Mars Rover Stuck in a Dune

Bamfarooni writes "The NASA Mars rover Opportunity has gotten stuck in a dune, buried up to the hubs of the wheels. While they haven't given up yet, it doesn't look good for the little guy who's now 359 days into the extended mission." From the article: "The Mars machinery had been cruising southward across the open parking lot-like landscape of Meridiani Planum, full of larger and larger ripples of soil. Opportunity has been en route to its next stopover, Erebus crater, nestled inside an even larger crater known as Terra Nova."

Comments

Figures.

[Anonymous Coward]

It was probably attacked by a giant sandworm.

Re:Figures.

[CodeBuster]

bless the maker and his water, bless the coming and going of him, may his passing cleanse the world...

Re:Figures.

[rapidweather]

My next door neighbors just got their '64 chevy truck out of the mud. I asked how they did it, and they said they jacked it up, and it was hell. That thing stayed stuck for months.

Moral: Don't keep spinning the wheels, it'll only go deeper into the mud. Quit while you are ahead, and call a tow truck.

I'll go tell them about the stuck Mars Rover, and since they are now good at it, they'll be right over.

Damn potholes

[Anonymous Coward]

Clearly the Martian Highways Dept. need to get a crew up there right away and fix these potholes before someone gets hurt.

Re:Damn potholes

[Anonymous Coward]

Clearly the Martian Highways Dept. need to get a crew up there right away and fix these potholes before someone gets hurt.

I'd like them to fix the old road, too, but no doubt they've decided not to worry about it since it's only about 12 hours until the Earth is destroyed to make way for the new bypass...

Re:Damn potholes

[Ikester8]

I thought the Earth was going to be destroyed because it obstructed Marvin the Martian's view of Venus...

muu

[ondjultomte]

They need bigger wheels! Knew they shoulda opt for those shiny 18" !

Re:muu

[CPUFreak91]

He he he. Never expected that to happen. That stuff never happens in Star Trek!

If only they had a caddie

[chadamir]

If they had a caddie they would know that they could use a sand wedge to get it out. But nasa is far too cheap and doesn't like to tip.

Re:If only they had a caddie

[StratoChief66]

i don't think the caddie would have been much use after the first day, you know, after he does of oxygen deprivation...

Hold on!

[rlthomps-1]

This is going to take a whole lot of floorin'! /obligatory simpsons quote

Re:Hold on!

[PaxTech]

They should have sent a Canyonero..

Can you name the truck with four wheel drive, smells like a steak and seats thirty-five.. CANYONERO!!!

Re:Hold on!

[PaxTech]

12 yards long and 2 lanes wide;
it's 65 tons of American Pride.

I guess that's why, the launch costs for 65 tons of American Pride would be exorbitant. But talk about roomy!

Re:Hold on!

[WidescreenFreak]

I'm surprised that I haven't seen any spice worm comments, or whatever those desert creatures were. Hey, the rover is stuck on a Dune!

Yes, yes. Bad joke. Blame end-of-the-week fatigue. :)

Re:Hold on!

[WD_40]

"My car gets fourty rods to the hogshead and that's the way I likes it!"

Re:Hold on!

[Cpt_Kirks]

You for the "dagnabbit!".

Re:Hold on!

[er_head66]

The country in which this rover was made does not exist anymore.

Re:Hold on!

[alexhohio]

I guess it wasn't "trail rated" Seriously though, I have seen pictures of this thing, and you would think that they would put either tracks or baloon tires on it for sand use. Those who have been stuck in the sand in a wheeled armored personel carrier know what I mean... You want tracks.... It is possible to bog a tracked vehicle down in mud or very rarely very soft sand, but that is what I would go with. Tracks= superior traction and weight distribution....

Re:Hold on!

[EnronHaliburton2004]

Bah, the Canyonero has a really small penis when you compare it to the Ford Exemption.

Re:Hold on!

[Anonymous Coward]

You for the "dagnabbit!".

You for the "got".

Solution

[AKAImBatman]

Poor little rover. We should send someone up to push it out. I volunteer!

Re:Solution

[tomstdenis]

Yeah nothing like a 4 month voyage to get there... only to nudge it and fly 4 months home...

The inflight movies better be good otherwise you'll be hella bored!

Tom

Re:Solution

[tomstdenis]

good call, he can skateboard with them like in RvB.

Tom

Re:Solution

[Striikerr]

No need to worry! The DID install OnStar didn't they?? Just have the robotic arm press the button... What do you mean they didn't design the arm so it could press the OnStar button?!? Well, there goes THAT idea!

Re:Solution

[Jorkapp]

Onstar: Onstar, how may I help you?
Rover: Yea, I seem to be stuck in a sand dune on another planet.
Onstar: Alright, I'll send a rescue crew to meet you. They should be there in about 4 months.
Rover: About that, could you hurry it up? I think this sand dune is collaps...

+++NO_CARRIER

Re:Solution

[fishbowl]

I'm guessing the first man on Mars will be someone from a culture that has no taboo against making a one-way trip.

Re:Solution

[Corpsesarecute]

Yea, but think of the overtime...

Re:Solution

[Patrick Mannion]

It'd be more like:

Rover:01001011100010001001000100111100100001

Well, there's also AAA. Maybe next time they should include copies of the Hitchhiker's Guide

Re:Solution

[XzeroR3]

OnStar shouldn't be providing service on Mars... or even Earth if you take the name literally.

Re:Solution

[ArtStone]

Whatever you do, DON'T PANIC 8^P

Just press the big red button and help will arrive.

Dear NASA

[Letter]

Dear NASA,

If you had let Xzibit and West Coast Customs pimp out the Rover with 20 inch rims you would have avoided this problem.

Letter

Re:Dear NASA

[east coast]

If you had let Xzibit and West Coast Customs pimp out the Rover with 20 inch rims you would have avoided this problem.

Yeah, but the only thing they would have done to the drive train was put another quart of motor oil in a 25 year old Ford engine with 320,000 miles...

We'z gonna fix yo bucket!

Re:Dear NASA

[DigiShaman]

Spinners...you gotta add in the Spinners pedro!

Re:Dear NASA

[Moby Cock]

NASA Engineer: Sir, we need bigger tires to get out of the dune.
Project Learder: Holla at'cha boyyee
NASA Engineer: Uh, sir, what do you want us to do?
Project Leader: Awww, Snap! Dat rover be da bomb!
NASA Engineer: I'm going home.
Project Leader: H to the O to the M to the E.

Re:Dear NASA

[Talking Goat]

Whitest. Post. Ever.

Re:Dear NASA

[fishbowl]

>And then the "winners" of the show have to sell the
>car in order to pay the insane taxes they are
>hit with for getting something like that.

Do you know the specific rules on this?

They're getting a service performed on their old car, not getting a new car. I don't know how California works it, but there's no tax on mechanic services in most states. If your restoration has the same VIN, it's the same car.

Re:Dear NASA

[fishbowl]

Another example. I know several VW Beetle restorers who have gone from San Diego to Tijuana, bought complete VW interiors and powertrains from Beetle dealers in Mexico, restored their cars, and driven back. As long as you don't change the VIN on the pan, it's the same car. Even to California. Fortunately or unfortunately. (Unfortunately, you can't do certain beneficial things in CA, such as upgrading carb to FI. Fortunately, because you can do this and the results are pretty nice.)

So, if you keep the pan and build a car on it with all new parts, that's OK, but you can't buy the same car and bring it into the States.

Re:Dear NASA

[gstoddart]

If you had let Xzibit and West Coast Customs pimp out the Rover with 20 inch rims you would have avoided this problem.

You know, you're one of several people who have made this quip.

But you do realize that when you go to larger diameter rims, you go to lower profile tires, and the diameter of the overall wheel is unchanged, right?

Re:Dear NASA

[balthan]

They're getting a service performed on their old car, not getting a new car. I don't know how California works it, but there's no tax on mechanic services in most states. If your restoration has the same VIN, it's the same car.

But they get more than just car parts. They sometimes get TVs, game systems, etc. added to the car. It's more than just service.

Re:Dear NASA

[tompaulco]

No they don't. Service is not income. Besides, even though they put $40,000 worth of equipment on the car, they probably only raised the value by a few thousand.
In fact, when most people upgrade their car, they actually LOWER the resale value. But some people might be willing to pay for the novelty of having a car done over by these professionals. I wouldn't myself, but some people might.

Re:Dear NASA

[east coast]

But some people might be willing to pay for the novelty of having a car done over by these professionals. I wouldn't myself, but some people might.

What? Upgrades are alwayz da b0mb! I just got the cigarette lighter and cup holder to mod an old 486/16! It's all pimped out now.

Re:Dear NASA

[Chattah]

But you do realize that when you go to larger diameter rims, you go to lower profile tires, and the diameter of the overall wheel is unchanged, right?

Not if you live in Nashville, TN the rage here is to get a crap ride, throw on some 24 inch rims and tires that actually raise the car. I saw this one guy had more ground clearance in his buick then I had in my Explorer.

Re:Dear NASA

[gstoddart]

Not if you live in Nashville, TN the rage here is to get a crap ride, throw on some 24 inch rims and tires that actually raise the car. I saw this one guy had more ground clearance in his buick then I had in my Explorer.

ROFLMAO -- by now you'd think I would be used to the fact that you shouldn't ever underestimate the stupidity of people and the strange stuff they'll do.

I retract my previous obvservation. :-P

Cheers (and thanks for the laugh)

Re:Dear NASA

[bleckywelcky]

Besides the fact that 90% of the mods they do on those cars make them the tackiest things on the road (like putting a a BMW hood on an early-90s Ford Escort ... wtf were they thinking?), that is my biggest problem with that show. They don't do anything mechanical to the cars (they might have put some air suspensions on 1 or 2 of them). Otherwise, they don't touch the drive train, they don't do __REAL__ body work (sorry, bondo over rusted-out holes in the car does not count), they don't do much to the suspension, steering, axles/differentials, etc. The only time I ever saw them touch the drive train was when a car broke down while Xzibit drove it to the shop. Even then, all they did was pull out the old, crappy engine that was in there before ... clean it up ... then stick it back in.

Then again, with only 4 or 5 guys and 1 or 2 days to do the work, what do you expect?

If you want to see a real car show, watch Overhaulin on TLC. They take a car, have about 40 or 50 experts work on it over the course of a full week, and even then they are often running very close to the deadline. They strip the cars down to the bare chasis, clean everything up, pull off the body and all trim pieces, make proper repairs to everything, seal the chasis, put in great suspensions, braking, steering systems, custom interiors (that actually look good), custom paint jobs (that actually look good), unique rims (each designed by Chip Foose for each individual car), stick in a kick ass crate motor, tranny, exhaust, etc, etc, etc. The only thing bad about the show is that the owner doesn't know about the work being done, and they usually do some cheesy prank where they fake the car being stolen. Otherwise, it's a good show.

Job well done

[witchman]

Too bad if it's permanently stuck, but what an amazing success for this mission, which has gone on far longer that it was planned for. I hope the NASA engineers get the recognition they deserver for this job well done.

Re:Job well done

[AHumbleOpinion]

Now the shuttle engineers.... thats a whole different story!

The shuttle engineers did an outstanding job, keep in mind that much of it is 70s design. Some of it 60s? Now factor in all the politicians and outside organizations that meddled with the design. The funding cuts and other problems that undermined day to day operations. Engineers have to use what is available now and what is within budget, and the shuttle guys did an outstanding job at the time. Today's situation is largely the result of politics and the short sightendness of the voter, not engineering.

Re:Job well done

[JJ]

Here, here!!!

I worked with a few of these people on a variety of things and in general and in specific, they did one heck of a job. I think they all wish they could go to a next generation vehicle.

Re:Job well done

[Rei]

When the Mars Rovers start launching 25K kg to LEO, you can start making that comparison. We're not even talking about remotely comparable classes of vehicles.

You know how new, large jet engines can cost millions of dollars, even though they're mass-produced? Picture an engine that dwarfs your typical jet engine in terms of complexity (in order to get such extreme performance - a single SSME no larger than a 747's engine could propel a 747 at 4 Gs, and still manages to be one of the most efficient rocket engines), and is not mass-manufactured, and you start to get an idea of what is involved here. Real rocket engines (we're just talking about the engines here - the rest of the craft is incredibly difficult, too!), as opposed to little joyride engines that use a heavy tank of nitrous and tube full of rubber, deal with some of the hottest (hotter than the boiling point of lead), most corrosive (high temperature hydrogen-rich thermodynamically imbalanced mixtures corrode things very easily), high vibration, very high thrust, and yet very maneuverable (for gimballing) environments that humans have ever produced. And to make it reusable? A truly incredible feat.

And to think that the fuel is LH (just barely above absolute zero - the temperature alone makes metals brittle - and hydrogen itself severely embrittles metals and leaks through almost anything), while the oxidizer is LOX (one of the most corrosive oxidizers you can get apart from LF). You need to not only contain them (and prevent ice from forming on these frigid structures without adding much weight at all), but to build your tanks with such a bare-minimum-thickness that if you were to turn many rockets upside down when full, they'd rupture due to the taper. These tanks need to be somewhat pressurized (although most pressure needs to be added in the turbopumps - amazing devices on their own). Every last pipe (and there are *many* of them), every last joint, must be as weak as possible, but still welded/attached security, uncorrodable, not allow ice buildup, not melt, and not be vibrated loose. And then, the structure overall is collossal - the whole thing needs to be built this way.

We haven't even gotten into reentry and the problems of being in space for a long time. It's really incredible that we can get off this rock at all; the term "rocket science" being used to mean "highly difficult problems" is quite apt.

Re:Job well done

[stevesliva]

You make it sound like it's a pretty uneconomical decision to make most of the propulsion system reusable.

Re:Job well done

[Rei]

It significantly increases the complexity of the task, for certain. It's a lot easier just to let your engine corrode and crack from the exhaust stream, be embrittled by your fuel or oxidizer, have its joints weakened by the vibration, etc. Stopping this is difficult and costly.

On the other hand, if it's reusable, you only have to build it once, with is a huge advantage when you're dealing with something as expensive as a high performance rocket engine.

Re:Job well done

[DunbarTheInept]

But that's precisely what's wrong with the shuttle. It requires such a massive retrofit between missions that it's a bit of a lie to call it "reusable".

Re:Job well done

[amightywind]

Very true. Consider also that the business end of an SSME, the combustion chamber, is the size of a garbage can and operates at 6000 degrees F! These are truely amazing devices. Lets hope that in the frenzy to scrap the shuttle the next generation of boosters benefits from this technology.

Re:Job well done

[Rei]

It's been changing, though. Because of the shuttle program, there have been some very serious improvements in the cost to restore a reusable engine between flights. In fact, it seems likely that before too long (if the program weren't getting cancelled - not that the shuttle shouldn't be replaced, mind you), only a few parts of the engine would need to be taken apart for inspection, and the engine might not even need a newly resurfaced lining each time. They developed this rather neat way of laying down linings through chemical vapor deposition that blends surface layers without a physical barrier, which leaves no easily-eroded boundary region.

Re:Job well done

[myowntrueself]

Your excellent comparison of the mars rover against the shuttle just makes me want to ask you to do the same comparison between the shuttle and soyuz.

Please.

Perhaps it could shed some light on why, despite the non-reusability of the soyuz launchers components, it seems to be more efficient and reliable?

Thanks!

Re:Job well done

[Rei]

Soyuz isn't more reliable - they have similar safety records, although the Shuttle's is slightly better (both craft have had two fatal launches, but the shuttle has launched more manned flights; more people have died on the shuttle, but that's because it carries more people).

Soyuz is cheaper - about half the price per kilogram as the shuttle. There are a lot of factors involved here, but as the previous poster mentioned, most of them have to do with it not being reusable. The downside to this is that they have to produce a new rocket each time, unlike the shuttle, and rockets have very large amounts of labor and raw materials (some materials, like those used in the engines are very expensive) involved in all of the part production and assembly. Even with the semi-mass-production style used on Soyuz, costs still add up fast, and there's not too much they can do to bring them down further.

Another thing that helps make Soyuz cheaper is that their labor costs are a small fraction the cost of ours. That makes the Delta-IV heavy all the more impressive as a launch vehicle, as its launch prices are similar to Soyuz and Long March prices, but we have to pay US labor costs.

Re:Job well done

[rew]

The shuttle engineers did an outstanding job, ...

The engineers, maybe, management: no.

In '86 engineers shouted: Don't know. Not sure. Let's abort. Managers decided: all systems go. ... Boom!

In 2002, engineers said: let's have look. we're not sure what happened. Managers decided: Nah, we'll chance it. Boom!

Exactly the same mistakes, just a slightly different field.

Re:Job well done

[Valacosa]

"...the term 'rocket science' being used to mean 'highly difficult problems' is quite apt."

Personally, I think Quantum Mechanics is harder. We can't even build a quantum computer yet!

Re:Job well done

[edbarbar]

I read somewhere that NASA intentionally understates the mission life for marketing purposes.

Hopefully there is some tangible value in this whole effort.

Dear NASA & JPL

[computerme]

If any NASA or JPL people are reading this thread I have one thing to say:

Mission _very_ accomplished.

The human race knows infinitely more of our red neighbor thanks to your hard work.

THANK YOU!

Re:Dear NASA & JPL

[roror]

The One thing I hope NASA people not doing now is reading slashdot.

Re:Dear NASA & JPL

[01000011011101000111]

I second that comment... Well done folks!

Re:Dear NASA & JPL

[jd]

Oh, I dunno. It seems to me that it would give them more useful information than reading memos from their upper management.

Re:Dear NASA & JPL

[Mondoz]

Not all the people ever involved in the rover project are going to be occupied with this problem right now.
Some engineer who calculated the orbital insertion trajectory isn't going to have a thing to do with the wheel problem, and might be at his desk right now, eating his lunch, and reading /.

You never know.

And you don't expect that they all work 24X7?
They have lives too...

Re:Dear NASA & JPL

[chris_mahan]

Sounds like somebody at JPL speaking...

Re:Dear NASA & JPL

[PenguinBoyDave]

Good Show indeed. I am very, very pleased to see them succeed in a very big way. Above and beyond all expectations.

Re:Dear NASA & JPL

[PenguinBoyDave]

I just love it when flamebait comments are made by Anonymous Cowards. Grow a set pal.

Re:Dear NASA & JPL

[ajnsue]

I just linked to the pictures on the marsrover website. Gives you chills. /.'ers get into raving discussions about technology thats obsoleted in a few months. And somewhere, somebody is DRIVING A FREAKIN VEHICLE AROUND ON ANOTHER PLANET, TAKING PICTURES! ...geez i feel so insignificant, I need a hug.

Re:Dear NASA & JPL

[Anonymous Coward]

The human race knows infinitely more of our red neighbor thanks to your hard work.

I think we can thank Walmart and Mike Chinoy(CNN) for that.

Re:Dear NASA & JPL

[DustMagnet]

And you don't expect that they all work 24X7? They have lives too...

If they had lives they wouldn't be here on a Friday.

Re:Dear NASA & JPL

[garcia]

Why because the person knew that he would just be needlessly burning karma for a post that would not see the light of day on Slashdot?

People here are too likeminded to put up with a post like that even though it is 100% true.

Re:Dear NASA & JPL

[er_head66]

What the hell is this shit? Did /. just become livejournal?

Re:Dear NASA & JPL

[DunbarTheInept]

People here are too likeminded to put up with a post like that even though it is 100% true.

Likemindedness is a problem on Slashdot that makes people mod down true statemtns - this is true.
Your claim, however, that this is an example of that, is 100% false.
The post in question contains the false premise that the mars project budget is being diverted from solving problems here on earth, and that space exploration doesn't help here on earth - both of which are 100% false.

Re:Dear NASA & JPL

[DunbarTheInept]

Anyone who thinks the Mars rovers are manned missions is in no position to call someone else a retard.

Re:Dear NASA & JPL

[ArtStone]

Are there days of the week on the calendar for Mars? If so, what are the names of the days?

If you live on Mars in the future, and you want to obey the Ten Commandments, do you rest on the 7th day on Mars or on Earth?

Things to ponder.

Re:Dear NASA & JPL

[Mondoz]

What about horroscopes?
What does it mean when Earth is rising in Jupiter while you're on Mars?

Demolition derby

[mrseigen]

They have two rovers. The solution is obvious.

Re:Demolition derby

[Anonymous Coward]

two rovers.... on opposite sides of the planet

Re:Demolition derby

[milimetric]

You're right... the rovers could have sex and in time hope to breed a mighty race of rovers which could then pull out the one that's stuck.

I'm imagining that the other rover is pretty far away and wouldn't get there for a year or so.

But hey, what's everyone all pesimistic about... as you point out, you do have two rovers, why not use the other one? The MISSION CONTINUES!

Re:Demolition derby

[CdBee]

I bet it was a trap laid by Beagle 2... only now can it come out of hiding....

PS NASA - nobody expected them to last this long and you still have one on-the-go. Good work whatever happens

Re:Demolition derby

[shawn(at)fsu]

"the rovers could have sex and in time hope to breed a mighty race of rovers"

And in time they will come back to earth with all the knowledge they have gained..

I for one welcome our Mars Rover Overlords.

I couldn't resist.

Re:Demolition derby

[KiloByte]

Well, we now know that we need to drive carefully.

The rovers are sun-powered, so the other rover can simply drive all the way after its done with examining its vicinity. We have the time, and the Little Green Men are already helping with dusting the solar panels :p

Re:Demolition derby

[TeamSPAM]

Honestly, how fun is a demolition derby between two rover if one of them is stuck?

Re:Demolition derby

[saskboy]

Now Disney can get in on the NASA act, and make a children's movie about the Two Rovers that Left Home.

One got stuck, and the other one thousands of kilometers away, goes on a desperate mission to cross the planet to rescue Opportunity before his battery runs out. All this with help from his sidekick Marvin the Martian, NASA JPL Jake, and Duney the Dune.

Re:Demolition derby

[Ingolfke]

You're right... the rovers could have sex and in time hope to breed a mighty race of rovers which could then pull out the one that's stuck.

Yo yo... and mabye their progeny could evolve some kick ass spinnahs. It's one thing to drive around mars, but fo' real... yuh need to be drivin' in style kid.

Re:Demolition derby

[Idarubicin]

I know the parent poster is kidding, but for those who are wondering...

Under near-ideal conditions, the rovers could crawl a hundred meters (three hundred or so feet) per day.

The two rovers are on roughly opposite sides of the planet, which has a diameter of nearly seven thousand kilometers. To bring the other rover around--assuming you could drive in a straight line and there were no obstacles or technical problems--would take two or three hundred years.

Re:Demolition derby

[Flower]

yeah but which one is the spin bot? Dueling wedges is like watching baseball or golf.

Re:Demolition derby

[Morris Schneiderman]

A good story-teller never lets the true get in the way of a good story.

Re:Demolition derby

[wolf31o2]

They better get a move on, then... It's going to be one boring trip.

Re:Demolition derby

[tehcrazybob]

I'm imagining that the other rover is pretty far away and wouldn't get there for a year or so.

I'm pretty sure it would take even longer than that. The original plan stated that the rovers would travel 40 meters per day. This goal has been exceeded, but I don't know by how much. Even so, considering the varied terrain they would take, we could use that as a base figure. As I understand it, the rovers are over 10,000 km apart. This means that it would take one rover almost 700 earth years to reach the other. And this is assuming the rescue rover doesn't get stuck.

On top of that, these rovers have driven over very carefully chosen terrain. Small rocks, soft sand, and even a tiny incline would stop the rover in its tracks. Assuming there is a way to cross the whole planet while remaining on good terrain, it would take even longer. I'm pretty sure we would have colonies on Mars before we got the rovers in the same place.

And then, over this many years, you have to consider the expected lifetime of the rovers. They were only intended to operate for 90 days before the dust buildup on the solar panels rendered them helpless. We got lucky, and something is keeping them clean and operational, but I doubt we can depend on the same for the next thousand years.

Nevertheless, we have done very well. The rovers have given far more information than ever expected, and even losing one, we still have the other. I think the mission is a huge success. It also continues to be successful, and NASA seems to think the stuck rover is only temporarily inconvenienced. We will see in the coming weeks.

Re:Demolition derby

[myowntrueself]

"You're right... the rovers could have sex and in time hope to breed a mighty race of rovers which could then pull out the one that's stuck."

Once you start having sex with a counterpart thats stuck in a sand dune you arn't going to *free* them.

Re:Demolition derby

[LesPaul75]

Really, 100m/day? That's less than 5 meters per hour, or about 70 millimeters per minute. Snails (literally) move faster than that.

Call Triple A

[east coast]

They'll get there in less than 30 minutes or the next tow is free!

Re:Call Triple A

[jd]

Actually, they need AAAA (American Astronautical Automobile Association). However, the AAAA is currently on-route to Pioneer 11 to replace the battery.

Re:Call Triple A

[doormat]

I thought it was septuple A, the Austro-Afro-Antarctico-AmerAsian Auto Association? (oblig futurama ref.)

Re:Call Triple A

[beerman2k]

[obligitory Futurama reference]

I think you meant Septuple-A (Austro-Afro-Antarctico-AmerAsian Auto Association). :)

Re:Call Triple A

[jd]

Octuple-A. You forgot the "Amazing" at the front.

Well...

[GillBates0]

...looks like it's time to call 1-800-AAA-HELP.

Hope NASA has AAA emergency roadside assistance membership.

Let me say this out loud!

[zr-rifle]

BEAGLE to the RESCUE!!!

...or maybe not...

Don't give up, NASA!

[bigtallmofo]

"We are very optimistic that we'll be able to get out of here, but we're really going to take our time doing it."

It sounds like NASA is going to use a technique I discovered playing video games as a child. If you're stuck somewhere, just wiggle the joystick back and forth for a few hours to see if you can work your way out of it. Too bad they can't reload a saved game. I found that technique helpful too.

Re:Don't give up, NASA!

[nharmon]

Actually you may be more right than you realize. Those with four-wheel-drive vehicles (that actually leave the pavement) know that sometimes after getting stuck, you can move the steering wheel from side to side as a way of trying to gain traction from the sides of the rut you're in.

Perhaps NASA could learn a thing or two from rednecks in 4x4 pickup trucks? *smile*

Re:Don't give up, NASA!

[Eyeball97]

As somebody who's been stuck in sand a few times, it's actually not such a bad idea.

If you get the momentum right, rocking back and forth will often "jump" you out of it as long as you haven't been a complete dummy and run full throttle digging yourself as deep as you an go...

Dunno why they don't just pull it out with the tractor beam from the other Rover, though.

Oh, wait... wrong reality...

Re:Don't give up, NASA!

[mrand]

Those with four-wheel-drive vehicles (that actually leave the pavement) know that sometimes after getting stuck, you can move the steering wheel from side to side as a way of trying to gain traction from the sides of the rut you're in.

And sometimes moving the wheels from side to side digs a deeper hole. Seems like it would all depend on how much traction there is to be had - and if it is surrounded by fine grain sand, I don't hold high hopes.

It's been a great missions, regardless.

Re:Don't give up, NASA!

[nharmon]

Well, if you're stuck because your body/ground clearance isn't enough, rather than a lack of wheel traction,...then yes you will dig the hole deeper.

Re:Don't give up, NASA!

[Phat_Tony]

"If you're stuck somewhere, just wiggle the joystick back and forth for a few hours to see if you can work your way out of it"

Yeah, I played E.T. on Atari too.
FYI, that doesn't help.

Re:Don't give up, NASA!

[robertjw]

Perhaps NASA could learn a thing or two from rednecks in 4x4 pickup trucks? *smile*

No, that's the problem right there. NASA's down in Florida, all the rednecks they hired build mud boggers, don't know anything about desert racing. Shoulda got somebody from out west (Colorado, Arizona, New Mexico, California) with experience in the sand to build their rig.

Re:Don't give up, NASA!

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps NASA could learn a thing or two from rednecks in 4x4 pickup trucks?

Yeah. Too bad they don't have any trains to race to the crossing with up there...

Re:Don't give up, NASA!

[Analogy Man]

There are the other devices on the rover besides the wheels that in a pinch might come in handy. Maybe it could push itself with its rock sampling equipment.

The NASA and JPL gang is quite clever, my bet is that they work this out.

Re:Don't give up, NASA!

[JJ]

The other problem with this solution is the drive time delay. It takes something like a minimum of eight minutes for radio signals to get to the rover and eight minutes for signals to get back. Imagine driving (even very slowly) knowing that the image you are receiving is 8 minutes old and that your instructions won't take effect for 8 more minutes.

Try jiggling the joystick for about 16 minutes and then assume you are out so full power ahead. Great if it works, you're stuck even deeper if it doesn't.

Re:Don't give up, NASA!

[ehiris]

That's a little hard when you have 30 minutes lag on your commands and feedback.

Re:Don't give up, NASA!

[LanMan04]

A redneck with a Slashdot ID 100K? Impossible! =)

Re:Don't give up, NASA!

[Dr. GeneMachine]

Perhaps NASA could learn a thing or two from rednecks in 4x4 pickup trucks?

What, putting gun racks on their rovers?

Re:Don't give up, NASA!

[robertjw]

Actually the controllers at JPL ARE in California...

Yeah, but they're probably hippies.

Dune, my ass

[gowen]

My bet is that its grounded on the wreckage of Beagle II. :)

Re:Dune, my ass

[TCQuad]

My bet is that its grounded on the wreckage of Beagle II. :)

I was going to dismiss this out of hand, but FTA, Opportunity did find two small craters right before running aground. The cause?
They could have been created by an object from space that was large enough to make it through the martian atmosphere without burning up.

And, let's not forget:
"Given that these two craters haven't been covered by sand even though they are surrounded by sand ripples on a flat plain lends support to the idea that they're fairly recent."

Re:Dune, my ass

[maotx]

"Given that these two craters haven't been covered by sand even though they are surrounded by sand ripples on a flat plain lends support to the idea that they're fairly recent."

You forgot to mention FTA:
"Of course, recent might mean any time from yesterday to 100 million years ago."

Re:Dune, my ass

[Lattitude]

They're not craters - they're nostril holes. And the Rover isn't "stuck in the sand" inasmuch as it is being eaten.

Summary is a little too sensational

[calibanDNS]

From TFA: Rover operators are optimistic they can extricate the robot from its jam, having gotten dug in before. and said Steve Squyres, lead scientist on the Mars Exploration Rover effort at Cornell University in Ithaca, New York. "We are very optimistic that we'll be able to get out of here, but we're really going to take our time doing it."

I'd hardly interpret that as "it doesn't look good for the little guy".

Re:Summary is a little too sensational

[pintpusher]

Translation:

Rover operators are optimistic they can extricate the robot from its jam

sure thing boss, no problem, get it right out of there (oh crap, we're screwed)

having gotten dug in before

Yes boss, we've done it before, no problem(I can't believe we got stuck dune hopping again, this never happens with my r/c cars at home...)

but we're really going to take our time doing it

It'll only take a little while... (OH @#$& I just dug it in deeper, whats on Monster.com?)

Re:Summary is a little too sensational

[pHatidic]

Yeah, but even still I'd hate to be the guy who got it stuck right now. Talk about awkward.

Re:Summary is a little too sensational

[ari_j]

Tell me why you RTFA, please. It doesn't make sense. The submitter didn't read it, the editors didn't read it, and nobody else here is going to read it. Why did you? At least post a comment or two before reading it, and then come back.

Re:Summary is a little too sensational

[scpotter]

What Bamfarooni meant by "it doesn't look good for the little guy" is "I know the /. editors will pick the most sensationalized submission, hopefully no one submitted 'rover stuck in martian quicksand' yet"

Re:Summary is a little too sensational

[Dun Malg]

Yeah, but even still I'd hate to be the guy who got it stuck right now. Talk about awkward

Not really an issue, I don't think. There's no one "driving" the rovers per se. There's probably a planning committee that decides where the rover should go next, and they choose a destination. Instructions on how to get there are compiled and sent to the rover. The rover then follows the directions, hopefully not running into anything unexpected. In this case, it ran into some deep sand. Hazard of the process. It's not like there's a couple guys sitting in repurposed Pole Position sit-down games hot rodding the rovers in real-time. You think 500ms lag is bad, try 10 minutes...

Re:Summary is a little too sensational

[ediron2]

I saw this gaffe before the article left 'the mysterious future', and sent an email to the editor, just like they request:

to: daddypants@slashdot.org
subject: Mars/Opportunity Story innacurate

Bamfarooni wrote: it doesn't look good for the little guy who's now 359 days into the extended

Compare this to the linked article: Rover operators are optimistic they can extricate the robot from its jam, having gotten dug in before.

No reply to me, yet. But the story shifted from:
... It doesn't look good...
to:
... While they haven't given up yet, it doesn't look good...

Draw your own conclusions.

Re:Summary is a little too sensational

[brer_rabbit]

Yeah, but even still I'd hate to be the guy who got it stuck right now.

The guy who got it stuck? It's not like it's driven by a single person. You can blame this on Asian Driver Syndrome.

Re:Summary is a little too sensational

[stevesliva]

I think it was mentioned elsewhere that not only was the deep sand of the dune crest an issue here, but also the fact that Opportunity hit this crest laterally, not perpendicular to the crest, causing all wheels to get mired. The rover computers know to avoid big rocks and such, but obviously weren't configured to look out for this.

I warned them!

[Quiet_Desperation]

I told them not to cut the winch out of the design! But do they listen? Nooooooooooo, they don't!

Re:I warned them!

[PhraudulentOne]

Was it a winch that magically worked in sand? A Sand winch? Sandwinch... sandwich... mmm lunchtime.

The ultimate backseat drive...

[Pengunea]

"Back up! Are you backing up? Okay that's not working, try going forward. Cut it out, you'll flood the engine! Have you tried backing up yet? Oh no, you flooded the engine!"

On the lighter side of things they might want to call up someone from Winnepeg, Toronto, or Montreal. Anyone who's used to nudging their way out of being stuck in a snow drift.

We're pulling for you little Rover, we just wish we could get out and push too!

Re:The ultimate backseat drive...

[Ced_Ex]

"NO!!! WE'RE NOT THERE YET!!! And if you guys don't shut up this minute, I'm gonna turn this thing around and head home!!!"

Buggalo

[bsd4me]

I'm sure someone riding a buggalo will fly by soon and rescue it.

Bigger Wheels

[eander315]

With all of the rediculous trucks on the road in the US, you'd think NASA would have been inspired to build a montster truck version of the rover. Couldn't we just send a Hummer next time?

Re:Bigger Wheels

[nharmon]

Couldn't we just send a Hummer next time?

Just make sure that it isn't a Hummer H2...those things can break a tierod on anything. *duck*

Re:Bigger Wheels

[TheKidWho]

Did someone say SUV?

http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology /mars_science_lab_040211.html

Re:Bigger Wheels

[Dirk Pitt]

Naw, those humvees are only useful if you're carting grunts over poorly paved roads and getting shot at.

If you're leaving the pavement, send a real rover.

Re:Bigger Wheels

[Yenin]

Are you crazy? The gas prices on Mars are astronomical.

Re:Bigger Wheels

[mikael]

Wow! A stretch 4x4! Great for making an appearance at those outback movie premiers - just remember to bring your own beer and BBQ ribs.

Re:Bigger Wheels

[Terminal Saint]

A Hummer? It would take so much thrust to get one of those behemouths to Mars it would be easier just to bring Mars here...

BattleBots

[RealityMogul]

If only NASA engineers watched more BattleBots they'd have realized that they needed a flipper arm underneath.

Re:BattleBots

[merlin_jim]

I was thinking the exact same thing. Seems like such an obvious tool to have. I was thinking more of a jack than a flipper arm. I imagine the rover would not do well in a non-standard attitude (aka "upside down")

Some advice?

[Fahrvergnuugen]

Be real patient, go real slow and use lots of ... oh wait.

Re:Some advice?

[MalaclypseTheYounger]

Be real patient, go real slow and use lots of ...

...lube?

What are we talking about again? :)

More info

[Cyclotron_Boy]

There's discussion on the Mars Rover Discussion Board and again. It seems careful Rover Watchers noticed that it hadn't moved in a few days, and started to wonder why. Apparently NASA had to say something, because people were asking questions.

Re:More info

[hoggoth]

> careful Rover Watchers noticed that it hadn't moved in a few days, and started to wonder why. Apparently NASA had to say something, because people were asking questions.

My wife hasn't moved in a few days either. Being a careful watcher, I am starting to wonder why.

Re:More info

[Cyclotron_Boy]

Actually, this shot from the Mars Rover site shows the front wheels pretty well buried and covered with caked-on soil.

Re:More info

[ahecht]

You do realize that the first link is to a thread that is over a year old, right?

Re:More info

[DrLex]

Errr... if those are the front wheels, then what made those tracks the rover is following?

Re:More info

[The Angry Mick]

I wonder why the soil is caking on the wheels? I would think that even ultra fine sand wouldn't do that unless there was some form of moisture.

Re:More info

[FuzzyBad-Mofo]

Perhaps the rover is going backwards?

Re:More info

[Chokai]

In order to even the wear on the drive motors on the rovers SteveS and crew have been alternating between driving forward and backwards.

Re:More info

[Dun Malg]

I wonder why the soil is caking on the wheels? I would think that even ultra fine sand wouldn't do that unless there was some form of moisture. Try playing with some ultra-fine powder, like flour, powdered clay, or wood ash. It tends to "cake up" when compressed also when dry. Same thing.

Re:More info

[ebrandsberg]

Considering that you see the trail, this implies the picture is from the BACK, not the front. It does show how much the rover is sinking into the dirt though, and with that shows the level of the problem they are facing right now.

Re:More info

[Anonymous Coward]

There's no caking, what you are seeing is the disturbed sand in the shadow of the rover -- it's a heap of sand on the ground (disturbed no doubt by the rover spinning it's (back) wheels) and the presense of the shadow and the wheel in the 2 dimensional picture makes it look like (at first glance) that the sand is stuck to the wheel.

The right wheel (from the perspective of the picture) is perfectly clear. The left wheel looks to be in motion to me.

Re:More info

[ElAurian]

It's awe-inspiring to think that those are one of only two sets of tyre tracks on the entire planet. Even more amazing, those dunes are absolutely pristine. No insects, no animals, maybe bacteria if we're lucky.

Nothing but two little dune buggies, and no little brown spider to take the wheel.

Re:More info

[TurboTas]

Has she started to smell yet?
Sorry: has she started to smell more yet?
If not, probably nothing to worry about. Did she still cook your meals?

Re:More info

[Ced_Ex]

My wife hasn't moved in a few days either. Being a careful watcher, I am starting to wonder why.

Could it be that your wife is really one of these?

Re:More info

[Anonymous Coward]

In other news, NASA can't figure out why after 48 hours of going backwards and forwards, that the rover is still in the same place.

Re:More info

[WalksOnDirt]

And the other's a couple of weeks.

Re:More info

[srvivn21]

The wheels are not moving. compare and contrast.

Aside from the position of the shadow those two pictures are identical.

HEY!....... HEY YOU!

[MarkGriz]

Yes you, solar panel washer martian dude.

How about a little help over here.

Dust devil?

[avalys]

I wonder if a passing dust devil, of the same sort that periodically clear the dust off the rover's solar panels, might be able to blow some of the sand away from the wheels?

It might take a while, but hey...

Re:Dust devil?

[AviLazar]

Well you run into two problems (that i can see).

1) Having to get a dust devil to pass by the rover

2) The dust devil actually passing by in a way that helps shift the sand away, as opposed to putting more sand in.

Sorta like hitting the engine of a car with a hammer and hoping it will increase the performance. Yes there is a chance it will do that, but most likely it will make things worse. Now where is a chaos mathemitician (Jeff Goldbloom) when you need one?

Learn to drive in snow

[classicvw]

Now they need somebody from upper midwest, or upper New York to show them how to get out. I have been in worse than that, and they are 6 wheel drive.

That sucks, but they got their money's worth

[stlhawkeye]

NASA has definitely gotten their money's worth out of these two golf carts. These missions have exceded their design specifications by like 500% or something. Weren't they meant for a 90-day mission? We're going on over a year. That's nuts.

As much as my Nerd Gene wants a manned mission to Mars, it's hard to argue with the scientific value of (relatively) cheap missions like this. NASA shifted in the late 90's to a series of relatively inexpensive probes with a narrow purpose (as opposed to the Voyager-class missions). These probes make sense. For one, there's less financial damage if one fails or is destroyed. And two, they can be put together, tested, and launched more cheaply and more quickly.

And we're getting some excellent science from them. The Mars rovers were an hour-by-hour news story, then a day-by-day news story, there was a lot of public interest in them during those first few days. These kinds of missions are, I think, more crucial to human space exploration than launching a dude to Mars.

There's some things you must have people in space to accomplish, but we've got a lot to learn yet through frugal unmanned space exploration and I hate to see so much of NASA's focus being shifted towards manned operations. Honestly, I hate to see NASA continuing to be involved in the production and operational side of space exploration. I think NASA should be reformulated as a primarily science and research-oriented organization and launch operations should be almost entirely privatized. NASA does too many things and most of it not that well, and none of it efficiently.

Re:That sucks, but they got their money's worth

[Swanktastic]

NASA has definitely gotten their money's worth out of these two golf carts. These missions have exceded their design specifications by like 500% or something.

So doesn't that mean the rover was massively over-engineered?

Or did they really expect the rover to last this long and simply said it was a 90 day mission in order to cover their tails?

Re:That sucks, but they got their money's worth

[i41Overlord]

NASA shifted in the late 90's to a series of relatively inexpensive probes with a narrow purpose (as opposed to the Voyager-class missions).

As opposed to Voyager?

Voyager was a relatively inexpensive probe with a narrow purpose.

The entire Voyager mission cost less than 1 space shuttle launch does. So you could fund a Voyager-type mission with the price you're paying for a single Shuttle mission to re-stock the Space Station.

The problem is that you can't really get too much cheaper. Even if you just launch a slab of concrete into space, it's still going to cost you hundreds of millions of dollars. You might as well make a more capable probe since that's only a small part of the total cost.

Re:That sucks, but they got their money's worth

[barawn]

Or did they really expect the rover to last this long and simply said it was a 90 day mission in order to cover their tails?

Ding ding ding, we have a winner. All NASA probes are typically given a very short lifetime and very modest expectations, engineering them for much larger goals. Easier to request money from Congress that way, and also less of a PR disaster if something goes wrong.

Re:That sucks, but they got their money's worth

[vidnet]

It won't have been there for a year until around May 6th :P

Re:That sucks, but they got their money's worth

[stlhawkeye]

The entire Voyager mission cost less than 1 space shuttle launch does. So you could fund a Voyager-type mission with the price you're paying for a single Shuttle mission to re-stock the Space Station.

Voygar's total price tag was approaching a billion dollars (granted, over a 30 year period), and that's including some dollars spent in 1972 which would translate into many MORE dollars today.

I'm besmirching Voyagar or its science. But launching small single-purpose missions like this gets us a LOT of feedback and a lot of information, with much less risk. What if Voyagar had been destroyed at Jupiter? We'd never have done any flyby of Saturn until this year, and still have nothing on the other two gas giants.

Compare that to designing a narrow-mission probe for each planet and launching. The TOTAL cost may be more, but the total science is going to be insane, and if one fails, we've got others. That's why Spirit and Opportunity were paired up, mission redundancy.

I agree with you also on your implication that the space station is a resource hog.

Disagree with your assessment of Voyager as a probe with a narrow purpose. Exploring three planets with one probe is pretty ambitious, and at serveral points they thought the probe would be lost, on approaches to both Uranus and Neptune. I really think some good luck has played into the success of the Voyager program.

Re:That sucks, but they got their money's worth

[stlhawkeye]

Very true, and the parent as well.

So do you guys not think that we've gotten our money's worth out of the rovers?

Re:That sucks, but they got their money's worth

[stlhawkeye]

The entire Voyager mission cost less than 1 space shuttle launch does. So you could fund a Voyager-type mission with the price you're paying for a single Shuttle mission to re-stock the Space Station.

Also, one space shuttle launch costs is on the order of $600 million.

The New Horizons mission to Pluto is $650 just for the probe. I don't think you could launch a Voyager-style mission for under a billion dollars these day, and certainly not keep it under the price tag of a shuttle launch over a 30-year duration.

Re:That sucks, but they got their money's worth

[mehtajr]

All NASA probes are typically given a very short lifetime and very modest expectations, engineering them for much larger goals.

I think it's called the "Scotty method."

Re:That sucks, but they got their money's worth

[eaolson]

So doesn't that mean the rover was massively over-engineered?

Or, maybe, it was designed to meet it's 90-day lifetime with 99.9% reliability. That will tail off as it gets older. It's not like they would design it to survive a 90-day mission, with it exploding into fiery chunks on day 91.

Re:That sucks, but they got their money's worth

[khallow]

The problem is that you can't really get too much cheaper. Even if you just launch a slab of concrete into space, it's still going to cost you hundreds of millions of dollars. You might as well make a more capable probe since that's only a small part of the total cost.

There's no law of physics that requires launch costs to be the current several thousand dollars per kg. Even if launches weren't declining, you would still be able to launch concrete into space for around $5-10 million per metric ton (depending on who you use).

Shuttle launches are also cheaper than you are implying. The following figures are my hazy recall of the economics of the Shuttle. The marginal cost of a Shuttle launch is on the order of $250 million. Counting the huge overhead and 3-4 launches a year, you get a higher price tag of around $500-1000 million. It's still too expensive.

Re:That sucks, but they got their money's worth

[_KiTA_]

They stole that trick from Scotty on Star Trek. :(

"And how long will it really take?"

"3 hours."

"What, you told him the actual time?"

"Well, yes?"

"Well how will everyone think you're a miracle worker?"

Re:That sucks, but they got their money's worth

[jackbird]

It's not like they would design it to survive a 90-day mission, with it exploding into fiery chunks on day 91.

...although that would be awesome.

Re:That sucks, but they got their money's worth

[nsayer]

But nobody would be there to see it.

Re:That sucks, but they got their money's worth

[jackbird]

That's why you send 2.

Or have it drop off a remote camera like they did for the Apollo LEM takeoff footage.

Re:That sucks, but they got their money's worth

[jafac]

....These kinds of missions are, I think, more crucial to human space exploration than launching a dude to Mars.....

When you launch a dude to Mars, you need to do the R&D to solve problems like, negative health effects of long-term exposure to zero gravity, and solar radiation, generating (or bringing with you) enough propellant on the martian surface for a return trip. That kind of R&D is pretty crucial to human space exploration, and doesn't happen when you're not doing manned spaceflight research.

On the other hand, I'm not sure we're at the stage, technology-wise, WRT launch vehicles, space propulsion, and extraterrestrial environments, where it's even a good idea to pursue manned flight. I think that some of the science of the last decade, gathered during unmanned flights, has helped a lot with these kinds of foundational technology. In short- I think NASA's generally been taking the right approach. Getting to Mars is several orders of magnatude more complicated than landing a man on the Moon. And so is Maintaining a Presence on the Moon. I don't think we're realisticly near enough to either of those two goals right now, to make it worthwhile to begin programs for them. There's much we can learn from a long phase of unmanned spaceflight. And a lot of that may be important prerequisites (space propulsion, in particular).

Re:That sucks, but they got their money's worth

[CrimsonAvenger]

As much as my Nerd Gene wants a manned mission to Mars, it's hard to argue with the scientific value of (relatively) cheap missions like this.

Of course, one must remember that if we'd sent men there, they'd have gone as far as Opportunity has gone by lunchtime of the second day on the ground. Or the first day, if they were in a hurry. It's not like Opportunity is as far from its landing site as work is from home for me.

And a crew of men, seeing some of the unusual things the Rovers have seen, wouldn't be in the position of "we need to design a new mission and send it off to investigate this neat feature in five years or so" - they'd have just gotten their tools out and gone to work.

A manned mission will be expensive as sin. And possibly risky. And we'll learn more in the year they're sitting on the ground on Mars than we'll learn in the next two centuries of sending " inexpensive probes with a narrow purpose"

Re:That sucks, but they got their money's worth

[Tablizer]

The "warranty" period determines whether parts vendors get paid the full amount IIRC. NASA sets such targets as a guideline and incentive to the vendors.

Re:That sucks, but they got their money's worth

[Shadowlore]

As much as my Nerd Gene wants a manned mission to Mars, it's hard to argue with the scientific value of (relatively) cheap missions like this. NASA shifted in the late 90's to a series of relatively inexpensive probes with a narrow purpose (as opposed to the Voyager-class missions). These probes make sense. For one, there's less financial damage if one fails or is destroyed. And two, they can be put together, tested, and launched more cheaply and more quickly.

Again it depends on what you mean by "science". Correctly speaking, the rovers, cool as they are, do not do science. They merely gather data. They are (very) remote instruments, nothing more. Indeed, we have even more remote instruments. Not fundamentally different than a thermostat or my digital camera. They all gather data, humans are doing any science. Therefore, the *science* return from these guys is nil. That's a high price to pay for zero return. Perhaps not so bad for data, though that is questionable too.

Now, put a crew of 4-6 people on board and send them to Mars - now that is big-time publicity. You get something interesting to talk about leading up to the launch (interviews with the crew, stories about them, the mission, etc.). You get something interesting to watch during the launch and for the next six months as they travel there, their experiences little space tricks, etc.. You get something interesting to watch as they arrive and land. You get at least a few good months of coverage after planetfall. You get at least a month or so at the one year mark. You get something enticing as they launch from mars to come home. Perhaps you get stuff on the way back; maybe some return trip exclusive interviews or something. And of course arrival in orbit and return to "home" is exciting stuff to watch, too. Then for a few months after touchdown you've got interviews, talk shows, book deals, conventions, etc..

Robots will not acheive such a potential for acpturing the eye, spirit, and attention like a manned mission can; at least for for a few human generations at least. If you want people excited and interested, sending people is the name of the game.

And no, "science of robotics" doesn't count as all that work was done here before they ever left (duh ;)).

They dropped from the public's radar so quickly in part due to them being machines. Their limited travel and feature set meant that after a while the day to day activities were mostly unchanging. This is bad, or at least not good, for maintaining public interest.

As far as human exploration, the costs are not as you believe, nor is the timeframe.

Robotic missions are not so effective in the temporal scale as you might think. The time frames invovled in designing testing, retesting, etc are not small. Nor are the timeframes involved in getting it from drawing board to planetary landing site. IIRC, MSL is scheduled for a 2009/2010 launch. It'll take a year to get there. It's been in the works since at least 2002, as I recall.

That gives us a total time of somewhere between eight and ten years from concept to Martian landing. Follow up missions are not looking to take any less time. But they should.

Follow on missions don't take less time because robotics engineers always want to try something else. That means years of research and testing, most of which is NOT reported in the cost of the final rover. After the research come the tests and applications to get on a launch schedule, etc.. Then comes the wait for a launch window opportunity.

Adding to this is the natural size increase in the forthcoming proposed and planned rovers. MSL is looking to weigh in at 6600 pounds, over 3 tons. It is going to weigh in at about twice the weight of my car. The days of small rovers are over. We liek to rave about their "unexpected life" and the allegedly high "science" they are doing. Reality of it is they are primarily producing lots of pictures.

The biggest discoveries, and most significant, regarding Mars over t

Rover stuck on Arrakis

[chemstar]

All that research on folding space, and look what happens.

Images

[Maddog Batty]

The rover is driving backwards so there is more to see in the front view than there is in the back view

I hope they get it out...

Re:Images

[Concerned Onlooker]

It's also interesting to compare the above image with this one, taken Jan. 31, 2004 when the wheels were relatively clean an un-caked.

Opportunity has wheel trouble already

[karvind]

Mars Rover Opportunity has wheel trouble already earlier in april. It lost the ability to steer one of its wheels. They said: While the vehicle can still move, the failure may make it harder to study rocks up close. The rover has six wheels aligned in two rows and each of the four corner wheels has its own steering mechanism. The problem is with the front right wheel, which can still roll but is now stuck at a 7 inward angle.

Also Opportunity and Spirit were given a further 18-month mission extension on 5 April 2005.

Tow Job

[kpwoodr]

With the other rover on the other side of the planet, it looks like it will be a while before the tow truck gets there.

I bet if you called Marvin, he could help you out of a jam.

Don't they have a tiny shovel that could dig the wheel out of the dirt?

Re:Tow Job

[stlhawkeye]

Wouldn't it be amazing if they both lasted long enough to eventually meet up somewhere? It'd probably take years but talk about publicity! Two robots designed for 90-day missions circumnavigating another planet! I wonder if it's even possible, given their design and Mars' terrain.

Re:Tow Job

[speleo]

Wouldn't it be amazing if they both lasted long enough to eventually meet up somewhere?

Let's do some math:

The top speed of the rover is roughly 0.036 km per hour.

The equatorial radius of Mars is 3397 km which means the circumfrence is 21344 km. Let's assume for simplicity each rover is exactly opposite the other, so they're 10672 km apart.

Travel time to go 10672 km at 0.036 km per hour is 33.84 years earth time.

Of course, this assumes travel around the clock, which they can't do since they need to recharge batteries.

In other words, it'd take a long damn time -- it ain't gonna happen.

Re:Tow Job

[DoubleD]

divide by 2 assuming you have each rover moving towards the other in an optimal manner.

Then multiply by 2 for battery recharging

Then multiply by at least 10 for terrain navigation and other interference.

Still ain't gonna happen, at least until we have a mars base and somebody carries them both to the same museum ;).

Re:Tow Job

[ArtStone]

" divide by 2 assuming you have each rover moving towards the other in an optimal manner."

If the Opportunity rover could move, it wouldn't need a tow truck.

Even if the other rover were only 50 feet away, sending it to rescue the rover would just result in two stuck rovers.

And /. people would like to think they are smarter than JPL scientists...

Re:Tow Job

[stlhawkeye]

Let's do some math:

Before you even start, note that I said it'd be "amazing" if it ever happened, implying that I'm aware of the unlikelihood.

Let's assume for simplicity each rover is exactly opposite the other, so they're 10672 km apart.

Travel time to go 10672 km at 0.036 km per hour is 33.84 years earth time.

But each one need only travel half that distance to meet up, so it's only like 17 years! Huzzah!

Roads?

[mikvo]

FTA: Time will also be spent figuring out what's different about the soil that has bogged down Opportunity, hoping to keep this problem from occurring down the road.

Road? Where we're going, we don't need roads!

Change type of vehicle?

[Armagguedes]

Considering the Martian soil is practially all sand (at least where they like to land) wouldn't it be better to use hovercrafts there? there's plenty of atmospheric gasses (CO2 mostly) and i think this doesn't get all that affected by dust.

Either that or either a miniature tracked vehicle, tank style or a roibotic spider like thingie.

Anti-grav's still a long ways off.

Re:Change type of vehicle?

[stlhawkeye]

Considering the Martian soil is practially all sand (at least where they like to land) wouldn't it be better to use hovercrafts there? there's plenty of atmospheric gasses (CO2 mostly) and i think this doesn't get all that affected by dust.

Somebody else mentioned treads as well. I'm guessing these things were considered and discarded due to the extra complexity, weight, and power requirements of those modes of locomotion.

Re:Change type of vehicle?

[enosys]

I'm sure hovercrafts would use a lot more power than wheeled vehicles. I don't think solar panels would provide enough power for that. Plus hovercrafts would create large clouds of dust, some of which would settle on the solar panels and make things worse.

Re:Change type of vehicle?

[Transcendent]

Considering the Martian soil is practially all sand (at least where they like to land) wouldn't it be better to use hovercrafts there?

Nothing like shitting on your scientific project by blasting sand at it at 50mph.

Seriously, the point is to make observations, not speed around the planet.

Re:Change type of vehicle?

[TheHawke]

Have you seen the flyer that they are wanting to use on mars? The wingspan alone would rival a 747s. Oh and the propeller that it's going be using. It's as big as the GE90's turbofan intake compressor.

The lift fan on a hovercraft on mars would be probably about 75 feet in diameter.

And the dust! my gawd the poor thing would choke on it and visibility would be ZERO the instant the blades start moving any kind of volume.

Re:Change type of vehicle?

[mr.mighty]

"lots of atmospheric gasses" is relative. The air is thicker than in space, but it's very, very thin. You'd need an awful lot of power to move enough air to make it hover, I'd guess.

Re:Change type of vehicle?

[gnuman99]

No. You just need pressure for which you would need a compressor. Those things are quite heavy. Also, Mars is dusty. To have anything hover, well, BAD idea.

Winch

[crunk]

As any redneck will tell you... you should never go muddin without a winch.

In other news...

[Anonymous Coward]

In other news, AAA membership fees are being raised to $70,000,000 per year.

Re:Humor?

[NextGaurd]

Humor, yeah... I guess so. But I can't help the feeling that we (humanity) are consumed with short term problems and the problems with NASA and lack of interestfrom the general public may keep us from seeing the big picture... and in the long run - it's big picture stuff that makes for great advances.

I envision

[mattmentecky]

While they haven't given up yet...

I envision a NASA tech and a NASA manager lurking infront of a big control panel

Tech: Sir it appears to be...uh...stuck in some sand

Manager: Sand? Well, try all our options to get it unstuck!

Tech: I uh....can...tell it to move forward...again...

Manager: Great idea!

*Tech presses obvious large red button*

Tech: Uh...still won't move...

Manager: Well dammit, what else can we do?

Tech: We could....push the button again...

That's what we get for sending low-grade droids

[terrab0t]

Why did this never happen to R2-D2?

A la Lancelot

[Joe the Lesser]

Rover: Could uh... could someone give me a push?...

This is what *REALLY* happened

[netglen]

They're too embarrased to admit it, but they actually found the rover on red cement blocks and some Mars fiend has stolen the wheels.

Re:Dune?

[Husgaard]

Yes, soon one of those giant sand worms will come and swallow the poor rover...

When the signal from the rover disappears, we finally have proof of life on Mars ;-)

They've probably tried this already...

[devphaeton]

....and that's probably how it got stuck, but they could possibly rock it out like a car.

I've always wondered why they built it with wheels and not tracks though. Guess some of them are wondering the same thing now.

This sucks. Really.

Re:They've probably tried this already...

[Martin Blank]

Tracks are mechanically much more complex. Each track is mechanically linked with its neighbors, increasing the number of possible failures.

Re:They've probably tried this already...

[the_2nd_coming]

6 wheels that are independent and can be moved up and down at will are better than a track system.

Re:They've probably tried this already...

[korbin_dallas]

Not really, especially for this size device.

Caterpillar (and others) now use a Rubber Endless Loop Track (i.e. BIG rubber band). No pins, no shoes, no clanking.

RE:
http://www.cat.com/cda/layout?m=37840&x=7

Re:It's okay, it was powered by Windows XP...

[ookabooka]

Actually, this incident was a demonstration of a new feature; that's how the rover was supposed to operate.

P.S. Its now also an industry standard

Terrestrial Simulations

[QuantumFTL]

I wouldn't worry too much about this one - the engineers are already using the engineering test rovers to test possible means of escape here on earth. The test rovers have proven invaluable in the past for modelling such complex situations (where computer models would be unlikely to be of much help).

The rover had made it many kilometers, I don't a little sand dune is going to stop it. All the scientists I've spoken to about this seemed optimistic (which was not how they felt about the spirit anomoly back in January 2004) so... I'm not worried just yet.

Does make for some very cool pictures though!
-- Justin

Re:Humor?

[Kaamoss]

I couldn't agree more. Even if they can't get Rover up and running again, which I'm sure they will, it's had a good run and garnered a wealth of new information for us. It's essential purpose has been served so regardless of the outcome it's still a good thing.

Time for help from the dustdevils again

[johnjay]

Now if only one of those dustdevils that's been cleaning the solar panels would be kind enough to wedge a 2"x12" behind the drive wheel...

Use the other one

[sheepoo]

Why don't they use the other rover to push this one out of the sand dune?

Re:Use the other one

[crunk]

...and have two stuck rovers?

Should have sent a H2 instead of a "Rover"

[FerretFrottage]

Sure it would have only gotten a few km down away from the lander before needing to gas up, but no little dune would stop it unless the engineers were afraid of getting it dirty since they only want to use the H2 to drive to the local Mars mini-mart and back.

Re:Should have sent a H2 instead of a "Rover"

[nilptr46]

All the more reason to send humans to Mars - to lay down some asphalt to the mini-mart for the H2.

You wouldn't think of taking that beauty *gasp* off-road, would you?

Re:Should have sent a H2 instead of a "Rover"

[rbochan]

That would be a great idea... especially when a Hummer can get stuck in a parking lot :oP

Re:Should have sent a H2 instead of a "Rover"

[iamlucky13]

Taking that piece of crap off-road would be a really bad idea. Seriously. The chassis is basically a slightly modified Tahoe. I've seen a video of some moron trying to crawl some small rocks with an H2. He's guns it as he going over one and had tie-rod snap in somewhat spectacular fashion. The original Hummer, or bet yet, a Humvee would be far better. Besides, just think how much CO2 you'd be adding to the martian atmosphere.

that aint no crater...

[bobsalt]

looks like worm sign to me...

Naw. They should've used Dubs

[Anonymous Coward]

The Mars Rover would look completely dope with some chrome-plated, 20-inch spinnaz, yo.

Wrong guys are driving the thing...

[kenneytechnologies]

We need to get those volvo driving NASA geeks out of the drivers seat and call in Cousin Clyde. Sure, he's used to driving a F350 with 10" lift and 32" mudboggers, but hell, just tell him it's eight wheel drive and there's a case of PBR in it for him. He'll have it unstuck in no time.

muu?

[game kid]

I told NASA to call MTV so they could Pimp Their Rover. These bureaus just don't listen. It's gonna be tough to drive the beater to West Coast Customs now.

Though I do wonder how fine it would have went with spinning rims...

MOD PARENT UP! INSIGHTFUL

[Spy der Mann]

Actually it's not a bad idea at all. I mean, kids play with their remote-controlled toys and sometimes they have to flip them over. If this happens with a toy, what tell us it won't happen to the Mars Rover?

After all, didn't DaVinci used his creativity to design the precursors of today's modern inventions, like the helicopter, or the glider?

So yes, why not play with more toys and watch more robot battles to get ideas?

Re:MOD PARENT UP! INSIGHTFUL

[Dun Malg]

Actually it's not a bad idea at all. I mean, kids play with their remote-controlled toys and sometimes they have to flip them over. If this happens with a toy, what tell us it won't happen to the Mars Rover? After all, didn't DaVinci used his creativity to design the precursors of today's modern inventions, like the helicopter, or the glider? So yes, why not play with more toys and watch more robot battles to get ideas?

Bah! Don't be daft. Every ounce of weght is another [x] amount of milliamps those drive motors will draw. And not only would it require the arm and its driving mechanism, but it would require significant structural reinforcement to keep parts from bending, cracking, and/or breaking off when the whole vehicle's weight is put on them. In a year of driving these things around they haven't yet required a "flipper arm". Keep in mind that the "planned" length of the missions was 92 days and we're now approaching four times that. Besides, do you really think the NASA/JPL guys are so dense as not have thought of such a thing? We saw a similar stream of posts saying "those dumb NASA scientists should have used [some hair-brained scheme]" when the issue of dust on the solar panels came up! Honestly, it almost seems as if people look at the Mars Climate Orbiter crash and conclude that, on the basis of a dumb mathematical error, everyone in NASA is a fool and doesn't think creatively. News flash! This just in: They're not stupid, your idea isn't as great as you think it is!

Re:MOD PARENT UP! INSIGHTFUL

[Ced_Ex]

Besides, do you really think the NASA/JPL guys are so dense as not have thought of such a thing?

Well... maybe current day NASA/JPL guys with all their fancy doodads and computers. Plug in the variables and the machine spits out the answer.

Back in the old days they used an abacus to figure the math needed to solve a problem. Probably had a better understanding of math.

I would be willing to bet that current day NASA engineers could not send up a spacecraft using the same technology the old engineers had.

Re:MOD PARENT UP! INSIGHTFUL

[Spy der Mann]

Besides, do you really think the NASA/JPL guys are so dense as not have thought of such a thing?

Newsflash: NASA scientists aren't gods. Remember when they forgot to turn on the huygens switch? Huh? And what about the flipped-over gravity sensor? Oh, and don't forget about Apolo XIII, the Challenger...

Scientists make mistakes, too. They're not perfect. And my point was that no matter how much science or math they know, they might need a creative mind's help.

Re:MOD PARENT UP! INSIGHTFUL

[Gulthek]

I would be willing to bet that current day NASA engineers could not send up a spacecraft using the same technology the old engineers had.

And I would be willing to bet that those old engineers couldn't do it using current technology. It's not a question of advancement or loss, it's what you are used to using.

Re:MOD PARENT UP! INSIGHTFUL

[bluGill]

No, the ancients had a better ability at arithmetic. However all the boring calculation prevented them from seeing the forest for the trees too.

Re:MOD PARENT UP! INSIGHTFUL

[DunbarTheInept]

no matter how much science or math they know, they might need a creative mind's help.

You don't become a scientist in the first place without one.

Re:MOD PARENT UP! INSIGHTFUL

[Dun Malg]

Scientists make mistakes, too. They're not perfect. And my point was that no matter how much science or math they know, they might need a creative mind's help.

Scientists ARE creative-- that was my point. None of those things you listed would have been prevented by more creativity. They were errors, plain and simple. Even creative people make mistakes.

Wow...

[Seoulstriker]

That really is a small planet!

Re:Wow...

[quisph]

Nah, it's a really big rover!

Re:It's okay, it was powered by Windows XP...

[Virtual Karma]

WTF??

Dont you think this joke is kinda old and redundant? Enough of windows bashing. There is more to life than posting on /. with some windows bashing and hoping to please some OSS-fanatic-moderator.

My advice: GET A LIFE!

Why can't they

[RealProgrammer]

Why can't they just

• Back up? ("What do you mean, 'there's no reverse'? Budget cuts my ass!")
• Activate the built-in turbo jacks?
• Ask Google? When I get in a jam, that's what I do.
• Reverse the polarity?

I guess that's why I'm not in charge of NASA.

Sticky sand?

[cplusplus]

The wheels on the rovers have visible ridges on them (like tread on a car tire). Looking at the picture, it appears that the sand has stuck pretty tightly to the wheels, because the ridges aren't visible. That rover is in a sticky mess :(

Re:Sticky sand?

[dcigary]

That's what I saw too, leading me to believe there's some type of moisture in the soil? Dunno.

Maybe they can wait until nighttime and hopefully whatever is permeated into that soil will freeze, giving the rover a little more traction...

IRTA

[Orlando]

The Mars machinery had been cruising southward across the open parking lot-like landscape of Meridiani Planum full of lager

Just let him sleep it off, apart from a headache he'll be alright in the morning.

Opportunity's last transmission before sinking:

[mblase]

ALL THESE WORLDS
ARE YOURS EXCEPT
PHOBOS
ATTEMPT NO
LANDING THERE

Re:Opportunity's last transmission before sinking:

[The Breeze]

Actually, it's last transmission was REALLY:

My God! It's full of mud!

nod to SW...

[technix4beos]

Overheard just before it got stuck.

Junior Engineer: "Sir, it looks like the rover is headed for a small dune of sand."

Operations Manager: "I've got a bad feeling about this."

Senior Engineer: "That's no small dune", *eyes wide*

If only NASA had sprung $50 for a AAA membership

[hqm]

If they would just have coughed up the $50 for their AAA membership, this wouldn't be a problem.
As it stands, the towing charges are going to be astronomical.

Command Stream

[jac1962]

trans reverse
power full
trans forward
power full
trans reverse
power full
trans forward
power full
trans. . .

fake

[biffyboy]

everyone knows we cant get into space, the world is flat, and that this landing like the moon landing, was/is staged in hollywood. pthff they will do anything to create drama these days.

Re:It's okay, it was powered by Windows XP...

[DeathFlame]

He had a life, but he got it from Microsoft so it crashed! hahah. I'm so clever.

OK, Who Forgot the Shovel?

[WillAffleckUW]

Send a probe to a sandy planet - and noone brings a shovel?

Oh, wait, it's NASA. Never mind ...

Hey I Can See My House From Here!

[DumbSwede]

Great picture though it doesn't inspire confidence they will extricate Opportunity.

I can't help notice the one and only visible point of light in the upper right sky. Could that possibly be Earth?

Re:Hey I Can See My House From Here!

[kencurry]

visible point of light in the upper right sky. Could that possibly be Earth?

... sadly, it's just a stuck pixel on your cinema display.

18th hole

[scharkalvin]

"Mars rovers get stuck in sand trap on way to 18th hole." Mars would make a nice golf course! (But the moon would be even better!

Little rover that could't.

[iv81]

They should wait till summer. Full charge it using the solar pannels and such and accelerate it at full power.

Re:Naw. They should've used Dubs

[Rei]

And they could have launched it on a Rice Rocket. I'm picturing an old Delta-2 with an oversized "Type R" decal, a dozen gigantic fog lights, oversized chrome-plated bell nozzles on the engines, racing stripes, and extraneous fins. ;)

I've been there...

[Sponge Bath]

On a closed beach (due to incoming storm), late at night, doing doughnuts in the sand...
and the car gets stuck.

We tried getting traction by putting the (many) empty beer cans under the wheels. Still no luck.

Then a park ranger stops by, shines a flashlight on the wheels (illuminating the cans) and gives us the 'you are too stupid to live' look.

Ahhh.... spring break!

careful on Dune

[brer_rabbit]

if the rover stays in one place too long, it may be eaten by a sandworm. I hate it when sandworms eat my harvesters.

Re:careful on Dune

[TheWickedKingJeremy]

Unless the sandworms are from Tremors and not Dune, in which case staying in one place is the best survival strategy.

All future NASA rover missions should be equipped with a Kevin Bacon.

Re:Southern Drivers

[WD_40]

Here in so-cal, the average daily accident rate doubles from about 200 per day to 400 per day when it rains. People just don't slow down.

No problem

[Craig_P92669]

Just call MacGyver! Get him some straws, a soda can and some duct tape and he'll be there next week!

Better sensationalized version...

[theendlessnow]

The rover is dead. Somebody has already stripped the hub caps and key'd the side of the vehicle. Left rear axle is up on blocks. Birds have covered the front and rear windows with poop. It doesn't look good for the little guy who's now 359 days into the extended mission. It is unlikely that a tow truck will reach it anytime soon.

Re:Southern Drivers

[robertjw]

...haven't had the pleasure of learning to drive in deep snow without 4WD and chains.

Actually, they probably should have hired Californians with experience driving 4WD vehicles across SAND since they got stuck in a dune. Maybe somebody who has experience in the Imperial Sand Dunes. Driving in snow is very different than driving in sand, I've done both. Plus, the rover appears to be a six wheel drive.

Baja Claws

[robertjw]

They need bigger wheels! Knew they shoulda opt for those shiny 18" !

Not bigger wheels, bigger tires. Shoulda went with some 44" Baja Claws.

Re:Baja Claws

[mikael]

Not bigger wheels, bigger tires. Shoulda went with some 44" Baja Claws

No, you need sand tyres - mud tyres are designed to dig deep into the dirt.
That's the last thing you want to do if you are travelling across sand.

Re:Baja Claws

[robertjw]

Oh, tell me you did NOT reply to my post with a link to a Landrover site. You are just wrong on SO many levels.

• First, the Baja Claw is generally a accepted to be a good sand tire. If I was mudding and needed traction I'd use a Super Swamper.
• Second, the amount of traction that's good for a sand tire depends on several factors. What I've found over the years is that a vehicle with low horsepower generally does better with a smoother tire will spin, keeping wheel speed up and not digging in to the sand. If you have enough power, a tire with more traction will actually work better, as long as the air pressure is low. If you look at the trucks that race in SCORE you will see that most of those have aggressive tires with transverse ribs, unlike the Landrover article you cited.
• Third, Landrover is the most overrated, underpowered, ridiculous excuse for a 4x4 on the PLANET. If you doubt I know what I'm talking about, show me a Landrover that can do this.
• Finally, the word is TIRES, spell it with me T-I-R-E-S

Re:Baja Claws

[pmc]

Land Rover over-rated? I don't think so. A Land Rover is almost indestructable. That is why you find them all over the planet. First car to go from Alaska to Cape Horn. Look at any film you may see with relief effort in Africa and examine what they are driving - why, they're Land Rovers.

They are relative cheap (especially considering their lifespan), simple (less to go wrong), easy to repair, and easy to jury rig to limp home.

Sort of reminds me of the (apocryphal) story about the NASA $1Million pen and the Russian 5c pencil.

And it is tyres.

Re:Baja Claws

[robertjw]

First car to go from Alaska to Cape Horn.

Yeah, and because only a Land Rover idiot was dumb enough to try. The truck hasn't changed in the 30+ years since. Look at any film you may see with relief effort in Africa and examine what they are driving - why, they're Land Rovers.

Or maybe just because they are left over from the colonial days, or because it's one of the few reasonably priced 4x4s built in Europe - which is a HELL of a lot closer to ship from than the US. If you notice, most of the other stuff used in African relief efforts isn't usually state of the art either.

They are relative cheap

Maybe in your part of the world, here in the US they are a pricey status symbol of the SUV crowd.

For the most part they remind me of the old 50's Willys CJ3A. They too were small, cheap, easy to repair and simple. They would go absolutely anywhere as long as you didn't want to go more than 25MPH. Jeep as moved on Landrover should too.

Re:Baja Claws

[msim]

theres a whole selection on this site, my favourite one is the bike tyre.

Re:Call MAA

[saskboy]

I created this handy package the other year, but no one from JPL bought it, although one NASA person did write to enquire about the plan:

Thanks for looking at my sale.
This item comes from Canada, but is listed on es.eBay.com on purpose for their more reasonable listing fee, and their money is about as close to alien gold-pressed latinum as any currency on Earth.

Martian Automobile Association Membership card with booklet.
Motto: Don't be caught on Mars without us!

If you are planning on travelling to the Red Planet before 2030, be sure to take your MAA card with you. This makes the perfect gift to your future astronaut child, or favourite NASA engineer.

The card will come with a water resistant covering, and features the MAA logo and motto. The expiry date on the card says December 31, 2029.

If you know a kid with Spirit, and is a real Rover, then this is the gift for them. Help them Find their Path, give them the gift that keeps giving every time they need help on their interplanetry Sojourn. This is an Opportunity of a lifetime, membership cards are extremely limited.

Member Benefits listed in the included booklet:
Rover towing to nearest Mars base, or Platform
Oxygen/Nitrogen/Hydrogen fuel supply delivered in emergencies.
MS BSOD insurance.
Planetary impact insurance up to $100,000,000US.
Access to toll free MAA help line 1-555-GOT-MARS?
The Terms Of Service [If you bid without reading these, heaven help you]:

I take the following forms of payment only [in the equivalent value of the winning bid price + shipping]:

Canadian Tire money [at face value]
Monopoly money [exchanged at 0.0005% face value]
Traveler's cheques
Shiny beads, trinkets, or gold coins
Chocolate bars
Cod, the fish, at current market value.
Mexican Pesos, Japanese ¥, and even European Euros.
Australian $, UK £, Canadian $, coins or Money Orders.
American $ cash preferred. Lots of it please.
Hershey's Kisses(tm) - please note that I will not consider melty sticky kisses a valid payment.
PayPal balance transfers in US$ are accepted if you don't have any of the above payments to offer, and are a boring fuddy duddy or poopy pants buyer.
All legal currency must be dated from after the year 2000, since I don't want it to have the Y2K bug. I prefer foreign cash, but you are welcome to pay with any option here.
I will put your separate eBay items in one package, to save you money. Weight and thickness restrictions of the package may limit how many auctions you can combine.
Shipping to the USA is Air, and $2.00US.
Shipping to Canada is $1.50Can.
Shipping Internationally is 2,00EUR.
Shipping Interplanetary to Mars is $80 Million USD. Expect 7 to 22 months for delivery.
Consult my eBay About ME page for handy links regarding Canada Post shipping. I'll ship the same day, or next business day payment arrives. Insurance is available on request if you do not want me to ship by the regular Lettermail or standard XpressPost. I will ship almost anywhere in the world.

Please contact me if you have any questions or concerns, before buying. I'm happy to help...
Contact me if you want to see detailed pictures of the item.
Please see my other auctions which feature a variety of items. I'm a very diverse seller.

Copyright computer_saskboy 2004
Please note this is for the card and booklet only; membership benefits are only available on Mars.

It's easy!

[flyingsquid]

Just take the floormats out and put them under the wheels for traction. Or you can let some air out of the tires which will give them a bigger footprint and better traction.

Re:It's easy!

[ackthpt]

Just take the floormats out and put them under the wheels for traction. Or you can let some air out of the tires which will give them a bigger footprint and better traction.

Hilarious. You should do stand up.

Seriously, floormats are usually much more slippery because they're plastic. You'd be better off carrying a 5 pound bag of sand around in your car during the winter. I've seen people try the floormats and they make interesting projectiles. This is what a flying carpet would look like!

Letting air out of the tires doesn't work, period. It's like urban legend stuff. If you let too much air out of a tire then the snow bunches up under the middle of the tread which becomes convex.

Moderation is the trick, go easy instead of trying to spin out of deep ice or snow. Once you've broken the coefficient of friction you'll never get anywhere and just end up packing snow into ice and polishing it.

Re:It's easy!

[Ced_Ex]

Letting the air out isn't urban legend. The purpose of letting *some* air out is to give the tire greater surface area to get grip. You're not deflating the tire completely, just taking out about 10-15lbs psi. Read it here.

Also, the floor mats do work, those people you see obviously don't know what they are doing with the floormats if they are ejecting them into the air. Don't floor it when you shove the mats under! You're suppose to just crawl it out using the floormats for grip instead of loose sand, or ice.

Re:It's easy!

[xENoLocO]

Does it really matter? The mars rovers don't have air in their tires.

Re:It's easy!

[DunbarTheInept]

There are different types of floormats. Some have a 'carpety' top surface and some have a 'slick' top surface. I suspect the carpety ones work well and the slick ones not so well.

Re:It's easy!

[WormholeFiend]

maybe we can ask the same Martian who's been cleaning the solar panels if he would please put some floormats under the rover's wheels so it can move along?

Re:It's easy!

[NemoX]

Yeah, they don't have floormats, either. Heh :p

Re:It's easy!

[makohund]

Sand dunes are not snow, and they behave differently.

You're right about the friction bit, and that going easy is a good idea. But sand does not melt and polish into ice, which gives you another option (and set of rules) to fall back on. In particular if we are talking about deep, loose sand on a slope... it may be your only option. Not all vehicles are equipped or capable, which is why you don't see them putting around on sand dunes.

With properly designed tread (paddles and similar designs) and sufficient wheelspeed, you CAN spin right out of sand. A change in weight distribution is also helpful, if possible. Of course, it is a risky proposition... lack of sufficient wheelspeed (or too slow of a transition from rest to full speed) will do exactly what you describe... dig you in deeper.

Basically you have to grip sand and throw it backward fast enough to push yourself forward. Sort of like a propeller, but not quite. You have to do it hard and fast enough so that you don't run out of propellent (sand) before you've gained enough momentum to keep from sinking into the sand. (If you've dug down to the floor of the vehicle, your wheels are left spinning in empty space, intead of throwing sand.)

Of course this is totally irrelevant in the case of the rover. Even with the right tread and motor capability they could not afford the power drain it'd take to do it.

And the other poster talking about air pressure is absolutely correct. You let just enough air out to increase the surface area, decreasing the pressure on the sand, enabling you to "float" on it a little better. It doesn't matter if you go slightly convex, either. (In fact it helps... the sand in the concave compresses and holds you up just a tad better.) There is no danger of this compression turning the sand into a slick solid with a wet surface, like there is with snow.

It sounds like you deal with snow a lot. I don't. But I grew up next to one of the best patches of dunes in the US, and used to play out there (in many different types of vehicles as well as on foot) on a regular basis. Not just weekends or special occasions, either. (Heading out for an hour or two after school was common.)

http://gorp.away.com/gorp/resource/us_nra/or_dunes .htm

Re:It's easy!

[Alastor187]

Letting air out of the tires doesn't work, period. It's like urban legend stuff. If you let too much air out of a tire then the snow bunches up under the middle of the tread which becomes convex.

If you let out too much air the center of the contact patch will become distorted and the foot-print will begin to look more toroidal than rectangular. This is less than ideal as the total foot-print area will be decreased.

However, if you just let out enough air to increase the contact patch area without distorting the shape, it will improve the grip. This is because tires are sensitive to load, and as the load is decreased on the tire the coefficient of friction increases.

As the internal tire pressure is reduced the contact patch area is increased, although the relationship is not linear since part of the tire load is taken up by the sidewall. The increase in contact patch area decrease the overall contact patch pressure, effectively decreasing the load per unit area.

A good book on this topic is "The Racing & High-Performance Tire" by Paul Haney. An overview of the chapter regarding rubber friction can be found here:

http://www.insideracingtechnology.com/tirebkexerpt 1.htm

Please note that this link does not represent all the details covered in the book.

Re:It's easy!

[vrt3]

Letting the air out isn't urban legend. The purpose of letting *some* air out is to give the tire greater surface area to get grip. You're not deflating the tire completely, just taking out about 10-15lbs psi.

Hummers (and perhaps other all-terrain vehicles?) even have a system that allows the driver to increase or decrease the pressure of the tires with a push on a button.

Fascinating

[saskboy]

I'd have thought the dust devils the rover's been seeing to be hazardous to the mission [and they potentially could be] but at this point they've given the rover a boost, as the dust that's been settling on the solar pannels, has been partially cleaned off, which increases the rover's power generation.

"Accompanied by Wind

NASA's Spirit rover spotted the first dust devil of the Mars Exploration Rover mission on martian sol, or day, 421 (March 10, 2005). The dust devil was observed the day after martian winds cleared the rover's deck and increased the amount of power the rover harvested from sunlight shining on its solar panels." http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/spotlight/20050325. html

Re:Southern Drivers

[Anonymous Coward]

When rain is relatively infrequent, as it is even in a "rainy" time in Southern Cal., the accumulated oils and guck on the road get churned into an emulsion by the passing wheels and create an extra-slippery mess that threatens control until a sufficient volume of water falls to float the crap off the road altogether.

Where rain is more frequent, the layer of guck is less and the danger less.

At least that's what my late buddy from southern cal. used to tell me, explaining why in a Virginia cloudburst he would pull over to the side of the road and refuse to budge until the initial fury was spent.

arm?

[mikeee]

Er, doesn't the rover have an arm? With a little rock-grinder on it, even?

I don't think it's *designed* to dig, or push off, but you might be able to do it...

Mars rover not trail rated, I presume?

[IronChefMorimoto]

Man -- hope Jeep didn't provide the drivetrain for this little piece of hardware, 'cause finding out THIS product isn't "trail rated" could pretty much put them out of business.

IronChefMorimoto

Red Rover....

[Mr. BS]

....Red Rover.... send the tow truck on over!

Those guys are so stupid

[osgeek]

Why don't they send Spirit over to give it a little push?

Jeez!

Tru Dat!

[Flower]

Oh wait...

Damn.

Success

[TimeTraveler1884]

I'm not saying they don't deserve recognition, but using this mentality, if I always over estimate project timelines I could be VP in a year.

Re:Southern Drivers

[glsen_az]

Why don't they just have the other rover do a AAA Roadside Assistance? It carries chains, right? Just an attached hook to the rear of the stuck rover, a few good tugs, good as new - back on the road. -*-Bill

Gender

[cardhead]

"it doesn't look good for the little guy who's now 359 days into the extended mission."

I thought everyone knew that Opportunity is a girl.

Re:Southern Drivers

[ackthpt]

Here in so-cal, the average daily accident rate doubles from about 200 per day to 400 per day when it rains. People just don't slow down.

Not so much a matter of not slowing down, they don't allow more space between themselves and the next vehicle, even the knackerheads who cut in between cars with only a whisker to spare. Small wonder there's more accidents, there's less room for error and compensation.

POWDER!

[SCHecklerX]

Wow, that looks cool. /me grabs his snowboard and thumbs a ride to mars.

Re:Southern Drivers

[Woody77]

I grew up in the midwest, and comfortably drive on icey roads. A first-rain-of-the-season (october or so) on fresh blacktop here in Silicone Valley? worse than black ice.

I tend to drive a lot in 4wd in my truck on those occaisions. So slick that 4wd is actually "safe" for the drivetrain.

But it usually clears up after one or two good hard rains.

It's not my fault!

[drkich]

Would it help if I got out and pushed?

Damn you Baron Harkonnen!

[digitaldc]

First you stole all of my spice and then you told the sandworms not to rescue me!
Oh well, I guess I will just have to do an extensive study of the mechanics of wind speed, sand grain size and moisture in creating sand formations.

Arms underneath rover

[Kerbz]

You mean to tell me that the design didn't include arms underneath the rover that would account for this type of situation? That strikes me as preposterous!

I don't mean to be that guy...

[padukes]

but everyone is going on about all we learned from this mission - what did we learn? It's certainly a huge challenge and an amazing feat - but what do we know that we didn't know before (other than some tips on how to explore a planet)?

Re:Why can't they - ski

[saskboy]

I wonder why they didn't provide the rover with two skis, just in case they ran into a problem like this? Lower the skis, and use the rear wheels to drive it, like a ski-doo.

I mean, they could have envisioned encountering a snow bank maybe? [Yeah I'm kidding about the snow, but the ski idea is a good one I think, on a sandy planet.]

And the moral of the story is...

[Anne_Nonymous]

Always get the towing rider on your insurance policy.

Some suggestions to get UNstuck...

[qualico]

Being an avid 4x4'er and no stranger to getting stuck, the best suggestions are this:

1. Do *not* make things worse by spinning the wheels and digging yourself *in* further.
(You're not rushing so you know this already, but certainly don't spin the wheels)
2. Try to wiggle/dig *out* some clearance between your undercarriage and the sand. The more contact points you have the more friction you need to overcome. (After exhausting all options you may want to use the arms to remove as much sand from around the wheels and undercarriage as is possible. This may ruin the scientific instruments on those arms, but at least you'll better your chances of getting out.)
3. Straighten your wheels as much as possible, but also try to match the entrance route.
(noticed in the picture that one of the wheels is perpendicular to the track line, not a great way to get out.)
4. Use your highest gear and slowly without tire spin, REVERSE!
(It's usually best to go the route you came from, *not* visa versa because you've compacted the sand and you don't want to "plow" anymore)
5. If that is difficult, ROCK the house! Rocking back and forth to create a space to give momentum on the way out is a great way of "punching" through the hard spot. Again, the reverse route is usually the best choice to rock out of. Give one last good pendulum type run at it when you're ready to try to bust out. Rocking forward then at the pinnacle, rock with all you have backwards.
5. Use time to your advantage; keep working at it with the above. You don't want the sand to settle like cement though, so don't just sit there. Further those pesky dust devils may fill your tracks.
6. Perhaps you can use gravity to your advantage on a slope.

I'd wish you good luck, but there is no such thing as luck.
There's only statistically calculated coincidence.

So good "statistical calculating"!

Re:Some suggestions to get UNstuck...

[MisterBates]

Thanks, Captain obvious!! I don't think they would have figured all this out. I mean, it's not like the engineers at NASA has any common sense.

Re:Some suggestions to get UNstuck...

[Eric604]

Thanks, Captain obvious!! I don't think they would have figured all this out. I mean, it's not like the engineers at NASA has any common sense.

Since NASA engineers don't read /. and slashdotter don't have common sense, I think that post was perfectly fit.

Re:Some suggestions to get UNstuck...

[jafac]

1. Do *not* make things worse by spinning the wheels and digging yourself *in* further.
(You're not rushing so you know this already, but certainly don't spin the wheels)

Depending on the composition and such of the soil, and the light-weight of the vehicle (lighter in martian gravity) it could be to their advantage to spin the wheels. It's possible that newton's third law could even come into play. . .

2. Try to wiggle/dig *out* some clearance between your undercarriage and the sand. . . .

Probably a good idea. Maybe not possible, given the response lag between command-transmit on Earth, and execution on Mars.

4. Use your highest gear and slowly without tire spin, REVERSE!

Electric-motor propulsion. Gears?

5. If that is difficult, ROCK the house!....

Again, great, here on Earth, with 1G, and a 1-ton vehicle, and near-instant response-times between fwd/rvs shifting so that the drive wheel direction can be coupled with the momentum from the oscillation induced in the chassis. Most likely not possible in this case.

Re:Some suggestions to get UNstuck...

[qualico]

Good points.

It certainly will be something you need to test here on Earth and submit as an entire program to be executed on Mars.

Re:Some suggestions to get UNstuck...

[qualico]

Good points also.

Can you program the electric-motor to act in a way that uses more torque instead of speed?

Re:Some suggestions to get UNstuck...

[qualico]

Well Captain Asshole, thanks for the fart, but it certainly takes more than common sense and some skinny armed geeks to understand the dynamics of 4x4'ing.

If they had been using that common sense, they would'nt be stuck now would they?

Re:Some suggestions to get UNstuck...

[DunbarTheInept]

Rocking back and forth to create a space to give momentum on the way out is a great way of "punching" through the hard spot.
Remember that all these moves have to be preprogrammed, and executed without immediate human feedback. The thing you're talking about requires knowing when to reverse direction by feel and doing it immediately at the right time - not with a 10 minute radio signal delay. To make the rocking idea work would require that the rover 'driving' software be programmed to sense when the right time is to reverse direction based on how the wheels' traction "feels" in their divot.

Re:Some suggestions to get UNstuck...

[qualico]

Yes, that certainly makes it an interesting problem to solve.
No doubt with the Earth bound unit, they will come up with something.

Be interesting to see this application for retail vehicles.
If they can do anti-lock, why not posi-rock?

Re:Some suggestions to get UNstuck...

[qualico]

and with you. :P

Re:Some suggestions to get UNstuck...

[ArtStone]

"(noticed in the picture that one of the wheels is perpendicular to the track line, not a great way to get out.)"

As is pointed out elsewhere, the front wheel is stuck at a 7 degree angle. That's why the rover is running in reverse, and dragging the crooked wheel behind it.

Anyone experienced in snow driving knows that the first thing you do if your drive wheels are spinning while stuck in a snow drift is to make sure the steering wheels are straight, to get rid of the lateral forces that block whatever movement the limited friction from the spinning wheel(s) is generating. [this applies much more to rear wheel drive than to front drive]

Since the most obvious course of action is to "back out" the way you came, and the lead wheel in that direction is stuck at an angle, I would put pretty long odds on this thing ever moving again. But NASA has been known to pull off miracles in the past.

Re:Some suggestions to get UNstuck...

[qualico]

I'd mod that up if I could.

Where was that information posted?

Re:Some suggestions to get UNstuck...

[ArtStone]

New Scientist has the story from about 2 weeks ago:
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7284

"The rover has six wheels aligned in two rows and each of the four corner wheels has its own steering mechanism. The problem is with the front right wheel, which can still roll but is now stuck at a 7 inward angle. NASA rover project manager Jim Erickson says it is like a car losing its power steering."

It continues with a quote from the "Quote I wish I could take back" department:

"At this point, with this one actuator failed, it's an inconvenience, nothing more," says rover chief scientist Steven Squyres.

The JPL statement on the issue at that time is here: http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/status_oppo rtunityAll.html#sol430
[...]
"Opportunity's right-front steering motor stalled out on sol 433 during an end-of-drive turn. While performing tests to help the team diagnose the condition of that motor, the rover also continued to make remote-sensing observations. Testing in sol 435 did show motion in the steering motor, but analysis is still underway. The rover resumed normal science and driving operations on sol 436, but with restrictions on use of the right-front steering motor. It drove 30 meters on sol 437. Opportunity and Spirit are capable of driving with one or more steering motors disabled, though turns would be less precise. The latest revision in flight software on both rovers, uploaded in February, gives them improved capabilities for dealing with exactly this type of condition. It gives them upgraded ability to repeatedly evaluate how well they are following the intended course during a drive, and to adjust the steering autonomously if appropriate."

So the JPL story seems to say on sol 435 that the steering motor was still working, but testing was still underway and its use was restricted.

Re:Some suggestions to get UNstuck...

[qualico]

Thanks for that.

It's going to be near impossible to get out of that dune if it's anchored at an angle where it acts like a digging bucket.

I'm thinking they will have to match an exact reverse of the moves the rover made when it anchored the wheel into that position.
If that is even possible.

Don't they just need a thumper?

[geekwithsoul]

They just need a thumper to call the worm and hitch a ride out of there, don't they? Oh wait . . . "in a Dune" not "on Dune." Never mind.

Re:It's okay, it was powered by Windows XP...

[MisterBates]

Don't you get it? This is /., the more you complain about the redundancy of a joke, the more the joke is used. Therefore, I, for one, welcome our new redundant-joke-telling overlords!!

Umm...

[Anonymous Coward]

The scientists were optimistic about that Spirit glitch, at least the ones with considerable past mission experience. It looked very strongly like a software problem from the start.

Re:Southern Drivers

[darkpixel2k]

I couldn't believe it! I went down to the NAPA valley for 2 days to do work for a company. When I landed at the airport everyone was talking about how miserable it was, how everyone was late because of traffic accidents, etc...

I stepped outside to find a nice light drizzle.

It was a little bit of a shock since I live about 30 miles from Vancouver, WA and we get buckets of rain all the time.

This is what happens when you let those

[Senor_Programmer]

Alabama rednecks from Huntsville drive.

"Hey Vern, watch me jump this dune!"

Pffft...

[Quiet_Desperation]

Some of you people need to get out more. You attach the winch's hook and cable around the nearest tree, and then- oh, wait a minute...

Some Rover achievements...

[digitaldc]

• Photos and panoramic data with Pancam and Mini-TES that can be used by scientists to select targets for further study
• Practice travel from point A to point B and have enough intelligence to maneuver through a Martian landscape littered with boulders and rocks
• Take measurements with the science tools the rover carries on its arm (called the Instrument Deployment Device or IDD) and study them
• Drive the rovers as great a distance as possible, or to approach a rock target that has been identified.
• Deploy the Microscopic Imager to collect close-up views of a selected Martian rock. The arm then rotates to bring the Rock Abrasion Tool (RAT) into position to grind into the targets surface. The Microscopic Imager is repositioned to collect images of these freshly exposed layers. The Alpha-Particle-X-ray-Spectrometer (APXS) then may be used to gather information on the elemental make-up of the rock, or the Mössbauer Spectrometer may be brought into position so that scientists can learn the composition of the iron-bearing minerals in the selected target.
• Collect airborne dust for analysis by the science instruments

[Source:" http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/tl_surface_ sci.html"]
What will be learned from this information will help in future Mars missions, you gotta start somewhere!

Wow

[YeEntrancemperium]

Wow, just get out and push.

Dear NASA

[Swaffs]

Just straighten the wheels and try rocking it a bit. Usually works for me.

Uh uh, sandworm!

[antdude]

Maybe it is above a sandworm that is going to be eaten up soon? Hmm, I played too much Dune games. [grin]

Swarms needed

[Eminence]

Yet another example why we need not one, not two, not a dozen but literarily swarms of cheap robots if we are to get much research fast.

If that would be one of, say, 50 little rovers sniffing around Mars plains this wouldn't even be news.

And it's another argument in favor of manned mission. Why? Because people on site can do something creative in difficult situations while an automatic rover clearly can't.

So either massive robotic exploration or manned missions. Of course both would be best. But neither is just crawling, not research and not expansion.

Arrakis??

[whitehatlurker]

Sorry - I misread the storyline.

I thought that the Rover was stuck on Dune.

Re:Southern Drivers

[fshalor]

This would have been funnier if you'd signed it "W".

Desktop Wallpaper

[jimcooncat]

Finally a shot worth justifying the RAM.

FORD

[glrotate]

First On Race Day

Re:FORD

[Darby]

Fucked Over Rebuilt Dodge

Re:FORD

[britneys 9th husband]

First On Race Day

to make a pit stop.

No

[xRelisH]

It just needs some NAWWS and a cold air intake

How is this redundant?

[i41Overlord]

If you take a look at the time my post was posted, it was at the same time as the other AAA posts. They all were posted within seconds of each other at 11:40AM.

I think I know the problem

[nihilistcanada]

I bet it is a metric sand dune.

Push it out

[Photar]

Just have spirit drive over and push it out :)

Sitting in my backyard...

[march]

Sitting in my backyard reading this /. article, I watch as the neighbor's kids throw baseballs up into a tree to get a stuck soccer ball out of its wedge in position on a high branch.

I think... Gee, if we took that railgun, maybe we could tag the rover just enough to get it out of the sand.

Then again, maybe not. Alas...

One bonus to not having water on your planet is that eventually, the other rover could get there and push him out. :-)

New Sci-Fi Network Miniseries?

[fishpick]

Dune: The Stuck Rover
Soon on Sci-Fi Netowrk...
Sponsored in part by Sun, the makers of Java...

Frank Herbert would be so proud...

What they aren't telling us....

[EmbeddedJanitor]

It is really stuck in gridlock!

AAA

[DaveS002]

Gotta call AAA right away for some road service. First tow is free. Subsequent ones might incur a destination fee. Also, mount the 'dust tires' with the half inch studs. That should help, too.

Question about craters

[ehiris]

What is so interesting about craters? I don't remember what craters on earth hold that is interesting when trying to explore this planet. Why isn't NASA looking in canyons, or on mountains which contain caves, or even in those spots which seem to have once held rivers or other bodies of water?

Better yet

[apankrat]

> If this thing drives in reverse most of the time, wouldn't it be
> more convenient to name front wheels .. err .. 'rear wheels' ?

Or "the wheels formerly known as front"

Re:Southern Drivers

[Afrosheen]

Yeah, there are 2 problems with places where it rarely rains, when it rains.

1. The US has chosen the worse possible grade of asphalt (blacktop) for the majority of streets and parts of highways. Europe uses a much safer grade which uses larger rocks in the mix, therefore giving your tires more to grab onto in the wet. Ask Germany how well this works.

2. In densely populated areas, you get alot of junk cars on the roads leaking oils and fluids. This, combined with heaps of rubber, bakes into the road surface. First rain, all that stuff liquifies and rides on the surface of the water. It really is slicker than ice and any insurance company will tell you, the first hour after it begins to rain is the most dangerous time to drive.

I live in Dallas, and people are equally stupid here when it rains. Nobody turns their headlights on when it's misting in the daytime, and everyone thinks they're driving magical cars that brake even better in rain than in dry conditions. You can count on all the major highways and interconnects getting fucked up every single time it rains.

Hello

[rodney dill]

Onstar?

Solution for next Rover

[cryptocom]

The next Rover should have wheels made of an alloy that can heat up enough to melt the soil and retain it's shape, or maybe a high power laser to heat up the soil, or something like that. Just like lightning can turn soil into glass, it may be possible to use this somehow to get the Rover out of jams like this. :)

to paraphrase a famous commerical

[beforewisdom]

"I've fallen into a sand dune and can't get up!"

Re:Southern Drivers

[La Fortezza]

I live in Dallas too!

Thank ${DEITY} it doesn't snow/ice down here much in the winter, it is truly terrifying to be on the road with morons doing pirouettes down I35 because they don't know how to slow down.

Re:Southern Drivers

[poofyhairguy82]

I live in Dallas... and everyone thinks they're driving magical cars that brake even better in rain than in dry conditions.

As a fellow Texan, I must inform you that most people do believe they are buying "magical cars"- pickum-up trucks. I mean, why else would you spend more money on a vehicle that will cost you more in gas in the long run? Because it makes them feel safer.

You hosed the forum!! Re:More info

[J05H]

I was gonna post to the Mars Forum when I got home, and you slashdott3d it!! You hosed the forum!! Thanks a lot, now I have to go do something productive.

Josh

They should fire a tachyon burst...

[Picass0]

...or try modulating the primary deflector.

Re:How come

[lanternfish610]

Si

Re:Southern Drivers

[Afrosheen]

Hey, they are safer..for only them. Most of the fatal accident reports in the newspaper go like this:

Family of 10 illegal aliens died around 2am when a driver of an SUV apparently fell asleep, crossed the median into oncoming traffic and hit the family's car head on. The car was reduced to a hubcap while the SUV driver awoke with a broken fingernail.

The worst part about this scenario is that it happens way too often and whatever that 4000lb truck hits get obliterated. TXDOT is starting to put up median barriers in some places because of this nonsense, particularly on i30 and george bush tollway.

Re:Southern Drivers

[poofyhairguy82]

Hey, they are safer..for only them.

Good point. That explains why everytime I'm on a highway in this state I'm getting passed by a truck whose driver must be morally opposed to speed limits. I always thought it was because of the influence of NASCAR, but it is alot more possible that a person who needs to waste twice as much resources to get from point A to point B as a person in a car for no good reason also wouldn't care about how dangerous their habbits are..

w..t..f..

[LilGuy]

Honestly.. for however many millions of dollars this damn thing cost, you think someone would've had some insight about that possibility. I've seen tyco r/cs that are impossible to get stuck, and they only cost $50.

Re:OnStar

[antispam_ben]

Should have gone with the "OnStar" option!

Not to be confused with StarJack.

Asinine to compare manned and unmanned missions

[AHumbleOpinion]

I do not wish to diminish the spectactular achievements of the rover missions but it is asinine to compare manned and unmanned missions.

Re:Asinine to compare manned and unmanned missions

[poserFish]

Nor do I mean to diminish the [past] achievements of the shuttle team, however one of the responsibilities of good engineers is to scrap the "un-doable" (unrealistic failure rates) instead of waisting money on "going through the motions" towards something that in all likelihood will never happen.

While I agree that you cannot compare man/unmanned missions, one fact still stands: They are not getting it done, where the rover team did.

Re:Asinine to compare manned and unmanned missions

[AHumbleOpinion]

You point is meaningless, when the shuttle was on it's second mission it was also 2 for 2. Your comments are degrading from asinine to just plain dumb. The shuttle and the mars rover, and unmanned and manned flight, are so different they can not be compared.

The real solution.

[Tatarize]

Have the other rover come by and give this guy a tow.

Tires

[gzunk]

My dictionary disagrees with you, but since I suspect that you're a citizen of the USA I won't castigate you - since I believe that everybody should be allowed to spell things the way they want.

tire (1) [tr]
(3rd person present singular tires, present participle tiring, past tired, past participle tired)
transitive and intransitive verb

1. grow or make somebody tired: to make somebody feel in need of rest or sleep, or to grow weaker and less energetic and feel a need for rest or sleep
2. exhaust somebody's interest: to lose interest in and become bored and impatient with somebody or something, or to cause somebody to do this

tire (2) [tr]
transitive verb (3rd person present singular tires, present participle tiring, past tired, past participle tired)
clothe somebody: to attire or adorn somebody or something (archaic or literary)

noun (plural tires) (archaic)
1. attire: clothing or attire
2. head covering: a woman's head covering or ornament

tyre

tyre [tr]
(plural tyres)
noun
1. hollow rubber edging: a circular hollow band of rubber fitted around the edge of a vehicle's wheel to ease movement and help absorb bumps in road surfaces.
It is filled with compressed air.
2. solid rubber edging: a circular solid band of rubber fitted to a wheel's edge, for example on prams and children's bicycles
3. metal edging: a band of metal fitted for reinforcement to the rims of wheels on various vehicles, for example handcarts and railway carriages

Re:SoCal drivers

[Minstrel Boy]

You don't need to slow down when it rains. You need to increase following distance when it rains. The fact that California drivers have absolutely no concept of following distance in the first place explains the problem.

KeS

Consult the source of all knowledge!

[cgenman]

"spell things the way you want" - 12
"spell things correctly - 3,600

Result - people should not be allowed to spell things the way they want.

"Land Rovers Rule" - 1,620 hits
"Land Rovers Suck" - 23 hits

Result - Land Rovers clearly rule

tires - 22,300,000 hits
tyres - 3,800,000 hits

Result - the word is spelled "Tires," except for the 10% of trucks that are gyrls.

Re:Southern Drivers

[Tteddo]

Oh my god!! That was hilarious!!!

AAA

[mu51c10rd]

Time to call the Martian Automobile Association? I recall one of the rovers being mysteriously fixed before (possible dirt devil I think)...

Re:Project H.E.L.L.O.

[Legion303]

Why don't you retarded fucks stop spamming this? Thanks in advance.

Re:Southern Drivers

[Afrosheen]

Hmm, you make a good point. I guess the primary target market for SUV's is people that don't give a shit about anyone but themselves. Which seems to be the emerging attitude among privileged americans. The rest of us drive cars.

More self-righteous moral preening

[ccmay]

I guess the primary target market for SUV's is people that don't give a shit about anyone but themselves. Which seems to be the emerging attitude among privileged americans. The rest of us drive cars.

How comical. Your smug distinction would be completely lost on the 90% of the world's population who have no car at all.

But don't let that stop you from patting yourself on the back. Knock yourself out.

-ccm

Re:More self-righteous moral preening

[Afrosheen]

Where'd you get your numbers? I don't believe 90% of the world doesn't drive.

Anyway my UID is lower than your UID. Take that. ;)

Overhaulin

[ArcSecond]

I agree. Overhaulin is a much better show than Pimp My Ride. Even better, though is American Chopper, where they fabricate lots of the stuff by hand.

The problem I have with Overhaulin is that is on the far extreme from Pimp: whereas PMR does nothing but superficial cahnges, Overhaulin leaves almost nothing of the original car... it is often only the chassis that makes it through the process into the new vehicle.

Why can't they have a show where they combine the Monster Garage budget concept with the Chip Foose design awesomeness?

Hell, it would actually be nice to have a show where they take badly "overhauled" cars and bring them back to stock condition. They could do a lot of background about the original design choices, the history of the model, even bring in some of the original people who worked on or designed it in the first place.

Re:Overhaulin

[bleckywelcky]

American Chopper and American Hotrod are alright, I watched a bunch of them when they first came out, but not anymore. They concentrate on the drama too much (which is funny sometimes, but not what I am looking for in shows like those) and not enough on the technical details.

Modern LandRovers will do "this" exactly once...

[leonbrooks]

...after that, you need a tilt-tray or a crane to remove them.

The older ones were too heavy to fly, but damn near indestructible.

The funny ones are Range Rovers. Here in Oz, the spinifex grass gets wedged in between the cover plates and the exhaust in various places, and then catches fire. To know what a spinifex fire is like, fluff up a bale of hay nice and loose, douse it well in turps and throw in a burning match. Hints: stand well back; don't do it near anything (else) flammable; kiss your eyebrows and lashes goodbye. Imagine this happening under your vehicle on a plain packed with the stuff from horizon to horizon and at least 200km from civilisation. Run upwind.

My favourite offroad toy (if I had the money for offroad toys) would be an Oka. A bit too heavy but carries lots and eats Unimogs and the like before breakfast as far as actually getting places is concerned.

Ugh

[Seiruu]

Nothing good will come out of the destruction of Martian's golf courses.

Good thing I'm not into golf, cause something tells me Earth's golf courses are going to "disappear" right after new waves of UFO's sightings soon.

Re:Modern LandRovers will do "this" exactly once..

[robertjw]

My favourite offroad toy (if I had the money for offroad toys) would be an Oka. A bit too heavy but carries lots and eats Unimogs and the like before breakfast as far as actually getting places is concerne

Got a good link for one of those? I'm always interested in anything that will eat Unimogs.

Oka links

[leonbrooks]

Well... www.oka.com.au seems a bit, kinda... obvious? (-:

This guy seems to like them, and ironically enough also links to Land Rover. Go figure. The Dual Cab seems to be most popular here in Oz, the Multi Cab (into which you can crush 12 people with some configurations!) is not much less popular, and fitted to carry 12 would be nice.

2 to 3 Hundred Years?

[LifesABeach]

So, what else do they have to do in the mean time? I just can't help but wonder if NASA isn't going to buy AAA's priemium service next year?