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How Warcraft Really Does Wreck Lives
An anonymous reader writes "There's a great blog post about how World of Warcraft can ruin lives, it's written by a person that was for a long time a member of the largest council on what is now one of the oldest guilds in the world." This is a story that is very familiar to a lot of folks. I know people who are actively wrecking their lives and risking their jobs by playing too much of a video game.
LFG for WoW Addicts Anonymous, PST
"The Burning Crusade expansion for WoW is coming, so named because of how the game devours human lives, leaving them a smoldering ruin." ~ Tycho
a member of the largest council on what is now one of the oldest guilds in the world.
Surely if it is now one of the oldest guilds in the world, it has always been one of the oldest guilds in the world?
There are shills on slashdot. Apparently, I'm one of them.
...without having to deal with ninja looters, the increasing lowered exchange rate of WoW gold to US$, and PvP n00bs...
Learn to know, the dark side of the force, and you will achieve a power greater than any Jedi...the power to save your w
It is the setup of the game. It really cannot be enjoyed in short bursts like most games can. You need to finish an hour long dungeon to get any rewards out of playing. Most other games you can drop in for a few 5 to 15 minute rounds. Then again it also speaks out for the woeful lack of discipline many people have... myself included. However i have yet to let it hurt my grades. Must get that glove... beastlakers... .>
You mad
Mom....bathroom
I don't have time to wreck my life...I've got a raid schedule to keep.
There's this married woman I really like. Do you guys think I'd have a chance with her if I introduced her husband to WoW so that he'd get hooked and not perform important functions like working and another I don't need to remind you of? I haven't played it myself so I'm not sure how effective this would be.
Apology to Ubuntu forum.
Games do not wreck people's lives. People wreck their own lives.
Some people gamble, some people cheat on their spouses. Some other people do drugs, and others drink too much. Some people are slackers, some people are workaholics. And yes, some people play video games too much.
Whichever way you look at it, people have a choice. They can stay grounded in reality with minor diversions into fantasy-land (whatever form that fantasy may take) and keep their lives balanced, or they can throw their lives away. Saying that World of Warcraft, The Jerry Springer Show or The Devil made you do it is a cop out.
Heard this kind of nonsense 25 years ago about other games (e.g. dungeons and dragons). The truth is some people have problems between their ears. The problem isn't WarCraft or any other game.
People wreck their own lives.
Anything can, could, and will happen.
I know people who are actively wrecking their lives and risking their jobs by playing to much of a video game.
Translation: "Zonk, stop fragging Master Chief and get back to work!"
We recently had heard in the office over one of the Yellow Machine that's made by Anthology Solutions.
Nothing new here, nothing at all...
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Warcraft or other diversions do not wreck lives. Stupidity coupled with a total lack of self control wrecks lives. Take responsibility for your own life or suffer the consequences.
Didn't need a report to tell me that...
My former roommate once asked me: "Have you experienced World of Warcraft?"
I replied: "No, I don't do drugs."
News Flash: Too much of anything is bad for you.
Stories effectively identical to the post came out when EverQuest was the big thing, came out when MUDS/MUSHES were the big thing, and have probably come out for every liesure activity developed in the history of man.
The only thing surprising about this is that it continues to surprise people when it happens. If you let your life get consumed, guess what, it gets consumed!
It's a sad state of affairs when a video game is more appealing than real life. It says something about their lives and about how there's not much interesting out there for these people.
DISCLAIMER: This post was not checked for speling and grammar- if you complain- you're a whiner
I got involved in MMORPGs before and it had a rather negative effect on my life. Luckily I was in college so I wasn't expected to be productive =) The first thing that cought my eye was:
70+ days "/played," and one "real" year later...
Heh, ouch. I remember how many people such as myself would refuse to every type that command because it was too scary to think about. I think when you reach that point it might be a good indicator to pull away.
Any kind of Obsessive behaviour is going to have negative results. It doesn't matter if you play online games, or watch TV for 20 hours a day.. html
Does the same apply if you play nintendo all day?
http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/gateway_addiction
Maybe downloading too much music would do the same?
- F1 NEWS
You can read a lot more stories like that one at the EverQuest Daily Grind. Anytime I feel like I'm getting sucked into gaming too much, to the exclusion of my family or friends, I read a few stories there and get scared straight again.
It's spelled "grammar."
How about, how Golf or Football or Fishing or Hunting or etc ruin lives. People who have addictive personalities will find endeavors to fill that role. Whether it is shopping, collecting beer cans, or spending 20K a year on golf. It's not Warcraft that is the problem. Didn't RTFA...
"How do you kill that which has no life?..."
"All great things are simple & expressed in a single word: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope." --Churchill
He played for 70 days out of a year. That's "only" 19.something percent. If you're the sort to only need 4 or 5 hours sleep a night you could easily fit that in beside a pretty normal life (9 - 5 job, a light social life, chores, etc). If giving 1/5th of your day over to a hobby is a sign that your life has been devoured then you need to sort out your priorities. Everyone should dedicate that much time at least to stuff they enjoy. Perhaps it's a bit narrowminded to concentrate on a single activity, but it's better than spending all that time at the office or wasted in a bar*.
* Ok, maybe the bar is ok..
http://twitter.com/onion2k
I read this yesterday I think and by now stretch was THIS guy's life wrecked. He put on a bit of weight, stopped some of his other hobbies and wasn't in touch with his friends as much. He met his current girlfriend in the game so lets put this in perspective. By some measures he's done okay.
It doesn't matter the drug.
The human race has a problem with addiction. Whether it's smoking, drugs, alcohol, food, sex, tv, sports, power, money or video games. It's nothing new. There is no real difference between the story of a drug addicts downard spiral or an severely addicted MMORPG player. We were created with the need to place something as the most important thing in our life and whatever material things we choose to fill that hole with can be very destructive.
Chock this one up for the list of current Addictions. Any type of obsessive behavior is bad. That's why they say, "Everything in moderation." If WoW is going to be your hobby then fine, but you reap what you sow. Why is it that Americans are addicted to anything? If all of a sudden blank, white 8x11 paper became a fad, someone would be addicted to it, a psychiatrist would blame it on a Catholic Priest, and then there would be all of these self-help books on "8x11 White Paper and How to Stop".
Here is the difference:
WoW is the most popular MMO as of yet. Alot of people who would normaly not be tempted into these bad behaviors now are simply b/c it is easy to get into, and there are always friends who want you to come play with em.
Now, I am not saying this is WoW's fault, I am simply saying WHY it is so prevelant, it is just that more poeple are playing. Admitedly WoW's game curve is also an addition to the problem that people face. The low levels have alot of rewards that can be gotten relatively quickly. However as you advance it takes longer and longer to get rewards, but it is nice and gradual, so you get ussed to thinking, well, just another 10 mins to finish this quest, well half and hr will let me finish this instance, well I can run this instance in an hr then spend some time crafting, etc etc etc.
btw, refferencing D&D in this is the wrong game, D&D was never said to be something that will ruin your life (unless hanging out with 5 other people on someone's house once or twice a week is a ruin...).
Do Or Do Not, There Is No Spoon, There Is Only Zuul. Everything in the above post is probably opinion.
That is a good post. Basically sums up WoW for a lot of the "hardcore raider" types.
MMORPG's are like being on a treadmill with someone dangling a treat in front of you. Every once in a while you might get a taste, but they will never let you have it because as long as you want what you can't have (perhaps the feeling of 'winning'?) you will keep paying 15 bucks a month to get closer and closer to and end that keeps drifting further away.
Blizzard has made what is arguably the most addictive MMO ever appealing to human nature's greed, and the need to feel accomplished.
Up until last month I was one of those types too. I played WoW EVERY night and every free moment. I would be lying if I said I did not enjoy it.
But a few things intersecting caused me to take a step back.
First was the alpha for the expansion. After a week of playing that I realized all the godly best-on-the-server epic gear my priest had would soon be shit since at level 70 (in some cases earlier) I would get gear at or better than the current gear I had. This basically meant when the expansion came out not only would I have to "grind" out 10 more levels, but from a gear standpoint it would be like re-starting the game.
Secondly, I enrolled in a couple of classes and had some family stuff come up. Between the alpha making me concerned, and real life keeping me busy several nights a week, I have gotten to the point where I do not even feel like logging in most of the time.
Logging in means raiding. Raiding means farming for consumables etc. Farming means work.
It's at this point you begin to realize WoW is like a second job - but one you pay to work at.
QQ more nub.
Any guesses as to what this man's guild is? I'm thinking Ascent from Medivh (can't remember where they moved to).
Finder of the any key.
Counless numbers of Night Elves, Tauren, Dwarves, Undead (well, not the Undead - how can you kill that which has no life?) and other races of Azeroth are being slaughtered just to satisfy the blood lust of gamers!
This must end!
You live the life you choose.
You only "wreck" it by others opinions, or your own regret over making the wrong choice.
Living your life in a barely concious drug induced haze, or with a dedicated life of praying and worship, driven career oriented, or family focused. Deciding if these are wrecked is just a matter of opinion.
Each of these caricatures may think the others are the ones missing out and wrecking their lives.
If you want to spend your life playing warcraft, go ahead, just don't blame me or the game, or society for your decision.
Wow, like IRC (and a lot of the rest of the internet) is not just destructive. It *can* be a handy sandbox that prepares people for real life.
I played WoW for about a year, running a major guild. What did I learn?
That I'm good at self depreciating humour.
That I can get people to follow me by being the first one to stand up and provide direction.
That leading people is more about knowing where you are going than how you are going to get there.
How to negotiate peace between two people who have genuinely lost sight of what's important.
Which of those skills have turned out to be useful in my current career? 100% of them. I stand up every day knowing that basically the people I work with are no different to the people I played with, that saying something is better than saying nothing, and that if I get fired hell at least I can enjoy my unemployment hunting for epics with some old friends. It's the same confidence that people who lead sports teams at school get... and now it's available to geeks.
I might point out that being acclimatised to 70 hour working weeks and doing the same boring crap over and over also helps in the real world. Being able to have two priorities and still getting everything done with really limited time isn't exactly bad practice either.
Would I hire ex gamers? Probably. It depends if they have used their time to do something valuable, like learning how to build their confidence, lead, motivate and get along with others - and that's hard to demonstrate.
Like everything else - knowing when you have learned as much as you can and it's time to move on is a big part of determining if online games will be a constructive or destructive thing for you.
Beep beep.
This is a great left coast piece deflecting blame from those responsible, to WoW. If you are losing your job, spouse, children, physique to WoW, it is your fault. End of story. WoW, as the title implies, does not do that. WoW, as MMOGs go, has around the least time commitment you're going to find. It could be improved, particularly on 40 mans, but it is possible (albeit difficult sometimes) to raid twice a week, for 3-4 hours a piece, and leave it at that. You won't get 30+ epics, and in Naxx in 2 months like some of the more ambitious guilds...but if your guild is well run, not plagued by favoritism and/or unfair rules, and full of adults with well rounded lives, you WILL get there. You can make sure your kids are doing homework, get your 30 minutes of treadmill time, and spend quality time with the dog all while working 9-10 hour work days (which at some companies may actually not be enough, but the problem is again, not with WoW). It takes self discipline, one of the hardest attributes to level, and one which we all struggle with.
There is a point where if you cannot control yourself around something, you must stop it entirely, but again, that is your responsibility. I don't think that's necessary for the vast majority of people.
I agree with your sentiment, but having played both D&D and WoW, I can say it's not the same experience.
D&D requires that you have friends, sit down with them in person (yes, now you can play online, etc), and play for some set amount of time. Usually there's a point where the DM says something like 'I'm going to bed' and everyone stops. It requires that everyone gets together, schedules a time to meet, and that the DM put work in before you start playing.
WoW on the other hand never needs to stop. It plays as long as you want to play, and if you are in a large enough guild, then there are always people around for you to work with. Even without a guild there are people out there looking for a pickup group. MMORPGs exacerbate the situation.
Part of the fun with D&D and any r/l gaming is that you are in a time crunch and know it. How far can we get? Think quick, come up with interesting solutions. Laugh and make. Even if you want to play all night, someone in your group is going to be tired and want to stop, so you all have to stop. MMORPGs take away all the restrictions and really enable you to become 'addicted' in all the ways that you might to something else.
I will shred my adversaries. Pull their eyes out just enough to turn them towards their mewing, mutilated faces. Illyria
He obviously still takes the game seriously, if only by bringing up ad nauseum the fact that he was in some imaginary position of power. This romantic notion that he abandoned some great epic saga seems to give him great rpide, like he made the ultimate sacrifice for some greater good.
He may have left the game, but he's still living in an imaginary world from the looks of it. Although, it's possible his leaving the game could mean the end of the world...
of warcraft.
"Don't waste your time or time will waste you" -MUSE
He hooked up w/ a chick he met online, what in FSM's name could he possibly have to complain about?
[o]_O
Apologies to the hooked:9
http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=2366
This guy really hits on what I think is the biggest problem with MMO's. There's no end game. If winning is really important to you (and it's an important part of games in general), then you're never going to be satisfied.
I don't play WoW, but I do play Eve-Online, and it's basically the same thing for a lot of people. They've built big and powerful alliances, they control vast in-game resources, and they're deeply involved in all of the political intrigue in the game. But they're stuck at this terrible point where no matter how much they collect, how much territory they control, there's still tons more out there.
Just like many wealthy people in life spend their money trying to procure more wealth, the means and the end have become basically the same thing, watching a few numbers constantly increase. And since there's an infinite supply of higher numbers, there's no final goal to be reached. You end up playing to win a game that can't actually be won. Not because you're unskilled or aren't working hard enough, but because there is no game-mechanic that qualifies as winning.
Yet it still manages to sweep up lots of people, and stings them along until they burn out. But at least with real life wealth, if you eventually realize what's going on and gain some perspective on life, you've probably got a decent pile of money to support you as you move in a new direction. When you burn out on a video game and decide to leave it, you've likely sacrificed a lot of what you had in the real world.
One time I threw a brick at a duck.
It seems ridiculous to me that a lot of community commentary has been "blaming the gun" lately, relating to World of Warcraft and addiction. This is precisely the same fear-mongering approach that certain groups use to try to connect video game violence with real violence. It's more than a bit hypocritical considering that the same people will mock one yet rally behind the other. It is also dangerous subscribing to this attitude as the more we do so, the greater the chance that the resolution of the problem will be taken out of the hands of the people. This is, and always will be, a people problem, and people need to deal with their own problems.
For God's sakes its just a stupid video game. It's not a terrorist. It's not a pack of wild dogs. It's not a drunken driver. It's not a chemical that creates fatal dependencies in your body. Its a VIDEO GAME.
If you can't stop playing it, obviously you have issues. Your life is not in balance, and your obsession to the game is just a symptom of the imbalance.
The game is not wrecking your life, you are.
I play World of Warcraft. I average about seven hours a week (four on sundays, and three more on tuesdays, because thats when all my friends can also play). It is fun. It is not wrecking my life. My character doesn't level up at light speed but so what? It is just a game.
video games also do not ruin lives. People making bad choices do, no one is forcing them to play these games. I played CS for years, tanarus for years before that, even played WOW for 5 months and have a lan party this weekend... stupid people do stupid things and let stupid things happen, they also happen to play video games.
Sorry, but I don't see how anyone can worship a game [and I do mean worship]. Sure, I've played many an MMO in my time; AC1, AC2, EQ2, SoR, DDO, and more, but I could not consider playing constantly for days on out on any of them. AC1 was the only one I came close to doing that and that was I because I was in high school.
The reason why WoW is 'destructive' is that like all games, it rewards impulsive behavior. Point, click. Point, click. People start to think that's how real life operates, thus their behavior adjusts to follow suit. But, I don't think this is true in every case. I think what this article is more proof of over-reporting a minority of players and under-reporting the majority of other players.
-- Bridget
I know I'm just echoing other comments here but let's face it: All this is is more whining. If you honestly think that WoW "destroys lives" then you need a reality check: people destroy their own lives due to a lack of self-control. This holds true with drugs, booze, sex, video games, you name it. Even the "rush" one gets from those things can be conquered through willpower. Perhaps this is just man's way of defining his own natural selection: those without willpower will wither up and die in front of their computers, or on the rock, or on the bottle, and remove themselves from the gene pool. I'm not saying that this is either good or bad, but it seems to be the case here, no?
Perhaps 70 days /play'ed is impressive for someone with a 9-5 job, but I can guarantee that over half the people in my guild had more than that played - granted the majority of my guild are college students - and are probably just about as socially productive. This guy was not as hardcore as many players, and as far as I know there are no well-known RP guilds (he mentioned his guild RPs) so he's probably bullshitting about his fame as well. I don't buy his story, and how 30 hours a week was so hard to pull off with a 9-5 job, because there are 168 hours in a week.
Anyway, one thing playing WoW in a major end-game guild that has been top 10 in raiding since the beginning is that I learned how to manage time incredibly well. If you have no self control, don't have your priorities straight (which for me school is #1), and you are wasteful with what free time you have outside of raids and your other obligations, you will be dissatisfied with where your life is going. I have a feeling this guy is just one of those people who is highly susceptible to social pressure: If he had been addicted to something more socially acceptable (but equally destructive) such as alcohol, I doubt he would have written this post.
I play a lvl 60 rogue in a guild that has BWL on farm (i.e. 1 step short of uber). When I first got into WOW, I burned a lot of time on it, but now I play two nights a week from 6-10pm - that's 8 hours a week - leaving plenty of time for other hobbies and interests. The game does not force you to play 40hrs a week.
So . . . you're majoring in Mexican cuisine?
The bigotry of the nonbeliever is for me nearly as funny as the bigotry of the believer. - Albert Einstein
You and me both, buddy!
In the end, your life will simply expire anyway. Make sure you've had some fun and don't listen to other people who want to decide what you do with your time.
"I love my job, but I hate talking to people like you" (Freddie Mercury)
There are people out there that tend to obsess, here is article from UO days that tells the same story. There always will be people that obsess over something, be it gambling, sex, job, food, alcohol or success. What puzzles me is that wasting your life away in front of the computer playing mmorpgs is not OK, but wasting away your life in front of the computer pulling 60 work hours weeks is OK.
As you read the blog post, just substitute the name of your company for "WoW", "paycheck" for "loot" and it pretty much sums up corporate America.
It's no big shocker that people relate so well to WoW. Most of them live it in their "real" jobs every day!
Sounds like WoW just accelerates the experience. Perhaps Blizzard could come up with an end game in which you collect a token Social Security check and bitch to your friends about how your kids never come to visit you.
Read any good sonnets lately?
(52 weeks in a year * 5 days a weeks /*assuming 2 days off*/ ) * 70 hours played = 3.7 hours played per day
I did wonder about this part of the blog:
This makes NO sense. It took Alexander THREE YEARS to conquer the Middle East and India. And, from what I have read, Alexander had NO OTHER CONCERN than conquering. He didn't even care to rule those he conquered. After he destroyed one army, he just moved on to the next. In a way, WoW sounds like it would be Alexander the Great's Dream Game -- there is always something new to invade(with the exception it is fake and Alexander actually did conquer the real world).
Then again, maybe I'm just don't understand the way a person can be drawn into a game world. Now let me get back to Rome: Total War, I am this close to crushing the Egyptians.
I personally love video games, work 40-50 hours per week, and have a girlfriend. It helps she is into video games, but we still only play a few nights a week. (Usually around 3)
It's all about finding a balance. Anything can take over your life if you let it.
Pun intended.
It's not a lie. It's the truth with lossy compression.
I got rather heavily into WoW two summers ago and during part of the school year. Luckily, WoW wasn't strong enough to defeat my best defense ... my inate ADD. I simply cannot stay interested in any one game for longer than about half a year. It bores me to tears. WoW held out longer than most, though (other, "lesser" games, like Civ IV et al, last about two months tops). In the end I suffered a temporary downturn of grades for one semester, but I managed to escape successfully. I only wish other people the same luck.
And I simply cannot fathom playing the same game for so long. Even though it has the social aspect, the communities, whatever, it just bores me to tears.
Cyde Weys Musings - Scrutinizing the inscrutable
then any other addiction. I know plenty of people who successfully play WoW in moderation without trouble. I also know several other people, like myself, who quit playing the game altogether. Any addiction can ruin someone's life, whether that addiction be alcohol, sex, illicit drugs, video games, or any other addiction. I really do not think this should surprise people; video game addiction has been a problem since long before WoW came along. I just think that the number of addicts is becoming larger as more people begin to play games.
"Some days you just can't get rid of a bomb."
On the flip side, I don't play at work or when the kids are awake. I look at what I'd be doing instead after the kids are in bed. I've basically stopped watching all TV, an even more useless time sink. I don't read as much, but I have a very small pile of books left to read right now- I need some of my authors to write faster :^) I still go out with friends when I get the chance. (Rare, due to kidlets.) It's cheap given the time spent- going out for a few drinks with friends will be way more than $15 for a night. But it's still the majority of my leisure time, and I've caught "wife aggro" occasionally.
Am I addicted? I'm probably skirting the edges of that, and it makes me nervous.
"Seven Deadly Sins? I thought it was a to-do list!"
It's not so black and white. Half of the good things in your life are the result of luck. If you don't realize this, it's because you're one of the lucky ones.
Many times people are unavoidably thrust into a situation that puts them into a hole which is harder to get out of than it was getting into. Some of them find their way out, some of them don't. This is how life works. And there's always people like you at the top, leering at them and telling them it's their own fault they're down there.
That's not to say some of them didn't play a role in getting to the bottom of that hole, but however they got there, extending a helping hand, or at least some sympathy is a better way to respond than being judgemental.
my god- forget "RTFA" how about READ WHAT YOU REPLIED TOO!
the opening of the third of three sentences follows.
I haven't played it myself
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
There is an upside to WoW.
It builds self confidence. I've seen it in my son. He was very shy and unsure of himself, so much so that me and my wife worried about him. He wouldn't even ask questions in class. Since he started playing, he's started to organize groups and guilds and we've seen a change, he is much more sure of himself, not just in the game but it carried over to his real life too.
I think it's been a good thing overall.
Of course we're in his life and we can limit his playing hours via the parental controls.
Me and the wife have started characters and I can certainly see how addictive it is. It's not like real life, you can easily acheive your goals, for example.
So it's gotten the family to spend more time together and it's built self confidence in the kid. Not all bad.
Everything in moderation.
I also didn't like how he compared WoW to "the worst drugs on the market" or whatever. He said WoW was WORSE than those. Please. He played daily for a year and then quit with no desire to go back. Try that with heroin.
"THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS ONLY ME." -Death
People with very little to do and have addictive personalities are prone to get addicted to anything -- WoW or otherwise. For every major addict that ruins his life, there are dozens that enjoy it responsibly. If WoW weren't around, they'd be addicted to something else -- another game, collecting stamps, stalking people, etc. Addictive personalities have existed for a long, long time.
For my boyfriend & I, we use it as an inexpensive form of entertainment. We raid, but nothing insanely hardcore. 2 nights a week, usually. Other couples watch TV, we play WoW. You can't really beat $15/month ($30 for two) for some quality entertainment.
They're wrecking their own lives with lack of discipline, responsibility, and control over their impulses and addictions.
There are plenty of WoW players who lead perfectly healthy and balanced lives. (I am not one of them, I find video games rubbish)
I keep hearing people talk about how WoW can ruin your life, and how it's addictive, but I don't understand how it's the game or the manufactures fault! I've been playing WoW off and on for about two years. I play for a few hours a day and I don't pay to play every month. I think it's a great game, but if someone allows it to take over their life, then it's their own fault. People need to learn how to limit themselves, to moderate their time on a game. Everything in life is good for you as long as you take it in moderation! People blaming WoW for someone loosing their family, friends, or job is like blaming the music industry for children shooting their friends at school. I see it as, people blame the game or manufacture due to the fact that they are the easiest thing to blame. People need to start blaming themselves or others, and not a product. Now, if the game had subliminal messages that caused this, then YES, blame them game! But we all know it doesn't or they hid that stuff REALLY well!
18 months isn't very old for a guild, even in WoW. Immortalis, for one, was around since beta. Another thing I found interesting was that, to me, 70 hours /played doesn't seem like much at all. I know people who have hundreds of hours logged.
When I quit, about 8 months ago I suppose, I easily had over 150 hours logged.
I wholeheartedly aggree with TFA, though, that game is a life sucking piece of software written by the devil himself with the sole purpose of sucking your soul away.
Something TFA didn't mention is that people die IRL playing this game. Hell, there was a family in an Asian country (Forget which, China -- I think) who allowed their baby to die of starvation (IIRC) because they were off playing WoW. As I understand it, there have been quite a few people who died in their chairs playing WoW at internet Cafes in Asian countries.
I'm not trying to dilute TFA's message, not by any means. I think it is worth noting, though, that the author of TFA is dead on right about this game - and saw that much - and yet most people I know wouldn't think he played much at all. As he states in TFA - there are people who play 10 hours a day - I know dozens (if not more) people who play every concious hour of their lives. For a time, I was one of them.
The author of TFA compares WoW to drugs. A rightful comparison in my opinion. The effects it has on your life, your body are not too dissimilar from those of drugs.
I, personally, wish I had never played it. And despite the fact that I love freedom - nothing would please me more than to see that fucking game sent back to the hell it came from.
My brother, whom still plays, once started using a bot. And still does, for a long time now. Disappointed, I asked; 'Why would you do that, bro? You're gonna get banned.' -- his reply was simple; 'God, I hope I do.' A feeling echoed by thousands of WoW players on a regular basis, I'd imagine. Most people I know wish they could quit, but can't seem to find it within themselves to do so. If there was a 'perma-ban me' button in your WoW account management - I think WoW's subscriber base would drop by 1/3rd or more in just weeks - all people who want to quit but simply lack the selfcontrol to do it. (Hello drug addict)
I can't imagine Blizzard could claim ignorance to the effects WoW is having on peoples lives, and by design - as TFA makes takes good notice of. As such, the question arrises; What, if any, liability should Blizzard take. To me, I see them simply as a legal drug dealer, ruining lives for profit. Making wonderful and involving games is one thing - it seems to me what WoW is, is a totally seperate creature.
As I mentioned earlier - aside from pure selfcontrol - there simply is no way to quit. Video game addiction is very real - and as much as I personally hate to admit a lack of self-control -- I certainly wish there was a way to quit aside from the self-control I lacked, with regards to WoW. In fact, I didn't quit - it wasn't until I ganked some lowbie Alliance player for almost four hours straight that my account was permanently closed for behaviour contrary to the essence of WoW.
Had that not happened - I'm sure my life would be worse, still, and I would be playing that game right now instead of typing this message. After which I will go have a nice lunch, again -- something I would not do if I played WoW. I would order in - so as to not lose precious play time.
"Try that with heroin."
Fsck heroin, try that with plain ol smokes. It's been almost 4 years and I still want one now and then...
-nB
whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
...or "Bridge," or, heck, "Sheepshead..." set the calendar back a few decades... and most of this article would still be true.
When I was an undergraduate at MIT during the decade of the [mumble], I was fascinated by the guys I saw in the dorm in the game room, playing bridge. Almost any hour of the day, going to or from class, meals, whatever, you'd see these guys. The same guys. I'd see them at 2 a.m. in the morning as I was on my way to the PDP-1 room to place Spacewar (oops, let's not go there).
Of course, around the end of the semester, I wouldn't see them any more.
Next year, there'd be a new group of people playing bridge...
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
Agree. WoW is just a game. It may have qualities that make you want to play it more often. That makes it a successful game. Blizzard has not created anything intrinsically evil. They've created something all game developers strive to create.
Some people like playing this game more than they like doing many other things, like being social (in real life). Or watching TV or playing sports or reading books. None of these activities are fundamentally better or worse than others. It's just that these people let their enjoyment of the game overrule their common sense, and let their families suffer, schoolwork, relationships, and so on. That's not Blizzard's fault. It's not the game's fault either.
I play in an MMO. There've been times I've wanted to call in sick to work and just stay home and grind through quests. It's a great escape. It's a very enjoyable recreational activity that is relatively inexpensive and doesn't require ingesting chemicals or other risky behaviors. But common sense reminds me that it is just a game, and there's a time to game and a time to work. There's also a time to spend with friends and a time to SLEEP. As long as I keep my priorities in order, like a responsible adult, I plan to go right on enjoying my MMO of choice.
It's not a lie. It's the truth with lossy compression.
I guess 'WoW Wrecks Lives' drives more page views than 'Take some personal responsibility for yourself and get out of your basement.'
The blog post is basically a rant from a slow learner. It took him over a year and '70 days played' to figure out what my friends and I figured out in a few weeks: Yup, WoW is still at treadmill.
It's a game, people. As soon as you have more 'virtual' commitments than real ones, that should be a clue that your priorities are askew.
I currently have no clever signature witicism to add here.
What if you play 5 hours a day just to hang out with your buddies and to try and stay out of the bar? Lots of people dog on it because it is a video game. But I'm a lot healtheir now that I stay home, play a game, and cook for myself rather than sit in a smokey bar and guzzle 4 pints a night.
Some people do too much of anything, that's how us meatbags work.
Hire me...
Maybe you can get in a game of speed chess, but how much fun is it to drop in for 5 to 15 minutes of Monopoly? Or Scrabble? Do you get the guys together for 15 minutes of football? If there's no line at the lift, maybe you can get in a short ski run.
I think your assertion is not only false, but irrelevant. Now it's video games or the internet, before that it was golf and television, and before that it was radio.
There are many activities that can take up large chunks of time. And there are many people who engage in those activities without farking up the other aspects of their lives. Conversely, I can smoke some crack for 5 to 15 minutes. Does that mean crack is likely to be less harmful to my relationships than WoW?
Ok, maybe that's a bad example ;) Point is, what's wrong with taking responsibility for own life rather than blaming a game?
is the waste of time. The utter sheer waste of time. I played NWN almost every day for something like 3 or more years, as much as I could. I look back at that time with regret: I put aside my family, my friends, my other interests, and wasted a good 2 to 3 hours a day. It was filling a void, making me feel like I had control, giving me a feeling of worth. What did I get out of it though? Maybe a lesson about addiction, but really I got zilch, nothing, and a chunk of remorse.
No, it's not entirely the games fault, but just like some drug addiction it can really grab people and hold tight. Especially if there are a group of people you interact with who feed the desire to gain fake glory.
You can just hang around outside all day tossing a ball around or you can sit at your computer and do something that matters. ...
"We shall party like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean." - HedonismBot
World of Warcraft didn't wreck his life , he did it himself.
"Tu fui, ego eris" - Virgil
Mom! More Hot Pockets(TM)! (I put this in all WoW threads)
btw, referencing D&D in this is the wrong game, D&D was never said to be something that will ruin your life
I beg to differ... It's not so popular now but back in the 80's when a) I was into D&D and b) Mazes and Monsters came
out people like this were everywhere! And this guy is jut one
example (albeit an extreme one).
My opinion then was that it's ridiculous to blame the game/manufacturer and as far as WoW is concerned my opinion hasn't changed.
Creationist Textbook Stickers Declared Unconstitutional by CowboyNeal
Denial is a warning sign, buddy.
Let's get drunk and delete production data!
I seen him!
Yes, for the most part it does fall on the player to assume responsibility for his own actions. But the truth is, Blizzard is not entirely blameless. The fact is the game is specifically designed to encourage exactly the type of playing schedule posted in the blog in TFA. And what's worse, you're not clued in to that fact until you're 'almost done' with the game - when you hit level 60. (On a side note, whoever said the 'end-game' content is 5-10% of the game hasn't the least clue what he's talking about. Levels 1-59 are about 5-10%.) From levels 1 through 59, the game plays pretty much like any other family-friendly multiplayer game. You can play in bits and pieces as you want, and by yourself or with other people however it suits you. The catch is, when you hit level 60, any progression requires 20+ hours a week (the blogger says 12 at a bare minimum.. but that's a really really bare minimum) and if you really want to make headway you'll play 5 hours every week-night and 10+ hours on Saturday and Sunday. Or alternatively you can spend months devoting every spare hour of your free time to 'PvP' (read: honor-grind), followed up by almost a month of doing 'PvP' literally 24/7 (most players who make the top rank have two or more friends helping them play around the clock). Either way, it's a time investment that's guaranteed to have a huge impact on all other parts of your life. And given the time investment required to get your first character to level 60, most people aren't willing to just call it 'done' there and drop the game, which of course is precisely the effect the game is designed to have.
So yes, everyone does have to take responsibility for their own play-styles and choices, but to say Blizzard is entirely blameless is false.
There is no -1 Disagree mod. Slashdot.org/faq defines mod options. USE IT.
WoW doesn't ruin lives. People with no self control ruin their lives. I'm so tired of outside elements being blamed for people's personal inadequecies.
People have choice. Of course. A person with a strong will can quit the game. And yes, certain people with addictive personalities will probably get addicted to anything you give them. Whether it be eating, sex, a hobby, whatever.
However, what's interesting is WoW's ability to suck in "normal" people. I know a lot of people addicted that normally don't have addictive personalities. That's when it is a problem. When people with normal mental capacities become easily addicted is when you should worry. True, there are other things just as addictive. Crack or smoking for example. However, people are pretty educated on those addictions. WoW is a sneaky little bastard because it's just a video game. Most normal people would never think a video game could be as addicting and life ruining as a drug. But it really is. I understand it's not blizzards responsibility to be the worlds big brother and police game addicts. However, I do think they have at least a social responsibility to try and encourage responsible play. If nothing else, hire some WoW councilers and make them available for people who want to quit but can't.
If an officer ever threatens to taze you, say you have a pacemaker.
I work as a teacher at a Swedish high school equivialent. Our high schools are non-mandatory and have different focus areas; ours focuses on IT and economy. Every student has their own laptop and there's Wifi available. The speed is good enough for people to play WoW with minor lag.
For us teachers, there's a constant battle against students online habits. Sure, during lessons you can hardball it and tell them that "no, you aren't taking notes, you're chatting on MSN" - but we can't do anything about what they do at home.
The main problem is that they are dead tired when they come to school because they've been playing WoW all night. They aren't strong-willed enough to stand up against the guilds way of entraping you (take part in all raids or gtfo), and the parents seem powerless aswell.
We are planning an awareness capaign for the parents about this, but won't try to control the students for the parents.
In conclusion, yes the kids lives will be made difficult because of WoW. Their education is strongly suffering from it. I wouldn't call their lives ruined, though.
Do something for 30+ hours a week and it can wreck your life, you don't say... Play a game from work and it can hurt your job, no shit... Spend 70 DAYS out of a year in front of your computer and you can gain weight, never saw that coming.
While the article was well written, I don't see the point. I think everyone knows that addictions can hurt you, and WoW is no different than anything else. If anything, it might be better because this guy was able to quit cold turkey after a year, fairly impressive for a real addiciton. Good, well formed argument, but where's the point? Might as well say "Crack's addicting".
Want to find other gamers to play board and role playing game
Honestly, people need to take responsibility for themselves. Warcraft does not wreck your life. Nor does golfing, football, alchohol, etc. YOU WRECK YOUR OWN LIFE BY THE STUPID CHOICES YOU MAKE.
yeah, I'm yelling, but it's because no one is listening.
"Computer games can't affect kids that much. I mean, if Pacman had affected us as kids we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music."
their lack of self control and addictive personality did that.
If it wasnt Wow, it would have been drinking, or gambling, or cleaning too much, basically they have no self control and dont value what really is important to them. This results in destroying other parts of their life.
The phrase "more better" is acceptable English. suck it grammar Nazis
For those that missed it the first time...
WoW meets LotR
That is since March 6th of 2006. I've been losing interest in the game steadily over the last couple months though and its pretty much peaked and I'm no longer logging in regularly. I removed my credit card info and won't be renewing next month.
World of Warcraft, Diablo (II) and other online games are perfect examples of the Skinner Box. In the Skinner box, the psychologist Dr. Skinner trained rats to click a button for food. If the button was predictable, say 5 button presses and a food pellet came out, the rat would click until it was no longer hungry. If the button was somewhat random, the rat would click constantly in search of food even after it was no longer hungry. If a computer game gives you the same rewards for the same effort, eventually it becomes predictable and playability suffers. If, however, you create some randomness to the rewards, then people become addicted to playing the game just to see what comes out next.
I have not played WoW, but I can relate based on the hours I once wasted on Diablo II... clicking away just to get the occasional uber drops. Meph runs after Meph runs. Joining up with friends for hours online at a time just to get that one extra character level. Fortunately for me Blizzard ruined my fun by banning MapHack and made it not so easy to do those rapid mouseclicks. Addiction happens, and is made especially more acute by the randomness of really extra nice stuff dropping every once in a really long time in computer games.
This post brought to you by your friendly neighborhood MBA.
I suspect it CAN be a real addiction like meth or heroin. I've known many meth and heroin addicts (my father included).
Psychological addictions are no less addictive, yet their consequenses are minute compared with drug addiction. Hell, I know people (myself included) who can be addicted to anger and malice. I find myself looking for reasons to be angry some days. Just like those kids you knew in high school who would do anything for attention (either addicted or have been neglected at home, I've seen both). But like I said, I'd rather be addicted to emotion or WoW than meth any day. I only play an average of 4 hours a week, depending on what else is going on in my life.
This sig isn't original enough, it's time to come up with something witty...
its not hard to say 'hey, this is affecting my life - i need to slow down.'
A lot easier than a physical addiction I would think.
--Ne auderis delere orbem rigidum meum, non erravi pernicose!
No, seriously! Try it with heroin!
I'll give you just a taste...
I'm in a guild that is very casual - no raid attendance requirements, no devotion requirements, people are free to take breaks as real life requires. And we are VERY successful - we raid as a guild a couple times a week, and are currently working on our third boss in naxxramas, which is the newest hardest instance in the game.
The point is, people are gonna get addicted to stuff no matter what the case. Normal people can play the game and come and go as they please, without affecting their real lives. The guys I play with are Real-life friends, who I get together with outside the game frequently for socialization. WoW has just brought out the bad in some people, and they use it as an excuse to slack off and such.
+1 All one needs to do is Google for "Rona Jaffe Mazes and Monsters" to see that this stupid hysteria has been following "fantasy" gaming sinc ethe pen and paper versions of D&D.
load "windows7"
The difference is that people are actualy screwing up their lives over WoW. (agian, not blaming WoW, as I play it my self and have not ruined my life... yet).
I was simply pointing out that the hate on PnPRPGs was (and is) compleatly different then the hate on MMOs. All of the hate on PnP was about it being evil, satan worshiping, getting kids to murder/commit suicide (yes, I have read dark dungeons, yes it is one of my favorite chick tracts ever!). I admit, I am not as old as you all are (I started rping half way through the life of AD&D), and never had to deal with the stupid people untill I was in HS and could easily counter any arguments.
Do Or Do Not, There Is No Spoon, There Is Only Zuul. Everything in the above post is probably opinion.
The problem with World of Warcraft is that as a game it's a pleasurable "waste of time"
which of course if it doesn't waste a hell of a lot of your time is a good thing the
way I see it.
The problem with WoW is not that it's a waste of time but that it's a time-waster.
If you read what the man has to say on the blog who quit, then it's 12 hours a week you have
to put in just to keep up the game and if you want to "make progress" you have to invest as
much as ten hours a day. Not to mention that you have to be on time and well prepared for raids
and other team events which probably coincide with a lot of what is left of the former
pre-World of Warcraft life.
And the game is designed to take up as much of your time as is possible. After all, all games
like it charge people for the time they spend online. I would however take this one step further
and say that this is just another way people's time, attention and in short life is monopolized.
It's like the blogger said, a second ten hour job. I personally find it surprising that people
who have already more than half of their day wasted with "gainful employment" (commute 30%, working /
pretending that you're working 70%), I find it remarkable that people find so little value in
their remaining "free time" that they'll blow it away like that.
If I were them I would so I wanted to blow the time on profane bs at least try to do something
to "upset the apple cart", like go to RTMark and pick a nice
project to do. Oh wait... I guess that's just what "entertainment" like that is supposed to prevent.
MMO games will shift to player-run or free-run, or at least the players will. Why? Because no one will chow down your cash anymore... Overall my experience in free worlds cannot compare quality-wise with commercial MMO's. Somehow free worlds have more quality, and care about the creation of their system, world mechanics and general functions. I know, this is not a rule, however, if you like playing MMO's every so often... My hint is: Find a free project! Either 100% free as in original client and server, or emulated and changed. I'm currently working on www.sundershard.com which is an emulated server for "Ultima Online". It will be an enforced RP shard, where it is required for you to be in-character at all time. A more fun way to play the game, socially, without focusing too much on grinding and mechanics. PGing will be punished by the mechanics actually, since your gains will freeze. All you have to do is play the game normally, without too much committment to get fun out of it (except for us who run the game...) For all you 3D maniacs, who will for sure say "Who wants to go back to fake-topdown-3D", its actually better for you... Less tiring for your brain, you can actually relax without worrying about so many dimensions, since the game is predictable. I played WoW, yes, got to level 60, quit. I still play Guild Wars, not very often since I work and study, but whenever I feel like it. If you like 3D games, THAT MUCH, actually I'd say go for guild wars instead of WoW, for the simple reason that its a more relaxed game. Not so much grinding, and easy ways of having real fun with it without huge time committment. If you're the PvP guy, you can just make a PvP-only character in seconds... if you're the PvE guy, takes about a week to go through one of the game's plots at normal play time. WoW is evil, WoW is actually... boring-- why? In Ultima Online, at least on a good shard thats balanced... anything can happen to you. You could be killed, your items lost, your items simply stolen, like the real world... there's suspence! PERIL. In wow.. well nothing really happens that affects you all that much, nor guild wars for that matter. If you're the kind that wants to play a thief, and know what everyone is carrying around in their packs, those games aren't for you, those games will bore you to hell OR to get the same amount of fun you have to invest 2353245 hours! I like the Ultima client because its so hackable, you can basically create your own distint world with custom mechanics, skills, appearance, graphics, everything. A basically new game out of an old game. I don't really like how OSI runs the game, its way more corrupt than the most corrupt free shard project... You can just pay them and buy advances... so I'm telling you, explore the possibility of free gaming, free MMO's that can be as fun, without costing you anything, and certainly a LOT less time, and more fun! Additionally there's games being developed like http://planeshift.it/ that have original clients and are getting more and more interesting as time progresses. Good luck getting out of Blizzard's crackhouse! :)
... must... read ... from... work...
ahhh, that's better.
I also didn't like how he compared WoW to "the worst drugs on the market" or whatever. He said WoW was WORSE than those. Please.
That's not what he said.
He said he has seen more damage done by WoW than by any other drug.
I've seen more damage done by a car than by any modern weapon (because I've never been in a war zone, not because bombs hurt people less than car crashes).
You can't take the sky from me...
Stupid people destroy their own lives (and often those of others around them) and they find a way to do it no matter what they have access to.
Appended to the end of comments you post. 120 chars.
Tobacco is far more addictive than herion. The doctors proved it a long time ago.. Nicotene has a positive effect on your brain allowing it to work faster, this chemical addiction is insanely strong and you brain forthe rest of your life will be bugging you to give it back.
I have not smoked for 8 years now. I still have trouble at a bar with friends not to pick up one and have a toke. and I will occasionally enjoy a second hand smoke with coworkers outside. Every day I feel the desire to simply grab one and light it up. Only self control keeps me from doing it and I know that I will have that desire for the rest of my life.
Be it Cocaine, LSD, PCP, Herione, Opium, Uppers, blues, pinks, WOW, HL2, blogging, IRC, smoking, Drinking, whatever...
if you have an addictive personality, you will get addicted to it or something. Some thing are easierto get addicted to than others, but they all are identical to the poor SOB with zero self control and a strong affinity to addiction.
I have a brother in law addicted to huffing and pot. My wife's family is all upset about it, I see a pitiful 32 year old that has zero self control.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
OK I can see your point. I don't really agree that WoW actually screws up people's lives. I still take the stance that people do that fine on their own. But there is a difference between someone else saying a game is evil (ala chick) and someone claiming that a game screwed up their own life (like in TFA).
I recently got back into D&D by playing with my kids and having the internet to get resources from has proven to be a real boon for DMing the game. So I recently came across the chick website and was reminded of the talk my Mom had with me when she jumped on the bandwagon over "evil Role Playing Games" when I was a kid.
When it comes to people who don't play WoW making the claim that it ruins lives I think the analogy to D&D stands. But of course TFA is by what must be considered "an insider" so in that sense the D&D comparison is flawed.
IMHO though the guy sounds a little over the top. He made his own choice to spend so much time in the game and his weight gain, loss of other hobbies, etc are his own demons to deal with, not Blizzards'. Just another "It's society's fault, not mine" if you ask me.
Creationist Textbook Stickers Declared Unconstitutional by CowboyNeal
http://www.allencarrseasyway.com/
Do humans have free will or is it an illusion? You appear to have an answer however a deeper investigation will yield that the question is a lot harder than you think. One could spend their whole lives working on this question and never come up with a sufficient answer.
Anyway as someone who does not take such problems lightly I am willing to give people the benefit of the doubt. Also that the true answer is most likely somewhere in the middle. We have choice but our choices are severely limited and that our own conscious awareness is only part of a larger mechanism that is the "decision" process. Therefore I could never subscribe to the philosophy that the individual is to blame for all their problems.
Yes there still exists personal responsibility but also there exists the ability to forgive and understand. And given similar "initial conditions" I myself could be in the same difficult position.
The best education consists in immunizing people against systematic attempts at education. - Paul Feyerabend
What the poster says in that essay is nothing new, been said before by many people in relation to MMO's (and previously MUD's but to lesser degree)
Pretty much everything he says I could apply to my years in Ultima Online:On large guild council, more time spent per week in game than at work, total neglect of real life friends (unless they play the game) and then when you realise "what's wrong" and pull back or quit,the machine keeps grinding on as if you have never been there and most (but not all if you are lucky) of your "great friends" and "guildies for life", quietly and rapidly forget about you
Happened to me, happened to most of the guild council and many others I know from UO and WOW
Lucky I realised this before we moved to wow and for those reasons totally refused to take a leadership role in WOW and once I realised how time consuming raiding was (or honour grinding) pulled back from those too. Sadly with WOW (and most other MMO's) if you don't honour grind, don't raid hardcore you really only have only the 3 choices
*Constant rerolling
*Use the game as a glorified chat room
*Quit
Gone though the first 2 already and as of last week did the 3rd and I will not be back for the expansion, nor any other upcoming MMO .
The entire MMO genre is designed to give only one of two paths, either dedicate good portions of your life to it or end up feeling like you are accomplishing very little and finally after 8 years i have had enough and decided I want a real life again
The issue with online games is that you're actually dealing with other people. I managed to gather a group of strangers together for a dungeon crawl. The shaman's pet wolf drew aggro on a couple spiders at the wrong time and we had to all flee to the exit. I was the only one to make it out - some corpses were stuck at the bottom of the dungeon (this is Everquest, land of corpse runs). This was, unfortunately, the time my girlfriend and I were getting together for dinner. I told the group that I had to go.
Immediately, I get a tell from the shaman saying I can't just leave. It's a game, sure, but there are real people involved and you just can't leave them hanging.
So I actually stayed, ended up dying twice during corpse recovery, and came home to an irate girlfriend. That was about the time I stopped playing EQ. If I couldn't tell people that it IS a game and that I AM leaving when I want, then my time was no longer my own due to a game. Thanks but no thanks.
Anybody who doesnt think that Blizzard is intentionally trying to suck people into this game with no regard for what the person will end up losing in the long run.....try going to worldofwarcraft.com and attempt to cancel your account....blizzard does everything short of bribing you with free play time to keep that account up and running. 1:04 AM Anonymous said... Playing computer games have no difference from the real world pursuits apart from the fact that it is much more easier to both access and perform. There are people who are squandering their lives over playing snooker, or "hanging out with friends" while smoking marijuana in dusky bars. Not majority of people who get involved in these squander their lives, because to be able to squander yourself over these requires much money (in case of avid club-hangers), commitment (in case of snooker) or other resources that are in short supply. (like energy to spend). The key, like EVERYTHING in life, is getting the balance of things. Nothing else. As i said computer games are the most low cost and easy doable pursuit in the world. Just because its very easy to do and right under your hand, makes you to be able to spend more time for it. Your solution is to balance it out with other things in your life, and thats it. Dont worry though, playing like the way you played wow is something that passes over time. in at most 2 years, such avid computer game players either become progamers, or naturally and casually, and without much effort, turn this playing into some "delicatessen" stuff that is to be done for a few hours each evening, or a weekend.
Read radical news here
Why do WhiteBoy game addicted nerd losers insist they can be DJ's.. I think that is part of his fantisy world too.. along with his article...
Ad eundum quo nemo ante iit!
Ok, just to put things in perspective, this guy's been playing for a year and claims to be in a top guild... he may be in one of the top guilds, but seriously...
I've run a guild since day 0 of retail, played since Beta, and have been in the MMO scene as a guild leader since UO hit the shelves in the mid 90's...
That said, some of what the guy is saying is true, but I guarantee that those players letting a game destroy their lives would be doing the same destructive actions with another vice if the game wasn't there. One of our best players was a serious pot-head, and after we got him focus'd on raiding, he's cleaned up and turned that around. Yea, one vice for another, but at least WOW isn't going to kill the guy!
Zanthor
yup, that was what I was trying to get out. WoW, much like anything else in the world, can be addictive, and it is your own damn fault if you screw up your life.
The only thing I point out is that WoW is an interesting case because:
1) There are no DIRECT harms of it (ala drugs).
2) It is considerably more socialy acceptable then other addictions tend to be (this comes from video games becoming more socialy acceptable, and all I can say about that is w00t).
3) It isn't illegal.
4) It is prevelant. Most poeple know atleast one person that plays, most poeple that play want their RL friends to come join (I convinced my GF, and we use it to spend time together that normaly we could not).
So, you end up with a possible addiciton that is not inherintly evil, is redily avaliable, and your friends probably want you to join. Nifty.
Do Or Do Not, There Is No Spoon, There Is Only Zuul. Everything in the above post is probably opinion.
Not too long ago, I saw that there are three videos on one of the more... interesting torrent sites I frequent that are titled:
"World of Whorecraft" (NSFW, duh)
And judging by the screenshots, I think I found someone I can look down on even more than tentacle-loving hentai freaks.
It looks like regular porn, but the girls are wearing elf ears and leather straps and stuff.
But, OK, that's not the worst part.
The worst part: The ONE, SINGLE attractive mid-20-ish college educated young woman that I've ever had in my classes (I'm an IT Trainer. A geeky, hopelessly introverted one who will probably be a lifelong virgin) is a WoW freak. She's about 5'10", blonde, big eyes, long legs and has a little bit of a fitness-model look. She went rock-climbing in the Andes on her last vacation. She really nice and well adjusted (maybe other than playing WoW...) Seriously good looking girl... And she's a geek of the "Lord of the Rings/Magic the Gathering" variety, which probably means she'd fulfill every possible fantasy for about 3/4 of the Slashdot population.
I told her about the "Whorecraft" thing and sent her a link to the site (We send each other off-color jokes and stuff all the time). This is what she wrote back.
"I have an outfit like that. I use it to get (her boyfriend's) attention when he's been raiding too much."
There is no fucking justice in the world.
That's all I'm going to say.
Well, OK, also, people who play WoW now frighten me more than ever.
-- I wanna decide who lives and who dies - Crow T. Robot, MST3K
The question you should be asking is "who's taking over?"
"...was for a long time a member of the largest council on what is now one of the oldest guilds in the world"
You have to be F-ing kidding me...like this is some sort of real accomplishment. The kid needs to reset his perspectives. Seriously, this person has issues dealing with reality. Boasting membership/leadership to a virtual group whose existence can't be longer than seven years as if it's some sort of lifetime success story? From the first paragraph I can tell that this guy is a moron.
Schatten Teufel
There is nothing "Common" about Sense
Kind of reminds me of reading slashdot.
To the AC who said it reminds him of work: good point. Why did you AC that? Of course, work does provide you with funds for food and shelter, so there's a minor difference there. WoW is all outgo and no income, unlike some other online worlds which are providing real income for people.
Now, the most interesting question to me is: Is "real" life a simulation? For those who freak out, leave the god stuff out of this for the moment. Just take it at face value. In every age and civilization people start making models of the world, analogs of life. Whether it is a model railoroad enthusiast building a toy landscape or a Virtual Reality guy setting standards for online sex, it's the same deal, the same drive. VR is going to get to the point where there is effectively no difference the same way movies (another aspect of this: acting) are going to get so good at simulating human actors that they can all be made by Pixar. Read some of the stuff by Ray Kurzweil. He seriously thinks we'll be able to move ourselves into machines and dispense with physical bodies, thereby becoming immortal. What if we've already been down that road before? This life thing is a pretty good and complex virtual reality all by itself. Advanced physics would suggest that once you get past atoms, there's nothing there. It's all thought: You create reality yourself.
Eventually we'll all find out, but when you finally do know, don't forget you read it on slashdot first.
How about a moderation of -1 pedantic.
MMOs can destroy lives if they are not used carefully. They have a high rate of addiction and must be used with caution. Warcraft is actually one of the mildest MMOs. For the most part, you really don't need to spend a significant amount of time per week to build up a character. After all, it's just a game and for entertainment purposes only. Just about anything used in moderation is safe. The user just has to be aware of their addiction and know when to stop playing. People can get addicted to just about anything, some people are addicted to washing their hands for example.
While everyone is responsible for their own lives, the game designers (and likely the producers and corporate types) at Blizzard should also be held responsible. In a general sense, the subscription-based, time-is-more-important-than-skill MMORPG industry can be held responsible.
The current belief for subscription games is that you need to have addictive gameplay and gameplay that caters to those with vast amounts of time to keep the customers paying the monthly fees. In drug-terms, they are the chemists who believe their livelihood depends on creating a drug that is addictive enough to keep the customer coming back and a drug whose high requires large time investments or improves with amount of time invested.
There is a difference between what could be called "instinctually" fun (ie. triggers the same sort of brain regions as slot machines and other random rewards) and "meaningfully" fun (making new friends, overcoming personal challenges, learning new skills, etc). Both can keep your customers coming back for more, but the first appeals to the oldest parts of our brains - our "lizard" brains. Treat people like lizards and they will act like lizards - especially those that are most susceptible (ie: get the best high from lizard stimulus).
The aquisition gameplay could very easily be removed and there would still remain a great game about being a hero and the conflict between Horde and Alliance. Likewise, the amount of time it takes to succeed could be greatly reduced, but this game would likely lose many subscribers to other games (some of which offer lizard gameplay).
Many players would be upset that they couldn't "prove their worth" by getting the most rare doodad or feel like they have spent their time well because of their "hard work" to aquire something that proves how hard they worked. If players are looking for acknowledgement of their accomplishments there are better ways of do so than random loot drops and much, much better accomplishments to acknowledge (running a guild, helping teach new players the game, role-playing or creating in-game events, etc).
So, while every player should be held accountable for their actions, so too should the creators of the game whose limited vision and use of addictive gameplay has resulted in a game that is more likely to enrich them then their players.
Complexity Happens
I don't see anyone saying, "Whichever way you look at it, polio patients have a choice."
Of course you don't, because it's a stupid analogy. You can't take a polio-infected person away from their polio. You CAN take a WoW player away from their game.
No one in the history of medicine has just chosen to "quit" having a disease. Some may be cured mysteriously, but it's not due to their own choice of saying "I don't want this disease anymore".
Millions of people have walked away from addiction.
Every addict has a choice, it just may be an extremely difficult one to make.
Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
They make it seem like he was in the oldest guilds in the world...ever. I skimmed the article but are they talking about guilds going all the way back to MUDs or MUSHs? In fact, I'm in a guild now that has been together since UO through EQ and now in WoW. I personally haven't been in that guild that long, but met up with them in EQ.
So if this guy is talking about one of the oldest guilds in WoW, then I guess the guild I'm in is also one of the oldest as it started up like a half hour after the game went live.
But hey, his article says the same thing that we've heard over and over and over. ANYTHING can be overdone. Take all things in moderation. To all the people that say "get a life", examine your own life and see what you yourself are over indulging in. From couch potatoes to football/baseball fanatics to club-goers to people that play online games....it all can get out of hand if you don't watch it.
"Leo Fender was in a 'state of grace' when he designed the Stratocaster." -- Paul Reed Smith
The truth is some people have problems between their ears. The problem isn't WarCraft or any other game.
e ment
As true as that is, there *is* an element of MMOs that makes them easier to get 'hooked' on than other games. B.F. Skinner would recognize it in a heartbeat. Variable reinforcement works on an animal level.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schedule_of_reinforc
This whole "people wreck their own lives" trope is such a simplistic load of crap that seems to act more as a way of ignoring real human dilemmas and divorcing oneself of any responsibility for anyone else in any circumstances. TFA isn't saying he did this under duress or that Blizzard are a bunch of assholes. He's showing the specific harm (in his case, relatively minimal to him personally) done by the game and describing the mechanism by which it does harm. Useful to know and discuss. The problem with your formulation is that you left out the "with". People wreck their own lives with something, be it drugs or overeating or WoW. And, unlike you and countless others in this thread, he has the balls to own up to his own culpability as an in-game leader for not helping others deal with their addiction, which is the deeper point of his post.
Online citizen journalism from the inner city: The View From The Ground
it just provides a method for obsessive people to exercise their tendencies in detriment to their livelihood. Blaming WoW takes away all the accountability for the addicts.
(%i1) factor(777353);
(%o1) 777353
People always want to blame something other that themselves.
Which goes hand in hand with wanting to be part of a victim class so they can feel absolved of actually having to do anything to correct the problem.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
WoW and other similar online games are generally designed to be Skinner Boxes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinner_box
You do enough of the required behavior and get a reward. The key is to make the reward incentive strong enough to continue the behavior.
In WoW, and other online games, the goal is to keep the player paying money to the company to keep playing. What attracts players? A good game, marketing, other gamers, escapism, etc. The players, thusly attracted, must be kept entertained reasonably. A guy from Atari used to talk about how they developed games and thought about things like Skinner Boxes.
My comment is not particularly insightful or novel -- just google for Skinner Box and WoW. It's a connection that lots of folks have made.
Part of dealing with the problem is to recognize it when it comes at you and and realize the manipulation taking place. I don't think that the WoW owners are evil for operating their Skinner Box, as ultimately it is an issue that, IMHO, drops to the level of "personal responsibility." I'd like to see more education for kids so that they can recognize these sorts of traps in life.
We teach kids to cross streets, to stay away from old wells, not to smoke, not to shoot heroin, not to get into cars with strangers, etc. Why don't we teach them some basic life skills like recognizing likely "modern day" traps where the danger is not as obvious? Things like shopping and the dopamine connection. How fast food places manipulate their seating to encourage you to leave. How grocery stores manipulate you into walking around the entire store to get to the milk.
While I mentioned "personal responsibility" above re: WoW, the fact that some folks are either more educated about such things or more innately sensitive to the manipulation of SB's should not result in us thinking of those who fall prey to SB's as being morally deficient or lacking in self-control. To some extent, they may not recognize the danger until the SB behavior is so reinforced that changing it is difficult. I have often wondered if there are chemical or physical changes in the brain in gaming addicts that are akin to those who are addicted to alcohol or drugs, for instance. Ignorance of possible harm, rather than lack of self-control, can likely explain at least some of the fallout or collateral damage that can result from overdoing online (or offline) games.
I'm sure that we will see someone ultimately argue that online games (since they are new and shiny and an "in" target) are psycholocigal conditioning devices. I suspect that, as with DOOM in the Columbine case (and GTA, and others), that video games, online and otherwise, will continue to be whipping boys in criminal cases and possibly in the tort system (regulation through litigation).
In any case, I understand the perils of gaming to some extent, and that understanding has helped to inform my personal decisions about doing it. Likewise, I'll try to educate my kids about it. I think that seeing these stories from time to time, though we all roll our eyes at them, is probably useful on the whole, as it reminds us that excesses are often unplanned and that they take their toll over time.
GF
Lots of petrified grits
There are extremes in everything. Too much Kung-Fu and you'd soon discover the only people you really know wear kimodos.
Life is about doing what you want. In the end nothing matters, we die, become dirt, and people forget us.
The only thing you have a chance of taking with you is the lessons you've learned.
Do not spread "09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0" over the internet, thank you.
Let's form a WOW matrix within our Matrix and Cartman will be our Neo. Julian
I go out of my way to complicate the simple things, so that I can simplify the complicated things.
This has been a sympton of online gaming, specifically MMORPG's, since their creation. World of Warcrack is just a newer, prettier version of Evercrack and all it's clones throughout the years, and all the games that came before which caused the same problems in some people. Anyone prone to addiction can get addicted to ANYTHING they enjoy, or think they enjoy.
>Wow, you're awesome. You should tell your grandkids about how
>awesome you were, back in 2006. If you have grandkids.
Hey, don't be too hard on him.
This modern age has taught him that he's just an animal that happened to evolve, with no significance. And he's been taught that there's nothing beyond this life to hold him accountable.
Grandchildren? He's been taught that children are a contraception failure.
Why *should* he care about anything but entertainment? Were you expecting a different outcome to his education?
What if someone designed a game that made use of sophisticated psyscological tricks to slowly "brain wash" you, to convince you that you must play? Would that be acceptable?
Not saying that Blizzard did this intentionally, they're simply "too good" at what they do. What you call good game design is leveraging the power of small, gradual and ever slower positive reinforcments in such a way to make people play longer. Turns out some people are very susceptible to this, very small percentage but it does indeed affect their lives.
Everyone is responsible for their actions, on the other hand companies also need to be understand the deeper implcations and put proper safety protocols in place.
In all fairness Blizz made some efforts in trying to fix this, there is a time-limit that can be set to kick you out of the game, honor decay (aka running in place) is also removed.
World of Warcraft didn't ruin the lives mentioned in TFA.
/.ers can attest, even if we do joke a lot about it.
A lack of self-control and addictive personalities coupled with the chance to participate in an 'alternate universe' is what ruined lives, if anything.
I've played many MMO games, and I haven't had this problem - as I'm sure that many other
I want a 120 character signature! Please can I have a 120 character signature? I really really want one! 120 characters!
Well, he didn't say that WoW was more addictive than drugs. He said that he's seen it ruin more lives. He didn't even say that WoW was more likely to ruin someone's life -- just that he's seen it happen more with WoW than with drugs.
Part of this is, of course, because drugs like heroin are illegal and expensive, where WoW is readily available and relatively cheap. But consider his perspective. As a DJ in a club, you'll see some drugs go around, and you'll see (or hear about) people's lives getting ruined as a consequence. As a guild leader in WoW, not only did he see it happen more often, but he was helping it happen.
That's the significance of his comparison.
--
"I personal[ly] think Unix is "superior" because on LSD it tastes like Blue." -- jbarnett
Wrong. Back in the 80s, D&D was totally villainized as being unhealthy for kids because it immersed them in a virtual reality and kids would lose touch with reality. And then when Mazes and Monsters came out, it was like throwing gasoline on a fire, people started saying that D&D lead to witchcraft, suicides, etc.
Yes, D&D forces you to interact face-to-face with other humans, but big deal... it's still about 5 nerds gathered together in a basement pretending to be someone they're not. WoW lets you gather together with dozens or hundreds of people, the only difference is that there is no face-to-face contact.
Frankly speaking, it doesn't matter what the game is.
I played Madden Football obsessively, about 2 games before I left for work, and then 3 games during the night. I would make notes on every single player I played, what plays they liked to do etc, in the chance that I would encounter them again. With EA Sports baseball, I played an entire 160 game season in about 3 months, I literally played about 4-5 hrs a day after coming home from work, and all day on the weekends.
Thankfully, I never got into WoW. I bought it, but I just found the entire thing a waste of time... There was no sense of competition, there was no way to "win" the game (like the article says), and mostly it was just a whole bunch of work. I remember I spent a few hours killing and skinning panthers, then converting them to leather so that I could sell it, and I was like, "What the fuck am I doing? This is work. I just came back from 8 hrs of work, why do I want to do this at home as well??"
I played it 3 times and gave it up.
A little polemical, a little over-the-top, but disturbingly insightful nonetheless.
-stormin
The Southern Baptist Convention has creationism. On Slashdot, we have porn.
A whole new world...of Warcraft
Writing this post may not be ruining my life, but perhaps it's ruining the life of my customer who I'm supposed to be writing code for that's due in 2 weeks.
What the hell does this mean????
"my guild [damagenetworks.com] has Kel'thuzad at 8% before before the unkillable Spider adds get lose and wipe the raid."
adds get lose and wipe the raid????????????????????
nothing
That girl dumped him because he spent too much time in the game. He stopped ALL of his other hobbies and he was staying up til 2AM on weeknights doing raids. He stopped before it ruined his life, but he was on track for a big crash.
I think one of the big issues with WoW (and other MMO's) that can suck people in to it is the team aspect. If you don't show up for a raid you feel like you are letting those other 39 people down. That they NEED you to help them advance.
If you are playing First Person Shooter X and your significant other comes to you and asks you to help them open a jar of pickles, change the bedding, go out for a beer, or play naked twister, you can save and quit or pause the game and come back to it later. With MMO's there is no pause or quit. So you have the social pressure on you of these 39 people depending on you NOT going afk and you end up putting the real world one or two people aside.
I think Blizzard may have realized the timesink issue with the expansion because of their change to smaller 5-10 avatar raid encounters with saveable "wing" dungeon instances. But the fact of the matter is if you are in the middle of a fight and something happens in the outside world that requires your attention, you'll still have a tendency to prioritize the gameworld first. Thats the danger of the MMO. The social pressure of not wanting to let other people down that are depending on you.
Just because I rock, doesn't mean I'm made of stone...
You know, this story is really convincing and emotional, and I was starting to think, "Yeah, that's what Dragonrealms was like for me in college!"
But then I realized, it's all about self control. I played MMORPGs a lot in college, but that's because I had a lot of free time in college. When I graduated and got a job, I limited myself to an hour a night on weeknights, so I wouldn't wind up playing until 2AM. Eventually I got into other things and stopped altogether because I no longer had time for it. These games can consume a lot of time, but only if you let them.
God Be Gone
I've played a lot of video games in my day, both online (FPSs like Half Life, CounterStrike, Halo, etc...) and offline, single-player (Diablo, Neverwinter Nights, NOLF, etc.), and I never had a problem with balancing gaming with real life. WOW was the first, last, and only MMORPG I have or will ever play. I recognized just how all consuming that particular gaming model is for me... to the point where I was letting a lot of things slip.
My only choice was to give away all my in-game stuff and cancel my account.
From my perspective, I think it was the combination of the incremental rewards with the feeling that the game was going on without me... that semi-persistent world. I know it's stupid of me, but hey, at least I realized it was a problem before I totally screwed my life up.
For their part, WOW even had a form asking why you were cancelling your account and if you selected "other" it came up with another dropdown that included "addiction" They are certainly aware of the potential for this, and they did not try to "AOL" me into staying with them.
In the end, I agree with the general sentiment that I've seen in many other slashdotters' posts: It's up to individuals to take personal responsibility.
I'll admit that sometimes I miss the game a bit, but honestly, I know better than to ever go back... or try ANY MMORPG. My normally non-addictive personality apparently has an Achillies' heel in this respect.
The Digital Sorceress
> Grammer Nazi: to much of a video game? Oh you're just to much.
Also:
-- Oh comma you're
-- Stylistically, one might want to end the sentence with an exclaimation point, "much!"
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
I agree with you whole heartedly.
How much is your data worth? Back it up now.
What you're describing is obsession, not addiction.
"People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
Racist. DJ Shadow (white) brought musicianship back to sample/loop based music. Race has as much to do with it as Michael Jordan's shoes. But I suppose you don't care, which is why you didn't use a question mark or spell fantasy right.
Please don't blame it on WoW, this is about individuals.
Let me just say that I play a few hours a night and was raiding a little before the expansion news which caused a lot of guilds to 'take a break'. I'm currently levelling up a shaman and a hunter for the expansion.
When I started college (back in '95) a few friends introduced me to a MUD. I played it mostly to keep in contact with them (at other colleges) but just didn't really like the interface. It was all typing commands and reading text, like an online D&D session except without actually playing with other people. So, I reached the level cap, albeit slowly, and quit, only logging in to talk with my friends. However, one of my friends played all the time. He was always on. He failed out of school.
So, is Blizzard responsible for creating something that can be addictive? What about EQ, DAoC, AC, UO? They all have elements that can make people who are more susceptible become addicted. But couldn't Battlefield 2/2142? Remember that in BF1942/Vietnam you didn't have ranks. There wasn't a time commitment. You could leave at anytime. But with ranks you are need to grind your way up. The more games that contain these 'RPG' elements the more of this addiction stuff we are going to hear about.
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?" - Patrick Henry
Whatever happened to the journey being to reward, not the end?
The people who have the WoW addiction feel that they must get to "the end", whatever that may be in WoW (or any other MMORPG).
For me...it was the journey of getting to lvl 60. I liked exploring the world, searching new dungeons, grouping with a few people and attempting something new together.
It was just this past weekend that I finally reached lvl 60 with my mage after almost 2 years of playing (I have 4 other characters I was playing around with.) When I annouced my "Ding! lvl 60" on my guild chat, one of my other lvl 60 guildies says "Congrats, welcome to the 2nd half of the game".
But you know what? Seeing as the 2nd half of the game is strictly raiding, I'd rather go back to the 1st half of the game.
WOW is like a gutter in a bowling alley. People fall in? Fine. It clears the lane for us.
To me, an "addictive" game is a game that is interesting enough that I will choose to play it over other leisure activities and maybe occasionally when I should be doing work. But eventually addicting games lose their novelty and I quit playing except maybe to go back to them every couple of months or whatever.
Looking at World of Warcraft from this perspective, I imagine that someone "addicted" to World of Warcraft to the point that they neglect work/school and wreck their lives is someone with an "addictive personality" or mental problems.
I started playing WoW initially just trying it on a friend's computer. To me it was just an RPG with a lot of players on at once. Initially I did find that same addictive quality that other well-designed games have. It was just a fun game, like Super Mario Brothers or Morrowind or Halo. After playing it for about 200 hours World of Warcraft isn't really the same kind of fun, but you'll see many people continue to play anyway.
From my personal experience, around one hundred something hours into the game some other player asked me if I wanted to join their guild(if you are not familiar with online games this is like a team or organization sort of thing). I figured that was cool, I could use it to find some good people to team up with to do 5 person dungeons. So basically I got to know some of the people in the guild and have fun doing instances with them.
Eventually some of the people in the guild started hitting the maximum level and wanting to do the "end-game" dungeons. Now I felt like I should get to the highest level too, not neccesarily because it was a fun anymore but because I wanted to keep up with the people I had got to know in the guild and do cool end-game dungeons. At this point I was basically trying to find time to set aside so I could level at least a certain amount every week.
At this point my guild started getting more "hardcore". Doing end-game dungeons neccesitated kicking players who weren't at least a certain level, asking people to do at least one guild dungeon run a week, etc. While I didn't completely dislike doing these things, I found myself trying to set aside time and schedule other activities around what my guild was doing; I wanted to help them make progress in the game. Eventually all my college classes and other things were becoming so time consuming I had to stop playing for a few weeks, when I had some free time again I couldn't imagine why I would start playing again.
My point in writing this is that World of Warcraft(and probably any MMORPG) initially comes off like any other game but many people(like me) start out playing an RPG and end up slowly getting sucked into a completely different game based around competitiveness, teamwork, bureaucracy, social interaction that is completely unexpected. It isn't like a rat pushing a lever over and over to get food pellets. I started getting more invested in my progress in the game, and wanted to put more time into it. Not because of the game itself, but because of the other people playing the game. An analogy: You start a club with some friends to watch baseball games every week, and five months later find yourself a member of a competitive baseball team(and of course, there are also people who just love baseball and are fine with setting aside the time to play on a team).
Of course, the huge amount of time needed to make any progress in the game is another completely different, but important issue. Neither a single player version of World of Warcraft, nor a World of Warcraft which didn't require hours of time to progress, would result in so many "addicted" players. This is probably all stating the obvious for anyone who has played an MMORPG but it seems to be ignored in articles about MMORPG addiction.
Take responsibility for yourself. It's your problem. Your problem might be the game, but that's not the game's problem. Responsibility - it's not just for everyone else anymore.
http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/12/27/ 1748252
...you'd prefer they LARP for the benefit of an ethereal third party instead of play an MMO? Whether you're grinding faction with god or with dwarves, it's all the same shit. Just a different carrot on a stick.
Developing a code of ethics that doesn't rely on someone else's approval, now that's actually impressive.
/gkick ID-10-T No game can make you play. You choose to play. Have the Tier 2 Armor to stand up and say with pride; I ruined my life with a silly game! Otherwise, don't bother. When 7 million people play and don't get addicted - it can't be that bad can it?
It's not that WOW interferes with my daily life (job, wife and 2 beautiful children), it's that all those things distract me from playing when I want to play.
Some days, I find that I can't play at all, and others, just an hour or two, not long enough to raid, just enough to deal with Alt issues. Sure, the wife supports me when I get raid time (it's cheaper than bars and she knows where I am), but my employer could give a crap about how close I am to that epic set. Now that's just rude!
Oh, and the pool is green and the lawn is waist high? Fuck off, I'm in the middle of an AQ20.
--
This sig has a full tier 2 set
No it's not.
Transistors and Beer!!
I'm well aware of my own nihilism, and am helpless against it. How can I place meaning in anything that isn't chosen by me to have it, therefore having no inherent meaning. And without anything greater than me to guide my actions, I'm reduced to simple hedonism.
Or am I? Without artificial bounds, and in spite of meaninglessness, I'm free to live life as I please, or become whatever I want. And ultimately, my outcome is entirely my own responsibility. If I decide to become a WoW addict, I may, and accept the benefits and consequences of such. I may also decide to live life to it's fullest, whatever that means to me.
Welcome to Absurdism
What a whiner! 70 days in one year? Thats only around 4 1/2 hours a day, hell, many even play CounterStrike much longer each day!
.com company with very long work hours.
Back in 1998 when I was nr. 61 on NGWORLDSTAT in Unreal Tournament, I played 8 hours/day while working in a
When I was at Collage in 1994, we had this student group with a lot of hardcore MUDDERS. Many of us were playing from 3PM to 7AM each day, only to go back to school same day when class mates left just to pick up what notes etc. was given during the day, and then start playing again. And at weekends we were playing at 43+ hours straight.
He just don't have what it takes to become a hardcore gamer, 70 days is NOTHING, especially when he had nothing else to do that year.
That being said, it is all about priorities, he obviously don't value other activities higher than playing some videogame.
Also, he should consider himself lucky, he just might, even though he played for a relatively short amount of time, have gained better resistance against MMORPGS, I know I did from my old MUD days.
Besides, modern MMORPGS although graphical, are so very primitive compared to a mid 90's Text MUD, especially the LP ones, that they quickly feel mundane and tiresome to play.
-H
Too much Kung-Fu and you'd soon discover the only people you really know wear kimodos.
Dood, I don't know anybody that wears a lizard!
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
only 70+ days played and 30 hours a week?
Bah, noob. Whatever you can say about WoW, EQ does it bigger(better/worse, cross off accordingly).
Waiting for an amusing sig.
Those are pretty much the worst places to meet the right girls
You constantly struggle for self improvement - and it shows.
Hooray for bad Engrish on fortune cookies
...spent 4 days, almost 96 hours straight, at a local lan cafe playing WoW. His goal was to get from Lv 30ish to Lv 60... But he never made it. Instead he ended up in the hospital due to sleep deprivation, dehydration, and malnuetrition. He came into the hospital pretty much on the verge of death.
He was told never to try that again. And he has yet done so. He finally got to Lv 60 and still plays the game doing nothing but instance dungeons and pvp. His stupid stunt pretty much killed my interest for WoW. There's nothing to really gain at the end game except for a huge e-peen.
I have several friends that have "ruined" their lives with online gaming from Quake I, Diablo, Ultima Online, Asheron's Call, Everquest, Anarchy Online to World of Warcraft (I have personally played all those games and more, but always managed to put real life ahead). I have seen friends drop out of Uni and "ruined" their lives by taking early morning part-time cleaning jobs just to be able to play to being unemployed and gaming. I've seen people I just knew by name drop out of Uni like flies due to the above mentioned games and even before that MUDs.
So what's the point? I always tried to figure out what motivates these people, and I've tried to help a few close friends to get out of it, but the uninstalling of the game worked for 2-3 days and then they are back on it. One friend broke his CDs, but how hard is it to download a gaming client nowadays? WoW's client is on their official site to download so is several others.
I have come to the conclusion, that there are several factors and they are different from person to person. Some like to be isolated and now they can also achieve "social status" without leaving their nest, feeling accomplishment, being über and having the best items and what not and in some games the highest level. Some get caught in the socializing itself. Some feel why bother with the real world, "it sucks" yet their real life obligations are crashing and burning and will put an end to their gaming sooner or later.
I guess it comes down to that real life is less appealing, and of course it is. Instant gratification is not as straight forward, and we have to do boring things to achieve better things. What gets me is that this problem will be even bigger now, specially with World of Warcraft introducing people to their in some case first MMORPGs. With new MMORPGs like Vanguard, Age of Conan, Warhammer and so on this problem will continue to grow.
Personally I would like to go all bonkers and draw wild unfounded conclusions like "this reflects a modern escapism from a society that is spinning out of control", but of course there is so much more to it than that, but alas the problem with online gaming will grow huge in the years to come. How to solve this problem? It is hard, it a person to person case I think, there is no pill for this, unless the goverment start banning things.
My 2p, a 60 Priest w/ crappy blues, in a non raiding guild.
A note: I do not in anyway blame the gaming companies.
There is no ultimate point to anything. It just is. However, to say there's no point is to ignore the fact that we create the point. Mythologies are our creations, they give us meaning that we make. But we don't need a mythology to make meaning. A Buddhist koan asks: why did bodhidarma bring Buddhism to the east (china)? The question is really asking, what is the point of life? If there is no point, as Buddhism seems to state, why spread Buddhism? The most famous answer is "Three pounds of rice." Think about it.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
This modern age has taught him that he's just an animal that happened to evolve, with no significance. And he's been taught that there's nothing beyond this life to hold him accountable.
Grandchildren? He's been taught that children are a contraception failure.
Why *should* he care about anything but entertainment? Were you expecting a different outcome to his education?
That is quite an achievement in right-wing religious trolling.
You've blamed biological science, atheism and contraception for things unrellated.
Guess what, I understand evolution, I use contraception, and I know that man created god in his image. Yet I want kids, I care about many things, because I don't need a made-up boogyman in the sky to scare me straight with after-death threats/rewards to act right while I'm alive, I don't need to be ignorant about biology and reproduction to want kids.
I also know plenty of church kids who care about nothing but entertainment, negating your whole point. BTW Entertainment that panders to them, considering that I can't think of a sitcom family that doesn't go to church.
You can't take the sky from me...
His article should be titled Yet Another Long, Rambling Diatribe on Why I Left WoW
or, YALRDoWILWoW
What I find most amusing is that WoW is like the perfect analogy for life itself. You put in hours and hours of grinding for the occasional new toy or promotion which opens the door for you to.. grind to the next new toy, and in the end it doesn't mean jack... and then you die. It's no different from any other job, hobby, whatever. How many marriages have been "ruined" by a man's fancy for restoring old automobiles? How many hours a week do you spend playing guitar or working out (if you're not a WoW "addict")? What makes any of these things any more valid than the time you spend in-game?
And yet some people treat this man's self-justification as some kind of revelation. Just do what makes you happy. It's really not that hard.
I see a lot of posts pushing the 'it is a free choice' fetish. The human brain is not purposefully designed to satisfy the requirements of the rational choice crowd, it is a byproduct of millions of years of accidential and pretty messy evolution. To put this in words that the slashdot geek can understand, the human brain has lots of exploits, and they cannot be patched, only worked around with difficulty. Our prospensity to addiction and short-term gratification at the expense of long-term goals are among these. As the marketing industry learns more about how the brain really works, these exploits become more effective, and the workarounds harder.
One easy article to start with is professor Clay Shirky's provokative essay on the end of free will: http://www.edge.org/q2006/q06_2.html#shirky
The companies peddling MMO games that are designed to exploit a basic human weakness in a way that is ruinous to many people's lives are being deeply unethical, and should be held responsible for their actions. I've seen friends lose touch with everyone around them, becoming social hermits, unable to break loose from their WoW-induced addiction. They "must" join hour-long raids to live up to expectations in their guild, and taking breaks to be with friends or family is strongly discouraged by the game mechanics.
You may say that this is what you choose to do with your life. However, since the game is designed to subvert the ability to make free choices, just like hard drugs, an increasing number of people are not making a free choice to play the game. When they consider the balance of pros and cons, some of the "pros" are not there because that person has decided this is a good outcome, but because the game designers have exploited an irrational part of the brain that is not directly under conscious control. When such factors swing the balance in favour of continuing the game, you are not making a free decision, you are being owned.
Kudos to everyone out there who are playing WoW only by free, conscious decision. But are you sure you are one of them? It is very hard to tell the difference, especially when you are in the middle of it yourself. Ask anyone who has been through some serious addiction. I made a decision long ago never to play an MMO because I am not confident that I could stop before my decision to play more was determined by the game mechanics, and not by me.
This is by no means meant to jeer those who have been hurt by gaming addiction, but I think it's worth pointing out that MMO's aren't the same as cocaine or nicotine. There are players who will take them to unhealthy, and even clinically addictive, extremes. Likewise, there are players who will drop the game without difficulty, like I did.
I prefer to think of the relationship between MMO's and gaming addiction as analogous to the relationship between casinos and gambling addiction. Can we really censor Blizzard (or any other MMO maker) for creating the best and most enjoyable game that they can? No more so, I think, than we can take exception with a casino providing a stimulating atmosphere at the craps table.
Those who develop gaming addiction undoubtedly need help. However, stating that a game itself wrecks lives is debatable. In many cases, it may very well be the person's own personality and predispositions that cause them to become addicted to a passtime that would be harmless otherwise. For many, blaming the game is merely a cop-out, a way of avoiding responsibility for their own problem. And, whether they want to admit it or not, it is their problem. If it were the game's, we'd all be addicts, and that obviously isn't the case.
Okay, I'm done ranting. *braces for flaming death*
Just write a lua script that will pipe a textbook file directly into guild chat..problem solved! Next question please..
"This is a story that is very familiar to a lot of folks. I know people who are actively wrecking their lives and risking their jobs by playing too much of a video game."
I know people who are actively wrecking their lives and risking their jobs by drinking too much.
I know people who are actively wrecking their lives and risking their jobs by watching porn too much.
I know people who are actively wrecking their lives and risking their jobs by smoking too much.
I know people who are actively wrecking their lives and risking their jobs by flirting too much.
I know people who are actively wrecking their lives and risking their jobs by taking drugs too much.
I know people who are actively wrecking their lives and risking their jobs by fishing too much.
Yes, some people have addictive personalities. Should help be provided to those folks - perhaps. The point being that these types of studies tend to take study results from a fringe group and then expand their thesis to say that xxx is bad in general. The vast majority of people can moderate their own lives and take (or should take) personal responsibility for their actions. Let us be careful not set policy based on abuse by the few.
I know dragons and martial arts are often paired together, but that's just taking it a little too far.
kurzweil_freak
5th Kyu Genbukan Ninpo/KJJR student
Be the darkness that allows the light to shine.
I live with a guy (he also posts here, too) who plays WoW day in and day out. I'm sorry that many of them have had unhappy experiences but, I've got to speak up in favor of it.
Last year, my partner had - what we thought - was a stroke. He lost the ability to speak for a bit, lost strength on his left side, migraines every day. Through his playing WoW, he regained his speech (he now uses his headset on the game), his mobility returned and during the 18 months he had migraines where he couldn't go out, the game allowed him to interact with people.
I guess I'm not one of the usual suspect GF's that disapprove of things if they're not focused on me, because, I'd rather have him home playing than at a bar, sucking down drinks. We have friends who come over and yet, I never make a fuss when he wants to play.
Oh...and it turned out to be a tumor on his carotid artery. And I can't thank his WoW guild enough for helping during this very difficult time in his life.
Racist? Thats a big charge! And commenting on a typing error is just childish. A White person talking about another white person in a non-demeaning way is not racist. Perhaps you should look up the word 'racist' in a dictionary. I never said that anyone was superior in any way because of their race or color. I mearly suggested that and inordinate amount of these losers tend to claim that they are DJ's. Your charge does not hold water because it's based on just plain ingnorance.
Ad eundum quo nemo ante iit!
Um. Wasn't Ultima Online the first?
I find it amusing that if people point fingers at video games making people violent, the reaction is usually along the lines of "It's not the video games fault, where were the parents? I play video games and *I'm* not violent..."
Yet when it comes to World of Warcraft, some of these same people start whining about WoW being addictive and ruining their lives. They place all kinds of blame on the software itself, and none of the blame where it belongs... in their own hands. To those who are 'addicted' to WoW: Step outside, enjoy some life away from the computer, and realize that it's not the game's fault you just wasted months and months of your life.
The game didn't force you to play, didn't hold a gun to your head in the late hours of the night. Any problem related to you playing too much WoW is your own fault. Just learn to step away, and enjoy the game more casually. Play 3 nights a week, maybe an hour or two a night. Make sure to still go out with your friends, still exercise, still LIVE.
Don't buy WoW Gold! Make it yourself!
Cocaine's a helluva drug.
When I was a kid, my grandparents sent me a package that consisted of various anti-D&D literature. I was rather amused that some of it wasn't the normal Chick Tract drek. There was actual talk about psycological behavior and impact - pretty much the same ideas we now refer to as Skinner Box mechanics. This is the very same cautionary tales we now see applied to online games.
Of course, as interesting as the literature was, it came literally packaged with other examples that clearly painted D&D as the evil menace. It all came from a workshop my grandparents attended from their church. Their intents were well-meaning, but clearly misplaced.
From my perspective, there doesn't seem to be much difference between the keyboard and pen-and-paper.
I just realized something. I have a friend who's dad, I'd guess he is around 40-45 year old, has been playing World of Warcraft since the beta. I thought it was actually kinda cool, he was the first real life person I know who reached level 60. He and his son, my friend, has always been in the same guild. They raided together. I actually kinda envyed him for having a dad who knew what we talked about, and usually laughed about the same jokes as us. We used to laugh our ass off when we heard him swear in the ventrilo, not the reaction you'd expect from a completly normal dad. Now, just a couple of days ago, I heard his parents are getting seperated. And that's after (I'd guess) 20 years of marrige. Just now did I realize that WoW most probably has atleast something to do with it. Really makes me sad.
I'm a Call of Duty addict. I play about 5 hours a day. I've lost my job and my gf. Please, help me! Meet me at the second floor of Pavlov's house (on funfighters server), near the HQ.
I've posted a reply to this in my journal, if any are interested. Link is in the sig. ;)
Endorphins are addictive AND chemicals.
Your understanding of addiction is woefully outdated if you think a dependency has to come from an external source.
addiction (-dkshn) Pronunciation Key Audio pronunciation of "addiction" [P]
n.
1.
1. Compulsive physiological and psychological need for a habit-forming substance: a drug used in the treatment of heroin addiction.
2. An instance of this: a person with multiple chemical addictions.
2.
1. The condition of being habitually or compulsively occupied with or or involved in something.
2. An instance of this: had an addiction for fast cars.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
WoW was released in November 2004. The oldest guilds are no more than a year and a half older than the newest guilds! BFD.
An oldest guild in everquest? Sure that'd catch my interest a bit. An oldest guild in DAOC? 50/50 catches my interest.
Hmm. This is actually almost exactly like end-game raiding works in WoW. At least how it worked in my guild and the other endgame guild on my server. We meet up, we play for a specific amount of time. At 10pm, the raid is over. At almost no time is that hard cut-off exceeded, mostly for the mental health and ability to sleep. How far can we get in AQ40 before we reach that time period? Can we really get through the 5-hour Nef run in BWL? Over time you discover you are not only racing that artificial barrier, but also natural fatigue. The raid doesn't perform nearly as well at 10pm as it does at 6pm, so going late late into the night is almost never worth it. You don't advance any further and you're just banging your head against the wall.
Odd.
I've been in the SCA 8 years (...make that 9 years...) and never seen anyone draw live steel on anyone else. Ever. The closest I've seen to that sort of action was rapier fighting with armour and tipped swords and rules apon rules.
Are you sure you're not talking about some other reenactment group?
I agree it can be addictive though: I've seen people with worse SCA addictions than any you can get with WoW. Escapism is, after all, escapism, surely the most highly addictive thing known to man...
Funny thing is I was hassled by an alcholic beggar in my front yard yesterday before I came in to get on the computer and eventually play WoW.
it hasn't been out for 'years' yet.
d -of-Warcraft/dp/B000067FDW/sr=8-2/qid=1161216305/r ef=pd_bbs_2/002-9874367-2485663?ie=UTF8&s=videogam es
http://www.amazon.com/Blizzard-Entertainment-Worl
Release Date: November 23, 2004
it's been out for 1 year 10 months and 25/6 days....
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
People do this all the time. It has nothing to do with WoW, EQ, MMOs, games, or computers. For thousands of years, people have been finding hobbies that take them away from their normal lives. They pursue the hobby like an obsession. They care more about their precious garden than they do about their family and friends, or they spend all day in a park playing chess against strangers so they can brag that they're the smartest hobo in the world.
Maybe it's horseback riding, hiking, poker... and sometimes it's not even a hobby. Sometimes the obsession is more work. It doesn't matter what it is. During these secondary activities that become more important than their life, they meet people, have affairs, and throw 20 years of marriage down the tubes. And all this was happening long before Blizzard was even imagined.
Do I understand why people do it? Not really. Don't even bother explaining it to me because you're too sick to rationally understand why you are the problem, it is not the problem. Do you honestly expect me to believe you were on the fast-track to success, on the verge of being a Kung-Fu master, socialite, and brilliant newly graduated engineer were it only not for this game? Nice try, I know it's not your bridge to sell.
Endorphins are addictive AND chemicals.
Sigh...
Your understanding of addiction is woefully outdated if you think a dependency has to come from an external source.
Double *sigh*: Your understanding of addiction isn't outdated, it's flat out wrong.
The distinction to an addiction to a chemical substance is in the definition you quoted! Right before the part you put in bold. There's definition 1, and definition 2. 1 is chemical, and two is not. They both involve endorphine because EVERYTHING PLEASURABLE OR REWARDING involves endorphine, good food, good music, pot, heroin, games, they all involve endorphine in different amounts.
See, smarty pants, if a non-substance addiction warranted to be labelled 'chemical', that would mean that a substance-based dependency would be a chemical^2 (squared) addiction, wouldn't it? So, before you hit [Submit], read what you wrote and quoted, make sure it's not nonsense like that post. 'Kay?
You can't take the sky from me...
You can summerize all the posts on this topic by a few different mentalities
a.) Still playing an MMO, addicted, and in denile
b.) Playing an MMO, worried about becoming addicted, but is still playing
c.) Those who never played an MMO or played and got bored fast
d.) Those who played an MMO for an appreciable amount of time and got out.
I played online games for a few months awhile ago, and refuse to do so again. My reasoning is simple. When you first start out, it's easy to play a casual amount. As time goes on, you either a.) put more and more time in or b.) get bored and leave the game. I have NEVER met an exception to this. Let me reiterate that, I've NEVER met anyone who had been playing over six months who wasn't either coming on once every one to two weeks or was on almost constantly.
That being said, there are plenty of people who dilute themselves into saying they balance their play time and their real lives. Going to work, eating, sleeping, bathroom and gaming isn't what I consider to be a balanced lifestyle. I think it should be emphasized what people consider to be 'acceptable levels' of gameplay vary between people... A LOT. Many MMO gamers feel that if they can function in their job and manage to avoid being dumped by their S.O. (if they have one), any amount of gameplay is acceptable. That's all well and good, but these people have to realize that most of the world sees this as excessive gameplay. These are typically the people who also get defensive as all hell when the issue of game addiction is brought up.
Sorry, but from what I've seen the long-term casual MMO player is one of the most popular myths in cyberspace; but there is no shortage of people in denile playing mmos.
Just look at the SIZE of that e-penis!
Sometimes my arms bend back.
You quit, you delete your characters, you have a trusted friend change your account password, delete it from your computer, break the CDs, etc. If it's very hard for you to get started again it's easier to quit. I deleted all my high level EQ2 characters a couple weeks ago. It was actually sad, believe it or not, to hit the delete button on something that'd served as my virtual persona for a year and a half, but once I realized that I still talked to all the friends I'd met in-game that mattered to me, it became easier to see them as just a bunch of pixels and a spreadsheet of data.
If you actually do want to quit, that's the way to do it. But I agree with you that there's far worse things. I just decided that I wasn't even having fun anymore but that I was going to keep coming back, so I took the appropriate steps.
Pfffft, what a load of shit.
If you're in a large enough guild, you're raiding. If you're raiding, the raid stops when you lose critical mass to proceed. Someone says "I'm tired, going to bed after this boss" and that's usually the cue for a bunch of other people to bow out too. Just like in the D&D scenario you painted.
You forgot, however, to mention the D&D obsessive who spends hours alone going over his character sheet, or reading a rulebook carefully, cover to cover, until it's all memorised. D&D doesn't ever need to stop, either.
WoW has some pointless timesinks very very few people would be sad to see gone, and those could stand to be removed, granted... but it's not an enabler. If you're an obsessive type, you'll funnel that into something else. Blaming WoW is just ludditism -- it's new, it's scary, OMG things were so much better back then!
additions have different effects on different people
.. I can't buff a rogue with int, it would give it a brain which it can't use ;)
Indeed
--- I am known for the ones who want to find me on the net. Is that a privacy risk or a privilege? One might wonder..
Rome wasn't a power when Alexander was alive. The primary power in the world during his lifetime was Persia. According to the Internet Ancient History Source Book, Alexander lived between 356 BC and 323 BC. Rome didn't become a serious regional power until 100 years later, around 200 BC. For example, the Battle of Cannae, where the Carthiginian Hannibal wiped out a huge Army from the Roman Republic, occured in 216 BC.
That would go a long way in explaining this post.
Unless, of course, you were serious?
freechess.org:
Total time online: 99 days, 15 hrs, 20 mins
% of life online: 3.8 (since Mon Aug 9, 23:56 EDT 1999)
and some others are much worse.
hmm. Could Scott McCloud's classic chess comic be adapted for WoW subject matter?
If you need text styles to communicate then you don't have a message.
WoW wrecks lives? Yeah, right. Guns wreck lives too. And gambling. And drinking. Work wrecks lives. I know many people who are such work-aholics that they spent 80 hours a week at their job, alienate their spouses (and end up divorced) and their kids. What an idiot. Do you know how wrecks lives? PEOPLE. People wreck their OWN lives, with stupid decisions. Idiots who leave a gun out in the open and one of their kids shoots their sister in the face with it, then they sue Smith and Wesson and WIN! I have 3 60's in WoW, 2 of which are decked out in tier 2 gear. I've been in guilds that were 7 years old and spanned 5 MMO's (18 month old guilds are noobs, they haven't even worked out their dkp system yet). I just hope Jack Thompson doesn't pick up this banner and decide WoW ruins lives. The only lives that are ruined by WoW are the ones that would be ruined by something else shiny if WoW wasn't there.
/played = 70 days? The guy hasnt even started...