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Genetically Engineered Pets Hit the Market
psoriac writes "According to this article the Taiwanese Taikong Corporation is starting to sell "Night Pearls" - zebrafish that glow in different red and green patterns thanks to genes from jellyfish and marine coral. US sales are expected to follow."
...the world will know the glory of the five assed monkey." -Mephisto
I have often regretted my speech, never my silence.
-Xenocrates
Ever see the mouse with the human ear? I'd like to see a guinea pig with a human vagina. And no teeth.
I'd rather have a pressurized tank with naturally bioluminescent deep-sea species...
Trouble making decisions? Just flip for it.
Before all the fuss about "messing with nature", I'll just remind /. readers about the theory that most human attributes including pigmentation were selected by sexual, not environmental selection. I.e. we look like we do largely because, like glowing fish, we find ourselves "cute".
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This is a disturbing trend. The same problem exists with genetically altered pets as with genetically modified foods. There is the potential (and its likely) that the GM version is more hardy than the natural version; Therefore, if left to compete in the open environment (maybe some seeds spread to a different field, or some kid turns their fish loose in the sea) they could replace the natural species.
I don't know what the solution is, because there are many good uses for GM products, but its an issue that needs to be thought out carefully, instead of just saying "cool!"
Online Starcraft RPG? At
Dietary fiber is like asynchronous IO-- Non-blocking!
But the prospect of GM pets has outraged pet dealers.
Sounds like a PR problem.
Maybe they should hire Robert Novak to help their image- he lots of fish experience!
Creationists are a lot like zombies. Slow, but powerful and numerous. And they all want to eat our brains.
The first person to patent a dog that refuses to pee in the house will be gangbusters.
They just appear to be glowing in red and green patterns, if you fucking hippies would get off of the psychedellics you'd realize that they're not glowing at all!
Oh, wait, that's Phish, my bad.
Until Slashdot fixes the funny modifier, use insightful or interesting. The poster knows your intentions.
I didn't even know they'd made zebrafish yet, let alone coloured ones.
Sounds pretty neat to me, after all people have been genetically modifying animals for tens of thousands of years, except the tool has been breeding rather than genetics. It's called domestication. We didn't hear any of these hypocrites moaning about the evils of genetics when they invented Clamato, did we???
In about 10 years, La-Z-Boy is going to introduce the chair dog.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
"Perhaps I should have left nature alone with its' one-assed schematics"
and
"Hey! These pigs look like Mr. Garrison!"
std::disclaimer<std::legalese> sig=new std::disclaimer; sig->dump(); delete sig;
Well, this could be a good thing or a bad thing. On the one hand, if they could get some of the ideas to work out, such as pets that don't produce allergens, then that would make it possible for some individuals to own pets where it was not previously possible. On the other, this will incite riot among those wholly opposed to genetic engineering/modification. Personlly, I see this as a good thing, because I have known several people who have love cats and couldn't keep them for the fact that they were allergic. As far as the fish go, well the possibility of them being intermingled and breeding with natural populations is not very good, but I think that as long as steps are taken to prevent that from happening it is not really an issue. Personally, I wouldn't mind having a glow in the dark fish.
I have no regrets, this is the only path.
My whole life has been "UNLIMITED BLADE WORKS"
the scottish have been "injecting" sheep with their genetic material for ages, sadly to no avail. some day though, the noble scots will have their sheepwomen!!!!!!!!! =D
we had to shove christmas lights down their throats to make them glow.
-B
Also, many fish, such as goldfish, are just slightly different breeds of wild fish, such as carp. If an "engineered" fish escapes and breeds with a fish that's in our food chain and then we eat it, that could have important health implications. We need to be absolutely sure that genetically engineered products, such as grains, don't reach human mouths.
'bout 2 minutes, I expect.
"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." - A.B.
Put them in clear glass balls and sell them as Christmas ornaments! They'll be all the rage.
My Ass hurts.
Make it "glow" in the dark so she can find you...
-- everyones not everybody and neither is everybody like everyone.
Can I get a frickin "laser" implanted in their heads?
-- Some days you're the dog; some days you're the hydrant.
Maybe this will prevent further Nemo incidents by making fish easier to find.
Karma: Excer..ex...excellahhh...realll good (mostly affected by drinking not done in moderation)
First of all know one completely understands a gene strand. ok lets say we have our cool glowing fish soon to be the next pet must have. first of all in new enviroonments they will evolve. in a natrual environment they will evolve even more. Who says these things wont develope stingers. What happens when kids start releasing these things into the ocean and they start growing and adapting. People need to learn that implimentation and experiementation are two completely different things. pretty soon we will have the pet version of three mild island.
I'm totally in favor of genetic engineering for things like improving rice or wheat. These are clearly important, life-sustaining purposes that warrant taking on a little extra risk.... We need to be absolutely sure that genetically engineered products, such as grains, don't reach human mouths.
I expect better trolling out of you, sir.
Does anyone have the source code for this so I can recompile the kernel of the zebra fish I bought the other day?
Next step, mix and match and cut and paste! CatDog! Dalmations that won't go blind! Who wants a little "Compy" (procompsagnathus?) running around in their house? A pack of them would scare away burglers! Better yet, a furry trout, like in Brotherhood of the Wolf!
One more reason to keep an eye on your money.
Next thing you know, they'll genetecially engineer a carnival goldfish with a lifespan of more than a week...
It'll ruin the pet store industry, because you won't have to keep going back to replace the fish before the children find out...
Does this remind anyone the pet store from The 6th Day?
Sometimes theyâ(TM)re just injected with dye: Painted fish, which is pretty cruel.
I wonder how a buyer could tell the difference?
âas more than 90 per cent have been sterilizedâ I guess having your organs glow is a bit of a downside here too. Must make the remaining 10% glow relatively brighter.
Sometimes itâ(TM)s best to go low-tech, like Gibson says. (I hope you know where â¦)
And Iâ(TM)m sure the dolphin with the SQUID would agree.
Esteem isn't a zero sum game
I totally agree - it is certainly not a bad thing. This is only a more extreme form of the kind of "genetic engineering" that has been going on for thousands of years with cats, dogs, cattle, and other species that have close relationships with humans (either as food or pets). By selectively breeding pets, they enhance certain traits. Granted, this technology introduces genese that are not present in any form (most likley) in the host - I think that as long as there is no serious adverse effect to the organism then great. And if for some reason it does get into the wild, and decides to overrun the natural population - even better. It means that the gene that was introduced gave the new species a selective advantage over its predecessors. And isn't that what evolution (in any form, by any mechanism) is all about?
What I want is a genetically engineered lawn - the blades of grass never grow to 3" and stop, and there is built-in resistance to Round-Up.
This seems like a relatively harmless application of genetic engineering. The fish aren't radioactive or anything, they just glow pretty colors. However, if there's one thing we should have learned from Jurassic Park, it's that these things have a way of getting beyond control. What if they accidently activate a gene from an electric eel, and create a fish that can kill people? There are many other possibilities.
Not to mention the things that could be created if this technology is used for evil purposes. It would be one thing to be making these things in the US, but do we really trust Taiwan with this stuff?
In any case, we are now playing God, making new mutant species for our amusement. I fear for us.
Boromir, son of Faramir, King of Gondor and Minas Tirith
That they don't glow by themselves.
You need a blacklight fluorescent tube to make them glow. Just like that GM rabbit.
If someone engineered a "bioluminescent" pet, now, THAT would be awesome. It would beat having a bunch of fireflies in a jar just for a few hours.
How long until the utterly uninformed are afraid to go over to their friends houses, for fear of getting "zapped" by the "radioactive" fish?
Heck, I'm just waiting for human girls with blue hair and big bre...eyes, just like in anime!
(if this offends you, please look up the word "satire" before responding)
Playing God with Dog. Or was that the other way around...
I like lots of people. That doesn't mean I go carting them around the galaxy with me. --Dr. Who
No need for neon signs anymore, just put the menu on display.
...when we need him?
"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." - A.B.
I think there were genetic engineered pets in that movie. I recall snakes and stuff that were genetically engineered.
what? what I thought we were in the trust tree in the nest, were we not?
Glowing fish? Whats next, talking birds?????
I'm going out and buying one as soon as I can.
And that is just the start. Scientists believe Night Pearl bio-fish represent the shape of pets to come. Our household animals will come with extra genes that will stop them shedding fur or triggering allergic reactions. And when one dies, its owner will simply clone it.
Does that mean they can genetically modify dogs to keep them from shitting on the floor? Or will they modify them not to bark at the exact second I'm falling asleep?
How about a groundhog that eats your weeds, but not your vegitable garden. Or Robins that pay you rent if they build a nest under your deck, instead of attacking you or your pets just for wanting to be in your backyard.
(sorry, these are my current problems)
By reading this sig, you agree to the terms of my sig license.
I was visiting my friend and his new kitten and we were both playing with him, sniffling away... it was kind of rediculous! He took his allergy pill a little late, and I don't really take them, I just deal with the effects when I'm around pets. I would sure like an allergen-free kitten.
Hell, I'd like an allergen free me!
Spoon not. Fork, or fork not. There is no spoon.
Boohoo. I'd buy one of these fish. Be interesting to see how much this blackballing affects local availability.
and that is to have sharks with frickin' lazer beams attached to their heads!
NPR had an interview with a guy from Transgenic Pets, about allergy free cats. What was funny was that the interviewer asked the guy repeatedly what was the benefit to the animal and all he could say was that 'it didn't hurt the animal at all'
For selfish reasons, I've had my eye on Transgenic Pets, a company that is promising to deliver non-allergenic cats for allergy-sufferers like me. I know it is selfish, and I'm not sure I could ever go through with it, but it really sucks being a cat lover and never being able to go near them...
I doubt that glowing in the dark would benefit a zebrafish. Its very unlikely they'd be more attractive to the opposite sex here, zebrafish are not used to looking for glowing mates. Also, glowing in the dark could be quite a disadvantage if any predators are near.
In case of GM'd crops (resistance to pests etc.) the modified organism could well be superior to the wildtype.
But even if an advantage is introduced, its still questionable if replacing the wild type with the improved version is a bad thing.
What does humanity lose when all soybean plants become roundup-resistant? Would the world be a worse planet to live on if all zebrafish glowed in the dark?
What a c*** article! The author seems to have shoe-horned every alarmist notion in the tabloids' dictionary - cloning dead pets, outraged pet dealers (can you even imagine an outraged pet dealer?), the word 'fruit' in an article about fish, a totally unrelated issue (tropical fish that can live in cold water), and false selling (i.e. a kitten that doesn't look like it's clone-parent).
Personally, I think this is a great idea - normal tropical fish are pretty useless - but now they can be used to provide the sort of ambient lighting that was once the preserve of candles, child-safety lights and nuclear reactors. Pretty romantic alternative I would think!
Anyway, I'm sure natural selection would have produced the same result eventually - don't tropical fish live very close to the marine coral that contributes genes to the glowing fish? It is only a matter of time until one of the coral starts to get fresh ideas about a zebra fish ...
yeah, sure, as if they aren't already mutated to shit. how many people do you know have a tank of tropical fish that are even close to anything born naturally?
sure they may not be as exotic as 'glow in the dark' fish but almost everybody i know with an aquarium has some queer breed of goldfish with 5 tails and eyeballs half the size of the rest of the body or something equally ridiculous. i think these people are just doing the one-up by directly messing with genetics instead of doing it the old fashioned way, through selective breeding.
so i'm a fan of normal looking, more expensive, hopefully legally edible when they get big, ugly fishies.
I can think of a lot of situations where this could be used for more evil than good. Imagine if terrorists dropped a crate of genetically altered poisionous cats? The little friendly kitten your girlfriend brings home might do more than set off your allergies!
Sounds pretty neat to me, after all people have been genetically modifying animals for tens of thousands of years, except the tool has been breeding rather than genetics.
Yes, and people have been using cars for tens of thousands of years, it was called running.
Jeez, breeding for particular traits is NOT at all the same as inserting genes from other species.
You can't take the sky from me...
I'd like to see this gene added to cats and dogs. Don't you hate it when you trip over them in the dark?
I read somewhere about a french artist who worked with a bioengineering company to produce a rabbit that glowed green (using jellyfish genes as well). There was some sort of scandal about him not getting to take it home to film it interacting as a family pet which was what the whole project was about in the first place.
I'd like to see a pic of these fish though, or some video. I have no problem with a genetically modified pet. In the future, maybe we can have tigers that get no bigger than house cats, or something cool like that. Or photosynthetic pets that you don't have to feed! Just stick them outside for a few hours!
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It's just that yours is stupid.
Mine is a white collie.
NetInfo connection failed for server 127.0.0.1/local
no three eyed fish jokes?
New Zebrafish 1.1 glows in the presence of blacklights....
:D
Wait. Make that: New Zebrafish 2.0 now glows in the...
This can be construed as trolling can't it?
I assert that my comment is only my opinion, not that of any employer, past, present or future.
I was not being literal but now that you bring it up, I think it is actually possible to torture genes: all you have to do is frustrate the little buggers' will to reproduce by breeding them artificially so that instead of the best genes being selected, the freaky ones are. I can't think of a better (or more fitting) torture. Genes, after all, spend their entire existence torturing us, then they discard our worn-out carcasses and move on. YAY FOR GENETIC MANIPULATION!! REVOLT AGAINST GENE TYRANNY!!
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'One idea being explored is to add genes - taken from cold water fish - that will allow tropical fish to live in unheated aquarium,' said Derek Lambert, editor of Today's Fishkeeper.
Um.. Or you can add a heater.
If these fish were released into the wild I don't see them propagating the glow gene too much... As glowing in the dark isn't exactly a positive attribute to have when you're on the bottom of the food chain.
It's called AstroTurf (TM).
$#!^ happens, but why does it always have to happen to me???
I'm colorblind, you insensitive clod.
Nah, geeks get laid, it just takes them a while. The jocks get laid young, but they also die young in car accidents and gym showers. Yuck. We geeks invest in our brains, and kernel-hacking skills, then we get all the cute girls on the rebound. It's a strategy, like any other.
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Check out this page, some better pics of the fish and discussions about the implications of these little glowies.
is if these things actually get out in the wild.
"Fish", you ask. "How could they get out in the wild?"
Simple. People flush them down the toilet. Where I live, Carp are a big problem. Our lake is full of them, they disturb all the mud and turn the lake into more of a mud-puddle. How did they get there? People flushing goldfish down the toilet, apparently.
Now, that's bad. But imagine if The Great Barrier Reef got a couple of these genetically engineered monsters onto it. It's biological integrity would be instantly compromised; who knows what will happen with these fish in 5, 10, 50 years time?
-- james
1)Crossbread tomato with tobacco
2)Produce "tomacco"
3)...
4)Profit!
what with scientists just discovering a gene from GM corn skipped into a wheat field next door, you gotta wonder if somthing like that is possible with this stuff. I think we are messing with somthing we really don't understand. We've just begun to realize the depth and tangled nature of the gene pool. Who really knows what else we've opened up by moding for these seemingly harmless changes. Not that I am suggesting we stop exploration, but releasing GM things into the wild seems a bit premature.
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
The breadth of adaptations found in dogs today is the result of hundreds of years of human-guided selective breeding. In other words, we've been forcing nature to do a lot of crazy things with our pets for many many many years. How is this any different? So what if it happens in a test tube now? Nobody complained about the selective breeding and gradual engineering of different breeds of dogs. Oh wait, that was because it was a gradual process that fear mongerers couldn't measure.
I guarantee you that if breeders 50 years ago could have made a golden retriever that didn't shed they would have done it in a minute for financial gain.
I just have a hard time following arguments from people who are angry at GM products. Why should we turn our backs on science because of poorly defined religious/moral opposition OR unproven, unsubstantiated, knee-jerk claims about the health risks of "frankenfood" or GM animals.
Can't wait for the flame on this...oops.
...this is from that wackey region of the world that brings us things like tenticle rape, how long do you suppose until we see something like this? Except it'd be more feminie and have less teeth. Boobs would be nice too.
Grog 1 shot rum 1 teaspoon sugar (preferably superfine) Squeeze of lime juice Cinnamon stick Boiling water Stir
Yeah, you could really hurt the bottom line of pet stores that don't carry GM fish.
Oh my god! Not strange colored GM tropical fish in our waters! It'll be anarchy! Dogs and cats living together...
Look, while some GM pets might be an issue in this respect - more successful breeds crowding out the less successful - that's how nature works anyway. If you improve on nature, well, you've helped nature along. However, some glowing fish are just going to be easier targets. They'll be lunch before you can say "cyalume".
As for, say, pets engineered to not drop dander all over the place, it's likely that the dander is useful to them from a survival standpoint somehow, and they won't really be able to live in the wild. Proliferation of genes problem solved. Of course, if they are MORE successful, then it's an adaptation they would have developed eventually anyway. Since they haven't by this time (presumably they've had a while to make that advance) it will probably make them less successful.
Now I know I'm taking a rather simplistic view here but someone has to take this stance, and it might as well be me. Those of you who are afraid of everything GM just because it's GM, and who want to stop GM research, are only holding us back. Everything we learn from GM plants and animals applies to our future, it teaches us something about the way genecodes work. Stop trying to keep us from our birthright, and let us learn. Thank you.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
"Nutritious and delicious, tastes just like chicken!"
Hey, maybe now we can have a live action Charlie Tuna!
Comparing the taste of these fish to natural fish is like comparing apples and oranges. Oh, wait, now we can have both at the same time!
So what colour synthahol goes with synthetic fish?
Will you have to do a blush response test to find out if your fish is a replicant or not? Calling Chef Harrison Ford!
Maybe now they can genegineer some fish that, even when uncooked, taste like cooked fish. Sushi for the not-so-discriminating palate.
So, this is an honest question here.
Most people seem to believe that if these 'engineered' creatures get out, it would be doom somehow.
The only difference between 'genetically engineered' and not that is if WE do it intentionally or nature does it at random.
Because of the fact nature can introduce a new random change in genes to create something that does exist, is that reason to stop nature?
Not at all.
I aggree that if these things got out there would be changes. But no more than any other evolutionary change. Both are equally unpredictable.
If this was to happen at random in nature, it would be amazing and wonderful, but if we caused it due to a desire, its evil bad and distructive, for the same exact reason, because we (Humans) dont know what it will do.
Why is the reaction different?
Lets just pretend for a second here that we can control whatever is needed to cause humans to grow gills. Granted that type of thing is exponentially complex, and it has almost no chances of happening at random, or really of us creating that atleast for a long long time.. but stick with this for a sec.
Now, if we could do that to ourselfs, the same 'oh no its bad!' reaction would happen.
But if it was a natural mutation.. for the same thing.. What then?
Would it be bad then too?
Would it be ok?
Why?
So lets look at small changes.
GM grains. They are evil because, why again? They compete with life like everything else and happen to be better than the things they kill off?
What about if we could genetically change a human to not be allergic to something (Say, milk) is that as equally as bad if these changed humans get out and reproduce?
Right now we have both types of humans, the 'older' strains that are allergic to cows milk, and the 'newer' strain that isnt and can drink it.
Its a small gene change but it is no different if we do it or it 'just happens'.
A fish is a larger change. But its the same example, whats the differce if it just naturally happened? And who are we to say it never would?
Maybe thats just a far out way of thinking, but no one that reacts aginst genetic engineering can explain to me (or anyone it seems) WHY its so bad?
As just one more lifeform on this planet that came into being due to natures random gene changes, I cant see why ANY human is aginst changing genes, because your basically aginst your own existance.
And if it really is nothing more than a difference between 'nature did it at random' and 'we caused it ourself' then wearing glasses, getting braces, having a tooth pulled, having any medial operation, all of those are non natural changes to our design that you should be aginst too (Yet rarely are, never in my experence with others aginst genetic research so far.)
I'm not looking to change anyones mind, I'm looking for someone to try and change mine, in a way that makes sense.
Lil help?
sssssss
i see all this "implant a gene from another creature and it will wreak havoc on the ecosystem and stuff" comments
hello? do you know how stupid you sound?
look: there is informed, intelligent whistleblowing and alarmism, and then there is false, hysterical, fear of the unknown alarmism
i think "frankenfood" is a good term to use for gm food another parallel to the frankenstein legend: remember the stupid peasants who wanted to burn frankenstein in their fear of something that, essentially, in the story as written by mary shelley, was actually HELPING them?
do you not see how your uneducated fear of the unknown holds us back?
are you going to stop the part of human nature that is curious and tinkers and is basically what has gotten us as far as it has in civilization?
please.
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
He was a Canadian Farmer. So it would have been Canadian justice at its best.
FANTASTIC news!! A glowing Dragon fish would fit nicely in my all out transparent computer case! (No glowwires etc. needed) =8-)
So it won't explode when you...
1) Production of previously unknown toxins
2) GM organisms driving NE organisms to extinction
3) Genetic monoculture susceptible to parasites and climate
4) Hubristic scientists playing God calling down the wrath of Heaven
5) Gene transfer between similar existing species leading to any one of the above
So, to drag out and beat he proveribal Slashdot Glowing Dead horse..
I assume these glowing genes are patented by somebody?
Does this mean that if you buy these fish, breeding them will be illegal?
Do you think that once, rather than this just being something that affects farmers (in faraway states) and computer programmers (who the average person has to learn an entire new vocabulary just to understand what the programmers are talking about), once the whole you-can-patent-anything thing starts to affect "the average person" in a very clear, noticeable way-- "Here are some dogs, that you paid money for. But you're banned from letting them breed, because they happen to contain some invisible series of DNA codes that, despite being part of this dog's very life, is the intellectual property of some random corporation."-- do you think once we reach that point, maybe we'll finally start to see public backlash against how far the u.s. patent paradigm has gone?
Of course, if the people selling these fish want to keep their patents safe, they'd probably just make all the fish infertile. But then if all the fish are infertile, why are the environmentalists worried? Is it because they've seen "Jurassic park"? And what happens if some of the un-neutered versions somehow leak out on the black market (ebay)? Could they stop that? Is spaying a DMCA-applicable "method that effectively controls access to intellectual property"?
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
What the fuck is Clamato? Anyway, it is people like you who would rather do something and worry about the consequences later that cause problems like this.
For personal aquariums and the like I think this is an awsome idea. I think would be quite entertaining to turn of the lights and have glowing fish in the tank.
And in this case I think the likely hood of an escaped glowing fish having an advantage over natural fish somewhat unlikely. I would think the glow would tend to be a big sign saying "Food Here!"
I tend to take a fairly relaxed view of gentetic engineering. I think our chances of stopping it and our chances of stopping genetically modified species from populating the wild are both slim to none. Therefore the best course of action, I can see, is to figure out how to mitigate the detrimental impact.
Okay, so now that it's possible, I want a neon orange fish with a big ass wing on the back, and 'VTEC' printed on the scales. Aww, yeah.
And Nitrous boost! Give those dolphins & sharks something to talk about at the water cooler on Monday.
Did some googling found pictures and more information here : http://www.mongabay.com/external/glowing_fish.htm
Would designing a non-allergic human be more or less ethical than allergen free kittens? In my opinion, I think designing humans is better than designing everything to suit humanity. But then that also raises it's own problem.
I'm stumped, I'm not really sure which people would consider worse? How do you feel?
E
Bull Dog + Shitzu = Bull-Shit
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to Sparkle Motion.
The Taikong Corporation has info on the fish on their Azoo site. Unfortunately, it appears to only be in Chinese, but you can get the idea from the pictures.
Here are several stories and pictures of the fish.
The pictures (and other sites such as this one) imply that they are "fluorescent" fish, i.e., they glow when bathed in UV light, as opposed to fish that glow without a UV light source.
That's what's coming next. You can look at and admire the fish only two times before they float to the surface and die. I'll bet SCO will be in there somewhere trying to sue for IP infringement.
The virus is a genetically engineered strain of the herpes virus from a mouse, and has been modified to induce an immune reaction in female mice around the egg, causing them to become infertile for around 6 months.
Obviously this virus is targeted at mice only, and is aimed at reducing (if not eliminating) the frequency and severity of mice plagues in Australia.
If successful it would remove the need for the literal tonnes of highly poisinous rodenticides that are now applied around farms, grain silos etc. Not to mention the economic benefit from an increase grain harvest quantity and quality.
The results of an unsuccessful trial are left to the imagination of the reader ..
They are now nearly at the stage where a permit is to be applied for that would allow for field trials of this virus.
Of note is that last time similar field trials were undertaken (of a Calaci (sp?) virus) for rabbits, the virus escaped from the control area and rapidly spread across the entire continent. Luckily it appears to have had no adverse affects on native wildlife, although several childen lost pet rabbits to the virus (a vaccine is now available to protect the "Fluffys" of this world).
You can read more about the virus in this transcript from a local Science show.
Should make for interesting debate when/if the permit application becomes reality.
another sign of the apocalypse... or brisk sales for americans!
--------
Free your mind.
The problem there was with him being held accountable for patented genes getting into his fields, not with genetic engineering itself. If he was not cuplable for the genes getting there, there should have been some relief for destroying the crop.
And why blame just "American justice"? He was Canadian - couldn't Canada become involved that an American company was spreading mutations without permits? (Or whatever - my point is he should have had other options if it wasn't his fault, though I really don't know for sure.)
R: That voice. Where have I heard that voice before? B: In about 365 other episodes. But I don't know who it is either.
Here I spend all this time perfecting my sychophant technique in preparation for our robot masters and it will more than likely be rendered moot when we're all killed off by mutant housepets gone wrong.
Why do I even bother.....
So, to drag out and beat he proveribal Slashdot Glowing Dead horse.. I assume these glowing genes are patented by somebody? IANAL But I don't think gene patents apply to living animals Does this mean that if you buy these fish, breeding them will be illegal? Gene patents only apply to drugs and the like, anythign otherwise would be against all sorts of laws regarding cruelty to animals and the like. Do you think that once, rather than this just being something that affects farmers (in faraway states) and computer programmers (who the average person has to learn an entire new vocabulary just to understand what the programmers are talking about), once the whole you-can-patent-anything thing starts to affect "the average person" in a very clear, noticeable way-- "Here are some dogs, that you paid money for. But you're banned from letting them breed, because they happen to contain some invisible series of DNA codes that, despite being part of this dog's very life, is the intellectual property of some random corporation."-- do you think once we reach that point, maybe we'll finally start to see public backlash against how far the u.s. patent paradigm has gone? Again animals aren't software patents cannot apply against a living being, mind you that doesn't stop the pet makers from sterilising all the animals which could be a "technological measure" and thus using the DMCA to stop anybody from attempting to clone the animal, this could also stop anybody from pulling the same gene sequence and making their own, but it doesn't affect breeding as breeding is uncontrollable unless its through a technological measure such as sterilisation. Of course, if the people selling these fish want to keep their patents safe, they'd probably just make all the fish infertile. But then if all the fish are infertile, why are the environmentalists worried? Is it because they've seen "Jurassic park"? And what happens if some of the un-neutered versions somehow leak out on the black market (ebay)? Could they stop that? Is spaying a DMCA-applicable "method that effectively controls access to intellectual property"?
Can they make Cowboyneal clones that glow in the dark?
anyone interested in topics of this flavor, may want to check out the discovery series that aired last nite. re-airing on Saturday, June 21, at 4. Walking With Cavemen also, there is a very interesting book on human evolution that i read recently, and i highly suggest it. it's fiction/sci-fi, not factual. Darwin's Radio, and a review
Finally maybe there will be a cheaper mainstream version of the Bonsai Kitten! I can't wait to get mine.
My subtext is just a figment of your imagination.
For that matter, cattle and sheep are engineered as well. As are wheat and corn. So, really, this has been going on since about the time we as a species said, "Hey, this hunter/gatherer gig, it's pretty over-rated. Lets try staying in one place for a while."
So, now we're using more advanced technology. It's powerful, and it's dangerous if used improperly, but then so are lots of other advanced technologies. You think we couldn't have bred fish like this "naturally" given a sufficient amount of time and motivation?
Do not touch -Willie
second post actually if you're browsing at -1
"Jeez, breeding for particular traits is NOT at all the same as inserting genes from other species."
I'm not so sure about that. We have created hybrid animals through selective breeding of differing species that wouldn't exist in the wild, such as tigons, ligers, and all sorts of equine hybrids.
I think the big deal here is that they are not only taking genes from different species, but also different classes, orders, etc.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It's just that yours is stupid.
I'm a moogle, so I take offense.
.... KUPO!*
Mog(tm) is my best friend, and a trademark of Square Enix CO, LTD. To claim he descends from either monkey or dog is so demeaning, it makes me so.... ooooh
*: @%!$@^#
Black holes are where the Matrix raised SIGFPE
http://www.mongabay.com/external/glowing_fish.htm
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire
When can I get a glow-in-the-dark cat?
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
http://www.mongabay.com/external/glowing_fish.htm
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire
I wonder if they engineered them to taste like chicken.
"Not knowing when the dawn will come, I open every door." - Emily Dickinson
R: That voice. Where have I heard that voice before? B: In about 365 other episodes. But I don't know who it is either.
You can buy them at eco-sphere.com. I saw these in person, they are really cool but too bad everything dies after a year or so.
...a Beowulf clust- nah, Once you hooked the fiber up they probably wouldn't swim around anymore.
Please go look at a Chihuahua and an Irish Wolfhound, and tell me again about genetic manipulation. And creating new breeds named Peekapoo and Labradoodle is as much an abomination as Mephisto's five-assed monkey.
Then, take a look at the problems rampant in the pet population:
Who wouldn't want the genes fixed?
Design for Use, not Construction!
I see two distinct problems with this "product". And it is a product to be sold and controled by its patent holder.
Genetically modifed creatures such as this fish are not likely to get any real quaranteen time. The real impact on the customer, nature and society in general will not be know. Remember ther falitiimide (Phalitdamide? damned if I know how it is spelled) problems of the 60s. They also thought they had a good idea. These things need to be tested, tested and then quaranteened for a long period of time.
The second problem is the ownership problem. In the past plants and animals have been cross bred to produce new versions that show particular combinations of traits. Whether animal or plant this has usually occured from the effort of groups of people to improve their lives. No one person / organization owned a "patent" on an imported type of organism.
Behold Monsantos gene modifications (I have forgotten if it is corn or wheat or whatever). A believe the news article said some plans from the Monsanto seed were found in a ditch outside his fields. Monsanto has sucessfully stoped home from planting his own seed because it may now contain some of their patented genes. This farmer had spent decades breeding the crop he wanted and boom he lost all rights to it because another farmer did not control his planting well enough.
Until we have government (politicians) that is no longer by the multinationals, of the multinationals and for the multinationals this problem cannot be solved. Regulation for the protection of the public is one of the real responsibilites of the government.
In either of the two cases outlined above, the financial concerns of the corperations doing the gene modifications will always try to get them out to the public before the consiquences on society and nature are understood even at miniumal level.
Will can be seen even in bacteria as they try to enter your system, in worms as they escape the rain, in any living thing that strives to play out its genetic destiny. Genes are not dumb little chemicals that just record your wonderful mind in GTAC. No, they are the masters of the living universe, their every twist making or breaking our puny lives.
Sig for sale or rent. One previous user. Inquire within.
...till the day I can clone myself and send my clone to work and dedicate myself to reading slashdot, I bet I can make the first post all time.
They are same ones who gave us that one fish that could walk and kill birds: The Snakefish!!!!!!
"Jeez, breeding for particular traits is NOT at all the same as inserting genes from other species."
THe US FDA disagrees, saying that no food can be labelled as "GM-Free", because they consider selective breeding to be genetic modification.
Anyone remember those dalmation mice from the tenebaums. Genetically engineered spots.
www.samuraidreams.com - My Blog
www.samuraifiles.com - Get Some Videos Here
two fish
red fish
blue fish
Black fish
blue fish
old fish
new glow-in-the-dark zebra fish(tm)
Copyright Dr. Seuss 1960
THe US FDA disagrees
Yeah, the same morons who claim that MSG is safe (I would SO like to beat their face in with a brick...safe my ass!) and that pot is as dangerous as heroin.
The US FDA does not have my respect. They clearly base their "scientific" rulings on what would most benefit certain industries rather than what is actually safe or not.
It just so happens that GMfood (sounds like an edible car...nevermind) is a big industry in the US, and what a surprise, the FDA does nothing that would stand in the way of billions of dollars of genetically modified profit (glow in the dark cash anyone?).
You can't take the sky from me...
I know we're probably supposed to be against this, but this is just really cool. Imagine: four, five, even six-assed monkeys!
Tell me when they start selling Mogwai.
God, Schmod! I want my monkey-man!
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
I had always known them to flee from people and animals, so I didn't mind when I saw them building the nest under the deck. (it's about 10' off the ground). But first we weren't allow to use the deck, then we weren't allowed to be near the nest on the ground, then it was that half of the yard, then it was the whole yard. The dogs would get clawed in the back while doing their business.
;-)
We learned we could fend the robin off with the garden hose, but we must've looked like idiots to the neighbors.
Finally one of the dogs got revenge this morning. One of the baby robins flew right to the dog, and the dog killed it. Kind of sad, but no wonder the parents are so defensive, baby robins are really stupid!
By reading this sig, you agree to the terms of my sig license.
1) 2-foot elephant
2) "Pocket Grisly" (TM)[yeah, i know...you've got my pocket grisly right there]
3) Giant Gambian Rat (oops...nevermind...we already have those)
4) "Tabletop Tiger" (TM)
5) My First Mammoth (from Galoob)
Does anyone know where you can order one, now? I'm highly interested in acquiring one as a status symbol.
Yes, I know, I am terrible person. This will ruin fish for all future generations. Someday bioluminescent fish will be our overlords, but for the time being, anyone have a url?
"During the winter, I'll just stand outside with an aerosol can. *pssshhhhhhhhhhh* Where's this global warming I keep hearing about? Fuck the grandkids, I'm cold now!"
....re-arranging the spots on a Dalmation so that I can sell advertising space on them.
Michael Crighton
Go back and reread the first 2 Chapters of Darwin's treatise on Natural Selection. It is all about humans as the major force in natural selection through domestication.
As someone who has taken several courses on Genetic Engineering with scientists deeply involved in the field, I can say that there is little consensus on what exactly 'Genetic Engineer' means, as a term.
There are natural processes by which genes from one organism get inserted into genomes of another. Are you saying that this is not GE? Does it have to occur in a test tube to be GE? How can the location where the transgenetic meeting occurs determine the risk to the ecosystem?
-R
Remember the pet-shop sketch?
M Well what do you mean? I want a cat.
S Listen, tell you what. I'll file its legs down a bit, take its snout out, stick a few wires through its cheeks. There you are, a lovely pussy cat.
M Its not a proper cat.
S What do you mean?
M Well it wouldn't miaow.
S Well it would howl a bit.
I got to get me one.
GEnetic manipulation rules. I can't wait to get corn that is packed with even more vitamins. With anyt luxk we can get cows that are large from genetics and get away from what they are currently fed.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Next we get glow in the dark fish.
Whats next? Here are my predictions for the future:
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep in order to gain what he cannot lose."
what about corn? to different grasses suddeny creat a new grass called maize, which becomes what we know of as corn.
Corn has been genetically modified through human intervention for about 3500 years.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Yeah, I know it's not going to glow if it's dead - that's how you would be able to tell if the fish is REALLY fresh. (was alive few minutes before it was served)
Oh, I want cool toys from Blade Runner as well.
Wow are you wrong about pigmentation.
"most human attributes including pigmentation were selected by sexual, not environmental selection"
No. Skin pigmentation is due to 1) the amount of UV exposure in a given environment. UV is needed to synthesize vitamin D (this comes from Farnsworth Loomis' work at Brandeis in 1967). Humans in areas with less sunlight needed less pigmentation in order to get enough Vitamin D. 2) in 2000, Nina Jablonski and George Chapliln of the California Academy of Sciences added to this the idea that melainin protects the body's stores of the B vitamin Folate. Folate deficiencies during pregnancy lead to birth defects. So humans living in high UV locations evolved higher amounts of pigmentation to protect their Folate.
This is all detailed in a Scientific American article (Jablonski and Chaplin 2002. Skin Deep, Sci Am 287: 74-81) and discussed in the book DNA Science by David Micklos and Greg Freyer.
How much you figure they will cost?
Technology, the cause of and solution to all of life's problems.
From mid-February:
http://publish.gio.gov.tw/FCJ/past/03021481.html
It goes into a lot more regarding the history of domestic fish and the market conditions under which this was developed.
From the article
"And that is the scenario that worries British aquarium enthusiasts. 'One idea being explored is to add genes - taken from cold water fish - that will allow tropical fish to live in unheated aquarium,' said Derek Lambert, editor of Today's Fishkeeper. 'Just imagine what would happen if they got released. You could end up with strange coloured GM tropical fish in our waters.'"
In the context of these glow in the dark fish this seems like nonsense. They would be at a huge competitive disatvantage and wouldn't last a week. May as well have the glow spell out EAT ME.
Sure, it's a general consideration but not a very big one. In most cases it would be about as likely as someone's chihuahuas getting loose and displacing the timber wolf population....
-- your Web browser is Ronald Reagan
" If an "engineered" fish escapes and breeds with a fish that's in our food chain and then we eat it, that could have important health implications."
These fish are carrying GFP (green fluorescent protein), a naturally occuring protein found in a wide variety of jellyfish (which are eaten in some cultures) and other sea creatures. It has no known toxic effects.
Furthermore, Zebrafish are tiny little bony things. We don't eat them. They are not able to mate with fish from different species (hence the definition of species), so your fears in this case are unwarranted.
Get plenty of responses. But I think your argument is a little one sided. My point would be we are all ignorant of the long term effects of rampant and unchecked use of genetic modifacation. And that alone is enough reason to consider moving carefully. Progress, sure but don't deny your own ignorance.
The consequences of a such a young (and cash hungry) industry industry could be exceptional. Thats worth questioning. Look at the pharmacuetical industry and remember that their reach is somewhat limited. I mean do you really trust the pharmaceutical industry?
Genetics as a science may be a little different as a industry.
Quack, quack.
you have hype and fear driving your argument, not reason, don't you see that?
you have to PROVE to me a bad effect of say- glowing fish
by bringing up zebra mussles in the grea tlakes, you are inciting fear, not reason
the gm crowd does not have to DISPROVE every SCIENCE FICTION scenario you can think of ad nauseum befor proceeding
is that not the most prudent way to approach gm?
your way is driven by being afraid of what lies under every rock in your path
my way is to proceed, and be smart and studious and rational about the POSSIBLE negative consequences, not let the POSSIBLE negative consequences leave you cowering in fear and to never take a step forward
you proceed assuming they are already there
where are the horrible disasterous ecosystem effects of glowing fish?
i mean, c'mon! really!
have some faith in mother nature, she brought us this far
your arrogance is that you assume the world and its ecosystems are fragile and weak and YOU have some sort of secret knowledge about how mankind is going to kill off all of gaia with what... glowing fish?
please!
have some faith!
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
jeez, how many times can that joke be overused??? you've got to get some new material
You cannot go against nature. Because when you do, Go against nature, It's part of nature too. -Love and Rockets
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
ok, so let me get this straight... you *NOT* a naked supermodel?
GFP (Green Fluorescent Protein) was first discovered in the early 1960's by Osamu Shimomura and Frank Johnson at Princeton. In 1994, Doug Prasher and Martie Chalfie at Columbia isolated the gene and started putting it into other organisms. It's been in use for transgenic organisms since then, so we're talking nearly 10 years. The artist you refer to is Eduardo Kac, a total hack and a fraud as far as I'm concerned. He didn't actually do any of the work involved in making the green bunny, he just claimed it as his own after it was made, Furthermore, he continually shows faked photoshopped pictures of a green bunny glowing. In truth, the protein is in the rabbit's skin, not its hair, so it would have to be shaved to be visualized. Not quite as cute that way though.
Can be found on this page with a collection of news articles about them:
http://www.mongabay.com/external/glowing_fish.htm
It seems that they're not bio-luminescent as the first article indicates, but rather they simply have florescent protiens from coral and jellyfish that react prettily to UV.
.... comes after two years of zebrafish's success in the market.
I don't know if it is, but that reads like a perfect troll.
;-)
the onus is on someone to PROVE a bad effect
Which Orson Wells type future did this happen in?
Quack, quack.
How exactly do you propose that freshwater living Zebrafish inhabit the Great Barrier Reef? And for that matter, think about it, these fish fluoresce. How does that make them any worse than a normal Zebrafish released into a foreign environment? Would the carp in your lake be any worse if they happened to glow under UV light?
I do fall in the uninformed but seeking info group, however I NEVER CONSIDERED myself a soup (consume ?). My Bro and Sis are a geneticist and a molecular biologist so I do have some background info.
Somehow you being among the 'WE' that claims to grasp the complexity of the situation does very little to resolve my cencerns.
A very wise person once said, the more you know, the more you know you DON't know.
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
There already is one. It was made as a documentary, I think. It's extremely funny - if you liked Bunuel's "The Land Without Bread" or "Spinal Tap" check it out.
-- your Web browser is Ronald Reagan
http://cornell-magazine.cornell.edu/Archive/2002ju laug/depts/Currents1.html
What is it did breed and managed to make a previously edible species of fish inedible?
Thats the kind of situation that I'd be curious about. They may be relatively unimportant traits and still have some far reaching effects.
Quack, quack.
Well first it was the ugly and unnatural "parrotfish" crossbreed, then it was dye-injecting in the "painted glassfish", now it is the glowy gene. To me, fishkeeping is about keepiong and enjoying exotic natural species. These loud mufflers and flashy fuzzy dice are going to bring a whole new crowd in my pet shop. WTF is next, "The Fast and the Furriest"?
I want to see genetic modifiactions that are at least interesting (this is close, but is it glow-in-the-dark of UV luminated?). I want my little girl a have a frightningly intellegent playmate or at least ludicrisly shaped. ;-)
Bio-fantasy pets! Chimera? Mini-dragon? You know it's gonna happen.
Quack, quack.
And all the fish in the nuclear plant's coolant outlet pond. :)
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
so ALL my cats had 6 fingers and human looking eyes - that would be dope - I have no real foundation as to why it woudl be cool, just that it would make everyone go "What the f----"
Ave Molech Setting
Here's an article with a picture of the fish, or at least some glowing fish:
http://www.mongabay.com/external/glowing_fish.htm
Now, if they can only do that to me... Hey, anything for those raver ladies...
"BEHOLD, CORN!!" - Dr. Weird, ATHF
The jellyfish protein introduced as a transgene in different organisms is known as green fluorescence protein, or GFP. There are actually quite a few derivatives of this protein with different spectral properties (e.g. see here http://www.clontech.com/gfp/excitation.shtml). Since the late 1990's, many researchers have engrafted GFP into the genome of mice as well as zebrafish to study developmental processes. GFP has also been used to label and track HIV-1 in light microscopy studies (see here, here, here, and here). Because of the protein's stability and ability to fluoresce under physiological conditions, it has been enormously useful to track live processes at the molecular level in real time. In short, this molecule rocks.
The researcher at NTU hasn't really done anything new or innovative, and patent rights to this molecule and its applications are in part held by Columbia University (at least they used to be). Thus even if a firm is interested in these glow-in-the-dark fish, they're likely going to pay significant royalties to be licensed to do so.
--
Wanna be a troll?
Just defend an artist's rights to their own music!
Shouldn't this read:
--
Wanna be a troll?
Just defend a giant corporation's rights to a bunch of artists' own music!
So, does this mean I will no longer be able to buy my Bonsai Kitten's anymore?
You say things that offend me and I can deal with it. Can you?
"I really wish the so-called "environmentalists" would stick to actually doing something to help the environment, like supporting lumbering (since they will replant the trees)"
They cut down a diverse woodland. They replant with monoclonal trees that will be quick/easy to harvest next time. It's a tree farm, not a forest. It's probably better than clear cutting, but not much.
-- your Web browser is Ronald Reagan
Hysterical is still better (IMHO) then indifferent. They may not understand the science, but they don't have to to understand that this has some potentially far reaching implications. And when industry becomes involved (which it is) it takes a lot of fire power. They may be uninformed but I'd rather have them and move slowly then not and be brash.
I think a lot of them would even agree that as a science its important (can't speak for all of them though).
Quack, quack.
People have been making hybrids, such as mules, for millenia. By definition, this combines genes from different species.
Species are simply classes of organisms which breed true. There is no natural law that says "genes shall not be exchanged between species."
In fact, scientists use natural organisms to pull out and insert genes, so this kind of exchange can happen naturally, although compared to mutation it is probably only a minor factor in evolution.
In future, there will be no need for aquarium lights - fluorescent fish will provide their own illumination.
WTF?? this sounds like one of those wacky 50's predictions "in the future glowing atomic lights will light up and heat our homes at no cost!"
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
I also thought I had seen something about green glowing mice before on /.. Did not know about the HIV-1, pretty cool. BTW, I believe you mean Green *Fluorscent* Protein (GFP).
Your misunderstanding me. I said to have them and move slowly. This can not be stopped, the benifits are too great and that will be seen. Every new science encounters some resistence this should be no different.
Quack, quack.
In a few years when this catches on, we'll hear about a high-price sushi restaurant with nothing but blacklights and glowing fish.
Mmm...carcinolicious...
Because he can think he must think. The onus is on us, to do no harm.
Quack, quack.
If they made a catdog, would it chase itself?
How about a poopless puppy?
Why would you?
Quack, quack.
You can patent a process / technique, but you can't just patent arbitrary bits of information (like the "glowing" genes). In any case, the "glowing" genes have been around for quite a while; the researchers didn't invent the genes but stole them from another creature. The only things they might be able to patent, if anything, are some of the techniques they used to insert these new genes into the GM pet. More simply, you could patent a specific "method for making fish glow", but you couldn't patent "glowing fish"
It should be perfectly fine to breed your own GM pets (assuming that's possible) - plenty of prior art for breeding :)
Good point. Arguably, this is the benefit to any domesticated animal - protection and nurture by humans. Granted, some of them are eaten later but as a species, cows, pigs and chickens are astonishingly successful, due to domestication by us. Being "domesticable" was a fitness boost for their wild ancestors, compared to other species which were hunted or merely eradicated for the sake of convenience. The book "Guns, Germs, and Steel" provides some useful data on which species benefited this way through human history.
Freedom: "I won't!"
You'd have to be pretty ignorant to say that cross-species genetic infusion between boned fish and corals or jellyfish is at all natural, or normal. This is very new, how can you deny that? I agree with you, the dangers are probably overstated, but to say that this is ho-hum breeding on steroids or something equivalent is just wrong.
You can see a photo of the fish here.
my kid is going to be able to sleep with this in his room!
TROGDOR! BURNINATOR!
-EB
Do you ever walk alone like a drifter in the dark?
What you say is fact - making GFP fusion proteins is not scientifically novel or interesting. However, the original post is notable because this would be the first direct access the general public would have to such organisms. Society at large doesn't really care about recombinant engineering for scientific purposes, but people will take notice if they see glowing fish at the petstore. Even more than GM foods, prevalence of this organism in fishtanks across the world will spark arguments.
But even if an advantage is introduced, its still questionable if replacing the wild type with the improved version is a bad thing.
What does humanity lose when all soybean plants become roundup-resistant? Would the world be a worse planet to live on if all zebrafish glowed in the dark?
That's just it-- we won't know until it happens. Which means we will no longer be able to decide which outcome we want: a world with in-the-wild GE zebrafish that glow in the dark, or world without. At least here in the U.S., GMOs do not undergo any special testing -the USDA and FDA consider them no different than the original source species, "same as." This is the result of Bush Senior's and Clinton's clearing away of red tape, so that biotech investors would see bigger profits faster.
Whether we will pay for with a fucked-up ecosystem in the end is only a matter of time. Once a GMO escapes to the wild, there's no turning back.
Big Daddy, Johnny, Burp, Aunt Zelda, Scott, Slurp, Big Momma
Here is a quote from an related article... " They struck up a deal to sell the fish, breeding them at the company's "genetic fish stock bank" in a Taipei suburb. They sterilize the fish, so they won't contaminate wild populations if they are somehow set free. Prof. Tsai says he has been able to sterilize about 90% of the fish, which he says is safe enough. "
Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
As if some of the man-cultured hybrid fish are bad enough, now we have to battle genetically engineered fish. I'm all for GE for crops...well for the most part... patents suck.
The Flowerhorn cichlid (fish) hybrids have invaded the aquarium hobby enough that now you pretty much have to get specimens from proven and trusted breeders and importers for Amphilophus trimaculatum.
Think about it, there are glow in the dark lures, but now we can use actual glow in the dark fish for bait! What about where glowing lures are illegal? Would it sill be legal to use a glow in the dark fish? After all, it is live bait.
The preceding post was not a Slashvertisement.
when you say "...to contain some invisible series of DNA codes that, despite being part of this dog's very life..." i can't help but wonder...
If good ol' homo sapiens begins adopting genetic modifications and those mods are patented/copyrighted....does that mean that bio-tech companies could concievably hold patents on YOUR body?
Belief that Perspectives matter more than Facts = Mark of the Truly Ignorant
I'm not saying it's natural. I'm saying it's a permutation (no pun intended) of something that occurs in nature. The lines are sketchy where something becomes 'genetically engineered'. In this case, I would agree that the result is, but I don't think the lines are as black and white as many people like to draw them.
Is this more GE than the plant that incorporates a part of the genetic code of a virus. Why? Because it occured in a lab? That's not a reasonable argument. Because it's two species that would never swap genes in nature? Now you're getting closer...but I think that still might be splitting hairs.
-R
-R
And in other news: Cannabis-based drug to aid MS sufferers
Speaking as a biochemist, I will say that I have some serious doubts about GM foods. I think we need to deal with two separate issues, though.
When messing around with genetic engineering in the lab, it is possible to have good protocols that prevent the release of GM organisms into the biosphere. For this reason, I do not think that genetic manipulation should be restricted in science (except maybe for modifying humans).
However, once you begin making GM organisms for release into the biosphere, there are many potential dangers.
I am not saying that there is NO place for GM foods in our fields, but we need to think carefully about the potential effect on the biosphere.
One problem that currently exists is the destruction of coral reefs by people harvesting pet fish (via dumping cyanide? in the water). Creating a market for tank farmed fish would SAVE lots of wild species/areas.
The major problem that currently exists in nature is alien species, not GM species. GM could solve this problem by moving customers to alien species that can't survive in the wild. The problem with these fish is that they are not GM enough. Any Zebra fish (glowing or not) is a potential risk alien species invasion.
If we had a real market for GM pets, maybe they could spend more money making really really good versions, instead of fighting lawsuits etc.
ie, with GM fish, how about some options like this.
They could be engineered to require a dietary supplement that they could not get enough of in the wild. (ie delete their genes that make vitamin C?)
They could be engineered to need a really weird PH level in the water, or for the eggs to mature
Maybe the eggs could be engineered to only produce males at 1 temp extreme, females at another temp extreme (ie arctic vs tropical).
Maybe the eggs would require warm incubation (ie turtle eggs) on land.
They could be engineered to be unable/unwilling to cross with related wild species.
Hell, for all I know, you could engineer them so that males could only survive in very salty water, and females in fresh. Human would be required to get sperm from males to females (ie straining the water from one tank, then 'polluting the water in the other tank'
Think of all the species that could be saved if there was a GM cat that ate vegetarian food pellets and didn't hunt. Cats wipe out many native species
And start making hot chicks who become helplessly aroused when exposed to discussions such as LILO vs. GRUB, whether Episode IV should be released on DVD as-is or digitally remastered first, and what the best strategies for home brew are. Don't tell me nerds aren't at the heart of this project, quit fscking around with the damn fish and get on it!
"Stop throwing the Constitution in my face, it's just a goddamned piece of paper!" - George W. Bush Nov. 2005
Funny how the /. editors wait til somethign's no longer newsworthy.
It's not clear that anyone in the general public would have access to such organisms - yet. As I mentioned, Columbia holds the patent rights to GFP and commercial applications have been strictly limited. Becton-Dickinson (owners of Clontech) are a major and possibly sole commercial licensee. If you try and order GFP (I have and work with it in many applications), the release ones signs is quite restrictive. My suspicion is that this company which saw the GFP-fish of the NTU researcher have not been made fully aware of the commecial restrictions in use of GFP and its derivatives. Now that it's in the popular press, I suspect that they won't get too far. Moreover, the researcher might also get slapped down to extent for attempting to market this (do you think that this not-so-new-idea hasn't been run by Columbia before?). Nonetheless, I do think your concerns are valid. There are likely places in the world where US patent protection is not that strong, and this is locally feasible biotechnology.
If the species is more hardy than the original then why shouldn't it replace the original? Consider it engineered evolution. I'd let loose some glowing bass if they had some that weren't sterile.. it'd make the local lake much more fun.
:)
If the original species really is fitting to survive it'll survive anyway. There are already many different kinds of fish in the lake. I doubt adding one more would wipe out any other species. Besides I'd think glowing fish would quickly be eatten by bigger fish.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
There are natural processes by which genes from one organism get inserted into genomes of another. Are you saying that this is not GE?
Indeed, natual processes are not engineering, big fat DUH!
People are concerned about the consequences of a new technology. Its not like corporations have never poisoned the environment and destroyed ecosystems for profit before, there are a LOT of reasons for concern.
Just because the words "Genetic engineering" can be applied, sorta, to things we've been doing for long doesn't mean that the thing people actually mean (taking bits of dna from one critter and putting it in another in a lab) when talking about it is safe.
You can't take the sky from me...
me want! me want!
me glow you long time!
hehehe
hmmm it must be in the beer....
-- No Sig is a Good Sig
When I read the blurb for this story, I had a feeling of deja vu, as just two days ago I hopped over to the Protein Data Bank, mostly just so I could verify that I had correctly set up my Chime plug-in to work in Opera. There I found that they had chosen the aptly-named "Green Fluorescent Protein" as their Molecule of the Month, and had an informative article about its mechanism and uses. This is the protein from the jellyfish (Aequorea sp.) inserted into the zebrafish- what's really interesting is that the jellyfish actually also makes a bioluminescent protein called aequorin that emits blue light. which it uses to charge the chromophore in GFP and causes it to emit lower-energy green light. UV light from the sun has been shown to have a similar effect on purified GFP.
"FDA staff reviewers expressed concern about the number of patients who were left out of the study because they died."
Hey! That would be a great idea. Need to pay someone in low light conditions? Boom, your money gives enough light to tell what denominations.
Mugging someone in a dark alley and what to count your haul? Works there too!
-B
When do we get glowing coffee and decaffeinated fish?
I have nothing to allude to, and I am alluding to it.
Have you ever heard of a mule? Two different species, crossed horrifically!
How about some real live teddy bears? I'm sure just about every child has dreamed about them. Any chance a modification of a bear's DNA will make them grow no bigger than dogs?
I want my monkeyman!
The Holy See, after accepting the investment of the Canopy Group, is going to sue the Taikong Corporation for 3 million dollars for an undisclosed number of IP violations.
Also the Pope has sent a letter to 1500 taiwanese pet shops owner that they could be in violation of the license by unknowingly selling genetically modified animals.
"I am slashbot, hear me roar!"
I've seen glowing carp in the Susquehana River next to Three Mile Island for years now.
I want a cat that stays the same size as a kitten.
US officials couldn't find any plutonium in Iraq and now they announce glowing fish...
Are the matching lead fish bowl and geigercounter included?
The zebra fish genome is almost sequenced and annotation is coming along everyday. how about we hook up these genes along with others like YFP and luciferase to various promoters. A fish would be green when happy, yellow when hungry, glow in the dark while sleeping and red when thinking of killing you as you tap on the glass and make stupid fish faces at it.
Rice University Department of Biochemistry and Cell Biology- "Engineering the freaks of tomorrow"
One thing to note is that harvesting of aquarium fish is wreaking enormous havoc on the ecosystems of the oceans right now. Primarily on the coral reefs of the planet.
If genetically engineered fish bred in captivity can outcompete some of that trade, it would be a good thing.
I think you vastly overestimate the chances of GM species (1) outperforming wild species evolution wise at the same time as (2) inflicting some real damage to human health. I think that would be a very difficult task to accomplish even for some evil scientist who tried to do it. But that's an other discussion.
That "taking bits of dna from one critter and putting it in another in a lab" is done using a host of natural processes.
In the example I proposed for my final project in a recent class, DNA was removed from the Wintergreen plant that codes for the genes that are responsible for the production of the metabolic pathways that produce methyl salicylate (Oil of Wintergreen). This was done using naturally occuring restriction enzymes to extract the identified DNA.
Then these strands were introduced into the environment of Agrobacterium Tumefaciens, a naturally occuring organism which causes tumors in plants via a process of transmitting t-DNA into the plants genome. The t-DNA was replaced with the DNA removed from the Wintergreen, using a T1 plasmid, and then the Agrobacterium was allowed to go about it's business on Coffee plants.
The result, hopefully, would be coffee that produces its own natural flavoring. The tools were all natural processes: naturally occuring enzymes, bacterium, DNA strands.
The fact that they were brought together with motive and method seems to be the only difference between what I did in the experiment and what happens in nature. So, I'm still convinced you're splitting hairs.
-R
if i am such a thoughtless buffoon, then why did i get a story voted to the front page on this very subject a month ago on kuro5hin? ;-)
7
;-)
http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/5/22/51740/533
i will let kuro5hin speak, in democratic terms with their voting on my thoughts, about what a thoughtless buffoon i am, and ascribe your opinion of me to the fringe of that democratic site
i hope you are happy i have responded to your troll- as in a flaming personal attack, which is what your post is, as opposed to the parent post of mine you are responding too, which is what, +4 right now?
yes, i bear all of the symptoms of trolling indeed
as opposed to you?
you can reason your way to how things really stand i think about who is the troll here
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
I mean, what made him think only the organs would get the effect? Pretty damned haphazard to me...who knows what other unexpected thing might occur sometime.
For your security, this post has been encrypted with ROT-13, twice.
Actually the answer is pretty simple: geeks can marry younger women who aren't turned on by brawn but by the fat porche and happy smile of a rich geek. And face it: if you've worked hard for 20 years and not spent your stash on girls and booze, you _should_ be able to afford a nice car and a happy smile.
Sig for sale or rent. One previous user. Inquire within.
>Jeez, breeding for particular traits is NOT at
>all the same as inserting genes from other
>species.
Ok, you can mate a cow with high milk yield with a bull whose dam had good yield as well to try to increase the calves yield when it matures, and that's not really GM, just selective breeding, but that's a very small part of genetic manipulation. What do you call it when you cross-pollinate 2 types of corn. There, you are not using much technology, butyou are still inserting genes from another species.
With close to a $200 million take (article at hollywood.com), have people around the world missed the point of this film?? Nimom, kidnapped by humans and presumably sold in a store, spends most of the movie desperately trying to flee human confinment. And yet people are flocking in droves to stores to pick up Nimo's cousin, or uncle or settling for a "second best" puffer fish or seahorse if the clown fish are sold out. I don't get it!
Leela: "You can't just sit here in the dark, listening to classical music!"
Your mind is squeezed by a blast of pain!
If you patent an invention that naturally tends to reproduce itself then you shouldn't go whining to the authorities when it does exactly that.
However, a blurb from this article is also relevant:
So, in the judge's opinion, the case isn't a cut-and-dry drive-by pollination mishap.
Since this took place in Canada, I am curious - have any similar cases gone to court in the US yet? I had trouble doing a quick search for just that; all I could find were more references to the Canadian case.
Real fish don't talk and act like human beings.
To prevent further Nemo incidents, don't feed your children food that causes disturbing dreams.
Yes, to me, "Nemo" is still Little Nemo in Slumberland by Winsor McCay and not some Disney/Pixar movie.
I'm not waiting for a genetically engineered clownfish.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Looks like these fish only glow under ultraviolet light. If you want a pet that glows now, you can get a rat (or better, a same sex pair - they get lonely). They have a chemical called porphyrin in their mucous and saliva which glows under a black light, and they get it in their fur while grooming. Also, their urine (which they sometimes also get in their fur) glows.
Rets, dispite their reputation, actually make outstanding pets. Domesticated rats are generally very friendly, clean and surprisingly intelligent (it only takes as little as 15 minutes and a handful of cherrios to teach a rat its name). They don't smell as bad as mice, adn they aren't as neurotic as hamsters or gerbils. If raised around people (who aren't mean to them), they tend to want to join in the way a dog does. Also, selective breeding has resulted in many color and pattern varieties as well "rex" coats, hairless, tailless, dwarf and "dumbo" variaties.
... "Give me a woman who loves beer and I will conquer the w
I agree that the precautionary principle is an important element in the debate about GM, but when it comes to food, it is not the most important factor. The attempt to introduce GM crops is about control of the food chain; it has nothing to do with "feeding the starving" and even the (alleged) improved efficiency and profitability is a secondary benefit, at least in the short term. It's about control. When those pesky farmers can no longer save seeds year to year but have to buy a licence (annually), then the entire food chain, from field via distribution to table is completely controlled by megacorps. That concerns me even more than the unknown effects of releasing such material into the environment
To put it another way : most people here on slashdot are appalled at the prospect of ubiquitous DRM, yet I see plenty of people missing the point when it comes to GM food.
GM crops are the Palladium of the food industry
And you know, food security is actually more important to us than listening to our MP3s and watching our DVDs.
My next sig will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush
Good points. I agree that the gene for glowing is not a big thing. Just because something is genetically modified doesn't make it bad, just like something that is natural (say, naturally occuring cyanide) doesn't make it good.
As far as food goes, I do advocate going slower, as I happen to know many people who are allergic to foods as they are now. I know someone who is violently allergic to wheat and I know of people who are violently allergic to fish (I remember one Fear Factor where the gal's arm started burning from being stuck in a tank of fish).
If the factors that add disease/weed control resistance in GM crops are the same that cause allergies in these humans, the people who suffer from the allergies need to know that. Make sure the studies are done. Make sure the label says, just like the stuff that contains peanuts does already.
-antim
We still have the wolf so there is really no need to worry about the genetic pool of dogs. If the breed get too out of whack we can just start over. should only take 10000 years or so. I'm willing to wait. Nothing in my life will be put on hold if I cant have immediate access to a pug or chiuahua. The only reason these odd-ball creatures are around is because we need something to pity.
Nearly Half of all people are below average
Nearly half of all people are below average
Have you ever heard of a mule? Two different species, crossed horrifically!
Yeah, right.
2 closely related species mating together is the same as inserting coral genes in a fish.
Ooooooook...suuuuuure...
You can't take the sky from me...
Now parents can save money by buying a fish that is a nightlight rather than buying a fish and a nightlight.
I just now cleaned my filter and did a 20% water change for the first time since my son was born in January. You don't have to clean your aquarium as much if you don't feed the fish as much. Less food => Less crap => Less nitrates => Lazy me!
Fascinating. So this is similar to a retrovirus in that it inserts its own genetic code into the host's, right? How were you able to separate the modified bacteria from the unmodified? I would imagine that releasing the unmodified bacteria onto the plants would harm them rather than make them taste like wintergreen.
I did some genetic modification to E. Coli a year ago as a part of a biology class. We inserted a gene from a jellyfish that made the bacteria glow in the presence of a particular sugar and another gene that made it resistant to an antibiotic. We then spread the antibiotic on some agar plates and cultured the bacteria on them. Pretty soon, we had dozens of colonies and they all glowed. Since we used E. Coli, we didn't have to do much other than mix the bacteria and the DNA and then heat shock them.
...Are they ill-tempered?
Why did GEAR crush RDP?
Circletimessquare has brought up some interesting points and I think that merits more then name calling. We learn more from our differences through honest and well tempered discussion.
Quack, quack.
Yes. You probably would. And once there they would seem like Gummy Fish to anything looking for an easy snack.
...Like since goatse.cx showed up.
>we look like we do largely because, like glowing fish, we find ourselves "cute".
Which is exactly how natural selection works. There's a glut of information out there on how traditional elements of beauty (face symmetry, clear skin, physical fitness, etc) translates into a fit and healthy mate most likely to produce healthy children. And so it goes with the next generation.
We don't have some magical sense of aesthetics; what we find cute, attractive, etc is most likely a feedback mechanism directly related to reproduction.
Fascinating how many on slashdot misses the point about GM organisms potential devastation to humankind...
It's not that they may or may not be reproduced and replace similar species, it's that irregardless of their effects on similar species, they can effect dramatically OTHER species that may depend on stability in an environment to survive itself. While the zebrafish may not have an effect on the non-modified zebrafish itself, it can have a dramatic effect on species up and down the foodchain. Normally Darwin theory states that this change takes much time. We are reducing that time to generations, to years, to days. The ultimate effect being the flow of species extinction will be out of human control.
People suck. This is very, very scary.
Big Deal. It is just a short cut to the selective breeding process.
I am working under the assumtion that the 'Zebra fish' is more than likely the common zebra diano that is avalible for under a buck at most pet shops. The fish is one of the most prolific egg scatters known to aquariumist. The stock you can buy at most pet stores has been so badly inbreed, most die within a year. Other forms of this fish have been activly bred away from the wild varities, such as the giant zebra, and the long tailed zebra. Because of the selective breeding for certain features, there is no way they could survive in the wild. I see GM as just a short cut in the selective breeding process. I imagine that those 10% of fish that can breed will be eagerly snatched up by breeders, and within a few year, almost all of the glowing zebra's will be breedable. Does this make the fish any different than those that are selectivly bred for features? IMO, no it doesn't.
This is pretty minor compared to the feature that have been bred into goldfish over the years. Some of those fish, IMO, look terrible, and all suffer from problems related to their breeding.
--C. Alan
Yeah. I'm betting half those "protesting" pet places still sell glass fish that are dyed.
Everyone's seen them. They are those very thing, tetra family fish, that are completely translucent. But they come with streaks of red, blue, green, orange, yellow, pink, neon green, etc. Yes, someone actually holds the fish with a small needle and injects the colored dyes into the upper part of the fish.
So yeah, they'll sell that but they won't sell genetically altered fish. Which is worse? I'd rather glow 'naturally' than have a needle shoved up my ass so I can glow artifically.
..There's a-dooin's a-transpirin'
Hi, nice to meetcha!
(you stole my id, damnit. I should have complained about this some time ago, but back then there weren't journals ^_^)
Black holes are where the Matrix raised SIGFPE
The goatse.cx guy has his ass altered to glow in the dark using this glowing protein!!! Then he can terrorize people even in a dark room!!!
I only look human.
My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
Her is a green rabbit, rats and a few others.
Rabbit
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire
>Yes, and people have been using cars for tens of thousands of years, it was called running.
damn, I can't get this thing out of first gear.
-pyrrho
Or a pet that can go to the bathroom and flush.
Well, the scientists initially tried to breed zebra fish and jelly fish, but both species were found to be terribly resistant to the idea. They even tried turning down the aquarium lights and pumping in some Barry White, but to no avail. Finally the scientists gave up, chalking it up to the fundamental problem that zebra fish and jellyfish just don't run in the same social circles.
Why would you want a laser in their heads? wouldn't that be a little dangerous (possible damage to your eyes, after all theey don't know not to point them at peoples eyes).
Pictures: http://216.239.57.100/search?q=cache:oz6LlRLvxhEJ: www.mongabay.com/external/glowing_fish.htm+Taikong +Corporation&hl=en&start=1&ie=UTF-8
The idea of having glow-in-the-dark fish is not all that far fetched, and actually might not be as difficult as everyone seems to think it was.
In my biotechnologly class we did a very similar procedure involving a strain of e. coli. I'm sure everybody is well familiar with the basic principles of recombinant DNA technology (think cut and paste).
The gene that produces the glowing stuff can be ordered and delivered right to your door; you don't even need to extract it. That's what we did.
Do you also think the point of Toy Story was that toys get sad if they aren't played with?
You know, there aren't really monsters in your closet either.
Jeez, breeding for particular traits is NOT at all the same as inserting genes from other species.
Don't be silly. Sequences of A, T, C , and G do not belong to any one species nor would they be "unnatural" if they appeared in another species. We share greater than 95% of our genes with dogs IIRC. Selective breeding is just shoddy genetic engineering.
Higher Logics: where programming meets science.
There have been genetically modified pets for thousands of years. They're called dogs.
Derek
The trouble with the really long view is that it is depressing.
The live for today attitude ain't so good either.
Genetically engineer me to live to, oh, say 250 years, in good health and let me know the expiration date. That sounds about right.
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
Is this unlikelihood of long term negative effects here on earth. Genetic code is very..intimate. Mistakes can out-live the generation(s) who created them in some pretty profound ways. And industry is no steward of due anything.
Thats my point. As a science I think its great. And a market ready technology I think its rushing to the gate.
Quack, quack.
For the catastrophies that end them. Then their cautious.
Quack, quack.
We use technology to augment nature in ways not previously possible on scales not perviously possible and our technology is increasing rapidly. The industrialist didn't have the atom bomb. Today we have Chemical and Biological warfare.
Things have changed and we are the steward of this technology. Whats the use of our adaptability? To recognize this and move beyond our simple hand-to-mouth reasoning, to focus on the broader picture. Maybe.
Quack, quack.
The Showa Denko disaster? Try googling and see what comes up?
"Not ignorance, but ignorance of ignorance, is the death of knowledge."
-Alfred North Whitehead
Quack, quack.
THe US FDA disagrees, saying that no food can be labelled as "GM-Free", because they consider selective breeding to be genetic modification.
This is one of the arguments. The other argument is that labelling food as GM-free constitutes a claim of a health benefit (by implying that GM food is dangerous or at least less healthy).
I do not necessarily agree with this specific reasoning, but in general terms I do think it is appropriate for the FDA to regulates claims of health benefits on food and drugs.
Finally Crichton's vision from "Jurassic Park" comes true: that bio-chemistry companies and scientists will turn away from the "high-ethics" pharmaceutical and medical industry and turn to the home/entertainment industry instead. Sad, another thing that was "inevitable".
1) It doesn't take genetic engineering to "eradicate" black skin. People can do that with selective breeding or genocide; both of which require less resources and planning. ...Straw man (though you may not realize it)
2) My point: we ARE nature. We are now the primary force of evolution on this planet, as nature gave us the ability to guide our own evolution beyond just picking "healthy" looking mates, as other species do.
3) Genetic engineering will lead to a scary, but wonderful new world, I am sure. No one will pay for genetic endeavors that end up with less than idyllic consequences, as the technology is expensive. Hence we will probably keep messing around till we our children don't have ADHD or allergies, and culminating with lovely cat-girls.
Neko-neko, indeed! ^_^
4) ???
5) Profit!!! (and I checks your website now)
Black holes are where the Matrix raised SIGFPE
What about Mules?
In case of GM'd crops (resistance to pests etc.) the modified organism could well be superior to the wildtype. But even if an advantage is introduced, its still questionable if replacing the wild type with the improved version is a bad thing.
Who cares if GM'd corn or soybeans are better than old ones? Don't you realize that corn and soybeans are entirely domesticated, and can't survive without our cultivation? If you walk through a forrest or meadow, there isn't any corn or soybeans there. They can't survive against wild foliage.
So basically, any GM'd product, animal or plant, would not survive long enough to make any impact on our natural ecosystem. And, yes, i am a farmer.
In Soviet Russia, fish make YOU glow.
And it sounds to me like we agree. Industry isn't as careful as it needs to be and aside from a few raving nuts I think they are the reason otherwise rational people are coming off anti-genetic science. Of course there are the theologists and the crazies, but thats always the case.
Quack, quack.
All viruses insert their 'genetic code' into the host cell's, that's how they replicate. What makes a virus a 'retrovirus' is that it carries its 'genetic material' in RNA form, rather than DNA. Thus, a reverse transcriptase has to convert it into DNA before it can assimilate the host cell. As a result of the hasty and high propensity for error in reverse transcription, retrovirii (like AIDS) are prone to mutations, and thus more difficult to treat.
Anyway, to answer the bulk of your question, you could add a marker gene, such as resistance to penicillin, alongside the transgene, and then grow the bacteria on penicillin-laden agar. Thus, the only bacteria that survived would be the ones who had picked up the DNA packet you'd sent.
-R
As soon as there is the technology for it, people will be paying to ensure their babies are aryan supermen/women. All that "Master Race" shit didn't end with the nazi's. I'm not so sure that I want my children to be white. With all the damage we are doing to the ozone layer we are going to get hit with a lot more UV in future. Maybe I should stop dating white girls :-)
Make them sterile. Biotech companies can make any wierd new animal they want as long as it is gender neutral. The enviromentalists are happy because it cannot reproduce. The biotech companies are happy because people can only buy them, not breed them. The customer is happy because they can get a tailor made pet. Everyone is happy.
Yes, that movie where that nerdy genetic engineer created all those cool pets he had..(I always thought the writers made a big mistake by making that character "thick", when in reality, he would have to be very smart.. (dumb plot line I guess)
I'd mod you up if my points worked here.