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School Admins Demand Access to Students' Cellphones
Reverberant writes "School administrators in Framingham MA have implemented a policy allowing them to not only confiscate cell phones, but also to search through students' cell phone data as part of their anti drug/violence efforts. Students claim that the policy is an invasion of their privacy."
What these kids don't understand is that simply by attending the school they lose the majority of their rights. Since they are minors, the school becomes their de facto guardian while they are there, and thusly, it has power that supercedes their rights.
Dont take your cell phone to school
It's just a cunning plan to get lots of free ringtones.
I'll probably be modded down for this...
Yes, it certainly is. Kids, if any person demands to examine the contents of your cell phone, tell him to get a warrant. Call your parents, call the local press, and call a lawyer.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
It is because of cases like this that we need better defined privacy laws, espcially for minors. I don't think the privacy laws currently enacted are necessarily bad, or being used in bad faith, but simply that they are vague enough that in many cases both parties might legitimitely believe that they are acting within the law.
Philosophy.
Who exactly needs a cellphone at school? I'm sure you might say for emergencies, but it would be much simpler and just as easy for somebody to call the school and have somebody come get you.
Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
I don't agree with the principle, I mean I certainly believe it's an invasion of privacy. But there's still always a way around it. It's pretty simple: password protect your phone. I think all cell phones have it nowadays.
this isnt gonna end up well but seriusly what jackass thought this would go over well pop you can have my cellphone i'm keeping the batterie now kthnx
This is one situation where Biometric ID is warranted.
Would you children please think about the terrorists?
what is it with schools these days, when I went I got taught - hell I thought that was what a school was meant to do - now this seems like it comes second to investigating whether or not your a criminal... If this was me I'd be buying a PDA phone and encypting the data... then you get the fun of watching them try and decrypt it
*''I can't believe it's not a hyperlink.''
...and your local law enforcement/FBI/DHS will be picking you out at "random" in the mall to confiscate your cellular data. The justification? The obvious catch-all to the Deteriation of Our Privacy: Terrorism. The "while at school" and "you're just a minor" reasoning doesn't seem to hold water when you look at the obvious next step...
wow how would u like it if some kid hopped on your computer and changed everything thanks for being an asshole you'll get yours someday i'm sure
Who exactly needs a cellphone at school?
Noone needs a cellphone. Humanity survived before we even invented them. We don't need cars either. We survived without cars. You're missing the point though.
Creating technology is a good thing and why we shouldn't we take advantage of it? It can be useful, fun or just interesting. If people want cellphones for whatever reason, why not? I can think of many reasons why having a cellphone is better than not having one. I don't see why people should have to justify it though. If someone else wants a cellphone they should be allowed to ahve one as long as they aren't breaking any laws, or in this case, school rules (such as turning them off during the classes).
The real question is are school administrators allowed to reading their pupils diaries? What if their diary is stored on their cellphone? Should we give up all our privacy for the 'thinkofthechildren' and 'terrorism' projects?
I say no. It's annoying that we are forced to use encryption to protect ourselves from our own authorities, but if that is what is required, so be it.
I'll probably be modded down for this...
You realise that technically, that's a felony, right? That's tampering with a computer system, and I'd like to see you cool your heels in jail for a bit to teach you to respect other people's property, you snotty git.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
If you're serious in saying that you mess about with their private property like that to inconvenience them for the pure sake of causing annoyance then I suggest you seek help. You certainly shouldnt' be anyware near the child education process because you're a terrible example for them.
Now that is a great idea. Instead of teaching them a responsible way of using technology, you practically admit that cellphones give your students more power than you can handle. BTW, the first thing I'd do when someone else has had my phone for an extended period of time is a restore, to avoid not only your annoyances but also the risk of spy- and other malware that you might have installed.
You're a horrible troll. Might want to readup your handbook, if you've lost yours, you can pick it up at the next meeting.
The school rules will say they're not allowed mobile phones. If they bring a phone into school, then, they'll face the consequences, which in this case includes some humerous retaliation. You seem to forget that while random alarms are annoying, so too is a teacher's entire lesson being distrupted by the crazy frog. Nobody's rights have been broken, no felony committed (especially as it's a UK school and felony isn't a word over here); the kid who broke the rules is just being taught a lesson.
That is the most malicious thing I have ever heard.
Well, maybe not, but you are still a jackass. I don't see how you presume to have the right to browse through something so personal, much of which has no relationship to the school and especially your classroom. That is okay though. Ultimately, these kids are smarter than you. Not only can you no longer hear their phones ring, but soon all of the information will be password protected.
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Temporarily confiscating the phone and tampering with its contents are two very different actions. If you can't tell the difference, then you urgently need a refresher course in ethics.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Since the cell phones tend to be the property of the students (whereas the lockers would be the property of the school), the school has no right to search a student's piece of property.
Maybe they have the right to search a student's piece of property if there is just cause that a crime is being committed, but as for what the procedure is to take, I don't know. Depending on what it is, probably contact the police, contact the parents, and perform a search on the cell phone if the cell phone, which is student property, is physically located on the campus at the time. I think the same can go for backpacks and whatnot. (I'd have to think about all of this though.)
There was a time when you got CANED for even breathing out of turn. Having someone take your phone and program alarms into it is far less painful, and still a good way to teach them a lesson, without physical violence.
I'm not suprised at all by this.
At my public high school in Texas, they do the exact same thing, in addition to a few other things...
You're not allowed to leave campus for lunch, but students do anyway. However, if you get caught by security guards driving on their golf carts patrolling the student parking lot, they will search your car. If they find any "contraband" (pocketknife, lighter, drugs, OTC medicine including cough drops) you get an instant suspension. Here in Texas they love their Zero Tolerance laws.
There is also another degredation of rights where I go to, pertaining to violence. If someone walks up to you and flat out punches you for no reason, you cannot do anything. If you fight back to defend yourself, you will be instantly suspended as well as the perpetrator. A kid last year was jumped by another student who stabbed him with a sharpened lead pencil, and when he fought back, eventually knocking the attacker to the ground and kicking him, he got suspended. He didn't even know his attacker.
So, if you are suprised by this, don't be. It's sadly nothing new.
I've certainly never done it myself before. But I've heard people telling me it happens, I imagine the rapport with the kids involved would have to be particularly strong... You have a good point. We certainly don't look through their phones but on the privacy issue I know lots of other schools which now have software involved that constantly screen scrapes students screens for keywords, I've seen it get some good results in terms of prevention of bullying, threats etc, but the amount of work it produces is astromical.
"all through my house i set up traps, it seems like the rats have a map, so now i feed the rats crack" - Donald D
The kids just enter names like 'pot dealer' with the principles home number. They text threatening things to their friends in jest, all pre-agreed between parties. They enter 'Osama bin laden' with the number of their local FBI field office. They text each other about fictional big-time drug deals and terrorist plots. They overload the system with so much false information that the entire exercise becomes pointless and a huge administrative burden.
The staff should give the pupils full access to their mobile phones as a gesture of good will, you never can be sure what those pesky teachers get up to in their personal lives.
Hint for your students: Install a program that hacks every bluetooth and WLAN device it can find, installs a backdoor and posts the access code to IRC, unless you disarm it with a password. Have it run silently on power-on. Wait until a morally challenged teacher thinks it's wise to operate another person's programmable computer without consent.
You make some very good points. Please read my post above though.
"all through my house i set up traps, it seems like the rats have a map, so now i feed the rats crack" - Donald D
I hope you spend the last moments of your life choking to death on a 12" cock.
What kind of dealer keeps information they don't want anyone to know, anywhere other than their head anyway ?
Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
>There was a time when you got CANED for even breathing out of turn.
And there was also a time when 'niggers' couldn't sit in the same place in a bus as the whites. What's your goddamn point? That because kids were regularly abused in the past in schools, they should be thankful that trampling their privacy is the worst they get?
School doesn't allow cell phone in the premises? Then the teachers take the phones. There's a whole world of difference between that and messing with the contents.
---- Take the Space Quiz!
"Cell phone data" (depending on the device) could also mean stored info used to help with tests (as opposed to actual studying and learning) or "texting" answers to other students. Anti-drug/violence has nothing to do with this, but perhaps local, state or federal funding comes into play when schools get strapped for cash, so this is one way to get the money.
This is a somewhat odd story, does Framingham have a serious drug-dealer problem or are they trolling for funding and government money?
how is the school supposed to know if the cell phones are even the property of the students? chances are it technically belongs to the parents in which case it's an invasion of their privacy.
Its pretty simple, right?
0) Before it happens: Set a password/pin code on your phone.
...?
When a teacher asks you to hand it over:
1) Remove the battery (the switches the phone off _fast_, requiring password/pin to start it again)
2) Hand over the phone ("You asked for the phone, you got the phone. You want the battery too..? Here you are.")
3) When asked for the password/pin advise whoever is asking that you didn't bother remember it, but you have it at home. I doubt that the school has a right to search your home or demand things from it.
4)
5) Profit!
That doesn't matter. Them breaking the school rules does not give you the right to break the law.
The Computer Misuse Act 1990 says:
Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
Jane - Why don't I just go to Ms. Li and expose this whole cell phone spying thing? Ms. Morris - She already knows. Jane - Okay then back off or I'll tell the PTA. Ms. Morris - They know too. Jane - Congress? Ms. Morris - You're beaten Lane. Jane - How about if I call the three local TV stations and tell each one that the other two are running the story? Ms. Morris - Damn.
The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
Of course they are right to search these phones. You never know where the terrorists are hiding. These evil students could make one sms message and bam! A building falls down for no good reason. ;)
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The school rules say they're not allowed mobile phones.
Fine. Confiscate it for a month. They learn their lesson (having to put up with a month of not having a phone) and don't bring it in/use it (in school) again.
No rights broken, no privacy invaded.
The disruption of your lessons, while annoying, does not invade your privacy in any way. You have no right to invade their privacy.
Bastards like you should not be allowed to teach. I'm on the governors board for my local school, and if I heard about this happening I would bloody well make sure you got heavy sanctions or were (ultimately) fired.
You're supposed to be setting an example to these kids!
Grrr.
given that my phone requires a code to activate if the keypad has been locked ( it does that automatically) their chances to get anywhere ... and that doesn't even factor in the add-on password safe app .
are pretty slim
Jane - Why don't I just go to Ms. Li and expose this whole cell phone spying thing?
Ms. Morris - She already knows.
Jane - Okay then back off or I'll tell the PTA.
Ms. Morris - They know too.
Jane - Congress?
Ms. Morris - You're beaten Lane.
Jane - How about if I call the three local TV stations and tell each one that the other two are running the story?
Ms. Morris - Damn.
The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
Fair point, please read my response and explanation below. And applogies for what seems to be the wasps nest i have stirred up. My writing this morning needs more time and clarity...I'll hasten to add i don't teach English.
"all through my house i set up traps, it seems like the rats have a map, so now i feed the rats crack" - Donald D
Massachusetts makes a point of not respecting its citizens at all. Why should their treatment of kids be any different?
Consider:
MA safety belt & motorcycle helmet laws (You're too stupid and irresponsible to make your own decisions about safety)
MA makes possession of consumer grade fireworks a felony (The message from the legislature to the voters: You're too goddamn stupid to handle things NH residents safely use all day)
I could probably find a few more examples if I tried, but here's the point:
Massachusetts is a paternalistic Nanny state were government knows best. This shows in the schools as well.
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
If the kid wants it back, Mommy calls the school, throws a fit, and the kid has the cellphone back. Confiscating it is really pointless.
If the parents sign the contract and the parents pay the phone bills, couldn't the parents claim ownership of the phone? And isn't the confiscation and subsequent search of the data therefore a violation of the parents' privacy? I'm not a lawyer or anything, but that seems pretty straightforward to me.
Public school is daycare! Let's just get that fact out into the open. I think most of Slashdot crowd easily understands this.
I've recently been watching the Linear Algebra, Introductory Physics, and Differential Equations courses from MIT's OCW. Wow! I'm actually left speechless by the quality of education these kids get. In the first lecture of the DiffEq course the professor stated that most of the students should have seen (and learned about) differential equations in high school.* If not, they could easily read the book and figure out what one was. That was his introduction. While I appreciate this lecture style now, I can assure you, I was vastly unprepared coming out of high school. I can also assure you that most of my high school math teachers would have trouble defining what a differential equation was. Is this sad -- yes.
How are kids supposed to take education seriously when this is the trash that we give them? Did I study in High School? No. I regret this now, only because I understand the role of 'busy work' in society. I really regret not dropping out, getting a GED, going to work, and signing up for courses at my local community college.** I would have learned so much more.
The first step in revolutionizing our education system is to let people know how worthless the present system really is. Let's just make sure everybody knows that little Johnny is getting screwed over by an inept public school system. Let's let Mr. and Mrs. Joe Sixpack chew on the fact that the modern day public school is really day care. Let's further emphasize that the modern day school has more to do with 'Lord of the Flies' than anybody care to admit. Let's expose the fact that our best and brightest avoid teaching jobs (especially at the HS level) like the plague. Let's remind them how poorly our kids do on education.
Only after we've addressed the real problems of our educational system, can we even begin to think about solving 'behavioral' problems. So, my advice to kids. You might as well bring your Gameboys, cell phones, and toys to school, because there's no point in trying in the modern day educational school system.
*Everybody sees differential equations when they first begin to study calculus. However, most students aren't really taught anything about them (not even a good definition) until they take an actual DiffEq course.
**Incidentally, the state college system is starting to look more like the public school system everyday.
What do you mean my sig is repetitive? What do you mean my sig is repetitive? What do you mean....
http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/home.asp?mode=so&ot=5 &o=636&so=649-6
Michael J Welch, Principal
Mailing Address: 115 A Street
Framingham, MA 01701-4195
Phone: (508) 620-4963
FAX: (508) 877-6603
E-mail: mwelch1@framingham.k12.ma.us
One thing that has been common among "progressive schools" is that parents lose many of their rights governing the activities of their children once they cross the threshold of the school. For a society which likes to admonish parents for not holding their children accountable, discipling them, many think its okay for schools to usurp the parents choices. If you diminish the values of parents the children will lose respect for those values and you get the problem you claim you were trying to avoid.
In many areas of the country the schools have been too invasive into families and worse they are nearly immune to correction. This is just another symptom of failing schools. When on the downward spiral you make damn sure all those who can criticize you fear you in one way or another. An "unusual" mark on a child - automatic suspicion of child abuse. Too thin, child abuse. Too fat, child abuse. DFACs should know!!! Bad grades, must be from a bad home environment; again child abuse!
Want absurd? One guy at work mentioned that a neighbor got a letter from the school's counselor. Seems the kid didn't like what he did or did not get in his lunch his mom sent him to school with. The school actually wrote a letter suggesting that the parents aceed to their child's wishes or give him money to buy a school lunch or snacks!!!
Too many of the schools are run by arrogant self style intellectuals. Another person at work recently moved so his wife could teach in a new school district all to get out from overbearing peers whose views of how children and parents should be handled came close to being unethical. There are many good teachers and administrators but too many are cowed by those who know the system and use it againts "non-conforming teachers", students, and even parents.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
Privacy laws are a good idea for minors. Yet too many times they are being used to strip the rights from parents. The schools want control, they will use this idea of giving students "rights" by taking them from the parents and in the end the students will be no better off.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
Maybe I should sell my Treo 600 to a high school kid. When the battery goes dead, it's wiped. I kind of liked that feature. My Treo 650 retains the data when the battery is disconnected. On the 600, it wouldn't be hard to rig up a quick pull pin that disconnects the battery wiping the memory.
*It's not what you can do for the Dark Side but what the Dark Side can do for you!*
Why bother the students in question?
Why not just classify our children as "Terrorists"
and ask the NSA who they are calling?
Guess I'm a little surprised how little value freedom has in America these days.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
If you want to come off as anything more than a complete twit then try using complete words and capitalizing your sentences (which I suppose would require you to start using sentences). My own English is far from perfect, but at the very least I make an effort to make my posts legible.
If I hadn't already posted in this discussion earlier I would have modded you down.
Well, it seems Principle Michael Welch didn't have this policy at his previous station, Newton South HS (fairly rich and very, very, very white), but created it at Framingham HS (much poorer and much, much less white). I'm guessing he thinks white kids don't do drugs and steal things.
I think this cracker is crumbling under the pressure of a "multiculturial enviroment" and all he can say is "Welcome to amerika."
Abused? Corporal punishment in schools was just that - punishment. There was never any permanent damage inflicted. Children could easily avoid being punished by simply following the rules (which you are much more inclined to do with the prospect of physical pain awaiting you should you violate them).
I would absolutely love to see corporal punishment brought back in schools.
It never did you any harm, right?
I'm aware that this may prove an unpopular opinion, but...
Why have kids got cellphones in school anyhow? They're disruptive, and they get in the way of the school's purpose. Schools already have mechanisms in place to contact students/pupils if necessary. That's setting aside and impact they might have on the social development of children, but I don't think that's within the scope of this article and I don't feel informed enough to discuss it without a great deal more research.
Get rid of them from school premises: if they're found, confiscate them and return them to the parents. It's beyond the school's authority to be taking responsibility for criminal matters.
Some of the posts are from folks who seem to have missed the fact that this is a high school, and most the kids there are required to attend by law.
"Live Free or Die." Don't like it? Then keep out of the USA
Unfortunately corporal punishment was long gone by the time I went to school. However my parents weren't afraid of using the strap.
Are most of the children being searched minorities?
Keep dealers' numbers on a peice of paper in your pocket. The school can't search there. And erase the frequently dialed numbers from the phone. Or just call the dealers from home. Easy. The school will probably get frustrated and try a different tactic.
Funny createSig(Witty remark, Odd reference)
{
return (Funny)remark + (Funny)reference;
}
In my old school district, being involved in a fight in ANY MANNER, meant suspension. You literally could be walking down the hallway, be attacked by someone (even with a weapon..), you could stand there and let him beat the shit out of you until a teacher or staff member steps in. You would still be suspended. Why? You were involved in a fight. Regardless of if you defended yourself or not, you were engaged in physical violence between two people (or more).
Now THAT was retarded. Many people got suspended for no reason. Get jumped by some hormoned raging punk kid who's got a knife? Get suspended, all for simply being cut or stabbed (or worse). It got slightly better as time went on in HS but still.
My favorite indiscretion of student rights were fire drills. I'm not aganist drills at all, they are important in case of fire or other inicident. However the school policy was anal retentive when it came to it. Literally when the alarm rang, you were supposed to stop whatever you were doing, line up and proceed out of the room and outside of the building. You were not allowed to stop to bring anything with you nor anything of the such. Somewhat normal you say? Imagine it being winter, ice covered sidewalks (cause it rarely snows here) it's roughly 20 degree's outside plus raining and on the way out during a fire alarm, you aren't allowed to grab your coat, jacket, gloves, or anything. The kicker was the "drills" weren't like 5 minute time spans, sometimes they lasted 15 or 20 minutes. Now imagine standing outside in that weather, with no winter clothes on other than a pair of pants and maybe a light sweater you wear inside without your jacket, you see where I'm going... Ironically, staff were surprised when the percentage of students sick in the winter, especially those with pnemonia and such.... Of course the obligatory suspension was handed out if you stopped an extra few seconds during the drill, to pick up your coat.
I know, I know. You're gonna say something along the lines of how it's the correct procedure to get out of a building as fast as possible in case of emergency. I agree. But when there's a drill every week-to-every other week, especially in the winter you might kind of see the other side. Frankly I think it was the heating that caused the problem. Like most places in my area, the school was overheated in the winter. It'd be 20 degrees outside, inside a classroom or main building? Easily 80 degrees with the temperature locked in most of the times. I think in the winter they were worried about pushing the heating units so hard to warm the huge campus they might have a fire or something but that was just my guess.
And you'd honestly think, after the events at Columbine, people would understand having a cellphone in a high school (or even junior highschool) isn't always a bad thing.
Aw Frell this
What if the students' parent(s) want them to take their cellphones to schools? I know mine does.
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
While I am not from your state, I would hope that I could convey some
concerns regarding your school's policy of cell phone searching.
For a school that purports that it teaches students Respect (as in your
emblem/motto), it offers its students none. Cell phones, while not
desirable in schools, are the property of the students' parents, though
perhaps with the exception of students over 18 years of age. Aside from
that item, why stop at cell phones? Why not PDAs, laptops, diaries,
class notes, or for that matter, body cavity searches?
Your idea of preventing terrorism and/or drug activity makes every
student into a terrorist and a drug addict, and in the process invades
not only the reasonable privacy of students and potentially their families.
Unless the persons conducting the search have probable cause for each
cell phone searched, possess the authority (warrant) and capability to
find, classify and research the data contained in the students phones, I
would argue that you have no business searching the phones. As I
questioned above, where does your purported authority end?
Bottom line, you are promising to teach respect, but are instead giving
lessons about living in and running a police state that has the will and
the right to do as they please. Provided that these students' parents
don't step up to the plate, they will not step up for their children in
turn and so begins the decline of society. While sounding oversimplified
and amplified, you must admit the reality of your actions- and this all
leaves out the simple fact that the students do not possess the legal
knowledge or ability to grant you permission to search their parents
property. You might as well ask their six year-old what the pin code to
their alarm is, and they'll tell you if they know but won't know that
they shouldn't.
Again, I don't vote in your district, or have any say in how you do your
job. I am merely writing as a concerned parent from another state. I
hope you do consider this and any other notes you may receive.
There was a time when you got CANED for even breathing out of turn.
There was also a time when the majority of the people on earth were slaves. What's your point?
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
There was a time when you got CANED for even breathing out of turn.
What kind of pussy-school did you attend? Where I attended high school, physical torture was the norm and we raised the gallows at least twice in a semester.
Why haven't cell phones been banned from school grounds as being disruptive and placed in the same classification as fingernail files and aspirin?
This another reason to consider private school for your children. The public school system continues to fall farther and farther out of touch with whats necessary to do the job they are actually commissioned with. If all parents had access to the money that the feds and the state give to public schools in their childs name through a voucher system with the option of choice of school a lot of this "crap" would dissapear, public schools would actually have to become competitive with private schools for this money, instead of being "entitled" to it... however, thank your teachers union and the politicians (both sides) for this uphill battle against common sense and whats actually good for your child's education.
The Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary disagrees with you. We don't generally talk of crimes as being felonies, it's true, but the word is still perfectly valid "over here".
It's official. Most of you are morons.
I prefer to err on the side of the Bill of Rights.
I for one welcome our mobile phone searching overlords.
What these kids will not understand later is how to value such rights when they are adults...
they have NO clue when it comes to dealing. I mean, REALLY... Keeping incriminating info in their cell phone... Sheesh...
Please stop stalking me, bro.
This is really a terrible policy and I felt compelled to write a letter.
7 16201&startat=100&pid=0
I wrote to the Superintendent Mr. Martes and CC'ed Mr. Welch.
Mr Martes,
I would like to focus your attention on http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/08/0
This concerns a policy being implemented in your school district regarding searches of students' mobile phones. My opinion is that it will result in great costs to your school district due to legal expenses. Modern cell phones are computer systems, hence they will likely be covered under the unauthorized access to computer systems act in the event of forced search.
Typically, once news of a local event involving blatant violations of US residents' rights relating to the use of computer systems appears on the front page of Slashdot, which is a publication that has close to a million registered readers, other organizations whose sole mission is to protect the privacy rights may likely get involved.
I urge you to educate Mr. Welch on the long-term implications of this policy as well as review our discussion on why it will be ineffective and to consult an attorney familiar with the implications on unauthorized access of computer systems.
Please understand that we have encryption capabilities in the more advanced cell phone devices and we do have removable memory cards. We also have removable SIM cards. If a student swaps a SIM card, the phone's entire identity is stored on such a card. They may have one handset with an infinite number of identities.Cingular and T-mobile are two major carriers that use SIM cards in their GSM phones. There are also prepaid SIM-based cards that are virtually untraceable. As a matter of fact, there is an HBO show called "The Wire" where the only way they were able to get accurate data from such phones was to pre-tap the phones prior to selling them to drug dealers. Obviously, that is purely a fictional scenario. That, Mr. Martes, is how futile this policy is. It will further alienate the students from the school and contribute to the existing tension.
If I had something to hide, I'd store my data on an encrypted volume on a removable storage card with a 256bit key. It is impractical to break that kind of a key in less than a lifetime. Additionally, I'd use multiple SIM cards with an unlocked phone. An unlocked phone enables the use of SIM cards from other carriers. That means that a student with a T-mobile device may in fact also be able to use a Cingular SIM card. That situation is uncommon for most people, but can be easily achieved for those who need it done for just a few dollars or some minor online research. By the way, the above description is how I store my data today on a removable miniSD card because I can legally control all of my customers' networks directly from the device and I need a secure way to transfer data as necessary. I can't afford to have some of that data fall into wrong hands. The cost of software to achieve this is insignificant.
I can also opt to store my data on remote web site that leaves no traces on my mobile network access device. They are not just phones anymore. Even many of the phones you wouldn't expect to be smart, such as the free Nokia phone model #6010 are capable of running Java applications, which can also enable encryption. You may find this list to be of interest http://www.epic.org/privacy/tools.html
In summary, Mr. Martes, the technological battle is already lost. Today's mobile network access devices are no longer just phones. They are sophisticated network-enabled computers that can be used as the students to greatly assist in their scholarly progress.
Leonid S. Knyshov
Find me on Quora
sue them
I went to Brooklyn Technical High School in New York and it was PLAGUED with scandals. Sexual abuse, underage sex, corrupt principal, teachers stalking kids, etc. You can read about our principal here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooklyn_Technical_Hi gh_School. Just scroll to the bottom for "Lee McCaskill controversy".
Now I'm all for schools trying to keep drugs and weapons out of schools. But when the school administration itself is playing dirty, who can you trust? What if a pervert of a teacher accuses a girl of selling drugs and looks at her cell phone?
If a school wants cell phone access for safety, then students (or at least the PTA) should have the same rights. I want to know that my principal is not spending school money to build a house. I want to know that my math teacher is not buying underage kid porn somewhere. I want to know that my dean is not in anger management classes. And so on. Seems extreme and strange for us to have this information right? Well that's the same way students feel when you take their cell phones and look through them.
If O2 is good, O3 must be 1.5 times better!
Get a search warrant, then you can look all you want, these guys must subscribe to the Bush Administrations version of the unlawful search and seizure laws.
Got Code?
... we didn't have cell phones back then, sonny. But the school did demand access to all the ad-hoc networks of soup cans with a taut string between them. This been going on since the first student laughed behind the back of the first principal.
The Luddites were ahead of their time.
Try not 2 mk it look like u ntrd it on ur cellfone.
Geeze, I never thought a Pink Floyd song would actually be prophetic.
What do you mean my sig is repetitive? What do you mean my sig is repetitive? What do you mean....
Time to add new entries in many phones which implicate the staff, and then report the cover up once your phones are seized to the local media. Don't they teach you kids subversion any more?
PimpDaddy -> Principal's #
Dealer1 -> Teacher that agree's w/ policy
SmackMan -> local cop that the school uses...
Has anyone ever studied the history of the rise of Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union under Stalin? Has anyone ever read how the governments of those two entities at first started out with excuses about "protecting the people" to "investigate" private information, how they used the teachers and schools to "teach and protect" the children? How they "supervised" the colleges and universities to be sure that "the young people knew their path." How, once war began, they then used that as a reason to stop "anti-[leader] speech" and that anyone who spoke against the war or the leaders was "not loyal to the fatherland/motherland"?
How both nations came to be in those states after corrupt and failed two-party systems collapsed (after the original falls of the monarchies)?
Are we really so stupid as to believe that it can't happen here?
Therefore, it seems the question is, are violence and drugs a serious problem at that school? Maybe this school is different, or maybe things have changed in the last couple years, however, don't statistics show that teen drug use and school violence have both been going down? If that is the case, then their justifications are not valid and the administrators are either paranoid or lying.
It seems that, as in most cases where law is involved, looking at the validity of the justifications is easier and simpler than looking at the legality. It would take a judge to determine the legality of their actions, but anyone can look into things and see if violence and drugs are a serious problem at the school.
Proving actions of the school are illegal: expensive.
Proving school administrators are lying: priceless.
http://www.popularculturegaming.com -- my blog about the culture of videogame players
Simple thing to do: DON'T CARRY A PHONE.
I realize that is unthinkable these days, but ask yourself - do you REALLY need to be able to talk/text to your friends EVERY SECOND OF THE DAY? They are there at the school, more than likely - cannot you just see them face to face?
And if you need to call home to tell your parents you are going over to George's after school - there's this really cool thing, kind of like WiFi, where companies create these hot-spots for telephony, and they even PROVIDE THE EQUIPMENT FOR YOU! You walk up to this phone, and you can make a call! What will they think of next?
And if your folks need to leave a message for you - if it is important, they can call the school. If it is not important, they can leave it on the answering machine and you can call it to get your messages.
Last but not least - in many cities, if you need to make a call while you are out, you could get your NoCode Tech radio license and use the autopatch to make a call (or if your folks are hams you can even bypass this step). I'd love to see Officer Unfriendly and Principal Suspicious when you walk out with your Yaesu VX7 on your belt:
"STOP: leave your phone."
"I don't have a phone."
"What's that?"
"That's my amateur radio."
When they tell you to leave it anyway, you can remind them that operating the radio without a license is a violation of FCC regs - as in, a Federal issue. Even so, there is NOTHING they can do with it.
So in closing - ask yourself, do you really NEED your phone, or is it a case of WANTING your phone?
www.eFax.com are spammers
First off, as my parents were so fond to remind me when I was a kid. As a minor, you have the right to be fed, clothed, housed, and not abused. Anything else is a gift that you are not entitled too. So drop the civil rights crap.
Secondally, when you enter on to school property. The school is your de facto guardian. And in some places, simply 18 isn't enough. You can still technically be considered a minor if you are 18 AND still in high school. I seem to recall an issue in Texas where a teacher was sleeping with an 18 year old student, and because the student was still in high school, the teacher was charged for having sex with a minor.
Lastly, only police need a warrent. As long as a school offical is not acting as an agent for the police department, they do not need a search warrent AND what they find is admissible in court.
Get over it...If you don't want your cellphone examined, don't bring it on to school property. My employeer reserves the right to go through anything I bring on property. So what I do, is not bring anything on property that may get me in trouble, or that I do not want my employeer to have access too. What's so hard about that concept?
In this world nothing is certain but death, taxes and flawed car analogies.
If that isn't reason enough for a ban I don't know what is: Corporal punishment leads to trolling...
Take the phone, I'm keeping my SIM card. Thanks.
Kids actually used to learn something in school. I agree that the abuse of children (even draconian punishment for misbehavior) is barbaric. The problem is that it's pretty hard to pay someone else enough to take care of your kids. Of course, the fact they're paid slightly above minimum wage in some cases is horrorific.
What do you mean my sig is repetitive? What do you mean my sig is repetitive? What do you mean....
delete everything and put in the number of the local District Attorney and a lawyer of your choosing. The DA wil say "Quit calling me you idjit" and the lawyer will say "Shoulda listened to the DA, Idjit". Then throw in either the gay-lesbian or NAMBLA hotline number. To finish things up, The national hotline for the ACLU. 2 or 3 hundred phones with all the same info on them should crush the life out of these jackasses.
So those kids should just be quiet and be glad they don't have to get body cavity searched while walking 8 miles to school uphill both ways in the snow. Damn whippersnappers...
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Ever hear of a little thing called compulsory attendance? It's more like the law agrees FOR them
It's compulsory education not compulsory attendance otherwise children wouldn't be homeschooled and more and more children are being homeschooled. As far as I'm concerned policies like this, this cell phone policy, is one of the reasons parents are removing their children from public schools. Another policy I hate is the manditory drug testing many districts and schools have for participation in extra curricular activities. I especially hate the new "No Child Left Behind" from Bush. It stresses teaching for tests not learning and neglects subjects that are harder to measure progress in like arts, and music. Though I don't have any for a long tyme I've thought that if I ever had any children I'd home school them myself, teach what I could and get tutors for what I couldn't teach.
FalconShould there be a Law?
So, Did anyone know that if you read the school policies or at least in New York the standard state school policy template states students AND faculty are not to use cell phones during school hours? Check your policies, once the faculty has violated it you're in a new realm of schetchy, shady, I agreed to follow these rules and so didn't you world.
Cell phone data is personal property, and just because you have walked into a school as a student does not mean you give those rights up. What it does mean is that anything left in your locker can be looked at, not through.
Anything found not within a closed container or not in obvious view will considered Illegal Search and Seisure in court. I have first hand experience in that. Also one more thing people overlook, your parents have the ultimate decision, they do not know it but they do. If your parent walks into the school and says, my student is required to have a cellur phone on him at all times the school, against policy or not can not break the parents wish.
Parents can also tell the faculty their child does not have to go to detention if they don't want them to, or suspension. The only manor that the parent can be over ruled is by going to the Board of Education getting a temporary decision from them, which can be escalated to a real court immediately afterward. (more first hand expierence).
I wasn't a drug dealer, or a crack head or anything bad like that in High School. I just fought for my rights, I read the laws, I called the faculty when they over-stepped them, and in general pissed off all the administration of my school. But since then, other people have learned what they can and can't do in that school, and faculty is no longer confinscating cell phones on site, nor are they telling students to empty their bags (they can't without a guardian present, or police with a warrent).
For anyone who has run into the my car is on school property (it's parked in student parking), But I can not go to my car and get things because it's a school rule. Look closely at your rules and guidelines. You can not leave school property, and almost every school labels student parking as school property so they can walk by windows and look for things they don't like. This means that you CAN go to your car, because you are not leaving school property. (that one really pissed them off when the court ruled in my favor).
So, in general, just challenge it. You'll find that most of the power hungry admins give up once they realize they are dealing with someone that doesn't take crap. I'm not saying yell and scream at them, just pull real laws out in front of them, real rules, and find the gaping holes in their lies.
The Terrorist Song
(Sung to the tune of Python's The Lumber Jack Song)
I'm a terrorist and I'm OK
I read at night and I work all day.
The Government:
He's a terrorist and he's OK
He reads at night and he works all day.
I read a lot and I seek the truth
I go to the lavatory.
After OKC, I saw some things that didn't make sense to me.
The Government:
He doesn't believe our story about OKC,
We monitor when he goes to the lavatory.
On Wednesday night, he went to an unapproved web site.
Chorus:
He's a terrorist and he's OK
He reads at night and he works all day.
When, after 9-11 didn't all add up,
I met with others on the net, to talk it up.
The government:
He didn't believe our story about 9-11.
We followed him to unapproved web sites after hours.
In our report, we'll say he had bomb-making materials under his sink.
Chorus:
He's a terrorist and he's OK
He reads at night and he works all day.
I don't think a plane hit the Pentagon.
I think the World Trade Center buildings fell all wrong.
I wish I could convince my dear ol' mom!!
The government:
He's a terrorist and we're going to make him pay?!
We read his e-mail and didn't like what he had to say?!...
Just me:
I wish I'd been born, back when America was really free!!
The Government:
He's a terrorist and we're going to make him pay
He reads the Constitution and knows his rights.
He's just like McVeigh, Bin Laden, and al-Qaeda!!
Chorus:
He's a terrorist and he's OK
He reads at night and he works all day.
Ron Paul
You forgot ' .
What these kids don't understand is that simply by attending the school they lose the majority of their rights.
Where in the Bill of Rights does it say this? Nowhere, the Bill of Rights stipulates no limitations.
FalconShould there be a Law?
You can read more about reasonable suspicion here. Disturbingly:
Since it's been established that cell phones are fair game, could this ruling be used in defence of random cell phone checks?
I'd ask what next, but I fear I already know.
...where much more of their conversation happens through phones (probably Blackberries).
Tsunami -- You can't bring a good wave down!
Why the hell are cell phones even being brought to school? There's no need for them.
Your grandmother dies? Parents canc all the office. You want to see if Suzy likes
you? Talk to somebody at lunch.
Were that I say, pancakes?
This is another one of these issues that one the surface can become extremely emotional and, on one side, you have the "they are taking my rights away... they are taking my privacy away" group which usually reduces its arguments to sound bites. But the truth is really far different. The high school where I teach allows students to possess and use their cell phones during passing time, before and after school while on school property, during lunch, etc. However, they are not allowed to even take them out during class. The first time I simply tell them to put the phone away. If they refuse or it is a second instance, I confiscate the phone for the day and enter a discipline note. On the third instance we can bar the student from having any cell phone in their possession while on school grounds and can suspend them for three days. The cell phone excuses are as varied as the students- "I am checking the time" (I have a clock on the wall)... "I am talking to my mom... my Grandpa is in the hospital" (Hardly, when you are talking about getting your hair and nails done...) "It's an emergency" (Okay, whoever it is can call the office and get a message to you as stated in the student handbook)... Or there is the ubiquitous claim of free speech that either stands by itself or is attached to any of the various excuses. The free speech argument is moot. In Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District (1969), the Supreme Court decided that "conduct by the student, in class or out of it, which for any reason - whether it stems from time, place, or type of behavior - materially disrupts classwork or involves substantial disorder or invasion of the rights of others is, of course, not immunized by the constitutional guarantee of freedom of speech." But the other principle at work is called "in loco parentis" which holds that in certain situations, school being one, the entity- in this case the school- assumes the role of the parent while the student is in school. And, yes, students who are over the age of 18 or who turn 18 before they graduate, implicitly agree to be bound by this when they enroll. This principle has been upheld over time. New Jersey v. T.L.O. (1985) upheld the search of lockers and other personal space while on school property, indicating that students are not afforded the same rights as adults in other settings and stating that while acting in loco parentis, school officials are still representatives of the state. In Hazelwood School District v. Kuhlmeier (1987) the Supreme Court ruled that "First Amendment rights of students in the public schools are not automatically coextensive with the rights of adults in other settings, and must be applied in light of the special characteristics of the school environment." When we (as faculty) confiscate a phone, if the student wants to remove the battery or the card that's fine- we are not interested in going through the phone, we are interested in stopping the disruptive behavior. However, if we have reason to believe that there is something untoward going on, we certainly follow up. Do school administrators in Framingham have the responsibility and the right to do what they are doing? Probably, if the student action "materially disrupts classwork or involves substantial disorder" and they have substantial reason to believe the cell phone use is part of that.
If you enter the correct code, you get an "Invalid Code" message and get to view the real contact info.
Entering the wrong code gets you a "Correct Code" message and a blank contact list. Unless you retry within 60 sec, all of the data in the phone's NVRAM automatically gets fragged and overwritten with contacts named "F. U. Pig" and "A. Narchy".
-b.
Parents love to use the emergancy rap, but what does that do? Most states if not all REQUIRE a parent or guardian to be present to pull a kid out of school if they are under 18, and the parent to phone the building if they are over. Likewise these things are not being use for emergancys but for the most part for kids to screw around in school. We have a hard enough time to force kids to even pay attention in school (dont give me the bad teachers rap, thats just a copout for letting kids fuck off) the less distractions the better.
Why is it for hundreds of years things where perfectly fine without these devices but only NOW are they needed. Its a excuse by people when they should be putting there foot down. Sure it might violate kids rights, but the way things are going these days, kids wont even KNOW there rights are being violated they so rarely pay attention to what they need to learn.
And you wonder how a moron could be elected president?
"Slashdot, where telling the truth is overrated but lying is insightful."
If it's a private school, this is a double-edged sword if the student remembers to use a "technological measure" to protect his phone. School officials, unlike law-enforcement, do not have a DMCA exemption. :-)
Cop steals student's data, student says "1201(a)(1)(A)", cop says "1201(e)", student says "4th Amendment" and cop loses.
Private school principal steals student's data, student says "1201(a)(1)(A)" and principal loses thousands of dollars.
Implement a "technological measures to control access" today, kids.
BTW, had to edit this post to inject "private school" a couple places, because 1201(e) is .. funny-looking. I wonder if anyone who is a government-employee of any type, may be immune to DMCA.
Is there standard/bootleg firmware for phones to encrypt contacts, files, and even total access? I don't have a cell phone myself but if/when I eventually get one such a feature would be nice in case I lose it, to keep my stuff private.
In such a scenario, a school could still theoretically expell a student for refusing to turn over their phone password... if they want the barrage of bad press and angry parents.
sorry but UK fatalities caused by gun crime in 03-04 70 (source bbc), US fatalites 30,000+ (wikipedia).. in contrast the number of under 14's in the US killed accidentally by guns is around 70- carrying guns dosn't make you safer it makes you an idiot.
This is just th efirst paragraph from an article in "Reason magazine"
Gun Control's Twisted Outcome
Restricting firearms has helped make England more crime-ridden than the U.S.
By Joyce Lee Malcolm
On a June evening two years ago, Dan Rather made many stiff British upper lips quiver by reporting that England had a crime problem and that, apart from murder, "theirs is worse than ours." The response was swift and sharp. "Have a Nice Daydream," The Mirror, a London daily, shot back, reporting: "Britain reacted with fury and disbelief last night to claims by American newsmen that crime and violence are worse here than in the US." But sandwiched between the article's battery of official denials -- "totally misleading," "a huge over-simplification," "astounding and outrageous" -- and a compilation of lurid crimes from "the wild west culture on the other side of the Atlantic where every other car is carrying a gun," The Mirror conceded that the CBS anchorman was correct. Except for murder and rape, it admitted, "Britain has overtaken the US for all major crimes."
FalconShould there be a Law?
I would issue a school policy banning them all. I would all electronic devices other than a calcluator and a watch confiscated, and require the parents to come retrieve them.
No passing notes, electronic or otherwise, in class. They have no part in what the students are allegedly doing: learning.
On the other hand, searching the data, unless there was probable cause to believe that they were passing test data, violates the US Constitution. No public school is in loco parentis.
And no, if my kids were still in school, they would *not* carry phones. They can call when they get home, the way kids have done for 50 years.
mark "like me and my kids"
I seem to remember taking anyone's personal property (phones, or otherwise) is called THEFT. And that supercedes and "policy" anyone may have about anything.
E xcerpts.html
----
This message sent from a sub $100 ANARCHY PC (486/linux/opera 5.1). I get them for free from schools (sweet irony), recycle them, install an old (486 runnable) version of linux on their 640mb harddrives and NIC, and set the default webpages to either polical information pages or wikipedia (wikipedia rocks). Oh yeah, and spray on glue a photocopy of a huge ANARCHY SIGN on the side of the case. THe ANARCHY PC. Give them back to the kids, who deserve it. After all, they've all had a slander game run on them, told they were stupid and needed to be "educated", and after that their freedoms for the next 12 years were taken under that bullshit guise.
Information, of any sort, is power. Power to resist. Power to fight the police state back.
Sample URL I default set browsers to:
http://thirdworldtraveler.com/Book_Excerpts/Book_
Remember, education is made MANDATORY in this country, to feed them a diet of pablum about democracy and that they live in a land of consent, when really its all a sham, they never were given the opportunity to vote on even a single law, and yet they are forced to live in such a state. If you are forced to go somewhere, and then forced to abid by some policy, and then forced to have your posessions removed from you... well...
I would never sent my kids to school. They don't teach you to think critically for yourself. They teach you to feedback "right" or "wrong" answers.
I encourage everyone to setup homebased computer recycling projects and build ANARCHY PCs and give them to teenagers or anyone that has no computer at all.
ANARCHY does not equal CHAOS. ANARCHY equals freedom. The freedom to be left alone. To pursue your own destiny without interference.
Maybe we need a zeroize function for our cell phones. Crypto equipment often has a zeroize feature that quickly erases all sensitive data from memory upon operator command or the detection of tampering. Modern crypto equipment is designed to be of little or no value to the enemy if the keys are erased. My GPS receiver has a similar function, that erases all waypoints and any other information that might be considered sensitive.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
I know of at least one case - you know the old glass cabinets? A teacher throw a kid through one pretty sure he had some scares.
Anyway if you run your school right, no corporal punishment is needed and you will have kids interested in learning. If you run the school so that you need corpoal punishment you should be sacked.
Freedom or George Bush
Sure the laws are vague, but doesn't that offer a certain amount of protection? You can simply state that you consent to no searches, and if the other party continues with the search, they are liable (with the help of a good lawyer) for any constitutional breach. In fact, the vagueness benefits you more than the enforcement agents.
At any rate, times do change. Laws change to fit the times. A bit of flexibility can certainly be of benefit.
You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
I was not kidding!
I've recently been watching the Linear Algebra, Introductory Physics, and Differential Equations courses from MIT's OCW. Wow! I'm actually left speechless by the quality of education these kids get. In the first lecture of the DiffEq course the professor stated that most of the students should have seen (and learned about) differential equations in high school.* If not, they could easily read the book and figure out what one was. That was his introduction. While I appreciate this lecture style now, I can assure you, I was vastly unprepared coming out of high school. I can also assure you that most of my high school math teachers would have trouble defining what a differential equation was. Is this sad -- yes.
I haven't seen MIT's OCW though I like the idea. As for being ready for calc or DE in high school, I don't know how many students are ready though I believe if it is worked on most can be ready for them. From personal experience I've found out there are some in schools that simply don't know much. This happened to me. When I was in 6th grade near the end of the year the jr high sent people to my school and after being tested and then I met with a counselor. They told me that I should take algebra but because I didn't kow how to do square roots I wouldn't be able to take it. So I spent from then 'til 10th grade taking as high a math class as I could without take algebra. In 10th grade because of something the teacher did in class, he took my homework and ripped it up in front of class, I got real mad and stormed out of the class. I went straight to my counselor and told her I needed to get out of that class and saaid what happened. She looked at my scores and said I should of been taking alegebra and I said I couldn't because I didn't know how to do square roots. She told me alegebra is where you learn to do them, and asked me where I heard otherwise. Anyway, because she said it was too late to put me in an alegebra class she put me into "pre alegebra". I'm sure that if the original counselor had put me into alegebra I would of been ready for calc and DE in high school, and would of loved to take classes by MIT.
How are kids supposed to take education seriously when this is the trash that we give them? Did I study in High School? No. I regret this now, only because I understand the role of 'busy work' in society. I really regret not dropping out, getting a GED, going to work, and signing up for courses at my local community college.** I would have learned so much more.
Unfortunately I didn't study, er do homework, much in high school either. Two of my favorite teachers told me I'd be a straight A student if only I did the homework but my retort was why do the homework if I know the material? Now I know, because I didn't develop the habit of doing homework I had a real hard tyme doing it when I started college. I also realize I could of gotten scholarships and other finacial aid to go to college, instead I went into the army to money to go to college. A friend did what you suggest, in 10th grade she withdrew from school and took the ged. She was then able to take classes at a community college, she earned her AA when most students her age were graduating from high school. I'm thinking maybe I could of done the same thing.
FalconShould there be a Law?
.. lawsuit!
Only 'flamers' flame!
Does slashdot hate my posts?
Most cell phones have a master clear/master reset function already. It requires some significant user intervention (navigate a few menus and then input a PIN code) but it is there. It doesn't do anything for tampering, but then I would imagine just locking the phone would be a significant defense against the average school administrator.
What is right about drug testing? What is wrong about letting people do what they want as long as they aren't harming anyone else?
Teaching for tests is better than not teaching, and, frankly, arts and music aren't very useful.
Teaching for thinking and the opportunities education opens up is even better, teaching for tests doesn't teach to think. Arts and music aren't "useful"? Try and ask the RIAA and the MPAA if they think the arts aren't useful. The members of these organizations make billions of dollars as do some artists, admittedly not all but some do. Knowing the arts also leads to more creativity and not just in the arts but also in the sciences. Art also enriches culture. Art is very much useful!
FalconShould there be a Law?
What if the dog dies at home?
Yes it is, but I disagree with them. The UK has some pretty serious problems right now, and IMNSHO an awful lot of them stem from politically correct initiatives that affect how children may be treated and the rights they have. On the one hand, no forms of corporal punishment are now allowed in our schools, and parents must be wary of even smacking their children for fear of being accused of child abuse. On the other hand, antisocial behaviour has become one of the biggest problems facing our society. I've seen one of my neighbours confronting kids who were about to key the side of his car, and heard one of them shout at him that he couldn't do anything, because the kid was under 10 and he couldn't commit a crime - and I live in a pretty good neighbourhood compared to many places. Similar stories abound, often with responsible adults (including parents and teachers) winding up in court or otherwise under suspicion, while Joe Angelic seems untouchable even if caught red-handed doing something he shouldn't be.
Now, it doesn't take a genius to spot the connection here. Children don't yet have an adult level of maturity and responsibility; that's why they're still children. Thus it is manifestly unreasonable to treat them the same way as adults and expect the same response. I refuse to support the NSPCC (the biggest child protection charity in the UK) while they maintain that an absolute ban on smacking children is appropriate and use the "you wouldn't smack an adult" argument. We can debate the relative merits of corporal and other forms of punishment, and there are always the "My parents smacked me and it did me no harm" and "Well, I raised a child just fine without ever smacking them" brigades. However, I think even their axiom here is wrong: we do use violence, if necessary, to enforce the law on adults. This is, ultimately, what police forces and the military do. It may be reserved for use as a last resort, but the threat is always there. By excluding this possibility on a far smaller scale, children are actually being given a higher status than adults!
It happens that in this case, I do disagree with the rule. I think it's absurd that older children should have no default right to privacy, which is what this boils down to. You don't suddenly turn 18 and become responsible, and you're not automatically a menace to society at 17 years and 364 days. If there is a good reason for the adults responsible for that child to think they need to see something on the phone, that's one thing, but there must be a good reason.
Ultimately, it all comes down to the rights, freedoms and responsibilities thing, as it usually does in these discussions. The two are, or at least should be, fundamentally tied together. As long as you have adults who are legally responsible for minors, they need to have some degree of authority, and the minors can't reasonably expect the same level of rights and freedoms as if they were adults completely responsible for their own behaviour. On the other hand, as children grow older and behave more responsibly, it is inappropriate to deny them any extension of their rights and freedoms to match. Getting the balance wrong, in either direction, will inevitably lead to problems either where children are undisciplined and irresponsible, or where adults take advantage of them inappropriately.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Guess payback's hell but I used to read through all my teachers' day planners, notebooks, gradebooks, and test banks found in the old unprotected x286 DOS network we had.
It wasn't right when I did it 10+ years ago and it's not right what they're doing now.
- For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism.
If your argument that the population being six times higher in MA means that more people in MA will get hurt with fireworks (which is probably true, although maybe not six times more people)... wouldn't they go to the larger number of hospitals that also probably exist to service such a larger population?
I mean, it's not like there's only one hospital in each state. Certainly a higher population could result in busier hospitals, but it also results in more hospitals. It's sort of a flimsy reason to ban something. Around where I live you can't throw a rock without hitting a hospital. They're everywhere. But they weren't there ten years ago because no one lived here. Now it's busy and hospitals are popping up all over.
If they wanted to ban fireworks because it's a pain in the rear to clean bottle rocket sticks off of your lawn and roof, well, now that's something that's a bit more useful to me. Can't stand all the debris for the week before and after the 4th, geesh.
This is outrageous! Whats next? School knocking at your door because they must search your house for drugs? Bah! Schools are going way to far! Fuck schools! You evil bastards!
Linux, because a PC is a terrible thing to waste.
okay and when you do this to a grayhat proto-hacker don't be suprised when he decides to bring a spindle of boot and go copies of Boot and Nuke and decides to shred your office computer harddrives .
(i mean really, a 3 day holiday is plenty of time to kill a harddrive)
and just for fun im certain it would be possible to jimmy things so that it ends the process by max clocking the rom drive and blowing the tray out of the drive.
tampering with the data on a device is EVIL BAD AND WRONG (and besides gives a "get out of jail free card" to any kids that get caught "but officer we know that the teacher hacks the phones he nicks he must have put it there"
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To nearly ALL the slashdotters... WRONG!
Nearly all parents/guardians have signed consent to school policies and regulations before dumping their kids at school.
These kids' rights are vested in through their parents. And most of it were already given up when the parents signed along the dotted lings over to the school district supertiendents' staff.
THESE KIDS HAD NO RIGHTS TO BEGIN WITH, in school, at home, in public. Now, granted. We (at least in the Western Civilization) are however granted inalienable rights, BUT thats only to adults. Kids' rights are covered by proxy through adults.
To kids... Blame the parents for not being assertive for the kids' rights. To the parents, THANK GOD for school discipline. There is not enough of those "bend over, lemme get my fraternity board." That physical spanking has definitely been diminishing over the years.
Why do we attempt to institute school uniform, ban on contrabands, behavior policies and all that jazz? So, kids can LEARN. Learn to be a productive member of our society.
You're not allowed to leave campus for lunch, but students do anyway.
When I started junior high the jh I went to was in a small town and the jh and hs shared the same campus, some of the classes even had both jh and hs students in them. It was also an open campus, students could come and go. Some of my friends and I would walk to a cafe five minutes walk from the school for lunch, then we'd go across the street to a billiard wall to shoot some pool. I didn't really think much of it until we moved and my new school was closed.
A kid last year was jumped by another student who stabbed him with a sharpened lead pencil, and when he fought back, eventually knocking the attacker to the ground and kicking him, he got suspended. He didn't even know his attacker.
Something along similar lines happened to my nephew a few years ago. Another boy started picking on him during lunch and a french fry hit the boy so my nephew was suspended and some law enforcement officers were sent to my sister's home and a report was filed. Now, as for if a child of mine was assaulted, s/he defended themself and was suspended because of it I'd definately sue the school.
FalconShould there be a Law?
My last two cellphones had the capability to be locked immediately upon being powered up. You had to enter a pin in order to use it in any way.
If I were a student there, I'd enable this feature immediately. If they wanted to take my phone, I'd power it off first. If they wanted me to unlock it so they could snoop, I'd tell them to suck my balls.
Sure, they have the right to confiscate, but you don't have to comply with their attempt to dig through your digital data.
Cruising the internet on my TI-99/4A @ a whopping 300 baud!
If the students weren't doing anything wrong to begin with they wouldn't have to feel so invaded.
This is just part of a larger ideological change toward authoritarianism. From cities banning smoking anywhere in the city (not just public places), from people wanting to tax soda and fast foods to discourage their consumption, to people wanting to ban cold medicine because it can be used to make crystal meth, to people wanting to restrict video games, to laws restricting pornography and "hateful speech", to laws that require you to wear seat belts and helmets on motorcycles, to laws that say what formats can be played on digital music players, to gun control, to police checkpoints for sobriety... Since the end of the cold war Western society has kind of abandoned the old school liberal "live and let live" philosophy for one where we want a central authority to use force to solve all our problems. Now that there isn't a big evil empire to judge ourself against we are adopting the same police-state mentality that we were fighting against during the cold war.
So a school wants to be able to check out people's cell phone records. Well, so what? The IRS is already entitled to records of all your financial transactions, and you must be able to supply it on demand or go to jail. The FBI can already wiretap you without a warrent in "national security" issues. The U.S. has already abandoned large parts of the Bill of Rights ("campaign finance reform" restrictions on speech, gun control, seizing assets of suspected drug dealers without a trial)... and most of the police state tactics are just as popular elsewhere in North America and Western Europe as in the United States.
This is not about cell phones... this is part of a bigger pattern of authoritarianism. The trouble is nearly all people support some sort of police state tactics - They may feel drugs should be legalized (good!), but then they want guns banned (bad!)... they feel gays should be allowed to marry, adopt kids, and be entitled to the same rights as everyone else (good!), but then they want to ban speech that gays might find "hateful or offensive" (bad!). They want the U.S. military to stop occupying Iraq (good!), but they want the U.S. military to occupy New Orleans (bad!). They want to stop the FBI from seizing people's financial records without warrent in order to hunt "terrorists" (good!), but then they want the IRS to seize people's financial records without warrent to tax for the welfare state (bad!). Nearly everyone has a set of issues or behavior that they want to see the iron fist of the government come crashing down on. Nearly everyone has a few issues that they are rabidly authoritarian about. And, as a democratic compromise, we get all the most reactionary authoritarian policies of each person's political views implemented as the policies of state.
From my own experiences in public schools I have found the vast majority of students do not enjoy their time at school, nor do they want to learn. They aren't particularily concerned with their futures or the long-lasting benefits of their education.
There will always be a large number of trouble makers and disruptive students in any public school. Corporal punishment would be an excellent way of dealing with them.
The methods for corporal punishment were usually quite well defined - typically a belt or a rod was smacked against the palm of your non-dominant (so you can still write comfortably) hand or your posterior. When followed properly there was no reasonable chance of permanent damage.
On the other hand, knifes etc arent the kind of things I'd carry *in* the school grounds
The hs I went to had many people carrying knives while there. Many FFA, Future Farmers of Amerca, members wouldn't think of not carrying at least one of their knives, most of the tyme a pocket knife. While not all the tyme, most of it I carried mine.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Unfortunately corporal punishment was long gone by the time I went to school. However my parents weren't afraid of using the strap.
Pussy. Do you expect your parents to do the work for you? I used the strap on myself. I wore a cilice under my jeans. I fastened thrice a day.
That's the fuckin'way you do it.
the courts have ruled as such every time, move along nothing to see
its only a matter of time until you hand over your kid at age 5 or so and wave bye-bye
You don't get a cold from being in the cold. You get a cold from catching a virus.
Now when you go and *stand* in the cold a lot, or if you don't get enough sleep, (it's called physiological stress), your body needs to prioritise it's power distribution. 9 times out of 10, the immune system can catch up later, so its set up to get cut out of the loop first.
So when there's a cold virus going around, you'll probably not catch it right away. Your body will be on the ball, and manage to repel the boarders each time.
Of course, if you've been exposed to all kinds of bacteria and virusses all day especially when you're cooped up indoors with others all day, like when there's cold weather, and THEN step outside and weaken your resistence for a bit, Presto! The cold virusses will finally manage to establish a beachhead, and there you go, HACHOO!
In reality things are even a tad more sophisticated than that, but yeah, you actually *can* catch a cold by stepping out into the cold. It's just that you can't magically catch it by standing out there all day. If there's no viruses out there, you won't catch a cold no matter what you do.
But if you *have* been exposed to the virus, exposing yourself to stressors might be the last straw to let the virus in.
MA safety belt & motorcycle helmet laws (You're too stupid and irresponsible to make your own decisions about safety)
MA makes possession of consumer grade fireworks a felony (The message from the legislature to the voters: You're too goddamn stupid to handle things NH residents safely use all day)
Not just MA has safety belt and motorcycle helmet laws, most states of the USA do as well. As regards helmets, only a few states don't require them. Arizona and Minnesota are the only ones I can name though others don't require them either. And MN don't require them because of a ballot initiative, voters put on the ballot and approved of driving, riding, motorcycles without them. Most state also have restrictions on fireworks. As for NH, doesn't "Don't Tread On Me" come from there? NH is also where the Free State Project is taking place.
FalconShould there be a Law?
the children? Come on kids, you want to be safe don't you?
Python
Seat belts may save some lives but they kill some as well. I knew a girl who was in a car when it was in an accident. She wasn't injured in the accident itself but the car caught on fire and the seat belt was jammed so she burned to death. To me that is the worst way to die. Helmets don't work all the tyme either. I am a prime example of that. I was riding my bike after some classes in college when I was hit by a moving van. The side view mirror of the van hit the backpack I had on and sent me flying. No damage was done to my head at all, I didn't even get a scratch on it. However while I was in a coma the docs told my family it's be a miracle if I lived. Well, now I am a survivor of a TBI, Traumatic Brain Injury. Most of the the therapists I saw said a helmet wouldn't of had helped me at all. The TBI wasn't caused by blunt trauma to the head but by the violent shaking my brain experienced and a helmet wouldn't have prevented it. The point is is that there shouldn't be a law requiring either seat belts or helmets, that each person should be held accountable to the decisions they make.
FalconShould there be a Law?
ever seen a wreck with someone not wearing a seatbelt? no? Well, usually said driver is ejected from the vehicle - sometimes even when it's a relatively minor crash, that a seatbelt wearer would have just been jostled, and been able to relatively safely stop his vehicle afterwords. Now, when the driver is thrown from the seat (not even neccisarly the car, just the pedals and wheel) - there's no chance of damage control after the fact.
Have you even seen someone burned to death because the seat belt they wore was jammed? It's not a pretty sight, or pleasant smell.
FalconShould there be a Law?
I know this seems insensitive, but try not to take it as a rhetorical question. I really want to know.
I mean, my brother started homeschooling because kids were teasing him. TEASING. Would it be too hard to get your parents involved? Have them complain to the school, the school board, the local media, or simply move to another district?
There are still places where they do more than just suspend you for fighting -- they'll actually have you sit down with a counsellor and work things out. And certainly, if you were only defending yourself, you don't get suspended, you just get to take time off class to talk to the counsellor -- which is usually much more fun than the class itself.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
...Since when did criminal prosecution and investigation become part of what schools do? Isn't that a job for the police? and even the cops don't get access to cell phones and cell phone logs without a warrant (or the PATRIOT act...)
This is insane.
You're wrong. There is much more energy in the purposeful application of one's fist - or a knife - than in even the nastiest handgun cartridges (since we're talking about carrying it around, I'll limit myself to high-grade handgun cartridges. Mousegun cartridges can't even hold a candle).
You're aware that for every 300 Americans, the US has 299 guns in private hands?
Ever notice the streets do not run red with blood?
Yeah, neither did I.
If a school representative thinks that one of my friends from outside of school is hot, they should just ask me for their contact info.
Lock the phone--
On mine, and every other phone I've seen, you could require a PIN to unlock any features in any way, and the lock is stored on the SIM card so it can't be bypassed.
Most non-SIM phones also have the ability to do a complete lockdown.
They can take the phone and play around with it, but just tell them you forgot the password and haven't taken it to the phone shop to get it fixed yet.
Get over it...If you don't want your cellphone examined, don't bring it on to school property.
Some students do more than just go to school and may have good reasons for having their phones with them. I didn't have a car when I was in hs and no there were no buses running for those who stayed for extra curricular activities. Because I was on my school's swim and dive team and my mom wouldn't let me run or walk home from practice she would wait in her car for me and practice didn't always end at the same tyme. Now if cellpones had been available and affordable back then I could have called her when practice was over. Other students had things they did after school themselves, like work, and having a cellphone would of enabled them to remain in contact in case of an emergency.
FalconShould there be a Law?
the hell out of the american school system if you can.
Home schooling is your friend.
Of particular interest to you may be John Gatto's book,
The Underground History of American Education.
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/index.htm
Non sequitur: Your facts are uncoordinated.
Otherwise, it has to do with: Are we good painters, good sculptors, great poets? I mean all the things that we really venerate and honor in our country and are patriotic about. In that sense, this new knowledge has all to do with honor and country but it has nothing to do directly with defending our country, except to make it worth defending.
Thanks, I'll try to remember that. Something like the arts are worth it because they life more enjoyable.
FalconShould there be a Law?
You spelled "warrant" wrong.
If the drug dealers know that their phone records may be searched, then they won't use cellphones. There were drug dealers in schools long before there were cellphones in schools.
All i can say is if they start this in my kid's school district, he will NOT be carrying his phone around any more.
"I forgot my mantra."
You cite seemingly applicable case law, but in the situation at hand, the issue is not a question of searching a purse. In the T.L.O. case, the New Jersey Supreme Court addressed three distinct questions: (1) what is the proper standard for judging the reasonableness of a school official's search of a student's purse; (2) on the facts of this case, did the school official violate that standard; and (3) whether the exclusionary rule bars the use in a criminal proceeding of evidence that a school official obtained in violation of that standard. The Supreme Court held (1) that the correct standard is one of reasonable suspicion rather than probable cause; (2) that the standard was violated in this case; and (3) that the evidence obtained as the result of a violation may not be introduced in evidence against T.L.O. in any criminal proceeding, including this delinquency proceeding. You, however, are comparing apples to owls and it don't fly.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
Wouldn't the time it takes to search through a student's cellphone be better spent keeping an eye on kids that are ditching class and dealing during breaks and lunches? It's alot eaisier to spot and observe the kids who reek of pot, hang out in hidden areas of campus, leave campus altogether, and flee whenever staff comes around. You would think that people who are trying to preserve a learning and educational environment would AT LEAST be excercising some degree of intelligence.
Besides, its a blatant invasion of privacy, since the cellphone is personal (read: PRIVATE) property of the owner. Book bags and lockers are a different matter. Lockers are the property of the school and therefore can be searched by officials at will. Book bags can also be searched, to a degree, since they can be used to conceal actual weapons and actual drugs, although it is still a blatant violation of privacy. However, cell phones CANNOT be used to conceal anything physical. I seriously doubt that ANYONE is able to send a baggie of pot as text attatchement. No weapons, drugs, or anything physical can be stored in a cell phone, and the call history is completely irrelevent. School officials should not be able to take cell phones away from students unless the student uses the phone itself as a weapon (which is hard, since I doubt that anyone except the most geeky among us would even give a second thought to bringing one of those old-shool "briefcase" phones with them [I sure miss mine!!!]), or is disruptive in class with it, as is quite frequent. Even in confiscating the phone, administrators have no legal right to the information contained within the phone. And, since cell phones are technically computer/information systems, unauthorized access by anyone without permission from the student, except with a signed search warrant from a judge, constitutes a computer crime.
And a message to the teachers of that school: Get off your fat, unionized asses and go LOOK for the dealers. It's not that hard. Oh wait, I think Johnny just sent some LSD as a text message.
P.S.: Anyone who uses that lame "Think of the children!" argument ought to have the snot beaten out of them.
-----
Sig Sauer
Knowing Google's lust for data collection, the Soviet Union is still alive and well inside the psyche of Sergey Brin....
I used to laugh at the idea of home schooling (given stereotypes you see in movies) but given the direction public schools have taken AND the fact that I have friends who have home schooled their children and their kids are very bright and have been accepted into GOOD colleges, I think that home schooling is the way to go nowadays. Public schools spend far too much time babysitting the students, focusing on "self esteem" and political agendas, and too little time on academics.
The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
Hey kids, remember the French Revolution?
Start learning about things called 'Guillotines' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillotine) and 'Battering Rams'.
And don't forget the 'You Suck!' cell phone wallpaper for when you get frisked!
But not all of them. This might be getting close to stepping over the bouundries unless there is probable cause.
The parents rights are also not superseeded just beacuse the child goes to school.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
You seem to be constructing some scenario in which the student learns a lot from a teachers special way of teaching, and knows a lot, and then somehow can't answer the basic questions in front of them. That is just not the case.
I'm not constructing that at all. My main concern about "No Child Left Behind", well three really, is that one, the federal government has no business in regulating or controlling education in any way, shape, or form. It's totally a matter at the state and more specifically local levels. Two, where's the money to improve schools? If a school doesn't make the grade they loose funding which only makes it harder to improve the school. And three, the focus is on improving test scores which then can lead to the decline of areas of study that can't be measured by testing.
FalconShould there be a Law?
The problem is government schoools. The people running them are drunk with power. They have even convinced some legislatures that they have rights overruling parental rights. That is why as long as I am able to I will home school my kids. That way they are not taught that perverts and pedophiles are to be idolized. They are not taught that we are more evil than the muslim head choppers. If you force your kids to attend government schools then you get what you get.
It happens in almost every town in America when the administration gets a phone. I have a Treo650- and as a test, to see if my school was really searching for data- I allowed my phone to be confiscated, AFTER I purposley missed a call in class [from a friend of course.] Since I had good standings in high school, they simply confiscated the phone and said I would be allowed to pick the phone up at the end of the day. I was cool with it, because I knew that I had locked my Treo, and purposley did not press OK to my Alert screen, knowing that if the Administration in all their wisdom and thirst for knowledge pressed OK for me, there would be no more alert- just my infuriated vice principle staring at a password screen which he could not get through. As it turns out, the phone was handed to me with the password screen, and not the alert screen. When confronted on the issue, he simply said "Your lucky", and walked away. My friend who called me (due to the alert screen, his name showed up) was not so lucky- they confiscated his phone and made his parents come in to retrieve it. Although this seems like rambling, there is a point, and that is don't be stupid. Almost every single school in America requests that phones NOT BE BROUGHT INTO THE CLASSROOM OR BUILDING. If you choose to violate that, then I am not saying it is ok for the administration to look through your contacts messages and pictures because they are searching for "Drugs", but maybe a little reprocussions for the students could finally get the idea through to them- they are not supposed to have the phones there in the first place.
We will be happy to allow you to carry a gun downtown, or anywhere in town. You are free to carry it in plain sight, with no permit at all. It just needs to be holstered (an unholstered gun can be considered brandished which can get you in trouble) and plainly in view. If you don't wish to have it in plain view, you can apply for a concealed carry permit. You need to take a safety class for that, and pass a background check that makes sure you aren't a criminal, but then you can carry a gun concealed.
Of course you are expected to be a responsable citizen with it and not to "disrupt anybody". You can't go pointing it at people or waiving it in their face, that's disruptive and hostile, but just carrying it is fine, you see it all the time.
Definitely. A few years ago, one of the students of the local high school was drafted by a professional team and signed a 7 figure contract. Hasn't given a dime back to the any of the teams/atheletic depts/boosters. Makes the paper for everything else though--including a DWI.
It shouldn't have even got this bad in the first place.
Where are the parents?
My mom's a substitute teacher... kids ARE getting worse and less respectful of authority, and technology (cell phones, iPods, MySpace...) is only part of the problem.
I say rid the school of all of it's technology (like computers, since they're completely pointless anyway) and do an EMP blast during the morning bell.
Buckle your ROFL belt, we're in for some LOLs.
Framingham is a big place. It has the distinction of being the largest municipality in the United States, that is still a town. Nearly 70,000 people, and they have no mayor or city council; they have selectmen and town meeting. They are like a puppy that grew big, and still thinks they're small. Framingham is home to TJ Max, Bose, Staples and a few more you've probably heard of. Any Framingham townie can give you a tour of the Knox Trail as it passes through Framingham, the trail over which Maj. General Henry Knox transported cannon from Fort Ticonderoga to Dorchester Heights to drive the British out of Boston. Sit along Edgell Road, late at night the night before Patriots Day, and you will see the reinactor marching to Concord (pronounced Konk-urd, dammit) to warn the Minutemen it was about to hit the fan.
No, I dont think the people of Framingham will put up with this. It just isn't in their blood.
Fair enough :)
Apologies for my heated reply :), just feel strongly on the issue :).
Not at the school I'm governor at. We've been threatened lawsuits, and still have not returned items.
Sigh. Analyzing cellphone contents? How frickin' useless. Putting aside the fact that it's a violation of privacy - how often will they find incriminating messages on the phone? If drugs are rampant then start testing kids for drugs using standard drug-tests. Are they carrying weapons? Use metal detectors and pat-downs.
Analyzing cellphones must be the single most impotent method I've ever heard of to reduce violence and drug-use.
> Things were bad in the late 80s, but dear god... the crap kids have to endure NOW from AuthoriNazi administrators is just over the top.
I'll accept that there are some AuthoriNazi admins out there, but by far the biggest force screwing up the schools is the combination of school boards and insurance companies that won't stand up to Nazi parents, who won't stand for their child having to follow all the same rules that the other kids have to follow.
The school district I worked in last year is being torn apart by that situation.
Personally I'm always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught. -- Sir Winston Churchill
Leave your damn cell phones at home. It's school, you are there to learn not to socialize with your buddies at the other school.
Meh.
This is stupid. That's the only word for it. Schools are run by the most arrogant, underqualified, overblown, jerks ever to walk this earth. Trust me on this one, I've been forced to deal with a principle and a bunch of kids for racism. Know why? I used the word "serf". I will telll my kid that if the school wants to search his phone, tell them to get a warrant. If they say the can anyway, tell them to take a hike and refuse. DO WHATEVER YOU HAVE TO TO PREVENT THEM FROM VIOLATING YOUR RIGHTS. I've got a huge bonus over almost any other person: I have no internet trail that could be traced back to me. I use 7 different computers, at varying times, I have no myspace or similar place account, and I store no contacts in my cell phone. The only thing that could concieveably be traced back to me is my photobucket account. Not to mention that if a kid throws a punch at my kid, I'll tell him to do what he needs to short of killing or maiming the kid to get him to stop attacking him. If the school tries to suspend him, I'll say quite a few rude words then tell them I'm taking my kid out of school. Not like I've had a bad experience with the education system...
...unschooling is bail.
Google "Teenage Liberation Handbook" for a key.
You are a super bitch. Please die.
The alternative is jail.
Ive experienced the admin nazis first hand. When i was 18 i was a senior and dog sick. i was told i would have to wait for the school to call my parents b/c i was a minor and unable to.. To which i replied im 18 and im an adult.
Basically i was told to screw off by the nazis in control and i ended up staying at school the entire day just b/c some pencil pushing dip dunks were on an ego trip.
but justice was served in the end. The fucking principle came to my dads business after fucking w/ him about my brother and some bs and signed a contract for work. needless to say the work was quite complex and not cheap but they signed a contract to pay for honest work renered so when they came to bitch we shoved that legalistic crap in their mouth and forced them to swallow it.
it was beautiful.
Fuck a lawsuit, I'd be filing a police report if you ignored the due processes.
There are good ways and bad ways of calling; either you keep the schedule of your kid in mind and you will only contact off-school-time; just as people can contact me off-working-hours. The bad way is to call whenever suits you because "the kid has a phone afterall" disturbing the rest...
--- I am known for the ones who want to find me on the net. Is that a privacy risk or a privilege? One might wonder..
I enjoyed school myself, but yes, school needs to be reformed. Below are some ideas.
History classes can change their format. Assign chapter(s) to read overnight (between school days). Teacher lectures for a few days or so. Discussions amongst the whole class are present during lectures. Teacher could hand out worksheets, and the teacher could have a master worksheet with all the answers. Students could be given "participation" points for answering a question correctly. This replaces traditional homework by having homework done in class as a class all aloud. Then test grades make up a majority of the overall grade.
Whenever the government claims to be doing something "for the children" you can be sure it is up to no good. Legislation that obviously benefits children doesn't usually need to be labelled/touted as such. Having school officials searching kids lockers, frisking them at school entrances, confiscating their cell phones, etc. is exactly the sort of thing one would expect in a police state.
I would hope that enough parents whould be aware enough of their Consitutional rights to fight back against these offensive actions by the Gestapo wannabes at their kids' schools.
I recall when it was the "War on [Some] Drugs" that was an excuse for many violations of people's rights and liberties by Big Brother. Look at how the gun grabbers use "For the children" as a shield to protect their statist anti-2nd-Amendment agenda. The government has a long history of creating crises and then stating that the only way to deal with the crises is to restrict our rights and limit our liberties. George Orwell was right.
How hard is it to get a cell phone that requires a person to ID him/her-self in order to use it? (I imagine a simple password or biometric system would suffice.) When some nosy school official wants to snoop around the information in little Johnny's cell phone, she can't do so. Little Johnny has been told that the cell phone is his to use but remains the property of his parents and they don't want anyone else to use it or access any information it contains. They have expressly forbidden him to allow any school official to do so... Blah, blah, blah. The point is that many parents do like for their kids to be able to keep in touch and want their kids to have cell phones.
Wiser parents want to protect their kids' rights under the Constitution. I think that simple security technology coupled with greedy lawyers who will cheerfully sue school systems might just solve the problem.
"You're young, you're drunk, you're in bed, you have knives; shit happens." -- Angelina Jolie
I don't think I follow. The rights of the school, acting in loco parentis, do not exceed the parents. Neither do they have to in order to search a telephone on a student's person, unless you are saying that even the parents do not have that right. If what you are suggesting is that the school should not or cannot exercise their rights for such activity when acting in loco parentis if the parent has expressly objected to it, then I think the school's answer would be quite simple: either parental permission for such searches is to be given or the student is not allowed to bring the phone on school grounds. While I can imagine perhaps the potential embarassment caused to child and parent as a result of such a search, I have difficulty imagining how such a search, or permission for such a search, would interfere with your reasons for giving the child a telephone. I would not go so far as to suggest that students who are doing nothing wrong fear nothing from such a search, I would go so far as to say it would be typical of most parents to believe that their child would not be engaged in any improper behavior, evidence of which might appear on a telephone given to them for reasons of safety. Yet this is demonstrably not true, or else all school children would be impeccably well-behaved, and doubtless the school would not bother wasting time and administrative resources searching student cell phones.
I consider the time I spent in music in high school and college to have been very useful to me, though I don't think they've earned me a dime.
If you want to talk about useless, let's get rid of sports.
I consider the time I spent in sports in high school and college to have been very useful to me, though I don't think they've earned me a dime.
If you want to talk about useless, let's get rid of music. It's insane how much money is cranked into music. I don't have a problem with after school music activities, but seeing schools that don't have enough teachers or classrooms, but waste them on useless full-time music teachers and band classes and band rooms really bugs me.
Now, I don't actually believe that - I firmly believe activities are important, and you should provide as many activities that students are interested in as possible. But to suggest music good sports bad is just assaninely selfish. My wife sucks at sports and is good at music and did music in HS and college. I suck at sports AND music, but did to sports in HS and college, as well as things like student government and various geek activities. High schools should offer all of those.
Now, it may be a little silly to spend millions of extra dollars on a FOOTBALL STADIUM, but next to big infrastructure like that, music and art are the MOST expensive activities to maintain, because they are the only ones that usually get classes-for-credt and full time staff and full-time, during-the-day facilities. The people who coach sports and other activities are usually regular teachers who work outside of school hours for a small salary stipend. Music and art programs usually get full time staff who do just that.
But, if a school is in financial straights, the first thing to go should be any expensive sports captial investments. The SECOND thing to go should be music and art, since you can save the most money there with the least impact (compared to canning other things).
So, take your pansy art/music elitism and blow it out your ass. Just because the jocks took your lunch money in high school doesn't make your activity superior. (My wife, to this day, shares the same anti-sports bias that you do because the sports people were mean to the art/music/drama people in high school. Of course, she gets mad when I point out that the artsy people probably would have made fun of any rednecks that tried to be in the play. Or that the rednecks couldn't afford instruments.)
paintball
I have no real clue of how things go in the US schools but DARN... It seriously sounds like you all REALLY got off on the wrong foot, and like everyone put out their brain before going to school there.... Here in Belgium, Europe, we have little or no problems with all these phone and search issues... Surprise surprise, thanks to our GOOD gun policies (as in DON'T have one unless you're a certified hunter)we don't even need to pass through metaldetectors to get into schools. Just like anywhere else in the modern world, many, many schoolchildren have cellphones, but the rule is that they are not allowed to be on during classes. If yours is on during class, it can be taken away from you till the end of your schoolday, then it is returned. The school has absolutely NO rights to dig into the contents of your phone OR your backpack or anything. If they feel they need to search someones bag (which happens maybe once a year, if that much) they call a cop to be present. A cop has the right to search your bags, but not your person of cellphone. The school itself isn't allowed to search the bag, only the cop they call is allowed to do that. Also a big difference I've noticed here is the "drug issue". Here in Belgium smoking a joint really isn't a big deal, if you carry a few grams for your own use, that's perfectly fine. Hower, you cannot be stoned or drunk or under the influence while attending school/classes. So as soon as your schoolday is over, you can do what you like, just not in school. Carrying afew grams in your backpack to school isn't an issue as long as you DON'T use it on school property and as long as you are sober while you are in school. This seperation is, in my oppinion one of the great things about Belgium. State and church are seperated, so is home and school/work. As long as you do well in school or work your teachers/empoyer coun't give a rats arse what you do in your free time. That's the way it should be.
While it is true that schools have in loco parentis powers those powers do NOT supersede my rights, authority, and responsibility as a parent.
Nobody has the right to be present or bring objects onto another person's property without permission of that property owner.
The school has the right to determine who, and what, is allowed to be on school property. If the school can ban cell phones from their property entirely (They can) then they can also decide to ban them, unless you agree that if you bring a cell phone to school you agree to have it searched.
It's the same thing with DUI/DWI in most states - you need a license to be able to operat a motor vehicle. The state has the right to deny you that license. And the state thus also has the right to only give you a license if you agree that you can be 'searched' for alcohol consumption if you are operating a motor vehicle. If you don't agree, most states give you the same penalty as if you'd had a DUI.
You sound like another 'my rights are more important than everyone else's rights' selfish american parent. You're the same people who ruin little league games. Your rights must be balenced against the rights of others. Specifically, your right to contact your kid whenever you want is secondary to the rights of all the other kids to get an education.
paintball
I call bullshit. There was lots of abuse of corporal punishment. It sometimes went hand in hand with mental abuse too. My own brother to this day thinks of himself as an idiot because of his 5th grade teacher and principal, even though he has a well above average IQ. We moved into that school district and his teacher for some insane reason decided that he had not received an education up to that point so she gave him 1st grade text books and assignments. Worse she marked correct answers to problems and questions as incorrect. Every time he objected she took him out in the hall and whipped him with a paddle or struck him with a ruler while in class. If he objected to that he was sent to the office where the principal paddled him hard enough to bruise and bring blood.
Several visits by my mother to the teacher and principal didn't resolve this issue so a complaint was filed with the school board. My mother was told the school board had every confidence in their teacher and principal, so she began filing reports with the police, who just filed them apparently. My mother then went to the County Attorney's office, who like the others really wasn't interested especially since his term in office was almost over.
Later after a particularly bad beating my mother went to see the new County Attorney. When he asked to see the physical damage, my mother told my brother to turn around and pull his pants down and his shirt up. They were stuck to him and my mother had to assist, including removing the bandages. The County Attorney then requested permission to take photographs. While the photographs were being taken he called the sheriff's office and got the sheriff over. He then showed the sheriff the damage and asked him to go bring the teacher and principal to see him.
After a while the sheriff returned with them and a couple of deputies. My brother was again asked to display the damage and then we were all asked to wait outside while he talked to the principal and teacher.
I have no idea what was said to them other then he stated afterwards that he told them just what he intended to make happen if there was one more report on them and that mother was to notify him immediately if there was any more problems. Whatever he said worked in that there were no more beatings and my brother was put to doing 5th grade work with the rest of the class. The whole thing was obviously pushed under the rug but never the less handled. The year was 1968.
There were lots of abuses of the corporal punishment system. As a percentage of the whole they were probably relatively small, but the ones that did exist and were documented and sometimes sued over were enough to get legislation against it. My life experiences with it is enough for me to never fully trust a school system, teacher or administrator.
>Is 18 the right bound? I don't know.
I wish more people asked that question and admitted they don't know the answer. I respect you for doing both.
Sometimes I daydream about leagl majority being defined by examination. A license to operate as an adult would be like a license to operate a car. An intolerable number of things could go wrong with that, but I could name a 60-year-old who doesn't meet his obligations or take responsibility for his actions. It's unjust that he's treated as an adult when self-disciplined 16-year-olds (don't laugh, I didn't say there were a *lot* of them) are legally children.
>The whole point of being a bully is to build up your own self-respect at the expense of someone else's, a kind of mental vampirism.
That is now the most recent "Best of Slashdot" entry in my journal. Thank you for the insight and the quotable expression of it.
Kids don't need cell phones in classes. Hell, high school students don't need cell phones PERIOD. I didn't have one when I went to school and I'm way smarter and more valuable than any of the current generation's hatchlings. But seriously, they're in class. Their attention should be focused on their studies so they can get a real goddamned job when they get out. They don't need to be contacted "right this minute" for anything, they have no lives, they're children goddamnit.
When they've reached a point where they are making big bucks and depended upon by their employer/family, then they can get their own cell phone. It's already bad enough that helicopter parents are spoiling their big kids in college. Teach the PARENTS to loosen the leash at a younger age so these kids can have the responsibility and maturity to be successful in their adult lives.
Cell phones should be banned from the moment the kid walks into the building. If they want to call their dealer during lunch/recess that's their business/problem.
-Billco, Fnarg.com
I don't have any specific stuff to hand, but basically, teachers in the UK have the right to remove anything that causes a disturbance or is detrimental to the safety of other people.
While a mobile phone doesn't cause the classroom to be any less safe, a mobile phone is considered a disturbance, and as long as the school rules clearly state that the phone will be confiscated and kept until the end or term/whenever - it can be. Refuse to hand over the phone, and you face temporary explusion.
Many workplaces also require mobile phones to be handed in upon entry to the building. If you refuse to comply, you'll most likely end up fired. This is no different.
No one was forced to take the bus either. They could always walk or get a ride with someone else. But if they took the bus, they must understand that they had to follow certain rules.
Like Blacks had to ride in the back of the bus?
FalconShould there be a Law?
The people who coach sports and other activities are usually regular teachers who work outside of school hours for a small salary stipend. Music and art programs usually get full time staff who do just that.
I don't know where you went to high school but at mine the sports coachs taught the sports they coached. Physical ed classes were divided up into many different sports with different teachers and that teacher coached the respective team. The basketball teacher coached the basketball team, the gymnastic teacher coached gynmastics and so on. The one sport this wasn't true for is the swim and dive team. We didn't have a swimming pool and swimming and diving weren't taught but we did have a swim and dive team, it was the only team I was ever on.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Often though, when drugs and alchohol are involved, not "harming anyone else" can easily turn into "losing complete control of oneself and harming other people." I know enough people killed/maimed by drunk/stoned drivers.
How many were caused by drunk versus stoned? Alcohol causes the drinker to become less cautious whereas marijuana does the opposite, someone stoned becomes more cautious. However one harmful is legal and the other is illegal. And it, hemp, wasn't made illegal because it was a danerous substance. It was made illegal because it could have potentially threaten the wealth of some powerful industrialists as well as others. Such as William Randolph Hearst, DuPont, and Mellon. It was made illegal because of the Marijuana Tax Act of 1937 yet during World War II the government made and showed to farmers the movie Hemp For Victory to encourage them to grow it as it was vital to the war effort.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Talk talk talk. It's going on all over, and you guys are so mad you're typing like crazy.
Go play another video game or something. It's over.
I agree. However, that means that no federal money goes to schools either. None.
Exactly! If the federal government were to stay within the boundaries established by the Constituion of the United States of America then the income tax could be gotten rid of as there wouldn't need to have such massive budgets, and what is left can pretty much be paid for with user fees, a low federal sales tax, and maybe a corporate tax. Then states, counties, and cities could fund education via property taxes.
FalconShould there be a Law?
I learned all this during research thinking I might homeschool my kids, at least through middle school, because I don't have a great deal of faith in the massive public school system and I can't afford private school.
One reason I thought of homeschooling any child I had is because I don't have faith in public education either. You're right about checking what the requirements are locally because they change with the location. For instance some require children to take certain tests whereas others may require other tests.
FalconShould there be a Law?
This is no different than passing notes in school. Now it's in an electronic form. The school has every right to take these electronic notes.
Encrypted (strong crypto) backups would be encouraged - I don't think this'd find its way onto dirt-cheap phones anytime soon, and card slots are getting common on new phones.
You must have gone to super crazy no way law school. Not even a police officer can search a child without cause. Schools like to make lots of rules but they are only that. They are not enforceable under the law. If you break the rules there are consequences, but only so far as the school holds authority over. They have very little real authority. This isn't the old days where a teacher could hit a kid with a ruler for misbehaving. Kids do not have a choice when it comes to attending school. In some states their parents can literally end up in jail if they do not attend.
Read my short stories - You won't regret it.
Nice to see my old shop teacher on New Scientist.. recognizable from the missing ring finger tip, of course. Keep up the good work Mr. Daly!
https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
We should treat those that are no longer children as adults. The idea that an unincarcirated citizen has "less rights" or "limited" rights of that than every other normal citizen is absurd. This combined with truancy laws makes government schools essentially a prison system.
Or even more logical and practical; can the government stop the parents of these kids and search their cell pohone without a warrant or probable cause? NO! And since currently we legally treat teenages as an extension of their parents and not as individuals, then the government has NO RIGHT to search the kids cell phone without either a warrant, probable cause, or the parents permission.
Libertas in infinitum
If the kids at this school are anything like the kids at my old high school the school offical are going to have to pry their cell phones out of their cold dead hands. There is no way these kids are giving up their cell phones.
When followed properly there was no reasonable chance of permanent damage.
Maybe not physical damage, but how about psychological?
I was myself a victim of this, although not in school (that had thankfully been outlawed), but by my parents. Being 29 years old, I can still wake up at night scared of my parents (especially my father), and I do not visit them very often.
However, I *did* learn something. I learned that adults use violence to solve problems, and only kids sit down to talk about it. Which is probably one of the reasons that I refuse to "grow up". And I learned that it's only ok to hit someone smaller than yourself.
The "essential" things you learn in school-- grammar, mathematics, foreign languages-- are the skills to require in order to become a productive member of society, and thus feed yourself and your family. But the arts-- music, art, film, literature, spirituality and philosophy-- are the things that make life worth living. You could argue that public schools should only teach us the things that we need to "get by", but I think society as a whole would suffer as a result.
There is always a dialectic between the arts and the sciences. Human understanding is not rigid, and I believe that the one informs the other, and vice-versa. It wasn't until I read Godel, Escher, Bach: The Eternal Golden Braid that I started to develop a passion for logic and mathematics. A work of art turned me on the beauty of a terse and rigorous proof.
I'm going to add a second question to this. OK, so the school has a "right" to search your locker, you can't prevent that because it's not your propertly. How about a locked box in the locker. Now, constitutionally that would be your property and you could tell them to keep their hands off it. again you're probably screwed as far as being booted from the school, but it does circumvent the property issues with the locker itself.
Cellphones can be used for a lot of stupid things, but they can also be used for emergencies. What happens if somebody has a medical emergency and you're not near a phone (in the field, etc), or you're being threatened with a weapon while walking home.
Cellphones can be used to used to dial 9-1-1 or other emergency numbers... not just foolish uses.
Please.
Anybody so weak that they actually suffer psychological damage from a little bit of pain has no place in society to begin with.
Pain is an excellent conditioning stimulus. It is irrational not to make use of it simply because an insignificant minority are too weak to handle it.
Unless you live in a state like the People's Republic of Maryland, where the attorney general has publicly voiced that opinion that children are the property of the state and parents are allowed to raise the children only at the pleasure of the state.
Most parents have no idea how far the "child protection" laws have eroded their rights as parents.
We live in a police state where we have traded freedom of speech for rap music, freedom of association for cheap abundant beer, and freedom of the press for internet pr0n.
The founding fathers would break down in tears at the mockery we have made of the liberties they fought and died for.
"Sic Semper Path of Least Resistance"
I bet, teachers and school officials just want student's address books so they can find a wider range of students to date. This isn't about protecting anyone... not like the bathroom cams some public schools (legally) install.
A student with a cell phone in class broke some rules. That's bad. I don't excuse it. Modifying the content of their phone data without their permission is against the law.
Two wrongs don't make a right. They never have, and they never will.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Last I knew, most schools didnt allow cell phones present. I can understand leaving one on vibrate or something when in class (say an ER from home/parent/etc), but yes, students are there to learn which means I dont want to see my kiddo abusing the phone (if self/other parent) would allow one at (whatever childs age is), I also agree on the note of protecting the privacy, however, there is no privacy (from parents) in this household, we will know our kids better than just assuming they are being good, I will gladly spy on the child just to make sure, afterall, more than likely, I would be the one paying the bill in the end. :)