enforced on anyone it will be decided VERY quickly that eBay, like uBid, where the "auctions" are timed, are not really auctions and therefore not covered by this law.
--JLockard - "Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps." - Emo Phillips
If no one has guns, no one gets to shoot people.
If the criminals obey these laws, then no one will get hurt.
These laws are based on the same fantasy - that we can stop people from breaking one law by passing another.
You might as well pass a law that says that scammers and murderers must come to the police station and turn themselves in. They're not going to do that either.
Yes!
I DO sell on ebay.
I sell part time, maybe 5 hours a week.
Last year I grossed almost $250 K...that's a quarter million!
Of that I took about 12 K in profit.
Ebay is NOT a very profitable place to operate anymore. People are NOT becoming rich....at least not often.
I can almost understand the $200 license...standard government fines....but why the classes/apprenticeship.
THe ENTIER point of ebay is that THEY are the auctioneer not you. You are simply the provider of the goods you don't actually participate the in auciton itself.
This law is stupid and will only drive income tax revenue from Ohio. I just thank god that I do not live in a state that is considering this.
Even for a regular seller on eBay, $50,000 is a lot of money. What do they expect, some lady who makes pottery to sell on eBay as her main source of income to take out a loan so she can do so?
- I got my free iPod and a free Nintendo DS....why not
Nothing to see here, please move a long...
What, me worry?
...Larry Mumper's close relative just opened a new "approved auction school" which is the only place in Ohio for you to receive your required eBay! license.
" A $50,000 bond would be a drop in the bucket for ebay,"
Not if it's per-registered seller.
And they are officially a venue as stated in their user agreement, meaning the seller is the one conducting the auction, although that might not stand up in court.
The fact that eBay wasn't considered is even more reason that this law shouldn't go into effect, it wasn't thought out at all.
Saskboy's blog is good. 9 out of 10 dentists agree.
I have somehow found myself stuck in this godforsaken swing state and am subject to the inaninties of Ohio's brand of Midwestern legislating. That said, I still vote and I pay taxes.
Not 5 minutes ago, I phoned Senator Mumper's office to let him know that I am EXTREMELY displeased with this piece of legislation. The person on the other end informed me that changes to Senate Bill 209 were being introduced today (Tuesday, 8 March), but I continued to explain the reason for my feelngs.
My two objections were that 1) this legislation on the face of it appears to conflict with Congress's Interstate Commerce Clause which prohibits states from enacting legislation that will impede commerce between the states, and 2) the software on eBay is what does the auctioning, not the seller, and so the seller is in fact a client of an auctioneer, not an auctioneer him or herself.
I also provided the receptioninst with my name, address, and phone number, and indicated that I will be writing a carrier mail letter to express my EXTREME DISPLEASURE with Senator Mumper's role in authoring this legislation.
Oh, and if you came to this post because of its subject line, here you go:
blog
Because how can you trust people, who write such shitty laws? If they can't think in advance about how this law applies to eBay, how can you trust them to modify it properly?
Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.
This bill will likely turn out to have been offered up at the behest of professional auctioneere. It is typical of the sort of business regulation whose primary purpose is to protect those already in business.
this is just a money making scam on the part of the State of Ohio. It doesn't protect consumers at all because business' on ebay (although I personally don't think they belong there) aren't the problem - it's the regular Joe Schmuk that doesn't follow through. I've stopped all business with ebay because of this. They do all this advertising but when it comes right down to it ebay exempts themselves from any and all problems people encounter by stating "we're just a conduit".
Why is it whenever someone says "Here goes my karma" and expects their karma to go down, everyone and anyone mods them up? But sure as hell, i say this and ill get -1 offtopic :P.
i 3 slashdot.
This doesn't apppear to be targeted at (large scale) ebayers, but ohio will have a rather interesting problem when it comes to electronic auctions: where does the auction really take place?
If someone lives in cincinnati and travels (every day, whenever) to KY and does *real* auctioning in kentucky (and doesn't auction in OH), does OH have any standing to 'regulate' or special tax this guy? probably not.
If someone lives in OH, has a Northern KY ISP including email and webspace (for hosting photos) that is located in KY (not a branch in OH), and even has a Northern KY postoffice box for collecting checks and money orders, the question becomes: where does the auction really take place, and OH may actually force the question of where transactions take place.
This is gonna be interesting.
eric
It appears to me as if eBay is the auctioneer here; since when do property owners have to be licensed auctioneers to have something auctioned?
It's like saying that you have to be a doctor or a nurse to go to the hospital.
Sorry to be way OT here but I wanted to let you know that I ran your sig command on CoLinux (under XP PRo) and my RAM suddenly had nothing in it (LOL -- it rebooted the machine!).
I report to Colonel 2.6.1 and General Chaos is his boss.
although even michael moore's bowling for columbine admitted that the canadians have more guns per houshold than the usa, yet they act civilised with them in their hands.
...than to post a spelling flame on /.
FYI: there's no such word as mispelt. It's mis-spelt or, if you're afflicted with the usual north-american hyphen-phobia, misspelt.
I guess today is a passable day to die.
Since the auctioneer is eBay, and they operate from the state of California, this would only affect people operating as an auctioneer IN Ohio.
If Ohio tries to apply this they'll be interfering in interstate commerce, which is Federal Law, not state. Quite a simple court case.
"The state of Ohio accusses eBay of operating as an Auctioneer."
"When were we operating from the state of Ohio, our servers are in California"
"But but but"
"Nice impression of a motor boat"
Bacardi + slashdot = negative karma.
As a longtime resident of the Peoples' Republic of Ohio, this doesn't surprise me in the least. With a fairly high state income tax, and even a 2% city income tax, this can only be seen as another source of revenue. Even though Congress has a moratorium on individual states taxing internet sales (outside the state) you are still required to declare an amount of purchases yearly on the state tax form...cause I'm the tax man, yeah..the tax man...
"...anyone who sells a lot." refers to the guy who stiffed one of the bill's author on the the discount "24" Season 1 DVD?
"Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
And in the interest of high standards, it's rIdiculous. That has to be one of the most mispelt words on Slashdot.
/.-ranking, though commonly - and this is where the geeks diifer - it is said to be among the 100 Most Often Misspelled Words in English
To even further improve standards I might add that "existance" is a much better candidate than "rediculous"
"Mispelt", though, is more at the end of the
CC.
TaijiQuan (Huang, 5 loosenings)
Given that there will never be another time in human history when no one has a gun, would you rather that only the people most likely to shoot you with their gun were able to carry?
My immediate family?
More seriously, with gun control, I can see merits on both sides of the arguement. Gun control legislation will never remove all of the guns from the violent criminals on the streets. On the other hand, this doesn't mean that no regulation should be attempted, as regulation may at least make it more difficult for criminals to obtain guns. On the gripping hand, any such regulation should bear in mind the US tradition (enshrined in the 2nd and 10th Amendments) of maintain final authority and the means to enforce it in the hands of the American people, and consider the balance the social gain of regulation with the social harm of erosion of this authority.
Getting back to the original topic, this proposed legislation appears far stupider than most gun control proposals. With most gun control laws it's clear that they will reduce the number of guns in criminal circulation over time. With this law, it's not clear that it will have any impact on those who commit E-bay fraud, and may be prohibitively inconvenient for the bulk of ordinary sellers.
//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
What, or rather who do they think they are??? This is the most absurd thing I have ever heard. What's next? Maybe we should get a license to have a garage sale. Larry Mumper is a giant wart on the ass of progress!!!
You didn't even Read The Fucking Summery . . . . there is a forum spellchecker available
SUMMARY! SUMMARY! SUMMARY!
Maybe you should use it.
If you're going to correct someone, you had better make damned sure that your post has no errors.
Can the spell checker find misuses of real words?
I never complain about summary spelling in summery weather.
Also, the person who sells on ebay is not an auctioneer. He is the owner of a product that has been taken to ebay to be auctioned off. EBAY is the auctioneer and probably the only entity covered by this law. Again, however, as laws get put on the books, their unintended audience will be found if it means that some fee can be extracted.
my mistake. If they did tax it, sell licences to deal, imagine the money they'd make.
Could you really imagine a world where corporations were allowed to market and sell devastatingly mind-altering drugs to anyone who wants to use them, even those that don't?
Oh, wait, we have that already. So in fact, its not difficult to 'imagine the money they would make', because drug-pimps are making trillions, annually.. legally, even.
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
Can the spell checker find misuses of real words?
No, but if he was unsure about the spelling, he could have looked it up and found that the meaning didn't match what he intended to say. The point is that he was correcting somebody else, so the burden was on him to make sure he didn't make the same mistake.
In all of this, I never saw a link to the law itself. After finding the thing, maybe I can see why. IA-so-NAL...
Ohio is regulating (or overregulating) its own state's businesses.
If Ohio was saying something along the lines of "if you sell something on eBay to another resident of Ohio, you owe a sales tax to the state," it would be legal. It's the exact same thing as if you purchase something online, often times you'll see the "add x% tax if you are a resident of y state".
But Ohio cannot say "we forbid you to sell to anybody in California unless you buy a state license from us" is unconstitutional. As soon as you begin to do business with anybody outside your state, trade and tax laws move beyond the state to the federal level. Only Congress has the power to tell a resident of Ohio that they can't sell anything to Californians, hence the name "Inter-state Commerce."
Gosh - everyone's getting pretty bent out of shape over a CNN article. Anyone have any ideas on where we can see specifics? The Cleveland Plain Dealer has another article: The general feeling I'm getting is that this is going to apply to auctioneers; those who sell things, for a fee, as a service to other people, or are professional resellers. This would exclude people selling used things that they own. Until I see the text, I'm reserving judgement.
...is by far more literate than the average US Joe.
AND they KEEP the damn assault gun AT HOME!
You US Joes want to carry the guns when you walk through a park in a Sunday afternoon (just in case a group of people decides to beat you), and THAT results in bloodbaths every single day in yankeeland.
I just don't want to see untrained people bearing guns at the amusement park. If you carry a gun, and you aren't in law enforcement, I prefer seeing you disarmed and driven to a precinct, instead of having a hard time trying to decide wich side of the law you are to see if I run or not.
Remember: GUNS KILL PEOPLE. Idiots and sons of bitches usually manage to have them kill the wrong people. But it's ALWAYS the gun that does it.
Cheers
I just read
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Scenario 1: Armed thug, by definition a lawbreaker, meets you in an alley. You pull your gun in defense. Two guns. Fair chance.
Scenario 2: Armed thug, by definition a lawbreaker, meets you in an alley. You have no weapon for defense. One gun. You are robbed and perhaps harmed, maybe even killed.
Explain to me how fewer guns, or legislation aimed at same, "is always a good thing" again? I see a glaring flaw in your reasoning.
You can't control "guns" with legislation; you can only attempt to control people. Which people will attempt to flout the laws? The ones most likely to hurt someone else by doing so. Which people will most likely obey? The decent person who will be left defenseless as a result. There's a reason Colt had a model named Peacemaker that many called the Equalizer. (Think about it.) One has to look no further than the District of High Murder Rate, ahem, Columbia, to see how well gun control works.
I know that gun control supporters are mostly well-intentioned people. But they're naively idealistic, too. You may desire a criminal-disarmament law, but be realistic - gun control laws only disarm innocent victims. The average hard-working joe has too much to lose by being caught with an illegal item, so he will comply, to his own disadvantage. The average no-good crook has too much to gain by not having a gun, so he will not comply, to his (increased) advantage (since everyone else is now disarmed).
Also, the most important reason for an armed citizenry is to keep government in check. Far more people were killed by government actions (often by their own government) during the 20th century than by crime. Any tyrant will seek to remove the means of effective revolt from his subjects. Learn from history or you'll be doomed to repeat its mistakes.
Constitutionally Correct
Only in Ohio... so freggin ghey So basically, it's just government trying to rape us for more money... sweet
This must be a joke. I don't think lawmakers are actually that stupid. Nobody would use ebay anymore.
And this is how American politics (don't) work.
Not just American politics, you might generalize to (for short, though I dislike the term) first world, though the causes differ slightly.
However, you forgot to mention that it also seems that politicians do have a quite distorted view of the world of the "commons" - due to a lack of both relevant empirically won "world-knowledge" as well as formal education.
CC.
TaijiQuan (Huang, 5 loosenings)
I don't know that much about Ohio's politics, though their position on science education leads me to believe you've got some pretty goofy people running the state.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
"It certainly will not apply to the casual seller on eBay, but might apply to anyone who sells a lot."
I know what you can do! You can sell stuff individually, not in lots!!
Could you really imagine a world where corporations were allowed to market and sell devastatingly mind-altering drugs to anyone who wants to use them, even those that don't?
Even those who don't?? If you don't want to use something, don't buy it...
We all know what to do, but we don't know how to get re-elected once we have done it
Quoted from:http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/weaver/040 420
Some of America's most sagacious and influential Founders warned repeatedly in so many words that American liberty and prosperity would be doomed once the people learned that they could vote largess out of the public treasury. The contemporary concept of domestic policy has become a veritable free-for-all among individuals, groups, organizations, corporations, universities, and state and local governments to see who can get the biggest check from the federal treasury.
The term "domestic policy" did not enter the American vernacular until after Franklin D. Roosevelt "broke the line" that James Madison spoke about in 1794. As reported by the Philadelphia Gazette and Universal Daily Advertiser in January of that year:
"Mr. Madison...was afraid of establishing a dangerous precedent, which might hereafter be perverted to the countenance of purposes, very different from those of charity. He acknowledged, for his own part, that he could not undertake to lay his finger on that Article in the Federal Constitution, which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents. And if once they broke the line laid down before them, for the direction of their conduct, it was impossible to say, to what lengths they might go, or to what extremities this practice might be carried."
Remember, James Madison was not only a Federalist; he was the Chief Architect of the U.S. Constitution!
They're simply requiring people to register and license their BUSINESS. This is a normal practice for all states. Nothing new to see here. Move on.
I disagree. According to Merriam-Webster;
Main Entry: auctioneer
Pronunciation: "ok-sh&-'nir
Function: noun
: an agent who sells goods at auction
That seems to me that if you sell stuff on eBay, you are an auctioneer.
Wealth is the product of man's capacity to think. -Ayn Rand
His insights are correct. And his insights on guns are correct as well.
Educate yourself. The statistics speak for themselves. The fact is gun control works, in many, many countries throughout the world.
If you don't believe the numbers in the article, just do a Google search yourself. You'll find plenty of "official" sources that list the exact same numbers.
Burning massive karma here, but it boggles my mind how people can plainly ignore or dispute facts that are right there in front of them.
Or are his insights into the world being flat correct as well?
Good grief...stop watching so much TV. I've lived 31 years in "yankeeland" and have never been within 500 miles of one of your supposed daily park bloodbaths. They don't exist. What does exist, though never reported in the mainstream press, is the many many defensive uses of guns - many of which involve only the brandishing (not firing) of the weapon. Bloodbaths are "good news" - scaring off a two-legged predator isn't.
And people kill people. People have been killing other people long before guns existed, and if guns are ever completely eliminated from the planet they will continue killing others. A person serious about killing someone else will simply pick the best tool for doing so, which is most often a gun these days. But you know the best thing about guns? They're easy for anyone to use, including the smaller and weaker members of the population. They don't have to be the most likely victims any longer. Women don't have to live in fear of rapists. The elderly/infirm don't have to live in fear of thieves. Gays don't have to live in fear of bashers. Jews don't have to live in fear of anti-semites. I'd say a society that can make the weak innocent victims as powerful as the strong merciless aggressors is a very enlightened one!
Constitutionally Correct
Under Sec. 4707.01. in reads (in part):
Under Sec. 4707.02. it reads (in part):
Now, IANAL, but to me this says that Ebay need to be licensed and to post the bond, not the seller. The seller is contracting Ebay's services as an auctioneer.
Always ask Cui bono? (Who benefits?)
In this case it's pretty obvious:
1. The state government, who gets a new source of revenue.
2. The certified "training" providers.
3. Any large businesses who were feeling threatened by Ebay-based upstarts. For them, $50k is peanuts, but for the little guy, it can make the whole business infeasible.
A perfect example of how regulations always benefit a select group, and that group always seems to include the politically connected.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." - Lord Acton
Sure, but also consider the number of young kids these days who are medicated. Individually, they don't have any say in whether or not they take ritalin or prozac or what-have-you. By the time they reach age of consent, the damage is done and they are a part of drug-consumer society, which is bad even if they restrict themselves to legal drugs.
Just a thought.
That leaves a lot of questions. How much is "a lot." That is not a legal term, it means many things to many people. Does he mean a number of items offered or a dollar value by "a lot"? Considering that Ebay isn't only in Ohio, this is an attempt by one state to regulate interstate commerce. It should be fought as such by people in Ohio who use Ebay.
How ya like dat?
"the license requires a one-year apprenticeship to a licensed auctioneer, acting as a bid-caller in 12 auctions, attending an approved auction school, passing a written and oral exam."
Now I'm gonna have to move to West Virginy where they don't require effing barber shop OR MSCEnjunear diplomas.
Do you think the Ohio Auctioneers Association
"The 500+ members of the OAA foster a network of auction professionals interested in sharing information and educating members, government officials and the general public on the auction method of marketing."
might have had something to do with this?
...for online buisinesses to move out of Ohio! wtg!
come to mind once again:
"I've said it before, and I'll say it again: democracy just doesn't work. "
Define "sells a lot". Once a month? Once a week? I love Ohio, but our laws and procedures here are so incomplete, backwards, and subjective to interpretation. I lived in Oklahoma for a short while, and I hate to say it but they actually have good laws and procedures (e.g., real estate practices, utility company policies) that make Ohio look like it's in the Dark Ages.
"But the authors state that it is not the intent, and that it will be modified to exclude casual sellers before it goes into affect."
Sure they will. Trust them. I mean, would a politician lie? Surely they will exclude "casual" sellers.
Great. Now define "casual". No, if there's no specific numerical threshhold attached, everybody who sells more than one thing could be considered non-"casual".
So what if you don't sell it as an auction but just stick a "buy it now" price on it? (disclaimer: I am not a frequent eBayer and this question might be very stupid indeed)
"They will get away with anything we let them get away with and they will never stop until somebody makes them stop." - Max Barry
They will never stop until somebody makes the
IANAL, but...
;o)
From eBay's website, When you list an item on eBay, you're charged an Insertion Fee.... Based on that, I'd say that it could be argued that you're simply the seller, and eBay is being hired by the seller to function as the auctioneer.
This can be strengthened by pointing out that eBay is the one who handles the bidding process itself, not the seller.
But then again, I may not have any clue what I'm talking about
Sounds like real-world auctioneers are feeling the pinch from ebay, and are looking for protection for their declining business model. That's the only reason I can think of for requiring online "auctions" (which are more like resale or consignment stores) to be run by people who have gone through an apprenticeship as auction callers.
"But the authors state that it is not the intent, and that it will be modified to exclude casual sellers before it goes into affect."
The authors intent would not be admissible evidence in court as a defense. The court would draw its own conclusions based on the text of the law.
Legislators have already said that the eBay thing was an unintended side-effect and would be fixed before it became law.
I live in Ohio, too, and the effects on eBay sellers in Ohio may be an "unintended side-effect," but until the law is amended to strictly exclude online auctions, I can guarantee you that eBay auctions are its target.
Claiming eBay sellers are not the target is like shooting at a fly on the side of a barn and claiming that you are not aiming for the barn. I'm willing to bet that eBay sales based in Ohio far outstrip terrestrial and telephone auctions in the state.
blog
You do know that while Al Capone never did get convicted of racketeering related offenses, he did get a LOT of jail time for failing to report certain income, right? Sometimes it's easier to prove the ancillary charge.
That said, I'd sure like to see this thing better designed/worded.
http://www.legislature.state.oh.us/bills.cfm?ID=12 5_SB_209
Sec. 4707.02. No person shall act as an auction firm, auctioneer, apprentice auctioneer, or special auctioneer within this state without a license issued by the department of agriculture. No auction shall be conducted in this state except by an auctioneer licensed by the department.
Honest sellers won't be impacted, because nobody will complain about them. Their buyers should be happy because the seller deals honestly in all transactions.
Dishonest sellers won't be impacted because if they are using ebay to scam, they are breaking the law anyways.... and if they are getting away with that, they'll be able to get away with breaking this law too.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Its a tricky one. I don't know what the arangements are in a traditional auction house, but I would assume this comes down to who handles what money.
eBay takes a fee from the seller and the buyer pays the winning bid directly to the seller. Does this make eBay the auctioneer? Certainly this law is meant to apply to the auctioneer. The auctioneer is usually a third party to the buyer and seller. eBay is def also the third party.
Thankyou. It's posts like this one that save Slashdot from being completely and utterly pointless.
If it weren't for the low, low /. UID I'd ask you if you were new here.
Yup...they'll try to get money (gov) any way they can. I can see them trying this in LA here. I was shocked to find out, that you actually have to purchase a license to hold a freakin' garage sale here in New Orleans. I've never heard of such a thing anywhere else I've ever lived...
Seems like they're going out of their way to tax and regulate everything, and as a side products...kill the small business startups....
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Even those who don't?? If you don't want to use something, don't buy it...
This is going to stop me being marketed drugs, how? Re-read this sentence:
Could you really imagine a world where corporations were allowed to market and sell devastatingly mind-altering drugs to anyone who wants to use them, even those that don't?
No matter how hard I try, even if I have a personal policy that drug use is forbidden, I will be marketed to - daily - by drug corporations who are selling the myth that their wares will cure my ills, and I will have to participate in a society where that marketing occurs in such rabid degree that it is now an 'acceptable fact' that drugs are good for curing mental problems.
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
Don't forget domestic firearm production.
There are guns that pretty much only need a sheetmetal press. Full auto at that.
Heck, there are communities over in the middleast that don't have any electrical power that are making good quality AK-47's by hand.
Back in WWII M3A1's (grease gun) were made that cost $9 each back then to produce. They were so easy to produce that toy manufacturers were hired to make some of them. Now, yes, inflation and such would likely make producing them cost in the $100-200 range, but still.
Do you really want the criminals to start producing firearms like they're producing drugs? After all, once they've started their own firarms industry, it's actually somewhat easier to make a full auto submachinegun than to make a semi-auto.
I don't read AC A human right
Why would it apply to LARGE sellers on eBay either? This kind of stuff simply kills people trying to start up a business and work for themselves. There a lots of people out here using eBay to try to become financially independent....why penalize them? What's the difference between a person who sells a couple of things vs. someone who sells a couple hundred items on eBay? They play by the same rules....
This seems like nothing more than a way to get extra revenue, and regulate more. If it was an honest mistake...why didn't they come out immediately and say so, and under no uncertain terms re-write the bill to exclude online sales in the fashion of eBay?
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Given the apprenticeship requirements, how much you want to bet the companies behind this are the auction houses. Sounds a lot like other market entry constraints put into place by businesses wanting to keep a greater market share. Similar contraints are put into place in just about every job market that has historically been around for a long time. Look at the Legal, Accounting, and trade fields and all the hoops professionals in those fields have to jump through to be successful.
that crutch our governments (local, state, etc.) rely upon to fill a wallet:
taxes
Could it be that taxing everything is not the way to go? I certainly think so.
There are three truths: my truth, your truth, and the truth. - Chinese proverb
Yeah...you know, I'm sure there are some kids out there that are ADD...but, I'm really of a mind that most of them are just aflicted with what we used to refer to 'back in the day'...as being a KID. Seems like they want to medicate everyone these days. Most every kid I knew growing up, had wild spurts...getting into some trouble (nothing bad)...it was called being a boy. Now...if a kid is anything but comatose...they seem to want to drug them...
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
No, you educate yourself. The fact is that gun control does not work in any place that's even remotely like the US. The vast majority -- over 80% -- of US gun crime consists of gangs killing other gangs over drugs. Want to do something about that? Well, ending the WoD would be a good start...
...-.-
For me to NOT live in Ohio.
We got here because we have a pervasive electronics commerce infrastructure with the absence of an accompanying pervasive authentication, privacy, and nonrepudiation services. Those things, which would be of immeasurable help now, were actively discouraged by the same kinds of government leaders who wish to solve this scaming problem.
Imagine cryptography had not been akin to arms dealing in the previous decade. Imagine a world where we had solid, dependable digital identities we could use (and demand to see) in our online transactions. Imagine we had gotten so used to using privacy enhanced mail, nonrepudiation services, and key management that dealing with these technologies were as natural as carrying a phone or a blackberry.
People are not stupid. People adjust and accomodate new technologies all the time if they see its value. But, they have to have the option to do so. The very things that would have headed off identity theft, the scourge of our age, and these scams on eBay were discourage by the might of government.
The answer to the second question, "is this the best way to solve it?" is clearly NO! Heaping more old-world laws on to the pile is not the answer. Encouraging the maturation of the digital infrastructure with encryption technology, nonrepudiation and identity infrastructures, and privacy ensuring tools is the way out of this mess and to a better world.
At one time I knew the man on a first name basis. He appears to have developed a taste for public money.
It appears he's become fee hungry, like the rest of Ohio's Republicans. With Ohio Republicans, like our lame duck Governor Taft -- who stands a snowball's chance in Hell of moving on to the U.S. Senate, we know him too well to advance him -- we get the worst of both worlds. Not only do we get the spend-thrift tendencies for which Republicans have historically been known, we get the urge to tax that is usually attributed to Democrats.
Basically with our current Ohio-brand Republican government in place, Ohio taxpayers get screwed, and we don't even get held close and kissed.
Get off my virtual lawn, you damned virtual kids!
Remember the drug "war"?
That's what I blame the majority of those deaths on. And that number has been declining for years.
Other than that, I feel that, just like safe sex and drivers ed, gun safety should be taught in school.
Suicide? Japan manages to have a suicide rate several times ours without guns. It's been shown that absent firearms, people simply find a different method.
Murder? The majority of murder, even in the USA is done without a firearm. Frying pans, hammers, clubs, knives, etc. In areas where they've actually managed to get rid of most of the guns, the criminals have turned to running in gangs and carrying knives. Return to the rule of the strong and all that.
I don't read AC A human right
Criminal control shouldn't be given to "innocent people" (the innocent people are the children who are found dead when playing with daddy's gun), but there should be MORE cops and stricter control.
Many guns used by criminals are STOLEN. Stolen from whom? From "innocent people" who LEGALLY BOUGHT their guns. Congratulations Mr. Innocent people, you just let a thief get another gun!
If you want more insight on Gun control, you should watch "Bowling for Columbine" by Michael Moore.
Now, going BACK TO THE TOPIC:
Yes, they're putting a TAX on eBay'ing. Well, that should teach people to pay more attention when voting.
I did RTFA, and what I see is that some technologically-challenged type mistakes eBay for a meatspace auction -- the requirements as stated are exactly those I'd expect for licensing of a meatspace auctioneer.
What on earth does bid-calling have to do with selling stuff on eBay, where you never see or hear the buyers' spoken or gestured responses, but only a final high bid as determined by a computer?? That alone tells me that whoever thinks this applies to eBay sellers is weak on the concept. In fact, eBay ITSELF is the "auctioneer" here, and the seller is essentially the same as someone who is *consigning* items to a meatspace auction.
I agree that it smells strongly of "let's find another point to extract money from our constituents' wallets". It won't impact scammers one bit.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
Remember, a vote against a Libertarian candidate is a vote to abolish the constitution itself. In other words, if you don't vote straight Libertarian, you are voting to aboilsh the constitution.
Sorry about that.
Nevertheless, you tried to directly access the memory from a process running on Windows NT, (which doesn't allow anything except drivers anywhere near most hardware, even if you are the closest approximation it has to root)?
Oh well, get a real Linux. Knoppix can be nice if you don't like partitions.
BTW do you have X on colinux, and how?
I am now off at least 3 different topics.
# cat
Damn, my RAM is full of llamas.
You had it there, the rest of your post is just ranting.
This is the state of Ohio interferring with interstate commerce and won't survive its first challenge in federal court. The US Constitution is clear on the point that it is the exclusive domain of the federal government to regulate interstate commerce and that no state law may surpass federal law.
It's just politicians responding to the will of some unhappy lot, probably local/in-state merchants who fear competition, meanwhile there are countless brick-and-mortar merchants who do employ eBay and other internet clearinghouses to move stagnant stock or add to their revenues.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Most of the people who actively seek it are elitists. They are not concerned with violent crime that doesn't apply to them, what they want is to be able to regulate you with impunity. Sarah Brady for example said that we will never have socialism in America until we ban guns.
Human nature being what it is, cops too will start to lose respect for the people when they cannot fight back. If you think the police brutality rate is bad now, imagine what it will be like when any bad cop knows that if he wants to "have some fun" with a perp that only the hardened criminal is likely to have a gun. That perp could be you, and your crime could be effectively nothing as happens today.
Click here or a puppy gets stomped!
Something about the Interstate Commerce Clause might get congress, or at least the judcial branch involved. How long until the first lawsuit to stop, or at least clarify, the law?
Only got past the first chapter on US History? It's the Federal and Supreme courts which interpret the constitutionality of laws, not Congress.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
It is not really about fraud protection. It is about making millions off those $200 fees. They add up. They feel they are losing sales tax revenue. We need to elect anti-tax people to office.
> ...Ohio has EVERY right to do this.
States do not have the right to impose arbitrary licensing laws. E.g. Arbitrary licensing laws on hairbraiders, casket sellers, and jitney drivers have been struck down.
The first question to ask when a new licensing scheme is proposed is whether its true motivation is rent seeking rather than consumer protection. I'd be interested to see whether Mr Mumper's has received any recent contributions the from brick and mortar antique seller's lobby.
"Give a man a fish and he will ask for tartar sauce and French fries!"
A law that tons of people technicly break, but the government says it "never intended to enforce" or "wasn't meant for these kind of people". Ok, great, if that's the case, modify the law such that they aren't covered.
The thing is, with vague laws like this, it's ripe for abuse. If someone in the government who can sway the DA gets mad at you, they can bring it selectively down on your head. For example let's say you are protesting some corrupt politician and they get mad, so they get the police to arrest you, and they tell the DA to give you a tough time. Little investigation turns out that you regularly sell things on eBay, just little trinkets and shit, but still. They then charge you with violating this law.
No laws need to be clear, and consistently enforced. None of this "Don't worry about breaking the law, it wasn't meant to apply to YOU" shit, because that's just an excuse for abuse. If they want the law to apply to real auctioneers, it needs to be written as such. If they want it to apply to eBay, they need to make that clear, and enforce it in all cases.
Do you also need a licence to sell items in a newspaper? Your front yard?
There are no loopholes. It's either legal or it's not.
And you say that reducing by 20% gun crime is not something that could be interesting to do ?
I know you were presenting an ironic situation ironically. But what about "mind altering" is "devastating", except in poetic hyperbole? It's not like any drugs alter your mind into a fertilizer/diesel bomb.
--
make install -not war
"Ohio Republican", can't get much more fucked up than that.
Actually the first words of the 2nd amendment is "A well regulated Militia". It not just "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms". Many people forget that, and some interpertations take that as meaning for some type of gun control. Doesn't matter to me either way, but both sides should keep that in mind.
J
does this apply to other auction sites?
Ohio is historical for things like this. One other item is they want you to pay a use tax on anything you buy over the internet or even by just driving over the border (common for cig smokers since Ohio raised their Cig Tax). They collect this when you fill a income tax form, yet they dont tell you how they know you bought that laptop in Kentucky or over the internet. The thing is, they can't. It's a pointless law.
One other stupid thing they are doing here in OH is they want to charge parking at State Parks. 5 per day or a pass for 25 that let's you park at any park. I believe they charge out of staters more. Yep....just make people NOT want to come to your little used State Park.
Ohio's governor is so bad for you politically if your a republican, that GW did not want to even be seen with him.
Gorkman
Laws are in two parts: Spirit and Word. The longer and farther from the enactment of the law the further the spirit gets distorted and used. The only thing left is the Word.
This law, while not intended (read spirit) to go after something like Ebay, will go after ebay one day. The wording of the law will be used by someone who does not understand the spirit and then use it. Spirit of the Law is no defense because now you have words.. on PAPER that say you can't do this.
No matter what you may think the spirit of the law is, the wording will push this on people.
Do you really think the Patriot Act was made to go after Strip Bar owners in Nevada? No it was to go after Terrorists.. but guess what?.. yep you got it.. People ignore spirit of the law all the time.
I can program myself out of a Hello World Contest!!
I bought a $225 microphone from what seemed like a reputable dealer on eBay. When it arrived, there was a washer bouncing around inside the thing. I contacted them and they offered to replace it. I shipped it back to them. It got there on Feb. 1 (according to FedEx). As of now (5 weeks later), I have received no replacement, and they have ignored multiple email requests for information.
I finally got their phone number and called them Saturday and left a message on their machine, but I don't honestly expect an answer. I think I just got ripped off by a vendor that has something on the order of 15,000 positive feedback points and almost no negatives. I have lost all trust in that feedback for the purpose of evaluating a vendor. This one is incompetent at handling any transaction where something goes wrong, and I can't believe that this hasn't happened to other people before.
If a law like this were in place, the apprenticeship process would likely ensure that regular eBay sellers have procedures in place for handling returns like any other company. It would require that they be bonded so that if they've found a way to scam the ratings system, I would have a means of getting my money back. Finally, it would ensure that someone acting like a business would be treated like a business, with all the regulation that comes with it, rather than allowing them to skirt all sorts of consumer protection regulations as they can now.
No, this would be a very good think, IMHO.
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
A site run by a guy looking like the second coming of David Koresh peddling a PDF with supposed facts that consist mostly of footnotes with vague references to FBI and other statistics does not exactly represent proof of anything other than your eagerness to embrace any excuse for guns.
I find it repugnant that this would be another law that makes money off of the honest. I say another because the first was enacted sometime around 1920 (I believe). It is called the 'use tax.' It is sales tax on things that are bought and shipped to Ohio from outside Ohio.
In other words, if I order something from a catalogue from a company outside Ohio, I would still have to pay sales tax, in the form of the 'use tax,' if the outside company is not 'use tax' aware (outside companies are not required, but they could tack on sales tax for Ohio customers, and then send the tax revenue to Ohio). This also applies to all online purchases.
The 'use tax' is reported on the income tax form, and is therefor only paid by the honest.
Ohio
So much to Discover! (TM)
You're claiming that this would -reduce- gun crime.
In practice, it might mean that those who kept their firearms might feel safer threatening those who hadn't. In addition, firearms usually provide one sort of means, not a motive; if you're killed by poison or knife, you're still just as dead.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
Outside the US yes, but inside the US on statistics done on a State by State basis concealed gun permits actually reduce crime. While gun control laws have little effect, and sometimes make matters worse.
Its a simple fact that the country is full of guns and they arn't going away. Apparently even the British are starting to have problems themselves as the criminals are arming themselves.
and if you RTFA, you would see that it goes into effect on May 2nd, 2005.
uR iGn0ranc3, Their Power
Thanks Ohio for reminding us who the REAL scam artists are.......
It would not surprise me to see more of this kind of crap passed here. It doesn't help that Taft is a total moron when it comes to handling money.
One Can Never Own Enough Musical Instruments...
Am working on the Colinux X but need to install a bunch of stuff to make it happen...will let you know. I do have a real Linux box but already knew the result and was curious how CL would respond.
I report to Colonel 2.6.1 and General Chaos is his boss.
There is no case that I no of where gun control has resulted in a visible lowering of the murder rate. Well there was a small decrease but there was one in the US as well during the time period. So you educate yourself: http://www.hardylaw.net/FailedExperiment.pdf
The law, meant to cover auctioneers in the state of Ohio, accidentally included ebayers simply because they too sell at auction.
It was unintended and the creator of the bill, once the full ramifications of it were pointed out in the media, said that it would be fixed ASAP to exclude ebayers. It will not be passed in to law and was never meant to affect ebay sellers.
This was in the Cleveland Plain Dealer this past Sunday. The issue is moot (now, the issue of politicians who don't have much of a clue, that is ripe for discussion).
There is a lot of room for change if it is believe that agency is not following the intent of the law.
I never stated it was a good law as written, or even as modified. Just that the authors said the interpretation, as presented here on /., was not what they intended; that they themselves would be negatively impacted, and would be changing it before it was signed. /shrug
And if you have read any US SC desicions I believe you will see "congress' intent" used a lot when it comes to deciding whether or not an agency's actions are legal or not. Therefore, I would believe that intent does matter in law & in courts assuming this extends to state courts.
This does not apply in any way, shape or form to ebay sellers.
A Seller is not an auctioneer.
Put away the tin-foil, it's rotting your brain!
Heh, where I went to school, "guns" were unmentioned. Of course, they also didn't institute a driver's ed program until after I had graduated... And sex ed was a one hour class, twice during my public school years. Had a precurser class in junior high, and another in high school. Neither covered much.
Gun safety training has been shown to be effective on six year olds. Of course, the most effective training has been found to require the usage of actual guns, so it might need a field trip due to some insane laws. Or at least to be taught by a police officer.
I don't read AC A human right
That legislature is not not responsible for fixing EBay. They're responsible for fixing Ohio. This law regulates businesses physically in Ohio.
As buyers, we should be happy about a state (or country) that is keeping its citizens honest. Don't you feel better about buying from them knowing that if a seller there screws you, you have some one to complain to who can take real action to help you?
As sellers, if we don't like the law, we can build our businesses elsewhere. Then, we can do anything we want to our customers. It's that simple.
"We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)
Sorry for telling you to get a real distro.
VNC using xvnc might be easier than cygwin perhaps?
# cat
Damn, my RAM is full of llamas.
Nor do I disagree. The 3yr+ budget problems are forcing a lot of bad decisions. No one wants to pony up and admit that Ohio can't afford to offer services like it has in the past. And of course, very few using those services will let them be cut without opposition. Something has to give.
As I see it, this is one of many end-runs around US Congress' ban on 'net taxes. I'm sure there will be more.
I don't know what retard modded my comment as "flamebait". I was just asking how is it a bad thing that honest citizens would not have guns.
Can't we ask questions anymore on slashdot without some -nazis modding everything down because they don't agree?...
You are more than the sum of what you consume. Desire is not an occupation.
This does not look like it is only about taxes, but also a protectionist bill for existing auctioneers.
"Besides costing $200 and posting a $50,000 bond, the license requires a one-year apprenticeship to a licensed auctioneer, acting as a bid-caller in 12 auctions, attending an approved auction school, passing a written and oral exam."
If it was just taxes, I'd think that they woulnd't bother with the apprenticeship, test, etc.
ebay is interstate commerece.
The FTC regulates that. This law would
give Ohio power that the Federal government
has. So IMHO (IANAL) this would be un-constitutional. Whay say ye, supreme court?
serving the sole purpose of allowing the senator to say "LOOK I WAS AGAINST EBAY SCAMMING!!!!111"
A+++++!!!! Would vote for again!!! Prompt porkbarrels, curteous pandering!!!!
Those who are selling their own stuff don't have to register, but those who sell other people's stuff do. That's reasonable enough.
If you want to see what a fully run Republican state looks like look no further than the past oh 15+ years of Ohio. The R's have controlled the house/senate and the governorship for around that long. High taxes, idiotic laws passed, a horribly run public education system, playing politics with environmental laws(E-Check in only certain counties while exempting the Columbus area with the pols). It used to be a nice state now it's just guns, gods and no gays while doing nothing to improve the state. Now they are also trying to pass a state Patriot Act which trys to throw loyalty clauses into the mix to work.
This is similar to most states' take on sales taxes at flea markets. You are SUPPOSED to have a sales tax permit, but they only check on people whom they suspect are raking in a lot of money.
Serving your airship needs since 1995.
The purpose of the law is simple: to provide income to the auctioneers' cartel. With the eBay regs, licensed auctioneers will have a huge new source of income as they sell eBay items which people are perfectly capable of selling for themselves. And the auctioneers' lobby undoubtedly provides a nice source of income for legislators who vote the way they like.
They also get training and their ammunition is *closely* monitored. If even a single round is missing, they'll get in trouble.
Still want to pretend this is less restrictive than the US?
Your "taxes" button went off, is that it? I can't even figure out what exactly you disagree so avidly with. It's like I scratched the magic spot on a dog's back, and that ol' back leg started the phantom scratching motion... Taxes! Freaking taxes!!
"Fundamentalism" isn't about divine morality. It's about human authority.
To my knowledge, it is extremely illegal to sell heroin in the Netherlands, where Amsterdam is the most important city. Perhaps you are confusing heroin with marijuana, which makes you an honorary Republican.
It is possible to get a license to sell marijuana in Amsterdam. It's a long and painstaking process. Marijuana gets sold in small outlets called 'coffeeshops' (English word) and coffee gets sold in a 'koffiehuis' (Dutch word). Sex shops are sometimes openly advertised as 'Fuck Houses' (public display of vulgar words in foreign languages is frowned on, but not illegal).
Some psycedelics like peyote and other sensitive drugs like organic Viagra (yohimbe) or intelligence-enhancers can be bought legally at 'Smart Shops'.
Nowhere in the Netherlands can a person just walk off the street and buy highly addictive drugs like crack cocaine, crystal meth, or heroin. There MAY be government programs to provide heroin to addicts under controlled conditions and monitoring, but no one legally sells it in licensed shops.
Thank you,
They don't call it that because that is banned at the federal level. So they repackage it, say you need an "appretinceship", etc and make it so it doesn't look like a sales tax. This is clear since an apprenticeship does zero for the auction. Ebay conducts the auction and it would run the same way for a 30 year auctioneer as it would for Jane the girl next door. Ebay has no special rules for bonded auctioneers than for anyone else.
So this is not a thinly veiled attempt, it is a thickly veiled attempt to get money from off of the net. $200 sounds like a figure that they think they are loosing by not collecting sales tax. The scary part is that not even the author of the bill is sure who is covered. Just get the money rolling in. I bet she doesn't sell stuff on Ebay.
We need to stop this one cold or you can depend on it spreading like a wildfire to other states and innocent men, women and children being beaten by police, fined and put in jail for not paying it.
I also read where someone claimed that Ohio has the right to do this. I don't think so. Congress has the exclusive right to regulate interstate commerce. It would seem that they are infringing on a Federal domain. If they are then they should put the people who voted for this in jail since they seem so fond of jail.
Odd, I never heard of a disembodied gun killing anyone. I always thought some criminal was holding the damn thing.
RTA!!
"The Cleveland Plain Dealer reported that the law, signed by Gov. Robert Taft on Feb. 1"
Its ALREADY SIGNED INTO LAW! ITS ALREADY PASSED! Stop talking about it as if its not passed or not law yet.
"go into effect May 2"
It goes into effect May 2nd. The big question is, how will they change an existing law and get a amendment passed and signed by the govoner before May 2nd? Otherwise IT AUTOMATICALLY applies to any ebayer in Ohio.
You are not forced to do any of this. If you and your friends/family/whoever else want a community that is free of marketing, you are free to set it up. You dont have to watch TV, you don't have to use the Internet... you don't even have to read books for fear they may speak of some product of outside society.
If your version of society is actually quantifiably better, more and more people will join and follow your ideals. Eventually no one will buy advertising if you are the wisest man in the world and no one ends up looking at it!
The only thing you have to fear is the government. They have a monopoly on force and murder. If they want to stuff Prozac down your kids throats, or tax you for not watching enough ads, they will force you at gunpoint, with the threat of jail or death.
And if you want to see what a fully run Democtratic state look no further New Jersey. Draconian gun laws: It's illegal to own a hunk of solid metal or plastic in the SHAPE of a real gun. The worst DMV in the country: If you fail to pay on time their "surcharge" for having too many points on your license (in the state with one of the highest insurance rates in the country) you get suspended with NO exceptions for going to and from work. Hits the working poor and lower middle class the hardest. The state legislature actually voted to censure a disk jockey who has unkind words for the acting governor's wife.
The Democrats put the "machine" in "machine politics."
That would be like passing a law that makes it illegal for drug dealers to sell without a license.
Actually, that is almost exactly how the federal government banned marijuana in 1937. The government required you to purchase tax stamps for marijuana and required doctors to have a special license to prescribe it. Thing was, they refused to sell the stamps or issue the licenses so you faced stiff penalties (now increased to up to life in prison) for not complying with a law the government would let you comply with.
The best article I have found on the history of US drug laws is The History of the Non-Medical Use of Drugs in the United States .
Now in this case, I don't think Ohio is trying to outlaw ebay.
While this post directly pertains to its parent post, it is off the original topic so please use some discretion in replying.
12K profit on 250K sales? It sounds to me like you're doing something very, very wrong. And if you're doing everything right (there are a LOT of tricks to maximizing e-bay sales) and you're still making less than 5% in profit, then you shouldn't be using e-bay at all.
Just as the tip of the iceberg:
Are you using auctions, and not "buy it now?" Are you making sure that your auctions always end during peak hours (5PM to 8PM Eastern)? Are you starting your auctions at very very low ($1 when possible) prices? Are you not using a reserve price? Lots of photos? Thumbnail photo on the listing? And dozens of other tricks that true "power sellers" use...
But like I said, if you're doing everything right and still only making 12K on a quarter million in sales, then whatever it is that you're selling just isn't well suited to e-bay, apparently.
It's Ebay's problem and they're obviously doing nothing about it.
Somehow SOMEONE doing NOTHING about it is ok. But this is the usual liburrrtariown claptrap: leave it alone and everyone will be fine getting robbed, poisoned, ripped off, run over, thrown thru the windshield, shot with semi-automatic weapons, etc.
South Dakota passes Ohio in population count.
- AMW
"Some of America's most sagacious and influential Founders warned repeatedly in so many words that American liberty and prosperity would be doomed once the people learned that they could vote largess out of the public treasury."
Of course, the people you refer to aren't just average citizens; with the exception of state inititives, people don't get to vote on specific issues. As we all know, merely voting for a candidate who states his support for a government program you like is an unreliable way to influence the outcome.
I also see you failed to mention the military where money is essentially flushed down the toilet with programs like missle defense that don't work as designed and couldn't defend against a real missle attack even if they did work since the underlying strategy is flawed.
"And if you have read any US SC decisions I believe you will see "congress' intent" used a lot when it comes to deciding whether or not an agency's actions are legal or not."
Citing "congress' intent" is really just another way of interpreting the text of the law or trying to justify a position that has no basis in the law.
You can see how impractical it would be to actually prove the intent of Congress. McCain and Finegold might have made speeches or wrote papers laying out their interpretation of the campaign finance law they wrote, but at the end of the day, they are only 2 Senators out of 100. You can't judge intent from such a small sample.
The real argument is that if the intent of a law was different than what the law stated prior to passage, then Congress would have revised it to reflect their actual intent and then passed it. Intent is pure hearsay.
I wonder if Larry Mumper bought a laptop from "Scammer25184" with a 0 feedback last year, only to find out the laptop must have gotten lost in the mail...
"that drugs are good for curing mental problems."
But only those that are patentable and deemed "Legal".
Now as per my original argument. THe ONLY reason I can do this and maintain very good custoemr service is automattion I designed.
The average seller can't do nearly this much and will be neged out of existence if the try.
Ebay sellers typically operate on a very slim margin and if Ohio trys to get some they will just end up driving it away.
And the last words are "shall not be infringed."
"A well-regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."
The first part of the sentence is known as an explanatory clause. It lists one reason for the right. Regulated back then meant "working", it was more of a mechanical term.
And guess what, pretty much every male over seventeen is a member of the militia, and I believe that there's a court case out there saying that that's discriminatory, they want women to be part of the militia as well.
If the first amendment ran: A well read citizenship, being necessary for the continuance of a free state, the right to keep and read books shall not be infringed.
Ask yourself this:
Would you consider it constitutional to ban books because they contain 'dangerous ideas'?
Would you consider it reasonable to require books to be kept in public libraries?
Would it be legal to slap a 200% tax on books?
I don't read AC A human right
Will everyone _please_ learn the correct spelling of this word? It is spelled ridiculous, with absolutely no "e." http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ridiculou s
I need just enough coffee to tide me over 'til I need more.
While I doubt the law in question would do anything like what you are suggesting...you aren't without recourse.
Did you pay using PayPal? If so file a complaint. You can also file complaints with eBay themselves and they will investigate. Make sure you save all your e-mails from them and the fedex info.
Good luck.
Actually, I didn't say anything. I was quoting an article written by someone else. And, apparently, you didn't bother to read his article.
As for the missile defense not working, it hasn't been perfected yet. I expect to see failures along the way. True, there has been a lot of waste in the Defense Department, but there have also been some fine weapons systems produced. I guess you're the kind of person who does everything right the first time. Yeah, sure.
Maybe I am stupid, but it seems to me that all ebay has to do is hire a licensed auctioneer and post 50 grand. Ebay is the entity running the auction, not the person selling on it, right? I mean, when my dad sold his old car at an auction he didn't have to go to auctioneer college or whatever, he just sold it through a bonded auction house. I'm sure the ebay legal ninjas are on this one already.
--mark
Folks may also be interested to know that this isn't the first time that Rep. Mumper has come up with a hair-brained idea that really isn't well thought out. He also proposed an "academic bill of rights" that basically would eliminate academic freedom. His belief is that higher education is populated by "democrats, liberals, and socialists" who are brainwashing students with their crazy political ideologies. So he proposed a bill to prevent profs from persistantly discussing controversial topics or having the appearance of partisanship.
Nevermind that this was censorship and completely unenforceable. Very reminiscent of McCarthyism.
He basically took the idea verbatim from David Horowitz.
The DMCA passed. The Patriot Act passed. The copyright extension law passed. The law allowing software patents passed. Let's face it...there is no END when it comes to the ineptitude of politicians with a pen in one hand, and boatload of self-interest in the other (which is most of them).
that guns dont' kill people.
Bullets kill people.
The reason that the firearms possession rate is so high is that as part of universal military service, all men between certain ages are required to keep their service weapon at home. However, the ammunition for these weapons is kept in a sealed tin and using the ammunition is a serious offense.
You can buy ammunition for your army weapon privately, but it has to be registered and accounted for unless purchased at a shooting range.
I should also point out that while violent crime went down in Florida after right to carry, this is part of a long term trend nationwide toward reduced crime rates. You can't say it is as a result, although I think you can justly claim that the worst nightmare scenarios of the opponents haven't come true.
Which is not to say you're position is wrong, just that you're quoting some rather unreliable sources. I've found it disappointing that gun rights groups are so sloppy and in some cases downright dishonest. For example, there's a widely distributed screed that is supposed to show that the US founders supported gun rights as they are now envisioned by modern gun rights advocates. However, after going to original sources (where they could be identified), I've found multiple examples of creative paraphrasing and abridgement.
Not that I want to lay the blame for every exaggeration made by a gun advocate ever on you -- far from it. I'm just tired of the phony statistics and anecdotes that people trot out in this debate. I'm not a gun nut or an anti-gun nut, so talk to me like an adult. An adult who has access to information to check up on what you say.
Personally, I'd be much more swayed by a straightforward and honest statement like this: " I like my gun. I use it responsibly. I shouldn't deprived of my harmless and repsonsible enjoyment because somebody else uses guns irresponsibly." This argument carries a lot of weight with me. But not some bullshit argument that somehow your firearm ownership is a public service to me, or that it's my patriotic duty to support private firearm ownership because James Madison thought it was cool.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
...and be sure to tell the regulators why.
I would have to wonder if this could affect transactions which are not between an Ohio seller and an Ohio buyer. IANAL, but couldn't an attempt to apply this to a transaction between an Ohio seller and, say, a buyer in Nebraska be construed as the State of Ohio attempting to regulate interstate commerce?
If I sell MY stuff on ebay, I am not an agent.
To quote the same dictionary:
Main Entry: agent
Pronunciation: 'A-j&nt
Function: noun
4 : one who is authorized to act for or in the place of another: as a : a representative, emissary, or official of a government b : one engaged in undercover activities (as espionage) : SPY c : a business representative (as of an athlete or entertainer)
"Actually, I didn't say anything. I was quoting an article written by someone else."
Well, either you agree with it or you don't. If you agree with it, take some responsibility for your opinion.
"As for the missile defense not working, it hasn't been perfected yet."
Perhaps the defense contractors should send us the bill AFTER they get it working (if ever). It would certainly save us a lot of money and we'd find out very quickly whether these companies really believe it will work.
although not exactly lethal, still dangerous considering the wild abandon with which we shot these things, but i remember we made bb gun's in elementary schools using cheap mechanical pencils (the cheap dark gray ones). all it took was the pencil, a rubberband, and your ammo. simple as anything.
1)pop off the plastic tip
2)break off the part under the tip, the "mechanical" part
3)slip rubberband through the clip
to use: put ammunition (bb pellet wutever) at the tip, pull it back with the rubberband at the eraser. let go. voila.
hrm... anarchist's cookbook anyone?
Taxes are not money wasted. They are the dues you pay to live in a civilized society. Education, Defense, Crime Prevention, Transportation, Infrastructure, these are all programs and benefits funded by your tax dollar.
Yeah. Where else would we get the money to spray poison on innocent Columbian farmers?
I can understand not liking income tax forms, not liking to fill out all the paperwork, not liking to deal with the red tape that comes from doing business with the government. That said, taxes are necessary to create government and, well, you get what you pay for. No taxes means no government.
Can you understand not wanting to contribute to famine, destruction of private property, tresspassing, and assault?
I think it's a crime that in the leading agricultural producing nation on earth, children are hungry.
Great. As long as you don't care about spraying poison on innocent Columbian children, you can pay your taxes with a clean conscience.
I carry regularly. In a standard mugging I'm more likely to hand over my wallet. Beyond that the scenarios are so situational that I can't really say what I'd do. I AM NOT a trigger happy "cowboy".
And believe it or not, civilians with CCW have historically had a BETTER success rate as far as avoiding shooting innocent people goes than the police. They also have a lower conviction rate than the rest of the population, according to the statistics of Florida and Texas (two of the longer running CCW states).
"All it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing."
I don't read AC A human right
One thing to add about writing to your reps is that it means nothing if they are convinced that you're going to re-elect them anyway. If you want your letters to have any teeth, back it up with your vote. It's very tiresom to hear people complaining about the people they constantly re-elect back into office until they(the politician) are dead, sometimes afterwords.(OK, bad example. I would've voted for the dead guy also.)
What?
... And I don't even live in Ohio
From the Conclusion on Mumper's Bill
2 6_SB_99
This act is hereby declared to be an emergency measure necessary for the immediate preservation of the public peace, health, and safety.
RTFB Here: http://www.legislature.state.oh.us/bills.cfm?ID=1
A site run by a guy looking like the second coming of David Koresh peddling a PDF
Ah, the ad hominem he's-not-like-us attack: the quintessential last resort of the clueless, would-be elitist, nanny-statist. The guy doesn't look like you (even worse, he looks like he's from Texas, where only simpletons live, right?), so of course he's wrong. Never mind that he doesn't look anything like Koresh, or that he's not "peddling" that free PDF. If that's peddling, and "looks" are the measure of credibility, then we could say about you, based on your erudite post and apparent standards:
"A comment, posted by a guy who sounds like he looks like Michael Moore, is peddling his supposed facts, which consist entirely of vague attacks on someone's research and information based on his looks, and on not having actually read the information at hand, which demonstrates the poster's eagerness to embrace any excuse for taking away personal liberty and responsibility so that he won't feel so bad about not wanting to be troubled with those things himself."
I mean, if it's good enough for you, it's good enough for you.
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
Well, anyway, it doesn't surprise me that here in the hard-working, harder-spending state of Ohio, the Statehouse goons would find a way to grub up some fresh cash. Haven't read the article, but I can say that this won't be uncommon when other jurisdictions get a whiff of the money coming in.
I'd have a personalized plate on my car, but "toxic bachelor" won't fit into 7 letters.
That would be like passing a law that makes it illegal for drug dealers to sell without a license. The best possible impact this could have would be forcing scammers to move their operations out of state.
There are some states that have a law requiring drug dealers to pay taxes on their drugs and get tax stickers to place on their product indicating that the taxes were paid. Nobody does it, but the intent was to add a charge of tax evasion onto anyone who was busted buying or selling drugs, even in the smallest amount. This was back in the 80's in the days before we had mandatory minimum sentences for drug offenders.
But all is not despair. Do you smell that? I do, it's the smell of legislation that will never be passed. This is just another one of those bills we keep seeing that has absolutely no chance of ever becoming law
Except that it has already been passed and signed into law and is scheduled to take effect on May 2nd.
Outside the US yes, but inside the US on statistics done on a State by State basis concealed gun permits actually reduce crime.
You know, I was watching the West Wing reruns last night and a similar notion was presented by one of the characters. Then the other character says "That's funny. You'd think that if your goal was to deter crime you would want the weapons displayed, not concealed."
I still haven't heard a rational counter-argument for that.
While I don't disagree with your reading of the 2nd amendment, there are a few things to point out:
Arms in the late 18th century were single-shot muskets. Arms nowadays can often be fully automatic with large magazines. That would be similar to defining 'Arms' as any weapon in the old days. That is, I don't think the founding fathers meant to have the modern day equivalent of cannons protected by the 2nd amendment.
"a person or entity (as an employee or independent contractor) authorized to act on behalf of and under the control of another in dealing with third parties"
This indicates to me that eBay is the agent, and therefore the auctioneer, as they are the ones conducting the auction. Think of it this way - if you get Sothebys to sell something for you, it does not make you an auctioneer.
My reading of that goes along the lines of 'It applies to everyone but we will apply it to anyone we please based on guidelines and criteria that we certainly wont reveal and likely dont even exist at all'
The government can profit by fining those who break the law. Therfore, it is in the best interests of the government to encourage as much crime as possible ( and hence secure a revenue stream for themselves ) - what better way to do this than by keeping laws secret such that they cannot be followed!
> Ah, the ad hominem he's-not-like-us attack
Whatever. I went to the site and actually pulled up and browsed his PDF. It's full of statments-of-truth with hard to verify sources, yet plausably and authoritatively formulated. IOW, the classic formula of the snake oil salesmen, regardless of whether they're selling herbal Viagra or perpetuum mobiles. And not everyone for gun control is a big Moore fan, either. Oh, and "gun control" does not mean "gun banning". But I guess that distinction is lost on budding anarchists.
...then only outlaws will ebay without a license.
QED
I'm the NEA (National Ebayer Association) and I vote.
When I was a kid, kids that now we say "have ADD" were "hyperactive" and given tranquilizers. This was in the late '70s. Now they've added more syllables and a hyphen (see George Carlin if you don't know what that implies), but, as you say, it's just being a kid. Or more specifically, a boy.
After all, how many GIRLS do you know that take Ritalin?
IMHO it's a control issue--they need to corral wild, creative kids and turn them into stolid, dependable consumers. But then, I might just be crazy. Grain of salt etc.
State Sen. Larry Mumper says: "If someone buys and sells on eBay on a regular basis as a type of business, then there is a need for regulation." Yes, well, and if a senator aint regulatin then he aint doin his job. Politicians are amazing idiots, you know? Bet 50 to 1 that this country would do hella lot better if all our representatives abstained from making any new law for the next 5 years.
Logic, macros, and more
Maybe you're not familiar with ADD, but it's not just the hyper kids. Some people who have ADD actually have LESS "wild spurts", and don't "get into trouble". They seem normal, except for the fact that they can't focus on things and seem bored, tired, and shy. It's called "inattentive" ADD.
When you look at the state of the world, how can you not become a radical, liberal anarchist?
You are being quite misleading.
The *government-issued* ammunition (i.e. the stuff that you aren't supposed to be wasting on hunting or shooting targets or whatever because it has to be ready if you ever get called out for emergency militia service) is monitored, yes. However, you can purchase your own.
You're right about the training, though.
And if you want to own a howitzer, you can.
can't focus on things and seem bored, tired, and shy.
Sounds just like another way of being a kid to me.
"When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
Basically it comes down to the fact that the average person isn't comfortable seeing weapons displayed. Either way it has a side benifit that in states where concealed weapons are popular many criminals know that there is a large chance that someone in say that minimart, has a concealed weapon. Security through obscurity I guess.
If gun control doesn't meen gun banning, then what would be different compared to what we already have in the US? You already need licenses/permits for guns and or hunting. You already undergo background checks by law. I mean, what else is necessary to have gun control vs gun banning?
Opera, Proxomitron-Grypen,GPG 0x0A1C6EE3
This online-auctioneer law and the bulk of gun-control legislation are both knee-jerk reactions that do little to nothing to stop criminal activity and a lot to complicate the lives of law-abiding citizens. They are both well-intentioned but misdirected. Do auto registration and business liquor licenses stop impaired driving? Of course not--they are mostly "user fees". How then would we expect gun or online aution licenses/registration to curb criminal activity?
The auctioneering law in Ohio sounds like it adds a huge amount of bureaucracy for anu good citizen who wishes to start an enterprise that markets its wares through eBay. How is requiring an Ohio seller to post a $50K bond, obtain a license and aprentice going to stop organized crime in New York from fencing goods on eBay, or some scammer in Los Angeles from bilking a buyer in Cincinatti out of his money? It won't. The law is useless.
This is the same route that Canadian gun registration has taken. That legislation was brought about in large part as a knee-jerk reation to the Marc Lepine shootings of female university students in Quebec. Citizens said "do something!" and politicians responded with gun registration. Now gun owners (even collectors who do not even USE the guns or have any ammo for them) must pay a fee, and fill out a bunch of forms answering quite personal questions, etc to keep their guns.
If you owned a gun before this legislation was implemented and do not register it you face criminal charges--yes that's right--you could go from having no criminal record to being a criminal BY DOING NOTHING AT ALL (you may own an unregisterd vehicle so long as you don't use it on public roads, so that tired comparison will not work). In any case, what makes people think that setting up a bureaucracy and a bunch of paperwork is going to make, say an Hells Angel go "oh wait--I'd better go register this gun I STOLE in New York and SMUGGLED into Montreal before I use it to shoot that bastard for stiffing me on that cocaine deal"?
Whether or not you believe in gun control is in large part immaterial. What is tragic is that nobody can see past the issue to the proposed solution. The Ohio law was to protect buyers on eBay so it is good and if you are against it you must support online criminal activity. The Canadian gun registry is to protect citizens from gun fatalities so it must be good, and if you are against it you must support criminals and wacko militias. TOTAL BULL.
You don't have to be a gun-toting redneck to be against gun control measures. That registry was supposed to be self-funding, only costing a couple million to set up the computer system. The government has spent OVER A BILLION now. In the meantime, municipal police, the RCMP and the military are struggling to stay within operating costs. There was a recent tragedy here where four RCMP were killed by a psychopath well known to authorities--they were shot with an unregistered high power assault rifle that isn't even legal to own in Canada much less register. This comes on the heels of a rash of gang-related shootings and knifings in Calgary nightclubs. Boy, that billion sure was well spent.
The victims of this crime were rookies on the force and there are some questions as to how the situation was handled. Given the history of the killer, why wasn't there appropriate backup? Partly due to underfunding some are saying--special forces were not available in a timely fashion. I wonder if maybe some of those lives would've been saved by using that billion or two to train and hire more officers instead of paper-pushers.
Gov. Taft has to ask himself a similar question--would the money needed to set up some online-auctioneering-license system not be better spent on enforcement? Perhaps setting up a task force between state police and FBI to pursue fraudulent auctioneers?
Oh, so do you also think that the founders, not envisioning such powerful information dissemination tools as radio, television, internet, high-speed presses, telephones, cell phones, photocopiers, etc, that the first amendment doesn't apply to them?
And a few militia members owned their own artillery pieces back then. To be honest though, I think that the founders drew a line between a soldier's personal 'arms', IE what he is expected to carry into combat and use by himself, and team-crewed artillery.
If you want the 2nd to say something else, you need to follow the proper procedure for having the constitution amended.
I don't read AC A human right
im guessing it wont be enforced, because it seems that would take investigation, and investigation takes money. and the money is what the ohio government, being republican, is all about.
0 228.html/
maybe if they do enforce it they can use the funds collected to keep their library going.
http://www.cincinnatilibrary.org/news/funding2005
The Ohio State Government is getting ridiculous. They plan to cut the funds because they dont have the income tax base they need, and apparently don't realize it's their duty to at least attempt to secure the jobs, to secure the incomes of citizens.
Well, not to get into a pissing match or anything, but I doubt very seriously that in any state there is ever a large chance of coming across someone with a legally concealed weapon. For example, in Ohio we recently passed a concealed carry law which went into effect last April. When the law was being debated, it's sponsors claimed that up to 5% of the state's population would end up with the permits. The population of the state of Ohio is approximately 11.5 million people. In the first 10 weeks after the law went into effect (when the biggest rush would be expected), the state issued permits to about 18,000 people approximately 1/6 of 1% of the population. So far after nearly a full year of availability they have issued permits to about 45,000 people, roughly 2/5 of 1% of the population. If I were a criminal I would really like those odds.
Sounds just like another way of being a kid to me.
So it's not a problem, even when symptoms persist into adulthood? OK, Freud.
When you look at the state of the world, how can you not become a radical, liberal anarchist?
I'm reminded of the movie "Bowling for Columbine" where Michael Moore makes the point that a strict reading of the Constitution could include nuclear weapons as 'arms', the point being that it is hard to know exactly what they meant at the time and what they would have to say about private citizens having RPGs, etc.
If you want the 2nd to say something else, you need to follow the proper procedure for having the constitution amended.
I think its just fine the way it is. I am pragmatic enough to know that outlawing certain weapons will not alleviate any problems. I was just noting that when people invoke the "founding fathers" they cannot know how the founding fathers would want the Constitution interpreted in today's context.
Didn't mean to imply that. I guess there are clinical cases, but am quite sure that the vast majority of kids treated for it are not.
And then, it should ring an alarm bell when something as ADD has only shown up in recent years, when we had kids forever. Could be a hint that something has changed to the worse in the upbringing? Maybe turn off the TV more? Seriously, when I noticed that cable stations started to air kid's cartoons in the moring from 5 to 7, I _knew trouble was around the corner. I guarantee you that when I watch an hour of cartoons before/instead of breakfast, I'd develop ADD too
"When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
Thats why I said "in states where concealed weapons are popular". Can't find the stats for texas, but apparently Arizona has about 1.3% carry rate. That may seem low I guess, but in a small store with say 5 customers and 2 employees thats a 9% chance, even higher given that said employees are likly to have a gun behind the counter. Anyways violent crime in Arizona has fallen 25.5 percent (on a percapita basis) sence 1995. This is slightly lower than the national average of 26.1 percent during the same time frame. But then again California dropped its violent crime rate 35.7 percent. So I could be completly wrong about all this :)
And yes I am completly contraditing my previous statement I know and going against the proper rules for arguing over the internet. BTW my stats came from http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/ which simply gave me the raw numbers I did the math. Corrections are definatly welcome.
I think its just fine the way it is. I am pragmatic enough to know that outlawing certain weapons will not alleviate any problems. I was just noting that when people invoke the "founding fathers" they cannot know how the founding fathers would want the Constitution interpreted in today's context.
First part: I agree with you, and will make the argument that denying arms to the civilian population makes problems worse.
And the founders, while great men, did have many flaws that would horrify people today. For one thing, they were a bunch of sexist and racist men. But I feel the document that they drew up was a masterpiece, and most amendments have only made it better.
I wonder, do you feel that I made the claim to know what the founders would think?
I'm with the idea that the "right to keep and bear arms" covers personal weapons. As in there's a difference between a rifle and artillery, Bombs, WMD.
Hmmm... Maybe I misunderstood you. Do you think that the founders would consider the M-16A2 of today as a non-personal arm? As artillery? Or, considering that it's standard issue to troops, definately covered by the second amendment?
I don't read AC A human right
Actually, someone's already done this. They're called "The Amish."
If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.