Slashdot Mirror
Whistler "Anti-Piracy" Tools Tie OS To Machine
Dredd13 writes: "According to this Yahoo!News article [note: the same story is also being carried at MSNBC and ZDNet] , anti-piracy features in Whistler "won't allow the use of the customer's product key on a PC different from the one originally activated"... which means that if you have that older computer and decide to try and move your Whistler license (that you buy at a retail outlet like Best Buy or wherever) to your new whiz-bang fast model, you'll be completely boned. The code won't actually activate without authorization from a clearinghouse first.
So much, also, for high security installations (where any connectivity, whatsoever, with the outside world is verboten)... without the ability to connect to the clearinghouse to "authenticate" the product key, they too will be unable to use their license.
Part of me is happy because this is obviously a Bad Move by MS and will hurt them, but what if other software vendors start to think that this is a Neat Idea? {yuk!}" It's not a new idea, and lots of software is already sold this way -- but this time it seems to have caught a lot of people's attention. Windows' ubiquity, and Microsoft's history of mostly looking the other way when it comes to illegal copying of their OS, may mean that a lot of eyes get bigger, soon.
If I get a program needing a dongle or anything like this, it gets automaticaly sent back. The sales department has to meet my requirements, not the other way around. It makes the salesman squirm and do the hard sell that I have to have it. I ask who is their compitetion? It's suprising how many times you can get a revised edition at a favorable price, but be prepared to use the alternate.
The truth shall set you free!
If you get one of the update CDs (marked as Update, not Upgrade) for reduced cost (I think they were going for something like $20 directly from MS, or about $50 for ME in the stores) you cannot install it unless there is a working copy of Windows 98 on the system.
Makes it a real bitch to support when the poor sod only has one of those recovery CDs that format the hard drive and they don't have the original Win98 cab files on the drive.
And have never made a startup disk, of course.
Am I bitter? noooo...:)
You don't have many of those big servers in a company, definitely much less than workstations. The price per unit is also MUCH higher than in a PC.
Thus, the cost of a license transferring scheme that might cause one hour of work per upgrade and machine (like calling your OS vendor and re-registering for the modified hardware) will be insignificant for the "big irons".
But if the same company upgrades hundreds or thousands of PCs, it _will_ hurt them.
C - the footgun of programming languages
What really annoyed me about this CD was that the Windows installation it provided was really badly configured. DMA had not been configured on the IDE interface. Applications were installed incorrectly (eg. Corel Photopaint could not open images) and file associations were often set up for the wrong applications. It also contained a lot of obsolete Win3.1 applications, and even a Win3.1 Fax driver.
Olivetti also bundled another Windows CD-ROM containing all the files of the standard CD except for SETUP.EXE, meaning that you had to install via the recovery CD.
Not to totally throw a grenade out here, but i am strongly of the opinion that small deployments by home users of the Windows O/S should ALWAYS be free.
I have personally never paid so much as one dollar for any Windows O/S, eventhough I have used Win9x and every flavor of WinNT on countless machines. (I guess you could say that i paid once for a copy of Win98SE when i bought my Dell laptop.)
Overall, though, it makes no sense to me for home users to have to pay for software on the order of operating system software. Only commercial businesses should be subject to this cost structure. Making software free to home users would actually encourage that software to be recommended in offices.
Currently, more and more offices and businesses rely on computers. The number of machines used increases every day. Companies like MS will always have a dollar surplus, trust me.
The only real reason to not support free O/S deployment for home users currently is that it would make piracy very hard to track and pin on companies.
Of course, the part that really scares me in all of this is the aspect of tracking for marketing reasons. But then, i find solace in the fact that it's Windows Whistler we're talking about here - if Whistler is in any way the answer to WinME then i'll just laugh my ass off and walk right back to my BSD and Win2000 boxes.
Besides, I give the WareZ community three days after the commercial edition of Whistler is ready for them to release a crack that bypasses the entire copy protection scheme.
Good luck Razor, Paradigm, Class, Core, Blizzrd, Devotion, DSi, MaD, PGC, TNO, Twilight, PWA, phoenix rising, Prophecy, GLoW, Fate, AiR, and the entire rest of the scene!
Well, obviously.
-- Eat your greens or I'll hit you!
-- Eat your greens or I'll hit you!
The Dells we got at my last company had the entire "restore image" on a hidden partition on the hard drive. There's a hidden file ("ZZ.BAT") on the root of the C: Drive. Running that activates their imaging software (like Ghost but named something else, that I forget) and lets you restore the image to as it was when it shipped. You do not need a CD to do this, you simply need to be able to access the C: drive (even if you have to boot from a floppy to do so). I never had a hard drive completely fail, I imagine that Dell would've simply overnighted us a new one if that had happened, since this was a corporate install.
It is, of course, an arbritary definition, other OEM licenses sometimes associate with other things. And OEM licenses are very restrictive in general.
What I always wondered is, if I buy a Quad-CPU box and split them up.... ;-)
~~~~~ BigLig2? You mean there's another one of me?
In some countries (Denmark) you do pay per phone call
I didn't say it was your fault. I said I was going to blame it on you.
Aren't the CD images that you download from Microsoft's OEM site already ready to install without having to enter a CD key or anything like that? Is that the same for Whistler? I have a friend who has a beta of Whistler and it was already ready to go. Just get a Microsoft OEM friend to download Whistler for you. If you really want an OS that looks like a combination of AOL cutesy pootsie art combined with Windows.. *BLAH!!* *gag* *all sorts of other nasty sounds* --Malduin
>I happen to have a completely unique custom-built house which was designed for me by an architect
:-/
I wanted to add more info about that my own personal case of this in, but I never got a chance.
The house I'm talking about (not the addition, but the blueprints) was ours. The copyright on the custom blueprint is under our name since we decided to contract out our own work (we basically hired another person to do all the contracting for us, but we ensured the blueprint was under our name). We hired the architect to take our scribblings and redraw them into a "buildable" house. We did not give him permission to retain copyright.
Even with all this work, we are saddened by the fact there are at least two houses on the same street with the same look and feel [IMHO] (never entered the homes, so I don't know about inside). But hey, what can you do?
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
You can also circumvent them easily. Map quake3arena.com to 127.0.0.1 / and run a quake3 fake keyserver which always answers "You're legit".
Of course, Microsoft will probably be bright enough to insist on digitally signed and dated responses if they really want to stop piracy.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. (Einstein)
"
>Paying for software sucks.
Yah, and paying for food sucks too, but you gotta eat.
"
That's a bad analogy, with food you pay a production cost, with software you pay a development cost. I think it's more like
I own a garden and seeds, I want to grow my own food. I can buy a shiny book with full glossy instructions, which I am not allowed to tell anyone else about on pain of death [Microsoft] or I can simply pay the reproduction cost of the instructions from my local gardeners group and pass them on to anyone I like [Linux].
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. (Einstein)
So even if I'm a doctor who can afford all the MS crap they ever made, the OS I will want is the cracked one. There is a cost to MS when their real software is this much worse than the cracks. Instead of going to CompUSA to blow $200, Joe Money will go ask the pimply, pale neighbor for a burned CD.
Many businesses and individuals do #1. They don't upgrade, and this hits Microsoft's bottom line pretty bad. That's why they are moving to a subscription based model. You will HAVE to upgrade, or at least keep paying and paying for it whether or not you install the latest version your subscription entitles you to...
Of course, corporates usually buy bulk or OEM licenses, but not exclusively- I went to a MS focus group recently where they were trying to find out why we IT guys buy so much boxed product instead of using bulk licenses.
(The answer BTW is that a) you only get a bulk licnese when you buy a lot of something centrally; if a new guy starts and tells me he needs project 2000 I just buy a boxed copy and charge it to his department and b) l-users buy the stuff themselves on credit cards because blinkered senior management refuse to let us have taser guns.)
Anyways, back on topic. What's to stop you having an $10 ethernet card in the drawer and registering your OS with that card, and then installing the OS on 1000 machines with that card?
Apart from the fact that I work from a reputable company that is not interested in pirating software. I mean, we're pissed off enough when people pirate the software(or hardware) that we make!
~~~~~ BigLig2? You mean there's another one of me?
MS Word for DOS used to have a copy protection scheme very similar to this.
You installed it from floppy.
The floppies were modified during installation
You could then not install from the same floppy again.
If you uninstalled, the floppys were modified again to let you install it on a different machine.
I got caught out after I trashed the disk and found I could not install another copy.
Later versions didn't have that copyprotection (they backed down) and
reading the venom against this move makes me think they'll back down again.
I would have thought you Linux guys would love this move, it creates a whole $0-$100 price hole under Windows into which Linux would fit nicely.
So if you don't want to pay the fee, you have to buy Linux, whereas now you can simply pirate Windows.
Same with Windows users, $99 is a lot to pay for a minor upgrade, but if everyone pays up it the price could be lot lower.
That's the other thing. A lot of my parents' friends have their children install software for them. Many of these children are WELL below legal age, and are thus unable to agree to a contract. How does that work? Are children not allowed to install software? Do you agree to the license when you buy it, no matter who actually does the installing? (Even shakier legal ground...)
-RickHunter
Well, if you ask someone to do something for you, and you know of legal implications, you're (in most cases) taking the same responsibility as them.
If you buy a computer that has Office 2000 installed, you didn't see the EULA and even if it was binding, it wouldn't affect you.
But, if you buy Office 2000 and ask your friend to install it (and the judge would think you had reason to know there was an EULA) then you'd be bound by that. (Assuming once again, that it was a valid contract.)
So, if you ask your kids to do it, you're as good as doing it yourself if you knew what to expect.
But, EULAs aren't binding and have no hope at all of being binding, by regular contract law. That's why companies are pushing for the UCITA, it'd make an end run around contract law and make contract binding even if you didn't know about them, if the wording changes without your knowledge, etc. Basically the UCITA would support everything the companies already claim the EULAs can do.
It's proof, in my mind, that those companies are headed by thieves. They're bribing politicians to pass unjust laws that basically allow them to steal.
Oh, if only 'campaign contributions' were illegal in the US/Canada like that are in so many other countries. I'll love to see politicians get thrown in jail for taking bribes, but it's legal here. Even Mexico has the decency to make it illegal.
I am not sure why it's such a bad thing for Microsoft to lock their software to a single computer.
OK, I'm going to go with your grocery store analogy here, because its a very good one.
You say you're not sure why it's such a bad thing for Microsoft to lock thier software to a single computer. Here's why: If I go to an actual store (say, Fred Meyer), and I buy a 24 pack of store brand toilet paper, I can go use all that toilet paper myself, or I can give my neighbors a few rolls, and I can even put rolls of toilet paper from that package next to different toilets in the house. Hell, I can even go string the toilet paper through the trees of that asshole down the street who always runs the stop sign...
So if Microsoft's the grocery store, why do they think that I should be legally bound to not share thier $300 toilet paper with somebody else (if nothing else but to split the cost)?
--
Help us build a better map!
I am not biased. I like certain MS products, true; I love windows 2000, and I love Office 2000, I think DirectX (from a standardization perspective...."
Did you realize you just negated your initial statement?
========================== pipe(13) -- can you figure it out?
Good point... However, many minors also install software on their parents computer of their own choice. The parent(s) sometimes give out money for the software, but the kids do all the actual work of installing it. And given the technical literacy of most people who would ask their kids to install software in the first place, is it really reasonable to assume that they could anticipate the terms of the EULA beforehand?
-RickHunter
First, because it's a big lie. There is nowhere near the level of piracy that justifies this. This "feature" is going to make for M$ hundreds or thousands of times the money they are losing from piracy, maybe way more.
How would they do that? So I upgrade my machine to the new whizbang Ultrapentium 8 and give my ratty old P-III, freshly loaded with Linux, to my nephew. How are they going to determine if I upgraded, or am trying to pirate? The only way I can see for them to do that is if I have to stay connected all the time to use it. Then that brings in their .NET conspiracy.
I've personally not called for a splitup of Microsoft. I don't think that remedy is justfied.
Many Linux/BSD users occaisionally use MS Windows. Many, like myself, could very well go through 2 or 3 complete hardware changes by the time WIndows needs to be used again. That means because it already can't function when the drive is moved to a new machine, I have to do a full re-install. The anti-piracy lock will just make that worse.
Of course, we're getting closer and closer to not needing MS Windows at all. Everything I've needed to do in MS Windows I can now do on Linux or Solaris, with one exception (Visio) and there may well be a solution to that soon, anyway. So perhaps in the end it will be just the heavy MS users like yourself that are affected.
But I suspect it gets "press" coverage in slashdot just because it provides Linux users more information to help try to get some businesses to quit making so many committments to Microsoft, if not outright begin the transition to Linux.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
Probably not. In the case of the kids doing it on their own, I think the contract is standard for a minor (ie, only binding as long as the minor wants it to be.)
Even if the parent knows the kid is going to install software with an EULA, if the parent isn't asking them to so it's not their problem.
The only way EULAs will ever be enforced (without an unjust law like the UCITA) will be against businesses. But even then it'll just be the threat of a lawsuit and years in court, without having any real legal weight.
Only if you erase and reinstall Mathematica. The licensing scheme is asinine, but it's not that asinine. ;)
Actually, it didn't require an erase/reinstall - the reg number was calculated from the PCI devices or something like that (so I heard). I swapped out a couple of cards and had to re-register once (but swapped cards around other times with no ill effects). Shoud've just made friends with someone that worked there or something, after all of the times I had to reregister (and pay a whole $5 less than full retail for an incremental upgrade)... </RANT>
Though a MAC address is supposed to be unique, I have friends that have actually come into contact with duplicate MAC adddressed cards. Beyond simply being a script kiddie, it shouldn't cost more than $5 to make a fake NIC card with a programmable address so as to foil the system. Hell, you could possibly even write a fake NIC driver that did this for you.
The next issue is one of requiring people to have NIC cards. I realize that more and more services are requiring the presence of a NIC card, but Windows is ubiquitous; everyone will eventually have at least NT consumer (in whatever form it ultimately takes). Granted, all new machines will have to be built with a NIC card for the OS to be installed properly, but upgrades will be virtually impossible because they'll require people reading the directions in order to make the phone call, etc. Plus you have little chance of grandma (without a NIC card) installing the OS upgrade so that they can use that neat multi-media tool.
What happens when we move to gigabit ether in the home or via faster ISP? Do we have to re-validate our machines? What about those of us with too few PCI slots yet we have a home-network (none NIC) card? Maybe they have compatible MAC addresses, maybe not (As I understand it, modems get assigned a virtual MAC address).
I don't mind something like this from SUN, or HP where they have more control over their systems (plus they are predominantely networked). But a not on a monopolized OS that people's live depend on (and thus depend on easy upgradibility, etc).
My guess is that a minor version of the win95 hardware upgrade madness will ensue. People will buy new machines out of convinience or give lots of business to CompUSA / BestBuy, etc.
-Michael
-Michael
I won't be surprised if this version will hit the warez-sites real soon and will be the most distributed version of this OS. If they're really going to do that they'll be undermining their own plan...but then again, it IS micro$oft....
Don't worry, it's all just 1's and 0's anyway...
I printed the CD key as a barcode on the box. Use a modified Cue Cat free from Radio Shack to scan the key to save typing. Works great. I knew there was a good use for these!
The truth shall set you free!
No, I buy organic rolled oats, because I like 'em and *think* it is a good idea. But I don't have time to *know*.
Most of the several restaurants that I patronise no longer even bring me a menu. I tell them what I want. If they can't do it, then I will find someplace else. And you know something? Instead of being treated as a "difficult customer", I usually get treated like royalty. There is often a side dish or two that I didn't order that the chef thinks I might like to try (and don't get charged for), or a complimentary glass of wine "that will go particularly well with your meal". Unless the place is particularly busy, NEVER order from the menu (a list of someone else's choices).
Zero Sum (don't amount to much). [root@localhost]
So what is it that you switched to that does not require you to learn about the internals to keep the damn thing running?
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
Speaking of gardens, the Linux garden starts with a lot of weeds, but once you get rid of them (hand-picking makes for sore hands and headaches in the case of Debian), all you have to do is glut yourself. I tested Debian way back when on a totally Microsoft-free drive without knowing zip about it. If I can survive that, without one single crash, which cannot be said about a Windows neophyte on Windows, then anyone can. Instead of the comparison between gardens and grocery stores, I see it more as eating cold, canned beans (windows) and opening the can first to heat the beans up. At least Linux comes with a can opener.
Rien n'est plus beau que le creux du 0.
"
This has been the norm for at least ten years on *nix software. Most high-value stuff has been licensed by a scheme like FlexLM on Solaris, HP-UX and so on. The license server is tied to a server and can dish out up to n floating licenses to whatever workstations request them. When a workstation stops using a license, it can be used by any other on the local network. You can use as many as you've paid for, but no more.
"
So therefore the way the New Microsoft licence works is I can install 2 copies on my network server and then any two PCs in my house can boot a copy over the network.
Is that not different to the way it actually works which is:
You buy two copies of Microsoft for your home network. You may only install each copy on to one nominated machine, irrespective of the number of copies in use at any one time and the number of machines you have. You must use a matching CD to restore a faulty machine and it may stop working at random due to hardware upgrades.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. (Einstein)
just install and enjoy.
Thank god for the Internet! Until today, I had never heard of anyone enjoying Windows 95.
---
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Hmmm. I thought when I installed Linux it was an upgrade. Oops, your are right, I had to spend 24.95 for my favorite flavor, but not to Microsoft.
The truth shall set you free!
DAMN IT! Don't give them ideas!
Next thing you know the power company is gonna want me to pay every time a turn on a light (or a computer). The phone company will want me to pay for each phone call I make; more to further away places, too. And then the cable company will want me to pay for each view of major movies.
All that would totally suck, so please, don't give them any ideas!
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
if what you said is true, then it will be a piece of cake to crack, all one has to do is trap the traffic that is sent to whoever, and modify the PID and MAC. with sligth modification to natd plus libnet, this can be thrown up in an hour or less. :-)
------ Curiosity killed the cat. {satisfaction brought it back | it didn't die ignorant | lack of it is killing mankind
Welcome to the world of Microsoft my dear.
;-(
When they do shit like this it is only to make you buy something.
MS has released a network licence manager recently. So I guess you will just have to go an buy it
Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
http://www.sigsegv.cx/
Only the MS version anyway. Dr DOS for non commercial use and free dos are free for the download.
The truth shall set you free!
/. is a commercial entity. goto slashdot.com
Im sure there will be a crack for this within a few days of its release. If not before..
Define "same" machine? What if I upgrade the CPU? Would that invalidate the current license? What about upgrading the motherboard? What about flashing the BIOS? Certainly some sort of machine fingerprinting would have to be done for this to work. And if so, what level of fingerprinting?
Where this becomes dangerous is if the hardware manufacturers start making motherboards which will only run a particular Windows licence. Then Linux and the other free OSes are frozen out completely.
Since when has copy protection stopped the net community? Doesn't anyone remember the CSS case? The code was cracked in less than 24 hours. What about when Adobe introduced the 'dongle' protection, and it too was cracked within 24 hours of first release. I'm also tempted to mention software releases such as 3D Max and all of the Checkpoint products, both which use the clearinghouse method for key authentication, and both have cracks for all of their software located on thousands of websites across the world. I do not promote the use of such cracks, but I do know as a registred user of many products that support such tactics, I use cracks from time to time to save myself lots of time (ever buy a piece of software 'cough, cough ARCSERVE, cough, cough') and have to wait a week to get it running because the clearinghouse site is so busy they can't process your 'automatic online' registration?
-Sternn
What if I have N exactly identical machines? This is possible to do with plex86 and probably even vmware.
Oh look... the guest OS is trying to get the CPU serial number, or the NIC MAC address, or the PCI device list. Oh look... all these parameters are specified in the virtual machine config file.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
This isn't as big a deal as everyone thinks.
Seeing as everything has moved to a ".net" strategy (it will do all data transmissions via the internet), we can easily circumvent what is essentially an extremely trivial protection scheme.
We drop said box on a closed off LAN with no external access, and do some packet sniffing. See what data the installation is trying to send to where, then once we figure out what it wants to hear, setup a daemon on a local box, pretending to be the 'clearinghouse' server.
Problem solved.
p.s. I do pay for most of the software I use, such as Win95, Paint Shop Pro, 4Dos, Quick View Plus, etc.
The problem is that the courts and lawyers that have more money than you are winning in the courts. your rights mean nothing to the courts and lawyers, and they will gladly trample on you / make an example of you for the good of the hive\b\b\b\b country.
yes, you are right, but the courts do NOT work that way, and they will never work that way as long as it is nothing but a good-ol-boy network of lawyers.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
MS doesn't care here. They would like to not sell to end users. They sell to OEM's and let them handle the end users issues. This will hurt the DELL's and Gateways much more than Microsoft. Wanna bet Dell, HP, & Gateway increase support for Linux? Support costs money and this is part of why they provide little support to non MS OS'es. With much increased MS support costs, alternates become viable.
The truth shall set you free!
So now we've identified the target as the corporate buyers - how do we tell them this is a bad thing? Moving to a new OS requires extensive training (especially for all-MS shops who have "standardized" on MS Office, Outlook, Exchange, NT, ASP, etc...) -- most pointy-haired types don't go for that very well.
.Net, sources said. (Emphasis added)
I agree that large corporate customers are the ones who are most likely to be able to influence Microsoft issue. Of course for them to get involved it's going to have to cost them money. The yahoo article states:
Microsoft plans to deliver WPA in all 32-bit versions of Whistler except those sold to volume-licensing customers and the so-called "Royalty OEM initial install images" provided to PC makers, said sources close to the company. Microsoft is expected to add similar anti-piracy technology to Office 10 and Visual Studio
That pretty much takes the large corporate customers out of the picture. Management doesn't want to look like they are pro software piracy. Intelectual property issues are very touchy subjects with large companies in my recent experience. Not much of the management of these large corporations are going to want to pressure Microsoft over this when Micorsoft seems to be willing to exempt them from the problem. It will still effect their home PCs, but they probably just call up dell when they want a new PC anyway, and the cost of buying the OS upgrade wouldn't phase them much anyway.
They're probably frustrated that they never seem to have the latest and greatest OS as it is now. They would likely think that an OS subscription which keeps them up to date it a good thing.
Most of the people who have the influence to pressure Microsoft make enough money that the $100 for the Microsoft OS upgrades just doesn't bother them that much. Using M$ software is familliar to them, and it's worth the $ not to spend their time learning anything else, and for the most part the software does a good job of doing what they need it to do.
There are other people who will drop M$ because they don't like their business practices or don't want to pay the $. Most of those people are going to go to Linux no matter what M$ does, so what do they have to lose.
If your NIC breaks, and you replace it, why would you reinstall Windows? It's just the NIC. Your hard drive is fine.
This clearly sucks. Btw, many NICs allow the MAC-address to be changed :-)
At which point, you're not a "casual copier" anymore, are you?
Folks, it all comes down to the same reason that Nintendo went with cartridges as their main form of copy protection for the N64. (Yes, I know there are OTHER reasons, like controlling manufacturing, and recouping their investment in their fabs, but I'm talking STRICTLY about the copy protection facet, so back off.) The cartridge format makes it more difficult for the casual copier to make a copy of the game with little effort. It's all about keeping the honest people honest.
That's where Sony screwed up with the original PSX. It was WAY too easy to just drop a CD into a burner and get a working copy of it. Hell, when I bought my first CD burner, copying a PSX disc was the FIRST thing I did, just to see if it worked.
Micrsoft understands that determined pirates are always going to find away around the copy protection. Microsoft is just making it so that the act of copying the software can't be mindless.
Do they have the right to say I can't upgrade or replace broken parts on the machine by claiming it's a new machine needing a new copy? Have you ever replaced a motherboard because the keyboard port died? Have you ever decided to upgrade it at that time because the original is no longer available? At what time does it become a "new machine"? On many machines the NIC and video are part of the motherboard. Keeping the old one is not an option.
The truth shall set you free!
Does the software cost more than $100 ? Consider that if you don't buy the software with a new computer, microsoft tends to charge a lot more. If you are running windows already, would you really notice ? (If they only check at installation time, you don't have to run the virtual PC when you are using it, anyway.)
In any case, the point is that this remains an option that would be very hard for microsoft to close. If this is the only way to pirate microsoft's stuff (unlikely, because people will figure out how to crack it and make copies that can be installed on anything) then people will do it.
Microsoft probably understands this; I don't think that they are so stupid as to imagine that they can stop the professionals. I think this is just further evidence that they view much of the legitimate use of properly purchased copies of windows as fair targets. Being able to install the software "on at most one computer at a time, copies for back up only" is not restrictive enough for them.
It would probably be a great service to the windows world to make widely available some easy method of getting around machine-specific installation. But why encourage people to not switch to something else ?
Says who? Luddites may think that only physical objects has any monetary value. If so, why should a university professor earn more per hour than a McDonald's burger flipper? The only difference is the value attributed to the professor's accumulated knowledge.
Go read www.gnu.org. Especially the stuff on intellectual property.
Yes, I consider GNU to be an authority on someone's right to what they have made - though intangible in nature - in much the same way I consider NAMBLA an authority on whether having sex with children is OK... NOT!
If they want to turn intellectual pursuits into hobbies you perform after coming home from your traditional job, by all means - until they enforce that, I prefer making a living based on my skills, even if what I produce is electronic in nature.
And to further address the point: Though I disagree with Bertrand Meyer on a lot, his essay on the ethics of free software is worth a read to counter the GNU hippies.
It boils down to how someone are compensated for their efforts, whether the costs associated with creating intangibles (information) should be shared by those benefiting from it, and - apparently - to what extent all for-profit corporations are evil bastards, aka. whether GNU is an academic ivory tower with no contact with the "real world" where the rest of us make a living.
"...and I am now the proud owner of a number of unopened Windows OS's, waiting for the day when Microsoft will give me my money back."
Check your EULAs. You can't return 'em to MS, you have to go through the OEM. If you haven't used the copy of Windows that came pre-installed on your machine, the OEMs legally must allow you to return the unused OS for a refund.
Email me (remove the sheep noises from my email, above) if you need any advice on how to do this - I still have the emails I sent emachines when I returned a pre-installed copy of Win98.
reverend lola
the titanium sheep
provider of steel wool
The pricing scheme is probably dependend on the number of bugs in a give product.
;-)
So $400 buys you 63551 bugs, $100 maybe 1000 and so on.
I've used a couple of OS's since I left windows, namely IRIX and linux. Generally speaking once you have the system up and running you can just forget about it as it works (my desktop has an uptime of one or two months usually, and shut downs are usually not because of the OS).
On the odd occasion that I need to pick around in the internals I generally find that the documentation for unix systems is a lot better as well, so its a lot easier. And most of the internal picking around has been to get the OS to do something complex, rather than just getting it to run...
Phil
Yep. I buy my computers as discrete parts and assemble them, so as to get my particular picky choice of hardware.. one of the parts I don't buy anymore is MS-Windoze. (I run Linux).
OT: So when is SuSE/Slackware/RedHat/etc coming out with a 2.4 release?
---dragoness
(FYI, IANAPP - I am not a professional programmer)
Assuming that this OS needs to be connected to a network to be installed, somebody could create a local network, spoofing a microsoft authentication website. Not saying it would be easy, but it would be possible. A possible crack might be a simple (small) VMware MS-DOS machine with all the necessary networking and files.
I asked them for an ISA modem and decided to ship me a PCI winmodem too. When I finally got them to admit their mistake they said they would refund my money and never did. Now I know it's the company and not me...
Find me a mobo manufacturer or a second-tier OEM that ships systems with PCI-64. Or a fuzzy SMP board like Olivetti used to make. Or will give me a nice soft BIOS like Compaq, allowing me to override the onboard BIOS on some expansion cards. Not going to happen. But convenience and hardware support are the major reasons. If my mobo starts flaking when I add a second processor, I don't want to have to play phone and email tag with Asus or Abit for weeks to be told there's a BIOS issue.. I want to be able to call the manufacturer and say 'this is fucked, this is the configuration, now unfuck it.' Nuff said.
.sig: Now legally binding!
Doesn't work. The server is the one that authenticates the key, if the key doesn't match, the server doesn't let you on.
Now, the server can run that hack, and they often do, because many people (myself included) don't like the idea of a product that you can't use without permission, even after you paid for it.
It is a USB joystick... However, should I have to upgrade my entire ($90) OS just to use one joystick? My system came with a pair of USB controlled speakers. I didn't have to upgrade to Win98 to use them. And its not like a joystick is a terribly complex device that needs anything beyond basic OS USB support (which Win95 OSR2 has, btw.) Take a look at the Sidewinder USB driver for BeOS. It's OSS, and simple enough to understand that I was able to make it support my Presicion Pro after looking at the code for 15 minutes. It's *not* a terribly complex piece of software.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Right. This is why I own several hundred dollars of MS stuff. (Mice, keyboards, joysticks, Windows NT, you name it.) I didn't pirate Windows 98 because I hate MS (I'm the biggest fan of NT4 and DirectX that you'll meet). I didn't pirate it because it had features that I needed (It didn't) I pirated it because I gave MS $90 for a product, and it ended up not working with an MS product that I'd already (indirectly through Dell) paid for. It wasn't because Win95 OSR2 didn't support USB (it does) it wasn't because there was a compatiblity issue (there wasn't) it was because MS tried to screw users over by playing an upgrade trick. I don't like being screwed over. It's not about free stuff not working (I haven't reinstalled NT since I hosed NTFS) its not about wanting more features than I'm willing to pay for, its about not being screwed over when you are an otherwise loyal MS customer.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
It was a 1 year gap between the release of OSR2, and the release of the Precision Pro USB. The *functionality* difference was even less. Win95 OSR 2 *supports* USB. My speakers are USB and they worked fine under OSR2. I would have been perfectly happy paying for new features. (And I did when I bought NT.) It was an artificial trick to get me to upgrade.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
If you're in a major urban area like Toronto, you can do so easily. Likely internet sites too. Most component vendors also sell systems. They key is not to ask brand name vendors for a system without an OS.
Got a OEM version of Office 2K Small Business©©©after starting program 20 times, will not activate until you register it© But if you decline to register online, it just prints out a form for you to fill out and send to Microsoft, and basically trusts that you really did send it in©
Why is the universe here? -Well, where else would it be?
Yeah, and that is why I put the note there that you *CAN* use both at the same time. I don't because I would simply buy another CD key but I have tried it and it does work. Sometimes it kicks back with "CD key in use" but very often it simply works. won.net was VERY UNSTABLE for a long time so perhaps they have a number of server farms in different areas that sometimes cannot verify if a key is in use in another area.
Expect days after the release of Whistler, a crack for the registration process.
Stuff like this really pisses me off, and not only when it's applied to product registration... too many apps are taking for granted that a user is always connected, and they simply don't function, or lose functionality if you are not connected and talking to the appropriate 'authority' (ie: these MS clearing-houses)... also, things like this have the capability to transparently send info about your computer (and anything that may be on it, private or otherwise) without you knowing... just out of sheer curiousity I'd like to see someone implement something similar to tcpdump, but that attempts to track traffic back to it's originating app... it'd be interesting to see what Real Networks, Adobe, and Windows apps are talking about during their frequent call-backs....
Of course you do! Well, at least in the US and several other countries (I wouldn't know if you happened to live in Elbonia)the pre-installed windows has been omnipresent. With your new brand computer (dell, gateway, whatever) you will have no choice but to get a windows CD, even if you did not want it. The only way to get out of it was to build it yourself (as I did), or use no-name shops that will do it for you in a rather under-the-table fashion.
Even these last ones, for a while were threatened (don't know if it actually happened) with a charge from MS for 'lost revenue', who automatically assumed that the shop preintalled windows or gave them a pirate CDR.
This has started, little by little, to change. Linux shops (like, oh, I don't know, VA Linux) don't have to pay the windows tax. Even more recently, some brands starting to 'deduct' $80 or so from the list price if you did not choose to install windows (the tiny Espresso, of which I got one, had this option).
I am the unhappy customer of some five windows licenses, of assorted versions and formats, just because of the computers I've bought for myself and family in the recent years. I did not choose to buy any of them. MS effectively helped themselves to my wallet, plucked out the money and say "thank you, here is your shiny-hologram-protected certificate of authenticity and CD/floppies".
Now it will get interesting, when they single-handedly end the pc upgrade industry.
May you live in interesting times...
I'll go back to lurking now.
Carlos.
--
If you want to live in a country ruled by religion, move to Iran.
This is not going to motivate people to switch away from Windows when they buy a new box, because the new box is going to come with the latest Windoze.
What about people who are thinking of upgrading a preexisting box from Win x to Win x+1? Will they throw up their hands at this and switch to Linux instead? Probably the reason they need to upgrade from Win x is that their favorite game (or other software) requires Win x+1. Unless their game is available for Linux (which it probably isn't), Linux isn't going to work for them.
For most people, it's not Windoze versus Linux, it's Windoze versus MacOS. Sorry, but you can't switch your x86 from Windoze to MacOS.
MS are the masters of forcing people to stay on the upgrade treadmill. This is, unfortunately, a very smart move.
The Assayer - free-information book reviews
Find free books.
>
> will it be a 900 number? or will i be put on hold for three hours?
Yes. To both of your questions.
To cut a long story short I had a lot of grief and used the CD to reinstall Windows a few times successfully. Then I decided that I wanted to install Linux and repartitioned my hard drive. I also slapped on BIOS update.
After I fdisked the drive clean from Linux I made the Windows partition with DOS fdisk. I ran the installation cd and it said that it could not be installed on my computer. I couldn't get at the cabs because they had been compressed into a propreity format single file on the cd. I borrowed a friend's "real" Windows 98 cd and lo it installed fine.
This is a real nuisance and Simply (hello) haven't gotten back to me about a replacement cd that installs properly. The thing is I'm not even sure what stops the installtion cd from installing on my computer anyway...
20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
See, this is what I find interesting. Probably some of that other legal software is MS, too, right? Or do you prefer lower-priced alternatives? I, for one, am still using an academic copy of WordPerfect 8 I got when I was an undergrad.
And it made me think. I wouldn't mind upgrading to the newer MSOffice stuff, especially since it would make it easier for me to interact w/ people at work that way. But there's just no WAY i'm going to pay $299 or whatever it is for that relatively minor convenience. $60, maybe. $40, more likely. $30, almost certainly.
See, MS software is aimed at businesses. But we're not all businesses. So why don't they have a pricing scheme for the Rest Of Us? It's like some seats on airplanes are first class, and some are coach. And moreover, if 3 or 4 of the coach seats don't sell for full price, American (or whoever) essentially auctions them off to standby customers because, hey, a seat filled for half price is better than an empty seat.
And I guess I just don't understand why MS won't do the same thing. They're trying to make everyone fly first class, but we just can't (or won't) afford it. It seems like it would be to their advantage to develop a much more stratified pricing structure, perhaps based on differences in customer support and application features, so they could fill those coach seats.
You're correct in saying that the comparison between the M$ copy protection and the Q3A copy protection is not accurate, but I have to add that you have a major problem if the master server goes down for any reason in a game like Q3A. When the master server goes down, clients can no longer authenticate, so they can not join ANY games, anywhere. Granted the master server doesn't go down often, but it has happened to me a couple of times. I only play quake3 a few times a month also...
So now Microsoft will have the ultimate hostid->user data base. Say the feds get hold of a compiled program of MSword document with a Windows ID tag. All they need to do is make a little call to Redmond and they get the address of the person who registered that copy of windows.
Code and documents can now be traced to their source.
Unless of course you lie to Microsoft when registering the computer. Make a good record of the lie so that you can repeat it when moving the software.
I wonder if Microsoft will commercialize document tracing. For $10 find out who really wrote that code/document.
Heh... I had a burning desire to play an old DOS game recently (Elite: First Encounters) problem was, I didn't have the floppies, nor the game anymore. (Yes I did buy both DOS and the game previously)
I had a look around on the Internet and not only did I find three Image files containing the disks to MS-DOS6.22, but I also found the three disks for the game (and the patch that was later released)...
It just goes to show.
As for this "feature" in Whistler. I doubt it will apply to the OEM packaged version, more likely just the retail version.
but I seem to remember something about the pentium3 serial #'s, how convenient. MS to AMD: Sorry, our OS only recognizes the Pentium serial #, no, you can't sue us for being a monopoly, that has already happened. What an interesting conspiracy!
Sig?
Put the same NIC in all of your boxes while you install. Then remove that NIC as soon as you're in the clear. Done. Problem solved. Next?
In fact the more I think about it, I'd better head for the hills right now. *Shudder* :^)
Eric
"Seven Deadly Sins? I thought it was a to-do list!"
My GF's computer, a brand new Dell laptop, had the serial # on the case. My company recently bought a bunch of used IBM machines, which had the serial number on the case. I've seen recent vintage Gateways and Compaqs with the serial number... seems to me that they at least are getting customers ready for it.
ZOMG I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS ON MACINTOSH VERSUS WINDOWS, VI VERSUS EMACS, AND HOW YOU'RE NOT A DORK
So much, also, for high security installations (where any connectivity, whatsoever, with the outside world is verboten)... without the ability to connect to the clearinghouse to "authenticate" the product key, they too will be unable to use their license.
.NET products.
I imagine that this piracy measure is intended to prevent the massive copying of Microsoft's home operating systems. The business versions (Professional, Server, etc) of Whistler will most definitely have a workaround for high security installations. Remember - in most business environments, installations are conducted over a network. There will have to be a workaround.
If you have a problem with this type of anti-piracy solution, then prepare to abandon all Microsoft products. I would not be surprised to see this type of protection implemented in all
As some users have posted - I am also interested in how this technology works... And I'm sure a crack will be available prior to the official release.
On another note, I'm prepared to be modded with a -96. Slashdot is supposed to be a community of open-minded individuals - then why can't most of the users open their minds to the fact that Microsoft does occasionally make some excellent software and the fact that they're one of the most innovative companies in the industry.
You mean Do Not Make Illegal Copies of This Disk isn't working!?!?
Send your friends messages of love at fuck-you.org
I can't wait to catch first 'registration' traffic on the network, and update rules on firewalls.
"What do you mean you only can't reach Whistler registration site, and other sites are fine?"
Damn, can't wait for that...
I do give him credit, one for being so rich and two for his total domination of the sheeple. I mean, what so they care about not being able to install another PC with the operating system. They are just happy that the nice people a the 'computer store' did it for them. If they can play solitare on this PC every Sunday for the next tens years, they're happy.
The best solution for me is to continue to use the free stuff.
I love the smell of Karma in the morning
But the system is going to be non-invasive, and all of the arguments we're having have already been had within MS.
While that may be so, the motives of the arguers here and those at MS are almost certainly quite different. It's rare for MS to care about the same things as its customers.
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
In every physical product you can simply toss thos demographic collection^h^h^h^h^h^h... warranty registration cards away and still use the product, completely anonymous to the manufacturer. However, with mandatory electronic authentication anonymity will be gone. Even if you try to block your caller-id packets with *67, 1-800 numbers still get your data. Even if you fill in bogus personal information (which I forsee M$ will interpret as fraud and thus a crime) they at least have your IP address and date and time of your connection which can easily be cross-referenced with your ISP (one litte subpoena is all it takes).
Now imagine Windows Update. Delete that cookie from your hard drive and you must re-authenticate or "NO SECURITY PATCH FOR YOU."
What was that word that judge used to describe Bill Gates? Ahhhhh yessssss NAPOLEANIC!!!!!
I know...it's supposed to sarcasm and humor and all. But...
"Bring a proof to class tomorrow. Analogy is always suspect, but that one is close to the truth." _STARSHIP_TROOPERS_
It will be a 1-900 number where you'll get put on hold for 3h. Especially if you call from overseas.
I hadn't known there were so many idiots in the world until I started using the Internet -Stanislaw Lem
ah, Autocad 2000 can use the same activation code on multiple machines, over and over again... Architecture firms are pretty bad about copying this software, as it's very very expensive...
fslg503-985-8686503-985-8686503-985-8686503-985-8
Microsoft does not want us (or anyone) to buy Windows, or Office, directly from them. As other posters have said, who's really going to pay $600 for a new copy of Office? Or $300 for Windows? Can you imagine paying a fucking GRAND just to word-process your resume, or send an email? Neither can anyone else.
What Microsoft does want is for us to get all this software from OEMs. Think about it (you know they've thought about it, and they're not stupid) - every move they make, every change, makes it more difficult for Joe Consumer to buy a few parts, build a computer, and load M$ software on it. Why?
Like many, I know that one of the biggest advantages of building my own boxen is upgrading cheaply to stay on the curve, rather than spend $2,500 every couple years on a new Dell. M$ wants to stop this.
Short-term money isn't the issue with them, and it never has been. More than most US companies, M$ thinks long-term, and long-term for them is one and only one goal: domination. They want every piece of hardware that boots to boot into some flavor of Windows, and run some suite of M$ apps. The best way to do this is to remove any user choice at all - you buy a new machine, you get it with Windows. OEMs are easy to control (the "Make them an offer they can't refuse" type of control), and they only have to control a few to control the industry.
IMNHO, this attitude will bite them in the ass, and hard. They're saying, in effect, "We don't care if we control every computer, but we'll damn sure control every computer with our software on it." Even M$ isn't big enough to do this, espectially with Apple making a comeback and *nux heating up.
Ob. Princess Leia quote: "The more you tighten your grip, the more systems will slip through your fingers."
question: is control controlled by its need to control?
answer: yes
This isn't as much "normalization" as it is "don't take so many drugs when you're designing tables."
The crackers will hack out the authentication (there have been beta copies of Whistler floating all over for months, you think they haven't looked at the code?) and yet again, the only person inconvienced by this will be the legitimate consumer.
That must have been before 6.22, as I have a 6.22 certificate of authenticity! Still sealed in its plastic-wrap!
(Seriously...)
--Ask a silly person, get a silly answer.
Well that's a relief. I'll stop worrying about it then.
does this change anything?
I don't think so. It just continues the current decay of the MS empire. Each desperate move like this further degrades their public good will.
Fanatically anti-fanatical
So now you have to keep the NIC and CD in the same box.
:)
Thank GOD for the NIC is much more resistant
MS' consumer pricing model;
get an unbreakable lock on the business market, let the consumers migrate to Linux if they want. Who cares about those cheap ass bastards anyway?
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
How else can MS stop piracy? Right now you can go and download from a warez irc channel windows ISOs for all versions of windows, serial numbers, etc. I in fact know some people who have been using Win2k and Win ME (and MS Office
This would be_easy_ for M$ to implement, as they already have it on their newest versions of Office 2000. User/Serial gets transmitted to the clearinghouse and ties it to the machine...reuse of the "confirmation" number results in a 30-use window to get a new version/confirmation.
Winter is Coming.
> next they'll have us sign our validation key with some biometric information
Great. Just what we need.
Windows pirating techniques timeline:
Win3.X - floppies
Win95 - borrowed CD
Win2K - CD-R, borrowed CD key
Win2010 - DVD-R, recorded voiceprint
Win2015 - xDVD-RW, fake fingerprints
Win2025 - MiniOpticalDisc, duplicated retinal pattern
Win2040 - MicroOpticalDisc, stolen tissue sample
Win2055 - biochip, false brainwave scan
Drinking will help us plan!
Just do it!
AC is AC
I think you have it backwards. Most people only assume that they need to have Windows at home because they saw it at work first. And since it's pretty much impossible to buy a non-Apple PC that doesn't already have Windows installed, they don't really have a choice anyway. Then what they do is borrow the CD from work so they can install Office at home. All MS is doing, since they've pretty much sold someone a licensed copy of their OS with each machine that leaves the computer superstore, is making sure that no one upgrades for free.
I do not have a signature
Your comparison is way off. You're talking about interoperability of products that are over 50 years apart in age, whereas the above poster was talking about two products made a couple years apart. All he was looking for was a simple driver to get his joystick to work under (presumably) Win95 instead of having to upgrade to Win98.
Your truck comparison would only work if the poster owned something like ENIAC and he was trying to get his MS Joystick to work with it.
Bill Clinton: Pimp we can believe in. - The Shirt!!!
Now, in the Beta newsgroup, Micrsoft has specifically told us not to get our panties in a bunch ... most of the internet reports are WRONG (including mine above) in some form or another ... no one has it right yet, and not to believe them.
A more effective course of action might have been for them to use this newsgroup to disseminate accurate information, rather than trying to squelch half-accurate rumors.
Picture this: You purchase Whistler and put it on your PC. It mostly works. You're happy, Bill is happy. Then, your motherboard or other hardware part dies in a horrible plane crash. You buy a new computer, and, since you already own a legit copy of Whistler and don't want to purchase a second license of the same item, you decide to put Whistler on the new PC. Perfectly legal, since it's your copy, and you only have it running on one PC. Will it allow this? Say I want to swap out my motherboard, or put in a new 95 gig hard drive in, in place of my extremely tiny 30 gig.. can I do this? It seems that as long as you don't change a thing - it'll work.. bad news for people like me who like to bulid and upgrade their own home PCs.
{} ------ When I think of a good sig, I'll put it here
They strangle us more and more and poke us for every cent they can, even after out transaction (buying the software) is done. "unlimited use software" is something they want to forever do away with. Like DIVX, it'll be pay per run, pay per page printed, per more for extra performance regardless of how fast your CPU is. And they pass laws to make cracking their schemes a felony with 10 years of jail and million dollar fines? Excuse me? When did cracking get to be on a par with murder, rape, and armed robbery? I'm sorry, I take it back. Many murderers and rapists receive LESS punishment than evil w4r3z d00dz.
And as they tighten the screws, we hack back, and they have the gall to bitch about pirates? Getting screwed is a two way street. When fucking photoshop costs $1500, you bet I'm going to pirate it. Fuck you. There's no justification for that. Your counterarguments are invalid. I need this software to survive. Without it, I can't acquire job skills I need to get hired.
So don't run Evil Software? The average Joe's PC won't even boot without windows. And it comes with all this extortionware pre-installed. Wiping out the pre-installed software and installing freeware is to the average user like the power company telling him to build his own diesel electric generator. Totally unreasonable. Totally. And you know, the actions, policies, and fees charged by utility companies is heavily regulated because they are monopilies.
To software companies: Stop it, or face legal regulation. I await your choice.
Ack. That description just made Whistler look good.
Now THAT would be a juicy target for the script kiddies around the world.
Imagine gazilions of Windows "Installations" calling home for authorization.
It will be fun for M$ to keep that box running.
They will have all kinds of "electricity" and "weather" and "router" problem, like in the security contest W2K vs Linux.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's all just bits and bytes and copying hurts nobody.
Doesn't matter. The original poster's intent is simply juvenile. Don't like MS? Don't use the software. Can't do something with Linux or BE that you can under Windows? Too fucking bad: code it yourself or go without. Isn't that the whole point of the Open Source movement?
Or is it "Steal from anyone we don't like because the free stuff isn't good enough"?
Eric
"Seven Deadly Sins? I thought it was a to-do list!"
Does it mean you can move the license to another machine, as long as you move a network card along with it?
How? Snail mail? Carrier pigeon? Or will Whistler's initial install boot into a "limited mode" that can access MS.NET with a modem to deliver the ID# and "hardware identifier" (what exactly do they mean by that?) to some remote server, which transmits the required key back?
It seems to me there'd be holes large enough to drive a truck through if they do it over the net, and delivering keys via mail would piss customers off to no end. ("I bought this shiny new MS software and I have to wait 4 to 6 weeks for the key to arrive so I can USE it?") Or maybe they've forsaken the market for ordinary users with WinXX who'd like to buy an upgrade off the store shelves, yet have no Net connection or a really awful 14.4 modem. "Whistler 2001! Only OEMs and large businesses have the resources to get it installed reliably!"
You'd think they'd learn from the N+1 previous copy-protection disasters. It doesn't stop the 31337 KR4CK3RZ one bit, and it irritates normal users. I have a feeling this is just a scary fluff piece, designed to draw hits to ZD/Yahoo/MSNBC and such.
Give a monkey a brain and he'll swear he's the center of the universe.
http://www.milnephotography.com/woo/whistler_crack s.html
Not very hard if you ask me.
Of course that's what they're saying. What would you expect? Full disclosure? I don't expect that to happen until sometime after it ships, and someone puts a packet sniffer on it to see what's being transmitted to the empire. Even then, MS will deny that it's a big deal. And all the drones will believe it.
Dunno, seems to me that they've let casual copying go in just long enough. Let everyone get nice and dependent on Windows (fully invested in whatever data formats, database servers, applications, etc.), and then jump up the efforts to prevent unauthorised copying.
MS's big problem moving forward is that the market is so saturated with PCs, and that the current version of Windows2000/ME is likely to be quite sufficient for most (Windows) users for at least the next 2 years, they've got to maximize their revenue streams any way they can without drawing unwanted attention to the pricing of their products. Making certain that everyone who eventually does upgrade pays for it, is one of the few ways to ensure this. Of course, I'd be willing to bet that the street price of the upgrade version of Whistler is going to be something more than US$90.
Where the value of X-Mailer: is the true measure of a man...
I was wondering how this would impact VMWare users, but it seems to me this is another reason to us it, since basically you can install IDENTICAL virtual PCs on as many Linux (or Windows) boxes as you want.
you have to wonder.. a LOT of eyes see this type of stuff before it leaves redmond. why does this seem like a good idea? for the same reason nobody told the beatles that apple corps was a bad idea: how do you say no to a baby the size of god?
Back when I was under the thumb of The Man, I actually memorized a Win98 OEM CD key. I had twenty machines to ops-check before the day-after-Thanksgiving one year, so I scribbled down the CD key from one of the machines on pieces of masking tape which went up at each of the four workstations I was using to get the job done. By the time all the machines were done, I had the stupid thing committed to memory...so there are now dozens of Win98 boxen all over town using BCP3V-3RR6D-Q8BK8-YRKP2-T43R8. Sometimes I scare even myself. :-)
20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
Ford makes good trucks
Okay, maybe I made it sound more complex than it really is. It hardly seemed like a hassle at all when I installed Mathematica. Then again, back then I was young and naive and I didn't read slashdot.
First off, as always, it's good that this is being brought to our attention essentially right off the bat. Although there will probably ALWAYS be hardcore MS users (Disclaimer: IANAHCMSU), we're not really constrained as much by OS as we think. While Linux is still developing its multimedia muscles, we have the Mac. Sure, they're expensive, but all you really need is one... :P, and Linux for the rest.
Now, since I'm a GCM, I'll delve into the technical part. It's been stated that MS will track computers via, among other things, MAC address. Apparently, this happens during the registration process. Well, what if you don't register?
Now, some MS drone's sure to have thought of this eventuality, so maybe the OS will force you to register. Well, in that case, no registration == totally non-usable/partially cripped OS. *BANG* -- That's the sound of MS shooting themselves in the foot. The Technical Support issues in such a case would be overwhelming, IMO.
Well, suppose that MS makes the OS surrupticiously(sp?!) register itself over any available internet connection? FIREWALL it! Setup your handy Sonicwall, Cisco Router, or even ZoneAlarm to deny the bloody registration agent access to the internet.
And if all else fails, SOMEONE will hack the damn thing. Garunteed. We will see a patch to "mswhst_reg.exe" within a WEEK that kills the damn thing.
Never fear. We will prevail. No matter WHAT MS does.
"I threw the coherency out the nearest airlock."
I doubt that M$ will ever give away their OS for no cost, but I would agree that a discount is in order. Seriously, looking at NECX now:
Microsoft Windows ME: $173.95
Microsoft Windows 2000: $278.95
Windows isn't worth that kind of money. You can still find legitimate copies that are cheaper, but the point is that this is just way too expensive. Especially now that Linux is starting to make entry into the desktop market, people won't continue to shell out this kind of money for an OS that is so intrusive. I've put up with a lot of crap from M$ in the past, but this entire licensing system is where I'll probably draw the line. I refuse to register with such a service.
But back to the cost of the OS, if they sold it for $50 or so, this would be more reasonable. Not only would they sell more copies at a lower price, but there would also be an increase in the percentage of legit copies floating around. By charging this much just for an OS, I hope M$ isn't surprised by the number of piracy.
You may say that I would be a prime suspect if I used Whistler, but this is not true. I'm never going to buy Whistler because it makes me dependent upon their database. I don't like the idea of MS looking over my shoulder, no matter what the incentive. I don't care if every company I work for continues to use Winblows. I'm going to maintain my 98 machines until they are completely obsolete and continue with Linux. Congradualtions MS and manufacturers of MS compatable products, you have lost a customer.
From AP news, Microsoft authentication servers get hacked. When ever you attempt to authenticate your new version of Windows, your computer pulls down a new virus that makes your hard drive spin so fast that all the heads crash.
Hmmm now that would be funny!
hmm... for fun I enjoy launching DDoS attacks against 127.87.42.5
I'm sure that the corporations and their Admins will like this feature. To setup/resetup a PC they either will have to move the PC's in front of the firewall or they will have to open their firewalls.
- Yasa
I am happy about it too, we will see how many people are left supporting Windows when suddenly they are forced to follow the rules - and really that is the majority of people this is going to hurt.
I had to deal with this issue at work when reinstalling Publisher 2000. We use one machine for a multitude of graphics programs (conversions, items from out of office and things going out of the office for publication). Upgraded the hard drive, and was forced to re-register. That is an extra 30 minutes of my life I will never get back. It will be a happy day when I can start installing Red Hat on end user workstations!!!I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm, and three or more is a congress -J Adams
Your comparison is way off. You're talking about interoperability of products that are over 50 years apart in age, whereas the above poster was talking about two products made a couple years apart. All he was looking for was a simple driver to get his joystick to work under (presumably) Win95 instead of having to upgrade to Win98.
Oh, you mean like how my 4 year old (I think, maybe 5) 2/4 gig Ditto Tape Drive WON'T work under Win ME? Would THAT be a valid comparison?
FWIW, I did actualy buy the $50 Win ME upgrade. But I'm ticked my tape drive no longer works.
Merde, il pleut encore!
How hard would it be for a manufacturer to start selling NICs with a custom MAC address (if this doesn't exist already)?
That way you and your friends can all get a NIC with the same MAC address and share a copy of Windows. You could only have one of these NICs on each LAN though of course. But it would still allow some piracy...
Or actually, couldn't you just move the NIC around that the copy of Windows was originally installed with? Would Whistler keep checking the MAC after the installation or is it a one-time thing?
I can see it now -- "here Fred, have my copy of Whistler. Take this CD-R and this NIC to install."
Carl
Vote Libertarian
Why don't they just ship it on DVD and put a unique BCA number on every disc? They can tie the COA# to the BCA#. Most people with a new enough machine to run Whistler will have a DVD-ROM drive, otherwise they're pretty cheap for a new one. Sure, some people will still share discs, but this will be a pain if they need to produce the disc for updates (like Office 2000 does).
But no, this is really a step towards the subscription model that MSFT wants to move to.
If I steal your car, I have your car, and you don't have your car anymore. BUT, if I use my CD burner to make a copy of your Win 98 CD, then I have Win 98 but you still have the original Win 98 CD.
What's really happened is that Microsoft (and all middle men) have lost out on a sale. Something that is much more intangible (and harder to track) than a stolen truck. Which is why it is so difficult to stop.
I'm afraid that while this strategy will
bolster short term profits, it will ultimately
hasten the worldwide move away from Microsoft
products.
There are lots of "casual" users of M$ products
who use their stuff because it is essentially
"free". We also end up learning so much about
it that we end up using it professionally, where
microsoft makes the vast majority of their revenues.
Without these free "learning" copies, I will be
far more motivated to go out and start using
stuff that _is_ free, and completely abandon the
increasingly bloated and expensive platforms that M$ pushes out their doors.
M$ didn't learn a thing from Java. It's a fun language to program in, but more importantly, it's completely free and well supported. Anyone can go out and download a few manuals and a JDK and learn the language absolutely free of charge. We eventually grow up and start using it professionally, in contexts where Sun can actually make money of us (by selling enterprise class hardware, software, and consulting services).
I've already got one foot out the door, and when this becomes official, I will be gone. Stupid stupid stupid.
jc
"Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things that never were and ask why not." --George Bernard
Me too.
My Winboxen run 98SE, and all boot to DOS, not 'Doze. I can swap hard drives on removable racks between a 486/66, a P166, a couple of I-Openers, and my C550. They're like big-ass floppies whenever I want to shovel files from one box to another
Advantage 1: I never have to worry about plug-and-pray "detecting" new hardware when all I want to do is move some files.
Advantage 2: Backups and reinstallations are trivial. Norton Ghost under raw DOS, or dd under linux.
Advantage 3: I've seen a friend's box unable to boot due to registry corruption. Me? I'm always guaranteed to have access to the 4-5 copies of USER.DAT and SYSTEM.DAT stored in the SYSBCKUP directory. And I'm guaranteed that they'll never be overwritten because DOS doesn't know they exist!
WinME?
Disadvantage 1: Hide DOS (taking away the only "good" thing about W9x as far as I'm concerned)
Disadvantage 2: "System Restore" means "your hard drive thrashes and is one hell of a performance bottleneck" (or "you can't actually do anything to your own box until you disable it")
Disadvantage 3: Lessee, more DRM crap in WinMediaPlayer, more bloat in the browser...
Whistler:
All the WinME bugs, plus "phone home" copy protection, plus (I forget whether this went into Win2K or not) all that crap about "certified" drivers as part of the efforts to keep me away from the WAV data on my sound card... feh. I can't be bothered anymore.
For that matter, WinME sounded so lame I couldn't be bothered to pirate it just to satisfy my curiosity. Whistler sounds like more of the same. My home Winboxen will stick with 98SE, and my future boxen will just migrate to Linux and FreeBSD.
Just read a post on the subject:
give M$ better options
Agreed. This isn't about piracy, it's about privacy.
Give away a smartcard reader and a serialized smartcard with every install. And (well, this is the problem with closed-source, ain't it?) require the presence of the card for activation without phoning home.
It'd also be a major step towards market acceptance of smartcard technology at the consumer level.
And unlike the guaranteed-privacy-invasive "clearinghouse" idea, at least the smartcard idea is capable of being implemented without compromising privacy.
--
Steven Murdoch.
Steven Murdoch.
web: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/sjm217/
Yes, *hardware* follows moores law, but OS's do not. Windows 98 is not really that much different that Windows 95.
Cheers,
Rick Kirkland
MS don't owe you anything. Your "seizure of goods" is no more justified than the same committed by a common thug. If you don't like their business practices, go use something else. But If you're not willing to support alternatives, don't grandstand on the moral high ground, while indulging in this thugery and expediency.
HTH,
Just curious, why did you spend the extra $100 for the full version when all you needed ws the $89 upgrade? Seems like a waste however you look at it...
Unfortunately (from MS's POV) you could lend your smart card to a friend, to let him/her install it, unless you had to swipe the card each time the software was used/booted. And that could get annoying, especially if you wanted to keep your cards in a safe place.
It also would be extremely crackable, but that's true of most such schemes.
___
__
Do ya feel happy-go-lucky, punk?
Do you have a bunch to trained monkey to create keys? Any computer-generated numbers will have a pattern, computers cannot generate truly random numbers, not even the PIV's random number generator.
1. It will still deter a lot of people, thus theoretically strengthing their bottom line.
2. When it gets cracked, they will have a legal precident under the DMCA of throwing the book at the victim of their choice, a la that dude from Norway who wrote DeCSS.
I suspect that they are primarily looking for the cultural change here, not the direct tampering with attempts to illegally copy their software.
It exists already. A number of 3com nics, in fact, allow you to set arbitrary MAC addresses.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I think protection of this sort will cut down most on small to medium businesses pirating MS products and that's a damn good thing.
Individuals who want to use windows will resort to downloading dodgy cracked copies and suchlike, while businesses will be loath to use something which could say, for example, have a trojan or orifice in it, and for which they have to actually (shock horror) search for on sites with porny pictures.
I work for a small software company, writing case-management software for solicitors, and the companies we write software for, despite being in the legal biz think nothing of buying one copy of win2000, 1 copy of office 2000, then installing them on 100 or so workstations. This is downright fucking theft!
What particularly makes me sick about their behaviour is that these companies have an annual turn-over of millions of pounds- they can easily afford to buy the requisite number of licenses, but they're too tight. This annoys me *almost* as much as those companies who keep junk faxing us with offers of microsoft cds and licenses which turn out to be pirate. (Their licenses turn out to be just colour photocopies!).
I am not biased. I like certain MS products, true; I love windows 2000, and I love Office 2000, I think DirectX (from a standardization perspective) was a damn fine idea, also COM/ACTIVE-X is phenomenal. (yeah so you have corba in linux but it's nowhere near as widely used). Visual Studio.NET (esp. when C# is used) is the best thing MS have EVER written- it blows any linux development environment/library/language out of the water and into near-Earth Orbit.
I also however love linux. Linux is different to Win2000, but I love both. There's actually nothing I need Linux for, since I play games, do office stuff and program in win32, but I appreciate the beautiful architecture of linux- treating it like a text-only adventure game as I discover the wonderful world of pipes which work, a decent command shell and so on.
So, if you don't, like me love lots of things MS have done recently, and don't want to use Windows, then don't use Windows- use linux or QNX or Plan9 or whatever, just don't bloody moan on about MS' evil world domination- you're not forced into it. And especially don't bitch about how much you hate microsoft, but then download a dodgy copy of Whistler anyway, and go round with a bloated head because you're so damn clever you get one over on MS, you're so 3l337. yeah.... whatever. And to all those people who moan on about "Windows Tax" on new machines, well duh! Build your own machine you idiots! If you're qualified enough to choose linux over windows and think yourself clever enough to be able to use it, then what's hard about plugging a few components in a mboard and fitting it into a case? Even a cappuchino (sic) monkey can put a GeForce in an AGP slot.
It's their software. They're allowed to licence it however they want. And if they need to introduce measures like this to curb illegal copying then so be it. Agree or disagree, it's their right. And I don't think it's a bad idea. People have to start getting used to the idea of paying for things. Money is what keeps us all alive. If you don't like it, go and live in a cave in the desert someplace. Would you prefer that?
When you hear a great song by Metallica you should pay for it to compensate the artist for the time and effort that goes into the song. You do this in the same way when you pay for Windows. Alot of time and effort goes in to creating a quality, industry-strength OS that performs.
Don't fool yourselves into thinking that things are going to stay "free" forever. I just don't think it works.
My $0.02 only - don't accuse me of being critical. It's my opinion. I'm entitled to one.
Cheers,
Daniel.
--
Daniel Zeaiter
daniel@academytiles.com.au
http://www.academytiles.com.au
I too have some pirate software, and prolly all of it is MS.
I look at it this way: Do you know how much friggin' money they've extorted from me through the OEM? "No sir, we will not ship this system without Windows 3.11/95/98/NT. In fact, your particular configuration comes with Office 95/97/2000 pre-installed at no extra charge. No, you can't change that either." So what do I get? Stacks of worthless copies of NT Workstation.
They owe me enough money through their predatory practices with OEMs and through their insane 'We will not refund money, even as prescribed by the EULA' policy that I don't have any qualms about my piracy. I like to look at it as 'seizure of goods for nonpayment of monies due'.
.sig: Now legally binding!
There are BOATLOADS of machines I've installed Win95 on that use 34786-oem-0017312-99809 ;-)
i forgot the part about marketshare:
with the marketshare that microsoft has right now, and with alternative OS's becoming a real factor in the game, the best thing that they could do is give the product away for free, officially or not. now, please disregard your intelligence, and pretend you are Joe Bestbuy (you don't see any problem with AOL) you want your son/nephew/girlfriend/etc to build you a computer. today, chances are that your son/nephew/goldfish will just take a windows CD that's been used more than a free hooker in a nursing home, and install it on his new computer. Joe Bestbuy doesn't have to pay anything. Joe Bestbuy is happy. Joe goes to the store, looks for the windows logo on all of his software and hardware, and makes all sorts of money for microsoft. Microsoft retains marketshare, linux loses, microsoft is happy. Now, in the event that well worn windows CD becomes unusable in future versions, Joe Bestbuy's son/nephew/paperboy, while making his computer, will probably say something really good sounding like "hey dad/uncle/mister, there's an operating system that is free, easy to use, robust, unlike that shitty windows that will cost you 200 dollars. wanna try it?" Joe Bestbuy at that point might say yes. Whether he says yes more often than not isn't the issue. if half of all Joe Bestbuys decide to try another OS even temporarily, just to try it out, there's a good chance that alot of them will stick with it rather than pay microsoft, because that's just the way people are. In that event, the OS is free, Joe Bestbuy is happy. Joe doesn't buy microsoft software, microsoft hardware, microsoft loses mind and marketshare, microsoft loses.
sorry for the rant.
"I hope I don't make a mistake and manage to remain a virgin." - Britney Spears
It's easy to fall out of compliance ... this should stop that.
What about the case when you purchase an Open License for say, 50 copies? From what I've heard (they did this with Office 2000 in Australia/NZ IIRC), one was supplied with a single license key that will install on any machine.
Presumably the same tact will apply for Whistler, no?
If I were planning to pirate software which would only install on a particular computer, I would use a virtual or emulated pc (plex86 or bosch) to fake the correct pc underneath the new installation on each machine. If the CD itself looks for a certain MAC address and CPU ID locally, just give it the right numbers. If it wants to connect over the internet to a microchip embedded in Bill Gate's big toe to get authorization, then the virtual/emulated PC has to look at the key outgoing traffic, and run a little web-proxy like service to emulate Bill's toe.
So what you would do is distribute copied images of the target software, along with a second CD that had the trimed-down, minimal linux which immediately boots the virtual PC with the right configuration.
(Some people will note that it is probably easier to install the software to 650 MB partition, and edit and modify the parts of it that do the various checks, and then simply distribute images of that partion. They are right; but the nice thing about emulating, is it should always be able to work, thus arguing that copy protection is always doomed on an open architecture like the PC. I mean, I wouldn't encourage anyone to use any copy of a microsoft product, anyhow; I just want to make the point.)
It's not always simple of course -- similar to emulating one of those hardware serial port keys in software, you may have to crack a scheme, in terms of figuring out exactly what the microsoft central server should be sending back. But if you observe it happen once, and you are emulating the entire world of the computer, then you can set the time on the virtual machine to the same time as the first time, and just replay the transaction.
Of course that emulation or virtualization software can introduce bugs or be very slow, another potential problem.
The conclusion I draw from all this is, since I'm no genius, obviously a lot of people at microsoft understand this too. So they are probably aware they they will not stop the industrial scale operations with resources to invest in setting all this up. So they know that the benefit from them comes from encumbering their product to the point where honest people have to buy more copies than they needed to.
I currently use a USB smart card reader for software development. While this is possible, I really DO NOT want to have to haul this reader everywhere I need to use my laptop.
IMHO this is not a better option.
For a while, DOS 6.22 was available on MS's ftp site. I don't know if it still is though...
I think the only thing we, as users, can do is realize this is a big change in the way software works. Since commercial software has really only been around publically for about 20 years, we haven't got any sort of basis to relate this to.
I haven't got a large problem with it personally, on the condition that microsoft makes it perfectly clear that the purchaser can only use it on one machine. Many users will probably purchase whistler just assuming it was like all of MS' other products, and they can use it on as many machines as they like - they'll be in for an expensive surprise.
Further, Microsoft will HAVE to come out with some sort of deal for commercial companies and government agencies which ghost/mirror disk images. Surely they wouldn't make this manual installation, would they?
Just some input. =)
What happens when the authentication server no longer exists? Do you still own the software? Did you ever?
If MS really makes it extraordinarily difficult to pirate software, this will only drive people to software which is easier to pirate, or is free, such as Linux and *BSD. This will be a good thing in the end. It will make Windows people either stick with older products or suffer some annoyances, which will hopefully cause them to look at alternatives. I think this could make for a much more competitive OS market, meaning more cross platform programs and platform independent solutions. I think this will be a good thing.
Logic ... merely enables one to be wrong with authority. -- Doctor Who
Ummm. I hate to point out the obvious, but using Half-Life on two different computers with the same CD key is illegal. It's called piracy. This is EXACTLY the reason why we have all this crap in the first place. People installing one copy of the software on multiple machines without paying for the license. And no, you can't play on won.net with two computers using the same CD key at the same time.
(of course the elite hackers will be able to hack windows anyway/run their own proxy registration servers/ fake the ip addr of the microsoft server to crack it.)
BTW: I would never install this software unless it was hacked based on the principle of the thing. Period.
They ARE out to get you simply because They are in it for themselves and they don't care about you.
Before you say that Microsoft was deprived of money, think about whether that's really true. If the /.er with the joystick could not have pirated Windows 98, would he have paid another $90 for it -- so that his joystick price was approaching $200? I doubt it. He would have probably boxed the joystick up and returned it -- which, ironically, would have cost Microsoft a sale.
There is an ethical difference between copying software that you would never have paid for and copying it to keep from paying for it. In the former case, no one has been deprived of anything.
P.S. If you show me a way to steal a Ford truck without depriving anyone else (individuals or organizations) of one or having any reasonable likelihood of being caught, I will be driving one tomorrow.
Anyway, I'm sure while picking up a MAC address off of a modem and/or NIC, the MAC address can just go with the Wistler copy, ya? Makes me wonder... if that is so, why can't you just pick up a cheap NIC or modem? (Ah! The ISA slot lives!) If M$ creates it, I am assured that piraters will defeat it... either by trick and/or crack. Not as if they can guard their own code from crackers...
M$ should lower their price, and they wouldn't have to worry about the whole pirating issue... :) C'mon, Bill, you can't be the richest man forever! :P
Karma whorin' since 1999
In a dramatic new development, Microsoft officials confirmed the reports that next version of Microsoft windows will have tools which will force Users to single machine. The user would have to buy additional lisences to work on other computers at his home.
Every new computer come with a nylon strap which can be used to tie the computer to the users back. If you want a "carry-around" version of the 21" monitors, you would have to pay $$$$$ more to get a mountable LCD screen.
Though MS recomends using the supplied nylon straps, the users are free to use networking cables of phone line cables. However that would void the license agreement.
Users are also warned that the new software would explode if the user tries to un-tie the strap.
The the user wishes to use two computers, he would not only have to buy two liscences, but would also need a double-stacker on his back which can stack two computers at the same time. Tough it would be advisable to use a Terminal Switch to switch between two machines, the user can carry around two monitors if he or she wishes.
I hope that helps... MS is also comming out with a computer game called, ms-football. The computers which are made for the game are made of titanium alloy and are mounted "tie"d to the back of the player. The objective of the game is to finish the game without breaking straps which tie you to the computer.
And what happens when I have a machine I use strictly for development, and that's my business.. I'm not going to want my development machine to be mucked about with, either through viruses, DDOS attacks, or whatever else, so I have no communications devices whatsoever (I burn my work to CD). I'm screwed, is what M$ is telling me?!?
Pirated proprietary software is the one, single, largest enemy to free software.
... and we will continue to be forced to support the win32 crock OS and write applications for it.
As long as people can copy Windooz for free (that is, pirate it), they won't easily consider using a free alternative
This is even a larger problem in third world countries.
I'm all for stamping out pirated, proprietary software!
Within the past 12 months, MS started enforcing a little noticed portion of their OEM license: effectively, you had to use the machine in the configuratino delivered, or the MS license was no longer valid.
Large corporations were typically buying a name brand PC, and then ghosting a new image onto it so it met a corporate standard desktop. No problem, since the customer just bought an OEM license, right?
Wrong.
MS makes customers pay twice for the same OS in this situation.
My guess is this is an electronic way of enformcing this with corporations that don't agree with this interpretation of their license agreement.
The fight will come in over how you define a new PC I suppose. And yes, my guess is a hack will be discovered within 2 weeks.
On the other hand, if Win2K adoption is slow and problematic, imagine how the adoption of a copy-protected OS is going to be...
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
Microsoft??? Site license??? Puh-leaze. Microsoft doesn't do site licenses. They'd lose out on cash that way.
Maybe you're thinking of Microsoft Select...
That's fine. Just burn a copy of the Select CD's for Whistler...
Even if the solution is as simple as you've said MS promises, they cannot avoid the few that will try to grok the license number, and abuse it for their own gain. What if you install a legal copy of Whistler, and use it for 6 months, then decide to reinstall on the SAME machine (no change in MAC address), but just days before you install, some script kiddie guesses or obtains your PID, uses it to install Whistler (after calling MS to reactivate it), and then when you the denied message, you call MS and they question why you need to reactivate that PID on a different MAC? This case can be defeated if MS does collect personal information about you such that they can verify that it is you that is doing the reactivation, but then you lose the anonymosity and raise more questions, putting them right back into Blizzard's position.
"Pinky, you've left the lens cap of your mind on again." - P&TB
"I can see my house from here!" - ST:
What part of your machine do these OEM cds depend on? My Win98 CD no longer installs and Simply ship Systemax PCs (mine has a Systemax badge on the front).
However, I think this is altogether a good thing, because it takes the wind out of Microsoft's argument that every new PC must ship with Windows because otherwise it can only mean piracy. Ultimately, this may help non-Microsoft systems.
Think this is OK? Imagine if cars quit after 20,000 miles and required (at extra cost, of course) a new key to be "enabled" for another 20,000 miles. And we'll make hacking your engine illegal too, or even lifting the hood. And we have sensors in the seats and charge extra for each additional passenger. Why do we dismiss this as "rediculous" but not do the same when it comes to sotware?
Because of all this shit, I run Linux wnerever possible.
OEM copies will probably be immune to those installation hassles, since they probably won't include a CD besides one of their restore CD's... Even if the OEM version of the OS has those hooks, MSFT will probably issue a utility that speeds up the process, somehow.
They're just trying to make sure that its' more difficult to buy a retail or upgrade version of the OS and redistribute copies of it...
That's my guess, at least.
>Paying for software sucks.
Yah, and paying for food sucks too, but you gotta eat.
You have two choices: Go to the grocery store (Microsoft), or plant a garden (Linux, BSD, etc.).
I am not sure why it's such a bad thing for Microsoft to lock their software to a single computer. Of course, customers should be told this *up front* and they can decide.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
They do that kind of thing closer to release. Obviously nothing is set in stone yet. The information MS gave them on the beta group is probably as accurate as gets at the moment.
Chris
It's only in beta and it's likely to get axed, especially after corporations show the difficulties it will cause in rolling systems out. Chill out.
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
sure you can. I've done it.
treke
That's a worthless solution. What if I don't want to run cracked software? What if i just want to use the software I pay for the same way I do now.
I think it's unfair that I should have to buy two licences just because I have a laptop. This is ridiculous and I won't go for it.
I don't care what the license agreement says, when I buy software I'm also buying the right to use the damn software.
Jon Sullivan
Jon Sullivan
www.jonsullivan.com
Well, you call the vendor of your authorized Microsoft approved system and get technical support. They'll send out a rep to configure your OS and networking for proper operation.
and I didn't even comment on the use of a 3rd party image utility like Ghost. Is Ghost bankrupt? Can I do an install with a legit copy for my company, and make a Ghost image.. then put that image on other PCs without it boming horribly, or do I now have to use the imaging utility that came out with W2K originally.. and only works if you've got servers running W2K? This is a can o worms....
{} ------ When I think of a good sig, I'll put it here
Since I charge every company $100/royalty fee for my personal information I guess that means Microsoft will have to pay me to run their operating system. Too bad I won't run anything but *nix.
This goes to show how Microsoft is trying to make more money. How many window users have more than one box? And doesn't this go against their EULA (don't quote me I haven't read one in 3 years) which allows for their software to be run on 2 systems. Last time I looked that EULA was used for their OS as well.
How long before the US Gov't looks at that and questions MS as to why they are making consumers pay twice for two machines at home? Probably never since lil'George is in office.
This should spurn Windoze users to revolt and not buy any more upgrades.
Save Pangaea!! Stop Continental Drift!!
I had reason to call such a Microsoft number two years ago. I was on the road and I toasted my Windows partition. I had the Windows CD with me but it refused to install without its id code - but gave me a toll free number to call: 1-800-RULEGIT. I am *not* making this up. I felt bad but I called the number anyway. After 5 minutes on hold I hung up in disgust, and have never since installed a Microsoft OS on anything, and I am now the proud owner of a number of unopened Windows OS's, waiting for the day when Microsoft will give me my money back.
This experience turned out to be exactly what was required to move me entirely off windows. Up till that time I had been dual-booting Linux and Windows 98, but my disgust with the way I was treated that day by Microsoft motivated me to solve all the remaining problems I had with Linux that kept me going back to windows: getting online, getting sound to work, usb, etc. Thinking back on it, none of it was that hard (but harder than now, where you basically just stick in the CD and go). But it was psychologically hard to kick the Windows habit. Thanks, Bill, without that one last kick I would have probably continued suffering for another year.
--
Life's a bitch but somebody's gotta do it.
Quick, read the EULA and tell me whether you can distribute a flyer created with MS Word!
Microsoft and the rest of the PC industry have made fantastic inroads by allowing people to easily pirate (their words not mine) software. Because most people don't have to pay attention to the legal agreements when they install (just click I agree) they don't mind having their rights taken away.
When MS _forces_ everyone to pay the full fare it only increases the value of libre software.
-Scott scott@surrealistic.org
Depends. Some of the AXP platforms use standard PCI hardware.
Some software on AXP I've used ran a system configuration utility and listed the relevant items to a file. You took a copy of this and phoned the supplier and they gave you the licence code over the phone. This worked ok for a small supplier who probably didn't get that many calls.
Can you imagine the hit that MS will get when their multi-million machine install base hits the license reg line? Their support system is bad enough already. This may break their system entirely.
I'm not worried - most of those who actually pirate (though maybe not those pirated for) at least have the skillz to figure out how ghost computers or something of that sort. (so it would be necessary to check on boot, but it might be a huge mess to switch around if it's done wrong now)
Also, mass-manufacturing of computers will not be possible if any unique identifier is necessary to boot/install windows. That's all there is to it. If there is a common identifier in a manufacturer's computers, they will get lots of business for raw hardware (I wonder why...), with MS wondering how so many people are running it unlicensed.
Anything the good guys have (a tool that can make the keys with a script or something running on an in-house server) the bad guys will obtain or make. That's all there is to it.
Why shouldn't Microsoft be allowed to enforce their license agreements? It's not uncommon for the Slashdot community to get up in arms about some "no-name" software publisher violating the GPL. Get over it.
Suppose we apply this analogy to books. Is it possible I would have the right to read a book at home, but not anywhere else ?
You must use it in your house;
You must use it with a mouse;
You must not make it dual-boot boxen;
But may install our DB foxen;
Should you find a purpose
that's useful at all,
it voids the EULA
You've got some GALL!
Jesus christ, 8 machines? I thought the 3 I use was a lot, but, 8? I don't even think I could use them all at once if I wanted to...
--------
Never call a man a fool. Borrow from him.
Now that they've mercilessly crushed all non-free competition, they'll start doing something about OS piracy.
Personally I never liked DOS, having started on UNIX, and would wipe it off my system as soon as I got it. I shelled out for OS/2 and later downloaded 50 some odd slakware diskettes. I've been Microsoft free for years and years now. I guess in a way I'm some sort of balancing agent. All the MS licenses I was forced to buy that I never used probably karmically balance out some of that piracy somewhere in the world.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
What MS doesnt seem to understand is, popular software and piracy go hand in hand, the 2 are linked always have and always will be. Anything and everything that is popular has some form of piracy attached, be it pokemon, MS, film, music you name it, if its popular it has some form of piracy.
about nothing. The vast bulk of the readers here, seem to think that MS wanting to make it more difficult to pirate their software, is some horrible conspiracy against god and man.
First, how is it horrible, if a company takes measures to preserve their copyrights?
Second, MS isn't so stupid as to make it impossible to move the license from one machine to another. It's a given, that people will upgrade machines, and reload systems from time to time. They know better than to prevent that. No matter how much you disapprove of their business practices, nobody has ever accused them of being that inept at marketing things.
Thirdly, by and large the users here have been quite supportive of the thought of MS getting split into pieces. If OS's are split off to a separate company, it's definitely in that companies interest to tighten controls on the OS products. They won't have the oceans of Office license money propping things up. So did anyone ever consider, that this might be a move being engineered with a split in mind?
Lastly, slashdot is rumored to be a bastion of Linux users. And MS users, are far and away a minority here. What do you all care, if us few MS users, are inconvenienced in some way.
"Politicians are interested in people. Not that this is always a virtue. Fleas are interested in dogs." P.J. O'Rourke
Would Microsoft 2.0 with a more stable OS gather the same type of evil as MS 1.0? The answer to this Mary Jo Foley type question will go a long way towards your feelings on MS potential actions.
that make me realize how fortunate we are to have linux and bsd available :)
And what happens when the NIC fries and I have to get a new one - do I have to pay you for a second license now, in addition to replacing the fried hardware.
Any company not already in a majority position would never be able to get away with tactics like this. Users would say, "What? Those license terms are unacceptable, I'll take my business elsewhere, thank you."
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
Ya know...first of all I will be completely honest and say I don't know which came first. But, from this statement you sound like one of those saps who thinks Windows comes *free* (as in beer) with your PC when you buy your...well..based from this statement...HP Pavilion? Sorry if I misunderstood genius for ignorance. -E
The MAC address is a good idea and has been used before, but what if you don't have a NIC? I hope one will be included in the Whistler box (at no cost to me) so that I can at least use the OS if I choose to buy it. It would not be a good thing to sell a product that doesn't work out of the box, then force the user into putting hardware into their computers that they won't use for anything, other than a unique ID for M$.
The Pentium III ID won't work either because this processor isn't widespread enough. I wonder where this unique ID in hardware will come from?
I'm sueing, *Bastards* :)
Pedro Côrte-Real.
Many users would love to upgrade to Linux, but there just is not driver support for what we need. I have to have my system as a router for my family, but the Nic that works with my modem, does not have drivers for Linux. For Linux to be sucsessful they need to have drivers for all the hardware. Maby this will be the push to get manufactures to support Linux, and let in a whole new group of people.
Ford makes good trucks
They sure do. My F150 XLT doesn't crash twice a week or require restarting after I adjust the rear view mirrors. And if the time ever comes that I want something else, I have a legal right to sell my Ford truck to someone else.
The key that came with my Ford is for my own good, not the Ford Motor Company. My key protects me from wrongdoing from those who for some reason would want to take my Ford. I can make copies of my keys, hand them to my family, or my neighbors if I so please.
Microsoft's key is akin to shackles at the ankles. What if I want to go somewhere else today? I had better call my parole officer at Microsoft with my plans, otherwise my information pipeline is cut off.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
*cough*
Except of course if they embed a public key into the software and have the activation encrypted with the private one.
You back to just hack binaries again, which they can resist a little by making it difficult to get at the files, cos you do not have a OS yet.
Your need a boot disk or a real OS to mount the drive to install the crack. We are getting to the stage where it is to hard for lamers to do, which probably covers 99% of users, so thats not to shabby a system in my view (from their point of view).
James
I steal trucks made by Ford. I have no qualms about it.
OK. Lets explore this analogy a minute. You wouldn't, for one second, entertain the notion that although you paid for the steel and labor, you don't own the truck - Ford does. Likewise the notion that you ought to pay Ford a fee for each use of the truck. "But", you say, "I just have to move it across the street. Odd-even parking is in effect from November-March, you know." Tough shit. How about this one - (for Millenium Edition haters) no matter how often you reprogram the autotune.bat and config.sound buttons on your Ford's radio, everytime you start the truck the buttons revert to Ford's default presets. Stations which just happen to be owned by a Ford broadcasting subsidiary.
I declare this analogy officially brain dead.
"I will gladly pay you today, sir, and eat up
Sacred cows make the best burgers.
Are you talking about the OPK kits? They do have serial numbers.
But yes, for high security installations or corporate customers, the setups would be handled by IM groups. They do bypass any keys since the IM people are responsible for tracking licenses or buying site licenses.
Also, MS has worked long and hard to make their installations unattended and scriptable. Unattended installations would conflict with registering in the method outlined in the article, so there will be ways around it.
Write a program to automatically click the button. Run the program all the time. This way the button gets clicked but not by you. You do not agree and therefore are not obligated. How do they know who clicked the button and under what circumstances?
War is necrophilia.
Will the OS be usable in the future should MS drop support for it .... say 10yrs after it was released?
Can you even do this? This guy tried to get a computer without an operating system 2 1/2 years ago with no luck. Has the situation changed?
does this change anything?
they keep on coming up with new ideas to shaft us, and millions of people across the globe keep buying their software, their updates, and hardware with their stuff pre-installed.
of course, somehow, somewhere, someone will come up with a random number generator that gets a new and valid serial number
next they'll have us sign our validation key with some biometric information so that you'll need a license per user per cpu and that each biometrically different user will have their own licenses.
i can't wait for the future.
Microsoft will not do anything that durastic. I'm sure that there will be some anti-piracy measures in Windows Whistler's Final Release but nothing that will cause them to lose too many customers. They are hated by many but they are not stupid. The scheme may end up being broken down to where registrations are monitored for irregularities. I am a software engineer and I drafted and built a very simmilar registration system for my company's software. It had three methods of registering your license (including an automated phone system). It would not refuse to give an authorization code unless it detected irregularities in licensing. Even then, the license was only locked and they could still register by calling and talking to one of our representitives. Don't get discouraged, though. Some assembly god will write a crack for those of you who are still bent on stealing software. ChessProzac
Long live Microsoft!
sounds kind of like divx to me. Not the codec, the dvd format idea. Considering that failed quite miserably (and it was being pushed by some big industry players), I'm sure this will eventually go as well. Like with the PIII's uid per chip and all of these other "anti piracy" / whatever features, this one will be introduced, labeled extreme, and then probably dropped. Even MS cant get away with something like this.
How about everyone who's got a licenced copy of W2K+1 updates their hardware (swaps NICs, etc) every day and hassles MS manually for a new ProductID.
How long before they stop with this sh1t?
This sig left unintentionally blank.
Microsoft is a big cracker target? They are notorious for weak protection on their products. When I got my Office 98 CD (legal, mind you, supplied by IM) it took me 4 tries to guess the serial number.
It will be tougher when their products start merging with dot-net. Imagine if most of your Whistler II doesn't totally live on your computer.
I'm not defending microsoft, but look at history
Telephone service used to be phenominal. It rocked. Now you have crappy companies like Verizon and such that offer have rate service for more money.
That is becaus Ma Bell died.
If microsoft follows the same path, is it not concivable that software will go down the tube after it?
And if it does, then where will we be?
A lot of good software is good because everyone knows micorsoft makes shit products. So everyone else gets the bugs out first.
BUt if microsoft is gone, and people have no other choices, whats to stop companies from making shity products cause its cheeper?
Thats my 2 cents
Upeo
It is a common idea that you cannot own information. This is not held by everyone, but it is a common idea in the slashdot crowd. It probably harks back on the idea that you cannot own something that is infinitely reproduceable, if this reproduction is not intrusive. The cheeseburger analogy gets close to this, so I would simply say that YES, it is ok for people to take your cheeseburgers without asking.
You do know you can get several makes of electric cars for free? You can include any parts you want, can tinker with the engine yourself, and as they get better you can keep improving your own or get a new one.
On top of this they're better for the environment and have thousands of times the number of mechanics, many of whom work for free.
Noims.
This is not the greatest sig in the world. This is just a tribute.
Anyone who plays quake or half-life on the internet has heard of this (and likely had problems with the servers, too)... but an operating system? Sure, i see whats going on here... when you install, suppose whistler finds that you dont have an internet connection. well, no problem there, lets launch the ICW and offer to hook you up with MSN!!
Comment removed based on user account deletion
consider moore's law for computers, where processing power increases by doubling every 18 months. do automobiles increase in power/usablility/functionality every 18 months? no. therefore, i would say that the 5-6 year gap with computers is approximately equal to the 50 or so years in the world of automobiles.
------------
a funny comment: 1 karma
an insightful comment: 1 karma
a good old-fashioned flame: priceless
this sig limit is too small to put anything good h
Companies such as Autodesk have been going after used sales of AutoCad for awhile now, and some license agreements do not let you resell it. And even if you do resell it, the software would probably not be complete, i.e. with support and all.
Unfortunately this is a trend in software that is gaining momentum. That's why I love open source software!
Like Office2k, corps and the like will get non-annoying versions that don't require this registration process. Thus, it will not stop non compliance.
This thing seems to be targeted at retail versions only, probably aimed at mum and dad who used to borrow the disc from a friend
IT savvy ppl will of course go and copy a corp version...
---
It'll be cracked before the CD's hit the retail shelves. MS is the biggest Cracker target of them all. Glory goes the the first crack..
IF MS responds by making the OS only work on Internet connected systems, it'll be a consumer fiasco to rival DivX. Legitimate users wont stand for it. Business wont go for unsecured links for a $100 OS, they'll keep the old one or switch.
Go for it Microsoft, drag the rusty blade of copy-protection across your throat..
We're waiting...
Starman97@Gmail.com (bring it on spammers)
The tide is already turning against MS. This is one more reason for people to look for alternatives. There are enough paranoid people out there who will see this as motivation to switch to another OS.
How hard would it be for a manufacturer to start selling NICs with a custom MAC address (if this doesn't exist already)?
Most do this already, although the instructions for setting MAC addresses are not commonly available. Why would someone like 3COM want to manufacture all their cards differently ?
They want to make all their cards identical, and use the easiest possible technique to set the MAC address.
But anyway, this strikes at a very critical issue. When I buy as licence of Whistler, do I have an intrinsic right to use that software on any machine I feel like, whenever I feel like ? Provided of course the software runs on only one machine at a time. Or does Microsoft have the right to dictate how and when I can use their software ??
Software is protected by copyright. This is akin to saying I can use the copyright in any one place.
Suppose we apply this analogy to books. Is it possible I would have the right to read a book at home, but not anywhere else ? And that the book would magically become pixie dust if I tried to read it at work instead ?? It is really quite silly. I have the right to read that book wherever and whenever I like. I can even make copies as long as I keep them to myself. I can even give that book to my friend, as long as I give him all my copies too. That is copyright law applied to books. But for software, somehow the rights are completely different.
Microsoft is perverting copyright protection into infinite time patent protection through schemes like this one. Copyright was never designed to offer such protection, and the patent system actually expires after some time.
It is really quite silly. Microsoft cannot devise a copyright protection system that also protects consumer rights. They want to protect machine exclusive licensing (which I believe to be illegal if ever challenged). Then they will go to a strict licensing model. Then they will tell you to bend over.
This was the worst MS-Office 2K stab in the back, if you ask me.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
I was hopeful that Gates stepping down and handing the torch to Ballmer would see less news like this...seems the typical Gates paranoia lives on. :-/
Kinda makes me glad I'm not 100% dependent on Microsoft technology.
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
It was noted on another website that I saw the news on that they will have a version for corporations/etc that won't require this (or gets around it another way) for their installations (site licensed). Hatch
Microsoft made piracy of their products easy on purpose... So they could control the market! It worked too. I think they still know this and will continue to let people pirate with ease. They make a big deal about it with hologram cds and stuff, but it's still easy to pirate. I have a friend who works for Microsoft's tech support. They told him to give out product key numbers if the customer was having problems with theirs, and if the tech suspected piracy, to just help the caller the best they could.
The people that get screwed by this are those who like to tinker or play. Sure I own a Win98 CD and I've installed in on 5 or 6 machines (one at a time, of course) and I've rebuilt machines. Most people don't do any of that though. This is only a hiccup for us geeks who would actually delete windows and then put it back on there.
This is my signature. There are many signatures like it but this one is mine..
Just out of curiosity, be-fan, What is the model number of the joystick you just purchased. Is it a USB joystick? USB didn' exist when Win95 was written so it only makes sense that you would need to upgrade. I don't see this as so much of a stunt, rather than useful innovation and support of new products. I only wish Linux had better USB support.
-atrowe: Card-carrying Mensa member. I have no toleranse for stupidity.
This has been the norm for at least ten years on *nix software. Most high-value stuff has been licensed by a scheme like FlexLM on Solaris, HP-UX and so on. The license server is tied to a server and can dish out up to n floating licenses to whatever workstations request them. When a workstation stops using a license, it can be used by any other on the local network. You can use as many as you've paid for, but no more.
/.ers have real trouble with the principle of paying for software, particularly Microsoft's, so they obviously won't like this.
Most large commercail users of software love this scheme because they can't accidentally use more licenses than they've paid for -- saves them from suffering sleepless nights waiting for the software police to call.
However, I realise that most
I have it in the know (mainly because I work there) that there are multiple ways to obtain your "activation code" - one of which is through the Internet clearinghouse, but you can also get your code over the phone.
Just an FYI - do a little more research before discounting "high security" installs.
This won't be too hard to get around, but someone will have to code up a utility. Basically here's what I would do:
1) reverse engineer the protocol that it uses to connect to the MS server and authenticate itself
2) write a utility to "authenticate" installs of the OS.
3) make the machine with the new install use a local machine for the verification rather than an MS one. You could do this by running your own nameserver, or something to that effect.
If MS releases their OS with this kind of dumbass authentication scheme for the installs, it will only be a matter of days before a crack is available.
Personally I hope they do it, because it will be just another nail in the coffin.
You sound like you've got it all figured out. You must be a fucking genius. Hell... I admire you. You can come over to my house and fuck my sister. Give me a break, you know-it-all jackass linux biggot. ChessProzac
Long live Microsoft!
I haven't bought a crappy OEM PC with a restore CD, but I've dealt with a few for relatives. You know how it is, knowing a few things about computers is kinda like being a doctor--at social functions, people are always trying to get a free diagnosis--"So, when I try to play a video clip I get an error that says "mmsystem somethingorother gobbledygook--what do I do?" And of course, I get invited to come over to family members' houses to help them fix/setup/etc. their PCs. This being /., I'm sure most of us have had to do this at some point...
Anyway, my aunt's Compaq, which is a couple years old so I don't know if they do it differently now, has a partition with an executable which copies over/restores some directories with special drivers, programs, etc., and also has all the Windows cabfiles there and pointed to in the Registry so that it doesn't have to ask for a Windows CD whenever new hardware is detected. Not that bad, since you can still install new hardware, and conceivably since it has all the Windows cabs the drive could even be moved to another PC if need be, although it would cause a big messy Windows install instead of a nice small one. The partition is a standard FAT32 partition, not hidden or anything.
Meanwhile, another PC I encountered (forget whether it's a Dell or HP or whatever, been so long) has a bootable CD for system restore, that won't install to anything but the original hardware. Cabs for drivers for new hardware in case you add a device, but I think it's hard-coded to that type of motherboard or something, so that you can only use it on the PCs from that manufacturer. I didn't want to deal with the BS, so I just installed Win98SE from a regular Windows CD I brought with me, and then copied over some special drivers that were on the Restore CD. Then I made him a copy of the real Win98SE CD with my burner, so he wouldn't have to deal with any BS in the future.
Just what little experience I've had with sytem resore crap.
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws."--Tacitus, *The Annals*
I'd like to suggest a new licencing scheme to Microsoft (now grok this, Steve ;-):
Personal Licence
Everybody who has WinXXXX for personal (i.e.: non-professional) use gets a licence. Keep the price very low (e.g.: less than a quarter of the current fee).
The personal licence allows:
The installation of the software on any machine.
The installation/use of one single personal "profile" on any machine with the software installed.
If you want to give someone else access to the computer, get them an additional licence - then they can register their personal profile on the PC. If the user has broadband internet access, you could give an extra service with implementing "roaming profiles" over the internet. Wherever what WinPC you logon to, you always have your personal desktop right there.
If the licence fees are reasonably cheap you can get licences for the whole family for a price that is similar to the current price for an old-school licence. You could try to pull this of on subscription base.
Perhaps require a valid licence key (can be checked on-line) to install other apps (ie: office).
Business Licence ;-)
For Business use, it makes a lot more sense to get licences for the machines you are using, because they are more likely to stay than the staff using them
A licence allows installation of software on one single PC.
Work out site licencing deals.
B2B is where the money is, so go get them, Mr. Gates ;-)
Educational Licence
Plain and simple: give schools/colleges/universities free licences for educational purposes. You don't want the next generation to grow in a bed of Free Software, not learning how to develop on Windows Whatever, just because that damn site licence was too expensive, and nobody could tell the difference when KDE was installed anyhow. You need kids to be assimi^H^H^H^H^H^H educated in your system, to make sure that they'll support (and pay for) it later on in their lives. Think long-term, think C# in K-12, think William H. Gates Junior...
Anyhow, I think that software piracy and high licence fees are heavily related - something that can be changed if there's a good system that allows people to licence the software they use without having to pay an arm and a leg. If there's one company that can pull such a revolution off, it must be Microsoft...
I mean, you are innovators, right?
Okay... I'll do the stupid things first, then you shy people follow.
Okay... I'll do the stupid things first, then you shy people follow.
[Zappa]
why don't they just use one of those pass-through devices for the serial or parallel ports?
That's an easy answer:
Because a dongle can be moved.. by tying the software to existing hardware inside the case, they prevent you from moving your "license" to a new machine in the future. (Buy a new machine, you have to buy a new OS - you can't use the old "license" you already own.)
So your saying I just need my pirate "installation" ethernet card along with my pirate installation disk? Does it check the MAC address *after* it is installed? This way I can just switch network cards after the install :)
Thanks,
f00
There's a difference. If you get food from somebody then they don't have the food anymore - you *should* pay them. But if you get sofware from somebody, then they still have it, don't they? You shouldn't pay for the software, you should pay for the effort it took to give it to you.
You have two choices: Go to the grocery store (Microsoft), or plant a garden (Linux, BSD, etc.)
Well, actually writing your own operating system would be like planting a garden. Fortunately for us, Linus Torvalds and friends have already done that for us. Now we can just pick the fruit from the tree :-)
I am not sure why it's such a bad thing for Microsoft to lock their software to a single computer. Of course, customers should be told this *up front* and they can decide.
Oh yes, entirely agree. This will make it much easier for them to decide to install Linux. :-)
--
Life's a bitch but somebody's gotta do it.
I'm wondering just how much of a grasp on the facts of his statement you actually have here. The issue with the so-called "Windows Tax" (aka, Windows or some other MS software preloaded and paid for with every PC whether you like it or not) is not new. It's been going on since the 80's. That's long before there was ever such a thing as a Linux OEM.
In fact, if you do any research on the issue you will find that it's only been in the past 2 years or so that you have been able to get Linux support from any of the major OEM's at all (let alone purchase a system with it pre-installed and devoid of the Windows tax). And even today most of the OEM's do not discount a system that they pre-installed Linux on.
The only reason that this has even come about in the past couple years is because MS had to loosen the reins on OEMs because of the of the antitrust actions.
How about "I have a fleet of trucks made by Ford, and 90% of roads only allow Ford trucks, So switching to Chevy is difficult. You can get to most places using Multi-brand roads, but most of my truck drivers are too stupid to learn these (possibly shorter) alternate routes."
In this model, Ford has decided to lock the tires onto the wheels of all my new trucks. In order to change the tires, my motor pool has to go to the truck, read the serial number off the inside rim, Call for Ford's crack roadside service (two guys both named Earl who always take 3 days to arrive), Earl and Earl only bring the one key(to prevent car-jacking presumably). The Earls unlock the tire, my mechanic changes the tire, the Earls re-lock the tire with a new key, and write down the new key and the new tire's serial numbers on yellow post-its.
I know, I know, It's my fault for buying Ford.
Also note that I even had to buy the tire.
This is going to totally hose those of us doing drive imaging to hundreds of machines.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
This has actually been talked about for a while, and IIRCC there will be a way t transfer the license between machines. You will just have to call MS and explain why you are doing so (basically they will be able to relicense the copy). Individual copies of Microsoft software are also license for install on up to two machines (one is supposed to be a laptop, but as of now ther is no way to check). It is a PITA, but not as horrible as it sounds. I will try to dig up the old story I read that gives all this info.
I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
Oh boy, here it comes. What vendor of cheap network cards is going to first on the market
with adjustable MAC network cards?
What will be the first website with instructions for changing your MAC?
Fun stuff.
Yeah, I hate those tricks.
Me? Got a Genius Colorpage I scanner in '94. Was bad enough to set it up (weird half-ass 8-bit ISA "kinda-SCSI" card) in DOS for Win3.1, which was what it shipped with.
Turns out the NT drivers worked with Win95.
Turns out it's not on any supported lists for W98.
Turns out if you try to use the same drivers in W98, the machine locks hard.
Solution: Boot W98SE into safe mode to install the drivers without blowing anything up.
Then boot to regular mode and it works just fine.
Eat me, Bill. Even if a $129 USB scanner is probably better than this thing I bought just before the web got popular and everyone had to have a scanner... I will not let Bill make me throw out perfectly functional hardware just 'cuz he thinks I should.
Why pay for something you don't need, especially when the "upgrade" serves only to make you pay for other things you didn't need before your "upgrade"?
Where I come from, that's not an upgrade, it's throwing good money after bad.
it's not like this is going to prevent piracy. the cracking groups love a challenge, and will have copies distributed around the world.
funny part is, i'll bet their cracked version is out before msft can get the real thing on the shelves.
--
Actually, if you had a machine that made cheeseburgers out of nothing and cost you nothing and you DIDN'T allow everyone to have one, I'd call you a greedy asshole.
:)
I mean, really. It was a poor analogy to start with, but if you don't share something that cost nothing to make, thats just being American (as said by another American)
when all is said and done, all a man has left are his blades and his honor.
I do some of the tech support for the ISP side of the company I work for. Had a lady call up with Win 95 and didn't have DUN installed, nor did she have the CD. Told her to find somebody that had a copy she could "borrow". She ended up calling Microsoft and asking if they had an extra. The person at MS that she talked to, told her to ask her friends for a copy.
for product like ArcServ. There is a way around not having an internet connection, but it does require a phone call. I'm sure there's a way to re-install if you switch computers, it's just going to be a huge pain in the ass
--
Free Mac Mini
have you ever considered building your own machines instead of purchasing prebuilts with os's on them? the points i can see being brought up as argument against that would be time/convenience, but it's really not that hard. i worked for a company building computers, and you can build 100 identical computers in a few days with 2-3 people working on it. it's just assembly-line production, and with all-new components, defective parts are relatively easily identified and replaced.
*shrug*
eudas
Blessed is he who expects the worst, for he shall not be disappointed.
As far as the copy protection... Well, I'm pleased to think that the copy of Windows 2000 I legally paid for will be the last Microsoft software I ever buy. By the time Whistler comes out, (you know it will be late, right?) Linux (with KDE2, Gnome.latest, Mozilla, XFree86 4.0.2, etc.) will be good enough on the desktop that I might even be able to stop dual-booting.
For sure I will not need to upgrade from Windows 2000, which is actually pretty decent for Office apps and games.
Does Microsoft think that Whistler's features are so much better than Windows 2000 that people will pay to upgrade and put up with all the hassle of their new licensing schemes? Get real!
Torrey Hoffman (Azog)
Torrey Hoffman (Azog)
"HTML needs a rant tag" - Alan Cox
who don't have access to the internet?
Sure, the internet is a big deal these days, but I refuse to submit to the idea that a PC [running Windows...] can't function without it!
-the wunderhorn
Karma: Bored. (Thinking about resurrecting the "Anyone else is an imposter" joke.)
While I think that the smart card reader is a kinda dumb idea (sorry, Jeff :) the subject of the message got me to thinking: does Microsoft have any outlet for keeping in contact with its customers? Linux has /. and a million other sites, Creative Labs use news groups to keep their ear to the ground, iD keeps an eye on game sites... Does MS do anything like this? Do they survive totally on marketing studies? Everytime I hear a BillG speech, he says something to the effect of "Our customers asked for X and we gave it to them..." and I think, "I wonder what assylum they found that guy in..." I would really love to see one of MS's project managers consistantly interact with a bunch of serious computer users like on /. and see how/if it influences any of the OS features. Even if MS continued doing what they're doing, I would just like to be able to interact with some of their developers to hear why they decided to focus on, say, voice operation and shirk things like stability.
Chris
Know why? Because we'll get around it. I personally don't plan to run Whistler, and if we're lucky windows will be a niche OS by then anyway.
.rars, or something similar.
There are key generators, cracks, and warez versions of *everything* out there, including things that supposedly tie programs to hardware (ie: dongles) or things that tie the software to the machine it's installed on. Sure, this'll hit everyone (if it actually ever happens) at first, but then you'll be able to download the whistler-crack.exe which will remove all serial numbers from the
This has happened before, in other forms, and like the other posters have no doubt said, is not a new idea. Getting around it (for the pirates and inquisitive among you) won't be hard either.
You're under the wrong assumption that the kernel, or the distributions are responsible for writing hardware drivers. WRONG. Try contacting the company that made your NIC to write a linux driver, or release the specs to the card, so somebody else can. Any hardware manufacturer will understand that drivers are their lifeblood, and should happily write drivers that would sell the product. If not, get another NIC, heck they're only $20....
-- "Perceptions create reality. By changing your perceptions you change your reality."
It isn't just that Microsoft wants to make Windows harder to pirate. They want to make all Windows software require a hardware-specific licence from the clearinghouse. What does Microsoft gain? It acts as the clearinghouse, allowing it to charge fees to other software companies and to compile a database of exactly who is using what software. It can then target users of (for example) Lotus Notes with special promotions on Exchange, Outlook, etc.
Don't like MS? Don't use the software
He's not talking about software, he's talking about hardware. He's talking about the fact that to use a joystick, you have to buy windows. And that is absolutely absurd. If I was him I would have taken it back and got a linux supported joystick.. but I also dont play any games that require a joystick.
The bottom line is that, Microsoft has 2 choices in his argument: Sell a joystick, dont sell a win license or get a return on a joystick (which can cost them money + money lost from the sale) and no Win license.
His intent wasn't juvenile. Your analogy was though.
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
I don't understand your irony. Are you implying Ford Explorer is actually powered by Internet Explorer?
... climb out and hang ...
The Ford Explorer itself isn't, but the (Firestone) tires are.
---
Put your feet out and stop
I pledge allegiance to the flag...
of the Corporate States of America...
although i can understand where they're coming from...(i don't know anybody in real life who actually owns their copy of windows, nor do i know anybody who owned a copy of win 3.11 or even dos for that matter, they just seemed to "appear" on burnt cdr's or piles of floppies)
:)
it just seems that microsoft has so much more to gain by giving their OS away free, even if they do it unofficially (by looking the other way when it comes to piracy). sure, my copy of win2k is not exactly legal, but i have piles of software that IS legal, and alot of windows only hardware made by manufacturers who had to pay for that nice little "designed for windows" emblem on the boxes. microsoft does get alot of money from me, just not directly. now if i'm forced to pay for windows (especially with so many rules involving use and non-transferability) in the future, that NTFS partition on my hard drive is going to go away.
i was going to say something about giving the razors away and making money on the blades, but i forgot how it went
"I hope I don't make a mistake and manage to remain a virgin." - Britney Spears
Well Apple does have some fairly nice hardware and there does happen to be a rather sizable Adobe userbase on the Mac...
(And I'm not being a Mac-bigot. I've worked color prepress long enough to know that Photoshop, Illustrator, and Quark simply are more finicky under Win-32 than under the MacOS. Adobe products run really well under the MacOS.)
----
----
Am I the only one who thinks Microsoft is a misnomer? Perhaps Macrosoft would be a better fit?
Hmm.. thats funny, this is what my instruction sheet said when my friend gave me legal copy he got from hong kong for $0.45:
.zip file.
7. Apple lie "super-security-patch-made-in-usa"
8. Run AutoDesks AutoCadd 3d office suite.
1. Open Cd-ROM. put Cd-ROM inn. 2. concent to WWW. 3. OOpen intternet ecsplorerer. 4. freecracks.com 5. Loook at nekid ladies. (plz click ban nerdz) 6. downylod
All jokes aside, 90% of the people that use AutoCad, 3d Studio MAX, Flash and SoftImage use the WaReZ versions. This is good for companies because basically it is like giving a bunch of motivated young future costumers "education licenses".
If AutoCad were to be sold legaly in a 3rd world country like India, no one would be able to buy it.
AutoCad isn't sold legally in India, and a friend of mine (i live in Canada so i have a hell of a lot of multicultural classmates) says that EVERYONE has it. OEMs actually ship with it. This is exactly what AutoDesk wants, the people that would have bought AutoCad are still buying it, except now, theres a thousands of teenagers using it too, which will become dependent on this software and will have to buy it if they become drafters.
Posted from a FreeBSD boxs runnning Konqueror.
a hidden SN isn't needed, almost all of the PC makers put thier name in the BIOS and lock programs to just the name.
Question reality.
I'm sure you'll still be able to use their universal key. The one that's all 0s with one 1. I don't remember offhand, but it has the form of 00000-01000-0000-000 something like that. Oops, did they not want that to get out?
" It's easy to fall out of compliance ... this should stop that."
The open source community ought to full heartedly embrace and celebrate the birth of any technology that prevents people from copying software. If people actually had to pay for their copies of software they would be encouraged to investigate lower cost alternatives and free software.
Right now too many people (billions outside the united states) are using MS operating systems and office software because they don't have to pay for it. As a result of this widespread pirating of MS software, lower cost and free alternatives don't get a chance to gain market share and MS software becomes the "default".
Imagine a world where every person who uses a computer is faces with the following dillema.
Do I pay $400.00 for MS-Office, $99.00 for Wordperfect office or $0.00 for star office?
Imagine a person in Africa, China, or El-Salvador making this choice.
A significant percentage (if not most) would choose to pay less and this would once and for all break the MS hegemony in software and more importantly file formats.
The open source community ought to be helping MS achieve better copy protection methods and encouraging them by any means possible. Feel free to call every person who pirates software a thief, liar, coward or bum or whatever. Maybe they'll switch out of shame.
War is necrophilia.
-----------------------
Nicotine free Amish .sig.
I remember when the main competitor to DOS was the Mac OS. Both were "effectively" free in the sense that the price was bundled with the computer. But DOS wasn't really free, because Microsoft got paid for every copy that shipped in a PC.
And guess what? Microsoft reportedly made more money from each Macintosh sold than from each PC, on average. Even though they were getting money for every PC made by IBM, Compaq or whoever. That's because Excel and Word were very popular on the Mac, and application software has a higher markup than a bundled OS.
It's true that Windows Me costs more than DOS did way back when, but there's a lot more in it. And it's still lots cheaper than Office (or Adobe Photoshop, for that matter).
--
The only part of MS Office I use is Word. I don't make spreadsheets, and I don't need accounting software, and I'm definitely not going to put a big "Hey crackers, I'm bent over, fuck me in the ass" sign on my PC by installing Outlook or Outlook Express. I need and use newer versions of Word because it provides 100% compatibility with most of the documents people send me. I myself use the beautiful and elegantly simple ClarisWorks 5.0 for Windows when I write, and save it as text if I need to send it to other people instead of printing it out--after all, the first computers I used were Macs, and Claris was a staple. But, most other people use various versions of Word, and to keep up I use the latest version I can get.
So, I thought I'd get MS Works, just for Word 2000. There I am in CompUSA, it's on sale for $79, but reading the box tells me that "MS Works is an upgrade product. You must already have installed, or have the installation media for, one of the following products..." Sonofabitch! I'm not going to keep around a pile of musty old install disks for Encarta 97 or whateverthehell, just so I can install/reinstall the Word 200 from the MS Works package. Bullshit. And I feel bad for anyone who didn't read the side panel closely enough to realize that the new version of Works is useless unless you already own a piece of shit outdated copy of something else. What a scam. They know perfectly well that people aren't going to keep track of a pile of old CDs they don't use anymore, and that eventually someone will lose something and have to go out and buy another MS product just to get functionality on something else they bought. I really wish some consumer protection agencies would take the stick from out their asses and move on abuses like this.
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws."--Tacitus, *The Annals*
First there'll be a crack as soon as the serial # checking system is integrated in a beta version...
As for those who don't want/don't know cracks, well, they'll just switch to Linux.
I think MS is doing a big mistake, as piracy is actually what makes them so successful : people use warezed MS copies at home, and when they get to work ask their company the same software they already know, and the company buys it instead of forcing its own (cheaper) solution. If MS want to kill it's massive long-term market force just for the sake of selling a few 1000s in 2001, then let it be !
Besides, I think USB was around when Windows95 was introduced; there just weren't many devices for it yet.
People started complaining about copy protection on PC apps when the 'protection' started affecting normal users instead just people who were pirating the applications. Dongles were a good example. They didn't work on all PCs, and if you had 2 apps that needed a dongle, you had a problem and had to constantly switch dongles on the printer port. Or, the hacked floppies that not every drive could read. If MS implements this copy-protection in a way that affects normal users, there *will* be a lot of annoyed users. And that will give other companies / products the chance to flourish. And, you know that once MS builds it into Whistler that they will build it into all of their standard apps...
I pirate MS OSs. I have no qualms about it. They charge obscene prices for crappy products, and pull non-compatibility tricks to force you to upgrade. For example, when I bought my $90 MS joystick (say what you will, they make *good* joysticks) I had to get a copy of Win98 to use it. If they wouldn't pull stunts like this, they'd have much less piracy. Well, somebody will figure out a crack, so all hope isn't lost ;)
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Oh no, can't stand 'em. But they all thought it was free (Or did the old one hook discount arrr!) pretty much insuring Microsoft apps a place to run. We'd have been better off if CP/M had won...
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Tulip and eepro100 do as well.
(One thing many here forget is that this trend is a UNIX trend. PC's gave up copy-protection., dongels, and the like a dozen years ago, but UNIX apps and tools are always like this. The UNIX world has always accepted this stuff without questions. License keys tied to the CPU are a UNIX idea, and has been normal there for years.)
The idea of copy prevention failed on PCs because consumers were clever enough to protest and to copy, come ahat may. Also, vendors saw it was in their interest. I have a feeling that this trend has ended: Blind greed seems to be the order of the day. Add to this that today's consumers will not be quite that clever or assertive. Looks grim.
---
---
BDOS ERR ON A:>
But nobody likes it - Microsoft Works - a lame wannabe Office for peasants.
Frankly I'm happy to see Microsoft do this. It's just one more step toward their inevitable demise.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
I'm sure the software companies would love to get their hands on the demographics information that comes out of this "hardware registration". Oh, you don't have the newest video accelerator? Time for targetted email/snail mail marketing from vendors. Don't have a spreadsheet yet? Time for MSOffice spam...
I adblock all animated gifs.
Blessed be the prime numbered slashdotters
Maybe in the US where everyone has ADSL it'll fly, but in the rest of the world the majority of computer users do *not* have any kind of internet connectivity - usually by their own choice, on cost grounds.
In the UK, for example, it's picking up but the last statistics I read were only about 20% of computer users were online (only about 10% of homes had computers at all).
Also businesses (who whistler is arguably aimed at) don't by PC's with windows pre-installed, they buy empty ones and use the existing installs - where I work we have half a dozen standard disk images that get squirted onto machines. Businesses don't have the *time* to install fresh copies on every machine, including all the service packs, visual studio, etc. (the same is true of shops that sell PCs generally, they mirror the same HD across dozens of machines and give you an unopened Windows CD with the box).
This is going to make it vastly more expensive for shops and businesses, not that MS care a damn about hurting businesses!
Unless you're buying from dell or something all suppliers here offer bundles without Windows, and they're quite popular (I usually recommend to people to go for a windowsless PC as they're slightly cheaper and most people have a copy lying around anyway. I have about half a dozen from various jobs, MSDN, etc.).
I really like this. I consider piracy to be the only thing that keeps Windows going. I know plenty of people who pirate Windows, and would make the effort to convert to a better platform if they had to buy Windows to use it.
Believe with me, my saplings.
So what's next? Pay per reboot?
Karma: Good. I'm hoping in the same way as pizza is 'good'...
There are two kinds of people: 1) those who start arrays with one and 1) those who start them with zero.
Before you make a fuss, and think that your days of pirating MS software are over, take a closer read at the article:
.Net, sources said."
"Microsoft plans to deliver WPA in all 32-bit versions of Whistler except those sold to volume-licensing customers and the so-called "Royalty OEM initial install images" provided to PC makers, said sources close to the company. Microsoft is expected to add similar anti-piracy technology to Office 10 and Visual Studio
This "volume-licensing" program is called Microsoft Select, and it's what huge corporations get. The versions that come on those Select CDs don't need product keys at all. So, anyone want to take a guess at how long it will take people to start passing around ISO's of the Select versions of these products? (Hint: they don't call it "0-day warez" for nothing!)
Everyone can see that this feature is going to be a huge annoyance, even Microsoft. And they especially don't want to annoy their major customers, so there will always be a way around it.
The past three releases of the Win32 kernel have shown minimal changes. Many people are still using Windows 95, because it's small, it's fast, and it offers the best compatibility between Windows and MS-DOS.
Three years later, Microsoft comes out with Windows 98 and what do we see? Bloatware, because Microsoft's Wonderful Little Browser (tm) is integrated into Windows. No updates to any of the standard utilities (Notepad, WordPad, Calculator, Solitaire, Minesweeper), but just a prettier LOGOS.SYS.
And now Windows Millenium Edition is here. What does it do?
It does a wonderful job of hiding DOS (thanks for the limited functionality), it comes with a nifty free System Restore utility, startup times are slightly faster, a new LOGOS.SYS, ISDN configuration wizard, Checkers on the Internet, a redesigned troubleshooter, and Internet Explorer 5 clings to it like a bloodthirsty leech. Are there any stability fixes? Maybe (I had Windows running for a week without crashing), but it's lost amongst Microsoft PR.
And now with these screenshots of Whistler, I sure as hell won't be treated like an idiot by Microsoft's Friendly "Oh, Look at those Pretty Icons!" interface.
What does everyone else think?
A friend of mine once did work on a Canadian military base near where I lived at the time, and lent me a copy of the Microsoft Select (purple jacket and CD) version of Windows 95 (which was new at the time).
No serial number, upgrade requirement, or anything else needed... just install and enjoy.
How long do you think it'll take for the warez groups to get their hands on a copy of one of the Microsoft Select images?
--
I'm writing from India... which I am visiting... one thing which I very quickly realized here is that almost all of the software (including win32 operating systems) are pirated...this might in fact by MS shooting themselves in the foot..The people in India can't afford to buy Windows whistler... Indians will reconsider and I'd put good odds on many switching to Linux and other free OSes... in fact the whole fate of MS in developing countries will probably revolve on whether they choose to go ahead with this admittedly bone-heade move.
I like alliteration, Nicky Two-Souls
Who/what is this 'clearinghouse'? If this is a centralized server just on a LAN or something (SMS or something) then someone will be able to crack that I'm sure.
However, if this is some company that will account for licensing on an installation-performed basis, then this company has one serious DDOS attack on the horizon.
----
Software is protected by copyright. This is akin to saying I can use the copyright in any one place.
Yes, any original work is automatically protected by copyright. In addition, most software (other than public domain) has its usage governed by a license. This license is crafted by the author of the software.
Microsoft licenses their software on a per-machine basis. You are paying for the right to install that copy of Windows on one machine. If you don't like the licensing arrangement, you can either choose not to use their software, or break the license agreement. They are simply making it harder to break the agreement, which is their right, just as you have the right not to use their software.
-thomas
"And like that
A lot of people are using windows because it is cheap, i.e. it costs as much as a blank cd. So, in a somewhat distorted way, windows is competing with linux in the free (as beer) marquet.
If microsoft does implement this two things may happen: Someone cracks the code or people start using competing products.
I belive that in the long run this is good for the free (beer/speach) OSs in general.
Obviously, this type of copy protection can be used as lease license protection required to enable .NET software leasing. After all, why sell the computer software with pirating being a possibility? You can make people pay to use it, without actually owning anything!
Is this why they don't really care about the hard drive access controls that have been described on /. lately?
If windows becomes too difficult to use for the average user (which is what a copy protection scheme such as this does) more users might decide to migrate to other OS's. Keep in mind that a large part of window's popularity stems from the fact that many kids grow up with computers running pirated copies of windows. If it becomes too difficult to do, more will cut their computer teeth on alternatives and later on demand them at work.
No matter how much the world hates microsoft, that gives NOBODY the right to pirate their software. Microsoft is only protecting their interests. Now, apparently, they're taking "harder" steps to ensure that they get adequate payment, and it has been indicated that it will be fair and you will have some manner in which to move your licenses.. but it will assure that your license is yours. That seems pretty fair to me. Other software has done this for quite some time...
That said, rest assured, those of you out there who simply hate the idea of paying for anything in this capitalist country we call the USA, someone will have a keygen out within a few weeks.
Awesome. So I pay $500 (or whatever) for Whistler, tie it to my NIC, then my NIC dies.
I might as well have flushed my $500 right down the shitter. Thanks, Microsoft.
--
All empires have pretty much brought their downfall upon themselves. I think that this will be the start of the demise of microsoft. I can just imagine Bill Gate in an Indecent Proposal like scene masturbating with 50 billion dollars and convincing himself what a good idea this is.
Of course, Mr. Bill is relying heavily on the fact that most of the people that own computers are inherintly lazy and don't want to really have to learn anything to run them. The power of the laziness of the masses to drive development should never be under estimated.
It is too bad though, I honestly think that this would be the end of the reign of Mr. Bill if it wasn't for the laziness factor.
Either give it away or get top dollar, but never sell yourself cheap.
This clearly sucks. Btw, many NICs allow the MAC-address to be changed :-)
Every expression is true, for a given value of 'true'
If microsoft tests the water with these vague liscencing announcements and the Community raises hell, microsoft will refrain from actually implementing said liscenses.
If, meanwhile, we all go peacefully back to our homes, Microsoft will interpret that as oh, well the citizens don't really mind that much. And they will go ahead and do it. And after months of predictions of doom coming from the four GNU people in the back who have THE END IS NEAR signs tied around them, MS will probably even be able to pass off their actions as NOBLE-- as oh, look how LENIENT our new liscencing plan is. In certain metaphorical and temporal ways the plan will fuck you up the ass, of course, but compared to what ms COULD have done it will be lenient.. and people will find a way to argue we should all be grateful.
If microsoft wants to stop people illegally pirating their OSes-- and if the issue is as bad as they claim, there are a great many more sane ways they can go about doing that, including through law enforcement agencies.
No form of copy protection ever divised is capable of in the long run raising the difficulty of pirating a product more than it raises the difficult for legitimate users. This kind of thing goes far, far beyond that, by actively making life infinitely easier for crackers than for legitimate users. Legitimate users must worry constantly about getting an id# every time they twiddle with their modem card, or something crucial overheats and screws all the BIOS' internals... crackers can just boot directly into their lightweight plex86 bootstraps, whatever happens, and not have to worry about this kind of thing..
Seems to me that some people are unreasonable and won't give credit or payment where it's due no matter what, but the majority of the people would i think at some level prefer what they feel is the more "moral" course. And like it or not, people will judge the morality of "going around the system" almost wholly on the basis of whether they feel the demands made by the system are reasonable. And so the two most effective ways i can think of for microsoft to make people worry less about the absolute morality of that decision-- do i pirate or go to the store-- are:
Of course, none of this is my problem because i currently neither own nor use a single microsoft product. (I used to use MSIE/mac, but then it mysteriously stopped working, and idiotically the only way you can reinstall the mac os x version of msie is by reinstalling the entire OS.. ah well) That comes with its varied own set of problems, but this is the decision i have made, for many reasons, and at times like this i am glad of it..
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
No matter how much I dislike M$oft....I do not see any problem with this. If a company wants to charge for a product -- they at least reserve the right to ensure their user community paid for that said product...Hell thats why I started using Linux in 1996...I refuse to use "warez" or "pirate"software (an old fashioned law-abiding citizen I am -- err except when I download OOP stuff from Napster because the record store people tell me that a certain CD is out of print -- and my chances of finding it in the used bin are about the same as winning the lottery -- and a copy on ebay will cost me more than my car payment)...so it got very expensive keeping up with the bugfixes from Micro$oft....I can deal with a lot of Linux quirks for the money it saves me.
(+1 Funny) only if I laugh out loud.
you have to wonder.. a LOT of eyes see this type of stuff before it leaves redmond. why does this seem like a good idea?
windows has never been very interested in appealing to older hardware. the way it stands now, if the OS runs poorly and people decide to upgrade to a new compaq packaged machine then they'll sell another windows license,, therefore they have a pretty good chance at selling more than one license to the same person.
this new plan seems like an almost offensive way to snub their noses at this unspoken reality by just coming out and *making* everyone buy multiple licenses!
between this and the
( note to adobe: please please write linux versions of your products so i can leave windows behind forever. )
<3x, kevin
So when I need to reinstall or upgrace my hard computer I don't need to (1) Install DOS 6.22, (2) Install Windows 3.11, (3) Install 95 upgrade, (4) Install 98 upgrade.
Pardon me? You don't need to do that.
To install the Win98 Upgrade on a clean hard drive:
1) Boot the computer with a DOS floppy that has the CDROM driver on it.
2) Insert the Win98 Upgrade CD and run setup. The install will start.
3) Part way through it will ask you disk 1 or the CD of an earlier version of Windows.
4) Pop in a Win95 CD or Win 3.1 floppy.
5) Once it checks out the CD or floppy the installation will continue.
Easy, I've done this many times. You've just wasted $100.
C'mon... Microsoft is not totally stupid, regardless of the mentality here on slashdot. I do believe they are smart enough to not require a network connection to activate the operating system!
Typical FUD from the "anti-FUD" crowd...
"And like that
The question is: what legal enforcement do they have of this license? Definately not copyright, and probably not contract law (no witnesses, no signature - I could have easily and often do circumvent the agreement by extracting the files from the archive manually, or getting another person to click on the magic, legally-binding button.
If they had a contract which you had to sign in order to purchase the software, this would be one thing. But there really isn't any legal way to enforce a contract that is handed to you after you purchase something - the purchase could be considered a contract in itself, with limited terms (I receive media and the right to use this program by copyright, and am obligated to give you money)
Autodesk has done this with AutoCad for at least a couple years now, that I know of, could be longer. Every time you install it on a new machine, you actually have to call them to get an activation code.
It should be ok if MS decides to release it like that. It probably won't take too long to crack the security. It probably has a buffer overflow bug in it like every routine in all their software. Just type in a code of 257 characters.
Think about it, this actually helps linux and hurts MS stranglehold. Does MS really think everyone who now pirates (usually because they cant afford) windows is going to sacrifice something to *BUY* it?
No.
Some will find a way to crack it, but with the DMCA and new UCITA laws, MS will probably go on an MPAA-style seek-and-destroy type mission to mute all with even the slightest idea how to crack it. So what will happen? People will look even harder at alternative operating systems. Linux being an obvious one, but others like BeOS-pe, *BSD, etc. Sure, I know, somebody out there is saying "but these arent user friendly operating systems".- Well, 2 arguments against that. #1, If I built my aunt a computer today, she wouldnt know how to use it at all. It would be no harder for her to learn how to use KDE than it would be for her to learn windows. #2, Those who are using unpaid versions of windows, probably wouldnt mind giving an alternative os a shot. I think it won't be long before we see linux more widely used than windows.
I dont hate windows or M$. I just like linux better.
I do not like anyone having my personal information, except sites I have decided can be trusted. End of Story.
I also control the computers at my house. Displite the fact that I now hate windows, 2 people have to have it, so we have a few computers with windows 95 on them. We got windows 98 (I was just being intorduced to Linux around then) for 1 computer, and I hate it. (slow, pita (pain in the a**) which happens to be the computer's hostname)
Given that there are 4 very active computer users at my house, I can say that it will never go on any of the computers if M$ does this. I throw anyone's registration cards away. I may be known as 3838429 in some database, but I will not be known in that database as my name.
If M$ considers people like me a problem, I could use the $60-$75 profit m$ made on me back, for each copy of windows.
btw, I program (hack), and do not break-in to other computers (crack). I wish to be anonymous, and take your $75 and leave me alone.
I'm afraid that's wrong... Copyright does not cover usage terms unless I sign a contract agreeing to those usage terms. I don't think that clicking on the little button marked "I Agree" constitutes a legally binding signature for something that removes rights. On the other hand, we have licenses like the GPL and BSD license that grant extra rights above and beyond those granted by copyright law... If one agrees to the extra terms laid out within the license.
-RickHunter
Whistler is also going to be a professional OS and not really meant for the home user.
:)
I am a professional home user. I run an 8 machine W2K domain-based network. I have a W2K Server box as a PDC, my main workstation runs W2K-Pro, etc. All my MS-based machines are correctly licenced according to my MSDN subscription.
Any of my machines may be upgraded overnight - sometimes several times a day. All are home-built - except my Sony Vaio laptop - and are prone to semi-random "hardware upgrades" based on my selling "old" kit and replacing it.
I will quite happily phone Ms every half-hour (on my employers phone bill) to get "updated" Product ID codes until they capitulate, and that will happen all the sooner if everyone else does the same
This sig left unintentionally blank.
Wouldn't it be cool to be able to prove by means of certificates that all your PCs were configured correctly?
.NET will be vulnerable to, given Microsoft's security and encryption track record.
Won't it be cool when both NetBus *and* BackOrifice have GUI tools for automatically improving the certification, thus easing sysadmin stress by removing the knowledge that most of his users' workstations are thoroughly 0wn3d. Not to mention MitM attacks, which one can practically guarantee
Microsoft Certified morons are installing god knows what from god knows where and trampling over your windows\system32 directory with dlls from all over the place.
More fool you (them). Much better to have real live administrable user machines that will reimage themselves automatically or on demand in case of problems, and don't have library versioning conflicts because they can support every version since the Ark side by side, and you can inspect and alter *every* part of their software should you so desire or the need arise.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Are you referring to the many insightful posts on here that have high scores, yet have "flamebait" or "troll" tacked onto it?
How come Linuz users whine so much about Microsoft products, supposedly they never use them. If you don't want to pay for a copy of Whistler don't. No one is forcing you to upgrade from your pirated copy of Windows 2000. If you're buying a site license (as smart IT people do) you can image until your site license runs out and stick that install on lots of systems. For business this isn't too much of a big deal (many of which probably won't upgrade over Win2k until they need hardware replacement) and for home users this isn't much of a problem as long as you aren't trying to use someone else's copy. Due to a really interesting lack of information the Yahoo article doesn't really say shit. You have to provide hardware information to the MS run clearing house. So what is going to be requested and what sort of fail-overs will be enacted? Since they aren't saying yet it is pretty fucking stupid to jump to conclusions. Not even Microsoft would be so base as to not allow you to reinstall your purchased copy of Windows on a machine you rebuilt or upgraded.
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
I know there's been some pretty sophisticated counterfeiting: I lived for two years near South Africa -- before the old regime freed Mandela -- and the local computer shops were full of American software supposedly on the sanctions list. Yes, I bought it, and yes, it worked just fine.
On the other hand, it may be credible that most pirated software is simply "borrowed and copied" from a friend or officemate. There've been ways to thwart that for years. Remember the dongle? If MS was simply interested in thwarting piracy, they could adopt other tactics.
BTW, theoligical tantrums aside, Win2000 really is a pretty slick piece of work, all things considered. Current Windows users who don't/can't move to another platform should check it out.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
if you agree then you agree. there really isnt that much to it. if you dont read it befor you agree then it's your own fault. if the eula says that you can only install it on one computer at a time then so be it. one argument you might have is when you get an oem where it is pre-installed. the the oem should explain the license to you and have you sign something saying you understand what you are buying and what you can do with it.... most (i believe) dont do this. at least the store where i worked they didnt do this.
use LaTeX? want an online reference manager that
-- john
I can't wait to see how this policy is handled by IT departments....
Microsoft's business model and valuation are both based on continuous growth. They are between a rock and a hard place. They *can't* get by with the revenue they used to - their stock will collapse, and that stock price is their lifeblood. They have to find some way to milk the market for ever more or they are toast.
--
Life's a bitch but somebody's gotta do it.
I have been working with the Whistler Adv Server Beta 1 for about a month or so. It has no such security checks. It seems to me that there will be a huge market for cracks to this - while I won't do it myself for what should be obvious reasons, since this product is already floating around the warez world, it should be pretty straight forward to compare the install files of beta one and the release version to decypher and break the new protection. This is going to be a VERY unpopular "feature", and hopefully there will be sufficient backlash from consumers to kill it.
Ironically it is the consumer version that they are most worried about - most users of server/adv server/etc will be licensed, its the personal, and to some extent professional versions that are the most pirated. (is pirating a pirate piracy?)
At least its stable - win 2k gives me far more trouble than whistler does, and runs much faster.
On that note i think i'll leave before the flames burn me (hey my p133/red hat 6.2 is still faster than windows on a machine 4x "faster")
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers. Shakespeare, Henry VI, Part 2, Act 4, Scene 2
Ahh, but students might get into the mindset that the license is NOT inherently tied to the physical CD. Solution? Charge $5 for a CD, to get them in the habit of using a "legitimate" copy.
--
Except that courts have ruled that copying from the CD-ROM to your hard-disk (or hard-disk to RAM) is making a copy. This requires the copyright holder's permission and is not part of your rights gained when buying the CD.
Therefore, unless you agree to the license, you don't have any legal right to copy the software to your hard disk.
Further, copying the software (to RAM or Hard Disk) in excess of the license IS a copyright violation.
This is a defect (bug) in the copyright law, IMO.
Reportedly, it's going to work like this. (I don't know for sure ... I've never seen it, and I haven't installed this build.) The MAC address of your NIC is trasmitted with your PID when you register. That's ALL. If you try to install the software with the same PID on another machine, and the MAC address doesn't match up, you're denied. If you have built a new machine, and need to install it, you've have a toll-free number to call where you can re-activate the PID. This same number can be used to register the PID if you don't have a modem line.
Now, in the Beta newsgroup, Micrsoft has specifically told us not to get our panties in a bunch ... most of the internet reports are WRONG (including mine above) in some form or another ... no one has it right yet, and not to believe them. We'll have more info closer to Beta 2. But the system is going to be non-invasive, and all of the arguments we're having have already been had within MS.
Personally, while I don't LIKE the idea, I understand why it's being done. They've let casual copying go WAY too long, and many small companies are not license compliant. Mine just bought over $100K in licenses that we owed through several buyouts. It's easy to fall out of compliance ... this should stop that.
This form of protection seems to be of the type that requires the box to "phone homw". I suspect this phone home Address will probably be hard wired into the whistler implementation, and my guess it will be a dedicated address SOLELY for this purpose. So, slashdotters, how long before instructions either at the localhost file, or even better at the firewall, that blocks the address, and prevents the machine from phoning home? I suspect the machine will be considered authuntecated by default.
Require a smart-card reader (perhaps a cheap USB one included free with purchase the OS - if USB mice can be $7, so can smart-card readers!), with the license to the software contained on a smart-card. NOT the user's identity, or any other info - ONLY the software license.
Odd thing though...
Corporations get different versions of the software with their Select agreement that usually don't have these locks in place.
Wow, must be a slow day for moderators...
Slashdot should have a 'Paranoid Maniac' option in their moderate selections.
...with the exception of software that is REQUIRED to connect to a server to work because of client/server authentication (i.e. McAfee's Oil Change). I expect to see a crack within a week of the release of Whistler.
Exactly. The crack will be out the day Whistler comes out.
And let me guess, your license on let's say, Whistler, or Solitaire runs out after 2 years? That's bye bye abandonware?. This may be a good thing for people who want to protect their copyright, but really, this is too much, don't you think?
-Stskeeps, http://unrealircd.com
Considering the price of some software thies days (Into the thousands) [and I rember when $20 was expensive...] it seems reasonable to assume people won't upgrade unless forced..
Microsoft cupples the two prong attack of simi-reasonable pricing with forced updates...
($200 and less.. and I'm still having flashbacks to "This is ?$25?" when my mother was looking at a powerful software pacage I wanted...)...
This keeps Microsoft in busness selling software to the masses...
A forced single path upgrade..
How about a ZERO upgrade path... woohooo.. No upgrade path whatsoever.. Most users would do this if given half a chance..
And it haults piracy and thats a good thing.. I'm all for that... commertal software isn't free and giving it away for free hurts both commertal software [that lives/dies on proffits] and free software [that lives/dies on popularity]..
I'm all for anything that makes non-free software stay non-free and and makes free software the ONLY option when you don't want to spend money..
So.. good job.. yes... forced zero upgrade path is good for me...
Then when upgrades become absolutly nessisary... You have no choice but to dump and start over... Linux, BSD, BeOs and MacOs have a fair shot...
I don't actually exist.
If you don't have a list of those dll's, their versions, sizes and timestamps (checksum might be handy too) then your security is not doing it's job.
I am a Unix flake with complete ignorance of M$ products (as much ignorance as I can preserve anyway!). However, it would not take me very long to get that list regularly and build an automated check. If it *isn't* being done, how do you know you aren't sitting on a Trojan.
So I am sure you would find it useful. Question is, why don't you have it. My shared libs are checked nightly. So should everyones.
You are talking about 100000+ PCs. A nice "coup" for a DDOS freak. You are advertising them as being "insecure". Is your employer aware of this?
Zero Sum [Vescere bracis meis]
Zero Sum (don't amount to much). [root@localhost]
> I'm still using 95 (when I have to).
Nobody is holding a gun to your head? Really?
Reality you can do anything with anything... you don't "have to" use Windows UNLESS someone is holding that mediphorical gun...
I don't actually exist.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
It's not that bad, I've had to do it several times (motherboard swaps, new hard drives, etc.). Each time I just emailed Wolfram and got a new key, no questions asked.
"My mother works for Microsoft now. A whole other cult."
Now M$ will require me to have a Nic or modem. Or be forced to take time out of my day to call them for a number. Are they willing to guarantee call centre's that answer my call quickly. How about an OS that never crashes. Can you imagine calling them for a new number for every reinstall. Adding to a companies support costs seems to be a ridulous way to sell a product. Unless they are willing to seriously improve service and support along with quality why upgrade?
By definition, a government has no conscience. Sometimes it has a policy, but nothing more. - Albert Camus
One OEM manufacturers' representative (ABS computers) told me the restore CD is keyed off of a product ID in the BIOS. Of course, this means that if you upgrade with a third-party BIOS you lose the ability to reinstall your HD with the restore CD.
Not everyone has Internet access, you know. And out of those that do, many of them pay by the minute or hour for their calls, adding to the price of the (already expensive) software.
This is even more troubling for Pissler than for Visual Studio.NET and Office, since the machine is so dependent on the operating system. What happens if the customer has a strange network setup that Windows can't detect on install? Is he still allowed to use Control Panel and the like before activating the software? Or is the user stuck with a dead operating system until he can mail in a form? (allow several weeks for processing and delivery)
--
Friends don't let friends misuse the subjunctive.
When Windows 2000 was coming out. It was selling on all the corners over in china BEFORE it was publicly released. This was not beta version, but full versions. They sold for just a few $ too. At the time of the Win2K release, it was said that Win2K would only work on one computer but shortly after it was found out that it could be installed on multiple computers.
I run 98 at the house. I bought it. But running 9 computers tends to become exspensive when your OS costs $200 (any ideas how much Whistler will be? Likely to cost as much as NT and MS is trying to merge the 9x/NT lines) for 1 comp. There is always Linux with WINE. WINE keeps getting better and better at emulating window's apps too.
Either one of the following will happen:
1. MS shoots themselves in the foot and a bunch of people jump to linux
2. Patches are created to patch the OS into working as modifying the MAC on the nic card can cause a problem for a network (even a home network like I have)
3. People dig deep into their pockets to purchase Whistler for each computer they have
4. MS turns the feature completely off due to issues and/or problems
On a side note, did you know that MS is the only company I know of that people will buy a beta version from to have it expire and have to purchase another beta. MS probably turns a good penny just on the beta's alone.
Even more than the licenseing issue this is a privacy problem.
Microsoft is able to tie the software license key to a real person who talks to them and has to enter some "relevant data". You can bet this is not going to be just machine information but also WHO with your address and possibly phone number.
So now microsoft is going to know exactly who is behind the MSFT key XYZ when you connect to microsoft.com and hotmail.com.
This is the only way I'd use something like Whistler (named after the sound of crackers blowing through a 1000 security holes). I mean, do you *really* wanna put it out where the the things that go bump in the night live? Chris
Chris
So Buddha walks into a pizza parlor and says: "Hey, make me one with everything."
I'm guessing that its impossible to even install whistler on a box with no NIC (not that it ever happens here), but could I not install whistler on my laptop if I had my pcmcia lan card removed? would I have to buy a NIC just to get whistler or what?
It drives me crazy that people keep making hardgood theft analogies to IP theft. Be it napster or pirated windows, it's a different kind of stealing. When you steal a ford, it's gone. The dealer paid money for it and can't recover the costs because you are out joy riding in it. Secondly you never own softgoods, you just own the right to use/enjoy them.
A much better analogy would be to compare software piracy to photocopying a book at the library when no one is looking,
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Okay so let me get this straight:
:(
1) I can't buy a volume license for Windows 95.
2) I can't get a CD of the OS I paid for from an OEM.
3) I can't get my money back from an OEM for the OS I paid for.
4) I can't buy a 'naked' PC from MS approved OEM's (not yet - they are just recommending it - to avoid 'liability')
Take the above and add.
5) I can't access a copy prevented HD with Linux (violation of DCMA).
6) I can't complain about any of this (violation of UCITA).
Check and Mate to Mr. Bill Gates
The frog is getting warm people, WAKE THE F*CK UP!!!
-Shieldwolf
just = (My)Opinion.toCents();
Don't dismiss anything MS does as an instant "bad idea". If MS decides to change their licensing scheme to include this protection against privacy, it's not some seat-of-the-pants decision. It's because they've studied the situation and how to act upon it and feel they can effectively make more money this way.
Sure they're evil, but they're good at it.
--Brogdon
This tagline is umop apisdn.
You could put this on your CPRM enabled hard drive!
General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
Here in Australia, this happens already with Office 2K (or at least the one bought off the shelf :) ). If you don't have a net connection, then you get to ring up the nice Microsoft rep. Office invents this huge string and the rep gives you the response to it. Luckily the MSDN version of Office isn't crippled in this way. Perhaps the same will hold true for Whistler ?
It's your *right* to copy software. Any software. Any Information.
Go read www.gnu.org. Especially the stuff on intellectual property.
The general points are:
1) How much money does a person have a right to make from an idea? If I come up with one vital idea a week before anyone else does, do I have the right to live in the lap of luxury for the rest of my life? I don't think so.
2) If you buy something, does the seller have any right to tell you what you may do with it?
3) Copying information is not stealing, unless you can steal potential profits. Microsoft had the same amount of money before and after I copied "their" software.
4) Enforcement of copyright eventually leads to the banning of open source [and free(dom)] software since they can be used to copy information. If you don't believe me, then just think back to the DeCSS fiasco.
Copy software. It's your right.
Ping!
Simon
/-\-/
In the old days we used to have NICs with field swappable ROMs for the address. Now many high-end NICs allow programming.
See my journal, I write things there
OK so you submitted an article about this before one that got accepted. So what ? The other guy could obviously get the concepts and interesting ideas across to the editors better than you did.
The editorial staff may have received 20 or 30 articles like yours, but at the end of the day they have to decide on one, and it just wasn't your lucky day.
And yes, I have had articles both accepted and rejected. And I'm brave enough to not post anonymously.
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
In which case, I predict great popularity for NICs whose MAC addresses can be changed programmatically. And wouldn't it be fun to know your enemy's MAC and start registering lots of fun things to him?
"If I have seen further than other men, it is by stepping on their glasses." - Michael Swaine
I've got dibs on DE:AD:BE:EF:CA:CA!
CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.
> Microsoft is here today and will be tomorrow. Deal or don't use thier stuff.
Any company can be crushed... Microsoft is resillent.. However Microsoft is also the main target of every marketting nuke and every antitrust lawyer who wants to make a name for himself.
I don't actually exist.
As the other poster said, it'll probably mean Microsoft select. We're talking big companies here (university size at least).At a guess, maybe 5% of all companies have a select agreement and it definately wont be based on need for no registration (that's just about everybody), it'll be based on how much you buy from MS.
Nerd: Derogatory term typically directed at anybody with a lower Slashdot ID than you.
It's a limited license that allows you to run the program for 50 sessions (I'm not sure what exactly qualifies as a session, but I have a pretty good feeling a session can last a maximum of 24 hours).
You consistently get 24 real hours out of MS-Office? How? I've never been able to do that.
I have, on the other hand, had StarOffice 5.2 open for many weeks at a time (my main computer becomes portable once a month, else it would be longer), used for various things daily, and nary a crash (under Mandrake 7.2rc1 on a K6-II-300).
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
..for two reasons
a) playing Games
b) running Office
Hopefully now KOffice is taking shape I will have no reason to run Windows for b).
Now can someone pleeeeze get Diablo I/II running on Linux so I can remove a) also ?
:-)
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
I assume that if you have responsibility for technical purchases for this business, that in the future you will spec "NO COPY PROTECTION" on the purchase order. If the product turns out to be protected in such a way, you declare the PO void and take the vendor to court unless they refund your money or provide you a version without it. If they won't, find a competitor that will. If their isn't one, there's a market opportunity for you :).
CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.
If the OS only checks for authentication with a clearinghouse once to "activate" the OS, what's to prevent ghosting?
One person will install the software, authenticate, and then create a ghost image. From there, people will just distribute the ghost image instead of an actual copy of the CD (well, maybe *with* a copy of the CD).
And if they decide to make it check periodically? Pfft. For "home users", either someone will create a "crack" for it so that it won't check anymore, or they'll trick the system into thinking it authenticated correctly. And actual business users? I doubt they'll embrace an OS that won't run on "secure" machines (i.e. not connected to the outside world -- I know my work has several NT servers that have no outside access).
> 1. How would it be specifically tied to the PC? (There was some very vague speculation, but nothing concrete)
Mistake.. it's tied to OS not hardware..
Basicly when you get a new machine there is new hardware, new drivers... Try getting Voodoo 3 drivers for Windows 3.11...
So eventually your old Windows 98 won't run the latest video cards etc.. [This happends in Linux also.. Try using a Voodoo 3 on Linux 1.x kernel]
Eventually you MUST upgrade the OS...
In short it's tied to OS.. Os is tied to hardware.. But it's not even remotely as bad as stated..
>2. What happens if the computer doesn't have an internet connection? (I don't think MS will completely ignore this)
Windows 95.. What happends if the user is still using a 286? Dosn't have a VGA?
At the time Windows 95 was released XTs and 286s were still being produced... and systems were still sold with Herc Mono displays...
No Internet connection? Well to bad..
Microsoft is aimming at Internet delivery of software...
On the other hand the software may unlock automaticly with no network connectivity... software piracy isn't much of a threat when there is no net...
> 3. Why would they make it so complicated and time consuming, when I (a lowly CS student) can think of better and easier ways to do something similar. (While they have an entire marketing department, and last time I checked they don't ignore the obvious, especially when it comes to money)
They are pritty good at ignoring the obveous...
Your a collage student.. why worry about what you could create when Microsoft can just fud you into oblivion....
Thats the addadtue they take and have yet to realise it's the wrong addatude...
I don't actually exist.
can't you just like 'fake' it... copy the authentication sequence from an actual attempt, have another computer feed that in through a nic? i'm sure its possible, maybe only for smart people
document.alert('i am cool');
Comment removed based on user account deletion
what about installations on systems w/o a net connection? would it just check every day or something? Microsoft, more ways to make your life difficult Can you say "Bloatware" children?
___ alwaysBETA.com - Hey, you've got nothing better to do.
I know I'm switching to Linux when Whistler gets released.
Lastly: I built my own computer, and if Whistler only ships in upgrade format or with new PCs, does this mean I can't build computers anymore? Sounds like someone's paying them to grant a monopoly.
Aciel
aciel@speakeasy.net
this isnt really as bad as it sounds. from what i have read and been told, basically you will install the software, then have approximately 30 days to authenticate your software. you don't have to do it online either, you can call their customer service dept and they will authenticate your software by giving you some sort of unlocking code. while this is a hassle, especially to someone deploying hundreds of Whistler workstations, maybe it will finally cut down on pirated MS software. (besides, you know that cracked warez versions will be made very soon after they RTM the final build...)
*** For a better tommorow, change your life today ***
MS to AMD: Sorry, our OS only recognizes the Pentium serial #, no, you can't sue us for being a monopoly, that has already happened
It has. Your next 64-bit AMD CPU will be running Linux or a BSD, *not* Windows. AMD squinted at the wall and read, ``Mene, mene, tekel upharsin.'' (-:
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
PC makers like Dell already offer Linux as a choice of OS, so I seriously doubt they would do this (unless M$ pays them off big time), and other hardware makers won't do it because they're not going to tie their products/profits to a single version of a single OS.
If they come up with a different licensing pricing of that kind, what will happend is that lots and lots of little business that are actually paying (part of full) their license will then switch to the "Home" - and cheap - version, cutting precious profits ...
Does Microsoft really believe that the companies that do not give all employees net access will just start doing it now, just for a new OS?
I can't really imagine opening my secure lab up for this every time I need to rebuild a Windows box, much less a huge company opening the network for all the neophytes. This is just another open port for people to fuck with, continuing their tradition of insecure OSs.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
if linux would do that too. It's free, but you gotta redowload it everytime you want to install it on another machine. Maybe I should submit a feature request...
Alot of time and effort goes in to creating a quality, industry-strength OS that performs.
Absolutely! Microsoft should try it with Windows, instead of pumping resources into marketing and ``badge-engineering'' other people's software (or software companies). It might work for them one day.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Or, if some types are really industrious, they may be able to go to a cracker-run "clearinghouse" to get the copy activated.
Like most "anti-piracy" initiatives (in software and in music) this one is probably designed to keep up appearances and keep the lamers from copying at will. Anyone with half a brain will be able to defeat it...
Then again, anyone with half a brain will probably not be using Whistler.
Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.
A version of this is already being done on some MS products.
AFAIK, Office 2000 and Frontpage 2000 already have this incorporated. It's a limited license that allows you to run the program for 50 sessions (I'm not sure what exactly qualifies as a session, but I have a pretty good feeling a session can last a maximum of 24 hours). Sometime during that period, you must register the product with Microsoft (either over Internet, over modem, or through Fax or mail.) The two direct electronic ones send you an electronic key that executes and registers the product. The fax or mail ones, they send you back a disk that has an executable to run. Either way, this registers this particular program to your particular computer.
Now, I've tried installing to another computer (we were waiting for our Worldwide Fulfillment shipment of 300 OEM CD's of Office 2000, and went to WallyWorld and got a copy to install on a couple machines.). I couldn't register both machines, but it did give me a # to call if I had a dispute (the one most people have brought up, upgrading the machine).
As long as you're not a thief, you should be fine.... but if you are a thief, mark my words, it'll be cracked, either with a keygen or a simple crack.
Oh, and those installing it in bulk via a utility like Ghost, read the Yahoo article again. It says at the bottom that exceptions will be made for OEM copies, which is what Microsoft sells most often for bulk licensing.
-----------------------
Or, another possibility: They've had this in mind for a while, with an eye toward implementing it once the world economy was sufficiently dependent on their products, but are implementing early because of declining market share and a perceived future opportunity loss.
OK,
- B
--
http://www.bradheintz.com/
- updated
It just means that cracked copies will become mainstream. This entire idea of controlling our harddrives is really starting to get out of hand. This isn't about stopping piracy, this is about controlling your desktop.
The Game Guy
in case you havnt noticed the compleat lack of copy protection in windows, you can install windows 3.1->9x->2k without even useing the original CD and even as far as using the "software key" from any MS product, ive used the key from ms works to instll win98 a few times. ive install windows from cd,harddrive,zip,and a few other ways. MS isnt about to start copy protection now. the more people who use windows the better for them even if they dint pay for it (i.e. IE) assuming MS did do this, all that would happen would be more of a move to other OSs like linux,BeOS or others that are cheaper. ms would lose money and share of the desktop market and ms isnt going to let thet happen
With this slashdot story and this story from The Register, it is clear that Microsoft is now fighting the battle at both ends. A new PC means a new Operating system. Thanks God that Microsoft isn't in the automobile business, a new set of wheels would mean a new car right?
Bizar technology?
"You shouldn't pay for the software, you should pay for the effort it took to give it to you."
So, does this effort include the millions of dollars spent on research and development of the system? Or are the supposed to do that for free too...
Bill Gates is follopwing the right path here. The one to oblivion.
The majority of casual software pirates are just that - causual. They wouldnt do it except it's so damn easy.
Yes, but the casual pirates aren't the ones "hurting" MS' balance sheet, it's the mass piracy folks out of Taiwan, etc, burning several tens of thousands of copies and flooding the black market with them. And this new scheme is hardly likely to stop them for long, someone will eventually hack the reg. key or bypass it altogether and the pirates will be right back at it.
This one is just going to make it difficult for the casual (and hardly harmful) pirate and make it very annoying for the average user who will now have to either ask Bill's permission to upgrade his PC or buy a new copy of Windows.
ChodaBoy
- The preceding statement is the product of a deranged mind and the sole property of the voices in my head.
I think this will hurt Microsoft less than it seems. Most new computers ship with the OS anyway, and Windows already was so cumbersome to install that few people bothered.
``Microsoft's authentication server's been down for four hours now, and we need that documentation out today! What can we do?''
[play dragnet tune] ``Well, I'm just back from the newsagent, and here's this Pocket Linux thingy, and it says it has gnomes in it with bits of StarOffice on an eazel, or something...'' [pan to Pocket Linux pack, the penguin on it winks]
[two days later] ``Hey, Microsoft's back on line again! Should I re-install Windows now?''
``Nah, maybe later. We're too busy catching up on our word-processing right now.'' [pan to PL pack, penguin is grinning and thumbs-up]
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Anyone who has worked at any large corporation knows that Microsoft makes a Select series of installation CDs. These CDs are often (always?) free of needing any CD Keys, and do not require any additional registration. High security installations are usually government, and I'm sure that any government department which requires that level of security *probably* has a Select subscription anyway. I'm not condoning clearinghouse registration, just that scenario most probably wont be a problem.
---
Video meliora proboque deteriora sequor - Ovidius
one more good reason to not to use M$ products.
ound the message used repetitively over and over still nothing grows silen
Can anyone say "Right to Privacy" violation? Last time I checked there was a problem with privacy rights violation when someone wanted to use their (well known) little hidden hardware id (cough... I..n..t..e..l cough... cough...) that they transmitted via the Internet for secure transactions. What gives M$ the right to gather any information about my PC. I thought they, among others, were told by our courts that they couldn't do that when they tried to sneak info off our systems whenever we went to websites. Also many people have pointed out that this screams of DivX (DVD with X-tra Bill-ing type crap), and I tend to agree. However, M$ may have the money to force the i$$ue where Circuit $hitty lost. Then as someone else pointed out, how long is it really going to be before script kiddies run a few of their Denial Of Service scripts? That ought to really piss people off, not to mention M$ I'm pretty sure that Billy-boy is just lining up the market for his next brilliant marketing scheme of always having to authenticate a program prior to running it (M$Office 10). Many people have said there will most likely be a crack out either before Whistler hits the shelves, or shortly after it arrives. I have two views to this: 1) If nobody bothers to waste the time on a crack, then many people won't be able to install/copy it and further M$'s grasp. Instead they will have to look for alternative OS's or bite the bullet. I don't believe most people will buy two or three copies before the light goes on that there has to be a better/cheaper solution. By cracking it, and getting more people using it, you just help M$ proliferate their crap, and help increase the demand for products on the M$ OS. 2) If anyone had bothered to pay attention to the articles, they claim that the "'Royalty OEM initial install images' provided to PC makers " will not include this protection. So, it appears that M$ has already provided the crack for everyone. Thanks Bill, you've really got a lot of people screaming about a lot of nothing... What are you really trying to slide under the bridge before the DOJ notices this time? BTW how's that anti-trust suit going? AWWWW, still dragging on? To bad. I sure hope Justice prevails >) (she may be blind but she's not stupid). I just hope she can't be bought. So what's the plan if yer split? Really, Balmy-boy gets M$-West, while you step up to take control of M$-East and further the empire. Gee I wouldn't think there would be any collusion between two old school-yard buddies, never. What's the move when you get caught with your pants down on that one?
For them to push in this direction tells me that MS has been told some encouraging things by the incoming administration, in addition to being emboldened by the success of DMCA and UCITA. (shudder)
If they're serious about this, then they've just created a dramatic barrier to entry to Whistler, et al. Of course, if they see older alternatives are eating into their Whistler sales, they could stop selling new Win98/2000 licenses. People would then be in a nasty bind... but signs of strife that significant might send people scurrying to Apple and Linux in droves.
When push comes to shove, I'd guess Microsoft will realize that they've already become the richest fucks in the world via the old ("rampant piracy") system, and almost certainly back down from rocking the boat. See Intel and their CPUID fiasco.
An effort to force a massive and fundamental change in the way software is licensed and used would probably require an effort on the scale of a massive conspiracy. At the moment I don't give MS and Co. that much credit.
In the meantime, we have some more breathing room to discover a new intellectual property doctrine that actually works...
We're on the road to Tycho.
Well?
I install it into my machine sans NIC, then install one at a later time?
I'm thinking that they would bind it to something like....That SID on your P3 or P4.
Justathought.
Come on.
With Linux and OpenOffice about to hit critical
mass they had to try something, they're just
scraping the bottom of the barrel.
Squeezing the last droplets of blood out of
corpse, Nosfuroto probably tried this on his
last victim too.
What do companys hurting do about Christmas time?
Try their best to convience you they're going to
stay in this business, then close the shop
doors, and bail January 1.
The only serious people here are the people
freaking out.. Gates and Balmer decided to
join the UNIX camp long ago.. but far from
Linux, I think they're headed for the BSD
camp.. better security reputation.
As for Whistler and its children.. people in big
orgs can't and won't afford it.. they're be
looking for the Microsoft PC, or the next best
thing, a Royalty firm in bed with Microsoft to
provide MS-OEM equipment, probably on lease..
makes more sense if you have to deal with this
licensing mess..
Meanwhile.. the X-Box will be the consumer pitch,
which has already failed.. it'll barely reach
market before thats cancelled.. anybody recall
Microsoft Bob? WinCE? Microsoft Tax? They
have no hesitation over bailing on a market
play with full force in a hurry. Faster they
bail, sooner everyone forgets.. they don't
leave loose strings lying about to come back
and strangle them with..
The real 'new' frontier will be the morphing of .Net modules into an application
the Microsoft
layer over the POSIX standard, all the while
building on its foundation.
It's an easy transition with the work done by
Cygwin, Ming and Wine.. though since they will
be proprietary, and will do the silly XOR 255
a few times over their code.. the silliest
thing they might do is the Microsoft "JVM runs
our code" ploy and change a couple of
instructions so its not plain X86.. but darned
near.. Transmeta should get an infinging
injunction ready.
See www.c-computer.com.
What, haven't your ever gotten a PC with Microsoft Works installed? It doesn't get any more coach than that.
The truth shall set you free!
You have to register with MS every time you install office 2000. You also can't register more than 2 times over the internet. After that you have to call them up and explain why you have to reinstall it. (I just said that my computer got royally screwed and I had to reformat the disk, they don't question that)
If it won't run on my non internet connected machines, then it's invasive.
The truth shall set you free!
I know a number of people running copied versions of Windows and Office on home machines who are also dual booting to Linux. If these people were faced with even a $300 software bill for OS & office apps, their next machine would be missing that Windows partition. The more people (myself included) get used to using Linux as a day to day desktop, learning the idiosyncracies, the better off we'll all be.
You couldn't be thinking of Lotus 123 maybe?
The truth shall set you free!
just another way to make life more difficult... Can you say "bloatware" children? sure you can!
___ alwaysBETA.com - Hey, you've got nothing better to do.
FUD? We never doubted windows would crash, be buggy and upgrades woud be incompatible with some of your hardware/software.
The truth shall set you free!
I work for a small but technically oriented company that unfortunately has to use Microsoft products for our workstations and servers and embedded products. We have lately come across this problem with Office 2000, and it's a downright pain. We don't like doing auth transactions like these through the Internet, for security reasons we call the registrar (for lack of a better term) and get it over with over the phone. We also fairly often upgrade computers (like, new comp, old one's parts turned into a test computer or something, with a license for an older full copy of an OS (Like NT 4 or Windows 95). The software people don't like it when we do this, it's a mess every time, and I'd frankly like them to well, trust us... We audit our computers very often, most of the time employees don't load anything except freeware stuff without asking, and the IS guy has a pretty good idea what is on the computers. Having to call in 25 times for 25 different installations of MS Office is just silly.
If there's a better way to do it, remember that I'm not the IS guy, so I'm not involved in the decisions...
"Titanic was 3hr and 17min long. They could have lost 3hr and 17min from that."
IBM had PL/1, with syntax worse than JOSS,
And everywhere the language went, it was a total loss...
Of the articles I read, they did not answer a few questions.
1. How would it be specifically tied to the PC? (There was some very vague speculation, but nothing concrete)
2. What happens if the computer doesn't have an internet connection? (I don't think MS will completely ignore this)
3. Why would they make it so complicated and time consuming, when I (a lowly CS student) can think of better and easier ways to do something similar. (While they have an entire marketing department, and last time I checked they don't ignore the obvious, especially when it comes to money)
Just a thought, while you all are screaming "the sky is falling!"
Mathematica (for students, v. 3.0 for Windows) had a similar process when I installed it. It didn't require internet connectivity to get your "product key" but you still needed to talk to Wolfram Products to finish the install. The process was something like this, IIRC:
You install Mathematica using the license number included on your license. The install process generates a "Mathematica Computer Code" or something, generated via some algorithm and based at least in part on your hardware configuration/registry configuration. Then you call/email/snail-mail/web-page-ize this code number to Wolfram, as well as your vitals (name, address, etc). They spit back at you another code number that you give to Mathematica. It completes the install and you're on your way. Wolfram mails you a "real" license in a couple of weeks (the one in the box was just a "temp" license).
If you ever need to reinstall Mathematica or install it on another computer, you need to call Wolfram and get a new code to match your new computer code. Since I haven't gotten there (yet-- my win95 partition recently crashed and I haven't reinstalled....) I don't know what the "re-licensing" process is like.
In any case, this seems a little friendlier than Microsoft's little game. The Mathematica manual clearly outlines what you need to do if you change your hardware, and you don't need to be connected to the internet to get your new license number. It's still a bit of a pain, but it does a good job of protecting Mathematica's interests without being -too- much of a hassle to the user.
I don't recall (nor do I have immediately available) what the license's provisions re: reselling are.
Ok, say you buy the software, get the unique number, then install it. All you have to do after it installs is to dump the windows directory from your harddrive onto a cd with your burner, that way you can just copy the cd onto other computers' hard drives. Then you have to just adjust the drivers and hardware configuration accordingly. It sounds that easy, based on the info provided from the article, allthough, I bet the major cracking groups have this build of whistler, and are working hard right now to crack it.
I know you are... doesn't make you wrong though.
Question reality.
Well it is interesting to see the semi-demise of a once great company.
I do not see this as anti-piracy, but money making squezze. If one reads the article they will notice that OEM's and large corporates still get "normal" license. This means a professional pirate can still continue on. However the normal user will be shafted. This means that anyone who has multiple computers or replaced a computer will automatically need to buy multiple licenses. So in effect we have a money making scheme.
But MS is forgetting something, I tried to explain this concept to my mother and she looked at me really puzzled. You see she is about to buy a notebook for when she visits the kids. She does not see the point of buying two copies of Office. As a result she considered using LINUX because she saw some pictures at CNN where it looked ok. And her decision was made out of principle, which in my eyes is dangerous for MS.
You know after looking at the MS trial, and other fiascos, one really wonders where management is!!!
Bravo MS keep it up!!!!
"You can't make a race horse of a pig"
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
As a consultant in Hong Kong, one obvious consequence I see is that most of the Asian countries are forced to look at alternatives, especially when some have just started in using the PC and not as tied up to the Windows platform. Imagine China, huge population, all ready to start buying their PC, well over 90% got used to pirated software, suddenly discovers that their software is more expensive then their PC
Well no fear, China's president's son has already created a JV to create the Red Flag chinese linux distro, so who's not going to listen to the son of a communist country?
do not in anyway underestimate anybody, especially yourself
My name is Reid, I will soon be a linux user.
-Reid
What happens if the machine doesn't have a net connection at installation time? or ever?
CA does the same stupid thing. Setting their software up on a machine that has no net access requires reading 26 digit numbers with no hypenation to someone over the phone without making a mistake and then having them read you back a huge number. In short, a complete pain. Change a piece of hardware that is used to id the machine and the license becomes void, another phone call. The problem is, if MS does this, the call volume will be incredible. How do they prove that you didn't get a new PC? They'll just have to give you a new license. Ok, it cuts down some, but It'll be a logistical nightmare for them.
News clippings provided by: Ridiculopathy.com
I had this dream where I just typed "whistler install crack" into Google, and read the procedure to circumvent the installation prevention to my new machine. My new installation ran smoothly, while I listened to whatever I damn well pleased from Napster on my old box. When I woke up I was relieved to find that I was running Linux anyways. *whew*
Most M$ sales, I understand, are from OEM pre-installs. As PC sales decline, they've had to get creative to keep profitability up.
For example, if your HP pavilion comes pre-installed with Works2000, Outlook aparently needs it to forward simple no-attachment messages. To uninstall it (if you no longer have the CD that came with the unit), you need to actually go out and buy the ap you never wanted in the first place.
Is this a common practice- to require the CD to uninstall?
Cut to a scene from The Matrix 2, where we find out who's feeding on the flesh of the living...
www.ridiculopathy.com
Sure, I use Linux, but I've been a loyal Microsoft fan and reseller since DOS 2.0 and the 8088 (BTW, my 8088 still works and the Seagate 30MB HDD is flawless). If they go ahead with this idea, then that's it. I'm done with them. Once you try to force copy-protection down my throat, you will lose my loyalty. If you think that most major corporations run MS products because they like you, think again. Most of them hate your guts. You're just giving them further reason to look elsewhere. There always comes a time when the economies of scale of choosing B over the Standard A makes sense. Don't cross that line.
pi=sigma{n:0-infinity}[(1/16)^n][(4/(8n+1))-(2/(8n +4))-(1/ (8n+5))-(1/(8n+6))]
When sopmeone assumes something they make an Ass out of U and Me. I could not resist saying this because everyone is assuming that you will have to pay for a new OS when you get a new machine or upgrade.
1. All you have to do is call or go online and get a new authentication code. You DO NOT have to buy a new OS.
2. It would probably take a new machine alltogether to deactivate the OS. Just adding a CD-RW drive will not deactivate your version of windows.
3. Microsoft is here today and will be tomorrow. Deal or don't use thier stuff.
- If you don't like it change the channel... Oh wait Steve Case is the one who actually owns everything, it doesn't matter.
what about driver development? lets say company X wants to build a driver for thier new graphics card Y. will they require a seperate development license? what if the machine they got the license for was incorrectly set up and they needed to change the motherboard, CPU or bios? i think the problem with this type of protection is that users cannot legitimately upgrade their existing hardware. if you destroy/sell your old laptop, and you dont pass on the windows installation disks (maybe they dont want them) then you still own the license - and should be free to re-install it on your new machine.
:))
M$ will probably store the "information" into the system registry somewhere.. i am sure it wont be long before someone figures out where it is, and posts a solution on a warez website somewhere
Yes, we are all supposed to be good little open source programmers donating our skill and energy to making computing better for the whole open source world...
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
Yeah, the stuff from the grocery store (MS) is higher in fat and in general not as good for you too...
It may be easier to prepare, but the extra effort you put into your garden may well be worth it.
;)
± 29 dB
I'm still using 95 (when I have to).
The full version is supposed to install as an upgrade, but it doesn't always work, and when it doesn't, there's some registry hack or file rename you have to do.
From what I recall, I think you have to rename win.com or something before installing so it doesn't detect the version, but I could be wrong.
Sorry - when I moved on to a real job, I formatted the part of my brain that contained that knowledge so I could use it for something useful. :)
I'm a MUD addict and I actually paid for a client called ZMUD (because I use it so damn much and I feel Zugg should get something for his work :) )... they recently started incorporating ELicense, which is just another anti-piracy code. However, with ELicense, you can use your license on up to 3 different machines, but none simultaneously.
Because ZMUD is an internet application (glorified telnet mostly) theres no problem with connecting to verify the license #. However, there is an option, if you plan on upgrading, reformatting, whatever, to unlicense your product and relicense it later with the same #. I didn't see what mentioned in the Whistler article and that could be a possibly better addition...
But again, how feasible is this anti-piracy code with any application that doesn't require the internet, because then connectivity with the PC isn't guaranteed.
*shakes her head*