Following Bill Gates' Linux Attack Money

UnderScan writes "After researching this material for about three years, Tom Adelstein tracks Microsoft's anti-Linux lobbying money: "Microsoft has unparalleled influence throughout the Federal government. On the cover of a recent edition of VarBusiness Magazine dated June 26, 2005 the editors presented a large headline which read: 'It's A Microsoft World. Five years after running afoul of the Feds, Microsoft is as powerful as ever. Pushing a platform instead of products could make it stronger still. Why nothing seems to stop it.'""

Comments

In other news...

[gwayne]

Tom Adelstein discovers VarBusiness Magazine owned by Microsoft.

Microsoft may not be the problem.

[Vodak]

Nothing seems to stop it because people act like sheep when it comes to technology. Try selling OSS solutions to a non-profit group when companies are in thier ear about how OSS is evil.

Give the local company gives them a free copy of Office and they are sold that OSS is the devil.

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[dfsiii]

Exactly. Technology awareness is only half the battle - convincing people that the status quo is not acceptable is a whole other battle.

Because the field of information technology and technology as a whole is so fast-moving, people like to have some consistency. Sadly, Microsoft gives this to them with not only widely-compatible products (as most people use MS) but mediocrity. Why keep to this trend, we in the technological "know" ask. Why change, everyone else asks - what they have works fine.

If only there was something we could do.

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[BrainSurgeon]

....and vice versa!! DUH!

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[Vodak]

Using the support argument is difficult because it seems that people have been conditioned to think that if they have an Anti-virus peice of software and run Spy bot Search and Destroy on thier Win98 machines they will be fine. Of course we all know this is not the case.

Security is not on the mindset of people if it doesn't directory effect that user.

So what's left? Showing off the convaluted ways Microsoft Licences software?

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[Soybean47]

Technology awareness is only half the battle - convincing people that the status quo is not acceptable is a whole other battle.

But... what happened to the second half of the first battle? ;)

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[Anonymous Coward]

Lunix lost the second half already.....

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[IdleTime]

The problem is that the US political system is the most corrupt political system in the world. What do you expect when it is bribery set in system?

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[ZephyrXero]

"So what's left? Showing off the convaluted ways Microsoft Licences software?"

Actually yes...that's what got me interested in Linux. For the common cattle, it probably won't mean anything to them...but for anyone with a shred of activist in them explaining the rights they give away to have the "ease" of Windows will do the trick.

Also, just because their computer may be free of 3rd party spyware, doesn't mean their OS is free of 1st party spyware. "Trusted Computing" my ass...

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[qwijibo]

Only techies seem to be interested in things like awareness or battling the status quo.

Most people want the lowest common denominator. The average person has unprecidented access to information and low priced technology. They don't care that the reason this is true because there were people who wanted more than the mediocrity they saw around them. These people are sheep. We call them sheeple.

Businesses are built by stepping on sheeple and taking their money. If you want to be successful in business, you just have to lose your conscience. Geeks seem to have a hard time grasping that most of the world doesn't care about technology.

From the geek perspective, there is technology that is 10 times better than the stuff MS puts out. The average person has never seen the alternatives and never will. As far as they're concerned, MS is the most amazing thing ever.

There is something that we can do, but it's scary. It involves going outside and interacting with people.

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[arivanov]

Err... You clearly have never heard of Italy. Or Eastern Europe. Or Russia for that matter.

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[Luthair]

I don't know that corrupt is the proper word, its one of the most pro-corp governments and its only getting worse under Bush Jr.

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[Ricardo Lima]

Or Brazil. :(

Sometimes it's very sad to read the papers here.

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[danheskett]

Hardly.

You have no sense of perspective.

Is the US Government actively hostile to business? No.

It is hardly the most pro-corporate.

What a joke. You need to read about the rest of the world. The corruption and depth of influence that some companies hold in other countries is beyond shocking. Research how China is developing into an economic powerhouse and you'll see what I mean. It's not exactly what you'd call "transparent".

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[ZephyrXero]

See...whatever happened to survival of the fittest? Shouldn't all of these sheeple died out long ago?

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[DrSkwid]

lol, you wouldn't happen to be an American who hasn't travelled the world by any chance ?

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[Anonymous Coward]

Good. Maybe Linux can still win.

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[110010001000]

Uh huh. Its the corporations/George Bush/Bill Gates/black helicopters/The Boogeyman that are keeping people from adopting OSS.

If that were true then how do you explain Redhat, Linspire, etc? They are certainly corporations. How does that fit in with your conspiracy theory?

Maybe people aren't adopting OSS for other reasons (other than George Bush whispering in their ear).

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[Anonymous Coward]

This is war not only for Apple but for the whole OSS community. Microsoft is a monopoly that must be brought down because they fear OSS would damage there company in the long run. Then they tell average computer users that Linux is garbage and that Mac OS X has spyware. Also the world of politics would eventually fall once the world realizes how pathetic it is. So this is going to be a long war which is about to begin. Eventually the facts would point the OSS community and people would understand how cost effective, easy, and supportive it is. Than have a freaking Technical support charging you 75 dollars the hour.

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[IdleTime]

How2 this is rated as a troll is a mystery. here in the US companies and Special Interest Groups have politicians on their payroll. Any person who don't see that is truly blind.

And to all people who claim I have never been outside USA, I can only say I'm not an American, but come from a Scandinavian country. I have lived in USA since 1999. I've lived in several countries around the wolrd and travelled extensively in East-Europe too, both before and after the fall of communism. Nowhere have I seen politicans so blatantly ignoring the common peoples interest as here in the US while beeing in the pockets of corporations. You can mod me troll as much as you like, but it doesn't change the facts.

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[quanticle]

Its pretty hard to ensure "survival of the fittest" when the fittest don't reproduce...

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[Spirckle]

So sad, you may have a good appreciation for the inner workings of technology but you have no appreciation for the workings of evolutionary theory.

Survival of the fittest...but there's a part you left off. It's survival of the fittest of an organism to their environment. That means you can't take an organism that is fit in one environment and automatically declare it fit in all others.

So the 'sheeple' are so numerous because that's what their environment encourages; they would not fit well into your environment.

But environments evolve too and apparently your environment is not a good fit its wider environment which BTW includes all the sheeple. Sounds tautological I know but it's the way things work.

If you don't like the numerous organisms in an environment, you have to change their environment which makes them not so fit any more.

Throwing around pebbles is not likely to work.

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[Anonymous Coward]

Time for the Hail Mary pass for the touch down; otherwise, everyone will be locked-in and lose in the end.

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[Anonymous Coward]

Nonprofits get tremendous discounts from Microsoft. For them, the cost is so minimal that the learning curve isn't worth the money regardless if it's open source.

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[Hal9000_sn3]

For a predator to survive multiple generations, it would not do to kill all the prey at once.

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[Gordo_1]

Only techies seem to be interested in things like awareness or battling the status quo.

Perhaps you should rephrase that to include the caveat that this applies to the *technological* domain. Many people care about battling the status quo, but the average person doesn't understand the nuances of how M$ maintains its monopoly through government lobbying and embrace-and-extend philosophy... they just want the computer to accomplish the task at hand and carry on with their lives.

Just like you don't ask what animals were harmed in the making of the product you use to wash your hair. Nor does the typical geek sound the alarm to bring attention to the conflicts of interest entrenched within the US pharmaceutical industry or the worldwide monopoly that DeBeers holds on diamonds, or the dairy lobby or human rights.

So the point is, there are plenty of non-technology causes in this world, but technology is your domain, so it's fitting that you should be a proponent for education and change if that's what you believe in.

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes you are right. Its frightening. Everyday I confront the same ignorance and apathy. Once or twice it has started to get me down and miserable, but you must not let the bastards win.

Its not so much that geeks are obsessed with ethics, as that we are obsessed with TRUTH, ethics are subjective, but truth by definition is not. It is not that we need to interact more, I think its a poor stereotype that geeks are antisocial, rather that we need to interact in a more aggressive way.

Here's an example.

Once when somebody would ask me about Linux vs Windows I used to go on at great length explaining the reality of how everything worked, like a very bad salesman I would point out each and every one of the technical differences, making a terrible job and making Linux sound like a bad thing. I was being too clever, too honest.

Now when someone with a broken Windows machine calles me I copy all their data onto a pod, install Linux and set it up to seem like Windows (Gnome Redmond with windows icon set). Data goes back into a folder called My Documents. Job done.

I dont ask them. I just do it.

Sometimes they never even realise its not windows because the only thing they ever install is Firefox plugins.

If they ask, I just say its the replacement for Windows, Windows is old, this is the new thing...

Oh, they say, think about it for a moment, raise an eyebrow and carry on with life as normal. I have not had a single negative response yet. Try it. If anyone complains and asks me put Windows back on I tell them it will be 300 bucks, and they shut right up.

The TRUTH is what you make it.

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[rekrutacja]

> From the geek perspective, there is technology
> that is 10 times better than the stuff MS puts out.
> The average person has never seen the alternatives and never will.

It's not the case. I'm not a geek - i'm pretty much an average user you will encounter in endless smal officess around a globe. I use GNU/Linux exclusively for three years now. Yesterday i decided to do an icredibly usefull, but scary procedure: setting up a small local network.
You hear it right: what in Windows takes few mouseclicks on Ubuntu is a horrible task. Install NFS, edit etc/exports file, edit etc/init'd files, and so on. I'm pretty advanced user, i installed several GNU/Linux systems myself, but there i needed almost two hours long technical assitance.
What is good for geeks is still a horrible experience for user. During that 3 years i saw incredible advance. Latest Ubuntu is like heaven comparing to my first Mandrake. But there is still a long way ahead, so don't blame users.

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[thephotoman]

I was talking to Darwin about this just the other day. For the record, he has a LiveJournal (he's evolvingdarwin over there).

He says it's because there is no selection in effect to kill off the sheeple. They'd die quickly in the wild, but they have ridden to dominance thanks to the intelligentista having compassion for their lessers.

So, basically, it's our fault that there are so many stupid people, as we've created an environment that doesn't demand that they think or die. Me, I blame the Baby Boomers.

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[DrCode]

Don't any of these people ever try to install commercial (Windows) software that they bought? That'd be my fear if I put Linux on an unknowing user's computer.

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[qwijibo]

You're right. That's a PITA. I'm a Unix sysadmin, so I've done that little chore a few times myself.

The reason it's so painful is that nobody wants to make it simple. The idea is that networking computers puts you at greater risk. Most people wouldn't understand the implications of making all of their filesystems publicly available via NFS. By being painful, it helps keep people from hurting themselves until they go through the same pain we went through to learn.

That idea is a bunch of bunk. If we want to get people to use the OS we uber-geeks use, we need to accept that some people are going to want to shoot themselves in the foot. By now, we should have a plethora of shiny guns being offerred to the user.

I'm not being facetious here. I think the protect-the-user-from-himself philosophy needs to be seriously reconsidered.

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[Anonymous Coward]

Licensing is probably the biggest issue that I have with Microsoft.

I'm fairly technology-agnostic. Linux, mainframe, Windows, terminal, whatever works. But as I've moved into increasingly larger organizations, I've seen the licensing schemes get more and more convoluted.

At the smallest level, if you needed to use something, you bought it, and that was it. A little bigger, and you got a little discount for buying a few at a time. A bit larger, and you get a bigger discount for promising to buy a given amount over a given time.

Now I look at the contract that is just for my current employer, and it reads like the Patriot Act, but with even less Vaseline. We wanted to deploy a Windows 2003 Terminal Server with Office, and it took most of a day just to figure out how much we were supposed to pay -- which was less than what the first Microsoft rep told us, and more than what the second one said. (This went a long way in reinforcing for some people that you'll get five answers from any three licensing people from Microsoft on the larger licenses.) We ended up getting a formal quote, which delayed things, and it ended up being roughly what we thought it would be.

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[trygstad]

The Northern Illinois Conference of the United Methodist Church spent $19,000 last year for a Microsoft Exchange email system, which could easily have been done in OSS (Linux, Postfix, SquirrelMail and Mailman) for a grand total of $0.00, using a system which would have been otherwise obsolete for use as a desktop. Guess I need to write a sermon on OSS and social consciousness. At least I know at the non-profit where I work, Illinois Institute of Technology's Center for Professional Development, has all open-source production servers--at least all the ones I am responsible for!

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[Anonymous Coward]

Try selling OSS solutions to a non-profit group when companies are in thier ear about how OSS is evil.

This statement really deserves a much longer reply than I will give, because it open up a very complex issue. But the short reply is that there are numerous vertical market applications (development, fund accounting, to name two) that are mostly not available except withing the Windows realm. There are a couple of alternatives available to Mac users, but they're not as good. End of story.

I know of only one effort to create some of this nonprofit software with FOSS development tools, but as yet there is nothing to show for it.

There are some nonprofits that can exist without these applications, but not many. Nonprofits have numerous legal requirements, and really cannot meet their reporting obligations without adequate tools. This situation is frustrating to many, many nonprofit workers, who do not support the values of companies like Microsoft (not to mention some of the sleazy publishers of nonprofit software), but are without any viable alternatives.

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[ToasterofDOOM]

EXACTLY!!! Ease of use is at least half of anythings usefulness. That's why Apple is so great. They realize that simply making a good product is only half the battle. All you GNU zealots who are blind to this OPEN YOUR EYES! You have to make something accessible to the average Joe, and sell it to him. I don't mean exchange of goods for money but social engineering. Can't you see this is why MS is so powerful? Bill Gates sold himself to IBM. He sold himself to the public. He also sold an easy product. DOS was a piece of junk, and windows hasn't improved on it much, but he has sold it nonetheless! GNU/Linux IS way more powerful than Windows, but as an end-user product it sucks! It has improved, but as a whole it sucks unless you know what you are doing (in which case it's the coolest thing since sliced bread) which most people don't want to. They already know Windows an that it is easier for them to keep on doing The Same Old ThingTM so why do anything else? Do what the user wants, not always necessarily what he needs and you will have a much more satisfied person. [/rant]

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, you guys, most of you "Anti-Microsoft" people, WAKE UP!

Microsoft makes excellent product, no questions asked or about it... & they DO purchase (literally) the best talent out there (witness one of my 'technical/intellectual heroes' in Mr. Anders Heijelsberg being picked up from Borland by "King Billy" as I call Mr. Gates)... and also the very best they can buy in other companies' wares.

Alot of you seem to knock this, again: WAKE UP - it's business!

Linux, even though I like it very much (especially KDE), is just a 'knock-off' UNIX, like it or not!

It's not like some TRULY 'original concept', but it's better @ this point, than most UNIX's are imo... Especially once it got more "enterprise class" ready via SMP readiness & a truly re-entrant kernel level functionality built into it.

PnP has helped immensely, as well. That impressed me the most, & why? Because it's not only tech/admin saviour oriented, but also for the common dude who uses a PC! Drivers have come along too, more hardware support.

BUT, it's NOT Windows Server 2003, & not by a long shot.

(Not so much in the 2.6 kernel builds, to me it's improvements are VERY impressive imo! BUT, the software for it?? It's not of the class of what is available for Windows Server 2003 @ the server/back office level... and most certainly NOT for the end-user as much.)

And, the author of the article has one thing right about it: MS is truly, unstoppable. It's the CA$H, that biggest of all 4 letter words in today's "Holy Dollar" world. Just facts.

(How could they not be ontop, and not just on cash along? You see, since 1982, I have developed on platforms ranging from DEC PDP-11, Vax, System 34/36/38, As/400, (on Various OS' like Unixes, VMS, & Os/400(zOS of today basically) & nothing even touches the ease of use the Win32 API gave you, plus RAD tools once they rolled into the picture... things like VB, Delphi by Borland, &/or C++ Builder by Borland)

How did MS win this huge ball of wax?

SIMPLE: By capturing folks like myself that build the tools all of us use...

Capturing programmers.

Making it a livable and FUN job (if there is such a thing) for the most part.

What's kicking Linux's A$$, imo, is the lack of monetary reward coding around it & lack of end user oriented vast types of applications...

Personally, I thought Kylix was going to change that, but the Penguin crowd, imo, is SO damn inflexible & C/C++ oriented (along with PERL) & the tools I have seen for that pale by comparison...

And BIG problem, imo? All the Linux crowd REALLY seems to concentrate on is making it strong, where it's ALREADY STRONG:

Server-side.

Linux needs more end-user oriented apps, & of higher quality...

Yes, before an 'angry mob of penguins surrounds me', those too have come along, but not anywhere near the wealth of what's out there for Win32... again, why is that?

Read above!

APK

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[jc42]

Heh. Contrary to the earlier "sheeple" metaphor, I like to use the evolutionary example of ants.

Now, you may think that ants are insignificant. But their total biomass is much greater than that of humans. And we don't control them. They go on about their little lives blissfully unaware of us. They have almost no brain, and blindly follow instructions from a "hive" mind that also has little intelligence. Most aren't ever allowed to reproduce; those who do are imprisoned for their entire life in one underground room.

But they've been around a lot longer than humans. They represent more of the biosphere than we do. We can't do much about them except maybe stick our finger in the path of one or kill a few. The rest don't notice, and just go about their lives.

Sound familiar?

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[killjoe]

I have to disagree with you. I have talked to hundreds of ordinary joes and janes who use windows and not one of them actually had one kind word about MS or windows.

yes they don't know there are better solutions out there but they hate the crap being shoved down their throats.

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[killjoe]

China is not pro corporation. They are for tight control of corporations by the govt. The exact opposite of the US where the corporations have tight control of the govt.

So give us another example of a govt more pro corporate then the US.

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[St. Arbirix]

+1 libertarian

We all see the problem. We're just so worried "the other side" will win that we can't get off the side we're already on. It's an arms race.

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[drsmithy]

The problem is that the US political system is the most corrupt political system in the world. What do you expect when it is bribery set in system?

It seems you have about as much experience as the submitter ("Microsoft has unparalleled influence throughout the Federal government." WTF ? Compared to who ? The GNAA ?).

Compared to governments with actual, endemic, systemic corruption, the US government is a shining beacon of honesty - and I'm not exactly a big fan of the US at the best of times.

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[falconwolf]

Time for the Hail Mary pass for the touch down; otherwise, everyone will be locked-in and lose in the end.

Maybe when more people, businesses, are suffering lock-in they'll wise up? I use Windows now, but my next computer I plan on getting is an Apple Powerbook, as I refuse to get any OS like XP that requires activation. I may get Win2000 but if I do then I'll be running it in Virtual PC on the Mac, and if and when I upgrade the PC I am using now as I only for WinME on it now.

Falcon

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[b0r0din]

From the geek perspective, there is technology that is 10 times better than the stuff MS puts out.

You're wrong about this, but only to a certain degree. I think there is technology from a software standpoint that might be 2 or 4 times better than MS, but software just hasn't improved that much on an overall OS level.

However look at Firefox. Firefox is a perfect example of a grassroots technology taking market share from Microsoft. IE was horrible, and Firefox offered many things that were a major improvement over IE. I realized just seconds after using it how great it was, and was so happy with it I convinced family members to use it because it would import less spyware through ActiveX, would allow them tabbed browsing and pop up blocking, and had ad blocking technology too.

Now, I'm sorry, but Linux is not the killer app Firefox is, from a desktop user standpoint. I've setup Linux before, and frankly in my opinion from base enduser standpoint, Windows is more intuitive. From a server standpoint, Linux has really hit MS hard because it is much better in this department, but that's another story.

MS is worried because Linux could be, eventually, the type of killer app Firefox is, and could begin to eat into their desktop share (although Apple now seems intent on doing this by adopting x86 - you can bet that scares the folks in Redmond a little). I think they're also worried because the big selling points of Windows revolved around two things; MS Office and gaming. Well, now there's OpenOffice if you need Office. And for gaming, well 95% of all games are now played on consoles, not WindowsPC. Hence the Xbox.

MS being a huge government lobbyist is hardly news to me; in fact if you look at those numbers, it's pretty obvious that Patrick Leahy is pretty firmly under the control of media conglomerates like Time Warner, Sony, and Viacom; and that scares me more than anything else, because he's certainly not the only one, and because the media are responsible for bringing news to the general public. In fact, the mere fact that this is being brought up on someone's unknown blog points to the fact that the media is not doing their job with regards to informing the public and being a true source of objective journalism. That scares me a lot more than MS trying to buy off politicians, because it's already pretty obvious that our federal government has been bought out by corporate conglomerates in general. The media, our so-called fourth check on power, spends more time talking about Tom Cruise's infatuation with making an ass out of himself than it does reporting the little things that would actually matter to many of us non-sheeple. The dumbing down of our news by corporations annoys me more than hearing that MS uses lobbyists. I'm happy there are those out there reporting on this, but I'm equally not surprised.

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[falconwolf]

Businesses are built by stepping on sheeple and taking their money. If you want to be successful in business, you just have to lose your conscience. Geeks seem to have a hard time grasping that most of the world doesn't care about technology.

That is one way businesses become "successful", another way is to provide a product or service at a price they are willing to pay in a free and fair exchange. I won't speak of Geeks, but most people in general don't realize we don't have true free trade and capitalism, what we have now is the corporate aristocracy Thomas Jefferson warned of.

"I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country."
Thomas Jefferson, 1814

Falcon

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[falconwolf]

Just like you don't ask what animals were harmed in the making of the product you use to wash your hair. Nor does the typical geek sound the alarm to bring attention to the conflicts of interest entrenched within the US pharmaceutical industry or the worldwide monopoly that DeBeers holds on diamonds, or the dairy lobby or human rights.

I know you didn't direct this at me but I'll byte. The shampoo I use isn't tested on animals, other than humans that is, nor does it have a bunch of manmade chemicals as I buy organic. On DeBeers, they don't have the monopoly they used to as Russia is now a big producer of diamonds as well. However it was DeBeers that started apartheid more than a hundred years ago, and helped to abolish it later.

Falcon

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[falconwolf]

They already know Windows an that it is easier for them to keep on doing The Same Old ThingTM so why do anything else?

While I generally agree with what you say, I have a problem with the part above about Windows being easier. Sure it is easier than the unices (plural of unix) are but the easiest computer/OS I've used was Amiga then comes Mac. Now as for why Windows became dominate was because the PC architecture was open so anyone could build a PC and install Windows on it and many OEMs did just that. The various flavors of unix are getting that way but they usually require more knowledge from the users, and Macs mostly have been a closed platform.

Falcon

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[ToasterofDOOM]

True, the Macs are several orders of magnitude easier (I haven't been lucky enough to toy around with an Amiga ... too young I guess, and my Dad is an MS Nazi) But as I said, Apple hasn't sold itself as effectively or aggressively to the general public, and has thus remained a sort of niche product.

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[MrResistor]

next computer I plan on getting is an Apple Powerbook, as I refuse to get any OS like XP that requires activation.

Hmmm...

I don't like product activation, so I'm going to switch to an OS that only runs on a single manufacturer's hardware.

Of all the reasons there are for buying a Mac, escaping lock-in is the dumbest.

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[MrResistor]

Since I don't have mod points, I'm echoing the AC's "try SuSE" comment. It's well worth the money. They've been beating MS in the "easy config" department since the SuSE7.x days, and yes that includes all manner of networking and filesharing.

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[falconwolf]

I don't like product activation, so I'm going to switch to an OS that only runs on a single manufacturer's hardware.

Of all the reasons there are for buying a Mac, escaping lock-in is the dumbest.

First activation is no where near the same as being able to run something on only one platform. Secondly I'd thought of getting a Mac Powerbook before I learned of activation on XP. I've loved Macs since I first used them about 20 years ago, and though the computer I'm using now is a PC I have an old Mac next to me. I also like the real estate the 17" Powerbook provides. On top of that I'll be working on websites and want to make sure any I work on are cross browser/platform capable. I can still run, and will, Windows on a Mac whereas I haven't heard of any way to run MacOS and Mac software on PCs.

Falcon

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[MrResistor]

Hey, good for you. I'm just shocked at how often people suggest Mac as a way to escape MS lock-in. Perhaps I should have said: there are plenty of reasons to get a Mac, but escaping lock-in isn't one of them.

Sorry, but from where I sit, at least as far as lock-in, Mac is the same, but for hardware too.

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[Mithrandir86]

You are confusing "facts" with "anecdotes".

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[1u3hr]

China is not pro corporation. They are for tight control of corporations by the govt.

Tight control by members of the government, or more often, their children. Most of the large corporations in China are firmly controlled by "Red Princes", the sons and daughters of the Communist Party bosses. When it comes to a conflict between ideology and business, these days business often wins in China. On the whole, it's a good thing, in comparison to purely state-directed business, which lead to famine and poverty.

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[LaCosaNostradamus]

Well, what you might have meant instead is that the United States has the most corrupt political system in comparison to its own expectations . There are many other nations with very corrupt politics, but its very acculturated. In the USA, there is a large expectation that there will be no bribery, vote fraud, etc.

This is one of the largest problems in the USA. The country's practices are highly divergent from the country's intentions.

Re:Microsoft may not be the problem.

[Azzhole]

No little boy dolt. YOU need to quit "reading" and get out into the world. The US is SUPER pro corporate, as long as its a fatcat corp with lots of promising stocks and perks for the clowns in DC. Go back to Drudge report and read Ann Coulters blathering bulchit. Wave your flag ( made in China/ bought at Wal Mart)... Dupe !

Hmm...

[OmgTEHMATRICKS]

"Microsoft has unparalleled influence throughout the Federal government."

Whether this influence is actually good for Microsoft remains to be seen.

Re:Hmm...

[wetdirtmud]

The new linux campaign... They should really start using Linux in the White House. The catchy slogan: Even the President can install it!

Re:Hmm...

[Nytewynd]

Except he can't...

Re:Hmm...

[ravenspear]

How could it not be?

By simply pouring in billions of lobbying dollars, they are able to convince legislators with limited technological knowledge that they have the only viable platform and are able to successfully obfuscate the myriad of problems that their platform brings with it.

Re:Hmm...

[smittyoneeach]

Take a random computer and peripherals[1], to include an 802.11x network, and set up WinXP with the default Admin and a Limited account, and make it all work smoothly for the Limited account.
Still haven't unkinked it all, even with O'Reilly's WinXP Hacks book, 2th Edition.
And my other partition is a source-based GNU/Linux distro, so, while I may be an idiot, I lay claim to being a clever idiot.
Back on topic, the problem is the amount of MSFT in the portfolios of decision makers.
The stock market is a vast, perfectly legal, source of conflict-of-interest.
Sorry, no realistic remedy.

[1] common, non-MS hardware

Re:Hmm...

[derEikopf]

I thought most of us hated legislators and politicians? If this is the case, then what's the problem with them using Microsoft? It could be considered their punishment ;)

Re:Hmm...

[Anonymous Coward]

If only people would have voted for Michael Badnarik instead of Dubya...

Re:Hmm...

[paroneayea]

Corporate lobbying is altogether anti-democratic. It should be illegal.

What we need is to start an anti-corporate lobbying campaign. Otherwise these problems are never going to end.

Re:Hmm...

[OmgTEHMATRICKS]

...How is this modded redundant, btw? I was the first one to post this(far as I know.)

Great job!

[rqqrtnb]

It's a shame that the pro Windoze + Micro$oft reports get aired across the web with reeding figures in the hundreds of thousands, while this well reserched quality article of pure uncomfortable truth sits here preaching to the choir.

Times like this make me wish I owned a newspaper.

Re:Great job!

[Approaching.sanity]

If you did Microsoft would probably buy you out anyway ;-)

Re:Great job!

[Anonymous Coward]

Times like this make me wish I owned a newspaper.

Posts like yours make *me* wish you owned a spellchecker!

Re:Great job!

[jacksonj04]

I'll give you a hint, and take it more seriously than it looks.

You will never own a newspaper if you use "Windoze" and "Micro$oft". The terms are "Windows" and "Microsoft".

Management do not listen to people going "You shouldn't use Windoze because it is made by Micro$oft, and Micro$oft are evil!".

Seriously. Spelling names wrong or trying to be 'l33t' doesn't make your point any stronger, in fact the opposite.

I'll let "reeding figures" slip for now.

The Golden Rule.

[macaulay805]

Whoever has the gold makes the rules.

Re:The Golden Rule.

[justforaday]

I have a golden crayon. Can I make a rule?

Re:The Golden Rule.

[roror]

All that is golden is not gold.

Re:The Golden Rule.

[Doug Dante]

No, it's: Whoever makes the rules gets the gold. Notice that Microsoft is paying (*) politicians and not vice versa? (*) As in, donating money to the campaigns of said politicians.

Re:The Golden Rule.

[phyruxus]

all that glitters is not gold (?)

I believe that is the quote. Although technically you're not wrong, as pyrite is golden and not gold

Re:The Golden Rule.

[Perky_Goth]

you can have this rule

Re:The Golden Rule.

[SuppleMonkey]

I have a Golden Ticket. Can I have some chocolate?

Re:The Golden Rule.

[Xyrus]

Sure...as long as I get to eat the crayon.

You don't happen to have any paste do you?

~X~

Re:The Golden Rule.

[stor]

I have a golden crayon. Can I make a rule?

Dubya, is that you?

Cheers
Stor

p.s. Sorry...

Re:The Golden Rule.

[Nuffsaid]

Only if you buy a ruler.

Hmmmm

[Vonotar82]

It's only a matter of time before MicrSoft seceeds from the Union, forming a technocracy that will rule the internet and unleash Clippy v2.0, the Terminator edition. Unstoppable, blob-like, indefatigable, only Mr. Peabody and the Way Back machine can stop it now. May the Gods have mercy on our souls.

Re:Hmmmm

[Captain Scurvy]

I see that you are trying to run a non-Microsoft branded application! A Clippy 2.0: Terminator Edition helper cyborg has been dispatched to your location to assist you with your problem. (And it is a problem. Trust us.)

Upon his arrival, you can:
a.) Choose to serve in a mining colony for twelve years
b.) Pay the fine of "firstborn son or daughter"
c.) Take a bullet in the brain

Re:Hmmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, and to stop this army, we'll need to infect its nervecenter with a computer virus delivered using a...MacTel computer?

"It's the Fargate, from the makers of Findependence day!" -- Spacecataz

Re:Hmmmm

[Vonotar82]

Hello Human. This Unit Is Designated Clippy, HAPPY MICROSOFT ASSISTANT. You Require Help. This Unit Will Nullify Your Problem In An UPLIFTING, MEANINGFUL WAY. Thank You For Using Microsoft. Don't Forget To Upgrade To Service Pack 3.>

Re:Hmmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Okay, time to pull out the standard clippy joke.

int Clippy(int *clippy_active) {
static unsigned int auto_activate_clippy_count = 0;
if (*clippy_active == false) {
*clippy_active = true;
auto_activate_clippy_count++;
}
/* Clippy script routines */
switch (auto_activate_clippy_count) {
case 0:
ClippyBeCute();
ClippyActCute();
ClippyFlirtWithUser();
ClippyHelpUser();
break;
case 1:
ClippyFrownAtUser();
ClippyGiveColdShoulder();
ClippyDemandUserApologize();
ClippyRandomlyHelpUser();
break;
case 2:
ClippyDoubleInSize();
ClippyBrowBeatUser();
ClippyBeAnnoying()
ClippyOfferNoHelp();
break;
default:
if (auto_activate_clippy_count == sizeof(int)) {
ClippyFlippUserOff();
ClippySegmentFaultAndTheBSOD();
}
ClippyBePissedOff();
ClippyBugTheHellOutOfUser();
ClippyInterfereWithWork();
ClippyRefuseAnyHelp();
break;
}
return (auto_activate_clippy_count);
}

Re:Hmmmm

[mink]

What no "Share and Enjoy!"?

monkey!

[Paul Rose]

who else read as 'attack monkey' ?

Re:monkey!

[The_Wilschon]

You mean, as in, Bill Gates has a linux based attack monkey with frickin' lazers on its head, and we're supposed to follow it?

Re:monkey!

[zakkie]

We're more used to it being referred to by its name: Steve Ballmer... ;-)

Re:monkey!

[Anonymous Coward]

me

Re:monkey!

[lupinstel]

I also read attack monkey. It would have made this article so much more interesting. ooh! ooh! eep! eep! eek!

Re:monkey!

[nebulus4]

Apparently these are the monkeys from the Microsoft's Monkey Colony on Mars (more info here: http://www.mslinux.org/)

Re:monkey!

[BiloxiGeek]

Thanks, that was the best laugh I've had all day. I'll hold any future mod points on account for that post!

Re:monkey!

[dfjunior]

I did!

Re:monkey!

[Anonymous Coward]

isn't that Steve Ballmer's other title?

Re:monkey!

[DataPath]

I know I did.

Bill Gates has attack monkeys? Man, it's good to be king.

Re:monkey!

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, the details of Bill Gates' attack monkeys are already well known.

Re:monkey!

[zymurgy_cat]

I can see Clippy now:

Hi! It looks like you want to use your attack monkey! What would like to do?

• Permanently scar Linus' face
• Urinate on a copy of the GPL
• Throw razor sharp Linux CDs at poor children
• Use the "fling monkey feces" wizard

Re:monkey!

[Salandarin]

it IS attack monkey. just look.

You are such babes in the woods

[Anonymous Coward]

Why nothing seems to stop it

Don't tell me you actually believed that the "GNU/Linux revolution" would somehow change the rules of the game and that future business would be conducted on the basis of competence/performance alone instead of politics and money?

The fact is that competence and performance can never compete with politics, lock-in and big money. IBM, Sun and a few other corporations like Red Hat are adapting Free/Open Software in the way that actually matters. Cash in on that success, stop whining about the "Microsoft World", play the backstab/lobbying-game to the end and you just might win.

Re:You are such babes in the woods

[Ruie]

The fact is that competence and performance can never compete with politics, lock-in and big money. IBM, Sun and a few other corporations like Red Hat are adapting Free/Open Software in the way that actually matters. Cash in on that success, stop whining about the "Microsoft World", play the backstab/lobbying-game to the end and you just might win.

But having won that way would it be any different from losing ?

Re:You are such babes in the woods

[FunWithHeadlines]

"Don't tell me you actually believed that the "GNU/Linux revolution" would somehow change the rules of the game and that future business would be conducted on the basis of competence/performance alone instead of politics and money?"

Actually, the GNU/Linux revolution is a revolution. That means it didn't change the rules of the game, it created a whole new game and dared anyone else to play on their turf. Microsoft is deeply entrenched in the wallets of the corporate and political world. But FOSS has taken off despite that, and now has a great mindshare, far more than you would expect. But hey, they give you freedom, and never underestimate the power of freedom.

So yes, the old powers can play the old games of power and money. And dinosaurs are remarkably successful despite the gnawing of little mammals. Until one day they aren't. And a new era begins.

Re:You are such babes in the woods

[frankie]

would it be any different from losing ?

If large numbers of people ended up with FOSS on their desktop instead of MS products, yes, it would be a LOT different.

Re:You are such babes in the woods

[Anonymous Coward]

Cash in on that success, stop whining about the "Microsoft World", play the backstab/lobbying-game to the end and you just might win.

Perhaps, instead, that game should be ended. By force if necessary. It's happened many times throughout history. It can happen again.

Re:You are such babes in the woods

[Lorkki]

play the backstab/lobbying-game to the end and you just might win.

You'd be playing a fixed game against the dominant player. That's called "stupid".

I thought the whole idea was to make something better anyway. Taking MS down from its inflated position would be fine, but the point in replacing it with a Sun World or a Red Hat World completely eludes me.

Re:You are such babes in the woods

[mdmarkus]

And never forget that politics is what comes from the end of a gun.

Re:You are such babes in the woods

[Anonymous Coward]

Okaaaaaaaaaay.

So Linux will gain a marketshare to go with that mindshare after the IT equivalent of the KT Boundary?

How is that constructive? Effectively, using the 'dinosaurs versus the mammals' analogy, we're waiting for a much bigger version of some natural event that is already happening (in the case of the dinosaur extinction a massive impact from a meteorite).

Can you extend your analogy to fill in the blank as to what that event is for Microsoft versus Open Source systems?

Re:You are such babes in the woods

[FunWithHeadlines]

"So Linux will gain a marketshare to go with that mindshare after the IT equivalent of the KT Boundary?

How is that constructive? Effectively, using the 'dinosaurs versus the mammals' analogy, we're waiting for a much bigger version of some natural event that is already happening (in the case of the dinosaur extinction a massive impact from a meteorite).

Can you extend your analogy to fill in the blank as to what that event is for Microsoft versus Open Source systems?"

It already happened. The meteor is the GPL. You cannot do business as usual (if you are a rapacious beast, that is, intent on devouring all in your path) with the GPL. Microsoft has come to an almost dead halt in its efforts to fight Free and Open Source Software. Everything they have tried has failed, to a greater or lesser degree. They are gradually losing market share. They are rapidly losing mind share.

Re:You are such babes in the woods

[Nazadus]

How would it change anything? OSS and Microsoft software is just a tool, nothing more. For example, I can still use giFT for connecting to the P2P networks. But from what I infer from your post, I'm apparantly legal or a good guy or whatever. When is this community going to learn that it's not the OS you use that matters. It's if you get the job done. Then again, I *am* in the "Ford is better than Chevy" crowd.. where Chevy says the same thing. *sigh*

Re:You are such babes in the woods

[jc42]

The meteor is the GPL. You cannot do business as usual ...

Actually, if you want a better metaphor, the meteor should be compared with the growing problem of "malware" for Microsoft. This is starting to have an impact much more like that of the K/T meteor. And now that organized crime has jumped on the bandwagon and started doing identity theft in addition to the usual scams, the writing may be on the wall (to appropriate a metaphor that our religious friends might recognize).

This is a growing disaster for anyone marketing proprietary software. The only real solutions to problems like this require that the code be open and accessible to everyone (i.e., to competent programmers). As long as the code is hidden, most of us can't know about the coming problems or sensibly prepare for them. With open, analyzable source, we can find the problems and block them before they happen. But Microsoft so far is firm in their insistence that their code is not available to the public. For very good reason, it seems.

The GPL helps, but it is a legal document, and depends on government enforcement. It can be overwhelmed by the usual process of corporate bribery. It's valuable, but by itself, it can't protect us against corruption in the law-enforcement mechanism. The "settlement" in the case against MS is pretty good proof that the US Dept of Justice is now thoroughly corrupted at the highest levels, and can't be depended on to enforce little things like the GPL. Microsoft has made it clear that their attack on the GPL will be political, not legal, and they stand a good chance of winning with that approach.

Our main weapon is to push for the sort of openness that exists in most engineering areas. If you use a bolt or a resistor in your product, you can expect to get an exact spec giving full details on their capabilities. Nobody would build a building, bridge, or vehicle without detailed specs for every component. In most cases, it's illegal to hide the specs for such things.

The major exception to this is software. For some insane reason, we have accepted that the exact details of software's behavior may be hidden from customers by making the code secret. More and more, we are finding situations where people's property and funds, and sometimes their lives, depend on correctly-functioning software. But the software is hidden and unverifiable.

This isn't a tenable situation any more. And we just may have the disaster that proves it: the loss to "commercial interests" of databases containing financial and credit data for millions of people. This is directly attributable to the secrecy of the financial software. And that's attributable in great part to Microsoft's success.

It can't last. If it does, we are facing a total economic meltdown, as all the money that's just a number in a database goes "poof".

(Hmm ... Will this get "Funny" or "Flamebait" ratings? Or both? ;-)

Re:You are such babes in the woods

[mormop]

No wonder the world is so fucked up with people like you around.

In the entire history of mankind, how many forward steps have been made by defeatist's sitting on there arses saying "well that's just the way it is so get used to it". The Russians spent years living under Stalinist rule (not communist, Stalin may have been many things but a communist he wasn't) because people just sat back and accepted it. Millions of people have died because it was easier to turn a blind eye to the evils of their government's actions than it was to be be denounced as unpatriotic and fed to the brainwashed masses as a traitor.

In your world, George Washington would have said "yeah well it's crap being under English rule but what can you do eh" and Churchill would have said we'll fight them on the....... Oh Bollocks, what's the point. Let the bloody Nazi's have Europe and we'll get a welcoming commitee down to Dover Harbour to welcome them.

Ultimately, corrupt and amoral governments and institutions get away with because those they stand over allow them to. By advocating the act of benefitting from the status quo you have made yourself no better than the peasant that supported his king because it was better to receive the pittance paid for services rendered than it was to question why the king had 95% of the wealth and didn't have wallow in shit all day.

The irony of it is that you are hurting yourself as much as much as anyone else for nothing more than a lack of imagination. The Romans no doubt thought that their empire was eternal, the British never managed the thousand years they predicted and Hitler thank god only managed 6 odd years of military expansion before being put in his place. As for the Soviet Union, well the people of those countries bought that down with the help of Gorbachev. It's just a shame that he was subsequently stitched up in favour of Pisshead Yeltsin but at least he, and they were willing to gamble to improve their lot.

The amazing thing about power structures is ultimately they delude themselves into the same belief of invincibitlity that they use to scare those below them, forgetting that like all those that preceded they are ultimately destined to fall into a feeble shadow of their former glory.

On the other hand, you have achieved one thing. Normally I don't bother replying to Anonymous Cowards as I don't believe that such people can have any real belief in their own words if they're not at least willing to put even a username to their beliefs. Hell, not much of an achievement for you I know but better to have done one vaguely suprising thing in your life than skulk along in total mediocity.

Re:You are such babes in the woods

[Ogerman]

It already happened. The meteor is the GPL. You cannot do business as usual (if you are a rapacious beast, that is, intent on devouring all in your path) with the GPL. Microsoft has come to an almost dead halt in its efforts to fight Free and Open Source Software. Everything they have tried has failed, to a greater or lesser degree.

Open Source has made important inroads but lets not get carried away and start the celebrations right in the middle of the battle. It's all quite far from over and MS has plenty more tricks up its sleave with Longhorn, Office 12, and .NET. Fact is, OSS has made virtually no impact on the desktop or small/medium business server so far. This isn't going to change unless there's some fundamental rethinking of the whole OSS process. How so?

1.) Every significant end-user software project MUST be commercialized. The current rate of progress is insufficient to keep up with the proprietary giants, let alone have time left over for significant innovation. Volunteer / hobby labor is not sufficient. Major projects like OpenOffice, KOffice, Gimp, Gaim, Inkscape, Scribus, Mozilla, etc. which all aim to meet "mainstream" needs in turn need full-time, paid developers. Some already have them through corporate sponsors, but they need more.

2.) OSS developers need to focus on real solutions and not just raw materials that somebody else might find a use for. This is one of the prime reasons why existing OSS solutions are passed over.. they're far too costly to implement for smaller organizations. As example, it shouldn't require a Unix guru to set up a full-featured mail or file/domain server -- but it currently does. (Or you can spend nearly as much as the MS solution by going with a proprietary Linux distro to integrate the raw materials for you.. but then where's the benefit?)

3.) Many OSS developers need to quit wasting time with low-end technology like PHP and MySQL and move on to Java and PostgresQL. As a former PHP4/5 developer, now Java developer, I can honestly say that I'll never go back. PHP/MySQL definitely has its place for simple web tasks (as it was originally designed in its early days) but too many people believe PHP is something it's not and architecturally can never be. Open Source Java tools completely blow away everything that exists for PHP when it comes to doing real business application development. (incidentally, business apps are a major weak spot in the OSS landscape) It is unfortunate that people like ESR have poisoned the OSS world with lies about how Java should be avoided at all cost regardless of the fact that it is often the best tool for the job. Other than the trademarked name, Java is no more proprietary than C/C++. It's a language.. a tool. If the only good Java implementations are proprietary ones from IBM and Sun that's the OSS community's fault for not meeting the need as with other languages in the GCC suite. Lets put it another way: Java is the only real competitor to .NET at this point and even then it's a close race. The OSS community needs to fully embrace and support Java.

Solve these three problems and we'll see the true revolution happen. Ignore them and OSS will be destined to forever satisfy a niche market.

Re:You are such babes in the woods

[falconwolf]

As example, it shouldn't require a Unix guru to set up a full-featured mail or file/domain server -- but it currently does.

And it doesn't take a MS guru to setup a secure "full-featured mail or file/domain server" using Windows? I'd say it takes more knowledge to setup a secure server using Windows. Sure Windows is easier to use as a desktop OS especially for casual users but unices (plural of unix) is getting better for the desktop, and in the back office/server room it's different. Commercial software and FOSS both have their places.

MySQL and move on to Java and PostgresQL

There's another option for DBs, Firebird , which is based on Borland's Interbase. Though I've only recently installed it I hope to learn it soon.

Re:You are such babes in the woods

[Ogerman]

And it doesn't take a MS guru to setup a secure "full-featured mail or file/domain server" using Windows?

It takes experience, but not necessarily a high level of specialized expertise. You can grab any of hundreds of books available on Windows Server admin and be up and running in a day at most. You really can't say that for a Linux server purposed for Samba or mail and running a stock free distro like Debian or Fedora. Assuming no prior knowledge of the software (only general Unix admin skills) it can easily take a solid week to figure out how to properly install and integrate say.. Postfix + Cyrus + OpenLDAP + Amavis + Spamassassin + OpenXChange as a real working solution comparable to Exchange2003 for a corporate office. If you're a Windows admin on staff at some company, are you going to spend that much time on a project not guaranteed to work due to your non-Unix-guru status? Probably not.. even if you toy around with Linux at home for kicks or to stay up on the latest. This is what I'm getting at. Today's Windows admins need to be the target audience of OSS. We HAVE to meet people where they're at or it's a no-go. Regarding security, you shouldn't have to be a guru on ANY platform to achieve security. If you do, it's a design failure. Both Windows and *nix currently fail in this category. That's why there's a growing market for security consultants.. companies don't necessarily trust their own admin staff to be perfect!

Commercial software and FOSS both have their places.

FOSS can and should be commercial software. It just isn't proprietary. (I'm increasingly trying to get people to use this terminology instead of the inaccurate commercial == proprietary)

Firebird , which is based on Borland's Interbase. Though I've only recently installed it I hope to learn it soon.

True.. I haven't had time to look at it much but should have made mention. I don't know offhand how it compares to PostgresQL, though I've little doubt it is ahead of MySQL in most areas. :) Good luck learning it.

Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

Soon they'll announce linux has ties to terrorist!

Re:Microsoft

[MikeMacK]

Yeah, didn't you hear, it was created by Abdul (AKA "Linus") Torvalds from the terrorist state of Norway (which I believe just missed "Axis of Evil" status).

Re:Microsoft

[SkjeggApe]

As much as I would love to claim Linus as a fellow Norwegian, I can't given that he's from Finland. (And If I did, like MikeMacK does, I'd be worried about a bunch of angry drunken finns tracking me down, looking for somewhere to stick their knives...(Not that all finns are drunks, or knife weilders, but I'd be worried nontheless...))

Re:Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

On a more serious note, these days when I'm asked why I run Linux I normally reply "Because I love freedom". Freedom to decide on how my own systems will operate; freedom to modify and customise my own equipment as I choose.

Linux : for freedom lovers everywhere.

Re:Microsoft

[MikeMacK]

Oops...yeah, Finland is what I meant (nudge, nudge, wink, wink), but hey, Finland, Norway, Sweden...whatever...let's just go with he's Scandinavian.

Re:Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

Didnt the 9/11 terrorists use a Micrososft Flight Simulator program to practice flying? There is your terrorist connection.

Re:Microsoft

[SeekerDarksteel]

Hey, if you're not blindly giving your money to GOOD WHOLESOME PATRIOTIC *Cue Fireworks* AMERICAN CORPORATIONS *Flag Wave* then the terrorists have already won!

Re:Microsoft

[nanop]

Other's already have.
See Jeffrey Vernon Merkey's court complaint against, well... everyone.
An excerpt from the "FACTS COMMON TO ALL CAUSES OF ACTION" section:

42. Much of the activities of Linux and OSS have served to create a funneling system allowing sensitive and advanced technology created by computer technology companies in the United States to be illegally exported out of the United States and into the hands of the citizens of other countries.
43. As a result of these activities, a large portion of US technology has been unwittingly placed into the hands of various groups around the world, including Al-Queda, and other groups who sponsor international terrorism.
44. As a result of these activities, a large portion of US technology has been unwittingly placed into the hands of various groups around the world, including radical governments and groups who sponsor and have used the technology in support of the creation of weapons of mass murder and mass destruction designed to murder American Citizens and their families.

Re:Microsoft

[MyLongNickName]

And let me guess... the people you tell this to just kinda nod their heads and say "um... okay".

About as brilliant as naming a sanitary napkin "StayFree"

Re:Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

Man, when you put your foot in it, you go in up to the hip! Finland is not Scandinavian!

Re:Microsoft

[partenon]

Actually, "Lunix" was done by soviets: http://www.adequacy.org/public/stories/2001.12.2.4 2056.2147.html

--
8. Is your son obsessed with "Lunix"?

BSD, Lunix, Debian and Mandrake are all versions of an illegal hacker operation system, invented by a Soviet computer hacker named Linyos Torovoltos, before the Russians lost the Cold War.
--

Re:Microsoft

[ak3ldama]

lol, awesome. mod parent up. a microsoft flight sim is surely more weight than open source encryption tools.

Re:Microsoft

[MikeMacK]

Tell these guys.

Re:Microsoft

[grub]

About as brilliant as naming a sanitary napkin "StayFree"

Oh hell, my sides hurt from laughing at that. :)

Re:Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

which as we should realize is total bullshit, as you can either buy this "advanced technology" or pirate it.

but yes, it has been done

Re:Microsoft

[bnenning]

Holy crap. You stopped before it got really good:

46. The beheading and murder of United States Citizens in Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and other countries have been videotaped, converted to MPEG and other images for viewing on the public Internet through the use of OSS and Linux software and computer technology developed and purloined by Linux and OSS members and illegally exported from the United States.

This guy makes Darl look like the poster child for mental health.

Re:Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

"If you support linux you support terror. Are you with us or against us?"

Re:Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

Did they conveniently forget that the 9/11 terrorists used Microsoft Flight Simulators as part of their training?

Re:Microsoft

[KlomDark]

I thought you were kidding. Then I looked, and you are not at all. Insanity.

46. The beheading and murder of United States Citizens in Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and other countries have been videotaped, converted to MPEG and other images for viewing on the public Internet through the use of OSS and Linux software and computer technology developed and purloined by Linux and OSS members and illegally exported from the United States.
47. Companies which sponsor, endorse, and support OSS and Linux, and those acting in concert as their advocates have been unwitting participants in wholesale technology theft of United States developed technology and sponsors of domestic and international terrorism.

48. Companies which sponsor, endorse, and support OSS and Linux, and those acting in concert as their advocates have been unwitting participants in wholesale technology theft of United States developed technology and sponsors of efforts to undermine the Government of the United States and the economic stability of computer technology development and industry within the United States.

49. Companies which sponsor, endorse, and support OSS and Linux, and those acting in concert as their advocates have been unwitting participants in wholesale technology theft of United States developed technology and sponsors of the creation of weapons of mass murder and mass destruction by the enemies of the United States.

49. Companies who attempt to protect their rights to their intellectual property by filing lawsuits against members of Linux and OSS are attacked publicly on the public Internet through a variety of means, including identity theft, defamation, interference in their business and cultural relationships, violation of their rights of expressive association and freedom of speech, threats to murder them, intentional infliction of emotional distress to the extent they take their own lives, and Internet postings advocating they commit suicide.

50. Many of these methods employed by OSS and Linux Community members to oppress and suppress public viewpoints they do not agree with, do not differ in any way and in many cases resemble the same methods employed by international terrorists to promote their causes, in that they advocate through the posting of messages, emails, and public statements to Internet websites: murder, violence, death, oppression, mob mentality, intentional infliction of emotional distress, terror, defamation, identify theft, character assassination, threats to murder or firebomb the homes of individuals, and threats to overthrow governmental systems.

51. Although OSS and Linux both state goals and ideals which are attractive, such as freedom to innovate, freedom to develop new technology, and free access to software and computer technology, efforts by competing open source efforts to develop or create new development communities are routinely attacked publicly by OSS and Linux members through a variety of oppressive means over the public Internet, such as threats of: murder, violence, death, oppression, mob mentality, intentional infliction of emotional distress, terror, defamation, identify theft, character assassination, threats to murder or firebomb the homes of individuals, and threats to overthrow governmental systems.

52. Many of these activities fall within the definitions under the Patriot Act and other Federal Legislation designed to protect the American People as acts of domestic terrorism.

Is this come kind of joke?

Re:Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

This guy obviously has never heard of SELinux. Someone might want to point out to him where it came from.

Re:Microsoft

[Mr.Progressive]

Heh...

"32. Defendant slashdot.org is an far-right wing Internet news website that posts libelous and defamatory content and is used by Open Source Community members to anonymously post hate speech, death threats, threats to murder and promotes and advocates acts of domestic terrorism within the United States. The address and location of defendants is believed to be within the State of California, but is unknown at the present time."

W... T... F...?

Re:Microsoft

[autOmato]

And if I remember correctly his mother tongue is Swedish.

Re:Microsoft

[subtropolis]

"holy crap!" and "Insanity!" were the first things i said (rather loudly) on reading this. This is FUCKING OUTRAGEOUS!!

I noticed that slashdot is a defendant. Does anyone know what "DOES 1 through 200" means in this context? Are they talking about UIDs?

And the plaintiff is one Jeffrey Merkey, while one of the defendants is Matt Merkey. Can anyone shed some light here? I know i can just read the complaint; i'm looking for background. Who the fuck is this Jeffrey shitbag?

Re:Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

Seems more like an emotional diatribe rather than a formal pedantic complaint to me.

Re:Microsoft

[sp0rk173]

i need to come back to this and check this out.

Re:Microsoft

[zoloto]

27. Defendants Groklaw.com and Groklaw.net ("Groklaw") are Internet websites which are alter-egos of Pamela Jones and are operated by Pamela Jones and hosted by the University of North Carolina. These websites are extreme right-wing and, among other things, seem to predominantly promote messages of hatred and violence directed against members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints ("Mormons") , and against business entities who employee, are funded by, owned by, or operated by Mormons. These websites also attack other groups who support or espouse cherished beliefs or positive views of Native American Society, Culture, and Spirituality.

I've been reading groklaw for a while now, but have NEVER seen anything that would defame any religious or spiritual groups on that site by PJ or anyone else, aside from comments (which I have never read to date).

What gives? Looks like I will have to file a complaint against this individial myself and set some things straight.

Re:Microsoft

[CODiNE]

This one is cute:

32. Defendant slashdot.org is an far-right wing Internet news website that posts libelous and defamatory content and is used by Open Source Community members to anonymously post hate speech, death threats, threats to murder and promotes and advocates acts of domestic terrorism within the United States. The address and location of defendants is believed to be within the State of California, but is unknown at the present time.

Yeah... really right-wing here. Read the comments on any article related to science, religion or "intelligent design" theories to see just how "right-wing" slashdot is. I never knew anti-religious atheism was such an extreme form of "the right."

Slashdot is hardly the place to sit around chatting about good ole' pork-barrel politics and the supremacy of the Christian religion. Yeah, nobody around here wants any kind of change in society. ;-)

Re:Microsoft

[indiechild]

It's a fucking joke, but the sad thing is that there will be people who take him seriously.

Re:Microsoft

[St. Arbirix]

Per an article in Reason about this, Paypal will suspend your account if you link to those videos and they find out about it.

Re:Microsoft

[Mac_D83]

"Is this come kind of joke?"

I sure hope so -- read what he has to say about slashdot.org

"32. Defendant slashdot.org is an far-right wing Internet news website that posts libelous and defamatory content and is used by Open Source Community members to anonymously post hate speech, death threats, threats to murder and promotes and advocates acts of domestic terrorism within the United States. The address and location of defendants is believed to be within the State of California, but is unknown at the present time."

If this isn't a joke, then this person is insane. He claims so many unfounded things that I doubt he will get further than the hearing. The judge will hopefully see right trough his allegations and dismiss the case.

Michael Mc Donnell

Re:Microsoft

[XTbushwakko]

huh? what's the picture of finland saying? Like norway has beautiful nature, denmark has cosy towns, sweden has a fantastic coastal "riviera" and iceland has exceptional landscapes... Oh, in Finland there is this white thingy, with lots of people in front of it, it's a must-see!

Re:Microsoft

[bhiestand]

51. Although OSS and Linux both state goals and ideals which are attractive, such as freedom to innovate, freedom to develop new technology, and free access to software and computer technology, efforts by competing open source efforts to develop or create new development communities are routinely attacked publicly by OSS and Linux members through a variety of oppressive means over the public Internet, such as threats of: murder, violence, death, oppression, mob mentality, intentional infliction of emotional distress, terror, defamation, identify theft, character assassination, threats to murder or firebomb the homes of individuals, and threats to overthrow governmental systems.

Wow, this guy really DOES read slashdot!

Re:Microsoft

[alerante]

The irony in the name "Merkey Law" really pops out at you, doesn't it?

VarBusiness Magazine

[Anonymous Coward]

VarBusiness Magazine?

Never heard of it... and judging by the typo errors in their headlines, I'm betting I don't ever hear of them again.

Microsoft wins on so many fronts

[OffTheLip]

The sheer amounts of cash microsoft has at its disposal distorts all things including politics. The recent Gattes world health initiatives and other gestures of good will insure M$ remains a dandy in the eye of the general public. Now their enemies are another story...

Re:Microsoft wins on so many fronts

[shmlco]

Uh huh. And which half of the family fortune have you given away to charity recently?

One may not like how he got there, but one does need to give credit where credit is due.

And personally, if I had been responsible in the early days for promoting my products and making my company successful, I'm not sure how many things I would have done differently...

Re:Microsoft wins on so many fronts

[dlapine]

I'd be happy to donate 50% of the family fortune over the first billion to worthy causes. One does need to tuck a little away for rainy days.

And just where and how do you think he obtained that family fortune? Face it folks- we're living in a new age of robber barons.

Counterattack Plan...

[Blackbrain]

We could probably get Tova Torvalds an advisory position with IndyMedia...do you think it would help?

Re:I don't get it

[Anonymous Coward]

I totally know what you mean (without trolling). My father accepted it well enough (hell, he even told me it was sometimes nicer than Windows) but for the rest of the family it was a no-no. I was keen to learn but the RPM hunt and the randomness of program functioning is what bought me back to Windows.

No kidding!

[JayJay.br]

Here in .br, while the whole world sees us as a big case for FLOSS / Linux, the results of this so greatly announced program are yet to be seen. I've been involved in a government project or three, and I've seen things like they throwing away perfectly working Linux-based applications and changing them to Microsoft just to realize that it won't work.

In the end, more money goes to hire dozens of different software houses just to duct'tape the system to hell so that it half-assed works.

And I'm not even talking about the USA, where the market holds potentially more money for MS than here.

I know this was not exactly on-topic, and I've RTFA, but I had to say it.

They deserve to be

[Anonymous Coward]

They've worked hard. I mean, look at Politicians, Oil companies...it's obviously on their merit...right??

Simple Solution

[Anonymous Coward]

Ever see the Sci-Fi series Tech Wars?

maybe it's time to play for real.

Federal access

[teasea]

Microsoft has unparalleled influence throughout the Federal government.

If by unparalleled they mean, 'a lot, but not so much as oil and pharmaceuticals', then I might agree.
Anyway...

Re:Federal access

[dankasfuk]

Lets not forget #3 - good 'ol tobacco!

Re:Federal access

[Doctor Memory]

I doubt anyone is more "unparalleled" than Lockheed-Martin. The military-industrial complex just wouldn't be the same without them!

Re:Federal access

[quarkscat]

"Microsoft has unparalleled influence throughout the Federal government.
If by unparalleled they mean, 'a lot, but not so much as oil and pharmaceuticals', then I might agree."

Spot on target!
[Ahhh! ... oil and "pharacuticals"] - Dubya must constantly be flashing back to the good old bad old days, when he could do anything he wanted and fall back on his daddy's name and influence.
Do not forget that it was a change of "venue" (ie. the incoming Dubya regime) that allowed MSFT to "write their own" punishment after the DoJ monopoly conviction.

Historically, MSFT and many other big IT companies totally ignored the politicos when they were passing around their campaign contribution "hats".
After the DoJ monopoly conviction against MSFT, I can guarantee that few major IT companies ever made THAT mistake again. And once the "lesson" was learned, there was no need for the politicos to cripple their new found campaign contributors.

MSFT has never engaged in a single direct frontal attack against their competitors, including linux.
Instead, they have followed the principles outlined in the "Art of War". (Not unlike how China is now "dicing and slicing" the USA's economy...)

Re:Federal access

[HMA2000]

Why just pin it on Dubya? Did you think it didn't go on before and won't go on afterwords? Do you think it only touches the president and not the 435 reps and 100 senators and 50 govs and their respective legislative bodies?

You are one of the reasons that honest, productive political debate has become all but impossible in America, your blinding *PERSONAL* hatred for a single individual has shut off your brain and your vitriolic attacks lead only to flame wars. Do us a favor and keep your insanity and tunnel vision to yourself.

Re:Federal access

[HappyDrgn]

You give Bush far too much credit. That or you're just filled with enough rage that you'll subscribe to any conspiracy theroy involving Bush.

Re:Federal access

[pdo400]

Yeah, too bad he doesn't wield enough power to start a war and sacrifice innocent lives over his *PERSONAL* hatred for a single indiviual.

Of course, maybe he's not the type of person who'd ask your sons and mine to die because our daddies tried to kill one another and failed.

Re:Federal access

[jc42]

Why just pin it on Dubya? Did you think it didn't go on before and won't go on afterwords?

Actually, there's a lot of data about this available online. One of the big changes at Microsoft in 2004 was a huge increase in campaign contributions. They went from being an insignificant source of campaign funds to one of the largest contributors.

While they contributed to a lot of campaigns, most of their contributions are fairly well documented as having gone to the Bush/Cheney campaign funds, either directly or indirectly via such routes as PACs. They were one of Bush's largest contributors.

It wasn't long after the election, of course, before the Justice Department caved and essentially gave Microsoft a free pass for their past and future transgressions. This has been widely understood as payoff, of course.

But all it really means is that Microsoft has faced up to the way that large organizations like governments (and many megacorporations) work. They have moved to a "marketing" approach that's better for this market than what has worked so well with the non-technical public. A true cynic would call this a rational marketing decision.

Re:Federal access

[jratcliffe]

and farmers, and the AARP, and...

Re:Federal access

[killjoe]

LOL a republitard calling the pot black. Here let me say the word "CLINTON" and watch the veins on your forehead pop.

Oh well the grandparent hates america, is a traitor and loves terrorists like all democrats.

Re:Federal access

[HappyDrgn]

Why is it that when you appose an absurdly baseless conclusion about Bush you're instantly labeled something such as a "republitard"? You know, there are other non-mainstream parties in this country that can pull the stick out for a moment and side with reason from time to time. As for Clinton, I liked the guy.

"...loves terrorists like all democrats"

You got me there ;)

Re:Federal access

[quarkscat]

"Oh well the grandparent hates america, is a traitor and loves terrorists like all democrats."

Not! But I also have problems with the alliance between Clinton and the Gingrich Congress that brought us NAFTA, without any of the "leveling of the playing field" add-on legislation that was to follow.
IMHO, Clinto should have left the Mexican regime flounder in bankruptcy, rather than bail them out, push for NAFTA, and open the borders for the ensuing invasion. And I do admit that the DoJ anti-monopoly lawsuit against MSFT was brought forward under the Clinton administration - it's purpose just got twisted into Dubya's new fund-raising effort.

Actually, I consider myself to be a patriot - albeit not one that accepts the current regime's propaganda machine as "truth", no matter how many times it is repeated. The regime's allies in the Congress and church pews, oxymoronically named "neo-cons" (make that neo-Con(artists), not compassionate onservatives", okay?) have abandoned the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and the truth, all in favor of the Dubya agenda.

I realize and acknowledge that such an admission places me squarely into the camp of the loyal opposition. As Dubya once said "If you are not for me, you are against me (and if you are against
me, you must be a terrorist, too!)" Symantics. One man's freedom figher is another man's terrorist.

Isn't it strange that nearly four full years after the anthrax letters were mailed to the leadership of Bush's opposition, no progress has been made in catching the perpetrators? Beyond, of course, determining that the Ames strain of anthrax was a direct DNA match to that found at the US Army's bio-weapons facility at Ft. Detrick, MD?

Re:Federal access

[teasea]

and farmers, and the AARP, and...

Read all the responses to my comment. This one captures my point most precisely, for it doesn't assume it's just one individual or party doing this.
Bush is just the spearpoint. He's not responsible. Though the well-planned attack of the religious right has a lot to do with further skewing our country's ability to carry on a rational debate about anything.

I just wish I had a solution.

Re:Federal access

[killjoe]

"Why is it that when you appose an absurdly baseless conclusion about Bush you're instantly labeled something such as a "republitard"?"

Because I can not fathom a situation in which a rational, intelligent, well informed human being would not bash Bush every chance they get. The man can barely speak, speaks to god every day, has said publicly that god told him to invade iraq, has runied this economy, has lied about going to war, has killed tens of thousands of innocent civillians in order to put down an "insurgency" and on top of it all is completely detached from the reality.

Re:Federal access

[HappyDrgn]

Because I can not fathom a situation in which a rational, intelligent, well informed human being would not bash Bush every chance they get.

Perhaps it's that rational, intelligence and being well informed will grant an opportunity to challenge legitimate issues without resorting to baseless "bush bashing"?

Re:Federal access

[killjoe]

To a republitard all criticism of Bush is BushBashing (TM). That's because the republitards think the God himself annointed Bush as the holy warrior to ignite the jihad against the muslims and to facilitate the return of Jesus.

So what do you mean "baseless bush bashing"? So when I say that Bush ruined the economy is that bashing him? When I say he can't speak better then a 10th grader is that bush bashing? When I say that he has killed tens of thousands of people trying to put down an insurgency is that bashing? Have you ever thought for even one second that those things are true and verifiable?

Let me put something into your little republitard brain and lets see if it can fit in there.

Saddam Hussein in trying to put down an insurgency by the Kurds gassed an entire town killing thousands of innocent people.

George Bush in trying to put down an insurgency bonbed the shit out of falluja twice killing thousands of innocent people. The second bombing according to the BBC destroyed 75% of the town. Also according to the BBC the phospor laden bombs we used melted the skin off of the people.

At least Saddam left the building in place huh?

Re:Federal access

[HappyDrgn]

So what do you mean "baseless bush bashing"?

If you read the thread in context i was referring to the comments made by the grandparent where a conclusion was drawn that bush somehow had his hand in the end result of the microsoft trial. Far fetched at best and certainly giving bush a bit to much credit. I certainly don't believe bush has the mental capacity to do such a thing. Do you? BTW: You seem to have a lot of misguided aggression, you might want to try focusing that on something other than trying cheap shots on message boards.

Following...

[halber_mensch]

Did anyone else read "Following Gates' Linux Attack Monkey"???

At first I thought this was a biography of Ballmer...

Re:Following...

[Anonymous Coward]

Suddenly overcome by dyslexia I read:
"Following Bill Gates; Linus attacks Monkey"

Re:Following...

[muhgcee]

I am glad I am not the only one . . .

Good!

[Spy der Mann]

I'm glad that this info becomes public. I just hope it makes it to yahoo! news or something *actually* popular.

visual scanning error upon first read

[Tumbleweed]

At first I thought that said, "Linux Attack Monkey," and hey, that actually sounds pretty neat.

Re:visual scanning error upon first read

[Omega697]

Ahh yes, but does it run-
Oh. It does.

Re:visual scanning error upon first read

[Anonymous Coward]

Very clever! See a good joke and then repost it in the hopes of collecting up karma from mods who didn't catch it the first time.

Maybe you should have waited until at least ONE OTHER POST was made though, that might have made it less obvious.

Re:visual scanning error upon first read

[Tumbleweed]

I actually didn't see it before posting, but think what you want. I have _zero_ need for more karma at this point.

Re:I don't get it

[Anonymous Coward]

Gotta love the frustrated nubs, eh?

Re:I don't get it

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice troll you dirty skank.

Conspiracy Theories

[Kaorimoch]

Not as much substance as I hoped as the article 'follows the money'. More conspiracy theories than anything else.

It certainly shows Microsoft repenting of its earlier mistake for not paying off politicians like all the other major corporations did so they didn't get investigated for violating laws. I'm sure all these wonderful contributions will keep it safe from further litigation and give it more power to manage the law making process as time goes on.

Re:Conspiracy Theories

[erroneus]

I think they could have written a lot less by saying:

"Microsoft, AKA The BSA, AKA Preston Gates, gives a lot of money to a lot of politicians, many of which are directly involved in matters which are relevant to Microsoft's defense and ongoing business plans."

Democracy is a joke

[DrugCheese]

I think I read it here somewhere awhile back and I totally agree, America IS a corperate Oligarchy

The system is indeed for sale

Re:Democracy is a joke

[Anonymous Coward]

not sure why this is offtopic??
makes sense to me

Re:Democracy is a joke

[Anonymous Coward]

"The truth is, son, it's a buyers market, they can afford to pick and choose"
-to have and to have not

Re:Democracy is a joke

[Anonymous Coward]

Not AMERICA just the USA...

Re:Democracy is a joke

[ThisIsFred]

Probably been as much since after the Civil War, or at least the turn of the 20th century. I don't see why it needs the word "corporate" to qualify it, though. People regularly place large chunks of their wealth in other people's hands, and give up freedoms and rights to a select few because it's convenient. "Why can't someone else do it?" Doesn't matter if that group is a private corporation or not, the issue is that a relatively small group of people have easy access to lots of wealth, and little accountability for their actions.

Re:Democracy is a joke

[DrugCheese]

Amen Fred

But what can be done?

sure

[nomadic]

Microsoft has unparalleled influence throughout the Federal government.

Oh puh-lease. There are plenty of companies with that kind of clout; there are plenty with a hell of a lot more. Compared to Halliburton or McDonnell-Douglas or Boeing, Microsoft is strictly amateur hour.

Re:sure

[BewireNomali]

agreed.

not sure what that says though. it would seem that capital hill is behind the curve as far as payola is concerned. it implies a corrupt government that is resistant to changing its own corrupt policies. *shudders*

Re:sure

[Anonymous Coward]

"companies with that kind of clout; there are plenty with a hell of a lot more. Compared to Halliburton or McDonnell-Douglas"

Considering that McDonnell-Douglas doesn't exist anymore....yeah, I'm going to totally disregard your comment as someone who has no clue what is going on.

Re:sure

[g3000]

Compared to Halliburton or McDonnell-Douglas or Boeing, Microsoft is strictly amateur hour.

Not knowing the stats, I'd tend to agree that Halliburton, Boeing and others of that ilk could have bigger or more longstanding influence in general, but I wouldn't say Microsoft is so far down on the list as to be "amateur hour." Who has more potential to affect the entire working infrastructure of the government and its offices (and the associated costs, more importantly) than they do? Not many companies.

Re:sure

[vettemph]

But who has the power to spy on everyone via the "ever improving" operating system. M$ is the governments back door into everyone and everything.

By clicking OK you agree to install M$-GOVT on your PC.
. [ OK? ] [ WTF? ]

Re:sure

[Laser Lou]

Considering that McDonnell-Douglas doesn't exist anymore....yeah, I'm going to totally disregard your comment as someone who has no clue what is going on

Agreed. I can't believe no one modded this up.

Re:sure

[JerkyBoy]

Amateur hour or not, the following should pique your interest:

In Figure 5, one can see that the Chairman of the Senator Judiciary Committee received funds for re-election from Microsoft. This is the same Microsoft that the same the committee questioned with regard to the last Federal anti-trust settlement.

And with regards to the paper, rather than digital, trail of campaign contributions:

One might consider this an ideal scenario for a monopolist whose compliance audits related to its settlement with the Department of Justice exist in secrecy.

With regards to the settlement, Ralph Nader had this to say:

It is astonishing that the agreement fails to provide any penalty for Microsoft's past misdeeds, creating both the sense that Microsoft is escaping punishment because of its extraordinary political and economic power, and undermining the value of antitrust penalties as a deterrent. Second, the agreement does not adequately address the concerns about Microsoft's failure to abide by the spirit or the letter of previous agreements, offering a weak oversight regime that suffers in several specific areas. Indeed, the proposed alternative dispute resolution for compliance with the agreement embraces many of the worst features of such systems, operating in secrecy, lacking independence, and open to undue influence from Microsoft.

Have a look at the people involved in the antitrust case against MS:

Phil Bond: Undersecretary of Commerce for Technology. Bond is the highest-ranking appointed official who deals with technology. He is the former top aide to U.S. Rep. Jennifer Dunn (R-Wash.), whose district includes Microsoft's hometown of Redmond. Bond's top policy aide at Commerce was Connie Correll Partoyan, the former executive vice president of TechNet (a Microsoft-funded trade association), who recently took a lobbying job for the law firm Preston, Gates, Ellis & Rouvelas Meeds.

William Kolasky: Appointed deputy assistant attorney general for international enforcement for the Justice Department's antitrust division in October 2001. Kolasky was a lawyer for the Association for Competitive Technology, a group whose largest contributor is Microsoft, and wrote a friend of the court brief supporting Microsoft in its antitrust lawsuit.

Ed Gillespie: Until recently, he headed the Republican National Committee. Gillespie helped build the Republican party and identified candidates for state and federal elections. He has returned to Quinn Gillespie & Associates. Prior to becoming the head of the RNC he was a Microsoft lobbyist. Microsoft paid his lobbying firm, Quinn Gillespie & Associates, $1.2 million between 2001 and 2003, according to the Center for Public Integrity.

Richard Wallis: Microsoft's associate general counsel chairs the American Bar Association's antitrust section. This group influences how much oversight federal judges have over antitrust settlements. In late June, a U.S. appeals court rejected claims that Microsoft's 2001 deal with the government was too lenient.

Re:sure

[Politburo]

omg he said Mc-D instead of Lockheed.. this clearly invalidates his post.

Re:sure

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft is strictly amateur hour.

This is hardly true. Even years ago, a CCIA report (submitted to the court during the MS antitrust case -- admittedly CCIA is/was a critic of MS) called Microsoft's political influence "in many ways unprecedented in modern political history." One Seattle based study/article placed Microsoft as the number three corporate political donor. Nor can one discount the effect of policy groups, think tanks, and industry groups financed by the corporation but not accounted for in lobbying and political contributions.

There have been a number of shareholder efforts attempting to get MS to either prohibit unregulated soft money contributions or publish policies for such spending. Here for example.

Anyway, this is a tiny bit of the info that's out there. Just possibly, Microsoft is more than an amateur in political influence.

Re:sure

[tadelste]

You're correct about Microsoft being down the list as far as money spent -- hey, I agree with you.

But a difference exists. Lockheed Martin is the largest spender BTW. The larger spenders have something of a product to sell like Stealth Bombers and Missle Guidance Systems, Laboratories, etc. I worked at a M&O contracter after college.

I worked at a DOE lab that cost more than Microsoft has sold the government. So, this is not about government sales.

It's about influencing people to keep them from preventing Microsoft from getting the rest of us. This is about letting Microsoft harvest money from the people.

That's a huge difference and they have unparalleled power in that domain./p

Re:sure

[nanowyatt]

And if you include non-corporate groups, like government employee unions, then even Halliburton is small potatoes.

Re:sure

[tbradshaw]

McDonnell-Douglas still exists, it's just now the military wing of Boeing Aerospace. It's pretty much fully intact.

(Due to agreements with the EU, Boeing is contractually obligated to keep the commercial and military wings of their business seperate.)

Re:sure

[aug24]

This is what always amazes me: so many people in the states know this, yet it still goes on.

Time for another civil war perhaps? Or you could always ask to come back into the fold and get ruled by Tony Blair. No, on the other hand, civil war is the better option.

J.

Re:sure

[XTbushwakko]

what? you can't trust Nader he's a pink-o commie AND he's an Iranien, so he's probably _MUSLIM_ and a terrorist!

Re:sure

[turgid]

Microsoft is strictly amateur hour.

As is plainly evindent from the quality of its software.

/me ducks.

Re:I don't get it

[Anonymous Coward]

So did you remember to turn the power back on after the Linux install?

than ever?

[rwven]

"Microsoft is as powerful than ever"

Someone wanna check this guys grammar? :-)

Re:than ever?

[Foolomon]

He wrote it in Word. Microsoft has so much power than they can change the English language thru t3h intarbutt!!!!!11!!1!

Re:than ever?

[beekr]

Scary stuff. I was shocked for read this, myself.

Re:than ever?

[TeknoHog]

I think it should read "then" instead of "than", following Slashdot and it's own grammer rules.

Re:than ever?

[Foolomon]

I think it should read "then" instead of "than", following Slashdot and its own grammar rules.

Fixed. A tad ironic, eh? :D

Re:I don't get it

[Vodak]

For every story about the ills of Linux in the home I can direct people to others who have a completely differnet view.

I agree. Linux is not yet ready for the low PC skilled home user. It still takes someone in the home with some Linux abilty to do the initital set up of the boxes.. but Linux as a desktop OS has grown by leaps and bounds. If you are someone who doesn't understand that then I can't help you.

Linux doesn't do everything right.. But it's not as evil or crappy as you make it sound.

So? Google has money too.

[Adolph_Hitler]

Let Google use its Microsoft attack money. Microsoft has serious competition now. Google has more power and influence than Microsoft and Google is already politically connected.

Re:So? Google has money too.

[Anonymous Coward]

until i see googleOS running on my PC, i don't think microsoft has much to worry about.

Amount of contributions

[leoval]

I am not sure, but donating US $5000 is enough to swing the vote of a US Senator ? From the article that is what the Preston Gates firm contributed to the guy (perhaps the table is listing the amount in thousands, who knows). If that is the case, then the hard times are hitting even Congress.

Re:Amount of contributions

[Anonymous Coward]

donating US $5000 is enough to swing the vote of a US Senator ?

Five dollars is enough to sway a senator, haven't you heard of the five dollar fucky sucky deal in the senate?

Re:Amount of contributions

[NoMoreNicksLeft]

I don't mean to discourage the notion that our leaders sell out cheaply, they certainly do. But documented campaign contributions are the tip of this iceberg, dive down below the surface with me.

There are golf trips, and trips to las vegas, or other places this senator needs to check out for him to be able to properly understand Microsoft and the plight of the industry regarding the federal government.

There are the neices and nephews with a different last name, that need a job out of college, that Microsoft hires.

There are the flights on corporate jets. The introductions to other powerful industry people, that both junior and senior senators need.

There's the promise of a cushy job if and when they do retire out of Congress.

The promise of indirect contributions come next election.

And once you consider that the $5000 is more like roughly $100,000 all things considered, and that it only required an hour here, and hour there throughout the year, never interfering with others giving him more or less the same benefits... would you pass over one more free grab at $100,000, when you're already selling out 5 times a day, and #6 won't be all that more difficult?

Re:Amount of contributions

[HangingChad]

There are golf trips, and trips to las vegas, or other places this senator needs to check out for him to be able to properly understand Microsoft and the plight of the industry regarding the federal government.

Oh, those are the easy ones to track. The more interesting ones involve "layovers" in places like the Caribbean. A layover doesn't technically count as a destination and frequently isn't reported.

Nice thing about stopping there...the laws governing certain activities...the kind involving really hot women from foreign countries...are lot less restrictive down there.

Kinda gives the term "layover" a whole new meaning if you catch my drift. You're on the right track, though.

Re:Amount of contributions

[14erCleaner]

the $5000 is more like roughly $100,000 all things considered

Thank you, you've restored my faith in our system. I was afraid that our Senators and Representatives were selling themselves too cheaply. I'm delighted to see that they're being properly compensated for their favoritism.

Looks MS part of cancer of corruption in Congress

[Bright_Steel]

Big money influence buying like this is a cancer on the body politic that will ruin the US or any other country if left unchecked.

It's time to investigate, prosecute, and start stuffing people in jail.

Re:I don't get it

[Approaching.sanity]

Your results will vary with what you start with. Had you been a Win user your entire life nad tried to change in a day? How is your background with computing? Which disto did you decided to try? Did you verify that what you wanted was supported?

Computers that are produced by the mass market are designed to run Windows, you need to take a moment and make sure that they can run Linux. And With Distros like Ubuntu there should be no reason they should not. Or what about Gentoo. Everything will work in Gentoo once you make it happen.

In short...

[Otter]

1) The lobbyist whose activities have gotten Tom DeLay in trouble used to work for a firm in which William Gates Sr. was a founding partner.

2) That same firm does some lobbying for the BSA and has some Microsoft connections.

Pretty thin stuff for three years work, I'd say, especially since if the Tom DeLay stuff hadn't just fallen out it would be even thinner. The biggest thing I can see here is a bit of nepotism on how the BSA chooses its lobbyists; maybe some of you will lose sleep over that.

Anyway, connection to Linux -- zero.

By the way: Why the coyness about referring to Ralph Nader ("a well-known consumer advocate") by name? This Adelstein guy seems like a bit of a nut, so I imagine the reason is nutty, but I can't quite guess what it might be.

Re:In short...

[Anonymous Coward]

Good points.

I'm willing to listen to him a few more times to see where it goes. He's already said that laying out the details will take a while, so it's not like he's claiming to have a smoking gun in this first report...only concerns and background information.

I do think that it is interesting that the Washington Post no longer(?) mentions Preston Gates.

Re:In short...

[everphilski]

Maybe because a lot of people consider Ralph Nader to be a nut...
-everphilski-

Re:In short...

[sharkey]

The lobbyist whose activities have gotten Tom DeLay in trouble used to work for a firm in which William Gates Sr. was a founding partner.

Well, he missed the tidbit about Gates being the lobbyist's father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate.

Re:I don't get it

[chocotof]

easy, if you have the amount of money MS has, the can FORCE hardware vendors to write drivers ONLY for MS or did you think that MS writes drivers for ATI, DSL e.a. hardware ? Linux is all about reverse engineering. NO hardware vendor (Besides a few exceptions) share info about their boards. Moreover hardware ALSO has bugs, writing drivers according to theoretical specs makes lots of 'cheap' cards break because using buggy chips. I just installed ubuntu out of the box on my brand new DELL D610 laptop and all worked perfectly. However I must admit that linux is NOT yet ready for real end users. Games is a notable shortcoming. Also LINUX still does require too much tinckering.

Don't forget me!

[khellendros1984]

Hey! I'm as powerful than ever too! YOu'd seriously think someone could proofread this stuff...

Re:I don't get it

[cenobyte40k]

Linux is great don't get me wrong but MS has the UI, Drivers and software down. And weather OSS likes it or not they are improving on every other front as well. Remember when everyone bitched day in and day out about how unstable windows was? Not so much anymore.

Re:I don't get it

[Anonymous Coward]

Is this flatfish?

Tinfoil Hats on now

[Anonymous Coward]

Eventually this will come back to bite them. When that happens there will be a million geeks worldwide to laugh at them :)

Anyone have connections with the DOJ?

MOD PARENT UP. Not a troll.

[bturnip]

Parent post is not a troll. First reply is a troll. I am Linux only household and it all works for me (mostly). Does that make trolls out of people who tried Linux and couldn't make it work? Oh right- Slashdot, where the inmates run the asulym and wanna-be do-nothings are the loudest critics. Do the loudest geeks and nerds all have the mentality of 4th graders? Oopps...asking for some rational thought. Mod me an unfunny troll.

Re:I don't get it

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm afraid that I agree. Linux is nice for us techies, but for real world use it's a complete hassle. Once the issues regarding drivers and hardware are solved, it might stand a better chance. But as it is, there's no way that a normal person would step away from the ease of Windows XP.

On my XP box, I haven't had a single bit of trouble for over a year. I haven't had to reload the OS, I haven't had any system crashes, etc. Whatever I plug in installs itself and it works. Why would I choose to hassle with Linux in that case? Now, for my DBA position I use Linux because I understand it, but your everyday Joe? Forget it.

If "using the right tool for the job"

[mi]

...is the accepted mantra, than why is anyone surprised?

Are you using Windows every day? Did you set up a Windows computer for your parents, grandparents, or other friends because FreeBSD/Linux/NetBSD/MacOS is "too complicated"? Then you are the problem...

Re:If "using the right tool for the job"

[hswerdfe]

Windows every day

yes, at work only, at home GNU/linux all the way

Windows computer for your parents

yes, back in 1999, I didn't make the switch myself till 2001, and till resent and I didn't feel I could efectivly remotely trouble shoot a machine.

Then you are the problem...

I agree, perhaps I should just go kill myself now, so long cruel world

Re:If "using the right tool for the job"

[Anonymous Coward]

What are you smoking? Linux and FreeBSD is still complecated even for me after 10 years in IT field. (I am not talking about Mac). Linux and most opensource products are not yet ready for prime time. That's the fact right now.

Re:If "using the right tool for the job"

[oGMo]

I completely, completely agree. Anyone who complains about Windows and Microsoft and yet makes no effort to use something else is simply an idiotic whiner who is the very reason why Microsoft doesn't bother to change. Users whine, but won't switch, so why do anything different?

Apple makes it easy now, too. Anyone who hasn't switched because "Lienux (sic) is hard" is, again, a whiner. I'm not overly impressed with OSX, but it's both easy for casual users and has decent commercial support (i.e. they can go to the store and expect to find stuff). I recommend it or Linux as appropriate. (Linux to the budding developer.)

If the box is just for email/web and nothing else, I just set up a tightly-configured Linux box. No one has complained; people find them very easy to use without instruction. There are plenty of Linux apps for everything from learning to type to making pretty graphics or writing a letter to grandma. This isn't 1993 anymore.

In summary, if you're complaining, not fixing, you're eligible for a Nitwits Anonymous club membership. :-)

Re:If "using the right tool for the job"

[Cro Magnon]

Not neccesarily. Perhaps FreeBSD/Linux/NetBSD ARE too complicated! I've found installing Linux to be YMMV. Some distros on some machines have installed easier than Windows. On other machines, even the "easy" distros don't always install properly. As for the Mac, they still tend to cost more than WinTel boxes, and convincing people that they're more than worth the price difference isn't easy.

Re:If "using the right tool for the job"

[C3ntaur]

Are you using Windows every day? Did you set up a Windows computer for your parents, grandparents, or other friends because FreeBSD/Linux/NetBSD/MacOS is "too complicated"?

I have not used Windows daily for several years now. My desktop and my laptop both run Linux. I don't even use Windows to play video games anymore.

I switched my mother to Linux over a year ago because I was tired of fielding "Help, Windows crashed and won't come out of Safe Mode" calls every other day. Now I get calls less than once a month from her, and they are because she wants to do something new or forgot how to do something -- not because of crashes and malware.

I've basically told the rest of my family that if they want computer support from me, then they'll have to switch to Linux too.

To me, "using the right tool for the job" means not funding the mob while I'm at it (I see no difference between Microsoft's business practices and those of organized crime), choosing something that isn't broken, and choosing something that will create as few trouble calls as possible.

Re:If "using the right tool for the job"

[Anonymous Coward]

I use linux myself because I'm sick and tired of having to run resource hogging programs just to keep myself from getting nasty things on my box and even then it's no gaurantee.

As far as installing windows on a friends or relatives box I've done that more times than I can count.It's not for lack of wanting to install linux, most of the people use it for simple tasks that require no real in depth knowledge of how linux works.It's the simple fact that people fear what they don't understand unfortunately.

For the few that I've installed linux they have had no complaints and it's so much easier to remotely troubleshoot than windows is.

I prefer to install linux but I still make a few bucks on the side fixing the windows boxes every now and then.It's kind of a mindset that people expect to have issues with their box every few months or so after all that's all they've ever known.

Re:If "using the right tool for the job"

[xmda]

While I agree with to some extent (I try to convince all my friends to use GNU/Linux, but no one has installed it yet), not all people have the knowledge or time to learn it.

Re:I don't get it

[Anonymous Coward]

did you try knoppix? www.knoppix.org .. did you try using a well supported version of linux? and most importantly did you sit down and ask the people actually using the software what they wanted to do with it and fit the flavor of linux/packages to their needs? i've used knoppix for several years, and always impressed with what they are able to do. p.s. how much did microsoft pay you to astroturf this comment?

If Gatesco owns Washington, then why aren't

[Anonymous Coward]

all you /. readers blaming Bill for getting GWB elected, 9/11, and our Iraq vacation? On a side note, statistically speaking, you're safer as a contractor in Iraq than the average metro Atlanta resident is in going about his daily business!

Anyway, go beat on gatesco for 9/11, GWB's victory, and every other USA evil...

Re:If Gatesco owns Washington, then why aren't

[webzombie]

UN-FUCKING-LIKELY!

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/warr iors/

All Google has to do is

[elucido]

Keep funding open source, maybe fund some political organizing tools, use its blogging power and internet portal power to help the anti Microsoft forces launch a pro open source anti Microsoft assault. Let's not forget you also have IBM, Apple, Novell, I don't think Microsoft has as much political power as the Linux community. The open source world is the most politically connected group in the industry right now. Most of the political software used by both parties arent being developed by microsoft, and a lot of essential tools such as blogging technology are owned by Google. Why do we even need Microsoft anymore?

well DUH

[SparafucileMan]

Five years after running afoul of the Feds, Microsoft is as powerful than ever. Pushing a platform instead of products could make it stronger still. Why nothing seems to stop it.'""

Well no sh** sherlock! I mean, I can think of 40 billion reasons right off the top of my head why this is the case...

Re:I don't get it

[A beautiful mind]

What about the other side? http://os.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=05/05/18/20 33216

Btw, GP is a blatantly obvious troll, i don't get how moderators can't see that. The "nothing works on linux" and "i returned to windows $someversion after $while" are dead giveaways.

Re:I don't get it

[Markus_UW]

You know, I find it odd that these people (Who likely tried Fedora) have all these problems (when the distro is supposed to configure everything for you), while when I install a "Geek Distro" like Slackware or Gentoo on my system, just about everything works perfectly (and my system's a Toshiba laptop, on which a clean install of WinXP has almost no functionality).

I don't know what these people put in their computers that make them work so poorly. (But i presume they're Dell or Gateway boxes, with lots of sketchy child-labour manufactured components).

Re:I don't get it

[toounknown]

I agree, BUT 95% of these problems stem from Microsoft having a stranglehold. Think about it. If you were a soft/hardware developer and you are trying to make a profit, you're going to develop your product on the most ubiquitous platform and only consider secondary platforms if market share (potential profit) warrants this. It's simple economics.

Linux/BSD variants have come a LONG way considering most of the functionality/drivers has been either creatively engineered by the community or obtained by lobbying vendors (resulting in drivers that only provide the most basic functionality).

Boost the installed base and provide demand for functionality in your OS, and vendors will respond.

Unfortunately these problems are difficult to solve because they are both a cause and a symptom of themselves. Not to mention the very active efforts of Microsoft to thwart any meaningful attempts at the adoption of alternate systems.

Just my 0.02$

Re:I don't get it

[MaxPowerDJ]

Linux is not ready for lower end-users. That's about the only thing I can find wrong with Linux. However, the applications for higher end users are many and development tools are plenty.

We just need to incorporate easier ways of doing things in Linux without compromising its flexibility as an OS.

Also, remember that manufacturers are responsible for releasing Win-hardware instead of making the hardware drivers available for all OS.

and you know what?

[ChiGodOfKarma]

They also control the black helicopters, Flying Saucers, and it seems that if you dig deep enough you find out that the Anal Probe(tm held by MS) was actually worked on in the late 70's by none other than Bill Gates himself. His new secret projects are being tested in a certain prison in Cuba as we speak. Anal Probe De-Virginater 2.0. or maybe you guys need to lighten up...

Re:and you know what?

[Dracos]

And when the Anal Probe crashes and displays its BSOD (blue sphincter of death), it really hurts to reboot it.

Didn't you star in home alone?

[Adolph_Hitler]

Is that you Mr. Culkin? Is Michael innocent?

Re:Didn't you star in home alone?

[Anonymous Coward]

Didn't you mass murder Jews and minorities?

Re:Looks MS part of cancer of corruption in Congre

[UnixRawks]

Case in point: ACLU

'nuff said.

can leap higher than...

[Digitus1337]

"...Microsoft is as powerful than ever. ... Why nothing seems to stop it." Not even the rules of grammar can stop Microsoft!

OMFG!!1!

[The Bungi]

Microsoft lobbies politicians in its favor!! Merciful heaven, what is the world coming to?? Because of course no other company in this country does this!! I mean, 8 thousand dollars?? And he had to do his little insert in the second listing to prove that Microsoft and Preston Gates are even in the list, with a whopping $3,500!!

And Melinda gates is in the beard of directors of a newspaper?? Holy shit, and is she in the board of directors of all the other news media outlets in this country? Inquiring minds want to know! At the very least we now now that she's not in the board of directors of LXer, which is apparently read by 8,500 people a day!! Conspiracy, I say!!

And the article is rated 10/10!! It must be true!!

And it took this guy three years to scoop this out!? Film at 11!

Re:OMFG!!1!

[BiloxiGeek]

And Melinda gates is in the beard of directors of a newspaper??
I wonder what the directors' wifes think of Mrs. Gates playing around in their facial hair?

Re:OMFG!!1!

[SpinJaunt]

actually the article was rated 100% by 10 readers before the /. stampede :(

Re:OMFG!!1!

[Wylfing]

And Melinda gates is in the beard of directors of a newspaper??

Gyyeeaaach.

IBM?

[Anonymous Coward]

IBM is the world's largest computer company, and it no doubt has lots of influence in the government. Has it been working to counter Microsoft's lobbying?

Re:I don't get it

[hcob$]

has the UI and software down? The only way the could have put it down is with a shotgun or a bomb... how else do you explain all the holes?

I was sure that said...

[be951]

On first reading, I was sure that headline said "attack monkey". I bet that would be a lot more interesting story.

Re:I was sure that said...

[vettemph]

who the hell needs another Ballmer story? :)

Re:I don't get it

[VolciMaster]

Before you start complaining here about anything, maybe you should have asked yourself, what do I want to be doing with my computer? I only boot Windows to play a few games I like. Everything else I do under Linux - with absolutely no problems. I can log into my router - with konqueror or firefox - play video and music files without skipping, and use all of my nVidia graphics card's available resolution (well, not quite all, but monitor won't support the max the card will).

If your DSL connection is running into your router, there's no reason for your provider to have stated that 'linux is not supported'.

And I hate to break this to you also, but I've owned a couple machines (with nothing wierd in them) that only Linux would install and boot up. My parents' last computer wouldn't run Win95, 98, or NT. But Mandrake 6.1 installed onto it fine, found all the hardware (including the unusual printer they have), and ran fine. (It was a 400Mhz K6-II with 256M RAM.)

I've set up Linux for a bunch of 'real average Jane' students, and they don't even notice a difference. After getting one set up with Mandrake, Firefox, and GAIM, her roommate came in and asked "oh, is that a new version of AIM?" not "what happened to windows?".

My roommate MS work centered around using Linux machines with video capture cards, so I don't know what you were trying to do that you couldn't. the All In Wonder cards from ATI are pretty popular, and have extensive driver support.

So, I'm calling complete bull on you. I'm not an ultra fanatical linux geek, either. I just use it, and it works. It takes no longer to boot than XP, and has far more useful application to me (lack of viruses, ease of ssh access to other machines, higher granular control over individual resources) than Windows ever has.

Re:I don't get it

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey flatfish, you're a whore.

msft probably pays developers to hassle projects

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd guess that developers paid by msft try to splinter and hassle oss projects, if this is the case, and it could be proved, then msft could be in serious trouble. The judicial process on msft is a joke, i wonder how many ppl in power still hold msft stock?

Troll or not?

[exp(pi*sqrt(163))]

Is it a troll or is it not?

Actually, I don't think it matters. Even if this is a troll it reflects many people's experience of Linux. I'm sceptical of the claim that konqueror couldn't display the router web page because I'm sure most routers use pretty basic HTML. And I'm sceptical about mp3s skipping unless this was a very old PC. But I've had plenty of problems with playing video (though mplayer is my player of choice even on MacOS X), printers, DSL configuration, and video cards. And to add one to the list, I still can't get any sound out of the SUSE box I use at work. (Yes, I'm sure it's a simple thing to fix, but the points is that with Windows and MacOS X I've never even had anything to fix.)

So I really don't think this should be modded troll.

Re:Troll or not?

[coulbc]

Maybe TCP/IP was incorrectly configured or the NIC was not recognized. Was a basic ping even attempted? The post gives no specific information. I say inexperienced may be a better description than troll.

Re:Troll or not?

[alexhs]

But I've had plenty of problems with [...] DSL configuration

The fact is, there is no problem with an ethernet ADSL modem. OTOH, an USB ADSL modem probably will be a hassle, if it works at all.

As with any OS, you should check that your hardware and OS are working together.
For example, I have some old hardware that won't work with Win2000 (a scanner, some ISA cards) but I won't blame MS on that.

Is it a troll or is it not?

It is : check the timestamp : less than three minutes to write that ? Premeditated troll I say.
Someone pointed me that you could find the reference searching for the text in google groups.

Re:Troll or not?

[exp(pi*sqrt(163))]

Maybe TCP/IP was incorrectly configured or the NIC was not recognized.

Of course a Windows or Mac user frequently doesn't even have no know that there is such a thing as TCP/IP to be configured. Last time I tried using a wireless card with Linux (maybe 12 months ago) I had to edit a couple of config files. It probably took me an hour to eventually gather the relevant information and get it working (and that required burning drivers onto a CD from a Windows machine because of course I couldn't actually do the download from the Linux box...). It wasn't hard for me, but it would have been next to impossible for inexperienced users.

Re:Troll or not?

[AaryaPatta]

"but it would have been next to impossible for inexperienced users." My USB wireless card doesn't work on any distros...I did everything I could from what I read from Linux fourms. I am a very experinced user in IT (sys admin). The same USB wireless card works in Windows and Mac.

Re:Troll or not?

[mike77]

I'm sceptical of the claim that konqueror couldn't display the router web page because I'm sure most routers use pretty basic HTML

I wouldn't be skeptical. I've got a router which I can only access form IE. I've got Windows, OSX, And diff flavors of unix (depending on my mood that day), and the damn router will only work w/ IE.

I would argue however that this is not Linux's fault. It's the *$%^%^%$^$! Manufacturers fault for putting out a crappy interface.

Just my $0.02

Re:Troll or not?

[iamwahoo2]

Most of the sound cards I have used required me to download drivers to get them to work.

Re:Troll or not?

[exp(pi*sqrt(163))]

Interesting problem. Have you tried looking into this. Is it an http problem or is the HTML bad. If you save the HTML from IE and try to reopen it from Mozilla, say, can you read it?

One of the things that I love about my Linksys router is that it's configurable from just about anywhere. It's one of the few things I didn't need drivers for.

Re:Troll or not?

[mike77]

I believe it requires IE for the active X (Not sure, it's been a while since I looked into it) built into IE. it's no big concern as we always have a windows box on our home network, but it does suck.

Re:I don't get it

[indy_Muad'Dib]

i know its a troll!!!

they signed it Stephanie and everybody knows there are no girls on the intarweb!!!111ononeone

Re:I don't get it

[footissimo]

I use Linux (Mandriva 2005LE to be exact) as a home system and I am not particularly knowledgeable (relatively) tech wise. I started using it as an experiment after XP started crashing on me regularly (it was that, or another format / reinstall). Everything on my system is detected and works without having to search the internet for drivers (which I have to do with XP). Its an arse to configure and I miss some of the games, but its just learning thing anew - now that I am more familiar with things I really appreciate the stability and not having to think about security all the time. It also looks a lot nicer - put a screenshot up and people think you are showing off. I certainly don't have any problems with music or video files - in fact I have fewer apps to deal with. I rarely need use the computer with XP on it these days.

If you can't be arsed to learn then thats fine, but for god's sake - at least get rid of ME!

Re:I don't get it

[Iriel]

There's serveral reasons that Linux doesn't work for a lot of people, and sometimes, I can sympathize. I actually run a Fedora 4 box and Windows 2000 right now, and this is my experience in the problems:

A lot of hardware doesn't work well for Linux (or takes an enormous amount of tweaking) because a lot of hardware vendors don't open source their drivers and so the community must be users and semi-hardware developers to help eachother to get things working. Although my nVidia 6800 GT actually gets better perforance in Linux than it did in windows ;) However, there is a giant community of users more than eager to help eachother out when getting started or even finding expert advice.

A lot of services don't work as well in Linux because the vendors don't see it worth paying someone else to support a platform with such a small user base and/or they don't want to learn a new system to support. Micro$oft has made sure that IE still won't comply with the new CSS standards in IE7, and with such a large percentage or the market, they enforce their proprietary garbage on everyone. This makes things incompatible on many platforms because a lot of companies only want to worry about the 80-90% of users that have Windows computers. It's been a somewhat recent trend to support the mac, and that's just plain sad. In time, we can hope that with the server market victories, the desktop can follow.

With about 8 bazillion different distros of Linux, it's possible that a person could pick up Gentoo and quit before they even have their system compiled, while other flavors are built to help people get used to Linux. Sometimes, people just get a really bad first impression. You just have to find the right customization for you.

The most important thing that I've seen holding Linux back is advocacy. I see many who are not advocates, but zealots (I used to be guilty too), and that scares many people away from trying it. Linux isn't for everyone, but I love it for certain purposes. I play games with Windows, and I program on Linux. It's a setup that works for me, but not everyone's story can be the same.

"Attack Monkey?? LOL"

[neurokaotix]

Am I the only person that reads all comments before posting one myself? Geesh.

Re:"Attack Monkey?? LOL"

[xMilkmanDanx]

Yes. You must be new here.

Re:"Attack Monkey?? LOL"

[Hitch]

yes

OK let me get this straight...

[Spy der Mann]

you had ABSOLUTELY ZERO LINUX experience and tried to switch YOUR WHOLE FAMILY to Linux?

Well that decision was worthy of a.... Windows user (pun intended) :P

Re:OK let me get this straight...

[Daedala]

That's what I was thinking.

I wouldn't do that with OS X, and I am a devoted, nay, obsessed Mac evangelist. Get ONE computer working how you want it. Let family members use it. Desensitize them. Find games and neat stuff. Make sure your peripherals work. Then ask for a volunteer. Check the hardware and make sure Linux thinks it can do that hardware, then install on another partition or drive. Let them dual boot for a while.

If you're feeling really evil, infect the Windows OS with spyware so it slows down. Stop supporting it. Delete the TCP/IP stack....

Really, this can be done with a little forethought. But simply switching everyone with no backup and no preparation is not gonna work.

Re:OK let me get this straight...

[Anonymous Coward]

I totally agree. That was the first thing I thought of. How about starting by installing OO and Firefox. Then, change one machine and get everything working.

Re:I don't get it

[NoMoreNicksLeft]

I tried switching the family over to JSF attack jets over the summer
vacation and the wails of terror, utter anxiety, and lack of any flight training whatsoever was enough to crash the jets straight into the ground.
So why all the troubles?
Afterall JSF pilots love to tell stories of how the JSF is so
much better than a donkey cart with a broken wheel and they would never try to fly across the ocean in one.
My conclusion after seeing real people in a real average Jane setting
crash and burn after being dropped in the pilot's seat midair is that the JSF advocates are just plain lying
because the JSF is really a step backwards for people used to using
technology several centuries behind what it should be.

To make this short and simple, virtually NOTHING worked properly in the JSF.
Telling the JSF to turn left and swatting it with your hand did nothing, it would not listen.
Stuffing oats and barley into the fuel tank did not refuel it. In fact, the jet technician said I caused 100s of 1000s of $$$ worth of damage!
I tried to nail a proper shoe onto the jet turbine, but the jet-grade aluminum just gouged.
I applied salve to where we attached the harness, but the weird metallic lesions would not heal.
We then took the JSF to a vetrinarian, but he said he did not treat JSFs.
I was unable to tie the reins up to the hitching post.
And it goes on and on for pages,but the bottom line is that the JSF lasted about 3 days in my house before I ditched it and went back to
my donkey cart with a broken wheel.

Conclusion is that the JSF is a birds nest of confusion. The JSF seems
like it might be good until you actually try and fly it and then it
shows it's ugliness, slowness and instability.

Why on earth ANYONE would use the JSF for personal transportation is beyond me.

Re:I don't get it

[ZephyrXero]

"It is not about Linux vs Microsoft, it is about closed source vs open source. If you do not know what this difference means, you should not be allowed to vote, let alone operate a computer on the internet unsupervised."

Very well put... I've only been using Linux for a year now and constantly find reasons for frustration, but I keep trying and learning how to use it. Why? Simple...it's open, it's free (as in freedom). I can jump in Windows and do just about anything, much more easily...but I'd rather not. It's a matter of standing up for something instead of taking it in the ass as the current generation seems to love. You may not see any immediate problem, but lets see what happens when the US gov't passes another shifty bill that makes one of your everday tasks illegal all of the sudden? With MS's ties to the government, they can have spyware built in to the system and report everything you do back to them. You're probably thinking...I don't do anything wrong, I've got nothing to hide, but I'm sure the Germans felt the same way prior to certain political groups taking over. Go look up how many of today's prominent leaders have a family history of involvement with that same group.

When the US finally becomes a military state, or worse in the next coming decades. You'll know why I like knowing what kind of code I'm running. Open source software is one of the few tools we will have against the coming fascist regimes and singular world government.

*Note to Mods: If you disagree with my viewpoint or opinions, feel free to reply and discuss...but don't mod me down just for having unpopular ideas.

Re:I don't get it

[Anonymous Coward]

There's the point, the extra hassle. Why do the third degree to find the right 'flavor' when I can install XP and be done with it?

Re:I don't get it

[Anonymous Coward]

After reading your post I have to conclude that you are am inept smacktard. Please do the rest of the world a favor and stay away from computer technology as you ability to grasp even the simplest concepts of their use completely eludes you.

Not a troll ? Yes it is !

[alexhs]

Parent post is not a troll.

I was wondering. But I'm now convinced it is actually a troll (and won't therefore answer him) : how would an AC have written so much in about two minutes ?

Either he had access to the news before, which implies a suscriber account, then posting as AC, or he just copy-pasted a pre-written text. In both cases, I can't see how it couldn't be a troll.

Re:Not a troll ? Yes it is !

[IceAgeComing]

Do a search in Google Groups using the first line of the troll as text. You'll see that this is a simple copy/paste. In other words, a troll.

Re:Not a troll ? Yes it is !

[alexhs]

Thanks, I did a Google search but in "google web".
I didn't know that groups contents didn't appear in web searches.
So I used logic instead ;-)

Oh the internet

[A beautiful mind]

"Where men are men, women are women, and young 14y old girls are FBI agents"

...or something like that.

Re:Oh the internet

[Chosen Reject]

I think it goes, "Where men are men and the women are too."

Re:Oh the internet

['nother poster]

From long before the internet... Wyoming, where men are men, women are scarce, and the sheep are nervous.

Re:Oh the internet

[Dirtside]

The original quote is:

"IRC: Where men are men, women are men, and little girls are FBI agents."

Re:I don't get it

[fshalor]

80-90% of compu ter users may have IE installed, but 80-90% of all my websites traffic is mozilla based.

call it the benefits of being at a major institution.

Now what?

[Anonymous Coward]

I already knew that Microsoft has been up to no good to keep from losing their marketshare to Linux, above and beyond paying off our corrupt politicians and funding bogus "Windows is better" studies.

The question is, what to do about it?

windows users don't have bugs, viruses, spywares:)

[free2]

The parents forget there is an even larger number of people who are fed up by viruses, spyware and other windows problems (yes windows has some shortcomings, did you know ?).

What about the terrorist money?

[exp(pi*sqrt(163))]

Microsoft is funded by terrorists who use their software to plot devilish crimes. (Windows 2K in fact.)

Re:What about the terrorist money?

[Punboy]

Coulda sworn you said "Terrorist monkey" :-p

Must be a Troll but I'll bite

[bogie]

Even though the above post is a completely madeup TROLL, it still illustrates a good point. Without proper preperation you WILL fail if you attempt to migrate to linux or any other OS.

Its obvious this person didn't do research into which hardware was supported. And thus they had a horrible experience. Getting hardward supported on linux that doesn't work 100% out of the box is a total F*cking PITA. That's why you make sure you stuff is supported before you even reach for the install CD.

As far as mp3's skipping something was really wrong there. I haven't heard widespread reports of that happening since the 90's.

And also I will say that if you wanted compatibilty why didn't you use Firefox or Opera?

You know, I've seen enough reports of the problems people have over the years with linux that I don't even suggest linux as a desktop anymore. I do respond to help help people but I don't ever tell people to switch from Windows. Its not worth my breath and not worth it unless you want to actually get elbow deep in computer technology and your OS. Most people don't want to learn anything more than "push this button to turn on your PC and push the big blue E to access the Internet".

But again I must say that this person set themselves up to fail. Who the hell switches SEVEN machines to linux in one shot and expects everthing to work perfectly? Have much linux admin experience? No? Then why did you do that? You should have done 1 PC at a time over a long period to make sure everyone was used to it and you could iron out things like printers not working.

You know what? I changed my mind. The above post is a total Troll. I'm just waiting for someone to point out that this is an old copy and paste from 3 years ago.

Re:I don't get it

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember when everyone bitched day in and day out about how unstable windows was? Not so much anymore.

Which planet are you from? Ok, I guess you don't work in tech support, but I see more Microsoft Windows machines bite the dust each day than I've had hot dinners. OS X and Linux users cost the department far less in tech support issues (a factor of 17-1, in fact).

We're not just talking about the instability due to the inherant security flaws that allow all sorts of spyware, viruses, trojans and such like. We're talking about things like plugging and unplugging USB devices that cause blue-screens of death. Printer drivers taking out the whole OS. Constant slowdowns despite monthly "defrags". The list goes on.

Windows has a long way to go to catch up with standard Linux distributions as far as stability, performance, scaleability, UI and feature set goes, and unfortunately whilst they are still playing "catch-up" they are also dragging further and further behind.

Re:I don't get it

[m50d]

I had the opposite experience when switching to Linux, I really did. My (nvidia riva TNT2) video card gets a slightly higher resolution than in windows (1200x960 rather than 1152x864). I had to download drivers for it, but I have to do that in windows anyway, other than that just X -configure. Sound card (onboard via 82c686b) worked out of the box rather than having to use a borky manufacturer's installer that failed 4 times out of 5 and required 2 reboots between each attempt. Printer (epson stylus C20UX) worked fine (I just ran the kde add printer wizard). Modem (connexant one of some sort) worked although lost its call waiting functionality. I've since upgraded to ADSL using a router, the network card I use worked fine with again no driver download in linux, wheras to use it in windows I would have had to use another pc to download the driver (as it was I just used linux to download the windows driver installer). Linux is far more stable than the windows I switched from (crashes are a quarterly rather than weekly ocurrence). So, as far as I'm concerned, why on earth ANYONE would use windows for a home system is a mystery.

Re:MOD PARENT UP. Not a troll.

[Anonymous Coward]

hold that thought...

someone will be along to 'meta-moderate' your kneecaps in a minute or two...

No but you can make a law.

[Adolph_Hitler]

The Goldman's law, the official revision of Godwins law. The first poster who cites Godwins law actually secretly supports Hitler.

Re:No but you can make a law.

[argoff]

Gold is not necessary. I have no interest in gold. We'll build a solid state, without an ounce of gold behind it. Anyone who sells above the set prices, let him be marched off to a concentration. That's the bastion of money."

Adolf Hitler

Re:No but you can make a law.

[basilpronoun]

> ... ounce of gold ...
They use the metric system in Germany. I expect a more literal translation would read 28.3 grams of gold.
Or maybe gold-royale. :-)

So what you're saying is...

[RiotNrrd]

...buy MSFT? I mean, if they're THAT powerful then NOTHING can stop them, right?

Re:MOD PARENT UP. Not a troll.

[ZephyrXero]

I would agree the original post is not a troll. Not very well informed, certainly not insightful...but not a troll. They have all the right to report what their experience is, but I would be equally annoyed if they were modded positively. As they stated, Linux isn't as easy as Windows...especially if don't even give it a week. It's taken me more than a year to finally get used to the differences between Linux and my Windows upbringing.

FUNNEE

[Sir_Eptishous]

if i had the points youd get 'em

Re:FUNNEE

[halber_mensch]

apparently someone else out there didn't find me very humorous, giving me -1 redundant moderation.

Re:MOD PARENT UP. Not a troll.

[Anonymous Coward]

Parent post is not a troll. First reply is a troll. I am Linux only household and it all works for me (mostly). Does that make trolls out of people who tried Linux and couldn't make it work? Oh right- Slashdot, where the inmates run the asulym and wanna-be do-nothings are the loudest critics. Do the loudest geeks and nerds all have the mentality of 4th graders? Oopps...asking for some rational thought. Mod me an unfunny troll.

Personal Exp switching fam from win 2 lin

[Vodak]

Used Ubuntu Linux to switch my sister's notebook PC to Linux and it worked like a charm.

But why does she use Linux? Simple newbie like reason. It comes with more preinstanned simple little games then Windows. In XP she had the abilty to play, mine sweeper, pineball, and solitare...

Now she and my mother are constantly playing gnome same game, any of the multiple flavors of tetris, and majong. (oh god if I could spell)

Re:Personal Exp switching fam from win 2 lin

[Glooty-Us-Maximus]

What notebook did she have, what were it's hardware stats, and did everything work? I installed Mandrake 10 (then upgraded to 10.1 and 10.2) on my Acer Travelmate 290E and the lack of suspend (software suspend scripts are buggy), working wireless drivers (my broadcom BCM4306 doesn't have any drivers out and ndiswrapper wasn't working with the Windows ones), and simple power management kept me frustrated. I'm now thinking of running Windows XP with Linux in a VM.

Re:Personal Exp switching fam from win 2 lin

[DShard]

An IBM T42 works out of the gate and has since the first release. wireless, check. Video card, check. Sound, check. IM, check. music, check.

Linux desktop may still have some way to go, but the ground it has covered in the last three years is astounding. I can remember jiggering redhat 9 in major ways to get it working on a Dell gx260. That wasn't something my mother could have done. Heck, getting X to work in slackware around 95 almost killed me. Now I don't think there is any geek cred left in getting linux running on most hardware.

Re:Personal Exp switching fam from win 2 lin

[jamstar7]

Getting Xwindows working on Redhat 3.0.3 was a major chore. Getting an ALS120 sound card working right was even tougher before ALSA. And I still had problems with getting ALSA to work right, but they were all configuration errors on my part.

Fedora Core 4 loves my old IBM T22 just fine, and even likes my homebrew workstation & Epia 10000 set top box. The ViaChrome drivers fired right up!!

Next step is to get my girlfriend penguinised...

Re:I don't get it

[conrausch]

There goes some of Bill's money...

Re:windows users don't have bugs, viruses, spyware

[ZephyrXero]

Agreed....the insecurity of Windows alone brings it back down to equal with any UI or setup frustrations you would find with Linux. It's the fact that Linux is open source that really pushes it over the top.

Preston Gates Scandal Info ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Information on Preston Gates scancal

Re:I don't get it

[bonniot]

I think you have valid concerns, but you are also mixing up severals meanings of "Linux is better, you should try it".

First, it is (more or less) generally admitted that Linux is technically better than Windows. For parts, this is something you can experience as a "general public" user: less system crashes, no need to reboot all the time, ... But it's also many things you might not experience yourself, like ease of administration, in particular with a large number of machines, ...

Now, the problems you mention rather fall into the daily use pattern and hardware support. That it did not work as easily as you expected is a valid reproach. I can assure you there are many people out there working on improving this, and if you have been following Linux you know it has already come a long way. I also think there is a way to make everything work, but yes, it might take some effort, that should be improved. But if you are honest, you should recognize that part of the reason for this is that the companies you bought hardware and services from "do not support Linux". Why? Because the market is too small? Because they have eclusivity deals with Microsoft? In any case, that looks a lot like a vicious circle.

Which brings to the third aspect. If Linux is "better", it is also from a freedom/philosophical point of view. It gives you choice. It allows you to avoid being locked in a single system (windows) , which is very valuable if you understand the risks of such a situation. This is what makes it worthwile to support Linux.

Does it mean you should use Linux? It really depends on your situation, and for you it looks like you might indeed want a bit more for a more user-friendly version/distribution (assuming you did try a reasonable distribution). Or get help from somebody to get those things working. In any case, just don't dismiss the "philosophical" aspect of "better".

This is an experiment

[Anonymous Coward]

Clears his throat (ahem)

then says "design it, build it, then deliver it, the rest is bullshit except if it is a valid argument in terms of economic resource management planet-wide in terms of human behaviour", hits refresh and waits for the flames.

Peter

Follow Gates' OTHER money.

[sakusha]

Watch closely where Gates is putting his money. He is slowly and quietly liquidating his MSFT stock holdings and putting the money into Big Pharmaceutical stocks. Gates is one of the biggest Big Pharma stockholders in the world. And gee, what a surprise, his "charities" (and I use that term loosely) are solely dedicated to getting the 3rd World hooked on Big Pharma products.
It appears the only monopoly more profitable than Microsoft is Pharmaceuticals.

Re:Follow Gates' OTHER money.

[Anonymous Coward]

Either give us some links proving your assertions or loosen your tinfoil hat just a little...

While I wouldn't put something like that past Mr. Bill, I also don't believe everything I read on slashdot without at least some evidence.

Re:Follow Gates' OTHER money.

[sakusha]

If you want evidence, you could merely Google on a string like "Bill Gates Pharmaceutical Stocks." You could easily find a story from the Wall Street Journal that describes Gates' investments in Merck, Pfizer, Johnson & Johnson, etc.
There was a really good article on Siliconvalley.com that described the full extent of Gates' pharma holdings, but alas it has gone behind their new paid archives.

Re:Follow Gates' OTHER money.

[borroff]

This is just a couple of minutes digging, but NPR ran a small blurb in January pointing out the Gates Foundation's work with GAVI, the Global Alliance for Vaccines and Immunization. GAVI is undeniably a force for good in the world, but in a critique published by Save the Children, UK, it was pointed out that "three of the current board members were engaged in the production or development of vaccines being promoted by GAVI", and that they should try to do more to avoid the appearance of conflict of interest.

Granted, when you want vaccines, you go to drug companies, but this is fuel for conspiracy theorists. After all, who says you can't do good and make money at the same time.

Re:Follow Gates' OTHER money.

[sakusha]

OK, when did Bill Gates ever do good and make money at the same time?

Re:Follow Gates' OTHER money.

[ad0gg]

By hooked, you mean getting drugs that save the lives of their citizens? I guess maybe 3rd world countries shouldn't rely on drugs and rely on prayer instead.

What are you going to say next, that bill gates is trying to get the 3rd world countries hooked on food while funneling money into agricultural market?

Re:Follow Gates' OTHER money.

[Jherek Carnelian]

By hooked, you mean getting drugs that save the lives of their citizens? I guess maybe 3rd world countries shouldn't rely on drugs and rely on prayer instead.

By hooked, he means hooked on foreign produced drugs. All of the money that Gates gives for drugs (drug money?) is spent on purchasing foreign produced drugs, often at 100x the price of identical locally produced drugs.

So instead of using his money as a negotiating club to bring Big Pharma's pricing into line with local market conditions, he's just propping up the drug companies and helping a tiny fraction of the people who could be helped if the same money was spent on cheaper medicine.

Sure you can yada-yada about how drug companies deserve to get whatever they can for their hard-earned patented medicine. But that argument falls apart in the face of two facts: 1) Marketing makes up the bulk of costs associated with most patented drugs and 2) Without Bill's money the local governments would be using the locally-produced drugs anyway, these countries are just "freebies" to the drug co's and not part of their normal business plan otherwise - they know that you can't squeeze blood from a stone and they don't care, plenty of blood in the 1st world.

Re:Follow Gates' OTHER money.

[jc42]

OK, when did Bill Gates ever do good and make money at the same time?

Hey, there's gotta be a few cases. Nobody, not even billg, is perfect.

Granted, I don't know of any cases, but I expect that his PR people could pull out a few.

Microsoft on BugTraq ID: 7386

[Anonymous Coward]

*SNIP* "IV. Impact Local unprivileged users may gain access to confidential information that is stored on affected systems. This may allow access to unrelated services such as web accounts, or further compromise of the affected system's host network. V. Workarounds None known. Mission-critical systems should be protected from logins by untrusted users, according to industry-standard best practices. VI. Vendor Response The Microsoft Security Response Center was notified by e-mail when this issue was originally discovered more than two years ago. MSRC was contacted again with updated information on the specific details of the flaw, in an attempt to assist a lab reproduction and a possible fix. MSRC chose to handle the incident as a "non-security issue", and directed the Windows product team to issue a Service Pack fix. Citing the supposed difficulty of producing the behavior documented in this advisory, MSRC concluded that a security update to address the issue was not "justified". Further, it was indicated to me that the MSRC would "not be driving" the release timeline for any fix. "

Re:windows users don't have bugs, viruses, spyware

[Anonymous Coward]

I didn't have the problems you speak of ... I never had any problem with Windows. It was stupid of me to try Linux. I thought it would be the same thing as going from Internet Explorer to Mozilla Firefox, a revelation. It wasn't, it was a pain in the arse. I don't know what Linuxites keep bragging about, they always say "no spyware, no viruses" but if you have a firewall that argument is irrelevant.

Re:I don't get it

[Fiver-]

The GP is a Usenet post from 2003.

Burn.

Re:I don't get it

[Aeiri]

To make this short and simple, virtually NOTHING worked properly under Linux.

Maybe 4 years ago... MAYBE...

Video cards could not get maximum resolution.
Capture programs, for my ATI All In WOnder and Video camera did not work. In fact my ATI cards advanced features (remote control amongst other things) didn't work at all.

That's ATI's fault for hating Linux, not the Linux community. We can't exactly create great drivers when the company doesn't release its specifications on the cards. NVIDIA doesn't either, as far as I'm aware, but that doesn't matter because they have great Linux drivers.

As for remote controls and capture program, LIRC does most remote control functions perfectly, and a lot of distros have it already installed (I believe), and unless I'm mistaking the definition you are referring to for "capture program", GIMP does fine.

My printer (Brother all in one fax/copier/printer) did not work.

Most modern distros come preconfigured with CUPS, ready to print right out of the box.

My DSL connection did not work and when I called support they said that Linux was not supported.

So does mine, and I'm posting this message, aren't I? "Not supported" means "we aren't going to help you with any problems you have". The DHCP and PPP protocols are straightforward, so it is obviously a problem with your network card. Unless you are using the same card in all computers, at least ONE, more likely all but that one you tried, of the computers should have had internet access right out of the box.

My mp3 and mpeg video and music files played but they skipped horribly.

What distro did you try? I've NEVER had that problem, EVER (and I have 2 ATI cards!).

I couldn't log into my router via konqueror to change/view settings

I haven't configured my router through Windows period, only Linux. If your network card wasn't working like you said earlier, then that's a redundant problem. Unplug your ethernet cable from your computer and try configuring your router through Windows, it's the same thing.

MANY, MANY, MANY web pages did not display correctly.

What were you using Mozilla during the browser wars?

I was keen to learn but the RPM hunt and the randomness of program functioning

If you are using any RPM based distro, that's your own fault. RPM "hunting" and RPM "hell" (much like DLL "hell") make every RPM based distro crap the minute they base their system off of it (of course, that is only my opinion). Trying one distro and saying "MY GOD LINUX SUCKS!" is like trying Windows Server 2003 for your desktop and saying "MY GOD WINDOWS SUCKS!".

All of these "problems" are either minor issues or problems that don't exist today practically at all. While I personally don't like it, Ubuntu automatically detects everything pretty well, and has a decent "hide the background stuff" approach that seems to work somewhat nicely for people new to Linux. Also, if you are wanting a "I want my computer to work right now without touching it" approach, like Windows, I would try Linspire. I've heard their distro is working really nicely for that stuff.

It's official. Goldman's law applies to the above

[elucido]

Goldman's law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a poster supporting Nazi ideology while hiding behind Godwins Law approaches one.

Those who can't compete, lobby

[MECC]

Its obvious MS can't just make better software to compete with OSS, or at least they don't believe they can. So, they lobby to make any serious competition look evil in some way, or make that competition illegal somehow. Either that, or they just fear what they don't understand. Remember, most OSS is produced without traditional management - its a different way of seeing things with respect to making software. That's why OSS often 'just works'.

I installed linux on a laptop, and the ethernet interface 'just worked'along with everything else with no additional intervention. With Win2k and WinXP, I had to hunt down the drivers, although that wasen't very hard. On another PC, reinstalling WinXP and applying SP2 redered the box unbootable from WinXP. It boots knoppix just fine, and I can browse the web, read my company email, including opening MS office attachments.

However, corrupting goverment officials - that's not news, that's shooting fish in a barrel. Not even a good spectator sport.

Re:Those who can't compete, lobby

[soulhuntre]

Its obvious MS can't just make better software to compete with OSS, or at least they don't believe they can. So, they lobby to make any serious competition look evil in some way, or make that competition illegal somehow.

Or to put it another way...

"Its obvious OSS can't just make better software to compete with commercial firms, or at least they don't believe they can. So, they lobby to make any sucessful company look evil in some way, or make that companies practices illegal somehow."

Re:Those who can't compete, lobby

[MECC]

"Its obvious OSS can't just make better software to compete with commercial firms, or at least they don't believe they can. So, they lobby to make any sucessful company look evil in some way, or make that companies practices illegal somehow."

Are there OSS special interest groups lobbying congress? A reference would be interesting.

Re:windows users don't have bugs, viruses, spyware

[ZephyrXero]

Apparently you missed the crux of my argument. The fact that Linux is open source is all the reason you should need to switch. To achieve freedom and security you must give up some convienence. I've been struggling with learning Linux for over a year now, but I'm still not giving up on it.

Re:Huh?

[Filip22012005]

Haha, I didn't really get this comment, but the moderator that came by is certainly funny. Your post was at 0, and still the moderator thought you were overrated!

Breaking News.....

[demachina]

News at 11, a big corporation makes campaign contributions to insure they gain influence in Washington.

Breaking news, a major scandal has been unearthed, a big corpooration pays lobbiests with connections to influence politicians.

Geez, EVERY big company does EXACTLY the same thing, look at all the companies on the list in the article that gave more money than Microsoft did, like AOL Time Warner. The only amazing thing about Microsoft is they didn't do it much until the antitrust suite and Congress became active in drafting legislation that directrly impacts their business.

The only plus I can see in their /. submission is thanks to all the Gates/Linux catch phrases maybe some number of geeks will be enlightened that their supposed representative Democracy was in fact sold to the highest bidder like a century or two ago.

This whole submission is a case of taking a somewhat interesting article on politics and business as usual(a.k.a sleezy) and bending it so its certain to make it to the Slashdot front page using certain to succeed hot button catch phrases.

Its mildly interesting that there may be a link between Microsoft, Preston Gates and Abramoff but I assure you there are a LOT of politicians and firms that are going to have sleeze splattered on them thanks to Abramoff now that he's been publicly tagged as a sleeze and a crook, something most insiders have known for a long time.

Its interesting Melinda Gates is on the board of the Washington post but ALL boards are incestuous dens of influence peddaling between the rich and powerful.

But really, nothing to see here....move along.

Re:Breaking News.....

[zorg77]

There actually are at least some exceptions. IBM is one of them: http://www.ibm.com/ibm/responsibility/company/mana gement/policies/politics.shtml

disclaimer: I work for IBM, but this comment is my own and not that of my employer.

Re:Breaking News.....

[truthsearch]

So, because every company does exactly the same thing it should be ignored? If everyone's doing it there's no reason to investigate and ask questions? Lxer is merely trying to open peoples' eyes to a little of what's going on. But for you ignorance is bliss.

Re:Breaking News.....

[Anonymous Coward]

>News at 11, a big corporation makes campaign contributions to insure they gain influence in Washington.

[snip]

>But really, nothing to see here....move along.

Has everyone jumped on this bandwagon enough yet?

I grow tired of seeing people post "In other news..." and "Nothing to see here..." to indicate that the submitted article is obvious. These posts usually miss the point that the abstracted news (in this case, a corporation making political connections to cover its ass) is not news but the details are.

It makes me puke that these posts are modded "Informative" or "Insightful" when they are usually the opposite. Perhaps I'm missing the point though and these should be modded "Funny" at best.

At any rate... In other news AC complains about Slashdot posting/mdding trends. Nothing to see here... move along. ;-)

Re:Breaking News.....

[gromitcode]

correct IBM goes for the more direct sleezy approach. paying for politian "business" trips and buying them expensive dinners.

Re:Breaking News.....

[demachina]

"But for you ignorance is bliss."

Don't think that describes my attitude. I KNOW quite well that this is standard practice in Washington so I'm not ignorant of the issue.

I just think that this submission and the article it points to is sensationalist attempt to make out like this is some kind of scandal, and like maybe someone should go to jail for a grand conspiracy.

I think all of the "evidence" in the article are public records, lobbying registration and campaign contributions. There isn't anything remotely illegal about anything Microsoft, Mr. and Mrs. Gates did here that I can see. They are playing the government game by the rules our government created for the game. SO WHAT. Maybe Abramoff will go to jail, but only if his powerful friends decide to let him swing. Maybe a few people will get taken down with him. Microsoft and the Gates family wont get a scratch.

I'm all for changing the rules and people seizing control of their government from the corrupt politicians (which is pretty much all of them or at least all the successful ones), big campaign contributors, corporations and lobbiest. Chance of it happening in the U.S. are nearly zero because %99.9 of the American people have no clue, could care less or if they do understand the problem and care aren't gonna rock the bock trying to change it. That leaves 0.1% who understand, care and are willing to do something about it and they will be swatted like a bug or will be locked up in rubber rooms.

Re:Breaking News.....

[demachina]

Don't know about those tactics but doing a Google search on IBM lobbyist yields an abundance of matches including this one:

"And IBM's chief lobbyist threatened many European governments with a termination of investment if they did not support software patents"

Personally I've always been amazed that a company can buy a politicians favor for like $3-50K in campaign contribution and get millions or billions of dollars in return out of it, though it sure seems to work. Maybe IBM thought it was a goofy, sleezy practice too and decided to just go for the jugglar with lobbiests and economic threats. Maybe they wanted to sucker people, including employees, with this noble sounding web page about campaign contributions and forgot to mention they still LOVE lobbyists and threatening governments who dont do what they want.

I'm guessing either the EU didn't give IBM the software patents leading to IBM is canning, was it 13,000 Europeans and quitely hiring what was it 14,000 Indians. Does India have software patents, they must?

No, only privacy and security supports terrorists.

[Adolph_Hitler]

This is why we must give up all our privacy and security to rid the world of terrorism. We need cameras on every street, we need to give more power to the CIA, the FBI, and do our best to combine all the powers in government and put it in control of just one or two men. When one man makes all the decisions, even if the decisions are wrong most of they time, they will be made swiftly.

Funny you should mention that

[argoff]

I found it funny that you mentioned that, because the same force that is going to kill Microsoft (in less than 3 years) is the same one that is also going to cause the dollar to collapse and force the US back onto the gold standard.

That force is the information age. Both monitary policy and Microsoft are about controlling and manipulating information that people are allowed to have or apply.

Monitory policy manipulates information by lying to people about the value of their money, Microsoft controlls information thru copyright and licensing schemes that forbid people from copying office and windows. They call this right controll and manipulate what other people copy a "property right" but it's really about controlling how people use information. The *AA are even worse.

But the problem is, that in the information age, information, by definition can not be controlled. It is sorta like the plantation system that tried to controll the labor force in the industrial revolution. The scheme simply blew up in their face and all hell broke loose.

In sum, people would be very wise to buy every dam bit of gold or silver they can get their hands on. And break their neck doing everything immaginitively possible to bet their future career on Linux and ween themselves of windows.

Re:Funny you should mention that

[Anonymous Coward]

Your ranting about money and gold would have more weight if you learned how to spell 'monetary' and didn't conflate the issue with MS.

Re:Funny you should mention that

[Breakfast Pants]

Linux, gold, blah blah: Cryptonomicon isn't a bible.

Re:Funny you should mention that

[truthsearch]

Both monitary policy and Microsoft are about controlling and manipulating information that people are allowed to have or apply.

The value of anything is merely what others are willing to give you for it. Money can be backed by gold because gold has a value to others. Money can be backed by the US government because the country has an intrinsic value to others.

Monetary policy has nothing to do with controlling information, only perception. Therefore the only correlation to Microsoft is that it's perception dictates its value (i.e. stock price).

Re:Funny you should mention that

[nickco3]

In sum, people would be very wise to buy every dam bit of gold or silver they can get their hands on

Moderation Guidance: -1 Worst Financial Advice Ever Seen on Slashdot

I've got bad news for you: the price of gold is in long term decline, and will stay there. Mining is becoming more efficient, it's getting cheaper and cheaper to get it out of the ground and get it to market. When it get's to market, the biggest purchasers used to be central banks, but they aren't buying any more. On top of that, it doesn't get used up, it doesn't get consumed, or even corrode away.

So we have a commodity metal, where the demand has vanished, the global supply is constantly expanding with ever cheaper installments. Which direction is the price going? Only down.

Stay away from gold. Don't touch it.

Re:Funny you should mention that

[justforaday]

Cryptonomicon isn't a bible.

You're right. It's bigger than the Bible!

Re:Funny you should mention that

[LaCosaNostradamus]

Funny that you would so nonchalantly mention mining efficiency, while also failing to mention that modern mining methods have shifted into micro-processing modes (or whatever they call it).

When you sift tons of ore to recover mere grams of gold, you had BETTER BE efficient. But that just tells us something about gold's real availability. The lodes and veins are going, hence we have moved on to less efficient ores.

THAT'S a trend that you failed to mention. And it DOES suggest that it's going to be harder to win gold from the ground. Micro-processing is energy-intensive, and as you may have heard, energy prices are going UP.

Re:I don't get it

[dtfinch]

The problems you describe have nothing to do with the quality of Linux. Manufacturers, not Microsoft, write the drivers for all that hardware. Many of them don't write Linux drivers, and even refuse to provide the specs necessary to write Linux drivers. BTW: All my hardware works perfectly in Linux, as do my favorite Windows games.

Re:I don't get it

[Iriel]

Then again, browser traffic depends greatly on your target audience. I'll bet that /. gets more than it's fair share of mozilla/gecko/KHTML based browsers along with ThinkGeek, sourceforge and freshmeat to name a few. Something a little more (don't flame me for this please) mainstream may have to reconsider their users tech knowledge/usage though.

Re:Looks MS part of cancer of corruption in Congre

[Anonymous Coward]

But you know, MS was apolitical until they were blind sided by the Antitrust suit, mainly be the Democrat Party, in power at that time. Now they are all over politics.

Make mine +6 Insightful

[IceAgeComing]

"Better yet, you idealists should all just die now. The world has no room for people who strive to make it a better place."

No thanks. At the end of my life, I'd like to not be remembered as a back-stabbing cheat, but as someone who strove to make the world better. And today you're in luck: I can take your ridicule. My heart is full of love.

Re:Make mine +6 Insightful

[October_30th]

not be remembered as a back-stabbing cheat, but as someone who strove to make the world better

I'm not saying that I agree with the original poster, but why do you think "backstabbing cheat" and "someone who strives to make the world better" are mutually exclusive?

I'd say that to effect any significant change you've got to be ruthless about it.

Re:Make mine +6 Insightful

[Pentavirate]

Who said to participate in the free market you have to be a back-stabbing cheat? And who said that in order to make the world a better place you have to give it all away for free?

The basic premise that economics is based on is that we all act self-interested and by doing so we are ALL better off and the world becomes a better place.

Something else I've wondered..... If everyone dropped proprietary software and went to Open Source, what would all these developers do to pay the bills and put food on the table? If it weren't for commercial companies willing to pay developers a salary so they can pay their bills, they wouldn't be able to develop other stuff for free. Or will everyone live off of Open Source bounties and "Donate" buttons?

Re:Make mine +6 Insightful

[zeitgeist_chaser]

And, in the end, when the bad guys stand triumphant, will you be satisfied when you look in the mirror and say to yourself, "Well, at least I went about it 'the right way'"? Some of us would rather stab the bad guys in the back and win in our quest to make the world a better place. Striving to make the world better and losing doesn't actually make the world better.

Re:Make mine +6 Insightful

[Anonymous Coward]

Because people still pay to have new software developed, dolt. The abolition of copyright and patent will simply be a market correction back to a free market. Sure, 10000 VB weenies might have to go back to shovelling fries, but that's not my problem.

Re:Make mine +6 Insightful

[IceAgeComing]

why do you think "backstabbing cheat" and "someone who strives to make the world better" are mutually exclusive?

Interesting question. I chose the words hastily, and I actually believe that people's motivations are a complex blend of selfish and selfless. I also believe that environmental factors can influence whether a person is one or the other; essentially any one of us may have tortured prisoners at Abu Ghraib because of the environment in which both prisoner and captor were contained (search for the "Stanford Prison Experiment" for some interesting experimental evidence of this).

When it comes right down to it (and I'm interested in what you think about this), I believe that the more transparent people's intentions are, the less likely evil can thrive in the world. The reason cheats exist is because people don't realize they're cheats until it's too late.

Re:Make mine +6 Insightful

[Anonymous Coward]

If we stabbed the bad guys in the back, wouldn't we just be the more ruthless, even badder, guy?

Re:Make mine +6 Insightful

[subtropolis]

I'd say that to effect any significant change you've got to be ruthless about it.

Like Mussolini? Hitler? Or Pol Pot, maybe? Junior Bush & Co...

Re:Make mine +6 Insightful

[SoccerManUNLV]

get a haircut you tree huggin hippie. sorry, the only thing that came to mind after reading your post.

Re:Make mine +6 Insightful

[mOdQuArK!]

If everyone dropped proprietary software and went to Open Source, what would all these developers do to pay the bills and put food on the table?

They could behave like every other craftsperson on the planet & work for a living, as in: providing services for getting paid. If you want to keep getting paid, you keep working. It's not that complicated a concept.

Re:Make mine +6 Insightful

[Anonymous Coward]

After that post, you expect us to believe you have a mind? HA!

Re:Make mine +6 Insightful

[killjoe]

The vast majority of the programmers in this world write software for internal use by corporations or customize apps like SAP and seibel.

Re:Make mine +6 Insightful

[Pentavirate]

I guess I've mostly worked for companies that sell a software product so I didn't realize that the majority code for internal companies. Good to know.

Predictable

[tsotha]

Well, this is another case of the law of unintended consequences, isn't it? For many years Microsoft was perfectly happy to do its own thing and leave Washinton alone. Then we had a couple of politicians (at the behest of Novel and Oracle) trying to make hay out of "getting" them. Having been forced into the political arena, how could they have been expected to respond?

They bought up a bunch of politicians. It was a matter of survival. But now they have all this political clout they can apply in other ways. I don't see any benefit to all that lawyering worth remaking Microsoft into a political force.

I'm not saying they never did anything illegal. The problem is the government was trying to put them out of business. DOJ should have slapped them with a large fine for exclusionary business deals and called it a day. Microsoft simply couldn't tolerate a situation where a judge has to sign off on every new feature they want to add to Windows.

Fix

[Anonymous Coward]

*SNIP*

"IV. Impact

Local unprivileged users may gain access to confidential information
that is stored on affected systems. This may allow access to unrelated
services such as web accounts, or further compromise of the affected
system's host network.

V. Workarounds

None known. Mission-critical systems should be protected from logins by
untrusted users, according to industry-standard best practices.

VI. Vendor Response

The Microsoft Security Response Center was notified by e-mail when this
issue was originally discovered more than two years ago. MSRC was
contacted again with updated information on the specific details of the
flaw, in an attempt to assist a lab reproduction and a possible fix.
MSRC chose to handle the incident as a "non-security issue", and
directed the Windows product team to issue a Service Pack fix.

Citing the supposed difficulty of producing the behavior documented in
this advisory, MSRC concluded that a security update to address the
issue was not "justified". Further, it was indicated to me that the
MSRC would "not be driving" the release timeline for any fix. "

Re:I don't get it

[lewdot]

And not putting a price on your time, how much did it cost you to try out all that linux software?

I know it's not for everyone yet, but out of curiousity, do have a license for all 7 copies of Windows? I assume you're using MS Office on there, you pay for as many licenses as you have copies installed? How about any additional non-MS software? Assuming you've payed for everything your using, how much did all that set you back?

Now, if you'd rather pay the difference between the two, than look for a little assistance online, or try a different distro (my personal advice, is to try the live CD version of it first, if one exists, to see what works), then yes, Windows is still the OS for you (although if price is not an issue, perhaps a Mac would be better for you). On the other hand, if your shocked at the price difference, and are a little willing to learn, then you'd be what I'd consider the ideal candidate for the next stage of Linux adopters: average computer users either willing to learn and/or fed up with malware.

(I do realize that currently most people fall into a different category: borrow the software they need and install it, rather then paying for it all. I'd imagine that this will get more and more difficult to do over time.)

No way!

[ZosX]

A CONVICTED monopolist would never use his money to lobby his government to restrict or deny markets to his only real competition. NEVER!

Re:I don't get it

[Anonymous Coward]

mp3's skipping sounds like a sound driver problem, try using alsa or some other mixer

Re:I don't get it

[mrjimorg]

This type of comment adds absolutely nothing to the conversation. I know what the original poster is going through because I've had VERY similar experiences myself. The jist of it is that she didn't have the right drivers that she needed. She couldn't get the right resolutions because she was using the default VGA drivers, and the capture-card thing was very similar. As for the sound, I installed Linux on a cheapy-box that I intended to turn into a set-top-box and the sound was horribly choppy and .... well... crappy. I did a lot of searching and configuring and I was never able to fix that. Truth is that the manufacturer probably didn't give a damn about Linux and so I suffered for that. But, what I really hope the Linux community comes away with from this persons testimony is that when you install Linux nowadays, you've really just began - even with Lindows or other 'simple' Linux varieties - your next step is to download and install the latest video card drivers, and this is not very easy. One little mistake like forgetting that your mouse is a ps2 and the mouse on your OTHER system is USB will result in NO VIDEO- just prompts. Then, add to that the fact that everyone who makes Linux software seems to want to distribute the source code for the latest beta version, which doesn't always build - just give us the freaking binaries! Which reminds me of another bad thing about Linux- its not an OS, its a religion. I just want a working system - Linux people boycott companies that try to sell software or even those companies that want to sell hardware and dont want to give away all their proprietary secrets to their competators via source-code drivers. To be honest, BeOS seemed to have it right (amazingly easy to use, still Unixy, supports X). OSX seems to have it right (built on open source kernel, fancy easy to use UI and configuration, supports X). But Linux has it horribly wrong, and a lot of the stuff that needs to be done is boring, tedious, requires testing across a ton of systems, and therefore wont likely be done by anyone except a commercial venture. I just hope one or two show up and save Linux. Sorry for the rant - I didn't intend it to get that way, but I'm frustrated because I want Linux to become better than it is. Of course, most Linux people will dismiss me, insult me, threaten me, or act in some other intolerant way.

Re:I don't get it

[SatanicPuppy]

RPM based distros aren't that bad for non-pro users.

There are so many tools out there to help you manage repositories...Fedora's up2date, which has a nice GUI and a simple command line, YUM, Synaptic the apt-get frontend.

I just installed Stentz (Fedora Core 4) on a brand new high end box, and it looks beautiful, runs fast, everything autoconfigured fine. I had to do some work on it, because I need a non-standard apache compile and some other junk like that, but for your average user its fine. Comes with Firefox preinstalled.

If Linspire runs better than that, then I don't see how anyone could complain about anything except the usual whiny "Waaa it doesn't look quite the same" crap.

So where does that money come from?

[SuperKendall]

Don't tell me you actually believed that the "GNU/Linux revolution" would somehow change the rules of the game and that future business would be conducted on the basis of competence/performance alone instead of politics and money?

Of course not.

But where do you think all that money Microsoft has comes from? It comes from companies, from consumers.

And when companies wake up and realize they can take they money they have been giving Microsoft, and keep more of it themselves... that is the revolution, based entirey on the same rules of politics and money.

The rules that say if you keep stealing long enough from someone someday they will notice.

The rules that say if your competition has a lower operating cost they are probably going to eat you up. So it only takes a few companies going with open source solutions along with significant savings and therefore reduced pricing to tilt the whole industry that way.

In the end even a very rich company like Microsoft cannot propel itself on money alone as they simply have to take more in then they spend out.

Re:So where does that money come from?

[ThisIsFred]

But where do you think all that money Microsoft has comes from? It comes from companies, from consumers.

Well, those companies aren't getting payments from the IRS, and they aren't picking it from a money tree, so that leaves the consumers as the source of it. But yeah, Microsoft is like a barnacles on the side of the USS OEM, so the consumer isn't actually making a choice. Microsoft's tactics ensures that the consumer's choice costs him money (try getting an OS-free PC from a major OEM and also get a refund for the full OEM license). That's the problem.

It's going to take more than a few OSS solutions to make it go away, because no consumer in his right mind is going to make the choice that costs him more money unless 1) he's got something significantly better, 2) he's really, really ticked off at Microsoft. With either of those choices, the end user actually has to realize what he's getting. Unfortunately, most don't. As long as Microsoft can continue to force OEMs to pay up front, as long as they can dictate the terms of sale of their software after it's been sold, and as long as they can punish wayward OEMs with non-preferential pricing, nothing's going to change.

Re:So where does that money come from?

[EdHockery]

As it was said by O'Brien to Winston Smith: "the proles will never revolt".

Re:So where does that money come from?

[TheLearnerX]

This whole thing reminds me of High School a few years ago, seeing all of these teachers with Dell computers with MS software, refusing to use them because they're either afraid of them or don't know how. Government paid for, not used even by the people they were intended for. Great system.

C'MON MODS, PARENT UP

[Arren]

Superb explanation.

who's afraid of the....

[zappepcs]

Big Bad Software Corp?

I really don't believe that it would take that much incentive, perhaps a few $100,000 in a swiss bank waiting for someone to topple Longhorn and install corporate spyware inside Microsoft to publish their details to the world... Not that I have the bankroll for it, but there are a LOT of people in the world that have lots of free time and nothing particularly demanding to do with their skills....

I think it would be nice to see Longhorn just fail miserably. It would remove any grasp that the Redmond company could hope to keep hold of in the software market... If it takes 5 more years for the release of all the wonderful things promised, Linux and F/OSS will have already done it, done it better, and done it for very little money... why would anyone keep waiting for Longhorn?

Is anyone working on the Windows to Linux migration strategy? IBM? anyone?

I guess what I'm saying is that the /. community and those working on F/OSS software have a chance to absolutely topple Long(wait)horn and should be doing it... ?

Re:who's afraid of the....

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude? What's your damange? I really think there should be an age restriction to reg for /.

I guess you don't drink Coke, eat at McDonald's, enjoy Starbuck's coffee, search using Google, etc, etc. Because they are just as Capitalistic as MS.

This article should either be modded up for being so funny or the poster should be tested - he may very well be a retard.

Re:I don't get it

[Anonymous Coward]

I tried two distributions (Mandrake and SUSE) and both were worse to use than Windows. Bottom line: if Windows works for you, don't try Linux. It isn't like Internet Explorer to Mozilla Firefox.

Negative

[Anonymous Coward]

Stop using Red Hat 6 and go to a more modern distribution, because Linux at the SAME level of difficulty as installing Microsoft Windows XP Pro.

Otherwise, you're just a troll trying to revive a long dead argument that died more than 2 years ago.

Already done.

[Anonymous Coward]

A few times in fact. And each and every accuser has had one thing in common: some connection to Microsoft. First it was by noted Microsoft evangelist Rob Erndale that Linux users were potential terrorists. Another one is the Micorosft sponsored group ADTI who have been publishing articles detailing how terrorists could use Linux to attack the USA and so it should be outlawed.

Re:Already done.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, ban Linux in the US to prevent terrorists who are outside the US from using it to attack the US. We all know this will work, because countries like Yemen, Pakistan, Syria, Iran, North Korea and others automatically rush to implement any US laws banning stuff, just like not being allowed to have your own stockpile of nukes in the US totally prevented India and Pakistan from getting them, and is acting as an absolute deterrent to North Korea and Iran.

Maybe you could have a "War On Linux" to totally eliminate it, just like Nixon's "War On Cancer" made cancer in US disappear, and the wildly successful "War On Drugs" transformed the US from being the single largest consumer of drugs in the world to only being the single largest consumer of drugs in the world.

So by all means eliminate Linux in the US, in the sure knowledge that it will prevent terrorist groups all over the world from being able to use computers for any purpose whatsoever. This will completely end all world terrorism, because they won't be able to use CAD software to design their bombs, print gun instruction manuals in non-American languages, or destroy the US economy by letting people download copyrighted music and movies without paying for them.

Re:I don't get it

[ywl]

Unless you are intentionally trolling...

I don't think you have much experience with Linux and then suddenly decided to switch over *7* machines to Linux? If that's the case, you'll of course have more trouble you ask for... Try to imagine installing Windows from scratch on 7 machines and teach people how to use them in 3 days.

Most things work well enough in Linux, I think you just don't know how or you have chosen a difficult distribution.

And your issues:
Video card could not get maximum resolution. Which one? I can't imagine this can happen. Do you know how to change the resolution in X?

Capture program. I'm confused. You expect some programs written for Windows to work in Linux?

Printer. Those all-in-one printers are never well supported in Linux. Brother, in my impression, have the worst supported printers. Most vender's programs are written for Windows. Stick with Windows if these printers important to you. Otherwise, get a real, simple printer.

DSL support not available. It takes you that long to figure that out? But in many cases, the DSL modem serves as a router and a DSL modem. What you probably need to do is just to set your machines to get IP by DHCP. The others would be sorted out between your machines and the router. I'm using DSL and Linux can connect without issue.

Mpeg video skipping. ATI cards have their own drivers that you have to download. Only some distributions come with them. Not sure about why music should be skipping, sound card support is fine in Linux.

Logging into router. Not sure why. I guess your router uses a web server for control? They should use the simplest and standard-compliant html codes. And if Konqueror is not working the way you like, have you tried Firefox?

Linux is a bird nest of confustion. That's of course true. The same goes for any OS. You're lucky to have ghost and Windows preinstalled. I recently saw a friend installing XP on a Shuttle nForce system - it took forever and multiple installations. Windows is easier but it's mainly most work has been done for you.

Linux is neither slow nor unstable. Linux may look slow when you didn't have the accelerated display driver. Linux could be ugly, depend what do you mean by that.

Why on earth ANYONE would use Linux for a home system is a mystery. I don't really know. I'm a fulltime Linux user but I'm still surprise why novices bother to take the effort to learn...

Until...

[Eric Damron]

...the voter's find out and get really pissed... Then some things change briefly during the damage control PR campaign...

Re:I don't get it

[SatanicPuppy]

PPPoE is stupidly easy to configure, and it's been around forever which doesn't bode well for your "DSL unsupported" comment.

Though I remember my cable company told me the same thing. Apparently they thought that DHCP was a Windows only service, or maybe that I was going to install their crappy connection utility. I ditched 'em later...they were a buncha Cox.

Bill Gates' Linux Attack Money?

[suitepotato]

Is this another new monster from Kingdom of Loathing?

Microsoft defending itself against a competing platform? Sending attack money out? No, say it ain't so.

(insert your favorite eyes rolling emoticon here)

Oops! Misread the headline

[panzerboy]

It's a shame, really, as "Following Bill Gates' Linux Attack Monkey" would have been a much more interesting story.

Three Sentences, Three Weasel Words

[Cr0w T. Trollbot]

In Monday's article we discussed how a dispute in the House Ethics Committee has kept the members from meeting and considering House Majority Leader Tom DeLay's activities that could have ramifications for Microsoft. In making legislators aware of many issues, the Redmond company's financial reach may be part of why the committee has delayed their investigation. Perhaps everyone involved hopes that a delay will allow the heat to pass on this and other issues.

I'm no Microsoft booster, but that's three sentences, marked by three weasels words, indicating the author isn't sure of anything, but has to throw these points in to support his conspiracy theory.

I stopped reading there.

Crow T. Trollbot

Re:I don't get it

[hswerdfe]

what was that rule about invoking Hiter in an IRC argument?

I don't quite remember?

anybody, anybody?

Re:I don't get it

[Anonymous Coward]

"Why on earth ANYONE would use Linux for a home system is a mystery.

Because, Stephanie, we read Microsofts EULA. Obviously you didn't. I take you like and accept Microsoft's terms? Okay, fine. But when you click "I Accept", you are letting Microsoft control your box, your computer experience and the software market. Those of use that arn't puppets on a string find F/OSS products work just fine.

But to each his own and it's clear that your post is part of the Microsoft ant-Linux monkey the article talked about. That is, you are not an everyday, plain Jane user. You are astroturfing.

Re:I don't get it

[ZephyrXero]

Well, it's a stupid rule...lol. Seriously, how is anyone supposed to have serious and honest discussion of such issues without mentioning "those guys".

Re:I don't get it

[sloanster]

So let me get this straight: microsoft windows is not as unstable as it used to be; in other words they have taken some baby steps towards reliability of the sort that linux users have long enjoyed, so now we are supposed to drop whatever we're doing and switch to microsoft windows? Sorry, you'll have to do much better than that.

--
The main problem with linux is that it requires the user to have an IQ above 75 for best results

Re:The Golden Rule. (v. 2)

[Anonymous Coward]

Whoever has the gold is evil

Re:I don't get it

[ZephyrXero]

People didn't used to understand the purpose of using seat belts in their cars, but they eventually learned ;P

Re:I don't get it

[nanoakron]

I don't think this is a +5 Funny comment, more like an allegorical +5 Insightful one over the present state of linux. Linux zealots rave on and on about how completely in control you are with the linux operating system, but put it in the hands of ANYONE ELSE IN THE WORLD and it will not do the things they want it to do.

Seriously. Make it user-friendly and it will sell. Rave on about 'how cool it is' and it will not.

Note to zealots: highlight my point and prove your total lack of irony by replying to this post telling me 'I'm a moron because I can't get gentoo to install' or 'I installed Mandrake, therefore you suck and therefore linux is cool and user friendly'. Remember, windows is still mainstream, linux is not and the plural of 'analogy' is not 'data'.

Re:I don't get it

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know about that. I have a rather old laptop with an integrated soundcard. The soundcard works perfectly well in Beos and Windows 2000. But neither Gentoo nor Ubuntu wants to recognize said card.

OhMyGawd!

[kclittle]

Tom Adelstein has discovered that (gasp, I'm in shock! Are you ready for this?!):

People with lots of money have lots of political clout, and they tend to use it!

Get a grip, dude. This is everyday politics in just about every organized collection of humans on earth. Has been for, oh, I dunno, a hundred and twenty thousand years or more?

(Of course, the whining about the aforementioned state of affairs has been going on for, oh, a hundred and nineteen thousand years...)

Re:OhMyGawd!

[Anonymous Coward]

Tip: cynicism != intelligence, even though it is often mistaken for it.

Re:I don't get it

[yo_tuco]

Stephanie -- oops, I mean paid shill -- Can you say:

A s T r O t U r F i N g

Re:I don't get it

[BeatRyder]

I have the same notebook, and I have to agree with you. I am using Gentoo, but unless I hack my kernel to bits, I get a squeal from my motherboard that does not happen in windows....

No, the BIG damn shock is...

[argent]

This isn't news. This isn't the big shock. The big shock is that this apparently is news to a lot of Microsoft apologists. Or, at least the ones who were denying that Microsoft bought their way out of the antitrust case.

Re:No, the BIG damn shock is...

[kclittle]

If there were Microsoft apologists to whom this really is news, they be idiots. The rest were just doing what they were paid to do. :)

Re:No, the BIG damn shock is...

[argent]

Ok, you win, I'm not cynical enough.

getting away with it.

[Erris]

Oh puh-lease. There are plenty of companies with that kind of clout

Please yourself.

It's not "clout" it's ability to break the law and get away with it through bribes and fast talking. Oil and defense companies may have their influence but they have not been flaunting anti-trust law and getting away with it after conviction. That other corruption may exist is no reason to look the other way, especially with something as important as software is to your rights to free speech, privacy and financial security. Murder may be more "important" than rape, but rapists should be put away.

There are also important differences in industry to consider economies of scale and product. It takes a single computer and one person to make high quality software. Developing a new battle tank and finding the fuel to drive are at least five orders of magnitude more expensive. Also, I'm not aware of a free fuel or free arms movement who have the ability to make infinite coppies of their vastly superior product but can't find a vendor.

That M$ continues to push it's crap onto hardware makers, vendors and the general public is inexcusable. The end result will be a world without privacy and continued news/entertainment monopolies of the 1920s. The US government had it's chance to stop it.

Now it's up to each of us to put a stop to the idiocy. Don't buy or use or recommend M$. It's that easy. Not for your wife, neighbor or relatives. Free software is easier and better. M$ can't live forever without customers and their platform merits few of those.

Re:getting away with it.

[DogDude]

It's not "clout" it's ability to break the law

The same kind of law that the DMCA is, you mean? Arbitrary and pointless? What's your point? Are you another person who trots out "law" when it fits his argument? If so, you probably should try to avoid being so hypocritical in the same post.

Don't buy or use or recommend M$.

That's influential. I like the childish use of "M$". What are you going to do next, call them "poopy heads"?

It takes a single computer and one person to make high quality software.

Name a single person that has built a high quality OS by themselves. Just one. How about a high quality office suite? How about a high quality accounting package?

Re:getting away with it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Please do us a favor. Stop writing these diatribes that sound like you're making a point about freedom of expression or the right to life or war or some other issue that has more weight than software and computers. When you show me how open source helps save lives in Africa, we'll talk. In the meantime Bill Gates' foundation is vaccinating millions of them. WHat have you been doing besides blowing hot air on Slashdot in a bad Stallman imitation?

And also, if you can, stop using that childish, retarded "M$" deal that ceased to be funny six years ago.

Thanks.

Re:getting away with it.

[Anonymous Coward]

hi twitter, plz shut the fuck up, kthx

Re:windows users don't have bugs, viruses, spyware

[AaryaPatta]

I gave up. I have been trying to use Linux as my main computer. Damn...even for a very little thing, I have to struggle a lot. My USB wireless card still doesn't work. It's not pain in the arse..it's pain in whole body. I wanted to edit a few VB Script files and I couldn't sucessfully setup vbs file association to a gedit program...it's ****ing 3rd day I was stuggling. Then, I thought why do I have to punish myself with Linux while Windows works perfectly for my job. I dont' have spyware or any malware and didn't hit my windows pcs. I am happy with Windows, eventhough I knew other options available.

Splitting Microsoft up would have made them richer

[argent]

The problem is the government was trying to put them out of business.

Don't be silly. Monopoly is a horribly inefficient way for a business to operate. Breaking up a monopoly usually ends up with the resulting companies, after the shake-out, being worth more in total than the original company did. That's been the case all the way back to US Steel.

In the case of Microsoft, they have for years been deliberately crippling their own products to make them serve the purpose of promoting the Windows monopoly (which has now topped out, they've got nowhere left to grow in the US... all they can do is try and convince people to buy Windows over again with Longhorn) instead of making them as effective as they can be in their own right. They're still acting like a start-up with one product, instead of spreading out and taking on new markets using whatever tools Microsoft Research can come up with, they're trying to figure out how to tweak a competent if mediocre desktop OS into doing the job.

Microsoft, split up, wouldn't be worrying about the challenge from Linux, they'd be USING Linux to take on IBM, or Walmart...

Just so we're all on the same clear thread...

[ShoobieRat]

Microsoft has unparalleled influence throughout the Federal government.

Aside from the Navy and Marines (who run almost entirely on Microsoft products), the Army, Pentagon, FBI, and CIA (just to name a few) all run with a unix core and a Windows enterprise application suite. (In short, the machine is unix but you work with Windows.)

Of course Microsoft is going to try as hard as they can to get their products into everything they can. This is business. MS has the money, the power, and the consumer grip, to lug themselves into just about anything on command. What company out there is going to NOT try to get their product in before their competitor? This isn't brain surgery, folks. So MS is trying to bash Linux so it can gain a bigger peice of the pie...This honestly shouldn't be shocking or freaking-out anyone.

Re:I don't get it

[NoMoreNicksLeft]

Seriously. Make it user-friendly and it will sell

I could be considered a linux zealot. But you need to keep several things in mind.

#1 I can't speak for everyone, but I will say that I couldn't care less if linux "sells" either literally, or metaphorically. If my dumbass neighbor wants to continue using Win98, and wondering why it doesn't work, I simply don't care. I do reserve the right to laugh at him.

#2 It does pain me to use windows, say for whatever job I have. So this might be a mild exception to the above rule.

#3 It can't be made any more "user-friendly" than it it. People need to make themselves less "logic-hostile". No one complains that calculus needs to be more user-friendly. Most people realize how dumb that would be. If you need the things that only calculus provides, you don't go after watered-down-math... when you do, you pay consequences. There is no substitute for calculus that is worth having. Most people stay away from calculus, but they have messed up ideas on what a computer is supposed to be, and so...

#4 They need to learn what in the hell it is they want. A game machine? Buy a playstation. A web browser? Well give me a fucking break, linux does that fine already, you're just a tard. Email too. It's a little fuzzy when you get around to word processor/spreadsheet still (I admit that), but many people that think they want a word processor would do just fine with a text editor, and linux has that covered. Oh, wait, you use image editing, Photoshop? You're either a liar or a tard, buy a Mac of some sort.

Now, all that said, if you're a person not so dissimilar to myself, and you like doing truly interesting things with computers... well, if you need help, just ask. Everyone needs help of some kind, and I'm usually glad to give it.

Newbies shouldn't choose Fedora..

[delire]

.. it's Redhat's little experiment to see if the community can sustain development of a distribution whose parts or whose sum may become useful in their enterprise editions later. it has no primary project of maintaining an easy to use desktop platform. their own site makes this quite clear.

and so i wasn't suprised that all my encounters with Fedora prove it's far more suited to very interested enthusiasts than new users. this seems due to the Redhat association; as though being tagged with such a name brand it has proven itself to be ready for widest distribution.

Fedora needs alot of work to be a sensible productivity platform for Jane Sixpack. Ubuntu or Mepis are far more suitable for new users, out-of-the-box. given the choice of all three, nearly all of my students dropped Fedora for the Debian-based Mepis and Ubuntu distributions.

administrators shouldn't be so easily swayed either. Fedora is difficult to maintain and install compared to that of Mepis or Ubuntu. it took 2 of us 4.5 hours to install Mepis on 30 dell workstations, all just worked with absolutely *no* after-the-fact configuration. Fedora Core 4 took 3 people 2 full days to get to that state on the same number of machines.

Fedora, as a would-be flagship of Desktop Linux for so many, gives a bad first impression. Fedora users promoting the project should read the distribution home page before reccommending it to uncle Keith.

then again, it seems uncle Keith has already decided.

Partnership

[nurb432]

When will Microsoft be parterning with the entertainment industry, and try to take over everything on the planet?

At that point they will have the funds and political power to pretty much dictate the rules we all live by.. And not be bound by any constitution.

Its all Gary Kildall's fault. ( thats a joke.. laugh )

Misunderstanding of cause and effect

[jmorris42]

> I don't mean to discourage the notion that our leaders sell out cheaply,
> they certainly do.

Look, I'm as cynical as the next guy, but lets be honest about the relationship between lobbists and congresscritters. At most they can influence a congresscritter on issues they are ambvalent on. If they are strongly invested in one side of an issue they usually won't budge. Where lobbists exercise their influnece is more effective, and when disclosed, perfectly honest. They influence WHO gets elected and who stays elected.

Think about it. Would the average socialist congresscritter start supporting the war in Iraq if Halliburton dumped the biggest shitload of money any reelection fund has ever seen on their desk? No. Would the average conservative switch to being for abortion if NARAL dumped a similar shitload on their desk? No.

What the money buys is a hearing, where you get to make your case, and on a case like Microsoft most congressmen aren't politically invested either way so it counts big. They get to wail about how unfair it all is, how it is going to cost American jobs and competitiveness, etc. And since the counter side isn't yet organized enough to put the other side of the argument to the congresscritter.... Plus they can dump large sums to those who ARE politically predisposed to support their opposition to anti-trust laws in general, etc. And equally as important, support the opponents of their more vocal foes.

Re:Microsoft - sole sourcing IT resources?

[sakshale]

These days I ask corporate people if they would accept a single provider for a critical part in a product they were manufacturing. When they give the by-the-book answer of, "Of course not." I then ask them why they have allowed their critical corporate IT infrastructure to be tied to a sole source provider and what would be the impact on the corporate bottomline if MicroSoft decided to raised their fees in a significant manner. If we can just change their mindset...

I did everything I could from what I read...

[exp(pi*sqrt(163))]

...from Linux forums.

You are all still missing the point. My Mom, with no previous computer experience, is now able to surf the web, edit short movies and manage her digital photographs without ever having to join a Windows forum.

So just compete

[Anonymous Coward]

Why keep whining about Microsoft. If you can do better, then in this capitalist society then do so. Make better products and give them some competition because nobody else is.
They are in the position they are in because the competition was weaker and MS made great stuff.
Can you make a cheaper better Excel or Outlook, then do so because no one else has come close.

English, English

[NimNar]

...,Microsoft is as powerful than ever.

or is it:
...,Microsoft is more powerful as ever.

No, wait!
...,Microsoft is more powerful than ever.

Yes, 10,000,000 people will read this so it's important that I get it right!

Re:I don't get it

[MightyMartian]

This notion of clean installs on Windows is such a bloody myth. At this very moment I'm in an upgrade hell with Office 2000. I upgraded it to SR1 due to security concerns, and now, whenever some users try to log on to the machine, it's starts this post-install process and gives me an ugly error about not being able to find source media. I've put the Office 2000 CD in, it doesn't like it. I'm faced with uninstalling and then reinstalling and hoping it works. Let's face it, if the Windows install system is any better, it's only marginally better. I still have a phantom of Netscape 4 on one computer (yes I know, go into the registry blah blah blah, but that only proves my point).

Re:I don't get it

[Talrinys]

So true What people need to understand is, that if someone wants to do something they can do with a nice shiny GUI in Windows you shouldn't tell them: Well we have 79 different command line interfaces for that, but you don't need a GUI, you really don't, seriously, we mean it, and if we keep telling you you might believe it. Of course the pleasure of getting away from Microsoft outweighs every single little bug and irritating thing about Linux, cause if there is a bug in Linux, people cares, if it is in Windows, it's usually your fault in Microsofts eyes. You are not gonna get the average chat/surf internet user to change to Linux using that argument though, not before you can show them a nice GUI and then point out all the advantages over Windows Linux has(which by all means it does, i mean, it feels so damn nice to feel like you are interacting with an OS, not a GUI controlling a bugged program to make a bugged GUI for a working program work) Sorry for rambling :-P

Let's see

[JChung2006]

Microsoft is playing the same game in Washington that every other big business does. This doesn't surprise anybody except naive /. article contributors. On the bright side, maybe this will open up some eyes and get people less fanatically obsessed with moronic "Linux > Microsoft" dogma and more involved in addressing problems that actually make a difference in people's lives.

Re:I don't get it

[Anonymous Coward]

don't use Linux if you don't want to. For me it just gets the job done, I have little need to make it "better" or sell it to anyone. The only good reason to forcefully convert people away from Windows is to reduce the amount virus-spam zombie machines on the Net. Many of those people are buying a Mac right now, because Windows is broken.

I call bullshit!

[Progman3K]

I switched from Windows to Linux at home two years ago and sure, it was a bit of a learning curve, but I'm much happier now.

Call me a ricer, but my Gentoo box is ten times more stable and faster than that bloated crapware Windows EVER was.

Also, most software available through the Gentoo catalog (emerge system) is higher quality than virtually everything Microsoft provides "for free".

The only problem I've had is that my TV tuner card is not supported; I wish I had known about Linux before I bought it.

So, who are you going to believe? Some anonymous coward who mudslings and runs away or someone who is telling the true story of what they experienced?

Re:I don't get it

[Anonymous Coward]

No use agruing about specifics but because neither of us could prove our points to the others but my kids and I have been using Linux for about 18 months, infact, we are using our $199 Mircotel machines bought from Wal-mart preinstalled with Lindows (although I loaded Mandrake on shortly after). I have ONE windows machine in the house and it is ONLY used for a few games, mainly only the Sims2 and Zoo Tycoon.

Obviously, YMMV

Re:I don't get it

[AArmadillo]

It takes no longer to boot than XP,

Whoa, hold up there buddy. I was with you until this point. My XP install boots up in four seconds off of my SATA drive, while linux takes about 35 seconds. As much as I like linux, I highly doubt any linux install takes "no longer to boot" than XP.

Re:windows users don't have bugs, viruses, spyware

[Anonymous Coward]

The parents forget there is an even larger number of people who are fed up by viruses, spyware and other windows problems (yes windows has some shortcomings, did you know ?).

Right, that's why I bought a Mac mini. Plugged it in and well, dammit, it just worked. No complaints.

Re:I don't get it

[ghukov]

Yeah, kinda makes me feel like some sort of uber geek... Linux isn't for everyone. Then again, computers aren't for everyone. (@GP)If anyone wants to learn some linux, start off with a live cd distro so you don't have to trash your hard drive. It took me a few years to get to the level of linux usability I have now. Linux in the home can be quite useful as a firewall, voice mail system, streaming audio player for the living room, file server.... many, many uses.

Re:I don't get it

[a1cypher]

Linux is great, *if* you know what your doing.

I will admit that for most people, its not the best OS to use because it requires alot more configuration and setup than a windows OS.

But, if you want more flexibility, more control over how things work, more options (ie serving) then Linux is WAY better than windows.

Out of the box linux may be a bit difficult to use, but once your in for a month or so and have it configured to your liking, it is better.

Alot of the stuff that you complained about are simply issues with installing software.

For example, web browser rendering (I havent had a problem with Konq personally) you can install Firefox or Opera and they both render every website I have ever used perfectly fine. Its especially great when you install mozPlugger (for video plugins) and the flash player.

Your complaints about mp3 and mpeg problems sounds like another software installation that needs to be done. For video, just go download mplayer with the codec packs and install, xmms should handle mp3s fine.

All the other stuff sounds like configuration problems. The video especially. People can spend a long time configuring their video for the first time.

Anywho, to make a long story short, as I said earlier, Linux is awesome if you know what your doing and are willing to spend some time to get it right. I would also recommend running the latest version of SuSE Pro, it does a pretty good job of autodetecting things right out of the box. Video should work fine by default, but you will have to mess around if you want 3D to work well.

Re:I don't get it

[Anonymous Coward]

"My DSL connection did not work and when I called support they said that Linux was not supported. ...
MANY, MANY, MANY web pages did not display correctly."

There is an odd smell associated with this.

Would you rather be evil and then lose anyway?

[Pfhorrest]

And, in the end, when the bad guys stand triumphant, will you be satisfied when you look in the mirror and say to yourself, "Well, at least I went about it 'the right way'"?

Would you rather stand triumphant over the bloodied corpses of your enemies, and those of all the bystanders who stood in your way, look your corrupted bad-guy self in the mirror and say, "Well, at least I won"?

Being good and failing is no good.

Being evil and winning is no good either.

Thankfully the two are not mutually exclusive, and it is possible to be good and win. In the end, it's inevitable that, if anybody wins, it will be the good guys. Any victory for evil must be short-lived, as evil thrives by exploiting the good. Once good has lost completely, evil's fall can't be far behind.

I like to think of it as a swimming analogy. We're all trying to stay afloat. The good guys are the ones who can tread water and keep themselves up. Maybe some really strong good people can keep others up too. The evil ones are those who can only stay afloat by pushing down on others. So long as there are good folks around, the evil ones can put weight on them to keep themselves afloat - and if the good are strong enough, they can tolerate that and we have no problem.

But if too many or too heavy evil people drag all the good people down, and all you've got left are the evil ones, then pretty soon everybody's going to drown. Nobody's swimming anymore; they all just thrash about, trying to be the last person with their head above water before everybody dies.

Sure, we'll all get tired and be unable to swim anymore after a while. But maybe we can teach someone else to swim before then, and they can teach someone else, and so long as there are new people, someone will always stay afloat; and if enough people are good swimmers, the tired and evil of the pool will hardly make a difference. But if nobody swims anymore, and everyone just relies on being able to put their weight on some good swimming... well, now there are none, and we're all done for.

In the end, being good is the only winning option. Isn't that kind of the definition of "good"?

Re:Would you rather be evil and then lose anyway?

[stony3k]

Maybe the good guys should just move to a new swimming pool? Who is John Galt, anyway?

Re:Would you rather be evil and then lose anyway?

[Pfhorrest]

Maybe the good guys should just move to a new swimming pool?

That's the idea. All that good has to do to defeat evil is keep the hell away from it and let it die on its own.

The catch here, though, is there are those who are not evil, but just tired - people unable to support themselves, because they've been swimming a long time, or have been dragged down by evil folk, or just got caught in a rip tide. They've done nothing wrong, and if the good are strong enough to save them as well, shouldn't they? So the difficulty comes in separating the tired from the evil. I'd say, don't bother... if you can't support those pulling you down, just get away from them. If you can, whether they're evil or just plain tired, you should. Maybe the evil ones can learn to swim. They're really just afraid of drowning, in the end.

One other problem lately, is we've only got one pool we can get to, it's getting rather crowded, and there's hardly an empty corner to escape from the evil people in. In that case the only hope is for the good to be stronger and smarter; be able to stay afloat despite those pulling them down, and teach others to swim on their own to lessen the load on everyone.

Who is John Galt, anyway?

I don't know, who mentioned him?

Re:windows users don't have bugs, viruses, spyware

[Anonymous Coward]

Apparently you missed the crux of my argument. The fact that Linux is open source is all the reason you should need to switch. To achieve freedom and security you must give up some convienence. I've been struggling with learning Linux for over a year now, but I'm still not giving up on it.

Did you ever know that you're my hero,
and everything I would like to be?
I can fly higher than an eagle,
for you are the wind beneath my wings.

SuSE is easy to use.

[Anonymous Coward]

I dule boot with SuSE and windows, but im stuck in windows simpley becasue ATI are no help for supplieying 9800 Drivers, thus no 3D, thus i carnt play any OpeGL games in SuSE. I do use it some times for opensource software that hasnt yet been built for windows. Which is the main reason i dont use it as offten as i would like to. I do how ever have a FreeBSD server which i have got quite atuned to, again with FreeBSD, no radeon 9800 drivers so no games. Althow Linux, FreeBSD and other Unix varients make excelent servers, there not so good as a desktop OS even though they look far better then windows.

Re:SuSE is easy to use.

[Halvy]

I know this may sound silly, but by purchasing another video card (nVidia) that has FULL linux and windoz support, you'll not only have your 3d games running better than windoz, but you will be supporting linux-- by supporting the companies (like nVidia) who have gone-out-on-a-limb to help free people from the evil-dragoon, and hence give us more choices-- that work.

Also remember that Suse, as good as she is, is now owned by novell, so the distro is moving more towards specializing in Network applications/servers.

If i'm not mistaken, 9.2 suse actually *had to* hurry and come out with a second *9.2* called: '9.2 Audio', with sound/video enhancements, because the original 9.2 distro lacked in them so much.

Vector Linux (based on slackware, a VERY well repsected varient, which I am beginning to think may be the best overall desktop linux out there) seems to be a good package if you like cutting-edge features (like a desktop that shimmers just like a pool, complete with little penguins moving all around and playing in it ;)

I'd stay away from Knoppix, because again, like suse (and most linux distros actually), has it's *main* purpose, and being installed on your hd and working properly off-the-bat is NOT one of them.

If you go Debian *proper* tho, you can tweak a box that will have fine audio/video.

good luck! :)

Say wha?

[bobbagum]

Did anybody else read the headline as Bill's Attack Monkeys?

You are right!!! Everything must be simple to use

[Anonymous Coward]

You have to make the whole installation process able to be accomplished by your grandmother (or your dad, who doesn't know the right end of a remote control). Microsoft can do this because they are at the center of the computer universe and everyone comes to them and they set the new standards etc.(that't why the make crap and charge $$$ for it etc.).

Remember, the masses that buy computers are stupid and really don't care whats in the box or whats loaded into the box, but that box had better boot up and work most of the time. like your telephone, radio, tv and car, its that simple. (like the old engineering proverb from world war 2: KISS (keep it simple stupid). Simple install, simple operation, not everyone wants to be, or is a nerd and could care less about tech stuff.

One problem and it's not the victims.

[Erris]

Then you are the problem.

Don't blame the victim. The whole anti-trust case was that M$ made it insanely hard to compete much less be free. Freedom seems to be overcoming M$, but we should not blame the victims of constant advertising barages, lack of choice at the vendor level and coercive force at the manufacturing level.

Are you using Windows every day?

No, but I might if that's what my job required. I don't have an OS choice on hardware I don't own and other people sometimes make stupid/lazy choices.

Did you set up a Windows computer for your parents, grandparents, or other friends because FreeBSD/Linux/NetBSD/MacOS is "too complicated"?

Hell no. I show them free software and let them bear the full cost of ignoring my advice. I'm not part of the problem, but I know better than to blame my mom for using M$ because AOL has no Linux access client and refuses to use normal.

Microsoft is the problem, period, end of story. The reason things are so complicated is largely a matter of M$ being able to force NDAs based on their market position. If you owned a video card company, would you dare release specs if you knew that M$ would turn around and break your Windoze drivers with their next "update"? I might, because a free world is better than the one that exists now, but I know that it would cost me market share. Microsoft also uses stupid file formats, DRM, and every other kind of incompatibility to make being free a difficult thing. The result is that their product does not work, but even that they use to their advantage by arguing for ISP restrictions and other stupid crap that again makes it hard to be free.

The world will be a much better place when M$ goes away.

Re:One problem and it's not the victims.

[mi]

Microsoft is the problem, period, end of story.

Microsoft is not the problem. They are a perfectly legitimate business offering a product.

If you hate it -- do not use it. You will not be sent to jail for that, nor will you be tortured or killed.

Re:One problem and it's not the victims.

[Anonymous Coward]

I show them free software and let them bear the full cost of ignoring my advice

What a pompous, angry little child.

M$... Windoze... M$... M$... M$... M$... M$... M$... M$... M$...

Ridiculous, pompous angry little child.

The world will be a much better place when M$ goes away.

I was thinking the same thing about Slashdot, but in regards to people like you. It's people like you, making these stupid long-winded bogus arguments peppered with dumb, unfunny insulting epithets that make it harder for some of us to have free sofware taken seriously out there in the real world.

Please stop.

Re:One problem and it's not the victims.

[xeno-cat]

"Microsoft is not the problem. They are a perfectly legitimate business offering a product."

A lagitimate business is what ever "We The People" say it is. Thats the social contract that is granted to a corporation. They get to exist as long as it is more of a benefit to society than a harm. If it becomes harmful then the people are supposed to be able to revoke corporate status. We are a nation of laws and the people are supposed to be able to change the laws to suit the type of society they want. So saying Microsoft is the problem is quite simply stating that if it were put to vote, MS would get the corporate death penalty according to the poster.

Just because MS is currently a "legit" business (which they are not, according to court documents that were only overturned on a technicality) does not mean that they get to do whatever the heck they please for all time. Or do you prefer to live in a corporate oligarchy instead of a democracy?

Kind Regards

Re:One problem and it's not the victims.

[mi]

the people are supposed to be able to revoke corporate status

This kind of arbitrary and capricious "revokations" is what makes some countries less inviting to business, than the others. The tend to develop (much) slower as a result.

Power of "you the people" is trivial. It is assuring the power of minorities and downright individuals over their lives (and wealth), that is tricky. Bill Gates ought to be free to do as he pleases -- just as you and me.

His corporation does not exist to benefit "the society" (much less the community -- a dirty word) nor to provide its employees with jobs. It exists to make its owners wealthy. Period. (No, I'm not condoning their breaking the law -- that's a different topic.)

It just so happened, that corporations' activities towards their own good tend to benefit the rest of us. But they can not be destroyed simply because enough voters hate them.

That said, I'm pretty sure, Microsoft would win any such referendum...

that if it were put to vote, MS would get the corporate death penalty according to the poster.

This sort of Democracy was soundly discredited over two thousand years ago, when Athenians (sp?) condemned Socrates to death by poisoning. 400 judges (almost as many as there are Congressmen, but from a much smaller population) heard the case and the majority voted against him...

But, at least, Socrates was accused and convicted of breaking law (against blasphemy). Athenians also had a tradition of, literally, voting off the city people many citizens disliked. I don't know about your ambitions, but I would not want to live in such a society -- I already pissed off a few people. Imagine if Senator Kerry had to go into exile last November... Wow, what people power!

Or do you prefer to live in a corporate oligarchy instead of a democracy?

I suspect, that I would prefer to live in (almost) anything, but what you think is a Democracy. I like America's Republic the most, though, thank you very much.

I hate to sound like a defender of Microsoft, but I fail to see, how people can blame it for having to use it, when the harshest penalty for not using it is losing one's job. Considering the demographics of the Slashdot crowd, the usual (semi-)acceptable excuse of having to provide for one's family would not apply to most people either.

It is not like you have to live in a jungle with AK-47 or go to GULAG for 15 years... Just say: "No".

Re:One problem and it's not the victims.

[xeno-cat]

"His corporation does not exist to benefit 'the society"

Exactly, which is why there was a federal lawsuit as well as several State lawsuits. That MS can get off on technicalities has nothing to do with the reality of the Government stepping in to insure that MS maintains a level of social good that is greater than it's harm. The fact that they keep getting the most bazzar settlements that effect nothing is reflective of a broken system that is being exploited by corporations, not of any rights those corporations have.

Corporations are given charters to perform some activity. They are issued those charters by the Government. The Government is for and by the people. It follows that the Government should not be allowing charters that ultimatly hurt society. This is, in fact, the way things are supposed to work and is the lip service that we hear.

I have no idea why your bringing up Socrates, the GULAG and AK-47's. There are plenty of more relavent details you are missing and I would suggest you start with those. But I have read the writings surrounding the trial of Socrates and it sounds much like what we have today. A selfish oligarchy attempting to maintain it's power despite the common good. It always amazes me that some people can get so knotted up when someone suggests that perhaps the people have the power to determin society. If you think I'm saying anything else, your not listening.

Kind Regards

Re:One problem and it's not the victims.

[mi]

Corporations are given charters to perform some activity.

You got it backwards. People are free to do anything, they please (within laws). Forming corporations is one of these freedoms.

Government should not be allowing charters that ultimatly hurt society

Hurt society in whose opinion? The government's? The corporation's? Its customers? Or its competitors?

I have no idea why your bringing up Socrates, the GULAG and AK-47's.

The point was that resisting a corporation (even a big one like Microsoft) is FAR easier, than other kinds of resistance. If people still don't do it, blaming Microsoft for the apathy is stupid.

If you -- hating Microsoft so much -- still use it, than you have nothing to add here -- you are the problem and I am the victim of your (in)actions.

There are plenty of more relavent details you are missing and I would suggest you start with those.

We disagree on a much greater picture -- there is no point arguing about trees, when we can't agree on the principle of forest.

But I have read the writings surrounding the trial of Socrates and it sounds much like what we have today. A selfish oligarchy attempting to maintain it's power despite the common good.

(Athens was a Democracy -- Sparta was an oligarchy -- but neither really had corporations, so they can not be said to be "much like what we have today".) Socrates was advocating (among other things), that slavery is wrong and that priests and superstitions are foolish. His anti-slavery advocacy is what really pissed people off (slaves were quite affordable in Athens and even the poor had them) -- not just the "blasphemy". He was -- quite democratically -- put to death.

perhaps the people have the power to determine society

They do... And I'm more scared of "the people", than of Microsoft.

Re:One problem and it's not the victims.

[xeno-cat]

"You got it backwards. People are free to do anything, they please (within laws). Forming corporations is one of these freedoms."

The key term is "within laws", which is where corporations exist. Jesus.

"The point was that resisting a corporation (even a big one like Microsoft) is FAR easier, than other kinds of resistance. If people still don't do it, blaming Microsoft for the apathy is stupid."

What other kinds of resistence are easier? It seems to me that resisisting corporate take over is proving to be the single hardest thing to do in the modern age.

"If you -- hating Microsoft so much -- still use it, than you have nothing to add here -- you are the problem and I am the victim of your (in)actions. "

I do not use any proprietary software. I dont use any MS software either. Not sure where you got that idea but it is reflective of the rest of your argument in that it shows your willingness to invent your own facts to argue against.

Basicaly, you are having trouble sticking to the point and are all over the map. No worries, it's just grist for the mill.

Re:I don't get it

[penix1]

"My father accepted it well enough (hell, he even told me it was sometimes nicer than Windows) but for the rest of the family it was a no-no. I was keen to learn but the RPM hunt and the randomness of program functioning is what bought me back to Windows."

Your problem was two-fold. First, you are not proficient enough yourself to resolve problems as they arise. This can be frustrating especially if you are under pressure to "make it work!" from others. What you need to do is get another machine (it doesn't have to be top-of-the-line) solely to experiment on. This machine is called in CompSci circles a "testbed". When testing is done and you are sure everything works (and are confident that it will stay that way) then, and only then, install that program on the computers in use. You will be amazed as the levels of frustration drops with the family off your back.

Second, never, never, never try to force someone to use something they don't want to use. There are other ways to make them want to make the switch. For example, I don't clean up my family's computers after they get them infested with spyware, adware, and virii. I let them do it. I may provide pointers from time to time but that is about it. After a few times they will eventually see that you are not doing that constant fight in Linux and may want to try again. The point is, they have to want to do it not you forcing the issue.

B.

Definition: Lobbyist

[micromuncher]

A group of persons engaged in trying to influence legislators or other public officials in favor of a specific cause.

In the Great Republic, government is driven by the lobby. It is a mistake to believe that elected officials implement the will of the public. Most affect comes from the lobby groups.

Those persons elected get wined, dined, and otherwise gladhanded to by the lobbyists and in turn "lend an ear" and possibly promote their position.

So why is this news? The NRA, Tobacco companies, farmers/producers of xyz, oil companies, ad nauseum have been pressing issues since inception of the Great Republic. Why should Microsoft's lobby be considered any different from any other?

No revelation that there is parity between "independant growers/farmers" in the US and the open source/free software communities. Both end up getting crushed by the well funded corporate entities... What is the different between giving away IE/Messenger/Player and keeping commodity prices artificially low? Not much IMHO. Mindshare and financial musle is what its about...

One OS on every Computer, Three Eyes on Every Fish

[saforrest]

Five years after running afoul of the Feds, Microsoft is more powerful than ever. Pushing a platform instead of products could make it stronger still. The question is, where do you fit in?

Lisa: "Mr. Burns, your campaign seems to have the momentum of a runaway freight train. Why are you so popular?"

Re:I don't get it

[Bent Mind]

I don't have any experience with Ubuntu. However, I have years of experience with SuSE and switched to Gentoo a couple of years back.

RPM hell: RPM (generally) only has problems if you try to install an RPM compiled by someone other than your distro. maintainer. This happens for various reasons. However, with SuSE, it was mainly because the package name includes the version number (rather then using RPM's built-in version handling) and most of the libraries are heavily patched. I switched to Gentoo because I kept finding myself compiling from source to get things working. I figured if I'm compiling from source anyway...

Video card resolution: I've never had a problem getting maximum resolution from a video card. I have one ATI system, the rest are nVidia. I do have problems with color depth though. I can't get 32-bit color to work. 24-bit works fine.

Capture programs: I believe he's talking about Video Capture, not image capture. I don't have any experience with the All-in-Wonder. However, I do have an nVidia GeForce 2 with built-in tuner (can't remember the name of it). I can get it to work with Linux. However, the quality is very poor. I bought a pchdtv card that works like a charm. As a side note, having your tv tuner on your graphics card sucks when you want to play the latest game and it requires an upgrade.

Music/Video skipping: Hmm, check your DMA settings. Maybe your not using your drives at full speed?

My printer (Brother all in one fax/copier/printer) did not work: I also have a Brother all in one. It doesn't work with Linux, even with Cups. I dumped the piece of garbage for an Epson R300. Works like a charm. I'd also recommend HP. The PSC 2400 makes a nice replacement for your Brother.

Couldn't log into my router: Many cheap routers have buggy web interfaces. Does your router support telnet, or better yet ssh?

Linux has it's problems, but then, so does Windows. I have a few webcams that work great under Linux, but don't under XP. The pchdtv also doesn't work under Windows. That said, use what works for you.

Re:I don't get it

[amliebsch]

That's ATI's fault for hating Linux, not the Linux community. We can't exactly create great drivers when the company doesn't release its specifications on the cards.

Why would this or any user care whose "fault" it is? It doesn't matter! Usability is not a function of blameworthiness.

Re:I don't get it

[chocotof]

perhaps Gentoo uses a different kernel ubuntu uses 2.6.10 with patches and I must say that everything worked (even hybernate)

long before Clippy there was....

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft Bob !!

new !

with avatars !!

yay !!

Re:I don't get it

[geekboy642]

"The main problem with linux is that it requires the user to have an IQ above 75 for best results"

Brilliant!
And I believe you win the thread.

Re:I don't get it

[Bent Mind]

It still takes someone in the home with some Linux ability to do the initial set up of the boxes.

It also takes someone in the home with some Windows ability to set up a Windows box. That's why Windows comes preinstalled.

Once every three months I get a call from my brother complaining about how slow his computer is running. Sure enough, his kids have infected or corrupted it. I tried to sell him on Linux, but his kids use it as a gaming system and he doesn't want to mess with Linux. So I reinstall his system and all is good for a while.

A couple of years back I put together a SuSE system for my 70-year-old mother. I haven't done anything with it since and she's very happy with it. Go figure... :)

Re:I don't get it

[penix1]

"Or what about Gentoo. Everything will work in Gentoo once you make it happen."

Are you stoned! You are sending a noob who has problems with RPMs to a source based distro where one has to configure everything by hand?!?!?!

I AM proficient in Linux and run Gentoo but would NEVER send a noob to it! If they really wanted Gentoo they should get someone who knows Gentoo to install it for them. That is the only way I would even consider it.

PROOF: cat /proc/version
Linux version 2.6.11-gentoo-r11 (root@halo) (gcc version 3.3.5-20050130 (Gentoo 3.3.5.20050130-r1, ssp-3.3.5.20050130-1, pie-8.7.7.1)) #1 Sun Jun 26 17:21:49 EDT 2005

yes it is a troll. google the text

[dingfelder]

yes it is a troll. google the text

it was pasted from a post in google groups

Oh, John Does, 1 - 200

[subtropolis]

Got it. So Jeffrey's pissed at the world, then.

Boo-fucking-hoo.

mistyped the quote

[subtropolis]

The article actually states "more powerful than ever"

Bizarro universe...

[Rufus88]

Is this come kind of joke?

It must be:

32. Defendant slashdot.org is an far-right wing Internet news website [...]

Economic warnings

[argoff]

The value of anything is merely what others are willing to give you for it. Money can be backed by gold because gold has a value to others. Money can be backed by the US government because the country has an intrinsic value to others.

That's the whole problem, economic truths are not about feelings and opinions. It's not that gold has high value (you can't eat it) it's that unlike paper currencies gold stores value for the trade and barter that is normal and healthy in free societies. Paper money does not store value and is easially manipulated against the holders best interest.

If you don't believe me now, just wait about till october thru december of this year. The housing market will collapse, the global economey with it, and the bankers of the world will all panic and print money like no tommorow to create "liquidity" causing hyperinflation.

If you are heavy in debt, you are screwed and even moreso if it is for real estate. (that will likely be confiscated) If you give value to your national governments paper money or bonds, you are even more screwed than that. Give it all the value you want, it won't help you.

Re:I don't get it

[denelson83]

You know, it really seems to me that the FOSS community really does not want to focus on true average-user-friendliness, because Microsoft beat it to that concept, and since Microsoft seems to be very adversarial to the FOSS community, it does not want to embrace a concept it thinks Microsoft already has a "stranglehold" on. That's why Windows is on almost 100% of the lower-end-users' computers, and not any of the free alternatives. No offence, but that is how I really see the big picture here.

Re:I don't get it

[dustmite]

Astroturfers are killing slashdot. But people fall for it and believe it, because few people realise astroturfing has become such a commonplace 'guerilla marketing' technique - they still think it's tinfoil hat stuff. That's why it works so well.

Most ad agencies that do work for big corps these days actually have two divisions, an 'above the line' and 'below the line' marketing division. It's standard fare for big companies to place "dual" ad contracts with the two divisions - one for 'traditional' marketing, the other for deceptive marketing like astroturfing, fake web sites, and so on.

Slashdot now reminds me of that old joke about KKK meetings consisting mostly of undercover reporters these days. Here half the discussion is astroturfers. Sometimes I even suspect we're seeing astroturfers working for one company arguing with those from another!

"Stephanie"'s post was an extremely obvious example of a 'paid shill' post - it's totally 'formula', from the textbook. Often these guys even repeat their own posts though, and you can catch them out with a bit of googling.

Re:I don't get it

[Anonymous Coward]

Whatever. If I were to give you a computer with a blank hardrive and a cd of WindowsXP you'd have issues, too! All of the things you talk about make me think you bit off more than you could chew. You should have taken the time to install it an get it working on one test box first and then the rest. Why would anyone use Linux? I do at school on my laptop because when I boot into WinXP AVG pops up every few seconds warning me about a virus! My college's computers are infested with that crap. BTW, everything works on my laptop under Linux. Wireless, battery monitor, sound, you name it.
And I didn't have to configure anything, it just worked! Why would anyone NOT use Linux!!!!!

Their site layout sucks!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Tired of morons that don't check their site layout in different video resolutions.
I refuse to read any site that demands I scroll back and forth to read it.

Re:I don't get it

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you fully booted in XP. Ya know XP is still loading shit well after the GUI.

Re:I don't get it

[burnin1965]

The long post really wasn't necessary as the title of your post says it all.

Its hard to say what you did wrong and why you had so many problems because your post is lacking any significant details.

Considering you are running WindowsME on one of those boxes I have to assume you are using the OS which came prepackaged and installed on the boxes. If that is the case then I would surely hope everything works without a hitch. Of course thats accepting all the short comings of the preinstalled software for what it is.

All I can tell you is that everyones mileage varies and do not assume that your inability to achieve acceptable mileage has anything to do with the true capabilities of the software. Its may be that you have much more ground to make up than the open source software you attempted to use.

And as for your question "Why on earth ANYONE would use Linux for a home system is a mystery.", I can give you my answer.

As a long time Windows user (1.1 through NT4) I became very dissatisfied with the product Microsoft was putting out. Contrary to the reality you are trying to portray Windows has its own hardware compatiblity nightmares and software defficiencies that present themselves when building a custom system, adding new or old hardware to an existing system, or installing additional software. As I endured my frustration I noticed that while Microsoft's products failed to make significant improvements the open source linux kernel and available software packages advanced at an astounding rate. Eventually the compatibility and capability of the open source offerings surpassed the Microsoft offerings and I eventually converted my entire home network to linux and have never looked back. To put it bluntly, it just works. And it works on:

1 Averatec 3250 Laptop
1 Toshiba Sattelite 1625 Laptop
1 Custom AMD64 dual head workstation
1 Custom mini-itx ogg player
1 Custom mini-itx firewall/router/wireless AP/dhcp/dns server
1 Custom mini-itx Atari floppy drive emulator
1 Custom mini-itx apache web server
1 Custom AMD Sempron postgresql server
1 Custom AMD Sempron quake3/unreal tournament 2004 server
1 Custom AMD Duron nfs root file/tftp pxe boot server
6 Custom AMD Sempron diskless, headless, pxe boot cluster nodes

So it appears that you and I have completely opposite experiences with the two software offerings. I guess you should just stick with your Microsoft install and I'll stick with my open source solutions. But I think its a mistake for you to try convincing others that linux and open source software just doesn't work because it may just be that you don't get it.

burnin

Re:I don't get it

[dtachev]

Linux tends to be favored by people who are passionate about a system they can fully control, tweak and even break. Figuring out problems is fun for them, not frustration. They do this all the time, not over the summer vacation.

Does Microsoft threaten hardware vendors?

[jonwil]

I wouldnt put it past microsoft to tell hardware and software vendors that if they support linux, there would be repercussions...

Who pays VARBusiness too?

[rdewalt]

I get VARBusiness here at work. Free. I've no idea how I got on their subscription list, other than probably my work address appearing in a list somewhere. I've never paid for it, nor is there a price on it or even a UPC/ISBN.

This issue mentioned above, came plastic wrapped with an add in "True Stories Of Adventure And Success" (sic) a Microsoft|Partner Program leaflet.

I trust them as far as I can comfortably spit a dead mouse.

Re:I don't get it

[Anonymous Coward]

Almost had me riled up there until the very last line: "Stephanie." *phew* Get back in the kitchen, hunny, and let the grown-ups talk.

Re:I don't get it

[a.d.trick]

Why on earth ANYONE would use the JSF for personal transportation is beyond me.

I'd just like to note that people don't use military fighters for personal transportation. Also, no one in there right mind would take a jet fighter to pick up the groceries, or go to the movie theater. When it comes down to the right tool for the job, a broken donkey cart is probably better than a jet fighter.

That said there are linux distros that are plenty user fiendly. For me an ubuntu install takes about 1-2 hours (and most of it doesn't require supervision), while a windows install is more like 5 hours.

Re:I don't get it

[psyon1]

You don't think if the public had this option, that they would take it? Look at the Hummer. It was designed to be a military vehicle, and the public demanded it. A few years later, everyone drives one and bitches about how much gas costs.

Re:I don't get it

[spuzzzzzzz]

I can't get 32-bit color to work. 24-bit works fine.

As far as X server colour depth goes, these two are exactly the same; 32-bit depth includes 8 bits of alpha (transparency). Since the root window of the X server is always opaque, it doesn't make any difference.

Re:I don't get it

[Doctor_Jest]

If more users demanded support for the cards in the OS they choose (other than Windows...) Perhaps it would be a moot point and drivers would be fine for both windows and XP. And such support won't affect die-hard windows users, because they don't even have to open the linux folder on the driver CD. If people ask, and ask some more, everyone wins. But silence breeds complacent companies and their ineffective, half-hearted, and windows-centric attitudes. Why should Linux be unsupported because it's free?

To be blunt, usability sometimes is a function of the users getting fed up with half-assed attempts and vendor lock-in. There is no excuse for not supporting Linux these days... there's enough of a userbase to make it worth companies' while.

Even Mac users have to raise hell about banking support and the like. Seems that supporting Windows is "good enough" these days... and the solution is of course to hold the companies' collective feet to the fire until they realize that Windows is not the only game in town. Supporting only one OS when there are more viable alternatives is just lazy.... :)

Troll or not

[j_w_d]

The poster clearly expected linux to be no more than a free windows. Also programs that didn't work would have been windows programs. The poster plainly doesn't know the difference between hardware and software, much less what an OS is. My gosh, they expected tech support at an ISP to help with Linux.

I once had a tech support conversation of substantially the following gist:

TS: We don't support linux.

Me: Darn. BTW, what do you servers run?

TS: Linux.

Me: ????

Me: O--K, but anyway, I just need the DNS and default gateway addresses.

TS: Why do you want those?

Me: So I can set up my system?

TS: Oh.

Tech support is almost pointless these days anyway. Basically, they talk you through screen a decent manual could explain. Especially in Windows you need competent tech support because user like that probably own their own network.

I would also think that the author probably somehow installed an enormous amount of software from the cds the complaints about confusion. Windows doesn't do this to you since you have to reinstall each proprietary program from its own cds.

Re:I don't get it

[DShard]

ubuntu takes a fraction of the time it takes me to boot windows. Neither of them are as fast as my car.

Re:I don't get it

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok, I'll feed the troll...
How many of the people in your family prefer incandescent bulbs?
How many people still buy Ford cars?
How many people still believe GM and Ford are American companies?
How many people prefer electric ovens?
How many people actually buy plasma televisions (and they're more expensive!)?
How many people buy the latest "Nike uber-leet-shocker-alizer" shoe?
How many people buy that crappy throw it together in 5 minutes furniture and assemble it wrong, then complain that it broke in two weeks (I worked at a furniture store, I know ;))?
How many people buy 5 bubble jet printers a year?
How many people think Windows98 is better than XP (I also worked at a computer repair shot, once again I know ;))?
How many people buy a new computer everytime their windows install get's buggered (see last comment ;))?

Just because the vulgate does something doesn't mean it's right: "If all the others boys jumped off a bridge, would you jump too?"
Or my modification:
"If all the other adults joined the Republicans or Democrats would you ignore third parties too?"

How many people still refuse to learn to drive a standard transmission after replacing three automatics (you've gotta be pretty hard on even a Ford to manage that, but I've seen it done)?
How many people can't wait long enough to go buy a condom?
How many people are too embarrassed to buy condoms?
How many people ever give any alternative a fair shot?

Re:I don't get it

[Approaching.sanity]

My first distro was Gentoo (I've been tooling around in it for about six months). Gentoo is hard, but it teaches you. If someone wants to learn how everything works, I wouldn't want them learn on anything else.

Re:I don't get it. You don't get it either!

[Anonymous Coward]

You've never seen what an ATI-All-in-wonder card can do on a Windows system have you?
I'm watching a re-run Daily News with John Stewart on Comedy Central in overlay mode while typing this and acknowledging my grammar and punctuation errrors but just not really caring one whit what you think.
Basically, linux turns this card into a simple low resolution video card like your nVidia.
With my Phillips Thunderbird sound card I've managed to totally destroy four THX certified, Dolby Digital 5.1 Surround sound systems from Klipsh and Logitech. Thank god I bought that really extended Best Buy warranty.
Linux doesn't support this card either.
Yeah linux boots, I've probably more linux boot cd's than you'll ever have, but it still sucks.

Re:I don't get it

[Handpaper]

Linux is not ready for lower end-users

Nonsense.
Linux is perfect for clueless newbies. Why? 'Cos they can't fuck it up, is why!
A work friend of mine wanted to 'try out this computer thing'. First thought:'Oh, shit. I'm going to have to reinstall this thing for him at least monthly, clean it up even more often, and he'll either get pissed off with the machine for screwing up (when it's his fault) or with me when I finally lose patience and tell him to RTFM.'
Careful questioning, however, revealed that he had barely heard of MS or Windows, and just wanted to 'surf the web, send email, play that funny card game (solitaire)'.
I spotted an opportunity.
I agreed to help him buy an older (PII-266 actually) machine, which would be very cheap, and more than adequate for his needs, and to install an operating system ('What's that?') and some useful programs. After a little thought, I used Mandrake 8.1, since it included lighweight window managers (I used Icewm), and installed Konqueror, Kmail, the Koffice suite, cups set up to use an old printer we'd found, xmms and every single silly little game on the install discs that would run on that ageing hardware (no tuxracer, cannon smash, or GLTron :-()
I then spent about an hour locking everything down as tightly as I could, including user settings.
I set him up with a username and password for himself and each of his two daughters, talked him through logging in and running a few apps, and left him to it.
I did not tell him the root password (in fact, I've probably forgotten it myself), the only filesystem mounted rw is /home, and all removable media mounts noexec.
It's now six months since I handed the box over to him. No 'phone calls. No complaints. No 'My computer's gotten awfully slow lately'.
I speak to him quite often at work; occasionally I ask how he's getting on with it. He has no problems using it, his daughters can do school stuff on it, even his mother found it easy to get to grips with.
Nothing has stopped working or become unusable, they haven't been trojaned, contracted any viruses or lost any data.
And they all love those silly little games :)

Re:I don't get it

[ozmanjusri]

You know, I find it odd that these people (Who likely tried Fedora) have all these problems

That's because it's not real. These posts are troll/astroturf red herrings designed to deflect discussion from the topic. Take a look at TFA. It's about Microsoft, politics and corruption. Now look at the 400+ postings and you'll see most of them are "My OS is better than yours".

Props to the dude that put this one together. It's successfully stifled what could have been a very interesting discussion about the way business influences policy.

Ok, I'll be the one to feed the troll taday :(

[Halvy]

lettuce c, linux, thee derivative of Unix, which is the OS that the world's Phone Network was built on, and then the InterNet, is NOT > than m$??

There, does that make you feel better!!

Ok, I'll say it aint so.

[Halvy]

M$ cannot physically defend itself against a platform that is NOT competing against it (remember, gnu is free). Your reasoning is not only an oxymoron, it is plain moronic.

Sending attack money out simply shows how scarred and desperete they are, that when all-is-said-and-done, there is going to be VERY harsh (jail, etc) Justice meaded out to all the conspirators of fraud in m$.

Your right, there are alot of eyes rolling out there, wondering about your comment and why your not in a nut house. :)

Very Parallel Influence

[jvv62]

It seems clear that the author of the article didn't realize that, even with Senator Leahy, the combined (alleged) Microsoft proxies are merely a spit in the bucket compared to some other industries. A given campaign contribution may make a difference to a Senator or Representative, but there are a lot of contributors out there and they are not all on the same side of every issue.

Apple, IBM, and Oracle are also members of BSA. So BSA is not just a Microsoft proxy like that foundation that put out pro-M$ white papers during the antitrust hearings.

The biggest problem for OSS on the hill is that there is not a lot of money to pay for people to travel to the hill and take folks to lunch. Forget Abramoff and the like. It still costs something to get to DC and meet people. It costs money and takes time to do research and write something useful for a hill staffer. There are plenty of lobbying excesses, but information is still not a cost free good. Why should we expect it to be free just because it relates to stuff we care about?

Finally, It's nice to see a lot of this stuff pulled together, but it would be even nicer if the writer had gotten more facts straight. Just one example: Leahy is now the ranking minority member, not the chairman of the Judiciary committee.

Re:I don't get it

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think we should spend anymore energy on the Windows vs Linux issue. It's waste of time too.

An average person is simply going to use what is the most readily available pre-installed OS and what he/she is given to use in the workplace. He/she will most probably use the same OS as the one in his/her office. That's why we should try to convince the enterprises to use Linux by concentrating our efforts on making Linux better in terms of ease-of-use and everyday applications.

As for the vendor problem, it is a chicken-and-egg problem. More people use, more vendor support. More vendor support, more people use. I see no instant solution to this.

For a few dollars more...

[Anonymous Coward]

Granted, free-as-in-beer is the best case scenario. You sound like someone at my level of expertise, though, for whom it might be worthwhile to spend $60 every year for ALL your software needs on a copy of SuSE professional. I have no ties to this company, but the Yast admin tool made setting up a network and fileserver with samba sharing really pretty easy. No conf or config files.

-Mean Joe

All I can say

[suezz]

is wow - what an article -

Why does our government continue to work for the corporations instead of for the people - I guess money is everything and maybe someday our big fat country will get off of it collective big fat arse and do something about it. Our digital rights are being stripped from us right in front of our own eyes and no one gives a crap except for the people that realize it is happening. It WILL come back to bite us someday and bite us bigtime.

Happy fourth of July everyone and happy birthday America!

Re:I don't get it

[lee1026]

it msy be that there is less people using OS X and linux, also the people that use them tend to call tech support less often as they have a better clue of what they are doing.

capitalism

[falconwolf]

The basic premise that economics is based on is that we all act self-interested and by doing so we are ALL better off and the world becomes a better place.

Ah, spoken like someone who knows Adam Smith's "The Wealth of Nations" . I'd like to reread it. Another good book along those lines is Natural Capitalism .

Something else I've wondered..... If everyone dropped proprietary software and went to Open Source, what would all these developers do to pay the bills and put food on the table? If it weren't for commercial companies willing to pay developers a salary so they can pay their bills, they wouldn't be able to develop other stuff for free. Or will everyone live off of Open Source bounties and "Donate" buttons?

Are you saying FOSS programmer don't get paid unless someone donates? Though it's a drop in the bucket compared to MS RedHat reported $12.4 million in earnings this past quarter. I wouldn't exactly say they are starving. Novell wouldn't of bought SUSE if they didn't think they could make money.

Re:capitalism

[Pentavirate]

I don't argue that there are indirect ways a company can make money via Open Source software and can, therefore, pay some programmers. But you have to admit that the number of people getting paid to do Open Source software is a very small percentage of the total number of people writing Open Source software. That's where my point lies. I'm not convinced that you can have OSS without proprietary software companies giving the programmers day jobs so they can work on their pet projects at night. Someone else made the point that most software developers code for companies internally. That may be the answer. Are there enough companies out there with such specific requirements that OSS wouldn't work for them and therefore they could employ all of the programmers that don't work for companies like Red Hat? I don't know. I'm just throwing it all out there for discussion.

"Reason" magazine

[falconwolf]

Per an article in Reason about this, Paypal will suspend your account if you link to those videos and they find out about it.

What issue of "Reason" did this appear in? Though I'm a pretty regular reader I don't recall reading anything of it.

Faclon

Re:"Reason" magazine

[St. Arbirix]

Newest, mine came in yesterday. Salman Rushdie is on the cover. The article is on pg60 called "Who Killed Paypal? - 'Consumer advocates' can make like miserable for consumers"

First paragraph:

In September 2004 Bill Quick received a notice from PayPal, the online payment company that facilitated reader donations to his Daily Pundit blog. The notice warned Quick that his account was on hold, and that it would be terminated unless he removed "hate" content from his site. This appeared to be a reference to Quick's link to a video of a terrorist beheading. PayPal sent a similar letter to Jarlaynn Merrit's civil liberties blog TalkLeft. Neither site is at all hateful, and both linked to the beheading video for reasons that, while controversial, were certainly within the realm of civil discussion.

PayPal, like the internet, was the poster child of libertarian values. The article details how as soon as they started going for an IPO that would make them lots of money they started getting rained with lawsuits and PATRIOT Act violations.

Re:"Reason" magazine

[falconwolf]

Newest, mine came in yesterday. Salman Rushdie is on the cover.

Ah, ok so you subscribe? I don't yet though I'm planning on it because I get most issues off the newsstand and subscribing is cheaper. It must be the August issue as I've got the July issue in front of me with the SCJ on the cover, the issue mostly about the Supreme Court. I liked the article "Who Should Reign Supreme", it gave me food for thought. I'm wondering who comes the closest to Jeffersonian thought. I also want to subscribe to "Liberty".

Falcon

Re:"Reason" magazine

[St. Arbirix]

I'd never heard of Liberty before. Their articles are extremely clear but seem a little... simple. It feels like I'm reading freshmen english papers. I really hate to ask who the target audience is. I like it though, and that's coming from a devout athiest. My mother digs Reason, she'd love Liberty.

I Recommend Adelstein

[Master of Transhuman]

follow the Gates Foundation money.

Bill didn't give that Foundation twenty billion for "charity". Follow the investments of that Foundation and see where the influence follows.

It's about time somebody started researching just how big of an asshole Bill Gates really is behind the scenes. Let's not let the fact that he's an asshole up front distract us from the real assholery.

Firebird

[falconwolf]

True.. I haven't had time to look at it much but should have made mention. I don't know offhand how it compares to PostgresQL, though I've little doubt it is ahead of MySQL in most areas. :) Good luck learning it.

Thanks.

Falcon

Re:I don't get it

[penix1]

The difference is you are willing to learn. The GP was not. Frame of mind is everything. The guy was frustrated with it "not working out of the box" so to speak and the PP was pointing them to gentoo?!?!

B

Re:I don't get it

[VolciMaster]

OK. On my machine, it takes the same amount of time, perhaps even a bit quicker than XP. I run a 1.1Ghz Athlon with 768M RAM, and a pair of 80G IDE drives. The boot time is about the same, for me.

Re:I don't get it

[hesiod]

> My parents' last computer wouldn't run Win95, 98, or NT. [...] (It was a 400Mhz K6-II with 256M RAM.)

Somehow, your "evidence" seems suspect, as I used that same configuration (actually, a 450 K6-II) with all three of those OSes (NT WS, not server), plus ME (shudder, a VERY short time), and even windows 2000. So I don't know what you did to the computer, but there's no reason Windows wouldn't work.

So if you are going to call bull on Linux taking longer to boot than XP (it does take longer on my AMD 2600, with Mandrake 10.1), I am going to call TOTAL fucking bull on you claiming a K6 400 won't run Windows. Either you are full of it, just don't know how to install Windows, or you had broken computer parts.

Re:I don't get it

[VolciMaster]

It's too bad you couldn't have been there, then, to see it. And a shame you have to cuss me out because you didn't have the same experience. The parts weren't broken, as they worked fine under Linux, I've installed every version of windows from 3.1 to XP and NT4 (sorry, never played with 3.51) many times, both on personal machines, and doing computer tech work.

God help us

[argoff]

So we have a commodity metal, where the demand has vanished, the global supply is constantly expanding with ever cheaper installments. Which direction is the price going? Only down.

Are you for real? With comments like that, it's no wonder the economy is going to crash. You do realise that is *exactly* what they said in 1971 just after they unlinked the gold from the dollar and right before it went from $35 to $800 per ounce over the next 10 years.

Gold has still only been increasing in circulation by about 1% per year no matter how efficient the mining process is. The dollar has been increasing in circulation by 4-7 percent per year.

So we have a currency, where the demand has vanished, the global supply is constantly expanding with ever cheaper installments. Which direction is the price going? Only down.

You will look awfully foolish as gold goes to well well over $1200 per ounce during the next few years.

capitalism, FOSS, and proprietary software

[falconwolf]

I don't argue that there are indirect ways a company can make money via Open Source software and can, therefore, pay some programmers. But you have to admit that the number of people getting paid to do Open Source software is a very small percentage of the total number of people writing Open Source software. That's where my point lies. I'm not convinced that you can have OSS without proprietary software companies giving the programmers day jobs so they can work on their pet projects at night. Someone else made the point that most software developers code for companies internally. That may be the answer. Are there enough companies out there with such specific requirements that OSS wouldn't work for them and therefore they could employ all of the programmers that don't work for companies like Red Hat? I don't know. I'm just throwing it all out there for discussion.

The way I look at it is that there's a place for both propietary software and for FOSS. Something I've read here and elsewhere is that working on a FOSS project can be helpful, especially for students or those trying to break into programming, where otherwise they couldn't get experience they could with FOSS. Some here have said what they do when they are looking to hire they will Google or otherwise look up a potential applicant to see what projects they've worked on. For someone like me, who's in school and doesn't have any experience this can be helpful in getting a job.

Falcon

Ooh, on CNN just now they're talking about Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor. She is resigning from the Supreme Court.

Re:I don't get it

[hesiod]

Come on man, cuss you out? I used one "bad" word, and it wasn't even calling you a name. You either need thicker skin, or need to quit whining about being a victim; especially when you are not ("boo hoo, he called me a name" -- I didn't).

Re:capitalism, FOSS, and proprietary software

[Pentavirate]

I agree. It's tiring to hear the FOSS zealots go on and on about the elimination of proprietary software in favor of the much more moral OSS. Then love will flow throughout the world and we will all hold hands and sing "We are the world".

I like the OSS movement. I think it's great, and like you said, it provides for opportunities to work on projects when you're starting out or on things you wouldn't otherwise get a chance to do. I just don't get into this "We are good, you are bad" garbage.

PS, with Justice O'Connor retiring, the battle begins. All the distress this announcement is causing just goes to prove that the Supreme Court has usurped WAY too much power. I don't think the founders wanted the choosing of a justice of the court to overshadow just about anything else happening within governemtn.

Re:I don't get it

[VolciMaster]

From working in a manufacturing environment, going to school, working other odd jobs before getting into IT, my skin's plenty thick enough. I just don't need to cuss to get my point across.

"We are good, you are bad" garbage.

[falconwolf]

Unforunately all too often "I'm good, you're bad" is so prevalant.

PS, with Justice O'Connor retiring, the battle begins.

The hard part I think will be if Bush is a uniter or a divider. No matter who he nominates he will get some grief. If he nominates someone too "conservative" then there will be a big outcrying from the "liberals" and filibusters galor, whereas if he chooses someone that leans the other way which I think is highly unlikely, then the right, er "conservatives" will be mad at him. This one though he can survive as he can't run again. The best he can do is nominate someone in the center, I'd like to see a strict constitutionalist who will keep the feds within their bounds.

Falcon

Re: "We are good, you are bad" garbage.

[Pentavirate]

Agreed. What's important isn't what their personal political beliefs are but how they interpret the constitution. They shouldn't invent things in there that aren't. It says what it says. Let legislators make law, not the courts.

Re:I don't get it

[hesiod]

I would like to start by pointing out that you used the word "bull" which, like it or not, is a shortened form of the word "bullshit" -- also a "curse" word. Therefore, you cussed (AKA, "cursed") before I did. Or is it just "fuck" that gets your ire up*?

> I just don't need to cuss to get my point across.

And you are assuming that because I had the audacity to use a word you think will cause a curse*, that I NEED to use it? No, I use it for emphasis. That's what they are there for unless you REALLY think saying certain words causes a curse to be placed on someone (as alluded-to just previously)...

If I would have said "frigging," you may not have said anything about swearing, which would imply that your (dis)interest is in the word itself and not the connotation or context. If you WOULD have been offended by it, go back and read the first sentence of this post.

You don't NEED to ever eat any solid food either, but it says nothing about the character of a person if they choose to or choose not to do it. However, it DOES say something about you if you are willing to label someone as unintelligent merely due to their choice of words*. I am, in fact, somewhat intelligent. I'm no Mensa-member, and I may not be at your level either, but I'm certainly above average. I am just an angry person who has learned to use all the words he knows, not just those that everyone else approve of.

You may ask if I use them in a professional setting? When dealing with customers, no. But the CEO of the place where I work (a hospital, no less) is a real person as well, and I have had conversations in which he would swear once in a while. It doesn't make him less important, less intelligent, or less qualified to do his job (which he does quite well).

* I would like to point out that at certain places in this post I made statements that could be construed as putting words in your mouth, I am not trying to do this: I am merely attempting to expand my point.

judges legislating

[falconwolf]

Agreed. What's important isn't what their personal political beliefs are but how they interpret the constitution. They shouldn't invent things in there that aren't. It says what it says. Let legislators make law, not the courts.

While judges shouldn't "legislate" they should determine if a law is constitutional, ie the courts are the third leg of the stool making it stable.

Falcon

Re:judges legislating

[Pentavirate]

While judges shouldn't "legislate" they should determine if a law is constitutional, ie the courts are the third leg of the stool making it stable.

Question then: What checks and balances are in place in the constitution that protect us from a court that is running amuck? Congress legislates but the president has the veto which the congress can overturn. The president enforces the laws that congress passes but can't create laws. The courts make sure that the law is constitutional. What check do we have in place for judges that are already appointed and legislate from the bench?

Re:judges legislating

[falconwolf]

Question then: What checks and balances are in place in the constitution that protect us from a court that is running amuck? Congress legislates but the president has the veto which the congress can overturn. The president enforces the laws that congress passes but can't create laws. The courts make sure that the law is constitutional. What check do we have in place for judges that are already appointed and legislate from the bench?

There are three legs, executive, legislative, and judical so with a court that's "running amok" there are the other two legs. If it's a lower court ruling the executive branch can escalate it, bring it to the appeals level, then to the Supreme Court. Or congress can pass and the president sign a law. If that doesn't work then there is the ability to amend the constitution. The final measure is revolution.

The courts themselves don't have the ability to enforce decisions, it takes the executive branch to enforce rulings. Which brings up something pres Andrew Jackson said and did. He wanted to remove the Cherokee from their homeland in the Appalachians to reservations in what is now Oklahoma. The Cherokees were against this as was congress so congress sued him in the SC. The SC ruled against him, yet he went and said he was the commander in chief and he would do what he wanted. He said if they want to stop him they would have to get their own forces to stop him. He eventually had his way and forced the Cherokee westward and thousands of Cherokees died on the Trail of Tears.

Falcon

Note
Originally it was Georgia that wanted the Cherokee removed in the early 1800s. In 1802 when Georgia, the last of the colonies to join the union, joined they thought the Cherokee would be driven out. It waa in 1829 when gold was discovered on Cherokee land in northern Georgia when Jackson aggressively implemented a broad policy of extinguishing Indian land titles in affected states and relocating the Indian population.

Trolls feed each other? Who knew?

[Anonymous Coward]

Unix and Linux share no source, are implemented differently, and your trolls would be more effective if you could write a clear sentence. Alas...

Re:I don't get it

[NaruVonWilkins]

Wouldn't it be nice if we could find parts we knew not to be child-labor manufactured?

Re:Trolls feed each other? Who knew?

[Halvy]

Unix and Linux share no source,

WOW, YOU'RE SMART!! (L)inux (I)s (N)not (U)ni(X)!!

Your argument would be great, but you're arguing with yourself because I never said they were exactly *the same* (you dumbo)

are implemented differently,

Excuse me, there are more Linux servers than pure Unix (whatever that is-- since there isn't any more pure Unix).

and your trolls would be more effective if you could write a clear sentence.

u mustb preddy boared critikueing *innerNut* gramma!!

Alas...

yes, Mr. Coward, alas! amazing!!You are about the only one I ever heard of that thinks linux was not an offshoot of unix in any way shape or form!!

you are either dilutional or a kike, probably both!! LOL!!

Re:I don't get it

[Limburgher]

I just fixed that on my mother-in-law's machine. It was doing exactly what you describe, but only under her non-root account, and the media-install didn't work under non-root. So, I bumped her up to root, went through the media-install/reboot cycle 3 times, and then it stopped, so I bumped her back to non-root, and it has ben fine since.

And yet she still won't switch to OO.org. (sigh)