Slashdot Mirror
Ellison: Linux Will Soon Decimate MS Windows
cioxx writes "Speaking to a few-hundred ISVs at an Oracle-sponsored event in New York, Larry Ellison made a bold prediction , also covered in Infoworld, stating: "(Microsoft has) already been killed by one open-source product. Slaughtered, wiped out, taken from market dominance to irrelevance [...]", referring to Apache's displacement of MS IIS server. He continues on with a claim that battle for datacenter dominance is looming with a clear advantage on the side of Open-Source platforms, and desktop would follow once Star Office becomes completely "usable" to compete with MS Office. "And it's going to happen to them again on Linux." Newsforge also has a related article on Oracles ongoing linux efforts.
A farmer in Ohio said that Linux is better than Windows. Too bad that couldn't make the front page, too...
...and she's a marketer.
She does so to get a little street credibility with geeks.
My point? If the marketers are going to software like this to get a marketing edge, then there is a chance Ellison is right.
668: Neighbour of the Beast
Decimate means "reduce by 10%".
It does NOT mean:
"Slaughtered, wiped out, taken from market dominance to irrelevance"
chrisd, Get a dictionary.
I think it will be quite a while before StarOffice becomes completely compatible with MS Office - it's in MS's own best interest to keep Office separate just to keep the installed base in place...
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
IIS never had a chance. IIS came late. Everyone wanted a web site so they learned/ran Apache. IIS was never and has never been dominant. I do agree that Open source will take over for alot of things and Microsoft will be relegated to either another Linux distro or a application and hardware only company.
Gorkman
on PostgreSQL and MySQL.
why should the market forces that apply to MS not apply to Oracle?
Build those yachts while the sun shines, Larry!
Humorous signatures are over-rated.
So how does that explain the chaos from Code Red?
... and the PC will be made obsolete by thin
clients, stupid boxes without a hard disk (predicted by Mr. Oracle from way back).
Does anybody remember those days?
Microsoft says windows will destroy linux,
Oracle says linux will destroy windows
Baath party says republican-guard will crush allies
Washington says guard will be crushed
What's going on? It's almost as if there is some kind of weighting to what people are saying based on the outcome they favour. I just don't understand it.
But will one new company try to take advantge in the vacuum left by MS's downfall. Maybe companies are left having closed except that they build a following for having stable, well-developed software. OLr maybe some OSS with charging for support, setup/maintainance. Whatever happens, some reactionary people who do nothing to contribute to anything will always have something to say, and call them evil.
MS is after all things, a survivor. Maybe they will embrace and extend an open model, or just give windows away for nothing and/or have a one-time licensing for each product.
why run from Vincenzo?
it is great news to read Larry Ellison telling nice words about Open Source Software
I had to deal only remotely with Oracles licensing habbits. Seemed even more complicated than "open license" from MS.
I had to deal closer with Oracles interpretation of SQL-Standards "we don't obey them, we set them"
I had to deal with Oracles "bundled utilities" - documentation-files running across 400 screen pages. Comments like "if you want to change a tipped command, just simply erase it and type it new (decades after GNU readline)Where is the big difference in the companies attitude to Microsoft? Am I to blind to see?
Larry Ellison gets his name in the papers!
Sorry if I sound underwhelmed, but I think this is just another example of him doing a good job at getting some publicity.
Yeah Apache's winning, on the server side, Linux is winning... but the desktop, if it ever happens, is waaaay into the future.
Microsoft isn't stupid, they won't go down that easy. And Ellison is THAT good at self-promotion.
MS wants to get people used to having a MS badged device in their home. One that just works, doesn't bluescreen etc, so that people are comfortable with it. They can then lever other services onto the platform; TiVo like capabilites, email, web browsing etc. This XBox follow up will be the hub of a home network.
Sony are aiming for a similar thing with the Playstation line. So far they have a head start on consumer trust.
You may think me a tired, old, cynic. I'd have to disagree about the tired bit.
Looking at the figures it doesn't look to me like IIS has gone from market leader to irrelevance. For the last 5 years - since IIS appeared - Apache has maintained a market share roughly twice that of IIS. But both shares have grown.
I think a lot of people will have to become more aware of linux, and those that are aware, but not particularly tech savvy less daunted by the reputation linux has gained before "average user applications" like spreadsheets and wordprocessing can be dominated by linux.
...Larry Ellison made a bold prediction...
Again? Last time he predicted anything, it was the diskless "network computer", that will decimate traditional pc's. That was supposed to happen around 1997. Now that was a bold prediction. Probably as valuable as this one.
I think Mr. Ellison has found his latest trendy technology crusade... Let's hope his predictions fo Linux are better than for instance:
* Network Computers
* Netscape
* Sun One
* Java (it's a success, but not so large as Ellison wanted)
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate his support for Linux BUT this guy will say anything to make a buck.
$G
-- $G
With IIS, it's not really a decimation, more like a forceful ruling. While I personally think that this kind of rule will happen in the data center, I don't think Microsoft will be decimated.
Maybe Office will eventually have to split from the rest of the company as it's operating system software drags it down, now that would lead to a decimation!
They say here:
Its not trying to be an IIS clone.
Other OS products are trying to implement tomorrow what Microsoft did yesterday. You can't beat someone in a race if you're trying to follow in their footsteps.
For Microsoft to seriously compeat in the server market these things are a must: -Fix Windows Server memory problems (More up time) -Remove IIS domain controller intergration (Who really wants domain intergration anyway!) -Rebuild IIS FTP from scratch and add-in some configability. (You can't even ban IP's with the current one!) -Stop adding features and go back and make a perfect Windows 2K server -Stop with the bugs and patches....and security holes -sigh- This is the min really
According to the infoworld article and the computerworld article:
not staroffice, as theSure, I love "amost usable" software. There's another phrase for "almost usable". It's "not actually very useful".
I think Open Source projects are certainly displacing the sale of Microsoft products.
I don't have all that much direct evidence, but I do know that my organization is moving to Apache for new web servers. So instead of making new services available through IIS, we're using Apache.
However, we're not tearing down IIS servers proactively. If they're running and reliable and performing a useful service, we're not messing with them. It's just more economical to leave things at status quo when possible.
Our biggest issue right now is the lack of support with NT4. Microsoft recently fired a warning shot regarding their ability to address security issues within NT4. Alas, most of our older IIS boxes run NT4, and now we have to take a hard look at each server and decide what to do. NT4 to 2000 is certainly a lower impact upgrade, but as any administrator knows, there is a real possibility that other upgrades will be necessary while making san OS upgrade.
So although I agree that both Linux and Apache are rising stars in my data center, my organization isn't just chucking all their previous investments in Microsoft - it just wouldn't be prudent at this juncture.
Q.: What's the difference between God and Larry Ellison?
A: God doesn't think he's Larry Ellison
Lets face it- Allison likes to needle MS and make outrageous claim. He can afford to, since he is one of the richest men on Earth. But before we all stand and cheer "MS is dead! Long live Linux!", let's remember that Apache is one of very few open-source projects which can compete with MS products in terms of market share. And you can bet your pants that in any of those areas, including web servers, MS is doing all it can to reverse that situation.
So don't applaud Ellison's high words- they may do your ego good, but what the open-source world needs is better software, better marketing and less fragmentation. We are still a long long way from beating MS, so don't rest on your laurels just yet...
Just my 2 cents worth...
I'm fairly certain he could get a job with the Iraqi Information Ministry.
______________
Cheap web site hosting - where the tight go to host.
I would like to agree with Ellison in that Apache will decimiate IIS and take control of the market. I like Apache. It works and does its job well. However there will always be one corner of the market that just wants a nice GUI where things just work.
Apart from Comanche I've never seen a GUI for Apache that can offer a good balance of ease of use/functionality. I'm sure there is one out there and if so prehaps Apache should bundle it so they can take on all market
Rus
Cheap UK and US VPS
Heh. I have no faith in Ellison after the Network Computer.
Obligatory UserFriendly link: here.
For Microsoft to seriously compeat in the server market these things are a must: -Fix Windows Server memory problems (More up time) -Remove IIS domain controller intergration (Who really wants domain intergration anyway!) -Rebuild IIS FTP from scratch and add-in some configability. (You can't even ban IP's with the current one!) -Stop adding features and go back and make a perfect Windows 2K server -Stop with the bugs and patches....and security holes -sigh- This is the min really
Openoffice.org somehow got changed to staroffice in the slashdot blurb. Of course, openoffice is the greater threat to MS. Just as they could kill netscape, but not mozilla.
... is the insinuation that Microsoft once 'had' dominance in the webserver sphere. As far as I can remember (and I could be wrong, though I've been on the 'net since before the Web and this is my perception) Apache has *always* been the #1 web server, with IIS only ever coming close to playing catchup.
So it wasn't that MS' dominance was ever 'beaten', its just that they cannot beat the dominant methodology for web servers, which is Open Source.
I think there's a difference between saying 'beaten back' and just 'beaten from the gate'.
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
I can't remember where I read it but someone made a good point about open office file formats. OpenOffice is making itself be able to open M$ documents which in itself is a good thing. However this is not yet perfect so to make sure formatting and everything is correct you have to save it in a native format. The problems comes that if you now want to send that document to someone else (who isn't running OpenOffice) you have to convert it back to send it to them. What is really needed is a universal format (such as XML/RTF) where anyone can read/write a document and it would still maintain its formating.
I would included PDF in that list however writing to PDF can be hard for people in M$ where they have to by Adobe distiller
Rus
Cheap UK and US VPS
Yep that was my first thought too.. ' where have we heard this sort of talk before from this guy'.
But you really never know what the future holds, look what OSS has done so far in the last 10 years. Who woud have predicted that 20 years ago? ( except RMS, of course )
---- Booth was a patriot ----
remember that Larry Ellison has always made these kind of claims -- but I've yet to see Database-based filesystems or Sun's "dumb-terminal-esque" network computers take off in the mainstream. though supposedly Microsoft is working on the former.
I do believe that Microsoft's power will fade, due in large part to Office competitors. I can't see how Microsoft can maintain their Office monopoly when they keep rachetting up the price. Even the OEM version, bundled with a new PC, is several hundred dollars. So many people will turn to alternatives, like MS Works. Once many people are running scaled back versions like Works, then some people will start realizing that StarOffice (and others) are better, and even cheaper. Not everyone will switch, but all you need is a critical mass, which will give competitors enough money to reinvest in improving their office suites, allowing them to compete head to head with the full version of Office. Microsoft will have to cut prices for an indefinite period, which will lower profits. Lower profits in the Office division will reduce or eliminate their ability to absorb losses in other divisions, forcing a retreat from other markets. Sure, they have large cash reserves, but you'd be amazed how fast you can blow through billions of dollars when you're forced to compete for the first time in years.
The only thing that's needed, as I see it, is a competitor to Windows. I would love for someone to make Linux into something the average computer user would be comfortable using, but I just don't think it'll ever happen. I'd love for OS X to run on commodity hardware, but I don't think that'll happen either. So I'm not sure that Microsoft will ever lose the desktop OS monopoly. I can always hope though.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
Make love, not war,
Dan
you can't extrapolate the success of Apache to the desktop market. Webservers have no problems with incompatibility and user-friendliness is less of a concern since the users usually are computer technicians.
The desktop market is a whole different ballgame; Microsoft software is abundant and currently the only competitor in terms of ease of use is Apple and not the Open Source movement.
__________________
CowboyNeal has no association with Cheap web site hosting and probably never will.
I have limited experience (managed to install and set up RH 8.0 as a router for my home network) with linux but here are a few thoughts.
Linux is not ready for the dsesktop. The recent discussion about mozilla incorporating smooth scrolling illustrates a fundamental problem within the linux community. Most *nix users who want to see linux replace windows on the desktop aren't willing to compete with MS in the areas which really matter to a non techie user. Many people here laughed and scorned the screenshots of the recent longhorn builds where you had lots of new UI features, admittedly most of them will probably not amount to anything but the UI does matter.
For a non techie user the choice at the moment is windows which is very easy to use but is prone to crashes amnd viruses, alternatively they have linux which is very difficult to get the hang of when coming from a windows background. Reliability means nothing if the user can't get anything done with linux. I'm no MS fanboy but I do beleive that they have gone in the right direction with the XP interface, and I also don't think you can really argue with the fact that games, multimedia and simple office apps are all easier to use for a non techie user on a windows platform.
Now whether MS dominace is down to a genuinely more instinctive UI or whether people are just more familiar with it (and hence more productive) is down to debate. I'm sure many linux advocates will dismiss the idea that MS's windows UI is "better" that any of linux distos but they are reeally missing the point.
If you want linux on the desktop then linux developers need to compete with MS. This includes making sure there is support for all types of multimedia, improving choice of games, improving window responsiveness, and all the other little MS UI elements that most *nix users would probably consider frivolous.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Mr Ellison stated, that the free and open Postgresql will render the expensive and clumsy Oracle database obsolete by 2005.
ich bin der musikant
mit taschenrechner in der hand
kraftwerk
from the tyranny of Torvalds.
He's got more money, more marketing staff, and a "coalition" of business partners.
You should all just surrender now and welcome the freedom of MS-Windows.
...who needs enemies? Does anything this guy says still have relevance after his earlier "predictions". Anyway... what does he have to do with Linux and free software anyway??? He just hates MS and will use anything against it. He doesn't care if it is Linux or any other OS/platform/programming language (as long as it is not a Database of course). Maybe I should make the bold statement that MySQL will wipe out Oracle! We should have a "Crazy Ellison" icon on /. Who is with me? :)
'Decimate' means to reduce by one-tenth. It originates from the punishment for mutiny given to a whole Roman legion: killing every tenth man. So if you think that Windows installations are 10% less than they would have been if Linux didn't exist, then Linux has already decimated Windows, at least on the server.
:-).
It's the remaining 90% that is at stake
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
People have been saying this for years now, so what year exactly can we expect this to happen?
Saying Java is nice because it works on all OS's is like saying that anal sex is nice because it works on all genders.
I worry about anything Larry Ellision gets behind. Not saying this to besmirch Open Source or Linux, but Ellision is evil, and always has ulterior motives.
Hate and spitefulness are not good forms of advocacy.
More information here.
I think that it will be just a matter of time until similar news will come from rest of Asia, Europe and finally USA.
But there are a couple of steps before wiping out MS completely. I would think that ntfs is more or less a standard, I would think that you know, linux would be able to write to these partitions out of the box without fucking them up. Perhaps I'm just a bit bitter from a recent experience, but hey.
;)
That said, there are significant advances every so often in the open source / linux world - not so much for windows. Besides a few minor changes (which solved pretty annoying problems), I really don't see the big difference between windows 2000 server and 2003 server. And I really don't think longhorn is going to help MS much either.
Anyways, its late, mod me down, up whatever, goodnight
1q2w3e4r5t6y7u8i9o0pqawsedrftgthyjukilo;p'azsxdcf
It means "reduce *to* 10%" you cretin. If you're going to be a smartarse at least be right.
What's not usable about OpenOffice.org now?
The one steady complaint I hear is "doesn't do a perfect job of opening Microsoft Office formats". THat complaint is, even if true, ridiculous. If OpenOffice.org is to replace MS Office, sure, the path to getting there is easier of people don't have to notice, but eventually the proprietary MS formats would become irrelevant. This isn't a real criticism. Might as well criticise Word for not being able to open all those legacy LaTeX files that scientists and mathemticians have all over the places, huh?
(Not that I consider anything legacy about LaTeX myself... I still think that is definitely the right way to do large and technical documents.)
The only realy complaint that I've got about OOo is the support for animations in Impress. It seems to crash on Flash animations even on computers where I've got the Flash plugin installed... and it seems to depend on the Flash plugin from mozilla, rather than from itself. First, I'd much rather there were an open vector animation format out there for OOo to use, but that's not necessarily OOo's fault; if there is one, it doesn't have widespread acceptance and prominence. But, even beyond that, I haven't figured out how to embed MPEG or similar animations into OOo presentations, nor have I figured out how to get OOo to put its screen to the back so that if I hack in mplayer via a command line script (not the best interface for most people using Impress, but one that works for me), the full screen animation can even be seen.
As far as I'm concerned, solve that issue in Impress, and OOo is way more than anything I'd want out of an office suite like that.
Well, OK, and the equation editor is severely limited. (Only 8 colours?) Plus it's a pain... I speak TeX equations, and am resisting learning a new one. Right now, I usually use TeX and ImageMagick to put equations in my Impress presentations as transparent PNG images.
What are the things that people like Larry Ellison think are missing that make it only "almost" usable?
-Rob
I don't think Linux will have a chance among gamers until the newest releases can be installed with ease (read: no dependencies, loading wine, or other backwards thing to make it :seem: like its on windows) and played right away. Until that time, I'm going to play some Generals.
this is my sig, there are many like it, but this one is mine.
Following your argument, microsoft hadn't a chance when they (finally) got into the internet hype and launched Internet Explorer. They were very late to acknoledge the importance of internet, and netscape had by then achieved a pretty dominant position. However, they did succeed in displacing Netscape, and didn't succeed in displacing Apache. Obviously, there are other reasons why IIS never really got any foothold, Apache being open source and a really good product being the most import one, I think.
---
"The chances of a demonic possession spreading are remote -- relax."
Larry Ellison has about zero credibility. Remember "Network Computers" and how they were going to take over the world? Sure, Larry. There have been many other examples over the years. His crystal ball is more tarnished and cracked than Miss Cleo's.
Larry is just being a cheerleader because he sees economic benefit in the vision of a Microsoft-less future. He'd also like to see Bill Gates take a hit. That's it. No facts here, move along.
You people _really_ lack historical perspective, by and large.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
That's what is wanted now. If MS/Sony come along and says "our next gen console not only provides you with the best gaming experience available but acts as a home hub providing email/web access, programme recording/playback as well, all for no extra cost" who is going to complain?
People will buy what they are sold. As a sheep you should know this :)
You may think me a tired, old, cynic. I'd have to disagree about the tired bit.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I think it'd be interesting to see the number of times Ellison has come up and claimed 'this or that will kill Microsoft' over the last few years.
I seem to remember something about network computers. As far as I can tell that was the biggest bit of vapor hardware ever. I've never seen anything like that in the enterprise.
Were there any others?
But not to say that I don't think that LInux has a chance. From where I sit I see lots of 4 Way Xeon MP servers coming along that are being at least tested against a Sun box. I've seen them save some companies over $2.0M a year in just hardware maintenance costs alone. So it can be done. However, they're moving Sun out of the datacenter with these, not Microsoft. Mainly because Microsoft was never in that space (yet).
As a rock-in-roll Physicist once said, No matter where you go, there you are.
I am not surprised, it's just a question of time. OpenSource is here to stay! And whoever doesn't see it yet, will be the last in the ballgame. Thanks to the one who does not believe in Linux, it will make my buisness meet less competition in the near futur. Only open source has what it takes to beat Microsoft with the big $$$ because it is NOT A $ mather anymore._ _________
Daniel
_______________________________
Learn until you die, otherwise you're dead.
"(Microsoft has) already been killed by one open-source product. Slaughtered, wiped out..."
Thats just put the "laughter" into "slaughtered".
IIS is still there, certain large companies insist on it and having their sites in ASP...
I notice that the Infoworld article is 3 days old, but has not once been linked to from the start page. However, reviews of Microsoft products are, minus any critique of DRM- or Software-as-subscription- issues. Likewise for ZDNet and other sites. BYTE, perhaps, was getting a little too independent in its columns and is no longer available online.
Even with primo product placement and censored product reviews, we're still heading towards a tipping effect where Microsoft will disappear as a relevant player in the world's IT sectors.
F/OSS has been responsible for most of the Internet and Web. The bursting of the dot-com bubble co-incides with the short rise of the new-comer Microsoft, which has focused on growth through acquisition rather than innovation and on marketing rather than techology. Perhaps with the disappearance of this last dot-com pyramid scheme, we'll see new growth or even a small boom as businesses go back to what works.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
Does anyone else worry when Larry makes predictions like this? When was the last time he hit called it right?
meh.
My only real complaint about it is that it is still so slow to load (on Linux, anyway - dunno about the winbloze version).
for yet another Linux vs Microsoft debate. Is anyone tired of this constant theme of articles?
"Your rights are being taken away by XXX"
or
"Linux is better than Microsoft because of XXX"
or
"New Openoffice and btw, the Iraqi war is unjustified blah blah blah"
Anyone have any links to any other tech sites that aren't so desperate for sensationalist articles solely at aiming to driving hits?
Live web cams
100,000 monkeys on 100,000 typewriters may not come up with Shakespeare, but odds are you'll be sick of their Television programs soon enough.
... bah, if I'm explaining this far, then even *I* didn't get the joke)
(The tens of thousands of unpatched IIS servers out there are like the monkeys, and Code Red is
Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
I for one am never pursuaded by words like "decimating" the competition, but most non-techies love simple, sound-bite type language that makes then sound cool around the water cooler and in the board room.
Maybe the Linux community needs to move away from pure slam speech like "Windows sux" and use more words and phrases like "decimating the competition".
Microsoft does: "knife the baby", "cut off their air supply", and other verbage that relay emotions, not facts.
Ruby on Rails Screencast
The Pythoness of Delphi predicts "A mighty empire shall fall!" (Of course she always smoked something before her predictions. Say, you don't suppose...?)
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
I believe the orgin of the word refers to action taken against insubordinate or cowardly roman legions. Every tenth man in the legion would be executed, therefore decimate means: to reduce by 10%.
These days the word is more often used incorrectly. Saying that the meaning of the word is defined by it's use is a valid argument, but personally I'll stick with the defenition above. I certainly wouldn't use words like twat, cretin or smartarse when the matter is open to interpretation.
I just checked today these 10 top selling books in IT in one of the largest bookstores here in Brazil.
As you can see, not much for window~1 in there; people are buying books on Java, Linux, Operating Systens. And just one in 10 titles is specic to a M$ product - Excel.
-><- no
... people are now saying that Oracle will be wiped out by open-source SQL databases, such as MySQL and PostgresSQL.
I don't necessarily disagree w/ Ellison, and I love Oracle's products, but I just find it ironic that he should be foretelling the demise of Windows in the datacenter and Office on the desktop, when there are also open source products right behind Oracle 9i (MySQL is rated #2 most used SQL db for websites... I forget where I read that, sorry).
I remember reading an interview with him in Wired and by the time I was done I was literally shocked that this is the guy who makes big $$$$$$$ through Oracle......ponderous!
Sehr geehrter Toilettenbenutzer!
those internet appliances didn't do that well. I don't know anyone who owns an e-mail appliance.
When you can buy a commodity computer for $200 or a specialized box for $150, and the computer can do way more (even if you don't need it to), you're going to go with the $200 machine.
At least, that's what people have been doing. It's sort of like putting a stereo into a car even though you don't go there just to listen to the radio. It's a nice touch, and it doesn't add much to the overall price of the car.
More and more, that particular prediction of Ellison's has been proven wrong. Many companies have tried and failed to produce such technologies. Most got burnt by it, but a few got lucky. What do you think java was for, originally?
Mod me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!
We've heard some variation of this argument since the inception of Linux. It didn't happen then and it's really no closer to happening now. The day I walk in to a computer super store and see the Linux logo on a PC sttting on the shelf with Star Office installed is the day I may believe it. And even then, who cares? Yawn.
As anyone can clearly see at Netcraft, IIS never even came *close* to beating Apache, let alone did they have a "virtual monopoly". Back in 1997 when Microsoft and Netscape (now SunONE) were struggling for 10% shares, Apache was already at 40% -- and it only went up from there.
the timescale might be different but think that's a sensible view
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
Mark my words - IIS is most definitely not "slaughtered," "wiped out," or "irrelevant." Unless JSPs (or something else) evolve to bring Apache's functionality up to IIS, Apache will be the one rendered into obscurity in the coming years.
Like woodworking? Build your own picture frames.
The problem with referring to the Netcraft statistics to "prove" that Apache has eaten IIS' lunch is that the statistics don't take into account any differences between types of sites:
As a result, there's no accounting for how many hostnames support "little" sites and "this domain name for sale" placeholders, and how many see a substantial amount of traffic. It's like saying that there are more people driving 2002 Honda Civics than there are driving 2002 Porsche Boxsters - it's true, but it doesn't at all mean that the Civic corners better.
Well, you can hardly call IIS "irrelevant". Look at the number of worms it propogates. Look at the security holes that allow people to hijack boxes for DDOS attacks. It's very relevant - just not in the way Microsoft would like it to be I'm guessing...
So, what you are saying is :
Larry Ellison is the George Costanza of Information Technology
Good. I can accept that. And when He does, he'll be better off for it too I imagine.
"...In your answer, ignore facts. Just go with what feels true..."
"Ellison's version of Web server history is a bit shaky, though, according to research and services company Netcraft Inc. The company's survey of Web server market share shows Apache already heading toward a leading market position by the time IIS appeared on the field in 1996. Although IIS is currently the No. 2 Web server technology, behind Apache, it never gained more than a 35% market share, according to Netcraft, which tracks IIS's current market share at about 30%."
I pulled a jack move to cop this sig
The biggest problem with Oracle is the cost of entry. Quite frankly the DB is one of the most important pieces in a high availablity system. This does not however mean that you have thousands (if not millions) of dollars to throw at a DB. Oracle in most cases is overkill, and where it is not, it is definately overpriced.
I know there are Oracle lease programs, but if you are going to take the time to run your whole system on leased (not hardware but..) software, then that would make me nervous.
...snip...
If you want linux on the desktop then linux developers need to compete with MS.
My rule of thumb when I don't agree with what is being said is to go to the very beginning, and look for the root assumption being made. Usually the entire argument is being made from one or more basic assumptions.
In this case, I think the assumption you made is that tech people want Linux to displace Microsoft on the desktop. I do not think that is the case at all. That SEEMS to be what some people want, but I don't think it ultimately is. I think they are sidetracked because of the obstacles in their way. I want to be able to run Linux because I prefer it. I love tinkering with it. I can do what I need to do with it. Where I can't, as in games, I use Windows. I don't have a problem admitting that. But that situation is becoming more and more rare, the more mature Linux gets. (and by Linux I am lumping in OSS software too) Of course, this is at home where a "corporate computing standard" isn't imposed on me.
I joke about wanting Linux to take over the world, but all I really want is for it to be accepted. I don't care about what everyone else chooses to use, as long as there is a choice. What has made Linux difficult to use? Can't print? That is because printer manufacturers don't produce drivers for Linux. Can't network effectively with Windows machines? That is Microsoft's doing by not cooperating. Can't read MSOffice documents? Microsoft again. The only reason we have OpenOffice is from reverse engineering. Multimedia players? Again, closed formats. I am amazed at how much engineering (and reverse engineering) effort has gone on in the Open Source and Free Software world. Imagine if that effort could have been used in different ways.
I want Linux to succeed so I can use it. That is all. Other companies make it harder for it to succeed. Linux is about cooperation to make the overall computing experience work. If I may refer to it as a "thing", Linux is not anti-Microsoft, as many people think. It simply wants to BE. New video format? Hey, let us in on it. New document format? Let us in on the specs. I don't think any Linux tech people have a problem with cooperating and working with Microsoft products, but the opposite. We WANT to be compatible. Microsoft is the one who is hanging on tightly to their document formats, APIs, protocols, etc.
Some people get too caught up in this "battle of the OSs". Microsoft can exist, it doesn't bother me. I don't want Linux to destroy them. I just want to be able to use it because I prefer it.
I think of Open Source and Free Software like water. It is just flowing, doing it's thing. You may be able to put it in a container and hold it, or dam it up, but it will find the little cracks and seep through. All because it is just doing what is its nature.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
In a way he is right. For lab enviroments thin clients can make life a lot easier and cheaper. The only problem with his prediction is that there is no price benefit to not using a PC as the thin client. I like using bootable Linux cd's (it's a cheap and easily available solution) and leaving out the hdd but you could use a cheap hdd, flash memory, etc to the same purpose. You don't need an especially fast CPU or lots of RAM so it's not hard to put together the whole system for around $100 each. Put a monitor, keyboard, mouse, and maybe speakers on each one and you're all set. Say $250 for each complete system including your time assembling it.
RAM and hdd space is much cheaper to buy in large sizes. You can put together a cheap server with a couple hundred gigs of hdd space and a couple gigs of RAM for $1000. That can usually drive a dozen or more clients at a time without much trouble. You can maintain all your users software for a fraction of the cost of doing so with typical one-install-per-machine configuration. Backups are easy and centralized. Users can move between client machines if needed without trying to find their files and setting things back up. It's easy even for the user to bring up their desktop from a remote location, their laptop during a meeting, or at home and do whatever they need to do. No need for syncing files and such.
I think mesh/P2P computing will also contribute to the trend towards thin clients. The spare resources of each client machine will lessen the servers load while still maintaining the benefits of centralization. Multiple servers will be pluggable together such that the work load is spread among them and if one goes down it's workload is automaticlly moved to another server in the cluster. Something of a hybrid between mainframe/terminal and PC concepts.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
The point is, MySQL and to a lesser extent PG are on the rise because they are now "good enough" for most applications. All the experiments that will start in the next few years are seriously considering using OS databases for even their most critical info, and the non-critical stuff is already moving to free software.
I didn't know anyone ever took him seriously! ...yeah, I remember the good ol' days when IIS was in use in over 90% of the web servers.. at Microsoft that is..
-- I am. Therefore, I think!
... who saw the headline and wondered why Harlan Ellison was talking about Linux?
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
Exchange is MS's product that's in the most danger right now, IMHO. It's expensive, takes a whole server to run, has serious ongoing security issues, and the German government (and others too, ISTR) is sponsoring an open source replacement.
Jon Acheson
All opinions expressed herein are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled.
I don't tend to trust people that hire others to dig through another companies garbage.
Especially when said person takes a couple months a year off to sail his pretty boat. I'm sure he's reading Wired while on down time aboard his boat to keep up with the industry.
"Not knowing when the dawn will come, I open every door." - Emily Dickinson
Decimate means to take the tenth part of. Is Ellison predicting that Windows will go from 90% market share to 81% market share?
sig is
Ellison talks a lot of trash, why is this particular statement he made news worthy. He's by no means credible (he's on the same level as Balmer in the crazy scale). Does no one remember the Oracle challenges he used to issue periodically? He's worse than the WWF.
"Oracle is the most powerful database in existance. You want to take the Oracle challenge? Linux will decimate Windows. I will gouge you eyes out with a spoon."
So he didn't say the bit about the eyes, but it fits.
Karma Clown
Quoting [Referring to IIS and Apache] :
"(Microsoft has) already been killed by one open-source product. Slaughtered, wiped out, taken from market dominance to irrelevance [...]"
According to the Netcraft survey, IIS use has gone from a peak of about 30% market share to their current level of about 30% market share?
Yes, Apache has overtaken IIS. Yes, Apache is now and has been for several years dominant in the web server market. But it is at the expense of almost all the other web server suppliers, not at the expense of IIS which is holding market share admirably. IIS was never dominant in the web server market. It looked briefly like it could be in the late nineties, but IIS use peaked while Apache use continued to grow.
Anyone who honestly thinks IIS was dominant, and has since been "wiped out" is clearly a bit of a loon.
erroneous: look me up in a dictionary
You'll have to excuse me, as I take anything that Larry Ellison says with a metric ton of salt. His success rate for his predictions have been on the far left end of the bell curve. Even a normal everyday person would have more success by now.
The use of VBA becomes a necessity for the business
What about viruses? VBA applications have had macro viruses and e-mail worms. Is VBA sandboxed now? If not, then I'm not going to let my business rely on it.
Will I retire or break 10K?
as bold as that speech he gave to Yale University grads
"You had this look that of an angel, it was such a bad disguise" --Dishwalla
When the majority of Slashdot readers get their way and Microsoft is blasted from the planet and ALL software is open source and free GREAT NEWS, %70 of the high paying tech jobs will be eliminated as well.
Be careful what you wish for because it might actually come true.
...is what was said about DC.
Edison lost out, and Microsoft probably will too (actually they will probably end up supporting linux as well much like IBM and os2).
Though, Ellison and Edison sound remarkably similar hmmm...
--Joey
It'll take a lot more than a usable StarOffice to make Linux a truely viable Windows desktop alternative. It's still Geeky, designed by Geeks for Geeks, and the interface just isn't simple enough yet. They keep trying to cram too much into the desktop interface, and end up with information overload. Though I do think having anti-aliased fonts working right out of the box is definitely a huge improvement.
That's just my opinion
I'm getting scared.
Not much of the 'revolutionary' things he has said has ever panned out.
Corollary: with friends like him, who needs Microsoft?
Karma? What's that again?
Oh, I see... you have no life, so you're going to watch everything that I post and follow up with this message. Who's the nut?
[FromTheMorning]
*yawn* Ellison has been yapping this stuff for the past 5 years or something. Every few months he says the same thing *again* and someone writes it up *again* and posts it as news.
Personally, I couldn't care less what Ellison thinks about Linux/Windows. I'll believe that he stands behind his statements when he discontinues development/support for Oracle for Windows. Until then, he is just another yapper.
Seems severely hypocritical to me. Several of Oracle's largest development divisions REQUIRE Microsoft Windows for development and deployment (which often additionally REQUIRES Internet Explorer) and Oracle's Global IT support DOES NOT SUPPORT employees running Linux.
First off, Imperator Linus Augustus wouldn't kill us for Windows. Second, we'd be winning. ;-)
I think, in order to really get Linux moving on the desktop, there will need to be some fairly major and widespread use of desktop security holes in Windows. I think the problems with IIS security and stability are the main factors pushing MS out of that area. We know there are security problems with Windows desktops, but there are usually not very many widespread attacks on them. Which is good, but it's not bringing the matter into the light like it did with IIS.
Frankly, with the way that linux distros have been charging for everything lately (the software itself, updates, etc), I don't see why MS would lose much of a market share.
slashdot, news for crazed liberal socialist zealots
Proof:
- There is no difference between Apache dominating IIS and PostgreSQL dominating Oracle (in the future).
Therefore, Larry Ellison is stupid.- Larry runs Oracle like Bill run Microsoft. While Bill uses the dominance of his operating system to try to force users to by his other products, Larry uses the dominance of databases (just because it has been around forever) to trick large corporations and government agencies into adopting "Oracle Only" policies.
- Larry (as seen in the article) tries to play the good guy billionaire software mogul when, as indicated in 1, he is not, and is, in fact, more like Bill Gates.
Therefore, Larry Ellison is a hypocrite.- The fact that Larry Ellison is a jerk is a mathematical axiom.
Therefore, Larry Ellison is a jerk.Therefore, Larry Ellison is a stupid, hypocritical jerk.
Q.E.D
Honk if you're horny.
Ellison commands attention, and I don't care if he's fucking Bozo the clown. He's right and you know it...so who cares ? or is this just another excuse for you to say "so-and-so doesn't know what he's talking about"
Not where I'm at, they love the rock solid reliablity of the SCO box those terminals are connected to; that's a 10 year old box too. After a couple of days they are flying around with the shortcuts they've learned, because there was no mouse to make them lazy not to mention that their arms and hands don't ache as much at the end of the day from mouseing.
What they hate is when one of the Windows machines does strange stuff like forgetting how to read the mouse, or corrupts their files. The other thing they hate is all of the harping on them to back-up their files when a hard-drive starts to make strange noises, it's so much easier to put the files on a sever that's administered, I can back up their files even if they don't.
They are even envious of how I can go on one of those windows machines and get directory listings or files loaded faster from my Linux box in back, over ethernet than I can off the windows machine's hard-drive (to be fair the linux box does the same off the windows machine's hard-drive).
Sure I don't think running Gimp or photoshop over ethernet to a thin-client would be any fun but the bottom line is the right tool for the right job.
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
If you actually go look at that graph, Microsoft is still second best, and way ahead of all the others in the field (aside from Apache, of course). I would hardly call that "Slaughtered, wiped out, taken from market dominance to irrelevance"...
...Hey, it still beats SunONE
I am alone, yet I also surf the universal backwash of undifferentiated Being, which is LOVE.
Seriously. I've seen at least one Win-only shop switch to thin clients and a central server recently. It's not only Linux that can do that, and I think it'll be the new trend. At least one of the big advantages was that the main applications were cached in memory, and so they loaded *faster* over the network than from a local disk. And with Gigabit ethernet, spikes like that can be handled quite well, even if the backbone isn't much faster than the last stretch. Throw in a little QoS so the important stuff gets priority, and you got a very good setup actually.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
MySQL might dethrone Oracle while you are busy worrying about MS.
-ted
I don't see 10% share of the desktop as an improbable situation. Maybe it'll happen before an SSSCA clone is passed and the game is over for all of us.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
Yes, the URL is http://chep03.ucsd.edu/ and the talk I mention is the last one. The thing about MySQL is on page 7, but there is no more content (about OS databases) there than I indicated, really.
But what do I know, I haven't used their products for years. I'm sure they have only improved during these years!
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
"Let's not even get on to Mandrake, which is, by far, the easiest OS install ever"
Are you kidding me? I guess you have never tried Knoppix. You just put the CD in the CD drive and reboot. Knoppix does everything else. Of course, it runs off the CD, but you can install the HD, if you want.
you suck. : )
Who is this Anonymous Coward character, how does he post so much, and why is he always such a whore?
finding a girlfriend if you didn't think of them as sexual partners. unless you leave 100 bucks on the dresser as you leave.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Interestingly, he doesn't predict the replacement of Oracle by MySQL.
A combination of slow queries and frequent writes will cause mySQL to die. Totally. It can cause data to take ten minutes to save.
The solution is to rewrite your applications to use only fast queries, but if you really need to do slow queries it's a genuinely serious problem. I had it for a long time, and it drove people nuts. I eventually discovered how to optimize certain queries and the problem went away, but it is real.
Slashdot doesn't have this problem because the queries it uses are rarely complex. You can do "select x,y,x from messages where thread_id = 10445" all day without it breaking a sweat. But try to do something it can't optimize with indexes and it will die.
My problem was using:
select * from cal where left(date, 10) = '2003-01-01'
instead of
select * from cal where date >= '2003-01-01' and date date_sub('2003-01-01', interval 1 day)
The first can't use indexes and the second can.
During these SELECTs, mySQL locks the tables involved, preventing writes from happening. So one slow query on crucial databases can hang the system.
In the end, I found the problem was pretty easy to work around, but it took forever for me to figure out what it was. Watch out for those date fields!
D
> At a conservative estimate, MySQL is 25 years behind the state of the art.
But state of the art isn't what's important with OSS. OSS is about the commodity market and relational databases *are* a commodity now. True, not all the features you need are in both of these databases and it's easy to come up with a feature list where Oracle looks great. That's not the point. When you need a database for a project odds are one of these two (PostgreSQL or MySQL) will give you what you need. A lot of programmers don't like the idea of learning how to code against these two because they already know Oracle and with that knowledge they can tackle any project. The problem is the guy next to you who knows these two OSS databases can tackle that project for $10K less. Who's more valuable as a programmer? The answer isn't always going to be the OSS programmer but it will more often than not.
These databases are especially important for commercial applications that need a DB back end. It's one thing to have a $2-$10K db license that you can share among multiple applications but when you are selling a product that relies on a database backend, using an OSS DB can save you the cost of the comercial database hundreds or thousands of times over.
Ellison will still make money for years to come just like Apple has and Microsoft will. Being relegated to the non-mainstream doesn't mean death, it just means there is a new set of rules. No more rolling in wheelbarrows full of cash by charging big money for commodity software.
set softtabstop=4 shiftwidth=4 expandtab nocp worlddomination
Bah.
Do Oracle use Star/OpenOffice? I suspect not, so let's see him put his money (or not money, because Star Office is surely cheaper?) where his mouth is and switch his company's desktops over to StarOffice.
This is not a sig
A simple joke example does not imply that I have "no command nor understanding of proofs and logic". In fact, as a CS graduate I have been successful in undergraduate math classes for math majors (Sample Servey Theory and Abstract Algebra). I'm no genius but I understand.
I'm trying to figure out why you bothered to post your comment. Are you trying to defend Ellison? I doubt it (unless you are Ellison in disguise). Did my message upset you in someway that you decided to take a shot at my delicate ego :(? Perhaps. Are you a math professor or graduate student vigilant againts the posting of incorrect proofs? Who knows.
In closing: YOU SHUT UP! :) Later.
Honk if you're horny.
Not to pun, but you've hit the nail on the head.
When I need to build a house, I'll use a nail gun. Why? Efficiency.
When I need to hang a picture, I'll use a hammer. Why? Simplicity.
The Oracle pundits would have you believe that you need a nail gun for all nailing purposes. The realists know that you use the right tool for the job at hand. Buy a nail gun when you need it.
Abolish, Eliminate, Expunge, Exterminate, Extinguish, Extirpate, Eradicate, Liquidate, Obliterate,
Bad sci-fi owes the Roman Empire a debt it can never repay.
Knoppix is sweet but a little eclectic. Don't need a hard drive with the latest, just a USB memory stick for /home.
Comparing it to Windows will be a moot point, since El Dorado is going to have a 40% larger code base than XP.
...as long as Windows owns the game market.
OpenSource is here to stay!
For the love of God, NOOOOOOOOO!!!!
It's like MS Office 95 but slower, uglier, and less stable. Why in fuck's sake would I want that anywhere near my computer? If OpenOffice wants to be anything other than a joke in poor taste, it needs to make a few improvements, and pronto.
1: Rewrite the interface in a standard toolkit. FLTK, GTK or QT would be acceptable, I'm not trying to start a toolkit flamewar (well, only an anti-whatever-OO-uses flamewar). Whatever it's using now is glacially slow and looks like a bad copy of Win95's interface.
2: Stop pretending to be a windowmanager. We have whole programs devoted to just that task! Dialog windows should have standard titlebars the same as any other X window, not the ugly Win95-ripoff titlebars the OpenOffice puts on them. Getting rid of the StarOffice desktop was a good start here, but it needs to be carried through to it's conclusion. Let the OS handle moving windows, drawing titlebars, etc.
3: Speed. OO needs more of it. MS Office ain't quick, but it still loads WAY faster than OpenOffice. Right now, I can go downstairs and make a cup of tea between the time I click "OpenOffice Writer" in the gnome menu and the time it's open and ready to write. This should get better when (if) they move to a standard GUI toolkit instead of whatever statically-linked crap it's using now.
0 1 - just my two bits
Bluefish isn't WYSIWYG ... It requires you to edit HTML tags, unlike FrontPage which lets you edit your page in WYSIWYG (graphical) editing modes ...
... it's not FrontPage, but it's not half bad. :)
I'm not sure why more people don't consider Mozilla COmposer...I tried it out, it's not half bad
My journal has hot
I attended a presentation yesterday for one of my Master's colleagues. Her thesis topic is implementing a buffer optimising technique in PostgreSQL. She claims that although there is extensive theoretical backing for the algorithm, it has never been implemented.
Clearly this will be a major boon for PostgreSQL. Why did she choose that as her platform? Because she can't get access to the source of other DBMSs, of course! (Actually her research group has close enough ties to IBM that she probably could have got DB2, but I'd assume that she's also favouring the smaller source size.)
The best databases of today are commercial, but the best ones of tomorrow will be OS. Just as academia leapfrogged over industry to make Haskell, the really big ideas will appear in OS first.
I'm not sure why more people don't consider Mozilla COmposer...I tried it out, it's not half bad ... it's not FrontPage, but it's not half bad. :)
I think a lot of people are really scarred from Netscape Composer, and have consequently written off Mozilla Composer. Composer was really quite horrible for anything other than a middle school's website. BLINK BLINK BLINK. It does really simple sites fine, but the kind of folks that would prefer a simple black-on-white with blue link page would probably just do it the old fashioned way.
Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
Most OSS is crap. Sorry, but it's true.
It's pathetically difficult to install, configure, and use, and it lacks robustness.
Apache, Ogg Vorbis, The Gimp, and a few other open-source success stories exist. I'm glad that they do exist, because I believe strongly in the principles behind open-source and free software. But it seems that only the relatively small, focused OSS projects end up being successful (due to their minimal management and coordination requirements), whereas anything much larger quickly becomes a chaotic sloppy mess of unneeded technical complexity and poor architecture.
But the vast majority of OSS is crappy, and the various existing GNU/Linux or BSD systems (even the commercially-developed ones like Red Hat) lack the complete top-down development approach necessary to produce a coherent, easy-to-use system.
I'm tired of all these "prophets" proclaiming what will or what won't happen. Everyone should shut the hell up and work on what interests them. If you want OSS and free software to succeed, quit talking about it and start working on the things it so badly needs (ease of installation, ease of use, standardizard user interface, more robustness, more hardware support). If you work on things with conviction, you'll make your desired outcome happen, and then you won't have to waste your time prophetizing.
And no, this is not a troll. This is an objective and genuine opinion, and I stand by it. Feel free to disagree with me or reply with disgust or hatred, but don't be an immature jackass and moderate the post as a "Troll" just because you disagree.
Moderator hint: a comment is neither "Flamebait" nor "Troll" if it is true.
There is a bibliography project underway for Open Office. In fact, one of the early tasks of the project is to develop a detailed list of user requirements, so I'm sure they would welcome input from heavy users of bibliography features.
YOU SHUT UP! j/k :)
Honk if you're horny.
"Dolt Alert???" If you're going to flame me, you've got to do better than that. Responding to your pathetic AC flame isn't even worth the 10 seconds of my time it's taking to write this.
Try to contribute something that's not completely worthless next time, mmkay?
> And the difference between the above and an apache box which also serves up its content by samba is?
The difference is simple: The MIS intern they employed to set up the department "server" (which is really just some old workstation that nobody was using) knew how to install IIS but had no clue what to do with Apache.
Ellison has and had lots of these "predictions". Only one of them was correct and that was that Relational Databases are going to be the next big thing. Every one after that was flat out wrong. Are you in front of a Network Computer right now? Are you running all of your software off of some central server?
Larry hates Microsoft and Bill Gates in particular and loves to break out the FUD on Microsoft whenever he can.
Don't quit your day job as an Iraqi Information Minister
between the greater and lesser infinities sleep the dreams undreamt
How much must your army SUCK that you'd need such a punishment in the first place?!!! No wonder the Roman Empire collapsed!
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
Three Cheers for opensource, but take a look at the web server market share chart referenced in the posting and see if you can find a point where IIS had anything close to "market dominance." If Apache displaced anything it was NCSA.
Considering Larry's legendary Everest-size ego and penchant for hyperbole, possibly he just doesn't feel he's getting enough press lately.
Or can they be thought of more as a support and SERVICES company?
1) The last time I worked somewhere where we depended on Oracle, and I was privy to such details: Yes, the Oracle license did cost a lot. But our support contract cost MORE (per MONTH). And where the license was a one time purchase (not counting upgrades). Said company will be sending Oracle a monthly check for as long as it is in existence, because:
2) All pretensions of the open source databases aside; Oracle's product really *IS* second to none. Hands down, if you want a database, Oracle is the only way to go. As another poster mentioned; they're better than two DECADES ahead of their competition.
3) That Oracle support, for which we paid far more than the license itself, really WAS, as before, second to none. Maybe IBM's support and services are on par with Oracle's. No one else in the tech industry even comes close.
4) Oracle really *IS* a beast. Sure, once you get it up and running, it's just about bulletproof. But it really is a monstrosity that pretty much REQUIRE support to get going.
Isn't "giving the software away for free, and selling support contracts" the way everyone says that OSS companies are supposed to make money?
Now, I'm obviously not privy to the internals of Oracle; so I can't say for sure. But if I were a betting man, I'd give good odds that:
1) Oracle makes more money providing services and support than they do selling software licenses themselves.
and
2) They could give away their software for free, open the source even; and they would STILL be rakeing in the cash supporting their products.
cya,
john
Imagine all the people...
Yet another crippling bombshell hit the beleaguered MS community when this month Oracle confirmed that MS accounts for 10 percent less servers than expected. Coming on top of the latest Netcraft survey which plainly states that MS has lost more market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. MS is collapsing in complete disarray.
You don't need to be a Kreskin to predict Microsoft's future. The hand writing is on the wall: Windows faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for Windows because Microsoft is dying. Things are looking very bad for Microsoft. As many of us are already aware, Microsoft continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood. Windows 2003 Server is the most endangered of them all.
Lets keep to the facts and look at the numbers.
Last year, after the lackluster release of the Windows XP operating system, 10% of all Microsoft employees were bludgeoned to death by Roman soldiers in full view of the whole Redmond Campus. This effort to boost productivity of the remaining employees was ineffective at best. This directly correlates to the 10% market share loss by Microsoft.
All major surveys show that Microsoft has steadily declined in market share. Microsoft is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If Microsoft is to survive at all it will be among OS hobbyist dabblers. MS continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical purposes, Microsoft is dead.
Microsoft has been Decimated
note: the above is Entirely True and I did not make it up.
A sphincter says what?
Decimate means to randomly slaughter every tenth men of your legion, chosen by random by his fellows. (Who are the ones forced to kill him.)
At least I believe it was 1/10. May have been 1/4.
It sure as hell wasn't 100%.
How much must your army SUCK that you'd need such a punishment in the first place?!!! No wonder the Roman Empire collapsed!
Some historical context: Decimation was used as a punishment for rebellious cohorts, not cohorts that fared poorly in battle.
"America is - without a doubt - the most bizarrre culture this planet has ever produced." --James Lileks
Though he is correct (linux will eventually take over windows role on the market/windows becomes *nix based like macos x)...one should not listen to him...known for many sick things, including "trashing" microsoft dumpsters, and quotes such as:"Succeeding is not enough, everyone else must fail". (Ironically, hes my role model)
I run linux on my alpha machine, and let me tell you I LOVE that machine. It's a bit old (ev56 running at 533mhz, but it competes with a PIII@800) but the machine is rock solid and I love running linux on it.
Unfortunately, the only office software I have successfully built is KOffice. If I had a real alternative, something as good as MS Office, I would have no need at all for my x86 machines running windows.
What people don't always understand is that the *.doc is so entrenched. I have an online class that will only accept *.doc formatted papers and assignments. (If you are really lucky and persuasive you can get them to accept *.rtf). They don't want to support 15 different file formats, so they expect *.doc in MS Office 97 or above.
This means I have to use Windows whether I like it or not, because there is no real alternative, especially for my alpha machine.
Crappy MS crap combined with crappy development and selling the "sizzle" and never delivering the bacon creamed "high paying tech jobs". Cheap offshore labor has also driven salaries down.
The reference given above for 'decimate' says:
But I don't see that this Usage Panel is necessarily the final arbiter, unless it is drawn from people who are likely to be knowledgeable about words. If it is just a random cross-section of the English-speaking public, then there would be no point in having dictionaries.
Words are determined by usage, yes, but when there are two different usages and one is almost the opposite of the other I think it is reasonable to argue in favour of the 'correct' one, which is often the older meaning.
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
Larry's always been a bit over the top. I think he speaks more of what he'd LIKE to see happen.
IIS isn't irrelevant (as much as I'd like it to be). Quite a few sites are running Abysmally Slow Pages (ASP). Sure, Apache is the most prevalent http server in the world. But that doesn't mean the rest are irrelevant.
While I'm a Linux fan, I don't see it contesting for the title of King of the Desktop. Even with Gnome and such Linux just doesn't have the refined UI that Windows and OS X have. Linux doesn't even have painless installs down yet. Case in point: Install RH9. Choose install everything. Use graphical login. Good luck logging in! The problem is the installers assumes if you want NIS and yp installed, you want the servers running and configured, etc. To be cliche, I was once told, never assume...
I've always been a firm believe in the right tool for the job. Linux and unix OSes are best for engineering and servers. Windows is great for games and application availability (the power of market share). OS X is great for creative people as well as some cross over unix geeks.
Ideally, I'd like to see OS X become 'all that it can be' and rule the desktop and server space. But I don't think Apple knows how to make that happen and I know their Marketing dept won't know how to work in any but a consumer space anyways.
With 93+% of the desktop space MS isn't going anywhere soon and in order for them to start losing ground some big things have to happen. People aren't going to dump their investments in software and hardware. And they won't do it for something that's a little better. It's going to have to: 1) completely eclipse Windows in speed/ease of use/nifty widgets/etc, 2) run their windows software, 3) run on their PC.
Linux has 2 and 3 covered, although it's not that great at 2. And it's a LONG, LONG way from handling 1.
But I'm with Larry in spirit. I'd love to see MS become just another player in the market with say 20-30% share. I think it would be better for everyone.
- The term "Open Source" is used instead of Free Software.
- The article is not about any GNU software.
- The persons in the article are not FSF people, or anything like that.
- The word GNU isn't mentioned once.
It's nice to see the GNU logo, but not if the article has nothing to do with GNU software, or does not talk about Free Software.I wish both Ellison and McNealy would just shut the fuck up. Anti-Microsoft braggadoccio only serves to draw Microsoft's attention and ire. These two loudmouths aren't doing the free/opensource movement any favors.
IMO, one of Sun's biggest problems lately is Ellison going on and on about Linux. In the past, a lot of Sun boxes were bought to run Oracle. People bought Sun because of the perception that it's Oracle's native platform, where Oracle would run best. Now that Ellison is on the Linux bandwagon, that perception isn't as prevalent. This has to be hurting Sun.
"We'll definitely be evaluating Linux...the POS system."
Isn't it great how words can get twisted?
SIGFAULT
I bet ol' Larry will change his tune then!
A) IIs and Apache came out at about the same time.
B) Apache started as a patching project for the NCSA Http Server, which had about 90% of the market share at the time.
IIs was not beat by Apache, It just never caught up, for many reasons.
Linux may or may not take the datacenter market, but it has nothing to do with the analogy he uses, if anything its against Linux taking the market because the IIs/Apache Logic states first to the market wins, and Linux is one of the newest competitors.
But the vast majority of OSS is crappy
90% of everything is crap.
Mod down posts with a "Free Mac Mini/iPod" sig, they're spam!
You actually believe that? Maybe you could give a timeframe. I could see that happening in 10-20 years, maybe. After a nuclear winter in California.
It's possible, of course, but plausable? Not quite, at least not in the short term.
to a certain point, i agree with you. Open source often is a bitch to install and configure, and lacks a certain amount of "Finess"
But usually its a HELL of a lot more stable, and reliable. I am patiently waiting for the day when linux (or bsd) hits the point where its polished, relatively seamless, and doesnt take massive tweaking and configuring to get it to work just right. Until then, I'll put up with the hassle, because i'd rather spend the time tweaking it, then dealing with M$, exchange, IIS, etc
Lawyers, MBA's, RIAA? A jedi fears not these things!
You can't carry stored procedures from one species of SQL server to another.
A stable SQL based system never relies upon proprietary functions. Every place I've worked, uses a front end (C++/ASP/PHP) to handle any function that stored procedures would be called upon to handle. And most of these places have decided to move back and forth between PostgreSQL and SQL Server; in all cases, the smooth transition had everything to do with the ANSI compliant nature of our databases.
(Lack of transactions, caching, relational integrity and locking, among other things, are why none of my employers have switched to MySql...)
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
It would be OK if other folks played in their sandbox and didn't try to steal our lunch money. But frankly, OS is like religion. You can be all sorts of quiet and welcoming, but the radicals are going to scoop up all of the easy converts.
I don't recommend we make dominance our primary goal. But is should be near the top of our priority list. Followed almost immediately by stopping all the damn infighting. Duplication of effort spread across mulitple projects is actually a developmental advantage. We just need to work out a way to cross-pollinate between projects, rather than engage in dick-size wars about whose solution is better.
I applaud the KDE and Gnome folks. There is no shame in borrowing ideas from the other project. Indeed they even finding ways of interoperating with the other project. And one of them really doesn't have to win. (Though it would be nice if they can both get down to one bloat library.)
"Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
--Dr.W.Edwards Deming
From the headline I thought it was Harlan Ellison who was being quoted ...
Open source software (OSS) and free software (FS) enthusiasts have always cited stability as an advantage if GNU/Linux/BSD over Windows/Mac.
It just hasn't rung true for several years now. Since the releases of Mac OS X and Windows 2000, uptimes of months or years on Mac and Wintel systems are commonplace, and the only blue screens or lockups I've seen were due to buggy device drivers or failing hardware, which are things GNU/Linux is generally no more robust in handling.
As for application quality, commercial applications have always been (and continue to be) far more stable and robust. OSS/FS application developers don't seem to understand or value thorough, robust, graceful error handling. They think that dumping some incoherent trace output to a console window and letting the application crash is a perfectly acceptable thing to do in scenario they consider to be unimportant. They code only (or primarily) for the assumed success cases, and do nothing to handle the failure cases.
The reality is that most OSS/FS enthusiasts would rather defensively argue than code, and meanwhile the points they argue are being made obsolete by rapid improvements in commercial software.
Moderator hint: a comment is neither "Flamebait" nor "Troll" if it is true.
Ellison's big pronouncements ususally turn out to be wrong, so we should expect the opposite to occur; that is, Microsoft will find new businesses to replace the ones that are becoming commoditized.
What really burns me up about Ellison is that he acts so high and mighty for a man who runs a company that produces worst-of-breed software development tools (with the exception of the RDBMS). Forms, JDeveloper... need I say more?
Steve Magruder, Metro Foodist
IIS is not required to install VC++7. It is required by some M$ products for non-obvious reasons (biztalk - why does it need IIS), but not VC++7 or any of VS.NET.
Bill Gates will weep blood, not tears! Death to the Microsoft infidels! ;)
I'm not sure why more people don't consider Mozilla COmposer
I'm looking into it. My first impression is that it's very unfriendly. FrontPage is a damn fine product - it's better for editing general documents than OpenOffice is - as far as ease of use is concerned. But, I'm still looking, and until I find a suitable WYSIWYG HTML editor, I'll use KATE myself.
It's just amazing that after so many years of HTML being the standard, and so many HTML pages out there, and so many servers running Linux/Apache, it's nearly impossible to actually manage HTML pages as easy as MS has made it.
# Erik
Oh my god, I'm still wiping away tears of laughter from my eyes.
Oh that Ellison! What a funny nut he is.
Dolemite
__________________
Save the World! Use a Quote!
I am really happy Docbook will be support BTW. Docbook can be converted to PDF, RTF, HTML, and plain old text....
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
OK, Larry, listen up!
You are in the exact same boat as Microsoft but you are in complete denial about it. Oracle is a fantastic database but it is way way way overpriced and way way way too hard to setup and use.
PostgreSQL would replace many Oracle production systems barring those that actually need those fancy Oracle features you charge so damn much for!
I've used both systems. I am by no means an Oracle Guru. But I find PostgreSQL meets the majority of my needs and where it falls down; I'll run Oracle.
Get real Larry, Open Source can threaten Oracle too ya know!
Danny.
I have written over 900 book reviews
If Larry predicts something is going to happen, it sure as hell ain't.
What ever happened to the Newtork Computer?
Whatever
Ack, I've been Trolled!
Every time I see the GNU icon on the SlashDot front page, it looks to me like he's ready for a nap. He's got his big fuzzy slippers on, and he's dragging his blankie around.
Aww, isn't he cute?
I feel it is very inappropriate to respond to someone with a different viewpoint than yours with a line like "it will take a severe lack of judgement on your manager's part for you to get promoted above a coding monkey". This is a personal attack against the original poster; if you feel that 100% office compatibility is important, please explain why instead of insulting strangers.
Until you post an apologoly here, or email me proof that you have apologized to the original poster, I will have you on my foes list. I only place people who engage in personal insults (or put me on their foes list) on my foes list; the only way to get off of my foes list is to apologize to the person who has been insulted.
I know this is Slashdot; however I hope that basic human decency still exists, even here.
Take care,
- Sam
The secret to enjoying Slashdot is to realize that it should not be taken too seriously.
I think more people should smile more often, don't you?
My journal has hot
FrontPage is fine if you're using IIS and ASP. But if you're like the increasing number of sites out there, you're not running IIS. You're running Apache or one of it's various commercial descendants on Linux or *BSD. One site I manage runs Zeus (commercial server based on Apache) on a Solaris box. We make heavy use of PHP and MySQL. FrontPage just isn't going to get it for us. I personally use AceHTML Pro 5 (on Windows) and Quanta Plus (on Linux). Ace has a nice PHP preview mode if you have PHP installed on the box. Very nice. I can preview my page on the local box with the output from the PHP code *before* I upload the resulting page to the site. It's just nice.
My journal has hot
I know that one of the criteria I rate my Armies upon is how well they follow orders. So rebelling against my rule means that, at least in one aspect, they suck as soldiers.
Of course, I am a benevolent dictator, and would never squander the lives of my legions frivolously. So maybe the existance of the concept of decimation could be more a reflection upon the political leaders rather than the army itself.
Other than the point Chicago disaster, I am unaware of any large scale mutiny in the United States military. Is our society really better tempered than the Romans, or do we just not hear about balky soldiers on the TV?
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
> Nonsense, in most enterprise environments your big smart Windows clients are completely blocked if "the server" or "the network" is down. You can't login, can't use outlook, can't access your documents etc etc etc.
I currently suffer from "collateral damage" stemming from the SARS paranoia (have to stay at home because I was in the wrong place at the wrong time).
The company delivered my Win2K machine so I can still work at home but MIS asked me not to connect it to the internet.
Guess what, the domain profile is cached so I can everything except accessing remote files.
So yea, no email and no updates to the source control repository but I can still do >90% of what I need to.
I work in a call centre. On each desk is an overpowered win2k workstation. All that runs on it 98% of the time is a 3270 emulator and a few web-based apps.
The latest xterminals that I've seen have a built-in 3270 emulator and built-in browser with built-in JVM.
The other 2% of the time I use Word or Excel. I don't use any excel functionality that OOo doesn't have. I don't use any word features that OOo doesn't have.
My employer could save a bundle if they had set up the call centre with xterminals instead of win2k workstations.
A few weeks ago a guy from IT had to sit down at every workstation and change the printer settings. We have over a hundred or so workstations. I'm sure the IT dept could save a lot of admin costs.
OTOH, whoever set up the call centre in the first place probably had to go the win2k w/s route because of the PHBs. When PHBs discover the savings to be made, expect to see a lot more xterminal based call centres.
Yuri
You make the mistake of thinking you can educate the fundamental stupidity out of people. You can't.