Slashdot Mirror
Gates tried to Blackmail Danish Government
mocm writes "The Inquirer has a story about how Bill Gates tried to pressure the Danish prime minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen into accepting the European Union's proposed directive on software patents by threating to terminate the 800 jobs at Navision, which had been acquired by Microsoft." Update: 02/16 00:41 GMT by T : cfelde points out a CNET story which says that "The European vice president of Microsoft Business Solutions, Klaus Holse Andersen, denied on Tuesday that the jobs at Navision were ever at risk." Believe who you'd like.
That would be extortion, not blackmail.
KTHXBYE
...from heise.de (in German).
Do not be alarmed. This is only a test.
How mafioso
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
Don't think of it as "Blackmail" so much as "Microsoft Job Incentives"
TRHOnline - Staggering Towards Brilliance
You veel accept ein pahtent deerektive, or your employeess.. vill be terminated!
It'd be a shame if someone was to.. set fire to them.
Hokey statistics and ancient misconceptions are no match for a good thought in your head, kid!
COWBOYNEAL: BLACKMAIL!
Inigo Montoya: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
this has become standard, at least in the US. Corporations play one state against the other to gain tax breaks, increase dole payments, and other entitlements. These welfare subsidies can net a several hundred dollars of government payments per anticipated position.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
Note that this story is also being covered by Groklaw, with some good commentary by Pamela Jones.
John Sauter (J_Sauter@Empire.Net)
According to dictionary.com, blackmail is defined as the extortion of money or something else of value from a person by the threat of exposing a criminal act or discreditable information.
Whereas extortion is defined as the Illegal use of one's official position or powers to obtain property, funds, or patronage.
Is it not extortion that has occured here?
Mainly it talks about how parts of the IT sector wants to block the contensted directive and how the proponents have been unable to get through due to effective lobbyism from the contensters.
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.
We are going to get ruled more and more by corporations, rather than governments. Since Microsoft is making more than most American states, they also wield quite a bit of power. And since politicians can always be blackmailed with the prospect of lost jobs (Siemens did that in Germany, and lots of other comapnies too), I wonder how long until our right to vote is transferred to our employers ...
EagerEyes.org: Visualization and Visual Communication
These threats are common. However, is there really any relevant connection between where R&D/software development takes place and where one can apply for patents? Of course not. Nothing is preventing Microsoft from applying for US patents for the things they "invent" in Denmark. The question of where they can get a patent is not intrinsically linked to where they do their development.
IAAAL - I am actually a lawyer
a Microsoft spokesperson later said that they would look at fixing extorsion and racketeering problems in Version 2 of their conversation.
Support for software patents for just 800 people?
He who has the gold, makes the rules.
Hmm... Let's weigh the options for the Danish government:
1. Loss of approximately 800 jobs
2. Implement stifling patent policies that will likely make Microsoft and other massive patent holders even more wealthy while crippling innovation within their country.
I wonder which one they should pick?
I'm a big tall mofo.
i hope that this is not the truth. but it would be another proof that some companies are to mighty.
for a lawsuit.
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
Seriously. He does. Anyone else ever hear about his name totaling 666 in askii? His name I think is actually William Henry Gates III or something - look it up. Total the #'s used in ascii and you get 666. I don't remember if you add 3 for the III or not, but it's six in the morning. Anyways, they should just nationalize the company that he suddenly, mystically, magically owns, after he fires everyone, and then no one can complain. They'll make a lot of money on top of things.
Don't you mean.. BIZZARO!
Corporations are 'pressuring' public officials every day, often using bribes. The World Bank is well-known for bribing officials, and that info comes from the former head of the World Bank. Corporations are and the banks that represent their interests are always bribing people. Just look at Coca-Cola, charged with assassinating union leaders in Columbia: the assassins were govt-paid paramilitary agents, who set up a military camp outside of a factory after the assassination to intimidate the workers. When you look behind the veil of TV and the other media, what you see is sickening, frightening to some, and outrageous. After all, just look at how Bush stole the 2004 election in order to help the corporate interest: www.electionfraud2004.org.
So what else is new?
Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
I've heard this kind of logic from the patent lobby numerous times:
"If we don't get software patents in Europe, we can't develop stuff there. We have to develop in in the US where we have software patents available."
This is pure FUD and BS. Why can't we develop stuff in Europe and apply for patents in the US? Most of the technology in patent applications in Europe was developed in foreign countries.
The smart thing to do is to develop tech where you have smart people. And apply for software patents in the US and have a free market without software monopolies in Europe. If you develop a product that happen to infringe on a forest of software patents, you can only market it profitably in Europe. Too bad for the US.
I hope politicians learn to call this kind of extortionist bluff soon.
)9TSS
Cheat.
Its not how you win the game, only that you do. At any cost.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
I'm beginning to believe that what I read in sci-fi will come true (ie: in the future, mankind is ruled by corporations that want to make money).
And even more scary is the fact that for one extortion of that kind we hear of, numbers of other extortions of the same kind happen and we never hear about it. Brrr.
This is pretty interesting in a "Who is John Galt?" way.
We for one reject our software patent wielding overlords!
500GB of disk, 5TB of transfer, $5.95/mo
A rough translation of the original Danish article is also available.
Gates said that he's displeased with the process of political decisions on software patents in the european union. In particular, he seems to be unhappy about the successful opposition by many european IT companies and software developers.
He further claims that Microsoft can secure their rights better in the USA.
I call BS on that: if Microsoft relocates Navision to the USA, they can patent there all they want, but guess what, their patents won't mean squat in Europe without the possibility to patent software in the EU.
Do not be alarmed. This is only a test.
Couldn't Microsoft just buy Denmark?
Err, India has software patents, it was introduced recently.
Converting all Danish government IT away from MS towards OSS will surely bring far more than 800 jobs and KEEP those in the country.
Go read some Gibson "Cyberpunk" books to see what you get if you let corporations run the world.
Just my 5€Cents.
>from the dancing-with-the-devil dept.
Now what did the Danish prime minister do to deserve such a name?
And yes, they actually do quote the original article. PJ runs such a tight ship. I sometimes forget, being a denizen of /.
Surely they purchased the company for a reason. The staff would have been part fo that reasons.
Laying off that many staff in a fit of pique would create a perfect opportunity for a competitor to set up a company that does pretty much the same thing with the same employees.
Everybody gets all holier than thou over stuff like this, but I really don't see any reason why Gates is doing something wrong. Ownership has no meaning without the ability to do what you want with it. If I buy a priceless work of art for the express purpose of destroying it, that's my perogative. If MS acquires a company to use as a bargaining chip to get something they need, then that's their perogative. If the Danes didn't want him to be able to do that, they should've blocked the purchase of their company in the first place, or they should not bend to his demands and be willing to suffer the consequences.
Frankly, I don't understand why powerful people don't use their power more often. If I had been Martha Stewart, for example, I would've told the government that if they convicted me, I would liquidate my company and put all my employees out of work. I would then use my remaining wealth to buy small businesses and shut them down. And then ask the government whether my head on a stake was worth that price. It may sound like I'm advocating white collar terrorism, but I think that if you have leverage, there's nothing wrong with using it.
please wake up. it's "we, the corporations of the USA"
Privacy is terrorism.
The charge would be "extortion", not "blackmail".
Gates would be found innocent of blackmail, because that's a different crime. It probably doesn't matter to the media, who are usually sloppy with terminology. But if you want to convict someone of a crime, you have to charge them with the crime that they actually committed, not some other crime.
Any criminal lawyers here want to expound on the definitions?
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
Microsoft seems really open to fair competition and doesn't resort to extortion or underhanded legal tactics.
On this very sound footing, I suggest that we use an 80% patent-encumbered standard with Microsoft's core interests at stake. Let's base our core desktop software on it and hope our regular and very consistent enemy won't try to do anything nasty to us!
PS: To all the dreamers who are going to tell me that CLR and C# are ECMA/ISO standard. . . Let me tell you that published standards hold no weight against the market standard-bearer and should remember that Javascript was an ECMA standard called ECMAscript and they still onesy-toosied the Javascript standard.
No, not me. I've never worked for Navision and can't recall anyone I know (personally) who's done so.
However, a while back (before her marriage to our crown prince) our crown princess did work for Navision.
I can't help but wonder if Bill Gates would have dared threaten to close the workplace of an upcoming queen...
It's 19:11:42. Do You Know Where Your Meat Body Is?
Back at the peaceful Simpsons house. Homer is reading "Internet for Dummies".
HOMER
Oh, they have the Internet on computers now!
MARGE
Homer, Bill Gates is here.
HOMER
Bill Gates?! Millionaire computer nerd Bill Gates! Oh my god. Oh my god. Get out of sight, Marge. I don't want this to look like a two-bit operation.
Marge groans and rolls her eyes. Bill Gates and two "associates" enter.
GATES
Mr. Simpson?
HOMER
You don't look so rich.
GATES
Don't let the haircut fool you, I am exceedingly wealthy.
HOMER
(quietly to Marge) Get a load of the bowl-job, Marge!
GATES
Your Internet ad was brought to my attention, but I can't figure out what, if anything, CompuGlobalHyperMegaNet does, so rather than risk competing with you, I've decided simply to buy you out.
Homer and Marge step aside to talk privately.
HOMER
This is it Marge. I've poured my heart and soul into this business and now it's finally paying off. (covering his mouth) We're rich! Richer than astronauts.
MARGE
Homer quiet. Acquire the deal.
HOMER
(to Gates) I reluctantly accept your proposal!
GATES
Well everyone always does. Buy 'em out, boys!
Bill Gates companions begin to trash the "office".
HOMER
Hey, what the hell's going on!
GATES
Oh, I didn't get rich by writing a lot of checks!
Bill Gates lets out a maniacal laugh. Homer and Marge cower in the corner as the room continues to be trashed.
As a dane i found this switch in the Microsoft - Denmark relationship quity funny:
h y_cant_w e_all_be_like_denmark/
r otten+in+D enmark/2100-7343_3-5267742.html
Ballmer has seen the future, and it's Danish
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/07/13/w
TORONTO--Steve Ballmer says there is a simple way to turn around Microsoft's money-losing enterprise applications business--make the whole world like Denmark.
http://news.com.com/Ballmer:+Nothing's+
it's not like this is surprising, Microsoft is well known for using extortionate tactics to get things done in its favour.
By summer it was all gone...now shesmovedon. --
2 a : a written or oral defamatory statement or representation that conveys an unjustly unfavorable impression
The only way this could be construed as immoral or objectionable activity is if you accept the premiss that Microsoft's monopoly dominance is absolute and that there are no acceptable alternatives
Actually, this has nothing to do with monopolies. It's immoral because Gates is threatening to lay people off. 800 people out of work is not something a politician wants, nor does it help an economy. What Gates was doing was using the 800 employees welfare as leverage which is immoral.
Jason Lotito
How did he respond? Or has he not responded yet? If he hasn't, is there a way to reach him? A letter-writing campaign maybe?
Honey, I shrunk the Cygwin
The only way this could be construed as immoral or objectionable activity...
Rubbish. I'll decide what I do and don't find objectionable, thank you. I find threatening people's livelihoods in order to bully their governments into enacting the legislation you want to be very highly objectionable.
Describing natural consequences of legislation is acceptable. That isn't what they are doing here. The place in which software is developed has no impact on whether it is patentable in any given market. This is a threat, pure and simple, it's a threat against innocent employees as a way of pressuring others, and it should be resisted.
To summarise the summary of the summary: people are a problem. ~ h2g2
I must have missed a briefing...
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
Philadelphia gets screwed by Newark and vice versa all the time.
Especially when it comes to businesses that move every 5 years for tax advantages.
It's the republican Mantra "If you can't hang with the big boys, then get out of the way"
When ever a story about Microsoft is posted you get those who say that people only hate Microsoft because they're number one. No, so many people hate Microsoft because stuff like this and this is only a single incident.
Here's something I wrote the other day, which seems particularly appropriate now this story has come out:
The Cast:
- Mr. Gates
- A European Commissioner
The SketchA `customer' (with brown envelopes and chequebook aready) enters the €C in Brussels.
Mr. Gates: 'Ello, I wish to register a complaint.
(The commisioner does not respond.)
Mr. Gates: 'Ello, Miss?
Commissioner: What do you mean "miss"?
Mr. Gates: I'm sorry, I have a cold. I wish to make a complaint!
Commissioner: We're closin' for lunch.
Mr. Gates: Never mind that, my lad. I wish to complain about this patent law what I purchased not two years ago from this very office.
Commissioner: Oh yes, the, uh, the computer-implemented inventions one...What's, uh...What's wrong with it?
Mr. Gates: I'll tell you what's wrong with it, my lad. 'E's dead, that's what's wrong with it!
Commissioner: No, no, 'e's uh,...he's resting.
Mr. Gates: Look, matey, I know a dead patent law when I see one, and I'm looking at one right now.
Commissioner: No no he's not dead, he's, he's restin'! Remarkable law, idn'it, ay? Beautiful sophistory and ambiguity!
Mr. Gates: The anbiguity don't enter into it. It's stone dead.
Commissioner: Nononono, no, no! 'E's resting!
Mr. Gates: All right then, if he's restin', I'll wake him up!
...
Mr. Gates: You let the European Parliament kill 'im, didn't you!
Commissioner: I never!!
Mr. Gates: Yes, you did!
Commissioner: I never, never did anything...
(Mr. Gates takes patent law out of briefcase and thumps it on the desk. Throws it up in the air and watches it plummet to the floor.)
contd...(due to limit on post size)
Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley
[This post is in the public domain (copyright-free) unless otherwise stated]
NO SOFTWARE PATENTS, NO NAVISION IN DENMARK SAYS MICROSOFT
According to danish newspaper Børsen [1] and the Copenhagen Post [2], Bill Gates, the founder of Microsoft is threatening the danish government to move jobs from Denmark to the United States should Denmark continue to oppose the software patent directive.
Although the political players in the European Commission, spearheaded by Commisionner Charly McCreevy, continue to assure the proposed directive would not allow US-style patents on business methods and software to creep in the european patent system, the big companies in the IT sector seem to know better.
FFII, one of the key players in the opposition of the directive, sees its analysis verified by Microsoft and is asking when the council and commission will decide to tell the truth about the planned directive.
They urge the Commission and the Council to accept what democracy wants. Several national parliaments and the european parliament have come to the conclusion that the current proposal is not acceptable. On thursday the european parliament will decide to aks the commission to throw away the beleagured proposal and return to the drawing board.
"We are not opposing a directive, we want a good directive and the current proposal is simply not good", says Hartmut Pilch, founder and president of FFII. "We have seen that the majority of SME in europe know exactly what they would gain from the current proposal - nothing."
For these very reasons FFII has decided to call for a demonstration in Brussels. On Thursday, 17th of february they plan to show the council that they think it has become a "Banana Union". More information on
http://demo.ffii.org
Links
[1] http://www.borsen.dk/dagens-nyheder/?ids[]=70135 [2] http://www.cphpost.dk/get/85881.html
Prelaminary translation of the article
Gates threatens Fogh [dk PM] with closing Navision
The founder of the world's largest software company Bill Gates is now
ready to close Navision in Denmark and move the almost 800 developers in
Denmarks largest software company to the USA.
This was firmly stated when he met with Prime Minister Anders Fogh
Rasmussen (V) [V = liberal party] in November 2004, as well as the
minister of economics and industry Bendt Bendtsen (K) [K = Conservatives]
and the minister of science Helge Sander (V).
The threat may become reality, if parts of the IT industry succeed in
blocking a controversial EU directive on software patents, that
Microsoft [more than anything in the world] wants to be approved, but
which time and again has been delayed thanks to their opponents very
efficient lobbying.
"If I'm to keep my development center in Denmark, then it's a
requirement that the question of rights becomes resolved. Otherwise, I
will move it to the USA where I can protect my rights" said Bill Gates
according to Microsoft Chief legal council[?] Marianne Wier, that also
took part in the meeting with Anders Fogh Rasmussen.
Bill Gates bought the Danish development department, which builds upon
the merger of the two IT companies Navision and Damgaard, for almost 12
billion DKK back in 2002.
It has not been possible to reach Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen
to have him explain in detail [lit. "deepen"] how he reacted on the
harsh message from Bill Gates.
Additional information
* Navision is a ERP software provider, no research entity. It was bought for 1.4 Billion DKR, not to gain access to Navision's patents but to enter Navisions enterprise solutions market. Navision has very good ERP solutions and competes with SAP. German SAP also has very few software patents, although they are rapidly increasing their portfolio. At the ERP market there are hardly any software patents. The whole ERP market is dominated by European players.
* Where are those DK Navision software patents? See 35 granted software patents suspected from Denmark. Before Microsoft boug
Ever heard of copyrights? You know, those things that currently give good protection to software developers (not to mention artists, writers etc) in Europe right now. Oh, but hang on, that can't be right can it? After all, surely we're all living in a dump right now because we don't have software patents to protect us. Now, I should really stop typing at my computer because it must be imaginary, turn off my radio to stop hearing those pirates playing illegal material and stare at the wall because I have no reason to do anything innovative.
Really, get a clue.
Silly rabbit
The Sketch (contd...)
Mr. Gates: Now that's what I call a dead patent law. The JURI is no longer out on that patent law...its most definitely deceased.
Commissioner: No, no.....No, 'e's stunned!
Mr. Gates: STUNNED?!?
Commissioner: Yeah! 'E was stunned by all the public backlash! Patent laws stun easily, major.
Mr. Gates: Um...now look...now look, mate, I've definitely 'ad enough of this. That patent law is definitely deceased, and when I purchased it not two years ago, you assured me that its total lack of movement was due to it bein' tired and shagged out following prolonged internal diplomacy.
Commissioner: Well...uhhh...we prefer to do things dead slow and sure like in the EU!
Mr. Gates: Well...the dead bit is most certainly right. Look, why did it fall flat on his back the moment I got home last time? I never had these problems with Congress...
Commissioner:Remarkable patent law, id'nit, squire? Lovely contradictions and those beautiful convoluted sentences!
Mr. Gates: Look, I took the liberty of examining that patent law when I got it home, and I discovered the only reason that it had got as far as it had in the first place was that no one had actually READ it.
(pause)
Commissioner: Well, o'course they don't! They're not payed enough for that...at least they are, but we pay 'em NOT to read 'em. That's the trick, you see. Trust me...that patent law will fly straight through as an A-item in the fisheries committee...just like...a parrot, sir...you know parrots love a bit of fish...the great thing is, sir, that the ministers and MEPs avoid it like the plague on account of it stinkin' to 'igh 'eaven...
Mr. Gates: Never find how 'igh your damn committee stinks, this patent law wouldn't fly through your committee if you put four million volts through every minister present! 'E's bleedin' demised!
Commissioner: No no! 'E's just a li'l slow!
Mr. Gates: 'E's not slow! 'E's passed on! This patent law is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! 'E's pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked thebucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-PATENT LAW!!
(pause)
Commissioner: Well, I'd better replace it, then. (he takes a quick peek round the back) Sorry squire, I've had a look 'round the back , and uh, we're right out of patent laws.
Mr. Gates: I see. I see, I get the picture.
Commissioner: I got a HIPC initiative. Uhhh...your good...ummm...friend, Mr. Brown had this idea you see but he hasn't got the means...
(pause)
Mr. Gates: (sweetly) Pray, will it take out my competitors?
Commissioner: Nnnnot really.
Mr. Gates: WELL IT'S HARDLY A BLOODY REPLACEMENT, IS IT?!!???!!?
Commissioner: N-no, I guess not. (gets ashamed, looks at his feet)
Mr. Gates: Well.
(pause)
Commissioner: (quietly) You know I thought that uhhh...spread in Teen Beat was rather good...uhhh...D'you.... d'you want to come back to my place?
Mr. Gates: (looks around) Yeah, all right, sure.
Copyright
The original dead parrot sketch was written by Graham Chapman, et. al. for Monty Python's Flying Circus and is © 1989 Pantheon Books/Random House, Inc. My modification of it is co
Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley
[This post is in the public domain (copyright-free) unless otherwise stated]
As for Martha, had she tried those stunts, I'm sure that the DoJ would be happy to add bribery (maybe extortion) charges and her shareholders would've sued her to powder. There is supposed to be separation between the legislative, executive and judicial branches of govt in the US. And an independant judiciary (incl prosecutors) most everywhere else.
This company is far from any ethical standards and any proper business conduct. We can safely say that Microsoft is acting in a criminal manner besides producing mediocre software and paying their executives to spread blatant lies.
At the same time there are honest people, companies, and organizations that produce quality open source operating systems e.g. Linux.
There is simply NO excuse to use windows anymore, perhaps except for gaming. People who still use windows are retards and companies who do are not just acting irresponsibly but are guilty of supporting this criminal entity.
What a bastard that Gates must be to blackmail Danishes.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
Post as AC, and you get what you deserve.
If it's in you sig, it's in your post.
Generally, something "arm twisting" like this is commonly considered "racketeering", meaning "if you don't do what we/I want, 'something bad' is going to happen".
stuff |
from what I understand (which may be very little, who can tell such things!) Bill Gates doesn't own Microsoft and hasn't for a while, he only has a small stakeholding.
details here(new window)anyway, sounds like bill's bark is worse than his bite. I dont think he has the authority to make this kind of decision for microsoft!!! (although you can argue the rest of his ms minions will follow he every command). Sounds like the danish pm has nothing to worry bout.
as to this tactic, its a normal business tactic. not suprised in the least, its how the world works.
It looks like you're trying to write a blackmail note...
Leela: "You're blackmailing me?"
Bender: "Blackmail is such an ugly word. I prefer extortion. The x makes it sound cool."
You and I don't seem to look at the same kind of map.
Did Stalin live in Sweden or Germany?
It's all coersion either way.
I thought all you gen X libertarians lived and died by the bitchslapping magical invisible free hand of commerce. If Danes don't want to have jobs, no one will force them.
resistance is futile...
120 chars is not bloody enough for a real sig!!! you bastards even count spaces!!!
Change the players to something more politically correct, like a Hybrid Car factory, and watch exactly the same thing play out. Big companies always look to put their people, their money, and their wake-generating activity in a place (or tax framework) that best suits their bottom line. Why do you suppose that Japanese car manufacturers have partnership plants in Kentucky? Because Michigan was out of room? No, because they dangled issues like jobs in front of political decision makers, and the best deal won. Did the editors of this posting just fall off a turnip truck or something? That headline is gratuitous. Come on, now.
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
Whether or not this story is accurate, I think it serves as a reminder that corporations by nature don't have ethics.
For-profit corporations exist to generate profit. Every action a corporation takes is scrutinized to ensure that it works toward the goal of making profit. Actions that might appear to be based on ethics are still motivated by profit. For example, donations to good causes aren't done as a nicety; they're for generating good PR and tax write-offs.
//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
Just as soon as it reboots...any second now...is the Deathstar back up yet? Damned 14 year old hackers!
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
It was clearly obvious that this sort of thing was going on in the debate over software patents in the EU. I'm just glad some of it -- any of it -- has come to light. Don't get overly excited about this news. It's also clear that any big company in the business of proprietary software is in there, pulling out every dirty trick they think they can get away with so as to get software patents passed. I would encourage the EU-based Slashdot readership (*both* of you, according to how many comments I read about how biased Slashdot is towards America...) to get involved in digging up more of these stories for submission. Microsoft fears what I hope: that blockage of software patents in the EU will culminate in the reversal of allowing them in the USA.
Acts 17:28, "For in Him we live, and move, and have our being."
No problem, if they sack experienced developers and move to the USA, those developers will go work for someone else and make another European company!
The value in that company isn't in the existing products, its in the knowledge of the people to make next generation products.
They just want less competition in Europe.
The software industry in the US is ofcourse terrified at the prospect that Europe will not get software patents... I guess they consider this an "unfair condition" for competition, since the belive that european software companies can create cheaper "copies" of US developed software.
But another thing: as I have understand it you are required to very carefully document what you patent. So, to get a patent on software you will have to decribe the used algorithm very carefully.
Now, US software patents may render quite a dangerous tool for american companies as their european counterparts quickly will gather the needed information from the patents documents and create a substitute version. The tool will turn itself against its master...
Ahhh..
Yet another display of the supreme quality of topographical knowledge of the average US-ian.
And people tell me I'm overly judgemental and I'm being way too hard on poor widdle Bill when I tell them about what a tyrannical, degenerate scumbag he is.
However, Gates being a genuinely evil human being is a fact that we've all been aware of for some time. The thing that I suppose we should be appreciative of when he continues to behave like this is the fact that the more he does it, the larger the number of people who will come to see him for what he truly is...which will in turn bring about Microsoft's decline all that much faster.
So please, Bill. Carry on with the Darth Vader/Al Capone routine, by all means. All you're ultimately doing is digging your own grave...a fact about which the rest of us couldn't be happier.
This is Bills' twisted take on bribery.
"If you do this morally worng thing for
me, I'll keep 800 people in your pathetic
little country working...
until the next time you #$%! europeeans
piss me off."
Gates is threatening to lay people off. 800 people out of work
But working for Bill Gates' company is not a natural human right, so what is objectionable about this? Just because he is wealthy (and he's a self-made man, remember), those 800 people suddenly have control over his finances?
Say you had something for auction on eBay. One bidder contacts you and tells you he really needs the item you're auctioning, and he came to your eBay auction because he expected to get it at a low price. He tells you he expected to pay only 10% of what the auction's currently at, and it's not even over.
Do you have a moral imperative to stop the auction and sell the item to the beggar at the cost he wants? If not, why does Gates?
People do not have a right to be employed by Bill Gates, and if it will be such a disaster economically if he pulls out of an area you'd think the politicians would be bending over backwards to suit his demands -- seeing as how their livelihood is apparently utterly dependent on Mr. Gates' presence in their area of political control.
And it's working. The government suddenly seems to be in favour of the patent law after Billyboy threatened to move the largest IT business in Denmark to the US.
And what's with Poland changing their mind?! I bet they've received an offer they couldn't resist, too.
Ahh, thank God for the freedom of western democracy!
Given the trend of governments, especially those in the EU, toward use of FOSS to run their bureaucracies, I would expect that a ploy by Microsoft like the one reported could blow up in their face. What would stop Rassmussen from saying to Gates "OK, you fire the 800 programmers. While they are looking for work, we will fund their unemployment insurance with the money we save by dumping Microsoft OS and Office products. In fact, maybe some of those displaced workers would not mind helping us install and configure Linux, Firefox and Open Office in all our departments." The Danes are not noted for caving in to aggressive ulitmatims.
SLASHDOT: news for people who can't concentrate on work or have no life at all and got tired of yelling back at the TV.
That's spelled "MafiaSCO".
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
If you care to check out my other posts on the subject of EU patents, I do wonder just where Microsoft would be behind the curtains.
In the everlasting words of Bill Gates "Suprise Fuckers!".
Well, I think this is obviously a way of setting up a legal platform to kill linux (after SCO failed) by removing the last bastion of patent turf war.
We need to have out own patent office, the GNUPatent office, and get it recognised.
#hostfile 0.0.0.0 primidi.com 0.0.0.0 www.primidi.com 0.0.0.0 radio.weblogs.com
I find threatening people's livelihoods
You mean the ones Gates created and sustains of his own free will?
This is a threat, pure and simple, it's a threat against innocent employees
You mean the ones Gates himself employs?
The Stolen Concept
flows to the politician. Here in colorado, I was surprised that no MS jobs and no taxes outweighed 50,000 jobs from Sun, IBM, and HP and their taxes.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
It's a vague definition, but it leaves open an interpretation in which extortion and blackmail are in some ways the same. In this situation, Mr. Gates attempted to coerce by threat. According to the dictionary, anyway, that's blackmail.
OK, so given that the main article's title changes "blackmail" to "extort", /. is probably not committing libel.
I'd change it. Even though Gates is a "public figure" it really is poor practice to throw around accusations carelessly.
Seastead this.
Couldn't Microsoft just buy Denmark?
Hmm, let's see ... Denmark's biggest bridge, that's about 6 billion USD right there? You do the math.
zWhat would an EWOULDBLOCK block, if an EWOULDBLOCK could block would? -- me
Hi.
2 15.txt
There has been sent an open letter to the Danish prime minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen. The letter can be read at: http://perlpimp.dk/openletter-primeminister-20050
The letter is in Danish, but maybe a translation is comming up?
P.S. I am a citizen in Denmark.
thomasdamgaard.dk.
Its not just that alternatives exist, its that MS can lock them out totally by 'leaveraging' their monopoly. Which many would argue is exactly whats happening.
I don't know about you all but if I was in this government, I'd make sure that Danmark would ever, ever again buy a Microsoft product and move to an open source solution (or, rather, accelerate the migration since it seems many European countries are looking into that lately).
Bill, if you read, thank you for digging your company's own grave.
I happen to live in Denmark, and trust me, it's not the size that's the problem. The problem is that our minister of state from the once-liberal, right-wing party "Venstre" ("Left" in English, kinda confusing actually) has allowed the Danish People's Party, a bunch of rascists with close ties to the extreme right, to dictate the immigration laws in order to get their support in other areas.
Anti-immigration is nothing but rascism. Phew!
Why not restrict software patents to smaller start up companies? For a 7 year patent time or so?
These large corporations dont seem to help humanity in any way. Cutting of jobs, threatening governments? It's getting out of control.
Smaller businesses, on the other hand, could produce more jobs and don't jam up the justice system suing anyone against them.
I find it interesting that we pick on MS for this while other corporations in the US do this daily to individuals, companies, states, countries, and even other corporations.
The irony is, unless you're a self-sustaining hippie commune in rural Idaho, you're probably going to be a corporate consumer if you like it or not. Our entire way of life is at the mercy of corporations. You're a tool of the man, man.
I might know what I'm talkin' about, but then again, this is Slashdot...
If that is what it takes to get them out of this country (DK), then so be it.
If only they could have let us know, that this is what it would take to do it many years ago...
/Hilli
Come on. All this because it's Bill Gates. Poeple, companies do this all the time. Some companies are always threatening the Parti Quebecois in Quebec to leave Quebec if it ever separates from Canada. Company threaten governments to leave if they raise the taxes to much. This is not news.
I'm not saying this is an okay thing. Companies should not do this. I'm just saying it's unfair to make this newsworthy only because it's Microsoft.
Why is there no criminal act? I think there is, since false arguments are being used to pressure democratically elected politicians.
If overthrouwing the government is illegal, this should be illegal too, and deserves harsh punishment for the persons involved.
Your logic is astounding --- I guess we have no grounds to ojbect or complain about anything unless it violates a natural human right. Now genius, why not define natural human right for us.
Here is one for you. The corporation doesn't have a natural right to make a profit, nor use the roads that taxpayers pay for, nor the airwaves for communications that are owned by the people, etc. etc. etc. You corporate apologists make me want to puke.
This is not blackmail. The poster of this threat should be shot. At best this is extortion - more likely it is using political influence - just like MANY lobbyists do. You know when the NHL goes on strike for contract disputs, SEPTA goes on strike for contract disputes. When environmental groups lobby and put the squeeze on politicians. When car and oil companies do the same thing.
.... then I am going to just pull my office from there so I don't get screwed..."
Frankly - it is also business. Billy probably was thinkign "if these guys want to screw me over with their
I mod down so you can mod up. Your welcome.
Sports team to city: "Build us a new stadium or we're moving somewhere that will."
Random Corporation to state: "Give us tax breaks or we'll have to take our business elsewhere."
There are other examples I'm sure, but suffice it to say that this is not something new and nobody gets in an uproar when other companies do it.
rooooar
Oh, like either of those is better: Hitler or Abba.
Do not touch -Willie
As for the bribing bits, it's all quite nicely documented for you on opensecrets.org (For the USA anyway.) You can go there and tell exactly which politician is in which company's pocket. The extortion side is a little less well documented, probably because it has to be used so infrequently. Once you give a politician a nice fat check, they usually stay bought, or they don't stay in the business long.
The US Congress made a halfhearted attempt to limit the amount of the bribes that big companies could give them, but I'm not seeing as how that's doing a whole lot of good. Probably because the attempt was halfhearted. After all, if you had a nice source of suitcases of money, you wouldn't really want to stop it, even if a cute little puppy or an orphan occasionally had to get burned alive to make it happen. Would you?
Anyway the upshot of all of that is that if we really want the current status quo to change, we'll have to make some draconian new laws on what corporations can do, and we'll have to draw them up in tidy paragraphs so they don't conflict with... The Constitution. And the only way that's going to happen is if everyone gets riled up and stays riled up enough to vote any politicians who resist out of office. And I don't see that happening.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
this is not true 'information' that is being given to the danish minister, but nothing less than extortion. Thus illegal and punishable similar to a coup d'état and other democracy threatening actions.
Sad enought, Poland will probably step under pressure from big ones (such as M$, Siemens and others). They made the same blackmail to our prime minister and probably he was not the man with hard balls.
I'm so much pissed with it.
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
Unfortunately, multi-national corporations have a great deal to gain with such practices, and their expected value is actually fairly high, even taking into account the legal fees, fines and embarrassment of getting caught now and again.
Unfortunately, the public, as compared to the vested business interests, is generally apathetic, since they have less to lose individually, than the corporations. This means that the corporations will merely continue their efforts until the public loses interest and they succeed in converting their selfish desires into government policy. This may take years, but they have the focus to see it through to the end.
In the particular case, software patents, there has been public outcry in Europe against them and the politicians have generally listened. Each time we think the issue is close some massive business entity resurrects the discussion, in spite of the public opinion. Obviously this hasn't yet met with success and now Microsoft is attempting some innovative (sic) and repulsive tactics.
What should we as individuals do?
- Spread the word and name names. Tell your friends,
your co-workers, you boss, or even better, your
neighbor the elected official, that Microsoft has
attempted to co-opt the democratic process in
Denmark.
- Wite letters to newspapers, journals, and elected
officials explaining why software patents are a
bad idea in Europe.
- Vote with your feet. Stop buying/using products
from companies that engage in unfair
business and political practices.
- Donate to the EFT, Groklaw and other similar
institutions.
- Remain vigilant.
If you dont know much about the arguments surrounding software patents, have a look at: http://www.nosoftwarepatents.comNote: I'm not against big business, provided they play fair. Unfortunately, my experience has been that large corporations tend to use their size advantages in ways that make it difficult for smaller (and in many cases more innovative) business to compete. It's up to the small guy to fight back (in a fair way :).
---- It won't be as bad as you fear or as good as you hope, but it will take twice as long as you plan.
You can choose between any of this government.
"Doesn't anyone know what that means any more?
/. people are positively communist int heir willingness to have government run their world.
You do realize where you are posting right? And who this is about (MS?)? Of course this is true. Just like it's true that when you buy a MiniMac god gives the world a cute new puppy.
So, a company may decide to no longer operate a subdivision because the governments of the country it is in tool hostile action.
Sounds completely reasonable to me.
it is AMAZING how many
--> Fight tyranny and repression.... read
It isn't illegal, but it is arrogant, not really haggling - more like classic carrot and stick. At the very least this kind of strong arm move could backfire and encourage the other party to determine how fast they could re-employ those 800 people in the native software industry, maybe even one based on OSS. That would not only resulting in lost business for MS, but give the Danish government additional incentive to resist software patents.
[Set Cain on fire and steal his lute.]
No more computers.
Show me a patent that applies to "computers" in such a way as to prevent any general-purpose computer being produced without infringing on that patent.
No more internet.
The Internet is not patented, or indeed patentable.
No more internet routers.
TCP/IP is not patented.
No more TV.
TV was the end result of many different people's work. Thanks to patents, only the person "first past the post" reaps monetary benefit from that work. Golly, that's fair...
No more radios.
The first patent on radio was eventually overturned, about 50 years after the original invention. Granting that patent was kind of pointless, wasn't it?
No more books.
Books cannot be patented, unless you've come up with a new and exciting way of gluing together cardboard and paper.
No more artwork.
Artwork cannot be patented.
No more music.
Music cannot be patented.
I guess you could buy a guitar and start to sing... but wait. Who's going to make a guitar?
Guitars were invented years before patents even existed. Are you suggesting retroactive patents now?
The value in that company isn't in the existing products, its in the knowledge of the people to make next generation products.
you seem to be missing a point. the value of this company is in its revenue and ability to pay the wages of 800 people. it may not seem like a lot, but its also lost tax revenue as well. this adds up.
sure, that talent will go elsewhere and get absorbed into the rest of the economy, somewhere, somehow, hopefully. but the point gates is making: this won't be fun for anyone.
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
The danish Social Democrats just denounced Gates' threats in a press release. The social democrats control whether software patents have a majority or not in the danish parliament.
Any sufficiently advanced libertarian utopia is indistinguishable from government.
The basic problem with this charity is that it always seems to be tied in to Microsoft product purchases. Many of these same school systems might well be forced to expend cash and pay fines for not having sufficient number of licenses.
Charity? Or simply another <I><B>sharp</B></I> business practice?
Aside from the argument being thin enough for me to think you're probably trolling, no, he's not particularly a self-made man. His father was a seriously rich lawyer and his mother was on several large corporate boards - can't find who, but I'm sure there was a family link to the IBM board that got MS-DOS considered for the PC. So, while he's improved on his start, I hardly think he qualifies being described as straight up self-made.
Greg
(Inside a nuclear plant)
Aaaarrrggh! Run! The canary has mutated!
Of course, that would imply a degree of scheming and underhanded forethought that would be impolitic to imply in this august forum.
Forget diamonds, copyright is forever.
Maybe someone should mail Microsoft's software development competitors in Denmark a big Microsoft box conatining yellow armbands with the words "EU Software Patents" printed on them.
You see, sw patents are only a problem when you are starting up new business - if you are IBM (or Microsoft to some extent) already, then they are useful.
My point here being, that software patents are only 'stifling' if you intend to start up new business.
And you are only likely to realize this, if you realize that starting up new businesses is important for an economy to grow.
Back in the late '90s our government found out that Denmark should be a country of innovation, a high-tech economy so to speak - we cannot compete with china on industrial production costs anyway. So, in order to "boost" research they shut down the only government super computing center we had, sending researchers elsewhere to go beg for computing power.
To further strenghten our position as a nation of researchers and scientists, we have one of the most expensive but crappiest primary school systems in the western world - which is one thing, but the fact that anyone refuses to do anything about it underlines how important it is to the government to really position our country with a high-tech economy. Or not...
Copyright law was changed last year, to make it illegal to use or develop debuggers and disassemblers. I wrote to the minister in change of that decision letting him know that I and anyone else developing software would be breaking that law. Got some bullshit answer back which didn't address the problem, so now I'm practicing my right to "civil disobedience" every day on the job, along with everyone else in the software business in this country...
800 jobs is money right here right now. "Stifling" is in the eye of the beholder. For a government which is determined to break any initiative or start-up business, either indirectly thru neglect or directly thru law, it seems like it is not such a tough decision to make.
Oh, and add a photo opportunity with Bill and it's a done deal.
>>Stop putting all evil on Bill's shoulders. Actually it should be there. Gates, being the richest man in the world in charge of the biggest technology company in the world is in the unique position and power to influence many other sectors of the economy. This also makes him a role model. So yes the evil does rest on his shoulders just as mistakes in government are placed on the President's shoulder's even when its actually the House, Senate, Generals, or all a mix of them all really responsible. Also you're setting a strawman arguement. In this instance Gates is clearly being unethical and shows how eccentric he's getting. Bottom line his company should have been actually punished when found guilty of monopolistic practices by breaking it into pieces like Standard Oil was. But it wasn't, it just got a wrist slap showing us how corrupt our government has become because it wants his money. -- That's how powerful Gates is - he influences and bullies governments.
If Gates gets fired there is always room for him at the pentagon.
While everybody else is discussing the subtle distinction between blackmail and extortion, now might be a good time to revisit the idea of whether projects like Mono really ought to feel comfortable about Microsoft's stance on patents. Any astroturfing mono fanboys care to comment about how benevolent Microsoft is? Why would they extort like this if they didn't want the leverage?
The "cue the foo posts in 3, 2, 1..." posts will commence with no subsequent foo posts in 3, 2, 1...
Navision was a successful company bought by Microsoft (last year if my memory serves me right, but could be wrong about that). Gates (and Microsoft) hasn't created it and even less sustained it. Their own work did that.
You mean the ones Gates himself employs?
Yes. As so many have already explained, this is a disgusting threat because where software is produced doesn't have any correlation to legal protection it has in market in which it sells.
This sort of thing should be illgal and land the people involved in serous jail time for attempting to take control and/or influence a governments elected by the people. It's a crime and I want any CEO/Manager/Owner of such activates to take social responsibility for their actions.
Read the whole act here: http://www.stolaf.edu/people/becker/antitrust/stat utes/sherman.html
You are allowed to restrain trade with a country, you just can't monopolize it. (see section 2)
You completely misunderstood the source, and the concept of anti-trust law. Nothing in anti-trust law says you can't STOP doing business in a country.
I am not one to usually defend Bill Gates, but *perhaps* MS determined that it could not run a profitible business there if the directive passed. Sort of like when the US outlawed child labor, so now textiles need to be made in other countries....
Just an idea for how the Danish Govt might choose to react to this 'threat'
1) Cancel all govt microsoft contracts, convert everything to FOSS.
2) Use the money saved to employ the 800 laid of developers. Start a govt funded company to support FOSS development and porting to Danish local requirements.
3) Make use of the new govt funded company to support the new all-FOSS govt infrastructure
4) Let the new company grow into a commercially viable unit in it's own right, and generate income into Denmark from providing services to other EU states for FOSS migration.
Nett effect - saves a load of money leaving the country (MS Taxes), creates long term local employment, generates incoming coming into the country.
Too easy. They should call his bluff I reckon.
> But working for Bill Gates' company is not a natural human right
Carly, I do hope you're not using HP computers to post this, right?!
All GPL.
Yeah, the missiles had only 10 minutes to touchdown in Denmark. You americans would have had lived all of 20 minutes longer. We were so much braver than you.
Anyways, we were not scared enough of the soviets. US nukes were all that kept the poor polish grunts off our beaches, but did we want any of them in our country? No. NO! NO! (Huge protests etc. etc.)
Any sufficiently advanced libertarian utopia is indistinguishable from government.
>One bidder contacts you and tells you he really needs the item you're auctioning...
I didn't stop the auction.
But I checked out his story and sent him another one at cost.
It's called humanity.
You can't talk about Wikipedia's flaws on Wikipedia
I'll follow your analogy...
An automaker asking a government for financial incentives before building a plant is one thing.
An automaker asking a government to pass a law drastically reducing car safety measures before building the plant is quite a different thing.
An automaker, already having a plant, threatening the government to close that plant unless the car safety law is passed is yet another thing.
All these situations can be called negotiations. Yet they are very different morally and legally. I sincerely hope you can see the differences.
It would be nice to be sure of anything the way some people are of everything.
It isn't extortion or blackmail. It's called leverage, and it isn't illegal.
First, this isn't "leverage" the way that term is used in legal businesses, where it refers to a particular kind of debt financing (taking a second mortgage on your house to launch your new business is leveraging the business with your homeowner's equity). You are getting confused by a mafia euphemism for extortion.
It is true that this probably wasn't actually blackmail (unless there was some kind of pressure put on the Danish officials to keep quiet about the offer). It is therefore probably technically legal (I would expect as much from Bill Gates-- not because I think he's honest but because I think he is very shrewd). But if it happened the way it was reported, this was extortion and is definitely immoral (even if legal).
European copyright law should be developed based on the merits of the arguments for and against its details. Bill Gates has alledgedly used a threat of economic harm to a participant to try to influence this process. That would be extortion, and is definitely immoral even if though it may have been done in a legally defensible way.
This happens all the time, Microsoft beating up on "the little guy" altho its odd to be thinking of entire countries as "the little guy" now. But really, just like everything else, they'll get away with this, they'll keep progressing until they're stopped, which likely won't happen anytime soon. And to tell the truth, I actually like their products, it's just the corporate ethics i have a problem with
nobody's perfect
As a Slashdot Libertarian I'll weigh in on this one...
But working for Bill Gates' company is not a natural human right, so what is objectionable about this? Just because he is wealthy (and he's a self-made man, remember), those 800 people suddenly have control over his finances?
800 people have jobs under the false pretenses that they're actually needed for more than leverage. The government isn't supposed to be dicking around with companies, IMHLibertarianO. This is an example of a company dicking around with a government to try and make it dick around with other companies. I think that makes Gates a dick twice over and someone's getting unfairly screwed.
Do you have a moral imperative to stop the auction and sell the item to the beggar at the cost he wants? If not, why does Gates?
The item has already been sold. Now the seller is trying to get the buyer to take it up rear from him or else he'll take back what he sold you. He didn't tell you he'd be making that ultimatum beforehand so now you're stuck between returning the item you're already using or taking it up the rear.
People do not have a right to be employed by Bill Gates, and if it will be such a disaster economically if he pulls out of an area you'd think the politicians would be bending over backwards to suit his demands -- seeing as how their livelihood is apparently utterly dependent on Mr. Gates' presence in their area of political control.
It's not going to destroy their economy to lose 800 jobs. It *is* going to be annoying to Denmark in specific. The option that Gates is offering is that instead all of the EU is going to share the nuisance. Overall, the politicians should be ignoring Gates, but Socialism does funny things to the relationship between companies and governments.
Direct away from face when opening.
Those people's continued employement should strictly be a matter of the company producing a reasonable profit and doing well in the market. Not leverage for someone ( who already has a lot ) to get more.
No, they have no "right" to be employed. But extortion is not a right either.
And shouldnt the Danish people and goverment decide Danish policy? How is extortion to attempt to control a foreign nation's policy a good thing?
emt 377 emt 4
The corporation doesn't have a natural right to make a profit, nor use the roads that taxpayers pay for...
Hm... I don't recall ever seeing a corporation driving down the road. But hey, at least the person driving that truck gets paid by a corporation, is able to make a profit from the work, and pays the taxes on that profit which is used in part to fund the road on which he drives.
But interesting argument you've got there. I suppose you (and the mods, apparently) consider it insightful to state that a non-human entity doesn't have human rights?
Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
CEO Ballmer: I have your approval to proceed, then my lord?
Chairman Gates: Proceed. Wipe them out . . . All of them.
"Thanks to Richard Stallman and his GNU Project, Linus Torvalds, and thousands and thousands of good-hearted and skilled programmers who cared enough to give the world some very fine software, you actually do have a choice. "
In context, no grammatical confusion.
Actually, it's taken from M-W's definition of " lobby," the verb, but it fits eerily in...
Thank you for providing such a clear, coherent, well thought out argument for the legalization of racketeering, extortion and blackmail. You must be most proud of yourself.
Chuck
I know that my parents did and they are struggling to grasp a world where they don't have a right to a job guaranteed as hard as you would struggle to live in a world you cannot open your mouth whenever and however you well damn please.
If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
Thing is it's not even politicians who are pushing this thing forward, it's the European Commission who I certainly don't remember ever electing to do anything.
Now we know where these deathless new EU SW patent proposals come from: Redmond, Washington. The next step is to look into how Microsoft pressured the treacherous Dutch representative last year to misrepresent Dutch policy by pushing the patents, and the Spanish rep last week when they wavered. Every rep who pushed EU patents must be investigated for connection to this Microsoft operation, which is no doubt joined by other global IP giants. If the EU doesn't stand up to these foreign (and perhaps domestic) corporate attacks on their soverignty, they'll be a coroprate feifdom as wholly owned a subsidiary as is the US.
--
make install -not war
Not that I hate America, but he really is a sucker for everything american. And a handpuppet of Bush.
He pretty much bends over without blinking so I am quite sure that he will go for the patent law and not against.
You see, even though MS has 35 bln. in the bank and a market cap of half a trillion - the euro economey puts out at least 6 trillion per year. With pure market forces pushing Linux to the front, MS doesn't have a hells chance in Europe unless they can cut it off with patents.
So in truth, it's not that MS dominates, it's that they can't compete and are taking desperate measures to stop the bleeding.
Linus... I .... am... your... FATHER!
Correct. The essence of Gates' statement, one he has every right to make I might add, is 'Do what I say and nobody gets hurt.'
http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/fraud/fcpa/fcpastat. htm
Got Code?
In danish news it is reported that the Govt. does take that threat seriosly and are considering how to actively support software patents. ...yet another thing that this govt. just don't get (recently re-elected, they do have a track record of four years with a lot of really stupid/nasty stuff going on, yet it seems just above 50% of the population preferred that they should stay). Anybody know a nice country one can move to ?
I guess we have no grounds to ojbect or complain about anything unless it violates a natural human right
Sure you do. And you do too. Complaining does not constitute an initiation of force (unless it elevates into harrassment or threat). The act of complaining is therefore moral and just, as is any instance of voluntary association. You don't, however, have a moral right to invoke force (government) unless natural law has been clearly violated. (The only moral use of force is in defense of force, according to natural law.)
The corporation doesn't have a natural right to make a profit
Sure they do. Any instance of voluntary association is moral and just according to natural law. The act of trade is, by definition voluntary (if it wasn't voluntary it wouldn't be trade, it would be theft, fraud, or extortion). Perhaps you are confusing the right to chase after profit (voluntary) with some artifical, government-imposed "guarantee" of profit (involuntary)?
Of course, the vast majority of people in the world today do "approve" the initiation of force (offensive, rather than defensive force) and indeed, most can't imagine any other solution. So in the end, us anarchists and our philosophy of zero-aggression are relegated to lunatic status, people keep trying to "solve" problems with force rather than voluntary association, and the world remains violent and unjust.
You took his stuff. You pound him.
Now, I'm not saying they DIDN'T do it, it sounds like something a business would do. But this piece of "journalism" is not enough to condemn Microsoft for anything. That is by far the poorest execuse for a news article I've ever seen and nothing in it should be taken as fact.
Fair enough, but I can assure this story is the real deal. Your danish is perhaps a little rusty, but here are some links anyway:
http://www.borsen.dk/dagens-nyheder/?ids[]=70135
http://politiken.dk/
It is worth noting, that the source for the story, is none other than Microsofts chief lawyer in Danmark, Marianne Wier, who was present at the meeting between Bill Gates and the danish Prime Minister Anders F. Rasmussen.
The Dutch have retained the vestiages of their early modern empire and are the largest investors of capitol in the US (The Far East still holds the most US debt but the Dutch hold the most US assets)
If I had to make a guess, I'd say one of two things actually happened - First BillG may have threatened to MOVE the company, which isn't quite the same as firing them all but it just about as bad morally. Unfortunately, companies do this all the time, especially manufacturing companies - hell, its half the reason auto makers have unions.
The second option is that he was planning on axing the workforce for valid business reasons and offered to throw them a bone and keep it open if the PM supported software patents.
Neither is too many shades better than the extortion reported in the article, but both are common tactics in the business world. Personally, I think we should say screw them all to all the companies that try to pull off BS stunts like this. Starting with Microsoft.
So Gates thinks he can coerce the Danish government with 800 jobs? Well Denmark can retaliate by withholding LEGO from the US! Oh the horror!
Sure, come down hard on Microsoft for monopolistic practices, lack of security or bundling in Windows Media Player but please don't force me, as a government, from not being able to make a free choice...
Give me the facts, tell me how good OSS is and how crooked Microsoft are and let me decide which products I do and do not want to buy or support.
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
I wonder how long until our right to vote is transferred to our employers ...
Interestingly... could you imagine Microsoft (or any other large corporate entity) pulling this stunt on the Chinese government? This is a hardball power play, and while 800 jobs might have a marginal affect on the local economy, frankly China (or Denmark for that matter) could easily give Microsoft the finger and eat the loss.
All of these companies are playing a 'divide and conquer' game to foster a legislative and regulatory 'rush to the bottom' between states here in the US and nation-states in the nascent EU, or between smaller nations throughout the world. Their plan has worked spectacularly here in the US where States are weak and the federal government policy makers (in both political parties) are ideologically in agreement with corporate-elite class. But unlike the US, many member states in the EU have a long history of labor organization and revolt, with the populace well educated and rightly suspicious of corporate power gone awry.
Whether the EU populace cares enough about the issue of software patents is of less importance than whether the citizens of various EU member states begin organizing across old national boundaries like the private concerns have already done. Organized labor and citizenry should provide a check against both government and corporate usurpation of political power regardless of popular will. Where decentralized organization and policy-making have failed, the countries have fallen into various states of authoritarianism, from outright totalitarianism to repressive centralized republics. Thus, our vote becomes worthless if we can't set the policy agenda.
China is an example of a totalitarian government with the power to check large multinationals like Microsoft, but without any measure of democratic freedom or citizen involvement in the political process. The US is an example of a republic which has been centralizing power by dismantling organized labor in order to foster pro-multinational business policies, and in the process destroying traditional democratic freedom for its citizenry. We citizens in the US risk being as marginalized as the Chinese or Russian citizenry, though political rhetoric from our leaders would never admit as much. The EU is the best example of disjointed patchwork of nations, some of which still foster the goal of decentralized political power spread among the populace. Much of this due to the lessons of the French Revolution still reverberating through their culture.
One thing I think is certain: sovereignty is collapsing all across the world as nations fold into one another to form power checks against corporations and other larger nations. While the collapse of the old Soviet Union may be seen as a counter-example against this trend, looking at Eastern European states requesting entry into the EU or NATO, or Middle Eastern bordering states like Turkey requesting entry into the EU, and we see a pattern of centralizing power as a check against the United States. That is a political and military alliance, however it also has the effect of creating a power-base to check against corporate tyranny as well. The outcome may well be a collapse to three or four world governments as a result. Whether those governments will turn democratic and spread power among the citizenry or centralize their power base is the real question.
The question becomes: where is the natural power balance between nation, corporation, and citizen in a free state?
Navision historically has sold its wares in europe. So patent/copyright laws in europe are very much relevant in europe.
Also, the denmark office was an aquisition which afaik is a separate company, Microsoft Business Solutions, that may be incorporated separately in Denmark for historical reasons.
let's be clear - I definitely think gates is saying something along the lines of "if you're not going to make an effort to protect software, i wont make an effort to continue investing in your economy". That seems like a reasonable thing to say, doesn't it ?
My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
Our goverment paies you money if you cant find a job provided you want a job. Heck they will even help you find one.
That is what we get for paying 50% in tax.
Freedom or George Bush
A violation of business ethics, perhaps, but certainly not immoral. The relationship between an employer and employee is voluntary. Unless the voluntary contract specifically states that Gates will never fire or lay off his employees (which it doesn't, because that would be economically impossible), then it is entirely moral for Gates to do so. So you can claim a violation of business ethics, but you can't claim an initiation of force (immoral association).
Of course, government is so entangled in the market nowadays that it's not this clear and straightforward. Is Gates receiving some benefit from government which is ultimately provided not through voluntary association but force? If so, then there is no clear answer, because whoever "wins", wins only at the expense of somebody else's right to voluntary association.
You took his stuff. You pound him.
That story is false, and you would have know that if you followed the link the grandparent posted.
As for not talking ultimatus it was the danish people who helped the Jews - not the goverment.
Freedom or George Bush
"Rubbish. I'll decide what I do and don't find objectionable, thank you. I find threatening people's livelihoods in order to bully their governments into enacting the legislation you want to be very highly objectionable."
Yeah, but is that because the word "Microsoft" is in that sentence? What if it were IBM? Apple?
"Derp de derp."
The question if its truth or not will depend, for me at least, on if a real newspaper takes it on... which I highly doubt.
-Vendal Thornheart
The no so veiled thread to cough up some tribute or new laws or we'll axe jobs is pretty standard. Since governments are 'responsible' to the people governed, while the corporations are only reaponsible to their shareholders, corporations can look at the small picture, and even intentionally plan to harm the public good in order to increase market share/profits/the general operating environment.
Add in the ability to travel across political boundries at will adding or withdrawing economic support based on the short term self interest a small entity, and you end up with the kind f situation descrobed in the article.
"Repeal environmental clean-up laws or peopel will gewt laid off"; "Build is a new stadium with public funds, or we'll move the team to another city"; "Give our for profit company huge government tax and hadnouts or we'll move to another region, or another country - and heck, we might move there anyway after we've grabbed the cash".
These are all pretty standard business practices these days.
-------- In Soviet Russia, "Soviet Russia" sigs hate Slashdot.
one of the most famous ex-employees of Microsoft Denmark: HKH Kronprinsessen, aka Her Royal Highness the Crown Princess of Denmark
10 ?"Hello World" life was simple then
I seem to recall some novel set in the future where there existing a small set of mega-corps. The government couldn't do anything to them because 'they might raise the price of cheese 5 cents and crater the economy'.
There will ALWAYS be someone who is willing to use force to obtain the selfish desires that society as a whole refuses to cede him. But any true anarchist society will be very slow to respond
Don't confuse anarchism with pacifism. Anarchism only forbids the initiation of force; reasonable force used in self-defense is entirely moral according to natural law. Also consider that anarchism does not promise 100% morality and justice; it promises the closest thing to 100% morality and justice.
You took his stuff. You pound him.
"The corporation doesn't have a natural right to make a profit"
No, but it does have an obligation by definition to do so. If moving those 800 out of of Denmark made MS more profitable, Gates would have an valid justification for doing it. He doesn't have to, of course.
If there's anything unethical about this, its that the patent situation and those 800 jobs have nothing to do with each other and Gates justification for termination the 800 jobs appears to have nothing to do with the profitability or operation of MS. It appears totally arbitrary (it may not be, he may have decided to close down that unit months ago and is offering to reverse a decision he already made, we'll never know).
But corporations are also taxpayers by definition.
In the end, what MS is doing is unpleasant and well beneath a company as successful as them, but they aren't doing anything wrong. I would expect anyone taking a job with MS or Apple or any company willing to constantly and strongly push the edges of their envelope to be aware that their job is far from secure.
If you don't play my way, i'll take my marbles and go home
Greed!
The man is sick.
* Carthago Delenda Est *
The princess undoubtly has friends/acquaintences who still work at Navision, and more importantly, must be seen as protecting them. Now that this is out in the open, the Danish PM can't just backdown.
BG better back down & fast ("I was misinterpreted") or the Danish Parlement will pass a Navision Act (Whereas viability of Navision has been threatened by it's foreign owner to interfere in domestic politics, all material actions of Navision require review by the Dept of Labor).
From Ritzau (Danish news agency): Statsministeren afviser, at Microsoft skulle have truet med at lukke Navision og flytte 800 arbejdspladser til USA. Statsminister Anders Fogh Rasmussen (V) afviser, at stifteren af verdens største softwarevirksomhed, Bill Gates, skulle have truet ham med at lukke Navision i Danmark og flytte de knap 800 udviklere bag Danmarks største software-succes til USA. - Det har han ikke gjort på noget møde med mig. Jeg kan slet ikke bekræfte den udlægning, slet ikke. Det har vi slet ikke været inde på. Nej, siger Anders Fogh Rasmussen til Ritzau. Statsministerens afvisning kommer, efter Børsen tirsdag kunne berette om Bill Gates' trussel, som skulle være kommet på et møde i november med Anders Fogh Rasmussen samt økonomi- og erhvervsminister Bendt Bendtsen (K) og videnskabsminister Helge Sander (V).
Anders Fogh is saying that Bill Gates has not told him about any plans of moving Navision to the USA.
you're right. being employeed by a particular individual or corporation is not a natural human right. however, once an individual is employeed by a particular individual or corporation that individual has the right to be treated as a free human being and not a hostage. in other words, should the aforementioned individual actually be terminated it must be for legitmate reasons relating to his or her job performance (not completing objectives, laziness, inappropriate office behavior, etc..) if what ever human resources entity that is responsible for those 800 employees can prove that every last one of them is an imcompetent worker, then they should, by all means, be fired. this right to work free from arbitrary termination may not be reflected in law (IANAL), but i do maintain that it is a natural human right.
I don't subscribe to the knee-jerk anti-corporatism that often floats around here, but it is fair to say that Microsoft, being a business corporation, is limited by its charter to act like a business. When Bill Gates uses his charge as a corporate officer to meddle in politcs (beyond that in which Microsoft has a direct fiduciary interest like negotiating a tax abatement or some such), it is tantamount to running a political campaign on the company dime. The stockholders haven't given permission for it, so such behavior constitutes malfeasance.
Now if Gates threatened to buy the company from Microsoft for twice what it was worth out of his own personal fortune (he would have to set up some sort of blind trust to do this properly since he has a role as both buyer & seller in such a transaction), and then lay everyone off, then that would clear him of malfeasance. We could still call him obnoxious for that, though.
"company is in its revenue and ability to pay the wages of 800 people"
Not at all! The market (Europe) provides the revenue!! As long as Europe is not poor their will be capital to tap that revenue/market. The people sacked will have a leg up over new people in the new company, so they will have a commercial advantage.
In other words, MS exits Europe, someone else hires their staff and makes the next product themselves. MS loses that market because it would have to take a step back and relearn the lost skills.
a government that does not give in to corporate interests. Now if the U.S. could follow suit.
The above post pretty well sums up the cloud cuckoo land that libertarians live in, and shows why I am not one. The principal of one man, one vote is made meaningless when a multi-billionaire can extort a government to produce the laws he wants. It is especially ironic when you consider that of the 800 employees who are programmers, most of them no doubt oppose software patents themselves.
On the other hand I understand the view espoused by (among others) certain founders of the USA who felt that enumerating basic human rights also limits you to those rights, just as describing proper behavior in law means that you must permit anything not explicitly proscribed, even if it is harming others, or just taking advantage of them. For example, Nike would have a somewhat lower ROI if it paid people a living wage, or perhaps even a bit more than a living wage, but it would still make incredible amounts of profit. Why are they allowed to essentially subject people to slavery? Arguably they're not hurting anyone, and they are employing people who would otherwise be unemployed, but why on earth do we allow them to pay the people so little when there is no reason to? It's not like we can't live without their products.
By the same token, we have created a system of law to allow a ficticious entity to own property, make statements, et cetera. Thus we have granted these entities the right to attempt to make a profit. Since we have done it with law, we have granted them the right to do all of it in any way permitted by law, whether it is moral or not.
A corporation thus has as much right to make a profit as you have to pursue happiness.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
It was 1939, I believe, when corporations obtained the same "rights" as citizens.
Slashdot is proof that Sturgeon's Law applies to mankind.
Those people can still work on software that won't even be sold in their country, which is what's wrong with this whole thing. That is the basis under which I would prevent Microsoft from doing this; if they bought the company JUST to use it for blackmail, then fuck 'em. They're doing something wrong.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Danish quote from http://www.borsen.dk/dn/70135:
7 74
Hvis jeg skal beholde mit udviklingscenter i Danmark, kræver det, at der kommer en afklaring på rettighedsspørgsmålet. Ellers flytter jeg det til USA, hvor jeg kan beskytte mine rettigheder, sagde Bill Gates ifølge Microsofts chefjurist Marianne Wier.
Translation by native:
"If I must keep my development center in Denmark it requires that the question of intelectual property is clearified. Otherwise I will move it to USA, where I can protect my rights" Said Bill Gates according to Microsofts chief layer Marianne Wier."
NOTE: Bill Gates does not explicitly say that software patents must be permitted (although he probably means it) but that the situation must be clarified.
OT: Everyone - pro and con - aggrees that the current situation is unclear, the disagreeing is about how to clear up things. The current proposal pretty much alignes legislation with US.
And an extra quote by the minister of science which is just as scary:
Original in danish from http://www.berlingske.dk/business/artikel:aid=540
Vi oplever gang på gang, at viden er meget let at flytte med, og derfor skal man hele tiden være opmærksom på, at et selskab som Microsoft også kan flytte viden fra Danmark rundt i verden. Når en så stor virksomhed placerer sin største udviklingsafdeling uden for USA i Danmark, og så følger op med endnu flere investeringer, er det noget, vi fra det offentlige skal honorere.
Translation by native:
"We continuoulsy experience that knowledge is easy to move and therefore one must continuously be alert that a big company like Microsoft can also move knowledge from Denmark to the rest of the world. When such a large company choosed to place it's largest development center outside USA in Denmark, and follows up by further insvestments, then this is something, we from the public sector must hoerate"
Or, "of course we'll do whatever mr. Gates think is right."
Cheers, Erik
The point you're making doesn't apply. You're right; those 800 people shouldn't have control over his finances. But that's not what's going on. There's no way Bill Gates is going to abandon Europe as a market. The income, both actual and potential, is far too enormous. Whether or not software patents end up existing in the EU, it'll be a market for Microsoft.
The way the law goes won't significantly affect their actions. He didn't say he'd CLOSE the company; he said he'd fire its current employees and do their function with different people in a different country. What he's saying is, if the law doesn't fall the way he wants, instead of pulling out of Europe, he'll continue to sell stuff but punish those 800 people and then blame it on the Danish government.
It's not 800 people playing around with Bill Gates' finances; it's Bill Gates playing around with EU finances and laws.
Ah, yes. The defense of the school-yard bully. "I'm bigger than him, so I should be able to beat him up if I want, the little pansy."
Nothing wrong with that at all. No-siree. Nothing wrong. In fact, it is so *right*, I am in awe of its rightness.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
Danish article :)
Rough translation (being a native speaker
Fogh denies that Gates have threatened him
The prime minister denies that Microsoft should have threatened to close Navision and move 800 employees to the US.
Prime minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen (Liberals) denies that the founder of the worlds larges software company, Bill Gates, supposedly threatened him with closing Navision in Denmark and move the approximately 800 developers behind Denmarks biggest software success to the US.
- He hasn't done that in any meeting with me. I can in no way confirm that description, not at all. It is not even something we discussed. No, Anders Fogh Rasmussen tells Ritzau.
The prime ministers denial comes after Børsen tuesday could report about Bill Gates' threat, which was supposed to have been made at a meeting in november with Anders Fogh Rasmussen along with the minister of the economy and business Bendt Bendtsen (Conservatives) and the minister of science Helge Sander (Liberals).
We do not live in the 21st century. We live in the 20 second century.
I used to admin a Navision db at the last place I worked at, here in Switzerland. I even did a training course at the Navison central in Lucerne. I aksed the boss of Navision Switzerland if they had ever had plans to port Navision to Linux, since Navision has been around a long time, from the DOS days, and also used to run on AIX and up until recently didn't even use the Windows GUI toolkit but had its own proprietry one. He said that Microsoft had told the various European regional CEO's of Navision that they were not even allowed to mention Linux, never mind think about porting it to Linux.
Navsision is quite popular in Europe as it's very easy to install and admin, has a huge set of CRM and ERP modules and is small enough to be useful for companies of up to around 250 people or so. Navision was quite clever in their set up in that they have a network of so called Navision Solution Centers in Europe where customisation specialists sit around and write add on modules and customise existing db scripts for local businesses. Imagine if MySQL or PostgreSQL had a similar setup!
This was Microsoft's way of gaining a foothold in Europe with the hope of competing eventually with SAP (Navision also has a larger db product called Axapta).
Navision being Danish helped because Denmark (and Holland) have very much become the USA's bitches in Europe in the last few decades, probably because they thought they could use the USA to balance out the weight of their larger European neighbours.
On the whole this has also worked out as Holland and Denmark are doing pretty well economically (They're also much smaller than their neighbours and thus much more flexible). The problem is that they have thus also become the USA's bitches to a certain extent in that their militaries and sections of their economies are more dependent on American good will than others. The JSF fighter fiasco where loads of countries get to pay for development of the fighter in return for industrial contracts which never materialised is a good example.
This open extortion (blackmail isn't really the word) of a Danish national politician is what they get for their trouble. Microsoft would not do the same in Germany, for example, as the resulting scandal would kill Microsoft in Germany. (Let's leave Germany's economic mess out of this for now)
This should be awake up call to Europeans that sucking up to large corporations, especially large foreign corporations, is like handing away your birthright in the long run.
(Actually, I suppose this applies to all countries, really)
Once you strip away the official MS hype, Bill Gates is anything but self-made. Yes, he's a very shrewd businessman who understands software, but he got two helpful head-starts:
1. His parents were millionaires. He wasn't some ordinary middle-class geek kid. His parents were able to send him to private school and buy him computer hardware that (back then) cost thousands of dollars.
2. Microsoft got the DOS contract through nepotism. Bill's mother was a friend of IBM's CEO, on many of the same charity and corporate boards. That's why IBM bought the OS from Microsoft, not the company that actually developed it.
And yes -- flashlights are torches. It's 99.9% certain that the person hearing the word will understand whether or not it's of the 'flaming' variety, based on context.
My father was a garage mechanic in college. For a while, they also had a british mechanic.
One of their problem customers came in complaining about a noise under her car. "Hold on, I'll go grab a torch and look."
She took off, and never bothered them again.
hawk
The problem here is that Microsoft is a monopoly with extreme influence. Different rules are needed for such an entity than a mom and pop operation.
gates is a amoral bag of slime? who would have guessed? pity the doj couldn't be bothered to, like, effectively punish him for ruining the domestic os and office software markets. oh well.
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
if the people get into a situation where they have no practical way to stop an oppressor, then we must defend ourselves against the oppressor.
Whether that oppressor is a government, a dictator, or a corporation.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I'll just stick my nose in here long enough to define "natural human right". There is only one natural human right, and it is the right to own property. It is a natural right because we are born owning ourselves. This right is a logical necessity from two axioms: humans are a limited resource, and all humans have equal rights. It is therefore not possible to consider any other way to distribute the ownership of human beings except for each person to own himself or herself.
The right to own oneself conveys all the other "rights" we customarily enumerate independently-- the right to be secure in our possessions; the right to enter into contracts, which gives us the right to own physical and intellectual property; the rights to speak the truth, assemble peacefully, and worship as we choose.
You're correct that corporations have no natural rights, but the owners of corporations do. Corporate property and privileges are a simple legal abstraction for the rights of those owners. You should be able to see that if I have the right to make a profit, it doesn't go away because I'm part of a group of people using a company name to do business.
. png
people need to be reminded of this kind of crap. On /., people get reminded when it's MS. On espn people get reminded when its a sports team, etc . . .
it is wrong, bad for the people and people nede to be reminded of it.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I cannot think of a single company that does not do this..
NFL franchisee owner comes to a city, and basically says, build us a new stadium or we will choose another town.
Companies get state and local gonverments to provide new zoning laws and tax cuts just so they won't relocate.
The bottom line is simple....if you own item A, and want item B, why can't you leverage off of item A? Because its immoral to use the legal tools you have?
So much for healthcare, where all those discounts are mainly driven off of the fact of leverage. 'We want drug X at price Y or we will have our memebers use a different drug!'
So much for unions...'We want benefit X or we will shutdown your company causing you to lose revenue'
While some these examples are extreme, why would a company want to do business in a country that will not look out for there best interests?
Like what?
Does a Christian soccer team even need a goalkeeper?
Our prime minister has officially denied that Bill Gates supposedly "threatened" him.
http://www.borsen.dk/dn/70178 - Det har han ikke gjort på noget møde med mig. Jeg kan slet ikke bekræfte den udlægning, slet ikke. Det har vi slet ikke været inde på. Nej, siger Anders Fogh Rasmussen til Ritzau. === That he did not do in any way with me. I can cannot confirm that assertion, not at all. THat is not something we discussed. No, says Anders Fogh Rasmussen to Ritzau.
I cross my sevens and dot my zeros (and I think that is European not USan) but how do you cross a `Z' --are you talking about a small or a large zed (or zee) and a straight or a curved one?
(Also, needless to say, I disagree with your argument that most people in America are not Americans. ;-) )
Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley
[This post is in the public domain (copyright-free) unless otherwise stated]
You mean the ones Gates himself employs?
Yes, exactly. It is not right or moral or ethical to threaten to sack people in order to gain leverage over others. It doesn't matter whether the person you're trying to pressure is the parent or the child or the government of the person you're threatening to fire, this is clearly wrong. If he doesn't like their work, fine, but if he just wants to use them as targets for pressuring others then that is vindictive, petty and WRONG.
To summarise the summary of the summary: people are a problem. ~ h2g2
Yes, his mother was personal friends with someone high up in IBM who was in a position to make the OS decision for the new IBM PC architecture. Right place, right time... through luck of birth.
Remember that he also has admitted to dumpster-diving for other people's code ("pirating") and he used time on university-owned mainframes after he'd dropped out of school.
http://philip.greenspun.com/bg/
How can we repay the Polish and Danish governments - in _real_ terms - involving patent-free software?
ideas, anyone?
This is a translation of the article at Børsen.
The founder of the world's largest software development company, Bill Gates, is now ready to close Navision in Denmark and move the approximately 800 developers behind Denmark's largest software success to USA.
This was made clear by the Microsoft boss when he met with prime minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen, minister of economy and business Bendt Bendtsen, and the minister of science Helge Sander in November.
The threat may become reality if parts of the IT business succeed in blocking a disputed EU directive about software patents that means the world for Microsoft to have passed. Approval of directive has repeatedly been delayed by the opponents' effective lobbying.
"If I am to maintain my development center in Denmark, the rights question must be settled. Otherwise I will move it to USA, where I can protect my rights," Bill Gates said according to Microsoft's chief legal counsel Marianne Wier, who also took part in the meeting with Anders Fogh Rasmussen.
Bill Gates acquired the Danish development department that is based on the fusion of the two IT companies Navision and Damgaard for about 12 billion kroner [approx $2.1 Bn] in 2002.
It has not been possible to get prime minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen to elaborate on how he reacted to the strong message from Bill Gates.
But even your own minister of social affairs sends her children to a school of the German minority in the south.
You can do something about it!!
"The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
I'm not a fan at all of Business setting policy or acting like this, i'm just stating a fact and being blunt about what business is.
It's horrible when tax dollars are used to subsidize places that don't do anything but collect profits for investors..
It's horrible what Microsoft stated..
It's not the US...
Losing your job doesn't mean risking bankruptcy if you become sick and there are very generous social programs in Denmark to ease the transition from one job to another. I'm not saying being laid off is not a big deal but it is lower on the Richter scale. So because the Danes are less dependent on corporate largesse, they can also more easily ignore this type of corporate blackmail (albeit at the cost of higher taxes for some...)
I find The Inquirer to be humorously ironic (bordering on hypocritical) since they bash Microsoft and even refer to them as "The Vole", yet they use IIS/ASP.Net. Their Linux/FOSS articles are sparse at best, which obviously means they know squat about the subject.
..if you package it all in one big bundle it could be cheaper?
"It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful." - Anton LaVey
In response to the "so what?" posts, let's play a game:
Suppose I, catbeller, in my civilian life, told a representative of Microsoft that I would personally unemploy, say, his family members by making a couple of phone calls, barring his cooperation in paying me a few million dollars, and signing a few contracts granting me much power.
How long until the armored black farmboys smash my door down with a ram? How long would I be in FMITA prison?
But Microsoft can do it. And no one is responsible. The corporation has civil rights as an individual, but has no civil obligations. Even if a crime is somehow proven, no one goes to jail, not for theft of billions, Enron style, or death of thousands, Dupont/Bhopal style.
All power and priviledge, no responsibilty for its own actions. The very thing that makes conservatives quiver: no consequences for individuals for their own actions. Fake corporate "persons" front for real people committing real crimes. The current setup is organized crime.
I've come to the conclusion that corporate personhood is a concept that has to be eliminated. People should answer for their crimes. If Bill made the decision to extort the Danes, then he should have to answer for it at a trial after extradition from the U.S. But in the real world...
But working for Bill Gates' company is not a natural human right, so what is objectionable about this? Just because he is wealthy (and he's a self-made man, remember), those 800 people suddenly have control over his finances?
Two things, first, William H. Gates III is completely self made? Ok. Sounds odd, but I'll let other's google this one.
Second: You are right, no one has a right to a particular job. However, rarely has threatening to take something away if criteria X is not met been considering a good bargining / trading tactic. Instead, the reverse, offering to do something for someone if criteria X is met has always been used.
For example: If you give me that house I'll give $100,000. That sounds like a normal deal. Whereas, saying "If you support this thing I don't want (i.e. software patents), I'll lay off 800 of your citizens" doesn't sounds like or represent normal business / trade activities. It sounds more along the lines of "Pay may $100 'insurance' to make sure your knees don't get broken." Although not as overtly illegal, it's the same tactic, and no one likes it being done to them.
Mike Scanlon
Think again.
Given that i _work_ in the Microsoft Business Solutions group, i can speak partially to why Navision was purchased.
I quite assure you, the logistical considerations when collaborating with co-workers that are 12h or more time shifted from you are not trivial, not to mention some language/cultural differences that take a while to work out.
The acquisition of navision, solomon, great plains, etc to form MBS was done because MS had no offerings to speak of in the business/finaicials/ERP space, not to gain employees in Denmark, Ohio, and North Dakota.
Besdies, micrsoft already has employees in most of the world, via its services and sales organization.
Your theory is completely ridiculous.
My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
I know he called that one. That doesn't make me feel any better though...
I think I should clarify that;
Debuggers are not illegal as such - they are only illegal to *use* for most purposes, with the notable exception of "research".
So you can argue we're bending the law more than breaking it, by using debuggers for, eh, debugging our own products. Same with disassemblers.
In any case, the law was not intended to outlaw software development entirely, it was only intended to outlaw software development that the MPAA did not endorse.
You know, when laws like this pass, I have this hope deep inside me, that the responsible politicians were bribed. Because, if they were bribed, there would be a rational explanation and a good reason (however immoral), as to how the law could pass.
If we assume that they were not bribed, that would make incompetence the only explanation. And that scares me - to think that someone with that amount of influence and responsibility could be incompetent to such levels. That scares me.
I hope simple greed did it. Unfortunately, I am most likely mistaken.
He didn't just try, apparently he succeeded very well!
Yesterday I watched the Danish news on TV. They told the story as you know it and a little more. Before moving on to todays next topic, the speaker assured everyone that of course the Danish government will 'fight for the jobs', meaning acting Bill Gates puppets in EU.
Thuesday the 27th there will be a demonstration in Bruxelles against the law MS (and other very large companies) are putting on us.
The minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen rejects that Bill Gates the founder of the biggest software company in the world have threatened him by closing Navision and moving the 800 developers of Denmarks greatest software succes to the US.
He hasn't done this on any meeting with me. I cannot confirm this way of putting, not at all. We haven't spoken about this, not at all, says Anders Fogh Rasmussen to Ritzau.
The rejection by the minister of state arrives after last tuesday when the newspaper "Børsen" told of a threat given by Bill Gates in November on a meeting with Anders Fogh Rasmussen, minister of economy and commerce Bendt Bendtsen and minister of science Helge Sander.
Apparently the threat were to become reality if parts of the IT-branch succeeded in blocking a controversial EU-directive about software patents, which has been delayed time after time by the effective lobby work of the opponents.
Sorry about my horrible english
Indeed, the broad acceptance of that premise is precisely why I looked up the Sherman Act. On that premise, the Sherman Act is plausibly applicable. Microsoft is attempting to use its overwhelming presence in the marketplace to further entrench that presence.
Seastead this.
All right, this is where I step in...
Just to get the preliminaries out of the way: I am a Dane and an historian. That means that, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, you should assume that I know what I'm talking about here.
Now, the parent of this thread presents several hypothetical ideas regarding this (although they look more like assertions, given the tone of the post):
1) One would expect Microsoft's ploy to "blow up in their faces".
2) The Danish PM Anders Fogh Rasmussen could respond by adopting non-MS software in government departments, as a retaliatory measure.
3) Anders Fogh Rasmussen might conceivably do so.
4) "Danes are not noted for caving in to agressive ultimatums".
Those are the points I'm going to address.
Short version:
No. Never in a million years. Forget it. End of story.
Long version:
The flights of fancy presented above represent a glorious mix of misinformed wishful thinking. While I suppose I ought to be quite flattered by the picture they paint of Danes, the fact is that they are, historically and contemporarily/politically, simply untrue.
Let me respond to each of these points individually:
1) One would expect Microsoft's ploy to "blow up in their faces".
Why? When has Microsoft (or any other major corporation) ever suffered a serious and permanent backlash from using strong-arm tactics? Small setbacks, yes - but what reason would Bill Gates have for believing that such an outcome is in any way likely?
2) The Danish PM Anders Fogh Rasmussen could respond by adopting non-MS software in government departments, as a retaliatory measure.
No. The Danish PM doesn't have that sort of comprehensive influence over government purchasing policies. Certainly, he could push for legislation in such matters, and instruct his cabinet to push for adoption of non-MS solutions within their ministries, but even if he were likely to do so (which he isn't, see point 3) the time frame for a switch-over would be long. The wheels of bureaucracy grind slowly.
3) Anders Fogh Rasmussen might conceivably do so.
No, he wouldn't. In fact, I don't hesitate to use the word "inconceivable" in that context. Rasmussen is a liberal-right ("liberal" in the Danish context meaning "laissez-faire capitalist") politician, and his entire political career is built on the conviction that free market forces and less government are the panaceas whereby all economic and social evils will be eradicated. In fact, I think he actually believes that. For ideological reasons alone, it is highly improbable that he would do so.
Leaving aside the ideology, Fogh Rasmussen would be a pretty irresponsible public official if he chose the path of outright confrontation. Such a move could (and would) be interpreted by the U.S. as a form of protectionism, and become the opening move in a trade war. No responsible PM would involve his country in such a situation. He'd be more likely to knuckle under.
4) "Danes are not noted for caving in to agressive ultimatums".
It pains me to say this, but this is relatively untrue. Although Denmark has sometimes resisted ultimatums (such as the British demand that Denmark surrender her navy in 1801), the fact is that any confrontation has eventually led to the Danes capitulating and giving the foe what he wanted. We didn't invent the term "appeasement", but by damn, we live it.
The parent post cites the Danish evacuation of the Jews in 1943 as an example of Danish refusal to cave in - but the evacuation was largely carried out by private individuals. The government was not involved in any significant degree. In fact, when Denmark was invaded in 1940, the government rapidly chose to capitulate and enter into a policy of cooperation with the Nazis. Honestly, the only reason Denmark was not treated as a collaborator nation after t
- Peter Ravn Rasmussen
I for one, welcome our American corporations.
So, please be quiet you goddamn coward.
Anyone who whines about being modded down should be.
Seastead this.
It took me about ten seconds after posting for a little niggling voice at the back of my mind to tell me that I'd better check my facts. The following paragraph in my preceding post is completely wrong:
Turns out, my memory had played a trick on me and I'd swapped a couple of names. True to the classic image of SS men, Werner Best was not a good guy. In fact, he was the individual who recommended implementing the "resolution of the Jewish problem in Denmark". Although his overall behaviour with regard to occupied Denmark was lenient, he certainly was not a good guy.
The actual hero of the day was Georg Duckwitz, of the German Embassy in Copenhagen. He was responsible for matters dealing with shipping, and he gave warning of the impending operation to Danish contacts.
*sigh*
Oh well, I suppose that mess-up sort of undermines my credibility - though I do think that I should get credit for issuing an immediate correction.
In any case, this little historical quibble has no bearing on the actual matter of Fogh Rasmussen's likely response to MS strong-arm tactics. But then again, you probably don't need me to tell you that politicians tend to cave in to pressure from big business...
- Peter Ravn Rasmussen
No, it's not extortion either, it's called lobbying. Pass the law X and we will invest money to create Y jobs in your electoral district, otherwise we'll have to take our business elsewhere. Happens all the time.
What are we going to do tomorrow night? The same thing we do every night, Pinky. Try to take over the world!
Prime Minister: Set fire to them?
Your hommage to Monty Python aside, it might interest you to know that this particular phrase echoes an event in Danish history when, yes indeedy, the Danish government caved in to strong-arm tactics.
In 1801, a British fleet under Admiral Hyde Parker and Admiral Horatio Nelson met the Danish fleet in the Battle of the Roadstead of Copenhagen. The battle was hard-fought on both sides, but the British were slowly gaining the upper hand. Not fast enough to satisfy Nelson, though. He was under pressure of time, having already been signalled by his superior, Admiral Hyde Parker, to cease hostilities - an order he (in)famously ignored, by placing the telescope to his blind eye, thus pointedly not seeing the signal flags.
Nelson sent a message to the Danish Prince Regent (the later Frederik VI) who was observing the battle from a vantage point near the harbour. The letter (which is in the Danish royal archives) told the Prince Regent in no uncertain terms that, unless the Danes immediately gave up the battle, Nelson would order the burning of the Danish batteries (ships being used as fixed gun emplacements, partially submerged in the harbourmouth) which had been taken as prizes during the battle.
The battery ships in question had been outfitted with British skeleton crews, and the Danish sailors had been chained belowdecks.
In effect, Nelson was offering the Prince a threat that he would murder several hundred helpless POWs, in the most vicious manner conceivable, if the Prince didn't give in.
Predictably, the Prince did.
- Peter Ravn Rasmussen
The first thing I thought of when I saw this topic was the Outland cartoon circa 1993 where Bill Gates is trying to convince a woman to go on a date with him.
"I'll buy you Norway."
Her response?
"Ok. But no kissing."
My other Slashdot ID is much lower.
because either (1) MSFT gets its way and the EC
approves software patents (and then MSFT does
the layoffs in 18 - 24 months), or (2) MSFT
doesn't get software patents in the EC (and then
KMSFT retaliates with immediate layoffs.)
The Danish government is in a position more
commonly called a "Hobson's Choice". And they
are essentially screwed either way. There is,
however, a third choice: (3) tell MSFT to get
stuffed regarding software patents, and then
fine MSFT another $500 Million USD for illegal
and immoral monopolistic practices. Seems that
with the third option, MSFT still has the Danes
over a barrel with their pants down around their
ankles, but they would at least get some
compensation out of the deal.
OH MY GOD! I can't believe that gates did that and oh my goodness am I typing on his tool for more money and oh my goodness aahhh!!!!!...
Oh, wait... it's from the National Inquirer? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.... Yea...
You have to remember, the National Inquirer also posted a story that George W. Bush announced that the moon was Russia's fault. It's not exactly TIMES or anything - I wouldn't trust it for a second.
By the way, if it were true that Gates did that, it really wouldn't suprise me. He's evil. He stole my iPod.
we all dislike MS, but quoting stories from the inquirer? that's low
It's time states in the EU consider standing in solidarity with each other rather than be knocked off one by one.
Back in the year 2000 or so, Microsoft completed the acquisition of a few ERP/business software companies, including Great Plains and Navision.
See, MS decided they wanted to start to play in that space, so they just acquired a few companies that already had established product lines.
These aquitisions were incorporated under the company "Microsoft Business Solutions", which is a sub-company of Microsoft (i.e. my paycheck says "Microsoft Business Solutions", not "Microsoft")
I work for Microsoft Business Solutions. Prior to that, I worked for Microsoft proper (my check used to say "Microsoft")
At no point in my career have I been involved with selling Windows 2003 Server, apart from maybe saying things like "gosh, this windows 2003 server sucks a lot less than windows 95, maybe you should consider upgrading?"
In anycase, when i was in Redmond from 00 to 03, I was a tester working on Visual Studio. Since 03 I've been in Fargo, ND (where the former Great Plains company was based), working as a tester on the Microsoft Business Framework, the underpinnings of the next round of business applications from the "newly formed" Microsoft Business Soluations group, which consists of people/technologies of the former products of Great Plains, Axapta, Solomon, etc.
If you were to go and look for press releases put out by MS on who they were acquiring, what those companies products were at the time, etc, you'll see that everything I am saying about MBS and the aquisitions checks out.
You can think what you want to, but what you're describing has no basis in reality. I don't know what else to tell you.
My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
She actually did not work there for very long. And with all the media circus that shows up whenever a royal person does anything it's unlikely that she talks much with her old co-workers.
And I do believe there's some (unwritten, perhaps) rule about the royal family not interfering in politics. Except, of course, that our queen has a number of official duties when new laws and governments are introduced.
It's 19:11:42. Do You Know Where Your Meat Body Is?
Don't know why I'm replying to your canned arguments, but I will point out that today, in our statist world, WMD not only exist, they are used on a regular basis! (You didn't think the US government managed to kill over 100,000 Iraqi civilians with bows and arrows, did you?) Ironically, the state which claims to be saving the world from WMD is the state which posesses more WMD than any other, and has proven over and over its will to use them to murder innocent civilians.
So much for your theory of governments solving the problem of WMD. No, I didn't prove that a voluntary society guarantees the absence of WMD, but I did just prove that governments haven't solved the problem of WMD (or war in general) -- not by a long shot. Why? Because the root of all war is centralized power. As long as government exists, war is guaranteed.
You took his stuff. You pound him.
The social democrats control whether software patents have a majority or not in the danish parliament.
Be honest: you just invented that little "fact", right? You pulled it out of thin air and, without bothering to check it in any way, offered it up as truth.
If you'd bothered to check, you'd have learned that the Social Democrats, in fact, have no such majority. The current government of Denmark is composed of PM Anders Fogh Rasmussen's party, Venstre (literally, "Left", though this is an historical holdover - the party platform is laissez-faire capitalist) and the Danish Conservative Party.
Together, these two parties do not have a majority in the Folketing, the Danish parliament, but with the support of their allies, the extreme-right xenophobic Danish People's Party, they can muster an absolute majority in the Folketing.
The Social Democrats are helpless to do anything about that. They don't "control" anything, sadly.
- Peter Ravn Rasmussen
As far as the Danes are concerned, he is threatening a shutdown. If Denmark was such a bad place to do business, why'd he buy a business there to begin with?
Forget diamonds, copyright is forever.
Second, IMHO, voting is just a way to keep people from getting completely screwed by the government, not a panacea for the common man. At least in my country, it's more like "one person, one small chance of affecting who gets elected, and that chance is based on how homogeneous the state you live in is (and usually it's a forgone conclusion)".
More to the point, what exactly is the line between "do what I say or the jobs get it" and "if other countries have a better environment for my business, I'm likely to move there"?
Lastly, it's easy to criticize when you aren't offering any ideas of your own (other than "they're in cloud cuckoo land"). So what would you suggest as an alternative?
-Yndrd1984
No I do not, because as the destructive capacity of such a device goes up, the more it becomes an active threat rather than a defense mechinism. How does it become a threat? Let's use the analogy of the drunken driver. He doesn't set out to initiate force against others. But, the drunker he gets, the more his presence on the road becomes an active threat to others, and the greater the likelyhood of accidental disaster. Similarly, the more powerful a weapon becomes, the greater the likelyhood of an accident causing mass destruction. This, I believe, would be interpreted as an active threat (an real initiation of force) by the free people who have settled in the area before such a weapon came into existence. (How could one possibly live peacefully knowing that a simple accident next door could blow up the entire city?)
How to solve the problem is another question. Personally I believe that in a purely voluntary society, the issue would never come up in the first place. Incidentally, I see you citing Somalia as an "anarchist" society. Would you consider Somalia a voluntary society? I certainly do not, so I don't know where you are trying to go with that. If it's not voluntary, it's not anarcho-capitalism -- remember, the basic tool of both warlords and government is force! (To the anarchist, there is no fundamental difference between being ruled by a warlord, king, or elected official. If you are ruled by anyone other than yourself, you are subject to an initiation of force.)
Do you believe that preemptive strikes are immoral (being that they violate the non-initiation of force principle)... even when the stakes could be all human life?
Of course I do. Under no circumstances may any individual or government choose to "sacrifice" a human being for any reason. Why? Property rights. You cannot choose to trade (or destroy) something you don't own in the first place! If human rights are absolute -- which I belive they are, because I am a human being myself and as such, I do own myself -- then nobody can possibly make that decision but each individual human being who would be "sacrificed". To go ahead with such a plan -- the war on Iraq to cite a current example -- is to rob each individual of their most fundamental human right to own themselves.
You took his stuff. You pound him.