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Gaim Speaks Out on MSN Ban
joejg writes "As FootNotes is reporting, the developers at Gaim have responded to the ban Microsoft is placing upon users of third-party clients accessing the MSN protocol. It appears that starting October 15th I will not be able to talk to my MSN friend in South Korea." Gaim's site is more optimistic, saying they may still be able to connect, only without a license to do so.
I don't understand why people are all pissy about this.
Microsoft built a private system for communication, they allowed/tolerated anyone connecting to the network with any compatible client up to this point.
MS, obviously, incurs a cost for maintaining this network/service. They have also been at the forefront of any legal liability for activity on the service. The chat rooms may be virtual, but the computers and bandwidth they use are quite real. They are now seeking to fix these two problems by:
1. Limiting who can connect and how
2. Probably charging a fee for third party clients
If you think this is a bad thing for MS to be doing then let me ask you this:
Do you allow just anyone to walk in to your home unannounced, without permission and do whatever they want? Why should MS (or the cable or telephone company) be any different? Private property is private property.
If the government thinks the property would be better used in the public interest, they can condemn the property and pay a fair and reasonable price for it as compensation.
Article X: The powers not delegated... by the Constitution...are reserved...to the people
The program is given away by Microsoft for free, I think they should be allowed to do whatever they want with it.
As is many times the case, whatever protocol MS decides to come up with will eventually be reverse engineered and incorporated into a later release. We know this from CIFS (Samba). They can't win. They might be a step ahead because it's their code, but its nothing to worry about. The people at gaim will figure it out. I have faith in them.
for people to shift to an open platform like
jabber for their messaging
I guess you just need to get your friends to change to a more use-friendly instant messenger. Why would you bother using a service which is obviously against it's users? Fix things the capitalist way, don't patronize them.
Maybe you need to reconsider your priorities if your allegiance to the open source movement is standing in the way of your being able to communicate with distant friends.
I think one could argue that this is a beginning step to eventually charge for the service. Initially, the Messenger has an open network to encourage alternative clients to increase use in their battle to unseat Instant Messenger. Now that MSN has it's own foothold, it seems they are going to shun what helped make them popular. I wonder, too, if this has anything to so with the fact that so many alternative OS users access the MSN network via the alternative client software.
An instant messenger with file sharing capabilities has significant uses other than copyright infringement.
Fun with Anagarams! LADS HOST, SHALT DOS. HAS DOLTS. AD SLOTHS, HATS SOLD. ASS HO, LTD.
A possible method to block out other 'rogue' clients which was used by AIM for example, is to have the 'challenge' a random number/offset, and the 'response' being the value in the executable at that offset. Hence the only way to connect is to have a copy of the entire executable, any 3rd party clients would need a copy of this and may be breaking some 'DMCA crap' in doing so.
Of course, another method is to just use PKI, but then extracting the key out of the MSN client for use in login may not be seen as a breach of copyright/other rights/DMCA crap etc.
I.O.U One Sig.
Nobody on my MSN list is ever on... they all use AIM.
...I might come to look more favorably on them.
Is this truly the only Earth I can live on?
Move over to ICQ, AIM, Jabber, or something not run by complete facists. They are all free too... why do you WANT to use a MS product?
GAIM ON!
It's difficult sometimes, but this is yet another reason that anyone who can, should move to Jabber posthaste.
The realm of those who "can" (ie: people that are able to leave their current instant messenger for something like Jabber) has gone from very slim to very wide, thanks to Gaim - Gaim is a hell of an IM client, and it provides a great bridge from the current proprietary world of IM, to the way it ought to be - decentralized, and based on open standards, just like email is now. Imagine if email wasn't a universal, open standard, like it is now [insert stupid spam joke here] - imagine what an open IM standard could do for IM's usefulness...
The Free desktop that Just Works
What about:
Lots of people run multiple message systems. Setting up an extra account to bypass those petty limitations really isn't THAT hard. I know it would be nice if more people opted for an open standard like Jabber, but unless South Korea has some kind of weird nationwide ban on using anything besides MSN, I don't see what the big deal is.
bytesmythe
Hypocrisy is the resin that holds the plywood of society together.
-- Scott Meyer
I.O.U One Sig.
This is the same thing AOL IM has been doing for years. Microsoft is just late to the protocol switching party. Just as AOL constantly tried to break Trillian, GAIM and the rest by tweaking the Oscar protocol, Microsoft is finally doing the same. I think it's unfortunate from an interoperability point of view, because who likes running 3 or more different clients to chat? It's pretty darn annoying, but not at all suprising.
-Sy
Shadows on the road behind, shadows on the road ahead...
MS did NOT build a private system for communication. This is NOT a BBS, or a network. Or a service. This is a piece of software that uses a P2P communication protocol. MS incurs no cost to "maintain this network/service". The only costs they incur are in the maintenance and improvement of thier client. Just like MS Office.
The house analogy is flawed. The MSN clients that are being denied access to are NOT hosted at MS, nor is there a central server at MS managing them. This is pure P2P.
Telephone and cable companies, OTOH, are very relevant examples. Not very good ones for the point that you are trying to make. The telephone companies are specifically REQUIRED to allow people who are not thier customers to connect to people that are, as well as lease out thier spare capacity. The cable companies are specifically required to share thier capacity.
"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone."
~Epictetus
I read on bugtraq that one of the anonymous sites had to change the client after federal pressure to provide a back door.
Could this be related? Could M$FT be making some changes for "Patriot Act" related requests that makes 3rd party clients incompatable?
Or am I just getting really paranoid =)
It appears that starting October 15th I will not be able to talk to my MSN friend in South Korea.
...
Yep. You can't IM your North Korean friends because of a communist dictature, and you can't IM your South Korean friends because of a software dictature.
The Innurnet is a global village my butt, and it's sad really
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
is that people think nothing of the power they give to a third party when they agree to use private and centralized systems such as AIM, or MSN. These systems change often, and with unpublished protocol specifications, interoperability is a mere hack that can be broken at the whim of the company.
What we really need is some sort of Jabber based universal chat system for example. (Or, without trying to start a holy war, maybe we can avoid excessive markup and not use XML).
I use Fire on OS X, and I can interface with both Jabber and AIM. Often I'll set my away message on AIM to: "Download Trillion or Fire to talk to me on the superior Jabber network."
Or... I know! How about a nix `talk` revival!
Give it a go.
MS stole an idea from ICQ (bought by AOL later) and tried to muscle in on something that would have functioned perfectly without them.
What did they add that we didn't have from ICQ/ AOL?
Now they think ther are big enough to go it alone using it's Windows monopoly to "Reduce choice"
It's like the phone companies after the break-up of Bell suddenly decided not to allow other carries on their turf. Back to the good old day where you had multiple phones in the house depending on carrier. It did happen (mostly in Europe I believe)
Help fight continental drift.
This was already mentioned in a comment in the previous story about the MSN Messenger Networks.
Yet Socrates himself is particularly missed.
A lovely little thinker but a bugger when he's pissed.
The "capitalist" way: the stupidity of the well-intending masses and the intelligence of the evil elite. The rest are just ignored.
I just needed to get this off my chest. Thank you for your patience.
I'm looking for recommendations on a jabber client (for Win32 and Linux platforms). Also, recommendations on a well-connected public server in the US would be most useful.
My daughter and her friends are hooked on instant-messaging, and they are all keen on MSN messenger -- I figured it'd be harmless enough, 'til I noticed that when she clicks on her "X new email messages" link, it launches InternetExplorer to go visit hotmail -- despite my having set Mozilla up as the default browser. So anyways, that was *my* push to find an alternative...
Don't worry about it yet. Think about it, why would MS charge for access to their network directly after a protocol change? That'd be silly, it means developers have two hurdles (get the protocol to work, then pay or trade for licensing) rather than one. IMHO, more people are likely to end up footing the $ if their code/infrastructure already is integrated with MSN when it's time to pay a bill.
There seems to be enough of a barrier to entry right now that it would be bad business to start kicking people out so soon.
Everyone I know uses AIM exclusively, and it's been that way for the past 3 years; before that it was a combination of AIM and ICQ, but everyone eventually migrated to AIM.
I've never once seen anyone use MSN messenger, or say that they have an MSN messenger account and nothing else. *Very* occasionally I'll run into someone online who has MSN as well as AIM, but even that's rare.
So, this raises the question*, who is out there using MSN?
* It, of course, does NOT "beg the question", and if you think it does, please stop talking (or typing) now. Thanks.
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.
They're moving MSN Messenger exclusively to a new protocol and requiring a license for everyone else . So no, it's not just a matter of being on the newer protocol, it's a matter of dealing with a license written by MS lawyers. *added by me to clarify the quote
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
Before this ends up causing us more trouble than we need, please note that when Slashdot said we are optimistic that we can connect without a license, that is far from our plans.
As stated on the site, it may be possible for people to find a way to connect without a license in the future, but if this is something that will cause us legal problems, we will NOT do it. We will, however, look into other options, such as acquiring a license from Microsoft, depending on the requirements for a license.
If we cannot use it legally, we will likely drop support.
Thank you.
#sarcasam# ....
Talk is old hat . Ytalk is the wake o' the future . With support for <B>multiple<B> people to talk at once it truly is an innovation in IM . Not to metion those friendly sudo root binaries
#end sarcasm#
Please don't spread FUD.
We will be contacting them for a license. Did you actually read what we posted?
"They still encourage clients to connect to their network, so with any luck, we can work something out."
Don't comment on how we're doing things wrongly until you find out what we're doing.
BAM!!! Someone cries DMCA!
I know, most everyone here has to see that as a realistic possibility.
Why don't you figure it out like everyone else, Taco.
Oh, wait...
So, I think you are not naked, and not a chick. I think you are a bot.
Java Anonymous Proxy was backdoored by Court order. Here is a link.
Help fight continental drift.
Will this also affect clients such as trillian?
Thanks for your clarification, but don't bag on me for spreading FUD. I read what you posted several times before making my statement, because there's nothing I hate worse than accusing an innocent person. The statement which you quoted is completely ambiguous; it doesn't directly say "we're going to look into getting a license", and could be construed as "we're going to try to work out a legal loophole", or "we're going to try to work out a way to hack this without being caught".
I felt the need to point out this fact, since the lumpen proletariat of Slashdot think that Microsoft actually exercising their right to control access to servers which they own is somehow akin to being crushed under the heel of a totalitarian despot.
I'm glad to hear that you are in fact trying to achieve a mutually agreeable solution with Microsoft, rather than simply spreading FUD yourself. Bravo. Of course, as I implied in my previous post, if the licensing terms are simply too dear, I agree that you have the right to piss and moan about Microsoft.
mIRC still works great. I just can't communicate at great distances with MS bigots.
If MSN is requiring third party clients to get a license, and the license agreement is reasonable, then gaim will have support for MSN. If there is a way to bypass any license requirement LEGALLY, then gaim will likely have support for MSN too. If other third party clients are willing to reach agreement with MSN that the gaim team aren't, then ya, feel free to switch.
Think everyone uses AIM? Try leaving the States. Outside the US many other IM networks are popular.
My girlfriend speaks to her Argentinean friends over MSN now. Although they once used ICQ, so many have switched that she's not even going to bother installing a client for that protocol on her new computer. Furthermore, none of her friends has an AIM account.
I'm upset because I might not be able to use gaim to talk to them. Let's be realistic, should I make 10 people switch to protocol X (which probably doesn't support half of what MSN supports -- it's a very full-featured service) or just load MSN messenger myself?
I remember a few years ago when AOL and Microsoft were fighting it out over MSN trying to be compatible with AIM. This was in the early days of MSN IM when they didn't have any users (and before they bundled it with XP), and they sorely needed users.
y =c net
y =c net
If I remember properly, AOL tryed compulsively to block Microsoft users from chatting with AIM users, and Microsoft would release an "fix" so to work around AOL's barrier. That is until Microsoft gave up their bid for compatibiliy for "technical reasons".
http://news.com.com/2100-1023-228983.html?legac
http://news.com.com/2100-1040-232886.html?legac
I wonder if Microsoft was guilty of the DMCA for all their "fixes"?
The sole reason for them to do this is to push usage of their proprietary client, duh. Also, to the "would you let people wander around your house for free" analogy, that doesnt quite fit. All they have to do is dress a little differently(use a different client) and no one cares. Off topically, I am vastly dissatisfied with all of the PC chat clients. The proprietary ones are all ad laden or crap, and the multi protocol ones leave a lot to be desired. Both gaim and trillian seem a little klunky to me, and far less configurable than they should be. Oh well.
Sure, it sucks for those developers that work on the separate MSN functionality. But if people want to use gaim that way, and Microsoft does go the litigious route, it's going to suck for somebody anyway. We might as well minimize the number of people it will suck for.
Let me get this straight... They're stopping the development of OutlookExpress, InternetExplorer won't be available for download any more and now they're seriously limiting who can connect to MSN Chat?
:)
Somebody pinch me, I must be dreaming!
*clicks parent to see post at -1*
*sees stupid M$ Flash ad that isn't blocked by Moz because it's not an image*
As if I didn't get what kind of a point the bad karma is trying to make...
I think you are a fag. But then, what do I know? I'm just a naked chick.
Whenever I want to IM the developer of our website I redirect text to his tty.
Cheers
Stor
"Yeah well there's a lot of stuff that should be, but isn't"
I will post an update later clarifying this.
I have said all along that it's Microsoft's servers, and they can do what they wish. However, they are making a point to tell people that they are willing to work with all third party clients to connect. They just want to formalize an agreement between MSN and the clients. This may not be a bad thing at all, depending. It may also be a really bad thing. We just don't know yet, and we have th same information everybody else does.
As usual, the majority of the users on Slashdot decided to react before researching. Guys, if you don't have MSN support down the road, then it's gone. People can switch clients. It's really not a big deal, especially with clients like Gaim, Trillian, and Fire available. Leave the worrying and stuff to us. We will be doing all we can to keep MSN support in, but really, it's just a protocol. One I happen to really like, but it's just a protocol. Don't yell at Microsoft for this. They have every right to make this decision, and it may not even be a bad one.
Modding that one up shows a major failure of the moderation system.
FREE??? Hardly! Microsoft is forcing people to upgrade, (the old version will stop working), and those fools who do will really get screwed by the new EULA - From this article "By clicking on the new agreement, users promise to pay for future upgrades and to acquire future chargeable upgrades whether they're wanted or unwanted." You agree to pay for upgrades, and the upgrade price isn't even stated (or limited!)
Free now, but by clicking you agree to pay whatever they demand later!
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
What a fucking moron. If I could log in right now I'd expose the prick's identity to everyone.
Like maybe looking into securing their own software first?
Here, let's look through a quick timeline:
1994: People laugh at the GoodTimes virus, because everyone knows viruses can't spread through email!
1995: Word macro viruses first created, and now viruses are easier to write than ever before. Meanwhile, Microsoft has plenty of time to figure out how to prevent them, especially since their users hardly ever use macros in the first place, and especially not to, say, destroy the Windows registry or something.
1996: Macro viruses spread to the extent that Microsoft distributes them as well--unwittingly, we hope.
1997: Word '97 released; the dawn of VBA viruses.
1998: With over 1,000 word macro viruses out there, it's worth making virus scanners for them!
1999: Melissa word macro virus spreads over email and infects Word thanks to Microsoft; as they mention, if you don't use Outlook, you're safe. If you do use Outlook, you might get infected without ever looking at the attachment yourself; previewing it may be enough.
2000: The love bug virus spreads over email thanks to Microsoft Outlook, and causes an estimated $8.7 billion in damage.
2001: Code Red spreads, attacking Windows NT and 2K. Sircam emails itself absolutely everywhere, again thanks to Microsoft.
2002: Klez and Nimda spread.
2003: You guessed it, even still yet more viruses spreading faster than ever, thanks to Windows, Outlook, Word, blah, blah, blah.
So what has Microsoft done? Well maybe by securing their MSN network that'll stop e-mail viruses from... ahh, nevermind, they don't give a fuck about their customers. Otherwise, they could have stopped most of this back in 1996 at the latest. And remember, security is top priority over there now. Ha.
I'm just glad that I don't pay to get infected, like so many of their other customers. Instead, I just have to deal with the spam and network traffic that they're responsible for. But at least the files on my Linux desktop are safe!
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
This really reminds me of the whole netscape / IE thing, except this time they are taking on the IM side of things.
Honestly i have to say that MSN messenger is a great tool. The new additions it has added make total sense,
video conferencing, audio conversation, games.... to me these are totally great things to implement and make a whole lot of sense.
Hey wait a second... video, audio, games,, all through MSN? Is there some sort of trend here? Do MS have plans to continue pushing content onto MSN exclusive setup? If they do to me this is really really dangerous, think about the critical mass they will be able to pull in no time at all. MSN will continue to ship with windblows, no doubt about that.
Perhaps I am subscribing to a conspiracy theory here, but to me it makes sense. MS has pulled stuff like this in the past and will continue to pull stuff like this in the future. Unless they keep dominating, shareholders get angry.
To me the only way this will go away would be to make a better, open alternative, at the moment there isn't.
Isn't it legal to reverse engineer for the purpose of interoperability? So if gaim has reverse engineered MSN's protocol, isn't it legal for them to use it?
Bork Bork Bork!!
I actually don't know anyone who uses MSN. And most of my friends aren't very computer-savvy. Everyone I know uses AIM, simply because it got their first. They all signed up for AIM accounts in high school 5-6 years ago before MSN existed (or before it was big anyway), and so they've all kept them now. The people at my college pretty much exclusively use AIM too -- it's assumed you have an AIM account, 'cause otherwise you won't be able to talk to anyone, since that's what pretty much every single person at the college uses.
Really I was under the impression that nobody used MSN/Yahoo/Jabber/whatever. But I suppose this might vary regionally.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Wow, how do you know me so well? Well, the slippers that I am wearing happen to be broken, so you are right that I am wearing a pair of cheap shoe, I guess. But other than that, your post not even is offtopic, it does not even reflect fact. First of all, I am not even White, how can I be "poor white trash"? Nor have I ever been to Virginia. Simply because I disagree with you doesn't mean that you need to attack me like this.
According to MSFT's liscence, they own all the copyrights to the data that traverses their network. Not to mention the likely random spying and keyword flagging that they surely use.
True genius is grasping a situation like a peice of fruit, and peircing it just right so that it drains dry.
that I'll boot XP to be able to chat some one who is using MSN client ?
When a post becomes too insightful, it often becomes funny.
This type of thing is exactly the reason I have de-microsoftized my personal computers. I am sick of the stupid way Microsoft tries to make everything they own into this elite club for Windows/Microsoft users only; the moldy puds that they are.
The friends I use IMs to communicate with mostly use AIM or Yahoo. I think I only have 2 friends that use Microsoft's messenger, so I really don't care that much since it will impact me little. However, I still think Microsoft doing this is like Panasonic creating a phone that only accepts calls from other Panasonic phones. It's completely stupid.
They're not just changing the protocol, they're requiring a license.
Banaaaana!
and perhaps you will get a better perspective on this.
Microsoft cannot require a "license" for third party Messenger software anymore than it can require one for Open Office or Sun Office to interopt with Office files.
OK, they break the protocol for Messenger, look at the success AOL had keeping out the great unwashed from its IM service. Give it about two weeks to a month and everything will be back to normal.
Was anyone really surprised? Sure Microsoft cried foul when it looked like AOL had complete dominance but now that Microsoft has a foot hold they want to change the rules.
"Whereas previously, Microsoft has let third party clients connect, they now require a license for doing so."
Do you really think that they care about the small revenue that they might bring in from such licenses? Of course not! But they know that such license will lock out any products made that support operating systems that compete with Windows. In particular it locks out open source products that support Linux; their greatest fear. It's just a small measure to help protect their OS monopoly. A lot of small measures could add up to big frustrations to Linux users.
They're just pulling out all the stops knowing full well that the current legal system under our current administration is too spineless to bitch slap them like they deserve.
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
Your license with your ISP is that you give them $xx.xx per month and agree not to do certain things, in return they give you bandwidth. Don't agree with them? Don't get their bandwidth. Anyways, this MS license might require the program developer's firstborn child or it might be a token $1 payment, we don't know. Oh, and you don't pay for MSNM... unless you got gypped.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
net send 66.190.249.100 "worm infected windows looser you should be running linux"
Been having a blast with this one..
Got Code?
-1 point, multiple question marks.
-2 points, combining bold and italics.
-2 points, high strung
Total: -5 points, LUG member living in Mom's basement.
The name that you chose to post under says all. This is the end of this discussion.
Hey, ICQ was the biggest name in IM back in the day. Surpassing AIM, I believe. Now it's numbers are falling pretty quickly.
And in my (and others') opinion, ICQ was technically superior in many ways to AIM for a long time. Even though AOL bought ICQ, AIM is still lagging behind the old ICQ.
True, Friends don't let Friends run MSN Messenger..
Got Code?
Is banning someone on their OS Choice a religious issue? Sure seems to be around here.
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
So people that need Windows applications wont be forced in to a more vendor lock-in. After a while maybe we can move these people to Linux but we NEED a Windows clone that works NOW.
Free Unix? Free Windows. http://www.reactos.com
How 'bout the Old Way:
;-)
# talk your@yourhost.yourdomain
Works great. Less filling.
(File sharing is left as an excercise for the reader.)
The inquirer article is off the boat. At no point in the text does it say that you agree to hand over your cash in the future for whatever price they want. What it does say is that, in the future to *continue* to *use* the software you may have to pay.
yeah, after reading a little it got me thinking about how i was on icq and irc and all that junk before aim came out... wasn't icq first? i always thought aim hit it off cause you could talk to your friends on aol for free so everyone started using it. not to mention it was much easier for the "non-computer savvy" person to use. and thinking about it, where i'm from (nyc) it is pretty much assumed here you have an aim name too. aol bought icq anyway so i guess it's not about who was here first anymore but about who's got da bills. maybe m$n will pull ahead after all?!?
fact: microsoft > linux
This is a perfect example of Microsoft exceeding its authority. MS has a legal obligation to ensure that its software is compatible with third party software. If they default on that obligation, then it would be considered "reasonable force" for third parties to undertake reverse engineering of MS software. Although, it would be nice to see someone try to claim in court what is legally theirs {i.e. some pseudocode examples, diagrams &c. that would enable a competent programmer to code a compatible client to talk to their server}.
I mean, what earthly point is there in having standards - especially when done through a system as open as the RFC system - if people don't follow them? Someone needs to send a clear and unambiguous message to Microsoft that people are not happy with their business methods.
Maybe one day it will actually be against the law to to write closed-source software. For me, that day can't come soon enough.
Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
You guessed it!
Couldn't you just keep a copy of the original executable? I don't think you have to agree to the terms just by having the files unless you use them. It would require downloading alot of clients but it should work.
>It appears that starting October 15th I will not be
>able to talk to my MSN friend in South Korea
it also appears that your friend doesn't bother to install another client.
class he-man extends man!
wow.. it's amazing that the developers of that Java software didn't even reveal that they were installing a backdoor. Is that even open-source? If not, one good reason to stay away. I wonder how other anonymour-providing services like FreeNet and the GNU software are going be handled. Granted, it is slightly different but still...
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places
I really haven't looked into the architecture of the MSN IM network or its protocol, as I have only used an "IM" once or twice.
;)
However, it is still very possible, as I am sure you all know, to work around this "ban".
First, does MSN IM run under WINE?
If not, one option, I suppose, would be to create a sort of "proxy" that can sit on the Windows machine, and, for communications with any specified users, intercept outgoing communication, and after performing a conversion based upon some mapping between the two protocols, send it to a Jabber or AIM network. Do the reverse for incoming Jabber or AIM communication. I don't know, but I would imagine that some reasonable mapping between the protocols can be established for at least basic communications.
Obviously it could become fairly complicated, but then I suppose so could getting all of your contacts to change their IM client. I've come acorss people with quite a number of them.
Why we want faster and more intrusive ways of being remotely pestered in one's own home, I suppose I just don't always know
.sig Realistic fines for copyright in
al lot of comments spreading unfounded rumours that MS is at their old game again are modded up extremely insightful etc, while we just don't know the why and what of the whole situation.
we accuse MS of spreading FUD, while we are doing the same thing *all* the time...
Has anyone put together an IM protocol that is truly P2P and doesn't require a server? Finding your contacts would be done by linking with other IM nodes. From what I read even Jabber requires a server.
Actually I'm not saying goodbye to MSN becouse really I never said hello.
I said goodbye to ICQ with all the ICQ spam.
I said goodbye to IRC with the network splits etc
POPnet said goodbye to me and shut down...
I've no problems leaving any given IM.
(*Twitch* Want my ytalk *Twitch*)
Hay it's just the way of things.
Goodbye MSN.... Sucks to be you.
PS. I use Gaim from Windows at work.
I'm not home enough to use my computer from home. I log into it from work.
I don't actually exist.
speak about costs, what will they charge you for using MSN? Read this. If this works, hotmail will follow. Many people will get an alternative, but many will just pay.
Profit! for MS, not for their customers.
Means I can't talk to my North Korean friend either. Bugger.
I'm interested in talking about getting a license for my own project, but I seem to have completely missed out on where the email address or website is that explains who I talk to at Microsoft.
Anyone got this info?
Alright, I don't fully support MS... but I do understand that it is their property, and they can do what with they want with it...
It's just like a bank machine... you are signed with a bank, you use your card on their machines, you're not charged anything. However, lets say you use your RBC card on lets say a TDCanada Trust machine, you have to pay an INTERAC fee of $1.25. Why? Because you're using another bank's service to access your account on another machine. Same deal.
I can't find any information on how to contact them to get such a license. Do you have any links/addresses regarding this ?
Thanks.
blah
All this wasted energy debating how bad it is that Microsoft decided to put barbed wire at the top of the walls in their "walled garden" IM network.
The Internet was built using open standards - and the "true, old school" slashdot crowd just use them.
JUST USE JABBER, and stop wasting bandwidth and bits whinging about MS.
here: http://microsoft.order-5.com/Messenger/
Well, Microsoft didn't become this big by providing free services...
This doesn't surprise me at all. They have always been using a tactic which eventually ends up trapping their customer to pay them money.
Oh wow, was that overrated! Can you please come up with something that's recent to this century?
I could not agree with you more. If I were a good coder I would help, my level is not that good yet. I have just started into assembly and have only limited C skills. I am taking the long way around and going against the book where it says learn C first, "assembly is only for core coders that can read and write OS functional C"! Perhaps taking an old style procedure approach is more my cup of tea anyway I have always had trouble with C forks and calls to extentions!
Maybe fairly soon I will be able to help with some simple routines that others can extend and use. Kind of what do you want to do approach instead of what lib do you need to link to so that it might work. A slow but sure way to do simple things one at a time. Maybe I might make a good sales and install person and be very good at marketing reactos if it flies. I really like the idea, problem is how long before MS pulls a SCO on you guys! Those turkeys would most likely include a government backed cease and desist order if they think you are cloning their patented business UI features and OS interface routines. It might take years to fight them, and money that no one has. They can sue people and get away with it because they do not care if someone sues them for IP theft, make enough noise and they just payoff.
OH THE SHAME I fell off the wagon and use sigs again!
The basic problem with you guys is that you want what MS is giving, but you don't want MS. And you want it for free !
Gee, I only didn't reply to the right thread, I used century instead of decade. My apologies to all.
HOW many beers are missing?!
Righto... I dont' run MSN software, in the sence of the MSN explorer package. I have NO wish to run it, it's a bloated bug ridden piece of filth.
MSN messanger on the other hand, well it's got its issues but not nearly so bad as the install package. I'm happy to use it in the event that MSN bans all other clients... that that I prefer it over GAIM or trillian by anymeans, it's just there.
Will MSN require end users to actually upgrade, or event to install that stupid MSN explorer? If so i'd be looking for a 3rd party solution and or switching back ICQ or whatever.
There is no sanctuary. There is no sanctuary. SHUT UP! There is no shut up. There is no shut up.
Holy shit, just realized I cross posted postings, and confused them to boot...
Wierd, when I speak my mind I get modded up to hell cause it's common sense to... well, apply common sense to things. I wish this would apply more often. Sometimes the occasional brain fart does come through though...
no one uses msn messenger anyways. why use a service when the people you are able to talk to are limited, plus the I don't find any of the features on MSN messenger much more useful than ICQ, Yahoo or the king of the hill AIM.
but they can close their network.
at least they're offering a license.
Maybe AOL/ICQ can make good of this, and reel in some more users by opening their protocols?
What? Me? Worry?
1) If using MS' service without using the official client is 'freeloading', I still think that it's in MS' interest that we freeload off them, and not one of their competitors. I use GAIM pretty much exclusively, but most if not all of the people on my buddy list use Messenger under Windows. I add a small amount of value to their experience of the service :-), and this makes them marginally more likely to use it (and hence see the ads etc.) whenever they want to talk to me.
2) I suppose an alternative for those who just want to connect would be to try to run Messenger under Wine. I gave it a cursory try, it didn't work straight away and I moved on to something more pressing, but has anyone else tried this with more success?
That's exactly what they're doing, and that's perfect! They're going to piss enough people off to "reduce" themselves right out of the market. Farewell, MSN Messenger... and good riddance! One less protocol for the third-party clients to bother with.
(Not that I really care... I don't know a single person who uses it anyhow.)
Weren't MSN whining about AOL banning them when they needed the subscribers? But now they have millions of subscribers, it's apparantly alright to ban others.
You fucking cocksucker. Eat my ass you piece of shit.
Afaik kopete will support MSNP9 protocol ( its in the works ) . So Kopete users will be able to use Msn after the ban too.
Never learn by your mistakes, if you do you may never dare to try again
Just patches.
Becauase, let's face it storing passwords in the clear is a big ole bug.
Microsoft is the only "commercial" IM provider that has been in favour of a standard protocol for IM. They published this draft in 1999, a complete spec of the MSN Messenger 1.0 Protocol.
MSN owns the network you have to connect to in order to talk to MSN users.
Do they? Yes, the servers on which MSN Messenger operates are probably the property of Microsoft (or, at least under their control). In fact, it's likely that the network to which those computers are connected also belongs to Microsoft.
However, Microsoft also made a decision to connect its network to the public Internet. In doing so, they accepted certain "terms & conditions," as it were. When they open a TCP port and start accepting connections, they agree to the implications of following the protocol.
TCP, last I checked, has no way to know -- because it isn't designed to know -- anything about the specific application that's using it to communicate.
So, Microsoft can't claim that otherwise conforming connections are breaking some law (or even trespassing in the civil sense) solely on the basis that those connections originate from software of which they don't approve.
Microsoft operates a network service using well-established protocols that permit unsolicited connections from arbitrary software. In doing so, on the public Internet, Microsoft implicitly agrees to a certain measure of public use of its private machinery (just as it does when it puts up a web server or an FTP server). As a result, it must resort to technological measures to control access, or -- bluntly -- fuck off.
Microsoft clearly has options, if it wants to pursue a policy of prohibiting connections from particular individuals. It could use some other datagram protocol, that verifies the nature of the application communicating over it... or pull an AOL by securing and verifying application credentials over TCP or whatnot... or prohibit the use of MSNM except from registered IPs... or not connect to the public Internet at all.
It's a tradeoff, you see, when you connect to the public Internet. You agree to allow a certain level of public access to your otherwise private property. It's a bit like owning a storefront--you implicitly agree that people can walk inside, even if you withhold the right to kick them out later.
anti-competitive. I would have thought this would have been illegal.
-- Karma Karma Karma Karma, Karma Chameleon - Boy George
afaik, the MSN protocol is open (in some rfc or such) and it's sick that MS tries to close down those users who are not capable or willing to run windows based software from MS. we all know the security track record isn't too good for
S and there are lots of other reasons to stay away from their products. having said that, I am afraid that next think is to pay for the 'service".
a good moment to rethink MSN, there are other good ways to talk to each other..
a replacement that is compatiable with all the mains ones ie ICQ, MSN, AIM, Yahoo etc. That would be pretty sweat. Instead of having to use 3 to chat to all my various mates I could use 1
-- Karma Karma Karma Karma, Karma Chameleon - Boy George
ICQ's interface struck me as kind of an intermediary between IM and email -- you send short messages back and forth. I personally don't find that very useful -- generally I either want to send a message (for which I use email), or I want to have a conversation (for which I use IM). Conversations over ICQ were particularly tedious in comparison to other IM services.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
It got there first of the "easy to use for non-techies" clients (which I'd consider to be AIM, MSN, and Yahoo Chat). ICQ did get there first, but it never really was widely used by non-computer-people, at least that I know of.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Am I the only person here who's friends are exclusively on MSN? I am from Great Britain, and I have 33 friends who use Windows, and MSN (it only requires a Hotmail account so it is pretty staightfoward to use). I doubt that they will consider using anything else, cause most of their other friends are also on MSN. Part of the reason I didn't switch to Linux till recently is beacuse I thought that MSN was a Microsoft only thing, now I am happily chatting away on GAIM. But now it seems I am faced with two choices, give up instant messaging my friends (unless I can miraclously pesuade them all to use an alternative client such as Yahoo or AOL), or reluctantly go back to using Windoze...
There's the barren wasteland known as ICQ, there's aim, there's the ever so buggy yahoo. And a few more out there... I use trillian which works on multiple networks and doesn't support ads. So I don't really care which system I talk over, and I'm sure many people here use multiple systems. It's not like people will be so desperate to stay with MSN that they won't be willing to leave it. What would be really nice though is if Trillian and Gaim go together and came up with a compatible encrypted messaging standard. Then I could just get all my friends to move over to one of them.
Deltron 3030 - Virus (music video)
"It appears that starting October 15th I will not be able to talk to my MSN friend in South Korea."
MSN seems to have far too much control over your friend. I would have thought that your friend could have used AIM, Yahoo Messenger, IRC, email, amateur radio or any number of other things to communicate with you.
Let this serve as a warning to us then. If MSN has that much control of people in Korea then you know that they would like to have the same kind of control of us here.
. Quit playing Monopoly with Bill. Switch to one of many non-Microsoft products today.
I can totally relate to this situation. I know many people with Windows and Office, but without licenses to have them.
http://www.talknerdy.org
*yawn*
microsoft cries foul every time their monopoly is threatened, and it takes the Open Source community to do anything about it.
I haven't given M$ any money since i bought Win2kPro 2 years ago, i run 2kPro SP4, and OpenOffice.
The only reason I use windows is for gaming compatibility. I haven't used MSN messenger in years (they only reason was for the abhorable GameVoice), now i use TeamSpeak (light years beyond ANY M$ voice tech.)
No one I use uses Messenger, I've been a stalwart AIM user since 1996, using the AIM client, and now, Trillian (Win) and GAIM (on my linux box), tho i've been so impressed with GAIM i think i'll get the win32 version and dump trillian. The MSN messenger protocol IMO sucks anyways, as much as I hate AOL, at least AIM allows 3rd party clients (no pesky ads).
AIM is ubiquitous, much like AOL was/is, though it's used by people like me who don't touch AOL with a 39 1/2 foot pole. MSN on the other hand, isn't ubiquitous, so M$ wants it that way... long live Open Source i say, just another nail in the coffin for M$.
Logistical Chaos Officer http://www.slagg.org - LAN Gaming in Sarasota FL,USA
That this is like ATT (or MCI or BTI or Sprint or ...) saying that they won't allow calls to their customers unless the caller is also a customer. Maybe it's about time to have these services classified in the same manner as the telephone systems are so they can be forced to interoperate. But I'll that will open the wallets of a bunch of lobbyists to stop it :)
***Blackholes are where the gods divided by zero.***
The problem with MSN, AIM, Y!IM and so forth is that they are centralised. One entity both controls and pays for the hub of the service without which the service will not function. Obviously they must somehow recoup costs, which they usually do via advertising in the official client.
What we need is a decentralised IM system. We techically already have one in the form of Jabber, but noone uses it for reasons I can't be sure of. I suspect the major problem is the high barrier of entry: you must either use the jabber.com/jabber.org servers (centralisation, again) or install your own Jabber server, which is where things get tricky.
In order to run your own Jabber server, you must have a box somewhere preferably with an always-on connection and static IP. This box must be Internet-accessible, at least on the ports Jabber uses.
Had Jabber been invented around the same time as email and news, ISPs would no doubt run Jabber servers on behalf of their customers as they do with USENET news servers and SMTP servers. Unfortunately, it's now far too late in the game for this to happen. Convincing one ISP to do this would be nearly impossible, so convincing the majority to do it will never happen.
As with most new things on the Internet today, it seems like peer-to-peer is the only answer. The clients must also be the servers, and it should be no harder than simply running the program. Designing an efficient peer-to-peer system for instant messaging which works behind NAT gateways sounds tricky, but not impossible. Is anyone working on this already?
http://trillian.cc/forums/showthread.php?s=&thread id=43136
-Solo
While it is their network and their resources, I couldn't help but send them a letter indicating my disgust over their decision. I also included a reminder of the MNS/AIM tussel to show that some people havn't forgotten and noticed how their stance has changed in regards to interoperability.
:)
I know it won't do much, but who knows? Maybe if enough people notice and respond there may be a change of heart. In any case I'm not giving up my asbestos suit just yet for when I die.
~~ Behold the flying cow with a rail gun! ~~
I see MSN losing a lot of users over this one. I mean, people who use MSN now are going to upgrade and keep using it. But the only people I know who use MSN are people from India. Go to my college and you'll see walking around any lab. From India? using MSN. From USA? AIM. From elsewhere? ICQ.
.NET Passport/Hotmail/Messenger boat. My gAIM jetski is very nice.
Second of all, all of those people who presently use Trillian to connect to AIM/MSN/ICQ might be switching to the superior, IMO, gaim.
I don't know where MS is getting new users from. Probably nowhere. But this maneuver is definitely going to cost them a few. I'm glad I've totally avoided the
The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
Umm, you forgot 1988: Morris Worm spreads by using sendmail.
We weren't all laughing in 1994. Some of us were thinking Microsoft didn't learn from history.
http://amsn.sf.net is the homesite of this nifty msn client that looks and behaves similar to the msn client itself. It's on version 0.80 right now and has already upgraded to msn6.0 emoticons etc. I think they are working on the connection protocol too. Oh yes, btw, though msn 5.0 users on my LAN get disconnected often, I hardly ever do. I guess this is due to protocol incompatibility for the older msn clients..
Only because all my friends are on AIM. I used ICQ in the past, but when I was in high school I would ask all the girls what messager they used and they would say AOL. So I installed it just to talk to a girl or two I knew from high school. Here I am 4 years later using GAIM under Linux to not only talk to my girlfriend but also to talk to my friends. Hell I don't care what I use long has I get to talk to my friends online and program a little at the same time.
From Zero to Hero... Starbuck Zero
In Sweden I'd say ICQ (tech, normal and old time casual users) and MSN (new comp. users) have pretty much all users. The only people I know who have AIM or Yahoo support are the ones using Trillian etc, but very few have accounts for AIM or Yahoo, except in order to keep in touch with stubborn American friends who won't move to a more popular platform. I am not aware of anyone who uses AIM, that appears to be a very American thing to do. My impression is that it was what people used before MSN started to be pre-installed in the OSes. I have used ICQ since its "first wave" around 96 and 97, when my friends all started using it. They have since kept using ICQ, until it became bloated, after which Trillian and Jabber clients took over. Most Swedish (and european) web communities have places to enter the icq #, and sometimes the msn address. Yahoo and AIM are known only vaguely by the webmasters, and never supported.
How do you figure it has to do with OS preference? I use Trillian on Windows, and I won't be able to connect, either.
why not just dump all these IM clients and go back to some old school BBS or IRC ?
iF yOu WAnT to C YOUr iP agaIn gAThEr tWO MilLIon dOLLArS IN Non - cONsEcuTivE TweNtY's AnD AWaiT FuRThER iNstrUctIoN
You shouldn't use M$N. M$N is Evil. Besides: it sux0rz. If your friends use M$N, make them change. If they won't change, get new friends.
It's the right thing to do.
In Soviet Russia, MSN Bans unofficial you!
For the record, Jabber-the-protocol can handle international characters perfectly, as long as the chars are in Unicode.
The clients are at fault if they can't handle the Unicode, and they need to be poked and prodded until they do.
Also, Jabber contact lists are stored on the server, too.
Yikes! I know you're from the UK, so 'fag' there probably, if I'm informed, means cigarette. But here in the states, it just doesn't have that meaning. I'd *hate* to see someone offering me their homosexual boyfriend, and I *certainly* don't have one of my own. :shudder: (Uh... Go Bears! ;-)
Isn't October 15th the same day that SCO jacks up the commercial SCO-IP for Linux liscense price from $699 to $1399? If it's not the same day, I know it's pretty damn close.
I continue to question why people are so upset about this. Microsoft runs the service. Why shouldn't they restrict access to their paying customers (i.e. windows users). They're giving it away for free.. it's not a Linux user's right to use the thing.
That's like saying that an ISP is blocking you from using their bandwidth because you aren't a licensed user.
When I connect to a web server owned by another ISP or send email to a customer of another ISP, the ISP lets me connect and use their bandwidth without getting any sort of license at all. Similarly if a customer of the ISP wants to view my webpage or send me email.
One of the consequences of this is that there are lots and lots of ISPs in the world which people can freely choose between with few ill effects. Microsoft and AOL don't like this, because they have "the dream" where they are the only company in control of a network and so anyone who wants to use the service of that network has to become a revenue source for them. It's much too late for them to do that with email or the World Wide Web, but they still both feel they've got a chance with Instant Messaging.
It much easier. According to DMCA (music of Village People in the background), if you have some security system build in to protect your copyrighted material, it is illegal for someone to circumvent it. Case in point.
/ 13 11232&mode=thread&tid=99
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/01/16
That is why the are building in "security features" in an attempt to set up the garage door opener defense.
It much easier. According to DMCA (music of Village People in the background), if you have some security system build in to protect your copyrighted material, it is illegal for someone to circumvent it. Case in point.
/ 13 11232&mode=thread&tid=99
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/01/16
That is why the are building in "security features" in an attempt to set up the garage door opener defense. It seems quite clear from the wording of the new fixes.
Windows Messenger and MSN Messenger are seperate things. Windows Messenger is bundled, and it's a free download anyway.
"Sufferin' succotash."
Logic and reasoning at Slashdot? Hang him by his toes, boys.
"Sufferin' succotash."
Quote: Hi Folks,
As many you have read recently, MSN has decided to no longer support older versions of their clients. Within their announcement, they mention that some third party applications may be affected. Trillian Pro 2.0, which is currently in beta, supports the latest and greatest MSN protocols. The free version of Trillian will be updated in time to reflect the new protocol as well. If we hear anything from Microsoft directly, or find out any more information, we will be sure to let you know first.
Thank you all for your support!
~The Cerulean Studios Team
Looks like Microsoft's plan isn't quite going to hold up. Though I'm moderately worried that Trillian may lose connectivity for Real-World reasons (read: they're gonna get sued).
I stole this sig.
I am surprised nobody has mentioned my biggest beef with AIM - the association with AOL. A few years ago I was to lead up a team doing an eCommerce gig with Nestle and I handed out my ICQ# to all the developers ... one of them emailed me back that she wanted to use AIM instead.
I pretty firmly explained that if I found out she was an AOL user or even had an AOL email address she was off the team. Pretty much ended that discussion. Yea I was a dumbass elitist back then, but I am a little smarter now. I will still kick a developer off my team if he publicly admits to being a current AOL user, however.
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
Ever hear of trillian? That is a *MSwindows* based program.. And it potentially will be effected..
So its not just 'anti MS' people, it effects people that prefer to have ONE program to do their IM.. not 5...
Plus the MSN interface sucks..
But I agree it is their network, however they need to be careful about exercising that monopoly power and excluding people on a whim.. many of whom are still customers of their PLATFORM....
( oh, and GAIM runs on MSwindows too.. just for the record.. )
---- Booth was a patriot ----
AOL is around here. Physical proximity breeds scores of users, who then use it to keep touch with relatives, friends, and so it goes.
The only reason why I switched to AIM from ICQ was because more and more people starting using it here. It was a real grassroots network effect.
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
I think we need to move to a distributed IM architecture on free software. This way, everyone owns (their) piece of the pie, and no one company can control who accesses it.
The interesting thing about the crackdown on distributed systems (napster for example), is its exposure of how these large companies are evolving to gain/maintain control over what we have access to, and how we access it. The more their grasp slips, the more harsh thier attempts to force people to stay.
Microsoft, for one, has made no bones about wanting to manufacture the entertainment and information equipment, control access to entertainment, information and games, and become ubiquitous in every household.
They will succeed if they can force people to buy their systems by breaking interoperability with the free systems out there. This is just a variation on what they have been doing with their software for years.
Lodragan Draoidh
The more you explain it, the more I don't understand it. - Mark Twain
In many countries reverse engineering is expressly allowed. In many more the law neither allows nor forbids it.
Gaim has a plugin archtecture, making it possible for a Russian, Brazilian or Australian group to release a MSN connection plugin without breaking any law. The only doubt would be if American users would be able to use it legally.
Here's the thing, you have a certain user base out there which is using MSN without using the MSN client. Most of the MSN users are using the MSN client however. By forcing people to use the MSN client, they guarantee that at least some portion of the users of that system will just stop using it.
If I'm a user of the MSN client, and a few friends of mine use third party products, there's a greater likelyhood I'll stop using MSN altogether. The value in any IM network is the availability of my friends. I don't use AIM because it's technically superior, I use it because I have more friends on AIM. In reality though I use GAIM, which means I may soon not be using MSN. Fine by me, I'll just use yahoo and aim.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
I was thinking about this the other day, and I think the easiest way to get people to use Jabber would be to provide a gateway service to Jabber that allows people to use their favorite IM client that they already know. I know that AIM and ICQ have an option to specify the server to use, but I doubt MSN does. Anyway, if users could specify this gateway service for their server and have the real AIM client be a Jabber client too, then users would probably be more willing to give it a shot. We already have TOC, Oscar is reverse-engineered already, and obviously the Jabber protocol is open, so I think all the pieces are there to make it happen.
Hmm.. It seems to me that MS will announce MSN messenger 6.0 for MacOS X or just wait until users will complain that MacOS X lacks decent MSN messenger client so you should not buy Mac! :)
You're new here, aren't you?
It's nothing but crumpled porno and Ayn Rand.
I don't blame Microsoft, I can totally see why they would want to do this, from a Corporate point of view. MSN Messenger 6 also has a lot of really proprietary features that would be hard to implement on third party clients (not impossible, of course).
Change to AIM if you need to. Personally, I think it's a much better chat client anyway.
That's more like "public restricted" than "public-private." Anyone is allowed in, but there are rules (just like pretty much anywhere).
So why aren't we, who understand the importance of decentralized systems and open protocols, using Jabber?
Litigious bastards
"Maybe one day it will actually be against the law to to write closed-source software"
Oh yeah, FORCING people to releash their source. That is freedom alright!
Fucking Open source biggots.
The very thing that AOL was getting bitched at about? By M$ as I recall? or is my memory failing me.... JAV
What has griped me about MS? Well, lots of things they do. I use Linux. I know, you think that makes me a MS basher. You're partly correct in that assumption. However, unless you have had a Hotmail account since it's inception in 1994, you can not fully appreciate my pissed mood toward MS.
... not keeping Proprietary locks on what you are providing. You are forgetting the numero uno rule in customer service - the customer ALWAYS comes first!!
All was working well with Hotmail until MS bought it and, sometime more recently in it's supposed wisdom decided to BORG everyone (like the "Resistance is Futile" bill on slashdot) into requiring a 'passport'. Should we accept such "big brother" tacticts? Of course you know the answer.
Up to the time I started getting so much true garbage spam that I just emptied the whole lot daily (450 messages a week), I relied on this service to keep in touch with my friends. After the passport came into view, I tried to login to hotmail and got rejected with the nasty box about requiring a Passport. I tried in vain to setup this passport, but the system did not like my password and kept kicking my out. I contacted MS 5 times to no avail.
Now for my MSN IM account, that still functions to this day with the same password I had been using for hotmail. Go figure on that one. With this news I will finally dump MSN for good. I rely on GAIM to do my messaging now... and Jabber. GAIM supports almost all IM services out there and Anyone can get a Yahoo account or an AOL IM account and keep right on truckn'.
Don't give up the fight. Unless the idiots truly realize their position in the World Community, their services and software will fall into disuse. MS has adopted such an idiotic stance on things. Bill Gates, I hope someone points this out directly to your face. Get with program... it's about helping people communicate with people
koolaid
Starcraft? one out of two kids are playing this game daily. And there are even live contests on the game TV channel... :)
If I were to complete the analogy, I'd have to go back to pre-ISPs like Prodigy, which my family dropped because they were going to start charging us 25 cents per email/forum post. Sounds reasonable, doesn't it? After all, emails from one Prodigy user to another used entirely Prodigy bandwidth, and so it's only fair for Prodigy to charge for them. So why aren't we paying a quarter an email today?
The reason they thought they could do that was because in the beginning Prodigy's email (like Compuserves, AOLs, and all the other online services') was limited to their own private system and ran exclusively on their own private servers, just like instant messaging does now. It was only upon contact with the internet that they joined together to be part of a distributed email system where they each only bore the costs of one half of any inter-system email exchange, and where anyone who didn't like their prices could switch to another provider without losing the ability to email anyone.
So why isn't anyone but Jabber using a system like that today? Is it because Microsoft and AOL have some sort of engineering amnesia, and can't figure out how to develop a communications protocol that doesn't involve One Giant Server Room to coordinate everything? Of course not. It's because, like I said, Microsoft and AOL want to have everyone's communication dependent on their One Giant Server Room, because then they have a hook that they can use to force ads on you, make you pay for premium services, and generally squeeze from you whatever the market will bear.
The problem is that in a competitive market where you had as many IM servers to choose from as email servers, the cost of an ISP providing instant messaging services would be infintesimal (significantly less than providing NNTP services, for example), the price that users pay would be a fraction of their ISP subscription, and many of those ISP subscriptions would go to other companies. That's not a revenue source for Microsoft or AOL, so that's not how Microsoft and AOL are designing their IM systems.
and not the OS. I am not even a mac fan and that statement is plain silly....
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
Yahoo! Messenger (not mentioned above and also with a basic but functional unix version) supports unicode and server-side contact list, though I haven't tried in Korean, it works in Spanish, Polish and Russian without problems. And for John Doe it's at least as easy to use, including voice (the best one I've seen so far) and webcam support, than MSN is. Besides, MSN 6 just copied a lot of features that were in Yahoo! Messenger before, like active backgrounds and animated smileys. Another one for innovation...
See, I know many people who were those tech-illiterate teenagers not too many years ago. And they all used AIM, 'cause it's what everybody did, and was less geeky than ICQ. So they all still use AIM. I guess people who are now teenagers mostly pick MSN then?
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
This is based on discussions with people at other universities as well. Some of them report some minor MSN usage, but none of the rest.
And certainly I've never heard of anywhere where Jabber is the norm. Most people don't even know Jabber exists. And I wouldn't call its userbase "huge," at least not compared to MSN, AIM, or Yahoo. It's basically only used by open-source types.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
The Contact Form
This story which says "It is our expectation that
those who use our service with unlicensed or unauthorized third-
party clients will likely not be able to log on after October 15,"
Microsoft spokesperson Sean Sundwall told BetaNews.
"We would encourage those third parties to contact us to work out
agreements by which they can continue to have their customers access our network."
A Techweb stating: Those who don't update won't be able to access
the service, nor will unauthorized or unlicensed third-party clients be allowed to connect
to MSN's IM network, the company said.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
Hey, that's the one I have!
Yeah, it works great, but they use a weird power cable--it's 9V *AC* current. Mine broke, and I could have wandered all around creation (or looked online) to get a new one, but I needed it right away, so it was easier just to buy a new router.
After all, I figured, if I had plugged in that 9V DC adapter instead, I probably would have had to buy a new one anyhow...
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
I wish someone would post a good article about the various instant messaging networks, and their pros and cons. I've been using MSN, but only because I recently switched from Windows and it's all I know. :)
So, what are the respective advantages and disadvantages of Jabber, AOL, ICQ, and all the others? Which offer encryption and authentication? Which have the best uptime and response time? Which have the best sets of graphical emoticons? And most importantly, how well supported are they by Gaim?
PCWorld.com Outlook Express: Death is Exaggerated The idea may have been floated as a trial balloon, but Microsoft backed off quickly under intense pressure from OE's user base.
Ever heard of a "common carrier?"
The first telephone companies in the US became labeled as "common carriers" and were forces to wire every household regardless of location. Anyone who wants a phone can have it, at least in the lower 48 states.
Both MS and AOL have designed their servers to require centralized servers in the hopes of controlling the market, not because it was the best way to do it - distributed http://www.jabber.org/, but so they would be able to control and monitor conversations between folks all over the world.
Today email would never be created and be successful. It isn't centralized.
If I want to talk to my friends, they know where to find me on IRC. If I'm not there, I'm either offline or don't feel like talking. They can send me email and I'll get around to it eventually.
If I *really* want to talk to them I'll use a telephone.
If all else fails, there's this radical concept of making marks on processed wood pulp, paying a nominal charge to a large, fairly efficient organization that will HAND DELIVER the message to their door! Wow!
And why the hell is anyone on slashdot using the MSN Messenger chat protocol when there are tons of other (re: Free) options available anyways?
That's like saying I don't like XXX Store, while buying XXX brand yyy at a different outlet.
I'm going to shake my head and slowly back away.
There is a difference between what the KKK and the Boy Scouts of America can do behind closed doors and who Denny's is allowed to deny service too. Both operate on private property, but Denny's is a place of "public accommodation" while the others are members only hate groups.
I seriously think you have your ideas screwed up. Since when have the boy scouts been a part of ANY hate group?
The KKK is notorious for doing things because of their inferiority complex against anything that isn't pasty white. But the boy scouts?
You sir, are full of shit.
WASTE. Legal in my opinion (let the flames begin), however I have seen several well written variations using GPG/PGP keys for small networks on both MS-Windows, Linux, BSD systems myself.
/. whenever it goes Open Source & Free. This thing kicks ass totally because it can run completely independant on a P2P level, while at the same time if you have a central server to connect to, it kicks major butt only b/c it still uses P2P. Think of the central server(s) as being a common connection point (much like a spies rendovous point, then moving around a lot) and then being independant.
I can't give you a name of the program, only because it doesn't have one and the authors prefer to remain anon.
I'll post an article on
Cheers!
What the hell is the thing on the side of Bill's head for Microsoft Topics on the front page?
and since your friends are pawns to the corporate machine they will be used as purchasable consumers that can be had for pennies on the dollar through advertising or subversive distribution. And if you just join them then you are assisting in this act of undermining the very basis of capitalism. Choices matter. Dollars matter. Continuing to sit idly by and let consumers do what the corporate machine wants them to will only exacerbate the situation. I don't really care for AOL but really, they brought us this technology and the format and the massive database of clientele that made it all worthwhile ... if they can't have a monopoly on this then I'll be damned if I'll do anything or passively let anything happen that will give Microsoft any such monopoly.
So in return, you can stop using their service. There are plenty of others out there. Use one. Whether or not your friends will switch is irrelevant. It's like saying you want to use CB radios to talk, and the rest of your friends want to use walkie-talkies. Figure that crap out with them.
The next step is kind of obvious. (-:
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Practicing fellatios on crucifices is what every good Christian whore should do. Before killing themselves, that is.