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What Do You Want in a Job Website?
antifoidulus asks: "After reading some complaints about monster.com from both the perspectives of job seekers and employers it struck me as how, even in 2006, most job sites are incredibly poor at what they do. So I ask my fellow Slashdot readers, both job seekers and employers, what do you really want in a jobs web site? What features are totally lacking in the current crop? Also, what aspects of the current systems do you love/hate?"
Jobs not recruiters..
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." ~Plato (427-347 BC)
Most sites ask you the geographic areas you want to work in, but the recruiters who troll the sites don't listen. I want a job site where when I check "Sacramento" I don't get called for jobs in San Jose or "the Bay Area". That's NOT Sacramento folks, learn to read! While you're at it, how about banning recruiters who aren't from the area they're hiring for? I hate it when some schmoe recruiter in North Carolina is trying to fill a job in California...
...naked recruiters!
For once, I hope I can see a site that allows me to fully customize my CV, but not through a standardized web form.
Mmmm. Free market research...
More jobs. If you aren't searching nationally (which most people aren't) or leaving the fields blank ; there aren't more than one or two matches. Even these are mostly fake jobs listed from headhunters and placement agencies looking to expand their pool of workers. I'd also like to see less competition between the job websites. I don't like checking 15 websites for a job every day.
PS: For Canadian bums like me that are looking for a job, check this site out.
Religion for nerds. Stuff that really matters
A job that pays me to tastes coffee and doughnuts with a good wage, benefits and an early retirement plan.
I'm sick of seeing "open" or "market" for salary ranges.
I'm sick of seeing job postings that want someone to be experts in Cisco, Windows administration, Exchange, AD, Linux, Solaris, Oracle, SAP, and perl scripting experts for $60k.
I'm sick of seeing job postings with technology contradictions, including requiring more years of experience with a technology than it's been around.
I'm sick of seeing job postings for jobs that don't exist -- find a way to penalize recruiters who post non-existant jobs for resume collection.
I'm sick of seeing job postings which misclassify jobs entirely. Find standardized ways of describing a position, like using SAGE's job descriptions -- http://www.sage.org/pubs/8_jobs/core.mm
500GB of disk, 5TB of transfer, $5.95/mo
Entry level position, must have 5 years experience in .net 2.0, 4 years in perl 6, ....
and so on for an absurd laundry list of arbitrary skils which tell me that the people hiring are either clueless or insane.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
The job descrptions should include the reviews/comments from current employee/s (could be anonymous) who is/are working in the same position as the seeking title. That would clearly tell the aplicant what to expect or how many years to stick with the company. Forget about the description of jobs posted by original head hunter. they dont know the field work, nor the results of the job. just some lazy ass manager sends them requirements & headhunters add some bells & whistles & post on sites/newspapers. we need honest comments from current employees.
... I really don't use job sites, but I've poked around a bit.
1) ban recruiters
2) manditory salary ranges
3) must include company name so I can do research
4) use a good set of standard tags (travel, COBOL, PMI, etc)
5) list when you're deciding to award the job
Places like Monster only allow you to pick metropolitan areas. I want to be able to stick in MY location and see all jobs that fit my criteria within a 45 minute commute.
-Rick
"Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
I should be able to rate my skills in different areas (i.e. C#, ASP, NetBurst engineering, etc.) from 1 to 10. Employers should filter their applicants in this fashion; so if I know more about the target material than the next guy, I'm more likely to get an E-mail. Furthermore, the site should encourage conversation; existing job sites leave the vast majority of applicants feeling alone. How about a chat area for different job categories?
Slackmaster K Proprietor, DamnedNice Blog
As in, things for a bright college student to do, without needing 10 years of experience in everything. I mean, I get the point, but I *know* that I'm capable of doing a few things here and there.
Posted Salaries.
I want the jobs to come to me.
I already subscribe to a couple of job sites that offer feeds and have had great results using them. I wouldn't even consider manually searching for jobs at this point.
Monster seems to feel that a solution to the problem already exists -- you can turn off the ability for others to send you unsolicited offers. But I want people to be able to offer me jobs, provided it's a job that I'd have some chance of being interested in. What really needs to exist is an enhanced set of filters for the unsolicited offers. I should be able to filter people who don't provide a salary range, for example, or don't meet a minimum salary determined by me. I should be able to include in my summary conditions for that contact. Or filter by industry. Or job category. Or any of a dozen other factors that I should be able to control.
Then you need a feedback mechanism to rate the quality of the unsolicited offers -- both on a community level, perhaps like eBay ratings, and back to the job board, perhaps to notify them when someone has falsified information to evade filters.
Of course, the problem with all this is that the job posters pay the bills. Profitable job sites are going to limit the employers as little as possible so long as they can maintain some illusion of job seeker-focus.
Jobs, of course. Categorized and cross-indexed in any which way you could think of, so it's straightforward to narrow down to only those posts that actually are of interest. You want job listings for network management in east London, with at least such and such base salary, weekends and nights acceptable, at a small or medium-sized firm at least two years old, then that's what you should get. And it should optionally match your profile to explude listings that are not a fit for you (not enough experience, no bus drivers' licence, etc.).
The trick to a good service is to make the listings reliable and complete. If a company posts hugely inflated requirements (must have 200+ years experience coding Java) in the hope of attracting top people, you're going to miss valid openings since they'd be filtered (you only have 180 years on your resume). Likewise, no employer is happy wading through exaggerated, not-quite-lying resumes to find people that actually are qualified. Figure out how to make it _easy_ to be honest. Make all listings anonymous, would perhaps help? Not sure about that.
Also, make all listing open-ended. Don't have a set of checkboxes for what languages you know (or seek), for example - no matter how many you list, you will miss some, and people will wnat to qualify their answer more than a yes/no check. Let people write in the language, and a one-line comment about their ability (or needed ability). Make it open-ended, then do text searching for matching. Make any graded description, like skill level, very vivid and concrete. An abstract 1-5 scale can and does mean very different things, but if you make each point descriptive, with an example, it's easier to find a common level. Oh, and three levels is almost always sufficient for ability descriptions. Any finer graduation will be a matter for the full-size CV and interviews.
Ideally, there should be a comments section on each and every company, and each and every job seeker a'la Amazon, so you can evaluate the general desireability asa workplace or workmate. But of course, job seekers and small firms will not get enough comments to constitute a valid sample, and I'd imagine there'd be more than a few legal headaches providing a comments section as well.
Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
Job sites need some means to prevent recruiters simply doing keyword searches through resumes, but never reading past your phone number.
Nothing is more annoying than some C-average H.R. major who didn't even bother to look at your name until the phone was ringing, say "So tell me what it is you do!"
I do not want such morons to "schedule some face time" with me, nor do I want them to "touch base" to "keep you up to speed."
-CR
"So is the BSD licence even more 'free' (than GPLv2)? Yes. Unquestionably." --Linus Torvalds (TinyURL.com/2vugzl)
I would love a job website that didn't have 100 US Navy and US Army ads mixed in. If someone were interested in a US Military career, I don't think they would be looking for java programming jobs on dice.com or monster.
The TOS of any good job site should make it clear to recruiters that they can only post for jobs that they can fill, not generic jobs just to get your resume. Also there needs to be a way to filter recruiters for agencies out.
Also don't make me sign up for the website to look at jobs or receive email notifications.
When I go to a job board, I want to see the latest postings, not the same old crap from yesterday or three weeks ago reposted with today's date. The listing should have the ORIGINAL date the job was posted -- leave it alone! Also, get rid of the job spamming by national staffing outfits and the phony "Work at Home!" clutter. Stop wasting our time.
RSS feeds pointing at specific company or job filters. Instead of getting an email for each crap job, I'd like to have my browser alert me when new openings match my criteria.
Seth
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
1. Their main revenue source these days seems to be from student loan refinance companies.
2. They allow bogus "professional training" companies to masquerade as employers.
3. They don't make it clear how much information others can learn about you (e.g., can a complete stranger find your name, address, phone number, etc.? Can your current employer see that you recently posted your resume?)
A good job website would work like this. Job seekers can post one or two resumes online for free. Employers can search all resumes for free. They can contact job seekers for a small fee. Job seekers should be able to choose which employers can see their contact info. Any "employer" offering job seekers anything other than a real job or internship should not be allowed to use the site. Predatory student loan refinancing companies should be completely excluded from the site.
If you can read this sig, you're too close.
No I do NOT want to work from home giving away free satilite dishes. No I am NOT interested in medical billing nor do I think it is an exciting career. Yet both of these, along with many others like them, come up in a search for information technology jobs on Monster.
http://www.CelloFourteGroupie.net
How about instead of job websites we change the focus dramatically .... how about we creat a reputation market site based on your job performance? You are rated by how you perform not by who the fuck you are or who you know. Secondly, this cuts out job sites themselves, how about doing some work to find quality people rather than being passive collectors.
Steve Magruder, Metro Foodist
They advertise here all the time: dice.com isn't bad from my perspective. Monster.com will send you email telling you "there are matches" for your agents, then you have to log in, go through the ads (even if you pay them), and look for the one or two jobs that is a possible match.
Dice.com sends you an email with all of the links, you don't have to log in, and the ads are unobtrusive. I didn't get my latest job through them, but I did get a couple of interviews. BTW, don't just "apply now"; see if you can figure out how to apply directly to the company offering the position, customize your cover letter, etc. Call them, send them a paper resume - whatever. Put in the extra effort, it's worth it.
on a serious note, I would like to see the companies NOT to sound so needy of people.. please dont spam my email when I upload my resume.. I should be more desperate than you, not the other way round. and have realistic job requirements (as people have mentioned before me)
Do tell
I'll tell you what I'm fscking sick of. Every single book/pamphlet/magazine/website/list of job seeking suggestions threatens a job seeker with death if they don't format everything perfectly, spell everything perfectly, and make your cover letter and resume look like a shining diamond. Yet the job postings I see on every single job site, whether it's craigslist or somewhere really formal, are pieces of shit.
They're spelled incorrectly, they have horrible grammar. There are inconsistencies with the technology (four years of something that has only existed for 2). They're inconsistent with how they want you to contact them: the company wants a direct email, the job site wants you to go through their website, and the recruiter wants you to go through them.
I swear to god, companies need to get their shit together if they expect the same from us. When I'm looking for a job, that's really number one in my book, is the company even focused enough to create a coherent job post. Because there are plenty that are shit, and I'm just going to look right past you.
We always knew Comcast was corrupt, here's the proof: http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1909890&cid=34545432
1. I want to know if it's a recruiter or a direct job. I do not mind recruiters, but often they are just "fishing". And I do not want to waste my time.
... And a position for 12.35 an hour in a call center will just be wasting all of our times. Or a "guru" position at 130k .. You will get much closer applications if you place the low and high of what a position will pay. I don't like "negotiating" my job the way I would a used car. Although it seems that some recruiters and used car salespeople come from the same school.
.. You did it to your self.
2. I want to know where the position is. I don't want to waist my time with "Seattle area" When I live on the East side and a job in Tacoma would be a 2 hour commute each way.
3 I want to know how much they expect to pay for a position. I make over 60k a year in IT
The point is that if you low ball my salary sure you might be able to make more in your commission. But When I get the offer I was expecting from a competitor well
This is exactly what happened to me in my last 2 jobs. I accepted a "lowball" offer to get me out of the position I was in. After 4 months (and no promised review after 90 days that was supposed to come with the salary I should have gotten the whole time). I was recruited over to a great position I now have. I do not expect to be leaving any time soon.
Well it's just my opinion.
Nothing is more annoying than some C-average H.R. major who didn't even bother to look at your name until the phone was ringing, say "So tell me what it is you do!"
I think I spoke with that person recently. I emailed a resume in both pdf and opendocument format to an HR manager recently. I also included a link to my online, html format resume. Guess what the reply email that I recieved 3 weeks later said? "I couldn't open your resume, can you send it in word?". Shit!
Religion for nerds. Stuff that really matters
I'd like to see listings consistently disclose the industry the job is in, and perhaps some more info about the organisation itself.
As a current jobseeker, I'm sick of seeing the position listed, with half a page of "buzz words" (that I should be sure to include on my application) without actually telling me what the business is about. That IS important to me.
My experience is in logistics and large scale distribution. A recruitment office recently offered me a job they said was IDEALLY suited to me. It turned out to be not much more than printing mailing labels for newsletters. I couldn't find this out until the interview, which I walked out of after being told they didn't actually distribute anything(or move any product) at all.
Morons.
And that kids is how I met your mother.
I may be in the minority on this but I would like more detailed field/industry categories. Just because I know C++ doesn't mean I want to code tax software. And just because I did QA work on Madden doesn't mean I want to QA yacht off board motor / ground terrain monitoring systems
This should filter employer replies as well. I would like to say don't allow employers in the following fields... to contact me.
Not that I think there is anything wrong with other industries. I'm just not interested in them right now and don't want to waist time for both of us.
Indeed.com is a good step in the right direction. (disclaimer: I work there)
Indeed currently has 3.4 million jobs from the last 30 days. It lets you search jobs from thousands of sites in one place. And it has a cool job trends tool.
Oh yea, and it has a site for Canadian jobs, too.
I routinely get job offers for Southern California and the East Coast. Although I explicitly state everywhere else I'm looking for something in Silicon Valley/Santa Clara County. It got to the point that I would cut off a recruiter before they get into the sales pitch to ask them where first before wasting time for either one of us.
Even more annoying is trying to explain to some recruiters why I'm not going to drop my current contract job to run over for an interview in the middle of the day. I'm making money now. Why should I blow off money on the table for an interview that might turn into a job that pays. Some recruiters just don't get this.
I love the recruiters for Microsoft. At one time, I was considered for five different positions over a two month period that never panned out for one reason or another. Seems like some Microsoft managers need a prade of potential cadidates to be considered at the same time before they decide on anything else. So frustrating...
Boards help employers and recruiters, in that order, not technologists. Whatever you might think (and congrats to those of you who have had good experiences with them), writ large they're harmful to your job-search time and to your long-term professional prospects.
Better to spend your time with one of the bigger-scale social networks such as LinkedIn or such, getting in touch with people who actually know of real work needs and can speak factually of what's expected and the environment in which you'll work. No less work (often more), no guarantees (not that the boards offer any either) but the end goal--a human contact at an employer--is actually attainable.
I would really appreciate a site or two where people could enter their current salaries along with their zip code, title, and experience level. Realistically, this would have to be done anonymously both on the part of the employee and their employer to keep political problems to the minimum. The end result would be a transparent database of salary ranges that employees could use to bargain with, instead of being stuck with salary.com's completely opaque and often erroneous numbers.
Perhaps one of the large employment sites could create this service, though it might be seen as a hostile move toward the companies which pay their bills. The alternative is running it as an independent website, though convincing the first thousand people (or however many you need) to fill in enough information to start the database seems like a hard problem to solve.
At http://www.jobbank.com/ we were a bit surprised and happy to hear about this topic on slashdot. Having come out with jobbank.com this last summer in full production mode, we have been soliciting feedback constantly but it comes back to us in trickles. As a result of the feedback, however, we recently added tools and will soon have a new, more colorful look.
When we decided to create a job site business we found that many of the sites out there currently were not just excessively expensive, but difficult to use. We were hoping to provide an alternative.
As a developer there, it is a challenge to keep making the site better, but I will try to make sure the feedback here goes right back into the work we are doing.
Oh wait... I meant Craigslist;) (My past two jobs, both outstanding firms and fascinating work, both search for open positions exclusively on Craigslist). Sure, there are always... overzealous postings by those somewhat lacking in understanding of the field in which they are searching... But if anything, they provide as much amusement as frustration... Any anyone hear who complains that there isn't enough 'entry level' stuff out there... Stop expecting the world handed to you on a silver platter. You want entry level? go make yourself a position. Learn some cool technology on the side. Charm people... Impress people... develope a passion. "Entry level" is bullshit... a 'code monkey' position put in place by Human Resource Managers who have zero concept of engineering and are just looking to fill heads... You don't learn how to innovate when you're being told constantly how to think... Sitting and waiting for your 'cookie-cutter' position is only assuring that you will be stuck in HR cookie-cutter hell for the rest of your life. You want entry level? Go find a startup short on talent looking for their big break... you know what, they'll probably fail, they'll pay like shit, but you'll learn more (in a shorter period of time) than you ever knew possible. How about figure out what aspect of engineering _really_ excites you and start mopping floors for a company that does it (I know many brilliant Games engineers who started in QA)... Sure, you're still doing crap work in a 'low-level' position, but at least your pursuing your passion... You want an interesing career? Go make one for yourself... this world doesn't owe it to you... Your young- this is the best time in your life to go make some sacrifices and take some risks... Even if your numbers don't come up, by the time you're done not only will you no longer be entry level, but you'll have the experience and the drive to make your a very valuable employee, not just a 'mid-level'... And you'll probably have a bit more fun while your at it;) /rantoff
I had no concept of the size of California when I moved out here from New England - more specifically, the tri-state area (new york, new jersey, pennsylvania). Commuting from PA to Manhattan isn't such a crazy thing, even though it's a "long" 2 or 3 hour commute. I always figured LA was that far away from San Francisco (now I know it's 5 hours), and that San Diego was "right next to" LA. Oops. Distances in California are made even longer (time-wise) because of the parking lot known as the highway. The same drive that takes one hour could take 25 minutes without the traffic. Sheesh. I'd never heard of a metering light 'til I got here.
It just seems that the applicants I get are rarely suited for the position they're applying for. They seem to just fire resumes out of a shotgun. They don't have any experience in the specific field (database driven websites), or even in the general technologies (when to use a left join in SQL). At this point in the web's history, is it really too much to expect people who already know this stuff? And for them to be easy people to work with? The catches are just too few and far between.
.sig for heaven's sake!
It sounds from the other posts here that the would-be-employees have similar compaints from the other side. Too much noise, not enough signal. Recruiters annoy me too. What can these job sites do about it? Hell if I know. I'm too busy trying to hire people!
I've been relegated to including a link to my company's tech jobs page in my slashdot
Cheers.
Forget law enforcement. Send your resume to the nuclear power plant in Springfield...
My resume says I don't do X and Y (and various other things I do and don't). If you can't comprehend that and respect it, you have no business in recruiting. You're not just annoying me but you are not serving your clients either. Take 3 seconds and read the friggin' resumes before you contact people about completely irrelevant jobs. Once you've done that, there is no way in hell I'd work with you, even if you came flouncing back to me later on with a "dream job" in your slobbering maw.
I know there are ethical recruiters out there, but the rest of you are total bottom-feeders and really need to go find something else to do.
My suggested rules:
Recruiters AND companies must disclose themselves and be held accountable for how they treat people. Name of company, how to reach them, etc.
Allow job seekers to RATE and write reviews about the recruiters and employers on technical competence, ethics, etc. Too many bad ratings and you get suspended from posting, then later banned if you keep being an asshat.
Require salary range on job listings. No rangey, no posty.
If I knew how to build a great job website, I wouldn't tell you. Sounds like some corporate flunkie is drilling us for free consulting. Good job helping him out. With all the skeptics in this place I find it odd that so many people are posting. Ego > skepticism.
I'll second this feature, just to emphasize it.
I'm operating on a bare bones life support income, so I can afford to be picky and think long-term for the position I really want. That means having data in one place: a folder of my inbox (I use rss2email for my feed reading).
Very cool site. Any chance you guys are hiring ;)
Religion for nerds. Stuff that really matters
I'm sick of going to sites that allow me to submit my resume in (insert document type here) only to have to re-enter the entire thing manually because they screw it all up trying to parse the document into their pre-defined form fields. Either tell me I need to make my resume manually, or just take the damn .doc (or whatever) and learn how to parse it properly.
"So after all this, you make my case for me. To end this stalemate, you must die..."
The employers should make the jobs available for the site's applicants, it makes no sense posting a job that later will be given to the comapny's owner nephew or some sort of internal application crap, it wastes everyone's time.
Less bullshit, the economy is in a down spiral, those so called "JOBS" you see aren't at all, they are just smoke to give the fools out there a false sense of prosperity and to keep the shareholders from cashing their stocks, think about it.
Less of 10% of jobs at [place your favorite site here] are really available, tell me, how many people you know have gotten a cool job from a job listing site?, how they got their job?, mostly from contacts.
Do you want to know how good the economy is, park you car in front of a mall and get the balance of people with shopping bags vs those who are "browsing".
There's nothing I hate more than having to go through some recruiter (who often turns out to be a scumbag). What I want in a jobsite is an actual connection between job seekers and employers, with no middlemen getting in the way. The recruiters are a problem in more ways than I can count.
AccountKiller
My biggest issue with job websites and even the employment section of newspapers is intentionally omitting details that mmight help me decide that I'm not interested... I tire of researching a position only to find it's not even in the county.
I counter with "valid canidates."
My mid-sized company uses monster. We have open positions that represent 10% of our workforce. We are in dire need for these positions to be filled.
The boolean mentality does not work for most "good" jobs. Sure, people like the system to pick out the one "perfect" job/canidate, and start on Monday. It doesn't work that way. Typically, a company has minimum requirements and maximum pay in mind, and they want the system to offer the best people within those constraints for further screening.
A better system would mimic a headhunter more than a classified ad, with an incentive for making the match rather than making the marketplace.
Sure, you don't want to move, but under what conditions would you reconsider? The salary might be lower, but the fringe benefits could make up for it. You might be hired for a posting below your skills, with the opportunity to advance quickly.
You really want the killer app? Create a shared database for recruiters like what exists for real-estate. Require screened canidates and offers.
Recently got done with a job search; didn't get any worthwhile responses until I posted my resume on craigslist, and out of that I got two great offers.
Seriously. No ads, no login, no cost. Craig is my friend.
All,
;>
I'm a disabled person. I'm also very well qualified for the work I do (Software QA, Network R&D, and Systems Administration). Whenever I look for a job I always run into a problem: HR folks never read the resume. So I'll get a call, and go through the interview, and then broach the topic of mobility restrictions. Usually I will discover that the job is not one I could ever perform as part of the job is just beyond what I am physically capable of. The HR drone would have known that had they READ my resume. I find it really annoying. Then I run into the problem of locating the jobs that I can perform the work of. I also know that there are jobs out there that are very disabled friendly, and that are looking for employees to hire.
Usually, this inequity is just the facts of life. However, the federal government is now actively tasking it's agencies to locate and employ disabled workers. The problem of locating those "phantom workers" is very difficult for each agency and for recruiters looking to fill those jobs. I recently took a blind call from a recruiter who became ecstatic when he learned that I work from home and am disabled (and thus have a "Track record"). He expressed real frustration in finding those of us who are not on disability, are employable, and who fit their positions that are open.
So I envision something like a series of check boxes on a job form and or candidate form:
1) Job cannot/cannot be performed by someone in a wheelchair
2) Job requires bending, lifting and twisting | job does not require physical work at all | Job rquires lifting etc.
3) Job requires hearing (e.g. there is some reason why someone who is deaf and cannot use a hearing aid cannot perform the job function say a traffic cop)
4) Job requires sighted individual (Cable pulling technician, as an example)
5) Job is looking for disabled persons and is disabled accessible (e.g. no bumps that trap wheel chairs and doors that are wide enough to get through)
6) Job permits 100% teleworking for disabled workers | Job Rquires weekly/montlhy physical vistits but Telework otherwise okay | Job requires ability to be in office; no telework.
you know stuff like that. It's a touchy subject and would need help from legal to proeprly frame into words. However it would amaze those of you who are not disabled and are not exposed to disabled people just how many of us folks exist who are fully employed but dread looking for a new job because of the non obvious hurdles that exist to finding a job. Those same individuals can often bring a skilled employee to a job that has gone unfilled for too long.
I know it will never happen but I had to vent
Umm I bet if they were hiring.... they would.... post it on their job site! :)
Your IT Company's Biggest Enemy by Christopher Diggins
Most companies just dont read any of the stuff you send them. And then there is the annoying practice of cutting and pasting ascii text from a well formatted resume just so that the recruiter can ensure that the company reverts back to him for the phone numbers and contact addresses. I would like to see recrutiters banned banned banned banned banned... I like PDFs and other stuff for protecting resumes just for this purpose.
Then there is the resume side. In the era of relational databases, XML, context-sensitive information, semantic wikis and heirarchical data types, I think we can do rather better than a static file. Many sites require you to use a builder anyway, so I utterly fail to see the point in a system that regurgitates information that is of no interest and no relevance to the position to the corporation involved. It wastes the time of the applicant and the Human Resources department and could be avoided completely by allowing data to be grouped and related, then have a dynamic resume that is meaningful for the position.
Finally, there is responsibility. Jobs advertised aren't always genuine (the job doesn't exist, never has, the company or recruiter is merely collecting resumes or otherwise data-mining), are frequently inaccurate (the description doesn't match reality to any degree whatsoever, so it goes beyond mere artistic license), pay-scales are bogus for some careers, and locations can sometimes be 40-50 miles wide of the mark. Job-seekers generally don't have the resouces of the NSA and FBI to track down the inaccuracies. If someone needs a job, chances are they're not going to have the money to hold anyone accontable if the advert does turn out to be utter bullshit. Besides, although some (not all) States protect goods and services through lemon laws and accurate advertising (and even then, protections are so minimal as to barely exist), I have never heard of any such law covering job adverts.
Job sites are little more than online versions of a card index file, with the onus 100% on the reader of the card to know what the writer would have written, had they been honest. This takes no advantage of the technology, but DOES take advantage of job-seekers.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
how about a little sense of humor and/or personality? so many employment & job search sites out there are completely devoid of a human sensibility or fun. who says you can't be useful yet still enjoy the ride... (full disclosure: i work for SimplyHired.com, where i attept to write error messages that make people smile) - dave mcclure http://www.simplyhired.com/ http://www.simplyfired.com/
- Dave McClure mailto:dave@simplyhired.com
I think the biggest problem is perception. I have never used a job-finding website, nor do I plan to. My impression of these services is that any worthwhile employer doesn't need to turn to the internet to find employees. Employers may very well feel the same way. If someone has to go online to find a job, then how valuable can he or she be? I suspect that these 'services' suffer from the same stigma as online dating services. That's the problem. Getting rid of that image would go a long ways. Gear the service towards finding obscure jobs. I'm sure there are many small companies out there that job-seekers don't even know exist. I'm an engineering student and am constantly amazed when I take a new road and come across a new engineering firm within 30 minutes of my home, and this is rural South Jersey! In large cities, the numbers are probably mind boggling. I would suggest networking. Touch base with smaller companies, startups, etc. and get them to use your service. Do away with the, "Anyone can sign up and recruit employees," model. Require an application with information on the company before allowing them an account. Quality control is KEY. On the job-seekers side, target schools. While you obviously wouldn't want to restrict yourself to graduating students, that should still be a primary target market. Either way, the biggest issue is getting past the 'dating service' preconception. Do that, and you're gold.
He is on the money. The fact that he's only got a two right now is disgraceful.
First, job listings should clearly state primary requirements seperate from nice-to-have requirements and searches should know the difference. For example, search on Perl or Python and you get a bunch of jobs where these are secondary, not the meat and potatoes of the job.
Second, specifying acceptable job locations via pop-down menus with cntl-click to select is a joke. A dialog box with check boxes would be better.
I'd also like to see some way to distinguish between downtown locations and the 'burbs. Use city to designate general location, but give direction and approx distance from downtown. (I for one won't consider an inner city job if pop is 300K+, but would consider outlying or rural areas. The challenge is how to tell.)
All of this dies if the entire job description is freeform text. Designing a 'form' with defined data fields could go a long way to improving things.
An opinion of one....
Many jbs today can be
I've been contracting for a few years and looking in vain for something full-time.
s upport]
you must demand the listings have posted salaries. a salary comparison by metro would be nice also
standard titles for positions
eliminate ad/scam postings
have a recruiter rating system that seekers can know who is a waste of time
no company confidential postings
seekers can set specific rules about who can contact them
separate site into 2 sides, [technical jobs]-[everyone else jobs]
separate IT into 5 major categories [networks]-[programming]-[web]-[administration]-[
allow me to post my resume in the industry standard pdf format (to ensure employers and recruiters see what I want them to see)
have a featured resume daily for employers and recruiters to ensure everyone's resume eventually gets seen.
that about covers it.
They're using their grammar skills there.
Is that job sites are not designed to get employers and employee's together. Instead they are designed to keep them appart until one or both parties (depending on the site) cough up the necessary dough to "see" a little of what the other offers. More effort has gone into hiding one from the other than has gone into enabling one to see the other.
I'm sorry, I'm to tired to be witty at the moment so this message will have to do.
Also, how about maybe having a "Powered by Google Maps/Earth" feature or whatever to make it easier to find out exactly where the company is - or if they are recruiting for a job on the West coast when its East coast or if its half way across the county - I'd sure as hell take a job 20 or 40 minutes away a lot sooner than a full hour or hour and a half (unless maybe the farther one paid a lot more)...
Job sites make it incredibly easy for clueless HR people to set up a filter for skills X, Y, and Z. Know a lot about X and Y but not much about Z? Well, you either have to lie about it or get filtered out by a computer!
My other beef with job sites is the lack of standardization for the application process. The job site should be able to collect the relevant information and pass it on to the hiring manager. When I click "apply now" I should not be taken to some other e-HR site to enter all my information AGAIN and submit my resume AGAIN. Just make it work!
Lastly, the blatantly bogus listings for the work-from-home scams or ads with insufficient details (like, say, the actual employer). Please.
Nathan
In the area I'm in I see this one company in particular repost the same 4 or 5 jobs every few weeks on DICE, etc. At least 3 of these positions are approximately the kind of IT position one person with the skill set for one job would have suitable skills for the other 2 or 3 positions. Like "System Engineer" and "Data Engineer" or some invented job title.
Now it's not like the company JUST started doing this. It has been going on for years--like at least 3 years.
I applied for these positions twice in this time period, both times when I was out of work--and I've been back in IT for over 3 years now after being out for 6 months. I won't toot my own horn but I easily qualified for any one of these jobs. Never a call back, never an email, never a response. OK, fine, so I'm not good enough--but reposts of the same jobs for at least 3 years? In that period of time, especially when the dot-com downswing was on full tilt, there had to be dozens and possibly hundreds of likewise highly qualified but unemployed or underemployed IT professionals like me out there. It would be brain-dead easy to fill such positions when the middle-tier talent pool (5-8 years experience) was so glutted.
Now that things have picked up (more or less--in this area, anyway) for IT, if only through attrition, these same jobs show up again and again.
Some have said companies post jobs to give the appearance that they are healthy when in fact that are not hiring at all and all resumes immediately go to the round file. I have a strong suspicion this is what happens with this company, though that wouldn't seem to apply since the company never posts its name along with its ads. Given that, it's just an irritating thing to see these fictional postings out there. The postings should be moderated like Craigslist, but DICE, Monster, Careerbuilder, etc. would probably never allow it because the posting fees are their bread-and-butter. Craigs has so much cash flowing in now from job postings, it can afford to lose an occasional moderated post and refund the money. DICE, etc. should go for quality over quantity so the experience is good for the CONSUMER of the site, not just to leech income off the "companies" that post.
I know a few recruiter/head hunters have found me using some technology that searches the web for resumes. (Hint - Set up a web page and put your resume there.) I even got spammed by one. He had his introduction letter automated. It was even automated for replies I believe. After I received the same letter three times, I complained and they stopped coming.
A better technology than all the online job boards would be one that searches the internet for your resume. Maybe this would be a google resume search. If you have a useful website, your resume would probably be higher in the rankings. I don't know -- it's a start. In the mean time, I've just started applying to everything that's even remotely related to my skills.
What if instead of banning recruiters, job applicants that had an interview, a phone call or an email could leave their remarks against the offer.
Very qickly, could we lead to a ranking of good/bad recruiters on the website - A bit like ebay evaluations!
I find reed.co.uk a nice site
:)
Also while we are talking about jobs. What would you say is a good way to get your foot in the door with Unix administration.
The only experience I have is with my home computers. but none the less im a whiz at alot of the stuff i do.
I have no certs (as of yet!)
Thanks
Just to be wacky I'll post what I look for, I want jobs for an expert with my experience and skillset that specifically want someone to do a certain job, freelance, and it can be done off-site. Jobs for a creative, experienced freelance programmer, requiring good communication and experience, but specifically not requiring a geographical location nearby or even in the U.S. I tried other sites and they didn't work. It seems wierd because I know these jobs exist, and I get them when I spend time selling myself to companies. If I for example have a good deal of experience in a specific area, with products I've made and great clients, then I ought to be able to beat out a college kid, a Chinese programmer, or an Indian outsourcer. Like jobs.perl.org.
Whoz thinking about fun when all you need is a job and you are faced with morons and recruiters. Its not about the color of a site, stupid. If i need jokes, ill go to a joke site. The problem with you guys is, for you, jobs are a joke, which is true to a large extent, but for gods sake dont make it evidently so...
Let job seekers flag posted jobs as "Interesting", "Improbable" etc.
That gives everyone useful information, including those who post jobs.
--- Attorneys Assisting Citizen-Soldiers & Families -
Some share of money what they earn out of me
How about a moderation system so all the recruiters get (-1, Redundant) or (-1, Troll) so we can actually find a job instead of an ad to an ad to an ad to some two-bit worthless temp agency.
Help us build a better map!
1) universal coverage : I am listed on 7, count'em seven, different job sites. It is a royal pain having to check each of these every day. I want one site, an aggregator site perhaps, that really does list 95%+ of the jobs in my area. .pdf, give them a taste of thier own medicine. (municipal level jobs here are often listed as .pdf since they just use thier document management system to scan in the same piece of paper the tech handed to the HR dept, who in turn listed it on the sites and with the JobBank)
2)in-depth local coverage : the reason I belong to seven sites is because in my field and at my level, some of the best opportunities never get listed with the national level sites. There are good, industry or region specific websites that list jobs that Monster and the like will never see.
3) BAN the use of "company confidential" in want ads. I want to know who I am applying to. At bare minimum, professional standards suggest that I direct a personalized letter to the HR head honco, highlighting things not covered in the resume, or showing how my skills directly apply to that firm. Obviously, I can't do that if I have no friggin' clue who I am dealing with now can I?
4) Every company must have a blurb/profile of some kind listed on the site in order to post jobs.
5) Potential employees should be allowed to post feedback on these companies. (There is a tech recruiter in Oshawa, Ont. Canada that I would love to post a few harsh words about) E-bay and Amazon manage to do OK with that idea.
6) use industry standardized job descriptions. I believe that both Canadian and American federal gov'ts keep lists of jobs with thumbnail descriptions for just such a reason. Granted; in the tech sector, new jobs and descriptions often pop up very quickly, faster than a gov't agency can keep up with. However, it would be a starting point. For new descriptions, allow companies and registered potential employees to maintain a wiki of job related terms and job descriptions.
7) Allow the use of an *accurate*, relational boolean keyword search. I for one am tired of searching using the key terms network, administration and server and getting a handful of techie jobs buried in a pile of accounting, managerial and other jobs simply because *one* of my words happened to appear. Worse yet, NONE of my words appear anywhere in the ad, yet it gets included in the results anyway. (I'm looking at YOU jobshark.ca) My ex-girlfriends angelfire personal homepage has a Google search in it, why can't yours?
8) actually have a human being *read* support e-mails, not just have a 'bot skim through and send me the form letter du jour based on a few keywords, directing me to the FAQ's/self help pages (I'm *still* looking at you Jobshark!).
9) don't limit resumes to two pages, cover letters to 800 chars. These conventions are based on real people having to wade through real paper. Lets face the fact that the vast majority of companies are using 'bots to skim through the slew of applications a nation-wide posting can generate. These 'bots are comparing my resume to a stored meta-resume. If I get enough checkmarks, my resume gets passed on to a human. Given the wide range of degrees, certifications and so on, it makes sense to let me do a traditional one or two page resume, and then append a couple more pages stuffed full of keywords for the 'bots to flag. If websites can do it to boost their chances, why can't I?
I'll list a RCA or CCNA on the human pages and do the long forms : Red Hat Certified Administrator and Cisco Certified Network Administrator : on the 'bot pages. For that matter, let me post my resume as a
10) while I am dreaming here, gimmie an RSS feed option instead of e-mailed alerts. It would be slightly more useful to me than the e-mails, and to my mind way cooler besides.
I need a wheelchair van for my son. Help me get the word out. https://www.gofundme.com/wheelchair-van-for-jj
I'll post again when I finally wake up.
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
a lot of HR types haven't the foggiest idea of what most buzzwords are from any particular field. In particular, for the programming field, there are a number of cases where a job's requirements are ambiguous, and in others they are overly specific. They pretty much just try to match up requirements without understanding really what they are.
Non sequitur: Your facts are uncoordinated.
Interesting reading, these comments. Many of the problems people have with the current job sites were addressed by a former employer of mine, flipdog.com. Pity flipdog was acquired by monster.com and then killed. Ahh, well, c'est la vie.
for your blunt, brutal, no bullshit job advice, served daily: http://www.job-secrets-revealed.com/latest/
(disclosure -- i write some of the articles there.)
From my Monster account I only got a dozen or so recruiters and only a few of them (less than a handfull) even bothered to include my name into the boilerplate e-mail text.
Looking for job postings on Monster myself; I can find more suitable and better paying IT jobs reading the local newspaper.
Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
Most job sites are companies seeking people that don't have to have any particular skill, just be "good enough" for a specific job. You'll often find decent jobs, with benefits, but you'll NEVER get rich looking for a job at such places, regardless of your skill level. It's a meat market, with very little fat left over for pickings.
The really good jobs are handed out by executives talking to executives. People who say, over lunch/dinner/golf something like "I'm looking for a NNN, do you know anybody?". If you can be whomever is named 10 seconds after such a question, you are looking at the dream job. At this point, being convenient and "good enough" so that they don't have to worry about it, is very good reason to hire you. Once they have to go thru the hassle of reading 27,000 resumes and interviewing 47 people, whoever they hire is going to start off on the wrong foot, simply because of the hassles involved in hiring.
Make sure to be damned good at what you do, and be just as good about letting everybody around you know that, without coming off like a prick or a primadonna. Make sure that, when you're looking for work or contracts, that those who know how good you are know that. And, leave your name/business cards everywhere you can.
That referral is golden - when you get it, you'll end up with customers/employers who don't mind paying you well, and offer you smiles, thanks, and appreciation you while they hand you your check.
But, once you get to the job site, there's nothing special about you, and it's soooo much more difficult to find the cream!
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
Instead of searching 15 different websites you can use simplyhired.com to do it for you.
Some sort of standardization in term definition, plus enforcement, would be really nice. I swear I've done searches for jobs with varieties of keywords with "entry level" (plus permutations) in a hopeless effort to weed out the thousands of senior level job openings that need 10-15 years of experience, only to come up with page after page of "entry level job [...] need 10-15 years of experience" in the postings. Yes, I KNOW that apparently "entry level" can also mean "low end of our company", not just "new to the workforce", but come ON, now.
So, enforcement of terms/keywords. As well as search engines that can detect negations ("entry level people need not apply", "no recent college grads", "You're from Michigan and you want a tech job? Good one, corn boy!") or other things that would cause immediate problems ("only local job seekers need apply" on a posting from the San Francisco area when I am logged in as being from Southeastern Michigan). Sure, these might be hard to ascertain from the posting alone, but perhaps having a list of common elements ("only local to city/state/province/zip code X", "will pay for relocation", "no entry level") with radio buttons during the job posting part would do the trick for the search.
Better checking for expired job postings wouldn't hurt, either. And would it kill them to require a contact address/email/phone/fax that someone actually pays attention to?
Sorry, past fruitless experience and bitterness and all. I'm better now. Maybe I ought to post this anonymous.
I want a social networking site that is oriented toward jobfinding, and that works. So far, there are social networking sites that purport to be all about helping people connect with jobs, but LinkedIn and their ilk aren't quite there yet. They're moving in the right direction, but it still has the feel of a Monster-type site with the social network info bolted on.
The hard truth is that none of the job-hunting sites are much better than a newspaper ad. You can search and match and quantify all you want, but at the end of it all, you'll still using a process that relies on an attempt to quantify human characteristics. If you are a non-traditional employee in some way, or if you are the kind of person who motivates teams very well, or if you are someone who can put out fires extremely well, during the initial vetting process your means of conveying these strengths are very limited.
This is just as frustrating for companies that are offering jobs. Managers looking for new hires vary in what they are looking for, obviously, but it is particularly frustrating if you are attempting to hire the right kind of person first, and the right position fit second. Management books frequently talk about hiring people who will fit with your team, people who can learn the specifics of the job, but have the overall aptitude and personality that make the most sense for the long haul. I've hired people who didn't know a damned thing about the specifics of their job, but excelled over people who had years of experience but the wrong attitude.
Currently the process, despite all of the wonderful bells and whistles, is still flawed. Employers can't find out much at all from a resume, and everyone knows they are really just used dispositively. If I am sifting through 100 resumes to find the ten people I need to interview, those resumes that have typos, or look goofy, or bother me for some other reason get tossed. Now that it's all being done online, there are more resumes to deal with, and you're still left with the nagging possibility that your evaluative criteria (must have 35 years Java development experience!) are excluding a few job hunters who might be perfect for your organization. I really would like to see some sort of combination of social networking and the kind of relationship analysis that dating sites are now embracing. Yes, that sounds absurd, but the psychological dimension of work is extremely important, and people who study relationships are far ahead of most management theorists in understanding how individuals relate to each other.
The factory model is supposedly dead and gone, a relic of the industrial age. Corporate America has moved into a new age where employees are freelancers and companies are scrambling to find the best talent. But how is that struggle defined? Look at Monster.com and see how you are forced to fit yourself into the tidy little boxes that their system requires. I don't think that sort of approach is more than an incremental improvement over the bad old days of searching the want ads every Sunday.
For now, personal networks still trump any other means of finding a job.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
Good question - it took me years of outsourcing work to find a reliable and efficient web frontend that contained an abundant developer community. I ran across guru.com by luck and have used them ever since. They provide the most ideal web based frontend for project developers - while they do have that annoying "gold, platinum" other such nonsense that the un-enlightened tend to use - their graphic-less website with simple CSS layout provides a refreshing UI that puts you directly in touch with those whom you are working with.
My Thoughts, Kyndig
I would prefer that job websites support some sort of standard resume document format (HR-XML, for example, though I am making no judgements about that specific standard).
:)
If they did, then I could maintain my resume myself, creating it once and updating once per change and then uploading it to the various job websites.
Instead, I need to use each job website's web interface to enter my resume, and then I need to keep each of these different versions updated over time.
If there was a popular standard XML based format, then job websites wouldn't be needed. Google could grab it off of my web site, understand how to parse it, and allow recruiters and and employers find to it through say jobs.google.com.
Perhaps that is why job websites haven't supported a standard format.
Resumes are still to far too much of a degree human parsable but not machine parsable. This makes it more time consuming for everyone involved.
I forgot to add, http://www.indeed.com/ is similar allthough not as extensive in its searches as http://www.simplyhired.com/ Both of these websites show the power of web 2.0 when applied to job searches.
still packed with headhunters though...
My days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle...
What I really hated about Monster was that they only accept resumes in the Microsoft Word format, seems that they dont have any jobs for people who don't like it. I even went so far to contact their customer support and got the answer almost too fast: no way .doc only, they wont even accept ASCII text. I guess they'll get what they ask for or do they simply have a contract with a certain enterprise...?
I have been guilty of sending resumes for a position I wasn't exactly qualified for but felt I could handle. You have put your finger on the reason and I didn't even know it. I thought they were as desperate as I was if they were listed on Monster.com. If they're so desperate, surely they would take me, and there's no harm in asking.
Just yesterday I was looking on Monster just trying to find something with a low amount of years of work experience and/or at my current academic level. But, much to my surprise, I couldn't specifically search on this at all! Even when it is actually mentioned in the job offers, so I have to filter out by manually scrolling past all the >3 years work experience jobs.
Do you guys at Indeed have this 'advanced search' option? I don't know your site, since I'm living in Europe where Monster generates a lot of advertizing (maybe that's why they don't have money to spend on software development).
Or, if you don't offer this, maybe you can explain why these advanced searches are not possible. It seems so strange, a second hand car I can buy based on how far the offer is from my house, the mileage of the car, the age of the car, type, etc. etc. But for a job you just have to search through the big heap. Now what may be a cause is that one might easily limit too much, finding no jobs at all. But I guess everyone will be smart enought to start specific and search more general until they find something.
molmod.com - computing tips from a molecular modeling
I check jobbank.gc.ca regularly, and they're a pretty big offender for allowing postings with keyword spam, contradictory requirements, and other such nonsense.
I've seen postings on that website for jobs that are "Full-Time/Part-Time/Temporary/Permanent" and require you to work "Day/Evening/Weekend". Of course you'll be rewarded handsomely with a salary of "to be negotiated". Job websites need to enforce some sort of rules on employers like:
1. Submission software that's smart enough to know that a job can't be both part time and full time, nor both temporary and permanent.
2. If an employer is looking for someone with x credentials or y certification, make sure that information is put in the corresponding section of the posting and not under some vague "other information" heading near the bottom.
Perhaps much of the fault should fall on the employers who are posting the job, but the job site should intervene enough to make sure a posting is logical, coherent, and spelled/formatted properly.
Job web sites? Well perhaps you can use a job web site for your first job, but other than that I consider those sites totally useless. Some exceptions aside, interesting jobs that require real professionals are generally not advertised this way.
I want accountability from recruiters. More than half of the postings on any given site are by recruiters or agencies, and my bet is that most of thir postings are merely meant to suck up resumes; the jobs don't actually exist. I want to see a feedback system or the like in place, whereby if recruiters aren't actually filling the jobs they list, they don't get to post jobs anymore on that site.
Yeah, I'm getting awfully tired of applying for positions for which I am absolutely perfect and not even getting an interview, even when I follow up with the recruiter. Seriously; there was an ad a few months ago that nobody else in the province could have had qualifications as perfect as I do, the listing was that narrow. Nada.
If these recruiters are going to waste my time and the time of others, I want their ability to do business terminated.
www.kitchengeek.com -- Nosh for
Indeed.com will send you fresh job postings from around the web just about any way you can imagine:
I would like a website that is made specifically for PhD's and higher for the following reason:
- The job descriptors are extremely poor for scientists. The fact that you place a physical chemist in "Chemistry (general)" is ok, but in most places this option isn't even there. I'm forced to use "R&D specialist"
- In a related point, science jobs are very specific. You need a classification on research interest, not preferred industry. If I was looking a physical chemist I don't want an engineer in Unilever (Although there both listed as Chemists)
- Searching for jobs in a specific location is silly. As a scientist your stomping ground is the world (you'd be unemployed if you didn't). Position on Antarctica? Why not?
As a result, I have been enlisted for three years in several of these sites and haven't received a single hit.
Here's what I want:
A place where I enter my profile. What I am today, what I am looking for.
Companies likewise create profiles of open positions.
Then profiles are matched and matching profiles are notified. There's enough fuzzy logic, bayesian and other stuff available to ensure good matching even if the two sides don't use the same words.
Oh, and more honesty on the employers' side. I've been to a few interviews where jobs were advertised that sounded cool, only to find out what they're really looking for isn't exactly what they were advertising.
I have a safe job. If you are advertising something I care for because it sounds considerably better than what I have, you'd better live up to it or I'll be sorry I invested the time to visit you.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Every time I apply for an advertised job, I get a call from an agent. Most of the time, the agent makes no mention of the advertised job, and as far as I can tell it might not even exist (perhaps it would be better if I stopped batching applications). Then they call me at work and want to chat for half an hour about stuff that they should be able to get from the information I submitted.
Looking at other comments, I'm not the only one who feels this way.
Come to think of it, why do companies use these recruiters? If they're just going to submit the job ad to a recruitment website, the company might as well do itthemselves and not pay the commission.
entry level jobs
Guess what the reply email that I recieved 3 weeks later said? "I couldn't open your resume, can you send it in word?". Shit!
.doc. Congratulations, you now have a resume' in "Word". If you actually have Word available you can also save it as a Word document, so that you can get your very own fat core dump that is the Microsoft Word file format without really working in Word.
Take your HTML document. Change the extension to
1. Jobs
2. Actual reply _every_ time I apply for one of 1. A simple "Sorry, no" would be better than *silence*
3. Realistic requirements for jobs
As already noted, it'd be nice to have forum-type functionality so one can see "why" a job is open; if, for instance, a job is "open" because the people currently filling it are bailing out due to an impending layoff. (coughcoughAT&Tcoughcough)
:)
It'd also be nice to know how long a job posting has really been posted....a lot of times, companies that have turnover issues, and therefore, eternal openings, will simply re-jigger their listing so it looks "fresh".
In short, it is time for these sites to work for the jobseeker and not the employer. There's often reasons why a given position is open that have nothing to do with expansion.
1. Jobs that last longer than five weeks
2. Jobs that pay enough for food and electricity
That's a start.
Business isn't willing to pay for products, innovation and careers, so we get brands, mortgage commercials and layoffs.
I have job alerts set up on anumber of sites that happily send me ads when there are no new matches. Though some conveniently send me jobs outside my search criteria to make up for the ads I didn't ask for either.
Never let a mediocre career stand in the way of a good time
1. Ban recruiters.
2. Mandatory listing of zip code where job is located.
3. Mandatory listing of salary range.
4. Mandatory listing of hire date.
5. Feedback system from job hunters responding to interview/employment experiences.
6. "Percentage of listings hired via this website" telling is whether *this* employer hires from *this* site routinely for its listed postings (and thus whether to waste our time applying to them).
Right now, things are far too tilted toward employers/recruiters and as a result, the job sites are virtually useless. As a job hunter, you can't tell whether a job meets your salary requirements, whether it meets your time frame requirements, or whether it is even within a hundred miles of where you live, much less whether the job is a real job or just a headhunter/school/scam posting. There's so much noise it's rarely worth the time to try and track down one of the very few and far between "good" listings.
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
It was only a matter of time before not only the jobs were outsourced, but the recruiters were outsourced as well. In my most recent search, I've received a huge percentage of calls from people that sound just like the "offsoure team" that I conference call during status meetings. What is the thought process here? If you can't be good at what you do, maybe you can identify someone else that is....
Never let a mediocre career stand in the way of a good time
Until we get search engines that can determine meaning from context we are stuck as long as people keep naming their products in stupid ways.
We may joke about apple iXXX everything but at least it is easy to search for. MS is especially evil since it seems unable to name its products uniquely.
Oh and that is what I want in a job website. A search system that gets around it. After all the system knows the context, it is searching through jobs listings. Shouldn't be too hard to get people to list required skills in such a way that even current search technology can easily list only those that apply.
Of course that would only help if jobs didn't just list every skill they ever heard off.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
One simple feature for job sites: define the geographic region by area code. Not by city, not by euphemism (where does "peninsula" end and "south bay" begin?), but by fucking area code. Dice used to do this, was the only good thing about their site.
Remain calm! All is well!
I don't think that was the point. He doesn't want to have to use a Microsoft product. He's supplied three alternative sources, non of which comply to their REQUIREMENT of MS Word. And while I appreciate his position, I know that many recruiters and HR departments 1. don't want to have to go through a hundred resume's trying to figure out what program they need just to view each one, 2. sanitize the personal information like email address and phone number before passing it along to the hiring manager. I know what you're thinking for #1. But you've got to remember, HR people aren't educated in the million different ways to open a file. They're not going to just double click on a pdf document. They're going to open Word, then try to open resume.pdf, that's if they can find it.
Someone hates these cans.
Sorry, the whole premise of this article is false.
These sites exist ONLY to fulfill an employers legal requirement to "post" jobs publicly for a certain time period (varies by state) before they can hire whoever the heck they want to. Of course, you still have to hire the federal quota of women and minorities, but that's not an issue these days, since women and minorities have the skills too, and you can always just offshore.
So if you're looking for a job on these sites, instead of networking through friends and relatives... well, you're just a fool, sorry but you're going to have to go outside and get some friends.
Shocking huh.
- Adam L. Beberg - The Cosm Project - http://www.mithral.com/
Because that excludes people like me who are entirely self-taught. I know what you are talking about. I have more then once had to help people with diploma's coming out of there ears with the most basic stuff. Just last week I worked on a volunteer project that a couple of students had done where they had not done a single thing about security (putting get variables unchecked into an sql query, login over http). They stopped with the project because they had finished their internship and are now studiying for their exams.
They will probably pass. Despite the fact that their programming SUCKED!
I have seen this in commercial projects as well. That I a person who only learned by experimenting and reading knows more then the uni grad but is constantly slammed down in reviews for the lack of diploma's.
Last job I even lost because of it. I was the unofficial head of the web development department but when my manager left (head of the web business unit) it was decided to bring in someone new to be a proper IT manager. The guy had all the diploma's and could talk the talk but had no clue about how to actually run a website day to day. Yet I was supposed to work under him. I said thanks but no thanks. I am not going to earn less then a guy whose hand I am supposed to be holding. That wasn't the first time either.
Now don't get me wrong, I am no coding god. I just got a bit of common sense.
Sadly most bosses do not. I do not even respond anymore when a company asks for diploma X no matter how capable I might be of performing at that level.
Just ask for coding examples and look through them.
But hey it is easier to complain about employees then to question wether the problem perhaps lies with you. Of course I know where my own problem is. It is that I could not wait to get out of school and into real live.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Forget job sites that is not the way to go. There is a very good book What Color Is Your Parachute? that explaines the right way to do this. The most helpful website I have found is Linkedin
and agents, listen up!
when you do post a job opening as an agency, dont spend a full screen
of text advertising the standard boiler template about how great an agency
you are and, oh, look at our 150x300 pixel logo! *then* followed
by a two line, near zero information, job posting.
job posting FIRST, onanistic agency pumping second.
thank-you.
As a recruiter I'm surprised that people are so negative against us. I know there are some scumbags out there, but from the large amount of responses in post I'd guess that most of the "scumbag" recruiters are hanging out on the jobsites. Your job is a huge part of your life - many of us spend more time in our jobs than with our families. Personally, I think that people who go about finding a wife/ husband online are inviting danger and heartbreak. Finding a job is pretty much just as an important life decision as finding a partner, so I would n't recommed going online. If you choose to go the online way, you are inviting the same risks. Most good recruiters also feel the same way about the jobsites - the quality of the candidates on there isn't good. Quality candidates don't use them - because they don't need to. Finding a good recruiter isn't that difficult, once you have - build a relationship. Ask friends and colleagues who they used - most good recruiters get most of the ir business from referalls and thus don't need to use job sites. Look up a good firm that is local to you. I think smaller boutique firms often give better service. When you meet with the recruiter ask the important questions. How long have you worked with this company? How many people have you placed in this company? Who do you interact with in the company - a good recruiter sends the resume straight to line managers. You should get an idea if they know what they are doing. A good recruiter may not be able to answer technical questions correctly, but they should be able to open doors for you in to their clients.
An advert for a job that I can get over paid for while not actually having to work. The only ones I've found seem to require being elected, knowing someone or mystically getting on the board of a company (How the heck do these people get those directorships that require 1 day a week 'work' and pay six figures?).
Check out OpenSkills (http://openskills.org/).
OpenSkills turns things around and is run by the people with the CVs. The resume model in the SkillsBase is quite sophisticated, and resumes can be exported as HR-XML.
OpenSkills is funded by it's subscribers. It is free to search the SkillsBase and there is no charge for working with people found in the SkillsBase.
It's free to get started, $20AUD to subscribe and an OpenPGP key signed by two current members is required for membership.
HTH,
BTW, I'm the current chairman of the OpenSkills board.
If you ban recruiters, you will lose out on some top jobs. So the thing to do is to go to SBC/Yahoo!, IBM, the federal government in all its departments, CitiGroup (or whatever it's called now), and all the other fortune 50-500 companies, tell them to re-hire their HR departments, and do their own damned work screening tech recruits, rather than hiring firms that specialize in having half a clue. Yeah. Right.
Which brings me to "firms that specialize in having half a clue" -- I worked for a recruiting firm that DID have half a clue. Their CTO worked Cisco equipment on a high scale (was a former contractor for the firm), the CEO was a database programmer, and on & on. When they read a job description and can do half of what they're looking for, much less hire for it, it's one thing.
Other places are entirely clueless. The recruiters have been to their GED classes and know how to power on a computer and that's about it. The jobs rolling across their desk are as indecipherable to them as sanskrit texts are to me. My partner has been getting calls -- he's an RF engineer. The job requirements are alphabet soup to the recruiters -- they are more-than-clueless. They wouldn't know RF from a refrigerator.
So the problem isn't to ban recruiters, lest you ban great jobs. The problem is banning clueless recruiters.
How about a recruiting firm rating system? Allow job applicants to rate recruiters, and post the recruiter ratings and comments. People sick of clueless recruiters can filter them out.
---- I'm out of your mind!
some jobs where they dont require 3 years experiance... if every job needs 3 years experiance, how do you get the experiance in the first place?
portfolio
http://www.doostang.com/ is a another way, they use social networking so that the job posts you see are from people you trust. And for real job vacancies.
That way you can avoid the recruiters who spam the normal job boards with vague description to catch applications for non existant jobs.
It is not that relevant for me as it is mostly US jobs, but seems to be spreading their circle of friends so there are already the odd jobs across the pond.
My other Sig is very funny.
Since I'm currently located in Korea, I've tried this query on your site.
The results? The first page contains only links to a site called "BostonWorks" which does have the term "Korea" somewhere in an HTML option of the actual company.
But of the idiot who chose C as a name for a product. It is the same with menu product names that are also real words. Even happens with products that are not real worlds but have come in common use. PHP is of course also the extension used for php pages and so any search will not just return jobs requiring PHP but also jobs who got a url with php.
Heheh... I have a late 1960s Sound A-5000 stereo amplifier. I love the thing and have restored it completely; with a pair of Acoustic Research AR-4x and a modified SoundBlaster 16 ISA (yeah... pretty hard to find a new motherboard for it!), my computer's sound system is lovely.
One day, I got it into my head that there were probably schematics for my Sound A-5000 out there somewhere. Of course, searching the 'net was utterly futile.
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
I think you may have missed my point. When you rename resume.html to resume.doc, Windows will open it with Word, and it will display like any other document. No special knowledge on the part of the recruiter required. If fulfills the requirement of having a document readable in MS Word.
I've been doing it for years. Only once have I had a problem, when an HR droid asked me to (in her words) "remove the protection system [I] had on the document". I'm guessing this means their automatic address stripping macros would not work properly with this resume'.
Here's an idea I hit upon a while back that I think could / would work very well and solve all our problems. This idea is a little UK centric at the moment but it would work everywhere. If you find yourself out of work in the UK you can sign on for the jod seekers allowance (as long as you jump through all the right hoops etc etc yadda yadda). To do this you have to go to the Job Centre. One of the conditions of getting job seekers allowance is that you apply for a certain number of jobs and generally that you spend time looking for jobs at the Job Centre. The problem is that "Job Centre" is all but a dirty phrase in the UK and no "professional" will go near the place. This means that there are _no_ professional jobs listed ever. If you want a professional job you are stuck with scouring the papers and numerous bad jobs websites populated by head hunters. As we all know this takes an age and often means good jobs get missed. I would like to see a new law brought in that _all_ jobs _must_ be advertised in the Job Centre regardless of what the job entails. An employer is free to advertise the job elsewhere as well and do whatever they please it simply must be listed at the Job Centre. There are a number of reasons why I would completely support this legislation 1)it completely insane that we fund Job Centres throughout the country that are not servicing the needs of a huge portion of the population 2)it would give everyone a place where they can find a job 3)it would simplify fnding a job and hopefully as a result this would cut down the number of unemployed or at least the time people spend unemployed 4)it would probably have the side effect of removing many of the fly by night head hunters. I am interested to hear people thoughts on this idea both positive and negative. I might pass it on to our local MP as well even though I don't like the guy.
I used to have a better sig but it broke.
I get tired of seeing McJobs at job fairs, I get tired of seeing jobs that require you to give up having a family life, and I get tired of jobs that require God like skills and trying to get away with paying peanuts. If I say AS degree in computers I want an as degree job i qualify for. I do not want some recruiter to reply what so ever. In fact, I want a head hunter to starve as much as i do trying to get jobs that pay me a fair wage! Something CEO's of big companies refuse to do when they hire. Then there are the telemarketer jobs and debt collecting jobs, Truck driving jobs. The quality of the jobs being offered on a jobs board is utterly crap. This was using the careerbuilders.com jobs board. My AS degree in computer science might as well be toilet paper. I could not afford certificates beyond getting the degree and I could not afford a new PC or the programs that the corporate use every 1.5 years. Therefore, I can bury any chance I have of getting out of my personal hell, thanks to recruiters and so called Equal opportunity employers. When you are as deaf as I am no one seems interested in your skills.
With NYPD officers' salaries so low some have to apply for food stamps, I don't think that meets all of his requirements.
Now the nuclear power plant might be a good idea. I hear of this one guy who hardly does any work and has a great home, a beautiful wife, got to meet Jimmy Carter and be an astronaut...
There have been some good answers so far:
must include company name
mandatory salary ranges
must give desired fill date
search jobs within given distance of arbitrary location
Someone said:
> find a way to penalize recruiters who post non-existant jobs
> for resume collection.
The ideal job site would be symmetrical -- as much a repository
of talent as of jobs. With appropriate search capabilities over
resumes, listing a filled or fake job should be pointless.
Like craigslist, it should be funded by employers rather than
applicants (that includes selling ads for us to watch). This
also makes life hard for recruiters.
Posts could vanish after the "desired fill date". To encourage
applicants, fill dates could still not be set too far ahead.
I'd like to add:
suggest-a-job feature, ala Amazon
'people who applied to this job also applied for...'
'most popular jobs among people like you...'
don't be trendy
please, god, no tags
please god no social networking
foster dialog about jobs
"more like an interview"
avoid structured resumes, structured job listings
ie 'willing to travel = 75% of time'
create a culture that discourages laundry lists
To offset standard job description BS, require that posts
show a small org tree centered around the job. Offer an
ajax tree-constructor tool to make the trees' appearance
uniform. Require at least two nodes, with a title and one-
line description at each node. In addition, require all of
an employer's jobs be shown in his trees, up to some large
number (like 20). Nodes are clickable.
every job gets a number
differentiates multiple openings with the same title
access via http://domain.com/number
have posts solicit problem-solving
'We're building the world's best ___ system, and we plan to
dedicate a person just to do testing of its ___ function.
How would you do this? Is this really a full-time job?'
replies
visible reply rate for each position
'BetterWidgets has replied to 82 of 1005 responses about
this job, and 390 of 24,000 responses about all of their
jobs since October 2004.'
Well I just don't like human resource people with no knowledge of what they are recruiting, i.e. people who have people skills instead of computer skills when finding software developers. I once contacted a recruiter looking for C++ programmer. I hadn't programmed a lot in C++ but I had mastered the technique of object oriented programming (focusing mostly on Java). When I said that I had much experience with object oriented programming and the syntax shouldn't matter the recruiter actually said: "No we are looking for a C++ programmer not someone who knows object oriented programming".
No funds? So you expect someone to do the screening work and give you free access to it online? Keep on dreaming.
To all the employers / managers out there complaining about receiving CVs that don't have the required skills, I'll say this: It's because supply and demand aren't matching up.
A few years ago I was unemployed and desperately searching for a job. All I saw was advert after advert for jobs that required more skills than someone in my position (newly graduated) could possibly have. What was I meant to do? Naturally, I looked for the jobs that were the closest match and applied for them, whether or not I had all the 'required' skills.
If you employers are going to complain about the lack of suitably skilled people, you had better be taking on a few 'youngsters' for training. If you're so miserly that you won't train people, don't bloody expect them to train themselves! It's a matter of civic duty - if you don't "do you bit", the entire country's skill pool is going to decline.
Fortunately, I eventually got a job through a family contact and have since been developing code for an embedded control system.
/* This sig is disabled. Press CTRL-W to enable. Thankyou */
These agents don't seem to be as "intelligent" as an online agent is supposed to be.
1). The agents should stop sending me the same position day after day. A simple "no thanks" click should filter the position out. Heck, some job sites redisplay the next month, after I've applied to the position already. Thay ask me if I want to reapply, so the system knows I've applied, so why show me the position.
2). Some decent functioning filters are needed. Case in point, I have the instrumental skills, and the experience requested by the position, but not the degrees (M.S. or Ph.D.) requested. Applying to that position will actually cause a recruiter to write back, "You do not meet the education requirements for this position." Trying to filter out those jobs doesn't always work. Even the online searches on Monster and others don't always allow me to filter out this most basic and easy to see (for the human resources rep) criterion.
I want a "rating" system. I want to be able to see what my peers said about the person and the company. Think EBay. He wants a job, he's probably been to interviews. What can the interviewer say about him? Is his resume valid? Or is it padded? Or a fabrication?
.net experience. Especially not someone under 25. According to some requirements, you should've started to code (professional) no later than at 10 years of age. But still managed to make your MD in CS.
Same the other way 'round. Is the job offered really the job offered? Or did you get a "sorry, this position is filled but..." reply for a crappy job? Was it really a recruiter? And if so, is the recruiter legit or one of those that try to shovel people around for money?
Ratings is what I want!
And what I'd also love to see is realistic expectiations. You simply WILL NOT find someone with 10+ years of professional
Also, most employees are more than willing to learn. Yes, there are very few ABAP proggers with 5+ years of experience, and those that exist will charge you a fortune. I bet my rear that you will find a lot more people willing to sign any adhesion contracts binding them to you for years as long as you're willing to train them. For a LOT less than training them costs you.
But of course, all companies wait 'til the very last moment before hiring someone. I have not ONCE been hired when the roof wasn't on fire already. It's NOT really what I consider a dream job when you get like 2 days to familiarize yourself with a few megs of source before you're pressed into the schedule.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Somewhat tangential to the actual question, but I want recruiters who don't look at my "unix administration" custom resume and ask me if I have 5 years of Active Directory experience.
Less clutter - compliance with W3C standards, and a site that looks more like Google than Yahoo.
Organised job descriptions - rather than just a big gob of text for each job, I want to see separate fields filled in. Some fields that come to mind are: name of employer, country, city, town/suburb, phone number, email address, position name, job description, required attributes for candidates, desirable attributes for candidates, level of experience required, expected salary as a range. There are probably others, too.
No company logos or other images.
A good search tool that allows users to search based on pretty much all of the fields that employers are required to fill.
No duplicate listings.
Has anyone noticed some larger companies have started farming out their recruiting departments? Not using agencies, but using outside recruiters who are corresponding with email addresses from within the company's domain so as to make it appear they're internal employees? *cough* Google *cough* Yahoo *cough* Juniper *cough*
Has anyone ever taken a stable job from any of these useless sites? I wasted about a year looking for real work and coming up with shit on dice, flipdog, justunixjobs, etc. Lots of idiot recruiters trying to shoehorn me into their available positions (for which I had 0 experience and for which there was no training available), but no jobs. Every job I've ever taken was through direct contact with the hiring company and through friend/business networking.
I want sites to send emails containing jobs matching search criteria.
Jobsite and JobServe do it, PlanetRecruit and Monster don't. I don't want to spend all day trawling through several websites, I want my little CGI script at home to combine everything into one. One that I can apply more advanced filtering to which shows me just the jobs I want.
I know several people who also don't use PlanetRecruit (any more) or Monster due to the lack of emails from them. Even without my funky CGI, it's so much quicker to read through a 1 MB email from start to finish than browse pages 1 to 50 of some search
hey, thanks for the informed, polite commentary & constructive feedback. uh, not.
;)
personally, i appreciate a friendly interaction regardless of whether the task i'm performing is simple or complex. but if you prefer, there's plenty of other sites out there that are dry & impersonal. go for it.
on the other hand, i take issue with your remark our approach somehow implies we're not serious. it's certainly possible to be relevant as well as human. whether or not you appreciate the humor, we've spent the last few years building a site which indexes job listings from all over the web, provides a number of different features for managing market research on companies & people connected with the job, and in general helps people find jobs they might otherwise not come across. most folks seem to like our approach.
but if all you're looking for is data & functionality -- well, we got your jobs right *here*, know what i mean?
hey, even google & yahoo have a sense of personality. not everyone needs a HAL 9000 around to make sure they're being taken seriously.
- Dave McClure mailto:dave@simplyhired.com
The irony of the situation is that most job sites could really do with a technology overhaul to enable the jobs to be more accurately matched to candidates. In order to do this, they'll need to recruit developers which, itself, would require a technology overhaul. Ah well, at least they got recursion worked out (even if it is infinite recursion!) Seriously though, I've lost track of the number of positions that I've been presented with which bear no resemblance to my posted CV. Approaches made by recruiters are even worse - many of them giving me no impression that they've even read my CV (thereby justifying any commission that they may earn out of the process)
Here's a short list:
;-)
Resumes must be submitted in MS Word format?
Granted, this requirement is almost always from some scum recruiter that can't handle more than 2 applications, mail & MS Word, (and should thus be an identifying clue). I *wish* the bloody recruiters would accept PDF, or even an HTML page which I can present myself better with; folks hiring me are hiring for a documentation specialist after all.
Yeah, I know. They want to remove identifying information. Again, refer to that above paragraph. Acquire a PDF, html, or God forbid a text editor.
Then of course it is nice when the recruiters that found me via a *search* actually read the context of the written resume to see if the yield was valid. Saves everyone time and energy, no?
Then there's the nothing bigger than ~150K upload rule.
Of course those that require completing a custom form w/ job history, etc.; as opposed to simply uploading the source-content resume file, well they just suck. Yes, I'm talking about you Monsterboard!
Why can't these recruiters/ HR sites 'search' various formats; and place the burden of 'quality' on the candidate? By allowing the candiate the possibility to single-source, the candidate might stand a chance in doing so.
Finally, I'd much prefer to see an aggregate that fed directly into the corporate HR sites themselves; bypassing those bloody agents. As it stands now, the best bet is to deal directly with the multitude of HR sites directly (bypassing both the job sites *and* agents); albeit the resourceful geek will find a way to automate this task.
You can't be ahead of the curve, if you're stuck in a loop.
http://www.careerbeacon.com/ is a decent site if you are in/want to be in Atlantic Canada.
What do I want?
.net or java and get a bunch of names, phones and emails, nothing more. No address, no resume, zilch. That means they have to call you and use social engineering to extract that information from you.
1. No more cold calls
2. No more cold calls
3. No more emails that serve the same purpose as a cold call
Why?
I have been in the workforce since 1992. After serving in the US Army from 1992-1997, I have found every job I have held through an online job service. My first civilian job was thru OCC, which eventually became part of monster.com. After four jobs I have learned a lot about the most common abuse of the job sites: cold calling.
These do a search for
How can you tell?
Because the "recruiter" will open by saying he ran into your resume online, then goes to explain about the "opportunities" and finally asks for a fresh copy of your resume in word format. That's your cold caller right there.
Another way to tell is because they are not buzzword compliant. There are tons of good recruiters out there, and they go through the trouble to learn the jargon of their market. When a recruiter calls you for a J2EE spot when your resume has ASP written all over it, that's a problem. When even after you explain it to him he still tells you he can't grasp how it is possible that a guy could spent 7 years programming for the web without using J2EE, there's something really wrong.
I think it is time that the job boards stop offering this kind of information for free, because all they are doing is driving us all crazy.
Pedro
----
The Insomniac Coder
I want Dice.com.
:)
No, seriously, while it doesn't fix all the problems slashdotters list, it does handle many of them. I get a legit list of new positions in my inbox every day of the jobs that actually meet my criteria, it handles my requirments as a small independant contractor well, and it's easy to navigate and use.
If it would just include a way to electro-zap the nutsack of any recriuter that asks me about positions that are clearly out of the scope of what I list as my requirements, then I'd be in heaven.
-Tom
I want a job posting site where I can pick up a girl, buy stuff, bid on ebay, read latest news, watch stupid but funny videos, play flash games, check my email, and do other stuff that makes me forget that I need to get a job.
maybe he just wanted one he could easily change to "improve" it?
However, speaking as an employer, we (i.e. the company I work for) generally don't have a specific salary in mind. We pay according to the candidate, not the job, so it is hard to give a meaningful number.
If we think you're a good candidate we'll try and negotiate an appropriate salary range for you. That will depend on your specific skills and experience more than it depends on the role we're trying to fill.
Read more of this story at Slashdot.Read more of this story at Slashdot.Read more of this story at Slashdot.
Could not agree more. Sort the sheep from the goats.
...I don't have a quarrel with them. The recruiters that drive me nuts are the ones that don't clearly state they are a third-party, or who are slightly misleading about the position or about themselves.
THE REAL PROBLEM with job web-sites are the scam-ola "internships" and "Entry-level networking" scams... The job-sites KNOW these companies are just pitching training (that YOU pay for,) but they continue to list these fraudulent ads over and over and over again. If you could setup some kind of "crap-filter"--sort of like Slashdot's "lameness" filter--you might really have something. An effective, accurate way to see only legitimate ads would set your job-site head and shoulders above the rest. DICE, CareerBuilder, Monster.com, all suffer from "Learning Network" ads in nauseating quantities, to the point where looking at them is an exercise is skepticism: Instead of thinking "Would I be a really good fit for this position?" you are forced to wonder "Is this a real ad or an attempt to leech $1500 out of 'IT students' for training that will get them very little, if anything."
Who did what now?
There are like 80 different marketing terms for computer programmer. I don't want to have to check programmer, developer, software engineer, software analyst, computer analyst, systems analyst, ... ad nauseum. They are the exact same job, computer programmer. I'm also sick of sites that lump IT possitions with computer programming. Yes, there is overlap in experience but they are entirely different kinds of job.
I just did a search for Sound Engineer for grins. Nothing close on the first page. Lots of matches for Engineer, but nothing related to the sound recording or broadcast industry.
Google does better. I did a search for Sound Engineer Job and had matches on the first page.
The truth shall set you free!
There is a profile matching site out there that was launched recently - mkt10.com - it is new but it shows promise. It even does skills matching based on a taxonomy of discipline-related skills, and it is very tech-oriented.
I run the recruitment website http://www.staff.ie
We already limit agency jobs (5% of postings) and try to keep things clean and simple.
Next week we'll be adding the following. Can I have your opinons please?
/start/ We review all job applications before the employer gets to see them. This allows us to remove duplicates, junk, and applications which are clearly not suitable for the job (lack of experience, qualifications, specific languages, etc.)
Whenever we reject a job application we're going to automatically send an e-mail to the jobseeker explaining why his job application was rejected and what he can do to fix the problem (if it can be fixed - i.e. re-apply and attach your CV!)
Rejected and accepted job applications are kept in the employers account. /end/
Would you find the above helpful or just annoying?
Thanks
Once a week or so I get a call from someone saying they saw my resume on moster.com. I haven't been looking for a new job in 9 months, and have long since deactivated/removed my resume from all the job search web sites. But just like trying to get MS Messenger or IE out of Windows, its always still in there even when you think it's gone. Recruiters, please stop bugging me at work! I'm no longer looking! Sheesh. There should be a national monster.com "Do not call" list.
I've been hunting for a job a few years ago. And I was quite stunned when I saw the expectations. Years and years of experience, degrees, certificates and so on. At first, I didn't apply. I thought they wouldn't take me anyway, since I couldn't fulfill all those requirements (a few, a lot, almost all, but never all).
Until I realized that this doesn't matter at all. People just slap a ton of requirements on a page and actually it seems they expect that someone who applies can't even come close to them. Instead, I get the impression the requirements are used as a way to intimidate the applicant and try to convince him that a lower salary is quite acceptable, since he didn't really meet the requirements.
And as long as this prevails, you will get sub-par qualified people applying, simply because they think it doesn't matter anyway. When you expect the impossible, people will assume that you don't really expect anything at all and will apply.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
I noticed your godgab website lists "buddhism" as a religion. It is not religion. it is a philosphopy.
The Buddha was a temporal, mortal man.
Please stop insulting Buddhist by associating their practices with those theists who suspsend reason (religions).
Thanks.
Dimensions may include, but are not limited to:
Culture
Benenfits
Comptencies
Obvious challenges include data maintenance and privacy. How to let an individual give comment without devolving into http://www.fuckedcompany.com/, and without fear of reprisal, and yet avoid a stuffed ballot-box syndrome, or overly self-selective responses, is an exercise left to a Wharton whiz-kid. Probably need a low subscription fee.
Having solved all of those challenges, though, it would be genuinely interesting to see which soul-sucking Dilbert-bins would implode due to inability to vacuum up fresh talent...
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
1. I should be able to search though just job titles, if I so chose. For example, if I search on keyword "Linux" I only want jobs where "Linux" is the job title, not jobs where Linux is just thrown in as one of the 30 nice-to-have-as-an-extra requirements.
2. After all these years, I should be able to search for comptia certs on dice.com. As it is now, the "+" doesn't work on dice.
3. Dice should stop "recycling" jobs on a daily basis. For example, employers can pay to have the same job constantly re-listed as if were just posted today. The same job gets re-posted dozens of times.
4. Monster's online resume is an abomination. It looks *awful*. Let people post/send the resume that way want.
5. Dice, more than all the other major sites, has the right idea with resume sending. I just want to send my resume as an attachment. I don't want all these choices like "send an existing resume" which actually takes you to some "create a resume" only "feature." I don't want to be forced to create and save cover letters. I don't want to have to re-title my resume for every job that I apply to.
6. Like many others, I am also sick of training schools masquerading as jobs.
7. Monster is completely carried away with obtrusive advertising. For example: you apply for a job, you are presented with a form to fill out. Then you find it's application for some sort of training school.
8. Companies should be forced to post a salary range. And basic information about the company.
9. Temp agencies, which often call themselves "consulting companies." Should be in a seperate catagory. Or, at least, I should be able to chose only real, primary, employers.
If someone would just come up with standard titles for real programmers/Computer Scientists so that I didn't have to go through all the similar fields and skim over Civil Engineering and Systems Adminsitrator want ads.
Also, Monster's location search sucks and thinks that no one in my part of Georgia would ever want to hire or work in this area, b/c my area is not listed in their stupid menu. Everywhere that is is 100 miles away. I had to look at all of those and pick out the ones that were actually closer to where I live.
Job sites should work like a video dating organization I once belonged to:
1. Either party (job seeker or employer) can express interest in the other but all contact is mediated by the job site.
2. The person being solicited gets a chance to review the information about the other party.
A job seeker would be told if it is a recruiter, who the company is, salary range, city, etc.
An employer would similarly get more information about the job seeker.
Each person has some control over what is revealed but certain things are minimal (like recruiter/employer, current degree).
3. If the person solicitied says no, that's i -- no further contacts on that job
Neither party makes direct contact until they both agree.
Ideally the system learns and filters or flags inappropriate requests like junk email.
"Most good recruiters also feel the same way about the jobsites - the quality of the candidates on there isn't good. Quality candidates don't use them - because they don't need to." It's comments like that that show your total lack of understanding. Quality candidates are forced to use online job sites, but you are too narrow minded to see that. There is the obvious of moving to a new area, which is hugely difficult without online job sites. What you aren't factoring in is very tight job markets like telecom. It's not that hard to find what big companies are in an area, but there are lots of upstarts and smaller scale companies that short of word of mouth, you aren't going to find out about. This just gets magnified when dealing with an out of state move. To make a sweeping statement, to not even include the word "most" in your comment about quality candidates, just shows how you really feel about the heads you place, that's all they are, heads.
Why is no one talking about benefits? If you don't have domestic partner benefits don't waste my time. If I can't wear jeans (and preferably PJs) then I don't want to go into the office very often. Et cetera.
Also, I want to search by tech level of company.
-Everyone is on IM/Skype/can fix their own computers.
-We use email fluently.
-If it's not on paper then it doesn't exist.
I ditto everyone else on showing salary instead of the "based on experience" crap. You either know what the job is worth or you don't.
I also want to know the percentage of women and minorities in the company/department. I will never, EVER do the one woman in the tech/web department thing again - unless I'm running it. (And secretaries don't count.)
I know this sounds like astroturf, but that's the first site I've gone to that actually listed things near my little town.
I wanted to make more money, but I didn't want to be away from my growing family. I went to indeed.com, and within minutes found a job making $8000 per month, part time without leaving home!
Just kidding with that last paragraph. Nice site.
Raise your children as if you were teaching them to raise your grandchildren, because you are.
That stopped me right there. Thanks anyway.
I don't think the problem rests solely on the shoulders of the Jobsites, although they have accelerated it. The problem is that the IT/Software industry has evolved keyword driven hiring. People are screened, interviewed and hired based on their expertise/experience with a certain technology (e.g. .NET, java, SQL, etc) At one time people were hired based on their aptitude for the job as a whole, but todays rapidly changing software industry with its ultra short cycles and overwhelming number of technologies has pushed employers to hire for a specific need they have today as opposed as looking for a candidate that has the potential to be a long term contributor to the company.
I'm sick of people lying on job web sites...
You know, when you spend 8 hours looking and pick the perfect job, apply, get an interview, and are totally confused becuase they don't know what job you're talking about. They just pulled you to put you in a pool of candidates - the job they advertised never existed.
That is just as dishonest as my getting to a job interview and explaining that the college degrees I listed don't really exist - I just wanted to build a pool of potential employers. That's why I don't deal with certain companies (IBM, Motorola) - they lied to me 10 years ago, and I remember people who lie on their job applications.
Andy Out!
Most of the complaints here are about both precision and accuracy. How about this? Make each job posting for a real job, with real requirements. Have people enter their resumes specifically and then do a match to only show them jobs that exactly match. Not kind-of, but exactly. When recruiters ask for 35 years of experience on Itanium processor technology, they will get no matches. This will have two effects: 1. You will get a lot less job postings 2. Those job postings will be super-high quality where someone bothered to spend time posting them and is interested in what they say. 3. People will enter their resumes like crazy if the postings are high quality, thus giving you a pool of applicants. Have recruiters mandatorily give feedback if they choose to interview so that the jobseeker gets something out of it if they refuse to interview when there is a match.
There are a number of problems to overcome. 1) Jobseekers with fake resumés. Allow employers to filter unsuitable 'hits' and easily request information which has not been supplied. 2) Employers with unrealistic or unsuitable jobs. Allow jobseekers to filter unsuitable 'hits', request information which has not been provided, and provide anonymous feedback (both public and private) about the realism and presentation of a listed job. 3) Middlemen posing as either employers or jobseekers. Make it simple to report abuse and difficult (or expensive) to register and/or operate multiple accounts, abuse the purpose of the site, or pose as an employer or jobseeker with the purpose of wasting other site users' time. 4) Difficulty in communicating between employers and jobseekers. If the site tries to restrict or hide one side from the other, or fails to allow both public and private discussions between all account types, it won't do as well as one which encourages and enhances that direct contact. If the site wants to make money, it can start charging for accounts after it's established a reputation as The Place to Be, or it can provide additional services (RSS feeds, customisable filter systems etc) to paid accounts. 5) There's obviously a market for middlemen - recruiters and whatnot who do the legwork for employers who prefer not to - or they wouldn't exist. So embrace and extend. Explicitly allow those types of accounts. Why keep your own list of potential good employees when you can do it on the site and have it update in realtime? Keep full communication and disclosure available between employers and jobseekers, sure - and if middlemen can still carve out a niche even when their clients can talk directly to one another (and even filter the middlemen out!), let them do it in an upfront manner. I can think of a couple of likely metaservices, for starters - providing advice on how to classify and write up jobs, and on how to classify/code and write up resumés. With instant feedback, the badly worded and/or coded entries will be slammed, reported and/or receive bad feedback quickly, while service providers with good reputations will grow via word-of-mouth. Some kind of Ebay-like system? That deals with similar problems (fake listings, deadbeat buyers) in a number of ways.
By buddy recently started a Canadian job search aggregator so he could make some adwords cash. It caches postings from the "Big 3" Canadian job sites -- Workopolis, Monster, and Hotjobs, and searches them all at once, aggregating all results into a single set of listings sorted by date posted. Check it out at JobBlender.com.
geeks are cats who dig a certain kind of cool
It's already happening...
I have my resume on a web site and forward the url to recruiters who are interested.
Seems I get alot of hits from India.
Wonder why?
A very real problem with your anonymous database idea is accuracy.
In such a database, how could you tell if your data was real, and not just a bunch of spammed high (by employees) or low (by employers) data?
As one of my boss's boss (an actuary with decades of experience) said, "Why would you want to collect data that you don't know is accurate."
Unverifiable data is not merely useless, it is often misleading.
Exam 4/C again. Maybe I'll do better this time.
I wrote the following document to relieve some of the stress. Each of these statements was received by ME during that time frame in the late 90s. The follow up is my translation. Remember, It's to LAUGH!
"Our company has surveyed the industry, and we have adjusted our pay rates to match".
The sooner in the interview process that a company makes this statement, the less true it is. At the rate the data processing industry is changing now, any survey more than about one month old is worthless. Further, the rates vary according to the state, the city, the phase of the moon, and the layoff rates in the companies in the immediate area. A good consultant will have listened to a number of possible offers over the previous month or two and have a better idea of the industry average than the recruiter.
"We think you are worth $$$ based upon our interview process, and the current market".
This really means, this is all we can afford to pay, so we are going to do it this way to make you feel like you aren't worth what you are currently getting from somewhere else. A good consultant will have listened to a number of possible offers over the previous month or two and have a better idea of the industry average than the recruiter.
"We are a FORTUNE XXX company".
And so were the other five companies I talked to this week. If you were really a big company, you wouldn't have to tell me you are FORTUNE 500. PS. This really means "I am number 499 or I would tell you that I was 498" and so on.
"A good candidate should have researched the company before talking to us."
In today's market, a good data processing professional is contacted about one to five times in a week. (During the first week or two of a quarter, about double that, during the first week or two of January, about four times that.) Of those, he or she will eliminate about 75-80% by listening to the job description, and the rate being paid. He or she will then agree to be submitted to the position, and contacted for a preliminary interview. The preliminary interview is the first point in time where the data processing professional finds out the name of the company he/she is interviewing with, yet the human resource person already expects them to know this. Human resource people, wake up! There is a good reason for this. There are something like 50 contracting/headhunting firms active in any given city at any given time. If these firms tell the candidate who they are interviewing with, some candidates then try to strike a deal on their own, or enlist a firm with a lower overhead rate.
"Any time we get more than one resume about a candidate, we throw them all away."
In order to get presented at all of the good jobs in a given town, a consultant must be in contact with several firms. Sometimes it is hard to tell which ones are honest, and even contact you each time they are going to submit you for a job. This means there are firms out there that just collect resumes, and ship them out en mass to every opening they hear about. The human resource people should time/date stamp them when they come in. (Fax machines and e-mail already do this, too.)
"We can submit you with a zero rate, so that we will get the job even if you have been submitted by another firm."
So you want me to undercut myself, and the other firm that was there first?
"Let me let you in on a little secret: We rewrite every resume for the specific job."
And so does each and every other contracting/headhunting firm. If you are telling me this "secret" then you are naive enough to think I don't already know it. Also, it is the contracting/headhunting firm's job to do this, to earn part of the cut they get from the process.
"Our benefits package is 'WORLD CLASS'".
Right, and that's why you don't have a dental plan, or something else that is basic. More common is a health care plan from some rinky dink company you never heard of. One h
When I moved to the NYC area, I got a phone call from they Daily News.
They offered me an introductory subscription rate. I have had newspaper subscriptions in several other states and cities, and their rate seemed pretty good, so I tried them out with a 10 week (or so) subscription.
We didn't even last a full week before we cancelled. We didn't even care if they refunded our money.
After we cancelled, the Daily News called us several times trying to get us to sign up again, and we kept refusing. Finally, one of these frustrated callers asked my wife, "Would you at least give me a reason?"
My wife, too impatient to be tactful, answered truthfully, "Because it's a newspaper for stupid people."
My point is, don't use the Daily News as a source if you want to look credible to intelligent people.
Exam 4/C again. Maybe I'll do better this time.
- if there was a mod-system for job postings, or companies, it would be abused like all hell. Companies would mod-up themselves, and mod-down competitors. People would mod-down the companies that fired them, and so on.
- if there was a standard resume, nobody would be happy with it. Monster has a standard resme, I think it sucks.
- job boards can not control the requirements that employers claim they need.
- job boards can not know whether a posted job is real.
The site is called Trade of all Jacks
I got tired of searching the same websites again and again - what I wanted was a breakdown of which recruiters were offering which kind of jobs, and how many, so that I could optimize the list of agencies to contact. In the end I wrote some software to do the job for me, but I agree with many of the posts - direct employer to recruit conversation would be the best scenario.
A banning of any spam Work at Home crap and recruiters. Monster is a joke because of this.
Hey, that's a great idea! I bought a house last year, and I loved using MLS. Pictures, number of rooms, lot size, house age, almost everything you could want to know before going to see a house. And if the data wasn't there, then we just never went to check out the house.
I'm not sure what kind of revenue model you could use for this, though. The MLS system is funded by Real Estate agents, who pay to be able to see the postings the instant they are posted (as I understand it). That gives them 24 hours to contact their clients, try to set up a viewing, sell the house, and make their commission before the general public sees things. Funding for this database could be a small price to post, or a small subscription fee to access. The first would be easier to administer.
Of course, this is only one-way searchable. The seller posts the house, interested buyers then contact the seller. That would be analogous to employers posting jobs and waiting for job-seekers to contact them. Maybe you could set up a parallel site, with employees who want to posting their CVs, and providing employers the ability to search that.
Of course, for this to work, it would rely on the cooperation and honesty of the people using the system. Provide plenty of fields for searching, and hope that everyone fills them in properly. If they don't (as happened in MLS sometimes), well, they get less hits.
It may look like I'm doing nothing, but I'm actively waiting for my problems to go away.
--Scott Adams
As others have mentioned HR/Temp agencies should be banned from advertising.
And most importantly, employers advertising must be actually hiring. I cannot count how many times I have applied to posted jobs in a timley fashion, only to have the employer tell me they are not actually hiring currently.
Are they posting job ads just for the hell of it? Or datamining in some underhanded way?
Dupes dupes and dupes
Indeed is stuffed with dupes in your data that link to the same crappy jobs as everyone else.
I know you can put together a jobs site in 20 minutes scraping and getting data feeds from the big boys but try going direct to the company sites like http://www.getthejob.com/
The worst looking thing i came across in a recent job search was what appeared to be a make the seeker pay to play - the ladders, which, so far as i cd tell, wanted you to pay a fee to see jobs freely listed by companies or other headhunters
I was out of work recently and using mosnter and boston.com, and one of the most annoying features is that the two or three sentances which show up on the summary screen are often wasted on usesless hr crap, like an exciting dynamic company....
when the stuff you need, like requriements, are buried down so you have to waste time looking at each job individually.
I recently went through dice.com when looking for a job. I posted my resume on a Friday eve and began poking through the list of programming jobs in the Des Moines area. The following Tuesday I was hired. I had been posting my resume to employers for two months prior to that, but because I have no degree I was never able to get even a second glance (despite my 9 years experience).
I received in total about 8 call backs for offers/interviews (of which 3 were from agencies) before I hid my resume there.
I had such a positive experience, I have to recomend them any chance I get.
End NAFTA so that you will have jobs to list.
I live in the Washington, DC area.
... particularly if you fail the clearance).
The last time I went looking for a job, I spent months. There are plenty of IT jobs out there, but it's annoying to go through 90 jobs, to find the 5 that don't require a security clearance.
(the contractors want people with 'em, but they're not willing to fund people to get them, as it cuts into their profits
I would've loved to search 'and not requiring a security clearance'. I'm guessing other people in this area might also like 'and not must be US citizen'
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
http://www.getthejob.com/ allows you to search jobs that are listed on employer websites and apply directly.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I have used most all the popular job Web sites out there today. I take care to indicate that I do not desire any temporary or contract work.
However, I bet I've been contacted about the same AT&T job 35 times in the last year. Yes, my resume contains all the buzzwords that match what AT&T is looking for -- but I am simply not interested because it is a 6-12 month contract.
Job sites become much less valuable if recruiters are only going to scrape your text-based resume for keywords and not take your preferences into consideration!
Hmmm, this layout looks somewhat familiar. Reminds me of some site, but I can't quite place it. Maybe it was another type of search engine. The layout seems almost EXACTLY the same.
OMG, I think they stole google's style sheet!
HEh, j/k, who really cares, it's a nice site, I'll have to play with it for a while. Need to figure out how to make my search for "IT Manager" not respond with restaraunt manager as the first result.
Do not meddle in the affairs of sysadmins, for they are subtle, and quick to anger.
I want:
1. The email notifications to not just stop all of a sudden (al.com)
2. The emails NOT send the same crappy ass jobs every day. Send them once. If I didn't apply the first time the email came, I'm not going to do it on the 357th time.(dice.com)
3. Allow me to filter out the jumbo companies that post to every major city in the world.(hotjobs.yahoo/IBM)
Do not meddle in the affairs of sysadmins, for they are subtle, and quick to anger.
Hey yeah, that would be cool if it integrated Google Maps into it.
Adventure City Tours
By going to Workopolis and limiting my search by city. Also, what your site offers looks alot like the posting on Workopolis. Are you just scraping their site?
Job listings always have huge shopping lists of requirements for training, transportation, experience, etc.... but never list rate of pay.
Gas station attendents (Petrolium Flow Coordinators) who apply for executive positions. It is the job seekers that have made recruiters necessary. For even a moderately skilled position it isn't uncommon to have 95% of the resumes fall short of the minimum requirements. Hiring managers don't have the time to sift through gallons of resumes and leave it to a trusted pool of vendors to bring them a short list of qualfied people. Job boards are not a good avenue to getting an average candidate meaningful employment. Job boards are full of lazy recruiters hoping for an exceptionally talented candidate to land on their lap and generally give people false hope. The ratio of applications to job fills is extremely low. They work for highly skill professionals that have highly desirable skills but then again those people don't tend or need to use job boards. IMHO: - only work with recruiters that take the time to get to know you - apply directly to company sites (cheaper for them to hire you there) - take short term contract positions and hope you can impress them enough to stay on - network, network, network, join professional associations, volunteer, meet as many people as you can (think chaos theory)
Nothing is more annoying than some C-average H.R. major who didn't even bother to look at your name until the phone was ringing, say "So tell me what it is you do!"
The correct answer to this is "I hang up on morons who waste their time and mine."
What I am asking for is some good details. It would determine if I would fit in, therefore apply or not waste my time and look elsewhere. In my 15 years of experience, I worked in good places and some awful places. I would like to be able to screen out the bullshit.
One thing I've heard from employers (such as my current one) is that they refuse to post their openings on a job site because any (all) "resumes" from candidates are virtually unreadable. They try to cram all sorts of information in, with no regard to order.
These employers have an option: they can weed through all this information, or they can look at an organized resume.
If I were actively looking for work, what would I look for? A site with a good reputation among employers. A good guage might be something like (number of candidates overall):(number of candidates hired)... The lower the ratio, the better.
When politicians are involved, everyone loses.
What if you're a job seeker, like me, and you don't fit into a nice little keyword like engineer, programmer, developer, manager, etc.? That makes these job sites next to impossible to use because I have to filter through hundreds of job descriptions, not just titles, to find something that is both interesting and matches my skill set. Not to mention the dozens of possibles i may miss because the title sounds atrocious! I have a very broad set of skills and depth in certain areas, but I don't fit into nice little boxes. I don't like boxes as a matter of principle. Plus, I have principles! I'd rather see a community approach established for a job site. LinkedIn.com is heading in the right direction, but I don't think it's quite there yet.
Also, an evolving dictionary of what the HELL some of these acronyms are that people are looking for would be nice too. For instance, I do AJAX stuff all the time, had no idea that's what AJAX was!!! This buzzword of the month BS is getting REALLY, REALLY old! Let's stick with the basic technologies and skills and stop making stuff up to put people in boxes so HR can make themselves feel more important than they really are. If a hiring manager cannot be explicit without using the buzzwords of the month, then maybe they shouldn't be managers...IMNSHO
Recruiters are also worthless to most people that don't want a cookie cutter job. If you're looking for an ordinary warm body they may have value, but if you're looking for talent you're barking up the wrong tree in my experience.
sending me spam garbage promising I can "work at home" and make umpteen thousand dollars a month part time, when all I really want is a F@&#ing developer gig. If I wanted a stupid infomercial miracle job, I'd stay up 'til 3:00 AM looking for the stupid infomercials.
I mean really! Are they honestly that stupid?
You know who you are. <Cough>(TrueCareers!)<Cough>(CareerBuilder!)
Dice is the only site that never sent me spam and actually got me in touch with a recruiter that didn't schmooze me for an hour, promise me a dream job, then stop taking my calls. 2 months after getting my resume on Dice, I had a job, where a year on Monster, TrueCareers, HotJobs, CyberCoders (yah, every last one of their "company confidential" postings were actually copied from one or more other job sites), and BostonWorks yielded only spam and incompetent recruiters. I just hope all the incompetent recruiters don't read this and start tainting Dice.
Everyone else sent me spam. F@&#ing idiots. How bloody stupid can you be to try spamming an obvious "thought" worker with stupid (and obviously bogus) promises of mindless success using a clearly questionable method of delivery?
I get modeling agencies. Honestly, from Monster! I am clearly and obviously a UNIX sysadmin, but that doesn't mean I won't get hit-up for banker jobs, telemarketing, COBOL jobs in Virgina, or even modeling agency jobs. Maybe they like the long hair, or the tube-tan =_)
Zhrodague.net - I do projects and stuff too.
I work at a company that writes applicant tracking software (ATS) and hosts it for use by large companies. I totally agree with some of the deficiencies of the job boards (especially the spam:content ratio), but there are some hurdles to creating a system that works well for both recruiters and candidates.
.... :-)
Regarding the skill/job category issue - there's no real standard, although the government and a few other organizations have their lists. Companies who use our software are typically use it to post to both their own career site (which we host) and to a number of job boards including Monster. Sadly *every one* of these sites has its own skill categorizations, salary range dropdowns, education level value list, and so forth. This means that we spend an obscene amount of time creating job post mapping databases and mapping clients' custom values to the various job boards. It's god-awful. There is an organization that's been working for some years on at least agreeing what the entities are in HR (www.hr-xml.org).
A lot of people are working on solving the searching problems, the data re-entry problems (e.g. having to fill out 50 applications with similar data), and even the recruiter spam problem. It's slow going though. At this point if I was looking for a job I'd do something like this:
- use Monster as a guide for creating a draft resume;
- make it public just for the hell of it; but then
- ask my friends about their companies and visit those web sites directly, or better yet
- look for an insider who will refer me.
I do sometimes wonder about the irony of writing software that has both:
1. Features to cast the net as wide as possible and get thousands of applicants per job.
2. Features to whittle down the huge list of applicants because the recruiters can't look at them all.
Regarding the latter, you might be surprised that these systems contain automated agents that only pull a few resumes out of the pack (based on very fallible search/matching algorithms) for the recruiters to actually look at.
Good luck
What gets me are the pros. I don't meen as in wanting professionals at something. What I meen is looking at wanteds even on store fronts while walking around and getting stuff like: Looking for a intergraged Open Systems expert for Intergrated solutions of blah blah blah. Or the resume wanteds: Wanted someone who's expert in Win XP SP 3 (not 4 or 2 or just XP) and Office 2000 XP etc etc etc. works 200000 hours a week and blah blah blah. Look I don't like the head hunter stuff- Willing to work anywhere, and we do meen anywhere? either but cripes lets get back to basics.
Check this out... Trade of all Jacks
1.) We act as a barrier between employers and students, meaning less "random contact" and also less recruiters just fishing.
2.) We are better able to screen employers, and can set their access levels different depending on whether they are recruiters or actual employers. Recruiters are not allowed to search our resume database.
3.) Students are able to see a wider variety of jobs, ranging from close part time to far away internships and career starters.
Basically, we just put ourselves between the employers and the students. Employers can search the student database to find resumes, but only if we approve them to do so. A lot of employers do not get this feature, as we do get a lot of recruiters (fishers). Hence, in almost a message board like system, employers get rewarded for actually posting jobs, and after several successful job posts where the position is filled, they are able to search the database for resumes that meet their qualifications. On top of that, students are able to send resumes and contact employers via the same method, meaning that they are able to take the initiative in some cases.
In addition to this, while we encourage employers to post their own jobs, we also will post ones that the more inept send in either via snail mail or e-mail. This allows us a great amount of control over what the employers are putting out there. If it looks like the employers are really just putting out half-assed jobs, we don't post them, and when asked why, we tell them that there isn't enough information. Despite the tight reins that we keep on the employers, we have actually seen significant increases in students and employers signing up for our website, and almost a 200% increase in the amount of jobs that we posted from the year prior, and those are just ones that we went through and posted for employers.
The silly thing is that even with this relatively large operation (we service ~22,000 students in our database and I forget the number of employers), the majority of this operation is run by 4 people, including myself. One person focuses on the part-time jobs sent in, two of us focus on the full-time positions and employer verification, and the last person oversees the operation and dictates website redesigns to me.
I guess what I'm saying is that it is quite possible to get an incredible job system up online with relatively few workers if they are just willing to adapt a decent system. If four people can handle a website and tens of thousands of students and employees
As a contractor working alot with recruiters, I found the best way is to keep track of who is good, and who is bogus. For this, I setup (shameless plug) Recruiter-Rater, as a way to find and rate tehcnical recruiters. Mostly I've done the posting, but other users have started to contribute their experiences. There really isn't another way to find out which gigs are SPAM, and which are valid, until you do some research, or compare with other people.
Zhrodague.net - I do projects and stuff too.
I haven't seen this one mentioned. I see a lot of nitpicking wanting people to take tests and demonstrate encyclopedic knowledge of every last detail of technologies. Who could remember all that stuff? I routinely use Perl, PHP, Java, C, and REXX; plus MySQL, Oracle, and DB2; and I do Linux system administration and MVS systems programming on an ad-hoc basis. How the heck would I remember some trivial detail I could look up in an O'Reilly book or google? I solve problems, not memorize trivia. Most of the job related stuff I see is taking these inane tests which expect people to know all these details.
Anyone who uses the Taleo system for recruiting or submitting an applications I skip. Page after page of information needs to be filled out before submitting a resume. And it doenst even save the information.
If you dont have an email address with a REAL person on the other end, I'm not applying. No auto reponders, and I dont accept spam contracts. Also, not to be politically incorrect here, but anyone who offers a contract with an indian name, and who's president of the company. DELETED. Also, I hate ALL, ALL ALL, HR employees, tecnically ignorant. STFU n00b. Pass this resume to a tech manager to evaluate.
You have a point that a degree, even from an Ivy League institution, does not automatically confer common sense, an ability to solve problems in the real world in real time, or even a guarantee that the person knows how to think well.
It is also sadly the case that many schools and so-called professors are a complete waste of time (and that is being generous).
I also think that most HR people and recruiters suck -- they don't really understand the real requirements, and just match lists of requirements and capabilities (and usually badly at that).
I have an Ivy degree, and was self taught in the computing field, so I know the value of both. In fact, I feel that being self-taught can be a distinct advantage, because one's thinking might not be as constrained as it would be with a formal education.
Yet, as an employer (running software companies), I always started my basic requirements for all positions, even front-office support type positions, with a requirement for a four-year degree or commensurate experience. I have occasionally used the "commensurate experience" exception, and was well rewarded with excellent employees, but the hurdle was high.
Requiring a degree gave me two things as an employer. First, I knew that the applicant had passed the admissions filter and had demonstrated some ability to think and complete work over a period of years. Yes, it is VERY imperfect, but it is something. Second, an education, especially a liberal arts education which we strongly preferred, can dramatically extend your ability to think in different ways; the student should have been systematically exposed to many more modes of thinking than are encountered in ordinary life. All too often this means nothing, and I must still evaluate each case, but my odds are much improved over the pool of the un-degreed.
The next thing I do with all applicants is to read their writing and resumes as a work product unto itself. How well are they doing the task at hand (of applying for a job)?
You, unfortunately, would have already failed this screening, even with a degree. Your third sentence jumped out and hit me over the head with the fact that you don't know the difference between possessive and plural, or between "there" and "their", and these are repeated errors. It is not merely being a 'grammar-nazi'. How you communicate matters -- do you expect the computer or someone else to debug your code? You are asking them to do it with your writing.
I would have to ask two questions: First, if you are this careless or uneducated with your primary language of communication, how careful or educated will you be with a computer language? Second, I will have to worry about every memo leaving your desk making my organization look questionable? Every good thinker I know uses English as a primary tool, does it well, and immediately recognizes the difference in those that do and do not.
Moreover, I would need to see more than just 'I'm so much better than Jack and Joe with their degrees'. I see good enthusiasm and 'get it done' attitude, but I'd need to see more evidence of precision, rigor and forethought in your work (not that it doesn't exist, but it is not evident here).
If you want to do well being hired by others, I'd suggest getting a good degree, and being absolutely ruthless with your instructors. Accept nothing less than clear, rigorous instruction. Seek out the instructors others call tough. You are paying for an education -- demand the best. Because, frankly, the degree itself isn't worth crap -- there are plenty of degreed people I wouldn't hire to sweep the floors.
Alternatively, start your own company. That way, you can hire yourself without a degree, and the people that hire you (your customers) will be more focused on what you can do for them now than what you did in the past. But again, be rigorous -- ask the question "would you hire yourself?", and do whatever it takes to answer that question "Yes" before you start.
Good luck in whatever path you choose.
Thanks for setting it up and mentioning it.
The best way to predict the future is to create it. - Peter Drucker.
Mod parent off-topic. And possibly mod parent "pompous Buddhist", which really should be oxymoronic, but somehow often isn't.
As to keeping commitment, do you expect the agency to guarantee that the guy doesn't quit? Seriously, it is the employer's and only employer's responsibility to keep the employees employed. You cannot outsource that.
I'm a Microbiologist with a Master's Degree in Food Safety with several publications under my belt. When I browse the monster and careerbuilder listings, my searches are dominated by scientific recruiters and temp services. It's been said many times in this thread that recruiters are completely bogus but I don't completely agree with that statement. In my field I've found them to be very useful and they've sent me out on some great interviews (including one job offer, which I turned down because my current employer counter-offered.) However, I'm annoyed and disturbed by the growing number of "temp to hire" jobs that turn up on my searches. "Temp to hire" is a polite way of saying "you will work for us for 6 months with no benefits and no vacation and after that time we will either hire you or we will end your assignment and bring in another temp to whom we do not have to give benefits." That kind of job may be OK for some kid right out of college but the fact that I get spammed with so many of them is disturbing. If I lost my current job I might be forced to take one out of desperation, despite my level of experience.
Us european (and aussie ) freelancers use http://www.jobserve.com/ to
the exclusion of almost everything else.
The site is well layed out, easy to search and has thousands of jobs.
Plus they sponser West Ham United so are obviously diamond geezers.
Old COBOL programmers never die. They just code in C.
Unfortunately, most of the current discussion doesn't seem to focus on technology, yet that's what I think the original question wanted. Let me add some more technology issues:
1. No mandatory javascript. This one always seems to elude the lesser webmasters. Javascript has had an extremely large number of attacks on it, possibly second only to MS Windows. So, if you're into security, and looking for a job, you either have to open yourself up to an attack, use a less secure system, or go to a different site.
Really, if you can't do a website without javascript, you'll drive some people to your competitors, who you may want to attract.
2. Ratings of agencies and job seekers. Ok, this is controversial. But I'd really like some indication that the agent I'm dealing with isn't a scum bag. I'm sure they'd like the same about job seekers. More than just references. What comes to mind is whether the seeker isn't really another agent trying to steal a client.
3. It would also be nice if you could generally view the site, and get a general idea of what they have without signing up. Registration is a pain (and one more stupid password to remember). Let me look before I decide it's worth it.
In general, I find dice.com has many of the things that I need. It's not perfect, but orders of magnitude better than the competition.
The best way to predict the future is to create it. - Peter Drucker.
If you have a marketing degree, you know what I mean. Anyone who has a degree in marketing knows what I'm talking about. Nearly EVERY posting at Monster or wherever are postings for sales positions. SALES DOES NOT EQUAL MARKETING!! It's impossible to sort through all of those listings, it sucks.
One of my more down-to-earth professors at B.U. Engineering had a great analogy. I asked him one day what he thought of headhunters. His response was "You mean the kind that find you a job or the kind that kill you and shrink your head?" He then went on to say "You know when you have a barrel of apples and on the bottom there's this layer of crud? You scrape off that layer and underneath are headhunters. What that means is that they'll work hard to find you a job but they'll work even harder to make you take a job." My personal experience has confirmed that in spades. I had several recruiters blow me off because I didn't take the first job they sent me to.
Only three things are certain; death, taxes, and apocryphal quotations - Ben Franklin.
I'm a developer at a major job site...
/. is making the rounds here.
First, I like the idea of "Specific Experience Categories" or whatever you might want to call it. The hardest part might be getting the various posters/seekers to agree on standard names for certain things and to have an easy way to correctly add a new technology/skill/specific experience. Could simplify things a lot (think of the messy parsing of the full text of resumes and possible mistakes, and manually having to read postings you dont care about as a job seeker). Employers could probably sort through the heap of apps easier too. Maybe I'll pass this on, this Ask
But really only a fraction of our jobs could use this, then fewer still actually would...
As for comments...
Job Posters are paying quite a bit to list their jobs with us. They wouldn't want a comments section there with anything negative posted to detract from their posting that they paid for. In fact, we often have reps that work closely with them to make sure their posting is setup right in order to get more apps. You simply don't put something along with the paying customer's job listing that they don't like.
Then there's the possible mess of companies anonymously posting positive comments about their job listing and negative comments about competing listings.
Job Seekers probably wouldn't want others commenting on their resumes, or would simply make up a bunch of bogus "this guy rocks!" comments. Besides, regular job seekers don't see the resumes others have anyhow.
And I don't doubt the legal headaches issues at all.
Really when it comes down to it we developers don't have a lot to do with the business's success. As long as there's a working site, advertisers and sales are what really matters.
How about fewer spams from resume broadcasters? How about fewer spams from automated 'recruiters' trolling for personal information for spams? How about fewer spams from multi-level marketing folks for 'exciting opportunities' and 'new franchises'?
The biggest problem I had as an Engineer straight after graduation were finding positions for entry-level jobs on job web sites. I'd get calls from various companies, and I say to them, "didn't that posting say 10 years in experience in this?" and the HR person would reply, "Oh, we just say that. We're really looking for people out of college to train." WELL IF THAT'S WHAT YOU WANTED WHY DIDN'T YOU JUST SAY SO IN THE JOB DESCRIPTION.
Most companies don't do a very good job of advertising entry-level positions. Some big companies have insane requirements for jobs, but don't actually expect anyone to meet them. Makes it tough to figure out whether they really want someone experienced, or if they're just saying they want someone experienced.
Titus Barik
This is why I setup Recruiter-Rater -- to find and rate technical recruiters. There is lots of jobboard SPAM and SCAMs out there, and you can use this website to find out whether your recruiter is good or not -- before you send your resume.
Aren't all plugs shameless?
Zhrodague.net - I do projects and stuff too.
Too often (I'm just out of college), I will list myself as looking for a position with zero years experience, or entry level and still I get all kinds of listings for jobs that want 3 years experience or more. I find it frustrating that I type one thing in the search and get another in the results entirely.
Judges and senates have been bought for gold; Esteem and love were never to be sold.
I noticed your godgab website lists "buddhism" as a religion. It is not religion. it is a philosphopy. The Buddha was a temporal, mortal man. Please stop insulting Buddhist by associating their practices with those theists who suspsend reason (religions).
Karma, nirvana, ritual and rebirth. That fits my definition of religion. Of course, you should feel free to argue your points on the website.
Religion for nerds. Stuff that really matters
Thanks for the tip. I wasn't aware that it was possible to do that.
Religion for nerds. Stuff that really matters
Every tech repair job I've found, in the last 15 years, has been through an SCA member working there. Nothing like a group of beer drinkers who like to hit people with sticks and fix computers.
I drank what? -- Socrates
* If you're searching for a job, the site includes results found in newsgroups too like tor.jobs, in addition to the jobs posted directly to the site.
* Job alerts can be created to notify you about potential matches for what you're looking for (is also intgrated with newsgroup feature).
* Some social networking (buddy groups) allowing you to seek and post jobs within the group.
* Can fax out your resume from the site.
* Can create notes to associate with contacts, job postings, etc.
It's been very useful to me.
Keep C and C++ separate. They really are different languages. And a lot of recruiters need a clue about that, too.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
I've talked to hiring managers who posted their job on Monster and very quickly got something on the order of 600 resumes, most not even remotely fit for the job. They also give the job description to head hunters - who post it on Monster. The advantage to them of the head hunter is that they pre-screen candidates before passing the resumes along (while harvesting the resumes to put toward other openings). If the job board could serve as a screening function and only pass along qualified candidates to the employers, it would cut out the need for the recruiters in the middle. (btw - that job was filled by a word of mouth referal)
1) Jobs clustered by skill/qualification sets, so I can browse rather than searching by keyword.
2) International, telecommuting support.
3) I want to know how many applicants/qualified applicants have already hit on it.
4) Require payscale in all postings.
5) Find my former co-workers.
6) Grovel the web for applicant info, so I don't have to, in order to get background on someone.
7) Estimate matches, like a matchmaking site.
-I like my women like I like my tea: green-
job site caters for employers, not employees. The problem is no one has invented a model that targets employees.
Most recruiters fuck you over. They take too much money and throw you at interviews without caring whether you want the job or not.
Fuck that. I started a year and a half ago. We pay better than ANYONE and I only send out people on jobs that they are qualified for.
I can also get much better rates than you can, which means more money for you. Businesses are willing to pay more for consultants than they are for employees.
I can do this because recruiting is not the core of my business. We write software. Sending out consultants is a good way for me to pick up talent.
--
Here is a tip:
If you want more money from a recruiter - ask for it. You can negotiate ANYTHING with a recruiter. I am floored by how many times people will just take the rate offered. Ask for the rate that you want and do not budge. I just tell the consultants what I charge and what I am paying them. Some people will do this if you ask. You lose nothing by asking.
Also, if you are going to be 1099, set up a business and have the recruiter pay your company. See an accountant and say a silent thank you to me when you get to deduct a good deal of your life from your taxes.
Consistent formatting, consistent information.
... that's not surprising. But it's a minor annoyance, but an annoyance all the same, when companies variously advertise "Ph.D.", "PhD", "doctorate", "doctoral", or the rare but ever difficult "Ph. D." and "Ph D". Some job boards have education level fields, but many companies don't use them, so you have to search through the text. Finally, companies like Google tend to have blurbs in their text talking about how it was founded by Ph.D. students or they have lots of Ph.D.s, etc, so they always show up in my searches, regardless of what job it is.
... I of course mean easier for the job searcher, not the company. I suppose it's much easier for a company HR worker to copy and paste onto a dozen different boards than try to maintain some compliance with a dozen different posting standards. I also suppose you'd be wary about hiring a Ph.D. scientist who's not bright enough to search for PhD versus Ph.D. ...
As a simple example, I have been looking for Ph.D. level research positions. Of course every offering has a different title, "Research Scientist", "Scientist", "Algorithm Developer"
So, as a whole, if we could force companies to not just copy and paste big blobs of text into a dozen different job boards, and instead have them fill out fields of relevant information ("Company history", "Educational requirements", "Programming languages", etc) with some simple rules, then life would be easier.
On the flip side
Based on the stories I'm reading here, this is something that's been needed for a while.
What I would really like is some statitical information about the job you are looking at.
Say the employer wants a person with seeming impossible requirements. Then there could be a percentage of what your requirements are and of the other people who are looking for the job. If say that seemingly impossible requrements make you say 50% qualified for the job and you see the average people who are instered in the job have 80% the requirements then you realize you may have a slim picking in that spot. While conversly if you did have a high rating vs. the average say the average is 50% and you had 80% you may be able to get the job once the the compnany realizes that there are no people who really match their perfect person.
Also employers should allow fluff in their requirements putting % value on every part of the requirement (and keep it for program evaluation only) that way when they check to see if you fit % you will get a better score, saying you know VB but not Fortran and it was Rated VB 70% Fortran 10% then you will have a better chance of getting the job and actually putting in the time to apply.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Your site is great. I admin Net-Temps.com, so hello from one job board guy to another.
Net-Temps.ca
Seems like some Microsoft managers need a prade of potential cadidates to be considered at the same time before they decide on anything else. So frustrating..
I'm in the Portland OR area and whenever Intel opens a position I will get calls from multiple recruiters within a couple of hours. (The record is 13 in 6 hours for the same position.) I blame Intel for this as they use so many recruiters and don't seem to have any internal recruiters. On top of that, if even one of these bloody recruiters submits me (with or without my permission), no one else can. I'm supposed to keep track of the job numbers so I can tell the recruiter I've been submitted to the 'Java Programmer-1192838' position but not the 'Java Programmer-48838299' position. Doh! Don't care why, just want it to stop. Had to disable all my online resumes at more sites than I can remember.
End Rant
To some extent that may be true, but it's not a blanket statment. Heck, the job I'm doing right now I got through a monster.com posting.... kind of. I was actually rehired and talked to my old boss on the phone. He said if I was interested in the job, I had to submit my resume through monster.com. So even though I'd consider myself a quality canidate, and my new/old boss considered me a quality canadate, I'm still listed on a job search site!
Life has many choices. Eternity has two. What's yours?
PageBites a job and resume search engine is hiring. We will pay you $100 to interview with us and a $20,000 signing bonus if you are hired. Learn more about us here http://www.pagebites.com/getPaidToInterview and here http://www.pagebites.com/careers. Help us make job and resume search better.
For-fee site. Somewhat of a lower signal-to-whine ration than I'd like, but still useful.
Nobody likes to bitch about HR more than I. I'll be nice, though. HR people couldn't possibly perform any other function in society, except for maybe insurance claims processing. They don't ever seem to grasp how flexible many of us geeks really are. If a position requires X ammount of blah experience, they don't know what that kind of experience it is, or what it entails, or even how it relates to the job. They get little check-off items from the hiring manager. "Do you have TCP/IP?" they ask me. "Uh, yeah," I tell them.
My favorite was a recent phone call from a supposed tech recruiting company. I was asked what kind of jobs I would like and I said I was looking for a programming job. She said that she was sorry, but they only handled software development jobs. I was flabberghasted.
This sig has absolutely no significance and serves only to take up screen space and waste the time of the reader.
The "jobs which wanted" leads onto a related issue: I wanted a job writing Java. I was offered many jobs writing C++ which invited Java programmers to apply. But if you filter out C++ then you'll also filter out Java jobs which invite C++ programmers to apply. Separating the actual content of the job from the relevant experience would be a step forward.
When I was looking for a job, I searched under "science".
Just because pharmaceutical companies do some science doesn't mean pharmaceutical sales is a science job.
Just because biomedical sounds scientific doesn't mean a visiting nurses company with "biomedical" in its name has any jobs in science.
I can't help but wonder whether the jobs that show up in too many inappropriate categories are actually paid advertisements. They smell an awful lot like some of the goofy GoooooooGle ads that get generated on various web sites (like the eBay ad for Nobel Prizes that got generated on the IgNoble Prize web site).
"I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid." -- Bishop 341-B
Favorite All Time Conversation With A Recruiter: (and this is all you need to know, kids...)
.NET beta ...
Her: well, they are looking for a Sr C# developer.
Me: I've used C# since MS introduced it, even developed on the
Her: But your resume doesnt say "Sr C# developer"
Me: Well, the job before didnt classify jobs that way, everyone was simply "developer", and the next job I was promoted to "Systems Analyst" (design+code+lead)
Her: But your resume doesnt say "Sr C# developer"
Me:
I have a degree in business from an elite school, but I am in a geographic region where there are almost no alumni which has forced me to network in different ways and one of them is the traditional classifieds which I absolutely am repulsed by. I am looking for an entry-level accounting position and having a HELL of a time finding anything decent. I absolutely refuse to deal with recruiters or any firm who choses to use recruiters (sorry, lazy middle management indicates to me a poor workplace from the get-go, if you dont have time to invest in finding quality people, you deserve to have the 10% skimmed off of your salary too.)
This recruiting scam (which is what it is, its a scam which takes away value from both employer and employee) is not limited to IT. It's all over the place, especially in accounting where these staffing agencies and recruiters dominate 95% of all the postings on monster, craigslist, and local job sites.
Monster is the biggest offender only because it's the biggest site. They aren't going to get rid of recruiters as long as recruiters pay them to use their "premium" services.
I have a good degree, I am looking for an entry-level position and I am NOT greedy and would be willing to take a job for substantially less than my university's average first-hire salary if it seemed even remotely interesting and gave me that valuable experience. Why is there not a job site which can fulfil this desire?
My main gripes:
- Get rid of recruiters and headhunters
- Same goes for "professional training" - forget these losers
- More entry-level position
- Descriptions of jobs that are more deep and interesting than "looking for a team player who is motivated and can work independently in a group" "must have good people skills"
- The ability to look at reviews of workplaces - before I send a coverletter and resume I always look at a firm's homepage, google their recent news and look at different company indexes to give me a little gauge of where the firm is, if this was all there in some sort of set rating system that would be nice
- Job titles that aren't confusing - "Jr Accountant, Sr Accountant, Accountant I, II, III, Entry-Level Accountant, Accountant" are all job descriptions I have seen for positions requring anything from 0 - 3 years of work, this makes no sense at all.
Thanks for reading my rant. Cheers.
So the problem isn't to ban recruiters, lest you ban great jobs. The problem is banning clueless recruiters.
I'm sure there are great recruiters out their. I've talked to some not so bad ones. I'm also sure there's some great used car salesmen out their (And actually, I've talked to some very honest ones). The problem is that the industry has a deservedly bad reputation. Trying to find the needle in the haystack is really quite a difficult problem. Even good recruiters are still middlemen, and represent yet another barrier to what you actually want. Essentially the problem is more endemic that just bad recruiters. If recruiters actually worked like real-estate agents, rather than fishermen trolling a lake they might be usefull. But as it stands they're all fishermen putting out bait (job postings) trying to catch a fish (job seekers) and sell them on the open market.
You say the cost of losing the recruiters is some great jobs. I'm willing to pay that cost as I only need ONE job, not several. In essence the signal might go down a bit, but the noise is going to get cut down by a factor of at least 10. That's a win, and I'll take that any day of the week.
AccountKiller
I was laid off from a cushy $75k IT job and kept getting these handy little fliers from my local US equivalent of the JobCentre -- "You could be a machinist! Sign up NOW!!" Uhm... no thanks.
Sans some kind of legislation like that, I think everyone in such offices should go the route of this lovely lady. Totally useless. Either make it useful or can it completely.
I'd be interested to see this concept extended to the social networking sites like friendster, orkut, or God forbid, myspace. That way the whole concept of references wouldn't be so shady and difficult to verify like the way it is today. I suppose that concept would be ripe for abuse, though.
I problem I find with almost every social networking site from the beginning is that most people start looking at their "friends" or "contacts" list as a score and before you know it, all meaning is lost. People add a person to their list simply because that person has 200+ contacts and they get a boost on their FOAF list. They start listing casual acquaintences as bosom buddies so they can boast their list. When people on their subscription list get new accounts, they don't purge the old ones because it makes it look like their audience is larger. These referral sources now link references to money... how long will they hold up before they become prey to falsified friendship?
This sig has absolutely no significance and serves only to take up screen space and waste the time of the reader.
Search for "sound engineer" or "IT Manager" in quotes if you want to search for the two words together.
I feel like recently the ask slashdot questions have served more of a purpose as a free focus group than as a truely legitimate and thought-provoking question. So I say dang to this post! I will not offer free help! Build your website elsewhere! Some of us are starving dot commers from the 90's and our ideas cost money!
Who is that masked man?
Good jobs?
That pay decently?
With info about them so that I can do my own research?
And uh, enough of them?
Terrorists can attack freedom, but only Congress can destroy it.
All good job sites have got to have a Moo page as their front page.
Candidates click here. Be tempted with our intriguing but bogus job offers.
Employers click here. We'll tell you all about our juicy gullible candidates.
Candidates this way. Employers that way.
Moooooo <----> Moooooo.
(The captcha word says it all -- sarcasm.)
A programmer without a recruiter can will get a job eventually.
A recruiter without programmers is a homeless person.
The problem with job sites is the problem with any sort of site that does not maintain and publish the reputations of it's participants. It is just particularly acute with job sites since:
1. Every company and every employee in the world is a potential customer.
2. There's a lot of money involved.
Failing to make these things community and reputation driven is negligent at best, and more likely just exploitive.
Now someone Ask Slashdot why all real estate / rental sites suck, so I can repost this verbatim.
1. Allow me to upload my resume in whatever damn format I want. I spent a lot of time creating my resume, don't force me to rehash it into ugly text. AT LEAST support major word processing packages (ie, Word) and PDF.
.NET, not networking, not MyCoolCompany.net, etc.
2. Allow me to post my resume anonymously. My employer looks at these sites too, and I don't want them to know I'm looking.
3. Ban bad recruiters, how about a complaint-based system?
4. Good technology searches, ie, C, C++, and C# are all different. ".NET" is a development platform, yeah the name sucks, but it's been years, deal with it already. I want
5. Salary ranges required. I don't want to waste my time if their top salary is 45K less than I already make.
6. Location search by zip code + miles, and/or exclude zip codes. San Mateo isn't far from me, but I don't want to cross the bridge every day.
replying because i like the site and want to save the link for myself... i'm feeling lazy today.
Bury me in mashed potatoes.
The biggest problem I have with Monster and Dice (and I expressed this concern to both sites) is that employers and recruiters oftentimes put the major city instead of the actual jobsite location on the job listing. This is EXTREMELY annoying!
There are several areas in the U.S. where this information is important.
If you are like me and you live in Philadelphia, I want to know whether or not the job is in the far NW suburbs (extreme traffic congestion on I-76... it's worse than I-10 in Los Angeles), or if it's in New Jersey (you need EZ-Pass if you want to get back home quickly). 1/6 of the population that lives in the City of Philadelphia does not own a car, any even those who do (like me) prefer to work for employers in the urban core where train, bus and subway transit offers a relief from the painful rush hour traffic.
For the 5th largest city (5 million people in the area) we have fewer throughways and roads than the 8th largest city (San Antonio - 2 million).
But, for an employer to list the township they are really in (like King of Prussia), that can be the kiss of death for the good job candidates who refuse to even talk to those employers because of their location. I don't know how many times I've talked to a recruiter only to find out that they listed Philadelphia, PA as the location, but instead it's really a TWO HOUR DRIVE from Center City to Valley Forge, PA which is in a completely different county and has no access to commuter rail. Throw as many worthless stock options at me as you want, you can't pay me enough to sit in my car for a minimum of FOUR hours a day to drive out there.
New Yorkers go through the same thing... job says NYC, but it's really White Plains. WTF? No one from Manhattan is going to reverse commute up there.
I have no desire to move to the edge of a corporate office park out in the boondocks and have to waste gas driving everywhere in absolutely unbearable traffic conditions. That's why I'm in the city in the first place!
Dice.com has made this somewhat better by requiring an area code in the job posting, so at least I can search only metro numbers and the "beltway" area codes I can screen out, but that's not very specific as many area cell phone numbers are used instead of land lines. Having a zip code of where my fsck'ing desk would-be located would give me a better perception of how far away the job is from where I live, and whether or not I have commuting options to get there from here.
I've been on both sides of the hiring process. From my experience (and a past dream to compete with these sites):
- There is a HR-XML standard, which defines a resume/cv standard. The site should allow you to upload one, that fills in the profile. Spending an hour filling in forms for stuff that's mostly in my resume already is a pain. Especially doing it across multiple sites.
- Offer more to the job posters than just posting. Give them tools to make it eaiser to sort through the applicants that they want to see. IME one job posting generated 200+ emails from the job site, with the applicants resumes mangled. The hiring manager spent 1-2 printing them, and another 3-4 hours reading through all of them just to see which ones matched the base skills posted. Only 30-40 did. Go through this process one or two times, and recruiters seem like a good idea to companies.
- Standardize the job posting text. "About the company" is fine, but I don't want to decipher the marketing crap of why the company is great just to find out what the position is for. For me at least, tell me about the job first, then the company. I would love it also if I could hide the "about the company" text.
- Some kind of feedback loop to all those applied. The posting site knows who applied. Why not give the hiring people a nice little button "We hired this person".. that sends an email to everyone else stating that the position has been filled.
- Some way for seekers to markup their resumes and point it to the job description. So if Company A requires 8 yrs of C++ experiance, I can highlight that section in the job posting and link it to the relevant sections in my resume.
A specific URL for IT-only jobs. (Foodservice people ware welcome to use the www URL.)
Settings that stick between reloads.
Some control over how specific the location matches are. If I select area code ###, then I want to be able to control whether non-location-specific matches are returned.
Random samples of postings should be dragged out from time to time and dissected. If some HR monkey puts out ambiguous postings, then his/her karma should suffer.
Under no circumstance should mouse-jockeys be called systems administrators or systems engineers. "Windows Wankers" or "Must-Consult-Someone-Experienced" would be allowed however.
ID Escrow. If companies don't want to admit who they are on a posting, then I don't want to admit who I am either. A neutral third party should know who both of us are, and we can swap real info once we've made it to third base.
No-bullshit rules. If you post a position, it needs to be real, and it needs to be filled.
Also, only one front end allowed per job search site. I don't want to accidently find myself searching the same pool on three different sites, cause someone is selling ads in three different places. (Or maybe I start cranking out fake people.)
Perhaps it's just the system in Australia, but since the unemployment services were 'doled' out to private indiustry a few years ago, here in Aus it has gone mad. Recruiters place non-exitent jobs online in an attempt to get more subscriptions, or people registered to their lists, this provides them with government funding based on the registrations of people looking for work (and more bonuses tacked on if those people have a disability). I submitted my resume to over 25 jobs in a 2 month period, one response indicating I was not suitable for that single position, which i argued but got nowhere with, the others got no response. The agencies also are known for simply duplicating jobs listed elsewhere (from news papers etc) so they can (try) to collect their fees doing the placements on the businesses behalf, without their request. So in summary, ensuring the recruiters are posting jobs with valid information is the best thing to do to ensure that the applicants are getting a good service.
Well, granted, some editing would probably need to be done, ideally by people who also worked in the same field and part of the world. Wikipedia seems to do okay, even with thousands of annonymous submittors.
A few years ago I went on an interview with a Wall Street company that had been arranged through a recruiter. At the interview I was asked questions about skills and experience that I didn't have.
Interviewer: "So tell me about your Sybase experience."
Me: "Never used it in my life."
Interviewer: "It says here on your resume that you've used it for the past 4 years."
After a few such questions I asked the interviewer to hand me the copy of the resume that the recruiter had sent them. It wasn't just fudged a bit, or given a little extra polish, it was a bullet-point list o' lies. I scratched things out, added other entries, and handed it back to the interviewer.
I called the recruiter when the interview was over and let him have it. And he was completely unapologetic. "Today's market requires certain skills to get noticed. You've got to play the game to win." That recruiter was blacklisted by the Wall Street company (said company apologized to me for my wasted time as well).
It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law. --Hofstadter's Law
Alls i want to do is post a PDF as my resume, so it looks the way i want it to look. Almost every big name site out there only accepts .doc (Word Documents)give me a break ! To make it even better why not search with in resumes in .pdf format !
- MOSKIE
Job boards don't work because they don't allow for that "human element" - I rely heavily on email campaigns & networking to fill positions. Most inside recruiters aren't willing or capable of doing that. They rely on job boards & newspaper ads (which are all poorly written). LinkedIn, Jobster, ZoomInfo, even the awful armpit of mySpace are all better sources for me than any job board.
:-)
If you think the recruiter (specifically inside recruiters) are getting between you and a job, you're wrong. My hiring managers don't have the time (or the desire) to tell 30 different people about our company and do basic fit & skills assessments. When they meet you, they want to go deep and find out what you're capable of - they don't want to talk about the benefits package and how long we've been in our current location.
I think the tone of a lot of replies hint at something else: entitlement. So many candidates act as if we are lucky they replied to our inquiries. Get over yourself! There are more people with your skills (or better) in line for the role, and we are going to hire the one without the attitude. Culture & personality fit are at least 50% of hiring decisions.
Salaries and salary negotiation are another issue - every time we make a hire, we have to consider internal equity and parity. We are also willing to hire junior people and develop them. Negotiations start when I ask what salary range the candidate is targeting and end when the offer letter is signed. I always tell the candidate our compensation philosophy and benefits package before they give me their range - and let them know that it's written in pencil.
Candidates have to be willing to talk to (inside) recruiters, I'm their advocate. Of course, I'm lucky - I report directly to the CEO and don't fall in the HR/Finance function here.
Hey Indeeders!! I work at Jobster.com and we too have a job search engine. Tell Paul and Rony I say hi. :)
Regards,
Mark M.
Specifically, as a job seeker, I am tired of slogging through dozens of listings from the same companies I know I don't want to work for, or even contact - the same "WORK AT HOME" or recruiters, etc.
Give me a check box next to the company name so I can choose to have those results filtered out - and concentrate on the postings I *do* want to see.
If you or anyone else is looking for Smalltalk programming work, I filter many of the job listings to find the ones that actually involve Smalltalk programming. (You won't have to look through any customer support jobs that are looking for people that have "smalltalk" abilities.)
Go to my blog, (see the header of this reply,) where I have various feeds available.
James T. Savidge, Tuesday, February 21, 2006
I won't repeat all the other posts that have detailed so well what is wrong with job websites today. I will aswk if antifoidulus is actually shilling for some job site or another?
Truth is, the job websites know exactly what is wrong! They, like so many others, just cannot figure out how to make money doing things the right way; but they know exactly what the right way is. Rather than trying to improve what they propose to offer (i.e. a site where job-seekers and job-offerers may find each other) they have elected to take the easy money and pander to:
1. recruiters, who probably pay exorbitant sums to make sure that their listings are shown to everyone no matter what, where or how much they are searching for.
2. scammers, who probably pay exorbitant sums to make sure that their listings are shown to everyone no matter what, where or how much they are searching for.
3. anyone else who will pay exorbitant sums to make sure that their listings are shown to everyone no matter what, where or how much they are searching for.
Ahhh, I think I see the problem! Although they say they are a job site, they have sold out to those who want/advertise/offer anything except an honest job!
After being out of work for more than a year, I finally took a new job. I haunted most of the job sites, determined that most of them offered nothing, mailed/emailed many resumes to job offers that I saw on some of the sites (and received not ONE reply to any) and finally acquired my new job through a local newspaper ad. That's about the saddest thing I can say about all current job sites!
Ability to filter out third-party-placed ads from the direct (real) jobs. All information about the job listed, such as: company name, common industry title and role description, salary, hours/wk (40 assumed), FLSA status, etc. Come to think of it, all job boards suck: it's better to go directly to the website of the company you are interested in working for and applying there. Pretty much, anytime there is a middleman (not just in job search), it's a lose-lose situation. The job boards are a "solution" looking for a problem (read, unnecessary unless someone on either side is trying to get the better of the other: e.g., attempting to hire software developers to steal their copyright and ownership in their source code under the guise of "work done for hire").
1. Require job postings to specify the actual location where the employee being sought will be working. (One state site I know is subject to employers geo-spamming their postings, advertising the job in many different regions of the state)
.. Im sure theres more, but thats all I can think of right now..
2. Absolutely prohibit (or at least actively seperate) anything that isnt *actual*, *conventional* employment. (Eg, the ones where you have to pay for 'memberships', or other work-at-home type scams).
3. Prohibit employers from demanding SSN's and other secure private data online - in fact, SSN's should only really need to be provided *after* a job offer (possibly conditional on bg checks that require the SSN or other similar critera) has actually been made.
This is what I hate.. Large firms like Robert Half Technology,Teksystems,Tac Worldwide, and techvibes basically all others that use a piss poor bot to seek out keywords in my resume just to send an email perhaps if I am lucky a damn phone call to tell me to update my damn resume.. And worse they cheese out by bragging they dont know shit about IT and TECH and do a horrible sales job to get you to the interview table because they want to kiss their corporate clients ass and not want to appear like the massive dumb fucks they are. Even worse when you get some outsourced asshole who cant speak english who wants you to submit personal information to sell to his brother's viagra microsoft email customer performance enhancement campaign.. And I am not being just insensitve, I have had these retards see that I have some linux experience and submit me for a Senior Linux Developer position when I have no fucking programing experience on my resume.. And low and behold if a brainless IT recruiter fuck gets you to HR that is a whole other story.. HR spends most of their time stuffing their fat asses full of candy,post it notes, and massive amounts of stupid ass email jokes that they have to save all in their mailbox till it breaks home drive email quota as they break those top two buttons on their hip hugger jeans that are more like hippo huggers.. I think that IT recruiters and HR need to copulate and have such violent wastes of space that they inbreed into a segemented population that perhaps can read a resume, and be honest...
Embody Yourself In A Concept It Will Become Reality... Byron Smart
There are flaky idiots running companies just as there are flaky idiots looking for work. You wouldn't want to hire an idiot, and you wouldn't want to work for one.
If you see a posting that can't spell straight, just pass it by.
I want the same thing I want from Human Resources (gag, I am _not_ a resource!)
When I am looking for someone, I want to be able to find a selection of the best people--available or not (I can often change their availability...) And I want it today, now, immediately.
When I am listing myself I want contacts from real employers with real jobs which actually have _something_ to do with my skills and interests.
Additionally, when I am looking, I want the ability to find postiions that I _might_ be interested in whether or not they are currently open.
I do not want emails from recruiters, job search assist companies, training companies or other spammers.
I want copanies which wish to hire subcontractors to do so on a fair and reasonable basis--not trying to screw both sides. Do what other agents do: give the contractor a percentage of what you get from the customer.
It is not fair to anyone to employ a person at their 'lowest possible rate' and then charge the customer their 'highest possible rate.'
A company paying $200 an hour for a contractor should not get someone who is earning $35. They will get (usually) $35/hr worth of work.
This dilutes the worth of people who actually are worth higher rates (due to things like more work per time unit, less maintanence over time etc..)
In twenty years of contract programming/analysis I have run into exactly ONE company which pays its subcontractors on a fair percentage basis.
If author's & models & actors agents can work on a straight percentage, there is no reason that technology agents can't do likewise.
And don't give me shit about their overhead! Their overhead is the same as any agency--if it truely is up to 5-6 times the rate that they pay, then their operation is not economically feasible and should die.
No agency deserves to make 500% of what the person actually doing the work is paid!
What's worse than recruiters are the companies that list something as a job but it is actually "business opportunity" for you to buy into. In other words, these megascumbags are preying on the people who are may be in desperate straits.
A few months back I applied for a Unix administrator position. It had nothing to do with Windows, and was in a shop that was completely devoid of Microsoft products. I received a message from the "placement agency" asking me to please attach a current resume in word format. Note that *in the quoted context* of the email to which they had replied was my current resume in plain text format. I took that same plain text format resume, changed the extension to .doc, and sent it back - which is what I have done for years.
Though that's not as annoying as applying at places that use the same form for everyone, from janitors to seceretaries and IT workers. You know, the ones where you send in your resume, and then when you get there for the scheduled interview, they hand you a form asking you to fill in all of the stuff that is on that resume that they have had in their posession for several weeks, except the form doesn't have quite enough room for what you've done, and asks irrelevant questions like whether or not you can use MS Word and Excel, how fast you can type, etc. Augh.
I have been implementing a job website for the last two months. I can see hardcore demand for an anti-recruiter site, so I am adapting my business model. Two ways I can see going about it. 1. A social model that allows job seekers to "Report" recruiter postings. They would be reviewed by staff and removed if valid. 2. A black list model, that will eventually disuade recruiters from posting. All the Employers could see how many job seekers blacklisted them. Let me know what you think, Slashdot.
Imagine you are the recruiter on a job hunt and having to deal with recruiters. One might think it's just. Perhaps you think I learned something. I did. Fact: I may conclude I am one of the best recruiters, something long told always internally doubted. It's just my way. Perhaps you think it's sour grapes she didn't get the job but the data speaks within the 600+ posts attached. I wonder was it, is it, the demand for people that seemingly allowed so many bad people into recruiting positions? And. What's with the recruiting process at high tech companies? Recruiting is not about the Model T. My happiest day at a high tech company was being freed from the sourcing specialist and also being "allowed" to stay with the techie all the way through the process. Maybe I am just expressing angst. I am upset. What are recruiters my "colleagues" doing to people. In a recent interview with one of the biggest draws, I was asked how I would let go of a candidate. I began, "Well by that point we are a team." I failed. The concept was alien. The deeper part? I was loved, she was not. It got worse. I love what I do. I'm really good at it. For what it's worth it's an honor.
Jobby is coming soon.
This is a very interesting forum, we have been working on making the job seeking process much easier and organized. We are part of a project team at UC berkeley and you are invited to participate in a survey that will help us better understand the role of information documents other than resumes in the job application and candidate reviewing process. This survey will take approximately 15 minutes to complete. Survey: http://www.questionpro.com/akira/TakeSurvey?id=366 504
Thank you for your support. Your opinions are very important to us. Please start the survey below. Our project page:
http://dream.sims.berkeley.edu:8080/joshuach/verts earch/project.jsp
Dave,
Thanks for posting this plug for your site. I've bookmarked it.
Seth
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
Most job matching, both human and computerized, is all about matching skills. I don't think skills are really all that important. What is? The research I've seen, but can't remember well enough to cite, suggested that true job satisfaction has more to do with how well you get along with your coworkers than anything else. Maybe job matching sites should work more like dating services, comparing attitudes and favorite tv shows and stuff.