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Have You Personally Used an Honest Head Hunter?
Haacked asks: "As a software manager, I've tried using recruiters and head hunters to find qualified employees. My experience is that used car salesman feel like paragons of integrity, in comparison. It seems their interests never lie with the job applicant, nor the company. However, I once read that some recruiters do act with integrity and actually care about the people they are trying to place. The book suggested finding a head hunter who is interested in a long term relationship with you (not for the commitment-phobic) and will serve more as a career counselor, attempting to find a position that meets your goals. Seems to me that establishing a long-term relationship with fewer as opposed to screwing people over in volume would make good business sense to garner repeat business. Have any of you ever worked with any firms you felt represented your interests well?"
No.
Have You Personally Used an Honest Head Hunter?"
Yes, a fellow named Jeffrey Dahmer. Nice guy, if a bit strange. I'd ask him what he did with the rest of the bodies but he always just gave me a sly grin.
I wonder what ever happened to him..
Trolling is a art,
Yeah, I think that generally when I get firm, you can tell I'm interested.
Ah, those college days...
Duane "Dog" Chapman was pretty good for me. See?
The best one I've worked with was working on a 6-month contract. He got paid either way, but he worked his buns off for us. And, he was dead-honest. Putting one on a 6-month payroll, though, probably defeats the purpose unless you have several positions to fill.
Amateurs discuss tactics. Professionals discuss logistics.
I've used the services of multiple agencies.
At first most of them had limited services and bad services. But once the trend caught up, I was able to find one that suited my needs and had great customer service. I personnaly love suppositories.
Shop around to compare the services offered by each of them and make your choice.
I've been used by one, does that count?
Wait, maybe that was abused...
A guy at the Ettain Group did his best for me, and wasn't upset when I chose a full-time job over the contract he offered me. But not knowing where you are, they may not be available to you.
-jls
Techno-pagan
Unfortunately, most head hunters do not get paid for employee retention or satisfaction, and simply earn dollars for every body they bring through the doors. As such, there's no incentive to ensure that things work out in anyone's best interest.
Ideally, long term employee satisfaction & retention should factor into the payroll equation.
They interviewed me after promising the client that they had a candidate, and presented me as though I had a long association with them. Not the most honest relationship, but my employer took the right-to-hire option and I'm happy with the turnout.
Head hunters are opportunists, and in my opinion are as straightforward as your average marketing department.
Squash
Isn't that like military intelligence or market analyst? Oxymorons I believe they are called.
All Ad hominem replies happily ignored as the sender shall be deemed to lack the faculties to comprehend the equation.
let me think....
no...definetly NO.
Most of the few headhunters I have spoken to have all been interested in longer term relationships. Building my resume became a group effort, me to excell in the positions, him to put me into them. It worked quite well.
I have spoken to one or two who presented themselves as one shot deals. Id rather use a temp agency then associate with someone with so little confidence in themselves, or me.
paul reinheimer
Mom and Dad were the best job finders for me. Of course if you don't want to work near family this might not work for you.
That must be short for www . FAILURE POST . com
Some headhunters work on retainer -- generally filling higher-level positions. They tend to put their client's interests first, because their compensation is already earned and because they work on a long-term basis. Others work on commission, filling a position for, say, 30% of the first-year salary. Many of these are, I understand, a bit less ethical.
When you speak with a headhunter trying to fill a position, just ask, "Are you on commission for this, or is it a retainer job?" You can learn a lot from that.
Got a call from a guy that's called me every 3-4 months last week.
Me: "I'm still pretty happy in my current job"
Him: "Well, we're looking for C# developers, but we'll interview people with java talent to fill those roles."
Me: "We're looking for Java talent as well, so if I knew good people, I think we'd take them."
Him: "Really?!? What's the hiring manager's name?"
Me: "I'm pretty sure he wouldn't want that information given out."
Him: "Fine... **click**"
I don't expect to hear from him in 3-4 months.
Shortly after introducing himself, asked me to sign a pledge declaring that I would not, under any circumstances, accept a counteroffer from my current employer.
One recruiter, who I had never met or spoken to, submitted my resume to the company I had just left two months previously! Not only that, but he grossly exaggerated my experience and qualifications.
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
I don't know about their other offices, but the LA/Orange County office in CA is good. They've remembered who I am when I called, and were up front about how slow the market was. I was pretty impressed that I got emails from one of the recruiters (forget her name) just letting me know that they were still looking. They eventually did get me a job, even though it took a while.
RandomAndInteresting.comdefending the world from stupidity since 1979
I've that honest head hunters, like the Eskimo, are an invention by the so called "scientific fiction" writers!
(with apologies to the Simpsons)
Once I actually found a headhunter that would talk to me, that is. Most were only interesting in people with very specific skills, experience, job history, and was a local candidate. I was looking to relocate and finding a headhunter willing to deal with an out of towner was extremely hard.
However, it still took a personal connection to get in touch with that right headhunter.
Like Diogenes and his search for an honest man, I personally have never been able to find an honest headhunter! The sleaziest incident was when one of them slipped me $1000 cash in an unmarked white envelope to quit the job I'd just started and go to work for the job he had been trying to set me up with but was taking too long. Ah, those were the good ol' days...
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
As for recruiters who try to help you out for free, don't forget, you get what you pay for.
Sarcasm and hyperbole are the final refuges for weak minds
They don't care about the employee or the employer.
Even though I was desperate for employment, I decided they weren't worth the trouble.
Not to mention all the OHHHH, that position was just filled after making an inqury about a posting on monster.com (or the like).
I guess I got lucky, the company I'm working for came looking for me....
No more Micro$oft bashing from me. Its like bashing at the special olympics.
Yes, I've dealt with good recruiters, but they are few and far between. Ultimately, like car salesmen (and everyone else for that matter), they normally think about short term or immediate gains and not long term ones. Most won't trust, believe, or value a long term relationship if it means possibly losing a short term win.
Network with others to find these good recruiters, and, more importantly, find good candidates. Use your people's contacts/friends to find the candidates based on people that they've worked with in the past.
However, I did like the Pencom guys back in the day, and an ex-pencom guy did find me my current job. Course, I was also a CT person but not anymore. I can say that a guy nicknamed Chilly was a good recruiter, but he's no longer one anymore.
However, I can't say anything about the companies now, but I'm sure others can. I do get a lot of recruiter email because I pop up on search engines with 'SAN', 'EMC', 'Veritas' and other popular search terms, but I'm never interested in them. But it's nice to give the emails to those who are looking for jobs. `8r)
Gonzo Granzeau
"Nothing the god of biomechanics wouldn't let you into heaven for.." -Roy Batty
i was her first placement, so she spent a lot of time trying to do things the right way, and even took me out to lunch after i was placed.
it's a shame that she wasn't around the next time i went looking for a job.
I don't understand why people still go to headhunters. Even if this mysterious honest recruitment firm did exist, they'd still be taking a lot of money that could be going to your salary (they have to make a profit somehow), and they'll always be bad at matching you up with a company, because if they knew what they were talking about, they'd have a real job.
Every single job I've ever had was the result of me knowing somebody who either worked for the company, or was a friend of someone in management. Any time I've ever gone on an interview that a headhunter found me, it was a complete fiasco. I'm a java programmer, and most of the time they sent me to companies looking for a javascript guy.
They also simply tended to be crappy jobs, which is why they had to pay a headhunter to find them employees. An appealing job will attract an employee with little effort. A good employee who's been in the business for a while and knows some people will usually be able to find their way to it.
Money I owe, money-iy-ay
He said that it would be "unethical" of him. Unethical? WTF are you talking about, I thought. Later, this same person approached me regarding a startup he and a partner had, well, started. Apparently, there weren't any ethical conflicts with taking his current employer's possible customers -- or was I a possible customer?
It's kind of a gray area since that company wasn't going to place me, but this guy would. The company in question is Quilogy. I think they work a lot with Microsoft tech/techies.
Take it easy? I'll take it anyway I can get it . . .
If I knew a good headhunter, I wouldn't be at home in my underwear posting to Slashdot, you insensitive clod!
I have worked with a number of headhunters, and I've had very unpleasant results across the board.
It's something of a vicious cycle in that hiring managers tend to hedge their bets by bringing in multiple headhunters, making it less profitable for the headhunters to do high-quality work for any giving manager. It just doesn't make economic sense for them to really screen candidates and find the perfect fit since neither the candidate nor the hiring manager is locked in.
At one point I tried using a headhunter on a retained basis. We paid him up front for his work on a high-level technical hire, and he put a number of candidates in front of us. He did put a lot of time into the search, and did a better job of screening candidates than any of the contingent (pay if you hire) headhunters. Unfortunately, none of the candidates that we saw fit the bill, and we ended up having paid beaucoup bucks for no results.
I do think, however, that this is the way to go. If you can find a quality headhunter that builds long-term relationships with smart, qualified people, then it's probably worth doing a retained search.
I've been a candidate on both types of search, and the retained is far better from a candidate perspective as well. The hiring manager has already committed significant resources, and has delegated meaningful responsibility to the headhunter - so you can believe 25% of what he/she says, not the usual 10%.
FWIW, I've been trying to hire a couple of Linux-savvy folks for the past month or so, and I've avoided bringing in a headhunter. I can screen resumes as well as the next guy, and probably better than most, and I'll be happy to save the 15-20% fee that they would charge me.
warning: epoll_wait is not implemented and will always fail
just hire a head hunter to find you a good head hunter
Obviously there are always people out there willing to outright scam you, but I haven't run into any that I've noticed. Mostly what you get to deal with are people who cheat you out of incompetence, not knowing or caring what you do. The worst interview is when you arrive, and you and the client realize that you had different ideas of what the position requirements were.
...
I have worked with a couple over the years and have one now that I really like. Good, honest headhunters are a lot like reliable babysitters. Extremely hard to find, but they do exist. And, once you find one, you do everything you can to preserve your relationship. (Unless it's a babysitter and your last name is Kennedy :)
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
I have, but it was deep into my career as a developer before I found one.
Most seem to be flesh pimps... put a warm body in a seat... as long as they get their check. That can not only ruin their reputation with companies out there, but can ruin a developer's career and self esteem.
I have to wonder, in retrospect, if part of the problem was me though. I now know exactly how to talk with head hunters, and think I am pretty good at getting a feel for what they're actually about. I have no problem telling them when they're wrong, and when I think they're trying to pimp me out.
I have a good working relationship with two head hunters now, and they know my skillset very well. I haven't had a problem with the flesh pimps (other than the usual cold calls) in some time.
I did, once, have one ask me how long it would take for me to learn a particular language that wasn't on my resume. I asked him how long it would take him to learn Portugese. He got the message.
Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
This is always difficult because spending a lot of time with one person means you can't spend time with others.
I know someone who does this (MRC Australia) - but the proprietor, Maria, tends to spend most of her time helping people and rushes to get other things done.
Also, she's only a small company - which often means good service - but fewer clients that can be supported.
AC
Anybody have any experiences, good or bad, with General Employment?
I've worked with a dozen or so head hunters. I've only me one I totally trusted. Good signs for a head-hunter:
1.) Works with you to establish your hourly rate, and the hourly rate he'll bill you at. (Doesn't hide rates.)
2.) No IP agreements.
3.) Reasonable non-competes
4.) How well they treat H1-B people. Do they threaten to deport them if they leave the company?
5.) Have you seen them lie? Do research with other people in the company. Ask pointed questions and see if employee answers match head-hunter answers.
6.) Attitude towards overtime.
7.) No patronizing attitude
8.) Open with what is going on with office politics
9.) Shows you the contract between head-hunter and company you'll go to.
10.) Asks where you want to go with your career
Bottom line, you've got to do your research. Google for people that have worked at the same company and ask them questions.
Make sure the headhunter's incentive structure is in line with serving your interests. Obviously, you want to avoid a company that takes a fee ( in my opinion, even a portion of a fee) on the initial hire. Fee structures where the headhunter takes (say) 50% of its fee if the hire stays (say) 6 months, and takes the remaining portion of its fee if the hire remains for a full year gets you a good chunk of the way to making sure the headhunter's incentives are in line with your own. After all, if they send you (and you hire) a screw-up, there's no way the person should last with you long enough for the headhunter to collect a dime.
I have known the same headhunter for 5 years.
I knew she was one of the decent people out there when she left a large agency she was with due to them limiting her ability to market me out to others. They told her that she was to market me to one company at a time. (Other factors played into her leaving of course, this was just the final bit she needed to make the decision). The job we were working on didn't happen due to me taking a different one, but a couple of years later she was able to place me at another company. One job in 5 years through her, and she still takes the time to make sure that all is well.
Over these 5 years I have talked to her every few weeks, and even now I goto her first when I am looking for someone to hire.
Yes, there can be decent people in the world in any job.
Thanks to the market being swamped, the head hunters have started to turn against not only the possable employee, but against the company looking for the recruit. I have seen, and been on the recieving end many times of a head hunter saying that I had a job, just to find out they gave it to some one else. Once, I even got a call from the company I was going to be working for, and they asked why *I* turned them down. Don't trust a head hunter, there is a reason they are called that. sin
Merf
Contingency recruiters, who get paid to fill a slot and will mailshot you CV everywhere to get the "we introduced person x to you first, so pay the fee please". And retainer recruiters, who are paid to find a shortlist of people for a fixed fee, even if the employer doesn't end up taking them on. If you're job hunting, the general technique is to write to all the target companies you're looking at directly, tell a few retainer recruiters you're looking, and generally to avoid contingency recruiters like the plague. Recommended book is "Rights of Passage" by John Lucht. If you ignore the promotion of his own Internet site, you'll see how different parts of the recruitment industry work, and the advice in there is very good - for high-ticket price job hunters anyway. IMHO of course...
Deal with a used car salesman, be prepared for a few "lemons." Deal with a top-selling new Mercedes car salesman, get all your needs met.
If your dealing with some schmuck out to make a quick buck that's 25 yrs. old and a fast-talker, be prepared for a few "lemons." Deal with an experienced, older person who has built there reputation for several years and has a proven track-record, and you can expect to get mostly quality candidates for the job you're looking to fill. That's not to say that he/she can be infallible however, just more discerning. Why? Job candidates like to lie all the time. It's inevitable, and no one can stop a job candidate from doing so.
And just so everyone knows, I have nothing to do with hiring/firing people, nor do I 'headhunt.' I merely have an insiders look at that industry via someone I know.
... you insensitive clod !!!!
(no, I'm not)
Life isn't like a box of chocolates. It's more like a jar of jalapenos. What you do today, might burn your ass tomorrow.
I've never had much luck with headhunters. Just about all positions I've ever been in have been found through previous cow-orkers, friends and being in the right place at the right time. Monster, Dice, etc. all failed me while I was unemployed for six or eight months a while ago. I've been steadily updating and expanding my little black book with all of my business and personal contacts so, if anything ever does happen in the future, I'll utilize acquaintances for job leads instead of headhunters.
PepperHacks - Hacking the Pepper Pad
I have used National Software (800-666-5601) and been happy with them. They are honest and will be straight with you about everything, or at least my rep sems to be.
I have also been used by Oxford International. Those crooks will charge an 87% markup on you, so if their client gets anything like what they are paying for it is because you are working way harder than your pay justifies. They are one of the reasons the biz has a bad name.
In contracting, everything is ephemeral. Get the money up front, tax-free (401k) if you can. Forget paid vacation time and pensions that take time to vest, you will probably never get the promised goodies.
The only honest headhunter would be someone who hates money.
# Erik
Yes, I know of at least one honest headhunter. I've known him for years. He found me a good job as a sysadmin at a nice company a few years ago. He worked hard to get me there, but I ended up not taking the job (for reasons to complicated to go into). But even though he had put in a lot of time setting the deal up, he was very understanding when I turned it down.
What's more, he didn't hold a grudge. Six months ago when I was looking for a change of scenary, I applied for a job online. It turned out Vince was the headhunter, now working for a different company himself. He not only remembered me by name, but recommended me highly to the client (which turned out to be the same company he works for), and I ended up getting the job.
A month ago, a friend of mine was looking to get out of a sinking ship himself. I gave him Vince's number, and in three weeks Vince not only found him a job, but found him something that fit him well. In this economy? I was floored.
So yes, they are out there. You just have to look around a little.
I had given my resume to a few techie headhunter groups (looking for a job, not an employee), and all they did was search and compare acronyms and words they don't understand.
I'd really try to prequalify them to see if they've gotten any better. It was a couple of years ago last try, but I've spoken with 2-3 of them.
+5:offtopic,but anti-American
His/her job is to know the market. If you know it, then you don't need the head-hunter.
Some places require you to go through an 'approved' vender though. Then you have to find a company that will be willing to only take a small cut if you bring them both the job and the candidate. Here we have a company that does that for a $3/hr cut.
I have had both good and bad luck with head hunters.
Some warning signs of a bad one:
1) The headhunter says things like "This is the best developer I have ever talked to." or "You'll want to hire this guy immediately" or "I have ten people perfect for the job you're offering"
2) The resumes that the headhunter gives you are fully of typos and gramatical errors. Not only doesn't the applicant care enough to fill it out, but the headhunter didn't care enough to review it.
3) Headhunter says "Even though he doesn't have the experience you said you wanted, I know you'll love him".
Good signs when talking to a headhunter.
1) FIXED RATES!!!! Most headhunters get a percentage of the salary of the person coming in. There incentive is to get you to hire the most expensive guy, whether he is qualified or not. Fixed rate headhunters just want to keep you happy so that you come back.
2) They do full pre-screening interviews with technical questions before forwarding any resumes.
3) When you reject a candidate, they try to find out why so that they don't make the same mistake twice.
Overall, I think that the right headhunter can be a great help with recruiting, but always understand that there interest is in placing candidates with you and not necessarily that the candidate fits.
Rob
that unless the tasks you need employees for are eating donuts and attending the help desk, you'd need people with heads on. So don't trust people that collect heads as trophies to get you good employees.
I posted a brief resume to monster.com, within a few days a headhunter called me up with a position in mind. A week later I was employed.
A good headhunter will find you, and a good headhunter will charge your employer, not you for his services. If he wants a check, he's just jerking you around.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
"Have any of you ever worked with any firms you felt represented your interests well?"
Well The family got me a real nice job. I'm not wild about all the hugging and kissing though.
I don't understand why people still go to headhunters. Even if this mysterious honest recruitment firm did exist, they'd still be taking a lot of money that could be going to your salary (they have to make a profit somehow), and they'll always be bad at matching you up with a company, because if they knew what they were talking about, they'd have a real job.
Certainly not my experience. I've had 2 very good experiences with headhunters, and 2 mediocre ones. It is certainly not true that "if they knew what they were talking about, they'd have a real job." I've had managers that couldn't code, and certainly the headhunters couldn't, but they DID know how to communicate. That's what they're there for, and if they know how to do that you're in good hands.
I can tell good UI from bad, but I have a real hard time coming up with good UI on my own. There are plenty of art critics who can't paint. Hell, everyone knows good music when they hear it, but relatively few can play.
For that matter, there are plenty who can play music but not compose - and vice versa...
You'll probably have better luck finding an individual [headhunter], who has integrity and an interest in a long-term relationship than a firm.
I worked with one in particular who placed me at a Fortune 500 firm. The headhunter moved through three different agencies in the few years since. Perhaps he had too much integrity, as he's moved on to another career because the tight job market made it impossible for him to meet quota and keep his integrity.
Actually I have worked with several honest headhunters in the past, both SW and HW since I am an embedded controls type. There are a lot of hacks out there, but the ones with integrity have usually been those with which friends of mine have had good experiences. I also have found that local private headhunters seem to have more on the ball and are usually pretty sharp, and usually are former engineers themselves now presently in retirement. My experiences are predominantly in the South and Midwest. I actually have had several more select ones interview me technically and personally to see if I am of the caliber for which their clients are looking. Actually, I have been placed twice in my career by good headhunters with which I still maintain contact. They also have been useful in finding potential coworkers that fit my needs.
The basic point of headhunting firms is to get folks to take jobs they wouldn't take otherwise. I've never had a job through a headhunter I could justify for any reason other than $$$.
Another problem is that the consulting firms lobbied congress so that it is pretty much mandatory that small consulting firms go through an agency(i.e. big companies just won't do corp-to-corp/1099 any more).
In general, the US is just way to loaded with various type of parasites-lawyers, accoutantants and various other types that lobby for legislation that makes their services necessary.
We had an hour-long chat about my past and experiences, and just shooting the breeze on a number of fairly interresting subjects (he had a technical rather than HR background, so he could hold a conversation.)
The result? He turned me away from the job I applied for "You're going to hate it there", dived in his file drawer and pulled out something entirely unrelated telling me that this was the job for me.
Got an interview with his client, and got the job. While they folded two years later those were the best two years of my professional life-- the pay was good, the people I worked with were great and the job was interresting.
I've dealt with other headunters before, and since, and they mostly suck. They also have HR backgrounds.
My advice? Try to find a headhunter that actually understands the postings, and the people who apply for them. Much better matches will ensue.
-- MG
His name was Alan. He was a decent guy. Alan and me got to know each other when I needed to fill some spots on a desktop support help desk at 35k a year (this being back in 1995-97 when it was hard, but possible to find such people). He sent over a boatload of fine people - I hired about 6 people off of him.
.com bubble had burst in Silicon Alley and placements were really dry.
Anyway, since he was so good, I gave him my resume and let him shop me around the next time I was looking. He landed me in 3 jobs in a row. Then, I have to admit, I fucked up. I was in the middle of a divorce, and I was being slack. The company fired me because of a performance issue (my fault - I was taking too much time up, showing up late, that kind of thing).
After that, he didn't have any time to spend on me. I suspect (this was mid-2000) that he was having performance issues of his own - the
I haven't been able to get a hold of him in a long time. I suspect he is out of the business, he doesn't work for the old agency he used to. If anyone knows of an Alan Chase in the NYC area, send me an ICQ or mail, though, he was a great guy and i'd love to work with him again. Divorce is over, things are cool again.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
On a side note, ditto for contract agencies. Seven years ago I was totally psyched to find a contractor that paid me $28/hour for jack of all trades systems administration and network architecture. Being 19 or 20 at the time I was enthralled with that hourly rate. Many years later, while talking to a company I used to contract for, I found out they were billing me out at $250/hour. Riiight...
PepperHacks - Hacking the Pepper Pad
... but Teksystems has treated me very well in the past.
Lately, though, they seem to be slipping... getting more like their slimy competitors. I hope it ain't so, 'coz they treated me VERY well when I worked for them a few years ago.
In times of universal deceit, telling the truth gets you modded -1 Troll
My manager got laid off and became a head hunter.
When there was a massive lay off at my company my manager voulenteered to be layed off and formed his own headhunting company. He has worked hard to employ as many people as possible from our company. It is because of him I can say for sure that there are people out there doing the job that care. He decided that software engineering managment was not giving him the satisfaction that headhunting could provide.
Long term relationships are the key as well. He has been working with and following up with all of us since the layoff as well.
I don't want this to turn into a commercial but this is their URL. http://princetonresource.com/. I wish him all the success he deserves.
Why would you want to use a head hunter? Most places that have jobs available (white collar and blue collar) will put an ad in the paper or on their website.
Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?
I work in the staffing industry. I don't do staffing.. I just keep the servers going, but I do see a lot of what goes on. There is definitely a variety of styles you'll find. Most headhunters try to keep strong long term relationships with their clients that way whenever the client needs someone they'll go back and ask the headhunter again. As for employees it varies. They always keep in touch with employee through the first few months to ensure that they stay. You need them to stay a full 90 days usually to get full commission. You'll find recruiters have their own styles and some will be good and some won't.. Try calling a few up and sending out your resume. You can talk to them and ask them questions about they way they do things. See if they are the type of person you want to be doing business with.. If they aren't you'll still have plenty of other recruiters to go to until you find one you like...
I once had a head hunter place me in a position at Enron as a DBA of their financial databases, even though my only prior experience was that of MS Access and a little VB. My incompetence was almost exposed a few times especially when one of my macros got out of hand and started calculating losses as profits. I just hope my new position at SCO will last a little longer :)
I respectfully disagree.
My current job was acquired through a head-hunter (a good one) and I wouldn't have gotten it any other way. The employer had an exclusive agreement to bring on a certain number of people and they all had to go through this head-hunter. A sort of package deal.
As it turns out, the costs for a head-hunter can be equivalent to what one might pay an HR department to do similar work... and when you have a small or non-existant HR department, a reputable head-hunter can be a great asset.
That all being said, I found the job because the head-hunter had posted specific positions to a job web-site and I responded to two of them because they were both buzz-word compliant with my resume. Within a week I had the job, with salary negotiated through the head-hunter. I felt that they did a good job of playing advocate for both sides.
Since then, I've had an opportunity to deal with them from the employer side and the people they sent us were always very close to what we were looking for... at least as close as one can get without being "us".
Edu. sig-line: Choose rhymes with lose. Chose rhymes with goes. Loose rhymes with goose.
Comparing? THEN use THAN.
I don't understand why people still go to headhunters. Even if this mysterious honest recruitment firm did exist, they'd still be taking a lot of money that could be going to your salary
Agreed. That's why I always cut my own hair too. Why would I pay someone to do something I can do with just a pair of scissors?
Every single job I've ever had was the result of me knowing somebody who either worked for the company, or was a friend
Being a bit more serious, the situation you describe is fine for low level, commodity labor. Try hiring your friends to be your CFO or Director of R&D and see how long your company survives.
There are plenty of small companies, like the one I ended up at, who don't have a "human resources" department, and frankly noone here has the time to interview applicants. We hire mostly through a headhunter, which is how I got here.
Once in awhile someone will know someone who'll be a good fit, but by and large the frim we use does a really good job of understanding what we're about and doesnt waste our time with dozens of resume's.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
Have any of you ever worked with any firms you felt represented your interests well?
Never.
In every experience I've had where I was sent as an applicant to a company via a recruiter, the recruiter had always doctored up my resume, and tried to push me into being dishonest about my experiences (such as making a little bit of experience with something sound more like a lot of experience with something).
I've also noticed (being on the interviewing side) that most recruiters don't know squat about tech skills - even if they are a supposed specialized "tech recruiter". It seems they simply look for the buzz-words/buzz-acronyms on a resume, and send it to you if they think there is a match.
I'd be VERY careful about selecting a recruiter from which to get applicants.
They do not recruit Software developers, the honest ones go after bigger game high level executives. The ones that do recruit software engineers have to put up with a difficult job. There are so many stupid jobs in software development that they have to fill. I feel sorry for them. While I do not condone their practices, I can understand the pressures they are under.
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
I write code for an HR group at a large company, and I can tell you why. Companies don't want to weed through the 300 resumes they get for one position. Quite honestly, they don't have the time. So they trust (at their own peril) a recruiting firm to handle the legwork for them, and narrow it down to a reasonable number.
For that, they don't mind paying a fee. It does save time and money for the company. Unfortunately, they can get screwed on that deal by a flesh-pimp-headhunter. That will only happen once, though, and most companies (at least this one) won't deal with that agency again.
Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
I've had mixed dealings with headhunters. Most don't give a crap about who you are and what you want. They are just trying to fill seats and make as much money as they possibly can.
I have met a select few who do go the extra mile. I remember one way back in 1989 who actually sat down with me and we talked for good while about what I wanted. She actually got me an interview with my dream company at the time (Pixar) but when that fell through, she got me other interviews and finally landed me at another pretty good company.
After dealing with someone who was honest, decent, and actually listened to me, I had no desire to even talk to the other 99% of headhunters. Usually, I interview them before they have a chance to interview me. If they seem skanky, I leave.
i think as a manager, one should make no less effort to research, or even interview a couple of head hunters before using them to find the right employees.
everything's the same, you need to right tool for the job, from the very beginning.
At least I've talked with a few who acted and talked as if they were honest. Unfortunately, it didn't turn out to be true. ; )
steve
Oh, you're not stuck, you're just unable to let go of the onion rings.
When I was first out of college, I used a headhunter to find my first programming job in Chicago. I can't remember his name or the company, but he was somewhere downtown on Wacker street I think. It took several months to find a job that I was a good fit for, especially since I didn't have a CS degree. He sent me on one or two interviews that weren't really good fits for me and was kind of amazed when I turned a company down because they were "too corporate." But he got the message, and a bit later he found me weveral interviews at once and I ended up with three offers to choose from.
Out here in Silicon Valley I know one good recruiter who used to work for one of my former employers on a contract basis. She found good people for us to interview, which is exactly what she was supposed to do. She also gave me some advice when I was job hunting again a few months ago. The recruiters who work for my current employer seemed good too. In both of these cases they definitely represented the employer, not the potential employees.
On the other hand I've run across some bad ones. Before I found the good one in Chicago, I encountered some agencies that were more like meat markets than technical recruiters. At one of them I showed up for an initial interview and they were also interviewing hairdressers. From the employer side, I've also encountered quite a few recruiters who will give managers lots and lots of resumes for unqualified people, without making any effort to filter them at all. ("Does the word Java appear anywhere on this resume? No? Then why did you send it to me for a Java programming job?")
Summary: There are some excellent recruiters out there, but they're hard to find. Once you find a good one, stick with them.
She has never actually placed me anywhere, but she has always helped me in every way a geek could want.
So, I think that would qualify as a 'long term' geek-headhunter relationship!
And no, I'm not giving out her email address...
I've been at the contract game for over a decade and the short answer is "No".
The best you can hope for is a relationship based on respect. I respect them if they are talented albeit sleazy salespeople and I expect them to respect me for being a talented albeit mercenary contract whore. In that sense I suppose you can say we are being honest with each other, but that's as far as it goes.
I stuck around with my company for 5 years and then moved to Oregon, so I never had to use her again. But, she was very good.
She was able to negociate my salery from the offer ($45k) to what I wanted ($65k). But the company decided to cut the signing bonuses of $5k out. (Hmm.. $20k a year extra vs a signing bonus.. duh). She went ahead and gave me a check after I was hired for a portion of her commision.
About 8 months later I had a new son. She sent a over a congrats card along with gifts for the baby.
Great employee support! She even had checked in with my company over the first few months to make sure it was going OK for them.
I believe she has her own recruiting firm in the Valley now. Kathi Lucas was her name if I recall (her card is at home).
Being a bit more serious, the situation you describe is fine for low level, commodity labor. Try hiring your friends to be your CFO or Director of R&D and see how long your company survives.
And you really think you'd have better results hiring a CFO or Director of R&D from a headhunter? Surely, you've worked with some competent people in the past that are looking for an opportunity.
Friends aren't just people you hang out with at bars. I know plenty of old clients and cowerkers to fill some pretty high level positions, if I needed to.
Money I owe, money-iy-ay
He was a moron. Idiot. Slacker.
I don't understand why he was even in the tech field in the first place. Sure, he knew how to install software, but I had to show how to browse a Windows network! He was the equivalent of an end user! Ack! He had very little knowledge, couldn't improvise, and only showed up half the time.
When we interviewed (and hired) somebody else for the position he wanted to fill, he was disappointed. Wanting to somewhat save his damaged pride, I said, "Yeah, the person we hired for the job had a Master's Degree."
To which he replied, "If I had a Master's Degree I'd just go in and ask to buy the school."
As if they roll up a million dollar bill with your Master's. As if one could simply buy a public school.
It was the stupidest thing I had ever heard, but I only said, "Yeah, the tech sector is kinda tight right now."
Qualitas edurus commercium, nullus penitus net rimor, nullus deus beneficium
They often claim to have technical backgrounds too. On one occasion, I had to spell the ".com" part of my e-mail address.
ive met quite a few headhunters and i think maybe 1 in 10 are really good guys. not a very good percentage.
"Humanize war? You might as talk about humanizing hell!" -- British Admiral Jacky Fisher
Right. That is really the essence of it. Most will screw the employer just as bad as the employee. They just want to get a warm body placed so they can go on to the next suck^H^H^H^Hclient. They don't care if you're happy in the job, if you're a good fit for the company, if the company has a future ... expect a lot of pressure to just sign up for something, so they get their pay.
It's far, far better to have your own network of contacts when you're job hunting, than to rely on some slime-trailing headhunter. Collect business cards, go to trade shows & conferences, keep in touch. It's not really hard.
the prestigious recruitment co of :
Dewey Screwem and Howe
They've always represented thier own interests very well.
So Long and Thanks for all the Fish.
Certain large companies like AT&T, Lucent, and Avaya only hire contractors through a select number of employment firms, so you're stuck with dealing with those companies.
Suggestion to those who need to use it - this came from a friend of mine who uses it to hire. The people who look for talent there frequently [say they] will check for recent postings because those who have been on the streets [longer] tend to be a bit more desperate (and it's said it affects their interviewing because they only want|need a job, not the job they want|need). The way to get around that is to make tiny updates to your posting. Append a space to a field one day, then the next day, remove it; rinse, lather, repeat. This keeps you in the running regardless of whether checking for recent entries is a UL/FOAF [or not].
When I first moved to Silicon Valley, the company that moved me out went bust within six months. I was stuck in a foreign place with few connections and needed a job -- BAD.
Luckily, the headhunters smelled the carcass of the dying company I was working for, and like vultures, started calling. I actually found a good one and got a better job WITH a 50% raise. Would not have happened without a headhunter.
I've worked with two headhunters so far... I do alot of work with the UniData and UniVerse mvRDBMs, and there are relatively few headhunters who specialize... My current headhunter I have worked with for some two and a half years, and I know she is genuinely concerned with getting me positions which provide what I need growth-wise, and the freedom to innovate... She is one of the few who really "gets it", ya know?
... Great company for PICK developers...
Anyways.. Her firm is SoftwareSearch.com
----- Serious people have few ideas. People with ideas are never serious. - Paul Valery
At a certain company I know of, they came on the ingenius idea of getting rid of all their consulting firms except for four. Now, to be considered for the list of four, the bidding companies had to meet the following stringent standards:
1. Be the lowest per hour.
2. See #1.
That's it. Inconceivably, the four companies who 'made' the bid list did not have the personnel to fill the needs of the company, and so it suffered. And now people are scrambing trying to get work done through non-existant consultants who work for lowball companies.
Moral of Story: If companies want quality people through honest headhunters, at least be honest and unstupid in return...
(The company I worked for made the mistake of being honest, i.e., that lowball rates will bring questionable results; they were punished by being banished along with about 15 consultants.)
Well, partially, I'd say 'Duh.' These people make money by placing people. That's how they put food on the table... its to be expected that they are more concerned with that than either of the two parties.
In most cases I've seen, the headhunters are conerned for themselves first, the company second (after all, the company is paying them), and the candidates last.
Generally, I've tried avoiding recruiters from agencies. At my previous job, I was hired by a recruiter who was on retainer from the company, and I worked with a recruiter while there when we were hiring more people. They seemed to actually care about the company. They also seemed to care a bit about the candidates, since most of them realized that lying to someone just to get them through the door would result in an unhappy employee who was likely to jump ship, which would make them look bad in the eyes of management.
Personally, if I were at a company and needed to hire, I'd just hire a recruiter, and put them on a bonus schedule... if the employee remains for 6 months, they get a bonus... if the employee is still there after a year, another bonus. That would make the recruiter care about the whole equation, since it is in his/her best interest.
Oh, and the only time i can actually verify that I was flat-out lied to in order to get me through the door? No recruiter was involved... it was the doing of a VP and my manager.
When I was a hiring manager I liked psinapse because, while I got very few resumes from them, every one was a good candidate for the job opening (they sent almost no crud) - Since I've been freelance I've done a job for them as well, they were easy to work with and very supportive. Small company, but nice.
closed minded is as closed minded does
I've had managers that couldn't code, and certainly the headhunters couldn't, but they DID know how to communicate.
Then why aren't they managers? The only real skill that makes somebody a good headhunter is the abilily to sell, and I don't consider that to be a useful skill. It creates its own need. If one day, everyone suddenly lost the ability to convince people to buy things, nobody would miss it.
Money I owe, money-iy-ay
I got my current (tech) job through James Clayton Consulting, who I guess is a franchise/subsidiary/sibling/whatever of MRI, and came to find out that like 60% of our IT department also got hired through them. Apparently our company has a long-term relationship with JCC and everyone seems really happy with the arrangement, so there's a vote for establishing LTRs with your HH, as well. On a personal and perhaps frivolous note, they (JCC) still send me christmas cards and birthday cards, and I get follow-up calls every year or so to make sure I'm enjoying the job. Judging from most of the other posts here it sounds like my experience was not exactly typical.
ROFL!!
In times of universal deceit, telling the truth gets you modded -1 Troll
I actually have someone I work with fairly regularly who seems genuinely interested in helping. Of the handful of people I've used for headhunters, this one definitely stands out above the crowd. (er... if anyone is looking for a Data Warehousing job in the midwest, I can put you in contact... :-)
But I'm not sure it matters... you can pretty much get headhunters to do what you want by following a few simple rules:
First, remain independant -- don't agree to use only one Headhunter and, in fact, make it clear that whoever you use has no right to submit you for a job without your permission. You can maintain control this way, which leads us to:
Second, take what you want, leave the rest alone -- make it clear what you're looking for in a job and don't accept anything else (up to the point you can afford it). Headhunters make money by getting you to agree to work, so they'd rather be a bit annoyed with you and spend twice as long finding you a job than losing you as a client completely. As long as a headhunter is willing to call you up, you have the possibility that they'll be the one to find your perfect job, so you don't want to alienate anyone, but that's tough to do since they're on commission (all the ones I've seen).
Thirdly, demand open contracts -- this is the only one that's not completely trivial to negotiate. Many headhunting companies have policies that they will tell you the percentage off the top that they're skimming. Rates vary, of course -- I've seen 10% and 50%... still, if the money's right this may not be important to you. Most companies will agree to tell you, and in some cases, you can get a better deal going with someone's competitor. Lots of the jobs on web search engines are the same job posted through various employment agencies, so you may be able to get more money for the same job from someone else. Having this rate disclosure helps prevent that, and it also gives you a bit of a bargaining chip if you turn out to be really good in the position.
Just using those three rules, I think you can convince yourself that whoever is offering you jobs is at least somewhat likely to find something you'll accept. And for the most part, even if you can't stand your headhunter, that should barely affect your job once you're signed on and getting paid. While I like that my agent calls me up or takes me out for drinks now and again, it's not worth losing much salary over.
I had one send me out to a job with 2 hours notice. I show up ten minutes early with a tie, clean slacks, a resume, and a smile only to get there and the hiring person said, "who are you and why are you here?" The headhunter forgot to schedule me an appointment. What a dolt. Needless to say, I didn't get the job.
After spending a few months haggling with a few headhunters and going on about 15 interviews at jobs that I would not have taken if they offered it, I ended up getting the hook up from a friend.
Headhunters are not worth the time or effort. Maybe if you are a textbook MCSE with a masters in computer science they could probably get you some stupid highschool-level visual basic programming job, but they aren't probably going to get you the job you want to have, much less the job you want to have in 5 years.
Why read the article when I can just make up a snap judgement?
I, for one, welcome our new head hunting, collecting and shrinking overlords!
It's one thing for a headhunter/recruiter/placement firm to get your resume, say "well we'll keep your resume on file and keep in touch" and you never hear from them again. Perhaps they've tossed it or neglected you. Perhaps they really never come across anything you'd be qualified for. Perhaps they're incompetent. In any event, some would describe this as "dishonest" (the dishonesty being that they will call you back)
I guess the other side of the coin is headhunters who lie to get people in positions they have no business being in. Since so many in IT complain about being employed or what I described in the previous paragraph, I assume this isn't usually the case.
When I went switching jobs recently I ran across a number of headhunters that were either difficult to work with or were shady. Some, I'm convinced, took the attitude that it would be easier to point people to real jobs than hold one themselves. One person even called me a few times and when I didn't pan out to his position's needs, he asked if I knew anyone else who would - like I was going to help him do his job and get someone else employed in the meantime.
But the answer to "have I personally used an honest headhunter" is yes. A company called Robert Half Technology. I had applied for a CarrerBuilder post of theirs and they had me come in and take some tests. Then they pitched me to jobs based off of that. Though it took a couple months, they would call me every week or so with progress on their search - which meant little to me at the time since I wasn't relying on them. But then one day they called to ask if I could interview the next day. The company handed me the job on the spot and I was employed via contract the next week. I'm still working the gig and going permanent next month.
Schnapple
I had great luck with Technical Connections (the Los Angeles office).
http://www.technicalconnections.com/
They acutally take the time to understand what you know and what you want. They *don't* send you on DB2 jobs because you have mysql on your resume.
After some period of time the also provide good benefits.
... Companies don't want to weed through the 300 resumes they get for one position. ...
I can understand that need, but I personally think there are better ways to satisfy it. You don't have to plaster the newspapers or job sites whenever you have an opening. It might take a lot longer to fill the position if you don't but you can always hire a contractor or temp until you find one. For any position that you wouldn't want a contractor filling, you probably wouldn't want someone coming from a headhunter, either.
Money I owe, money-iy-ay
I've run across one good headhunter... back in Buffalo, NY. Name was Kim Z I believe (dont remember the last name exactly, its polish). She worked with me through several different agencies. Each time, she managed to get me a decent placement, she sought me out whenever there was something that she thought I might like. She even had a job for me after I had moved to Texas, just in case I needed one. Damned if I know what agency she was with last, but if you're in the area, ask if she works for what ever agency you call.
Since then, I haven't managed to get a single job from those places. Absolutely worthless. Some nice people, but no jobs.
I've been on both sides of the equation: as a guy out of work and as a hiring manager who was understaffed.
The better employment agents screen applicants well. In the boom days, I got tons of shit resumes from D level candidates with little more that passing knowledge of the skills I needed because there were more jobs than available talent. I was happy to spend as much as $25K per hire just to not have to review 100s of resumes and phone screen dorks. From the recruiter, the quality of applicants was very high because the recruiter with whom I worked understood our environment and screened for personality match as well as skills match.
Now from the other side, good recruiters like I described above are often privy to opportunities that are not advertised. Especially now that there are so many unemployed B level candidates. So by not availing yourself of their services, you don't ever get infront of those better opportunities.
I've worked on all sides of this fence, including alongside a headhunter when I worked for a firm whose parent firm was a recruiter. I've personally known of 5 good recruiting firms, and 5 bad ones. Of the 5 good ones, two were very small and gave up when high tech went bust, two downsized but are still there, and one I'm not sure about, since I haven't kept up after moving half way across the USA.
I have no idea about the 5 bad ones - I never paid any attention to them again.
Come to think of it, there were also a couple of so-so firms. I didn't keep up with them, either.
I haven't seen any correlation between size or longevity and how well a recruiter does - it all comes down to connections, personality, integrity and business sense. Some have plenty of all of these while others have less or none. Those with the least in these areas tend not to last. 8^/
Shop recruiters like you would jobs or employees. And don't be afraid to try some of the new web-based ASPs like hire.com . (I'm not refering to huge bulletin boards that are worse than the shotgun approach (tactical nukes?))
[I used to work for hire.com, but left for personal reasons. I haven't checked lately, but last time I looked, they still provided lots of value.]
You're trying to tell me that you're having TROUBLE FINDING QUALIFIED SOFTWARE ENGINEERS? Surely you jest. Why not just put an ad on Monster.com and look through a few of the thousands of resumes you'll get. If you're too lazy for that, I can forward you twenty or thirty names. Damn, you can't throw a dead cat in Sillicon Valley without hitting an unemployed software engineer with excellent credentials.
While we're at it, I'm having trouble finding a starbucks in the San Francisco Bay Area. Can Slashdot help? Please send me the addresses of the one closest to me. I'd also like a free Frappucino.
In the late '80s I started working with a headhunter who was a retired developer. He understood what I wanted to do and he was able to track jobs that I would be interested in and qualified for. He worked with me for a couple of years and finally found a job I really liked.
That company went under, and when I tried to contact him again the phone number didn't work and mail was returned as undeliverable.
So, I talked to several headhunters and found one who at least acted honest. He also had a background as a developer and helped me find a job I really liked.
That company went under. So, I tried to contact that headhunter. No such luck. I could not find the guy again.
That was in about '93. I haven't encountered an honest headhunter since then. I'm not sure the last 3 I talked to are even human.
Stonewolf
Oh yeah, real good. With one open position which points to a .doc file which 404's.
At the end of our conversation in which I mentionned I was a programmer and was looking for work, he said, well consider this your interview: you passed.
After that he got me a really cush job, but not after allowing me to turn down 3-4 crummy ones.
He even coached me on interview presentation, something which as a young person and a developer combined, I lacked even though my skills were good.
It's been roughly 4 years since, and I still talk with the guy, we go out for coffee sometimes etc. He's helped me out during times of depression/annoyement with the job market... overall career-saver for sure.
So it does exist, you just have to be lucky I guess.
On a side note, the company that ended up hiring me had and continues to have very close ties with the hiring firm. It's basically an extention of their PR department for hiring. No hiring done from outside that loop.
During the rise of the bubble, that changed, along with so much else. The rise of the bubble saw the rise of
-- a great many unethical contractors
-- a great many unethical headhunter/recruiters
-- a drop in the ethics of companies hiring
-- a drop in the ethics of employees when courting employers
-- a drop in engineering standards
...and of course, lots and lots of money funding people who should never have received a dime. Which is what fueled all of the above.
I have not used headhunters the last few years. I would not be surprised if, during the bubble, the ethical ones were driven out of business, given the conditions then. Of course, with the collapse, the sky fell on the good the bad and the ugly alike. I know many highly-ethical, high-quality engineers who are abandoning the profession. I would expect the same must also occur among headhunter/recruiters. This too shall pass. Companies will again climb the learning curve to achieve better engineering, and better relationships. This will occur because we have left that abnormal period where hype was more successful than actual performance.
I use to be in mid management at a software house, I had hire/fire over a group of programmers I used one headhunter for a few hires then ended up just calling her. She did a great job, never over selling a canidate, and giving 90 to 180 work hire contracts for entry level programmers. One days she asked me if I was happy, I told her no that the job stank. She placed me in a great job that paid well and had no overtime. I think it is all about working with you recuriter. If you think they are anygood, let them know that they are the only source you are using, or atleast the primary source.
I wouldn't be surprised to find that some of these firms have a significant business on the side stealing identities. It is very lucrative, penalties are non-existent and there is almost no prosecution, so it's a natural niche for organized crime.
How could you prevent this? You can't. Just for the identity theft reasons alone it is probably best to avoid these firms.
Of course every potential employers wants you to provide the same information!8-((
I couldn't care if they were honest or not, jsut as long as they got me a job. That, and kept buying me dinners & lunches. They'd call me, and I'd say, "Sure, let's talk. Over lunch.", then I'd have them meet me at a very nice place for steaks and/or sushi. Why would I care if they were honest? They got me the jobs, and as long as I got paid, I didn't care if I ever saw them again (but I usually did call them up for dinner/lunch every few months).
I've had good results working with one particular headhunter, who found me my current job and negotiated a good starting deal for me, but I haven't talked to him or anyone else from his company for at least two years (I've been employed here 3+ years). So I'm not sure I'd trust him or the agency to represent me another time, just because of the lack of familiarity. Although I hadn't met him before my previous job search, and he got me my kick-ass job. I suppose I'd give him a call, just to let him know I was available again. Before this job, a headhunter found me my previous job, but it turned out that he and my former boss were old buddies. Since I conducted my last job search on the sly, I couldn't trust that recruiter not to tell my boss what I was doing. These are the kinds of risks inherent in dealing with headhunters when you're looking for work.
Lousy minor setbacks! This world sucks! -- Homer Simpson
I've worked with three companies since about '96 -- both as employer and employee, and found them to be extremely diligent. Most recently I landed an extremely good full time position at an excellent salary doing work on an interesting project. The recruiter who placed me still checks in occasionally with me and others she's placed at this company.
I am certain their are incompetent, and sometimes even deceitful recruiters out there, just as there are bad people in any field, luckily I haven't been hooked by one.
In the boom times of the late nineties, recruiters were everyone's buddies, often landing job-switchers with plum assignments at higher salaries. In the bust, even the good ones have got a bad rap - not returning emails and calls, failing to respond to resumes and correspondence, etc.
But look, IT recruiting is affected as much by the current economic cycle as developers, sysadmins, projects managers, and the rest.
At least one of the good ones I've worked with has switched careers, as business dried up. Others still have to sift through hundreds of resumes, emails, calls, and match those to a dwindling number of opportunities. It's only marginally easier to get a recruiters attention than a prospective employers these days, so how about this:
Practice selling yourself like the valuable resource you are. Here are some things that worked for me:
One more thing: Have trouble in social situations, expressing yourself to non-tech people, public-speaking? No matter, so do a lot of people, you're not alone. You can either change or expect that IT people with those skills may beat you out of opportunities. Take a public-speaking or debate course at a community college and practice. If you find yourself calling end-users 'lusers', think GUIs are for wimps, or get impatient with your grandma 'cause she can't ssh into your linux box, you need to pay close attention to what I've just said.
None of this will gurantee you'll always find honest, helpful recruiters, but at least you'll get their attention, if they're out there.
"That naive cube! How long must I suffer this!" --Sheldon J. Plankton
A contract organization is looking to solve your short-term needs with highly qualified individuals, and is hoping for repeat business. A headhunter wants to fill shoes, and is looking for volume business. A contract organization can act as a headhunter, but I'd only use them as such after giving them a 'trial' period.
One thing to look out for, however- don't use a contractor if they might be able to steal YOUR clients. It's not worth the risk, and the temptation might be too much if your business ( or the client's projects ) are small enough to be stolen.
There are two types of decent headhunter. One is a lone individual, who has a few friends from previous businesses who they know well and can count on. They are rare, since once everyone is placed, the business is over.
The other is a smallish organization who caters to a niche market, specializes, and even occasionally holds training seminars for the people they employ. Companies like this have 401(k) plans an other stuff you might be surprised to hear a contract work businees offer. Also rare.
On the other hand, if you had a really great work environment and paid well, you wouldn't have a hard time attracting good talent, would you ?!? Set those things right, and you won't _need_ a pimp... er, headhunter.
...the abilily to sell, and I don't consider that to be a useful skill. It creates its own need. If one day, everyone suddenly lost the ability to convince people to buy things, nobody would miss it.
Try telling that to whoever started the company that currently pays you, if any.
Yeah, I know, from a theoretical standpoint salesmanship is useless. But in this world it is neccessary. Someone has to convince people to buy the stuff that the producers produce so the producers can get paid. Your competition sure is.
Recruiter calls, grills me for a couple of minutes about what I know, what my background is, etc. Asks "Do you have Java?" (sure, in the cabinet over the sink. It's Starbucks Holiday Blend...) I tell her that while I'd worked with Java for centuries in college, I have very little real-world experience. Stupid? Yes. Honest? You betcha. I'm not interested in doing Java dev anyway at this point, and definitely not enough to artificially inflate my credentials. I get a phone interview (read: screening) with the employer a bit later, and when they ask me about my Java skills, I give the same answer I gave to the headhunter. In a language that can only be called English by a very generous five-year-old, the interviewer mumbles something about needing 5+ years of experience as a senior-level programmer on J2EE projects and hangs up on me.
Mouth-breathers, the lot of 'em.Another time, I get a call from a very excitable young lady who is particularly interested in all of my database experience. "Have you done any database development with X, Y, or Z?", she asks. I respond with examples of projects I've worked on in teams or on my own, things I've had to build, modify, and destroy using my amazing superhero powers, and the fact that I once experimented with DB2 in college. Between my brief explanation of things that I've worked on and a quick read through my resume, I assume that she can see that I've got experience with X, Y, Z, and A-F as well. She says "Yes, but have you done any development??"...then talks to the client, who doesn't even want to do a pre-screening phone thingy with me because they need someone who's got database development experience.
"Linux doesn't exist. Everyone knows Linux is an unlicensed version of Unix"- Kieren O'Shaughnessy
It might take a lot longer to fill the position if you don't...
There are often times (especially here, we're a chemical manufacturing company) when you don't have the luxury of waiting to find that fit on your own. It's just the nature of the business.
You're right, though, about the contractor temporarily filling the position. Most companies I've dealt with in the last few years do a contract-to-hire position. It gives them a chance to see if you're going to fit the position, AND it gives you a chance to see if you want it.
Even with that temporary contractor method, you'd still need to deal with the headhunters though. They've really wedged themselves into the IT world, at least in my experience.
Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
This book is filled with great tips and advice on finding the "right" job. Moreover, apart from specific suggestions, its approach will get you thinking outside the box, so to speak, and you'll come up with your own ideas.
I've had some great ideas, over the years. Some have proven successful, and others had led to spectacular failure. But I've never regretted being creative in search of a good job, because it's always landed me someplace worth being.
Keep your resume and correspondence brief and sharp. You're almost always in competition for a prospective employer's attention, so you have to stand out from the pack. A four-page resume with solid blocks of text is a bad idea. Plan your resume visually, just like an advertisement -- because that's exactly what it is.
Do whatever you can to bypass the wall of "human resources," and get to the people who are empowered to recognize skill and talent. The primary purpose of an HR department is not to hire, but rather to screen. The first thing an HR employee looks for, when picking up someone's resume, is a reason why this person can't be right for the job.
Remind yourself of some basic marketing tips and techniques. I recommend all three of Harry Beckwith's books, starting with Selling the Invisible. Everything, from your cover letter to your interview, is about selling yourself. Mention your skills, but focus on yourself. At the end of the day, in most cases, an employer isn't hiring a resume or a set of skills: He's hiring a person. You. The first three seconds of the interview are the most important, so smile and offer a firm handshake. Dress just a little bit better than is appropriate for the job; don't wear jeans, and don't wear a tux. Carry a "Thank You" card with you to the interview, and drop it into a mailbox as you leave.
Instead of trying to prove that you're the best choice, convince the employer that you're a good choice.
My two cents.
cribPlease don't read my journal
I've worked with two headhunters who I'd be happy to work with again, and a third who I might (though I didn't work with that one enough to be certain). The first two were both at Hall Kinion.
Only good experience I had was one who happened to also be former co-worker; although she might be technically called a recruiter.
She was previously head of the training dept of the Computer firm I was working for.
She later became a recuiter for a large multi-national IT consultation company, when she left she "recruited" several of her subordinates.
I worked part time as a consultant for them, and she was always careful to match my skills to the job.
Later when she moved up in the ranks she tried to aggrssively recruit me from my stable and good paying civic job, promising free certification, exotic travel, and signifigent pay raise (all true, my buddy had the same job.)
However, when they lost their largest account six months later, I was happy at my timidity. She, my buddy, and 300 other employees were "temporarily" laid-off. 18 months later... it's still temporary... (Certifications or no, I still have my job.)
*A)bort, R)etry, I)nfluence with large hammer.*
I once asked a head hunter if an interview he scheduled for me would be preceeded by a urine test. I told him I wanted to know so I could drink a bottle of water to prepare myself. (A few weeks earlier, I had to wait in a company's on-site health center for an hour "processing" water for a urine test, before they'd even let me interview). He told me it was a delicate topic, but he'd try to find out.
A few hours later, he called back and said he asked around his office and found out there are chemicals you can put in your sample cup to hide drug traces.
So not only did he assume I was a druggie and a liar (even though I told him the true reason I asked), but thinking that, he decided to not only not tell the client but help me decieve the client. When I got the job, I told the story to my boss and the HR rep. They never used that agency again.
Head hunters are like car salesmen (or worse...they're like the dealership finance manager). They get big margins, rarely get repeat customers, have a short time to close the deal (so they use high pressure tactics), and have to make regular sales to keep their jobs.
Head hunters might actually be worse, since they have to con both parties of the sale, a car salesman doesn't deal with the manufacturer.
I don't think he was saying his friends hired him or vice versa. He was saying that he got the jobs as a result of knowing people who worked for the companies. Your analogy of hiring friends to executive positions does not refute the intended meaning of the original post. Plenty of skilled people find appropriate positions by getting an email from a friend or a former co-worker asking them if they're interested in a new opening...etc. Also, if you, yourself, are a CFO or Director of R&D, you might very well have former co-workers that are at similar levels of skill and experience as those strangers who are also being considered for the positions.
"A man talking sense to himself is no madder than a man talking nonsense not to himself."
Then why aren't they managers?
Maybe they enjoy networking more? Maybe they enjoy short-term projects more? Maybe they are better at juggling more balls more often than managers? Maybe for the money?
The only real skill that makes somebody a good headhunter is the abilily to sell, and I don't consider that to be a useful skill.
Wow; you HAVE had bad experiences.
My headhunters never had to sell me. They would supply my (and perhaps others) resume', and [maybe] some comments. They would supply me with some tips about the company. Then it's MY job to sell. It's their job to find the right employee/employer match - which can be hard to do. It is certainly not easy to do really well.
I've only gone on 2 interviews from 'hunters where I didn't take the job. In one case I got a better offer, and in the other the company frightened me (though they're still around, kinda, 5 years later).
> Someone has to convince people to buy the stuff that the producers produce so the producers can get paid
ooooh, shiney!
- What they give you. The proof of a good headhunter is if they can give you introductions directly to the hiring managers for jobs you want. You are leveraging their contacts and thats it. They're not your friends or your family, so only trust them as far as their introductions. Fire ones that guilt-trip you and only be loyal to the ones that perform.
-
What they don't give you - sound career advice. Headhunters can't give you good career advice. How could they?. .
.they aren't in the same field as you. Furthermore, their advice often incents you to switch jobs often. . . which helps them line their pockets and hurts your career. They can give good resume-design advice. . . that's about all the advice they CAN give you and you should probably take it -- short of lying (at least doctor-up a resume format that they like for their sales-job -- keep your original for other purposes if you feel so compelled).
- When should you [not] use them? Use them when you don't have personal contacts that can help you get in the door. At that point they are worth the money. Avoid using them to get you into a company that you already have an "in" with. They can screw up your salary negotiation and collect a fee if they've already submitted your resume where you could have been hired directly. Be up-front about having them avoid those companies you have an "in" with.
-
Never sign an exclusive. This is good life advice and extends outside of headhunting. You should always be in contact with a few headhunters and then force them to compete. (although let them know which companies you are already submitted to so you don't get submitted more than once.)
-
They should work all the time. Happily employed? Hoping for that big bonus? How do you know what is a good bonus and what isn't? Headhunters tell you by coming up with new job opportunities even when you aren't looking. (although they shouldn't show your resume unless they ask you first) Knowing what the market will bear is good for you career. What if you are unhappy?. . . well it sure doesn't hurt to have people beating the street for you ahead of time.
- Don't work with agents that don't respect your privacy. Good headhunters don't submit your resume without asking you first. If one submits your paper without asking you, then fire them immediately.
- Don't work with fools. Keep getting submitted for Javascript jobs when you wanted Java jobs? Stop using that headhunter. Not everyone is that inept, and it isn't worth your time to spend time on educating people who should care more about their jobs.
Good luck. . . just remember - headhunters are your suppliers (they are "contact" suppliers). They aren't your friends, and they aren't your supporters - they work for you and they only care about getting money for placing you. Treat them that way and push them to work hard and do a good job.Today he has no means, he's alone and anonymous. But written in his cells he has got the marks of the genius. I'm looking for this man to sell him to other men. To sell him to other men at ten times the price at least. I'm looking for this man who knows the rules of the game. Who's able to forget them to realize my aim. I'm looking for this man to make us rich and famous.
One - You lock the target
Two - You bait the line
Three- You slowly spread the net
And four - You catch the man
I have been hunted and used hunters both. Actually I had good results on both sides of the fence. My only issue with this is that they will contact you every year or so (as a huntee) which (as a hunter) destabilizes the workplace. Moving every year is just not good unless (huntee) has become more proficient and needs challenges. As the (hunter) though, I would appreciate that the (huntee) tells me so I can make a counter offer. This rarely happens. They usually zoom. Best Jeff
Were you under the impression that you got the full contract rate when you sign up? The recruiter is paid out of the contract profit percentage. You just need to know your market and the play a bit of hardball when they start trying to con you into letting them take too big a slice.
Truth is, only a very few companies have treated me shabbily. I trust my instincts, so if the rep feels slimy, I just don't pursue the positions they claim to have.
The resume always goes out with a note denying agencies permission to broadcast it. Any agency that's wants the right to broadcast has proven to be shady at best -- a reputable agency knows you need to avoid conflicts where you've been submitted by more than one agency to the same client. If they're not willing to trust you enough to tell you where they're submitting you, why in the world would you think you can trust them?
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
plenty of people don't think programming is a useful skill. i certainly don't, but i like not being homeless and hungry, so if somebody wants to pay me for it, than AWESOME
I've found that Winter Wyman & Company has a very friendly staff who tries to look out for your best interests. I've had very positive experiences with them.
[figz@figz figz]$ kill -9 `ps -ef | awk '$1=="figz" { print $2 }'`
This has to be one of the worst postings.
Sure it would... So why do I have an image of Tom Cruise screaming "Show me the money!" down a phone in my head?
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
... who called me, apparently without checking what my company name was. When he found out, he said, "Oh, I can't take you, then. We've placed people there."
In other words, he wasn't going to raid a place that he had also placed people into. Ethics? Yeah, he seemed to have some.
Just because of that conversation, I have kept his name (for years now), because if I ever need a headhunter, he's at the top of my list...
With the economy the way it is, I can't help but wonder about this post. If Cliff has used a job board to post his requirements, he's: 1) way too picky about requirements - he could probably find someone close and train them in the time he's spending looking for mr/ms. perfect. 2) Has a position somewhere no one wants to work, or 3) selecting out (unintentionally) the good candidates. What drives you to want to use a recruiter? Singed, unemployed geek with 15 years experience.
I'm a lawyer. I represented a number of IT individuals in a case against their employer (a very big bank) for age discrimination.
Several headhunters had recruited my clients. The bank wanted people who could deal with "black box" COBOL 77 applications - in other words the bank had acquired a number of smaller banks with legacy COBOL systems in place.
The bank had a year to bring their acquisitions on-line with Fed reporting services. They told the headhunters that the people they were recruiting were to become VP's or higher (because programmers who know COBOL 77 are already senior programmers or senior system's analysts and not ready to leave the banks they were working with - especially if they found out that the bank only needed them for a single project!).
The year passed, the folks recruited away from their old jobs (some with 20+ years at their former employer) were never given an evaluation, never given a VP position and were, as a group, fired with a nice release that paid them an extra 2 weeks pay if they promised not to sue.
The top headhunter in the group that recruited 20+ IT professionals was there with an affidavit on the federal complaint and went on to testify that his firm had been mislead by the bank.
This firm, and the top guy, walked the walk and told the truth in deposition and would have testified on the stand but for the (substantial) settlement on the Saturday before trial.
His own words, "If my reputation is lost I will never be able to work this town again." I can't say more, but that the city was the greater Kansas City (MO/KS) area and a national association bank was the defendant.
His firm never had business from the NA bank. But I have great respect for his willingness to put his company on the line for one ugly job.
I've had a couple good experiences with recruiters, though it seems to usually have more to do with the individual than their company. I think it has to do with people who look at business relationships as being long term as opposed to being purely a single transaction.
One in particular has maintained a relationship with me even though he has worked for four different agencies since I've known him for the last few years. I hear from him every six months to a year to just catch up with me. When I have told him I am looking, he will usually run two or three things by me - all of which are extremely well suited for what I am telling him I am interested in. He placed me at one company that was an excellent match, and he doesn't seem to ever get upset when I choose to go places other than the places he's lining me up for.
Most other recruiters I have spoken with just try to match buzzwords on your resume with buzzwords on job postings. But there are a few good ones out there!
I got laid off last year in December.
The first thing I did was polish up the resume. and start sending it around.
I decided that the shotgun approach was best, so I posted it to monster, and then contacted all my friends looking for good recruiters.
I decided to pull no punches. And I got confronted with alot of people who would rather place me than apy attention to what my qulaifications were, and how right I was for the job.
Ultimately, none of them got me a job, it took an old friend to do that, but they did get me some good interviews.
Plus, I learned a good lesson - it's not on them to be selective - that part is all you. So if they hit you with a position you dont like, just ignore it.
It is a Market, you know...
It took me three months to find a job, by the way, alot longer than I wanted, but still seemed like record time WRT others that had gotten the same deal.
You must have read that memo from Jerry Maguire. Best to burn it now, lest you be thrown in his downward spiral.
Seems to me that establishing a long-term relationship with fewer as opposed to screwing people over in volume would make good business sense to garner repeat business.
That makes no sense at all; the opposite should be true. You want stable employment, whereas the headhunter would want you skipping from job to job. Right?
Is your own employees. Promise them a finders fee of $1000-$5000 if they refer a new employee that will last for at least 6 months.
They will try to pick good ones from their social engineering circles, both to be sure to get the money, and keep their job, but probably also because they don't want to see their friends kicked out after 3 months because they can't manage the job.
Here in Denmark, all recruiting companies I have used (as a potential employee) has been very professional. One of them was recruting for a job I had also applied for directly, which I figured out from the job description. Yet he was very positive, and offered to present me for some customers who did not have any open position at the time, but who were always looking for qualified people.
This also says something about his relationship with the customers, and that some companies can see the benefit of hiring good people today, rather than not being able to find them tomorrow.
Oh yeah, forgot to mention I am in Denmark, Europe.
There's probably an equal number that I will not talk to again under any circumstances, either as a hiring manager or as a candidate.
What makes a good recruiter/head-hunter?
Well, for me it has been the ones who have taken the time to get to know me, my strengths and weaknesses, likes and dislikes over and above what is posted on the resume. They tend to find the companies where I would be a good match, and steer me away from the ones where I would be driven crazy (well OK, crazier). Equally, when talking to me as a hiring manager, they take the time to understand the work environment and ethics of the company, rather than just a list of skills and a base salary.
My opinion is that, even when the job market is weak (like now), a recruiter can get you into places that are not advertized. And yes, we all have friends (or at least an informal circle of pimps) who might be able to find jobs at their company but there's more out there than that.
Things to steer clear of:
ME: "Hey, I want to work at a small, informal company"
THEM: "Great. I've sent your resume to Raytheon Missile Systems -- you have an interview Tuesday"
Or, on the hiring side, recruiters who will send you every resume with the token "C++" in it somewhere when you're looking for someone with specific experience.
She was told that a company in Boston had seen her resume and they were way anxious to meet her; put on the good clothes and go expecting to spend all day talking to the Software team. She heads off into town to find that the company had expressed no interest, but had agreed to her coming down for an informational interview with the HR-droid to see if there might be some point in keeping her resume on file.
Recruiters are especially useful to a hiring manager when you need someone with specific skills. If I put a request onto Monster or similar board, I will get inundated with resumes from people who can barely spell EJB, let alone who know how to write one.
Anyway, that's just my thinking. There are good recruiters out there, and they are actually quite common. During the Internet Bubble (anyone remember that?) everyone and his dog was getting into the recuiting business (shit, someone once offered me a job as a recuiter, and those who know me understand how ridiculous that idea is), but I think that things are more stable now.
Cthulhu Barata Nikto
I was offered a job for 80-90k, went in for the interview, they liked me, got a call from the headhunter the instant I got home, said they would pay me 50k. I asked why and he told me while I wasn't experienced enough. I laugh.
Days pass.
I get the final call from him where I ask him where the business is located. He refuses to answer. I ask him in what city is his business registered. He refuses to answer. I say, ok thanks, bye.
Headhunters are smacktards. But at least I found out his address via the fine folks at the California Business Portal. I plan on shaving his cat anyday now.
Ah, but remember, there's only a one letter difference between networking and not working
I think I'll stop here.
Is that they do not work for you. They work for themselves and they want to place bodies no matter what. Another thing is that they know that there is little chance that they will get repeat business from you but there is a good chance that they will get repeat business from the employer, therefore they are more interested in pleasing the employer than pleasing you. Third, they make a big stinking commision for placing you. Don't be shy to ask them for some of it. They will pay you a signing bonus if they have to.
The difference between Canada and the USA is that in Canada healthcare is a right and gun ownership is a privilege.
The folks I worked with there were always honest with me. Of course, they went out of business in the .bomb
The guy I talked to understood it was in his
own best interests to be honest with everyone.
-- Programming with boost is like building a house with lego. It's a cool but I wouldn't want to live in it
Yes, that's absolutely true. If I didn't have the salesman that finds me work, I'd be out of a job, because our competitors would be out of work. My point is that the only reason I need a salesman, is because my competitors have one.
If none of us had one, clients would simply pick the best company for themselves, much like I'd pick the best digital camera when I'm shopping for one, rather than buy whatever I see advertised.
Money I owe, money-iy-ay
Headhunters are the lowest form of life known.. brokering humans for a profit.
Where can these mythical creatures be found? I have two University Grads (I'm in Canada so that is supposed to mean something) that have degrees in Computer Science and Information Technology that can't manage to write a lick of Java. It seems to be that the Information Technology degrees involve NO core programming concepts as the concept of polymorphism escapes my young apprentice. One came from a headhunter that I will never use again; it appears that they interview the applicants for all of 5 minutes before sending them off to me. I've since discovered that the only thing they seem to teach the ITech students is how to bull$hit about what you think you might know. -Pissed Off
a.k.a. TechieGold.com, a.k.a. Atlantis Partners, a.k.a. Boylston Group, a.k.a. MacArthur Associates, a.k.a. Remington International...
I once repsonded to this job posting and the recruiter wanted me to come in to their San Jose office and talk to them. They also wanted references. Sure, what the hell. I was told to make sure my resume was on their techie gold website. I came in, went through some dorky formulaic interview, and was sent on my way with promises that they'd be in touch. I'd been laid off recently, so I felt like I had accomplished something. This same office then used my "references" as contacts (I know, I was naive) and tried to pitch people to them and otherwise hit them up. They later screwed up with one of my references by claiming they were an authorized vendor for his company when there weren't - they had pitched a good guy, but my friend couldn't hire him.
Cut to a month later, and I am asked to come up to a recruiter in San Francisco. Before I get there they tell me about Techie Gold, and I tell them I'm already in there. When I get there the first thing I notice is that their computers are identical - the same iMacs appearing to run the same software as the place in San Jose. They run me through the SAME exact interview process (write some acronym on the resume and proceed to ask questions) and then I have to ask what their relationship to this other firm is. They say that they're both "Techie Gold Partners", whatever that means. I explain how their offices are laid out EXACTLY the same and the interview is EXACTLY the same. She repeats that they are "Techie Gold Partners". At least this time I didn't give them "references".
So I get home and do some digging around and realize that this company, Stride and Associates, is either selling headhunter franchies or operating these "companies" in the attempt to look diverse. Either way they aren't very honest about it, and aren't very good. If you talk to a company using one of those four names or who wants you to go to TechieGold to fill out your resume don't bother. They probably are just looking for "contacts" and don't really have the job anyway.
"Where quality is like a dead stinking rat - you just can't miss it."
I've been jobhunting for some while and the best (?!) lead I've had recently was from some body shop (ahem, consulting firm) who wanted me to go out on Novell-related emergency calls - even though I repeatedly explained that my Netware experience stopped around 1996 and I don't remember much if anything. They offered me $75/hr, while admitting they charge clients $250/hr, and they want a piss-test, 24/7 availability via cellphone, and a non-compete agreement... I nearly hung up on the guy. (Email me if you want his number - heh)
Here in the L.A. area I see a lot of webmaster jobs going for $8/hr - this sort of market will tend to bring the unethical scum back into IT from their former jobs in spamming, black-market organ smuggling, and politics.
Perfectly Normal Industries
I can say that out of all the pimps I have dealt with(and there have been many) a company here in new york, Execu-Search, treated me pretty well, didn't take to much of a cut on my contract, and once I was with them for about 6-12 months, gave me health insurance and vacation time(well, the health insurance was more like subsidizing, but it was nice). The only down side is that they seem to be moving away from IT staffing and more into traditional Professional stuff(management and the like). Which is also why I am not currently working with them. Unfortunately, they are rare, most have left me with a very sleazy impression and definite regrets in dealing with them.
dimes
So is this subliminal advertising or what?
I've had a very positive experience with 1 headhunter. She's never given me any kind of runaround and done her best to place me.
Her name is Connie Dorigan (Dorigan & Assoc.) and her contact info is:
(888)368-7028
condor1@dorigan.com
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball
I've used headhunters, but I never ever thought I would work for a headhunter company. I am now in my third year of developing and managing the systems for one.
I agree that most recruiters are slimy and do nothing more than submit your resume to human resources, which is what you can do yourself. The added value comes with the relationship the recruiter has with the actual hiring manager
or group. Ask them who the manager is to see if they have the necessary relationship.
Our employees get paid a salary, so they don't need to place someone to pay their rent every month.
We also will not send a candidates resume anywhere without checking with them first. You'll be hard pressed to find a company out there with that policy, but there are a few. If you find one, keep their info for future reference.
I'm the systems guy, not a recruiter and never ever want to be one.
Exactly.
I know a good recruiter in SF who placed the same guy 3 times during the dotcom boom, then this guy launched his own startup and used her to hire 2 people. She invests in the long-term.
Obviously, she understands the value in long term, but she's pretty rare. Sometimes she asks me technical questions when she's doing research on requirements. All recruiters are not clueless.
Also, a lot of people are forgetting that recruiters can add value in other ways, even in this economy. Any job offering nowadays get a load of resumes. Who's going to shuffle through all those? If the hiring manager uses a headhunter, then the resumes get filtered.
Some companies can afford to use recruiters as temporary HR personnel.
--t
http://www.hacknot.info/servlet/HS?cmd=sen&eid =1
Really depressingly, some companies only work through headhunters. When they advertise the job they drown in resumes. So instead they get a headhunter to post the job (absent company details). Feh.
Search 2010 Gen Con events
I received a nine month (six+three) contract through a head hunter. My experience was actually quite good. At the time, I was not aware of the reputation of headhunters.
/.) I told management there was nothing for me to do, but they asked that I stay, "In case anything happens to the servers"
It was one of my first significant jobs in my career as a developer. I had little experience, and no more education than a high school diploma. I did profess to be good with computers. (And I am!)
Both the headhunters and the company I was to be placed at liked me; I was hired.
The company I was working for was a small dot-*cough* Of course, this was before the bubble burst. I was actually told by the headhunters, "We don't normally deal with clients this small, but we know these guys, and we think they're going somewhere"
I was being paid CAD$25/hr, eventually I got a raise to $29. Not too bad for me, at the time. The headhunter's cut off that was $13/hr. When I found this out, I was a little offended. Still, I was making okay cash, and after a year the company was allowed to hire me without the need to buy my contract.
The, predictably, the company went south. I spent the last couple months warming a chair (and reading
(Did I mention I was hired as a developer -- but this was after the sys admins had quit. Servers weren't under any real load, and everything was pretty automated.)
After two months of this, I was contacted by an old employer and offered a position. I took it and worked both jobs part time.
Not two weeks after taking the new job, the headhunters contacted me. I was asked not to go back, because there were some problems regarding payment. This didn't really prove to be a problem; I transitioned nicely into full time at the other job.
I found out later that the company had burned the headhunters for about $30,000. (There was a second contractor, as well.) Apparently, the company was promising for months to get their bills paid. Of course, this never happened.
Looking back, I am very glad the headhunters were there. I was paid by them, every two weeks, right into my account. I know other people who worked there and have long given up on receiving any money they were owed.
A few weeks after I stopped going there, the office manager called me, to ask if I would work under the table. I laughed at her.
I still talk to the guys at the headhunter's once in a while. Even went to a couple christmas parties after my work with them was done.
I'd love to be able to excel in one job after another, but I have a neurological disorder that requires me to take a couple of medications, one of which isn't available as a generic brand yet.
Is it possible to go from job to job with uninterrupted insurance benefits?
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At my current company, which is small to medium sized, we hire our techincal folks almost exclusively through a recruiter who we have a relationship with (after the typical rounds of asking the current employees if they know anyone who would be a good fit). This is partly because everytime we post an ad, we get flooded with literally thousands of resumes from people who are completely unqualified. It simply isn't worth our time to sort through them all and widdle them down to a few seemingly decent ones only to call the candidates and find out that they've completely lied about their skillsets. It's worth letting someone else deal with that!
It wouldn't surprise me overly much if many smaller companies who don't have a dedicated staff of resume sorters do something similar.
62% for me 32% for you..
Don't discuss Money with the "client"
Don't "fall in love" with the client
I'll tell you when and where your next job is.
Contractor and client get screwed, but only the Pimp profits.
Don't call me, I'll call You, Bitch!
Yes, and I can't say enough good things. Pete Kennedy of Beta Tech, Inc in MD (works the DC Metro area). Got me my first real job out of college (sysad, stayed there about 6 years), and worked with him again 4-5 years later for another position. Very up front, very professional, was astounding at finding positions that were a good match for me (even down to things like flexible work hours, casual dress code, etc.)
I agree that networking is important, but if you're not actually working, how can you effectively network?
Sure, you could join professional associations, but those cost money, and if you're not working... well, there ya go.
First my disclaimer. I am not affiliated with Teksystems other than as a previous satisfied consultant. I am not working for them now. I have 9 years of consulting experience which has been a mixed bag.
TekSystems is a first class outfit. I had some dealings with them in the Detroit area and everyone I had contact with there was professional, honest, and hard working.
When I moved to Denver, I found their branch out here to be just as good. They placed me and they showed the same interest and enthusiasm in me after I was placed as before. After I was hired on full time they continued to followup occasionally.
Laid off now, they are the recruiters that I went to first. All in all, my best recruiter experience ever.
And now for a shameless plug: My resume If you are looking for a Linux/UNIX, web/sys admin, PHP or Perl developer, hit me up.
Diane Radunz of Resources Connection
This is not a plug, she is by far the best person I have ever dealt with.
Speaking at Defcon 12 - Credit Card Networks Revisted: Pen
Of course, many (perhaps most) tech writers, managers, and head hunters are technologically clueless. I hope you're not going to argue that this is no big thing. Maybe head hunters are superfluous, but you're naive if you think that we can dispense with tech writers or managers. Though many developers seem to think you can...
I talked to a head hunter a few days ago for a contract job. (You can't get contract work without dealing with recruiters, unless you have a lot of personal contacts.) At first I was appalled by her technical ignorance. But as she listened to my explanations of what I'd been doing, and how it might relate to the job she was trying to fill, I realized she had the native intelligence to do her job properly, even if it meant filling in her knowledge gaps on the fly. She'll do well. She is, alas, an exception.
What a good, honest head hunter brings to the table is connections. He or she has a relationship with a lot of managers, and has studied their needs carefully. The last time I got a permanent job through a head hunter, she earned her commission by connecting me with an obscure startup I never would have found on my own. And she did a better job of pitching me to the company than I ever could have done on my own. I simply would not have gotten the job without her help.
It's worth mentioning that one of the other head hunters in her firm tried to steal her commission. He got hold of my contact info, called me up behind her back, and persuaded me to go to an interview with one of his clients. As you might expect with such an unprincipled asshole, he hadn't made the slightest attempt to confirm that I was anything like a match for the job, and the whole thing was a big waste of time. Unfortunately, this jerk is far more typical than his co-worker.
And more so now, then when this all happened. This was before there were sites like monster.com, that help you make your own connections. Which seems to have discouraged the more honest and capable recruiters, but not the nitwits who just spam managers with poorly chosen resumes.
"Seems to me that establishing a long-term relationship with fewer as opposed to screwing people over in volume would make good business sense to garner repeat business."
That makes good business sense for a recruiting firm. Unfortunately, headhunters aren't looking to stay in that job for a long time. They either want to hop from job to job increasing their salaries and collecting bonuses along the way and cash out early (Much like the people they are trying to place.), or they're occupational transients-people who are smart and capable enough to handle a white-collar job, but not ready to settle into a career.
And don't forget that jobhunters know that headhunters are scum, and probably hate them just as much as you do. Smart techies often ignore headhunters altogether, instead just focusing on personal networking and direct applications to bigger companies with recruiting departments.
Do yourself-and the industry-a favor. Don't feed those bastards, and maybe they'll all die off.
I have dealt with more headhunters and 'search firms' than I care to brag about. I talked to a really nice lady here and I was surprised at how professional she was. She took my resume and FIXED it (I mean, it actually looked good and it was accurate!) and introduced me to three wonderful companies. One offered me a position and I've been doing well since. My advice is to just keep looking at services until you find one that treats you like a person and not a dollar bill.
These guys made sure they knew who I was and what I wanted out of a job before placing me, and never submitted me for any job without asking first.
And they even found me a great contract-to-hire position in the summer of 2002 (still working there) in an absolute dead Oregon market.
I think they're only in Seattle/Portland but I'm not sure.
The most of the time the agents have more interest in the companies since they have to have a longer term relatioship with them than you.
NEWER trust 100% what they say.
Where can I find any paid for service agents?
I have been freelancing for 5 years now.
Lars
I recommend strong caution before you ever pay someone to assist you in your job search. For more information see: Jobscams.com
Evolution: love it or leave it
These people make money by placing people.
No shit. You think?
I worked with a firm called ENSICON a while back and they seemed to have both the employer
and the employee in mind. Their goal was to find a good match between us both. I had a good
experience with them.
TT
Carl Fox: "Stop going for the easy buck and start producing something with your life. Create, instead of living off the buying and selling of others."
Headhunters are in the business of matching buyers and sellers. Only in the most convoluted sense could they been seen as producing anything. I'm sure that there's a few good head hunters out there (mathematical probability can never reach zero), but every one I've come into contact with has had some of Gordon Gekko's DNA mixed in.
For most of us writing code is a creative activity (obviously I sit on the "art" side of the "is coding an art or science" debate) and headhunters seem like leeches to me. In some cases they are a necessary evil in the same way that Venture Capitalists are (sometimes you need access to a market), but forewarned is forearmed and shaking hands with one of these people is the first step in the Tango de la Muerte.
And that's all I have to say about that.
My experience has been with WaveStaff. I found them to provide quality people and more importantly --at least IMHO-- expect to work with the person they are placing for the long term. Therefore they only seek out individuals that they can have a long term relationship with.
Good recruiting firms require people with good character. I was a recruiter for a few years at a contingency firm where that was not the case. In fact, most of the firms in our industry attracted transient, fucked up people playing a hustler's game.
Our office was populated with addictive, poorly educated and borderline personalities... the spitting image of the firm's founder who badly needed a shrink himself.
Recruiters brought candidates in for interviews just to pump them for information in pursuit of other clients or candidates. The firm would recruit from client companies despite promises to the contrary - justifying it by changing the definition of "client" to suit their needs.
We were encouraged to pressure candidates into accepting positions and clients into meeting us regardless of fit. One hiring manager (dealing with a different firm) actually had to obtain a court order to get a recruiting firm to stop calling him.
Most of the people in the office didn't give a rats ass about their candidates or clients - what they wanted was the deal. The recruiters in our office lived off straight commission and too many spent the cash on drugs and other vices. And we were considered one of the better and more successful firms in our region.
Any business that offers $10,000+ commissions based on how many phone calls you can make is going to attract the kind of person whose going to piss off people who actually need to think to make a living.
And still - HR departments produced resumes so bad for hiring managers that satan could've attracted fees if he had the "right" candidates. HR may be ethical - but they're results suck.
Want some advice? If you're a candidate and your looking for a job deal with no more than two firms, stand up for your privacy and know who your dealing with. Be very polite, but don't allow yourself to be used.
If you're a client do your firm and yourself a favor and develop a personal network that frees you from having to use recruiters. Use a name brand retained search firm, or search consultancy when you need the job done right.
DISCLAIMER: The observations and conclusions are based on my personal experience. There are good firms and good people in the contingency industry --- just too few in relation to scumbags IMHO.
I was quoted in an article in Florida Today about bad recruiters. Typical "Recruiter Hell" story.
My God! It's full of Voids!
is, of course, an oxymoron of honest head hunters.
I find your ideas intriguing and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
It's spelled ENSCICON. They are out of Denver Co.
http://www.enscicon.com
TT
MicroTemps was great. I don't think they're around anymore. And really, I shouldn't speak for the entire company. The guy who handled finding me work was concerned about good matches for both the job seekers and the companies.
At the time I dealt with about 10 other companies and this guy at MicroTemps was the only one that wasn't a total sleazebag. In fact, after he had placed me, about 2 months later, he called me at work and said, "I'm going to be near your office in a couple of days. Want to have lunch?" We had lunch. He asked me how work was going, if I was happy, etc... Nice guy.
More recently, I've dealt with Robert Half Technology. In the future, I'd avoid them like the plague. After dealing with them, I realized I didn't want to go through spending another 6 months looking for a decent recruiter again and gave up on them altogether. Self employments is suiting me much better.
I have dealt with many recruitment firms and they all have a similar, slimy feel. The one great exception is The IT Route in Toronto. This firm was put together by ex-geeks that wanted some honest recruiters. I've dealt with them for several years. Sometimes I won't hear anything from them for months, simply because they don't have the right job for me. Then I'll get a call from them for a job that actually fits what I want. They know there is no point trying to just get people in the door if they aren't truly interested, or the right person for the job. This is the firm I've formed my relationship with.
--
Luck is just skill you didn't know you had.
They don't really want, in my opinion, to find the best job for you.
GJC
Gregory Casamento
## Chief Maintainer for GNUstep
The ones that are currently actively working for me seem to be honest (Though I've not gotten results yet...).
Most of the small-time players seem to be interested in helping you. Working with you. Trying to represent you in a good light, i.e. when you don't have an exact match for a position's requirements, they start looking for similar experience that can be translated to the position and try to sell the clients on that aspect of your skills. They also seem to be a little more careful of who they're talking with to place you- relatively stable companies that look like they may work out for you.
The major players, especially in this day and age, seem to be more interested in raking in what dough they can. They're more interested in taking your resume and unless you've got a dead-on match for the position- and unless they see all the little buzzwords that the HR or Management from the prospective employer flung at them, you're "filed away for future reference", most likely never to hear from them again, let alone in the first place. Worse, they often don't care if the employer in question is at all stable, so long as they think they might get their fees from them.
Am I cynical- OH, HELL, YES !
I have reasons to be. (Let's just say there's a certain larger player recruiter in the Dallas/Atlanta areas that managed to get me in the mess I'm in by NOT doing their due dilligence and placed me in a position with a company that did not have the funds to pay me more than a couple months' worth of my salary . This left me scrambling to look for yet another job, and the market having imploded completely from 9/11...)
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Actually, he was beaten to death in prison. From some unofficial website:
Jeff met his end on November 28, 1994, when he was viciously attacked by Christopher Scarver, a convicted killer on antispychotic medication, Scarver -- who claimed to be Christ because he was a carpenter and his mother's name was Mary -- killed the lethargic cannibal and former chocolate factory worker, along with another inmate, convicted wife killer Jesse Anderson, with a bar from a piece of exersize equiptment.
THE MAGIC WORDS ARE SQUEAMISH OSSIFRAGE
Would that be Matrix Resources, Inc.?
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
My first "corporate" job came from a headhunter in Chicago, who called me on the phone after I unsuccessfully applied for another job through their company (they had just filled the position, but were impressed by the interview, and actually kept my resume on file as promised.) His name was Lloyd.
;)
After an hour and a half on the phone with him, he put me in touch with the target company's representative. They were unimpressed with my phone skills, but hired me more or less on the strength of his recommendation.
In my first week, I met several other people he had hired for the company, all of whom were extremely well-regarded and doing well. It was clear that Lloyd was very well respected by both the employers and the hired employees. He did a lot of post-hiring followup with me personally, too. I ended up working there for a couple of years, and did well before leaving on my own for a better position elsewhere.
A few months after he placed me, the company he worked for was liquidated when the parent company decided to get out of the recruiting business. I got in touch with him, and found out that he had so many offers from other headhunter firms after the news broke that he was planning to take the summer off before starting work with a new firm. And that's exactly what he did.
So yes, there are headhunters out there who look out for their own interests AND those of the employee and employer, so that everyone wins. They're just few and far between, and possibly taking the summer off.
I've been waiting for this thread for quite a while, I believe "back in the day" I wrote about an experience I had on a jobs mailing list. Which compared my three most hated people in the world: Used Car Salesmen, Lawyers, and Recruiters. At that time, I was extensively using an email address which I had managed to keep away from spam - after that email Mr. Marshall Thurman decided he would act on behalf of all of his friends and add me to hundreds of mailing lists, junk mail, send threats, etc.
That was the turning point for me no longer using any sort of recruiter, in addition to getting tired of filling out the same (non-standardized) forms which ask for everything except your mothers-mothers-fathers-mothers-maiden name.
I reverted to old-school/proven methods of job hunting, drive around, bus around, bike around, walk around - and put in applications, attach a copy of my resume and pray someone gets back to me. Then, a week later, I make the dreaded "Have you looked at my application yet?" phone call... "We'll keep your application on file for six months" (yah, in the circular bin!), "I'm sorry, you're not quite the candidate we're looking for", "I'm sorry, I don't know why you would want to work here with your extensive experience", "No sir, we're not looking for management right now"
Since that time, I have begun extensive networking. Something that I know many people are lacking in knowledge or ability to do, the "upper %10" do extensive networking, hear about all those "preppy parties"? They are networking. Joke about people who always go out for drinks after a meeting/seminar? They are networking.
Since I am neither in the upper %10, nor do I go to a lot of meetings and seminars, I came up with my own project which I have gotten GREAT support for, one-on-one networking. People decided to use the same concept for finding-a-date, I use it for meeting people and expanding my networking groups. Think of it as the REAL WORLD version of Friendster. Sit down with people for 30 seconds, exchange cards, talk about what you do, and then move on to another person, come back to talk to the other ones if you're really interested in their services.
No more uncomfortable first introductions to mechanics, CPAs, IT professionals, lawyers, that cute girl, and small-business owners. Best of all - meet these people in a one-on-one environment with other people. Uncomfortable in large groups? Don't really care about meeting people, just want to get your name out? Or do you have a GREAT idea that will change the world but don't know where to start? That's why I'm changing things...
Right now, I'm starting to take this networking project online, check out itys.net for more information.
I cannot confirm nor deny the allegation or allegations you may or may not have just made
...is through one. The HR departments at most places don't put up ads, they go through agencies to pre-filter candidates.
"Appealing" jobs rarely happen, by the way- and every one of the ones I DID get were through recruiters, because the companies were medium sized and networking just didn't bring them ideal candidates.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
a year and a half ago these folks got me a job.
http://www.triadtechnology.com/
It started out as a 6 month contract gig and they helped me turn it into a full time job that has been *great*. They did everything the book said they should and worked well with the place I work now when it came time to convert
Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics. Those who live by the sword die by the arrow.
Depends on which calibre of friends you have...
Me, I have people like...
Nicolas Vining
John R. Hall
Mike Phillips
Dan Olson
All the above were star coders at Loki at one point in time or another- and some of them are developers for LGP. If I were developing a computer game or porting one, I'd be naming any one of the above people as the Director of R&D if I wasn't filling the position myself.
Suffice it to say, it's as much the circles you run in as it is anything else with regards to the suitability of a "friend" for something like a Director of R&D or CFO position.
Now, having said this, I will, to some extent agree with the actual sentiment- it's not likely that you're going to get into that sort of position, or any substantive one. Most people don't run in the right circles to begin with.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
The employees that headhunters supply on a contract basis have punative contracts that prevent them from going full time with you. I've seen penalties of 400 hours pay for attempting to go full time with a company. Only use these headhunters if you want employees more worried about the penalties in their contract then they are worried about doing a good job. The only sure way to avoid the penalty is to just quit and never go full time.
Take this for what it's worth: not related to IT, but it is related to a field that's currently experiencing the same demand for employees that IT was going through during the tech boom.
I used a headhunter looking for a job teaching English in Korea. Not related to IT, but that said, some of the risks were the same, I think. The possibility that you get placed somewhere that isn't compatible with you, the possibility that the headhunter is only in it for the finder's fee, the possibility that the headhunter gets paid out of your salary for the privilege of the placement (don't know how common that one is in the North American IT field...). There were plenty of people getting set up for jobs in Korea who were unhappy with their placements, and being halfway around the world can be an added problem.
The thing that was interesting about our situation was this. Anybody can be a headhunter. The finder's fees that a headhunter can command are sometimes a little pricey, and as such, if the company can find someone recommended from a reliable staff member or contact for a little less money, they might take it, especially since the risks of dealing with a lousy headhunter go both ways (company and potential employee).
What this means is that the onus is on the potential employee to properly network, which probably isn't all that different from the advice you'd get anyway.
In my situation, the headhunter was somebody I could trust (my cousin), who wasn't a traditional headhunter (hence the "anybody can be one" comment above) in that he just happened to know a lot of people looking for work, and who was also teaching himself so he couldn't devote his time to the headhunter's usual chores. But, after a few years of having successfully placed people and making an honest reputation for himself, things were looking pretty good, and he's pocketed close to thirty grand based solely on wise referrals.
Here was a guy who was plugged into the hidden job market (what they call the arena of companies looking for employees without wanting to advertise about the positions publically), and yet he wasn't a traditional headhunter. I don't know from experience, but I find it hard to imagine that there aren't similar people in the tech field...?
Of course, where the parallel breaks down is that teaching English in Korea is booming, while the IT field is decidedly not so, so companies might not be willing to take the risks to fill a position. That said, I just thought I'd throw it out there in case there were possibilities of stories of non-traditional headhunters that could apply.
--------
Bleah! Heh heh heh... BLEAH BLEAH!!! Ha ha ha ha...
While searching for a job, and having already submitted a resume to a company that a headhunter subsequently contacts you about, you of course let them know you already applied. A headhunter's response is, "Well you should have let us tailor your resume to the employer." Meaning, you should have let us lie for you on your resume so you stand a chance of getting an interview with all the other resumes that were submitted from lying headhunters.
If I didn't have the salesman that finds me work, I'd be out of a job, because our competitors would be out of work.
?...I think you mistyped, but if you didn't have the salesman and you'd be out of work because your competitors did have one.
My point is that the only reason I need a salesman, is because my competitors have one.
If none of us had one, clients would simply pick the best company for themselves, much like I'd pick the best digital camera when I'm shopping for one, rather than buy whatever I see advertised.
If noone at all had any salespeople, I think there would be less sales overall. If noone tried to tell the potential customer about the product, the potential customer might never know that the product exists or realize they can use it.
But then again I supppose if you think about it on a bigger scale, it wouldn't matter. You'd be earning less money, but you'd also be spending less for the same reason as the potential customer in the prior paragraph. The entire economy would just be proportionally scaled down.
I've been contracting for 14 years and although most recruiters are slime (I call them pimps) there do exist some notable exceptions.
I am curious why anybody uses headhunters? From what I've seen, the pimps simply match keywords and then shotgun over the usual resumes. It's still on the hiring manager to select candidates and then perform interviews.
For this service, the pimps take 1/3 to 1/2 my hourly rates. Where was the value add?
Anyway, there are some good recruiters who actually attempt to understand your needs and do more than a buzzword match. They still take 1/3 to 1/2 my hourly rates, but at least I don't mind having lunch w/them.
For some reason, the decent recruiters don't stay in the job, they move on to real sales. Pity.
I ran my own consulting business from 1981 to 1999, when I finally decided to take a full-time job. As I really wasn't in a hurry for a job and since my consulting business really took up most of my time, I thought I'd try a headhunter. The first two I tried were truly pointy-haired ... clueless, utterly clueless. I told them (in writing) specifically what my skills were and what I wanted in a job. Yet, time after time, they'd call me with "we have position here involving databases and E-Commerce! You can do that, can't you?" "How about this one ... managing an accounting department"?!!! Now I'm a software engineer specializing in industrial process control and data acquisition systems, and have absolutely no interest or background in E-Commerce, accounting, or databases. Didn't matter "You can do that, can't you?" They just wanted me to take a job so they could get their cut of my first year's salary. They placed great faith in their powers of persuasion, but fortunately I was able to resist.
One woman actually quit her job and went to another agency, and didn't even bother to tell me! At least she was very pretty, if not particularly good at her job. After a month of hearing nothing I called and found out she didn't work there anymore. They were very apologetic (I guess she had taken her current contact list with her, so they didn't even know who to call!) and assigned me to another agent.
This guy turned out to be great. I never actually met him in person, but he spent two hours on the phone interviewing me in excruciating detail. I didn't hear from him for a couple of weeks, and then he called me to let me know he had a possibility. I went in for the interview, was offered $5,000 more than I was asking, and took the job. I'm still there, because he found me an excellent match for my skills and experience. If I ever decide to look around for a new job, I'll sure call Hank up again. So, yes there are good headhunters out there, but they're about as easy to find as good jobs.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
I want some choices before rambling!
I did work with a headhunter where the relationship was equitable. His name was Dan Landers (DannyL Staffing)
For the hiring company - He managed to find a person with the required skills using appropriate Usenet forums (where the company wasn't looking)
For me - He was good at selling me to the company, calling periodically the hiring manager and using all his selling skills (which was a very weak point for me at the time)
He did a good job and got a commision for his sale. I'm happy for him (and I am aware that I ended up with a lower salary because there were headhunter fees involved)
I think it is important to place things in perspective when dealing with headhunters, the customer is the hiring company, the product is the person being hired. Especially for tech people who don't like selling, having somebody to "sell" you can be a very reasonable approach (of course you can get a better deal if you're technical and in addition you don't dislike selling and you do the sales work). Convincing a headhunter that you're a product worth selling is easier than getting hired
In summary, if you don't want to be disappointed, mostly you need to get your expectations right.
Two of the worst jobs I've ever had came through headhunters. Nowadays, their reputation is so sullied, I would expect most hiring managers to shun even "reputable" ones, because of bad prior experiences.
"Creativity is allowing ones self to make mistakes. Art is knowing which ones to keep" - Scott Adams
Nope. :-/
For what it's worth, the latest scumbag ones were from Modis. Much worse than (used) car salesmen, definitely; and I do have (alas) experience about dealing with both. I'll do my best to make sure I'll never use them, either as employer (when helping my managers in hiring) or as a job-hunter (if I need some "professional" help in future).
I have also been wondering why is it that shit floats, and evolution does not seem to kill off worst bottom-feeders, at least not in case of head hunting. It would seem to me, too, that small dose of integrity should be better long-term strategy, and that companies and job-seekers alike should appreciate any company/individual that has and shows integrity.
Once, when I was looking, a friend told me about a job opening. Since, I'd already been working with a head hunter, I called and told her about the direct contact (to avoid any possible misunderstandings or hurt feelings if she had also gotten that lead.)
We discussed the position. When she found out who I would be working for, she immediately said that he is fantastic, and that if I had the opportunity to work for him, I absolutely should take the job. She had already done a fair amount of work for me, but if I took her advice, she'd get nothing. Zip! Nada! She was really, really looking out for my benefit.
Well, I did take that job, and she was absolutely right. He's great, the company is wonderful, and I've been with them for 7 1/2 happy years, the longest I've ever stayed with one company.
So, thank you, Amy Moser!
I have to agree with you too, as a general rule. Where I've found exceptions is with larger firms. Where I live, I can think of at least 3 major firms off the top of my head that basically only hire I.T. people through consulting firms. They simply don't advertise the positions anyplace else, or take you seriously if you apply to them directly. I don't think that's a sensible policy, but that's how they conduct their employee searches - so if you'd like to work for them, you have to play by those rules.
Most often though, yes, the headhunters I've wasted my time working with were trying to place me in jobs that either had no real future, or were places not very serious about hiring in the first place.
I remember, as one example, a firm where after I went for an initial interview - was asked to "come back on Friday for a second interview". Only, when Friday rolled around, the manager I was supposed to talk with was gone for the day, and nobody else had any idea he scheduled me to come back in. When I did get ahold of him the next week, he didn't even seem apologetic. He just said "Oh, yeah... I forgot all about that. I was taking a day off. We'll have to find some other time to meet up." and wouldn't commit to a new date or time! I later found out they never did fill the opening at all. It was just an idea they were "tossing around", so they asked a few consulting firms to send people their way.
As Dicky Roberts would say "Fewer Agents, Less Money..."
heh...
From a hiring perspective I've dealt with many different types of headhunters and tried a few different methods to weed out the chaff. Being around NYC I've seen a pretty fair share of them. I honestly don't see much of a difference between the small ones and the large companies. I've learned that whether your experience is good or bad is entirely up to you.
----Always select interviews by the strength of the resume, never by what the headhunter tells you. They are selling something, and their belief is that the more people you see, the more likely you'll run across someone to hire. If you don't see what you are looking, just say no, end of discussion.
----Remember that a headhunter is a salesman. Many of them, like many salesmen, will try and manipulate you into purchasing their product, rather than letting the product sell by it's own merits.
----Unless you are looking to hire a lot of unskilled workers, never agree to having the headhunter set up a round of interviews at their office. I did this twice with two seperate agencies and both times at least a 3rd of the people I saw were bait and switch from the resumes they'd given me (Oh....Johnny Unix couldn't make it, here's Copier Bob).
----If you are new to the hiring process in your company make sure to check out if your company can and will deal with the headhunter's agency. Most companies have specific rules as to how much they'll pay to a headhunter and *when*. I generally will see from the first batch resumes if they have anyone who looks good. If they do, before any interviews commence, I send them off to HR to get validated. Only move forward when you have an email or something in writing from HR giving you the go ahead (the headhunter will call you 30 seconds after dealing with HR saying everything is okay regardless of the outcome). Keep in mind that some companies only use specific agencies.
----Be specific on what you are looking for, but don't give them too much. Every headhunter will want you to expound on what your team does, what you are looking for, what are the duties of the job, the corporate culture, related technologies, etc. These things are best left for the interview. Give the headhunter a job title and some keywords to look for. The less you give, the less room there is for the candidates to have been coached.
----Be specific on your allowable salary range. Like any good bargaining situation, it's a good idea to give him a lower number than you can spend, because he's certainly going try for the highest dollar amount he can get. Make sure you account for their fee if applicable. Don't see any candidates that go over your max.
----If at any time they are jerking you around, end the relationship. I've had headhunters send unwanted candidates down hoping I'd feel sorry for them, repeatedly giving me unrelated resumes, coaching, using the old bait and switch, etc. This is unacceptable and is a waste of your time. Believe me they won't stop when asked, they'll just move on to the next trick. If your company only uses specific agencies, work through your HR to complain about their tactics. When ending it, don't pussy foot around, you don't want another call.
I'm not sure how individuals working as head hunters compare to companies that place contractors/with option to hire, but I'm fresh out of school and looking for programming work--some friends suggested I look into "Tek Systems" (http://www.teksystems.com) and "Rober Half" (http://www.roberthalftechnology.com)...has anyone here used these companies before? Are they good? Any advice? I hear that alot of programmers get their start through contracting work with the option to hire, is this true?
I've worked with a great recruiter in NYC, who really takes an interest in matching you with a position and company for the long run. Of the many recruiters I've worked with, knowledgestaff.com had the most integrity.
Bill Rice, email techcomm at williamrice dot com.
I'm an engineer (Electrical), in Construction. I have had one (and only one) headhunter who was honest with me, and with my potential employers. I've dealt with him for years. (Only accepted 2 of the jobs, though.) That was Bob Bowers at Clearmont-Brannon in Atlanta. Actually, he and I have never met except by phone. Still, it was OK.
A headhunter is actually there to sift through all the thousands of resume's a real job gets. These are all mamagement (technical) and typically pay 80-120K. There are a lot of folks who would say anything to get one, so there's a lot of sifting to do.
These people are usually specialists to a particular industry. Bob is for construction P.E.'s. If you don't know what that means, then you aren't qualified. I am sure that there are other good ones that are for other industries, but I havn't met any of them. Like all job searches, the name of the game is networking. These folks network for a living. Usually, if they don't think you are being straight with them, then they won't give you anything.(If they refer some one to a client, and it turns out it was Bozo the Clown, they lose that client. They HATE losing clients!) They are paid by the companies, and they want repeat business. You do have to remember that a headhunter is working for the company that retained him, not for you. If you present yourself well to the hunter, and if what you claim is true, then you can make it past the first couple of hurdles.
Note, this will not replace you networking and looking for yourself. you are still more likely to get a job from someone who knows you, or knows of you, than from a stranger. That is especially true for the better paying and more responsible positions.
Google's no help. Can you explain the joke? Who's Alan Chase?
I worked with one terrific recruiter in New Hampshire. He placed me in a start-up in Boston. The job looked great, but almost everyone involved burned out and quit, and the company founder was a lunatic. (I saw him once modify code directly on the production server.)
I didn't last that much longer, and quit. When I called the headhunter he was terribly apologetic; he'd checked the place out personally, and thought it was a good place to work.
So he got me my next job, which was a great position, and for 10K a year more than I was looking for.
www.lucernesys.comHorizon: Calendar-based personal finance
Yes i have but as the employee. I just got placed with a company that is growing very fast starting in the high 50's and i could'nt be happier. This guy called me up around dinnertime last week and asked me if i was interested in this position because he had selected me and another guy from over 100 people who's resume he got from Dice. Now I'm working again. The Company is Global Infotech from Santa Clara, CA and i can gaurantee that they mean what they say about helping the Employee and the employer.
Sincerely, Czephyr
I would have to partially disagree, but agree too- I'm in finance, and there are certain of the higher level jobs where it's hard to find someone with the right combination of skills. The sales guys at my old company had to have a good left brain as well as right brain to be good. We used recruiters, but certainly not exclusively. A lot of guys came in through other sales guys. Which brings me back to your other point about knowing people- this is the absolute best way to find an employee (through someone you know and trust) and the absolute best way to find a job. There have been two or three big studies done that came back with numbers on how many of the available jobs were being "advertised" through what method. The results differed somewhat depending on the study, but the most optimistic found that the percentage of jobs offered through the web, classifieds and headhunters combined was something like less than 20%. In other words, you have to take the time to network to get access to most of the jobs that are out there. This is also a good idea because the jobs that are only being "advertised" via word of mouth are going to have much fewer people to compete against.
I have yet to have a good experience with one, or known anyone to have a good exp. with one. 99.9% don't know shit about the jobs they are hiring for! One recruiter kept asking me abou;t competitive analysis jobs - when I speficially told her I no longer wanted to do that. One got REALLY nasty with me when I turned down a job with Time Warner b/c they wouldn't be flexible with a wedding I needed to take time off to attend. Another didn't even know what HTML was when I was looking for a job in web dev.
My g/f just got run through a bizarre mess with a recruiter who flat out lied to her about a company making a pending offer to her over the freakin' Labor Day wknd. Well, there was no offer and the jackass went on vacation the very next week leaving her hanging out wondering if she was getting this ficticious offer.
I was talking w/ someone just this afternoon about these retards. None of them know what they're doing. They're either housewives or bitter women who pretend to want a job (see: real estate agents) or are idiots fresh out of college who only see a commission check.
Interestingly, a company called Paragon Recruiting located in Holland, MI. They are a top-notch company that I was happy with as a prospective employee and later used for finding employees in my new position.
Now some say that the commission ones are unethical - unless I don't know my brother well (doubtful), he does a very good job.
He could be the exception, I wouldn't know since I'm not in the business. But not all headhunters are that way.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it dissolve.
I found one, that for me, was a good fit. He's slick, but not too slick, **AND** he finds me work.
mmmmmmmmm, Work good...
There's a company called LunarTek in Victoria, BC, Canada, that does a great job. Lorrie Wright, the owner/operator, does a great job of finding people work, or finding work people, and she only asks for $10/hr for the service.
As a contract consultant who charges $70-$150 per hour depending on the gig, that is more than reasonable for me.
It's very refreshing in an environment where companies want to take half, and it seems to be doing quite well for her.
$0.02 (CDN)
Found this doing a google search:
Denver Associates is Searching for Technical Personnel for Service Companies - NYC
Denver Associates (www.denverassociates.com) is searching for qualified candidates to occupy technical positions with service companies in New York City. A network infrastructure manager is sought to implement NT- build network and hire staff. The salary for this position is 85k plus bonus and options. Also seeking support and communications manager with experience in desktop, LAN/WAN frame relay to oversee projects and assume a people managing function (non-technical). The salary for this position is 85k. Also seeking a Mac/PC specialist for a position with NY based ad agency to serve as a creative specialist. Necessary skills for position include, Windows NT 2000, (70% PC - 30% Mac), strong OS, Intel and Mac. The salary for this position is 60k+. NT administrator sought for NT/admin installation, and to configure, maintain and essentially take ownership of server- also act as primary support for web development team. The salary for this position is 75k. Email all resumes to Alan Chase, specifying the job you wish to apply for: achase@denverassociates.com. To view other technical positions visit www.denverassociates.com
I used a great headhunter in the Bay Area in 1995. I was in Southern California, trying to make a move to the Bay Area, and I was running out of money. This guy paid for hotels and rental cars out of his own pocket, and got in me in with a few different head hunters. I ended up getting a *great* job, not through him, and he was nothing but supportive and honest the whole way through. No hard feelings at the end. I kind of assumed all head hunters were like that. Sadly, despite the fact that they can take $30K from placing a good candidate in a good position without much work, the one's I've dealt with since largely act like I work for them. My favorite is when they insist I copy and paste my text resume into Word and mail it back to them. Sigh.
...it now lives in India and doesn't call me any more.
Is this a bad thing?
Hell, everyone knows good music when they hear it...
I object to that statement.
I've had mixed results. In the curretn economy most headhunters haven't done a thing for me. A few made an apparent effort but nothign panned out. Sapphire Technologies got me my current helpdesk gig (then a few months later laid off the recruiter who got me this job); on the opposite end of the spectrum Bernard, Haldane and Associates called me in for an interview and only then admitted that they were headhunters try to sell a service to me - and thne had the gall to suggest that maybe my parents could help pay when I suggested that $3000 was a bit steep for something most headhunters offer for free. Needless to say I was not amused.
I have a great relationship with my head-hunter. They know exactly what type of contract postions that I can go out on. And when there has been problems, it has been easy to work them out with the client.
No relationship is always perfect. Find out if the agency/head hunter tests the indivudual (some do). If you are looking in placement for your own company, find out what type of guarantee there is with the placement (for both the new employee and your company).
Most graphic artists use one of the two agenices that I'm aware of Aquent and Creative (?? - can't remember the rest of it right now)
Good luck
design is art - art is design
She's honest and ethical, and has dropped contracts with companies after hearing from ex-employees (who she had placed somewhere else) that the company was slimy, abusive, or otherwise not good for people.
Yup. It doesn't cost them anything to call a few fee-for-placement shops and get taken to lunch.
Well. So much to write. So little time tonight. I have read quite a bit that I would like to respond to. I will see how much I can get to before I start falling asleep.
Yes, the recruiting industry has a generally bad reputation. There are a LOT of scumbag recruiters out there. And I cannot tell you how much more difficult they make it for me to do my work.
I am a sole proprietor. I like my 'job'. I hope that I am a little different from the average headhunter. I generally work fairly low volume, and work to build solid long term relationships with clients. I also work to build long term relationships with candidates. I get to know people well, and the companies well, so that my placements are happy, and so that the companies are happy. Somewhere over 95% of my placements stay at their positions for 2 years or more. Is this normal? No. That is why I am still in business when many of my competitors have gone under. I also have the advantage that I was once a software developer, so I 'speak the language' a little better than most recruiters.
Fees: In my city, the standard fee is 20%. I only collect my fee when a candidate accepts and starts a position. In most cases the company pays me within 30 days of the start. I have a 6 month 100% replacment guarantee. I work hard to provide the best service for my fee. But this does not make me rich, especially with the economy being down for 2.5 years.
I bring value to a company. I find them the people they need, in the time frame they are looking for. In the long run I SAVE money for my clients.
I am on the phone all week long. I am contacting clients and candidates. Some may think it is easy to make a quick buck from a placement, but those people have no idea how much time and effort is spent long before a good job order arrives on my desk. I keep files on over 300 companies. Most of those companies I have never worked with, but may in the future.
My suggestions for a candidate looking for an 'honest' headhunter:
1) Ask friends (but not current coworkers) for the names of recruiters they like and trust.
2) If you have doubts about the person/agency then call first. If you cannot talk with a person, and if they do not return your call, take that as a big hint to look somewhere else.
3) Make sure that the company will not send your resume ANYWHERE without your explicit permission. You should get a detailed job description before agreeing to have your resume sent. In my case, I tell my candidates the company name after they have agreed to have their resume sent. (Hint, if you have already sent your resume to the company, and you did not recognize the job description, then part of the problem is of your own creation.)
4) Make sure the recruiter asks about (preferred) or listens to (acceptable) your own GOALS. The recruiter should be able to give you an idea about how realistic your goals are.
5) In better times I keep in touch with all my candidates. I generally work with 10-20 people at a time. Currently I am working with over 200 unemployed IT related people, so I do not have time to call all of them even every few weeks. At present I only call when I have jobs. I spend most of my time trying to find positions for at least SOME of the people I am working with.
6) As someone posted CORRECTLY, the absolute BEST way to find yourself a new position is through networking. A very high percentage of jobs are found that way.
For companies looking for an honest headhunter:
0) Dang. This is a hard one to quantify.
1) Look for value, not price. Look for a contract with guarantees. Ask for references from other satisfied customers of the recruiter.
2) Look for quality, not quantity. Make sure you have a clause in your contract that says you can cancel the contract and not accept resumes if the quality is poor. Limit the number of resumes that the recruiter is allows to send for each position.
3) Make sure the recruiter understands your industry and product.
Well, I hope this helps.
If anyone has specific questions, please ask.
I've actually been looking for work for some time and have contacted 77 recruiters. Of those, I've found five which I think are worth dealing with on a regular basis. That's about 1 in 15, so not a great rate.
I've been curious to know if there's any service out there which will let any Joe search for a recruiter and give that cat a rating or a review. That way, you wouldn't have to waste your time with the ones that are the losers.
My uncle works for an honest headhunting firm. http://www.tga-jobs.com/.
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed are not necessarily my own, as I've not yet had my medication today.
the reason for your "one" rule:
Many companies will put you in the "penalty box" (6 months is not uncommon) if they receive your resume from multiple recruiters/headhunters. Don't let it happen to you!
Just after the .Com bust, I found myself with a redundancy and no job. I emailed at least 50+ emails a week to headhunters about positions and if I was lucky got 2 or 3 actual replies and a single phone call. most of them didn't even send me a pre-written get lost email.
Of all the jobs I've had, headhunters got me about 1 or 2. The rest I found through my own means.
My preference would be to never deal with them again, they are rude, usually ignorant of the technologies they are looking for, and can't see beyond a list of acronyms requested.
So why do I deal with them still - here in Australia they practically have a monopoly on the job market. Maybe 1 in 200 jobs are not through a headhunter. Headhunters here are so desparate to get the jobs from clients that they have even resorted to ringing each other pretending to be people looking for work and then trying to steal the clients away once they find out who it is.
Scumbags. Derek.
The call always seems to start like this.
They will always not reveal the name of this "friend" out of reasons of confidentiality.
They smarm their greasy way all over you.
Seems like a long-lost friend.
Then I ask them "Who am I?" **Click**
They were just incremental dialing thru my hi-tech company trolling for business.
They make spammers look ethical. No, maybe this is going slightly over the top.
Have I ever used a honest head hunter? No.
Do I think such a person exists? Statistically I suppose there must be at least one. Then again, statistically I will never find that person.
I don't have such cynical views about other groups of humanity (with the notable exception of politicians and clergy).
Oh screw the cynicism.
It's time to take action.
Let's BURN all of them.
You didn't mention your region, but I know of several in the greater Boston area. My personal favorite was Winter, Wyman and Company (if you know Waltham, you'll pick it up). They also have offices in NYC and DC from what I gather.
I was job hunting in the summer of 2001, which was no easy time for a network admin with a history of Web businesses to be looking. My rep spent up to 2 hours at a time just playing "Yes/No" with openings, rapid fire with: Description, Responsibility, Skill Set, Yes or No. There were TONS of openings, even as times were getting tougher by the day.
You'll note that she screened every opportunity with me before sending my resume in on a bad fit. I went on like two or three interviews, all of which would have been good fits. I sent three associates to her, all of which got great leads, two of whom got terrific jobs.
I found that the best strategy was to have a stable of between 5 and 10 firms, checking in on one or two per day for a two week cycle. That way you're not just bugging the crap out of them, but they're not forgetting about you either.
My Winter Wyman rep left shortly after I got a job (on my own, no headhunter involved), to pursue a career in hospitality, I guess the dotcom crash hit everyone, but I'd still give the firm my business.
As I was interviewing for my current position, she was giving me negotiation tips and training, as well as helping me brush up my cover letter and resume. Because we had established a relationship, as you say. I had given her two good people, for whom she got paid, and she helped me out, just to keep me interested in the company for the next time I was job-seeking.
I like music
The King of Prussia, PA office of Robert Half Technology has worked very well for me. I am hard to place: high pay, goal-oriented, will not sit at a desk for months. Most of the consulting jobs around here are temp workers (filling a seat in the office) for the 3-month probationary period until they offer a full-time position. I have absolutely no desire to work full-time. Most companies use me as a troubleshooter to inject some technical expertise when they have problems. RHT has been able to find that type of work for me. Once I have worked with a client, they call ME again. RHT has been surprised by timesheets from me for clients they had not called for months, but the money is direct deposited that Friday.
I know several other people who work through them. RHT consistently finds a good match, making both the consultants and the customers happy. And yes, several of them are on the "work 3 months and we will hire you" plan.
It has been fun wacthing the name changes:
Robert Half International (Consulting division)
RHI Consulting
RHI Technology
Robert Half Technology (RHT)
They had 5 groups that specialized in: computers/technology, graphics/multimedia, business/management, secretarial/temp workers, and (forgotten). I have been too busy working through them to check the current setup.
---
As I said, most of the "consulting" firms around here are providing people for possible full-time work. I was keeping in touch with around 20 of them from 1998 into 2002, but they never placed me. I gave up when one company told me they were going to send 5 other resumes to the client first, then send mine if the client demanded real expertise. I have never proactively found a job; when a client needs my skill set, someone calls me.
I spend my life entertaining my brain.
"Being a bit more serious, the situation you describe is fine for low level, commodity labor. Try hiring your friends to be your CFO or Director of R&D and see how long your company survives."
Actually, it's another way around. All C's are hired by who you know and for a reason - on that level you have to know who you are dealing - not that you always do but that's another story. have a nice day.
Seems like every job listed around here needs a current security clearance...
"Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms,
I have dealt with one headhunter who I found to be both honest and good to deal with. She is Ann Marx. She used to deal primarily with VMS, but she has since branched out, but I would recommend her to anyone. She has a web site at www.amarx.com And no, I'm not shilling for her. Every time she's called me in the last eight years, I've told her that I'm quite happy to stay where I am.
back in 1999 during the big rush of IT stuff...
I caught wind that a pimp that had just placed me permanently at a MAJOR IT consulting firm only three months earlier was floating my resume, WITHOUT, my permission to current and potential clients as a "sample" of the types of candidates they deal with.. (fucker didn't even have the decency to white-out my name and contact info)
I received the tip-off phone call from a former manager that had seen this guy's pitch.
I scheduled a followup lunch meeting with my pimp in a local "white linen tablecloth" type of restaurant. I arrived 30 minutes before the meeting and tipped the owner of the restaurant a handsome sum to ignore the fact that I was going to cause a major scene very shortly. The pimp arrived and I played nice for about ten minutes. I handed the pimp a copy of the tip-off letter from my former manager and asked for an explanation. He briefly read it over and looked at me indignantly as if I had just over-stepped my bounds as the "candidate". The pimp proceeded to inform me that has every right to do anything that he wants once he receives a resume. I then asked him directly for a $5000 advertising fee for the use of my resume in his marketing campaign. I authored the document, so why shouldn't I receive compensation for the use of it in their marketing material. He leaned forward and told me to go fuck myself, I simply stood up and fucking hit him with my strongest right cross. I broke his nose, his glasses, and drove directly to his office for a walk-right-in meeting with his boss.
He was fired later that afternoon and I was cut a check for $2000.00(negotiatied) for the use of my resume in their advertising copy. My name and contact information were removed from their material.
I heard that they closed shop in mid 2000.
... I had a great employment agent. His name, if I recall correctly, was Jerry Maguire.
... is whot bwings os tugevza tsuzay.
I can always use yet another bunch to help me find another job in this benighted market. THANKS.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
If you sent (or posted) a jpeg of your resume instead of a word or ascii doc, then only the guys real handy with photoshop would be able to mess around with it. You could even watermark an instance of a resume by putting a large, faded gray, block-lettered indication of who it was being distributed to, slanted across the background.
- First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then ???, then profit.
It really depends on the level. I currently work for an executive level placement firm and by and large the work that they do is phenomenal (at least IMHO). I personally believe that at lower level positions the idea of outsourcing your hiring can be ridiculous. A headhunter should be hired when finding a person to fill the role is difficult.
Case in point the reason why the company I work only fills executive level positions is because it's ussually difficult for a Board of Directors to have the time, resources, or HR know-how to find the right talent for their CEO opening. Especially if the last one was canned because he left the company in a whole lot of trouble. It's important that the headhunter look for a particular person to fill that niche. Whether the company needs someone to come in a cut the fat, tighten things up, or keep the company on the straight and narrow, the point is at these higher level positions the job requirements become so focused and specialized that only a hand full of people can fill it. A headhunter has the resources, contacts, experience, and negotiating skills to find the few people that will fill these positions.
And it's this work experience, knowledge and contacts that you end up paying for, when you hire a headhunter. Agreed $30,000/hire may sound like a lot of money for someone who simply acts as an HR person and that's why I don't believe that you should use a head hunter for a lower level/easily filled position. Headhunters were designed to fill a specialty market and assist with the search for talent.
The firm I work is one of the few in the business that offers a warranty on the search work. If the person leaves a position within one year of hire, we redo the search for expenses only. And if that person leaves, we redo the search again (and it's happened). Not to mention that most agencies stop after shortlisting a group of candidates, our company is one of the few that liason with both sides until a candidate has been found. We don't just give you 4 people and their resumes. We sit through the final interview process, schedule everything and help draw up the contracts.
The point is that at lower level positions where thousands of people can fill the position hiring a headhunter is pointless. They shouldn't be used to cull a huge list of resumes, they should be used to generate a list of candidates when it appears as though none exist.
If you want a list of good, professional, search agencies try AESC
I've known quite a few honest ones...although the only one I've sought out repeatedly (during multiple seperate job hunts) has been Interactive Business Systems. (Officially prospects work with recruiters, who are more or less interchangeable. In reality I spent most of my time dealing with a client account manager named Denny Tomaska out of the Chicago-Suburban office, who is definitely one of a kind.)
I don't know what their corporate compensation structure is like, but I do know that these people have gone WAY above and beyond to try and make custom-fit-like-a-glove deals for me. And although my present day-job is not one I got through them, I'd still have no qualms whatsoever about reccomending them to anybody in the market.
Here in Oz they are ruthless, will tell all sorts of lies, put you forward for the MOST bizzaire jobs without your OK.
Seems the headhunter qualifications here are:
a) you don't know you know nothing about IT,
b) you know nothing about IT,
c) you know nothing about even common IT terms,
d) You believe that clients (The hirers) will take/hire any dickhead off the street and it's ok for forward any cv with even a single keyword match for a job
Your values are based on the follwing:
e) Java is the same as VB or "C" or Cobol
f) A microsoft or cisco qualification makes a candidate worth double! even if they cannot speak english.. are still alive/dead... or have no demonstrable communication skills
g) A microsoft or cisco qualification excuses you from any ability/need to think independantly
h) SQL is a kind of surfboard wax (I was informed of this only last week)
i) pretending to have ethics will be OK - in fact you should advertise this as it will make everyone believe you truly do have some...
j) never getting back to candidates is just fine
k) calling you up 5 years after you submit a resume and pretending it was yesterday is quite OK - after all you are in "the database" and the computer "knows"
l) its ok to offer you 1/4 of the pay you are on now as they still get the same finders fee...
m) having "database" in your CV instantly qualifies you to be a DBA, Data warehouse tech lead, Logical data modeller, Oracle, Sybase, Informix, DB2, Teradata, MS Acess and Foxpro coder... etc
n) sending 1 years free newspaper subscriptions, bottles of wine (bad wine), offering special eveings with the office girlz will make you leave the job the placed you in only 8 months ago for a better job will work....
Hmm... (looks at trade papers which each week shows developers going out of business)
Yup, I don't think that will be a problem... but it will probably all be "friend-of-a-friend" techniques to find people rather than looking at job-boards.
Even if this mysterious honest recruitment firm did exist, they'd still be taking a lot of money that could be going to your salary (they have to make a profit somehow), and they'll always be bad at matching you up with a company
Umm, headhunters are paid a percentage of your starting salary. It's in their best interest to negotiate this up for you, and they'll do their best to do so.
(Transatlantic vocabulary warning : for "CV" you may read "resume".)
One of the insights I got recently is that recruitment (esp these days) is not about finding the absolute best person for the job. It's about the trade-off between the investment in finding that person and the eventual quality of the eventual hire, with a bottom line requirement of not hiring bozo the clown.
If you post an ad on a jobs website (or in a newspaper or magazine or whatever), you're going to get inundated with candidates and have to invest a lot of time in filtering them. If you rely on word of mouth, you're going to get relatively few candidates and may not get the optimal number to choose from. If you use a headhunter, you should get to somewhere in between - a filtered selection of CVs to peruse. Is that worth 30% of the salary of the new hire ? That's up to you to decide.
The quality of the filtering process largely determines the value the headhunter adds - any bozo can put an advert up and collect names and addresses of people who vaguely match the requirement. If you get too many false positives - people who are clearly not right for the position - or too few suitable candidates in your filtered list, you're not getting value. If you get a shortlist of 10 people, filtered out of the 2000 applicants who responded, and they are all brilliant matches, you're getting good value.
In the boom days, a headhunter could claim to add value by their "network" of candidates who were otherwise not available - this usually translated to weasel techniques which people with ethics would not sink to - but it's not like there's a shortage of good techies just waiting for a decent job, these days....
Depending on how many people you're hiring, you could consider taking the function in-house. It's a simple calculation - x% times the expected salary times the number of candidates gives you a recruitment budget; if it exceeds the salary of a decent HR person, hire one. (Oh, wait, how do you recruit this HR person ? Through a headhunter ?).
Whatever you do, don't make the mistake of believing that your headhunter guy has your interests at stake - they're running a business. Many recruitment firms incentivise their employees based on commision; this leads to the kind of excesses other posts have mentioned. As long as you know and understand that this is the case, you can get value out of them.
It's all very well in practice, but it will never work in theory.
Met a guy who had just finished law school and went to an employment agency. He negotiated with them to cross out the client fee clause, write in "no fee" and sign and date it. When they tried to hit him up for a fee, it was the last straw to get the state Attorney General's office to run them out of the state.
I've been quite happy with the two people I've worked with from Tek Systems. I dealt with various members of their CT staff for about a year before I ever took a job with them, and once I did, I was very happy.
They didn't always find exactly what I was looking for, but they did keep offering me available positions to see if I was interested. And once I did start with them, they visited me IN PERSON, every week, wether it was to hand-deliver my paycheck, bring coffee for the group I worked with, or take me to lunch (which they did at least once a month). I thought this was an excellent addition to already good service.
The two people I spoke to there are the first I call when I need a new job.
Back in the mid 80's a company in Boston called A+ Temps. They had a temp shop on one side and permanent placement/long term on the other. They were great... Interviewed you as if they were hiring you, checked your references and prior employment, then shopped you around on whichever side of the house you wanted, or both if you wished. Of course, they were put out of business...
Like with some kind of DRM system built right into your handy version of office.
Palladium?
VLC Remote for iPhone and Android
Just like everything in this world there is the potential for things to fall in all three of these categories. It is also a matter of simple repeat business principles, I find myself hard pressed to point a finger at headhunters only if they burn a company time and again with the company ignorantly returning for another helping time and again. I have had encounters with all of the above, and it is not hard to tell.
Good: Listen to your wants and touch base with you on a regular basis pitching only positions that match what you have expressed interest in.
Bad: Like to mostly listen, make contact when they are hurting for a payout and need a quick placement. Mainly, they enjoy using the company card to have their lunches and dinners paid for.
Ugly: Dense enough to stop alpa and beta particles, one would think them functionally illiterate as they did not seem to read your resume or job postings. Communication with them is few and far inbetween and mostly pointless anyway. Should you be snowballed by them a few days in your new shop will quickly show whats up.
National vs Local should not be a factor either. Talk to the Headhunter, and frequently. Remember you should not be the ONLY one being interviewed and evaluated.
I've used Matrix Resources in the past (both as a resource and as a hiring manager). They've always been honest + have a focus on long term relationships rather than short term gain.
A head-hunter company which I have used for 3 jobs and have been quite happy with is QuantumResources. They are part of Aramark, which was listed in the top 100 favorite companies in the US by Forbes.
Nice people, and since they specialize in just tech/sci/engineering jobs, you don't get them trying to sell you on crap. Only problem is they only operate in a small number of states right now, mostly on the east coast and south eastern part of the country.
Still, I have had good experiences with them in the past and would recommend them.
www.quantumresources.net
-S
-Sternn
They got me exactly one lead. It was with a company whose requirements did not match my experience - a bad pairing. (I got a second interview anyway.)
I never even heard back from them after that - nothing. This was two years ago and i have since found a new job on my own. For all i know, they may still have my resume in their list of candidates.
They were definitely used-car salesmen. They were only interested in hot properties they could unload fast for a quick buck. I don't think they really had the best interests of the prospective employer or employee at heart.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
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The fake Gzip Christ isn't not user number ~0xA6CA7
he's the office champion at UT2003
I've worked with a great recruiter in the past. His name is Jason Lamsback, and he has placed a variety of people in past organizations I worked in. I found him to be one of the best recruiters I've worked with because he took to the time to understand about what I was looking for and the style of organization I was trying to build. What I liked about him was that he had an internal corporate recruiting/human resources background and a staffing agency background. He just contacted me recently because he is launching his own recruiting agency. I don't believe his company website is up and running yet, but I know his is currently generating clients (which is why he contacted me). His company name is Spinout Staffing, and his phone number is 760.318.3997. I plan to work with him again when our hiring picks up.
I can understand that many companies would rather pay a headhunter to do preliminary screening than do it themslves, but when the fees can easily reach five digits, is it really worth it?
If a company hires on average one new person per month, there's a good chance it would be cheaper to create and staff an internal HR position that does what the headhunters do.
When I was job hunting a few years ago (fortunately the last time I needed to do so) I had good luck with Cross Creek (xcreek.com) up here in Seattle.
They were very helpful and helped me land the position I currently have. Their website is pretty barren however, so I'm not sure if they are still in the recruiter/headhunter business or not. I'd drop them an email and find out if you were interested though.
--JT
just go look at http://www.huntrecruiting.com
I run around saying "Stupid Recruiter" all the time
Most recruiters are wan'a - be investment bankers or anything other than what they are, and have very little interest in the industry they are actually recruiting for.
I've done good work for allot of good people and some good work for some not so good people.
The issues with some people is that they are looking for jobs they are not qualified for and are so ego-centric that they want to blame some one for there short-comings.
I'd love to save the world
Adam Hunt
http://www.huntrecruiting.com
I'd Tell you all my secrets but I lie about my past
I've hit both kinds of head hunters...
The first I used was indeed a scummy fellow. Should have been tipped off when he said he got my name and number from a coworker of mine who was talking to him, but wouldn't tell me who. Sent me on a couple badly chosen interviews, and then lined me up with a good one.
The next time around, I was a lot more picky. Found several who didn't mind if I used several head hunters, dropped anyone who wanted an exclusive relationship with me. The most annoying ones were those who only accepted resumes in Word format, because they could then replace the head of your resume with their company logo and an anonymous candidate number so thata companies had to talk through the recruiter.
Some of them seem to find new companies simply by using Monster, but others have a "little black book" of companies that previous placements have liked and keep in touch with.
Anyway, one of them found me a awesome position, lined up interviews, and negotiated salary for me. Every 6 months or so he calls and checks how I'm doing, and asks if we have any openings coming up.
Overall, is's been a great, honest, professional relationship, and I haven't hesitated to refer him to other people looking for jobs. They are out there, you just have to look hard for them. The same way you have to look for those great, honest companies to work for...
I've had good luck with Huntrecruiting (www.huntrecruiting.com). They placed me in my next to last job with a large relocation package.
www.bleepyou.com
I talked to Vince, and he was cool with posting his info:
Vince Helmintoller
Venturi Partners
vhelmintoller@venturipartners.com
I was recruited by a headhunter working on retainer for the hiring company. It worked out quite well, and my headhunter was a nice guy. One odd thing... some weeks after I started (presumably after they finished the contract with the company that hired me) he called me about another available position in another city. A different experience with a different headhunter: It was while I was in school, on a student budget, supporting a young wife. The headhunter had an interview lined up for me in another city. As yellow alert flashed in the back of my mind. Who would pay for travel, I asked. (This was during the recession of the early 90's, before the bubble.) He said that they don't pay for that any more, I would have to pay my own. So I said let's do a phone interview first, and then I would travel if it went well. He gave me the name and number of the manager to call. I called the manager and he had *no idea* of who I was. Anyway, we had a nice chat but decided it was not a good match. After that experience, I was much more careful dealing with headhunters. Epilog: A few months later, I read in the paper that the company was interviewed by decided to close that location.
Here's another way I look at it. Hiring is typically cyclical (down in the cycle right now). You can
- demand more of the managers that are hiring by having them dive through the mess of resumes, maybe spend money on testing quite a few of them that seem to match, spend time interviewing them, etc..
- hire more staff in HR to handle that for the managers (either experts in each field, or you get a non-IT person weeding through IT resumes... we all know how successful that would be)
- use a headhunter
Option 3 keeps the company headcount down when the cycle is at the bottom, as we're seeing now. You might pay $10k per employee, spending $120k/yr, but you also might be paying your own workforce more than $120k in added hours, added staff, or loss of productivity to manage all of that.I don't have any empirical data to prove any of that... it's all just my guesses. But, given that the headhunting industry is as large as it is, I'd imagine that the numbers are fairly close.
Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
Control has its benefits, but I'll say no thanks to Palladium. I'm willing to have mangled versions of resumes floating around if the alternative is a police state controlled by Microsoft and chained irrevocably to their OS. What I'd prefer would be an increase in general usage of digital signatures.
- First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then ???, then profit.
Many of the headhunters I have spoken with were quite candid with me about both their compensation for filling a position, and their evaluation of my liklihood of fitting into the position. Most, in fact. This is possibly due to the higher-level nature of the positions I am asked about, but it was even true when I was still new to the field (before the real boom times).
It is possible that the requester has had a sour experience or two with the flesh-pimps of the boom times. If so, don't worry...they have scurried back to the darkened corners of the insurance telephone boiler-rooms from whence they came. Those remaining are probably seasoned professionals upon whom you may rely (with the usual caveats applied to any business dealing--do your homework, not just gossiping on Slashdot) to fulfill their obligations to their employer: filling the job with the candidate the employer finds most suitable.
In days like these, when many talented people are still looking for fulfilling employment, contacts are still the best way to find both people and opportunities. A good headhunter will, like a good IT worker, keep contacts open by building bridges and not burning them.
I've worked with a head hunter who establishes a relationship with organizations looking for people. They act as a recruiter and counselor for the company. This way when they attempt to place people they understand the culture of the company and can qualify applicants before they (the company) interviews them. I was placed through the head hunter once and now I'm their IT Consultant. They're a very good company located in Cleveland, Ohio.
For the first 9 years of my career, I dealt with several different headhunters/recruiters, none of which I was very happy with.
In 1995, I was approached by Pencom Systems, Inc., from their Boston office. Apparently, somebody at Fidelity Investments had attended one of my lectures, and thought I'd make a good addition to the team. They hired Pencom, to make it happen.
Since then, I've used Pencom as a career management service, with great success, and a number of quite equitable and educational employment experiences. They've got a web site, at http://www.pencom.com (no, I don't work for them, in any capacity)
This is about five years old, so the information may no longer be good, but a recruiter at a place called Edge Management up in White Plains was good for me. They did not put pressure on me and checked in on me for the first few months to see if I was happy.
I mean, I was a piece of meat. They said that they wanted to get the best job with the highest salary for me, and that they had incentive to do so because their commission was based on my salary. In fact, they were so worried that someone else might be able to manipulate me into accepting another offer, that in practice, they would pressure me to take the first job offer at whatever salary was offered.
A few would ask me to come in to meet them, and inevitably the office would be lined with drones in front of monitors, making call after call. They were telemarketers, I was product. The uspoken truth.
But, just when I had consigned them to the same category as real estate agents, I met Marielle. I couldn't believe she was a recruiter. We bacame friends right away. But a year or so later my dot com took a nose dive, and she offered to help me find new work.
This was what a recruiter was supposed to be all along. She was really a life and career counselor. She found jobs for me where I would be able to excell, and when I found one I really liked, she would talk to them, and I had the job. Like magic. And she got me the salaries that I had never realized I deserved.
It's growing up on spagettie out of a can, and wondering what the big deals is, and why people even bother, and then, one day, you move to the city and eat at a Northern Italian restraunt where they make fresh pasta, and you realize that this was what it was supposed to be all along, and that pasta does indeed have a reason for existance.
I was really sad when Marielle moved to LA after 9/11. But she now has her own recruiting/placement firm, Markinekt and works with people and companies on both coasts. And I really can't see myself working with anyone else. I'm never going back to those banks of evil telemarketers. If I can't work with her, I'd rather just do it myself with craigslist.
That's the one key. If your pimp ain't screwin' ya, he won't be embarassed to show you how much of a cut he's taking. You should also make sure you get to see the resume they're sending out to companies. I've had pimps rewrite my resume so poorly that I don't know how I ended up with the job. (They said I knew WAN and Seagate, which doesn't even make sense. The grammar was terrible, and it was for a tech writing job.) Also make sure that they get your permission to submit your resume to each company. Otherwise several firms may submit you for the same job, and the company won't want to get involved resolving the discrepancy.
You've got to realize that pimps are a necessary evil, and work with that knowledge. I.e. don't trust them, and take advantage of them, just as they take advantage of you. As you get to more senior positions, you'll be able to be selective in what pimps you work for, and have a better feel for the more honest ones.
Software sucks. Open Source sucks less.
You moderate this post flame bait, but you leave the grandparent there. What losers you are.
My experience is a resounding "NO" with the exception of small business. In small business, like a commercial might say, one cannot afford to be a retarded PHB. Too many times I've had to put up with decisions that were advised against, then done, then resulted in crap, then... surprise it was the ones advising against it that were laid off. This is equivelent to getting sick from cheese that is going bad, then cutting off the mold and throwing away the good parts! This attitude ONLY works when your business model is based upon a welfare state of guaranteed flow from things that have little to do with meeting customer requirements (i.e. you must find a customer rep/decision maker that is as clueless as you and ignore the actual end users) All of this works best with used-car salesmen running the show. Stupid people are easily confused and sold by used-car salesmen so again, make sure if you want to do this that your customer reps are stupid. NEVER interview the end users though... their input could only lead to you having to work and not absorb.
Absolutely! I have worked with, and referred many people to, in my 19 year career, to a gentlemen (here in NYC). He was definitely considered by all who used his services to be a career counselor. Unfortunately, with all the outsourcing and companies here in NYC reducing the commissions paid to placement firms, he no longer places IT personnel. He has opted to place attorneys and para-legals, feeling that these needs will never be outsourced!