PlayStation 3 HDD to Ship With Linux

timtwobuck writes "Gamespot.com is reporting that Ken Kutaragi, president of Sony Computer Entertainment, has disclosed in an interview that PlayStation 3 will natively run Linux. In fact, it will come bundled with it, if you purchase the HDD peripheral." From the article: "But while Linux would require a hard drive to run on, Kutaragi told Impress PC Watch, 'We're not going to equip [the PS3 with] a HDD by default, because no matter how much [capacity] we put in it, it won't be enough.' It was unclear whether he was referring to the previously known fact that the PS3 would not have an internal hard drive or whether he was indicating that the device would not come with the external 2.5-inch detachable HDD outlined in the specs revealed at E3."

Comments

Not suprising.

[mindaktiviti]

This is not suprising. Of course they wouldn't ship it with Windows, they don't want to fund their direct competitor!

Re:Not suprising.

[alexandreracine]

The money is made with the hardware (in PS3 case), not directly with the software...

And unless they buy a copy from india (1$), I don't think they will change the price of the PS3 just to include Windows.

Re:Not suprising.

[mindaktiviti]

Yes, but they wouldn't even buy it from India. They wouldn't even put it in if they got it for free, simply because Microsoft = XBox = competitor.

Re:Not suprising.

[Spy Hunter]

What are you talking about? This is very surprising. It doesn't have to come with a PC OS at all. Listen to this quote: "It will become completely open if we equip it with Linux, and programmers will be able to do anything with it." This is a total about-face from the normal attitude console makers have, which is "we control the hardware, we control the software, and you can't do anything we don't like with it or we'll sue you."

Of course, no matter what exact words are coming out of Kutaragi's mouth, I'm sure what he *really* means is closer to the second statement. But it's interesting that they are trying to position the PS3 as a real computer, not just a game console. If they really do equip it with Linux and provide dev tools, they won't be able to control the resulting flood of hacks, emulators, media center applications, indie games, and the like.

Re:Not suprising.

[Anonymous Coward]

The money is made with the hardware (in PS3 case), not directly with the software...And unless they buy a copy from india (1$), I don't think they will change the price of the PS3 just to include Windows.

Impressive. I believe that you have missed the point on multiple levels:

First of all, Sony makes money on the games themselves, not on the PlayStation Box. Every time you buy a game for the PS (EA or any other game maker), you are sending a few bucks to Sony. Millions of games results in millions of dollars in profits.

Secondly, Sony does NOT want to send money to Microsoft. If they put Windows on the PS3, then every time someone purchased a PS3, some money would end up in the pocket of Microsoft. Why would Sony want to fund their primary competitor in the games market?

Re:Not suprising.

[Anonymous Coward]

It is especially not suprising as there is currently a linux kit that sony sells for the ps2, it only makes sense that it will be in the ps3.

Btw. with linux they would be able to edit the OS to suit the ps3's hardware natively. It is a very good move by sony.

Re:Not suprising.

[zzendpad]

So why do Sony Vaio machines ship with Windows, then?

Re:Not suprising.

[double-oh three]

Well, they probably stand to profit more off the hardware anyway, especially if they can market it as a real computer.

Re:Not suprising.

[Trigun]

You mean they won't be able to contol the desire for everyone to have this machine, instead of buying their competitors product? They won't have to worry about people poking around their bios and reverse engineering it, because there would only be one reason to do that? They won't be able to handle the heaps of praise placed upon them from the open source community?

Damn, this looks like a bad move on their part.

Re:Not suprising.

[toad3k]

Maybe they have higher aspirations for the cell than video games. If people start developing on the ps3's, they might be in a better position to market it as a real chip.

Re:Not suprising.

[Anonymous Coward]

If they really do equip it with Linux and provide dev tools, they won't be able to control the resulting flood of hacks, emulators, media center applications, indie games, and the like.

If this were the case, then the PS2 would have been subject to countless hacks... moreso than the XBox judging from your statement. Sony sold Linux kits for their PS2 systems. 40GB hard drive included, but yet, it was the XBox that was constantly hacked to no end.

Re:Not suprising.

[ranolen]

"we control the hardware, we control the software, and you can't do anything we don't like with it or we'll sue you"

This is perfectly normal. You are purchasing a console gaming machine, not a box that needs linux on it. Enough with having to mod everything and just use your computer like a normal person.

Re:Not suprising.

[Anonymous Coward]

"...they won't be able to control the resulting flood of hacks, emulators, media center applications, indie games, and the like."

They may actually be *counting* on a flood of user-created material raising the profile and perceived value of their console. Think about it - for basically no investment on the part of Sony, the PS3 will have a whole library of user-created applications and games. These applications will help make the PS3 more attractive and encourage people to select the PS3 over the competing gaming systems. And with the level of effort it takes to develop a commercially viable game for these systems, it's unlikely you'll see any direct competition from indie games causing Sony to sweat.

Re:Not suprising.

[gabebear]

I was thinking how they could still retain enough control so that they still make butt loads of money.

But the more I thought about it the more putting linux on the PS3 makes sense.

• It costs them very little to develop a distro for the PS3
• This gets them around the console tax in Europe(like they tried and failed to do with YaBasic on the PS2)
• Big game programming companies will still need Sony's PS3 SDK for at least the first several years
• Once non-Sony dev kits are good enough, they will be making money just selling the console

Re:Not suprising.

[hubang]

There weren't that many games for the Linux PS2 kit. Some cool hacks, but not many games.

Re:Not suprising.

[WilyCoder]

The PC gaming market has an OS, development tools, etc. If giving users the right to develop is bad, why is the PC market still around?

If/when the PC market collapses, do you think it will be because the manufacturers gave the users the ability to write their own code?

-Indie PC game developer

Re:Not suprising.

[Spy Hunter]

That's because nobody else had the Linux kit. Everybody who has a PS3 hard drive will have Linux. Of course, the Linux games won't hold a candle to the official licensed PS3 games. But you'll be able to play tons of silly little arcade games, solitaire, Frozen Bubble, things like that. At the very least, all the games you can play on Linux now. The concept of mainstream users playing a non-officially-licensed game on a PS3 is quite novel.

Re:Not suprising.

[Registered Coward v2]

They may actually be *counting* on a flood of user-created material raising the profile and perceived value of their console. Think about it - for basically no investment on the part of Sony, the PS3 will have a whole library of user-created applications and games. These applications will help make the PS3 more attractive and encourage people to select the PS3 over the competing gaming systems

While that is a nice idea, where is the flood of games for the existing Linux base? There are some, but it's not Linux is a viable gaming option; porting it to the PS3 isn't going to change that. A more likely scenario is that existing games require a recomplie or modification to run on the PS3, which means a lot of "It doesn't work!!!" and :Fix it yourself, luser!" posts. Sony's actions could, depending on how they do this, hurt Linux if stuff won't run like it does on Windows or OSX.

That doesn't mean Sony doesn't have some grand plan, but I doubt 3rd party Linux aps are a short term goal or the reason for putting Linux on the HD.

And with the level of effort it takes to develop a commercially viable game for these systems, it's unlikely you'll see any direct competition from indie games causing Sony to sweat.

Which is why I thinl PS3 Linux is not going to make much of a splash.

Re:Not suprising.

[Anonymous Coward]

What I don't understand is why doesn't sony stick with bsd platform especially freebsd or openbsd where you don't run a "GPL"ed kernel. It made absolutly no sense since if they distribute dev tools and linux, they'd have to make money on the console... which is very very unlikely as the other companies such as microsoft and nintendo both plan on bleeding red on their new console. However, this will be interesting. I would love to see more games being developed for linux.

P.S. Hope the games don't require root to run >.>

Re:Not suprising.

[Rallion]

Whoa, hold up. You expect them to profit on the hardware? I don't think so.

Re:Not suprising.

[phoenix42]

exactly. I think we're going to see a point eventually in console development where home-brew applications can customize peoples console gaming experience just like their PC gaming experience with out all the PC fuss of building custom rigs and fooling with windows. Hardware thats designed for gaming, with stable software thats custom for every user. Sounds like a good set-up to me.

Re:Not suprising.

[shadowzero313]

just use your computer like a normal person

You must be new here. Where's the fun in Word and Excel?

Re:Not suprising.

[mbelly]

Because Microsoft doesnt sell computer systems. PS3 will compete with XBox 360, Sony Vaio competes with... nothing microsoft makes. They wont totally boycott Microsoft, but putting a competitor's software product on their hardware product wouldnt be good for business. (Especially since MS could put in potentially damaging code, etc.)

Re:Not suprising.

[EastCoastSurfer]

If the leaked price of $465/each is correct they might at least break even.

Re:Not suprising.

[Spy Hunter]

That's IBM's domain. Sony doesn't own Cell. I'm not sure what agreements they do have with IBM, but I'm sure IBM stands to make a lot more profit than Sony if Cell takes off as a general purpose chip.

Re:Not suprising.

[creysoft]

At the very least, all the games you can play on Linux now.

Both of them!? I keed, I keed...

Re:Not suprising.

[Ford Prefect]

This gets them around the console tax in Europe(like they tried and failed to do with YaBasic on the PS2)

I think this should be in Big and Bold lettering - I really wouldn't be surprised if it's all an attempt to get it classified as a computer rather than an entertainment system.

Still, it's a rather nifty thing to do, and I hope it's a decent, properly supported system that people will end up with...

Re:Not suprising.

[rapiddescent]

it is not surprising for anyone in the EU because "computers" and "toys" attract different import duties. Anyone who bought an original playstation 2 in the UK got a programming language with the console so that Sony could say that it was a computer and not a toy; i.e. it was user programmable. I don't think they got away with it in the end and the folks who got Linux to work on the PS2 have saved Sony a lot of effort to prove it is a computer,

TFA alludes to this when Kutaragi says "...So even though we're making something that has the capability to be recognized as a supercomputer and requires paperwork when exporting or importing, the government sees it as a toy."

Computers do not have import tarriffs following the implementation of the WTO Ministerial Declaration on Trade in Information Technology Products (ITA).

In general, toys are subject to import tarriffs although, it is difficult to say when a toy is a toy and not sporting equipment or a computer in this case.

I have terrible problems exporting and importing mountain bike components.

Re:Not suprising.

[ucblockhead]

That explains all those Linux based Vaios.

Re:Not suprising.

[daviq]

Or they wouldn't ship with Windows because it is a bunch of junk...

Re:Not suprising.

[Anonymous Coward]

you're making a lot of assumptions there. perhaps he just means a version of linux, that just runs a sony media content browser and has no real console and no real X. perhaps there are no dev tools. this would be similar to their linux PVR they released in Japan.

there will obviously be gcc changes given by ibm for the cell, but it's gonna take a lot more than that. especially if they run linux not as a real os but within a virtual machine or as an application (as quite a few embedded applications have done).

i think this is mostly just moke and mirrors to try and get a lot of geeks to wait for the ps3. we'll of course have to wait and see what we really get, but until then, as with all he's said, we can take it with a grain of salt.

Re:Not suprising.

[Dr. Manhattan]

If this were the case, then the PS2 would have been subject to countless hacks

The Linux on PS/2 had some serious limitations. It didn't run on the raw hardware, it ran on a bit of an abstraction layer, that enforced some limitations, like no DVD playing, as I understand it. I saw a presentation by the one of the guys who made the compute cluster out of PS2s and he said that the access checks in that abstraction layer seriously slowed down certain operations.

Making games for PS3 Linux will probably have to deal with limitations (like the screen resolution limits on the PSP - it won't let just any program use the full native screen resolution, just ones approved by Sony) and won't be a good commercial bet since probably most people won't have a hard drive hooked up to their PS3...

Re:Not suprising.

[Anonymous Coward]

Playing Trash-My-Document roulette.

Re:Not suprising.

[iwan-nl]

I play UT 2004, Wolvenstein:ET, America's Army, and FlightGear on linux. Those may not be up to par with PS3 games (or the latest windows games for that matter), but I wouldn't call them "silly little arcade games".

Re:Not suprising.

[nbritton]

I think that will be all it takes. If you can do anything you want with it. the techies will buy it up like mad. this increses the number of units sold. then we have the teenagers etc. that just want to play games on it. they will look at the number of total units sold (game mags. etc.) and compare it to mircosoft's total units sold. Microsoft's numbers will look very low and everyone will say, if everyone else has a PS3 then I gotta get one too. thus everything comes out in the wash and microsoft is out, again.

Re:Not suprising.

[GraemeDonaldson]

I'd say Sony would get a fair chunk of profit too, seeing that they developed Cell in partnership with IBM and Toshiba.

Re:Not suprising.

[topper24hours]

So possibly IBM helped them make this decision? They are VERY pro-open source.

Re:Not suprising.

[fr0dicus]

omg, my time machine works! I'm communicating with 1997!

Re:Not suprising.

[danny31415]

The more fundamental reason they could not run Windows on it; it has a PowerPC inside. I doubt Microsoft is going to port Windows to PowerPC/Cell for Sony to use. So the problem isn't Sony not wanting to fund Microsoft. Even if they wanted Windows, Microsoft wouldn't give it to them (in PowerPC form).

Re:Not suprising.

[Khuffie]

They also worked with Toshiba on the Cell processor. And in another camp, they're in direct competition with guess who? Yup, Toshiba in that whole Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD spectacle.

Re:Not suprising.

[leeharris100]

If the PS2 is any representation of the protection Sony is going to put into all their future consoles, then using Linux for any kind of hacks/modding will most likely take forever and yield only moderate results. The techies who actually know about the modding scene will go with the 360, considering it will most likely be much easier to mod and to port software from the original Xbox.

Re:Not suprising.

[leeharris100]

And also, unless homebrew developers wanna spend an assload of time learning to program for the cell processor and going through with it, the Xbox core will provide easier to work with.

Re:Not suprising.

[SScorpio]

I don't know. The Playstation 2 Linux Kit had a port Red Hat distro that Sony officially released themselves. It booted to a console, included X, and had GCC so you could code your own programs.

The PS2's Linux ran in an abstracted layer where you weren't getting right down to the raw hardware, and its 32MB of RAM limitation made it run pretty slow, but it was cool none the less.

Re:Not suprising.

[Anonymous Coward]

... but I doubt 3rd party Linux aps are a short term goal or the reason for putting Linux on the HD ...

I probably missed the point in a previous post you made, but what are your thoughts on why they decided to put Linux on the HD?

Re:Not suprising.

[Fr33z0r]

Anyone who bought an original playstation 2 in the UK got a programming language with the console so that Sony could say that it was a computer and not a toy

I don't remember that coming with mine... Is this a new thing?

Re:Not suprising.

[timeOday]

What you say is true and may even seem obvious, but for a bigwig at Sony to see it that way? That's not only surprising, but outright bizarre.

Re:Not suprising.

[timeOday]

Sony's actions could, depending on how they do this, hurt Linux if stuff won't run like it does on Windows or OSX.

I think releasing it on the sly, i.e. not next to Linspire on the shelves at WalMart, is the best imaginable way to avoid criticism for non-polished "product" while fostering the development of a PS3-as-computer community and gauging user and developer response.

Re:Not suprising.

[rochrist]

Considering the hardware limitations, and particularly the memory contraints, it ran surprisingly well.

Re:Not suprising.

[Anonymous Coward]

Listen: Sony will say ANYTHING to get people to hold off on buying an Xbox 360, which will be released first. Don't trust everything you read.

Re:Not suprising.

[Gid1]

IIRC, this was specifically to get round UK import tax, with a computer being taxed less than a toy. I think the response was roughly, "Scyeah, right." so I guess they gave up.

Re:Not suprising.

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget Neverwinter Nights and Doom 3!

Re:Not suprising.

[IntergalacticWalrus]

But most of them won't run under PS3 Linux.

Re:Not suprising.

[apoc06]

nah, of course sony wouldnt sweat the homebrew factor. its the piracy factor that they are afraid of. its like handing over the key to the door because the valuables are in a safe and then telling everyone the combination of the safe too.

i mean in a perfect world sony would create a image disk with whatever lowlevel linux that they are going to use as their gaming environment and another partition with a distro of linux that you can futz around with til your hearts content. lil jimmy destroyed both partitions with his latest game development project? no problem, stick the cd in and it returns the HD to the default factory state.

that would be perfect, but what about when lil jimmy wants the latest and greatest games? youve got your gigabit ethernet, he coded up his own p2p app in linux, and now hes got the games downloaded. whats the next step? you got it, hes gonna code up his own loader. next stop? jail! lil jimmie is getting hauled off for piracy, since the built-in DRM on the ps3 reported him the second he downloaded the iso.

but in all honesty, many many enthusiasts release their own independent games out into the market. many many computer games are pirated. homebrew will not steal the spotlight from a million dollar industry [although i LOVE the idea of mods, updates and patches for console games]. piracy will always be an issue, period. might as well stare it head on and pray on the strength of your DRM and that for the first couple of years blu-ray burners will be too expensive for casual piracy. your more hardcore gamers will STILL go out and buy the games they love and that will be that.

Re:Not suprising.

[Anonymous Coward]

From what I have read, Kutaragi is a very unusual executive. He is a real tech dreamer.

Re:Not suprising.

[Anonymous Coward]

PlayStation 3 HDD to Ship With Linux

What distribution is bundling it? Must be Gentoo. Debian is probably shipping with the PS1.

Re:Not suprising.

[MindStalker]

As long as they don't region lock it that is.

Re:Not suprising.

[jacksonj04]

Stable, Custom, Cheap. Pick two.

Re:Not suprising.

[MindStalker]

Yes, but PC makers don't sell at a loss and make up on licensing for games. Obviously Sony is selling the machine for a profit, but they obviously can't compete with MS on price in the long run that way. Though they could compete with Dell if they can really make this a generally computer.

Re:Not suprising.

[imroy]

...the folks who got Linux to work on the PS2...

That would be Sony. It's not mentioned very much, but (IIRC) the PS/2 has some pretty strong DRM measures. For example, you can't simply compile your own kernel to run on the PS/2. The PS/2 Linux kit comes with a signed kernel and you're stuck with it. You also can't make your own bootable CD's with it. Sony wouldn't want people to start making PS/2 games without a pricey license! And (IIRC) the PS/2 doesn't accept CDR's anyway, so the only way for would-be game/demo developers to move their wares around is on USB thumb drives. I would be surprised if this PS/3 Linux kit is any better.

Re:Not suprising.

[leuk_he]

you need opengl for most of them. Will ps3 have an good open gl implementation? doubtful...

but i cannot tell you.

Re:Not suprising.

[rm69990]

Yes, and where is the source code for those games? You'll need it to port it to the Cell processor.

Open Source works for many things (kernels, web browsers, etc.) where tiny little inconsistencies between, say, Red Hat's and SUSE's versions don't matter.

Imagine if Doom 3 was open source with each distro bundling it and modifying the story a bit. Or the cheat codes.

Re:Not suprising.

[MikeFM]

To clarify, I think they'll profit off the hardware but not from the hardware sold as PS3's. They'll profit from licensing the same technology to other companies.

Sony is going after the PC and server markets. They are selling the PS3 at a loss as if it were a game console and positioning it to grab the game console market at the same time but really what they want is the computer market. If (magic word there) they do this the way I think they are trying for they'll be able to create the entertainment center meets PC meets thin client that has long been discussed and never delivered and not only will they deliver it but they'll also put it in millions of living rooms. The PS3 sounds as if it can compete with top of the line PCs at a better price point and still offer everything and more a PC can offer. On top of that the PS3 has been designed from the ground up to take advantage of clustering and the network. Stick another PS3, or Cell enabled device, into your house and the CPU power scales. All the machines talk to each other to share CPU power as well as to provide networked resources. Look at the friggin number of network ports (and Wifi!) the PS3 has. That should definately tell you about their plans. The PS3 has a realistic chance of shattering the PC market.

He even mentioned the PS3 Server. THAT sounds interesting. Especially since IBM was showing off Cell-based rack mounted systems.

Counting on all this Sony, Toshiba, and IBM are planning on making some big change off selling the Cell to other companies such that they can intergrate the Cell into their own PC and entertainment electronics. Everything from your TV to your desktop PC could be running a Cell processor. The money they lose from selling the PS3 will easily be made back from this market. Also I imagine that they'll still be licensing all the usual goodies. Yes, you might be able to run your own apps on the PS3 and use any joystick you want with it but to get a Sony certified game or joystick the maker will still have to hand over the bucks. Without doing so Sony might not let them use their trademarks such as 'Made for the PS3.'

Re:Not suprising.

[Spy Hunter]

Perhaps it will. Sony's official development kit actually is based on OpenGL. A derivitive of NVidia's chip will likely be used in their next PC graphics cards, meaning that Linux will have a driver that just might be hacked to work. PS3 Linux is likely to be restricted from using the graphics card, but those restrictions may be broken.

Also, a version of Mesa running completely in software, optimized for Cell, might actually be pretty awesome. Graphics rendering is probably an ideal task for Cell's SPEs. I'd be willing to bet that it would give high-end graphics cards from two or three years ago a run for their money.

Re:Not suprising.

[MikeFM]

Being able to access the EyeToy would be cool. I wonder if they'll provide some sort of interface to calculating screen to movement relations. It'd be fun to make the mentioned Minority Report style interface into X.

Re:Not suprising.

[aichpvee]

It's been widely rumoured that Sony would be using OpenGL for PS3. I'm not sure if those were ever confirmed one way or the other, though.

Re:Not suprising.

[Spy Hunter]

I think there are two factors that will make PS3 Linux a different situation than PS2 Linux. Firstly, it is possible that the hard drive will become a very popular and widespread peripheral, unlike the PS2 hard drive. This means that many people will be able to run Linux. Secondly, most PS3s will be networked. This means it will be possible to move code around trivially, without needing slow and clunky Flash memory or a modchip.

With so many people able to run PS3 Linux, the stakes for breaking whatever protections Sony imposes will be much higher. I wouldn't be surprised if 6 months after PS3's release Linux has broken out of whatever sandbox Sony puts it in with a purely software hack. With the ease of transferring code to your PS3 over the network, this hack could easily reach a wide audience. The only problem is that software updates from Sony's online services might hunt down and destroy unauthorized Linux, and newer hardware revisions might close the security holes Linux would use.

Re:Not suprising.

[ReverendLoki]

I get the feeling that there will be more than "silly little" arcade games. Anyone want to try and guess the total elapsed time between the release of PS3 Linux and the release of a publically available ported version of MAME for PS3 Linux?

Re:Not suprising.

[Shazow]

"Sony's actions could, depending on how they do this, hurt Linux if stuff won't run like it does on Windows or OSX.

This could go either way though. If it _does_ run as well (or better) than Windows or OSX, then it will greatly benefit Linux.
Or Similarly, if the XBox 360 red-screens, there will be an abundance of ridicule for Windows.
Or if the Intel Apple chips are a flop, then OSX (or Apple as a whole) will probably get a bit of negative feel (especially if OSX doesn't work that well ported).

It's all about reputation -- the products don't have to be directly related.

- shazow

Re:Not suprising.

[Anonymous Coward]

1) Insert floppy
2) save document on floppy
3) close word
4) open document from floppy
5) remove floppy
6) save document to harddrive (or a different floppy)
7) Welcome to the 21st century!

This is known to BSOD NT4 with Office 2000, win2k+office xp will simply announce that data has been lost. Someone should check and see if 2003 still uses the floppy drive for tempfiles.

Re:Not suprising.

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course they can market this as a real computer; in fact, it will make today's 'real' computers look fake by comparison. People are putting down all of Sony's moves as the wrong decision, but I see every move as very smart. Not only will I be able to play pure eye-candy games, I will also be able to render my fractal animations in HD in a reasonable amount of time, and then edit the video using my linux-based editing software. Today's computer's are barely able to handle rendering HD video. The PS3 will enable everyone to create their own HD content and broadcast it to the world. People, stop saying that this and that is a bad move by Sony. Wake up and realize that this is going to be HUGE.

Re:Not suprising.

[imroy]

The PS/2 Linux kit also came with an ethernet adaptor (photo of complete kit).

It remains to be seen whether the PS3 HDD kit will become popular. If it is optional, then many game developers will design their games assuming it isn't available. Only some features will make use of the optional HDD e.g for saved games or perhaps screenshots. It's all a feed-back loop though. If the HDD becomes popular for some reason, then game developers will be more inclined to make use of it, on the assumption that "most people have one anyway". But there has to be some reason for it to become popular in the first place. People aren't going to cough up $100-$200 for something they don't need or want. So we'll have to wait and see how Sony markets the PS/3 and HDD peripheral. It's possible that pressure from the Xbox 360 might make them change. But the original Xbox had a HD as well and doesn't seem to have influenced them. The excuse of "we'll never make it big enough for everyone" is pretty lame, IMNSHO.

As to cracking the PS/3 DRM, I doubt it. Sony controls almost every aspect of the hardware. Unlike the Xbox it won't simply be a modified PC, with a modified BIOS and hard drive (?). I haven't heard about anyone cracking the PS/2 yet, so I don't expect the PS/3 to be easily cracked either.

Re:Not suprising.

[Babbster]

You know, there was enough Kool-Aid here for everyone before you showed up. Why did you have to drink ALL of it?

Re:Not suprising.

[Cryect]

Ummmm the PS2 was cracked long ago... really long ago before the XBox was released.

Now the GCN has only been cracked recently and it was really a pain to be cracked requiring the entire optical drive BIOS to be redone.

Re:Not suprising.

[jericho4.0]

Linux is supported on the Cell by IBM. Linux already runs on the Cell. And if it was so easy to port to the 360, why can't MS do backwards compatibility?

Re:Not suprising.

[leeharris100]

Linux, but the apps and games made for linux dont utilize it! And I don't know if you knew, but they can. The majority of the problem was that they switched DirectX, changed Nvidia to ATI, and went to a triple core PPC. When you have source code for apps, it's not hard to change over to a different setup.

Re:Not suprising.

[imroy]

Huh, I stand corrected then! I guess this would allow a PS/2 Linux kit user to compile their own kernel. Not to mention the possibilities for piracy.

Re:Not suprising.

[leeharris100]

Sorry, by "And I don't know if you knew, but they can." I was talking about backwards compatibility. Long day of work D:

Re:Not suprising.

[Spy Hunter]

As I said, the stakes are higher for PS3. If you broke PS2 Linux's restrictions, nobody would care. PS2s are slow, with little RAM, and the hard drive doesn't even work with new PS2s. Back when PS2s were actually decent computers, the hard drive wasn't available.

I am skeptical that Sony's Linux sandbox will stand up to the concerted efforts of hackers the world over. This could be the most prestigious hack yet in the history of console hacks. I don't know of *any* security system in a consumer product that has *ever* stood up to that kind of hacking power.

I think the HDD will become popular because I think Sony will be releasing PVR/media center functionality with it, and generally making a HD-equipped PS3 useful for things other than games. Also I think online games will start requiring it for patches and user content.

I think Kutaragi's comment should be taken as "we can't afford to include a big enough hard drive", not "we can't get a big enough hard drive to put in it". Sure, they *could* include a 200 GB HDD, but it would price the console way out of the market. It's already going to be too expensive. If they include a 20 GB HDD, it would be practically worthless as a PVR, especially for HD. If they sell the HDD later they can hide the cost from consumers at first, then rake in profit in a year or so when everybody realizes they want one. If Sony makes it a priority, they can make the hard drive extremely desirable (forcing popular games to require the HDD, providing PVR, digital photo/music storage, downloadable games, etc).

Re:Not suprising.

[MikeFM]

Sorry. Kool-Aid is my fav stuff. ;)

Really though, the design is pretty interesting. Also I did say IF what they were trying to do works for them.. that is always a big IF. Sony has a pretty strong history of success though.

Being followed up by the article on IBM's efforts to create an open platform based on the PowerPC and Cell processors would seem to back up my guesses. And they sold off the last of their old PC company ownings a while back. To me it looks like they're trying to create a new PC reference platform with IBM, Toshiba, and Sony making some big bucks from it. x86 has been painfully dated for years and IBM seems to understand why they lost their way with their last IBM PC platform. Think they can reboot the industry? I'd not bet against them. They're playing a smart game so far.

Re:Not suprising.

[Anonymous Coward]

They should do something really c001, like ablity to download Linux image (from a user determinable location) to an usb stick and then boot from that. A cheap pc box in the closet could provide the disk space. I don't even know if ps3 has usb port, but you get the idea.
Also, I'm under impression, that console makers the most the $$$ from the games, and even if Sony left the hardware completely open for Linux users, they should not have too much to worry about. OSS gaming scene wasn't really booming last time I checked.

Re:Not suprising.

[imroy]

I hadn't thought of the PVR/media centre angle. That could certainly make the HDD popular. Selling it with an external USB/1394 tuner for local TV standards (PAL/NTSC/SECAM or DVB/ATSC) would better justify the cost to most people, instead of it simply being a HDD+Linux kit.

It will be interesting to see if/how Sony presents the PVR/media centre capabilities. MS is going after that market pretty agressively with MCE and the Xbox 360. With Sony's ties to the entertainment industry one would expect them to also go after this market. But at the same time it cripples them. They already have lots of other devices that do similar things e.g CD/DVD players, portable music players, VHS/DVD recorders, tape decks, etc. They wouldn't want to damage the profits from those devices by making an all-in-one device that is cheap compared to the multiple devices it replaces. They're also very sensitive about piracy because of the amount of music, movies, and TV content that their various divisions. Just look at their refusal to support MP3 on their portable players. Although haven't they recently given in to supporting MP3? Either way, any PVR they make will be locked down pretty hard with DRM. Much like MS's MCE.

As for cracking, I've been corrected by another poster. Apparently the PS/2 has been cracked for many years now. In that light, maybe the PS/3 won't stand up for long. But they've likely learnt from the PS/2 experience and have made the PS/3 much more secure. Who knows... we'll have to see.

Re:Not suprising.

[KillShill]

they get massive tax breaks if they categorize their console as a "computer".

that's all they're doing.

and i don't believe for a minute they are opening up the system. they will somehow cripple linux and or the interaction of it with the hardware. it won't be FREE (lilbra). it'll be like MS open source efforts i.e. not worth a damn.

sony and ms and nintendo are control freaks. they will deny you the customer of the use of your own hardware which you purchased, if at all possible. it makes zero sense for them to suddenly do an about face on the issue of DRM aka handcuffed "consumer" mode (HCM).

oh and before i forget... CELL is engineered from the ground up for DRM.

happy linuxing. :)

Re:Not suprising.

[Registered Coward v2]

... but I doubt 3rd party Linux aps are a short term goal or the reason for putting Linux on the HD ...

I probably missed the point in a previous post you made, but what are your thoughts on why they decided to put Linux on the HD?

While it is possible Sony has a developer that is working on an app that uses Linux based app they that want for the PS3;

a scenario I find more plausable is Sony has some custom app they are developing and want to run it on Linux (no licensing fees to MS), and HDD is an easy way to add the OS. Maybe a web app, TiVO like device, or even the front end for a game rental/purchase system. Making the PS3 a mediua device with TV recording / music playing / streaming internet feeds would make sense as well - especially since some companies already use Linux as the base.

Then again, maybe they just like Linux.

Re:Not suprising.

[Anonymous Coward]

It is a very clever move ... Sony can still have control over it's proprietry games ( that's where it will make it's money ) ... but what will really make the PS3 shine above the Xbox 360 et al is an active developer community ... ie a bunch of advocates who spend there time tweaking the console to create interesting and useful apps such as a media centre etc ... from this core, interest from other users develops eg if someone can port open office to it the device becomes much more useful to non-game users and makes it a cheap & viable alternative to a Windows PC running Microsoft Office

Re:Not suprising.

[rsynnott]

I wonder will we see people who do Altivec-intensive cluster software fleeing to this from the ruins of Apple?

Re:Not suprising.

[6e7a]

Maybe this is the beginning of the end for the Wintel platform. Just imagine... instead of IBM PC compatible hardware running Windoze, we could have Sony PS3 compatible hardware running Linux. A new platform standard!

Re:Not suprising.

[CronoCloud]

While that is a nice idea, where is the flood of games for the existing Linux base? There are some, but it's not Linux is a viable gaming option; porting it to the PS3 isn't going to change that. A more likely scenario is that existing games require a recomplie or modification to run on the PS3, which means a lot of "It doesn't work!!!" and :Fix it yourself, luser!" posts. Sony's actions could, depending on how they do this, hurt Linux if stuff won't run like it does on Windows or OSX.

Most likely Sony will just start up a "Linux for the Playstation 3" community site. They'll have boards and whatnot for questions and probably supply some precompiled RPM's or whatever.

Linux on the PS2 itself is usable by a non-developer type person, as long as they're willing to do a bit of reading and learning.

Re:Not suprising.

[CronoCloud]

My guess is: About as long as it takes to compile it and make a .deb or rpm of it. A week, tops.

Re:Not suprising.

[Dr. Manhattan]

Being able to access the EyeToy would be cool.

It's just a generic webcam plus a microphone. There's even a beta Linux driver you can Google for. The magic is in the software, and even that's not too amazing, it's just edge detection and such. But it is fun, and a great way to get kids to exercise. :->

Re:Not suprising.

[MikeFM]

Probably so (never actually looked at it closely) but what'd be really cool is if it could be accessed in some standard way like a keyboard or mouse without needing to know what's happening behind the curtain.

I assume it tracks motion so possibly it could pass that along as mouse data. It'd be pretty cool to use actual hand gestures to control my apps from across the room. Wave my hand down to scroll down, up for up, jab my fist in to click, stuff like that. Maybe have a coloring book I could color on just by waving my hands or even feet. Or make a game like Everquest that lets you cast spells with hand motions... swish and flick!

I guess I could research how it works and write my own API that creates such an interface from any camera but it'd be better if Sony did it as they actually have experience in the area. :)

Re:Not suprising.

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude it's PS2, not a fucking IBM keyboard and mouse connector.

Re:Not suprising.

[lidocaineus]

go buy a fingerworks keyboard. you rae now 90% of the way to the (overly hyped) minority report interface.

Re:Not suprising.

[KDR_11k]

[i]Secondly, Sony does NOT want to send money to Microsoft. If they put Windows on the PS3, then every time someone purchased a PS3, some money would end up in the pocket of Microsoft. Why would Sony want to fund their primary competitor in the games market?[/i]

Then why did Kutaragi use Windows and OSX as examples of other OSes that could be ported to the PS3?

Re:Not suprising.

[KDR_11k]

Argh, those stupid board codes elsewhere completely screw up my HTML...

Re:Not suprising.

[q.kontinuum]

Grand-parent wrote:

They may actually be *counting* on a flood of user-created material raising the profile and perceived value of their console.

You wrote:

While that is a nice idea, where is the flood of games for the existing Linux base?

That's two different subjects. While there is no flood of Linux-games there is a real flood of useful linux applications! What about vcr software, ray-traycing (povray etc.) and the like which might benefit a lot from 8 independent DPS's ? What about OpenOffice, Browser, ... ? I don't know about the power consuption of the PS3, but with this software the box could replace the average PC for the typical home office and the same time the vcr. The main reason for most people not to dump Windows and switch to Linux was that there are no games for Linux. This argument is now void, since everyone can easily buy the best games, not for Linux but for the PS3. The main reason not to use the PC as a real alternative to the vcr is the high power consumption, the noise of the fans and the big ugly case. Those arguments are also void now.

Re:Not suprising.

[gabebear]

Stable, Custom, Cheap. Pick two

I think Sony has picked stable and cheap with an option to customize. They are shipping a console without a HD, but still leaving a bay where you can add one.

Re:Not suprising.

[Registered Coward v2]

That's two different subjects. While there is no flood of Linux-games there is a real flood of useful Linux applications! What about vcr software, ray-traycing (povray etc.) and the like which might benefit a lot from 8 independent DPS's ? What about OpenOffice, Browser, ... ? I don't know about the power consuption of the PS3, but with this software the box could replace the average PC for the typical home office and the same time the vcr. The main reason for most people not to dump Windows and switch to Linux was that there are no games for Linux. This argument is now void, since everyone can easily buy the best games, not for Linux but for the PS3.

If you want to play games, PS3 games make no compelling reason to switch to Linux - you can play them independent of what's on the box.

As for applications,there are still significant barriers to the PS3 adopting Linux:

1. people have to go and find the apps, and they have to work on the PS3 - if they don't it'll be like th eold machine specific MS Dos days;. And Linux developer's typical response of fix it yourself won't fly.

2. Most productivity apps require a removable storage device - so there's another box to buy and hang on the side of the PS3 (along with keyboard and mouse). Yes, you could network the PS3 and xfer the files via a shared HD, but that requires some sophistication on th epart of the user. Which brings me to the next point:

3. What will be the typical profile of the PS3 user? Are they likely to be interested and ghave the patience to deal with switching and learning Linux? Or will they want the cool games and already have a PC to do work?

4. While Linux has some good apps, people are tied into the Windows - Office (or Mac - Office) paradigm - and Linux gives no compelling reason to switch. Free is irrelevant if you already have the software, and less than 100% compatibility is a deal breaker for office and real world use.

5. Finally, PC's and PS's are multi-user machines - they are often used concurrently by different people - using a PS3 as a PC means someone can't play games - guess what happens next? Back to the desktop.

6. Tech support - Sony probably doesn't want to delve into supporting Linux and helping people get apps running - the cost and headaches aren't worth it; besides people will blame Sony if stuff doesn't work, not the original developers.

It's neat that Sony is putting Linux on the PS3 HD, but I really don't think it will make much of a difference in terms of people switching from their Mac or PC.

The main reason not to use the PC as a real alternative to the vcr is the high power consumption, the noise of the fans and the big ugly case. Those arguments are also void now.

Now, as a TiVO style device is where I see Sony making a play - not just for recording TV, but as the center of sMedia - a hybrid iTunes/video/games delivery platform that lets Sony develop a new distribution channel. Look at Sony's strengths - game consoles, consumer electronics, and music/video content - that makes a more compelling play than trying to take on Apple and MS in the OS business.

They can develop their own apps suite that runs on Linux, provide tech support for just that, and let the hobbyists have fun.

Re:Not suprising.

[MikeFM]

I didn't say it'd be a good interface. Just that it'd be cool to do. ;) Fingerworks doesn't do the parts that are really cool.. namely being able to wave your hands around in the air and by doing so control your computer. I think a combination of voice and hand tracking would be cool. Make your tv respond to voice commands or hand signals.. say "TV alert" and the tv focuses it's attention on you and lets you change the volume, channels, etc using simple hand gestures instead of having to find a remote. Flick your fingers up and down for channels.. right and left for volume. Interesting things like that.

Re:Not suprising.

[Anonymous Coward]

eh? that fw keyboard does everything - just not in the air. i've used a few of them, and have seen wizards with them. they have windows flying and resizing and moving through stacks at blinding speeds, opening documents and closing them with wrist flicks, and doing mundane mouse tasks so much faster (because they never have to remove their hands from the typing surface). and like the parent said, 90%, not 100%, ie all that's missing is a voice attenuator (which wasn't in the movie minority report, by the way), and gloves. but by adding gloves, you remove the keyboard (and hence, no typing input, just gestures). the fw keyboard has all those gestures there PLUS keyboard input, they just required a pad.

Re:Not suprising.

[nacturation]

They won't be able to handle the heaps of praise placed upon them from the open source community?

And why, exactly, would they care what 0.05% of their market has to say? If heaps of praise is what they want, they would create a console geared towards the right-wing Christian groups... where it can't play any non-jesus approved materials. Hell, I've just created the missing step:

1. Create game console which plays jebus-only games.
2. Release tons of christian games such as "Round up Noah's Animals", "Burn the Witches", "Escape the Belly of a Whale", "Convert the Heathens", and many more!
3. Those who voted for George Bush buy numerous systems and games.
4. Profit!!

Re:Not suprising.

[StevoJ]

Obviously most muppets run Windows, so it's a brand name they know and recognise. There's a good chance they may go out and buy the hard drive to install Windows on... and then find Linux already there and not bother. (hopefully)

Open source?

[AviN456]

If it's running linux, do you think that the open source nature will help with emulation programs? What about running other emulators on the PS3? Perhaps that was part of Sony's strategy. Hell, it might even run WINE fairly well.

Re:Open source?

[iapetus]

No. WINE is not an emulator, Cell is not an x86 chip.

Re:Open source?

[LWATCDR]

Well you could not run JUST Wine. You would need Wine with a cpu emulator or a JIT compiler.
The other issue will be the tool chain. Can you get a compiler for the Cell? Most emulators do not do a lot of FP so the Cells will probably not be used much for the lower end emulators.
The compiler/tool chain is going to be critical. GCC for what I have seen is not very good at vectors. For a lot of Cell development a compiler the can generate vector code will be extermly useful if not vital. Maybe Intel and or IBM could help out GCC in that area?

Re:Open source?

[listen]

But it is possible QEMU could be ported, and Transitive almost certainly would be willing to work with sony on this.... their stuff has been used for PS2 games before along with Cedega.
So wine could work using either of these options.

Re:Open source?

[MS-06FZ]

The Linux kit on the PS2 was rather limited in what it would allow you to do - access to memory cards, etc. was restricted, and I think there were restrictions on what programs you could run, too. Best bet for open-source is to wait for someone to find an exploit to crack the system's security, or get a mod chip...

Re:Open source?

[FidelCatsro]

It couldn't run wine nativly , but could it run Mac on linux

Re:Open source?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Hey, we have developed a cool but hard-to-program-for architecture!"

"Let's ship Linux with it and let the geek community do the R&D for everyone."

(sounds good to me, btw)

Re:Open source?

[maxwell demon]

WINE is not an emulator

But Bochs is. And running ReactOS on top of it would give a completely free Windows replacement. If ReactOS were already ready, of course :-)

Re:Open source?

[Anonymous Coward]

Tough to crack. PS2 Linux ran inside a castrated virualized environment, very similar to Bochs. That's why no companies wrote PS2 games for PS2 linux. Because you couldn't really use a PS2 in PS2 linux. It was a red herring to keep people from doing the same thing they did to XBox from having a strong and legal motivation to reverse engineer.

Re:Open source?

[ArsonSmith]

You could compile windows programs to winelib.

you're right wine is not an emulator, it is a library and program loader. similar to ld.so and gtk.

Re:Open source?

[DigiShaman]

Cell does copyright protection at the hardware level doesn't it? I don't think you can emulate these functions. Thus, Sony won't mind making the software run on an open source platform.

Re:Open source?

[maxwell demon]

Most emulators do not do a lot of FP so the Cells will probably not be used much for the lower end emulators.

Are you sure the Cells are only useful for FP? Since one of the main features of the Cells is that they can be pipelined, I could imagine an emulator using them in a similar way as real processors use their pipeline.

Re:Open source?

[LWATCDR]

I am not sure since I have not gotten to play with one. But from what I read they are really best at floating point DSP style stuff. Not lots of branching logic. However for MOST emulations the PPC core do just fine.

Re:Open source?

[mrogers]

Sources say PS3 Linux will include a single 16MB binary-only driver with the following interface:

void draw_pixel (int x, int y, int rgba);
int wait_for_button_press ();
void beep (int pitch, int duration);

Re:Open source?

[jojo tdfb]

Cell's really are only useful if you do lots of vector based calculations. That is, lots of floating calculations at the same time. The front end of the cpu which does the general purpose stuff is an in order ppc chip.

The best way to think of the cell as a Pentium with 8 altavec units. If you've only ever used an x86 chip, think of it as mmx only 200% better.

If your emulator runs fine on a 586, then it'll run fine on a cell. It would be passable to move some of the code in an emulator to the vector units but not all of it. Example: You could do your actual sound generation on the vector units, but not the sound chip isa.

Re:Open source?

[timeOday]

GCC for what I have seen is not very good at vectors. For a lot of Cell development a compiler the can generate vector code will be extermly useful if not vital.

I don't know; plain old sequential gcc-generated code with help from hand-vectorized OpenGL (for games) and LAPACK (for math) libraries might keep a lot of people happy without radical changes to gcc.

Then again, if Intel and AMD processors are headed towards exponentially increasing numbers of cores over the next decade, perhaps a Cell revamp of gcc would just be a head start.

Re:Open source?

[Anonymous Coward]

"The best way to think of the cell as a Pentium with 8 altavec units. If you've only ever used an x86 chip, think of it as mmx only 200% better."

Boggle!

It is scary to think just how stupid little x86 fanboys like you are out there.

Going through life as stupid as you seem to be is just lame.

Re:Open source?

[binary42]

Actually it was not virtualized. It was just run on the EE. access to the IOP was limited due to aspects of the asynchronous communications. You can have full access to hardware, it just isn't easy. For example, the memory card access was limited to a specific folder on each card. (a little patch fixed this). Useful for installing the PS2independence exploit. As for normal access one could exit the linux environment into a new one that resembled the homebrew equivalent. (I never tried it but it is said to work).

Re:Open source?

[jojo tdfb]

x86 fanboy?
Wow, I've never actually been called that before. Thanks for making me smile :)

I may have been unclear in my witting and for that I apologize to the reader. What I'm asserting is that the MMX extension on the x86 architecture is a sad attempt at a vector unit. There really is nothing like an Altavec unit on the x86. The SPE units on the Cell chip is a lot like an Altavec. Additionally the front end general purpose core is a dramaticly scaled back PowerPC 970. I haven't seen benchmarks but I'd say the performance is probably closer to a PowerPC 603 or a 586 than it is to a PowerPC 970/G5 or a Pentium 3/4.

Re:Open source?

[jericho4.0]

Not without Apple recompiling OS X for Cell. The Cell might be have Power based core, but the differences from what's been used in Macs are significant.

Linux bluetoooth support ?

[rokzy]

what's the state of linux bluetooth support (for bluetooth keyboard and mouse) ?

Re:Linux bluetoooth support ?

[FauxPasIII]

Stable but wonky interface, in my experience. You have to manually poke it to get it to attach to a
new device, and at least on my belkin parts you have to manually switch crypto off and then back on.
Oh, and anybody in the world can listen in on your keypress events, but that's not a Linux thing,
that's an auto-selected 4 numeral PIN thing ;)

Re:Linux bluetoooth support ?

[dieman]

Very good, it works great with Ubuntu and Debian as long as you can deal with setting up some things by hand (ie: editing /etc/default/bluez-utils and some files in /etc/bluetooth/)

You'll also need to setup HIDD and after the drivers and bluez-util init script has been ran just run "hidd --connect ".

For bluetooth keyboards you'll need another keyboard around to type a pin in. then type the pin into your new bluetooth keyboard to pair it.

It takes me about 5 minutes at worst these days to get a new bluetooth install going. Be sure to enable encryption and authentication in hcid.conf, too.

Re:Linux bluetoooth support ?

[blonde rser]

Check out http://www.bluez.org/. I use an apple bluetooth keyboard with my debian system without any kernel patches and it runs overall pretty well (although there are a few glitches). By the time the PS3 comes out I have confidence that it will be completely smooth.

Re:Linux bluetoooth support ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Man, poke brings back memories of the Commadore 64!
Thanks for the good memories!

Re:Linux bluetoooth support ?

[tka]

So it depends from what point of view you look at it. To a non-geek that would no support at all.

Re:Linux bluetoooth support ?

[Refrag]

How do you like that keyboard? I've been thinking of getting it for my Mac. How long do the batteries last? Is there a power switch?

Re:Linux bluetoooth support ?

[rokzy]

I have 2 - one at work and one at home for use with my iBook. probably the best keyboard I've ever known. batteries last a couple of months or so. it has a power switch for extended periods of inactivity.

Not listening to anything re HDD

[Yoje]

After the whole fiasco that Sony had with the NA release of HDD (delaying it by years, promising it would do things it never did, then abandoning it completely with the PS2 redesign after being on market less than a year), I'm not beliving anything Sony says about PS3, HDD specs or otherwise, until it is physically at the store available for purchase.

Personally, I think it would be a mistake that they not include an HDD with the console, but considering the rumoured cost of the PS3, it is probably doubtful that it will include one at launch.

Re:Not listening to anything re HDD

[Daniel Phillips]

Personally, I think it would be a mistake that they not include an HDD with the console, but considering the rumoured cost of the PS3, it is probably doubtful that it will include one at launch.

According to Sony the PS3 will have a 2.5 inch removable hard disk, 6 USB2 ports and gigabit ethernet. Yummy enough?

Re:Not listening to anything re HDD

[DogDude]

Personally, I think it would be a mistake that they not include an HDD with the console, but considering the rumoured cost of the PS3, it is probably doubtful that it will include one at launch.

What's the point of a hard drive in a console? Put in CD. Play. Save to a little memory card thingy. A hard drive just adds to the amount of stuff that can break/get FUBAR'ed. If I want to dick around with stuff that needs a hard drive (ie: more complexity), I'll sit in front of my computer.

Re:Not listening to anything re HDD

[Joseph Vigneau]

What's the point of a hard drive in a console? Put in CD. Play.

And wait, because loading all of the code, maps, textures, etc. takes a long time. With a HDD, a game can cache this stuff, allow downloadable content and patches, etc.

Lots of small, handheld devices use hard drives, why is it a stretch to make it a standard console component? It wouldn't need to have much capacity, and with a quick glance at pricewatch, it seems that 20GB 3.5" drives are less than $30, which is less than 10% of what the console will cost.

Re:Not listening to anything re HDD

[Anonymous Coward]

Ironically, this was what was done for the Japanese PS2 HDD. Final Fantasy X, Xenosaga and the like could cache data onto the HDD and use that instead of the DVD for the common data that will need to get reloaded regularly. It worked very well, but because of botched launch over here, it never flew (in fact, Sony told US devs to /NOT/ use the HDD, making it pretty worthless over here).

Re:Not listening to anything re HDD

[Anonymous Coward]

Not really...What the hell did you use the 2 USB ports on the PS2 for exactly? To print things out? Oh yeah there were only like two or three printers that worked and maybe one game. To take photos of yourself and apply them to your character? Oh yeah...once again verry few cameras and maybe one or two games. Lightguns and Eyetoy is about the only thing anyone used the USB ports for which could have just used the PS2's controler ports and and lets not get into the Firewire port. As well as gigabit ethernet? Who...cares? Unless your in a corprate environment tranfering 10+ gigs of data I don't see it being much more useful than 100MB ethernet on the PS2. If Sony misses the boat on the HD this time I will laugh myself silly. Even Nintendo is sporting a 15GB drive in the Revolution.

Re:Not listening to anything re HDD

[Daniel Phillips]

What the hell did you use the 2 USB ports on the PS2 for exactly? To print things out? Oh yeah there were only like two or three printers that worked and maybe one game.

You seem to have missed the significance of Sony supplying Linux with the machine. As far as I can see, the PS3 is turning out to be a stylish, functional and inexpensive workstation, never mind game machine.

Re:Not listening to anything re HDD

[rmac217]

What's the point of a hard drive in a console? Put in CD. Play. Save to a little memory card thingy. PATCHES. If consoles are ever going to be serious players for online gaming they need so support patches. Ever play SOCOM II online? That game sucked after about a week because of all of the cheats and bugs. I hope sony includes some sort of hard drive (even if its small) right out of the box because if it's an add-on fewer games will support it because they don't want to trim their potential market.

Re:Not listening to anything re HDD

[Anonymous Coward]

Guess you've never played online?

1 port for the USB keyboard.
1 port for the USB headset.

Re:Not listening to anything re HDD

[fbg111]

Personally, I think it would be a mistake that they not include an HDD with the console, but considering the rumoured cost of the PS3, it is probably doubtful that it will include one at launch.

Agreed, all they need is a cheap 7200rpm 5GB hdd (preferably SATA, if price is right) for Linux and little things like persistent world data and game saves, and devise a way to make it swappable with larger versions on sale at retail. Buy an 80GB version from Gamestop, plug it in via USB, run a Linux utility to image the old onto the new, physically swap the new one in, and voila. They'd have to make that process easy enough for the average cretin, but the effort is worth having a standardized hdd as part of the system, imho.

Re:Not listening to anything re HDD

[CronoCloud]

actually, I have printed things out via the USB ports on one of my PS2's, I've got a Linux kit. :-)

The USB ports on my gaming PS2 are used for keyboard/mouse and a headset.

Re:Not listening to anything re HDD

[Feztaa]

Unless the controllers are USB2, I'm not sure what the point of 6 USB2 ports is.

Even then, a 6-player game would be pretty useless if you only have one screen. dividing the screen into quarters for each player is painful enough, I can't imagine how bad it would be with six. Especially on a small screen.

I hope there's a way to hook 6 TVs up to the thing ;)

Xbox Style Linux

[IIDX]

I wonder how much effort it will take to get a standard distro running on it... a la XBox and Gentoo.

Opening the door for game pirates?

[bfizzle]

Isn't linux the reason that the xbox is so hackible?

Is this going to make it easier for people looking to copy games?

Re:Opening the door for game pirates?

[captain igor]

No, linux isn't the reason the xbox is so hackable, it because they used off the shelf commodity hardware and didn't properly secure their design.

Re:Opening the door for game pirates?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, the xbox is "so hackable" because they leave LPC points on the mobo for testing - it's easy to bypass the bios using these LPC pads and a ground on the d0 pad. It's more accurate to say "hackability is the reason linux runs on the xbox".

Re:Opening the door for game pirates?

[lilrowdy18]

It didnt run Linux. It ran a strip-downed version of Windows 2000.

That's the reason it was so easily hacked. :)

Re:Opening the door for game pirates?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're putting a box with computer parts into the hand of anyone who can afford it. It has to be able to accept outside software (e.g. games).

When you have those specifications, can you really secure it all too much?

Re:Opening the door for game pirates?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is this going to make it easier for people looking to copy games?

On the ps2, linux had no access to the dvd drive. No reason to believe they'd start now, though I suppose they could use the same game-cd-detector they use for making sure that you don't play copied games in reverse, to make sure linux can't read a game cd. Of course, if someone figured out how to get a ps3 game to boot from linux, they could then play copied ps3 games in linux since they wouldn't trip the game-cd-detector...

Slashdot requires you to wait 2 minutes between each successful posting of a comment to allow everyone a fair chance at posting a comment.

It's been 9 minutes since you last successfully posted a comment

Re:Opening the door for game pirates?

[Efinel]

When you open the xbox to mod it, you can read :
"Place Modchip here"

Anyway, that's what I thought when I modded my first one. Thanks M$ for having a "easy trouble recovering when returned to the factory" policy.

----------
no time to spend and find a good quote.

Re:Opening the door for game pirates?

[m50d]

On the serious side, this is probably what sony wants to avoid. A lot of people were devoted to hacking the current consoles to run linux on them - and incidentally opened it up for piracy along the way. If it runs linux from day 1 there will be less people working to crack it. Won't hurt the big piracy orgs, but could stop a few of the smaller ones.

Re:Opening the door for game pirates?

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot requires you to wait 2 minutes between each successful posting of a comment to allow everyone a fair chance at posting a comment.
It's been 9 minutes since you last successfully posted a comment

You think that's impressive? I had it displaying 57 minutes at one point yesterday, at which point I gave up on ever posting that comment.

Re:Opening the door for game pirates?

[SScorpio]

You could access the DVD drive under Linux on the PS2. The problem was that unless you had a modchip it could only read game disks, and the offical Linux Disks. This was supposedly due to how disk authenication works on the PS2. I'm not entirely on the subject since I had a modchip long before the Linux Kit came out and I could read any disk on it. You could also just use an external USB2 DVD drive to read the disk if you need.

Price

[peeon]

As long as it brings down the price of the console, I am all for it.

Re:Price

[fakedupe]

Sorry pal,

PS3 is gonna be the most expensive of the bunch.

Any more middle-aged geeks out there...

[pandrijeczko]

...fancy buying a PS3 and joining my "Emacs Exterminators" online editing clan?

We're gonna *TAKE DOWN* those vi fanboys!

Re:Any more middle-aged geeks out there...

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmmm... last time I checked "Pest Exterminators" eliminated pests. So, what exactly is your clan's objective?

Might I suggest the following?

:s/Emacs/Vi

:)

Re:Any more middle-aged geeks out there...

[Anonymous Coward]

Nano?

Re:Any more middle-aged geeks out there...

[myc_lykaon]

So you are suggesting that Emacs is going to be able to *fit* on the hard drive? That's one big motha. -- This religious war was brought to you with the letters V and E and the numbers 6, 6 & 6.

Re:Any more middle-aged geeks out there...

[Anonymous Coward]

a

You are on the way to destruction.
You have no chance to survive make your time.

CTRL[ :wq

Re:Any more middle-aged geeks out there...

[Anonymous Coward]

... in...formative?

Re:Any more middle-aged geeks out there...

[Mo6eB]

NEVER! Never will the proud order of Vim Operators from the Many Institutes for Technology (v.o.m.i.t.) will be defeated by some Emacs fanboys. We will fight until our last man still has at least two usable fingers! But I think that Sony will avoid the inevitable flamewar and just include Ed or nano ;)

Re:Any more middle-aged geeks out there...

[Jeff DeMaagd]

So you are going to both exterminate emacs users and take down the vi fanboys? So you must be a user of one of those newfangled "other" editors?

Re:Any more middle-aged geeks out there...

[pebs]

...fancy buying a PS3 and joining my "Emacs Exterminators" online editing clan?
We're gonna *TAKE DOWN* those vi fanboys!

I use *both* Emacs and vi you insensitive clod!

btw, wouldn't "Emacs Exterminators" mean that you are out to exterminate Emacs?

Re:Any more middle-aged geeks out there...

[Cecil]

So you must be a user of one of those newfangled "other" editors?

Listen, if anyone ever needed anything more powerful than Notepad, they could simply use Microsoft Word!

Re:Any more middle-aged geeks out there...

[ebvwfbw]

Clan? Do you guys wear kilts? Just curious.

Try to be kind to the vi fanboys, they are just beginners that haven't moved on to a real editor yet. Sadly there are some pro's that insist on still using vi. That is right, use that tricycle rather than a car.

Re:Any more middle-aged geeks out there...

[pandrijeczko]

I think that means there's a spooky Slashdot reader out there thinks I'm serious...

You don't suppose it's RMS himself, do you??

Re:Any more middle-aged geeks out there...

[CA_Jim]

You emacs and vi users are such wimps. Using a screen editor. If you were REAL hackers, you would use ed! Who needs to edit more than a single line at one time anyway?

Re:Any more middle-aged geeks out there...

[m50d]

Ha. It's more like "drive a campervan to work every day, after all you might want it some time"

Re:Any more middle-aged geeks out there...

[timothykaine]

vi til I die! *chants with a picket sign*

Re:Any more middle-aged geeks out there...

[decnartne]

bring it!

decnartne[vi]

Re:Any more middle-aged geeks out there...

[fstat(pipe)]

cat >
^d

Re:Any more middle-aged geeks out there...

[ebvwfbw]

Yea, yea... laugh it up. That's ok, I'll take the campervan over the tricycle anyday. With today's machines it is more like a supercharged SUV than a camper, unless you try to run it on Windows or something else just as sucky, SCO Unix or a SUN box. Ever try Emacs? It can save you a lot of time.

No I'm not a troll, I'm stating fact!

Re:Any more middle-aged geeks out there...

[timeOday]

Sadly there are some pro's that insist on still using vi. That is right, use that tricycle rather than a car.

vi is more like a unicycle; minimalist, yet surprisingly difficult to use even so :)

Re:Any more middle-aged geeks out there...

[chris_eineke]

vi stands for victory. :)

Re:Any more middle-aged geeks out there...

[m50d]

Yeah, I tried it. I don't need the features, really, I mean being able to play tetris is nice and all but I have separate programs for that, and generally a dedicated program is better at what it does than a jack of all trades. By now vim has most useful features from emacs, and it performs better at them. (I was particularly amused to see an emacs fan citing how emacs is better because you can get a module to allow opening files directly from ftp sites, when you can do exactly the same thing in vim without needing anything extra). And the : key is slightly handier than ESC (not much, but it adds up when you're using it a lot).

Re:Any more middle-aged geeks out there...

[ebvwfbw]

Realize that vim and VI are not the same things. VI still doesn't support split screens. vim still doesn't support a lot of things. The great thing with emacs is that if it doesn't do something you want, you can extend it with lisp. In fact to show the superiority of emacs to vi back in the 1980's, a lisp emulator was written to implement all the things that vi did thereby making it a superset of vi and therefore superior. People still stuck to vi, afraid to learn emacs. If they attempted it, it was a very pittiful attempt. Oh gee, that is too hard... control-s to save? Control-f to go forward? yea, hard. Yet :wq isn't hard, then provided you are even in the right mode?

Vi can do a lot of things. Most people that use vi use only a few commands. It isn't as lame as many emacs folks think and vim is certainly much more capable than its predecessor VI. However mode editing still sucks. VI was a great (line at a time, mainframe type) editor - 30 years ago. It is time to at least get into the 1980's (with character oriented editing).

Probably beating a dead horse here. If vi/vim is powerful enough for you then that is fine. I use vi from time to time myself. For many people vi is all they ever need, or they find other ways to do things vi can't - sed/ed/grep/awk and so on. I even know a guy that edits files under windows (wordpad) then ftp's them to the unix host so he doesn't have to use vi or emacs (what an idiot, he is probably my biggest risk on that system). If you find yourself doing stupid things like that, you may want to consider a real industrial grade editor like Emacs. Something you can compile/link/run/debug in. If you get an error you can even have it take you to that line in the other split screen window. In fact you could stay in it all day long if you want. I didn't know it would play tetris though... doubt I'll ever use it. For what I do most of the time, VI would cost me a significant amount of time. It simply can't do the things I need it to. I'm glad your happy with vim. Don't get into emacs though, I think you will stop using vim for the most part if you do.

You may also want to look into ide's. Some of them are getting to be cool now. Some of them can cost you a lot more in time than they are worth. Depends on the language and the ide.

Re:Any more middle-aged geeks out there...

[m50d]

If vim doesn't do something I want, I can extend it with C, and I already know that (I know I should learn lisp, but other things get in the way).

When I'm coding a project I use kdevelop. I probably don't use a tenth of its features though. It sets up autoconf for me, integrates the Qt and KDE documentation, includes Qt designer (embedded as a kpart or something, it goes in the same place as the text editor component) and fits in nicely with KDE, and by and large that's all I need.

Re:Any more middle-aged geeks out there...

[ebvwfbw]

If vim doesn't do something I want, I can extend it with C

I haven't laughed this good in a while. C is one of the most difficult languages to master. Emacs is so complete I haven't written any lisp code I bet in at least 15 years. But eh? Whatever you want to use. That is why I don't want to seem critical or say you're wrong. Both are fine editors for what they were intended for. I think you are limiting yourself by only using vi/vim though. What do I know, I only have 20+ years of experience doing this stuff. Some people love Fords, some people love Mercedes. Since the cost is the same, I prefer the Mercedes. But if I need to get someplace fast and a Ford is available, eh? Why not? As long as it does what I want.

Oh by the way, Emacs was first written by RMS at MIT in the AI lab. MIT wanted to license it and that is how the FSF was founded in the first place. RMS rewrote it and set it free for all of us to enjoy.

One more battle one by the good guys!

[Enoch Lockwood]

Hooray!

Isn't this incredible. A few years ago they wouldn't have touched Linux with a ten foot pole and now they're embracing Free Software.

This, people, is a bloodless revolution in action. Something to tell your grandchildern about. "What's that grandpa? How could software have been anything but free?"

Re:One more battle one by the good guys!

[WiKKeSH]

You can uby a linux kit for PS2@, also.
It doesn't work with the newer slim PS2, though.

Re:One more battle one by the good guys!

[jasonsock]

Where a few years is greater than the 4 or 5 years they've been already pushing Linux on the PS2

Re:One more battle one by the good guys!

[ozric99]

A few years ago they wouldn't have touched Linux with a ten foot pole and now they're embracing Free Software.

Yeah, it's not as if Sony had already released a linux kit for the PS2 or anything...

Don't get me wrong - linux on PS3 is great news (if it's hackable) but this is evolution, not revolution.

Re:One more battle one by the good guys!

[tjw]

Isn't this incredible. A few years ago they wouldn't have touched Linux with a ten foot pole and now they're embracing Free Software.

A few years ago (3 to 4) Sony was releasing an official distribution of Linux for the PlayStation2.

It's not that this isn't good news, it's just not incredible.

Re:One more battle one by the good guys!

[rpozz]

Call me a cynical bastard, but I think that it may partially be because that if you can get Linux for it, it makes piracy the only real use for modchips, which would make it easier to force people to stop selling them.

Re:One more battle one by the good guys!

[davew2040]

I'm afraid it'll actually be "grandpa, why are you such a nerd?"

Re:One more battle one by the good guys!

[ReverendLoki]

The difference being, that kit was made in limited supply, and was packaged with it's own HDD. Furthermore, using Linux on the HDD pretty much made it unfit for use with the few games that supported the HDD, or for use an a really huge memory card. And, if I recall correctly, the thing still could not load a game from disc under Linux, though I don't recall why.

The big news here is that this sounds like it will be standard on every HDD (or at least every detachable HDD, since the specs are still up in the air), will not limit it's use with PS3 games, and will be a lot more robust and be more usable than the PS2 kit.

If you ask me, this could be one of those touches that could truly make the PS3 greater than the X-box 360. Yes, it will spawn a bunch of F/OSS utilities and 3rd party software from which Sony won't make money, but it will also give the PS3 that extra functionality that can push it into more livingrooms. Face it, when Joe Blow non-tech decides to load up Media Theater software onto his PS3, even tough the existence of free alternatives may have effected his choice between PS3 and Xbox 360, chances are he'll go with the official, easy to load and use Sony branded software.

Re:One more battle one by the good guys!

[cowscows]

There will always be software that costs money. If nothing else, you'll have to pay for games. That makes this whole idea much more appealing to Sony. They can add a lot of functionality to their console without spending all that much, because there's all sorts of free software. But at the same time, revenue from games will continue, because it's not really feasible to produce large scale games without charging for them. Especially with the constantly rising costs of game development. How are you supposed to make money with them otherwise? Service contracts?

Microsoft could add all sorts of functionality to the xbox if they were so inclined because they've got lots of software to build off of. Sony would have a really hard time catching up, but free software can give them a good foundation to build off of.

Re:One more battle one by the good guys!

[That's Unpossible!]

This, people, is a bloodless revolution in action. Something to tell your grandchildern about. "What's that grandpa? How could software have been anything but free?"

Actual conversation:

"What's that grandpa? You never got laid and I'm just a figment of your imagination on a geek web site?"

Seriously though, implying that all software is going to be free in the future just because there are a couple free grains of sand on the beach of software is incredibly naive.

How many of those PS3 games are free?

My God Is The PS3 Looking Sweet

[Anonymous Coward]

Just wait till you guys start to hear more about the Linux Cell workstations in addition to the PS3 Linux stuff.

Cell is turning out to be the most amazing chip I'v ever coded for.

You want one NOW. Believe me...

Re:My God Is The PS3 Looking Sweet

[euricochan]

I want to hack one as well! Black market cell chips?

Re:My God Is The PS3 Looking Sweet

[Chibi Merrow]

Astroturf much? Do you even understand the Cell's design enough to realize what a PITA it's going to be to develop for?

Re:My God Is The PS3 Looking Sweet

[Anonymous Coward]

Skank, I'll give you one guess what platform I am developing on right now...

Give it a rest you stupid little cunt.

Re:My God Is The PS3 Looking Sweet

[Daniel Phillips]

Astroturf much? Do you even understand the Cell's design enough to realize what a PITA it's going to be to develop for?

It looks like fun to me.

(I presume that you astroturf much. How's the weather in Redmond?)

Re:My God Is The PS3 Looking Sweet

[jericho4.0]

"Skank" and "cunt" are a bit much for someone questioning an AC's claims. Give us some details or shut up.

Re:My God Is The PS3 Looking Sweet

[Chibi Merrow]

Oh of course since I question the knowledge of an idiot AC, and therefore have somehow impugned the Holy Cell, I'm obviously a Microsoft plant...

Did you even read the article you linked? Did you notice it offers practically no details? Other than enough to let you know that the chip is going to be an absolute PITA to develop for unless Sony delivers some incredible compilers for it... Which, based on past experience, they won't...

Re:My God Is The PS3 Looking Sweet

[Chibi Merrow]

Skank, I'll give you one guess what platform I am developing on right now...

Give it a rest you stupid little cunt.

Hmm I'd have to guess your Mom's Packard Bell, 'cause I sure the hell can't see anyone in their right mind hiring you to do any real development work.

Re:My God Is The PS3 Looking Sweet

[Chibi Merrow]

At least someone else sees the irony...

Re:My God Is The PS3 Looking Sweet

[Daniel Phillips]

"Did you even read the article you linked? Did you notice it offers practically no details?"

To who? It spells things out prefectly clearly to me. Somebody is going to have to write some low-level code, boo hoo. I take it you don't hack much.

Why?

[Mr_Silver]

Seriously, why? It's not like the addition of Linux on the hard drive is going to garner any more sales of the product.

Why not just let those people who really want to download Linux and run it on their PS3 (all, what, a couple of thousand maybe, if that?) to do that and spend your corporate time and effort into something else?

Hell, I'm all for adoption of other operating systems, but I really can't work out what advantages this is going to give anyone - save for about 10 minutes of downloading and transferring over to the PS3 for the small legion of hardcore individuals who want to give this a go.

Re:Why?

[prufrax]

It'll be like the Linux for PS2, and the original PlayStation Yaroze:
A cheap kit (compared to the full official dev kit!) to let small and homebrew games designers have a chance to learn how to code for the thing and to put together prototypes when proposing to publishers.

Re:Why?

[krgallagher]

" Seriously, why? It's not like the addition of Linux on the hard drive is going to garner any more sales of the product."

Just off the top of my head, it adds a full suite of internet applications. Adding Linux lets the console become an internet appliance. Besides, someone is going to port Linux to it as soon as it comes out. Why not let the manufacturer do it.

Re:Why?

[Delwin]

Simple - becasue they will get FOSS people to help them with the API's. Not only that but this means that there is already a Linux ported to Cell, so that's proof that it works for IBM to start selling Cell PC's. All in all it doesn't cost them much to put it on the HDD but they get good press, a few more sales, and most importantly free dev work to advance the software for Cell (compiler, graphics API's for the chipset that the PS3 uses etc). Remember - this thing won't run Direct X and programming for that many processors (and taking advantage of them) is a real problem. Sony needs all the help it can get.

Re:Why?

[0xABADC0DA]

There are plenty of people who could use a 'free' extra computer for browsing the web. It's like back when kids had to share the phone -- even one line per kid wasn't enough. So now instead of having to share whatever computers you have (maybe none) or buying a $300 wal-mart computer just to get the rugrats out of your hair they can just use the PS3 to do it; it's got an ethernet connection anyway to play on-line games.

It's not like setting up Linux for PPC to boot to a blank screen with a web browser requires much investment. And you get the geek vote, can sell a few more peripherals, and make the parents happy. What's not to like about it?

Re:Why?

[21chrisp]

I don't think the average user will know or care that it runs Linux. I'm sure Sony will set up something that's simple and straightforward to use. This would allow the PS3 to essentially act as a full scale computer. Is this not usefull? You can check your email, do word processing, etc. You could access PS3 game sites and download game expansions or get on forums. Better yet, anyone with a HDD could presumably develop games for the PS3. You're thinking of Linux as an OS tinkering toy, which is the wrong way to think of it in this instance. True, that's what it is for the PS2 and other homebrew console hacks. It's safe to assume that this will be a fully usable OS.

Re:Why?

[Hercynium]

Repeat after me and Steve Ballmer...

DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS!
DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS!
DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS!

(now jump around waving your arms like a crack addict on fire)

Seriously, and of course this is assuming that it ships with development tools of some sort, Imagine the benefits for a company allowing unchecked development on their new platform... especially a platform using Cell which will find applications in other areas... gotta go... work.

Re:Why?

[belarm314]

I would imagine they'd already ported linux to the console for their own purposes, so putting it out there for others will not really require a large ammount of corporate effort.

I'm pretty sure Sony uses linux for in-house stuff...and for all i know, the professional dev kits for the PS2 ran linux, as well.

Re:Why?

[Adrilla]

Why not toss in a free OS with your HDD. It adds another bullet on the box, and gives it more of a geek factor, which will make it more attractive to people like ourselves, and console hackers. The upside for Sony, it costs very little to nothing for them to add it on! It's one of those rare win-win situations.

Re:Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

i wouldnt call it a "win-win", more like just opening a door to the possibilty of new things with no real risk and minor costs.

but im skeptical on the whole situation.

Re:Why?

[Adrilla]

Just curious, but what do you see as the downside for either side: Sony or the Consumers

Re:Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course it will, as long as they make it usable. If someone has a choice between an X-Box and a PS3, but they can use the PS3 for internet word-processing or whatever else, some people at least would then prefer the PS3 as it will be more useful. MS may include a cut down version of Windows and IE and maybe some other apps, but they certainly wouldn't let Sony use it for free, so Sony need to do this to be competitivenot just attract the geeks, Geeks would be happy downloading it from the internet and installing it themselves as long as it is possible.

Re:Why?

[topper24hours]

As many have pointed out... It allows apps to run w/ out the red tape of using XP/OSX. Seriously... it is not hard to see that the ability to run apps IS an enormous selling point. You're right that Joe Average doen't care whether it's ran on Linux or not but he certainly wants new free apps and functionality guarranteed for the life the machine, FULLY endorsed by the manufacturer, not opressed like Linux on XBOX for example.

Re:Why?

[jojo tdfb]

Except for the whole cell being a horrible chip for non-vectorized generic internet applications to run on. Seriously, if your not running an application that does transformations on large floating point matrices, it's going to be like trying to run everyone on a 586. Plus, who says if it runs Linux you can code whatever you want on it? Sony could use Linux to do the basic os stuff and still have it as closed as they wanted.

Gotta go.

[jericho4.0]

I have to go to work, so I'll keep this short;

YES! OMG YES!!!! This is a dream come true. Thank you Sony. Thank you IBM. WTF is this in the Games section? This is big news for a sub set of geeks. This will be the largest installed base linux has, on interesting hardware.

Re:Gotta go.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yah I just got done telling someone I would never buy a console but now I actually want one.

Re:Gotta go.

[FLAGGR]

1) Hard drive is optional
2) They did this with the PS2
3) Don't take anything Sony says literally until it's plugged into your TV

Won't be enough?

[MBraynard]

'We're not going to equip [the PS3 with] a HDD by default, because no matter how much [capacity] we put in it, it won't be enough.'

Nonesense. Never came close to filling up the 8gig on my Xbox, but every game I've played has made use of the HD because they KNOW it will be there.

Of course, since the HD is optional with the PS3, devs will have to assume that it will not be there to reach a wider installed base. PS3 has just made developing for their system more difficult by releasing two products - ones with HDs and ones without.

Even just a small 4gig drive might have been helpful and inexpensive.

Re:Won't be enough?

[saleenS281]

I'm wondering the same thing. Does this mean we get those fun filled 4 minute screen loads like the previous generations? Man I
On a more serious note though... why not just make removable drives ala laptops? Just make them basically hot swap (or at least hot-swap bays). That way you can even sell pre-packaged sony hard drives that have the hot-swap end piece already installed so you can call it "official" and all of us geeks can just buy our own drives... everyone wins.

Re:Won't be enough?

[Johnny5000]

We're not going to equip [the PS3 with] a HDD by default, because no matter how much [capacity] we put in it, it won't be enough.

I think what he really meant to say was:

We're not going to equip [the PS3 with] a HDD by default, because no matter how much [money we make on the PS3] it won't be enough [when we can make a bit more by milking extra money out of customers for a HDD]

Re:Won't be enough?

[TheBlackSwordsman]

Of course, since the HD is optional with the PS3, devs will have to assume that it will not be there to reach a wider installed base. PS3 has just made developing for their system more difficult by releasing two products - ones with HDs and ones without.

I guess the Xbox 360 will also be difficult to develop for, as Microsoft is releasing two versions of the console - one with a HD, one without.

Re:Won't be enough?

[hollismb]

Wrong. You're basing that off really old rumors that turned out not to be true. Microsoft is shipping all XBOX 360s with a 20 Gig HD, included in the box. It's removable to be upgradable and portable so you can take your data/saves/music with you to use on other XBOX 360s though.

Re:Won't be enough?

[euricochan]

I think that besides making less money, the HDTV integration could mean using the PS3 as a video recorder. How much space do you need to save your favorite HDTV sitcoms?

Re:Won't be enough?

[Anonymous Coward]

But the XBox is not designed to be a media hub. Even though you have an 8Gb drive in it we're not talking about holding movies and music at hi-def quality and such like? Just a handful of MP3s, save games and the odd video if you have the extender.

The PS3 is designed to handle hi-def content and in huge quantities which (except on optical disks) are not really viable to store without compression. Even with compression you're talking Gb per film etc. so it doesn't make sense to burden people who won't use that capability with a huge cost for a drive capable of holding it - let them buy it later when the drives are cheaper and there is a good reason to (the majority) or let people who want to spend the cash whilst its still stupidly expensive (the home cinema type people).

And tell me, developers have never really been pushed to the degree you make out that they are without hard-disks? You've still got memory cards that are non-volatile. And the capabilities the Xbox shows off with the hard disk are game caching and "OMG play your MP3s in game" - nothing really amazing or cannot be done another way.

Re:Won't be enough?

[ozric99]

Bear in mind Sony don't seem to be marketing this as a games machine. They're going for the ever-elusive home entertainment hub market, so yes, any sized hard drive isn't going to be enough. ".. it only comes with a 4gb drive? How am I supposed to store all my home movies on it?"

It supposedly has slots for CF, SD, MS flash, so perhaps, like the PSP, it'll come with a flash card. Although, hopefully, unlike the PSP, it'll come with more than 32MB ;-)

Re:Won't be enough?

[Icyfire0573]

That statement is a bit unkind, however since its a corporation its probably quite true. I think what they really mean though is since it has linux they expect people to go out and buy large hard drives for it, on the order of 120 - 300 gigs, and that would add $150 - $300 to the cost of the console immediately and really who is going to pay the 300 for the console, and then another 300 for the hard drive all at once, that would defiantly scare away a lot of the average Joes looking to buy one of the newest consoles

Re:Won't be enough?

[ras_b]

well... if they truly mean it to be an "entertainment supercomputer", then a 4 or 8 gig won't be enough. also, it seems they envision network drives as the future of storage for them:

The next step is definitely network drives. With the Cell server, they can be accessed from anywhere, via network. Whether it's your own house [or] your friend's house, you can access the [network hard drive] anywhere. That's the kind of world we're imagining.

but since they are shipping an OS with it, they know it will need some sort of local drive:

But there are still some issues if the machine doesn't come with an HDD. So this time, we've added a 2.5-inch HDD bay so that users can equip HDDs, such as 80GB and 120GB, even though that's still not enough [capacity]. Although a network drive would allow for terabytes of storage, there's still the necessity to run an operating system offline.

Re:Won't be enough?

[Efinel]

You could fill your Xbox hard drive with music that you could copy from Audio CDs.

I think ~200Mo for the gamesaves is pretty enough, that leaves you with ~7.5 Go fro your audio files, which can hold about a hundred or more music albums.
---------
Please mod me up, like I modded up my xbox.

Re:Won't be enough?

[Deliveranc3]

They announced backwards compatibility... With software support from Nvidia...

(So next gen Xbox won't have backwards compatibility :(

New Xbox is looking pretty good, If ps3 had a HD standard it would be impressive but they didn't do it and now they are going down.

Re:Won't be enough?

[Anonymous Coward]

They'll be taking a loss on every sale of the PS3. I doubt they're saying that its *profit* margin isn't high enough.

Re:Won't be enough?

[Anonymous Coward]

There was talk about the PS3 being able to upscale standard def DVDs to high def using some computationally expensive algorithms (which the Cell can do in realtime) and storing the DVD content on the hard disk. Sony is supposed to be able to get away with it because they can en(de)crypt all the content on the HDD in realtime. If you can use your PS3 as a DVD jukebox and maybe even a PVR, then the more disk space the better.

Re:Won't be enough?

[doormat]

Nonesense. Never came close to filling up the 8gig on my Xbox, but every game I've played has made use of the HD because they KNOW it will be there.

And the PS3 is only going to play games? Where did you get such an idea.

I'm willing to bet $100 on the fact that it wont be long before the PS3 has a HiDef PVR accessory, and have the ability to downlaod other stuff (music, movie trailers, etc) to the internal HD. Its *too*good* of a marekting tool to not have it be some sort of entertainment portal.

Re:Won't be enough?

[alehmann]

What optical discs can store huge quantities of hi-def content without compression?

Re:Won't be enough?

[OrangeTide]

If they cared about diskspace they should have used a 3.5" rather than 2.5" drive. The 3.5" drives are faster, larger and cheaper. (I think 400G is around $250. 120G 2.5" is also around $250)

Re:Won't be enough?

[ozric99]

Very true. Although, this thing has firewire ports, doesn't it? Not trying to give fanboy excuses but there's always the option of having external firewire drives. It'd be nice to easily take your entertainment/home videos with you when you went home from university, visited friends and family etc. Firewire storage offers that option at an affordable price. Whether we'll be able to store media on firewire devices is another story though....

Re:Won't be enough?

[Trogre]

I disagree.

Disc-based games should be coded to take advantage of a HD if present, but must be able to run (albeit with somewhat degraded performance) if the hard disk is full. In this case the game should behave as if no hard disk is present.

console gamers are generally a lot less tolerant of software failing than their PC counterparts.

Devs should be coding for both scenarios anyway, so the fact that many PS3's won't have hard drives won't (shouldn't) mean any extra effort.

Re:Won't be enough?

[rsynnott]

I'd say their real problem with it is that a hard disk is a point of failure in a system with very few points of failure. They do not want to be providing much technical support for this thing.

Re:Won't be enough?

[fwitness]

And for the last time what *exactly* does the Xbox HDD *do*? Does it copy levels to it for shorter load times? Well no, since not only does everything *seem* to take forever, I would need some kind of entry in my dashboard so that buying new games doesn't eventually fill up the drive.

Does it allow me to rip MP3s to it? Sort of. I can play them in some games that let me.

Does it allow me to have patches? Yes, absolutely. Not sure we really need a HDD for this in this day and age of uber-ubundant fairly large flash-storag. So why not a 1GB flash drive with a fast read-time? Wouldn't that be enough?

Re:Won't be enough?

[MBraynard]

Actually, it does cache levels. And if you think it seems to take forever, you should get a PS2 and see what a real wait is.

It also allows you to store copious amounts of data from games - like your garage in Forza - or free downloads (maps, cars, mechs, etc.) - OR upgrades to Live.

I don't think your going to be BUYING any games for download other than small stuff. MS's relationship with retailers will still have you going to the store to buy the disks.

Re:Won't be enough?

[OrangeTide]

Sure. and I could plug a 3TB NAS into it via ethernet. Although most of us don't like having a computer that consists of multiple little boxes, let alone a game console.

Re:Won't be enough?

[fwitness]

I have a PS2, and a Gamecube also. The load times on the PS2 are somewhat long on some games (xbox Soul Caliber is at least 6 times faster), but streamable on others (GTA, Jak).

On the Cube I think I've waited maybe 10 seconds at most, ever, on any game.

It's not the HDD that's making your XBox faster. It's smart, intentional design of data, and when and how to access it. Are there exceptions? Sure, as always. Has the HDD made load times go away and changed the way we game forever? Not me.

Mixed Feelings

[Anonymous Coward]

I feel like I'm being pulled two ways. I use Debian on a few systems, but I love my XBox.

Should I support companies that support OSS, or should I buy a console based on its merits as a game console? X360 or PS3?

I'll have to wait and see.

Good strategy

[killtherat]

It's a good marketing play. It just shifted my preference toward PS3 and away from Xbox360. The ability to use Linux on a system with some rather exotic symmetrical processors, and play all previous PS titles. Right now, all Xbox 360 has going for it is the promise of Halo 3.

Re:Good strategy

[HyperChicken]

Why do you want to run Linux on a next-gen console? I have a handful of machines right now capable of running Linux. From a gaming console, I want one thing: GOOD GAMES!

If I wanted a PC, I know where to find it.

Re:Good strategy

[WiKKeSH]

It just shifted my preference toward PS3 and away from Xbox360.

Me too. Shocking too since I havent bought a new console in years... my last console was a $20 used Dreamcast.

Right now, all Xbox 360 has going for it is the promise of Halo 3.

All I would use a console to play is sports games, so it doesn't even have that going for me. I have no desire to play a FPS on a console.

Re:Good strategy

[marktoml]

>Right now, all Xbox 360 has going for it is the promise of Halo 3.

For the average gamer this is enough. It is all about the titles and the hardware is far, far less relevant.

Re:Good strategy

[leoxx]

Why not buy both? The competition is keeping the market quite exciting.

Re:Good strategy

[Anonymous Coward]

Right now, all Xbox 360 has going for it is the promise of Halo 3.

That's all it'll take to get me to buy the 360.

Re:Good strategy

[Gulthek]

Pffft. Halo is overrated. The real game that XBox has going for it is Ninja Gaiden.

Re:Good strategy

[Daniel Phillips]

Why not buy both?

Only if they both run Linux natively.

Re:Good strategy

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm glad to see you base your decisions in life completely on a *computer operating system* that you has no effect on your whatsoever. Why don't you get some other interests and not worry about this idiotic Linux movement. Life is passing you by chump.

Re:Good strategy

[ToastyMunch]

I agree totally. There are easier ways to get another Linux box. And if you wanted a media center PC...well, wouldn't you get an Xbox 360 in that case? Linux is an interesting tidbit, but it definitely doesn't seal the deal. After all, how long did it take before you could run Linux on the Xbox anyway? 6 months?

Re:Good strategy

[Quarters]

Just because it got you to spend your money on one of two non existent systems doesn't make it a good marketing strategy.

The people who value a PS3 with Linux on an HDD are a statistical anomoly so small that the number of significant digits required to express you as a percentage of potential PS3 buyers is beyond comprehension.

There's no marketing in this. You won't see Sony put giantic "Buy PS3 With That Linux Thing" bilboards up in Times Square. Outside of Ken's Reality Distortion Field comments and a few word of mouth web pages you're probably heard all you're going to about Linux on PS3.

Re:Good strategy

[a1ok]

Same here - but in my case, I'll probably wait until well after the systems have lost their premium pricing, I mostly play on my desktop anyway.

Re:Good strategy

[killtherat]

The people who value a PS3 with Linux on an HDD are a statistical anomaly so small that the number of significant digits required to express you as a percentage of potential PS3 buyers is beyond comprehension.

Yes, we are a statistical anomaly, but we still a group worth noting for two reasons.

1) We're more likely to spend more money on their products. We will buy the system, and the hard drive upgrade, and probably quite a number of games. We will spend more money then the casual consumer.

2) We represent an influential group of buyers, ie, if we like the product, we are more likely to recommend it, and people are more likely to listen to us. How many slashdot'ers have ever influenced somebody else's computer purchase?

For those two reasons, any dollar amount spent attracting us as customers has a much greater impact then trying to get to some other demographic.

Re:Good strategy

[OglinTatas]

If the XBox360 (XBO) is sold by MS at a loss like the original XBox (oXB) then my preference will be to buy the XBO with the intention of hacking it to run linux. You should do the same. 'Tis your DUTY.

As far as console games go, though, I will probably wait for the Nintendo. As you imply, having a large stable of _good_ games is important to selling a platform.

Re:Good strategy

[timeOday]

Linux itself probably isn't the point for Sony. Most people don't run a computer in order to run any OS, Linx or otherwise.

But when they say, "just plug in a keyboard for email and web browsing," that people will notice.

Re:Good strategy

[Quarters]

The hardware is sold as a subsidy. It generally takes 10-12 games purchased before the manufacturer breaks even. People buying PS3s to run Linux as general computng devices for web surfing, email, hacking, etc... are not profit centers for Sony. You can think that you're a group worth noting, but you're not. The only people you're likely to evangelize this too are other geeks, and chances are they will already know about it.

If anyone were to tell me I should have a PS3 w/ Linux because of, you know, Freedom man, openness, it's not Microsoft, etc.. I'd not be swayed in the least. I have a general purpose computer. I can even put Linux on it if I so chose. If want to build another one I can probably do it, sans keyboard, mouse, and HD for about the price of PS3. So why would I be interested in the PS3? I doubt you'd get much better response standingout in front of Best Buy, Circuit City, or Wal*Mart and promoting the PS3 w/ Linux to people going in to buy PS3s. In other words, "No. People are not more likely to listen to you."

At best you're a self-promoting group unto yourself. As I said above, the size of that group is infinitesimal. If Sony were to market to you all they'd be doing is incresing their cost to manufacturer each PS3 and therefore increasing the # of games you'd have to buy before they break even. It's not a winning situation for them.

Re:Good strategy

[Breakfast Pants]

If one console has it available widely to the general public and another does, whose console do you think the good apps are going to be developed for? If any of the video codecs etc. are optimized for cell, it isn't so easy to convert them over to the xbox. People who now use their modded xbox for media and emulation won't even bother with the xbox, all the development will be going on ps3. People who now use their modded xbox to play pirated games? Sony doesn't want those people.

Re:Good strategy

[Breakfast Pants]

Ok, lets say I'm talking it up to a friend. They say "I don't want the ps3 cause the nintendo revolution can play all of nintendo's back library." I say "so can the ps3, and you don't have to pay anything, unlike with nintendo. Also it can play divx movies you downloaded from the internet." This might be a little more persuasive than "its Free and open man." Granted Sony is in the movie business so the Divx thing is uncharacteristic for them until you look at the fact that the psp can play user created movies, though not in open codecs.

Re:Good strategy

[CronoCloud]

Exactly, it gets peoples (non-geeks) attention when I tell them I browse the web, read my e-mail do IM, etc on my PS2.

Re:Good strategy

[CronoCloud]

Nothing stopping sony from putting a section in the PS3 HDD manual about LInux, what it is, what it can do, etc and then putting a link to a "playstation3-linux.com" website to learn more. They could put a whole Linux for Beginners section in there. The PSP is a pretty complex little device and it's manual is BIG.

I'd lay odds that Linux on the PS3 would boot right into a nice window manager, perhaps KDE3 or XFCE.

Commercials for the HDD could easily be done and not mention Linux at all. HDD for PS3 lets you browse the web, chat, read e-mail, word process and run many free applications." Or they could include a text blurb and Tux image: Powered by Linux for PS3.

Who's doing the port?

[The Dodger]

IBM?

Re:Who's doing the port?

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought SCO would do it ?

Re:Who's doing the port?

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.linuxtag.org/typo3site/freecongress-det ails.html?talkid=156

Re:Who's doing the port?

[Anonymous Coward]

Good link, well found.

The PS3 could be a really really really big thing for Linux (and for Sony/IBM/Tosh), if things pan out right.

I wonder if Arnd is under NDA ...

And lindows is no longer linux...

[saleenS281]

"Of course, the PS3 can run Linux. If Linux can run, so can Lindows."

apparently Lindows is no longer a form of linux :/ Perhaps they need to give these guys a bit more training so that they don't sound like idiots in interviews.

Re:And lindows is no longer linux...

[ssj_195]

Linux is merely a kernel; Lindows is a full distro with X-server, graphics toolkits and trillions of apps. This is more than just being "a form of Linux" in much the same way that a car is more than "a form of tires" :) The point he was probably trying to get across is that by having the kernel running, it opens up a whole world of possibilities that can be built on top.

Re:And lindows is no longer linux...

[ArsonSmith]

Just remember, Reporters are Idiots. Period, all the time. Just because you see the mistakes in this article and not others other people that don't know much about tech think this is a factual well written article.

All articles are this bad, missleading and wrong. You just don't have all the facts and can only guess that the reporter knows what their talking about and has their facts right.

Re:And lindows is no longer linux...

[ArsonSmith]

Wasn't ment as a troll here. I was very serious and trying to be somewhat informative. but, Troll it is...

Re:And lindows is no longer linux...

[topper24hours]

Truthfully I think the point he was making was pretty much ANY os can run on the cell proc. Then he named a few os (Lindows, Windows, OSX). I don't see nitpicking the nuance or phrasing as diminishing the impessive nature of the statement considering he's talking about a game console and endorsing ANY os to be ported to it.

Re:And lindows is no longer linux...

[elgaard]

Yes, but why did he mention Lindows (Linspire) so prominently.

Maybe he just run Linspire on his desktop or maybe Sony made some kind of deal with Michael Robertson to put Lindows on the PS3.
After the X-box challange MR would seem a good choice for that job :-)

Re:And lindows is no longer linux...

[jericho4.0]

I read that at an implicit threat to Microsoft. Translation; "so can an OS that 90% of computer users wouldn't even notice it's not Windows, except it doesn't crash".

So...

[brontus3927]

You can actually make a Beowolf cluster out of PS3's then? Finally, the joke works!!!! Finally!!!!!!

Re:So...

[Anonymous Coward]

someone mod this guy up! hilarious

Re:So...

[jericho4.0]

It worked with the ps2.

obligitory....

[zxnos]

...yes, but does it run windows?

;P

Re:obligitory....

[FirstTimeCaller]

...yes, but does it run windows?

I realize that this comment is meant as a joke, but from TFA:

If Linux can run, so can Lindows. Other PC Operating Systems can run too, such as Windows and Tiger (Max OS X 10.4), if the publishers want [them] to do so.

Re:obligitory....

[Anonymous Coward]

on vmware yes!

Re:obligitory....

[Refrag]

The real question is whether it will run Max OS X or not!

Sadly, the new answer seems to be "no."

Re:obligitory....

[topper24hours]

I hope so!!! I'd LOVE to run a triple boot Tiger/Longhorn/Lindows PS3!!!

Windows or Mac on PS3!

[inkdesign]

Other PC Operating Systems can run too, such as Windows and Tiger (Max OS X 10.4), if the publishers want [them] to do so. That happening seems so far-fetched to me that its very mention undermines the believability of anything else said in the article. That said, it is good to hear Sony will continue to support linux on PlayStation.

Re:Windows or Mac on PS3!

[hazee]

Why is this so implausible? In the case of Windows on PS3, it's a win-win situation for Microsoft - they might get to sell a few more copies of Windows, and if it really takes off, then people might start buying PS3s rather than PCs - and presumably Sony will be making a loss on every PS3, so that's a win for MS too.

Re:Windows or Mac on PS3!

[Anonymous Coward]

why is it presumable that Sony will make a loss on every PS3?

Re:Windows or Mac on PS3!

[hazee]

Because otherwise the thing will be so expensive that no-one can afford to buy it.

If they adopt the same strategy that all console makers to date have, then they'll sell the hardware at a loss and make their money back on the games.

Re:Windows or Mac on PS3!

[IntergalacticWalrus]

That doesn't make any sense. The Cell is not an x86, nor is it a real PPC (it has a PPC as a main controller, but I really doubt it can run in pure PPC mode from bootup, _and_ have hardware similar enough to a Mac to boot OSX).

Re:Windows or Mac on PS3!

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is this so implausible?

Because the PS3 doesn't run on x86. It runs on a custom IBM processor (i.e. not PowerPC either). Microsoft would have to expend considerable time, effort, and money to port Windows to this platform. Look how long it took just to get a version of Windows for AMD64 - and that's not even all that different an architecture from x86!

In the case of Windows on PS3, it's a win-win situation for Microsoft - they might get to sell a few more copies of Windows... ...what, enough to cover the costs of porting and supporting? No fucking chance.

The more viable alternative would be to run it in an emulator. Which would be slow and make Windows look bad. I don't think it's likely they'll want that, either. Of course, some fans will do it - they'll port Bochs to run on Linux/PS3 and run Windows in that. And they'll probably port PearPC and run OS X in it too. But don't expect to see them running native. It doesn't make any commercial sense. At all.

Re:Windows or Mac on PS3!

[N1KO]

I understood the quote as saying that if anyone wants to port an OS to the PS3, they are free (and incouraged) to do so.

Re:Windows or Mac on PS3!

[jmorris42]

> That happening seems so far-fetched to me that its very mention
> undermines the believability of anything else said in the article.

That was said for subtle reasons I suspect.

1. The statement adds on the record credibility to their impending attempt to claim it as a computer instead of a toy to avoid the EU's import tariffs.

2. It might be an attempt to throw down the gauntlet, not at Microsoft who could but won't port, but at Apple as they exit the PPC space. Apple COULD port to PS3 with minimal effort and I suspect Sony would even help defray the cost of Apple were interested. Imagine being able to sell it as an addon kit containing a preloaded HDD, Apple & Sony logoed keyboard and mouse.

From what I have been able to read up, the core of a Cell is a pretty much binary compatible PPC that would accept OS X binaries. Granted it is without altivec and not a ball of fire when running code that hasn't been hand tuned and/or written around the custom DSP portions, but it would all run. So for $300-$400 they could sell a Mac addon kit, at which point none could dispute it's claim to be a computer. And on one swoop they conquer the 'convergence living room PC' space.

Only problem with that plan is Apple already has designs on that very space and doesn't see why they need Sony's help.

ps3 as pc?

[rawmule]

This announcement makes me wonder if Sony is positioning ps3 as a general purpose pc replacement. If the HDD includes not only the kernel but a windowing environment(KDE, gnome, etc...), I could see more than a few people using ps3 as thier primary web/email/office box. Assuming that it has keyboard/mouse support, the ps3 has more than enough power to handle normal pc usage.

Re:ps3 as pc?

[J Barnes]

And we finally arrive back at a more powerful version of the commodore 64.

Can a computer spin in its own grave?

Re:ps3 as pc?

[Daniel Phillips]

This announcement makes me wonder if Sony is positioning ps3 as a general purpose pc replacement

It is now clear that Sony is looking to make the mythical media center PC a reality. Opening the OS means Sony is likely to succeed where Microsoft has so far failed. I hope Sony pays a lot of attention to keeping the fan noise down.

Re:ps3 as pc?

[Anonymous Coward]

It certainally has keyboard and mouse support, because the thing comes with USB2 ports.

Re:ps3 as pc?

[DanThe1Man]

but the problem is that ps3s will almost always be hooked up to a television. I've seen WebTV and products alike and it looks likes crap on a normal television.

If HDTVs become more commmon, then maybe I guess.

Re:ps3 as pc?

[neonstz]

There is only one problem. RAM.

Re:ps3 as pc?

[Anonymous Coward]

it's all hype. the thing will run like ass because it lacks branch prediction and so average applications and probably even the linux kernel will run slower than a modern day computer.

they tried to position the ps2 as a super computer and made claims that people could render movies and it would be in workstations and shit too. wait until it really happens.

Re:ps3 as pc?

[nintendo_is_a_cereal]

Sony has been trying to have the PS be a general purpose entertainment PC replacement since the first PS. Kutaragi said as much in an interview with GS after E3 this year (although for the life of me I can't find the link right now). The first PS played games and CD audio. The second played games, CDs and DVDs. And now the third is hoping to go further (Whatever that may be). The problem for them is that most people are viewing the PS as primarily a gameconsole and while the other features are "neat" they aren't big selling points for anyone (yet).

Re:ps3 as pc?

[nintendo_is_a_cereal]

And of course right after I post that I find the link: http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/05/24/news_61264 23.html

Re:ps3 as pc?

[Anonymous Coward]

>>Can a computer spin in its own grave?

that's hilarious! mod parent up!

Re:ps3 as pc?

[timeOday]

I've seen WebTV and products alike and it looks likes crap on a normal television. If HDTVs become more commmon, then maybe I guess

More common where, here in the US? Surely Sony has some interest in Japan:

"Japan had the earliest working HDTV system, with design efforts going back to 1979. Japan began broadcasting analog HDTV signals in the early 1990s using an interlaced resolution of 1035 lines (1035i)."

"Japan had pioneered HDTV for decades with an analog implementation... Japan terrestrial broadcast of HD via ISDB-T started in December 2003. It is reported that two million HD receivers have been sold in Japan already."

I don't suppose you would even need an HD receiver to plug your PS3 into your 1035i television.

Re:ps3 as pc?

[BAM0027]

Seems like a reasonable approach for pursuing that elusive combination of computer-based appliance in a living room. Microsoft goes from a PC-centric approach, Sony goes in the opposite direction.

Other items possibly in the game plan:

- Linux reduces cost and doesn't inadvertently support their competitor.

- Regardless of a Hard Drive or not, they could probably deliver enough functionality on a CD or DVD to make a turnkey media center

- Who knows what the linux programming community can come up with when they think of development from a console-centric perspective

- All the PS3 needs to be functional is a base OS with network connectivity.

This is coming from a recent console buyer, so I'm just throwing out ideas.

Re:ps3 as pc?

[CronoCloud]

I'm going to say that in all likelyhood it will be a full featured Linux distro. The one for PS2 is, intended for developer use, but it has X, several windowing environments, etc.

Re:ps3 as pc?

[CronoCloud]

Not only that, but the machine could emulate the commodore 64 with Vice! As an aside I've run Vice on the PS2 Linux kit.

Re:ps3 as pc?

[DanThe1Man]

Wow, I didn't know that. Thanks.

GPL and ps3 games on my desktop (reverse hack)

[Anonymous Coward]

if it runs linux, and they release ps3.linux source then running all those games on my desktop should be possible.

instead of hacking the ps3 to running linux, I am going to hack my desktop to run ps3. nice.
noop

Re:GPL and ps3 games on my desktop (reverse hack)

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless you can somehow code the clusterfuck that will be the PS3's THREE cell processors (the one dedicated for sound has the main controller chip and 3 sub-cores, and the others, from what I've heard as rumors have up to 9 sub-cores... so unless you got a shiny 20-core AMD64 floating around that doesn't exist yet... fat chance.

Re:GPL and ps3 games on my desktop (reverse hack)

[Narishma]

Wrong, the PS3 will have one Cell processor which includes a PowerPC core and 8 vector units (but only 7 will be used in the PS3's Cell).

PS2 Linux

[vasqzr]

Was the Playstation 2 Linux even usable for much? I remember a few screenshots here and there, but I can't imagine it would be useful for much.

Re:PS2 Linux

[hazee]

PS2 Linux was a disaster. First, it was ludicrously expensive - considering you were paying for a free OS. Then there was the whole fiasco about suitable displays - you could only play games on a TV, but only use Linux on a monitor (and one with a "Sync on green" facility too). And finally, they crippled access to all the interesting bits of the system too for good measure.

If that was their idea of opening up the system, then I don't hold out much hope for Linux on PS3.

Re:PS2 Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh man I bought one of those damn things thinking that because my monitor (Viewsonic A90) was listed on the compatible monitors list it would work!

Once I finally received it and plugged everything in the damn thing diddn't work! I checked the list again and there was now TWO versions of the A90 listed. The first gen and second gen. The second gen did not work. Guess which one I had!!

Anyway, I still have it and it's never been installed or booted. Piece of crap! That was over two years ago. Maybe three years now.

Re:PS2 Linux

[oddtodd]

I got one and yes, it wasn't too usable. It ran a modified RH version of GNU/Linux and there were some areas they didn't give much (if any) info about, IIRC. There was an independent distro out, but I never tried it.
It wasn't too expensive, $99, I think, for which you got a keyboard, mouse, 40Gb HD and a NIC card.
That said, I never really spent alot of time with it, so YMMV.

Re:PS2 Linux

[bebing]

I disagree, 100 bucks for 40GB HDD, keyboard, mouse, network adaptor, custom linux distro, official pdfs on the internals of the ps2 including a manual for each chip seems like a good deal to me at that time(2+ years ago?). Concerning suitable displays, you could install out of the box on a ntsc, pal, or SOG monitor, through a controller cheat code, though this info was delayed, people were doing 'blind installs' on tvs. I understand that the latest homebrew development platform sps2 gets pretty close to the hardware. And I also use ps2linux to this day as a desktop.

Re:PS2 Linux

[KillShill]

cripple and sony go together like cheese and crackers.

the interesting bits are what make running linux on it worthwhile, rather than just something mildly amusing.

sony, a member of both the RIAA and MPAA, and their new fangled DRM engineered Cell processor...

sounds like an excellent combo.

not that MS and nintendo are much better.

as has been said before, fuck those goddamn cocksuckers. i want access to the hardware that i've purchased! (not like i would buy it now).

these assholes need to be taken to court and prevented from selling such illegal products.

imagine other industries engaging in the kind of behavior console companies seem to get away with... then maybe you'll understand the issue slightly better.

Re:PS2 Linux

[CronoCloud]

Define "much"

Is reading/posting to slashdot much?
Chatting on freenode with X-chat
Using Gaim or Abiword?
Playing Nethack?
Getting pictures off a SD card with a reader and editing them in the GIMP?
Listening to MP3's?

Re:PS2 Linux

[CronoCloud]

I use mine as a desktop too, but you already knew that. :-)

Well worth the money

And I was expecting some PS3 news like this from Sony. Us PS2 Linux "desktop users" served as the test bed. I'd lay odds that the higher ups at Sony knew pretty darn quick that there were non-devs using kits as PC's without much major trouble and having lots of fun doing it.

Pnoppix

[0xABADC0DA]

They should ship it with a knoppix-like distro on DVD. With that much space they could put basically everything in the known, open-source universe on it. Could even use the memory cards for some small amounts of data.

Re:Pnoppix

[WiKKeSH]

Everything, eh? Not even close... Hell, the newest debian release comes on 2 DVDs, doesn't it? And that probably only includes 'free' software, not software under 'non-free' oss licenses.

Re:Pnoppix

[Soul-Burn666]

Why stick to this tiny format when the PS3 is planned to support 45gb BluRay discs?

Re:Pnoppix

[WiKKeSH]

And with that comment, I didn't even consider that the PS3 is supposed to use bluray, not DVD. SIlly me...

Re:Spelling please?: Kutaragi

[Heian-794]

The fun-packed grammar and spelling nazi show can be followed by the Useless Japanese Trivia show:

Ken Kutaragi -- in Japanese, v'½--Ç-Ø OE', is one of those lucky fellows with a four-character surname. You can go for years among Japanese people and never meet such a person; it's like having a European-language surname that starts with "X". There are even web sites devoted to listing up all the 4+ character surnames.

And that was Useless Japanese Name Trivia for today!

Sony Taking Advantage of the Homebrew Crowd?

[ultimabaka]

As unbelievably beautiful as Sony's hardware can be, Sony has a long-standing history of creating atrocious proprietary software to support it. So this strikes me as a surprisingly smart move for them. Let them create a semi-decent Linux environment (it's not like they don't already exist in Pocket PCs, smartphones, etc.), and let dedicated programmers create excellent software for the PS3 for free.

It kills two birds with one stone very efficiently dontcha think?

Re:Sony Taking Advantage of the Homebrew Crowd?

[0kComputer]

Yeah, I'm sure all the applications written will be 100% safe, polished and complete. No chance of installing trojans, bots, malware etc... Great fucking idea until the most massive DDOS ever hits the country, all coming from comprimised linux/PS3 zombies.

The irony will be tragic.

Re:Spelling please?

[DarthVeda]

You know, everybody sticks it to the editors for bad grammar and spelling control, but you really have to consider all the articles that get rejected. Maybe this was the cream of the crop? Who knows, there could have been a better worded one, but the title was "Playstashun 3"

My Wish

[Adrilla]

I wish that you didn't have to buy a proprietary HDD from Sony, because you know that the markup on a "Sony Brand HDD" is going to be way over that of normal store bought computer HDD, even though the Sony HDD is just a regular hard drive that's not even made by Sony. I'm also wondering what capacity limit it will recognize. The PS2 will only recognize up to 127 Gigs (even though the PS2 drive is only 40G). If we're lucky they'll let you use a 3rd party drive via USB. The ideal would be to let us use 3rd party drives and let us download the version of linux they're offering.

PS: I also hope they allow you to do more with the HDD this time around. The only thing my PS2 drive was good for was 'FFXI' (which I barely played) and to watch live highlights from my ESPN NFL 2K5 games. And take a hint from the XBOX, let us rip our own music to the HDD so we can make our own in game playlists.

Re:My Wish

[EvilIdler]

The official Sony HD, which is very hard to get now, is weird in
many ways. The one game that actually uses it to any extent, that
online Final Fantasy thing, will ONLY work when it's the Sony HD.
Replace it with a larger drive of your own choosing, and you've
suddenly lost FF:XI.

I really hope the PS3 will not be locking the users in like that.
If so, there isn't a console to replace my PS2 when the new
generation is out :/

By the way, USB Extreme is a product to let you use USB drives on
Playstation 2 (including the slim one). Capacity allowed: 2TB :)

A Swap Magic disk and some custom software lets you play your MP3s
on the PS2, from what I've read. Time to experiment when I receive
mine..

Re:My Wish

[amrust]

The official Sony HD, which is very hard to get now, is weird in many ways. The one game that actually uses it to any extent, that online Final Fantasy thing, will ONLY work when it's the Sony HD. Replace it with a larger drive of your own choosing, and you've suddenly lost FF:XI.

How exactly do you know that the new External Drives will not suport FFXI?

Re:My Wish

[EvilIdler]

I've said nothing about new external drives. This is just how it
works currently on PS2 (old, thick version).

Re:My Wish

[amrust]

I've said nothing about new external drives.

"Replace it with a larger drive of your own choosing, and you've suddenly lost FF:XI."

I think we're basically on the same page. My only point was, if Sony comes out with a external HDD for PS3, there's no reason to assume FFXI won't run on it, just because it was originally issued with the "old" PS2's internal HDD. Not a pick-up external, but rather one designed specifically for PS3, by Sony, should work fine.

With what apps?

[bluGill]

With what linux apps. A bare OS is kind of useless. Particularly if they don't include init, some getty, X, or even a frame buffer console.

A PS3 on a HDTV, running KDE, kword, and konqueror would be sweet. (If you are GNOME fan just substitute their equivalents) Unfortunately, nearly all homes have a computer these days, so it isn't the advantage that it could have been in the past.

Then again Atari's XEGS didn't sell, despite having a good enough word processor (for the day).

Re:With what apps?

[Delwin]

All they have to do is supply a good compiler and you can build all of those from source. If you can compile them then so can IBM (who will most likely be supplying Cell Linux).

Re:With what apps?

[ArsonSmith]

"With what linux apps. A bare OS is kind of useless."

You don't know much about Linux do you? A bare OS version of Linux still has more apps then $1000 worth of windows and software addons.

Re:With what apps?

[Anonymous Coward]

***IN THEORY***
This could actually make "desktop linux" hit the mainstream.
Hopefully the linux distro is a custom build loaded with proprietary drivers (think accelerated Xorg install, kernel stripped down to just the hardware that's inside the PS3 or that you can connect to it, binary packages pre-compiled with all PS3 customizations/abilities). Sony could easily manage vendor supplied updates that have been fully tested.
Obviously they could have a large, dedicated community of testers.
You could play PC titles that have native linux binaries or maybe even use winex.
Could this be the future of desktop / gaming linux?

Re:With what apps?

[nusuth]

I would buy a PS3 if cell processor is half as good as advertised and I can write programs for it without paying for a SDK. It was unclear whether modding it and attaching a real HD, loaded with a OS & programming tools would be possible. Now I don't need to do that. If the PS3 and HD doesn't cost too much and if there won't be a cheaper cell based computer, they have a new customer.

Re:With what apps?

[Gulthek]

A bare OS version of Linux still has more apps then $1000 worth of windows and software addons.

No, that's a bare Linux distribution. The bare OS for Linux is the kernel, GNU tools, and the command line. Think Gentoo before compiling X or the window manager.

Re:With what apps?

[MegaFur]

Ok, color me clueless, but can Linux (or any Unix) even start without init? I mean, I know the kernel can load, but to even get to the point of having a command line, surely you've got to have some kind of init process? or maybe not? Mostly, I'm just curious. :-)

Re:With what apps?

[Gulthek]

GNU tools.

Re:But...

[lupinstel]

I don't know why you people keep typing NO CARRIER but I did hear that the PS3 was going too....#^$NO CARRIER#&^#$

Huh?

[CaymanIslandCarpedie]

Can anyone understand what this guy is saying? It seems like everything he says he says the opposite like 2 seconds later!

"We're not going to equip [the PS3 with] an HDD by default."

"So in order to declare that the PS3 is a computer, I think we'll have [the PS3's HDD] preinstalled with Linux as a bonus."

Basically he wants to have PS3 seen as a computer not just a game machine. OK, fine. He says to do this it will need as OS (Linux) to be installed on the HDD. OK, fine. But PS3 won't ship with a HDD. OK, .. but...I thought...WTF!

Re:Huh?

[slapout]

When the PS2 was released in Europe they included a copy of BASIC with it. This was so they could have it declared a computer and avoid paying a tariff.

Re:Huh?

[DThorne]

I don't find it bizarre at all. He simply means if they include a 20G drive internally, people will bitch it's too small. If it's 40G, 60G, the numbers will dwindle a bit, but not much. So instead, they have no default internal, lower the overall price a bit and let the user's needs dictate which size external drive they want. Why is that odd? I think it's a good move(although I'm not naive enough to think there's probably not some profit margin report circulating internally that is behind this).

DT

Re:Huh?

[un1xl0ser]

There is no way that we could fit a big enough gas talk in the car, so we won't even bother trying and will come up with an external solution.

If you can't use a PS3 without a HD, this would be silly, and just another hidden cost. It doesn't really defy logic in any way.

Re:Huh?

[m50d]

Rather "you'll buy the gas tank separately". And if gas tanks doubled in capacity every 6 months while staying the same size and price that's what some car manufacturers would do. Whatever size hard drive they ship will be tiny within a year or two. Rather than having to bring out a new PS3 box each year, they can keep selling the same PS3 boxes and just sell an external hard drive at capacities that change every six months. It makes sense.

Re:Huh?

[Jeffrey0]

This is true, I even messed with it once. Except that inputting BASIC (with a controller and on screen keyboard too) is well... no way I'm going to do that again.

What Heck of a Console!

[schestowitz]

Who wouldn't buy, only to play the game that no-one can resist compiling Linux Kernel on the playstation. That sure can keep one up until 5 AM.

Salesman: Here you see the latest XBox which render a zillions polygons per second.

Customer: Does it come with gcc?

Salesman: Is that one of the latest patches?

Customer: *sign* Not interested...

Re:What Heck of a Console!

[HyperChicken]

Salesman: Have you seen PS3 with Linux?
Customer: Does it have any good games?
Salesman: Well, no bu...
Cusomter: Not interested.
Salesman: *sigh* But...
Customer: I said not interested!
Salesman: But it has Li...
Customer: Let me speak with your manager.

And that was the day Schestowitz got fired from GameStop.

Re:What Heck of a Console!

[pboulang]

but you can run /usr/bin/games/fortune -o repeatedly...

Re:What Heck of a Console!

[CronoCloud]

On Linux for Playstation 2 it's /usr/games/fortune. :-)

linux fetish

[griasr]

me as a linux fetish put all my hopes and prayers into sonys PS3. since apple/microsoft/intel more and more try to get rid of us linuxers i think the future of linux is in the cell processor. also the ps3 used as standardized personalcomputer would take away a lot of work to figure out drivers and sh*t.

Re:linux fetish

[21chrisp]

Actually Intel is big supporter of Linux and one of the founders of OSDL. Apple has contributed somewhat to he OSS community as well, so I wouldn't say they're trying to get rid of "linuxers." They probably wouldn't exist anymore without relying on open source.

Re:linux fetish

[griasr]

to me it always seems they really love being inspired by open source geniuses. m$ for instance really bases a lot of their inventions on already established opensource models but brews their own proprietary soup out of it. apple in my eyes takes what it can get from OSS but only gives back a minimum and that often in a form that it is hard to use. (see KHTML)

Re:linux fetish

[21chrisp]

Yeah I agree, that's why I refer to Apple as "somewhat" giving. That meaning that they don't hate it (I don't see how they could since their entire OS is based on BSD) but don't really love it. They just take it for what it's worth (to them). Intel actually truly wants open source to succeed because (despite pubic opinion) they don't like being a part of "Wintel." As it is now, Intel's fate is tied to that of M$. That's what they want to get away from.

Despite the hype surrounding Apple, Linux is still the chief competitor to M$. Apple has always (and will always) targeted the niche "premium computer" market. Even the Mini is a premium price for it's performance level. Linux is ideal for the more lucrative low cost market. It also gives them a beating in developing nations, which is about the only way for M$ to expand on the desktop. So it's natural that M$ does all it can do to squash Linux.

I see these preconceptions a lot though. It's sad to see strong supporters of Linux (like Intel and Nvidia) get dogged by open source supporters when they do so much more than their competition. Just because the P4 is terd and still has so much market share doesn't mean Intel hates Linux.

Further ...

[Luscious868]

...does it run linux? Err, nevermind.

Further, does it support Ogg? Er, nevermind.

Re:OK, but...

[rovingeyes]

Unfortunately "does it run linux?" is a question that has lost its meaning. Other day one of my friends saw my xbox and asked me this very question. I said yes...and after a couple of seconds I asked him "why? does it matter?". His reply - "its just cool". He even doesn't have a freakin clue what to do with it? Sad, but Linux just like video games is fast losing its "nerdy" qualities.

entertainment supercomputer

[0kComputer]

C'mon, seriously guys. Is anyone going to give up their standard PC for a PS3? I doubt it. I can see this being usefull as maybe a jukebox or movie player, other media tasks, but beyond that im just not seeing its usefullness. Im not going to compose emails and other things from my fricking lazyboy. My gaming system is for games and entertainment, my PC is mostly for apps and work. They are in different rooms, i like it that way.

Re:entertainment supercomputer

[ArsonSmith]

I can see the possibility of me getting 3 maybe 4 PS3s because of this. I'd move all my standard server applications (mythtv, apache, mysql, etc..) to a seperate standard PC and use a PS3 for everything else.

Games under linux would no longer be needed. It's a console and already plays games. It should be more than fast enough to run mythfrontend and gnome desktops. I'd also replace the PC in my Arcade cabinet with one running Advancemame.

Yes, I would have to say that I really like the idea of this thing running linux by default after the HDD upgrade.

Optional Hard Drive?

[LordBodak]

Terrible move by Sony. Developers ignored the PS2 hard drive because the installed base was so low, and I'm sure PS3 will be the same way.

Re:Optional Hard Drive?

[imthesponge]

Maybe they could have installed a small flash drive that works in lieu of the optional drive, so that developers would be more inclined to use the feature.

Re:Optional Hard Drive?

[LordBodak]

That would work. I just don't think they can go another generation without some sort of onboard storage for developers to use. Some sort of flash that at least let you use it, but might not be big enough to have _everything_ on it, would still be usable-- users who were bothered by it could upgrade to the hard drive, but the functionality would exist for everyone.

Re:Optional Hard Drive?

[Longstaff]

The PS3 will be able to read SD, mem stick, CF and USB flash, IIRC. Hopefully, Sony just made the storage API generic this time so that all games can save/load from any storage device.

Re:Optional Hard Drive?

[LordBodak]

But the hard drive is used for a lot more than just saving and loading. Look at Final Fantasy XI.

Now, a different question is, among all those slots, I saw no mention of PS/PS2 memory cards. What good is backwards compatibility if we can't use old saved games?

Re:Optional Hard Drive?

[Anonymous Coward]

And Xbox developers made Great use of the Xbox hard drive. Games we've never seen before. No, wait, they were just like all the games on every other system. The hard drive doesn't make a difference at all.

Re:Optional Hard Drive?

[neverkevin]

A 1 gig SD cost about $60-$80 for consumers (I assume mem stick, CF and USB flash are about the same). For that same price Sony could add a 80 - 100 gig harddrive. I would much rather pay an extra $60 for the ps3 for an internal harddrive that developers will actually use then $60 for an SD card that developers might use.

Re:Optional Hard Drive?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've seen it make a difference in one game. Halo 2. I had an Xbox with a bad CD laser, and the hard drive caching kept the game running smoothly. I got the problem fixed before I could test too many other titles, there may be a few, but it does seem like they're at least in the minority.

Re:Optional Hard Drive?

[tepples]

among all those slots, I saw no mention of PS/PS2 memory cards.

USB PS2 memory card drive anyone? It worked before (third-party DexDrive).

Re:Optional Hard Drive?

[LordBodak]

I'd be pretty happy with that. I'd also be happy if PS1 and PS2 saves could be copied to the hard drive and used from there.

They want to keep it "open"

[lakcaj]

From the article:

It can connect a keyboard, and it has all the necessary interfaces. It can run media, and it can run on a network. It's got such an all-around purpose, and it's open. It will become completely open if we equip it with Linux, and programmers will be able to do anything with it.

Re:Why? - Commodore 64

[Is_Slack]

At one time the commodore 64 was a fairly popular product :-) For those of you too young to remember it was a computer you could plug into your TV and play games and do homework on :-) Could the PS3 move into this niche? From a strategy perspective this makes total sense for Sony. Microsoft is funding their attack on Sony's market with the monopoly rents they are earning from their other business (Windows/Office). If Sony can get kids used to using Linux and the other open source applications it can be another way of chipping away at Microsoft's source of funds. People tend to use what they are familar with which is why Bill is always willing to pay fines in the form of giving software to schools.

The Cell is poorly suited as a general purpose CPU

[Anonymous Coward]

The Cell is poorly suited as a general purpose CPU. The best use of a Cell would be eaither in a Tivo or on a graphics card. probabky not on a video game machine and certainly not on a computer.

Reason shining through

[tezza]

because no matter how much [capacity] we put in it, it won't be enough... over the lifetime of the system.

Sounds like a sensible approach, well explained. Why cannot more tech companies show the same restraint on features and hype??

Re:Reason shining through

[Blakey Rat]

That's a bullshit reason.

Including a HD *with* the PS3 doesn't preclude offering additional HD space for sale later on. Hell, they could include the detachable HD with the machine instead of installing it in the case if they wanted, so you could replace the whole shebang anytime you wanted.

It's not a sensible approach, it's a "how many extra paid peripherals can we make to suck more money out of customers..." approach.

Re:Reason shining through

[ArmpitMan]

Restraint? Did you miss the part where he claimed the PS3 was a supercomputer and his competitors' machines were toys?

Size

[varmittang]

I believe that they don't want to ship it with a hard drive because if they ship a 40 gig hard drive, people will complain that it should have 60 gigs. Others will say 80 gig is what they need, others 100 gigs, everyone will want to special order the size they want. Sony doesn't want to do that, or ship 40 gig PS3 models out to Eb game stores and have them not sell. If you want to add a HD, you can do it later, and I'm sure they will show you how its done and make it and easy upgrade so you can choose the size. This is what happened with the Xbox, everyone that wanted a larger drive had to crack it open, and put it in. External is much easier to deal with, and the user can choose.

Re:Size

[hollismb]

They don't want to ship it with a hard drive because they don't want to pay for them, plain and simple. They also want to make money of selling them, and overcharge everyone again by selling them required memory cards. Sure, it's great that the user can choose, but this also means that developers can choose whether or not to use the HD (since chances are it won't be there, considering how few people buy them), which makes it another mostly useless peripheral (unless you want Linux on a PS3). You won't be able to save to it, you won't be seeing custom sountracks in games, and you won't be getting content download for online games as a result, for the most part. Despite Sony trying to put a positive spin on it ("no matter how much space we give it, it'll never be enough!"), it's really just trying to cover up that fact that they're using the exact same HDD plan as before, which didn't work out at all. So, yup, you'll be listening to the same suck-rock while playing Gran Turismo 5.

Re:Size

[megarich]

As much as I think its more of a money making scheme to not include a harddrive, it does have its advantages.

For one the point you made about peole wanting different sized is a good one. Another one is let's say Sony has a brainfart and included the ps3 with an ibm "deathstar" type harddrive. It'll be a hella lot easier to recall/replace an external drive than having to recall/replace the whole system.

Becoming hyped and ruining gaming simultaneously.

[JonLatane]

I, for one, think this is a big mistake. At the risk of sounding like a troll, I'm going to tell the truth for once. Sony is appealing to all the little boys out there that are not secure with the image of video games as toys - it's the same situation as the whole "action figure/doll" thing.

In TFA, Kutaragi says "even though we're making something that has the capability to be recognized as a supercomputer and requires paperwork when exporting or importing, the government sees it as a 'toy.'" Obviously, this is a ridiculous statement. The new consoles are extremely powerful, but Kutaragi completely ignores the fact that the lack of memory in all three consoles reduces them to just above the status of today's computers - nowhere near a supercomputer.

The problem here is that Sony is pushing video game systems as "entertainment supercomputers." That's not what they should be for, and that's why the quality of Sony games really hasn't improved. They're not pushing innovation. The EyeToy is a neat idea, but every game for it is basically an oversized minigame. And that's been pretty much all their innovation since... well, since they decided to make the PS1.

However, Sony's business model is obviously the most successful. I have a feeling that, unfortunately, Nintendo may die out in this or the next generation of consoles. They may last longer in the handheld industry, but kids these days want hookers, blood, and gore in their games, rather than fun, replayability, and innovation. Microsoft will increase its market share, and the competition between Sony and MS will drive gaming to a low point, as the market becomes saturated with racers, shooters, and dull, homoegeneous platformers. Eventually consumers will realize what they've done and - I hope - there will be an upwelling of creativity in games.

well then

[WormholeFiend]

if the PS3 can run Linux, and if someone writes a Xbox 360 emulator, we'll be able to compare which console really is better...

I think. ^_^

Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Does this sentence strike anyone else as bizzarely phrased?

If we read the last part of the sentence, it says:
"no matter how much [capacity] we put in it, it won't be enough."

I take that to mean that the PS3 requires a lot of storage capacity. BUT, then the sentence says "We're not going to equip [the PS3 with] a HDD by default because [of this]."

That makes no sense whatsoever. If the PS3 requires large storage capacity, then that is even MORE reason to include the Hard Disk Drive.

In other words, this sentence (which is at the heart of the news clip), is logically FLAWED.

This is the equivalent of saying "No matter how big we make the gas tank on this new car that we are building, it won't be big enough. So our new car won't have any gas tank at all."

Does this make any sense?? NO!

I wish people would read what they write out loud, to make sure that it is logically consistent.

I'd be more enthusiastic if...

[goldenratiophi]

..."Xbox 360 to ship with Linux" was the title.

Re:I'd be more enthusiastic if...

[Anonymous Coward]

Why the hell would anyone want to run Linux on such wimpy hardware as the Dreamcats 360's???

Cell

or

360, a chip people are calling IBM's Revenge Of OS/2...

Re:I'd be more enthusiastic if...

[iamplupp]

Riiiight... Thats about as likely as Apple switching to Intel. Oh wait...

Heard about this 2 years ago

[ylikone]

I heard the rumour 2 years ago that PS3 was going to run on Linux from an insider... but didn't really believe it. Sounded too good to be true. And as I haven't heard anybody mention it anymore since then, I just figured it was somebody getting excited over "maybe". Never thought it would actually come true!

Is this as open as it looks?

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree that this could turn out to be a really cool feature; but I worry, this being Sony we are talking about. Since they control absolutely everything below the Linux kernel, they could quite easily lock things down quite hard. Will Linux be able to see the optical drive as it is, or only in some sort of crippled mode, with hardware DRM? For that matter, will code need to be signed in order to run? Open source just doesn't help when nobody but Sony has the keys needed to run new code.

Hopefully the won't do anything that evil; but it wouldn't surprise me if by "linux" they mean "cheap 'n stable environment for you to do basic tasks that we didn't have to buy from Microsoft" not "high powered geek tool with real hardware access".

Re:Why? - Commodore 64

[HyperChicken]

But now a-days, you can get a good PC -- an actual PC capable of running all your off-the-shelf software -- for sub-$500. With rumored PS3 prices and the ability to run Linux, not Windows (e.g. not grandma friendly and lacking big-name software), I doubt it.

Further, Commodore was a computer. The PS3 is mainly designed for gaming.

Re:Spelling please?

[Adrilla]

The operative word here is:

EDITORS,
n.
One who edits, especially as an occupation.

The point here is that they should at least attempt to correct the mistakes that someone submits. The simplest task should be to correct simple spelling errors. Such as; changing willcom to will come. I know they get a lot of submissions, but for they few that get selected, they should check that the spelling is correct. It isn't that hard to run a paragraph through spellchecker.

I'm sure I'll get modded down to Hades for this little rant. Maybe I should've posted as an AC, but I'll stick to my guns here.

Playstation 3 clones?

[jparp]

Since the cell processor will be available commercially off the shelf, perhaps we will see PS3 clones, the way we used to see PC clones?

Revolution Stab

[Apreche]

This is a stab at the revolution. In the current gen lots of people get xboxes full of roms. In the next round people will be getting PS3s full of roms. Kind of diminishes the revolution where you have to pay for the roms and only have a small amount of flash memory to put them in.

The rest of the revolution better be as amazing as they say, or Nintendo's current only "revolutionary" feature is shut out. Maybe Nintendo is right that if they reveal what is revolutionary so soon that the other companies are going to steal it. If they can just hold out to the point where MS and Sony can't reasonably make big modifications to their final system designs fast enough, then they can reveal all without fear of counter-attacks like this.

Never buying anything, either!

[insignificant1]

"'We're not going to equip [the PS3 with] a HDD by default, because no matter how much [capacity] we put in it, it won't be enough.'"

Any computer, stereo, car, house, mp3 player, mail-order bride I buy will never be good enough, so I'm just not going to buy anything.

And any food I eat for lunch today just won't be enough to fill me tomorrow. So I'm going to stop eating, too.

Linux as a gaming platform? I hope so!

[VStrider]

If PS3 adopts Linux, it's an opportunity for linux to get noticed by the games industry. They might realise that there is a market left unexploited.

They might also realise that if their games use OpenGL instead of DirectX they can run on any platform, whether it's windows or linux. So there is *no* extra cost in supporting linux.

If all games were published on linux as well as on windows, and linux was an equavalent gaming platform, gamers would sure go with linux, instead of windows, cause you don't have to spend something like £80 for an OS. Instead you can spend the extra money you saved on your favorite games. And that's even more sales for game publishers.

I wish they could see that. Could this be the beginning of linux as a gaming platform?

MythTV

[Erwos]

If this is true, and they write some reasonable accelerated X drivers, they've more or less sold me on the PS3. Why?

One reason: MythTV frontend. It's hard to justify spending $350 on a console. Spending $350-$400 on a console that replaces a $250-$300 mini-ITX box... that's much easier to justify. You gotta figure that MythTV will be ported pretty fast to it, if the video and audio drivers are reasonable. I also rather like the idea of using MythGame to emulate other systems - really makes for an all-in-one entertainment system.

X-BOX 360 was definitely a competitor for my cash and home media network, but I just can't bring myself to deal with MCE. For all its benefits (easy setup, well-supported), it has niggling annoyances (lack of friendly open formats, multiple tuner issues, proprietary extenders).

-Erwos

Re:MythTV

[falser]

MythTV was working on Xbox-Linux almost two years ago. Why wait one year and pay $350+ when you can do all that, plus have Xbox Media Center (which is a better interface than MythTV), right now for $200?

Re:MythTV

[MrNemesis]

Damn straight - even a horribly hampered PS3 would make a quite powerful frontend machine. And if one or two of those vector units could be coaxed into decoding MPEG2/HDTV as they showed in the tech demo, you would have one very cool little media box.

Is there anyone here who used the PS2 Linux kit? Was all the software for it (especially the compiler) Sony-authorised, or could you pretty much install anything you want on it?

At least with the PS3, the primary CPU is PPC-based, for which GCC already has pretty good support, and IBM and Sony have already pledged that Cell will be fairly open - heck, you could prolly have a boot-from-DVD MythTV distro. Now all we need to do is hope the media bods at Sony don't try and cripple it in such a way that it can't run "untrusted" software without a mod chip or other such DMCA-baiting measures.

(P.S. Hard drive aside, does anyone know if it's possible to shoehorn a PXE boot routine into kit like this? As easy as a hard drive would be, availability and price will no doubt be unfriendly)

Re:MythTV

[oddtodd]

I used PS2 Linux a little bit. I got a few OpenGL demos running, but that was about it.
IIRC, it ran a modified version of RedHat, I can't recall which one but it wasn't too recent. There were some significant areas that were poorly/not documented as far as the Emotion Engine and I never tried installing anything other than the kit.

Re:MythTV

[Xugumad]

Had the PS2 kit - mostly it was out of date and slow. I did try patching stuff up to more recent versions, but it was mostly rather slow and dull, and I got bored before too long.

It was idealy for learning how to work with the hardware, cheaply, but that was mostly it.

For the PS3, if we can actually get enough enthusiasm together to keep the Linux up to date, it should work just fine.

As to pricing - I'd have thought they'd sell it at not much more than the price of a 2.5" drive, mayve even less, to stay competitive with the Xbox 360, but could be wrong...

Re:MythTV

[Tombstone-f]

The main reason is for Hi-Def, the XBox isn't fast enough to play it.

Re:MythTV

[CronoCloud]

I've got a kit too, and you can compile anything you want, no guarantees of it working, of course. Quite a bit will compile with minimal effort

OpenGL based apps were always slow, ("limited hardware acceleration" in Mesa) noeGNUd was unplayable

Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

These Sony guys are smoking really good stuff, and they did the same for the PS2, they're telling everyone it will be a revolution, the fastest, strongest of all systems you'll ever see...

In the end it will still be a normal gaming machine on par with it's competitors.

Now that's what I call misrepresentation (remember the PS2 HD, the PS2 in general)...

Oh my, what's the next thing they're going to say...

Re:Will it come with a spellchecker?

[larry bagina]

no but it comes with a story duplicator, so if you miss it the first time, you can read about it 2 days later.

Myth TV

[FirstTimeCaller]

Now if we could get an easy install of Myth TV for the PS3, we'd really have something!

Of course, the question is what to do for video capture/mpeg encoding? I assume that the PS/3 will have a USB2 or fireware port, so perhaps an external piece of hardware might do the trick. If nothing else, I guess it could be used as a frontend video client.

If u cant see that

[bohemian_observer]

Finally both Sony and Nintendo threaten us with Linux equiped hardware. Dont you forget that XBOX/Windows and Microsoft itself is one of the most respected firm and employer in the US. China, Thays and Japs are horny to roll over us with Linux now. Hope MS will sue shit out of them and of their **** Linux machine. XBox is my only choice.

Re:If u cant see that

[Anonymous Coward]

Dont you forget that XBOX/Windows and Microsoft itself is one of the most respected firm and employer in the US.

I know that shooting down braindead m$ lusers is too easy to be fun, but even someone with the IQ of a M$ fanboy should realise that Xbox and Windows are products of M$ not firms or employers.

Now, take your clothes off and get a hard-on: your mother's calling you.

Re:Becoming hyped and ruining gaming simultaneousl

[0kComputer]

Nintendo isn't going anywhere, they have to much money in the bank. The way things are going, they may be reduced to a pure game manufacturer as opposed to entire platform, but IMO, that wouldn't be a bad thing.

I guess the reason is

[Karoshi]

I guess the reason for linux is not that they "don't want to ship windows", the reason is that they want to annoy microsoft: most people will buy sony's hardware for linux, not the xbox.

But let's wait and see what "linux" on "playstation" will look like when it's shipped.

Re:Becoming hyped and ruining gaming simultaneousl

[Anonymous Coward]

If Nintendo dies out, it'll becuase they fucked up. I'm tired of all the nintendo-heads out there.
There's nothing magical about them.. Ya, you might think they make more innovative games, but there are good games for the playstation and the xbox as well.
Even if there are a million bad games for the PS2 and only 100 really good ones, that's still better than having 10 good games and 100 bad games, or whatever the gamecube's games library looks like...

Kids don't only want hookers, blood, and gore in the games. Everyone wants replayability and fun goddamnit, and innovation is overrated.
How would the competition drive gaming to a low point? Is the games industry unique in the way that competition works?

And yes, you do sound like a troll.

Out of the box, means perfect drivers (maybe)?

[Anonymous Coward]

This should be more exiting to the Linux gaming crowd than the next ATI/Nvidia driver that is hopefully on par with the windows one.
Why?
Because when Sony ships Linux with the PS3 out of the box it should have nearly perfect drivers for the hardware too. And isn't the main reason why developers praise consoles that there are no hardware conflicts etc to consider?
So I predict any game ever made that is worth playing wich is running on Linux will soon be ported to the PS3, including all those emulators.
So with a nice game-dev-kit, provided by Sony or made by the comunity, the PS3 could become the ultimate gaming platform, since it can propably run virtually all previusly made games for all platforms + the ones made for it + new ones made by the comunity.
This could be good for Linux gaming in general too since once a game runs on the PS3 in Linux it should be fairly simple to port to Linux on other hardware.
All in all a nice move by Sony.

Hum... If true slams Apple if anyone.

[SWTP_OS9]

After the big Apple news of going to Intel and the talk they tried Cell and other new Power PC chips and desided that the Intel { vauge } road map was the way to go this week. This info about PS3 and Linux is very intersting.

The reply to not using Cell some what stating its not worth it or somthing to that effect of using Cell in a user computer may just come back to haunt them. Duals are nice but 8 with supervisior chips is more intersting!

If Linux really runs well and fast on it and is truly usable. Think of what would be possible? Apple plusses are solid stable platform with the same in the OS.

If true then they not only have a intersting game system but a possible 2nd computer? Add in content from Columbia/Tri-star as in movies on demand. That makes the higher price more reasonable.

One last item... Remeber the CEO of Sony was on stage in January with Job's? Could it be Sony was talking to Apple to use OS X but something went wrong? Like the comment of "No" we want Intel?

Guess will need to save up some pennies and dimes just in case! Any one know the schedule release date of PS3?

Re:Hum... If true slams Apple if anyone.

[Anonymous Coward]

I think this could be the reason why Apple left IBM.

Sony is a far more direct competitor to Jobs than Wintel ever was - competing with him in both of his company's areas of expertise - consumer branding and movies.

The IBM/Sony partnership enabled this competitor to compete with apple directly on it's own turf.

Re:Becoming hyped and ruining gaming simultaneousl

[Dance_Dance_Karnov]

You do know that out of the 3, Nintendo is the only Console manufacturer who makes money on video games? Hand over fist they make money, they are going nowhere.

Memory Cards

[valedaemon]

'We're not going to equip [the PS3 with] a HDD by default, because no matter how much [capacity] we put in it, it won't be enough.

Hmm, by that logic, Sony should have never sold memory cards . But then again, they are an extremely lucrative peripheral, so it makes sense why they aren't going to include the HDD by default.

This guy doesn't appear to know shit...

[jondt]

KK: Linux is legacy, but it will be a start.
Legacy? Riiight. No Linux fanboy here, but I know bullshit when I see it.

In the case of the Cell, operation systems are applications.
Wah?

The kernel will be running on the Cell, and multiple OSes will be running on top of that as applications.
Bah?

Of course, the PS3 can run Linux. If Linux can run, so can Lindows.
Comparing kernels to distros here. Despite the fact that the latter is built upon the former.

Other PC Operating Systems can run too, such as Windows and Tiger (Max OS X 10.4), if the publishers want [them] to do so.
But the odds of Microsoft or Apple doing so are zero. So why say it?

I'm sure the guys clever. But he's not technical in the slightest.

Re:This guy doesn't appear to know shit...

[m50d]

On the last thing, it shows that they're the good guys. "We're opening our specs right up. If microsoft want to release windows for the PS3, we're letting them". Doesn't that make him sound like a nice guy?

Re:This guy doesn't appear to know shit...

[Blakey Rat]

Please. EVERY SINGLE THING Sony announces before the product is released is bullshit. Their marketing department probably has never even SEEN the actual console... or is this one going to be able to render Toy Story in real-time? Ooo, will games have powerful emotions in them because of the "emotion engine?" (After all, a hardware chip is the correct way of producing emotions, not good writing/artwork/direction!)

The saddest part is that people are falling for the same bullshit Sony announced before the PS1 and before the PS2. Sony marketing = BULLSHIT. Period.

Re:This guy doesn't appear to know shit...

[topper24hours]

I agree... it actually sound like a challenge "We dare you to have the nuts to port your OS since we've offered it no strings attached"

Re:This guy doesn't appear to know shit...

[Anonymous Coward]

What a stupid little faggot you are.

"or is this one going to be able to render Toy Story in real-time"

So you are just another retard repeat the same old lie about what some dimwitted reporter said about the PS2 years ago?

What a fucking loser.

Re:This guy doesn't appear to know shit...

[Sneftel]

KK: Linux is legacy, but it will be a start.
Legacy? Riiight. No Linux fanboy here, but I know bullshit when I see it.
In the context of a multicore processor such as the cell processor, Linux IS legacy, because it is not a microkernel architecture. He's saying that it'll run, but the kernel won't take full advantage of the hardware.

In the case of the Cell, operation systems are applications.
Wah?
You appear not to understand the concept of native OS virtualization. I suggest you read up on it; it's an interesting move, and one that's been years in coming.

The kernel will be running on the Cell, and multiple OSes will be running on top of that as applications.
Bah?
Again... if you're not familiar with the technology, learn about it.

I'm sure the guys clever. But he's not technical in the slightest.
Look to thine own self.

Re:Becoming hyped and ruining gaming simultaneousl

[cowscows]

I think Nintendo will manage to stick around, because no matter what the kids want these days or will in the future, there's lots of non-kids with disposable income.

I'm over my blood and gore phase, but I still like games. I'm guessing I'll be playing games for the rest of my life, and I'm interested in new and fun things. If Nintendo keeps producing good stuff, I'll keep buying it. And I think a good number of people will too.

Willcom?

[SenFo]

What on Earth does "willcom" mean?

http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+willcom&s tart=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a& rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official

Re:Willcom?

[SenFo]

Before somebody votes this off-topic, "In fact, it will come bundled with it" had a typo. It originally said, "In fact, it willcom bundled with it".

Re:Spelling please?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure I'll get modded down to Hades for this little rant.

The OP already has been, though I modded him up 1 "informative". I think spelling a name right is informative" and not "off topic" as the mod stormtroopers think. (As I modded I can't post normally, so I'm AC here.)

I've used Slashcode on another site, and when you publish a story it is automatically spellcheckked, and this one should have come up with "ispell doesn't recognize: willcom". Willfully ignoring this is a sign of how little the editors care about their work.

It doesnt matter...

[distantbody]

...wether the PS3 comes with a HDD, but rather, how many developers decide to utilise it. Why the FUCK would sony condemn us gamers to agonising load-screens and less complex environments by making the HDD "optional"!?

Re:OK, but...

[andy753421]

Sad, but Linux just like video games is fast losing its "nerdy" qualities.

That's okay with me. Hardware companies don't provide support for nerdy things. Professors don't send out documents in nerdy text formats. Software companies don't pay nerdy developers.

Linux on PS3's all over the place might just be what is needed to get non-nerdy people to start paying attention. If more people are paying attention I think that will certainly help the FOSS movement more than it will harm it.

You don't need Beowolf...

[Anonymous Coward]

That's the beauty of the Cell processor :)

Re:Spelling please?

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't you know, willcom is the name of a japanese company. Maybe they have something to do with the PS3.

Cost

[phorm]

Which might mean that PS3 is going to cost more, as they will focus more on console sales than game sales.

That being said though, one of the more annoying issues with making games on linux is that a large portion of the video cards out there run craptacular in the 3d arena. Will Sony create/ship drivers to make linux run PS3-friendly? Given that the hardware would be the same for everyone, linux-PS3 games might just take off... and of course they could be ported to PC as well (or vise-versa) in the future.

Re:Cost

[NewbieProgrammerMan]

Will Sony create/ship drivers to make linux run PS3-friendly?

I think they'd be foolish not to - if you're going to offer a gaming platform and say, "Oh, yeah, you can get it with Linux if you want," it would be a bad business move if you failed to provide Linux-friendly drivers. A few of us might want to just crunch numbers on a stack of PS3s sitting in a corner, but I would expect most Linuxheads are going to want the video support to be up to snuff when they play TuxRacer.

Not that something being a bad business move stops some companies from making them, but I'm just saying... :)

Re:Cost

[apoc06]

the way i see it. sony only needs to support the rsx graphics chipset. thats the benefit of it being a console. no need to supply drivers for anything else. why should/would they?

the dev kits run linux anyways, so the idea of providing it for home use is simple. they already have a ps3 friendly distro. its already done; epic has had their dev kit for months now.

sony doesnt want people using their ps3s to create games for pc. lol.

Just use Knoppix ?

[moz25]

I suppose it's possible to run Linux on it by simply using Knoppix, or rather: the variant that will run on a PS3.

Reason I'm Buying PS3

[Alaerus]

The reason, folks, I will be buying a PS3 is simple -- for GAMES. I don't need another computer (I have 7). I'm really not interested in whether I can take over the world with this thing. All I am concerned about is video games. Everything else to me is extra. I have computers to do all the cool things like run Linux, etc. If I want to mess with things of that nature I'll go to one of my computers. But when I go to my shiny new Playstation 3, I want to be playing insane c00l g@m3z and that is it.

video editing

[harlemjoe]

Nonlinear editing systems are incredible, but if it was done on the Cell, it would be even more incredible... The difference will be obvious. I think other PC applications, like photo-retouching software, will also be able to be done on the PS3

I think the PS3 would be uniquely positioned as a cheap non-linear editing box -- even if it costs around $450, a PC with comparable graphic handling capabilities will easily cost double that.

This could be huge for amateur video -- and even for smaller TV and film production companies.

Re:video editing

[blackmonday]

I suppose with a keyboard input and some custom software you could do some editing, but honestly a used blue and white G3 powermac (~$200) can do video editing just fine.

I view this information in typical Playstation fashion - Grand announcements are made, and slowly they retract features until the new consoles are based back in reality. People were talking about editing video on the Playstation 2 - now were back in the same boat once again.

MythTV box

[treyb]

If I can get Linux on a PS3, they'll sell me three units instead of just one. The PS3 should make an excelent MythTV frontend for HDTV. MythTV for PS3 will sell a lot of units in the MythTV crowd.

Re:MythTV box

[CosmicDreams]

How well would MythTV work though. Doesn't the recorder of HDTV require an INPUT of a HD signal. Looking at the specs of the PS3, all I see are outputs.

Re:MythTV box

[Anonymous Coward]

It could work as a frontend to MythTV.

I know if I could get Linux installed on it and MythTV would work, I would purchase one.

I'm looking for a good front end in the kitchen.

The reason : the only thing that matter, money

[Anonymous Coward]

I read a while back that custom taxes are different on computer and gaming console. Having linux running on that piece of hardware make it qualify for use as a computer, so lower import taxes...

Fundamental assumption wrong

[SuperKendall]

Seriously, why? It's not like the addition of Linux on the hard drive is going to garner any more sales of the product.

What makes you think that is true?

To start with, some fringe people WILL buy the device if it supports Linux, that may otherwise have bought soemthing else.

Now consider the whole XBox hacking scene with stuff like media player and the like. If in the next round the PS3 supports Linux with no hacks, then where are the people working on those projects going to go? Probably the PS3.

Then fast forward a year later when you have multiple choices for media centers and other interesting programs running on the PS3 and no other game console. Don't you think at least a few people would be interested in this?

In my own case, I am probably going to buy a PS3 regardless. However currently I have zero interest in a PSP, which would change if I could program for it and turn it into a universal remote.

Similar strategy used for PSP

[leather_helmet]

allowing it to be relatively 'open' in the sense that people will be able to create content/emulators for it - a buddy of mine that works at thier Hillsdale HQ told me that this is SONY's strategy, knowing that MS will never really 'open' thier consoles to customized apps makes their hardware more desireable ('open' is used loosely here)

Re:OK, but...

[at_slashdot]

Sad, but Linux just like video games is fast losing its "nerdy" qualities. Next thing is getting a girlfriend and than it's all lost... Linux will end up bald and with a beer belly.

The new Mac

[Stonent1]

MOL + Cell + Tiger

How about that?

What to do.....

[Conor Turton]

Hmm. Was thinking about building a new PC in 6-12 months time as my trusty XP3200/GF6600GT will be getting a bit past it by then. I only use it apart from CS:Source for web/mail/usenet/WP which any Linux distro is more than up to.

Hmmm....kinda makes you want to hang on and see what happens. Could be the year I bin my PC because even if they sell the PS3 for £400 I can't build a PC with the equivalent power for that and whatever PC I build will be have been obsolete for at least a couple of years by the time the PS3 comes to end of life.

Thats nice but....

[Anonymous Coward]

Will it run windows?

(its bizzaro-world)

Re:Spelling please?: Kutaragi

[kahei]

I call your bluff -- ' v'½--Ç-Ø OE',' isn't a name at all! In other news, Slashdot (perhaps unsurprisingly) isn't very multilingual.

However, I did once know a Japanese lady whose family name was 'kyuuraku' as in 'long-lasting pleasure'.

I think it's one of those names awarded to artists and craftsmen way back when... they're getting pretty rare now.

There's a list of 4-character names here:
http://www.ipc.shizuoka.ac.jp/~jjksiro/4moji.html ...but it doesn't have Katuragi, so there must be more.

I want a Cell Processor on a PCI-X card...

[alta]

I think it would be cool if we could add off-load cards to our computer that programs could use when available. Much like servers can have SSL cards that they offload all cryptography too. Imagine a Cell processor on a PCI-X card, all graphics programs could use it (photoshop, 3dsmax, Edit) and even the video card could give it some jobs to do if it would be faster. While we're at it, lets take all the system memory and slap it in upgradeable cards. Why should the machine be limited to 2 Dimm slots. They already have cards with memory to run as harddrives (flash drives)

Yeah, I know... pipedream. I just think we should be able to add speed to our computer as easily as we can add capacity (memory, drivespace)

Re:I want a Cell Processor on a PCI-X card...

[Anonymous Coward]

No pipedream at all.

Apple had everything in place to tranparently support a computing powerhouse like Cell with all their Core APIs.

If Apple hadn't been dumped by IBM, we would have seen media workstations of obscene power very soon.

There are media engineers weeping themselves to death in Cupertino over getting dumped into x86 land...

Re:I want a Cell Processor on a PCI-X card...

[JackAxe]

Macrumors states that Apple looked into the Cell, but it's not intended for PCs.

The Cell is better suited for a PCI-X support solution, kind of like the ARTVPS render cards, not as a main processor. Although this chip is a beast, it's weaker in some areas then the 970FX Apple is currently using. As an example, its watered down vector unit, doesn't hold a candle to Altivec, which is used by the G5.

Here's a tid-bit from Asrtchnica:
http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/cpu/cell-2. ars

"Finally, before signing off, I should clarify my earlier remarks to the effect that I don't think that Apple will use this CPU. I originally based this assessment on the fact that I knew that the SPUs would not use VMX/Altivec. However, the PPC core does have a VMX unit. Nonetheless, I expect this VMX to be very simple, and roughly comparable to the Altivec unit o the first G4. Everything on this processor is stripped down to the bare minimum, so don't expect a ton of VMX performance out of it, and definitely not anything comparable to the G5. Furthermore, any Altivec code written for the new G4 or G5 would have to be completely reoptimized due to inorder nature of the PPC core's issue.

So the short answer is, Apple's use of this chip is within the realm of concievability, but it's extremely unlikely in the short- and medium-term. Apple is just too heavily invested in Altivec, and this processor is going to be a relative weakling in that department. Sure, it'll pack a major SIMD punch, but that will not be a double-precision Alitvec-type punch"

Re:I want a Cell Processor on a PCI-X card...

[Anonymous Coward]

Ars???

Please! Reading Ars for chip info is like watching Dr. Phil for your emotional problems.

What you wrote is nothing more than a mismash of misunderstanding the Broadband Engine/Cell and Apple sour grapes.

Re:I want a Cell Processor on a PCI-X card...

[JackAxe]

Yes, you've managed to prove nothing. Please try again.

Re:I want a Cell Processor on a PCI-X card...

[Mechcozmo]

In Tiger, a lot of the video work is offloaded to the Video Card already. Like the "eye candy" effects, etc. So you end up using your GPU more for what it was supposed to, and your CPU less. Works great!

Re:Spelling please?: Kutaragi

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmmmm......... in school, I knew a bunch of them. Kunimoto, Kawamoto, Enomoto, Sakaguchi, and Kawasaki to name some.... of course, the majority of the people I knew had three characters (just like me), but I didn't have to go years before meeting one (unless you count the years before preschool).

Re:Spelling please?: Kutaragi

[Anonymous Coward]

If it can't be said in ISO-8859-1, it can't be said on /.

The built in games?

[saskboy]

Does this mean that the default games for the PS3 will include Tux Racer, and Penguin Hunt?

Its not just about whether it runs linux

[jonwil]

But how Open the system will be.
For example, will it include binary kernel modules that are required to take advantage of all the hardware featutres?
Will it include usable 3D libraries (e.g. OpenGL?)
Will you get a driver so you can run an X server on it?
Will (like with the PS2 linux kit) you have to run via a special propriatory layer (i.e. a special "official" DVD that you boot from before any code on the hard disk runs) or will it boot from the hard disk directly?

Be interesting to see if things like MAME are able to use all that power...

It'd happen anyways...

[zeropointentity]

They don't have to put a computer OS on it at all, no. But it's not a dumb move to put on a popular one in the first place. It'd happen anyways.

The way I see it, Sony saves the average joe some time and effort. Sony gets more people interested in making games, or other apps, for their system which reduces costs in R&D. The Average Joe gets a new toy to play with, and rip apart (hopefully) legally. Sony gets money, We get toys and more fun, and everyone's happy.

You couldn't do that with Windows. Not unless every Xbox 360 comes with a copy of Visual Studio.

It's a smart business move.

Emacs? vi? a true geek fancies non of these!

[XSforMe]

http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node=ed

Re:OK, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

Professors don't send out documents in nerdy text formats.

I dunno, here at Berkeley we use LaTeX for a lot of CS assignments...

Re:Becoming hyped and ruining gaming simultaneousl

[Maagma]

Also consider that the PS3 will play all the games you loves on PS original and the PS2.

I beleive Nintendo is doing that with their new console as well.

support questions

[rayde]

this is huge for linux, it is going to put Linux into the hands of loads of people who previously never would have considered using it. but my question is, how will Sony support this? If it's a full-featured Linux installation, who's going to support Joe Frat-Boy with his Gamecocks hat when he has a dependency problem?

ok i realize dependency problems are SO 1999, but regardless, I've worked with Linux quite a lot and have grown dependent on the community aspects of it for support, etc. This huge roll-out of Linux should be interesting to watch.

How long until somebody compiles SNES9X and other emulators to their PS3 Linux, thereby erasing the cool original feature Nintendo had going for Revolution?

Re:support questions

[jclast]

This isn't as huge a leap as you're making it out to be. People have been emulating prior generations on consoles since the Dreamcast. If all we wanted in a console was classic game emulation, we'd all play on our Dreamcasts, PCs, and/or modded XBoxes.

Nintendo's angle with the Revolution is this: we don't all have the need or desire to run Linux on things. We don't all have the need or desire to install emulators on consoles. There's a huge segment of the video gaming market that doesn't know how to download, install, and run an emulator. These are the people Nintendo is selling to. If people are willing to pay $20 a pop for NES games on the GBA with no graphical update, Nintendo's going to rake in the money when Mommy and Daddy can download classics at the push of a button.

Re:But...

[The Ultimate Fartkno]

Just the other day I was ship-watching at a really noisy location with my foul-mouthed friend in the Navy and I said "HEY, YOU *$&%, IS THAT A DESTROYER?" and he yelled back "NO, CARRIER! *#&$!"

i'm so ashamed to have done that...

Same old mistakes

[detritus.]

If Sony wants to take linux seriously, they need to do two things:

1. Stop bundling hardware. Linux geeks are more than capable of providing their own hardware. This is what kept the PS2 Linux kit expensive (which came with a 30 gig drive, VGA adapter, keyboard and mouse), and yet the cost didn't depreciate over time to reflect falling hardware prices. This is probably because they did a single manufacturing run when the drives were indeed expensive, but still..

2. Support your drivers, or GPL them! I can understand Sony's reluctance to open the drivers for the PS2's hardware due to piracy concerns, but the least they could have done is provided updated compiled drivers for the PS2 to reflect new kernels. This is why we'll probably never see kernel 2.6 on the PS2 Linux kit.

Re:Same old mistakes

[CronoCloud]

They did drop the price of the kit to $99 later on in it's life and the HD is 40GB not 30 and the kit includes a network adapter. Kit owners were the first PS2 owners to have NA's. I know of several kit owners who played THPS3 with their kits before the official rollout of the NA later that year.

I smell an embedded OS....

[ShyGuy91284]

Or something that although it is an OS, it will not serve any purpose other then simplifying content creation by developers....

Re:I smell an embedded OS....

[WillAffleckUW]

so reboot from your flash drive with a new Linux OS then.

geesh, it's not exactly hard to do ...

Re:Spelling please?: Kutaragi

[Anonymous Coward]

Characters are different from syllables and some characters map to multiple syllables. As a random example, the entire name "Fukuzawa Yukichi" can be written with four characters.

Networked drives?

[ShyGuy91284]

He apparently has never used US broadband. You can't do all that much w/ the standard 56 k/s upload most ISP's provide in the US (As I recall, an hour of decent quality TV takes A couple hours at typical speeds). Through a local network? That could work. Throughout a Japanese neighborhood? Could probably work since their networks work in some ways similar to LANs.

Obligatory...

[big water]

So I guess you could make a Beowulf cluster of these things.

PS2 ALREADY has Sony supported LINUX

[Invisible Now]

Don't know why people are so sceptical about this. Sony shipped a nice developers kit with hardrive, keyboard and mouse for $199 for the PS2 more than three years ago.

So I believe them, now.

Think of the possibilities...

Re:Spelling please?

[UTPinky]

I know they get a lot of submissions, but for they few that get selected, they should check that the spelling is correct. It isn't that hard to run a paragraph through spellchecker."

"They few"? Not "The few"? Quit your bitchin...

Just another platform

[hydopower]

I'm sure some bored hackers will just figure out how to put windows on it. *rimshot*

Anybody else...

[skadus]

Anybody else think Kutaragi is like the Kim Jong-Il of the console gaming world?

I mean, now that Yamauchi is gone...

Stupid Fingers

[jojo tdfb]

passable should be possible

I cant belive this....

[this takes too long]

This system will ship harddisks with linux on it. This will make Linux a much much more popular and much much more FAMILIAR system.. Were is the standing ovation?

Why is there so little support here? It has to be patriotism..

The playstation looks, so far, to be the most exciting thing to happen in the living room since ever. It looks to destroy the xbox360 preformance wise, it has a huge library of games and all the good games will come to it, it aims to be more than just a console and become more of a livingroom computer, it use allready distributed technologies like bluetooth witch means no need for sony branded licensed hardware.... THIS IS GREAT

Sony has made a huge step towards a fair marketplace, it will make linux much more well known and probobly more ready for desktop use. All xbox has going for it is exclusives. Typical microsoft to gain its only advatage by locking competitors out....

Linux, PS2 and taxes in England ...

[hotspotbloc]

Isn't true that game consoles in England are taxed at a higher rate than computers, hence part of the reason Sony still offers the PS2-GNU/Linux kit there? They long ago stopped selling the same kit that worked on US PS2s. Could this be part of the reason for GNU/Linux kit for the PS3? If so, will they even sell the PS3-GNU/Linux kit in the US?

Re:Linux, PS2 and taxes in England ...

[CronoCloud]

They stopped selling them in the US because they ran out of NTSC kits with the NTSC discs.

The UK tax issue has nothing to do with it and besides the courts there eventually ruled it wasn't a computer even with the PAL Yabasic disc included.

The future of Business

[Anonymous Coward]

Ken's statements make complete sense. The translation makes them sound a little strange, but the future of business is there. The IT world has been telling us (the consumers) for a while what they envision in a different fields. In this interview Ken is confirming that PS3 will pursue network drives as standard. Not hardware in the box anymore, but an additional unit that you'll plug into the same network as the PS3 is on. An external HDD that could be a terabyte as he mentions. This is the future of business. Where computers are not just desktops slaved in your office; they are COMPLETE entertainment systems. They manage your music *ALL* around your home, they manage your data files, they manage your video, your pictures, your schedules, everything you can think of that a computer could do it's ALL being consolidated to ONE platform. Ken is positioning the PS3 to be that platform. That's why he's calling it a super computer. Not in the sense we're use to as in gigaflops processing speed. He's talking BROADSPECTRUM computing. I believe the PS3 and Linux will revolutionize the home PC industry. Look out Dell, Alienware, and whoever else makes PC's now adays because the beige box is about to become extinct.

Finally!

[xmorg]

With the majority of Xbox games in the bargain bin, this will be the final nail in the coffin of XBOX.

Finally linux will be vindicated for MS snatching away of halo from the Linux platform, as well as Jade empire. Curses on all game companyies who sold out to gates! Long live ID! long live TUX! long live SonY! and long live the blessed Loki Games!

Why not flash drive keychains?

[WillAffleckUW]

They'd be super cool, all the high school and college and university crowd have them and use them, and you could sell them as add-ons that have cool color or logo schemes - like Pokemon electric yellow with a Pikachu graphic one, or Luminescent transparent green with sparkles, or Ruby red lipstick (which actually looks like one), or whatever.

Only 1uz3rz use real HDD. Everyone else has moved on already - it's the 21st Centure, for godsake.

Re:Spelling please?: Kutaragi

[abramovs]

Her family was awarded the name "long lasting pleasure" because they were artists or craftsmen.

Are you sure that name wasn't awarded for another profession? Where did you meet this lady, btw? ;)

Consider...

[Greg_D]

Consider that you can fit an entire complete MAME rom directory, sans the huge hard drive images, on about 12 gigs or so. The entire catalog of SNES games is smaller. The entire catalog of NES games is even smaller than that. Same with Genesis, Sega Master System, Atari, etc.

Get the picture?

Nintendo is boasting backwards compatability of their system, which is nice, but the PS3 with hard drive would be a retrogamers' dream! If you have access to the DVD drive as well, you can even load a Saturn emulator.

Two Words: Linux Apps.

[torpor]

In case you didn't notice, Linux has apps.

You're hired

[lullabud]

As a representative of Microsoft(TM) Public Relations and Marketing Research, I'd like to formally offer you a job. You seem to have just the qualities we look for, you'll fit right in.

+1 insightful

[Dan Ost]

Please mod parent up. He's exactly right.

I never have mod points when I need 'em...

PS3MC

[lullabud]

So, when does work on PS3 Media Center start? :)

Amen

[Razzak]

I went through that. I love my PS2 and am really happy with it, but if Sony doesn't include a HD by default in the PS3, I'm gonna get myself an Xbox360. Screw paying them $100 for a crappy 40gig HD and then having it be completely useless.

It'd be stupid not to include the HD for the reasons you mentioned, and also because every PS3 they don't sell is possibly one less supporter of Blue-ray. They have multiple divisions riding on the PS3 success. Don't screw it up!

I for one...

[t35t0r]

welcome our linux running PS3 overlords

2.5" HDD

[t35t0r]

It will probably run a run-of-the-mill 2.5" laptop HD, which I think currently maxes out at 120g (what kutaragi was referring to). So you don't have to pay any Sony tax to purchase that HD

Re:2.5" HDD

[SScorpio]

It depends on if it will work in the PS3. The PS2's HDD was a standard 40GB Maxtor with a custom firmware. You could actually use any HD that would fit on the IDE and Molex connectors on the PS2's network adapter under Linux; however, the custom firmware was required if you wanted the HD to work with games on a non-modded system. We'll have to see if Linux will require the custom firmware, and with the PS2 you needed a bootdisk to be able to launch into Linux.

Re:2.5" HDD

[t35t0r]

screw playing games, no good games have come out since i played doom or wolf3d. I just want to do something constructive on this box..it's well worth the commodity prices we will have to shell out initially. no more than $550 after tax probably and another $100 for a decent harddrive. Not one game is gonna touch my machine.

Ahh Tuxracer!

[Anonymous Coward]

What else could a gamer want?

Re:Ahh Tuxracer!

[CronoCloud]

Nethack.

Re:I smell an Assumption

[jojo tdfb]

Assumeing the PS3 lets you boot from a flash drive....

Sell it on ebay

[herc_mk2]

The Linux Kit is still in demand, and no longer available. If you're not using it, consider putting it on ebay or similar. I know several people trying to get it.

In addition to the OS, HDD, KB, and mouse, you also get the developers guides for the EE, GS/GIF, VU/VIF, etc., which is almost worth the price of the kit, IMHO. And it's a pretty decent keyboard and mouse -- no "windows keys" on the KB...

And (as another poster mentioned), it will run on an NTSC or PAL TV, if you press the magic buttons during the bootup sequence. It will look quite crappy if you're using a composite video connector; SVGA or component video is remarkably more readable.

Re:Why? - Commodore 64

[Anonymous Coward]

The C64 had advanced graphics and sound. It was more than just a computer - it was a computer designed to play games.

This isn't that much different than a PS3 (as long as you can add the much needed keyboard and mouse).

Also, price isn't a consideration. After a couple of years, it should be selling in the $200 range. The C64 sold for $595 and that was 1980s money.

Re:I smell an Assumption

[ShyGuy91284]

Yes, another point. Some are assuming "Linux? So it'll be easy to tinker with". I think not. As fun as the XBox is for the dev community, that's probably the last thing console makers and software developers for the consoles want to happen.

I don't care!

[Anonymous Coward]

My first PS2 played my DVD-R backups.
It died and I yesterday purchased a new PS2.
The new PS2's do not play DVD-R's.
I have two Sony wide screen TV's, one of which weighs about 250 lbs, a Sony Laptop, three Sony DVD players a Sony car Mp3/CD player and have two Sony VHS players along with assorted Walkman's etc.
I'll never purchase another Sony product again ever.
I'm going going to leave my mothers basement today to purchase a DVD player that will play DVD-R's or does the Xbox play them. If it does I'll switch to Xbox, either way fuck Sony!

The XBox using which processor again?

[SuperKendall]

And also, unless homebrew developers wanna spend an assload of time learning to program for the cell processor and going through with it, the Xbox core will provide easier to work with.

The XBox core is runnign which processor again? Because at last word from the presses, it's ALSO running the cell! v.2 instead of v.3.

How is that going to be easier, when the PS3 already has the user bootable part going for it without any hack or modchip at all? That's usually the first tricky bit is to find the chink in the console to let it load your own code. If you can boot Linux then you can do anything with the PS3, the hard part being out of the way. Why would THAT not be easier to port media centers and the like to.

It's not like in the PC world where people keep programming for Windows because there are a lot of them and Microsoft deve tools lock you in. The guys working on XBox stuff right now have no particulat XBox loyalty really, they just want a powerful console they can run the stuff they build on. If the PS3 is as/more powerful than the XBox 360 (which the PS2 simply was not) and the PS3 has a higher marketshare (pretty much certain even in the US) then people would have to be crazy not to head into custom PS3 development.

Re:The XBox using which processor again?

[Anonymous Coward]

Xbox 360 is not running the Cell. Where did you see that?

Re:The XBox using which processor again?

[leeharris100]

Wow. You obviously know nothing about cell or triple-core technologies. The cell processor has 1 general purpose core, and 7 special purpose threads. The 360 is using a triple core general purpose processor. That means it has 3 general purpose 3 ghz processors, unlike the 1 general purpose the cell does. In order to utilize the full potential of the cell you would have to program for specific use all 7 threads. It's a pain in the ass, but you wouldn't know, you lack even common knowledge. And yes, they do have XBOX loyalty. Xbox modding has proven to be much more powerful, but not just because of raw system power. The way the system was built was perfect for modders to utilize. Also, it'll be much easier to port current Xbox apps and utilities to the 360 than to any other system. And many important developers have moved solely to 360 or plan on some 360 games. So please, get your facts straight before you try to disprove anyone.

Well......

[shoblime]

I run Linux on my XBOX now...I can't wait to never buy microsoft again!! I am more impressed with the xbox 360 vs ps3 overall, but with linux support, I know which one I will support with my dollars!!

Re:Well......

[KillShill]

yet you are drooling over the prospect of buying sony (RIAA/MPAA member).

Xen?

[Azrel666]

The comment about the OS running as an "application" in the CELL got me wondering if they are using some Xen patched Linux kernel? Can anyone confirm this?

Re:Becoming hyped and ruining gaming simultaneousl

[Anonymous Coward]

You obviously don't have a very good grasp of what Nintendo offers its customers. The Gamecube library is quite robust and if you were to compare the titles offered on each system I can guarantee you will find more quality games on the Gamecube than on any of the other systems combined.

Since when is innovation overrated? Innovation is what makes videogames fun. I don't know about you but if I play another WW2 FPS I'm going to puke. Games today are stale and Nintendo happens to be one of the companies looking to bring games in a new direction. I want to see games that have never been done before, something that we have never seen because this makes gaming worthwhile. You enjoy your zillion iterations of Halo, Madden, and the same old FPS's that we have seen for 5 years at this point.

We all know that when Nintendo comes up with something new it'll be a week before Sony and Microsoft start to copy them. Look at anything Nintendo has ever done and you can be sure someone has ripped them off. They obviously have pretty good vision and their INNOVATION has brought gaming to where it is today.

Agreed! But keep in mind it's Sony.

[nobodyman]

I couldn't agree more. Besides the cost implications of having the HD come standard, I'm sure that Sony feels that the reception of the ps3 by the media and gamer community was so much greater than Xbox360 that they could safely take the hit in perception and still wind up a winner. An expensive gamble. I'd agree that ps3 probably has more buzz... but not THAT much more buzz.

You can almost hear the sound of mass high-fiving coming from Redmond. Not only does do they have the HD advantage, but there is simply no way that Sony is going to be able to put a cap on the royalty-free homebrew gaming exchange. My guess is that they figure the homebrew market wont big enough to be a concern, or maybe this is a move prompted by Nintendo (the rumor is that, like iTunes music store, indy developers will be able to create content for the Revolution's download service).

However, I still think Sony can change their mind. When they announced that the PSP would have 8 megs of RAM, the community balked and the developers were in a riot. A couple months of bad press and Sony revised the specs and upped the RAM to 32megs ("what? 8 megs? we never said 8 megs!").

Rest assured that if the media love-fest dies, or if the 360 gets too popular, sony will do an about-face. By then, however, the damage will be done on the first generation titles.

Re:Why? - Commodore 64

[HyperChicken]

The C64 had advanced graphics and sound. It was more than just a computer - it was a computer designed to play games.

There's still a key difference: The PS3 was designed for gaming, whereas the C64 was designed for general use. This doesn't mean one cannot use it for the other purprose, just that there are better options.

Also, price isn't a consideration. After a couple of years, it should be selling in the $200 range. The C64 sold for $595 and that was 1980s money.

That's foolish. Price is always a consideration for the consumer. A couple years from now, a PC could be selling for $200 and still be doing a lot more than a PS3.

Cell vs. x86 Benchmarks...

[fbg111]

Probably won't take long for some hardware site to find a way to benchmark a PS3 vs. an x86 PC/workstation/server running Linux, despite the extremely different architecture. Should be cool to finally see how much PS3 owns in Media procesing and gets owned in any apps that require out-of-order processing.

Yeah, but...

[sammy baby]

Yeah, but the real question is, can you run Linux on it?

Oh, wait.

Re:Yeah, but...

[PigleT]

I'm wondering if they're going to include sources under the terms of the GPL.

Re:But...

[wheany]

I love you.

Emulating a classic game console on Cell CPU

[tepples]

A Cell CPU contains a traditional PowerPC core and several DSPs. Does an emulator of the video chip of an NES, Sega Genesis, Super NES, or GBA use lots of branching logic, other than possibly the comparison of each pixel to 0 to determine transparency when compositing layers? I'd imagine that in an emulator hosted on a Cell CPU and targeting a classic game console, the PPC would emulate the CPU, and the DSPs would handle most of the work of the video and sound chips. I'd also imagine that the DSPs could handle vectors of integers as well as they do vectors of floats, as decoding of compressed audio and video uses a lot of integer math.

Re:Emulating a classic game console on Cell CPU

[LWATCDR]

"I'd also imagine that the DSPs could handle vectors of integers as well as they do vectors of floats, as decoding of compressed audio and video uses a lot of integer math."
except that a I am pretty sure for NES, Sega Genesis, SNES, and the GBA did not use compressed video or audio.
THe Cell might be of some use for the audio and video. but the PPC core should be good enough

Omitting HDD a good idea

[jmorris42]

> Nonesense. Never came close to filling up the 8gig on my Xbox, but
> every game I've played has made use of the HD because they KNOW it
> will be there.

As other posters have already corrected you re: confusing PS3 and XBox I'll just mention again that saving games isn't the point.

What I would like to add (and hope it is true) is that by omitting an internal HDD they force game devs to implement a robust game save mechanism instead of just defaulting to the internal drive and not offering anything else. Now they must consider some will use memory cards, some will buy a USB2 memory key, USB Zip drive, HDD, etc. and expect to be able to save games on any/all of them.

Re:Omitting HDD a good idea

[MBraynard]

Listen you tool, no one corrected me. Nerds are so ... hard... to... talk....to.

Saying the games I have use the HD does not infer anything about saved games. Not only does it do that, but it saves my live settings, my profiles for all the games, some music CDs, and most importantly, caches a lot of data to speed up the game and lower loading times and allow for larger areas, etc.

And your other point is equally irrational. Not only does having a HD or not having a HD not affect whether the use of other storage devices for saves (Xbox has USB-based memory cards, too), but the "game dev" doesn't really give a damn whether it's a memory key, a zip drive (yeah right!), a HDD, or whaveter. It's the system OS that handles all of that - all the devs see is "there is a space here" and "this space is X size."

Re:Omitting HDD a good idea

[Breakfast Pants]

That's not true. On the xbox all the dev sees is "there is x space on the hard drive". The user then has to go to a seperate menu outside of the game to copy from the HD to a card. That is what the parent was complaining about.

"Pentium 3/4"?

[tepples]

I haven't seen benchmarks but I'd say the performance is probably closer to a PowerPC 603 or a 586 than it is to a PowerPC 970/G5 or a Pentium 3/4.

Watch out. Intel's Pentium 3 CPU line, especially in the newer core versions sold under the name Pentium M, has a much higher instructions per megacycle figure than any Pentium 4 CPU. The P4's clock-for-clock performance, I've read, is somewhere between that of an i486 and an original Pentium. But at the clock rates of a modern P4 or Cell processor, that's not as much of an issue.

Copyright protection != copy prevention

[tepples]

Cell does copyright protection at the hardware level doesn't it?

No hardware can fully implement copyright protection, which would include evaluating each use against the four fair use factors recognized by U.S. copyright law. It might have hardware to perform technological copy prevention, a much simpler problem yet still difficult because of the diversity of physical attacks on a computer system.

Will this bring Linux to the desktop?

[Ridgelift]

It's been a common belief that computer games are what really drive the industry. Why else do people drop $2000.00 to replace their old computer which is only a few years old? Why else do AMD and Intel give their latest hardware months in advance of public release to the top game producers? They know people will spend the cash to play the latest game titles, not so they can run Word or Outlook faster (that's just a side benefit).

Make no mistake, Linux on the PS3 is a big deal. It will bring Linux into the mainstream where people can really get their hands on a Linux-based device. When people begin to associate Linux with a cool, sleek game machine that puts out the best graphics of any device, it will be much easier for users and developers to want the same thing on their computers.

But will it be enough to unseat Microsoft and dominate the Desktop landscape? Maybe. I think it's more likely Linux will be part of "the next big thing" whatever that might be. Some sort of cellphone, game console, High-Def recorder. Maybe Linux will morph the landscape into solid-state, computers that's just a flat panel, a keyboard and mouse, with the hard drive being just USB memory sticks. Or maybe PS3-like devices and a Plasma high-def big screen TV's. Or maybe something else.

I don't know, but I think I hear a lot of commotion down in Redmond, Washington.

8 MB and constantly swapping

[tepples]

So you are suggesting that Emacs is going to be able to *fit* on the hard drive?

Bad joke. Doesn't the "EM" in Emacs stand for Eight Megs? Heck the PS2 had four times that much RAM. There's no reason the PS3+HDD+Linux+HDTV+keyboard wouldn't be able to run GNU Emacs or XEmacs with an essential set of elisp modules loaded.

Attack of the XBox FanBoi!

[SuperKendall]

Oh No! The XBox FanBoi claims that no developers will move to the PS3 because the XBox Roxxors!

Wow dude, you sure know way more than me about Cell development. No way I can win that argument I see or even make a dent in that planet size rock you call your head (just to return the favor of the uncalled for personal insults). Take a look around in a year and a half, and see what has transpired. The proof is in the pudding as they say. Then you will truly realize th emight of my intellect and perhaps, just perhaps, you might experience a wierd feeling - it's called "humility".

PSP

[medgooroo]

for the love of god give us linux for the psp! or at least return the arbitrary code execution from firmware 1.0! Its a handheld 222MHz (333 :) ) MIPS box with wifi, sweet screen, ir and usb! surely you can see the attraction?

You forgot the dull, homogenous sports games

[spun]

Blech. Then again, I'm a nerd, and by definition we don't like sports. But I am looking forward to Gran Turismo 5. Maybe we'll finally have collision and damage modelling, decent AI and more than six cars on the track.

Attack of the Moron!

[leeharris100]

Oh yes I'm definitely an Xbox fanboi, thats why I mod PS2s, GCs, and XBOXs! And I like the PS2 game wise more than the Xbox! Woot you hit it right on the head!

Yes, you can clearly predict the future of technology when you don't even know what a cell processor is.

Yes but...

[Danimoth]

Will it run Linux?

Gangster Gangster

[kangpeh]

I think it would be pretty gangster, gangster if PS3 also would run on LIVECD releases of Linux, such as Ubuntu LiveCD or Knoppix. It would even make it MORE gangster, gangster, if these LiveCD releases came equipped with EMULATORS or whatnot and then we could plan SNES, N64, NES, GB, GBAdvanced, GCube, XBOX, PS1, PS2, PS3, etc on a PS3. That would be very gangster gangster, and I ain't no prankster prankster. What.

Re:Gangster Gangster

[Anonymous Coward]

What in the fuck did you just try to say?

This is smart.

[unkokue]

The feeble protections console makers generally like to put @ their crap only attract the good hackerizers. Sony is smartey pants.

Yea but....

[Jeff Benjamin]

will it run lin... Oh wait, I just RTFA.

So we'd be able to run Lindows?

[r_jensen11]

You know what that means! Look out, Gentoo users! We can portage from X86 to Cell! Woohoo!!!

Re:Why? - Commodore 64

[CronoCloud]

Actually the C64 was originally invisioned as a games console. It evolved into a computer during development.

Re:Why? - Commodore 64

[CronoCloud]

but sub 500 dollar machines, or hell, sub 1000 dollar machines are not suitable for off the shelf games.

Vector processors

[tepples]

I am pretty sure for NES, Sega Genesis, SNES, and the GBA did not use compressed video or audio.

Video: Compared to 32-bit RGBA, the 2-bit-per-pixel textures of NES, Game Boy, Game Boy Color, and Neo Geo Pocket Color are certainly compressed images. Sega Genesis, Super NES, and GBA most often use 4-bit textures. Some more recent GBA games use full motion video, but those would be decompressed by the emulated CPU (which is running on the PowerPC core). In addition, I mentioned "compressed video" as IBM and Sony had mentioned that the Cell CPU might be useful in a set-top box that has to decode ATSC video, which at one point in decoding (after tuner, after de-8VSB, during multiplexing, before and possibly during video and audio decoding) is represented as an integer bitstream; therefore, a vector processor has to be able to handle vectors of integers.

Audio: the NES and Super NES support compressed audio samples: NES uses DMC, a simple integrator of +1/-1 values, while Super NES uses BRR, a 4-bit-per-sample ADPCM system similar to PlayStation VAG. Generating 1.79 MHz waveforms (NES) or 2.10 MHz waveforms (GBA) and downsampling them to 48 kHz for the DAC to use is also something that could be easily handled by a DSP.

Did anyone not see this coming?

[Stonewolf57]

Just another sign of a dying company. Agreed there are some other good points here, such as Sony not wanting to give money to their competitor, but personally, I think it's mainly because of MS' core flaws: security, consumer listening, crappy product in general.

Security never would have really been a problem in the past, except that now, you got ps2's on the net, you've got them on game networks, hell you could probably tinker with a group of ps2's and get them to run an office network (why you'd want to I don't know), who really thought Sony wouldn't start thinking about security for the ps3? I haven't heard about any yet, but I'm sure somebody is working on a ps2 virus, hacks are probably fairly common at this point, lacking anti-virus and password support, and so far as anyone can tell any real security support at all. Hell Xbox hacking has already been done for that matter, I'm sure ps2 has, too.

Consumer listening: It's a well known facts that Microsoft doesn't really listen to consumer's. Find an obscure, but useful security flaw in Windows that nobody else knows about. Report it to Microsoft. See what happens. 95% likely, nothing st all. You're lucky if you even get a response from them (I've seen this sort of thing happen before).

Crappy product: just like everything else Microsoft has ever produced, Linux can probably do it better. Better use of memory, better coding, better process management. Just name something that Microsoft does better with Windows over Linux. Come on, I dare ya.

Re:Why? - Commodore 64

[HyperChicken]

And the PS3 will be able to play off-the-shelf Windows games? I think not.

Re:Why? - Commodore 64

[CronoCloud]

No, it will play off the shelf PS3 games. Some of which will be games that a sub $500 computer will not be able to play the PC port of.

I've got a budget laptop, it's not capable of running Final Fantasy XI, but my PS2 is.

Same goes for that Star Wars Battlefront.

I love this, now I'll wait for the ps3 laptop

[antikristian]

Hooking up an lcd and keyboard on a cell computer that runs linux with 100% hardware support, now all I need is a Toshiba/sony vaio playstation 3 laptop