Slashdot Mirror
UK High Court Rules Modchips Illegal
PhotoBoy writes "The Register has an article about the UK's High Court ruling PlayStation 2 modchips to be illegal. This means all homebrew and hobbyist coders in the UK can no longer modify their consoles to run games they have written. Gamers who like to mod their consoles to play games on import early are also out of luck. It's like saying you can't modify your car or your house or your clothes! Would Ford sue you for removing the rev limiter from your Focus?"
Making it is illegal to bypass copy protection mechanisms
I have a sharpie that could be used to circumvent the copyright protection. My shift key also would be a violation. The courts won't go after Office Depot or Logitech because you want to go after big fish with money but not enough money to properly defend their selves.
Shouldn't the courts just go after the copyright violators rather than going after all mechanism that could be used to violate copyright? Of course not you know that judge doesn't want to youth playing those nasty region 3+ games; he is doing it for the good of public morals... right?
It seems the UK court ruled on the basis that modchips can be used to circumvent copy protection by allowing the use of recordable media. However, the other use of modchips is to play purchased import games, and there exist so-called "anti-piracy" modchips that allow the latter, while disallowing the former.
Bypassing region codes (as opposed to copy protection) is certainly not illegal, at worst, ambiguous under UK law -- for example, the vast majority of DVD players sold in the UK are modded to be region free as well.
-- Samir Gupta, Ph. D. Head, New Technology Research Group, Nintendo Co. Ltd., Kyoto, Japan.
But the family of the little girl you ran over and killed would. Besides.. It's a Focus.
While yes, there are people who use modchips to play their own, homebrew games, and play imported games, let's not overlook the obvious. People put modchips in their consoles so they can play stolen (ie, burned) games. If people did NOT use modchips for that purpose, this law wouldn't be necessary. But the fact is that the UK high court is not 'ruining your rights' - it's the people who copy and sell games illegally that ruin the fun for everyone. The UK is merely taking steps to stop that. Whether the steps are too far, I don't know and won't argue. But don't think that this is a cut and dried case of trampling of rights. Go bitch at your friends who have a bunch of "Backup copies" of games.
Please note that this was the UK.
Not the US as you may have assumed.
That is all.
you'll still be able to get the mod chips and install them yourselves. I'm not surprised teh courts ruled it illegal because if they didn't, it would set presidence for future cases with other things, not just video game machines.
I guess the real question is, should we be able to moddify what we buy any way we want? apparently, in regards to the UK and PS2, no.
Be seeing you...
I believe that there are jurisdictions in which car mods (or some kinds) are illegal. (California comes to mind).
Great minds think alike; fools seldom differ.
"Would Ford sue you for removing the rev limiter from your Focus?"
No, Ford wouldn't, but this comparison doesn't work. We all know that one of the main uses (I couldn't say the main for sure) for mod chipping is piracy. Theft of intellectual property is rarely, if ever, part of modifying one's car, clothing or house.
"I've got to stop masturbating! It makes me too lazy! Stop it, Albert. Stop it." -- Albert Einstein
well, modifying a car involves the safety of the people around you and should be illegal if this is illegal. The problem always lies in enforcement. So many stupid laws aren't enforeced as it is. Why not just add another.
"the abuse of something is never a good argument against the use of something"
Since region free and Macrovision free players are so plentiful in Europe that they are sold in supermarkets I wonder what would happen if this logic were applied to DVD players?
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
"This means all homebrew and hobbyist coders in the UK can no longer modify their consoles to run games they have written."
I think if you'd like the slashdot community to discuss this intelligently, the article needs to have both sides. It would have been just as easy to say "while this certainly is a big blow to piracy, the rights of other citizens, while a very small population, are being infringed upon.
All to often the submitters skewed view steers the conversation in only one way.
There's nothing Intelligent about Intelligent Design.
Why do I have a feeling this is just the goatse man?
No, I didn't try it and find out, I don't run your crazy hippie operating system.
Much of the rationalization (not from this case, but speakign generally) against mod-chipping game consoles and DVD players is to protect regionalization. That is, to enure that only Japanese PS2 owners can play Japanese-only games and that European DVD owners can only play European region DVDs.
The salient argument to me appears to be: what has ethical precedence? The right of the company to sell two boxes to one person who wants to use media from different regions, or the right of the consumer to make modifications to an object that he or he owns?
Y'know, honestly? So few people are going to mod their machines and this ruling is going to prevent so few people from modding their machines that I have no problem siding with the patentholders.
www.kitchengeek.com -- Nosh for
Not that I agree with this law, but lawmakers probably see mod chips as analogous to mounting guns on your car. There are many legitimate uses for mod chips, but since they don't want to deal with the exceptions, they probably want to completely illegalize the usage.
Earlier this year, the Italian court ruled that mod chips are legal on the basis that it's up to the user, not Sony, how they use their PS2. It even went so far as to name mod chips as crucial tools to "avoid monopolistic positions".
Thumbs up to the Italians, though :)
My dog ate my sig
that will defend our rights to do what ever we like to the products we buy. How come I am not arrested/sued when i buy a kitchen nife. I could possibly kill someone with it. Once you pay for something you now own it. Plain and simple. I'm not renting the hardware from sony. This is what they should have done to those judges. give them a dell computer. Then give them some ram chips. Next have them put the ram into the computer. Now sue them for "modding" the computers.
From TFA: "The UK High Court has judged that the sale, advertisement, possession for commercial purposes and use of PlayStation 2 modification chips is illegal in this country."
An important distinction. It still sucks and I think it's a boneheaded decision, but the true hobbyist remains safe.
For the moment....
Would Ford sue you for removing the rev limiter from your Focus?
I'd say the odds are a lot higher now they will.
I'm not in agreement that modchips should be illegal, but comparing a mod chip to car parts is somewhat dishonest.
How can we continue to believe in a just universe and freedom to eat crackers if we have no ale?
It's like saying you can't modify your car or your house or your clothes!
Modchips serve one purpose: to circumvent technology designed to keep your box from playing pirated or otherwise illegal software. So it's really more like saying you can't modify your car to violate local pollution laws, or that you can't modify your house to violate zoning regulations.
Honestly, I suspect that the majority of mod chips are used to allow people to play pirated games. I suspect that there are a few who write games, but doubt that the average user is going to code up a game. This is a bit like the courts in the UK declaring Uzis sub-machine guns to be illegal because they're used to snuff folks, and people start to complain, "But I *need* one for duck hunting."
I see little problem with this as a measure to prevent piracy. However, in preventing piracy, this runling also infringes substantialy on fair-use. it is hard to say which is more prevelant, but protecting fair use is certainly more important.
At least the Italians seem to believe that this is true.
You modify your clothes?!? You kids today. In my day, that was a hanging offense. Why the whole Vietnam conflict can be traced to it's root clothing modification basis, essentially.
And as for this house modification notion, I understand that you kids hang out at that "Home Depot" head shop. There are still some people who respect the original conception of the builders and wouldn't think of altering it. I'm proud to be one of them.
Modifying a car? How would one even do that, what with the hood welded shut at the factory, like it is? That's just nonsense.
Does that mean that you outlaw knifes because they not only cut meat, but they can kill?
Just because you use mod chips to make illegal copies do not mean that everyone does.
Fight Spammers!
Given that the judge ruled that mod chips are illegal due to the European Union Copyright Directive (EUCD) and that other EU nations (Italy, Spain) have already ruled the chips to be legal, is there any scope for this ruling to be challenged in a higher court because of misinterpretation of the directive?
flossie
Write now. Defend liberty
Please note that this was the UK. Not the US as you may have assumed.
I know that, like all North Americans, when the first letters in a sentence are "UK" I immediately assume they really meant "U.S.A.". If you hadn't been here to correct things I might have gone on with an erroneous interpretation of the article.
Continue your good words, Stater of the Obvious. You are welcome here.
I wonder if this ruling also affects Gamecube modchips? After all, the GC copy protection hasn't been cracked by modchips and the only thing the chips do is circumvent the region lockout (can be done with a certain disk too). I wonder if region lockout is also considered a "copy protection" under the EUCD.
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
It's like saying you can't modify your car or your house or your clothes!
No it's not! You can still paint your car, add a garage to your house, and rip holes your clothes. But you can't put missle launchers on your car, coat your house with crack cocaine, or staple dead babies to your shirt.
Similarly, you can paint your PS2, add NO2 stickers, and attach a bobble-head doll on it. But you can't purchase MOD chips. See? =P
Anyway, I was just pointing out that the submitter got a little carried away with his/her outrage and over-generalization...
I have a Focus. How do I get rid of the rev limiter?
(Sponsored by cheeseSource for President 2012)
Ford would probably sue you because you decided to modify your Focus for speed. Are people ever going to learn that everyday drivers are not muscle, sport, and race cars? With regard to this subject, I think an obligatory link to Maddox is necessary.
>Would Ford sue you for removing the rev limiter >from your Focus?
I doubt Ford would care if you want to rip the engine out of your Focus.
Sure you can go over 40mph, then pay a $1.00 per mph over the limit fine, tracked by their handy GPS system.
I have a flip-top case on my PS2, so I can pop it open, drop in a swap disc, and play my imported games. It can also be used for "back-ups", though (never tried it, personally). Would such a system also be ruled illegal? I'd assume so, but there's no physical "modification" except for replacing the case.
There's also another little swap disk solution which involves removing the CD cover and using a little plastik hook to force the drive open. No "modification" there, just a bit of removal. Still illegal?
I'd be quite interesting to know the court's thoughts on these.
"An infinite number of monkeys typing into GNU emacs would never make a good program."
"Would Ford sue you for removing the rev limiter from your Focus?"
Automobile makers don't sell the hardware at a loss. Ford has already made their money from you, so they don't care. Console makers sell the hardware at a loss to enable software sales/licensing profits. Modifying the hardware doesn't just circumvent their copy-protection, it circumvents their business plan. Would you prefer to pay double or triple for your console so they can make their profit up front?
They take away the licensing fees that they negotiated for that particular region, they also fuck with distribution rights for some games, and they also allow for pirated (and completely unpaid for) games to be played.
Would ford sue you for fucking with your focus? No.. but they would sue the pants off of you if you took a truck load 20 year old Yugos and put focus badges on them just to sell them to the masses. Essentially thats what this judgement defends against. Selling a product that cheats a license holder (or in my focus example a trademark holder) out of making a buck.
The Messiah chips were offered as a way to allow UK PS2s not only to play legitimate US and Japanese games, but pirated titles and back-up copies made by users, which Sony forbids in the UK.
What the hell? Does Sony allow this kind of crap anywhere else? I suppose they don't forbid this kind of use in Japan, eh? Don't want to piss off the local markets.....
Rant aside, I don't see the problem with modchips. People still buy the games, and no one really loses out at all. If you like screwing over your customers, I guess this is a surefire way to go....
My MythTV HowTo
Modchips don't kill people , people kill people with modchipped PS2's and a copy of GTA:Vice City
music lover since 1969
Lots of things can be used for nefarious purposes. It tends to be only those things which elderly legislators and justices are unfamiliar with and for which they have no personal use that get outlawed.
I, for one, would rather live in a world where one is responsible for one's behavior, rather than a world in which one is responsible for everything anyone else has ever done with anything one has produced.
It was a joke! When you give me that look it was a joke.
Once I buy something, it's mine. Oh wait! So not true anymore; now I don't buy, I *lease* under whatever terms my corporate and government masters deign to grant me. God forbid that I should actually *own* something to be used in whatever fashion I see fit. Oh no, I'm just a consumer peon, I can't possibly be allowed such a right!
Max
My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
This ruling makes sense when it comes to making a profit out of selling these chips, but that's about it.
Surely there isn't any law preventing me from just dropping my PS2 on the floor and break it to pieces. If I break it enough it is no longer a PS2, but rather a bunch of broken bits of plastic and electronic components.
So there's nothing stopping one from breaking apart a PS2 in a 'controlled' way, until it no longer is a PS2. Then you have a bunch of electronic bits, which you can modify at will.
The fact that you modify it so that you can play a range of games is up to you. You're not breaking the law, as you didn't mod a PS2.
The Slashdot blurb for this article is wrong and makes an incorrect analogy. The blurb says, "It's like saying you can't modify your car or your house or your clothes!"
But if you read the article, the description of the decision is substantially different: "The UK High Court has judged that the sale, advertisement, possession for commercial purposes and use of PlayStation 2 modification chips is illegal in this country."
The distinction is huge. It means that you are allowed to "modify your car" (to use the proposed analogy). You just aren't allowed to commercialize your modifications. You can tinker all you want, but you can't sell the results of your tinkering.
It's still a significant limitation, but we should at least be arguing about the actual limitation, not the incorrect one.
Flames shooting out of the back of your car are, sadly, not street legal.
It sounds like the submitter is quite astonished that someone would do something like this. Really, it's no different from a proprietary license that says you can't modify, reverse engineer, decompile, or try to get the source code in any way. The way that this is different is that people didn't know before that it was illegal. Now they do. So from now on, someone who clicks "I Agree [not to do anything with my proprietary software]" shouldn't be at all surprised or insulted about this if they choose to buy a PS2.
But we know what the answer to proprietary software was; the rise of GNU/Linux and other free software. Perhaps we'll see a free gaming console emerge (how about GNU Cube?) in the future?
I have discovered a truly remarkable proof of this theorem that this sig is too small to contain.
Would ford sue you for fucking with your focus? No.. but they would sue the pants off of you if you took a truck load 20 year old Yugos and put focus badges on them just to sell them to the masses. Essentially thats what this judgement defends against. Selling a product that cheats a license holder (or in my focus example a trademark holder) out of making a buck.
Misrepresentation and trademark infringement have generally been illegal since before we had electricity.
Why the hell do we need TWO laws to do the same thing? Because it's *FUN*?
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
is that the easiest way to play pirated games on a PS2 doesn't require a modchip but is done by inserting a real game and then using a device to trick it into thinking it's playing that game while you switch in a new (pirated) one. I do beleive the device involved is purely mechanical.
There are plenty of modifications you can make to your car that will get your pulled over and fined heavily. Some major home modifications could also lead to hefty government fines, and more trivial modifications can get you into trouble with your neighborhood association.
There's plenty of precedent for the government regulating what you can do with your own property. I think regulating mod chips is stupid, but the problem is with a badly-conceived law, and not with the UK high court suddenly granting itself new powers, as the poster seemed to be implying.
Of course, said modifications (say, a full-blown race suspension, blower, nitrous, etc.) might make your vehicle into something which cannot legally be driven on state roads, but there's nothing inherently illegal about the vehicle itself, or owning it, or indeed using it at a properly equipped racing facility.
It was a joke! When you give me that look it was a joke.
Some links to the said items.
http://www.success-hk.com/review/ps2fliptop/
http://www.success-hk.com/review/ps2slidetool/
"An infinite number of monkeys typing into GNU emacs would never make a good program."
Some of the few remaining free lands in the world. *cries*
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
If so few people do it, why does the government care? Because big companies put big pressure on the gov't to make sure nothing inteferes with their buisness model. And if that means squashing a 1% minority group who decided to make changes to their PS2 or XBox THAT THEY'RE LEGALLY ENTITLED TO DO UNDER FAIR USE, then so be it. "Fuck 'em", the company says. It's their way or the highway.
"Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned for SEGA. ..."
Would Ford sue you for removing the rev limiter from your Focus?
Yes, if removing the rev limiter allowed you to distributed an unlimited number of duplicates of your Focus.
I seem to recall the NRA getting in a fury over people trying to outlaw guns in the U.S. because only a "minority" of gun-owners actually shoots people or commits crimes. Thus, guns are totally legal here today. Much of the U.S. Bill of Rights is based on protecting the minority from majority opinion. I think that trying to make mod-chips illegal hurts the minority of modders over the majority of piraters: it's still not a good solution.
While I personally believe I have the right to mod/break/fix anytthing I own, I don't know the state of this issue in the USA. Does anyone know what current US law says about mod chips? I thought they were possiblly illegal but no one was sueing anyone yet. Anybody?
"Capital punishment makes the state into a murderer. Imprisonment makes the state into a gay dungeon-master"
Would Ford sue you for removing the rev limiter from your Focus?
This is completely different from adding something to make your vehicle do something illegal.
It is one thing to remove a component of a product and another thing to add something to it to intentionally do something against the law. All that could happen if you remove your governor (NOT Gray Davis) is you void your warranty.
I expect it's a very small proportion of modchip users that use the chips for this purpose. I'm glad they have become illegal, they do nothing but damage to the gaming industry and everyone involved.
If the ruling on mod chips is such a blow to your rights, stop buying PS2 games. Go play games on a platform you support. Moral high ground or good games. You live in your world, you play in theirs, you play by their rules.
Would Ford sue you for removing the rev limiter from your Focus?
Thats what they are doing, but the intent is to only let you give rides to Sony approved people.
Realtor: "This is a modern luxory home built by Home2.0. Pricing for Family Unit Licenses vary based upon geographic location, Regional Demographics, size of Family Unit and estiamted annual income for the course of your License. Base Per Family Unit Licenses start at $750,000.00 in the California Bay Area."
/. down as trolls." *sigh*
Home Buyer: "Base Per Family Unit License????"
Realtor: "Yes, your mortgage provides you a Family Unit License authorizing you use of the Home2.0 product for 1 Family Unit until transferance of that license to another Family Unit."
Home Buyer: "Use? But I'm here to buy, not rent."
Realtor: "But, you do buy! You buy the Family Unit License to use the Home2.0 product for your Family Unit."
Home Buyer: "So if I'm buying only a license, who owns the home?"
Realtor: "Home2.0 of course. They retain the exclusive right to monitor your home usage and make regular maintenance inspections and install upgrades as needed to insure standards of living compliance."
Home Buyer: "And I always modded those "1984" Posts on
Just tried it, it's not the goatse man, it's some crazy Japanese cartoon in front of a picture of an atomic bomb going off (with a purple filter), with some Kanji on it that I don't understand.
Weird, but still a troll.
We all know how much having an easily modded console has hurt Sony. The PS1 was a disaster, I was amazed by their determination to stay in the market with the PS2. Mean while companies that have gone out of their way to prevent mods and piracy like Nintendo are eating their lunch. Just look at the market share numbers... uh-oh, wait a minute!
But remember, accuracy is not the point here. We're here to complain about how the Damn Liberal Government and Liberal Press are making us run windows instead of Linux.
People who like to run their own home-brew games!? Come on! What crap!
Oh and the poor people who like to play imports that aren't licensed for play in their market anyway... Who knew doing something illegal was illegal?!? Now we know!
Why the hell do we need TWO laws to do the same thing? Because it's *FUN*?
Because it makes them easier to enforce. If I owned proprietary technology and licensed its use I would most certainly want to make sure that I made every penny I was supposed to. If I didn't want to make money, I wouldn't have licensed it.
Forgive the ignorant American, but since the law seems to be based off of a law of the EU, can the case be carried further, into EU-based courts?
I seem to remember reading that several countries' high courts' decisions have been overruled by EU Human Rights courts in the past. Is there something similiar that can be used in this situation?
They have a legal use, so that cant be used as a valid argument.
However, the 'circumventing encryption' part of the mod chips can be used as 'the argument'.. as that's not legal at all, even for personal use.. ( though personally if its MY hardware I should be allowed to do ANYTHING to it as long as I don't profit from it or expect them to fix it after i toast it.. )
---- Booth was a patriot ----
As the father of two young children, I took what I thought was adequate precautions to protect my game collection. I placed the PS2 games up on a shelf out of their reach and changed the disk for them when they wanted to play. One day a friend was over and while I was out of the room he gets a game down off the shelf to look at the cover art or manual and places it on the coffee table. In a matter of minutes the toddler is attracted to the bright, shiny packaging and the even brighter, shinier game DVD inside. Almost instantly a $50 disk is scratched and unplayable in spite of all the precautions I had taken. I contacted the company to see if I could get a replacment disk for a discounted price and was told that I would have to buy the whole package again for full price. After that I made DVDR backups of the games I had bought and modified the PS2 to play the backups. While I am sure many use modchips to copy games they do not own, don't condemn the technology when it has legitimate uses as well.
Fucking pigs, fuck Tony he is getting the fuck out of my government, I want that bitch deported to the US the second the election is over. Mod chips are generally just blank PICs that have been programmed to give a certain output on seeing a certain input on their pins. As an engineering student this outrages me, no-one is going to tell me what I can and cant do with something as harmless as a PIC in my own home. If they want to ban selling these things then maybe I could live with that, but its my fucking God-given right to do this in my own home, just like it is to dance around listening to Britney spears. I bet this is Blunketts doing, that basterd would love to ban everything under the sun and start giving out curfews, infact the Taliban would have loved him - there, go find the remainder of them and join their club, maybe you can help them ban laughter and implement an iris scanning ID card system. Ok, thats the end of the rant, now its time for me to RTFA before I hit submit, wow Italy says its cool, and they have military conscription, maybe thats something else Blunkett could push on us. This really needs to be changed right now, possession for non-commercial purposes is legal, so why isnt use? The EUCD must be scrapped, bring on the PIC-ASM PS2 Mod-chip T-Shirts and lets go down Westminster and give it to them. After the pub that is..
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
I'm not sure that the judge was restricting it to simply commercial purposes as Sony raised the following issue that the judge seemed to accept.
This is in section 35 of the judgement that can be found on the Court Service site
Sony also raises a claim under s. 296ZA. This provides a cause of action against the users of anti-copy-protection devices. It provides, insofar as material;
(1) This section applies where -
(a) effective technological measures have been applied to a copyright work other than a computer program; and
(b) a person (B) does anything which circumvents those measures knowing, or with reasonable grounds to know, that he is pursuing that objective.
To the extent that Mr Ball has himself installed Messiah2 chips and used the console so modified, there appears to be no defence to this claim.
Normal disclaimer IANAL
In the UK? They might now. Sounds like it could be worth their while.
>Because it makes them easier to enforce.
Now, if that isn't complete doublespeak, I don't know what is!
More laws = harder to enfore. You have more work to do to prove the defendant guilty.
>If I owned proprietary technology and licensed its use I would most certainly want to make sure that I made every penny I was supposed to.
Uhhh, yeah, we're not talking IP license breaking, we're talking misrepresentation. The former requires an agreement between two parties to mean anything, the latter requires that someone sells something that isn't what it is.
Selling a Yugo with a Ford stick is COMPLETELY legal if you write on the ad "2004 YUGO WITH FORD STICKER!".
>If I didn't want to make money, I wouldn't have licensed it.
Then... why would you make a license with a modchip maker?
Clearly you didn't. So they never broke a license. Therefore, your beef isn't with the modchip maker.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
In Asmovs robot stories, it was illegal to perform maintenence/certain modifications a robot because US Robotics never sold their robots, they leased them and retained the rights to those actions themselves.
Microsoft and other software companies retain the rights for copying and modifying their code for the similar reasons. They don't sell you the product, they give you a license to use their product.
This is worse than either of those instances because in those cases, a contract/license agreement is icluded and uderstood at the time of the purchase.
Have we already entered the age when posession of property is no longer assumed by law to belong to the purchaser?
Or, to put it differently, are we seeing the end of our right to own property?
The real issue isn't that mod chips can be used for theft, its weither or not you can modify YOUR property. If you by a painting, and decide to cut it down to fit in a smaller frame, you have the right to do that, even though it modifies the origonal IP of the painter, because you OWN the painting. Logically, if you actually own your PS2 you should be able to mod it, paint it pink, and use it as a doorstop if you want, because YOU OWN IT.
To use all these gun and knife analogies running around, murder is always classified in the degree which it happened, the adjectives "shot" and "stabbed" are just media hype. You never hear the judge say "you're convicted of murder, but since you shot the guy in the head, which hurts a lot less than stabbed in the gut, you only get 10 years."
>> from your Focus?"
>
> No, Ford wouldn't, but this comparison doesn't
> work. We all know that one of the main uses (I
> couldn't say the main for sure) for mod chipping
> is piracy. Theft of intellectual property is
> rarely, if ever, part of modifying one's car,
> clothing or house.
So what?
Piracy is an illegal act. And AFAIK you cannot assume (not in the USA, nor UK or Spain) that anyone is guilty of an illegal act, so your asumption is plain invalid!
For the most part, this is a bad ruling. But please: "This means all homebrew and hobbyist coders in the UK can no longer modify their consoles to run games they have written." This is so much a load of crap, it is simply dishonest because we all know what most modchips are used for. It may be just fine as an argument to fool the believers with, but most other people are smart enough to understand that for the most part, modchips facilitate piracy. And if that's not true, well, it's what most non-Slashdotters believe.
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
Your reading (where the scope of "commercial" in "commercial purposes and use" is broad, so that only commercial use is explicitly forbidden) is not plausible, because then the whole sentence isn't grammatical. In a list, the last item needs to be separated by "and", which means the list is:
1. sale
2. advertisement
3. possession for commercial purposes
4. use
So it is as bad as we feared - it is illegal to use a mod-chip, irrespective of the commercial nature of the use.
Your Ford Focus has a rev limiter to stop you spinning it up to the point where its shitty Pinto-derived engine, original design dating back to crappy American cars from the 1970s, drops its guts in an embarrassing oily mess. Just 'cos I can rev my 1978 Citroen GSA to 9600rpm, doesn't mean you '04 Ford will even get halfway there...
#1] This means all homebrew and hobbyist coders in the UK can no longer modify their consoles to run games they have written.
.05% of all Playstation owners.. and oh BY THE WAY.. Sony DOES sell a special DEVELOPER Playstation, so hey, be legal and buy THAT one!
.05% of all Playstation owners.
OK, sorry to those
#2] Gamers who like to mod their consoles to play games on import early are also out of luck.
And sorry to you guys too, you
And last but not least, sorry to the other 99.99% of you who mod your consoles to steal games. Stealing, my friend, is illegal.
Do you people even know that running backup copies of original games ruin your PS2? That is why you shouldn't run them, ok?
"This means all homebrew and hobbyist coders in the UK can no longer modify their consoles to run games they have written, and criminals who violate copywrite laws can no longer play the games they illegally downloaded and burned ."
We all know that these mod chips have limited legitimate uses, but it is intellectually dishonest of the Slashdot crowd to intentionally ignore the primary purpose of these chips.
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
This is the same country that requires you to pay a usage tax on televisions you own.
Huh?
More laws = harder to enfore. You have more work to do to prove the defendant guilty.
Actually, the amount of work has nothing to do with it. You have twice as many possible charged to put against them, thereby making it an even greater possibility that they'll get to the courts.
Uhhh, yeah, we're not talking IP license breaking, we're talking misrepresentation. The former requires an agreement between two parties to mean anything, the latter requires that someone sells something that isn't what it is.
We are very clearly talking about license breaking. Software companies are licensed to distribute games in a particular region. By offering a region breaking chip you are allowing somoene else to profit when they aren't supposed to. Thats how licensing works. Selling a Yugo with a Ford stick is COMPLETELY legal if you write on the ad "2004 YUGO WITH FORD STICKER!".
How true. My example involved replacing all badges on the Yugo with focus branding. The whole point of that is that the consumer is supposed to think he is getting a focus.
Then... why would you make a license with a modchip maker?
Clearly you didn't. So they never broke a license. Therefore, your beef isn't with the modchip maker.
Of course I didn't license them to sell their mod chips. Their mod chips infringe on the licenses that I already sold to others. Thats why I am sueing them!!! I can't make money if they circumnavigate my licensed sellers.
Wouldn't it be more along the lines of "It's like the government making it illegal to buy and use a modification that makes a semi-automatic rifle a fully automatic rifle."? At least, in the US this would apply. Other countries have different gun laws.
You're taking something that is legal and using a modification that makes it illegal. The now fully automatic gun could be used for firing down at the range and for home protection (just as people could use PS mod chips for non-illegal purposes).
I am not a *blank*, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
No, this is
Give me _one_ other use for which an Uzi was designed.
Apart from pirating, mod chips allow you to play whatever imported titles you feel like playing.
But since I do not own a PS/2 in the first place, I don't care if you let them take your options away from you.
Your analogy is defective. Putting Focus badges on Yugos for sale could be fraud, and there is no fraud involved in improving a game machine.
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
That analogy is pretty false. Making a totally seperate product illegal is a far cry from making it illegal to create immitation products and sell them as originals. The analogy of making it illegal to modify your car with aftermarket parts is _far_ more applicable. An even stronger functional equivalent would be making cars that don't go over 65 mph and modifying them to do so illegal.
case of where technology can't keep up with marketing and sales. Since the manufacturer can't restrict usage of their hardware they've found an easy fix. The courts.
I think they should create their own remedy and not rely on a societal function to do it for them. If they have a problem with individuals pirating their property then they should go after them.
"You can still ... add a garage to your house"
Not always, you need a building permit in most areas
Or Tony "The Poodle" Bliar
Come on my little Britties. Time for a revolution.
A recent Volvo concept car (YCC, or Your Concept Car) designed with a woman in mind in fact features a latched hood only user serviceable by the authorized Volvo dealer... Sure this is going to "possibly" prevent the spread of modchips...but what consumer benefit (i.e. lower prices) will be seen as a result of this legislation?? I think you all know that answer.
England is one of the most oppressive, freedom-hating, contries in the world.
This kind of bullshit wouldn't happen in the US. Damn, I'm glad we kicked their ass out of America!
I am a british citizen and as far as I'm concerned the legal parasites who run the UK courts have not the slightest bit of interest in the rights of the ordinary citizen as they've demonstrated over and over again. All they're interested in is cuddling up to big business and various politically correct pressure groups. If you want an example a bunch of afghan aircraft hijackers have recently been given political asylum. Yes thats right HIJACKERS! I'm sorry if this seems like a troll , its not meant to be , I'm just someone who feels like big brother is rapily descending in this country and we don't have the power to do anything about it. This example with the mod chips is just another small example.
It's EXACTLY a cut and dry case of trampling rights. It doesnt matter if some people use it for wrong, to protect against those people, however numerous, it's trampling on the rights of others.
When mod chips are outlawed, only outlaws will use mod chips.
In other words, will the legeslation prevent those who are already doing illegal things from continuing to do so? No. Will it prevent those who have legitimate purposes from doing so legally? Yes. Therefore, the only people it tramples on are the ones with legitimate reasons.
I don't care if the intent is good. The means suck.
I can own these objects, I can buy these objects. I can do whatever I want with these objects, even assembling them to 99% functionality. But if you manufacture a 100% operational Machine Gun, we're looking at ten-to-fifteen in Federal, Pound-Me-In-the-Ass Prison.
This reasoning is absurd, especially on the part of the BATF. See, they make it easy to purchase the parts, but you can't do anything with them.
What's the fucking point? BATF won't issue a Special Tax Stamp on any Machine Gun made after or the initial paperwork filed on after 1986. So why do they allow me to buy the parts? I'm just trying to build a blank-only Sten for use with my WWII Re-enacting group.
Rulings like this are simultaneously inane and frustrating. You can own the parts, you can sell the parts, you can buy the parts but you can't USE the parts. Much like my suppressor and the damned collapsible stock I bought for my HK91.
Here's hoping that September 13th goes the way we all want it to, not that it'd solve my quandary with my dumb Sten that I've wasted a hundred bucks on so far (let alone the damned HK stock I've wasted a hundred and a half on)
ALL HAIL THE BEAST THAT ASCENDETH FROM THE PIT WITH HIS CUTE WIDDLE NOSE =^o.o^=
It's good to know the US isn't the only refuge for the dumbest, greediest, most fear-driven courts and politicians on the planet. There's no justification at all for an edict like this, but protecting corporate "property" is the sole role of English speaking government, I guess.
We all know that the modifications they are refering to allow you to play illegal backups of games. Its time for the sit-at-home-and-do-nothingers to pay. Personally, I sold my console a few years ago.
...of the proprietary technology lockdown. Please, all you who understand negative consequences of proprietary technologies for yourself in the future, consider switching to open technologies instead.
Because in the long time scale, all this stuff is not about technology or so called intellectual property or simple capitalised greed. It is about rulership and power.
There you are, staring at me again.
>You have twice as many possible charged to put against them, thereby making it an even greater possibility that they'll get to the courts.
And the court case takes twice as long to argue, and the defence has twice as many chances to find inconsistencies in the prosecution's claims.
>We are very clearly talking about license breaking. Software companies are licensed to distribute games in a particular region. By offering a region breaking chip you are allowing somoene else to profit when they aren't supposed to. Thats how licensing works.
That's exciting. What kind of country is it where you can enter a contract without a signature? That's awesome. Perhaps I can try one on for size:
"By clicking 'submit' you owe me $100"
What license are you talking about? Do you think the modchip makers used your software? Hell no. No signature = no agreement = no license.
Don't start telling me that because the modchip works with your software that there's some form of implied license, lest I start telling you that the warranty on my motherboard also applies to my mouse.
>My example involved replacing all badges on the Yugo with focus branding. The whole point of that is that the consumer is supposed to think he is getting a focus.
Oh. I see. So you think they're selling a Yugo as a Ford. That's definately illegal.
When I sell a modchipped (I didn't sign your "license", so go suck on a lemon) PS2, I don't sell it as an XBOX. I sell it like this "Brand New PS2 V9/V10 with Magic/Mars Modchip - $399.99" (CDN). If you think that's misrepresentation, well, I think you should look closer. Here's my ad, if you would like to look at it.
>Of course I didn't license them to sell their mod chips.
I didn't license you to reply. Does that mean you're not allowed to?
>Their mod chips infringe on the licenses that I already sold to others.
And when someone brings me a satellite receiver that's locked out because it was given to them (NO SIGNATURE) by a religious community to only watch their station, and I unlock it, you think I'm infringing a license?
Get real.
>Thats why I am sueing them!!! I can't make money if they circumnavigate my licensed sellers.
WTF? So... wait... Right now I'm not "licensed" to sell BOSE in any way, shape, or form. BOSE won't sell me anything wholesale without me being licensed. I say, "fuck that", I walk down to the BOSE store, buy up some speaker systems, and I put them in my store for sale.
And you're suggesting I'm breaking the law? Are you INSANE?
I think you need to read up on contract law a bit more.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
computors should be illegal, and with them videogames. After all, computors are constantly used to cause millions of dollars and in some cases dozens of lives, to be lost. And likewise several armies have publicly admitted to training their soldiers with videogames... therefore it can be said that videogames cause violence. But of course we know thats all bullshit. just like we know this law is bullshit. The actions of the highly publicized few do not reflect in any way shape or form on the actions of the unpublicized many. no matter what these anti-gamer asshats want you to believe, the "bad guys" they have been pulling out of their hats are almost nonexistent. Technically low enough in numbers to be considered a nonentity. and if mod-chips are illegal, what about SDK's for pc games? those can be used to make hacks such as OGC and ltfx. but of course once again thats proven bullshit because anyone who does NOT have a near-terminal case of cranial rectumitis knows that SDK's are really used by the majority to create legit mods. likewise the the modchips. how do you think they got their names? -Shadow of Eternity
A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
"This means all homebrew and hobbyist coders in the UK can no longer modify their consoles to run games they have written."
Eh? You do realize that those people represent a very MINUTE portion of modchip users. Let's be blunt and to the point: modchips exist so one can copy and own PS2 games without paying for them. Flat out, that's what they're made for. That's what I use it for as well as almost every other modchip owner.
In any case, this law doesn't matter much. This is just another one of those laws that people make a big stink about that turn out to be nothing to worry about, and rightfully so because if it affects you, just order a pre-modded PS2 from a shop overseas. Problem solved. It's not like they're gonna scan mail and see a PS2 and decide to open it up.
We have secretly replaced these Slashdot mods' sense of humor with a rusty nail. Let's see if they notice!!
Too true. But illegality follows the car mod-chip people, too, violating emissions laws in order to gain power, sometimes even with a switch to put you back in "clean" mode to fool emissions tests. Is the "main use" to break emissions laws? No... but in this case, the "main use" (more horsepower) will *always* result in breaking the emissions law. At least with a PS2 modchip, using it to play homebrew games does not automatically violate copyrights.
Sure, it's not copyright violation per se, but quite a lot you can do to your car (including a replacement ECU, just like a mod chip) opens the door for breaking the emissions laws.
Clothing is a tough one-- about the only mods you could perform that result in breaking the law are those that put you in violation of indecency or profanity statutes. Which you could do, but it's easier to just be naked. You could violate somebody's copyright here, though-- with either a counterfit "aye caramba" t-shirt with Bart Simpson on the front, or a rip-off copy of some designer clothes.
Houses are easy-- it doesn't take you much time doing small wiring or structural repairs to a house, or making minor changes to wiring to violate housing codes. Put Cat5 in your wall? Is it really the right type for installing in a wall? My house was "modded" by the previous owner, who removed two vertical supports from the basement stair rail. Looks fine, works fine, but was a code violation according to the housing inspector. As was a repair to one of the floor joists, even though the only change to meet code was to use a board 1" wider to patch it.
Who the hell modded this insightful?
That was the *dumbest* argument I've ever heard.
The other replies explain why, so I won't even waste my time.
Great scott! You dont' say!
In this sort of arena there are two possible directions to write laws. You either go with "It's generally legal but has some illegal uses." or "It's generally illegal but has some legal uses.". You then write the law to deal with the majority then add clauses/restrictions/other laws to handle the exceptions.
If something is generally used legally for positive and productive things (e.g. computers, knives and even cars) then you make laws that protect their legal use and then add laws that prevent their dangerous/negative use. So in the case of computers there are laws that are used to prosecute those who crack into systems to cause damage, in the case of cars there're laws that allow you to use them only after proper training in their safe use and when in a fit state to do so. And so on for other cases.
If something is predominantly used in harmful ways or to commit or prevent the detection of things that are already crimes (e.g. mod chips used to play pirated games, equipment to change the IMEI number of stolen mobile phones &c) then you make the thing itself illegal and add other laws to allow it's possession and use in the exceptional circumstances.
It really is that simple and clear.
Stephen
"Don't write down to your readers, the only people less intelligent than you can't read" - Sign on Newspaper Office Wall
Keep in mind that the codes for info going in and out of the "brain box" in your car that mechanics use to trouble-shoot problems, these are in fact proprietary, and for the most part keep independent mechanics from working on newer cars. And, probably would keep the average auto buff from doing mods as well.
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
Give me _one_ other use for which an Uzi was designed
He did. Duck Hunting. You pretty much do need modern assault weapons to take out today's highly evolved animals. These things can fly after all. And see it's pretty much worked. What's the duck population of Israel, where the uzi was designed?
Thanks to the internet, we can now all die alone together! -SomeWoman
It does not matter if every single mod chip was used to play ripped games. The issue is whether we own what we buy. It appears that consumers in the UK do not.
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
My xbox is modified, but remains chipless, I can use whatever I want, including hum "illegal" hum software such as copied game and illegally compiled software (such as xbox media center). Since I bought the hardware, and at the condition of a free SDK being widely used (instead of M$ one) would I be illegal to run application compiled for my hardware with this free SDK? I just hope not.
Amateur car modifications can result in car malfunction. In theory, such damaged car could get out of control and become threat for other cars, or pedestrians.
Amateur modification of computer hardware cannot be dangerous, except fire and/or electric shocks...
how is removing a rev limiter from a car similiar to using a product that enables you to steal an unlimted amount of game titles. Must be that crazy, sunlight deprived gamer logic working there.
"It'll destroy you if you try to make it mean anything to anyone but yourself." - Henry Rollins
Please! Try to be a little less melodramatic next time if you want someone to take you seriously.
Not being able to mod proprietary hardware designed for the sole purpose of playing proprietary games (and clearly advertised as such) is a world away from true risks to your freedom. Come back when you have a legitimate gripe (such as not being able to run home-built software on a PC).
...This means all homebrew and hobbyist coders in the UK can no longer modify their consoles to run games they have written. Gamers who like to mod their consoles to play games on import early are also out of luck
OK i'd take the 0.1% argument for the PS2 but this probably applies to the XBox too. I have been known to use copied games on mine (it actually is very rare, and only what i've got off friends etc, which you prolly would all defend if its music), but mostly its for XBMC (DVD, Gr8 Living Room MP3 player, AVI Player, Mame-Ox (which is by far the best Mame version there is).
Also there is XLink Messenger which means you don't have to pay for XBox Live! at some ridiculous $$$ per month.
So for the PS2 yeh very few legal reason for modding, but the XBox is an absolutely amazing developer friendly, looks good under TV platform.
PS. I also have another one in the loft as my DNS and Mail server!
well i don't like it.
zoning makes it inconvenient to live in a city and adds to their decay. neighborhood storefronts and corner stores, as well as places to live in traditional office districts, are necessary to make a city lively and attractive. Eliminating zoning altogether and relying on covenants and other private solutions, as does Houston, means land would be better allocated to its highest valued use and both the city and builder would be better off. in addition, open, competitive sale of land is preferable to widespread corruption and bribery which zoning naturally invites.
but when i own a car but i have to wear a seat belt, install air bags, etc.
those are examples of crappy laws in the same spirit as this crappy ruling. they all erode the foundation of civilization: private property.
burning things in the backyard arguably affects your neighbors. and a nuclear warhead affects your neighborhood (radiation). so i won't count those as crappy i guess.
anyway the point is, just because there are other crappy laws out there, doesn't justify a new crappy law.
Of course this ruling will not stop people from buying modchips, you can always import one!
Anyway, i know these chips can be used for legitimate users (homebrew games, testing software, OSs, blah blah), but of course, lots of people use it for playing pirate/import games.
Here in Mexico, there's no official support for Nintendo on their consoles (but it's not that popular), or X-Box which is really new here, but PS2 is the console that every game fan have, and i can tell you, every person have a chip for playing pirated copies, they doesn't care about legitimate use, and i believe there's the problem.
I mean, you can buy a PS2 and go to a flee market, and there's all the PSX / PS2 pirated copies and you can choose the chip you want, and believe, that's illegal, maybe chips are in the gray are, but pirated games? so i believe that's the problem, if you are going to sell pirtaed copies, you need the chip, and this problem exists, Sony announced the official support for the console a months ago but there are no enforcement, even in the raids with the AFI (our equivalent to FBI) they take music CDs and stuff, but they don't touch pirated games, this is a big problem, because thanks to that the price for a PS2 game it's from 60 to 120 us dollars. Of course, Microsoft enforce their copyright laws and handle this with more care (there's no pirtaed copies of XBOX or Chips, you need to 'know someone') anyway, i really believe that there no way out on telling that modchips are "good", we can't fight it because they have an illegal use (>90%)...
the phrase is ambiguous, since the ',' before 'and use' is optional... so, using braces to group and remove ambiguity, is it saying
possession for commercial (purposes and use)
or
(possession for commercial purposes) and use
it makes a big difference. i.e. does it outlaw non-commercial use? if not, it may have been better written
the sale, advertisement, possession for commercial purposes, and use
I can mod my car to my heart's content as long as I don't do something blatantly illegal. I can't modify, move, or remove the catalytic convertor -- for example. I can't remove all of the windows and be considered street legal. I can't remove the muffler and have a car so loud it rattles the teeth out of your head. In short, there are a *LOT* of things I *CAN'T* do to my car.
I can mod my house up to the point where I am still in compliance with local building codes and safety regulations. I can paint the outside, I can remove a non-load bearing wall. I can replace the windows I can remodel the basement to add a new bedroom and a bathroom. I can't take the roof off. I can't dump raw sewage in my backyard, I can't run a commercial bar in my garage, etc...
There are legal limits to what you can (or can't) do to LOTS of things.
In the sense that the act of modding is now also illegal, in addition to the piracy, your liability/culpability under the law is greater now than it was before. Just think: if they can't get you on piracy charges for lack of evidence, now they can get you on modding!
Not once did I mention licensing mod chips. Where in god's name are you getting this from? Why would I license a mod chip that defeats the purpose of licensing in the first place?
You certainly can take a PS2, add a mod chip and sell it as the "PS2 Super 900" or whatever. I won't argue that. Sony will. And from the looks of it, if you are in the UK, Sony will win.
Oh, and the laws.. there are multiple laws for everything. Look at murder in the US. There are hundreds of different murder classifications just so they can prosecute someone to the fullest extent. Lawyers don't care about having to argue more and more in a case. Its what they are paid to do.
P.S. if you were licensed to sell the BOSE speakers you would make more money.
Buy a different product. Duh. What makes a PS so good that one must have it?
open (SIG, "</dev/zero"); $sig = <SIG>; close SIG;
No, but try making a claim on the warranty... or getting insurance... one of the questions you have to answer for car insurance is is the car modified from standard??? tell the truth here and your premium will be set very high. Lie and after the accident, the insyurance assesor will discover this fact and ... oopsie... you won't have any insurance cover because you have made a false statement.
Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
I think that explained why he needs is
While I can appreciate the frustration you must feel, you have to realize that there's no chance someone can mow down a crowd of people with a modded PS2 box. At least, not yet.
Shop as usual. And avoid panic buying.
I wasn't going for the fraud aspect. I was working on the trademark/licensing angle. I even stated so within the analagy.
Then again, if you've ever, you know, read that wacky crazy Bill of Rights that we have, you'd find that it's illegal for the government to prevent you from defending yourself from it. The 1934 machine gun ban is illegal the 1986 machine gun ban is illegal, the 1989 import ban is illegal and the 1994 assault weapons ban is illegal. Thankfully, that one is to expire this September and return to us some of our rights. Those of us who give a piss about our freedoms and rights are making baby steps toward returning our rights to us, despite the fact when the 1934 ban was enacted, war should have been declared on the Federal Government. Then again, war should have been declared upon the Federal Government when Prohibition was enacted, But I digress.
In short: Fuck you, AC. There are some of us out here that care about our rights, and care about your rights. And we'll defend you and your asinine, pudding-headed view of a socialist utopia, despite how wrong it is.
ALL HAIL THE BEAST THAT ASCENDETH FROM THE PIT WITH HIS CUTE WIDDLE NOSE =^o.o^=
Isn't that what they do in the states ?
A million monkeys and this is the best sig they could come up with...
A sig like this is a little unsettling when guns have become your hobby.
I'm just trying to build a blank-only Sten for use with my WWII Re-enacting group.
Re-enactors should need only a convincing flash-bang special effect. Cheaper and safer, IMHO, for what is, after all, only a game or a theatrical performance.
he already explained why he is building it you should go re-read a few times to compensate for your reading comprehension skill you fucking fuck wit and try to use punctuation and complete sentences instead of runons because your post reads like it was written by someone with an IQ of 60 and thats really annoying ok thanks bye
Since some people drive drunk we shouldn't have beer... or cars. That's your line of reasoning and it's just not sane.
This means all homebrew and hobbyist coders in the UK can no longer modify their consoles to run games they have written.
Oh no! I hope that both of them have other hobbies to fall back on.
My sister is the only person I know who uses mod chips, and that's to play imported Japanese games. That's my source... what's yours?
Region coding isn't about piracy (you can pirate a DVD from any region or no region)
It's about market control. It's also apparently illegal in New Zealand.
If my call is important, why am I talking to a recording?
--how many cars are advertised as obviously being capable of being driven faster than the top legal speed limit any place in the US, and capable of driving to endanger, like 4 wheel drifts around corners? Nearly all the sedans that I see commercials for, that's which ones.
Hardly ANYONE doesn't speed. EVERYONE knows this. Government knows this, the car companies know this. They would have an *incredibly* difficult time selling any car that had a speed governor on it that limited it to 70mph top speed, and they areperfectly able to build such a car right this second and try to sell it. And the reason is, they know people want to speed on occassion, which is breaking the law. They know it, consumers know it, cops know it, judges know it, everyone knows it. It's sold to satisfy that urge and perceived need.
Who wants to bother modding a PS2 anyway, it's like 29 wires on tiny solder points!
Pick up a xbox, 007, memory card and download the correct software and you can have your xbox modded to be a linux box, amazing media player, emulate any previous console, or pretty much mod it to be anything you want it to be in an instant!
------------------------------ SirPhreak - "It's Thinking..."
The only rev limiter in my Focus is its lack of horsepower.
Before the White House came out with it's controversial white paper on why America should be allowed to blow anyone up who might be a threat - we had the panderings of certain corporations lamenting that they had to follow the same kinds of rules that everyone else in the world had to follow. But then they had this wonderful idea: Why not try to use spin doctors, kick-backs, soft money, lobbiest, and any other underhanded method they could think of to convince lawmakers that what is sold to the consumer isn't really sold to the consumer. Since it isn't sold it must be leased. Since it's leased the companies still have the right to say what you can do with the item.
Therefore, so long as everyone agrees that you don't really own what you bought - you can't do what you want with it.
The underlying problem, therefore, isn't the mod manufacturers but the fact that companies have hit on a novel way to present their claims. So first, you have to break their claim of leasing before you can fix any of the other problems.
Here is the key: When you lease something it is for a limited time basis (not forever) and you have to continue to pay for the item in some way, shape, or forma such as a daily, weekly, monthly, or yearly manner. Otherwise - you bought it and have a right to do whatever it is you want to do with the item (within normal limitations) no matter what anyone else says.
Remember: Just because there are words on a piece of paper - it doesn't make those words the law unless you agree they are valid and just laws. It also does NOT mean that you can just go out and kill someone because you don't think the laws against murder are just laws. But it does mean you can fight to get them revoked if you want to do so.
Someone put a black hole in my pocket and now I'm broke.
I know you're all with me on this one.
-Lucas
The article say:
The UK enacted the EUCD in October 2003. The Directive has similarly been enacted in a number of other EU member states, allowing Sony to pursue mod chip sellers. Recently, it won just such a case in Belgium.
But that sound odd since EUCD has not been translated into Belgian law... yet. Even if it had been translated, Belgian Slashdoter should know more about that case Sony won.
Anybody with more clues?
David GLAUDE
Don't let the computer/expert control the election. Information for Belgium in french: http://www.poureva.be/
"Most of the limits in California apply to things like lowering cars below a certain level, exceeding noise or pollution limits, or blatant safety violations. So far as I know, there are few, if any, that require any kind of review before they can be used on the road."
WRONG. Their rules apply to anything which has the REMOTE possibility of affecting those things. Basically, those rules take a guilty-until-proven-innocent approach.
Look at the ads in any popular car-modder mag, such as "Turbo" or "Sport Compact Car". Read the fine print, and see how many products are described as "CARB certified". "CARB" = "California Air Resources Board", and it DOESN'T necessarily cover only things which affect pollution.
Read the REALLY fine print, and you'll see ads which say, "Not legal for use on public roads in California."
"But you have to be caught by law enforcement . . . to be cited for it."
WRONG AGAIN. Just wait until you try to (re-)register OR sell your car. And (IANAL) I wouldn't want to be the modder defendant in any accident-related legal action.
And if the mod IS something which is easily visible to a LEO, remember everything else which the officer is allowed to do, once you've provided the slightest excuse to stop you. And they WILL stop you: in particular, CHP and LAPD, unlike a lot of other places, are VERY aggressive about equipment transgressions and will eagerly use any opportunity to "toss" you, in the hope of stumbling onto something bigger.
Even something as simple as a K&N air filter is affected. Because California is such a large market, the economics of producing multiple versions dominates the availability of products in the rest of the country, just as many US laws unofficially dominate the rest of the world.
btw, OT, this is the big problem with the European Union that most people failed to foresee. The EU was originally seen as a way to eliminate harmful trade frictions. But it's becoming a Big Brother on many other things, to all EU residents, such as the recent decision to give the US their air-passenger data for *everyone*, not just non-US'ers whose destination is the US.
the reason why they are illegal is because game companies want you to buy 400 copies of their game, ask valve its a good business model
I had this machine that would produce cocaine for me, not that I ever produced the stuff. I just had it in the corner as part of my decor. It made a great coffee table and really matched my drapes.
Can you believe they confiscated it?! The nerve! People should only outlaw the cocaine makers, not the machines that just so happen to make nice room decorations.
Corporations: your universal scapegoat for all society's ills.
Given the state of the UK planning laws its quite possible that you won't be able to modify the house you own in the way you want, (to the extreme that there have been stories on the news in the East Midlands over the last few days about people being told by the council that they are going to have to take down or relocate their satellite dishes because they no not have planning permission for them due to which wall of the house they are on ...).
*cough*Nanny state*cough*
t
You make an excellent point. It is the predominant purpose that seems to affect the illegality of particular things. For example, weapons grade uranium is an illegal thing to possess, because it has few legitimate uses, iirc. The uses it does have are highly regulated and require substantial bureaucracy and traceability.
It is the same thing for a huge list of major chemicals. All industrial chemicals of potential misuse (including production of illicit drugs, a debatably harmful use, perhaps) are monitored by the FBI. If the FBI suspects illegitimate use of a thing, they often investigate.
I do not know the illegality of possession with intent to create something like a bomb or illicit drugs in the USA. It probably goes towards suspicion enough to warrant proper investigations. Nevertheless, there are some reverse onus crimes of possession of things, like uranium and illicit drugs themselves.
Guns.
So what do you suggest? He wolfs down some beans, straps a strobe light to his ass and farts away? That would be really convincing.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
"Of course I didn't license them to sell their mod chips. Their mod chips infringe on the licenses that I already sold to others. Thats why I am sueing them!!! I can't make money if they circumnavigate my licensed sellers."
The modchip itself DOES NOT infringe the licenses that you have sold to others. It will just sit there sucking up power doing absolutely nothing.
Much like a crowbar will sit there until a person uses it to either pry some heavy object or break into someones home.
The action of the user can be illegal, but the tool should not be.
BTW, there is a big difference between renaming a product vs. selling a product WITH something. Under your idiotic view Sony wouldn't want you to sell a PS2 WITH 10 games. It's a freaking addon.
If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. - James Madison
Yes, Ford would try to sue you for modifying your car. I'm surprised they haven't already, the DMCA is certainly vague enough for most reverse-engineering of performance chips to be illegal!
--D
I love mental midgets. You guys are so fun to read. Look, douchebag, if you're so anti-goverment then get the fuck off you lazy fat fucking ass and do something about it. Bitching like a fucking whiny pussy on a goddamned forum isn't going to do a motherfucking thing. Either get off your ass and actually put some EFFORT into making change or SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU GODDAMNED RETARD.
'Standards' in computing only impress those who are impressed by things like 'standards'.
Race suspension: Not illegal except in places where there is a height limit on lowering your car. (And if you go lower than that, you probably don't want to be on public roads anyways for fear of ripping your bumper off). Theres nothing wrong with having a super stiff "race" suspension though.
Blower (aka: Supercharger): Not illegal. Some vehicles come factory equipped with them.
Nitrous: Not illegal (in a roundabout way). Technically its illegal to use on road, but its hard to get caught using it. Having the bottle open and the system pressurized is also dangerous because it can show 'intent to use'. But if the bottle is closed, you can carry around small amounts of nitrous in your car for personal use. In that aspect, its no different than hauling a bottle of bleach or a propane tank for your BBQ.
the italian ruling upon modchiops sounds too good to be true
The chips "avoid monopolistic positions and improve the possibilities for use of the PlayStation," according to the ruling, which described Sony's attempts to limit the uses of the PS2 as "absurd," pointing out that the console cannot play titles from other geographic regions or home-made software products.
The decision was focused on an interpretation of Italian law relating to a company's right to limit the use of its products once they have been sold, with the final conclusion being that "the product's owner can use it as they see fit".
"It's a little like Fiat marketing its cars while banning them from being driven by non-European citizens or outside towns," the court commented.
i really wanna send a sincere "YOUR HONOR" to this judge !
the reg article
"There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
Any rational person would have understood that my definition of 'anything' wouldn't include harm to other people or property.. Thats just silly.
However a *normal* definition of anything ( including setting it on fire in my back yard should I choose to do so, or running over it in my car in MY driveway.. ) should be within the realm of what I can do legally to something I own.
I did not say that everything currently is legal, I stated I personally feel that it should be. ( and actually, I treat it as such.. its mine... period.. )
And I'm not alone, next time some company comes by and tells you what you can and cant do with the device you bought, you will agree too.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
pleassee, If the creator says they dont want you to reverse enginer THEIR CREATIVE WORKS, then you cant, exccept the terms or dont buy the devices. The real world(outside college) works on the exchange of and goods.
So you are telling me the court ruled the modchip perse illegal or is it the practice of modding illegal. From what I understood what makes the modding illegal is the use of tools from the developers (like in the xbox, the xdk or the xna), to create applications for the consoles. Like any application created with its sdk then its illegal cuz the sdk was not purchased properly. Then again this shouldn't stop people to do whatever they want. Old Skool Piracy still happens, its illegal sure, but people do it quietly at home... its wrong but people do it so I guess you guys can still ccontinue to do it and it should be alright just as long as no one knows... ;)
Heh heh, it's a line from an Australian Rolling Thunder clone called Rough Ranger. I can't explain how much I loves me some Rough Ranger, it's just so sweaty and greasy and entirey Australian, mate.
Re-enactors should need only a convincing flash-bang special effect. Cheaper and safer, IMHO, for what is, after all, only a game or a theatrical performance.
And the best way to do this is with a blank-firing weapon. I already use a SMLE No. 1 .303 and a 1911 that I've adapted to fire blanks. Some vehicle-mounted machine guns are gas-operated, one of my friends who plays as a Ranger has an .50 M2 which has been converted to operate via oxy-acetyline and a spark plug. It only sort of works.
I've been tinkering and plinkering with using the piston and cylinder from a Briggs and Stratton small motor to make the flash-and-bang effects, simply pour gasoline through the venturi into the intake, use an electric motor to turn the crank, which pushes the piston to compress the gasoline-air mixture. Once the proper compression is attained, the spark plug fires and the flash-and-bang leaves through the exhaust valve, putting quite a bright orange flash and a decent bang sound out the tube. Unfortunately, the whole rigamarole is too big and too complicated to use in small-arms, but it works okay in a pintle-mounted M2 or M1919 or MG42. It's more expensive than the oxy-acetyline setup that my Ranger friend has, but the effect is much more convincing.
We've experimented with all sorts of non-gunpowder solutions. I've tinkered with putting a baffles and a strobe in a semi-auto paintball gun, the baffles causes the compressed CO2 to create a sonic effect not much unlike that of a burst of automatic weapons fire, the LED strobe effect lights the condensing CO2 vapors. The unfortunate thing with this though, is that the 'range' is limited, you can't hear the CO2 'popping' at more than 100 yards and you can't see the flash if you're firing in broad daylight. It's not too bad of an idea which could use further refinement.
Which of course leads us back to blank-firing full-autos. Three of our Germans have their own MP40s and an MG42, each are adapted to fire blanks, two of our GIs have Thompsons and one has a BAR and our Brits have a few Stens and a few BREN guns. As a British re-enactor, I want my own Sten gun.
There's just something maddeningly-fun about running through the Urban Setting, ducking behind rubble and shooting it out with a few Wermacht with your machine guns. Until we can figure out a way to create the sound and flash of a gunpowder-based machine gun, we'll have to keep using the blank-firing guns. If a better solution presented itself, I'd be completely glad to pick up on it.
ALL HAIL THE BEAST THAT ASCENDETH FROM THE PIT WITH HIS CUTE WIDDLE NOSE =^o.o^=
Software companies are licensed to distribute games in a particular region.
This is not true of homebrew games. Homebrews are often licensed by their authors for worldwide distribution.
One of the main differentiations between a game console and a home computer is that a game console has a restriction on the software installed on it.
Games consoles imported into the UK from outside the euro zone attract a large import duty. I hope that Customs and Excise will now be retrospectively collecting import duty for every PS2 sold in the UK and interest on the late payment of that duty going back over time.
rd
Bitching like a fucking whiny pussy on a goddamned forum isn't going to do a motherfucking thing.
No shit, cockhole. I'm not 'bitching like a fucking whiny pussy' but am actually doing things to exact change here on the local level. Democracy starts locally then projects Federally.
SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU GODDAMNED RETARD.
Hey! Right back at ya, pal o'mine!
ALL HAIL THE BEAST THAT ASCENDETH FROM THE PIT WITH HIS CUTE WIDDLE NOSE =^o.o^=
What kind of country is it where you can enter a contract without a signature?
United States of America. I enter a contract with a seller by giving my debit card info and clicking Submit. There are only three components to a contract: offer, acceptance, and exchange of consideration. Which do you find missing?
What license are you talking about? Do you think the modchip makers used your software? Hell no. No signature = no agreement = no license.
Sony offers the following terms: "If you walk into a store selling PS2s and agree not to mod any PS2 you buy, then we will give you a PS2 when you give us $150." You accept, you indicate your acceptance by handing over $150, and the exchange of money for a PS2 seals the deal.
I didn't license you to reply.
Even if such a license were required, you granted an implied license when you posted your comment after having created an account after having read Slashdot's TOS.
And when someone brings me a satellite receiver that's locked out because it was given to them (NO SIGNATURE) by a religious community to only watch their station, and I unlock it, you think I'm infringing a license?
That's different, as a gift does not create a contract because it involves no exchange of consideration.
I say, "fuck that", I walk down to the BOSE store, buy up some speaker systems, and I put them in my store for sale.
And you're suggesting I'm breaking the law?
Only the patent holder may authorize others to make, use, offer for sale, or sell a product embodying a patented invention. Do you claim that the Bose loudspeakers you plan to resell aren't patented?
- Company A is licensed to sell the game "Super Mega 1" in the UK.
- Company B is licensed to sell the game "Super Mega 1" in the US.
- Company C gives away illegal copies of the game to everyone.
Company A has an agreement with the developer of "Super Mega 1" to sell the game and take a 10% distribution fee. Company B's agreement entitles them to a 5% distribution fee. Since they are in different sized markets, it doesn't really matter. Company A should make just as much money because they are allowed a large cut of the profit. When you live in the UK and you purchase the game from Company B, it shouldn't work. Why? Because Sony wants to uphold the licensing model. Thats why they regionalize the PS2. By modding the PS2 you take away that regionalization, thereby allowing someone in the UK to purchase the game from Company B. There goes the profit that Company A was supposed to get.I won't even get into Company C, because their shit is just fucked from the get go.
The modchip itself DOES NOT infringe the licenses that you have sold to others. It will just sit there sucking up power doing absolutely nothing.....
The mod chip allows the user to break the licensing model. REGARDLESS of it sucking up power.
While adding the comma eliminates ambiguity (I would always use one at that point), putting a comma before the "and" is optional in a list like this, and most news organizations (most people, actually) tend not to use it...
Is it out of laziness? I don't know. Maybe for a whole newspaper they can save two cents for an entire run by eliminating "uneccessary" commas.
However, your interpretation is wrong (IMO). It would be like saying "possession for commercial purposes and possession for commercial use." "Commercial use" and "commercial purposes" are redundant.
I can only see one way to read it - the way you suggest with the comma. You might, at first, think then that "use" is redundant (all those other things are "use," right?), but it's not - if you are not a commercial entity, then you can possess it, you just can't use it. In fact, if you are a commercial entity, you can possess it, you just can't do anything with it - including enclosing it in a glass case for people to see an artifact of the ancient times when people actually had some freedoms, because using it to entertain or draw in customers would be a commercial use. That's how silly this stupid ruling is.
Stupid sexy Flanders.
Look at the decision. What do we have?
Paragraphs 15 & 17: Loading of the code into RAM is an infringing copying. "Thus RAM containing a copy of Sony's copyright work is a reproduction in material form".
Paragraph 18: "reproduction of the unlicensed or parallel-imported copy of the game, or the copyright artistic works within it, onto the screen of the television to which the PS2 console is connected also creates an infringing copy".
Paragraph 30: "One of the advantages of CDs and DVDs is that they are robust and cannot be wiped clean. There is no necessity [...] to make back ups.".
and "Since there is no necessity to make a back up, there is no justification for having one. Playing such a disc is unauthorised and the resultant creation of transitory copies of the program (or other data) in RAM is unauthorised."
Company A is licensed to sell the game "Super Mega 1" in the UK.
Company B is licensed to sell the game "Super Mega 1" in the US.
So who's licensed to sell "Homebrew Spinning Block Game"?
Yes, but I am not talking about homebrew games. You can't say that all mod chips were created just so people could play homebrewed games. You can't appeal to just that one cause. Mod chips are bought for several reasons. Some of them good, some of them bad. You can't rule out the bad just because there is some good.
If the mod chips only let you play homebrew games it would be different. It wouldn't be breaking any laws because it wouldn't be affecting a corporations botton line.
Use of a PS2 mod-chip to play homebrewed games is as violative of Sony's rights as using the mod-chip to pay illegally duplicated games. Consoles are not sold for much of a profit (or any profit as all - just look at the XBox). Sony makes its money on licensing fees paid by publishers of games playable on the PS2. Create a homebrew game and play it on your modded PS2, and you are depriving Sony of its licensing fee.
144l. ph34r my 133t l3g4l 5k1lz!
I am not talking about homebrew games. I am talking about licensed games.
It is sad that you are correct when you try to use sarcasm.
If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. - James Madison
The Game Boy Advance is also an amazing developer friendly platform, and I myself hack on it. I'm afraid Nintendo will go in, armed with this precedent and foreign counterparts, and shut down all companies that sell GBA software development equipment to the general public.
Don't buy Sony in the UK. Start a new campaign: Friends don't let friends buy Sony. Make it the loudest, most annoying campaign ever, and they'll recant.
Or perhaps they won't. But whatever the case, they can't force you to buy Sony products.
And a PS2 is not a necessity, it's a luxury.
To celebrate the occasion of my 1000th post, I will post no more forever on Slashdot. Goodbye.
X-box's are sold at a loss so lets all go buy a couple, mod em (screw you Bill) and hurt their bottom line. Hell I wont even buy any games, just turn them into cheap terminals!!!
Si vis pacem, para bellum! For evil to succeed good men need only do nothing!
In the United States: 17 USC 1201, the DMCA that we know and hate. The United Kingdom was ahead of the curve in some ways; check out section 296 of its copyright act from 1988, ten years before the United States got a DMCA.
While I don't know a lot of people using modchips in order to play customized or homebrew games, there are quite a few that use them for copied games of owned originals.
I myself just finished dumping a bunch of my old PS1 games to ISO images. The images will go on a single DVD, and I can use them on my emulators etc without the original. I still own the original so I haven't deprived anyone of a sale (and no bitching about legality of emulators, I have a PS2 it's just not as portable as a laptop).
Unfortunately, I'm too late for two of the disks as a few bad sectors bork the extraction on them - however I'm getting a copy of those off emule.
Gee, look at that. I'm downloading copyrighted material, ripping copyrighted material, using an emulator... I could even use a modchip for that - and ya know what NO "PIRACY" HAS OCCURED because I bought and paid for the original media.
If half the people with modchips do any of the above, I'd say there are a lot of legitimate cases of use. So unless you've got proof that everyone using these is definately pirating, I'd suggest that your eyes might be clearer if your head wasn't up your rear end.
So therefore it should be illegal!
Well by your simple-minded logic anyway...
Blar.
You'll notice that the signature in the parent refers to "slashdot, promoting situational ethics...", a usage which strongly implies that the poster is a moral absolutist - and moral absolutists often disparage empathy (and the like) as being a Very Bad Thing.
>Not once did I mention licensing mod chips. Where in god's name are you getting this from?
I'm sorry. I was under the impression you were arguing that modchips break your license. As you admit you have no license with ModChip makers, I see now the error.
>You certainly can take a PS2, add a mod chip and sell it as the "PS2 Super 900" or whatever. I won't argue that. Sony will. And from the looks of it, if you are in the UK, Sony will win.
I'm in Canada. Lucky for me, Canadian law actually has a section of copyright law defined legitimizing the making and use of backups. Which, in turn, legitimizes devices that allow you to use backups.
>There are hundreds of different murder classifications just so they can prosecute someone to the fullest extent. Lawyers don't care about having to argue more and more in a case. Its what they are paid to do.
I always thought all those laws were there because murder is such a serious crime, the murderer should be given the benefit of the doubt, and that the crime of murder really does need to be exactly defined. But hey, whatever, it's not important that we agree on this point.
>P.S. if you were licensed to sell the BOSE speakers you would make more money.
Perhaps. Whether or not I'd make more money being licensed or not isn't the issue. The issue is whether I'm breaking the law or not re-selling BOSE speakers without a license from BOSE to do so. I say no.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
You can still commercialize car parts, look at how much aftermarket parts cost.
>The mod chip allows the user to break the licensing model. REGARDLESS of it sucking up power.
A CD Recorder lets them do that too.
Do you honestly believe you could sue someone for putting your game in a CD Recorder? I'm not even saying they're going to access it. They're just placing the game in it.
If not, why do you think someone playing a purchased original copy of your game in their console is breaking your license? Where's the difference? Is it because they're going to play the game? You have your license written like that? (If so, seek legal advice, quick!)
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
The article makes it quite clear that using a modchip is illegal, but what about the various other methods for executing homebrew code and the like?
Over the last year or so, Swap Magic boot disc and Slide Tool combinations have been selling like hot cakes. Without fitting a modchip or altering the internals of the machine in any way, you can simply insert the disc, use a small piece of plastic to manually eject the tray, and then insert a CD-R or DVD-R containing whatever the hell you want.
I would estimate that there are currently more people using these than fitted modchips, at least in the UK. HDLoader, a piece of software that allows you to copy store-bought games to a fitted hard drive, was released only a month ago. Definately not a modchip, but is it illegal or not?
Recent non-modchip solutions seem to target "backup" users specifically. Speak to anyone serious about importing and they'll explain that a fitted modchip is the only sensible option, because they will allow booting of dual-layered DVDs and the increasing number of problem games that need to be ripped, patched and burnt to run on anything that isn't a fitted chip.
I realise that this will obviously affect those who use the devices for bad a lot more than those who use it for good (imports/development), but I reckon I wouldn't be far wrong to assume that an ageing relic of a judge knows nothing of the various perfectly legal applications for such devices.
My, my, pedantic, aren't we?
Yes, what you say is accurate, taken individually... But I was painting a partial picture of a highly modified offroad-only vehicle, using the exotic term 'etc.' to indicate that perhaps there is more to this little package than I had listed.
In any case, I've seen oversized brakes (while shopping on the web for my own car) that purport to be non-street-legal, and for the racetrack only. There was no mention of this being due only to pad compounds requiring high temperatures for efficient function, either. Virtually anything which has not been approved by the DOT seems to be illegal in the US for use on the streets.
It was a joke! When you give me that look it was a joke.
...if they sold their cars for $500 and charged $1000 to remove rev limiters, and their money was all made in after market parts and accessories.
This is the problem, you see. Sony/MS/Nintendo don't make money off the consoles (minimal at best and a big loss at worst), they make their money OFF THE GAMES.
Mod-chipping to use your machine as a PC doesn't irritate Sony because they don't worry about cutting into their other businesses much at all (people who use Vaio's are not going to settle for using a PS2 as a PC.) The same goes for Nintendo, they wouldn't care if you used their box as a PC, but Microsoft would because THAT WOULD CUT INTO THEIR CORE BUSINESS and make Intel much less likely to want to sell chips to use in the XBox...
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While you were out, Jack Valenti called from 1982. He said he wants his argument back.
He's also wants to hire you as his star witness against the VCR.
Go get 'em, Tiger!
BytesTemplar.com
I AM A MILITA MEMBER OF ONE AND YOU CAN HEAR ME WHINE @ GOMILITIA.COM.
If a country is going to even have any sort of attempt at pretending it's a free country, its citizens have to be allowed to break the law.
Having freedom means that you can do whatever you want, with the one restriction that you're not allowed to muck up anybody else's freedom. If you do that, you get some or all of your freedom taken away.
Now, let's look at the case of the modchips - people who steal games and then use modchips to play them on their PS2 are clearly mucking about with the freedoms of the game designers and publishers. But purchasing or selling the modchips themselves doesn't hurt anyone, and since they have very legitamite uses, then the purchaser is not guaranteed to commit a crime. There is a potential for a crime, but prosecuting something like that belongs to the division of Precrime.
Let's look at another example: gun control. Let's say that someone invents a gun that can read the mind of the user, and refuse to fire if malicious intent towards another human being is recognized. Then of course, it's illegal to deactivate this device.
Now, are there legitamite uses for deactivating the device? Of course - self-defense, and if you live in the US, the 2nd amendment.
Every time you remove the freedom to do something that could potentially be used to commit a crime, but could also be used to do something legal, you take away from the freedom of your citizens. And here's the rub: for almost everything, there is a legitamite use. Lockpicks can be used if you lock yourself out, modchips can be used by hobbyists.
And even though some things might seem like a no-brainer, we have to be careful, because the more steps of indirection we take, the more likely it is we're not allowing someone to do something they should be allowed to do.
Did you ever notice that *nix doesn't even cover Linux?
From the article:
That said, there have been setbacks. Earlier this year, the Italian court ruled that mod chips are legal on the basis that it's up to the user, not Sony, how they use their PS2. It even went so far as to name mod chips as crucial tools to "avoid monopolistic positions".
The European Commission has been against "monopolistic positions" - like Microsoft.
http://www.technewsworld.com/story/31278.html
EU rulings have overturned UK law before.
Perhaps they will knock Sony down - for preventing owners from using imported games, not allowing them to run backup of corrupt disc and stopping them playing games they have written.
Not once did a ModChip maker accept the license of a software company.
Even without the DMCA, the modchip maker is subject not to a contract but rather to Sony's patents.
Your stupid "submit" laws are dumb (thank God I live in Canada)
Offer + acceptance + exchange of consideration = contract in any country whose contract system is based on British common law. A signature is merely one way of indicating acceptance.
Now, for exchange of consideration. Sounds great. So, since the contract is offered AFTER the game is sold
Microsoft and Sony might argue that the contract specifies a return period and that consideration isn't irrevocably exchanged until the return period expires.
No offer of a contract (not on the box)
First of all, look for the word "Patent" on the box. It is unlawful to use a device embodying a patented invention without permission of the patent holder. Thus, removing the sticker on the disc tray signifies your willing use of the patented invention, which in turn signifies your acceptance of whatever terms you read in the manual inside the box.
Even better, some of the newer products' packaging has language to the effect of "This sale is governed by terms and conditions, which you can read at http://example.com/product/EULA/"
No, I haven't been able to afford to actually buy a recent Sony or Microsoft console, so I might be talking out of my behind, but that's what Sony or Microsoft could do in the current scheme of patents and contracts under English-speaking nations' common law.
Not that Sony has *ANY* legal right to imply new contract terms after the purchase
Is the purchase really a purchase until the 7-day return period has expired?
And the "first sale" link you gave refers only to copyrights, not to patents.
This is (probably) legislation intended to curb piracy. But piracy is already illegal. This will do nothing to change it, since pirates will be able to get illegal mod chips. This law targets people who would use mod chips for non-illegal purposes.
Explain yourself.
I keep hearing that because 99% of the people who are using these chips are abusing their rights in this case (a number I GREATLY dispute, but I'll allow it), its acceptable to infringe on the right of the 1% that are legit. It serves teh greater good.
.001 perfect, its still a very bad precident.
So, lets look at in in a new light. I have a tendency to use extremisms to illistrate the same trend, so here's one for you. If 99% of the people in your city were abusing their right to live, is it alright to kill off the 1% that did nothing wrong?
If the majority is more valued than the minority where rights are concerned, we're reopening the door for gross racism.
The truth is, the 99% argument can be better stated like this: "It doesn't affect me, so you can all hang."
Or as Benjamin Franklin said, "Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to eat for dinner. Freedom is an armed lamn, contesting the vote."
Even if it only afected
Uranium is a radioactive material. Mere possesssion of radioactive materials has the potential to harm other people. For this reason, whether or not the possessor plans to do anything dangerous with it or simply store it in a box in a closet, there is always a potential to cause harm to otheres by the simple act of possession.
A piece of electronics, on the other hand, will harm no one if it is stored in a closet, regardless of whether the owner has modified it with a chip. A car that's been chipped to enhance its engine performance won't harm anyone just sitting in a driveway, or when being used on the roads -- it may be easier to speed if you chip your car, but the act of chipping your car doesn't mean you will speed. It may mean you want to rectify shortcomings that are inherent in its design (the manufacturer may have held its performance back because it didn't want to pay for better parts), and you legally own the car, so you are entitled to do as you wish with it -- especially since no one else is being harmed.
The potential to cause harm by possession of the item is the difference in these two examples.
i am a soviet space shuttle
If guns were used 99% of the time to murder people, they...oh...nevermind...
Mod chips are used 99% of the time to play imported games. Period.
Want to Know How to Cheat the GPL? Read On!
And you're an asshole who's been brainwashed by the media into believing that someone who will fight to retain his freedom is a 'gun obsessed nut.' If this were four hundred years ago, you'd call me a 'longbow obsessed nut' or if this was two thousand years ago, you'd call me a 'pilium obsessed nut.'
By 'militiaman' I mean 'able-bodied American citizen, aged 18 to 55.' I have a strong sense of civil responsibility and serving my community. I'm one of several to organize efforts to protect the community from fires and floods. What do you do? Cry on Slashdot that a man of my type is an 'anachronism?'
You want to play with automatic/assault weapons, go join the Army. U$A doesn't need milita's to protect us anymore that's what the Army is for.
Militias defend the citizenry from the Government. It was the Militias that defended the British Subjects from the British Army when the Crown decided that its Colonies should not be independent, autonomous entities. The same holds true now and will hold true into the future. Again, the media has warped your pereception of past events.
Besides, I have a strong belief that the U.S. shouldn't even have an Expeditionary Force, but a Well Regulated (that means 'Armed and Trained,' to those of you who've never picked up a dictionary in your lives) Militia for self-defense.
And if/when the US ever turns the military against it's own citizens I'll take my chances rather than fight beside you wackos who think you're going to topple the government and return the "freedoms" to the people.
It's never been a question of 'if' but a question of 'when.' And hey, as long as we can't Regulate, then we're pretty much impotent at the hands of the Federal forces which will come down upon us and enslave us. It really is only a matter of time. Likely not tomorrow, likely not within the next decade or century, but the liklihood of the Government enslaving us remains, unless we as the Armed, Educated Middle Class are there to prevent them from doing so. The Assault Weapons ban of 1994 and the Machine Gun Stamp Act of 1986 only serve to weaken us against the increasingly-pervasive Federal Government.
Nobody I know is trying to 'topple the government' If the interest were there, it would have been done a century ago. The interest is to remain Private Citizens of the United States and carry out our lives as peaceful, participating members of the Republic. It's all anybody really wants. Unless you're a socialist whiner who wants the The State to provide everything for you, rather than you to account for yourself and provide for yourself.
I hope the Assault Weapons Ban stands, and they pass the 50 Cal Ban too.
I doubt you can give one good, logical reason for the Government to deprive any Private Citizen the use of any object, whether that object can be used for Good or for Evil. The legitimate use of a firearm (defense against the government) by far outweighs the illegitimate use of a firearm (crime). But in this pro-socialist I-get-all-my-opinions-from-the-New-York-Times world in which you live, I'd assume you think that the two were one and the same.
Why am I responding to an Anonymous Fucking Coward anyway?
ALL HAIL THE BEAST THAT ASCENDETH FROM THE PIT WITH HIS CUTE WIDDLE NOSE =^o.o^=
Wrong. The USA does need a militia. An armed populace is the best defense against a totalitarian government. That's why the militia needs arms comparable to what the standing army has.
When and if the day comes that the US turns its army on the people, you will be one of the first ones to go, either at the hands of the army or, more likely, at the hands of the militia. We won't miss you at all.
Not that I agree with this law, but lawmakers probably see mod chips as analogous to mounting guns on your car.
I take it you've never been to the Roy Rogers Museum. One of the exhibits is his parade car, which has hundreds of guns mounted on it.
As handles for the shift lever, door handles, hood ornament, and just decorating everything in sight.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Thats a slippery slope. The CD Recorder only copies the game. Nothing wrong with that. The mod chip actually allows it to be played. Thats where the legal issue starts.
I don't believe you need a license to sell the speakers. If you were to sell the modify the speakers and resell them under the Bose name, then Bose would take up issue with you.
>Thats a slippery slope. The CD Recorder only copies the game. Nothing wrong with that. The mod chip actually allows it to be played. Thats where the legal issue starts.
Your license is OK with someone making copies of the game, but not ok with them using a modchip to play them?
So, if they used HD loader, which isn't a "ModChip" to play copies of your games, that's ok with your license? Perhaps you should be updating your license to cover devices that copy your game. But, then, there's that slippery slope you mentioned.
Overall, perhaps I don't understand. Please, if you can clear it up, I'd appreciate it.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
- No eating and drinking in the Library. This is grammatically incorrect unless you mean "and"; colloquial usage causes it to be interpreted as the intended "or".
- No eating or drinking in the library. This is not supposed to be "nor". Nor is a clause for a neither, this is an "either". Parse: either eating or drinking in the library is forbidden. (The "No" at the head is a shorthand for "is forbidden" at the end).
- Return your overdue books or you will get fined. This isn't XOR, but relies on the idea that the clause after OR will not be evaluated unless the first clause fails. In Perl: ($return_your_books) or (payfine($some_amount));
None of your examples apply to the ruling, since it is separate (list) syntax. The following are illegal: Sale, Advertisement, Possession for Commercial purposes, and Use of Mod Chips. The and is just syntactic sugar to indicate the close of the list.The only way to phrase it so that one would have to commit all infractions would be along these lines: "You are committing a crime if you are engaged in the Sale, Advertisement, Possession , and Use of Mod Chips". However, it was "The Sale, Advertisement, Possession, and Use of Mod Chips are illegal". The latter phrasing puts the evaluation in list context, where $illegal is tested against each element in the list, returning true if one or more match. Note the presence of "are", which is the plural verb indicating the list context.
I have no issue using programming mentality to parse logical statements in language, but it's important to learn how the logic syntax of the target langauge (English) differs from your base of comparison.
We may not imagine how our lives could be more frustrating and complex—but Congress can. – Cullen Hightower
>If you were to sell the modify the speakers and resell them under the Bose name, then Bose would take up issue with you.
Definately, that's misrepresentation (back to square one). However, if I explained what I did to the originally BOSE speakers, I'm ok. Let's say I took out the original drivers and put in new ones, I could say:
"Model XYZ BOSE speakers with replaced JoeSixpack drivers".
At worst, BOSE can complain I'm using their name in the Ad. I might have to say "Model XYZ speakers with replaced JoeSixpack drivers" so that I don't mention their pesky trademark.
Surprise, surprise, I don't say "Sony" on my ads for this exact reason. Or, if I do, it's a mistake, which I'll remove the minute I notice it.
This is the same way I'm ok selling a "PS2 including modchip". Because, that's what it is. It's a PS2 with a modchip. Like a Yugo with a ford sticker.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
You know, bongs are perfectly legal. Smoking pot in the US is not. Why don't they outlaw bongs, as they are mostly used for an illegal activity?
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
Right???
Sony never patented a modchip.
Doesn't matter. Sony still patented the rest of the console, and the claims for, say, the graphics synthesizer still apply to a modded PS2.
Oral contracts are so totally useless.
Did I say it was an oral contract? What's that written receipt that the store gave you?
Prosecutor, I don't have internet access.
DA: Did Best Buy issue this receipt?
You: Yes.
DA: Did you see the adverts for several high-speed Internet access companies on Best Buy's entry door?
You: Yes.
DA: Did you see the high-speed Internet access demonstration table?
You: Yes.
DA: So why didn't you view the terms there?
That's because there *IS NO* law at all making it even remotely illegal to use a patented product any way you like
I don't know about the UK, but the USA has 35 USC 271, reproduced below (my emphasis), and per patent cooperation treaties, other countries' patent laws should look similar:
Though I can't find the next step in the argument, Sony or Microsoft might because they undoubtedly have much more money than both of us put together.
I quote from User Manual of a PC game called "DeltaV" - the nearest ancient game I have to hand, maybe not the best game, but I liked it on the 486 i had at the time :) The copyright on page 1 of the manual dates this to 1994, not that long ago really.
published by U.S. Gold - once a prolific publisher of games for many computers in the UK, I don't know if they were big in the US.
on page 9, "Installing the game":
1. Make a backup copy of your original disks and store them in a safe place.
2. Make sure your computer meets the system requirements for this game...
(emphasis mine)
How quickly these game companies change their tune - I for one believe a modern day DVD-ROM to be equally fragile as the 3.5" floppies that Delta V was published on, if not more so - It is interesting to note the original floppies still work OK, but I have many 10 year old audio CDs from my teenage years that are not badly scratched, but still do not play correctly. I believe the first thing anyone should do when returning home with a new purchase of any digital data is to make a backup copy, It is the most sensible course of action, no matter what obstacles may be put in your path.
Why am I responding to an Anonymous Fucking Coward anyway?
because you're a hungry troll *good boy*
Same as they are with a variety of unneeded laws, like DUI. There isn't a single crime associated with DUI that wasn't covered previous to those laws themselves, they just added another one because it's incredibly lucrative. Drug laws are another. Those are even MORE incredibly lucrative, there's a huge multi billion dollar business in keeping drugs illegal and very expensive. Selling "permits" for what are supposed to be born with "rights".
Government is in itself a self perpetuating growth industry, and the only one "allowed" to have armed enforcers to "make it so".
Notice in voting we never have an option for "none of the above, un-needed, not wanted"
Sure. The CD Recorder only copies. HDLoader can also be used to copy games which you have legitimatly purchased. I have no problem defending the art of a good backup. If you happen to use the HDLoader to copy a game that you didn't purchased (pirated per say) then you are breaking the license model.
Your counter argument is comparable to "cars don't speed, people driving do". Well, the car allows you to speed, it doesn't stop you.. but if you want to, you can put the pedal to the floor, the car doesn't stop you from doing that. The law does.
That's why the militia needs arms comparable to what the standing army has.
Guess what?! You're never going to have something comparable to what the government has. And if you do, they'll arrest you for it.
Damn the MAN! Tryin' to keep us down.
Without the permission of Sony, you cannot modify the PS2 to break the built in DRM. The whole reason behind Sony using a very legal system to protect its licensing model is for profit. Without that profit they can't do R&D for new systems. When you create something like a mod chip that allows you to get around giving money to Sony you are in fact breaking the law.
I am not saying that I have never pirated a damn thing in my life. I am saying that you are a fool if you can't see why its illegal.
Same as the old boss.
Okay, this horse seems pretty thoroughly flogged, but here's a few fresh kicks: Anyone already owning a modded PS2 can't be prosecuted (one assumes: If not, this sets an ugly precedant, and anything can suddenly become illegal with past violations counting), and how are they going to prove that you didn't have the thing before the decision was made?
Now, on a slightly more down-to-earth note, the defendant had sold over 1500 Messiah 2 modchips. I'm guessing that this case has been in the courts for more than a year, so he probably sold them for their old asking price of close to £25.00 per, netting him a nice £37,500 just selling Messiah 2 chips. Odds are, he was probably also selling chips for other systems, and possibly other grey- and black-market devices, and it's doubtful that the sale of the chips was what attracted the attention of the authorities.
Happiness is relative, Based upon the way we live.
Seriously why are PS2 Modchips illegal? That is going to piss a lot of people off. Id imagine people migrating to other platforms where the modchip is not illegal. Is this really in Sony's best interests?
Me personally id rather support my favorite console manufacturer by buying the games. Thats why my PS2 is not modded. Homebrew game development is affected however, and although unlike other console manufacturers Sony sell a linux kit with all the trimmings for peanuts. It doesnt seem fair that one console platform should be protected from modchips while another is not, id be worried that it might be a disadvantage to owning a ps2 over something else.
Electronic Music Made Using Linux http://soundcloud.com/polyp
So, does it mean that there will be increased sales of Japanese video games in the UK? If yes, thats a good news for ME and if not, then I would have to search for another markek..
I really am, just was commenting on the obvious legal hypocrisy with automobiles. I will also ramble here and there some, as I have a brain that apparently works that way....
I wasn't commenting on the modchips per se, I was commenting on the fact that cars are *definelty* sold with the expectations that at least some times the laws will be broken with them. It is 100% undeniable true stuff facts data. and I will repeat, they COULD sell cars that absolutely could not exceed the speed limit, yet they don't, that is pure evidence to show they know that cars WILL be used illegally, at least some of the time. they could mandate a totally legal car, they could make a mandated legal car, yet they do not. there is a reason for it, and that reason is the expectation and casual acception of illegal use of the car, along with legal use.
And it's similar to the modchips if you really want to ask me directly on the subject, not all games played on modded consoles are illegal, just some of them some of the time. Just like some times people drive cars legally, and sometimes they don't. It's one of those deals where the laws are so lame that almost everyone ignores them. I see it similar to these games. I can see wrongness and rightness to it, from both points of view, so that pushes me into a neutrality stance.
And BTW, I don't game, own a console, download MP3s or movies,etc, never have. I'm not a hypocrite about it. I have paid for shareware in the past and actually deleted it if it had a time out period and I really didn'twant it. I'm just a freeking square boy sprout when it comes to such matters, but I also can see when a law is so stupid it will get broken because of it's stupid-ness. I just call em like I see 'em. Similar to what I see happened to the music and movie guys, I have watched them over the years cry crocodile tears over their hundreds of zillions in profits, and every generation of technology is going to "destroy" them they declare, and periodically they get busted for industry collusion and price fixing, but that's about it, so I don't mind seeing them boys get borrowed from with cheap-to-make-copies. They coulda long ago come out with the one or two collar cd and made more money then they make now, but they are so greedy they don't understand this. They don't understand people didn't want to buy an unlistened to pig in a poke, or just this weeks top 40 that they create and push. they don't get it, never got it, and won't ever get it, too greedy, greed lead to insanity, they are stuck rthere. No law says a rich person can't be insane, is there? that's what happens to people who get greedy, they have gone *insane* and they then go on to make other stupid decisions based around their insanity, Political leaders get afflicted with advanced megalomania. Industries get it when it comes to dominance and "making money".
So..when it became easy to do, either modding or copying or whatever, people just did it themselves. I think they broke their trust and ethical and moral high ground a LONG time ago. I don't take their stuff,or buy their stuff, but I feel the same way about them if the hells angels stole something from the devils disciples-ehh, so what, who cares?
I don't believe in IP patents, none whatsoever. If it isn't a tangible,and built,at least a good to scale working model, no patent. That's my idea of a real product worth patenting. One of the dumbest things ever foisted on the US consumer and business world, and ESPECIALLY allowing a so called "product" to be sold with no warranty, excuse me, "licensed to use" with no warranty, is the patenting of intangibles. Hideously lame. Wicked stupid. harmful in the short, medium and long terms for advancing the useful arts and sciences. It's a congame and a scam, and as such, I think it's a fair play to scam them back if they insist on it..but not for me. I just ignore them, boycott, same as I do with overpriced hollywood tripe, "games", and whatever they claim is music. I got better things to do.
Even if only 1% of the American citizenry started an armed uprising against their own government, the US G would already have 2.5 million armed combatants to deal with. They could overwhelm the military in just days. They (CIA, NSA, PENT...) already know this, As do the Chinese, Russians, Cuba....
Back to the mod chip outlaw....That's total BS!!! Mod chippers of the World, Unite!
Authority questions you. Return the favor.
Would Ford sue you for removing the rev limiter from your Focus?
Ford wouldn't sue you (they would invalidate your warranty). But in many countries homologation standards would prevent you from making such modifications and legally using your vehicle on the roads.
The point is different in TFA, I understand. Nothing is more annoying than being guilty of a crime before you even consider committing it; which is basically what the UK high court has decided.
It's like saying you can't modify your car or your house or your clothes! Would Ford sue you for removing the rev limiter from your Focus?"
Ford might not sue you but if you made illegal modifications to your car, you could be fined, disqualified for driving or have your car impounded.
If you make illegal modifications to your home that are contrary to council regulations, or other laws (example fire saftey laws) and someone reports you you're in trouble.
If you decided to go walk around in clothes that were crotchless you'd be arrested for indecent exposure. If you decided to wear clothing that was dangerous to other people (asbestos suit, or spiked armour anyone) you could similarly expect to be in hot water.
I think the media companies are profiteering, but its the laws that need to be made more reasonable. The idea that you own something so you can do anything you like with it is a fallacy. The moment other people are affected by your behaviour your "freedoms" become secondary.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
Parent is in no way, shape, or form a troll...
Your missing the fact that floppies can be corrupted with and kind of magnet or (I'm not sure on this one) too much static charge.
Most of the people posting here are unqualified simply because their American. Americans aren't adversely affected by these types of laws as THEIR playstation can play any game they want (most games are in NTSC format).
The people who this law does affect are adversely affected* are having our fair use rights infringed upon. I don't care that the majority of people use it for illegal purposes. Make the selling of copied games illegal, not the tool to use it. It's like banning blank videos. A lot of the use for them is to illegally copy videos.
A lot of people DO import copied games. We might be a minority, but I don't see why we should have our fair use trampled on when we have done nothing wrong. Punish those who commit the crimes.
* Fortunately I'm not a UKian, but if a similar law was brought out in Australia I would be as we use PAL.
I will note, however, that pirated games soon came out that bypassed this modchip code somehow. So what did I do?
I disconnected my Sony Playstation from my TV. I gave away my huge library of mint condition American region Playstation One games to some kid that I know (not a relative, either)... (I'll note, they ain't in mint condition anymore since she got her hands on them, c'est la vie.) I put my modded Playstation in a box with the imported games, accessories and the like, and I haven't opened that box in a long time.
I decided not to buy anymore Sony products. It's not a moral thing, by the way. It's a simple hatred of Sony, of their crassness and their lousy business practices that I've personally experienced. Sure, though, Microsoft and Nintendo are also tainted, they just don't inspire hatred in me the way Sony's disgusting semi-monopoly does. (Yeah, I know, Microsoft inspires many people to a more visceral reaction... well, I understand the objections to them, but they just don't inspire the same level of disgust with me, personally.)
Oh, well, England Prevails, I guess....
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
doesnt let you use copied ford parts
I live in Aus where they are also illegal, but I still want one!!! Can someone please tell me where I can get a ps2 m0dchip down under?
using a buggy game CD...
Oh well, what the hell...
I know that most people who actually USE their handguns use them illegally to shoot someone.
Tibbon
tibbon.com
The common argument I keep seeing in this thread is that this ruling is justified because the majority of uses for this item are illegal, and in general, if the majority of uses for any given device are illegal, then it's okay to make that device illegal.
Why? Why is that the case? Why because something is mostly used for illegal purposes is it therefore okay to make it illegal? What about those people who do use it for legitimate purposes? What is the arbitrary percentage of uses that are illegal before it's okay to make a device illegal? 90%? 99%? 99.9%?
I'm assuming that the reasoning goes, "When the overwhelming majority of uses for a device are illegal, then the overall harm to society by restricting the rights of the legitimate users is less than the overall harm to society of leaving the device legal." The problems with this are the aforementioned boundary problem (what percentage constitutes "overwhelming majority"), and the possibility that the above statement is not true for any percentage below 100% (since making it okay to outlaw certain devices sets a bad precedent for outlawing things that simply enough people don't like -- i.e. starting a slippery slope from 99.9999% down to 99%, 90%, and 50% + 1). The loss of freedom in order to "prevent" crimes (insofar as that ever actually happens, which is endlessly debatable) is not trivially justified.
"Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
People put modchips in their consoles so they can play stolen (ie, burned) games.
Speak for yourself, you dirty pirate.
Then again the PS2 ethic is far different from the Xbox ethic. With Xbox, a large number of modchips are bought so that people can run awesome apps like Xbox Media Center. I could probably believe that the majority of PS2 modchips are bought for piracy though, especially considering the demographic. :-/
Karma: It's all a bunch of tree-huggin' hippy crap!
I'm hoping that Gamecube disks are better than CDs/DVDs. And yes, I know, technically they're DVD's, but they're obviously manufactured differently. They're not just painted black like Sony's.
I thought it was because they didn't want the community at large to discover how crappy the platform was for developing games. (Note to self, must remember to talk less to PlayStation developers.) :-)
Karma: It's all a bunch of tree-huggin' hippy crap!
*cry* Sony is losing money. *cry* I'm so sad for the giant corporation.
Read my short stories - You won't regret it.
I'm not sure how PS2 modchips work, but with Xbox most modchips ship with a completely legal BIOS called Cromwell (or some others), which is based on Linux, not a hacked MS BIOS. Cromwell itself cannot be used to play "backups" or anything else, the only thing it can do is flash the modchip with a BIOS that the user provides (usually obtained from IRC or otherwise). Technically the modchip sold in this form shouldn't be illegal, since it cannot be used for illegal purposes without modification. Right?
-tom
Theft of intellectual property
Its copyright infringment, not theft.
Its its its its its its its! ITS! "It's" means "it is". I doubt you meant to say "ripping it apart for it is components"
Honey, I shrunk the Cygwin
"Mod chips have only one signficant purpose: Copyright infringement.
Mod chips do not permit you to make your own games, you need a devkit to do that."
There is an Open Source, Free, Legal Xbox Development Kit. And not only that but once you installed Linux on the Xbox you can program with regular development tools because you do not program for the "W2K modified for Xbox" that natively run on a Xbox anymore but for Linux.
Then there other legitimate uses to name a few:
Backup of the games that you purchase:
Do you have kids? Kids throw there cds and carry them in a bags with rock and nails. Like for anything else they usually learn after they break a couple of ones but you still have to pay for the first ones. The mod chip allow you to play the backup you make. Without the mod chip your backup is useless. I think this is a legitimate use
Installing Linux
With a mod chip you can install Linux and from there you can install a plethora of new options to your Xbox and transform it in a Media Center. According to toms Hardware review this media center is even better than most "top-of-the-range DVD player's" that you can buy.
Hardware mods
Install a bigger hardware, plug a keyboard an a mousse.
Make an Xbox Cluster
Xbox Cluster
Now I know it's also possible to do many of those things without a mod chip by simply flashing the bios with a special homebrew bios but it is a delicate operation and then you can't play your games anymore. The mod chip allow you to tinker with your Xbox and continue to use it as a gaming console.
Now I know that the DMCA restrict to do many of those things and the debate is not if the DMCA allow us to do them or not but if the DMCA is a blatant abuse that protect the corporations but do not care of the regular citizen.
Yahh, hiii haaaaa! -Major Kong, from Dr. Strangelove
>Without the permission of Sony, you cannot modify the PS2 to break the built in DRM.
Not in America or the UK, you can't, you have all sorts of wacky laws against it (which completely screw up the market, but that's a completely separate discussion).
Look, I don't live in either of those countries. I live in a free country. We can do things like that in Canada and nobody cares. It's a great country. Come by and enjoy it sometime! You might like it enough to stay! It's like the US was 30 years ago. We are even allowed to download MP3s from the internet. Even sharing them is legal. Heck, so legal we made special laws ensuring it would remain legal. Things run so smoothly, sometimes I don't understand why I voted against the returning Prime Minister this last elction, but hey, what the hell.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
>If you happen to use the HDLoader to copy a game that you didn't purchased (pirated per say) then you are breaking the license model.
So, as long as the modchip isn't used to play a pirated game, you're ok with it then?
In that case, why are we arguing? My ad clearly states I won't sell anything for the purposes of piracy. Perhaps I missed your point.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
"Once I buy something, it's mine. Oh wait! So not true anymore" The law does makes fucking the people you bought it from that much sweeter.
"As for growing hemp, what't the problem with that?" :-)
Well, I suspect that the earlier poster is worried that, with all that hemp, he'd be able to make enough rope to hang himself.
Just try buying a baseball game over here, for example. Most of them don't even make it this far. Something like Tokyo Bus Guide on Dreamcast? Better be Japanese, because it's not available anywhere else...
Never mind Spamassassin. When's Spammerassassin coming out?
Just brilliant. Now, I'm not claiming that the parent to your post is anywhere near right with his "statistics", but I seem to recall some numbers indicating that a person is more likely to be wounded/killed by one of their own family members rather than an unknown assailant -- in that setting you're probably very unlikely to be carrying a gun (who carries a gun at home?) or even being able to defend yourself (since you'd presumably be taken by surprise). But I digress...
However, law enforcement is usually NOT part of the statistics for civilian gun-related deaths/injuries because they are: 1) trained in the use of firearms (hopefully much better than the average person), 2) much more likely to end up in violent confrontations, and 3) much more likely to be carrying firearms. So you cannot "use" cops to "disprove" his statistic.
Just to get back on topic: I agree, that most people probably don't care all that much about the concrete case of modchips, but are more worried about the precedent it sets (esp. when precedent is weighted so heavily in American/British-style courts).
HAND.
In the report from the European Court:
"The defendant Customs] also objects to the applicant's [Sony] reference to Commission Regulation (EC) No 1508/2000 of 11 July 2000 concerning the classification of certain goods in the Combined Nomenclature (OJ 2000 L 174, p. 3), under which a product competing with the PlayStation(r)2 was classified under CN Code 9504 10 00. It states that, by the applicant's own admission, that classification concerned a product fundamentally different from PlayStation(r)2 in that it concerned a product whose game programmes cannot be modified by the user."
Sony claims that it is fundamental to the PS2 that the game programmes (and other programmes, they stress that it is not just for games) can be modified by the user. It is this which makes it an "automatic data processing" machine, not just a game, and thus reduces the tariffs payable.
So according to Sony, putting a chip into a general-purpose computer to allow it to run a game it couldn't otherwise play is now illegal in the UK. All those who were thinking of upgrading their graphics cards to play Doom 3 should take note.
because what you are selling allows you to pirate. You may not advertise that it has this super top secret power, but it still does it, and that is what makes it illegal.
Your examples are logical operators, not lists as in Perl's @list context.
Whether they are "grammatical" or not I leave to the philosophers of language, noting only that I have seen both used by intelligent people.
Intelligent people frequently misuse logical, grammatical, and syntactic elements in English. It may not make them less intelligent, but it does make them poorer communicators.
I'm not sure where this is coming from. I was demonstrating that words such as "and" and "or" in English can have diverse meanings in a logical sense.
I'm aware of that, but your examples demonstrate a poorer understanding of English mechanics than you might realize. Unless, of course, you were deliberately being simplistic, in which case my comments merely add to yours. Your intent, however, was not clear.
We may not imagine how our lives could be more frustrating and complex—but Congress can. – Cullen Hightower
>because what you are selling allows you to pirate.
So does a CD-RW drive. And I don't see you crying to Best Buy about that.
You should see by now the very basis of your argument is ludicrous. You like using a CD-RW to backup your software, I'm sure. Well, just as you use one to backup your software, others use one to pirate it.
QED.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
I can use the CD-RW to back up software, but I can't run a pirated program through the CD-RW with out first getting ILLEGAL software for a key-gen. Your argument is invalid. The CD-RW does not nativily (sp) pirate software.
Mod chips have no other use than to let you play pirated games. If you wanted to play your "home brew" games you can. Just buy a licensed Development box from Sony. Its pretty simple.
I often get into arguments where there is no end in sight, and it's obvious that neither side will ever back down (even if deep down they know they're wrong); and in those cases I always wish some objective listener/reader of the argument would back one of us up. So I am appointing myself official judge of this argument (while posting as Anonymous, since it's obvious I'd get killed by moderators for being off topic).
I call it a draw. First of all, KDR_11k tried arguing that the word "pirated" was wrong without bothering to look it up. Then when he was set straight, KDR_11k tried arguing that it was an "amended" definition and a new use for the term, and that therefore it doesn't count. But if we can't use dictionaries like www.dictionary.com and www.m-w.com as standards, then what can we use?
Secondly it is certainly obvious that FractusMan meant "Backup copies" sarcastically. From context it's obvious he's talking about people who illegally copy games. Perhaps FractusMan doesn't understand the difference between people who have illegal copies of games and people who have legitimate copies of games, but regardless, earlier in his post he used the words "stolen" and "copy and sell illegally", and therefore shepd should have been able to parse the correct intention of the phrase (my inclination is that he did realize it, but chose to ignore it).
By the way, shepd seems to be a good, logical, and thorough arguer. Pity he has too much pride to say "Okay, I was wrong about what he meant by 'backed up' ".
>I can use the CD-RW to back up software, but I can't run a pirated program through the CD-RW with out first getting ILLEGAL software for a key-gen.
Ummm, nooooo...
You can easily make an illegal copy of an audio CD with a CD burner using the software included with it. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.
>The CD-RW does not nativily (sp) pirate software.
Sure it does. It can pirate windows XP in a flash. Your "keygen" idea is a complete non-sequitur -- you don't need a keygen for windows XP. A corporate windows XP can be installed multiple times without problems. Microsoft *designed* it to work that way. Software included with all CD burners will easily copy a windows XP disk.
>Mod chips have no other use than to let you play pirated games.
Modchips can do the following legal activities:
- Homebrew software
- Region-free
- Macrovision off
- Backup software
- Faster boot time
- Hard Drive explorer
I thought we had covered that. Perhaps you haven't read fully about modchips?
>If you wanted to play your "home brew" games you can. Just buy a licensed Development box from Sony. Its pretty simple.
The Sony development box lacks:
- Macrovision off
- Hard Drive explorer
- Games Region Free (well, this I assume, I don't know)
- DVD Region Free (this, I know, for sure, won't be in the development box)
- Faster boot time
Furthermore, I doubt just anyone can buy a Sony development box. Can they? Could I?
If so, I'd love to get my hands on one. Point me to the source!
If regular consumers cannot purchase such a box from Sony, you can understand their need to modchip their console to play Homebrew games, right? In that case, I think we could say modchips are, in fact, Sony's fault. They made them exist. They can stop them existing at any time by letting anyone buy a development PS2 for a resonable price (according to you it will do *most* modchip features). If Sony charges anything more than a few dollars extra for the development box, again, Sony is legitimizing the use of modchips.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
Sony sold dev boxes to the general public about a year ago. The mod chips break the licensing model of the PS2 which makes all of their "legal" offerings illegal.
Copying a CD is not illegal. Using a pirated serial number is. Don't go down the slippery slope of "steak knifes should be illegal because you can stab people".