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Working Around Bad Luck on the Resume?
Dodger asks: "A year ago I was laid off from my job after 2 1/2 years, shortly after the product I was working on shipped. Later that year, a company moved me 1500 miles from Texas to California, to start working on a promising project, just to have the plug pulled by the corporation that funded it five weeks later, which resulted in another layoff. Now, there's a period of job seeking followed by a five week period of employment, followed by the current job seeking period on my resume. When the companies I interview with ask about that situation I simply explain, while trying not to whine or complain. What do other Slashdot readers do to make 'bad luck' (or bad employer choices) look less bad on their resume, and sound less bad in interviews?"
fake a longer period
If the person interviewing you is a white coder who reads Slashdot tell them your job was outsourced.
If anyone knew, they would probably be working rather than reading slashdot.
.. when asked about the short periods just point it at the interviewer and tell him you don't like people prying into your personal life.
Just falsify it! Every other bastard does...
And during interview tell the truth that you were laid off. People understand the situation
I believe every employer appreciates a bit of honesty.
Rock that crushes, Paper & Scissors that don't matter.
Lie.
No, really, just be honest like you already have been. The people interviewing you are human too, and they can understand bad luck like anyone else. Just put your best qualities far enough out there and layoffs like this shouldn't even be a factor to the interviewer.
Perl - $Just @when->$you ${thought} s/yn/tax/ &couldn\'t %get $worse;
When they ask questions of prior jobs that were unsatisfactory, simply yell "That's none of your concern, you insensative clod!"
Setec Astronomy
Its not worth explaining it.....
Shrug and laugh about it. Attitude counts for a lot.
Just tell the interviewer that "shit happens". They'll understand. Worked for me!
but be positive ... Don't whine or pout. Just explain the situation, highlight any positives and then try to steer the focus back on the better parts of your resume.
If they ask about it, just do what you're doing now. Explain the situation to them and they'll probably understand, if they don't well you probably wouldn't want to work their anyway (well actually if they don't understand then they probably don't layoff people and I guess you would want to work their, oh well.)
...to bond with my fellow inmates.
You shouldn't just be sit around while you are unemployed. You should always be keeping your skills polished and up-to-date. Then you will have something to tell them. It is best if you can account for all of your time while unemployed.
Step #1:
;)
Get a job. ANY JOB. Showing you have a job indicates that you are a "go getter", willing to do what it takes. Trust me.
Step #2:
Hit the Pavement. When a job in your field opens up, even if it is a step down from your current pay grade, take it.
Step #3:
If your field is networking, start doing networks for churches/schools/etc. for free. Include it on your resume. If coding, get into an open source project. If business or law, go to hell.
Those will drastically help you reinforce the idea that you are not lazy, just unfortunate.
Besides, so what if a project fell flat because someone else pulled the plug? You took a chance on being part of it; sounds like a good resume item to me.
I'd have a personalized plate on my car, but "toxic bachelor" won't fit into 7 letters.
You weren't dismissed in spite of your project successfully shipping. You were disposed of because your project shipped. It's not uncommmon where moronic managers treat developers like construction crews. Hire when the work picks up and let go when the work is done. Most managers are too dim to understand the difference between skilled and unskilled labour.
Your pizza just the way you ought to have it.
...that you got fired for looking at goatse at work
Reminds me of a funny Dogbert strip:
Always put impressive but impossible to verify jobs on your resume.
Employer: So Mr. Dogbert, it says here that you worked as a senior spy for the CIA.
Dogbert: Yes, and I was told to kill anyone who asks for details about it.
You won't sound like whining, and trust me, a lot of people here will tell a lot worse horror stories. Probably the people interviewing you have worse horror stories than that. Even I do, and mine aren't nearly that bad.
;)
So, don't sweat it. If they ask tell the truth. It helps if the truth is "well, during my periods of unemployment I have been keeping my skills up to date, and have been working on X projects to keep me busy".
That's it dude, trust me.
Lemure, wtf! Don't you mean Lemur?
With your "knowledge" of 50 programming languages and dozen operating systems, not to mention your ability to network 60 Xbox's, which ironically, are their prerequisites anyways. :p
If you are good, and will be able to prove you are highly qualified in the interview, you can tell the truth. If you're only so-so, lie.
Employers want to know how to get hold of your previous management, too, and pointing out that they're also not there any more tends to help.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
robin williams did it, so shall u. power into your hands!
A lot of people have had jobs that they don't talk about. Pick one or two jobs that have you had good references from put them on. Then say that you were studying in the gaps.
If your referees can confirm you have the skills required for the job, you'll have a solid chance.
It'll be worth it in the end. Just doin't hesitate to tell the truth and when/if you get the job, you'll be far better off. Lying will only make them question you and give them a good reason not to employ you.
-N
I've nothing to say here...
From plausible to absurd:
I was spending time with my family
Extended vacation
Self-education/Wanted to learn something new
I was writing a book
Home renovation/improvment
Spiritual retreat in the desert
Creating and failing with dot-com startup
Using exfoliation to remove tattoo
Hunted down Steve Bartman to "express my feelings"
Take your pick.
I'd be frank about it. It's a fact of life in today's market place that employment comes and goes quickly. While brief stints of employment may have counted against you three or more years ago, a reasonable hiring manager will recognize that you're a victim of the current economic situation. Just don't present yourself as a victim; being positive about it is the best course.
I've had literally three companies go out of business on me, and one company I ethically could not work for (owner was trying to bilk millionaires out of investment cash) in the last 3.5 years. So 3.5 years, 4 companies.
One recruiter I talked to started the conversation saying "I know the job market recently is what's to blame for your spotty employment" and then only ten minutes later said "My client is looking for someone who doesn't jump from job to job so much," so even someone who acknowledges the reason for your problems can very quickly forget it and start thinking you're a job jumper.
So how did I solve this problem? I simply grouped all the jobs I worked for in the past 3.5 years as bullet items under a single 3.5-year job of Database Architect Consultant.
This helps a lot, because consultants are supposed to have multiple employers (it doesn't hurt that I've also done some consulting work during this time).
The problem then is that when you talk to companies, they assume you want to continue consulting. So begin the interview with "I've been doing W-2 consulting, and I really want the stability and long-term relationships I can get with a full-time job."
It's really an interesting perception that people get when they look at a resume with many short-term jobs on it. They just can't get over the fact that it may be completely not your fault and they still somehow blame you.
You need to understand this psychology and then mask that fact from them (for their own good!). Otherwise they will end up hiring some lamer who happened to work for a company that lasted a lot longer than your companies even though said lamer isn't as qualified as you.
fifth sigma, inc.
It sounds like you're doing the right thing.
As a hiring manager in a software company let me tell you, you're situation doesn't look bad, assuming it's exactly as you tell it. If I bring someone in for an interview, and they tell me what you've been through, I'd be more likely to empathize with their situatition rather than hold it against them. So, just tell the truth.
The one thing that might be a problem is getting to the interview. You may need to do a bit of work on your cover letter to make it plain that the funding was cut rather than you losing the job because of cause.
One other thing - you may not want to include a 5 week job on your resume. Unless you gained a lot of important job experience in 5 weeks, I'd be likely to write the entire thing off. Since resume space is limited, you may want to include a former job that is more relevant to the position you are applying to.
"I was basically unlucky. I got two jobs on the cusp of the companies shutting down, one of which moved me out of state. Neither had anything to do with my job performance; note that the companies disappear on the same date. Instead, please look at my resume from before the dot com bubble made hiring practices frequently unethical."
StoneCypher is Full of BS
... by getting interviews in the first place.
- It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -
I think the best thing that you could do is to expand your portfolio in any way posible. If your an artist do some medium sized projects that show of the range of work you can do. A programer work on some usefull applications, shareware, or even freeware. You should also update and work on your resume and cover letter constantly.
I have had some people swear that online job seach engines work great, but most management would rather have you show up on their door step with your resume and portfolio, of course in a suite and tie.
And if you can acomplish all with out your thumb up you ass while crying about not having a job then everything should work out.
And if that fails work at the local tanning salon like i do !
- MOSKIE
If they ask, explain why. It shouldn't be a big problem - if you don't make anything of it and calmly explain it, they shouldn't either. If it still worries you that much, make your resume self-explanitory, so that it's easy for employers to pick up on the reasons. Even if it's as simple as:
"Project cancelled, entire team (~20 people) laid off!"
Contact information for somebody else who was there (or is still there) should give them a reference to check if they otherwise don't believe you.
Instead of a resume, write a qualifications brief, basically a resume in reverse. You list the skills you have followed by the experience you have doing it, then round dates to nearest year i.e.:
...
Code Monkey--Typing C+ at random to make code. Microsoft, 1997-99
Comment Proofreader--Read and corrected comments written in UNIX code, IMB, 1992-2000
Caffine Supervisor--etc, etc, etc
If you open your answer with this phrase and also indicate that you have good references from your leads/managers, you won't need to go into greater detail unless asked. This allows you to accentuate the positive and also lets you lead into your stronger qualifications:
"The gap's there because the company had bad luck and the contract disappeared. I can give you references from my ex-boss telling you more about it. He was also the guy managing me when I came up with improvement ABC that saved the company XYZ dollars. Let me tell you more about how we tested it..."
"Prepare for the worst - hope for the best."
Now, there's a period of job seeking followed by a five week period of employment, followed by the current job seeking period on my resume.
Shrug sheepishly and say, "My 'acting' career just didn't pan out."
Opinions on the Twiddler2 hand-held keyboard?
I don't understand why in the US it is such an issue with having a gap in your resume? When I was 25 I quit my job in Australia and spent a full year travelling, living off my savings going through Asia/India/Europe. I told this to people from the US and they were horrified? How will you explain this to employers, they said? I tell them the truth, I decided to take a year off and travel.
Here in Australia this is quite common and perfectly acceptable, also in europe it's no big deal many people over there do this.
So if I lived in the US and I say I decided I didn't want to work because I had saved enough money to live on and I wanted to travel/write the american novel/sit at home and play video games/whatever, exactly why should an employer care?
Same applies for periods of unemployment, why does a gap matter?
Just tell it as it is. You are currently unemployed, due to layoffs in your previous company. A rational employer should thus be able to deduce that you might still be talented, as corporate layoffs are often somewhat random. If your potential employer is not rational, you don't want to work there anyway. Being unemployed even has a bonus when applying for jobs. You can start at once, and you are desperate...
Just include a line in your resume under your 5.5 weeks employment. E.g.
That's really o.k. Employers will understand and will look to your previous experience.
Honesty is always good.
Tell them you had to take an extended leave of absence due to a death in your family. If they try to verify this, kill a family member.
"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
I would take the first 2 sentences you wrote and speak those words as a response if the question comes up during the interview.
I am about to face unemployment starting next Monday and have something similar on my resume.
I had 2 years of QA experience with increasingly technical and detailed responsibilities followed by a move into development for a year, then I transferred to the Japanese office to provide technical assistance here. I was placed in the QA department and essentially became the technical backbone of a technically inept QA group. As QA is very low priority in Japan, these groups are typically staffed with people who may not have any technical experience. Also, the QA procedural requirements in this group (company-wide) is not as technically deep as the QA group in which I performed the first two years of my employment.
As the years passed, I eventually moved into the role of QA manager, but QA manager is still considered to be far below the rank of even a beginning junior developer. This means that in my future job search, I have to prove that not only am I not technically stymied by my QA label, nor am I to be pigeonholed into a QA management role. I am interested in moving back into development or even an FAE-type role interfacing with customers.
I'm doing what I can, passing the Level-2 Japanese Language Proficiency Test and brushing up on my assembly programming, not to mention setting up a heterogeneous wireless 802.11g network consisting of a Win2000, Linux, and FreeBSD machines.
In interviews I try to highlight these technical things. But I also try to start out the interview by asking the interviewers what they are looking for and write down those points. I then repeat those requirements back to them with a description of my experience that is appropriate to the requirement.
I have been pwned because my
I've been both employed and done consulting off and on over the past several years, so when I'm not employed I just say that I'm between engagements. My consulting 'engagements' (often for undisclosed clients) extends over the entire period, so I don't have periods of unemployment. I may be working, I may not - who's to know.
The best thing to do would to simply explain to them that the man's trying to hold you down. Also, that you'll program for food.
Photo Aspect -- an open, free, J2EE & JBoss photoalbu
Include on your resume a notation that the position was eliminated due to unfavorable market conditions or whatever. Be truthful, though; but that doesn't seem like a problem in this instance.
Five weeks though is really short, and such a stint doesn't really contribute to your knowledge, skill, attitude or temperament. Nor would it give time for that employer to get to know you, so using them as a reference wouldn't really be optimal. You might consider just leaving it off. If during an interview you're asked what you did during your time off, you can bring it up (or not) as a short term project you worked on (still being accurate though).
And you're not alone having such experiences, or looking for work at the moment.
Good luck!!
Now, there's a period of job seeking followed by a five week period of employment, followed by the current job seeking period on my resume.
:)"
Explain, candidly: "Who knew you couldn't support yourself by bloging and posting comments to Slashdot wouldn't pay? By the way, I have another Slashdot comment coming up soon, stay tuned. Subscribe now and I'll let you read it!
Opinions on the Twiddler2 hand-held keyboard?
... just tell them, " I'm glad you brought this up, and even happier you read /., because they actually posted my submission on this very topic and an hour later I had excellent karma "
-- I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous
I avoided the whole dotcom thing and stuck with my current uber-employer. As a result, they worship the ground upon which I walk, pay me accordingly and my resume glows in the dark like a diamond.
What do you mean diamonds don't glow in the dark?
OK, OK. Radioactive diamonds, or something.
--- Ban humanity.
When we were interviewing for a new Computer Services manager at school, we liked to see that people had held jobs for long periods of time. 5 weeks is not that incredibly long to be unemployed in the IT field, so if you just left it off, I don't think most employers would care too much. If they ask what you did, tell them about the other stuff you did during that time while you weren't working (you do have hobbies, don't you??).
I'm in the process of trying to hire some developers, right now, and I've hired lots in the past. From my perspective, telling the truth is the best strategy for you to use; most people who are hiring right now understand how turbulent the market has been in the past few years and won't hold this against you. It's still a tough market though and the best thing that you can do is work your hardest to be the absolute BEST you can be. Spend your time that you're unemployed studying in your field and preparing to really blow people away when you do land an interview. Don't waste time feeling sorry for yourself or worrying about little things like some gaps in employment - just go out and kick ass as best you can and you'll do just fine.
Lying can also give them grounds to fire you at a later date.
One technique that can be applied to many job interviews is to turn the situation around and make them try to sell the job to you. If you have a history of being let go by former employers stress that it's important that your next job be with a stable, successful company and ask pointed questions about the new company. Let them try to convince you that the new company is respectable and trustworthy. Then they'll feel like they've invested something in you by convincing you.
Don't lie, period. Just tell the truth. Employers are looking for hard working, intelligient, and honest people.
Bryan
Skills get stale when you take a long leave. Or some people may see it as flaky.
Photo Aspect -- an open, free, J2EE & JBoss photoalbu
If the layoffs are not your fault then the employer won't care as long as you are honest regarding the reasons. Don't sound bitter, and above all, DON'T make it sound as though the layoffs were a result of poor management. If pressed for details be very discreet and non-judgemental in the response - a "The company decided that they could no longer provide work for me" sounds MUCH better than "they canned me as soon as they finished using me". I as a manager don't mind seeing a period of unemployment if it is not a result of the person's actions and with the collapse of IT jobs that's unfortunately become common.
***Blackholes are where the gods divided by zero.***
Don't mention it. If your previous emplouers are called all that they can legally say is that you did indeed work there. They can't say anything else.
I'd suggest you list the dates as... "10/2003-11/2003 (project cancelled)" to prevent the quick discard. After that, just be honest about your history and show no bitterness.
I've hired over 100 engineers. One short hop (less than 2 or 3 years) requires explaining. Two short hops get the resume tossed.
If it isn't one where a prospective employer is likely to ask for a reference then just say you were temping.
The fact that you were able to get hired twice in your proffession during the down economy is an asset not a burdon.
The fact that you were moved to CA either means you are desperate or worth a big investment. Make sure it spins good (even if it was desperation).
If the out of work periods are short enough I would take it as a good sign that you are being snapped up, not bad that you were layed off.
Don't lie. If you do anyone that has a personal reason for not liking you could possibly get HR to look into it and you could be fired for lieing on your resume.
Just remember that your against people who were likly under-employed or out of work with no short projects inbetween.
None of this is expierience (except the lieing thing) but it is what maked personal sense to me. So if someoen with actual expierence in your shoes disagrees they may be more correct then me.
Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
Have you been to America?
It's all about conformity, brother!
Now, there's a period of job seeking followed by a five week period of employment, followed by the current job seeking period on my resume.
Get the interviewer to empathize with you, by noting that we all make mistakes, now and then: "Who'd have guessed those hippies wouldn't pay me $699 for something they could get a better implementation of for free? But hey-hey, honest mistake, right?
"I mean, we expected everybody to settle out of court, just to get us to go away. Imagine my surprise when David explained that IBM has so many lawyers on retainer. Really, who'da thunk it? Honest mistake, right?"
Opinions on the Twiddler2 hand-held keyboard?
to make your resume impressive. Do stuff on your own time that you can show off regardless of the way the employment winds blow. I've had a lot of good jobs that look good on a resume, but it's the work I've done on my own that sells me to a potential employer every time.
Okay, so you're months between clients.
So it goes.
---- The above post was generated by the Turing Institute. Maybe.
Tell them, "At least I had a longer run than Stephen King's "Carrie: The Musical"?
-----
Care killed the cat, but satisfaction brought it back.
I went through a bump just like that. I couldn't get hired for 7 months, thanks to a 5 month stint at a company that eventually went belly up a year after laying me off. After 6 months of interviewing for jobs(I was also volunteering for non-profits in my area, in order to have something on my resume for that time), I realized that I was at a disadvantage to the MANY who also were looking for work but didn't have a short stint on their resume.
So when I was asked about that time, I explained it honestly, and offered to come in as a contractor if they had any concerns about my work ethic or ability to do the job, pointing out that they'd be able to fire me at any time, and could pay me less at first. My 4th interview using this strategy, got me in as a contractor. They kept me there for 6 months(no health benefits, and not really good pay), but then they hired me full time.
So this worked for me.
Think for yourself, destroy your television.
A resume should not contain any irrelevant information. Your five-week job is irrelevant. You did not gain any experience there, and the reasons you were laid off have no bearing on your future job performance.
Call that section of the resume "Related Experience" as opposed to "Employment History".
You shouldn't include your high school summer job at McDonald's on a professional resume. A job that evaporated before it really started is in the same category. Drop it.
What's to explain: you work in IT, right?
Any manager that has a problem with moving jobs must've been asleep since 2000.
As everyone says: just be honest.
I mentioned that the level of technical depth required for this QA group is much shallower than my original QA group. This is a result of the project completion schedules. The projects which I work on now are on the order of 3 months at a maximum and I've been on some projects that have lasted no more than a week. It would be impossible to do much more than run already existing tests which take several days in and of themselves. Compound this with the fact that several projects are running at once, so QA is running tests on a variety of projects all the time. There simply isn't time to write new tests or do much more than finetune existing tests. I was lucky that I got a chance in Japan to spend a significant amount of time developing tests as well as fixing existing tests while the QA engineers already on the team ran the tests.
My original QA team, in contrast, had projects lasting years. These were product-related, so the QA effort was much more important as we were the last line of defense before the product hit the shelves. We started from nothing and built our test environments from there.
Both teams had technically excellent people, the home company never hired anyone who couldn't pass a technical interview. The ones that I know that remain feel quite underused and that their skills are slowly diminishing, but all of them have BSCS at a minimum. I'm glad to have worked with them, as they have been my support while I have been in Japan.
I have been pwned because my
Some interviewers would rather you be honest, but if you, like I, feel funny about having to explain a period of unemployment, one way to get around it is to continue to support (remotely) one or more projects, products, or infrastructure you've designed or built in the past, on a freelance ad hoc basis. It's easy to ask someone who you worked with before to support you in this regard and also provide a reference proving recent contact.
..
The prospective employer doesn't have to know if it's one hour a month or twenty days a month
I've done this on and off and it has made it easier to have a conversation..
Depends on where you are in life but..
When the layoff started happening I must have gone through about 4 companies in 3 years. (Silicon valley, it was nuts here!) It even got to the point where I could "smell" when a layoff was going to occur for anyone. Sort of like how one minute all the zebra's are munchin grass, and the next minute, before the lion goes into chase mode, they all look at that one and say, "He's next to go!"
I got so sick of blurring my resume, lying, filling in the blanks, stretching out employment dates, overstating my job and depending on someone else for a paycheck that the last layoff was the last straw. I flipped my middle finger in the direction of all these guys "charging" me for doing my W-2 while they loaned themselves a mountain of company money to buy themselves a house while saying "Hey taxman, this isn't personal income, this is a "LOAN" from the company to me, haha on you"
So I started my own company. No big deal. Just go down to your city office, pay your business tax, and if you want a corporation (I went LLC) just have an agent like thecompanycompany.com fill out your paperwork with the state for about $800.
You know what you do for a living now right? Why not just offer it up to the general public with a real company. Call your old boss up and tell him you've started your own deal, and if he knows anyone looking for help. Chances are he'll hire you or pass your name around.
There was this other slashdot article a while back about going on your own. I recomend searching the archives for it.
Yep I lived in the US for 1 year. I'm just amazed that they've managed to convince 250 million people that working your whole life and resfusing to take your one week off a year vacation for fear thet it might cause you to be passed over for a promotion is a good thing.
It seems to me in the US the priorities between corporate life and "lifestyle" or personal development are all out of whack and that's why even small gaps in your resume are an issue in the US but no big deal in other western countries.
Almost every unemployed techie these days got that way not because it was our own fault, but just like the examples above, projects get canceled or things or we were on a project that look good on the drawing board but didn't work in practice. The fact that our ex-employers weren't able to show to the state that the breakup was our fault so that we'd be denied unemployment pay is proof enough that it wasn't our fault.
In fact, I've actually got a copy of state unemployment form that assigns a letter code for just about every reason you can think about for letting somebody go... and my ex-employer selected "U" for "Unknown". (Chosing not to disclose the reason would have been an "N" for "No contest".) If my ex-employer's HR department can't even figure out the reason that I was let go, that's a sign that we've got a long story here.
My answer for why they can't speak to my immediate supervisor at my past job? "I have no idea where he is. From what I was told as I was leaving, it didn't seem like he was going to have the option of staying with them for much longer either. The rest of managers at the company were happy with the level of service I was providing their departments. Letting me go was not the only debatable business decision from him that his higher-ups were scratching their heads about. I've got the number for the HR exec there on the resume, he can confirm what I just told you."
If that's all he does, it will look ridiculous. I agree that he can't start tugging his collar and scanning the room for a quick escape, but attitude has only its place.
So long, michael. Don't let the door hit you...
Here in Australia this is quite common and perfectly acceptable, also in europe it's no big deal many people over there do this.
I don't know what part of Australia you are from, but where I am from any time you spent without a job on your resume makes people sit up and say, "What were you thinking not putting your nose to the grindstone?"
lie
When I interview people, I couldn't give a fuck about their employment history, it's all about what they know and how well they know it. Their employment history really is not an issue unless they make it one, in which case they've probably lost the job.
So keep your skills sharp, and keep your attitude positive, because that's what really counts when you interview for your next job.
Bad luck usually is an indicator of a poor match of expectations or skills with the environment.
Consider a change in career direction. There are jobs out there, you just have to be willing to take them. We can't dictate what we are going to do in life, at least if you want to get paid well.
In terms of resume holes, I suggest you figure out ways to close them up, and embellish as much as you can without being an outright liar. Longterm out of work people are assumed to have a problem. See if you have someone who can cover for you somehow. I have asked that favor of people over time.
Try to look as good as you can, and use the economy excuse for what you can. Don't get depressed - depressed people aren't good hires.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
Just drop it off your resume. 5 weeks is not enough. If you're applying anywhere that REQUIRES an application, then you should write it down there, but 5 weeks isn't enough that it will matter. You can't gain any REAL experience in 5 weeks time that couldn't have been obtained elsewhere. Just omit it when you are putting out your resume...it's not lying.
Your resume should put your best foot forward. You shouldn't have to explain anything on the resume. For instance, if you are applying for a programming job, the fact that you can change a car tire is moot and would get your resume thrown out in a heart beat.
If you actually have any money to speak of, hire a professional resume writer (college towns are good places to find them...don't pay more than about $70-$80 for it). They are well worth the money and if you really are that bad at writing your resume, most will update it when needed for a small fee.
One last point on the Professional Resume Writer thing...don't pay for services that submit your resume or guarantee job offers, they don't work...some will offer rewrites if you don't get a job in a specific amount of time...these are different and are actually a good idea. Some will also offer X number of cover letters for free, this is also a good idea...
When he looks puzzled trying to understand what "Goatse" is, give the interviewer the URL so he can see for himself.
So long, michael. Don't let the door hit you...
Ever heard of a little turd of a company named SCO?
True story.
Ive worked at 7 companies over the last 7 years, I only list 4 on my resume. And 2 of those I chock up as DotBomb companies, which they were and VERY well remebered in my area. The other 3 companies I list were short stints, 1 was for about 2 months before I went back to work for the company I had just left. Another was pretty much the same.
I have 2 6 month "OFF" periods (I was lazy and didnt feel like working) in which I am asked what I did, the anser , half true, CONSULTING, I have never ONCE been asked WHO I was contracting under, even though it was myself for clients I took from my previous emplyers (Dont gimme that, I BROUGHT THEM the customers to begin with)
But just let them know you worked at a DotBomb or 2 they'll understand and its always worth a good reminiscing chuckle at the interview.
I know people hiring might think skills can go stale. But certain skills and traits do not (the most important ones, IMO), and I'd much rather hire a good-to-great programmer that's taken a year off to go travelling than an average-to-good programmer who's coming fresh out of another job.
I really hope I get an interviewer who thinks like that the next time I have to go job hunting... But that's probably a far-fetched fantasy.
help your grandma with her computer and put down Freelance Consulting during the downtimes.
Sadly not true in the UK, gaps are distinctly frowned upon by HR/recruitment and generally you won't make it to interview. The more savvy people will usually listen but UK recruitment is frequently controlled by algae, (true quote from recruitment drone "...so what exactly is a PhD?" Arggh!).
I came to a company outside of Boston in December '02, and our group was sold to a California company in February '03. THey wanted to move us out to their Palo Alto offices, but I saw no reason to join them. I've worked a contract position in Boston since last July when the buyout was completed, and I've had several interviews (and job offers since then). I really though joining the company I did in 12/02 was a smart move, and in the end it was good for what time I was there. But now I'm about to take on a Senior position at age 24 for a company in the Back Bay. I don't neccesarly think it hurt me at all.
Not if I have anything to do with it!
In my 25 years of programming I've lived through many business SNAFUs, some of which are reflected on my resume. It has never been a problemn. Sounds like you are handling it just right. Simply state the facts if they ask, keep your mouth shut if they don't. The people interviewing you should know that the whims of business often throw a monkey wrench into people's careers. If they don't, you probably don't want to work for them anyway.
RIP Goatse. Didn't mean to rub salt in the wound.
So long, michael. Don't let the door hit you...
Selling cars and selling yourself are very different. The deceptive marketing you are talking about is all very well for a one-shot transaction, the money's handed over and, oops, this isn't the product I expected, but a job is different because there's an expectation of performance each and every day, and the renumeration is iterative, not single-shot. Exaggerating your claims in an interview is very different than not selling yourself short. I've interviewed plenty of dumbfucks like you; if you're lucky, I challenge you on your exaggerations in the interview and make you look foolish. If you're unlucky I fire you after three days when it becomes obvious you lied about your abilities. Try bullshitting your way out of that situation in your next interview.
...or maybe just boring. Basically, if the interviewer likes you and thinks you're suitable, they'll accept just about any way you might have of honestly dealing with your history will do, and if not, you're out of luck in this economy.
Be honest, of course, as so many others have already said. But it's vital not to seem embittered, angry, or desperate. Instead, think of this as an opportunity for a prospective employer to hear how you handle adversity. I imagine anyone would be attracted to someone who does so with grace and confidence. Gentle humor - and it doesn't have to be killer funny either - is a good way to express those qualities.
In the current economy, it's not uncommon to have held jobs for short stints of time, and for longer stretches to occur between gainful employment. As long as you sparkle in your interview, prove that you are knowledgeable and dependable, your previous employment becomes less important in the interviewer's eyes.
I, too, have been a victim of bad luck in employment. I took a job as a game designer, and little did I know that they were trying to play super-catch up and make up for months of slacking. The publisher dropped support and massive waves of lay-offs ensued. I had only been working there three months when my employment was terminated. I've been interviewing for other positions, and the question always comes up. I consulted a friend who used to work in HR (for ten years, no less!) and he's told me on numerous occasions that without a doubt, honesty is the best policy. "It is VERY difficult to talk about a bad situation with the result being your termination. I think I would say I was laid off and leave it at that. You never want to make your former employer look bad."
So there you have it, straight from the horse's mouth. I hope this helped!
I've been there. I stressed my freelance experience. I did land a couple of short freelance jobs after I was laid off. They like to here about what you have been doing other then collecting an unemployment check.
Considering that you were only there 5 weeks, why even bother listing it at all? You don't lose anything by not listing it; what's 5 more weeks of joblessness when you've been out for a year?
my sig's at the bottom of the page.
I'm ready to tell any interviewer exactly what I've done. There is NOTHING lazy about taking advantage of state benifits. It shows you knew where to look, took some of your tax money back the way it was supposed to be used and cared about your career. In fact, it's lazy and counterproductive to just take anyjob without first looking. It takes worlds of industry to fill out job applications, and cold call. By the time you are finished, everyone in the world should have seen your resume too. Many people will think I'm a pest, but no one can accuse me of being lazy.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
I hate to say it, but under the circumstances, more than one short stint of unemployment isn't necessarily the mark of an unqualified candidate.
If I hadn't been so low on savings and unemployment, I would have had a three month stint a couple of years ago (instead I took the equivalent of a minimum wage job, but still technical to a degree), and then another a couple of years ago, and in both cases I really had no control.
At worst you could say my job search and marketing skills were poor. In fact that may be true, to end the stint I had a year ago I had to go through a contract company that gave my resume the marketing touch, and ultimately I performed so well the contracting company's client went to a good deal of trouble to hire me directly (thankfully) with a significant raise after about half a year. So the beginning of my stints were unfortunate, but not my fault, and the duration of the stints reflects mostly the labor market, and worst case my job-seeking/marketing skills more than technical.
Of course, despite my good standing currently, I always fear that a shutdown will happen yet again. I'm somewhat reassured because I know exactly where to go (contracting, hate it, but at the same time their marketing skills are better than mine), and were it not for this lucky coincidence past, I would guarantee it would take several months to find a new job were I to lose my current one.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
As someone currently hiring 4 positions, I can offer you this...
Be honest (about downtime in your case especially)
Don't exaggerate your achievements
Stay calm, don't bounce around in your chair
Appear interested and "aware"
Don't say "yeah" or "ok" after every sentence the interviewer says
Smile
Also, I know the IT scene is tough right now, but from the interviewer's perspective, it's hard finding good people too. We typically hire 2 to 4 IT staff each year, and finding good ones is a chore. I wish I had a dollar for every DBA interview candidate I've talked to that couldn't write a simple select statement when asked to. Bear in mind, their resume statement that they were "SQL Experts", or had x years of experience with SQL Server (yes, we're a Microsoft shop).
My Tech Posts on Twitter
It works for millions of Americans every year. ;-)
I believe the following will sum up why people feel this way.
Amazon
Furthermore, I have been on few long vacations that I truly enjoyed. People in the U.S. also take advantage of 3 day weekends. With flying as cheap as it is, you fly somewhere Thursday night, and return late Sunday night. Great way to spend a weekend partying and getting some sun on the beach.
-- the computer doesn't want any beer, no matter how much you think it does. NEVER, EVER feed your computer beer.
"The Big Trip" and alternative lifestyles are both more commonly acceptable here in Australia then the US. Sure they ask what I was doing in that year but they accept the explanation and many middle managers in Australia did extended backpacking trips in their 20's so they understand. UK has "Gap Year" and in many countries on continental Europe there is a tradition to take a year off in between your one year complulsary military service and entering university.
So yeah it might still get a question but I've never been refused a job because of it. Sounds like in the US you wouldn't even get to interview stage.
... and the rest of you are not.
We have been actively engaged in reviewing dozens of resumes every week for months now - Most of my colleagues and I can discern bad luck from a genuine loser. I do pay attention to the period between jobs, and usually I am turned off by people that only stay at a job for 2 years or less - however sometimes these guy's are exceptional performers and may be suitable for hire. Usually its easy to spot the prospect who is just not very good and always ends up on the lay-off A-list. In short be honest and forthright, if the employer is worth working for anyway, he'll be smart enough to be able to separate the good from the bad and you will have a decent shot. Pay attention to resume format - don't do anything weird or unusual (I really hate those), check your spelling, don't send plain text resumes via e-mail (uugh).
No matter how unfairly you believe you were treated, don't bitch and moan about it.
We had to interview one job applicant who was recently laid off. He went into this long rant about how the management were incompetent, his coworkers were retards, it was all everyone else's fault, he was the second coming of Jesus Christ and everyone was just too stupid to see it, and so on. There was also a mini-version of that same rant in his resume!
This frightening outburst was prompted by a fairly unprovocative question about what he did at his previous job.
We were left in absolutely no doubt as to why he was sacked. Why would you want someone like that around, who casts blame on everyone else at the first opportunity and behind their back when under pressure?
Hiring managers need to narrow down the prospects using any method possible. Typos and wrong names and such get you eliminated immediately. Why waste time on you if you can't use an apostrophe correctly? I've eliminated people based on the college they went to. No seriously, it's not because I'm a bi*#*#, it's because I couldn't think of any other way to narrow down 200 resumes to 20. So I was looking for any methodology possible.
One such criterion included people with too much job hopping. This is almost a double standard considering my last 6 jobs were less than a year each (avg. 7 months) for reasons mostly valid, like being laid off along with the other 40 people at the company. However, I decided I wanted one of those people who just works and never leaves... so much cheaper to deal with.
HOWEVER - if you get through that elimination process and make it to an interview, by all means, tell them the truth. If in fact your story is true. If it's not true, tell them that story - cuz it is fine.
Also tell them you are looking for a good, stable, long-term gig. In fact, if the resume isn't getting you in the door, put "...seeks long-term employment with great company..." type B.S. in your OBJECTIVE. Just make it clear you're not a job hopper without sounding paranoid.
I hire developers and I'd guess about half of the people I interview are out of work. Being laid off is often a matter of luck so that actually doesn't interest me very much. How the candidate has responded to being out of work interests me a lot. It's a chance for me to see how they have responded to a real life problem. What are they doing with their time? Do they still programme for fun? Are they keeping their existing skills honed? What are they learning to give themselves an edge?
An out of work developer who hasn't written any code for nine months is completely different from one who's putting together their own Linux distribution.
L.
I'd omit anything that is difficult to explain from your resume. In fact, instructor for the resume writing class I went to advised me not to include a job history going back more than 10-15 years, since it leads to age discrimination (yes, this means you need to omit your graduation date as well). Managers are only going to glance at your resume for 20-30 seconds, just looking for any reason to reject it. Don't give them a reason. Also, it is a good idea to rewrite your resume to show your qualifications for each individual job you're applying to. Not that I'd advise you to lie, but you need to emphasize the applicable skills and experience, and omit the inapplicable ones.
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
Don't emphasize the bad luck aspect. What else have you been doing other than job hunting? Chances are you have been productive, at least some of the time. Maybe you've had time to do some study or research about something that interested you. Focus on any and all positive life experience you've chalked up. Don't take a defensive attitude about it. I think the significance of gaps on a resume are way overplayed.
Don't make any excuses just drop it from your resume. The important thing is that your resume is the key to the door not "buying the house". If there are lots of resumes in a pile the manager will hand it to his secretary and say get rid of anyone without a qualification or who looks like a job hopper. You will never get to the person who will really make sense of it.
When you get face to face, let them know what happened and lay it on the line that you did not consider 3 weeks in a company imploding as experience, except for a personal one. Then ask them targetted questions on their ability to give you full time employment.
A deck of questions from you is the best sales point you can have. I walked into interviews and asked the hard questions, I got respect from the interviewer and I eliminated a couple of job offers because they were not what I wanted. (By the looks of it, simply "a job" is what you are after but do ask the questions!)
Try the honest approach first. If that doesn't work, throw down a smoke canister and make a hasty retreat.
Evil laugh during escape is optional.
That's what employers care about the most. Put a box in the top portion of your resume sumarizing your strengths then backup these highlights further down in point form. I'm a developer and my resume so I put things like excellent problem solver and team player in my highlights box. I have 4 sections in my resume: Software Development, Systems analysis, and education/experience. The education and experience are the smallest sections the rest is filled with all the great things I've done and can do for a potential employer. It's worked well for me. I got 3 interviews in one week using this resume format and that was after only a couple of weeks dropping it off at places.
I'm not claming to speak on behalf of everyone, but I interview a fair number of people whenever we have an opening at my help desk. I'll ask about gaps in resumes just like I'd ask about anything else. Honesty really works (well unless you have something really nasty :) ) If you were looking for work for a year - say that you are looking for a year. Assuming you have the skills to work where you are interviewing , employers are looking for personality more then anything else. How do you handle adversity? Tell it to them as a story without too much bitterness, and you've just humanized yourself to a recruiter that might see hundreds of resumes and interview a fair amount of people a day.
Oh, just say you were "an independant consultant" during that time, and use big words to describe anything computer-related you did. Did you set up your mom's computer? "Optimized customer client software installation." Plug in a router? "Designed and implemented a distributed peer-to-peer communications system."
The idiots who review your resume will think you were cherry-picking the best freelance jobs. They'll never guess what was really going on!
On your resume, remove the "Months" from your Experience section.
I was laid off for 9 months during 2002. But since my previous job ended in 2002 and my next job started in 2002 there doesn't appear to be any gaps in my resume since I only list jobs by year.
Make a point of always being in school or some sort of formal training. If you have a bad lapse of employment you can simply drop the employment and document the time as furthering your education or expanding your skills in school.
This also has the added benefit that it really does further your education and expand your skills.
One last point. Being in school does not imply you have to be the student. A lot of technical colleges need adjunct instructors to teach a few evening and weekend courses. Putting on your resume that you taught impresses far too many people but it works.
One from your family or the interviewer's?
I guess it would work either way...
I want to drag this out as long as possible. Bring me my protractor.
Don't put anything negative or apologetic anywhere in your paperwork - resume or cover letter or follow-up note.
Just tailor your resume, etc. to indicate that you are positive about a long-term commitment. (Even if your definition of long-term and theirs differ.)
Be honest. (Although this doesn't apply to you) job hoppers move from job-to-job several times a year and are hired, seemingly without concern. Why should someone who has been bounced around by [former] employers be considered even [to] or worse?
Besides, if they don't hire you, f%ck'em. It's their loss. Why mourn "a job" when you want the "right job"?
It's due to what some consider the extreme American "work ethic." Here, you are expected to work hard, all the time, preferably six or seven days a week, until you "retire" (more and more people now work during "retirement"). While this makes having "a life" difficult, it is what led to America becoming a global economic, military, and political uberpower in, what, a couple mere centuries. Old habits die hard. It is why you are lucky to get two paid weeks of vacation here, vs. six or more in some European nations.
This expected work ethic is not compatible with taking extended breaks. Being out of work is one thing... being voluntarily out of work is often seen as laziness.
On the other hand, of course, such a work ethic is, generally, a common trait of all really successful people, regardless of nationality or where they live. I guess in America, most businesses want to hire people who have the drive to be successful in life. I just wish they would accept that sometimes, success oriented people also want to pause and smell the rose.
Larry
Very simple reason. During that "gap" you might have had a job and make a complete pig's breakfast out of it. By accounting for all your time, your prospective employer has a chance to track down all your past employers and find out if you screwed up in a major way. If you have gaps all over the place, you may have just included those jobs where you didn't screw up, and left out the ones where you bankrupted the company by doing something monumentally stupid. Or you might have been in jail, rehab, or something equally unappealing to a prospective employer. So if you do choose to bum around Europe for a year, be damn sure to keep hotel and travel receipts!
If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
Gap years are for before going to university. I assure you that gaps at other stages of your career, are not very accepted in the UK. Weirdly enough I ended up having to come to the US, where at least they'll occasionally accept that sometimes good people end up unemployed. I've found the UK completely intolerant - if you don't have a job, you can't get a job, simple as that.
Never forget: the purpose of a resume is to get you an interview. If you got the interview, then you know that there were no fatal flaws on your resume. If there were fatal flaws on the resume, you won't get the interview and, hense, won't be able to explain them away.
What do other Slashdot readers do to make 'bad luck' (or bad employer choices) look less bad on their resume, and sound less bad in interviews?
Why should they want to hire you if you have a history of bad employer choices? Maybe you're bad luck!
Yet another example of how the US "work ethic" has invaded our minds. Someone here claiming that 3 day weekends are a good thing. Sure, if we got one every week.
But we're made to feel guilty for ever being sick, for ever wanting a 3 day weekend (and you don't get these often unless you're top brass anyway), and Ford forbid that we actually take time away from the working world to spend some time for ourselves.
Life is all about work, didn't you know that?
-- If it ain't broke - overclock it more.
The resume means nothing. Any place that doesn't check your references is the sort of place where you are better off avoiding. A good reference from a previous employer (or two) will speak volumes.
Enjoy science fiction? "Turing Evolved" - AI, Mecha, Androids and rail-gun battles. What more could you want?
Explain that there is massive volitility in the labor market and that you are looking for a great employer that is able to provide a stable work environment so you can get meaningful work done.
:)
Now of course, your probally jinx-ing the deal and it will all go down the tubes in 6 months.
-- dieman - Scott Dier
Work now for tomorrow you may die! To hell with actually having a life! Ok, I'm a little bitter after working my ass off to only get laid-off.
There is no spoon or sig.
There's no one right answer to this, because it (like every other aspect of hiring/interviewing) varies with who you're talking to. All of the advice in these comments is valid for someone, and invalid for others. Still, my advice:
demi
So if I lived in the US and I say I decided I didn't want to work because I had saved enough money to live on and I wanted to travel/write the american novel/sit at home and play video games/whatever, exactly why should an employer care
Put yourself in an employer's position. Do you want to spend a ton of money recruiting for a job, hours interviewing candidates, hire someone, train them, and have them leave a few months later? Hiring and training an employee costs a company money, so they want one who will stay around and give them a return on that money.
I have blog like everyone else
In America, businesspeople are assholes.
It's true, because they have to be to get ahead. In many companies they usually get promoted through backstabbing, conformity, and poor ethics. The powerful ones only want to work with their lackeys, and nobody cares for anything except money-if they think you care about "quality of life" rather than being a mercenary slave who will do their bidding, that's a reason not to hire you.
The solution is to work for a small company that doesn't have enough layers of bureaucracy to be taken over by corporate politics. Then your boss might be an actual human being.
Forget about dwelling on your interview skills - because you have obviously thought long and hard about how to approach the interview - and the advice simply is; "be honest - but not TOO honest!".
The tricky part is ensuring your application lies in the list of interviews.
Remember, an HR department might see 500+ (or even 5000+ applications!) for some positions and in some locations.
Now - picture yourself as the HR person receiving this applications. 500 cover letters with resumes attached - each one with 8 pages of information. That makes about 4500 pages to read.
Sorry - if your resume/CV is longer than a SINGLE SIDE OF A4 PAPER you most likely will NOT get an interview.
I don't care how many jobs you've had or how freaking successful you are - you need to condense ALL relevant information down to a single page!
You will (of course!) in your covering letter, say something along the lines of:
Four years ago, I was looking for work, and had professional help to get my CV down to a single side of A4 paper - and since that time, I have got interviews for every single position I have applied for. I even got to play three employers off against each other to land my current position. :)
Hope this helps.
How many escape pods are there? "NONE,SIR!" You counted them? "TWICE, SIR!"
Would not be, "fuck you."
But I'm no expert.
You're already going about it the right way. I, too have a one year gap in my Resume they has been questioned. By the time I've told them it's because I took 6 months out to travel to the USA and spend time with my fiancee (later wife), then decided to move here and it took another 3 months to get employement authorisation from the INS they're usually too interested in the story to care :-) [1]
[1] Nitpickers: The remaining 3 months where spent trying to actually find a job.
There is no reason to talk about everything you've ever done. I sometimes do few consulting projects a day, so I just can't talk about every one of them, no matter how much I wanted to. Similarly, there is no point in talking about everything you've never done, so, if I were you, I'd just not say about this short employment period, nor would I say about the long unemployment period. Remember: you were not unemployed, you were self-employed, doing free-lance consulting (and being damn good at that!). The short period of employment was when someone didn't want a consulting contract due to some tax issues. Remember that you have to sound as if you were the best employer since sliced bread god damn it! Not that I would expect any social skills from someone asking such questions on Slashdot, but you have to at the very least sound like you were not a sociopath most of people here are, myself included. Are you a hacker or not? Are you? ARE you?! That's more like it! Now, go to your employer and demand a rise. He can't pay a minimum wage to a systems security consultant with twenty years of cutting edge experience and 174 IQ, can he? During my long career (and trust me, not that much has changed since the sixties, as far as the business goes) I learned one most important thing: it's either you who fuck them, or they who fuck you. It's really that simple.
How about just being honest about your experience so I can get the job instead? I've been an out of work techie for several years. My tendency is to be honest, but that route wasn't paying the rent. I talked to some tech friends and they all told me that I had to "stretch" things on my resume if I was ever going to pay the rent again. When you are getting your food from the food pantry because your benefits have run out, being creative on your resume is a fair response to employers who are obsessed with every minute of your past work life. The stuff I've added to my resume does not turn me into some wundertechie that I am not, but it does eliminate employer questions about recent gaps on my resume. It ain't my fault that I got laid off at the start of the IT depression. I'm capable of doing all of the work associated with the positions that I apply for.
It's probable that I could still get interviews if I left the unemployment gap on my resume. My experience and previous employment are solid. But when it comes to *surviving* you have to do what you have to do to make the situation more fair for yourself. If American employers wouldn't be so uptight about employment history and focused more on the actual skills that we have, this thread would be unnecessary.
Good luck finding that job! The employers will treat you like shit during the interview process, so do what you have to do to get the job.
My mother had the situation arise, where after she moved 1500 miles and started a new job the place she kept books went bankrupt. Not too surprising that the previous bookkeeper saw the signs and bailed. But, then the next job she got had the same thing, just took a little longer, although in the end it was much more abrupt. To top that off, the next employer, (which took some time to find, since serial bankruptcies doesn't look great on a resume for a bookkeeper) was indicted for money laundering, sheltering illegal drug money, wire fraud, etc.. For some reason after that mom changed careeers.
Tell The Truth.
There have been enough layoffs in this industry over the last twenty years, that people understand that, and it's nothing to hide.
If you don't tell the truth, and they find that out before you're higher, you will NOT get the job.
A group of friends and I were recently unemployed. We all got phone numbers in various area codes from Vonage.com and put fake employment data on our resumes (real companies, but using the phone numbers we got from vonage). When they called to verify employment, the phone was answered like the front desk or a manager, depending on if the phone number looked like an extension or a main number.
This was used to fill in gaps of unemployment due to the dot com burst. Worked great, we all got jobs, and no one figured it out. Hence, my anonymous posting.
If you can project those three items, you have the best shot you will ever get at nailing the job.
I was asked in a whirl-wind style interview, literally "So I don't exactly understand why we are interviewing you. Your degree doesn't match the job openings". I then sincerely explained that, while my background is a dual degree in Chemistry/Chemical engineering, I've done imaging science the entire period of my employment. Threw in a few stories about projects I'd worked on, (You do have your "Problem, Action, Quantified Results" stories in your head, don't you???) and he accepted it.
Another asked about the layoffs and specifically why I was targetd. You *know* they are going to want to ask that question- be prepared to handle it. Don't whine. Don't Whine. DON"T WHINE! Remember that. Explain it as "We were told that seniority would count significantly during the layoff process. As I had just entered the group a year (or your case, 5 weeks) ago, when they pulled the project funding I was the newest, hence the least 'points' awarded during the deselection criteria"
Don't sound bitter- we all know you will be from the stories, and hearing 'laid off' doesn't have the stigma it once does. But dont' hide it in BS. If you present even a slightest bit, or get caught in a lie, you can kiss it goodbye. I've interviewed many a person and that is the one thing I listen for... I hear BS, you can use the resume to whipe it off the shoe.
If you went back to work for just a short while, I'd feel free to just not mention that job, and just lump that in with the period before and after, when you were "consulting". You could mention it as an example of "projects" you did while you were otherwise-out-of-work, to demonstrate that you weren't just sitting on your ass, but being a self-motivated pro-active kinda guy.
Just a random bit of advice for anyone who (like me) was singled out to be gotten rid of (for personal illegal-in-several-states reasons, for what it's worth): find a way to "launder" your resume without actually lying (which would be just plain stucking fupid). For example, go back to school, and pick up another degree or something. (If you have no income, financial aid is often available.) Sign up for the Peace Corps or something. Then put that on a chronological resume and employers may just assume you did it on purpose.
I once viewed my credit history and noticed an error that worked in my favor. I took a little over a year off to try something else (for lower pay rate and found out newer company had poor ethics) and then went back to old company and job. Later after trying the new job, I worked part-time at the old job while finishing my bachelor degree.
Should I make my credit score look worse? The company I worked at around the 13 month job is honest, so they will show report was wrong. On the other hand the other company had no problem with using pirated software from small software companies and had me pretend illegal copies were legal. At first I thought it was a temporary measure and they were going to fix it as soon as the company grow a little larger. I made several hints to "get all of the features for the software", when MS had a pirated software campaign on the radio. They worked fast to fix the MS piracy, but not the other small software company piracy. I would like to think that they fixed it with the other company, but honestly don't think they did.
I was glad to leave and know if I truely say why I left it will look bad. In addition, I have seen signs on the web that many companies approve of piracy, especially if the software company doesn't have a legal team. How do you explain or know ahead of time which companies have really high ethics? Is switching to government level better with ethics/only break ethics when vital national/international interest or is it dependent on manager?
I'm not even a computer-type person (my resume is a mix of chemistry and cooking), but I always put the reason I left a particular job right there on my resume. It makes situations like this pretty much self-explanitory. Of course, I've never been fired for any negative reasons, so I don't have to worry about that...YMMV.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. - Aldous Huxley
One of your jobs was 2.5 years. That's a decent stint. The other job was shorter, I guess. Why don't you, instead of listing months on a job, list, the years you worked. Like, maybe:
2003 Company 2
1999-2002 Company 1
During interview, you can explain that your projects were terminated. Or whatever. On the resume you can avoid looking suspicious by using the above method.
Don't put "BTW I WASN'T FIRED FOR BEING A BAD GUY" on your resume...
Ecce Europa - Web Design for Business
Just self employ yourself. Then you don't have to worry about what other employers think.
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http://spaceruckus.web1000.com
These guys are putting together a free 3D action/adventure game.
Free Wii Points
on my resume, i do not put the exact dates of my employment next to the jobs that i worked. i only put the years that i worked. so even if there was a break, they wouldn't see it. this would effectively hide the five weeks on, five weeks off, five weeks on, pattern the original poster talked about.
Why did I lurk so long before registering for a Slashdot account? I could have had a Slashdot ID of less than 100000.
Don't scrabble for work like an animal starving for food. Commodotize yourself with respect, and employers will respect you in turn. Desperation only pleases the people-users.
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Together, we will drive the rats from the tundra.
Anything can give them grounds to fire you at a later date.
In fact, in most places, they don't even need "grounds" to fire you.
I'm all in favor of ethics, but in this case, there's no point in pretending that you're going to be rewarded for them, at least not directly.
I've not done much bible reading, but your question brought seven simple words from it to the forefront of my thoughts.
"...And The Truth Shall Set You Free..."
You're doing fine. Just tell the truth, and explain the circumstances. Most employers, especially in the tech sector, are all too familiar with what layoffs can do to a person's work history.
Never try to fabricate work history. If you're not 100% comfortable, at both conscious and unconscious levels, with what you're telling a prospective employer, your tension will stand out like a solar flare, especially if said employer requires a polygraph screening prior to employment.
Best of fortune in your hunt.
Bruce Lane, KC7GR,
Blue Feather Technologies
That's a joke. Sort of. All three of the places I was laid off are pretty much gone.
Since I left my first job after grad school, I was laid off three times: Once after 7 months, once after 5 months, and once after 18 months.
I just tell them the truth: The first company had to reduce headcount to get their next round of VC funding, and I was junior. The second lost its funding due to 9/11 worries. The third had its funding cut after failing to produce a single product in over six years.
I then talk about how the changes have made me stronger. How it has forced me to learn more in less time than those who have held steady jobs. I show them how, while I worked for those companies, I consistently produced more value than I cost -- in dollars, whenever possible.
But mostly, remember that times have been tough for everyone in the tech industry. An employer who doesn't know that or doesn't take it into account is probably not worth working for.
A friend of mine worked for a travel industry joint venture that went down the gurgler big time about 13-14 years ago. It cost the investors a couple of hundred million at the time. He told me that he just put a couple of years federal prison on his resume as he's more likely to get hired.
I'm thinking that SCO employees might be taking this approach a couple of years from now...
Once upon a time ppl worked for a company or other organization all their working life. Less than 10 years made you look unstable. These days the thinking is more than 4 or 5 years means you are inflexible and probably intrenched in poor working habits and attitudes.
Simply say (if anyone does ask; unlikely) that thats a contractors life and that its a fact of life that you readily accept to continue working in your chosen field. More important to be cheerful, confident and a little blaise about it. As always be careful to say enough to answer any questions but not enough to provide the rope to hang yourself.
You've got it right: Just explain it directly to them. Keep it simple, concise, and don't pass any blame. Circumstances just happen sometimes.
I've had the same question asked of me in the past. Turns out that I had moved from a one-year contract to a permanent job, which I left when I moved to a foreign country, where I stayed for two years, etc. etc.
What they're looking for is flightiness, or chronic long-term-unemployability. If you have good reasons for your shorter stints (as you do), then they'll understand that that's how the market goes.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
This is bullshit. You're advising someone to lie about a previous job to a potential employer who, if they hire him|her, may do a background check and discover the lies anyway.
I have interviewed job candidates before, and if someone were laid off from a previous job, they aren't fucking alone. It happens, and if an interviewer doesn't understand this they are not living in the real world and perhaps you're better working for someone else. Much better than getting into the habit of telling elaborate lies that will harm you later.
Just go with the truth. Anyone that has been around IT longer than a year knows that there is an artificial amount of turnaround due to the dot-com bubble blow up. It is incredibly rare to find IT people that have averaged more than 3 years per job.
The truth shall set you free. Polish up that resume and don't be embarrassed of your bad luck.
Pedro
----
The Insomniac Coder
A "gap in employment" isn't a big deal, what matters is the reason for it. If you take a year off to travel, or start your own business, or take a long break from working and relax, or because you got injured and couldn't work, and it shows up as a gap on your resume, the interviewer will ask, but they'll have no problem with your answer. I have a yearlong employment gap because I was finishing my thesis. Interviewers always _asked_, but that gap didn't hurt me, because I could explain it. Now, if the gap is because you were in jail or something, that's when it becomes a problem.
In this guy's case, the gaps are a bit of a problem because they are frequent. At first glance it looks like the guy can't hold a job, even though it's not his fault. So he has to convince the recruiter of that.
At any rate, no, gaps don't matter, it's the reason that matters.
I have been to small claims court three times, one went to the judge and I won 100%, the other two settled for the full amount, including court costs. I had a solid case and told the judge exactly what happened; my opponent lied her ass off so bad the judge even gave her a startled look, forged evidence, the whole nine yards of fraud and deception. In one of the settled cases, it would have been the same, I had several different stories from the other party and clear violation of state law (deposit on a rental). In the third case, the guy was just plain lazy and thought he could outwait me, and crumbled 100% on the court date.
Infuriate left and right
It's not about bad luck, it's about the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer in this country. Large company execs seem to be doing _no_ work and getting paid enourmous sums of money. People need to start waking up.
I'd sure like to figure out a way to make the word liberal lose its negative connotation
Easy. Just start calling yourselves "Defenders of the Constitution" instead. Somewhow, "bleeding heart defenders of the constitution" just doesn't sound the same.
BTW. Am not American so perhaps take that with a grain of salt.
Bitter and proud of it.
Look, I'm kinda busy right now and I haven't had time to check all the replies. I'd like to apologise if I'm repeating anything.
So here's the gist. Commit suicide. All these employment problems will fade away. Everyone wins- you don't have any job worries, and there's one more job for the rest of us.
When one steps back from a problem to gain some perspective, things fall in to place. Perhaps you have other skills that are in demand. Perhaps you have interests beyond displays of clever coding and the ability to say "I'm a Computer Programmer!" to the unwashed masses. If not consider the option above.
Yes, I confess, I haven't tried this option yet. I think that one must balance one's need for ego satisfaction with one's willingness to offer a useful service in return for a living wage. We hear so much about the heroes of the digital age here at Slashdot that we must inevitably feel inferior if we aren't making billion$.
Surely it would be a worthy sacrifice if 17% of unemployed Slashdotters would generously offer their souls for the benefit of the remaining hackers. I can assure that media (including \.) will immortalize your thoughtful sacrifice and that generations will ponder your courage. Do the right thing! Let it end now, with dignity, before you become homeless and an embarrassment to others.
...omphaloskepsis often...
Another good thing to have is a real estate license. It can cover any gaps in your resumes by saying, "I worked a project for a commercial customer." They can't press you for details because that's confidential and they can't prove or disprove it. If they do want details you can be vague and say, "Their financing fell through." Which happens all the time. Best have a genuine real estate license, though. That can be expensive to get and costs money to maintain. But I find it very liberating to always have a fall back.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
THINK for yourself instead of asking these piddly questions which you KNOW doesn't have a quick and easy answer to?
jk
American companies simply expect their employees to be fiercely loyal to them, while quid pro quo does not apply.
That is why I am a consultant. However, I explain that being an immigrant who came here with no money I find that being a consultant gives me more control over my taxes and therefore prefers to work this way to catch up with my life savings...
in a matter-of-fact manner. Assigned to certain project, laid off before completion. Etc. Then explain how you got another job. If you plainly explain to your employer that your job-switching was because of your employers decisions, it probably won't effect them. The more important thing is that you get jobs relatively quickly after being fired. Especially in a fast-moving field like CS, things change a lot very quickly. Once you've been unemployed for a year, people start to wonder why you were unemployed that long -- "obviously, there's a reason". You start to get shelf-life, and get stale. It shows that other employers don't want you, or that you're not actively pursuing jobs, neither of which is a good sign. Worse yet, it is a time-frame during which you can fall behind in the profession, and get rusty.
social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen
I moved to a city and the division was closed down after two months. If you haven't done this already, get a letter of recommendation from your current supervisor and make sure it includes wording to explain that the short duration was no fault of yours.
My approach is two pronged:
1) In the short run I keep the company on my resume and use the letter of recommendation to ward off any suspicion that I job hop.
2) In the long run I plan to remove the job from the resume as I start to list start and end times in years rather than month/year.
-- Solaris Central - http://w
Once you get the interview, you first need to analyze whether or not they truely are interested in hiring someone, or if they are "getting their feet wet". I have had friends who routinely interview people to "gain interviewing experience". UBS Paine Webber was/is huge into this. I once got an interview with a company who simply wanted to quiz me on how I implemented a mutual fund application. When the interview was over, I got the "you're completely unqualified" speech which blew my mind because I answered everything perfectly. I had another instance at Morgan Stanley in Manhatten where I made it through FIVE interviews (long, 6 hrs each), only to have a middle manager reject me because "my GUI answer was waaaay off base".
Now don't get me wrong, I've fucked up plenty of interviews and I've also had interviews where I was completely unqualified. The above events showed me that just because you have an interview does NOT mean that the company has any intention to hire!
That will leave more jobs for the rest of us!
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
What managers are failing to understand there is the difference between an employee and a contract-for-hire. If they want to do that, they should put out bids for programmers to do certain projects. However, employees desire a certain stability, and creating a corporate repuation for instability is not going to attract good employees.
social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen
Then your job is always "President" - no gaps in the resume at all, nothing to explain.
Unfortunately 7 Indians, each working 40 hours a week, is still cheaper than 1 American with an "extreme work ethic" putting in 80 hours a week.. so what the hell's your point?
My employment history is pretty solid for the first 3 years, then a patch of 3 companies in a year, and then a 3 year stint and then a 3 year stint at my current company.
A company I just interviewed with (in case the current one goes under) asked about that 1 year period and were satisfied with my responses (they made me an offer), but I don't think it will be an issue unless there is a preponderance of these "3 months on the job" additions to your resume. Not listing them could in fact be better than doing so.
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...friends get you jobs. Make friends, let them know your story, work record means nothing. Maybe 1/100 people have a job because of their unique qualifications. The rest of us have our jobs because someone decided they wanted us. ent
What the hell is this?
Is it really worth it?
Anyway we all are gonna die someday. So don't worry much about that!
Just tell the truth but show them you're keeping up with current tech issues and you are confident despite the gap in your career!
But also, if you are pretty confident, just lie! And at the work, show your ability. Then, they don't care whether you lied or not!
In worse case, if you don't get a job, go to a strip bar, hire a few girls, and open a porn site.
Paradoxically, in my opinion, the worst case is the best case!
Your ego is Matrix!
I bill myself as a turnaround specialist; so what I'd say would be something like....
Job 1: Less than 2 1/2 years after being assigned to team, was instrumental in pushing a stalled project out the door.
Job 2: Assigned to a failing product, helped decommission project in less than 5 weeks saving employer millions.
Not courtroom quality testimony. Still, a higher quality of truth than Darl McBride's.
The purpose of the resume and cover letter is just to get you the interview.
Really this will only matter in cases where HR has such a mountain of resumes they're screening by any criteria they can think of (e.g. "This guy drinks Dr. Pepper and our machines only have Coke.") In this case your chances of getting to the all important interview are nearly nil anyway.
Your best bet is to network -- talk to friends and friend of friends, about places that might be considering hiring in the future.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
I do not deploy Linux. Ever.
I think it's drawing a long bow to say that long work hours "led to America becoming a global economic, military, and political uberpower in, what, a couple mere centuries." How about:
1. Abundant natural resources.
2. Slavery, followed by cheap immigrant labour.
3. A large population.
4. Good education.
5. Capitalism.
6. A government willing to use its muscle (military and economic) to get its way.
Working your butt off is less important than any of these.
First, realize that you are just a pawn.
second stop whining and start marketing your "talents", common sense, obviously not one of them.
Oh, and realize that most of the companies you worked at had more money than vision. Then get your own vision.
OR.....move in with your mom, and start drinking. Which, I believe is you ultimate future. Sorry.
A year ago I was laid off from my job after 2 1/2 years, shortly after the product I was working on shipped.
Took a sabbatical after successfully shipping the product.
Later that year, a company moved me 1500 miles from Texas to California, to start working on a promising project, just to have the plug pulled by the corporation that funded it five weeks later, which resulted in another layoff.
Helped guide a failed project to a close with minimal loss to the company.
Now, there's a period of job seeking followed by a five week period of employment, followed by the current job seeking period on my resume.
Took time to improve skills and consider various job opportunities.
I have used a number of these principles since beying laid off in 2002 for both finding a position with a new company and once there an internal move up the chain.
One intangible that beyond this (or maybe reading between the parent poster's lines): do whatever it takes to prepare yourself for a conversation with your interviewer. Yes, this can be hard in a question-answer-question-answer type format, but figure out how you're going to weave things into a conversation. When you engage your interviewer in a conversation they can better connect with and relate to you. It also helps them visualize what you would be like on the job - most people will want to work with others they can successfully interact and collaborate with.
I was retrenched after 2.5 years with an employer. It sucked in a big way. Sure, I was one of about a dozen people marched out the door on the day but it was largely the result of stupid internal politics, nasty staff, and bad luck.
In my case it only happened once, but I contracted for over a year after that hopping from one short-term contract to the next. Each time I sat an interview the question was asked... why did you leave that 2.5 year job, why did you leave your last 3 employers so rapidly. So I told 'em the truth: I got retrenched, suckage but what can you do? The others were short-term gigs, just contracts. They'd ask me leading questions to see if I'd be nasty about the ex-employer, and I'd cheerfully tell them that yeah, I didn't like 'em very much any more... would you, if they laid you off? But that's business, and I'm here to work for you guys now.
I only missed out on two jobs during that period of my life, neither because of being laid off. Honesty is a valuable commodity these days, especially in the IT industry. Use it to your advantage.
Way back in the early 80's, when I was a naive little dork I let a headhunter talk me into leaving a pretty good job at Motorola for a smaller company that was growing by leaps and bounds. One thing lead to another, and three months and nine days later I was laid off, the first of ten engineers let go because the company had grown too quickly.
So I went job hunting, and it was pretty unpleasant, but eventually I found myself across the table from a guy who was hiring for a small project, and I explained that I'd been laid off. I told him I thought I'd done a great job, worked hard and helped the team, but they'd still gotten rid of me. (They went on to lay off nine more of the twelve new hires. Oops.)
It turned out he'd had the same thing done to him, and he totally sympathized with me. He saw one resume for a mechanical engineer, half a dozen for electrical engineers and several dozen for software engineers -- the position I applied for. I got the job.
So maybe it was a blessing in disguise -- I dunno -- I never want to get laid off like that again. But that job was probably the best project I worked on, because we were given a clear goal, given money to do it, and we were left alone. We produced a working eletromechanical system in 7 1/2 months, complete with high voltage system, robotic controllers and control software running on an IBM PC and an onboard 6809 processor. Sweet.
So don't sweat it -- you worked hard, you did a good job, then someone else pulled the plug. That's not your fault. Just don't sound too bitter when you tell the story -- be a little detached. Good luck.
Some resume advice: instead of focusing on the tasks you performed, clearly communicate what you accomplished for each organization you worked for.
These days, it's very common for a person to have bounced between many jobs. The number of jobs isn't as important as what a person achieved at each of them.
Every person has a story - it's up to you to tell it in the most compelling light.
Instead of compiling a resume, follow the advice of Ask the Headhunter's Nick Corcadilos and create a working resume: win the job by doing the job. Check out that website for the best job hunting advice I have ever seen. Read everything you can from the site, and get his book as well. He also produces an excellent weekly newsletter by email.
Best advice ever about how to stand out from the crowd, bypass the resume/job listing sinkhole and get directly to a manager who wants to hire you.
Secession is the right of all sentient beings.
Just say that you completed the job. That is exactly what you did - you worked until the project was finished, it just wasn't shipped. If they check with your company, and you were laid off, then that is exactly what they will say - since, technically, you completed the job.
If you studied anything in the meantime, I would suggest that you say that you were increasing your job skills, and state what skills you were trying to increase.
Above all, be confident and focused. One thing that helps is to use the male "I'm interested and listening" pose - head forward, pointed at the person speaking, making eye contact. It helps if you enter the interview with the attitude that the interviewer is partnered with you in the effort to get you hired - that way you'll ask the right questions like "What do I need to show you so that you will know that I am the right candidate for the job" and "Here is how my previous experience and knowledge applies to the position you will be hiring me for".
If you find that there is no way that you can fulfill the job, ask for the interviewer's card if you know of someone who could fill it. This will give you good will with the company, and with the person you recommend. It will also give you at least one inside contact, and allow the interviewer to know that you are professional and you won't attempt to dent their car in the parking lot. (Don't laugh - I've worked next to some people who carried loaded weapons and threatened to kill their co-workers).
aking advantage of state benefits ... it does show a lack of moral character.... Admittedly, you've been brainwashed along with everyone else into thinking that taxes aren't theft, but in reality, that's what they are
I'll let you know when the benefits reach an apreciable fraction of the taxes I actually paid the year before I was canned. Don't hold your breath, though, I exhausted them about six months ago. It slowed the rate of exhuastion of my savings but not much. It helped keep me from losing my house, but the drain goes on as I've yet to land a job that pays half of what my last one did.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Well, generally, I'd say this would be a good thing to include in a cover letter. With online submission, the focus on cover letters has faded a bit, but I still think they are an important part of any job application. Most importantly, keep the letter very short and to the point, so that they actually read it. Briefly and HONESTLY explain what happened - tell them enough to not throw out your resume. A well-written cover letter also shows that you are interested in the position (i.e., not submitting 200 resumes for any job you can get - it's probably the truth in this economy, but it helps if they don't get that impression). A good cover letter won't make up for a bad resume, but if there is something on your resume that needs explaination (and personally I think getting laid-off doesn't belong on the resume itself), the cover letter may be what saves you. If you're quickly reviewing a resume, see that the applicant only worked a month in a job and don't understand why, you might be more prone to just rejecting it because there are probably plenty of other applicants that don't show any signs of a problem. If you can flip back to the cover letter and quickly scan through for some mention of what happened, you might keep the resume and ask any other questions in the interview. Of course there are exceptions (I'm sure some person will reply to this saying "I never hire people who give me a cover letter"), it has worked for me and others I know. YMMV, but it probably won't hurt to include one. Oh, and don't just copy a letter out of a book. Write a honest letter and keep it to the point. The more meaningless drivel you put in there, the less likely the letter will actually be read.
It always makes me chuckle to see some rabid libertarian trot out the ole "taxes R theft!!!!1" line. Do you call your cable bill "theft" too? Waaaaah!
You have a contract with the government. The contract is that for a multitude of benefits of living in the US (or wherever you live), you agree to pay a bill. You agree that your share of the bill will be determined by elected representatives. End of story.
If you don't like this arrangement, you are free to leave. There's all kinds of places you can go. Somalia has no recognized government; perhaps you'ld like to try your luck in their tax-free utopia? You're welcome to do so. But there's no theft at all. Vote with your feet, motherfucker! Oh, I forgot, you're a coward. It's easier to whine than it is to suck it up and live by your so-called principles.
Don't whine. Don't Whine. DON"T WHINE!
Great advice. Look at it this way -- one of the main things interviewers want to know is how you will react to adversity.
If you whine about the successive layoffs (or lie about them, or rapidly change the subject), they're going to have a pretty clear picture of what you'll do when your project hits a big snag, or the customer comes back with last minute requirements: you're going to whine to everyone (even people you don't know, apparently) and drag down the morale of your team instead of doing anything useful. I guarantee this will leave a bad taste in their mouths after the interview.
Don't get tripped up because it's not an on-the-job problem. This is just as much an opportunity to prove yourself and how you respond to serious problems (the worse the better, to some extent). Take a second to discuss what happened, and what you've been doing to get back into the game. If you were creative, or if you used your downtime to learn something new, all the better. Maybe you got dropped because you were too much of a one-trick pony... so you learned a new language, and wrote a mini webserver to practice. Tell them your plan (and make sure you've put a lot of thought into it). Be frank, crisp, logical, and upbeat.
If you had to take some strange jobs to keep food on the table, that's okay. If you're uncomfortable about it, they will be too... but if you aren't, they'll probably just like you better for being pragmatic.
[And of course, if you've been sitting there in a funk for 6 months, leeching off your girlfriend and watching TV, now's the time to move your ass, kiddo.]
There are only 10 types of people: those who understand decimal, those who don't, and, uh, 8 other types I forget.
Well spotted. It's worth remembering that humans work to live, not live to work.
Except geeks, for which of course the distinction between work and play does not exist. :)
If you're spending several months looking for work, write some free software! If you are really lucky you will come up with something nice and useful and release it and your potential employers might have heard about it. In the worst case you can say, "Here's something I did recently, and you can have the source code to check it out". You probably can't say that about stuff you did at your previous jobs. Also it makes it clear that you are dedicated and enjoy programming, which counts for a lot.
If they decide to look for grounds, they'll find them, regardless of what you did or didn't do in the job interview. At a past job, people used to worry about personal files on computers, personal telephone calls, blah, blah. I ALWAYS SAID that if the company needed to resort to those tactics to effect a purge, I'd volunteer to leave before anyone else, and I MEAN'T IT!!
that there isn't a moderation option "-1, ideological past point of absurdity."
There's truth in this. I went to work for Airline X and did somthing similar. My employment- while not bad -was heavily fragmented, so I felt the need to stetch the truth in some areas. It was almost a potential costly mistake as they had hired an independent firm to do background checks which found found the inconsistancies rather easily, though it took them nearly 8 weeks to start asking questions. The only way I managed to get out of that mess was to continuely put off their inquiries. While it did finally come to head, enough time had passed with enough problems in the process for the employer to finally just let go.
In otherwords, I got lucky. Of course it didn't help that I was applying for a terrorist targeted industry (doh!), but if they can do it, so can your potential employer. Employ the parents tactics with due caution, if at all.
You need a FREE iPod Nano
I started my own company. Some colleagues and I registered a business in my state and use it as something to keep us up to date during the down time. It shows the interviewer that even though I wasn't so much gainfully employed the whole time, I still kept my skills up to date tweaking my own company. Just make sure it's a real business, though, even if you're loosing money on it. Oh, and remember to file the right tax forms to keep out of trouble.
A friend of mine in the USA lost the race on the "tenure track" to be a Professor at the university. Horror, shame, yuk, etc. Several years on, life looks sweet and there are roses to smell all over the place. It shows that a year in Australia (many years ago) might just have rubbed off, after all!
Looking at space, radio, science and computing from a 'down-under' amateur enthusiast perspective.
...early '80s, bad economy, and the "reason for leaving" part of my last four jobs were: employer went under, employer bounced paychecks on me repeatedly, employer declared bankruptcy, and project ended.
I was interviewing with a prospective employer who looked this over and said, "Looks like you've had a run of bad luck."
"You could look at that way," I said. "But I think it might have been how I was choosing my employers." I explained to him how I was very good on some outmoded equipment, and maybe the reason I was picking so many losers was because I was looking for people who were using equipment that might suggest they didn't know what they were doing. (I had already learned that he did not use that equipment.)
Then I told him why I thought the equipment he was using was better (big difference: it had these things called "hard drives"), why I thought that was the future of the industry, and why I wanted to learn how to use it. Then I asked him some straightforward questions about his business, which he was able to answer quite confidently.
I explained that I was willing to work at trainee's wages on this better equipment even though I had several years of experience (if I had the chance to work at a well-run business). He was so complimented by my willingness to work for him (once I had explained that I was looking for a better employer) that he offered me 12 percent more than I asked for. A few years later I moved out west. A few years after that the "project ended" company moved to the same city. They offered me a great job, and I worked with them for a few years. Then they went under, and I started my own business by picking up a few of their customers and made a million bucks.
Anybody who tells you to lie is a fool. State the truth in the most positive light you can put it and hope for the best.
You don't want to work for anyone who would hold your situation against you, anyway.
Eternal vigilance only works if you look in every direction.
I guess it's more common culture to actually keep a job, but just read /. all day.
Work addiction is in indeed the hallmark of successful people. It is NOT, however, all hallmark of happy people.
Having been laid off myself, I realize that it usually has nothing to do with the ability or character of the individual in question; when, in the past, I have been in the position of selecting new hires, I can say that having been laid off did NOT give me a negative impression of the candidate.
And all it means if you have worked for a number of smaller or less stable companies, and been laid off a number of times, is that you are willing to take a little risk.
Consider this: being laid off, or currently unemployed, means that you can start immediately. That frequently is a big plus...
I have found this mindset to be generally the norm.
Bottom line; you need make no apologies about being laid off. Good Luck!
In this age of Enron corporate malfeasance, prospective employees come under more scrutiny than ever before. Even 20 years ago, companies got to know a lot more about you than you got to know about them. It's called the golden rule; those who have the gold, make the rules. If an executive lies, cheats and steals, he advances and becomes rich. If you lie, you're toast. It ain't fair. It never was and it's getting worse.
So, what do you do? Write it up as succinctly as possible and hand them that when they ask or memorize it and say it to them. That way, you're telling it the same way to everyone and you're prepared for a tough interview question.
Wansu, th' chinese sailor
"highest standards"
heh, don't even mention it. Have you ever been to Japan?
Well, the negitive connotation comes from the evil things that most liberals support. I'm sure the devil doesn't like being called evil either. Its not as if you are trying to be evil, its just blind ignorance. I am also not saying tha conservitives are not evil, because Heaven knows many of them support the same evil. Its just that liberals are more honest.
I read a lot of resume's, and this sort of stuff is very common...particularly during the dotcom boom/bust. I really don't pay attention to the history so much any more (as job loyalty and employer stability has been blurred with other less fortunate outcomes) and I really focus on someones character, attributes, and contributions.
These things all promote your experience and talk a lot more about someone than what an employer can reasonably gather from the employment history.
Goals are deceptive - the unaimed arrow never misses.
...after 2 1/2 years, shortly after the product I was working on shipped...
...a period of job seeking followed by a five week period of employment, followed by the current job seeking...
If you call that bad... man... You're living in a privileged world...
We've got an Open Source project called Gemsites, a standards-compliant slashcode clone. It's not church, but we really need people!! I will write pre-dated recommendation letters for a small fee! :-)
taking advantage of state benefits (except in the form of tax-breaks) shows your willing to parasite off of tax-payers
I read "state benefits" to refer to unemployment, not welfare, medicaid, food stamps, et cetera.
Unemployment is an insurance that you (and your employer) pay to cover you if you lose your job. How much you get out of it is directly related to how much you put into it. There are no tax payers paying for you here, its insurance (and in some cases, a few states have the unemployment system privatized.)
Any advice to a soon-to-be-fresh grad on researching those positions to determine which are to my liking?
Tell the interviewer that despite your project being cancelled and you facing an unemployment gap, you will prevail. Tell them that you're determined to succeed and that you're willing to leap peaks and valleys to make it happen.
Look how far you've come and look at how far you would have fallen had you not kept going. I believe that there's no challenge that can't be overcome.
If a problem doesn't have a solution, you're going to find that out because you had the motivation, ambition and persistancy to look for the answer. Believe in yourself and you will prevail.
for different reasons. Basically I've been a contractor for 15+ years. Sometimes their are gaps in time. Before the market bust, employers use to be concerned maybe you were in prison !! Now a days, one year or more of unemployment just gets a nod from the interviewer. I'm glad my wife is workin'. Unemployed since Nov '03.
-reid
-- www.globaltics.net
Political discussion for a new world
No more negative connotation - more like litigious b##tard connotation..
..
Wait
liberal==litigious bstrd...
hmmmmm
Some folks I know worked at a tech company that earned such a poor reputation, they leave that time blank. When asked what they did during that time, they would rather say "Gay porn" than admit to the company they worked for. It's more respectable that way...
- MaineCoon
Hunt your preferred prey at Aliens vs Predator MUD. Join the war at avpmud.com port 4000
Never, and I mean never put the exact date on work experience. I always use the year and leave it at that. Nobody asks questions. and the work experience flows. See my resume! [jeffreymorgenthaler.com]
Noone else who worked with me still works there so I can't use them for reference either
Who says you can't use them? My last 3 companies don't even exist. That doesn't mean I don't have any references. Give out the names of those you worked with regardless of whether they still work there. If the prospective employer wants to verify that you actually worked there, they will call HR, not your old boss.
Oh, and here I thought that it was slavery and having other people do the work for free that led America there. Silly me!
To break the trend, I did a few other short contract positions (including two done charitably (read 'For Free')). That let me talk about having done a handful of short-term jobs (true) and deciding that I was happier in long-term salary work (also true). Presto, bad stint becomes invisible!
Twice, filling out security clearance paperwork, I've had to explain that 3 month nasty. Both times, I just throw out the facts as I see 'em. I DEFINITELY don't stretch the truth on these questions. When someone follows up, I verbally provide *my view* of what happened. They shrug and say something like 'I told them it was nothing', and I never hear about it again.
That's for questions worthy of background checks. For generic jobhunting, I've read enough resumes to resign myself to believing that most people's resume's are like silly putty. Stretch all you want, as long as they ultimately fit the framework.
By the way... that employer went belly up. Gotta love Karma.
Not take your unemployment benefits when you're laid off? Not take the public highway? And not a buy a house unless you have 100% of the cash for it?
Remember, those last two items are heavily subsidized by the State. You may not have bought a house lately, but I'll assume you're using the public road infrastructure? Right? Doesn't that make you a parasite as well?
averaging 3 yrs per job myself. If you get along OK with the hiring man or general manager (in my case) during the interview and then follow through with good performance, the contents of your resume will become less relevant.
C|N>K
Simple. Be honest...It'll be worth it in the end.
Strange that every exhortation to be honest seems to give honesty as a means to an end in employment. I'd recommend honesty because it's virtuous.
Belloc
I got more rhymes than Jamaica got Mangoes.
Which is all the more reason to emply somebody who hasn't been working for a year ;-)
In most places, even if you're an "at will" employee, they need "grounds" if they don't want their unemployment premiums to go up, and sometimes they like to have "grounds" just in case you file a discrimination lawsuit or something.
But I'm with the parent poster on this one, volunteering to be fired before the trouble begins is a very healthy attitude.
A friend of mine was at a company for 2 years, the company crashed,
he took another job at a consultant company, when he started to work there he realized the company was going down the drain (1 of the 15 consultants had a project, the others were sitting around, apparently they had hired loads of people because they "were supposed to get a big contract")
after three months he managed to find another job, worked there 5 months and then they laid him off because they had economical problems,
after that he had trouble finding jobs and ended up taking a job he really didnt want in lack of anything else, two weeks after he started there one of the companies he had applied to came back to him with a really cool job offer...he quit instantly and took that good job, he was happy for 1 year and now that company has large economical problems and he will be laid off....
now, no matter how understanding anyone is, they really start to wonder what is wrong with this guy, I mean, his CV is so chopped up that it is ridicilous "it cannot be just bad luck".
no employee are willing to take a chance with this guy, I am quite sure about it, he only has got one chance: lie and try to cover up, remove the jobs he was for just a few months and tell a story "yeah, and then I decided that when I start work again it would probably a long time until I would have time off again, so I decided to travel around US (or any other country that is not to exoitc and that you can tell a bit about in case they ask questions) for three months, that has always been my dream"
If you are working for SCO quite before the sinking ship pulls you down with it.
"Fighting terrorists with millitary might is like killing a mosquitor on your Dad's forehead with a rifle."
luck, but that you work in a bad system. Free
capitalism is not all that it is touted to be,
and its functioning depends on enough people like
you willing to be roadkills.
Mind you, I am not saying that you should run
in the street tossing Molotov cocktails. I am
not saying that you should revert to communism.
But you should
and twist a few arms of the monied aristocracy
that rules your country.
I'll do the same in mine
Paai
Don't waste your time--it's not even valuable experience if you only lasted there for a few weeks.
Leave it off the resume, and tell them you moved out to California because you thought there were better job prospects out there.
Say you went on a trip around the country, to see what your country has to offer. Here in Australia, that can take several months.
Pefect excuse, and easy to bullshit about.
Third of Nine
Well, um, yes.
(this is very diluted; inaccuracies are for clarity)
In "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism," Weber noted that the idea of a "calling" in many Protestant churches when coupled with an ingrained frugality almost inevitably led to the accumulation of wealth. So by dutifully serving one's calling, he couldn't help but amass a respectable fortune. Wealth became an indicator for- or at least coreqisite to- piety; "work" in America retains this character so dogmatically adopted by its puritan heritage.
(this is one of the reasons Europeans simultaneously dislike Americans for their materialism and religious zeal, a dichotomy Americans dismiss as a contradiction)
Social institutions in Europe were largely Catholic for centuries; what Nietzsche called a "philosophy of death" (for promoting behavior contrary to the interests of the organism) ironically provides some mitigating forces on the "pursuit of interest." Taking a year for yourself is more than laziness or sloth; to Americans, it borders on blasphemy.
There's an old saying, largely out of fashion: "The Protestant eats well; the Catholic sleeps well." Replace the former with "American" and the latter with "European," and we might modernize it.
Your history shows instability amongst the previous employers (hence the layoffs). This is a strong argument for you to ask _what future this company can offer you_. In fact, put it in writing - a big fine in case you choose to depart, but also in case the company cares to kick you out ;-)
Anyway, all the other prerequisites apply too ofcourse, so make sure you look good - we've learned it makes about 90% difference....
What is being sucessful?
Money or having a good meaningful life?
I rather have just enough money( I don't spend much) and a lot of time to do what I want (like bicycling around the world).
Free market capitalism teaches us that there is no such thing as "bad luck." You simply didn't work hard enough and were not valuable enough to keep around in the first place.
The purpose of layoffs is to get rid of lazy and useless workers like yourself.
Getting any old job just to put it on your resume to record you're working is stupid. No, it is moronic. It doesn't mean you are a go-getter. It doesn't mean you are desirable. The moron that suggested that is totally from another planet. (Jerk!)
... try going back to school for ten years and becoming a chemist.
It's real easy, people. Face it, if you got all sorts of little rug-rats and a slouch of a wife sitting home screaming, "Feed me! Feed me!," all the time then you got no chance. You also got no choice. You're gonna hafta go out there and suck up.
Now, you were smart enough to get into computers. Stay smart enough to be celibate.
Abstinence, boys!!! Save us all the stench of your clones running around. The world's too crowded as it is.
In the meantime if you want something to do
Or better yet, try some spam!!!
It's not a negative reflection on you: in fact, it's a reflection that you're willing to take on the employer's best interests: the fact that they dumped you after 5 weeks seems like poor planning on their behalf. Just describe it like it is.
It's easy to omit the short employment periods without leaving conspicuous gaps by listing employment periods by year instead of using actual dates.
It is perfectly legitimate to leave out some of the places where you worked. I have to leave out a few things to keep my resume in reasonable length. This is not because I have worked in so many places but because there are two where I prefer to put more details about specific projects and achievements.
Stop worrying about the risks of nuclear power and start worrying about the risks of not using nuclear power.
Called going walkabout, isn't it?
As reduntant as this is, I agree with those that say you are fortunate enough to come to the interview.
:)
At one place where I sent my application, I never heard back from them. It was 2 months later when I was at that business and speaking with the manager that he gained a better understanding of me. I mentioned that I had applied for the job and heard nothing back, and he went to his office to find my application. He came right back with it and said he'd set up an interview right away. 3 days and 2 interviews later I had the job. It turns out he never contacted me when I applied because of a 6 month gap between my last job and the current time. Just from speaking with me though in a matter of minutes, he had a good feeling on the type of person I am and could be to the company.
I believe honesty is a key factor in anything. Be honest and be straightforward. Explain without bias and/or resentment what exactly happened just as you would like someone you'd interview to explain to you.
You said it yourself: bad luck on a resume. No need to work around it. Embrace it and use it to your advantage. G'luck
"During the interview, have many, many questions." Very important. Have a list of questions ready. "How do you prioritize between social skills and technical skills when you hire someone?". "How is the company doing?". "What sorts of pension funds and health insurance do you offer to your employees?". "Do the employees socialize outside job functions?". That sorta thing.
This will look good to the potential employer - you are prepared, and you are also signalling that you are interested in finding a company that is right for you. It is also good for you, since you can often tell from the reply whether this is a good employer or not.
Stop the brainwash
Bullshit -- they know fucking well they're going to toss your ass back out on the street as soon as they come up with a new need, like the latest language fad they want someone pre-trained in. The last place I worked, they laid off fifty people in one day out one door and hired as many more in another door.
Been there, done that. Three years into the job, the BOD decided the guy who got the torch from the founders wasn't guy to lead them into the 21st century. So they hired someone out of Anderson Consulting. He brought in a bunch of cronies.
Within two years, the company's corporate principles (best I've ever seen and people proudly lived by them) had been "redefined" for us and all the quality of life components which many had hired on for were 95% taken back.
As I read what I've written here, I believe I should mention the outfit wasn't HP -- just plundered by the ethically-comatose in the same way.
Look, there's no need to apologize for what you've done if you haven't done anything wrong. Projects get cancelled... it's what happens in this line of work. Put down your relevant work experience, including that cancelled project if it's relevant. If/when it comes up in an interview, simply explain that the project was cancelled due to circumstances well beyond your control (assuming that's true) and that you're looking for an employer with somewhat more solid prospects. Tell them flat out that you're looking for an employer with more solid prospects than your last one, and ask them a question or two about the outlook for their business (in a completely interested, polite, and professional way, of course).
Here layoffs are permitted... But highly regulated by the state. People cannot just run-off people like that! Employers *ARE* responsible by its workers... But that's USA... ok... I simply abominate such situations. Stay cool people. Ricardo
Here in Norway it is a good thing to do other stuff than just work all your life. It's called 'experience'. If you and four friends travel around the world in a sailboat for a year, it means that you can handle stress, your are a teamplayer and a go-get'er. Here you are encouraged to think for yourself and be creative. Mindless drones do not get work in the IT-industry.
Insert `fortune -o` here
It's part of life. Either you're going to succeed or you won't. Either they're going to extend a job offer to you or not. Honestly, I think the decisions are made long before you even walk in the door.
I've tried everything. I've tried tailored resumes. I've tried semi-tailored resumes. I've tried generic resumes. I've tried sending out to hundreds of companies. I've tried sending out to a large set of specialized companies (a few years later). I've tried applying only to a particular class of position (most recently). I've tried being gently honest. I've tried being brutally honest. I've tried sweeping the unpleasantries under the rug. I've tried ignoring the fact that unpleasantries exist. I've tried being casually conversational. I've tried being strictly businesslike. I've tried a gentle mix of the two. I've tried the dedicated employee approach. I've tried the all-around human being looking for a life approach.
I think you get the point.
Honestly I really feel that, whatever the laws are (like, really, what are you going to do about it? hire a lawyer? if you're looking for a job you can't afford a lawyer), corporate human resource departments do all of their checking, cross-checking, contacting, counter interviewing, and astrological spreads the moment they see your resume. Once that piece of paper is in their hands they call anyone and everyone that they can.
Here's a tip: Human resource departments have national databases just like any other department or industry. It may be brutal but employees are a commodity. I wouldn't be surprised if, at a given level and in some form, employees are traded around like stocks and bonds. One could set up a system of brokers and distributers. Sometimes a broker will land a job for a known bad employee just to ship a block of more profitable employees someplace else.
So just be yourself. Show up at the interview prepared with the properly evasive answers. They ask what happened at the last job you look them straight in the eye, nonchalantly, and say "It didn't work out." No more, no less. The interviewer will try to stare you down. Stare back. Don't stare back antagonistically. Stare back like he could tell you to die on the spot and you wouldn't give a good g--d--n. Blink once or twice, about 15-20 seconds apart. If he presses the issue you need to have several properly evasive answers ready. Keep them at one line each to let him know that he's not going to get anywhere with the topic AND that he's not going to provoke an emotional response from you. Prove to them that you're willing to leave it all in the past and move forward.
So don't sweat it. If your last employer screwed you over big-time (*ahem* 46607 L460r4+0r|3s), you're broke, $50k in debt, homeless, and spent the last 3 months camping in the Yukon for lack of any better ideas, that's just the way life goes. I've been there. Financially, I'm still there. I have an employer again (finally) and if they piss me off, bust my balls, or if I don't meet their corporate standards then I have no problems walking down the highway with my thumb out again. That's the attitude you need to keep because, if you don't, you're going to spend the rest of your life jumping from one small company to the next where the CEO sees you as nothing more than a sack of meat to put his next product on the market. He gets fat, you get the shaft, and the next HR rep you interview with browbeats you with what you don't know.
Sometimes that's just the way life goes.
Steven
+++ATHZ
+++ATHZ 99:5:80
Fuck if I know what to put on a resume to cover lack of work. My reason for being out of work for almost a year always seemed to be met with a certain amount of Skepticism by the interviewer. With a degree in engineering and more certifications than I could mention, I finally gave up. Afte a nasty lay-off and a long period of not being able to find a job, I finally gave up on tech. I was sick of sitting in interviews and having to explain why I was out of work so long. I would interview for jobs which were a $10k cut in pay from my last job and I was overqualified but still get rejected. Most other jobs wanted people who could fix all of the companies computers while solving advanced calculus and washing the CEO's car. After a dozen interviews which all resulted in rejection letters, I finally changed careers. I'm now in sales and making more money than any single shithead who sent me a rejection letter when I was out of work. I've finally found a career which involved getting paid for your work and not making someone else rich while getting shit on by a boss. If I want to pick up my wife for lunch tomorrow, I won't have to worry that I only have a 30 minute lunch break. No more fuck up dead end projects being dumped in my lap on a Friday afternoon. "Oh, I missed spending the weekend with my family so I could work on this and now it's no longer a priority?". My favorite is that I don't have to hear anymore bullshit about no raises because of lack of funds while the higher ups get raises. If I want a raise, I call more people. Life is good.
Layoffs? What's a layoff?
Brouhahahahahahahahaha!!!
To any company that has a full time HR department, it looks like you got hired after a long time of being a bum then didn't work out. And you didn't work out very quickly. HR people that read it that way will never even let the tech people see your name on a list.
HR departments aren't there to hire new people, they are there to filter. Can you trust your HR dept to filter? Thats why most good fortune 500 jobs are through contacts. Joe in IT tells the HR guy "we have a new position that going to open up and we want to hire Bob because we know he can do it".
Woah there buddy, I must have missed something. People on Slashdot WORK?
"Give a man a fire, he's warm for a day, set a man on fire, he's warm for life."
Or you might have been in jail, rehab, or something equally unappealing to a prospective employer. So if you do choose to bum around Europe for a year, be damn sure to keep hotel and travel receipts!
You know I ended up in rehab and it was probably the best thing I could've done. I am at a loss myself as to how to explain why I lost my last job. The situation is not so cut and dry as to assume I am a deadbeat. I was young and made poor decisions and took measures necessary to overcome my problems. But for some reason employers (specifically medium-large size) don't want to take the time/effort to consider the humanity of things. Even though I can show documentation of my recovery process. How should I deal with this situation?
I totally kicked ass at my job for the first 2.5 years at my last fulltime job. I had quite a plateful of work, and I realized something. My recreational drug use (pot or alcohol) started growing out of control because of work related stress. I started slipping a little, and I felt incredibily guilty about it which helped make matters worse. I was in constant communication with my boss about working out a way to help reduce stress by maybe helping share responsibilities with others in the group, etc. But in the end nothing lasting happened and I crashed and burned. Literally, I was fired. As I mentioned above, I've gone through treatment/therapist and have documentation for it. I resigned myself to consulting jobs, of which I've done many and have good references. But a good amount of my experience is from my last fulltime job. So I lose if an employer wants to contact my boss from my last job.
Nothing on your resume is bad until you make it sound bad. Simply explaining the situation is the best thing you can do, even better if you can show how you learned/benefitted from it, or how it gave you an opportunity to adapt to change.
Whining or assigning blame is the worst.
We know developpers are the greatest group of people to arrive to this planet since Jesus the Crhist himself.
We should worship them as we are not worthy to be in thier presence.
May we receive their blessed code.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Most folks seem to have commented on the resume, but not on the interview, so I'll mention that.
Cutting through all the crap, interviews come down to just three things.
1. Do you want it?
2. Can you do it?
3. Will you fit in?
To re-introduce some of the crap...
1. Do you want it?
An employer wants to be sure you're actually interested and willing to commit to the company.
2. Can you do it?
They need to know that you are capable of doing the job they have in mind. Note that the job spec and the real job are two different things, so part of the interview process is where you help them by explaining what they're looking for (i.e. describe the job in terms of your skills and experience).
3. Will you fit in?
This is THE important one... bear in mind that assuming they've gone to the expense of getting you in for an interview you've pretty much convinced them of 1 and 2 already.
In the long term, your integration will affect your motivation to stay, your capability to do the work, and you'll also affect these factors in the other employees.
So, if the interviewer doesn't like who you appear to be, you can pretty much forget it.
However, if you've had some bum luck with employers, it just doesn't matter. If you're pissed offdisappointed because of your redundancy, it's OK to show it: it illustrates that you'd committed to a job but the management, or the board, or the economy, or an infinite number of factors outside of your control screwed things up for you; and yet, you're still fighting, covered in crap and smelling terrible, but you've not given up.
Now *that*, for an employer is a jigsaw-completing quality - determination and spirit are invaluable. Show this at an interview and your redundancy just got you your next job.
boakes.org
God does not play dice with the universe. your a fuck up.
I can telly you from sitting on the employer side of the interview table that 99% of candidates have had bad luck. If they had good luck, they would not be looking for a job at age 45! Most interviewers know this and so they are trying to sort out the good people from the people that have bad luck for a reason. As you seek your job:
* Remember that everyone else has had bad luck!
* Figure out how to stand out from the other hard luck cases. Highlight your involvement in the community or using your time to help your family.
* Practice your story and make sure you accentuate the positive - what you got to do, etc. Be good an answering the hard questions.
* GET REFERENCES FROM THOSE SHORT TERM EMPLOYERS!
In the end, getting a job is easy:
* Have passable resume
* Get interview
* BE ON TIME AND LOOK GOOD!
* Sell yourself and don't game people by lying or embellishing the truth
* ASK FOR THE JOB!
* FOLLOW UP!
* Did I mention, FOLLOW UP!
-- $G
In a somewhat inexact ref.:
As dogbert says, anyone in charge of a miserable failure will automatically be the first option for the next important project. Because, now, they have more "experience".
Like most dogbert quotes, not only does it reflect reality, it does so timidly, even.
Have fun.
Here's how you should behave at a job interview. It's guaranteed to get you the job. ... I'll need to check on that about 50 years later. ....
(C = company guy, YOU = you).
YOU: I've come here to save this company!
C: ??!?? What makes you think our company needs to be saved?
YOU: Well, it's obvious that it's going down, because you don't have ME on your staff yet...
C: (smiling) That's an interesting point. And how do you think you can save this company? Do you have any skills that might be suitable for this position, any special qualities?
YOU: There are very few skills that I don't excel at. In fact, I can't think of anything that I can't do. I'm not sure about eternal life, though
I also have a lot of qualities that you've been dreaming to see in your employees.
C: Hmm.. Interesting... What are those?
YOU: One of my main qualities is modesty.
C: Aha...
YOU: Being so modest, it's hard to talk about my modesty. But just wanting this job proves how modest I am. Indeed, I could try harder, I could find something better than this company, with more potential and smarter management, but I don't need much... you know, as the saying goes: The pleasure is in the small things.
C: Ok, you've made your point. What else can you do, besides being modest ?
YOU: Lots of things. I can program by dictating the hex, binary or octal instruction values to a typist while having sex. For any processor.
The only bug I've made was not a software bug at all, it was an error in the processor I've assembled from beach sand while on vacation.
Of course I can also program the Sissy way...
C: The Sissy way ?
YOU: Yeah, you know... C and the like. Writing in C is an insult to my intelligence, so I just main(){__asm{}} and start reciting the raw code values. It's poetry. And poetry it is: 5, 5, 5; 2c; 25. I'm even thinking of starting a hip-hop band.
O well, IT is only one of my specialties.. I can also chop trees, fly assault helicopters, perform brain surgery, investigate crimes, take care of things...
C: !!! Take care of things ?!
YOU: Yeah, you know... Burry people, track down customers, clean up, you name it.
C: OK! You are just what we're looking for!
Welcome to the team!
Say that you were hunting for vacations
The authour needs to do his homework. Gaps in employment may be shielded fairly well by using a functional resume format. I know this by experience because I have a second of two interviews by a company that I managed to get with a functional resume.
Transform your resume into one that places the highlight on your core skills as opposed to your work chronology. That chronology needn't be more than two lines per position at the very end of your resume. When a potential employer asks about your work gaps, above everything else, be honest!
- IP
Hmmm. OK this is off-topic... but hey...
I'm not sure about your order:
1. Abundant natural resources.
- very true; but Nigeria and South Africa are poor despite terrific natural resources, and Japan and HK are rich despite the opposite.
2. Slavery, followed by cheap immigrant labour.
- Re Slavery; it was much more prevalent in the *poorer* South.
3. A large population.
- Well... chicken and egg.
4. Good education.
- Comparatively, yes.
5. Capitalism.
- Definitely.
6. A government willing to use its muscle (military and economic) to get its way.
- America's international importance was growing even when it was isolationist (in the '30s, etc.)
Can I reorder:
1. Capitalism
2. Education
3. A constant supply of new workers (migrants)
4. Natural resources
5. A government willing to through it's weight around.
--- My dad's political betting
As a lot of tech people have, you'd think this wouldn't be a big issue when interviewing. Afterall, you've made it as far as the interview, so obviously there's something on your resume to warrant the interview.
What I've done in the past is honestly explained what transpired. People are human, and can relate.
Now, had you been removed from the company property under security escort and barred from ever returning to company property, then you'd have a problem explaining the situation.
The trick is to come across as human. Don't bitch about how they moved you 1500 miles and then laid you off (not saying you do).
I've been the victim of layoffs at three places in the last 4 years - one at Dell when the bubble popped (I was a contractor in transition to full-time and didn't get hired on before it popped) and two other places -- one that closed completely and the other that went from 200 employees to under 10.
I managed to land an interview at my current place of employment (we're wholly owned by an insurance company, so there's oodles of money here) and beat out 200 other candidates for my position. When asked, I was honest about what happend to cause the blemishes on my resume and repeatedly stated I was looking to stay at my next place of employment for at least 5 years (if not longer). Apparently that meant something -- My 2 year anniversary is this next September.
So, be honest, be sincere, and ensure them that the layoffs were no fault of action or inaction on your part.
Cruising the internet on my TI-99/4A @ a whopping 300 baud!
Sounds to me like you need to spend more time researching the companies you want to work for...
I list it accurately and tell the truth about it if asked. That means I have job endings including a pre-IPO start-up I bailed from when I spotted the vultures circling, one I left because of lousy management, one I left because of incredibly poor IT infrastructure, some because of layoffs due to economic downturns, getting declared "redundant" after a merger, a couple of "project was cancelled", and some "project had a sudden goal change and I was no longer a good fit".
No one has been upset to see them, nor have they questioned the wisdom of my actions.
If asked about "are there any positions you left off your resume, I say "Yes, either because it was short and irrelevant just to pay bills, or because I have no wish ot EVER do it again and if it's on the resume I keep getting asked to do it". Again, it doesn't seem to be a problem.
from "Raising Arizona" - only then it was "ourselves"
Yes, Interviews can be enjoyable: think of them as an opportunity to meet new people with interests similar to your own, where it is perfectly polite to talk mostly about yourself.
Explain it like this: "Due to my talents I tend to work on cutting-edge projects. As you know, many projects that push the envelope don't pan out for many different reasons (finances, administrative committment, changing market forces, whatever). Be assured, I was never "fired" for cause or because I couldn't do what was asked of me. That's why I am excited about working on your project because I see that it will probably be a success."
Everyone knows that many projects and businesses fail. Turn it around to make it clear you want to kick ass on his/her project. If you have a good connection with the interviewer I would use that exact phrase "kick ass".
very true; but Nigeria and South Africa are poor despite terrific natural resources, and Japan and HK are rich despite the opposite.
Well, now, that's relative.
There are some very rich people in South Africa, rest assured. Africa's problems stem largely from colonization and the rape of their peoples and resources by European imperialists.
I can guarantee you that the average African (or average South American) works longer and harder and in poorer conditions than the average American. By your theory, what with Africa's resource abundance, they should be a superpower, too.
Capitalism is most certainly responsible for America's status, and the standard of life in America and elsewhere, but, this isn't something to be prideful about.
Capitalism's overall effect is the centralization of wealth in the hands of a few, accompanied by diminishing working conditions, epidemic unemployment, and diminishing quality of life for the majority. This is the stark and irrefutable truth.
No, the American middle class must work so that it is too preoccupied to act in its self-interest. The work ethic is promulgated for that purpose alone.
Tell them you've been working for the CIA for the last 5 years and you could tell them about it but you'd have to kill them.
I would rate yourt comment funny. American work style looks more like continued slavery for me: People work their whole life, no good social background, no longer holidays. Not a place where I want to be.
I went alomost 15 years and 4 different employers and was never laid off, then one day poof....... It's complicated, partly related to meger and partly related to outsourcing (not indian, just another co. in the US). Point was I was out of work for the first time since I graduated from college in '87. I was NOT prepared. I hope you never get laid off, but keep resume up to date and keep a whole address book of contacts in case you do.
So Long and Thanks for all the Fish.
The U.S. industrialized after Britain (enjoying 250 years of relative decline!), largely with British funds. Lots of defaulting later...
The government was also heavily involved in the developing economy. Land grants to railroads. Protectionism. If it was capitalism, it was of the cronyism kind.
I can't think of a country that has jump-started its economy following the IMF/World Bank precepts. My scalp itches for the tin-foil cap when I think of all those economists with advanced degrees pushing what doesn't work on desperate countries, in the face of decades of failure and abundant counter-examples. Could it be they like inducing poverty?
Then I think of medicine, which was for hundreds of years more dangerous than illness. Bleeding. Medicines made from mercury. It had the same theological nature as economics. Maybe there's hope for the dismal science yet.
Then I think of the economists I know, and I'm back to thinking along the plotlines of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"
You should explain that you made mistakes, didn't do enough research about the employers you worked for and took positions with high risk for being short term. Then you follow that by explaining that you wont be making that mistake again. Mean it.
. Quit playing Monopoly with Bill. Switch to one of many non-Microsoft products today.
One reason is that employers want employees who will stick around. It costs a lot to hire and acclimate someone.
As an employer, do I want someone who's prone not working for a year once he saves up enough money?
Especially if I'm paying you well. You may be living in your mother's basement for all I know and saving every cent you get for the next "year off."
If you've done it once, you'll do it again.
My brother is a big guy, in good shape. He was avidly recruited and, to put it bluntly, needed someone to impose some discipline on him. I think it was the last day or week of Boot Camp that they gave him one last chance to "come clean" about any previous drug use, and he took it.
Boy, did he regret it. (There was a lot, of various and scary substances.) They kept him, but tagged him as a shitbird. I visited him at Boot Camp and he was completely motivated. He actually regretted not signing up for the longer tour. That was before the little conversation. Their perception changed, their treatment changed, his performance changed. He lost his enthusiasm and they lost someone with real potential.
His timing sucked, too. A month after his advanced training (the stuff you do to learn how to do your job, as opposed to the basic shit) Saddam revised Iraq's borders south. THey must have thought, "O.k., who hasn't had time to forget how to do this stuff...He was shipped to Saudi Arabia in August 1990 and didn't get home until five months or so after the shooting was over.
My resume is functional rather than chronological. I don't have gaps to cover up, I just have a lot of similar experience across years and jobs. It makes no sense to restate it repeatedly. Granted, I didn't think of this myself. My wife is a professional resume writer, so I had just a bit of help.
I've known just about as many people who've taken gap years after graduating as have taken gap years between school and uni, one being my girlfriend, right now..though these people have yet to enter the working world.
I'm not sure that everyone is as intolerant as you say. While I was on placement with a Big Telecoms company last year, I met a great guy who had dropped out of uni to travel once, worked for a while, and then gone off travelling again before starting work there.
I may have a spell of wanderlust when I graduate this year, hope I don't get first-hand experience of this intolerance!!
But employers don't like resume gaps. They will want to know what you were doing in that time.
I've never understood that impression. Why does everyone think employers want to know what you were doing at all times in the past few years? Isn't the point of listing jobs actually to describe your prior work experience? What do gaps say about prior work experience? If you weren't working or training during a gap, then you weren't gaining experience, but you weren't exactly losing it either.
IMHO, an interview is a limited-time opportunity for you to convince a
potential employer of your strengths. Avoid spending time on subjects that
make YOU feel awkward. If you feel awkward, as you do, the interviewer
will sense it.
The best thing to do in this situation is quickly explain: "The company
changed it's priorities shortly after I started work, next question
please..."
Now you have more time in your interview to talk about your previous
long-term employment.
--x
I am an American, I hear all the crap all the time about how people might have been disloyal or otherwise screwed up a job. I hear from employers this stuff about cost of employment etc
The problem with me believing any of it is just this. I have been an employer and I know what the game is. Employers are being horses asses. Rather than actually being loyal and team players they are trying to run slaves. They view anybody who does anything other than work all the time as trouble. In actuality they have no loyalty to workers what so ever. What they are seeking is a position of Extortion over them.
The sad fact is that it has nothing what so ever to do with earning a living or profit etc. It is in fact very counter productive. But then it is just like their obsession over holidays and vacations
Europeans and Auzies love their holidays etc. They produce just as much and have fun doing it. The Americans are in a death race. (I from and in the USA) Our productivity is rising dramatically 12.5% this year. Our wages are dropping and our employment is dropping. If we continue this much farther nobody here will have a job. We have to go to higher Vacations and Holidays etc just to keep our economy from collapsing from OVER SUPPLY OF GOODS.
For those economic types who don't get it. Production can grow about 3% per year (against population) and be absorbed into the economy without displacements. If it grows faster than that the whole process then locks into a ratio of the Productivity Wages &population. In 2004 with 12.5% productivity growth and 3.5% population growth with a 3% slack the system got over pushed by 6.5% and the wages per person in the USA dropped by about 5.5% (See the US IRS Tax data if you doubt this.) The remaining slack of 3 years of this charged up over supply of goods came out in the near 50% slide in the value of the dollar and rising unemployment.
The solution here is to either print enough money for the goods to be taken up (Which will go into the unearned income of the CEO's) or to raise the wages of the working people or to increase their benefits such as holidays.
Raising wages or giving benefits actually ups company earnings because the market gets better. The problem here is that companies don't want employees to actually be free to enjoy their life. Sorry but Americans need to wake up to the reality here. (Look at CEO Pay if you doubt the ability to finance this exists)
Never Politically Correct ~ I prefer the facts If you don't like what I say, get a life, or comment yourself.
Hi Dodger... There are two ways I would address your particular situation when preparing a resume and addressing this in a subsequent interview: 1. Identify the stints as "short term contract positions", and explain the situation in more detail when you are interviewed -- something to the effect of "I am not afraid to take on new challenges and seek innovative opportunities. It was an interesting position to be in, but now I am seeking more permanent employment with a reputable and established company." 2. Lump the two jobs within the same time period, i.e. 2002 - 2003, and reflect it as "Short term projects". Ideally, your position title will have been relatively similar. View your situation as adding potential value to your next employer. We've all experienced bad luck in our job choices at one point or another, and employers know that in the end, it makes us better and more reliable employees. Through my work as a resume consultant, HR folk have shared with me that it's hard to find people who aren't afraid to use their discretion, take the initiative and try new things. Especially in your situation, it sounds as though you didn't make a bad decision based on lack of judgement; it was just being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Good luck in your job search!
You are not alone in observing this. Here in Canada, we have a saying about this;
Because money is the new God. Sad but true. I'm sick of corporate culture and the stifling of "real life" that it preaches.
I have a five month gap in my employment. At my last interview, I was asked about it. I informed them (truthfully) that after leaving my last job, I spent one month finishing a class I was in at the local community college, and that I then took three months to relax and thoroughly play through Fallout:Tactics before resuming my job hunt.
The three interviewers just nodded-- even though this wasn't a gaming company. I got hired without any problems.
//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
IMHO there is no right or wrong way to approach this. There is always a temptation to lie and you may find that you can get away with lying, but how can you be sure your next potential employer won't find out?
I've been in a similar situation. I accounted for gaps in my employment record with total honesty. I tended to use positive phrases such as "Seeking Employment" as oppsed to just "Unemployed". If you've done any training in jobless periods, say so as it can only help improve your appearance to a potential employer. Recruiters have to be realists, people do get made redundant, its a fact of life.
No matter what you may think, lying can have dire consequences. Especially now with the companies like Equifax offering the employment market equivilent to credit referencing.
Its a two way process. Would you consider a company that recruits people who lie to be a company that has a good future? I'd prefer to work for a comany which makes sure its employees are suitably qualified and experienced.
A good example of the hazzards of lying would be with a company used to work for. A new guy started as a VB developer. After two days someone from HR came down to speak to him. They went off in to a break out room. He was escorted out five minutes later in tears, while someone else cleared his desk for him. Turns out he'd been less than honest on his application. He had been found out because someone who used to work for the comany he had claimed to have worked at, mentioned in passing "I don't remember him". A few phone calls were made and he was out the door.
Honesty will always pay off in the end.
The problem is that if you take off for longer than a week in the US, your job will probably be offshored to India by the time you get back.
I had the same problem, for a couple of months I work with a ISP. They wan't me to sysadmin until they see that I can code too soo more and more things to do start caming... The short version: They askme to do everything that I already told them before start working and even that, they ask me if they can pay me less WTF! So I quiet, and yes, there is a black hole in my resume, but I do what every mental-sane person will do: I lie. I never work for them if you may ask ;-)
>Linux is not user-friendly.
It _is_ user-friendly. It is not ignorant-friendly and idiot-friendly.
Be up front with them. It isn't your fault that a project you were working on either ended or was terminated and/or your employer made a bad decision. Bad things happen to good people. A quik call to these employers would indeed confirm your resume to be accurate. Everyone feels the pinch of todays economy, I'm sure at one time or another the interviewer themselves may have been or have known someone in a similar situation. Be honest, you have nothing to hide!
I wish you the best of luck in your search. CHEERS mate
I am Bennett Haselton! I am Bennett Haselton!
Offtopic means it's not pertinent to the article. Your post wasn't pertinent to the article, and it looked designed to cause a reaction. You don't get to make offtopic, flamebait posts just because you throw in a little "material" as well.
Really, it's a legitimate point. Business-oriented interviewers understand that more companies fail than succeed. It's a very valid thing to point out that you were willing to take a risk on something you felt was worthwhile, and even a 5-week stint can teach you something.
No one should be critical of you for falling down. They should only be critical if you didn't bounce back. How is it a negative to say "even after my first layoff, I kept my head together enough to find another job, move cross-country and try again."
Or as Grampa Simpson relates...
"I think Rudyard Kipling said it best: If you can make one heap of all your winnings and risk it all on one turn of pitch-and-toss, and lose, and start again at your beginnings, and never breathe a word about your loss, yours is the earth is everything that is in it, and, which is more, you'll be a man, my son."
Amateurs discuss tactics. Professionals discuss logistics.
Read more carefully, stop assuming and exaggerating other people's points.
Being honest with your (hopefully) future employer is the best way to start a new occupational relationship. Every company, especially any dealing with IT, knows how harsh the market has been the last few years. They'll understand the situation well. What will make the difference is how you reacted to those situations and in what frame of mind it has left you. Are you bitter with your past companies for what occured? A new place won't want a vengeful or bitter employee because they'll eventually do something unpleasant. Be honest, describe your experiences briefly. Gloss over the negative aspects or just stay away from them completely. Instead turn it around into a more positive learning experience. What did you gain from it? "As others left, I was assigned their tasks. This gave me more opportunities to prove myself, allowed me to learn other duties, and challenged me to manage my time more actively." I was in the same boat as you. I finally just brushed all the bad experiences under the rug and concentrated on what I gained. Good luck to you.
does any of that have to do with the fact that those who get government-benefits in the form of payouts are the beneficiaries of robbery? How does his situation change the fact that robbery is wrong? If The State is giving him money -- be it for unemployment, welfare, whatever -- then he is benefitting from the robbery of others (to be differentiated from him receiving a tax-break, in which case, he isn't being stolen from as much as he was before).
The following example may help illustrate my point. If there's a robber in our neighborhood who steals 50% of everyone's salary every week, and he gives me $100 of the money he stole, I am the benefiary of theft. Accepting that money would be immoral. On the other hand, if he offers me an option such that he only steals 25% of my salary, then I am not the beneficiary of theft, but rather am not being stolen from as much.
social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen
As a young woman in the second year of my career, I think it's because the very competent techie women tend to be more introverted than average. The best programmer (by far) on my team is a 30-something woman with abysmal fashion sense (I want to take her shopping). Talking to her by herself, she's warm, open and gives great advice and is very encouraging. In meetings, she's terse and a bit blunt. She thinks company politics are absolutely ridiculous and has as little to do with them as possible. Fortunately (for her, not for the rest of us), she has no desire to ever manage people.
On the other hand, our project's former project manager was very nice to our faces, but the coder-gal and I both sensed that she really didn't like us. She seemed to prefer the men on our equivalent levels for the more interesting tasks. As I said, she is the best programmer on the team, and the rest of the team acknowledges this. I'm on par with the other junior personnel.
Women over about 30 or so weren't brought up to compete in the work force. I sure wasn't, and I'm only 24 (but was raised in the South). I think we imitate the most blatant competitive manuevers we see around us, appending them to how we did learn to compete socially. Women like my brilliant co-worker, and to some extent, myself, didn't take much of an interest in the social competition, so are fairly unarmed either way. My previous boss, however, had some finely-honed social competition skills to which she added what she perceived to be traditionally-male workplace competitive skills (and some good, old-fashioned taking a bit of credit for the work of others). Result? Said boss got promoted by all-male upper management.
Superficial, catty female managers can be pegged to an originating source: superficial, political male upper managers who were impressed by this behavior. There haven't been women in widespread positions of power for all that long.
Stop trying to find a job and go create one. Start your own business and run it for a year or two. One good medium-term contract or three short-term ones will take care of you.
You'll find that your lifestyle will actually improve. Your income will go up. What's more, forever after, you will always have the added confidence of knowing that you are not dependent of the whims of beancounters for your survival.
That confidence will shine through in interviews.
Better still, when you show in an interview that you understand issues like cash flow, P&L, customer base, sales, etc. you will be viewed in an entirely different class. The few shorters you've got won't matter a bit.
"Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped." --Elbert Hubbard (1856-1915)
I second the parent comments about telling the truth.
My suggestion would be to focus on the accomplishments and knowledge gained while in the short stints. Companies generally do not lay people off for no reason. It's typically due to a slowdown, a reorganization or a project coming to an end. Try to find a brief, yet positive and truthful reason for the company to have laid you off. Write these things down and maybe even practice verbal communication about it to a friend... find a way to be confident and honest about everything you are communicating.
Come on people...suggesting dishonesty is just downright bad advice and hypocritical. You can't spend a whole discussion about how bad SCO is for lying and then suggest someone lie on their resume.
I was in the same sort of place. 1 year or work out of college, then a layoff. Then another year of work, then a layoff. Then 6 months of work, and a layoff. Then I was out of work for 7 months. But I found that, when approached with questions about this pattern, I just called myself the poster child of the dot-bomb economy. I also pointed out that I was really looking forward to "growing" with a company, which implies I wanted to stay in one place for a while - I think. In this economy, I think a lot of people understand this situation is less a reflection of an individual and more a sign of the times.
If you got to the interview then they are at least a little interested. Tell them the truth with just as you did here. Give them contact info for your bosses in at least one of the places that you worked. If they liked you than all is well
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
If you have some facet of your experience that you feel self-conscious about, you need to find aspects about that experience that turn it from a liability to an advantage. Today's job market is such that it is unreasonable for an employer to expect the same kind of stability as in the past. It is not an instability in you, but in the job market. It shows that you are flexible, you can "roll with the punches" and respond effectively to changing requirements.
Not to say that you ought to brag about it, but don't be ashamed of what isn't your fault. Answer questions frankly, don't prevaricate, don't apologize, don't blame (anyone, including yourself) and cast yourself in the role of someone dealing responsibly and creatively with the cards life has dealt you.
aliud est calare, aluid tacere
I had a weird experience with a first and only headhunter that I ever used. I did get the job but I think my so called trusty headhunter might have lied to get me into the position. I originally gave him my one page resume but during my second interview with the company, I noticed that one page has magically transformed into a seven page resume. Needless to say I did get an offer and I accepted it. As soon as I shook hands with the CFO who handed me the offer, he went into a 5 minute speech saying that I should have submitted a one page resume instead of a seven page resume. I was pretty shocked and scared during this second interview not knowing what this clown headhunter did to my resume. As a endnote, I did stay with the company for two years. The management was terrible but overall it was a good experience.
The only terrible thing the company did to me was reneged on their promise in paying for my IT Training and education. The CFO has final say in all these types of spendings so he went back on his word and HR wouldn't do anything about it. Some of the other management lifers who have been in the company 25+ years so what was happening to me and strongly suggested that I hire an attorney to deal with this joker. I was into the lawsuit trend so I went off and did the training on my own. I even went as far as going for my silly MS certs. I was accused of studying on the job which kinda was the last straw for me. Once I got all my idiotic certs, I decided to start looking for another job. Fast forward three years. The company was bought out by another huge company and at the end the company was shutdown for not making enough money. I was glad to get out of there when I had the chance.
After being in the workforce for almost 10 years, I found a lot of position with wrong job requirements. One job that I actually applied for stated flat out that you need to be a certified Novel engineer. I was pretty surprised that I got a call back since I had zero experience with Novel. I was even more surprised that I was hired for the position and that the company didn't even have a single Novel box in the building. It turns out that some clueless HR Drone padded up the wanted add with industry buzzwords. So don't be afraid to apply for a position even if you don't qualify for every listed req.
In his comment, he specifically said there's nothing wrong with taking advantage of state-benefits. I said there is. It is clearly not off-topic.
social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen
Easy answer... cater your resume to make it past screeners. Resume submissions are usually at least preliminarily sorted by HR people, then passed onto the hiring managers. Occasionally, if the manager is too busy they might pass a few off to their staff (team leads, etc.) to at least filter out yes or nor.
So, the question is then... at each step along the way, will they care about gaps? Two tricks I use: Just provide years but not months (ok for multi-year jobs), or provide a line item like January 2001-November 2002: Assorted consulting engagements. Then list a few of companies and positions as bullet points under that.
Now, for the interview, be prepared to answer questions about how you've spent your time. Make sure to cater the positions you are going to talk about to what is most important for the job, or most interesting to the interviewer. By this point, you will hopefully be impressive enough with your skills, experience, and manner that a spotty employment history with legitimate explanations (but not too much, definitely don't harp on it or point it out if not asked) will still get you hired.
I'm generally in favor of lying (at least exageration) on resumes... [joke: What does resume mean in French? Big Lies!] but companies now doing background checks will be able to find major lies. If filling out a job application (usually accompanied by a background check approval form), make sure you fill it out as acurately as possible. And make sure that can at least be compared to your resume. A lot of times applications will only ask for the 3 most recent employments. As long as those match your tax forms then you should be good to go.
Hope that helps!
--D
I've had 6 months before, but it didn't help. I used it up except for a month, and got anyjob before it completely ran out. A year latter I got a job in my field again, but before I could start replenishing my savings they went out of business. Now I'm down to 1.5 months in savings and unemployment. I tried, I had the replacement, but the downturn lasted more than 6 months and caught me more than once.
I sometimes wish I hasn't bought a house, I could have spent my money getting to Europe, and live there for a few months and take in some culture. (though I'm not sure if that would get me a job when I got back, and I'd need one badly when I got back) Still, that is life, you take your chances and do the best you can.
... to find the position that's right for you. You aren't even lying.
It was just forced, not voluntary. You can leave this part out.
That is just silly. If people here didn't work long and hard, then all the natural benefits of the land would have been of no use. This nation didn't grow like it has in such a short time because of people taking time off and enjoying life. It grew because of people working their asses off. If that isn't rather obvious to you from studying the history of the nation, then discussion is pointless. If you haven't studied the history of the nation, then your comment is a bit more understandable.
Also, slavery is a straw man, and presentism. It was used primarily in the south, for agricultural labor. It was a dying system, because it was highly inefficient. Mechanization would have ended slavery as an economic tool, sooner rather than later. Slavery's effect on the rapid growth of the US as a world power was quite minimal, as its use in northern industrialized states was quite minimal. Actually, I take that back... the civil war did lead to many military advances.
As for military muscle, it had to be ACQUIRED first. The United States was a relative military pipsqueak until the late 1800s. That muscle was acquired on the back of hard work, child labor, six day work weeks, immigrants working even more, and so on.
I will grant you though that our form of government and its promotion of capitalism worked hand in hand with hard toil. A lot of people were, and are, mistreated in the process. But that does not belie the underlying argument that without the so-called "American work ethic" the nation would surely not have turned out as it did in this little blink of time.
Larry
Gotta respond:
1. Abundant natural resources
Yeah, but we are not alone in that. For that matter, other countries could have bought those resources and made something with them.
2 Slavery, followed by cheap immigrant labour.
Slavery was strictly in the south. Not as useful a you might think, slaves eat year round, and were used mostly for farm work. Slavery was illegal on about half the land, the half that most of the population lived on. By the time the US was really making the big ecconomic gains slavery was illegal
Immigrant labour. Yes, but they did better themselves and their kids while working hard. We don't have it today, yet the US is still a dominate global power. Not that cheap labour isn't helpful, but it isn't enough.
3. A large population.
Not compared to Europe, China, or India. The first had the education to make something of their lives (I'm not sure how China and India fared historicly), and while they could have had cheap labour, since most of the immigrants came from there. There are still many areas on earth that can claim a larger population.
4. Good education.
Europe had it, or at least could have. So could most countries. I'm not sure if they did, but if so why wasn't it enough? If not, why not?
5. Capitalism
So why is everyone so willing to not use it? I agree it is a major factor. It is also a major reason that we still have a work ethic, you can get ahead if you work hard, if you don't work hard you won't.
6. A government willing to use its muscle (military and economic) to get its way.
When? You didn't see that until Vietinam, (maybe Korea) which happened well after the US was a global power. The US was dragged into both world wars, at the start of each we wanted nothing to do with them. Don't bring up the "Spanish-American war" which wasn't really a war, and the Spanish were still a major power at that time, and if they had tried over the years should have been a bigger power.
We get vacation in the US. At least 2 weeks to start with most jobs. They encourage us to take it too. Employeers know that people need to relax to work so they want us to take that time.
I'll grant we sometimes go too far. However many people have gone too far the otherway. Like the time we sent our project leader to the Europe branch for one afternoon (everyone needed his expertise). He spend 3 hours getting them setup for a demonstration, and just as he was about to start the important parts everyone left the office because it was quiting time. Nobody was willing to learn something useful for their job, by staying late just once! I consider that worse than workaholics. The workaholic will lose his family (if he even gets one).
I should perhaps be more exact, althought don't want to overcomplicate the issue. A gap the year before or the year after college isn't really an issue in the UK. However, 5-10 years into your career, so when you're in your late 20's or early 30's, a gap in your employment is seen as a problem, and a problem of any kind generally means your cv gets filed into the big black plastic bag. This occurs no matter how stellar your qualifications and achievements as unemployment is seen as a very negative indicator.
I recommend against misleading wording, which seems to imply something false. I've worked for the government, evaluating proposals, and evaluated student applications for aid at a university. If I thought that the applicant was trying to trick me, I treated that as an ethical failing, and was quite negative.
Of course, there's a fine line. You don't have to go out of your way to list negative things. However, being laid off a few times isn't negative, in this economy.
Finally these unethical tricks are forcing honest people to be quite explicit in their resumes. If I see a resume that says, "attended Harvard 1974-76", I assume that the applicant did not graduate but wants me to think that he did. You should say, "1976: BA, Harvard".
Finally, you never know how far back an employer will go. I started at the government in 2000. Six months later, a investigator called me to ask what campus I'd gotten my BSc at, back in 1973! (It was a multi-campus university, and I'd just listed the university, tho I'd been graduated from the most prestigious campus.)
Frankly, after about ten years experience very few companies want to hire you. Reasons:
1. They think you're too expensive
2. They think you will be a hard-ass
3. They think they can't control you, because you have been around the block and know the corporate bullshit. Which is true.
4. You are no longer idealistic and won't work OT much
5. You are smarter than the hiring manager, and he knows it
6. Your name is to easy to pronounce
7. If you were laid off and couldn't find a job in this crappy economy, then you must be really bad person.
8. Old people (over 40 maybe 35 these days) are lucky they are allowed to breathe.
9. You'll be bored.
10. Corporate medical insurance premiums raise drasticly with more older workers. (VERY TRUE AND COMPANIES HIRE BASED ON IT)
Halliburton bought the computer company I work for several years ago. Imagine what it feels like to have to work for the "scum-of-the-year" company on your resume. Hope the job lasts until retirement :-)
Posting anonymously for understandable reasons.
Over the past ten years, I have had very interesting and spotty history of employment. Many years as a (1099/Corp-to-Corp) consultant, but my longest W2 employment was with a government contractor who turned their back on me after two years of blood, sweat and tears. After that, being laid off, fired for no reason, and working for shit companies who eliminated employees by passing the buck until it landed on someone, and then fired them.
I have held positions in upper management, as a CEO, as the President of a company and as a consultant. What you need to remember is that companies are interested in good investments - understand that no matter how great the company seems, you walk around with a dollar sign on your forehead. That dollar sign indicates what they pay you in salary + bonus (total compensation) and in training and resources used. When interviewing, you need to make that dollar sign fade away and become a package of skills and experience (read: asset) instead of a dollar sign.
Now, this is sometimes kind of difficult. With my background, I can honestly say that a majority of my work has been consulting. I had no allegance to the company I was working for, they had none to me, wether it was W2, 1099, or Corp-to-Corp work - it was still consulting to me. Explaining your employment in terms of projects, not employers helps a lot.
Going back to the situation at hand, remember that the people you are interviewing with are humans as well. Some of them a bit more robot like and lacking in personality, but still humans. Most are able to empathize with your situation, if you got screwed - explain it. However a bit of make-up on the resume works wonders. For example, if worked for the same company, but they moved you, lump it all into one section and one data span, just identify multiple projects and locations.
If you have any further questions, shoot me off an email.
John Doe
*ign[j]ore*ign[doe]ore*[at]hush*com
I'm an employer. Honesty matters. You've done nothing to be ashamed of. Tell the truth. If you get caught in anything less than the total truth, then you probably won't be trusted ever again - despite any *good* explanation you have for your previous prevarication.
Your Resume/C.V. doesn't have to include every part of your employment history.
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This sig is inoffensive.
you have not worked in a feminine office.
it is rare that I encounter a manager that is any good.
that being said, poor female managers nitpick on meaningless crap and rule by emotion.
poor male managers micromanage irrelivent crap and rule by dominance.
If it means anything, when I was talking about the "healthy attitude" I was referring to the sibling post "...I'd volunteer to leave before anyone else, and I MEAN'T IT!!". I shouldn't have said parent post. It'd be nice if I stopped making mistakes when posting to Slashdot, but if I were you -- I wouldn't count on it.