Hot Coffee Cooling Off

The storm of media and cynicism that was "Hot Coffee" is, thankfully, coming to an end. To wrap things up, reactions were mixed to the re-rating of GTA. Some thought it too much, some too little too late. With the removal of the M rating, ESRB president Patricia Vance considers the matter closed. Even those in the industry itself seem glad that it's over, though the folks quoted for the 1up story seem cynical about the whole thing. "[Rockstar] TOTALLY screwed the modding community, as far as I am concerned. Because they could have just removed the content. They tried to get cute and leave it in. In my experience that sort of thing is always deliberate. Anyway, the point is that most game developers are recalcitrant and immature jerks. When mom tells us we can't do something, we're sure as hell going to do it. If you get my meaning. I think 'mom' in this case was the ESRB." As a sidenote, stock in Take-Two Entertainment dropped by almost five percent at close of market today, on the news that even Gamestop is dumping the now AO-rated GTA title.

Comments

Tshirt Already?

[ack154]

And as a keepsake for all of the madness... be sure to pick up your very own Hot Coffee t-shirt from ThinkGeek!

As soon as they're actually in stock, that is.

Re:Tshirt Already?

[Anonymous Coward]

It was just Rockstar's PR-stunt-attempt ("omg, look what an independent group of developers not at all affiliated with us, no, no, no really not, has found out lol! really, it is not us who published this to get media- and slashdot-coverage!") gone wrong.

Newbies.

Re:Tshirt Already?

[jtshaw]

Thinkgeek also sells USB powered coffee mug sized heat plates to make sure you Hot Coffee stays good and hot for as long as you want it to.

Re:Tshirt Already?

[imuffin]

And, in the true spirit of Slashdot (Thinkgeek and Slashdot being owned by the same), they misspell the work mourn in the shirt's description.

---
watch funny commercials

Re:Tshirt Already?

[RockModeNick]

A product that probably depletes your batter slightly slower, the USB powered glitter lava lamp, is sold at Target for a few dollers.

Re:Tshirt Already?

[BaudKarma]

I'd just like to state that I find it highly suspicious that the first post in this thread is an ad for a Thinkgeek product. And that it's modded up to +5.

Re:Tshirt Already?

[themishkin]

Hahaha, check out Maddox's article on this whole thing! Always hilarious... http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=ti cket_to_hell

Re:Tshirt Already?

[justin12345]

"I'd just like to state that I find it highly suspicious that the first post in this thread is an ad for a Thinkgeek product. And that it's modded up to +5."

What are you suspicious of, that the parent company of /. and TG might want to sell TG shirts to /.ers?

Re:Tshirt Already?

[Ira_Gaines]

Thinkgeek also sells USB powered coffee mug sized heat plates to make sure you Hot Coffee stays good and hot for as long as you want it to. This is important when you are busy killing hookers and rival gangsters. Do you think Carl Johnson uses Windows or a Mac?

Re:Tshirt Already?

[MindStalker]

Thank you. Exactly what I've been thinking the whole time and not been able to put in such sarcastic words!.

Someone mod this up!

Re:Tshirt Already?

[ryanov]

Where?

Re:Tshirt Already?

[Elminst]

and even more in the spirit of ./; you misspell "word" (work) while complaining about their spelling errors.
Meta meta spelling nazi?

Re:Tshirt Already?

[Anonymous Coward]

Meta meta spelling nazi?

Numa numa spelling communist?

Re:Tshirt Already?

[mpontes]

Dotslash? (Meta Meta Meta spelling Nazi).

Re:Tshirt Already?

[Anonymous Coward]

Its a good thing they have these

Re:Tshirt Already?

[Anonymous Coward]

Even allowing the start of a sentence with "And..." you forgot to capitalise it.

Grammar meta-meta-spelling Nazi?

It's about time!

[ChibiLZ]

I for one am very glad that this whole debacle is over. I think it's somewhat ridiculous that people are angry at Rockstar. AFAIK, GTA:SA is rated M for violence and sexual content. Why must it be AO now? This certainly wasn't hardcore porno, it was not even as bad as what you see on cable late at night.

And to think that GameStop is not going to sell the game anymore? Regardless, it's well out of the spotlight now, but the game they stop selling today is the game that they were hyping the hell out of for pre-orders 1 year ago. I don't care what the ESRB rating is, nothing has changed.

I certainly don't think kids should buy this game, regardless of the sex, they shouldn't be exposed to that kind of violent content. However, it's now a pain in the ass for me if I want to buy a copy. It seems I can no longer go into my local videogame store and pick it up, I'll have to order it online and wait. I wonder if it will arrive in a plain brown envelope. Wouldn't want the neighbors or mailman to know I'm getting such perverted things in the mail.

Re:It's about time!

[Araxen]

EB Games is still going to carry the game. They have only taken it off the self for about a week to make sure the boxes say AO on them. EB will make a killing now if they are the only brick and mortar place selling it.

Re:It's about time!

[timeOday]

I think it's somewhat ridiculous that people are angry at Rockstar. AFAIK, GTA:SA is rated M for violence and sexual content. Why must it be AO now?

When you decieve somebody, their reaction when the truth comes out is greater than if you had told them the same thing upfront.

What annoys people about this is that Rockstar decieved both the industry and the public about the content of the game. So long as this occurs, consumers can't know what they're buying. OK, so you don't mind. But the point is people should have the information up front to make their own choice.

Re:It's about time!

[Radish03]

What I find the funniest about this is that to access the scenes, you need to go online and download a mod. And we all know the internet is entirely cotton candy and butterflies. If a kid has internet access and can get this mod, he sure as hell can access much worse than an animated blowjob with a simple google search.

Re:It's about time!

[ipfwadm]

What annoys people about this is that Rockstar decieved both the industry and the public about the content of the game. So long as this occurs, consumers can't know what they're buying.

No, Rockstar didn't deceive anyone. When you went out and bought the game, there was no possible way that you were going to get exposed to this "sex scene" without knowingly going out of your way to enable it. No possible way. Therefore, the sex scene was not part of the "content of the game", and therefore Rockstar did not deceive anyone about the content of the game.

People's reaction to this is "greater than if you had told them the same thing upfront" because they don't understand what it's all about. They hear that there's a sex scene in the game and they pull out their pitchforks and torches. They probably think this is actually a scene you'd come across during normal gameplay, and therefore they do feel deceived.

Re:It's about time!

[BewireNomali]

I agree, and will try and take it further.

Isn't this game a bit past its prime already as a retail commodity?

Like all things retail, the youngest consumer tends to the be the impulse buyer, which in this case means that the audience most affected by this ratings change would have purchased their game already.

<conspiracy theory> It could be interesting to see if there's a spike in the sales pattern after this *free publicity* scandal involving the ESRB and Rockstar. If the target audience in general for games is the adult gamer, this could be the kind of press to motivate the adult buyer into making a purchase if he hasn't done so. </conspiracy theory>

I feel like Rockstar walks away unscathed in this whole deal. They just stand to make more cash from the free press.

Re:It's about time!

[Anonymous Coward]

Please show me a late night cable show that has a fully naked chick suck some guy's dick. I'm quite serious, as this intrigues me.

Re:It's about time!

[Anonymous Coward]

"I feel like Rockstar walks away unscathed in this whole deal"

You're joking right? A 5% drop in stock price in a single day... I would hardly call that unscathed

Re:It's about time!

[Rasta Prefect]

People's reaction to this is "greater than if you had told them the same thing upfront" because they don't understand what it's all about. They hear that there's a sex scene in the game and they pull out their pitchforks and torches. They probably think this is actually a scene you'd come across during normal gameplay, and therefore they do feel deceived.

Or, Rockstar disabled the content but left it there knowing that somebody was eventually going to find it - but not until after they'd been rated.

Re:It's about time!

[Anonymous Coward]

> It could be interesting to see if there's a spike in the sales pattern after this *free publicity* scandal involving the ESRB and Rockstar. If the target audience in general for games is the adult gamer, this could be the kind of press to motivate the adult buyer into making a purchase if he hasn't done so.

>I feel like Rockstar walks away unscathed in this whole deal. They just stand to make more cash from the free press.

I don't feel so bad for getting it off p2p2, personally...

Re:It's about time!

[ipfwadm]

Or, Rockstar disabled the content but left it there knowing that somebody was eventually going to find it - but not until after they'd been rated.

Possibly... But my opinion then is "who cares?" If it's not part of the normal gameplay; if someone has to go out and look for a hack that will enable whatever it is they're looking for, then what's the big deal? No one is stumbling upon this. No one is being exposed to anything against their will.

And at the same time, I'd be willing to bet that there are a lot of games out there that have similarly-locked features. It just happens that GTA's was discovered.

Re:It's about time!

[BewireNomali]

Third quarter earnings would probably be a better indicant, as well as comparable sales of the game from 2nd to 3rd quarter. It's just too soon to tell.

Re:It's about time!

[ajservo]

Considering that EB's under a pending purchase with Gamestop soon, I wouldn't count them on stocking the title too much longer.

Re:It's about time!

[Skye16]

This certainly wasn't hardcore porno, it was not even as bad as what you see on cable late at night.

No shit! I was channel surfing last night around midnight when I zipped past Sci-Fi and Tripping the Rift. There was a clown woman on her knees in front of a clown man - she was either examining his clown zipper, or giving him a blowjob - I would imagine it was the latter. I was kind of surprised to see it.

The funny thing is, I don't have a problem with watching porn. But I felt dirty watching that show. There's something about CG sex that gives me the jibblies.

Re:It's about time!

[PsiPsiStar]

You need to use a patch to see the scene.

It would be easier to watch porn using my web browser than it would be using this game.

Re:It's about time!

[krbvroc1]

I completely agree with you. The hoopla is so rediculous. Its almost someone giving you a formula for isolating the printed words in the latest Harry Potter book to form a short porn story. Take the 6th word, followed by 12th word, followed by 24th word, etc.

The content was not accessible without a mod. Furthermore, having seen the content, its not all that indecent especially for a 17 year old.

I'm trying to undertand where all this save the children rhetoric is coming from and my conclusion is that it makes for an easy target. One tangential concern I've encountered is that rated M (17+) games are widely sold to minors. The statistics I say came from one Parents Television Council so they are probably misleading and distorted if their reporting on other the facts in the case are a barometer. They claim more than 70 percent of teenagers, 'according to a Gallop Poll', have played a Grand Theft Auto game. I can't find the poll results but there is a lot of ways to mislead with that statistic.

Another 'statistic' from the groups behind the media frenzy:
'According to research by the National Institute on Media and the Family, games rated M, which means they are appropriate only for people aged 17 or older, are relatively easy for teenagers and even children as young as age 7 to obtain. In the National Institute's recent study, 50 percent of boys between the ages of 7 and 14 successfully purchased M-rated video games, and an astonishing 87 percent of boys play M-rated games. Furthermore, nearly a quarter of retailers in the study don't even understand the ratings they are supposed to enforce, and only half of the stores train employees in the use of the ratings.'

Re:It's about time!

[EddieBurkett]

Considering that EB's under a pending purchase with Gamestop soon, I wouldn't count them on stocking the title too much longer.

Right... you figure by the time the reworked GTA is ready (sans Hot Coffee content), the merger will be complete, and your Gamestop/EB Games stores can all sell GTA to their heart's content. But for now, Gamestop can claim the moral high road, saying they stood up against those evil perverted developers, while their buddies over at EB Games are raking in the money. (or however much money there is to be raked in given that this game has been out for so long...) If Gamestop was really concerned about this, surely they could pressure EB Games not to sell it as well.

Although one has to wonder, once the reworked version is released, will Gamestop still sell the old previously used versions? I would think that there might be a bit of an aftermarket for that stuff, now that is both contraband and limited in number.

Re:It's about time!

[rhsanborn]

I think people's gripe is that Rockstar did this to deliberately circumvent the rating system. I.E. they wanted people to find this little hack, maybe someone even said something in passing to someone else, who told his friend's brother's neighbor's dog to write a little script to unlock the content.

My gripe is that Rockstar initially came out saying this was all lies and that Hot Coffee added content to the game. Why couldn't they just walk out and say, "Yeah, they found it."

The lack of any and all corporate, or general integrity irritates me to no end.

Re:It's about time!

[Anonymous Coward]

"I was kind of surprised to see it."

I take this to mean you've never watched Tripping the Rift before. ;)

Yes, the spaceship is complete with a Masturbatorium and a sex slave. What you saw was the dark lord's orgy room.

Re:It's about time!

[colinferm]

It's nice to hear a little bit of common sense.

Where this is coming from is that this country is in the same place, culturally, as we were with comic books in the 50's. At the time, all the great crime and horror comics were being published by one house (EC) and politicians - and one doctor who's name escapes me - screamed about how terrible this was for kids and how the nation was going to be full of little murderers if something wasn't done. There were congressional hearings, banner headlines, all the same as we're seeing right now for video games.

In response, the comics industry put together the "voluntary" Comics Code Of America which most DC and Marvel books carried into the mid-90's that included various draconian "guidelines" forbidding , for instance, a comic to show anything bad happening to a police officer.

The sad fact was that most of these books were picked up at news stands by bank clerks, butchers, and other adults who wanted something entertaining to read on their way to work and not so much by children. What the comics code did was essentially dumb down comics to the point that adults stopped reading them through out the 50's, 60's, and early 70's and basically put EC out of business since news stands wouldn't carry comics that didn't have the Comics Code stamp on their covers.

It's too bad to see that the same thing is happening today with video games. I mean, I read that the median - median, average - age of video gamers is 27. That said, if we can have movies - and thankfully, comic books again - for adults, why not video games also? The box says 17+, so is it Rockstar's fault if parents are buying nine year old little Johnny a game that includes violence and now sex? The common sense answer, as you've said, is no.

Anyway, just some history to go with it.

Re:It's about time!

[justin12345]

I don't think that there is any plan to remove the content, just up the rating.

Removing the content would probably be expensive, as they would have to reissue the DVD image and republish it. All they have to do now that it has a higher rating is change the packaging to say AO.

They could even just slap a sticker on the already printed boxes.

Re:It's about time!

[Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki]

"and one doctor who's name escapes me"

Fredric Wertham. He did convert (if that's the right word) before his death, though. He saw that he wasn't right in all cases.

Re:It's about time!

[Anonymous Coward]

That's pure speculation.

Re:It's about time!

[bleckywelcky]

A sticker would be great, that way the younger kids can still buy it if they pull the sticker off. Go to Walmart, and the old mexican at the register that can't speak english won't know the difference.

Re:It's about time!

[bleckywelcky]

If a kid has internet access and can get this mod, he sure as hell can access much worse

Much worse? ... or much better? :)

Re:It's about time!

[shotgunefx]

This is no more decieving than splicing a minute of porno into a PG-13 movie you bought.

The game is for 17+. That's people who are within 12 months of being able to do everything in the world but drink and be president. That includes fucking, sucking and drinking coffee :)
(Most 17yr olds probably have done all of the above.)

If the qualm is with kids, do your friggin job and don't buy them mature stuff. If your kid can get the patch online, he can see a junkie fellating a horse. Simulated dickless sex is the least of your worries.

I'd like to see the parent that would be tilted by that scence.
"Hmmm, screwing and stabbing hookers and over the top violence and murder is one thing, but simulated sex!, I'm sorry Billy, but the answer is no."

There's lots of sexual content in the game. It's not a sex scene hidden in Lemmings or something. It doesn't change the appropriateness or lack thereof at all.

Re:It's about time!

[justin12345]

I was actually thinking of a sticker under the shrink wrap, but it hardly matters...

Retailers are not supposed to sell M or AO games to kids. The switch to AO is largely symbolic. In practical terms the only thing it will effect is which retailers will carry the game. Wal*mart for instance will not. Neither will a number of other retailers, including Game Stop (as pointed out above).

Re:It's about time!

[renderhead]

They probably think this is actually a scene you'd come across during normal gameplay, and therefore they do feel deceived.

Not necessarily. In the case of GTA:SA, the whole issue may seem to be splitting hairs. The entire game already revolves around violence and sex anyway, right? But the parent groups may be concerned with the precendent of the thing.

Suppose a year from now, parents are mystified that their 13 year old sons want to own some game called "Happy Bunny and the Carnival Mystery" (Rated "E" for Everyone). but how can they object? All of the game's content has been reviewed and approved by the ERSB and multiple gaming publications as being suitable for kids.

Then it turns out that a code, widely available on the web but largely unknown outside of gaming circles, unlocks the "freak show" mode, granting access to rooms full of violent and pornographic images. Some developer put it in as a joke, with the rationale that none of the kids will ever see it because it requires them to 'knowingly go out of their way to enable it.'

Again, GTA is an odd place to set the precedent because most conscientious parents wouldn't allow it in their houses in the first place, but no parent likes the idea that a gaming company might, willfully or accidentally, help their child smuggle obscene material through their door under the guise of a milder game.

Rockstar is being made into an example for all game companies to discourage the insertion of "easter eggs" that might change the rating of the game were they enabled by default.

Re:It's about time!

[HTH NE1]

I find it interesting that Best Buy is pulling it from their shelves. The copy I purchased post-Hot Coffee, pre-rerating, and still shrinkwrapped has the price tag affixed atop the rating on the front of the package.

Sure, the rating on the back is still there, but there will be those that buy it without looking at the back, and that those who won't check the back wouldn't have noticed it on the front either (i.e. you have to be looking for it to care to notice it).

But it does seem a bit hypocritical to object to selling AO-rated games but will hide the M-rated games' rating with their price tag.

I oppose the rerating, but I also wish they'd kept it on the shelves relabeled as AO so that it would be there to encourage parents to pay attention to the ESRB ratings! Then maybe they'll take the responsibility for exposing their pre-17-year-olds to the M-games content and only be able to be upset about their 17-year-olds being exposed to Hot Coffee.

Re:It's about time!

[Caiwyn]

No, Rockstar didn't deceive anyone. When you went out and bought the game, there was no possible way that you were going to get exposed to this "sex scene" without knowingly going out of your way to enable it. No possible way. Therefore, the sex scene was not part of the "content of the game", and therefore Rockstar did not deceive anyone about the content of the game.

Bullshit. The content is on the disc, and that makes it part of the package that Rockstar sells. It's content that was made by Rockstar and included in the game, regardless of whether it has to be unlocked by a third party. You're going to tell me that the company that regularly gets attacked for the content of their games had the purest of intentions in leaving the minigame on the disc? At best, they were negligent. At worst, they were downright malicious.

You don't need a mod to enable the content; all you need is a savegame file with the minigame unlocked. Right now, that means downloading an edited savegame file or editing your own, but considering that Rockstar wasn't forthcoming about the content of the disc, do you really trust them not to have thrown in a way to unlock the game without editing the savegame file? There could be an as-yet undiscovered cheat code, or any number of other possibilities. Rockstar sure as hell isn't going to be up front about that now.

But even if you give them the benefit of the doubt, they screwed up royally, and deserve to have the game re-rated. And they deserve a lot more scrutiny by the ESRB in the future, for pulling this little stunt. As the grandparent poster said, the minigame doesn't bother me nearly as much as Rockstar's willingness to hide it on the disc as a surprise for unwitting parents later on down the line. Everyone (including myself) who defended Rockstar in the past by pointing to the ratings system has had their argument shot down by none other than Rockstar themselves.

Re:It's about time!

[Anonymous Coward]

modders changed the original version of the game. They could have created a similar mini-game themselves, or some other adult content. The fact is, the rating was appropriate for the game as is. No deception took place.

Re:It's about time!

[bleckywelcky]

You know what's funny? Go to the ESRB site and do an advanced search to find all the games rated AO. There are only 19 titles that come up, and of those there are only really 2 legitimate "games":

GTA:SA
Leisure Suit Larry: Magna Cum Laude Uncut and Uncensored

Most of the rest are by two publishers named "Peach Princess" and "MacDaddy Entertainment". And their titles include such greats as:

Water Closet: The Forbidden Chamber
X-Change
All Nude Glamour
Cyber Photographer

My point? Gimme a break, the only titles any normal person would ever consider spending money on are GTA and LSL. The rest of the crap in this AO category is off the deep end. GTA may be rough around the edges and not the morally brightest game around, but it doesn't deserve to be cast away with the rest of these freaks.

Re:It's about time!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes they did.

They said the hot coffee mod included the sex scene and that it wasn't in the original game.

This was the lie they were caught out in. Hot Coffee just enabled something they had put in..

As the gp said, if they'd just said in the first place "we wrote it but decided it was not suitable so disabled it" then there wouldn't be half the fuss there is now.

Re:It's about time!

[zoney_ie]

Hey, the problem does exist, and isn't even just one of selling to those underage for the title.

Here in my city in Ireland, one of the major toy stores (which sells computer games) stocked GTA:SA. Well, they didn't sell to those underage - they didn't have to. The kids' parents were buying it for them.

And it gets worse. The counter assistents were under orders to tell the parents just how graphic the game was (in language, violence, etc.) without pulling the punches. Well, the parents were taken aback and shocked apparently, but most bought it all the same, saying "ah sure, all his friends will have it".

People aren't interested in rearing kids properly anymore. They probably shouldn't have kids, and only do so out of selfishness (wanting to hear the pitter-patter of feet, etc., etc.).

Kids not being reared properly is the single reason our society will continue in its decadent downward spiral.

----

On a more related note, I do find it strange that in the US, mere sex scenes bring the game up to an 18s rating, while the graphic violence, gritty theme, and appalling language do not.

Re:It's about time!

[DrLang21]

Suppose a year from now, parents are mystified that their 13 year old sons want to own some game called "Happy Bunny and the Carnival Mystery" (Rated "E" for Everyone). but how can they object? All of the game's content has been reviewed and approved by the ERSB and multiple gaming publications as being suitable for kids.

Then it turns out that a code, widely available on the web but largely unknown outside of gaming circles, unlocks the "freak show" mode, granting access to rooms full of violent and pornographic images. Some developer put it in as a joke, with the rationale that none of the kids will ever see it because it requires them to 'knowingly go out of their way to enable it.'

Simple. I just wouldn't let my kid get anymore games from that company. I would feel deceived. I would also feel that in no way should legal action be taken. And then I would probly go play with the freak show for my own entertainment.

Re:It's about time!

[Anonymous Coward]

When you decieve somebody, their reaction when the truth comes out is greater than if you had told them the same thing upfront.

Especially if it is about sex.

Hillary should have known not to be so vociferous over this now after she was so silent about that then.

Re:It's about time!

[Breakfast Pants]

"I read that the median - median, average - age of..."

Well which is it, median, median, or average?

Re:It's about time!

[Artemis]

The game is for 17+. That's people who are within 12 months of being able to do everything in the world but drink and be president. That includes fucking, sucking and drinking coffee

Actually, you need to be 35 years of age to be president, at least in the United States where the ESRB rules. You also need to be a natural-born US citizen and a resident of the United States for the past 14 years.

Re:It's about time!

[mbelly]

Yeah, I kinda hate it, but that seems true. I hadn't bought GTA:SA yet, but was planning to, being a fan of GTA since the first game. Now that this has come out, I fear going to EB or the like to buy it, because I'm sure somebody will think I am buying it for the sex scene.

I am going to side with all the comments about it being on the parent's concience. The game shipped without the content unlocked, therefore in all intents and purposes, it was not there. If the 'minor' goes online and downloads this mod, shame on the parent for not screening the child's internet usage.

Re:It's about time!

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to be a jerk or a grammar nazi (my grammar sucks) but I'd like to point out that ridiculous is spelled R-I-D-I-C-U-L-O-U-S. Why do some many folks spell it rediculous? Perhaps that's the way Canada and the UK spells it.

Other than that good post

Re:It's about time!

[HTH NE1]

Thanks for the idea. I think I'll go put out a mod for Barbie's Horse Adventures: Wild Horse Rescue now! According to the site (which requires cookies), it should get pulled from shelves just for being so very bad.

Re:It's about time!

[Elminst]

"Its almost someone giving you a formula for isolating the printed words in the latest Harry Potter book to form a short porn story."

Oh hell, it's WAY easier than that...
Just change every instance of the word "wand" to "wang". One little letter makes the whole series perverse.

There's post on bash.org about it, if i recall.... Yup.
http://bash.org/?111338

Re:It's about time!

[Fred Ferrigno]

Or, Rockstar disabled the content but left it there knowing that somebody was eventually going to find it - but not until after they'd been rated.

I view it as analogous to an easter egg on a DVD movie. Except for this easter egg, you have to know what you're looking for, use external hardware to get it, and spend several hours trying to find it. But other than that, an easter egg.

All DVDs nowadays come with a notice saying "DVD extras and commentary unrated" -- only the movie, the main content, the stuff you really paid to see, is rated. If you have to hit a dozen buttons to access the secret menu of hidden sex scenes cut from the movie, you probably know what you're in for. Nobody is going to protect you from what you worked so hard to find.

Now, if they would only add the video game version of "extras unrated", we'd be fine. People know (or should know) what GTA is when they buy it; is there really some uproar among consumers about this? You know, that game where you go around stealing cars, beating up hookers, and killing cops -- why, it has sex in it! It was fine for little Jimmy before, but not now! You must take it off the shelves and burn it!

Re:It's about time!

[EddieBurkett]

I don't think that there is any plan to remove the content, just up the rating.

From this: "Rockstar Games has ceased manufacturing of the current version of the title and will begin working on a version of the game with enhanced security to prevent the "hot coffee" modifications. This version will retain the original ESRB M-rating and is expected to be available during the Company's fourth fiscal quarter. Rockstar Games will be providing AO labels for retailers who wish to continue to sell the current version of the title." So maybe the won't remove the content altogether, although given what's transpired, I can't think of any stronger "enhanced security".

Re:It's about time!

[ajservo]

It pains me to think that the possibility of recompiling the game minus the hot coffee code could make it unstable.

Then again, I already own the game, so it doesn't really affect me if they do.

That and I know absolutely nothing about coding, so my entire point could be moot.

Re:It's about time!

[cowscows]

Exactly. Anyone comfortable enough with the internet to be able to research the steps necessary to accomplish this modification will have already seen way "worse" stuff online. Porn is one of the motors that makes the internet go. Any kid who's curious enough to see sex in GTA will have already seen it on the web.

Re:It's about time!

[honkycat]

Uh, nice of you to correct his correct statement, but perhaps you would like to re-read his statement and ask yourself whether you understood it the first time through. :-)

Re:It's about time!

[Fred Ferrigno]

See my other post.

Easter eggs on that other censored-to-all-hell medium (movies) aren't rated at all. DVDs explicitly carry a label saying something to the effect that "DVD extras and director's commentary unrated". Why can't video games carry a similar disclaimer?

There's no way a game producer can 100% guarantee some programmer didn't stick in a pratical joke in the form of a naked woman on the back side of a panel somewhere. There's no way a game producer can even 1% guarantee that people won't release a naked patch or something similar. (See Lara Croft, The Sims, others.) Basically, if your child is travelling the net unsupervised looking for a naked patch, chances are he could find the real stuff just as easily.

I just see this as a threat to the modding community. How do they handle games like HL that are designed to be modded? Should every mod be ESRB certified, too?

Re:It's about time!

[Saeul]

I for one am very glad that this whole debacle is over. I think it's somewhat ridiculous that people are angry at Rockstar. AFAIK, GTA:SA is rated M for violence and sexual content. Why must it be AO now? This certainly wasn't hardcore porno, it was not even as bad as what you see on cable late at night.

The reason for the uproar is what Senator Hillary Clinton said. The ESRB rating is self-regulation by the industry so that they don't get regulated by the government. When you game the system like Rockstar did, you abuse the trust of the public. It would be roughly the equivalent of a movie studio showing one version of a movie to the MPAA for rating purposes and then printing a different version for distribution.

The game company is REQUIRED to reveal content that could affect the rating as part of the submission process. Rockstar failed to do that. The uproar actually isn't that bad compared to what it could have been. They KNOW that the major retailers won't distribute "AO" or unrated SKUs. The producers winked and nodded at putting it in OR they didn't do their job in monitoring the submission to the ESRB.

All of the /. handwringing over this is because we equate freedom with license and we have a distaste for negative consequences, thinking they somehow are an evil plot on the part of someone to make our lives miserable. What happened is what should happen when you abuse the trust of the public.

Re:It's about time!

[Zenithal]

Sorry about the venom here, but I hate this reaction. Rockstar didn't deceive anyone about the content of the game. There is absolutely, positively no legitimate 1st party mechanism through which this content can be unlocked.

Hell, almost certainly the censor flag was added and the content blocked because the ESRB rejected it to begin with. What we're basically saying to game designers now is that they have to go through the game data of every game and make sure that nothing in INACTIVE data and code could possibly be construed as adult. That's just crazy. Think about what this could do to the ESRB content rating process. Are they they going to start requiring access to every individual piece of data on the disc and the associated tools to easily view said data regardless of its disposition in the game?

What blows me away even more is modding community. Good lord. The gall it takes to blame Rockstar just blows me away here. I wouldn't have blamed them either, but to suggest that Rockstar did something inappropriate or tried to set them up to do something inappropriate is f-ing ridiculous.

Re:It's about time!

[Kyosuke77]

I remember in Giants: Citizen Kabuto, the game could be hacked to make one of the characters, Delphi, topless. She was apparently topless in the original release but they put a bikini top on her for the North American version. Quaintly, the file you deleted to make the change was named 'arpfix' (American Rating Panel?).

Re:It's about time!

[pnice]

I'd be willing to bet that there are a lot of games out there that have similarly-locked features.

Like the one in Rings of Power for the Sega Genesis. To see a topless chick in the game hold down the DOWN, RIGHT, START, A, B, & C buttons on controller 2 and restart the Genesis. I remember reading this is a game mag back in the day and was able to find it searching on google.

http://www.classicgaming.com/thedump/genesis/secre ts.htm

Re:It's about time!

[SenorChuck]

Tell me again how many movies the MPAA has given an R rating (17 and under requires adult accompaniment) in which sex is the central theme?

Pot, this is kettle calling. You're black.

Re:It's about time!

[Shano]

At least one of those (X-Change) is a port of a Japanese hentai game. I think Water Closet is as well. Not that I've played them, but I find the SA hentai reviews most amusing.

Sick and perverted they may be, but they're games nonetheless. The others are probably vaguely interactive photo galleries.

In any case, the AO rating is generally given to rather specialist porn. I don't have much interest in GTA, but hardcore porn it is not.

Did any of these people ever play Serpent Isle (which featured consensual sex between 48 pixel high sprites)?

Re:It's about time!

[Anonymous Coward]

ok, go spend 2 years making a game on the scale of GTA.

Send it off for rating and they tell you that it will be given a certain Rating unless you remove this one part of the game, you only have a month to remove it but the rest of the game is done.

now if you don't get this game out you might aswell close the doors on your company cause it will bankrupt you. what will you do? Disable the one thing or go out of buisness and have to pay back all thoughs loans totalling over 10 million?

no company can spend 2 years of creation to have the game get delayed (look at what happened to Tomb Raider) on the scale that GTA would of been for them to completly remove the code. Also, you said it yourself, you HAVE to go and get a save game file that has been modified, well please tell me how to stick my PS2 memory card into the computer so I can simply download it or how I can download the save file with my GTA disc or sony issued disc...what's that? you say I can't? That I have to go out and buy a THIRD PARTY product in order to get that save file? just like it takes a THIRD PARTY product in order to unlock it? kind of negats your whole point, since there is no way to get to the locked content without getting another product (which are never endorsed by sony) to unlock it. It doesn't matter if rockstar put it in the game or not, it took other people to unlock it and modify the code in order for it to become unlocked, the ESRB rated the game for what you saw if you just played the game itself not if you used cheats to unlock something if their going to start rating things that might be able to be unlocked through third party hacking then they might aswell throw out the E rating, cause I have seen codes for Smackdown that allow you to have nude characters, they aren't part of the games programing at all but people managed to hack the codes, same for some Resident evil games, people hacked codes to allow one of the characters to be nude through the game (I think it was Jill in RE3) should the ESRB go back and re-rate these games aswell? since you know third partys made them have nude skins they should be rated AO now, also why doesn't Leasuire suit larry: Magna cum laud get re-rated? within 3 days of the games release Action Replay Max (the same people that did the sex code for GTA: SA) had codes that removed the censor bars from the sex scenes in that game, shouldn't it be pulled off the shelves and re-rated as AO? since a THIRD PARTY broke the code?

Now if there is a button code to unlock it (which is very doubtfull) then that would be a whole nother story.

Re:It's about time!

[Anonymous Luddite]

>> watch porn using my web browser

You can do that?!?

This could change the whole rating of the internet to AO, better keep it quiet.

Re:It's about time!

[quantaman]

Suppose a year from now, parents are mystified that their 13 year old sons want to own some game called "Happy Bunny and the Carnival Mystery" (Rated "E" for Everyone). but how can they object? All of the game's content has been reviewed and approved by the ERSB and multiple gaming publications as being suitable for kids.

Then it turns out that a code, widely available on the web but largely unknown outside of gaming circles, unlocks the "freak show" mode, granting access to rooms full of violent and pornographic images. Some developer put it in as a joke, with the rationale that none of the kids will ever see it because it requires them to 'knowingly go out of their way to enable it.'

Again, GTA is an odd place to set the precedent because most conscientious parents wouldn't allow it in their houses in the first place, but no parent likes the idea that a gaming company might, willfully or accidentally, help their child smuggle obscene material through their door under the guise of a milder game.

Rockstar is being made into an example for all game companies to discourage the insertion of "easter eggs" that might change the rating of the game were they enabled by default.

The obscene content isn't the game, it's the code, you go in to the net looking for porn and violent images you're going to find it.

You can modify ANYTHING to have pornographic and violent content, the child didn't get the conent from the game, they downloaded it from the net.

Re:It's about time!

[mpontes]

I can't belive that! When I downloaded Firefox I didn't know their browser would enable me to see Adults Only content!
Someone should force Mozilla Foundation to put up a AO warning near Firefox's download page.

For all the unfunny /.ers out there: I'm being sarcastic.

Re:It's about time!

[thesandtiger]

Any game that is moddable can be modified in this way then, and therefore all game companies need to make it impossible for users to create and then distribute "disturbing" (whatever your definition of it is) content with the game - if we follow your logic. Which I don't, but I understand the attraction of it.

Rockstar made a mini-game and then didn't remove all of it from their game, but they didn't make it accessable by "normal" play (or ANY play), either. It requires a modification of the software, not just some code that needs to be entered at a pause point. ANY game that is moddable can be modified into providing content that people will be up in arms to.

Oh noes, someone made a mod that turns the monsters in Doom 3 into children, and all the weapons into sex toys! Clearly, Doom 3 needs to be made Adults Only!

Oh noes, someone made some skins for The Sims that make them nude, and Little Jimmy has now got a house full of naked polyamorous lesbians running around! Clearly, The Sims needs to be made Adults Only!

Oh noes, someone made skins for Morrowind that makes every NPC in the game into an extremely well-hung and otherwise well-endowed transsexual centaur! Clearly, Morrowind needs to be made Adults Only!

Oh noes, someone made a mod of Barbie's Baking Challenge that converts the pies she bakes into Jewish Children, and the Betty Crocker Cooking Campus into Auschwitz! Clearly, Barbie's Baking Challenge needs to be made - what, it's only monstrous violence and not sex? - well, Mature then.

Re:It's about time!

[MikeFM]

Give me a break. If you buy or play GTA you know what kind of content to expect from it. It is rated M and they make no effort to hide what their game is all about. If anything I'd be more likely to buy their games if they just went full-on adult content. I love the sex and violence. Such a good change from the crap most games give us.

Re:It's about time!

[Anonymous Coward]

No, only retarded Americans spell it that way.

Re:It's about time!

[gstoddart]

I for one am very glad that this whole debacle is over. I think it's somewhat ridiculous that people are angry at Rockstar. AFAIK, GTA:SA is rated M for violence and sexual content. Why must it be AO now? This certainly wasn't hardcore porno, it was not even as bad as what you see on cable late at night.

I watched the video sample of the Hot Coffe mod.

As someone who has two teenage nephews who I know play this game (despite me telling their mother thei oughtn't) I would definitely say it's hardly appropriate content. [ caveat -- I dont think *any* of the content of the game is appropriate really ].

I mean, from the video the player clearly had a "Change Posiions" button. It may not be the most hardcore stuff I've ever seen, but it's definitely inching towards that level.

Re:It's about time!

[Anonymous Coward]

I've got that game, and the hidden content is an animated short called "Slappy Hunny and Carnal Misty"

Re:It's about time!

[gstoddart]

No, Rockstar didn't deceive anyone. When you went out and bought the game, there was no possible way that you were going to get exposed to this "sex scene" without knowingly going out of your way to enable it. No possible way. Therefore, the sex scene was not part of the "content of the game", and therefore Rockstar did not deceive anyone about the content of the game.

Well, it may be true that it was "present but disabled".

But I seem to remember seeing several articles where they asserted that the modders would have been completely at fault since they created the code to make this play. At one point they made the bold statement that none of that content was present on the shipping disks.

Whether or not they decieved anyone before the whole issue came up, they certainly didn't come clean after the whole thing blew up.

Re:It's about time!

[Anonymous Coward]

If the ESRB had thier way? YES! They ar fucking insaine with how much they charge for thier review process and all you get to send them is maybe an hour long tape, a sumary, and thats it. The ESRB is nothing more than a group of fucknuts VCs that wanted a continual cash supply for next to no risk.

Re:It's about time!

[Anonymous Coward]

Hacking the savefile is no different than hacking game. It's a hack. The content cannot be viewed by playing the game through any avenue presented by the content provider. Without alteration of some sort, that scene is not accessible. Period. Therefore, I don't believe that it is justified to re-rate this game based on content that cannot be viewed without alteration. Arguments about re-rating this game based on the hack is absurd given the nature of the default content to begin with.

And FYI, as a software developer myself, often sections of code rendered obsolete or part of functionality removed are quite often left in due to time constraints. Many times components of a piece of software cannot be completed in time or doesn't meet some requirement (maybe in this case exceeded the M rating). So it is removed, but the way in which it is removed is uaully removal of the calling functions rather than outright removing all pieces of code because they would require a great deal more regression testing to ensure that there were no impacts to the rest of the game (which may lead to a push in the delivery date). I suspect that this is likely the cause of the code being in the game. THe original poster says Rockstar screwed the modding community. In fact, I contend that the modding community screwed Rockstar. Nice going, guys.

Re:It's about time!

[maxpublic]

Kids not being reared properly is the single reason our society will continue in its decadent downward spiral.

More decadence, please. Maybe it'll be enough to counteract the right-wing christian fundies and their own brand of forced moral lunacy. Even the whole thing out, so to speak.

Max

Re:It's about time!

[tricorn]

As far as the PC version is concerned, what's the difference whether the content was "already there" or was added by a mod downloaded from the Internet? If there's no way to see the content except by modifying the game (or save file) in some way, then the content isn't "really there". Now, I suppose if there was 4 GB of hardcore porn that could be unlocked by creating a file of the right name with "give me porn" as the contents, I might agree that it was "mostly there" and should be rated as such. This is so far from that I don't see why it was ever a problem.

As for the PS2 version, you can't get the nude models (as I understand it) and you need a way to hack the save game (I guess you can do that with a Game Shark or equivalent?). For most people, they just aren't going to be able to do that. I'm certainly not going to go out and buy something just so I can unlock some cheesy fake sex, nor is it worth the trouble to me to save a game file to the hard drive, take the drive out and install it in a machine that has one of those old-fangled IDE interfaces, figure out the format on the disk, modify the saved game, re-install the drive and copy it back out to a memory card.

That said, I did go out and buy it that evening before Best Buy had a chance to pull it from the shelf. I wouldn't be surprised to see a large sales spike for the game in the week leading up to it, more than enough to make up for temporary loss of sales. I note that Amazon still has it for sale, and have it marked as Adults Only.

Re:It's about time!

[GPLDAN]

This is about Hillary Clinton. Like her or hate her, I am not taking sides in that one. But this is part of her campaign to move to the center. She needs to take on issues of morality, of "saving the children", of making sure she's tough on smut. I'm not sure why, exactly, it may have to do with the fact that the GOP released a smear book about her insinuating she is, and always has been, a lesbian.

Either way, it's a calculated ploy, a checkmark on an agenda designed to set up her run in 2008. She has looked at the numbers, and studied very carefully why Kerry lost, and is not going to make those mistakes. As a woman, she dares not divorce Bill, that was a decision made long ago, even though she loathes him. She needs to prepare her armor against the religious right who will tell her that she is not family values based, not somebody "right" for America. A female presidential candiate has a whole suite of attacks open that don't exist for men. Next up will probably something on terrorism or foreign policy based. Being from New York that makes sense, although she can't touch the insane distrubution of homeland security money, she needs to win states like Colorado and Wyoming, who get "throw away" money.

Re:It's about time!

[Rycross]

The content was programmed into the game. It was unlocked with a code. The content WAS in the game, just unnaccessable until the code came along.

Re:It's about time!

[tricorn]

Actually, that's a good argument for using a dead-code and dead-data analysis-and-removal program. Data model references should be explicit enough to figure out what isn't being referenced any longer (whether directly from code or from other parts of the data). Eliminate all code that isn't accessible, then basically garbage-collect the data with references from the code as the base.

Re:It's about time!

[quantaman]

The content was programmed into the game. It was unlocked with a code. The content WAS in the game, just unnaccessable until the code came along.

The game is what you can play by having the program in an unaltered form. Bits don't have an intrinsic meaning, they aren't a picture or a soundtrack, they're just bits, it's how they're read and processed which gives them meaning. Bits that are never read cannot be content, they can't be anything other than some arbitrary 1s and 0s. The content was not in the game, the code puts it in the game.

Re:It's about time!

[Anonymous Coward]

Riiiiight. "The bullet was not in the gun, pulling the trigger puts it in the gun."

Re:It's about time!

[kosmicki]

It is sorta funny, as you know they had to review it as a team and were discussing it. "No no, I think it needs to be longer. Maybe a shade darker. Can you make that motion a little smoother?"

Re:It's about time!

[renderhead]

Sounds like you're behind on the news. This wasn't a mod, this was built into the game. Hidden, yes, but built-in. Rockstar has no other plausible explanation for why the content is in the PS2 version of the game.

When you buy GTA:SA, this content is on the disk. As such, it's a part of the product being sold. If the ESRB is going to be at all relevant, it needs to take the complete product into account when it places its ratings, and it sounds like they are doing just that (and they are probably more than a little irritated with Rockstar for putting them in a position to have to change a rating).

Re:It's about time!

[Caiwyn]

Hacking the savefile is no different than hacking game. It's a hack. The content cannot be viewed by playing the game through any avenue presented by the content provider. Without alteration of some sort, that scene is not accessible. Period.

By that logic, hitting the "start" button to start the game is a hack. You don't have to alter the save game file, just like you don't technically have to insert the disc into the console. Unless, of course, you want to access the content that's on the disc you bought.

And that's what this is. It's accessing content on the disc that Rockstar sells. Just because Rockstar doesn't make it easy to get to doesn't make it any less a part of the product they sell.

Many times components of a piece of software cannot be completed in time or doesn't meet some requirement (maybe in this case exceeded the M rating). So it is removed, but the way in which it is removed is uaully removal of the calling functions rather than outright removing all pieces of code because they would require a great deal more regression testing to ensure that there were no impacts to the rest of the game (which may lead to a push in the delivery date). I suspect that this is likely the cause of the code being in the game.

If so, then why did Rockstar lie about it? They claimed early on that the content was not in face part of their code, but it clearly was.

Re:It's about time!

[renderhead]

I don't think that I disagree with you on principle. I think that an "unrated" disclaimer would be appropriate in these cases (for example, "Game Rated M for Mature / Additional Content Unrated"). Of course, this would require Rockstar or whoever to be forthcoming about the existence of additional content.

The problem with mods isn't only that they are unrated, it's that the kids are obtaining them on their own, circumventing their parents. If the kids are getting around their parents, then the ratings are worthless in most cases anyway. I believe that in most places, there's no law forbidding a 10 year old from buying a rate "M" game.

The ESRB ratings are only useful when they are 1.) consistent, 2.) accurate, and 3.) visible to parents. The Hot Coffee incident demonstrates that the ESRB cannot completely guarantee any of the three. Personally, I think that if #3 is met, it falsely promises that #1 and #2 will be met as well. If they can't be guaranteed, then the whole system should be thrown out.

Re:It's about time!

[mrsteele]

You've got to be kidding me. All content on the disc has to be included in the rating? They don't include all of the information on the rolls of film when they rate movies. What if a reel of film had information included so that if you ran it through the projector in a different way you saw more boobies? Should that be included? Clearly not, since in the normal course of showing the film audiences will not see it.

This is essentially the same thing, except we all own projectors. If you can't find it without modifying the game, it shouldn't be included in the rating.

Re:It's about time!

[Anonymous Coward]

its a mod in as much you have to hack your game (or saved files) to access it. The PC version required hacking the game with a mod. The PS2 and X-box versions required editing your saved game files on your memory card (which requires special hardware to interface you memory card with you pc).

Re:It's about time!

[ArsonSmith]

Couldn't that be a DMCA violation?

Re:It's about time!

[geekoid]

The big unknown is that your interaction with comic books is very limited, but the interaction with video games is a lot more personal. Also, At no point could I fly and punch through a wall, but everyday I could decide to drive over pedestrians.

Also, studies are showing that the brain behaves similiarly to video games that it does when we actually do something, unlick written medium.

What does this mean? beat's me, but I think it's a mistake to blow it off like it is the same as any other medium, because it is not.

Well, rockstar games did hide content on the disk that is outside the rating. That is a problem. Now it may have been one employee that did it, but that does count as an action by Rockstar.

Re:It's about time!

[geekoid]

What could ahve happened is that the developers said it was removed, Rockstar PR rep assumed it was a true statement and released it to the press.

Not to remove any liability from ROckStar, but I have seen upper managment in corporations tell the truth, and then later find out they were wrong becasue someone lied.

Of course,what do you mean be 'corporation'? it is just a pice of paper.
Do you mean the board? the employees? do you condem everyone becasue 1 employee was wrong?

Re:It's about time!

[Firethorn]

Given that it takes downloading a new binary, now does this differ from doing things like moding 'dirty content' into various games like the Sims, Counterstrike, DukeNukem3D, etc. Heck, real easy in counterstrike, simply import a small porn picture as your 'mark'. If somebody runs an open server, you can even spam others with it. I also remember one that replaced the hostages with 'swedish blondes'.

Re:It's about time!

[Firethorn]

Well, rockstar games did hide content on the disk that is outside the rating.

Or did they simply practice poor content control. I know that when I'm programming, I often don't remove procedures and subs I'm not using anymore. Now, I'm making internal use programs in a one-man operation, so it isn't always a big deal, but it could have been the action of one programmer who removed just the mark for the content, but failed to remove the content(for whatever reason).

Re:It's about time!

[Firethorn]

That reminds me of an old webcomic where a developer was demonstrating a program that would 'find' pornographic images in any binary data of over a certain size(10 megs?). They were argueing that since the program didn't contain any porn, but just found it, that it would be unregulated. That was shot down when one of the main characters asked how large the executable for the 'finder' program was(50 meg?). "OMG!!! Is that even possible?" resulted ;).

Re:It's about time!

[Catnapster]

Here's an analogy: The new movie The Devil's Rejects is about three psychotic serial killers committing horrifying, brutal, gruesome murders more or less for the fun of it, and contains graphic scenes of violence and mayhem; it's quite appropriately rated R. (The R rating is somewhat analogous to the M rating on video games, such as GTA:SA, although many stores will sell M games without ID.)

Suppose, when The Devil's Rejects is released on DVD, the DVD contains a hidden pornographic scene that is not mentioned on the packaging. The MPAA ignores it. Would this somehow set a precedent where a G-rated Disney DVD could include a similar hidden pornographic scene?

If not, then why would "Hot Coffee" - remember that it's surrounded by gang wars and massive numbers of Federal felonies - somehow set a precedent for sneaking pornographic minigames into E-rated games for children?

Rockstar is being made into an example for all game companies to discourage the insertion of "easter eggs" that might change the rating of the game were they enabled by default.

GTA was misrated to begin with. The horrifying sprees of violence and mayhem I unleashed on the population of Vice City seem like "prolonged scenes of intense violence" (part of the ESRB website's criteria for an AO rating) to me. I suppose that's different because I chose to eviscerate virtual policemen with a chainsaw for hours, whereas the "Hot Coffee" game is much more scripted and essentially forces the player into having rather mundane, consensual sex with his character's girlfriend... but then again you have to choose twice - once to enable the content and once to actually go in and play the minigame - to play the "Hot Coffee" content.

These games are inappropriate for children no matter what other content is hidden on the disc. It is fallacious to suggest that the ESRB ignoring "Hot Coffee" in the already-notorious GTA series would lead to the ESRB ignoring "Freakshow Mode" in an E-rated game intended for children.

Re:It's about time!

[StikyPad]

the nation was going to be full of little murderers if something wasn't done.

Pfft.. yep, we sure showed them. There's hardly any murders nowadays.

Re:It's about time!

[renderhead]

It is fallacious to suggest that the ESRB ignoring "Hot Coffee" in the already-notorious GTA series would lead to the ESRB ignoring "Freakshow Mode" in an E-rated game intended for children.

I wasn't suggesting that the ESRB was ignoring the hidden content. The problem was that they didn't know about it, placing the responsibility in this case squarely upon Rockstar. The ESRB is completely useless if they can be circumvented by a technicality such as "it takes extra work to see it". The ESRB made the correct decision in this case by changing the rating. They've effectively levied a "sanction" against Rockstar which will hurt their sales and serve as a warning to other game makers that they can't just sneak this stuff in without consequences.

While supplies last

[Anonymous Coward]

Get it while you still can.

This game is going to be a mark in gaming history...

Re:While supplies last

[JavaLord]

That is the funny part, I didn't buy it the last time because I I didnt like vice city very much. I'll probably have to go buy this one just to see what the fuss is about.

Re:While supplies last

[sqlrob]

Notice there's no "Add to cart" button (but there is an "add to baby registry").

I added it to my cart the night the AO changed, and kept it in saved items. The next day, "Move to cart" didn't work.

So, no, it's too late for getting it at Amazon.

Re:While supplies last

[evil-osm]

Exactly!

So their stocks went down 5%, whoop de doo, they are making cash hand over fist with all this PR for this game, just think of all the people teetering as on wether or not to buy the game, then all this excitement comes out about it, possible fear that they may remove the game from store shelves.... I bet the game sold like crazy.

Re:While supplies last

[swissfondue]

Free publicity. How often do US senators give air time to a game? How many kids are now asking their older siblings "please, can you get a copy for me?" Great marketing move.

Re:While supplies last

[maotx]

While Amazon may not be offering it anymore, eBay has it going for $71 USD at the moment...

Re:While supplies last

[ajservo]

Too late...

Although, I can add it to my baby shower registry...

Isn't that what got you the baby in the first place CJ?

I hate America

[Mr.Dippy]

Let's see the game is about black men running around smacking hoes and doing drive bys and most people don't have a problem with this. But, once you add some sex into the game there are congressional hearings. Stupid America, when will you ever learn?!

Re:I hate America

[Ced_Ex]

I wouldn't say America, more like those stuck up Holier-Than-Thou retards at the ratings board.

I can't see how sex is more evil than violence. Think of the utopia they want to have. A world with violence and no sex. Wait... wouldn't that be the fuckin apocalypse?

Re:I hate America

[Anonymous Coward]

You didn't have a problem when it was white guys running around smacking hoes and killing people. When will you learn?

Re:I hate America

[garcia]

But, once you add some sex into the game there are congressional hearings. Stupid America, when will you ever learn?!

I was having this discussion last night... America obviously didn't learn when we ended legal rascism during the 1960s because we are now trying to legally stop insurance coverage for homosexual couples.

Not only didn't the government learn but the American public didn't either.

It's really sad.

Re:I hate America

[macshit]

I have a feeling it's more like "those craven tools at the ratings board who will bend over and scream `harder!' before any politician who is trying to boost his sagging popularity ratings among the drooling mouth-breathers that form his electorate".

I'm moving to neptune.

Re:I hate America

[operagost]

What does this have to do with GTA:SA, again?

Re:I hate America

[Builder]

A world with violence and no sex. Wait... wouldn't that be the fuckin apocalypse?

Uhm, no it wouldn't. The fucking apocalypse will have sex. I think you're thinking of the regular apocalypse.

Re:I hate America

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm moving to neptune.

You will probably scream for global warming there. Good Luck. So long, have a safe trip!

Re:I hate America

[Anonymous Coward]

Or Racism again?

Re:I hate America

[DLWormwood]

I can't see how sex is more evil than violence. Think of the utopia they want to have... apocalypse?

The Biblical Book Of Revelations (aka "Apocalypse" in ancient languages) was written to describe the "end times" that Christians believe will happen that will finally wipe the Earth clean of evil. It is a very violent book, filled with surreal images of carnage and suffering, but very little sexual content. (It's almost the polar opposite of Song Of Solomon in that regard.) Christian culture (which the U.S. is heavily influenced by) has always regarded violence as a path of virture and sex as a path to damnation. (The whole "thou shalt not kill" business was a mistranslation of the original Hebrew; it refers to murder, not military warfare.)

Given that many of the more Evangelical types of Christian are now political savvy and powerful in post-Cold War American, it's little wonder that our culture is starting to "self-fulfill" the prophesies in the book. America's constant strife with Middle Eastern countries (and backing of Isreal) is inline with the "Battle Of Megido" depicted in that book. Most of the Fundamentalists in this country are expecting the "Rapture" to happen in their lifetime. I know; I used to be one growing up...

Re:I hate America

[Anonymous Coward]

Most of the Fundamentalists in this country are expecting the "Rapture" to happen in their lifetime. I know; I used to be one growing up...

Well, it's nice to know at least one grew up. :)

Re:I hate America

[gregorio]

I wouldn't say America, more like those stuck up Holier-Than-Thou retards at the ratings board.

Agreed.

I can't see how sex is more evil than violence.

It's not "more evil". It's just something that's a part of a normal life and a part of children's curiosity. Kids know that violence is just wrong and should always be avoided, but for sex things doesn't work the same way.

You see, parent's don't want to raise their kids in a world where sex has no real value and no moral boundaries. That would mean pregnant 14 year olds and a lot of teenagers confused and frustrated about sex. And the problem it's not just about kids, but also about "grown ups", because sex is something with real emotional value. If you start acting like sex is something as normal as a handshake, by showing it all the time in the media, you're destroying an important part of human relationships. It's just a matter of preserving a part of our monogamic and love-bound culture.

People (well, I do and everyone I know does) have their values, with some kind of a list of things that are important and sweet and yadda yadda yadda. We must respect that.

And don't get started with all the talk about "real parenting" and "staying close to your kids" because if something is mainstream, even the best parent in the world is not going to be able to stop their kids from doing wrong things. If everybody is banging each other in parties and after school, because the TV depicts that as "normal", you will never be able to control your kids without being an asshole and locking them up.

In fact, the difference between sex and violence is very simple: violence is stupid and avoidable, thefore we can abuse it. Sex is important and has real value (and real uses).

Re:I hate America

[Anonymous Coward]

No, the fucking apocalypse will have no sex. When this happens, we'll all learn the real meaning of armageddon as sexually-frustrated people start shooting each other up in lieu of knocking each other up.

Re:I hate America

[krbvroc1]

I disagree with your main premise and I think it highlights some of the issues.

First, Sex != Love. There is a lot more to a loving relationship that you don't get just from sex.

Parents, particulary conservative ones, seems to want to live in a world of ideology versus the real world--ignorance it bliss. Out of sight, out of mind, etc. These are all issue that need to be addressed, discussed, and countered. If it is mainstream then they need to be able to cope with it. Its an opportunity to teach that because its mainstream doesn't make it right and individuality is important in developing their values.

As far as your comment that 'Kids know that violence is just wrong and should always be avoided' is wrong on so many levels. First, our culture celebrates violence. To use your words-'its mainstream'. Second, our schools where many children learn their social skills do not have a zero tolerence policy on 'fighting' - its written off as 'boys will be boys'. Third, if you believe we lead by example, we have been at war killing people for the past few years, its mainstream. Kids see that on the news and its 'normal' and 'accepted'.

Re:I hate America

[lucas_picador]

Let's see the game is about black men running around smacking hoes... Why is it relevant that they're black? Are you saying that people should object to the racial stereotyping going on, or that these acts are particularly shocking when carried out by black people?

Re:I hate America

[DroopyStonx]

No, it's America.

That's why you can see someone with a bullet through their skull on prime time TV and the very reason why seeing a nipple during half-time is fucking blasphemy.

Flat out, majority of people in this country are stupid fucking sheep that don't bother thinking or questioning their surroundings.

Seriously, I'd love to have ONE person tell me why it's okay to see people getting shot all over TV, but you can't see two people fucking.

Fucking sheep. Fucking America. This country disgusts me.

Re:I hate America

[Mr.Dippy]

I would say the Racial stereotyping. The black community in the inner cities is a complete joke. Drugs, crime, unemployment, kids born out of wed lock, etc. contribute to this stereotype for blacks everywhere. They keep yelling about role models and being responsible but this type of theme in the game doesn't help out any. Instead of being outraged that Rock Star is feeding into the stereotype, the board and white america let it pass. Now that there is sex in the game people are yelling about "what about the children??!!"

Re:I hate America

[Anonymous Coward]

Violence frees others of their mortality, sex roots them firmly in their bodies ;)

Re:I hate America

[TapeCutter]

"I know; I used to be one growing up..."

We all get sucked in by mumbo-jumbo at least once, some more than others. Although it's not about a persons intelligence it is about manipulating peoples faith (especially the young and impressionable).

In the '70s I thought Uri Geller was for real, (my "dead" watch started ticking, haha). It was a magician's book that first woke me up, (The Great Randi). My mum gave up teaching sunday school because "it was brainwashing drivel", and so it goes on.

People need to be exposed to a wide variety of philisophical and religious views before they can be expected to be tolerant and reasonable. Without that "wordly education" people tend to end up saying stuff like "You're either with us or against us!" and then proceed to blow each other up.

Re:I hate America

[lucas_picador]

Well, I agree with you that GTA feeds into a lot of pretty offensive racial caricatures. As for the "black community of the inner cities" being a "complete joke", I'm not sure what you mean. Economically depressed black communities in America have a lot of problems to deal with, but few of them are funny.

Re:I hate America

[chphilli]

I think you have a severe misunderstanding of the role of sex in the Christian life. Go pick up a copy of C. S. Lewis's Mere Christianity (most bookstores will have it), and read it. That should clear up a lot of the misunderstanding you seem to have about the issue.

Re:I hate America

[PriceIke]

+1 Interesting .. interesting ..... unbelievable. Who's interested in yet another diatribe about how terrible America is? You're not saying anything that hasn't been said fifty bazillion times already.

If you don't like "this country" as you put it, why don't you just GO? There are PLENTY of other places in this world you could live. I'm so sick of all the people who just spew invective about this country like it's the worst freakin country on the planet, for years and years, and never leave. It's like going to a McDonalds every day and carping about how bad the food is, and continuing to come back, every day. IF you have half a brain, you will figure out what it takes to leave, and then LEAVE.

Now watch, this will be the post that gets modded "flamebait".

Re:I hate America

[kin_korn_karn]

that's exactly what the fundamentalists want. that would mean the Rapture would happen and they could go to heaven without having to painfully die first.

Re:I hate America

[John Harrison]

The Biblical Book Of Revelations

This is a nit that I must pick. The name of the book is singular, not plural.

Re:I hate America

[doorbender]

the only people (or view) i cannot tolerate is the intolerant.

Re:I hate America

[gregorio]

I disagree with your main premise and I think it highlights some of the issues.

First, Sex != Love. There is a lot more to a loving relationship that you don't get just from sex.

Yet Sex is still a part of of a love relationship. It means that sex, for people in love, is worth something more than sweating and feeling good. There is nothing wrong with sex w/o love, yet that doesn't mean that single people should be gettin' out on the streets, banging each other. What I mean that even single people having sex with no feelings attribute some kind of value (even if that's just "I trust you") to it.

If it's already hard enough for "grown-ups" to deal with sex, I can't even start to imagine how hard is it going to be for kids growing up in a world full of boobies, people having hardcore sex on the TV and games where the main character asks for a BJ and... gets it.

Parents, particulary conservative ones, seems to want to live in a world of ideology versus the real world--ignorance it bliss. Out of sight, out of mind, etc. These are all issue that need to be addressed, discussed, and countered. If it is mainstream then they need to be able to cope with it. Its an opportunity to teach that because its mainstream doesn't make it right and individuality is important in developing their values.

If we can avoid something becoming mainstream, why shouldn't we? Why should we let children get confused about sex, because some people want to see boobies at the TV?

Why should we infect the TV with innapropriate content (for most of the parents) when we already have dedicated channels for that? If you want to give your kid different education, just buy him a Playboy subscription. Sex content today is an opt-in system. Why do you people want it to be opt-out?

I'm sorry, but I don't want a fscked-up world just to have the "opportunity" to teach different values to my kids.

As far as your comment that 'Kids know that violence is just wrong and should always be avoided' is wrong on so many levels. First, our culture celebrates violence. To use your words-'its mainstream'. Second, our schools where many children learn their social skills do not have a zero tolerence policy on 'fighting' - its written off as 'boys will be boys'. Third, if you believe we lead by example, we have been at war killing people for the past few years, its mainstream. Kids see that on the news and its 'normal' and 'accepted'.

You're forgetting the fact that it is pretty easy to draw limits on violence. It's not like the U.S. soldiers at Iraq are going to pick-up a gun and sell drugs on the street just because they were engaged in violence actions during war.

About kids fighting: I was not saying that violence does not exists. It does. But in mainstream it is perceived as something wrong.

Yes, it's true that some things about violence are just wrong in our society. Yet two wrongs don't make a right. The reaction to violence should not be giving sex less value.

Re:I hate America

[SenorChuck]

If you can control love and sex, you can control the people. Obviously you haven't read 1984, or you'd have understood that by now.

Please take your trollish flamewar elsewhere. Be the change you want to see in the world around you.

Re:I hate America

[DroopyStonx]

Why should I leave?

Is that always your typical response? It's typical, you know - not much thought put into it. "Oh, why don't you leave."

Why don't you use your brain?

I do something about the problem, unlike you and all the other mindless fucking drones who do what they're told.

Re:I hate America

[Phyvo]

I am a Christian. Doubtless, there are some Christians that you are right in this respect about. But I am not one of them.

The Christian point of view is that sex is great when you do it the way God designed you to: at the very least, monogamously. Doing it otherwise is like trying to eat vegetables with only your two upper front teeth. It's just not the way you were designed to eat.

The New Testament condemns any sort of violence, such as revenge, or even being really angry with your brother for spilling coke on your PS2. I admit, I don't have a very good short answer for what goes on in the Old Testament. I'm still looking into that. In any case, even it doesn't support randomly killing people like in GTA.

Note, I am not defending church history, or "Christian" culture. I am only defending the Christian the Bible tells us to be.

Re:I hate America

[brsmith4]

why don't you just GO?

Oh, Fuck off! Leaving one's country is not as simple as you think it is. This country is fucked. No doubt about it. It's turned into a state full of selfish, consumer-driven, gullible, and worse yet, fundamentalist idiots. You'd like us to go, wouldn't you? Dissent makes people like you cringe... It scares you so much to question your own "values" (whatever the fuck that means) that you'd rather that dissenting voice be crushed and expelled from your presense. No, it is not we who should leave but it is you.

I'm so sick of all the people who just spew invective about this country like it's the worst freakin country on the planet

Can you name any other country that is currently fully involved in two simultaneous wars for conquest, on another continent?! Who else is torturing civilians, captured fighters, and is bombing, maming, shooting, and killing many tens or hundereds of thousands of Civilians? We've already beat Saddam himself in the number of people we've slaughtered. How many more will it take before you open your eyes and see that things are not right in la la land?

We are the worst country on the planet. We are the only state that has the power and ability to project its will on anyone yet we use the worst possible reasoning and discretion when asserting and utilizing that power. Yes, we are the worst country on the planet. The U.S. is a snotty teenaged kid with his finger on the trigger and a barrel pointed straight at the world's collective head.

Re:I hate America

[Nasarius]

If you don't like "this country" as you put it, why don't you just GO?

Personally, I plan to. I love this country, I love the ideals it was founded on. But the people are fucking morons. But in the years that remain before I do leave, what exactly is wrong with pointing out the flaws. Flaws which the great majority of Americans don't seem to even notice, perhaps because they've never even traveled overseas.

Re:I hate America

[MS-06FZ]

Yeah, but all the sex in the fuckin apocalypse is going to be those tentacle monsters... so it's not like we're gonna get to enjoy it.

Re:I hate America

[WonderChef]

Regarding sex:

Sex is not "a path to damnation" in Christianity; as the primal creative act, it is beautiful and sacred, our imitation of the Creator. It is an act with a goal and a consequence, and taken outside of that context (producing a child, not just enjoying ourselves without consequence) can have disastrous effects upon the father, mother, and child. Yes, there are single fathers and mothers who manage to get through their lives. I'm not going to say that they are poor parents. But I'm sure we all know people that had an "accident" that resulted in their lives becoming pretty difficult. Wouldn't it have been better if that child was born when the parents were certain of their love, and in an appropriate financial situation to support a family?

In mentioning the Song of Solomon, you see how sex isn't a path to damnation. When Mary Magdalene washed Jesus' feet with her tears and hair, that was nearly a sexual act in the context of their society at the time. Yet He says to her that her sins are forgiven, that her faith has saved her, to go in peace.

Sex is given to us as a gift to rejoice in, that we might find one whom we truly love and create with them as God created us out of love; what is not supported is the viewing of sex as something for our own ephemeral pleasure, devoid of its true context and ramifications. And this is not to say that sex cannot be pleasant! Just that we must be mindful of what exactly we are doing, what it means and why this gift was given to us.

It is unfortunate that the Western traditions of Christianity developed such an attitude of guilt regarding sex. To understand that we are sinners, that we miss the mark (the meaning of sin in Greek), and to comprehend that in the context of God's love and forgiveness for us results in humility. Guilt, however, is concerned with a person looking at their stature amongst others. It is about judging oneself and one's neighbor, saying, "Not even God is big enough to forgive me." Guilt seeks the love of men, not God, and deny's God's forgiveness. Approaching the gift of human sexuality with an attitude of fear and guilt is just as dangerous as having wanton sex!

Regarding violence:

Turn the other cheek, judge not lest ye be judged, love thy neighbor as thyself, do unto others as you would have them do unto you; as I have loved you, love one another--by this will all men know ye are My disciples. Forgiving up to seventy times seventy. Confessing our sins to one another, asking forgiveness of one another, and forgiving one another as the Father forgives his Prodigal Son. All the sufferings of Christ and the Apostles and the Martyrs, borne with patience in renunciation of this world's ways. Healing the man whose ear was cut off, a man who came to take Jesus to his death. Where is violence seen as virtue in these essential sayings?

Yes, people die in Revelations. Bad things happen. But in this world of choice, of physical matter, not all states of matter are pleasing. In a world of causality, all our actions have have consequences, and we will reap what we sow. And we cannot see the chain of causality, that incomprehensible spider web of order in chaos as all our actions come to full manifestation, in very real carnage and suffering. We can choose our ego, thinking that we know what is best for us in love of self and ephemeral pleasure, or we can choose to submit ourselves to God's will, that our Father in Heaven knows what we require to bring us to glory. God became man that man might become like God, and it is our choice to decide whether that is what we desire or not.

Christ teaches us how to bring the Kingdom of Heaven down to Earth, into the interior of our heart (the Kingdom of Heaven is within you), to transcend suffering -- even rejoice in it -- and bear our crosses on a pilgrimage, forgiving those who mock us, spit at us, even kill us: as Christ forgave those who did the same to him. Not to escape away in a rapture, but to bear persecutions and sufferings as the Martyrs did, that i

Re:I hate America

[krbvroc1]

If it's already hard enough for "grown-ups" to deal with sex, I can't even start to imagine how hard is it going to be for kids growing up in a world full of boobies, people having hardcore sex on the TV and games where the main character asks for a BJ and... gets it.

Here is where I think the ideology vs realism is the problem. I think its hard enough for 'grown-ups' to deal with sex because their parents/community/church/school didn't educate on it to begin with. Instead of discussing it, exploring, forming a value system, the main message is 'dont do it, dont ask about it, its dirty, feel guilty if you think about it, don't touch yourself', etc.

If we can avoid something becoming mainstream, why shouldn't we? Why should we let children get confused about sex, because some people want to see boobies at the TV?

This is find so interesting. What about other countries/cultures where boobies are shown without the stigma? The very fact that we Americans treat boobies as such sexual objects creates the notion that they are only sexual objects. All this sexual repression is a self fulfilling prophecy! In addition, your concern is like 40 years too late. You have to raise your kids in the environment they are surrounded by. If you choose to cocoon them they are not going to have the coping skills when they are confronted by it later.

You're forgetting the fact that it is pretty easy to draw limits on violence. It's not like the U.S. soldiers at Iraq are going to pick-up a gun and sell drugs on the street just because they were engaged in violence actions during war.

This might not be popular to say about our military, but just wait until they return. You will see a lot of violence, drug use, psychological problems etc.

I guess we will just have to disagree on the violence in the maintstream being perceived as something wrong. Our whole movie culture glorifies violence and created hero characters who use violence as their main tool.

Re:I hate America

[grammar fascist]

Can some moderator mod the parent up? He's a Christian, telling it like it is from a Christian point of view. The grandparent poster is a disaffected Christian using a prophecy about how things will be, rather than actual proscriptions for behavior, to smear all of Christianity.

Grandparent: 5, Parent: 1.

WTF????

Come on, Slashdot.

Re:I hate America

[deesine]

Tolerance at its brightest? Or a second-tier, good-enough, implementation perhaps.

Re:I hate America

[gregorio]

Here is where I think the ideology vs realism is the problem. I think its hard enough for 'grown-ups' to deal with sex because their parents/community/church/school didn't educate on it to begin with. Instead of discussing it, exploring, forming a value system, the main message is 'dont do it, dont ask about it, its dirty, feel guilty if you think about it, don't touch yourself', etc.

No, it's not that simple and I wasn't talking aboult guilt. I'm talking about human interaction. Sex is not just about banging-time. The most difficult part of sex is how you managed to get it, and how things are going to be before it happens.

It's not about feeling guilty of touching yourself. It's about relationship complexity, even between single people. It's about feelings. Most single urban-modern people are going to tell you that they don't care about feelings and such while doing occasional sex. Well, they're lying. They DO care if the other person wanted sex because they're a slut or because the other person thinks they're hot/interesting/nice.

So it's not just about raising kids to handle penetration and such. It's about raising kids to live in a world with human interaction.

You see, other people have feelings too, and most of the time you're not going to be able to tell what the hell they're thinking. A person with a fscked-up notion of sex is also going to be a fscked social human being. This is one of the reasons why a lot of highschool jocks and cheerleaders end up stuck in bad marriages: they grew up in some kind of stupid parallel universe with values and notions that are completely unrelated to the real world. And for most of the time, they thought everyone else didn't have feelings or opinions, because everybody ust seemed to agree with them all the time.

This is find so interesting. What about other countries/cultures where boobies are shown without the stigma? The very fact that we Americans treat boobies as such sexual objects creates the notion that they are only sexual objects. All this sexual repression is a self fulfilling prophecy! In addition, your concern is like 40 years too late. You have to raise your kids in the environment they are surrounded by. If you choose to cocoon them they are not going to have the coping skills when they are confronted by it later

You people like to talk about these cultures but never mention them. In wich country boobies are OK to be shown on TV? India? Iran (The hell no =] ...)? Where? Even here in Brazil this kind of thing is morally forbidden and widely discussed as something bad for the children.

This might not be popular to say about our military, but just wait until they return. You will see a lot of violence, drug use, psychological problems etc.

Agreed. But that's not going to happen because of confusion related to violence. That's going to happen because blowing someone's head up can really fsck-up your mind.

I guess we will just have to disagree on the violence in the maintstream being perceived as something wrong. Our whole movie culture glorifies violence and created hero characters who use violence as their main tool.

Hero violence is not violence. It's "justice". The violent ones are the bad guys. Violence is not about fair reaction but about doing something unwanted to a person. And it's not just about guns, kicks and punching. It's also about forcing someone to do sttuf they don't want to.

Remember those movies about nice school boys getting revenge on the bigger kids who used to beat them up? With the nice background music and stuff? Justice is more than the California Gov beating the crap out of some terrorist.

Remember USA Independence Wars? Was that "violence"?

Re:I hate America

[egomaniac]

The Christian point of view is that sex is great when you do it the way God designed you to: at the very least, monogamously. Doing it otherwise is like trying to eat vegetables with only your two upper front teeth. It's just not the way you were designed to eat.

Nonsense. Eating vegetables with only your two upper front teeth might be silly, but no Christian is going to claim that doing so will get you sent to hell. But both the Bible and common Christian belief tell us in quite definitive terms that people engaing in, say, gay sex (among other "unnatural" sexual acts) are most definitely going to hell. You can believe that or not, as you choose. But I find the way you're trying to pass it off as quite disingenuous.

Virtually everything humans do is unnatural -- we don't naturally wear clothes, write, fly in airplanes, or live in houses. All of these things are learned and quite definitely unnatural. So, the fact that an act is "unnatural" is meaningless. The Christian opposition to non-monogamous, non-heterosexual, non-vaginal, or non-missionary-position sex has little to do with how natural these acts are. And in fact, missionary position itself is unnatural -- humans naturally have sex the way almost all other mammals do, in doggy style position. If it were natural to have sex in missionary position, the missionaries wouldn't have to preach about it in the first place, because everybody would have been doing it that way already.

On top of that, you appear to blithely agree with the viewpoint that we were "designed" to have sex monogamously (and, presumably, you also mean only heterosexually), which is a point I take exception to. Humans are not by nature monogamous -- our monogamy (or, more often, attempted monogamy) is a societal convention. Throughout human history the arrangement of one man and many wives has been far more common than the modern monogamous relationship. None of the other great apes, nor most mammals in general, are monogamous. Homosexuality is also well-documented in many other animal species and is perfectly natural.

I'd have to say that if God "designed" us to only have monogamous sex between a man and a woman, he did a pretty piss-poor job of it. I find it much easier to believe that we weren't designed at all -- we are animals with more brainpower than any other animal on the planet, and have been able to surpass them as a result. Honestly, what reason is there to believe anything else?

Re:I hate America

[Anonymous Coward]

So are you a Biblian or a Christian?

From my understanding it is the teachings of Jesus Christ (e.g., Treat others nice, Don't be a jerk to those worse off than you, Feed the hungry) that are supposed to be the driving force behind Christianity and not the words in a man-created (and thus by nature imperfect) book that is more often used in our modern day as a cudgel than a guide.

Put the book down, stop listening to what your favorite religious "authority" (pedagogues, presidents, preachers) tells you what to do and use your own conscience for a change. That's why you have it/were given it by God, isn't it?

Re:I hate America

[nfgaida]

I like the unnatural arguement, I'll have to use that myself.

Good points, good post.

Re:I hate America

[benzapp]

Hmm, every single Jewish holiday celebrates the slaughter of non-Jews or Jews who strayed from conservative tradition (ie the hellenized Jews of Hannakah). Their primary religious rite was based on animal sacrifice. Their method of slaying animals for food is barbaric and cruel and explicitly results in greater suffering of the animal. The old testament has numerous references of genocidal retribution of their god such as the great flood.

We could go on and on. The old testament is a sick book, where carnal lust and blood lust both dominate. The vast talmudic writings are even worse, with their endless references to gentiles as being animals and sex with them as being akin to beastiality.

I think your understanding of these religions and their respective texts is seriously lacking. Other than the book of revelation, its clear the New Testament is a book to pacify sheep and make them comfortable with their existence as slaves.

Re:I hate America

[oxaooo]

well being that they're "black" they are pepetuating a negative stereotype of a people that already have been blazenly negatively stereotyped for these past centuries.

That kind of sucks things really havn't changed much regarding the positions of human beings. Instead of them being preached bad about in church (where most people went in those days) They are not being talked bad about in games ( where most children are in these days )

I think to superscede racism if we are going to be talking about stereotypes of a negative level we need to focus these stereotypes on the majority of those that are making the product.

If most people are white making this product then they should have white guys running around doing all this horrid stuff. If it were black guys making this project then they should have to make it about black guys doing it. If it were mixed then the ratio of characters could support that mix.

If the stereo-types are positive then it shouldn't matter.

-my little two cents. maybe the president can hear me and create a few laws, or maybe the gaming industry can realize how racist they are and make some inside laws to keep things kosher.

Re:I hate America

[Castar]

I wouldn't say America, more like those stuck up Holier-Than-Thou retards at the ratings board.

Just to clear this up: There is no "ratings board" per se; what the ESRB does is get a panel of regular citizens (parents even, I think) and shows them the worst content in the game, as well as representative gameplay. Then these people tell the ESRB what the game should be rated. There's no single panel of "experts" or anything, it's just regular people with no ties to the gaming industry.

Re:I hate America

[DLWormwood]

The grandparent poster is a disaffected Christian using a prophecy about how things will be, rather than actual proscriptions for behavior, to smear all of Christianity.

First off, yes I agree that the down mod was bogus. But, it think the poster you're defending has helped clairfy my problem with modern Christianity. (I did mention Song of Solomon's eroticism, didn't I?!?) It's developed a "culture" that's completely wrong based on the original doctrine Jesus of Nazareth advocated. Such a target is worthy of being "smeared."

Re:I hate America

[deesine]

Beautiful.

This is probably the most articulate, well thought, and well meaning response I've read on slashdot.

Like the GP, I grew up in a Western (U.S.) Protestant Christian home, attending church practically every Sunday for the first 17 years of my life. However, my father instilled in me, just enough drive for truth finding and God searching that, inevitably, my spiritual quest took me outside the church. Far outside church.

The breaking of that first path was difficult, and I was soured by hypocrisy and shortcomings of what was supposed to be the way, the truth, man's most successful attempt at living according to God's will.

Looking back at that milestone, the feelings I have are similar to those of another developmental event; going through public elementary school. A very necessary experience made occasionally difficult by a bully or bad teacher.

I consider both those experiences as necessary developmental stages. Elementary school teaches us the basics, reading, writing, and math. Most churches teach us the basics of one of the world's traditional wisdom paths. Both of these institutions are a means to an end, not an end to a means. It's not healthy clinging to only a basic set of tools, rejecting any knowledge higher than grade school. And it's not healthy clinging to only one of the wisdom traditions that have attempted to answer man's most asked questions: who am I, and what is the meaning of life.

I believe Protestant Christianity does contain truth. Its exclusivity claims and attempts at monopoly that seem to tar the experience for many of its non/ex-members.

Re:I hate America

[cheesybagel]

I will take Christianity vs VHEMT any day. Suicide is for the weak of mind.

Re:I hate America

[maxpublic]

Sex is not just about banging-time.

Yes, you keep saying that. But what you fail to understand is that this is nothing more than your own personal opinion. While it may be true for you, it is in no way, shape, or form true for a great many other people. Your world is not our world.

For a lot of us we can and do have sex simply because it's fun. No more, no less.

Well, they're lying.

Bullshit. You don't like the world as it is so you decide anyone who doesn't agree with you is a liar.

Try getting over yourself, kid. You don't get to decide for the rest of us what's right and what's not, what's real and what's not. If this bothers you then too fucking bad - I mean, what're you going to do about it? Whine about the rest of us being liars or morally decadent? Cry me a river, but it's not as if you have the power to force your beliefs on us, nor will you ever have that power.

Max

Re:I hate America

[mfrank]

Given the fact that "unnatural" sexual behavior is practiced by many species other than human, monogamous heterosexuality isn't necessarily the way God designed us to be. Our closest relative, the bonobo chimp, engages in sexual behaviour that is, to put it mildly, considerable different than ours.

Re:I hate America

[Rycross]

First of all, realize that this game has been the target of parents and politicians for a long time. This isn't suddenly a new thing that popped up just because some sex was added. The sex just gave them something new to rant about, and a new angle from which to attack the game.

That and its a minority of people. I doubt theres any parent that suddenly decides the game is innapropriate for their children given the new content. Those who own the game are likely to continue to own the game (except for the irresponsible parents who suddenly start taking an interest in their child's game collection). This is just a very vocal minority trying to push an agenda against Rockstar and the game industry. Unfortunately, despite the fact that a lot of us Americans aren't idiots, the idiots are the one who always seem to get on TV and the news.

Second, as some other point out, its not necessarily the sex, but the precedence that you can place stuff in a game, then lock it, fully expecting it to be unlocked later, just so you can push it to a younger crowd. For GTA, it doesn't really matter all that much: the difference between the M rating and AO rating is a laughable one year. But what if the game had been E?

Re:I hate America

[WonderChef]

The Church gives us not a system, but a key; not a plan of God's City, but the means of entering it. Perhaps someone will lose his way because he has no plan. But all that he will see, he will see without a mediator, he will see it directly, it will be real for him; while he who has studied only the plan risks remaining outside and not really finding anything. - Fr Georges Florovsky

We have been given a wonderful tool, as taught to us by the Holy Fathers. It is this prayer: "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner." Pray this without ceasing, with a firm desire to know God out of love for our Father, our friend, our comforter. Your mind will grow calm, your heart will grow in love, you will refrain from judgment and avoid sin, you will feel peace and contentment and satisfaction, and you will encounter truth.

Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete. -John 16:26

Re:I hate America

[Rycross]

Death by snoo snoo!

Re:I hate America

[Chanc_Gorkon]

I agree. Prophesies are predictions on what might happen. It doesn't mean that it WILL happen. I agree, some day, the events in Revelation may come to pass, but if you think about it a little, it could be when the sun goes supernova. It sounds an aweful lot like what may happen. Fire...Brimstone...it could happen. Of course maybe they are talking about the Earth being put away by a meteor or something. In any case, I don't think one should go and blindly follow anything, the Bible, The Koran or the Torah. I DO try to live life as close to the Bible as I can though and mostly because it just seems to be right, to me. You may differ. The great thing is if you repent when you DO scew up, you'll still go to heaven....at least that is the way I take it.

Re:I hate America

[chphilli]

Interesting. Crazy (IMHO), but interesting. I had never heard of VHEMT before, so thanks for the link.

As far as seeing differences between "true" Christianity, and the Christianity practiced by most people goes, obviously you are right. I know of very few Christians who would claim that they are the "Perfect Christian" - if they did, they would be wrong (there was only one "Perfect" human anything).

The difference is that Christianity also doesn't expect perfect Christians. It calls for us to work towards perfection, but we will never make it, and God knows that. That's where the whole deal of forgiveness comes in.

If you are really interested in looking at what Christianity actually is, I again suggest Mere Christianity. Lewis wrote it to tackle almost exactly these issues. It's not a book on particular doctrines within the church or among denominations, it's a book that aims to get to the essence of Christianity; and it does a really good job of that.

As for your personal sympathies, while I don't think that voluntary extinction is a great idea, I do agree that as a race, we've done a poor job of fulfilling our role as stewards of Creation.

Anyways, send me an email if I can answer any particular questions, and I'll do my best to provide an answer.

Re:I hate America

[gregorio]

For a lot of us we can and do have sex simply because it's fun. No more, no less.

It's not about what you think of sex. It's about the repercussions of doing sex. If you think that sex affects you only at banging-time, then you're living inside a reality distortion field. Your life is going to get affected from the way you propose (or accept, or a mix of the two) sex to the way you act after sex. It's not just about your performance during banging-time.

Pretending that sex is just about banging is the same as thinking that punching someone in the face is only going to hurt your hand and that your action it not going to affect you in other aspects of life. When your actions are taken in a social context, meaning that it involves other people, things are not just about what you think and what you like.

Bullshit. You don't like the world as it is so you decide anyone who doesn't agree with you is a liar.

It's not about liking the world. It's about something obvious: people care for their own feelings. Except for a few drug-addicted/mentally ill people with absolute no self-respect, most people do care about things.

You're clearly confusing me as some neo-conservative bashing people who like free sex. Well, you're wrong. All I am saying is that even someone who is just looking for some fun is going to care at least a little bit about respect and trust. It's like "Hey, I just want to have some fun, but I'm not a piece of trash".

The same thing goes for people who are "different" and "don't care of what people think". Actually, they care. They want to be seen as people "who don't care about what people think". Call them a "spoiled rich loser seeking for attention" and most of them are going to get pretty mad at you. Being "different" is a part of what they want from life, and they really do care about that.

All I'm saying is that even people who apparently doesn't give s fsck abut stuff, actually do. And even for them sex is something special, not just banging.

Re:I hate America

[Ced_Ex]

Just to clear this up: There is no "ratings board" per se; what the ESRB does is get a panel of regular citizens (parents even, I think) and shows them the worst content in the game, as well as representative gameplay. Then these people tell the ESRB what the game should be rated. There's no single panel of "experts" or anything, it's just regular people with no ties to the gaming industry.

I'm refering to the ones who set the categories. So parents might be the ones rating the game, but they are likely only given choices such as the Mature, Adult Only, Everyone etc. categories in which to cram a game title under.

However, it is the ESRB that creates these categories and defines them. So far, as it is defined, Sex is rated at a more restricted level than Violence, which suggests that the priorities are a bit off.

Re:I hate America

[westlake]

Let's see the game is about black men running around smacking hoes and doing drive bys and most people don't have a problem with this

But they do have a problem with this, anyone who didn't see Rockstar heading for a crack-up just hasn't been paying attention.

Re:I hate America

[Anonymous Coward]

Who is the bigger bigot?

You got my vote fool...FBI paper mid 90's says the liberal party was heavily infiltrated by the KKK. You think it's true?

Re:I hate America

[snuf23]

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"

Re:I hate America

[Anonymous Coward]

Randi is still teh fucking shit

http://randi.org/

Re:I hate America

[DLWormwood]

Suicide is for the weak of mind.

VHEMT's agenda, and other similar "eco-friendly" sensiblities, have nothing to do with suicide. VHEMT, while tongue-in-cheek, is mostly focused on ending rampant human procreation. The "Zero Population Growth" movement may be a more mainstream version of what I'm trying to get at. However, to many Christians' dismay, ZPG advocates tends to recommend birth control and ready access to abortion. (VHEMT, in particular, advocates voluntary sterilization programs, something I'd do if I were ever to become sexually active.)

Re:I hate America

[cheesybagel]

It is moronic. If you have negative growth eventually the human race would become extinct. That is like the absolute stupidest movement I have ever heard.

As for the Malthusian argument, history proves Malthus was *wrong*. In the EU farmers are fined if they produce over their quota. Excess food is destroyed.

There is nothing more distasteful than someone who has no self-respect.

Re:I hate America

[Anonymous Coward]

It's an institution

If you're going to do yourself in. Take as many as you can with you because if enough die, they'll do something other then playing the blame game.

It is real and I don't give a shit if you like it or not.

Re:I hate America

[geekoid]

Then change it.

I don't knwoanyone who was appaled, disgusted, or shocked at the nipple thing, and I have a rather eclectac group of people I see and talk to.
However, a small percentage of people are vocal, and they get heard. The people that didn't care don't say anything. Thats whats wrong. One priest in the mid-west should not be ablke to get the FCC to change there rules.

There are countries that would lock you up for what you posted. SO it's not all that bad.

Now, work on changing what you don't like.
No, ranting in forums and on slashdot does not help.

Re:I hate America

[Anonymous Coward]

Changing it means destroying the myths of feminism, christianity and corporate america (for all intent purposes, you may as well convince a mountain to root itself up and plant itself in the sea).

The kosher newspeech for public consumption holds no social value, capital value or truth. All are means of control and all impose limitations that are counter to the supposed goals of each agenda.

Re:I hate America

[THEMEDIA]

Let's see the game is about black men running around smacking hoes and doing drive bys and most people don't have a problem with this.

Let's be fair. GTA Vice City had a white guy doing pretty much the same things. Frankly there aren't enough black main characters in popular video games. Granted, this is not a positive role, but I certainly don't think Rockstar meant any racism in this.

Re:I hate America

[Anonymous Coward]

If it's been said 50 bazillion times, then maybe there's something to it, eh? Nah, you know best. It's not even worth discussing, just leave right? I mean, you are tired of hearing about it after all.

See, it's like reading Slashdot everyday and being shocked that their are still idiots like yourself out there, yet continuing to read with the hope that tomorrow you will say something intelligent. If I had half a brain, I'd tell you to go fsck yourself.

Re:I hate America

[Anonymous Coward]

Year 700 called, wants his silly religious bullshit back. Do you honestly believe there's a God out there? Come on, it's the 21st century man. Magic, God, and the Loch Ness monster don't exist. Get over it. Enjoy your life, for there's nothing after you die.

Glass

Re:I hate America

[StikyPad]

I just don't find anything particularly convincing about Christianity vice any other religion. What it ultimately comes down to is a feeling that it's true. I have a feeling it's not true, so I'm going to stick with that.

Re:I hate America

[Phyvo]

You must realize that the reason why such "unnatural" behavior is found in animals is there is for precisely the same reason it's found in us: We, humans, disobeyed God and became steeped in sin. When we did, all creation went with us. Therefore, it is inappropriate to point to creation and say, "But chimps do it!" Some animals practice cannibalism, too, but do we use that a reason to practice such a thing ourselves?

Re:I hate America

[Phyvo]

Sorry I took awhile to reply.

First of all, do not confuse nature with design. Because of our sinful nature, it is quite natural for us to kill each other and have gay sex. But it is not what we were designed to do by God.

Tools such as airplanes are designed to do specific things when we do other things as we are designed to. We can travel on a plane because we can walk into it and sit down. You can hardly say that walking and sitting down is not part of what we're designed to be able to do.

But, there is a problem: What if I kill someone with a knife? Is that then, not part of our design to sin? Of course not! We're designed to be able to sin (think the Garden of Eden), not simply designed to sin, which are quite different things. This ability to decide between what we're designed to do and what we're not designed to do is part of what makes us, humans, so special to God.

As for history and animals: All you are saying is that animals do what they aren't designed to (a result of the fall of man) and that it is vastly more common in history for man to do the same. Both points I agree with. But your argument could just as well go for cannabalism, or murder, as sexual sin. People have murdered and cannibalized each other in the past: check. Male polar bears will kill baby bears even though they might be their own: check. And the female praying mantis eats her mate after they've mated: check.

Finally, God created Adam and Eve. He didn't create Adam, Eve, Becka, Sara, and Mary. Just Adam and Eve. As this was the Garden of Eden, before the fall of man, everything was working as it was designed to. Therefore, God designed us to be monogamous and heterosexual. The main reason why he seems to have done a "piss-poor job of it" is because we disobeyed him. All the sin, hate, jealousy, pride, greed, and evil we see in the world today is the result of both that choice, and our choices to continue to do so; Including divorce, polygamy, and homosexuality.

Re:I hate America

[iminplaya]

"I'm sure we all agree that we ought to love one another, and I know there are people in the world who do not love their fellow human beings, and I hate people like that!" -Tom lehrer

Remind me why R* should care again

[BlackCobra43]

GTA: SA was the best-selling console game of 2004, despite only being published on one platform at the time. Are we seriously expected to believe major retailers will forever keep the evil, evil GTA games off their shelves? Why should Rockstar Games/Take Two?

Re:Remind me why R* should care again

[blueZhift]

In the short term, this whole deal seems to have backfired on Rockstar and they'll have to spend some money recalling shipped stock and then manufacturing and shipping the "clean" version. LOL, now mom and dad can safely buy GTA for junior and his 5th grade buddies! They should pick up the clean copies of 50cent's new album while they're at it.

Seriously though, Rockstar can still turn this into a New Coke style winner. Now they've essentially been given the green light to sell two versions of GTA: SA. They can sell the safe clean version at Wal-Mart and the uncut, girls gone wild, hentai version online. See now, they can just unlock the Hot Coffee minigames and add more if they want. With the AO label, they can totally cut loose and with all of the free publicity the market is already primed. It's almost as if they get to do the launch all over again. The only ones who could stop them from doing this might be Sony and Microsoft on the consoles since they have to be licensed to publish on those platforms. On the PC though, anything goes. Played right, R* may have opened the door a bit for AO versions of popular games to start appearing on consoles. As for the ESRB and modders everywhere, I think they've just been played...

Re:Remind me why R* should care again

[Nytewynd]

You have it completely backwards. If the game originally got rated AO, it would not have been the best-selling console game of 2004. Most major stores don't carry AO games (Walmart, Amazon, etc).

The argument is not over the content at all. It is about the deliberate bypass of the rating system. I am one of the many people that don't see a pair of boobies as the end of world, especially in a game about car-jackings. Rockstar profited by allowing their game in more stores. The fact that this content was left on the disc pretty much proves that Rockstar intended this all along.

Re:Remind me why R* should care again

[Anonymous Coward]

They should pick up the clean copies of 50cent's new album while they're at it.

It has been discovered that the "clean" versions of 50 Cent's latest album can be easily converted into the dirty version again by shouting obscene words and lyrics at the appropriate time.

"Blaming the modding community is no excuse, they deliberately designed it so that it would be incredibly easy to 'convert' it to the adult version", said Ada Blau-Jobs of the pressure group "Families United to Control Kids".

In the wake of this scandal, it has been discovered that other, more innocuous CDs have also proven incredibly easy to 'mod' into "filth-fests".

This was demonstrated by Ms. Blau-Jobs playing a 'Barney' CD and yelling "Bitch!", "M**********r!" and "Yeah, you like being screwed up the ass, ho" over the purple dinosaur's latest crime against music.

Re:Remind me why R* should care again

[Soul-Burn666]

It's GTA. No one gives a flying fuck where it's being sold. The game will sell, regardless if it's M or AO.
It just means the stores selling it will make a serious profit, while the "big stores" will not.

Re:Remind me why R* should care again

[Anonymous Coward]

Sold!

Re:Remind me why R* should care again

[Nytewynd]

Not true. All of the kids that are under 18 and don't have a credit card can't easily order online, and they may not have a local store that sells AO games. If a major store such as Walmart doesn't sell the game, the kid might not have any way of getting the game without a parent's credit card. If the game is rated AO, the parents most likely will not be buying the game for their kid.

While there ins't much of a difference content wise between M and AO in some cases, financially there is a huge difference.

Re:Remind me why R* should care again

[kgruscho]

I just wish half the news articles I read would realize that:

a. the program has to be modified to access the content
b. it took how long to find and add the content? (it can't be that easy)

Kdg

Re:Remind me why R* should care again

[Dal Platinum]

That's the thing you, you *don't* see a pair of boobies.

To be perfectly honest, the real blame here should go to the ESRB, and their crap rating system.

How you can give an 'M' rating to game that allows you to beat old ladies to death with a pool cue in the first place? A game that allows you to go on a cop killing rampage, to burgle houses at random, start gang wars, shoot at the FBI... the list goes on.

For the record, the idea that this was done on purpose is a bit far stretched. Maybe they had to remove it to make the grade, but they can't have said "hurrr, let's leave it there, then people will unlock it". How long has this game been 'on the shelves'? I bought it the day it came out on the PS2, and the first I hear about this Hot Coffee is now, after the PC modding community got hold of it. And bearing in mind you could get 'nude chick' skins for the previous two versions (along with pretty much every other PC game with humanoids in it), it all starts to get a bit weak.

So they obviously weren't expecting people to take advantage of it on the PS2, and neither did they mention it. So why were the files on there?

So where is everyone getting the idea that this is some 'great' plan? As far as I can see, it just shows how your minds work.

Re:Remind me why R* should care again

[Jaysyn]

The Wal-Mart in my town still has GTA:SA on the shelves. Rockstar also left multiplayer code in the Vice City, do you think that was intended as well?

Re:Remind me why R* should care again

[Antimatter3009]

Unreachable code proves intent? Have you ever coded? When something doesn't work (or you don't like it), it's usually a good idea to leave that bit of code in there and just remove all calls to it in case you ever want it again. It's just how things are done in many cases. I can't see some coder leaving it in there with the intent to unlock it later just to bypass the ratings system. It seems to me that it was probably in there and someone higher-up saw it and wanted it removed, so the person who had coded it just removed it. Maybe he forgot to clean it up later, or maybe he didn't care knowing that it couldn't be reached through any of R*'s code. It really makes a lot more sense that way.

Re:Remind me why R* should care again

[tricorn]

Amazon is still selling it (now labeled "Adults Only"). PC version is #1 in video games, #1 in electronics; Xbox version is #2 in video games, #5 in electronics; and the PS2 version is #5 in video games, #10 in electronics. It stands to reason that they would have sold it before, even if it was labeled AO then.

but i'm sales are going back up

[talaski23]

As a sidenote, stock in Take-Two Entertainment dropped by almost five percent at close of market today, on the news that even Gamestop is dumping the now AO-rated GTA title.

even though the game has already seen it's peak as far as sales are concerned, when it comes to pop-culture and console gaming is there any such thing as bad press?

Even Gamestop?

[sqlrob]

I tried to get it there the day the rating changed. Nope, no way, not on any of the platforms, they don't sell AO.

And they still had the "San Andreas: Get It Here!" display up too.

So they were one of the *first* to can it, no "even GameStop" about it, they were the leaders of the pack.

more popular now...

[Anonymous Coward]

Teenagers want this game more than ever now. The stock price may drop but take a look at their sales results when they come out...

Re:more popular now...

[Trigun]

People are dumping because they're afraid that the company will get riddled with civil suits. I can't wait to see the class-action lawsuit commercials.

Re:more popular now...

[Detritus]

On what basis? I can't think of anything that would be the legitimate basis for a lawsuit.

Re:more popular now...

[snorklewacker]

Since when has that ever stopped a lawsuit?

Taking care of the problem

[Oceanplexian]

Dupes have been eliminated thanks to new and amazing patented Slashdot story recycling capabilities.

Were we ever really surprised?

[bedroll]

I mean, the people who hated this game from before it was released were the same ones who made a stink of it this time. It was just a new angle to come at it. The realists say that the game was already rated M, which should've been good enough. The extremists think it should pulled from all shelves, AO isn't good enough.

I'm just waiting for the lawsuits. I'm sure that some offended conservative group is trying to find distress Moms who's little babies downloaded the patch to modify the game and were sullied. Poor little Johnny.

Re:Were we ever really surprised?

[Anonymous Coward]

What I find funny is if any of the complainers actually watched the hot coffee mod?

They do the business with their clothes on in the mod.

Sims patch was more pornographic then it.

Re:Were we ever really surprised?

[RikF]

And those mothers/fathers should be answering the question "Why did you allow your child to play a game with a 17+ rating?" The sooner people stop relying on the TV/PC/PS to raise their child for them the better. RikF

Re:Were we ever really surprised?

[goldspider]

OK, so the game now has an "adults only" rating. What's the big deal? Do you really want kids playing this game?

Yes, it's silly that we have this nutjob morality police getting in everyone's business. But I find it hard to disagree with them on this one. Parents should be aware of the game's (here's a hint) adult themes that, IMHO, go well beyond a "mature" label.

If there's any game that deserves an "adults only" rating, it's GTA.

Re:Were we ever really surprised?

[bedroll]

I, personally, don't care. I've never owned any of the GTA line of games. I know people who do, but that doesn't change anything.

The big deal about the AO rating is that those morality police people have won to the extent that they've made the game much more difficult to obtain... for anyone. Most stores don't carry AO titles, which is part of the reason why all the previous ones have been complete flops. The rating is avoided, as it's a death nell just as NC-17 is to movies.

However, my original point was that none of this should be surprising. Since the release of the game, and throughout the GTA line, there have been advocates for it being banned from sale, blamed for unrelated acts, and basically anything else you can think of to try to get this "out of the hands of children". Without going into the argument of legislation vs. parenting (I'm pro parenting, for the record), I'm just trying to say that this latest round is *not* surprising.

You have a work that is disliked by a certain vocal group of people. Something brings that work into the limelight again. You've failed before at stopping the dissemination of this work. You use the new publicity about this work to renew your fight against it. Am I talking about GTA or Michelangelo's David? The biggest difference between the two is that David has a more compelling argument as to it's legitimatacy as art.

Anyway... just wait a bit and GTA:SA will be back to an M rating and on more store shelves. They'll just actually remove the mini-game content instead of trying to disable it. A promise to the ESRB that it's totally gone, and that's that. Maybe there'll be an exchange program for people who want the M rated game, just send in your old copy.

Re:Were we ever really surprised?

[drew]

I'm just waiting for the lawsuits. I'm sure that some offended conservative group is trying to find distress Moms who's little babies downloaded the patch to modify the game and were sullied. Poor little Johnny.

I think this guy said it best:
http://www.overlawyered.com/archives/002552.html

Me, I'm just amused by the thought of class action attorneys trolling for a named plaintiff parent who will testify that, while she was okay for her little Johnny to buy a game involving drug dealing, gambling, carjacking, cop-shooting, prostitution, throat-slashing, baseball-bat beatings, drive-by shootings, street-racing, gang wars, profanity-laced rap music, homosexual lovers' quarrels, blood and gore, and "Strong Sexual Content," she is shocked, shocked to learn that the game also includes an animation at about the level of a Ken doll rubbing up against an unclothed Barbie doll with X-rated sound effects, and is thus a victim of both consumer fraud and intense emotional distress, entitled to actual and punitive damages totalling $74,999 per identically-situated class member in the state.

Re:Were we ever really surprised?

[bakayoko]

More like "Poor little American culture," or maybe you didn't grow up yourself yet? Jesus, you'd think it was no longer respectable to help a Mom take care of her "little baby."

People don't "grow up" when they're fed a diet of sex and violence. Your cynical post is more than enough evidence of that.

Re:Were we ever really surprised?

[bakayoko]

Let me modify that slightly to read "graphic sex and violence." Give little Johnny all the books he can handle.

Re:Were we ever really surprised?

[bedroll]

I have no problem helping her take care of her child when it doesn't hurt my right to have access to content that may be adult in nature.

What's the difference? Well, it's that parents used to actually parent. Now they just do everything that they can to shelter the world from things they don't want their child to have access to. Why are they so enept at protecting their children that something must either be non-offensive or it cannot exist?

When I was young my parents simply didn't let me watch movies that were overtly violent or sexual. They didn't let me play Leisure Suit Larry. They were interested in what I did at school, at home, and at my friends' houses. They talked to my friends' parents. They did their best to keep me from bad influences, without suing anyone or going to the press about anything. They also both worked, and raised my brother under much the same circumstances.

Parents shouldn't have been so shocked that this sort of content was in a game labelled for people aged 17 years or older. Parents shouldn't buy that for their kids. It's clearly labelled. If another parent doesn't see things that way, then you should be talking to them and you should tell them that you don't want your child playing that. If they do then you shouldn't allow your child over there.

The only compelling argument that I see for something to be done by the gaming industry, resellers, or the government is that children shouldn't be allowed to buy these games without an adult present. This should be a standard, just as a child isn't admitted to see an R rated movie.

Perhaps you shouldn't assume so much about my childhood from a two paragraph post stating that this entire sequence of events is not surprising.

Re:Were we ever really surprised?

[bakayoko]

Why are they so enept at protecting their children that something must either be non-offensive or it cannot exist?

Who says it can't exist? You seem to be out of touch with reality... The "difference" today is that videogames with graphic sex and violence even exist. My parents certainly didn't have them. You're right, it's not surprising that people are looking for tools to control these media. Your so-called "right to have access to content that may be adult in nature" isn't affected at all by a changed rating. WTF are you whining about?

Re:Were we ever really surprised?

[bedroll]

You're ignoring that the ultimate goal of those who created the uproar over this newly discovered content. They're the same ones who have been calling for this game to pulled from shelves so that no one can buy it. They don't want this game to exist. This game getting an AO rating is a big win for them, it takes it off the shelves of all major retailers until they release another version where the content isn't there to be unlocked and modified. They've significantly changed the availability of this content for me (not that I ever had any desire to own this game) until the updated version is released.

There WAS sex and violence in media when you were a child, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not. Artists have been depicting sex and violence for thousands of years before you or I were here to argue it. This also isn't the first time when it's been suggested that no one should be allowed access to those works. Your parents could have shown you pornography. Playboy has been available at newstands for 40 years. You'd have to be quite old to have lived in an era that didn't have any movies that were considered overly violent at the time.

What's surprising is that parents are sitting at home saying "these products shouldn't be sold to anyone, what if my child got ahold of them." Well, keep your child away from them. Why do you have to prevent everyone from having them?

What's at stake is freedom of creativity. If they decide that pixellated clothed sex is pornography today (remember that the original content is clothed, you must apply a patch that changes the content for them to be undress), then tomorrow they might decide that it's too violent to be widely available, even when marked for 17 years or older. Where does it stop, though? Do we accept that Doom was somehow responsible for the Columbine shootings? Do we decide that Tomb Raider is lewd because it's violent, has a scantily clad heroine, and modders strive to undress her? Do we say that there's too much sexual content in The Sims 2?

What value do ratings have if parents ignore them, then tell the government that they have to put a stop to games that are already rated M?

At this point, you have done a very good job of insulting me, making assumptions about me, and attacked my opinions while adding very little argument as to why yours are right. Your argument is about as strong as any against this sort of content. It's offensive [to you and/or others] and thus it should be up to the industry, resellers, or government to limit it's distribution. I'm apparently immature, whiny, and just plain wrong for thinking that this entire sequence of events was relatively predictable and that parents should be responsible for keeping their children from content that offends them. I'm shocked you didn't slam my grammar and spelling, because you could have. I should've written you off as a troll after your first reply, so I will now.

Re:Were we ever really surprised?

[bakayoko]

Well done. I'm glad to see that you are an articulate, thoughtful and engaged person behind your keyboard. Maybe it was, as you suggest, the grammar and spelling that threw me off to begin with.

I certainly understand your concerns about censorship. In fact, I am an artist myself and an admittedly shameless viewer of pornography. My parents didn't show me Playboy when I was a child, but it was hidden in the cupboard and easy to find.

I also played video games, though not an unhealthy amount as far as I know. I have played Grand Theft Auto and loved it. Perhaps it was a mistake to leave the nudity in this latest release in such a way that a simple patch could unlock it. If so, the designers probably regret the mistake. I'm sure they don't market the game to children, either.

I'll admit that I don't even know what an "AO" rating is, or who it is that "created the uproar" about this. What I do know is that it takes a village to raise a child, and video games that say they're one thing, but turn out to be another, don't help.

I'm sorry that you feel insulted, that I have assumptions and that your "opinions" are different.

Even if I were old enough to remember the first films ever made, some people had criticisms about those films. Obviously those people didn't win, but if I were that old, and writing this, I would hope you'd listen to what I had to say and not just call me a "troll".

What I really wonder, though, is if this sequence of events was all so predictable, why didn't you say something earlier about the hidden content in the game? Then parents could have decided for themselves!

Re:Were we ever really surprised?

[bedroll]

Maybe it was, as you suggest, the grammar and spelling that threw me off to begin with.
It was always my weakest subject, and reading my posts in this thread I've found numerous mistakes. My favorite was "enept", obviously I'm inept at spelling.

My entire problem with the campaign against the GTA series is with censorship. My original post was ill-elaborated to show this, but it was to say that people have wanted to censor this game out of existence for far longer than there was knowledge of this mini sex-game. This is just the latest attack on the game. As of the discovery of this unlockable content it was very predictable that those who were already against the game would vigorously renew thier fight. As soon as more mainstream media started paying attention it was very predictable that the game would be pulled from store shelves. My additional prediction is that a lawsuit against Rockstar is in their near future. They will do anything to stop this content from being produced. I would rather see the market decide.

Personally, I don't like the game. I certainly don't think that children should be playing it. I've hardly ever played it, though I know someone who has it and I've seen him play it. I don't think that they target children in the advertising of this, but I also don't think that they're as exclusive as they should be. Truthfully, I object to a game where the character can beat hookers and steal their money.

The thing is, I don't think that my opinion should be forced on others. I don't believe that because I'm offended by this game that others should be, nor should they be blocked from playing it. If I had children they wouldn't be permitted to play this game. I wouldn't expect to stop other people's children from playing it, unless it were in my home. I think they could've done better at showing the ads for this game only during the later evening. I don't think that the government should force them to do that, though.

This sort of censorship is, in my opinion, the worst kind. It's not a very clear and direct censorship. They aren't being told they can't produce a game, they're being told that no one should sell it. It is the old "If a tree falls in the forest..." scenerio. If their distribution channels are significantly severed then they can't get their content to the public as efficiently and they are to great extent censored simply by that action. This is worse than simply banning it from sale because the public doesn't realize this is happening.

You mentioned being unfamiliar with the AO rating. This rating is comparable to the X rating that the movie industry uses. It means that the game should be restricted from being viewed by any children. The M rating is comparable to R, it means that the game is not intended for those under 17. Perhaps the biggest difference in the ratings is that the movie industry is more active in ensuring that they're guidelines are followed. It's far more difficult for a minor to buy an R rated movie than an M rated game. This is something that should probably change. I really think that the M rating and "Strong Sexual Content" modifier should have been enough for this game, even with the hidden content.

Censorship has actually come a long way and it's won in some cases. Take a look at Larry Flint's legacy (not a great man [just a pornographer], not a great reasoning [pornography], but certainly a great cause [free speech]) to see where he won and lost. Each loss was a win for censorship. Not that I think everything Larry Flint fought for was right, but he did believe in freedom of expression. Every rating system that we have in place is a partial win for censorship. Ratings are good things, but only if they work. Part of them working is the enforcement of their recommendations at the cash register.

I'm not familiar with all of the grassroots organizations that were involved in helping to push this story into the mass-media and congressional eye. I do know that this s

I for one...

[Phu5ion]

am going out to purchase this too-hot-for-Gamespot game. Then i'm going to make little kids play it. Call me The Pusher Man.

Re:I for one...

[Soul-Burn666]

I think you mean Gamestop, not Gamespot

Re:I for one...

[Phu5ion]

hehe yeah, it's still to early for me. :)

the niche community

[CupBeEmpty]

I think the most hilarious aspect of this whole thing is the incredibly niche audience that might actually get this mod. The gaming community while large is still only the people with enough money to spend on a decent computer, enough money to shell out ~$50 for a game, and enough time and nerdliness ot find "Hot Coffee" and set it up. The media frenzy around this has only served o make more people interested. I must say I have a decent system and spend the occasional $50 on the hottest new games, but I probably never would have heard about this unless I saw Senator Clinton making it her personal crusade.

I'm really puzzled

[Arthur B.]

On the one hand, in the USA, you can easily buy a rifle or a machine-gun with ammunitions. On the other hand you can't see consensual sex in a video game ? Urrr.

Re:I'm really puzzled

[tgd]

How do you know it was consensual?

I think the programmers made them do it!

Re:I'm really puzzled

[aliens]

Bravo, bravo!

*Golf clap*

Very amusing low UID man.

Re:I'm really puzzled

[Anonymous Coward]

On the one hand, in the USA, you can easily buy a rifle or a machine-gun with ammunitions. On the other hand you can't see consensual sex in a video game ? Urrr.

Wow, the "I hate America" crowd is all over this story. Let me point out a few things to you:

1. It isn't easy to get a 'machine gun', afaik most automatic weapons are illegal. Even if you manage to buy a weapon in populated states (ie the northeast) you can't carry it anywhere.

Keep in mind, the US has a more 'liberal' policy twards guns because American citizens have a right to bear arms, it came second in the bill of rights only to free speech for a reason.

The groups that call themselves liberal in America today, are nothing of the sort, they are closet communists. The closest thing to a liberal today are the libertarians...but I'm straying off topic..

2. Video games are still considered 'kids games' here, and Americans go out of their way not to expose children to sexual content. It's likely a cultural thing but in this glorious age of 'multiculturalism' shouldn't ours be respected?

3. I don't think most parents realize the amount of violence in Video games. The generation of parents now, are fairly awful and rely on things such as daycare to raise their children rather than a family. We've managed to convince our women that it's better to work than to raise a family, which works out nicely for corprate America, but totally screws a generation of kids out of being parented correctly.

Re:I'm really puzzled

[Detritus]

You can't easily buy a machine gun. It requires a background investigation, fingerprints, a bunch of paperwork, and the signature of a local law enforcement official. Even then, it may be prohibited by state or local law.

Re:I'm really puzzled

[CardiganKiller]

Make that polygonal sex with one partner fully clothed. What percentage of kids have had a sexual experience with the opposite of sex by the age of 17? I'd be willing to throw in a 80-90%. Now don't everybody chime in at once about how my figures are grossly exaggerated, this IS slashdot... don't mix up statistics with your own personal history.

Re:I'm really puzzled

[wannabe]

And then look at the price + a $200 tax just for the transfer. And it can't be newer than 1986.

Re:I'm really puzzled

[Arthur B.]

I don't hate America (USA) at all. As a matter of fact I am even moving there next September. My point is, it is strange to be so liberal with guns, and so puritan with alcohol, sex etc.

Re:I'm really puzzled

[Anonymous Coward]

As a matter of fact I am even moving there next September

Don't forget to keep your door locked and buy a gun.

Re:I'm really puzzled

[Rasta Prefect]

On the one hand, in the USA, you can easily buy a rifle or a machine-gun with ammunitions.

Uhhh...No. A rifle? Yes. A machine gun? You can get one, provided a clear criminal record, but it's not exactly easy.

Re:I'm really puzzled

[iainl]

The AO rating isn't about whether or not the game really deserves it, but about Rockstar's alleged deceiving of the ESRB about the presence of the code in the game. As a non-governmental advisory ratings body, slapping an AO on the box is the only punishment open to them.

Of course, the fact that you can remove the blurring in EA's The Sims 2 and see what your Sims get up to in bed without clothes on, and you don't need to even download a mod from the net to do so, doesn't mean that the game's Teen rating deserves looking at, at all. No siree.

Re:I'm really puzzled

[harks]

you *can* see sex in a video game if you are over 18. It's a rating change, not a ban.

Re:I'm really puzzled

[Takara]

I live in Canada, because every time I step out the door there's a chance I'll see titties. That's right, it never happens, but it could. Women are free to go without a top. Canadians have alot more freedoms like that too. ... If it weren't for topless freedom I don't think I'd even go outside. There's always a chance...

Re:I'm really puzzled

[winse]

I think this stems from our not so ancient history. Imagine the setting a couple hundred years ago: highly religious puritan types that want to worship God THEIR way (not that there's anything wrong with that) are tired of oppression and leave to live their lives in a "more free (as in speech)" place. They get a little miffed about taxes to the king and go all guerilla on the Brits etc. So you end up with a country that believes in shooting people, and prefers high necklines and very modest women (in general). These social preferences have been diluted somewhat, but are vestigally present in 'Merica to this day. The south and midwest generally seem to have a larger appendix than than the rest of the country.

Re:I'm really puzzled

[oudzeeman]

Women in Maine have top-free equity (legally they can be top-free anywhere a man can - beach, park, city pool, etc). It isn't very common though. Also a judge dropped indecent exposure charges on two college women that ran around a block naked one night -- the judge ruled that Maine law required exposing genitals and female genitals are not externally visible. They talked about changing the law, but I don't know if they ever did.

I was just in montreal and I was fairly surprised how strict the rules were in the strip clubs (although the contact dance rules are more liberal that a lot of clubs in the States, there are also quite a few clubs in the States that blow away the montreal clubs in terms how much contact is allowed)

what I didn't understant is bars/strip clubs said we weren't allowed to buy shots unless we were drinking beer

Re:I'm really puzzled

[Arthur B.]

I am a Canadian citizen (though I haven't really lived there so far), does it mean it's my right as a Canadian to hand around the streets topless ?
Hurrrayyy!

(/!\ /!\ mind you I read Slashot
=> male
=> no tan
=> no muscles )

Re:I'm really puzzled

[oudzeeman]

sorry for the typos... i injured a finger so I have to type with one less finger than usual.

Re:I'm really puzzled

[Anonymous Coward]

Uhhh...No. A rifle? Yes. A machine gun? You can get one, provided a clear criminal record, but it's not exactly easy.

Personally, I found it very easy not to have a crimial record.

Re:I'm really puzzled

[stanmann]

Or you could get married/get a girlfriend.

Re:I'm really puzzled

[stanmann]

Then you would have a chance without going outside. The chance of variety would go down, but the odds would go up dramatically. And I'm stuck at work with my wife at home.

Re:I'm really puzzled

[stanmann]

Well, since machine gun tech hasn't changed dramatically since 1960, and older than 1986 has to do with serial numbers of certain hard to replace components that isn't really that big of a restraint.

Re:I'm really puzzled

[Takara]

Or you could get married/get a girlfriend.

What is this girlfriend you speak of? And how much can I get one for?

Re:I'm really puzzled

[Johnny5000]

(/!\ /!\ mind you I read Slashot
=> male
=> no tan
=> no muscles )

Yeah, but check out those boobs.

Re:I'm really puzzled

[operagost]

On the one hand, in the USA, you can easily buy a rifle or a machine-gun with ammunitions [sic].

Oh really? Try to do that in, say, the state of New Jersey. Let me know how you do. In fact, just try to buy any kind of "machine-gun" anywhere. I assume you mean a full-auto capable rifle. There's a federal statute which has made that very hard since the days of the Tommy-gun.

On the other hand, in more libertarian states like Pennsylvania you CAN easily buy a long gun (or even a handgun) in a shop and walk out with it. Problem is, there's this pesky computerized background check that's pretty well assured of finding your weapons-related assault conviction and denying the sale.

Re:I'm really puzzled

[zippthorne]

Not true. The "assault weapons ban"* expired this year. You could buy a brand new one if you can find someone to sell to you.

*oddly named as the weapons banned had never been used in an actual assault

Re:I'm really puzzled

[nra1871]

"assault weapons" as defined in the ban are NOT machine guns. They are semi-automatic (meaning ONE bullet fires with each pull of the trigger). They are defined as assault weapons because they have a folding stock, or a bayonet holder, etc. Bascially things that make them look scary. It bears repeating, since people just don't get it, that these are NOT machine guns.

Re:I'm really puzzled

[goatan]

My point is, it is strange to be so liberal with guns,

Carefull now correct use of the word liberal can get you into to trouble in America.

Re:I'm really puzzled

[tek.net-ium]

So you make up statistics, then bar other people from doing the same? Anyway, it's more like 50-60%.

See http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/fb_teen_sex.html

Re:I'm really puzzled

[JahToasted]

"I'm not a bad sprite I was just programmed that way."

Re:I'm really puzzled

[Log from Blammo]

As the distributors (Wal*Mart, Target, K-Mart, etc.) refuse to sell unrated or adult-only rated games, no, you can't see sex in a video game, no matter how old you are. Or at least you can't if you are Typical Lazy Consumer (tm).

Think about the difference between a Hollywood blockbuster showing on 3 screens at your local theater and the titty-bouncer on premium cable. The former makes lots of money, thus justifying the huge production budget. The latter reaps much less revenue, forcing the studio to cut corners, such as by hiring autistics as scriptwriters. The reason for the glaring difference in quality is in the size of the distribution channel. The pr0n industry had to create its own network of distributors because Wal*Mart won't sell for them.

Until you see PS2/Xbox shelves go up in your local "adult bookstore", AO ratings do amount to a ban, because for a game as expensive as GTA to produce and market, a distributor embargo is sure to force the whole project into the red. So why not jump to a different distributor network? Let's all go into those seedy-looking shops and ask where they keep the video games, until they actually have a shelf to show us. Then the ESRB can worry about sorting out the games for kiddies while the grown-ups can pick up an actual 2-foot purple dildo and gimp suit at the same time as their new copy of GTA:San Andreas.

Re:I'm really puzzled

[modecx]

Take it from me. I'm an American, and I *do* own several fully automatic weapons (and other things related), several of which were passed down to me, many are are not operable, and have more historic, intrinsic and collector value than anything else..

It is decidedly not easy to get and keep a machine gun legally, and there's no gurantee that Uncle Sam won't come and try to collect them one day. And if there's a crime in the area that involves a weapon similar to one you may own, the FBI might drop by and say "Hi, I wanna see your guns".

There's lots of paperwork and background checks. It takes a long time. You have to have an FFL to collect class 3 weapons (automatic weapons, silencers, and destructive devices--which applies to some shotguns, grenade, mortar launchers, etc. Even if they're decomissioned). It's not especially hard to get an FFL if you're not a felon, but it does take a while. It's $30 bucks yearly to just be liscensed to collect curios and relics. If you actually want to buy one of any sort, it's another form and $200 bucks yearly.

This of course assumes that these weapons types aren't banned in your specific area--namely in eastern states and California, Oregon, where they don't want anyone to have fun... Then you have to get signed off by your local law enforcement. Better be on the sheriff's good side. If there's a hint that you're an asshole up to no good, your chances of getting guns legally aren't favorable. Also, should you want to move, you have to get more signatures, etc.

Legal, registered automatic weapons are NOT common--neither are the unregistered illegal ones, for that matter.. They're very expensive to buy ($3000+ for an SMG), and if you should ever need a part, it's also expensive and difficult to get. Collector weapons are very very rarely used in a crime--probably about as many as ancient Japanese swords. Statistically undetectable, needless to say.

Thanks Zonk

[techguy911]

For including that immature and stupid rant about the article on the main Slashdot page. Don't we get enough of that here in the forums!

Good!

[91degrees]

I think it was disgusting that this content was even considered, let alone included in the actual game!

My 12 year old son has this game, and he could easily have been affected by these scenes of depravity. I'll be taking it back to the shop as soon as possible and demanding they exchange it with a copy that is suitable for a child of his age.

Re:Good!

[Angry Toad]

I'll be taking it back to the shop as soon as possible and demanding they exchange it with a copy that is suitable for a child of his age.

Good idea. GTA is, with or without sexual content, utterly inapproriate for a 12 year old.

Re:Good!

[lmsig]

Please please please tell me you just forgot the tags!

Re:Good!

[91degrees]

Let me guess.

You're one of those people who considers Tom and Jerry excessively violent aren't you.

Re:Good!

[RockModeNick]

What a troll this is - if you actually were to think the content in that game outside of this is MORE suitable to a child of his age, well, thats just sick man.

Re:Good!

[Anonymous Coward]

Aren't you the parent? Do you know that the only way to get the content in question is to overtly download a patch?

Rather than demand the store replace your copy why don't you just be the Father here and tell your son not to do it?

BTW, what makes you think the game as originally sold is suitable for a 12 year old? I understand it contains nothing but violence - drive-by shootings, slapping ho's, killing cops. I think you are wrong for letting a 12 year old get the game without the sex.

Re:Good!

[91degrees]

I think you are wrong for letting a 12 year old get the game without the sex.

You think it would be better to let him play the game with the sex?

Re:Good!

[Anonymous Coward]

Umm, ok, if your precious little 12 year old is smart enough to GET and INSTALL the hack, then trust me, he has already seen plenty more graphic things than what's in this game. Oh and by the way, the content wasn't really "included in the actual game". in "the actual game" you just get to see a nice boring shot of the front of your girlfriend's house. What I find amusing is that you let your 12 year old have this game in the first place, when it was ALREADY rated M for MATURE, that's 17+, and last time I checked, 12 is less than 17, or are your math skills as bad as your parenting skills? I guess you don't care about your son running around shooting at cops and having gang wars and screwing prostitutes then killing them to get his money back... but no, as soon as somebody is having sex WITH THEIR GIRLFRIEND and, I might add, ALL THEIR CLOTHES ON, well that's just terrible then isn't it? Maybe you should sell your child on eBay to a REAL PARENT.

Re:Good!

[tolkienfan]

With the sex and without the violence.

I'd rather my kids appreciate sex than violence.

Re:Good!

[huge colin]

GTA is, with or without sexual content, utterly inapproriate for a 12 year old.

No, GTA is only inappropriate for kids that lack responsible parents.

Re:Good!

[starman97]

And you dont think the modders will have a version out that patches the game back to the original state within days of the re-release?

Hell, now you're going to see all sorts of sexual add-ons to games since this was so popular.

Re:Good!

[Anonymous Coward]

As the mother of 2 grown sons, I am horrified that you would consider this game appropriate (sex scenes or not) for a 12 year old! Ever considered parenting classes or maybe just some good old fashioned common sense?

Re:Good!

[91degrees]

Ahhh. "Common sense".

I love that term. It's always used by people with unbalanced views as self justification for their views.

Re:Good!

[MisterMurphy]

Here are some questions;

How did your son get the game? Did he buy it himself? Did you, or some other adult? How long has he had it, and were you aware of the content of the game?

Re:Good!

[claygate]

I wanted to mod this guy but there is no "-1:Bad Parent" rating. You do realise if you bought the game as rated "M" and gave it to your kid that complaining that actually it should be "AO" and not appropriate for him is an absolute contradiction? The "M" rating is not appropriate for 12 year olds if you really feel the ESRB ratings are so correct. I shouldn't feed the trolls. Maybe I laced these crumbs with poison.

Re:Good!

[feidaykin]

Good idea. GTA is, with or without sexual content, utterly inapproriate for a 12 year old.

I'm going to disagree with you here, because you cannot make generalized statements about what age GTA becomes appropriate. By doing that you are no better than the ESRB which states 18 is ok, but 17 is right out for this kind of sexual content.

Every child ages differently. Some are rather mature mentally at 10 years old. Seriously, not all children are as dumb as we like to pretend. Of course the opposite is true, some are still very immature during their teen years. Think back to high school for a minute and I'm sure you'll remember that a lot of reasons the "nerds" would hang out together was the maturity level. Perhaps some teenagers would rather have intelligent conversation while others would rather yell and be obnoxious.

My point is we can't use generalized one-size-fits-all statements for when a child is ready for certain things. While I will accept that many 12 year olds should not be exposed to GTA, there are many that are certainly mature enough to recognize that it is a game, and only a game. It's up to parents (I know, scary) to determine the mental maturity of their child and decide what content is appropriate for that child. Parents actually watching the child play or (gasp!) playing the game with the child, too, would be helpful, to make sure the child isn't misunderstanding content.

When you start to shelter children at arbitrary ages you are being unfair to the children that have already matured beyond them. Parents can't possibly shelter every child from every violent or sexual scene, but they can sit down with their children and attempt to explain what's acceptable in society, what's real, and what's only a game. I suppose it is a lot easier for parents to treat the PlayStation like a babysitter.

If you say GTA is too violent for 12 year old kids, then they shouldn't be allowed to watch the news either. Like someone else in this thread already said, life is rated AO. Parents need to accept this and actually communicate with their children instead of trying to lock them up and shelter them from every drop of blood or every nipple.

Sorry for the rant.

Re:Good!

[mpontes]

You only wrote 15 words, yet you made me stop and think about all my morals and values, the ones I've been taught since I was a little kid. Wow.

If that's not insightful, then I don't know what it is.

Re:Good!

[SpecBear]

I'll be taking it back to the shop as soon as possible and demanding they exchange it with a copy that is suitable for a child of his age.

You: "I'd like to exchange this copy of Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas for a version that's suitable for my 12-year old."

Shop Employee: "Certainly. We can easily do that with a simple modification to the retail version of the game." [breaks disk in half] "Here ya go."

Re:Good!

[heinousjay]

You wrote more than 15 words, and you made me stop and think what kind of a fucked up individual you must be to believe violence is better than sex in the first place. Then I realized I was assuming a hell of a lot, so I stopped thinking about that and started thinking about having some violent sex with the girl sitting at the desk next to mine. Now I can't stand up to go to the bathroom for a few minutes. Thanks a lot, assfucker.

Re:Good!

[mpontes]

I was just pointing out that just about everyone else that commented on this article (and soccer moms worldwide) never stopped to think about the fact that the ESRB considers that sex is worse than violence. I mean, the rating for extremely violent games is 17+, but the rating for games with sexual content is 18+. Makes you wonder about the kind of society we live in.

I'll just assume you got what I meant and were trying to be funny, but then again, I might be assuming too much.

Re:Good!

[geekoid]

The child cuts herself with sharp edge, and the Shop is sued.

Re:Good!

[RockModeNick]

I fully stand by my comment, btw, it's mismoderated. If you can explain how it meets the definition of a troll I'd be elightend. I'd also like to note that I never said if I think a 12 year old should have it or not, only that finding a softcore scene less accpetable than mass murder indicates mental sickness. It isn't innaccurate, inflamatory, or intended to cause disruption. It was intended to point out that having a moral dichotomy of this sort is very mentally distrubed, pretty much right along the lines of 1984 doublethink.

New Version

[kaellinn18]

Gamespy says Rockstar is also going to be making a new M rated version with the "evil" content content removed.

Source It's at the bottom of the article. Most of the meat of it is stuff that's been beaten to death over and over again.

Re:New Version

[Compass]

Shouldn't they have done that from the start?

Or did they expect someone to find about this hidden feature, enable it and generate the noise?

Compass.

Hot hot hot

[ph4te]

Hot hot hot! What temperature is this coffee? HOT HOT HOT! Is it cold? No! It's hot hot hot! I think Clinton burned herself with a decent sized community on this one. It really is pathetic to think that the US (in general) has absolutely no problem with wonton violence, drug use, and rampant criminal activity, but as soon as sex is mentioned they run to the fucking hills like a bomb went off. "Think of the children!" Wait a second, how the fuck did you get your kids if it wasn't for some nice mommy-daddy action somewhere. Come on Hilary, you can't possibly tell me you've never had a roll in the hay... or in the backseat of a car.

Re:Hot hot hot

[Reverend528]

I think Clinton burned herself with a decent sized community on this one.

Yes, and we all know that males aged 18-25 make up one of the most influential voting demographics.

Re:Hot hot hot

[aero2600-5]

From what I hear, the sex depicted in the modified game was a blowjob. I'm thinking maybe Hilary Clinton has some major issues with oral sex after the whole intern ordeal. Apparently, she has something against blow jobs. I bet she doesn't spit or swallow.

Re:Hot hot hot

[ph4te]

I said decent sized, I didn't say majority, influential, or imporatant.

So..

[Turn-X Alphonse]

So they add a new label and it's done with. It's the same game it was last week, the same game it was last month and the same game it'll be tomorrow.

GTA:SA will sell no matter the age rating, anyone who wanted it already had it or knows where to get it. It's like closing the stable door once the horse has bolted.

The "it's for the children" groups will see this as a victory. The game industry will shrug and go "oh well" and the gamers will go "STFU and get over it, it's a game".

That's how life works. Give it a month and they'll find another way to attack GTA, do very little (oh they changed a letter and added another to the rating GASP! Think of the ink it'll use!), rinse and repeat.

Maybe we should start pointing out how GTA:SA is infact a POSITIVE story about a guy trying to get out the ghetto and deal with corrupt officials with too much power.

Re:So..

[Dhalka226]

GTA:SA will sell no matter the age rating

I think it's true that changing from M to AO wouldn't deter most people from buying it.

It DOES, however, deter many stores from selling it. Target, Best Buy and Wal-Mart have already pulled it from their shelves. I know Wal-Mart refuses to stock ANY AO-rated game, I'm not sure if the others do as well or if they were just reacting to this present controversy.

So, it might increase (or hold steady the) DEMAND, but it will also make it harder to find. Since the ostensible goal is to keep it out of the hands of people under 18 now, online stores might not be an option (no credit card).

Personally, I think the whole thing is damn stupid.

Well... at least

[Adult film producer]

I can still kill cops and pummel innocent bystanders with a club, smashing their brains in till blood oozes all over the sidewalk. Good family fun.

jackass

[Tebriel]

"Anyway, the point is that most game developers are recalcitrant and immature jerks."

This was clearly the developers fault the whole way through.

Yeah, screw you pal.

Re:jackass

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah I liked that quote too.

The guy's obviously just pissed that he wasn't recalcitrant and immature enough to come up with the billion-dollar GTA concept.

Maddox's take on Hot Coffee

[Anonymous Coward]

Be sure to check out Maddox's hilarious take on Hot Coffee ... Cracked me up.

Publicity

[MarkByers]

Despite all the bad publicity about this game, I can only imagine that it will have a positive effect on sales, as loads of people that otherwise would never have bought this game are now interested in it, purely because of the amount of hype surrounding it.

Quick question

[BlackCobra43]

When exactly did buying a game rated "M" - for people of 17 years or older - seem like a good parenting decision to you?

"True" Fallout

[kinglink]

The only thing that happened is that millions of more copies were sold because of the Hot Coffee mod, now the price for the "original" version of GTA:SA will start to sky rocket, and then they will release a new version near the end of this year.

Honestly GTA is a game that people desire over many others. I'm sure just in the first day of PC sales, it sold more then the entire run of some of those lesser games.

And the fact they are making a new edition means collectors who have all three versions will plunk down another 50 or so.

Honestly the only fallout from this thing is the few people who didn't buy the game yet but was going to, and the companies reputation is "Tarnished" (oh no, they were thinking of an EVEN MORE adult version of the game? I will never buy from them again.)

Of course the fact that the "Hot Coffee" stuff is the same maturity level as all the rest of the violence, murder and mayhem in the game isn't meantioned in any of those news reports I bet.

Re:"True" Fallout

[themishkin]

I was going to buy this game in the end of August before college started up again. Instead, I'm going to go buy it today after work, not because I actually want the "Hot Coffee" mod, but I don't want a shitty version of the game. I have no idea how far Rockstar will go in "changing" the original release, and I prefer my games uncensored. As far as the AO stuff goes, I think the shower scene at the end of Tomb Raider 2 was much more enjoyable than this GTA:SA clip. (for those of you who finished the game without cheats) And, the graphics were about the same between these two games =D

Re:"True" Fallout

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't worry, I am sure there will be a mod for the new version to put back the Hot Coffee content and anything else Rockstar removes. Considering that modders have completly changed the memory management code in Ultima 7 (u7win9x/u7run) and produced NES mapper hacks I bet any "protection" Rockstar puts in will be hacked within a week.

Re:"True" Fallout

[kinglink]

They arn't going to change much just make the Hot Coffee stuff "harder to access". What that means? I have no idea, probably make it so this mod doesn't work, doesn't mean a second mod won't be made, but it'll be different of course.

I'm pretty sure they said "harder to access" not removal... so they know at least which way to go.

When you have a game like that

[GuitarNeophyte]

When you have a game that features things that the majority of people have always wanted to do at some time or another, but didn't want to go to jail for it or they just didn't want to hurt people in real life, it doesn't matter what the rating it, it'll always sell like crazy.

Oh, and if you can jump out of a car, and let it keep going and run over gangstas and drug lords.

It won't hurt it.

Might even raise the sales of it, truth be told.

Luke
----
Like computers, but are frustrated about explaining things hundreds of times over? Send them to ChristianNerds.com

Re:When you have a game like that

[bedroll]

When you have a game that features things that the majority of people have always wanted to do at some time or another

I've always wanted to do a polygonal woman, they're just hard to find outside of gaming.

Re:When you have a game like that

[th3space]

Personally, this whole HotCoffee row has bred in me a renewed interest in playing GTA:SA, as well as GTA:VC and GTAIII. You know what my favorite part is? Having sex with the hookers...and then killing them. (ps - not trolling, being dead on serious here)

Re:When you have a game like that

[ipfwadm]

My favorite thing to do in GTAIII was sit up in the parking garage (that way the helicopters couldn't get you) and shoot people in the head with the sniper rifle. My roommate enjoyed doing that so much I eyed him suspiciously him when the DC sniper stuff started.

Re:When you have a game like that

[The Ultimate Fartkno]

Lara Croft had some promise, but her knees were too pointy.

Re:When you have a game like that

[steve_ellis]

It is entirely possible that keeping the product hot and in the news was the whole point.

Could Rockstar have done this on purpose to increase sales? If the 'hackers' hadn't exposed HotCoffee, Rockstar could have seeded the idea. As I see it, the only real downside to Rockstar is that HotCoffee was exposed too soon--the game seemed to still be selling quite well.

-se

Re:When you have a game like that

[Anonymous Coward]

That's the best part of any GTA game.

As soon as I beat it once, thats all I ever do. Snipe people or maybe just drive around like a maniac for something different.

Re:When you have a game like that

[icedcool]

Thats about the sickest thing I've ever heard....

funny though.

Re:When you have a game like that

[IronChef]

My friend, you must play Mercenaries then. You can snipe civilians while they are driving. The way they slump behind the wheel is so entertaining! You'll quickly begin causing major traffic jams as the streets are choked with cars... then you finish it off with a block of C-4 which throws flaming wreckage all around. Good times.

PS I have never been to DC!

Re:When you have a game like that

[javaxman]

My favorite thing to do in GTA:VC is steal a cop uniform, then steal an Apache helicopter, then fly around blowing up cars.

A close second is grabbing a chainsaw and hacking the hell out of gang members.

What a great frickin' game. I mean, I love Katamari Damacy, but every now and then, I just have to put it down and go back to Vice City for a little antidote... there are just so many ways to create mayhem...

Re:When you have a game like that

[Sinus0idal]

You mean you aren't hardcore enough to get the apache without the cop uniform? Damn it man. Get the chain gun and get your hands dirty. It makes stealing the apache all the sweeter :)

Re:When you have a game like that

[th3space]

Thank you, kind sir...I pride myself on my oddly sociopathic gaming traits. ;)

Re:When you have a game like that

[neomajic]

Screw sniping the civilians in Mercanaries. The best is sniping friendly and enemy helicopter pilots. Done just right, and you got a shiny new helo to go on missions with.

Re:When you have a game like that

[pyrrhonist]

Lara Croft had some promise, but her knees were too pointy.

Getting a little knee-pit action is okay, but what I really like is a girl with a nice wattle.

Re:When you have a game like that

[Curious Yellow 82]

...All your comments are utter bollocks, just give me my damn 5 points for being informative for this twaddle of a comment and be done with it. Mod me up you knuts!

Re:When you have a game like that

[Tantrum420]

> when the DC sniper stuff started.

Oh Shit! I never heard of that... That's why geeks shouldn't have guns. Is that why there's no DC Shoot this year in Vegas?

I was there the last two years and didn't see anybody get sniped. I bet those Shmoo guys had something to do with it. I saw their 10,000 Watt flamethrower sniper-rifle. Oh well, I'll be at Defcon XIII next weekend. I guess I'll have to look into a bulletproof vest.

Thanks for the heads up.
T

Necrophilia

[Detritus]

What rating would the game get if it included necrophilia? Obviously, game characters having sex with live characters is out, even though pulverizing them with a baseball bat is OK.

Re:Necrophilia

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's make a mod and find out!

Re:Necrophilia

[GPLDAN]

Probably no good for the dead thing.

In the next one, however, you get to beat up Mike Tyson with a bat. You have to wait in line, however.

An advantage to proprietary software

[Anonymous Coward]

The first time I tried to post this, I typed "An advantage to proprietary software" in the subject bar and hit 'enter'. FireFox immediately crashed. Hmm. I look down and see that the word image is 'restrain'. Hmm.

Anyway, if GTA was open source, it would be very difficult to kill Hot Coffee.

Coud AO be good for Take Two?

[Tibor the Hun]

If they have an AO rating for a game, now they're free to experiment with some new adult games.
LS Larry was a decent shot, but this allows them to push the envelope further. (I know it wasn't a Take Two's game, but speaking in general...)

I think a market could use a decent game with adult elements in it.
I know I myself am a bit tired of "kiddified" games that are supposed to be serious and engaging.

Re:Coud AO be good for Take Two?

[sqlrob]

AO's been out for a while, since the beginning of the ratings, TTBOMK.

There is an AO version of Leisure Suit Larry for the PC, in addition to the M rated ones.

I really don't understand how Larry got an M, even in the M rated version. The only reason it was worth playing was to see how far they were pushing the envelope.

Re:Coud AO be good for Take Two?

[Tibor the Hun]

I know AO's been out for a while, but what I'm saying is that Take Two is now free to run with it.
They can say, well, we've already got one AO game, we might as well make another one and see how it sells. They don't have to worry about their image any more...

Apart from Japanese sex games (thank you Illusion) there are not really any Adult games out there. Not even independent ones.

Re:Coud AO be good for Take Two?

[sqlrob]

The "see how it sells" is somewhat problematic when places won't sell it. They need to revamp their distribution to do it, and I'm not sure any console makers allow AO.

Re:Coud AO be good for Take Two?

[Tibor the Hun]

Right, but now that bit-torrent makes the physical distribution needless it would be a fun experiment to try.
Valve did a good job with HL2, and Anarchy Online released their client through pure BitTorrent.

Re:Coud AO be good for Take Two?

[sqlrob]

Except that RockStar is primarily a console game maker. Poorly selling console titles often eclipse well selling PC titles by orders of magnitude. I really don't see them making the investment in a PC only game.

Re:Coud AO be good for Take Two?

[Tibor the Hun]

well, damnit all to hell then.
i do admit i don't know that much about consoles (though i suspect PS3 will change that), and i didn't realize that console games outsell PC games by such a wide margin.

The next step....

[Jazu]

I think we need a modder campaign to put sex in every game where it makes any sense at all from now on.

Re:The next step....

[lurch_ss]

To reach the most people, I say we start with Minesweeper and Solitaire.

In other news...

[Anonymous Coward]

This just in. "Real Life" has been re-rated AO by ESRB because it features the same violent and sexual content as GTA:SA.

Quote the leader: "We first noticed this when we found out there are a lot of people being invited for 'hot coffee' everywhere! This has to stop! We had no idea sex is available to everyone"

From now on, life is rated AO which means anybody under the magical age of 18 is no longer allowed to have a life.

Re:In other news...

[kfg]

. . .life is rated AO which means anybody under the magical age of 18 is no longer allowed to have a life.

Well, at least that won't require much change. Many of them already complain about that very thing.

KFG

Re:In other news...

[zx75]

They already don't in your country, in some ways until they're 21. Ok, tell me this... you're 19, able to vote, drive, are no longer your parent's responsibility and are officially considered an adult. Many of you have left home, are living on your own or at College, but you can't ingest a legally available substance for 2 more years?

My country though isn't far behind, we've got 18s across the board in most places, 19s in a few others in terms of drinking. Too much parenting by the state, and not enough by the people who have it in their job description.

Re:In other news...

[aaronmcdaid]

> From now on, life is rated AO

ESRB has ruled however, that this ruling doesn't apply to slashdotters because they are rarely invited for 'hot coffee'.

Re:In other news...

[Anonymous Coward]

I think it's safe to say that pretty soon "hot coffee" will be an euphemism for sex (or more appropriately, consensual sex)

Re:In other news...

[Anonymous Coward]

My parents felt the same way.

Re:In other news...

[Anonymous Coward]

sex is available to everyone

You must be new here.

I'm a bitch.

Re:In other news...

[iomanip]

Am I the only one that sees this. Rated M 17+, rated AO 18+. Uh oh. Not that delicate year of being 17. Please don't spoil our youth's minds.

Re:In other news...

[Fr05t]

I think it already is.. way back in Highschool (age 15) my sweet heart and I use to tell her parents we were "going for coffee". Really though we were going parking and having consensual sex.

Re:In other news...

[Anonymous Coward]

I had no idea sex is available to everyone. Where?

Re:In other news...

[blake3737]

You just said that sex was availible to everyone on slashdot.
Are you new?

The Sims

[Anonymous Coward]

There were hundreds of adult themed addons for the sims and the content of many of them was a lot more explicit than the Hot Coffee mod. It's ESRB Rating is T (Teen) and it is specifically designed for people to produce whatever addons they want. Considering The Sims franchise is just as famous, if not more than GTA, how come nobody cares?

Re:The Sims

[mark-t]

The adult content that people produce with Sims add-ons isn't actually _included_ in the retail version of the product with a T rating.

In the Hotcoffee scenario, the mod merely activated content that had always been present version, but had merely been coded such that without such modification this content would never show up.

So the crux of the situation is that GTA:SA came off the shelf bundled with content that would have, if the ESRB had known about it being there, earned GTA an AO rating right from the start, but the reason for the uproar is that there is a significant faction that believes that the ESRB was incompetent for not knowing that this stuff was there in the first place (personally, I disagree).

Re:The Sims

[Fatchap]

Surely though when your Sims shower or use the toilet it is pixelated so you can't see their genitals, does that meant he gentials are not longer there? or are they included in the game but covered?

How is this different from placing a wall in front of the sex scence in GTASA?

The ESRB screwed themselves

[AxemRed]

According to their own criteria, the game should have been AO from the beginning. http://www.esrb.org/esrbratings_guide.asp "Titles in this category may include prolonged scenes of intense violence and/or graphic sexual content and nudity." The whole game is a scene of intense violence.

Re:The ESRB screwed themselves

[Packet Pusher]

The whole game isn't violent. I drive around on motorcycles a lot and try to jump stuff too :)

Re:The ESRB screwed themselves

[PaladinX]

You've got to be kidding. Intense violence? You spend a good half of the game just driving/flying/boating around the cities. Even if you go on a killing spree with a chainsaw it would hardly be described intense and prolonged. I'd say Postal is more violent than than GTA.

Re:The ESRB screwed themselves

[lupinstel]

Yes, but the good folks who made Postal had the decency to not show the characters penis when you were urinating on the corpses of the people you just lit on fire.

Who's Responsibility

[kortex]

This is just another example of a really messed up society. Through the years, things that are considered 'bad for kids' has constantly evolved and changed. There was a time that saying 'damn' on TV was completely taboo. Today I routinely hear much worse on broadcast (let's not even talk about cable!). Every generation has had it's gripes about what the kids during that time were watching, doing, playing and saying.

Unfortunately, there has yet to be a generation where the parents take reponsibility for educating and censoring (if necessary)the content available in their own homes. Parents that do take the time to take care of their own are not the ones screaming their heads off. People argue 'What about when my kids are not at home?!'. To that I say, educate your kids! I believe kids can be taught right from wrong. Nothing will keep children from doing 'bad' or seeing 'bad' things once in a while. This is a part of growing up and part of the learning process.

If we look at this graph....

[PhotoBoy]

... we can see how the ESRB and Hillary Clinton operate.

A Few Good Men

[bobzieruncle]

Is the furor really over yet?

I'm waiting for the "A Few Good Men" Hot Coffee machinima version to come out. ;^)

EVEN those in the industry? Uhh...

[Anonymous Coward]

"Even those in the industry itself seem glad that it's over"

This would imply that you think everyone in the industry that's been hit by a huge controversial shitstorm wanted it to go on for longer. .... English, people. English.

The biggest problem might not have been the sex.

[Captain Sarcastic]

The big problem wasn't that there was sex involved in GTA:SA. So you have ways of moving the pixels so that it looks like some guy is banging the hell out of some girl. Big deal.

The major problem was with the timeline:

1. Rockstar tells the MSRB, "Yeah, OK, we have some adult-themed material in this game, but that's why we figure an M-rating to be about right, because there's nothing explicit in the game."
2. Hot Coffee comes out, showing the sex, and Rockstar says "Those @#$%ing modders! They must have inserted that porn!"
3. Rockstar comes out and says, "Well, OK, the modders didn't insert the porn - it was already in there, but no fair drawing adverse inferences!"

It wasn't so much the sex, but the lies that got people up in arms about Rockstar. (No videotape this time, at least) We don't like being made to look like fools, and so the ESRB lowered the boom on GTA:SA.

I, on the other hand, am willing to throw brickbats all of the involved parties:

• Rockstar for lying about what content it did provide and for trying to blame the modders who exposed (pardon the expression) the hidden stuff;
• The ESRB for having such a skewed viewpoint about the difference between "M" and "AO"
• Above all, the parents who bought the game for Little Johnny and Janey who ignored the "M" rating and the criminal and violent subtext of the game, but were shocked, shocked! when sex reared its head.

A plague, not on one, not on both, but on all your houses!

Rating

[orkysoft]

AFAIK, the game had been rated 18+ in The Netherlands all along. Gee, why would that be? Perhaps because of the extreme violence?

Hurricane in a teacup

[AdamD1]

What baffles me the most is that M (for mature) is rated as being for customers "17 and older", while AO is for customers "18 and older." That's not a huge difference. One year. What does a 17 year old not know that an 18 year old is suddenly an expert at these days? Especially since I regularly get my ass handed to me by 16 years olds (or younger) on many online games, I fail to see how a rating system would make any sort of difference to a game like this. If I'm 16, I'll probably find the means to get this game one way or the other.

Also: there isn't any nudity in this game (not even, specifically, in the hot coffee segment where one would expect it.) It's quite obviously cartoonishly presented. I can understand the uproar over Manhunt, which is by comparison very detailed and brutally violent. But this is to my mind one of the most ridiculous "debacles" I've ever heard of. Anyone who assumes that a game named "Grand Theft Auto" is for teenagers is living in a fantasy world. Why it takes a sticker saying "AO" versus "M" to drive this home is beyond me. Does this mean I can make a game called "Assassinate The President" or "Serial Rapist" and expect the rating to determine whether Walmart will carry it or not?

And where are the freakin' parents? Out carjacking?

ad

Re:Hurricane in a teacup

[rfunches]

IMO it's like movies that are rated R and NC-17. Restricted ("R") "requires accompanying parent or adult guardian" under age 17 -- you could theoretically take a six-year-old to see a rated R movie. NC-17 means "no one 17 and under admitted" -- that same six-year-old would not be allowed into that theater, assuming the place upholds the movie's rating. These ratings cite the same age, but one (if it is enforced) places an actual age limit.

M (mature) = R (restricted)
AO (adults only, 18+) = NC-17 (no admission under 17)

Re:Hurricane in a teacup

[fermion]

What concerns me about this is fantasy and how it relates to entertainment. I think we have violent entertainment becuase it not only satisfies a natural urge in some of us to be violent, but also societal tendencies to solve problems with violence. Likewise, the sexual is minimized because of our societal tendency not to, as a whole, be loving and caring people. Therefore, and this is really scary, the sexual is often presented in a negative or violent way, which may in fact be my only concern with this game.

What also worrying is that most teens will not have experience with real violence that can put what they see on the screen in a proper context. OTOH, most teens will have some, if limited, sexual experience that can be used to put what on the screen in context. Anyone who has had sex knows most of the sex on the screen is contrived, while most of us, even adults, can't say that about the shooting.

Certainly many kids have seen a date sort of topless, and nude pictures, but I hope most kids have not seen someone shot or shot someone.

Re:Hurricane in a teacup

[rikkards]

Not quite.
M = NC-17
AO = NC-18 (or is that X?)

Re:Hurricane in a teacup

[rfunches]

I'm pretty sure that the MPAA discontinued use of the "X" rating in favor of NC-17 because it doesn't have such a negative connotation to it (NC-17 just doesn't imply "adults-only film" like X does). That's why I said M = R and AO = NC-17 because anyone under 17 can get into a rated R film and buy a rated M game as long as they have someone else with them who is over 17, while anyone under 17 cannot get into an NC-17 film and anyone under 18 cannot buy a rated AO game even if they are with someone who meets the age limit.

Okay, found what I was looking for on Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPAA_film_rating_sys tem and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-rated). The ratings system never officially included "X" and it was never trademarked by the MPAA; it was acknowledged for some time when the pornography industry started using it, but because of the stigma attached to it, MPAA officially trademarked NC-17 and is the only body that can apply that rating to a movie (anyone can call their movie "Rated X" but cannot say it is rated "G," "PG," "PG-13," "R," or "NC-17" as these are the MPAA's trademarks). The highest recognized movie rating, therefore, is NC-17, and the highest recognized game rating is AO.

Re:Hurricane in a teacup

[Kookus]

The big difference between an 18 year old and a 17 year old is not what they know, but their rights. At 18 you are legally considered an adult since you can be drafted and because of that stemmed your rights to vote. A 17 year old is not considered an adult, can not vote, can not be drafted.
Therefore, the question is not why an AO game is 18+ but why an M game is 17+.

Re:Hurricane in a teacup

[No Such Agency]

Does this mean I can make a game called "Assassinate The President" or "Serial Rapist" and expect the rating to determine whether Walmart will carry it or not?

Well, I don't know about "Assassinate the President" (you could always call it "JFK Hunter") but that other one has been out in Japan for ages ;)

Re:Hurricane in a teacup

[hurfy]

Now i understand the NC-17 movies rating.

It's to prepare 17-year olds so they can buy GTA when they turn 18.

hehe, show em movies before pixels, gotta love America.

On another angle.
Can't the same screen be created in about any MMORPG?
I know some clan mates were getting pretty 'creative' at one point.
Therefore, shouldn't it be rated M with the disclaimer that it may change with gameplay.... ;)

Re:Hurricane in a teacup

[rikkards]

Thanks for the info!

I stand corrected

Re:I'm really puzzled (off topic)

[Anonymous Coward]

No, I am not trying to have an argument. I have just never seen the viewpoint that non libertian liberal Americans are closet communists. If you are willing then please share your view. I promise I won't flame, even though I don't think I will agree. I am honestly interested in your differing opinion. I can't promise there won't be other trolls though.

It too bad...

[Jack Johnson]

That the eunuch that assumptive quote is attributed to is an Anonymous Coward. I'd love to know who said it was and boycott their releases.

It was about deceit

[Shivetya]

The sex part is being used by those trying to excuse the fact that they knowningly did something they were not supposed to. In other words they were trying to trivialize it by attempting to put the blame on the people who complained!

Just because your values or my values do not align themselves with others in no way makes ours superior.

Many of these programmers do act like jerks. Ever spent time dealing with MMORPG developers and you quickly find out there are many jerks and too many have god-complexes. When you point out things they should not do they quickly turn around attacking the person pointing out the issue instead of dealing with the issue.

Re:It was about deceit

[Anonymous Coward]

Many of these programmers do act like jerks. Ever spent time dealing with MMORPG developers and you quickly find out there are many jerks and too many have god-complexes.

"Game Programers are jerks" is as prejudice as any racial slur. Okay, you did qulify it with "Many," but still... If I were to say that "Many people who are are stupid lazy SOBs" how quickly would I shuned and moded down?

When you point out things they should not do they quickly turn around attacking the person pointing out the issue instead of dealing with the issue.

When I'm writing a program, I decide what I "should" and "should not" do. If you want it done another way, do it yourself. That is the real issue. If you find a huge gapping whole in a peice of software, or something that "just doesn't work" by all means bring it to the attention of the programmer, but he is under no obligation to fix it unless he has a contract or is working for you.

Re:It was about deceit

[maxpublic]

Many of these programmers do act like jerks. Ever spent time dealing with MMORPG developers and you quickly find out there are many jerks and too many have god-complexes. When you point out things they should not do they quickly turn around attacking the person pointing out the issue instead of dealing with the issue.

That's a problem with the company who allows programmers to become game developers. There is absolutely no correlation whatsoever between the ability to program and the ability to develop a good game; the two aren't related in any way. But there are a good many programmers who labor under that delusion, and the result is what we see on the market today. For every game worth playing there are fifty that're absolute trash; and even those we consider buying are often so full of game design flaws that we have to wonder what the fuck the 'developers' were thinking.

Our standards for gaming have become so low that we artificially inflate the value of any game that doesn't suck. So a game that might rate a '3' on a scale of 1 to 10 suddenly becomes a '6', because so many other games are a '1'. A '6' becomes a '9' not because it is a '9', but because the game not only doesn't suck, it's actually okay.

If you want to improve the games you need to stop making programmers developers; this approach doesn't make any more sense than it does to make a plumber the head architect for a new building design. Programmers should do what they do best - program. They don't have any business doing design work unless they actually have a talent for it. What a game company should be looking for is people who've actually proven they can design good games; say, the old SPI or GDW crowd, or Steve Perrin, etc. Not programmers, *game designers*. Assuming any of these folks are still alive, of course.

Not that I see that happening. People buy schlock, and rave over any game that's above that minimal standard. So long as they do that any programmer who thinks that he's a game designer will have a shot at screwing up yet another great idea, all the while insisting that *he* knows how to do things right. And if it doesn't work out as planned, well obviously it's someone else's fault - even the customers, for not recognizing his brilliance.

Max

So, this whole thing in summary

[mcc]

1. Anyone who previously thought that the ESRB was a good idea and defended it on the basis that if the industry self-regulated it would provide a bulwhark against censorship from outside has just been proven wrong.
   
   The ESRB has been demonstrated a tool for censorship from outside, as demonstrated by the fact that a game has just been effectively banned from sale in the U.S., by way of it being moved from M to AO, based on nothing but a targeted public smear campaign. The content even in the modded "AO" version of GTA:SA is significantly tamer than the sexual content that which is already present in a very large number of M games.
   
2. Anyone within the Hillary Clinton / etc "blame video games" camp who previously claimed that they just cared about protecting "the children" has just been shown to be lying.
   
   This has been demonstrated by their extended attack on a game that was already "mature, 17 or older only, not to be sold to minors" with a "strong sexual content" label, an attack which apparently only ended with the effective banning of the game. Apparently these people don't care about children, they just care about either political self-promotion or imposing their morality on others, and children are just a tool to achieve this.

Re:So, this whole thing in summary

[BaudKarma]

Sorry, I'm siding with the ESRB on this one. You can't look at the Hot Coffee thing as an isolated incident. Instead you have to take it as a precedent for the whole rating system. R* released a game to the market that had content that the didn't inform the ESRB about. Had the ESRB known about that content, the game would have been rated differently.

You can argue that the player has to hack their game files to access the hidden content, that the difference between an "M" and an "AO" rating is splitting hairs, and that reclassifying the game because of a few pixelated sex scenes is absurd, and those are all valid points. But the ESRB has to look at the situation generically. Any time a game has content that would change the games rating, and that content is accessible to the player, the ESRB needs to rerate the game.

Re:So, this whole thing in summary

[mcc]

Had the ESRB known about that content, the game would have been rated differently.

Clearly not, or God of War would be AO. It is not. It is M.

When the ESRB claims that had they known about the "hot coffee" content they'd have given the game an AO, they are lying to save face.

Re:So, this whole thing in summary

[oGMo]

The content even in the modded "AO" version of GTA:SA is significantly tamer than the sexual content that which is already present in a very large number of M games.

Seriously. Have any of these people played God of War? Explicit sex scenes, and almost every female character in the game is topless or wearing a sheer top. This is in the pristine, unpatched game and there's no way the ESRB could have noticed it when giving it an M rating.

And the graphics are way better than GTA.

The only reason GTA got noticed is because it's GTA, and Rockstar, and "controversial," and people made a big deal about it already.

PERSPECTIVE People

[Anonymous Coward]

This matter isn't over. Geezus, 1 day and people think it's winding down already. Here is what will happen:

1. Rockstar could sue the ESRB for making the decision they did.

2. The game is not now AO. It is now "UNRATED". Get it? Stores could still choose to sell it and it would NOT violate their anti-AO policies.

3. Rockstar will recompile the game without the sex content, re-submit for a rating, get their M back again, and then the game is back on store shelves.

What I find interesting is...

[RamboIII]

...that in the other games, back to GTAIII, you could ALWAYS have sex with a prostitute. You can pull the vehicle up and wait. The hooker walks up, talk to you a while, and then get in. After that you have to go find a place to "rock the vehicle", AND you get more life, so it's encouraged. How is this any different? I mean, nobody raised a stink about it at least.

Re:What I find interesting is...

[sprouty76]

Because you didn't actually get to see anything happen with the hookers.

In fact, in some cars you could see the hooker and your character still sitting in their seats while the car rocked!

Re:What I find interesting is...

[RamboIII]

You missed my point bro. In this game, you do things that are illegal, right? You kill, you steal...so many things. The big stink that is, er well, has been made is that the sex is there. I can understand this to a certain extent.

But if you view it from the eyes of a "child under 18" then you have to take into account that they are trying to protect that child's little mind, right? Isn't it for the good of the children? But these kids have been able to go pick up a prostitue, have sex, and then get out of the vehicle and kill the woman, AND get their money back.

The image in the mind is not dependant on what the TV is displaying, it is happening in the mind, and the mind knows WTF it's dealing with. This is a pointless objection to the gaming industry, and is purely stupid.

Purely stupid, just like what the programmers did in the game.

Re:What I find interesting is...

[Anonymous Coward]

The difference is, you get to watch their antics as they happen. Not just watch the car rocking. This scene is also in the game, when you go to your girlfriends house. You see the outside of the house without unlocking the hot coffee mode. Hot coffee just allows you to see what they're doing inside (well, the minigame portion adds a bit more.. umm, interaction in the scene as well).

Re:What I find interesting is...

[PriceIke]

Doesn't seem that different from The Sims where unmarried couples are able to "Play In Bed" together. Even homosexual sex is permissable in the game. This functionality is available to the player without any patches whatsoever (unless you consider "Livin Large" to be a patch, which it kind of is). This game is rated T for Teen.

AO should get the new content

[Fr05t]

Hell if I'm going to buy an AO game I better be getting what is promised on the box!

Next weeks headline : "Geek sues Rockstar for false claims of explicit sex in GTA".

Quote from the article "Steve purchased GTA:SA hoping to get a glimpse of naked women engaged in sexual acts, but instead found himself searching Rockstar's website for a 'patch'. Turns out Rockstar didn't live up to their promise of hot sex and coffee - the only way to get to that content is from a program made by some Swedish guy who doesn't even work for the game developer."

After-market madness

[Audigy]

The news stories may be cooling off, but the eBay madness has just started to brew.

I can't believe people are considering this game "rare" even though literally millions of copies were printed. Oh well.

Big Whoop

[rk_cr]

Maddox has posted what I've been saying for a while - the change from Mature to AO means nothing for this particular game.

What it means in the future is yet to be seen. But, those 17 year-olds who wanted to get the game now are screwed - they'll just have to wait until either Rockstar releases a censored version (that still has all the looting, drugs and violence), or their parents buy them the game (like parents ever do that!)

Double edged sword

[Iriel]

Glad it over. There, I said it too.

On one hand, I agree that this game was already intended for an audience far older than the children that lawmakers and soccer moms are trying to protect. However, with no forms of penalty to enforce the ratings on these games, nobody can expect them to follow. They're only mild suggestions without any kind of fine for selling to/buying for children under the age recommended by rating.

However, R* is also quite guilty of deliberatly hiding an easter egg in the game that (in America, anyway) dramatically changes some peoples' view on it. In a country where sex is almost strictly taboo, it was purposely sneaky of R* to put the Hot Coffee material into the game because we, as gamers and geeks, have already proven many years ago that if it can be cracked, it will. They can't just unhook the content and expect it to be done, and that's not what they did. R* left it in there for the people curious enough to find a way to get Hot Coffee.

I hope both of these parties can learn something from this. Ratings aren't effective without being enforced and unhooked content can and will always be found, cracked, and distributed on the internet within an hour.

Re:Double edged sword

[Shadow99_1]

The Media industry is the enforcer keeping the retailers from selling to kids. I don't know a single US retailer who would seriously risk the negative public feedback if they did. The media makes a point every so often of sending kids in with the idea of testing retailers over this. If you work for a corporate retailer you should expect to hear tons of crap every year about how anyone found selling a game to minors will be fired on the spot.

On the other hand when GTA3 came out I had plenty of parents coming into the store I worked for buying it for their 7 year olds knowing full well what content is in it (I maid sure they did)... I doubt many kids actually had to go out of their way to get copies, they asked their parents who make no attempts to raise them to buy it and that was it.

Re:Double edged sword

[Iriel]

And those parents should probably be fined for 'contributing to the delinquency of a minor'.

And while I'm not trying to prove you wrong, I have seen cases where a parent is buying Offensive Game X for their 9 year old and they tell the clerk it's for their teenage son at home. The clerk stops arguing (are you really going to refuse a sale because you don't think the customer has another child?), and the 9 year old opens the game as soon as they walk out of the store.

Re:Double edged sword

[bentcd]

It is unreasonable to expect of a scottish development team that they realize exactly how perverted US morality is. I doubt anyone there even raised an eyebrow at the content and dropped it mostly because it wasn't a particularly good minigame.

Re:Double edged sword

[coolGuyZak]

That is not a decision which the government should have a right to enforce. If I, as a parent, deem that my 9 year old son or daughter is mature enough to experience that content, then it is my decision to make.

In a perfect society, this would be an equitable solution to the problem. However, in present society, it is far too large of a request to ask a parent to be responsible for their children.

Think about the children

[AllahsAvatar]

I for one feel sorry for all those poor 17 year olds who have to wait an extra year to play this game. I think its pretty ridiculous that these people are making such a big deal over this. Is an 18 year old that much more mature than a 17 year old? How much of a difference did this really make? (other than stores no longer sell it?)

won't somebody please think of the adults?!!!

[phlegmofdiscontent]

I am an adult (legally if not emotionally). I hear about this new mod for a game I had wanted to get. People freak out about the mod because it introduces SEX into the game. I'm more interested in the game now. I don't have 50 bucks at the moment. Bang! Game gets pulled off shelves faster than an altar-boy's robe. Now, after payday, I have 50 bucks. But I, as an adult, am no longer able to purchase said game with said offending content (which I should be legally able to do) at the local Target or Best Buy. Now, my only options are to buy it online or, if I were so bold, download it illegally (the torrent is well over 3 gigabytes). But that's okay, cuz kids will no longer be exposed to pixellated sex. They'll have to download nudie pictures for free from any multitude of sites for free. The day is saved!

How much does Gamespot's choice affect

[Andrew Tanenbaum]

total sales? I would hope not by the 5% indicated by the stock prices. Personally, when I can't get something at a cryptofascist store I walk over to another one or preferably order a game online (often for $15 to $20 less, at a reputable site).

ebay here i come

[atari_808]

does this mean you can't trade in SA at Gamestop(aka poopystop). there could be major money made by selling it on ebay.

Re:ebay here i come

[coughman]

Some guys are already listing copies for as high as $80! http://product.ebay.com/Grand-Theft-Auto-San-Andre as_W0QQfnuZ1QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ3QQfvcsZ1453QQpdqueryZG randQ20TheftQ20AutoQ3aQ20SanQ20AndreasQQsascsZ2QQs oprZ44498869

THANK YOU ESRB

[Anonymous Coward]

THANK YOU ESRB FOR PROTECTING ME FROM BADLY DIGITIZED SEX.

Even though its a game where you steal cars, boats, planes, and government property, shoot cops and bystanders, rob houses, smuggle pot, pimp whores, beat prostitutes to death with a dildo and take pictures when you're done, and generally cause destruction on a massive scale, its a relief to know that I will no longer have to the chance of seeing some badly simulated non-nunde digital sex.

THANK YOU FOR PROTECTING ME ESRB!

I didn't RTFA

[Anonymous Coward]

So can I continue to play that game now? Or will I have to burn it in front of a church or something?

What was this all about anyways? I mean that sex stuff wasn't in the game when I played it through the first time. And AFAIK someone needed to modify that code of that game to access it? So the game is now rated AO (which translates to high-entertainment-value) because you COULD hack it and COULD find the scene and then COULD watch it in the game?

Damn! Some Americans are a bunch of hysteric ppl without a life.

Re:The biggest problem might not have been the sex

[iainl]

If you really, really want to carry that gag to the end, there actually is videotape involved.

When games are entered for rating to the ESRB, to speed the process up the developer has to summarise what the main points that could cause its rating to go up are, and supply video of them occurring. If the ESRB had to play through all 60+ hours of every RPG it rates just to make a decision, they'd never get through all the games they have to certify.

The whole operation relies on trusting that the developer has done what they say they've done, which is why the ESRB felt they had to punish Rockstar in the only way available to them - as a purely advisory board, fines and bans aren't really possible.

This game isn't hot at all, until now

[shuut]

I was never a fan of GTA, yeah, I know you can used the service of a hooker and then mug your money back after you done, but well that's all it's about for me. Now that I know there's porn in it and they are pulling it off the shelves, oddly enough, it makes me want to buy it more than anything else.

Modding Community??!!!

[DarthVain]

OK, am I the ONLY one that see all this mess as completely and utterly stupid. To my knowlege the ONLY way to see this 'material' is to mod your console. Which no matter how you look at it, is ILLEGAL. SO you have parents of kids (who probably bought their 15 yr old the game ILLEGALLY), complaining that the kid can see boobies and such in a video game, who are in fact using an ILLEGAL box to view it on. So lets break it down.

1)ILLEGAL purchace of video game
2)ILLEGAL modification of console system
3)See video game Boobies

These parents are worried about the 3rd one? How stupid is that. Don't go and tell me they all bought the games legally, as the BIG differance between Mature and AO is the differenace beween being 17 yrs old and 18 yrs old. Somehow I doubt that is a big deal.

So Rockstar left the Boobie code in, so what. No one should be able to access it! Oh thats right the only way to do that is to ILLEGALLY modify your box and alter code to enable it. Most likely the code was cut to get it under rateings much like movies are cut, and they just left it in 'just in case' they were allowed to release it, or they just didn't bother as they thought no one could access it.

Anyway I am sick and tired of Video games are bad and cause all the problems in the world. PARENTS its your kids try PARENTING them for F&@^K sakes. It won't bother me at all that your whiney 12-16 yr old won't be screeming "l33t haxx0r, j00 SUCK @%^#$^%^ #*&^@*" over LIVE every game I play! In short this comix sums it up nicely:

http://www.biggercheese.com/index.php

Re:Modding Community??!!!

[hoborocks]

It's not illegal. You have the ability to do whatever you want to the things you buy - using the mod chip to play pirated games that you bought, that's illegal but only because of the games.

It's like saying that buying a violin case is "ILLEGAL" since one can theoretically put an "ILLEGAL" assault weapon in the "F&@^K"ing case, or walk into a store, steal things, and place them into the case to avoid being seen...

Re:Modding Community??!!!

[LocalH]

SO you have parents of kids (who probably bought their 15 yr old the game ILLEGALLY)

Please explain to me why it would be illegal for a parent to buy the game for their child.

Re:Modding Community??!!!

[Fatchap]

I thought the Mod was for the PC version not the console. As far as I know since I built my PC I can alter it as much as I like, aslong as I don't touch Bill's crown jewels.

I guess you are saying that ignoring a rating is illegal, not sure, in the UK I think they are only voluntary the game industry has managed to avoid the compulsory ones movies are subject to.

Re:Modding Community??!!!

[ShoobieRat]

Agreed. Parents are the problem 99-percent of the time.

Re:Modding Community??!!!

[DarthVain]

Actually you are wrong. Read your EULA for your console system. Both the XBOX and PS2 clearly state that altering their design is a direct violation of your aggreement with the company (be it Sony or MS), thus just placing a mod chip into your boxen is illegal on its own. The fact that people use this to steal games, is also illegal, but they are certainly not dependant upon each other.

Re:Modding Community??!!!

[DarthVain]

In certain states a law exists that says so (law enforces the ratings given to the games). Even if it isn't illegal in your state/country, you certainly lose your right to bitch about it. If I go to a movie store, and buy a R rated movie, then get my panties in a knot because a R rated movie scared my child well then logically I shouldn't have bought my kid an R rated movie. Its not the movies fault that you an an idiot. Same goes with Video games. If you buy your child a video game designed for people aged 17 and older, and you buy it for your 14-15 yr old, and suddenly decry that OMG this is not suitable for my kids.... Well no shit. Don't buy it for your kids. Most repruptable store will not sell to young kids. It makes me so angry to see parents bitching about their kid having something they shouldn't have in the first place but they were too stupid to know not to buy the damn thing for them. Kids arn't allowed to buy guns either. If I as a parent bought a gun, and give it to my kid, and my kid shoots himself, is it the guns fault or the stupid parents fault for giving it to him. Its a silly arguement.

Re:Modding Community??!!!

[DarthVain]

Ok yours was the first intellegent response I got. Yes I had totally forgotten about the PC version of the game, and yes I would agree there is nothing there to prevent you from doing want you said. However, I think most of the uproar is about console systems. Hell if I want boobies on my computer I think I can do a bit better than console boobies. Pron is all over the internet these days.

Also yes in most places the ratings are volentary (not all, some are enforced by law in the US). Even still I find parents that buy games rated for 17 yr olds for their 14 yer olds, and then bitch about content, don't really have an arguement to stand on. Other than to say "I am a stupid person and a dumb parent, thus I have a problem". I would hazard to say MOST of all those games that get into the hands of the young ones, were placed there by their parents. Personally when I was 14, I don't think I had the 69.99$ to buy it myself anyway even if I could.

As I said to another poster, its the exact same premise that if I bought a R rated film that has tons of sex and killing in it. I then give it to my 15 year old kid. I then actually watch the movie myself and holy shit there is boobies, and killing and sex, OH MY! I should then make a huge stink about these types of movies. All movies should be PG13 right or even better G! That my child could watch that filth is horrible. "But lady, didn't you just buy that for your son?", "ITS HORRIBLE I TELL YOU IT SHOULD BE BANNED".

Anyway its a silly arguement, and the only reason it is getting air time is that the media loves this crap.

In truth, RockStar Games should have removed the code before production, however it really isn't that big a deal. I mean are boobies worse than clubbing a cop to death, or screwing a hooker, clubbing her to death, and then stealing her money.... The whole thing is hypercritical and stupid.

Re:Modding Community??!!!

[Lehk228]

funny i never signed or even clicked through any agreements on any consoles. you are full of shit.

Re:I'm really puzzled [O/T]

[NeuralAbyss]

Why limit it to the opposite sex?

Political Capital

[Anonymous Coward]

The issue wasn't about the mod, it wasn't about the violence, it wasn't really even about the rating system. It was a sad deliberate attempt for senator clinton to build some political capital with the conservative crowd.

I guess it wasn't that sad, more like brilliant as most people fell for it...

But whatever, now the countries 17 year old kids who probably already browse the internet for pr0n are safe from this kind of smut.

Might as well add Hot Coffee now...

[anakin513]

Well, if it's going to be AO rated, then hell, I want to be able to buy the copy WITH the Hot Coffee code enabled. Why remove it now that the rating allows pretty much anything they want.

Also, I don't see how changing the rating is going to fix that parents are STILL buying games that are inappropriate for young children!

When life gives you lemons

[DulcetTone]

When is someone going to take a porn video, XOR it with CMD.EXE from XP, and post the resulting mess on BitTorrent as the key file which "unlocks pornographic content slyly shipped with Windows". We could demand a rating sticker on the OS and have it pulled from mainstream distribution.

tone

The Sims

[themishkin]

Hey, I don't know what expansion it was, but I remember one of my friends showing me The Sims Hot Date or something like that. If you go all the way with the girl, your characters end up back at your place, where they hop into bed and kinda move around for a little while, then the guy falls asleep very quickly. Rather realistic for an EA game. I thought it was hilarious, but who would have thought that the Sims would have sexual content? Shall we call Hillary about that one? I can think of at least 10 other games she seems to have overlooked in her ESRB warmongering...

Who screwed who??

[Anonymous Coward]

"[Rockstar] TOTALLY screwed the modding community, as far as I am concerned. Because they could have just removed the content."

Er, it seems to me that the modding community screwed the modding community. If they hadn't released the mod in the first place, how could the content (hidden or not) have reflected badly on the modding community?

Grand Theft Elections: Ohio Edition

[bmasel]

You drive around picking up voting machines in Black precincts, and collecting rare coins...

The hidden content allows you to tweak other players scores.

Re:Grand Theft Elections: Ohio Edition

[Retired Replicant]

Nah, a game simulating what it's like to be a delusional, Bush-hating, sore-loser liberal doesn't sound like much fun to me.

What's to stop this from happening again?

[Anonymous Coward]

What's really scary is, what if a modder deletes some textures or changes the color schemes of a character and it ends up that they appear naked? Does that mean that the content was in the game all along and that the game must now receieve an AO rating?

Or even worse, they just change the textures/graphics with their own, like nude patches for various games out today.

I understand that GTA:SA had the content on the disc but from their standpoint, it was not accessable by the end user without modifications to the software.

It's pretty much bullshit if you ask me.

make love, not war.

[Anonymous Coward]

What kind of a sick and twisted society do we live in?

I can buy a game that allows killing of police, with its main selling point being content with extreme blood, violence and gore... and that is "ok" - even sanctioned and admired.

but the natural and good act of sex is treated with shock, disdain and ostracism.

As a society, we have it completely and utterly backwards!
The sex game should be "ok".
It is the violence game that should be banned!
Exposure violence only makes people learn contempt for people.

and i've seen enough of people killing people to last a lifetime.

when will we ever learn?

The question is

[Anonymous Coward]

Can a bayesian spam filter play GTA?

Can I just say this about Mrs. Vance?

[GPLDAN]

I would like to have some Hot Hot something with that MILF. Ouch.

Patricia, call me baby.

http://www.esrb.org/about_newsletters.asp

Re:Can I just say this about Mrs. Vance?

[Winterblink]

Wow. I'd let her rate my content anyday.

Re:Can I just say this about Mrs. Vance?

[GPLDAN]

I found another one. Not as flattering, but not bad.

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/TECH/fun.games/07/19/g rading.games.ap/

Mod parent FUNNY

[Anonymous Coward]

That's some hilarious stuff

Quicky rant about the rating change

[Felinoid]

Rated M (or Mature) means what? Adults only right?
What the hell dose AO mean then? Ohh Adults Only?
Isn't that redundent?

Ok I admit I never got why we have R and X movie ratings. They basicly mean the same thing.
The ratings are there to tell us if the entertainment is kid friendly and how kid friendly it is (or isn't)
M pritty much says it.. Not kid friendly in any way what so ever if you buy it for your kid it's your own fault.

AO means what then? Not kid friendly? Wait then Mature IS kid friendly?
Ohh right so a 17 year old teenager can play GTA with all the violence and none of the sex but add some sex into it and WOOH.

By the time I was 17 I didn't need some stupid video game (or movie) to show me what sex was like. However even at the age of 35 my only exposure to extream violence is movies, TV and video games.

Why 17? Well at age 18 your legally an adult and well... Hay if AO truely means adults only then surely someone only one year younger could play the lower rating of M right?

In closing, The Freaking Game was already labled for adults with the "Mature" rating. It already had all the violence needed to justify not getting it for kids. If that didn't justify an AO rating the sex certenly didn't.

cry babies

[zenst]

What a pointless story realy, basicly ALOT of games/software etc etc etc have unused code/content. Some are called easter egg's and some are called cheats.

But to have to modify or change your system to run this code/copntent that is not otherwise available is basicly saying. I breached the software liscience of this program and now I want the company to suffer due to me breaching said agreement.

Oh and you do agree to a lic for any software. But for the game to be rereated due to external modifying is just sad, hell in a harry potter book on a certain page you can read every 11th character and spell wanker race's and other more ruder words and I dont see that getting reavaluated due to me modifying the content.

ANyhow I look forwards to the GTA:SA Directors cut were the devolopers dont bend over to the ratings boards and go straight for the 25+ market with the GTA:SA attack of the killer cum-sluts :D.

This whole thing is just stupid.

[Ariannus]

This has been bugging me ever since the story first came out, and while I am sure other people have said it before, I think it needs to be said again. First of all it is an M rated game, anybody not old enough to see the scenes shouldn't be playing the game. Secondly, the scenes were cut from the game, they weren't intended as an easter egg to unlock in the game. The scenes were disabled and it took a hack to make them available. As to why the code was left in, there are a few simple explanations: 1. The programmer was lazy and it was quicker / easier to disable the scenes that to remove the code. (It may have even been originally written to be easily disabled in case it was cut.) 2. Deleting the code caused some random bug that was too difficult to fix. 3. The decision to cut the scenes was made shortly before the game went into production and they wanted to make as few changes to the code as possible. This whole thing has been blown ridicously out of proportion. The bottom line is that parents need to read the rating and the game description on the box. If they still are not sure then they need to go to Google and search for (NAME_OF_GAME review). There is also the possibility that oh I don't know they could be a responsible parent and just tell the kid "No you are too young to play this game. Maybe you can get it when you are older."

Sex is more evil than violance

[Mr Guy]

Think about it. How much violence do you really think there'd be without sex?

Causes of all male violence
1) Man wants sex, doesn't get it
2) Man has sex, is disturbed by it
3) Man wants (land/money/power) to get sex
4) Man has sex, feels need to protect (land/money/power) in order to get more sex
5) Man has sex, wants to get rid of woman to have sex with someone else
6) Man has sex with man, other men find out (who secretly want to have sex with men too -- the men who want sex with women are glad there's less competition)

On the other hand, women are violent because there's friggin nuts. My anniversery is in two weeks... four years...

Re:Sex is more evil than violance

[tgrimley]

Pretty much all those resulting feelings are from the ridiculous views they'd been taught on sex from the beginning. Granted, some of those urges (protecting property) are probably inate, the violent response could easily be toned down through a more ambivalent view of sexuality.

When "Blackwell' is in your car...

[bmasel]

you get to change the rules.

So unlock it!

[tgibbs]

Now that the game has been rated AO, what does Rockstar gain by leaving out the explicit content? Why not make "Hot Coffee" an official configuration option (maybe after completing the game once)? Or they could provide an option for Sims-style pixelation.

This just in...

[DoctorBubba]

...Electronic Arts has announced that it is changing the rating on "Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban" video game to "AO". Company spokesperson Richard Butz revealed that game programmers inserted various "vulgarities" in its code. According to Butz, "there are comments in the game's source code which are just shocking--four letter words and everything. Totally unfit for minors. Also, there is one portion of the code which looks kinda like a pixellated representation of two people engaging in a lewd act. These programmers are totally irresponsible, exposing children to this sort of smut."

Hahaha...

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously. I'm from Europe and this whole FUBAR but entertaining story makes me believe that americans have a serious problem with sex.

I'll see you guys in a whole different light from now on.

P.S.: Penis!!! ... uhm.. VAGINA!!!! ...ermm BOOOHH!!! hahaha

TV vs. GTA

[Anonymous Coward]

Can someone exlain this to me: Last night i was watching "That 70's show" with i belive is teen orianted program and sow a trailer for "Devils Rejects" during a comershal brake. 30 second trailer shows women raped, burned alive, people shot and cut apart. Now how is this aceptoble when a video game that you can not buy unless you are 17, and then have to go online, find a mod, download that mod, in order to to see digitaly rendered and not wery realistic simulated sex sine.

Make War not Love

[draxredd]

seems more appropried a motto than "in god we trust" a little more everyday.

Re:Make War not Love

[Anonymous Coward]

I totally agree with this. Aside from the fact that its ridiculous to blame a game for a mod, no one seems to mind that you can just walk up to any random person on the street and stab him in the gullet, or blow his head off. That's fine, happens all the time. But a little explicit sex? OH NO! That is improper! People ever have sex! My eyes are burning out of their head! My children are now going to be perverts with no chance for a happy life. THEY'RE DOOMED.

Idiots.

Here's one...

[KingSkippus]

Here's one of many. You can catch it tomorrow (Saturday) night at 11:40pm in high definition, if you want to.

Just Imagine

[uberjoe]

With all the bruhaha over the explicit sex act between consenting adults, Just imagine the fuss Clinton would have made if the sex depicted in the game was homosexual. Because we all know that the only thing worse that normal healthy sexual intercourse between consenting adults is normal healthy consenting adults who happen to be of the same gender engaging in sexual intercourse.

Instead of raising homicidial carjackers we could end up raising a whole generation of (gasp) gay people!

I don't hate America

[robyannetta]

When will these jackass lawmakers learn that the only reason they're here -- is because of sex!!!

Re:I don't hate America

[StikyPad]

You mean their parents...

SICK! Don't ever say anything like that again.

Now if you'll excuse me, I've got to get back to the wanton violence of Bible Blaster. "Convert the heathens!"

ESRB, you missed a few games

[Anonymous Coward]

The Sims 1 & 2 -- Only takes a few minor patches to make these game pornographic, and theyre some of the most popular games of all time.

Leisure Suit Larry -- This whole series of games ranges from semi-erotic to pornographic.

Doom/quake/halflife/unreal -- It is a simple matter for anyone who wants to to create x-rated skins for these 1st-person shooters & share them on the internet.

There are several hacked versions of Super Mario Brothers, including ones which feature racial slurs, sexual content, and increased violence & gore.

Legitimate lawsuit?

[blueZ3]

This is America... and that's an oxymoron here. We ain't got nunna those.

Nothing to do with the game

[OnARantAgain]

This is nothing more than politicians stroking their constituents by condemning something easily condemned.

Infotainer (aka any mainstream Reporter) seeking ratings sound-bite: Senator, what is your stance on Porn in video games?

Democratic Leach (aka person of low moral fiber not smart enough to become a lawyer, or gutsy enough to openly break the law, aka any politician): Why yes, Mrs. Infotainer, I am. I am against all things obviously controversial, unless the latest People magazine poll indicates my core voting public may be for it, in which case I will answer in vague double-talk until I have time to spend public money on polls to see what my stance should be.

Infotainer: Do you have an opinion on the scene itself?

Democratic Leach: Oh, goodness no. Mother and me play canasta at the weekends, so I'm so out of touch I'm not even sure what we're discussing. But rest assured I'll pressure whatever spineless, equally clueless government body who I'll blame for this catastrophe into proceeding with whatever gets you and the rest of the confused sheep that make up the bulk of voting America off of my back as quickly as possible.

Obscure translation, unfettered by bitter cynicism: just more meat for the Machine.

-----

Me, a cynic? Never!

Make all games have AO Rating

[Tazzy531]

Basically, the adults only part was only available after a post delivery hack/mod. Why doesn't someone mod games and release it to the press to show that any game could potentially be adults only?

Turn the Chinese army in BattleField2 into naked Playboy bunnies. Turn the cheerleaders in Madden into naked Playboy bunnies. Turn the characters in some Disney game into naked Playboy bunnies. Turn the Tetris pieces into ... you guessed it .. naked playboy bunnies. You get the gist of it...

The issue that the general public is not understanding is that post-delivery mods can transform any game into a new game.

Re:Make all games have AO Rating

[BinLadenMyHero]

Except that the content was already in the game, the mod just enabled it.

AO vs. M

[Anonymous Coward]

The AO rating will never catch on, it's just there to make the M rating look less extreme. "M" sounds nice and fuzzy, and parents don't really know what it means, which is good for gaming business.

In the short term, anyway.

1up doesn't get it

[LKM]

"[Rockstar] TOTALLY screwed the modding community, as far as I am concerned. Because they could have just removed the content. They tried to get cute and leave it in. In my experience that sort of thing is always deliberate.

This is just stupid. It's obvious that taking it out completely takes more time than just not calling it from the code. If they had "just removed the content", they would have had to re-test the code since any other part relied on any of the parts removed. It's highly unlikely that they kept it in as a practical joke.

Re:1up doesn't get it

[Chanc_Gorkon]

You know....removing the code sounds like a major pain, but if I had done something similar, I would have removed the code and retested. Why? It's TOO easy to get sued now adays.

One thing I did notice....W did not say anything about it. Why? Because he, like myself, probably did not see a bit of difference between M and AO. Also, it's NOT A BIG DEAL!

Re:1up doesn't get it

[LKM]

You know....removing the code sounds like a major pain, but if I had done something similar, I would have removed the code and retested. Why? It's TOO easy to get sued now adays.

Yeah, but on the other hand, who in his right mind expects two clothed polygon people humping each other being a problem in a game where you can shoot policemen and run over prostitues after having had sex with them?

*Sigh* I suck at proofreading...

[DLWormwood]

Christian are now political savvy and powerful in post-Cold War American, it's little wonder that our culture is starting to "self-fulfill" the prophesies in the book. America's constant strife with Middle Eastern countries (and backing of Isreal)

Should read....

Christian are now politically savvy and powerful in post-Cold War America, it's little wonder that our culture is starting to "self-fulfill" the prophesies in the book. America's constant strife with Middle Eastern countries (and backing of Israel)

Console versions too?

[DoctorBubba]

Pardon my ignorance, but doesn't the mod only apply to the PC version? Is it even POSSIBLE to access the Hot Coffee content on the console versions?--And if not, then why would the console versions be changed to "AO"?

Re:Console versions too?

[Ariannus]

No the code is there in the console versions. I saw somewhere about a mod for the xbox (it may have requiered a modchip) and I think there are now codes for the gameshark / action replay devices that enable it.

Free speech, eh?

[Mr. Underbridge]

On the other hand you can't see consensual sex in a video game ? Urrr.

Yes you can. I, as an old man, have the same right to go buy it now as I did before. Seriously, the big deal is that now you have to be 18 to buy it and not 17? Wow, that's terrible!

On the other hand, in Europe, many kinds of speech that aren't "correct" are banned. Now who has a free speech problem?

Re:Free speech, eh?

[MacJedi]

Sure you have the same right as before.

Now try and find a store that is actually carrying the title...

Re:Free speech, eh?

[Anonymous Coward]

On the other hand, in Europe, many kinds of speech that aren't "correct" are banned. Now who has a free speech problem?

I love void comparisons. Not that I doubt this one can be true, but could you care to provide examples?

Re:Free speech, eh?

[Mr. Underbridge]

Now try and find a store that is actually carrying the title...

That's the store's right, to carry whatever material they deem appropriate.

Re:Free speech, eh?

[mpontes]

On the other hand, in Europe, many kinds of speech that aren't "correct" are banned. Now who has a free speech problem?

Not in my country, and last time I checked, it was part of the European Union. Are you just pulling that out of your ass to troll or are you actually that ignorant?
How the hell was this modded up? I can't belive mods don't check simple facts anymore before modding things up. It's amazing, as long as you sound like you know what you're talking about, you'll get modded Informative or Insightful on Slashdot, even if you're just making shit up.

Re:Free speech, eh?

[Nasarius]

On the other hand, in Europe, many kinds of speech that aren't "correct" are banned. Now who has a free speech problem?

Oh no, you can't hold Nazi rallies in Germany! What a stupid, ignorant comparison.

Re:Free speech, eh?

[Anonymous Coward]

THAT'S THE POINT. What good is the "right" if you technically possess it but a group of cynical or uptight individuals render it meaningless by putting political, legal, and economic pressure on the producers and distributors of the content you have the "right" to view?

Re:The biggest problem might not have been the sex

[plutonium83]

This is the only comment you need to read in this whole article.

No, it didn't

[Safety Cap]

All the stores (Best Buy, Circuit City, Gamestop, CompUSA) all pulled the game the day the ratings change was announced.

How is this any different than the Sims?

[Anonymous Coward]

You can patch The Sims so that all the characters appear nude, and make them have sex.
There are even mods so that you can have sex with children.
Not something you'd be exposed to in normal play, but the capability is there.
What's the difference?

Re:How is this any different than the Sims?

[DragonTHC]

the sex was put there by rockstar.

Re:How is this any different than the Sims?

[Anonymous Coward]

hot date & sims 2 both have sex in them. Right out of the box. Youll need to do some patching to eliminate the blur... but hows that any different than doing some patching to enable the hot coffee mini game?

Re:How is this any different than the Sims?

[Anonymous Coward]

Apparently It's not different:

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/07/22/news_61296 09.html?part=rss&tag=gs_news&subj=6129609

Re:I'm really puzzled [O/T]

[Fastball]

Why limit it to the opposite sex?

Because that's what happens in the game. Unless there was a Cold Coffee mod I don't know about that allowed you to unlock the scene where C.J. bangs a homie in the ass.

Why are we even paying attention to this?

[fahrvergnugen]

Fact: The developers at Rockstar thought that it might be fun to include a sex mini-game. Fact: This mini-game was built, but ultimately scrapped. Maybe this was because it pushed the game over the line with the ESRB, or maybe it's because the mini-game is not really funny and not very fun. Fact: There is no sex mini-game included in Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas as shipped.

I repeat: There is no sex mini-game included in Grant Theft Auto: San Andreas as shipped. I've played the entire game, end to end, and while it does let me beat people down with a giant black dildo if I feel so inclined, the sex mini-game is just not in there.

That is not to say that the code for the sex mini-game is not on the DVD, but it is not in the game. This is an important distinction. If the mini-game is present on the DVD, but there is no way to access it while playing the game as shipped, then that sequence isn't really part of the game, any more than a deleted scene on a DVD is part of the movie.

It is common practice in software projects to strip out features as the release date approaches. Maybe the feature just doesn't work right, or it does work right but isn't really as good as everyone thought it would be, or maybe it introduces bugs, or maybe it pisses off media decency watchdogs. For whatever reason, features are disabled. This is usually done not by deleting the feature from the project entirely, but rather by deleting the calls that activate it. Deleting large chunks of code carries a huge risk in the later stages of software development, because it's easy to make a mistake that will break the build. If someone makes a mistake and deletes the wrong class file when they're taking out un-used code for something like, say, a sex mini-game that management has decided not to include in the final product, they could all too easily cause just such a problem.

Breaking the build is a Very Bad Thing, especially in gigantic projects like Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, which cost $50 million to develop and employed hundreds of people. At the end of the software development cycle, new builds of the program are made every night. These are copied and sent out to teams of testers, sometimes hundreds of them, who run through the program and look for bugs. These bugs get fixed, a new build is made that night incorporating those bugfixes, and the cycle continues.

If the build is broken, nobody works. If the testers don't get a new build, then they can't find new bugs, because they're still running into the old ones. If the developers don't get a new build, they can't fix other bugs, because they don't know how their changes will interact with changes they've already made. Everyone winds up sitting idle, getting some sleep, talking to their significant others, and maybe realizing that working 20 hours a day for 7 days a week at substandard wages sucks. Maybe they begin to question their sexless and empty lives, and maybe they start chatting with each other about how a union would fix all this mess before their jobs are shipped off to China, and it's too late to do anything about it.

Morale suffers, the whole project slips, deadlines are missed, analysts revise your publisher's stock downwards, and you suddenly need a new job.

So instead of making a major change like deleting the entire mini-game, it's much safer to make a small change, like deleting the parts of code that start the mini-game. If there is no way to invoke certain parts of a program, then those parts may as well not exist. This is so common in software projects, both for business and entertainment programs, that the current controversy surrounding Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas seems from the perspective of the software world like a tempest in a teapot. Grand Theft Auto III had code for a half-completed fourth island on the DVD. Knights of the Old Republic II, which is notorious for its terrible and seemingly unfinished ending, had the voice acting and artwork for

Re:Why are we even paying attention to this?

[fonetik]

Another perfect example to prove this case is that there are pieces left from a skateboard that was going to be included. The icon can still be found for it, but they pulled the skateboard as a vehicle. (Read more about it here: http://www.gtasanandreas.net/weapons/) And there is even a mod to allow you to switch the shovel with the skateboard, but you still can't ride it. They didn't remove all of it because it may have caused problems to the build. They removed just enough so that you wouldn't notice it.

But I think all of us know that this is far more important than silly little things like the Downing St memo or Karl Rove and his crazy antics. After all, this affects children!

Re:Why are we even paying attention to this?

[felgercarb]

A giant black dildo? Granted I haven't finished the game, but I've only found the giant purple dildo... Whats the button sequence to enable the black ones? :)

Re:Why are we even paying attention to this?

[greg1104]

Your reaction matched my initial one. I've since come to realize I was wrong. Parents who are hoping the ESRB rating process can help them select titles for their children don't care one bit about the realities of the development process. The clarification developers are getting here is that if a title is shipped with a certain rating, all of the content on the media should meet that rating, whether it shows up in the official game or not. As you point out, this will increase the cost of doing business for companies shiping products with ESRB labels on them, but everyone on the rating side of things considers that the developer's problem. We should actually be glad that this is the title involved in setting this precedent, because the outrage here is muted by the fact that it's hard to find a parent who approved of the official GTA:SA who is then going to care about the additional dirt of Hot Coffee.

I see someone else has already posted a great example of the kind of easter egg that could really cause trouble; don't miss the story of unlocking Freak Show mode in "Happy Bunny and the Carnival Mystery" at
http://games.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=156674&c id=13135433

Re:Why are we even paying attention to this?

[Anonymous Coward]

There was absolutely nothing I don't agree with your post 100% on. Also, the sig about Jesus and Creed ruled. (posting AC because this is totally redundant)

Re:Why are we even paying attention to this?

[Hannah E. Davis]

You've basically just said all of what I was intending to post. My boyfriend's the build guy on EA's Need for Speed team, so while I don't know much about the specifics of the build process, from hanging out with him and his coworkers I've at least learned that the builds take hours to do and are very very easy to break, especially if the game's being developed on multiple different platforms at once. I can certainly see why rejected scenes might just be detached rather than deleted... but as other commenters have said, the ESRB doesn't care about things like that.

I'm just worried that they'll start going after relatively benign games where nudity and sex-related mods are extremely commonplace (eg. The Sims, Neverwinter Nights, etc.) just because said games left children vulnerable by allowing (and even, arguably, encouraging) that kind of modification.

Re:Why are we even paying attention to this?

[Anonymous Coward]

God Of War for PS2 has a scene on a ship where you bang two chicks to get health back. Their tits are hanging out and everything.

I hate to nitpick......

[fallen1]

but your statement is only partially correct. Yes, we can go out and buy a rifle fairly easily but Americans cannot go out and _legally_ buy a machine-gun (a fully automatic weapon) without a lot of background checks, a class III Federal Firearms License/permit (I believe I have the right one), and paying a fee per year to own said weapon. Plus, I believe with the license/permit it goes that if someone uses a machine-gun weapon in a crime in your area the police/FBI/etc can drop by your house and ask to check your weapon plus they have the ballistics on file as well. So the notion that Americans all own Uzis, M-16s, and other fully automatic weapons is highly overblown. Yes, there are a LOT of these style weapons in private citizens hands but according to FBI statistics, less than 1% of ALL privately-owned fully automatic weapons have ever been used in the comission of a crime. Please reread that - less than 1%. That means that 99% of the crimes that are committed with fully automatic weapons are done so with illegally obtained weapons. Hence my statement to everyone who talks about gun control and removing guns from private citizens hands - "When the police/FBI/etc. can make criminals follow the law, I'll consider giving up my gun. Until a criminal, who BY DEFINITION doesn't follow the law anyway, give up his guns I will not give up mine." I mean, why should I _not_ have the same degree of latitude to defend myself as the criminal has to attack me?

As far as the consensual sex in a video game, yeah, I think American prudish behavior is completely fucked - pun intended :)

Re:I hate to nitpick......

[Anonymous Coward]

Regarding a machine guns being used in crimes...
(feel free to fact check me)

If memory serves, only twice has a legaly owned machine gun been used in a crime.

The first time was in 1988 (machine gun regulation in the US began in 1934, and all machine guns made after may 19th, 1986 may not be privately owned i.e. banned) by police officer to rob a bank (in florida or ohio) Any other crime, the machine gun was not properly registered, and was probably stolen or illegaly made.

And since I'm on a gun rant: Supreme Court of the U.S. has ruled on 3(?) occations that the police are NOT required to protect the individual, and are there to serve society in gereral. They are not obligated, and can not be sued, if they fail to respond to a call for help (say a 911 call).
The government does not exist to protect you specificaly. You have to protect your self.

Firefly quote: Someone tries to kill you, you try to kill them right back.

Thats all. :-D

Re:I hate to nitpick......

[Wilson_6500]

Wait, everyone in America doesn't have a machine gun? But, but... I put this code into San Andreas, and _EVERYONE_ had machine guns!

Re:I hate to nitpick......

[wcbarksdale]

less than 1% of ALL privately-owned fully automatic weapons have ever been used in the comission of a crime... That means that 99% of the crimes that are committed with fully automatic weapons are done so with illegally obtained weapons.

Bad statistics. All the FBI statement implies is that 99% of privately-owned weapons haven't been used in the commission of a crime. The privately-owned weapons that were used in crimes could be any percentage.

Re:I hate to nitpick......

[fallen1]

Err, no. Besides, your statements contradict themselves. First you say that the FBI statistics imply that 99% of privately owned weapons haven't been used and then you say that it could be ANY percentage. Unless the FBI is completely clueless, I think their stats are pretty accurate - especially since I was discussing the narrow range of just fully auctomatic weapons. Not to mention that I didn't say privately owned weapons , I said privately owned FULLY AUTOMATIC weapons. There are a lot of privately owned weapons that have been used in crimes, I was speaking ONLY of fully automatic weapons which narrows the field a lot. It is very hard, but not impossible, for a privately owned fully automatic weapon to be used in the commission of a crime in the US due to the fact that those guns have their ballistic profiles on file with the BATF/FBI. Now, unlicensed, unregistered, and stolen fully automatic weapons are used in the commission of crimes - but those that were stolen are tracked back to their orignal owners via ballistic profiles (if possible, I admit there are times when it might not be possible). So, please compare apples to apples and not overly broad "weapons" vs. narrowly defined "fully automatic weapons".

Hey game retailers! How about just selling AO?

[klausboop]

What angers me is game retailers pulling AO-rated titles. I'm similarly angered by movie houses not showing NC-17-rated movies. The results in both cases are the same: it is commercial suicide to release content with those ratings, so instead the content publishers keep pushing the boundaries of the next lower rating, M and R respectively.

How about just selling/exhibiting the adult content, "policing" it appropriately, and letting the bucks roll in? OK, maybe the bucks are going to be smaller because the audience is limited to those 18 and up, but come ON! Is it so big of a deal?

LET ADULT CONTENT EXIST IN THE MARKETPLACE.

Ha

[Anonymous Coward]

If GameStop were smart they would buy Hot Coffee and give you it free with the game.

Unrated movies

[PopeOptimusPrime]

At my local Family Video, you have to be 18+ to rent this game already. The same goes for porno and unrated movies. You can buy unrated versions of movies at any WalMart, so why not AO games? A clear sticker similar to the one on CDs and other explicit/18+ content should be plenty. Except, of course, parents are lazy and don't give a damn what their children are exposed to. Until the day when parents care, ratings E thru M don't matter, because parents don't check.

Are you angry at Will Wright?

[Aexia]

For concealing rampant nudity in a game rated T no less!

I fail to understand why the Sims and all its sequels and expansions should not now be rated M or possibly even AO. IIRC with the Sims 2, you can unlock all the included nudity and sex in the game with a simple console command code. No mods necessary.

Yet no one here is screaming at Will Wright and EA for deceiving them.

Ah HA you think so?

[WormholeFiend]

I'm working on a GTA:SA mod, which I'll call

"Iced Coffee"

It's a mini-game in which you get to dry-hump your dead girlfriend at Romero's.

Even without hot coffee the game should be AO

[spicydragonz]

You can have sex with hookers, stab them with knives repeatadly untila pool of blood forms. Then you can run through the blood and leave your foot prints everywhere.
Also the knife sounds as CJ slits someone's throat is pretty sick sounding.

Since it will have the AO rating...

[CYDVicious]

Might as well leave the Sex Mini-Game in and have it enabled as a feature part of the actual game... No point buying an AO game if it doesn't have the AO content for everyone to access. ~CYD

Re:The biggest problem might not have been the sex

[johnnyel]

The biggest problem wasn't sex, violence, or lies. It was the threat of federal legislation. Take Two does not care about GTA getting an AO rating, as long as it is from the industry-managed ESRB. ESRB did what it had to do to shut Congress up. No one loses here (except 17-year-olds).
The industry gets to continue to regulate itself, Congress gets back to extending the USAPATRIOT act, and we all get to keep buying the games we love. Hell, the industry now has a best-selling AO game, and will be forced to come up with real distribution channels for such games.

Its more programming laziness.

[Agarax]

This is probably due more to programming laziness. 10:1 they had the scene in the alpha and a executive got cold feet about it and thought (rightly) that it would get an AO. Then the Executive goes to Joe Dev and says "We want to cut out the sex mini games." Joe Dev has a date in an hour with some girl from accounting. Would he call off the date and spend the next several days surgically removing the content? Fuck no! He spends maybe 15 min commmenting out the calls in the source and then goes out and has fun. The Executive is pleased that the problem is solved so quickly and Joe looks good. Because if you just comment those key lines out, no one could get to the minigames, right? Wrong. One code savy dude with a hex editor could easily reenable this. This is a perfect example of the wrong time to be lazy about removing existing code.

Pretend I've been living behind the moon

[anno1602]

What was the fuss all about, originally? And could someone explain the US ratings system?

Overblown

[augustz]

Hey, I hate games like San Andreas because I do think they desesentize violent behavior.

Ignoring the issue that killing people seems OK but having sex is not in the public mind, this content is only accessible if you troll the internet and download a mod.

While trying to get the mod you will likely have to wade through tons of actual porn, not just pixalated cartoon stuff.

I mean, this game as packaged, you can't access this content. If you have enough access to the net to get this, it would seem pixalated porn should be the least of your parents worries.

something worth noting

[Anonymous Coward]

gamestop bought out ebgames not too long ago. gamestop was an IEMA-member retailer, and ebgames was not. they apparently have decided to keep it this way, and so gamestop will not be carrying san andreas, however, ebgames will. even though the money goes to the same place. gj gamestop :D

Tempest in a teapot

[Anonymous Coward]

The phrase is 'tempest in a teapot'. Good point re the rating, though. What baffles me is that the 'M' rating already warns buyers about 'strong sexual content', anyway.

you're applying a double standard

[SethJohnson]

And so is Gamestop. Consider the movie Team America: World Police sold by Barnes and Noble (owner of GameStop) on DVD. The theatrical version of the film contained a tame sex scene featuring puppets. In the DVD version, without any warning, this sex scene is expanded with clips of one puppet defecating on the face of another. If a parent had viewed this film at the theater and thought it was appropriate for a 16 year old, then bought the DVD from GameStop's parent company, isn't that parent being 'deceived'?

With the internet's penetration into most homes across the United States, it's become ridiculous for the FCC or 'Family Values' promoters to get upset over Howard Stern or Janet Jackson. Kids are readily able to access much more controversial content over the internet. You can pretty much bet that the kids who unlock the Hot Coffee feature in GTA have seen non-animated versions of the same behavior elsewhere.

Seth

Re:you're applying a double standard

[dmaxwell]

That DVD is clearly marked as containing the "unrated version" of the film. That is all the warning necessary to know that it isn't the theatrical version. I would much rather see the unrateded version and wouldn't look kindly on the prudes who can't handle it. Prudes should stay far away from anything in which Parker and Stone is involved.

Re:The biggest problem might not have been the sex

[generalpf]

If the ESRB had to play through all 60+ hours of every RPG it rates just to make a decision, they'd never get through all the games they have to certify.

This must be true, otherwise Morrowind would have never been rated.

Insigtful New York Times editorial on the subject

[Daniel Vallstrom]

There is a NYT editorial today titled "Grand Theft Adult": http://nytimes.com/2005/07/22/opinion/22fri4.html

They've changed everything

[mc900ftjesus]

Now you have to be a year older to buy it, that fixes everything. I'll sleep so much better knowing that the new version will only include tons of violence but no sex. That was close, people might learn what sex is before they're 21. Thank you Jesus for protecting our children's tender sensibilities.

I mean, I'd let a kid watch an R movie but not NC-17, that's over the line. This is so dumb. Take your Christian morals and shove them up your ass. Separation of church and state sounds good, but it is soooo ineffective.

Lesson learned

[ttrafford]

Yes-> #ifdef NEKKID

No-> if (nekkid) {

This isn't about sex

[Anonymous Coward]

A lot of people seem to think this is a clear indication that society cares less about violence than a pixelated boob. But GTA has always been contraversial, and there have always been parenting groups complaining about violence. This is another opportunity for them to condemn the game. This might be good publicity for the game, but it is also good publicity against the game for parents who might not have looked too closely at it before. I got a scolding once from my mom for having Duke Nukem 3d. She didn't care about the game when I bought it because she probably didn't think at that time that a game sold at Toys 'R Us would have strippers in it. But then she read a magazine article about it. Parents don't always question something their children see or do until they have a reason to.

Ward

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't you think you were a little hard on the beaver last night?

When will they release the AO PS2/Xbox version?

[tjw]

With all this press, they will surely sell another million copies.

What do you mean, deliberate?

[Richthofen80]

In my experience that sort of thing is always deliberate

Then your experience is very limited. Most videogames nowdays are hugely complex. To remove code from a game well into development could mean introducing even more bugs or problems.

Sleazy marketing ploy by Rockstar

[Retired Replicant]

I agree. Rockstar is making megabucks off of selling electronic sleaze, yet they don't take any responsibility for their own screw-ups. I strongly believe in the right of games-makers to sell adult content in their games, but they have to do it responsibly, and take responsibility for their own screw-ups. Rockstar is acting irresponsibly when it sells a game with a lower rating, that actually contains more explicit material. That's like selling MAD magazine to underage kids, and then revealing/leaking later the fact that Oops! two of the pages are stuck together, and if you separate them there is hard-core sex photo spread. Wink, wink! That sure would send your sales through the roof, but it is irresponsible marketing, and Rockstar deserves to have their game re-rated or pulled from store shelves until they release a new version without the hidden content.

It's NOT "R" vs. "OA," it's stated vs. hidden

[davidwr]

If the "R" rating was due to soft-sex, and the mod unlocked harder sex, the uproar wouldn't be nearly as big.

Why not?

Most people who buy things with soft sex won't be as upset with harder sex as people who buy things with NO sex.

Likewise, if a game with sex but no violence had a mod that had San Andreas-like violence in it, there would be an uproar too - because the hypothetical violence-aversive customer wound up with something that he not only didn't order, but that he flat out does not want in his house.

Re:It's NOT "R" vs. "OA," it's stated vs. hidden

[Anonymous Coward]

thou smokest teh crack.

hookers. strippers. lap dances (which are just as explicit as the sex scenes, if less interactive). the fucking... uh... fucking, she is in the game. frankly, the damn sex should have been in at the beginning and the crucifix brigade should have been nailed up en mass ala japan 1650. mere tolerance is killing us, intelligent folk.

Hilarious censorship in today's USA Today

[instantgames]

http://dailybrowse.com/index.php?option=com_conten t&task=view&id=150&Itemid=1

US rating system explained

[zpok]

Ratings are given based on content. The rating should enable parents to protect their children from unsuitable content. DVD's, CD's and videogames are subject to this.

The actual rating philosophy goes something like this:
- violence: sort of OK
- cursing: not good
- sex: GOD NO!!!!!!! AAAAARGH!!!!!!

get it, got it? good.

Games industry vs. movie industry double standards

[Retired Replicant]

The movie industry gets away with a lot of stuff that politicians don't want to allow the games industry to get away with. There are no fines or legal repercussions against movie theaters that let underage kids get into R-rated films. There are no fines or legal repercussions against retailers who let underage kids buy R-rated DVDs. The movie industry does not get in trouble when it releases "unrated" special edition DVDs that add in extra sex and violence compared to the theatrical release. The games industry has been far more proactive about having a good descriptive ratings system as opposed to the simple, undescriptive G/PG/PG-13/R system used by the movie industry. The reason for these double-standards is that the movie industry has far more political power than the games industry, especially with Democrats. It is time for the games industry to demand assistance on these free-speech issues from the movie industry, or else the games industry should become extremely vociferous about pointing out all the double-standards that exist between the games and movie inustries. They should also start publicizing the amount of contributions Democrats like Hillary Clinton receive from Hollywood movie studios, and asking the question why those same politicians aren't more vociferous about the sex and violence in movies. If the movie industry doesn't help the games industry out, then they deserve to be next in line for heavy-handed government regulation.

Well now...

[djdole]

Well now that the rating is AO because of the content that CAN"T be viewed without a patch, will Rockstar be releasing the PC version with the patch included?
I think they should (and compensate the patch creator) since they're being forced to use the new rating.

Oh...and PLEASE PLEASE tell me they aren't changing the rating on the PS2 version. The content in question on that version can't be activated via a patch, like the PC version.
Changing the PS2's rating would be equivalent to scraping Linux, because windows was found to be less secure AFTER both were separately rated. (Both are operating systems, one is just disliked more than the other for controversial reasons)

GJ Rockstar

[JohnG307]

Personally I don't think this is all that bad for Rockstar at all. EVERYONE and their dog is talking about their company and their game right now, and remember: there's no such thing as bad publicity. A fair number of the over-18 gaming crowd (there are a lot of us) might head out and buy the game to see what all the fuss is about, and when the cleaned up version is released, it's still gonna be the most well-known racing name to any kid that's been following the media this week.

Well done, Rockstar.

Mod parent up

[IsoRashi]

Finally, someone with their head on straight. Mod parent up!

Sex in media is ok...

[Belial6]

As long as the sex is in a Disney movie, giving yourself a blowjob in public is perfectly ok.

Shrek 2 has Puss In Boots played by Antonio Banderas sitting on the back of a horse giving himself a blow job when Princess Fiona played by Cameron Diaz walks in and mistakes him for Shrek played by Mike Myers.

So, just ask anyone complaining about GTA:SA what they think about Shrek 2. If they say that Shrek 2 is ok, and GTA:SA is bad, then they are either to stupid to understand the ideas that they are parroting, or they are one of those people that just want to see the video game industry go down, irrelevent of the facts.

Thankfully it's rated...

[ShoobieRat]

So we got a game where you play a guy who speeds around a city running from the police, dealing with drug lords, buying/using guns in gang fights, picking up prostitutes, etc...and it only becomes "for adults only" when boobs get introduced?

Anyone else see a problem here?

And wtf good is a rating called "M: Mature". I mean, good lord...I know 2 year olds with more maturity that some adults. And 17 is mature? Hell, I wouldn't even consider 18 to be mature, or 19, or 20.

But lets get to the root here, folks. We've got an idiotic rating system, run by a load of dorks, fruitcakes, and paranoids, as a fruitless attempt to cover for the fact that there is a massive lack of parenting going on.

Treat the problem, not the symptom.

Hillary Clinton is a conservative group?

[HBI]

What kind of warped parallel universe do you live in?

Re:Hillary Clinton is a conservative group?

[bedroll]

Hillary Clinton is trying to start a lawsuit against Rockstar? She's more likely to try to introduce "child protecting" legislation.

Did you read the rest of the paragraph before taking that out of context, or did you just knee jerk when you saw the word conservative?

Re:Hillary Clinton is a conservative group?

[HBI]

No, I take offense to blaming 'conservative' groups when, if she had just had kept her trap shut, none of this would have happened.

There are wackos who complain about everything. She gave them the opportunity to mug the video game industry in pursuit of her own political ambitions. The scurrying they are doing right now reminds me of nothing more than the scurrying McCarthy's HUAC targets would do, pre-testimony.

But no, it's the conservative groups, right? Where's the anti-Hillary vitriol? I note the PATRIOT act or DMCA didn't get rid of GTA, but Hillary sure did.

Re:Hillary Clinton is a conservative group?

[Nasarius]

Hillary, like Joe Lieberman and Tipper Gore, is very socially conservative.

Re:Hillary Clinton is a conservative group?

[bedroll]

That statement was never about who got rid of it or who was responsible for the change of rating. Read it again:

I'm just waiting for the lawsuits. I'm sure that some offended conservative group is trying to find distress[sic] Moms who's little babies downloaded the patch to modify the game and were sullied. Poor little Johnny.

It's all about a speculated, non-existant lawsuit. I'm sure that readers of that post could easily walk away not blaming conservatives for what happened, and realizing that pure speculation about a lawsuit does not inflect guilt.

With that said, do you really think that groups like The Traditional Values Coalition haven't been raising cain about this? If anyone were to file a lawsuit, it'd be more likely to be groups like this than a NY senator.

Re:Hey game retailers! How about just selling AO?

[DigitalSorceress]

The problem (as I understand it) is that many movie theatres are contractually forced by their leases or by their parent companies that they will not show any movies not rated by the MPAA and that they won't show any movies rated above ${INSERT_VALUE_HERE}.

I wonder if there is a similar thing (or if it's on the way) with Video Games, DVDS, and so-on.

It's not over.

[Irvu]

The flap has yet to end. The story is still on the front page of Google News and I suspect at least a few papers across the country. Some Pols are still calling for hearings and some groups are still rattling their sabres over it. ESRB and Rockstar may want it to be over. We in the /. community may want it to be over but I assure you other people do not. In things like this we play all 9 innings, and it ain't over till everyone says it is.

And in the end...

[hkb]

And in the end, it's just a video game. Although, you wouldn't know it reading the comments for this story. Can we stop the holy war over this, now?

Now I'm pissed....

[harryk]

So my wife, being the lovely and giving person she is, bought me a copy of GTA:San Andreas ... however, being the disconnected person that she sometimes is, she bought the game for a PS2, and not the Xbox which I own.

So here I site, with an un-opened copy of the PS2 version, and I call Best Buy. Now usually, my wife is great at keeping receipts, however in this case it appears that we are without. Being at the mercy of the retailer, I ask that I only be allowed to make an exchange. No go! Due to the store pulling the title, they will not offer an exchange, a store credit, or a refund.

I called Gamestop and offered to sell it to them, and because they don't accept Adult Only titles (which this box is NOT labeled as) they will not offer any value to it.

So what do I do with this? Does it now become valuable because it is unopened, and contains the Hot Coffee content, or do I throw it in the trash because I don't plan on buying a PS2 ... ugh!

harryk

Re:Now I'm pissed....

[bmetzler]

So what do I do with this? Does it now become valuable because it is unopened, and contains the Hot Coffee content, or do I throw it in the trash because I don't plan on buying a PS2 ... ugh!

Do like everyone else. Sell it on eBay.

-Brent

Finally!

[Stonan]

First off, the game was originally GRAND THEFT AUTO. Stealing cars. That's it. Once guns, sex, predatory violence and outright gangland warfare came into it, the basic premise became more of an afterthought. The title doesn't really work anymore. (Kinda like if Half-Life was titled 'Scientific Discovery')

Second, all this so-called 'moral disgust' and the re-rating it to Adults Only instead of Mature leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. The same vile putridness that I haven't tasted since the legal ramblings that surrounded 2-Live Crew.

These ideas generally come from pathetic, simple-minded (and close-minded)individuals who are scared of their own bodies. Mature means just that: Mature. IMHO this means 14 years and above. I think this age because if you haven't learned that things you see/do in a video game are things you shouldn't necessarily do in real life by this time, then your parents have failed miserably raising you as a member of society.

My final point (IMO) is the biggest: they're freaking out about a simulated sex scene but not about the violence, criminal content and (the biggie) buildings being blown up!

Isn't terrorism supposed to be the plague of the 20th/21st century?

Re:Finally!

[gameboyhippo]

I think one of the things I'm hearing here that is far off from the truth is that conservatives are afraid of sex. This is not the case. I very much enjoy sex... with my wife. The Bible even mentions sex often... as a good thing between a man and his wife.

The main reason conservatives are happy is that this is a good excuse to give a game that already deserved an AO rating for it's excessive cruelty and violence an AO rating. In no way should that game (with or without hot coffee) be rated M.

IMO, there is a big difference between watching a cop or a hooker get killed in a movie by the "bad guys" and actually participating. In fact, one of the main arguments for people who like GTA is that this is an "open ended" game and thus you don't have to do this stuff. But what are you going to do in the game if you are not doing something illegal? Are you going to convince a hooker that there are other ways to live? That she can get killed or STDs by being a hooker? Is there an option to rat out the other gangsters? To get a job and purchace a car? I didn't think so.

I guess that's why I'd rather see games like True Crime: NYC than GTA: SA. At least in that game you get the choice to play "good cop".

Re:Finally!

[Stonan]

Point(s) well taken but I think the main point is completely missed: It's only a game.

Someone (can't remember who) said 'I'd rather have my child watch two people having sex rather than two people trying to kill each other'.

Final point: If an individual cannot understand that video games are NOT a true representation of life and are DEFINATELY not a suggestion of appropriate behaviour, they have no business owning or playing this game. By giving it an Adults Only rating it is implied that everyone under the age of majority is socially immature to the point of not knowing how to interact and so mentally incompetent that they will take to heart ANY suggestion that comes along regardless of the source.

Everyone can see this for what it is: a bunch of freaking out over something that is really nothing more than using common sense. This however, didn't stop a woman from collecting a hefty settlement because her coffee was too hot...

Re:Games industry vs. movie industry double standa

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/indus.asp?C ID=N00000019&cycle=2004

Hillary received $1,248,520 from the TV, music, and movie industries.

http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.asp?In d=B02

In 2004, 69% of the $32 million in political donations from the TV, music, and movie industries went to Democrats.

Remember MTA?

[Dubpal]

As far as I'm concerned, Rockstar well and truly boned the modding community on this one.
Rockstar are very quick to shift the blame for the Hot Coffee saga onto the modding groups, who, if we believe the powers who be, sullied the good name of honest game developers who would never be involved in such frivolous acts as incorporating a sex simulator into an honest family game such as GTA: SA is.

How though, is this any different to the modders who brought Multi Theft Auto (MTA) to GTA: Vice City? They harnessed 'unutilised' code present in the game to enable multiplayer/network play capabilities. This action was hailed by Rockstar as a good thing.

The only difference between MTA and Hot Coffee is that Rockstar didn't mind the former being exposed... and renounced any involvement in the exposure of the latter.

You forget their stock dropped 5% over this

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, they can try and spin this whole mess into something good, but they lost 5% of their company's value over it. Do you think they are going to play with that fire again?

I'm waiting till the money ends.

[FatSean]

I'll rack up a nice stack, then leave before you religious idiots can ban abortion and put the gays in camps.

If you're glad to see it's over...

[kwoff]

...why did you bring it up again? Selling something?

Flea Markets

[FatSean]

Up in VT a buddy of mine bought a pistol from a vendor at a flea market. No ID no nothing and 100% legal. It's only a 2.5hour drive for me, and you can conceal a pistol much more easily.

Re:Flea Markets

[Rasta Prefect]

Up in VT a buddy of mine bought a pistol from a vendor at a flea market. No ID no nothing and 100% legal. It's only a 2.5hour drive for me, and you can conceal a pistol much more easily.

And what bizzare world do you live in where a pistol is in any way the equivalent of a machine gun again?

Re:Flea Markets

[Anonymous Coward]

"No ID no nothing and 100% legal"

Did you mean to finish that with "as long as he uses an ID to register the firearm and doesn't carry it on his person without a concealed weapons license"?

And, as already mentioned, there's a major difference between buying a pistol and a machine gun. As far as buying a machine gun, you may find an AK47 or SKS at a swap meet, but it's going to be semi-automatic only. And try getting an AUG or any other foreign assault rifle and you'll find that there are laws in place to make that impossible through any kind of "legal" means without having proper licences. And the flea market is, I'd assume, the Salem gunshow. The vendors do get checked out there.

Re:Flea Markets

[FatSean]

It was a flea market on a north/south route maybe 5-10 minutes north of Brattleboro. Don't know the name but it's pretty popular. The story came from a reliable source.

Legal Trouble for Modder?

[Kamiza Ikioi]

Here's a question. If what the modder did broke a code (violating DMCA) to access content that caused financial damage (recalling all products)...

Connect the dots, and this could become a very big civil/criminal suit against that individual. Luckily for all involved, though, this won't happen, even if it were an open and shut case. R* doesn't want any more negative press (a little negative is good for sales, a lot negative is bad for shareholders), the modding community would be handed a new legal precedent if their mods cause adverse financial problems, and the /. community would all get carpal tunnel debating it.

But, the question remains. If R* went through with this, would it be an open/shut case? What are the views from each side, and how could each side prove their case?

My view is a very close open/shut case, with the case forming similar to that against a virus writer (from prosecution standpoint). The modder could try free speech, but the EULA would most likely be the biggest determining factor. But, I'd like to hear more opinions. This, or something like it, will happen again... sometime, someday. Can that person expect to see the inside of a cell, or be protected by Whistle Blower laws (which I think would be nice in this case)?

Well once you mention the Web...

[snowwrestler]

You're talking about easy access to explicit content anyway. If a kid's going to go through all the trouble of finding, downloading, and implementing an easter egg patch or a mod, why wouldn't he just surf over to the BangBus for some XXX action and skip all the hard work?

killing dealers

[dindi]

a good and easy source to get cash in San Andreas is to kill dealers ... they dump $2-4k on you and they are easy to run over or shot in the head ...

Now you can say many bad things about that game, but at the end it teaches you that dealers hanging around in the neighborhood are not a good thing and should be taken care of for even an extra benefit :)

on the serious side: as i understand you need a patch to the game to unlock the coffe thing ....
To patch a game on Ps2/Xbox you need to be able to run a modified/copied game, and that needs a Modchip.....
Then we are back to square one, they left the thing in the xbox and ps2 versions 2, but if you unlock it you already broke the law by
1. making a copy
2. modding your console (mine is modded for the sake of avi playback, and some games you cannot buy anymore (e.g. REZ and some Japanese imports ))
3. modifying the game ....

I think this whole thing is ridiculous, rockstar really made some cool games and deserves it's place on the top .....
besides, it is cool to run over people, do a drive-by with your girlfriend, and being chased in the cannal system by bad guys, or bad cops ....

As far as you have that tiny little piece of brain to understand that this is a game, this is not reality and you should do that in the game and not in real life ...

On the other hand besides being a good gangster simulator, it is quite educating with the consequences that starting a gang war can bring, the frequent "wasted" sign on your screens, and cars that need somewhat realisticly small amount of damage to burst in flames and explode, sometimes killing you....

AO rating kills a game as many retailers refuse to even put it on their shelves .....

ahm it is too friday ... i better work

On the internet...

[simondm]

If you have to download this mod of the internet, then you can just as easily download hardcore pron. Any determined teenager can get around their parents filters. Is this just a sign that parents/people in general are oblivious to this?

Re:Remind me (best comment on this silliness ever)

[cypherz]

Parent is best comment ever on this whole silly fracas. _Of_course_ Rockstar knew that modders would find the Hot Coffee stuff in the game. They knew the game would get re-rated because of it. It was a plan from the start to do this. _There_is_no_such_thing_as_bad_publicity! They will recoup the losses incurred from pulling the game in a less than a quarter.

Sorry Folks, but you'll have to face the truth:

[Qbertino]

The Truth being that this is nothing but the utter proof that US americans are - when it comes to anything remotely related to sex - exemplaric type A nutcases. Pardon my generalization, but you know what I mean.
I'm not US bashing here. Every nation has it's loony slants. Such as germans with their 'no-speedlimit' policy not matter how many people die in traffic each year.
But a game showing violence and promoting violent behaviour and being nothing but a ultra-gory hackfest such as Doom 3 hardly raises an eyebrow, while this hidded "sex mode" (that show a man fully dressed having sex) makes it into congress is nothing but silly.
Bottom line:
Pure and utter bizar US loonyness at work. Nothing special. Move along.

Re:I'm really puzzled - nice guns here

[Anonymous Coward]

_No_ machine guns here but GREAT rifles!

http://www.globaltrades.com/

American made Kalashnikov rifles! yeeehaaaw! I love this cuntry!

Ebay is your friend....

[rdavis542]

Do a search for "San Andreas," and see the one-day inflated auctions; you'll make your money back plus some.

Re:Hillary Clinton presidential campaign???

[GecKo213]

There is a buzz that you've all no doubt heard that she will run for president. This to me seems just like a jumping off point for a campaign. You've got to pick a target and shoot before you're able to profess to the nation "See how much good and improvement I've done for this country so far?". Can you imagine how much more stuff they'll be able to steal from the whitehouse and airforce one this time? And how funny would it be for Bill Clinton to be the first president to be impeached , AND also to become the first "lady"... Err, Uhh, Man, yeah. He would have to learn to be a gracious host and throw cocktail parties for the president and her entourage.
Just some food for thought.

ahhh.

[slorge]

Nothing like a good hot cup 'o' joe. ...what article?

I"m sure Rockstar Doesnt Mind

[whodunnit]

Has anyone else looked at amazon's sales ranks since this happened? I just looked and of the top 5 selling videogames GTA:SA for different platforms takes 1st, 2nd, and 4th. I'd say they are still doing fine.

"Now who has a free speech problem?"

[Kafir]

According to the ADL:

"In Germany... it is illegal to promote Nazi ideology. In many European countries [France, for one], it is illegal to deny the reality of the Holocaust."

Similarly, Mein Kampf cannot be sold in the Netherlands, and there seem to be some restrictions on its sale in Germany.

I understand the desire to prevent a resurgence of Nazism, but it seems like a dangerous precedent to outlaw historical claims, however absurd. And banning books is something you'd think Germany in particular would be wary about.

Nazism aside, there's Poland, where "[a]s of 2005, people are sometimes convicted... for insults to religious feeling", and the Republic of Ireland, where "the constitution explicitly requires that the publication of 'blasphemous, seditious, or indecent matter' be a criminal offence."
"Blasphemous matter"? Anyway, that's what Wikipedia turns up on the subject.

The U.S. has an embarrassing history when it comes to obcenity laws, but we do have stronger protection for political speech than most (if not all) of Europe.

Re:"Now who has a free speech problem?"

[pafrusurewa]

"The U.S. has an embarrassing history when it comes to obcenity laws, but we do have stronger protection for political speech than most (if not all) of Europe." Right, sometimes you even have "Free Speech Zones".

Re:"Now who has a free speech problem?"

[Kafir]

Yes, and there were the Alien and Sedition Acts, and the Sedition Act of 1918, and the McCarthy "witch-hunts", and a certain amount of "hate crimes" legislation and campaign finance regulation that concern me today - but to my knowledge there are, in the United States, no ideas which it is illegal to express. That is not the case in much of Europe: Germany, Austria, and France (at least) have laws against denying the Holocaust, and several European countries have (rarely enforced) laws against blasphemy or insulting religious beliefs (as do some U.S. states, though those laws are void because they are superceded by the first amendment to our constitution). I'll stand by my assertion: legally, practically, and certainly historically, the U.S. does have stronger protection for the expression of ideas than most of Europe (again, despite our continued puritanism when it comes to "obscenity").

I did appreciate your witticism re "Free Speech Zones", though; sorry if you didn't mean to provoke a serious response.

Re:"Now who has a free speech problem?"

[pafrusurewa]

Well, I'm actually Austrian and it's true that anti-Nazi laws here sometimes border on the ridiculous. See, this Hitler guy was Austrian and it seems most people don't want something like this to happen again. In Germany there is actually a National Socialist Party, something which would be illegal in Austria.
I agree that laws against blasphemy are rediculous, and they are occasionally enforced in countries like Greece.

But just try to appear unpatriotic in the U.S. (e.g. refuse to recite the Pledge of Allegiance or advocate overthrowing your government, no big deal here) and there's a good chance you'll be labelled an Evil Terrorist (tm). If not legally then socially. That's "forbidden ideas" right there. They even made unconstitutional laws for that. That kind of blind "patriotism" (Support our Troops!) is unheard of around here. So is imprisoning people in metal cages for years without trial.

To me, everyday life in Europe feels "more free" than in the U.S. In the U.S. you have curfew zones (really!), no eating on many buses, absurd drinking ages, no drinking alcohol in parks, fines for being in certain areas (parks) after dark. Now these are things many people don't even think could exist in a democracy. On the other hand an American might feel restricted because he can't buy guns as easily.

And since you mention it, there's hardcore porn on broadcast TV and nudity in commercials is very common here... :-)

Sorry for the long rant. I guess all I'm saying is it's different here, not necessarily better or worse. The idea that somehow the U.S. is the shining beacon of democracy and free speech is something that's pretty much laughed at in the rest of the world.

ESRB... Hypocritical?

[Bones3D_mac]

Not sure if anyone else has mentioned it, but there are other ultra-violent titles with blatant sex games in them that you can play even without a patch, such as "God of War", yet this still only gets a mere "M" rating?

I'm sorry, but if the ESRB is going to change the terms defining what qualifies as an AO rated title, they need to update their ratings across the entire board, not just when they feel like punishing someone for whatever reason they see fit at the moment.

I would seriously hope Rockstar will contest this unwarranted ratings change in court siting these other games as examples of how skewed and biased the ESRB is on a per-company basis when it's supposedly impartial.

Take your pick

[Anonymous Coward]

The industry has three possible choices:

1. Adhere to standards for all games, like Hollywood did before the ratings system was established. This basically means all games are E (everyone) or T (Teen), and it's obvious from the box. Hollywood movies used to be like this, and they had a wide audience.
2. Ratings system, like Hollywood has now, which is what the industry is trying to do. It should be noted that when Hollywood went to its rating system in the 1960s, they lost well over half their audience.
3. Anything goes. The people who want to keep pushing the envelope will drive the content down to AO/R/NR levels, and you can write off the the teen and pre-teen market (parents won't buy games at all). And a lot of adults without kids won't buy them either. Any developer who wants to target a more general audience won't be able to, because no one will take a chance on buying the game. The industry will be permanently marganalized and being a game deveoper will carry about the same rep as a porn director.

Wired Article Quote

[Prog_Burner]

Do I detect a slight bit of sarcasm in a story that reads almost the same as any 5 others?

from http://wired.com/news/games/0,2101,68284,00.html?t w=wn_tophead_1

The industry group revoked the game's M rating, which labeled it appropriate for players 17 or older, and re-filed it under AO for "adults only" -- raising the minimum age to 18, the year at which a delicate teen becomes less susceptible to the harmful influence of computer-generated cartoon sex.

That pretty much sums up what I think about this whole issue.

Re:Wired Article Quote

[ArtStone]

Ah, but you overlook that Congress in 1996 declared that cartoon sex is the same as real sex!

[The US Supreme Court fortunately corrected their misimpression in 2002]

Predictable stock blip?

[postdocalypse]

I'm no market analyst, but it seems like a 5% drop in stock price in response to this could be the source of some tidy profit. Granted, sales may suffer (justifying the lowered price). However, the company *does* own one of the most popular video game titles/franchises in the country (world?). You can also bet that they'll actually *gain* sales in some communities that will accept (active seek, perhaps?) a little sex with their violence. This is like a super easter egg, in some ways... a feature many gamers seem to like. Anyone going to consider picking up a little stock?

Can you use it in a sentence?

[Anonymous Coward]

Recalcitrant, DirecTV offers access to over 225 channels, recalcitrant.

Still on sale in the UK

[makomk]

Interestingly, GTA:SA still seems to be on sale in the UK. Of course, it was rated 18 here anyway, and that rating should allow content of the type in the Hot Coffee mod IIRC.

(Some games in the UK, including this one, are rated under the film rating system. Mostly 18-rated ones, though Half-Life 2 did get a 15 rating in the BBFC (film) classification. Lower clasifications are done under some sort of voluntary industry scheme - ELSPA.)

Rating doesn't matter now

[Sierpinski]

I don't think the M to AO rating hurt Rockstar, aside from their stock going down. I don't know of one person who would change their mind to buy the game just because of that extra content. In fact I know some people who probably weren't planning to buy it (mostly because they thought it would be too much like Vice City) but now think they will go out and try the new content, regardless of the rating.

If that game ends up into the hands of a minor, regardless of rating, then the parenting ability of the parents should be questioned. Its not for kids, plain and simple.

What a fantastic game though

[Anonymous Coward]

Voice acting of Samual Jackson and James Woods to name a few. The game sets climate and mood on a brillant backdrop of very diverse music (I hated rap until I played that game, 2 cd have already made it into my collection and I have a new gendre to fill, RIAA would be proud).

GTA:SA is a fitting update to the previous 2 and the last likely edition using the old engine. In a more surreal universe, the hypocrisy of American politics really shines thanks to the title.

What the hell are you guys going to do, who the hell do you and why vote at all. We need a "none of the above" on the ballots except the people who could put it there derive power from it's absents.

Not a Flame, a Promise.

[FatSean]

Watch it happen...watch all the talent drain away from this nation as a loud-mouth group of half-wits who believe in fairy tales flushes our society down the drain.

Headline: "This is not news!"

[Piquan]

I'm not normally one to gritch about /. articles. But doesn't this essentially say, "This article is no longer newsworthy!"

Are the Sims next to receive an AO rating

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/07/22/news_61296 09.html

Not likely. eh?

I bought a copy but there was no sex scene

[noidentity]

I feel ripped off. Everyone talking about this sex scene, and an AO rating, but my copy does not have this sex scene. I certainly won't install any unauthorized patches from third-parties (for all I know it's a virus), and Rockstar sure doesn't provide anything to enable this. Does it have a sex scene or does it not?

(fictitious post; I have never even seen GTA)

Stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

When they found out that The Rescuers or Who Framed Roger Rabbit had nudity hidden in them, their rating didn't get changed .. same crap.

It doesn't end with GTA:SA! More pushing!

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/07/22/news_61296 09.html

So there you have it. This isn't ending any time soon.

Give Them What They Ask For

[Anonymous Coward]

If the politicians are going to force this as an AO game, then give it real AO content. If Rockstar has the rating...might as well use it to truely show what creative content they are capable of when the gloves come off. With the following of GTA, it could pave the way towards a mainstream Adult Only market.

Senator Clinton....

[sethstorm]

...would you like some hot coffee?

complaining about pron in your violence

[vaporland]

is like complaining about speed in your crack cocaine, or chocolate in your peanut butter . . .

Violation of EULA

[Anonymous Coward]

Wouldn't modifying the program be a violation of the EULA? I was just wondering?

ok, nevermind

[SethJohnson]

You're right. Nevermind.

Seth