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RFID Coming 'Whether You Like It Or Not'
VTBassMatt writes "According to an interview with Scott McGregor of Philips Semiconductor in BusinessWeek, RFID tags are coming whether we like it or not but of course won't affect our privacy. Choice quotes from the article include such gems as, '[P]rivacy concerns around RFID tags are a little like concerns about supermarket scanners years ago. When the laser scanners were coming out, everybody was saying, retailers are going to collect information about what you buy. And none of that happened.' Is that why I have two loyalty cards on my keyring and three more in my wallet?"
RFID may be coming, but its not exactly bursting out at least in the UK.
I investigated RFID for implementation within my company, but came up with
next to no suppliers, apart from one company who after several phone calls
'forgot' about the samples and paperwork they were meant to send. And I simply don't have the
time to implement from electronics up.
IMHO if someone wants to make some money on this, set up a company now, as no-one
else seems to have their act together with customer relations or advertising (yet).
I actually *wanted* to implement this, so imagine the chance someone who's indifferent,
or uninterested in this technology has of being persuaded to implement it in industry.
Windows in 6 Bytes (IA-32) : 90 90 90 90 CD 19
Is that why I have two loyalty cards on my keyring and three more in my wallet?
Apparently you like to save a little money. I can testify that they still let you check out even without your loyalty card.
in the supermarkets around here, supermarkets require you to have the 'loytalty' card in order to write a check, for their own protection.
... i've also approved it with the managers.
friends of mine work there, and they track *everything* you buy, with the card.
My own solution? 'could you use the store card? i'm not writing a check, but i want the things on sale'
it's too bad i can't play that on screen slot machine game to win the magic token though.
Runnin' On Empty
wether we like it or not ?
/. poll, do they ???
I mean, there hasn't been a slashdot poll about it yet !!
They don't expect us to decide without a
When will I end this grieving ? When will my future begin ?
Walmart demanded barcodes from the manufacturers and now they are demanding rfid tags. Walmar now controls almost half the US retail sales. Can't really blame them. The ultimate in real-time inventory and the manhours saved will practically pay for the program. We'll all have to start wearing RFID blockers.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
At my grocery store they spit out coupons based on what you buy and hand that to you in addition to your receipt. I know they track because the coupons from one trip correspond to previous trips. For example if I buy baby formula I get diaper coupons. On another trip for milk and eggs I get another round of diaper coupons while the little old lady gets coupons for Depends.
When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
Loyalty cards are your choice, and you can still buy stuff without them. I don't see how that relates to RFID.
I must buy nothing ever again, to preserve my PRIVACY!!!
Most wil activate them without any paperwork.
If not then...
Fill them out like this:
123 Main St
Anytown, AK
12345
(800)-555-3825
RFID tags are a little different.
I refuse to participate. For the most part, I buy food from our local small business, but if I absolutely have to go to one of the megachains that practically require their "loyalty cards" to avoid being ripped off, I take the following precautions:
1. I pay in cash only.
2. I fill out a form for a new card (even if I don't need it) and then throw the card away as I'm leaving. I don't fill out any of the information.
3. If a clerk gives me a hassle, I just look at them, smile, and say: "This is a conversation between me and your employer. I am trying to leave you out of it. If you would like to involve yourself in the conversation, that's fine, but I think you would rather not."
Step three usually gets the occasional nag to shut up very quickly and let me do my thing.
I figure eventually this has to end up costing them something - if everybody did that, instead of doing the sheeple thing and sticking with one card, I think that the stores would eventually give up on those damn cards.
InThane
If you're worried about privacy (in a supermarket of all places) that much why would you voluntarily sign up to loyalty (otherwise known as purchase tracking and marketing) schemes?
None of the superkarkets around here force me to have them. Of course, they all offer them, but I don't have to have one to shop there.
It's simple... just switch out loyalty cards with someone you know (the farther away they live the better) every three to six months or so. This should render all of the personalized collected data pretty useless: "He moved twelve times in the past two year and went from a vegan diet and vitamins to red meat and beer"
-- Stu
/. ID under 2,000. I feel old now.
...you have them because you filled out a form and agreed to the retailer's terms to get them.
There's a Mercedes gap too. I want one and can't afford one, but it's not government's job to do anything about it.
Am I the only one who started thinking about some new HTML tag on seeing the article title?
I hear there's rumors on the Slashdots
I've always said I don't mind RFID tags as long as there are no laws mandating them.
I would probably choose to buy the product without a tag. And when I buy products that have them, I remove them.
But what concerns me is a law (and I could see this happening) that forbids anyone to remove RFID tags. That would scare the crap out of me. But up until that point, I'll handle the tags myself.
Slashdot Syndrome: the sudden, extreme urge to correct someone in order to validate one's self.
As many things in life, we (the public) could easily stop this if there was a public outcry against it. However most people either don't know the risks or don't care. People won't boycott stores that use RFID tags, they'll just complan here on slashdot.
We have a choice on where to shop "whether they like it or not"..
Trolling is a art,
Is that why I have two loyalty cards on my keyring and three more in my wallet?
That means you are part of the problem... thanks for screwing things up idiot boy
The real question is whether we'll actually see a benefit to the introduction of RFID-- ie, actually keeping things stocked that I *want*, particularly sale items. I could certainly see some potential disadvantages, like if sale items start selling faster than they expect. Maybe an alert will be flagged and they'll mysteriously pull the remaining stock off the shelves...
All in all, I guess I can't really see any huge problem with the technology, though, as far as privacy is concerned-- that is, as long as it stays on the products themselves. If they suddenly start requiring RFIDs in the shopper cards so they know when I enter or leave the store, then I might have a concern.
KappaStone
Source? We Americans would love to know about this were it true..
Just don't think of implanting these in my body any time soon.
I'm not for certain, but I think someone brought this point up before.
God spoke to me
What If they put tags in my underwear? Can they trace my ass?
eh? if you don't like the idea of being tracked, why'd you use 'em?
As a small retailer who owns two stores (Music related and Aggressive Sports related), I am very open about being anti-RFID within the products I carry. Should a supplier offer RFID within the POP/POS merchandising structure, I'll refuse it.
As such, I've cut back as much as I can from the Targets and Wal*Marts and other large chains, instead attempting to find smaller "Ma and Pa" shops that offer similiar merchandise. In today's market, you'd think these stores are hard to find, but I've actually found the opposite.
I've been able to buy vacuum cleaners cheaper than at the mass goods stores, TVs and DVD players as well. Found razor blades and shampoo and other items at stores that won't desire RFID or other tracking mechanisms, and I found them cheaper than I would have purchased them from the large chain stores or grocery stores.
Look around your community and find retailers who have no reason to jump on the RFID bandwagon. Do you use your "Preferred Shopper" card? You're already giving up your privacy. Do you buy online? You're already giving up your privacy. Do you give your phone number to a store when they ask for it when closing a sale? Bye bye privacy.
If you want more privacy, shop where stores provide it. Don't use your credit cards or write a check (the information can get deposited into a database), pay cash. Don't get "zero percent financing for 2 years" because you'll end up having those purchases tracked by who knows how many marketing firms.
Your choice for privacy is up to you. If you care about it, the power to keep your information away from prying eyes is readily available in even the smallest towns.
You going to eat that last can of Progresso Minestrone, or not?
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Hmmm... maybe I'm missing some point... Am I?
At most Kroger stores, you can hit the top center grey button on the CC input box. The screen will show a K+ on the display. Type in the phone number associated with your Kroger Plus card, and it will process the discounts.
Just an FYI.
----- LoboSoft specializes in Digital Language Lab
.. and using it against you. There's been tons of examples. The one that made the most press was about the guy who slipped and fell on some broken glass & liquit, and broke his hip. He sued the supermarket.
... Besides, why a discount card with a unique ID? What was so wrong with coupons? Why do they have to have a unique ID and log everything that you shop? You can't have the discount unless you tell us your name, address, phone, SS# or drivers license? Bullshit.
The supermarket pulled up the guys shopping records over the last year or so. It turned out that he bought only alcohol 90% of the time while in the story. They defense team implied that he was an alcoholic and was drunk at the time, and that was why he fell, not because of the glass & liquid on the floor.
That's just one example. There are many, many more.
What is your privacy worth to you? $0.30 off a 2 liter bottle of coke? Good for you. My privacy is much more valuable to me, which is why I avoid the discount cards.
WHY CAN'T I HAVE MY DISCOUNT WITHOUT YOU KNOWING WHO I AM?
People who have and use loyalty cards should SHUT UP right NOW. If you're stupid enough to self-inflict privacy leaks for a tiny rebate, you have no business arguing against RFIDs.
When the laser scanners were coming out, everybody was saying, retailers are going to collect information about what you buy.
I am an Networking contractor. Some of my customers do this very thing.
A large chain of video rental stores in Sydney Australia spring to mind...
They DO collect data on what customers buy and retain the link between that data and that customer. The customer then receives promotional material via whatever channels they know how to get to you.
The store owner who told me this, assured me that all was okay because, they "don't sell that data".
That made me feel so much better.
War crimes, torture, lies, illegal spying... Would someone give Bush a blowjob, already, so he can be impeached?
When the laser scanners were coming out, everybody was saying, retailers are going to collect information about what you buy. And none of that happened.'
Excuse me? What do you think "Club cards" are, and why do you think there is a discount associated with it? All the info about what you buy is aggregated to create shopping profiles in order to suck more $$$ out of you in the form of targeted advertising and "sharing your info with our business partners."
RFID is everything that the barcode scanners are in terms of information collection, and A WHOLE LOT MORE! Consider: you go to your local supermarket and buy a six pack or two and walk out the front door, RFIDs and all. If an hour later you leave the parking lot but the six pack with the RFID doesn't, what's the logical conclusion, and how long will it be before all of the bored busy-body housewives of the world DEMAND that law enforcement be notified of such a scenario just in case someone might be drinking and then driving???
After all, it's for the safety of the children...
Is that why I have two loyalty cards on my keyring and three more in my wallet?
Yeah, don't get me started on "rewards cards" -- I'm carrying two on my keyring as well. There's no reward to those cards. Basically, the supermarkets have decided that unless you become one of the sheep, and carry around their silly cards so they can track your purchases, they won't let you purchase anything on sale.
Which would be fine with me. I'd be happy to take my business elsewhere. Except there is no elsewhere when it comes to supermarkets. They all have "rewards cards" now. So it's either let them track all your purchases, or pay a steep penalty by being excluded from sale items. The same thing's gonna happen with RFID. There will be no place you can go to avoid them.
Except, that is, your local co-op, and similar small-scale businesses. I happen to buy most of my groceries at the co-op just because the prices are comparable, the food is grown closer to me, the politics are better, and I know I'm not getting tracked. Unfortunately, I doubt that enough people care about their privacy for an anti-RFID movement to emerge.
I'm generally "Interesting," "Insightful," and even "Funny" here. What the hell happens to me at parties?
Yeah, I admit it - I'm the bitch of almost every local supermarket and retail store that requires a barcode for discounts.
It sucks, but I try not go down without a fight. You know, it amazes me how many people simply do not care about the wealth of information garnered about them. I've brought this up in lunchroom conversations with my fellow employees and they're like, "Oh well, what can ya do..."
Get this: Recently, I went to a bank to cash a check. This was not my bank, but the check belonged to them and as I was in a hurry for the money, I thought I'd simply cash it there.
I showed them my ID, but you can guess my reaction when they asked me for a FINGERPRINT! "Oh, it's just a formality..."
Bullshit! Look, I don't mind that the gov't has this info on me (I was in the Army once), but it REALLY bothers me when a financial institution can ask for this. Needless to say, I deposited my check at my bank, but I was a bit shaken by the incident.
Is this the beginnings of our Brave New World? If so, I hope they use oral thermometers. No way I'm getting that up my ass for 5% off!
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
- GPS-based package tracking using RFID... Be able to track your UPS/FedEx packages down to the 100 ft. range... I think this is a ways off, but it's bound to happen.
- Tracking of items in your fridge. I wouldn't mind a fridge that told me I was running low on an item I usually forget at the supermarket.
- Finding your remote control. Just RFID tag it, and make sure you don't lose your RFID scanner.
:^)
It will be interesting to see whether security concerns win out or not... With places like Walmart mandating RFID tags by 2005 (or something like that), it may very well be inevitable... We may as well make the best of the situation.Slashdot's first reaction to VMware
"Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity"
I for one, have faith that our new RFID overlords are too stupid and disorganized to make real capital out of the data. Or as a friend, who worked for the U.S. Census once said, quoting the X Files "If the truth is out there, they lost it"
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
- Is that why I have two loyalty cards on my keyring and three more in my wallet?
Gee, it was insidious of those chains to install those bar-code reading lasers with the mind control settings.Just the other day, I told them that I didn't want a loyalty card and then they zapped me with the laser and I couldn't remember why I wouldn't want their wonderful card. Now, every time I go to the store, they zap me again to make sure I use it.
Seriously, the store is paying you for this information and it's totally opt-in. Personally, I want more opportunities where I can sell personal information if something valuable is offered, like you know, money.
RFID still has a potential to be used for tracking, and I think that's what will continue to make a lot of people nervous/paranoid.
With a UPC, there's a limited number (10^12) of possibilities, you can tell what information it contains and compare between things--even if the numbers aren't there, it's not too difficult to figure them out from the bar code pattern--and you can tell when it is being scanned.
With RFID, there's a potential for transmitting much more information, the information can't be read/compared without a scanner, and it's easy to scan without anyone knowing.
I think that if legislation was passed saying what uses of RFID should be legal and what should not, a lot less people would be worried about it.
Karma: Negative (Mostly affected by dorm trolling)
According to my experience with loyalty (of the buy 3 for $10 with the card, or else one is $5) cards in the US (I'm originally from Europe), a good rule of thumb to know if a grocery supermarket chain is any good is to see if it has a loyalty card program. All those that have one are not good, and most of those that don't are a good place to shop for food (whether they're cheaper like Winco, or they taste better like Whole Foods).
RFID will let them do inventories of products in shipping so much easier. Once they are out of the stores what do they care. It's about tracking their inventory on route and in the store. So they can take a device in a stock room and know how much of what they have in there. allows for easy tracking and inventory. sounds like a time and money saver to me. A stock boy could sit in front of a computer all day and know whats there.
Evolution or ID?
Doesn't this create excellent oppurtunities for people to market products that interfere with the RFID signals? I'm not well versed on the technology but how hard would it be for someone to make a radio jammer that prevented the reading of RFID tags on their person/car/hous? Could make alot of money selling to privacy nuts and those with neferious reasons for wanting to get around the tags... Is there anything to prevent this?
OK so supermarkets can track what you buy, my GOD noooooooooooo! I'm going to get one more piece of junk mail each week with a coupon for Mac & Cheese! Why is everyone so paranoid that the supermarket is somehow going to take this information and ruin my life with it.
Supermarkets along with many other retailers are just doing what they have to to compete. The fact is, most people don't want to take the time to complete marketing surveys. And I think most of us would agree that we would rather be getting coupons for cheap gasoline and discounted candy bars rather than 50 cents off of diapers because the retailers don't know what you prefer to buy.
Who cares if Big Brother is watching when you buy that Diet Pepsi, good for him.
**BUY FROM INDEPENDENT & ETHNIC MARKETS**
I will double-check my spelling next time...
Than again, it's probably just be my striking good looks and my fat wallet.
Is that by refusing to purchase items with RFID tags, that you would be forced into "second class" citizenry. Rather than have the items that you would like to, you would have to buy more expensive downgraded products. Perhaps reasonably, stores will say that adding the RFID tag lowers store costs and product costs, and therefor by not buying RFID implanted objects, you will be choosing to pay more, lest the majority subsidize you. I'm not sure I buy that, as the added savings, or revenue, the stores see will most likely end up in the pockets of executives, not shareholders, employees, or customers.
Store loyalty cards are used to track the purchases of the cardholder, but most stores only use the addresses on file to send snail-mail spam. The solution? Use a fake name and address. You get the discounts, and no one knows who you really are.
RFID can be implemented by retailers without affecting the customer's privacy.
The simple solution is not to embed the tag within the garment but for the tag takes the form of a label that is removed at the point of sale
The retailer gets full advantage of the tags within their stock chain.
The purchaser has no privacy issues.
Additionally the retailer also has the advantage that the tag can be reused.
slashnik
The story in the London Mirror. Amnesty International, like a whole bunch of human rights groups, is concerned about Guantanamo too.
P.S. I'm not the one who's written your parent's offtopic post.
United States of America, good ol' backers of world peace.
What is so dangerous about RFID tags? The scenario I'm picturing is this: clothing/book/bunch of bananas/etc. gets an RFID tag on its price tag. This streamlines inventory tracking and retail purchase. (like bar codes, but easier to read). When you get home you remove the tag (same as you do now). Where's the increased invasion of privacy?
Why get one Loyalty Card when you can get four? Buy only meat with one, beverages with the other, staples with the third. Use the fourth to buy candy.
Take online surveys early and often. Make up answers. Subscribe to the National Review and Mother Jones. Send in product registration cards. Answer phone surveys in great, if totally made up detail.
If they want your information, bury them under a flood of useless data.
Our information is our own. If you want it, pay us for it, or live with crappy, spurious data.
What were you expecting?
I've lost the URL unfortunately but one site had a project of sorts where someone had signed up for a card and then scanned the numbers/barcode in. People then printed the barcode out, taped it over their clubcard and made purchases all over the UK on one card, making it quite a puzzle for Tesco. Alas, that wouldn't work with RFID, but I'd imagine actually posting RFID tags from one end of the country to the other could provide some amusment/ store confusion.
the cards don't cost jack compared to the revenue generated by the information.
If the vast majority of consumers stopped using them- the loss in revenue might kill the program but not the cost of the cards. That's like thinking you can drive them out of business by grabbing and extra plastic bag with each visist.
It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
They are indeed coming and it really is just a matter of price..
WalMart, etc. cannot wait for these. And actually I think the military might be a prime driver of wide scale adoption. The real trick is to get the cost down to pennies.
The huge cost savings will be in inventory. Imagine either enough readers in your warehouse to scan every location, OR a robot that drives around at night pinging RFID tags. Imagine being able to just push your cart through a metal detector & have everything scanned in seconds.
Also some RFID will have non-volatile memory and be able to record events or travels or born-on dates. For an extra $5 you can have a tamper-proof record of a packages travel. Or for $20 maybe a gps chip on board to record the shipment so audit it when it gets to where it is going.
I think the first place we'll see them will be as a new shopper card. You'll get a keychain (like the gas pump thingy) that will identify you at upscale stores or maybe even print out a shopping list for you when you enter the grocery store. Stores will want this because they can secretly track who looks at what items and for how long. Then they sell that information back to producers and marketing folks.
Here's one solution.
You probably shouldn't click this.
In this light, I don't have confidence that this will be implemented without raising my stress level.
Time to find a shed in Montana and write myself a manifesto
When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
If RFIDs are coming 'whether I like it or not,' I have questions as to how I might go about protecting my privacy.
1. How do I detect the RFID tags.
2. How do I render them useless.
My idea is that once I get my merchandise out of the store or in my home, how do I find them and cause them to cease functioning, so that I cannot be tracked, beyond the purchase? I have an industrial degausser, I'll be that'll to the trick.
One of my concerns is that some ingenious vendors would seek to surreptitiously embed the RFIDs in their products so that more than just the distribution chain is tracked.
I even think that this might be an interesting service or business to provide right in the mall.
True friends are hard to come by... I need more money. - Calvin
C'mon ThinkGeek. When you gonna start selling hand held scanners that can detect these things?
I'd love to be able to scan an item at the checkout, rip the rfid tag out of what is now my property, and hand it back befoer leaving.
The months are just too short. I can count the number of days on one hand.
Ah crap, now I can expect RFID to show up in the tin foil hats I use. I thought tracking me through the UPC on the foil container was enough :(
:)
I'm not as crazy as I think you are. So stop trying to get me
I've had three or four for every supermarket. Every so often, I go in and get a new one and throw away the old one (or leave it lying somewhere where another customer can pick it up).
And I routinely give fake information - different name, false address, etc. They rarely even ask me for ID, and if they do I either talk my way out of it or go to another store in the chain where they are more lax about it.
I'm not saying RFID tags don't have their place, but society today seems to be stuck in this mode of coming up with the most complicated and convoluted solution to a problem possible. Keep It Simple, Stupid.
...and the second a supermarket/pharmacy involves a "points" system for savings based on how much you buy(and a few do already), nobody will want to swap cards with anyone else; it'd be like giving money to someone.
Please help metamoderate.
I work for a large manufacturer of confectionery products here in the eastern part of the United States, and RFID is an issue that directly speaks to our contractual obligations with our customers who demand, for example, traceability of raw material. Working through RFID and lot assignments, we will be able to tell the customer where this box of candy came from, what time it was shipped, which lot and pallet it came from, and how much of sugar, syrup, and yellow number 5 it used from which buckets. We hope to implement RFID completely in about a year to a year and a half, alongside wireless warehouse tagging (another critical component to modern manufacturing).
This may not work everywhere, you'll need to do your own experimenting but I find that my Kroger Card works at Food Lion and vice versa (ie it makes a nice beep and I get the discount on my receipt.) You obviously have to do this at the self-checkout lines. I imagine my purchases are being recorded as some other customers records... that or the loyalty card software doesn't do any sanity checking... Hmmmm buffer overflow, anyone?
2^5
What is needed for the RFID to flourish, and to be accepted for widespread adoption (which would cheapen it through economy of scale) is ironclad legislation that covers these three simple points:
RFID shall only be used against white lists of your own property. Any other reading must be discarded.
RFID shall be prominently labeled, and be removable without destruction, devaluation or vandalism to the item that is attached to. For example, someone here asked, why not just cot off the tag? Answer is that some clothing is now coming tagless.
Warranties shall not require RFID tags in order to be upheld.
RFID is good technology, let's not let it's overwhelming potential for abuse become an issue.
They claim that they only track by category. I.e. they track that you bought baby stuff and that the little old lady bought senior specific stuff, but they claim that they do not track that you bought such and such brand of baby food for such and such price.
I know this because I once called them to try to get access to their info. I wanted to try to make a better inflation index system that took account of substitutions, etc. (One problem with current inflation index methods is that they don't measure well if someone switches from apples to oranges because of price changes; they sort of assume that you buy the same stuff all the time.)
You can choose to believe them or not. I just wanted to mention what they told me. The argument in favor of believing them is that it would be a lot of data and not terribly useful to them.
It's also worth noting that if you pay by credit card, they would have access to most of that data anyway. Of course, paying with a mix of different credit cards and cash will mess up the results of that.
Imagine that you're purchasing groceries. You step into a booth (which is, for purposes of customer security, sufficiently shielded). An RFID transceiver extracts (encrypted?) purchase information from your items. A monitor summarizes your purchase. You remove a small device from your wallet: an RFID-enabled credit card. The kiosk requests your PIN, and then completes the transaction instantaneously. You exit the store.
Instead, the merchants themselves (Wal-Mart, for instance, as covered by Slashdot) are currently mandating less convenient, but similar "automated self-checkout" technology. Cashiers cannot be outsourced to India, after all; thus, the merchants are simply outsourcing that labor to their customers. Automation is indeed the way of the future...
Do you like German cars?
You just met THE Average American---too bad you let him get away. If we'd just locked him in a box in your basement, then that would've solved many of the world's problems...
Yeah, right.
Oh, and I'm sure there aren't any anti-globalmonopolists who wouldn't love to put a herf gun in a shopping cart and roll it through a few Walmarts. Kill two beasts with one stone.
The supermarket card is the perfect example of what can happen with RFID gone bad. Obviously, supermarket cards collect individual buying habits of customers. This really isn't in dispute or something to hide. The scary part is what can be done with that data that goes well beyond just marketing information.
There have already been two cases (that I'm aware of) in which data collected by supermarket cards has been used in court. The first was a case where the info was used to show that a man had a habit of buying very expensive wines, and was successfully used to argue that he could therefore afford more in allimony than he was initially supposed to pay. The second case involves a man suing the grocery store for slipping while shopping. The store attempted to use the man's buying history to show that he was likely an alcoholic.
Scared yet?
How about RFIDs? How can they be miss-used? Well, just look at EZPass, the toll-booth system that uses RFIDs to automatically charge motorists. That info, in the state of IL, has been supoenaed 11 times already. In one case to prove infidelity in a divorce case.
Now imagine how many places will use RFIDs. Every store. Public places. EVERYWHERE. Compile and cross-reference this data and you can assemble a complete picture of a person.
This is not "tin foil hat" material. It IS happening and it WILL continue if you don't do something.
"The market alone cannot provide sufficient constraints on corporation's penchant to cause harm." -- Joel Bakan
I'll have my privacy, I'll carry an RFID jammer on me where ever I go and intentionally jam and disrupt RFID recievers whereever they may be.
And I'll equip my friends, family and anyone else that wants one.
If I discover anything that I possess contains an RFID chip, I'll nuke it. Perhaps degaussing will kill them, perhaps now, but if nothing else, a shot from a 300,000v stun gun should do the trick.
DEATH to RFID...
...
'everybody was saying, retailers are going to collect information about what you buy. And none of that happened.'
it did happen. supermarkets are currently printing out coupons on the back of your reciept, based on your previous purchases.
Gyrate Dot Org - "Where high-tech meets low-life"
This is NOT entirely accurate. The biggest Retailer has been tracking customer purchasing for YEARS, and reselling that data to its suppliers.
Here is a HINT, it is the same Retailer that is pushing for RFID tags on all its products.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
Information Resources, Inc does already track almost every product with a bar code. Granted, it's not personalized, but all that data and analysis thereof is available to anyone who wants to pay for it.
Hello!?! This is the horse. I'm dead, so you can stop hitting me.
Accept it now and save yourself years of worry and frustration. Privacy is nothing more than a nostalgic memory.
If you want privacy, dig a hole, climb in it, and pull the dirt over yourself.
that let people swap these. Your idea is brilliant.
there's no place like ~
you wont need all of your little keyring cards, that got to provide you with a little comfort.
And in the case of RFID, while I can see ways that they can be abused, I also see many ways they can be quite helpful.
I know damned good and well my grocery store's card tracks my purchases AND gives that information to other businesses to spam my USPS box. How do I know? About a month (sometimes less, sometimes more) after making a purchase with that card I'll get coupons from one of any number of companies that are for the exact same things I purchased previously. Now you might be thinking that it's quite common for the average joe to get coupons for Kraft Velveeta, Cheez-Its, Mountain Dew, Hamburger Helper, and hot dogs. What about getting coupons for condomns, AstroGlide, 409 cleaner, and hot sauce one month after you previously bought that combination late one night in the store. (What can I say? She liked a clean apartment and mexican food 8-) ) I know they are collecting and distributing my marketing information because their actions say they are. When I was in college my friends and I used to trade our customer loyalty cards all the time. Heck in our dorm we had a couple stuck to the bulletin board in lobby for anyone to use. I bet that skewed their marketing data: beer, condoms, beer, beer, condoms, beer, jello, beer, Aleve, beer, duct tape, beer, beer, lighter fluid, TP, beer, budweiser, lots and lots of TP....
little sticky RFID blobs, not paper-thin stickers, but the fatter ones like they attach to clothing...
I always shop at the Albertson's by my home, which up until recently didn't have a loyalty card. I never pay cash though, I always use my ATM card.
About a month after having our second child, the coupon printer at the checkout started printing coupons for baby formula, no matter what I bought.
Their system knew who I am based off of my ATM card, and knew that I had a new baby. It kept printing the formula coupons to keep me coming there.
Do I mind it? Hell no. The coupons I was constantly getting (And still getting occasionally) are worth about $10 each, and I was getting one no matter how little I spent at the store. There were several times I ran in for something small, and ended up with a buy one get one free coupon for formula worth 2-3x the amount of my purchase.
In the last few months, I've gotten $200-$300 worth of formula coupons, so to me it is worth them tracking what I buy at the grocery store.
"RFID chips, whose data can be grabbed by electronic readers, could one day hold all of an individual's personal information. In theory, that means they could displace credit cards, medical-insurance cards -- perhaps even wallets, predicts Scott McGregor, CEO of Philips Semiconductors. He went on to say, "We will also have flying cars, and live in bubble houses on the moon!"
Shame, I was hoping to get a job in analysing these statistics. If the ability is there, they have and will.
"When the laser scanners were coming out, everybody was saying, retailers are going to collect information about what you buy. And none of that happened.'"
A blog I run for the wealth
I use a loyalty card(BAKERS) I found on the ground in front of a CD store. Everyone wins.
I dont care.
If I cared, I would simply not use the bonus card, and pay with cash.
Oh no, the restaurant (and the government, and whoever else they sell the info to) knows I like Instant Thai Curry and I only buy meat at Whole Foods!
GASP AND SHOCK.
I do, however, trade "bonus cards" with my friends. Its fun.
I like to pick and choose my battles. Im not fighting this one.
(posting anon. get it? cmon!)
I just sign up for the cards with a bogus name and address. Since they hand out the card when you fill out the app, problem solved. "Thanks for shopping at Safeway Mr. Eno." "Huh? oh yeah, sure thing"
I recently read an article somewhere about WalMart already using RFID tags in Gillette products to track who is buying what etc etc...
However i feel if there will be some kind of widespread implementation of these RFID tags; there will no doubt be plans all over the net for some kind of scanners and possible devices that neuturalize them... (with parts purchased from Radio sHack) therefore i'm not 'too' worried about them. But i do feel that they are a step towards invasion of privacy.
-Kacy
"The huge cost savings will be in inventory. Imagine either enough readers in your warehouse to scan every location, OR a robot that drives around at night pinging RFID tags. Imagine being able to just push your cart through a metal detector & have everything scanned in seconds. "
Imagine all the low wage "I'm here because of the economy" jobs lost. The same for those automated checkout lines. The worker is being squeezed between a rock and a hard place. Outsourcing, insourcing, technology increasing productivity reducing need for workers. Soon there will be nothing left.
Here is a culture jamming prank that has been going on in Sacramento for some time:
h opper.html
http://www.cockeyed.com/pranks/safeway/ultimate_s
Basically, it gives instructions for how to create a Safeway barcode. Hundreds of people use this same number when shopping, getting all the discounts, but completely obscuring their own tracks.
Please join!
https://www.accountkiller.com/removal-requested
Human Subdermal RFID Chip - VeriChip
The benefit of RFID will be when you push your trolley through a gate, but your credit card in the hole in the wall and pay...
I really don't see the privacy implication here. All they will know is what you've bought, which they know anyway, seeing you're paying for it. How exactly are they going to use the RFIDs to invade anyone's privacy?
I'm sure even i can come up with some ludicrous schemes, and knowing the way the world works some of them will be implemented eventually, but at the moment with the things they propose i see it as a stock-keeping and payment issue, and nothing else...
Ponxx
If WalMart is going crazy over these, Asda here in the UK (owned by WalMart) will probably introduce it...
Is that why I have two loyalty cards on my keyring and three more in my wallet
Seriously, if you're concerned with privacy then WHY did you get said cards? You signed up for it, bro.
>>stores only use the addresses on file to send snail-mail spam. The solution? Use a fake name and address.
t ements.htm
A good idea, but you can do better than that, give them the name of the President/CEO/CFO/CIO of the supermarket chain!! Let the company bigshots that make these stupid policies get hardcopy spammed and see how they like it.
So how do you find VIP names? Go to the corporate section of the company web page, look for investor information (if a publicly traded company) or "history" or such if a private company. Get a list of names of the officers and put that together with information about where the company is based. Jump over to the internet phone book with that information and you're all set. If you can't get a home address, just enter the corporate office address.
How 'bout a couple links to get you started? Kroger: http://www.kroger.com/financialinfo_reportsandsta
Food Lion: http://www.delhaizegroup.com/en/in_ar2002.asp
The average life of a sports-shoe model is about three months. Say that when your shoes wear out, you want a similar pair. It's incredibly difficult today for the retailer to tell a customer which new model corresponds to the old one. But we could fix that with RFID. That's a great sales tool.
Salesdrone: "Hi, thanks for coming into Foot Locker. Is there something I can help you with?"
Consumer:"Yeah, I need a new pair of cross trainer shoes to replace these. They're kind of worn out. I can't find them on the shelves, did you stop selling them?"
Salesdrone: "Yeah, they look pretty worn out. The maker replaced that model with a new one. Here, I'll scan the shoes to find out the replacement."
*BEEP*
Salesdrone: "Yup, XR-304a was replaced with XR-304b. You should buy XR-304b."
Consumer: "Uhh, great but that's not what I want. Do you have anything else, I didn't like these all that much."
Salesdrone: "The computer says XR-304b is the replacement. You should buy XR-304b."
Consumer: "No thanks. Hey, what are you doing? OUCH!"
Speak truth to power.
Do this. Buy a product that you always buy i.e. milk and bread. Then at home scan the RFID codes to get the numbers. Next, buy the cheapest product you can get and get it's ID code. Now, take this ID code and when you buy the milk or bread reprogram its ID with the cheapest ID code. Go to the counter and wa'la, you get the cheapest milk and bread with your own personal coupons and your food bill goes down. The same could be done for clothes etc. Hence, cheap stuff is easier with RFID's then trying to print a barcode!
Willy St. Co-op
Membership Info
NERDS!!!!
Just a thought - i virtually always use my check card at the grocery store, and i think that's pretty common these days. Given that, can't a grocery store just link the card number/name to the list of stuff you bought and build a database from that?
Sure the discount card catches all the cash using stragglers, but i think you'd get the majority of people just by getting the credit/debit/check card users and check writers.
So you may have to pay cash every time anyways to really keep your buying habits private. And as soon as you use a check card with your discount card once, they can link your real name to all the purchases on the discount card, regardless of whether you used phony info on the discount card app or not.
Also, privacy concerns around RFID tags are a little like concerns about supermarket scanners years ago. When the laser scanners were coming out, everybody was saying, retailers are going to collect information about what you buy. And none of that happened. I think the situation with RFID is similar.
Retailers DO collect info about what you buy, corps like WalMart and Target have huge datamining efforts to figure out what they should place near other items in the store based on buying patterns
I don't socialize with people who don't eat red meat and drink beer.
paintball
What's useful about that? How about a PDA-size device that has a subset of the RFID database. It will have your preferences in it, on things like "environmentally friendly companies", or "made in my country", or threshold settings for customer satisfaction.
Now, instead of having to do a lot of research on everything you buy, just wave your little comsumer RFID reader over it, and decide if it's the kind of thing you want to buy. No more reading between the lines on the package small print.
Just make sure that database remains open!
"Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
--- Jerry Garcia
There's a limit to how much info they keep about their customers. Retailers are notoriously cheap. Most retailers will not buy the machines necessary to be a mini big brother. They just keep track of total sales dollars and any "points" you may rack up. They could care less what you bought. They're more interested in you being a "good" customer.
Every single store I live near uses the "loyalty card" as a way to jack prices up, not give discounts to "loyal" customers.
To use an example I used to use, when QFC (owned by Kroeger/Fred Meyer) went to their loyalty card program, they were pushing straweberries as their "big sale item". With the card, they were $4.99 a poud, without they were $10.99 a pound.
My local produce stand had strawberries at $3.99 a pound, and they were much better quality too. Since then, I haven't seen any trend to reverse that either.
InThane
No, you have them because you voluntarily signed up for them, to get some type of benefit, such as discounts on purchases. No one is forcing you to use them.
I've been to stores where they ask if I have my card with me. If I say I forgot it, the checkout person will sometimes just use a card they have at the register with them to give me the discounts.
I'm not particularly paranoid about this stuff, although the rest of you are more than welcome to be. :)
If all you have are silver bullets, everything looks like a werewolf.
Albertson's over here in AZ for years advertised thier Bonus Buy program, where you get the discounts without having to carry around their card. This past month they added a bonus card program, ensuring anyone who didn't fill out a form would get ripped off.
If that isn't customer betrayal, I don't know what is. Now I'm less inclined to shop there than at places that have had cards all along (plus they're a little bit more expensive, either way).
Not a bad idea. Unfortunately, I doubt it will work, as "the first store" to implement this is going to be Wal-Mart. I already don't shop there, so I can't drop their sales anymore. And, I'm fairly sure (at least in my small town) handing out fliers at the door of Wal-Mart would make a minimal difference, at best. We already have tons of better places to shop here (save, maybe, some good deals on DVDs), and those people still choose Wal-Mart.
With Wal-Mart backing RFID, it's more a question of "when" instead of "if". That being the case, I'm much more interested in:
1. Knowing what items I have purchased have RFID on them, and
2. Being able to disable the RFID tag after I purchase the item.
Guys, just get the cards, tell the clerks you'll fill out the application later, and then throw it away. You don't have to submit your information to get the Kroger card.
REM Old programmers don't die. They just GOSUB without RETURN.
I was in Austin last week for the second largest music festival in the US, South by Southwest (sxsw). RFID tags were embedded in the wrist bands that fesitval goers had to wear for the duration of the multi-day event. Most venues I went to scanned these (checking for counterfeit wristbands) using equipment that has the ability to store the info on the RFID tag to upload into a database. With plans to link personal information such as birthdate (for 21+ verification to purchase alcohol at events) and the ability to add money and use the wristband as a sxsw debit card, I see many privacy issues on the horizon for future sxsw goers. Approximately 7,000
Of course, the question is if they all have the same name on them, even if it is not your own. Or if everyone uses the same name and address.
Imagine the chagrine if everyone here used the name Cowboy Neal, for example. with the correct address at osdn headquarters. or someone at the white house.
I imagine that this would be a best way of handling it. never mind the political pressure when all of that junk mail arrives at there office.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
I use 'em all the time, but that doesn't make analogies any more accurate.
Comparing RFID to bar codes is close in that that is what most retailers want them for.
However, that doesn't change the fact that bar codes DO NOT TRANSMIT and CAN NOT BE SEEN unless you put them in plain site.
It's like the difference in security between an ethernet cable and an open WiFi signal. Same -intended- purpose, but one is far more prone to abuse.
It is more productive to voice thoughtful opinions (reply) than to judge (moderate) others.
You don't have any. Bought anything from the supermarket using a check? A Credit Card, or a debit card. You just lost any privacy.
Do you receive advertisements for new Credit Cards? Any service whatsoever? If you own a home you have no real privacy.
RFID are not a threat to our privacy. The only threats to our privacy occurs when the government takes it away. All these new wonderful abilities because too many Americans were willing to give up some rights to fight terrorism, which in turn accomplishes one of their goals - changing how we live.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
or Algeria?
I don't read or respond to AC posts
They are a choice, and that's the beauty of it. Wegmans, walmart and the dozens of other stores that politely demand one for every time you want to pay with a check... no they can't make you do that. But they want to. A check is verified along the same lines your credit card is or debit card, just in paper form.
Hell, if you're like me you buy almost everything in cash, save the recipts and learn to manage your money correctly instead of happily going along bubbling down the isle with a cc, buying everything your heart desires.
Sorry but no, I won't be a tool for marketdroids or our overzealous privacy invading government. As for posting under my username... =) public library w/o logging into the computer to use the internet, and no cameras here (librarian is a best friend of mine).
ta ta
If this guy was drunk it would be documented in the bloodwork done at the hospital.
Second, the defense would be smarter then to bring this kind of thing in a trail. The jury would go apeshit if the store proved it keep tabs on everybody's dirty secret.
Hollow words will burn and hollow men will burn.
When the laser scanners were coming out, everybody was saying, retailers are going to collect information about what you buy. And none of that happened.' Is that why I have two loyalty cards on my keyring and three more in my wallet?"
My friend was the project manager on the project that brought the loyalty cards to Giant Foods (big in the Mid-Atlantic region of the US, not sure about elsewhere) and he told me this is _exactly_ what they do. They track all your purchases and which sale items you buy, etc. Heck, the management there was giving him crap about not shopping at their stores because they were looking up his records at work!!
We are being tracked... more and more and with greater efficency every day. Personally, it scares the crap out of me.
---- It puts the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again. It does this whenever it's told.
After I lost my loyalty card, I learned I could punch in my phone number at the local supermarket. Once I accidentally transposed a digit and it went through. Now I routinely switch digits around just to muck with the system, and when I hit a variation that isn't in the database, I apologize for the "mistake".
Besides being rankled by having marketers grubbing through my purchase records, I think there is a not-unreasonable security concern, too. If a group like the Nazis ever gains power in the U.S., it would be a simple matter for them go through the supermarket purchase records for kosher items to identify targets. (Granted, there are plenty of other indicators for them to use, so I'm probably screwed anyway, but why give them anything I don't have to.)
I wouldn't have the loyalty card at all but for the fact they won't give me the sale prices without it. So when my grocery order contains only non-sale items, I don't use my "loyalty card". The irony is that for many years, I was very loyal to this chain (which was locally-owned), but now that they've done this, I can't wait for the new interloper to finish the market he's building down the street.
"Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past." -- George Orwell
No, idiot, you have two loyalty cards on your keyring and three more in your wallet because you CHOSE to get them. For every membership store like Sams Club and every sign your life information to us for a discount store like Kroger, there is a store like Publix that says: Shop with us where we don't make you have a stupid loyalty card.
Furthermore, stores like Kroger, that offer loyalty cards don't REQUIRE them to shop. They just give you a discount on your merchandise if you use the card.
You CHOSE to get the card, because saving a few bucks was more important to you than your privacy, so get off your moral high horse about RFID.
----
What's the point of karma if you don't use it to tell the truth?
You can tell a great deal about the character of a man by observing those who hate him.
When the laser scanners were coming out, everybody was saying, retailers are going to collect information about what you buy. And none of that happened.
... yes they do collect information about what you buy. Furthermore, they use the information to lay a map of where you've been in the store. The information so gathered is then used to identify the optimal placement of products for exposure. And how is this collated to you? Via your credit/debit card number. The stats collected are sufficient to determine attributes such as, say, probable gender to the credit card even if they couldn't gather it from your name, etc. Frequency of purchases, location of purchases, dates of purchases, all come together to make a very accurate picture of the individual let alone the population. Dude, Walmart is one of the biggest employers of data miners in the world! Where have you been?
Uh
In fact, all the existing electronic conveniences have made tracking you so easy that it is foolish to think anything new will compromise you further. You are compromised. Face it and proceed from that fundamental assumption.
Know what's hilarious: people will agonize over the release of minor personal info electronically and yet they will happily fill out written contest forms requesting far more intrusive info such as age, address, phone #, email, and numeracy level. How's that last one? The little math problem you have to do for some contests provides a small insight into your eduction level!
"Consensus" in science is _always_ a political construct.
at the grocery checkout. It shouts out each item you scan. "Move your, grapes to the bagging line, move your condoms to the bagging line..."
"I don't think it's selfish, to eat defenseless shellfish." -NOFX
From the article:
Plus, contactless payments are cool
and
all this information could be embedded into RFID cards on your key chain or in
your jewelry. Then, it would give you secure authentication and look nice.
Yeah, 'cause I hate the way money looks I want to pay in style! Besides I've never lost my keychain,
a ring or bought new ones ever. But I guess that's the way the US is, form before functionality.
I don't need these rights given to me by some dead guy 200+ years ago, I want a creamsicle NOW!!
Because, sherlock, they're paying you for marketing information. It's NOT a "discount".
It's called capitalism. Businesses don't do anything unless it makes or saves them money. You expect them to give you a discount for free? Coupons are designed to move product by getting you to buy in bulk; they're not distributed out of the goodness of the hearts of management.
5, insightful? 0, Ignorant Of Economics And Business Marketing is more like it.
Please help metamoderate.
As it is, we have to hand count and hand scan s/n constantly. If I could just "read" the s/n with a tag reader, I would save a lot of man-hours and probably have better accuracy. I can really see the use of this is business-to-business applications. Not everything is about individuals.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I was quite surprised to read all those posts here about the supermarket cards. Up here in Canada (Quebec more precisely), apart from some exceptions (Air Miles and HBC/Club Z programs which are not compulsory but a voluntary program) there is none of that crap. People never pay with checks anyway, we mostly use debit cards.
Certain stores have store credit cards (Sears, TheBay, etc) but once again it's your choice to get one of those and use it.
I think that if they started requiring cards for some reason or another, people would just refuse and go to the next store/supermarket and buy what they want there.
If he explores all forms and substances Straight homeward to their symbol-essences; He shall not die.
Safeway definitely keeps track of everything you buy. I remember when I lived in CA, I would use safeway home delivery. I remember the first time that I logged into safeway.com, it had EVERYTHING I had bought using my safeway card listed there. Everything. So apparently they have a huge database of all of this stuff. Personally, I don't really care. But it definitely does happen. What was kind of nice about it was that I could just choose my last shopping trip and have them deliver exactly what I had gotten the last time (or use it as a template).
Regards,
-JD-
To read tags from orbit would need one hell of a transmitter! (Maybe that's what the aliens in StarTrek IV: So Long and Thanks for the Fish were doing, trying to read whale RFID tags?)
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
Arizona Albertson's [after being the last holdout] recently added [loyalty cards ... but with] a check box at the bottom that says "I will not share info with you, but give me a card anyway"
Good for them!
When Safeway and Lucky's were rolling 'em out in my area I signed up - but using a handle rather than my truename and leaving the address info blank. (I did give them my correct approximate income, since it couldn't be easily tied to me.) This lets 'em data mine my preferences without collecting a database to haunt me personally later.
The person doing the signing up at Lucky's said that this was just fine. (Indeed, said person's own loyalty card was in the name of a deceased movie star.) I understand that cartoon characters, inventors, and other historical figures hold a rather large number of cards at these stors. B-)
And I was happy to sign up with Scolari's in Nevada (though still without tracable identity info), since they give a small cut of your purchace price to the charity of your choice from a long list - which includes Nevada gun training groups. B-)
Downsides include not being able to use checks and refraining from using credit or debit cards. But my bank has ATMs near all the places I shop so I don't need 'em. Also: If I ever lose my keyring It'll probably end up at one of three stores that have no address or contact info and an incorrect name.
The person doing the signing up said that this was just fine. (Indeed, said person's own loyalty card was in the name of a deceased movie star.)
One interesting effect was that, maybe a year or two later, they decided to do a "friendly cashier" bit. The point-of-sale terminal displays my "name" and the clerk says "thank you Mr ". Cue the theme from the Twilight Zone. B-)
Big Brother was so named because, like most dictators (popular/propaganda movies to the contrary) his carefully-cultivated public image is exceptionally friendly and helpful.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Let them drive themselves into bankruptcy!
...
We sure could use a good old fashioned boycott
I look forward to widespread use of RFIDs in the checkout lane. As a person who had to leave an area with a lot of self-service checkouts (Minneapolis) to an area with NO self-service checkouts (Rochester NY) I am NOT happy because now I have to wait in lines again while low wage retards slowly scan groceries for soccer moms that insist on writing a check AND only start to do so after the final tally is calculated. Since my move I've not once spent more time shopping for groceries than I spend in line waiting to pay for them!
But when you buy a set of clothes, you should be able to get any and all ID tags contained within that clothing deactivated, to prevent you becoming a walking RF billboard.
Less is more.
My local grocery store Wegmanshas been known to send letters to shoppers who have purchased certain items that have been recalled. Maybe that's a good use of the data, and maybe it's not, but clearly they are using loyalty card system to track everything that we purchase.
The loyalty cards are not really the same as RFID.
RFID can be used to track items purchased, but really don't have a direct way to tie that information back to an individual consumer (assuming you don't give them the information in another way). A lot of stores have ways of doing this anyway and have for a very long time. Keeping track of what sells help keep your prices down by reducing overhead and helps make sure things are reordered promptly. There isn't a large difference between keeping track of what is sold and keeping track of the IP addresses tha access a web page and where they came from.
Consumer loyalty cards are very different. They track by individual user. A store might know that I like to buy a certain brand of cereal and use that information to increase their revenue by either targeting me in a marketing campaign or by selling the data to another company. Every loyalty program I've ever seen are voluntary except for private bulk stores (like SAMS CLUB or COSTCO). You are getting the discount in agreement that the store can use your information. If you don't agree, you can't complain about not getting a discount because they are not makinge money from you. Lower income families are more likely to use this, but their information is also less likely to be useful because of the lower discretionary income. There are also numerous ways around these cards and several people have commented on them.
There is also the option of not shopping at RFID or loyalty cards stores. Don't be angry when you have to pay more. Businesses are designed to make money. They use any legal means to do this function. While the ethics of this may be questionable, it is not currently illegal. If a store says that they'll give you a discount in exchange for marketing information, competing businesses may be put at a disadvantage because the primary shopping habit of people is based on price, not privacy.
I've been cutting my barcodes out of the card, and just carrying those around for years, but they have gotten a bit unweildly. Does anyone know of a PDA-based barcode simulator that will allow you to create scanable representations of barcodes? Would a bitwise GIF be sufficient?
I can only imagine what kind of bonuses Rob has on his card.
The ______ Agenda
When a new "upscale" grocery store opened in my old neighborhood, I was pleased that they didn't have loyalty cards. Now I notice that one of the major grocery stores I shop at (Rainbow Foods in Minneapolis area) has dropped their card. The other large competing chain, Cub/Supervalu doesn't have one either. Together they probably get 80% of the grocery shoppers in the metro area.
Neither do the others: Lund's, Byerly's etc. I can't think of a single grocery chain around here that still uses loyalty cards.
Q: Is this a nationwide trend, or just specific to this area of the upper Midwest?
I suspect that the rise in numbers of people paying with credit cards makes these loyalty cards superfluous. I rarely pay for groceries in cash and I tend to get pretty well targeted register coupons when I shop. e.g., I bake a lot so the register often prints out coupons for flour, sugar, chocolate, etc...
If they want to trust that RFID tags can't be duplicated, well, that's just so sweet and cute. I didn't think that there was so much trusting innocence left in this world.
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
'[P]rivacy concerns around RFID tags are a little like concerns about supermarket scanners years ago. When the laser scanners were coming out, everybody was saying, retailers are going to collect information about what you buy. And none of that happened.' /sarcasm
Then according to him, my Marketing text book is wrong! Marketing Information Systems don't exist! Oh No!
I! Tego Arcana Dei.
But, other than that...they just don't have much I need. They sell clothes, but, who'd wear the crap they put out? I've never had a 'super WM' near me...so, I don't know what their grocery store selection is like...but, really, what do they have there that is so great, that so many people go there. The few times I've gone...I didn't really see any great price savings on anything.
I do however, like Sam's...the WM wholesaler. There...I find good deals. I make my bi-annual run there for toilet paper (a case lasts for about 6 mos), and spices and other stuff in bulk. But, hell, I only go there about twice a year.
Anyway, I find I look for deals on stuff I want...and go to the store advertising the best price that week....and there just isn't much in the Wall-mart, Kmart level of store I have need for....
Do many of ya'll actually shop there?
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
If you want to be amused, just use fake names like "Napoleon Bonaparte"; then you'll get an idea of who's selling their mailing lists.
If these RFID devices are designed to be disabled (as the current RF security tags are), then it should be an easy matter to disable thousands of tags at a pop.
The current RF security tags (RF, not magnetic or accoustic tags) work via a passive or sympathetic action. The security sensors at the store exits transmit a low power RF signal. The RF tag receives this signal, which is converted to a weak electrical charge, which in turn powers a small transmitter. If the security scanner detects a signal on the RF tag's output frequency then it sounds the alarm. To disable a tag, a signal is broadcast at the same frequency as the "input" frequency of the RF tag, except the signal strength is so strong it burns up the tag (or more specifically burns out a specific fuse-like weak link in the tag).
So my point is that RFID tags also have to be powered externally by an RF signal - they are the same as RF security tags except their output signal is modulated to include static data. If someone had equipment set up, say in their vehicle, to broadcast at a few hundred watts (or perhaps thousands of watts in a short burst), they could potentially burn out quite a few tags in the store.
I'm somewhat surprised no one is doing this currently with the RF security tags.
Dan East
Better known as 318230.
Kinda makes you wonder who's pushing this?
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
so I can start causing mischief with them. If I find RFIDs in crap I buy, I'll remove 'em and slap 'em on:
- cop cars
- neighborhood dogs and cats
- FedEx trucks
- leave 'em under my airplane seat
Of course, if I find other people's RFIDs, I'll keep as many as possible in my wallet.
Q: A lot of people worry that RFID will infringe on their privacy. Is that a valid concern?
...except when the RFID tag isn't on the tag, or there is more than one RFID tag.
...At the low end, the primary differentiator is price. At the high end, it's more about features, such as security, encryption, protection from evildoers.
...except the evildoers the system trusts, who can use RFID for their activities.
A: There's a theoretical risk. But we have safeguards, and more are coming. Our tags have a kill function that will destroy the tag in case of tampering.
Destruction in case of tampering is to protect the retailer, not the customer.
There are ways to simply erase the information on the tag. There are also less high-tech ways to deal with this: When I buy a garment, one of the first things I do when I get it home is cut off the tags. You can cut off RFID tags the same way.
Also, privacy concerns around RFID tags are a little like concerns about supermarket scanners years ago. When the laser scanners were coming out, everybody was saying, retailers are going to collect information about what you buy. And none of that happened. I think the situation with RFID is similar.
Exactly that happened: retailers gather data on customers, made possible by barcodes. RFID is like a barcode which can be scanned as you walk past the scanner, even if it's in a pocket or inside the sole of a shoe:
And for a lot of makers of sports shoes, RFID provides added benefit to customers. The average life of a sports-shoe model is about three months. Say that when your shoes wear out, you want a similar pair. It's incredibly difficult today for the retailer to tell a customer which new model corresponds to the old one. But we could fix that with RFID. That's a great sales tool.
As if current shoes couldn't have their model number printed on the inside. And what was that above about removing the RFID tag? How do you do that when it's embedded in the shoe? What better place to put a unique serial number than in a person's shoes, to be read by floor-based scanners under doorways.
We're working with Visa, which will move from magnetic stripes to contact smart cards and eventually to contactless smart cards (they'll be scanned from a distance, vs. cards that have to be swiped).
Just what I need, a credit card that anyone can scan without it ever leaving my pants! Yet another way Visa is ensuring their customers receive a quality screwing.
Since they are tracking by useless information, they can't infringe on our rights to buy 50 copies and 'Catcher in the Rye' and a crate of ammunition. Both are totally legal, and the men in the black helicopters should not have access to information on who does buy such things, except with a warrent, which gives them plenty of other ways to investigate.
I frequently use my debit card to get cash out without purchasing anything. For some reason the system magically knows that I purchase baby diapers and formula without me actually buying anything on my current order and prints me out coupons for diapers and formula. I don't have a club card either.
I don't think its a bad thing to use RFID to track products for inventory. The article went deeper than that.
They were talking about putting RFID in cell phones or key chains and such. Using the tag to hold ALL of your personal data such as medical records, drivers licence, credit card and even car key.
Not once did the "reporter" (not) ask "what happens when you lose your cell phone with all your info stored in it?"
Identity theft is what makes me think twice about ever using devices like this.
Mr. Rivera slipped on a yogurt spill and shattered his kneecap at a Von's Supermarket. The injury required surgery and ten days of hospitalization, keeping him out of work for an extended period of time. "Von's representatives threatened to reveal records about my alcohol purchases at the store. .. "
You send me:
1 RFID tag
1 sase
1 dollar
I send you:
1 RFID tag from someone else that you can carry everywhere you go to skew the data.
But they don't have my permission to do anything with the data, nor do they have an address.
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
I won't shop at Wal-Mart. I have too many choises as alternatives. Their buisness practices suck and their employee manangement is horible. I'll spend the extra 89c to shop down the street.
The *only* thing they have that I wish other places sold are the 5 quart jugs of motor oil. I hate having a bunch of 1 quart bottles around when my car takes 5 of them. Anyone know of any other place that sells oil that way? Preferably Mobil 1 Synthetic.
When they're broke - everybody. Sure their selection sucks ass, and most of their merchandise is shoddy, but they are cheap cheap cheap!
When I can afford to shop anywhere else I do. When I got $15 to last 2 weeks, I shop at Wal-Mart.
They will never stop until somebody makes the
You may not find what you need there, but a whole lot of other people do. Maybe you don't like the things they sell, but I find Wal-Mart invaluable for clothing and home items. As a college student, I can't afford to pay the extortional prices of department stores.
http://www.ibiblio.org/Dave/Dr-Fun/df200312/df2003 1208.jpg
Say that when your shoes wear out, you want a similar pair. It's incredibly difficult today for the retailer to tell a customer which new model corresponds to the old one. But we could fix that with RFID. That's a great sales tool.
I was on the fence about RFID, but learning that it can replace a sheet of paper with old model numbers in column one and new model numbers in column two sold me.
Some may say that this task could be online and automated using a database-backed web-site. They're obviously ignoring the fact that this method requires no infrastructure overhead, and, what's worse, generates no profit for Scott McGregor's bosses at Philips.
rfid tags will likely be hidden in most product in order to prevent shoplifters from yanking the tags out before walking away with the goods. When manufactures start building rfid tags into their products, requiring tags won't be a problem. Imagine if you will, tags being build into the soles of shoes so that Payless doesn't get ripped off. Most people will eventually be tagged and not even know it. Stores will no longer see a need to give loyalty discounts; they will track most people anyway. Corporate boards will say: "Let the tinfoil hat people (literally) dig out whatever tags they find, those people are less marketable anyway."
That is, if we assume merchandise is to be tagged.
I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
"When the laser scanners were coming out, everybody was saying, retailers are going to collect information about what you buy."
Actually if you use your little discount card this is exactly what they do...granted it is not for conspiracy purposes, but it is to gather shopping habits about you and other customers in general.
what?
Few people have a problem with a small, local merchant knowing you. But that relationship is symmetrical, the merchant knows you, you know the merchant, if there is abuse, you can brace the merchant directly.
But a big chain is impersonal, they know about you, but you're just a collection of data to them, not a person. And they're insulated from a lot of feedback by the distance. This means they're more prone to abuse, and there is little you can do about it. So a lot of us are just being prudent and avoiding getting into such a situation in the first place.
Hey man. Any other civilization would have just taken them out back and shot them long ago. Plus, I wouldn't believe everything you read from the London Mirror.
There's a growing sense that even if The Future comes,
most of us won't be able to afford it.
-- Lemmy
Oh yea? Boycotts are coming whether you like it or not. Roll that up and smoke it.
--Consumer #1342982304982
Why are there only 19 people folding@home for slashdot?
Sooo.... let's just say that our fledgling RFID industry is about to take off, and walmart is going to (probably) give it the boot it needs.
Who's supplying all this RFID equipment? Which publicly-traded companies? I don't think the public knows yet, and when wall street figures it out, and starts getting the word out, boy...
Heh...
We're working with Visa, which will move from magnetic stripes to contact smart cards and eventually to contactless smart cards (they'll be scanned from a distance, vs. cards that have to be swiped).
So now credit card theives don't even have to steal my wallet or look at my card, they can just get the information by brodcasting the query signal? How is this a step forward for security IN ANY WAY? Even if it requires a specific code to transmit, every retailer would have to have the code, so theives could certainly get at it.
Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
OK, so we know that stores are tracking your purchases. My question: So what?
On the pro side:
You get targetted coupons
Stores get superior inventory flow management. This allows them to cut costs. This may result in: lower cost product, higher wages to employees, higher bonuses to bigwigs. None of those are horrible things.
On the con side:
"They" are "watching" me.
Will someone explain to me why the hell a store cares how many bottles of preparation-H you buy, other than to make sure they stock enough to meet demand? To what nefarious purposes are they going to put this info?
I'm limiting this to barcodes/loyalty cards. I'm well aware of the Minority-Report-esque possibilities of RFID outside the store.
ARound here the little guys: ACE hardware, and Maus Foods both have customer cards. Cub Foods, the giant of the Twin cities doesn't (and in advertising has made fun of those cards that others have), nor does Home Depot or Menards (though both have store credit cards that sometimes offer a discount, only sometimes though). So I have to shop at the big guys with lower prices to avoid those stupid cards.
Despite the claims, I don't see how administrating a card program can really save that much money. Some stores like it though. I vote with my wallet: go to the big guy with lower prices and no card.
"When the laser scanners were coming out, everybody was saying, retailers are going to collect information about what you buy. And none of that happened.' Is that why I have two loyalty cards on my keyring and three more in my wallet?"" The laser scanner only collects information about what was bought. If you use a loyalty card, you've chosen to identify yourself in order to get a discount, and the store has told you the y collect info, to it is your choice whether you allow your purchases to be tracked, not the scanner. Don't use a credit card if you expect to remain anonymous either.
Damn right. It must be nice to have the money to sit around and spit out idealistic crap regarding Wal*Mart (and I don't argue that much of it is true), but when you're bairly making it there's pretty much no choice.
"Windows Me offers tremendous reliability and stability improvements..." -- Paul Thurott
I don't shop at walmart either because of all the other people that do. Parking lots are like a warzone and the checkout lines aren't much better.
When the laser scanners were coming out, everybody was saying, retailers are going to collect information about what you buy. And none of that happened.' Is that why I have two loyalty cards on my keyring and three more in my wallet?"
Bullocks. AH, a huge supermarkt which some of you might know because of Ahold's scandal in South-America, uses a bonuscard. Guess what the negative side aspect of that card is? Right, you got it! All info of what you buy is coupled with the identity on that card.
I don't know about other supermarkets, i'm not the one here who buys things. But it's hard to believe this way of gaining info about the customer isn't used by other supermarkets too.
Most don't know the problem of large stores like Walmart. It only hit me while taking a sociology course.
I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
well.
Wal-mart forces a monopoly in small towns.
Where I am currently sitting, the town is population 18,000; pre-wally world, the town had 4 grocery stores, 2 department stores.
since Supper Wally came in, we have 2 grocery stores (and 1 of those will be closing within the year) and 0 department stores.
I've seen them go into a town of 8000 and cause everything but the walmart go out of business.
So, unless you live in a fairly urbanized area, walmart does it's best to become your ONLY choice.
Why, yes, I AM a Pagan Libertarian.
I was a loyal customer of my community Safeway until they started using shopper cards. I gave false info on the cards, but do not shop there anymore, but if I do, I ask them to swipe their store card for me (and they do). If I go to a store (Winn-Dixie)that does not have a Store-Card when I get to the cashier, I just leave the groceries and instruct them to tell the manager why.
The Walmart Super-Store is about 1 mile further and does not use cards. I shop there mostly.
I know people who like the loyalty cards. They think that if the store sees that they keep buying the same tub of ice-cream every day, eventually they will get a coupon for the ice-cream. That's their way of thinking, it's definitely not mine and probably not the store's either.
These people will have the same attitude towards RFID: "OMG! So if they see I'm wearing Gucci stuff from head to toe, they may give me an extra discount when I buy more Gucci."
Got a nifty concept for ya':
Don't but it if you can't afford it.
Try it on for size.
Oh just wait. You can bet law enforcement will find all kinds of neat-o keen uses for RFID technology. For instance, every felon getting one subdermally courtesy of the US government!
They will never stop until somebody makes the
> Is that why I have two loyalty cards on my keyring
> and three more in my wallet?
The stores forced them on you? They refuse to take your money unless you have one? It is impossible for you to take your business elsewhere?
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
"When the laser scanners were coming out, everybody was saying, retailers are going to collect information about what you buy. Is that why I have two loyalty cards on my keyring and three more in my wallet?"
Those ID tags only track you if you provide meaningful information when you fill out the ID tag. I consistently use things like "Ima Lyre, born Feb 29 1971, 123 Bogus St., Schenectady NY 12345." (Actually, 12345 is in Sch'dy NY, but no-one lives there-- it's GE's main plant. Since it's a paper application, the sales idjit just smiles and takes it.
Those retailers are collecting information about what entity number 4567489612347 is buying, but the only link to me is in my wallet... if I haven't lost it.
As Cinderella said to Pinochio while sitting on his face, "Lie, you bastard! Lie! Lie! Lie!"
This, however, will not be an option with RFID.
//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
"During mediation, Givens (privacy activist) said that it emerged that Von's had obtained Rivera's supermarket card data that reportedly showed alcohol purchases. Though the evidence was never introduced in court, he lost the case."
"Von's said at the time that the company would never use customer supermarket buyers club information in litigation."
Is it possible to carry a device that would destroy the chip in the store?
For example, in the Seattle, WA area using the Microsoft main phone number of 425-882-8080 -or- the Boeing number of 206-655-2121 at QFC or Safeway works every time. As an added bonus when they are running "Spent $500 a week and save an additional 10% on your groceries" promotions you get the additional savings almost instantly. There are other promotions they run all the time as well, "Buy 5 Starbucks coffee beverages and the next on is free" I seem to get a free latte every 2nd or 3rd trip to the store.
As long as you use cash (not your ATM/Debit or Credit Card!) you effectively remove yourself from their data-collection system... in fact you are contributing misinformation to their database, actually reducing the value of their data collection stream. To really corrupt the information, use the phone number of a business that you have no interest/affiliation in whatsoever.
If the stores ever care enough to shut down one of the number just move to the next major business number in your area... repeat, lather, rinse.
I just love this bit from the article blurb:
>Is that why I have two loyalty cards on my
>keyring and three more in my wallet?"
If you're so concerned about privacy, why are you giving away your information for loyalty card 'points'?
Grow a frickin' spine, you puss.
Don't but(sic) it if you can't afford it.
I have no idea which "clothing and home items" the parent-poster was referring to, but if they are underwear and laundry detergent (or items like this) "don't buy it if you can't afford it" is not a viable option. Maybe you can afford a $400,000 home and drive a BMW but for many people when faced with the choice of paying $30 a pair for boxer shorts at the mall or a pack of 5 for $10 at wal-mart, they'll take wal-mart any day of the week.
Today I didn't even have to use my AK; I got to say it was a good day -- Icecube
They're not out to spy on you
The point of loyalty cards is not to allow a secret cabal of abstemious zealots to monitor whether you buy yellow mustard or brown. The point is to be able to identify frequent shoppers, and their buying preferences, and thus tailor the inventory of the store (and its "specials") to those frequent customers. Key point: they're identifying a class of people, not keeping track of you.
Here's how it works
Let's pretend that you and I are the management team at a local supermarket. The seafood manager says that we've sold every ounce of salmon in the store today--and we sold out yesterday, too. He wants to expand the space in the display case for salmon. In the old days you and I would look at one another, shrug, and say, "go ahead, Gene, sounds like a plan." Today we'd look to see whether the salmon was purchased by our core customers or not.
The point of a loyalty card plan is to identify customers who shop in our store every week. The industry has a pretty good picture of retail shopping patterns: they know that people spend roughly $30-40 per week (per person) on groceries. If they identify someone who is spending over a hundred dollars per week in a store, they can confidently identify that person as a "core shopper." Those core shoppers constitute the vast bulk of that store's business: it will pay the grocery chain big time to tailor that store's inventory and pricing to the tastes and preferences of those core shoppers.
Think back to our conversation with Gene, the seafood manager. He's selling salmon like, well, hotcakes--and now we've identified that practically all of that salmon is being bought by core shoppers. We notice that lots of other seafood is being bought by core shoppers. And, we notice, deli sales are more or less flat. Perhaps we can increase revenue by giving a bit more case space to the seafood counter, and take a little space from the deli (pretend they're adjacent).
Once upon a time grocery stores used to "floorplan" every store to a similar pattern. And for some categories (laundry soap) they will continue to plan each store similarly. But for lots of categories store inventories within a chain will vary widely--because your local store has a customer base that buys lots of salmon, or lots of kosher food, or lots of home baking products.
This concept of tailoring inventory to match customer demand is crucial to the grocery store chain--because the margins in groceries are so small. The essence of the grocery store business (at least financially) is inventory management: and the essence of inventory management is to turn your inventory as many times per year as you can. Inventory turn is a simple calculation: sales divided by inventory. If you have $5 million in sales, and you have $800,000 in inventory, your inventory turn is a respectable 6.25. If you have a 2% profit margin on sales, you're earning $100,000 in profit on those sales, which amounts to a 12.5% return on your investment in inventory. (This is a crude example [e.g. it doesn't include capital expenses] but you get the general idea.) A 12.5% return on investment (ROI) is terrific these days--but using those loyalty cards you can break down your sales figures by department, and determine your ROI, literally, aisle by aisle through your store. And you can determine how much of your sales are to core customers, aisle by aisle through your store. And thus you can tailor your inventory--dropping slow movers, expanding shelf space for hot products, and using your knowledge to better guess what new products to shelve.
In short, improving profitability by focusing on your core customers and serving them better is a pretty cool use of technology.
So what's the end result?
You shop at a grocery store that has more of what you want, and less of what you don't. Yes--the truly paranoid are correct in saying that the grocery store company could deduce a lot about you by examining what you buy (lots
What the the little white, rectangular squishy thingies they use in bookstores like Borders? They have two strips of metal foil and apparently work with magnetism somehow.
Does anyone have any technical information? Or even what they're called, so I can Google for info?
"Also, privacy concerns around RFID tags are a little like concerns about supermarket scanners years ago. When the laser scanners were coming out, everybody was saying, retailers are going to collect information about what you buy. And none of that happened. I think the situation with RFID is similar."
Is the above why I am now forced to use 641 different "bonus cards" when I want to get a decent price on products?
Just like websites that require cookies, not for session tracking, but for marketing info, it is likely that stores will soon require you to have their RFID to just ask a question of a sales person. This will of course "not be to invade your privacy, just to track the sales person's performance and to ensure you receive an enjoyable experience."
I neither want them invading my privacy nor an "experience".
RFID is not as bad as you think. I used to work for a provider of data warehoouse solutions, granted not in the consulting division. I went to a presentation one of the guys in supermarket consulting gave, and he talked about the complete failure of the supermarkets to do anyting useful with the data they were collecting with loyalty cards. I worked at a grocery store when the cards were first introduced. They had all these great ideas about sending you personalized coupons, and % off rewards by tracking savings and giving reward points. They don't do this anymore. The supermarkets failed miserably at targeted marketing and 'spying'. They are in the business of selling food, they are not in the business of collecting data about their customers. Sure it would be of huge benefit to them to do this, but short of WAL-MART having the resources and brains to make something like this work nobody knows how. The supermarkets are too dumb. Look at self check out and how much they missed the boat on this. I go to the store and all the person in front of me does is complain about what a piece of crap this self checkout is, just last week the lady in front of me said "I could have gone through faster through the regular check out." You do not need ot worry about the ability of retailers to capitalize on this information. RFID will be driven by supply chain management people. Any efforts to aggregate data on your purchases will come from marketing. Any actual solution for these will come from the IT department. So to get this data collection to work you need IT, Marketing and SCM. My corporate experience has shown that getting 2 people to work together on something is hard enough try getting hundreds from 3 different departments and a CEO who is so caught up in squeezing the last dollar out of each department without spending even $0.50 and there is no way this will happen. (this is the one time you can thank CEO's for being so cost driven) Especially 5 years from now when every IT job in America has been outsourced to india and the IT guys are 5,000,000 miles away from the marketing dept. Relax a little and take that foil hat off your head. There is no conspiracy to take away your privacy. Nobody who has the power to do it has the brains to pull it off. Or to reailze that it could actually be done.
I tried for 5 years to come up with a clever sig...only to realize that I am not clever.
I work for Target (it's not really that bad...times are tough you know)
They are actually a decent company. We give over a million dollars to charity every week. Our supervisors make sure our working conditions are good and that our concerned can be voiced.
This can't be said for Walmart. I know people who have worked for them in the past and they are almost prison like institutions. Recently, my city approved the destruction of several residential areas to put in a Walmart. It saddens me to know many people were forced to move from their houses, some of which were kept through several generations, so that citizens could pay a few pennies less for goods.
Now I am offered the choice, boycott Walmart, and hurt them ever so slightly...while hurting my town more through lost tax revenue. Or...I can support Walmart, filling their coffers so they can go on with their destructive behavior...and keep my town afloat.
It is interesting that Wal-Mart is not very pushy about their discount cards. They do have them, but they are not pushed for most of the stuff on the shelves. Instead, they are used for things like gasoline. This must mean Wal-Mart gets their data fix from other sources, like credit card and bank card cross-referencing. Or perhaps they just sell so much damned stuff that their aggregate statistics are all they need.
Vote in November. You won't regret it.
Here in Florida, you can go to your local Publix that doesn't use "loyalty" cards and often times beats the prices of their competitors that do use loyalty cards (Winn Dixie). I've found it amusing that Winn Dixie is having financial problems and they heavily advertise their loyalty card.
Is that why I have two loyalty cards on my keyring and three more in my wallet?
You have those cards on your keyring and in your wallet because YOU PUT THEM THERE and AGREED TO USE THEM. You weren't forced to take them, you aren't forced to use them, and no one threatened to beat you up or key your car if you didn't. Hell, you aren't even forced to patronise grocery stores that use them.
WTF. Asshat.
That's *exactly* what he's doing. He said he can't afford the prices at the deparment stores, so he doesn't buy their stuff. Prices at Wal-mart are within his grasp however, so he does buy their stuff. What it seems like you're saying is that if you can't afford to buy something at an expensive store, then you should not buy it at all, even though you can afford it elsewhere. I'm sorrry, but that is just ridiculous.
Where can I get me a pair (or two) of those?
My safe card has no name, no address, and no phone number. I just asked for one, and they gave it to me.
Yea, they can track "your" account, but it's pretty difficult for them to do that, unless they can cross-reference your credit card along with it. Or arrest you and yank it off your person.
eheh!!!
That previous poster either didn't attend college or lived off daddy's stipend.
I guess that if I had used his criterion pertaining to food, then I would have starved.
Too bad that everyone can't shop at Saks, eh?
...what all this bitching is about? Who the fuck cares if a grocery store has your name and address and tracks what you buy???
A) You might get a discount on items at a store. (Although I am aware that sometimes prices are inflated and then "discounted" for people who have the card, thus returning it to the normal price.)
B) If you lose your keys, the mini-card on my keychain says "Bring these keys to the nearest Albertson's." Bam, now they know where to return the keys. And if you give them bogus info, your keys are going to be lost forever.
Are you guys just a bunch of criminals? Seriously, what do you have to hide? Do you cover up your items at the checkout line so no one can see? I, personally, don't care if someone knows how many bagel bites I buy.
I belong to the ______ generation.
There's just one flaw with your examples. With your examples, there was effectively little loss (excluding those who wouldn't or couldn't change). In other words a one to one with one exbuggy-whip maker becoming one present day guy working production line. However what makes the present different is that it's not a one to one anymore. For example lets say it use to be five people manning the checkout lines. Now those five are replaced with one checkout person and five automated lines. That's four people out of work. Now one or two of those can become repair people but that still leaves two. Remember the point of automation is to do more with less. Not, the same with the same, or heaven forbid less with more.
You multiply this across a society (robocaddy for the rich), plus what I've already mentioned and you can see were things will get difficult. We're effectively making people redundent. There's only two ways of dealing with this situation. Create jobs from somewere (best left as an exercise for the reader), or reduce or eliminate the need to work for survival purposes(1). Neither seems to be viable at the moment, so here we are, unemployed draining the countries resources. Maybe a tax on the rich to support all the people whom they've put out of work (sort of a "wish you were here" tax).
(1) Yes folks, no Star Trek, or Star Wars, let's not retreat into fantasy here.
BTW With your foreign competition. Need I remind you the car companies requested that the government bail them out, and and they got it. Just as the present day airline are. So no that example works even less.
This is true, but in larger areas Wal-Mart doesn't drive out the other stores. In a smaller town closer to home Wal-Mart opening had the effect of closing down the K-Mart. No biggie, we just traded one dept store for another (better one IMHO). There's still a Big-Lots and 5 grocery stores around, as well as some smaller businesses. They're now uping the regular Wal-mart to a Super Wal-mart though, so we'll see how that goes.
However, when we get into small to mid-sized cities (like the one I work in, North Charleston, SC), Wal-mart has had little effect on other businesses. There's still a Super K-Mart around, as well as Sears, JC Penny, Dillards, Belks, and just recently a Target opened up. There's 6 or 7 grocery stores around here too. Plenty other choices besides Wal-mart.
I don't really have anything against them though. Wal-mart generally has great prices on stuff, and they're one of the very few remaining large stores that hasn't caved in and quit selling firearms and ammo. That reason alone will make me shop there over somewhere like Target. Their prices are a tad higher, atmosphere feels much to yuppy-ish, and they don't sell bullets. Nope, I'll stick with Wally-World.
Nobody cares that you have a Doritos problem or that you buy baggy clothes for really high prices.... these are things evident by your general appearance anyway.
"Got a nifty concept for ya':
Don't but it if you can't afford it.
Try it on for size."
Let them eat cake, you mean.
'Tis good to be a Republican, ain't it.
It's like the age-old argument: quality vs. quantity.
For instance, in your example, perhaps nobody knew that the guy who slipped really liked to buy wine and booze for his parents, who like to "get wild" on the weekends.
But because the computer just tracks what it is programmed to, it doesn't know this. The lawyers are then free to interpret this data however they choose. And believe me, they will wring and twist it however they see fit.
On the other hand, if you have a store clerk in the one-horse town, whom, hopefully talked to the guy buying booze, he could tell the jury the guy actually is a born-again mormon, doesn't drink, and buys it for his parents.
It's all about the potential for abuse, and the limit of technology. As if people's perceptions were questionable enough, these devices are created by us...and so inherently contain all of our faults, plus more (laws of physics).
Hey man. Any other civilization would have just taken them out back and shot them long ago. Plus, I wouldn't believe everything you read from the London Mirror.
It's not even a matter of belief. The Bush Administration acknowledged they would not recognize Guantanamo prisoners as regular war prisoners ; the obvious consequence of this decision is to give them the possibility to deny basic rights to the prisoners like due process, in order to gather intelligence for the "war on terror".
Whether the Mirror guy's story contains exaggeration or not doesn't matter much : occurences of psychological and physical torture in Guantanamo are already documented from many credible sources like Amnesty International.
"Everybody else is doing it so why can't we" doesn't cut it when you're on a moral crusade like Bush.
This picture says it all
Their strategy in more urbanized areas goes like like this: First, they absolutely flood the area with Wal-Marts, to the point that they're competing with each other, let alone anybody else. Second, after they've driven everybody else in the region out of the business, they scale back the number of Wal-Marts.
So don't think that just because you live in an urban area, you're safe from being Wally-ized.
I just thought. Subdermal would be too easy to cut out.
Maybe inserting the chip directing into the bone marrow would be the way they'd eventually go. So that amateur surgeons can't get it out without hospitalization.
And taking it out oneself would be a one-way ticket to federal prison, no doubt at all.
...in addition to our tinfoil hats.
I sure don't want a credit card that can be read by just being close with a reader.. How stupid is that?
They'll have to pry my magstripe credit cards from my cold dead hands.
"Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain
That's why you weigh the cart before you let them out the door. If the total cart weight doesn't match the total weight of the items scanned then you know a few things were missed.. but then again, what a haddle that would be.. :)
My new catch phrase is: "I NEED A NEW CATCH PHRASE, BABY!"
Well I choose NOT.
Looks like it's time to do like Gandhi, and wear only homespun clothing.
What?
So go get a better job. I used to be broke, I fixed it. I can now afford to be as idealistic as I damn well please. I learned to survive broke as well as anyone, but having money suits me better. Live better - work union!
Send whiskey and fresh horses!
So, now the big-wig CEO/CFO or whatever is suddenly going to suffocate under a barrage of junk-mail? Not likely.
More likely his Puerto-Rican mail-opening servant will have to stay later at work to sift through it all, while her kids stand outside of school in the rain, waiting to get picked up. Great.
Think about it.
If I can get the same pack of 5 at Target for $12, guess where I'm going to shop? In fact, despite being what I'd consider reasonably well off, I don't buy $30 underwear, and it's pretty ludicrous to assume that's what the parent poster was talking about.
7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington, DC 20500
I guess their technology is insuffiently advanced to work out that such items are popular, and worth keeping.
Before somebody else jumps on my back, Dominick's is owned by Safeway-- It's the Jewel (other local chain) that Albertson's owns...all in all, really the same thing.
"Anonymous cowards are just K-whores afraid of their accounts being modded down." - Bob the O (me)
A company I interviewed for does web-based photo fulfillment. Wal-mart was looking to get into the biz and asked them for a tour before signing the contract. After the tour, Wal-mart aborted contract negotiations and started their own fulfillment program -- modeled exactly after the other company's. Bastards.
-l
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I get a discount without them knowing who I am. I just snagged a discount card that someone dropped and I've been using it for over 3 years now. I take great pleasure in the fact that everytime I swipe it their database has another incorrect record inserted into it. Take that, the man!
Well, seeing as how I can't go to work or school with no clothes on, I do have to make some purchases. And I can't get to those places without oil for my car, so again, there are necessary purchases.
And I try not to but anything. I guess you went right on to work, and didn't go the college route.
Nobody forces you to to use those loyalty cards. Try shopping somewhere else that doesn't penalize you for not using the cards, like my favorite supermarket. I gave up the big supermarkets over 5 years ago and have never gone back. The smaller stores are cheaper.
Has anyone proven that the RFID tags inside your home can be read by a truck outside? Does it really matter when you've already admitted privacy isn't very important by carrying those loyalty cards or using a credit card for electronics purchases?
signature pending slashdot approval
I do nearly all my shopping at the local wal-mart supercenter. I probably spend half as much on the same items as you do and get them in half the time because I'm not running all over town to buy different items. I carry no loyalty cards because wal-mart doesn't inflict that on it's customers. You have a choice...pay less to shop and do it in less time, or buy into all the anti-wal-mart propaganda and suffer the loyalty cards, high prices, limited selections, and overpriced designer tinfoil hats of the wal-mart hater's lifestyle. I look forward to all this RFID stuff coming because it'll save me even more money and time. And the precision targeted coupons that come with it will also be cool.
I don't buy $30 underwear, and it's pretty ludicrous to assume that's what the parent poster was talking about.
Uh, what would you consider "clothing and home items" if not underwear and laundry detergent? Even if he meant sweaters and furniture the point still stands. Many people (poor college students especially) will make do with an $80 desk from wal-mart rather than a $2000 computer workstation from Sharper Image.
As other posters have pointed out, if they can only afford goods at wal-mart, then they are indeed buying what they can afford.
Today I didn't even have to use my AK; I got to say it was a good day -- Icecube
I love the comment that your entire wallet goes away. Everything about you can be stored in your phone!!! I've never lost my wallet, but my cell phone I have. Besides all the cell phone companies are constantly trying to get us to change phones, or providers. If you change your phone every year, how do you migrate the data from one phone to the other. How do you purge your data from your old phone so you can sell it to someone else? etc... etc... And the last thing I want is to get spam on my cell phone from a movie poster!!! And what's this about sports shoe lasting only 3 months? ARHHHH!!!!
- Is that why I have two loyalty cards on my keyring and three more in my wallet?
No, you have those cards because you signed up for them. I sure don't have any of them.It's a discount off the inflated price, or rather, if you DON'T have the card, you DON'T GET THE NORMAL PRICE
Really, do you think they they're still not making a ton of profit off the items sound at "membership discount" levels? Yes, you can shop elsewhere... in my case though elsewhere generally involves an 80km drive to the next city... and prices here are definately higher with the "discount" let alone without.
It's the same concept as gasoline.... sell them at $0.83/L for about 6 months and they'll think they're getting a deal when it goes back to $0.69, even though it used to be $0.52.
You're not getting a deal, you're only getting at best a nominal price instead of an extreme one, or less screwed than before.
Just ask for the 'house card' next time you are in the store. If they don't scan a house card, ask for the manager and believe me he will scan a house card. They do this because litigation has proven loyalty programs in effect charge similar customers different prices.
As a side note, I see calls for 'mod parent up' which is unfortunate. The parent post is just a leftist cry for class envy and adds nothing to the discussion. It's also inaccurate because, as I just pointed out, you can get the loyalty card discount without a loyalty card. This may explain why I haven't posted on slashdot for a year and will likely not post again for a year. This topic could have been quite a nice discussion about RFID (a technology you *will* deal with) but I would imagine when all is said and done we will just be bashing Microsoft. Amen.
To play devil's advocate here... even though I'm no fan of walmart...
first, walmart is simply doing good business. They aren't threatening anyone, or as far as I know abusing their monopoly position. They are not pricing things at a loss to kill all local business, then jacking up prices...
Wal-mart simply comes out as a better business.. and wins big.
IF you look back, you might find that before the 4 grocery stores and 2 department stores opened, there were a half dozen small local grocers spread around, and a dozen or so specialty shops instead of department stores... all who eventually went out of business after the larger stores opened.
Now, I'm not saying it's good.. but it's not like this is an abnormal thing in business.
...everything with an RFID that happens to be able to fit in my microwave oven will eventually fall into it.
"I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid." -- Bishop 341-B
I buy some "extra-spicey-superhot-chili" at Joe's Supermarket... the next day will I be mailed coupons for milk-of-magnesia and toilet paper?
How about when I slip and fall somewhere, and they determine that I broke my ankle (which I recently did) because of low calcium (I didn't buy enough 'milk' products).
How about medication... will Jane at the front counter know when I bought a family pack of condoms in the pharmacy... and then refuse to go out with me because she thinks I'm a sex fiend (though perhaps I am just supplying a local school or clinic).
It's not about the coupons that come with my chili... it's about all the other damn people that I interact with that have no business knowing what my shopping habits are... and especially not drawing false conclusions from them.
retailers are going to collect information about what you buy. And none of that happened.
Yes, it did. And it is continuing to happen.
A large fraction of the consumer herd is very well characterized. But it's not in the interests of those database owners to make that known to consumers, only to potential clients, like direct marketers.
If the government were to mount an attempt (TIA, anyone?) to start gathering the kinds of information that already has been collected and sits in privately-owned databases, the outcry would be deafening.
Expect the insidious encroachment to continue, with only fringe tin-foil hat objections. Until the day that Something Happens because of this technology. At which point, the herd will start bellowing and the politicians will start posturing.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
It is not a (sic) if it is a typo Mr. Spellchecker so put your pretentiousness away.
Thank you...
Say, in reading your user details, I see that you've deployed Open/Star Office in your school. I'm in a similar situation of hating the continued cash that my school sends to MS every couple of years for MS Office, etc. I'm trying to get acceptance out there among my users for OOo, but response so far has been lukewarm at best.
How did you pitch it to your users and management? The biggest problem I've run into is that it is, according to my users, relatively "different" than MS offerings and will require a non-trivial amount of retraining to bring everyone up to speed. I have ~1000 users, all indoctrinated on MS. That doesn't include students, but they tend to pick up computer skills faster than teachers anyway.
I really like the fact that students can load OOo up at home and have the same software; it destroys barriers to entry. But I'm having difficulty getting it accepted.
If you care to contact me, my email address is clsaiko@[OOo]mahtomedi.k12.mn.us without the "[OOo]".
[MOD ME OFFTOPIC]
Qualitas edurus commercium, nullus penitus net rimor, nullus deus beneficium
Since when did you think you had any privacy left?
Let's see....
1. The water company knows how much water you use.
2. The light company knows how much electricity you use.
3. The cable company what shows you watched.
4. The local tax people know how much you paid in school taxes, et al.
5. The feds know income taxes.
6. Your credit card company knows everything you've bought.
7. The grocery stores know what you eat.
8. The gas companies know where you've been.
9. Your bank knows everything you've been buying.
10. Surfing the net is traced by your ISP because they have to relay your request to the other hosts.
11. Why do you think cookie monsters track what you do on the net?
What privacy? Other than we still wear clothes we might as well walk around nude and go moo.
Someone put a black hole in my pocket and now I'm broke.
Maybe it's time to build a personal RFID jammer?
"And a voice was screaming: 'Holy Jesus! What are these goddamn animals?'" - HST
Your faith is YOUR faith. Keep it to yourself and people won't get pissed. Your faith has no place in other people's lives. Stop trying to inject it into the conversation. Stop trying to inject it into the law. No one likes having someone else's beliefs pushed on them.
Faith is like sexuality. It makes great art. Let others discover it for themselves. And please keep it behind closed doors. For non-theists, this applies to the absence of faith as well. It's not for public display or debate. No matter how hard you try, you can't prove that you're right. It all comes down to faith.
It would be funny to put RFID on your tinfoil hats.
That's interesting, but it could just as easily be used in the opposite direction. Suppose you slip on some yogurt at a store and they claim you were drunk?
Subpoena their loyalty card records to "prove" that you aren't a frequent alcohol buyer...
what do they have there that is so great :)
Cheap Plastic Crap, and I love every minute of it, I need an alarm clock, or some other little widget of some kind, and it is 11 pm its the only place that is open that has a little bit of everything, and most of it being, chep plastic crap, which is just what I need
When Safeway started doing their stupid club card, I stopped shopping at Safeway. When for various reasons I need to, I enter the phone number of a friend who's dad used to work for them, so had one.
When Albertson's, the store most convenient for me, started theirs, I drove a little farther, to a Thriftway, though it had less of a selection, for most shopping. Though it was nice that they would just give it to you without having to fill out anything. When I just needed a couple of things and the "preferred savings" wouldn't be a factor anyhow, I'd just go to Albertson's. Lo, they gave me another! So, I started shopping there again, and each time, they gave me another. I've got a good dozen now ;-) They've since stopped that, but if you don't have one, the checkers have a default one they use, so it doesn't penalize you to not use their card. I'm a happy Albertson's shopper again, until they change that.
Obviously the parent poster could afford it. At WalMart.
Get out into the sunlight and take off your tin-foil hat. Not all RFID is evil.
<Grammar Nazi>And learn to spell. No buts. Just do it</Grammar Nazi>
Go ahead, mod me down. I've got Karma to burn.
Video meliora proboque deteriora sequor - Ovidius
You don't have to use the card to shop there. Or just claim that you forgot it or something.
My local chain (mostly local, it's sort of regional) doesn't believe in loyalty cards at all, though. I certainly don't mind that attitude.
i am a soviet space shuttle
is not shopping. i can shop with cash. I don't use loyalty cards because I cant be flipping arsed to carry around of bunch of card so that after I have spent like 500 quid i can get something I don't want for free.
what would worry me is:
#1 your credit card/driving license/whatever contains these so *they (companies/govt/loonies) can basically track you all over the place.
#2 if there is no way of deactivating them after you've left the store. once all our nice consumer goods have these in, the burglars can go shopping by just running around with a handheld rfid detector. (if they cant do it they - they will)
#3 reading some potential applications like having an rfid detector in your home then it communicating with some server somewhere. OK fine if you want to do it, but what if I don't want my details broadcast everywhere? hows it gonna know that who's stuff is whos? if the detector is on the partition wall how will it tell? they could potentially breach my privacy which should mean that they should be outlawed as I have no way of knowing if there are any there.
now some people may say that the last 2 are limited due to range, but - it will get better, like everything does.
RSA developed an RFID Blocker Tag which annoys RFID readers by responding grumpily to all RFID read requests. It's a passive device like RFIDs, and doesn't burn out anything, just blocks requests.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Just go commando!!!
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Why does everyone assume these products are actually discounted/on sale? They just jack up the prices to ridiculous amounts and force you to sign up for a 'discount' card so you can buy them at reasonable prices. If you don't believe me, the next time you go grocery shopping, go to safeway and refuse to use a discount card.
"They've canceled the show but we're still here. What does that make us?" "Big Damn Junkies, Sir!" "Ain't we just"
If you think that information on purchases you make with credit cards is not collected, think again. I work for a company that collects exactly that information and a simple query can show what, where, when and by whom it was purchased. It is not misused, at least not to the best of my knowledge, however I am sure if a government agency would like to get their hands on it, it would be made available to them as well as to anyone who can hack the system.
You're lucky....mine takes about 14 quarts of oil for a change, and is Valvoline Pure Synthetic.
I can't really get under the car, and don't have stands..so, I have to take it to the shop to let them do the oil change. Ick...about $80 per oil change, materials and labor...
I hope to get some stands soon to do it myself....but, still, 14 quarts of oil, gets a little expensive at just under $5 a pop.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
When I was in college...I worked each summer..gave that money to my parents, and they subsidized it some...that gave me spending money for the school year. But, I didn't know anyone that had to pay for the 'basic necessities' like clothes themselves while in school....
Man, that sucks....and I thought "I" was a poor college student way back in the day....most people I knew back then didn't even have to work summers..their folks just paid it all. Good luck to you!
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
I was the holder of a check from that bank, signed to me. I have no relationship with that bank - nor do I wish to. Maybe I live too far in the sticks, but I've NEVER seen this done before.
Why in the hell would I give my fingerprint to anyone I don't even have a business relationship with?
Maybe if I hadn't worked for Corestates' IT dept. years ago as a lowly integrator I wouldn't be so concerned. What I saw there terrified me.
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
Dude. I can go to wally world at four in the morning and walk out with batteries, underwear, action figures, a carton of cigarettes, food, t-shirts, blank CDs, blank VHS tapes, headphones, a fan, and compressed air.
:P Unless you need toilet paper- the uni-mart will happilly sell you a roll of one-ply for the price of a four-pack of two-ply anywhere else. :P
At FOUR IN THE MORNING.
Compare to the rest of the stores in the area, which close at six or seven. Or the damned banks, which close at four.
If you're a night person, wally world is pretty much your only option.
A: They put them in cold liquids, bombard them with gamma rays, do what's called differential power analysis. Basically, they've noticed that the chip uses a slightly different amount of power if you get an incorrect digit than if you get a correct digit, and they try to break the code that way. They take the chip apart and try to discover the password on the logic components.
To counter that, we use temperature sensors and radiation sensors on our chips. We have all kinds of voltage protection, so they can't monkey around with that. The logic is randomly distributed. We have coding on the chip that's licensed from the CIA that's really hard to scrape off without permanently damaging the chip. We're the only company that can do high-level, triple DES encryption in a contactless RFID tag.
I'm not sure what the heck this guy's talking about...but I'm sitting here with a Symbol 1555 RFID reader and I can read any RFID tag. Yeah, the *data* I read may be encrypted, but in terms of "breaking into it"....what???? RFID is a bar code without the bars...that's it. There's nothing more there.
Some supermarket chains use loyalty cards for check cashing, and care about real names, but many of them don't (or at least don't care if you're not trying to cash a check. Safeway and Albertsons' are two examples.) The real purpose is to correlate purchases and marketing. Sometimes they'll give you the card and the form to fill out and hand to them, or sometimes the manager wants to type in the material themselves. I usually carry cards from [Illegible scrawl] or John Doe, whose address is "General Delivery" in my town (or in 90210, which is my other zip code.)
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Are you a terrorist! It's unamerican to wear homespun clothing unless it was made by starving children from third world countries.
*Oh, snap!* You just got nailed by Gandhi owning a gas station.
If I allow my toe to be injured, I feel pain. This causes me to try to avoid injuring it---perhaps the same applies to some concepts of God
There should be a law requiring/prohibiting that (Please circle one)
Others have already pointed out that the so-called "discounts" offered by loyalty cards really aren't. You're supposed to think that you're getting a discount off the regular price if you use your loyalty card, when the reality is that you're paying a higher-than-standard price if you don't use a loyalty card.
It reminds me of mail-in rebates. Someone not long ago -- I think it was Ed Foster, in his column "The Gripe Line", but I don't remember for sure -- pointed out that when D-Link or whoever offers you a $30 "mail-in rebate" on that WiFi router, they don't actually want to give you a lower price -- if they did, they'd just mark the price down. What they're hoping is that people will be drawn into the store by the lure of the so-called "discount price", buy the router, then decide it's too much of a hassle to fill out all the forms, mail them, and wait six to eight weeks for the check. It's a rather deceptive marketing practice, just like loyalty cards are.
Most of the big grocery store chains have ATMs from at least one bank; if you haven't been near your own bank's ATMs lately, you can pay the annoying $2 to Bank of America and get cash for your groceries. It's theoretically possible to correlate a long train of grocery card user purchases to ATM withdrawals, but unlikely that anyone would bother.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Perhaps you have some difficulty parsing basic english. "$30" is an important modifier in that sentence. I didn't say no one was talking about underwear, just that no one was talking about hideously overpriced joe boxer crap.
7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
So I used to work in the industry doing analysis of consumer buying habits based on shopper data. I don't happen to think it's bad, but that's besides the point. I would like to point out some facts though because there seems to be some severe misunderstanding about how the industry works. Maybe it will scare you more than you're scared now...
1) 75% of the time the data is used, it's to offer you a coupon. SKU and category level data is stored to your unique ID, and pieces of information like whether you paid cash or credit, which credit card, what denominations of cash you used, time, number of items in your basket, the clerk who helped you, just about everything you can think of is stored. Most of it is thrown out/never used because it doesn't help anyone.
2) Coupons are customized to your shopping profile based on two things: what you just bought, and what you have bought in the past. I've seen demos of crazy applications that would blow your mind. For example, if you bought tartar sauce last year at Lent, the implication is that you're catholic and might be interested in tartar sauce again this Lent. The opportunity to pitch you a coupon will be pitched to the manufacturer at say $.25 per coupon. If you don't want to share your information about this sort of thing, don't expect to get relevant coupons.
3) 20% of the time the information is used, it's in aggregated & repackaged in order to provide market research to all those companies that sell products in the supermarket-- food, toothpaste, etc. This is called scanner data in the trade, and companies like IRI and Nielsen and others use this data so that a brand manager can keep track of weekly sales by region/store/you name it. This is particularly useful to correlate with coupon distributions in newspapers (Free Standing Inserts or FSI's). This way, the brand manager can tweak the face value of the coupons distributed across regions and see the effects very quickly.
4) More and more, as databases get faster (b/c this requires a lot of processing time), you can match lists of addresses against their purchasing habits. Because this information is SO sensitive, it is carefully guarded by the owners (the supermarkets primarily). A supermarket might give this information to 3rd party vendor who has signed on the dotted line that he/she will give away his firstborn if he violates the anonymity of the shopper. For example, if I have a list of 100,000 people that i mailed coupons to, I can submit a list of these shoppers, and find out that 5,000 of them bought my product. I DO NOT KNOW WHO THEY ARE. Two parties do-- the retailer and the sworn-to-secrecy data vendor.
5) The stores are not the one's offering the discount, the manufacturer is. The industry has seen massive proliferation in trade promotion-- which are basically kickbacks given to retailers by the manufacturers. Much of their profit comes from these kickbacks. For example, if I'm managing a toothpaste brand, I pay for placement at eye level rather than feet level. Most of the frequent shopper discounts you're seeing are case discounts offered to the retailer in order to drive short term sales (promotions). It used to be that you didn't need a frequent shopper card to get these discounts. Nowadays, you're just plain lucky if the retailer doesn't pocket the case discount.
6) Frequent shopper cards weren't really created with the evil intentions of tracking our shopping habits. Grocery retailing is a brutally competitive business with margins in the 10% range (IIRC), and chain managers were looking for a way to build consumer loyalty. The EXACT same thing happpened with airline frequent flyer miles. What's good for the goose is not good for the gander. Now, you're at a competitive disadvantage if you don't track & make money off of consumer shopper data.
7) Finally, this is not the only industry to do this. Your telephone company, bank, pharmacy, credit card company, etc are all monitoring your activity to determine whethe
I think it really depends on your standing with management and your fiscal reality.
c ro soft_school/index.html
;)
.DOC format. There are all sorts of issues with Office .DOC formats - not the least of which are students who continue to use old versions of Works (which stupidly use a different .DOC format). .DOC is rife with incompatibilities from Works, to Office 95/97, to Publisher (all versions), and international support is all but nil except in 2003. Why use a 'converter' program when Star/OOo can do the job just fine?
.SX* is a true XML format - open, understandable - unlike MS's proprietary one.
The way I did it here was easy: We were BROKE! What choice did we really have? By the time the fiscal crisis ended, all but senior administration made the switch.
I wouldn't have been so enthusiastic years ago when OOo was in beta (and buggy as hell!), but times have changed. 1.1.0 is awe inspiring when you consider the price!
Ways to convince management:
1) Make them part of the process. First, make a presentation showing OOo opening MS Word documents and basic document manipulation. At the end of the presentation, give everyone a copy of OOo, or even better still, a copy of the Open CD 1.2.
Giving them ownership is half the battle. They will naturally wonder what's wrong with it, why is it free, etc. In the age of viruses and spyware, it is easy to understand. Be patient with their questions.
2) The are more advantages than price - be sure they know this. PDF and Flash compatibility are big sticks to swing, so is Sun's support of OOo.
3) Consider StarOffice 7. It's a professional package with support and schools can get it for the cost of the media. Call Sun - seriously. When Sun gives you a schoolwide license (and they will), tell management that Sun has donated the newest version of StarOffice to the school. THAT'S hard to say no to.
OOo can still be offered to students and teachers as a 'library CD' to take home, copy, whatever. Again, I recommend the Open CD for this because of it's clear, concise installation. It also has info about Open Source Software.
4) Don't forget the teachers, but have administration support first. Here's the thing: You will find that every org out there has been through gut wrenching changes over the years. Many folks that have been around for a while will remember the days of Wordperfect, XYWrite, and Word for DOS. Gently remind them that change is inevitable and that where computers are concerned, change is MANDATORY.
5) Remind them of their responsibility to the taxpayers. How much more of our tax dollars should go to MS directly? Ask them what they think.
6) When presenting to the teachers, I gave every one of them a copy at the end. All of the teachers were a bit wary about our switch, and one of them stood up and challenged me. I looked over at the headmaster and then back at them and said, "Well... Which teacher would like to give up his or her job so that we can give money to MS for Office licenses?" Obviously, no one moved.
See, that's what it all comes down to - money given to MS is less money for everything else they want - stress that. And the price of unlicensed software is far too high to contemplate. Check out this article for yet more ammunition - it scared the hell out of us:
http://dir.salon.com/tech/feature/2001/07/10/mi
Make sure they understand that with Sun, license compliance would be easy. One license, done. Of course with OOo, its.. Well... DONE!
7) Don't be cowed by the 'awesome' invincibility of the
No, compatibility isn't perfect, but you have to investigate what the teachers and administrators are doing. I'll bet you NONE of them use anything more complex than tables. In that case, you're clear. If they are using tons of macros, you may need to make some exceptions.
Also, remind them that
I hope that helps, I would certainly be willing to help you in any way that I can. My email address is:
admin[nospamm]@lindenhall.org
Good luck!
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
The fake or missing address means that they can't send you any coupons, but they see to send me too much bulk paper even without it. They can still track large purchasers. Some chains will give you coupons printed at the cash register if your total is above $X. One chain used to give you "Ham Bucks" coupons which could be used to buy a ham at Christmas time; their database analysis didn't extend as far as noticing whether I ever bought meat products...
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Comment removed based on user account deletion
COMPLETELY off-topic, but what the holy hell do you drive? A fricken semi?
'Standards' in computing only impress those who are impressed by things like 'standards'.
1. Use cash.
2. Use fake info on member cards - or swap cards with others, or find "lost" cards outside the store (they litter the area!).
3. Don't use the same store all the time.
4. Use cash.
Don't even get me started on the RFID tags embedded in the tires of automobiles...
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
I was about to respond to each reply, but to save time:
According to the US Department of Commerce
"the average poverty threshold for a family of four in 2002 was $18,392 in annual income;
compared with $14,348 for a family of three"
With that kind of income in relationship to their family size, food is a major factor in their budjet. If they are saving even 10% or one free month a year, that is a big savings in relationship to their income.
They might get clothes for their kids with that kind of money...
"Only one thing, is impossible for god: to find any sense in any copyright law on the planet." Mark Twain
I don't shop at walmart either because of all the other people that do. Parking lots are like a warzone and the checkout lines aren't much better.
I hit WalMart maybe once a year before my son was born, for exactly this reason. Why fight the crowds?
After I became a SAHM, though, I discovered it was a whole 'nother place on Monday morning, and the cheapest place in town to buy diapers, *and* I could pick up pretty much everything I needed there (99% of which was stuff I never considered owning until I became a parent, of course) with one stop, which is a major deal when you're having to get an infant carrier in and out of the car, etc.
Then Albertson's pulled out, so now I'm at the Super WalMart twice a week (but never evenings and weekends) grocery shopping, because the only alternative is a Kroger-owned chain with loyalty cards. Bah. (And I hear Albertson's has implemented the cards, too, but back when they were here in Kansas they were pimping "Low prices without the card!" Heh.)
Slashdot's token middle-aged housewife
I'm a student at York University, Toronto. RFID is coming in a lot around here. We've had Speedpass at Esso stations. It's a little tiny tag on your keyring, that you use to pay for gasoline so you don't have to gon into the store. Now there's "Dexit", which is similar to Speedpass, but is supposedly more widely adopted. The rep at their booth (they have booths at the student Centre on capmpus for a couple weeks now, pushing very heavily) says lots of downtown stores have Dexit readers. I have seen 2 stores.
The Dexit can have up to $100 dollars on it. and can only be used to purchase $25 worht of goods per day. it's meant to be used for small stuff, such as lunch, a snack, etc...
-<ASP>-
My User Agent: "Where is the pr0n?"
guess this'll bring in a niche market for non-RFID stores. I'd shop there.
But besides, who really cares if someone is tracking what you're buying? If you're not buying 10 gallons of nitro glycerine every week, then why should you care if a company can see what you're buying? The worst that could happen is that they'll see you have a certin taste for anchovies and then give you a coupon for it. Grow up. And then people will say "oh, give them an inch and they'll take it a mile. next thing you know they'll have you in little lines like robots, mind slaves to the corporate machines!" No, that won't happen. Stop whinning and being ridiculous, I'm tired of people in general having such a problem with this privacy thing. To all those who think the corporate machine has already taken over, I think I've found a new shampoo for your whinny asses to try out.
Wouldn't you rather get coupons for something you could actually use (baby formula in your case) rather than something like adult diapers (which I hope you can't use)? It makes sense to me!
Can you say ... "dumping"? I knew you could. Wal-Mart just took a lesson from Japanese elctronics manufacturers, that's all.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
RFID is here and it will obviously continue to grow, as there are numerous advantages to both business and consumer.
What's more, we will see (probably in our lifetime), the government mandating RFID chips implanted in every person - ie- the famed "mark of the beast" in Revelation.
Just imagine another 9-11 style attack, except this next one will be a small suitcase nuke. One attack, destroying a large portion of a major US city, and the clamour for "SECURITY" will outweigh all our demands for "privacy rights".
The feds will argue that they must be able to track what we buy and sell, in order to prevent terrorism. No simpler way to do that than to require everyone be implanted with a biochip, in order to buy or sell.
Check out the technology at:
Applied Digital Solutions
Here's something you might want to do when it comes to cycles. Examine each cycle and compare, and contrast each one to the other. Now if each cycle was like the other, then one should be able to apply what worked previously to the present cycle and gain the same results. But that's not happening, so that tells you that somethings different than the previous cycle. Note also that presently most proponents statements that globalization is good, are based on economic models. One all models are subject to GIGO. Two because these are models things are going to slip though. Slip through in a weather model can be the difference between it just raining, and a tornado blowing your house away. What difference would economic slip through make? Also as well, remember there are many things happening in the world, from social, to environmental, from health to wealth, religion to war, all interacting in ways that make it difficult to have an acounting. What does that mean? Basically that any one thing may not cause things to tip over, but a convergence could be the thing that rewrites the "Book of Cycles". So maybe it will and maybe it will not, but I bet that neither one of us can guarentee a particular outcome. Cycle or not.
...retailers are going to collect information about what you buy. And none of that happened.' Is that why I have two loyalty cards on my keyring and three more in my wallet?"
I just started going to a new grocery store. No loyalty cards. No coupons in the newspapers. No sales gimmicks in the aisles. They don't even bag your groceries. Just a big warehouse full of the same stuff you'd buy anywhere else, without all the fuss. I'm spending half as much money for the same stuff. Really. I'm not paying for marketing managers, tracking databases, newspaper spreads, etc. I'm just paying for my groceries. Fewer annoyances, and costs less. Maybe there is a god who hears our prayers. Whoda thunk - I'm gonna get religion on account of grocery shopping!
Fucking RFID tags. Who's paying for them? You are. Bend over and say thank you, give me another.
You just need a little more initiative.
cloning a proximity card
I imagine it would be possible to make the chip smart enough to do some kind of cryptographic authentication, but there's no way that would be worth it for inventory.
I kinda hope they get around to it for authentication though. That just makes me nervous.
I rarely criticize things I don't care about.
As long as they don't track your pharmacy account! Then someone would notice all the excess Robitussin you're buying and call out the robocops.
Karma: It's all a bunch of tree-huggin' hippy crap!
That was an incredibly insightful and informative reply, if you ask me. Thanks for sharing.
Nobody is forcing you to get a "loyality card". You sold yourself into the information slavery on that one.
Whereas RFID is something nobody of us can do anything about. Should I note any of my stores start using them, however,m I *will* stop purchasing goods there and I *will* let their management know.
And all my co workers.
And my friends.
And my family.
And my acquaintances.
And the roughly 10k monthly visitors of my personal homepage.
You get the idea.
Did you not read the article, sir? Stores that impliment a loyalty card system RAISE THEIR PRICES TO DO SO. This is not what I'd call a discount! This is stealing my $5 to offer me $4.99!
earlier story
Karma: It's all a bunch of tree-huggin' hippy crap!
Another of many reasons you get so many off topic replies, and should change it, is that it's very weak logically. You could simply have said that you believe in god, but instead, you make a very large claim that is difficult to prove without researching each individual scientists.
And what is the point of all that research, anyway? All of those scientists could simply be wrong, and some of them have admitted being wrong in the past. Please don't argue this point any farther.
I've already quoted Einstein in his own words calling you a liar, and saying that there is really nothing religious about him, except maybe his "admiration for the structure of the world". Comparing worldly fascination to Christianity is like comparing fat peoples reverence of butter as pious. It's a stretch.
This final Einstein quote makes it more obvious that he should be removed from your list until further proof on your part:Next time you want to dispute someone else's sig (as you cited earlier as the reason for your sig), please take your offense to them, and not pick a fight with the entire world by putting flame bate in your sig. Otherwise you're just arguing about religion pathologically. Though, I think that was your subconscious intention all along. To inject.
So not only will you get carjacked in the future but they will make you give them your wallet as well.
Avast mateys!
Electronically transfer your space doubloons afore I send thee to Davey Jarg's locker!
The power of Christ compiles you!
Winn Dixie's management refused to scan their own card, and would not give the discount. So I left them with the groceries.
Maybe you should buy some stands and change your oil yourself....
//Sorry for sending the comment father off topic - I'm back now (sort of)
Mechanic: That will be $80 for the oil change.
Customer: $80!!!???
Mechanic: Yes sir, $80. $20 for labor and $60 for the oil.
Customer: Why did the oil cost so much?
Mechanic: Well, you have one of those new hybrid cars - they don't use a lot of gas, but boy they like oil!
I hate having a bunch of 1 quart bottles around when my car takes 5 of them. Anyone know of any other place that sells oil that way?
My truck takes 5 quarts and I've found that Autozone carries them in specific brands. Check it out. As an extra plus, moving some extra business to Autozone would probably piss SCO off.
/* Insert some overused slashdot quote here */
i dont see what the big deal is about RFID tags. im sure someone is going to come out with a "RFID finder and deactavitor" wand that you can wave over any products you think might still be active. if you use any "loyality" cards, the stores know what you buy by your UPC codes they scan, anyways.
That's why I have a loyalty card in my wallet with a fake name and address, and always pay cash.
My favorite quote...
"We have coding on the chip that's licensed from the CIA that's really hard to scrape off without permanently damaging the chip"
I feel safer already.
Its kind of funny how hard the guy is struggling to come up with some rational reasons why these tags would be any benifit to consumers at all. I meen, matching different shoe models and exchanging electronic business cards???? These things can already be done electronically (POS terminals/PDA infra-red (does anyone use this??) and doesn't really offer any benifits.
As for phones that can read RFID tags, I am sure that will be secure.
However, from a business-pragmatic sense, there is no stopping it. Walmart can fire everyone but security and the old senile people at the front door and hire monkeys with RFID chips, GPS, and electric-shock collars to stock shelves.
Bastard monkeys, come here and steal our low-paying, inhuman jobs.
surely there are some geeks out there who can provide a second opinion?
Hello Gah man, I think you're swell.
Want to have dinner?
-- Bah woman
la la la I love teletubbies
From the article: "You can also put RFID tags in movie posters and advertisements and use your cell phone as a reader to pick up information from the poster."
He says the cell phone will store your credit info and everything else from your wallet. Then he says cell phones will have RFID readers, and cell phones can exchange data by being close to each other. So everyone's cell phone can read the info in everyone else's cell phone? Anyone who bumps me in a crowd gets the contents of my cell phone? Which includes my credit card, ID, home address, medical info, and car keys. And the reporter didn't question him on this.
He also says exchanges will be encrypted with 3DES. Why not AES?
There is one place where RFID will be infinitely useful, on remote controls. Have you searched for remote control all over the house and found it in the least expected place ( bathroom, kitchen, on top of the tv ;-) ). Imagine if there was an RFID in every remote control and you can get software to tell you where it is. That would be a killer app!
14 Quarts? Okay, sure, lots of people have asked, but if you were driving a 747 you wouldn't need jack stands to get underneath it.
What is it that you drive? A slammed H2 with flat tires?
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Yup....almost 14 qts oil...and 9-10 MPG....not exactly resource friendly...but, fun as hell to drive!!
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Good for you! Did you tell the cashier and/or the manager exactly why you did it and made noise about refusing to be ripped off in earshot of other people (without acting like a total jerk)? If more people knew they weren't really getting discounts, some of them might go elsewhere.
i am a soviet space shuttle
Sorry, but I still beg to differ, on the same basis that such a tag doesn't require anything from me to work. I'd still never allow such a device, because there are already a number of uniquely indetifying parts of my body attached, without the need for an RFID tag. Thumbprints don't require them, nor retinal scans, and both can reasonably only happen with my knowledge, and neither can realistically be stolen from me, especially if both require a passcode of some kind at the same time. Also, the problem with identity theft is that it won't be grisly, it'll be silent and unnoticeable. All I'd need to do is get a hand held tramsceiver and stand next to you on the bus. I'd capture your code on it, and walk away without you ever knowing I had your code. Then I'd embed it on my own RFID tag and walk through the checkout lane, and since it still doesn't challenge me to prove I'm authorized to use the code, you'd be billed for my purchases.
Still love that RFID tag that doesn't care who's actually carrying it?
Virg
I got married a year and a half ago (to a computer geek). But my parents have never been in a position to help with money because they really don't have any either. They also shop at Wal-Mart.
You mean, you can get the cashier at Safeway to shout out loud any word you want? Don't complain, enjoy!
Mr Ihoputa - it's a real Japanese surname.
Ms Foyame - especially if the cashier is female and cute. [there's an acute accent on the final E].
Mr Chupapoyas - especially if the cashier is male and camp.
This applies to the southern USA, but Canadians can have their own equivalent.
I don't know man, nobody with self respect. I live in the city, and we have one wall-mart, and it's not even in center city. As if it's not a pain in the ass enough that you have to drive there, when you get there, everything inside is poor quality, most of the shoppers are obese, and you always end up waiting in like for 45 minutes. Even if they had something I wanted, would saving a few dollars be worth going farther and waiting in line for so long, just to deal with rude cashiers? No, I don't think so. Buying cheap goods ends up costing more in the long run anyway when they break and you have to replace them more quickly. Ours also has groceries, but again it's a joke. Everyone I know shops at the more-expensive-than-average grocery stores like whole foods and trader joe's, not wallmart. Oh wait.. I forgot that they have the most high class resteraunt in our wallmart too... McDonalds.
I'm sorry, wallmart is just ghetto. We have lots of specialty shops, etc., here with all sorts of things that wallmart wouldn't even dream of carrying anyway. I think the only reason why wallmart is popular is that americans are internationally known for being cheap-asses. Me, if I want something, I will save and buy the decent version.
Perhaps we as a country should fight a little harder to keep these jobs here! I'm not enjoying the death of the middle class, as it doesn't bode well for the future. My job isn't going anywhere, (as long as Bush doesn't succeed in his union busting tactics) but I hate watching the people I grew up with hovering at the poverty line.
Send whiskey and fresh horses!
Or is it a particle?
At any rate, here's a nice little paranoid conspiracy theory for you: Just how long do you think it will be before Wal-Mart starts offering low-rent housing in the immediate vicinity of their supercenters? And how long after that do you believe it will be before they start offering Wal-Mart Schools? Then how long will it be before there are entire Walton communities, in which you are born, live, work, play, and buy in?
"We even have a sizable cemetary." - No. 2
Happiness is relative, Based upon the way we live.
You're dead right.
I'm at University in the UK and clothes do wear out, you do need to replace them. For example socks, go into town and they'll cost you ~10 GBP for a pack of 5 pairs if you're lucky. If I go to ASDA (which is owned by Wal*Mart), I get 5 pairs for ~2 GBP ($3.50).
OK, so the difference isn't huge but I am over 800 GBP overdrawn so it does make a difference and that was just one example. It pretty much applies to all clothes.
However, food is cheaper in the shops down my street than at the big supermarkets because I am in Hull, which is a very run-down city in Britian and so the local businesses cater for it well.