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Black Box in Speeder's Car Helped Conviction
sessamoid writes "This article in Newhouse News tells the story of a man who was recently convicted of two counts of manslaughter and vehicular homicide each, partially on evidence obtained from the Electronic Data Recorder (EDR) in the car. EDR's are found in all cars with airbags to measure the performance and effectiveness of the airbags and the conditions in which they are used. In this case, the EDR revealed that the driver was not travelling at 60 mph, as he claimed, but actually peaked at 114 mph (in a residential neighborhood) just seconds before the collision. Could this be the forerunner of many such cases in the future, where our cars tell the unadulterated facts, rather than subjective personal accounts?"
Does this mean that I have to microwave my car now???
as seen on slashdot, almost exactly one month ago.
Can we get a special section for reposts?
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
"Could this be the forerunner of many such cases in the future, where our cars tell the unadulterated facts, rather than subjective personal accounts?"
Yeah, for about 3 weeks before an EDR modchip hits the market that reports whatever you want it to report.
-Rylfaeth
Use it for serious cases, fine. But don't ticket me!
Quid festinatio swallonis est aetherfuga inonusti?
Africus aut Europaeus?
The thought of data from EDR's being used against the vehicle owners scares me. EDR's record data from a number of the vehicle's sensors...but what about modifications done to the vehicle?
Take for example if someone changes tires on a big truck...going from the stock size up to 44" of rolling rubber. The speed reading recorded by the EDR will be grossly inaccurate in relation to the true speed, unless everything is recalibrated to reflect the modifications. How about engine modifications? If a stock turbocharger on a car is modified to run at 30-50% more boost, then the EDR will record that the car is operating out of normal paramaters.
As long as these factors are accounted for when the data from the EDR is being analyzed, then it's (somewhat) safe...but if just the numbers from the device are presented without their real-world correlation, that could cause some trouble IMHO.
Mike
I am generally against any infringements on our personal liberties, but in this case, over 100 mph in a residential neighborhood.
Let him fry.
I understand some of the privacy pundits bitching all around about how this is an "invasion of privacy." However, the 5 seconds leading up to a crash can provide important data for the manufacturers and accident investagators...particularly if the driver of the car is killed in the crash.
;)
It's interesting that it has the top speed recorded, which is kinda the death blow in this case. In most speed-related auto collisions, law enforcement goes by road conditions and skid marks to determine the speed of the vehicle at impact. Imagine the mess if that were a child running after a ball...
Personally, I'm glad this guy is going to prison. There is no excuse for excessive speed in a residential neighborhood...especially when that exceeded by a factor of four. That's what they built highways for!
// Agent Green (Ian / IU7 / KB1JQO)
// IEEE 802.3: All 10base Are Belong To Us
Where the fuck does the poster get his info from? Here's what the article said: "Starting with the 1999 model year, all GM vehicles had EDRs..." Somehow, that translates into "All cars with airbags"!
Cross a few wires oops, no more EDS. ;)
Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Try it. It kinda proposes an idea of a future where absolutely everything is recorded in a so-called "datacore" of undeletable memory. Also proposes a lot more stuff, but this could be the start...
Well, a number of manufacturers would love to be able to get these kinds of data for the purposes of designing better cars and some companies (namely Volvo) have had accident investigation teams for years that actually go out to the accident scene to investigate. However, like any data that is accumulated there is the potential for abuse particularly in these times of Total Information Awareness......Oh, excuse me Terrorist Information Awareness. Seriously though, forensic investigation depends upon data and if it is available, it will be examined.
Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
Geez, I hate to say it but I think this had his right to protection of privacy taken away when he drove through a neighborhood (even at 60mph!) and ran others over.
I'd consider these circumstances as extenuating enough that the data in the recorder *should* be used.
"I turn away with fright and horror from the lamentable evil of functions which do not have derivatives."
One of the other things they don't want you to know about the EDR. If the wheels leave the ground for any reason, like hitting a bump or going off a cliff, the wheels can spin freely. There is nothing in the sensors that tell if the tires are on the ground. If they are spinning off the ground, they will record a very high speed that has nothing to do with actual forward motion.
I wonder if there was any other evidence that showed that he was going 114mph? I doubt if they felt it was not needed. Computers never make mistakes, do they?
"Trademarks are the heraldry of the new feudalism."
If it can be used to convict you, could the EDR data be also used to exonorate you? I wonder how the courts will weight the data in both situatations, the same, or more inclined to admit the data in a State or Federal case against a person?...
Stupidity is doing 114mph in a neighborhood. As long as necessary information only is kept in the EDR then there aren't any problems. Look at this situation. You're driving the speed limit on a two lane road, which is 55mph. Its rainy, but the road is fairly straight. Another car loses control because they were going 100mph and hits you head on. You spend a few days in the hospital because you were lucky. The other driver dies. No one witnessed the wreck. You've just been blamed for his death. However, upon checking the opposing vehicle's EDR, your name is cleared, your insurance rates don't skyrocket, and you've got a new car and are back on track in a few weeks. And of course this was posted under a privacy heading. If you were speeding and wreck because of it, you deserve to be blamed for said wreck. The EDR is just a bit of hardware to help in an already-confusing process of determining driver fault. I could have been cleared of fault on my last wreck if my 98 Cavalier had been checked for its EDR. Opposing party said I stopped at an intersection in heavy rain and turned my lights off. EDR could have said I was moving at around 20mph through the intersection when the van with no lights t-boned me doing 80. Fun stuff.
Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
I'm sorry, but if you're pulling 114 in a neighborhood, maybe you deserve to get in trouble. I really don't see a "slippery slope" here. I mean, the police already have radar detectors, so it's not like up until now the courts have always gone by the driver's word or anything.
I am a big privacy advocate, but I hardly see this as any invasion of privacy. Recording your speed, that isn't obtainable in real time, can hardly violate your privacy. I mean...an odometer records your mileage and noone complains about that. GPS tracking is privacy violation, lowjack makes me uncomfortable, but this sounds like a usefull tool, just as long as it is legal to remove it.
"Much work is lost, for the lack of a little more." -Edward H. Harriman
Demolition Man?
No TiVo and no caffeine make me something something...
There's talk in the article of insurance companies requiring EDRs, and of course insurance is required by law most places. So the government even has a nice loophole to plant bugs in every car in the nation without actually legally requiring them. (isn't it nice to have big corporations to do your dirty work)
"The worst tyrannies were the ones where a governance required its own logic on every embedded node." - Vernor Vinge
After all, it's your God-given right to lie after running down a couple of innocent people when doing 100+ MPH in a residential neighbourhood. I'm sure this is exactly why the founding father's wanted to protect civil liberties.
EDRs are not found in all cars with airbags. Since all new cars have airbags, wouldn't this mean there's an EDR in every new car? I don't know where you got that idea. For now, GM is pretty much the only company installing them.
First of all he LIED by saying he was doing 60MPH. Next, he was doing 114 (there is not a place in the US that allows that and in residential it's 25MPH). I'm sure the accident investigators would have been able to notice that he was well above 60MPH but even so, he lied and the black box said otherwise. If it was my children or loved one that was killed, I'd feel glad that he was put behind bars for reckless driving. There's no excuse. Privacty implication or not, I don't think the black-box thing is being abused in this case.
Thanks,
Leabre
What speed would he have to go in a 30 mph zone in order for the tires to leave the road?
I think this might very possibly cause people to tamper with their airbags, not a good thing. The very thought that your own car could convict you of a crime is rubbish. Don't get me wrong, people like this should be put away, as he is / was obviously a maniac. I just think this immediately puts a certain George Orwell book into your head.
The damage done is a pretty good indicator of the speed involved in the accident. Hitting a car going 114mph is going to do a bit more damage than hitting them doing 60mph.
Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
Could this be the forerunner of many such cases in the future, where our cars tell the unadulterated facts, rather than subjective personal accounts?
How is this a bad thing? The innocent is proven innocent and the guilty is proven guilty.
Gee, reading that article is like listening to a GW Bush speech. Perhaps it's just my browser, but everything.....is.....broken.....up.....into....ea sily.....digestible.....pieces with few sentences or paragraphs that are conjoined conceptually or grammatically. I guess this is how one appeals to the common person (average reading level in the US is eighth grade), but I hope I don't see this sort of writing and reporting get any more popular.
Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
The thought that your own car could convict you of a crime is slightly uncomforting. I think this could lead to a lot of people tampering with this "System" (I will not pretend to know anything about it) and perhaps the airbag (if they're connected in one way or another) Don't get me wrong, people like this are obviously insane and should be put away, but I seriously question methods used. It just makes me think of a certain book that I more than likely needn't name (if thats a word)
My issue with this technology used in court isn't so much an issue of privacy, it's an issue of how accurate electronics are.
For example, my speedo can read really high speeds on ice but that doesn't mean i'm going anywhere.
There is no sanctuary. There is no sanctuary. SHUT UP! There is no shut up. There is no shut up.
While I don't disagree that this man was definitely speeding (forensics from the accident dictate that), My front tires often slip (and thus, spin) when going over speedbumps at higher speeds.
Also, adverse weather conditions, such as rain can cause less road traction and again, cause the wheels to essentially leave the road and spin freely.
Depending upon the slope and conditions of the road (potholes, speedbumps, large inclines followed by large declines), it's fairly easy to have your front tires leave the ground, at least for a brief moment.
But yea, this guy definitely got what was coming to him, EDR or not.
The bottom line is that this guy was a fuckhead. Period. He shouldn't have been going 114MPH in a residential zone.
Now, irregardless if the EDR was used or not, his speed at impact can be easily determined from the physical evidence. The EDR merely shows the level of intent by the driver. They can determine if he attempted to slow down, or hit them at WOT and continued to floor it.
They stated he was going 98MPH at impact. The fact of the matter is that if you take the mass of the struck car, the type of tire and it's coefficient of friction, and the mass of the car which struck it, you can determine speed. When the moving car strikes the one backing out of the driveway, it transfers energy into the slow one. How far the slow car is moved from it's original position and the COF of the tires will tell them how much energy transfer took place. You can determine the velocity of the striking car by dividing the energy by the mass of the vehicle.
Again, this guy got what he deserved, EDR or none. I don't like the concept of EDRs for this purpose; I have no intention of purchasing a car with one.
That's the way I see it.
"Computers never make mistakes, do they?"
Not nearly as often as humans.
"Study your math, kids. Key to the universe." -The Archangel Gabriel
Assuming that you're pulling some Dukes of Hazzard style bridge jumping, this might be a problem, but the acceleration of your tires when not on the ground will be substantially higher than that of your tires on the ground. Thus, it can easily be ascertained whether your car was in contact with the road, by actually analyzing the data.
They don't have robots figuring this stuff out, they have forensic experts.
I think this kind of device makes sense if it is standardized. Without standardization, it is difficult to assess how data from different devices compares.
It is also important to have an open debate about this. It may make sense to have black boxes for everybody, but we probably need to increase speed limits if we are going to have 100% enforcement because current speed limits assume some flexibility. And we would need to make sure everybody has those devices and that they are working (perhaps they could be tested along with the smog check), otherwise people could get an unfair advantage in court by disabling their devices.
I'm glad he's off the streets as well, but I'm appalled at the technology being used this way. As for the manufacturers and accident investigators with some sort of interest in this sort of data...well screw 'em. There's nothing in the constitution that says it's my job to make another guy's job easier, even if I'm dead. I hate to use the term slippery slope because we all throw it around all the time here on Slashdot, but I don't see how this is any different from the TIA initiatives. Sure they can be used for good uses, but that doesn't mean that acquiring data on citizens is a good thing. If I want to find out if my kids are running around the house I try to catch them in the act, I don't place electronics in their pants to tattle on them - even if it might prevent accidents or make it easier to muddle through sequences of events when something gets broken.
I'm sort-of sitting on the fence over this one, coz I believe that the EDS could potentially give invalid data under certain conditions e.g. tyres slipping and spinning freely, etc.
Hmm... How am I going to decide if this is fair/unfair? I know! Does the EDS run Linux?
Cheers
Stor
"Yeah well there's a lot of stuff that should be, but isn't"
Sometimes I'm behind the wheel when I would most likely fail a breathalyzer. However, I am much more careful and much better of a driver than many, if not most of the idiots swarming around me on the highways of Chicago.
If I should get into an accident, of no fault of my own, then I would gladly embrace the black box in my car. It would provide some desperately needed evidence that I was not at fault, regardless of the idiot's insurance company/lawyer trying to shift blame to me.
One of the worst scenarios that I am haunted by is getting into a serious accident, through no fault of my own, and being seriously f-ed because I was over the limit.
... using vehicular damage as evidence? I don't like it but I can not logicaly differntiate the two. Maybe some ele can.
I'm glad they caught this guy based on the black-box evidence.
It's important not to confuse protections agains self-incriminating testimony with protections against evidence that may implicate you.
The reason we have safeguards against compelled confessions is because they can often be false. Interrogation can greatly reduce the veracity of the obtained information. Protection against self-incrimation is actually protection against abusive interrogation, not a protection against aiding in your own conviction.
Obviously, a black box preseents no such interrogation difficulties. So if it helps convict someone, great. As long as the information is correct.
Privacy is not really an issue, either -- since a black-box is non-intrusive, until an actual accident or crime occurs.
Hubbah
This was one of the rare cases where the moderators got it right. Your post was probably modded "redundant" because there's no category for "ineffectual, irritating whining."
The linked article is completely different this time, and discusses a specific case instead of the general issue. And, come on, that was one article, a month ago. If you're going to complain about reposts, complain about the ones where they repost the same article within 24 hours. It's not like there's a shortage.
But I guess I should get used to people like you; this is slashdot, after all.
Stanziale also argued that Matos had modified his Trans Am, changing the size of the tires and even the engine's software to make it faster. That, he said, would have caused the EDR to make wrong calculations.
You know, if he did all this, there ain't a doubt in my mind that he was indeed doing 114mph in a residental zone. The big tires and the modifications to the engine's software just show that he had the complete intention of speeding.
Step back from the situation, what is perplexing is that people make cars, and they make them to go to speeds well over any speed limit and other people make rules to try and prevent people from going over those speeds. One would think that the solution is to not make cars go so fast?
It still is possible to break the speed limit though, like a car that is capable of 100km/h can still go over the limit in a 60km/h zone.
What if they made blackboxes to report your speed limit? It's like, here is a car capable of 200km/h, but if you go over 120km/h then you're going to have to pay a fine. It's almost like we know cars can go fast but we need to have a system in place to be able to create revenue by people going over those limits. I'm sure cars can be made to not go over certain speeds.
EDR seeprom âoeflight recordersâ in cars were installed because of early 1980s accusations by female drivers of audiâ(TM)s, that their Audiâ(TM)s suddenly lurched forwared into traffica nd carages. (Male drivers somehow were not affected by the mysterious haunted-audi accelerator pedal mystery). So EDRs were added not only for airbag, but for all drive-train issues involving litigation against us car mfrs.
:
You canâ(TM)t disable them and still have a valid warrantee and the use feds want to call it a SAFETY violation to destroy them (car accident companies and paramedics tap them for their own purposes AGAINST you.
But worse things are in cars
TOP SECRET FACT:Most modern cars have tracking transponders!
Spy transmission chips embedded in tires that can be read REMOTELY while driving.
A secret initiative exists to track all funnel-points on interstates and US borders for car tire ID transponders (RFid chips embedded in the tire).
Yup. My brother works on them.
Your tires have a passive coil with 64 to 128 bit serial number emitter in them! (AIAG B-11 ADC v3.0) . A particular frequency energizes it enough so that a receiver can read its little ROM. A ROM which in essence is your GUID for your TIRE. Multiple tires do not confuse the readers. Its almost identical to all âoeFastPassâ âoeSpeedPassâ technologies you see on gasoline keychain dongles and commuter windshield sticker-chips. The US gov has secretly started using these chips to track people.
Its kind of like FBI âoeTaggantsâ in fertilizer and âoeTaggantsâ in Gasoline and Bullets, and Blackpowder. But these car tire transponder Ids are meant to actively track and trace movement of your car.
I am not making this up. Melt down a high end Firestone, or Bridgestone tire and go through the bits near the rim (sometimes at base of tread) and you will locate the transmitter (similar to âgrain of riceâ(TM) pet ids and Mobile SpeedPass, but not as high tech as the tollbooth based units). Sokymat LOGI 160, and Sokymat LOGI 120 transponder buttons are just SOME of the transponders found in modern high end car tires. The AIAG B-11 Tire tracking standard is now implemented for all 3rd party transponder manufactures [covered below].
It is for QA and to prevent fraud and âoecar theftâ, but the US Customs service uses it in Canada to detect people who swap license plates on cars when doing a transport of contraband on a mule vehicle that normally has not logged enough hours across the border. The customs service and FBI do not yet talk about this, and are starting using it soon.
Photos of chips before molded into tires:
http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:TAQIKjBI01g C: www.sokymat.com/sp/applications/tireid.html
(slashdot ruins links, so you will have to remove the ASCII space it insertess usually into the url above to get to the shocking info and photos on the enbedded LOGI 160 chips that the us gov scans when you cross mexican and canadian borders.)
You never heard of it either because nobody moderates on slashdot anymore and this is probably +0 still. It has also never appeared in print before and is very secret.
Californias Fastpass is being upgraded to scan ALL responding car tires in future years upcoming. I-75 may get them next in rural funnel points in Ohio.
http://www.tadiran-telematics.com/products6.html
but the fact is... YOU PROBABLY ALREADY HAVE A RADIO TRANSPONDER not counting your digital cell phone which is routinely silently pulsed in CA bay area each rush hour morning unless turned off (consult Wired Magazine Expose article). Those data point pulses are used by NSA on occasions.
The us FBI with NRO/NSA blessings, has requested us gov make this tire scanning information as secret as the information regarding all us inkjet printers sold in usa in the last 3 years using "yellow" GUID bar
I doubt it. It would be more or less impossible to destroy only that circuit without also taking out the module that is going to deploy the airbags too. It's easier to just not buy a GM vehicle. They havn't made anything but junk since the late sixties anyway. GM is like the Microsoft of the Automotive world.
Yup... next time it snows, go for a drive while the roads are still slushy, and give your car some gas (if you don't have any traction control system turned on), and watch as your revs + speedometer goes up, and your car doesn't move.
I also agree with you: the guy got what he deserved.
SuPz.orG
So his car was running linux... with Blackbox WM? But I use Blackbox on my linux box, and it never crashes. I smell something fishy here
Actually, Montana does not have a speed limit... they just say you should just a safe and resonable speed. Well, some idiots in the world consider 114MPH safe and resonable. ;-)
Were that to happen I'm sure there'd be ample supporting evidence. Like a great big rock face.
Seriously though, surely these devices record datapoints with enough resolution to identify momentary tire slippage.
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
I remember seeing something about this a while back here on /. I'll find that link here somewhere.... Ahhh yes, here it is... Oops... Thats not it... Thats for the stray cats... Ummm lets see here... Where did I put it... Wait, look over here at this. I knew id find it...
You know, there's no legitimate reason for that claim, and I have yet to hear a 'privacy pundit' explain WHY it's an invasion of privacy. I'm very pro-personal-privacy, and I didn't like the idea when I heard about it- but I've long since realized that there really wasn't any basis for those feelings- that it was just a knee-jerk reaction.
I realized that the data would only help me if I was not at fault, since it would be more accurate than 'accident' reconstruction. It could help me even if I was at fault. In either case, maybe a witness claims I was doing "at least 60", and the black box shows them to be dead wrong(I won't say lie- people are very bad at speed estimation as a rule, and that's under excellent circumstances). The box shows I was doing 40. A 60-in-a-35 now turns into a 40-in-a-35; still speeding, but a whole other picture.
Suddenly the "speed freak murderer who couldn't avoid that kid in the road because of his speed" turns into "that driver couldn't avoid that kid who ran out into the road without looking."
However, the 5 seconds leading up to a crash can provide important data for the manufacturers and accident investagators...particularly if the driver of the car is killed in the crash.
...or if the driver simply doesn't remember, as often happens to people involved in collisions. Someone I know was rear-ended by an SUV-driving-moron doing about 80. One second, the other driver was doing 25 in the right lane(slowed traffic), minding his own business. The next thing he remembered was lying in the grass with an EMT leaning over him saying, "hey, you okay buddy?" He remembers nothing about getting rear-ended by the SUV driver.
Please help metamoderate.
The category for that is called "Overrated"; and yes, you should get used to "people like me"; if only there were more of us who still read, posted, and moderated on /. I just browse the place occasionally now, and the best advice I can give you is not to take it too seriously. Take a break. Go outside. Make a friend. Or at least find some other websites... :)
Who says black boxes can't be tampered with?
This is what I hate about searching for the "truth" - it's subvertible to the point where if you think about all the possible ways you could be decieved, you'll go nuts. It's not conspiratorial to say someone could set you up; the more technology we have, the more likely I think it will become.
And some wonder why people like being ignorant...
Matt Fahrenbacher
James Tiberius Kirk: "Spock, the women on your planet are logical. No other planet in the galaxy can make that claim."
Does anybody with mod points actually check the URLs in a comment before modding the person up? First off, its EDR, not EDS... and secondly, the link leads to a FAQ on lead batteries.
When I was 19, I came across some money, and went out and bought some exteremely fast cars. One of them (not the fastest, but my favorite) was a 1999 Mustang Cobra convertible. Just over 150MPH top speed.
Speeding became my life. I'd fly along the freeways by day, but at night it was a fucking free for all. Top speed down highway 85, racing through the santa cruz mountains, tearing up hwy 101, you name it.
There were a dozen times I pushed it to the edge and came out okay, but there was one that changed my speeding career forever. I was coming home from a ski trip, just entering the Si valley and getting pissed as hell about all the traffic. I was going about 130MPH up hwy 280, and all of a sudden the fast lane came to a stop. I swerved to the right just as the Lawrence expwy exit was coming up, and holy shit there were 50 cars at a standstill in the slow lane. I stood on the ABS - the car started to fishtail and I went flying down the emergency lane kicking up dust with 4" on the right between me and the guard rail. Finally I came to a stop just before the exit, and figured the quickest way out of there was to get my ass back on the freeway and head home, do I did. 100 horns honking.
I will never forget that. 10ms later on the brakes, and I'd have killed myself and at least the occupants of a couple other cars. I quit speeding right after that and sold the 'stang.
Not sure what the moral of this story is - speeding will kill you, everyone knows that. But if you're really into speed, I don't think anything but a near death (or death) experience will change your ways.
"Computers never make mistakes, do they?"
Not nearly as often as humans.
But a human will never make the same mistake 50,000 times in a row in under 2.5 seconds wiping out an entire database.
To err is human, but to really foul things up you need a computer
-
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
GM = microsoft
... look away!
ford = SCO
if you haven't looked at ford lately
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." --Albert Einstein
Lawyers aren't stupid. If your car was going 40kph and suddenly peaked at 100kph, anyone could see that something must have happened to cause that spike. If you had a halfway decent lawyer, he would argue that your car couldn't have accelerated that quickly.
Eventually, we will see a better system for data aquisition. Imagine being able to get statistics on weight shifts to specific wheels during acceleration or breaking. Imagine being able to see the effect on gas mileage from all those Mountian Dew (God's own caffene source!) cans in your floorboard.
As a geek, I love charts and graphs and numbers. I'd love to be able to do "snmpwalk" on my car and get detailed statistics from my trips. Yes, it could be used agianst me, it could also be used to show that I am a good driver. If a kid runs in front of you and you hit him, the proper numbers could show that there was no way you were violating the law and you couldn't stop in time.
Numbers could be used both ways. Do you really want to hide numbers that could be used to prove your innocence? Do you want to hide numbers that could prove my guilt?
What makes you think that what you do on a public road should be private?
I'd rather you do it wrong, than for me to have to do it at all.
All of what you say is probably true, but the data gleaned from the EDR in any case wouldn't exist in a vacuum. If there are other factors in the mix, that's why you have a lawyer to point those things out.
And
Volkswagon = Apple?
Mercedes = FreeBSD?
BMW = Linux?
Information is stored at 1 second intervals, and the last five seconds before airbag deployment or near-deployment are saved in non-volatile memory. The information saved typically includes:
There's also post-crash data, which is useful for deciding whether airbag deployment should have occured. (That's actually why the data is recorded and why the NTSB analyzes it for collisions where airbag deployment was unnecessary.)
When you see this data graphed over time, it tells you quite a bit about the accident. There's more than speed information. Seeing throttle and brake inputs for five seconds before the collision gives a good indication of what the driver was doing. In this case, press reports say "Court records show the recorder in Matos' 2002 Pontiac Trans Am measured his speed at 114 mph five seconds before the crash in Pembroke Pines. The device detected he was pressing the gas pedal at 99 percent of its maximum capacity. A second before the crash, he was still doing 103 mph." Any questions?
But this is primitive compared to the Eaton VORAD radar system on some heavy trucks. That collects enough information to show what the other vehicles were doing.
A couple views (Score:5, Interesting)
by CrudPuppy (33870) on Saturday May 17, @03:57AM (#5979217)
I guess I am torn on this issue.
On one hand, if black box data is used against you, you could claim discrimination since not all cars have the boxes and therefore you are being punished to a greater extent as a direct result of the car you chose to purchase.
On the other hand, I think it would be a good idea (Big Brother paranoia aside) for the industry to create a standard for what kind of dasta is collected and mandate the use of these devices on all new cars. Unbiased witnesses in courtrooms is badly needed these days due to blatant disregard for truth and justice.
Now how do you stop Big Brother from tapping this info? You KNOW they're gonna wanna give this thing an IP address that maps to your Social Security Number and is able to broadcast on wireless networks...
--
A year spent in artificial intelligence is enough to make one believe in God.
riding round the world on an old motorcycle
This information has been available for years (among other "hidden" information). The public is only now becoming more aware of it. Pretty much if your car has airbags (and I personally wouldn't purchase a car w/o them, even though it is a "supplemental" restraint) you can count on this information being available, though hard to retrieve. The more recent the model year, the more relevant information stored.
There is a propietary code in a certain manufacture's SRS that basically says "crash event occured." Certainly there must be useful information stored in the module once that code is set. I can even think of one event where an SRS module was removed and sent back to the manufacture for a lawsuit.
Is it a intrusion on privacy? Hard to say. Driving is a privilidge, not a right. At the same time, manufactures use this information to design better (translated "safer") cars. Used for law enforcement purposes? I won't even go into what is already available in a vehicle's PCM but hidden to the average user. Shoot, I would presume there is stuff that is hidden to even me, the technician who makes those little lights on the dash prove out. Does this make me nervous? Sure, but what shall I do about it? As a part-time admin, I can understand them leaving backdoors and "honeypots" in the vehicle to gather information that would be useful, if not incriminating. Where shall the line be drawn? Call/write your Congressman to make a law that would prevent this type of information from being used in a court of law if you are that worried.
But the law's punishments are purposed for those who break them. He was going 60MPH in a residential neighborhood. The SRS module said 114MPH. I agree with an earilier post - it was still too fast anyway.
Don't like it that your car can be used against you - don't drive or do anything stupid. Real easy.
But what do I know? I only work as a technician for a dealership.
Where does that leave Ferarri, Porsche, Rolls Royce, Lexus, Saturn, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Honda, ... ?
A solution to the problem with music today
Pull your head out of your ass, moron, and read the article. The crash investigators estimated the vehicle to be travelling at 98 mph.
Well, the speedometer calibration problem is easily solved by GPS.
Simple problem, simple solution.
The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
Would have been funnier if you didn't FAIL. =/
For all of you who cringe at the thought of being monitored while driving, consider this: The moment you choose to edge your vehicle beyond the posted speed limit (i.e. excessive speed), you have forfeited your rights to privacy. What most people forget is that with great freedom comes great responsibility. Unfortunately, a great many people will immediately raise their voices the second they perceive their 'rights' to privacy being violated, but think nothing of buying the biggest SUV on the lot with a steel reinforced front end (in other words, a rolling, suburbanized, death dealing street legal tank). It's called intelligent decision making here, folks. If you don't want to get caught speeding, don't speed. I don't think it says anywhere in the Constitution that you can choose to place other people's lives in jeopardy and still have rights. Your rights end where others begin, plain and simple.
End of Line.
Well, I second the sentiment that it should not be illegal to remove them; my car, I can modify it if I want, right? I should not be legally obligated to allow my vehicle to record potentially incriminating info about me; this, I think, would violate (in intent, at least) my constitutional protections against self-incrimination.
;)
However, if I do allow my car to do so, why should it be any different from any other search? I think a warrant should be necessary, just as it would be if they wanted to search my laptop (at least it is in theory
This is a good post. My roommate is a speeder/racer and has been in at least 15 accidents that he has told me about (he's 21). On the other hand, I am a decent driver (one that generally rides 5 over the speed limit and attempts to stay with the flow of traffic) and have never been in an accident when I was the driver. I am also fairly perceptive and actually slow my vehicle when I sense a bad driving which could lead to an accident. For some reason most of the people that I ride with don't seem to notice possible accidents. It kind of freaks me out. Anyway, I don't understand why so many out there seem to think that they have to race to get from point A to point B all the time. Why not drive safer so you can travel tomorrow?
".... Could this be the forerunner of many such cases in the future, where our cars tell the unadulterated facts, rather than subjective personal accounts?"
I think you mean 4Runner. Nevertheless, another SUV has murdered a citizen of our fine nation!
Down with the yuppy SUV movement!!!!
Sigs are for hypocrits
Price willian accused of seppedingm .driving.ap/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/06/15/willia
The war with islam is a war on the beast
The war on terror is a war for peace
Perhaps not, but they'll instruct the computer to do exactly that ;)
I am all in favor of cop cameras, so as long as cop cars have these tattle tales also, it's wonderful. How many times have you followed cops around who don't come to full stops, who speed without lights or siren, who generally get away with bad driving even when just cruising? Remember about two edged swords.
Infuriate left and right
I've been thinking about this lately. If there was a mechanism, that'd allow us to record the drivers info, like some kind of smart card a medium simillar to that.And even it's not easy, let's assume, we've made it mandatory for all cars, like safety belts. The car could write and read info to this medium about the driver, and any mistake the driver does can be recorded. (maybe by a central mechanism using gps, or by the cops, whatever...). When you're out of your traffic credits, car's would refuse you as a driver. Like everything this can be cheated of course: "hey pal, would you stick your traffic credit card to my card ? i've just run out of mine, bla bla".The cops can check if the driver has sticked his own card, just like checking his licence..
Why i'd want something like this ? Couse there are thousands of bastards around who forget they are risking not only their lives, but also many others by being a jerk in the drivers seat. You can take away the drivers licence, but you can't stop the bastard. He may use a car anyway. This way, he'll have a hard time trying to find a car he can use.I know there are flaws in the idea, but if someone could make it work, i think it would save lives.
Have a look at this.
Unmentioned there is that Rolls Royce is now owned by BMW, so that fits into the previous poster's comparison. Ferrari doesn't really fit, though.
It wasn't a very good analogy to begin with.
In the USA, there's a little matter of the constitution requiring reasonable cause for search and seizure. I doubt pulling someone over just to get a speed reading from the last 15 minutes would pass muster. And if the cop said he had just tailed you and that was his probable cause ... so, dump his readings too, see if his speed came even close to matching yours ... a few little lies like that would wreck their little scheme.
Infuriate left and right
Why was this guy even charged? Clearly the girl who was backing out without looking is at fault here. Even if the guy was traveling at 25 MPH she would of backed out into him. Speed was not a factor here, it was the driver in the other car.
Typical ./ crowd failing to read the article:
This is especially important section:
"Defense lawyer Robert Stanziale said Matos was going about 60 mph. Assistant State Prosecutor Michael Horowitz said that his accident investigator calculated Matos was traveling about 98 mph. The electronic data recorder in Matos' car showed his peak speed was 114 mph in the seconds before the crash."
The driver says a much slower speed, an accident investigator says 98 MPH, the EDR says it peaked at 114, whichever way you look at it this guy was going to jail, the EDR most likely provided the icing on the cake. Two young girls died innocently in this, don't forget that.
As for privacy...Not really, there is plenty more things that could cause privacy to be invaded. Oh and for those who were worried about mis-readings; This is up to the defense lawyer to question, if in an accident the car became airborne for 5 seconds the lawyer can ask what affect this would have on the EDR, or if the car had a different set of wheels, this is also something the lawyer could have bought up. But, in the case mentioned who was going to go to jail, defense saying 60 MPH is still over the limit in a 30 mile an hour zone. One less idiot on teh road, just a shame two young girls had to die from this idiot.
To go from 60mph (claimed) to 144mph (recorded) the engine revs would need to almost double while the wheels were spinning.
You'd need to have the throttle open and have the wheels off the ground for a while for that to happen, seems unlikely.
Tom
I have discovered a wonderful
Easy fixed, if I marry my car it can no longer testify against me in court, right?
Hit the brakes, leave skid marks ... is that self incrimination?
... is the type and amount of damage self incrimination?
... is that self incrimination?
... is that self incrimination?
Smash up the car pretty badly
Fire a gun, ballistics match up
Leave blood at a scene
Fingerprints? Hair samples? Semen? Picture on a bank security camera?
Infuriate left and right
"Could this be the forerunner of many such cases in the future, where our cars tell the unadulterated facts, rather than subjective personal accounts?"
No, in the future the black boxes will provide subjective personal accounts.
Does anybody with mod points actually check the URLs in a comment before modding the person up? First off, its EDR, not EDS... and secondly, the link leads to a FAQ on lead batteries.
Really people, listen up!
One of the big issues I have with any speed measuring equipment is that very few of them actually *measure* speed. They *infer* in some way.
Police Radar, for example, relies on taking calibrated Doppler Shift readings - the speed of the target vehicle increases the carrier frequency of the radar as it closes on it, reduces it as it heads away. There is also a "vector offset" to be taken into account if the target vehicle is not heading directly towards or away from the radar, with accuracy decreasing markedly as the offset increases. Of course, they admit that accuracy of the device relies on correct calibration of their internal crystal references (which can also drift with internal temperature changes), but they rarely admit that it's also affected to a degree by atmospheric temperature, pressure and humidity levels.
Why the convoluted Police Radar diversion? EDR's don't measure vehicle speed either - they *infer* it from an RPM measurement, either from a Hall Effect sensor at the gearbox output shaft or, for "more expensive" models, from sensors mounted on individual wheels.
For gearbox mounted sensors, you can break the reading either by changing your differential ratios or by changing the diameter of your tyres.
Changing the track width of your tyres has no effect on this measurement, but changing the diameter of your tyres will. Using the RPM measurement and the old formula for the circumference of a circle, speed is inferred from the diameter of your tires and how fast they are rotating. Larger diameter will cause your vehicle to travel faster for the same RPM. Smaller diameter will cause your vehicle to travel slower.
Of course, if your tyres have melted in a blazing fire following the accident how do investigators know what diameter tyres you were using? Do they check differential ratios as well?
And they want to use this "information" for legal proceedings? Sorry, too many unknowns for my liking.
There was a sign on a road near London, UK which said "14% of road accidents in this county were caused by speeding" - as a n attempt to justify the massive spread of GATSO speed cameras in the area. However, if 14% were caused by speeding, 86% were caused by other things such as the driver not paying due attention (yet still keeping to the speed limit) or driving with a car that's in an unsafe condition (defective brakes, steering, suspension, tyres etc).
This particular case is somewhat extreme - given that the limit was 25mph, and he says he was doing 60, he should go to prison anyway - he *says* he was doing more than twice the limit! But what I'd like to know is, why the cops spend so much time and effort catching people who are speeding when most crashes are caused not by excessive speed but by defective cars and inattentive or intoxicated drivers? The answer is basically money - the cops make a lot of money from speed tickets, it's easy to prove in court with the right equipment, and you don't even have to stop the speeding car - just send the ticket to the registered address for the car's owner.
Agreed Not everything is recorded including software hardware glitches /begin true story /end true story
While driving in my own residential street my car decided to rev >7000 rpm lift foot off the accelerator and brake - no effect - drop into neutral the electronically controlled automatic gearbox refuses and the brakes are working against the engine so i turn the engine off. Come to a stop call mechanic and he finds nothing turn the car back on and everything is normal except the burning smell from the transmission - 3 weeks later the same thing only while in neutral and stopped, this time it stops on its own after 15 seconds or so and the cause was the secondary fuel pump
The point here is the only sensor on the pump said it was working not that it had a glitch and when it stopped working the computers still said it was working so can you trust all the equipment in your car ??
Your'e all thinking it, I just said it for you
That might be a way to tell.
There are no cliffs mentioned in the story so we can ignore that scenario.
Actually if the EDR is recording data from sensors in seatbelts and airbags the inertial data from those sensors would give some idea of the things you mention.
Change some of the facts...
Defendant says he was going 30 MPH
Accident investigator says 29 MPH
EDR says 35 MPH
What would the judge decided then?
Already admitted to 60 MPH is already too fast, to me that seems he was admitting guilt.
Let's examine the facts:
A teenage girl pulled out into traffic and was hit
If the speeding car had been going 30 mph, they most likely would have still collided. Would it have killed both occupants? Perhaps severly injured or killed one of them if they were unlucky. Either way, the girl was AT FAULT for pulling into moving traffic.
The article headline could very well be "Black Box In Red-Light Jumper's Car Proves She Pulled Out Into Traffic". Would have been a different spin, no?
114 mph in a residentual zone
This guy's an asshat. What the hell was he thinking? The only time he should be going that fast is on a track, after he's signed the right paperwork. He's AT FAULT. I'm also impressed his car saved his life in a 100+mph head-on collision.
Conclusion:
All things being equal, the only thing the black box proves is that the speeder should share the blame 50%, instead of the girl being 100% at fault.
As such, I'm in two minds about his punishment. It obviously wasn't premeditated murder, but the sentence of 22 to 30 years seems pointless punishment to ruin his life since he wasn't 100% at fault. He'd be in his 50's before he's out. If he was a sound, moral character, I'd be tempted to give him 5 years and never allow him to drive a motor vehicle again - ever. But he lied about his speed, which could mean he's a bit of a weasel. Hmm.. difficult problem.
I'm fine with having a black box in my GM car. I already try not to speed because I don't want my insurance premiums to go up and I'm happy to have a box monitoring me if it helps me to not take risks. What is the problem with that? It's a smart move by GM.
Strangely, I was just chatting about this with my father (Happy Father's Day to all) and a couple of points came up that I thought were interesting.
The first was:
Blackboxes can be mandated on U.S. airplanes (which are privately owned) because the U.S. government can regulate interstate commerce and the airspace above the U.S. belongs to the citizens of the U.S. and are administrated by the government on our behalf.
Similarly, the interstate highway system is basically under the jurisdiction of the federal government and regulated by them (cars must meet federal safety guidelines, etc.) so it seems fairly straightforward to me that requiring black boxes in cars is well within the purvue of what we have allowed the government to handle in the past , especially since more people die in car accidents in the U.S. each year than in airplace crashes.
There is also precident for the concept that you can't just do anything to your own property (e.g. building permits, zoning regulations, child abuse laws..sorta). So this doesn't bother me too much as long as we are vigilent about misuse.
Which leads to the second point we discussed: the big problem is with the insurance companies. Their interest as a business is not really to protect you from harm, but to avoid paying claims since this costs them money. Often times this manifests itself in positive ways (credits for joining a health club, driver safety programs), but can also be rife for abuse. Everyone I know seems to have a story about recalcitrant insurance companies dragging their feet on legitimate claims. Personal injury lawyers prey on those fears all the time.
I could easily see a world where insurance companies look for any scrap of evidence they can to avoid paying your claim... these black boxes can supply it in spades: you were going 5 mph over the limit, zagged left instead of right, etc... until basically there would come a point where it would be difficult or impossible to get the insurance company to perform the service that you pay them for: to help you absorb some of the cost of a tragedy, self-inflicted or otherwise, in your life.
I wonder how many people would start dropping their car insurance because it really provides them with no value since there could always be some momentary fault found with their driving that the insurance company could point to. Perhaps we need to think about how absolutely some of this data should be interpreted; maybe the splitting of blame between parties in an accident handles this already. Should no-fault insurance become mandatory? Or should the adoption of this technology herald the beginning of individualized mass transit (that makes my head hurt typing it, I mean basically smart highways)?
======
In X-Windows the client serves YOU!
I think that their use in cars for accident investigation might have some benefits but even flight recorders don't help 100% of the time and they have a lot more stuff recorded and teams of engineers going over the data.
If all you get from the car recorders is speed then you still rely on the two drivers about when the light turned red and who wasn't looking at the road.
As for privacy and self incrimination, if ask truck drivers to log their time behind the wheel so we don't have as many cranked up hallucinating maniacs behind the wheel of 50 ton trucks bearing down on us then using car data to see what happened in an accident is OK by me.
Whats next, No you can't look at the accident scene, those are my private skid marks which may tend to incrimate me"
Wow, that explains it. Our DBA isn't human.
I mean maybe the dude had a Ford Explorer with Bridgestone tires....and maybe the guy he hit was wearing a neoteen linux hippie, sporting a black Linkin Park t-shirt(don't they all?).
If you think
What a joke. This gets modded a Troll??
Seriously people, if you think that everyone should have the right to do as they please on the road, it won't be long before Mad Max becomes the norm. When you drive, you are sharing the road with everyone else driving, not to mention pedestrians. There are SO many studies indicating the increase in safety that can be achieved in driving more slowly and indeed where I live, the laws have been changed to a limit of 50 kph (not miles, kilometres) in residential areas. I used to think screw that, but now as I mature I realise that the world really isn't there to please me and that if I drive at the limit, I'll get there maybe 2 or 3 minutes later than if I sped.
I get sick and tired of these people who say "I am a good driver, I speed, but I know what I'm doing." Fine, but then when you come across someone who doesn't know what they're doing, you are going to fast to avoid a collision. Just slow the fuck down. Where the hell do you need to be that you need to speed? Going to work? Fuck, who wants to be at work on time? Gah, I get so frustrated.
Okay, people have been concerned about invasions of privacy, police/lawmakers making the boxes WiFi etc. Alas this is probably the way of things to come. Since it is coming, lets direct it in the way we want.
Right now we have to live with the lowest common denominator of driving skills (of which the star of the article was one). This means an SUV driving soccer mom with 5 brats is held to the same standards as a dedicated* rider on a GXR1000 motorcycle. Vehicle differences aside (braking, handling etc...) the people behind the wheel are completely different as well.
Since realtime reporting of all vehicle activity stresses the current regulations to the point of ridiculousness*2, start keying it into drivers as well.
For example I really wish there was some way to do gradiated speed limits. Some sort of transponder (similar to the tolls) or a broadcasting black box that lets the police know you are qualified to go that speed (so one doesn't get stopped without cause/waste police time etc...).
Add in a fee for qualification testing and usage to make up for lost revenue in tickets (are they really about anything else?). I'm sure people would jump at the chance despite any costs the state imposes.
Yes there are plenty of details to work out in the system, but hey, it's a slashdot post.
*This does not include the teenager riding around at 90+ in sandals, shorts, sunglasses and a helmet if the law requires it.
*2 If you honestly believe that you have never broken a vehicular law, you've probably just not read the laws close enough.
* We dance where angels fear to tread *
General Motors: 1994
Buick Commercial LF side under dash
Buick Roadmaster LF side under dash
Cadillac Commercial LF side under dash
Cadillac Fleetwood
Chevrolet Caprice LF side under dash
Chevrolet Commercial LF side under dash
Pontiac Grand Prix Under RF seat
General Motors: 1995
Make Model Module Location
Buick Commercial LF side under dash
Buick Le Sabre Under RF seat
Buick Park Avenue Under RF seat
Buick Regal Under RF seat
Buick Roadmaster LF side under dash
Cadillac Commercial LF side under dash
Cadillac Concours Under LF seat
Cadillac Deville Under LF seat
Cadillac Eldorado Under LF seat
Cadillac Fleetwood LF side under dash
Cadillac Seville Under LF seat
Chevrolet Caprice LF side under dash
Chevrolet Impala LF side under dash
Chevrolet Lumina Under RF seat
Chevrolet Metro Under center console
Chevrolet Monte Carlo Under RF seat
Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Under RF seat
Oldsmobile Eighty Eight Under RF seat
Oldsmobile Ninety Eight Under RF seat
Pontiac Bonneville Under RF seat
Pontiac Grand Prix Under RF seat
Pontiac Firefly Under center console
Saturn All Models
General Motors: 1996
Make Model Module Location
Buick Commercial LF side under dash
Buick Le Sabre Under RF seat
Buick Park Avenue Under RF seat
Buick Regal Under RF seat
Buick Riviera Under RF seat
Buick Roadmaster LF side under dash
Buick Skylark Under RF seat
Cadillac Commercial LF side under dash
Cadillac Concours Under LF seat
Cadillac Deville Under LF seat
Cadillac Eldorado Under LF seat
Cadillac Fleetwood LF side under dash
Cadillac Seville Under LF seat
Chevrolet Astro Under LF seat
Chevrolet Camaro Under center console
Chevrolet Caprice LF side under dash
Chevrolet Cavalier Under RF seat
Chevrolet Express Under LF seat
Chevrolet Impala LF side under dash
Chevrolet Lumina Under RF seat
Chevrolet Metro
Chevrolet Monte Carlo Under RF seat
Geo Tracker
GMC Safari Under LF seat
GMC Savana Under LF seat
Oldsmobile Achieva Under RF seat
Oldsmobile Aurora Under RF seat
Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Under RF seat
Oldsmobile Eighty Eight Under RF seat
Oldsmobile Ninety Eight Under RF seat
Pontiac Bonneville Under RF seat
Pontiac Firebird Under center console
Pontiac Firefly
Pontiac Grand AM Under RF seat
Pontiac Grand Prix Under RF seat
Pontiac Sunfire Under RF seat
Saturn All models Under center console
General Motors: 1997
Make Model Module Location
Buick Century Under RF seat
Buick LeSabre Under RF seat
Buick Park Avenue Under RF seat
Buick Regal Under RF seat
Buick Riviera Under RF seat
Buick Skylark Under RF seat
Cadillac Commercial Under LF seat
Cadillac Concours Under LF seat
Cadillac Deville Under LF seat
Cadillac Eldorado Under LF seat
Cadillac Seville Under LF seat
Chevrolet Astro Under LF seat
Chevrolet Camaro Under center console
Chevrolet Cavalier Under RF seat
Chevrolet Corvette Behind accessory trim plate,
under heater and AC control
Chevrolet Express Under LF seat
Chevrolet Lumina Under RF seat
Chevrolet Malibu Under RF seat
Chevrolet Metro
Chevrolet Monte Carlo Under RF seat
Chevrolet Silverado Under LF seat
Chevrolet Suburban Under LF seat
Chevrolet Tahoe Under LF seat
Chevrolet Venture
Geo Tracker
GM1 EV1 RF side of battery pack tunn
GMC Safari Under LF seat
GMC Savana Under LF seat
GMC Sierra Under LF seat
GMC Suburban Under LF seat
GMC Yukon Under LF seat
Oldsmobile Achieva Under RF seat
Oldsmobile Aurora Under RF seat
Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Under RF seat
Oldsmobile Eighty Eight Under RF seat
Oldsmobile Regency Under RF seat
Oldsmobile Silhouette Under RF seat
Pontia
I don't disagree with your point, except the recorded was 114mph, and I can tell you from experience, if your drive wheels leave the group for much more than a split second with any amount pressure on the accelerator, your revs will very quickly approach redline. (Blasted addicting to driving small cars offroad at high speeds. Stupid rallying... *grumbles ;))
But that's definitely not happened in this case. A momentary tire slip isn't going to leave other forensic evidence indicating a 98mph impact.
Since they can so reliably (?) deduce your speed from your skidmarks, what happens if you completely fail to brake?
No skidmarks, no speed?
At best, the skidmarks might tell your speed when you locked the brakes. How does ABS affect this?
I'm not defending the defendent in the least, but the skidmark measure sounds fishy to me.
.sigs are for post^Hers.
Considering some of the people I know, I am not sure sure about that.
Making people drive cars safely has little detriment, and a tremendous benefit -- a huge number of people are killed in auto accidents each year. I'm all for government keeping out of private lives unless there's a darn good reason, but auto safety qualifies.
May we never see th
will yield pretty much the same result. It just costs more. I have an acquaintence who reconstructs accidents on computer using a suite of data sources including road roughness and tire traction. Combined with measurements of how much a vehicle's body and frame resists deformation, how much objects struck were displaced and similar data he can produce very telling results. He might be able to identifiy the speed as 114 miles per hour, bu he could in all likelihood place this fellow's speed as between 110 and 120 miles per hour based on physical data. EDR is simply quicker.
"How could the EDR data make it into court at all? I would have hoped the guy's lawyer would have jumped on the 5th Amendmend problems with this from the very beginning."
This makes no sense at all. By this token... Imagine you shot someone. The police suspected you of the shooting; then took in your gun in for ballistics analysis of the firing pin and barrel markings, etc. Should you be able to ban the ballistics evidence from being presented up in court, since it could be incriminating?
I think the 5th amendment is protection against your own confession being used against you - you can't use it to supress evidence. Just because you own the gun (or you own the EDR that was part of the car that you killed someone with) doesn't give you the right to subvert justice. The right of the law to consider evidence to make a fair judgement, especially in a criminal case, ****overrides**** other rights, including property right, that you may have.
It is great - no more stupid stories - all those ... one of them ...
...
killers should do the time. I know at least
3 persons killed by such drivers
was 10 years old kid
Of course proper precautions should be taken
so one is not framed
Possibly. My GPS periodically loses signals due to trees, buildings and such. When the signal comes back on, it goes from the last point measured to the current point.
Instantly.
I've had it record speeds in excess of 230MPH... in a Toyota Camry.
I tried every decent and legal way I could think of to resolve the issue w/the business before I rented the chicken suit
That is one of the inputs to bog standard traction control in modern cars. So there is no problem whatsover to determine if the wheels had or did not have traction if the relevant information has been recorded.
Actually, the most important bit in the article is that the defence tried to object to the data from the EDR on the basis that the vehicle has been modified to go faster then manufacturer specs. Frankly, if this has been done it should not have been let on the road and considered roadworthy without a full retune of all safety systems - trax, abs, airbag deployment, etc.
Considering that it is not a legal requirement to do so the enforcement is up to the insurance companies. Frankly, the person who sold this guy insurance without requiring that the vehicle go through a full safety reevalutaion is as guility as the guy himself. He should have got the same sentence.
Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
http://www.sigsegv.cx/
The problem was that we could only get data when it was visible to the cameras and sensors and it cost a lot to equip a location. Putting the monitoring into a car would help.
See my journal, I write things there
There is a reason for crash investigations. That is to improve safety. An EDR that records relevent information up to five seconds prior to a crash is a good thing. More information leads to better analysis of what happened.
However, I don't think this information should be allowed to be used as a "tattle tail" in other situations. The information should ONLY be useable in a crash investigation.
END OF LINE
A while back I was involved in head-on collision with another car on a blind bend.
The other driver claimed I was going too fast, whereas they were doing about 20MPH. My insurance company looked at the damage on both cars and determined the speed of impact was in excess of 55MPH. For a while my insurance company believed this other driver's statement, and was blaming me for the accident.
It started to get really hairy when the other driver decided to sue me for causing personal injury.
Then - at my behest - the garage took a look at the black box in my car to determine why the airbag didn't deploy. To discover my speed at the time of impact was 10MPH. When my insurance company was informed they apologised to me, and rang the Police, who threw the book at the other driver.
Scream all you want about privacy, but sometimes big-brother technology has a tangiable benefit.
Do you mind, your karma has just run over my dogma.
it only records the top speed so theres no way to know for sure
It's amazing that we're now in the early 21st century with incredibly advanced technology, but our transportation system is thoroughly in the early 20th century. Surely it's possible to install collision-avoidance systems in cars now, so that cars will react to each other, rather than drivers reacting. Humans are notoriously unreliable. Computers are perfectly reliable, but they're a hell of a lot better. Let's see GPS for quicker trips; automatic acceleration at safe speeds, with "buffer zones" between cars; let's see weather and other hazard detection. PLEASE allow our transportation technology catch up with the rest of the technology world.
Oh yeah...don't forget the speed sensor is located in the transmission after the gears on the output shaft somewhere. The speed sensors on the wheels are for the ABS, which if they read zero, the brakes start to pump. They don't affect the speedometer reading.
Oh yeah, don't speak about things which you know nothing about.
Blake
Man, most of the time you guys seem to know somehting about cars, but I don't know where those people are now...
Do the math....its generally pretty obvious if you have oversized tires. You can estimate pretty easily the diameter of the tires. On cars that that have oversized tires, they usually range from 32" to 44" (Rarely). Just plot the speeds among that range, and you have the range of possible speeds. That is assuming you don't have acccess to ANYTHING on the tires and they were COMPLETELY obliterated. (Very Rare)
Also, the sensors are still not in the wheels. They are in the gearbox. Speed sensors in the wheels are for ABS. Also, gear ratios are pretty goddamned easy to figure out. 99% of the cars on the road have the gear ratios they came standard with. The other 1% can again be surmised easily by plotting a range. Of course, if its not completely and totally destroyed, its pretty easy to whip out the measuring tape and figure it out. Even if you just have a small half inch section, you can recreate the ring gear, since it has a constant angle.
And there's probably much less than 99% of the cars on the road that have aftermarket transmission gears. So we won't even consider that.
Now tell me, do you have aftermarket tires or a diferent gear ration in your differential? Its a safe bet you don't.
Blake
...and you'll realize that this sort of technology could save lives, clear names in court, and be the damning evidence for a scumbag felon like the one in this story.
:D
I would go even further and suggest that a specialized device should be deployed in ALL cars on the road. Use GPS to register speed, position, and direction you're traveling in. Use simple sensors to monitor conditions of the car like RPMs, oil pressure, fuel level, safety systems readiness, state of the engine, interior conditions, anything else anyone can cram into it, and even a voice recorder. What better way to know if someone was driving under the influence? A voice recording device that records for several hours and continually overwrites itself...so that only recent data will be there.
So the firemen and police can show up, take a few polaroids, yank the black boxes from the cars involved, clear the streets and be done with it.
"Its all in the box, so clam up and let the judge decide."
It works for the Airline Industry, why not autos too?
Because some paranoid delusionals scream that "THEY" are watching and somehow might use your driving patterns to stalk you...and revoke your personal rights...which is bullshit, because most of people out there have nothing and know nothing that would interest anyone in power. Even if you DID actually KNOW or HAVE something, it wouldn't be any problem to track you with satelites (80% of the earth's surface covered round the clock) and ground agents so its not like you're handing "them" an ability they don't already have...
I've got nothing to hide, so for me the benefits FAR outweigh the risks. I'd much rather be able to stand up in court and shout "Take a look at the box and you'll see I'm telling the truth!" rather than "NO REALLY ITS ME TELLING THE TRUTH NOT HIM!" Which sounds like a better situation to you?
And if it does turn out to be the final straw that hands the Globalization Dominator Illuminati Clan of Orwellian Oppression Corporate Interest Committee on Taking Away YOUR Rights their final weapon of surveilance against the unsuspecting Proles, I'm sure a group of technologically intelligent human beings like the Slashdot Community would be able to find some way to subvert/circumvent such a device.
So lets see what all you psuedo-anarchists and "underground" anti-gov types have to say to this
Belief that Perspectives matter more than Facts = Mark of the Truly Ignorant
No, really.
All that matters really is that you hit someone. Even if you were travelling at 20mph in a 30mph limit, someone steps out in front of you, you hit and kill them you should still be held responsible for manslaughter and prosecuted.
If you can't determine a safe speed for the road conditions you don't have any business driving a car, and if you have an "accident", by definition that means you aren't up to the job.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
PREVIEW BUTTON! Check it out sometime. For the really courteous folk, there is the option of writing a response/comment in a text editor and then pasting it to the comment box AFTER SPELLCHECK AND A QUICK PROOFREAD. It shouldn't take more effort to READ your comment then it took you to WRITE your comment. Just a thought. Thanks for your future forethought of others.
Belief that Perspectives matter more than Facts = Mark of the Truly Ignorant
60mph sounds reasonable to most people because they drive that fast about every day. This guy was traveling almost twice as fast as he was willing to admit. That is 84mph over the speed limit. Look at it this way, whatever the stopping distance of his car is (was) at 30mph, he was traveling almost 4 times faster. His stopping distance isn't increased 4 times, it would be closer to 16 times as far as his 30-0 braking distance.
Check here and here for some braking distances up to 100mph. Note the measured 30-0 versus the 100-0 stopping distances. A 2002 Corvette Z06 takes 108feet (60 - 0 mph) and 312feet (100 - 0 mph), 114mph would take the vette over 400feet.
This equates to the two drivers having 1/16th of the time and distances to react and make corrections. He was traveling at
114*5280/60/60=167.2 feet per second. His car weighed over 3600lbs with him inside, convert weight to mass, 3600/32.17=111.91lb
(167.2^2)*111.91/2=1,564,269
He was wielding a kinetic energy of over 1.5 million ft/lb, more than enough to destroy a school bus or go through a house, etc.
In my opinion, he wasn't even close to being accountable by admitting to 60mph.
Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see. - Mark Twain
...that everything a person may own should not be designed with a specific goal to hurt him in any way, be it physical or legal?
I mean, a bent bumper of my car can be used as an evidence that it hit something, but the bumper is not specifically designed to be used as such evidence. EDR's functionality that records speed beyond the immediate few seconds when the car impacted something, and makes it accessible, has no excuse to exist other than to provide evidence against the driver -- the data about what happened before the accident is absolutely useless for the car manufacturer. I don't think, when 5th amendment was written anyone thought that it's possible to sneak some "snitch" functionality into things that people own, and this is the only reason why it doesn't extend to such things.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
To be honest, complaining that police and insurance investigators will have easy access to your speed is rather sad. Does anyone complain about the privacy that is invaded from the incredibly in-depth recording of every single aspect of the airline industry? No? Then why complain about this?
Dude, where's my packet?
why not go poking around disconnecting things attached to your airbags? it's not like they're complicated, explosive, safety-critical devices or anything, right?
Like the article says this story is from last month when I heard about it on CNN Headline News.
/.?
little behind
my karma will be here long after I'm gone
They are everywhere, I end up spending half my driving concentration making sure I'm not creeping up to 50 from 40.
The road that runs outside my house has "average speed" cameras for 5 miles. The cameras span your registration at regular intervals (about 500m) and the fine plops through your door.
Am I right that in thre US there is no more consequence for a ticket than repeated fines?
If we get 3 speeding tickets in a 3 year period we are automatically banned from driving for a year.
Also, our car insurance premiums increase.
If anyone's interested there's plenty of info here
http://www.speed-trap.co.uk
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
The mistake you made was a common one, and is my explanation of why speeding kills.
You were speeding irresponsibly.
Yes folks, there is a way to speed responsibly and it can be accomplished by following some basic guidelines.
1) Know your speed. If you don't know your speed, how can you possibly know how long it will take you to stop the car?
2) Know your road. What may seem like a small and shallow pit in the road when you drive at 55mph can act as a ramp when you drive at 100mph and send you hurling in the air without any control over life or limbs. Can one expect animals to cross the road suddenly?
3) Know your car. Will it start to swerve at a certain speed? Are the brakes OK? How much pressure to the brake pedal will cause the tires to lock? Is the ABS in perfect working condition? What's the condition of the shock absorbers, the brakes, the tires? Will it hydroplane on small puddles of water? How long will it take for you to put the car at a complete stop at X mph on a wet road, dry road, concrete road, asphalt road, gravel road?
AND number 4 which really should be common sense (which by itself usually isn't all that common)
Never EVER drive faster than you can actually SEE the spot where you will come to a full stop, should it be necessary to hit the brakes NOW, preferably with some distance to spare.
There is also a number 5 which is also pretty basic. If you happen to pass a cop and the cop decides to engage in a pursuit. By all means, STOP. It's better to have just the reckless driving on your record than reckless driving + resisting arrest (which I believe is what you're doing if you decide not to pull over). Also remember that if you decide to make a run for it you're not going to be as focused on the driving with the cops behind you, as when you're just driving all by yourself. That lack of focus is likely to be the prime factor in accidents caused by reckless drivers.
Speeding by itself doesn't kill, it's the idiots who speed recklessly and irresponsibly that do.
When you are driving on a public road, your speed is a public concern.
I think many Americans think of their car as a "second home". It isn't, it is a transportation device, and when usd as such everything you do is potentially a matter of life and dead to the people you share the road with. If you want privacy, go home where your actions does not endanger the life of other people.
This AC should be +5 Funny not +5 Interesting, moderators engage brains before moderating, tacking chips in fertiliser and gasoline!!!
p.s. AC you better watch out for those my^H^Hthose stealth tracking packets that are now winging there way to your PC now and will be tracked all the way by my^H^H those Sentinals^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H UN Stealth choppers.
Agent^H^H^H^H^H Fred Smith.
...called Intoxicated Vehicular Attempted Murder. If the drunk is caught before killing someone. If they do kill somone, it shouldn't be called "Manslaughter" that doesn't sound strong enough.
It should be called Intoxication Vehicular Murder. Before someone becomes intoxicated, they know whether or not they will be driving their drunken ass home. If they become to hammered to be able to handle their car, that is also their fault. It is also known that drunk drivers tend to kill people while they are driving.
If the law calls DUI, Intoxicated Vehicular Attempted Murder and treats these criminals as attempted murderers, I am fairly sure that we would see a HUGE decrease in drunken driving and fewer lost lives.
I NEVER drive drunk and have had family members killed by drunk drivers that got off lightly in comparison to my family member that spent 1 year of "life" attached to respirators while brain dead, before the family had him taken off the machines. It's not fair that a drunk driver can get off with a few years prison term when they take a life and practically community service when they are caught just prior to possibly killing someone.
If you ignore the other uses of a tool, does that make the tool less useful, or you less useful?
to be the ones that no one will protect so you can pass laws that will take advantage of the rest. Worked in the past, works in the present , works in the future. The failure to raise someone right should not be solved with devices that work to punish. I'm sure the dead people in this world will be glad to know the person was put in jail, to make tidy profit for the local goverment, they might be happier, if it never happened in the first place, but hey what do i know.
It is kinda funny that this story came up on /. today, just as I was reading a story in a swedish newspaper about the black box in SAAB cars and how the data can be used.
Based on this story, it seems that anyone can use the data from the black box in any way they see fit --- in the US.
In Sweden, this would break a law called PUL. For the Police and/or insurance companied to be able to use the data from the black box, the owner of the car must agree to the data being used. The owner of the car can simply refuse and say that no-one is allowed to use the data, in which case it shouldn't affect the owner in any way.
I guess the data can be useful, and it is good that it is there, but I do like the fact that I get to choose wether or not the data should be used.
As there is no law saying the box must be working, if I was in the US, I'd disconnect mine for sure!
If you really want to be a scumbag that get's away with speeding like a complete idiot and NOT register that you plowed through that group of children at 120Mph... simply lock up your breaks just before impact.
If the tires are not spinning, the speedometer cannot head your speed, and will be registered as ZERO... so give yourself a 3 second response and the data will show nothing.
Personally, I think the boxes should record 1 years worth and part of your plate registration the state downloads your last year worth of driving... any GROSS negligience causes you to be ticketed for all offenses.
Something has to be done about the sheer amount of mential retards that thing they HAVE to drive 20 over, weaving through traffic and passing on the shoulder... because eventually we"ll start seeing these jerks dead on the side of the road (Oh boo hoo!) from gunshots. (Ala Calinfornia hoghway style!)
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
The cops accuse you of doing 100+ in a residential zone after a kid runs out in front of you, and then they present evidence that you proactively had the data recording features of your car disabled.
You're doomed.
nice to see you didn't kill someone in order to pull your head out of your ass.
personally, I have no pity for those one car accidents I see where the retard that was doing 110 lost control and embedded his head in a tree. even less for the complete morons driving the crotch rockets... it's better that they remove themselves form the gene pool, or they'd breed more idiots.
Your younger self is the reason I believe that a drivers license is too easy to get. it allows people with no judgement at all on the road. and a full-data recorder should be required on all drivers until they are 18, and pull their license until 21 for ANY offense coupled with Excessive fines... I.E a teen getting a speeding ticket must pay $1000.00 and do 20 hours of community service.
so why do tees get in cars trying to see from their anus?
2. In this case, the evidence from the black box did not by itself decide the case. The speed limit was 30 MPH, he said he was going 60 MPH, the investigator estimated 98 MPH and the EDR indicated 114 MPH. Now, 60, 98, or 114 in a residential 30 zone is reckless driving anyways. All this proved was that he was lying,
3. There was no problems with unreasonable search, in as much as the judge had issued a search warrant for this information.
4. The problem is with automated prosecution, which is what traffic-cameras are, and some say this could be turned into. Combined with GPS and tables of speed limits and such.... Seems this enormous focus on speed to the detriment of other dangerous behavior is caused because speed is easy to measure. I do not for a second believe that we will be any safer with people going 30 MPH, behaving like zombies. Just because the speed limit is 30.
SIGBUS @ NO-07.308
GIGO. Meaning : Garbage In, Garbage Out.
... :-)
Continued meaning : The computer does what you *say*, not what you *mean*.
If you told it to whipe the database, it won't hesitate, simply because it does not, *cannot* think.
You on the other hand can, and you *still* make mistakes (like telling the computer to whipe that database when you do not mean it)
This is unbelievable. The instant you break the law, say by travelling 114 MPH in a 30 MPH residential area and killing 2 people, you no longer have any rights to this type of "privacy." For example, a murder suspect cannot prevent police from getting a search warrant to search their house, car, workplace, etc. on privacy grounds. Police are allowed to gather the necessary evidence to prosecute you, given that there is enough evidence to warrant more collection. Same situation here. Although I do believe the collection of the data should be regulated, I don't think it should prevent the data itself from being used when you use your car as a weapon to threaten or harm.
"And I for one welcome our new insect overlords."
It has been bothering me for some time, but I can someday see that we can automate this whole process of monitoring and reduce costs.
What if some day we start installing devices in the car that automatically print out a ticket whenever you cross the speed limit of a certain area. That way, on your drive from A to B if you overspeed 5 times, 5 tickets get printed for you automatically. It is easy to just match a zone speed limit via GPS, and then look at your speedometer and do they math. By erasing the actual data but only recording the "difference" we can assuage the privacy types on the issue of being tracked by GPS without explicit permission.
I am sure this will attract the support of all slashdotters who say about privacy "Get over it." And of course all the business type would love it to. But somehw it all sounds very odious to me. That's my 2 cents worth.
To see a world in a grain of sand, and then to step back and see the beach where the sand lies
I guess I had better mind my p's and q's. I have a GM car model year 2000...which by the way has turned out to be more trouble-free than my previous rice burner. Maybe I just got lucky, but now I know I am being spied on...... Thank God they don't use Windows or my car would get hacked and probably "crash" on its own....
A good knowledge of physics and thorough examination of the accident scene can get you the same results as one of these black boxes. Why do you think they used to measure skid marks and debris fields? This is just replacing the laborious process of making all these measurements and analyzing them. This box is now the prosecution's/defence's expert witness.
I prefer a void in conversation to a vacuous one.
The fact that your driving habits are recorded in the vehicle is fairly common place these days and somewhat old technology.
What is coming in the future is the ability to pull this information out of your vehicle upon demand without your knowledge or specific permission for that extraction
This has already been developed and tested. For some brands of vehicles, it is already installed into your cars. It's just that no one has really made a point in using it because they haven't solved the legal problems of flagrant violation of privacy it offers. But they are working on it.
It's a matter of time. Remember all the requirements that Cellular phones have a GPS system in them so that they can identify your location based on GPS if you ever dial 911? It's also available to other users who have the equipment.
What really scares me about cellular phones is how they are able to track you without violating your privacy.
Each cellular phone has to register everytime is moves into/out of a cellular antenna cell and that registration is available at the main office. They won't know exactly where you are, but they can narrow it down to a couple block segment of town based on your registrations. They aren't invading your privacy because they don't physically, or electronically, touch you or your phone. But they sure have a clue as to your whereabouts.
The FBI and Police use this technique regularly to track drug suspects so they can figure out the Tree of who's who.
There is only one way around this problem.
for the info
it's one of those weird things isn't it
We all want the right to try and get away with doing 100mph in residential areas.
I'd rather have a government mandated GPS/Galilleo regulated speed limiter then I can forget about the whole stupid business of speed regulation and just drive with my foot to the floor.
The lessons of your own eyes a pretty simple.
There is some class of people that will *always* drive too fast and endanger the rest of us no matter what the road conditions and if 15 years of jail time doesn't stop them and $50,000 dollar fines don't stop them then why not add culpability as well as capability to the vehicle.
I'm sure we'd all welcome a "who pulled the trigger" monitor on every gun.
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
I was only doing XXX opps I was doing less. Humans make errors maybe a black box is a good thing save time reduces costs. Every thing the box was saying could have been worked out by damage to the Car breaking marks and other ways. But the box would save hours of work. Mod chiping is not a option comparing the road markings and damage to the speed would start bells ringing if it was way out.
Now speed alarms in cars and a auto road setting would fix a lot of crashes. Wonder how many a caused by people missing speed signs.
Huh?! So you'd rather I had a crash with a driver behind me who was half asleep, or knocked a child off her bike as she rode into the road by mistake, than speed for a moment to avoid the hazard? These are two real examples where I broke the speed limit to avoid an accident this week. In each case, I judged that accelerating was less dangerous than braking sharply under the conditions at the time. It's not usual to have two incidents like that in a week, but I've acted similarly on numerous occasions during my decade or so of driving.
I have also broken the speed limit significantly, though always safely, in order to transport an injured patient to hospital as fast as possible. I have also broken the speed limit significantly, though always safely, on my way home to my girlfriend, who was alone in the house an hour after it had been broken into.
In each of these cases, although breaking the speed limit was illegal (possibly excepting the case of transporting the patient to hospital, when I'd have a good defence where I live) I think it was better than the alternative. Yet introducing a mandatory speed limiter would prevent me from doing this.
As one final example, consider that HGVs are routinely speed limited in this way, at least within the UK. As one former HGV driver pointed out to me, they used to vary their speed slightly between say 58 and 62mph on long journeys, to break the monotony and keep the attention focussed. Now everyone has to drive at 60mph to make their deliveries on time, and look what happened to the accident rate. :-(
There is a good argument for adding some sort of recording device to cars, so people who break the law seriously and without good reason can be held accountable for their actions. Perhaps then we could stop putting up highly expensive speed cameras that scare honest drivers who might slip up just over the limit while going past them (yes, I know the ACPO guidelines for prosecution in the UK but most drivers don't) and worry about the people who are really significantly reducing road safety by speeding. Who knows, we might even get speed limits based on safety and not profit. OK, who am I kidding? But it's a nice thought.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
"Lawyers aren't stupid."
That could be debated.
. Quit playing Monopoly with Bill. Switch to one of many non-Microsoft products today.
But a human will never make the same mistake 50,000 times in a row in under 2.5 seconds wiping out an entire database.
So the guy that was installing the 800gb mirror array (upgrade to full RAID1 back-up) for the interbank system here, who cleared the *active* disk array didn't do worse? Took them days of restoring back-ups and rerolling transactions to make it work again.
A computer is equaly limited in intelligence and stupidity. Humanity never ceases to amaze me in both directions...
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
"But a human will never make the same mistake 50,000 times in a row in under 2.5 seconds wiping out an entire database"
;)
Obviously you've never had to support the users I have
Lets face it.... 1.5 tons @ 98 mph is an extremely effective demolition tool.
I speak tongue-in-cheek because my best friend and his gf were killed by a driver moving at 90 mph thru a red light....by a truck vs a small compact car.
If it helps put the bastards away for life for murder, which is what I felt it was... then all the better. I'll give up that little bit of safety so that no one else will ever have to experience that phone call.
Wow... what an original joke.
I think, other things like the amount of carnage and skid marks would have revealed he wasn't going at 60 anyway...
sheesh
Just an FYI: A cop has no obligation to put on their sirens or emergency lights when doing the things you describe. It's merely an option for them--and they should use those tools whenever possible for their own safety.
In a sense, they are, "above the law" in regards to the rules of the road. The reasons for this are obvious: secretive persuit, getting to a crime scene without alerting the perpetrators, etc
However, they *CAN* get in trouble if they're just roaming around like a maniac without a good reason. Feel free to report any cop that does this (I've done it, though, I can't say that they were punished for it). One complaint probably won't do much, but it goes on their record for quite some time, so if that cop ever causes an accident or whatever, it could come up in court. Actually, now that I think about it, this probably varies from state to state or perhaps even county to county.
Unfortunately, the only way to complain is to write a written letter to the sherrif's dept. or state police dept. Make sure to include the time and his car number.
-Riskable
"Those who choose proprietary software will pay for their decision!"
I think the speed limit should be high enough that there is no reason to break it, say 95-100mph on most interstates 75-80mph around cities. It should also be vigerously enforced. I'm talking Cars impounded and sold if speeding.
Laws that are regularly broken by 80+% of the people are ridiculous and just make people have contempt for our government and legal system.
Cheap storage VM.
i remember reading a case where the 'eye witnesses' were testifying a vehicle was traveling at 90 mph just before impact. It was, in fact, traveling at 60 mph as recorded by the box, thus declaring the accident 'an accident' and not a malicious or irresponsible driving act.
As with any technology it is not inherently 'good' or 'evil'... thats for the lawyers to decide.
called CarChip and DriveRight from here. Logs everything for hours. It's a geek's dream, teenager's nightmare. For the latter, I don't think you can hack around it since the odometer would have to correlate with it and hacking the odometer is bad mojo. Sucks to be a teenager now. Not only do they know where you are with location tracking GPS phones but how fast you got there.
It is currently VERY illegal to buy or disable the "911 help" GPS emitter in digital cell phones in the US
Uh, my Sprint PCS Samsung 8100 allows me to turn it off at will.
As to your RFIDs in tires? According to your googlecache, "This application specification provides a methodology for the use of 2D symbology (for labels) and RFID in tires and wheels for product identification. This standard is designed to help automate the collection of tire information and the mounting and assembly process of tires with vehicles in the OEM environment. The standard provides information about the manufacturer, tire size, type, including Dot data, and additional optional information as outlined in this standard and as agreed to by the supplier."
They use it in the factory. I'm not particularly worried about them getting the same information about my tires that's on the outside.
Hell, my car uses import Wan Li performance tires anyway. If you're that worried, import them.
Police officers not obeying the laws are so bad in some places (like where I live), that I've come up with a nice idea! I say that there should be governors on the cruiser that doesn't allow the car to operate above a certain set speed unless the siren/lights are on. If it could be tailored to fit the speed limit of the street, that would be even better.
Police are supposed to be setting the example, not casually breaking the law as if they were above it. There's absolutely no reason why anybody should be speeding, right? Why shouldn't that also apply to police in non emergency situations? I'd assume that tampering with a police cruiser would be a pretty serious offense, too.
If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
During the class, we had to prepare a law-enforcement project schedule, and then present it to police top-brass (in our case, it was the third in command) at the federal police academy.
When our team was selecting a project (we all did it with the teacher's assistance - so he could weed-out lame projects early), I proposed an event recorder for cars which could be downloaded by police so they could ticket drivers more accurately (or even if they weren't there to watch).
The teacher became livid and said that we should do something else because "that was coming to be eventually"...
GET USED TO IT, folks. Driving is a PRIVILEGE, not a right. And the State has the DUTY to enforce laws as fairly as it can. And what can you find a better cop than an electronic one who follows all your moves?
This is only "unfair" to those criminals who run red lights or speed or drive dangerously, and threaten the lives of innocent bystanders.
He admitted to going twice the limit in a residential zone. Why did they feel that it was necessary to pull the box and get the data from it?
Yeah, for about 3 weeks before an EDR modchip hits the market that reports whatever you want it to report.
IANAL but the courts will just take the fact you have a modchip as an admission of guilt or an attempt to cover up criminal activity.
This type of after market mod sounds like a bad ideaâ. The data recorded in the chip is used to control many systems including your air bag. Some of the new air bags have a high and low impact deployment modes. Doctoring the data record could:
1) Cause the airbag not to deploy when needed, killing you.
2) Cause the airbag to deploy when not needed, killing you.
[Replace airbag with transmission, brakes, anti-skid and deploy with shift, engage, engage in the above two points.]
But since the people whoâ(TM)d buy a modded chip most likely donâ(TM)t even bother with seatbelts or safe defensive style driving. These kinds of after market changes could be looked at as chlorine in the gene pool.
Now I don't care if someone wants to endanger themselves by not wearing seatbelts or helmets. But nor should anyone else pay their increased medical expenses via insurance rates or taxes.
One reason for seatbelt and helmet laws (even if unenforced) is lower insurance rates by establishing "contributory negligence".
There are 2 problems with using a Mod chip for this sort of thing..
1 - it will be deemed evasion of the law, and you will be tossed in jail for that alone. And most likely cause presumed guilt for the first offence too..
( and its pretty hard to swap it back with the original before the cops show, when the car is in pieces on the side of the road, or you are also in pieces in the hospital )
2- Epoxy/etc.. soon to replace the chip you will end up having to mostly destroy the box.. again showing intent..
Not that I agree with the privacy invasion.. . but it IS a fact of life now.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
As a victim of said cameras, they get you from behind- where you are required to have a valid plate. I believe the cameras are directional (i.e.- one camera can only get those west bound on Street X, another can get those north bound on street Y) however I could be wrong about that.
;)
Now GLARE paint sounds like a plan!
(or I could just not run the red lights... but whatever)
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
Besides, if your car has antilock brakes, you can't lock up the wheels.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Probably not as much as you would think. I have had a large pothole (which was not observable at night) launch my car into the air while I was doing 30 in a 35. So I wouldn't say it is impossible.
Reserved Word.
After shifting to the right lane, the cop accelerated and passed me at about 35 mph over the limit.
This particular cop did not make me feel safer on the highway.
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
Also many cop cars have video cameras that they turn on when they're pulling cars over or persuing a car. The cameras not only gather evidence, but should they be involved in an accident.
One of the main reasons why cop cars everywhere are getting the ubiquitous cameras installed, is that it is part of the federal "Racial Profiling" program. These cameras are purchased with federal grant money, and are there as part of a study to monitor racial profiling trends across the country. The tapes are turned over to US DOJ officials for determining if cops actually are targeting minorities just because they are minorities. I work for a city govt and just installed 80 of these in our patrol cars last year. So far our tapes are showing that the cops are generally pulling over the same habitual "problem individuals" again and again and again, repeatedly over and over and over. Yes, many of this group are minorities, but the tapes are proving that these individuals are not getting pulled over because of their race, they're getting pulled over because their dangerous driving behaviour makes them a menace to public safety on the streets.
This is probably going to net me a whole slew of blank stares for responses, but honestly:
/. would love it. Everybody would agree that it was a good thing.
Why not just obey the freaking speed limit? Honestly, it's not that hard. It's a speed limit, not some novel form of theoretical mathematics. Heck, if it was theoretical mathematics,
For a crowd that so easily shrugged off the influences of peer pressure in the past (persuing the path of the geek in school instead of the path of the prep), you lot seem to fold like an origami sculpture when somebody tailgates or honks a horn at you.
Happiness is relative, Based upon the way we live.
Well, all I can say is, I hope they throw the book at this moron. Going 114mph in a 30??? Now, I am all for a little "spirited" driving, but only when completely safe (on an interstate with little traffic), and have engaged in it myself from time to time in my '02 p-car (986)... but having a car capable of traveling at 180mph doesn't mean one should "test" that capability.
I belong to the PCA (Porsche Club of America) -- and if there is one thing that is stressed, is safety and probably more importantly, awareness of one's car and its capabilities and technology. The PCA and its regional and local chapters, host driving schools, mostly for the goal of "tracking" your car (running on a race track) but the lessons one learns in these classes (which comprise of classroom time and "track" time) teach important lessons of breaking, shifting and handling, and *speed* control.
It just stupifies me when I hear about these lunatic freaks burning down the road at many multiples over the posted speed limit, then completely shocked when their intense stupidity kills someone, and they are held accountable. When I'm baited at stop lights by some dope in a pimped-out honda with an aircraft wing welded to the trunk, I just smile, wave and let the child peel out and "smoke me" so he can then post his "kill" story on some message board how he just "smoked" a porsche.
sad robot making broken music
In both cases, however, HORSEPOWER HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HOW SAFE A DRIVER YOU ARE. If I've got 280hp, and you've got 160- I'm gonna get to 65 coming off that on-ramp faster than you are. That's all. Just because you like to get going fast doesn't mean you like to speed.
It is a pretty funny sight when I am driving my '67 Chevelle (505 HP) on the highway at the posted speed limit and everyone is passing me.
Well, supposing his wheels lifted off as part of the accident. Unlikely if he was going 30mph, but I suppose it's possible.
Gates' Law: Every 18 months, the speed of software halves.
I won't jump on the tin hat bandwagon straight off, but this bugs me like similar sneaky shit that gets coded into my computer gear. It's the dishonesty that bugs me more than the invasion of privacy. At least with the computer crap there is some mention in the EULA that you agree to whether you read it or not. At least you know that you click "AGREE" at your own risk if you don't read the EULA, and you shouldn't be surprised to find spyware if you do. Especially on stuff that's free. I mean hey - if you aren't paying cash you should at least expect the software publisher to harvest some information in exchange for the freebie. Usually this isn't the case on a new car.
Most of the time these things really are innocuous. In the linked article, the bad guy was already clearly in the wrong and the data collected just firmed up the case. It's not like the cops were walking around a parking lot with a wireless device looking for trouble. But the technology for that exists and you'd never know it if they were.
Surely there is a great deal to be learned by collecting crash data like that. On the other hand, when I buy a new car, I'd like to at least know about any data collection like that. Better yet, have an opt-out option. Seems like if GM values that data from my new pickup, they ought to give me some money, maybe a nice fat rebate on a replacement (presuming it was crashed bad enough for them to want the data), in exchange for me letting them access the data. If it truly is my data then I should have the ability to erase it or not collect it in the first place.
This is coming from the guy that posts 50% of the messages to /. ? How can you even have the time to drive?
If( speed > 100 ) /* We're about to crash anyway */
{ airbag(deploy); }
After reading through some posts and seeing the arguments against the use of this sort of tech on the grounds of 'invasion of privacy', etc. Wouldn't a better way to implement something like this be to simply offer insurance reductions for those owners willing to install the box? I dunno, if installing one of these boxes were to lower my insurance rates by a moderate amount, I wouldn't hesitate.
...if you crossed the wrong wires, the airbag will deploy in your face. The risk is real.
it means that cars now come equipped with a device which will incriminate you and you cannot remove it.
removal of the device renders the car useless.
i have one of those in my 2003 f150 and i have asked the dealer and ford to remove it and both have said no.
they cannot remove it because if it is removed, it means that they will no longer be able to diagnose the truck's problems because the black box is actually part of the computer system of the vehicle.
this is in clear violation of the fifth amendment protection against self-incrimination.
I think most of the time, a cop at that light would not have issued you a ticket, but just a warning. I think warnings can be quite effective at deterring bad driving - especially the times when you might not be paying attention and let your speed creep up too much or go through a yellow light that turns red. After getting a warning, I at least am more careful - especially in the area that I recieved the warning knowing that the cop is probably in the area regularly and will ticket me this time since he already gave the warning. Cameras etc linked to automailer computers don't take into account the human factor ( for instance 0.3 seconds after turning is not intentional red light running, it's yellow light duration misestimation )
Eat at Joe's.
I'm sure Germany has emergency rooms, where you can be treated without insurance, right? They no seatbelt person will go there and get treated at the taxpayer expense, rather than their own policy. Sounds like a bad idea to me.
Blar.
I think that LCD idea has potential to be an automatic plate changer, and could work aside the 'oil slick'. It would be better thant he rotating triangle because you could have a pad of buttons near the console with a variety of road rage slogans like - 'the bird' 'get off my ass' 'jerk' 'I have a gun' etc.
Eat at Joe's.
If it stops even 1 person from killing a child crossing the street, it was worth it.
And what about the victims and their families? I know I'd be grateful for such a device. I've had 2 relatives who were killed in separate auto accidents where the other parties were accused of speeding.
Such a device would have been used to unequivocally prove who was at fault, and we would have been able to sue for a larger claim to raise 2 motherless baby girls...
Where can I get a free Mercedes or BMW?
...where is the site that tell you how to erase this cyberrecorder? Calling all geeks, calling all geeks! Let's restore some privacy. I want an erase button on my dashboard!
How the hell do you know what these boxes record? Actually, I'm pretty sure these boxes record the actual speed curve. A single "top speed" data point is virtually useless as an investigative mechanism, for both the police and the manufacturer.
In this case the accident investigators estimated his speed at impact to circa 98mph. Judging from how the cars looked after impact, length of brake marks etc. I imagine. So in this case the EDR just corroborated the evidence that was already there.
This is a concern though. These devices weren't designed to produce data to stand up in court, and hence cannot be relied on to do so with impunity. There's always risk involved in pressing technology into service it wasn't designed for.
Stefan Axelsson
This isn't the first time of heard of a case like this. I seem to remember a case where a guy hit a school bus and the insurance company recovered the EDR from the car and showed that the driver was going over 60 when the accident happened.
Note that along with speed, EDRs also record the position of the steering wheel and whether or not the brakes are being engaged. Apparently, they can give investigators a pretty good idea what was happening up to and including the instant of the crash.
I have been told (by a "friend of a friend") that the EDRs are put in to protect the manufacturer; say if the driver/passenger was killed and it turns out they weren't wearing seat belts, travelling too fast, etc. A quick google search yielded the existence of NHTSA-02-13546, which is the standard for EDRs in cars. The EDR must be tamper resistant in terms of case, hardware and software.
EDRs are an integral part of the vehicle's safety system (air-bags, seatbelts, anti-lock brakes and so on) and tampering with them will a) void any warranties and guarantees and b) probably be interpreted by insurance companies and the courts as you operating a vehicle in which its safety systems are compromised.
So, if you have modded your EDR and are in an accident where the insurance company/police pull the EDR at the accident scene to understand what happened, you are, to use the legal term, "fucked".
myke
Mimetics Inc. Twitter
How exactly can you get the rear tires on a front wheel drive vehicle to spin off the ground? What the fuck are you smoking? Besides, the computer probably knows that the speed is invalid if the readings from all 4 wheels are not the same. Yes, there are sensors on all 4 wheels.
Uh, recording what DID happened is NOT the same as controlling what WILL happen... The systems you mentioned are controlled by live readings as to what IS happening...
(Stolen sig) Remember: it's a "Microsoft virus", not an "email virus", a "Microsoft worm", not a "computer worm
I was at dinner the other nite talking to the prosecutor on this case, Mr. Horowitz. He's a good guy. I don't see this as very big brother'ish. It's not much different then a radar gun. I don't think you have an expectation of privacy as to the speed of your vehicle. Anyone doing the speed limit would know your going to fast. LouSir
Then Criminal Speed may come as a suprise to you. Yup, criminal charges for speeding, putting you in the same catagory as assault, burglary and posting goatse links. I didn't know there was such a thing until a friend got charged for 105 in a 65 zone.
Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see. - Mark Twain
Of course, such open and shut cases highlight the "good" uses of technology, but how would you feel if you find out that a little black box has been installed in your computer and is reporting you to the authorities since you downloaded mp3's. You did break the law, just like this guy.
How about your own, personal ankle bracelet? Come on, it can be used to establish your alibi. See, you did not commit that murder. That's good, is'nt it?
Anything you say, do, and where you go will be held against you in a court of law. Cheers.
You imagine that he went off a jump that had the wheels off the ground long enough for the engine to spin the wheels up to twice their original speed? Man, to gegt that kind of air, he'd need to be going, what, 120?
As many posts have noted... what would you think if you hurt or killed somebody in an accident and your EDR incorrectly stated that you were speeding? And then some vengeful fuck sues the hell out of you, and wins, because you had a faulty EDR.
Actually, in this case, the guy WAS a sleazebag. He was legally drunk(.12, well over the legal .08 in FL), and, according to the Sun-Sentinel, "Matos had a lengthy criminal history, including 20 prior convictions for charges such as grand theft, fraud and bank larceny."
So, not that the previous poster was so educated, but yeah, he was a sleazebag.
Any sufficiently well-organized Government is indistinguishable from bullshit.
The guy was a sleazebag. He was legally drunk(.12, well over the legal .08 in FL), and, according to the Sun-Sentinel, "Matos had a lengthy criminal history, including 20 prior convictions for charges such as grand theft, fraud and bank larceny."
I'd say he REALLY did it to himself.
Any sufficiently well-organized Government is indistinguishable from bullshit.
An impressive 114 MPH in residential. Sounds like a Hell of an advertisement, "Our car can do 0-114 between stop signs"
I am an oragami folding ninja.
Privacy? When you're driving, you're in *public*. These black boxes are just recording what witnesses would say if they were around to see. (Automatically and more accurately.) I don't think you have any expectation of privacy on a public road. Slippery slope and so on, but for now, just using them in case of accident, I have no problem at all. Do you think someone should get away with this kind of driving just because there were no witnesses and he was a good liar?
:-)
Note: IANAL, but I watch a *lot* of Law & Order.
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
... and a trapdoor for security.
I seem to recall that in Japan, some cars can sense the speed limit of an area, and beep at the driver, should he speed, thus embarassing him to his passengers, which is often more than enough to keep him from speeding.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
As a long time Mustang autocrosser and road racer I will tell you that the Mustang is notorious for instability. Especially at speed under heavy braking. It ain't no Corvette, that's for sure. But your problem, as you admit, was stupidity.
To drone on like the others.. There are safe and unsafe places to speed. Your judgement was terrible.
I am all for speeding in traffic, though I don't drive much above the speed limit. I generally will not drive with a group of cars if it can be avoided. Why should I drive next to someone eating a big mac and talking on the cell phone as they weave in and out of their lane? Why should I allow myself to get boxed in with no place to go in order to avoid an accident? Constantly advancing through traffic at a reasonable rate is safer. Though I should state that I Never speed in residential areas. My speeding is about enjoying quick acceleration and then returning to near the speed limit. In a Corvette, 50 or 100 mph feel the same, so there is no 'thrill' to going steady state 100.
For 6 years I commuted 60 miles/day on the highway. At the beginning, I was young and had a lot of points on my license. A single ticket for 1 mph over would have resulted in a license review and likely suspension. I drove 55, not 56. I did that for a couple of years and then, as my points came off, it was balls to the wall. 90-100 were not uncommon and I did it for years without a ticket.
I think that I did it to stave off the boredom of the drive. Constantly plotting a course through traffic, observing traffic patterns for indications of hidden speed traps, etc. I was very good.. I felt a need to speed whenever I drove on the highway, even if not going to work. Part of it has to do with the part of the country you live in. Around Detroit, people *SPEED*. Around Seattle, people are sloth (many not even reaching the 60 mph speed limit).
Eventually, a wonderful thing happened. I got a new job. And I no longer had a highway commute. As a result, I no longer had the urge to save time by speeding. Not while going to work or otherwise. I started driving within 5 mph of the speed limit.
All this talk of black boxes saving people is BS. Kids are still going to drive fast and stupid. Old people (and young) are still going to drive in a fog as though they were the only car on the road.
My Corvette has a black box. It is part of the air bag deployment system and would be extremely difficult to remove without losing the airbags. The best approach would be an auto-destruct mechanism.
We need better driver education. Though even that won't give people a clue. For example, if you can't learn to parallel park, you shouldn't receive a license.
Generally, it all comes back to taking responsibility for your actions. Most Americans behave like they are the only person in the world and for that I am ashamed.
One also has to remember that a lot of people out there don't have much to live for. They place a low value on life, especially yours. That is a very good reason to get yourself some serious driver education.
Only experiencing extreme driving situations will prepare you to react properly. An autocross school and a few events will make a big difference and are very, very cheap compared to the thousands for a big racing school. Contact your local SCCA.
CDRs came into cars because of a a DOT request (actually the investigative arm, which also investigates airliner crashes). It's unclear how much information is stored in the various airbag control modules, if any on a number of vehicles. GM has the most extensive info on pre-crash speed, throttle position, and braking, while Ford has more data on the crash pulse shape, useful in determining accident severity and injury potential. They are the only two companies that have made the information public, and Ford only on a few vehicle lines, and only after putting a warning in their 2001 and later models that the information is being recorded.
The equipment to download CDRs is available from Vetronix, and costs about $2500. I've used it to resolve some accident reconstruction cases, but as with all data, you have to interpret its meaning. The examples of 100 mph speeds because of hydroplaining, for example, would almost certainly produce a big discrepancy between the speed information (and likely demonstrate unreasonable accelerations) and the crash pulse shape, and would be obvious to an engineer.
"I was going about 130MPH up hwy 280"
I drive 10 to 15 over the speed limit regularly. I am a speeder. I am not an "idiot" as you once were.
There is a big difference in regards to saftey IMO.
=====
imagetweak.netWeb-based image t
The data is in a fixed size filo stack extending several minutes into the past. It deletes the last data point and shifts all the data down and adds the newest data point to the top of the stack. (Yes, I know it really it just moves the pointer to the tail of the stack.) It quits recording a fixed delta T after key events, like air bag deployment.
The 'live readings' are only a single data point in the stack. There is no way to positively detect most of the critical events that trigger changes in the mode of operation in a complex system from a single data point. The key events are a certain detectable profile in the historical data points. That is the reason they bothered to record them. Should the transmission shift from first to second gear at 250 wheel rpm? Maybe, maybe not; it depends on the throttle position history, engine rpm history and the history of changes in the intake vacuum.
The auto makers have been sued so many times over new technology they CYA by preserving the stack exactly as is to be able to prove their anti-lock braking or whatever sub-system worked. They use the data to show that âoeAuntie Jane missed the brake and floored the gas running over 18 people in the wedding party before smashing into the treeâ and not that âoethe anti lock brake system decided all the tires were skidding and reduced the caliper pressure while the cruise control opened the throttle causing the car to accelerate out of controlâ.
The record is the stack; the stack is the record. If you monkey with the stack as part of the termination of the recording you are potentially tampering with the evidence at a crime scene no reputable company would accept the liability for a product that does that in today litigious society. It could be just be deleted and have the same effect but you couldnâ(TM)t safely alter the record on the fly to reflect âsafe and saneâ(TM) driving.
The sci-fi movie 5th element had cars that would auto-ticket you if you commited a violation. As far fetched as that may seem, there are many folks who think that would be a great idea.
Myself, having worked with computers all my working life, I absolutely hate the idea of a machine making judgement calls over humans. Because, as we all know, computers and the code they run are subject to bugs. And if something like this were aproved, just image what it would take to convince the judge (eletronic too?) that the black box has a bug.
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable" - JFK
the five seconds PRIOR to the crash are held in memory; not the fastest speed the car has ever driven.
Oh, and your mechanic can pull the same info at service time.
All the more reason to keep my '83 slant-6 on the road. Sure, I don't have air conditioning, power steering, power anything. But I know I won't be forced to incriminate myself with a little black box.
Someone hates these cans.
I will sue until everybody must be driven by robots. For one beeelion, because I'm right. Bwah.
Silly laws make silly people make silly laws, look for silly people, maybe silly parents with silly rules for silly homeschooling or silly morals, and who knows what is going on behind those silly closed doors, I'm so silly.
You're speeding down the highway, feeling pretty clever becasue you know where you can speed, and where you have to slow down. You're approaching a red-zone (where you usually slow down, because a cop sits there often enough to scare you.) The redneck who has been riding your ass in a 1979 Silverado with an 8 foot lift kit decides that gun it and pass you at 95 miles per hour, flicking you off as he passes.
you think "Damnit, I hope that cop's there today and arrests that asshole"
well he's not and you wish you were speeding too, and you turn to your wife, lover, best friend, or whoever in the passenger seat and say 'Asshole, I should call the cops on my cell phone and report him!'
A big BLAH to all of you winers. Technology to enforce the law isn't infringing on anything, they're just catching you infringing. Just because they couldn't do it before is no reason to have a damned hissy fit.
Speak for yourself.
BBC programme top gear showed us last season that speed cameras and the like can fail if you're travelling fast enough. Basically the first moment it detects your speed (or position), and the next moment it takes your picture... But if you're fast enough, you could be gone by the time it gets to step 2.
They ran a gatso at 171mph and the car didn't even register! Check it out!
Unfortuneately, this is not true in the lastest GM products for the US market. Most of the data loging is now in an intregrated unit with common memory space. The systems that generate the trigger events are all stand alone but the sensors that feed the digital subsystems are shared.
This system applies this much extra force in the direction you're turning the wheel. It gets tested to hell and back too.
You talking power steering? That is a hydralic feed back loop using a pilot valve in the steering box. Turning the control wheel moves the steering linkage that is built with a bit of flex in it. Deflection of the linkage moves the pilot valve. The pilot valve shuttles the control valve and moves the front wheels until the defection in the linkage centers the pilot valve. Loss of pressure in the control section or the pilot section of the system places all the load on the linkage so even with the pump dead you can still steer the car. No digital data to record.
San Peur! Cousin
It looks like some people should have a black box for their laptop so that the accident investigators can see if they were compiling the latest kernel or rebooting from a kernel panic while making that left turn into the river.
--==-- I've found Karma to be a relative thing... Ya know, the kind you invite to Christmas...
the police get to use a proportion of the fines on dealing with road safety issues in their area.
If I recall *all* the profits from camera fines etc. have to be spent on the road safety budget. This could well mean sometimes that officer overtime for such things is taken out of it but they are not supposed to offset the cost of anything else against the money made from speed cameras.
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
most people who ride sportbikes are better drivers than those who tool around in 2 ton cages. it is the idiots in cars driving 110mph (running reds, not looking, reading the paper, etc) that kill the "crotch rocket" riders. see this site for the type of training motorcyclists go through:
Motorcycle Safety Foundation
if everyone had to ride a motorcycle for a while, they'd gain a HUGE respect for driving, when they realize how often stupid drivers nearly kill motorcyclists. which would you prefer? ignorant reckless drivers, or a driver who's riden, knows how stupid other drivers are, and how to pay attention?
Well, at least indirectly... In the back of many cars (since at least 1988, and probably before that), there's a sort of "suspension compression" monitor that is used by the braking system to modulate the braking pressure differential front-to-back. So, as the nose of the car dives during hard braking, the brake pressure sent to the rear wheels changes.
The monitor is usually attached to one of the suspension arms in the back of the car, and was purely mechanical/hydraulic on the 88 Ford Taurus.
In the US, we are free to do what we choose unless it has been specifically made illegal. Even this has exceptions. For instance, if the law is unconstitutional, it is the law, not the lawbreaker that is at fault.
Basically, anything not declared illegal (in a constitutional framework) is our specific right!
The minute we lose track of this and think that the government has "granted us" these rights, we have lost them. In the US, the people have granted the government the authority to govern OUR concerns in a limited fashion. They answer to us, not the other way around!
Every basic founding document for the US reaffirms our right to replace any government that strays from this directive. And I'm not talking about electing new politicians to replace bad ones either.
So, is driving my right? You had better believe it. It is only when I abuse this right that I lose it. As it should be (but is not) with all laws.
You may disagree with me, but what you are disagreeing with is not me, but our history, our constitution, and our laws. Freedom is our heritage and with that comes the right to do what we please within the confines of decency and propriety. With that also comes the responsibility to act within the confines of reasonable laws.
This is not the case in other countries. What makes the difference is that our founding fathers recognised (and unequivocably said) that God has already granted us those rights and that the (US) government was simply going to recognise and bow to the higher power.
In the US, don't say "it's a privalidge, not a right" again! The more we give away our rights, the more they will disappear.
'nuff said...
PS: And Yes, I am from Texas. Why do you ask? ;->
--==-- I've found Karma to be a relative thing... Ya know, the kind you invite to Christmas...
...Have your car telephone the police whenever it catches you speeding.
I am alone, yet I also surf the universal backwash of undifferentiated Being, which is LOVE.
"Driving is a privilidge, not a right." Only cuz the government says so. But our Western tradition specifically says that our rights are inherent, not granted to us by the government. If the government were to start issuing work licenses, and said working was a privilege, not a right, and you can't work without a license would you go along with it? What about purchasing goods? Or dancing or reading or singing or fishing (oops too late)
Reduces reliance on witnesses (like the driver's girlfriend) who may or may not be honest.
I say about freaking time that these idiots get busted somehow. Take it from someone who was hit by a minivan doing 55 in a residential 25, and had a driver with a witness that lied about it. These ESD things would have made my case a little stronger.
They believed the woman's husband over the evidence that my truck had spun 3 times and ended up in someone's yard.
The ESD would have told us her exact speed.
I am all for solid evidence in autos. People should be held accountable for their stupidity behind the wheel. Too bad they can't put breathalyzers in every car too and keep a log of average bumper to bumper distance at 75MPH. Now that would get us some telling results.
I am all for the auto-bust. Behind it 100%. There aren't enough police to keep people driving in a sane fashion, we need to automate the process.
Start writing tickets at +4 mph for *every* offense and I will be happy. Imagine the suprise when someone gets 25 tickets from a single day of stupid driving.
That will hit the idiots right where it hurts, and maybe make them think twice before killing people. It isn't an accident if you are operating unsafely, it is vehicular manslaughter. If it were up to me, it would be murder 1.
You make a decision to drive too fast or drunk, and you know the possible consequences. It is very simple to not speed. Take your foot off of the pedal.
l8,
AC
No offense, but I've heard the argument "If it saves one life" used many times before to justify anything. While I don't oppose these devices, I think spending millions of dollars on a device and saving only one hypothetical person would be worth it. Am I an evil bastard who thinks human life isn't worth a nickel? No, but your argument is fallacious because there are other better, even cheaper methods of achieving the same purpose- police patrols, speed bumps, cameras, etc.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
#define THE_QUESTION (TO_BE) ((TO_BE) | !(TO_BE))
TO_BE == 1
((1) | !(1))
((1) | (0))
1
TO_BE == 123
((123) | !(123))
((123) | (0))
123
TO_BE == 0
((0) | !(0))
((0) | (1))
1
So, really, there is no question. The result of THE_QUESTION is always non-zero, which is C is considered "true".
TO_BE == 123
((123) || !(123))
((123) || (0))
1
Also, I don't know if you really meant a bitwise or, you might have meant a logical or, as then you would always wind up with 1.
Anyways.
Norris/Palin 2012
Fact: We deserve leaders who can kick your ass and field dress your carcass.
These devices commonly measure incorrect peak speeds in the "seconds before the accident" because they do not (presently) take into account the rear wheels being off the ground.
It is possible to get very high readings immediately following a collision, even when the car is completely stopped. Lack of a precise timebase that is synchronized with any other timebase is an additional issue when considering their value as evidence in a trial.
Mandate governors to prevent any vehicle going faster than 50 mph. Save thousands of lives -- seriously, this PREVENTS accidents, but the blackboxes aren't going to stop drunken assholes from speeding down suburban streets. At best, they may save some court time as they won't be able to argue the facts.
More hitech: have a variable governor tha enforces the local speed limit. Obviously, make it ilegal to tamper with it, as for anti-pollution devices. Cars kill far more peole than enything except cigarettes.
if it ever gets used in ernest to convict or prove anything people will come up with ways to hack the system so that it tops out at 70 or something...
I'm all in favor of black boxes in cars, as long as the information stays in the box until physically obtained (and not via wireless means).
Even better would be some way to record the current state of traffic signals... have an accident and be able to say "see? I was doing 34mph and I had the green light!"
Link it to distance sensors to tell how fast/far another car is coming at you and their relative positions for the previous minute or so...
As long as you aren't doing anything wrong you won't have a problem...
Actually, I seem to recall that in some states with metered lights motorcyclists did not trip the sensor in order to change the lights. I've heard several stories of bikers having to get off their bikes, run to the corner, press the pedestrian walk button, and run back to their bikes to avoid breaking the law by running a red light at an intersection with no traffic for miles in any direction.
Just one example of a time when running a red light maybe isn't quite so dangerous or irresponsible as categorized. I wouldn't argue that running red lights is beneficial, but I think there are situations where the letter of the law may be broken, but the REASON for the law (public safety) was not violated. This is one reason I'm against automated ticketing systems.
Old programmers don't die, they're just cast into a void
OnStar doesn't store this information for that very reason. The court will have trouble executing a search warrant for data that doesn't exist. I believe OnStar subscription will greatly decrease if they begin storing such information as GPS coordinates. If the storage is requested by the owner of the vehicle (e.g. it's been stolen), totally different ballgame...
This automatic ticketing scam has went a little too far. Last time I checked when the light turns yellow you go if you're past the point of no return. If I'm pulling a trailer with a few tons in it, I might roll through that light a full second after it turns red before I lock em up, burn some rubber, and slide all over the road.
In Michigan, any accident involving an ambulance or a fire truck is AUTOMATICALLY the ambulance/fire truck's fault. I don't believe this is true of police vehicles though.
Honestly, I don't have much of a problem with this use of the black box. It is just a more accurate way of determining exactly how fast someone was going when they got in a wreck. It's not like it can be used to spy on you (yet), or report your destinations to the "proper authorities" or anything scary like that. I know people hate it when they get the extra fine on top of the vehicular manslaughter charge, but it's not Orwellian yet.
I thought old age still got more people than cars or cigarettes, this must be a more dangerous time than I know. I bet you won't be appreciating that governer when you're doing 50 on the interstate, nor will you appreciate it when trying to rush to the hospital with a dying person or a wife in labor down empty streets.
I read the internet for the articles.
There's no way I'm going to drive one of these cop wet dream vehicles.
In my short life I have seen my fair share of idiots who destroy lives due to negligent driving while either intoxicated or just for possessing low IQs. Personally I think we are not strict enough when it comes to enforcing traffic laws and punishing dangerous driving. People forget driving is not an entitled right.
Now with the release of the 2F2F we have had 2 major racing accidents within the week in Miami. I think these EDRs should be uplinked to the police department if you exceed a certain speed your info is wired and the Cops are notified.
If you are driving on a public road, your actions on that road are not private.
"Then - at my behest - the garage took a look at the black box in my car to determine why the airbag didn't deploy. To discover my speed at the time of impact was 10MPH."
I don't get this. Doesn't the 'black box' only record your speed when the airbag deploys.
Good point, though this gets me thinking, how dificult would it be to get the signal out of the air, or get access to the satellite?
Darthtuttle
Thought Architect
It seems that there are two types of riders here: safe and unsafe. It also seems that there are two types of bikes, put simply: chrome and plastic.
I have never seen a chrome rider weave around the lanes (and in-between!!). And I have seen plastic riders ride dangerously more often than not.
"It's a very tangled subsystem." --Windows kernel guru
100+ in a residential neighborhood? What was this guy trying to do -- get his modded DeLorean up to 88 miles per hour?
"When this baby hits 88 miles per hour, you're gonna see some serious shit." --"Doc" Emmett L. Brown, Back to the Future
Depends upon if he's in his DeLorean or not!
Now if someone else plans to murder someone with a vehicle, they should know to use an older car without airbags. Could a law person please tell me if vehicular homicide is murder and not manslaughter?
Chalk me up as one of the first people to get one of these modded chips. I legally race my cars on the weekend, as do many of my friends. I also don't like my free will being taken from me in the car. As an experienced race car driver, with an SCCA license and plenty of track time and driving schools under my belt, I can tell you that there are certain times when more throttle is exactly what you need.
Not only will this kind of chip take away my ability to race my cars (again, I must state that I only race on the track), and will make my car more dangerous on the road by removing my ability to brake if nessessary.
To answer your points above:
1.) Many of friends remove or disable the airbag, because they have installed five point racing harnesses, and the air bag really isn't going to help in a collision, and will cause additional damage to the car.
2.) Again, if the bag isn't there, it can't hurt you. I'm not saying the bag isn't a good thing, I still have mine, but it's not the end-all be-all that some people believe that it is. It's a supplimental restraint system. If you have the proper primary restraint system, the supplimental one doesn't have a whole lot to do.
Even so, the airbags aren't deployed by speedometer, they are deployed by an accelerometer, which is what sometimes causes the bags to explode when they shouldn't. Tampering with the EDR shouldn't change anything with the accelerometer (which only measures effective acceleration and deceleration, not relative speed).
2.5) (replace airbag w/ transmission, etc) First, I don't own a single automatic automobile. Never have, and hopefully, never will. Not everyone likes to have a computer shift for them. Even so, most upshifts and downshifts on automatic transmission are handled by the engine RPMs and amount of throttle, not the speed of the car. If this was the case, changing tires would cause all kinds of problems. Now, you do have a point with ABS and stability control systems, but these are easily disabled, and many racers do exactly that.
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Not only will this kind of chip take away my ability to race my cars (again, I must state that I only race on the track), and will make my car more dangerous on the road by removing my ability to brake if necessary.
/ nh aa/nhaa_home_page.html
1) These chips do not control the car. They do not limit speed. They do not limit braking. They control systems âAunt Blair the blue haired wonderâ(TM) doesnâ(TM)t even know her car has. You can race your car all you want. Only the last 5-7 minutes of data are recorded.
2) You might have a five-point restraint system installed but âAunt Aunt Blair the blue haired wonderâ(TM) doesnâ(TM)t. She needs an air bag.
3) There are five inputs to the newest airbag systems.
A) engine rpm
B) wheel rpm (speedometer)
C) throttle position
D) y accelerometer perpendicular to vehicle centerline
E) x accelerometer parallel to the vehicle center line
Some systems have additional sensors on the energy absorbing mounts on the bumpers.
4) You probably have one now and donâ(TM)t know it.
I was a mechanical systems designer 25 years ago and have kept up with the trades since.
I also don't like my free will being taken from me in the car.
Donâ(TM)t worry. You only think this infringes on your free will. Wait until after the 2-Fast 2-Furious crowd kills a few more people street racing and the digital drive-by-wire systems mature in 5-10 years. Then the safety freak socialist soccer moms will mandate the hands off computer-aided approach to driving. Mercedes Benz had an autopilot autonomous control equipped technology test bed car they drove from Munch to the heel of the boot of Italy sometime around 1990. The No Hands Across America project car drove over 2849 miles, achieving 98.2% autonomy (i.e. the human supervisor intervened 1.8% of the trip)in 1995.
http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/tjochem/www
Soon, as in the next 20 years, you will not legally be able to drive any of your modified cars over the road due to safety concerns. Get used to it.
As I recall, in Massachusetts, any accident involving any publicly owned vehicle (police cars, etc.) are automatically the non-government vehicle's fault.
I'm not shy, I'm stalking my prey
>BMW = Linux?
No, BMW = Microsoft now. After they released their new 7-series with "iDrive", powered by WinCE, which has had numerous complaints not only of being unstable, but of just being a PITA to use compared to normal buttons and switches, I no longer have faith in BMW as a company dedicated to making a quality product. A decision that stupid I would have expected from Ford or GM, but not BMW.
This blackbox system only triggers in event of an accident. There are no significant privacy issues of such a system that I can see.
-WolfWithoutAClause
"Gravity is only a theory, not a fact!"So you see he should have been running FVWM2 instead of BlackBox.
That the defense tried to use the fact that he modified his car for speed as an argument against a recording system that would likely have assumed values that would make the 114MPH figure inaccurately SLOW? And even if the system was wrong, it's unbelievable that a lawyer would even consider mentioning that the fool disabled his speed-limiting software in a case like this one.
I hope I never have to experience a phone call resembling anything like the one you recieved. It would be terrible, and I can't imagine how I'd react.
However, anyone who kills someone with a car will usually be locked away without the use of a black box. I don't understand how you can come to the conclusion that the situation would have been avoided if the driver's car had a black box. (which it probably did, since airbags have been mandatory in new vehicles in the US since around 1996 or 1997?)
The crash investigators in the above story already knew he was lying and could prove he was driving at least 98 mph. Read the title, it HELPED conviction not PROVED his guilt. With all the ways we are already tracked and traced, and all the technology available to investigators, these boxen are pointless. Prove me wrong.
When the national media needs to hype more tracking devices, all they need to do is enlist someone who has experienced a loss similar to yours and distort some facts to show that tracking = safety and they have their heartwrenching story that proves nothing. Sorry if I sound blunt, but I'd rather die by drunk truck driver @ 98MPH tonight, then die at age 75 living in a fascist police state. I'm sorry.
Computers never make mistakes, do they?
Im sure you've all heard the quote that goes something like "the problem with computers is they do exactly what you tell them to."
the wheels can spin freely. There is nothing in the sensors that tell if the tires are on the ground
Actually, you're wrong. When the wheels are off the ground, the sensors in a car do know, causing the computer to activate Traction Control, which his Trans Am and many other cars have. If the EDR doesn't record that traction control was activated, its due to a lack of foresight by the car's engineers. The computer did exactly what it was told to do.
Moderation Totals: Flamebait=2, Troll=1, Redundant=1, Insightful=6, Overrated=1, Underrated=1, Total=12. (not mine)
see my previous comment
here
Moderation Totals: Flamebait=2, Troll=1, Redundant=1, Insightful=6, Overrated=1, Underrated=1, Total=12. (not mine)
It should be noted that in the case of FL v. John Walker, Ft. Myers, FL, Jan. 2003, Walker was acquitted by a jury of two counts of vehicular manslaughter. The "black box" evidence contradicted the testimony of the state's accident reconstruction expert. The prosecution held that Walker was driving in excess of 80 mph in a 60 mph zone but the data recorder revealed a speed of 52 mph at impact. In this case, the data recorder evidence was in the favor of the defendant. Without this evidence, a conviction was very likely.
I am much less concerned about a black box that only records a few minutes of data and is only extractable in A CRASH SITUATION than I am about speed cameras and the potential of RFID devices such as those "easy-pass" toll booth things. Speed cameras are an extremely efficient way to raise revenue. The District of Columbia raised tens of millions of dollars last year (mostly from out-of state residents too), and with their expansion plans will expect to net $100 million/year....and they are not even using those things in the most efficient manner posible!! With such vast revenues possible, and most states in dire financial straits, expect those things to expand nationwide before the end of the decade. Eventually, expect the RFID devices that allow you to roll thru toll boths to become mandatory. Such devices could actually be incorporated into the tax or inspection stickers everyone must put on a car, and would allow: -- Efficient collection of tolls without impeding traffic and allow toll booths to be put up everywhere -- tracking of vehicles all around the US for homeland security purposes -- efficient issuance of speeding tickets the same way the PA and NJ turnpikes did in the old days with the old-style toll tickets (distance/time = average speed) -- efficient enforcement of tax and inspection laws for vehicles Now you are talking real big brother!!!
I had a 16 year old kid spin out in my residentail neighboorhood, slide into a telephone pole sideways, break his mustang in half and then slide about 150 feet down the road (made a hell of a noise). I asked the kid how he did it and he claimed he did not know, wasn't speeding or anything... My curse is I live on a street in a residential area that is straight for about two miles. The kid walked away - personally thought he should have been beaten or something...
Care to provide a source for a statistic that rates the durability mechanism of a seat-belt release in a serious accident resulting in fire vis-a-vis the chance of being even capable of escaping such a wreck to begin with?
I think seat-belt release mechanisms are very simple and durable devices (mine tend to get stuck in the unlatched position when it's hot outside).
I'd be more concerned about being concious after the wreck so I can crawl out the window. If I hit my head against the steering wheel because I'm not harnased, I don't think I'd have a chance and I'd likely asphyxiate.
Oh, and there are plenty of high-speed collisions in which a seat-belt would be important that don't result in fire. That's a Hollywoodism. God forbid the car touches something, BAM! There goes the gas tank. Christ on crutches...
Black holes are where the Matrix raised SIGFPE
into a guardrail at 45 MPH, your car catches fire?
WHAT KIND OF CHEAP-ASS DETROIT DEATH TRAP DO YOU DRIVE????
Fine, don't wear your safety belt, if your car is a piece of shit.
Black holes are where the Matrix raised SIGFPE
... systems so that your car passes inspection.
I don't imagine that such a statute would go into law unless this was permitted; the taxpayers would not have it.
Black holes are where the Matrix raised SIGFPE
evil
check out that pic. privacy concerns anyone?
ill take my car in for maintance, they hook the puters up to it. see ive raced 25 times with top speeds over 220kph (canadian eh). time to call the cops and book me.
HEADLINE NEWS! Street racers found to be cause of SARS.
So do you hear those McLean Bible Church commercials at night a lot on WTOP too? :-)
Black holes are where the Matrix raised SIGFPE
He'd have to be going the same speed as if he were in a 40/50/etc. speed zone :-P
This was posted to slashdot a few months ago: Michelin to add DOT tags to all new tires
Besides, it's in the tires. If you're going to smuggle drugs, then make sure to visit a chop shop every week to keep the feds running in circles.
Also, I'd be more worried about RFID tags in various parts of the vehicle frame, which probably is going to happen soon (or is already happening) to ease factory production.
Now I want to research this more and build a detector! I can think of all sorts of neat things to do with this tech. Thanks, AC, for alerting me to this (not really so private) issue!
Black holes are where the Matrix raised SIGFPE
I bet this guy thought he was just the A-example All American Badass. I pulled up to someone like him the other day. Driving a newer trans am, 9 MPG beast, at that. I pull up in my low emission newer Honda, and this guy looks at me, my car, and revs his engine. Yeah I'm a scrawny white boy driving an efficient economy car, so kill me!
I laugh and look the other direction, not giving the fool the time of day. What does he do? Drops clutch and burns out in a very busy suburban intersection. A cop from three lanes down actually pulled out of traffic and drove down the shoulder to nab that bastard. As the light changes to green (it was in the middle of changing when the guy floored it, already red at the other intersections), I proceed and give the guy a nice "bird's eye view" as he is parked on the side of the road, a very disgruntled and very plump officer approaching him.
These types of people, I am realizing, are the same people who used to pick fights on the payground; they have an overwhelming sense of insecurity and are at and endless quest of balance via any other means. He's just another bully, only now he's picking fights on the road.
Don't get me wrong, I love fast machines, I am the proud owner of a Toyota Supra TT. But there is still no excuse for safe driving. It doesn't proove anything to do 110 mph in a 30 mph zone other than you're an idiot and are going to kill people -- eventually -- which is what happened in this case.
Unfortunatly it doesn't seem like this was the guy's first time, and he deserves to be jailed. Those girls probably didn't know what hit them when this 3000 pound monster came hurling down the road at them.
"I'll just chip in a bit for RedHat: I actually have that installed on my university machine." - Linus, '95
If the person sitting behind, say, the driver isn't wearing a seatbelt, even though the driver is, the driver is going to be rather unhappy. Nice heavyweight 250 pound guy hitting the back of your seat at 60 MPH is not within card design guidelines.
May we never see th
1. The probability/causes of faulty EDR's should be studied and well understood.
2. Faulty EDR's could be tested during annual Inspections along with the other stuff.
3. The scene of the accident would be consistent with EDR, (high speed may leave long brake marks, severe destruction, or other supportive evidence or witnesses).
3. The jury, lawyers, judge, etc. would be informed and aware of the issues surrounding faulty EDR's and the likelihood of such.
Whether or not it stops people, I won't argue. I think it will make some people think twice about speeding.
But I do believe it will be of tremendous benefit with the devastating legal and emotional aftermath that ensues for the victims. And society will be better off from it.
The governors you propose is a poor analogy. It is an active device that directly intervenes and limits us. The EDR is passive OTOH, and merely records data.
On another note, there is the worry of faulty EDR's. There are some systems that will record much more data, including the turn radius of the steering wheel. With greater detailed telemetrics, one might be able to recreate the accident and correlate it to the actual scene. Thus you would be able to spot a faulty EDR.
And then the government could require them be checked during yearly inspections.
It wasn't an analogy.
You do not have the right to operate a vehicle on a public street, it is a privelage granted by the state you live in (hence the 'driver's license'). I am not a lawyer but it seems to me that you should not have the right to hide the details of your driving while on a public street. In other words, the EDR data should be a matter of public record and therefore should not be a privacy issue in this case.
... and no sensors on the seatbelts, either. Lojack? Nope. They got nuthin' on me!
so, where are you now?
(I bet you don't miss HFS or WDC anymore now that they're owned by ClearChannel. Besides, theres' a website if you really miss Elliot in the morning)
Black holes are where the Matrix raised SIGFPE
but I'm trying to remember which Andrew this is. Do you come with a last name?
(You're friends with Kev... I'm recognizing the whole nethernet thing)
Black holes are where the Matrix raised SIGFPE
Right, it was a suggestion.
:)
At least your terse response don't argue the merit of my points, which is good enough for me.