Slashdot Mirror
U.S. House Votes to Extend Patriot Act
Rick Zeman writes "In the wake of today's 4 dud bombings in London, the U.S. House has voted to extend the Patriot Act by a vote of 257-171. This includes 10-year extensions to the two other provisions set to expire on December 31, one allowing roving wiretaps, and another allowing searches of library and medical records."
to welcome our new American Overlords
I, for one, welcome our new republican overlords
Gotta love the excuses that cost us our freedoms...
Maybe the terrorists have already won.
So, how many tinfoil hat types do we have wondering if the London thing today was a staged engouragment to pass the bill? :)
The Dem's sound bite on this is that they support the extension, but they have some "concerns" about civil liberties. Gee, thanks a shitload for giving us absolutely nowhere to turn to for sanity in this country. I apologize to the few honest politicians left out there for saying that the entire system is fucked.
They're also trying to make hay by criticizing the war in Iraq. But where the fuck were they before we, for the first time in history, started a war where none already existed?
Fuck you, Bill Clinton, for demeaning the office of President in such a way that infinitely corrupt GW could trick a bunch of right wing zealots to vote for him despite the pain he has caused.
pWned!
didn't want those civil liberties anyway.
There goes the neighborhood.
"The terrorists will never succeed in taking away our freedoms and civil liberties!"
Well, technically, they're using our own politicians to accomplish that, if that is indeed their goal. Now that is a feat: getting your enemy to obtain your goal for you.
Yes, the house voted to extend it, but it still has to make it through the senate, which will be an interesting process.
I'm just interested in seeing how quickly the conspiracy theorist start spewing stories about how the U.S. was involved in this because only the detonators went off.
Get a free Ipod!
To cheers and thunderous applause.
RTFA again for the best results.
The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy strikes again!
I'm kind of wondering why there were no "electronic protests" going on. Why is it we had the million man march for the broadcast flag but not a peep for this? Am I the only one confused?
I would've been first in line to say something about this had I known...
**note: if there was something and I missed it feel free to point it out, because that is very likely.
Hm, maybe I should brush up on my national anthems.
*ahem*
Oh, Canada,
Our home and native land,...
Nobody's gay for Mole-Man.
Would it make you feel better if the bombs had not been duds?
BC
As the ratio of people per square mile increases, the rights of that population decreases. It is a harsh reality.
"The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country." -Adolph Hitler
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. " -Benjamin Franklin
Dang, they've taken out the libraries... If only there was some other place I could find subversive information...
I'm speechless. I really can't think of anything to say without being irrational and ranting, so I won't. I'm just sad for the current state of affairs and the world as a whole, and I just want the pain everywhere in the world to end. My thoughts and prayers go out to everyone injured or killed in terrorist incidents, and I pray that we find a rational way to stop terrorists without resorting to a secret government.
US businesses that currently accept chip and PIN/signature
Why not?
/hates politics and stupid people with no priorities or ability to think for themselves.
If there is a terrorist bombing, we get money back (taxes).
Hold lawmakers accountable, so they create laws specifically for the purpose of prevention, not so they can brag about baseless legislation.
Americans know to look for a guarantee or a warranty on things... why do we hold manufacturers to these standards, but not self absorbed politicians.
I say we need a money back guarantee. If this fails in the next 10 years, we get refunded tax money.
If Apple can get attacked legally for iPod batteries that eventually don't hold their charge (because that's so serious), why not hold politicians in that type of arrangement?
Are iPod batteries more valued than safety?
Check this webpage for the record of who voted what, whenever they get around to putting it online. That's what I was linked to by my local representative's site.
Download the three episodes from the Internet Archive.org and SEE THEM.
Even if you do not agree with his conclusion, the historical background will give you a far clearer picture of the reality of the situation.
"'Periodically revisiting the Patriot Act is a good thing,' said Rep. Martin Meehan, D-Massachusetts. 'The Patriot Act was an effort to answer the most difficult question a democracy faces: How much freedom are we willing to give up to feel safe?'"
The answer to that question should be none. We cannot give up any freedom just to feel safe, or, for that matter, to even be safe.
On the other hand, it's about time people start realizing freedom is something they'll have to fight for--if they even want it anymore that is.
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
"the US House has voted to extend the Patriot Act"
If I'm reading the article right, I'd say "extend" isn't quite strong enough of a word:
From the article: "The bulk of the back-and-forth centered on language making permanent 14 of 16 provisions that had four-year sunset provisions under the original law..."
I have to strongly agree with the critics mentioned in the article, who "said the sunsets were wisely inserted amid the inflamed passions following the September 11 attacks, and should be retained to assess the long-term impact of the law."
Guess the House didn't think so.
Is anyone really supprised by this move? We need to start getting ready to exercise the second ammendment.
I've hit Karma 50 and gotten a Score:5, Troll... I win!
A competing bill also has been approved by the Senate Intelligence Committee, which would give the FBI expanded powers to subpoena records without the approval of a judge or grand jury. That ensured further Senate talks on the terrorism-fighting measure. The House legislation will also have to be reconciled with whatever emerges from the Senate.
So, let's use this time effectively. Get the word out, and contact your senator. The PATRIOT Act will probably pass, but we can at least try to get ammendments to it that will protect civil liberties while still allowing different law enforcement agencies to work with each other. While I would prefer not to have the PATRIOT act pass, we'd be better off with a bill that protects privacy and prevents racial profiling.
Personally, I think we should allow it to expire and start over. Many bits are useful, but let's have more emphasis on protecting American rights/liberties. And come on - who named this thing? What an awful, divisive name; it implies that anyone who opposes it is unpatriotic, which is complete horseshit. Name the act for what it does, not for cheap political points.
Electric Monkey Pants
and another allowing searches of library and medical records
Yeah, but at least we live in the land of the free... where we don't have to worry about being controlled by a draconian government, and having our privacy needlessly invaded.
Bored and trolling, are we?
I'm sure you'll find what you're looking for at www.FreeRepublic.com... perhaps you should be posting there instead?
wants to be the first monkey to touch the monolith
It stops being a conspiracy theory when all you have are facts.
http://rense.com/Datapages/londonbmb.htm
Patriot Act coming up for revote
England losing support to stay in Iraq
New need to fuel the fight against 'those terrorists'
London just got the olympic bid
The g8 summit.
The orwellian "we can't define the enemy, so we can't define the victory, so we'll just keep an ongoing war against a mythical enemy" syndrome
The list goes on
posted anonymously, because my karma can't take any more hits from those that censor anything that would shatter their world view.
"After measured deliberation and a public debate, the House has again provided the brave men and women of law enforcement with critical tools in their efforts to combat terrorism and protect us FROM the American people", Attorney General Alberto Gonzales said in a statement.
How many people were successfully prosecuted AS TERRORISTS under the Patriot Act again?
There is truth in humor.
I may not care who sees the list of books I check out from the library, but I like knowing that the privacy is there. Required or not.
Nobody's gay for Mole-Man.
The London attacks will bring PATRIOT style legislation to Europe. We're talking mandatory data retention, search warrants without probable cause, and confiscations without the need to inform the suspect. In Sweden there is talk about breaking down the barrier between law enforcement and the military. In Italy they're talking about allowing interrogation without a laywer present. All the stuff we wouldn't normally accept. The bombs may have struck London, but their effect will soon be known to everyone in the EU.
With the http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/07/21/014121 4&tid=126&tid=99Ray Gun to keep out of control "rioters" at bay and listening on "possible terrorists" i can finally put aside all the paranoia live a worry-free life knowning that my governement is "watching" my back.
Before he was elected, Bush was actually quoted as saying that he believed the American people had too much freedom.
Terrorism is just being used as an excuse for Bush to remove everyones rights.
If you hurry, we might be able to stuff you somewhere in Nunavut. If you get friendly with the locals, you'll find an infinite supply of firewater and marrywanna.
Nobody's gay for Mole-Man.
also, why isint anyone upset that tax payer money is paying some fool to look at library records? what good is a library record? to see how many times the person checked out 'how to draw manga'?
They'll use it to their advantage. 1) The London attacks did not happen on US soil. Therefore the measures taken MUST HAVE WORKED ("this rock keeps tigers away"). 2) Conveniently, the war on terror will never be over. Therefore we should extend the patriot act for as long as damn well possible.
I think this is a great and american thing
malcolmr1@comcast.net
Why extend them?
Or to ask it in a more direct manner, exactly what terrorist activities have these bills stopped since they were enacted? Any?
What's the benefit? How has the Patriot act helped us so far?
Has it done any good at all yet - or is it just rights erosion for the expediency of law enforcement?
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
Moore himself berated democrats for being utter wusses.. refusing to stand up for their values, and becomming nothing more than bland republicans themselves. It is their fault.. they caved to the smear campaign engineered by the right-winged media outlets and gae up... the guardians have left the gates open and taken a long nap.
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
During the committee negotiations in the House of Representatives, one Democrat attempted to append an amendment to this Police Act that explicitly stated that the Act did not in any way suspend Habeas Corpus. That foundation of American justice was claimed by opponents to be threatened by the Act, which threat was denied by its supporters. So why did Republicans vote down that simple amendment? It surely would have saved a lot of time and money in any case where a judge had to decide whether, in fact, the Act did violate the Habeas Corpus principle. What does this Act therefore really mean, once the dross of rhetoric that ushers it through the process is lost in the sands of history?
--
make install -not war
"Critics heralded the bulk of the existing law, but said the sunsets were wisely inserted amid the inflamed passions following the September 11 attacks, and should be retained to assess the long-term impact of the law." So when did 2 weeks right after terrorist attacks in London killing 56 people, and a couple of hour after four more attacks (even though they were dud's) didn't count for inflamed passions or at least some biase. If you ask me, all the people that claim there will be a terrorist attack before X because it will help push things along for party Y don't so sound crazy any more.
BTW, that's the part of this that scares me the most. If they could do this 2 weeks after the last attack, they could've killed as many people as last time. Cong stupid luck, but they will almost certainly try again, and next time they won't make the same mistake, how do you stop them again?
I forsee xray machines on the tube...
The first rule of USENET is you do not talk about USENET.
fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck
(For some strange reason the Slashdot filter doesn't like this post. I can't imagine why.)
Breaking Into the Industry - A development log about starting a game studio.
it is the slippery slope.
first today it will be 1%
then tommorow 1.5%
the next day maybe 2% gone
a week? 5% gone,
20 years? 50% gone
I am talking about freedoms. They are slipping through your fingers and you care not.
Check journal for info on Anti-TextBook, an idea by me.
They hate us because of our freedom... so if we remove our freedoms they won't hate us anymore!
Blessed are the 1337, for they shall pwn the earth.
Senate = House
Same dam fucking thing.
We're fucked.
...welcome to the land of the everchanging opinion! Instead of grumbling about the erosion of civil rights, ask instead what the future may hold. The tides are already turning for the current lame duck sitting in the office on the hill. So then, might we at least consider that DC will wake up, shake the fog from its collective head, and repeal or alter the damn thing?
Uhm, the quote is Hermann Goering... NOT hitler.
"fool me once, shame on -- shame on you. Fool me -- you can't get fooled again!" GWB I would think our representatives would know better than to prolong this legislative travesty. Sad.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signature_bloc
No matter who hires Alan Kay, we're still screwed.
-Rick
"Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
in soviet russia patriot acts you.
actually I am happy to see you, however that is in fact a banana in my pocket.
This is true. Or it used to be. Whatever the Senate passes must be reconciled with the House version by a conference committee. In theory, this should ensure that the House and Senate bills are fairly blended. The Senate is a more moderate and bipartisan place, so a moderate version of the bill in the Senate might help to temper the bill that just passed in the House.
Unfortunately, conference committees have become another avenue for abuse of power over the past several years. With one party dominating both the House and Senate, the other party can be shut out of committee. The same goes for any moderate members of the majority party who don't go along with the party line. So any compromises in the Senate bill that don't please the majority leaders can be conveniently wiped out at that point. It's politically difficult for a Senator to turn around and vote against a bill they've already "passed", so these changed bills typically sail through a final vote and become law, no matter how unrecognizable they become.
Look for this process to conveniently erase any improvements or checks on the power of law enforcement that find their way into a Senate bill.
if it were only going to be used against people
who were trying to try to blow things up.
The problem is it's going to end up being used
against grandmothers with glaucoma and kids
with a few dime bags.
It's like the RICO act, meant to be used against
racketeers but just try to get your car back if
you drive down the wrong street at the wrong time.
The war on drugs has turned our government into
paternalistic assholes and changed cops from
helpful servants into self-righteous bastards
who see a criminal in every face.
We set ourselves up for this.
Where better for a guilty, nervous would-be bomber
to hide that among a population filled with guilty,
nervous drug users?
Wake up.
Tell your congressmen to repeal drug laws because they
only fuel organized crime, camouflage the real danger
among us and make those who would do us harm safer
by diverting funds and manpower from hunting bombers
down like animals to locking up teenage girls because
they were caught with a joint.
loyalty above all, save honor
Yea, whatever, fuck 'em.
... any one "power" that, for what ever fucked up reason, thinks they need to decide the fates of others.
Bring the battle to my steps, and I will fight back.
Some people here may be daft enough to think I am reffering to what most people,usually incorrectly, like to refer to as terrorists. Just to clarify, I am reffering to the REAL terrorists, the US government, the UK government, the AU government
Keep in mind, there is a BIG difference between deciding someones fate and *SIMPLY* keeping the peace (emphisis on the word PEACE).
-- http://anonet.org -- The internet the way it was meant to be. Check it out, you may be surprised.
Damn reactionary bastards! Don't you law makers get it?!? You just let the terrorists win! AGAIN!
"Oh we won't let them change how we live our lives..."
What do you think you just did?
Terrorists are horrible unspeakable evil, but sometimes stupid people in office due just as much damage.
*sigh*
This sig intentionally left blank.
... its one step closer to Titors predictions...
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
...by someone posting this Star Wars quote in every single Slashdot article involving civil liberties lately.
When the first Patriot Act passed I knew the government was lying when they said they would not extend it past it's deadline. I understand during a time of war it has been necessary in the past to put a lockdown on certain freedoms, but aren't we not at war anymore? I've watched our freedoms being raped from us every single day for the extent of my life any the only reason behind it is so that the government makes some cash. Luckily we're still able to talk about the way we see things on sites like this, but I wonder how long that will last?
[ brakken ]
I have a mousepad with "smash head here" written on it. But, seriously...
One of Osama's stated goals is to destroy, through holy war, America (the Great Satan). One of the things that made us great was our Constitution, that great document which protects our freedoms. Yet here goes the House of Representatives, doing exactly what bin Laden wants: Taking away our freedom. In fact, doing the one thing that Osama can never do. The only question I really want answered is, "House of Representatives: Who the heck are you representing?" Because I don't believe that the majority of America, let alone 60% of us, want the government to be able to get search warrants without a judge's consent. To force us to keep quiet about a search. To invade the privacy of our medical and library records.
And I don't want to hear any BS about 'it will only be used on/against terrorists.' This government, like any other, has abused/abuses almost every power it was ever given. And you think they'll pass up something as juicy, and so easy, and so incredibly tempting to abuse as this? Look at RICO. It was passed so the cops could bust meetings of mobsters. Now it's routinely used against groups of garden-variety criminals.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H L Mencken. Terrorism is a complex problem. We have to pull off a considerable juggling act: We have to try and defend ourselves against terrorists. We also have to make sure that we have a nation that is free and worth defending when we're done. We have to find and assauge the root cause of the hatred, because as Vietnam and now Iraq have demonstrated, superior technology can't defeat a foe with the power of conviction in his beliefs. And we have to reign in our collective ego, and not be too proud to admit that Iraq is a lost cause and that we should leave. And so far, our government is only keeping one ball in the air. The "Patriot" act is an answer that is clear, simple, and dead wrong.
"If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy." -- James Madison
"History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives." -- Abba Eban.
"Most Democrats echoed that support but said they were concerned the law could allow citizens' civil liberties to be infringed." translate(BS, ENGLISH) == "The 43 Democrats who voted in favor secretly oppose it but have no spine or willpower to say so."
"While the Patriot Act and other anti-terrorism initiatives have helped avert additional attacks on our soil, the threat has not receded," said Rep. James Sensenbrenner, R-Wisconsin, chairman of the House Judiciary Committee. Of course not, dumbass. The threat will not recede until we (the Infidels) remove our troops from the Holy Land (Saudi Arabia) because that's exactly what Osama expicitly stated! But America won't do that and we all know why.
"The House debate included frequent references to the attacks earlier in the day, two weeks after larger London blasts that killed 56, including four suicide bombers." Hmmm... could it be that THIS is what the London blasts were about?
Ugh... I am disgusted with this government beyond words.
Its the end of the world as we know it ... [come on, dont stop now] and I feel fine."
If you don't like it, here's an idea that isn't "STFU" or "move".
Write to your congressman or senators, who were elected to represent you and can only represent you if they hear from you, and politely tell them that you disagree with this. Ask them to consider changing their minds.
A letter can make a difference.
I've been wondering if there was a "message" in the locations. Warren (War on) Shephard's Bush (President Bush) Oval (Office) ...
rewriting history since 2109
You're a little late with that - freedom went out the door, oh, probably a hundred years ago when Lincoln became dictator. One could probably pick an earlier time, such as when John Adams revoked habeous corpus during Shay's Rebellion (if I got the right Adams).
It doesn't concern me any more. In due time, history shows, all empires get their comeuppance.
Your job is simply to avoid getting squashed in the comeuppance. Concentrate on that, not on trying to change history or primate human nature (unless you're working on nanotech.)
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
If this fails in the next 10 years, we get refunded tax money.
If you want a "tax refund", you can get one right now by taking out an extra $300 on your credit card. Just like the government a few years back, banks will eagerly give you $300 in cash now along with more than $300 in debt you'll be made to pay back later. The only way to cut taxes and keep them cut is to also cut expenditures... and except for Congress' salaries (which come to less than $1 per taxpayer per year), any government expenditures which aren't worth the price ought to be cut whether we're attacked again or not.
If Bush can get away with the eggregious and stupid post-hoc fallacy that he uses to justify the extension of the Patriot Act, our freedom is in more trouble than we realize. Americans themselves have to be accountable before they have the ability to hold anyone else to that standard.
Here's the list.
But here's a summary:
94% of Republicans voted for the act. They have no morals.
21% of Democrats voted for the act. They have no strength.
94% of Repubs and 21% of Dems voted to renew the Patriot Act
Terrorists win when fear is the overarching guidance for policy. Where does more intrusive and arbitrary infringements on personal liberty and privacy fit in with "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?"
It would appear that the terrorists are winning in my great country, since they win when the populace forgets its highest ideals and instead focuses on security and fear. The PATRIOT act, in its current form, goes too far, and, as history shows, when a government - ANY government - gains a "right" or "power", it is very hard to take it back.
Yes, thousands died on 9/11. It was a terrible, terrible cowardly attack. But what of the lives of hundreds of thousands who have died since the American Revolution to fight to restrict government intrusion into our private lives and secure our liberty? Do they mean nothing?
"I don't want to hear your wild insane "Bush can knock down my door without a warrant" theories, I want to know how YOU have been negatively effected by the patriot act."
My money is funding it.
I can't tell you that. To do so would be a violation of the Patriot Act and I could be imprisoned as a terrorist sympathizer, indefinitely without trial. If fact my mentioning this may already be a violation.
Article X: The powers not delegated... by the Constitution...are reserved...to the people
Think about it, when was the last time a bad law was repealed ?
;)
It was just a year and a half ago that the sodomy laws were repealed
Unless it involves a lot of congressmen losing their jobs, it doesn't happen.
Which is precisely why the courts have the power to interperet & repeal laws.
dude, i'd learn to speak french for that.
The first rule of USENET is you do not talk about USENET.
Look at it this way...there was a change of about 100 votes against the Patriot Act since it was passed the first time.
357-66 on October 24, 2001
257-171 on July 21, 2005
In about 4 years that's a lot of crow eaten. (Mostly democrats admittedly, but 11 more Republican votes against than in 2001 (14 now to 3 in 2001. Wikipedia was the source for the link above incidentally.)
How has the 'Patriot' act affected me? It has affected me because I am not willing to wait for someone to declare Martial Law before I decide that my rights are being screwed over now.
Every time the government uses an excuse like this to restrict the freedom of Americans...
...the terrorists win just a little bit more.
Every time an American citizen is held indefinitely by the courts without trial or proof of guilt...
Every time a hate crime is committed against a Moslem...
Every time the government suspends its laws in the name of the War on Terror...
(Yeah, I know it'll be modded "redundant." It's just something that's been on my mind for awhile, and now seemed like a good time to say it.)
-- The reason it's called the right wing? Irony.
If the terrorists hated Bush, they wouldn't have given him such grandiose power to arbitrarily and secretely detain those accused of being odd.
Either we have some uniquely dumb terrorists, or they don't hate Bush all that much (which is anti-american; the americans hate Bush with a passion).
Or perhaps there is more to this Carlyle and Bin Laden's family corporation with a Bush in it than appears at first. It's not like the first lady didn't get 100,000$ of jewelry offered by a middle east nation just before the war you know.
It's sad to say, Bush and the terrorists *need* each other in order to extend their influence. Bush wouldn't have a second term if not for the war.
Microsoft is pure dog-ma. FreeBSD is pure cat-ma.
" "The terrorists will never succeed in taking away our freedoms and civil liberties!"
Well, technically, they're using our own politicians to accomplish that, if that is indeed their goal. Now that is a feat: getting your enemy to obtain your goal for you."
There's always some person who says something like this and gets modded up as insightful. It's more complicated than that, however. By threatening your life, the terrorists have already taken away your freedom. Security is necessary to have freedom. So reasonable politicians (not just the Bush admin.), including both Democrat and Republican senators, are trying to strike a balance to gain back some of the freedom lost trhough loss of security, as the expense of some other freedoms.
The attempted bombing in London today shows terrorists can strike at will, even in a place they just attacked. The British govt. has not made the subway any more secure in the last two weeks, despite all the rhetoric. I won't be surpirsed if they enact more PATRIOT act laws as well.
Vote for Pedro
From TFA: "Democrats were incensed after Republican leaders blocked consideration of an amendment that would have blocked the library searches. The House approved identical language last month in a test vote."
How can the Republican party pull this kind of shit and still claim that they stand for democracy? I honestly feel sorry for my Republican friends who have to deal daily with the knowledge that their party is under the control of bullies and bastards like these.
-- The reason it's called the right wing? Irony.
When the PATRIOT Act was first proposed a lot of people - myself included - saw it for what it was after momentarily putting aside the shock and unreal horror of 9/11.
Thus, the following exchange occurred many times with many different people.
Me: "So you're saying that you think this whole thing might be a bad idea in the long run?"
Them: "Yeah, but don't worry, everything sunsets in five years. The bill will expire and by that point the threat will have diminished to the point where it won't be needed any longer. Chill man. Stop being a Chicken Little about things."
Me: "Don't you realize that once the government gets more power that they are very unlikely to ever give it up again? Do you understand how many times this sort of thing has happened, where temporary measures such as taxes to fund wars, emergency powers and the like end up going on forever?
Them: "You have to wake up to this post -9/11 world we live in now. Things are different, we have to win this war on terrorism!"
Me: "How do you win a war against a tactic? Terrorism is here to stay, and if you let this bill come into law then it will be here to stay. There is zero doubt that reason will be found to keep it and use it as justification for further restrictive bills. Once the ball is rolling on this, it will be more or less impossible to stop."
Them: "Not more of that liberal alarmist BS..."
I had that conversation about 50,000 times, I'm sure many of you did as well. The cliche of a "slippery slope" is a cliche because it so often proves to be true. The PATRIOT Act was never going to expire and never will. Terrorism is too nebulous of a threat to ever go away. It can be brought out indefinitely to justify the permanence of such legislation, regardless of wether it is a truly valuable tool and one that respects the rights of all those who fall under its jurisdiction.
The rumblings of what comes after the PATRIOT Act have been a troubling sight on the horizon for the past few years now. Drafts have been circulated on Capitol Hill. They contain such provisions as being stripped of your natural-born citizenship by executive order upon being deemed an "enemy combatant" and various other items that you can read up on at non-tinfoil sites out there.
I'm not gloating that I was proved right. I'm depressed. I wanted little more than to see 2005 close with the likes of the PATRIOT Act in the rearview. To wake up from the nightmare that we've all descended into. The nightmare that is the kind of world we saw dawn on a September morning almost 4 years ago. Sheer unimaginable brutality delivered by surprise along the sense that worse was yet to come at some point, while we were forced to watch those we had entrusted with our safety play politics with it and make the power grabs that we have always dismissed as fantasies of lunatics on the fringes of society.
The actions of Al-Queda and governments around the world in response, were both examples of dramatic and unexpected reactions to external influences. Hoping that they were an aberration proved to be futile. They are now the new norm.
I think at this time the only thing that I can really say is that when the government pushes more legislation and word starts getting around about a new bill coming through the pipe, do not dismiss it with the usual "It will never get out of committee" or the equally as overused "It will never pass."
If by now, you haven't learned to grasp that you need to expect the unexpected, then the next 5 years look like they will be quite a ride for you.
Well, guess what the terrorists have won.
Hopefully it won't take violence, but if it comes to that, then yes. All the talk about hunting rifles v. assault rifles is insignificant. "We The People" outnumber the standing military of the United States by millions and millions of people. If enough of us decide we're tired of having our freedoms taken away, we're completely capable of taking them back.
The trick is getting enough people to care, to do something about it.
// TODO: Insert Cool Sig
Why do you assume everyone who reads/posts to /. is upset by this?
His name is no longer Jose Padilla.
= article&node=&contentId=A28493-2002Jun10¬Found= true
... what the food?
It is Abdullah Al Muhajir. He is an Al Qaeda associate. An associate of his in Pakistan is in jail for terrorist activities (which means he's a serious hard guy). He is alleged to have taken up arms against the US and to conspire with bin Laden to kill Americans with a dirty bomb. Traveling from Pakistan terrorist madrassa to Chicago.
Al Muhajir is a hard core, nasty Islamic terrorist. His avowed aim is to kill millions of Americans.
"A former Latin Kings gang member in Chicago, al Muhajir served time in juvenile hall in connection with a gang killing and other incidents in Chicago. During a later stay in a Florida prison as an adult, he converted to a militant form of Islam, law enforcement sources said. Officials said he is married to a Middle Eastern woman, identified by one law enforcement source as an Egyptian."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename
According to the Washington Post (that conservative anti-liberty rag), he had been under observation in Pakistan by the FBI and CIA for terrorist activity. His buddy is in jail in Pakistan. Google. It's your friend. You might try it sometime. www.bugmenot for WaPo registration info.
So, let's review:
A. Juvie record, involved in gang killing.
B. Converts to Islam in the slam, a militant terrorist-oriented version of Islam.
C. Marries an Egyptian.
D. Hangs out in terrorist madrassas in Pakistan for
Yup. I'd want to get on that guy's side too.
Seriously, does the term "idiotarian" mean anything to you? Google it's your friend you should try it sometime.
I guess no one found it odd that a terrorist attack occured in London THE SAME FREAKING DAY the united states has a session on extending the patriot act?
They essentially now live with more freedoms than us in their own homeland.
That same question could have been asked to citizens of the Stalinist Soviet Union or Nazi Germany for that matter, and you'd have virtually the same stats. Effected 1%, not effected 99%. Actually, in Stalinist Russia and Nazi Germany many people received financial windfalls through promotions, or firesales for the victims. Keep your rhetorical flamebait to yourself loser.
The Patriot Act states that Law Enforcement may find out what BOOKS you checked out at a Library, not what you did on their computers.
Ignorance is bliss I guess.
Open Source Sushi
Since there's no law that says they can't, I assume the Feds have already searched my house and library records. How's that grab you, "Republican"?
you can have my violent video games when you pry them from my cold, dead hands.
Prime UID Club
my tax dollars pay for it, dumbass.
jesus christ, seriously: if you don't care about liberty and freedom, if you honestly think the patriot act is a good idea, why the fuck are you living in this country? remember that quote about "and when they came for me, there was no one left to defend me"? no, didn't think so. those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it, retard. shit.
It was a literary device. Without needing to agree with the implication, I understood the grandparent's intent. You missed it.
Not that I post on slashdot or anything.
I live in the UK and we're getting the same things happening to us as the US is getting, doesn't it just make you want to walk up to Bush/Blaire and go
"Oi idiot, Terrorism is already illegal, you can make all the laws you like, but you're not going to stop some nutter slapping bombs to his chest and blowing himself and anyone else near up".
Most suicide bombers are prepared to die, if they kill 1 or 100 guys. They'll blow themselvs up at the slightest chance of them being caught, so why the hell do they think this does anything but endanger police and security officers?
I like muppets.
1) Post the Natalie Portman quote in every single Slashdot article involving civil liberities
2) ???
3) Profit!
At least it didn't pass unanimously, with no debate, in the middle of the night and with the Congress out of session.
Can I tell the cops that when they arrest me in my home for smoking some pot? No? I guess I'm a terrorist too....
Open Source Sushi
Those in power wanted the patriot act extended, but last i heard congress was dragging it's feet.
Then "terrorist" attacks in london.
Not the act is being extended 10 years (!).
Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
Here are a few of my favorites... it's almost as if the founding fathers were speaking of this very bill.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. " Ben Franklin
"If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy." James Madison
"It is a universal truth that the loss of liberty at home is to be charged to the provisions against danger, real or pretended, from abroad." James Madison
"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." Thomas Jefferson
If you want to change things, visit http://www.lp.org/
The general public has handguns and hunting rifles. The US Government has all manner of assault rifles, grenades, bombs, tanks, planes, etc.
That, my friend, has never been the problem. What about when the government had swords, cavalry, rifles and artillery, and the people had, uhh, pitchforks? When the people stop working, the economy collapses, and no one is moving ammunition, fuel and food to the army any more. Plus how does the soldier feel when asked to open fire on a public whose opinion he might basically agree with? It becomes a lot easier to turn on the few military leaders than wipe out the teeming masses. You go from being the bad guy to being the hero instantly.
Technology has never stopped a revolution.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Oh yeah, IT HASN'T. Unless your name is Habib and you wear a turbin to work then nobody gives a fvck what you do.
So Moslems don't deserve the rights that the rest of us enjoy eh? I'd like to here the rationale behind that piece of shit comment...
oh, btw, what's up with the "not a script" image? it was actually a word this time, "analyze". How's that going to stop a bot with a dictionary attack?
see image here
"goodbye and hello, as always" ~Prince Corwin, from Zelazny's Amber series
As much as he'd like it to be, that post was not insightful.
The grandparent's quote was not "fake" - it was just out of context, as Bush used it jokingly. In contrast, Clinton, never equated Hitler and Jesus in any context.
Not that I post on slashdot or anything.
To all of you out there that are whining about our loss of freedoms/privacy.. what are you doing to help stop it? Have you at least written a letter to your senator?
It's worth noting that the Senate Judiciary committee unanimously recommended a different PATRIOT reauthorization act on Thursday. It's discussed in the Washington Post. Excerpt from Post article:
"Earlier in the day, however, the Senate Judiciary Committee unanimously approved a bill that goes significantly further in modifying the Patriot Act. It would require greater oversight of the Justice Department and would place new restrictions on secret searches and surveillance in terrorism probes [...] would allow people to challenge warrants approved by a secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court and would require that subjects of secret searches be notified within seven days unless an extension is approved by a judge."
This was an 18-0 vote in a committee which includes some of the Senate's most vocal conservatives (Jeff Sessions, Sam Brownback) and, on the flip side, some of its most liberal members (Ted Kennedy, Russ Feingold). Feingold was the *only* Senator to vote against PATRIOT in 2001, and even he found this version palatable.
The bill which was reported out of committee was a substitute for S.1389. Thomas should have this new version up in a day or two. PATRIOT is going to be reauthorized - that's a given. Accepting this, liberals and conservatives alike should be backing the Senate Judiciary version of this legislation. As the Post notes, it is significantly more contrained than any of the others under consideration.
Call your Senators and Representatives. Support S.1389, the Specter/Feinstein/Kyl USA PATRIOT Improvement and Reauthorization Act of 2005.
"Another successful amendment sets a 20-year jail term for an attack against a rail or mass-transit vehicle; a 30-year sentence if the vehicle carries nuclear material; and life imprisonment -- with the possibility of the death penalty -- if anyone is killed in such an attack."
So, if I put a penny on the train tracks I go to jail? OH CRAP! (runs off...)
Check again- almost everyone who voted against it was Democrat.
Only 21% of Democrats voted for this. 4 out of 5 voted against.
On the other hand, 96% of Republicans voted for it.
That said, if every single Dem had voted against it, we'd be 1 vote short. We'd have to convince 1 of those republicans who voted "yes" to vote "no."
I'd say that Britain won against the IRA, as far as getting them to stop their terrorism. N. Ireland is still pretty much a British territory, and the IRA has been declawed, both militarily and politically.
but Israel has sort of capitulated w.r.t. Gaza Strip & Sinai Peninsula, but the numbers were certainly against them in Gaza if it were to come down to a vote. At least there is some semblance of moderate sanity trying to finally prevail in Palestinian politics. Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah are getting kind of desperate.
But this will all be small cookies if China finally decides to get seriously physical about Taiwan.
First they came for the Jews and no one protested.
Then they came for the Gypsies.
Then they came for the Communists and no one protested.
Then they came for the Catholics and no one protested.
Then they came for me, and there was No One Left to protest.
-- Martin Niemoeller
All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream.
The assumptions I'm making are based solely upon the content of your post, which is reminiscent of the intellectual rigor and sophistication of those I have seen posted to www.FreeRepublic.com... hence my recommendation.
wants to be the first monkey to touch the monolith
How has YOUR LIFE been effected by the Patriot Act?? I don't want to hear your wild insane "Bush can knock down my door without a warrant" theories, I want to know how YOU have been negatively effected by the patriot act.
*Opens bag of TrollChow(TM)*
Well for starters it is now possible for my own government to hold me indefinately with no explaination, trail, access to legal recourse, etc.
Oh yeah, IT HASN'T. Unless your name is Habib and you wear a turbin to work then nobody gives a fvck what you do. I also know that if 9/11 occurred during the presidency of a Democrat you'd be STFUing right about now, you wouldn't even see 100000 crap articles like this on slashdot.
Racist much? Go home redneck.
PUT UP OR SHUT UP, HOW HAS THE PATRIOT ACT EFFECTED YOU????
I now have a 100% legitamate reason to fear my government, who appears more willing to cave in to the terror mentality that "the enemy" is pushing, rather than DO THEIR F-ING JOBS and resolve the situation.
The problem with freedom is that idiots are free to take it away.
Sure, people can consider these things, but when that consideration is enough to get a majority vote, it says one thing, that our freedoms are toilet paper.
I didn't say that they can't 'consider' this, just that you should be offended that they did.
"In Soviet Russia, you don't beat terrorists, terrorists beat YOU!"
Ok so I've been interning down here and gotten to watch this whole thing unfold, albeit from a distance. The basic gist is that the judiciary committee actually did a pretty good job of creating a compromise, by allowing a lot of ammendments to the bill to be brought up, many of them specifically reinstating sunset provisions on all of the controversial sections. This in effect would probably have meant the demise of the Patriot Act the third time around because, even though a lot of Republicans voted for the bill, many of them had reservations as can be seen by the motion to recommit the bill (ie send it back to committee, which would have effectively killed it) which only lost by 9 votes.
The main problem came in the Rules committee, which marks up the bill and sets up procedure for its debate. Rules basically gutted out all of the significant amendments and only allotted time for the consideration of rather menial ammendments that would either not pass at all or be so inane that their passage would not make a dent in the bulk of the text. This is what effectively killed any effort to affect meaningful change in the Patriot Act. I have no doubt that the reinserting of the sunset provisions (at least) would have passed if it were allowed to be offered. Of course, that's probably why it was never offered.
The sun beams down on a brand new day, No more welfare tax to pay, Unsightly slums gone up in flashing light...
(quick, who is occupying PAKISTAN?)
America's tentacles are already all over Pakistan. Setting up Musharaf as the next Saddam.
Difference is Musharraf already has home grown WMDs and had his own people selling nuclear secrets, or was that your point ?
indeed what you say is true.. still this party has the truth on their side 9 times out of ten and don't stick it to the dirt bags who are making their party values a "dirty word". As my family always says to me.. it's not "democrat".. it's one word "liberaldemocrat". I can't really commiserate with a party which allows itself to be bashed with it's own name, while their opponents have so much juicy dirt just waiting to grace the pages... every paper across the nation could print a different piece of filth.. and they still would not run out (and that's just bush)
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
one interesting question I have is, if I am Canadian, but some of my data is stored on a US database, then dose this Patriot Act give the US government full rights to view this information at there own accord. If that's true, then its interesting to see how even though I am not in the US, they can still do things to me. Time to relay look at where companeys I deal with store there records.
Um, thought the US the land of the free. Honestly I feel sorry for some of the crap that US citizens well have to go through and loss of freedoms this Patriot Act removes from you.
I am reminded of what a US senator said a few years back, though this is not word for word, or can I find a reference.
"Canadians have to many freedoms"
Needs to be removed from office and/or killed.
The end.
We have secretly replaced these Slashdot mods' sense of humor with a rusty nail. Let's see if they notice!!
Let us look to our brothers and sisters across the pond. Suffering from two attacks, have they cowered in fear, begging the government to take their rights?
We fought for independence from them over 200 years ago. Now, we're not fit to carry their collective jock straps. Instead, we flee in terror like herd animals, gladly trading our liberty for security.
In 200 years, history will not look favorably upon the cowardice of THIS American generation.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
The very ideals that this country USED to stand for, once upon a time, are long gone.
Things change. Times change. Motives change.
Loopholes are found in protections and are exploited by those who know how.
People (masses) are getting stupider and are kept in the dark about most things. Hell, I bet most don't even know that this is coming back up, and I bet most don't even know wtf the Patriot Act even is.
Either people start getting together and FORCE change, or... this country is gonna keep heading down the path it's on and will inevitably crumble.
We have secretly replaced these Slashdot mods' sense of humor with a rusty nail. Let's see if they notice!!
This is so 1984 !
Votez ecolo : Chiez dans l'urne !
Oh yeah, IT HASN'T. Unless your name is Habib and you wear a turbin to work then nobody gives a fvck what you do. I also know that if 9/11 occurred during the presidency of a Democrat you'd be STFUing right about now, you wouldn't even see 100000 crap articles like this on slashdot.
People named Habib who wear turbans to work deserve the same rights under the Constitution as those named Steve. By denying them that right, we are violating the fundamental principles of our society; of MY society. The laws and principles of MY country are being violated, and my fellow citizens (many of whom are named Habib) being denied their rights as citizens.
That anyone in DC even gives such a concept consideration is apauling and offensive.
As for a Democratic president, there were terrorist attacks under the last Democrat. The Bill of Rights was not violated under him the way it is being now. Instead, we had an impeachment hearing about a blow job.
You're right. Under a Democrat, we'd not be having this discussion. We'd be paying attention to a fake scandal cooked up by political hacks in order to cripple him. Welcome to Modern America.
--GrouchoMarx
Card-carrying member of the EFF, FSF, and ACLU. Are you?
Now if the detonators went off but the explosives didn't because of some fuck-up in converting metric units to Imperial... then maybe you could believe the U.S. was involved.
Mal-2
How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
How have I been negatively affected by it? You jackass. I've been affected by it because freedoms that I enjoyed my entire life have been stripped away from me.
I have been negatively affected by it by having the newfound knowledge that in our FREE country, in our FREE society, a nation built on the blood of men who gave their lives so that our ideals could exist that my inalienable rights are in fact alienable.
I have been negatively affected by it because the nation I have held in such high esteem for my entire life is now turning into a true to life cross between 1984, Farenheit 451, and Animal Farm.
Why would you try to turn this into some partisan "you're either with me or against me!" argument. We are talking about the ideals that this nation was founded on being eroded at a level not seen since the Red Scare. What possible reason would you have to willingly give up your freedom and strip it away from your fellow countrymen? Because you are a die hard conservative and that's what Rush Limbaugh tells you is the right thing to think? Because you are truly scared that if you don't give up that freedom a bomb will be set off on your daily commute? Because you truly believe in your heart that "it won't happen to me" so fuck the rest of them?
Stop thinking about you. Think about your parents. Your grandparents. Your children. Your grandchildren. Do you want freedom for any of them?
G. W. Bush or a bunch of right-wing wackos didn't turn America into a totalitarian state... that has been happening for 50 years, with the cheering support of the left.
It was the left who brought us the welfare state, which gave us a national ID system (they say Social Security numbers aren't part of a national ID system, but it IS a national ID in practice).
It was the left who supported massive government spending that could only be sustained through a government agency that tracks ALL your financial transactions, can request an financial record from any instutution you do buisness with without a judges permission, and can assume you are guilty of a crime until you are proven innocent.
It was the left who demanded that citizens be disarmed in violation of their constitutional rights.
It was the left (Wilson and Roosevelt), that built up our military for foriegn adventures, and who rounded up certain ethnic groups into prison camps (Good ol' FDR rounded up about 20,000 japanese).
It was the left who cheered on the police blowing up children in Waco Texas, and who demanded a whole slew of government programs to monitor "terrorist groups" (see, back then they expected the terrorist groups would be right-wing like OK City bomber, so it was OK to have a police state to go after THOSE criminals).
It was the left who pioneered the concept of "judicial activism" (i.e. Judges "creativly interpreting" the law in order to bring about desired political ends that doesn't have the support of the public to pass into law), which is now being used to attack abortion, or squelch protest.
It was the left that called for draconian police powers to be used against protesters (remember when it used to be right-wing anti-abortion protesters outside clinics who needed to be stoped? What, you didn't think all those laws restricting protest would be used against you!?)
Sure, Bush is a right-wing crazy. But if you are on the left, you have only yourself to blame for the situation. G. W. Bush isn't smart enough or talented enough or popular enough to have brought about some sort of drastic change in American policy since 9/11/2001. Our path to Facism has been paved by the polices and laws of left-wing socialists who have systematicly been disassembling our constitution and our freedoms for years, thinking that they were going to somehow be the benevolent dictators of a new state-run scoialist utopia to America.
Well, suprise suprise, things didn't turn out as you planned it, and now you are running and screaming like this is not somehow your fault.
If people want to be taken seriously opposing Bush , the Patriot Act, etc., etc., then you are going to have to take responsibility for what has happened. The left need to realize, and apologize, for giving all the tools to facism to G. W. Bush. Once people on the left accept their responsibility in this, then we can move on to worry about G. W. Bush.
Adolf Hitler and Hermann Göring arrived soon after, and when they were shown Van der Lubbe, a known Communist agitator, Göring immediately declared the fire was set by the Communists and had the party leaders arrested. Hitler took advantage of the situation to declare a state of emergency and encouraged aging president Paul von Hindenburg to sign the Reichstag Fire Decree, abolishing most of the human rights provisions of the 1919 Weimar Republic constitution.
I think this strangely appropriate. Ideologies, not countries, always seems to be the common threat under which liberties are stolen by states.
People said the same damn things about PATRIOT in the first place and about DMCA, etc.
This law should NEVER have been suggested, voted upon, etc. as it's completely in violation of the Constitution which gives the Government it's authority to pass laws in the first place.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Who wants to make a bet that they'll just keep on turning up the heat in this pot of water we're all sitting in? Er, what's that? It's already boiling?!
So let's jump out already. Seriously, we're being cooked alive.
I'm an outside observer, but I think if the shit hits the fan, the US military will be out in front. They know what honour is.
"A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing" - Alan Perlis
This is why libertarianism, or classical liberalism, is such a depressing philosophy. The more one understands about what is going on, the more depressing the situation is IMO.
/. Everyday it's something new (increasing the scope of eminent domain, the fact that what someone does in their backyard falls under the interstate commerce clause, etc).
,etc, but it seems I'm outnumbered, and no-one is listening.
More and more I get the desire to turn off the news and ignore fark and
I've tried writing my congressman, voting for people who understand the constitution
I'd move to Ron Paul's (R-Tx) district, because at least he knows what he is talking about, but my medical practice (naturopathy) is not yet liscensed in Tx. Oh well.
Dear Congressman Sodrel:
D =17920&c=206 and http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/07/21/attack/m ain564189.shtml (as well as many other places), The USA PATRIOT Act has been misused several times. This sort of reactionary bill passing is a disgrace to our country, and should not be tolerated.
I am appalled by your vote in favor of HR3199, "USA PATRIOT and Terrorism Prevention Reauthorization Act". As I am sure you are aware, and as can be found from http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?I
Respectfully,
[...]
How has YOUR LIFE been effected by the Patriot Act?? I don't want to hear your wild insane "Bush can knock down my door without a warrant" theories, I want to know how YOU have been negatively effected by the patriot act.
I'd tell you, but I'm locked away indefinately without access to lawyers or public hearings.
It makes me wonder how many people this would actually effect. I'm in my local library about three to four times a month. Whenever I'm in the library there are more employees than anything else. Most of the people at the library are using the public computer terminals. Public libraries are underfunded resources with mostly out of date information. They get little public support. Library funding is almost always the first cut. So why is it suddenly that everyone is up in arms over violation of their rights to use a public resource that they never use to begin with?
http://www.prisonplanet.com/011904wtc7.html
Check out the rest of the stuff on that site... pretty scarry.
I've been reading the comments to this article and I've seen a lot of US vs. , tin foil hattery, people for the patriot act, people against it.
The Patriot Act, and Canada's similar (but no where near as bad) Security Certificate Programme, give law enforcement officials the ability to imprision people indefinately without charge or proof or anything of the sort, so long as the government has deemed them a threat to national security.
There has been very few reported cases of these measures ever being used though. So it makes me wonder if the people who were indeed arrested are actuall threats. There are reasons why intelligence communities won't divulge any information. Even the slightest leak could be potentially dangerous and undermine a sensitive operation.
Now, a lot of people are saying that these new measures can be used against any anti government body, whether it be a terrorist, or just someone who is on the other side of the political spectrum. This idea is flawed. It's important to have the opposing political side. It is a risk to have it, but the gamble can pay out if you convince people that the other side is just stupid. We all see the left vs. right debates. The two sides NEED each other for power. They need to be able to show that they are better than the alternative. It's the way they control the mob.
So using the patriot act or anything else of the sort to eliminate opponents just wouldn't work out.
I still question certain government motives however. It's quite clear that north american governments are heavily influenced by corporations . The US turns a blind eye to the economy, Canada subsidizes bombardier and nortel and air canada with billions instead of investing into social programmes. The abuse of the freedom revoking laws would probally stem from such influences, and that worries me the most. Remember when the RIAA wanted to throw in anti piracy nonsense into the Patriot Act? It failed, but it's not the end.
If anything, it's corporate influence that has done more to revoke freedoms than terrorism....
I'm god, but it's a bit of a drag really...
The last century should have taught everyone is there is no limit at all to how bad it an get before it turns around. The worse it gets, the bloodier a price we have to pay to do it.
To those who say we have to balance security with our freedoms: we had more than enough info to break the 9/11 plot. The government doesn't need more powers, they need leaders that are more interested in getting terrorists than getting Saddam or kissing Saudi butt.
Play Command HQ online
How has YOUR LIFE been effected by the Patriot Act?? I don't want to hear your wild insane "Bush can knock down my door without a warrant" theories, I want to know how YOU have been negatively effected by the patriot act.
That's like saying you can't complain about a law allowing rape until your wife or daughter (or yourself) are raped.
That's like saying that most of what all oppressive dictatorships do is okay. After all, for mr. farmer in rural sudan or china (where i grew up) they're doing the same thing they'd be doing under any government, especially when it comes to "rights-limiting" laws.
And, tell me, why should anyone be treated any differently by the government because they wear a turbin to work?
So I won't even answer the question -- because if that becomes the standard then only the oppressed can complain while the rest of us must either live in ignorance or live in silence.
The sadest part is that this isn't an AC troll...
What comes first, finding a teacher or becoming a student?
The issue of Padilla (aka "Abdullah al-Muhajir")and the designation of enemy combatants has *nothing whatsoever* to do with the Patriot act.
Are Americans invading the UK with a hostile takeover in mind? No, so why do you think we are bothering you?
to say about this, because I would prefer not to wade through 500 posts about how my freedom is disappearing.
Wait, I'm on slashdot, never mind.
This is a great idea - but why limit this to the USA PATRIOT act?
Let's really get accountability back into the legislative process: If there are any murders or shopliftings in the next ten years, let's repeal murder and theft statutes and refund, say, 20 percent of tax revenues to the people!
Keep those sweet ideas coming!
Actually, those words were written by Goering's US Army "handler" who wrote them from memory in record what Goering said. They were not said at Nuremburg.
Picky pedantry while people rot in prison without trial or access to lawyers in the Land of the Free.
K.
The only question I really want answered is, "House of Representatives: Who the heck are you representing?" Because I don't believe that the majority of America, let alone 60% of us, want the government to be able to get search warrants without a judge's consent. To force us to keep quiet about a search. To invade the privacy of our medical and library records. I'd like to attempt to derail this topic and turn it into a vaguely related philosophical discussion.
Does the public know what's good for it? Large portions of it don't really know or care about politics, and yet they have voting rights. As much as it's maligned politics would appear to be vital to a country's survival. Many of the blacker ops the US has conducted over the years would have caused great public outcry, but the public is not in possession of nearly all of the facts and assuming that some genuinely were for the good of the country would fiercely oppose their best interests.
On the other hand, is the good of its country synonymous with the best interests of the public? And isn't decent politics that fabled mythical yet much-sought thing? Is there any chance of implementing it? Gah!
- Kizor, who doesn't know whether or not even he agrees with this
Hrmm... All duds you say? Patriot Extended now you say? What interesting timing between these two events.
Non sequitur: Your facts are uncoordinated.
I would tell you if I was legally allowed to. Get my damned point?
[ brakken ]
You can find a summary here: http://www.cbc.ca/passionateeye/powerofnightmares/ one.html
My favorite quote, that pretty much sums up the whole thing: "Senior American civil servants and politicians came to believe their view that the Soviet Union was an evil force against which the U.S. should be presented as a force for good."
The fools! - All Good Liberals (TM) know that the Soviet Union was a great force for Good in the world! 100 percent literacy and free healthcare! 100 percent literacy and free healthcare! 100 percent liter... erm, in any case what is interesting here is how little is new in the world.
While the "Liberals" (aka Socialists) used to carry water for the Soviets in the old days, now they have make do with the brave Mujahedeen. I guess whoever hates The Great Satan the most gets the loyalty of the Libs, no matter what... (Few things gets a Lib going as much as thinking about the poor, innocent Jihadis locked up at Gitmo.)
Benjamin Franklin:
Think about what that means. In order to, 'protect our freedom' our governments (I'm British, BTW) seem hell-bent on depriving us of the liberties they are supposedly trying to preserve.
Liberties like the right to go about your lawful business without hindrance by agencies of the state and the right not to be detained without recourse to due process or legal representation, are pretty much essential rights.
But when we live in a climate of fear, constantly stoked by those who have something to gain from it, the mob become ever easier to control and mainpulate; they will surrender to whatever measures will protect their security
Or will they? Only time will tell.
It's not you: I'm just this horrifically socially awkward with everybody.
3 hours later (maybe 4 for the 30kbs download) SCORE: BAJILLION, _INFORMATIVE_
you can have my violent video games when you pry them from my cold, dead hands.
Prime UID Club
Man, at first I hoped to find in your comment an illuminated quote from the Iliad or the Odyssey... then I remembered this was slashdot...
"Never leave people in peace, because when they are in peace, you are a nobody. They do not need you; your very purpose is not there. They need you when there is danger. Create danger. If there is no real danger, at least create the climate of a false danger."
--Adolf Hitler
What is most telling about this legislation is the timing. Politicians are extremely savvy about when the public is most willing to accept legislation they don't want. The London bombings provide the perfect event for getting Americans in the mood to accept this, and our politicians know it very well. They took advantage of 911 the same way to sell Americans (I was never sold) on the Iraq War. Of course later when then euphoria wears off and the hangover sets in, poll ratings begin to drop. But politicians don't care about poll ratings. They care about grabbing power. That's why we have checks and balances. But now that right-wingers own all 3 branches, checks and balances are playing second fiddle to the biggest power grab from the people since WWII.
Not sure about the Canadian law but the US PATRIOT ACT does not allow the "ability to imprision people indefinately without charge or proof or anything of the sort".
Also a part of the US PATRIOT ACT requires that certain provisions in it be reported when used and reported to congress on a regular basis, the reason that you don't hear about them is because they have not been used. The things that people bring up, library searchs, no-notify search and bug placing and others have already existed for other crimes. The US PATRIOT ACT just extended thier use into crimes that dealed with terrorism. Which is the reason police pushed for them.
I've been affected by it because freedoms that I enjoyed my entire life have been stripped away from me.
Name three.
Yeah. Keep telling yourself that. The reason there isn't political progress is precisely because the IRA weren't defeated, are still around, are still training and recruiting, still have weapons, and still make a fortune every year controlling much of the black economy in Ireland (north and south).
Certain youths all around Ireland, particularly in rural areas, still participate in activities akin to going off on boy scouts but a lot more serious and damn scarier.
The IRA are a very serious threat not just to peace in the North, but to the Republic. They style themselves "Oglaigh na hÉireann", that is the title used by our national army. They see themselves as the rightful army (and government on the political side) of all Ireland (Republic administration seen as illegitimate as the North).
Their political wing is not failing, rather than being beaten, they are the second party in Northern Ireland, and manage to poll about 10% or more in the Republic (that percentage is very high for an extremist Marxist party - it's damn scary - and no wonder our govt's ditched the soft approach since the Sinn Féin/IRA electoral successes).
Yeah. The IRA was beaten. HAH! They may have realised they aren't likely to acheive what they want by force alone, but they didn't stop fighting because they'd lost.
-- *~()____) This message will self-destruct in 5 seconds...
Come on lets update this for the modern age.
First they came for the people who did not wear helmet while on a motorcycle and no one protested.
Then they came for the smokers.
Then they came for the owners of gun and no one protested.
Then they came for the drivers of large vehicles and no one protested.
Then they came for me, and there was No One Left to protest.
... you do not talk about the PATRIOT ACT. The second rule of the PATRIOT ACT ... ... you DO NOT TALK about the PATRIOT ACT.
Third rule of the PATRIOT ACT ... ... if someone yells "Stop!", goes limp, taps out, he's a suspected terrorist.
Fourth rule, only two suspected terrorists to a cell.
Fifth rule, one terrorist at a time.
Sixth rule, no clothes if it helps with the interrogation.
Seventh rule, the war on terror will go on as long as it has to.
And the eighth and final rule, if you're arrested for the first time under the PATRIOT ACT, you're screwed.
where it probably most needs to be seen is where it isn't getting any significant play.
The american people are just not listening at the moment. Michael Moore's film was widely played and seen in plenty of time for the last election, and it made no difference at all.
If you were to play the (excellent) Power of Nightmares twice on NBC ABC and CBS not one mind would be changed in the US. They actually dont want to hear anything that contradicts their new religion.
The reality is that FOX is the perfect reflection of the american mentality, and the pulpit of this religion, and that evil fountain of poision is what the majority want to hear and what they want to believe.
No documentary will be able to break through this.
ATH0 Bitcoin: 1DnwFLXczVZV8kLJbMYoheUrpqHesjxrSi
Who would foolish enough to mark this as insightful?
Funny or fantasy yes, since it has basis in reality.
I heard the Nazi's also weren't fond of the Bubonic Plague. Stick it to the man! Plague-infested rodents for everyone!
Bullshit. States rights is an attempt to reduce the red tape in government by decentralizing it, on the theory that people who live somewhere and are actually familiar with the local conditions might (gasp! blasphemy!) be better suited to deal with local problems than the kind of useless career politicians that are requred for national government. The philosophy itself has little to do with specific local policies, though seeing the federal government royally screw up managing local matters is usually what motivates people to push the philosophy. Also, you're overstating the ACLU's role in our history. It did some important things, but it was far, far away from being solely responsible for any of your points, except perhaps the abortion one. (Not that anyone from the organization will admit as much... this is one of the reasons I tend to think they're a bunch of pretensious jerks. The other reason is that most of them actually are pretensious jerks.)
...it's really a sad day for America when we require a goddamn ACT OF CONGRESS to make our DVD players work properly. ~
"It is important for all of us who love freedom to understand that this is a war being fought against ideologues that use terror to advance an agenda. This is a war against killers, cold blooded killers, who embrace an ideology of hatred. Their vision of the world is the opposite of our vision of the world. " Quote from GW Bush after latest bombings Could equally come from bin Laden, speaking about the USA/UK. Enjoy your freedom chaps while you can, there's a hard wind coming.
Ouviram do Ipiranga às margens plácidas
de um povo heróico um brado retumbante
e o sol da Liberdade em raios fúlgidos
brilhou no céu da Pátria nesse instante.
Se o penhor dessa igualdade
conseguimos conquistar com braços fortes
em teu seio, ó Liberdade,
desafia o nosso peito à própria morte!
Ó Pátria amada, idolatrada, salve, salve...
It's been heard at the placid shores of the Ipiranga River
a thundering shout of a heroic people
and the sun of the Freedom in strong rays
shone in the sky of the Land in that instant.
If the distrain of this equality
we got to conquer with strong arms
in its heart, oh Freedom,
defies our chest to the death!
Oh beloved, idolized, Land, hooray!
It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
If Bush can get away... he can. ...our freedom is in more trouble... it is.
Americans themselves have to be accountable... I agree.
Re:Your sig.
Will slashdot ever drag itself into the year 2005 and provide the ability to edit posts? I hope not. Editing posts (even withdrawing them) makes extremely weird threads, where people edit what they say a lot. If you want to correct yourself, or withdraw some nonsense you just said, apologize for the record. It's far more mature than editing.
It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
I still think there are a few things missing.
First of all, the requirement of having a search warrant for certain cases is way too limiting and time consuming. By the time a court order has been issued, a terrorist conversation might already be over.
Secondly, most conspiracies and plans are most likely hatched in private houses or apartment buildings. Therefore, this law is half toothless unless we also grant the government the right to install surveilence equipment in apartments and houses, private as well as corporate.
And I hope to god they link all this information together and make patterns of non-terrorists, so that terrorists behavior will automatically cause an alarm to ring. This would give our enforcement agencies up to the minute ability to respond to any potential terrorists and quickly remove the threat from the streets.
As I said, there are still some bits missing before I feel completely safe. The government however has made a lot of progress so far as to ensure that I can sleep sound at night.
DrMrLordX: "Replace 'constituents' with 'campaign contributors' as you please."
mrmeval: "Replace republican with democrat as you please"
Replace "Republican" and "Democrat" with "politician" as you please.
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
Slavery was a convenient way to frame the debate on a moral standing (Iraqi Freedom anyone?) but the true issue was never slavery.
You better watch out, there may be dogs about . .
Not to be bitter, but Congressmen don't care about what individuals in their constituency think anymore. Every vote they cast on hot-button issues is tabulated by some special interest group. If you vote the right way, they will make your career. If you vote wrong, they will crucify you.
you can have my violent video games when you pry them from my cold, dead hands.
Prime UID Club
This is different from efficiency. . . this is about the liberation from a monolithic government (England) and the safeguards to prevent such a power from controlling too much in America.
To claim it's a an efficiency enhancer cheapens the original intent and purpose.
You better watch out, there may be dogs about . .
Just because something doesn't affect me doesn't mean it's ok. Your argument isn't valid. People are starving and dying in wars all over the world, but I'm sitting here in my cushy room typing on my computer. Their suffering will probably never reach me, but that doesn't mean it's ok. It's important to preserve freedoms, and even if the patriot act never affects me (why would the government care about some kid they're never heard of?), it still affects other people, and that matters.
"The only thing worse than war is the degraded moral state in which nothing is worth fighting for." ~Sam Clemens
...it's really a sad day for America when we require a goddamn ACT OF CONGRESS to make our DVD players work properly. ~
It was nice while it lasted.
cygnuhchur
The "Terrorists" exists because the goverment wants them. They are a really good excuse to increase power over their citizens. Without them their fascist agenda doesnt work. They could stop all of this years ago and didnt. They can still stop it and they will not do a thing. The more fear they instigate the more power the people give them.
What if you're on the left, but you haven't voting for the past 50 years? I know it was my duty as a citizen, but I sort of thought not being alive was a reasonable excuse.
So yeah--the American Socialist Party begat the neocon philosophy, which produced students who wrote policy for Reagan, Bush and Bush. If today's GOP wants to own up to being politically liberal and using religion as a smokescreen for a radical agenda that revolted mainstream conservative voters in '92, I'll sign anything you want. Get America's conservative party back on track and we'll talk. The compulsive liar, constitution-wrecking-zealot problem is slightly more immediate than the socialism / free enterprise paradigm.
you can have my violent video games when you pry them from my cold, dead hands.
Prime UID Club
Like the AC said, the modern states rights movment began with anti-abolitionist and rich guys who wanted to buy more legal favors. It picked up a lot of steam in opposition to the civil rights movment.
Here is a hint: very very very few government officials mean it when they talk about removing red tape, as that would mean reducing their power. They just want to do it locally when doing so is an exercise of their power, usually to aid a constituent, frequently to the detrement of the majority.
Now its interesting to consider real states rights, like the founders did. For example, you would probably remove the "enforcment" power of the FDA, and end the war on drugs, but you might keep the FDA's research and certification part. States
laws would usually say "Do what the FDA says or else!" but sometimes states would make exceptions, like making pot or abortion illegal/legal. Now the interstate commerce clause would piss conservatives off bigtime: states would not have the power to regulate people crossing boarders to get abortions/pot (just like in Europe). So almost anything reasonable would be effectively legal if you had the money to travel. Leftists see this as unfair, liberal "right" wingers like myself see it as a chance for evolution. Trust me, New Yorkers would be happy for all the homosexual living in some worthless town in Kansas to move to NYC, as they will be more economically productive than your average citizen of Kansas.
The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
...is apparently mistaken for truth.
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. " -Benjamin Franklin
Is freedom of movement an essential liberty? I'd say so. Yet I can't drive my car across the sidewalk, over your yard, or for that matter through your house. Oh wait, you must be one of those naive tools who traded away some of your Essential Liberty (to drive anywhere you want) in exchange for Temporary Safety (ie. not having you or your family driven over).
But hey, just keep repeating aphorisms, it's a pretty good disguise for real thought.
-Styopa
You're all right. This won't only be used on/against terrorists. Innocent people will be negatively affected by legislation such as this.
But holy shit -- what did you expect? People do have too much freedom. Every day, countless innocent people die because somebody else didn't have enough judgement to know where their own liberties stop and the rights of others begin.
Driving irresponsibly, driving under the influence of alcohol/drugs, gang violence in neighborhoods, terrorism, etc. -- right now, society basically tolerates these things.
Of course, you could argue that the PATRIOT act is poorly written and won't actually do anything to help. (That's probably true, but that's an implementation issue and not a theoretical issue.) No one should really be surprised that it exists.
Call me crazy, but I don't ever remeber Congress ever giving a "Declaration Of War". They had to get one for WWI, WWII... Technically this -IS- a World War - a World War on Terrorists right? So why has there been no declaration of war? Oh wait, you have to declare war on a country/countries not a "group". Ok whatever!
I seem to remember it was "Government of the people, by the people, for the people"
Nowadays it's "Government of the Govenment, by the Government, for the Goverment."
The Truth is a Virus!!!
Amen, reverend. This useless money sink, too, shall go the way of the Dodo, right alongside that damned social security and no child left behind nonsense.
...it's really a sad day for America when we require a goddamn ACT OF CONGRESS to make our DVD players work properly. ~
You obviously live a life of perfectly sheltered normalcy.
The part about invading privacy without being told is that they can then ACT on it for whatever reason they deem fit.
Have porn on your computer that is deemed illegal in your area when they happen to do a sweep? *WHACK* In you go.
Been to any websites that the government says are fringe? Wow - you're on their 'watchlist' now.
Live a lifestyle that the government doesn't approve of (bdsm, polyamory, etc)? Get ready to have a living hell for a life.
So while YOU may not have anything to hide, and none of the rest of us have anything we're ashamed of either as we live our lives as consenting adults - the fact of the matter is that if the government doesn't like what they see when they go snooping around without your consent, your life can become a living hell.
All things considered and put aside for a moment, it could be said that one act of terror against the US has cuased it to surrender, at least in the eyes of the terrorists. Their goals are now achieved are they not?
Considering the relative power of the US its famously patriotic populace, this seems like an unusually easy win for the evil. The question is, considering once again the considerations I asked we we put aside, what and who is the greater evil? The overt evil? Or is it the evil that would use the tragic deaths of patriots to achieve a personal end.
Shit. Well this man is moving to Africa. It's been nice knowing you guys in America. I'll have an internet connection there but no taxes, the ability to fight for my life with a gun, etc... My fortress will be well made.
My sig is as boring as you...
I don't like the current Republican platform. However, I won't compare the current party to the 1860's Republicans. Parties change over time. What really concerns me is that the current Republican party is being run by people that started their political career in the 1960's and 1970's. This was a time when the Republican party ran pro-segregation as a wedge issue in the south. The Northern Democrats did the the right thing which was to abolish segregation. The Republicans saw it as an opportunity to gain a foothold in the South. Not suprisingly the South which was once solid Democrat now votes Republican.
Politcs is a dirty game. All sides have their problems. However, I find it very hard to support a party which is led by people that did not have an issue with segregation and the civil situation of minorities when they started their political careers in the 1960's and 1970's. A northern Republican may have an excuse as they may not have seen the real problems in the south. Any Southern Republican that is in power now has no excuse as they saw the affects of racism and segregation first hand. I would question any Southern Republicans morals and ask them why they chose the Republican party during the civil rights movement.
And my subject is Depressing +5.
(On a completely related note, my confirmation script says "cracker")
So, if marrying an Egyptian makes him a terrorist, would marrying a Southerner make me a racist retard with a love of white bedsheets?
perhaps that can serve as a pithy one liner come back.
A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order will lose both, and deserve neither" Thomas Jefferson Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny. Thomas Jefferson Jefferson ruled.
I never spellcheck and I freely admit it. Save your karma for more worthwhile "lol erorrs" replies
I believe it is in the interest of the world that a truly free state develop. I know it is in the interest of the Palestinian people that they can live in a society where they can express their opinion freely, a society where they can educate their children without hate, a society in which they can realize their dreams if they happen to be an entrepreneur. I know it's in Israel's interest that a free state evolve on her border. There's no other way to have a lasting peace, in my judgment, unless we all work to help develop the institutions necessary for a state to emerge: civil society, based upon justice, free speech, free elections, the right for people to express themselves freely.
Yes, freedom is a great idea for other people, isn't it?
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
OMG I *can't* _believe_ -this-, it's _so_ *WONDERFUL. I AM A HAPPY AND FULFILLED CITIZEN. MOVE ALONG.
t uvwxyz
abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
abcdefghijklmnopqrs
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
So, in 1980 when Reagan kicked off his general election presidential campaign at the Neshoba County Fair in Philadelphia MI, the annual gathering that was famous for its diatribes by segregationist politicians and the site of the infamous 1964 'Mississippi Burning' murders of three civil rights activists, he was just advocating decentralization? When Reagan stood up and said "I believe in states' rights," he wasn't passing a coded message to American's who resented the Civil Rights Act? Do you honestly think Reagan was advocating decentralization a la G. K. Chesterton?
I have always thought : "If I haven't done anything wrong, leave me the F*CK alone!"
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
A version I ran across yesterday:
Knock, knock!
Who's there?
Under the terms of the Patriot Act, I don't have to tell you.
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
Seems that the last bastion of freedom and privacy is the Great White North.
Yeah, right.
I for one am glad that the government has access to medical records, in the name of fighting terrorism. We all know how important those medical records are, and damn that doctor-patient confidentiality--this is national security! If the government says it needs to know about my hemorrhoids, psoriasis and ingrown toenail, then let it!
Of course, we're still living with the Yellow Elevated threat level.
With these new found protections, the feds should find it easier to go after those anti-freedom bastards running those terrorist networks called Bit Torrent and Freenet.
Good Hunting.
When George Bush starts his 3rd term in office, for the good of the people of course...
Don't be silly they will never ration gas. Gas consumption must increase, profits for oil companies are way to important to this administration.
Mayby you could get a pass that lets skip the anal probe when boarding public transportation.
"The last thing I want to do is deal with a bunch of people who want something."
Major Major
Those who would sacrifice Liberty for Security deserve neither!
Oh well, I wasn't using my civil liberties anyway...
well, at least they had some debate about it, it seeems, unlike the first time in which only 1 rep stood against it... too bad it has been extended though.
Some info to hide:
social security number
mobile phone number
credit card numbers
home address
bank account numbers
medical information
private communications with family, coworkers,...
Not from:
law-abiding law enforcement officials for valid reasons related to protecting our country
But from:
corrupt politicians and their strategists
data and identity thieves
people that might sell the info to anyone who pays
If a intelligence officer's role is publicized in order to punish her husband, how much respect would average American citizens get regarding their privacy? If we post a blog message a politician doesn't like, would all our info published anonymously on the internet?
Access to private information of innocent Americans should be justified and there needs to be procedures in place to prevent abuse. If it cannot be justified, then the citizen should be notified so that they can take appropriate legal action against any abuse or misuse of their private information.
An impeachment hearing about perjury, where the perjurous testimony involved him getting a blowjob. Not exactly, say, outing a CIA agent, for example (though we know Clinton got a hummer, we're not really, truly 100% sure about the outing. Or Vince Foster, for that matter).
Anyway, Clinton at least tried to get congress to do something about North Korea, and then had to give up because the R congress blocked him at every turn. The lack of policy with N Korea, thanks to the total clusterfuck that Iraq has become , has effectively allowed them to get into the nuclear brotherhood. And don't talk to me about Iraq and terrorism in the same sentense - we invaded Afghanistan over terrorism. and don't bring oil into the picture - there are enough oil fields in the world, and "experts" tell us we're unlikely to run out any time soon - Iraq is a small player in the oil market. We invaded Iraq over a sense of revenge ("Don't worry dad, I'll got him for you"), ti just tooka couple of years to figure out a good excuse.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
The discussion of Jose Padilla illustrates the blantant disregard the executive branch has for civil liberties and demonstrates that, yes, even in 2004 under the leadership of St. Bush, we still need strong government checks and balances. Jose Padilla demonstrates to the naive that we still cannot trust the government. Hence, we need to give extra scrutiny to provisions in the Patriot Act that expand the power of the executive branch.
The House always passes it. It's packed with repubicans.
The Senate will carve it up.
The worst thing I've heard is that the fed can request your library records. What the screaming meemies don't often tell you is that a judge's warrent is required.
This applies for citizens of course. Non-citizens and resisdent aliens are screwed.
Reminds me of this scene from Matt Bracken's novel Enemies Foreign and Domestic , which is a fictional account of how that line-of-thinking would actually work in practice. It's not much of a spoiler to say that the novel is about a terrorist incident staged by government agents so they can expand their powers (since that's obvious in the first chapter). The following scene takes place at an anti-terrorist checkpoint on the highway:
>Says the people whose job it is to know. What possible gain would there be to imprison him for no reason at all?
It's the "He's a bad person because bad people are in jail!" argument. If he's guilty of a crime, try him already!
>However, I don't automatically distrust the government either, which woul be just as stupid.
The government lies about everything. The only safe way to deal with it is to assume lies unless they present some evidence to back up what they are saying. It's supposed to be the very foundation of our legal system - that the government is wrong about someone committing a crime until the prove otherwise in open court.
-- Give me ambiguity or give me something else!
Don't you find Bush's little joke much more humorous now?
//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
At least you get the Flamebait mods you deserve, loser.
Together, we will drive the rats from the tundra.
The states rights movement is an attempt to give businesses the ability to use jobs and taxes as a bludgeon against state governments.
[Set Cain on fire and steal his lute.]
States' rights means not allowing the federal government to pass laws that exceed its authority. The recent Gonzales v. Raich is a great example. The black-robed tyrants have told us that 'interstate commerce' includes home-grown marijuana for personal use which will not be sold and is done so under the laws of California with a doctor's prescription. Now, 'interstate commerce' is almost always the excuse the federal government uses to justify about any law they want, including our federal drug laws. SCOTUS didn't have the balls to do its job and stand up for the Constitution because it would overturn so much of the DEA's power. States rights is what the Constitution used to have a lot of interest in, but the SCOTUS has slowly erased the 10th amendment from relevance.
You damned jackass. It's the conservatives who are PASSING this shit, and the liberals who are fighting it! Hell-fucking-o, you do realize that conservatives control 2.5/3 branches of gov't, right?
When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.
And the Patriot Act is how we address the problem.
The enemies of Democracy are
Quote: "Oh yeah, IT HASN'T. Unless your name is Habib and you wear a turbin to work then nobody gives a fvck what you do. I also know that if 9/11 occurred during the presidency of a Democrat you'd be STFUing right about now, you wouldn't even see 100000 crap articles like this on slashdot."
I don't mean to be a party pooper, but last time I checked. Most Muslim men don't wear a turbin. Nor have I met many (any?) muslim Habibs.
So, my question: Why is NON-Muslim, Turbin wearing Habib getting shit for his culture? He pays taxes too. Probably works his ass off every day to live HIS American dream. So, we are paying for harasment?
Why can I not take a stand to change something that I [don't] believe in? I am tired of hearing people say: "If you don't like it. LEAVE!" and "How does this affect you?" Well, I feel that it is MY patriotic duty to stand for what I beleive in. To change those things that are not right in my eyes. I believe that it VERY PATRIOTIC to make this country something I am proud of and would want to leave for my children. Right now I don't have any children. I am not sure that I am going to have children to let this world brain wash and abuse.
Now I hear you saying: "I believe in what I say." I have no doubt that you do. You have a right to that. At least for the time being. We don't have to agree on everything all the time. Your partisan bullshit is what iritates me. I don't take a stand on either the Red or the Blue side. I feel that I can take each issue for what it is. Not where does my party stand? I will stand with them. I feel that I have my own mind to decide.
Bottom line: I am paying for it. WE are paying for it. I can't justify paying money for less. I thought that was one of those American things? More bang for the buck! Every day I feel like I have a little less bang.
Are there any Free alternatives to the U.S.? Canada seems out of the picture, since they apparently put people in jail for speaking against sexual perversions. US has this stupid Patriot Act and Copyright Law junk, not to mention allowing murder for mere trespassing.
Luke-Jr
it is best to have a small group of ppl who are trained in terrorism dealings as well as covertness. CIA and NSA have been the right groups. The patriot act basically gave the DOJ the ability to use CIA/NSA resources to track down anything that they want in the name of terrorism. well, the DOJ is dominatly concerned with local criminals. In addition, it is easy for the admin to control this branch. The practical side of this, is that the DOJ can now do anything that they want in the name of terrorism. For those republican types, it means that future clintons will be able do to you exactly what the bush admin is doing to us today. For the domocrats out there, it means that future GWB's will do to us exactly what GWB is doing. And for those that did not understand the last 2 sentences, Google for Sibel Edmunds/ Karl Rove/ the american in Gitmo who is being held illegally/ the american invasion of iraq/ our current deficit/....
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Canada seems out of the picture, since they apparently put people in jail for speaking against sexual perversions.
Example/Source?
Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings?
Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship. A ruthless minority of people seems to have forgotten certain good old-fashioned virtues. They just can't stand seeing the other fellow win. If these people would just play the game -
Helpmann: - they'd get a lot more out of life.
Interviewer: Nevertheless, Mr. Helpmann, there are those who maintain that the Ministry of Information has become too large and unwieldy...And the cost of it all, Deputy Minister? Seven percent of the gross national product.
Helpmann: I understand this concern on behalf of the tax payers. People want value for money. That's why we always insist on the principle of Information Retrieval charges. It's absolutely right and fair that those found guilty should pay for their periods of detention and for the Information Retrieval Procedures used in their interrogation.
Interviewer: Do you believe that the government is winning the battle against terrorists?
Helpmann: Oh, yes. Our morale is much higher than theirs. We're fielding all their strokes, running a lot of them out, and pretty consistently knocking them for six. I'd say they're nearly out of the game.
Helpmann: Why should decent law-abiding citizens have to subsidize criminals?
Interviewer: But Mr. Helpmann, the bombing campaign is now in its thirteenth year.
Helpmann: Beginner's luck.
"Uhm, I do assure you, Mrs. Buttle, the Ministry is very scrupulous about following up and eradicating any error. But if you do have any complaints you wish to make, I'd be, well, only too happy to send you the appropriate forms."
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
'.. in the wake of 4 dud bombings ..' ..the act was extended.
... Surely these terrorists are not that unsophisticated in their bombing technology!!! It does not pass the sniff test .. Let us review previous incidents of falsification of circumstances by this dishonest administration!!! WMD's ?? Uranium deals in Africa? ..
right. Something so obviously wrong here: Were I a fed, i would arrange an incident that would gaurantee passage of the act's extension.. and what better way than to stage a bombing that killed nobody.. a 'dud' bombing
Of course we can count on the press to investigate this, right? Dont hold your breath!
"There are 11 kinds of people: those who know binary, those who don't, and those who could not care less!"
The funny thing was that it was originally states in the north who ensured that the constitution allowed the secession of states from the union.
Luke-Jr
Our gov. understands freedoms and rights all to well. Who does not, is the pandered american who believes in the rhetoric. Good examples
I will lower taxes, increase the military, and balance the budget. From the man who overall increased taxes (but started the shift from the wealthy to the middle class), increased military spending (but most of the developed weapons systems have since been discarded or have seen major problems), and his budget set records that have only been beaten by the current admin.
GWB spoke of balancing the budget (like all republicans do), but his actions were like reagan's rather than his fathers (did not balance, but at least started the process).
It is sad that so few Americans understand what so many non-Americans have had to live. That is absolute power corrupts absolutely.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
It's not unpatriotic to want to keep the freedoms that where fought for so long ago.
I've been accused of "hating America" by the local neoconservative here in the office. What he and others like him just don't get, is that wanting America to remain free is not hating America. You don't have to put up with an overbearing police state to be 'safe'. The same tired old arguments get dredged up again and again... our founding fathers blah blah... good christian values. He misses the irony is saying that they wanted a strong christian government. Seems to me that they had seen just how poorly that worked and were fighting to get away from that.
The old saying is true, those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it.
I am not in anyway affiliated with Max Cannon
Who read:
U.S. House Votes to Extend Parannoid Act?
How fortunate for leaders that men do not think.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Hah. Didn't even realize. I just typed what the GP had typed. I meant turban, of course.
A turbine would indeed be interesting...
What comes first, finding a teacher or becoming a student?
That being said, if it really comes down to that, then it does, and action of that sort will have to be taken.
As an aside (and response to GP), there is a significant number of trained soldiers in the civilian populace (I am one), so lack of training for such a thing would not be so much of an issue. Military-grade weapons, while not available to the civilians at first, can be appropriated with time.
"Teleporting Rodents with D-Cell Battery Displacement" theory -- IgnoramusMaximus (692000)
Did you just claim that it's Bill Clinton's fault that Republicans voted the devil into office?
Priceless!
Democrats voted against this extension by a very large margin, yet you seem to be way more angry at them than at the party that actually managed to push this through.
States rights is an attempt to reduce the red tape in government by decentralizing it
Ha! I invite you to come on down to New Jersey, where each municipality gets to write their own zoning and planning laws. Yeah, it sounds great.. the local people get to decide what they want their town to be, blah blah.
In reality, it means there are 600+ different sets of regulations that can vary wildly. And this is just New Jersey. Multiply that across 50 states. You haven't reduced ANY red tape.
Furthermore, especially in North Jersey the municipalities are so small that a town may not actually have control over their own town! If, for instance, the neighboring towns don't want to limit development, but a main throughfare passes through the town, they're going to have the increased traffic from the development of the surrounding towns, despite the fact that they have limited development in their own town specifically to avoid this.
I'm not saying local rule should be eliminated. I'm saying that it is not the panacea that it's made out to be. Centralized government avoids these games that municipalities and states play against each other. Take tax breaks.. after 9/11, Citibank was going to move their HQ out of NYC (not due to 9/11.. it was just the timing). To combat this, Bloomberg gave them massive tax breaks. So, the residents of NJ or CT or elsewhere are hurt because Citibank doesn't move (as might have happened with a freer market). The residents of NYC are hurt because not only are they losing the tax revenue (which they would have lost anyway if Citibank left), but they keep the burden of Citibank on their infrastructure! It's a Lose/Lose/Lose situation. Except for Citibank, of course. Some people speculate that Citibank was never going to move and that they hinted at it just to get the tax breaks from the city.
Terrorists win by undermining the people's confidence in their governments, in an effort to get them to change their policies.
Well, guess what! My confidence in my government has gone down MARKEDLY since they have decided to implement "protective" policies that fuck me out of my Constitutional freedoms. Like that whole right to a trial thing! And no unreasonable search and siezure! So who is winning here!
That's right...the terrorists ARE winning here. Why? Because our government is too stupid to realize that the ONLY proper response to terrorism is dignity, and unity! Instead, they have chosen to follow their inborn political instinct to steal more freedom from their sheeple.
So now Australia is a copycat police state...how pathetic
insecurity asks the wrong question irritation gives the wrong answer
Considering the timing of the London bombing, just before the "PATRIOT ACT" would expire, the question needs to be asked... Just how far will those with power go, in order to keep that power?
Nothing to see here. Move along.
This is also what comes to my mind when I hear people trying to bash Republicans whenever they do something contradictory to state's rights.
However, many Republicans would like to return to the day when states could pass their own laws banning abortion, etc(which was the way it was prior to Roe vs Wade). They aren't ALWAYS against state's rights.
Also, as many other respondants have noted, the Democrats can also have rather arbitrary support for state's rights in their own special way. Neither major party really supports state's rights consistantly.
You are correct. "Tax and spend" doesn't really cover the current Republican party. At the very least taxing to raise revenue first instead of putting off revenue generation off until that debt has had time to accrue interest would be too fiscally responsible to describe the current government.
I prefer, "Charge it!" over "Tax and Spend."
The GOP is acting a lot like an irresponsible teenager with a credit card. They're piling up debt recklessly without regards for the future. The only difference is that a teenager can't rewrite the law so that someone else will have to pick up their share of the debt when they're done like the Republican leadership is doing to the middle class by slashing taxes for the rich. That money's going to come from somewhere, and the Republican politicians and their friends are dedicated to making sure that it isn't them all while feeding at the trough of taxpayers money.
Party of small government, my ass...
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
I'd phrase the US gov involvement issue with the same cautious consideration.
:)
But if i had to point out which issue is most in need of extra caution, I'd point to the clustering of answers surrounding 9/11 and answers about the aftermath.
- the white house was involved in 9/11 and PATRIOT act is bad.
- White house was not involved in 9/11 and PATRIOT act is acceptable.
- the white house is not explicitly targeting civil liberties and PATRIOT act is acceptable.
- the white house was not involved in 9/11 and they did not use the event to restrict civil liberties and to invade the middle east.
and, well, lots more. The white house lied itself into war, and they went to war for no good reason. The analyst Sam Gardiner approves of Bush's war. Stinnett thought Roosevelt did right.
Now don't jump to conclusions about my conclusions
Just searching around for info on this quickly led to what sounds like a much larger case that went absolutly the other way. Possibly the article you quoted is being somewhat selective, it did quickly mention that the defendant did not show up in court, which hurt his case:
Trinity Western University
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Trinity Western University is a private Christian liberal arts and sciences university located in Langley, British Columbia, Canada, enrolling approximately 2,850 students.
Most notable about the school is its requirement that all students sign an agreement that prohibits, among other things, premarital sex, and homosexual behaviour.
In 1995, TWU attempted to certify students going through its teaching program, but the British Columbia College of Teachers denied accreditation of TWU's program, arguing that the agreement students must sign is discriminatory and that those graduating from Trinity Western's program might discriminate against gay students. The lower courts in British Columbia and, later, the Supreme Court of Canada, ruled in favour of Trinity Western, stating that there was no basis for the BCCT's decision.
Please, you have done nothing but engage in ad-hominem attacks for this entire thread. You have called anyone who disagrees with you childish, an idiot, or worse. You play the game of excusing the behavior of one party by comparing it to the behavior of the other, as if two wrongs somehow make a right.
The only people you are going to impress with those kind of arguments are small minded, bigoted idiots who have already made up their minds anyway. Preaching to the choir may be fun, and yes I'll admit I do it to, even up to and including the things I have accused you of, but not for EVERY SINGLE POST IN A THREAD, for crying out loud! Here's an idea: try making at least one rational, well reasoned post per thread.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
right to due process
US PATRIOT ACT does not have anything dealing with lower that. If anything it requires more levels protection because it requires the recording and tracking of various police actions.
right to a fair trial
An other that the US PATROIT ACT does not have anything about.
freedom of speech
I am guessing you are talking about how if you are servered with an order from a judge for a search of record you control and the judge added the provision you cannot talk about it you are upset that you cannot call up the suspect and legally sell the information to them for a defined and resonable amount of time?
This type of provision existed before the US PATRIOT ACT, during the 90s it was added to other crimes and the US PATRIOT ACT it was added to a few more. So it is hardly a right you have had all your life.
I think you're mistaken? I was just replying to first guy. He asked how the Patriot Act affected us, and assumed that because it didn't it was just fine. I'm not talking about politcal bias here, I was just saying his arguement was invalid.
"The Patriot Act can never, under any circumstances, supercede the Constitution of these United States."
Sure it can. You just have to stack the court (supreme court) with people who will authorize just such actions.
Who will guard the guards?
The reason why we are in Afghanistan is not because of Pakistan, but because it provides a cameleon double view towards India and China. Taking the high-ground in any strategy battle is an advantage.
Just to be clear, I don't "support violence" in the sense that I consider violence the first choice. I very much want to see our country restored to a state where we can consider ourselves the most free nation in the world, and I very much hope it can happen without any violence. Myself, I would hate to have another man's blood on my hands, for any reason.
However, that said... I am not against using violence if it comes to the point that there is no other option. But clearly, any sort of violent revolution should be the last resort. For now I still hold out some small hope that by voting and campaigning and doing all those things, we can effect some positive change. But that hope keeps growing weaker as I see the shit happening around us.
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